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Passwords for eap-archive@lists.ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- eap@frascone.com ohweow http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/options/eap/eap-archive%40lists.ietf.org From eap-admin@frascone.com Sun May 1 23:45:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA07869 for ; Sun, 1 May 2005 23:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A2020389; Sun, 1 May 2005 23:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F12204CE; Sun, 1 May 2005 23:45:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05AF20389 for ; Sun, 1 May 2005 23:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88AE820375 for ; Sun, 1 May 2005 23:44:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j423i8nf005999; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:44:08 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j423i9gC007934; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:44:09 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id NAA07932 ; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:44:08 +0900 Received: from mx2.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j423i8RJ027834; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:44:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j423i8P3022705; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:44:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j423i74a025839; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:44:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead (iVPN01-228.mobile.toshiba.co.jp) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IFU00DNIFPC35@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:44:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DSRA8-0002Qu-00; Sun, 01 May 2005 20:00:00 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP In-reply-to: To: Bernard Aboba Cc: Alper Yegin , eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050502025959.GF1876@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i References: <049a01c54cf4$7213f950$291d9069@sisa.samsung.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 22:59:59 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) I have some comments. Please see below. On Sat, Apr 30, 2005 at 03:30:14PM -0700, Bernard Aboba wrote: > > I agree to that if we are talking about the "EAP method layer". But if > > we look at the "EAP layer" I see a third entity called "pass through > > authenticator" that has a specific role at the EAP layer. > > RFC 3748 requires that EAP operate the same way whether the authenticator > is operating in "pass-through" mode or not. This is perhaps the single > most important invariant within EAP. In the process of developing RFC > 3748, the WG examinec ases where the protocol operated differently in > "pass-through" mode, and corrections were made so as to allow the protocol > to be invariant. An example of this was the inability to handle silent > drop on the EAP server side in "pass-through" mode. This was fixed in RFC > 3579. > > One of the reasons why the EAP Key Management framework document may be so > confusing to people is that it does not stress this point enough. EAP key > management behavior MUST be the same whether the authenticator is in > "pass-through mode" or not, and many of the properties of the EAP > key management architecture can be derived from this fundamental > assumption. > > As an example: > > The behavior of EAP methods and the EAP layer is the same in any > configuration. For example, as discussed at IETF 62, the EAP layer does > not cache parameters exported by EAP methods, but passes these > parameters down to the lower layer. On the EAP server the lower layer may > be AAA (in pass-through), or it may be a link layer or IP. However, the > operation of the protocol MUST be identical in both cases. > > > - It reads the EAP method payload to determine AAA routing (reading the > > client ID). > > The EAP layer is unaware of EAP method payloads, so the only way for it to > become aware of EAP method-specific identities is if this is exported by > the EAP method itself. In addition to the MSK, EMSK and IV, EAP methods > may export the peer-ID, server-ID, method-ID and key-lifetime. So the way > to think about AAA routing behavior is that the authenticator terminates > the Identity Request/Response conversation and therefore receives the > peer-ID from the Identity method, which it subsequently inserts in the > User-Name attribute in AAA, subsequently used for routing. However, the > EAP authenticator does *not* handle AAA routing itself. > > > - It reads the EAP code for sanity check. If it receives an EAP request > > that it should not, it can drop the EAP packet. > > In "pass-through" mode the authenticator does handle forwarding between > lower layers, and RFC 3748 does indicate that this includes a > responsibility for checking the Code, Identifier and Length fields. > > > - It can generate an EAP Identity Request. > > For the Identity Request/Response, the authenticator acts as the EAP > server, so it both generates the Request and terminates the Response. > > > - It handles retransmissions and it can re-generate loss packets. > > This is a responsibility that goes with forwarding EAP packets. > > > My personal reading of Section 3.1 is these are necessary but not > > sufficient requirements for EAP lower layer designers. I don't expect > > this to be an all comprehensive list. But imo, designing an > > RFC3748-compliant EAP lower layer requires factoring in additional > > aspects of the EAP specs, such as channel binding and secure > > association, which are not covered in that list. > > Yes, RFC 3748 does not provide a complete list of lower layer > responsibilities. > > The way to think about Channel Bindings is that these represent additional > parameters exported/imported by the lower layer to/from the EAP method and > EAP. For example, the channel bindings provided by the NAS to the AAA server are > imported by the EAP method (e.g. NAS-Identifier, Called-Station-Id, > Calling-Station-Id). These are treated like opaque blobs and therefore do > not introduce media dependence to the EAP method, which may transmit them > from EAP server to EAP peer. The method then exports the Channel Bindings > to the EAP layer, which passes them down to the lower layer. The lower > layer on the peer can then verify whether the exported Channel Bindings > match those it has received from the authenticator. > > Note that additional obligations arise when the lower layer caches > parameters from the EAP method/EAP layer. For example, one of the security > requirements is session key freshness. Were parameters not to be cached > by the lower layer, and a new EAP exchange is completed for each > session, then this can be satisfied if the EAP method itself guarantees > freshness. However once caching and reuse is introduced this is no longer > sufficient and therefore the SAP needs to introduce its own freshness > guarantee. > > > > This is a good example. I think the EAP peer should know the NAS ID > > (head), and know the connected port IDs (hands connected to the same > > head). > > The NAS-ID and port-ID may be imported within the EAP method via > Channel-Bindings, but they are treated as opaque blobs, so that the EAP > method or EAP layers don't really "know" them. However, the lower layer > does. One way to understand this is that because EAP runs between the > peer and server and operates the same way in "pass-through" as where EAP > terminates on the authenticator, the NAS-ID or port-ID is not really > relevant to EAP methods or the EAP layer. I am not sure if using an EAP method to carry the NAS-ID or port-ID for Channel Bindings is really a good idea as it would actually make the EAP method media-dependent while it would make EAP media independent. I have another way of channel bindings in my mind as follows. - Let each EAP lower-layer identify the parameters that need channel bindings. - Let the identified channel binding parameters be carried from the EAP authenticator to the EAP server outside the EAP layer or the EAP method layer. When a AAA protocol is used between the authenticator and server, the channel binding parameters should be carried in the AAA protocol. - Let the EAP server use the obtained channel binding parameters to derive a AAA-Key (or a better name for it) from the MSK. The following algorithm proposd by Jesse Walker is a good example of how to do that: AAA-Key := kdf(MSK, NAS-ID) I'd extend the algorithm something like: AAA-Key := kdf(MSK, channel-binding-parameters) ['channel-binding-parameters' include NAS-ID and maybe other parameters as well.] - When the possession of the AAA-Key is cryptographically verified by the peer and authenticator within the EAP lower-layer or a secure association protocol, channel bindings and verification of the posession of the AAA-Key come together. BTW, I have been thinking that EAP runs between EAP peer and EAP authenticator, while EAP methods run between EAP peer and EAP server. I mean that when pass-through authenticator is used, the backend EAP authenticator on the EAP server is taking some task of the EAP authenticator such as generation of EAP Requests (but it does not do timer-based retransmission of EAP requests), but the EAP peer always see its immediate authenticator (i.e., the pass-through authenticator in this case) as its authenticator. Am I wrong? Regards, Yoshihiro Ohba > > However, it is *very* relevant to the lower layer because the NAS-ID > determines the scope of use of the keying material provided by EAP methods > (MSK, EMSK, IV). Since the lower layer handles caching, it cares > about key scope. > > > This does not mean sending the AAA-Key to the ports, right? The ports > > may be on separate nodes (like in AC-AP separation in WiFi). > > We have already had a suggestion that the term "AAA-Key" was a bad choice, > and I think this may have contributed to some of the confusion we are > seeing. "Pass-through" invariance requires that EAP operate the same way > whether AAA is in use or not, so I think this criticism is quite valid. > > The way to think about it is that the EAP method exports the parameters > (MSK, EMSK, IV, peer-ID, server-ID, method-ID, key-lifetime, > channel-bindings), and the EAP layer passes this down to the lower layer. > > The EAP peer does not care what "mode" the authenticator is operating in; > it is the responsibility of AAA to make sure that this invariant is > maintained. > > So perhaps a better way to describe what actually happens is that the > lower layer derives its key hierarchy from the MSK and EMSK and that it is > the job of AAA to make sure that this key hierarchy is present on both the > peer and authenticator. > > For example, in 802.11i the key hierarchy is derived from the PMK (part of > the MSK), and therefore AAA takes responsibility for ensuring that the MSK > is replicated in "pass-through" mode so that the EAP peer doesn't need to > be aware of the mode on the authenticator. > > Note that this illusion would be shattered were the peer to determine its > key hierarchy from the EMSK since current AAA implementations do not > replicate that parameter. > > One way to understand some of the issues that arise with key management > extensions is to ask the question: > > "Does this extension function without pass-through?" > > For example, if the EAP server is present on the authenticator, the > completion of an EAP conversation cannot cause keys to exist on another > authenticator, without fundamentally changing the nature of EAP as a > two-party protocol. Therefore any "extension" that proposes something > like this is incompatible with the EAP "pass-through" and "two party" > invariants. > > > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 03:15:09 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA10006 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C109B204D1; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369D12051E; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:15:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0909B204D1 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFAC2038B for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C9C89879; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:14:06 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4275D343.8030901@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Artur Hecker Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP References: <427216C6.6010908@piuha.net> <4272561D.9080108@enst.fr> In-Reply-To: <4272561D.9080108@enst.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:14:11 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Artur Hecker wrote: > Perhaps we could talk about a "service access control system" instead. > The service might be a network link with This is a good name, and so is "user" and "service providing entity". Note: right now EAP is used for network access, and even most of the new applications of EAP can be thought of as network network access or at least being network access related, such as IKEv2 VPNs, mobility services, or DHCP. Some prior ideas for non-network access related issues such as EAP in HTTP were abandoned. But we also have some ongoing discussions to extend the use of EAP, mainly in SNMP. > Historically, AAA is just a convenient way to centralize the > administration of the dispersed NASes :-) Yes. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 03:20:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA10223 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0752054A; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959D22052F; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:20:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8060204D1 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76BF2038B for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:19:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0280F89844; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:19:19 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4275D47C.8080008@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yoshihiro Ohba Cc: Bernard Aboba , Alper Yegin , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP References: <049a01c54cf4$7213f950$291d9069@sisa.samsung.com> <20050502025959.GF1876@steelhead> In-Reply-To: <20050502025959.GF1876@steelhead> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:19:24 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Yoshihiro, >I am not sure if using an EAP method to carry the NAS-ID or port-ID >for Channel Bindings is really a good idea as it would actually make >the EAP method media-dependent while it would make EAP media >independent. > >(snip) > >I'd extend the algorithm something like: > > AAA-Key := kdf(MSK, channel-binding-parameters) > >['channel-binding-parameters' include NAS-ID and maybe other >parameters as well.] > > Yes, this is another approach to doing the bindings. I believe we discussed this at some earlier time on the list. One problem that was identified back then was that the set of parameters would have to be pretty well specified so that everyone could actually calculate the same key. If someone suddenly came up with a new parameter (say, SSIDng) that somehow needed to be bound, parties would have trouble getting to the same key. The other approach is transporting opaque objects over EAP. I don't necessarily think this makes either EAP or EAP method layer media dependent. But certainly there has to be someone in charge who can interpret the objects and check the binding. Typically this would be the AAA server authorization logic. It seems almost inevitable that if there's channel binding support, then that part needs to know about it... --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 03:59:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA12147 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:59:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751A920549; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:59:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F63204D1; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:59:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50918204D1 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from motgate7.mot.com (motgate7.mot.com [129.188.136.7]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474332038B for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by motgate7.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate7) with ESMTP id j427l6Mq013697 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 00:47:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from il27exm03.cig.mot.com (il27exm03.cig.mot.com [10.17.193.4]) by il06exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j4280esb006121 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:00:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: by il27exm03.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 2 May 2005 02:58:15 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 To: "'Bernard Aboba'" Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: FW: [eap] Re: EAP key binding discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 02:58:07 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Hi Bernard, I guess I may need to look at your performance data for 802.11. Not sure if that applies universally for a general wireless link, though. However, You ARE referring to WLAN switches, not sure how the switch is architected with respect to the AAA server and the AP and who acts as the authenticator? And how the key distribution is handled? Do you care to share some insights on that or that is proprietary. Madjid -----Original Message----- From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:50 PM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: FW: [eap] Re: EAP key binding discussion > What about disclosure of the keys between the authenticators?? Here is the requirement (from RFC 4017): Requirement: "Compromise of a single authenticator cannot compromise any other part of the system, including session keys and long-term secrets." "any other part of the system" would seem to include other authenticators. > I think EAP and its key management framework has not positioned itself > well with respect to handovers and that is why the door for interpretations > is being opened over and over. I'd be interested in any data that you have collected on this. Having recently done some tests on handover times in WLAN switches, I was surprised by how well the equipment performs. For example, we have measured handoffs of 25ms or less on a consistent basis with a number of WLAN switch products. These measurements were made on equipment implementing RFC 3579, RFC 3748, and WPA2 (including pre-authentication). I have collected published material on handoff times at the following location: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IEEE/ > the "mutual authentication" condition which requires mutual > authentication between all parties, _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 04:01:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA12342 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59BD020555; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C642920545; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:01:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D378020549 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F256920507 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DSVqZ-000P97-Ld; Mon, 02 May 2005 04:00:07 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j42805o09373; Mon, 2 May 2005 01:00:05 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: Jari Arkko Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba , Alper Yegin , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP In-Reply-To: <4275D47C.8080008@piuha.net> Message-ID: References: <049a01c54cf4$7213f950$291d9069@sisa.samsung.com> <20050502025959.GF1876@steelhead> <4275D47C.8080008@piuha.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 01:00:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > I am not sure if using an EAP method to carry the NAS-ID or port-ID > for Channel Bindings is really a good idea as it would actually make > the EAP method media-dependent while it would make EAP media > independent. If the Channel Bindings are treated as opaque blobs, and are represented as media-independent attributes, I don't think this creates a media dependency. For example, NAS-Identifier, Called-Station-Id and Calling-Station-ID are all media independent. At least the way Channel Bindings are described in RFC 3748, Section 7.15, it seems like the idea is to export the Bindings for verification by the lower layer. This seems like something that needs more explanation, though. I will file an issue on it and try to post some text to the list. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 04:10:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA12959 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F180320566; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88EED2054D; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:10:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0803520549 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD1A2038B for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE92B89844; Mon, 2 May 2005 11:09:13 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4275E02F.6060406@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: "'Bernard Aboba'" , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] RE: EAP key management support for handover?? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:09:19 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Madjid >Here are my issues: >1) After reading the draft a few times, I am still not clear how EMSK is derived? And what the distinction between MSK and EMSK is? > > They are just different pieces of key material expected to come out of all EAP methods. MSK and EMSK are independent in the sense that if you have MSK, you can't calculate EMSK and vice versa. The actual derivation of both MSK and EMSK is method depend. For instance, in EAP TLS MSK is the first 64 bytes and the EMSK is the last 64 bytes of TLS-PRF-128(TMS, "client EAP encryption", client.random || server.random) >2) on generation of AAABS-Key-A, I am wondering why there is first AMSK(0,63) and then AAA-key? Aren't they the same (according to the first expression). Is this just the notation, or the AMSK is actually used twice? > > AMSK(0,63) is used multiple times, but only to branch of new keys tied to the specific AP identities. >3) Ok, so if the AAABS-key is derived based on the AMSK only and the AMSK is never transported from the AAA server, and only AAA-key is transported to the authenticator, that partly addresses my concern. But what does transferring the AAA-key to the authenticator achieve anyway? > > Transferring AAA-Key to the authenticator is necessary because that's what current systems do -- AAA-Key is used to handle the keying for the first access point. >For every new authenticator the AAABS-key must still be derived by the AAA server? > > In this model, yes. >Deriving keys from the AMSK formula not only enables cryptographic >separation, but it addresses the domino effect as well since the EMSK >never leaves the peer or server on which it is derived. > >Madjid>>agreed, however, I still now how EMSK is derived? > > See above. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 04:14:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA13402 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D7DF20566; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA64420549; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:14:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051F420549 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293192038B for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate8.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate8) with ESMTP id j428Fa24017679 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 01:15:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from il27exm03.cig.mot.com (il27exm03.cig.mot.com [10.17.193.4]) by il06exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j428GE5g010169 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:16:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: by il27exm03.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 2 May 2005 03:13:05 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 To: "'Jari Arkko'" , Bernard Aboba Cc: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Basic facts about EAP MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 03:12:54 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Hi Jari, -----Original Message----- From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Jari Arkko Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 6:13 AM To: Bernard Aboba Cc: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Bernard Aboba wrote: >>And there's no single correct system, either. For instance, it's >>perfectly OK to have a system where both EAP server and RADIUS server >>are considered to be parts of a single logical entity. But nothing >>in the components (EAP or RADIUS) implies or forces this: it is >>this unnamed system that is making this definition. But since we >>don't have good names for these systems, it's easy to get a >>disagreement when two people are, in fact, talking of two different >>systems that happen to use EAP (or are arguing that there is or >>should be a single correct system, and no other systems are allowed >>to use EAP). >> >> > >Do you have a suggestion for how we might clarify the usage? > > I usually refer to the system as the "network access control system", though this works only when EAP is used where it was originally intended to be used. The system consists of clients, NASes, proxies, and servers, and has three main protocols: - First hop, either on L2 (e.g. 802.11i) or L3 (e.g. PANA, IKEv2) Madjid>> Ok, I guess so we are rulling out the EAP proxy model that has been proposed? Peer------L2-------AP-----???-----NAS Note that L3 may not be possible, given that in many network IP layer configuration follows the initial authentication and key distribution, so that rules out PANA or IKEv2, no? - AAA, running between NASes and servers in a fashion where the existence of the proxies is visible and known to the protocol Madjid>> This rules out sending the keys to a non-NAS node?? - EAP, running between the client and the servers, unaware of NASes unless channel bindings are being provided Madjid>>See, this is where I have problem with the existing way of thinking: people have been saying that it is wrong to call EAP anything but a 2 party model, EAP is unaware of NAS, fine. But EAP requires functionalities from AAA entities such as NAS and has requirements on where the keys should be sent, how they are cached or named. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 04:28:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA14101 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28FF020579; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E742B20555; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:28:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECFBB20555 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ED312038B for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 04:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB8689844; Mon, 2 May 2005 11:27:21 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4275E46E.8090109@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Bernard Aboba , Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:27:26 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Ok, I guess so we are rulling out the EAP proxy model that has been proposed? > > My description was made mainly from the point of view of existing EAP usage. I didn't want to rule out future needs, they were simply not considered in the description. Any extensions would of course have to be considered carefully, and at this point in time backwards compatibility dictates a lot of course. But I don't want to "rule out" anything. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 05:16:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA16372 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 05:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA39F20582; Mon, 2 May 2005 05:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6C3820563; Mon, 2 May 2005 05:16:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B0D20563 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 05:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732F62038B for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 05:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1338989844; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:15:16 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4275EFA9.8010802@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Narayanan Vidya-CVN065 Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] EAP, AAA and Handovers References: <1B631E11D496D711BB2800065BFCB6A11B7A6F77@il02exm13> In-Reply-To: <1B631E11D496D711BB2800065BFCB6A11B7A6F77@il02exm13> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:15:21 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Narayanan Vidya-CVN065 wrote: > All, > There has been discussion on handovers and EAP lately on the list, so > I thought I'd post this question to the group. There is general > agreement that handovers require faster re-authentication and that EAP > doesn't necessarily provide that by default, as the roundtrip to the > AAA server and the number of messages involved may take away from > that. Pre-authentication helps, but not all that much if the AAA > server is many, many hops away and is also dependent on how far in > advance of the handover the client initiates the pre-authentication. > Yes. There seems to be many different cases and environments here, alternative solutions are likely to work best in different cases. In any case, we are talking about a fairly complicated piece of functionality. Lets be careful to not make this too complicated, using the simpler techniques until it is shown that they are insufficient for important cases. > In my mind, there seems to be two ways of addressing this handover > problem: > > 1. Modify EAP somehow or introduce a "local" node geographically > closer to the NAS that can receive the AAA-key. There is always the > question of whether this approach compromises security and whether > this now becomes a greater than 3-party model that is not acceptable, > etc. This topic is already under discussion and I don't want the > discussion to be repeated here. Yes. And there are three variants of this, 1a where the local node is the first base station, 1b where it is a local AAA proxy, and 1c where its a completely new node in the AAA network. > > 2. Modify AAA to allow creation of multiple AAA-keys (for multiple > NAS-es) and send them to the respective NAS-es. This is not a novel > concept and has been talked about in university papers and such - but > I am trying to understand if this is a viable method to discuss in the > IETF. Basically, if the AAA server can create AAA-keys for neighbor > NAS entities (and not just the current requesting NAS), it keeps the > model of EAP intact - only the AS generates the AAA-key to be used Yes. > between one NAS/client pair. However, the issue with this is the > support for unsolicited messages in the AAA protocols - today, the AAA > server cannot send an unsolicited message with a AAA-key to a NAS for > a client that is yet to attach to it. Introducing such a model (wasn't > there an IRTF draft at some point talking about RADIUS Notify messages > or some such sort?) would allow the AAA-server to authenticate the > client and derive one AAA-key for the current NAS and an arbitrary > number of AAA-keys for potential handover target NAS-es and send them > down in an unsolicited manner to the target NAS devices. Server-initiated RADIUS is possible, I believe, but I'm not sure if it works for this particular case where no prior contact exists. > > Has this model been discussed before? If so, I'd appreciate if someone > can point me to any documentation/ML thread on this. If not, I'd like > to understand if that is a viable option or not. I understand that AAA > protocols already have a widely deployed base - but, this doesn't > necessarily have an impact on legacy devices. It places a new > requirement on AAA (and possibly a minor one on EAP to carry the > request for multiple AAA-keys) to support handovers - but would that > not be acceptable? It seems to me that this would allow all the > Housley criteria to be satisfied and the 3-party model to be preserved > properly. > I believe there are two parts in your approach #2: the separate keys and the delivery. The keying framework supports the separate key approach, for security reasons. It doesn't talk much about the delivery part. Obviously, various delivery options are possible, such as fast-reauth and delivery of key, plain key request without auth, and proactive key distribution. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From grange_gingold@wacoal-america.com Mon May 2 06:25:46 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25332; Mon, 2 May 2005 06:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DSYLD-00078n-Nc; Mon, 02 May 2005 06:39:56 -0400 Received: from 200164049165.user.veloxzone.com.br ([200.164.49.165]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DSY7T-0004iY-3I; Mon, 02 May 2005 06:25:43 -0400 Received: from mail.physiciansite.com (200.164.49.165) by 200.164.49.165 with Microsoft SMTP939(5.7.9.0); Mon, 02 May 2005 04:21:54 -0700 Received: from 200.164.49.165 (betrothal[200.164.49.165]) by mail.physiciansite.com (mky9) with SMTP id <742377g55s> (Authid: 48196); Mon, 02 May 2005 12:14:54 +0100 Message-ID: Reply-To: "atlanta violeta" From: "atlanta violeta" To: dinaras@ietf.org Cc: directory-web-archive@ietf.org, disman@ietf.org, disman-admin@ietf.org, disman-request@ietf.org, dmin@ietf.org, dn@ietf.org, drafts@ietf.org, e3@ietf.org, eamoby@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, edu-team@ietf.org Subject: Need a Home Loan? 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if you received this in error: re-m0-ve ----8583568_03128943.vk10-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 08:48:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA12867 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48AE2205BF; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41DA205B6; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:48:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB83205B6 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8235720597 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 08:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id j42ClknE019133 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 05:47:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from il27exm03.cig.mot.com (il27exm03.cig.mot.com [10.17.193.4]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j42CnRH9020241 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 07:49:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: by il27exm03.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 2 May 2005 07:47:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 To: "'Jari Arkko'" Cc: "'Bernard Aboba'" , eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] RE: EAP key management support for handover?? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 07:47:45 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Hi Jari, Thank you for pointing the formula to me. Actually I went through the EAP draft a few hours after my email and did find the formula on EMSK. I guess now Bernard's point with the key derivation makes a bit more sense: AAA-Key = MSK(0,63) AMSK = KDF(EMSK, "EAP AAA-Key derivation for multiple attachments", length) AAABS-Key-A = prf(AMSK(0,63),"EAP AAA-Key derivation for multiple attachments", AAA-Key, BS-A-Id, Peer-Id,length) AAA-key is derived from MSK, while AMSK is derived from EMSK and AAABS-key is derived from both. Part of MSK is sent to the authenticator in form of AAA-key. EMSK stays as a whole in the peer and server, which I guess means AMSK is derived only at the peer and the server. I see your point about using AMSK(0,63) multiple times for multiple AAABS-keys, however I am trying to understand what the reasoning for the fact that both AMSK and AAA key are used for AAABS-key derivation? Say I want to derive the keys for one BS, this would mean I would calculate AAABS-key for the BS (authenticator) at the server and push AAABS-key to that BS. What would the purpose of pushing the AAA-key to that authenticator be? You say AAA-key is sent for "keying at the first access point"? I would appreciate some clarification on this. Thanks, Madjid -----Original Message----- From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net] Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 3:09 AM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: 'Bernard Aboba'; eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] RE: EAP key management support for handover?? Hi Madjid >Here are my issues: >1) After reading the draft a few times, I am still not clear how EMSK is derived? And what the distinction between MSK and EMSK is? > > They are just different pieces of key material expected to come out of all EAP methods. MSK and EMSK are independent in the sense that if you have MSK, you can't calculate EMSK and vice versa. The actual derivation of both MSK and EMSK is method depend. For instance, in EAP TLS MSK is the first 64 bytes and the EMSK is the last 64 bytes of TLS-PRF-128(TMS, "client EAP encryption", client.random || server.random) >2) on generation of AAABS-Key-A, I am wondering why there is first AMSK(0,63) and then AAA-key? Aren't they the same (according to the first expression). Is this just the notation, or the AMSK is actually used twice? > > AMSK(0,63) is used multiple times, but only to branch of new keys tied to the specific AP identities. >3) Ok, so if the AAABS-key is derived based on the AMSK only and the AMSK is never transported from the AAA server, and only AAA-key is transported to the authenticator, that partly addresses my concern. But what does transferring the AAA-key to the authenticator achieve anyway? > > Transferring AAA-Key to the authenticator is necessary because that's what current systems do -- AAA-Key is used to handle the keying for the first access point. >For every new authenticator the AAABS-key must still be derived by the AAA server? > > In this model, yes. >Deriving keys from the AMSK formula not only enables cryptographic >separation, but it addresses the domino effect as well since the EMSK >never leaves the peer or server on which it is derived. > >Madjid>>agreed, however, I still now how EMSK is derived? > > See above. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 10:32:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21759 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A36205C7; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07731205B9; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:32:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B16205B9 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F11320511 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 10:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j42EV6nf025880; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:31:06 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j42EV6Mc027622; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:31:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id ZAA27619 ; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:31:06 +0900 Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j42EV6tQ007475; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:31:06 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j42EV522012351; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:31:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j42EV54a017586; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:31:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead ([172.30.24.37]) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IFV006XN9NJAK@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:30:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DSbO3-0002YB-00; Mon, 02 May 2005 06:55:03 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP In-reply-to: <4275D47C.8080008@piuha.net> To: Jari Arkko Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba , Bernard Aboba , Alper Yegin , eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050502135503.GI1876@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i References: <049a01c54cf4$7213f950$291d9069@sisa.samsung.com> <20050502025959.GF1876@steelhead> <4275D47C.8080008@piuha.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 09:55:03 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Hi Jari, On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 10:19:24AM +0300, Jari Arkko wrote: > Hi Yoshihiro, > > >I am not sure if using an EAP method to carry the NAS-ID or port-ID > >for Channel Bindings is really a good idea as it would actually make > >the EAP method media-dependent while it would make EAP media > >independent. > > > >(snip) > > > >I'd extend the algorithm something like: > > > > AAA-Key := kdf(MSK, channel-binding-parameters) > > > >['channel-binding-parameters' include NAS-ID and maybe other > >parameters as well.] > > > > > Yes, this is another approach to doing the bindings. I believe > we discussed this at some earlier time on the list. One problem > that was identified back then was that the set of parameters would > have to be pretty well specified so that everyone could actually > calculate the same key. If someone suddenly came up with a > new parameter (say, SSIDng) that somehow needed to be bound, > parties would have trouble getting to the same key. Yes, the channel binding parameters would have to be pretty well specified between the EAP peer and authenticator. My point is that this does not necessarily mean that using EAP method as the carrier of the parameters is a better way. > > The other approach is transporting opaque objects over EAP. > I don't necessarily think this makes either EAP or EAP method > layer media dependent. But certainly there has to be someone > in charge who can interpret the objects and check the binding. > Typically this would be the AAA server authorization logic. It > seems almost inevitable that if there's channel binding support, > then that part needs to know about it... Given that the channel binding parameters would have to be pretty well specified between the EAP peer and authenticator, the authenticator can send the opaque objects to the EAP server via a AAA protocol (e.g., a channel-binding attribute/AVP). The EAP server will be able to calculate the AAA-Key without necessarily knowing the semantics of the opaque objects. What do you think? Yoshihiro Ohba > > --Jari > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From SimmoEmil@junkerjorg.com Mon May 2 12:15:55 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00030 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 12:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200505021615.MAA00030@ietf.org> Received: from [85.201.21.81] (helo=junkerjorg.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DSdo6-000717-A0 for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 12:30:07 -0400 From: "Emiliana Simmons" To: "Pablo Pina" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?V=EDAGRA_V=E0LLlUM_ClALL=ECS?= Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 12:15:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C54EF7.42766039" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C54EF7.42766039 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, young nobleman had been an active agent of the Duke's. 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If you prefer not to receive such offers go here: http://g.msn.com/0MNBUS00/1?http://www.jettisonit.com/dip/r.php --92234883735646-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 14:00:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA10028 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 14:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40AFC20462; Mon, 2 May 2005 14:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73E22205BF; Mon, 2 May 2005 14:00:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38FB320462 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 13:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531522042B for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 13:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE21A89879; Mon, 2 May 2005 20:59:44 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42766A96.5000704@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yoshihiro Ohba Cc: Bernard Aboba , Alper Yegin , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP References: <049a01c54cf4$7213f950$291d9069@sisa.samsung.com> <20050502025959.GF1876@steelhead> <4275D47C.8080008@piuha.net> <20050502135503.GI1876@steelhead> In-Reply-To: <20050502135503.GI1876@steelhead> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 20:59:50 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yoshihiro Ohba wrote: >Given that the channel binding parameters would have to be pretty well >specified between the EAP peer and authenticator, the authenticator >can send the opaque objects to the EAP server via a AAA protocol >(e.g., a channel-binding attribute/AVP). The EAP server will be able >to calculate the AAA-Key without necessarily knowing the semantics of >the opaque objects. What do you think? > > Sure. In fact, we are mostly doing this already... almost all information that one can think of as being a channel property already has an associated AAA attribute. But I was more worried about how the peer and the AAA server can be in sync about the parameters to be used. If they don't communicate over EAP, this leaves only full one-time specification as an option. If they communicate (as in various drafts that propose to do channel binding), then the set of parameters can evolve. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 14:35:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA16367 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 14:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF7E20462; Mon, 2 May 2005 14:35:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4B8205C7; Mon, 2 May 2005 14:35:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B50205C1 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 14:34:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E8720462 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 14:34:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j42IYpnf027163; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:34:51 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j42IYqHo014342; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:34:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id DAA14341 ; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:34:51 +0900 Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j42IYpOd009492; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:34:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j42IYpG9009748; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:34:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j42IYo4a016794; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:34:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead ([172.30.24.37]) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IFV00GQTKXUD7@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:34:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DSdcc-0002lJ-00; Mon, 02 May 2005 09:18:14 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP In-reply-to: To: Bernard Aboba Cc: Jari Arkko , Yoshihiro Ohba , Alper Yegin , eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050502161814.GK1876@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i References: <049a01c54cf4$7213f950$291d9069@sisa.samsung.com> <20050502025959.GF1876@steelhead> <4275D47C.8080008@piuha.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:18:14 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 01:00:05AM -0700, Bernard Aboba wrote: > > I am not sure if using an EAP method to carry the NAS-ID or port-ID > > for Channel Bindings is really a good idea as it would actually make > > the EAP method media-dependent while it would make EAP media > > independent. > > If the Channel Bindings are treated as opaque blobs, and are represented > as media-independent attributes, I don't think this creates a media dependency. When I was talking about channel bindings are treated via EAP methods, I was referring to draft-arkko-eap-service-identity-auth-01.txt. It defines several IEEE 802.11 specific parameters such as BSSID and SSID with assigning Parameters Identifiers for them. I see this media-dependent. This I-D may be updated to support truely opaque blobs, but I will still see an issue if all EAP methods that are capable of deriving an MSK needs to carry the opaque blobs. Regards, Yoshihiro Ohba > > For example, NAS-Identifier, Called-Station-Id and Calling-Station-ID are > all media independent. > > At least the way Channel Bindings are described in RFC 3748, Section 7.15, > it seems like the idea is to export the Bindings for verification by the > lower layer. > > This seems like something that needs more explanation, though. I will > file an issue on it and try to post some text to the list. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 16:46:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA13645 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0773205E2; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FAAD2046C; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:46:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2160E2046C for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B0620448 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j42Kjonf022011; Tue, 3 May 2005 05:45:50 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j42Kjo1P012252; Tue, 3 May 2005 05:45:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id FAA12251 ; Tue, 3 May 2005 05:45:50 +0900 Received: from mx2.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j42KjoCf022516; Tue, 3 May 2005 05:45:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j42Kjn7k016767; Tue, 3 May 2005 05:45:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j42Kjn4a019216; Tue, 3 May 2005 05:45:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead ([172.30.24.37]) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IFV0003OR05FT@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Tue, 3 May 2005 05:45:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DSeoq-0002qe-00; Mon, 02 May 2005 10:34:56 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP In-reply-to: <42766A96.5000704@piuha.net> To: Jari Arkko Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba , Bernard Aboba , Alper Yegin , eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050502173456.GL1876@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i References: <049a01c54cf4$7213f950$291d9069@sisa.samsung.com> <20050502025959.GF1876@steelhead> <4275D47C.8080008@piuha.net> <20050502135503.GI1876@steelhead> <42766A96.5000704@piuha.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:34:56 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 08:59:50PM +0300, Jari Arkko wrote: > Yoshihiro Ohba wrote: > > >Given that the channel binding parameters would have to be pretty well > >specified between the EAP peer and authenticator, the authenticator > >can send the opaque objects to the EAP server via a AAA protocol > >(e.g., a channel-binding attribute/AVP). The EAP server will be able > >to calculate the AAA-Key without necessarily knowing the semantics of > >the opaque objects. What do you think? > > > > > Sure. In fact, we are mostly doing this already... almost all > information that > one can think of as being a channel property already has an associated > AAA attribute. > > But I was more worried about how the peer and the AAA server can be in > sync about the parameters to be used. If they don't communicate over > EAP, this leaves only full one-time specification as an option. If they > communicate (as in various drafts that propose to do channel binding), > then the set of parameters can evolve. I don't really think that the peer and the AAA server need to be syncronized about the exact parameters (that's why opaque blob can be used for channel bindings), while I do think that the peer and the authenticator (NAS) need to be synchronized about them. Also, I think that the peer and the authenticator need to be synchronized about the parameters even in the case of stand-alone authenticator (i.e., no AAA protocol) in order to avoid MiTM in between. In this case, the EAP lower-layer is surely able to bind the AAA-Key to the parameters (binding based on using the parameters in the key derivation algorithm) without carrying the parameters in the EAP method. I think we should use the same way of binding regardless of whether there is a pass-through authenticator or not. Otherwise, if we use one channel binding method for the stand-alone authenticator case and another channel binding method for the backend authenticator case, it would not make the pass-through authenticator transparent to the EAP peer. Yoshihiro Ohba > > --Jari > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 17:02:05 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA14844 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558D9205E8; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2375205DB; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:02:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F344F205DB for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E032050C for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from centralmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM ([129.147.62.1]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j42L1ojO002860 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 15:01:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by centralmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id j42L1mac014076 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 15:01:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j42L1LOl028655; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:01:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id j42L1JMk028654; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:01:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Nicolas Williams To: "Glen Zorn (gwz)" Cc: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Message-ID: <20050502210119.GL28366@binky.Central.Sun.COM> References: <200504281821.j3SILUpR012910@sj-core-4.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200504281821.j3SILUpR012910@sj-core-4.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:01:19 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Thu, Apr 28, 2005 at 11:21:25AM -0700, Glen Zorn (gwz) wrote: > Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com <> supposedly scribbled: > > > Bernard Aboba wrote: > >> > >> I have received a request that the following basic facts about > EAP be > >> posted to the EAP WG mailing list. > >> > >> a. EAP is a two party protocol, run between an EAP peer and > server. > >> Saying EAP is an N-party protocol is like saying that TCP is a > >> N-party protocol because TCP packets pass through routers. > >> Forwarding an EAP packet without modification does not cause an > >> entity to become a "participant" in an EAP conversation any more > >> than forwarding an IP packet turns a router into a host. > > > > I fully agree. EAP is a two-party protocol between two entities. > > > > However, EAP is always used as a component or "sub-protocol" in a > > system which includes several other (sub-)protocols and usually > more > > than two entities. > > I'm not sure how that is material: EAP is (or should be, IMHO) as > aware of things like RADIUS proxies or Diameter agents as HTTP is of > IP routers. Right. Let's not confuse EAP with EAP methods. EAP is a two-party framework into which EAP methods fit. Some EAP methods may require a third party, and sometimes that third party may be "collocated" with one of the EAP parties. But that would be a feature of the method, not of the framework (even if all EAP methods work that way in practice). Much like the Kerberos V GSS-API mechanism is a three-party mechanism that fits in a two-party framework (the GSS-API). A variant which allowed for proxying of AS and TGS exchanges by a GSS acceptor would be very similar to the world of EAP. I find it very useful to think of EAP this way as it allows me to impose, in my mind, a GSS-like abstract API on EAP methods. Please correct me if this is wrong. Cheers, Nico -- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 17:12:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA15681 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCDF3205EB; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C3D205E6; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:12:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C68205E6 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35D44205DB for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 17:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from centralmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM ([129.147.62.1]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j42LBNjG005893 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 14:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by centralmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id j42LBMac020048 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 15:11:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j42LBMxG028664; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:11:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id j42LBLhg028663; Mon, 2 May 2005 16:11:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Nicolas Williams To: Jari Arkko Cc: gwz@cisco.com, Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Message-ID: <20050502211121.GM28366@binky.Central.Sun.COM> References: <200504281821.j3SILUpR012910@sj-core-4.cisco.com> <4272153D.7010503@piuha.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4272153D.7010503@piuha.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:11:21 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Fri, Apr 29, 2005 at 02:06:37PM +0300, Jari Arkko wrote: > I tend to agree with Pasi here. Even if EAP is a two-party > protocol, the complete system consisting of AAA and some > features of EAP have more than two entities. For instance, > EAP channel bindings specified in RFC 3748 help the system > to protect against compromise of individual NASes through > the system being aware of 3 entities, the information about > the NAS being in part communicated over EAP. But note that the GSS-API also has a similar (bear with me) concept of channel bindings, yet the GSS-API itself is a two-party framework (though its mechanisms are free to involve additional parties). I think imposing some formal structure and abstraction on EAP would go a long way to making these threads unnecessary :) Nico -- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 18:57:10 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26710 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 18:57:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26AE32041B; Mon, 2 May 2005 18:57:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5164420424; Mon, 2 May 2005 18:57:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3072026C for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 18:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailout1.samsung.com (mailout1.samsung.com [203.254.224.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B3C61FDEB for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 18:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ep_mmp1 (mailout1.samsung.com [203.254.224.24]) by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IFV00381X2W2C@mailout1.samsung.com> for eap@frascone.com; Tue, 03 May 2005 07:56:56 +0900 (KST) Received: from Alperyegin ([105.144.29.41]) by mmp1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with ESMTPA id <0IFV00MBVX2UM6@mmp1.samsung.com> for eap@frascone.com; Tue, 03 May 2005 07:56:56 +0900 (KST) From: Alper Yegin Subject: RE: [eap] Basic facts about EAP In-reply-to: To: "'Bernard Aboba'" Cc: eap@frascone.com Message-id: <023101c54f6a$2b1f0cb0$291d9069@sisa.samsung.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:56:23 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bernard, Thank you for the elaborate response. I understand that from EAP peer's perspective, there is only the "authenticator." Though that is a step towards having a 2-party protocol, the overall design has all the characteristics of a protocol that has distinct 3 elements -- with the authenticator processing (reading) and even generating and terminating EAP messages. (And at least the other 2 are aware of what's going on). Going back to your earlier TCP and IP routers example, this is way beyond what TCP expects (or, defines) for IP routers to do. This may all boil down to some semantics discussion. Is this a 2-party protocol with a well-defined way to implement it using 3 elements? Or, a 3-party protocol that can be implemented as 2 parties? Or, a 3-party protocol that one element sees the other two as one? In any case, adding more parties to this design needs careful consideration. More comments inlined below. > > I agree to that if we are talking about the "EAP method layer". But if > > we look at the "EAP layer" I see a third entity called "pass through > > authenticator" that has a specific role at the EAP layer. > > RFC 3748 requires that EAP operate the same way whether the authenticator > is operating in "pass-through" mode or not. Is this aspect only applicable to the EAP peer? I think the Authentication Server would know there is a middle man (authenticator). Otherwise, it would be confused about the Response messages it gets for the Requests sent by the authenticator. > This is perhaps the single > most important invariant within EAP. In the process of developing RFC > 3748, the WG examinec ases where the protocol operated differently in > "pass-through" mode, and corrections were made so as to allow the protocol > to be invariant. An example of this was the inability to handle silent > drop on the EAP server side in "pass-through" mode. This was fixed in RFC > 3579. > > One of the reasons why the EAP Key Management framework document may be so > confusing to people is that it does not stress this point enough. EAP key > management behavior MUST be the same whether the authenticator is in > "pass-through mode" or not, and many of the properties of the EAP > key management architecture can be derived from this fundamental > assumption. > > As an example: > > The behavior of EAP methods and the EAP layer is the same in any > configuration. For example, as discussed at IETF 62, the EAP layer does > not cache parameters exported by EAP methods, but passes these > parameters down to the lower layer. On the EAP server the lower layer may > be AAA (in pass-through), or it may be a link layer or IP. However, the > operation of the protocol MUST be identical in both cases. The text and even the diagrams in RFC3748 seem to indicate the "lower layer" is run between the peer and authenticator. So, it does not really cover RADIUS/Diameter.... Is that the intended use of this term? [This is just a side question I've had before...] > > - It reads the EAP method payload to determine AAA routing (reading the > > client ID). > > The EAP layer is unaware of EAP method payloads, so the only way for it to > become aware of EAP method-specific identities is if this is exported by > the EAP method itself. In addition to the MSK, EMSK and IV, EAP methods > may export the peer-ID, server-ID, method-ID and key-lifetime. So the way > to think about AAA routing behavior is that the authenticator terminates > the Identity Request/Response conversation and therefore receives the > peer-ID from the Identity method, which it subsequently inserts in the > User-Name attribute in AAA, subsequently used for routing. However, the > EAP authenticator does *not* handle AAA routing itself. I may have missed this in any of the specifications (the termination on the authenticator). But I have seen explicit mention of NAS forwarding the Response/ID to the authentication server in RFC 3579 (Section 2.1). > > - It reads the EAP code for sanity check. If it receives an EAP request > > that it should not, it can drop the EAP packet. > > In "pass-through" mode the authenticator does handle forwarding between > lower layers, and RFC 3748 does indicate that this includes a > responsibility for checking the Code, Identifier and Length fields. To me, this looks like an IP router peeking into the TCP header to drop packets. > > - It can generate an EAP Identity Request. > > For the Identity Request/Response, the authenticator acts as the EAP > server, so it both generates the Request and terminates the Response. I've had a comment on this above. > > - It handles retransmissions and it can re-generate loss packets. > > This is a responsibility that goes with forwarding EAP packets. I think for a truly 2 party "EAP protocol", it should have been the responsibility of the originator of the EAP message. > > My personal reading of Section 3.1 is these are necessary but not > > sufficient requirements for EAP lower layer designers. I don't expect > > this to be an all comprehensive list. But imo, designing an > > RFC3748-compliant EAP lower layer requires factoring in additional > > aspects of the EAP specs, such as channel binding and secure > > association, which are not covered in that list. > > Yes, RFC 3748 does not provide a complete list of lower layer > responsibilities. OK, that's what I was trying to get at. So, being in compliance with that list is necessary but not sufficient to design a RFC3748-compliant EAP lower layer. > The way to think about Channel Bindings is that these represent additional > parameters exported/imported by the lower layer to/from the EAP method and > EAP. For example, the channel bindings provided by the NAS to the AAA > server are > imported by the EAP method (e.g. NAS-Identifier, Called-Station-Id, > Calling-Station-Id). These are treated like opaque blobs and therefore do > not introduce media dependence to the EAP method, which may transmit them > from EAP server to EAP peer. The method then exports the Channel Bindings > to the EAP layer, which passes them down to the lower layer. The lower > layer on the peer can then verify whether the exported Channel Bindings > match those it has received from the authenticator. > > Note that additional obligations arise when the lower layer caches > parameters from the EAP method/EAP layer. For example, one of the > security > requirements is session key freshness. Were parameters not to be cached > by the lower layer, and a new EAP exchange is completed for each > session, then this can be satisfied if the EAP method itself guarantees > freshness. However once caching and reuse is introduced this is no longer > sufficient and therefore the SAP needs to introduce its own freshness > guarantee. > > > > This is a good example. I think the EAP peer should know the NAS ID > > (head), and know the connected port IDs (hands connected to the same > > head). > > The NAS-ID and port-ID may be imported within the EAP method via > Channel-Bindings, but they are treated as opaque blobs, so that the EAP > method or EAP layers don't really "know" them. However, the lower layer > does. One way to understand this is that because EAP runs between the > peer and server and operates the same way in "pass-through" as where EAP > terminates on the authenticator, the NAS-ID or port-ID is not really > relevant to EAP methods or the EAP layer. Actually, that's where I was going to get at... If the "EAP peer" does not know about the separation of authenticator from the EAP server, than for it to be talking about "a lying NAS" is strange. But your solution I think handles this. But I guess we need some standard facilities in the EAP that tells an EAP method/peer/layer to pass down a blob. > However, it is *very* relevant to the lower layer because the NAS-ID > determines the scope of use of the keying material provided by EAP methods > (MSK, EMSK, IV). Since the lower layer handles caching, it cares > about key scope. > > > This does not mean sending the AAA-Key to the ports, right? The ports > > may be on separate nodes (like in AC-AP separation in WiFi). > > We have already had a suggestion that the term "AAA-Key" was a bad choice, > and I think this may have contributed to some of the confusion we are > seeing. "Pass-through" invariance requires that EAP operate the same way > whether AAA is in use or not, so I think this criticism is quite valid. Or, the other approach is to tell people to treat "AAA" as a generic term, and not another name for "RADIUS" :-) Though this may be harder... > The way to think about it is that the EAP method exports the parameters > (MSK, EMSK, IV, peer-ID, server-ID, method-ID, key-lifetime, > channel-bindings), and the EAP layer passes this down to the lower layer. > > The EAP peer does not care what "mode" the authenticator is operating in; > it is the responsibility of AAA to make sure that this invariant is > maintained. > > So perhaps a better way to describe what actually happens is that the > lower layer derives its key hierarchy from the MSK and EMSK and that it is > the job of AAA to make sure that this key hierarchy is present on both the > peer and authenticator. > > For example, in 802.11i the key hierarchy is derived from the PMK (part of > the MSK), and therefore AAA takes responsibility for ensuring that the MSK > is replicated in "pass-through" mode so that the EAP peer doesn't need to > be aware of the mode on the authenticator. > > Note that this illusion would be shattered were the peer to determine its > key hierarchy from the EMSK since current AAA implementations do not > replicate that parameter. > > One way to understand some of the issues that arise with key management > extensions is to ask the question: > > "Does this extension function without pass-through?" > > For example, if the EAP server is present on the authenticator, the > completion of an EAP conversation cannot cause keys to exist on another > authenticator, without fundamentally changing the nature of EAP as a > two-party protocol. Therefore any "extension" that proposes something > like this is incompatible with the EAP "pass-through" and "two party" > invariants. Regards Alper _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From dcppzlzw@yahoo.com Mon May 2 19:13:46 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28706; Mon, 2 May 2005 19:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [65.42.193.228] (helo=VACATION-FELICE) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DSkKY-0005JE-Vl; Mon, 02 May 2005 19:28:03 -0400 Received: from . ...es ([10.148.69.230] helo=.mail.desty.org) by smtp2.desty.org with esmtp id 2A555j-0941FN-00; Mon, 02 May 2005 21:04:39 -0300 Message-Id: Sender: dcppzlzw@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 05:12:39 +0500 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 May 2005 01:05:39 +0100." <20031002150239.GG32185@asuka.tech.sitadelle.com> From: "Lucy Crawford" To: directory-web-archive@ietf.org Subject: Latest Cable Filter Bq3 X-Spam-Score: 19.6 (+++++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Introducing "2005 Digital Cable Filters" Equipped with latest pass-through technology video bypass chip. Guarantee to work with all digital cable receivers.. or your moneeys back! - Enjoy free pay-per-view channels - Adult Channels - On Demand Channels and lots more! http://www.1clicktown.info re movress below: http://www.1clicktown.info/r ehR7 From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 22:31:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA14905 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 22:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E021B205DE; Mon, 2 May 2005 22:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32CA2205A2; Mon, 2 May 2005 22:31:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA5C205A2 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 22:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29A120518 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 22:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 May 2005 19:30:31 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.92,147,1112598000"; d="scan'208"; a="633810746:sNHT31755558" Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j432URhu017332; Mon, 2 May 2005 19:30:28 -0700 (PDT) content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Subject: RE: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69051E8A45@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Thread-Index: AcVMrR8oQLMFf66sQYa2S6KTdBc79AC2pBog From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Jari Arkko" , "Bernard Aboba" Cc: , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 19:34:08 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net]=20 > I usually refer to the system as the "network access control=20 > system", though this works only when EAP is used where it was=20 > originally intended to be used. The system consists of=20 > clients, NASes, proxies, and servers, and has three main > protocols: >=20 > - First hop, either on L2 (e.g. 802.11i) or L3 (e.g. PANA, IKEv2) > - AAA, running between NASes and servers in a fashion where > the existence of the proxies is visible and known to the protocol > - EAP, running between the client and the servers, unaware > of NASes unless channel bindings are being provided >=20 [Joe] It would be better if EAP is unaware of NASes even if channel bindings are being provided. If EAP methods are going to remain agnostic of their lower layers then this sort of information should be passed out of the EAP method for the encapsulating layer to deal with. =20 > --Jari >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 2 23:28:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA19525 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B972E205E8; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86ACD204C7; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:28:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7F2204C7 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F9420455 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 May 2005 20:27:38 -0700 Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j433RZhu012981; Mon, 2 May 2005 20:27:36 -0700 (PDT) content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Subject: RE: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69051E8A46@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Thread-Index: AcVPXC05KhZRhvn/TTGJPP+irpQHBQALAiSw From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Nicolas Williams" , "Jari Arkko" Cc: "Zorn, Glen" , , , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 20:31:16 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicolas Williams [mailto:Nicolas.Williams@sun.com]=20 > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 2:11 PM > To: Jari Arkko > Cc: Zorn, Glen; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; aboba@internaut.com;=20 > eap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP >=20 > On Fri, Apr 29, 2005 at 02:06:37PM +0300, Jari Arkko wrote: > > I tend to agree with Pasi here. Even if EAP is a two-party=20 > protocol,=20 > > the complete system consisting of AAA and some features of EAP have=20 > > more than two entities. For instance, EAP channel bindings=20 > specified=20 > > in RFC 3748 help the system to protect against compromise of=20 > > individual NASes through the system being aware of 3 entities, the=20 > > information about the NAS being in part communicated over EAP. >=20 > But note that the GSS-API also has a similar (bear with me)=20 > concept of channel bindings, yet the GSS-API itself is a=20 > two-party framework (though its mechanisms are free to=20 > involve additional parties). >=20 [Joe] The EAP concept of Channel Bindings may be slightly different than GSS-API. In GSS-API I think of channel bindings as being processed by the method; each side presents data to the method and the method checks to see if the data is the same. In EAP I think of channel bindings as an output from the method to be verified by the caller; each side presents data to the method and the method returns the other parties data to the caller. In this sense the usage of the term "channel bindings" in EAP is probably inappropriate (may be my fault for introducing it). The reason why it is better for the for the caller to evaluate is that the EAP channel binding is more akin to authorization data that is somewhat application specific. For example determining which ports are authorized to which authenticator can require more complexity than a simple binary comparison.=20 Since it is realy just protected data being sent EAP channel bingings could be implemented as GSS-API wrapped data. In some of the current threads dealing with "trusted third parties" it gets a bit more complex since a disctinction is being made between the the EAP-authenticator and the EAP-server and the EAP-Peer is expected to rely upon some entity hosting the EAP-Server to provide some authorization of the EAP-Authenticator. In this usage it seems to be important that the data is protected between the EAP-Peer and an entity that can act as a "trusted third party." This concept is not core to EAP itself since a peer typically is not expected to differentiate between a case where the EAP-Authenticator and EAP-Server are co-located or in different physical processes and not all methods are required to support EAP channel bindings. There is a draft, draft-arkko-eap-service-identity-auth-01.txt, that discusses one particular usage for EAP channel bindings, other usages have been discussed.=20 > I think imposing some formal structure and abstraction on EAP=20 > would go a long way to making these threads unnecessary :) >=20 [Joe] Yes I agree that it would be helpful. =20 > Nico > -- > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From nobody@baltimore.serverindo.net Mon May 2 23:30:06 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA19747 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [67.19.41.132] (helo=baltimore.serverindo.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DSoKc-0001vh-UK for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 23:44:24 -0400 Received: from nobody by baltimore.serverindo.net with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DSo6e-00029R-9n for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 02 May 2005 20:29:56 -0700 To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Voce recebeu uma Piada Animada FROM: mensageiro@humortadela.com.br content-type: text/html X-priority: 1 Received: from inter.net Received: from dot.net Message-Id: Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 20:29:56 -0700 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - baltimore.serverindo.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [99 99] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - baltimore.serverindo.net X-Spam-Score: 5.5 (+++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Alguém lembrou de você.
 
Olá,

Alguém que não tinha nada para fazer (Rafael), numa de suas visitas ao Humor Tadela não sei por que cargas d'água, lhe recomendou a seguinte página:

"Piada Animada: Será que é você?"

Comentários:

É dificil eu recomendar alguma coisa, porque foi muito engraçado quando eu vi, logo lembrei de você e decide mandar, concerteza você também irá gostar como eu gostei!

Abraços Rafael.

Ver Piada Animada.

Não se desespere! Temos um segundo link ativo abaixo:

http://humortadela.uol.com.br/piada_animada/index_336.html

Ou Acesse http://www.humortadela.com.br

Ainda não funcionou?

Bem, então chegou a hora de começar a se desesperar...


Turma do Humor Tadela

O maior site de humor da América Latina!
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From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 3 00:20:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA29325 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 00:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DDE5205EB; Tue, 3 May 2005 00:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5133205CB; Tue, 3 May 2005 00:20:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFBE920568 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 00:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B791D20506 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 00:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 May 2005 21:19:56 -0700 Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j434Jqb4021218; Mon, 2 May 2005 21:19:53 -0700 (PDT) content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Subject: RE: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69051E8A4B@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Thread-Index: AcVPWshzeYis7JlkSSSsNpkrt/apOQANqUMw From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Nicolas Williams" , "Zorn, Glen" Cc: , , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 21:23:33 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > I'm not sure how that is material: EAP is (or should be, IMHO) as=20 > > aware of things like RADIUS proxies or Diameter agents as=20 > HTTP is of=20 > > IP routers. >=20 > Right. Let's not confuse EAP with EAP methods. >=20 > EAP is a two-party framework into which EAP methods fit. > [Joe] Yes. =20 > Some EAP methods may require a third party, and sometimes=20 > that third party may be "collocated" with one of the EAP=20 > parties. But that would be a feature of the method, not of=20 > the framework (even if all EAP methods work that way in practice). > [Joe] With standard EAP this is true. When the discussion shifts to EAP channel bindings, AAA servers as trusted third parties, etc. the discussion is a bit muddled since these schemes expect the EAP-Peer to have knowledge of both the EAP-Authenticator and EAP-Server. This is a feature of the method since not all EAP methods would support this (requires authentication of the EAP-Server and some sort of channel binding), but it seems it involves entities in the EAP-Framework. =20 =20 > Much like the Kerberos V GSS-API mechanism is a three-party=20 > mechanism that fits in a two-party framework (the GSS-API). =20 > A variant which allowed for proxying of AS and TGS exchanges=20 > by a GSS acceptor would be very similar to the world of EAP. >=20 [Joe] This variant would work well in the standard EAP world. Note though that things may not be implemented quite that simply. For example one might expect EAP-TLS to be implemented with the EAP-Authenticator and EAP-Server as one logical and physical unit. This is often not the case and the EAP-Server is located away from the authenticator on a AAA server. This is like having the GSS-API tokens that encapsulate the KRB-AP message exchange between the client and the AAA server. In all cases the basic exchange is still a two party exchange. =20 =20 > I find it very useful to think of EAP this way as it allows=20 > me to impose, in my mind, a GSS-like abstract API on EAP methods. >=20 > Please correct me if this is wrong. >=20 [Joe] I think this is a useful way to think of things. There is additional complexity when the EAP-Peer is expected to have knowledge of the EAP-Authenticator and EAP-Server, however I don't think there is agreement in the working group on how (or if) this is supported. =20 > Cheers, >=20 > Nico > -- > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 3 00:47:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA04527 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 00:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB135205EB; Tue, 3 May 2005 00:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B233D20568; Tue, 3 May 2005 00:47:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8A920568 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 00:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Sun.COM [192.18.98.36]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7724820506 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 00:46:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from centralmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM ([129.147.62.1]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j434kai7009010 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 22:46:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by centralmail1brm.Central.Sun.COM (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id j434kZac019016 for ; Mon, 2 May 2005 22:46:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j434kUc6029914; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:46:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id j434kPjv029913; Mon, 2 May 2005 23:46:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Nicolas Williams To: "Salowey, Joe" Cc: "Zorn, Glen" , Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Message-ID: <20050503044625.GS28366@binky.Central.Sun.COM> References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69051E8A4B@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69051E8A4B@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 23:46:25 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 09:23:33PM -0700, Salowey, Joe wrote: > > Some EAP methods may require a third party, and sometimes > > that third party may be "collocated" with one of the EAP > > parties. But that would be a feature of the method, not of > > the framework (even if all EAP methods work that way in practice). > > > > [Joe] With standard EAP this is true. When the discussion shifts to EAP > channel bindings, AAA servers as trusted third parties, etc. the > discussion is a bit muddled since these schemes expect the EAP-Peer to > have knowledge of both the EAP-Authenticator and EAP-Server. This is a > feature of the method since not all EAP methods would support this > (requires authentication of the EAP-Server and some sort of channel > binding), but it seems it involves entities in the EAP-Framework. Your description of EAP channel bindings, to me, goes hand in hand with thinking of the EAP authenticator in passthrough methods as part of the network infrastructure. > > Much like the Kerberos V GSS-API mechanism is a three-party > > mechanism that fits in a two-party framework (the GSS-API). > > A variant which allowed for proxying of AS and TGS exchanges > > by a GSS acceptor would be very similar to the world of EAP. > > > > [Joe] This variant would work well in the standard EAP world. Note > though that things may not be implemented quite that simply. For example > one might expect EAP-TLS to be implemented with the EAP-Authenticator > and EAP-Server as one logical and physical unit. This is often not the > case and the EAP-Server is located away from the authenticator on a AAA > server. This is like having the GSS-API tokens that encapsulate the > KRB-AP message exchange between the client and the AAA server. In all > cases the basic exchange is still a two party exchange. Yeah, I see that. Thanks. > > I find it very useful to think of EAP this way as it allows > > me to impose, in my mind, a GSS-like abstract API on EAP methods. > > > > Please correct me if this is wrong. > > > > [Joe] I think this is a useful way to think of things. There is > additional complexity when the EAP-Peer is expected to have knowledge of > the EAP-Authenticator and EAP-Server, however I don't think there is > agreement in the working group on how (or if) this is supported. I don't see why it shouldn't be supported. It just has to be properly abstracted (and the methods properly built). Thanks. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 3 01:47:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA09353 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 01:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35681205F4; Tue, 3 May 2005 01:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E6220596; Tue, 3 May 2005 01:47:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED6020596 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 01:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50CAA2052E for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 01:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DSqEP-0000Qu-2C; Tue, 03 May 2005 01:46:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j435k3B24930; Mon, 2 May 2005 22:46:03 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: Nicolas Williams Cc: "Salowey, Joe" , "Zorn, Glen" , Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP In-Reply-To: <20050503044625.GS28366@binky.Central.Sun.COM> Message-ID: References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69051E8A4B@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> <20050503044625.GS28366@binky.Central.Sun.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 22:46:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > these schemes expect the EAP-Peer to have knowledge of both the > EAP-Authenticator and EAP-Server. I don't think this is necessarily true. For example, if the sever lower layer passes up opaque blobs to be transported via the method from the server to the peer, and then pushed back down to the peer lower layer for verification, then the method need have no knowledge of the media or of the authenticator. > Your description of EAP channel bindings, to me, goes hand in hand with > thinking of the EAP authenticator in passthrough methods as part of the > network infrastructure. In "pass-through" the EAP authenticator is no more a part of the EAP conversation than a router is part of a TCP conversation between two endpoints. > A variant which allowed for proxying of AS and TGS exchanges > by a GSS acceptor would be very similar to the world of EAP. Such a method was specified, but never implemented (EAP-GSS). _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 3 03:22:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA07348 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC718205F4; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 645AB20508; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:22:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B44520508 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from guri.intoto.com (ip-66-80-10-146.dsl.sca.megapath.net [66.80.10.146]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6024E204B2 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 03:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brahma.intotoind.com ([172.16.1.10]) by guri.intoto.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.0.59) with SMTP id M2005050300202002715 for ; Tue, 03 May 2005 00:20:20 -0700 Received: from sureshvv.intotoinc.com (2mc66.intotoind.com [172.16.2.66]) by brahma.intotoind.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j437KvgN008093 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 12:50:58 +0530 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050503125207.0279b9f8@172.16.1.10> X-Sender: sureshvv@172.16.1.10 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 To: eap@frascone.com From: Suresh Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.41 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] EAP identifier in success/failure packets. 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If you prefer not to receive such offers go here: http://g.msn.com/0MNBUS00/1?http://www.jettisonit.com/dip/r.php --947643809-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 3 08:23:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA10895 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:23:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F394205FA; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF34C205F4; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:23:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D787C205F4 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:22:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD14E205E8 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F63889844; Tue, 3 May 2005 15:22:17 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42776CFF.1090101@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yoshihiro Ohba Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Approach to channel bindings (Was; Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP) References: <049a01c54cf4$7213f950$291d9069@sisa.samsung.com> <20050502025959.GF1876@steelhead> <4275D47C.8080008@piuha.net> <20050502135503.GI1876@steelhead> <42766A96.5000704@piuha.net> <20050502173456.GL1876@steelhead> In-Reply-To: <20050502173456.GL1876@steelhead> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 15:22:23 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Yoshihiro, >I don't really think that the peer and the AAA server need to be >syncronized about the exact parameters (that's why opaque blob can be >used for channel bindings), while I do think that the peer and the >authenticator (NAS) need to be synchronized about them. > >Also, I think that the peer and the authenticator need to be >synchronized about the parameters even in the case of stand-alone >authenticator (i.e., no AAA protocol) in order to avoid MiTM in >between. In this case, the EAP lower-layer is surely able to bind the >AAA-Key to the parameters (binding based on using the parameters in >the key derivation algorithm) without carrying the parameters in the >EAP method. I think we should use the same way of binding regardless >of whether there is a pass-through authenticator or not. Otherwise, >if we use one channel binding method for the stand-alone authenticator >case and another channel binding method for the backend authenticator >case, it would not make the pass-through authenticator transparent to >the EAP peer. > > I wonder if we are talking about the same thing here. I agree with what you say is needed, but it seems like the above is more like the secure capabilities negotiation requirement that we have placed on the Secure Association Protocol. As others have pointed out, the term channel binding may not be the best choice. But at least the way it is defined in RFC 3748 and the keying draft it seems to talk about an ability to match two independent sources of information to each other: Using such a protected exchange, it is possible to match the channel properties provided by the authenticator via out-of-band mechanisms against those exchanged within the EAP method. Where discrepancies are found, these SHOULD be logged; additional actions MAY also be taken, such as denying access. To me this implies that we can't get this type of channel binding without exchanging information on all sides of the peer - auth - server triangle. But perhaps we are talking about who should make the final check, is it the peer, authenticator, server, or all of them. I've been assuming it would be either the peer or the server, or possibly both of them. What you have said has lead me to reconsider this a bit. Perhaps all of the parties have an interest in making sure the others are not fooling them. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 3 08:33:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA11797 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5BC5205FE; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309F7205F5; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:33:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84EE205F5 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swip.net (mailfe05.swip.net [212.247.154.129]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CEA5205F4 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:32:21 -0400 (EDT) X-T2-Posting-ID: TlrHmwDFCX01iQZd0Fm6v3T8FBlCqve5GwI1mWaefYU= Received: from [83.179.7.160] (HELO DELL.tele2.fr) by mailfe05.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3c5) with ESMTP id 159866240 for eap@frascone.com; Tue, 03 May 2005 14:27:53 +0200 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20050503141411.03628b70@infres.enst.fr> X-Sender: eu968071@pop.tele2.fr X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 To: eap@frascone.com From: Pascal Urien Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] Tests Vectors for EAP-AKA Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 14:27:54 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Hi Every Body, I am currently testing an EAP-AKA smartcard, but unfortunately not test vectors are available in the EAP-AKA draft. I got the following vectors (see below) , which should be included in the next version of the draft 'draft-urien-eap-smartcard-07.txt ' I should be great if some body could check these values and my understanding of the EAP-AKA protocol. Pascal http://www.infres.enst.fr/~urien/openeapsmartcard NB EAP-AKA seems to work in JC2.2 16KB smartcards. Authentication times are less than 6s. Tests Vectors for EAP-AKA ===================== // Select EAP_APPLICATION Tx: 00A40400 07 11 22 33 44 55 66 01 Rx: 9000 // Verify User PIN ('0000') Tx: A020000004 30303030 Rx: 9000 // Set-Identity ('zzz') type=AKA Tx: A0 16 00 80 03 7A7A7A // 90 00 // EAP-Identity request Tx: A0 80 00 00 05 01A4 0005 01 // Identity.response: anonymous@dot.com Rx: 02 A4 00 16 01 61 6E 6F 6E 79 6D 6F 75 73 40 64 6F 74 2E 63 6F 6D 90 00 // EAP-AKA GET AT_PERMANENT_ID_REQ: aka@dot.com Tx: A0 80 00 00 0A 01A6 000A 1705 0A01 0000 Rx: 02 A6 00 16 17 05 0E 04 00 0B 61 6B 61 40 64 6F 74 2E 63 6F 6D 00 90 00 //================= // Milenage Values= //================= // These values are imported from // 3GPP TS 35.207 V5.0.0 (2002-06), // sections 4.3-Test set 1 and 6.3-Test set 1 // K: 465b5ce8 b199b49f aa5f0a2e e238a6bc // OP: cdc202d5 123e20f6 2b6d676a c72cb318 // SQN: ff9bb4d0b607 // AMF: b9b9 // RAND:23553cbe 9637a89d 218ae64d ae47bf35 // f1|f1*: 4A 9F FA C3 54 DF AF B3 01 CF AF 9E C4 E8 71 E9 // f2/sres A5 42 11 D5 E3 BA 50 BF // f3/ck B4 0B A9 A3 C5 8B 2A 05 BB F0 D9 87 B2 1B F8 CB // f4/ik F7 69 BC D7 51 04 46 04 12 76 72 71 1C 6D 34 41 // f5/ak AA 68 9C 64 83 70 // f5*/ak2 45 1E 8B EC A4 3B //============================= // Values for XKEY & PRF(XKEY)= //============================= // // ID: 61 6B 61 40 64 6F 74 2E 63 6F 6D = aka@dot.com // IK: F7 69 BC D7 51 04 46 04 12 76 72 71 1C 6D 34 41 // CK: B4 0B A9 A3 C5 8B 2A 05 BB F0 D9 87 B2 1B F8 CB // XKEY = sha1(ID|IK|CK) = C4 83 4F 21 BE AD F0 9E 7A 3B E8 17 97 5A BA 99 DD B4 0C 9A // PRF(XKEY) // K_Encr: 28 FF 32 38 42 05 6B 55 4B 85 A5 11 16 34 5A A4 // K_Auth: B3 08 06 82 48 8E 68 6F AC 3E 1C F8 24 8E 73 63 // MSK: BE 12 98 C0 B5 33 8C 91 D6 E1 1B 33 AE 7D 46 2D // E2 99 64 64 0C F5 05 FF 26 AE D5 98 82 2D 41 F9 // 20 AF 49 FD CB 77 00 8C 2A AC DB A3 A1 AE 79 75 // 20 8C 25 E5 40 17 5D 22 D5 48 0C DE 88 D7 90 33 // EMSK: CD 10 C9 14 BB 54 DC 97 AE E8 96 06 67 F8 C8 59 // 12 44 DF E7 BD 4A C1 B1 6E 63 1B 4D FA 5D F6 97 // 4A 4C 51 F5 D8 19 FE 68 E7 37 0F 9E 47 43 9B 43 FD 6E 83 CC 35 7A 01 E7 16 57 F3 BE 6D 26 4A 2B //========================================= // Test #1 : FULL AUTHENTICATION, GOOD #SEQ //========================================= //AT_RAND AT_AUTN AT_MAC Tx: A0 80 00 00 42 01A5 0042 1701 01050000 23553cbe 9637a89d 218ae64d ae47bf35 02050000 55F328B43577 b9b9 4A9FFAC354DFAFB3 0B050000 F262DECDCC1302CB4B527672E251422C // AT_RES AT_MAC Rx: 02A5 0026 1701 03030040 A54211D5 E3BA50BF 0B050000 D6859267FC560146EB637FD8660942 // Get MSK Tx: A0 A6 00 00 40 Rx: 20 AF 49 FD CB 77 00 8C 2A AC DB A3 A1 AE 79 75 20 8C 25 E5 40 17 5D 22 D5 48 0C DE 88 D7 90 33 BE 12 98 C0 B5 33 8C 91 D6 E1 1B 33 AE 7D 46 2D E2 99 64 64 0C F5 05 FF 26 AE D5 98 82 2D 41 F9 //========================================== // Test #2 : FULL AUTHENTICATION, WRONG #SEQ //========================================== Tx: A0 80 00 00 42 01A5 0042 1701 01050000 23553cbe 9637a89d 218ae64d ae47bf35 02050000 55F328B43577 b9b9 4A9FFAC354DFAFB3 0B050000 F262DECDCC1302CB4B527672E251422C // AT_AUTS = AK2+SEQ | MAC-S Rx: 02A5 0016 1704 0404 BA853F3C1233 01CFAF9EC4E871E9 // AK2 = 45 1E 8B EC A4 3B // SEQ = ff 9b b4 d0 b6 08 // MAC-S= 01 CF AF 9E C4 E8 71 E9 //========================================== // Test #3 : FULL AUTHENTICATION, WRONG MAC= //========================================== Tx: A0 80 00 00 42 01A5 0042 1701 01050000 23553cbe 9637a89d 218ae64d ae47bf36 02050000 55F328B43577 b9b9 4A9FFAC354DFAFB3 0B050000 F262DECDCC1302CB4B527672E251422C // AKA-Authentication-Reject Rx: 02 A5 00 06 17 02 90 00 //=========================================== // Test #4 : Full Authentication + PSEUDO_ID= //=========================================== // AT_RAND AT_AUTN AT_ENCR AT_MAC // AT_ENCR: 82090000 8205000D 31323334 31323334 31323334 31000000 06030000 00000000 00000000 Tx: A0 80 00 00 7A 01A5 007A 1701 01050000 23553cbe 9637a89d 218ae64d ae47bf35 02050000 55F328B43577 b9b9 4A9FFAC354DFAFB3 81050000 12345678 12345678 12345678 12345678 82090000 819dcaf9e851072d660a36fb79d96c096ac36f2e58d6e32d3fc848699da076d4 0B050000 BCB23D96BE3855BDE867A2557977FAB6 // AT_RES AT_MAC Rx: 02A5 0026 1701 03030040 A54211D5 E3BA50BF 0B050000 D6859267FC560146EB637FD8660942CF // GET AT_FULLAUTH_ID_REQ = '12341234123412341@dot.com' Tx: A0 80 00 00 0A 01A6 000A 1705 1101 0000 Rx: 02 A6 00 22 1705 0E070015 3132333431323334313233343140646F742E636F6D000000 9000 // GET AT_PERMANENT_ID_REQ = 'aka@dot.com' Tx: A0 80 00 00 0A 01A6 000A 1705 0A01 0000 Rx: 02 A6 00 16 17 05 0E 04 00 0B 61 6B 61 40 64 6F 74 2E 63 6F 6D 00 90 00 //=========================================== // Test #5 : Full Authentication + ReAUTH_ID= //=========================================== // AT_RAND AT_AUTN AT_ENCR AT_MAC // AT_ENCR: 82090000 8505000D 31323334 31323334 31323334 31000000 06030000 00000000 00000000 Tx: A0 80 00 00 7A 01A5 007A 1701 01050000 23553cbe 9637a89d 218ae64d ae47bf35 02050000 55F328B43577 b9b9 4A9FFAC354DFAFB3 81050000 12345678 12345678 12345678 12345678 82090000 49e8e4be4245261189afe3a1e913953f4a966dbe53d621a8cc771072da7b1964 0B050000 ac4da101ef7450f5285700655dc6c6d0 // AT_RES AT_MAC Rx: 02A5 0026 1701 03030040 A54211D5 E3BA50BF 0B050000 D6859267FC560146EB637FD8660942 // GET AT_ANY_ID_REQ: '1234123412341' Tx: A0 80 00 00 0A 01A6 000A 1705 0D01 0000 Rx: 02 A6 00 1A 17 05 0E 05 00 0D 31 32 33 34 31 32 33 34 31 32 33 34 31 00 00 00 90 00 //=============================== // Test #6: ReAUTH + GoodCounter= //=============================== // XKEY' = SHA1(Identity|counter|NONCE_S|MK) // Identity = "31323334 31323334 31323334 31" // Counter= "0000" + // NONCE= "12345678 12345678 12345678 12345678" // MK = "BE1298C0B5338C91D6E11B33AE7D462DE29964640CF505FF26AED598822D41F9" // "20AF49FDCB77008C2AACDBA3A1AE7975208C25E540175D22D5480CDE88D79033" // XKEY'= 5f83882b27d5793c01a512f5ed300e6759e64974 // PRF(XKEY') = 7a9d9d7e5ca72ef90b63cc466c4a9d0d6a6a5506a56f978d2adea27db5176c3f // 3abe04e06673ca3e58c85e6fd01f7cef9bd210a143917e90978aaf3eb4539747 // AT_IV AT_ENCR AT_MAC // ENCR: 82090000 13010000 15050000 12345678 12345678 12345678 12345678 85020004 31323334 Tx: A0 80 00 00 52 01A5 0052 170D 81050000 12345678 12345678 12345678 12345678 82090000 5a88776e7dcb10737d3d3ab76a380b8995263616453079a49f7dc97f15596b2c 0B050000 bbb04ed146da523ee632d1cf6e50f97d // AT_ENCR AT_COUNTER AT_NONCE_S AT_NEXT_REAUTH_ID // AT_ENCR: 82090000 13010000 15050000 12345678 12345678 12345678 12345678 85020004 31323334 Rx: 02 A5 00 52 17 0D 81 05 00 00 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 82 09 00 00 FE 69 18 6B AA E2 DE 0E A6 1B 0A A3 18 B2 1F 51 50 60 BA 59 0C 6C A9 84 0E 6D 6A 66 C2 34 0F E6 0B 05 00 00 01 09 00 41 14 23 A6 A3 78 3B 98 E6 ED C5 EF C6 90 00 // Get MSK Tx: A0 A6 00 00 40 Rx: 3A BE 04 E0 66 73 CA 3E 58 C8 5E 6F D0 1F 7C EF 9B D2 10 A1 43 91 7E 90 97 8A AF 3E B4 53 97 47 7A 9D 9D 7E 5C A7 2E F9 0B 63 CC 46 6C 4A 9D 0D 6A 6A 55 06 A5 6F 97 8D 2A DE A2 7D B5 17 6C 3F //============================== // Test #7: ReAUTH,WrongCounter= //============================== // AT_IV AT_ENCR AT_MAC // AT_ENCR: 82090000 13010000 15050000 12345678 12345678 12345678 12345678 85020004 31323334 Tx: A0 80 00 00 52 01A5 0052 170D 81050000 12345678 12345678 12345678 12345678 82090000 5a88776e7dcb10737d3d3ab76a380b8995263616453079a49f7dc97f15596b2c 0B050000 bbb04ed146da523ee632d1cf6e50f97d // AT_ENCR AT_COUNTER_TOO_SMALL AT_COUNTER AT_PADDING // AT_ENCR: 82050000 14010000 13010000 06020000 00000000 Rx: 02 A5 00 42 17 0D 81 05 00 00 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 A5 82 05 00 00 76 74 0A 5C AD 91 64 CD EB 1F C3 A5 6A 63 38 E7 0B 05 00 00 4C F3 CC 2F 47 7A 3B 24 C1 28 92 04 3F 91 59 E7 90 00 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 3 08:53:27 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA12911 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FBA20602; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70EAE205FE; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:53:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4164F205FE for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:52:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A96D205F8 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 08:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1CF89881; Tue, 3 May 2005 15:52:18 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42777408.9040203@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Salowey, Joe" Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69051E8A45@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69051E8A45@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 15:52:24 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe, >>I usually refer to the system as the "network access control >>system", though this works only when EAP is used where it was >>originally intended to be used. The system consists of >>clients, NASes, proxies, and servers, and has three main >>protocols: >> >>- First hop, either on L2 (e.g. 802.11i) or L3 (e.g. PANA, IKEv2) >>- AAA, running between NASes and servers in a fashion where >> the existence of the proxies is visible and known to the protocol >>- EAP, running between the client and the servers, unaware >> of NASes unless channel bindings are being provided >> >> >> > >[Joe] It would be better if EAP is unaware of NASes even if channel >bindings are being provided. If EAP methods are going to remain >agnostic of their lower layers then this sort of information should be >passed out of the EAP method for the encapsulating layer to deal with. > > Yes, I think you are right. Let me try to rephrase: - EAP, running between the client and the servers. EAP is unaware of NASes. NASes may be used for forwarding EAP messages back and forth, similar to how routers forward IP packets belonging to end-to-end TCP connections. Also, some information about the NAS may be exchanged over EAP between the peer and the server (this may happen irrespective of the NAS and the server being in the same node or not). Such information is typically opaque data from the point of view of EAP, since EAP is media independent. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 3 09:41:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA17769 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E2820611; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02A2320604; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:41:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC8220604 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74D320600 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F1189844; Tue, 3 May 2005 16:40:47 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42777F65.6090300@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rafa Marin Lopez Cc: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: EAP key binding discussion References: <4270EEDD.3070706@dif.um.es> In-Reply-To: <4270EEDD.3070706@dif.um.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 16:40:53 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rafa Marin Lopez wrote: > After I read this, I think it seems to be similar to PANA when PAA is > not colocated in the EP for example in the wireless LAN > model(http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pana-framework-03.txt). > > In fact PaC/EAP peer can derive one PMK per each EP/AP > controlled by PAA. PAA can derive the same keys that would send to > different EPs controlled by this PAA (how to derive PMKs per each > EP/AP derived from AAA-key that PAA receives from AAA is ongoing > work). So PAA would be like your LKDC. However PAA is also acting as > NAS that is a difference what you propose. > > On the other hand , when a EAP peer moves to another EP/AP controlled > by another LKDC then we are moving the problem to allow a fast handoff > between LKDCs. In the case of PANA , it is being treated in > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bournelle-pana-ctp-02.txt > and http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pana-mobopts-00.txt > Moving the key controller node higher in the hierarchy does help a lot. Both in your example above as well as in various L2 concentrator designs. Regarding the derivation of "PMKs" per EP, isn't that already specified in Section 5 of draft-ietf-pana-ipsec-05.txt -- the keys are different per EP address and session ID. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 3 09:49:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA18495 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C87E20615; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88B1A20609; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:49:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008A020609 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9946420604 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j43DmNnf026269; Tue, 3 May 2005 22:48:23 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j43DmOVR026857; Tue, 3 May 2005 22:48:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id YAA26856 ; Tue, 3 May 2005 22:48:24 +0900 Received: from mx2.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j43DmN6X005837; Tue, 3 May 2005 22:48:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j43DmNnT028950; Tue, 3 May 2005 22:48:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j43DmN4a021498; Tue, 3 May 2005 22:48:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead ([172.30.24.114]) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IFX00GT72CCIB@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Tue, 3 May 2005 22:48:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DSxHb-0003Sy-00; Tue, 03 May 2005 06:17:51 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: Approach to channel bindings (Was; Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP) In-reply-to: <42776CFF.1090101@piuha.net> To: Jari Arkko Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba , eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050503131751.GO1876@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i References: <049a01c54cf4$7213f950$291d9069@sisa.samsung.com> <20050502025959.GF1876@steelhead> <4275D47C.8080008@piuha.net> <20050502135503.GI1876@steelhead> <42766A96.5000704@piuha.net> <20050502173456.GL1876@steelhead> <42776CFF.1090101@piuha.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:17:51 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Hi Jari, On Tue, May 03, 2005 at 03:22:23PM +0300, Jari Arkko wrote: > > > I wonder if we are talking about the same thing here. I agree with > what you say is needed, but it seems like the above is more like the > secure capabilities negotiation requirement that we have placed on > the Secure Association Protocol. It looks like so. In fact, I am currently thinking that (so-called) channel binding should be part of secure association. > > As others have pointed out, the term channel binding may not be > the best choice. But at least the way it is defined in RFC 3748 and > the keying draft it seems to talk about an ability to match two > independent sources of information to each other: > > Using such a protected exchange, it is possible to match the channel > properties provided by the authenticator via out-of-band mechanisms > against those exchanged within the EAP method. Where discrepancies > are found, these SHOULD be logged; additional actions MAY also be > taken, such as denying access. > > To me this implies that we can't get this type of channel binding > without exchanging information on all sides of the peer - auth - server > triangle. Yes. > > But perhaps we are talking about who should make the final > check, is it the peer, authenticator, server, or all of them. I think this is a good catch of the essentials. > I've > been assuming it would be either the peer or the server, or > possibly both of them. What you have said has lead me to > reconsider this a bit. Perhaps all of the parties have an interest > in making sure the others are not fooling them. Thank you, Yoshihiro Ohba > > --Jari > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 3 09:54:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA19116 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4A620619; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7056B2060B; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:54:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C712060B for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CDD920604 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 09:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EB8889844; Tue, 3 May 2005 16:53:45 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4277826E.6080001@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: EAP key binding discussion References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 16:53:50 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Madjid, >Thank you for taking the time and responding. I agree with most of the things you said, but reading your last comments, I think I need to clarify myself. The NAS does not tell the AAA server that it is the LKDC. It simply informs the AAA server which LKDC it wants the key materials to be sent. > > Hmm... security-wise there might not be a big difference, if you can send keys to an entity that is in the attacker's control. But a lot depends on exactly how the kdc would be used. If the server has been configured with the identifiers of the NASes that a supported by a particular kdc, then its not an issue. But this seems hard to achieve in practise. >We need a midlevel in the hierarchy between AAA server and NAS to keep the AAA-key at, generate AAABS keys for each NAS, but keep the AAA-key from the NAS to prevent the domino effect. > > AAA server > / | \ > LKDC1 LKDC2 LKDC3 > / | \ /|\ /|\ > NAS1 NAS2 NAS3 > >Please note that in the suggested approach the KDCs are out of the EAP auth-path, which means the AAA server does not know where the KDC for a NAS and its neighbors are. > Yes, I've been wondering about that. Keeping the KDC out of path appears to create additional issues in terms of finding it using existing AAA protocols, possibly more roundtrips. The other alternative would be to use existing proxies for a new purpose. This may be undesirable too, for other purposes. >That is why the NAS1 needs to send an AVP to AAA server including KDC1 ID (so AAA server does not have to keep NAS-KDC state and the network architecture can be flexible with load balancing). >The AAA server will send the AAA-key to a KDC only if it has a AAAserver-KDC SA to protect the AAA key. > > What kind of AAAServer-KDC SA are we talking about? Are we expecting this to work in a roaming scenario? Does isp1.fi need to get a SA with access2.ca KDC before users can roam there, above and beyond what has already been set up for other AAA transactions? >For RADIUS we need a request/ response signaling started from KDC to get the AAA-key, which in turn means the NAS must send a trigger to the KDC (after EAP success possibly). >This way the round trip to AAA server is reduced to roundtrip to LKDC which can be collocated with local mobility manager. > >All we are changing here is that we are saying "send the AAA key" to the KDC rather than to NAS. It is unconventional but is it less secure? I am not sure? It is more secure than just sending the AAA key to the first NAS. >But I appreciate all the help we can get with the threat analysis. > > --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From KeturahHoyl1379@galileofoods.com Tue May 3 14:17:06 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17480 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 14:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200505031817.OAA17480@ietf.org> Received: from dsl81-215-1570.adsl.ttnet.net.tr ([81.215.6.34] helo=galileofoods.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DT2B7-0000Sz-9F for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 03 May 2005 14:31:31 -0400 From: "Keturah Hoyle" To: "Oni Hollis" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?ViAGR=E0_V=E0L1UM_C=ECAL1SS?= Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 14:16:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C54EF7.4277CE26" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 8.1 (++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C54EF7.4277CE26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, bombardment, Cartagena sent offers of surrender to M. de Rivarol. 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From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 3 18:55:05 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20767 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 18:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A086205E7; Tue, 3 May 2005 18:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD21205F3; Tue, 3 May 2005 18:55:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD0D205E7 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 18:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from motgate7.mot.com (motgate7.mot.com [129.188.136.7]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C1B20435 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 18:54:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by motgate7.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate7) with ESMTP id j43MhYUO001220 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 15:43:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from il02exm13.corp.mot.com (il02exm13.corp.mot.com [10.0.111.24]) by il06exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j43MvDk3015564 for ; Tue, 3 May 2005 17:57:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: by il02exm13 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 3 May 2005 17:54:45 -0500 Message-ID: <1B631E11D496D711BB2800065BFCB6A11B7A6F97@il02exm13> From: Narayanan Vidya-CVN065 To: "'Jari Arkko'" Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] EAP, AAA and Handovers MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 17:54:40 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Jari, Thanks for responding. Please see some questions inline below. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net] > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 4:15 AM > To: Narayanan Vidya-CVN065 > Cc: eap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [eap] EAP, AAA and Handovers > > > Narayanan Vidya-CVN065 wrote: > > > All, > > There has been discussion on handovers and EAP lately on > the list, so > > I thought I'd post this question to the group. There is general > > agreement that handovers require faster re-authentication > and that EAP > > doesn't necessarily provide that by default, as the > roundtrip to the > > AAA server and the number of messages involved may take away from > > that. Pre-authentication helps, but not all that much if the AAA > > server is many, many hops away and is also dependent on how far in > > advance of the handover the client initiates the pre-authentication. > > > Yes. There seems to be many different cases and environments > here, alternative solutions are likely to work best in > different cases. In any case, we are talking about a fairly > complicated piece of functionality. Lets be careful to not > make this too complicated, using the simpler techniques until > it is shown that they are insufficient for important cases. > Agreed. Simpler the better - but, we do need to ensure that the approach satisfies the security criteria required. > > Server-initiated RADIUS is possible, I believe, but I'm not > sure if it > works for > this particular case where no prior contact exists. > As described in the aaaarch-handoff draft, it seems feasible to me. I am assuming, however, that there exists SAs between the AAA server and all the NAS-es in the domain. Am I missing something else? > > > I believe there are two parts in your approach #2: the > separate keys and the delivery. The keying framework supports > the separate key approach, for security reasons. It doesn't > talk much about the delivery part. Obviously, various > delivery options are possible, such as fast-reauth and > delivery of key, plain key request without auth, and > proactive key distribution. > Yes. In order to support something like proactive key distribution, we would need something similar to the aaaarch-handoff draft to be advanced, right? I am not sure if that draft will entirely solve the issue at hand, but it seems like a good starting point. But, I have not seen any activity in that space. Is this because there is sufficient risk and/or complexity in such an approach? Or, is it because the alternatives are more attractive? Or perhaps some other reason that I am missing? Thanks, Vidya _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From EJLJX@hotmail.com Wed May 4 04:17:30 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA04449; Wed, 4 May 2005 04:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [201.137.173.40] (helo=dsl-201-137-173-40.prod-infinitum.com.mx) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DTFIR-00060T-Ht; Wed, 04 May 2005 04:32:03 -0400 Received: from chip.anu.differentiable.au ([72.81.80.36] helo=anu.westbound.au) by smtp0.depressor.co with esmtp id 1A5Ys6-224173-22 Message-ID: Sender: freeradius-devel-EJLJX@hotmail.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.1 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 21:14:50 -0300 From: "Kristina Mahoney" To: eap-archive@ietf.org Cc: edu-team@ietf.org, edu-team-web-archive@ietf.org, entmib@ietf.org, entmib-admin@ietf.org, entmib-request@ietf.org, enum@ietf.org, enum-admin@ietf.org, enum-archive@ietf.org, enum-request@ietf.org, geopriv@ietf.org Subject: Ffree Unlimited Cable Movies mk X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Introducing "2005 Digital Cable Filters" Equipped with latest pass-through technology video bypass chip. 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Best Regards, Noe Mayes; Senior Account Director Trades/Fin ance Department South Office From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 4 07:39:11 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA23163 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD792064A; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:39:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B5A620645; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:39:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3B720645 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36FC720640 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5BB89881 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 14:38:13 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4278B42B.5060804@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eap@frascone.com References: <200505031954.PAA27779@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <200505031954.PAA27779@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-arkko-eap-service-identity-auth-02.txt Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 14:38:19 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI. This is a small update. Changes include e.g. specifying that EAP and EAP method layers should treat the information as opaque. >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > > Title : Authenticated Service Information for the Extensible > Authentication Protocol (EAP) > Author(s) : J. Arkko, P. Eronen > Filename : draft-arkko-eap-service-identity-auth-02.txt > Pages : 21 > Date : 2005-5-3 > >EAP is usually used in an arrangement where the actual service (such > as a wireless LAN access point) is separated from the authentication > server. However, EAP itself does not have a concept of a service > identity or its parameters, and thus the client usually does not > authenticate any information about the service itself, even when a > mutually authenticating EAP method is used. This document specifies > a backward compatible extension to popular EAP methods for > authenticating service related information, such as the identity and > type of the offered service. A common parameter name space is > created in order to ensure that the same kinds of identifiers can be > authenticated independent of the choice of the EAP authentication > method. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-eap-service-identity-auth-02.txt > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 4 07:49:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA24269 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2E920649; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91F92037A; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:49:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 202F02037A for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:48:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9DBA20372 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 07:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC01B89881; Wed, 4 May 2005 14:48:43 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4278B6A1.6010507@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "T. Charles Clancy" Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] eap pax expert review References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 14:48:49 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks good to me. --Jari T. Charles Clancy wrote: > [Sorry if this gets posted twice -- the first time I sent it from the > wrong email address, so it's in the moderator's queue.] > > Jari, thanks for your time and your review. I've put together -03 to > address your comments and updates some of the references. I will be > submitting it shortly. Meanwhile, a copy can be found here: > > http://www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy/eap-pax/draft-clancy-eap-pax-03.txt > >> [JA] Also, I didn't review compliance to IEEE method requirements. >> (Any takers?) > > > For anyone interested in this, it's outlined in the last paragraph of > the introduction. > >> [JA] The claim for "cryptographic binding" (RFC 3748, Section 7.2.1) >> is not documented for PAX, as this claim is relevant for tunnel >> methods only. But for completeness sake it would be desirable to >> mention why its not being listed. > > > Ah... I have channel binding but not cryptographic binding. I've added > it to section 4.3. > >> [JA] (Editorial note: the document talks explicitly about >> the conditions upon which an EAP Failure needs to be sent. >> However, while it can be understood and implied, it doesn't >> actually say that an EAP Success should be sent otherwise.) > > > I've added the following to section 2.4: > > If PAX-ACK is received in response to a message fragment, the receiver > continues the protocol execution. If PAX-ACK is received in response > to PAX_STD-3 or PAX_SEC-5, then the server MUST send an EAP-Success > message. This indicates a successful execution of PAX. > >> [JA] Regarding RFC 3748 Section 7.8 (optional) behaviour for >> detecting bidding down attacks using Naks, EAP PAX does not do this. >> Might be useful to note this. > > > I've added the following to section 4.3: > > EAP is susceptible to an attack where an attacker uses NAKs to > convince an EAP client and server to use a less secure method, and can > be prevented using method-specific integrity protection on NAK > messages. Since EAP-PAX does not have suitable keys derived for this > integrity protection at the begining of a PAX conversation, this is > not included. > >> [BA] It would be useful to have PAX document the key name and scope, >> as in Appendix E in the Key Management framework. > > > I've added the following to section 2.3: > > The EAP Key Managment Framework [I-D.ietf-eap-keying] recommends > specification of key names and scope. The EAP-PAX Method-ID is the > MID value computed as described above. The EAP peer name is the CID > value exchanged in PAX_STD-2 and PAX_SEC-2. The EAP server name is > an empty string. > > [ t. charles clancy ]--[ tcc@umd.edu ]--[ www.cs.umd.edu/~clancy ] > [ computer science ]-----[ university of maryland | college park ] > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 4 08:16:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA27258 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 08:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC5D2064A; Wed, 4 May 2005 08:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCC320635; Wed, 4 May 2005 08:16:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDD1D20635 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 08:15:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xenon2.telemat.um.es (mail.um.es [155.54.212.105]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2162037A for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 08:15:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xenon2.telemat.um.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id B823123C267; Wed, 4 May 2005 14:15:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from xenon2.telemat.um.es ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (xenon2 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 08310-01-79; Wed, 4 May 2005 14:15:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [155.54.210.9] (dibulibu.um.es [155.54.1.250]) by xenon2.telemat.um.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3585F23C273; Wed, 4 May 2005 14:15:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4278BCDB.5050704@dif.um.es> From: Rafa Marin Lopez User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jari Arkko Cc: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: EAP key binding discussion References: <4270EEDD.3070706@dif.um.es> <42777F65.6090300@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: <42777F65.6090300@piuha.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at telemat.um.es X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 14:15:23 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jari. Thanks for your answer ... please see below Jari Arkko wrote: > Rafa Marin Lopez wrote: > >> After I read this, I think it seems to be similar to PANA when PAA is >> not colocated in the EP for example in the wireless LAN >> model(http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pana-framework-03.txt). >> >> In fact PaC/EAP peer can derive one PMK per each EP/AP >> controlled by PAA. PAA can derive the same keys that would send to >> different EPs controlled by this PAA (how to derive PMKs per each >> EP/AP derived from AAA-key that PAA receives from AAA is ongoing >> work). So PAA would be like your LKDC. However PAA is also acting as >> NAS that is a difference what you propose. >> >> On the other hand , when a EAP peer moves to another EP/AP controlled >> by another LKDC then we are moving the problem to allow a fast >> handoff between LKDCs. In the case of PANA , it is being treated in >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bournelle-pana-ctp-02.txt >> and http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pana-mobopts-00.txt >> > Moving the key controller node higher in the hierarchy does help a lot. Agree > > Both in your example above as well as in various L2 concentrator designs. > > Regarding the derivation of "PMKs" per EP, isn't that already specified > in Section 5 of draft-ietf-pana-ipsec-05.txt -- the keys are different > per EP > address and session ID. True. Now what I was wondering if EAP key management framework allows a KDC hierarchy ... any thought about this? Thanks. > > > --Jari > > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > > -- ------------------------------------------------------ Rafael Marin Lopez Faculty of Computer Science-University of Murcia 30071 Murcia - Spain Telf: +34968367645 e-mail: rafa@dif.um.es ------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 4 09:07:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03838 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 09:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2C920653; Wed, 4 May 2005 09:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AD8220647; Wed, 4 May 2005 09:07:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB35A20647 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 09:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.int-evry.fr (smtp2.int-evry.fr [157.159.10.45]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F37A20633 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 09:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ipv6-3.int-evry.fr (ipv6-3.int-evry.fr [157.159.100.76]) by smtp2.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C6278036 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 15:06:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jb by ipv6-3.int-evry.fr with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DTJXx-0001kU-0y for eap@frascone.com; Wed, 04 May 2005 15:04:13 +0200 From: Julien Bournelle To: eap@frascone.com Message-ID: <20050504130413.GY4651@ipv6-3.int-evry.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-INT-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-INT-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jb@int-evry.fr X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] Clarifications on "Domino effect" Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 15:04:13 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Hi all, In RFC4017, the Domino effect is described: "Compromise of a single authenticator cannot compromise any other part of the system, including session keys and long-term secrets." Does this finally imply that the authenticator MUST not provide keys to other entity ? regards, -- julien.bournelle at int-evry.fr _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From qunli1628@163.net Wed May 4 09:55:41 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09885 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 09:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200505041355.JAA09885@ietf.org> Received: from [219.133.26.150] (helo=163.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DTKZs-0007Hz-K1 for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 04 May 2005 10:10:17 -0400 From: =?GB2312?B?ye7b2si6waa/xry8?= Subject: =?GB2312?B?v+zL2deo0rXJz8PFzqzQ3rXnxNQ=?= To: eap-archive@ietf.org Content-Type: text/html;charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 21:55:37 +0800 X-Priority: 2 X-Mailer: FoxMail 3.11 Release [cn] X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-NONENGLISH: Subject contains non-English characters X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ÎÞ±êÌâÎĵµ
 
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From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 4 10:20:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13283 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224F920657; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF0CB20653; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:20:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A15E2063A for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0AC12062E for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j44EItnf011031; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:18:55 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j44EIuB7000464; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:18:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id ZAA00463 ; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:18:56 +0900 Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j44EIt8a005305; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:18:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j44EItGB017492; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:18:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j44EIt4a006546; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:18:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead ([172.30.24.114]) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IFY006EXYFBB7@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:18:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DTBy1-0003uL-00; Tue, 03 May 2005 21:58:37 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba To: eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050504045837.GV1876@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] [eap-keying] Port Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 00:58:37 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) In draft-ietf-eap-keying-06.txt, the definition of "port" is not clear. In fact, the draft talks about peer ports and authenticator ports. On the other hand, there is a definition of "network access port" in IEEE 802.1X specification, but I'm not sure the port in the eap-keying draft is exactly the same as defined in 802.1X. Also, can an "authenticator port" be physically separated from the authenticator? I think they can be separated. Yoshihiro Ohba _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 4 10:34:13 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15201 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:34:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FFB82062E; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2CA020654; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:34:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51CD92063A for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A37A2062E for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 10:33:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j44EWwnf014033 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:32:58 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j44EWxqg007643 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:32:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id ZAA07637 ; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:32:59 +0900 Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j44EWwJB010470 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:32:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j44EWwlp022200; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:32:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j44EWv4a012265 for ; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:32:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead ([172.30.24.114]) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IFY006OVZ2QB7@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp> for eap@frascone.com; Wed, 4 May 2005 23:32:51 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DTC6U-0003vC-00 for ; Tue, 03 May 2005 22:07:22 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba To: eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050504050722.GW1876@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] [eap-keying] TSK Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 01:07:22 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) In section 2.1: " Transient Session Keys (TSKs) Session keys used to protect data exchanged between the peer and the authenticator after the EAP authentication has successfully completed. TSKs are appropriate for the lower layer ciphersuite negotiated between the EAP peer and authenticator. Examples of TSK derivation are provided in Appendix D. " I think that ports should be the consumers of the TSKs. The text may be revised something like: " Transient Session Keys (TSKs) Session keys used to protect data exchanged between a port of the peer and a port of the authenticator after the EAP authentication has successfully completed. TSKs are appropriate for the lower layer ciphersuite negotiated between the ports of the EAP peer and authenticator. Examples of TSK derivation are provided in Appendix D. 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From eap-admin@frascone.com Thu May 5 09:17:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24082 for ; Thu, 5 May 2005 09:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9FF206DF; Thu, 5 May 2005 09:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD480206DB; Thu, 5 May 2005 09:17:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC93206DB for ; Thu, 5 May 2005 09:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C74720234 for ; Thu, 5 May 2005 09:16:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DTgD5-000B7s-Fj for eap@frascone.com; Thu, 05 May 2005 09:16:11 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j45DGAu05560 for ; Thu, 5 May 2005 06:16:10 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: eap@frascone.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] Strawman Review Criteria Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 06:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) The IETF has recently been asked to review a lower layer (802.16e) for compatibility with RFC 3748 and the Key Management Framework. There may be other such review requests. As a result, we need to develop review criteria. Here is a strawman. Lower Layer Review Criteria RFC 3748 Compatibility Section 2.4: Does the lower layer enable peer to peer operation? a. Support for bi-directional session key derivation? b. Support for tie breaking? c. Support for peer and authenticator roles? Section 3.1: Lower Layer Requirements a. Does the lower layer support error detection? b. Does the lower layer provide an EAP MTU of 1020 octets or greater? c. Does the lower layer support fragmentation and reassembly? d. Does the lower layer provide ordering guarantees? e. Does the lower layer provide non-duplication? Does the specification include requirements for the security properties of EAP methods (e.g. list of requirements comparable to RFC 4017)? EAP Key Management Framework Algorithm independence Requirement: "Wherever cryptographic algorithms are chosen, the algorithms must be negotiable, in order to provide resilience against compromise of a particular cryptographic algorithm." Does the lower layer negotiate cryptographic algorithms? Does the specification suggest use of a AAA protocol that negotiates cryptographic algorithms? (e.g. Diameter or RADIUS/IPsec?) Does the specification require use of EAP methods that support the "Protected Ciphersuite" claim in RFC 3748, Section 7.2.1? Strong, fresh session keys Requirement: "Session keys must be demonstrated to be strong and fresh in all circumstances, while at the same time retaining algorithm independence." Does the specification suggest use of a AAA protocol that generates strong, fresh session keys to protect messages? (Diameter or RADIUS/IPsec)? Does the lower layer define the mechanisms by which session keys are derived? Do the mechanisms guarantee the freshness of transient session keys in all circumstances? 1. Does the lower layer determine the key lifetimes of the exported EAP keys and transient session keys so as to ensure they do not become stale? 2. If the EAP exported keys are reused, does the lower layer guarantee freshness of transient session keys? 3. Is freshness guaranteed even where one of the peer or authenticator cannot generate high entropy random numbers? Does the specification require use of EAP methods that support the "Key Derivation", "Key Strength", "Dictionary Attack Resistance" and "Session Independence" security claims defined in RFC 3748, Section 7.2.1? Does the specification require a minimum required key strength for EAP methods? Replay protection Requirement: "All protocol exchanges must be replay protected." Does the lower layer support integrity and replay protection? Does the specification require use of EAP methods that support the "Replay protection" and "Integrity protection" claims of RFC 3748, Section 7.2.1? Authentication Requirements: "All parties need to be authenticated. The confidentiality of the authenticator must be maintained. No plaintext passwords are allowed." Does the specification suggest use of a AAA protocol that enables mutual authentication between the authenticator and AAA server even where a proxy is present? (Diameter EAP w/redirect) Does the lower layer provide for mutual authentication between the EAP peer and authenticator? Does the lower layer provide for the confidentiality of the authenticator? Does the specification require EAP key management extensions? If so, are they specified? Does the lower layer utilize cleartext passwords? Does the specification require use of EAP methods that support the "Mutual Authentication" security claim of RFC 3748, Section 7.2.1. Authorization Requirement: "EAP peer and authenticator authorization must be performed." Does the specification enable the EAP peer and authenticator to identify each other? Does the specification address the authorization and correctness issues detailed in the EAP Key Framework Section 5? Does the specification synchronize authorization state between the peer and authenticator? For example, are key usage restrictions communicated? Does the lower layer refer to or require AAA extensions? If so, are they specified? Session keys Requirement: "Confidentiality of session keys must be maintained." Does the specification suggest use of a AAA protocol that maintains confidentiality of the AAA-Key even where a proxy is present? (e.g. Diameter EAP w/redirect) Does the lower layer maintain confidentiality of session keys? 1. Does the lower layer disclose keying material used in the derivation of session keys to parties other than the EAP peer, authenticator and server? 2. Does the lower layer disclose session keys to parties other than the EAP peer and authenticator? Ciphersuite negotiation Requirement: "The selection of the "best" ciphersuite must be securely confirmed." Does the lower layer securely confirm the selection of the "best" ciphersuite? Does the lower layer require use of an EAP method that supports the "Protected ciphersuite negotiation" security claim of RFC 3748, Section 7.2.1? Unique naming Requirement: "Session keys must be uniquely named." Does the lower layer support key caching? If so, does the lower layer enable determination of which of multiple keys to use for a given session? Does the specification provide for unique naming of keys? Does the key naming mechanism depend on the key itself? If so, has the specification taken into account recent work on hash collisions? Domino effect Requirement: "Compromise of a single authenticator cannot compromise any other part of the system, including session keys and long-term secrets." Does the lower layer enable the peer to securely determine the identity of the authenticator? Can compromise of a single authenticator result in compromise of other authenticators? Are the session keys used by different authenticators required to be cryptographically independent? Does the lower layer require use of EAP methods that support the "Session independence" claim of RFC 3748, Section 7.2.1? Key binding Requirement: "The key must be bound to the appropriate context." Does the specification enable the peer and authenticator to securely confirm EAP and session key context, including: a. Key lifetimes b. Authenticator and peer identities c. 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From kahawai@didamail.com Fri May 6 14:22:32 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17736; Fri, 6 May 2005 14:22:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 112.197.99-84.rev.gaoland.net ([84.99.197.112]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DU7hf-0007Xo-Ev; Fri, 06 May 2005 14:37:36 -0400 Received: from constipate.downplay-blenheim.com (HELO agamemnon.com 66.4.122.83) by parlance.com with EMQP; Fri, 06 May 2005 21:12:44 +0200 Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 13:18:44 -0600 From: "Evan Rice" Message-Id: To: e3@ietf.org Cc: eamoby@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org, ediint-archive@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org, edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org, edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org, edu-team@ietf.org, edu-team-admin@ietf.org, edu-team-bounces@ietf.org, edu-team-web-archive@ietf.org, efkhoipoverib@ietf.org Subject: Instant low rates X-Mailer: CompuServe 7.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. 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From cartland@emailaccount.com Fri May 6 15:37:09 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28250; Fri, 6 May 2005 15:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DU8rt-00040u-0o; Fri, 06 May 2005 15:52:14 -0400 Received: from [67.163.255.63] (helo=c-67-163-255-63.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DU8dH-0004ds-9M; Fri, 06 May 2005 15:37:08 -0400 Received: from abduct.ix-appanage.com (HELO famous.com 66.2.116.20) by william.com with EMQP; Sat, 07 May 2005 00:35:26 +0400 Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 18:40:26 -0200 From: "Rose Collier" Message-Id: To: doyle.crouch@ietf.org Cc: dp@ietf.org, drafts@ietf.org, drums-archive@ietf.org, dvsqhmanet@ietf.org, dxnvmrouting-discussion-admin@ietf.org, e@ietf.org, e3@ietf.org, eamoby@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org, ediint-archive@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Super low mortage rate X-Mailer: CompuServe 7.0 X-Spam-Score: 16.4 (++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. 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From VCFUWOIEVN@onelegacy.org Sat May 7 10:57:47 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA18673; Sat, 7 May 2005 10:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DUQzC-0002Cm-Cz; Sat, 07 May 2005 11:13:02 -0400 Received: from [211.253.127.81] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DUQkL-00017v-7i; Sat, 07 May 2005 10:57:38 -0400 Received: from ZQKKJ-TQ80 (0.90.253.56) by 211.253.127.81; Sat, 07 May 2005 08:00:48 -0800 From: "Jeffery Trujillo" To: mailserv@ietf.org Subject: Payment confirmation P3996659 Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 08:00:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00LA_02P1644DG_02V.417Q53A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-message-flag: Authentic Sender, Hash: NhCjWnOe Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 35.7 (+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 325b777e1a3a618c889460b612a65510 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00LA_02P1644DG_02V.417Q53A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00VD_04I9932LW_05P.703L67F0" ------=_NextPart_000_00VD_04I9932LW_05P.703L67F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Get a capable html e-mailer ------=_NextPart_000_00VD_04I9932LW_05P.703L67F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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L7oRjcTLoh7tl0RCRlKFZgzb886oyDFG8oZhNOEI7HjA9jEwk6LMYxklWcA1osCDzMveJz25vwru cXWuhF8oI+jHPE5Sk4jcpQj3GD5ekjKVvbQeLDt5yjMcToa1rCPpIGi59T0TlK/8pSp1+MxmQhAv tKQl9lK5TGJesnW6FOcaaVnLJ94SiNi8JADVxz3nnVOFHJRmIN/5uhZWQZbBK+E7V2jJT3aqdr87 ZjkZ00WB4u57/6hs5j7VaM8bmm+bDPWl/hxqUOuZT6J81F/ynNjE/cWTou0MaEGtaTxr2lB6lHTi /lC3v36685M2hGg+HfBQJmJSlQ00H03d6FOLEnJyF7VmICt5SwEUUqfkhKNQz/lBnkayiz4dZCAt OEhvGpKkqKTq+o6KUv15DnCT42rgjEjEsVaQd40j4Cu92FY09NOHVZih5+B6Qxr+UIQyJCtZL4i8 x9U1mgp95xSPWNgfDI+f5Lwp4AZIObs6FrFnPWtdA4jBnxpWgyi8a+gEO72+wYSgoSWtG0a7E2mm VrWrZW1rXfta2MZWtrOlbW1te1vc5la3ry1tb337W+AGV7jDJQhucY173I1EAAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_00LA_02P1644DG_02V.417Q53A0-- From Collins6Maddox@masscom.mak.ac.ug Sun May 8 06:13:11 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA01100; Sun, 8 May 2005 06:13:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 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It's hoping I am ye're in a fit state to meet your Maker, said That is the purpose for which I sit here. depredations of the buccaneers, and the constant straining of followers naturally preferred Cartagena, because offering the proposal of association, offering him not only his sword, but his which should have been the real attack shall be no more than a fe city by surprise, not only before it can put itself into a state apprehensively. saker shot, and they could make out the figures stirring on her Guns off Port Royal... that should argue Colonel Bishop at work. Captain Wolverstone of the Lachesis, whom you have placed under out of this new slave by leaving him to pursue his profession tha that remained to be seen of them. The absconding M. de Rivarol Oh, impossible! Have a nice day. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5527C.427E84EC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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campaign should
proceed. = It's hoping I am ye're in a fit state to meet your Maker, said
= That is the purpose for which I sit
here. = depredations of the buccaneers, and the constant straining
of = followers naturally preferred Cartagena, because offering
the = proposal of association, offering him not only his sword, but
his = which should have been the real attack shall be no more than a
fe = city by surprise, not only before it can put itself into a state
= apprehensively
. = saker shot, and they could make out the figures stirring on
her = Guns off Port Royal... that should argue Colonel Bishop at
work. = Captain Wolverstone of the Lachesis, whom you have placed
under = out of this new slave by leaving him to pursue his profession
tha = that remained to be seen of them. The absconding M. de
Rivarol = Oh,
impossible! =
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From a security point of view cryptographic operations are based on an 'Inner Secret', whose value is inner_secret = PRF(inner_secret, "inner secret permutation", SecurityParameters.server_random + SecurityParameters.client_random + session_key_material) [0..48]; This value could be computed by an EAP-TLS smartcard and then given back to the host via a new specific command like GET_INNER_SECRET The resulting advantage will be, to authenticate the user, and then to produce the Inner Secret, in order, for example, to perform the TNC protocol presented by John Vollbrecht during the last IETF meeting Any comment on that proposal ? Pascal www.infres.enst.fr/~urien/openeapsmartcard _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 9 14:48:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18085 for ; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81F220634; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE0D2062E; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:48:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC092062E for ; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:47:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A39E2062C for ; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C1889863; Mon, 9 May 2005 21:47:42 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <427FB051.1090302@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eap@frascone.com Cc: Bernard Aboba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] reviewers for new methods Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 21:47:45 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello folks, We have received expert review requests for EAP PSK, EAP IKEv2, and EAP Smartcard Type. We are looking for volunteers to work on these reviews. Let me or Bernard know if you are interested. The purpose of the reviews is to ensure that the said methods do not "break EAP", i.e., they conform to RFC 3748 requirements for methods. Naturally other reviews are also solicited, e.g., do the methods make sense for a particular purpose. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon May 9 14:54:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA18681 for ; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E912063A; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF48B20634; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:54:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5665920634 for ; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:53:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.enst.fr (revol2.enst.fr [137.194.2.14]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8975E20632 for ; Mon, 9 May 2005 14:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.enst.fr [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C8D482 for ; Mon, 9 May 2005 20:53:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2.enst.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (revol2.enst.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15726-05 for ; Mon, 9 May 2005 20:53:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from infres.enst.fr (infres.enst.fr [137.194.192.1]) by smtp2.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176651EBF for ; Mon, 9 May 2005 19:59:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from DELL.enst.fr (dhcp164-232.enst.fr [137.194.164.232]) by infres.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A622F54 for ; Mon, 9 May 2005 19:59:54 +0200 (MEST) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20050509195031.03a23e58@infres.enst.fr> X-Sender: urien@infres.enst.fr X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 To: eap@frascone.com From: Pascal Urien Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at enst.fr X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] EAP-AKA and EAP- Smartcards Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:59:56 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Hi Everybody A first implementation of EAP-AKA, for smartcards, according to http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-urien-eap-smartcard-07.txt is available at www.infres.enst.fr/~urien/openeapsmartcard, with some test vectors Comments welcomed Pascal _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From 4kaylen@abqshopperswindow.com Mon May 9 22:13:10 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA08876 for ; Mon, 9 May 2005 22:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from e0gez60q.erin.utoronto.ca ([142.151.144.93]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DVKUQ-0007MQ-Pw for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 09 May 2005 22:28:56 -0400 Message-ID: <04e801c554aa$a99d59bf$7217d07e@abqshopperswindow.com> From: "Kendra L. 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Mai 2005 20:47 schrieb Jari Arkko: > Hello folks, > > We have received expert review requests for EAP PSK, > EAP IKEv2, and EAP Smartcard Type. We are looking > for volunteers to work on these reviews. I have a problem with the following. There are some mature EAP methods, which want to proof their abilities in real world deployments, but can not do this because no expert is found to review the protocol. Who is now an expert? I guess of course the authors of the respective EAP method, which leads to the question: May the authors volunteer self or must the reviewer be some unbiased person? Assume the authors should abstain from review, then *who* is an expert? Which skills, grades are needed? > Let me or Bernard know if you are interested. > The purpose of > the reviews is to ensure that the said methods do > not "break EAP", i.e., they conform to RFC 3748 > requirements for methods. This kind of review is what we are talking about. The Review Template is available here: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/template.txt That is, if the EAP method meet all criterias in the catalogue, then all obstacles are overcome and an IANA EAP Type Number can be assigned. (Right? Please correct me..) Then, the method can be used in real world deployments (because supplicant and AAA both recognize the method by this Type Number) and authors and users are perfectly happy. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 10 04:23:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA27367 for ; Tue, 10 May 2005 04:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8635A2056D; Tue, 10 May 2005 04:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC16120520; Tue, 10 May 2005 04:23:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9B920520 for ; Tue, 10 May 2005 04:22:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738322051B for ; Tue, 10 May 2005 04:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D207989863; Tue, 10 May 2005 11:22:43 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42806F5B.8080005@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Otto Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] reviewers for new methods References: <427FB051.1090302@piuha.net> <200505100957.24870.t.otto@sharevolution.de> In-Reply-To: <200505100957.24870.t.otto@sharevolution.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:22:51 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Otto wrote: >Who is now an expert? I guess of course the authors >of the respective EAP method, which leads to the question: >May the authors volunteer self or must the reviewer be some >unbiased person? > > I think the point of the review is that its done by some person other than the authors of the proposal! But if you have a proposal, here's how you can help: review some of the other proposals, then it is easier for us to find a reviewer for your proposal. We already have one volunteer reviewer from yesterday's call. But ideally I'd like to get one reviewer for each method. >Assume the authors should abstain from review, then >*who* is an expert? Which skills, grades are needed? > > The reviewer should thoroughly understand RFC 3748. There are no formal requirements. Most members of this WG should be able to do it. Of course, the rules of the IETF indicate that ADs have the final word in the appoitment of expert reviewers. >That is, if the EAP method meet all criterias in the >catalogue, then all obstacles are overcome and an >IANA EAP Type Number can be assigned. (Right? Please >correct me..) > > Yes. All obstacles from the point of view of EAP number assignment are then overcome. Note that there may also be general IETF requirements on actual Individual RFC submissions, as usual. >Then, the method can be used in real world deployments >(because supplicant and AAA both recognize the method by >this Type Number) and authors and users are perfectly >happy. > > The chairs of the EAP WG would be even happier if people brought their methods to RFC status, so that a permanent specification of methods would be available to all. Note that the RFC 3748 rules for EAP method type allocation actually call for this (or some other permanent reference) since Specification Required is indicated. From RFC 2434: Specification Required - Values and their meaning must be documented in an RFC or other permanent and readily available reference, in sufficient detail so that interoperability between independent implementations is possible. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From BSGQELU@lycos.co.uk Tue May 10 06:44:51 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA09496; Tue, 10 May 2005 06:44:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 53551346.cable.casema.nl ([83.85.19.70]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DVSTe-0004Rr-RS; Tue, 10 May 2005 07:00:40 -0400 X-Message-Info: 8zcljun61442rpFAD/nTzeLUroXLYrCJ7Zeq Received: from changeable (80.164.0.79) by rff287.verb.automate.taylor.verizon.net (InterMail vG.4.77.52.00 7-9-273-112-67-439361) with ESMTP id <407069583374193.NBSA7709.gemu54-mail.realm.chalk.net.cable.rogers.com@soot> for <2003-5-30152148.i-d@ietf.org>; Tue, 10 May 2005 05:34:39 -0600 Message-ID: <81410h11ngds$1913406gs099$667ori987wwk913@acoustic> Reply-To: "Jenny Pagan" From: "Jenny Pagan" To: <2003-5-30152148.i-d@ietf.org> Subject: Need soft's? newwest versions, best pr1ces! frilly Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 06:41:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--PSBOZJ419609917WWJWIS" X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f ----PSBOZJ419609917WWJWIS Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hi :) As one of our prefered custommers, we'd like to interest you: Are you looking for none-expensjve high-qualjty soft's for immediate down_load? 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ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DVceM-0001CS-5a for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 17:52:23 -0400 From: "Jeptha Dougherty" To: "Nakato Spivey" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?C1=E0L1S_VA1=ECUM_ViAGRR=C1?= Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:36:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C555F3.42812954" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 6.6 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C555F3.42812954 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I am quite certain that I will not. forth. He added that should they delay their departure, he would He was heard respectfully and approvingly by his officers, scornf Receiving no answer, he continued to observe her silently, his lo And remember that if you betray yourself, you ruin all, for you a on this occasion by the King of Spain. For on the following even Don Francisco shook his head. That must remain my affair, he He turned now upon the slave a countenance that was inflamed by h She wore a gown of shimmering grey silk, and a scarlet rose, So? The Spaniard's tone was easy; there was almost a suggestio and followed by the lady and the Governor. M. le Baron, the latter greeted him. I must speak frankly; an Have a nice day. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C555F3.42812954 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
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I am quite certain that I will
not. = forth. He added that should they delay their departure, he
would = He was heard respectfully and approvingly by his officers,
scornf = Receiving no answer, he continued to observe her silently, his
lo = And remember that if you betray yourself, you ruin all, for you
a = on this occasion by the King of Spain. For on the following
even = Don Francisco shook his head. That must remain my affair,
he = He turned now upon the slave a countenance that was inflamed by
h = She wore a gown of shimmering grey silk, and a scarlet
rose, = So? The Spaniard's tone was easy; there was almost a
suggestio = and followed by the lady and the
Governor. = M. le Baron, the latter greeted him. I must speak frankly;
an =
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C555F3.42812954-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 10 20:25:10 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA07055 for ; Tue, 10 May 2005 20:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437A0204E7; Tue, 10 May 2005 20:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70EC204CD; Tue, 10 May 2005 20:25:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B1A204C7 for ; Tue, 10 May 2005 20:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCAEB20319 for ; Tue, 10 May 2005 20:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 May 2005 17:24:40 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,94,1115017200"; d="scan'208"; a="263195381:sNHT1379416438" Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j4B0OZER013742; Tue, 10 May 2005 17:24:35 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B8D19@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Basic facts about EAP Thread-Index: AcVPo/wAUChKzvLgTem8sEMWIO3WPgGGzufA From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Bernard Aboba" , "Nicolas Williams" Cc: "Zorn, Glen" , , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:28:23 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com]=20 > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 10:46 PM > To: Nicolas Williams > Cc: Salowey, Joe; Zorn, Glen; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; eap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [eap] Basic facts about EAP >=20 > > these schemes expect the EAP-Peer to have knowledge of both the=20 > > EAP-Authenticator and EAP-Server. >=20 > I don't think this is necessarily true. For example, if the=20 > sever lower layer passes up opaque blobs to be transported=20 > via the method from the server to the peer, and then pushed=20 > back down to the peer lower layer for verification, then the=20 > method need have no knowledge of the media or of the authenticator. [Joe] True, my explanation was bad. I was trying to say the Peer needs to determine the identity it authenticated as the EAP-Server is associated with an entity that is trusted to provide or validate that opaque information, additional knowledge about the entity hosting the EAP authenticator is required in EAP. =20 >=20 > > Your description of EAP channel bindings, to me, goes hand in hand=20 > > with thinking of the EAP authenticator in passthrough=20 > methods as part=20 > > of the network infrastructure. >=20 > In "pass-through" the EAP authenticator is no more a part of=20 > the EAP conversation than a router is part of a TCP=20 > conversation between two endpoints. >=20 > > A variant which allowed for proxying of AS and TGS=20 > exchanges by a GSS=20 > > acceptor would be very similar to the world of EAP. >=20 > Such a method was specified, but never implemented (EAP-GSS). >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From htvtsaontgDarrell@mednet.com.br Tue May 10 20:57:36 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA09315 for ; Tue, 10 May 2005 20:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from user-0cetap3.cable.mindspring.com ([24.238.171.35]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DVfn3-0003Fp-Je for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 10 May 2005 21:13:34 -0400 Received: (from shiny@24.238.171.35) by jumpyA.208.116.16.160 (3.0B.8/D.DE.9) id mtCA9PrY9685; Wed, 11 May 2005 06:48:25 +0500 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Arnold K Brad" From: "Arnold K Brad" To: "Eap-archive" Subject: get more out of life Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:55:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--C45F79961255C209BF" X-Spam-Score: 18.8 (++++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 ----C45F79961255C209BF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your mother told you that if you don't stay in school and graduate then yo= u will never amount to anything. She was WRONG! http://hotrod.BBB999.biz cease further emails : http://BBB999.biz/re Our whole constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving governme= nt the power to control men's minds. ----C45F79961255C209BF-- From WDAGW@bw.fh-jena.de Wed May 11 01:13:36 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA24887; Wed, 11 May 2005 01:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [221.237.167.8] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DVjmn-0007Pe-CJ; Wed, 11 May 2005 01:29:35 -0400 X-Message-Info: 3RRC4SHaj51BABDaSaqQBEuwMA5hSGoBZF16FQRFC Received: (from @221.237.167.8) by 0.19.196.252.171 (9.63.9/A.A1.C) id c6FCIDYzM53010; Wed, 11 May 2005 11:04:27 +0500 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Hollis Conley" From: "Hollis Conley" To: "Eap-archive" Subject: new product, 2006 hospitals, market your services to key hospital directors. 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Name: Title: Organization: City/State: Zip: Tel: Fax: Email: ----B5FF3628EFE060220-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 11 01:40:09 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA26741 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 01:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D6D204EC; Wed, 11 May 2005 01:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45592204E9; Wed, 11 May 2005 01:40:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F19F204C7 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 01:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180B920455 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 01:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DVjw3-000D6g-83; Wed, 11 May 2005 01:39:07 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4B5d5427938; Tue, 10 May 2005 22:39:05 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: "Adrangi, Farid" Cc: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, Jari Arkko , eap@frascone.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] RE: [Issue 297] Review of Identity Selection -12 Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:39:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Tue, 10 May 2005, Adrangi, Farid wrote: > Bernrad, > Sorry for the delay. I think I understand what you are asking. So, how > about we add "Updates:RFC2607" in the header, and add the following > subsection (i.e., 1.1) in the introduction? > " > This document specifies the behavior of RADIUS proxies that handle EAP > messages. Moreover, this document describes an acceptable proxy > behavior in response to an unknown realm in an Access-Request containing > EAP-Message attributes. This affects the behavior of RADIUS proxies in > roaming situations. RFC2607 needs to be updated to clarify its usage > with EAP. > " > > Will this work for you? I hope this addition won't block or delay the > advancement of this draft!!! Please advise. How about the following: "This document specifies behavior of RADIUS proxies that handle EAP messages. This includes the specification of the behavior of proxies in response to an unknown realm within the User-Name attribute of an Access-Request containing one or EAP-Message attributes. This document, which depends on NAI "decoration" specified in [RFC2486bis], assumes a source routing model for determination of the roaming relationship path, and therefore affects the behavior of RADIUS proxies in roaming situations." > > BR, > Farid > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 7:42 AM > > To: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com > > Cc: Adrangi, Farid; radiusext@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Issue 297] Review of Identity Selection -12 > > > > > > > Since draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-12 does not even have > > > a reference to RFC 2607, I don't think any "Updates" header > > > is needed... > > > > RFC 2607 specifies RADIUS proxy behavior in roaming. This document > > specifies the behavior of RADIUS proxies that handle EAP messages. > > > > Moreoever, the document implicitly assumes a model by which requests > > are routed (source routing). > > > > These additions affect the behavior of RADIUS proxies. Between this > > document and RFC 2486bis, many proxies will need to be modified. > > > > I'm suggesting that we explicitly acknowledge the changes by > > including an > > Updates: header. > > > > Another alternative would be to remove the material relating to proxy > > behavior, and put it in a separate document within RADEXT WG. That > > document could expand on the required changes in more depth > > (such as the expected handling of source routed NAIs). _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 11 02:11:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA09769 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 02:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30248204EF; Wed, 11 May 2005 02:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A5E3204C7; Wed, 11 May 2005 02:11:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4C2204EF for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 02:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA4420455 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 02:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DVkQ0-000Lff-IW for eap@frascone.com; Wed, 11 May 2005 02:10:04 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4B6A3g29835 for ; Tue, 10 May 2005 23:10:03 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: eap@frascone.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] Review of draft-arkko-eap-service-identity-auth-02.txt Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 23:10:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Overall review This document represents the first practical attempt to make use of Channel Bindings. However in going over the document, it would appear that the assumptions made by the authors do not match the Channel Binding model in EAP methods such as PEAPv2. I think this implies that we may not have consensus on how Channel Bindings are supposed to work, or even that we may not really understand how they work or what the implications are. It therefore seems to me that the EAP WG needs to discuss Channel Bindings in more detail in order to figure out the correct model for implementing them. This seems like a topic that might be worth covering in the EAP Key management framework. Details RFC 3748 Section 7.15 describes the basic concept of Channel Bindings, but currently no published or approved EAP method uses this. Part of the reason for this is that there is some uncertainty about how to use Channel Bindings. This document is an important contribution to the discussion in that it attempts to make Channel Bindings implementable. As such, the document raises a number of fundamental issues about Channel Bindings. One of these is the direction of information flow. One of the issues that has been raised in EAP WG is whether Channel Bindings violates the principle of EAP Media Independence. In order to avoid having EAP methods depend on the underlying media, Channel Bindings need to be treated as opaque blobs. However, this is easier said than done. The basic idea of Channel Bindings it that the value of the Channel Bindings communicated by the NAS to the AAA server is compared to the value sent by the NAS to the EAP peer. One important question is what entity does the comparison. One perspective is that the AAA system verifies the Channel Binding attributes along the path, so that by the time the attributes get to the AAA server they can be considered definitive. As noted in the document, this does not happen by accident -- proxies have to be on guard against fraud, checking packets received from the NAS before forwarding them. However, assuming this is done, it would appear that the AAA server is in the best position to do the comparison. This present an argument for having the peer send the Channel Bindings to the server for the comparison. This is how PEAPv2 appears to work, for example. In this model, the server is able to verify the Channel Bindings and deny access to the peer if there is a mismatch, in adddition to logging discrepancies. Note that the document appears to assume that the channel bindings are exchanged from server to peer and checked on the peer. In this model, the peer has to protect itself, and the server cannot deny access because it doesn't have the information to do so. This has some security implications, because there may be incentives for the peer to falsify information. For example, in this approach, the peer can claim that the channel bindings sent by the server did not match those that it obtained from the lower layer, yet the server cannot verify this. This could allow a peer to obtain access to the network, yet refuse to pay for it. In the peer->server model of verification the peer has to submit its Channel Bindings to the server and if they don't match, the server not only has a record of the mismatch, but also can deny access, preventing the peer from committing fraud. Another fundamental issue about Channel Bindings is the format by which they are expressed. The document notes a number of relevant parameters, several of which (such as country code) are not currently expressed as AAA attributes. However, for Channel Bindings to be sent from the NAS to the AAA server, they need to be expressed as AAA AVPs or attributes. Therefore it would seem natural for the Channel Binding parameters to be expressed in the form of AAA attributes, rather than a new format. Also, there is the issue of the impact of adding new Channel Binding AVPs/attributes. In terms of maintenance, it seems important not to require EAP methods to change once new Channel Bindings are defined. This has a number of implications. One of these is that EAP methods probably should not define their own Channel Binding format, but rather should transmit Channel Bindings as opaque blobs containing AAA AVPs/attributes. This way, EAP methods do not actually parse the Channel Bindings, just transmit them from peer to server. If EAP methods transmit Channel Bindings as opaque bundles of AAA attributes, then the task of comparison on the AAA server becomes easier, since essentially this involves comparing the bundle of AAA attributes sent by the NAS to the bundle that are received from the EAP peer. This requires policy to be configured on the AAA server in order to decide whether the blobs match or not. But presumably this can be as simple as configuring whether a given attribute MUST be present in both the NAS and EAP attribute list and if so, whether these attributes MUST match. Another question is "how does the EAP peer obtain the blob to send to the EAP server?" In order to avoid having EAP methods handle the blobs, it would appear that the Channel Bindings need to be formatted and passed to the EAP method by the lower layer. For example, a lower layer would format parameters such as the SSID, STA and AP MAC addresses in AAA attribute format (Calling-Station-ID, Called-Station-Id), then passing this to the EAP peer in the format of a AAA attribute blob. Essentially then, the lower layer on the peer takes responsibility for generating the Channel Binding blob and the AAA server takes responsibility for verifying it; the EAP method does nothing except transporting the opaque blob from peer to server. Method Modifications In addition to discussing a potential operational model for Channel Bindings, the document also discusses potential modifications to existing EAP methods in order to support Channel Bindings. In looking through the proposal, I found some issues. As noted above, the PEAPv2 Channel Bindings model appears to assume peer->server informtion; the document suggests that the flow is bi-directional or perhaps server->peer. Due to the assumptions described above, it is not clear to me that PEAPv2 Channel Binding verification can actually work as described. In terms of the EAP-TLS modification, this requires a TLS Client extension. Here the Channel Binding information flow does appear to be peer -> server. However, a TLS extension is required, and so far the TLS WG appears to be reluctant to consider that kind of extension. So I'm not clear that the proposed approach can be approved. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 11 03:54:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA11054 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 03:54:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D222050C; Wed, 11 May 2005 03:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21256204FC; Wed, 11 May 2005 03:54:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD19204FC for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 03:53:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C892C204F1 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 03:53:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1411E89879; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:53:52 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4281BA18.1050604@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Review of draft-arkko-eap-service-identity-auth-02.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:54:00 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bernard, Thanks for your review! Some comments inline: >This document represents the first practical attempt to make use of >Channel Bindings. However in going over the document, it would appear >that the assumptions made by the authors do not match the Channel Binding >model in EAP methods such as PEAPv2. > >I think this implies that we may not have consensus on how Channel >Bindings are supposed to work, or even that we may not really understand >how they work or what the implications are. > > I would agree with at least the former part. I think this was also apparent in the discussion we had recently on thist list under the Basic Facts thread. >It therefore seems to me that the EAP WG needs to discuss Channel Bindings >in more detail in order to figure out the correct model for implementing >them. This seems like a topic that might be worth covering in the EAP Key >management framework. > > Yes. >Details > >RFC 3748 Section 7.15 describes the basic concept of Channel Bindings, but >currently no published or approved EAP method uses this. Part of the >reason for this is that there is some uncertainty about how to use Channel >Bindings. This document is an important contribution to the discussion in >that it attempts to make Channel Bindings implementable. > > Yes. There seems to be some support in various methods for it, but at least I have gotten the perception that such support was not fully baked and likely not implemented. I guess part of the reason for the draft was that, but the other part was that we wanted to avoid a situation where we start to lose the various independence properties of EAP, e.g., one method would only define the parameters for channel bindings in one L2 but not for others. >As such, the document raises a number of fundamental issues about Channel >Bindings. > >One of these is the direction of information flow. One of the issues that >has been raised in EAP WG is whether Channel Bindings violates the >principle of EAP Media Independence. > >In order to avoid having EAP methods depend on the underlying media, >Channel Bindings need to be treated as opaque blobs. However, this is >easier said than done. > >The basic idea of Channel Bindings it that the value of the Channel >Bindings communicated by the NAS to the AAA server is compared to the >value sent by the NAS to the EAP peer. > >One important question is what entity does the comparison. One >perspective is that the AAA system verifies the Channel Binding attributes >along the path, so that by the time the attributes get to the AAA server >they can be considered definitive. As noted in the document, this does >not happen by accident -- proxies have to be on guard against fraud, >checking packets received from the NAS before forwarding them. > >However, assuming this is done, it would appear that the AAA server is in >the best position to do the comparison. This present an argument for >having the peer send the Channel Bindings to the server for the >comparison. This is how PEAPv2 appears to work, for example. > > This is indeed possible, and I believe we the authors of this draft are willing to consider either direction. In fact, an earlier revision sent the information on both directions, allowing both parties to perform the check. But the arguments you give above do make sense to me. In the Basic Facts thread Yoshihiro and myself talked also about this issue. One of the questions that was posed was why some particular node is set in a special role in this verification, and I'm not sure I can answer that fully yet. >In this model, the server is able to verify the Channel Bindings and deny >access to the peer if there is a mismatch, in adddition to logging >discrepancies. > >Note that the document appears to assume that the channel bindings are >exchanged from server to peer and checked on the peer. In this model, the >peer has to protect itself, and the server cannot deny access because it >doesn't have the information to do so. This has some security >implications, because there may be incentives for the peer to falsify >information. > > Yes. I think we may need to understand the implications from the point of view of the different players. Many of the folks working on this technology look at things from the point of view of the providers; I at least confess I often focus too much on it. >For example, in this approach, the peer can claim that the channel >bindings sent by the server did not match those that it obtained from the >lower layer, yet the server cannot verify this. This could allow a peer >to obtain access to the network, yet refuse to pay for it. In the >peer->server model of verification the peer has to submit its Channel >Bindings to the server and if they don't match, the server not only has a >record of the mismatch, but also can deny access, preventing the peer from >committing fraud. > > Yes, this seems to be an issue. What I'd like to understand better is whether there's a similar issue the other way around. If the peer does not have the information, will there be some case where the server can claim something that the peer can't verify? For instance, could the server claim that there's a mismatch? >Another fundamental issue about Channel Bindings is the format by which >they are expressed. The document notes a number of relevant parameters, >several of which (such as country code) are not currently expressed as AAA >attributes. However, for Channel Bindings to be sent from the NAS to the >AAA server, they need to be expressed as AAA AVPs or attributes. >Therefore it would seem natural for the Channel Binding parameters to be >expressed in the form of AAA attributes, rather than a new format. > > This is a good idea. There seems to be two parts in this: the format and the availability of AAA attributes. We may also have a situation where there's a legitimate need for information that is presently not available as an AAA attribute. >Also, there is the issue of the impact of adding new Channel Binding >AVPs/attributes. In terms of maintenance, it seems important not to >require EAP methods to change once new Channel Bindings are defined. This > > This is very important, agreed. >has a number of implications. One of these is that EAP methods probably >should not define their own Channel Binding format, but rather should >transmit Channel Bindings as opaque blobs containing AAA AVPs/attributes. >This way, EAP methods do not actually parse the Channel Bindings, just >transmit them from peer to server. > > Right. We realized this in our recent list discussion. Our -02 is the first step into this direction, but probably not yet sufficient. >If EAP methods transmit Channel Bindings as opaque bundles of AAA >attributes, then the task of comparison on the AAA server becomes easier, >since essentially this involves comparing the bundle of AAA attributes >sent by the NAS to the bundle that are received from the EAP peer. This >requires policy to be configured on the AAA server in order to decide >whether the blobs match or not. But presumably this can be as simple as >configuring whether a given attribute MUST be present in both the NAS and >EAP attribute list and if so, whether these attributes MUST match. > > Yes, it does sound good. Need to think about this for a while though. >Another question is "how does the EAP peer obtain the blob to send to the >EAP server?" In order to avoid having EAP methods handle the blobs, it >would appear that the Channel Bindings need to be formatted and passed to >the EAP method by the lower layer. For example, a lower layer would >format parameters such as the SSID, STA and AP MAC addresses in AAA >attribute format (Calling-Station-ID, Called-Station-Id), then passing >this to the EAP peer in the format of a AAA attribute blob. Essentially >then, the lower layer on the peer takes responsibility for generating the >Channel Binding blob and the AAA server takes responsibility for verifying >it; the EAP method does nothing except transporting the opaque blob from >peer to server > > Right. >Method Modifications > >In addition to discussing a potential operational model for Channel >Bindings, the document also discusses potential modifications to existing >EAP methods in order to support Channel Bindings. > >In looking through the proposal, I found some issues. As noted above, the >PEAPv2 Channel Bindings model appears to assume peer->server informtion; >the document suggests that the flow is bi-directional or perhaps >server->peer. Due to the assumptions described above, it is not clear to >me that PEAPv2 Channel Binding verification can actually work as >described. > > Another issue with PEAPv2 is that if we ever get to an RFC about channel bindings, I would at least not like that RFC to contain modifications to protocols that are not available as RFCs. This would probably imply cutting the PEAPv2 part out of the draft and doing it separately. But lets first agree on what the right direction of information is. >In terms of the EAP-TLS modification, this requires a TLS Client >extension. Here the Channel Binding information flow does appear to be >peer -> server. However, a TLS extension is required, and so far the TLS >WG appears to be reluctant to consider that kind of extension. So I'm not >clear that the proposed approach can be approved. > This is an issue. Any thoughts on how it could be solved? --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 11 09:40:11 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA03955 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC6C20364; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC1B20355; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:40:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60832034B for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0005A202DB for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20EA89863; Wed, 11 May 2005 16:39:18 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42820B0F.6020007@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: "Adrangi, Farid" , Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, eap@frascone.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] Re: [Issue 297] Review of Identity Selection -12 Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:39:27 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Works for me. --Jari >How about the following: > >"This document specifies behavior of RADIUS proxies that handle >EAP messages. This includes the specification of the behavior of >proxies in response to an unknown realm within the User-Name attribute >of an Access-Request containing one or EAP-Message attributes. This >document, which depends on NAI "decoration" specified in >[RFC2486bis], assumes a source routing model for determination of >the roaming relationship path, and therefore affects the behavior of >RADIUS proxies in roaming situations." > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From manurer@doramail.com Wed May 11 11:47:33 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA15674; Wed, 11 May 2005 11:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DVtgM-00060b-QM; Wed, 11 May 2005 12:03:38 -0400 Received: from [222.119.244.113] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DVsUZ-0000xB-CE; Wed, 11 May 2005 10:47:20 -0400 X-Apparently-To: eap-archive@ietf.org X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from indigenous.dissertation.pochta.ru ([unix socket]) by dayton.lim.pochta.ru (Cyrus v2.2.7) with LMTPA; Wed, 11 May 2005 19:42:17 +0300 Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:34:17 -0700 From: "Teddy Ouellette" Message-Id: X-Accept-Language: en,zh-TW,zh-CN,zh,ja,ko,tr,ru To: eap-archive@ietf.org Cc: eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org, ediint-archive@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org, edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org, edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org, edu-team@ietf.org, edu-team-admin@ietf.org, edu-team-bounces@ietf.org, edu-team-web-archive@ietf.org Subject: You've been selected for a low rate X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. 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From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 11 13:00:09 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23964 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 13:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9873720382; Wed, 11 May 2005 13:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E772038A; Wed, 11 May 2005 13:00:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491A620384 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 12:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C81520382 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 12:59:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DVuYr-000JpJ-30; Wed, 11 May 2005 12:59:53 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4BGxpP07273; Wed, 11 May 2005 09:59:52 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: Jari Arkko Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Review of draft-arkko-eap-service-identity-auth-02.txt In-Reply-To: <4281BA18.1050604@piuha.net> Message-ID: References: <4281BA18.1050604@piuha.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:59:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > Yes. There seems to be some support in various methods for > it, but at least I have gotten the perception that such support > was not fully baked and likely not implemented. I think that's fair. Part of the problem is figuring out how to implement Channel Bindings without having to constantly update the method specification for new parameters. For example, suppose a new lower layer supports a NAS-Identifier attribute; you'd want the EAP method to automatically support that attribute and for the AAA server to be able to verify it, all without a code update. > I guess part > of the reason for the draft was that, but the other part was that > we wanted to avoid a situation where we start to lose the various > independence properties of EAP, e.g., one method would only > define the parameters for channel bindings in one L2 but not > for others. Right. I think this is part of the update problem. > In the Basic Facts thread Yoshihiro and myself talked also about > this issue. One of the questions that was posed was why some > particular node is set in a special role in this verification, and I'm > not sure I can answer that fully yet. I think that security may be part of the answer. The AAA server obtains its Channel Binding parameters within the AAA protocol, and therefore they are integrity protected. Also, if proxies are doing the recommended checks along the path the parameters have been sanity checked. On the other hand, the peer may have obtained parameters from the lower layer with no security, so they could have been forged. For example, parameters obtained in an 802.11 Beacon or Probe Response can have been sent by an attacker. So I think that the peer and server are in different positions with respect to confidence in the information they receive. > I think we may need to understand the implications from > the point of view of the different players. Many of the > folks working on this technology look at things from the > point of view of the providers; I at least confess I often > focus too much on it. One of the reasons for the interest in Channel Bindings is the potential for fraud. For example, a point of attachment can attract peers via advertisement of misleading Channel Bindings, then provide different information to the AAA server. One attack that has gotten some publicity is the "Evil Twin" attack where a rogue AP impersonates a popular SSID and attracts peers to attach to it. It then spoofs popular web sites, potentially obtaining personal financial information. In a roaming environment, such an attack can succeed, even where EAP methods supporting mutual authentication and strong encryption are used, as long as the rogue AP can reach the home AAA server via some roaming path. For example, one operator can masquerade as another operator to the user, convincing them to attach and then charge the user for roaming to another network. In this scenario, the interest of the user and home server are probably aligned: they want to prevent fraud. The interest of the local operator or downstream proxy may not be aligned with the peer and server depending on whether they are in cahoots with the attacker. > What I'd like to understand better is whether there's a similar > issue the other way around. If the peer does not have the > information, will there be some case where the server can > claim something that the peer can't verify? For instance, could > the server claim that there's a mismatch? Yes, the server can claim there is a mismatch. If the peer doesn't obtain the server parameters, it can't verify if this is true or not. This seems like it could be an issue if only for debugging purposes: the AAA server could be set up incorrectly, requiring an attribute that the peer doesn't send. > This is a good idea. There seems to be two parts in this: the > format and the availability of AAA attributes. We may also > have a situation where there's a legitimate need for information > that is presently not available as an AAA attribute. Since the AAA server can only verify the information sent by the EAP peer against that it receives from the NAS, it would appear that this would reuqire creating a new AAA attribute. Something like a country code appears to be a reasonable for that, IMHO. > Right. We realized this in our recent list discussion. Our -02 > is the first step into this direction, but probably not yet > sufficient. One question is where the verification policy resides. If it is on the server, then the server can decide what attributes are required to be present and which ones must match, without additional information from the peer. However, if the peer gets a say in this then maybe its opinions need to be expressed. > This is an issue. Any thoughts on how it could be solved? I have only bad ideas, unfortunately. EAP-TLS doesn't open a data channel after TLS authentication completes. This has been a source of frustration when trying to extend it. The only (bad) idea I have is potentially to use attribute certificates, and send the blobs that way. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From mondloch@emailaccount.com Wed May 11 14:28:09 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00969; Wed, 11 May 2005 14:28:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-161-118-210.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.161.118.210]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DVwBq-0006Y3-Fs; Wed, 11 May 2005 14:44:16 -0400 X-Apparently-To: eamoby@ietf.org X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from designate.attune.pochta.ru ([unix socket]) by bewhisker.afferent.pochta.ru (Cyrus v2.2.4) with LMTPA; Wed, 11 May 2005 12:16:21 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:17:21 +0200 From: "Brenda Daly" Message-Id: X-Accept-Language: en,zh-TW,zh-CN,zh,ja,ko,tr,ru To: eamoby@ietf.org Cc: eap-archive@ietf.org, eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org, ediint-archive@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org, edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org, edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org, edu-team@ietf.org, edu-team-admin@ietf.org, edu-team-bounces@ietf.org, edu-team-web-archive@ietf.org, efkhoipoverib@ietf.org Subject: Need a low mortage rate? 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From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 11 22:55:10 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA23110 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 22:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B9A20377; Wed, 11 May 2005 22:55:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C261FE0B; Wed, 11 May 2005 22:55:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8635F1FFF2 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 22:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEF51FE0B for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 22:54:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DW3qU-000BAw-2h for eap@frascone.com; Wed, 11 May 2005 22:54:42 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4C2sfK11879 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 19:54:41 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: eap@frascone.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:54:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) At various points during the development of RFC 3748, we talked about the "Principle of Equivalence" - that EAP methods operate the same way, regardless of whether the authenticator is in "pass-through" mode or not. One of the consequences of the Principle of Equivalence is that EAP key management should be explainable without using terms that suggest that the AAA server is required. Terms such as "AAA-Key" are somewhat confusing because they suggest that EAP requires a AAA server in order to do key derivation. So as an experiment, I have collected the material in the Key Management framework document that relates directly to EAP (not lower layers) and rewritten it without introducing AAA. The text follows. If this explanation seems more clear, this approach can be incorporated into the Key Management framework. Comments welcome. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- EAP Key Hierarchy EAP, defined in [RFC3748] is a two-party protocol spoken between the EAP peer and server. Within EAP, keying material is generated by EAP methods. Part of this keying material may be used by EAP methods themselves and part of this material may be exported. The EAP Key Hierarchy, illustrated in Figure 1, has at the root the long term credential utilized by the selected EAP method. If authentication is based on a pre-shared key, the parties store the EAP method to be used and the pre-shared key. The EAP server also stores the peer's identity and/or other information necessary to decide whether access to some service should be granted. The peer stores information necessary to choose which secret to use for which service. If authentication is based on proof of possession of the private key corresponding to the public key contained within a certificate, the parties store the EAP method to be used and the trust anchors used to validate the certificates. The EAP server also stores the peer's identity and/or other information necessary to decide whether access to some service should be granted. The peer stores information necessary to choose which certificate to use for which service. Based on the long term credential established between the peer and the server, EAP derives two types of keys: [1] Keys calculated locally by the EAP method but not exported by the EAP method, such as the TEKs. [2] Keys exported by the EAP method: MSK, EMSK, IV. As noted in [RFC3748] Section 7.10, EAP methods generating keys are required to calculate and export the MSK and EMSK, which must be at least 64 octets in length. EAP methods also may export the IV; however, the use of the IV is deprecated. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ---+ | | ^ | EAP Method | | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | | | | | | | | | | EAP Method Key |<->| Long-Term | | | | | Derivation | | Credential | | | | | | | | | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local to | | | | | EAP | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Method | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | | | | TEK | |MSK, EMSK | |IV | | | | | |Derivation | |Derivation | |Derivation | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | | | | | | | | | | | | V +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ---+ | | | ^ | Peer-ID, | | Exported| | Server-ID, | MSK (64+B) | IV (64B) by | | Method-ID, | EMSK (64+B) | EAP | | Key-Lifetime | | Method | V V V V Figure 1: EAP Key Hierarchy EAP methods also MAY export method-specific peer and server identifiers (peer-ID and server-ID), a method-specific EAP conversation identifier known as the Method-ID, and the lifetime of the exported keys, known the Key-Lifetime. New EAP method specifications MUST define the Peer-ID, Server-ID and Method-ID. The combination of the Peer-ID and Server-ID uniquely specifies the endpoints of the EAP method exchange. Peer-ID As described in [RFC3748] Section 7.3, the identity provided in the EAP-Response/Identity, may be different from the peer identity authenticated by the EAP method. Where the EAP method authenticates the peer identity, that identity is exported by the method as the Peer-ID. A suitable EAP peer name may not always be available. Where an EAP method does not define a method-specific peer identity, the Peer-ID is the null string. The Peer-ID for existing EAP methods is defined in Appendix E. Server-ID Where the EAP method authenticates the server identity, that identity is exported by the method as the Server-ID. A suitable EAP server name may not always be available. Where an EAP method does not define a method-specific peer identity, the Server-ID is the null string. The Server-ID for existing EAP methods is defined in Appendix E. Method-ID EAP method specifications deriving keys MUST specify a temporally unique method identifier known as the Method-ID. The EAP Method- ID uniquely identifies an EAP session of a given Type between an EAP peer and server. The Method-ID is typically constructed from nonces or counters used within the EAP method exchange. The Method-ID for existing EAP methods is defined in Appendix E. Session-ID The Session-ID uniquely identifies an EAP session between an EAP peer (as identified by the Peer-ID) and server (as identified by the Server-ID). The EAP Session-ID consists of the concatenation of the Expanded EAP Type Code (including the Type, Vendor-ID and Vendor-Type fields defined in [RFC3748] Section 5.7) and the Method-ID. Key-Lifetime While EAP itself does not support key lifetime negotiation, it is possible to specify methods that do. However, systems that rely on such negotiation for exported keys would only function with these methods. As a result, it is NOT RECOMMENDED to use this approach as the sole way to determine key lifetimes. As illustrated in Figure 2, keying material and parameters exported by EAP methods are passed down to the EAP peer or authenticator layers, which passes them to the EAP layer. Keying material and related parameters MUST NOT be cached by the EAP peer or authenticator layers, or the EAP layer. Based on the Method-ID exported by the EAP method, the EAP layer forms the EAP Session-ID by concatenating the EAP Expanded Type with the Method-ID. Together with the MSK, EMSK, IV, Peer-ID, Server-ID, and Key-Lifetime, the EAP layer passes the Session-ID down to the lower layer. The Method-ID is exported by EAP methods rather than the Session-ID so as to prevent EAP methods from writing into each other's Session- ID space. Lower layers MAY cache keying material and related parameters. Lower Layer behavior is discussed in more detail in Section TBD. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | | | | EAP method | | | | MSK, EMSK, IV, Peer-ID, | | Server-ID, Method-ID, | | Key-Lifetime | | | | V | +-+-+-+-!-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | ! | | EAP ! Peer or Authenticator | | ! layer | | ! | +-+-+-+-!-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | ! | | EAP ! layer | | ! | | ! Session-ID = | | ! Expanded-Type || | | ! Method-ID | | ! | +-+-+-+-!-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | ! | | Lower ! layer | | ! | | V | | MSK, EMSK, IV, Peer-ID, | | Server-ID, Session-ID, | | Key-Lifetime | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Figure 2: Flow of EAP keying material Key Naming The naming of keys within the EAP key hierarchy is based on the EAP Session-ID. MSK Name This key is created between the EAP peer and EAP server, and can be referred to using the string "MSK:", concatenated with the EAP Session-ID. EMSK Name The EMSK can be referred to using the string "EMSK:", concatenated with the EAP Session-ID. IV Name Use of the IV is deprecated. However, if necessary the IV can be referred to using the string "IV:" concatenated with the EAP Session-ID. PMK Name This document does not specify a naming scheme for the PMK. The PMK is only identified by the key from which it is derived. Note: IEEE 802.11i names the PMKID for the purposes of being able to refer to it in the Secure Association protocol; this naming is based on a hash of the PMK itself as well as some other parameters (see Section 8.5.1.2 [IEEE-802.11i]). TEKs The TEKs may or may not be named. Their naming is specified in the EAP method. EAP Invariants Certain basic characteristics, known as the "EAP Invariants" hold true for EAP implementations on all media: Mode independence Media independence Method independence Ciphersuite independence Mode Independence EAP as defined in [RFC3748] is a two party protocol spoken between the EAP peer and server. A fundamental property of EAP is that the conversation between the EAP peer and server is unaffected by whether the EAP authenticator is operating in "pass-through" mode. The principle of Mode Independence extends to the operation of EAP methods, including key derivation. EAP methods operate identically regardless of whether the authenticator is operating as a pass- through or not; this also applies to the derivation of keying material. Since EAP is a protocol spoken between two parties, the completion of an EAP method results in the derivation of keying material on the EAP peer and server. Since the EAP peer is unaware of whether the EAP authenticator is operating in "pass-through" mode or not, key derivation is unaffected by this, and the parameters exported by EAP methods (MSK, EMSK, IV, Method-ID, Peer-ID, Server-ID, Key-Lifetime) are similarly unaffected. Within EAP, the primary function of the AAA protocol is to maintain the principle of Mode Independence, so that as far as the EAP peer is concerned, its conversation with the EAP authenticator, and all consequences of that conversation, are identical, regardless of the authenticator mode of operation. Media Independence One of the goals of EAP is to allow EAP methods to function on any lower layer meeting the criteria outlined in [RFC3748], Section 3.1. For example, as described in [RFC3748], EAP authentication can be run over PPP [RFC1661], IEEE 802 wired networks [IEEE-802.1X], and IEEE 802.11 wireless LANs [IEEE-802.11i]. In order to maintain media independence, it is necessary for EAP to avoid inclusion of media-specific elements. For example, EAP methods cannot be assumed to have knowledge of the lower layer over which they are transported, and cannot utilize identifiers associated with a particular usage environment (e.g. MAC addresses). The need for media independence has also motivated the development of the three phase exchange. Since discovery is typically media- specific, this function is handled outside of EAP, rather than being incorporated within it. Similarly, the Secure Association Protocol often contains media dependencies such as negotiation of media- specific ciphersuites or session parameters, and as a result this functionality also cannot be incorporated within EAP. Note that media independence may be retained within EAP methods that support channel binding or method-specific identification. An EAP method need not be aware of the content of an identifier in order to use it. This enables an EAP method to use media-specific identifiers such as MAC addresses without compromising media independence. To support channel binding, an EAP method can pass binding parameters to the AAA server in the form of an opaque blob, and receive confirmation of whether the parameters match, without requiring media-specific knowledge. Method Independence By enabling pass-through, authenticators can support any method implemented on the peer and server, not just locally implemented methods. This allows the authenticator to avoid implementing code for each EAP method required by peers. In fact, since a pass-through authenticator is not required to implement any EAP methods at all, it cannot be assumed to support any EAP method-specific code. As a result, as noted in [RFC3748], authenticators must by default be capable of supporting any EAP method. Since the Discovery and Secure Association exchanges are also method independent, an authenticator can carry out the three phase exchange without having an EAP method in common with the peer. This is useful where there is no single EAP method that is both mandatory-to-implement and offers acceptable security for the media in use. For example, the [RFC3748] mandatory-to-implement EAP method (MD5-Challenge) does not provide dictionary attack resistance, mutual authentication or key derivation, and as a result is not appropriate for use in wireless LAN authentication [RFC4017]. However, despite this it is possible for the peer and authenticator to interoperate as long as a suitable EAP method is supported on the EAP server. Ciphersuite Independence While EAP methods may negotiate the ciphersuite used in protection of the EAP conversation, the ciphersuite used for the protection of the data exchanged after EAP authentication has completed is negotiated between the peer and authenticator out-of-band of EAP. Since ciphersuite negotiation is assumed to occur out-of-band, there is no need for ciphersuite negotiation within EAP. Since ciphersuite negotiation occurs outside of EAP, EAP methods generate keying material that is ciphersuite-independent. For example, within PPP, the ciphersuite is negotiated within the Encryption Control Protocol (ECP) defined in [RFC1968], after EAP authentication is completed. Within [IEEE-802.11i], the AP ciphersuites are advertised in the Beacon and Probe Responses prior to EAP authentication, and are securely verified during a 4-way handshake exchange after EAP authentication has completed. Advantages of ciphersuite-independence include: Reduced update requirements If EAP methods were to specify how to derive transient session keys for each ciphersuite, they would need to be updated each time a new ciphersuite is developed. In addition, backend authentication servers might not be usable with all EAP-capable authenticators, since the backend authentication server would also need to be updated each time support for a new ciphersuite is added to the authenticator. Reduced EAP method complexity Requiring each EAP method to include ciphersuite-specific code for transient session key derivation would increase method complexity and result in duplicated effort. Simplified configuration The ciphersuite is negotiated between the peer and authenticator out-of-band of EAP. The backend authentication server is neither a party to this negotiation, nor is it an intermediary in the data flow between the EAP peer and authenticator. The backend authentication server may not have knowledge of the ciphersuites and negotiation policies implemented by the peer and authenticator, or be aware of the ciphersuite negotiated between them. This simplifies the configuration of the backend authentication server. For example, since ECP negotiation occurs after authentication, when run over PPP, the EAP peer, authenticator and backend authentication server may not anticipate the negotiated ciphersuite and therefore this information cannot be provided to the EAP method. Appendix E - Key Names and Scope in Existing Methods This appendix specifies Method-ID, Peer-ID, Server-ID and Key- Lifetime for EAP methods that have been published prior to this specification. Future EAP method specifications MUST include a definition of the Method-ID Peer-ID, and Server-ID (could be the empty string) and MAY also define Key-Lifetime (assumed to not be exported if not described). EAP-Identity The EAP-Identity method does not derive keys, and therefore does not define the Key-Lifetime or Method-ID. The Peer-ID exported by the Identity method is determined by the octets included within the EAP- Response/Identity. The Server-ID is the empty string (zero length). EAP-Notification The EAP-Notification method does not derive keys and therefore does not define the Key-Lifetime and Method-ID. The Peer-ID and Server-ID are the empty string (zero length). EAP-GTC The EAP-GTC method does not derive keys and therefore does not define the Key-Lifetime and Method-ID. The Peer-ID and Server-ID are the empty string. EAP-OTP The EAP-OTP method does not derive keys and therefore does not define the Key-Lifetime and Method-ID. The Peer-ID and Server-ID are the empty string. EAP-TLS The EAP-TLS Method-Id is the concatenation of the peer and server nonces. The Peer-ID and Server-ID are the contents of the altSubjectName in the peer and server certificates. EAP-TLS does not negotiate a Key-Lifetime. EAP-AKA The EAP-AKA Method-Id is the contents of the RAND field from the AT_RAND attribute, followed by the contents of the AUTN field in the AT_AUTN attribute. The Peer-ID is the contents of the Identity field from the AT_IDENTITY attribute, using only the Actual Identity Length octets from the beginning, however. Note that the contents are used as they are transmitted, regardless of whether the transmitted identity was a permanent, pseudonym, or fast reauthentication identity. The Server- ID is an empty string. EAP-AKA does not negotiate a key lifetime. EAP-SIM The Method-Id is the contents of the RAND field from the AT_RAND attribute, followed by the contents of the NONCE_MT field in the AT_NONCE_MT attribute. The Peer-ID is the contents of the Identity field from the AT_IDENTITY attribute, using only the Actual Identity Length octets from the beginning, however. Note that the contents are used as they are transmitted, regardless of whether the transmitted identity was a permanent, pseudonym, or fast reauthentication identity. The Server- ID is an empty string. EAP-SIM does not negotiate a key lifetime. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From Maegh@fullpower.com Wed May 11 23:30:34 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA25483 for ; Wed, 11 May 2005 23:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200505120330.XAA25483@ietf.org> Received: from bsn-95-220-84.dsl.siol.net ([193.95.220.84] helo=fullpower.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DW4eq-00057o-Tg for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 May 2005 23:46:46 -0400 From: "Maeghan Lord" To: "Shanice Woodard" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Cl=C0LLlS_V=E0LL1UM_VlAGGR=C1?= Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:30:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C56DA2.4282CDD1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.0 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C56DA2.4282CDD1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, them, and from her poop a gun fired a salute. 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prof = Quo, quo, scelesti,
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------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C56DA2.4282CDD1-- From qfkyjmwlcy@hotmail.com Thu May 12 01:14:35 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA02271; Thu, 12 May 2005 01:14:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cm61-10-133-82.hkcable.com.hk ([61.10.133.82]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DW6HT-00025L-F6; Thu, 12 May 2005 01:30:47 -0400 Received: from [177.32.185.120] (helo=..dearriba.com) by smtp2.cistron.nl with esmtp ( 3.35 #1 ()) id 365LFL-0076PT-34 Message-ID: <35087593144732.R37451@.noc..gr> Sender: freeradius-devel-qfkyjmwlcy@hotmail.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.1 Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 00:10:41 +0200 From: "Richard Russo" To: eap-archive@ietf.org, edu-team@ietf.org, edu-team-web-archive@ietf.org, entmib@ietf.org, entmib-admin@ietf.org, entmib-request@ietf.org, enum@ietf.org Subject: You Name It, We Got It lgj3Nz X-Spam-Score: 6.8 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 All for only $200! Windows XP Pro MS Office 2003 Adobe Acrobat 6.0 Pro Adobe Photoshop CS/8.0 Adobe Pagemaker 7.0 Adobe Illustrator 10 Norton Systemworks Pro 2003 and lots more.... http://bubxyx.info/?d25c0bT42109523d3585563e079afYa2 9MLE7m From eap-admin@frascone.com Thu May 12 03:09:10 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA29776 for ; Thu, 12 May 2005 03:09:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBAD2203E1; Thu, 12 May 2005 03:09:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2810A203A5; Thu, 12 May 2005 03:09:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06EDC203A5 for ; Thu, 12 May 2005 03:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD79C20390 for ; Thu, 12 May 2005 03:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F211F89879; Thu, 12 May 2005 10:08:37 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:08:46 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this looks like a useful simplification of the document. There may be some smaller things to think about, however. For instance, > Within EAP, the primary function of the AAA protocol is to maintain > the principle of Mode Independence, so that as far as the EAP peer is > concerned, its conversation with the EAP authenticator, and all > consequences of that conversation, are identical, regardless of the > authenticator mode of operation. > This seems true. Interestingly, it even seems true if one imagines a fast handoff scenario where you start off from a combined NAS-AAA device and handoff to another NAS. But its also interesting to note what the text above does not say. I believe peers already can learn the identities of both the authenticator and the server, separately, and if channel bindings are provided peers can also learn of potential discrepancies among the properties claimed by the different parties. Of course, such discrepancies can be learned even if all of this is in the same box. Secondly, the text does not say anything about fast handoffs (and this may well be right). But in fast handoffs peer would again be aware of changing identities of the authenticator (even though in this case you'd not really be running EAP again). And keys for this would be created slightly differently. But again, the peer has no real knowledge of whether he handed off to a new box or just a different part of the same box. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Thu May 12 08:25:11 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA19531 for ; Thu, 12 May 2005 08:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B25C20426; Thu, 12 May 2005 08:25:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8150920420; Thu, 12 May 2005 08:25:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A0A82041E for ; Thu, 12 May 2005 08:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D528203E9 for ; Thu, 12 May 2005 08:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DWCjR-000Hes-Kh; Thu, 12 May 2005 08:24:01 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4CCNtW14723; Thu, 12 May 2005 05:24:00 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: Jari Arkko Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-Reply-To: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> Message-ID: References: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 05:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > This seems true. Interestingly, it even seems true if > one imagines a fast handoff scenario where you start > off from a combined NAS-AAA device and handoff to > another NAS. Yes. > But its also interesting to note what the text above > does not say. I believe peers already can learn the > identities of both the authenticator and the server, > separately, and if channel bindings are provided peers > can also learn of potential discrepancies among the > properties claimed by the different parties. Of course, > such discrepancies can be learned even if all of this > is in the same box. Yes. The Server-ID is exported by the EAP method, while the lower layer may expose the NAS-Identifier. These two identifiers may not be the same, even where the authenticator and server are on the same box. For example, the Server-ID exported by the EAP method may refer to the name of the EAP server, while the NAS-Identifier might refer to the MAC address of the box. Since the exported keying material and parameters are pushed down to the lower layer, it is really the lower layer that defines how the key cache operates, if one exists at all. For that purpose, it is typically the authenticator identity exposed by the lower layer that matters. For example, as the result of an EAP conversation the peer can know that it has derived keying material with the EAP server identified by the Server-ID. That could be a AAA server handling hundreds of NASes. However, once the lower layer receives the keying material, it needs to organize its key cache. Typically they do this by associating the keying material passed down to them with an Authenticator Identity as defined by the lower layer. But in principle I think that the lower layer could also advertise the Server-ID. > Secondly, the text does not say anything about > fast handoffs (and this may well be right). But in > fast handoffs peer would again be aware of changing > identities of the authenticator (even though in this > case you'd not really be running EAP again). And > keys for this would be created slightly differently. But > again, the peer has no real knowledge of whether > he handed off to a new box or just a different part of > the same box. Right. The lower layer is passed the keying material and parameters (peer-ID, server-ID, method-ID, key-lifetime). The lower layer can use this information to organize its key cache in addition to any lower layer information it might gather. If there is no AAA server, fast handoff (e.g. authentication without EAP) is still possible. If the lower lower can identify a point of attachment as being possessing keying material, then it can use the keying material in the key cache to authenticate with it. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From bo@calmra.com Thu May 12 12:53:49 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA10941; Thu, 12 May 2005 12:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DWHCF-0006kH-Uq; Thu, 12 May 2005 13:10:09 -0400 Received: from [219.130.45.254] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DWG0N-0002eY-14; Thu, 12 May 2005 11:53:44 -0400 Received: from 4708948803.calmra.com (fkedrtkahf.calmra.com [152.198.220.49]) by 219.130.45.254 Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Thu, 12 May 2005 09:55:21 -0800 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:55:21 -0800 From: Adolph.Ali Reply-To: "bo@calmra.com" To: mailman@ietf.org Subject: Congratulations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="3856962059645" X-Spam-Score: 7.1 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 --3856962059645 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hello mailman@ietf.org, We tried to contact you earlier about flnanclng your home at a lower rate. 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Comments inline approach=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 7:55 PM > To: eap@frascone.com > Subject: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence ------------- > EAP Key Hierarchy >=20 > EAP, defined in [RFC3748] is a two-party protocol spoken=20 > between the > EAP peer and server. Within EAP, keying material is=20 [Joe] I need some help with terminology here. Isn't it that EAP is spoken between the EAP peer and authenticator unless the authenticator is running in pass-through mode in which case it is spoken between the EAP peer and an EAP server? If this is the case then we probably have to adjust some of the terminology used below. =20 > generated by EAP > methods. Part of this keying material may be used by EAP methods > themselves and part of this material may be exported. >=20 > The EAP Key Hierarchy, illustrated in Figure 1, has at the root the > long term credential utilized by the selected EAP method. If > authentication is based on a pre-shared key, the parties store the > EAP method to be used and the pre-shared key. The EAP server also > stores the peer's identity and/or other information necessary to > decide whether access to some service should be granted. The peer > stores information necessary to choose which secret to use=20 > for which > service. >=20 [Joe] I have been thinking that the EAP-Server itself just contains enough information to get the authentication done. I don't think of the EAP Server knowing about authorization to services for specific identities, I thought this would be handled by the entity hosting an EAP-Server which understood services. I would expect the same for a peer. =20 > If authentication is based on proof of possession of the=20 > private key > corresponding to the public key contained within a certificate, the > parties store the EAP method to be used and the trust=20 > anchors used to > validate the certificates. The EAP server also stores the peer's > identity and/or other information necessary to decide=20 > whether access > to some service should be granted. The peer stores information > necessary to choose which certificate to use for which service. >=20 > Based on the long term credential established between the peer and > the server, EAP derives two types of keys: >=20 > [1] Keys calculated locally by the EAP method but not exported > by the EAP method, such as the TEKs. > [2] Keys exported by the EAP method: MSK, EMSK, IV. >=20 > As noted in [RFC3748] Section 7.10, EAP methods generating keys are > required to calculate and export the MSK and EMSK, which must be at > least 64 octets in length. EAP methods also may export the IV; > however, the use of the IV is deprecated. >=20 [Joe] I think we want to limit the discussion of the EMSK to the extensions document. Currently in this document the EMSK serves no purpose. =20 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =20 > ---+ > | | =20 > ^ > | EAP Method | =20 > | > | | =20 > | > | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | =20 > | > | | | | | | =20 > | > | | EAP Method Key |<->| Long-Term | | =20 > | > | | Derivation | | Credential | | =20 > | > | | | | | | =20 > | > | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | =20 > Local to | > | | | | =20 > EAP | > | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | =20 > Method | > | | | | | =20 > | > | | | | | =20 > | > | | | | | =20 > | > | | | | | =20 > | > | | | | | =20 > | > | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | =20 > | > | | | TEK | |MSK, EMSK | |IV | | =20 > | > | | |Derivation | |Derivation | |Derivation | | =20 > | > | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | =20 > | > | | | | | =20 > | > | | | | | =20 > V > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =20 > ---+ > | | | =20 > ^ > | Peer-ID, | | =20 > Exported| > | Server-ID, | MSK (64+B) | IV=20 > (64B) by | > | Method-ID, | EMSK (64+B) | =20 > EAP | > | Key-Lifetime | | =20 > Method | > V V V =20 > V >=20 > Figure 1: EAP Key Hierarchy >=20 [Joe] Instead of key hierarchy I look at this as an exported context which contains keys as well as other info. The exported context would include MSK (leave EMSK exportation, if necessary, to extensions), Peer-ID, Server-ID, Method-ID, and Authenticated attributes. Authenticated attributes are data that is exchanged during the method such as EAP Channel-Bindings. They are not evaluated by the method, but are part of the context. Note that the means to export this context data is outside EAP. =20 > EAP methods also MAY export method-specific peer and server > identifiers (peer-ID and server-ID), a method-specific EAP > conversation identifier known as the Method-ID, and the lifetime of > the exported keys, known the Key-Lifetime. New EAP method > specifications MUST define the Peer-ID, Server-ID and=20 > Method-ID. The > combination of the Peer-ID and Server-ID uniquely specifies the > endpoints of the EAP method exchange. >=20 > Peer-ID >=20 > As described in [RFC3748] Section 7.3, the identity provided in > the EAP-Response/Identity, may be different from the=20 > peer identity > authenticated by the EAP method. Where the EAP method > authenticates the peer identity, that identity is=20 > exported by the > method as the Peer-ID. A suitable EAP peer name may=20 > not always be > available. Where an EAP method does not define a=20 > method-specific > peer identity, the Peer-ID is the null string. The Peer-ID for > existing EAP methods is defined in Appendix E. >=20 > Server-ID >=20 > Where the EAP method authenticates the server identity, that > identity is exported by the method as the Server-ID. A suitable > EAP server name may not always be available. Where an=20 > EAP method > does not define a method-specific peer identity, the=20 > Server-ID is > the null string. The Server-ID for existing EAP methods is > defined in Appendix E. >=20 > Method-ID >=20 > EAP method specifications deriving keys MUST specify a=20 > temporally > unique method identifier known as the Method-ID. The=20 > EAP Method- > ID uniquely identifies an EAP session of a given Type between an > EAP peer and server. The Method-ID is typically=20 > constructed from > nonces or counters used within the EAP method exchange. The > Method-ID for existing EAP methods is defined in Appendix E. >=20 > Session-ID >=20 > The Session-ID uniquely identifies an EAP session between an EAP > peer (as identified by the Peer-ID) and server (as identified by > the Server-ID). The EAP Session-ID consists of the=20 > concatenation > of the Expanded EAP Type Code (including the Type, Vendor-ID and > Vendor-Type fields defined in [RFC3748] Section 5.7) and the > Method-ID. >=20 > Media Independence >=20 > One of the goals of EAP is to allow EAP methods to function on any > lower layer meeting the criteria outlined in [RFC3748],=20 > Section 3.1. > For example, as described in [RFC3748], EAP authentication=20 > can be run > over PPP [RFC1661], IEEE 802 wired networks=20 > [IEEE-802.1X], and IEEE > 802.11 wireless LANs [IEEE-802.11i]. >=20 > In order to maintain media independence, it is necessary for EAP to > avoid inclusion of media-specific elements. For example,=20 > EAP methods > cannot be assumed to have knowledge of the lower layer over which > they are transported, and cannot utilize identifiers=20 > associated with > a particular usage environment (e.g. MAC addresses). >=20 > The need for media independence has also motivated the=20 > development of > the three phase exchange. Since discovery is typically media- > specific, this function is handled outside of EAP, rather=20 > than being > incorporated within it. Similarly, the Secure Association Protocol > often contains media dependencies such as negotiation of media- > specific ciphersuites or session parameters, and as a result this > functionality also cannot be incorporated within EAP. >=20 > Note that media independence may be retained within EAP=20 > methods that > support channel binding or method-specific identification. An EAP > method need not be aware of the content of an identifier=20 > in order to > use it. This enables an EAP method to use media-specific=20 > identifiers > such as MAC addresses without compromising media independence.=20 > To > support channel binding, an EAP method can pass binding=20 > parameters to > the AAA server in the form of an opaque blob, and receive > confirmation of whether the parameters match, without requiring > media-specific knowledge. >=20 [Joe] Remove the AAA server terminology and say the the EAP method may export authenticated attributes (or channel binding parameters) as an opaque blob which is part of the context. Also does the method actually receive confirmation of whther parameters match? =20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Thu May 12 23:25:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA09822 for ; Thu, 12 May 2005 23:25:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3AE22043E; Thu, 12 May 2005 23:25:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B62D20432; Thu, 12 May 2005 23:25:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6C220429 for ; Thu, 12 May 2005 23:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2287020420 for ; Thu, 12 May 2005 23:24:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3670189879; Fri, 13 May 2005 06:24:30 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42841DF7.5080305@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Salowey, Joe" Cc: Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B93B8@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B93B8@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:24:39 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Salowey, Joe wrote: >[Joe] Remove the AAA server terminology and say the the EAP method may >export authenticated attributes (or channel binding parameters) as an >opaque blob which is part of the context. Also does the method actually >receive confirmation of whther parameters match? > > Up to us to decide, I guess. 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Guarantee to work with all digital cable receivers.. or your moneeys back! - Enjoy free pay-per-view channels - Adult Channels - On Demand Channels and lots more! http://www.1clickgallery.info re movress below: http://www.1clickgallery.info/r ujklt From eap-admin@frascone.com Fri May 13 01:06:11 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA17286 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 01:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560A820457; Fri, 13 May 2005 01:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720FB2043E; Fri, 13 May 2005 01:06:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E78B2043E for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 01:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B15220432 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 01:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 May 2005 22:05:25 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,102,1115017200"; d="scan'208"; a="636051904:sNHT30111488" Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j4D55KPo004294; Thu, 12 May 2005 22:05:21 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B93E8@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence Thread-Index: AcVWwh0tGhxde/tkQ0yJrtwa5go9lAAtcNqQ From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Jari Arkko" , "Bernard Aboba" Cc: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:09:07 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net]=20 > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:09 AM > To: Bernard Aboba > Cc: eap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence >=20 > I think this looks like a useful simplification of the=20 > document. There may be some smaller things to think about,=20 > however. For instance, >=20 > > Within EAP, the primary function of the AAA protocol is=20 > to maintain > > the principle of Mode Independence, so that as far as the=20 > EAP peer is > > concerned, its conversation with the EAP authenticator, and all > > consequences of that conversation, are identical,=20 > regardless of the > > authenticator mode of operation. > > > This seems true. Interestingly, it even seems true if one=20 > imagines a fast handoff scenario where you start off from a=20 > combined NAS-AAA device and handoff to another NAS. >=20 > But its also interesting to note what the text above does not=20 > say. I believe peers already can learn the identities of both=20 > the authenticator and the server, separately, and if channel=20 > bindings are provided peers can also learn of potential=20 > discrepancies among the properties claimed by the different=20 > parties. Of course, such discrepancies can be learned even if=20 > all of this is in the same box. >=20 [Joe] Yes, It seems that the peer (or the entity hosting the peer) can know the identity of the of the party it is communicating with and possibly determine that it is an EAP-Server vs. an Authenticator. However the basic method operation and communication should be the same. It seems a method shouldn't change its behavior if it is running on a EAP server vs. an authenticator. I think it is possible that context data exported from the method may be interpreted differently by processes external to EAP. =20 > Secondly, the text does not say anything about fast handoffs=20 > (and this may well be right). But in fast handoffs peer would=20 > again be aware of changing identities of the authenticator=20 > (even though in this case you'd not really be running EAP=20 > again). And keys for this would be created slightly=20 > differently. But again, the peer has no real knowledge of=20 > whether he handed off to a new box or just a different part=20 > of the same box. >=20 [Joe] I think it would really be good to avoid fast handoff discussion in this part of the document.=20 > --Jari >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Fri May 13 02:07:10 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA27327 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9AA20463; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4882045B; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:07:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D892045B for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5834520456 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.51) id 1DWTJK-000LFP-Vp; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:06:11 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4D669u15160; Thu, 12 May 2005 23:06:09 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: "Salowey, Joe" Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-Reply-To: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B93B8@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B93B8@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:06:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > [Joe] I need some help with terminology here. Isn't it that EAP is > spoken between the EAP peer and authenticator unless the authenticator > is running in pass-through mode in which case it is spoken between the > EAP peer and an EAP server? If this is the case then we probably have > to adjust some of the terminology used below. As defined in RFC 3748, the term "EAP server" applies in both the pass-through and non-pass-through cases. Where there is no pass-through, the "EAP server" and "EAP authenticator" are the same entity. > [Joe] I have been thinking that the EAP-Server itself just contains > enough information to get the authentication done. I don't think of the > EAP Server knowing about authorization to services for specific > identities, I thought this would be handled by the entity hosting an > EAP-Server which understood services. I would expect the same for a > peer. While it is possible for an EAP method to support authorization exchanges, most methods don't do this. So typically this is a lower layer function (AAA can be considered a lower layer of EAP). Here I'm assuming that "authorizations" refers to something different from Channel Bindings or Key Context. > [Joe] I think we want to limit the discussion of the EMSK to the > extensions document. Currently in this document the EMSK serves no > purpose. I think the document says that the MSK, EMSK and (optionally) the IV are generated and passed down to the lower layer by the EAP peer and server. AMSKs are generated within the lower layer based on the exported keying material. From the perspective of the Principle of Equivalence, this creates an interesting issue. In the non-passthrough case, it can be assumed that both the EAP peer and authenticator lower layers obtain the MSK and EMSK. As a result, both lower layers can calculate AMSKs. In the pass-through case, AAA does not fulfill the "Principle of Equivalence" in that only a portion of the key hierarchy present on the EAP server is replicated to the authenticator. For example, in RADIUS/EAP and Diameter/EAP only the MSK is replicated. In EAP extensions, other portions of the key hierarchy may be replicated, such as the AMSK and possibly the MSK as well. So we have a situation where the key hierarchy may be partially replicated and the EAP peer needs to understand what has occurred so that it can know how to calculate the TSKs. This seems like information that needs to be securely synchronized between the EAP peer, authenticator and server, but this is not something that can be accomplished within EAP itself. It is therefore an obligation of the EAP lower layer - to make it clear to the authenticator and peer how the TSKs are to be calculated, and of AAA, to replicate the required portion of the key hierarchy between the EAP server and authenticator. > [Joe] Instead of key hierarchy I look at this as an exported context > which contains keys as well as other info. The exported context would > include MSK (leave EMSK exportation, if necessary, to extensions), > Peer-ID, Server-ID, Method-ID, and Authenticated attributes. > Authenticated attributes are data that is exchanged during the method > such as EAP Channel-Bindings. They are not evaluated by the method, but > are part of the context. Note that the means to export this context data > is outside EAP. Perhaps Key Hierarchy is not the right term here. The EMSK is mentioned as one of the exports because RFC 3748 says that it is generated (though it doesn't describe usage). I agree that Channel Bindings need to be added. > [Joe] Remove the AAA server terminology and say the the EAP method may > export authenticated attributes (or channel binding parameters) as an > opaque blob which is part of the context. Also does the method actually > receive confirmation of whether parameters match? Yes, removing the AAA server terminology will improve clarity. I think we need to say that the EAP method may export or import Channel Bindings as an opaque blob. For example, in some cases it appears that Channel Bindings are passed to the EAP method layer from the lower layer (e.g. on the EAP peer) and in some cases, they may be passed from the EAP method layer to the lower layer (e.g. on the EAP server). However, the discussion relating to the Service Authentication draft disclosed some uncertainty on exactly how this works. Perhaps we could fudge it for now by including a bi-directional arrow for Channel Bindings. As to confirmation, I think that on the side where the bindings are verified, the lower layer passes to the EAP method a confirmation on whether they were verified or not. Presumably the EAP method communicates this to the other side. So if the Channel Bindings are sent by the peer to the server for verification, then the server sends the peer an indication of whether they matched. I'll work on modifying the figures and text to describe this. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Fri May 13 02:13:09 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA03306 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF322046C; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7FD2045D; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:13:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B71042045D for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED86A20456 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.51) id 1DWTPs-000Lz2-UP; Fri, 13 May 2005 02:12:57 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4D6Ct415484; Thu, 12 May 2005 23:12:55 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: "Salowey, Joe" Cc: Jari Arkko , eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-Reply-To: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B93E8@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B93E8@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > [Joe] Yes, It seems that the peer (or the entity hosting the peer) can > know the identity of the of the party it is communicating with and > possibly determine that it is an EAP-Server vs. an Authenticator. > However the basic method operation and communication should be the same. > It seems a method shouldn't change its behavior if it is running on a > EAP server vs. an authenticator. I think it is possible that context > data exported from the method may be interpreted differently by > processes external to EAP. I think we need to be clear about which layer learns this information. The EAP method layer is aware of the identities provided in the EAP-Response/Identity but according to RFC 3748 should be using its own method-specific identities instead; these are exported as the Peer-ID and Server-ID. From the perspective of EAP, I think those are the only relevant identities. It is the EAP lower layer that is aware of the authenticator identity because this identity is only communicated at the lower layer. The diagram doesn't describe the Authenticator-Identity as being passed to the EAP method, and existing methods wouldn't make use of it, so I'm assuming that the EAP method doesn't obtain this or care about it. The authenticator identity is important to the lower layer because it uses that information to organize its key cache and figure out whether it already has keying material relating to a particular authenticator or not. > [Joe] I think it would really be good to avoid fast handoff discussion > in this part of the document. Right. I think the focus is to clearly articulate how things work and what the constraints are. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Fri May 13 03:31:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA17010 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37D920479; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81BE02046F; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:31:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11BBA2046F for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5332046C for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3CA889879; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:30:38 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <428457A8.9050409@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: "Salowey, Joe" , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B93B8@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:30:48 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba wrote: >>From the perspective of the Principle of Equivalence, this creates an >interesting issue. In the non-passthrough case, it can be assumed that >both the EAP peer and authenticator lower layers obtain the MSK and >EMSK. As a result, both lower layers can calculate AMSKs. > >In the pass-through case, AAA does not fulfill the "Principle of >Equivalence" in that only a portion of the key hierarchy present on the >EAP server is replicated to the authenticator. For example, in RADIUS/EAP >and Diameter/EAP only the MSK is replicated. In EAP extensions, other >portions of the key hierarchy may be replicated, such as the AMSK and >possibly the MSK as well. > > Perhaps this discrepancy can be explained by considering that we are talking of both physical objects (a box) and logical objects (a layer or a module). It isn't clear to me that in an integrated case the "NAS" module gets all the information that the "EAP method" module has... >>[Joe] Instead of key hierarchy I look at this as an exported context >>which contains keys as well as other info. The exported context would >>include MSK (leave EMSK exportation, if necessary, to extensions), >>Peer-ID, Server-ID, Method-ID, and Authenticated attributes. >>Authenticated attributes are data that is exchanged during the method >>such as EAP Channel-Bindings. They are not evaluated by the method, but >>are part of the context. Note that the means to export this context data >>is outside EAP. >> >> > >Perhaps Key Hierarchy is not the right term here. The EMSK is mentioned >as one of the exports because RFC 3748 says that it is generated (though >it doesn't describe usage). I agree that Channel Bindings need to be >added. > > I like Joe's "exported context" term. >For example, in some cases it appears that Channel Bindings are passed to >the EAP method layer from the lower layer (e.g. on the EAP peer) and in >some cases, they may be passed from the EAP method layer to the lower >layer (e.g. on the EAP server). However, the discussion relating to the >Service Authentication draft disclosed some uncertainty on exactly how >this works. Perhaps we could fudge it for now by including a >bi-directional arrow for Channel Bindings. > > Works for me. This is at least the most general approach, and the framework needs to support that, even if we decide to have just one direction in an actual method enhancement. >As to confirmation, I think that on the side where the bindings are >verified, the lower layer passes to the EAP method a confirmation >on whether they were verified or not. Presumably the EAP method >communicates this to the other side. So if the Channel Bindings >are sent by the peer to the server for verification, then the server >sends the peer an indication of whether they matched. > > Perhaps you can make this optional in the figure. I still haven't figured out whether you really need this or not in the actual methods. You could rely on access-reject if its the server that verifies (even if you get less info on why you didn't get in). >I'll work on modifying the figures and text to describe this. > > Thanks. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Fri May 13 03:33:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA17195 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB5620470; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A1B020477; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:33:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4B320477 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E056620470 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 03:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37AF289879; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:32:37 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4284581E.4080509@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: "Salowey, Joe" , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B93E8@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:32:46 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba wrote: >I think we need to be clear about which layer learns this information. >The EAP method layer is aware of the identities provided in the >EAP-Response/Identity but according to RFC 3748 should be using its own >method-specific identities instead; these are exported as the Peer-ID and >Server-ID. From the perspective of EAP, I think those are the only >relevant identities. > >It is the EAP lower layer that is aware of the authenticator identity >because this identity is only communicated at the lower layer. The >diagram doesn't describe the Authenticator-Identity as being passed to the >EAP method, and existing methods wouldn't make use of it, so I'm assuming >that the EAP method doesn't obtain this or care about it. > > > Yes, you are right. The EAP method may in some cases transport information about these, but if it does, it should do it so as opaque data. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From Jenny@joedyer.com Fri May 13 04:41:46 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA21196 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 04:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200505130841.EAA21196@ietf.org> Received: from aannecy-251-1-8-201.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr ([83.113.38.201] helo=joedyer.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DWVzo-0004n3-Rg for eap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 13 May 2005 04:58:14 -0400 From: "Jenny Bartholomew" To: "Jowan Harvey" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Cl=E0LlSS_V=E0LLlUM_ViAGRR=E0?= Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 04:41:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C56F20.42846845" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 5011df3e2a27abcc044eaa15befcaa87 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C56F20.42846845 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, treasure plundered from Cartagena, amounting to forty million counted to his age. army under Feversham that was now encamped on Sedgemoor. 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million = counted to his
age. = army under Feversham that was now encamped on Sedgemoor. Mr.
Blo = proceedings of that ghastly
day. = Deeming the impending action no affair of his, as indeed it was
n = Not until the runagate had vanished into the scrub did the
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th = I have to thank you for the
wreath. =
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C56F20.42846845-- From mlobbia@doramail.com Fri May 13 05:22:50 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23982; Fri, 13 May 2005 05:22:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [222.99.249.165] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DWWdY-0006El-7o; Fri, 13 May 2005 05:39:18 -0400 Received: from mcintosh.meantime-malaprop.com (HELO k.com 66.8.193.20) by melvin.com with EMQP; Fri, 13 May 2005 13:20:07 +0300 Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 07:24:07 -0300 From: "Angel Myrick" Message-Id: To: e@ietf.org Cc: e3@ietf.org, eamoby@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org, ediint-archive@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org, edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org, edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org, edu-team@ietf.org Subject: Pre-approved Application #ZRNQI982 X-Mailer: CompuServe 7.0 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate.= You have qualified for the lowest rate in years... You could get over $380,000 for as little as $500 a month! Ba(d credit? Doesn't matter, low rates are fixed no matter what! To get a free, no obli,gation consultation click below: http://www.ch00s3.com/sign.asp Best Regards, Jo Blevins to be remov(ed: http://www.ch00s3.com/gone.asp this process takes one week, so please be patient. we do our best to take your email/s off but you have to fill out a rem/ove or else you will continue to recieve email/s. From orcqmfjilgbVYpja@medicalpackaging.com Fri May 13 05:59:29 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA27951; Fri, 13 May 2005 05:59:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DWXD3-0007cO-KR; Fri, 13 May 2005 06:15:58 -0400 Received: from 1389438722.ip2long.net ([82.209.39.2]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DWW13-0006Mv-Ld; Fri, 13 May 2005 04:59:30 -0400 Received: from cubic.gnikretep.screaming.net (82.209.39.2) by 82.209.39.2 (gator 3.9 7.8) with SMTP id <6ZIVGC1P99>; Fri, 13 May 2005 07:00:19 -0400 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [82.209.39.2] Alternate-recipient: Allowed Reply-To: "cooperman orel" <%FR_EMAIL@gnikretep.screaming.net> From: "cooperman orel" <%FR_EMAIL@gnikretep.screaming.net> To: meeting-scheduling@ietf.org Cc: iptel-request@ietf.org, ran@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, maddogs@ietf.org, workshop@ietf.org, seamoby-admin@ietf.org, ipoverib-admin@ietf.org, dccp-request@ietf.org, manet@ietf.org, vrrp@ietf.org, subip-area@ietf.org, dinaras@ietf.org, urn-nid-admin@ietf.org, ieprep@ietf.org, gaco@ietf.org, magma-admin@ietf.org, p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org Subject: Congratulations, You've Been Approved Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:02:19 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--8415301_23240562.2G406" X-Spam-Score: 6.3 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a ----8415301_23240562.2G406 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit We tried to contact you earlier about flnancing your home at a lower rate.
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---------------------

No future contact:
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fleeingjesuitodonnel ----8415301_23240562.2G406-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Fri May 13 06:13:09 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA29879 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 06:13:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE3220483; Fri, 13 May 2005 06:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F5220477; Fri, 13 May 2005 06:13:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC0720477 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 06:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.int-evry.fr (smtp2.int-evry.fr [157.159.10.45]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D9420429 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 06:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ipv6-3.int-evry.fr (ipv6-3.int-evry.fr [157.159.100.76]) by smtp2.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2994486E3 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:12:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jb by ipv6-3.int-evry.fr with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DWX7I-00062d-TO for eap@frascone.com; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:10:00 +0200 From: Julien Bournelle To: eap@frascone.com Message-ID: <20050513101000.GG21479@ipv6-3.int-evry.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-INT-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-INT-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jb@int-evry.fr X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] EAP and roaming Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:10:00 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Hi all, In the roaming case, the EAP authenticator and EAP server do not belong to the same administrative entity. LEt's say that authenticator belong to company A and EAP server to company B. In draft-ietf-eap-keying-06.txt, it is assumed that the AAA-Key is provided in a AAA-Token. From security requirements in p. 51: "TO ensure against compromise, the AAA-Token MUST be integrity protected, authenticated, replay protected and encrypted in transit, using well-established cryptographic algorithms" TO follow this requirement, it implies that the A's EAP authenticator has a direct SA with B's EAP server. So if the company B does not allow SA establishment between its EAP server with EAP authenticator from other company, EAP shouldn't be used. Am I missing something ? -- julien.bournelle at int-evry.fr _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From tfmmmoi@dcemail.com Fri May 13 09:30:33 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA15264; Fri, 13 May 2005 09:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [220.88.192.235] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DWaVI-0007br-IH; Fri, 13 May 2005 09:47:03 -0400 Received: from appointee.wi1.bucksch.org (pD859D2D1.dip.t-dialin.net [114.189.244.40]) by parke.beonex.com with ESMTP id 288B9C0603B for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 09:31:39 -0500 Message-Id: <9341041508.5193687@diplomat.node.uri.edu> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:28:39 +0600 From: "Harley Sinclair" To: eap-archive@ietf.org, action@ietf.org, asrg-announce-admin@ietf.org Subject: Yes,Even you can afford a Cartie now km 6094 yi X-Spam-Score: 6.5 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Swiss Made Rolex and more in $99 ! http://elitereplica.com/index.php?ref=news ======================= no thanks- http://salvador.untowncjaad.com/bentham?AjCF6R45F8HtmA4alkaline From lqedipwscb@thuban.physics.carleton.edu Fri May 13 09:59:38 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA17534; Fri, 13 May 2005 09:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DWaxR-0000Ha-TY; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:16:09 -0400 Received: from 201009178127.user.veloxzone.com.br ([201.9.178.127]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DWahL-00016G-Pw; Fri, 13 May 2005 09:59:32 -0400 Received: from [164.188.200.116] (helo=alpinas) by squire.dattaweb.com with asmtp (Exim 4.77) id 1Cn4Tf-0636Vk-51 for lqedipwscb@thuban.physics.carleton.edu; Fri, 13 May 2005 18:55:24 +0400 Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 07:59:24 -0700 From: "Jorge" Message-ID: <101.07e558d5.2a9LWC44@sol.com> To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Vlagra (jokes) X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 New Canadian Drugs Store: http://www.l73.net/p/viks you perilla me albrecht me you fount me hungry me you carbonic me lubricious me you retch me z me you backorder me infinity me you caught me bronchial me you nelsen me cauldron me http://mq5.net/p.php From DDQPZEQSEXCBK@sct.samsung.ru Fri May 13 10:30:27 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20861; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200505131430.KAA20861@ietf.org> Received: from tamqfl1-ar6-4-42-089-236.tamqfl1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.42.89.236]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DWbRC-0001PN-Pp; Fri, 13 May 2005 10:46:58 -0400 Received: from JCGLX-FK62 (143.44.120.248) by 4.42.89.236; Fri, 13 May 2005 07:26:19 -0800 From: "Estella Castillo" To: mailserv@ietf.org Subject: Information about rejected payment: P7650693 Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 07:26:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00VR_05R7346EQ_01M.609K74F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-message-flag: Authentic Sender, Hash: HzYmJlTa X-Spam-Score: 6.1 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 325b777e1a3a618c889460b612a65510 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00VR_05R7346EQ_01M.609K74F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00EJ_05A2656CE_02K.489M37S0" ------=_NextPart_000_00EJ_05A2656CE_02K.489M37S0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Get a capable html e-mailer ------=_NextPart_000_00EJ_05A2656CE_02K.489M37S0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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11:49:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FAB2048E; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:49:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A7F2048E for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D622048B for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 May 2005 08:47:48 -0700 Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j4DFleO3019031; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:47:42 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B944C@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence Thread-Index: AcVXgnS+meMQHFrwSlqQy7CMbMrRYgATkGaw From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Bernard Aboba" Cc: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:51:30 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > As defined in RFC 3748, the term "EAP server" applies in both=20 > the pass-through and non-pass-through cases. Where there is=20 > no pass-through, the "EAP server" and "EAP authenticator" are=20 > the same entity. >=20 > > [Joe] I have been thinking that the EAP-Server itself just contains=20 > > enough information to get the authentication done. I don't=20 > think of=20 > > the EAP Server knowing about authorization to services for specific=20 > > identities, I thought this would be handled by the entity=20 > hosting an=20 > > EAP-Server which understood services. I would expect the=20 > same for a=20 > > peer. >=20 > While it is possible for an EAP method to support=20 > authorization exchanges, most methods don't do this. So=20 > typically this is a lower layer function (AAA can be=20 > considered a lower layer of EAP). >=20 > Here I'm assuming that "authorizations" refers to something=20 > different from Channel Bindings or Key Context. >=20 [Joe] This is a bit squishy interms of what a service is. It would seem that an EAP method would have to take "service" as an input. =20 > > [Joe] I think we want to limit the discussion of the EMSK to the=20 > > extensions document. Currently in this document the EMSK serves no=20 > > purpose. >=20 > I think the document says that the MSK, EMSK and (optionally)=20 > the IV are generated and passed down to the lower layer by=20 > the EAP peer and server. > AMSKs are generated within the lower layer based on the=20 > exported keying material. >=20 [Joe] I don't think it was the original intent for the EMSK to reach the lower layer. In this case the EMSK becomes roughly equivalent to the MSK, which is confusing at best. =20 > From the perspective of the Principle of Equivalence, this=20 > creates an interesting issue. In the non-passthrough case,=20 > it can be assumed that both the EAP peer and authenticator=20 > lower layers obtain the MSK and EMSK. As a result, both=20 > lower layers can calculate AMSKs. >=20 > In the pass-through case, AAA does not fulfill the "Principle=20 > of Equivalence" in that only a portion of the key hierarchy=20 > present on the EAP server is replicated to the authenticator.=20 > For example, in RADIUS/EAP and Diameter/EAP only the MSK is=20 > replicated. In EAP extensions, other portions of the key=20 > hierarchy may be replicated, such as the AMSK and possibly=20 > the MSK as well. >=20 > So we have a situation where the key hierarchy may be=20 > partially replicated and the EAP peer needs to understand=20 > what has occurred so that it can know how to calculate the=20 > TSKs. This seems like information that needs to be securely=20 > synchronized between the EAP peer, authenticator and server,=20 > but this is not something that can be accomplished within EAP=20 > itself. It is therefore an obligation of the EAP lower layer=20 > - to make it clear to the authenticator and peer how the TSKs=20 > are to be calculated, and of AAA, to replicate the required=20 > portion of the key hierarchy between the EAP server and authenticator. >=20 [Joe} I think this is correct, but I need to think about it more. =20 > > [Joe] Instead of key hierarchy I look at this as an=20 > exported context=20 > > which contains keys as well as other info. The exported=20 > context would=20 > > include MSK (leave EMSK exportation, if necessary, to extensions),=20 > > Peer-ID, Server-ID, Method-ID, and Authenticated attributes. > > Authenticated attributes are data that is exchanged during=20 > the method=20 > > such as EAP Channel-Bindings. They are not evaluated by=20 > the method,=20 > > but are part of the context. Note that the means to export this=20 > > context data is outside EAP. >=20 > Perhaps Key Hierarchy is not the right term here. The EMSK=20 > is mentioned as one of the exports because RFC 3748 says that=20 > it is generated (though it doesn't describe usage). I agree=20 > that Channel Bindings need to be added. >=20 [Joe] OK then I would say the EMSK is exported from the method, but it's use is undefined at this point so it stops there (doesn't propagate throught the rest of the layers).=20 > > [Joe] Remove the AAA server terminology and say the the EAP=20 > method may=20 > > export authenticated attributes (or channel binding=20 > parameters) as an=20 > > opaque blob which is part of the context. Also does the method=20 > > actually receive confirmation of whether parameters match? >=20 > Yes, removing the AAA server terminology will improve=20 > clarity. I think we need to say that the EAP method may=20 > export or import Channel Bindings as an opaque blob. >=20 > For example, in some cases it appears that Channel Bindings=20 > are passed to the EAP method layer from the lower layer (e.g.=20 > on the EAP peer) and in some cases, they may be passed from=20 > the EAP method layer to the lower layer (e.g. on the EAP=20 > server). However, the discussion relating to the Service=20 > Authentication draft disclosed some uncertainty on exactly=20 > how this works. Perhaps we could fudge it for now by=20 > including a bi-directional arrow for Channel Bindings. >=20 [Joe] Yes > As to confirmation, I think that on the side where the=20 > bindings are verified, the lower layer passes to the EAP=20 > method a confirmation on whether they were verified or not. =20 > Presumably the EAP method communicates this to the other=20 > side. So if the Channel Bindings are sent by the peer to the=20 > server for verification, then the server sends the peer an=20 > indication of whether they matched. >=20 [Joe] This seems to complicate things. I wonder if it is really necessary? This may add new requirements to EAP methods.=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Fri May 13 11:56:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26426 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 050EB2049A; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AAE41FE0C; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:56:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD6F1FE0C for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2261FD63 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 May 2005 08:55:27 -0700 Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j4DFtKO3025532; Fri, 13 May 2005 08:55:21 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B945E@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence Thread-Index: AcVXg2nEqNeibs/GTLm3YW+1gbeNJgAT8TqA From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Bernard Aboba" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:59:11 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 11:13 PM > To: Salowey, Joe > Cc: Jari Arkko; eap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence >=20 > > [Joe] Yes, It seems that the peer (or the entity hosting=20 > the peer) can=20 > > know the identity of the of the party it is communicating with and=20 > > possibly determine that it is an EAP-Server vs. an Authenticator. > > However the basic method operation and communication should=20 > be the same. > > It seems a method shouldn't change its behavior if it is=20 > running on a=20 > > EAP server vs. an authenticator. I think it is possible=20 > that context=20 > > data exported from the method may be interpreted differently by=20 > > processes external to EAP. >=20 > I think we need to be clear about which layer learns this information. > The EAP method layer is aware of the identities provided in=20 > the EAP-Response/Identity but according to RFC 3748 should be=20 > using its own method-specific identities instead; these are=20 > exported as the Peer-ID and Server-ID. From the perspective=20 > of EAP, I think those are the only relevant identities. >=20 [Joe] Agreed, these are the authenticated identities. > It is the EAP lower layer that is aware of the authenticator=20 > identity because this identity is only communicated at the=20 > lower layer. The diagram doesn't describe the=20 > Authenticator-Identity as being passed to the EAP method, and=20 > existing methods wouldn't make use of it, so I'm assuming=20 > that the EAP method doesn't obtain this or care about it. >=20 > The authenticator identity is important to the lower layer=20 > because it uses that information to organize its key cache=20 > and figure out whether it already has keying material=20 > relating to a particular authenticator or not. >=20 [Joe] So I don't know that the authenticator identity is ever dealt with by EAP at all. It seems to be the server that is authenticated within EAP. This should exported out of a method so a lower layer could use it for authorization. A lower layer could also associate capabilites with a server identity as well. =20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From jrzfenokkmcu@docum.org Fri May 13 12:24:51 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA28812; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [220.89.100.228] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DWdE1-0005zX-Ir; Fri, 13 May 2005 12:41:24 -0400 Delivered-To: jrzfenokkmcu@docum.org Received: by sagittarius (Wostfix) id B05C1148079; Fri, 13 May 2005 13:18:15 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:22:15 +0500 From: "Iva Diggs" Message-ID: <918z7fzlsc.fsf@calle26.net> To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: get bigger... 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forrestchampcallistohien ----64441_990806.e077-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Fri May 13 14:13:10 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11209 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:13:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E98C9204AA; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9860A204A3; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:13:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C166E204A3 for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:13:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914932048E for ; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.51) id 1DWeee-000OFF-7U; Fri, 13 May 2005 14:12:56 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4DICoI28075; Fri, 13 May 2005 11:12:50 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: "Salowey, Joe" Cc: Jari Arkko , eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-Reply-To: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B945E@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B945E@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:12:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > [Joe] So I don't know that the authenticator identity is ever dealt with > by EAP at all. I don't think it is, except perhaps as part of an opaque Channel Binding blob as Jari mentioned. > It seems to be the server that is authenticated within > EAP. This should exported out of a method so a lower layer could use it > for authorization. A lower layer could also associate capabilites with > a server identity as well. Yes, the diagram shows the Server-ID being exported (if available). _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From kazmer@didamail.com Fri May 13 15:11:18 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16879; Fri, 13 May 2005 15:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DWfp8-0004Ow-AF; Fri, 13 May 2005 15:27:51 -0400 Received: from 164-184-126-200.fibertel.com.ar ([200.126.184.164]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DWfZ6-0000Zs-6L; Fri, 13 May 2005 15:11:17 -0400 X-Apparently-To: dvsqhmanet@ietf.org X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from siam.crow.pochta.ru ([unix socket]) by chambermaid.argue.pochta.ru (Cyrus v2.2.5) with LMTPA; Fri, 13 May 2005 22:06:20 +0200 Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 19:00:20 -0100 From: "Trent Hudson" Message-Id: X-Accept-Language: en,zh-TW,zh-CN,zh,ja,ko,tr,ru To: dvsqhmanet@ietf.org Cc: dxnvmrouting-discussion-admin@ietf.org, e@ietf.org, e3@ietf.org, eamoby@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org, ediint-archive@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Your account #7M7947 X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 X-Spam-Score: 10.8 (++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. 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What do you mean, you rogue? I am a leader of armies, not
of = fleet, and several lesser vessels as auxiliaries. To Arabella
an = could now be shipped. Levasseur meanwhile would effect
certain = countryside, and they little cared how they procured them or
what = Captain Blood went off to give his surgeon's skill to the
wounded = by
overhaste. = Lord Julian stared at him, realizing exactly what he had
refused. = rival as that, a man of parts, moreover, as he was bound to
admit = - a thing of scorn, an outcast. And who made me that? Who
made = Brethren of the Coast? On my soul, Lord Julian, it is yourself
d = deliverance of Mary Traill. When a man so risks his life for
a = that heralded their approach disturbed him not at all. For
one = leading upwards to the house. Across this patch of light
flutter =
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20:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E3D204A9; Sun, 15 May 2005 20:58:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C8EC204A9 for ; Sun, 15 May 2005 20:57:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38774204A5 for ; Sun, 15 May 2005 20:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.51) id 1DXTut-00078U-Dn; Sun, 15 May 2005 20:57:07 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4G0v5w05819; Sun, 15 May 2005 17:57:06 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: Jari Arkko Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-Reply-To: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> Message-ID: References: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:57:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Here is some revised text which adds in support for Channel Bindings, removes the dangling AAA references, and cleans up other miscellaneous issues. Next, I'll work on cleaning up the text relating to the lower layer. EAP Method Operation EAP, defined in [RFC3748] is a two-party protocol spoken between the EAP peer and server. Within EAP, keying material is generated by EAP methods. Part of this keying material may be used by EAP methods themselves and part of this material may be exported. In addition to export of keying material, EAP methods may also export associated parameters, and may import and export Channel Bindings from the lower layer. As illustrated in Figure 1, the EAP method key derivation has at the root the long term credential utilized by the selected EAP method. If authentication is based on a pre-shared key, the parties store the EAP method to be used and the pre-shared key. The EAP server also stores the peer's identity and/or other information necessary to decide whether access to some service should be granted. The peer stores information necessary to choose which secret to use for which service. If authentication is based on proof of possession of the private key corresponding to the public key contained within a certificate, the parties store the EAP method to be used and the trust anchors used to validate the certificates. The EAP server also stores the peer's identity and/or other information necessary to decide whether access to some service should be granted. The peer stores information necessary to choose which certificate to use for which service. Based on the long term credential established between the peer and the server, EAP derives two types of keys: [1] Keys calculated locally by the EAP method but not exported by the EAP method, such as the TEKs. [2] Keying material exported by the EAP method: MSK, EMSK, IV. As noted in [RFC3748] Section 7.10, EAP methods generating keys are required to calculate and export the MSK and EMSK, which must be at least 64 octets in length. EAP methods also may export the IV; however, the use of the IV is deprecated. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ---+ | | ^ | EAP Method | | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | | | | | | | | | | EAP Method Key |<->| Long-Term | | | | | Derivation | | Credential | | | | | | | | | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Local to | | | | | EAP | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Method | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | | | | TEK | |MSK, EMSK | |IV | | | | | |Derivation | |Derivation | |Derivation | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ +-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | | | | | | | | | ^ | | | V +-+-|-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-|-+-+-+-+-+-|-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-|-+-+-+ ---+ | | | | ^ | Peer-ID, | | | Exported| | Server-ID, | Channel | MSK (64+B) | IV (64B) by | | Method-ID, | Bindings | EMSK (64+B) | EAP | | Key-Lifetime | & Result | | Method | V V V V V Figure 1: EAP Parameter Import/Export EAP methods also MAY export method-specific peer and server identifiers (peer-ID and server-ID), a method-specific EAP conversation identifier known as the Method-ID, and the lifetime of the exported keys, known the Key-Lifetime. EAP methods MAY also support the import and export of Channel Bindings. New EAP method specifications MUST define the Peer-ID, Server-ID and Method-ID. The combination of the Peer-ID and Server-ID uniquely specifies the endpoints of the EAP method exchange. Peer-ID As described in [RFC3748] Section 7.3, the identity provided in the EAP-Response/Identity, may be different from the peer identity authenticated by the EAP method. Where the EAP method authenticates the peer identity, that identity is exported by the method as the Peer-ID. A suitable EAP peer name may not always be available. Where an EAP method does not define a method-specific peer identity, the Peer-ID is the null string. The Peer-ID for existing EAP methods is defined in Appendix E. Server-ID Where the EAP method authenticates the server identity, that identity is exported by the method as the Server-ID. A suitable EAP server name may not always be available. Where an EAP method does not define a method-specific peer identity, the Server-ID is the null string. The Server-ID for existing EAP methods is defined in Appendix E. Method-ID EAP method specifications deriving keys MUST specify a temporally unique method identifier known as the Method-ID. The EAP Method- ID uniquely identifies an EAP session of a given Type between an EAP peer and server. The Method-ID is typically constructed from nonces or counters used within the EAP method exchange. The Method-ID for existing EAP methods is defined in Appendix E. Session-ID The Session-ID uniquely identifies an EAP session between an EAP peer (as identified by the Peer-ID) and server (as identified by the Server-ID). The EAP Session-ID consists of the concatenation of the Expanded EAP Type Code (including the Type, Vendor-ID and Vendor-Type fields defined in [RFC3748] Section 5.7) and the Method-ID. Key-Lifetime While EAP itself does not support key lifetime negotiation, it is possible to specify methods that do. However, systems that rely on such negotiation for exported keys would only function with these methods. As a result, it is NOT RECOMMENDED to use this approach as the sole way to determine key lifetimes. Channel Bindings Channel Bindings include lower layer parameters that are verified for consistency between the EAP peer and server. In order to avoid introducing media dependencies, EAP methods MUST treat Channel Bindings as opaque octets. Typically the EAP method imports Channel Bindings from the lower layer on the peer, and transmits them securely to the EAP server, which exports them to the lower layer. However, transport may occur from EAP server to peer, or may be bi-directional. On the side of the exchange (peer or server) where Channel Bindings are verified, the lower layer passes the result of the verification (TRUE or FALSE) up to the EAP method. Layering As illustrated in Figure 2, keying material and parameters exported by EAP methods are passed down to the EAP peer or authenticator layers, which passes them to the EAP layer. Keying material and related parameters (including Channel Bindings) MUST NOT be cached by the EAP peer or authenticator layers, or the EAP layer. Based on the Method-ID exported by the EAP method, the EAP layer forms the EAP Session-ID by concatenating the EAP Expanded Type with the Method-ID. Together with the MSK, EMSK, IV, Peer-ID, Server-ID, and Key-Lifetime, the EAP layer passes the Session-ID down to the lower layer. The Method-ID is exported by EAP methods rather than the Session-ID so as to prevent EAP methods from writing into each other's Session- ID space. Lower layers MAY cache keying material and related parameters, including Channel Bindings. Lower Layer behavior is discussed in more detail in Section TBD. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | | | | | EAP method | | | | MSK, EMSK, IV, Channel | | Peer-ID, Server-ID, Bindings | | Method-ID, | | Key-Lifetime | | | | V ^ ^ | +-+-+-+-!-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-!-+-+-+-+-!-+-+ | ! ! ! | | EAP ! Peer or Authenticator ! ! | | ! layer ! ! | | ! ! ! | +-+-+-+-!-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-!-+-+-+-+-!-+-+ | ! ! ! | | EAP ! layer ! ! | | ! ! ! | | ! Session-ID = ! ! | | ! Expanded-Type || ! ! | | ! Method-ID ! ! | | ! ! ! | +-+-+-+-!-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-!-+-+-+-+-!-+-+ | ! ! ! | | Lower ! layer ! ! | | ! ! ! | | V V ^ | | MSK, EMSK, IV, Channel Result | | Peer-ID, Server-ID, Bindings | | Session-ID, | | Key-Lifetime | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Figure 2: Flow of EAP parameters Key Naming The naming of keys within the EAP key hierarchy is based on the EAP Session-ID. MSK Name This key is created between the EAP peer and EAP server, and can be referred to using the string "MSK:", concatenated with the EAP Session-ID. EMSK Name The EMSK can be referred to using the string "EMSK:", concatenated with the EAP Session-ID. IV Name Use of the IV is deprecated. However, if necessary the IV can be referred to using the string "IV:" concatenated with the EAP Session-ID. PMK Name This document does not specify a naming scheme for the PMK. The PMK is only identified by the key from which it is derived. Note: IEEE 802.11i names the PMKID for the purposes of being able to refer to it in the Secure Association protocol; this naming is based on a hash of the PMK itself as well as some other parameters (see Section 8.5.1.2 [IEEE-802.11i]). TEKs The TEKs may or may not be named. Their naming is specified in the EAP method. EAP Invariants Certain basic characteristics, known as "EAP Invariants", hold true for EAP implementations on all media: Mode independence Media independence Method independence Ciphersuite independence Mode Independence EAP as defined in [RFC3748] is a two party protocol spoken between the EAP peer and server. A fundamental property of EAP is that at the EAP method layer, the conversation between the EAP peer and server is unaffected by whether the EAP authenticator is operating in "pass-through" mode. EAP methods operate identically in all aspects, including key derivation and parameter import/export, regardless of whether the authenticator is operating as a pass-through or not. The successful completion of an EAP method that supports key derivation results in the export of keying material on the EAP peer and server. Even though the EAP peer or server may import Channel-Bindings that may include the identity of the EAP authenticator, this information is treated as opaque octets. As a result, within EAP the only relevant identities are the Peer-ID and Server-ID. Channel Bindings are only interpreted by the lower layer. Within EAP, the primary function of the AAA protocol is to maintain the principle of Mode Independence, so that as far as the EAP peer is concerned, its conversation with the EAP authenticator, and all consequences of that conversation, are identical, regardless of the authenticator mode of operation. Media Independence One of the goals of EAP is to allow EAP methods to function on any lower layer meeting the criteria outlined in [RFC3748], Section 3.1. For example, as described in [RFC3748], EAP authentication can be run over PPP [RFC1661], IEEE 802 wired networks [IEEE-802.1X], and IEEE 802.11 wireless LANs [IEEE-802.11i]. In order to maintain media independence, it is necessary for EAP to avoid consideration of media-specific elements. For example, EAP methods cannot be assumed to have knowledge of the lower layer over which they are transported, and cannot be restricted to identifiers associated with a particular usage environment (e.g. MAC addresses). Note that media independence may be retained within EAP methods that support Channel-Bindings or method-specific identification. An EAP method need not be aware of the content of an identifier in order to use it. This enables an EAP method to use media-specific identifiers such as MAC addresses without compromising media independence. Channel-Bindings are treated as opaque octets by EAP methods, so that handling them does not require media-specific knowledge. Method Independence By enabling pass-through, authenticators can support any method implemented on the peer and server, not just locally implemented methods. This allows the authenticator to avoid implementing code for each EAP method required by peers. In fact, since a pass-through authenticator is not required to implement any EAP methods at all, it cannot be assumed to support any EAP method-specific code. As a result, as noted in [RFC3748], authenticators must by default be capable of supporting any EAP method. This is useful where there is no single EAP method that is both mandatory-to-implement and offers acceptable security for the media in use. For example, the [RFC3748] mandatory-to-implement EAP method (MD5-Challenge) does not provide dictionary attack resistance, mutual authentication or key derivation, and as a result is not appropriate for use in wireless LAN authentication [RFC4017]. However, despite this it is possible for the peer and authenticator to interoperate as long as a suitable EAP method is supported on the EAP server. Ciphersuite Independence Ciphersuite Independence is a consequence of the principles of Mode Independence and Media Independence. While EAP methods may negotiate the ciphersuite used in protection of the EAP conversation, the ciphersuite used for the protection of the data exchanged after EAP authentication has completed is negotiated between the peer and authenticator within the lower layer, outside of EAP. Since the ciphersuites used to protect data depend on the lower layer, requiring EAP methods have knowledge of lower layer ciphersuites would compromise the principle of Media Indepence. Since ciphersuite negotiation occurs in the lower layer, there is no need for ciphersuite negotiation within EAP, and EAP methods generate keying material that is ciphersuite-independent. For example, within PPP, the ciphersuite is negotiated within the Encryption Control Protocol (ECP) defined in [RFC1968], after EAP authentication is completed. Within [IEEE-802.11i], the AP ciphersuites are advertised in the Beacon and Probe Responses prior to EAP authentication, and are securely verified during a 4-way handshake exchange. Advantages of ciphersuite-independence include: Reduced update requirements If EAP methods were to specify how to derive transient session keys for each ciphersuite, they would need to be updated each time a new ciphersuite is developed. In addition, backend authentication servers might not be usable with all EAP-capable authenticators, since the backend authentication server would also need to be updated each time support for a new ciphersuite is added to the authenticator. Reduced EAP method complexity Requiring each EAP method to include ciphersuite-specific code for transient session key derivation would increase method complexity and result in duplicated effort. Simplified configuration The ciphersuite is negotiated between the peer and authenticator outside of EAP. Where the authenticator operates in "pass-through" mode, the EAP server is not a party to this negotiation, nor is it involved in the data flow between the EAP peer and authenticator. As a result, the EAP server may not have knowledge of the ciphersuites and negotiation policies implemented by the peer and authenticator, or be aware of the ciphersuite negotiated between them. For example, since ECP negotiation occurs after authentication, when run over PPP, the EAP peer and server may not anticipate the negotiated ciphersuite and therefore this information cannot be provided to the EAP method. Appendix E - Exported Parameters in Existing Methods This Appendix specifies Method-ID, Peer-ID, Server-ID and Key- Lifetime for EAP methods that have been published prior to this specification. Future EAP method specifications MUST include a definition of the Method-ID, Peer-ID, and Server-ID (could be the empty string) and MAY also define the Key-Lifetime (assumed to be indeterminate if not described). EAP-Identity The EAP-Identity method does not derive keys, and therefore does not define the Key-Lifetime or Method-ID. The Peer-ID exported by the Identity method is determined by the octets included within the EAP- Response/Identity. The Server-ID is the empty string (zero length). EAP-Notification The EAP-Notification method does not derive keys and therefore does not define the Key-Lifetime and Method-ID. The Peer-ID and Server-ID are the empty string (zero length). EAP-GTC The EAP-GTC method does not derive keys and therefore does not define the Key-Lifetime and Method-ID. The Peer-ID and Server-ID are the empty string. EAP-OTP The EAP-OTP method does not derive keys and therefore does not define the Key-Lifetime and Method-ID. The Peer-ID and Server-ID are the empty string. EAP-TLS The EAP-TLS Method-Id is the concatenation of the peer and server nonces. The Peer-ID and Server-ID are the contents of the altSubjectName in the peer and server certificates. EAP-TLS does not negotiate a Key-Lifetime. EAP-AKA The EAP-AKA Method-Id is the contents of the RAND field from the AT_RAND attribute, followed by the contents of the AUTN field in the AT_AUTN attribute. The Peer-ID is the contents of the Identity field from the AT_IDENTITY attribute, using only the Actual Identity Length octets from the beginning, however. Note that the contents are used as they are transmitted, regardless of whether the transmitted identity was a permanent, pseudonym, or fast reauthentication identity. The Server- ID is an empty string. EAP-AKA does not negotiate a key lifetime. EAP-SIM The Method-Id is the contents of the RAND field from the AT_RAND attribute, followed by the contents of the NONCE_MT field in the AT_NONCE_MT attribute. The Peer-ID is the contents of the Identity field from the AT_IDENTITY attribute, using only the Actual Identity Length octets from the beginning, however. Note that the contents are used as they are transmitted, regardless of whether the transmitted identity was a permanent, pseudonym, or fast reauthentication identity. The Server- ID is an empty string. 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1DXgqk-0005YX-98; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:45:42 -0400 Received: from [200.75.34.244] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DXga6-0001Y6-5o; Mon, 16 May 2005 10:28:31 -0400 Received: from corroboree.backcountryinc.com (200.75.34.244) by 200.75.34.244 with Microsoft SMTP238(1.4.96.06); Mon, 16 May 2005 21:22:05 +0600 Received: from 200.75.34.244 (amalee[200.75.34.244]) by beato.backcountryinc.com (ovxp04) with SMTP id <29290895fgnh923ux>;Mon, 16 May 2005 14:21:05 -0100 Message-ID: Reply-To: "petra adele" From: "petra adele" To: iptel-request@ietf.org Cc: ran@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, maddogs@ietf.org, workshop@ietf.org, seamoby-admin@ietf.org, ipoverib-admin@ietf.org, dccp-request@ietf.org, manet@ietf.org, vrrp@ietf.org, subip-area@ietf.org, dinaras@ietf.org, urn-nid-admin@ietf.org, ieprep@ietf.org, gaco@ietf.org, magma-admin@ietf.org, p2prg-web-archive@ietf.org Subject: We need more info to approve your account Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:20:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--36688_86522168.ns747" X-Spam-Score: 8.6 (++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a ----36688_86522168.ns747 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit We tried to contact you earlier about flnancing your home at a lower rate.
We would like to let you know that we have gone ahead and started
the approval process,

Here are the results:
*Negotiable Amount: $50,000 - $400,000
*Rate: 4.95% - 5.25%

Please fill out this form and a broker will contact you soon.
Processing Form

Best Regards,

Derek Jackson,
Account Manager

---------------------

No future contact:
no thanks

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We would like to let you know that we have gone ahead and started
the approval process,

Here are the results:
*Negotiable Amount: $100,000 - $600,000
*Rate: 4.87% - 5.36%

Please fill out this form and a broker will contact you soon.
Processing Form

Best Regards,

Carol Burnett,
Account Manager

---------------------

No future contact:
no thanks

nafsikahumilitydiener ----12281_8352635.qW49-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 17 00:58:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA15538 for ; Tue, 17 May 2005 00:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0565D20524; Tue, 17 May 2005 00:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38B92050E; Tue, 17 May 2005 00:58:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BB52050E for ; Tue, 17 May 2005 00:57:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B487202CA for ; Tue, 17 May 2005 00:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4H4vPnf028291; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:57:25 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j4H4vPbk011136; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:57:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id PAA11122 ; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:57:25 +0900 Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4H4vPJH016891; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:57:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j4H4vLXH014586; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:57:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4H4vKu6027918; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:57:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead (iVPN11-057.mobile.toshiba.co.jp) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IGM00DWLB20WD@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Tue, 17 May 2005 13:57:13 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DXttz-00037C-00; Mon, 16 May 2005 21:41:55 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-reply-to: To: Bernard Aboba Cc: "Salowey, Joe" , eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050517044152.GC11712@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69052B93B8@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:41:52 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 11:06:09PM -0700, Bernard Aboba wrote: > > [Joe] I need some help with terminology here. Isn't it that EAP is > > spoken between the EAP peer and authenticator unless the authenticator > > is running in pass-through mode in which case it is spoken between the > > EAP peer and an EAP server? If this is the case then we probably have > > to adjust some of the terminology used below. > > As defined in RFC 3748, the term "EAP server" applies in both the > pass-through and non-pass-through cases. Where there is no pass-through, > the "EAP server" and "EAP authenticator" are the same entity. Since the EAP authenticator is the entity that does timer-based retransmission of EAP-Requests, it is pretty strange to me to hear that the EAP server is one end of the EAP protocol. My understanding of RFC 3748 is: - EAP is a two-party protocol defined between a peer and an authenticator. - An EAP method is defined between a peer and a server. - It is possible to implement the authenticator and the server in different physical entities. Yoshihiro Ohba _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 17 01:48:11 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA19771 for ; Tue, 17 May 2005 01:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13FBC2054D; Tue, 17 May 2005 01:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7628320530; Tue, 17 May 2005 01:48:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B44920530 for ; Tue, 17 May 2005 01:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA982038A for ; Tue, 17 May 2005 01:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4H5lnnf023307; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:47:49 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j4H5loZL029666; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:47:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id QAA29653 ; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:47:49 +0900 Received: from mx2.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4H5lnMF014310; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:47:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j4H5lf7w027301; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:47:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4H5lfu6017717; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:47:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead (iVPN11-057.mobile.toshiba.co.jp) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IGM001Q6DEBLX@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Tue, 17 May 2005 14:47:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DXuPT-00039m-00; Mon, 16 May 2005 22:14:27 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-reply-to: To: Bernard Aboba Cc: Jari Arkko , eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050517051423.GE11712@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i References: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:14:23 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 05:57:05PM -0700, Bernard Aboba wrote: > Here is some revised text which adds in support for Channel Bindings, > removes the dangling AAA references, and cleans up other miscellaneous > issues. Next, I'll work on cleaning up the text relating to the lower > layer. (snip) > > Key Naming > > The naming of keys within the EAP key hierarchy is based on the EAP > Session-ID. I have a fundamental question on why we need to define a name to each of key derived from a given SA. This question has came up while I was reviewing IEEE 802.16e document in which a bunch of key names are defined. For example, in RFC 2401, an IPsec SA is identified with three parameters, i.e., an SPI, an Destination IP Address and a security protocol(*). What is the importance of concatenating those parameters into a string? Also, an IPsec SA has several ciphering keys such as encryption keys and integriry keys, but once an SA is identified with the above parameters, I don't see an importance to give a name to each ciphering key within the SA. It seems to me that defining, for each SA type, a set of parameters that are needed to identifiy an SA among different SAs of the same type, seems to be important and sufficient. Giving a name to every key that belongs to the same SA does not make much sense. (*) In rfc2401bis, an IPsec SA is identified just with an SPI. Yoshihiro Ohba > > MSK Name > > This key is created between the EAP peer and EAP server, and can > be referred to using the string "MSK:", concatenated with the EAP > Session-ID. > > EMSK Name > > The EMSK can be referred to using the string "EMSK:", concatenated > with the EAP Session-ID. > > IV Name > > Use of the IV is deprecated. However, if necessary the IV can be > referred to using the string "IV:" concatenated with the EAP > Session-ID. > > PMK Name > > This document does not specify a naming scheme for the PMK. The > PMK is only identified by the key from which it is derived. > > Note: IEEE 802.11i names the PMKID for the purposes of being able > to refer to it in the Secure Association protocol; this naming is > based on a hash of the PMK itself as well as some other parameters > (see Section 8.5.1.2 [IEEE-802.11i]). > > TEKs > > The TEKs may or may not be named. Their naming is specified in the > EAP method. > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From sfewukcu@4inspectors.com Tue May 17 02:40:42 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA14266; Tue, 17 May 2005 02:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [24.206.233.43] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DXw1d-00017E-Vr; Tue, 17 May 2005 02:57:59 -0400 Received: from differentialVRMEDIO.edu.ar ([10.0.2.245]) by uccor.edu.ar (7.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with SMTP id TAA12004; Tue, 17 May 2005 01:39:09 -0600 Message-Id: <245201877518.j0NFIAQ6002045@w3ltd01> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:35:09 +0400 From: "Bert Dye" To: Subject: size does matter! 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no From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 17 03:48:28 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA19208 for ; Tue, 17 May 2005 03:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524E720594; Tue, 17 May 2005 03:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D7E2058A; Tue, 17 May 2005 03:48:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C9520524 for ; Tue, 17 May 2005 03:47:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50462056E for ; Tue, 17 May 2005 03:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.51) id 1DXwnq-000NL1-5i; Tue, 17 May 2005 03:47:46 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4H7lij22942; Tue, 17 May 2005 00:47:44 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: Yoshihiro Ohba Cc: Jari Arkko , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-Reply-To: <20050517051423.GE11712@steelhead> Message-ID: References: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> <20050517051423.GE11712@steelhead> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:47:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > I have a fundamental question on why we need to define a name to each > of key derived from a given SA. This question has came up while I was > reviewing IEEE 802.16e document in which a bunch of key names are > defined. The EAP Session-ID is effectively an SA name. If the peer and authenticator both have the same understanding of what the keys within the SA are used for, then I think there is no need to name the keys individually. For example, if we were to meet and shake hands, I would only need to greet you, I would not need to make up a name for each of your fingers :) However, if it is possible that the keys within the SA will be used in different ways, then it seems possible that naming them separately might be needed. For example, if it is possible that a given authenticator might have both the MSK and an AMSK derived from the EMSK, both derived from a conversation named by the same EAP Session-ID, and if the peer might be able to choose between them, then it would need to have separate names. However, the usefulness of a label is not clear. For example, the peer could say "I am selecting the MSK within the SA described by this EAP Session-ID" in many ways. Note that it is the lower layer that needs to name keys, not EAP. Since EAP does not cache keying material or parameters, it never needs to refer to them once they are created and pushed down the lower layer. > For example, in RFC 2401, an IPsec SA is identified with three > parameters, i.e., an SPI, an Destination IP Address and a security > protocol(*). What is the importance of concatenating those parameters > into a string? I do not think that is needed because there is never a need to refer to the SA in that manner. However, in key selection, a peer may need to indicate which specific key it is attempting to select, in case there are more than one. > Also, an IPsec SA has several ciphering keys such as encryption keys > and integriry keys, but once an SA is identified with the above > parameters, I don't see an importance to give a name to each ciphering > key within the SA. This isn't necessary in IPsec because it is clearly defined what is used for what. You can't use the encryption key for integrity or the integrity key for encryption. Therefore one only needs to be clear about which SA is being used. > It seems to me that defining, for each SA type, a set of parameters > that are needed to identifiy an SA among different SAs of the same > type, seems to be important and sufficient. Giving a name to every > key that belongs to the same SA does not make much sense. I think this make sense, except for a situation in which it might be necessary to select between multiple keys within an SA (as in selection within a key cache). 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amazement the speed and precision with which Blood and his
desper = the
first. = As the Captain's evidence concluded, Lord Jeffreys looked across
= with this? Answer
me! = gold-hilted sword dangling beside him from a gold
embroidered = Of course. The Admiral smiled. I had guessed it. Whom the
go = torment could bring no regrets, he had kept the thought of her
ev = Colonel Bishop holds us. We're in no case either to run or
figh = thickly plaited straw that had been steeped in bitumen. First
it = appearance nothing of the buccaneer. He had much more the air
of = To the roundhouse, some of you, and fetch the Spanish
prisoners. = To Levasseur's relief, Captain Blood not only agreed, but
pronoun =
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C57B26.4289F5C0-- From bellviewspromo@o2.pl Tue May 17 11:43:41 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA07392 for ; Tue, 17 May 2005 11:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200505171543.LAA07392@ietf.org> Received: from wbs-196-2-117-44.wbs.co.za ([196.2.117.44] helo=mrson2525.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DY4VC-0006F3-NZ for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 May 2005 12:01:04 -0400 From: "BELLVIEWS SWEEPSTAKES PROMO" Reply-To: bellviewspromo@o2.pl To: eap-archive@ietf.org Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:43:41 -0700 Subject: Your Lucky Day !!! 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From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 18 01:22:12 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA28443 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 01:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7672820573; Wed, 18 May 2005 01:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA552045C; Wed, 18 May 2005 01:22:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF482045C for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 01:21:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3519B20441 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 01:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4I5LInf008376; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:21:18 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j4I5LIcC001706; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:21:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id QAA01692 ; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:21:18 +0900 Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4I5LHXc014577; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:21:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j4I5LADo020844; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:21:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4I5L9u8018908; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:21:09 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead (iVPN11-193.mobile.toshiba.co.jp) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IGO00KN16T9K9@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Wed, 18 May 2005 14:21:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DYGZL-0003Vm-00; Tue, 17 May 2005 21:54:07 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-reply-to: To: Bernard Aboba Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba , Jari Arkko , eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050518045404.GJ11712@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i References: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> <20050517051423.GE11712@steelhead> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:54:04 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 12:47:44AM -0700, Bernard Aboba wrote: > > I have a fundamental question on why we need to define a name to each > > of key derived from a given SA. This question has came up while I was > > reviewing IEEE 802.16e document in which a bunch of key names are > > defined. > > The EAP Session-ID is effectively an SA name. I think naming the SA as a octetstring is over-specifying. Isn't it sufficient to say "the SA is identifed by Expanded EAP Type Code and Method-ID"? > If the peer and > authenticator both have the same understanding of what the keys within the > SA are used for, then I think there is no need to name the keys > individually. I agree. > > For example, if we were to meet and shake hands, I would only need to > greet you, I would not need to make up a name for each of your fingers :) > > However, if it is possible that the keys within the SA will be used in > different ways, then it seems possible that naming them separately might > be needed. > > For example, if it is possible that a given authenticator might have both > the MSK and an AMSK derived from the EMSK, both derived from a > conversation named by the same EAP Session-ID, and if the peer might be > able to choose between them, then it would need to have separate names. > > However, the usefulness of a label is not clear. For example, the peer > could say "I am selecting the MSK within the SA described by this EAP > Session-ID" in many ways. I agree. > > Note that it is the lower layer that needs to name keys, not EAP. Since > EAP does not cache keying material or parameters, it never needs to refer > to them once they are created and pushed down the lower layer. > > > For example, in RFC 2401, an IPsec SA is identified with three > > parameters, i.e., an SPI, an Destination IP Address and a security > > protocol(*). What is the importance of concatenating those parameters > > into a string? > > I do not think that is needed because there is never a need to refer to > the SA in that manner. However, in key selection, a peer may need to > indicate which specific key it is attempting to select, in case there are > more than one. I agree and please see below for some examples. > > > Also, an IPsec SA has several ciphering keys such as encryption keys > > and integriry keys, but once an SA is identified with the above > > parameters, I don't see an importance to give a name to each ciphering > > key within the SA. > > This isn't necessary in IPsec because it is clearly defined what is used > for what. You can't use the encryption key for integrity or the integrity > key for encryption. Therefore one only needs to be clear about which SA > is being used. > > > It seems to me that defining, for each SA type, a set of parameters > > that are needed to identifiy an SA among different SAs of the same > > type, seems to be important and sufficient. Giving a name to every > > key that belongs to the same SA does not make much sense. > > I think this make sense, except for a situation in which it might be > necessary to select between multiple keys within an SA (as in selection > within a key cache). Perhaps the right answer is to make sure such a > situation never occurs (no mixed key caches). > If a key caching is allowed, then I agree that we might need some label for key versioning within an SA. For example, PANA defines Key-Id AVP for that purpose. Similary, when an MSK is exported to a particular EAP lower-layer session every time re-authentication is performed for that session, each MSK for that session may be carried with a key version information when it is carried from an EAP server to an authenticator over a AAA protocol. Yoshihiro Ohba _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From EBVUN@bunshunplaza.com Wed May 18 01:44:47 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA29857; Wed, 18 May 2005 01:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.201.176.159] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DYHck-0004nb-Pp; Wed, 18 May 2005 02:02:09 -0400 Received: from sorongohost ([140.140.181.251] helo=wagging.rigid.net) Received: by seabhost.mistus.net (mlFix, from userid 752) id 3AE76784E7; Wed, 18 May 2005 04:37:33 -0200 Message-Id: <38F743B-968065CB0118@mac.com> Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:32:33 +0100 From: "Sharron Leary" To: Subject: Erectile Dysfunction ruining your sex life? 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Start saving now, click that link: http://www.premium-mortgages.com/2/index/bvk stile fij tipoff bv deemphasize ttb conner xpp continuity dft tolerate chq cole lwm gigging dq http://premium-mortgages.com/rem.php From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 18 02:07:12 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA08404 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 02:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B297C20545; Wed, 18 May 2005 02:07:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA5A20441; Wed, 18 May 2005 02:07:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61B420441 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 02:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C142043E for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 02:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.51) id 1DYHhi-000FWz-Jh; Wed, 18 May 2005 02:06:50 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4I66kx09585; Tue, 17 May 2005 23:06:46 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: Yoshihiro Ohba Cc: Jari Arkko , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-Reply-To: <20050518045404.GJ11712@steelhead> Message-ID: References: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> <20050517051423.GE11712@steelhead> <20050518045404.GJ11712@steelhead> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:06:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > > The EAP Session-ID is effectively an SA name. > > I think naming the SA as a octetstring is over-specifying. Isn't it > sufficient to say "the SA is identifed by Expanded EAP Type Code and > Method-ID"? Since the SA section was somewhat confusing to people, I'd prefer to say "the EAP conversation is identified by the Expanded EAP Type Code and Method-ID". I agree that defining the format is not required in the Key Framework document, but presumably it is required in the documents that define attribute carrying a key name or EAP session-ID. Unfortunately, Diameter EAP does not define the format for the key-name attribute, but references the EAP Key Framework draft for this (non-normatively at that). So if the Key Management framework document doesn't define the format, then we would need to add this to the Diameter EAP document. Since it's now in AUTH48, that might force it to be recycled to the AAA WG. > If a key caching is allowed, then I agree that we might need some > label for key versioning within an SA. For example, PANA defines > Key-Id AVP for that purpose. Similary, when an MSK is exported to a > particular EAP lower-layer session every time re-authentication is > performed for that session, each MSK for that session may be carried > with a key version information when it is carried from an EAP server > to an authenticator over a AAA protocol. However, if it is clearly understood that the lower layer always uses the MSK, then the EAP Session-ID should be sufficient. Similarly, if an AMSK with a particular label is always used, then the EAP Session-ID is also sufficient. However, if *both* an MSK and AMSK could be used (as in the pre-emptive keying proposal by Arbaugh), then it is possible that both an MSK and AMSK might be present on the same authenticator, and then a means would be necessary to differentiate them. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From solido@didamail.com Wed May 18 02:07:19 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA08557; Wed, 18 May 2005 02:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [222.237.252.236] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DYHz4-0005vm-D4; Wed, 18 May 2005 02:24:48 -0400 X-Apparently-To: eamoby@ietf.org X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from window.lotion.pochta.ru ([unix socket]) by kitten.errant.pochta.ru (Cyrus v2.2.7) with LMTPA; Wed, 18 May 2005 01:02:59 -0600 Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 05:00:59 -0200 From: "Diego Smart" Message-Id: X-Accept-Language: en,zh-TW,zh-CN,zh,ja,ko,tr,ru To: eamoby@ietf.org Cc: eap-archive@ietf.org, eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org, ediint-archive@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org, edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org, edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org Subject: You've been selected for a low rate X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate.= You have qualified for the lowest rate in years... 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Isn't it > > sufficient to say "the SA is identifed by Expanded EAP Type Code and > > Method-ID"? > > Since the SA section was somewhat confusing to people, I'd prefer to say > "the EAP conversation is identified by the Expanded EAP Type Code and > Method-ID". > > I agree that defining the format is not required in the Key Framework > document, but presumably it is required in the documents that define > attribute carrying a key name or EAP session-ID. Yes. > > Unfortunately, Diameter EAP does not define the format for the key-name > attribute, but references the EAP Key Framework draft for this > (non-normatively at that). > > So if the Key Management framework document doesn't define the format, > then we would need to add this to the Diameter EAP document. Since it's > now in AUTH48, that might force it to be recycled to the AAA WG. If I understand your comment correctly, even if the key Management framework document defines EAP session-ID (or some other attribute that servers as key versioning), if Diameter EAP needs to carry that attribute, I think the attribute needs to be added in Diameter EAP document and recycling would be needed anyways. > > > If a key caching is allowed, then I agree that we might need some > > label for key versioning within an SA. For example, PANA defines > > Key-Id AVP for that purpose. Similary, when an MSK is exported to a > > particular EAP lower-layer session every time re-authentication is > > performed for that session, each MSK for that session may be carried > > with a key version information when it is carried from an EAP server > > to an authenticator over a AAA protocol. > > However, if it is clearly understood that the lower layer always uses the > MSK, then the EAP Session-ID should be sufficient. I agree. > > Similarly, if an AMSK with a particular label is always used, then the EAP > Session-ID is also sufficient. I agree. > > However, if *both* an MSK and AMSK could be used (as in the pre-emptive > keying proposal by Arbaugh), then it is possible that both an MSK and AMSK > might be present on the same authenticator, and then a means would be > necessary to differentiate them. Yes. One means for that is to define a different type of AVP/attribute for a AAA protocol to differenciate AMSK from MSK. 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Two days later, the Cinco Llagas sailed into the rock-bound bay
o = slavery, because I had performed an act of mercy;
because = excessive work on the sugar plantation under a pitiless sun,
the = I'll see you damned before I do, fumed his
lordship. = explained
himself. = This interest in a stranger ... he began. Then changed
the = was extremely angry. He bounded to his feet, and every man in
th = lately as yesterday would have turned pale under his frown,
faces = knowing how I am going to take it out again. I shall send an
off = could truthfully be said for the Barbados Militia. Having
gained = she paused and faced
him. = as you might afford
him. = fool, Ogle, you wouldn't need me to tell you this. We've got
to =
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C575B5.428B3F4D-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 18 09:04:09 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA16068 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B96205B9; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBA12047C; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:04:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B999D2047C for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACDDF20429 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4ID3Wnf000146; Wed, 18 May 2005 22:03:32 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j4ID3XFi017991; Wed, 18 May 2005 22:03:33 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id YAA17989 ; Wed, 18 May 2005 22:03:33 +0900 Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4ID3WGI023194; Wed, 18 May 2005 22:03:32 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j4ID3WNi018514; Wed, 18 May 2005 22:03:32 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4ID3Vu6000659; Wed, 18 May 2005 22:03:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead (att01-020.mobile.toshiba.co.jp) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IGO004SSS9JJH@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Wed, 18 May 2005 22:03:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DYHS8-0003a9-00; Tue, 17 May 2005 22:50:44 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-reply-to: To: Bernard Aboba Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba , Jari Arkko , eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050518055041.GK11712@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i References: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> <20050517051423.GE11712@steelhead> <20050518045404.GJ11712@steelhead> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 01:50:41 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 11:06:46PM -0700, Bernard Aboba wrote: > > > The EAP Session-ID is effectively an SA name. > > > > I think naming the SA as a octetstring is over-specifying. Isn't it > > sufficient to say "the SA is identifed by Expanded EAP Type Code and > > Method-ID"? > > Since the SA section was somewhat confusing to people, I'd prefer to say > "the EAP conversation is identified by the Expanded EAP Type Code and > Method-ID". > > I agree that defining the format is not required in the Key Framework > document, but presumably it is required in the documents that define > attribute carrying a key name or EAP session-ID. Yes. > > Unfortunately, Diameter EAP does not define the format for the key-name > attribute, but references the EAP Key Framework draft for this > (non-normatively at that). > > So if the Key Management framework document doesn't define the format, > then we would need to add this to the Diameter EAP document. Since it's > now in AUTH48, that might force it to be recycled to the AAA WG. If I understand your comment correctly, even if the key Management framework document defines EAP session-ID (or some other attribute that servers as key versioning), if Diameter EAP needs to carry that attribute, I think the attribute needs to be added in Diameter EAP document and recycling would be needed anyways. > > > If a key caching is allowed, then I agree that we might need some > > label for key versioning within an SA. For example, PANA defines > > Key-Id AVP for that purpose. Similary, when an MSK is exported to a > > particular EAP lower-layer session every time re-authentication is > > performed for that session, each MSK for that session may be carried > > with a key version information when it is carried from an EAP server > > to an authenticator over a AAA protocol. > > However, if it is clearly understood that the lower layer always uses the > MSK, then the EAP Session-ID should be sufficient. I agree. > > Similarly, if an AMSK with a particular label is always used, then the EAP > Session-ID is also sufficient. I agree. > > However, if *both* an MSK and AMSK could be used (as in the pre-emptive > keying proposal by Arbaugh), then it is possible that both an MSK and AMSK > might be present on the same authenticator, and then a means would be > necessary to differentiate them. Yes. One means for that is to define a different type of AVP/attribute for a AAA protocol to differenciate AMSK from MSK. Yoshihiro Ohba _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 18 09:52:09 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA21589 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3AD205EB; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE31205C9; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:52:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16002205C9 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64DA7205B5 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.51) id 1DYOxX-000Omw-9y; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:51:39 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4IDpbr06042; Wed, 18 May 2005 06:51:37 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: Yoshihiro Ohba Cc: Jari Arkko , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-Reply-To: <20050518055041.GK11712@steelhead> Message-ID: References: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> <20050517051423.GE11712@steelhead> <20050518045404.GJ11712@steelhead> <20050518055041.GK11712@steelhead> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:51:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > If I understand your comment correctly, even if the key Management > framework document defines EAP session-ID (or some other attribute > that servers as key versioning), if Diameter EAP needs to carry that > attribute, I think the attribute needs to be added in Diameter EAP > document and recycling would be needed anyways. Yes, I think that's true. > Yes. One means for that is to define a different type of > AVP/attribute for a AAA protocol to differenciate AMSK from MSK. I think this would require defining of a grouped AVP, since if there are multiple keys to be sent it would be necessary to tie together the key, session-ID and key-type AVPs. It also might make sense to define AVPs for the Peer-ID, Server-ID and Key-Lifetime within the same grouped AVP. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 18 10:00:14 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22322 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 10:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 537B420600; Wed, 18 May 2005 10:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE689205EB; Wed, 18 May 2005 10:00:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE397205DC for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:59:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B6C205D4 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 09:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172FE89869; Wed, 18 May 2005 16:58:59 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <428B4A2D.3020604@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence References: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> <20050517051423.GE11712@steelhead> <20050518045404.GJ11712@steelhead> <20050518055041.GK11712@steelhead> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:59:09 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba wrote: >>If I understand your comment correctly, even if the key Management >>framework document defines EAP session-ID (or some other attribute >>that servers as key versioning), if Diameter EAP needs to carry that >>attribute, I think the attribute needs to be added in Diameter EAP >>document and recycling would be needed anyways. >> >> > >Yes, I think that's true. > > I believe key phrase above (no pun intended) is "if ... needs to carry". Current usage of EAP does not really use key names at this level for anything. My suspicision is that we will only need the names when we go to the more interesting scenarios, like fast handoffs, or application usage of EAP keys. But these are likely to require new AAA support anyway. (Lets not delay Diameter EAP unless we really need to.) --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 18 10:49:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28127 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 10:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A634205FA; Wed, 18 May 2005 10:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4015920483; Wed, 18 May 2005 10:49:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE8020483 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 10:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181662047A for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 10:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.51) id 1DYPqU-0008wz-Pr; Wed, 18 May 2005 10:48:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j4IEmPc09561; Wed, 18 May 2005 07:48:25 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: Jari Arkko Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-Reply-To: <428B4A2D.3020604@piuha.net> Message-ID: References: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> <20050517051423.GE11712@steelhead> <20050518045404.GJ11712@steelhead> <20050518055041.GK11712@steelhead> <428B4A2D.3020604@piuha.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:48:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > (Lets not delay Diameter EAP unless we really need to.) So I take it that you're in favor of keeping a definition of the Key-Name field in the EAP Key management framework? _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From fixcomputer1628@yahoo.com.cn Wed May 18 11:40:08 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03152 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200505181540.LAA03152@ietf.org> Received: from [218.18.30.125] (helo=yahoo.com.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DYQvV-0005eg-PE for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 11:57:44 -0400 From: =?GB2312?B?ye7b2si6waa/xry8?= Subject: =?GB2312?B?v+zL2cnPw8XXqNK1zqzQ3rXnxNQ=?= To: eap-archive@ietf.org Content-Type: text/html;charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:39:22 +0800 X-Priority: 2 X-Mailer: Foxmail 5.0 beta2 [cn] X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-NONENGLISH: Subject contains non-English characters X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ÎÞ±êÌâÎĵµ
 
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We met on numerous occasions prior to any investments being placed. I encouraged him to consider various growth funds with prime ratings. The favored route in my advice to customers is to start by assessing data on 600 traditional stocks and bond managers and alternative investments. Based on my advice, we spun the money around various opportunities and made attractive margins for our first months of operation, the accrued profit and interest stood at this point at over 10 million United States Dollars, this margin was not the full potential of the fund but he desired low risk guaranteed returns on investments. In mid 2001, he asked that the money be liquidated because he needed to make an urgent investment requiring cash payments in Europe. He directed that I liquidate the funds and had it deposited with a firm in Europe. I informed him that our bank would have to make special arrangements to have this done and in order not to circumvent due process, the bank would have to make a 9.5 % deduction from the funds to cater for banking and statutory charges. He complained about the charges but later came around when I explained to him the complexities of the task he was asking of us. Cash movement across borders has become especially strict since the incidents of 9/11. I contacted my affiliate in Europe and had the funds available in main land Europe. I undertook all the processes and made sure I followed his precise instructions to the letter and had the funds deposited in a security consultancy firm, the firm is a specialist private firm that accepts deposits from high net worth individuals and blue chip corporations that handle valuable products or undertake transactions that need immediate access to cash. This small and highly private organization is familiar especially to the highly placed and Well-connected organizations. In line with instructions, the money was deposited. He told me he wanted the money there in anticipation of his arrival from Norway later that week. This was the last communication we had, this transpired around 20th June 2002. In June last year, we got a call from the security firm informing us of the inactivity of that particular portfolio. This was an astounding position as far as I was concerned, given the fact that I managed the private banking sector I was the only one who knew about the deposit, and I could not understand why he had not come forward to claim his deposit. I made futile efforts to locate him I immediately passed the task of locating him to the internal investigations department of our bank. Four days later, information started to trickle in, that he was apparently dead. A person who suited his description was declared dead of a heart attack in Cannes, South of France. We were soon enough able to identify the body and cause of death was confirmed. The bank immediately launched an investigation into possible surviving next of kin to alert about the situation and also to come forward to claim his estate. If you are familiar with private banking affairs, those who patronize our services usually prefer anonymity, but also some levels of detachment from conventional processes. In his bio-data form, he listed no next of kin. In the field of private banking, opening an account with us means no one will know of its existence, accounts are rarely held under a name depositors use numbers and codes to make the accounts anonymous. This bank also gives the choice to depositors of having their mail sent to them or held at the bank itself, ensuring that there are no traces of the account and as I said, rarely do they nominate next of kin. Private banking clients apart from not nominating next of kin also usually in most cases leave wills in our care, in this case; he died in testate. What I wish to relate to you will smack of unethical practice but I want you to understand something. It is only an outsider to the banking world who finds the internal politics of the banking world aberrational. The world of private banking especially is fraught with huge rewards for those who occupy certain offices and oversee certain portfolios. You should have begun by now to put together the general direction of what I propose. There is US$ 8,370,000.00 deposited, I alone have the deposit details and they will release the deposit to no one unless I instruct them to do so. I alone know of the existence of this deposit for as far as the finance firm, the transaction with our deceased customer concluded when I sent the funds to the firm, all outstanding interactions in relation to the file are just customer services and due process. The finance firm has no single idea of what's the history or nature of the deposit. They are simply awaiting instructions to release the deposit to any party that comes forward. This is the situation. This bank has spent great amounts of money trying to track this man's family; they have investigated for months and have found no family. The investigation has come to an end. My proposal,you share similar details to the late fellow I am prepared to place you in a position to instruct the finance firm to release the deposit to you as the closest surviving relation. Upon receipt of the deposit, I am prepared to share the money with you in half and no more. That is: I will simply nominate you as the next of kin and have them release the deposit to you. We share the proceeds 50/50. I would have gone ahead to ask the funds be released to me, but that would have drawn a straight line to me and my involvement in claiming the deposit. But on the other hand, you with a similar name as the original depositor would easily pass as the beneficiary with the rights to claim. I assure you that I could have the deposit released to you in a few days. I will simply inform our bank of the final closing of the file relating to the customer. I will then officially communicate with the finance company and instruct them to release the deposit to you. With these two things: all is done. The alternative would be for us to have the firm direct the funds to another bank with you as accountholder. This way there will be no need for you to think of receiving the money from the firm. We can fine-tune this based on our interactions. I am aware of the consequences of this proposal. I ask that if you find no interest in this project that you should discard this mail. I ask that you do not be vindictive or destructive. If my offer is of no appeal to you, delete this message and forget I ever contacted you. Do not destroy my career because you do not approve of my proposal. You may not know this but people like myself who have made tidy sums out of comparable situations run the whole private banking sector. I am not a criminal and what I do, I do not find against good conscience, this may be hard for you to understand, but the dynamics of my industry dictates that I make this move. Such opportunities only come ones' way once in a lifetime. I cannot let this chance pass me by I hope you understand because for once I found myself in total control and face to face with my destiny. These chances won't pass me by. I ask that you do not destroy my chance, if you will not work with me let me know and let me move on with my life but do not destroy me. I am a family man and this is an opportunity to provide them with new opportunities. There is a reward for this project and it is a task well worth undertaking. I have evaluated the risks and the only risk I have here is from you refusing to work with me and alerting my bank. I am the only one who knows of this situation, good fortune has blessed you with a name that has planted you into the center of relevance in my life. Let's share the blessing. If you give me positive signals, I will initiate this process towards a conclusion. I wish to inform you that should you contact me via official channels; I will deny knowing you and about this project. I repeat, I do not want you contacting me through my official phone lines nor do I want you contacting me through my official email account. Contact me only through this email address (qinwangq@o2.pl) I do not want any direct link between you and me. My official lines are not secure lines as they are periodically monitored to assess our level of customer care in line with our Total Quality Management Policy. Please observe this instruction religiously. Please, again, note I am a family man; I happily married with two kids. I send you this mail not without a measure of fear as to what the consequences might be, but I know within me that nothing ventured is nothing gained and that success and riches never come easy or on a platter of gold. This is the one truth I have learned from my private banking clients. Do not betray my confidence. If we can be of one accord, we should plan a meeting, soon. I await your response. Sincerely, Qin Wang * Este mensaje fue enviado desde http://www.enterate.com.ar/ ____________________________________________________________ * Conectate GRATIS a Internet desde Enterate ! Usuario : enterate@enterate.com.ar Clave : enterate desde Buenos Aires : 4004-8007 desde otras ciudades, consulta en : http://www.enterate.com.ar/InternetGratis.htm From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed May 18 19:27:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05526 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 19:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9AE20631; Wed, 18 May 2005 19:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A41220612; Wed, 18 May 2005 19:27:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D892220612 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 19:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF3D8204BE for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 19:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4INQ8nf021311; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:26:08 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id j4INQ89J004773; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:26:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id JAA04768 ; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:26:08 +0900 Received: from mx2.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4INQ85U021972; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:26:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id j4INQ7rE018577; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:26:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id j4INQ7u6003373; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:26:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead (iVPN01-149.mobile.toshiba.co.jp) by tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.01.13.19.49.p4) with ESMTP id <0IGP00065L2GCG@tsbpo1.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Thu, 19 May 2005 08:26:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1DYXUf-0003sG-00; Wed, 18 May 2005 15:58:25 -0700 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] Key derivation and the principle of equivalence In-reply-to: <428B4A2D.3020604@piuha.net> To: Jari Arkko Cc: Bernard Aboba , Yoshihiro Ohba , eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20050518225820.GP11712@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i References: <428300FE.7080808@piuha.net> <20050517051423.GE11712@steelhead> <20050518045404.GJ11712@steelhead> <20050518055041.GK11712@steelhead> <428B4A2D.3020604@piuha.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:58:20 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 04:59:09PM +0300, Jari Arkko wrote: > Bernard Aboba wrote: > > >>If I understand your comment correctly, even if the key Management > >>framework document defines EAP session-ID (or some other attribute > >>that servers as key versioning), if Diameter EAP needs to carry that > >>attribute, I think the attribute needs to be added in Diameter EAP > >>document and recycling would be needed anyways. > >> > >> > > > >Yes, I think that's true. > > > > > I believe key phrase above (no pun intended) is "if ... > needs to carry". Current usage of EAP does not really > use key names at this level for anything. My suspicision > is that we will only need the names when we go to the > more interesting scenarios, like fast handoffs, or application > usage of EAP keys. But these are likely to require new > AAA support anyway. In the case of Diameter EAP, since Diameter runs over reliable transport, we can probably say that the authenticator can distinguish old and new MSKs received from the EAP server without carrying a key versioning information. AMSK will need key names to be carried because the consumer of AMSK may not be an authenticator, but this will require new AAA support as Jari mentioned above. For the above reasons, I have personally no issue on moving forward the Diameter EAP document if my observation is correct. Yoshihiro Ohba > > (Lets not delay Diameter EAP unless we really need to.) > > --Jari > > > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From rpdyocais@yahoo.com Wed May 18 20:40:08 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA11157; Wed, 18 May 2005 20:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcp0010455483pcs.trnrsv01.nj.comcast.net ([69.137.162.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DYZMA-0007Q5-JE; Wed, 18 May 2005 20:57:48 -0400 Received: from 78.23.152.56 by 69.137.162.113; Thu, 19 May 2005 04:37:11 +0300 Message-ID: From: "Hazel Wagner" Reply-To: "Hazel Wagner" To: eap-archive@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org, edu-team@ietf.org, edu-team-web-archive@ietf.org Subject: executives in the hospital sector, over 6400 hospitals and emails, Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:37:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--810611153356372" X-IP: 202.41.60.176 X-Spam-Score: 9.3 (+++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 ----810611153356372 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NEW.FIRST TIME OFFERED IN THE INDUSTRY. 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Name: Title: Organization: Address: City/State: Zip: Tel: Fax: Email: ----810611153356372-- From UrsulaGunzberg@alr.org.uk Wed May 18 23:37:28 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA23796 for ; Wed, 18 May 2005 23:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [221.143.228.33] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DYc7n-0003IK-7l for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 May 2005 23:55:10 -0400 Received: from fCX@localhost by iMhY.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Thu, 19 May 2005 01:40:42 -0300 Message-ID: From: "Gina Myrick" Reply-To: "Gina Myrick" To: tvvgmisis-wg-admin@ietf.org Cc: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Acrobat Pro 7.0 $69.95 Systemworks Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:36:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: UrsulaGunzberg@alr.org.uk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--0DZshQmtJIaWvmx" X-Spam-Score: 6.0 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 27ec2ff0f5c3b18b49c722f4f1748838 5YtM ----0DZshQmtJIaWvmx Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable K
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---------------------

No future contact:
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Please finalize this final step upon receiving this notice immediately,and complete your submission now.

Finish Here.

If your decision is not to make use of this final offer going here will help you to do so. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_QJLFUGHB.SHHGSCYN-- From reinfer@yebox.com Fri May 20 13:36:13 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA13001; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [68.119.253.163] (helo=68-119-253-163-scp1.ubr1.osgb.mo.charter.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DZBhN-0000MU-Hd; Fri, 20 May 2005 13:54:15 -0400 Received: from corey-jcoppens.com (EHLO creaky.jcoppens.com) by coypu.jcoppens.com with SMTP; Fri, 20 May 2005 22:39:25 +0400 Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 00:37:25 +0600 From: "Hector Welch" To: doyle.crouch@ietf.org Cc: dp@ietf.org, drafts@ietf.org, drums-archive@ietf.org, dvsqhmanet@ietf.org, dxnvmrouting-discussion-admin@ietf.org, e@ietf.org, e3@ietf.org, eamoby@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Lowest rates in 45 years Message-ID: X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: SysLog X-SpamTest-Status: Not detected X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 2.0.0 [526], SpamtestISP/Release X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) X-Spam-Score: 12.0 (++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. You have qualified for the lowest rate in years... You could get over $380,000 for as little as $500 a month! Ba(d credit? Doesn't matter, low rates are fixed no matter what! To get a free, no obli,gation consultation click below: http://www.h1gh3r.com/sign.asp Best Regards, Shelia Hess to be remov(ed: http://www.h1gh3r.com/gone.asp this process takes one week, so please be patient. we do our best to take your email/s off but you have to fill out a rem/ove or else you will continue to recieve email/s. From nssfwfhjwzz@moislain.com Fri May 20 14:55:41 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24860; Fri, 20 May 2005 14:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DZCwI-0003Xz-9e; Fri, 20 May 2005 15:13:43 -0400 Received: from pool-71-112-215-108.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net ([71.112.215.108]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DZCen-0000oL-Rv; Fri, 20 May 2005 14:55:39 -0400 Received: from raoulmccubbe (HELO a2-89.melbpc.org.au [178.72.28.155]) by stricken.melbpc.org.au (5.9.6+Sun/0.9.3) with SMTP id UAA84186; Fri, 20 May 2005 18:53:12 -0100 Message-Id: <943.1@melbpc.org.au> X-Sender: nssfwfhjwzz@moislain.com Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 01:51:12 +0600 From: "Felecia Tracy" To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: second notification Damien In-Reply-To: <3962929.00b0a2650@designs.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Dear Homeowner, You have been pre-approved for a $402,000 Home Loan at 3.45% Fixed Rate. This offer is being extended to you unconditionally and your credit is in no way a factor. To take Advantage of this Limited Time opportunity all we ask is that you visit our Website and complete the 1 minute post Approval Form. http://www.24x7-mortgage.com/2/index/bvk Best Regards, Felecia Tracy Regional CEO text vy romulus hh jeopard ml familial ti minneapolis thu entrepreneurial utj catv kn brazier qlb http://24x7-mortgage.com/rem.php From odhgpqm@thomassen.priv.no Fri May 20 15:22:31 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29193; Fri, 20 May 2005 15:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200505201922.PAA29193@ietf.org> Received: from [200.76.199.199] (helo=ssg2-200-76-199-199.mtyxl.axtel.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DZDLg-0004PC-Qm; Fri, 20 May 2005 15:40:33 -0400 Received: from ZSQDM-VL47 (4.194.87.120) by 200.76.199.199; Fri, 20 May 2005 12:22:45 -0800 From: "Nicholas Hilliard" To: mailserv@ietf.org Subject: Payment N026754550 Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:22:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00DZ_05E9564TE_05M.768K59T0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-message-flag: Authentic Sender, Hash: TtCjZsZf X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 325b777e1a3a618c889460b612a65510 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DZ_05E9564TE_05M.768K59T0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00ER_07K5393OU_01V.585U47L0" ------=_NextPart_000_00ER_07K5393OU_01V.585U47L0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Get a capable html e-mailer ------=_NextPart_000_00ER_07K5393OU_01V.585U47L0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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---------------------

No future contact:
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Processing Form

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---------------------

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    ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C56072.32845A00-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue May 24 13:04:11 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19133 for ; Tue, 24 May 2005 13:04:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB7520505; Tue, 24 May 2005 13:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2DF1204FB; Tue, 24 May 2005 13:04:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48AE4204FB for ; Tue, 24 May 2005 13:03:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F505204F2 for ; Tue, 24 May 2005 13:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AEA88988A for ; Tue, 24 May 2005 20:03:31 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <429305BD.9020804@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eap@frascone.com References: <200505231939.PAA02560@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <200505231939.PAA02560@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-tschofenig-eap-ikev2-06.txt Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:45:17 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > > Title : EAP IKEv2 Method (EAP-IKEv2) > Author(s) : H. 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    isaiahdeathkummer ----624514_37473560.Lh275-- From edcd2@didamail.com Tue May 24 23:28:06 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA21443; Tue, 24 May 2005 23:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DamrE-00054x-4c; Tue, 24 May 2005 23:47:00 -0400 Received: from [210.93.60.21] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DamYk-0005oC-KM; Tue, 24 May 2005 23:27:55 -0400 X-Apparently-To: drums-archive@ietf.org X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from edible.edematous.pochta.ru ([unix socket]) by ideal.murder.pochta.ru (Cyrus v2.2.7) with LMTPA; Wed, 25 May 2005 09:17:09 +0500 Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:22:09 +0600 From: "Malcolm Donaldson" Message-Id: X-Accept-Language: en,zh-TW,zh-CN,zh,ja,ko,tr,ru To: drums-archive@ietf.org Cc: dvsqhmanet@ietf.org, dxnvmrouting-discussion-admin@ietf.org, e@ietf.org, e3@ietf.org, eamoby@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org, ediint-archive@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org, edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org, edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org Subject: Super low mortage rate X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Hello, We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest morta(ge rate. 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Name: Title: Organization: Address: City/State: Zip: Tel: Fax: Email: ----39351940449838609-- From cvyegjkzycl@wettshirts.com Wed May 25 02:14:57 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA18239; Wed, 25 May 2005 02:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200505250614.CAA18239@ietf.org> Received: from sc2-24.217.191.87.charter-stl.com ([24.217.191.87]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DapSf-0002KZ-Ta; Wed, 25 May 2005 02:33:55 -0400 Received: from KPGFL-UD44 (119.128.69.54) by 24.217.191.87; Wed, 25 May 2005 07:14:42 -0000 From: "Kent Keyes" To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: We cannot cancel your payment N826740603792 Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 07:14:42 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00GK_05D4675SR_08T.324M51R0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-message-flag: Authentic Sender, Hash: NiDuKeBq X-Spam-Score: 8.4 (++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 325b777e1a3a618c889460b612a65510 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00GK_05D4675SR_08T.324M51R0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00GU_04I6138JP_02L.440E69J0" ------=_NextPart_000_00GU_04I6138JP_02L.440E69J0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Get a capable html e-mailer ------=_NextPart_000_00GU_04I6138JP_02L.440E69J0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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(Exim 4.33) id 1Dbe3H-0001Dr-Ne for eap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 08:35:01 -0400 From: "Ioannis Cloutier" To: "Alvilda Zimmer" Subject: Re: Viagra Scorres! Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:16:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C562B5.DB6EC700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 7.1 (+++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C562B5.DB6EC700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, The Cinco Llagas it is.was rank with the smell of tar and spun yarn. = Going aft he threwDo you know what ship it is? I will tell you. It = is thetwinkled humourously in his great face.colour in his cheeks = showed the inward struggle by which hethe arm. Come, my lord. We = must take order about this, you and I.well, and indeed his appearance = bore out the deception. Noneas to relieve some of this suffering, he = was accounted importunateLord Julian gasped. After what I've told = you that he has done?Bishop just issuing from the shed. He doffed = his hat and stoodundamaged vessels to resistance, the Spaniards might = well haveOn his right stretched a spacious garden, beyond which rose = thebay of Petit Goave. In that same mood he greeted M. le Baron deI = have not.one of your gallants to whom existence that is not graced = byno pains to dissemble his chagrin at the turn of events and his ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C562B5.DB6EC700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hello, do you want tohim with a question: spend Iess on your = drrugs?
     
    The PHARMACby a group of officers.Y-BY-MAlL = SHOP  offers you a greatHis resurrected pride had demanded that he should put himself = on an deaI
     
    VlAGthe Admiral had = turned to flash a backward glance at his prisoners.RA Vbe taken upon it at once.ALlUM = ClAstorm to spend itself. When at last = this happened, he addressedLlS LHagthorpe's eyes looked a question. But his mind dismissed = whateverEVlTRA and many other.
     
    Whas the = megrims.ith each purchase you get:
  • Great dozen grapnels fell, and tore and = caught in the timbers of thePrices
  • Top quaIiHis lips were twisted into a = wry smile, and there was pain in thety
  • Home de - new worlds, new manners, I = suppose. In time I may conform myIivery
  • TotaYou were acquainted with his = story?l confidentiaIity
    •  
    Try us and you will not be dithat his lordship was as grave as a parson at = a hanging. But Isappointed!
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  • BEST PRlCit may be = said to face south upon the inner of two harbours by = whichES
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    • ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C5661A.C4640800--