From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 4 04:10:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 505E13A69A4; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 04:10:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D0EB3A69A4 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 04:10:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.489, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lCXMgnencB7G for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 04:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net [79.135.125.43]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25043A692C for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 04:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster&pop3*clerew#man&ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4896e39e.1903.25 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 12:10:22 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m74BAIH8026195 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 12:10:22 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:10:18 +0100 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080730151421.0847dc08@localhost> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:44:35 +0100, Frank Ellermann = wrote: > Charles Lindsey wrote: > >> What we would want to write is >> Archived-At: >> which is an IRI (using UTF-8, as always with IRIs) > > JFTR, s/as always with IRIs/as always with EAI/ > > EAI always uses UTF-8, while IRIs can be in any charset > determined by the context. And for EAI that context is > of course UTF-8. But in a KOI8-R document it's KOI8-R: Not quite. It the IRI appears in a document written in KO18-R, then: 1. You convert the KO18-R into unicode 2. You convert the unicode into UTF-8 3. You %-encode the UTF-8 4. Now you have the proper URI Of course if the context is headers within a UTF8SMTP message, then steps = 1 and 2 are redundant. >> which, upon conversion to a URI, would simply %-encode >> that '=F1'. > > For an , , or an . But your > example has the =F1 in the , and there you would > use IDNA(bis) rules to convert this into an URL: > > Archived-At: RFC 3987 says you MAY (possibily even SHOULD) convert to punycode in this = case, but you also MAY just %-encode it and hope whatever comes next knows = how to punycode it before doing any DNS lookup. OTOH, IRIs are not currently allowed in the 'http' scheme, so it would = need an explicit EAI extension (plus downgrade) to permit the Archived-At = header field to use IRIs. Likewise for any List-* header fields. Likewise for the 'mailto' scheme unless and until mailto-bis tells us = otherwise. I think we really need Martin to publish a mailto-bis draft = before we can proceed much further with List-* headers. > Mailto-bis IRIs on a KOI8-R page would be interesting: > > If they are transformed to UTF-8 (the first step in a > IRI to URI conversion) they might work with EAI UTF-8. The rule is clear that you first apply the 4 steps I gave above. before = you try interpreting them further. -- = Charles=A0H.=A0Lindsey=A0---------At=A0Home,=A0doing=A0my=A0own=A0thing----= -------------------- Tel:=A0+44=A0161=A0436=A06131=A0 = =A0=A0=A0Web:=A0http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email:=A0chl@clerew.man.ac.uk=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Snail:=A05=A0Clerewood=A0Ave= ,=A0CHEADLE,=A0SK8=A03JU,=A0U.K. PGP:=A02C15F1A9=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Fingerprint:=A073=A06D=A0C2=A051=A093=A0A0= =A001=A0E7=A065=A0E8=A064=A07E=A014=A0A4=A0AB=A0A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 4 07:23:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B60C28C2B6; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 07:23:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B56728C2B6 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 07:23:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.257 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.257 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.146, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tKui+ttX5bkE for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 07:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D0828C2AE for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 07:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KQ0yh-0001Y4-Hb for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:24:03 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:24:03 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:24:03 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 16:24:57 +0200 Organization: Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Cc: spf-discuss@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D.spf-eai X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org > Now at version -03, hopefully I found all old contributions (2006+2007), otherwise please scream. The main change in -03 is a long section about "explanations", the i18n vehicle in RFC 4408. For SPF-EAI this boils down to a reference to RFC 3987, plus a note that RFC UTF8SMTP does not modify the ASCII in RFC 2821bis wrt SPF. Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 4 08:20:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7929E3A6BAE; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1838228C22D for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 08:20:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.195 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.195 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.074, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fWx2wQ11+APe for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 08:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E742B3A68D0 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 08:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KQ1rO-0003xQ-IM for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:20:34 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:20:34 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:20:34 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 17:21:28 +0200 Organization: Lines: 71 Message-ID: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080730151421.0847dc08@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Charles Lindsey wrote: >> JFTR, s/as always with IRIs/as always with EAI/ [...] > 1. You convert the KO18-R into unicode > 2. You convert the unicode into UTF-8 > 3. You %-encode the UTF-8 > 4. Now you have the proper URI > Of course if the context is headers within a UTF8SMTP > message, then steps 1 and 2 are redundant. Yes, that's what I meant. And depending on the charset steps 1 and 2 could be combined, KOI8-R is an example where that works - it works for all SBCS with US-ASCII as propoer subset. >> you would use IDNA(bis) rules to convert this into >> an URL: >> Archived-At: > RFC 3987 says you MAY (possibily even SHOULD) convert > to punycode in this case, but you also MAY just %-encode > it and hope whatever comes next knows how to punycode it > before doing any DNS lookup. The goal is to get a for DNS in many relevant contexts: | A registered name intended for lookup in the DNS uses | the syntax defined in Section 3.5 of [RFC1034] and | Section 2.1 of [RFC1123]. [Digression, this remark in RFC 3986 kills hypothetical IDN TLDs again, until RFC 1123 section 2.1 is updated.] | Such a name consists of a sequence of domain labels | separated by ".", each domain label starting and ending | with an alphanumeric character and possibly also | containing "-" characters. Clearly no "percent" characters in a for DNS. That is as it should be, DNS won't do the punycode magic, legacy applications (i.e. almost all applications minus some modern browsers, xmpp, or similar) also won't do it, but RFC 3987 behind a barrage of MAY and SHOULD weasel words "does" it. Where it doesn't it cannot work, there is no archive.ma%c3%B1ana.com in DNS. Hopefully, nobody knows what this could be if it exists, I'd bet on all possible malicious purposes. But you are right - any serious 3987bis proposal has to fix this strange "MAY or SHOULD" to a simple "MUST" wrt DNS. Nobody is going to register %-encoded raw UTF-8 CNAMEs for all IDN A-labels. Only the opposition might try that where it sees a potential profit. > IRIs are not currently allowed in the 'http' scheme Why do you think that http-IRIs are not allowed ? My assumption is that all URI-schemes can be also used as IRI-schemes, in theory, down to 'mailto' as worst case. But some document formats, notably HTML 4, XHTML 1, and message/rfc822 header fields, allow only URIs. And no oddities with "percent" characters in a if this is about the registry known as DNS. Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 5 02:37:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97553A6A76; Tue, 5 Aug 2008 02:37:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2633A6A76 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2008 02:37:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.974 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.974 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.625, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3WEyfd+r4vnm for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2008 02:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620C53A67EC for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2008 02:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3&clerew$man*ac#uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 48981f8f.34aa.2c8 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:38:23 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m759cItE022876 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:38:20 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 10:38:18 +0100 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080730151421.0847dc08@localhost> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, 04 Aug 2008 16:21:28 +0100, Frank Ellermann = wrote: > Charles Lindsey wrote: > > But you are right - any serious 3987bis proposal has to > fix this strange "MAY or SHOULD" to a simple "MUST" wrt > DNS. Nobody is going to register %-encoded raw UTF-8 > CNAMEs for all IDN A-labels. Only the opposition might > try that where it sees a potential profit. Well draft-duerst-iri-bis-04.txt, published within the last day or so, has = changed nothing in that area AFAICS. > >> IRIs are not currently allowed in the 'http' scheme > > Why do you think that http-IRIs are not allowed ? Because it says so in RFC 3987, and still seems to say it in = draft-duerst-iri-bis-04.txt. > ... My > assumption is that all URI-schemes can be also used as > IRI-schemes, in theory, down to 'mailto' as worst case. Not unless the document defining the scheme says so, apparently. -- = Charles=A0H.=A0Lindsey=A0---------At=A0Home,=A0doing=A0my=A0own=A0thing----= -------------------- Tel:=A0+44=A0161=A0436=A06131=A0 = =A0=A0=A0Web:=A0http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email:=A0chl@clerew.man.ac.uk=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Snail:=A05=A0Clerewood=A0Ave= ,=A0CHEADLE,=A0SK8=A03JU,=A0U.K. PGP:=A02C15F1A9=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Fingerprint:=A073=A06D=A0C2=A051=A093=A0A0= =A001=A0E7=A065=A0E8=A064=A07E=A014=A0A4=A0AB=A0A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 8 05:41:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA1528C108; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 05:41:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FDD128C11B for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 05:41:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fr+xo0cQXS5y for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 05:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 723A728C119 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 05:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6693039E69D for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:41:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ySKezsuZeIk8 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:41:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.28.58.136] (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1632D39E699 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:41:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <489C3EF8.2070405@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:41:28 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14ubu (X11/20080724) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EAI WG Subject: [EAI] IETF72: Minutes uploaded to the IETF server X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org The first version of the minutes have been uploaded to the IETF webserver: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08jul/minutes/eai.txt Please review and comment! Harald _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 8 10:16:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89ED63A6C35; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:16:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622643A6848 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:16:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.197 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BP4ttQND4C6z for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97993A687E for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KRVZE-0002Dt-GZ for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:15:56 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:15:56 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:15:56 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 19:16:45 +0200 Organization: Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <489C3EF8.2070405@alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Subject: Re: [EAI] IETF72: Minutes uploaded to the IETF server X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Harald Alvestrand wrote: > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08jul/minutes/eai.txt > Please review and comment! (3) | An alternative was suggested: if 8 but characters | appear in the list- headers, just downgrade. Is "8 but" a shorthand for "UTF8-non-ascii" ? s/Lieba/Leiba/g (6) - might be troublesome.m He left the decision to the discretion of + might be troublesome. He left the decision to the discretion of (7) Interesting. ((How about a "who is who" for the EAI picture?)) xn----7sbbf3axpdif2a3duf.info. 86400 IN TXT "v=spf1 a mx ptr ~all" promises potential fun. Trying to get an account... Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 8 10:58:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041C93A6CD0; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:58:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13FDC3A6CD0 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:58:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aVB5L8jcUr3p for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.yitter.info (mail.yitter.info [208.86.224.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C6B03A6C87 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crankycanuck.ca (CPE001b63afe888-CM001adea9c5a6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [99.236.211.160]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA4002FE8FED for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 17:58:19 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 13:58:18 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: ima@ietf.org Message-ID: <20080808175817.GA59807@crankycanuck.ca> References: <489C3EF8.2070405@alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Subject: Re: [EAI] IETF72: Minutes uploaded to the IETF server X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, Aug 08, 2008 at 07:16:45PM +0200, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Is "8 but" a shorthand for "UTF8-non-ascii" ? Should have been "8 bit". My apologies for the typo (I was the scribe). > s/Lieba/Leiba/g Thank you, and apologies to Barry Leiba. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@commandprompt.com +1 503 667 4564 x104 http://www.commandprompt.com/ _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 8 11:12:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE403A6D83; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 11:12:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F75A3A6CF9 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 11:12:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.422 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.422 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.225, BAYES_50=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id go8Q4sW6jf7F for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 11:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999DB3A6D83 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2008 11:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KRWRa-0005mZ-Ca for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:12:06 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:12:06 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:12:06 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 20:12:58 +0200 Organization: Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <489C3EF8.2070405@alvestrand.no> <20080808175817.GA59807@crankycanuck.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Subject: Re: [EAI] IETF72: Minutes uploaded to the IETF server X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org QW5kcmV3IFN1bGxpdmFuIHdyb3RlOgogCj4gU2hvdWxkIGhhdmUgYmVlbiAiOCBiaXQiLgoKT2Yg Y291cnNlLCBwYXJzZXIgZXJyb3Igb24gbXkgc2lkZSwgaXQgbmVlZGVkCm1vcmUgY29mZmVlIHRv IHdvcmsgYXMgaXQgc2hvdWxkLgoKTm93IHRyeWluZyB0byBmaWd1cmUgb3V0IHdoYXQgSSBjYW4g ZG8gd2l0aArm0sHOy0DNydLP18HRLdDP3tTBLmluZm8gKGFwYXJ0IGZyb20gc2VlZGluZwpmdXR1 cmUgRUFJIGFkZHJlc3MgaGFydmVzdGVycy4uLiA7LSkKCiBGcmFuawoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KSU1BIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApJTUFAaWV0 Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pbWEK From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 12 07:24:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3719B3A6AB2; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:24:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7B63A6AB2 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:24:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s7pqBWXYio-w for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vgateway.libertyrms.info (vgateway.libertyrms.info [207.219.45.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725D23A6A87 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dev19.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.3.136]) by vgateway.libertyrms.info with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1KSumT-0007gk-U5 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:23:25 -0400 Message-ID: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:22:03 -0400 From: Ernie Dainow User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (X11/20080707) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ima@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: edainow@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: [EAI] Problems with empty group in downgraded headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org We've been doing some testing with Downgrade and encountered a case that does not work very well. We send email to an ASCII address at a non-utf8 server. The message is downgraded and delivered. The CC: field has a utf8 address that does not have an alternate address. The CC: address is downgraded according to the Downgrade spec, using an empty group ":;" to note that a utf8 address has been removed. This is specified in Section 5 of draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-08 as [ Display-name ] "<" Utf8-addr-spec ">" Rewrite as [ Display-name ] "Internationalized Address " Encoded-word " Removed:;" If the recipient of such a downgraded message attempts to Reply All, many email clients fail to send the message, complaining about an invalid email address. We tried four different email clients and all failed. (Three of the four were able to send a message if the group is not empty.) An empty group is specified as valid in RFC822, so technically speaking there is nothing wrong with the Downgrade spec. However, from a practical point of view, when used in the broader email world, this will lead to the perception that Downgrade is broken. What about using a comment instead of an empty group to provide the information about removed utf8 addresses? In my limited testing, comments seem to work much more reliably than empty groups. Ernie _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 12 08:10:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66EC73A6B88; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:10:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013E93A6B37 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:10:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vG9tDZAU4mLY for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2F63A6AE9 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p2) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1KSvVZ-000Fuf-6z; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:10:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:09:59 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Ernie Dainow , ima@ietf.org Message-ID: <91ED99424C004B55444CF602@[192.168.1.110]> In-Reply-To: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> References: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [EAI] Problems with empty group in downgraded headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --On Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:22 AM -0400 Ernie Dainow wrote: > We've been doing some testing with Downgrade and encountered a > case that does not work very well. > > We send email to an ASCII address at a non-utf8 server. The > message is downgraded and delivered. The CC: field has a utf8 > address that does not have an alternate address. The CC: > address is downgraded according to the Downgrade spec, using > an empty group ":;" to note that a utf8 address has been > removed. This is specified in Section 5 of > draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-08 as > [ Display-name ] "<" Utf8-addr-spec ">" > Rewrite as > [ Display-name ] "Internationalized Address " Encoded-word > " Removed:;" > > If the recipient of such a downgraded message attempts to > Reply All, many email clients fail to send the message, > complaining about an invalid email address. We tried four > different email clients and all failed. (Three of the four > were able to send a message if the group is not empty.) > > An empty group is specified as valid in RFC822, so technically > speaking there is nothing wrong with the Downgrade spec. > However, from a practical point of view, when used in the > broader email world, this will lead to the perception that > Downgrade is broken. > > What about using a comment instead of an empty group to > provide the information about removed utf8 addresses? In my > limited testing, comments seem to work much more reliably than > empty groups. Ernie, You (and we) are in a bit of a bind here. The empty group syntax has been around since at least 822, yet several popular MUAs don't recognize it. On the other hand, cc: (comment) with no other information present is simply not valid. 2822 says cc = "Cc:" address-list CRLF and I can't find anything in the tree leading down from "address-list" that would permit having no addresses in it. So, if I read things correctly, you are suggesting that we replace a valid construction that is not accepted by some broken MUAs with an invalid construction. While it is just my opinion, somehow I don't think so. More broadly, this is part of the "experiment" with Downgrade. If, in practice, it cannot work well enough to deliver a large percentage of messages without an unacceptable loss of information under normally-hostile conditions, then we need to reconsider either our criteria or whether it is worth the consider complexity that it adds to the i18n email environment. john _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 12 15:01:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570513A6BC2; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:01:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4773A67B4 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:01:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8eYIZhNLP9Ts for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vgateway.libertyrms.info (vgateway.libertyrms.info [207.219.45.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0ED3A677E for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dev19.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.3.136]) by vgateway.libertyrms.info with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1KT1w0-0006uA-E9; Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:01:44 -0400 Message-ID: <48A207F1.4080100@ca.afilias.info> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:00:17 -0400 From: Ernie Dainow User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (X11/20080707) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John C Klensin References: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> <91ED99424C004B55444CF602@[192.168.1.110]> In-Reply-To: <91ED99424C004B55444CF602@[192.168.1.110]> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: edainow@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Problems with empty group in downgraded headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org John C Klensin wrote: > So, if I read things correctly, you are suggesting that we replace a > valid construction that is not accepted by some broken MUAs with an > invalid construction. While it is just my opinion, somehow I don't > think so. If a comment won't work, are there any other ways to handle this? One option is to not downgrading this type of header. It avoids the problem altogether but loses the information about other recipients who received the email. I'm not sure how serious this problem will be; we tried mostly mainstream email clients. To put it another way, does anyone know of an email client that does handle empty groups? > More broadly, this is part of the "experiment" with Downgrade. If, in > practice, it cannot work well enough to deliver a large percentage of > messages without an unacceptable loss of information under > normally-hostile conditions, then we need to reconsider either our > criteria or whether it is worth the consider complexity that it adds > to the i18n email environment. > > john Ernie _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Aug 13 14:47:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40D63A6B05; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:47:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98FF3A6B05 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:47:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W2JqMFVh6fqA for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme-software.com (mail.episteme-software.com [75.145.176.241]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADAA3A688F for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [75.145.176.242] (127.0.0.1) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (EIMS X 3.3.7); Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:46:48 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: presnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <48A207F1.4080100@ca.afilias.info> References: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> <91ED99424C004B55444CF602@[192.168.1.110]> <48A207F1.4080100@ca.afilias.info> User-Agent: Eudora 6.2.5b1(Macintosh) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:46:56 -0500 To: Ernie Dainow From: Pete Resnick Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Problems with empty group in downgraded headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On 8/12/08 at 6:00 PM -0400, Ernie Dainow wrote: >I'm not sure how serious this problem will be; we tried mostly >mainstream email clients. To put it another way, does anyone know of >an email client that does handle empty groups? Eudora does just fine. Thunderbird does not, but I can pretty much assure that *that* bug will be fixed quickly. pr -- Pete Resnick Qualcomm Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Aug 13 15:14:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E2228C1A1; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:14:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3113A6D04 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:14:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.745, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VcNwnLo0DbRm for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme-software.com (www.episteme-software.com [75.145.176.241]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E9F3A69F9 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [75.145.176.242] (127.0.0.1) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (EIMS X 3.3.7); Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:14:04 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: presnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> <91ED99424C004B55444CF602@[192.168.1.110]> <48A207F1.4080100@ca.afilias.info> User-Agent: Eudora 6.2.5b1(Macintosh) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:14:12 -0500 To: Ernie Dainow From: Pete Resnick Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Problems with empty group in downgraded headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On 8/13/08 at 4:46 PM -0500, Pete Resnick wrote: >On 8/12/08 at 6:00 PM -0400, Ernie Dainow wrote: > >>I'm not sure how serious this problem will be; we tried mostly >>mainstream email clients. To put it another way, does anyone know >>of an email client that does handle empty groups? > >Eudora does just fine. Thunderbird does not, but I can pretty much >assure that *that* bug will be fixed quickly. By the way: For what it's worth, Eudora generates group syntax all of the time for Bcc'ed recipients and has done so for years. So it's quite worrisome that there are clients out there that handle this badly. (*grumble*) pr -- Pete Resnick Qualcomm Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 14 03:00:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B193A6C28; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:00:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7004D3A6B40 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:00:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.134 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.134 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.865, BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fvz6bKFiBokV for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net [79.135.125.43]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D1D3A68F3 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3&clerew*man*ac^uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 48a40236.48c7.2 for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:00:22 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m7E9pKfO025429 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 10:51:23 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 10:51:20 +0100 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> <91ED99424C004B55444CF602@[192.168.1.110]> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <91ED99424C004B55444CF602@[192.168.1.110]> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) Subject: Re: [EAI] Problems with empty group in downgraded headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:09:59 +0100, John C Klensin wrote: > Ernie, > > You (and we) are in a bit of a bind here. The empty group syntax has = > been around since at least 822, yet several popular MUAs don't recognize = > it. On the other hand, > cc: (comment) > with no other information present is simply not valid. 2822 says But you could put an empty group PLUS a comment. We are dealing with broken MUAs that fail to handle what is in fact = correct 2822 syntax. So presumably the MUA reports "message not sent = because of yadda yadda", where "yadda yadda" might or might not be a = helpful explanation of the problem. So what is then needed is something = that will enable the recipient (or at least a more clueful recipient) to = piece together manually some useful reply message that he can send. So a = comment that indicates what the CC was meant to contain might assist that = process. But that should not really be necessary given that there will also be a Dongraded: Cc: ... present, which should be enough for the recipient to figure out some = alternative way to send the Cc, or to decide that it (or the offending = part of it in the case of multiple Ccs) coule safely be omitted from the = reply. So all any comment would have to do is to say "(see Downgraded header)". -- = Charles=A0H.=A0Lindsey=A0---------At=A0Home,=A0doing=A0my=A0own=A0thing----= -------------------- Tel:=A0+44=A0161=A0436=A06131=A0 = =A0=A0=A0Web:=A0http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email:=A0chl@clerew.man.ac.uk=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Snail:=A05=A0Clerewood=A0Ave= ,=A0CHEADLE,=A0SK8=A03JU,=A0U.K. PGP:=A02C15F1A9=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Fingerprint:=A073=A06D=A0C2=A051=A093=A0A0= =A001=A0E7=A065=A0E8=A064=A07E=A014=A0A4=A0AB=A0A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 14 05:13:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACA83A6C64; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 05:13:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E33F3A6C64 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 05:13:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.973 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.973 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.626, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UTe4VwRvvOMJ for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 05:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-9.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-9.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.139]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4093A6C63 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 05:13:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:39619) by ppsw-9.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.159]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1KTbhG-0000LQ-Vk (Exim 4.70) (return-path ); Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:12:54 +0100 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1KTbhG-0001DY-Qb (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:12:54 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:12:54 +0100 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Pete Resnick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> <91ED99424C004B55444CF602@[192.168.1.110]> <48A207F1.4080100@ca.afilias.info> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (LSU 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Problems with empty group in downgraded headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, 13 Aug 2008, Pete Resnick wrote: > > By the way: For what it's worth, Eudora generates group syntax all of the time > for Bcc'ed recipients and has done so for years. So it's quite worrisome that > there are clients out there that handle this badly. Certain Microsoft MUAs try to generate an empty group for BCCed recipients but cock it up in an amazingly cretinous manner, e.g. To: Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ SOUTHEAST ICELAND: SOUTHWESTERLY 4 OR 5, OCCASIONALLY 6 LATER IN WEST. MODERATE. MAINLY FAIR. GOOD. _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 14 08:35:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F703A6D9E; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:35:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E79A3A6DE3 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:35:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uM-F4VfI6wP4 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vgateway.libertyrms.info (vgateway.libertyrms.info [207.219.45.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B31F3A6B2E for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dev19.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.3.136]) by vgateway.libertyrms.info with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1KTer8-0003Gq-Of; Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:35:18 -0400 Message-ID: <48A45043.8030709@ca.afilias.info> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:33:23 -0400 From: Ernie Dainow User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (X11/20080707) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Lindsey References: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> <91ED99424C004B55444CF602@[192.168.1.110]> In-Reply-To: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: edainow@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: IMA Subject: Re: [EAI] Problems with empty group in downgraded headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Charles Lindsey wrote: > On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:09:59 +0100, John C Klensin > wrote: > >> Ernie, >> >> You (and we) are in a bit of a bind here. The empty group syntax >> has been around since at least 822, yet several popular MUAs don't >> recognize it. On the other hand, >> cc: (comment) >> with no other information present is simply not valid. 2822 says > > But you could put an empty group PLUS a comment. > Good suggestion. I tried this with a few of the failing email clients. In one case, the client failed to send as before, complaining about invalid address. In the other case, the client did send the message but garbled the Cc: header. The recipient received the message with a Cc: containing comment-body . I'm concluding that this approach will not provide much better results than an empty header alone. > We are dealing with broken MUAs that fail to handle what is in fact > correct 2822 syntax. So presumably the MUA reports "message not sent > because of yadda yadda", where "yadda yadda" might or might not be a > helpful explanation of the problem. So what is then needed is > something that will enable the recipient (or at least a more clueful > recipient) to piece together manually some useful reply message that > he can send. So a comment that indicates what the CC was meant to > contain might assist that process. > > But that should not really be necessary given that there will also be a > Dongraded: Cc: ... > present, which should be enough for the recipient to figure out some > alternative way to send the Cc, or to decide that it (or the offending > part of it in the case of multiple Ccs) coule safely be omitted from > the reply. > > So all any comment would have to do is to say "(see Downgraded header)". Yes people on this mailing list and other literate email users can figure out the problem and just remove the empty group so that a Reply All can be sent. The vast majority of email users will have difficulty. Here is the latest count. As suggested by Andrew S., Mutt works with empty groups. However I encountered failures with two more email client. The count is now 2/8. If Thunderbird is corrected (as promised by Pete R.) we will be 3/8, still a failing grade. Here's a suggestion on how to downgrade these headers with comments instead of empty groups. When downgrading the To: header, remove all addresses that are utf8 only (i.e. without alternate address) and list them (encoded) in a single comment like (Following internationalized addresses removed from To: display ... ) If the To: header is not empty, append the comment, otherwise place the comment on hold. Repeat this for each of Cc:, Bcc: As soon as a non-empty header is encountered, append all comments that were put on hold. At least one of these headers must be non empty, as the Downgrade is only done when there is an ASCII email alternate address. Not only will this work more reliably than the empty group construct, I think the resulting email is more readable. All the removed addresses are in a single list at the end of the header instead of being scattered throughout the header embedded in an empty group for each removed address. Ernie _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 15 12:08:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 850803A69A2; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:08:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B163A69A2 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:08:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.02 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.02 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.835, BAYES_40=-0.185, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pywy3i5ITkuu for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from episteme-software.com (www.episteme-software.com [75.145.176.241]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128143A6780 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [75.145.176.242] (127.0.0.1) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (EIMS X 3.3.7); Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:07:45 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: presnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> References: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> User-Agent: Eudora 6.2.5b1(Macintosh) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:07:57 -0500 To: Ernie Dainow From: Pete Resnick Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Problems with empty group in downgraded headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On 8/12/08 at 10:22 AM -0400, Ernie Dainow wrote: > [ Display-name ] "<" Utf8-addr-spec ">" > Rewrite as > [ Display-name ] "Internationalized Address " Encoded-word " Removed:;" > >If the recipient of such a downgraded message attempts to Reply All, >many email clients fail to send the message, complaining about an >invalid email address. We tried four different email clients and all >failed. (Three of the four were able to send a message if the group >is not empty.) > >An empty group is specified as valid in RFC822, so technically >speaking there is nothing wrong with the Downgrade spec. However, >from a practical point of view, when used in the broader email >world, this will lead to the perception that Downgrade is broken. So, having thought about this a while, I think the right answer is to leave things exactly as they are. Though I still believe that the e-mail clients in question are broken, they're not as broken as I first thought. Let me use a non-EAI example to explain: Eudora currently uses the group construct when the sender types addresses into the Bcc: field but not into the To: field, or uses the group addressing features from the Address Book. So, I might receive the following message today: To: Joe's Friends:; From: Joe Blow Subject: testing This is a test. If I do a reply-all to this message, my client might generate the following: To: Joe Blow From: Pete Resnick Cc: Joe's Friends:; But actually there's something wrong with that. In the message I received, the To: field indicated that this message was sent to a group of people (whose addresses were not revealed) called "Joe's Friends". But if I send this reply, it is most certainly *not* going to a group of people called "Joe's Friends". I would claim that a reasonable client might say, "Hey, I don't know any group by the name of 'Joe's Friends'. Do you really want to send this message to an empty group?" and offer to remove it. I agree that it is terribly bad form for the client to say, "Invalid Cc" or "Cc must contain 'user@host'", but I do think it's reasonable to say, "You're trying to reply to someone that you can't send any mail to." In the case of EAI, I do think it's fair warning for a client to say, "You're trying to reply to someone that you can't send any mail to" and make the user go back and correct the recipients. EAI is, after all, an experimental protocol, and clients should get their act together to deal with cases that the user may try reply to addresses to which they cannot send. Let's not change the algorithm. pr -- Pete Resnick Qualcomm Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 15 13:53:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD683A6AFB; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:53:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6FC3A6AFB for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:53:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yeKTPjvp-tea for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vgateway.libertyrms.info (vgateway.libertyrms.info [207.219.45.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 423053A63D3 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jyee-vpn.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.7.126]) by vgateway.libertyrms.info with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1KU6IW-00021G-SY; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:53:24 -0400 Message-ID: <48A5ECB4.40405@ca.afilias.info> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:53:08 -0400 From: Joseph Yee User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pete Resnick References: <48A19C8B.2000703@ca.afilias.info> In-Reply-To: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jyee@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Problems with empty group in downgraded headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Pete Resnick wrote: > On 8/12/08 at 10:22 AM -0400, Ernie Dainow wrote: > >> [ Display-name ] "<" Utf8-addr-spec ">" >> Rewrite as >> [ Display-name ] "Internationalized Address " Encoded-word " >> Removed:;" >> >> If the recipient of such a downgraded message attempts to Reply All, >> many email clients fail to send the message, complaining about an >> invalid email address. We tried four different email clients and all >> failed. (Three of the four were able to send a message if the group is >> not empty.) >> >> An empty group is specified as valid in RFC822, so technically >> speaking there is nothing wrong with the Downgrade spec. However, from >> a practical point of view, when used in the broader email world, this >> will lead to the perception that Downgrade is broken. > > So, having thought about this a while, I think the right answer is to > leave things exactly as they are. Though I still believe that the e-mail > clients in question are broken, they're not as broken as I first > thought. Let me use a non-EAI example to explain: > > Eudora currently uses the group construct when the sender types > addresses into the Bcc: field but not into the To: field, or uses the > group addressing features from the Address Book. So, I might receive the > following message today: > > To: Joe's Friends:; > From: Joe Blow > Subject: testing > > This is a test. > > If I do a reply-all to this message, my client might generate the > following: > > To: Joe Blow > From: Pete Resnick > Cc: Joe's Friends:; > > But actually there's something wrong with that. In the message I > received, the To: field indicated that this message was sent to a group > of people (whose addresses were not revealed) called "Joe's Friends". > But if I send this reply, it is most certainly *not* going to a group of > people called "Joe's Friends". I would claim that a reasonable client > might say, "Hey, I don't know any group by the name of 'Joe's Friends'. > Do you really want to send this message to an empty group?" and offer to > remove it. I agree that it is terribly bad form for the client to say, > "Invalid Cc" or "Cc must contain 'user@host'", but I do think it's > reasonable to say, "You're trying to reply to someone that you can't > send any mail to." > > In the case of EAI, I do think it's fair warning for a client to say, > "You're trying to reply to someone that you can't send any mail to" and > make the user go back and correct the recipients. EAI is, after all, an > experimental protocol, and clients should get their act together to deal > with cases that the user may try reply to addresses to which they cannot > send. > > Let's not change the algorithm. > > pr Agreed to Pete that to keep the current mechanism. I have tested group and comment for various mail clients some time before, the results are same to what many had posted. I personally don't think it's bad. Many MUA fails with loud voice for attempting to send to empty group, sender will notice something. This is better than sending to black hole and get sender thinking 'my group' receive the message. When I first test it, I assume the downgrade doc's intention is to deliver the message with information of all recipients. I personally believe this is very valuable. I strongly recommend not to remove the information regards to IDN email address recipient(s). Combining comment to empty group is just appending string. We may just need a better message for the group name so that the recipient knows 'reply-all' can't reach all. Joseph _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 19 00:45:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AEA3A6A7F; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:45:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE413A6ABA for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:45:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.697, BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ixBC-3WS81fH for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0BE3A684F for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEAB239E39A for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:45:28 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BmW0twCBud8s for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:45:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.28.58.136] (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5309E39E1BA for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:45:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <48AA7A2C.8000908@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:45:48 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14ubu (X11/20080724) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EAI WG Subject: [EAI] Deciding what to do with IRIs in List-* headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Hello, at our Dublin meeting, the issue of how to handle headers with URLs that contain non-ASCII characters (that is, they are IRIs in an URI slot) came up - in the context of List-* headers. I see two possible ways forward: 1 - Don't address the issue at this time. Let such headers be turned into Downgraded-* headers, effectively hidden from the user's MUA. Add a comment that this will happen. This is the fastest path to getting -downgrade submitted. 2 - Add a new mechanism to -downgrade section 5 The mechanism would look something like this: ------------------------------------------- Section 5 new paragraph: IRI downgrading: If the header field has an element that is an IRI (that is, it follows the syntax described in RFC 3987 section 2.2, which allows for non-ASCII characters), it is processed with the algorithm specified in RFC 3987 section 3.1 for converting an IRI to an equvalent URI, [choosing the option of converting the hostname portion of an IRI using the IDNA encoding rather than percent encoding?] Section 5.1 new paragraph: o IRIs in header values List-Help List-Unsubscribe List-Subscribe List-Post List-Owner List-Archive For all these headers, the values between < > may be considered IRIs if they contain non-ASCII characters, and converted accordingly. ------------------------------------- What does the WG think? Harald _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 19 09:02:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D903A6A34; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:02:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C45E3A6A1C for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:02:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.889, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E4BrnYB1ShgI for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759603A6939 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:02:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=hardie@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1219161772; x=1250697772; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:to: from:subject:content-type:x-ironport-av; z=MIME-Version:=201.0|Message-ID:=20|In-Reply-To:=20<48AA7A2C.8000908@alvestr and.no>|References:=20<48AA7A2C.8000908@alvestrand.no> |Date:=20Tue,=2019=20Aug=202008=2009:02:15=20-0700|To:=20 Harald=20Alvestrand=20,=20EAI=20WG =20|From:=20Ted=20Hardie=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[EAI]=20Deciding=20what=20to=20do =20with=20IRIs=20in=20List-*=20headers|Content-Type:=20te xt/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"|X-IronPort-AV:=20E=3DM cAfee=3Bi=3D"5200,2160,5363"=3B=20a=3D"5828099"; bh=3+SACVoc/r4oZs49HCcAxZSzgljIYr6V832Qte1jINk=; b=iRl7EXeblsVAbI3znNjM+ZBh0xTvPAy+8so+eE+uqbq6APOaUIWwUNzz NfY1yXVEZOO+aZuj6kslMgcIjwAqC82FRQDY6V5P6fP98A626jR+7+cv0 L2FsvISZYE+2WoABrwgv/PVQnTk0FnA8ncGzvtOUlc4BuUT4wqRzsxA1x w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5200,2160,5363"; a="5828099" Received: from pdmz-ns-mip.qualcomm.com (HELO numenor.qualcomm.com) ([199.106.114.10]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 19 Aug 2008 09:02:17 -0700 Received: from msgtransport05.qualcomm.com (msgtransport05.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.150]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m7JG2HmD014417 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:02:17 -0700 Received: from nasanexhc02.na.qualcomm.com (nasanexhc02.na.qualcomm.com [172.30.33.23]) by msgtransport05.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m7JG2G26025098 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:02:16 -0700 Received: from [10.227.68.63] (10.227.68.63) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.33.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:02:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <48AA7A2C.8000908@alvestrand.no> References: <48AA7A2C.8000908@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:02:15 -0700 To: Harald Alvestrand , EAI WG From: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: [EAI] Deciding what to do with IRIs in List-* headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 12:45 AM -0700 8/19/08, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > >IRI downgrading: If the header field has an element that is an IRI (that >is, it follows the syntax described in RFC 3987 section 2.2, which >allows for non-ASCII characters), it is processed with the algorithm >specified in RFC 3987 section 3.1 for converting an IRI to an equvalent >URI, [choosing the option of converting the hostname portion of an IRI >using the IDNA encoding rather than percent encoding?] I note that if you are going to go down this route, then you should simply apply the process in RFC 3987 to all the elements in these header fields. At least if I read this text right: The above mapping from IRIs to URIs produces URIs fully conforming to [RFC3986]. The mapping is also an identity transformation for URIs and is idempotent; applying the mapping a second time will not change anything. Every URI is by definition an IRI. applying it to the ones which are URIs but not IRIs is harmless. That said, I would personally recommend Downgrade headers at this time. The reason for that goes back to Section 3.1., step one of which is: Generate a UCS character sequence from the original IRI format. Since the IRI docs presume that some of these may be on the side of a bus, it recognizes that you may have to first make a UCS character sequence *before* applying this transform. I suspect that folks following this will, however, start with Step 1c, presuming that they are dealing with UTF-8. They will be right so often that the times they're wrong will be unfixed essentially forever. To spend the second penny of my two cents, my preferred order for going beyond downgrade here would be: 1) Get the update IRI spec out with full community comment. 2) Get a mailto that is IRI-native out. 3) Adjust these headers to match the (new) IRI-native format, possibly by creating new headers and continuing to downgrade the old ones. If we don't do that, any later introduction of new syntax in here wil have 3 possible interpretations, which isn't pretty. Just my opinion, regards, Ted >Section 5.1 new paragraph: > >o IRIs in header values > > List-Help > List-Unsubscribe > List-Subscribe > List-Post > List-Owner > List-Archive > >For all these headers, the values between < > may be considered IRIs if >they contain non-ASCII characters, and converted accordingly. >------------------------------------- > >What does the WG think? > > Harald > >_______________________________________________ >IMA mailing list >IMA@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 19 11:41:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5895C28C20F; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:41:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A2028C212 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:41:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.526 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.526 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.674, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, SARE_HTML_URI_LHOST30=1.666, URIBL_GREY=0.25, URI_NOVOWEL=1.62] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SCGVzGhxwbGU for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631A728C16D for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KVW8d-00086d-P1 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:41:03 +0000 Received: from 212.82.251.246 ([212.82.251.246]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:41:03 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by 212.82.251.246 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:41:03 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:42:44 +0200 Organization: Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <48AA7A2C.8000908@alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.82.251.246 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1933 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1933 Subject: Re: [EAI] Deciding what to do with IRIs in List-* headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Harald Alvestrand wrote: > [choosing the option of converting the hostname portion of > an IRI using the IDNA encoding rather than percent encoding?] ! A percent-encoded is useless, the burden to figure out DNS A-labels would be still on the wrong (= weaker) side. And we are not going to mandate "get a percent-encoded UTF-8 CNAME for each A-label (just in case, and because DNS allows it)". I think that is an issue in RFC 3986 + 3987, they try to thell their story as far as possible independent of DNS. But DNS could in theory do what I've done in http://hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz.googlepages.com/IDN-XML-test.htm In that case killing the W3C validator, Martin and I disagree whose fault that is, I say 3987, he says validator, therefore I reported it as validator bug (adding my doubts as comment). Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Aug 19 13:22:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 963B23A684F; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:22:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2491F3A684F for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:22:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.798, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KtpteFAAQ03d for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF863A67C1 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0401139E39C; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:22:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7yiLmR5GlYNk; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:22:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.54] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 851D839E1BA; Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:22:10 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <48AB2B86.5060605@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:22:30 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (X11/20080724) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Hardie References: <48AA7A2C.8000908@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: Cc: EAI WG Subject: Re: [EAI] Deciding what to do with IRIs in List-* headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Ted Hardie skrev: > At 12:45 AM -0700 8/19/08, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > >> IRI downgrading: If the header field has an element that is an IRI (that >> is, it follows the syntax described in RFC 3987 section 2.2, which >> allows for non-ASCII characters), it is processed with the algorithm >> specified in RFC 3987 section 3.1 for converting an IRI to an equvalent >> URI, [choosing the option of converting the hostname portion of an IRI >> using the IDNA encoding rather than percent encoding?] >> > > > I note that if you are going to go down this route, then you should > simply apply the process in RFC 3987 to all the elements in these > header fields. At least if I read this text right: > > The above mapping from IRIs to URIs produces URIs fully conforming to > [RFC3986]. The mapping is also an identity transformation for URIs > and is idempotent; applying the mapping a second time will not > change anything. Every URI is by definition an IRI. > > applying it to the ones which are URIs but not IRIs is harmless. > should be no problem in doing that, not doing it is just an optimized way of implementing an operation that causes no change.... > That said, I would personally recommend Downgrade headers at > this time. The reason for that goes back to Section 3.1., step one > of which is: Generate a UCS character sequence from the original IRI format. > Since the IRI docs presume that some of these may be on the side > of a bus, it recognizes that you may have to first make a UCS character > sequence *before* applying this transform. I suspect that folks > following this will, however, start with Step 1c, presuming that > they are dealing with UTF-8. They will be right so often that the > times they're wrong will be unfixed essentially forever. > Any time they're wrong, it's also a protocol violation; just as we don't propose extensions to deal with 8859-1 text in Subject:, we may want to overlook this one too..... > To spend the second penny of my two cents, my preferred order > for going beyond downgrade here would be: > > 1) Get the update IRI spec out with full community comment. > > 2) Get a mailto that is IRI-native out. > > 3) Adjust these headers to match the (new) IRI-native format, > possibly by creating new headers and continuing to downgrade > the old ones. If we don't do that, any later introduction of new > syntax in here wil have 3 possible interpretations, which isn't > pretty. actually the List-* header spec doesn't limit itself in any way to mailto: - it is allowed to use any URI, and we can't treat a mailto: IRI differently from any other IRI. By the time we can have a new mailto: spec out, I'm afraid that there will already be an installed base that doesn't do IRI->URI downconversion on these headers, and we may have UAs that expect the Downgraded-List-* headers. That said, I am in two minds (at least) about this, and the promise of a new IRI spec is an excellent excuse to dither until the next revision. When is that expected? Harald _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Aug 20 01:47:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 342743A6ADB; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3363A6ADB for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:47:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KKJ7f6NzS+rX for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from send01.jprs.co.jp (send01.jprs.co.jp [202.11.17.113]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29EFA3A6920 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from send01.jprs.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by send01.jprs.co.jp (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with SMTP id m7K8knho014542; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:47:02 +0900 (JST) Received: (from localhost [172.18.4.53]) by send01.jprs.co.jp (SMSSMTP 4.0.4.64) with SMTP id M2008082017470126222 ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:47:01 +0900 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:47:01 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20080820.174701.226800747.fujiwara@jprs.co.jp> To: harald@alvestrand.no From: fujiwara@jprs.co.jp In-Reply-To: <48AA7A2C.8000908@alvestrand.no> <48AB2B86.5060605@alvestrand.no> References: <48AA7A2C.8000908@alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.1 on Emacs 22.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Deciding what to do with IRIs in List-* headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org > From: Harald Alvestrand > at our Dublin meeting, the issue of how to handle headers with URLs that contain non-ASCII characters (that is, they are IRIs in an URI slot) came up - in the context of List-* headers. > > I see two possible ways forward: > > 1 - Don't address the issue at this time. Let such headers be turned into Downgraded-* headers, effectively hidden from the user's MUA. Add a comment that this will happen. This is the fastest path to getting -downgrade submitted. > > 2 - Add a new mechanism to -downgrade section 5 Does draft-ietf-eai-utf8headers-12 allow IRIs in List-* header fields ? If "no", option 1 If "yes", option 2 > From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand > By the time we can have a new mailto: spec out, I'm afraid that there will already be an installed base that doesn't do IRI->URI downconversion on these headers, and we may have UAs that expect the Downgraded-List-* headers. Current EAI document sets are in EXPERIMENTAL, there are no such problems, I think. Regards, -- Kazunori Fujiwara, JPRS _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Aug 20 02:29:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B443A6B74; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:29:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234DA3A6B74 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:29:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.091, BAYES_50=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rAIU3bGpQadi for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85AF63A69E4 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster^pop3*clerew$man*ac^uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 48abe2e6.1f72.124e for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:24:54 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m7K9OrKp029970 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:24:54 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:24:53 +0100 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <48AA7A2C.8000908@alvestrand.no> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <48AA7A2C.8000908@alvestrand.no> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) Subject: Re: [EAI] Deciding what to do with IRIs in List-* headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:45:48 +0100, Harald Alvestrand = wrote: > I see two possible ways forward: > > 1 - Don't address the issue at this time. Let such headers be turned = > into Downgraded-* headers, effectively hidden from the user's MUA. Add a = > comment that this will happen. This is the fastest path to getting = > -downgrade submitted. > > 2 - Add a new mechanism to -downgrade section 5 Hold on! The first step is to decide whether and what usage of UTF-8 in = List-* headers is to be permitted, and what such headers might _mean_. = Only then would it be sensible to discuss how to downgrade them (since the = downgrade mechanism might depend on the answer to the first part). So if we want to take a 'wait and see' approach whilst IRI-bis and = mailto-bis are fixed, then the best method would be not to produce any EAI = document for List-* headers at all (note, then when such a document _did_ = get produced, it would specify both the extended headers and how to = downgrade them at the same time). Having said that, I would be surprised if the eventual document did not = include downgrading IRIs to URIs as part of its mechanisms. In the meantime, a holding statement in our downgrade draft wold not be = out of order. -- = Charles=A0H.=A0Lindsey=A0---------At=A0Home,=A0doing=A0my=A0own=A0thing----= -------------------- Tel:=A0+44=A0161=A0436=A06131=A0 = =A0=A0=A0Web:=A0http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email:=A0chl@clerew.man.ac.uk=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Snail:=A05=A0Clerewood=A0Ave= ,=A0CHEADLE,=A0SK8=A03JU,=A0U.K. PGP:=A02C15F1A9=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Fingerprint:=A073=A06D=A0C2=A051=A093=A0A0= =A001=A0E7=A065=A0E8=A064=A07E=A014=A0A4=A0AB=A0A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 21 00:07:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279F43A6AFD; Thu, 21 Aug 2008 00:07:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253A83A69FE for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:50:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.093 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.093 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.095, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8t7KZaqBEjyQ for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com (ti-out-0910.google.com [209.85.142.191]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDA93A6822 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ti-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id a6so603180tib.25 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:50:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=2RxxtSxd/oGrmaXSES4EijXV/Pyiu0mrcOumgEOgrZQ=; b=mco08wIgs2IN2xIA/baqG3kvjEKB/e4HZRv4upYXvt/GS/M3urGARYvPWHhW6vV3RK 3aCJzdfdVD4vq3weSfLBRXRtmJ3LQ3PaqCpHHua9KC5zkIJXRrRNet7eZqBLxblksDPB XdUilDSEDkci2ihVNNLXlAPedjgDhAs7UYpsA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=jLVzLk1FFV1IMP/9C7giZwX/qAdIkOvdi6sE/vXGo2k2X+Q57vqmJ74GhB3IsgfaVQ jVfh4yx3gn7b0uV1hWvIfqo1EcDbchofJzEni9ixgYjOHFHGWie6FDoexaphboh2xXLI i/WC5w9svlSKQTWA+b/g6hzlW+jom9e4eUWMw= Received: by 10.110.57.6 with SMTP id f6mr1096106tia.38.1219301447372; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.110.61.13 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2a6f7a9e0808202350p1a82baen45903321baedc99b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:50:47 +0500 From: "arfan mansoor" To: IMA@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 00:07:52 -0700 Subject: [EAI] help X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1845410613==" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --===============1845410613== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_114820_5082953.1219301447376" ------=_Part_114820_5082953.1219301447376 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello, i am new to list. We are doing work for Urdu (Pakistan language) EAI. I want to know progress about other languages, has any one implemented this successfully and at what level this implementation is possible? Regards Arfan Mansoor ------=_Part_114820_5082953.1219301447376 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

Hello, i am new to list. We are doing work for Urdu (Pakistan language) EAI. I want to know progress about other languages, has any one implemented this successfully and at what level this implementation is possible?

Regards
Arfan Mansoor


 
------=_Part_114820_5082953.1219301447376-- --===============1845410613== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --===============1845410613==-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 21 00:17:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2373A68E8; Thu, 21 Aug 2008 00:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9603A68E8 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2008 00:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.689 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XvftFW9+GKRg for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2008 00:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cnnic.cn (smtp.cnnic.cn [159.226.7.146]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 060413A6822 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2008 00:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (eyou send program); Thu, 21 Aug 2008 15:14:01 +0800 Message-ID: <419302841.27807@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO yaojk) (218.241.111.35) by 159.226.7.146 with SMTP; Thu, 21 Aug 2008 15:14:01 +0800 Message-ID: <0a7a01c9035d$7948dd30$236ff1da@yaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "arfan mansoor" , References: <419302486.11246@cnnic.cn> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 15:13:55 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Subject: Re: [EAI] help (eai implementation) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --===============1687660154==-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 21 19:20:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D2953A6A79; Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:20:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8A63A6C0A for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:17:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.11 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VdP7I+Yrb3jW for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB983A67F1 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m7M2HBOu006075 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:17:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2a68_6db00282_6ff0_11dd_8e6a_0014221fa3c9; Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:17:11 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:35526) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 22 Aug 2008 11:10:39 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080822104949.03efacf0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:55:09 +0900 To: "YAO Jiankang" , "arfan mansoor" , From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <419302841.27807@cnnic.cn> References: <419302486.11246@cnnic.cn> <419302841.27807@cnnic.cn> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] help (eai implementation) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1215721860==" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --===============1215721860== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please note that EAI itself is completely language-independent. An MUA (mail user agent, client side) that supports MUA can handle mail addresses and other data in any script that can be encoded with Unicode. Same for an MTA (mail transfer agent, server side). What you need on the MUA side to truly support your language are two things independent of EAI: - The ability to display and edit characters used in your language. This may already be the case for MUAs that support EAI, because they will usually be based on MUAs that support using UTF-8 for mail content. - Translation of user interface text, i.e. menues, help files and the like. The chance is high that an MUA implementing EAI already includes mechanisms for this, and that the user interface has already been translated into several languages (although yours may still be missing). Regards, Martin. At 16:13 08/08/21, YAO Jiankang wrote: >$B~=%=(B > >here is reference: http://cslab.kr/eai-test/index.php/Main_Page > > >the below link may contains the implementation about your country's implementations. > >http://global-email.info/signup.php >----- Original Message ----- >From: arfan mansoor >To: IMA@ietf.org >Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:50 PM >Subject: [EAI] help > > >Hello, i am new to list. We are doing work for Urdu (Pakistan language) EAI. I want to know progress about other languages, has any one implemented this successfully and at what level this implementation is possible? > >Regards >Arfan Mansoor > > > > > >---------- >_______________________________________________ >IMA mailing list >IMA@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima > >_______________________________________________ >IMA mailing list >IMA@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp --===============1215721860== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --===============1215721860==-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Aug 28 05:52:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: eai-archive-ahk8aHax@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-eai-archive-ahk8aHax@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0C528C246; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 05:52:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13F3A28C115 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 05:52:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.068, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i9X7HoBkSxyl for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 05:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15FA728C219 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 05:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id EF7091C015A; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:51:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA7E01C0116; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:51:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC2B6C0001; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:51:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:51:51 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: arfan mansoor Message-ID: <20080828125151.GA604@nic.fr> References: <2a6f7a9e0808202350p1a82baen45903321baedc99b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2a6f7a9e0808202350p1a82baen45903321baedc99b@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.24-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: IMA@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] help X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 11:50:47AM +0500, arfan mansoor wrote a message of 38 lines which said: > We are doing work for Urdu (Pakistan language) EAI. I want to know > progress about other languages, has any one implemented this > successfully and at what level this implementation is possible? I feel confused. There is nothing language-specific in the EAI standards, so any good EAI mail server should work for every language on earth. May be you are talking about the development of a MUA, where, certainly, language-specific issues are to be considered? But, if it is the case, isn't it quite ott-topic for this group? _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima