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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 06:59:35 -0000 --=_MailMate_DBFF750C-C651-460E-BAFC-ABA2E5247D0B_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [As an aside] >> […] Users of E2EE communications expect trustworthy providers of >> secure >> implementations to respect and protect their right to whisper. > This last sentence seems weirdly hortatorial. I would stick to > the technical points. As a non-native speaker I had to look this up. I think that EKR means Horatian, [a form of satire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire#Horatian). —Olaf --=_MailMate_DBFF750C-C651-460E-BAFC-ABA2E5247D0B_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[As an aside]

[=E2=80=A6] Users of E2EE communicat= ions expect trustworthy providers of secure
implementations to respect and protect their right to whisper.


This last= sentence seems weirdly hortatorial. I would stick to
the technical points.

As a non-native speaker I had to look this up. I think that= EKR means Horatian, a form of satire.

=E2=80=94Olaf

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 07:52:39 -0000 --=_MailMate_2CBCDC99-F788-4063-A4DB-07FE65612334_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 19 Oct 2021, at 17:35, Mallory Knodel wrote: […] >> 2. You are, I think, missing the concept of tunnels. Tunnels have >> ends. >> Tunnels are used to carry trusted traffic over untrusted >> environments. >> Tunnels have "users" that are normally processes. Encryption on >> tunnels is >> hugely important to how the Internet works. Now, that may not be what >> you >> want to talk about in your document, and that's OK, but the feel >> (partly by >> you talking about end-to-end, and partly by the long preamble about >> BGP in >> 2.1) is that it is in scope. > > Wondering if Fred or Olaf could jump in? I think I would say tunnels > are indeed out of scope because it's transport encryption, but you're > right that we talk about BGP. It's only in an attempt to elucidate the > end point and e2e principle. > > Thoughts from my co-authors on squaring this circle? > I think you can reference tunnels in section 2.2 as a negative example. For instance (addition in italic) These end points may then be considered acceptable sub-identities provided that no path between the end identity and sub-identity is accessible by any third party. _For instance, the common VPN business model whereby a TLS or an IPsec tunnel terminates at a VPN service provider from which the traffic is then forwarded to its destination does not qualify_. —Olaf --=_MailMate_2CBCDC99-F788-4063-A4DB-07FE65612334_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 19 Oct 2021, at 17:35, Mallory Knodel wrote:

[=E2=80=A6]

2. You are, I think, missing the con= cept of tunnels. Tunnels have ends.
Tunnels are used to carry trusted traffic over untrusted environments.
Tunnels have "users" that are normally processes. Encryption on t= unnels is
hugely important to how the Internet works. Now, that may not be what you want to talk about in your document, and that's OK, but the feel (partly by=
you talking about end-to-end, and partly by the long preamble about BGP in<= br> 2.1) is that it is in scope.

Wondering if Fred or Olaf could jump in? I thi= nk I would say tunnels are indeed out of scope because it's transport encry= ption, but you're right that we talk about BGP. It's only in an attempt to = elucidate the end point and e2e principle.

Thoughts from my co-authors on squaring this circle?

I think you can reference tunnels in section 2.2 as a negat= ive example.

For instance (addition in italic)

These end points may then be considered acceptable sub-iden= tities provided that no path between the end identity and sub-identity is a= ccessible by any third party. For instance, the common VPN business mo= del whereby a TLS or an IPsec tunnel terminates at a VPN service provider f= rom which the traffic is then forwarded to its destination does not qualify= .

=E2=80=94Olaf

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 08:22:00 -0000 > On 19 Oct 2021, at 17:35, Mallory Knodel wrote: > > […] >>> 2. You are, I think, missing the concept of tunnels. Tunnels have >>> ends. >>> Tunnels are used to carry trusted traffic over untrusted >>> environments. >>> Tunnels have "users" that are normally processes. Encryption on >>> tunnels is >>> hugely important to how the Internet works. Now, that may not be >>> what you >>> want to talk about in your document, and that's OK, but the feel >>> (partly by >>> you talking about end-to-end, and partly by the long preamble about >>> BGP in >>> 2.1) is that it is in scope. >> >> Wondering if Fred or Olaf could jump in? I think I would say tunnels >> are indeed out of scope because it's transport encryption, but you're >> right that we talk about BGP. It's only in an attempt to elucidate >> the end point and e2e principle. >> >> Thoughts from my co-authors on squaring this circle? >> > > I think you can reference tunnels in section 2.2 as a negative > example. > > For instance (addition in italic) > > These end points may then be considered acceptable sub-identities > provided that no path between the end identity and sub-identity is > accessible by any third party. _For instance, the common VPN business > model whereby a TLS or an IPsec tunnel terminates at a VPN service > provider from which the traffic is then forwarded to its destination > does not qualify_. > Maybe add that the path between the VPN termination point and the final destination is accessible to third parties - that is the point I want to make. There is of course a tension in this example that the VPN service itself (or any other partial tunnel) does satisfy the expectations. —Olaf From nobody Thu Nov 4 05:41:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: e2ee@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: e2ee@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3113A1103 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 05:41:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ciT5F_Mo14B4 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 05:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F222F3A1102 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 05:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id h2so5950643ili.11 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 05:41:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Gb9z9DqSBAsphkE1zgxBg91bUOGY3YaH5XstIUiNOMY=; b=WS1hX4GXX7l1FRqgTrx7mkn2dYvyGAJ4Pf7qN4kHXQtqJcOzz2ynGeCwWdvj2j2eHV AanK2pGv4v/wRSgdwMn860ipYCSLzyC4hBIeV3ZZiUw1+plo9003cDnP2LvleAOkQdCR aFgozaQwtxHpvFjZl3gMRBtfSLCgD+JlWopyZvNCWHLGWqNEejQPnshPtSCklcR+cXhi q/zBAkZQxete+6EfM2FChCNVTt7wqKHD18+XpsGSjQ3rjRH5gyBsl7yQ6h4X+276YRvm YGPthF0x0to5Y9D2EtoOQvCUxdjaaPy9QNezQhWvdH2acOLvMCv72UsBcUgcIUuGCuVZ QH4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Gb9z9DqSBAsphkE1zgxBg91bUOGY3YaH5XstIUiNOMY=; b=T+iQ9WbG/AV4GzYmY9AdDxF1EmT16SqT6fbAxhuldqv66MK840MM4YNMug3CtR+xSL DxFJH3UkdqaA4cZZh9lAyiWm5x6QCsx8ENe0bXw2SD2mpiVxY8XNv7zxegocz4jvRrpf J5ChwUOAnkZJSQ9j61GsgOgO2MWEl11i2vJxjSOjIurfbtxb0rg2oiKIZdYf4kBAl4Ax QEKmqoYVA1lXWmZDVny3FEu8zjA+d3d76SDGQxn3EZPpHVlolU3k2xouqGb6DSfS2wmf oKDDz6SmErRcxKCBk0ET5y95EjnS1lQbaeRm9WmyLnetmneI8jpD7L+HzWsxGL8kS6Dy EQVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316Ss4v9RKrzf3gy8QcRaSckEwp75g+kHE0dzKm/i2hkCzMlQKI nBpzCEdAfsW7McaRdPW/OtB3nbzyWO3V1PTK+aR8Og== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwFyPoxbBwauEbpmY7ra10SfMTo/GaqVrthvsb5q0WLyROc4rZWwec6HxdnJ9Ieq0r+7ZSASo/GRxv+m/Z9geo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:20ea:: with SMTP id q10mr11487414ilv.10.1636029693497; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 05:41:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4bf8dcc0-ac1e-5a01-e5cb-926ca68d9149@cdt.org> <1C036277-10BF-434F-825B-3ACBE959E698@isoc.org> In-Reply-To: <1C036277-10BF-434F-825B-3ACBE959E698@isoc.org> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 05:40:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Olaf Kolkman Cc: e2ee@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b928f205cff5d8d8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [E2ee] [Secdispatch] Comments on draft-knodel-e2ee-definition-02 X-BeenThere: e2ee@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of the definition of end-to-end encryption." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 12:41:40 -0000 --000000000000b928f205cff5d8d8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:59 PM Olaf Kolkman wrote: > [As an aside] > > [=E2=80=A6] Users of E2EE communications expect trustworthy providers of = secure > implementations to respect and protect their right to whisper. > > > This last sentence seems weirdly hortatorial. I would stick to > the technical points. > > As a non-native speaker I had to look this up. I think that EKR means > Horatian, a form of satire > . > No. I mean as in "bortatory" "Marked by exhortation or strong urging." > =E2=80=94Olaf > -- > E2ee mailing list > E2ee@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e2ee > --000000000000b928f205cff5d8d8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 11:59 PM Olaf = Kolkman <kolkman@isoc.org> wr= ote:

[As an aside]

[=E2=80=A6= ] Users of E2EE communications expect trustworthy providers of secure
implementations to respect and protect their right to whisper.


=

This last sentence seems weirdly hortatorial. I would stick= to
the technical points.

As a non-native speaker I had to look this up. I think that= EKR means Horatian, a form of satire.=

No.=C2=A0 I mean=C2=A0 as in "= bortatory" "Marked by exhortation or strong urging."

=E2=80=94Olaf

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 13:27:46 -0000 --=_MailMate_515C5FA1-9F8C-46E3-BC42-582F65B32360_= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_9996DC10-B244-40C5-BBE9-B856D3F2B549_=" --=_MailMate_9996DC10-B244-40C5-BBE9-B856D3F2B549_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4 Nov 2021, at 13:40, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > This last sentence seems weirdly hortatorial. I would stick to >> the technical points. >> >> As a non-native speaker I had to look this up. I think that EKR means = Horatian,=C2=A0[a form of satire](). > > No.=C2=A0 I mean=C2=A0 as in "bortatory" "Marked by exhortation or stro= ng urging." Ha - that makes much more sense - because I didn=E2=80=99t really see any= satire in the sentence=E2=80=A6 (I would also have had to look up =E2=80=98bortatory=E2=80=99) =E2=80=94Olaf --=_MailMate_9996DC10-B244-40C5-BBE9-B856D3F2B549_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 4 Nov 2021, at 13:40, Eric Re= scorla wrote:

> This last sentence seems wei= rdly hortatorial. I would stick to
the technical points.

As a non-native speaker I had to look this up. I think that EKR means Hor= atian,=C2=A0[a form of satire](<https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com= ?d=3Dwikipedia.org&u=3DaHR0cHM6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvU2F0aX= JlI0hvcmF0aWFu&i=3DNjExZDIyY2Q4NzUzZDIwZjVkYWQ4NWE3&t=3DZ1M1NGNja= GUxZzVxK1pTRGVsUU9kVTBXbXJocmNUYjNzMk5tVXdtUkZRYz0=3D&h=3Da8ea9204ef0= 248eb8b1a9620488a8a92>).

No.=C2=A0 I mean=C2=A0 as in "bortatory= " "Marked by exhortation or strong urging."

Ha - that makes much more sense - because I = didn=E2=80=99t really see any satire in the sentence=E2=80=A6

(I would also have had to look up =E2=80=98bortatory=E2=80= =99)

=E2=80=94Olaf

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