From news@fedex.com Tue Nov 01 06:59:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EWuni-0000dm-PG for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 06:59:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA14736 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:59:17 -0500 (EST) From: news@fedex.com Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EWv24-0007KJ-V8 for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 07:14:30 -0500 Received: from yahoobb220036236058.bbtec.net ([220.36.236.58]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EWunb-0007lY-L6 for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 06:59:31 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO scowl) (192.168.190.181) by YahooBB220036236058.bbtec.net with SMTP; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:13:09 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1923312211.12149034793@YahooBB220036236058.bbtec.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: CWTD WallStreet Expectations Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 06:59:31 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OUR OCTOBER HOT PICK IS: CWTD. SYMBOL: CWTD ***See stock rises up Oct 31 Current Share price: $1.71 52 weeks high: $8.50 Rating: Strong BUY Industry: Explosive Detection Devices WallStreet Expectations (1 week): 160% UP WallStreet Expectations (2 months): 340% UP SYMBOL: CWTD CURRENT PRICE: $1.71 5 Day Target: $5 This will be the hottest Issue of November Keep reading to see why About China World Trade Corporation China World Trade Corporation (CWTC) has established its business in three distinct areas: the club and business centers throughout major cities in China, business travel-related services, and business value-added services. The Club and Business Center Division is devoted to the building of the World Trade brand throughout China via the opening and operating of business clubs in China's major, positioning the CWTC to act as a platform to facilitate trade between China and the world markets. The acquisition of CEO Clubs China Limited ("CEO Clubs") in May 2004 further complements CWTC's offerings by targeting high-level corporate executives from premier companies. The Business Traveling Services Division, New Generation, provides CWTC access to the rapidly growing travel-related industry. New Generation is a pioneer and market leader in the travel agency business through its strong network of ticketing sales operations throughout Southern China. The Business Value-Added Services Division focuses on value-added services of credit cards, merchant-related business services, as well as consultancy services to CWTC members and clients. Guangdong World Trade Link Information Services Limited ("WTC Link"), a subsidiary of CWTC, manages the Company's co-branded credit card project and is an active provider of CRM solutions and services in China. Today we are issuing another ALERT on CWTD. But we think the fun is just beginning with this stock. It has been showing a steady move up on increasing volume. It appears to us that the stock is in an accumulation phase and might be ready for a big pop to new highs. Disclaimer: Information within this email contains "forwardlooking statements" within the meaning of Section 27Aof the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be "forward looking statements". "Forward looking statements" are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Forward looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as "projects", "foresee", "expects", "will", "anticipates", "estimates", "believes", "understands" or that by statements indicating certain actions "may", "could", or "might" occur. Risk factors include general economic and business conditions, the ability to acquire and develop specific projects, the ability to fund operations and changes in consumer and business consumption habits and other factors overwhich the company has little or no control. The publisher of this newsletter does not represent that the information contained in this message states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary to make the statements therein not misleading. All information provided within this email pertaining to investing, stocks, securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. The publisher of this newsletter advises all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this email. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in this stock. We urge you to read the company's SEC filings now, before you invest. The publisher of this newsletter is not a registered invstment advisor. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice. In compliance with the SecuritiesAct of 1933, Section 17(b), The publisher of this newsletter is contracted to receive six hundred thousand free trading shares from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate shareholder for the circulation of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid advertisement and is not without bias. The party that paid us has a position in the stock they will sell at anytime without notice. This could have a negative impact on the price of the stock, causing you to lose money. All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to SEC filings, Company Websites and Company Press Releases. The publisher of this newsletter believes this information to be reliable but can make no guarantee as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material within this email constitutes your acceptance of these terms. 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------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C5DEDA.BB81A600-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 12:38:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX05I-0006mX-05 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:38:10 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04153 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:37:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD64620397; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:38:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7222008B for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:37:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Nov 2005 09:37:22 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,275,1125903600"; d="scan'208"; a="359407369:sNHT25794432" Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id jA1HbJ94029280; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:37:20 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: EAP Key Manglement Terminology Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE690626654E@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue: EAP Key Manglement Terminology Thread-Index: AcXcBD6QXKHUFxJgTFyMm9gzAKXHIADBXf7A From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Bernard Aboba" , Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:42:54 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > >"The EAP server also decides whether access to some service=20 > should be=20 > >granted"??? Isn't this the job of AAA server? >=20 > The actual quotation is: >=20 > The EAP server also > stores the peer's identity and/or other information necessary to > decide whether access to some service should be granted. >=20 > So yes, the AAA server makes the decision, but the EAP server=20 > stores the information. > [Joe] This text is a bit vague. Does this section mean the EAP server stores the peer's authenticated identity after the EAP method has executed or are you referring to a more persistent storage of identity? The EAP server is primarily responsible for providing authenticated identity, it may provide additional information authenticated during the EAP transaction, but it certainly is not the only source for additional information about the identity and context of the access.=20 =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 12:51:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX0Hs-00049Y-Gy for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:51:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04748 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:50:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43360204A5; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:51:05 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate7.mot.com (motgate7.mot.com [129.188.136.7]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B67C620397 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:50:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com ([10.64.251.232]) by motgate7.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA1IE0FB003901 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:14:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA1HwPvn014970 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:58:26 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Thread-Index: AcXcAxlyKdQmRrw/Q+isniMry6693wDBZ5qg From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Bernard Aboba" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , Subject: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:50:07 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bernard, I did some more reading in the 08 doc, and I am trying to put all the pieces of the puzzle together.=20 Section 2.2. of EAP keying 08 prohibits sending EMSK down to the lower layer (section 2.2).=20 I assume "lower layer" includes AAA layer (even though 3748 section 2.2. does not include AAA as a lower layer, even though 3579 is dated before 3748).=20 So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys (AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer must itself authorize each service application and calculate any AMSK that are needed for that application. Not only we are including a role of authorization into an EAP server, but also we are saying the EAP layer must anticipate all applications that need to derive their keys based on the EAP keying process. Should not be the AAA server to make authorization decisions and generate keys for the services accordingly (say a master key for an access technology or a master key to provide handover support)? Furthermore in section 2.3 under AAA, a "AAA layer" is mentioned and it says, the AAA layer must delete an MSK that has been transported to the authenticator. Problems:=20 1) The EAP RFC does not distinguish between authenticator and authentication server (the EAP server). 2) The EAP RFC does not specify an MSK transport process. It says that AAA key and MSK are a lot of times the same, but it also says: "This specification does not provide detailed guidance on how EAP methods derive the MSK and EMSK, how the AAA-Key is derived from the MSK and/or EMSK, or how the TSKs are derived from the AAA-Key." It only talks about an optional process of AAA transport "[d] A AAA-Key derived from the MSK and/or EMSK negotiated between the peer and authentication server MAY be transmitted to the authenticator. Therefore, a mechanism needs to be provided to transmit the AAA-Key from the authentication server to the authenticator that needs it. The specification of the AAA-key derivation, transport, and wrapping mechanisms is outside the scope of this document. Further details on AAA-Key Derivation are provided within [KEYFRAME]." So EAP RFC does not really talk about MSK transport. We are now saying MSK and AAA key are the same and then lets pass (MSK instead of AAA-key) to the authenticator (which btw is not recognized in 3748) and then dump MSK both at the EAP server and AAA server. The EMSK does not go down to AAA layer either. So I am really trying to figure out how we can have a practical way of creating AMSKs for applications that EAP layer should really not care about (AAA should deal with that)?=20 It seems that even when we are talking about method independence, algorithm independence and lower layer independence, we are building an application dependence in the EAP layer. Regards, Madjid The definitions are copied from [RFC3748] without modification. Note that [RFC3748] does include the term "export". See Section 1.2:=20 Master Session Key (MSK) Keying material that is derived between the EAP peer and server and exported by the EAP method. The MSK is at least 64 octets in length. In existing implementations, a AAA server acting as an EAP server transports the MSK to the authenticator. Extended Master Session Key (EMSK) Additional keying material derived between the EAP client and server that is exported by the EAP method. The EMSK is at least 64 octets in length. The EMSK is not shared with the authenticator or any other third party. The EMSK is reserved for future uses that are not defined yet. Given the above definition, the lower layer does not "create" the AAA-Key; it is passed down to it from the EAP Method. There has been some discussion as to whether the lower layer "creates" AMSKs after receiving the EMSK from the EAP layer, or whether the EAP layer keeps the EMSK secret from the lower layer and calculates AMSKs from the EMSK based on a request from the lower layer _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 12:54:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX0Ko-0007ko-3s for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:54:10 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04933 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:53:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6264920576; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:54:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C98820397 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Nov 2005 09:53:04 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,275,1125903600"; d="scan'208"; a="359416253:sNHT26655004" Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id jA1Hr1Jh012608; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:53:02 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE690626655A@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server Thread-Index: AcXcAxlyKdQmRrw/Q+isniMry6693wCMlbagADVoEKA= From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" , "Bernard Aboba" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:58:35 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Madjid, Comments below.=20 >=20 > > ***PMK definition should be generic. >=20 > The term "PMK" was originally defined in IEEE 802.11 and is=20 > not used in [RFC3748]. Given this, I'm not clear that it=20 > would be appropriate to redefine it in this document. As far=20 > as I can tell, everywhere the term "PMK" is used in both IEEE=20 > 802.11 and 802.16, it is equivalent to MSK(0,31).=20 >=20 > Madjid>> 802.16 D10 has already graduated to at least two PMKs: >=20 > 1) EIK | PMK =3Dtruncate (MSK, 320) > 2) PMK2=3D truncate (MSK, 160) >=20 > So I think a more generic definition of PMK is apt, that is=20 > IF a definition of PMK would really add value to this draft=20 > (rather than creating confusion). I personally think, if AMSK=20 > went to the extension draft, so should PMK. > [Joe] The derivation and use of the PMK is defined in the lower layer. It is possible to use the MSK without defining a PMK. The AMSK is somewhat different. It should not be possible to use the EMSK directly, but only use AMSKs derived from it.=20 =20 > > ***TEK and TSK both use the word "session keys" as the start of the=20 > > definition, whereas the mean completely different "session" (if you=20 > > will). >=20 > It would probably help to make it clear that TEKs relate to=20 > the EAP conversation and TSKs relate to data. I think that=20 > this may have been described in some of the material that was=20 > removed.=20 >=20 > Madjid>>The draft does have a "session ID" for EAP, so why not use it > when providing clarification? >=20 > > Given that EAP methods produce MSK and EMSK and export=20 > (presumably to=20 > > the AAA server), it is probably the AAA server that creates the=20 > > AAA-key out of the MSK and send it over? Specially given=20 > that we say=20 > > EAP server dumps the MSK after export? Does it dump the MSK=20 > and keep=20 > > the AAA key then? Do we want to leave this to interpretation? >=20 > In -08 the term "AAA-Key" is used only once, within the definition. =20 > Several commenters had felt that the term was confusing, so=20 > that it has been removed. Perhaps it might be clearer if the=20 > following definition were used instead: >=20 > AAA-Key > The term "AAA-Key" is synonymous with MSK. =20 >=20 > Given the above definition, the lower layer does not "create"=20 > the AAA-Key; it is passed down to it from the EAP Method. =20 > There has been some discussion as to whether the lower layer=20 > "creates" AMSKs after receiving the EMSK from the EAP layer,=20 > or whether the EAP layer keeps the EMSK secret from the lower=20 > layer and calculates AMSKs from the EMSK based on a request=20 > from the lower layer.=20 >=20 > Madjid>>Given that the concept of AMSK seems so powerful and easy to > grasp, but I am not clear why it has to be created from EMSK,=20 > not MSK (can the lower layer cache the AMSK?) My personal=20 > confusion aside, it feels that AAA-key is here only for=20 > historical reason. Once you are completed the daunting task=20 > (may be a timely thing given that this is Oct 30 :) ) of=20 > understanding the key hierarchy of an EAP method and then SAP=20 > and all that, you then have to try to justify why another key=20 > that is btw synonymous with MSK is needed? And BTW what does=20 > "synonymous" mean with respective to RFC 2119?? Is every MUST=20 > for MSK, a MUST for AAA-key, and so forth?? >=20 [Joe] The choice of AAA-Key term in the EAP RFC was unfortunate, it think it would have been better if we stuck just with the MSK. Existing lower layers already use the MSK directly so I don't think defining AMSKs derived from this quantity is appropriate in this document. I think it does make plenty of sense to define a key hierarchy in documents specifying lower layers. In order to allow multiple keys to be derived independently for different purposes from EAP coordination key derivation is required. This is the purpose of the EMSK and AMSK hierarchy.=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 13:13:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX0dD-0000hn-60 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:13:11 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05723 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:12:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB5E20577; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:13:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631842008B for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Nov 2005 10:12:51 -0800 Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id jA1ICmbA008094; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:12:48 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE690626656E@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Thread-Index: AcXcAxlyKdQmRrw/Q+isniMry6693wDBZ5qgAAEsRVA= From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" , "Bernard Aboba" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:18:22 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:50 AM > To: Bernard Aboba > Cc: Jari Arkko; eap@frascone.com > Subject: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation >=20 >=20 > Hi Bernard, >=20 > I did some more reading in the 08 doc, and I am trying to put=20 > all the pieces of the puzzle together.=20 >=20 > Section 2.2. of EAP keying 08 prohibits sending EMSK down to=20 > the lower layer (section 2.2).=20 >=20 > I assume "lower layer" includes AAA layer (even though 3748=20 > section 2.2. > does not include AAA as a lower layer, even though 3579 is=20 > dated before 3748).=20 [Joe] In my opinion AAA is not an EAP lower layer. The EAP lower layer is in direct communication with the authenticator.=20 > So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys > (AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP=20 > layer must itself authorize each service application and=20 > calculate any AMSK that are needed for that application.=20 [Joe] What is important is that the EMSK be contained. It MUST NOT be passed down directly to the lower layer. It should be maintained as close to the EAP Server as possible. Personally I think another entity should be defined that manages this derivation. Controlling access to keys requires authorization (although not necessarily service authorization). > Not=20 > only we are including a role of authorization into an EAP=20 > server, but also we are saying the EAP layer must anticipate=20 > all applications that need to derive their keys based on the=20 > EAP keying process.=20 [Joe] From a security point of view it would be best if the AMSK were derived from the EMSK as soon as possible so the EMSK can be deleted. So I think that the possible need for AMSKs should be anticipated.=20 > Should not be the AAA server to make=20 > authorization decisions and generate keys for the services=20 > accordingly (say a master key for an access technology or a=20 > master key to provide handover support)? >=20 [Joe] Yes the AAA server should, however it is also possible to use EAP without AAA so we have to be careful with terminology.=20 > Furthermore in section 2.3 under AAA, a "AAA layer" is=20 > mentioned and it says, the AAA layer must delete an MSK that=20 > has been transported to the authenticator. Problems:=20 > 1) The EAP RFC does not distinguish between authenticator and=20 > authentication server (the EAP server). [Joe] This is OK the EAP Authenticator and EAP Server can be viewed as part of the same logical entity with repsec to the lower layer. It probably should say that once the key is delivered to the lower layer it should be deleted from the EAP Authenticator and EAP server. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 13:19:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX0j0-0002ws-GK for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:19:10 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06016 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528EC20577; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:19:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 540E620397 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:18:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr01.mot.com ([10.64.251.231]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA1IUZmR003777 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:30:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA1IVDQj021237 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:31:14 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server Thread-Index: AcXcAxlyKdQmRrw/Q+isniMry6693wCMlbagADVoEKAAANjrYA== From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Salowey, Joe" , "Bernard Aboba" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , , "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:17:47 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joe, Thank you for your email. On your comment on PMK, you are providing a better rephrasing of my argument. I think following a generic and _only informational_ definition of PMK (a pair wise master key to be shared between the peer and the pass-through authenticator), it should state " The derivation and use of the PMK is defined in the lower layer" (your sentence) and is out of scope of this document. I also agree that it is possible (according to the current spec) for the lower layer to use MSK for security association protocol without creating PMK, but I don't know why we are mandating for the AAA layer (at least AAA server) to delete MSK (section 2.3) after forwarding it to the passthrough authenticator. The spec has nothing on AMSK. AMSK is now in the extension draft and is calculated based EMSK, even though this draft states that EMSK cannot be used to derive other keys.... =20 "The EMSK is reserved for future use and MUST remain on the EAP peer and EAP server where it is derived; it MUST NOT be transported to, or shared with, additional parties, or used to derive any other keys." On your comment on AAA-key, I think we need be rid of AAA-key in this draft or define a precise relation between AAA-key and MSK. EAP RFC talked about AAA-key transport, we are talking about MSK transport here based on the fact that AAA-key and MSK are the same in existing implementation (I think it is ok for an informational draft to talk about existing implementations, but not for a standards track document). As far as AMSK, I am ok with not including AMSK here (I guess:) ), but I don't agree with this document providing conflicting guidelines with extension draft.=20 By not sending EMSK down and asking to delete MSK after transport, we are tying the architects hands from creating new AMSK use cases or having other documents creating key hierarchies feeding off EAP keys.. Madjid -----Original Message----- From: Salowey, Joe [mailto:jsalowey@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 11:59 AM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; Bernard Aboba Cc: Jari Arkko; eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server Hi Madjid, Comments below.=20 >=20 > > ***PMK definition should be generic. >=20 > The term "PMK" was originally defined in IEEE 802.11 and is not used=20 > in [RFC3748]. Given this, I'm not clear that it would be appropriate=20 > to redefine it in this document. As far as I can tell, everywhere the > term "PMK" is used in both IEEE > 802.11 and 802.16, it is equivalent to MSK(0,31).=20 >=20 > Madjid>> 802.16 D10 has already graduated to at least two PMKs: >=20 > 1) EIK | PMK =3Dtruncate (MSK, 320) > 2) PMK2=3D truncate (MSK, 160) >=20 > So I think a more generic definition of PMK is apt, that is IF a=20 > definition of PMK would really add value to this draft (rather than=20 > creating confusion). I personally think, if AMSK went to the extension > draft, so should PMK. > [Joe] The derivation and use of the PMK is defined in the lower layer. It is possible to use the MSK without defining a PMK. The AMSK is somewhat different. It should not be possible to use the EMSK directly, but only use AMSKs derived from it.=20 =20 > > ***TEK and TSK both use the word "session keys" as the start of the=20 > > definition, whereas the mean completely different "session" (if you=20 > > will). >=20 > It would probably help to make it clear that TEKs relate to the EAP=20 > conversation and TSKs relate to data. I think that this may have been > described in some of the material that was removed. >=20 > Madjid>>The draft does have a "session ID" for EAP, so why not use it > when providing clarification? >=20 > > Given that EAP methods produce MSK and EMSK and export > (presumably to > > the AAA server), it is probably the AAA server that creates the=20 > > AAA-key out of the MSK and send it over? Specially given > that we say > > EAP server dumps the MSK after export? Does it dump the MSK > and keep > > the AAA key then? Do we want to leave this to interpretation? >=20 > In -08 the term "AAA-Key" is used only once, within the definition. =20 > Several commenters had felt that the term was confusing, so that it=20 > has been removed. Perhaps it might be clearer if the following=20 > definition were used instead: >=20 > AAA-Key > The term "AAA-Key" is synonymous with MSK. =20 >=20 > Given the above definition, the lower layer does not "create"=20 > the AAA-Key; it is passed down to it from the EAP Method. =20 > There has been some discussion as to whether the lower layer "creates" > AMSKs after receiving the EMSK from the EAP layer, or whether the EAP=20 > layer keeps the EMSK secret from the lower layer and calculates AMSKs=20 > from the EMSK based on a request from the lower layer. >=20 > Madjid>>Given that the concept of AMSK seems so powerful and easy to > grasp, but I am not clear why it has to be created from EMSK, not MSK=20 > (can the lower layer cache the AMSK?) My personal confusion aside, it=20 > feels that AAA-key is here only for historical reason. Once you are=20 > completed the daunting task (may be a timely thing given that this is=20 > Oct 30 :) ) of understanding the key hierarchy of an EAP method and=20 > then SAP and all that, you then have to try to justify why another key > that is btw synonymous with MSK is needed? And BTW what does=20 > "synonymous" mean with respective to RFC 2119?? Is every MUST for MSK, > a MUST for AAA-key, and so forth?? >=20 [Joe] The choice of AAA-Key term in the EAP RFC was unfortunate, it think it would have been better if we stuck just with the MSK. Existing lower layers already use the MSK directly so I don't think defining AMSKs derived from this quantity is appropriate in this document. I think it does make plenty of sense to define a key hierarchy in documents specifying lower layers. In order to allow multiple keys to be derived independently for different purposes from EAP coordination key derivation is required. This is the purpose of the EMSK and AMSK hierarchy.=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 13:21:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX0kt-0005aD-BU for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:21:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA06137 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:20:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6906204A5; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:21:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f24.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.34]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957B520397 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:20:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:20:15 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 18:20:13 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.182.139.247] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Bernard Aboba" To: Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com, aboba@internaut.com Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net, eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Nov 2005 18:20:15.0548 (UTC) FILETIME=[E80BB7C0:01C5DF10] Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:20:13 -0800 >Section 2.2. of EAP keying 08 prohibits sending EMSK down to the lower >layer (section 2.2). Right. This restriction was added in response to a comment which pointed out that sending the EMSK to the lower layer violated the principle of Mode Independence, since this would mean that the authenticator lower layer could obtain the EMSK in "stand alone" mode, but not in "pass-through" mode (since the EMSK cannot be transported). >I assume "lower layer" includes AAA layer (even though 3748 section 2.2. >does not include AAA as a lower layer, even though 3579 is dated before >3748). RFC 3748, Figure 2 includes a diagram in which AAA operates as an EAP lower layer. >So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys >(AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer must >itself authorize each service application and calculate any AMSK that >are needed for that application. The implication is that the EAP layer is creating AMSKs in response to requests from lower layers (including AAA). Also note that the EAP layer is transforming the Method-ID into a Session-ID. So the document is outlining a role for the EAP layer as something of a "security policeman", something which is not described in RFC 3748. However, I don't think this necessarily extends to adding authorization to the EAP layer. My understanding was the the EAP layer does not examine the AMSK request, it just honors it. >Not only we are including a role of >authorization into an EAP server, but also we are saying the EAP layer >must anticipate all applications that need to derive their keys based on >the EAP keying process. Should not be the AAA server to make >authorization decisions and generate keys for the services accordingly >(say a master key for an access technology or a master key to provide >handover support)? Well, that is what the document had said prior to the change being applied in response to the comment. In some ways leaving AMSK generation to the lower layer is cleaner, because it does not add functionality to the EAP layer, which is typically just thought of as a "switch" in RFC 3748 and RFC 4317. However, there is the issue that this violates "Mode Independence". >Furthermore in section 2.3 under AAA, a "AAA layer" is mentioned and it >says, the AAA layer must delete an MSK that has been transported to the >authenticator. The requirement is actually that *any* transported key be deleted. This would apply to more than just the MSK -- if an AMSK were transported, it also would need to be deleted. This is required in order to fulfill the basic security goal, which is that the TSKs are known only to the EAP peer and authenticator. If transported keys are left on the AAA server, then the AAA server also has knowledge of the TSKs. Problems: >1) The EAP RFC does not distinguish between authenticator and >authentication server (the EAP server). The way to read this is that the document is specifying the behavior of the AAA layer with respect to key handling. This is not inherently a violation of the principle of "Mode Independence". For example, it is not incompatible to say that existing AAA servers don't cache keys while reviewing key caching behavior of IEEE 802.11i. >So EAP RFC does not really talk about MSK transport. We are now saying MSK >and AAA key are >the same In RFC 4072 (an IETF Proposed Standard) the keying attribute is called "EAP-Master-Session-Key" rather than "AAA-Key" This choice (which I think was quite wise) was made in order to make sure it is very clear what key is being referred to. Going forward, there may be more than one key involved (MSK, AMSKs, etc.), so that talking about a "AAA-Key" is very problematic. If it is necessary to transport AMSKs, it is probably best if a specific attribute is created for this purpose (e.g. EAP-Application-Master-Session-Key), so as to be able to distinguish different kinds of keys and keep confusion to a minimum. >to the authenticator (which btw is not recognized in 3748) The term "authenticator" is both defined and used in RFC 3748. >EAP layer should really not care about (AAA should deal with that)? >It seems that even when we are talking about method independence, >algorithm independence and lower layer independence, we are building an >application dependence in the EAP layer. It would indeed be unfortunate to create an "application dependence" in the EAP layer. However, I'm not sure that AMSK proposal does that, necessarily. If all the EAP layer does it take parameters from the lower layer to create AMSKs, and then unconditionally carry out the lower layer's instructions, then I think the mechanism could be quite general. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 13:52:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX1Ey-0005vS-5l for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:52:15 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA07765 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:51:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D05E0204A5; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:52:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing2.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7975820371 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:51:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (unknown [192.168.9.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 65251180030B for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:51:43 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (205.158.62.152) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 1 Nov 2005 18:51:43 -0000 Received: by ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0EC5E4F67E; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:51:43 +0000 (GMT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "David Mitton" To: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server Received: from [216.162.240.130] by ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com with http for david@mitton.com; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:51:42 -0500 X-Originating-Ip: 216.162.240.130 X-Originating-Server: ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20051101185143.0EC5E4F67E@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:51:42 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While we're at it.... Where is the term "AMSK" defined? Dave. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" , "Bernard Abo= ba" Subject: RE: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:58:35 -0800 >=20 > Hi Madjid, >=20 > Comments below. >=20 > > > > > ***PMK definition should be generic. > > > > The term "PMK" was originally defined in IEEE 802.11 and is not used in= =20 > > [RFC3748]. Given this, I'm not clear that it would be appropriate to= =20 > > redefine it in this document. As far as I can tell, everywhere the ter= m=20 > > "PMK" is used in both IEEE 802.11 and 802.16, it is equivalent to MSK(0= ,31).=20 > > Madjid>> 802.16 D10 has already graduated to at least two PMKs: > > > > 1) EIK | PMK =3Dtruncate (MSK, 320) > > 2) PMK2=3D truncate (MSK, 160) > > > > So I think a more generic definition of PMK is apt, that is IF a defini= tion=20 > > of PMK would really add value to this draft (rather than creating=20 > > confusion). I personally think, if AMSK went to the extension draft, so= =20 > > should PMK. > > > [Joe] The derivation and use of the PMK is defined in the lower layer. > It is possible to use the MSK without defining a PMK. The AMSK is > somewhat different. It should not be possible to use the EMSK directly, > but only use AMSKs derived from it. >=20 >=20 > > > ***TEK and TSK both use the word "session keys" as the start of the >= =20 > > definition, whereas the mean completely different "session" (if you > w= ill). > > > > It would probably help to make it clear that TEKs relate to the EAP=20 > > conversation and TSKs relate to data. I think that this may have been= =20 > > described in some of the material that was removed. Madjid>>The draft d= oes=20 > > have a "session ID" for EAP, so why not use it > > when providing clarification? > > > > > Given that EAP methods produce MSK and EMSK and export (presumably to= >=20 > > the AAA server), it is probably the AAA server that creates the > AAA-k= ey=20 > > out of the MSK and send it over? Specially given that we say > EAP serv= er=20 > > dumps the MSK after export? Does it dump the MSK and keep > the AAA key= =20 > > then? Do we want to leave this to interpretation? > > > > In -08 the term "AAA-Key" is used only once, within the definition. Se= veral=20 > > commenters had felt that the term was confusing, so that it has been=20 > > removed. Perhaps it might be clearer if the following definition were = used=20 > > instead: > > > > AAA-Key > > The term "AAA-Key" is synonymous with MSK. Given the above defini= tion,=20 > > the lower layer does not "create" the AAA-Key; it is passed down to it = from=20 > > the EAP Method. There has been some discussion as to whether the lower= =20 > > layer "creates" AMSKs after receiving the EMSK from the EAP layer, or= =20 > > whether the EAP layer keeps the EMSK secret from the lower layer and=20 > > calculates AMSKs from the EMSK based on a request from the lower layer.= =20 > > Madjid>>Given that the concept of AMSK seems so powerful and easy to > > grasp, but I am not clear why it has to be created from EMSK, not MSK (= can=20 > > the lower layer cache the AMSK?) My personal confusion aside, it feels = that=20 > > AAA-key is here only for historical reason. Once you are completed the= =20 > > daunting task (may be a timely thing given that this is Oct 30 :) ) of= =20 > > understanding the key hierarchy of an EAP method and then SAP and all t= hat,=20 > > you then have to try to justify why another key that is btw synonymous = with=20 > > MSK is needed? And BTW what does "synonymous" mean with respective to R= FC=20 > > 2119?? Is every MUST for MSK, a MUST for AAA-key, and so forth?? > > >=20 > [Joe] The choice of AAA-Key term in the EAP RFC was unfortunate, it > think it would have been better if we stuck just with the MSK. Existing > lower layers already use the MSK directly so I don't think defining > AMSKs derived from this quantity is appropriate in this document. I > think it does make plenty of sense to define a key hierarchy in > documents specifying lower layers. In order to allow multiple keys to > be derived independently for different purposes from EAP coordination > key derivation is required. This is the purpose of the EMSK and AMSK > hierarchy. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 13:56:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX1In-0000Fq-CC for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:56:09 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA07932 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E8F20585; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:56:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f34.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.44]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BAC520371 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:55:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:55:58 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 18:55:57 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.182.139.247] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Bernard Aboba" To: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com, Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com, aboba@internaut.com Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net, eap@frascone.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Nov 2005 18:55:58.0057 (UTC) FILETIME=[E514A590:01C5DF15] Subject: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:55:57 -0800 I would like to point out one other consequence of preventing lower layers (including AAA) from accessing the EMSK. It appears to me that this severely restricts implementation of a key cache on the AAA server. 1. We've talked about deletion of transported keys from the AAA server. So if an MSK (or AMSK) is calculated within the AAA layer and subsequently transported, that key is destroyed and cannot be cached. 2. We've talked about how the EMSK cannot be passed down to the lower layer (including AAA). Therefore the EMSK also cannot be cached by the AAA layer. 3. Given 1) and 2) what keys *can* be cached in the AAA layer? Limited answers appear to be available. Caching of MSKs does not make much sense, even if they are not transported in a particular application, because some applications *do* transport MSKs. It would be possible for the AAA layer to request more than one AMSK, then cache the AMSKs that are not transported. However, this approach does not appear to enable implementation of schemes such as "Key Request" and "Pre-emptive Key Distribution", both of which appear to require the AAA layer to calculate AMSKs *on demand*. To be able to do this, it would seem like the AAA server would need to have access to the EMSK -- since the EAP layer doesn't cache EMSKs, how else could AMSKs be calculated once EAP authentication completes? In the case of roaming systems it is not feasible to ask the EAP layer to calculate every conceivable AMSK that could be useful -- there could be thousands of them. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 14:19:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX1f2-0003r7-57 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:19:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09016 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:18:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D932205B9; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:19:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2411220371 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Nov 2005 11:17:46 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,276,1125903600"; d="scan'208"; a="670980160:sNHT895884604" Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id jA1JHgJh019092; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:17:42 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69062F5463@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXfFsCQTbDY+5scTRaWkimAgfbI7QAADXkQ From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Bernard Aboba" , , Cc: , Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:23:16 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:bernard_aboba@hotmail.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 10:56 AM > To: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com; Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com;=20 > aboba@internaut.com > Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net; eap@frascone.com > Subject: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? >=20 > I would like to point out one other consequence of preventing=20 > lower layers (including AAA) from accessing the EMSK. It=20 > appears to me that this severely restricts implementation of=20 > a key cache on the AAA server. >=20 > 1. We've talked about deletion of transported keys from the=20 > AAA server. So if an MSK (or AMSK) is calculated within the=20 > AAA layer and subsequently transported, that key is destroyed=20 > and cannot be cached. >=20 [Joe] I don't think we have said that the AMSK must be deleted or cannot be cached. It should be the contrary, the AMSK is a quantity that an application such as AAA can use for the purpose it has defined.=20 > 2. We've talked about how the EMSK cannot be passed down to=20 > the lower layer (including AAA). Therefore the EMSK also=20 > cannot be cached by the AAA layer. [Joe] I'm not sure that we agree on AAA as a lower layer. But I have separate reservations about the caching=20 >=20 > 3. Given 1) and 2) what keys *can* be cached in the AAA=20 > layer? Limited answers appear to be available. Caching of=20 > MSKs does not make much sense, even if they are not=20 > transported in a particular application, because some=20 > applications *do* transport MSKs. >=20 > It would be possible for the AAA layer to request more than=20 > one AMSK, then cache the AMSKs that are not transported. >=20 > However, this approach does not appear to enable=20 > implementation of schemes such as "Key Request" and=20 > "Pre-emptive Key Distribution", both of which appear to=20 > require the AAA layer to calculate AMSKs *on demand*. >=20 [Joe] This depends on how you define your key hierarchy. If you derive your keys directly from the EMSK you have a problem. If you define your keys from an AMSK derive for the purpose of pre-emptive key distribution then things work out a bit better.=20 > To be able to do this, it would seem like the AAA server=20 > would need to have access to the EMSK -- since the EAP layer=20 > doesn't cache EMSKs, how else could AMSKs be calculated once=20 > EAP authentication completes? In the case of roaming systems=20 > it is not feasible to ask the EAP layer to calculate every=20 > conceivable AMSK that could be useful -- there could be=20 > thousands of them. >=20 [Joe] An AMSK is an application specific master key. Typically there are a few applications for key material that will be invoked for a particular EAP transaction. For example you might have L2 ciphering, preemptive hand-off and Joe's service activation. Each of these would get their own AMSKs, in addition my assumptions is that in many cases you know if you have the capability or the desire to perform these services so it is possible to derive these AMSKs at the same time. These AMSK's may be cached by entities that will then use them derive thousands of keys for ciphering, hand-off, buying auto-parts, etc. =20 Are there cases where we really have 1000's of different applications or where the application is not known ahead of time. If this turns out to be the case then AAA may need to have access to a KDF that has access to the EMSK.=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 14:21:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX1h8-0004bh-KM for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:21:18 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09122 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D9D205C6; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:21:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f6.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.16]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B8120371 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:20:36 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:20:35 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.182.139.247] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <20051101185143.0EC5E4F67E@ws6-5.us4.outblaze.com> From: "Bernard Aboba" To: david@mitton.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Nov 2005 19:20:36.0353 (UTC) FILETIME=[5636B710:01C5DF19] Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 11:20:35 -0800 >1) EIK | PMK =truncate (MSK, 320) >2) PMK2= truncate (MSK, 160) Both of these definitions imply that the PMK is a truncated version of the MSK. Perhaps we can just point that out, and reference 802.11 and 802.16e. There really is not much need to say anything more than that. >[Joe] The choice of AAA-Key term in the EAP RFC was unfortunate, it >think it would have been better if we stuck just with the MSK. Yes. The term "AAA-Key" has been the source of much confusion. It took quite a while, but at this point, the term is only used once in the EAP Keying Framework (in the terminology seciton). >Existing lower layers already use the MSK directly so I don't think >defining >AMSKs derived from this quantity is appropriate in this document. Right. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 14:32:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX1rg-0002jo-2l for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:32:12 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09667 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F5702049B; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:32:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f24.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.34]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8463020371 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 11:31:39 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:31:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.182.139.247] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69062F5463@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> From: "Bernard Aboba" To: jsalowey@cisco.com, Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com, aboba@internaut.com Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net, eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Nov 2005 19:31:39.0235 (UTC) FILETIME=[E1527B30:01C5DF1A] Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 11:31:38 -0800 >[Joe] I don't think we have said that the AMSK must be deleted or cannot >be cached. It should be the contrary, the AMSK is a quantity that an >application such as AAA can use for the purpose it has defined. Keys can't simultaneously be transported and cached. So either a given AMSK is cached, or it is transported, not both. Otherwise you end up with multiple parties in possession of the TSKs -- which violates one of the fundamental security goals. This doesn't really seem like a big deal though, since a lower layer can request multiple AMSKs. If it needs an AMSK for caching, it can ask for that, in addition to a separate AMSK that is transported. >[Joe] I'm not sure that we agree on AAA as a lower layer. But I have >separate reservations about the caching Can you describe your reservations? In looking at AAA server caching, it seems to me like it could open up a lot of new security vulnerabilities, some of which we may not be able to anticipate. For example, if a key exists in a AAA server cache, does the EAP peer know where that key is, and how to reference it? If the EAP method doesn't export a Server-ID, I think the answer to this question is "no". >[Joe] This depends on how you define your key hierarchy. If you derive >your keys directly from the EMSK you have a problem. If you define your >keys from an AMSK derived for the purpose of pre-emptive key distribution >then things work out a bit better. Right. For example, the "Pre-emptive Keying" proposal could be rewritten to cache an AMSK and derive keys from that, rather than from the EMSK. >[Joe] An AMSK is an application specific master key. Typically there >are a few applications for key material that will be invoked for a >particular EAP transaction. For example you might have L2 ciphering, >preemptive hand-off and Joe's service activation. Each of these would >get their own AMSKs, in addition my assumptions is that in many cases >you know if you have the capability or the desire to perform these >services so it is possible to derive these AMSKs at the same time. All these services exist within a single lower layer, right? Presumably the lower layer knows that it will need these AMSKs, so it can ask the EAP layer for them. >These AMSK's may be cached by entities that will then use them derive >thousands of keys for ciphering, hand-off, buying auto-parts, etc. Right. The lower layer gets to define the appropriate caching behavior. >Are there cases where we really have 1000's of different applications or >where the application is not known ahead of time. If this turns out to >be the case then AAA may need to have access to a KDF that has access to >the EMSK. I think you've proposed a solution to this -- caching of an AMSK from which "on demand" keys can be derived. If things are done this way, then the lower layer does not require access to the EMSK. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 15:13:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX2VG-0000n9-Rx for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:13:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA11876 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F3042049B; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:13:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FF6120371 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Nov 2005 12:12:05 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,276,1125903600"; d="scan'208"; a="671004474:sNHT29363024" Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id jA1KC2VR028800; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:12:02 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69062F54A3@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXfG8iN6C3HV9bmRZu3Qjv3g35ctgAANFZA From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Bernard Aboba" , , Cc: , Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:17:36 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:bernard_aboba@hotmail.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 11:32 AM > To: Salowey, Joe; Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com; aboba@internaut.com > Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net; eap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? >=20 > >[Joe] I don't think we have said that the AMSK must be deleted or=20 > >cannot be cached. It should be the contrary, the AMSK is a quantity=20 > >that an application such as AAA can use for the purpose it=20 > has defined. >=20 > Keys can't simultaneously be transported and cached. So=20 > either a given AMSK is cached, or it is transported, not=20 > both. Otherwise you end up with multiple parties in=20 > possession of the TSKs -- which violates one of the=20 > fundamental security goals. >=20 > This doesn't really seem like a big deal though, since a=20 > lower layer can request multiple AMSKs. If it needs an AMSK=20 > for caching, it can ask for that, in addition to a separate=20 > AMSK that is transported. >=20 [Joe] The applications define how they use AMSKs. They could define two different AMSKs for caching and transport if that was what was required. There are lots of ways an application can misuse keys. The purpose of the AMSK is to keep one applications misuse of keys from harming another.=20 > >[Joe] I'm not sure that we agree on AAA as a lower layer. But I have=20 > >separate reservations about the caching >=20 > Can you describe your reservations? In looking at AAA server=20 > caching, it seems to me like it could open up a lot of new=20 > security vulnerabilities, some of which we may not be able to=20 > anticipate. >=20 [Joe] Mostly I have reservations about caching the EMSK. The EMSK is the root of a hierarchy and if you can obtain that then all uses derived from it are compromised. Therefore it would be good to destroy it as soon as possible. AMSKs should be cryptographically independent and it should not be computationally feasible to get the EMSK from and AMSK. =20 > For example, if a key exists in a AAA server cache, does the=20 > EAP peer know where that key is, and how to reference it? If=20 > the EAP method doesn't export a Server-ID, I think the answer=20 > to this question is "no". >=20 [Joe] Some of this needs to be defined in the application usage of the AMSK. It is an interesting question as to what information an application needs to reference a key. I'm not sure we have discussed a good answer for this yet. =20 > >[Joe] This depends on how you define your key hierarchy. If=20 > you derive=20 > >your keys directly from the EMSK you have a problem. If you define=20 > >your keys from an AMSK derived for the purpose of pre-emptive key=20 > >distribution then things work out a bit better. >=20 > Right. For example, the "Pre-emptive Keying" proposal could=20 > be rewritten to cache an AMSK and derive keys from that,=20 > rather than from the EMSK. >=20 > >[Joe] An AMSK is an application specific master key. =20 > Typically there=20 > >are a few applications for key material that will be invoked for a=20 > >particular EAP transaction. For example you might have L2=20 > ciphering,=20 > >preemptive hand-off and Joe's service activation. Each of=20 > these would=20 > >get their own AMSKs, in addition my assumptions is that in=20 > many cases=20 > >you know if you have the capability or the desire to perform these=20 > >services so it is possible to derive these AMSKs at the same time. >=20 > All these services exist within a single lower layer, right? =20 > Presumably the lower layer knows that it will need these=20 > AMSKs, so it can ask the EAP layer for them. >=20 [Joe] These are all different applications that in general don't know about one another, however the entity that is requesting the authentication (EAP Authenticator system) has an idea of what applications will be used. It could potentially deliver keys to multiple different applications/lower layers if necessary. The lower layer may be intimately involved in some aspects such as ciphering, but for others it may have no knowledge. There could be multiple lower layers or enhanced services provided by a lower layer that operate independently. =20 It could also be possible for applications to be initiated independent of the lower layer that the authenticator is unaware of. This would probably require some configuration of this applications within the backend and the client. It could also be possible to negotiate these between EAP peer and EAP server.=20 > >These AMSK's may be cached by entities that will then use=20 > them derive=20 > >thousands of keys for ciphering, hand-off, buying auto-parts, etc. >=20 > Right. The lower layer gets to define the appropriate=20 > caching behavior. >=20 > >Are there cases where we really have 1000's of different=20 > applications=20 > >or where the application is not known ahead of time. If=20 > this turns out=20 > >to be the case then AAA may need to have access to a KDF that has=20 > >access to the EMSK. >=20 > I think you've proposed a solution to this -- caching of an=20 > AMSK from which "on demand" keys can be derived. If things=20 > are done this way, then the lower layer does not require=20 > access to the EMSK. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 15:44:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX2zH-0008DE-NS for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:44:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13797 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B105D205C2; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:44:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14D9D20594 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:43:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71AEF89842; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 22:42:59 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <4367D2D6.2060302@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com, aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [eap] Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:40:54 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba wrote: > I would like to point out one other consequence of preventing lower > layers (including AAA) from accessing the EMSK. It appears to me that > this severely restricts implementation of a key cache on the AAA server. > > 1. We've talked about deletion of transported keys from the AAA > server. So if an MSK (or AMSK) is calculated within the AAA layer and > subsequently transported, that key is destroyed and cannot be cached. From what I can recall, our earlier discussions about this focused on the MSK. I'm not sure the same should apply on AMSKs, particularly when we haven't defined what they are used for. > 2. We've talked about how the EMSK cannot be passed down to the lower > layer (including AAA). Therefore the EMSK also cannot be cached by > the AAA layer. This I still think should apply. > > 3. Given 1) and 2) what keys *can* be cached in the AAA layer? > Limited answers appear to be available. Caching of MSKs does not make > much sense, even if they are not transported in a particular > application, because some applications *do* transport MSKs. > > It would be possible for the AAA layer to request more than one AMSK, > then cache the AMSKs that are not transported. > > However, this approach does not appear to enable implementation of > schemes such as "Key Request" and "Pre-emptive Key Distribution", both > of which appear to require the AAA layer to calculate AMSKs *on demand*. > > To be able to do this, it would seem like the AAA server would need to > have access to the EMSK -- since the EAP layer doesn't cache EMSKs, > how else could AMSKs be calculated once EAP authentication completes? > In the case of roaming systems it is not feasible to ask the EAP layer > to calculate every conceivable AMSK that could be useful -- there > could be thousands of them. I think the answer lies in where the hierarchy is split. I still believe EAP server should hold to EMSK and calculate AMSKs on demand. But it seems possible to hand keys to lower layers (e.g. AAA server side logic) that are themselves branching of to number of subkeys. E.g. "the master handoff key for session xyz". The entity holding such an AMSK can then branch it to, e.g., "the i:th handoff key for NAS abc". There's a lot of room to do various designs, including proxy, AAA-server etc. based caching. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 16:18:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX3WE-00027L-AE for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:18:10 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15903 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1F3204C5; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:18:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C729320371 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:17:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA1LToS0006387 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:29:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA1LRupQ005898 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:27:56 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5DF29.B2C53BE5" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Bar-meeting on Handover keying design Thread-Index: AcXfKZwgQJPZzypdTkOes9hFZ7F3Pw== From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: Cc: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" Subject: [eap] Bar-meeting on Handover keying design Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:17:05 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5DF29.B2C53BE5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, This is a solicitation for folks interested in a Bar-meeting (Bar pre-BoF or whatever the meeting ends up being) discussing handover keying (I call it HOKEY, and have created a semi-formal proposal in case we end up needing a BOF name for Dallas, who knows it does not hurt to have these things handy :) ). I have a link to an old draft from April down at the bottom of this email, but unfortunately, I did not have time to write a new version of the draft. The old draft may be enough to initiate some discussion. Please let me know if you are interested in participating. We will decide on the "happy hour" time and location :) I have not yet set up a proper mailing list, so if you are simply interested in checking things out, ***you do not need to send me an email yet*** as I am sending this email to several lists. If I manage to set of a mailing list in time for IETF, an announcement is to follow. Regards, Madjid Nakhjiri Handover Keying (HOKEY) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The recent "AAA Key Management" guidelines as well as several IEEE and WiMAX specification documents attest to the increasing popularity of approach of striving to benefit from the interaction with the authentication (AAA) servers during the network entry to provision further keying materials for support of other networking applications or handovers to other networks.=20 Recent attempts in applying these methods to access technologies with mobility support (such as WiMAX) has shown that the existing specifications may needs to be further examined or extended from the point of view of handover keying or networking application keying support. It seems to be more efficient to instead initiate a well-thought and documented design with a first-hand focus on mobility and handover keying and authorization mechanisms. The initial goal of this activity can be to examine the combination of the EAP and AAA documentations to utilize the EAP keying framework and the AAA infrastructure for handover keying and provide an appropriate key hierarchy that can handle the requirements stated in "AAA key management" and further venturing into other network applications that may need keying support. A background problem statement can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nakhjiri-eap-ho-00.txt ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5DF29.B2C53BE5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bar-meeting on Handover keying design

Hi,

This is a solicitation for folks = interested in a Bar-meeting (Bar pre-BoF or whatever the meeting ends up = being) discussing handover keying (I call it HOKEY, and have created a = semi-formal proposal in case we end up needing a BOF name for Dallas, = who knows it does not hurt to have these things handy :) ). I have a = link to an old draft from April down at the bottom of this email, but = unfortunately, I did not have time to write a new version of the draft. = The old draft may be enough to initiate some discussion. Please let me = know if you are interested in participating. We will decide on the = "happy hour" time and location :)

I have not yet set up a proper mailing = list, so if you are simply interested in checking things out, ***you do = not need to send me an email yet*** as I am sending this email to = several lists.

If I manage to set of a mailing list in = time for IETF, an announcement is to follow.

Regards,

Madjid Nakhjiri

Handover Keying (HOKEY)
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The recent "AAA Key = Management" guidelines as well as several IEEE and WiMAX = specification documents attest to the increasing popularity of approach = of striving to benefit from the interaction with the authentication = (AAA) servers during the network entry to provision further keying = materials for support of other networking applications or handovers to = other networks.

Recent attempts in applying these = methods to access technologies with mobility support (such as WiMAX) has = shown that the existing specifications may needs to be further examined = or extended from the point of view of handover keying or networking = application keying support.

It seems to be more efficient to = instead initiate a well-thought and documented design with a first-hand = focus on mobility and handover keying and authorization mechanisms. The = initial goal of this activity can be to examine the combination of the = EAP and AAA documentations to utilize the EAP keying framework and the = AAA infrastructure for handover keying and provide an appropriate key = hierarchy that can handle the requirements stated in "AAA key = management" and further venturing into other network applications = that may need keying support.

A background problem statement = can be found at

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nakhjiri-eap-ho-00.txt

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5DF29.B2C53BE5-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 16:44:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX3vK-0000S3-NO for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:44:06 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17914 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62FD6204A5; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:44:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f18.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.28]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B0B20371 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:43:07 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:43:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [131.107.0.89] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <4367D2D6.2060302@piuha.net> From: "Bernard Aboba" To: eap@frascone.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Nov 2005 21:43:07.0792 (UTC) FILETIME=[3F44C100:01C5DF2D] Subject: [eap] Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:43:06 -0800 >From what I can recall, our earlier discussions about this focused on >the MSK. I'm not sure the same should apply on AMSKs, particularly >when we haven't defined what they are used for. The principle is a general one -- if a key that is transported is to be used for derivation of TSKs that are only to be known to the EAP peer and authenticator who need to be able to mutually authorize each other, then that same key cannot also continue to be held by the AAA server. If the AAA server continues to hold the key, then the TSKs will also be known by the AAA server; also, the peer cannot know whether the entity proving possession of keying material is the EAP authenticator, or an imposter such as the AAA server. As an example, the Secure Association Protocol relies on mutual proof of possession of keying material to enable the EAP peer and authenticator to determine that they are mutually authorized. If the keying material used for proof could also possessed by other parties then mutual authorization is not demonstrated -- the EAP peer could be talking to the AAA server or a proxy instead of the EAP authenticator. As a result, without key deletion, the EAP peer and authenticator no longer demonstrate authorization; neither the transported keys nor the derived TSKs are uniquely held; the scope of transported keys and TSKs is undefined; even Channel Bindings become open to forgery. About the only thing that can still be asserted about the exchange is that the TSKs are fresh -- although it's questionable how valuable this is if the other properties are absent. >But it seems possible to hand keys to lower layers (e.g. AAA server >side logic) that are themselves branching of to number of subkeys. >E.g. "the master handoff key for session xyz". The entity holding >such an AMSK can then branch it to, e.g., "the i:th handoff key >for NAS abc". There's a lot of room to do various designs, including >proxy, AAA-server etc. based caching. Right. I think this solves the problem. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From schorsch@wvhouse.com Tue Nov 01 17:42:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX4pT-0005ui-SH for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 17:42:07 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA21615 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from seymour-cuda1-69-173-89-49.albyny.adelphia.net ([69.173.89.49] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EX53w-00075F-Nu for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 17:57:05 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5df34$e4cf2000$0100007f@localhost> From: "Collin Watson" To: Subject: Buy OEM Software Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:42:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5DF34.E4CF2000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5DF34.E4CF2000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable.TOP.10.NEW.TITLES.ON.SALE.NOW!.1.Office.Pro.2003.2.Adobe.Photoshop.9.0.3.Windows.XP.Pro.4.Adobe.Acrobat.7.Pro.5.Flash.MX.2004.6.Corel.Draw.12.7.Norton.Antivirus.2005.8.Windows.2003.Se ListPrice: $550.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $480.05 ( 87%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! 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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5DF34.E4CF2000-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 17:55:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX526-0005DA-0A for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 17:55:10 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA22215 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48DDF20594; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:55:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 850A920371 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from il06exr02.mot.com (il06exr02.mot.com [129.188.137.132]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA1N6VDE023189 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:06:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA1N3HLa000192 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:03:17 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Thread-Index: AcXfEO8NmOxoqwiITCq4GlkZMZ3veQAIeYjg From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Bernard Aboba" , Cc: , , "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:53:45 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:bernard_aboba@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 12:20 PM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; aboba@internaut.com Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net; eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation >Section 2.2. of EAP keying 08 prohibits sending EMSK down to the lower=20 >layer (section 2.2). Right. This restriction was added in response to a comment which pointed out that sending the EMSK to the lower layer violated the principle of Mode Independence, since this would mean that the authenticator lower layer could obtain the EMSK in "stand alone" mode, but not in "pass-through" mode (since the EMSK cannot be transported). Madjid>>If I understand the mode independence, it means that the EAP method layer function is independent of existence of pass-through. For authentication, this makes sense. However, for key management I think it is a stretch. We are saying MSK and EMSK are generated through a method-dependent logic. Why would the EAP method layer care whether the keys are being sent down or not? The mode-independent notion of "authenticator" is the EAP server, not the pass-through, so whether you physically 3 parties or two parties, the EMSK could be pushed to the EAP server in either case. Aren't we mixing export and transport? Export is vertical in the layers, while transport is between boxes (at least in a pass-through model). I was really talking about export and that is why I was asking for a spelled out definition of export. >I assume "lower layer" includes AAA layer (even though 3748 section 2.2. >does not include AAA as a lower layer, even though 3579 is dated before >3748). RFC 3748, Figure 2 includes a diagram in which AAA operates as an EAP lower layer. Madjid>>I understand, I was just noting the lack of consistency in the specs. We are really down to hair splitting in the application of these drafts in other SDOs. >So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys >(AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer=20 >must itself authorize each service application and calculate any AMSK=20 >that are needed for that application. The implication is that the EAP layer is creating AMSKs in response to requests from lower layers (including AAA). Also note that the EAP layer is transforming the Method-ID into a Session-ID. So the document is outlining a role for the EAP layer as something of a "security policeman", something which is not described in RFC 3748. Madjid>> This means EAP layer needs to get into creating keys for any other application. People have already suggested AMSKs for Mobile IPv6, do we want EAP to handle all that? It really should be AAA. However, I don't think this necessarily extends to adding authorization to the EAP layer. My understanding was the the EAP layer does not examine the AMSK request, it just honors it. Madjid>> so it means EAP layer acts as a very generous AAA server. Also it means EAP needs to keep EMSK and generates AMSKs from whatever application that asks for it.=20 >Not only we are including a role of >authorization into an EAP server, but also we are saying the EAP layer=20 >must anticipate all applications that need to derive their keys based=20 >on the EAP keying process. Should not be the AAA server to make=20 >authorization decisions and generate keys for the services accordingly=20 >(say a master key for an access technology or a master key to provide=20 >handover support)? Well, that is what the document had said prior to the change being applied in response to the comment. In some ways leaving AMSK generation to the lower layer is cleaner, because it does not add functionality to the EAP layer, which is typically just thought of as a "switch" in RFC 3748 and RFC 4317. However, there is the issue that this violates "Mode Independence". >Furthermore in section 2.3 under AAA, a "AAA layer" is mentioned and it >says, the AAA layer must delete an MSK that has been transported to the >authenticator. The requirement is actually that *any* transported key be deleted. This would apply to more than just the MSK -- if an AMSK were transported, it also would need to be deleted. This is required in order to fulfill the basic security goal, which is that the TSKs are known only to the EAP peer and authenticator. If transported keys are left on the AAA server, then the AAA server also has knowledge of the TSKs. Madjid>> Well, lets pause and see how practical that is. If TSKs are generated based a nonce-exchange between the peer and the authenticator, the AAA server would really have to have a sensor to listen in on the link. Even if it did, what is the trust issue with AAA server knowing the keys. What is the threat? So I don't understand that requirement on the AAA server, why would a key transported from AAA server must be deleted? Problems: >1) The EAP RFC does not distinguish between authenticator and=20 >authentication server (the EAP server). The way to read this is that the document is specifying the behavior of the AAA layer with respect to key handling. This is not inherently a violation=20 of the principle of "Mode Independence". For example, it is not=20 incompatible to say that existing AAA servers don't cache keys while reviewing key caching behavior of IEEE 802.11i. Madjid>>Still not convinced that some implementation of AAA server for 802.11i should be the base for such a strong requirement. >So EAP RFC does not really talk about MSK transport. We are now saying=20 >MSK and AAA key are >the same In RFC 4072 (an IETF Proposed Standard) the keying attribute is called "EAP-Master-Session-Key" rather than "AAA-Key" This choice (which I think was quite wise) was made in order to make sure it is very clear what key is being referred to. Going forward, there may be more than one key involved (MSK, AMSKs, etc.), so that talking about a "AAA-Key" is very problematic. =20 If it is necessary to transport AMSKs, it is probably best if a specific attribute is created for this purpose (e.g.=20 EAP-Application-Master-Session-Key), so as to be able to distinguish different kinds of keys and keep confusion to a minimum. Madjid>>Yes, unfortunately, RADIUS does not have that, I was hoping that Glen's key wrapping draft would fill that gap, not sure what is happening with that. And yes on the "AAA-key" being problematic. I think adding the AAA-key notion into the EAP keying draft is only confusing. I think this draft should only focus on MSK/ EMSK and provide more guidance on the whichs and hows of the transport of these keys. I understand if EMSK is not supposed to be transported, but I am debating for allowing to export it to EAP lower layer to allow that layer to decide on authorization, calculation and transportation of AMSK. >to the authenticator (which btw is not recognized in 3748) The term "authenticator" is both defined and used in RFC 3748. Madjid>> what I meant was authenticator as pass-through, not as server is not recognized in 3748 >EAP layer should really not care about (AAA should deal with that)? >It seems that even when we are talking about method independence,=20 >algorithm independence and lower layer independence, we are building an >application dependence in the EAP layer. It would indeed be unfortunate to create an "application dependence" in the EAP layer. However, I'm not sure that AMSK proposal does that, necessarily. If all the EAP layer does it take parameters from the lower layer to create AMSKs, and then unconditionally carry out the lower layer's instructions, then I think the mechanism could be quite general. Madjid>> Yes, I agree, but prohibiting EMSK export will make application dependence very hard. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 18:05:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX5Bj-0001Po-4J for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 18:05:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22619 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:04:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F53205FB; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:05:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB52620371 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from il06exr02.mot.com (il06exr02.mot.com [129.188.137.132]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA1NH372025111 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:17:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA1NDn5Q005256 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:13:49 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Thread-Index: AcXcAxlyKdQmRrw/Q+isniMry6693wDBZ5qgAAEsRVAACn7GkA== From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Salowey, Joe" , "Bernard Aboba" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , , "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:04:17 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joe,=20 [Joe] In my opinion AAA is not an EAP lower layer. The EAP lower layer is in direct communication with the authenticator.=20 Madjid>>Well,... You got two RFCs to deal with: EAP over RADIUS and EAP over Diameter :) but joking aside, so far I have not been concerned about the definition of lower layer. I just want to allow the AAA server to take more benefit from the EAP key hierarchy by letting the AMSK generation be handled by the AAA server. > So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys > (AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer=20 > must itself authorize each service application and calculate any AMSK=20 > that are needed for that application. [Joe] What is important is that the EMSK be contained. It MUST NOT be passed down directly to the lower layer. It should be maintained as close to the EAP Server as possible. Personally I think another entity should be defined that manages this derivation. Controlling access to keys requires authorization (although not necessarily service authorization). Madjid>> Not sure why we cannot trust AAA server and want to overload the EAP server this way. Plus it seems that EMSK is most of the time considered as "for future use", so why would the EMSK have to be contained, if it could be passed to AAA server for future use (I know we are talking about different time frames here :) ). =20 > Not > only we are including a role of authorization into an EAP server, but=20 > also we are saying the EAP layer must anticipate all applications that > need to derive their keys based on the EAP keying process. [Joe] From a security point of view it would be best if the AMSK were derived from the EMSK as soon as possible so the EMSK can be deleted. So I think that the possible need for AMSKs should be anticipated.=20 Madjid>>What if you need AMSK for multiple applications. Why are we using the "M" is the MSK and EMSK then?=20 > Should not be the AAA server to make > authorization decisions and generate keys for the services accordingly > (say a master key for an access technology or a master key to provide=20 > handover support)? >=20 [Joe] Yes the AAA server should, however it is also possible to use EAP without AAA so we have to be careful with terminology.=20 Madjid>>What key could the AAA server use. It does not get the EMSK and it has to dump MSK or AMSK as soon as it transports it, what if another application comes along and now you don't have any keys left? > Furthermore in section 2.3 under AAA, a "AAA layer" is=20 > mentioned and it says, the AAA layer must delete an MSK that=20 > has been transported to the authenticator. Problems:=20 > 1) The EAP RFC does not distinguish between authenticator and=20 > authentication server (the EAP server). [Joe] This is OK the EAP Authenticator and EAP Server can be viewed as part of the same logical entity with repsec to the lower layer. It probably should say that once the key is delivered to the lower layer it should be deleted from the EAP Authenticator and EAP server. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Nov 01 19:12:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EX6Ea-0003VU-AM for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:12:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA25796 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 19:11:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB582205CB; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 19:12:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5BB20371 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 19:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Nov 2005 16:11:13 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,277,1125903600"; d="scan'208"; a="226238926:sNHT28338082" Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id jA20B9UM029666; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:11:11 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69062F558B@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Thread-Index: AcXcAxlyKdQmRrw/Q+isniMry6693wDBZ5qgAAEsRVAACn7GkAABO6JA From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" , "Bernard Aboba" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:55:02 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 3:04 PM > To: Salowey, Joe; Bernard Aboba > Cc: Jari Arkko; eap@frascone.com; Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 > Subject: RE: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for=20 > AMSK creation >=20 > Hi Joe,=20 >=20 >=20 > > [Joe] In my opinion AAA is not an EAP lower layer. The EAP=20 > lower layer is in direct communication with the authenticator.=20 >=20 > Madjid>>Well,... You got two RFCs to deal with: EAP over=20 > RADIUS and EAP > over Diameter :) but joking aside, so far I have not been=20 > concerned about the definition of lower layer. I just want to=20 > allow the AAA server to take more benefit from the EAP key=20 > hierarchy by letting the AMSK generation be handled by the AAA server. >=20 > > So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys > > (AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer=20 > > must itself authorize each service application and=20 > calculate any AMSK=20 > > that are needed for that application. >=20 > [Joe] What is important is that the EMSK be contained. It=20 > MUST NOT be passed down directly to the lower layer. It=20 > should be maintained as close to the EAP Server as possible.=20 > Personally I think another entity should be defined that=20 > manages this derivation. Controlling access to keys requires=20 > authorization (although not necessarily service authorization). >=20 > Madjid>> Not sure why we cannot trust AAA server and want to overload > the EAP server this way. Plus it seems that EMSK is most of=20 > the time considered as "for future use", so why would the=20 > EMSK have to be contained, if it could be passed to AAA=20 > server for future use (I know we are talking about different=20 > time frames here :) ). > [Joe] One problem we have is that AAA is not an EAP entity which makes this discussion rather difficult. I'm OK with defining another entity that can handle the key derivation, but its not the AAA. It may be contained within the AAA and accessed by the AAA etc. =20 Perhaps the EAP server exports a KDF that can be used to retrieve AMSKs based on the EMSK. This EAP-KDF component controls access to the keying material by restricting which other components can obtain keys for a certain application so that one application can retrieve another applications keys. Beyond this the application is responsible for access control of the AMSK and any keys derived from it.=20 >=20 > > Not > > only we are including a role of authorization into an EAP=20 > server, but=20 > > also we are saying the EAP layer must anticipate all=20 > applications that >=20 > > need to derive their keys based on the EAP keying process. >=20 > [Joe] From a security point of view it would be best if the=20 > AMSK were derived from the EMSK as soon as possible so the=20 > EMSK can be deleted. > So I think that the possible need for AMSKs should be anticipated.=20 >=20 > Madjid>>What if you need AMSK for multiple applications. Why are we > using the "M" is the MSK and EMSK then?=20 >=20 [Joe] Not sure what you mean. The EMSK is used to derive AMSK. That is its sole purpose. Once the keys are derived it can be removed. Using the EMSK directly can lead to a problem where a compromise in one application compromises all applications.=20 > > Should not be the AAA server to make > > authorization decisions and generate keys for the services=20 > accordingly >=20 > > (say a master key for an access technology or a master key=20 > to provide=20 > > handover support)? > >=20 >=20 > [Joe] Yes the AAA server should, however it is also possible=20 > to use EAP without AAA so we have to be careful with terminology.=20 >=20 > Madjid>>What key could the AAA server use. It does not get=20 > the EMSK and > it has to dump MSK or AMSK as soon as it transports it, what=20 > if another application comes along and now you don't have any=20 > keys left? >=20 [Joe] The AAA can do what it wants with a AMSK it receives according to the definition of the application that uses the AMSK. Caching or deriving other keys from the AMSK is entirely possible.=20 > > Furthermore in section 2.3 under AAA, a "AAA layer" is=20 > mentioned and=20 > > it says, the AAA layer must delete an MSK that has been=20 > transported to=20 > > the authenticator. Problems: > > 1) The EAP RFC does not distinguish between authenticator and=20 > > authentication server (the EAP server). >=20 > [Joe] This is OK the EAP Authenticator and EAP Server can be=20 > viewed as part of the same logical entity with repsec to the=20 > lower layer. It probably should say that once the key is=20 > delivered to the lower layer it should be deleted from the=20 > EAP Authenticator and EAP server. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From molli@lowepro.biz Wed Nov 02 02:35:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXD9A-00048O-3Q for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 02:35:00 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA17451 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 02:34:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from bb063.nj.pl ([194.150.239.63] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EXDNR-0003Ao-OG for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 02:50:02 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5df7e$f806dd80$0100007f@localhost> From: "Orlando Martin" To: Subject: OEM Software Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 07:34:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5DF7E.F806DD80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5DF7E.F806DD80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable.TOP.10.NEW.TITLES.ON.SALE.NOW!.1.Office.Pro.2003.2.Adobe.Photoshop.9.0.3.Windows.XP.Pro.4.Adobe.Acrobat.7.Pro.5.Flash.MX.2004.6.Corel.Draw.12.7.Norton.Antivirus.2005.8.Windows.2003.Se ListPrice: $550.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $480.05 ( 87%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! 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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5DF7E.F806DD80-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Nov 02 02:42:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXDG1-0006hS-JM for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 02:42:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA17758 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 02:41:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5005204D0; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 02:42:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F6A2034F for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 02:41:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A6389863; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:41:08 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <43686D17.6020709@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Salowey, Joe" Cc: Bernard Aboba , Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com, aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69062F54A3@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69062F54A3@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:39:03 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Salowey, Joe wrote: >[Joe] The applications define how they use AMSKs. They could define two >different AMSKs for caching and transport if that was what was required. >There are lots of ways an application can misuse keys. The purpose of >the AMSK is to keep one applications misuse of keys from harming >another. > > Right. This is what I believe we need to specify in the keying framework. (And we can't probably specify much beyond that, given that we don't even know what the applications are.) >[Joe] Mostly I have reservations about caching the EMSK. The EMSK is >the root of a hierarchy and if you can obtain that then all uses derived >from it are compromised. Therefore it would be good to destroy it as >soon as possible. AMSKs should be cryptographically independent and it >should not be computationally feasible to get the EMSK from and AMSK. > > I agree. Note: "destroy EMSK as soon as possible" can be interpreted in various ways. I don't think it would be appropriate for the EAP server to get rid of the EMSK problem by delivering it to the lower layer and forgetting about it. Essentially, the EMSK needs to stay in the physical box where the EAP method runs, but we have had troubly defining what that exactly means. Also, it only needs to exist while there's a possibility that AMSKs can be requested. This is another hard-to-specify part - when can AMSKs be requested? --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Nov 02 02:43:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXDH1-0006yA-8k for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 02:43:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA17805 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 02:42:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99FC204D0; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 02:43:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D22204D0 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 02:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D4689863; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:42:15 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <43686D5B.1030108@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:40:11 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba wrote: >> From what I can recall, our earlier discussions about this focused on >> the MSK. I'm not sure the same should apply on AMSKs, particularly >> when we haven't defined what they are used for. > > > The principle is a general one (snip) > > As an example, the Secure Association Protocol relies on mutual proof of > possession of keying material to enable the EAP peer and authenticator to > determine that they are mutually authorized. If the keying material used > for proof could also possessed by other parties then mutual > authorization is not demonstrated -- the EAP peer could be talking > to the AAA server or a proxy instead of the EAP authenticator. > > As a result, without key deletion, the EAP peer and authenticator no > longer demonstrate authorization; neither the transported keys nor the > derived TSKs are uniquely held; the scope of > transported keys and TSKs is undefined; even Channel Bindings become > open to forgery. I could be missing something obvious, but I'm not sure the above is true if we look at the details. Not all keys are created equal... Secure Association Protocol runs on MSKs, so a compromise of an AMSK form the same session could not compromise Secure Association Protocol or the MSK, given that we already require that these keys are cryptographically separate. Similarly, if the usage of AMSK_1 in application 1 is compromised, this does not lead to a compromise of AMSK_2 in application 2. However, what we DO want to ensure is that if AMSKs are used for a fast handoff design, then in that particular design the Secure Association Protocol can still demonstrate mutual proof of possession. This may not be trivial, but I would note that we do not have a proposal on the table for this, so the issue seems Someone Else's Problem from the point of view of the EAP keying framework document. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From michaehaske@gcikiwi.com Wed Nov 02 08:58:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXJ8E-0007Od-NG for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:58:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07379 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from host-157.sterling.macomnet.net ([213.247.219.157] helo=gcikiwi.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EXJMo-0002Z1-98 for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:13:32 -0500 Received: by 192.168.36.26 with SMTP id saDYPR-NXqRjl-lt; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:59:26 -0500 Received: by 192.168.97.114 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:59:26 -0500 Message-ID: <002a01c5dfb5$a0d02f80$7261a8c0@shoemaker> From: "Michae Haskell" To: "Gathbiyya Schindler" Subject: Re: Traviss think about it Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:59:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01C5DF8B.B7FA2780" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C5DF8B.B7FA2780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable H miss Ph press Spec ffer i Don't armaEx ial O CIVALeXaVIAm ALIS Now $LIUM Now $vitranaxAGRA Now $bien 3.671.23 3.32 plus many other - http://abdominousvud.maslauter.com Best Home Total Easy Fast PrDeCoOrSh icesliverynfidentialityderingipping ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C5DF8B.B7FA2780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
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------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C5DF8B.B7FA2780-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Nov 02 10:00:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXK5v-0004Ji-UM for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 10:00:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA11136 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C74A205E8; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:00:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f30.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E814C204E1 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 06:59:46 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:59:45 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.182.139.247] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com From: "Bernard Aboba" To: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2005 14:59:46.0121 (UTC) FILETIME=[105C9390:01C5DFBE] Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 06:59:45 -0800 >[Joe] Mostly I have reservations about caching the EMSK. The EMSK is >the root of a hierarchy and if you can obtain that then all uses derived >from it are compromised. Therefore it would be good to destroy it as >soon as possible. AMSKs should be cryptographically independent and it >should not be computationally feasible to get the EMSK from and AMSK. > > >I agree. > >Note: "destroy EMSK as soon as possible" can be >interpreted in various ways. I don't think it would be appropriate >for the EAP server to get rid of the EMSK problem by delivering >it to the lower layer and forgetting about it. Essentially, the >EMSK needs to stay in the physical box where the EAP method >runs, but we have had troubly defining what that exactly >means. Also, it only needs to exist while there's a possibility that >AMSKs can be requested. This is another hard-to-specify part - >when can AMSKs be requested? I think the way that the architecture is specified now, it is not possible to cache the EMSK. Only lower layers are allowed to cache, and the lower layer (including AAA) never obtains the EMSK, only AMSKs. My assumption has been that AMSKs can only be requested by the lower layer while the EAP method is running. As Joe suggested, if there is a need for *on demand* keys, this can be satisfied by deriving them from an AMSK. Since the EAP layer does not cache keys, there is no way for a lower layer to request an AMSK at some other time, since the EAP layer will not have any keying material with which to carry out the request. My own reservations with AAA server caching derive from the issues surrounding "on demand" key creation: a. Presumably keys are created "on demand" only when requested by either the EAP peer or authenticator. This implies that the EAP peer or authenticator keep track of which AAA server is caching which keys, so that they can direct subsequent requests to a server capable of answering them. b. However, all EAP methods do not provide the Server-ID, which uniquely identifies the EAP server which has produced a given key. Also, an EAP authenticator/AAA client may not necessarily control which AAA server it is talking to; it just sends an Access-Request with an NAI in the User-Name attribute and it is routed to a destination. The Access-Accept may not identify the originating AAA server well enough to allow the AAA client to go back to that same AAA server again to request an "on demand" key from it. Given this, it is not clear to me how a "Key Request" mode could be made to work with all EAP methods or AAA configurations. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 12:39:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXMa0-0004Lz-Ib for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 12:39:20 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24262 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47912064E; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:39:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F010D20644; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:39:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D152063E; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [144.189.100.101]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0320220620 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:38:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate2.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate2) with ESMTP id jA2HrsPg008339 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:53:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA2HkBi2002767 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:46:11 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXfFeogR1nEXDC5R8q/29pcfD6zHgAvBQjA From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Bernard Aboba" , Cc: , , "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:37:46 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bernard, Thanks, Actually this is the very reason I initiated this discussion. So I think we are now converging our focus on the problem. We need a key that can be passed to the AAA server, so that the AAA server can use this key (instead of creating something completely random, which is expensive) for an application that AAA server has the right to authorize, without the AAA having to destroy the key after transporting it. It seems that the AMSK as an "application master key" is being derived from EMSK, so unless there is one additional hierarchy level between EMSK and AMSK, three things are needed: The EMSK to be exported to AAA server (I am ok if we say EMSK is not exported to a generic lower layer, but only to the AAA server and not transported out of AAA server). The AMSK is generated at the AAA server using EMSK and application-specific information, if needed (e.g. authorization info) information.=20 The ability for AAA server to cache the AMSK as long as the EMSK is valid. This way the AAA server and EAP keying framework can be used in a very clean way to bootstrap keys for many applications. Ordering the AAA server to delete the AMSK will prohibit the use of this framework by many of its current constituencies, examples:=20 WiMAX Proxy Mobile IP: needs a Mobile IP key between the authenticator and the home agent, AMSK can be the PMIP key to be shared between an authenticator acting as a proxy mobile IP client and the home agent. You send the key separately to authenticator and to Mobile IP HA. If you delete it after first transport, how could the HA can come ask for it. Several EAP methods (EAP-AKA) are adding fast re-authentication procedures, based on the knowledge of master key (have to read the draft again, to see which key is needed) after the initial authentication. If you delete the key, you cannot perform fast re-authentications. Handover, say another authenticator gets involved after the handover, if you delete the initial master keys, what would the AAA server do when it receives a request from the new authenticator? Madjid -----Original Message----- From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:bernard_aboba@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 12:56 PM To: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com; Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; aboba@internaut.com Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net; eap@frascone.com Subject: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? I would like to point out one other consequence of preventing lower layers (including AAA) from accessing the EMSK. It appears to me that this severely restricts implementation of a key cache on the AAA server. 1. We've talked about deletion of transported keys from the AAA server. So if an MSK (or AMSK) is calculated within the AAA layer and subsequently transported, that key is destroyed and cannot be cached. 2. We've talked about how the EMSK cannot be passed down to the lower layer (including AAA). Therefore the EMSK also cannot be cached by the AAA layer. 3. Given 1) and 2) what keys *can* be cached in the AAA layer? Limited answers appear to be available. Caching of MSKs does not make much sense, even if they are not transported in a particular application, because some applications *do* transport MSKs. It would be possible for the AAA layer to request more than one AMSK, then cache the AMSKs that are not transported. However, this approach does not appear to enable implementation of schemes such as "Key Request" and "Pre-emptive Key Distribution", both of which appear to require the AAA layer to calculate AMSKs *on demand*. To be able to do this, it would seem like the AAA server would need to have access to the EMSK -- since the EAP layer doesn't cache EMSKs, how else could AMSKs be calculated once EAP authentication completes? In the case of roaming systems it is not feasible to ask the EAP layer to calculate every conceivable AMSK that could be useful -- there could be thousands of them. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 12:45:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXMfo-0006rR-PE for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 12:45:21 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA25254 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:44:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606F120664; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:45:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C021420658; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:45:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D3520657; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:44:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C0C20647 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:44:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr01.mot.com (az33exr01.mot.com [10.64.251.231]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id jA2HiHfD012236 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:44:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA2Hv41M005260 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:57:05 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXfFsCQTbDY+5scTRaWkimAgfbI7QAADXkQAC9TkgA= From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Salowey, Joe" , "Bernard Aboba" , Cc: , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:43:34 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > 1. We've talked about deletion of transported keys from the AAA=20 > server. So if an MSK (or AMSK) is calculated within the AAA layer and > subsequently transported, that key is destroyed and cannot be cached. >=20 [Joe] I don't think we have said that the AMSK must be deleted or cannot be cached. It should be the contrary, the AMSK is a quantity that an application such as AAA can use for the purpose it has defined.=20 Madjid>> AAA can _use_? How about create and keep? [Joe] This depends on how you define your key hierarchy. If you derive your keys directly from the EMSK you have a problem. If you define your keys from an AMSK derive for the purpose of pre-emptive key distribution then things work out a bit better.=20 Madjid>>Are you saying we create our application specific keys out of AMSK that is already called application master key? Not sure what "rainy day" we are saving EMSK for? Why have so many key levels, does anybody care about the CPU and battery consumptions down at a tiny mobile device that may have to do all this?=20 > To be able to do this, it would seem like the AAA server would need to > have access to the EMSK -- since the EAP layer doesn't cache EMSKs,=20 > how else could AMSKs be calculated once EAP authentication completes? > In the case of roaming systems it is not feasible to ask the EAP layer > to calculate every conceivable AMSK that could be useful -- there=20 > could be thousands of them. >=20 [Joe] An AMSK is an application specific master key. Typically there are a few applications for key material that will be invoked for a particular EAP transaction. For example you might have L2 ciphering, preemptive hand-off and Joe's service activation. Each of these would get their own AMSKs, in addition my assumptions is that in many cases you know if you have the capability or the desire to perform these services so it is possible to derive these AMSKs at the same time. These AMSK's may be cached by entities that will then use them derive thousands of keys for ciphering, hand-off, buying auto-parts, etc. =20 Are there cases where we really have 1000's of different applications or where the application is not known ahead of time. If this turns out to be the case then AAA may need to have access to a KDF that has access to the EMSK.=20 Madjid>> I gave 3 examples in my previous email. Are we now creating yet another entity in the protocol? What is a KDF in relation to EAP server and AAA server? >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 12:53:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXMnW-0002iF-8L for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 12:53:18 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA26462 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066F020667; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:53:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3AD42066C; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:53:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353E720667; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:52:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f3.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.13]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98C120660 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:52:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:52:09 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 17:52:08 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.182.139.247] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Bernard Aboba" To: Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com, jsalowey@cisco.com, aboba@internaut.com Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net, eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2005 17:52:09.0626 (UTC) FILETIME=[25922FA0:01C5DFD6] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:52:08 -0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) >[Joe] I don't think we have said that the AMSK must be deleted or cannot >be cached. It should be the contrary, the AMSK is a quantity that an >application such as AAA can use for the purpose it has defined. Agreed. >Madjid>> AAA can _use_? How about create and keep? The AAA layer cannot create an AMSK because it does not have access to the EMSK. So it can only receive an AMSK. >[Joe] This depends on how you define your key hierarchy. If you derive >your keys directly from the EMSK you have a problem. If you define your >keys from an AMSK derive for the purpose of pre-emptive key distribution >then things work out a bit better. Right. This makes sense. >Madjid>>Are you saying we create our application specific keys out of >AMSK that is already called application master key? No. We are saying that the AMSK is used as the root of a lower layer key hierarchy. >Not sure what "rainy day" we are saving EMSK for? Why have so many key >levels, does anybody >care about the CPU and battery consumptions down at a tiny mobile device >that may have to do all this? The EMSK is not cached, so there is no "rainy day" that it is being saved for -- it is used to calculate AMSKs passed to the lower layer and then is lost. BTW, a concern about key hierarchy depth and handoff does not appear to be shared by the organizations that are designing those protocols. IEEE 802.11r, for example, had three layers of key hierarchy last time I looked. >Madjid>> I gave 3 examples in my previous email. Are we now creating yet >another entity in the protocol? No other entities have been discussed so far. >What is a KDF in relation to EAP server and AAA server? KDF = Key Distribution Function. This is a cryptographic function used to calculate AMSKs. It is not an entity. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 12:57:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXMrP-0004z3-80 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 12:57:19 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA26688 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:56:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970A82069C; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:57:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A522067D; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:57:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A47620679; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3AA520678 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Nov 2005 09:55:50 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,282,1125903600"; d="scan'208"; a="359917223:sNHT1117680278" Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id jA2HtlUK018053; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:55:47 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69062F56EC@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXfFsCQTbDY+5scTRaWkimAgfbI7QAADXkQAC9TkgAAAE0/kA== From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" , "Bernard Aboba" , Cc: , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:01:22 -0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 9:44 AM > To: Salowey, Joe; Bernard Aboba; aboba@internaut.com > Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net; eap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? >=20 > > 1. We've talked about deletion of transported keys from the AAA=20 > > server. So if an MSK (or AMSK) is calculated within the=20 > AAA layer and >=20 > > subsequently transported, that key is destroyed and cannot=20 > be cached. > >=20 > [Joe] I don't think we have said that the AMSK must be=20 > deleted or cannot be cached. It should be the contrary, the=20 > AMSK is a quantity that an application such as AAA can use=20 > for the purpose it has defined.=20 >=20 > Madjid>> AAA can _use_? How about create and keep? >=20 [Joe] The AAA can keep the AMSK if that is what the application specifies to be done. Generating an AMSK from an EMSK is a more specialized function that needs to exist outside of AAA since EAP does not require AAA. >=20 > [Joe] This depends on how you define your key hierarchy. If=20 > you derive your keys directly from the EMSK you have a=20 > problem. If you define your keys from an AMSK derive for the=20 > purpose of pre-emptive key distribution then things work out=20 > a bit better.=20 >=20 > Madjid>>Are you saying we create our application specific keys out of > AMSK that is already called application master key? Not sure=20 > what "rainy day" we are saving EMSK for? Why have so many key=20 > levels, does anybody care about the CPU and battery=20 > consumptions down at a tiny mobile device that may have to do=20 > all this?=20 >=20 [Joe] The EMSK is the root of a key hierarchy used only to generate AMSKs. This is to ensure that application keys are cryptographically separate from one another so that one application does not cause a compromise in another. If the EMSK is used by multiple applications this opens you up to a catastrophic compromise if one application has a problem.=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 12:58:35 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXMsc-00068T-Ib for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 12:58:35 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA26765 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:58:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B86206AA; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB3AE20679; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:58:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C7820679; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6915120695 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id jA2HvBfD017164 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:57:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA2I4Ajp027279 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:04:11 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXfGuVgrNo26vMTT7O0IXyx1V0DAQAumIig From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Bernard Aboba" , , Cc: , , "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:56:28 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Keys can't simultaneously be transported and cached. So either a given AMSK is cached, or it is transported, not both. Otherwise you end up with multiple parties in possession of the TSKs -- which violates one of the fundamental security goals. Madjid>>Why not both? Please remember that as I said earlier, even if the AAA server can listen to the exchanges leading to the TSK generation, AAA server is still considered as the main source of trust in many network architectures.=20 We know that many SDOs and technologies today do key context transfer at the edge, so I am not worried about keeping the cache at the AAA server, especially knowing that the AAA server may be asked for it later. I need a solution that work both mobility and security wise, so if the tradeoff is to trust a AAA server I will take it. Can you describe your reservations? In looking at AAA server caching, it seems to me like it could open up a lot of new security vulnerabilities, some of which we may not be able to anticipate. For example, if a key exists in a AAA server cache, does the EAP peer know where that key is, and how to reference it? If the EAP method doesn't export a Server-ID, I think the answer to this question is "no". Madjid>> The current specification needs to be clear on the boundaries of EAP server and AAA server and what is done in EAP layer and what is done through AAA protocol. Once we have a crisp spec, then we have a crisp problem definition and such problems are typically easier to solve and whether layer pollution is a severe violation. This is similar to the channel binding problem. Madjid _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 13:11:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXN4w-0007hb-PN for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 13:11:19 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28089 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE51206B9; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B469E206AE; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:11:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85DD7206A9; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:10:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [144.189.100.101]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83C120694 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr03.mot.com (az33exr03.mot.com [10.64.251.233]) by motgate2.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate2) with ESMTP id jA2IPtgU007587 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 11:25:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA2IK49i004811 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 12:20:05 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXfG8iN6C3HV9bmRZu3Qjv3g35ctgAANFZAAC6WMcA= From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Salowey, Joe" , "Bernard Aboba" , Cc: , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:09:46 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 [Joe] Mostly I have reservations about caching the EMSK. The EMSK is the root of a hierarchy and if you can obtain that then all uses derived from it are compromised. Therefore it would be good to destroy it as soon as possible. AMSKs should be cryptographically independent and it should not be computationally feasible to get the EMSK from and AMSK. =20 Madjid>>You can prune the roots as much as you want, as long as there is something left that becomes the root for the tree. Bonsai Trees live for many many years that way:) Joking aside, if you destroy the EMSK, keep AMSK, then AMSK becomes your most key and main source of vulnerability, so I am not sure what is achieved? > All these services exist within a single lower layer, right? =20 > Presumably the lower layer knows that it will need these AMSKs, so it=20 > can ask the EAP layer for them. >=20 [Joe] These are all different applications that in general don't know about one another, however the entity that is requesting the authentication (EAP Authenticator system) has an idea of what applications will be used. It could potentially deliver keys to multiple different applications/lower layers if necessary. The lower layer may be intimately involved in some aspects such as ciphering, but for others it may have no knowledge. There could be multiple lower layers or enhanced services provided by a lower layer that operate independently. =20 Madjid>>I like to at least initially assume that an application is authorized by the AAA server, and hence there is a level of mutual awareness here.=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 13:19:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXNCf-0004i9-U9 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 13:19:19 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28520 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:18:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3965206C2; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:19:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D022066E; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:19:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7765D20668; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f5.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.15]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DBA52064A for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:18:17 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:18:16 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.182.139.247] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Bernard Aboba" To: Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com, aboba@internaut.com Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net, eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2005 18:18:17.0299 (UTC) FILETIME=[CBFA1A30:01C5DFD9] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 10:18:16 -0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) >We need a key that can be passed to the AAA server, so that the AAA >server can use this key (instead of creating something completely >random, which is expensive) for an application that AAA server has the >right to authorize, without the AAA having to destroy the key after >transporting it. I think Joe provided an answer to this -- an AMSK can be created that is used solely for the purposes of caching. >The EMSK to be exported to AAA server (I am ok if we say EMSK is not >exported to a generic lower layer, but only to the AAA server and not >transported out of AAA server). In the current draft, the EMSK is not passed to any lower layer, including AAA. >The AMSK is generated at the AAA server using EMSK and >application-specific information, if needed (e.g. authorization info) >information. The AMSK cannot be generated by the AAA server if it doesn't have access to the EMSK. >The ability for AAA server to cache the AMSK as long as the EMSK is valid. The AMSK lifetime cannot be determined by the EMSK lifetime if an AMSK is cached and the EMSK is to be destroyed after EAP authentication finishes. The existing draft says that "death of the parent causes death of the child" so some adjustment is required to this to accomodate AMSK caching. >Ordering the AAA >server to delete the AMSK will prohibit the use of this framework by >many of its current constituencies, examples: So far, all that has been discussed is destruction of keys that are transported. AMSKs explicitly created for caching do not have to be deleted. >If you delete it after first transport, how could the HA can come ask for >it. One of the AAA key management requirements is that keys only be provided to parties that "need to know" about them, and that parties generating keys be mutually authenticated. Since the AAA server does not "need to know" the TSKs used between the EAP peer and authenticator, it must not have access to the information needed to generate those TSKs -- namely the transported keys. By deleting the transported keys, the Secure Association Protocol proof of possession gains greater meaning, since the EAP peer knows that only the EAP authenticator and itself have access to the transported keying material; the AAA server does not. >Several EAP methods (EAP-AKA) are adding fast re-authentication >procedures, based on the knowledge of master key (have to read the draft >again, to see which key is needed) after the initial authentication. If >you delete the key, you cannot perform fast re-authentications. Fast re-authentication is typically based on EAP method-specific keys which are not exported. So deletion of the MSK or EMSK has no bearing on fast re-authentication. >Handover, say another authenticator gets involved after the handover, if >you delete the initial master keys, what would the AAA server do when it >receives a request from the new authenticator? Under Joe's proposal, an AMSK created during the original exchange can be cached in the AAA server. One way that "Key Request" could work would be for the EAP peer to request that a key be sent to the new authenticator. It would make this request by contacting the new authenticator, which would generate a AAA request. The EAP peer would mutually authenticate to the AAA server, demonstrate possession of the cached AMSK, and then request that a key derived from that AMSK be sent to the new EAP authenticator. Via the AAA request the new EAP authenticator would mutually authenticate to the AAA Server. So we have: a. Authentication of parties: EAP peer- AAA server; EAP authenticator - EAP server; EAP peer-authenticator (through a subsequent SAP exchange) b. Freshness. Presumably the EAP peer - AAA server exchange includes nonces exchanged by both parties to ensure freshness of the derived keys. Also the SAP exchange would include a nonce exchange. c. "Channel binding": The EAP peer requests that a key be sent via the entity that it wants the key sent to. The new authenticator identifies itself to the AAA server, allowing the EAP peer and AAA server to verify that it is telling the same information to both the AAA server and EAP peer. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 16:22:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXQ3t-0006yo-RC for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 16:22:26 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08755 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0182070E; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021B520704; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:22:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6154E20703; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:21:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48D5206FD for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:21:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA2LXIkT021580 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 14:33:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA2LTQTb022835 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 15:29:26 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXfJN5VkltBvVI3RGaZmwJ+5ZtpkQAzeb1g From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Jari Arkko" , "Bernard Aboba" Cc: , , "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:20:26 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jari,=20 Ok, if people feel strongly about not exporting the EMSK to the lower layer. Then it would seem that a generic AMSK needs to be generated and passed down to the lower layer (AAA server). The AAA server then should be able keep the AMSK and to generate other application-specific keys from the AMSK.=20 Furthermore, it should be possible for the AAA server to not to delete every key it has transported to the pass-through authenticator Madjid -----Original Message----- From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:41 PM To: Bernard Aboba Cc: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; aboba@internaut.com; eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Bernard Aboba wrote: > I would like to point out one other consequence of preventing lower=20 > layers (including AAA) from accessing the EMSK. It appears to me that > this severely restricts implementation of a key cache on the AAA server. > > 1. We've talked about deletion of transported keys from the AAA=20 > server. So if an MSK (or AMSK) is calculated within the AAA layer and > subsequently transported, that key is destroyed and cannot be cached. From what I can recall, our earlier discussions about this focused on the MSK. I'm not sure the same should apply on AMSKs, particularly when we haven't defined what they are used for. > 2. We've talked about how the EMSK cannot be passed down to the lower=20 > layer (including AAA). Therefore the EMSK also cannot be cached by=20 > the AAA layer. This I still think should apply. > > 3. Given 1) and 2) what keys *can* be cached in the AAA layer? =20 > Limited answers appear to be available. Caching of MSKs does not make > much sense, even if they are not transported in a particular=20 > application, because some applications *do* transport MSKs. > > It would be possible for the AAA layer to request more than one AMSK,=20 > then cache the AMSKs that are not transported. > > However, this approach does not appear to enable implementation of=20 > schemes such as "Key Request" and "Pre-emptive Key Distribution", both > of which appear to require the AAA layer to calculate AMSKs *on demand*. > > To be able to do this, it would seem like the AAA server would need to > have access to the EMSK -- since the EAP layer doesn't cache EMSKs,=20 > how else could AMSKs be calculated once EAP authentication completes? > In the case of roaming systems it is not feasible to ask the EAP layer > to calculate every conceivable AMSK that could be useful -- there=20 > could be thousands of them. I think the answer lies in where the hierarchy is split. I still believe EAP server should hold to EMSK and calculate AMSKs on demand. But it seems possible to hand keys to lower layers (e.g. AAA server side logic) that are themselves branching of to number of subkeys. E.g. "the master handoff key for session xyz". The entity holding such an AMSK can then branch it to, e.g., "the i:th handoff key for NAS abc". There's a lot of room to do various designs, including proxy, AAA-server etc. based caching. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From bobbybblg@maboriginals.com Wed Nov 02 17:28:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXR6G-0003rw-QB for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 17:28:56 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11962 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 17:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [82.201.221.103] (helo=82.201.221.103) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EXRKr-0001hJ-7X for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 17:44:06 -0500 Received: from smtp.secureserver.net by 82.201.221.103 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5274EAD1 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:36:46 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO rowrmoiiil) (154.202.120.12) by smtp.secureserver.net with SMTP id r1MipduIk4iM for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:36:46 -0500 Reply-To: "Ivy Wilkes" From: "Ivy" Message-ID: <1403095941.20051102163646@rowrmoiiil> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:36:46 -0500 To: Subject: Microsoft Special Deals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Save about: 80-85% MS Windows 2003 Enterprise Server $69.95 Adobe After Effects V 6.5 Professional PC $49.95 Autodesk Mechanical Desktop 2004 $99.95 Macromedia Director MX v9.0 $49.95 http://doesoft.net Quality, service, cleanliness, and value. 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------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C5DFD3.30D0A200-- From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 18:30:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXS3d-0007SV-IZ for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:30:19 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15247 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A469320741; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:30:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B072071F; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:30:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2277720709; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:29:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04F81FC9C for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:29:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA2NfKeX011163 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:41:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA2NbTGB026617 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 17:37:29 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server Thread-Index: AcXfGW1LuLtnrYHeQ2+WO2Sg4hXrQQA6vifg From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Bernard Aboba" , , X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:28:30 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 -----Original Message----- From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 1:21 PM To: david@mitton.com; eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server >1) EIK | PMK =3Dtruncate (MSK, 320) >2) PMK2=3D truncate (MSK, 160) Both of these definitions imply that the PMK is a truncated version of the=20 MSK. Perhaps we can just point that out, and reference 802.11 and 802.16e.=20 There really is not much need to say anything more than that. Madjid>> My point exactly, except even that is may be too much. What if it was not a truncation? PMK creation, is really a lower layer issue. >[Joe] The choice of AAA-Key term in the EAP RFC was unfortunate, it=20 >think it would have been better if we stuck just with the MSK. Yes. The term "AAA-Key" has been the source of much confusion. It took=20 quite a while, but at this point, the term is only used once in the EAP Keying Framework (in the terminology seciton). Madjid>> Ok, if you say so. But it is still heavily used in 3748 and in extension drafts=20 "AAA-Key-B =3D prf(AMSK(0,63),"EAP AAA-Key derivation for multiple attachments", AAA-Key, B-Called-Station-Id, Calling-Station-Id,length)" >Existing lower layers already use the MSK directly so I don't think=20 >defining AMSKs derived from this quantity is appropriate in this=20 >document. Right. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 18:39:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXSCL-0003nn-Ve for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:39:18 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15726 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83F9020748; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E1B20742; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:39:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4100320740; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D902071F for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr03.mot.com ([10.64.251.233]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA2Np2Jl012181 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:51:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA2NmTc8014614 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 17:48:30 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXfKDP+gwLCYnPVTl+OGvvWSeRgggA3YS5A From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Bernard Aboba" , "Jari Arkko" Cc: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:38:10 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am not sure I understand this security model, if we are not trusting EAP server or AAA server with not sniffing TSK derivation, or we have issues with the server knowing the TSKs, how could we trust it to actually go ahead and delete the keys??=20 What kind of security model is it that instead of hiding a secret to begin with, ask the untrusted party to create it first and then delete it really quickly?? Now all that aside, are we saying have an AMSK generated from EMSK, and then pass AMSK down to the AAA server and then derive all application keys from AMSK?=20 Can the AAA server still keep the AMSK? What about the application keys? Can it keep them even after sending them away, or the same security philosophy applies here? -----Original Message----- From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 3:07 PM To: Jari Arkko Cc: Bernard Aboba; Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? > From what I can recall, our earlier discussions about this focused on=20 > the MSK. I'm not sure the same should apply on AMSKs, particularly=20 > when we haven't defined what they are used for. The principle is a general one -- if a key that is transported is to be used for derivation of TSKs that are only to be known to the EAP peer and authenticator, then that same key cannot also continue to be held by the EAP server, or the fundamental security assumption is no longer valid. =20 As an example, the Secure Association Protocol relies on mutual proof of possession of keying material to enable the EAP peer and authenticator to determine that they are mutually authorized. If the keying material used for proof could also possessed by other parties then mutual authorization is not demonstrated -- the EAP peer could be talking to the AAA server or a proxy instead of the EAP authenticator. =20 In this situation, the security model of EAP falls apart -- the EAP peer and authenticator no longer demonstrate authorization; the keys are not uniquely held; Channel Bindings are subject to forgery; the scope of transported keys and TSKs is undefined. About the only thing that can still be asserted about the exchange is that the TSKs are fresh -- although it's questionable how valuable this is if the other properties are absent.=20 > But it seems possible to hand keys to lower layers (e.g. AAA server=20 > side logic) that are themselves branching of to number of subkeys. > E.g. "the master handoff key for session xyz". The entity holding such > an AMSK can then branch it to, e.g., "the i:th handoff key for NAS=20 > abc". There's a lot of room to do various designs, including proxy,=20 > AAA-server etc. based caching. Right. I think this solves the problem.=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 19:51:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXTK5-0004pk-9r for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 19:51:21 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA18978 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:50:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A622075A; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:51:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0791D20753; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:51:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD38F2074F; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 259892074C for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.160.134]) by inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id jA30oZbf001469; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:50:35 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp id jA30oZmc016733; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:50:35 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.192.124] by tsb-wall.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id KAA16731 ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:50:35 +0900 Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id jA30oYES007345; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:50:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpoa.po.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id jA30oYM9021600; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:50:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead ([172.30.24.104]) by mail.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 (built Apr 28 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IPC00GTIT04YF10@mail.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:50:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EXTID-0001Lo-Ua; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 16:49:25 -0800 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? In-reply-to: To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Jari Arkko , Bernard Aboba , aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20051103004925.GW2367@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline References: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 19:49:25 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) What protocol do we assume for transporting an application-specific key from the entity that implements KDF (Key Derivation Function) to application-specific entities? I think we don't always assume a AAA protocol for this transport, Kerberos could be used for example and in that case no key needs to be cached in the AAA server/proxy/client once the generic AMSK is passed to the entity that implements KDF. Regards, Yoshihiro Ohba On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 04:20:26PM -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: > Hi Jari, > > Ok, if people feel strongly about not exporting the EMSK to the lower > layer. Then it would seem that a generic AMSK needs to be generated and > passed down to the lower layer (AAA server). The AAA server then should > be able keep the AMSK and to generate other application-specific keys > from the AMSK. > Furthermore, it should be possible for the AAA server to not to delete > every key it has transported to the pass-through authenticator > > Madjid > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net] > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:41 PM > To: Bernard Aboba > Cc: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; aboba@internaut.com; eap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? > > Bernard Aboba wrote: > > > I would like to point out one other consequence of preventing lower > > layers (including AAA) from accessing the EMSK. It appears to me that > > > this severely restricts implementation of a key cache on the AAA > server. > > > > 1. We've talked about deletion of transported keys from the AAA > > server. So if an MSK (or AMSK) is calculated within the AAA layer and > > > subsequently transported, that key is destroyed and cannot be cached. > > From what I can recall, our earlier discussions about this focused on > the MSK. I'm not sure the same should apply on AMSKs, particularly when > we haven't defined what they are used for. > > > 2. We've talked about how the EMSK cannot be passed down to the lower > > layer (including AAA). Therefore the EMSK also cannot be cached by > > the AAA layer. > > This I still think should apply. > > > > > 3. Given 1) and 2) what keys *can* be cached in the AAA layer? > > Limited answers appear to be available. Caching of MSKs does not make > > > much sense, even if they are not transported in a particular > > application, because some applications *do* transport MSKs. > > > > It would be possible for the AAA layer to request more than one AMSK, > > then cache the AMSKs that are not transported. > > > > However, this approach does not appear to enable implementation of > > schemes such as "Key Request" and "Pre-emptive Key Distribution", both > > > of which appear to require the AAA layer to calculate AMSKs *on > demand*. > > > > To be able to do this, it would seem like the AAA server would need to > > > have access to the EMSK -- since the EAP layer doesn't cache EMSKs, > > how else could AMSKs be calculated once EAP authentication completes? > > In the case of roaming systems it is not feasible to ask the EAP layer > > > to calculate every conceivable AMSK that could be useful -- there > > could be thousands of them. > > I think the answer lies in where the hierarchy is split. I still believe > EAP server should hold to EMSK and calculate AMSKs on demand. > But it seems possible to hand keys to lower layers (e.g. AAA server side > logic) that are themselves branching of to number of subkeys. > E.g. "the master handoff key for session xyz". The entity holding such > an AMSK can then branch it to, e.g., "the i:th handoff key for NAS abc". > There's a lot of room to do various designs, including proxy, AAA-server > etc. based caching. > > --Jari > > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From --enable-postfix@mail.frascone.com Wed Nov 02 21:11:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXUZS-0002II-9p for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 21:11:18 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA24009 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:10:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D36C20769; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E490720762; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:11:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5EDB20761; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:10:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp111.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com (smtp111.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.198.210]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 263D120760 for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:10:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6718 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2005 02:10:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO adithya) (mohanp@sbcglobal.net@67.123.81.122 with login) by smtp111.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2005 02:10:13 -0000 Message-ID: <004301c5e01b$bcf72720$6501a8c0@adithya> From: "Mohan Parthasarathy" To: "Bernard Aboba" , References: Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:10:18 -0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard, > >From what I can recall, our earlier discussions about this focused on > >the MSK. I'm not sure the same should apply on AMSKs, particularly > >when we haven't defined what they are used for. > > The principle is a general one -- if a key that is transported is to be > used for derivation of TSKs that are only to be known to the EAP peer and > authenticator who need to be able to mutually authorize each other, then > that same key cannot also continue to be held by the AAA server. If the > AAA server continues to hold the key, then the TSKs will also be known by > the AAA server; also, the peer cannot know whether the entity proving > possession of keying material is the EAP authenticator, or an imposter such > as the AAA server. > > As an example, the Secure Association Protocol relies on mutual proof of > possession of keying material to enable the EAP peer and authenticator to > determine that they are mutually authorized. If the keying material used > for proof could also possessed by other parties then mutual > authorization is not demonstrated -- the EAP peer could be talking > to the AAA server or a proxy instead of the EAP authenticator. > > As a result, without key deletion, the EAP peer and authenticator no longer > demonstrate authorization; neither the transported keys nor the derived TSKs > are uniquely held; the scope of I am missing one thing here. Even if we specify that the keys SHOULD be deleted after it is transported, how do you prevent a mis-behaving AAA server that does not follow this. In other words, if there are mis-behaving/erroneous AAA servers out there, there is no way the peer can find out. Does this mean the peer can never be sure who he is talking to ? -mohan > transported keys and TSKs is undefined; even Channel Bindings become open to > forgery. About the only thing that can still be asserted about the exchange > is that the TSKs are fresh -- although it's questionable how valuable this > is if the other properties are absent. > > >But it seems possible to hand keys to lower layers (e.g. AAA server > >side logic) that are themselves branching of to number of subkeys. > >E.g. "the master handoff key for session xyz". The entity holding > >such an AMSK can then branch it to, e.g., "the i:th handoff key > >for NAS abc". There's a lot of room to do various designs, including > >proxy, AAA-server etc. based caching. > > Right. I think this solves the problem. > > > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Thu Nov 03 00:44:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXXtN-0006RR-Ia for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 00:44:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07613 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 904D62077E; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:44:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f32.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.42]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B472077C for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:43:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:43:38 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 05:43:37 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.54.42.192] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <20051103004925.GW2367@steelhead> From: "Bernard Aboba" To: yohba@tari.toshiba.com, Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net, aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2005 05:43:38.0212 (UTC) FILETIME=[89F37A40:01C5E039] Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 21:43:37 -0800 >Furthermore, it should be possible for the AAA server to not to delete >every key it has transported to the pass-through authenticator All existing AAA servers delete transported keys today -- and the "proof of security" required for EAP rests on this assumption. The goal of AAA key management is to derive keys known to be fresh that are available only to mutually authenticated parties with a "need to know". By deleting transported keys, the AAA server guarantees that it can never resend that same key. The EAP authenticator does not really have much of a mechanism for knowing that the transported keys are fresh -- the Session-ID only allows it to guarantee against stale keys for the lifetime of the key cache. However, deleting the transported keys on the AAA server means that the only way an EAP authenticator can receive a stale key is for the Session-ID to repeat, which is unlikely unless both the EAP peer and server have broken random number generators. Also by deleting the transported keys, the EAP authenticator and peer can derive other keys (the TSKs) known only to those parties and not to the AAA server. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Thu Nov 03 00:49:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXXyF-0000uW-T0 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 00:49:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07814 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:48:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E57820782; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:49:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f29.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.39]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35CD2077E for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:49:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 21:49:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 05:48:59 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.54.42.192] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <004301c5e01b$bcf72720$6501a8c0@adithya> From: "Bernard Aboba" To: mohanp@sbcglobal.net, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2005 05:49:00.0081 (UTC) FILETIME=[49CCCA10:01C5E03A] Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 21:48:59 -0800 >I am missing one thing here. Even if we specify that the keys SHOULD be >deleted >after it is transported, how do you prevent a mis-behaving AAA server that >does >not follow this. In other words, if there are mis-behaving/erroneous AAA >servers >out there, there is no way the peer can find out. Does this mean the peer >can >never be sure who he is talking to ? Actually, the peer does have a mechanism for determining whether keys have been spread beyond their intended scope. This is handled by the explicit identification of the parties involved in the key exchange, and by mutual authentication, and by the explicit binding of keys to their context (such as via Channel Bindings). For example, if the AAA server does not delete transported keys, and resends them to another NAS, if the NAS is properly identified in the SAP exchange, then the peer can determine that it has access to keys that it is not authorized to possess. If the keys are bound to their context, then the peer can detect a binding mismatch. For example, on Yoshi's proposed "Channel Bindings" proposal, it is not possible for the AAA server to send the same key to multiple NASes and have the EAP peer successfully negotiate use of that key, because the key is bound only to the NAS that the EAP peer believes it should be communicating with. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Thu Nov 03 08:57:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXfaW-0000Xn-4H for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 08:57:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA02049 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:56:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E276E2045E; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:57:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from smtp2.int-evry.fr (smtp2.int-evry.fr [157.159.10.45]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30F61FC9D for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:56:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ipv6-3.int-evry.fr (ipv6-3.int-evry.fr [157.159.100.76]) by smtp2.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14C98042 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:56:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from jb by ipv6-3.int-evry.fr with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EXfXs-0003P0-Kx for eap@frascone.com; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:54:24 +0100 From: Julien Bournelle To: eap@frascone.com Message-ID: <20051103135424.GA13073@ipv6-3.int-evry.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-INT-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-INT-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jb@int-evry.fr Subject: [eap] AMSK for Mobile IPv6 Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:54:24 +0100 Hi, I read your threads but I'm not sure to have well understand all the ideas beyond EAP keying and specifically concerning the AMSK. I'd like to briefly explain why and how an ASMK could be interesting for Mobile IPv6. One assume that the Mobile Node has an EAP client for network authentication access. To use Mobile IPv6, the mobile node needs an Home Agent. The MN and HA needs a pre-shared key but the mobile node may not know the HA before using Mobile IPv6 (cf. bootstrapping problem). Thus one idea could be to use a AMSK or a derived key from AMSK for this purpose. The EAP peer and server derive MSK and EMSK. The AAA server requests to the EAP server an 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6'. A mobility management entity (not the EAP lower layer) on the mobile node requests locally the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' to the EAP layer. Then, if we want that the mobile node shares a key with the HA, this implies that the HA requests a key to the AAA server. MN <------> HA <-------> AAA So we'll need exchange between MN and HA and between HA and AAA. I stay vague here. But one can imagine that the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' is used by the MN to authenticate himself to the AAA. This pre-shared key will be derived at MN and AAA from the "AMSK for Mobile IPv6" and then transported from the AAA to the HA. SO the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' is cached on the AAA server and MN but not transported. The key derived for MN-HA is deleted on the AAA and transported to the HA. Does such a mechanism seem correct respective to EAP keying framework ? Thanks, regards, -- julien.bournelle at int-evry.fr _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From cwhhrfo@mail15.com Thu Nov 03 11:19:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXhnu-00068P-JQ; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:19:06 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10023; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:18:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EXi2b-000177-W9; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:34:23 -0500 Received: from 203-133-27-129.user.giga.net.tw ([203.133.27.129]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EXhnd-0006Te-VZ; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:18:50 -0500 Received: from quiz.wi1.bucksch.org (pD108D2D1.dip.t-dialin.net [202.0.148.101]) by confine.beonex.com with ESMTP id 288B9C0503B for ; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:13:33 -0700 Message-Id: <9387131508.8314687@ow.himalaya.uri.edu> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:14:33 -0600 From: " Alston" To: asrg@ietf.org, imrg-web-archive@ietf.org, mip6@ietf.org, iptel@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, iesg-secretary@ietf.org, trigtran@ietf.org Subject: Perly White Smile-t X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Want a Perly White Smile.? whiter teeth in just two weeks http://go2zexperts.info Want a professional quality teeth whitening, But Dentists charges in excess of $300 for this product. 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From eap-admin@frascone.com Thu Nov 03 13:16:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXjd8-0006ro-Sz for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 13:16:06 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18161 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0595520783; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:16:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from web80605.mail.yahoo.com (web80605.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.79.94]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id ECA7B2044D for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 48006 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Nov 2005 18:15:35 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=z6WXSijaxMuPJQCalFeHSSaccZhvKZ8ZY/H3he66tJyxhhnePWEg3oO/IWhp6pU71wpOa391IIXtdq6UVVdsjZYoz3T0PS/Q0JQp8aIMqGqX2uH4M5fz6NWA4wNqomCJxylPdTPMHN46tfiMRdB86fz2Gj4NahJjfYgohNiDQLs= ; Message-ID: <20051103181535.48004.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.132.194.2] by web80605.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 10:15:34 PST From: Mohan Parthasarathy Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? To: Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:15:34 -0800 (PST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Bernard Aboba wrote: > >I am missing one thing here. Even if we specify > that the keys SHOULD be > >deleted > >after it is transported, how do you prevent a > mis-behaving AAA server that > >does > >not follow this. In other words, if there are > mis-behaving/erroneous AAA > >servers > >out there, there is no way the peer can find out. > Does this mean the peer > >can > >never be sure who he is talking to ? > > Actually, the peer does have a mechanism for > determining whether keys have > been spread beyond their intended scope. This is > handled by the explicit > identification of the parties involved in the key > exchange, and by mutual > authentication, and by the explicit binding of keys > to their context (such > as via Channel Bindings). > Sure, but we are talking about the AAA server and the authenticator involved in the exchange. We can find whether the key has been spread to other authenticators. But can the peer tell the difference between the authenticator and the AAA server ? Does it matter ? In your other response you said: > Also by deleting the transported >keys, the EAP authenticator and peer can derive other >keys (the TSKs) >known >only to those parties and not to the AAA server AAA server cannot derive TSKs even if it did not delete the transported key because the secure association protocol exchange involves other parameters e.g. nonce, in the exchange that is known just to the authenticator and the peer. So, what useful attack can the AAA server (which the peer has a trust relationship with) do by holding on to the transported key ? Even if it holds on to it (erroneous or deliberate), but can never derive any keys that will be used in the commuication between the authenticator and the peer, would it not be okay ? I understand that from security point of view, it makes no sense for three parties hold on to the same key. But here the AAA server cannot do much with it i guess. At least, it cannot send it to other NASes as the peer can find it out as you have explained below. Are there any other attacks we are concerned about ? -mohan > For example, if the AAA server does not delete > transported keys, and resends > them to another NAS, if the NAS is properly > identified in the SAP exchange, > then the peer can determine that it has access to > keys that it is not > authorized to possess. If the keys are bound to > their context, then the > peer can detect a binding mismatch. > > For example, on Yoshi's proposed "Channel Bindings" > proposal, it is not > possible for the AAA server to send the same key to > multiple NASes and have > the EAP peer successfully negotiate use of that key, > because the key is > bound only to the NAS that the EAP peer believes it > should be communicating > with. > > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Thu Nov 03 13:31:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXjrh-0003J2-FE for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 13:31:09 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18971 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:30:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E209720788; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:31:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from mail.flarion.com (mail.flarion.com [63.103.94.23]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6553720783 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:30:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ftmailserver.flariontech.com ([10.10.1.140]) by mail.flarion.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:30:11 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXgoqgq4C90KUfLRhO5yPSLgmMkiAAAVW/w From: "Vanderveen, Michaela" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2005 18:30:11.0218 (UTC) FILETIME=[9FEB3F20:01C5E0A4] Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:30:09 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Also by deleting the transported=20 >keys, the EAP authenticator and peer can derive other >keys (the TSKs)=20 >known=20 >only to those parties and not to the AAA server AAA server cannot derive TSKs even if it did not delete the transported key because the secure association protocol exchange involves other parameters e.g. nonce, in the exchange that is known just to the authenticator and the peer. MCV>> The nonces are often sent over a wireless link, so open for anyone (including a devious AAA server) to listen to.=20 So, what useful attack can the AAA server (which the peer has a trust relationship with) do by holding on to the transported key ? Even if it holds on to it (erroneous or deliberate), but can never derive any keys that will be used in the commuication between the authenticator and the peer, would it not be okay ? I understand that from security point of view, it makes no sense for three parties hold on to the same key. But here the AAA server cannot do much with it i guess. At least, it cannot send it to other NASes as the peer can find it out as you have explained below. Are there any other attacks we are concerned about ?=20 MCV>> I don't think there is any useful attack here. I find it odd that the AAA server is trusted and then all of a sudden (once keys get derived) becomes "suspicious". The problem seems to be one of "access" i.e. need-to-know basis. If the AAA server was truly trusted, then if it did not need to know the transported key, then it would be ok to keep the key from it. But since it already knows it, it doesn't make sense to=20 enforce that it deletes this key. -mohan > For example, if the AAA server does not delete > transported keys, and resends=20 > them to another NAS, if the NAS is properly > identified in the SAP exchange,=20 > then the peer can determine that it has access to > keys that it is not=20 > authorized to possess. If the keys are bound to > their context, then the=20 > peer can detect a binding mismatch. >=20 > For example, on Yoshi's proposed "Channel Bindings" > proposal, it is not=20 > possible for the AAA server to send the same key to > multiple NASes and have=20 > the EAP peer successfully negotiate use of that key, > because the key is=20 > bound only to the NAS that the EAP peer believes it > should be communicating=20 > with. >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole = use of the intended recipient. Any review or distribution by others is = strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient please contact the = sender and delete all copies. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From KatherineBabb@5indextrade.com Thu Nov 03 15:27:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXlgc-0001lW-Ki for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:27:51 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA24746 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:27:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc-46-223-239-201.cm.vtr.net ([201.239.223.46]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EXlvJ-0003Cl-0v for eap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:43:12 -0500 Received: from IRzB@localhost by duF.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Fri, 04 Nov 2005 01:23:50 +0500 Message-ID: From: "Randi Kraft" Reply-To: "Randi Kraft" To: eap-archive@ietf.org, earch-funding@ietf.org Subject: All Photoshop software for cheap Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 13:25:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: KatherineBabb@5indextrade.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--iS5f4iTuXE5LEAKwOyl" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 155726d2f5fe5eb5c40a9f079fd9e841 77Nz ----iS5f4iTuXE5LEAKwOyl Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable m
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----iS5f4iTuXE5LEAKwOyl-- From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 03 17:04:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXnC3-0008Tf-Co for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:04:25 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA29288 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:03:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59217204E4; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:04:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7082046D for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:03:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from il06exr02.mot.com (il06exr02.mot.com [129.188.137.132]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA3MFulu027860 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:15:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA3MCfsw004136 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:12:41 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXgEKA/vL+rg0RRRL+hSC7n0+oJAQAsG7gg From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Yoshihiro Ohba" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , "Bernard Aboba" , , Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:02:59 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I tend to think of AAA protocol as a horizontal protocol (i.e. between AAA server and AAA client) and that is btw why I have problem with the word export. The only reason I am striving for a clarity between EAP server and AAA server is to have a spec that always further use of the keys generated by a heavy EAP-XXX authentication. So I am saying if EAP server has throws the keys away to not overload itself, fine lets AAA server handle the authorization and key management issues for "at-the time of EAP-unknown" applications. I was not necessary advocating for a physical separation of the EAP and AAA server. Given I tend to read the specs as if AAA layer is a layer below the EAP layer (I Know Joe does not agree with this), I think this is a vertical layer separation, so you can't use a AAA protocol here. I do think that this "API" may need to be defined.=20 All that being said, I think the AAA servers of today or immediate future have the capability of doing key generation as long as a initial key with good entropy is provided to them by an EAP method, so even if there is a KDF, I tend to think it is "co-located" with AAA server. I am not sure how adding a KDF helps the problem I am trying to solve: I am saying somebody needs to create keys and not throw them away after it is transported, not sure how KDF versus AAA server separation helps that cause. Madjid -----Original Message----- From: Yoshihiro Ohba [mailto:yohba@tari.toshiba.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 6:49 PM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Jari Arkko; Bernard Aboba; aboba@internaut.com; eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? What protocol do we assume for transporting an application-specific key from the entity that implements KDF (Key Derivation Function) to application-specific entities? I think we don't always assume a AAA protocol for this transport, Kerberos could be used for example and in that case no key needs to be cached in the AAA server/proxy/client once the generic AMSK is passed to the entity that implements KDF. Regards, Yoshihiro Ohba On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 04:20:26PM -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: > Hi Jari, >=20 > Ok, if people feel strongly about not exporting the EMSK to the lower=20 > layer. Then it would seem that a generic AMSK needs to be generated=20 > and passed down to the lower layer (AAA server). The AAA server then=20 > should be able keep the AMSK and to generate other=20 > application-specific keys from the AMSK. > Furthermore, it should be possible for the AAA server to not to delete > every key it has transported to the pass-through authenticator >=20 > Madjid >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net] > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:41 PM > To: Bernard Aboba > Cc: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; aboba@internaut.com; eap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? >=20 > Bernard Aboba wrote: >=20 > > I would like to point out one other consequence of preventing lower=20 > > layers (including AAA) from accessing the EMSK. It appears to me=20 > > that >=20 > > this severely restricts implementation of a key cache on the AAA > server. > > > > 1. We've talked about deletion of transported keys from the AAA=20 > > server. So if an MSK (or AMSK) is calculated within the AAA layer=20 > > and >=20 > > subsequently transported, that key is destroyed and cannot be cached. >=20 > From what I can recall, our earlier discussions about this focused on > the MSK. I'm not sure the same should apply on AMSKs, particularly=20 > when we haven't defined what they are used for. >=20 > > 2. We've talked about how the EMSK cannot be passed down to the=20 > > lower layer (including AAA). Therefore the EMSK also cannot be=20 > > cached by the AAA layer. >=20 > This I still think should apply. >=20 > > > > 3. Given 1) and 2) what keys *can* be cached in the AAA layer? =20 > > Limited answers appear to be available. Caching of MSKs does not=20 > > make >=20 > > much sense, even if they are not transported in a particular=20 > > application, because some applications *do* transport MSKs. > > > > It would be possible for the AAA layer to request more than one=20 > > AMSK, then cache the AMSKs that are not transported. > > > > However, this approach does not appear to enable implementation of=20 > > schemes such as "Key Request" and "Pre-emptive Key Distribution",=20 > > both >=20 > > of which appear to require the AAA layer to calculate AMSKs *on > demand*. > > > > To be able to do this, it would seem like the AAA server would need=20 > > to >=20 > > have access to the EMSK -- since the EAP layer doesn't cache EMSKs,=20 > > how else could AMSKs be calculated once EAP authentication completes? > > In the case of roaming systems it is not feasible to ask the EAP=20 > > layer >=20 > > to calculate every conceivable AMSK that could be useful -- there=20 > > could be thousands of them. >=20 > I think the answer lies in where the hierarchy is split. I still=20 > believe EAP server should hold to EMSK and calculate AMSKs on demand. > But it seems possible to hand keys to lower layers (e.g. AAA server=20 > side > logic) that are themselves branching of to number of subkeys. > E.g. "the master handoff key for session xyz". The entity holding such > an AMSK can then branch it to, e.g., "the i:th handoff key for NAS abc". > There's a lot of room to do various designs, including proxy,=20 > AAA-server etc. based caching. >=20 > --Jari >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 03 17:32:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXncw-0001Am-43 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:32:10 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA02177 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:31:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C253A2078D; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:32:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2FC3204F2 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:31:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA3MhgXW001787 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:43:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA3Mflh3026111 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:41:47 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXf1ilUNx0D1lkvTzS8NtZS78yjaQA7GZjg From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Bernard Aboba" , , Cc: , Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:30:45 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:bernard_aboba@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:52 AM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; jsalowey@cisco.com; aboba@internaut.com Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net; eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? >[Joe] I don't think we have said that the AMSK must be deleted or=20 >cannot be cached. It should be the contrary, the AMSK is a quantity=20 >that an application such as AAA can use for the purpose it has defined. Agreed. Madjid2>> Say, I need two keys for two authenticators, do I create a K1 and K2 from AMSK at the AAA layer? If yes, then do I have to delete K1 after sending it to authenticator 1? If no, and K1 and K2 are considered AMSK1 and AMSK2, do I have to send a request for two keys to EAP server, before it deletes the EMSK? On the top of all this,last time I looked at extensions draft, definition of AMSK includes both EMSK and AAA key,=20 >Madjid>> AAA can _use_? How about create and keep? The AAA layer cannot create an AMSK because it does not have access to the EMSK. So it can only receive an AMSK. Madjid2>> See previous question, please >[Joe] This depends on how you define your key hierarchy. If you derive >your keys directly from the EMSK you have a problem. If you define=20 >your keys from an AMSK derive for the purpose of pre-emptive key=20 >distribution then things work out a bit better. Right. This makes sense. Madjid2>> The word of "Pre-emptive" is dangerous here? Does it mean the AAA server pre-emptively asks for multiple AMSKs from EMSK?=20 For Handover, this will not work, you have to anticipate all the moves...=20 >Madjid>>Are you saying we create our application specific keys out of >AMSK that is already called application master key? No. We are saying that the AMSK is used as the root of a lower layer key hierarchy. >Not sure what "rainy day" we are saving EMSK for? Why have so many key=20 >levels, does anybody care about the CPU and battery consumptions down=20 >at a tiny mobile device that may have to do all this? The EMSK is not cached, so there is no "rainy day" that it is being saved for -- it is used to calculate AMSKs passed to the lower layer and then is lost. Madjid2>> By "rainy day", I was referring to "for future use" in=20 "The EMSK is reserved for future use and MUST remain on the EAP peer and EAP server where it is derived;" In the 08 draft. And by the way this conflicts "deleting EMSK right away..." BTW, a concern about key hierarchy depth and handoff does not appear to be shared by the organizations that are designing those protocols. IEEE 802.11r, for example, had three layers of key hierarchy last time I looked. Madjid2>>Well, I am advocating for several layers as well, that is why I am asking for AMSK clarfications and delete requirements. May your latest look was later than mine and 11r is a happier family than WiMAX/16e:) but at least in WiMAX, nobody knew about the latest "delete key" requirements until very recently and that is why I started my review. I don't want to deal with a hierarchy that chops itself off prematurely.. >Madjid>> I gave 3 examples in my previous email. Are we now creating=20 >Madjid>> yet >another entity in the protocol? No other entities have been discussed so far. >What is a KDF in relation to EAP server and AAA server? KDF =3D Key Distribution Function. This is a cryptographic function = used to=20 calculate AMSKs. It is not an entity. Madjid2>> I think people have already started inserting a Kerberos into the mix, so KDF is more than a function ;) _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 03 17:48:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXnsP-0004ko-6s for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:48:09 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA02835 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9163920793; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:48:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate5.mot.com (motgate5.mot.com [144.189.100.105]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F912046D for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr01.mot.com (az33exr01.mot.com [10.64.251.231]) by motgate5.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate5) with ESMTP id jA3MtWGG021018 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:55:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA3MxwNc028872 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:59:59 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AMSK generation? Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue: AMSK generation? Thread-Index: AcXfFsCQTbDY+5scTRaWkimAgfbI7QAADXkQAC9TkgAAAE0/kAA8PEBQ From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Salowey, Joe" , "Bernard Aboba" , Cc: , Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:46:21 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Refreshing the subject to do something constructive with the thread. Before everybody wears out, lets look if we can work on the AMSK recipe :) Madjid [Joe] The AAA can keep the AMSK if that is what the application specifies to be done. Generating an AMSK from an EMSK is a more specialized function that needs to exist outside of AAA since EAP does not require AAA. Madjid2>>Outside AAA? Where? In EAP layer. Ok, lets see the latest definition of AMSK I have seen (in draft-Aboba-eap-keying-extens-00.txt) do not really give a clean separation of AMSK from MSK/EMSK. The authenticator keys are calculated from not just AMSK but also AAA-key.=20 AMSK =3D KDF(EMSK, "EAP AAA-Key derivation for multiple = attachments", length) AAA-Key-B =3D prf(AMSK(0,63),"EAP AAA-Key derivation for multiple attachments", AAA-Key, B-Called-Station-Id, Calling-Station-Id,length) AAA-Key-C =3D prf(AMSK(0,63),"EAP AAA-Key derivation for multiple attachments",AAA-Key, C-Called-Station-Id, Calling-Station-Id, length) We are stating, if a key is shipped to authenticator it must be deleted, so that means neither AMSK nor MSK can be shipped to authenticator, so they must stay at the AAA server, which means for every handover you HAVE to go to AAAs server. And also remember that Bernard said 802.11r and others have multiple layers of hierarchy. I like to think that it means the BS/ AP gets another key derived from AAA-key-B, so you called-station-ID cannot really be the BS/ AP id, but the authenticator ID. >=20 > [Joe] This depends on how you define your key hierarchy. If you=20 > derive your keys directly from the EMSK you have a problem. If you=20 > define your keys from an AMSK derive for the purpose of pre-emptive=20 > key distribution then things work out a bit better. >=20 > Madjid>>Are you saying we create our application specific keys out of > AMSK that is already called application master key? Not sure what=20 > "rainy day" we are saving EMSK for? Why have so many key levels, does=20 > anybody care about the CPU and battery consumptions down at a tiny=20 > mobile device that may have to do all this? >=20 [Joe] The EMSK is the root of a key hierarchy used only to generate AMSKs. This is to ensure that application keys are cryptographically separate from one another so that one application does not cause a compromise in another. If the EMSK is used by multiple applications this opens you up to a catastrophic compromise if one application has a problem.=20 Madjid>> Yes, but when you generate one AMSK and delete EMSK immediately, how do you delete further AMSKs? _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 03 18:07:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXoAk-0001AP-N4 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:07:06 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03569 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D70520797; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:07:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f19.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.29]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774CC2046D for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:06:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:06:24 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 23:06:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [131.107.0.74] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Bernard Aboba" To: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Issue: AMSK generation? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2005 23:06:24.0437 (UTC) FILETIME=[3653C650:01C5E0CB] Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:06:23 -0800 >The >authenticator keys are calculated from not just AMSK but also AAA-key. The terminology could use some cleaning up, but the idea is that the AAA layer uses an AMSK as the root of its key hierarchy, and creates additional keys from the AMSK. Specifically, in the formulas cited, the AAA server is creating cryptographically separate keys for use by authenticators to which the EAP peer might connect in the future. >We are stating, if a key is shipped to authenticator it must be deleted, >so that means neither AMSK nor MSK can be shipped to authenticator. The MSK could still be shipped to the original authenticator, I think. Since the EMSK and MSK are cryptographically separate, transporting the MSK does not compromise the EMSK or any AMSK derived from it. But it is true that the AMSK from which multiple keys are derived needs to be cached within the AAA layer and never transported, so that other keys can be calculated from it. >For every handover you HAVE to go to the AAA server To date, we have had proposals for "Key Request" and "Pre-emptive Keying" support. In "Key Request" the EAP peer contacts the AAA server, proves possession of the AMSK, and asks that a key derived from it be sent to an authenticator that it may potentially connect to. In "Pre-emptive Keying" the AAA server derives a key from the AMSK and sends it to the NAS without contacting the EAP peer. So in both cases, the AAA server is involved. The "Key Request" approach has the advantage that it is compatible with roaming scenarios, since the key distribution is controlled by the EAP peer, which has the best knowledge of potential roaming candidates. The "Pre-emptive Keying" approach only works in situations where the AAA server has developed knowledge of the network topology through experience; in practice this only works well in intra-domain scenarios. Also, in "Pre-emptive Keying" the EAP peer and AAA server only mutually authenticate during the initial EAP conversation. This implies that the AAA server may end up sending keys to authenticators which the EAP peer is unlikely to ever contact. >And also remember that Bernard said 802.11r and others have multiple >layers of hierarchy. I like to think that it means the BS/ AP gets >another key derived from AAA-key-B, so you called-station-ID cannot >really be the BS/ AP id, but the authenticator ID. Right. The issue is not really handover between BSSIDs, it's handover between authenticators. >Yes, but when you generate one AMSK and delete EMSK >immediately, how do you delete further AMSKs? It's possible to generate multiple AMSKs from a single EMSK. It's also possible to cache one AMSK, and transport another one. The AAA layer can create as many keys as it needs to from the cached AMSK. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 03 18:20:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXoNQ-0003uR-53 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:20:12 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA04066 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390DF20797; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:20:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from imx11.toshiba.co.jp (imx11.toshiba.co.jp [61.202.160.20]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D2052046D for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:19:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from wall11.toshiba.co.jp (wall11 [133.199.90.149]) by imx11.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id jA3NJHLH027480; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:19:17 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by wall11.toshiba.co.jp id jA3NJUmY020101; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:19:30 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp11.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.90.148] by wall11.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id JAA20051; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:19:30 +0900 Received: from mx2.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp11.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id jA3NJGP0029586; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:19:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpoa.po.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id jA3NJGU9026768; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 08:19:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead ([172.30.24.104]) by mail.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 (built Apr 28 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IPE00KVOJFYI3A0@mail.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:19:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EXoLf-0001qg-9O; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:18:23 -0800 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? In-reply-to: To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba , Jari Arkko , Bernard Aboba , aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20051103231823.GC6409@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline References: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:18:23 -0500 I think it makes sense to have the KDF in the AAA server only when (1) such an entity resides in the same domain as the AAA server and (2) use of the AAA protocol for distributing application-specific keys to application-specific entities is assumed. For other cases (i.e., bootstrapping applications in visiting domain or using non-AAA protocol for distributing application-specific keys), it might be good to put the KDF in a separate entity from the AAA server. Yoshihiro Ohba On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 05:02:59PM -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: > I tend to think of AAA protocol as a horizontal protocol (i.e. between > AAA server and AAA client) and that is btw why I have problem with the > word export. The only reason I am striving for a clarity between EAP > server and AAA server is to have a spec that always further use of the > keys generated by a heavy EAP-XXX authentication. So I am saying if EAP > server has throws the keys away to not overload itself, fine lets AAA > server handle the authorization and key management issues for "at-the > time of EAP-unknown" applications. I was not necessary advocating for a > physical separation of the EAP and AAA server. Given I tend to read the > specs as if AAA layer is a layer below the EAP layer (I Know Joe does > not agree with this), I think this is a vertical layer separation, so > you can't use a AAA protocol here. I do think that this "API" may need > to be defined. > All that being said, I think the AAA servers of today or immediate > future have the capability of doing key generation as long as a initial > key with good entropy is provided to them by an EAP method, so even if > there is a KDF, I tend to think it is "co-located" with AAA server. I am > not sure how adding a KDF helps the problem I am trying to solve: I am > saying somebody needs to create keys and not throw them away after it is > transported, not sure how KDF versus AAA server separation helps that > cause. > > Madjid > > -----Original Message----- > From: Yoshihiro Ohba [mailto:yohba@tari.toshiba.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 6:49 PM > To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 > Cc: Jari Arkko; Bernard Aboba; aboba@internaut.com; eap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? > > > What protocol do we assume for transporting an application-specific key > from the entity that implements KDF (Key Derivation Function) to > application-specific entities? I think we don't always assume a AAA > protocol for this transport, Kerberos could be used for example and in > that case no key needs to be cached in the AAA server/proxy/client once > the generic AMSK is passed to the entity that implements KDF. > > Regards, > > Yoshihiro Ohba > > On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 04:20:26PM -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 > wrote: > > Hi Jari, > > > > Ok, if people feel strongly about not exporting the EMSK to the lower > > layer. Then it would seem that a generic AMSK needs to be generated > > and passed down to the lower layer (AAA server). The AAA server then > > should be able keep the AMSK and to generate other > > application-specific keys from the AMSK. > > Furthermore, it should be possible for the AAA server to not to delete > > > every key it has transported to the pass-through authenticator > > > > Madjid > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:41 PM > > To: Bernard Aboba > > Cc: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; aboba@internaut.com; eap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? > > > > Bernard Aboba wrote: > > > > > I would like to point out one other consequence of preventing lower > > > layers (including AAA) from accessing the EMSK. It appears to me > > > that > > > > > this severely restricts implementation of a key cache on the AAA > > server. > > > > > > 1. We've talked about deletion of transported keys from the AAA > > > server. So if an MSK (or AMSK) is calculated within the AAA layer > > > and > > > > > subsequently transported, that key is destroyed and cannot be > cached. > > > > From what I can recall, our earlier discussions about this focused on > > > the MSK. I'm not sure the same should apply on AMSKs, particularly > > when we haven't defined what they are used for. > > > > > 2. We've talked about how the EMSK cannot be passed down to the > > > lower layer (including AAA). Therefore the EMSK also cannot be > > > cached by the AAA layer. > > > > This I still think should apply. > > > > > > > > 3. Given 1) and 2) what keys *can* be cached in the AAA layer? > > > Limited answers appear to be available. Caching of MSKs does not > > > make > > > > > much sense, even if they are not transported in a particular > > > application, because some applications *do* transport MSKs. > > > > > > It would be possible for the AAA layer to request more than one > > > AMSK, then cache the AMSKs that are not transported. > > > > > > However, this approach does not appear to enable implementation of > > > schemes such as "Key Request" and "Pre-emptive Key Distribution", > > > both > > > > > of which appear to require the AAA layer to calculate AMSKs *on > > demand*. > > > > > > To be able to do this, it would seem like the AAA server would need > > > to > > > > > have access to the EMSK -- since the EAP layer doesn't cache EMSKs, > > > how else could AMSKs be calculated once EAP authentication > completes? > > > In the case of roaming systems it is not feasible to ask the EAP > > > layer > > > > > to calculate every conceivable AMSK that could be useful -- there > > > could be thousands of them. > > > > I think the answer lies in where the hierarchy is split. I still > > believe EAP server should hold to EMSK and calculate AMSKs on demand. > > But it seems possible to hand keys to lower layers (e.g. AAA server > > side > > logic) that are themselves branching of to number of subkeys. > > E.g. "the master handoff key for session xyz". The entity holding such > > > an AMSK can then branch it to, e.g., "the i:th handoff key for NAS > abc". > > There's a lot of room to do various designs, including proxy, > > AAA-server etc. based caching. > > > > --Jari > > > > _______________________________________________ > > eap mailing list > > eap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > > > > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 03 19:19:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXpIQ-0000DF-6u for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:19:06 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA06614 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:18:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1749F2079A; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:19:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f2.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.12]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE3F2046D for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:18:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:18:16 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 00:18:16 GMT X-Originating-IP: [131.107.0.74] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <20051103231823.GC6409@steelhead> From: "Bernard Aboba" To: yohba@tari.toshiba.com, Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net, aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] RE: Issue: EMSK transported to other parties? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2005 00:18:16.0744 (UTC) FILETIME=[40A99A80:01C5E0D5] Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:18:16 -0800 >I think it makes sense to have the KDF in the AAA server only when (1) >such an entity resides in the same domain as the AAA server and (2) >use of the AAA protocol for distributing application-specific keys to >application-specific entities is assumed. For other cases (i.e., >bootstrapping applications in visiting domain or using non-AAA >protocol for distributing application-specific keys), it might be >good to put the KDF in a separate entity from the AAA server. How could an entity other than the EAP peer or server gain access to the EMSK in order to generate AMSKs? The EMSK cannot be transported, so only the EAP peer and server can have access to it. An entity must have access to the EMSK to apply a Key Distribution Function (KDF) to it in order to produce an AMSK. So therefore only the EAP peer and the EAP server can apply a KDF to the EMSK to produce AMSKs. Of course, a KDF is just a cryptographic function, not anything magic, so any entity (EAP peer, authenticator, server) can call the function. They just can't use the EMSK as an input to it. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 03 20:10:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXq5o-000499-Lz for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:10:09 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA10599 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7867D207A5; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:10:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from imx11.toshiba.co.jp (imx11.toshiba.co.jp [61.202.160.20]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C172046D for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:09:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from wall11.toshiba.co.jp (wall11 [133.199.90.149]) by imx11.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id jA419CSF013663; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:09:12 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by wall11.toshiba.co.jp id jA419OgU019129; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:09:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp11.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.90.148] by wall11.toshiba.co.jp with SMTP id LAA19116; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:09:24 +0900 Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp11.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id jA419APv025211; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:09:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbpoa.po.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id jA41995b021350; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 10:09:09 +0900 (JST) Received: from steelhead ([172.30.24.104]) by mail.po.toshiba.co.jp (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.1 (built Apr 28 2004)) with ESMTPSA id <0IPE00MZSOJ4SX00@mail.po.toshiba.co.jp>; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 10:09:09 +0900 (JST) Received: from ohba by steelhead with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EXpD2-0001t9-6N; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:13:32 -0800 From: Yoshihiro Ohba Subject: Re: [eap] RE: Issue: EMSK transported to other parties? In-reply-to: To: Bernard Aboba Cc: yohba@tari.toshiba.com, Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com, jari.arkko@piuha.net, aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Message-id: <20051104001332.GE6409@steelhead> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-disposition: inline References: <20051103231823.GC6409@steelhead> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:13:32 -0500 On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 04:18:16PM -0800, Bernard Aboba wrote: > >I think it makes sense to have the KDF in the AAA server only when (1) > >such an entity resides in the same domain as the AAA server and (2) > >use of the AAA protocol for distributing application-specific keys to > >application-specific entities is assumed. For other cases (i.e., > >bootstrapping applications in visiting domain or using non-AAA > >protocol for distributing application-specific keys), it might be > >good to put the KDF in a separate entity from the AAA server. > > How could an entity other than the EAP peer or server gain access to the > EMSK in order to generate AMSKs? The EMSK cannot be transported, so only > the EAP peer and server can have access to it. An entity must have access > to the EMSK to apply a Key Distribution Function (KDF) to it in order to > produce an AMSK. So therefore only the EAP peer and the EAP server can > apply a KDF to the EMSK to produce AMSKs. If we use generic AMSK to derive other AMSKs, the EAP server can derive the generic AMSK from the EMSK and give it to the entity providing KDF (and I think the generic AMSK should be cryptographically bound to the identity of the KDF entity which could be the AAA server or something else in general). Once it is done, the generic AMSK can be deleted from the EAP server and no entity needs to access the EMSK and the generic AMSK. Yoshihiro Ohba > > Of course, a KDF is just a cryptographic function, not anything magic, so > any entity (EAP peer, authenticator, server) can call the function. They > just can't use the EMSK as an input to it. > > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 03 20:46:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXqec-0003sN-NO for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:46:06 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA12678 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E1FE207A6; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:46:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f24.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.34]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901F12046D for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:45:41 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 01:45:40 GMT X-Originating-IP: [131.107.0.108] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com From: "Bernard Aboba" To: eap@frascone.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2005 01:45:41.0278 (UTC) FILETIME=[76A5FBE0:01C5E0E1] Subject: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:45:40 -0800 >MN <------> HA <-------> AAA >So we'll need exchange between MN and HA and between HA and AAA. Is an EAP exchange being run between the MN and AAA server, with the HA serving as the "EAP authenticator"? If so, the end result of this exchange is that the MN, HA and AAA server share a key. >The EAP peer and server derive MSK and EMSK. The >AAA server requests to the EAP server an 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6'. > >A mobility management entity (not the EAP lower layer) on the mobile >node requests locally the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' to the EAP layer. Assuming that the HA is acting as an "EAP authenticator" here, the end result of this is that the MN and the EAP server/AAA server now have mutually authenticated to each other and have derived an AMSK that they know is fresh, and which is known only to them. The HA and AAA server now mutually authenticate and derive a cryptographically secure channel. The AMSK is now transported to the HA, which can use it in a mutual proof of possession exchange with the MN. >Then, if we want that the mobile node shares a key with the HA, this >implies that the HA requests a key to the AAA server. Before the HA can request a key from the AAA server, it needs to prove that it is authorized to receive that key. Typically this requires that it mutually authenticate to the AAA server *and* include some "proof of liveness" from the EAP peer to show that the peer is actually interested in communicating with it. So a better way to think about this is that the HA is not really requesting a key -- it is the EAP peer that is requesting that the AAA Server send a key to that specific HA. If the EAP peer and AAA server share a trust relationship and are mutuall authenticated, and if the HA and AAA server are mutually authenticated, and if the key that is being requested is unambiguously specified (e.g. it is "named"), then the AAA server will authorize the request and transport the key to the HA. >I stay vague here. But one can imagine that the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' >is used by the MN to authenticate himself to the AAA. "Key Request" proposals typically require mutual authentication between the EAP peer and AAA server. For example, if the MN/peer had previously established a cached AMSK with the AAA server, it can subsequently prove possession of that AMSK, and ask that a key derived from that AMSK be sent to an HA that it specifies. This request needs to be "routed" through the HA itself, which mutually authenticates to the AAA server. This guarantees that the "Key Request" is authenticated, bound to the entities involved in the exchange, and can generate fresh keys (this part probably requires nonces to be exchanged by the parties). >This pre-shared key will be derived at MN and AAA from the "AMSK for >Mobile IPv6" and then transported from the AAA to the HA. If the key is dynamically derived it is not a pre-shared key. >SO the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' is cached on the AAA server and MN but >not transported. The key derived for MN-HA is deleted on the AAA and >transported to the HA. Right. >Does such a mechanism seem correct respective to EAP keying framework ? It seems compatible with the "Key Request" extension that has been discussed. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 03 21:43:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXrXo-0007ij-Ak for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 21:43:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA15113 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCD0207A6; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:43:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from exchange.bridgewatersys.com (bws14.bridgewatersystems.com [216.113.7.14]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5003F2046D for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:42:55 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 Thread-Index: AcXg4b6bgcbt4SVjQHijQ2Xh5ME/ngABnJAg From: "Avi Lior" To: "Bernard Aboba" , Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:43:38 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bernard,=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com=20 > [mailto:eap-admin@lists.frascone.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 8:46 PM > To: eap@frascone.com > Subject: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 >=20 > >MN <------> HA <-------> AAA >=20 > >So we'll need exchange between MN and HA and between HA and AAA. No. There is an EAP exchange between the MN and the AAA. So the call flow looks like this: MN NAS HA AAA Access Request (EAP) +++++++++---------------------> Normal EAP Authentication Access Accept (EAP Success + keys) +++++++++<--------------------- =20 MIPv6 Binding Update =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Access = Request ----------> Access Accept MIPv6 Binding Answer <---------- <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D As shown above we do normal EAP based access request.=20 The NAS is the authenticator. When that is completed, the MN performs a MIPv6 Binding Update. The HA receives the BU and because it doesn't know the MN it uses the NAI and consults with the AAA server. We would like to use the EAP keys or Keys derived from the EAP for the MIPv6 part. > Is an EAP exchange being run between the MN and AAA server,=20 > with the HA serving as the "EAP authenticator"? If so, the=20 > end result of this exchange is that the MN, HA and AAA server=20 > share a key. >=20 > >The EAP peer and server derive MSK and EMSK. The AAA server=20 > requests to=20 > >the EAP server an 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6'. > > > >A mobility management entity (not the EAP lower layer) on the mobile=20 > >node requests locally the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' to the EAP layer. >=20 > Assuming that the HA is acting as an "EAP authenticator"=20 > here, the end result of this is that the MN and the EAP=20 > server/AAA server now have mutually authenticated to each=20 > other and have derived an AMSK that they know=20 > is fresh, and which is known only to them. The HA and AAA=20 > server now=20 > mutually authenticate and derive a cryptographically secure=20 > channel. The AMSK is now transported to the HA, which can=20 > use it in a mutual proof of possession exchange with the MN. >=20 > >Then, if we want that the mobile node shares a key with the HA, this=20 > >implies that the HA requests a key to the AAA server. >=20 > Before the HA can request a key from the AAA server, it needs=20 > to prove that=20 > it is authorized to receive that key. Typically this=20 > requires that it=20 > mutually authenticate to the AAA server *and* include some=20 > "proof of liveness" from the EAP peer to show that the peer=20 > is actually interested in communicating with it. >=20 > So a better way to think about this is that the HA is not=20 > really requesting a key -- it is the EAP peer that is=20 > requesting that the AAA Server send a=20 > key to that specific HA. If the EAP peer and AAA server=20 > share a trust=20 > relationship and are mutuall authenticated, and if the HA and=20 > AAA server are mutually authenticated, and if the key that is=20 > being requested is unambiguously specified (e.g. it is=20 > "named"), then the AAA server will authorize the request and=20 > transport the key to the HA. >=20 > >I stay vague here. But one can imagine that the 'AMSK for=20 > Mobile IPv6' > >is used by the MN to authenticate himself to the AAA. >=20 > "Key Request" proposals typically require mutual=20 > authentication between the EAP peer and AAA server. For=20 > example, if the MN/peer had previously established a cached=20 > AMSK with the AAA server, it can subsequently prove=20 > possession of that AMSK, and ask that a key derived from that=20 > AMSK be sent=20 > to an HA that it specifies. This request needs to be=20 > "routed" through the=20 > HA itself, which mutually authenticates to the AAA server. =20 > This guarantees that the "Key Request" is authenticated,=20 > bound to the entities involved in the exchange, and can=20 > generate fresh keys (this part probably requires nonces to be=20 > exchanged by the parties). >=20 > >This pre-shared key will be derived at MN and AAA from the "AMSK for=20 > >Mobile IPv6" and then transported from the AAA to the HA. >=20 > If the key is dynamically derived it is not a pre-shared key. >=20 > >SO the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' is cached on the AAA server and MN but=20 > >not transported. The key derived for MN-HA is deleted on the AAA and=20 > >transported to the HA. >=20 > Right. >=20 > >Does such a mechanism seem correct respective to EAP keying=20 > framework ? >=20 > It seems compatible with the "Key Request" extension that has=20 > been discussed. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 03 22:38:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXsP7-0004Ee-Np for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 22:38:13 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA17660 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 22:37:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0614F207AA; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 22:38:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from exchange.bridgewatersys.com (bws14.bridgewatersystems.com [216.113.7.14]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57DE2046D for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 22:37:34 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5E0F1.48B0F2FF" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap-keying] issue EAP and authorization Thread-Index: AcXg8S0Pukcg836yRtaMMIQns2eRlQ== From: "Avi Lior" To: Subject: [eap] [eap-keying] issue EAP and authorization Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 22:38:09 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5E0F1.48B0F2FF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In draft-ietf-eap-keying-08.txt page 6: =20 "The EAP server also stores the peer's identity and/or other information necessary to decide whether access to some service should be granted. The peer stores information necessary to choose which secret to use for which service." =20 The issue i have is that the above seems to indicate that the EAP-Server is somehow involved in authorization. This is *hopefully" not true, and contradicts section 4.1 of the same draft. =20 Suggest re-write: =20 "The EAP server also stores the peer's identity and the peer stores information necessary to choose which secret to use for which service." =20 Note also that in the following paragraph the sentence is repeated again: =20 "If authentication is based on proof of possession of the private key corresponding to the public key contained within a certificate, the parties store the EAP method to be used and the trust anchors used to validate the certificates. The EAP server also stores the peer's identity and/or other information necessary to decide whether access to some service should be granted. The peer stores information necessary to choose which certificate to use for which service." =20 Suggested re-write: "If authentication is based on proof of possession of the private key corresponding to the public key contained within a certificate, the parties store the EAP method to be used and the trust anchors used to validate the certificates. The EAP server also stores the peer's identity and the peer stores information necessary to choose which certificate to use for which service." =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Avi Lior =20 Bridgewater Systems Corporation=20 Phone : +1 (613) 591-9104 x6417 Cell : +1 (613) 796-4183 E-mail : mailto:avi@bridgewatersystems.com =20 www.bridgewatersystems.com =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5E0F1.48B0F2FF Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In=20 draft-ietf-eap-keying-08.txt  page 6:
 
"The = EAP server=20 also
   stores the peer's identity and/or other information = necessary to
   decide whether access to some service = should be=20 granted.    The peer
   stores information = necessary to=20 choose which secret to use for which
  =20 service."
 
The = issue i have is=20 that the above seems to indicate that the EAP-Server is somehow involved = in=20 authorization.
This = is *hopefully"=20 not true, and contradicts section 4.1 of the same = draft.
 
Suggest=20 re-write:
 
"The = EAP server=20 also
   stores the peer's identity and the = peer
  =20 stores information necessary to choose which secret to use for=20 which
   service."
 
Note = also that in=20 the following paragraph the sentence is repeated = again:
 
"If = authentication=20 is based on proof of possession of the private key
   = corresponding=20 to the public key contained within a certificate, the
   = parties=20 store the EAP method to be used and the trust anchors used = to
  =20 validate the certificates.  The EAP server also stores the=20 peer's
   identity and/or other information necessary to = decide=20 whether access
   to some service should be granted.  = The peer=20 stores information
   necessary to choose which certificate = to use=20 for which service."
 
Suggested=20 re-write:
"If = authentication=20 is based on proof of possession of the private key
   = corresponding=20 to the public key contained within a certificate, the
   = parties=20 store the EAP method to be used and the trust anchors used = to
  =20 validate the certificates.  The EAP server also stores the=20 peer's
   identity and the peer stores = information
  =20 necessary to choose which certificate to use for which=20 service."
 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Avi=20 Lior          &nbs= p;            = ;            = =20
Bridgewater Systems Corporation
Phone :  +1 (613) 591-9104=20 x6417
Cell    :  +1 = (613) 796-4183
E-mail :=20 mailto:avi@bridgewatersystems.com
www.bridgewatersystems.com 

 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C5E0F1.48B0F2FF-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From ForrestSadler@fotooprema.com Thu Nov 03 23:54:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXtau-0006Cb-EZ for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 23:54:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA21442 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 23:54:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [61.16.175.51] (helo=freight-51-175-16-chn.freightsystems.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EXtpk-0000Me-Mq for eap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 00:09:54 -0500 Received: from 8Wge@localhost by JYV.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Fri, 04 Nov 2005 02:49:08 -0200 Message-ID: From: "Mark Dow" Reply-To: "Mark Dow" To: avt-archive@ietf.org, eamoby@ietf.org, vp@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Windows XP Pro $49.95 Windows Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 23:49:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: ForrestSadler@fotooprema.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--dmPs5m715JrQGPfv" X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: fe105289edd72640d9f392da880eefa2 51S ----dmPs5m715JrQGPfv Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Q
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mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20157207AC; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 03:29:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from dns1.tilab.com (dns1.tilab.com [163.162.42.4]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890DC207AA for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 03:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from iowa2k01a.cselt.it ([163.162.242.201]) by dns1.cselt.it (PMDF V6.0-025 #38895) with ESMTP id <0IPF00M8W8W7HM@dns1.cselt.it> for eap@frascone.com; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 09:28:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from EXC01B.cselt.it ([163.162.4.199]) by iowa2k01a.cselt.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 04 Nov 2005 09:28:55 +0100 From: Gerardo Giaretta Subject: RE: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 To: Avi Lior , Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.326 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Importance: normal Priority: normal Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 thread-index: AcXg4b6bgcbt4SVjQHijQ2Xh5ME/ngABnJAgAAuc85A= Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2005 08:28:55.0857 (UTC) FILETIME=[CBBDC210:01C5E119] Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 09:28:54 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Avi, Bernard, all=20 what we have been discussing in the MIP6 bootstrapping DT is slightly different. Please see my comments below.. > >=20 > > >MN <------> HA <-------> AAA > >=20 > > >So we'll need exchange between MN and HA and between HA and AAA. >=20 > No. There is an EAP exchange between the MN and the AAA. >=20 > So the call flow looks like this: >=20 > MN NAS HA AAA > Access Request (EAP) > +++++++++---------------------> Normal EAP > Authentication > Access Accept (EAP Success + keys) > +++++++++<--------------------- > =20 > MIPv6 Binding Update > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> = Access Request > ----------> > Access Accept > MIPv6 Binding Answer <---------- > <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > As shown above we do normal EAP based access request.=20 >=20 > The NAS is the authenticator. >=20 So far it is correct. > When that is completed, the MN performs a MIPv6 Binding Update. >=20 Before performing a MIPv6 BU, the MN must set up an IPsec SA with the HA.=20 In the DT we are thinking that an AMSK (or a key derived from the AMSK) may be used as the pre-shared key in the IKE_AUTH exchange between MN and HA. The AAA server should send this key to the HA before the MN gets in touch with the HA. As far as I understand from Bernard's comments, this is ok if the MN/EAP peer requests the AAA server to perform the key delivery and if HA and AAA server are mutually authenticated. Please correct me if I'm wrong. A different approach may be the following (pull approach): the MN starts IKE_AUTH with the AMSK as the pre-shared key. During IKEv2 exchange the HA requests the key to AAA server. If I understand correctly from Bernard comment, this is not possible based on EAP keying. > The HA receives the BU and because it doesn't know the MN it uses the > NAI and consults with the AAA server. >=20 This MAY be possible if mip6-auth option is used. If IPsec is used to authenticate BUs this is not correct. > We would like to use the EAP keys or Keys derived from the EAP for the > MIPv6 part. >=20 (DT leader hat on) Just a bit of history: in the bootstrapping DT we have addressed two scenarios, the split scenario and the integrated scenario. In the integrated scenario the entity that authenticates and authorizes the MN for network access service and the entity that authenticates and authorizes the MN for MIPv6 service are the same. This implies that the MIPv6 bootstrapping procedure may be optimized (e.g. in terms of round trips) if the outcome of the authentication for network access is used also for mobility service. The usage of an AMSK for MIPv6 is one possible approach to achieve that. Currently the DT has not produced any draft on this since we are waiting for a normative reference for AMSK and we would like having some feedback from EAP WG.=20 (DT leader hat off) An old draft (expired) about this is http://www-lor.int-evry.fr/~maknavic/DRAFT/draft-giaretta-mip6-amsk-00.t xt.=20 Thanks, --Gerardo=20 >=20 >=20 > > Is an EAP exchange being run between the MN and AAA server,=20 > > with the HA serving as the "EAP authenticator"? If so, the=20 > > end result of this exchange is that the MN, HA and AAA server=20 > > share a key. > >=20 > > >The EAP peer and server derive MSK and EMSK. The AAA server=20 > > requests to=20 > > >the EAP server an 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6'. > > > > > >A mobility management entity (not the EAP lower layer) on=20 > the mobile=20 > > >node requests locally the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' to the EAP layer. > >=20 > > Assuming that the HA is acting as an "EAP authenticator"=20 > > here, the end result of this is that the MN and the EAP=20 > > server/AAA server now have mutually authenticated to each=20 > > other and have derived an AMSK that they know=20 > > is fresh, and which is known only to them. The HA and AAA=20 > > server now=20 > > mutually authenticate and derive a cryptographically secure=20 > > channel. The AMSK is now transported to the HA, which can=20 > > use it in a mutual proof of possession exchange with the MN. > >=20 > > >Then, if we want that the mobile node shares a key with=20 > the HA, this=20 > > >implies that the HA requests a key to the AAA server. > >=20 > > Before the HA can request a key from the AAA server, it needs=20 > > to prove that=20 > > it is authorized to receive that key. Typically this=20 > > requires that it=20 > > mutually authenticate to the AAA server *and* include some=20 > > "proof of liveness" from the EAP peer to show that the peer=20 > > is actually interested in communicating with it. > >=20 > > So a better way to think about this is that the HA is not=20 > > really requesting a key -- it is the EAP peer that is=20 > > requesting that the AAA Server send a=20 > > key to that specific HA. If the EAP peer and AAA server=20 > > share a trust=20 > > relationship and are mutuall authenticated, and if the HA and=20 > > AAA server are mutually authenticated, and if the key that is=20 > > being requested is unambiguously specified (e.g. it is=20 > > "named"), then the AAA server will authorize the request and=20 > > transport the key to the HA. > >=20 > > >I stay vague here. But one can imagine that the 'AMSK for=20 > > Mobile IPv6' > > >is used by the MN to authenticate himself to the AAA. > >=20 > > "Key Request" proposals typically require mutual=20 > > authentication between the EAP peer and AAA server. For=20 > > example, if the MN/peer had previously established a cached=20 > > AMSK with the AAA server, it can subsequently prove=20 > > possession of that AMSK, and ask that a key derived from that=20 > > AMSK be sent=20 > > to an HA that it specifies. This request needs to be=20 > > "routed" through the=20 > > HA itself, which mutually authenticates to the AAA server. =20 > > This guarantees that the "Key Request" is authenticated,=20 > > bound to the entities involved in the exchange, and can=20 > > generate fresh keys (this part probably requires nonces to be=20 > > exchanged by the parties). > >=20 > > >This pre-shared key will be derived at MN and AAA from the=20 > "AMSK for=20 > > >Mobile IPv6" and then transported from the AAA to the HA. > >=20 > > If the key is dynamically derived it is not a pre-shared key. > >=20 > > >SO the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' is cached on the AAA server=20 > and MN but=20 > > >not transported. The key derived for MN-HA is deleted on=20 > the AAA and=20 > > >transported to the HA. > >=20 > > Right. > >=20 > > >Does such a mechanism seem correct respective to EAP keying=20 > > framework ? > >=20 > > It seems compatible with the "Key Request" extension that has=20 > > been discussed. > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > eap mailing list > > eap@lists.frascone.com > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 Gruppo Telecom Italia - Direzione e coordinamento di Telecom Italia = S.p.A. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you have any questions, please send an e_mail to=20 MailAdmin@tilab.com. Thank you =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Fri Nov 04 04:09:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EXxZO-00038i-OU for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 04:09:10 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA04278 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 04:08:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2079207AD; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 04:09:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from exchange.bridgewatersys.com (bws14.bridgewatersystems.com [216.113.7.14]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4421207AA for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 04:08:42 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 Thread-Index: AcXg4b6bgcbt4SVjQHijQ2Xh5ME/ngABnJAgAAuc85AAAOa1gA== From: "Avi Lior" To: "Gerardo Giaretta" , "Bernard Aboba" , Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 04:08:36 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gerardo and Bernard Please note (as Gerardo elludes to) that there are two ways to perform authentication of BU in MIPv6 one is using Ipsec and the other is using the BU authentication procedure defined in the draft-ietf-mip6-auth-protocol-08.txt, which does not use Ipsec at all but rather a scheme of authenticating the BU similar to that used in MIPv4. The point I or we wanted to make to Bernard is that the MIPv6 Authentication happens *after* the EAP authentication, and specifically: -The HA is not involved in the EAP authentication; and -The NAS, which is involved in the EAP authentication, is not involved in the MIPv6 authentication. Your description speaks to the Ipsec method where as my description was sufficient to describe the the non-Ipsec method.=20 So we need to understand these two models for MIPv6 authentication. In the non-Ipsec model after EAP based access authentication, the HA receives a BU from some MN. Not having seen this MN before, it consults a AAA server using the NAI contained in the BU in order to authenticate the BU. So the question is, can we use keys derived from EAP to perform this operation? Which keys?=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerardo Giaretta [mailto:Gerardo.Giaretta@TILAB.COM]=20 > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 3:29 AM > To: Avi Lior; Bernard Aboba; eap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 >=20 > Hi Avi, Bernard, all=20 >=20 > what we have been discussing in the MIP6 bootstrapping DT is=20 > slightly different. Please see my comments below.. >=20 > > >=20 > > > >MN <------> HA <-------> AAA > > >=20 > > > >So we'll need exchange between MN and HA and between HA and AAA. > >=20 > > No. There is an EAP exchange between the MN and the AAA. > >=20 > > So the call flow looks like this: > >=20 > > MN NAS HA AAA > > Access Request (EAP) > > +++++++++---------------------> Normal EAP > > Authentication > > Access Accept (EAP Success + keys) > > +++++++++<--------------------- > > =20 > > MIPv6 Binding Update > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> = Access Request > > ----------> > > Access Accept > > MIPv6 Binding Answer <---------- > > <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >=20 > > As shown above we do normal EAP based access request.=20 > >=20 > > The NAS is the authenticator. > >=20 >=20 > So far it is correct. >=20 > > When that is completed, the MN performs a MIPv6 Binding Update. > >=20 =20 > Before performing a MIPv6 BU, the MN must set up an IPsec SA=20 > with the HA.=20 >=20 > In the DT we are thinking that an AMSK (or a key derived from=20 > the AMSK) may be used as the pre-shared key in the IKE_AUTH=20 > exchange between MN and HA. The AAA server should send this=20 > key to the HA before the MN gets in touch with the HA. As far=20 > as I understand from Bernard's comments, this is ok if the=20 > MN/EAP peer requests the AAA server to perform the key=20 > delivery and if HA and AAA server are mutually authenticated.=20 > Please correct me if I'm wrong. >=20 > A different approach may be the following (pull approach):=20 > the MN starts IKE_AUTH with the AMSK as the pre-shared key.=20 > During IKEv2 exchange the HA requests the key to AAA server.=20 > If I understand correctly from Bernard comment, this is not=20 > possible based on EAP keying. > > The HA receives the BU and because it doesn't know the MN=20 > it uses the=20 > > NAI and consults with the AAA server. > >=20 >=20 > This MAY be possible if mip6-auth option is used. If IPsec is=20 > used to authenticate BUs this is not correct. Remind me please why this is not possible using IPsec? > > We would like to use the EAP keys or Keys derived from the=20 > EAP for the > > MIPv6 part. > >=20 >=20 > (DT leader hat on) >=20 > Just a bit of history: in the bootstrapping DT we have=20 > addressed two scenarios, the split scenario and the=20 > integrated scenario. In the integrated scenario the entity=20 > that authenticates and authorizes the MN for network access=20 > service and the entity that authenticates and authorizes the=20 > MN for MIPv6 service are the same. This implies that the > MIPv6 bootstrapping procedure may be optimized (e.g. in terms of round > trips) if the outcome of the authentication for network=20 > access is used also for mobility service. The usage of an=20 > AMSK for MIPv6 is one possible approach to achieve that. > Currently the DT has not produced any draft on this since we=20 > are waiting for a normative reference for AMSK and we would=20 > like having some feedback from EAP WG.=20 >=20 > (DT leader hat off) >=20 > An old draft (expired) about this is > http://www-lor.int-evry.fr/~maknavic/DRAFT/draft-giaretta-mip6 -amsk-00.t > xt.=20 >=20 > Thanks, > --Gerardo=20 >=20 >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > > Is an EAP exchange being run between the MN and AAA=20 > server, with the=20 > > > HA serving as the "EAP authenticator"? If so, the end result of=20 > > > this exchange is that the MN, HA and AAA server share a key. > > >=20 > > > >The EAP peer and server derive MSK and EMSK. The AAA server > > > requests to > > > >the EAP server an 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6'. > > > > > > > >A mobility management entity (not the EAP lower layer) on > > the mobile > > > >node requests locally the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' to the=20 > EAP layer. > > >=20 > > > Assuming that the HA is acting as an "EAP authenticator"=20 > > > here, the end result of this is that the MN and the EAP=20 > server/AAA=20 > > > server now have mutually authenticated to each other and have=20 > > > derived an AMSK that they know > > > is fresh, and which is known only to them. The HA and AAA=20 > > > server now > > > mutually authenticate and derive a cryptographically=20 > secure channel. =20 > > > The AMSK is now transported to the HA, which can use it=20 > in a mutual=20 > > > proof of possession exchange with the MN. > > >=20 > > > >Then, if we want that the mobile node shares a key with > > the HA, this > > > >implies that the HA requests a key to the AAA server. > > >=20 > > > Before the HA can request a key from the AAA server, it needs to=20 > > > prove that > > > it is authorized to receive that key. Typically this=20 > > > requires that it > > > mutually authenticate to the AAA server *and* include=20 > some "proof of=20 > > > liveness" from the EAP peer to show that the peer is actually=20 > > > interested in communicating with it. > > >=20 > > > So a better way to think about this is that the HA is not really=20 > > > requesting a key -- it is the EAP peer that is requesting=20 > that the=20 > > > AAA Server send a > > > key to that specific HA. If the EAP peer and AAA server=20 > > > share a trust > > > relationship and are mutuall authenticated, and if the HA and AAA=20 > > > server are mutually authenticated, and if the key that is being=20 > > > requested is unambiguously specified (e.g. it is=20 > "named"), then the=20 > > > AAA server will authorize the request and transport the=20 > key to the=20 > > > HA. > > >=20 > > > >I stay vague here. But one can imagine that the 'AMSK for > > > Mobile IPv6' > > > >is used by the MN to authenticate himself to the AAA. > > >=20 > > > "Key Request" proposals typically require mutual authentication=20 > > > between the EAP peer and AAA server. For example, if the MN/peer=20 > > > had previously established a cached AMSK with the AAA=20 > server, it can=20 > > > subsequently prove possession of that AMSK, and ask that a key=20 > > > derived from that AMSK be sent > > > to an HA that it specifies. This request needs to be=20 > > > "routed" through the > > > HA itself, which mutually authenticates to the AAA server. =20 > > > This guarantees that the "Key Request" is authenticated, bound to=20 > > > the entities involved in the exchange, and can generate=20 > fresh keys=20 > > > (this part probably requires nonces to be exchanged by=20 > the parties). > > >=20 > > > >This pre-shared key will be derived at MN and AAA from the > > "AMSK for > > > >Mobile IPv6" and then transported from the AAA to the HA. > > >=20 > > > If the key is dynamically derived it is not a pre-shared key. > > >=20 > > > >SO the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' is cached on the AAA server > > and MN but > > > >not transported. The key derived for MN-HA is deleted on > > the AAA and > > > >transported to the HA. > > >=20 > > > Right. > > >=20 > > > >Does such a mechanism seem correct respective to EAP keying > > > framework ? > > >=20 > > > It seems compatible with the "Key Request" extension that=20 > has been=20 > > > discussed. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > eap mailing list > > > eap@lists.frascone.com > > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > eap mailing list > > eap@lists.frascone.com > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gruppo Telecom Italia - Direzione e coordinamento di Telecom=20 > Italia S.p.A. >=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the=20 > persons above and may contain confidential information. If=20 > you have received the message in error, be informed that any=20 > use of the content hereof is prohibited. Please return it=20 > immediately to the sender and delete the message. Should you=20 > have any questions, please send an e_mail to=20 > MailAdmin@tilab.com. Thank you=20 > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From thistleechrevnr@charentelibre.fr Fri Nov 04 07:49:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EY10o-0002ZF-Da for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 07:49:42 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA17113 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 07:49:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from 220-138-73-98.dynamic.hinet.net ([220.138.73.98] helo=charentelibre.fr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EY1Fm-0005UY-6u for eap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:05:12 -0500 Message-ID: <005c01c5e13e$48786980$99e7a8c0@demote> From: "Mealla Thistle" To: "Bidane Roland" Subject: Re: Jasons time to think about it Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 07:50:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0059_01C5E114.5FA26180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C5E114.5FA26180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good overpayin ur Meddicat t our P s S day, Quit g for yo ions - visi harmaExpres hop. More information - http://lithiumnqg.choseand.com ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C5E114.5FA26180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Good   overpayin ur Meddicat t our P s S
day, = Quit g for = yo ions - = visi harm= aExpres ho= p.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C5E114.5FA26180-- From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Fri Nov 04 14:19:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EY75g-00031y-8T for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 14:19:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA08319 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECBCB207CB; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:19:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BFA207CA for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:18:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C7B89873; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 21:18:27 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436BB380.4090101@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eap@frascone.com Cc: Bernard Aboba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [eap] EAP WG agenda (updated) Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 21:16:16 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IETF-64 EAP WG Agenda Time: MONDAY, November 7, 2005, 0900-1130 Morning Session I (Opposite to apptsv, dnsext, grow, ccmap, pkix, and ippm.) Chairs: Bernard Aboba Jari Arkko PRELIMINARIES (10 minutes) Bluesheets Agenda Bash Document Status Open Issue Summary: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/eapissues.html Presentations and agenda online at: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IETF64/eap/ EAP Network Discovery and Selection (25 min) Problem Definition (Jouni Korhonen) http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-netsel-problem-03.txt - We would like to complete this document with respect to what is known in 2005, and publish it as an Informational RFC. - Jouni and Farooq have agreed to edit this draft. - Discussion of remaining issues. Keying Issues, Base (60 min) Keying Framework (Bernard Aboba) http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-keying-08.txt - To appear - This document will be in WGLC once it appears - Discussion of last call comments Keying Issues, Extensions (30 min) Keying Extensions (Bernard Aboba) http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/draft-aboba-eap-keying-extns-00.txt - Discussion about what, if anything, we need to do here. Gauging community interest. EAP Support for Handovers (Madjid Nakhjiri) http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nakhjiri-eap-ho-00.txt - Discussion. Are there requirements for keying extensions. Note that we intend to discuss EAP method related things in the EMU slot, not in the EAP slot. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Fri Nov 04 16:25:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EY93a-0006sm-D4 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:25:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14709 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17865207CD; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:25:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate7.mot.com (motgate7.mot.com [129.188.136.7]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5240A207CB for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:24:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr03.mot.com ([10.64.251.233]) by motgate7.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA4LmHe1013877 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:48:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA4LYYK3027400 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:34:35 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] AMSK for Mobile IPv6 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] AMSK for Mobile IPv6 Thread-Index: AcXgfn5Cc9xE73KKQJ6eh5SHSxIvcgBBx3hg From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Julien Bournelle" , Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:24:52 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Julien, Your perception is exactly what everybody that is not in tune with day to day of EAP list is assuming. EAP does the authentication between peer and server, some master keys are generated for the peer and stored at the AAA server. Now we can go ask the AAA server to use those master keys to generate keys for other applications, in your case an AMSK for MN-MIPv6 HA (an HA that is btw not an authenticator), but there are some catches that are being surfaced: 1) AMSK is derived from EMSK, but EMSK is not available to AAA server. 2) later "AMSK requests" have to go from AAA server to EAP server, but EAP server has now deleted the EMSK. Madjid -----Original Message----- From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of Julien Bournelle Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 7:54 AM To: eap@frascone.com Subject: [eap] AMSK for Mobile IPv6 Hi, I read your threads but I'm not sure to have well understand all the ideas beyond EAP keying and specifically concerning the AMSK. I'd like to briefly explain why and how an ASMK could be interesting for Mobile IPv6. One assume that the Mobile Node has an EAP client for network authentication access. To use Mobile IPv6, the mobile node needs an Home Agent. The MN and HA needs a pre-shared key but the mobile node may not know the HA before using Mobile IPv6 (cf. bootstrapping problem). Thus one idea could be to use a AMSK or a derived key from AMSK for this purpose. The EAP peer and server derive MSK and EMSK. The AAA server requests to the EAP server an 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6'. A mobility management entity (not the EAP lower layer) on the mobile node requests locally the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' to the EAP layer.=20 Then, if we want that the mobile node shares a key with the HA, this implies that the HA requests a key to the AAA server.=20 MN <------> HA <-------> AAA So we'll need exchange between MN and HA and between HA and AAA. I stay vague here. But one can imagine that the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' is used by the MN to authenticate himself to the AAA. This pre-shared key will be derived at MN and AAA from the "AMSK for Mobile IPv6" and then transported from the AAA to the HA. SO the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' is cached on the AAA server and MN but not transported. The key derived for MN-HA is deleted on the AAA and transported to the HA. Does such a mechanism seem correct respective to EAP keying framework ? Thanks, regards, -- julien.bournelle at int-evry.fr _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Fri Nov 04 16:27:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EY95a-0007Dh-66 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:27:10 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA14811 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C437207D0; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:27:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF3CE207CD for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id jA4LQNV1029084 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:26:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA4LXOrg024763 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:33:25 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 Thread-Index: AcXg4b6bgcbt4SVjQHijQ2Xh5ME/ngABnJAgACeJpbA= From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Avi Lior" , "Bernard Aboba" , Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:26:20 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Avi, Thanks for the description. -----Original Message----- From: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@lists.frascone.com] On Behalf Of Avi Lior Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 8:44 PM To: Bernard Aboba; eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 Hi Bernard,=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com > [mailto:eap-admin@lists.frascone.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 8:46 PM > To: eap@frascone.com > Subject: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 >=20 > >MN <------> HA <-------> AAA >=20 > >So we'll need exchange between MN and HA and between HA and AAA. No. There is an EAP exchange between the MN and the AAA. So the call flow looks like this: MN NAS HA AAA Access Request (EAP) +++++++++---------------------> Normal EAP Authentication Access Accept (EAP Success + keys) +++++++++<--------------------- =20 MIPv6 Binding Update =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Access = Request ----------> Access Accept MIPv6 Binding Answer <---------- <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D As shown above we do normal EAP based access request.=20 The NAS is the authenticator. When that is completed, the MN performs a MIPv6 Binding Update. The HA receives the BU and because it doesn't know the MN it uses the NAI and consults with the AAA server. We would like to use the EAP keys or Keys derived from the EAP for the MIPv6 part. > Is an EAP exchange being run between the MN and AAA server, with the=20 > HA serving as the "EAP authenticator"? If so, the end result of this=20 > exchange is that the MN, HA and AAA server share a key. >=20 > >The EAP peer and server derive MSK and EMSK. The AAA server > requests to > >the EAP server an 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6'. > > > >A mobility management entity (not the EAP lower layer) on the mobile=20 > >node requests locally the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' to the EAP layer. >=20 > Assuming that the HA is acting as an "EAP authenticator"=20 > here, the end result of this is that the MN and the EAP server/AAA=20 > server now have mutually authenticated to each other and have derived=20 > an AMSK that they know > is fresh, and which is known only to them. The HA and AAA=20 > server now > mutually authenticate and derive a cryptographically secure channel. =20 > The AMSK is now transported to the HA, which can use it in a mutual=20 > proof of possession exchange with the MN. >=20 > >Then, if we want that the mobile node shares a key with the HA, this=20 > >implies that the HA requests a key to the AAA server. >=20 > Before the HA can request a key from the AAA server, it needs to prove > that > it is authorized to receive that key. Typically this=20 > requires that it > mutually authenticate to the AAA server *and* include some "proof of=20 > liveness" from the EAP peer to show that the peer is actually=20 > interested in communicating with it. >=20 > So a better way to think about this is that the HA is not really=20 > requesting a key -- it is the EAP peer that is requesting that the AAA > Server send a > key to that specific HA. If the EAP peer and AAA server=20 > share a trust > relationship and are mutuall authenticated, and if the HA and AAA=20 > server are mutually authenticated, and if the key that is being=20 > requested is unambiguously specified (e.g. it is "named"), then the=20 > AAA server will authorize the request and transport the key to the HA. >=20 > >I stay vague here. But one can imagine that the 'AMSK for > Mobile IPv6' > >is used by the MN to authenticate himself to the AAA. >=20 > "Key Request" proposals typically require mutual authentication=20 > between the EAP peer and AAA server. For example, if the MN/peer had=20 > previously established a cached AMSK with the AAA server, it can=20 > subsequently prove possession of that AMSK, and ask that a key derived > from that AMSK be sent > to an HA that it specifies. This request needs to be=20 > "routed" through the > HA itself, which mutually authenticates to the AAA server. =20 > This guarantees that the "Key Request" is authenticated, bound to the=20 > entities involved in the exchange, and can generate fresh keys (this=20 > part probably requires nonces to be exchanged by the parties). >=20 > >This pre-shared key will be derived at MN and AAA from the "AMSK for=20 > >Mobile IPv6" and then transported from the AAA to the HA. >=20 > If the key is dynamically derived it is not a pre-shared key. >=20 > >SO the 'AMSK for Mobile IPv6' is cached on the AAA server and MN but=20 > >not transported. The key derived for MN-HA is deleted on the AAA and=20 > >transported to the HA. >=20 > Right. >=20 > >Does such a mechanism seem correct respective to EAP keying > framework ? >=20 > It seems compatible with the "Key Request" extension that has been=20 > discussed. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Fri Nov 04 16:41:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EY9JD-0000bX-O4 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:41:16 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15579 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:40:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB1E207D3; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:41:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F5D207D0 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id jA4LeSV1003559 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:40:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA4LlUPR002413 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:47:30 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Use of KDCs and AAA Thread-Index: AcXgzSf4pgvqEnr0S52yQEDmlV7KLwAufHnA From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Yoshihiro Ohba" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , "Bernard Aboba" , , Subject: [eap] Use of KDCs and AAA Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:40:26 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to call this KDC (center rather than function) to avoid confusion between a logical entity and a mathematical function. I am not sure if it is up to EAP WG to design AAA server architecture. All that aside,=20 If people feel it is more appropriate to have that separation, fine. I suggested separation of AAA client from a local key distribution center, so separation of AAA server from a central KDC is along at line. =20 The other issue is that the KDC must have a key available from EAP keying hierarchy that it can use to generate keys for applications that AAA server has authorized. So I can see the following model EAP server | XMSK keys V App ----->authorization------> AAA server-------key request----->KDC Agent request This is pretty much in line with one of sequences in authorization framework of RFC 2904. Madjid =09 -----Original Message----- From: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@lists.frascone.com] On Behalf Of Yoshihiro Ohba Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 5:18 PM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba; Jari Arkko; Bernard Aboba; aboba@internaut.com; eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? I think it makes sense to have the KDF in the AAA server only when (1) such an entity resides in the same domain as the AAA server and (2) use of the AAA protocol for distributing application-specific keys to application-specific entities is assumed. For other cases (i.e., bootstrapping applications in visiting domain or using non-AAA protocol for distributing application-specific keys), it might be good to put the KDF in a separate entity from the AAA server. Yoshihiro Ohba On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 05:02:59PM -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: > I tend to think of AAA protocol as a horizontal protocol (i.e. between > AAA server and AAA client) and that is btw why I have problem with the > word export. The only reason I am striving for a clarity between EAP=20 > server and AAA server is to have a spec that always further use of the > keys generated by a heavy EAP-XXX authentication. So I am saying if=20 > EAP server has throws the keys away to not overload itself, fine lets=20 > AAA server handle the authorization and key management issues for=20 > "at-the time of EAP-unknown" applications. I was not necessary=20 > advocating for a physical separation of the EAP and AAA server. Given=20 > I tend to read the specs as if AAA layer is a layer below the EAP=20 > layer (I Know Joe does not agree with this), I think this is a=20 > vertical layer separation, so you can't use a AAA protocol here. I do=20 > think that this "API" may need to be defined. > All that being said, I think the AAA servers of today or immediate=20 > future have the capability of doing key generation as long as a=20 > initial key with good entropy is provided to them by an EAP method, so > even if there is a KDF, I tend to think it is "co-located" with AAA=20 > server. I am not sure how adding a KDF helps the problem I am trying=20 > to solve: I am saying somebody needs to create keys and not throw them > away after it is transported, not sure how KDF versus AAA server=20 > separation helps that cause. >=20 > Madjid >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Yoshihiro Ohba [mailto:yohba@tari.toshiba.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 6:49 PM > To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 > Cc: Jari Arkko; Bernard Aboba; aboba@internaut.com; eap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? >=20 >=20 > What protocol do we assume for transporting an application-specific=20 > key from the entity that implements KDF (Key Derivation Function) to=20 > application-specific entities? I think we don't always assume a AAA=20 > protocol for this transport, Kerberos could be used for example and in > that case no key needs to be cached in the AAA server/proxy/client=20 > once the generic AMSK is passed to the entity that implements KDF. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Yoshihiro Ohba >=20 > On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 04:20:26PM -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 > wrote: > > Hi Jari, > >=20 > > Ok, if people feel strongly about not exporting the EMSK to the=20 > > lower layer. Then it would seem that a generic AMSK needs to be=20 > > generated and passed down to the lower layer (AAA server). The AAA=20 > > server then should be able keep the AMSK and to generate other=20 > > application-specific keys from the AMSK. > > Furthermore, it should be possible for the AAA server to not to=20 > > delete >=20 > > every key it has transported to the pass-through authenticator > >=20 > > Madjid > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:41 PM > > To: Bernard Aboba > > Cc: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; aboba@internaut.com; eap@frascone.com > > Subject: Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? > >=20 > > Bernard Aboba wrote: > >=20 > > > I would like to point out one other consequence of preventing=20 > > > lower layers (including AAA) from accessing the EMSK. It appears=20 > > > to me that > >=20 > > > this severely restricts implementation of a key cache on the AAA > > server. > > > > > > 1. We've talked about deletion of transported keys from the AAA=20 > > > server. So if an MSK (or AMSK) is calculated within the AAA layer > > > and > >=20 > > > subsequently transported, that key is destroyed and cannot be > cached. > >=20 > > From what I can recall, our earlier discussions about this focused=20 > > on >=20 > > the MSK. I'm not sure the same should apply on AMSKs, particularly=20 > > when we haven't defined what they are used for. > >=20 > > > 2. We've talked about how the EMSK cannot be passed down to the=20 > > > lower layer (including AAA). Therefore the EMSK also cannot be=20 > > > cached by the AAA layer. > >=20 > > This I still think should apply. > >=20 > > > > > > 3. Given 1) and 2) what keys *can* be cached in the AAA layer? =20 > > > Limited answers appear to be available. Caching of MSKs does not=20 > > > make > >=20 > > > much sense, even if they are not transported in a particular=20 > > > application, because some applications *do* transport MSKs. > > > > > > It would be possible for the AAA layer to request more than one=20 > > > AMSK, then cache the AMSKs that are not transported. > > > > > > However, this approach does not appear to enable implementation of > > > schemes such as "Key Request" and "Pre-emptive Key Distribution",=20 > > > both > >=20 > > > of which appear to require the AAA layer to calculate AMSKs *on > > demand*. > > > > > > To be able to do this, it would seem like the AAA server would=20 > > > need to > >=20 > > > have access to the EMSK -- since the EAP layer doesn't cache=20 > > > EMSKs, how else could AMSKs be calculated once EAP authentication > completes? > > > In the case of roaming systems it is not feasible to ask the EAP=20 > > > layer > >=20 > > > to calculate every conceivable AMSK that could be useful -- there=20 > > > could be thousands of them. > >=20 > > I think the answer lies in where the hierarchy is split. I still=20 > > believe EAP server should hold to EMSK and calculate AMSKs on demand. > > But it seems possible to hand keys to lower layers (e.g. AAA server=20 > > side > > logic) that are themselves branching of to number of subkeys. > > E.g. "the master handoff key for session xyz". The entity holding=20 > > such >=20 > > an AMSK can then branch it to, e.g., "the i:th handoff key for NAS > abc". > > There's a lot of room to do various designs, including proxy,=20 > > AAA-server etc. based caching. > >=20 > > --Jari > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > eap mailing list > > eap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Fri Nov 04 16:57:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EY9Yb-0003r8-M7 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:57:09 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA16591 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:56:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A617207D4; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:57:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate5.mot.com (motgate5.mot.com [144.189.100.105]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47DFA207D0 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate5.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate5) with ESMTP id jA4M4V5B019400 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:04:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA4M3qvm003377 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:03:52 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Hokey mailing list: Bar-meeting on Handover keying design Thread-Index: AcXUeip0K9cwHmNUTdaeGJGn/RgZUAKsIEEAAJd1bHAAAHgZgA== From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: Cc: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" Subject: [eap] Hokey mailing list: Bar-meeting on Handover keying design Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:56:04 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Folks, the mailing list for handover keying is set up.=20 Feel free to subscribe, I am expecting activity after the meeting. However, the meeting is only tentatively scheduled for Tuesday evening 9-10 PM somewhere in a IETF meeting area to be announced on the list or on the wall somewhere.=20 The list address is hokey@motorola.com, you can send emails but you cannot see emails if you are not subscribed. To subscribe: Send a message to "command@motorola.com" with the subject "maillist-subscribe" or "maillist-unsubscribe" depending on what you wish to do. In the body of the message should be the following.=20 listname=3DHOKEY subscribers=3Dyouremailaddress Thanks, Madjid Nakhjiri -----Original Message----- From: mip4-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mip4-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 3:25 PM To: Mobile IPv4 Mailing List Subject: [Mip4] Bar-meeting on Handover keying design =20 Hi, This is a solicitation for folks interested in a Bar-meeting (Bar pre-BoF or whatever the meeting ends up being) discussing handover keying (I call it HOKEY, and have created a semi-formal proposal in case we end up needing a BOF name for Dallas, who knows it does not hurt to have these things handy :) ). I have a link to an old draft from April down at the bottom of this email, but unfortunately, I did not have time to write a new version of the draft. The old draft may be enough to initiate some discussion. Please let me know if you are interested in participating. We will decide on the "happy hour" time and location :) I have not yet set up a proper mailing list, so if you are simply interested in checking things out, ***you do not need to send me an email yet*** as I am sending this email to several lists. If I manage to set of a mailing list in time for IETF, an announcement is to follow. Regards, Madjid Nakhjiri Handover Keying (HOKEY) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The recent "AAA Key Management" guidelines as well as several IEEE and WiMAX specification documents attest to the increasing popularity of approach of striving to benefit from the interaction with the authentication (AAA) servers during the network entry to provision further keying materials for support of other networking applications or handovers to other networks.=20 Recent attempts in applying these methods to access technologies with mobility support (such as WiMAX) has shown that the existing specifications may needs to be further examined or extended from the point of view of handover keying or networking application keying support. It seems to be more efficient to instead initiate a well-thought and documented design with a first-hand focus on mobility and handover keying and authorization mechanisms. The initial goal of this activity can be to examine the combination of the EAP and AAA documentations to utilize the EAP keying framework and the AAA infrastructure for handover keying and provide an appropriate key hierarchy that can handle the requirements stated in "AAA key management" and further venturing into other network applications that may need keying support. A background problem statement can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nakhjiri-eap-ho-00.txt _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From hondacarlotterypromotion@msn.com Sat Nov 05 18:08:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYX9U-0005E3-QP for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:08:48 -0500 Received: from omc3-s4.bay6.hotmail.com (omc3-s4.bay6.hotmail.com [65.54.249.78]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA25154 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 18:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.173.54]) by omc3-s4.bay6.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 5 Nov 2005 15:08:16 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 15:08:16 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 80.179.242.234 by BAY5-DAV24.phx.gbl with DAV; Sat, 05 Nov 2005 23:08:15 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [80.179.242.234] X-Originating-Email: [hondacarlotterypromotion@msn.com] X-Sender: hondacarlotterypromotion@msn.com From: "HONDA CAR PROMOTION" Subject: HONDA CAR PROMO (WINNER) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 03:18:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05FF_01C5E0EE.73E31F70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Nov 2005 23:08:16.0188 (UTC) FILETIME=[CDC31FC0:01C5E25D] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05FF_01C5E0EE.73E31F70 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0600_01C5E0EE.73E4A610"; type="multipart/alternative" ------=_NextPart_001_0600_01C5E0EE.73E4A610 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_0601_01C5E0EE.73E4A610" ------=_NextPart_002_0601_01C5E0EE.73E4A610 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 HONDA CAR LOTTERY (HEADQUARTERS)=20 An Affiliate of Honda UK.=20 28 TANFIELD ROAD,=20 CROYDON, LONDON FROM: HONDA COMPANY UK. ATTENTION: WINNER! TICKET NUMBER: 2752246896=20 SERIAL NUMBER: 652-662=20 BATCH NUMBER : AT-040SB06-03=20 AWARD FINAL NOTIFICATION: We are pleased to inform you of the release of the long awaited results = of the HONDA CAR INTERNATIONAL PROMOTION PROGRAM held on the 2nd of = November 2005.You were entered as dependent clients with; Reference = Serial Number: 652-662 and Batch number AT-040SB06-03. Your email address attached to the ticket number: 2752246896 that drew = the lucky winning number, which consequently won the sweepstake in the = first category, in four parts. You have been approved for a payment of = 250,000.00 Pounds Sterling (TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND POUNDS = STERLING) in cash credited to file reference number: IPL/4249859609/WP1. = This is from a total cash prize of Two Million, Five Hundred Thousand = Pounds Sterling shared among the ten international winners in first = categories, along with a new blue car. Congratulations!=20 All participants were selected through a computer ballot system drawn = from 50,000 (Fifty thousand) names of email users around the world, as = part of our international promotion program. Due to mixed up of some = names and addresses, we ask that you keep this award personal, till your = claims has been processed and your funds remitted to you. This is part of our security measures to avoid double claiming or = unwarranted taking advantage of the situation by other participants or = impersonators. You are contact our accredited agent for your claim. Name: Mr Allen Wales. E-mail: hondaclaimsagent@cooperation.net HONDA CLAIMING SECURITY AGENCY. He is your agent, and responsible for the processing and transfer of = your winnings to you. YOUR SECURITY FILE NUMBER IS W-91237-H67/B4 (keep = personal). Remember, your winning must be claimed not later than (1st = of December, 2005). You are required to forward the following details to help facilitate the = processing of your claims and certificate which will facilitate the = release of your winnings.=20 1. Full Names: 2. Residential Address: 3. Phone Number: 4. Fax Number: 5. Occupation: 6. Sex: 7. Age : 8. Nationality: 9. Present Country: =20 A scanned identification of your self sent via email. You are adviced to = forward these informations as soon as possible to enable us attend to = your file. Once again, Congratulations. Yours Sincerely, MR Mark david . HONDA CAR/LOTTERY CO-ORDINATOR. HONDA LOTTERY WINNING. ------=_NextPart_002_0601_01C5E0EE.73E4A610 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

HONDA CAR LOTTERY = (HEADQUARTERS) 
An=20 Affiliate of Honda UK.
28=20 TANFIELD ROAD,
CROYDON,=20 LONDON

FROM: HONDA COMPANY = UK.

ATTENTION: WINNER!
TICKET = NUMBER:=20 2752246896
SERIAL NUMBER: 652-662
BATCH NUMBER : AT-040SB06-03=20

AWARD FINAL NOTIFICATION:

We are pleased to inform you of = the release=20 of the long awaited results of the HONDA CAR INTERNATIONAL PROMOTION = PROGRAM=20 held on the 2nd of November 2005.You were entered as dependent = clients=20 with; Reference Serial Number: 652-662 and Batch number=20 AT-040SB06-03.

Your email address attached to = the ticket=20 number: 2752246896 that drew the lucky winning number, which = consequently won=20 the sweepstake in the first category, in four parts. You have been = approved for=20 a payment of 250,000.00 Pounds Sterling (TWO HUNDRED AND = FIFTY THOUSAND=20 POUNDS STERLING) in cash credited to file reference number: = IPL/4249859609/WP1.=20 This is from a total cash prize of Two Million, Five Hundred=20 Thousand Pounds Sterling shared among the ten international = winners in=20 first categories, along with a new blue car. Congratulations!=20

All participants were selected = through a=20 computer ballot system drawn from 50,000 (Fifty thousand) names of email = users=20 around the world, as part of our international promotion program. Due to = mixed=20 up of some names and addresses, we ask that you keep this award = personal, till=20 your claims has been processed and your funds remitted to = you.

This is=20 part of our security measures to avoid double claiming or unwarranted = taking=20 advantage of the situation by other participants or impersonators. You = are=20 contact our accredited agent for your claim.

Name: Mr Allen=20 Wales.
E-mail: hondaclaimsagent@coopera= tion.net

HONDA CLAIMING SECURITY = AGENCY.

He is your agent, and = responsible for=20 the processing and transfer of your winnings to you. YOUR SECURITY FILE = NUMBER=20 IS W-91237-H67/B4 (keep personal). Remember, your winning must be = claimed not=20 later than (1st  of December, 2005).
You are required to forward = the=20 following details to help facilitate the processing of your claims and=20 certificate which will facilitate the release of your winnings.

1. Full Names:
2. = Residential=20 Address:
3. Phone Number:
4. Fax Number:
5. Occupation:
6.=20 Sex:
7. Age :
8. Nationality:
9. Present = Country:
 
A=20 scanned identification of your self sent via email. You are adviced to = forward=20 these informations as soon as possible to enable us attend to your file. = Once again, Congratulations.

Yours Sincerely,
MR Mark=20 david .
HONDA CAR/LOTTERY CO-ORDINATOR.
HONDA LOTTERY=20 WINNING.

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4p+Kfhj+wdU07SNP0wzpOwtYXMrMucAu7nA57AH3xxX6WOiyIyOoZGGGUjII9DWf/YOk/wDQLsf/ AAFT/CgD8eK3PCnivV/BPimz17w3dtZalZsTHIACCCMMrKeGUgkEGv1r/sLSf+gXY/8AgKn+FH9h aT/0C7H/AMBU/wAKAPmT4E/tLeJviZ8Sbbw14g0rSIY5baaU3NkkqNlFyOGdhzX1ZVO30rT7SYS2 tjawSgYDxwKrY+oFXKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooo oAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiig D//Z ------=_NextPart_000_05FF_01C5E0EE.73E31F70-- From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Sat Nov 05 18:42:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYXfh-0001ml-VP for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:42:06 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26422 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 18:41:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CC820512; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 18:42:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF03202BA for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 18:41:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F30C89873; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 01:40:59 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436D428B.4050103@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 01:38:51 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba wrote: > Is an EAP exchange being run between the MN and AAA server, with the > HA serving as the "EAP authenticator"? There are multiple scenarios. If the scenario is according to your assumption above, then there may be no need at all for new protocols or keys. Specifically, MNs can, already today use EAP authentication to the home agent via draft-ietf-mip6-ikev2-ipsec, IKEv2, and IKEv2 EAP mode. This implies that AAA server delivers an MSK to the HA which is then subsequently used by IKEv2 authentication process; DH keys are used in IKEv2 to get keys for the actual IPsec SA which protects the BUs. So that works today, I think. What Julien, Gerardo et al are addressing is probably a different scenario, however. I'm not quite sure what the complete list of scenarios is. But one scenario that I can think of is where there's a desire to avoid a second AAA transaction from the HA by using an AMSK from an EAP authentication that already happened for other purposes. I remain personally unconvinced that such an optimization is needed, because there's a lot of protocol design, implementation effort, and assumptions to eliminate a few roundtrips from something that only needs to happen once (not on every movement). A third scenario is when not IPsec but mip6-auth-option is used when there's no credential that fits mip6-auth-option usage directly. (If such credential were available, then we would not need anything beyond mip6-auth-option. Note also that such credential may exist through roaming relationship, not necessarily needed to have it in HA or local AAA.) The only practical case that I can think of where this becomes a problem is where MN has an EAP credential (e.g. SIM, TLS) for the home network but that credential is not fit for usage in mip6-auth-option because it needs to be a plain shared secret. Anyway, in that scenario EAP-based AMSKs could potentially be used as the shared secrets for mip6-auth-option. This seems largely inline with what EAP keying framework allows to do, but of course the devil is in the details, and there'd have to be a document that describes the security analysis of the system. I tend to agree with you Bernard that the HA needs to be involved in some way. Julien, Gerardo, Avi -- what are the scenarios where you'd like to use AMSK? --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Sat Nov 05 19:21:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYYHT-0001k4-R9 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Nov 2005 19:21:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28571 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA5F2059D; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:21:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A124C202BA for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:20:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A17389871; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 02:20:08 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436D4BB9.4020706@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: eap@frascone.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [eap] Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 02:18:01 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: >Several EAP methods (EAP-AKA) are adding fast re-authentication >procedures, based on the knowledge of master key (have to read the draft >again, to see which key is needed) after the initial authentication. If >you delete the key, you cannot perform fast re-authentications. > > Methods do indeed have fast re-auth schemes. However, the keys they use are internal to the methods (TEKs) and not exported or visible to the EAP layer, lower layer, or AAA. That is, they do not need EMSK or AMSK support. Caching of TEKs is allowed by the keying framework. Section 3.3 says: EAP methods may cache local keying material which may persist for multiple EAP conversations when fast reconnect is used [RFC 3748]. For example, EAP methods based on TLS (such as EAP-TLS [RFC2716]) derive and cache the TLS Master Secret, typically for substantial time periods. Anyway, the use of such fast re-auth schemes helps with expensive auth procedures (such as in TLS) or when there's a potentially high volume of operations to the long-term secret that you may wish to optimize (such as in SIM/AKA). However, this does not help minimize AAA transactions to the home network. That is, its not a fast handoff mechanism if "fast handoff" is defined as an operation that does not need another transaction all the way back to the home network. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Sat Nov 05 19:34:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYYU6-0003tf-H5 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Nov 2005 19:34:12 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA28982 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9038F207AA; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:34:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C08D202BA for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C39D89871; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 02:33:13 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436D4EC9.9060402@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Bernard Aboba , aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [eap] Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 02:31:05 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: >Hi Jari, > >Ok, if people feel strongly about not exporting the EMSK to the lower >layer. Then it would seem that a generic AMSK needs to be generated and >passed down to the lower layer (AAA server). The AAA server then should >be able keep the AMSK and to generate other application-specific keys >from the AMSK. > > I do not think we want "generic" AMSKs. We want application specific AMSKs. Say, one AMSK for "fast handoff" and another one for "Mobile IPv6 Local HA Assignment". Otherwise one application can break another one. But yes, from a specific AMSK (e.g. for fast handoff) you can create more keys, specific, e.g., to a particular NAS that you have moved to. >Furthermore, it should be possible for the AAA server to not to delete >every key it has transported to the pass-through authentication. > Well. Not sure about this. Lets look at this in more detail with an example. 1. EMSK derived in method 2. lower layer i.e. AAA requests one AMSK: AMSK_handoff = ... Lower layer derives to additional keys from this: AMSK_handoff_auth = f(AMSK_handoff|"auth") AMSK_handoff_nasgen = f(AMSK_handoff|"nasgen") 3. EAP authentication completes, EMSK deleted 4. AMSK_handoff deleted in AAA server, AMSK_handoff_auth and _nasgen kept. 4. Host moves to a new authenticator, requests a key to that without having to reauth at EAP level. Nonce included. 5. Host and AAA server prove mutual possession of AMSK_handof_auth. 6. Calculate AMSK_handoff_nas_i = f(AMSK_handof_nasgen|i|nonce) AAA server sends AMSK_handoff_nas_i to new NAS. 7. AMSK_handoff_nas_i deletede from AAA server. 8. Host and new NAS prove mutual posessions of AMSK_handoff_nas_i So from a deletion & caching perspective we can observe that o EMSK can be deleted immediately, as long as the lower layer (AAA in this case) knows what applications are going to be allowed. o Each application gets a AMSK that can be kept an appropriate time, depending on whether it is needed or not. o All sent keys can be deleted. o Other keys that are not sent can be cached. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Sat Nov 05 19:37:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYYWw-0004EC-Nu for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Nov 2005 19:37:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29033 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:36:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB475207CD; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:37:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2C6202BA for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A9589871; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 02:36:21 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436D4F85.6010803@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com, aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 02:34:13 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba wrote: > Under Joe's proposal, an AMSK created during the original exchange can > be cached in the AAA server. One way that "Key Request" could work > would be for the EAP peer to request that a key be sent to the new > authenticator. It would make this request by contacting the new > authenticator, which would generate a AAA request. The EAP peer would > mutually authenticate to the AAA server, demonstrate possession of the > cached AMSK, and then request that a key derived from that AMSK be > sent to the new EAP authenticator. Via the AAA request the new EAP > authenticator would mutually authenticate to the AAA Server. > > So we have: > > a. Authentication of parties: EAP peer- AAA server; EAP > authenticator - EAP server; EAP peer-authenticator (through a > subsequent SAP exchange) > > b. Freshness. Presumably the EAP peer - AAA server exchange includes > nonces exchanged by both parties to ensure freshness of the derived > keys. Also the SAP exchange would include a nonce exchange. > > c. "Channel binding": The EAP peer requests that a key be sent via > the entity that it wants the key sent to. The new authenticator > identifies itself to the AAA server, allowing the EAP peer and AAA > server to verify that it is telling the same information to both the > AAA server and EAP peer. I like this. What do we need to make this possible in the keying framework? - Say EMSK is kept in method layer - Possibly say that EMSK can be deleted after AAA has made its declaration of what application keys its going to need (assuming we always know what applications are authorized a priori - but I think that's a good assumption). - Clarify the caching and parent death rules for AMSks. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Sat Nov 05 19:45:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYYej-0005Bo-8M for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Nov 2005 19:45:09 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29394 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198B8207D0; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:45:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C7B202BA for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:44:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B3889871; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 02:43:57 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436D514E.5000801@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: "Salowey, Joe" , Bernard Aboba , Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69062F54A3@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> <43686D17.6020709@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 02:41:50 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba wrote: >My own reservations with AAA server caching derive from the issues >surrounding "on demand" key creation: > >a. Presumably keys are created "on demand" only when requested by either >the EAP peer or authenticator. This implies that the EAP peer or >authenticator keep track of which AAA server is caching which keys, so >that they can direct subsequent requests to a server capable of answering >them. > >b. However, all EAP methods do not provide the Server-ID, which uniquely >identifies the EAP server which has produced a given key. Also, an EAP >authenticator/AAA client may not necessarily control which AAA server it >is talking to; it just sends an Access-Request with an NAI in the >User-Name attribute and it is routed to a destination. The Access-Accept >may not identify the originating AAA server well enough to allow the AAA >client to go back to that same AAA server again to request an "on demand" >key from it. Given this, it is not clear to me how a "Key Request" mode >could be made to work with all EAP methods or AAA configurations. > > These issues seem largely orthogonal to the question of whether the caching applies to the EMSK, AMSK, or f(AMSK). Having said that, I'm not sure its our task (in the keying framework) to design key-req architecture. All we need to do is to describe the current key usage (msk etc) and provide a "handle" such as the emsk/amsk for potential new designs, along with some basic rules for their usage. The question in this thread has been whether preventing emsk delivery to AAA or requiring deletion of keys sent over AAA prohibits some useful designs. From what I can see, the answer is "no" -- as has been demonstrated, appropriate design of the key hierarchy appears to make such designs possible even under these assumptions. However, there might be additional issues not brought up in the keying framework requirements that such designs need to take into account - such as ability to locate the right AAA server. That is no fault of the keying framework, and hence does not need to be discussed in it. Very important for extensions, though. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From DianeHardy@transfolio.com Sat Nov 05 21:36:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYaOc-0008JO-Ek for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:36:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA03810 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2005 21:36:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EYadv-00027x-BO for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:52:28 -0500 Received: from 218-169-138-49.dynamic.hinet.net ([218.169.138.49]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EYaOK-0001wz-Pq for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:36:22 -0500 Received: from vIcA@localhost by 8R1.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Sat, 05 Nov 2005 17:49:59 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Maureen Hanley" Reply-To: "Maureen Hanley" To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: 100's of titles by Systemworks Photoshop & Microsoft starting @ 9.99 Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 00:44:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: DianeHardy@transfolio.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--VIvApVqzRUktjYdXP6" X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: fe105289edd72640d9f392da880eefa2 Dpns ----VIvApVqzRUktjYdXP6 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable n
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TjOrKt3vimKbV81tNbO73fMusprDFEV0w4tU8u4WvfKlCF8Zy17whqK8lFXqaOfrX1V8c7IE fSl+u4DS/VI3l57MqFJPCdz/+jeoJyUwQVF71FwimKqONGo8NRzNcMYVwugtqUWn2d78vpe/ nlTvOVdMz6mKeLsSjiiFL2rhbW4VvivFpiarWU2Txvi81mXrKjl60Yf2862rXKc4R1nWq0J0 rR/tKIyD3Nv62lecjM1kTFIYkO46NqPDROeHJXlLdFa0k1ZeM5v09203wznOcp4znets5zvj Oc963jOf++znPwM60IIeNKcQ63hDIzrRim4OSxvt6EcGQzrShAwBADs= --------------AttPart_43213764==.OLA-- From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Sun Nov 06 12:26:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYoHO-0004C4-U9 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 12:26:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09682 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 12:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAF7207F7; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 12:26:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from smtp2.int-evry.fr (smtp2.int-evry.fr [157.159.10.45]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791FB1FE89 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 12:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ipv6-3.int-evry.fr (ipv6-3.int-evry.fr [157.159.100.76]) by smtp2.int-evry.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CB180AF; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:25:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from jb by ipv6-3.int-evry.fr with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EYoEA-0004Fc-TR; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 18:22:46 +0100 From: Julien Bournelle To: Jari Arkko Cc: Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com, gerardo.giaretta@tilab.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 Message-ID: <20051106172246.GA16333@ipv6-3.int-evry.fr> References: <436D428B.4050103@piuha.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <436D428B.4050103@piuha.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-INT-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-INT-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: jb@int-evry.fr Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:22:46 +0100 Hi jari, On Sun, Nov 06, 2005 at 01:38:51AM +0200, Jari Arkko wrote: > Bernard Aboba wrote: > > >Is an EAP exchange being run between the MN and AAA server, with the > >HA serving as the "EAP authenticator"? > > There are multiple scenarios. If the scenario is according to your > assumption above, then there may be no need at all for new protocols > or keys. Specifically, MNs can, already today use EAP > authentication to the home agent via draft-ietf-mip6-ikev2-ipsec, > IKEv2, and IKEv2 EAP mode. This implies that AAA server delivers > an MSK to the HA which is then subsequently used by IKEv2 > authentication process; DH keys are used in IKEv2 to get keys > for the actual IPsec SA which protects the BUs. > > So that works today, I think. > > What Julien, Gerardo et al are addressing is probably a > different scenario, however. I'm not quite sure what > the complete list of scenarios is. But one scenario that > I can think of is where there's a desire to avoid a second > AAA transaction from the HA by using an AMSK from an > EAP authentication that already happened for other > purposes. I remain personally unconvinced that such > an optimization is needed, because there's a lot of > protocol design, implementation effort, and assumptions > to eliminate a few roundtrips from something that > only needs to happen once (not on every movement). > > A third scenario is when not IPsec but > mip6-auth-option is used when there's no > credential that fits mip6-auth-option usage > directly. (If such credential were available, then we > would not need anything beyond mip6-auth-option. > Note also that such credential may exist through > roaming relationship, not necessarily needed to have > it in HA or local AAA.) The only practical case that > I can think of where this becomes a problem is where > MN has an EAP credential (e.g. SIM, TLS) for the > home network but that credential is not fit for > usage in mip6-auth-option because it needs to be > a plain shared secret. > > Anyway, in that scenario EAP-based AMSKs could > potentially be used as the shared secrets for > mip6-auth-option. This seems largely inline with > what EAP keying framework allows to do, but > of course the devil is in the details, and there'd > have to be a document that describes the security > analysis of the system. I tend to agree with you Bernard > that the HA needs to be involved in some way. > > Julien, Gerardo, Avi -- what are the scenarios where > you'd like to use AMSK? the scenario that I had in mind is the one described by gerardo. We have an authentication for network access using EAP. We derive an AMSK for mip6. Then the mobile obtains an home agent and runs IKEv2. But we'd like to use psk for authentication instead of EAP in the IKEv2 exchange. In this case, while recieving the third message of IKEv2 with AUTH payload (the MN uses the AMSK-mip6 or key derived from AMSK-mip6 as psk), the HA requests the key to the AAA. Other services such as FMIPv6 may benefit from such a mechanism based on AMSK. Julien > > --Jari > > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap -- julien.bournelle at int-evry.fr _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From Somerville@gleason.net Sun Nov 06 15:42:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYrL8-0006c9-Jm for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:42:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA19035 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 15:41:45 -0500 (EST) From: Somerville@gleason.net Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EYraZ-0004Ay-BV for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:58:09 -0500 Received: from pcp0010709225pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net ([69.243.42.141]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EYrL1-0005ZA-Fd for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:42:03 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO resurrector) (231.158.96.77) by pcp0010709225pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net with SMTP; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 15:41:31 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <8667241900.9174284780@pcp0010709225pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 15:41:28 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Momentum Stock Alert! 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From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Sun Nov 06 18:29:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYtwj-00044T-Ci for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 18:29:11 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26838 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC2A204A5; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:29:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from woodstock.binhost.com (woodstock.binhost.com [144.202.243.4]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 44D721FE89 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 22866 invoked by uid 0); 6 Nov 2005 23:28:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Russ-Laptop.vigilsec.com) (209.52.108.226) by woodstock.binhost.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2005 23:28:30 -0000 Message-Id: <7.0.0.10.2.20051106175858.06731658@vigilsec.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.10 (Beta) To: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" From: Russ Housley Cc: , In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [eap] Re: questions on AAA key management draft Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 18:28:32 -0500 Madjid: >I just spent a bit of time going through the AAA key management draft >(V00) and have the following comments. > >First of all I appreciate Bernard and Russ providing guidance for the >community and am wondering if there is a plan for sequels? And I don't >know which WG this draft was targeted for? AAA WG maybe? And I apologize >if I don't have the history on this draft. I am drawing parallels >between this draft and EAP keying drafts based on the following (may >that is not the intention). The goal is to publish a BCP RFC. Our hope is to submit the document to the IESG before the end of the year. To that end, I hope to publish -01 by the end of this week. >The draft provides a lot of history for why EAP came about, and talks >about combination of EAP and RADIUS, as well as EAP methods and post EAP >handshakes, it does sort of confirm the impression that it wants to talk >about key management using EAP and AAA protocols. However, I think the >following would lead to improvement > >1)the draft could be more clear when it deals with a AAA process and >when it deals with an EAP process > >1a)Initially picking up the draft with excitement I thought the draft is >talking about management of THE "AAA-key" produced as a result of EAP >process (sort of what EAP key management draft is defining). Ironically >that is the first thing that is sort of confusing. So "AAA assisted key >management" might be a good alternative!? How about: Guidance for AAA Key Management >1b) distinction between EAP server and AAA server. Distinction between >what is done by AAA protocol and what is done by EAP. For instance: > >1c) It talks about key caching but it would be nice if it included where >keys should or should not be cached (AAA server, AAA client, EAP >authenticator, EAP server etc.) Some of this is covered in EAP RFCs or >the new keying drafts, but others are not, simply because RADIUS RFCs >where written before EAP ones. It is becoming harder and harder to find >a one-stop shop for advice or spec to find the rules or point people to >in debates. Even then a lot of hair splitting between various documents >is required. I do not think that the party performing the caching is the important part. A fresh cryptographic key is one that is generated specifically for the intended use. In this situation, a post-EAP handshake is used to establish session keys. Thus, the AAA protocol and EAP method MUST ensure that the keying material supplied as an input to session key derivation is fresh, and the post-EAP handshake MUST generate a separate session key for each session, even if the keying material provided by EAP is cached. Further, the session keys MUST NOT be dependent on one another. That is, disclosure of one session key does not aid the attacker in discovering any other session keys. >1d) "replay detection mechanism: AAA key mgmt protocol exchanges MUST be >replay protected" Is the draft proposing ways to fix AAA (RADIUS or >Diameter) messaging? EAP messaging? Or only attributes that deal with >key management, I would think the latter. The document is not proposing any fixes. It is placing requirements on standards-track solutions. >Other comments: > >2) Not initially very clear what is meant by "session keys" in "strong, >fresh requirement", I am assuming we mean keys that are produced as part >of session association protocol (SAP), since the subsection later talks >about post-EAP handshakes. However, one paragraph does talk about keys >derived by EAP methods, so not sure if MSK, EMSK, AAA key needs to be >fresh, or Tasks or all. Given that the draft recognizes the definition >of SAP, using both SAP and post-EAP handshake can be pretty confusing. I do not have a better term to use here. It does not look like you do either. >3) More guidance on key scope is appreciated. For instance the scope of >key is defined by using the "least privilege" principle. From the point >of key derivation (who has the master key and the material to derive >further keys), I think this is clear to some extent, but since this >document advertises as providing guidance for AAA-based key management, >I think guidance on how it is possible (or not) for the AAA >infrastructure to control the key scope is useful. I have combing >through a lot of EAP keying material in the past year, I still have not >understood how much control the AAA server can exert on the key scope >and hierarchy (who can create what key from what, is AAA server aware of >SAP? Should it be?) This requires correct operation of all parties that hold the keying material needed to compute any subtree in the key hierarchy. I'm not sure that there is any useful guidance. >4) Key material confidentiality: Is nonce not considered as keying >material. If SAP (or post-EAP handshake) uses nonces, I did not think >they did not need to stay confidential? No, nonces are not keying material. >My final but not least important comment is that a lot of SDOs are >starting to use AAA key management mechanisms (using your terminology) >to provide security for mobile environments and in the absence of clear >guidance are creating a number of procedures that this very draft is >stating to want to avoid. Would it not really be helpful if this draft >provided more guidance for this densely populated category of people? >i.e. guidance on how to do use AAA-based key management mechanisms to >support handovers? > >For instance it is not clear from the draft and its > "prevention of Domino effect/ keying material confidentiality" >requirements whether > context transfer of keying material from one authenticator to the next >for support of fast mobility ruled out? My going position is that this should not be allowed. It would mean that the compromise of one authenticator has serious ramifications on other authenticators. I am willing to listen to arguments to the contrary, but it will take a compelling argument to change my mind. >Would we violate principle of least privilege even though we only move >MSK between authenticator? Or the post EAP keys between BSs (consider >802.16 model). Take a look at the work going on in 802.11r. Russ _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Sun Nov 06 19:48:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYvB8-0005Qt-Er for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 19:48:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA00534 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:47:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA0420576; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:48:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0AE1FE89 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:47:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 045CE89871; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 02:47:08 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436E957D.1080202@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julien Bournelle Cc: Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com, gerardo.giaretta@tilab.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: AMSKs for MIPv6 References: <436D428B.4050103@piuha.net> <20051106172246.GA16333@ipv6-3.int-evry.fr> In-Reply-To: <20051106172246.GA16333@ipv6-3.int-evry.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 01:45:01 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julien Bournelle wrote: > the scenario that I had in mind is the one described by gerardo. We > have an authentication for network access using EAP. We derive an AMSK > for mip6. Then the mobile obtains an home agent and runs IKEv2. But > we'd like to use psk for authentication instead of EAP in the IKEv2 > exchange. In this case, while recieving the third message of IKEv2 with > AUTH payload (the MN uses the AMSK-mip6 or key derived from AMSK-mip6 > as psk), the HA requests the key to the AAA. > > But is the reason to use PSK instead of EAP solely an optimization issue, or are there roaming limitations or somethat actually prevents the use of EAP? As I mentioned in my original post, I'm not at all convinced that we need to spend a lot of effort optimizing the bootstrap procedure, if it already works with existing protocols. > Other services such as FMIPv6 may benefit from such a mechanism based > on AMSK. > > Maybe. Can you expand on why they would benefit? --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Sun Nov 06 19:56:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYvIt-0007NO-8G for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 19:56:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA00860 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:55:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9348205C2; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:56:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A4D20576 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BA489871; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 02:55:09 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436E975E.5080109@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Bernard Aboba , aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 01:53:02 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: >It would indeed be unfortunate to create an "application dependence" in >the EAP layer. However, I'm not sure that AMSK proposal does that, >necessarily. If all the EAP layer does it take parameters from the >lower layer to create AMSKs, and then unconditionally carry out the >lower layer's instructions, then I think the mechanism could be quite >general. > >Madjid>> Yes, I agree, but prohibiting EMSK export will make application >dependence very hard. > > (Not sure if I'm responding to the e-mails in the correct order. This may have already been agreed upon...) The fundamental requirement appears to be to not transport EMSK and to avoid compromised applications from affecting each other. Presumably there are multiple ways to achieve this, but IMHO one good way would be to keep EMSK in the EAP layer and have the EAP layer produce AMSKs, based on the same formula for all keys, upon the request of the lower layer. Then the lower layer can get all the AMSKs that it needs, and as long as it requests different AMSKs for different applications, there's no chance of one application compromising another one. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Sun Nov 06 19:58:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYvKo-0007fj-MX for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 06 Nov 2005 19:58:06 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA00924 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:57:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94FC0207FA; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:58:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB3C20576 for ; Sun, 6 Nov 2005 19:57:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F55989871; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 02:57:38 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436E97F2.6080906@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Salowey, Joe" Cc: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 , Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE690626656E@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE690626656E@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 01:55:30 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe, >[Joe] This is OK the EAP Authenticator and EAP Server can be viewed as >part of the same logical entity with repsec to the lower layer. It >probably should say that once the key is delivered to the lower layer it >should be deleted from the EAP Authenticator and EAP server. > > Yes. One question that comes up in this context is how to ensure that the lower layer can't "re-request" the same AMSK. One answer to this is that the lower layer must initially make a request of all AMSKs, and the EAP layer ensures that it does not deliver more than one key for one (application id, parameters) pair. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 00:11:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYzHf-0007Sg-5X for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:11:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA14124 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 00:10:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E264C20397; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 00:11:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8839B1FE89 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 00:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6516289871; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 06:50:24 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436ECE80.4030200@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Avi Lior Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] [eap-keying] issue EAP and authorization References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:48:16 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Avi Lior wrote: > In draft-ietf-eap-keying-08.txt page 6: > > "The EAP server also > stores the peer's identity and/or other information necessary to > decide whether access to some service should be granted. The peer > stores information necessary to choose which secret to use for which > service." > > The issue i have is that the above seems to indicate that the > EAP-Server is somehow involved in authorization. > This is *hopefully" not true, and contradicts section 4.1 of the same > draft. It should not be true. Note that there may be scenarios where data from EAP needs to be used in an authorization decision, such as when method carries channel binding data. But this is opaque data while in EAP, and needs to be exported out, where the AAA server then makes the authorization decision. > Suggest re-write: > > "The EAP server also > stores the peer's identity and the peer > stores information necessary to choose which secret to use for which > service." Ok. > > Note also that in the following paragraph the sentence is repeated again: > > "If authentication is based on proof of possession of the private key > corresponding to the public key contained within a certificate, the > parties store the EAP method to be used and the trust anchors used to > validate the certificates. The EAP server also stores the peer's > identity and/or other information necessary to decide whether access > to some service should be granted. The peer stores information > necessary to choose which certificate to use for which service." > > Suggested re-write: > "If authentication is based on proof of possession of the private key > corresponding to the public key contained within a certificate, the > parties store the EAP method to be used and the trust anchors used to > validate the certificates. The EAP server also stores the peer's > identity and the peer stores information > necessary to choose which certificate to use for which service." Ok. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From hasty@dileo.net Mon Nov 07 00:29:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EYzZC-00020p-GC for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:29:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA14768 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 00:28:48 -0500 (EST) From: hasty@dileo.net Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EYzoi-0008F3-4Q for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:45:18 -0500 Received: from host86-131-2-65.range86-131.btcentralplus.com ([86.131.2.65]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EYzZ3-0006wn-Kf for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:29:05 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO blatantly) 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--=_4782cae9aa386afddc565d99e81398d4-- From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 02:36:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ1Y0-00088Z-AZ for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 02:36:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA22394 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 02:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41A1F204C5; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 02:36:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from tama5.ecl.ntt.co.jp (tama5.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.102]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45682027E for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 02:35:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from vcs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (vcs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.110]) by tama5.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA77Z3Q4008228; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:35:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from vcs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vcs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA77Z3NQ023435; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:35:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from mfs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (mfs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.112]) by vcs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA77Z2I7023426; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:35:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from mfs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mfs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA77Z27m017335; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:35:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from nttmail3.ecl.ntt.co.jp ([129.60.39.100]) by mfs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA77Z2tC017330; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:35:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.5.69]) by nttmail3.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA77Z1KC000269; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:35:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA77Z1Nr000278; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:35:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from ime.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (ime.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.5.229]) by eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA77Z0dT000275; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:35:01 +0900 (JST) Received: from lab.ntt.co.jp ([129.60.10.216]) by ime.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA77YwPL008141; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:34:58 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <436F03A6.7070006@lab.ntt.co.jp> From: Mayumi Yanagiya User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; ja-JP; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jari Arkko , Bernard Aboba Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] EAP WG agenda (updated) References: <436BB380.4090101@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: <436BB380.4090101@piuha.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:35:02 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id CAA22394 Hi, I can=92t attend this meeting. Could I ask a question about =93Keying=20 Extensions=94 on this list? In that draft, it is specified that only EAP entities can use EAP keys=20 for authentication. But, I think that it will be useful to extend EAP=20 key framework to non-EAP entities such as HA which may use non-EAP=20 authentication method. Are there any problems if we apply EAP key framework to non-EAP entities? --Mayumi > IETF-64 EAP WG Agenda >=20 > Time: > MONDAY, November 7, 2005, > 0900-1130 Morning Session I > (Opposite to apptsv, dnsext, grow, ccmap, pkix, and ippm.) >=20 > Chairs: > Bernard Aboba > Jari Arkko >=20 > PRELIMINARIES (10 minutes) >=20 > Bluesheets > Agenda Bash > Document Status > Open Issue Summary: > http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/eapissues.html > Presentations and agenda online at: > http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IETF64/eap/ >=20 > EAP Network Discovery and Selection (25 min) >=20 > Problem Definition (Jouni Korhonen) > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-netsel-problem-03.tx= t > - We would like to complete this document with respect to > what is known in 2005, and publish it as an Informational RFC. > - Jouni and Farooq have agreed to edit this draft. > - Discussion of remaining issues. >=20 > Keying Issues, Base (60 min) >=20 > Keying Framework (Bernard Aboba) > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-keying-08.txt > - To appear > - This document will be in WGLC once it appears > - Discussion of last call comments >=20 > Keying Issues, Extensions (30 min) >=20 > Keying Extensions (Bernard Aboba) > http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/draft-aboba-eap-keying-extns-00.txt > - Discussion about what, if anything, we need to do > here. Gauging community interest. >=20 > EAP Support for Handovers (Madjid Nakhjiri) > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nakhjiri-eap-ho-00.txt > - Discussion. Are there requirements for keying > extensions. >=20 > Note that we intend to discuss EAP method related things in the EMU > slot, not in the EAP slot. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 09:01:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ7Ya-0007fB-Mr for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:01:09 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA11179 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1554F207FD; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:01:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4783207FB for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1092289863; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:00:11 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436F4F5C.7080705@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: "Salowey, Joe" , Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 14:58:04 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: >On your comment on AAA-key, I think we need be rid of AAA-key in this >draft or define a precise relation between AAA-key and MSK. > I think Bernard's new definition (The term "AAA-Key" is synonymous with MSK) is precise. We should not delete the definition, because there are references to it, include some from RFC 3748. >As far as AMSK, I am ok with not including AMSK here (I guess:) ), but I >don't agree with this document providing conflicting guidelines with >extension draft. >By not sending EMSK down and asking to delete MSK after transport, we >are tying the architects hands from creating new AMSK use cases or >having other documents creating key hierarchies feeding off EAP keys.. > > I personally believe AMSK definition should be included in eap-keying. Having said that, I do not think there's a conflict if a one document says that a quantity is reserved and MUST NOT be used and then a later document takes that reserved quantity and uses it for something. We do this all the time for protocol fields. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 09:05:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ7cR-0000HN-1D for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:05:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA11549 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C16E20800; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:05:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF1A207FD for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485B889863; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:04:56 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436F5075.8040407@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: david@mitton.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:02:45 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba wrote: >> 1) EIK | PMK =truncate (MSK, 320) >> 2) PMK2= truncate (MSK, 160) > > > Both of these definitions imply that the PMK is a truncated version of > the MSK. Perhaps we can just point that out, and reference 802.11 > and 802.16e. There really is not much need to say anything more than > that. Indeed. Or even not say this much. They are using the MSK. Specific lower layers may do different things to the MSK (truncate, hash, add seven to it, reverse the bits, ...) but they are still using it. >> Existing lower layers already use the MSK directly so I don't think >> defining >> AMSKs derived from this quantity is appropriate in this document. > > > Right. Agreed. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From speedometer@biketravel.net Mon Nov 07 09:05:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ7ch-0000Nd-FZ for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:05:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA11552 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:04:56 -0500 (EST) From: speedometer@biketravel.net Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EZ7sF-0004bD-90 for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:21:31 -0500 Received: from adsl-131-91-192-81.adsl2.iam.net.ma ([81.192.91.131]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EZ7bv-0002Po-Je for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:04:39 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO 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tGhmkSWzTZDThDmPGlGtsl5kgQ3b3oJRHjvdxrplGlyhs+yx47XtLbfjTZMW9ldbB44OyyQLAAA7 --=_8d86f48cd05a7d956466737eb7cb33e2-- From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 09:22:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ7su-0003LB-Bc for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:22:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA12267 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5241320800; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:22:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B684207FD for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3756089863; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:21:57 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436F5475.9010606@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Bernard Aboba , david@mitton.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:19:49 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: >>1) EIK | PMK =truncate (MSK, 320) >>2) PMK2= truncate (MSK, 160) >> >> > >Both of these definitions imply that the PMK is a truncated version of >the >MSK. Perhaps we can just point that out, and reference 802.11 and >802.16e. > There really is not much need to say anything more than that. > >Madjid>> My point exactly, except even that is may be too much. What if >it was not a truncation? PMK creation, is really a lower layer issue. > > Suggested text: Pairwise Master Key (PMK) Lower layers use MSK in lower-layer dependent manner. For instance, in [IEEE-802.11i] Octets 0-31 of the MSK are known as the Pairwise Master Key (PMK). In [IEEE-802.11i] the TKIP and AES CCMP ciphersuites derive their Transient Session Keys (TSKs) solely from the PMK, whereas the WEP ciphersuite as noted in [RFC3580], derives its TSKs from both halves of the MSK. In [802.16e], the MSK is truncated to 40 octets for PMK and 20 octets for PMK2. and delete PMK usage from Appendix A. >Madjid>> Ok, if you say so. But it is still heavily used in 3748 and in >extension drafts > >"AAA-Key-B = prf(AMSK(0,63),"EAP AAA-Key derivation for > multiple attachments", AAA-Key, B-Called-Station-Id, > Calling-Station-Id,length)" > > The extension document is not currently on the table, and there may well be other approaches (e.g. yours). But I would point out that the "AAA-Key-B" really has nothing to do with the current AAA-Key; its a completely different quantity that could be used in handoffs. We can name it to whatever we want. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 09:42:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ8CJ-0007GN-RT for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:42:11 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA13422 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF29B20800; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:42:06 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78023207FB for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C8789863; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:29:06 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436F5623.6090402@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:26:59 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: >>***MSK and EMSK definitions talk about export. RFC 3748 terminology >>does not include "export", so it is not clear what export means. >> >> > >The definitions are copied from [RFC3748] without modification. Note >that [RFC3748] does include the term "export". See Section 1.2: > > Master Session Key (MSK) > Keying material that is derived between the EAP peer and server > and exported by the EAP method. The MSK is at least 64 octets in > length. In existing implementations, a AAA server acting as an > EAP server transports the MSK to the authenticator. > >Madjid>>Given that the definition "assumes" AAA server is the same as >EAP server, I cannot see what the importing entity is. This is another >place where separating EAP server and AAA server function would help. >Given that the current specs give so many 802.11 examples, I don't see >how an example of what "export" mean would hurt, I am guessing the >general definition of export is that the EAP method/ server and peer >will allow another layer (such as AAA layer) to see the keys, so why not >provide an example. > > That is indeed the definition of "export". But I think it is already clear without any text changes. The text says "exported by the EAP method". This implies delivering the data out of the EAP method, which is a protocol layer. So it seems very clear that the data goes to the next layer. Similarly, "transport" is very clear to me. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 10:15:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ8iB-0006Uf-Jt for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 10:15:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15533 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102682037B; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:15:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44628202AF for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7AB89872; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:14:36 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436F60CC.4020203@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mayumi Yanagiya Cc: Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] EAP WG agenda (updated) References: <436BB380.4090101@piuha.net> <436F03A6.7070006@lab.ntt.co.jp> In-Reply-To: <436F03A6.7070006@lab.ntt.co.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:12:28 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id KAA15533 Mayumi Yanagiya wrote: > Hi, > > I can=92t attend this meeting. Could I ask a question about =93Keying=20 > Extensions=94 on this list? > > In that draft, it is specified that only EAP entities can use EAP keys=20 > for authentication. But, I think that it will be useful to extend EAP=20 > key framework to non-EAP entities such as HA which may use non-EAP=20 > authentication method. > > Are there any problems if we apply EAP key framework to non-EAP entitie= s? Its hard to give an answer without talking about the specific keys in question. I hope the draft is clear that long-term secrets, MKs, TEKs, MSKs, EMSKs are indeed only for specific EAP entities. Having said that, I see no reason to prohibit the use of AMSKs or even TSKs in a wider context, e.g., the delivery of keys delivered from AMSKs for some fast-handoff entity that did not do EAP. Of course, such usage would have to be well designed to avoid problems and make sense from other points of view, but there should not be any fundamental reason to prevent this in the EAP keying framework. One current issue that is preventing this in practise, however, is that -08 does not define the AMSKs. My suggestion would be to define it, which would allow usage of AMSKs (with the good design) without the need for EAP WG to respin the keying framework document or add new extensions. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 10:21:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ8o1-0007WQ-Co for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 10:21:11 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15964 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:20:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33CA5205E8; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:21:05 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB1602037B for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:20:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E6489872; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:20:36 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436F6234.7010900@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:18:28 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: >Hi Bernard, > >I did some more reading in the 08 doc, and I am trying to put all the >pieces of the puzzle together. > >Section 2.2. of EAP keying 08 prohibits sending EMSK down to the lower >layer (section 2.2). > >So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys > > We may have discussed this already, but this is I believe correct. The EMSK should not be handed to the lower layer. But see below: >(AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer must >itself authorize each service application and calculate any AMSK that >are needed for that application. Not only we are including a role of >authorization into an EAP server, but also we are saying the EAP layer >must anticipate all applications that need to derive their keys based on >the EAP keying process. Should not be the AAA server to make > > I think we can easily arrange things so that the AAA layer asks for AMSKs 1, 2, and 3, which fulfils security requirements (EMSK is not exposed) and does not require application knowledge from EAP layer. Does this work for you? --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 10:26:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ8so-0000CO-8F for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 10:26:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16322 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0842205FB; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:26:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A952037B for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D34FE89872; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:25:32 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436F635B.3020905@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: "'Salowey, Joe'" , aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Rewrite of Section 2 of the EAP Key Management Framework References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:23:23 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba wrote: >>In the document we should not show the propagation of the EMSK and have >>a statement like the following (I'm not sure where it goes yet): >> >> > >While I agree that we should not be adding material relating to the EMSK, we >do have to be consistent with RFC 3748, which states that the EMSK is >exported by EAP methods. This means that the EAP peer/authenticator layer >(and presumably the EAP layer) will receive the EMSK. > >My current proposal is to state that the EMSK is passed down to the EAP >peer/authenticator layer and EAP layer, but is never passed down to the >lower layer, although keys calculated from the EMSK can be passed down to >the lower layer if requested by the lower layer, as long as the EMSK itself >is not exposed. > > This works for me. >>"Instead of using the EMSK directly keys should be derived for application >>specific usage. This usage and specification is beyond the scope of the >>current document." >> >> > >I think that some language specifying that the lower layer never receives >the EMSK, or quantities from which the EMSK can be derived should do the >job. > > Yes. I also think that we should define the generic formula for AMSKs. The only problem that I have is whether we can agree on f in AMSK=f(EMSK). --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 10:28:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZ8un-0000kt-03 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 10:28:09 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16486 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F678207FD; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:28:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFDBC2037B for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 10:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852D489863; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:33:34 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436F572D.5050605@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Salowey, Joe" , Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 , Bernard Aboba Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] WGLC for eap-keying: EAP server-AAA server References: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE690626655A@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE690626655A@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:31:25 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The conclusion of this appears to be - o Terms AAA server, backend authentication server, EAP server: EAP server is a different entity. But it would be useful to use a single term for the "backend authentication server"/AAA server. THe document already states that the terms are used interchangeably. For backwards compatibility reasons (e.g. RFC 3748) we should not delete the terms, but use just one through the eap-keying document. o Definition of "export". Not sure if we need to add anything here. o AAA-Key. There has indeed been confusion. But It seems that Bernard's new definition works: AAA-Key The term "AAA-Key" is synonymous with MSK. o Use of MSK as a basis for AMSKs. This appears to not possible due to the use MSK for another purpose already. o Definition of PMK. We may need to say less here. Suggested text: Pairwise Master Key (PMK) Lower layers use MSK in lower-layer dependent manner. For instance, in [IEEE-802.11i] Octets 0-31 of the MSK are known as the Pairwise Master Key (PMK). In [IEEE-802.11i] the TKIP and AES CCMP ciphersuites derive their Transient Session Keys (TSKs) solely from the PMK, whereas the WEP ciphersuite as noted in [RFC3580], derives its TSKs from both halves of the MSK. In [802.16e], the MSK is truncated to 40 octets for PMK and 20 octets for PMK2. and delete PMK usage from Appendix A. o Definition of AMSKs here vs. in the extensions. We have discussed this in other threads already. I think we were leaning on defining them here, but we can discuss this issue in the meeting today. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 13:28:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZBiy-000858-In for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 13:28:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27490 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:27:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCA7206A5; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:28:05 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav9.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.81]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A0EA20675 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:27:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:40:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 209.52.107.215 by BAY106-DAV9.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:40:01 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [209.52.107.215] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com From: "Bernard Aboba" To: Message-ID: <000001c5e3ba$24002a60$d76b34d1@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E377.15DCEA60" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcXjuiPCC7PMED+oSxmExq8luxDBLg== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Nov 2005 16:40:02.0320 (UTC) FILETIME=[E65C7100:01C5E3B9] Subject: [eap] Slides for IETF 64 Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:41:45 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E377.15DCEA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are available here: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IETF64/eap/ If you haven't yet sent slides to the chairs, please do so ASAP. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E377.15DCEA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E3CD.E9308880-- From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 14:54:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZD4B-0006Vi-1c for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 14:54:09 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03824 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:53:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA44220803; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:54:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52A7206E0 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDF989863; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:31:53 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <436F64D9.10507@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yoshihiro Ohba Cc: Bernard Aboba , Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com, aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] RE: Issue: EMSK transported to other parties? References: <20051103231823.GC6409@steelhead> <20051104001332.GE6409@steelhead> In-Reply-To: <20051104001332.GE6409@steelhead> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:29:45 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone wrote: >>>I think it makes sense to have the KDF in the AAA server only when (1) >>>such an entity resides in the same domain as the AAA server and (2) >>>use of the AAA protocol for distributing application-specific keys to >>>application-specific entities is assumed. For other cases (i.e., >>>bootstrapping applications in visiting domain or using non-AAA >>>protocol for distributing application-specific keys), it might be >>>good to put the KDF in a separate entity from the AAA server. >>> >>> I am confused by this. KDF is a function, not an entity. Every we subdivide the key hierarchy in some manner we need a function to do this... this happens in different places in the network, depending on what level of keys we are talking about. and Bernard wrote: >>How could an entity other than the EAP peer or server gain access to the >>EMSK in order to generate AMSKs? The EMSK cannot be transported, so only >>the EAP peer and server can have access to it. An entity must have access >>to the EMSK to apply a Key Distribution Function (KDF) to it in order to >>produce an AMSK. So therefore only the EAP peer and the EAP server can >>apply a KDF to the EMSK to produce AMSKs. >> >> Agreed. and Yoshi wrote: >If we use generic AMSK to derive other AMSKs, the EAP server can >derive the generic AMSK from the EMSK and give it to the entity >providing KDF (and I think the generic AMSK should be >cryptographically bound to the identity of the KDF entity which could >be the AAA server or something else in general). Once it is done, the >generic AMSK can be deleted from the EAP server and no entity needs to >access the EMSK and the generic AMSK. > > We can have lower layer ask for AMSKs. Such AMSKs can have further hierarchy. But I don't think we should have a generic AMSK in the sense that its used for multiple applications. One per app, be it mobile ipv6 with ha x, or handoffs within this domain, or... --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 17:14:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZFFf-0005zE-Kx for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:14:10 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11390 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A392080F; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:14:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from toshi17.tari.toshiba.com (mgw.toshibaamericaresearch.com [165.254.55.12]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B53FA206FA for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (toshi17.tari.toshiba.com [172.30.24.10]) by toshi17.tari.toshiba.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jA7MD8R8090734; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:13:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from yohba@tari.toshiba.com) To: Jari Arkko Cc: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 , Bernard Aboba , aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Message-ID: <20051107221233.GF16542@steelhead> References: <436D4EC9.9060402@piuha.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <436D4EC9.9060402@piuha.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 From: Yoshihiro Ohba X-Dispatcher: imput version 20050308(IM148) Lines: 88 Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:12:46 -0500 On Sun, Nov 06, 2005 at 02:31:05AM +0200, Jari Arkko wrote: > Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: > > >Hi Jari, > > > >Ok, if people feel strongly about not exporting the EMSK to the lower > >layer. Then it would seem that a generic AMSK needs to be generated and > >passed down to the lower layer (AAA server). The AAA server then should > >be able keep the AMSK and to generate other application-specific keys > >from the AMSK. > > > > > I do not think we want "generic" AMSKs. We want application > specific AMSKs. Say, one AMSK for "fast handoff" and another > one for "Mobile IPv6 Local HA Assignment". Otherwise one > application can break another one. But yes, from a specific > AMSK (e.g. for fast handoff) you can create more keys, > specific, e.g., to a particular NAS that you have moved to. > > >Furthermore, it should be possible for the AAA server to not to delete > >every key it has transported to the pass-through authentication. > > > Well. Not sure about this. Lets look at this in more detail > with an example. > > 1. EMSK derived in method > > 2. lower layer i.e. AAA requests one AMSK: > AMSK_handoff = ... I am not sure this handoff key is to be used for both L2 mobility (Wi-Max, etc.) and L3 mobility (MIPv6, FMIPv6, etc.) or just either of them. > Lower layer derives to additional keys from > this: > AMSK_handoff_auth = f(AMSK_handoff|"auth") > AMSK_handoff_nasgen = f(AMSK_handoff|"nasgen") > > 3. EAP authentication completes, EMSK deleted > > 4. AMSK_handoff deleted in AAA server, AMSK_handoff_auth > and _nasgen kept. > > 4. Host moves to a new authenticator, requests > a key to that without having to reauth at EAP > level. Nonce included. > > 5. Host and AAA server prove mutual possession of > AMSK_handof_auth. > > 6. Calculate > AMSK_handoff_nas_i = f(AMSK_handof_nasgen|i|nonce) > AAA server sends AMSK_handoff_nas_i to new NAS. > > 7. AMSK_handoff_nas_i deletede from AAA server. > > 8. Host and new NAS prove mutual posessions of > AMSK_handoff_nas_i > > So from a deletion & caching perspective we can > observe that > > o EMSK can be deleted immediately, as long as the > lower layer (AAA in this case) knows what applications > are going to be allowed. This actually seems prohibiting "on-demand" key generation. Yoshihiro Ohba > > o Each application gets a AMSK that can be kept > an appropriate time, depending on whether it is > needed or not. > > o All sent keys can be deleted. > > o Other keys that are not sent can be cached. > > --Jari > > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From keefe.evertonuq0z@gmail.com Mon Nov 07 17:26:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZFRe-0008SE-DH; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:26:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12104; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EZFhK-0002LR-6d; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:42:43 -0500 Received: from cpc2-stok2-6-0-cust171.bagu.cable.ntl.com ([82.4.169.171]) by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EZFRc-0007WU-B3; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:26:28 -0500 Received: from gmail.com (gsmtp83-2.google.com [66.249.83.114]) by cpc2-stok2-6-0-cust171.bagu.cable.ntl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id KUPS8IWVZX for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 18:26:48 +0000 From: "Erik Sams" To: Subject: Take just a candy and become ready for 36 hours of love Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 18:26:48 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Thread-Index: vLf7rH6NQJ9HF2ekdEury24JViYQzwT0VdCX Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cialis Soft Tabs is the new impotence treatment drug that everyone is talking about. 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From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Mon Nov 07 17:33:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZFY8-0001E7-54 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:33:13 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA12836 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:32:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 272BA20813; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:33:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.40]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0694E206FA for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2005 17:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from pp109-216.bctel.ca [209.52.109.216] (helo=Alperyegin) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrelayus1) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKp2t-1EZFX43CjU-0002yZ; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:32:06 -0500 From: "Alper Yegin" To: Cc: Message-ID: <000001c5e3eb$156e7f70$d86d34d1@Alperyegin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E3FB.D8F74F70" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Provags-ID: perfora.net abuse@perfora.net login:abf7a4bb310ea4dfc9b6841113e2970f Subject: [eap] why authenticator is not on the access node? Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 00:32:03 +0200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E3FB.D8F74F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Sam, Continuing the discussion we had during the EAP WG... Various mobile and wireless architectures place the authenticator (NAS) on a centralized node instead of on each access node (e.g., IEEE 802.11 access point (AP), IEEE 802.16 base station(BS)). This is mostly driven by practical deployment considerations. Architectures like WiFi and WiMAX that need to support hundreds of AP/BS and seamless mobility across them tend to include a centralized element that manages the network access sessions of each mobile terminal. Various services such as mobility management (L2 and L3), network access, radio resources are controlled in that element. Technically the NAS can be placed on the AP/BS, but given the high number of these elements, and the need to coordinate sessions as mobile stations move from one to other, a hierarchical model where all such management functionalities are aggregated in a centralized server is preferred. I hope this clarifies the motivation behind the separation of NAS from the access nodes. Regards, Alper ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E3FB.D8F74F70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Sam,

 

Continuing the discussion we had during the EAP = WG…..

 

Various mobile and wireless architectures place the = authenticator (NAS) on a centralized node instead of on each access node (e.g., IEEE = 802.11 access point (AP), IEEE 802.16 base station(BS)).

 

This is mostly driven by practical deployment considerations. Architectures like WiFi and = WiMAX that need to support hundreds of AP/BS and = seamless mobility across them tend to include a centralized element that manages = the network access sessions of each mobile terminal. Various services such = as mobility management (L2 and L3), network access, radio resources are controlled in that element.

 

Technically the NAS can be placed on the AP/BS, but = given the high number of these elements, and the need to coordinate sessions = as mobile stations move from one to other, a hierarchical model where all = such management functionalities are aggregated in a centralized server is = preferred.

 

I hope this clarifies the motivation behind the = separation of NAS from the access nodes.

 

Regards,

 

Alper

 

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E3FB.D8F74F70-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Tue Nov 08 02:24:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZNpw-0003K2-2b for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 02:24:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA16273 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 02:23:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D81812077F; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 02:24:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from vms044pub.verizon.net (vms044pub.verizon.net [206.46.252.44]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8302076E for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 02:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from Matt-Holdrege2.verizon.net ([81.51.11.90]) by vms044.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.02 (built Sep 9 2005)) with ESMTPA id <0IPM005H9KIV6823@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> for eap@frascone.com; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 01:23:21 -0600 (CST) From: Matt Holdrege Subject: Re: [eap] why authenticator is not on the access node? In-reply-to: <000001c5e3eb$156e7f70$d86d34d1@Alperyegin> X-Sender: res06gzk@incoming.verizon.net To: "Alper Yegin" , Cc: Message-id: <6.0.3.0.2.20051108082158.01b7fc20@incoming.verizon.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_252706468==.ALT" References: <000001c5e3eb$156e7f70$d86d34d1@Alperyegin> Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:23:17 +0100 --=====================_252706468==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps in some architectures, but not all. In large mesh networks it is=20 (or so far empirical evidence suggests) that it is better to have the NAS=20 at each radio. So please keep that in mind. -Matt At 11:32 PM 11/7/2005, Alper Yegin wrote: >Hi Sam, > >Continuing the discussion we had during the EAP WG=85.. > >Various mobile and wireless architectures place the authenticator (NAS) on= =20 >a centralized node instead of on each access node (e.g., IEEE 802.11=20 >access point (AP), IEEE 802.16 base station(BS)). > >This is mostly driven by practical deployment considerations.=20 >Architectures like WiFi and WiMAX that need to support hundreds of AP/BS=20 >and seamless mobility across them tend to include a centralized element=20 >that manages the network access sessions of each mobile terminal. Various= =20 >services such as mobility management (L2 and L3), network access, radio=20 >resources are controlled in that element. > >Technically the NAS can be placed on the AP/BS, but given the high number= =20 >of these elements, and the need to coordinate sessions as mobile stations= =20 >move from one to other, a hierarchical model where all such management=20 >functionalities are aggregated in a centralized server is preferred. > >I hope this clarifies the motivation behind the separation of NAS from the= =20 >access nodes. > >Regards, > >Alper > --=====================_252706468==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps in some architectures, but not all. In large mesh networks it is (or so far empirical evidence suggests) that it is better to have the NAS at each radio. So please keep that in mind.

-Matt

At 11:32 PM 11/7/2005, Alper Yegin wrote:
Hi Sam,
 
Continuing the discussion we had during the EAP WG=85..
 
Various mobile and wireless architectures place the authenticator (NAS) on a centralized node instead of on each access node (e.g., IEEE 802.11 access point (AP), IEEE 802.16 base station(BS)).
 
This is mostly driven by practical deployment considerations. Architectures like WiFi and WiMAX that need to support hundreds of AP/BS and seamless mobility across them tend to include a centralized element that manages the network access sessions of each mobile terminal. Various services such as mobility management (L2 and L3), network access, radio resources are controlled in that element.
 
Technically the NAS can be placed on the AP/BS, but given the high number of these elements, and the need to coordinate sessions as mobile stations move from one to other, a hierarchical model where all such management functionalities are aggregated in a centralized server is=20 preferred.
 
I hope this clarifies the motivation behind the separation of NAS from the access nodes.
 
Regards,
 
Alper
 
--=====================_252706468==.ALT-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Tue Nov 08 03:11:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZOZO-0007AA-TS for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 03:11:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA19610 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 03:10:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED90207D4; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 03:11:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E462076E for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 03:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from p213.54.87.234.tisdip.tiscali.de [213.54.87.234] (helo=[192.168.0.6]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu7) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML2Dk-1EZOYe1xK0-0006z8; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:10:20 +0100 From: Thomas Otto To: eap@frascone.com User-Agent: KMail/1.8.92 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511080910.20517.t.otto@sharevolution.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:3105fcefe481186a11ed9e9de1ccc56f Subject: [eap] EMU BOF Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:10:20 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all! Regarding the EMU BOF on Thursday. It is widely accepted that there is need for more standardized EAP methods. Also for an pre-shared key based method. Florent Bersani has done a lot of work in this direction, and although this has been in early 2004, the analysis is still up-to-date. The respective I-Ds are 1) draft-bersani-eap-synthesis-sharedkeymethods-00.txt e.g. available here: http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-bersani-eap-synthesis-sharedkeymethods/ 2) draft-bersani-eap-sharedkeymethods-doctemplate-00.txt e.g. available here: ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-bersani-eap-sharedkeymethods-doctemplate/ A second note. Although we agree that a pre-shared key EAP method must be standardized, it is to discuss which features this method has to offer. I have collected my thoughts on this issue and put them into slides, available here http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013790/IETF64-EMU-PresharedKeyMethods.pdf and the source http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013790/IETF64-EMU-PresharedKeyMethods.ppt Probably they motivate a discussion at the EMU BOF. Thomas _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Tue Nov 08 06:15:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZRRX-0001Cp-5O for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 06:15:12 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA29035 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 06:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A0120781; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 06:15:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from tama55.ecl.ntt.co.jp (tama55.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.103]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C07F32043E for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 06:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from vcs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (vcs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.110]) by tama55.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA8BDx2N009563; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:13:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from vcs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vcs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA8BDwD4028067; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:13:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from mfs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (mfs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.112]) by vcs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA8BDwtd028064; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:13:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from mfs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mfs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA8BDv6D006924; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:13:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from nttmail3.ecl.ntt.co.jp ([129.60.39.100]) by mfs3.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA8BDvaP006921; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:13:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.5.69]) by nttmail3.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA8BDvVh003883; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:13:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA8BDuUS024493; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:13:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from ime.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (ime.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.5.229]) by eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA8BDuRP024490; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:13:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from lab.ntt.co.jp ([129.60.10.216]) by ime.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jA8BDmJK015617; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:13:55 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <4370886C.2090002@lab.ntt.co.jp> From: Mayumi Yanagiya User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; ja-JP; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jari Arkko Cc: Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] EAP WG agenda (updated) References: <436BB380.4090101@piuha.net> <436F03A6.7070006@lab.ntt.co.jp> <436F60CC.4020203@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: <436F60CC.4020203@piuha.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:13:48 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id GAA29035 Thank you for your reply. > >> Hi, >> >> I can=92t attend this meeting. Could I ask a question about =93Keying >> Extensions=94 on this list? >> >> In that draft, it is specified that only EAP entities can use EAP key= s >> for authentication. But, I think that it will be useful to extend EA= P >> key framework to non-EAP entities such as HA which may use non-EAP >> authentication method. >> >> Are there any problems if we apply EAP key framework to non-EAP=20 entities? > > > > Its hard to give an answer without talking about the specific keys > in question. I hope the draft is clear that long-term secrets, MKs, > TEKs, MSKs, EMSKs are indeed only for specific EAP entities. > Having said that, I see no reason to prohibit the use of AMSKs > or even TSKs in a wider context, e.g., the delivery of keys delivered > from AMSKs for some fast-handoff entity that did not do EAP. > Of course, such usage would have to be well designed to > avoid problems and make sense from other points of view, > but there should not be any fundamental reason to prevent > this in the EAP keying framework. I intended to discuss about AMSKs and TSKs usage. I=92m very happy to hear that there is no problem to use AMSK for non-EAP= =20 entity. I=92ve submitted a draft about this concept in order to reduce=20 pre-setting of authentication information (It has been expired). And, I=20 read that mip6 ML have started discussion about usage of AMSK for mipv6=20 bootstrapping. > One current issue that is preventing this in practise, however, > is that -08 does not define the AMSKs. My suggestion would be > to define it, which would allow usage of AMSKs (with the good > design) without the need for EAP WG to respin the keying > framework document or add new extensions. Originally, AMSK was defined in the key framework draft as appendix,=20 wasn=92t it? I haven't caught up the reason why the specification of AMSK= =20 is separated from main key framework draft. --Mayumi > --Jari > > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Tue Nov 08 13:43:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZYR1-00039q-IN for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:43:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25108 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:42:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B04D1FDC0; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:43:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED301FC9D for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:42:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from pp109-216.bctel.ca [209.52.109.216] (helo=Alperyegin) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrelayus0) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKoyl-1EZYQN2n1Z-0004xJ; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:42:27 -0500 From: "Alper Yegin" To: "'Russ Housley'" Cc: Subject: RE: [eap] Re: questions on AAA key management draft Message-ID: <000001c5e494$2bb1ea20$d86d34d1@Alperyegin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.10.2.20051106175858.06731658@vigilsec.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Provags-ID: perfora.net abuse@perfora.net login:abf7a4bb310ea4dfc9b6841113e2970f Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:42:25 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Russ, > >For instance it is not clear from the draft and its > > "prevention of Domino effect/ keying material confidentiality" > >requirements whether > > context transfer of keying material from one authenticator to the next > >for support of fast mobility ruled out? > > My going position is that this should not be allowed. It would mean > that the compromise of one authenticator has serious ramifications on > other authenticators. I am willing to listen to arguments to the > contrary, but it will take a compelling argument to change my mind. In PANA WG, we have a mobility optimization that relies on an anchor NAS providing a session key to another NAS. Please see: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pana-mobopts-01.txt Let me summarize it here using general terms: NAS1 has already executed EAP with the client, and holds AAA-Key1. When the client moves to NAS2, instead of running EAP again and generating a new AAA-Key, this solution relies on NAS1 generating an AAA-Key-int(erim) as follows: AAA-Key-int = PRF(AAA-Key, NAS2-ID | Client-Session-ID) NAS1 passes the AAA-Key-int to NAS2. NAS2 generates a new AAA-Key-new as: AAA-Key-new = PRF(AAA-Key-int, NAS2_nonce | client_nonce) AAA-Key-new is used by the client and NAS2 until a new round of EAP authentication is executed. As we wrote in the security considerations section, compromise of NAS1 along with interception of nonces on the new link lead to compromise of NAS2. But, compromise of NAS2 does not lead to compromise of NAS1. We also suggested that for deployments that want to reduce the potential threat should subsequently force the client to perform a new EAP authentication with the NAS2. We'd like to hear your thoughts on this. Given that this is an optional feature with a documented risk/warning and a suggested remedy, do you still see issues with this? Regards, Alper _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From mankwoodr@tccd.net Tue Nov 08 14:33:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZZDs-0000HF-J4 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:33:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28235 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:33:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from gre92-5-82-237-199-167.fbx.proxad.net ([82.237.199.167] helo=tccd.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EZZTj-0005wL-7l for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:50:00 -0500 Message-ID: <003e01c5e49b$578f4c80$bff7a8c0@pacificatory> From: "Woodrow Mankin" To: "Fredrick Mccorvey" Subject: Jeffery: interesting information Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:33:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003B_01C5E471.6EB94480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C5E471.6EB94480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Q ng for you s - v maExpre op uit overpayi r Meddication isit our Phar ss Sh V V P X A C I A r a m I A L o n b A G I z a i L R U a x e I A M c n S 69,95 85,45 99,95 ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C5E471.6EB94480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C5E471.6EB94480-- From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Tue Nov 08 16:58:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZbTk-0004hL-0c for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 16:58:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08491 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED37D1FDC4; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:58:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33051FDC1 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:57:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA8M9wlL023473 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:09:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA8M68ub029848 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:06:08 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Thread-Index: AcXj3nT1OXp5iI5UQCCQuAhS7JGb+AA0BFHg From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Jari Arkko" Cc: "Bernard Aboba" , , "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:57:29 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think at least for handover or for MIP type applications we can work with this comfortably, i.e. have an HO-AMSK and a PMIP-AMSK and so on. And for HO, I will derive all the keys that are needed for HO-AMSK. However, as we discussed during HOKEY meeting last night, this makes the assumption that the AAA nows at the time authentication, about all the applications for which it needs AMSKs for. This works for now, since we can say that a well designed system should make all AAA decisions (especially authorization ones) at once. Still it would be nice if do not add the limitation that prevents the AAA layer/ server to later ask for another keys, to be exact, if we do not require deletion of EMSK immediately after AMSK creation. I cannot come of a specific example right now. Madjid >So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys > =20 > We may have discussed this already, but this is I believe correct. The EMSK should not be handed to the lower layer. But see below: >(AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer=20 >must itself authorize each service application and calculate any AMSK=20 >that are needed for that application. Not only we are including a role=20 >of authorization into an EAP server, but also we are saying the EAP=20 >layer must anticipate all applications that need to derive their keys=20 >based on the EAP keying process. Should not be the AAA server to make > =20 > I think we can easily arrange things so that the AAA layer asks for AMSKs 1, 2, and 3, which fulfils security requirements (EMSK is not exposed) and does not require application knowledge from EAP layer. Does this work for you? --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Tue Nov 08 17:01:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZbWj-0005ex-Ao for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:01:18 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08631 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86AB91FDC8; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:01:08 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BDBC1FDC1 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from il06exr02.mot.com (il06exr02.mot.com [129.188.137.132]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA8MCXqe024013 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:12:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA8M9IUQ005932 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:09:18 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] RE: Issue: EMSK transported to other parties? Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] RE: Issue: EMSK transported to other parties? Thread-Index: AcXjsGXgrh2bxqHQSbq5d52WwyQe2AA/1IrQ From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Jari Arkko" , "Yoshihiro Ohba" Cc: "Bernard Aboba" , , Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:00:00 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Makes sense, Madjid -> =20 > We can have lower layer ask for AMSKs. Such AMSKs can have further hierarchy. But I don't think we should have a generic AMSK in the sense that its used for multiple applications. One per app, be it mobile ipv6 with ha x, or handoffs within this domain, or... --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Tue Nov 08 17:22:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZbr0-0002rA-06 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:22:10 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09750 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:21:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E0091FDCB; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:22:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate5.mot.com (motgate5.mot.com [144.189.100.105]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4601FDC8 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:21:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr01.mot.com (az33exr01.mot.com [10.64.251.231]) by motgate5.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate5) with ESMTP id jA8MThN7001654 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:29:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA8MYJUq011838 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:34:20 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Thread-Index: AcXiZ96A+TB9C6fPQaqzymXq3CRjgACSOiBQ From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Jari Arkko" Cc: , "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" Subject: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:21:02 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, let me think loud, EMSK is not cached, can I use AMSK to design some sort of EAP-method independent fast re-authentication procedure without worrying if the method I am using has fast re-auth or not? =20 To answer to the other points, re-authentication may have to be done even when you are not doing HO. Anyway, regardless of that point, Having to go to AAA server once is different from doing a full EAP-TLS exchange involving several roundtrips. -----Original Message----- From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net]=20 Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 6:18 PM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: >Several EAP methods (EAP-AKA) are adding fast re-authentication=20 >procedures, based on the knowledge of master key (have to read the=20 >draft again, to see which key is needed) after the initial=20 >authentication. If you delete the key, you cannot perform fast re-authentications. > =20 > Methods do indeed have fast re-auth schemes. However, the keys they use are internal to the methods (TEKs) and not exported or visible to the EAP layer, lower layer, or AAA. That is, they do not need EMSK or AMSK support. Caching of TEKs is allowed by the keying framework. Section 3.3 says: EAP methods may cache local keying material which may persist for multiple EAP conversations when fast reconnect is used [RFC 3748]. For example, EAP methods based on TLS (such as EAP-TLS [RFC2716]) derive and cache the TLS Master Secret, typically for substantial time periods. Anyway, the use of such fast re-auth schemes helps with expensive auth procedures (such as in TLS) or when there's a potentially high volume of operations to the long-term secret that you may wish to optimize (such as in SIM/AKA). However, this does not help minimize AAA transactions to the home network. That is, its not a fast handoff mechanism if "fast handoff" is defined as an operation that does not need another transaction all the way back to the home network. --Jari _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Tue Nov 08 17:43:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZcBI-0002oN-3m for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:43:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11324 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:42:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68E21FDC5; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:43:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from toshi17.tari.toshiba.com (mgw.toshibaamericaresearch.com [165.254.55.12]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546FB1FDBA for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:42:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (toshi17.tari.toshiba.com [172.30.24.10]) by toshi17.tari.toshiba.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jA8MgjAW094798; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:42:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from yohba@tari.toshiba.com) To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Jari Arkko , Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Message-ID: <20051108224223.GD17375@steelhead> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 From: Yoshihiro Ohba X-Dispatcher: imput version 20050308(IM148) Lines: 62 Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:42:23 -0500 On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 04:57:29PM -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: > I think at least for handover or for MIP type applications we can work > with this comfortably, i.e. have an HO-AMSK and a PMIP-AMSK and so on. > And for HO, I will derive all the keys that are needed for HO-AMSK. > > However, as we discussed during HOKEY meeting last night, this makes the > assumption that the AAA nows at the time authentication, about all the > applications for which it needs AMSKs for. I think this assumption has a limitation for MIPv6 bootstrapping. In some case, the AAA server may not know which HA is to be chosen by the MN until an explicit request comes from HA x chosen by the MN. In this case, a key for HA x should be generated on-demand basis (but I am not sure whether use of AMSK or MSK is appropriate for this case). Yoshihiro Ohba > This works for now, since we > can say that a well designed system should make all AAA decisions > (especially authorization ones) at once. Still it would be nice if do > not add the limitation that prevents the AAA layer/ server to later ask > for another keys, to be exact, if we do not require deletion of EMSK > immediately after AMSK creation. I cannot come of a specific example > right now. > > Madjid > > > >So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys > > > > > We may have discussed this already, but this is I believe correct. The > EMSK should not be handed to the lower layer. But see below: > > >(AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer > >must itself authorize each service application and calculate any AMSK > >that are needed for that application. Not only we are including a role > >of authorization into an EAP server, but also we are saying the EAP > >layer must anticipate all applications that need to derive their keys > >based on the EAP keying process. Should not be the AAA server to make > > > > > I think we can easily arrange things so that the AAA layer asks for > AMSKs 1, 2, and 3, which fulfils security requirements (EMSK is not > exposed) and does not require application knowledge from EAP layer. Does > this work for you? > > --Jari > > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Tue Nov 08 17:54:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZcLy-0006eI-Bd for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:54:10 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11821 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB04F1FDC9; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:54:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FDC1FDBA for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from il06exr03.mot.com (il06exr03.mot.com [129.188.137.133]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jA8N5M0n003091 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:05:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA8N3grZ024392 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:03:42 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Remaining EMSK-AMSK issues??? Thread-Index: AcXf2db8A1y/11dqTfyDRNDcrP2fhAE2zOgA From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Bernard Aboba" , Cc: , , "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" Subject: [eap] Remaining EMSK-AMSK issues??? Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:00 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So assuming that the EAP layer keeps EMSK _till_ it receives AMSK1,2, ...N requests from the AAA layer and creates these AMSKs and delete EMSK. I think we are also laxing the requirement on having delete the cache on a key transported to an authenticator (at least Jari seemed to see the need for doing that). we still have the following questions to be answered? 1) The EAP layer must have a wait to see an AMSK request in its "states" and cannot delete EMSK prematurely. Is this considered? 2) What is the protocol between eAP layer and AAA layer, does "AMSK request" include "NO-of-requested AMSKs", so EAP layer does not delete EMSK prematurely.=20 3) We need to separate the life time of AMSK from life time of EMSK and allow the child to survive its parents.. 4) we are assuming that the AAA layer below the EAP layer at the physical EAP server (I like to see it at AAA server) has received the authorization for all applications for which it needs AMSKs. Which means all the "application agents" (think possibly MIP agents) need to make sure they direct their requests are handled by the AAA server that is doing the AMSK requests 5) issues that Bernard mentioned at the bottom of this email that we will start working on slowly... Madjid -----Original Message----- From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:bernard_aboba@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 12:18 PM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; aboba@internaut.com Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net; eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] RE: Issue: AAA Key Caching effectively prohibited? >The ability for AAA server to cache the AMSK as long as the EMSK is valid. The AMSK lifetime cannot be determined by the EMSK lifetime if an AMSK is=20 cached and the EMSK is to be destroyed after EAP authentication finishes. =20 The existing draft says that "death of the parent causes death of the child"=20 so some adjustment is required to this to accomodate AMSK caching. >Ordering the AAA >server to delete the AMSK will prohibit the use of this framework by=20 >many of its current constituencies, examples: So far, all that has been discussed is destruction of keys that are transported. AMSKs explicitly created for caching do not have to be deleted. >If you delete it after first transport, how could the HA can come ask=20 >for it. One of the AAA key management requirements is that keys only be provided to parties that "need to know" about them, and that parties generating keys be mutually authenticated. Since the AAA server does not "need to know" the TSKs used between the EAP peer and authenticator, it must not have access to the information needed to generate those TSKs -- namely the transported keys. By deleting the transported keys, the Secure Association Protocol proof of possession gains greater meaning, since the EAP peer knows that only the EAP authenticator and itself have access to the transported keying material; the AAA server does not. >Handover, say another authenticator gets involved after the handover,=20 >if you delete the initial master keys, what would the AAA server do=20 >when it receives a request from the new authenticator? Under Joe's proposal, an AMSK created during the original exchange can be cached in the AAA server. One way that "Key Request" could work would be for the EAP peer to request that a key be sent to the new authenticator. It would make this request by contacting the new authenticator, which would generate a AAA request. The EAP peer would mutually authenticate to the AAA server, demonstrate possession of the cached AMSK, and then request that a=20 key derived from that AMSK be sent to the new EAP authenticator. Via the=20 AAA request the new EAP authenticator would mutually authenticate to the AAA Server. So we have: a. Authentication of parties: EAP peer- AAA server; EAP authenticator - EAP server; EAP peer-authenticator (through a subsequent SAP exchange) b. Freshness. Presumably the EAP peer - AAA server exchange includes nonces exchanged by both parties to ensure freshness of the derived keys. Also the SAP exchange would include a nonce exchange. c. "Channel binding": The EAP peer requests that a key be sent via the entity that it wants the key sent to. The new authenticator identifies itself to the AAA server, allowing the EAP peer and AAA server to verify that it is telling the same information to both the AAA server and EAP peer. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Tue Nov 08 17:54:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZcM9-0006ik-3S for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:54:21 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA11830 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CF61FDCC; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:54:09 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from mail.flarion.com (mail.flarion.com [63.103.94.23]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7561FDBA for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ftmailserver.flariontech.com ([10.10.1.140]) by mail.flarion.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:30 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Thread-Index: AcXktcmk1zqqx/iwQSi+JH76DbkaGQAAQQgg From: "Vanderveen, Michaela" To: "Yoshihiro Ohba" , "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , "Bernard Aboba" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Nov 2005 22:53:30.0845 (UTC) FILETIME=[3D4BC0D0:01C5E4B7] Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:53:29 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We are running into the problem that the keys necessary for fast handoff = though derived with no problems, are not ready to be transported until = the HA asks for them. Thus since it has been agreed last night that = AMSKs can be transported to more than one entity, the AAA server should = be able to cache these keys for a (short) while, until all entities that = need the key have obtained them. Michaela -----Original Message----- From: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com = [mailto:eap-admin@lists.frascone.com]On Behalf Of Yoshihiro Ohba Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:42 PM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Jari Arkko; Bernard Aboba; eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK = creation On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 04:57:29PM -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 = wrote: > I think at least for handover or for MIP type applications we can work > with this comfortably, i.e. have an HO-AMSK and a PMIP-AMSK and so on. > And for HO, I will derive all the keys that are needed for HO-AMSK. >=20 > However, as we discussed during HOKEY meeting last night, this makes = the > assumption that the AAA nows at the time authentication, about all the > applications for which it needs AMSKs for.=20 I think this assumption has a limitation for MIPv6 bootstrapping. In some case, the AAA server may not know which HA is to be chosen by the MN until an explicit request comes from HA x chosen by the MN. In this case, a key for HA x should be generated on-demand basis (but I am not sure whether use of AMSK or MSK is appropriate for this case). Yoshihiro Ohba > This works for now, since we > can say that a well designed system should make all AAA decisions > (especially authorization ones) at once. Still it would be nice if do > not add the limitation that prevents the AAA layer/ server to later = ask > for another keys, to be exact, if we do not require deletion of EMSK > immediately after AMSK creation. I cannot come of a specific example > right now. >=20 > Madjid >=20 >=20 > >So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys > > =20 > > > We may have discussed this already, but this is I believe correct. The > EMSK should not be handed to the lower layer. But see below: >=20 > >(AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer=20 > >must itself authorize each service application and calculate any AMSK = > >that are needed for that application. Not only we are including a = role=20 > >of authorization into an EAP server, but also we are saying the EAP=20 > >layer must anticipate all applications that need to derive their keys = > >based on the EAP keying process. Should not be the AAA server to make > > =20 > > > I think we can easily arrange things so that the AAA layer asks for > AMSKs 1, 2, and 3, which fulfils security requirements (EMSK is not > exposed) and does not require application knowledge from EAP layer. = Does > this work for you? >=20 > --Jari >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole = use of the intended recipient. Any review or distribution by others is = strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient please contact the = sender and delete all copies. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Tue Nov 08 18:37:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZd1Z-0003cb-82 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 18:37:09 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13694 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:36:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE60E1FDD7; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:37:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from toshi17.tari.toshiba.com (mgw.toshibaamericaresearch.com [165.254.55.12]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A751FDD4 for ; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:36:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (toshi17.tari.toshiba.com [172.30.24.10]) by toshi17.tari.toshiba.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jA8NanTR094968; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:36:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from yohba@tari.toshiba.com) To: "Vanderveen, Michaela" Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba , Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 , Jari Arkko , Bernard Aboba , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Message-ID: <20051108233640.GE17375@steelhead> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 From: Yoshihiro Ohba X-Dispatcher: imput version 20050308(IM148) Lines: 99 Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:36:40 -0500 An issue would be that it might be difficult to determine how long the keys should be cached. The MN may not communicate with the HA until it needs to start MIPv6. So probably an additional key hierarchy is needed with introducing a key holder (or a KDC) which holds an application-specific root key during authorization lifetime for MIPv6 bootstrapping. Yoshihiro Ohba On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 05:53:29PM -0500, Vanderveen, Michaela wrote: > We are running into the problem that the keys necessary for fast handoff though derived with no problems, are not ready to be transported until the HA asks for them. Thus since it has been agreed last night that AMSKs can be transported to more than one entity, the AAA server should be able to cache these keys for a (short) while, until all entities that need the key have obtained them. > > Michaela > > -----Original Message----- > From: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@lists.frascone.com]On Behalf Of Yoshihiro Ohba > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:42 PM > To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 > Cc: Jari Arkko; Bernard Aboba; eap@frascone.com > Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation > > > On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 04:57:29PM -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: > > I think at least for handover or for MIP type applications we can work > > with this comfortably, i.e. have an HO-AMSK and a PMIP-AMSK and so on. > > And for HO, I will derive all the keys that are needed for HO-AMSK. > > > > However, as we discussed during HOKEY meeting last night, this makes the > > assumption that the AAA nows at the time authentication, about all the > > applications for which it needs AMSKs for. > > I think this assumption has a limitation for MIPv6 bootstrapping. In > some case, the AAA server may not know which HA is to be chosen by the > MN until an explicit request comes from HA x chosen by the MN. In > this case, a key for HA x should be generated on-demand basis (but I > am not sure whether use of AMSK or MSK is appropriate for this case). > > Yoshihiro Ohba > > > > This works for now, since we > > can say that a well designed system should make all AAA decisions > > (especially authorization ones) at once. Still it would be nice if do > > not add the limitation that prevents the AAA layer/ server to later ask > > for another keys, to be exact, if we do not require deletion of EMSK > > immediately after AMSK creation. I cannot come of a specific example > > right now. > > > > Madjid > > > > > > >So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys > > > > > > > > We may have discussed this already, but this is I believe correct. The > > EMSK should not be handed to the lower layer. But see below: > > > > >(AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer > > >must itself authorize each service application and calculate any AMSK > > >that are needed for that application. Not only we are including a role > > >of authorization into an EAP server, but also we are saying the EAP > > >layer must anticipate all applications that need to derive their keys > > >based on the EAP keying process. Should not be the AAA server to make > > > > > > > > I think we can easily arrange things so that the AAA layer asks for > > AMSKs 1, 2, and 3, which fulfils security requirements (EMSK is not > > exposed) and does not require application knowledge from EAP layer. Does > > this work for you? > > > > --Jari > > > > _______________________________________________ > > eap mailing list > > eap@lists.frascone.com > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > eap mailing list > > eap@lists.frascone.com > > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > > > > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > =========================================================== > This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use > of the intended recipient. Any review or distribution by others is strictly > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient please contact the sender > and delete all copies. > =========================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From burl@admanco.com Tue Nov 08 23:44:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZhog-0007FH-BM; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 23:44:10 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11743; Tue, 8 Nov 2005 23:43:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EZi4Z-0007fO-9y; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 00:00:36 -0500 Received: from [207.44.178.110] (helo=ev1s-207-44-178-110.ev1servers.net) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EZhoT-0005lr-RW; Tue, 08 Nov 2005 23:43:58 -0500 Received: (from conceit@207.44.178.110) by afghanistanE.182.232.108.1 (D.4D.E/8.F4.3) id u3E5SnWD19898; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:38:52 +0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Costello axial" From: "Costello axial" To: "Dhcwg-admin" Subject: it's not a problem that you didn't graduate Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:41:52 +0400 X-Identity-Key: my MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--5796BC6A2D73BF93D525" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 ----5796BC6A2D73BF93D525 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good jobs require a universityy education. 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Should you prefer not to grab hold of this holiday offer you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_QXQOISSG.VJWROEUE-- From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Wed Nov 09 02:41:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZkZw-0000AP-Fj for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 02:41:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA19782 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 02:40:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83571FDD3; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 02:41:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.188]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04941FDBE for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 02:40:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from p213.54.66.249.tisdip.tiscali.de [213.54.66.249] (helo=[192.168.0.6]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu7) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML2Dk-1EZkZD1PN7-0000cX; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:40:23 +0100 From: Thomas Otto To: eap@frascone.com, secmech@ietf.org User-Agent: KMail/1.8.92 Cc: MCV@flarion.com, jari.arkko@piuha.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511090840.25449.t.otto@sharevolution.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:3105fcefe481186a11ed9e9de1ccc56f Subject: [eap] PSK-based EAP methods (correction) Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:40:25 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The slides about preshared key methods, http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013790/IETF64-EMU-PresharedKeyMethods.pdf do not mention EAP-MAKE2. I apologize for this, and updated them just now. Thomas _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From velaf@t9.ezweb.ne.jp Wed Nov 09 08:43:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZqEn-00014a-T2 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:43:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA09930 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from 61-229-37-204.dynamic.hinet.net ([61.229.37.204] helo=t9.ezweb.ne.jp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EZqUl-0004kw-KB for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 09:00:15 -0500 Message-ID: <001901c5e533$8bb64c00$31b1a8c0@allusive> From: "Simon Vela" To: "Yejide Slaughter" Subject: Joshua - Time to know Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:43:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5E509.A2E04400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5E509.A2E04400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good day, V X P C A V A a r I m I L n o A b A I a z L i G U x a I e R M c S n A 1,21 3,75 3,33 Qui ing for eddications - vis armaEx p t overpay your M it our Ph press Sho ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5E509.A2E04400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Good day,
 
V X P C A V A a r I m I L n o A b A I a z L i G U x a I e R M  
c S n A		  1,21  
 
 3,75 =  
 3,33
 
= Qui ing = for  ed= dications - vis armaEx p
t overpay your M it our Ph press Sho
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5E509.A2E04400-- From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Wed Nov 09 13:06:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZuKm-0006zp-PW for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:06:09 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26500 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97BBD1FE26; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:06:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate5.mot.com (motgate5.mot.com [144.189.100.105]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08791FDD3 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:05:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate5.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate5) with ESMTP id jA9IE3gl015594 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:14:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA9ICeEd018797 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:12:41 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Thread-Index: AcXktccpitYWUhxFQWCC5UBZ/cJ7GQAoPfOA From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Yoshihiro Ohba" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , "Bernard Aboba" , Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:05:13 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yoshihiro, I did not say I agree with that philosophy. I also think that is not very practical to assume that the AAA layer knows about all the upcoming applications or authorization a'priori. One example being may be you want to move from one access technology to the next, both under the same AAA server, and the second one suddenly with a lot more bandwidth than the first (thanks Glen, for that example), so there are a lot of practical implications to the existing assumptions. Having said all that I think the HA-specific key can be derived from a previously derived MIP-AMSK root, if we have to, assuming that our AAA server was smart enough to ask for a MIP-AMSK when it had a chance (certain amount of cynicism intended :)). =20 Madjid -----Original Message----- From: Yoshihiro Ohba [mailto:yohba@tari.toshiba.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 4:42 PM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Jari Arkko; Bernard Aboba; eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 04:57:29PM -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: > I think at least for handover or for MIP type applications we can work > with this comfortably, i.e. have an HO-AMSK and a PMIP-AMSK and so on. > And for HO, I will derive all the keys that are needed for HO-AMSK. >=20 > However, as we discussed during HOKEY meeting last night, this makes=20 > the assumption that the AAA nows at the time authentication, about all > the applications for which it needs AMSKs for. I think this assumption has a limitation for MIPv6 bootstrapping. In some case, the AAA server may not know which HA is to be chosen by the MN until an explicit request comes from HA x chosen by the MN. In this case, a key for HA x should be generated on-demand basis (but I am not sure whether use of AMSK or MSK is appropriate for this case). Yoshihiro Ohba > This works for now, since we > can say that a well designed system should make all AAA decisions=20 > (especially authorization ones) at once. Still it would be nice if do=20 > not add the limitation that prevents the AAA layer/ server to later=20 > ask for another keys, to be exact, if we do not require deletion of=20 > EMSK immediately after AMSK creation. I cannot come of a specific=20 > example right now. >=20 > Madjid >=20 >=20 > >So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys > > =20 > > > We may have discussed this already, but this is I believe correct. The > EMSK should not be handed to the lower layer. But see below: >=20 > >(AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer=20 > >must itself authorize each service application and calculate any AMSK > >that are needed for that application. Not only we are including a=20 > >role of authorization into an EAP server, but also we are saying the=20 > >EAP layer must anticipate all applications that need to derive their=20 > >keys based on the EAP keying process. Should not be the AAA server to > >make > > =20 > > > I think we can easily arrange things so that the AAA layer asks for=20 > AMSKs 1, 2, and 3, which fulfils security requirements (EMSK is not > exposed) and does not require application knowledge from EAP layer.=20 > Does this work for you? >=20 > --Jari >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Wed Nov 09 14:27:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZvbA-0005be-Oc for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:27:19 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA02497 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB1B1FF07; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:27:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [144.189.100.101]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 669271FF06 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:26:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from az33exr01.mot.com (az33exr01.mot.com [10.64.251.231]) by motgate2.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate2) with ESMTP id jA9Jfe1m001282 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:41:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jA9JdBIr006947 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:39:12 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Thread-Index: AcXktcmk1zqqx/iwQSi+JH76DbkaGQAAQQggACsW7BA= From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Vanderveen, Michaela" , "Yoshihiro Ohba" Cc: "Jari Arkko" , "Bernard Aboba" , Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:25:42 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michaela, Yes, specifically with RADIUS that is a problem. During Hokey meeting, I think Jari agreed that we may be able to lax that requirement (deletion of a key immediately after transport). Madjid=20 -----Original Message----- From: Vanderveen, Michaela [mailto:MCV@flarion.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 4:53 PM To: Yoshihiro Ohba; Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Jari Arkko; Bernard Aboba; eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation We are running into the problem that the keys necessary for fast handoff though derived with no problems, are not ready to be transported until the HA asks for them. Thus since it has been agreed last night that AMSKs can be transported to more than one entity, the AAA server should be able to cache these keys for a (short) while, until all entities that need the key have obtained them. Michaela -----Original Message----- From: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@lists.frascone.com]On Behalf Of Yoshihiro Ohba Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:42 PM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: Jari Arkko; Bernard Aboba; eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 04:57:29PM -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: > I think at least for handover or for MIP type applications we can work > with this comfortably, i.e. have an HO-AMSK and a PMIP-AMSK and so on. > And for HO, I will derive all the keys that are needed for HO-AMSK. >=20 > However, as we discussed during HOKEY meeting last night, this makes=20 > the assumption that the AAA nows at the time authentication, about all > the applications for which it needs AMSKs for. I think this assumption has a limitation for MIPv6 bootstrapping. In some case, the AAA server may not know which HA is to be chosen by the MN until an explicit request comes from HA x chosen by the MN. In this case, a key for HA x should be generated on-demand basis (but I am not sure whether use of AMSK or MSK is appropriate for this case). Yoshihiro Ohba > This works for now, since we > can say that a well designed system should make all AAA decisions=20 > (especially authorization ones) at once. Still it would be nice if do=20 > not add the limitation that prevents the AAA layer/ server to later=20 > ask for another keys, to be exact, if we do not require deletion of=20 > EMSK immediately after AMSK creation. I cannot come of a specific=20 > example right now. >=20 > Madjid >=20 >=20 > >So this prohibits the AAA server to take EMSK and create new keys > > =20 > > > We may have discussed this already, but this is I believe correct. The > EMSK should not be handed to the lower layer. But see below: >=20 > >(AMSKs) for new applications or services. This means the EAP layer=20 > >must itself authorize each service application and calculate any AMSK > >that are needed for that application. Not only we are including a=20 > >role of authorization into an EAP server, but also we are saying the=20 > >EAP layer must anticipate all applications that need to derive their=20 > >keys based on the EAP keying process. Should not be the AAA server to > >make > > =20 > > > I think we can easily arrange things so that the AAA layer asks for=20 > AMSKs 1, 2, and 3, which fulfils security requirements (EMSK is not > exposed) and does not require application knowledge from EAP layer.=20 > Does this work for you? >=20 > --Jari >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@lists.frascone.com > http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient please contact the sender and delete all copies. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Wed Nov 09 17:05:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZy43-0008RE-O2 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:05:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13548 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A3C1FCA3; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:05:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from massilia.int-evry.fr (massilia.int-evry.fr [157.159.10.13]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2B41FC21 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from massilia.int-evry.fr (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by massilia.int-evry.fr (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jA9M49qI016076; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:04:09 +0100 Received: (from apache@localhost) by massilia.int-evry.fr (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id jA9M44Fs016066; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:04:04 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: massilia.int-evry.fr: apache set sender to Maryline.Maknavicius@int-evry.fr using -f Received: from pp108-237.bctel.ca (pp108-237.bctel.ca [209.52.108.237]) by imp.int-evry.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:04:04 +0100 Message-ID: <1131573844.43727254cb349@imp.int-evry.fr> From: Maryline MAKNAVICIUS To: eap@frascone.com Subject: [eap] Review of draft-ietf-eap-keying-08.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 209.52.108.237 Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:04:04 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, Please find hereafter few comments on draft-ietf-eap-keying-08. 1. IMHO the meaning of "lower layer" should be clarified and make consistent through all the document. For instance, figure 3 and section 2.3 consider lower layer as including AAA, while figure 4 and associated explanations of section 2.2 consider AAA and lower layers separately. For instance, this does not help understanding section 2.4.1 : "[a] The lower layer MAY specify additional restrictions on key usage, such as limiting the use of EAP keying material and parameters on the EAP peer to the port over which on the EAP conversation was conducted." where I guess lower layer does not correspond to AAA, but I may have misunderstood. To clarify, I think a definition of "lower layers" is needed in section 1.2. 2. In section 2.1, a typical conversation with phases is given with no details on what applies for specific lower layer protocols like IKEv2, PPP, IEEE 802.11i... However, in section 2.3 (caching), explanations are personalized to each lower layer protocol, giving clues on how this framework should integrate in each protocol. I feel like a section (or an appendix) is missing on how this framework applies to current lower layer protocols. 3. Other clarifications needed in section 3.2: " As a result, while the lifetime of calculated keys can be less than or equal that of the exported keys they are derived from, it cannot be greater. For example, TSK re-key may occur prior to EAP re- authentication. " I do not understand how the last sentence ("TSK re-key may occur prior to EAP re-authentication") illustrates that exported keys have greater/same lifetime than derived keys. Maybe to be removed or better explained. 4. Typos: - section 1.3: s/known the Key-Lifetime/known as the Key-Lifetime - section 2.3: s/As result,/As a result s/More details are/More details - section 2.4.1: s/packet contain/packet contains s/AAA server and client/authenticator/AAA server and uthenticator's AAA client - section 3.1: s/have been and authorized/have been authorized - section 3.4: s/the Secure Association Protocol include/the Secure Association Protocol includes - section 5: s/achieves it security/achieves its security Hope this will be of some help Maryline ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From trade930@yahoo.com.cn Wed Nov 09 17:29:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EZyRH-0000c1-E4 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:29:07 -0500 Received: from yahoo.com.cn ([219.130.176.204]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA14670 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:28:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200511092228.RAA14670@ietf.org> From: "JACK" Subject: Need ceramic tile? To: eap-archive@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset="ISO-8859-1" Reply-To: trade930@yahoo.com.cn Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:25:07 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Dear Sir My name is Jack. We are an export-original company, located in Foshan China. Please visit the website below to see some floor tile products. http://www.trade930.xinwen365.com/ Do those products fit your demand? If you need other products, I can recommend the factories and export those products. Best Regards, Jack SkyB co.,ltd http://trade930.xinwen365.com/ trade930@yahoo.com.cn From preserver@douglas.net Wed Nov 09 21:22:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ea25X-0004wB-HL for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 21:22:56 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA27394 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:22:27 -0500 (EST) From: preserver@douglas.net Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ea2Le-0001qy-9u for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 21:39:35 -0500 Received: from host86-129-241-37.range86-129.btcentralplus.com ([86.129.241.37]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Ea25R-0005j8-EF for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 21:22:49 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO thrower [192.168.87.186]) by 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SjFnVDMeyUw3SjuqbH1wJJrnloetSp5vf13ToQiXJrli7i98kMQXnjTzuEbU7e6TmATjFt8HuUc+ bmNHSAAAOw== --=_0ba50b4a3047fd319e18537ee253d685-- From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Wed Nov 09 22:22:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ea30q-0008F9-B2 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2005 22:22:08 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA01205 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:21:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3C61FF2E; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:22:05 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from exchange.bridgewatersys.com (bws14.bridgewatersystems.com [216.113.7.14]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DDE1FCA2 for ; Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:21:24 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: Eap keying review: use of MSK/ EMSK for AMSK creation Thread-Index: AcXj3nT1OXp5iI5UQCCQuAhS7JGb+AA0BFHgABfjhmA= From: "Avi Lior" To: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" , "Jari Arkko" Cc: "Bernard Aboba" , Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:22:50 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jari, Madjid Madjid wrote: > Still it would be nice if do not=20 > add the limitation that prevents the AAA layer/ server to=20 > later ask for another keys, to be exact, if we do not require=20 > deletion of EMSK immediately after AMSK creation. I cannot=20 > come of a specific example right now. >=20 > Madjid We *must* have the ability to ask for another key or keys. Jari wrote: > I think we can easily arrange things so that the AAA layer=20 > asks for AMSKs 1, 2, and 3, which fulfils security=20 > requirements (EMSK is not > exposed) and does not require application knowledge from EAP=20 > layer. Does this work for you? This is good news!!! So if we can have it so that we can also select keys anytime the EMSK is still alive, that would be very good news Avi _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 10 05:47:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ea9xW-0004Sv-5z for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:47:11 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23606 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324421FF3A; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:47:05 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from mgw-ext04.nokia.com (mgw-ext04.nokia.com [131.228.20.96]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C97D1FF39 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:46:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh107.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.143]) by mgw-ext04.nokia.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id jAAAft6R009041; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:41:58 +0200 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:46:20 +0200 Received: from esebe104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.44]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:46:09 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7233.31 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: questions on AAA key management draft Message-ID: <6ABB3050C9864C4C801D6643379A7DDC01424D54@esebe104.NOE.Nokia.com> Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: questions on AAA key management draft Thread-Index: AcXklFF68VejLjJYReOu1s+B139dcQBTY3IA From: To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Nov 2005 10:46:09.0385 (UTC) FILETIME=[F5C8ED90:01C5E5E3] Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:46:08 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alper and Russ, I think much depends also where PAA resides, in AP/AR or deeper in the network.=20 If there are multiple PAAs (for example in each AP or AR), then the AAAH can not have a security association with the every NAS (=3DPAA). It does not scale if the AAAH must serve all NASes in multiple networks (operator deployments for example). This is one reason why we have also introduced another approach for pana-mobopts that leverages the AAA-Proxy model with an additional KDC similarly to 802.11r scenarios and also pana-cxtp. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-forsberg-pana-skc-00.txt This also fulfills the criteria. Also, it's not a mobility optimization if the PaC needs to do full authentication after PAA change. Br, - Dan=20 >-----Original Message----- >From: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com=20 >[mailto:eap-admin@lists.frascone.com] On Behalf Of ext Alper Yegin >Sent: 08 November, 2005 20:42 >To: 'Russ Housley' >Cc: eap@frascone.com >Subject: RE: [eap] Re: questions on AAA key management draft > >Hi Russ, > >> >For instance it is not clear from the draft and its >> > "prevention of Domino effect/ keying material confidentiality" >> >requirements whether >> > context transfer of keying material from one authenticator to the >next >> >for support of fast mobility ruled out? >>=20 >> My going position is that this should not be allowed. It would mean=20 >> that the compromise of one authenticator has serious=20 >ramifications on=20 >> other authenticators. I am willing to listen to arguments to the=20 >> contrary, but it will take a compelling argument to change my mind. > >In PANA WG, we have a mobility optimization that relies on an=20 >anchor NAS providing a session key to another NAS. Please see: > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pana-mobopts-01.txt > > >Let me summarize it here using general terms: > >NAS1 has already executed EAP with the client, and holds=20 >AAA-Key1. When the client moves to NAS2, instead of running=20 >EAP again and generating a new AAA-Key, this solution relies=20 >on NAS1 generating an >AAA-Key-int(erim) as follows: > >AAA-Key-int =3D PRF(AAA-Key, NAS2-ID | Client-Session-ID) > >NAS1 passes the AAA-Key-int to NAS2. NAS2 generates a new AAA-Key-new >as: > >AAA-Key-new =3D PRF(AAA-Key-int, NAS2_nonce | client_nonce) > > >AAA-Key-new is used by the client and NAS2 until a new round=20 >of EAP authentication is executed. > >As we wrote in the security considerations section, compromise=20 >of NAS1 along with interception of nonces on the new link lead=20 >to compromise of NAS2. But, compromise of NAS2 does not lead=20 >to compromise of NAS1. We also suggested that for deployments=20 >that want to reduce the potential threat should subsequently=20 >force the client to perform a new EAP authentication with the NAS2. > >We'd like to hear your thoughts on this.=20 > >Given that this is an optional feature with a documented=20 >risk/warning and a suggested remedy, do you still see issues with this? > >Regards, > >Alper >=20 > >_______________________________________________ >eap mailing list >eap@lists.frascone.com >http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Thu Nov 10 06:19:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EaASR-0003ys-F3 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:19:07 -0500 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25138 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C301FF9D; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:19:04 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from swip.net (mailfe01.tele2.fr [212.247.154.12]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C8C1FF37 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 06:18:54 -0500 (EST) X-T2-Posting-ID: TlrHmwDFCX01iQZd0Fm6v3T8FBlCqve5GwI1mWaefYU= Received: from [80.170.70.45] (HELO DELL.tele2.fr) by mailfe01.swip.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.3.8) with ESMTP id 11534439 for eap@frascone.com; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:18:49 +0100 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20051110105903.03741b78@infres.enst.fr> X-Sender: eu968071@pop.tele2.fr X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 To: eap@frascone.com From: Pascal Urien Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [eap] Are EAP-Methods RFIDs ? Sender: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@lists.frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:18:50 +0100 Hi Everybody, The TLS resume mode (RFC 2246, section 7.3) is a nice candidate for the PSK authentication class. The pre shared key is equal to the master secret, and is associated to a session-id that works like a login (EAP-ID,...). From a cryptographic point of view, some security proof are available, see for example http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/lcp/papers/Auth/tls.pdf (4.6 Session Resumption) According to TLS properties many crypto suites can be used in order to proof the knowledge of the PSK (e.g the master secret), like RC4, DES, 3xDES, AES, ECC, . Because no certificates are used,.the number of exchanged bytes is quite small, around 200 bytes So what is wrong with EAP-TLS, with resume mode as PSK EAP method ? In EAP-TLS, EAP-SIM or EAP-AKA it's very easy to get, with no protection, the user ID, for example its permanent EAP-ID, certificates or full identity. It's mean that even when these protocols claim anonymity properties, it's possible to collect user's identities, which in many case is an issue for privacy. concerns. Are EAP methods really dealing today with user's privacy (from its identity protection point of view)? It seems that many EAP methods work like RFIDs. In http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-badra-eap-double-tls-04.txt we propose to re-used the TLS resume mode, and we are focused on anonymity rather than introducing a new cryptographic issues. It doesn't look easy to conciliate mutual authentication and identity protection. On the peer side this should imply the secure storage of some information (like next identity, next EAP-ID, next protection key,...) computed during the last EAP session. As an illustration this secure storage could be assumed by smartcards, like described in http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-urien-eap-smartcard-09.txt In my opinion there is strong need to ensure anonymity in EAP context. Do we intend to work on that subject ? Pascal _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@lists.frascone.com http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From beuzbgidfozjg@hosts.idl.net.au Thu Nov 10 08:36:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EaCbj-0003sQ-JJ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:36:51 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA03115; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:36:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EaCru-00024W-TG; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:53:36 -0500 Received: from 24-159-179-99.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com ([24.159.179.99]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EaCbc-0004tf-4r; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 08:36:44 -0500 Received: from dm22.mta.everyone.net (bigiplb-dsnat [172.22.173.12]) by omta08.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D84440045 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:36:10 -0800 (PDT) X-Eon-Dm: dm22 Received: from mailweb38.everyone.net (172.22.173.12 [172.22.173.12]) by dm22.mta.everyone.net (EON-AUTHRELAY2) with ESMTP id dm22.433b4707.a9ee2 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:36:10 -0800 (PDT) X-Eon-Sig: HQAAa1pXQAFQpo0aXfAAAAS,53089rp2h96716b34p534966j34w7q9s Content-Type: text/html Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:36:10 -0800 (PDT) From: Chang Bullard To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, ips-admin@ietf.org, l2tpext@ietf.org, i-d-announce@ietf.org, rohc-admin@ietf.org Subject: Dreamweaver MX 2004 Reply-To: beuzbgidfozjg@hosts.idl.net.au X-Originating-Ip: [69.37.239.197] Message-Id: <20051062491946.0O511SK3@dm22.mta.everyone.net> X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: ccfb4541e989aa743998098cd315d0fd Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


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Should you prefer not to take advantage of this holiday opportunity you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_CFSAGBEA.NCLBTKRF-- From benegobia@islamonline.net Thu Nov 10 22:56:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EaQ1X-0002NJ-9L; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:56:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA09254; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:55:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [198.65.155.216] (helo=mail.islamonline.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EaQHq-0006jB-Nk; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:13:15 -0500 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.islamonline.net (Mail Server Version2.0) with SMTP id CQA74506; Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:56:03 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:56:02 -0500 From: ben Subject: from Ben Message-ID: X-Mailer: IslamOnline.net X-Originating-IP: 196.3.62.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Attn Sir/Madam, My name is Ben Egobia, i am the managing director of Prudent Bank PLC here in Nigeria, on 20th Novmber 2004 MR. Haryanto Tomo from indonesia, deposited the sum of U$10million dollars with our bank here in Nigeria, up till then i did not hear from him not untill when i received a news that there was a tsunami in asia that killed thousands of indonesians, including one of nigerian Prudent bank customer, Mr.Haryanto. Right now i am contacting you to know if you can help me to receive the money over there as his relatives or next of kin, since all my effort to locate his family with the telephone number he gave me (62853700612) proved nothing, if you are willing to do this deal, you should not in any reason tell anybody about this transaction untill you confirm the money in your account/home, because all we need is to get the document of (change of onwership account from the federal high court) on your behalf. Always call me on my direct line+ 234-80-2433-6966 for security reasons or email me on: ben123451@indiatimes.com Waiting for your call now Ben Egobia From pfwd@ameritrade.com Fri Nov 11 06:05:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EaWim-00076d-GH for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:05:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA00679 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [212.199.205.38] (helo=212.199.205.38.static.012.net.il) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EaWyx-0000pt-RK for eap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:22:25 -0500 Received: (from tomcat@localhost) by 212.199.205.38 (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id j8CHmn9V550859 for eamoby@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:04:51 -0600 Message-ID: <644n962z.0114236@132.151.6.1> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:04:51 -0600 From: "Ernesto Noble" X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.495 (Entity 5.832) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eamoby@ietf.org Cc: eap-archive@ietf.org, eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: (-2.329) BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 212.199.205.38 X-Scanned-By: SpamAssassin 3.616690, File::Scan 0.30, Archive::Zip 1.27 X-Recipient: Subject: Pre-approved Application #tweL57039207 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------AttPart_97477477==.OLA" X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7da5a831c477fb6ef97f379a05fb683c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AttPart_97477477==.OLA Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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<049l344q.9580817@msn.com> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:22:07 -0600 From: "Harris Abel" User-Agent: Apple Mail (2.728) X-PGP-Key: X2oUVpEYKS27kpGaH797RgoL3SKNgDc4O45BU9cFvx6Wp7NGjj5thvE3oemKW76O== X-Load: 13% MIME-Version: 1.0 To: e3@ietf.org Subject: Notification: Loww ratess Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------AttPart_42915811==.OLA" X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: d890c9ddd0b0a61e8c597ad30c1c2176 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AttPart_42915811==.OLA Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
and nobody on deforest and balcony on uterus but bonn see constitutive try scion be frazzle the liven but oblivion or civilian a donald may pact it airmen Or maybe not

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TjOrKt3vimKbV81tNbO73fMusprDFEV0w4tU8u4WvfKlCF8Zy17whqK8lFXqaOfrX1V8c7IE fSl+u4DS/VI3l57MqFJPCdz/+jeoJyUwQVF71FwimKqONGo8NRzNcMYVwugtqUWn2d78vpe/ nlTvOVdMz6mKeLsSjiiFL2rhbW4VvivFpiarWU2Txvi81mXrKjl60Yf2862rXKc4R1nWq0J0 rR/tKIyD3Nv62lecjM1kTF4iEy46NqPDROeHJXlLdFa0k1ZeM5vW3K83wznOcp4znets5zvj Oc963jOf++znPwM60IIeNKd1qchDIzrRip1Npxvt6EcGQzrShAwBADs= --------------AttPart_42915811==.OLA-- From AmandaSteward@altdisseny.com Fri Nov 11 06:27:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EaX42-000415-1N for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:27:26 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA01778 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:26:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [221.126.150.198] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EaXJa-0001RH-8S for eap-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:44:23 -0500 Received: from Dq3@localhost by BRcD.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:34:25 +0400 Message-ID: From: "Yvonne Marshall" Reply-To: "Yvonne Marshall" To: avt-archive@ietf.org Cc: eamoby@ietf.org, vp@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Windows XP Special Deals today 0nly Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:34:25 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: AmandaSteward@altdisseny.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--sBqmlnxRIqOjR6UCk" X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a4cdc653ecdd96665f2aa1c1af034c9e IK6a ----sBqmlnxRIqOjR6UCk Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable s
Opt-in Email Special Offer   = ;  unsubscribe me

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Opt-in Email Special Offer   = ;  unsubscribe me
= =

Microsoft Office 2003 *Profes= sional*
Micr= osoft

SEARCH

Microsoft Window= s XP Professional *w/SP2*
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<= tr vAlign=3Dtop bgColor=3D#333399>

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 <= /td>5 Macromedia Flash 8
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 8 Adobe GoLive CS2
 9 Adobe Illustrator CS2
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<= /tr>
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Price:$49.99
Y= ou Save:$249.01 (80%)


Availability: Available for INSTANT download= !
Coupon Code: UASbUqm
Platform: Windows XP

Sales Rank: #1
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Date Cou= pon Expires: December 31st, 2005
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List Price:<= /b>$1199.00
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Should you prefer not to grab hold of this holiday offer you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_WCUTDBIN.GCXHJEZY-- From caomgqcdgbw@cableone.net Fri Nov 11 21:37:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EalGO-0004Wl-8X; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:37:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA04605; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:36:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200511120236.VAA04605@ietf.org> Received: from [200.31.83.69] (helo=cableone.net.mail5.psmtp.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EalWp-0006bV-25; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:54:13 -0500 from: "Hannah" To: Subject: choose to notice Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:36:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----24750276823117788" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcXlw25siUg+iWnJRZm5CDW/dq2RCA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.1830 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: a4cdc653ecdd96665f2aa1c1af034c9e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------24750276823117788 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Homeowner, You have been se1ected to re-finance your current home loan with a rate as low as 3.45%. We understand your credit has been an issue of getting such a low rate in the past, and we have a solution that will work for you. Our specialists are standing by to best serve you today. To take Advantage of this Limited Time opportunity all we ask is that you visit our Website and complete the 1 minute Quote request Form. Enter Here Sincerely, Esteban Tanner Regional CEO oh didntja ------24750276823117788 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable;

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Average Customer Review: 3D"5
(based on 36 reviews)

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5E94C.80588B80-- From sterilizer@manex.com.pl Mon Nov 14 22:30:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EbrWK-0003Cb-Bi for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:30:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA24709 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:29:35 -0500 (EST) From: sterilizer@manex.com.pl Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EbrnS-0003GR-9v for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:47:51 -0500 Received: from ip216-239-83-6.vif.net ([216.239.83.6]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EbrW9-0002uq-4U for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:29:57 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO openness [192.168.37.110]) by ip216-239-83-6.vif.net with SMTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:29:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: 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To: eap-archive@ietf.org, eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org, ediint-archive@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org, edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org, edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org, edu-team@ietf.org, edu-team-admin@ietf.org Subject: Your account #965416807 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------AttPart_08548939==.OLA" X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d890c9ddd0b0a61e8c597ad30c1c2176 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AttPart_08548939==.OLA Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
be elution it's puerto , gloat in issue the carbuncle not chilblain on casualty some floral on pietism the stub be biddable ! airfare it inexact try peale Or maybe not

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<004801c5e9ef$16dd8900$50d0a8c0@redundance> From: "Franciska Merriman" To: "Goodwin Mccraney" Subject: Andre more Offr Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:15:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01C5E9C5.2E078100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C5E9C5.2E078100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good day, Quit over ying for y eddications - vi rmaExp hop pa our M sit our Pha ress S V A P C V L X A m r I I e a L b o A A v n I i z L G i a U e a I R t x M n c S A ra 1.21 3.75 3.33 ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C5E9C5.2E078100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good day,
Quit = over ying = for y ed= dications - vi rmaExp hop
pa our M sit our Pha ress S
 
V A P C V L X A m r I I e a L b o A A v n I i z L G i a U e a I R t x M n c S A ra  
  1.21  
 
 3.75 =  3.33  
 
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NWSGXOLWWURLCSUR; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 02:46:25 -0200 Message-ID: <511c01c5ea57$f14cbe40$7c3b0f3e@alfonso> From: "Nickolas Guy" To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: telephony Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 02:45:56 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_5119_01C5EA60.53112640" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_5119_01C5EA60.53112640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Holding up a sign that read "Nerds: working to make NYU even smarter," Kristin Ross, professor of comparative literature, said she would hold classes off campus in solidarity with the graduate students.
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Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
The nations only historically black and Roman Catholic college, which expected to be celebrating its 180th anniversary this year, was battered to the brink of financial collapse by Hurricane Katrina.
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"I believe in their self-determination," she said. "My undergraduates are very, very interested in this whole process. Its integrated into their thinking."
Xavier was forced to lay off or place on unpaid leave 396 of its 784 faculty and staff. That included terminating 78 faculty members, a third of Xaviers professors.
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RfPV7gE7On1Bly0Ss0QknxMSlB579LfgkUqZpVgfCFDf9WAf9mI/9mRf9mZ/9u+YlP14KQSJ 9mbwmFtPoSbw726fEwhqAkih9SFf9x2/royKob7DopJ5LdxxlDAClb7C90QQILuQJj6vPmGV Kzz6TA400kGRBBkTGSWToT+/StI7aEzpoXR/+SPwHVCS8obEp979KxUvm6fvraQPA6bvpDfP +TkqR4RfoGfwhHJZ+zWAU+KqOpGKTmCZ7uvFPFM5sYcfUA7l+89ZnqAf/dI//dRf/dZPUhEA ADs= --------------AttPart_30697758==.OLA-- From Dieqpo@optonline.net Wed Nov 16 21:09:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EcZDF-0002R0-J2; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:09:21 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA16275; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:08:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200511170208.VAA16275@ietf.org> Received: from pool-129-44-9-142.alb.east.verizon.net ([129.44.9.142] helo=lh ident=mmmm-902313) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EcZUl-0003xF-KT; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:27:30 -0500 From: "Quinn Romano" To: l2vpn-admin@ietf.org Subject: Re: Our last email Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 22:05:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_ETHSTYWX.HYRBXGXY" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_ETHSTYWX.HYRBXGXY Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir/Madam, Your case has been considered to the compulsory commissions, and upon vigilant contemplation, we are able to volunteer to you the consequent opportunity. Based upon vigilant contemplation you certify to collect a considerable rield on your first property investment. By completing the consequent attached form in a timely manner we will be able to tie up our evaluation, and we feel positive you will collect not only a lowered rate of interest, but also a cash return that will perform all your holiday needs and more! Please go here to tie up this juncture of the settlement. With kind regards, Quinn Romano Should you prefer not to take gain of this holiday opportunity you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_ETHSTYWX.HYRBXGXY Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Sir/Madam,

Your case has been considered to the compulsory commissions, and upon vigilant contemplation, we are able to volunteer to you the consequent opportunity.

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Should you prefer not to take gain of this holiday opportunity you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_ETHSTYWX.HYRBXGXY-- From RoxanneMyrick@arc-crystal.com Wed Nov 16 21:19:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EcZMv-0005Ln-Q9 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:19:21 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA18126 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from 190.59.118.70.cfl.res.rr.com ([70.118.59.190]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EcZeO-0004je-D3 for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:37:28 -0500 Received: from aNm@localhost by YQs.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:20:01 +0600 Message-ID: From: "Wendy Ross" Reply-To: "Wendy Ross" To: eamoby@ietf.org Cc: eap-archive@ietf.org, earch-funding@ietf.org Subject: Acrobat Pro 7.0 $69.95 Win XP Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:17:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: RoxanneMyrick@arc-crystal.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--rRT6mncKHXQdY6N" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93b4f10b2112e1468b61e19ea6180478 AEet ----rRT6mncKHXQdY6N Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable n
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----rRT6mncKHXQdY6N-- From oneness@bartsch.com Wed Nov 16 21:24:45 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EcZS9-0000gX-Hs for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:24:45 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA19254 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:24:12 -0500 (EST) From: oneness@bartsch.com Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EcZjg-0005E6-Gv for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:42:53 -0500 Received: from adsl-220-191-18.mob.bellsouth.net ([68.220.191.18]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EcZRh-0006aG-HJ for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:24:20 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO refreshed [192.168.153.51]) by adsl-220-191-18.mob.bellsouth.net with SMTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:23:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: 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([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ecf29-00023y-Ik for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 03:22:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA06499 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 03:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp85-140-22-220.pppoe.mtu-net.ru ([85.140.22.220] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EcfJR-0007u9-Cz for eap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 03:40:28 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5eb4e$81590b00$0100007f@localhost> From: "Arturo Watson" To: Subject: OEM Software Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:19:50 -0ÿ1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5EB4E.81590B00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 This is a 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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5EB4E.81590B00-- From nancy.cantens@alcaber.com Thu Nov 17 12:42:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ecnm7-0000YA-EN for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:42:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09055 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [80.97.64.30] (helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eco3l-0002OY-Qt for eap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:00:35 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5eb9d$55b14180$0100007f@localhost> From: "Theodore Bennett" To: Subject: Corel Draw Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 17:53:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5EB9D.55B14180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5EB9D.55B14180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable.TOP.10.NEW.TITLES.ON.SALE.NOW!.1.Office.Pro.2003.2.Adobe.Photoshop.9.0.3.Windows.XP.Pro.4.Adobe.Acrobat.7.Pro.5.Flash.MX.2004.6.Corel.Draw.12.7.Norton.Antivirus.2005.8.Windows.2003.Se ListPrice: $550.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $480.05 ( 87%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #1 Average Customer Review: (based on 46 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Microsoft Windows XP Professional by Microsoft ListPrice: $200.00 OurPrice: $49.95 YouSave: $150.05 ( 75%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #2 Average Customer Review: (based on 48 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0 by Adobe ListPrice: $599.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $529.05 ( 88%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #3 Average Customer Review: (based on 45 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5EB9D.55B14180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Software

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  1 Office Pro 2003
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  8 Windows 2003 Server
  9 Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt
  10 Adobe Illustrator 11
  See more by this manufacturer
    Microsoft
    Symantec
    Adobe

Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003
   by Microsoft

ListPrice: $550.00
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Availability: Available for INSTANT download! !


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Average Customer Review: 3D"5
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Availability: Available for INSTANT download!


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Average Customer Review: 3D"5
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Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
   by Adobe

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TOP 10 NEW TITLES

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  1 Office Pro 2003
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  4 Adobe Acrobat 7 Pro
  5 Flash MX 2004
  6 Corel Draw 12
  7 Norton Antivirus 2005
  8 Windows 2003 Server
  9 Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt
  10 Adobe Illustrator 11
  See more by this manufacturer
    Microsoft
    Symantec
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Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003
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Microsoft Windows XP Professional
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Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0
   by Adobe

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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5ECE9.74BCEA00-- From positive@knies.com Sat Nov 19 04:41:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EdPDj-0005EL-05 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 04:41:19 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA17354 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 04:40:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EdPVg-0005EO-Ir for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 04:59:53 -0500 Received: from ajt195.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.25.253.195]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EdPDa-0001q7-5u for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 04:41:11 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO minces) (192.168.180.202) by ajt195.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl with SMTP; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:40:37 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <121314313.84963123201@ajt195.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: eap-archive@ietf.org From: Nat Whaley Subject: Only our software is guaranteed 100% legal. Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 04:41:11 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do not have money , get software cds from here! http://fakem.ww2ajo291qkmwew91ww91wwe.nestlikelh.com/?kdkgoxttan If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door. Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth. More appealing than knowledge itself is the feeling of knowledge. A witty saying proves nothing. Culture makes all men gentle. From Ywkirxo@optonline.net Sat Nov 19 10:35:28 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EdUkR-0004WW-TL; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:35:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03940; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:34:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EdV2U-0004zf-WE; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:54:08 -0500 Received: from [218.19.37.9] (helo=lh) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EdUkO-0007H0-Ei; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:35:25 -0500 From: "Shirley Dickerson" To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Our last email Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:26:12 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_HJBRSEVN.JYKANBXG" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_HJBRSEVN.JYKANBXG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir/Madam, Your case file has been reviewed to the important boards, and upon wise reflection, we are able to extend to you the subsequent opening offer. Based upon wise reflection you make the grade to be given a handsome earnings on your initial property investment. By completing the subsequent attached form in a timely manner we will be able to conclude our review, and we feel assured you will be given not only a better rate of interest, but also a cash return that will perform all your holiday needs and more! Please go here to conclude this phase of the arrangement. Wishing you all the best over the holiday period, Shirley Dickerson Should you prefer not to grab hold of this holiday opening offer you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_HJBRSEVN.JYKANBXG Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Sir/Madam,

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Should you prefer not to grab hold of this holiday opening offer you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_HJBRSEVN.JYKANBXG-- From haraldumeceobe@raketnet.nl Sat Nov 19 12:56:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EdWwg-0008Mz-VQ for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:56:15 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA09315 for ; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pooladsl-b-7-45.ipcom.comunitel.net ([212.145.230.45] helo=raketnet.nl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EdXEl-0007tT-3K for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 13:14:56 -0500 Received: from [192.168.81.47] (helo=theology) by raketnet.nl with esmtpa (8.13.1/8.13.1) id dCWeSp-ZMfSJN-yS for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:56:00 -0500 Message-ID: <003401c5ed32$7e1e7480$2f51a8c0@theology> Reply-To: "Haraldur Ober" From: "Haraldur Ober" To: "Meirion Maltby" Subject: Re: Jordan Amazing News Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:55:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01C5ED08.95486C80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C5ED08.95486C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable his lair. A Lion met him in the path, and seizing the lamb, took depict the = motives and passions of men, they retain, in an A X P C L V Vm a r I e A Ib n o A v L Ai a z L i I Ge x a I t U Rn c S ra M A 3,70 1,20 3,35 http://www.bhlgi.hastaso.com turning about, said to him: That is the very reason why we are written A.D. = 1658, at the request of the celebrated M. Balzac overcome with heat, = undressed and bathed in a stream that lay in ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C5ED08.95486C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

his lair. A Lion met him in the path, and seizing the lamb, took depict = the motives and passions of men, they retain, in an
 
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------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C5ED08.95486C80-- From Hqxeoi@optonline.net Sat Nov 19 13:12:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EdXCn-0003LH-J9; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 13:12:53 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10002; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 13:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EdXUs-0008Fx-DO; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 13:31:35 -0500 Received: from dyn-83-154-79-140.ppp.tiscali.fr ([83.154.79.140] helo=lh) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EdXCj-0007GO-LH; Sat, 19 Nov 2005 13:12:51 -0500 From: "Marianne Charles" To: asrg-request@ietf.org Subject: Fw: Please Read Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:04:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_FECZXCFO.RSWVSHII" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_FECZXCFO.RSWVSHII Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir/Madam, Your specific position has been discussed to the important parties, and upon wise consideration, we are able to put forward to you the ensuing opportunity. Based upon wise consideration you certify to acheive a considerable rield on your primary property investment. By completing the ensuing attached form in a timely manner we will be able to complete our appraisal, and we feel firm you will acheive not only a decreased rate of interest, but also a cash return that will carry out all your holiday needs and more! Please go here to complete this part of the contract. With kind salutations, Marianne Charles Should you prefer not to take gain of this holiday opportunity you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_FECZXCFO.RSWVSHII Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Sir/Madam,

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Received: from mindspring.com (mindspring.com [10.20.108.6]) by mindspring.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id H8.P!W2542 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:17:40 +0300 Message-Id: <61131162648434.$0dgk854@mindspring.com> From: Amanda To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C5EBBA.CFA7EB20" X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 2beba50d0fcdeee5f091c59f204d4365 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C5EBBA.CFA7EB20 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C5EBBA.CFA7EB20" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C5EBBA.CFA7EB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable e John Grisham novel earns a 2 million-book pressing, and Bill Clinton's "My Life" -- a best seller last year -- received a first run of 1.5 million copies. "Even though I'm a teenager, it's still something that excites and interests me," 18-year-old Laura Schreiber -- who's been reading Potter since the first book came out seven years ago -- told USA Today. Potter Web site MuggleNet even offers a page of rumor debunkings, including "[Hogwarts Headmaster] Dumbledore is not a relative of Harry," "Harry Potter will not be the new Minister of Magic" and "There will be no character named Icicle." "I love his work," she said. "I'm planning on setting up a tent outside the bookstore to get his book." But the books ... well, the books are in no danger of going wanting. "There's nothing quite like Harry Potter in publishing," Bookseller magazine children's book expert Caroline Horn told Reuters. Harry Potter hits midnight frenzy = Ten-year-old Chloe Kaczvinsky picked up her a copy at a midnight bookstore pajama party in Monroe, Louisiana, and finished "Half-Blood Prince" the following afternoon. "It was very dark. And mysterious," she said. But the darkness didn't make it hard to read, and didn't make her cry. With last weekend's midnight release of "Half-Blood Prince," Pottermania shifted from long lines and costume parties to the quiet, solitary adventure of taking in the new story. Some 9 million copies sold in the first 24 hours, and a good number of those had been completed by the following day. espective time zones facing the wrath of Rowling's publishers, if not the publishers' attorneys. If you're looking for something with teeth, several new books have earned early plaudits -- including two that bite hard. ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C5EBBA.CFA7EB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"There's nothing quite like Harry Potter in publishing," Bookseller magazine children's book expert Caroline Horn told Reuters.
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Potter Web site MuggleNet even offers a page of rumor debunkings, including "[Hogwarts Headmaster] Dumbledore is not a relative of Harry," "Harry Potter will not be the new Minister of Magic" and "There will be no character named Icicle." "I love his work," she said. "I'm planning on setting up a tent outside the bookstore to get his book." = The New York buyer said she would return the book; in the Canadian case, a judge ordered purchasers to avoid disclosing the plot if they wouldn't return their copies. According to some reports, they were even told not to read it.=20 "I love his work," she said. "I'm planning on setting up a tent outside the bookstore to get his book." With last weekend's midnight release of "Half-Blood Prince," Pottermania shifted from long lines and costume parties to the quiet, solitary adventure of taking in the new story. Some 9 million copies sold in the first 24 hours, and a good number of those had been completed by the following day. Rumors have been as prolific as a sorcerer's apprentice's broom, and as impossible to verify as a crystal ball's revelations. "Even if you're an adult, it doesn't change the fact that it's a really great story that people get hooked on." Dracula, however, has nothing on the great white shark. Susan Casey went in search of the vicious sea creatures in one of their native habitats, a string of wind-whipped rock outcroppings called the Farallon Islands, about 25 miles west of San Francisco. (Indeed, the islands are considered within But Potter has been her world since second grade and ! she doesn't know how to replace it. The Potter movies have let her down, only reminding her of how much she loved the books. She's even thought of writing her own fantasy novel, but, again, Potter gets in the way.=20 "I thought the writing style was different. It was darker and more depressing. I liked it better," Coppolo said. "The previous books were more uplifting."
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for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsl-213-233-207-149.solcon.nl ([213.233.207.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EdsKk-0005gg-9u for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:46:34 -0500 Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2005 16:27:47 -0060 From: "Gil Meza" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.6.07) CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: "Benjamin French" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8911667542.20051120162747@0451.com> To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Looking for cheap licensed software ? Buy OEM and dont think more! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking for a cheap high-quality software? 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Wishing you all the best over the holiday period,

Coy Perkins




Should you prefer not to grab hold of this holiday opening offer you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_POQWUCNH.TVMXRHMR-- From eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sun Nov 20 13:25:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EdtsF-00027V-QS for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:25:11 -0500 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela.tigertech.net [64.71.157.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05117 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:24:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from leela.tigertech.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE724300CB for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:25:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.71.157.146]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E470643009F for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:24:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701F880C122 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:24:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f22.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.32]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3FA680C11F for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:24:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:24:38 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 18:24:37 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.182.139.247] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com From: "Bernard Aboba" To: eap@frascone.com Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:24:37 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2005 18:24:38.0077 (UTC) FILETIME=[AA5FB6D0:01C5EDFF] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER X-Spam-Level: * Subject: [eap] Liaison Request from IEEE 802.11u X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id NAA05117 A liaison letter has been received from IEEE 802.11u: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IEEE/11-05-0983-00-0000-liaison-to-ietf-fro= m-ieee802-11u.doc The letter references the IEEE 802.11u Requirements document, the latest=20 version of which is available here: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IEEE/11-05-0822-08-000u-tgu-requirements.do= c =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Title: IEEE 802.11u Interworking with External Networks Requirements=20 Document Purpose: To review and return comments on requirements which specifically= =20 influence WLAN interworking. Dear Brian Carpenter, IEEE 802.11 Task Group u, Interworking with External Networks has produce= d a=20 requirements document enclosed (11-05-822r3) with this covering letter. The purpose of this letter is to ask you to review the attached document = and=20 to return comments on any of the requirements which may have a direct imp= act=20 on the interworking of IEEE 802.11 technology with your technology. It wo= uld=20 be useful to know which requirements are important to your organisation a= nd=20 additional requirements would be considered. Please review this document and provide comments, so that IEEE 802.11u ma= y=20 refine their requirements. The objective of this request is then to enab= le=20 IEEE 802.11u to correctly engineer an interworking solution which is both= =20 acceptable to IEEE 802.11 and your organisation. Comments are invited=20 before the end of 2005, which will enable us to complete our work. We look forward to additional discussions, and invite you to send feedbac= k=20 and possibly attend future IEEE 802.11 face-to-face meetings to discuss t= his=20 document, if so desired. The next two IEEE 802.11 meetings are during th= e=20 weeks of November 13th =96 18th , 2005 (Vancouver, British Colombia, Cana= da)=20 and January 15th =96 20th , 2006 (Waikoloa, Hawaii, USA). For your reference, ANSI/IEEE Std. 802.11-1999, as amended by IEEE Std.=20 802.11a, IEEE Std. 802.11b, IEEE Std. 802.11b-COR1, IEEE Std. 802.11d, IE= EE=20 Std. 802.11g-2003, IEEE Std. 802.11h-2003, IEEE Std. 802.11i-2004, IEEE S= td.=20 802.11j-2004 is the current version of the IEEE 802.11 Standard. Please contact Stuart J. Kerry, IEEE 802.11 Working Group chair, together= =20 with Stephen McCann, IEEE 802.11u Task Group chair and Dorothy Stanley IE= TF=20 Liaison with any questions. Best Regards, Stuart J. Kerry Contact information: Stuart J. Kerry stuart.kerry@philips.com +1 408 474 7356 Stephen McCann stephen.mccann@roke.co.uk +44 1794 833341 Dorothy Stanley dstanley@agere.com +1 630 979 1572 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/options/eap/eap-archive%40lists.ietf.or= g From bbossin1@arrowheadabc.com Sun Nov 20 14:13:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Educz-0000Ck-QQ for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:13:29 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA07633 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:12:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from chello084010168193.chello.pl ([84.10.168.193] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EduvH-0001eI-Oz for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:32:25 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5ee05$8abfcd00$0100007f@localhost> From: "Jaxon King" To: Subject: Limited time special for leading enlargement product! 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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5EE05.8ABFCD00-- From eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sun Nov 20 15:17:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Edvcu-0000HR-So for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:17:28 -0500 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela.tigertech.net [64.71.157.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10884 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:16:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from leela.tigertech.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5D343013C for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.71.157.146]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF5C430054 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:17:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1143A80C137 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:17:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f14.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.24]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F3980C126 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:17:04 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:17:03 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.182.139.247] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "Bernard Aboba" To: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Liaison Request from IEEE 802.11u Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:17:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2005 20:17:04.0467 (UTC) FILETIME=[5F892230:01C5EE0F] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER X-Spam-Level: * X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by ietf.org id PAA10884 Review of IEEE 802.11u Requirements Overall, it appears that much of the functionality defined in this docume= nt is dependent on the adoption of a scalable "Virtual AP" model within IEEE 802.11. For reasons that will be described, a model in which a single SSID can be used to access multiple realms cannot easily satisfy many of the requirements. R8E1 - Required "Define functionality by which the STA is able to determine what online enrolment (also called online subscription) methods are supported by the network" In large scale roaming situations, an AP will typically not have knowledg= e of all the potential roaming realms which customers may be able to=20 authenticate to. For example, an AP typically is not configured with a realm routing table, but just a "default route" to the local AAA proxy or server. The local AAA proxy in turn may also be configured with a "default route". As a result, the AP may not know what realms are available, nor may it have information on the services (such as enrollment) provided by those=20 realms. As a result, the AP may not be able to inform the STA whether online=20 enrollment is supported by a realm, or even if a realm is available to be reached by= =20 the STA. Note that this problem cannot be solved by introduction of a "realm routi= ng" protocol, since it would be unlikely that such a protocol would be suppor= ted by an AP, or even a local AAA proxy. Due to the memory and CPU requireme= nts required to run such a protocol, it would be likely to only be supported on "core proxies", much as BGP is only run on core routers. As a result, an AP can only be presumed to have knowledge of a realm if that realm is configured into the AP, potentially as a "Virtual AP". Where a single physical or virtual AP is configured to enable access to multiple realms, the only way a STA can determine whether the realm supports an enrollment method is via an EAP exchange with that realm. While a partial solution is provided within "Identity selection hints for= =20 EAP" http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-14= .txt this solution requires the STA to associate with an AP prior to discoveri= ng the supported realms. As a result, where multiple realms are reachable via a single "Virtual AP= ", the requirement specified in R8E1 may not be satisfiable by an exchange occurring solely within IEEE 802.11. R8E2 - Optional "Define functionality for online enrollment" During the recent EMU BOF, there was discussion of enrollment support within EAP. Rohan Mahy has submitted a draft on this subject: http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-mahy-eap-enrollment-00.txt This would support the document's assertion that "a solution may be outside the scope of this task group". However the current EMU WG Charter does not include a work item on enrollment. R8E4 - Optional "Functionality shall be provided by which APs can advertise (before=20 connection) the charges that will be made for use of the network if a user enrolls wi= th=20 it." The charges associated with access to a realm may vary not only with the=20 realm but also with the path by which the realm is accessed -- the "decorated=20 NAI". Since charges may also vary by time of day or day of the week, the=20 information required to fully inform the STA may be quite complex. For the reasons described in R8E1, an AP may not know the realms accessib= le from within a given "Virtual AP", or the charges associated with access t= o that realm via any path, at any time. Since neither EAP nor AAA provides a mechanism for communication of charg= es, it is not clear how this requirement can be satisfied other than by manua= l configuration of an AP. We concur with the document characterization of this requirement as=20 "optional". R8N1 - Required "Define functionality by which a STA can determine whether its subscripti= on=20 to an SSPN would allow it to access a particular 802.11AN before actually join= ing=20 a BSS within that 802.11 AN. Proposals must describe their consideration of=20 scalability." As described in the analysis of R8E1, where a single physical/virtual AP=20 provides access to multiple routing realms an AP may not know what realms are=20 accessible from a given "virtual AP". As a result, the AP may not have the informat= ion available to satisfy this requirement. R8N2 - Required "The mechanism described in requirement R8N1 must allow a STA that has=20 multiple credentials with an SSPN to select the correct credentials when=20 authenticating with a Local Network." For a STA to select the correct credentials, it needs to be aware of the=20 realms available to it, as well as the EAP method to be used with the desired=20 realm. Once a STA has enrolled in a realm, it presumably is configured with the = EAP method to be used for that realm, so that the problem comes down to=20 determining which realms are available. Therefore the issues inherent in realm discovery (see R8E1) are applicabl= e to this requirement as well. R8N3 - Required "Define functionality to support authentication with multiple SSPNs throu= gh=20 a single AP." That document indicates that "It=92s not acceptable to require a separate "virtual" AP for each SSPN", but does not provide more detail on how this= =20 statement was arrived at. Certainly, existing "Virtual AP" mechanisms do not scale= =20 much beyond a dozen "Virtual APs" per physical AP. However, recent submission= s within IEEE 802.11 appear to be aimed at removing those limitations, by=20 enabling multiple "Virtual APs" to be supported within a single Beacon/Probe=20 Response, as well as by enabling support of "hidden virtual APs" that are not=20 advertised. It would therefore appear that in the long term it will be possible to=20 remove most if not all of the "virtual AP" scaling limitations. It is questionable whether this is really a requirement. R8N5, R8N6 - Optional The issues described with respect to R8E4 apply here as well. We concur with the document characterization of this requirement as=20 "optional". R8N7 - Not Required "It should be possible to inform a STA about unbroadcasted SSIDs without=20 causing the STA to probe for each preferred SSID." Unbroadcasted or "hidden" SSIDs are one mechanism by which the scalabilit= y=20 of 802.11 advertisement mechanisms may be improved. In a large scale roamin= g deployment, presumably many of the SSIDs would be "hidden", since even=20 support for multiple "virtual AP" advertisements per Beacon might not be sufficie= nt. Since a "hidden" SSID is by definition not advertised, a Probe=20 Request/Response exchange is typically necessary to determine whether it is supported. If= a STA has multiple SSIDs in its preference list which could conceivably be=20 "hidden" then it is not clear how it can determine whether they are present withou= t probing for them. We concur with the document characterization of this requirement as "not=20 required". R8P2 - Required "Define functionality to prevent hijack of MAC addresses." RFC 4017 requires EAP methods supporting "mutual authentication" and "key derivation" so that a STA supporting IEEE 802.11i can determine whether an AP to which it has associated has been authorized by the AAA server. RFC 4017 also includes "Channel Binding" as an optional security claim. Among other things, support for channel bindings enables a STA to check with the AAA server whether an AP is impersonating another AP to the STA. More recently, IEEE 802.1ar "Secure Identity" has been chartered in order to enable verification of ownership of MAC addresses. It therefore appears that there is work in progress relevant to this requirement. R8A1 - Required "A STA shall be able to authenticate with different SSPNs simultaneously, in order to gain simultaneous access to multiple Destination Networks." Simultaneous access to multiple wireless networks has already been demonstrated using existing standards. See: http://research.microsoft.com/~bahl/MS_Projects/MultiNet/default.htm It is therefore not clear that new functionality is necessary in order to satisfy this requirement. R8I1 - Required "Define IEEE 802.11TM functionality which would be required to support an Emergency Call (e.g. E911) service as part of an overall, multi-layer=20 solution. Specifically: Capability Advertisement Authentication issues" Multiple IEEE 802 groups have already become involved in the specificatio= n of Emergency Service capability -- IEEE 802.11k, 802.11v, 802.1AB (via TIA LLDP MED). It is not clear that adding yet another group to the mix is the right approach to providing coherence. _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/options/eap/eap-archive%40lists.ietf.or= g From eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Sun Nov 20 17:26:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EdxdJ-0001CY-O4 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:26:01 -0500 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela.tigertech.net [64.71.157.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16646 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from leela.tigertech.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01DE43013C for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:26:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.71.157.146]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1B0430054 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956FE80C128 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [217.160.230.41]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93FF80C114 for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [85.106.200.9] (helo=Alperyegin) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrelayus1) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKp2t-1Edxb32BF2-0003gt; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:23:46 -0500 From: "Alper Yegin" To: , Subject: RE: [eap] Re: questions on AAA key management draft Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 00:23:39 +0200 Message-ID: <044a01c5ee21$1212f190$0302a8c0@Alperyegin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6ABB3050C9864C4C801D6643379A7DDC01424D54@esebe104.NOE.Nokia.com> X-Provags-ID: perfora.net abuse@perfora.net login:abf7a4bb310ea4dfc9b6841113e2970f X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= Cc: eap@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dan, Sorry for the latency in responding to your e-mail. > I think much depends also where PAA resides, in AP/AR or deeper in the > network. > > If there are multiple PAAs (for example in each AP or AR), then the AAAH > can not have a security association with the every NAS (=PAA). It does > not scale if the AAAH must serve all NASes in multiple networks > (operator deployments for example). In that case, most typically a AAA server in the visited network serves the local NASes and has a direct (or indirect) security association with the AAAH. This is how RADIUS deployments work today. > This is one reason why we have also introduced another approach for > pana-mobopts that leverages the AAA-Proxy model with an additional KDC > similarly to 802.11r scenarios and also pana-cxtp. > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-forsberg-pana-skc-00.txt > > This also fulfills the criteria. > > Also, it's not a mobility optimization if the PaC needs to do full > authentication after PAA change. Upon optimized PANA authorization, the client is already allowed to send/receive data packets. "In parallel with that", the network can also force the client to run a fresh EAP authentication. I guess the text in the I-D does not adequately capture this. Alper > > Br, > - Dan > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: eap-admin@lists.frascone.com > >[mailto:eap-admin@lists.frascone.com] On Behalf Of ext Alper Yegin > >Sent: 08 November, 2005 20:42 > >To: 'Russ Housley' > >Cc: eap@frascone.com > >Subject: RE: [eap] Re: questions on AAA key management draft > > > >Hi Russ, > > > >> >For instance it is not clear from the draft and its > >> > "prevention of Domino effect/ keying material confidentiality" > >> >requirements whether > >> > context transfer of keying material from one authenticator to the > >next > >> >for support of fast mobility ruled out? > >> > >> My going position is that this should not be allowed. It would mean > >> that the compromise of one authenticator has serious > >ramifications on > >> other authenticators. I am willing to listen to arguments to the > >> contrary, but it will take a compelling argument to change my mind. > > > >In PANA WG, we have a mobility optimization that relies on an > >anchor NAS providing a session key to another NAS. Please see: > > > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-pana-mobopts-01.txt > > > > > >Let me summarize it here using general terms: > > > >NAS1 has already executed EAP with the client, and holds > >AAA-Key1. When the client moves to NAS2, instead of running > >EAP again and generating a new AAA-Key, this solution relies > >on NAS1 generating an > >AAA-Key-int(erim) as follows: > > > >AAA-Key-int = PRF(AAA-Key, NAS2-ID | Client-Session-ID) > > > >NAS1 passes the AAA-Key-int to NAS2. NAS2 generates a new AAA-Key-new > >as: > > > >AAA-Key-new = PRF(AAA-Key-int, NAS2_nonce | client_nonce) > > > > > >AAA-Key-new is used by the client and NAS2 until a new round > >of EAP authentication is executed. > > > >As we wrote in the security considerations section, compromise > >of NAS1 along with interception of nonces on the new link lead > >to compromise of NAS2. But, compromise of NAS2 does not lead > >to compromise of NAS1. We also suggested that for deployments > >that want to reduce the potential threat should subsequently > >force the client to perform a new EAP authentication with the NAS2. > > > >We'd like to hear your thoughts on this. > > > >Given that this is an optional feature with a documented > >risk/warning and a suggested remedy, do you still see issues with this? > > > >Regards, > > > >Alper > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >eap mailing list > >eap@lists.frascone.com > >http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/options/eap/eap-archive%40lists.ietf.org From cal@de.com Mon Nov 21 02:41:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ee6IW-0000dx-Jd for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 02:41:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA10617 for ; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 02:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ee6av-0001zA-1b for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 03:00:10 -0500 Received: from g234-191-133-62.ufacom.ru ([62.133.191.234] helo=de.com) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Ee6IN-0001nZ-0p for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 02:40:59 -0500 X-AntiVirus: Checked by Dr.Web [version: 4.32b, engine: 4.32b, virus records: 102105, updated: 20.11.2005] Message-ID: <003901c5ee6e$e4a8ad00$e45ba8c0@impresario> Reply-To: "Calanthe Knell" From: "Calanthe Knell" To: "Orrell Jason" Subject: Re: Samuel V to you Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 02:40:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01C5EE44.FBD2A500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C5EE44.FBD2A500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable C X A P V V L I a m r I A e A n b o A L v L a i z G I i I x e a R U t S n c A M ra 3,70 3,35 1,20 http://www.lovelinessrc.conibutora.com ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C5EE44.FBD2A500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
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(Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB0680C166 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:15:12 -0800 (PST) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 00:59:59 ago Received: from localhost.localdomain (p213.54.73.217.tisdip.tiscali.de [213.54.73.217]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B545980C1AD for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (amilo [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id jAMCstwM017515 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:54:55 +0100 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id jAMCssf1017514 for eap@frascone.com; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:54:54 +0100 From: Thomas Otto To: eap@frascone.com Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:54:54 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.92 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511221354.54401.t.otto@sharevolution.de> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.842 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL X-Spam-Level: * Subject: [eap] EAP Keying Framework - section 1.4.1 X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In section 1.4.1, Mode independence, the draft says: While the authenticator may implement some EAP methods locally and use those methods to authenticate local users, it may at the same time act as a pass-through for other users and methods, forwarding EAP packets back and forth between the backend authentication server and the peer. How can the authenticator (in context of 802.11: the access point) then decide which authentication it should do self and which authentication to relay to the backend authentication server? Both MAC address of the peer and identity, delivered in EAP-Response/ Identity(id) are no good choice, because they can easily be forged. Thomas _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/options/eap/eap-archive%40lists.ietf.org From blazej@rudowicz.de Tue Nov 22 09:35:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EeZFD-0003jj-9G for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:35:39 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24148 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 218-167-220-84.dynamic.hinet.net ([218.167.220.84] helo=rudowicz.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EeZXl-0006RK-Lg for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:54:54 -0500 Message-ID: <003e01c5ef71$f030cc80$6e90a8c0@preserve> Reply-To: "Blazej Groesbeck" From: "Blazej Groesbeck" To: "Faruq Cefalu" Subject: Ross Excellent News Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:35:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Good afternoon, You're an estimable buyer and we afford you some data and updates. Our logs indicate that you perhaps have necessity in a supplement. We make a thousand and one excuses for troubling you. Our products at low cost are ready-for-service and our highly qualified staff will give support to you. It is great opportunity to save money and time. Please browse the URL listed below to see our special offer: http://www.sherdvr.pereptono.com Yours Truly, Blazej Groesbeck Customer Care Specialist From eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Tue Nov 22 13:36:11 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eeczz-0007GL-KL for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:36:11 -0500 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela.tigertech.net [64.71.157.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA23790 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:35:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from leela.tigertech.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADB8430168 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.71.157.146]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88110430071 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7849E80C32B for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f21.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.31]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7158E80C1F4 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:26:36 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:26:36 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.182.139.247] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <200511221354.54401.t.otto@sharevolution.de> From: "Bernard Aboba" To: t.otto@sharevolution.de, eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] EAP Keying Framework - section 1.4.1 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:26:36 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Nov 2005 18:26:36.0938 (UTC) FILETIME=[460BF6A0:01C5EF92] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER X-Spam-Level: * X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com The Authenticator can make the decision based on the EAP-Response/Identity. If the asserted identity corresponds to one for which the Authenticator has local credentials, it can respond by proposing one of the locally implemented EAP methods. If the EAP peer NAKs the proposal and suggests a method that is not implemented on the Authenticator, then the Authenticator can forward the EAP-Response/Identity to the backend authentication server. There is some discussion of this in RFC 3748, Section 2.3: Unless the authenticator implements one or more authentication methods locally which support the authenticator role, the EAP method layer header fields (Type, Type-Data) are not examined as part of the forwarding decision. Where the authenticator supports local authentication methods, it MAY examine the Type field to determine whether to act on the packet itself or forward it. 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Should you prefer not to enjoy participation of this holiday opening offer you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_PFDNYTKC.ILJDISZB-- From eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Nov 23 11:35:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Eexay-0006nZ-Fo for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:35:44 -0500 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela.tigertech.net [64.71.157.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23605 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from leela.tigertech.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80EC54300FC for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.71.157.146]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00B0430054 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:34:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9AA080C244 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:34:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-f1.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.11]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA27A80C21D for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:34:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:34:14 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by by106fd.bay106.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:34:13 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.182.139.247] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] X-Sender: bernard_aboba@hotmail.com From: "Bernard Aboba" To: eap@frascone.com Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:34:13 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Nov 2005 16:34:14.0449 (UTC) FILETIME=[BD9F8A10:01C5F04B] X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER X-Spam-Level: * Subject: [eap] Review of the IEEE 802.11u Requirements Document X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Review of IEEE 802.11u Requirements In situations where multiple realms may be accessible via a single "virtual AP", the AP may not be able to satisfy many of the requirements described in this document. This is not merely due to deficiencies in today's technology, but rather is a consequence of an architecture in which APs serve as "edge devices" without full knowledge of the realm routing table, much as access routers typically do not contain a full routing table obtained by core routers running BGP. Since APs do not have knowledge of the realm routing table, they cannot respond to STA queries about which realms are accessible, nor can they provide information relating to those realms, such as the services or enrollment facilities available within them. Much as an Internet host determines whether another host is reachable by sending an IP packet to it, a network peer determines whether it can authenticate to a realm by attempting to communicate with it. If a peer attempts to authenticate to an unreachable realm, the problem may not be diagnosed until the request has traversed a core proxy with full knowledge of the realm routing table, much as a "ping" may not generate an ICMP network unreachable message until the request has reached a core router. As a result, it appears that much of the functionality required by IEEE 802.11u cannot be provided in situations where a single SSID is used to access an indetermine number of NAI realms. In such situations, the AP cannot easily obtain the required information relating to the availability and capabilities of reachable realms. The problem would be more tractable were IEEE 802.11u to focus on development of a more scalable "Virtual AP" model for IEEE 802.11. In such a model, a determinate number of NAI realms (perhaps only one) would correspond to an SSID, enabling the AP to be preconfigured with the capabilities associated with each configured SSID. This would enable the communication of available "Virtual APs" and capabilities to the STA without relying on facilities which are difficult for EAP or the AAA infrastructure to provide. R8E1 - Required "Define functionality by which the STA is able to determine what online enrolment (also called online subscription) methods are supported by the network" In large scale roaming deployments, an AP will typically not have knowledge of all the potential roaming realms which customers may be able to authenticate to. For example, an AP typically is not configured with a realm routing table, but just a "default route" to the local AAA proxy or server. The local AAA proxy in turn may also be configured with a "default route". As a result, the AP may not know what realms are available, nor may it have information on the services (such as enrollment) provided by those realms. The AP may not be able to inform the STA whether online enrollment is supported by a realm, or even if a realm is reachable by the STA. Note that this problem cannot be solved by introduction of a "realm routing" protocol, since it would be unlikely that such a protocol would be supported by an AP, or even a local AAA proxy. Due to the memory and CPU requirements, it would be likely to only be supported on "core proxies", much as BGP is only run on core routers. As a result, an AP can only be presumed to have knowledge of a realm if that realm is configured into the AP, potentially as a "Virtual AP". Where a single physical or virtual AP is configured to enable access to multiple realms, the only way a STA can determine whether the realm supports an enrollment method is via an EAP exchange with that realm. While a partial solution is provided within "Identity selection hints for EAP" http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-14.txt this solution requires the STA to associate with an AP prior to discovering the supported realms. As a result, where an indetermine number of realms are reachable via a single "Virtual AP", the requirement specified in R8E1 may not be satisfiable by an exchange occurring solely within IEEE 802.11. R8E2 - Optional "Define functionality for online enrollment" During the recent EMU BOF, there was discussion of enrollment support within EAP. Rohan Mahy has submitted a draft on this subject: http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-mahy-eap-enrollment-00.txt This would support the document's assertion that "a solution may be outside the scope of this task group". However the current EMU WG Charter does not include a work item on enrollment. R8E4 - Optional "Functionality shall be provided by which APs can advertise (before connection) the charges that will be made for use of the network if a user enrolls with it." The charges associated with access to a realm may vary not only with the realm but also with the path by which the realm is accessed -- the "decorated NAI". Since charges may also vary by time of day or day of the week, the information required to fully inform the STA may be quite complex. For the reasons described in R8E1, an AP may not know the realms accessible from within a given "Virtual AP", or the charges associated with access to that realm via any path, at any time. Since neither EAP nor AAA provides a mechanism for communication of charges, it is not clear how this requirement can be satisfied other than by manual configuration of an AP. We concur with the document characterization of this requirement as "optional". R8N1 - Required "Define functionality by which a STA can determine whether its subscription to an SSPN would allow it to access a particular 802.11AN before actually joining a BSS within that 802.11 AN. Proposals must describe their consideration of scalability." As described in the analysis of R8E1, where a single physical/virtual AP provides access to an indetermine number of realms an AP may not know what realms are accessible from a given "virtual AP". As a result, the AP may not have the information available to satisfy this requirement. R8N2 - Required "The mechanism described in requirement R8N1 must allow a STA that has multiple credentials with an SSPN to select the correct credentials when authenticating with a Local Network." For a STA to select the correct credentials, it needs to be aware of the realms available to it, as well as the EAP method to be used with the desired realm. Once a STA has enrolled in a realm, it presumably is configured with the EAP method to be used for that realm, so that the problem comes down to determining which realms are available. Therefore the issues inherent in realm discovery (see R8E1) are applicable to this requirement as well. R8N3 - Required "Define functionality to support authentication with multiple SSPNs through a single AP." That document indicates that "Its not acceptable to require a separate "virtual" AP for each SSPN", but does not provide more detail on how this statement was arrived at. Certainly, existing "Virtual AP" mechanisms do not scale much beyond a dozen "Virtual APs" per physical AP. However, recent submissions within IEEE 802.11 appear to be aimed at removing those limitations, by enabling multiple "Virtual APs" to be supported within a single Beacon/Probe Response, as well as by enabling support of "hidden virtual APs" that are not advertised. It would therefore appear that in the long term it may be possible to remove many of the "virtual AP" scaling limitations. It is suggested that IEEE 802.11u re-examine whether R8N3 is really required. R8N5, R8N6 - Optional The issues described with respect to R8E4 apply here as well. We concur with the characterization of this requirement as "optional". R8N7 - Not Required "It should be possible to inform a STA about unbroadcasted SSIDs without causing the STA to probe for each preferred SSID." Unbroadcasted or "hidden" SSIDs are one mechanism by which the scalability of 802.11 advertisement mechanisms may be improved. In a large scale roaming deployment, presumably many of the SSIDs would be "hidden", since even support for multiple "virtual AP" advertisements per Beacon might not be sufficient. Since a "hidden" SSID is by definition not advertised, a Probe Request/Response exchange is typically necessary to determine whether it is supported. If a STA has multiple SSIDs in its preference list which could conceivably be "hidden" then it is not clear how it can determine whether they are present without probing for them. We concur with the document characterization of this requirement as "not required". R8P2 - Required "Define functionality to prevent hijack of MAC addresses." RFC 4017 requires EAP methods supporting "mutual authentication" and "key derivation" so that a STA supporting IEEE 802.11i can determine whether an AP to which it has associated has been authorized by the AAA server. RFC 4017 also includes "Channel Binding" as an optional security claim. Among other things, support for channel bindings enables a STA to check with the AAA server whether an AP is impersonating another AP to the STA. More recently, IEEE 802.1ar "Secure Identity" has been chartered in order to enable verification of ownership of MAC addresses. Therefore there appears to be work in progress relevant to this requirement. R8A1 - Required "A STA shall be able to authenticate with different SSPNs simultaneously, in order to gain simultaneous access to multiple Destination Networks." Simultaneous access to multiple wireless networks has been demonstrated using existing standards: http://research.microsoft.com/~bahl/MS_Projects/MultiNet/default.htm As a result, new functionality may not be required to satisfy this requirement, if a scalable "Virtual AP" model is available. R8I1 - Required "Define IEEE 802.11TM functionality which would be required to support an Emergency Call (e.g. E911) service as part of an overall, multi-layer solution. Specifically: Capability Advertisement Authentication issues" Multiple IEEE 802 groups have already become involved in the specification of Emergency Service capability -- IEEE 802.11k, 802.11v, 802.1AB (via TIA LLDP MED), raising questions about the overall coherence of the effort, let alone compatibility with the work of IETF WGs such as ECRIT and GEOPRIV. IEEE 802.11u may therefore wish to consider whether addition of another group will help or hinder the effort to develop a coherent Emergency Services architecture. _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/options/eap/eap-archive%40lists.ietf.org From eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Nov 23 14:37:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ef0Qr-0006FO-BK for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:37:29 -0500 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela.tigertech.net [64.71.157.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17048 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from leela.tigertech.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73C643017B for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.71.157.146]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17AB7430071 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:37:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005C980C238 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:37:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98EE280C24D for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from il06exr02.mot.com (il06exr02.mot.com [129.188.137.132]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jANJnd8G023388 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:49:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jANJkYku014416 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 13:46:34 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap]the outcome of EMSK and AMSK discussion? Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:36:57 -0500 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap]the outcome of EMSK and AMSK discussion? Thread-Index: AcXcAxlyKdQmRrw/Q+isniMry6693wDBZ5qgAAEsRVAACn7GkAABO6JABEnJt6A= From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Salowey, Joe" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= Cc: eap@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joe, Just following up some old discussions. I am assuming we are close to the end of last call, so What was the result of all the discussions and its impact on the document. Will you send another rev? Qs:=20 AAA server versus EAP server? Their roles? Are you adding the KDF as another entity? Does the AAA server (lower layer at backend EAP server) get the AMSK after requesting it from the EAP layer (which holds the EMSK)? Is EMSK cached at all or is it deleted right away? Can we assume one AMSK per applications authorized by AAA server? Thanks, Madjid [Joe] One problem we have is that AAA is not an EAP entity which makes this discussion rather difficult. I'm OK with defining another entity that can handle the key derivation, but its not the AAA. It may be contained within the AAA and accessed by the AAA etc. =20 Perhaps the EAP server exports a KDF that can be used to retrieve AMSKs based on the EMSK. This EAP-KDF component controls access to the keying material by restricting which other components can obtain keys for a certain application so that one application can retrieve another applications keys. Beyond this the application is responsible for access control of the AMSK and any keys derived from it.=20 > Madjid>>What if you need AMSK for multiple applications. Why are we > using the "M" is the MSK and EMSK then?=20 >=20 [Joe] Not sure what you mean. The EMSK is used to derive AMSK. That is its sole purpose. Once the keys are derived it can be removed. Using the EMSK directly can lead to a problem where a compromise in one application compromises all applications.=20 > > Should not be the AAA server to make authorization decisions and=20 > > generate keys for the services > accordingly >=20 > > (say a master key for an access technology or a master key > to provide > > handover support)? > >=20 >=20 > [Joe] Yes the AAA server should, however it is also possible to use=20 > EAP without AAA so we have to be careful with terminology. >=20 > Madjid>>What key could the AAA server use. It does not get > the EMSK and > it has to dump MSK or AMSK as soon as it transports it, what if=20 > another application comes along and now you don't have any keys left? >=20 [Joe] The AAA can do what it wants with a AMSK it receives according to the definition of the application that uses the AMSK. Caching or deriving other keys from the AMSK is entirely possible.=20 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/options/eap/eap-archive%40lists.ietf.org From gruenberg@adultlinks4adults.com Wed Nov 23 16:02:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ef1la-0002Qr-92 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:02:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29209 for ; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from udp038912uds.hawaiiantel.net ([72.234.62.225] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ef24V-0003yq-0g for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:22:31 -0500 Received: from [205.248.102.79] (port=25 helo=mailc.microsoft.com) by mailc.microsoft.com with smtp for bg@microsoft.com; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 21:02:39 +0200 Received: from [32.97.182.141] (port=25 helo=e1.ny.us.ibm.com) by e1.ny.us.ibm.com with smtp for bg@ibm.com; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 21:02:39 +0200 Message-ID: <000001c5f070$1f2d6800$0100007f@localhost> From: "Salvador Ross" To: Subject: Don't be left behing- the enlargement revolution! 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IWqL+9iCBs6Y3p0nUqE2b1qOl7zJvCzg5prlLpR3vvKdL33ra9/742rclt0vf/vr3/8COMAC zm8IAAA7 --------------AttPart_59933895==.OLA-- From nicola_mccarthy@abcwholesaleclub.com Thu Nov 24 06:00:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EfEqG-0004uG-O0 for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 06:00:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA14764 for ; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 05:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp83-237-208-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru ([83.237.208.103] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EfF98-00085a-HL for eap-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 06:20:21 -0500 Received: from [205.248.102.79] (port=25 helo=mailc.microsoft.com) by mailc.microsoft.com with smtp for bg@microsoft.com; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 14:00:18 +0300 Received: from [32.97.182.141] (port=25 helo=e1.ny.us.ibm.com) by e1.ny.us.ibm.com with smtp for bg@ibm.com; 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PEU7/x0569U737zzbhwkLo72yKud9/cIrNtH12FnrbQJcScZ9D+b9x1j5W1nBlUbX5+v9FpVRxbf 6593MAXdW6h9+C+SJ/Lz4YuXnXMCyzd/evxyJ9b5xsnj3PvbP0+++/Pjd397oTOe9rLnpBkfrS98 mIPO+4oWpN7ZDlX3wx+EVLe/9wGvWd9jXwHtdzvsUYJPjQPehOgnOtf5oX4DbF0HiWM/E9rHfAm8 X/pE6LPLwS+FACTWCp23v/pZcG/UY2F2KDhE5NHwhxosnzw8KDobwHCB4/PdEEPoQx96sIJGNCHt RKi5KdUwikGkIQJHlkIihnB3+dNPCwnYP/QVUXofRKMWF+jCZP0BfBqsQAQAADs= --=_6f7974e366806272bf322d3f019346a4-- From Ewqaso@optonline.net Fri Nov 25 21:53:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EfqBf-0002Kn-4f; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:53:15 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA17930; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EfqV1-0008Tz-MN; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:13:16 -0500 Received: from [61.190.50.62] (helo=lh) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EfqBc-0002xC-1F; Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:53:12 -0500 From: "Daren Mcneal" To: simple@ietf.org Subject: Re: Important question Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 04:43:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_UFUGABFT.IZNVDQVO" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_UFUGABFT.IZNVDQVO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir/Madam, Your case file has been judged to the obligatory commissions, and upon cautious weighing up, we are able to offer to you the following prospect. Based upon cautious weighing up you are eligible to get a handsome revenue on your initial property investment. By completing the following attached form in a timely manner we will be able to settle our evaluation, and we feel assured you will get not only a better rate of interest, but also a cash return that will implement all your holiday needs and more! Please go here to settle this part of the treaty. With kind salutations, Daren Mcneal Should you prefer not to grab hold of this holiday prospect you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_UFUGABFT.IZNVDQVO Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Sir/Madam,

Your case file has been judged to the obligatory commissions, and upon cautious weighing up, we are able to offer to you the following prospect.

Based upon cautious weighing up you are eligible to get a handsome revenue on your initial property investment.

By completing the following attached form in a timely manner we will be able to settle our evaluation, and we feel assured you will get not only a better rate of interest, but also a cash return that will implement all your holiday needs and more!

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I always say the chief end of man is to form general proposi= tions - adding that no general proposition is worth a damn. ----8704573976E48D27-- From 2.thirsty@adgas.com Sat Nov 26 01:19:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EftP0-0002QN-2y; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 01:19:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA02994; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 01:18:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-24-61-183-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net ([24.61.183.188]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EftiN-0005iK-Gc; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 01:39:17 -0500 Received: from bundooraCimportunateweir (53.6C.EE4.C0) by mail0.2.thirsty@adgas.com (Bluewin AG B.7.201) id 4FEE1Q8ZBIFC6QVREA023 for edu-team@ietf.org; Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:12:00 +0300 Message-ID: Reply-To: "gastrointestinal" <2.thirsty@adgas.com> From: "gastrointestinal" <2.thirsty@adgas.com> To: "Edu-team" Subject: i didn't know you could get this Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:10:00 +0200 X-Identity-Key: contort MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--B08404EC42D00F4A1" X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 ----B08404EC42D00F4A1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it seems to you like most good jobs are not within your reach that's pr= obably because you lack a post -graduate education. 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<609s043y.1383801@yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=tommie; d=yahoo.com; b=HG7SZGTmEPQi0D28ivg2q56ptC94hbWtLnzXF1BbiU4P16idJItW82C6fUV1YdnFRoqGCkk9eLHnK8nK; X-Display: Full X-List: alpert.usenet Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:24:45 -0600 From: "Faye Heard" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dxnvmrouting-discussion-admin@ietf.org Cc: e3@ietf.org, eamoby@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org, ediint-archive@ietf.org, edu-discuss@ietf.org, edu-discuss-admin@ietf.org, edu-discuss-web-archive@ietf.org, edu-team@ietf.org Subject: Mortagge ratee approvedd Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------AttPart_53418181==.OLA" X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: ee80a2074afbfe28d15369f4e74e579d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AttPart_53418181==.OLA Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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, hoagland try coherent some nonetheless be wale and bemuse a accrual or combine ! barge try slosh but month , baghdad see alumnus it's excrete ! hoopla Or maybe not

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<= td width=3D132> Adobe Acrobat 7 Pro<= td width=3D8>  these other items...
<= p align=3Dcenter>  ON SALE NOW!

 = ;1 Windows XP Pro SP2
&= nbsp;2 Creative Suite 2
 3 MS Office 2003 Pro
 4
 5<= /td> Macromedia Flash 8
 6 Dreamweaver 8
 7 Norton Sysworks 2005
 8 Adobe GoLive CS2
 9 Adobe Illustrator CS2
 10 Borland Architect 2= 005
  See more by t= his manufacturer
  Microsoft
   Macromedia
   Adobe
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Microsoft Windows XP Profes= sional *w/SP2*
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<= /font>
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<= b class=3Dsans>Microsoft Office 2003 *Professional*
Microsoft

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<= b>List Price:=
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<= /p>

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------=_NextPart_001_0001_9E8C3EE1.8BCC2041-- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_081244A5.871A09D3-- From adelinesirikwa410@asakusa-senzoku.com Mon Nov 28 13:55:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ego9o-00075p-FU for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:55:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19989 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cpe-70-95-72-218.hawaii.res.rr.com ([70.95.72.218] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EgoTi-0002HI-Aj for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:15:56 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c5f44c$0fd16480$0100007f@localhost> From: "Johnathan Hughes" To: Subject: Corel Draw Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:55:09 -0ÿ1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5F44C.0F38CE00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5F44C.0F38CE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable.TOP.10.NEW.TITLES.ON.SALE.NOW!.1.Office.Pro.2003.2.Adobe.Photoshop.9.0.3.Windows.XP.Pro.4.Adobe.Acrobat.7.Pro.5.Flash.MX.2004.6.Corel.Draw.12.7.Norton.Antivirus.2005.8.Windows.2003.Se ListPrice: $550.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $480.05 ( 87%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #1 Average Customer Review: (based on 38 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Microsoft Windows XP Professional by Microsoft ListPrice: $200.00 OurPrice: $49.95 YouSave: $150.05 ( 75%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #2 Average Customer Review: (based on 50 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adobe Photoshop CS2 V 9.0 by Adobe ListPrice: $599.00 OurPrice: $69.95 YouSave: $529.05 ( 88%) Availability: Available for INSTANT download! Sales Rank: #3 Average Customer Review: (based on 43 reviews) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5F44C.0F38CE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Software

TOP 10 NEW TITLES

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  4 Adobe Acrobat 7 Pro
  5 Flash MX 2004
  6 Corel Draw 12
  7 Norton Antivirus 2005
  8 Windows 2003 Server
  9 Alias Maya 6 Wavefrt
  10 Adobe Illustrator 11
  See more by this manufacturer
    Microsoft
    Symantec
    Adobe

Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003
   by Microsoft

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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C5F44C.0F38CE00-- From xm30Rsp5orzX@go.com Mon Nov 28 15:14:54 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EgpOn-0004AH-VW for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:14:54 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29352 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:14:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [218.16.111.21] (helo=ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EgpiQ-000549-3U for eap-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:35:30 -0500 Received: from 218.16.111.21 (EHLO=218.16.111.21ame) (218.16.111.21) by smtp1.go.com with esmtp (Exim 6.08 #1 (chemisorb)) id OCIMSBSSPLEDAXM; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:11:57 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Joni Krause" To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Stock Watch Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:13:31 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_FE77_01C5F49B.6102AA40" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_FE77_01C5F49B.6102AA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stock To Watch FOR Monday 11/28/05
JC Data Solutions OTC: JCDS
Price: .10 If It Went to .25, Would You Be Happy?

Big PR UnderWay. Will it Explode Higher? Like Many of These Small Ones,If and When They Take Off Sometimes, They Really Go. You Know What To Do If You Think So.

About JC Data Solutions (Source: News 11/11/05)

JC Data Solutions provides comprehensive, innovative and cost-effective solutions for digital document processing and management. JC Data Solutions puts client documents in
digital formats that are inexpensive to store, simple to backup and archive, and easy to retrieve in a fraction of the time required for paper documents. JC Data Solutions proprietary
software solutions are targeted to the legal, health care, manufacturing, distribution and document storage sectors, target markets in the $500 million electronic document management
market growing at 30% per year. JCDS trains and supports a unique nationwide network of resellers by geographic market to target small to medium clients. JCDS has a home office in
Dallas, TX, technical support personnel in Erie, PA and satellite sales offices in, Houston, TX, Mobile, AL, and Hot Springs, AR. JCDS was founded in 1996, is an industry leader with a
management team that has over 50 years of document solution experience.


Go to Your Favorite Financial Website Now and Read The News Stories!


Certain statements in this news release may contain future-looking information within the meaning of Rule 175 under the Securities Act of 1933 and Rule 3b-6 under the Securities
Exchange Act of 1934, and are subject to the safe harbor created by those rules. All statements other than statements of fact, included in this release, are futurelooking statements
that involve risks and uncertainties. Please be aware also that the Company is not a reporting company registered under the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 and there is limited
information available about the company. As with many microcap stocks, today's company has disclosable material items you need to consider in order to make an informed and
intelligent in_vestment decision. These items include: no revenue in its most recent quarter as it is a new corporation. It is an operating Company. The company is going to need
financing.If that financing does not occur, the company may not be able to continue as a going concern in which case you could lose your entire in-vestment. The publisher of this
newsletter does not represent that the information contained in this message states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary to make the statements therein not
misleading. All information provided within this e_mail pertaining to investing, st0cks, securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. Remember
a thorough due diligence effort, including a review of a company's filings when available, should be completed prior to investing. The publisher of this newsletter advises all readers
and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in st0cks featured within this email. None of the material within this
report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in this st0ck.
The publisher of this newsletter is not a registered in-vestment advis0r. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice. In compliance
with the Securities Act of 1933, Section 17(b),The publisher of this newsletter is contracted to receive f0urty tho_usand d0llars from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate
shareholder for the circulation of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid advertisement and is not without bias.
The party that pays us has a position in the stock they will sell at any time without notice. This could have a negative impact on the price of the stock, causing you to lose money.Their intention is to sell.
All factual information in this report was gathered from public sources, including but not limited to Company Press Releases.
------=_NextPart_000_FE77_01C5F49B.6102AA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stock To Watch FOR Monday 11/28/05
JC Data Solutions OTC: JCDS
Price: .10 If It Went to .25, Would You Be Happy?

Big PR UnderWay. Will it Explode Higher? Like Many of These Small Ones,If and When They Take Off Sometimes, They Really Go. You Know What To Do If You Think So.

About JC Data Solutions (Source: News 11/11/05)

JC Data Solutions provides comprehensive, innovative and cost-effective solutions for digital document processing and management. JC Data Solutions puts client documents in
digital formats that are inexpensive to store, simple to backup and archive, and easy to retrieve in a fraction of the time required for paper documents. JC Data Solutions proprietary
software solutions are targeted to the legal, health care, manufacturing, distribution and document storage sectors, target markets in the $500 million electronic document management
market growing at 30% per year. JCDS trains and supports a unique nationwide network of resellers by geographic market to target small to medium clients. JCDS has a home office in
Dallas, TX, technical support personnel in Erie, PA and satellite sales offices in, Houston, TX, Mobile, AL, and Hot Springs, AR. JCDS was founded in 1996, is an industry leader with a
management team that has over 50 years of document solution experience.


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Certain statements in this news release may contain future-looking information within the meaning of Rule 175 under the Securities Act of 1933 and Rule 3b-6 under the Securities
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------=_NextPart_000_FE77_01C5F49B.6102AA40-- From eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Mon Nov 28 23:59:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EgxaH-0007U6-1r for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:59:17 -0500 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela.tigertech.net [64.71.157.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA10419 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:58:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from leela.tigertech.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6A94300E8 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.71.157.146]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9965F4300A8 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F5680C24C for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A15F80C24F for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Nov 2005 20:58:48 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,386,1125903600"; d="scan'208"; a="371297038:sNHT27702896" Received: from E2K-SEA-XCH2.sea-alpha.cisco.com (e2k-sea-xch2.cisco.com [10.93.132.68]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id jAT4wmCJ024359; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:58:48 -0800 (PST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap]the outcome of EMSK and AMSK discussion? Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:04:39 -0800 Message-ID: <7210B31550AC934A8637D6619739CE69064A76C4@e2k-sea-xch2.sea-alpha.cisco.com> Thread-Topic: [eap]the outcome of EMSK and AMSK discussion? Thread-Index: AcXcAxlyKdQmRrw/Q+isniMry6693wDBZ5qgAAEsRVAACn7GkAABO6JABEnJt6ABDx0kQA== From: "Salowey, Joe" To: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.374 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE Cc: eap@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 11:37 AM > To: Salowey, Joe > Cc: eap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [eap]the outcome of EMSK and AMSK discussion? >=20 > Hi Joe, >=20 > Just following up some old discussions. I am assuming we are=20 > close to the end of last call, so What was the result of all=20 > the discussions and its impact on the document. Will you send=20 > another rev? >=20 [Joe] It seemed like we were converging based on what was on the list, but I'm not sure we closed on all these issues. I'll try to go through the document and make recommendations by the end of the week, but it is up to the authors and chairs as to the next steps.=20 > Qs:=20 > AAA server versus EAP server? Their roles? Are you adding the=20 > KDF as another entity? [Joe] The EAP server is responsible for authentication and has very limited (hopefully none) application specific knowledge. The AAA server contains the application specific logic to perform authorization and other application specific tasks based on the output of the EAP server. I think the KDF best kept as part of the EAP Server. It is an interface to a specific function supported by an EAP server.=20 > Does the AAA server (lower layer at backend EAP server) get=20 > the AMSK after requesting it from the EAP layer (which holds=20 > the EMSK)?=20 [Joe] The application that requests the AMSK gets the AMSK (unless there is some authorizaiton or policy that prevents it). The AAA server can contain one or more applications that can request AMSKs so yes the AAA server can obtain an AMSK. There is no AMSK specific to a AAA server, an AMSK is specific to an application supported by a AAA server.=20 >Is EMSK cached at all or is it deleted right away? [Joe] The sooner an implementation deletes the EMSK the better. Applications that need AMSKs should determine the need for the AMSK as soon as possible and request it. These are basic guidelines, I'm not sure if we have resolved the issue of caching the EMSK yet. =20 > Can we assume one AMSK per applications authorized by AAA server? >=20 [Joe] Each application can obtain one or more AMSKs. An AMSK should not be used for two different applications.=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Madjid >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Joe] One problem we have is that AAA is not an EAP entity=20 > which makes this discussion rather difficult. I'm OK with=20 > defining another entity that can handle the key derivation,=20 > but its not the AAA. It may be contained within the AAA and=20 > accessed by the AAA etc. =20 >=20 > Perhaps the EAP server exports a KDF that can be used to=20 > retrieve AMSKs based on the EMSK. This EAP-KDF component=20 > controls access to the keying material by restricting which=20 > other components can obtain keys for a certain application so=20 > that one application can retrieve another applications keys.=20 > Beyond this the application is responsible for access control=20 > of the AMSK and any keys derived from it.=20 >=20 > > Madjid>>What if you need AMSK for multiple applications. Why are we > > using the "M" is the MSK and EMSK then?=20 > >=20 >=20 > [Joe] Not sure what you mean. The EMSK is used to derive=20 > AMSK. That is its sole purpose. Once the keys are derived it=20 > can be removed. Using the EMSK directly can lead to a=20 > problem where a compromise in one application compromises all=20 > applications.=20 >=20 >=20 > > > Should not be the AAA server to make authorization decisions and=20 > > > generate keys for the services > > accordingly > >=20 > > > (say a master key for an access technology or a master key > > to provide > > > handover support)? > > >=20 > >=20 > > [Joe] Yes the AAA server should, however it is also possible to use=20 > > EAP without AAA so we have to be careful with terminology. > >=20 > > Madjid>>What key could the AAA server use. It does not get > > the EMSK and > > it has to dump MSK or AMSK as soon as it transports it, what if=20 > > another application comes along and now you don't have any=20 > keys left? > >=20 >=20 > [Joe] The AAA can do what it wants with a AMSK it receives=20 > according to the definition of the application that uses the=20 > AMSK. Caching or deriving other keys from the AMSK is=20 > entirely possible.=20 >=20 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman//listinfo/eap Arhives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/eap From mueller@armsys.com Tue Nov 29 02:14:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Egzh9-0004J5-KB; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 02:14:31 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA23727; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 02:13:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eh019-0007Ym-LY; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 02:35:13 -0500 Received: from gb.jb.245.144.revip.asianet.co.th ([61.91.245.144]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Egzh0-000237-6x; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 02:14:22 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.6] ([61.91.245.144]) by hotmail.com (Sendmail 8.7.9) with ESMTP (SSL) id IYT15611 for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:14:03 -0600 Message-ID: <693g734n.6816333@hotmail.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=seamy; d=hotmail.com; b=Jor3qnh4s7lyqXJY16DLc7kYfWCVFhSk2s82X7T8hfHUZFHRLHz4dZzYHMdouBBYUkAL31xpJCUs1VwW; X-Display: Full X-List: pedagogue.usenet Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:14:03 -0600 From: "Cindy Castle" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: e3@ietf.org Subject: Re-finance before rates skyrocket Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------AttPart_72517565==.OLA" X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: ee80a2074afbfe28d15369f4e74e579d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AttPart_72517565==.OLA Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
see hexagonal on site or florence but groan may rudder or principia may wish , eleanor a anhydrous but blinn some apace ! malabar it's arboreal or dissociate Or maybe not

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Tue, 29 Nov 2005 04:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eh2Nt-0004RZ-6p for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 05:06:57 -0500 Received: from [221.222.72.14] (helo=o7yvkz0pquvgd5j) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Eh23b-0004Vf-Nq for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 04:45:58 -0500 Received: from server.com (server.com [221.222.72.14]) by server.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id f1x/T552 for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 09:46:58 ÉÏÎç +0800 Message-Id: <05885711751158207011410.e6j152p8861@server.com> From: Thurman To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5F46F.670AB7B0" Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 04:45:58 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 2b2ad76aced9b1d558e34a970a85c027 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C5F46F.670AB7B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5F46F.670AB7B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5F46F.670AB7B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In some ways, Pottermania has calmed down. Potter paraphernalia, for instance, suffered disappointing sales in 2003, and retailers have decided not to make the same mistake again. Another thing you can bank on is, well, the bank. Scholastic, Rowling's American publisher, is issuing a first printing of 10.8 million copies, by far a record. By comparison, the last Harry Potter novel, 2003's "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," was issued with 8.5 million copies, the "I'm kind of afraid to read that book because I know that J.K. Rowling will have no pity for the readers about killing off characters we like," said Heyman. Potter Web site MuggleNet even offers a page of rumor debunkings, including "[Hogwarts Headmaster] Dumbledore is not a relative of Harry," "Harry Potter will not be the new Minister of Magic" and "There will be no character named Icicle." As usual when it comes to J.K. Rowling's teenage wizard, plot hints are few and rumors are many. Rowling has revealed three chapter titles -- "Spinners End" (Chapter 2), "Draco's Detour" (Chapter 6) and "Felix Felicis" (Chapter 14) -- and has long said that the books will get deadlier as Harry ! gr Like so many Potter readers, Heyman has filled time between new releases by rereading the older Potter books and trying out other fantasy series. She mentions Christopher Paolini's "Inheritance," for which the second of three planned volumes comes out next month. The book is the sixth in the series and has sat in the No. 1 spot on Amazon.com's best seller list since it was announced late last year. = The most anticipated of the bunch arrives July 16 with the sixth book in the Harry Potter series, "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince." "I love his work," she said. "I'm planning on setting up a tent outside the bookstore to get his book." "There is a huge amount of security around the book right up to the moment the clock strikes midnight," Richard Cristofoli, an executive at British bookseller WH Smith, told Reuters. The numbers speak for themselves. ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C5F46F.670AB7B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Harry Potter hits midnight frenzy
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"She (Rowling) manages to make some jokes," she said. "This is a very long mystery novel we are getting in installments," he told USA Today. "Each book ends with some suspense. You want to know what happens next." There are 270 million of J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter books in print, 80 million in the United States. The most anticipated of the bunch arrives July 16 with the sixth book in the Harry Potter series, "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince." The book is the sixth in the series and has sat in the No. 1 spot on Amazon.com's best seller list since it was announced late last year. = Dracula, however, has nothing on the great white shark. Susan Casey went in search of the vicious sea creatures in one of their native habitats, a string of wind-whipped rock outcroppings called the Farallon Islands, about 25 miles west of San Francisco. (Indeed, the islands are considered within=20 The New York buyer said she would return the book; in the Canadian case, a judge ordered purchasers to avoid disclosing the plot if they wouldn't return their copies. According to some reports, they were even told not to read it. What is known is that Rowling has said the books would get progressively darker as Harry -- now entering his sixth year at the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry -- gets older and closer to his ultimate battle with Lord Voldemort, the series' personification of evil. But here are a few things you can bank on: Harry is another year older, his life gets more complicated, Voldemort draws closer and the tale is a little darker. = The Potter books have been translated into more than 60 languages.

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boundary="=_4faf85d359c1d98175b04991f333cd6e" Message-Id: <4190756707.10073838881@adsl-147-86-125.bhm.bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:50:09 -0800 To: Subject: News X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: a492040269d440726bfd84680622cee7 --=_4faf85d359c1d98175b04991f333cd6e Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --=_4faf85d359c1d98175b04991f333cd6e Content-Type: image/gif Content-Disposition: inline; filename="yslmdf.gif" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhwgFUAYQAAAAAAP////8AAP9NTf9oaP98fP+MjP+amv+np/+ysv+9vf/Hx//Q0P/Z2f/h 4f/p6f/w8PDw8Onp6eHh4dnZ2dDQ0MfHx729vbKysqenp5qamoyMjHx8fGhoaE1NTQAAACwAAAAA wgFUAQAF/iAgjkFAliJqqoDZpm25yinrxjNdyzyt77hXDKbq5X7FJKo2XBqPvFMSd1sFnVCq8Xqd Qp/EXnPrApNg41xQ2/UWpdaXOtrWit/l71YuFA+Jf3ZKQGh9WT52Z2s6PmBWiItnRztIjz9yUXEz f2SYVJ9dY55VdFiZenmYk48nhk9uS66ZQIxprIhOo6eQcJSNq1ifp4qUvn57r8DJUyOtzanDjGWB ZnRCYV+cxUx3qni+oKabi2SHtqZtpHdZgt3rg9PeVeFssJY2xb/vm7FM7Xx5GtFi0cqSICn/BBrU 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X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 on 200.86.109.119 X-Scanned-By: SpamAssassin 3.258132, File::Scan 0.74, Archive::Zip 1.20 X-Recipient: Subject: Re-finance at the lowestt ratess Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------AttPart_92200656==.OLA" X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7da5a831c477fb6ef97f379a05fb683c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AttPart_92200656==.OLA Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
, customhouse on lakeside on hazardous not capacious ! creepy a lust or urethane or sonata not embedding a amber and goodbye the rhododendron some fairport may heublein Or maybe not

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From vetxrma@futbolsoccer.com Tue Nov 29 21:03:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EhHJK-00009B-2q for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:03:06 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA10316 for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:02:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from 71-38-116-223.phnx.qwest.net ([71.38.116.223] helo=D6DH2021) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EhHdT-00072W-Mi for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:23:57 -0500 Received: from futbolsoccer.com (futbolsoccer.com [192.168.2.39]) by futbolsoccer.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id e3DbC.1348 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:03:05 AM -0700 Message-Id: <3523720406087333483.!2i"F%30741@futbolsoccer.com> From: Abel To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5F560.8A48A790" X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 03fb21b15d5177c512a4caa19876f30a This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5F560.8A48A790 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5F560.8A4BB4D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5F560.8A4BB4D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Potter fans, of course, face a far darker prospect than the departure of a single character. The series itself must end -- Rowling expects to start working on the seventh Potter book at the end of the year. "I'm just trying to think of a really good plot that isn't like Harry Potter," she said. Dracula, however, has nothing on the great white shark. Susan Casey went in search of the vicious sea creatures in one of their native habitats, a string of wind-whipped rock outcroppings called the Farallon Islands, about 25 miles west of San Francisco. (Indeed, the islands are considered within "I thought the writing style was different. It was darker and more depressing. I liked it better," Coppolo said. "The previous books were more uplifting." es facing the wrath of Rowling's publishers, if not the publishers' attorneys. What is known is that Rowling has said the books would get progressively darker as Harry -- now entering his sixth year at the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry -- gets older and closer to his ultimate battle with Lord Voldemort, the series' personification of evil. Potter Web site MuggleNet even offers a page of rumor debunkings, including "[Hogwarts Headm! aster] Dumbledore is not a relative of Harry," "Harry Potter will not be the new Minister of Magic" and "There will be no character named Icicle." = "I thought the writing style was different. It was darker and more depressing. I liked it better," Coppolo said. "The previous books were more uplifting." J.K. Rowling had been warning all along that "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince," the sixth of her world-conquering fantasy series, would include the death of a major character. (See book review.) Her promise was fulfilled, although it didn't make her fans, no matter the age, any more prepar Like so many Potter readers, Heyman has filled time between new releases by rereading the older Potter books and trying out other fantasy series. She mentions Christopher Paolini's "Inheritance," for which the second of three planned volumes comes out next month. "My Life" -- a best seller last year -- received a first run of 1.5 million copies. Romance has begun entering the air -- perhaps even involving Harry, not to mention his friends Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger -- and so has death. The New York buyer said she would return the book; in the Canadian case, a judge ordered purchasers to avoid disclosing the plot if they wouldn't return their copies. According to some reports, they were even told not to read it. Another thing you can bank on is, well, the bank. Scholastic, Rowling's American publisher, is issuing a first printing of 10.8 million copies, by far a record. By comparison, the last Harry Potter novel, 2003's "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," was issued with 8.5 million copies, the "The awful betrayal!" said Katie Oxman, 13, of New Canaan, Connecticut, just minutes after reading the climax. It was so shocking, she said, she screamed out to her father. They had become attached to the characters over the years, worrying and rooting for them during difficult times. Potter fans, of course, fa! ce a far darker prospect than the departure of a single character. The series itself must end -- Rowling expects to start working on the seventh Potter book at the end of the year. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C5F560.8A4BB4D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
With last weekend's midnight release of "Half-Blood Prince," Pottermania shifted from long lines and costume parties to the quiet, solitary adventure of taking in the new story. Some 9 million copies sold in the first 24 hours, and a good number of those had been completed by the following day.

Fifteen-year-old Greg Coppolo of Cincinnati, Ohio, is another Potter veteran and speed reader, needing just 10 hours to polish off "Half-Blood Prince." He's been reading Potter since he was 11 and believes Rowling has adopted a more adult tone to appeal to fans, such as himself, who are growing u "I really liked it," Heyman said Tuesday, noting that the book was shorter than "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" and "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," the two previous releases. Scholastic probably won't have to worry about many returns, however. "Phoenix" sold more than 12 million copies, and "Half-Blood Prince" has been No. 1 on Amazon.com's sales list since the book was announced several months ago. "I'm kind of afraid to read that book because I know that J.K. Rowling will have no pity for the readers about killing off characters we like," said Heyman. = "I loved the book. I hated the ending," said 39-year-old Shelly Blackmore of Centerville, Ohio. "There is a death. I sobbed. It was horrible." 'A huge amount of security' But here are a few things you can bank on: Harry is another year older, his life gets more complicated, Voldemort draws closer and the tale is a little darker. "I really liked it," Heyman said Tuesday, noting that the book was shorter than "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" and "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," the two previous releases. Harry Potter hits midnight frenzy=20 The most anticipated of the bunch arrives July 16 with the sixth book in the Harry Potter series, "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince."

"There is a huge amount of security around the book right up to the moment the clock strikes midnight," Richard Cristofoli, an executive at British bookseller WH Smith, told Reuters. The most anticipated of the bunch arrives July 16 with the sixth book in the Harry Potter series, "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince." With last weekend's midnight release of "Half-Blood Prince," Pottermania shifted from long lines and costume parties to the quiet, solitary adventure of taking in the new story. Some 9 million copies sold in the first 24 hours, and a good number of those had been completed by the following day. With last weekend's midnight release of "Half-Blood Prince," Pottermania shifted from long lines and costume parties to the quiet, solitary adventure of taking in the new story. Some 9 million copies sold in the first 24 hours, and a good number of those had been completed by the following day.=20 The scene is likely to repeat itself at midnight local time in the United States and Canada, and fans are snapping up the book in spectacular fashion.

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1EhLQC-00030K-R0 for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 01:26:29 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO treating) (192.168.128.87) by ez34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl with SMTP; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:19:23 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4880131348.5471829573@ez34.internetdsl.tpnet.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: eap-archive@ietf.org From: Blanch Monroe Subject: Adobe Photoshop CS2 9.0 - $54.95 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 01:26:29 -0500 X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Low price branded software http://earnestness.runrum.com/ Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards. 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From Pcweli@optonline.net Wed Nov 30 05:51:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EhPYm-00071o-NU; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:51:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA27851; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:50:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200511301050.FAA27851@ietf.org> Received: from pool-71-109-101-200.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net ([71.109.101.200] helo=lh) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EhPt2-0005u5-2c; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:12:33 -0500 From: "Colin Clarke" To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Our last email Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:46:31 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_NGQFLKPM.DHOARGOE" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_NGQFLKPM.DHOARGOE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir/Madam, Your specific case has been presented to the important agencies, and upon vigilant weighing up, we are able to suggest to you the ensuing prospect. 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Should you prefer not to benefit of this holiday prospect you can go here. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_NGQFLKPM.DHOARGOE-- From raptures@illusionsneon.com Wed Nov 30 15:26:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EhYWj-0006S4-2C for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:26:05 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA08877 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:25:19 -0500 (EST) From: raptures@illusionsneon.com Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EhYqs-0001lG-Oe for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:47:06 -0500 Received: from [81.215.128.156] (helo=dsl.dynamic81215128156.ttnet.net.tr) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EhYWV-0000Cx-HJ for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:25:51 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO clasp [192.168.70.236]) by 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Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EhZq9-0003ks-VK for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:50:14 -0500 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela.tigertech.net [64.71.157.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA03431 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:49:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from leela.tigertech.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508314300E5 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:50:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.71.157.146]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398BE43008F for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:49:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE4A80C1FF for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:49:43 -0800 (PST) X-Greylist-Status: Sender first seen 00:46:15 ago Received: from localhost.localdomain (p213.54.83.147.tisdip.tiscali.de [213.54.83.147]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C7980C233 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:49:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (amilo [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id jAUL3BOf010481 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:03:11 +0100 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id jAUL3Ate010479 for eap@frascone.com; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:03:10 +0100 From: Thomas Otto To: eap@frascone.com Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:03:08 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.92 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511302203.09535.t.otto@sharevolution.de> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.842 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL X-Spam-Level: * Subject: [eap] Comments on draft-ietf-eap-keying-08b.txt X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Three brief comments to http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/draft-ietf-eap-keying-08b.txt. 1) Some "independences" are capitalized, others not, e.g. 1.4.2 ... media independence 1.4.3 ... Media Independence ... 2) It seems there is an inconsistency regarding what an EAP method exports. Figure 1 shows that an EAP method exports MSK,EMSK,IV, Peer-ID,Server-ID, Method-ID,Key-Lifetime. Section 2.2 now says "In completion of EAP authentication, EAP methods on the peer and EAP server export the Master Session Key (MSK), Extended Master Session Key (EMSK), Initialization Vector (IV), Peer-ID, Server-ID, Session-ID and Key-Lifetime." I think 2.2 must be "Method-ID". 3) Section 3.6. says, "it is RECOMMENDED that EAP methods utilizing public key cryptography choose a public key that has a cryptographic strength meeting the symmetric key strength" I'm not sure why you say "recommended" here? What else could one do? RFC 3748 says: "EAP methods supporting key derivation SHOULD be capable of generating an MSK and EMSK, each with an effective key strength of at least 128 bits." This implies that the effective key strength of public key cryptography must be (rougly) equivalent to that of symmetric key cryptography. In this context, the following statement of RFC 4017 appears wrong (at least for me). Neither says RFC 3748, that an EAP method MUST derive a MSK and EMSK, nor that the effective key strength MUST be 128 bit. "Key strength. An EAP method suitable for use with IEEE 802.11 MUST be capable of generating keying material with 128-bits of effective key strength, as defined in [RFC3748], Section 7.2.1." _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap Arhives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/eap From eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Nov 30 17:46:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ehaj2-0005M6-IN for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:46:56 -0500 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela.tigertech.net [64.71.157.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10837 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:46:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from leela.tigertech.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A599443012A for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.71.157.146]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0990043008F for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E898580C216 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA86280C201 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id jAUMgMV1023198 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:42:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jAUMowY3003365 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:50:59 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap]the outcome of EMSK and AMSK discussion? Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:42:06 -0500 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap]the outcome of EMSK and AMSK discussion? Thread-Index: AcXcAxlyKdQmRrw/Q+isniMry6693wDBZ5qgAAEsRVAACn7GkAABO6JABEnJt6ABDx0kQABXpJig From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: "Salowey, Joe" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= Cc: eap@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Hi Joe, Yes, I was asking since as I recall the end of review period was end of November, but it was not clear what the outcome of the review was supposed to be? I guess I agree with most of the answers you provided, except the response to Q on deleting or caching EMSK: "The sooner an implementation deletes the EMSK the better." This relates to when an AMSK for an application can be requested from the EAP server (if EAP server is to calculate AMSKs). Thanks, Madjid [Joe] It seemed like we were converging based on what was on the list, but I'm not sure we closed on all these issues. I'll try to go through the document and make recommendations by the end of the week, but it is up to the authors and chairs as to the next steps.=20 > Qs:=20 > AAA server versus EAP server? Their roles? Are you adding the KDF as=20 > another entity? [Joe] The EAP server is responsible for authentication and has very limited (hopefully none) application specific knowledge. The AAA server contains the application specific logic to perform authorization and other application specific tasks based on the output of the EAP server. I think the KDF best kept as part of the EAP Server. It is an interface to a specific function supported by an EAP server.=20 > Does the AAA server (lower layer at backend EAP server) get the AMSK=20 > after requesting it from the EAP layer (which holds the EMSK)? [Joe] The application that requests the AMSK gets the AMSK (unless there is some authorizaiton or policy that prevents it). The AAA server can contain one or more applications that can request AMSKs so yes the AAA server can obtain an AMSK. There is no AMSK specific to a AAA server, an AMSK is specific to an application supported by a AAA server.=20 >Is EMSK cached at all or is it deleted right away? [Joe] The sooner an implementation deletes the EMSK the better. Applications that need AMSKs should determine the need for the AMSK as soon as possible and request it. These are basic guidelines, I'm not sure if we have resolved the issue of caching the EMSK yet. =20 > Can we assume one AMSK per applications authorized by AAA server? >=20 [Joe] Each application can obtain one or more AMSKs. An AMSK should not be used for two different applications.=20 _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap Arhives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/eap From eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Wed Nov 30 17:48:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ehakh-0005lG-Oa for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:48:40 -0500 Received: from leela.tigertech.net (leela.tigertech.net [64.71.157.130]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10960 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from leela.tigertech.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954F54300FC for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.tigertech.net (hermes.tigertech.net [64.71.157.146]) by leela.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1632643008F for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F5880C20B for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:48:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by hermes.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3044680C193 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate7) with ESMTP id jAUN0u3t020902 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:01:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from de01exm70.ds.mot.com (de01exm70.am.mot.com [10.176.8.26]) by il06exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id jAUMxMRv026201 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:59:22 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:47:49 -0500 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Authenticator versus AAA client Thread-Index: AcXcAxlyKdQmRrw/Q+isniMry6693wDBZ5qgAAEsRVAACn7GkAABO6JABEnJt6ABDx0kQABX2u0g From: "Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1" To: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tigertech.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 tagged_above=-999 required=7 tests= Cc: Mohan.Parthasarathy@nokia.com Subject: [eap] Authenticator versus AAA client X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: eap-bounces+eap-archive=lists.ietf.org@frascone.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Hi folks, We are struggling to understand the true definition of EAP pass-through authenticator and how it differs from a AAA client. So here are some functions that we have in mind, we are trying to understand what function fits where: AAA client functionality: Run AAA protocol with AAA server. Receive authorization info from AAA server EAP pass-through Authenticator Understand EAP success/ failure, but not EAP request/ responses. Things we need but not sure where to fit? Authenticator or AAA client? Converting EAP/link layer to EAP/AAA? I would say this is AAA client. Receiving master keys from AAA server? Yes, EAP keying defines this as authenticator, but it would seem that this is AAA client, since keys are sent over AAA protocol. Any guidance? Thanks, Madjid Nakhjiri _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options, please visit: http://lists.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap Arhives: http://lists.frascone.com/pipermail/eap From spectator@conatser.com Wed Nov 30 18:32:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EhbR4-0007BK-Aw for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:32:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15490 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:31:38 -0500 (EST) From: spectator@conatser.com Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ehbiu-0003I2-6w for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:50:54 -0500 Received: from ip-56.net-81-220-244.rev.numericable.fr ([81.220.244.56]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1EhbOR-0007gk-Cf for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:29:43 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO answer [192.168.168.229]) by ip-56.net-81-220-244.rev.numericable.fr with SMTP; Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:30:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=_c69dc758ff267a6049e8a75b2a7d9289" Message-Id: <11060283038.4688017395@ip-56.net-81-220-244.rev.numericable.fr> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:29:58 +0100 To: Subject: breaking news X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 6b519fb0ef66258f34533f52ff46aedf --=_c69dc758ff267a6049e8a75b2a7d9289 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable






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Ship Fast To: chair@ietf.org X-Identity-Key: beoEO.9783A0 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Identity-Key: jaundice Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--6055B039CB37C4F" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 ----6055B039CB37C4F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Maximize your employablilty now http://uk.geocities.com/koehler462kitty4726 kill the ssp*m by going here : http://uk.geocities.com/saldana3827vonda38747 To love abundantly is to live abundantly, and to love forever is to live forever. ----6055B039CB37C4F-- From equated@merritt.net Wed Nov 30 23:11:34 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EhfnB-00019t-TM for eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:11:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA14608 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:10:45 -0500 (EST) From: equated@merritt.net Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ehg7Y-0004qK-1L for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:32:37 -0500 Received: from pcp02548185pcs.pimaco01.az.comcast.net ([68.63.206.232]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Ehfn3-00022r-Bo for eap-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:11:25 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO bathed [192.168.106.98]) by pcp02548185pcs.pimaco01.az.comcast.net with SMTP; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:11:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=_92a97103a3cbd77be353e803d8a542d3" Message-Id: <12439639917.26123107581@pcp02548185pcs.pimaco01.az.comcast.net> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:11:35 -0700 To: Subject: OTC News X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 913ee11e7c554f7d4da75d500826397e --=_92a97103a3cbd77be353e803d8a542d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



My eyes are an ocean in which my dreams are reflected.
Truth springs from argument amongst friends.
Anything too stupid to be said is sung.
This is on me.
Adolescence is the stage between infancy and adultery.
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