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----dWrkxKFu8wN4TQaKsH9n-- From XXZECPWE@delphi.com Sat Apr 2 15:16:04 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21618; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:16:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsl-200-78-84-95.prod-infinitum.com.mx ([200.78.84.95]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DHp97-0000ib-84; Sat, 02 Apr 2005 15:23:10 -0500 X-Message-Info: RGHxvsPHBH82yxHODfDIrmjLGZyqPCVxg765 Received: from compete-dns.idt.net (42.122.238.42) by xfp86-db1.idt.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:09:54 +0100 Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 22:07:54 +0200 (CST) Message-Id: <7324239189607.qp8YYsnRPS068@at227.eighth53idt.net> To: ldap-dir@ietf.org Subject: In case you need origeenal software, this is for you landscape From: Harriett Moran MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--hpqmayl9907018398oyzmz" X-Spam-Score: 20.6 (++++++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 ----hpqmayl9907018398oyzmz Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit At the end of every winter we have this for our favorite people. 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or shld i not ? wat wld be her reaction ? sigh. ok the flag we made abt amundsen some viking guy yea we drew an axe with a viking helmet quite nice actually hahaz though other flags got the mini prize lol. nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp nbsp when you fail. ----hpqmayl9907018398oyzmz-- From jkpwuzhe@szjkp.com Sat Apr 2 15:17:36 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA22696 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:17:36 -0500 (EST) From: jkpwuzhe@szjkp.com Message-Id: <200504022017.PAA22696@ietf.org> Received: from [211.162.117.219] (helo=eap-archive) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DHpBQ-0001FU-Aw for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 02 Apr 2005 15:25:29 -0500 Subject: =?GB2312?B?uaTStb/VtffXqsjDtcK5+s3+zbwsuaTStb/VtfcsU0szMjkwNTAw?= To: eap-archive@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset="GB2312" Reply-To: jkpwuzhe@szjkp.com Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 04:17:29 +0800 X-Priority: 4 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Score: 5.9 (+++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-NONENGLISH: Subject contains non-English characters X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad ¹¤Òµ¿Õµ÷תÈà µÂ¹úÍþͼ ¹¤Òµ¿Õµ÷ SK3290500 ¶þÆ¥¹¤Òµ¿Õµ÷ ȫеļ۸ñÊÇ17000Ôª ÏÖÔÚ 9800Ôª תÈᣳÉÉ«½Ó½üȫС£ Èç¹ûÓÐÐèÒªÇëÓëÎÒÁªÏµ¡£0755-83658890 ÎâÕÜÏÈÉú ÊÖ»ú:13632664595 ÉîÛÚÊнð¿­Åôµç×ÓÓÐÏÞ¹«Ë¾ ÎâÕÜ 86-0755-83658890-8890 jkpwuzhe@szjkp.com ÉîÄÏÖз From eap-admin@frascone.com Sat Apr 2 20:09:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA08393 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2C592028D; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7407220261; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:09:03 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CEAC20261 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B98B20252 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:08:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DHtag-000IK6-3U; Sat, 02 Apr 2005 20:07:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j3317lR28119; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:07:47 -0800 From: Bernard Aboba To: "Adrangi, Farid" Cc: eap@frascone.com, iesg@ietf.org, Jari Arkko , gwz@cisco.com, jsalowey@cisco.com, Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, Eugene Chang Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:07:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) I think we were talking about an IESG note in addition to material in the applicability statement, no? For example, EAP SIM contains the following note: IESG Note The EAP-SIM protocol was developed by 3GPP. The documentation of EAP-SIM is provided as information to the Internet community. While the EAP WG has verified that EAP-SIM is compatible with EAP as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including validation of the security claims. Here is a potential strawman note for the EAP Network Discovery document: EAP Network Discovery was developed by 3GPP. Documentation is provided as information to the Internet community. While the EAP WG has verified that EAP Network Discovery is compatible with EAP as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including investigation of potential security issues. There is work underway in IEEE 802.11 which may provide similar functionality, enabling an EAP peer to determine network availability prior to handoff. As a result, the approach described in this document may be superceded by future standards, and it is not recommended for implementation outside of 3GPP. On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Adrangi, Farid wrote: > Sorry, just to be clear, the link below contains the update we made to > the applicability section in -011 version, based on Glen's comment on > -10 version in the last WG meeting. > Thanks, > Farid > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] > > On Behalf Of Adrangi, Farid > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:33 AM > > To: Bernard Aboba > > Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; > > gwz@cisco.com; jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang > > Subject: [eap] RE: FW: I-D > > ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > > > > > > I think so! The applicability section was introduced in version -08. > > Since then we have made several updates to that section based on > > comments from Glen Zorn, Eugene Chang, Jari Arkko, and yourself. The > > updates to this section was made based on Glen Zorn's comment > > during the > > last IETF meeting (relayed to me by Pasi) -- the exact change is > > captured in > > http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/issues-1.tx > > t -- see > > #3. Please let me know if you have any questions. > > BR, > > Farid > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:08 AM > > > To: Adrangi, Farid > > > Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; > > > gwz@cisco.com; jsalowey@cisco.com > > > Subject: Re: FW: I-D > > ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > > > > > > > > > As I recall there was a discussion relating to the appropriate > > > applicability statement that should be attached to this document. > > > > > > Have we come to agreement on what the applicability statement > > > should be? > > > > > > On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Adrangi, Farid wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > In this version, we have done some editorial fixes through out the > > > > document and addressed issues brought up during IESG review. > > > > ** Editorial changes are summarized in > > > > > > > http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/Editorial_c > > > hanges.txt > > > > ** List of issues with their resolutions are summarized in > > > > http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/issues-1.txt > > > > Thanks, > > > > Farid > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org > > > > > [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > > > > Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 8:04 AM > > > > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line > > > > > Internet-Drafts directories. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Title : Identity selection hints for > > > > > Extensible Authentication > > > > > Protocol (EAP) > > > > > Author(s) : F. Adrangi, et al. > > > > > Filename : > > draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > > > > > Pages : 13 > > > > > Date : 2005-3-25 > > > > > > > > > > The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP) is defined > > > in RFC 3748. > > > > > This document defines a mechanism that allows an > > > access network to > > > > > provide identity selection hints to an EAP peer. The > > > purpose is to > > > > > assist the EAP peer in selecting an appropriate > > Network Access > > > > > Identifier (NAI) when there is no direct roaming > > > > > relationship between > > > > > the access network and the peer's home network. In > > this case, > > > > > authentication is typically accomplished via a mediating > > > > > network such > > > > > as a roaming consortium or broker. > > > > > > > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network- > > > > discovery-11.txt > > > > > > > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a > > message to > > > > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in > > > the body of > > > > the message. > > > > You can also visit > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > > > > to change your subscription settings. > > > > > > > > > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. > > Login with the > > > > username > > > > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > > logging in, > > > > type "cd internet-drafts" and then > > > > "get draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt". > > > > > > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > > > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > > > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > > > > > > > Send a message to: > > > > mailserv@ietf.org. > > > > In the body type: > > > > "FILE > > > > /internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt". > > > > > > > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > > > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > > > > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > > > > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > > > > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail > > > > readers > > > > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > > > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > > > > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > > > > how to manipulate these messages. > > > > > > > > > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > > > > Internet-Draft. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > eap mailing list > > eap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From ingmar@abovenbeyond.com Sat Apr 2 23:23:16 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA21465 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 23:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DHwlW-0003Wa-DI for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 02 Apr 2005 23:31:14 -0500 Received: from champigny-2-82-67-237-29.fbx.proxad.net ([82.67.237.29]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DHwdp-0003Dz-AA for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 02 Apr 2005 23:23:18 -0500 Message-ID: <966e01c53802$565204cb$29da5ea7@abovenbeyond.com> From: "Vanessa J. 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------=_NextPart_001_0001_770C4F0D.48398E2C-- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_7FCDCE9E.23E72CEC-- From WilmaHampton@autumn-leaves.co.uk Sun Apr 3 19:08:18 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05537 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DIEKL-00071N-Ny for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:16:24 -0400 Received: from [211.245.76.134] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DIECR-0002F1-T4 for eap-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:08:14 -0400 Received: from Fqm@localhost by BeA.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Sun, 03 Apr 2005 20:04:11 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Terri Sanchez" Reply-To: "Terri Sanchez" To: dxcqmmmusic@ietf.org Cc: e3@ietf.org, eamoby@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Thousands of academic software titles, 80% off, Instant Download Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 04:03:11 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: WilmaHampton@autumn-leaves.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--bdg7ijTul5LdZmXa7Tj" X-Spam-Score: 6.8 (++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 09f2eafe5f7c426554d5f494540a89cd pAn ----bdg7ijTul5LdZmXa7Tj Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 8579555
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----bdg7ijTul5LdZmXa7Tj-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon Apr 4 00:30:13 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25857 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7EF1FC62; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25EEF20358; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:30:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A069202CF for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr005.jf.intel.com (fmr20.intel.com [134.134.136.19]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278291FC62 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (orsfmr101.jf.intel.com [10.7.209.17]) by orsfmr005.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-outer.mc,v 1.1 2004/09/17 17:50:56 root Exp $) with ESMTP id j344TnVH016897; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 04:29:49 GMT Received: from orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com (orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.206]) by orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-inner.mc,v 1.2 2004/09/17 18:05:01 root Exp $) with SMTP id j344TgeB030238; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 04:29:42 GMT Received: from orsmsx331.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.56]) by orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.7.47) with SMTP id M2005040321294209851 ; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 21:29:42 -0700 Received: from orsmsx408.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.52]) by orsmsx331.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:29:42 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] RE: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt Thread-Index: AcU36Zc402VBn6AFS+W4rxdYTRQc/AA4x82Q From: "Adrangi, Farid" To: "Bernard Aboba" Cc: , , "Jari Arkko" , , , , "Eugene Chang" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Apr 2005 04:29:42.0198 (UTC) FILETIME=[EBE4B560:01C538CE] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:29:40 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't recall talking about an IESG note on the mailing list! Anyhow, as to your strawman IESG note, it should be noted that the draft was reviewed and accepted by IEEE 802.11 (WIEN? - the WG has sent an official review report to IETF. And also, I would remove the last part of the note: "and it is not recommended for implementation outside of 3GPP." I think we should state the facts about the solution and let the implementer decided whether or not the solution is suitable for their deployments outside 3GPP.=20 BR, Farid > -----Original Message----- > From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com]=20 > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:08 PM > To: Adrangi, Farid > Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko;=20 > gwz@cisco.com; jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang > Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >=20 >=20 > I think we were talking about an IESG note in addition to=20 > material in the > applicability statement, no? >=20 > For example, EAP SIM contains the following note: >=20 > IESG Note >=20 > The EAP-SIM protocol was developed by 3GPP. The documentation of > EAP-SIM is provided as information to the Internet=20 > community. While > the EAP WG has verified that EAP-SIM is compatible with EAP as > defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including > validation of the security claims. >=20 > Here is a potential strawman note for the EAP Network=20 > Discovery document: >=20 > EAP Network Discovery was developed by 3GPP. Documentation is > provided as information to the Internet community. While the > EAP WG has verified that EAP Network Discovery is compatible with > EAP as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done,=20 > including > investigation of potential security issues. There is work > underway in IEEE 802.11 which may provide similar functionality, > enabling an EAP peer to determine network availability prior to > handoff. As a result, the approach described in this document may > be superceded by future standards, and it is not recommended for > implementation outside of 3GPP. >=20 >=20 > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Adrangi, Farid wrote: >=20 > > Sorry, just to be clear, the link below contains the update=20 > we made to > > the applicability section in -011 version, based on Glen's=20 > comment on > > -10 version in the last WG meeting. > > Thanks, > > Farid > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] > > > On Behalf Of Adrangi, Farid > > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:33 AM > > > To: Bernard Aboba > > > Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; > > > gwz@cisco.com; jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com;=20 > Eugene Chang > > > Subject: [eap] RE: FW: I-D > > > ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > > > > > > > > > I think so! The applicability section was introduced in=20 > version -08. > > > Since then we have made several updates to that section based on > > > comments from Glen Zorn, Eugene Chang, Jari Arkko, and=20 > yourself. The > > > updates to this section was made based on Glen Zorn's comment > > > during the > > > last IETF meeting (relayed to me by Pasi) -- the exact change is > > > captured in > > > http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/issues-1.tx > > > t -- see > > > #3. Please let me know if you have any questions. > > > BR, > > > Farid > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:08 AM > > > > To: Adrangi, Farid > > > > Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; > > > > gwz@cisco.com; jsalowey@cisco.com > > > > Subject: Re: FW: I-D > > > ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > As I recall there was a discussion relating to the appropriate > > > > applicability statement that should be attached to this=20 > document. > > > > > > > > Have we come to agreement on what the applicability statement > > > > should be? > > > > > > > > On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Adrangi, Farid wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > In this version, we have done some editorial fixes=20 > through out the > > > > > document and addressed issues brought up during IESG review. > > > > > ** Editorial changes are summarized in > > > > > > > > > http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/Editorial_c > > > > hanges.txt > > > > > ** List of issues with their resolutions are summarized in > > > > >=20 > http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/issues-1.txt > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Farid > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org > > > > > > [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > > > > > Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 8:04 AM > > > > > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line > > > > > > Internet-Drafts directories. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Title : Identity selection hints for > > > > > > Extensible Authentication > > > > > > Protocol (EAP) > > > > > > Author(s) : F. Adrangi, et al. > > > > > > Filename : > > > draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > > > > > > Pages : 13 > > > > > > Date : 2005-3-25 > > > > > > > > > > > > The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP) is defined > > > > in RFC 3748. > > > > > > This document defines a mechanism that allows an > > > > access network to > > > > > > provide identity selection hints to an EAP peer. The > > > > purpose is to > > > > > > assist the EAP peer in selecting an appropriate > > > Network Access > > > > > > Identifier (NAI) when there is no direct roaming > > > > > > relationship between > > > > > > the access network and the peer's home network. In > > > this case, > > > > > > authentication is typically accomplished via a mediating > > > > > > network such > > > > > > as a roaming consortium or broker. > > > > > > > > > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > > > > > >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network- > > > > > discovery-11.txt > > > > > > > > > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a > > > message to > > > > > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in > > > > the body of > > > > > the message. > > > > > You can also visit > > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > > > > > to change your subscription settings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. > > > Login with the > > > > > username > > > > > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > > > logging in, > > > > > type "cd internet-drafts" and then > > > > > "get draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt". > > > > > > > > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > > > > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > > > > > > > > > Send a message to: > > > > > mailserv@ietf.org. > > > > > In the body type: > > > > > "FILE > > > > > /internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt". > > > > > > > > > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > > > > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.=20 > To use this > > > > > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime"=20 > before the "FILE" > > > > > command. To decode the response(s), you will=20 > need "munpack" or > > > > > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different=20 > MIME-compliant mail > > > > > readers > > > > > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > > > > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which=20 > have been split > > > > > up into multiple messages), so check your local=20 > documentation on > > > > > how to manipulate these messages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant=20 > mail reader > > > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII=20 > version of the > > > > > Internet-Draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > eap mailing list > > > eap@frascone.com > > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > > > > > >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon Apr 4 06:54:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA16965 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3010720452; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7683420445; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:54:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B7820445 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E7D20441 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7BE689862; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:53:04 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42511C8D.2090809@piuha.net> From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: [eap] [Issue 294] Rewrite of Security Considerations Section References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:53:01 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba wrote: >Issue 294: Rewrite of the Security Considerations & Requirements Sections >Submitter name: Bernard Aboba >Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com >Date first submitted: 3/31/05 >Reference: >Document: KEY-05 >Comment type: T >Priority: S >Section: 6, 7 >Rationale/Explanation of issue > >The major rationale for creating the EAP Key Management Framework document >in the first place was to provide a security analysis of EAP usage in >existing applications. > >However, while Section 6.1 defines terminology and Section 6.2 provides a >Threat Model based on the Housley Criteria, the document never actually >provides a security analysis of existing EAP Usage. > >For example, does EAP when used with PPP & RADIUS satisfy the security >requirements? How about when used with 802.11i, and Diameter EAP? The >document does not provide any guidance. It is no wonder that the reader >is left to wonder what the point of the document is. > >Section 7 consists of requirements on EAP methods, AAA >protocols, Secure Association Protocols and Ciphersuites that is in no way >tied back to the security requirements and threat model. One is left to >wonder whether these "requirements" were developed out of thin air, or >whether there is any basis/justification for them. > >The recommended fix is to rewrite Section 6 to analyze the following EAP >usage scenarios according to the security requirements: > >1. EAP over PPP [RFC3748] > a. With RADIUS ([RFC3579] + [RFC2548]) > b. With Diameter-EAP & Redirect >2. EAP over 802.1X > a. With RADIUS ([RFC3579] + [RFC2548]) > b. With Diameter-EAP & Redirect >3. EAP over 802.11i > a. With RADIUS ([RFC3579] + [RFC2548]) > b. 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To coin money, regu= late the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weigh= ts and measures;=20!=20 From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon Apr 4 21:33:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA03795 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4DD20452; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5412042E; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:33:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438FB2042E for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA272041F for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DIcw3-000N5E-5d; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:32:55 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j351WrX11760; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:32:53 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: gwz@cisco.com Cc: jsalowey@cisco.com, eap@frascone.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] RE: draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:32:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Can you review -11 and confirm that issues 287 and 293 have been resolved to your satisfaction? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:29:40 -0700 From: "Adrangi, Farid" To: Bernard Aboba Cc: eap@frascone.com, iesg@ietf.org, Jari Arkko , gwz@cisco.com, jsalowey@cisco.com, Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, Eugene Chang Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt I don't recall talking about an IESG note on the mailing list! Anyhow, as to your strawman IESG note, it should be noted that the draft was reviewed and accepted by IEEE 802.11 (WIEN? - the WG has sent an official review report to IETF. And also, I would remove the last part of the note: "and it is not recommended for implementation outside of 3GPP." I think we should state the facts about the solution and let the implementer decided whether or not the solution is suitable for their deployments outside 3GPP. BR, Farid > -----Original Message----- > From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:08 PM > To: Adrangi, Farid > Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; > gwz@cisco.com; jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang > Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D > ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > > > I think we were talking about an IESG note in addition to > material in the applicability statement, no? > > For example, EAP SIM contains the following note: > > IESG Note > > The EAP-SIM protocol was developed by 3GPP. The documentation of > EAP-SIM is provided as information to the Internet community. While > the EAP WG has verified that EAP-SIM is compatible with EAP as > defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including > validation of the security claims. > > Here is a potential strawman note for the EAP Network > Discovery document: > > EAP Network Discovery was developed by 3GPP. Documentation is > provided as information to the Internet community. While the > EAP WG has verified that EAP Network Discovery is compatible with > EAP as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including > investigation of potential security issues. There is work > underway in IEEE 802.11 which may provide similar functionality, > enabling an EAP peer to determine network availability prior to > handoff. As a result, the approach described in this document may > be superceded by future standards, and it is not recommended for > implementation outside of 3GPP. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon Apr 4 22:08:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA06372 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:08:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F05120463; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04C720446; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:08:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B99820446 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:07:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358F820435 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Apr 2005 19:07:34 -0700 Received: from gwzw2k01 (sjc-vpn6-268.cisco.com [10.21.121.12]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j3527TgS006968; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200504050207.j3527TgS006968@sj-core-3.cisco.com> Reply-To: From: "Glen Zorn (gwz)" To: "'Bernard Aboba'" Cc: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcU5f5MCJ7Up60OuRMypCPY/9cUZiQABI/Ug In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] RE: draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:07:29 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernard Aboba supposedly scribbled: > Can you review -11 and confirm that issues 287 and 293 have been > resolved to your satisfaction? You betcha, this evening. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:29:40 -0700 > From: "Adrangi, Farid" > To: Bernard Aboba > Cc: eap@frascone.com, iesg@ietf.org, Jari Arkko > , gwz@cisco.com, jsalowey@cisco.com, > Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, Eugene Chang > Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D > ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > > I don't recall talking about an IESG note on the mailing list! > Anyhow, as to your strawman IESG note, it should be noted that the > draft was reviewed and accepted by IEEE 802.11 (WIEN? - the WG has > sent an official review report to IETF. And also, I would remove the > last part of the note: "and it is not recommended for implementation > outside of 3GPP." I think we should state the facts about the > solution and let the implementer decided whether or not the solution > is suitable for their deployments outside 3GPP. BR, > Farid > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] >> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:08 PM >> To: Adrangi, Farid >> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; >> jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang >> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D >> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >> >> >> I think we were talking about an IESG note in addition to material in >> the applicability statement, no? >> >> For example, EAP SIM contains the following note: >> >> IESG Note >> >> The EAP-SIM protocol was developed by 3GPP. The documentation of >> EAP-SIM is provided as information to the Internet community. While >> the EAP WG has verified that EAP-SIM is compatible with EAP as >> defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including >> validation of the security claims. >> >> Here is a potential strawman note for the EAP Network Discovery >> document: >> >> EAP Network Discovery was developed by 3GPP. Documentation is >> provided as information to the Internet community. While the EAP WG >> has verified that EAP Network Discovery is compatible with EAP as >> defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including >> investigation of potential security issues. There is work underway >> in IEEE 802.11 which may provide similar functionality, enabling an >> EAP peer to determine network availability prior to handoff. As a >> result, the approach described in this document may be superceded by >> future standards, and it is not recommended for implementation >> outside of 3GPP. Hope this helps, ~gwz Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by simply listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon Apr 4 22:57:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA09933 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B528120497; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3782320477; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:57:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A101620477 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:56:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B0B2046C for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Apr 2005 19:55:59 -0700 Received: from gwzw2k01 (sjc-vpn6-268.cisco.com [10.21.121.12]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j352tsgS022841; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200504050255.j352tsgS022841@sj-core-3.cisco.com> Reply-To: From: "Glen Zorn (gwz)" To: "'Adrangi, Farid'" , "'Bernard Aboba'" Cc: , , "'Jari Arkko'" , , , "'Eugene Chang'" Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcU36Zc402VBn6AFS+W4rxdYTRQc/AA4x82QAC8VD3A= In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:55:54 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrangi, Farid supposedly scribbled: > I don't recall talking about an IESG note on the mailing list! > Anyhow, as to your strawman IESG note, it should be noted that the > draft was reviewed and accepted by IEEE 802.11 I'm not sure what this means. Does it mean accepted as in "whatever you want to do" or as in adopted as correct? > (WIEN? - Last time I checked, WIEN was just a study group (the 802.11 equivalent of a BOF). Has this changed? > the WG has > sent an official review report to IETF. Did we receive a liaison from the 802.11 Working Group or a note from the WIEN Study Group? There's a big difference... > And also, I would remove the > last part of the note: "and it is not recommended for implementation > outside of 3GPP." I think we should state the facts about the > solution Unless the draft has changed drastically for the better, the facts were pretty slim, certainly too slim for it to be called a "solution" (without volumes of supporting documentation). > and let the implementer decided whether or not the solution > is suitable for their deployments outside 3GPP. If and when the RFC Editor becomes a vanity publisher for 3GPP, I will agree; until then, however, I think that we at least a right (if not a duty) to publish applicability statements that express the opinions of the IETF (regardless if those opinions coincide with those of the author(s)). > BR, > Farid > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] >> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:08 PM >> To: Adrangi, Farid >> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; >> jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang >> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D >> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >> >> >> I think we were talking about an IESG note in addition to material in >> the applicability statement, no? >> >> For example, EAP SIM contains the following note: >> >> IESG Note >> >> The EAP-SIM protocol was developed by 3GPP. The documentation of >> EAP-SIM is provided as information to the Internet community. >> While the EAP WG has verified that EAP-SIM is compatible with EAP >> as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including >> validation of the security claims. >> >> Here is a potential strawman note for the EAP Network Discovery >> document: >> >> EAP Network Discovery was developed by 3GPP. Documentation is >> provided as information to the Internet community. While the >> EAP WG has verified that EAP Network Discovery is compatible with >> EAP as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, >> including investigation of potential security issues. There is >> work underway in IEEE 802.11 which may provide similar >> functionality, enabling an EAP peer to determine network >> availability prior to handoff. As a result, the approach >> described in this document may be superceded by future standards, >> and it is not recommended for implementation outside of 3GPP. >> >> >> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Adrangi, Farid wrote: >> >>> Sorry, just to be clear, the link below contains the update we made >>> to the applicability section in -011 version, based on Glen's >>> comment on -10 version in the last WG meeting. >>> Thanks, >>> Farid >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] On >>>> Behalf Of Adrangi, Farid Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:33 AM >>>> To: Bernard Aboba >>>> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; >>>> jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang >>>> Subject: [eap] RE: FW: I-D >>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>>> >>>> >>>> I think so! The applicability section was introduced in version >>>> -08. Since then we have made several updates to that section based >>>> on comments from Glen Zorn, Eugene Chang, Jari Arkko, and >>>> yourself. The updates to this section was made based on Glen >>>> Zorn's comment during the last IETF meeting (relayed to me by >>>> Pasi) -- the exact change is captured in >>>> http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/issues-1.tx >>>> t -- see >>>> #3. Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>> BR, >>>> Farid >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:08 AM >>>>> To: Adrangi, Farid >>>>> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; >>>>> jsalowey@cisco.com Subject: Re: FW: I-D >>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As I recall there was a discussion relating to the appropriate >>>>> applicability statement that should be attached to this document. >>>>> >>>>> Have we come to agreement on what the applicability statement >>>>> should be? >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Adrangi, Farid wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>>> In this version, we have done some editorial fixes through out >>>>>> the document and addressed issues brought up during IESG review. >>>>>> ** Editorial changes are summarized in >>>>>> >>>>> http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/Editorial_c >>>>> hanges.txt >>>>>> ** List of issues with their resolutions are summarized in >>>>>> >> http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/issues-1.txt >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Farid >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org >>>>>>> [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>> Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 8:04 AM >>>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >>>>>>> Subject: I-D >> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >>>>>>> Internet-Drafts directories. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Title : Identity selection hints for >>>>>>> Extensible Authentication >>>>>>> Protocol (EAP) >>>>>>> Author(s) : F. Adrangi, et al. >>>>>>> Filename : >>>> draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>>>>>> Pages : 13 >>>>>>> Date : 2005-3-25 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP) is defined in RFC >>>>>>> 3748. This document defines a mechanism that allows an >>>>>>> access network to provide identity selection hints to an EAP >>>>>>> peer. The purpose is to assist the EAP peer in selecting an >>>>>>> appropriate Network Access Identifier (NAI) when there is no >>>>>>> direct roaming relationship between the access network and >>>>>>> the peer's home network. In this case, authentication is >>>>>>> typically accomplished via a mediating network such as a >>>>>>> roaming consortium or broker. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >>>>>>> >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network- >>>>>> discovery-11.txt >>>>>> >>>>>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a >>>>>> message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word >>>>>> unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit >>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce >>>>>> to change your subscription settings. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with >>>>>> the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. >>>>>> After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then >>>>>> "get draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt". >>>>>> >>>>>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or >>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. >>>>>> >>>>>> Send a message to: >>>>>> mailserv@ietf.org. >>>>>> In the body type: >>>>>> "FILE >>>>>> /internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt". >>>>>> >>>>>> NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in >>>>>> MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. >> To use this >>>>>> feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" >>>>>> command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or >>>>>> a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail >>>>>> readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with >>>>>> "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split >>>>>> up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on >>>>>> how to manipulate these messages. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >>>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of >>>>>> the Internet-Draft. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> eap mailing list >>>> eap@frascone.com >>>> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap Hope this helps, ~gwz Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by simply listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 5 00:05:09 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13683 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 927D620498; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A792B204AE; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:05:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD1BE20498 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1CC2048F for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Apr 2005 21:04:20 -0700 Received: from gwzw2k01 (sjc-vpn6-268.cisco.com [10.21.121.12]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j3544JgS011053; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200504050404.j3544JgS011053@sj-core-3.cisco.com> Reply-To: From: "Glen Zorn (gwz)" To: Cc: , , "'Bernard Aboba'" Subject: RE: [eap] RE: draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcU5f5MCJ7Up60OuRMypCPY/9cUZiQABI/UgAAH4PGA= In-Reply-To: <200504050207.j3527TgS006968@sj-core-3.cisco.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:04:16 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glen Zorn (gwz) <> supposedly scribbled: > Bernard Aboba supposedly scribbled: > >> Can you review -11 and confirm that issues 287 and 293 have been >> resolved to your satisfaction? > > You betcha, this evening. As far as issues 287 & 293, looks OK to me. A few other comments: 1. (editorial) I think the paragraph break here In such scenarios, a limited number of identity hints (e.g., a list of roaming partners of the access network) can be provided by the mechanism to enable the EAP peer to influence routing of AAA packets. The immediate application of the proposed mechanism is in 3GPP systems interworking with WLANs [TS 23.234] and [TS 24.234]. The roaming partner information provided via this mechanism is limited by the link layer MTU size. For example, assuming an average of 20 is in the wrong place -- this make more sense to me: In such scenarios, a limited number of identity hints (e.g., a list of roaming partners of the access network) can be provided by the mechanism to enable the EAP peer to influence routing of AAA packets. The immediate application of the proposed mechanism is in 3GPP systems interworking with WLANs [TS 23.234] and [TS 24.234]. The roaming partner information provided via this mechanism is limited by the link layer MTU size. For example, assuming an average of 20 2. (technical) It's not clear to me what the required behavior is from the following (section 2. paragraph 3) If the peer responds with an EAP-Response/Identity containing an unknown realm after the local AAA proxy/server sends an identity hint, then the local AAA proxy/server MAY respond immediately with an EAP Failure packet. Alternatively, it MAY first send an EAP-Notification providing the reason for the failure. I think what is meant is that the proxy MAY send an EAP-Notification message before sending EAP FAILURE, but EAP Failure is always sent in this case. If that is correct, may I suggest the following replacement text: If the peer responds with an EAP-Response/Identity containing an unknown realm after the local AAA proxy/server sends an identity hint, then the local AAA proxy/server MAY send an EAP-Notification message providing the reason for the failure; whether an EAP notification message is sent, the AAA proxy/server MUST respond with an EAP Failure packet. or something similar. 3. The message flows in the Appendix only shoe the success cases -- it would be nice if at least one failure case was illustrated. > >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:29:40 -0700 >> From: "Adrangi, Farid" >> To: Bernard Aboba >> Cc: eap@frascone.com, iesg@ietf.org, Jari Arkko >> , gwz@cisco.com, jsalowey@cisco.com, >> Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, Eugene Chang >> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D >> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >> >> I don't recall talking about an IESG note on the mailing list! >> Anyhow, as to your strawman IESG note, it should be noted that the >> draft was reviewed and accepted by IEEE 802.11 (WIEN? - the WG has >> sent an official review report to IETF. And also, I would remove the >> last part of the note: "and it is not recommended for implementation >> outside of 3GPP." I think we should state the facts about the >> solution and let the implementer decided whether or not the solution >> is suitable for their deployments outside 3GPP. BR, >> Farid >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:08 PM >>> To: Adrangi, Farid >>> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; >>> jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang >>> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D >>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>> >>> >>> I think we were talking about an IESG note in addition to material >>> in the applicability statement, no? >>> >>> For example, EAP SIM contains the following note: >>> >>> IESG Note >>> >>> The EAP-SIM protocol was developed by 3GPP. The documentation of >>> EAP-SIM is provided as information to the Internet community. While >>> the EAP WG has verified that EAP-SIM is compatible with EAP as >>> defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including >>> validation of the security claims. >>> >>> Here is a potential strawman note for the EAP Network Discovery >>> document: >>> >>> EAP Network Discovery was developed by 3GPP. Documentation is >>> provided as information to the Internet community. While the EAP WG >>> has verified that EAP Network Discovery is compatible with EAP as >>> defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including >>> investigation of potential security issues. There is work underway >>> in IEEE 802.11 which may provide similar functionality, enabling an >>> EAP peer to determine network availability prior to handoff. As a >>> result, the approach described in this document may be superceded >>> by future standards, and it is not recommended for implementation >>> outside of 3GPP. > > Hope this helps, > > ~gwz > > Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by simply > listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap Hope this helps, ~gwz Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by simply listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 5 00:53:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA17076 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45394204CA; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B879204BF; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:53:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C92E204BF for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:52:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr002.jf.intel.com (fmr17.intel.com [134.134.136.16]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D382049F for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr100.jf.intel.com (orsfmr100.jf.intel.com [10.7.209.16]) by orsfmr002.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-outer.mc,v 1.1 2004/09/17 17:50:56 root Exp $) with ESMTP id j354qauv031391; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 04:52:36 GMT Received: from orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com (orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.206]) by orsfmr100.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-inner.mc,v 1.2 2004/09/17 18:05:01 root Exp $) with SMTP id j354qXeO024516; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 04:52:35 GMT Received: from orsmsx332.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.60]) by orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.7.47) with SMTP id M2005040421523531442 ; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:52:35 -0700 Received: from orsmsx408.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.52]) by orsmsx332.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:52:35 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] RE: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt Thread-Index: AcU36Zc402VBn6AFS+W4rxdYTRQc/AA4x82QAC8VD3AAA+DrAA== From: "Adrangi, Farid" To: , "Bernard Aboba" Cc: , , "Jari Arkko" , , , "Eugene Chang" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Apr 2005 04:52:35.0089 (UTC) FILETIME=[489D0010:01C5399B] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:52:34 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Glen, The report was sent to IETF -- will send you a copy if I find it in my archives. I will let IESG interpret the report and decide whether not it should be mentioned in the IESG applicability note! So, Please discard my e-mail. Brian made it clear to me that it is IESG's responsibility to determine the need for the applicability note and its content! BR, Farid > -----Original Message----- > From: Glen Zorn (gwz) [mailto:gwz@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 7:56 PM > To: Adrangi, Farid; 'Bernard Aboba' > Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; 'Jari Arkko';=20 > jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; 'Eugene Chang' > Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >=20 >=20 > Adrangi, Farid supposedly > scribbled: >=20 > > I don't recall talking about an IESG note on the mailing list!=20 > > Anyhow, as to your strawman IESG note, it should be noted that the > > draft was reviewed and accepted by IEEE 802.11=20 >=20 > I'm not sure what this means. Does it mean accepted as in "whatever > you want to do" or as in adopted as correct? =20 >=20 > > (WIEN? -=20 >=20 > Last time I checked, WIEN was just a study group (the 802.11 > equivalent of a BOF). Has this changed? >=20 > > the WG has > > sent an official review report to IETF. =20 >=20 > Did we receive a liaison from the 802.11 Working Group or a note > from the WIEN Study Group? There's a big difference... >=20 > > And also, I would remove the > > last part of the note: "and it is not recommended for > implementation > > outside of 3GPP." I think we should state the facts about the > > solution=20 >=20 > Unless the draft has changed drastically for the better, the facts > were pretty slim, certainly too slim for it to be called a > "solution" (without volumes of supporting documentation). >=20 > > and let the implementer decided whether or not the solution > > is suitable for their deployments outside 3GPP.=20 >=20 > If and when the RFC Editor becomes a vanity publisher for 3GPP, I > will agree; until then, however, I think that we at least a right > (if not a duty) to publish applicability statements that express the > opinions of the IETF (regardless if those opinions coincide with > those of the author(s)). >=20 >=20 > > BR, =20 > > Farid > >=20 > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] > >> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:08 PM > >> To: Adrangi, Farid > >> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; > >> jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang > >> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D > >> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> I think we were talking about an IESG note in addition to > material in > >> the applicability statement, no? > >>=20 > >> For example, EAP SIM contains the following note: > >>=20 > >> IESG Note > >>=20 > >> The EAP-SIM protocol was developed by 3GPP. The documentation > of > >> EAP-SIM is provided as information to the Internet community. > >> While the EAP WG has verified that EAP-SIM is compatible with > EAP > >> as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, > including > >> validation of the security claims. > >>=20 > >> Here is a potential strawman note for the EAP Network Discovery > >> document:=20 > >>=20 > >> EAP Network Discovery was developed by 3GPP. Documentation is > >> provided as information to the Internet community. While the > >> EAP WG has verified that EAP Network Discovery is compatible > with > >> EAP as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, > >> including investigation of potential security issues. There > is > >> work underway in IEEE 802.11 which may provide similar > >> functionality, enabling an EAP peer to determine network > >> availability prior to handoff. As a result, the approach > >> described in this document may be superceded by future > standards, > >> and it is not recommended for implementation outside of 3GPP. > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Adrangi, Farid wrote: > >>=20 > >>> Sorry, just to be clear, the link below contains the update we > made > >>> to the applicability section in -011 version, based on Glen's > >>> comment on -10 version in the last WG meeting. > >>> Thanks, > >>> Farid > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] On > >>>> Behalf Of Adrangi, Farid Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:33 AM > >>>> To: Bernard Aboba > >>>> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; > >>>> jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang > >>>> Subject: [eap] RE: FW: I-D > >>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>> I think so! The applicability section was introduced in version > >>>> -08. Since then we have made several updates to that section > based > >>>> on comments from Glen Zorn, Eugene Chang, Jari Arkko, and > >>>> yourself. The updates to this section was made based on Glen > >>>> Zorn's comment during the last IETF meeting (relayed to me by > >>>> Pasi) -- the exact change is captured in > >>>> http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/issues-1.tx=20 > >>>> t -- see > >>>> #3. Please let me know if you have any questions. > >>>> BR, > >>>> Farid > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:08 AM > >>>>> To: Adrangi, Farid > >>>>> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; > gwz@cisco.com; > >>>>> jsalowey@cisco.com Subject: Re: FW: I-D > >>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> As I recall there was a discussion relating to the appropriate > >>>>> applicability statement that should be attached to this > document. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Have we come to agreement on what the applicability statement > >>>>> should be?=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Adrangi, Farid wrote: > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>> Hi Everyone, > >>>>>> In this version, we have done some editorial fixes through > out > >>>>>> the document and addressed issues brought up during IESG > review. > >>>>>> ** Editorial changes are summarized in > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>> http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/Editorial_c > >>>>> hanges.txt > >>>>>> ** List of issues with their resolutions are summarized in > >>>>>>=20 > >> http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/issues-1.txt > >>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>> Farid > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org > >>>>>>> [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > >>>>>>> Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 8:04 > AM > >>>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > >>>>>>> Subject: I-D > >> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > >>>>>>>=20 > >>>>>>>=20 > >>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line > >>>>>>> Internet-Drafts directories. > >>>>>>>=20 > >>>>>>>=20 > >>>>>>> Title : Identity selection hints for > >>>>>>> Extensible Authentication > >>>>>>> Protocol (EAP) > >>>>>>> Author(s) : F. Adrangi, et al. > >>>>>>> Filename : > >>>> draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > >>>>>>> Pages : 13 > >>>>>>> Date : 2005-3-25 > >>>>>>>=20 > >>>>>>> The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP) is defined in > RFC > >>>>>>> 3748. This document defines a mechanism that allows an > >>>>>>> access network to provide identity selection hints to an > EAP > >>>>>>> peer. The purpose is to assist the EAP peer in selecting > an > >>>>>>> appropriate Network Access Identifier (NAI) when there is > no > >>>>>>> direct roaming relationship between the access network > and > >>>>>>> the peer's home network. In this case, authentication is > >>>>>>> typically accomplished via a mediating network such as a > >>>>>>> roaming consortium or broker.=20 > >>>>>>>=20 > >>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > >>>>>>>=20 > >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network- > >>>>>> discovery-11.txt > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a > >>>>>> message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word > >>>>>> unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit > >>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > >>>>>> to change your subscription settings. > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login > with > >>>>>> the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail > address. > >>>>>> After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > >>>>>> "get draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt". > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > >>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > >>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>> Send a message to: > >>>>>> mailserv@ietf.org. > >>>>>> In the body type: > >>>>>> "FILE > >>>>>> /internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt". > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>> NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document > in > >>>>>> MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. > >> To use this > >>>>>> feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the > "FILE" > >>>>>> command. To decode the response(s), you will=20 > need "munpack" > or > >>>>>> a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different=20 > MIME-compliant mail > >>>>>> readers exhibit different behavior, especially=20 > when dealing > with > >>>>>> "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which=20 > have been > split > >>>>>> up into multiple messages), so check your local > documentation on > >>>>>> how to manipulate these messages. > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail > reader > >>>>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of > >>>>>> the Internet-Draft.=20 > >>>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> eap mailing list > >>>> eap@frascone.com > >>>> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 > Hope this helps, >=20 > ~gwz >=20 > Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by > simply > listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 5 01:18:09 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA19076 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 01:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF31204E3; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 01:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8B4204C4; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 01:18:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43AC9204C4 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 01:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr005.jf.intel.com (fmr20.intel.com [134.134.136.19]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E94204C0 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 01:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (orsfmr101.jf.intel.com [10.7.209.17]) by orsfmr005.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-outer.mc,v 1.1 2004/09/17 17:50:56 root Exp $) with ESMTP id j355GgD9016410; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 05:16:42 GMT Received: from orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com (orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.206]) by orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-inner.mc,v 1.2 2004/09/17 18:05:01 root Exp $) with SMTP id j355GgpI009214; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 05:16:42 GMT Received: from orsmsx331.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.56]) by orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.7.47) with SMTP id M2005040422164200825 ; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:16:42 -0700 Received: from orsmsx408.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.52]) by orsmsx331.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:16:42 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] RE: draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] RE: draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt Thread-Index: AcU5f5MCJ7Up60OuRMypCPY/9cUZiQABI/UgAAH4PGAABEJLUA== From: "Adrangi, Farid" To: Cc: , "Bernard Aboba" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Apr 2005 05:16:42.0188 (UTC) FILETIME=[A726C8C0:01C5399E] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:16:32 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Glen, Thanks so much for your quick review and feedback. And thanks for confirming fixes for issues 287 & 293 :-) Please see my comments inline. BR, Farid > -----Original Message----- > From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]=20 > On Behalf Of Glen Zorn (gwz) > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 9:04 PM > To: eap@frascone.com > Cc: jsalowey@cisco.com; gwz@cisco.com; 'Bernard Aboba' > Subject: RE: [eap] RE: draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >=20 >=20 > Glen Zorn (gwz) <> supposedly scribbled: >=20 > > Bernard Aboba supposedly scribbled: > >=20 > >> Can you review -11 and confirm that issues 287 and 293 have been > >> resolved to your satisfaction? > >=20 > > You betcha, this evening. >=20 > As far as issues 287 & 293, looks OK to me. A few other comments: >=20 > 1. (editorial) I think the paragraph break here >=20 > In such scenarios, a limited number of identity hints (e.g., a=20 > list of roaming partners of the access network) can be provided=20 > by the mechanism to enable the EAP peer to influence routing of > AAA packets. >=20 > The immediate application of the proposed mechanism is in 3GPP > systems interworking with WLANs [TS 23.234] and [TS 24.234]. The > roaming partner information provided via this mechanism is > limited by > the link layer MTU size. For example, assuming an average of 20 >=20 > is in the wrong place -- this make more sense to me: >=20 > In such scenarios, a limited number of identity hints (e.g., a=20 > list of roaming partners of the access network) can be provided=20 > by the mechanism to enable the EAP peer to influence routing of > AAA packets. The immediate application of the proposed mechanism > is in 3GPP systems interworking with WLANs [TS 23.234] and=20 > [TS 24.234]. =20 >=20 > The roaming partner information provided via this mechanism is=20 > limited by the link layer MTU size. For example, assuming an=20 > average of 20 >=20 [FA] Good suggestion! Will do. > 2. (technical) It's not clear to me what the required behavior is > from the following (section 2. paragraph 3) >=20 > If the peer responds with an EAP-Response/Identity containing an > unknown realm after the local AAA proxy/server sends an identity > hint, then the local AAA proxy/server MAY respond immediately > with an > EAP Failure packet. Alternatively, it MAY first send an > EAP-Notification providing the reason for the failure. >=20 > I think what is meant is that the proxy MAY send an EAP-Notification > message before sending EAP FAILURE, but EAP Failure is always sent > in this case. If that is correct, may I suggest the following > replacement text: >=20 > If the peer responds with an EAP-Response/Identity containing an > unknown realm after the local AAA proxy/server sends an identity > hint, then the local AAA proxy/server MAY send an > EAP-Notification > message providing the reason for the failure; whether an > EAP notification message is sent, the AAA proxy/server MUST > respond=20 > with an EAP Failure packet.=20 >=20 > or something similar. >=20 [FA] Ok. I thought we could send an EAP-Notificaiton or Failure message - I guess I was wrong. So, how about if we say: " If the peer responds with an EAP-Response/Identity containing an unknown realm after the local AAA proxy/server sends an identity hint, then the local AAA proxy/server MUST respond with an EAP Failure packet. The local AAA proxy/server MAY also send an EAP-Notification message providing the reason for the failure." Will this work for you? > 3. The message flows in the Appendix only shoe the success cases -- > it would be nice if at least one failure case was illustrated. [FA] Ok. I will a failure case to one of the delivery options.=20 > >=20 > >>=20 > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:29:40 -0700 > >> From: "Adrangi, Farid" > >> To: Bernard Aboba > >> Cc: eap@frascone.com, iesg@ietf.org, Jari Arkko > >> , gwz@cisco.com, jsalowey@cisco.com, > >> Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, Eugene Chang > >> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D > >> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > >>=20 > >> I don't recall talking about an IESG note on the mailing list! > >> Anyhow, as to your strawman IESG note, it should be noted that > the > >> draft was reviewed and accepted by IEEE 802.11 (WIEN? - the WG > has > >> sent an official review report to IETF. And also, I would remove > the > >> last part of the note: "and it is not recommended for > implementation > >> outside of 3GPP." I think we should state the facts about the > >> solution and let the implementer decided whether or not the > solution > >> is suitable for their deployments outside 3GPP. BR, > >> Farid > >>=20 > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:08 PM > >>> To: Adrangi, Farid > >>> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; > >>> jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang > >>> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D > >>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>> I think we were talking about an IESG note in addition to > material > >>> in the applicability statement, no? > >>>=20 > >>> For example, EAP SIM contains the following note: > >>>=20 > >>> IESG Note > >>>=20 > >>> The EAP-SIM protocol was developed by 3GPP. The documentation > of > >>> EAP-SIM is provided as information to the Internet community. > While > >>> the EAP WG has verified that EAP-SIM is compatible with EAP as > >>> defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including > >>> validation of the security claims. > >>>=20 > >>> Here is a potential strawman note for the EAP Network Discovery > >>> document:=20 > >>>=20 > >>> EAP Network Discovery was developed by 3GPP. Documentation is > >>> provided as information to the Internet community. While the > EAP WG > >>> has verified that EAP Network Discovery is compatible with EAP > as > >>> defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including > >>> investigation of potential security issues. There is work > underway > >>> in IEEE 802.11 which may provide similar functionality, > enabling an > >>> EAP peer to determine network availability prior to handoff. > As a > >>> result, the approach described in this document may be > superceded > >>> by future standards, and it is not recommended for > implementation > >>> outside of 3GPP. > >=20 > > Hope this helps, > >=20 > > ~gwz > >=20 > > Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by > simply > > listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel > > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list > > eap@frascone.com > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 > Hope this helps, >=20 > ~gwz >=20 > Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by > simply > listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 5 02:12:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA04106 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 02:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8B9204F1; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 02:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD16D204C4; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 02:12:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CBC204C4 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 02:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AAF2204C0 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 02:11:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DIhHj-000Lqu-9o; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 02:11:35 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j356BX928434; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:11:33 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: "Glen Zorn (gwz)" Cc: "'Adrangi, Farid'" , eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt In-Reply-To: <200504050255.j352tsgS022841@sj-core-3.cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <200504050255.j352tsgS022841@sj-core-3.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:11:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > Last time I checked, WIEN was just a study group (the 802.11 > equivalent of a BOF). Has this changed? Yes, it has. WIEN has now been chartered as 802.11u. > Did we receive a liaison from the 802.11 Working Group or a note > from the WIEN Study Group? There's a big difference... We got a note from WIEN indicating that they had reviewed the document and found that it was not in conflict with the proposed PAR for 802.11u. Having said that, the 802.11u PAR does authorize work on network selection within state 1 (unassociated, unauthenticated; EAP network discovery requires the STA to be in state 3 (associated, authenticated). _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From SeymourMullen@electronica-usa.org Tue Apr 5 02:20:29 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA12248 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 02:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DIhYN-0002fb-Uw for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 02:28:49 -0400 Received: from c-24-60-18-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net ([24.60.18.74]) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DIhQG-0008IJ-VX for eap-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 02:20:25 -0400 Received: from PMt@localhost by Iyv.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Tue, 05 Apr 2005 06:29:52 -0100 Message-ID: From: "Garth Stein" Reply-To: "Garth Stein" To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: Win a brand new Jaguar XJ 2005 in our casino ID:SMM7k Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 05:29:52 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: SeymourMullen@electronica-usa.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--E5OGe2rNKdLwdNg" X-Spam-Score: 12.6 (++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 F51 ----E5OGe2rNKdLwdNg Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dpy4NiboFew

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----E5OGe2rNKdLwdNg-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 5 11:06:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28319 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDF4206A5; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C0020534; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:06:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BA22056B for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:05:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9E8C20534 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from az33exr03.mot.com (az33exr03.mot.com [10.64.251.233]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id j35F59Q0005016 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:05:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from il27exm03.cig.mot.com (il27exm03.cig.mot.com [10.17.193.4]) by az33exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j35F676s016751 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:06:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: by il27exm03.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:05:07 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 To: eap@frascone.com, "'henry.haverinen@nokia.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C539F0.D9AD866C" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:05:05 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C539F0.D9AD866C Content-Type: text/plain Hi, I have a question regarding the EAP-SIM method for fast re-authentication and would appreciate it if the authors and other people respond. Why is a specific identity used for fast re-authentication? What is the problem with using the identities that were used during the full authentication? The initial identity that is sent in EAP-Response/ Identity should not have a problem, right? 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Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95558206AC; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A8742058D; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:13:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511522058D for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:12:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1CF520582 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Apr 2005 10:12:32 -0700 Received: from gwzw2k01 (sjc-vpn6-268.cisco.com [10.21.121.12]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j35HCPgT024038; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200504051712.j35HCPgT024038@sj-core-3.cisco.com> Reply-To: From: "Glen Zorn (gwz)" To: "'Adrangi, Farid'" , "'Bernard Aboba'" Cc: , , "'Jari Arkko'" , , , "'Eugene Chang'" Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcU36Zc402VBn6AFS+W4rxdYTRQc/AA4x82QAC8VD3AAA+DrAAAaO/sg In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:12:25 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrangi, Farid supposedly scribbled: > Hi Glen, > The report was sent to IETF -- will send you a copy if I find it in > my archives. OK, cool. I must admit to some confusion on this issue: a cursory search of IETF liaisons @ https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaisons.cgi didn't turn up anything; furthermore, since Bernard is listed as the IETF liaison to IEEE 802, I would think that he would be aware of said document. I'm not doubting your veracity in the least: it's just a bit weird. > I will let IESG interpret the report and decide whether > not it should be mentioned in the IESG applicability note! So, > Please discard my e-mail. Brian made it clear to me that it is IESG's > responsibility to determine the need for the applicability note and > its content! BR, > Farid > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Glen Zorn (gwz) [mailto:gwz@cisco.com] >> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 7:56 PM >> To: Adrangi, Farid; 'Bernard Aboba' >> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; 'Jari Arkko'; >> jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; 'Eugene Chang' >> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D >> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >> >> >> Adrangi, Farid supposedly >> scribbled: >> >>> I don't recall talking about an IESG note on the mailing list! >>> Anyhow, as to your strawman IESG note, it should be noted that the >>> draft was reviewed and accepted by IEEE 802.11 >> >> I'm not sure what this means. Does it mean accepted as in "whatever >> you want to do" or as in adopted as correct? >> >>> (WIEN? - >> >> Last time I checked, WIEN was just a study group (the 802.11 >> equivalent of a BOF). Has this changed? >> >>> the WG has >>> sent an official review report to IETF. >> >> Did we receive a liaison from the 802.11 Working Group or a note from >> the WIEN Study Group? There's a big difference... >> >>> And also, I would remove the >>> last part of the note: "and it is not recommended for implementation >>> outside of 3GPP." I think we should state the facts about the >>> solution >> >> Unless the draft has changed drastically for the better, the facts >> were pretty slim, certainly too slim for it to be called a "solution" >> (without volumes of supporting documentation). >> >>> and let the implementer decided whether or not the solution is >>> suitable for their deployments outside 3GPP. >> >> If and when the RFC Editor becomes a vanity publisher for 3GPP, I >> will agree; until then, however, I think that we at least a right >> (if not a duty) to publish applicability statements that express the >> opinions of the IETF (regardless if those opinions coincide with >> those of the author(s)). >> >> >>> BR, >>> Farid >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:08 PM >>>> To: Adrangi, Farid >>>> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; >>>> jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang >>>> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D >>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>>> >>>> >>>> I think we were talking about an IESG note in addition to material >>>> in the applicability statement, no? >>>> >>>> For example, EAP SIM contains the following note: >>>> >>>> IESG Note >>>> >>>> The EAP-SIM protocol was developed by 3GPP. The documentation >>>> of EAP-SIM is provided as information to the Internet community. >>>> While the EAP WG has verified that EAP-SIM is compatible with >>>> EAP as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, >>>> including validation of the security claims. >>>> >>>> Here is a potential strawman note for the EAP Network Discovery >>>> document: >>>> >>>> EAP Network Discovery was developed by 3GPP. Documentation is >>>> provided as information to the Internet community. While the >>>> EAP WG has verified that EAP Network Discovery is compatible >>>> with EAP as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, >>>> including investigation of potential security issues. There is >>>> work underway in IEEE 802.11 which may provide similar >>>> functionality, enabling an EAP peer to determine network >>>> availability prior to handoff. As a result, the approach >>>> described in this document may be superceded by future >>>> standards, and it is not recommended for implementation outside >>>> of 3GPP. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Adrangi, Farid wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sorry, just to be clear, the link below contains the update we >>>>> made to the applicability section in -011 version, based on Glen's >>>>> comment on -10 version in the last WG meeting. >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Farid >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] On >>>>>> Behalf Of Adrangi, Farid Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:33 AM >>>>>> To: Bernard Aboba Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari >>>>>> Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; >>>>>> Eugene Chang Subject: [eap] RE: FW: I-D >>>>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I think so! The applicability section was introduced in version >>>>>> -08. Since then we have made several updates to that section >>>>>> based on comments from Glen Zorn, Eugene Chang, Jari Arkko, and >>>>>> yourself. The updates to this section was made based on Glen >>>>>> Zorn's comment during the last IETF meeting (relayed to me by >>>>>> Pasi) -- the exact change is captured in >>>>>> http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/issues-1.tx t >>>>>> -- see #3. Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>>> BR, >>>>>> Farid >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:08 AM >>>>>>> To: Adrangi, Farid >>>>>>> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; >>>>>>> jsalowey@cisco.com Subject: Re: FW: I-D >>>>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I recall there was a discussion relating to the appropriate >>>>>>> applicability statement that should be attached to this >>>>>>> document. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have we come to agreement on what the applicability statement >>>>>>> should be? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Adrangi, Farid wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>>>>> In this version, we have done some editorial fixes through out >>>>>>>> the document and addressed issues brought up during IESG >>>>>>>> review. ** Editorial changes are summarized in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/Editorial_c >>>>>>> hanges.txt >>>>>>>> ** List of issues with their resolutions are summarized in >>>>>>>> >>>> http://mng.ctgisp.com/IETF/EAP/Network%20Selection/issues-1.txt >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Farid >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>> Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 8:04 AM >>>>>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D >>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >>>>>>>>> Internet-Drafts directories. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Title : Identity selection hints for >>>>>>>>> Extensible Authentication >>>>>>>>> Protocol (EAP) >>>>>>>>> Author(s) : F. Adrangi, et al. >>>>>>>>> Filename : >>>>>> draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>>>>>>>> Pages : 13 >>>>>>>>> Date : 2005-3-25 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP) is defined in RFC >>>>>>>>> 3748. This document defines a mechanism that allows an >>>>>>>>> access network to provide identity selection hints to an >>>>>>>>> EAP peer. The purpose is to assist the EAP peer in >>>>>>>>> selecting an appropriate Network Access Identifier (NAI) >>>>>>>>> when there is no direct roaming relationship between the >>>>>>>>> access network and the peer's home network. In this case, >>>>>>>>> authentication is typically accomplished via a mediating >>>>>>>>> network such as a roaming consortium or broker. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >>>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network- >>>>>>>> discovery-11.txt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a >>>>>>>> message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word >>>>>>>> unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit >>>>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce >>>>>>>> to change your subscription settings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with >>>>>>>> the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. >>>>>>>> After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then >>>>>>>> "get draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >>>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or >>>>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Send a message to: >>>>>>>> mailserv@ietf.org. >>>>>>>> In the body type: >>>>>>>> "FILE >>>>>>>> /internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in >>>>>>>> MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. >>>> To use this >>>>>>>> feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" >>>>>>>> command. To decode the response(s), you will >> need "munpack" >> or >>>>>>>> a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail >>>>>>>> readers exhibit different behavior, especially >> when dealing >> with >>>>>>>> "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which >> have been >> split >>>>>>>> up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation >>>>>>>> on how to manipulate these messages. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail >>>>>>>> reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII >>>>>>>> version of the Internet-Draft. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> eap mailing list >>>>>> eap@frascone.com >>>>>> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >> >> Hope this helps, >> >> ~gwz >> >> Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by simply >> listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel Hope this helps, ~gwz Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by simply listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 5 15:29:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23235 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A64206B3; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA73205BC; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:29:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C24E4205BC for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EEDD20582 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23218; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200504051928.PAA23218@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: eap@frascone.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-eap-keying-06.txt Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 15:28:33 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Extensible Authentication Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP) Key Management Framework Author(s) : B. Aboba, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-eap-keying-06.txt Pages : 70 Date : 2005-4-5 The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP), defined in [RFC3748], enables extensible network access authentication. This document provides a framework for the generation, transport and usage of keying material generated by EAP authentication algorithms, known as 'methods'. It also specifies the EAP key hierarchy. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-keying-06.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-eap-keying-06.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-keying-06.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-4-5160019.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-keying-06.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-eap-keying-06.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-4-5160019.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 5 16:28:11 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA13261 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B400206B6; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FD3206A8; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:28:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ECD6206A8 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65987205BC for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Apr 2005 13:26:55 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.91,152,1110182400"; d="scan'208"; a="245958165:sNHT3750776508" Received: from gwzw2k01 (sjc-vpn6-268.cisco.com [10.21.121.12]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j35KQqgS000307; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200504052026.j35KQqgS000307@sj-core-3.cisco.com> Reply-To: From: "Glen Zorn (gwz)" To: "'Adrangi, Farid'" Cc: , "'Bernard Aboba'" , Subject: RE: [eap] RE: draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcU5f5MCJ7Up60OuRMypCPY/9cUZiQABI/UgAAH4PGAABEJLUAAf7Xdg In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:26:52 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrangi, Farid supposedly scribbled: > " > If the peer responds with an EAP-Response/Identity containing an > unknown realm after the local AAA proxy/server sends an identity > hint, then the local AAA proxy/server MUST respond with an EAP > Failure packet. The local AAA proxy/server MAY also send an > EAP-Notification message providing the reason for the failure." > > Will this work for you? I'm pretty sure that the EAP-{Request, Response}/Notification exchange has to come before EAP Failure; if you could make that sequential character clear (which I attempted to do, but apparently failed), it would be great. > > >> 3. The message flows in the Appendix only shoe the success cases -- >> it would be nice if at least one failure case was illustrated. > > [FA] Ok. I will a failure case to one of the delivery options. > >>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:29:40 -0700 >>>> From: "Adrangi, Farid" >>>> To: Bernard Aboba >>>> Cc: eap@frascone.com, iesg@ietf.org, Jari Arkko >>>> , gwz@cisco.com, jsalowey@cisco.com, >>>> Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, Eugene Chang >>>> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D >>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>>> >>>> I don't recall talking about an IESG note on the mailing list! >>>> Anyhow, as to your strawman IESG note, it should be noted that the >>>> draft was reviewed and accepted by IEEE 802.11 (WIEN? - the WG has >>>> sent an official review report to IETF. And also, I would remove >>>> the last part of the note: "and it is not recommended for >>>> implementation outside of 3GPP." I think we should state the >>>> facts about the solution and let the implementer decided whether >>>> or not the solution is suitable for their deployments outside >>>> 3GPP. BR, Farid >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:08 PM >>>>> To: Adrangi, Farid >>>>> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; gwz@cisco.com; >>>>> jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang >>>>> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D >>>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think we were talking about an IESG note in addition to material >>>>> in the applicability statement, no? >>>>> >>>>> For example, EAP SIM contains the following note: >>>>> >>>>> IESG Note >>>>> >>>>> The EAP-SIM protocol was developed by 3GPP. The documentation of >>>>> EAP-SIM is provided as information to the Internet community. >>>>> While the EAP WG has verified that EAP-SIM is compatible with EAP >>>>> as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, including >>>>> validation of the security claims. >>>>> >>>>> Here is a potential strawman note for the EAP Network Discovery >>>>> document: >>>>> >>>>> EAP Network Discovery was developed by 3GPP. Documentation is >>>>> provided as information to the Internet community. While the EAP >>>>> WG has verified that EAP Network Discovery is compatible with >>>>> EAP as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, >>>>> including investigation of potential security issues. There is >>>>> work underway in IEEE 802.11 which may provide similar >>>>> functionality, enabling an EAP peer to determine network >>>>> availability prior to handoff. As a result, the approach >>>>> described in this document may be superceded by future >>>>> standards, and it is not recommended for implementation outside >>>>> of 3GPP. >>> >>> Hope this helps, >>> >>> ~gwz >>> >>> Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by >>> simply listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel >>> _______________________________________________ eap mailing list >>> eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >> >> Hope this helps, >> >> ~gwz >> >> Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by simply >> listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel >> _______________________________________________ >> eap mailing list >> eap@frascone.com >> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap Hope this helps, ~gwz Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by simply listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 5 16:49:09 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA15615 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:49:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECEAD204EE; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EFD4204C9; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:49:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB782204C9 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr005.jf.intel.com (fmr20.intel.com [134.134.136.19]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF2E0204C7 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (orsfmr101.jf.intel.com [10.7.209.17]) by orsfmr005.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-outer.mc,v 1.1 2004/09/17 17:50:56 root Exp $) with ESMTP id j35Km8D9001111; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:48:08 GMT Received: from orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com (orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.206]) by orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-inner.mc,v 1.2 2004/09/17 18:05:01 root Exp $) with SMTP id j35Km7pI020604; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:48:07 GMT Received: from orsmsx331.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.56]) by orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.7.47) with SMTP id M2005040513480717425 ; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:48:07 -0700 Received: from orsmsx408.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.52]) by orsmsx331.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:48:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] RE: draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] RE: draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt Thread-Index: AcU5f5MCJ7Up60OuRMypCPY/9cUZiQABI/UgAAH4PGAABEJLUAAf7XdgAADgDAA= From: "Adrangi, Farid" To: Cc: , "Bernard Aboba" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Apr 2005 20:48:07.0420 (UTC) FILETIME=[C55873C0:01C53A20] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:48:06 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok. So, we can revise the text as follows: " If the peer responds with an EAP-Response/Identity containing an unknown realm after the local AAA proxy/server sends an identity hint, then the local AAA proxy/server MUST respond with an EAP Failure packet. The local AAA proxy/server MAY also send an EAP-Notification message providing the reason for the failure prior=20 to the EAP Failure packet. " Will this work for you? BR, Farid > -----Original Message----- > From: Glen Zorn (gwz) [mailto:gwz@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 1:27 PM > To: Adrangi, Farid > Cc: jsalowey@cisco.com; 'Bernard Aboba'; eap@frascone.com > Subject: RE: [eap] RE: draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt >=20 >=20 > Adrangi, Farid supposedly > scribbled: >=20 > > " > > If the peer responds with an EAP-Response/Identity containing an > > unknown realm after the local AAA proxy/server sends an identity > > hint, then the local AAA proxy/server MUST respond with an EAP > > Failure packet. The local AAA proxy/server MAY also send an > > EAP-Notification message providing the reason for the failure." >=20 > >=20 > > Will this work for you? >=20 > I'm pretty sure that the EAP-{Request, Response}/Notification > exchange has to come before EAP Failure; if you could make that > sequential character clear (which I attempted to do, but apparently > failed), it would be great. >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >> 3. The message flows in the Appendix only shoe the success cases > -- > >> it would be nice if at least one failure case was illustrated. > >=20 > > [FA] Ok. I will a failure case to one of the delivery options. > >=20 > >>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:29:40 -0700 > >>>> From: "Adrangi, Farid" > >>>> To: Bernard Aboba > >>>> Cc: eap@frascone.com, iesg@ietf.org, Jari Arkko > >>>> , gwz@cisco.com, jsalowey@cisco.com, > >>>> Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, Eugene Chang > > >>>> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D > >>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > >>>>=20 > >>>> I don't recall talking about an IESG note on the mailing list! > >>>> Anyhow, as to your strawman IESG note, it should be noted that > the > >>>> draft was reviewed and accepted by IEEE 802.11 (WIEN? - the WG > has > >>>> sent an official review report to IETF. And also, I would > remove > >>>> the last part of the note: "and it is not recommended for > >>>> implementation outside of 3GPP." I think we should state the > >>>> facts about the solution and let the implementer decided > whether > >>>> or not the solution is suitable for their deployments outside > >>>> 3GPP. BR, Farid=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:08 PM > >>>>> To: Adrangi, Farid > >>>>> Cc: eap@frascone.com; iesg@ietf.org; Jari Arkko; > gwz@cisco.com; > >>>>> jsalowey@cisco.com; Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com; Eugene Chang > >>>>> Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D > >>>>> ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> I think we were talking about an IESG note in addition to > material > >>>>> in the applicability statement, no? > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> For example, EAP SIM contains the following note: > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> IESG Note > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> The EAP-SIM protocol was developed by 3GPP. The documentation > of > >>>>> EAP-SIM is provided as information to the Internet community. > >>>>> While the EAP WG has verified that EAP-SIM is compatible with > EAP > >>>>> as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, > including > >>>>> validation of the security claims. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Here is a potential strawman note for the EAP Network > Discovery > >>>>> document:=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> EAP Network Discovery was developed by 3GPP. Documentation > is > >>>>> provided as information to the Internet community. While the > EAP > >>>>> WG has verified that EAP Network Discovery is compatible with=20 > >>>>> EAP as defined in RFC 3748, no other review has been done, > >>>>> including investigation of potential security issues. There > is > >>>>> work underway in IEEE 802.11 which may provide similar > >>>>> functionality, enabling an EAP peer to determine network > >>>>> availability prior to handoff. As a result, the approach > >>>>> described in this document may be superceded by future > >>>>> standards, and it is not recommended for implementation > outside > >>>>> of 3GPP.=20 > >>>=20 > >>> Hope this helps, > >>>=20 > >>> ~gwz > >>>=20 > >>> Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by > >>> simply listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel > >>> _______________________________________________ eap mailing list > >>> eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > >>=20 > >> Hope this helps, > >>=20 > >> ~gwz > >>=20 > >> Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by > simply > >> listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel > >> _______________________________________________ > >> eap mailing list > >> eap@frascone.com > >> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap >=20 > Hope this helps, >=20 > ~gwz >=20 > Why is it that most of the world's problems can't be solved by > simply > listening to John Coltrane? -- Henry Gabriel >=20 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 5 20:45:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA06018 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7187120589; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D60620537; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:45:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD6D20526 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E286720520 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DIyea-00098o-Kt; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:44:20 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j360iJD31549; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:44:19 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: "Glen Zorn (gwz)" Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] RE: FW: I-D ACTION:draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-11.txt In-Reply-To: <200504051712.j35HCPgT024038@sj-core-3.cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <200504051712.j35HCPgT024038@sj-core-3.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:44:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > OK, cool. I must admit to some confusion on this issue: a cursory > search of IETF liaisons @ > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/liaisons.cgi didn't turn up > anything; furthermore, since Bernard is listed as the IETF liaison > to IEEE 802, I would think that he would be aware of said document. > I'm not doubting your veracity in the least: it's just a bit weird. I've dug through my email and IEEE 802 document archive. It appears that some of the liaison communications were not cc:'d to statements@ietf.org, which may explain why they didn't end up on the liaisons page. In any case, they are now available on the web at the following links: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IEEE/stuart1.txt http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IEEE/11-04-1109-01-0000-input-to-ietf-from-wien-ad-hoc-september-2004.doc http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IEEE/11-04-xxxx-00-0000-input-to-ietf-from-WIEN-Ad-Hoc-November-2004.doc Below find the text of the Network Discovery review (the September 2004 document). Note the reference to potential future standards work in 802.11 (now chartered as 802.11u). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stuart J.Kerry, Chair IEEE 802.11 Working Group To: Harald Alvestrand, IETF Chair CC: Bernard Aboba, IETF to IEEE 802 liaison Title: Review IETF EAP draft documents, September 2004 Purpose: Review of IETF draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-03 Dear Harald, As mentioned in our earlier liaison, the IEEE 802.11 Wireless Interworking with External Networks Study Group (WIEN SG) is investigating the changes needed to the IEEE 802.11 specification to support interworking with external non-IEEE 802.11 networks. Attached are comments regarding the document "Identity selection hints for Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP)" (draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-03), for IETF consideration. The draft provides an effective solution for network identity selection at the EAP level, minimizing the impact on the existing EAP messages, with very little impact on access points and associated infrastructure. It is noted that this solution applies to EAP enabled hotspot deployments only; it does not apply to those that utilize the web based access methods, such as the WiFi Alliance Universal Access Method (UAM), mode of authentication. Within option 3, network hints are only received when the authentication attempt cannot be successfully routed to the home network. This information may be useful even for a successful attempt, providing similar functionality to options 1 and 2. The draft is a reasonable approach for a solution using EAP. IEEE 802.11 intends to investigate network identity selection solutions that occur at an earlier stage, prior to association and the subsequent use of EAP. It appears that the EAP solution can co-exist with future IEEE 802.11 link layer solutions. Potential characteristics of the IEEE 802.11 link layer solution are: " It is applicable to both the UAM and IEEE 802.11i based solutions " An EAP exchange is not required to receive network information " Association attempts with invalid networks are avoided " Passive network selection is possible " It reduces the message overhead for roaming We look forward to continued dialogue on network discovery topics. For IETF reference, ANSI/IEEE Std 802.11 -1999 (2003 Reaffirmation) edition as amended by IEEE Std 802.11g-2003 and IEEE Std. 802.11h-2003 is the current version of the IEEE 802.11 Standard. Please contact Stuart J.Kerry, IEEE 802.11 Working Group Chair together with Stephen McCann, IEEE 802.11 WIEN SG chair and Dorothy Stanley, IEEE 802.11/IETF Liaison with any questions, and to discuss further IETF follow-up. Best Regards, Stuart J. Kerry Contact information: Stuart J Kerry stuart.kerry@philips.com +1 408 474 7356 Stephen McCann stephen.mccann@roke.co.uk +44 1794 833341 Dorothy Stanley dstanley@agere.com +1 630 979 1572 _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 5 21:08:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA07789 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82BA020520; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2740720526; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:08:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88B720526 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E820020520 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DIz0a-000BD9-9x for eap@frascone.com; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:07:04 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j36173L00450 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:07:03 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: eap@frascone.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] Split of EAP Key Management Framework document Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:07:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) I'm currently working on the second half of the split of the EAP Key Management framework document, the EAP Key Management Extensions document. An early version of this will be available for inspection here by the end of the week: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/draft-aboba-eap-keying-extns-00.txt _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 5 22:31:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA13816 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46D53206BB; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:31:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759E520587; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:31:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8AA20587 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr003.jf.intel.com (fmr18.intel.com [134.134.136.17]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384C02054B for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr100.jf.intel.com (orsfmr100.jf.intel.com [10.7.209.16]) by orsfmr003.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-outer.mc,v 1.1 2004/09/17 17:50:56 root Exp $) with ESMTP id j362UTqT011398; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 02:30:29 GMT Received: from orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com (orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.206]) by orsfmr100.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-inner.mc,v 1.2 2004/09/17 18:05:01 root Exp $) with SMTP id j362UKeY022206; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 02:30:29 GMT Received: from orsmsx332.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.60]) by orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.7.47) with SMTP id M2005040519302903774 ; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:30:29 -0700 Received: from orsmsx402.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.208]) by orsmsx332.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:30:29 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes thread-index: AcUult+FPjsDvvzeT+CM7dRZ8huz5AAdW4Bg From: "Bakshi, Sanjay" To: "Bernard Aboba" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Apr 2005 02:30:29.0419 (UTC) FILETIME=[9954BFB0:01C53A50] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:30:28 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bernard, I have tried to answer your questions below as best as I can. I need to provide more details in order to fully answer some your questions. But one thing is apparent, 802.16e follow the eap-keying-06 upto the point of delivery of AAA-Key to authenticator. But Security Association Protocol is not followed fully as detailed in the eap-keying-06. Following is more generalized version of my question that I had earlier asked. I prefer not to get dragged into overall 802.16e security analysis over the email at this point. The question is: What are the issues with having multiple relaying/switching devices between a Peer and an Authenticator .. specifically a pass-thru Authenticator? Issues that come to my mind are=20 a) MTU discovery=20 For the minimum MTU of 1020 specified in RFC3748 can be used b) Channel Binding Are there any EAP methods that implement this? It is not clear to me how Channel Binding is implemented when pass- thru authenticator is in use. This because the Channel (lower layer) between peer and pass-thru authenticator is different from the lower=20 layer between pass-thru authenticator and AAA backend that execute the=20 EAP method. Is my understanding correct? Appreciate answers/clarifications to these. Thanks, --sanjay >>-----Original Message----- >>From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf Of >>Bernard Aboba >>Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 8:22 PM >>To: eap@frascone.com >>Subject: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes >> >>The EAP Key Management Framework includes security requirements for EAP >>usage modes. In particular, the "Housley Criteria" describes the >>requirements for publication of AAA key management documents in the IETF. >>My advice would be to look carefully at those requirements in order to >>understand whether 802.16e is compliant or not. [<>] The question I am asking is not related to AAA key management but I will nevertheless check the document >> >>> Basically, in the context of EAP in this model BS acts as a relay and >>> implements two functions. >>> >>> 1. On uplink BS removes EAP pdus from the PKMv2 encapsulation, >>> encapsulates them in a "to be defined" encapsulation and forwards them >>> to the Gateway which is a RADIUS client. >> >>Does the uplink BS perform any cryptographic operations on data or EAP >>packets? Or does it just encapsulate/decapsulate packets? [<>] It just encapsulates/decapsulates EAP packets. However, data from application sessions is encrypted.=20 >> >>> 2. On downlink BS removes EAP pdus from a "to be defined" >>> encapsulation, encapsulates them in PKMv2 and forwards them to the MSS >> >>Where are cryptographic keys stored in this architecture? On the MSS? on >>the BS? On both? How are the keys transported? How many parties possess >>them? [<>]=20 Main keys on MSS (peer) and BS (Authenticator) MSK, AAA-Key as per eap-keying-draft PMK derived by truncation from AAA-Key. AK (Authentication Key) derived from PMK using a KDF(PMK, SS ID, BS, ID) Two MACs (uplink and downlink) for signing the control messages One or more TEK (Traffic Encryption Keys) for encrypting user traffic. These are derived from randoms by the BS and sent to MSS MSK, AAA-Key are transported as per eap-keying-draft PMK, AK, MACs are derived by peer and authenticator independently >> >>How are transient session keys derived? How are they bound to the correct >>context? How are authorization attributes handled? Does this ensure >>proper cryptographic binding? >> [<>] These are defined in 802.16 specs. If people are interested in getting an update on that, I will be glad to provide material for that. >>> BS does not implement any Authenticator functions. >> >>How do the parties identify themselves within the IEEE 802.16e exchanges? >>If the BS is not an authenticator, then the EAP peer cannot be aware of >>its identity; that is, the BS must appear to be a port of the MSS, and >>the EAP peer can only be aware of the MSS identity in the layer below EAP. >>Is this how 802.16e works? >>=20 [<>] Assuming I understood your question correctly. Upon successful network entry (at PHY and MAC layer), MSS gets a connection identifier that represent the connection to the BS and eap packet are exchanged over this connection. So in my opinion for forwarding EAP packets, BS does appear as a port to EAP-peer. >>How does IEEE 802.16e negotiate the key lifetime of the MSK and TSKs? Is >>this done explicitly? What meaning is ascribed to the RADIUS Session-Time >>attribute? [<>] Lifetime of MSK (derived from the eap session) is expected to be exchange by RADIUS Session-Time attribute. There is no Security Association protocol defined for lifetime management etc. of the AAA-key. IMO equivalent to TSKs, 802.16e has TEKs (Traffic Encryption Key) but 802.16e's current key derivation of TEKs does not follow the guidelines mentioned in 1.3.3 of eap-keying-06. TEKs are derived as randoms by BS and send to MSS encrypted and signed by keys derived from PMK(AAA-Key) >> >>How are keys named in IEEE 802.16e? How do the parties synchronize the >>key cache? Are the messages within the Secure Association protocol >>authenticated? [<>] 802.16e does not define anything analogous to Secure Association protocol. Validity of AAA-Key in Authenticator and MSS is assumed. There is a 3-way handshake to verify the liveliness of the session key namely (AK) that is derived from AAA-key >>_______________________________________________ >>eap mailing list >>eap@frascone.com >>http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From bxycugorh@antennauno.it Wed Apr 6 01:34:41 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA26758; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DJ3Jo-0006sS-M2; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 01:43:13 -0400 Received: from [210.14.38.69] (helo=65.246.255.50) by mx2.foretec.com with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DJ3BB-0004FW-FV; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 01:34:18 -0400 Received: from wsqque (210.14.38.69) by mail.hob.com (7.0.027) ; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:33:42 -0800 Message-ID: <000701c539b1$9beb4950$0301a8c0@wsqque> From: "Brandi Randle" To: rserpool@ietf.org, disman@ietf.org, rps-archive@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, ietf-archive@ietf.org, iporpr-admin@ietf.org, amyk@ietf.org, idr-admin@ietf.org, policy@ietf.org, rmonmib-admin@ietf.org, meeting-planning@ietf.org Subject: Refinance your mortgag*e at low rate. infringement lit Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:33:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.224 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.224 X-Spam-Score: 18.8 (++++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We tried contacting you awhile ago about your low interest mor-tgage rate. 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To get a free, no obl_igation consultation click below: http://bznjmlfloxqd.12refinancenow.com/x/loan.php?id=sv Best Regards, mortg-age Broker Specialist Brandi Randle From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Apr 6 01:47:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA27748 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F250206CA; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B470B206C2; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:47:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234CE206C2 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greenlantern.frascone.com (adsl-66-137-237-100.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net [66.137.237.100]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB522058B for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:46:32 -0400 (EDT) From: David Frascone To: eap@frascone.com Message-ID: <20050406004631.5cc5f45c@greenlantern.frascone.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050406105954.02736938@172.16.1.10> References: <20050405112101.15976.5106.Mailman@xavier> <6.1.2.0.0.20050406105954.02736938@172.16.1.10> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Face: BZe8R&S)}GEDsLp@ay#IT{'D/X6}Xu/])^zA7D2W{)kwVA7)IhgW*{QSX6W(\BWhSON`p7% e3xQ1oJ=Qb@cQf#x[_Qas)'1f0;9DQJ>02}F_!.`'y>LE~`8e'{XO=fNX{n#\1:s:`Xy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] Re: Your message to eap awaits moderator approval Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:46:31 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You're subscribed as sureshvv@intotoinc.com, which is not the same as where this mail came from: sureshvv@intoto.com. -Dave On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 11:01:43 +0530 Suresh wrote: > Hi > > I am a member of eap mailing list. And every month I get reminder mails and > all mail discussions. > I am not sure why my mail has been blocked. Kindly look into it. > > regards > Suresh > At 04:51 PM 4/5/2005, eap-admin@frascone.com wrote: > >Your mail to 'eap' with the subject > > > > EAP SIM and AKA identities. > > > >Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > > >The reason it is being held: > > > > Post by non-member to a members-only list > > > >Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > >notification of the moderator's decision. > > > -- David Frascone Smash forehead on keyboard to continue... _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Apr 6 03:07:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA08420 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FA0206D2; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5124206CC; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:07:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF51D206CC for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.intoto.com (ip-66-80-10-146.dsl.sca.megapath.net [66.80.10.146]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AF607206C6 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from brahma.intotoind.com ([172.16.1.10]) by smtp.intoto.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.0.59) with SMTP id M2005040600054713805 for ; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:05:49 -0700 Received: from sureshvv.intotoinc.com (2mc55.intotoind.com [172.16.2.55]) by brahma.intotoind.com (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j3676G1q014471 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:36:17 +0530 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20050406123959.0275f100@172.16.1.10> X-Sender: sureshvv@172.16.1.10 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 To: eap@frascone.com From: Suresh Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_180006765==.ALT" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.41 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] EAP SIM and AKA identities. Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 12:43:06 +0530 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) --=====================_180006765==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Hi >I have a small clarification in the identities and user names used in the >EAP-SIM and AKA implementations. >When ever a client needs to send fill in the AT_IDENTITY attribute, it has >to fill in the complete identity, and the identity may or may not have a >realm portion. >The format of the permanent user name is 0|IMSI and 1|IMSI for the AKA and >SIM respectively. >It is also given that > > The EAP server MAY use the leading "1" as a hint to try EAP-SIM as > the first authentication method during method negotiation, rather > than for example EAP/AKA. The EAP-SIM server MAY propose EAP-SIM > even if the leading character was not "1". > >for EAP-AKA. > >I could not understand how user name is sent to the EAP-Server, in actual, >complete identity is sent in the AT_IDENTITY attribute and not just the >user name. > >regards, >Suresh > > --=====================_180006765==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Hi
I have a small clarification in the identities and user names used in the EAP-SIM and AKA implementations.
When ever a client needs to send fill in the AT_IDENTITY attribute, it has to fill in the complete identity, and the identity may or may not have a realm portion.
The format of the permanent user name is 0|IMSI and 1|IMSI for the AKA and SIM respectively.
It is also given that

   The EAP server MAY use the leading "1" as a hint to try EAP-SIM as
   the first authentication method during method negotiation, rather
   than for example EAP/AKA.  The EAP-SIM server MAY propose EAP-SIM
   even if the leading character was not "1".

for EAP-AKA.

I could not understand how user name is sent to the EAP-Server, in actual, complete identity is sent in the AT_IDENTITY attribute and not just the user name.

regards,
Suresh
                                                                                                                                         

--=====================_180006765==.ALT-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Apr 6 03:42:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA10542 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A191206D4; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF23206D0; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:42:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D89206D0 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:41:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8F4206CF for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Apr 2005 00:41:32 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com [171.71.163.17]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j367fUDr014502; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from twieland-w2k02.cisco.com (sjc-vpn2-88.cisco.com [10.21.112.88]) by mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.5-GR) with ESMTP id BFM56847; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20050406002041.0244f418@mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com> X-Sender: twieland@mira-sjc5-4.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 From: Thomas Wieland Subject: Re: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Cc: eap@frascone.com, "'henry.haverinen@nokia.com'" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:41:14 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com)
Hi Madjid,

  I'm not an author but "other people", but maybe I can shed
some light on this.  Henry can always correct and expand.

There is nothing "wrong" with the identities used during full
authentication (i.e. either permanent identity, e.g. 1IMSI @realm,
or pseudonym identity).  The "problem", if you will, is that by
definition of a full authentication, these identities require the
use of 2 or 3 GSM triplets to authenticate. 

For one, this implies at least one round trip to a remote server,
i.e. the HLR/AuC where the triplets are generated.  This is
usually much slower than going through the calculations
necessary to iterate the keying material locally at the AAA
server.  It also means additional load on the HLR/AuC.

The second "bad" aspect is that each full EAP-SIM authentication uses
up 2 or 3 triplets.  The number of triplets that can be generated by each
SIM is usually limited (e.g. to 50,000) due to security concerns.  This
doesn't matter too much in a GSM mobile network as authentications
only use only one triplet and occur relatively infrequently compared to,
for example, public WLAN.  For EAP-SIM used in a PWLAN scenario,
not only do you use up 2 or 3 triplets per authentication, the authentications
also happen much more frequently.  For example every time every time
a PC gets turned on (or woken up), when a user roams between access
points etc.  You can see how you could be chewing through the available
triplets pretty fast and once you've reached the limit hard-wired into the
SIM, your SIM is dead and needs to be replaced. 

By using the fast re-auth mechanism, not only do you speed up
EAP-SIM authentications (hence "fast" :-), you also reduce the
load on the back-end server (AuC) and extend the life of your SIM.
In other words, "it's a good thing".

Regards,

  Thomas



At 10:05 05-04-05 -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote:

Hi,

 

I have a question regarding the EAP-SIM method for fast re-authentication and would appreciate it if the authors and other people respond. Why is a specific identity used for fast re-authentication? What is the problem with using the identities that were used during the full authentication? The initial identity that is sent in EAP-Response/ Identity should not have a problem, right?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Madjid Nakhjiri
_______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Apr 6 04:40:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA14960 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 04:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63302206DB; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 04:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02651206D6; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 04:40:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95726206D3 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 04:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mgw-x2.nokia.com (mgw-x2.nokia.com [131.228.20.22]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B62206D2 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 04:39:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esdks001.ntc.nokia.com (esdks001.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.120]) by mgw-x2.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j368d8F28952; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:39:08 +0300 (EET DST) X-Scanned: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:52:29 +0300 Nokia Message Protector V1.3.34 2004121512 - RELEASE Received: (from root@localhost) by esdks001.ntc.nokia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id j368qTAa004196; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:52:29 +0300 Received: from mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (172.21.143.97) by esdks001.ntc.nokia.com 00fj8YR0; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 11:52:26 EEST Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh001.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.28]) by mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j368YZU08380; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:34:35 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.86]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:34:29 +0300 Received: from esebe009.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.41]) by esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:34:28 +0300 Received: from trebe101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.22.124.61]) by esebe009.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:34:28 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C53A83.716629C4" Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Thread-Index: AcU6fJ2RVBbuEHGXT8G5bSpC9saQogABBsOA From: To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Apr 2005 08:34:28.0266 (UTC) FILETIME=[724C58A0:01C53A83] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:34:26 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53A83.716629C4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Madjid, Thomas, =20 Thomas already justified very well why there is a separate fast = re-authentication procedure. =20 The use of separate identities on fast re-authentication is just one way = to design the re-authentication procedure. Alternatively, we could have used the same pseudonyms during = fast re-authentication. There are some benefits in using separate identities. =20 Thanks to the separate identities, fast re-authentication and full = authentication can be implemented=20 separately, more modularly, at the server. When the server runs fast = re-authentication, it does not have=20 to update the information about the full authentication pseudonym. Fast = re-authentication=20 could even be distributed to a separate entity, a separate subsystem of = the EAP server that does not need to have any access to the triplets or to other "long-term" = state of the subscriber.=20 =20 A separate fast-reauthentication identity also indicates to the server = that the client wants to use fast re-authentication. Hence it is possible to "overload" the identity = with this indication and save a roundtrip in some cases. =20 When there are several AAA servers, pseudonyms should be decodable by = all the servers at the home network. They should also be decodable a long time after = they were delivered. Hence, the storing mechanism for pseudonyms is likely to be "expensive". = Fast re-authentication identities can be locally administered by a single server, and it does = not matter if they are not stored so "reliably". For example, some EAP-SIM server = implementations use cryptographically generated pseudonyms that contain the IMSI, but use short number IDs as = re-authentication identities. (However, 3GPP decided to use the same format for both types of = identities in release 6 specifications.) =20 Regards, Henry=20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of = ext Thomas Wieland Sent: 06 April, 2005 10:41 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: eap@frascone.com; Haverinen Henry (Nokia-ES/Jyvaskyla) Subject: Re: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Hi Madjid, I'm not an author but "other people", but maybe I can shed=20 some light on this. Henry can always correct and expand. There is nothing "wrong" with the identities used during full authentication (i.e. either permanent identity, e.g. 1IMSI @realm, or pseudonym identity). The "problem", if you will, is that by definition of a full authentication, these identities require the use of 2 or 3 GSM triplets to authenticate. =20 For one, this implies at least one round trip to a remote server,=20 i.e. the HLR/AuC where the triplets are generated. This is=20 usually much slower than going through the calculations=20 necessary to iterate the keying material locally at the AAA=20 server. It also means additional load on the HLR/AuC. The second "bad" aspect is that each full EAP-SIM authentication uses=20 up 2 or 3 triplets. The number of triplets that can be generated by = each=20 SIM is usually limited (e.g. to 50,000) due to security concerns. This=20 doesn't matter too much in a GSM mobile network as authentications only use only one triplet and occur relatively infrequently compared to, for example, public WLAN. For EAP-SIM used in a PWLAN scenario, not only do you use up 2 or 3 triplets per authentication, the = authentications=20 also happen much more frequently. For example every time every time=20 a PC gets turned on (or woken up), when a user roams between access points etc. You can see how you could be chewing through the available triplets pretty fast and once you've reached the limit hard-wired into = the SIM, your SIM is dead and needs to be replaced. =20 By using the fast re-auth mechanism, not only do you speed up=20 EAP-SIM authentications (hence "fast" :-), you also reduce the load on the back-end server (AuC) and extend the life of your SIM. In other words, "it's a good thing". Regards, Thomas At 10:05 05-04-05 -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: Hi,=20 =20 I have a question regarding the EAP-SIM method for fast = re-authentication and would appreciate it if the authors and other = people respond. Why is a specific identity used for fast = re-authentication? What is the problem with using the identities that = were used during the full authentication? The initial identity that is = sent in EAP-Response/ Identity should not have a problem, right? =20 Thanks in advance, =20 Madjid Nakhjiri _______________________________________________ eap mailing list = eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53A83.716629C4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Madjid, Thomas,
 
Thomas=20 already justified very well why there is a separate fast = re-authentication=20 procedure.
 
The=20 use of separate identities on fast re-authentication is just one way to=20 design the re-authentication
procedure. Alternatively, we could have used the same = pseudonyms during=20 fast re-authentication.
There=20 are some benefits in using separate identities.
 
Thanks=20 to the separate identities, fast re-authentication and full = authentication can=20 be implemented
separately, more modularly, at the server.=20 When the server runs fast re-authentication, it does not have=20
to=20 update the information about the full authentication = pseudonym. Fast=20 re-authentication
could=20 even be distributed to a separate entity, a separate = subsystem of=20 the EAP server that
does=20 not need to have any access to the triplets or to other "long-term" = state of the=20 subscriber.
 
A=20 separate fast-reauthentication identity also indicates to the server = that the=20 client wants to use
fast=20 re-authentication. Hence it is possible to "overload" the identity with = this=20 indication and
save a=20 roundtrip in some cases.
 
When=20 there are several AAA servers, pseudonyms should be decodable by all the = servers
at the=20 home network. They should also be decodable a long time after they were=20 delivered.
Hence,=20 the storing mechanism for pseudonyms is likely to be "expensive". Fast=20 re-authentication
identities can be locally administered by a single server, and = it does=20 not matter if they are
not=20 stored so "reliably". For example, some EAP-SIM server implementations = use=20 cryptographically generated
pseudonyms that contain the IMSI, but use short number IDs as=20 re-authentication identities.
(However, 3GPP decided to use the same format for both types of = identities in release 6 specifications.)
 
Regards,
Henry 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = eap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of ext Thomas=20 Wieland
Sent: 06 April, 2005 10:41
To: Nakhjiri=20 Madjid-MNAKHJI1
Cc: eap@frascone.com; Haverinen Henry=20 (Nokia-ES/Jyvaskyla)
Subject: Re: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth = identity


Hi Madjid,

  I'm not an = author=20 but "other people", but maybe I can shed
some light on this.  = Henry=20 can always correct and expand.

There is nothing "wrong" with = the=20 identities used during full
authentication (i.e. either permanent = identity,=20 e.g. 1IMSI @realm,
or pseudonym identity).  The "problem", if = you=20 will, is that by
definition of a full authentication, these = identities=20 require the
use of 2 or 3 GSM triplets to authenticate.  =

For=20 one, this implies at least one round trip to a remote server,
i.e. = the=20 HLR/AuC where the triplets are generated.  This is
usually = much=20 slower than going through the calculations
necessary to iterate = the keying=20 material locally at the AAA
server.  It also means additional = load on=20 the HLR/AuC.

The second "bad" aspect is that each full EAP-SIM=20 authentication uses
up 2 or 3 triplets.  The number of = triplets that=20 can be generated by each
SIM is usually limited (e.g. to 50,000) = due to=20 security concerns.  This
doesn't matter too much in a GSM = mobile=20 network as authentications
only use only one triplet and occur = relatively=20 infrequently compared to,
for example, public WLAN.  For = EAP-SIM used=20 in a PWLAN scenario,
not only do you use up 2 or 3 triplets per=20 authentication, the authentications
also happen much more=20 frequently.  For example every time every time
a PC gets = turned on=20 (or woken up), when a user roams between access
points etc.  = You can=20 see how you could be chewing through the available
triplets pretty = fast and=20 once you've reached the limit hard-wired into the
SIM, your SIM is = dead and=20 needs to be replaced. 

By using the fast re-auth = mechanism, not=20 only do you speed up
EAP-SIM authentications (hence "fast" :-), = you also=20 reduce the
load on the back-end server (AuC) and extend the life of = your=20 SIM.
In other words, "it's a good = thing".

Regards,

 =20 Thomas



At 10:05 05-04-05 -0500, Nakhjiri = Madjid-MNAKHJI1=20 wrote:

Hi,=20

 

I have a question regarding the EAP-SIM method for fast=20 re-authentication and would appreciate it if the authors and other = people=20 respond. Why is a specific identity used for fast re-authentication? = What is=20 the problem with using the identities that were used during the full = authentication? The initial identity that is sent in EAP-Response/ = Identity=20 should not have a problem, right?

 

Thanks in=20 advance,

 

Madjid=20 = Nakhjiri
_____________________________________________= __=20 eap mailing list eap@frascone.com=20 http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap = ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53A83.716629C4-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Apr 6 06:26:19 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA23731 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC46E206DC; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F60206DA; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:26:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41F3E20653 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B0E206DA for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DJ7iW-0009gL-E5; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:25:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j36AOxH00961; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:24:59 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: "Bakshi, Sanjay" Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 03:24:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > Issues that come to my mind are > a) MTU discovery > For the minimum MTU of 1020 specified in RFC3748 can be used EAP can't do MTU discovery, per se. Are you saying that a minimum MTU of 1020 is always available? > b) Channel Binding > Are there any EAP methods that implement this? Yes, there are methods that are capable of this. The EAP peer and server verify that the "authenticator" they see is offering the same information to each of them. For example: Authenticator MAC address as seen by peer = Called-Station-ID in Access-Request SSID as seen by peer = SSID in Access-Request NAS-Identifer as seen by peer = NAS-Identifier in Request > It is not clear to me how Channel Binding is implemented when pass- > thru authenticator is in use. This because the Channel (lower > layer) between peer and pass-thru authenticator is different from the > lower layer between pass-thru authenticator and AAA backend that execute > the EAP method. I'm not sure why this would affect Channel bindings. > Does the uplink BS perform any cryptographic operations on data or EAP > packets? Or does it just encapsulate/decapsulate packets? > > It just encapsulates/decapsulates EAP packets. However, > data from application sessions is encrypted. Presumably this occurs after the EAP conversation completes, no? So the EAP conversation itself is never encrypted, even in a re-authentication? >Where are cryptographic keys stored in this architecture? On the MSS? > on the BS? On both? How are the keys transported? How many parties > possess them? > > Main keys on MSS (peer) and BS (Authenticator) > MSK, AAA-Key as per eap-keying-draft The liaison letter from Roger Marks indicated that the AAA-Key was derived from the AMSK/EMSK via the "pre-emptive handoff" formula, rather than from the MSK. Is this coreect? > MSK, AAA-Key are transported as per eap-keying-draft Again, Roger's seemed to imply that the RADIUS pre-emptive keying extension was used within 802.16e. Is that right? > PMK, AK, MACs are derived by peer and authenticator independently > How are transient session keys derived? How are they bound to the > correct context? How are authorization attributes handled? Does this > ensure proper cryptographic binding? > > [<>] These are defined in 802.16 specs. If people are > interested in getting an update on that, I will be glad to provide > material for that. Yes, we'd like to understand whether the requirements relating to TSK freshness are being fulfilled. > How do the parties identify themselves within the IEEE 802.16e > exchanges? If the BS is not an authenticator, then the EAP peer cannot > be aware of its identity; that is, the BS must appear to be a port of > the MSS, and the EAP peer can only be aware of the MSS identity in the > layer below EAP. Is this how 802.16e works? > >> > [<>] Assuming I understood your question correctly. Upon > successful network entry (at PHY and MAC layer), MSS gets a connection > identifier that represent the connection to the BS and eap packet are > exchanged over this connection. So in my opinion for forwarding EAP > packets, BS does appear as a port to EAP-peer. If the BS appears as a port to the MSS, is the EAP peer aware of what MSS it is connecting to? This relates to whether the EAP peer and server are in sync with respect to the Key Scope (the context of the key that is being derived). > How does IEEE 802.16e negotiate the key lifetime of the MSK and TSKs? > Is this done explicitly? What meaning is ascribed to the RADIUS > Session-Time attribute? > > [<>] Lifetime of MSK (derived from the eap session) is expected > to be exchange by RADIUS Session-Time attribute. The Session-Time attribute represents the maximum time to re-authentication of a session-in-progress. It isn't clear that this is the right attribute to use to determine the lifetime of the AAA-Key in pre-authentication, for example. > There is no Security Association protocol defined for lifetime > management etc. of the AAA-key. Does 802.16e support pre-authentication? If so, how does the peer and authenticator know how long the AAA-Key lives after being derived? > IMO equivalent to TSKs, 802.16e has TEKs (Traffic Encryption > Key) but 802.16e's current key derivation of TEKs does not follow the > guidelines mentioned in 1.3.3 of eap-keying-06. TEKs are derived as > randoms by BS and send to MSS encrypted and signed by keys derived from > PMK(AAA-Key) The keying draft doesn't require a certain derivation for the TSKs, it merely requires that they be fresh. Derivation of TSKs via two nonce/counters (one for each side) means that freshness can be provided even if one party has a broken random number generator. Deriving a TSK from a Nonce provided by only one party (particularly if that party is an embedded device that may lack the required boot entropy) seems risky, no? In particular, one can no longer say that TSKs freshness is guaranteed if the EAP method generates a fresh AAA-Key and if the peer can generate Nonces/counters that are fresh (as one can do in 802.11i, for example). In existing usage, freshness can be provided even if the EAP server generates unfresh Nonces/counters since the EAP method includes nonces/counters from both sides. Similarly, if the method exported keys are fresh and the EAP peer generates a fresh nonce/counter then the authenticator nonce/counter need not be fresh for the freshness requirement to be met. > How are keys named in IEEE 802.16e? How do the parties synchronize > the key cache? Are the messages within the Secure Association protocol > >>authenticated? > [<>] 802.16e does not define anything analogous to Secure > Association protocol. Validity of AAA-Key in Authenticator and MSS is > assumed. There is a 3-way handshake to verify the liveliness of the > session key namely (AK) that is derived from AAA-key The 3-way handshake sounds like a Secure Association Protocol, as defined in the keying framework. For example, it appears that it provides for mutual authentication between the peer and authenticator (one of the Housley criteria), as well as potentially providing for key freshness. What other functions does the 3-way handshake provide? For example: * Secure confirmation of ciphersuites (another required property) * TSK lifetime determination (e.g. can the 3-way handshake be used for a TSK rekey by either side?) * Proper identification (e.g. are the parties identified, not merely their ports?) * Is the key properly bound to its context? This includes not only use of the appropriate identifiers in the 3-way handshake, but but also ability to verify channel bindings. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From giacobo_beal@huntconstructiongroup.com Wed Apr 6 06:31:38 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA24935; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:31:37 -0400 (EDT) From: giacobo_beal@huntconstructiongroup.com Message-Id: <200504061031.GAA24935@ietf.org> Received: from bl4-210-21.dsl.telepac.pt ([81.193.210.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DJ7xH-0000Ie-40; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:40:17 -0400 Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:22:20 -0500 To: dhcwg@ietf.org Subject: Fwd: Great news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hey, I'm Amanda. 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Remember, it's FREE of charge, http://www.terra.es/personal2/rod452/amanda/amanda1.html From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Apr 6 11:41:10 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27398 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551C0206FC; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E09CD206F4; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:41:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB82206F7 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtaout4.012.net.il (mtaout4.012.net.il [84.95.2.10]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D0C206F4 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:40:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([192.114.180.130]) by i_mtaout4.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) with ESMTPA id <0IEJ00DAR7NCD170@i_mtaout4.012.net.il> for eap@frascone.com; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 18:42:56 +0300 (IDT) From: Jeff Mandin Subject: RE: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes To: aboba@internaut.com, sanjay.bakshi@intel.com Cc: eap@frascone.com Message-id: <42541185.40309@streetwaves-networks.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_wmJw54aqWUv4iTAZpu2EAA)" X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 18:42:45 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_wmJw54aqWUv4iTAZpu2EAA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sanjay and Bernard hi, Just to clarify a few points - and let Sanjay respond to the rest: 1. MTU: 1020 bytes is always available (as EAP messages are sent on a connection with capability for fragmentation) 2. Channel Binding: 802.16e includes the BSId in the derivation of the "Authorization Key" (AK) from the PMK. I think that this constitutes an adequate channel binding. 3. Pre-emptive keying: 802.16e is only an air interface. It relies on pre-emptive keying without saying how it's to be done. But yes a RADIUS extension is an obvious possibility. Similarly, 16e only uses the AAA-Key that it receives and doesn't tell the AAA Server how to create it. 4. TSKs: Traffic Encryption Keys (as we call them) are transported from BS to MSS wrapped in a KEK that is derived from the AK (using AES Key Wrap). The TEK lifetime is specified explicitly by the BS and there is overlap in the lifetime of successive generations of TEK. This scheme was inherited from DOCSIS (why it has been retained is a different story). Additionally a TEK can expire prematurely by using up its 32bit Counter space. The context of a TEK is defined in a roundabout manner, but essentially there are potentially several sessions who are permitted to access a particular TEK. These sessions are identified by an ID that is carried in the 802.16 MAC header. The MAC header in turn is not protected by the Message Authentication Code, but is instead used in generated the CCM-mode initialization block. Bottom line is that the MSS must rely on the BS guaranteeing TEK freshness. The TEK context is dictated by the BS to MSS and mutually enforced (and the AAA-Server is not in the picture at all for TEKs). - Jeff --------------------------------------------------- > Issues that come to my mind are > a) MTU discovery > For the minimum MTU of 1020 specified in RFC3748 can be used EAP can't do MTU discovery, per se. Are you saying that a minimum MTU of 1020 is always available? > b) Channel Binding > Are there any EAP methods that implement this? Yes, there are methods that are capable of this. The EAP peer and server verify that the "authenticator" they see is offering the same information to each of them. For example: Authenticator MAC address as seen by peer = Called-Station-ID in Access-Request SSID as seen by peer = SSID in Access-Request NAS-Identifer as seen by peer = NAS-Identifier in Request > It is not clear to me how Channel Binding is implemented when pass- > thru authenticator is in use. This because the Channel (lower > layer) between peer and pass-thru authenticator is different from the > lower layer between pass-thru authenticator and AAA backend that execute > the EAP method. I'm not sure why this would affect Channel bindings. > Does the uplink BS perform any cryptographic operations on data or EAP > packets? Or does it just encapsulate/decapsulate packets? > > It just encapsulates/decapsulates EAP packets. However, > data from application sessions is encrypted. Presumably this occurs after the EAP conversation completes, no? So the EAP conversation itself is never encrypted, even in a re-authentication? >Where are cryptographic keys stored in this architecture? On the MSS? > on the BS? On both? How are the keys transported? How many parties > possess them? > > Main keys on MSS (peer) and BS (Authenticator) > MSK, AAA-Key as per eap-keying-draft The liaison letter from Roger Marks indicated that the AAA-Key was derived from the AMSK/EMSK via the "pre-emptive handoff" formula, rather than from the MSK. Is this coreect? > MSK, AAA-Key are transported as per eap-keying-draft Again, Roger's seemed to imply that the RADIUS pre-emptive keying extension was used within 802.16e. Is that right? > PMK, AK, MACs are derived by peer and authenticator independently > How are transient session keys derived? How are they bound to the > correct context? How are authorization attributes handled? Does this > ensure proper cryptographic binding? > > [<>] These are defined in 802.16 specs. If people are > interested in getting an update on that, I will be glad to provide > material for that. Yes, we'd like to understand whether the requirements relating to TSK freshness are being fulfilled. > How do the parties identify themselves within the IEEE 802.16e > exchanges? If the BS is not an authenticator, then the EAP peer cannot > be aware of its identity; that is, the BS must appear to be a port of > the MSS, and the EAP peer can only be aware of the MSS identity in the > layer below EAP. Is this how 802.16e works? > >> > [<>] Assuming I understood your question correctly. Upon > successful network entry (at PHY and MAC layer), MSS gets a connection > identifier that represent the connection to the BS and eap packet are > exchanged over this connection. So in my opinion for forwarding EAP > packets, BS does appear as a port to EAP-peer. If the BS appears as a port to the MSS, is the EAP peer aware of what MSS it is connecting to? This relates to whether the EAP peer and server are in sync with respect to the Key Scope (the context of the key that is being derived). > How does IEEE 802.16e negotiate the key lifetime of the MSK and TSKs? > Is this done explicitly? What meaning is ascribed to the RADIUS > Session-Time attribute? > > [<>] Lifetime of MSK (derived from the eap session) is expected > to be exchange by RADIUS Session-Time attribute. The Session-Time attribute represents the maximum time to re-authentication of a session-in-progress. It isn't clear that this is the right attribute to use to determine the lifetime of the AAA-Key in pre-authentication, for example. > There is no Security Association protocol defined for lifetime > management etc. of the AAA-key. Does 802.16e support pre-authentication? If so, how does the peer and authenticator know how long the AAA-Key lives after being derived? > IMO equivalent to TSKs, 802.16e has TEKs (Traffic Encryption > Key) but 802.16e's current key derivation of TEKs does not follow the > guidelines mentioned in 1.3.3 of eap-keying-06. TEKs are derived as > randoms by BS and send to MSS encrypted and signed by keys derived from > PMK(AAA-Key) The keying draft doesn't require a certain derivation for the TSKs, it merely requires that they be fresh. Derivation of TSKs via two nonce/counters (one for each side) means that freshness can be provided even if one party has a broken random number generator. Deriving a TSK from a Nonce provided by only one party (particularly if that party is an embedded device that may lack the required boot entropy) seems risky, no? In particular, one can no longer say that TSKs freshness is guaranteed if the EAP method generates a fresh AAA-Key and if the peer can generate Nonces/counters that are fresh (as one can do in 802.11i, for example). In existing usage, freshness can be provided even if the EAP server generates unfresh Nonces/counters since the EAP method includes nonces/counters from both sides. Similarly, if the method exported keys are fresh and the EAP peer generates a fresh nonce/counter then the authenticator nonce/counter need not be fresh for the freshness requirement to be met. > How are keys named in IEEE 802.16e? How do the parties synchronize > the key cache? Are the messages within the Secure Association protocol > >>authenticated? > [<>] 802.16e does not define anything analogous to Secure > Association protocol. Validity of AAA-Key in Authenticator and MSS is > assumed. There is a 3-way handshake to verify the liveliness of the > session key namely (AK) that is derived from AAA-key The 3-way handshake sounds like a Secure Association Protocol, as defined in the keying framework. For example, it appears that it provides for mutual authentication between the peer and authenticator (one of the Housley criteria), as well as potentially providing for key freshness. What other functions does the 3-way handshake provide? For example: * Secure confirmation of ciphersuites (another required property) * TSK lifetime determination (e.g. can the 3-way handshake be used for a TSK rekey by either side?) * Proper identification (e.g. are the parties identified, not merely their ports?) * Is the key properly bound to its context? This includes not only use of the appropriate identifiers in the 3-way handshake, but but also ability to verify channel bindings. - Show quoted text - --Boundary_(ID_wmJw54aqWUv4iTAZpu2EAA) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sanjay and Bernard hi,

Just to clarify a few points -  and let Sanjay respond to the rest:

1.  MTU: 1020 bytes is always available (as EAP messages are sent on a connection with capability for fragmentation)

2.  Channel Binding:  802.16e includes the BSId in the derivation of the "Authorization Key" (AK) from the PMK.  I think that this constitutes an adequate channel binding.

3.  Pre-emptive keying: 802.16e is only an air interface.  It relies on pre-emptive keying without saying how it's to be done.  But yes a RADIUS extension is an obvious possibility.   Similarly, 16e only uses the AAA-Key that it receives and doesn't tell the AAA Server how to create it. 

4. TSKs:  Traffic Encryption Keys (as we call them) are transported from BS to MSS wrapped in a KEK that is derived from the AK (using AES Key Wrap). The TEK lifetime is specified explicitly by the BS and there is overlap in the lifetime of successive generations of TEK.  This scheme was inherited from DOCSIS (why it has been retained is a different story).

Additionally a TEK can expire prematurely by using up its 32bit Counter space.

The context of a TEK is defined in a roundabout manner, but essentially there are potentially several sessions who are permitted to access a particular TEK.  These sessions are identified by an ID that is carried in the 802.16 MAC header.  The MAC header in turn is not protected by the Message Authentication Code, but is instead used in generated the CCM-mode initialization block.

Bottom line is that the MSS must rely on the BS guaranteeing TEK freshness.  The TEK context is dictated by the BS to MSS and mutually enforced (and the AAA-Server is not in the picture at all for TEKs).

- Jeff

---------------------------------------------------

> Issues that come to my mind are
>    a) MTU discovery
>       For the minimum MTU of 1020 specified in RFC3748 can be used

EAP can't do MTU discovery, per se.  Are you saying that a minimum MTU of
1020 is always available?

>    b) Channel Binding
>       Are there any EAP methods that implement this?

 Yes, there are methods that are capable of this.  The EAP peer and server
verify that the "authenticator" they see is offering the same information
to each of them.  For example:

Authenticator MAC address as seen by peer = Called-Station-ID in
                                           Access-Request
SSID as seen by peer                      = SSID in Access-Request
NAS-Identifer as seen by peer             = NAS-Identifier in Request

> It is not clear to me how Channel Binding is implemented when pass-
> thru authenticator is in use. This because the Channel (lower
> layer) between peer and pass-thru authenticator is different from the
> lower layer between pass-thru authenticator and AAA backend that execute
> the EAP method.

I'm not sure why this would affect Channel bindings.

> Does the uplink BS perform any cryptographic operations on data or EAP
> packets?  Or does it just encapsulate/decapsulate packets?
>
 > It just encapsulates/decapsulates EAP packets. However,
> data from application sessions is encrypted.

Presumably this occurs after the EAP conversation completes, no?  So the
EAP conversation itself is never encrypted, even in a re-authentication?

>Where are cryptographic keys stored in this architecture?  On the MSS?
> on the BS?  On both? How are the keys transported?  How many parties
> possess them?
>
> Main keys on MSS (peer) and BS (Authenticator)
>     MSK, AAA-Key as per eap-keying-draft

The liaison letter from Roger Marks indicated that the AAA-Key was derived
from the AMSK/EMSK via the "pre-emptive handoff" formula, rather than from
the MSK.  Is this coreect?

> MSK, AAA-Key are transported as per eap-keying-draft

Again, Roger's seemed to imply that the RADIUS pre-emptive keying
extension was used within 802.16e.  Is that right?

> PMK, AK, MACs are derived by peer and authenticator independently

> How are transient session keys derived?  How are they bound to the
> correct context?  How are authorization attributes handled?  Does this
> ensure proper cryptographic binding?
>
> [<<sbakshi>>] These are defined in 802.16 specs. If people are
> interested in getting an update on that, I will be glad to provide
> material for that.

Yes, we'd like to understand whether the requirements relating to TSK
freshness are being fulfilled.

> How do the parties identify themselves within the IEEE 802.16e
> exchanges? If the BS is not an authenticator, then the EAP peer cannot
> be aware of its identity;  that is, the BS must appear to be a port of
> the MSS, and the EAP peer can only be aware of the MSS identity in the
> layer below EAP. Is this how 802.16e works?
> >>
> [<<sbakshi>>] Assuming I understood your question correctly. Upon
> successful network entry (at PHY and MAC layer), MSS gets a connection
> identifier that represent the connection to the BS and eap packet are
> exchanged over this connection. So in my opinion for forwarding EAP
> packets, BS does appear as a port to EAP-peer.

 If the BS appears as a port to the MSS, is the EAP peer aware of what MSS
it is connecting to?  This relates to whether the EAP peer and server are
in sync with respect to the Key Scope (the context of the key that is
being derived).

> How does IEEE 802.16e negotiate the key lifetime of the MSK and TSKs?
> Is this done explicitly?  What meaning is ascribed to the RADIUS
> Session-Time attribute?
>
> [<<sbakshi>>] Lifetime of MSK (derived from the eap session) is expected
> to be exchange by RADIUS Session-Time attribute.

The Session-Time attribute represents the maximum time to
re-authentication of a session-in-progress.  It isn't clear that this is
the right attribute to use to determine the lifetime of the AAA-Key in
pre-authentication, for example.

> There is no Security Association protocol defined for lifetime
> management etc. of the AAA-key.

Does 802.16e support pre-authentication?  If so, how does the peer and
authenticator know how long the AAA-Key lives after being derived?

> IMO equivalent to TSKs, 802.16e has TEKs (Traffic Encryption
> Key) but 802.16e's current key derivation of TEKs does not follow the
> guidelines mentioned in 1.3.3 of eap-keying-06. TEKs are derived as
> randoms by BS and send to MSS encrypted and signed by keys derived from
> PMK(AAA-Key)

The keying draft doesn't require a certain derivation for the TSKs, it
merely requires that they be fresh.  Derivation of TSKs via two
nonce/counters (one for each side) means that freshness can be provided
even if one party has a broken random number generator.  Deriving a TSK
from a Nonce provided by only one party (particularly if that party is an
embedded device that may lack the required boot entropy) seems risky, no?

In particular, one can no longer say that TSKs freshness is guaranteed if
the EAP method generates a fresh AAA-Key and if the peer can generate
Nonces/counters that are fresh (as one can do in 802.11i, for example).
In existing usage, freshness can be provided even if the EAP server
generates unfresh Nonces/counters since the EAP method includes
nonces/counters from both sides.  Similarly, if the method exported keys
are fresh and the EAP peer generates a fresh nonce/counter then the
authenticator nonce/counter need not be fresh for the freshness
requirement to be met.

> How are keys named in IEEE 802.16e?  How do the parties synchronize
> the key cache?  Are the messages within the Secure Association protocol
> >>authenticated?
> [<<sbakshi>>] 802.16e does not define anything analogous to Secure
> Association protocol. Validity of AAA-Key in Authenticator and MSS is
> assumed. There is a 3-way handshake to verify the liveliness of the
> session key namely (AK) that is derived from AAA-key

The 3-way handshake sounds like a Secure Association Protocol, as defined
in the keying framework.  For example, it appears that it provides for
mutual authentication between the peer and authenticator (one of the
Housley criteria), as well as potentially providing for key freshness.

What other functions does the 3-way handshake provide?  For example:

* Secure confirmation of ciphersuites (another required property)
* TSK lifetime determination (e.g. can the 3-way handshake be used for
 a TSK rekey by either side?)
* Proper identification (e.g. are the parties identified, not merely
 their ports?)
* Is the key properly bound to its context?  This includes not only
 use of the appropriate identifiers in the 3-way handshake, but
 but also ability to verify channel bindings.
- Show quoted text -

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From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Apr 6 15:20:11 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18814 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BED9420707; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F532069F; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:20:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBFC20693 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2132025A for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from il06exr03.mot.com (il06exr03.mot.com [129.188.137.133]) by motgate8.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate8) with ESMTP id j36JLQ24013829 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:21:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from il27exm03.cig.mot.com (il27exm03.cig.mot.com [10.17.193.4]) by il06exr03.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j36JKxnD003996 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:21:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: by il27exm03.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:19:04 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 To: "'Thomas Wieland'" Cc: eap@frascone.com, henry.haverinen@nokia.com, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C53ADD.7DC1DF9A" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:19:02 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53ADD.7DC1DF9A Content-Type: text/plain Hi Thomas, Thanks for being among helpful "other people" :-) Ok, I am not sure how fast re-authentication protects the use identity, so I can understand if no protection is provided, that would be one way to protect the permanent identities such as IMSI. But what I don't understand is how every use of IMSI means use of new triplets? Sure EAP-SIM draft says that it does not allow re-use of triplets (I guess for full authentication), but from what I understand the fast re-authentication does not use any triplets, so the question of "re-use versus using fresh" should be moot. I do have another issue with the fast re-auth. Most of the sequence charts only show a peer and an authenticator. Does this mean the authenticator is the NAS or that it is the EAP server? I am trying to understand how this fits into a 3 party EAP authentication model and whether the fast re-authentication can apply to handovers or it is just re-authentication to the same authenticator? Regards, Madjid -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Wieland [mailto:twieland@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:41 AM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: eap@frascone.com; henry.haverinen@nokia.com Subject: Re: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Hi Madjid, I'm not an author but "other people", but maybe I can shed some light on this. Henry can always correct and expand. There is nothing "wrong" with the identities used during full authentication (i.e. either permanent identity, e.g. 1IMSI @realm, or pseudonym identity). The "problem", if you will, is that by definition of a full authentication, these identities require the use of 2 or 3 GSM triplets to authenticate. For one, this implies at least one round trip to a remote server, i.e. the HLR/AuC where the triplets are generated. This is usually much slower than going through the calculations necessary to iterate the keying material locally at the AAA server. It also means additional load on the HLR/AuC. The second "bad" aspect is that each full EAP-SIM authentication uses up 2 or 3 triplets. The number of triplets that can be generated by each SIM is usually limited (e.g. to 50,000) due to security concerns. This doesn't matter too much in a GSM mobile network as authentications only use only one triplet and occur relatively infrequently compared to, for example, public WLAN. For EAP-SIM used in a PWLAN scenario, not only do you use up 2 or 3 triplets per authentication, the authentications also happen much more frequently. For example every time every time a PC gets turned on (or woken up), when a user roams between access points etc. You can see how you could be chewing through the available triplets pretty fast and once you've reached the limit hard-wired into the SIM, your SIM is dead and needs to be replaced. By using the fast re-auth mechanism, not only do you speed up EAP-SIM authentications (hence "fast" :-), you also reduce the load on the back-end server (AuC) and extend the life of your SIM. In other words, "it's a good thing". Regards, Thomas At 10:05 05-04-05 -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: Hi, I have a question regarding the EAP-SIM method for fast re-authentication and would appreciate it if the authors and other people respond. Why is a specific identity used for fast re-authentication? What is the problem with using the identities that were used during the full authentication? The initial identity that is sent in EAP-Response/ Identity should not have a problem, right? 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motgate8.mot.com (motgate8.mot.com [129.188.136.8]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8CF20693 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate8.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate8) with ESMTP id j36Jr524027074 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:53:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from il27exm03.cig.mot.com (il27exm03.cig.mot.com [10.17.193.4]) by il06exr01.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j36Jqqbs003485 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:52:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: by il27exm03.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:50:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 To: "'henry.haverinen@nokia.com'" , twieland@cisco.com Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C53AE1.E96122E8" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:50:40 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53AE1.E96122E8 Content-Type: text/plain Hi Henry, Thank you for sending a quick response. I don't have an issue with having a fast re-authentication method that is more lightweight than the full authentication as long as the security is not compromised. One thing I am not clear about is whether the procedure is intended for handovers or not. But that is a different issue. The point I was trying to understand is not why fast re-authentication is needed, it is why a different identity is being used. Please see inline. Regards, Madjid -----Original Message----- From: henry.haverinen@nokia.com [mailto:henry.haverinen@nokia.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 3:34 AM To: twieland@cisco.com; Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Hi Madjid, Thomas, Thomas already justified very well why there is a separate fast re-authentication procedure. The use of separate identities on fast re-authentication is just one way to design the re-authentication procedure. Alternatively, we could have used the same pseudonyms during fast re-authentication. There are some benefits in using separate identities. Thanks to the separate identities, fast re-authentication and full authentication can be implemented separately, more modularly, at the server. Madjid>>Can't both modules use the same identity for the peer? I am guessing for fast re-auth you need to locate the MK, can't you do it with the same identity as the one you used for full authentication? When the server runs fast re-authentication, it does not have to update the information about the full authentication pseudonym. Fast re-authentication could even be distributed to a separate entity, a separate subsystem of the EAP server that does not need to have any access to the triplets or to other "long-term" state of the subscriber. Madjid>> why do you need the triplets for fast re-authentication. Isn't the user id and MK enough? A separate fast-reauthentication identity also indicates to the server that the client wants to use fast re-authentication. Hence it is possible to "overload" the identity with this indication and save a roundtrip in some cases. Madjid>>Couldn't this be done with the same identity by some sort of flag or subtype? When there are several AAA servers, pseudonyms should be decodable by all the servers at the home network. They should also be decodable a long time after they were delivered. Hence, the storing mechanism for pseudonyms is likely to be "expensive". Fast re-authentication identities can be locally administered by a single server, and it does not matter if they are not stored so "reliably". Madjid>> I guess it depends on how fast re-auth ID is created/ communicated to the local server. I am guessing fast re-auth ID is generated after a full authentication with a perm. ID is performed and the master key is sent from the central server to the local server. If the MK is sent to the local server processing the fast re-auth, why not send the perm. ID with it? Unless you want to protect the perm. ID from the local server? For example, some EAP-SIM server implementations use cryptographically generated pseudonyms that contain the IMSI, but use short number IDs as re-authentication identities. (However, 3GPP decided to use the same format for both types of identities in release 6 specifications.) Regards, Henry -----Original Message----- From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of ext Thomas Wieland Sent: 06 April, 2005 10:41 To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: eap@frascone.com; Haverinen Henry (Nokia-ES/Jyvaskyla) Subject: Re: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Hi Madjid, I'm not an author but "other people", but maybe I can shed some light on this. Henry can always correct and expand. There is nothing "wrong" with the identities used during full authentication (i.e. either permanent identity, e.g. 1IMSI @realm, or pseudonym identity). The "problem", if you will, is that by definition of a full authentication, these identities require the use of 2 or 3 GSM triplets to authenticate. For one, this implies at least one round trip to a remote server, i.e. the HLR/AuC where the triplets are generated. This is usually much slower than going through the calculations necessary to iterate the keying material locally at the AAA server. It also means additional load on the HLR/AuC. The second "bad" aspect is that each full EAP-SIM authentication uses up 2 or 3 triplets. The number of triplets that can be generated by each SIM is usually limited (e.g. to 50,000) due to security concerns. This doesn't matter too much in a GSM mobile network as authentications only use only one triplet and occur relatively infrequently compared to, for example, public WLAN. For EAP-SIM used in a PWLAN scenario, not only do you use up 2 or 3 triplets per authentication, the authentications also happen much more frequently. For example every time every time a PC gets turned on (or woken up), when a user roams between access points etc. You can see how you could be chewing through the available triplets pretty fast and once you've reached the limit hard-wired into the SIM, your SIM is dead and needs to be replaced. By using the fast re-auth mechanism, not only do you speed up EAP-SIM authentications (hence "fast" :-), you also reduce the load on the back-end server (AuC) and extend the life of your SIM. In other words, "it's a good thing". Regards, Thomas At 10:05 05-04-05 -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: Hi, I have a question regarding the EAP-SIM method for fast re-authentication and would appreciate it if the authors and other people respond. Why is a specific identity used for fast re-authentication? What is the problem with using the identities that were used during the full authentication? The initial identity that is sent in EAP-Response/ Identity should not have a problem, right? Thanks in advance, Madjid Nakhjiri _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53AE1.E96122E8 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9uYWwv L0VOIj4NCjxodG1sPg0KDQo8aGVhZD4NCjxNRVRBIEhUVFAtRVFVSVY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIg Q09OVEVOVD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXVzLWFzY2lpIj4NCg0KDQo8bWV0YSBuYW1lPUdl bmVyYXRvciBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxMCAoZmlsdGVyZWQpIj4NCg0KPHN0eWxl Pg0KPCEtLQ0KIC8qIEZvbnQgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCiBAZm9udC1mYWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFt aWx5OlRhaG9tYTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDExIDYgNCAzIDUgNCA0IDIgNDt9DQogLyogU3R5bGUg RGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCiBwLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgbGkuTXNvTm9ybWFsLCBkaXYuTXNvTm9ybWFs DQoJe21hcmdpbjowaW47DQoJbWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTouMDAwMXB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4w cHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IlRpbWVzIE5ldyBSb21hbiI7fQ0KYTpsaW5rLCBzcGFuLk1zb0h5 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------_=_NextPart_001_01C53AE1.E96122E8-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Apr 6 17:44:10 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07578 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712FC20711; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:44:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C7120386; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:44:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC3E20386 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80D2202C6 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DJIJ7-0008A2-OX; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:43:29 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j36LhRb10957; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:43:28 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: Alper Yegin Cc: "'Bakshi, Sanjay'" , eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: clarification.... (was RE: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes) In-Reply-To: <000001c53af0$330e1490$6601a8c0@sisa.samsung.com> Message-ID: References: <000001c53af0$330e1490$6601a8c0@sisa.samsung.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:43:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > Bernard, Sanjay, > > There are two separate discussions that are getting tangled, I'm afraid. > > One is, how IEEE 802.16e uses EAP as defined in the current IEEE > specifications. Many of Bernard's questions are targeting understanding > that. > > Sanjay's original question is about extending the IEEE 802.16e's EAP > usage in a particular way (EAP-Proxy model). > > While in order to discuss the latter, understanding the former is a > must. But I have a feeling that things are getting blurred... Separating > the threads might help... > > If it is only me getting confused, never mind. > > Alper OK. I was getting confused, too :) We have recently received a liaison letter from Roger Marks, chair of 802.16, requesting review of 802.16e compatibility with RFC 3748 and the Key Management Framework. So that request was motivating some of my questions. It would appear that Sanjay's model is somewhat different from the 802.16e model described in the liaison letter. So yes, we should keep these proposals separate. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Wed Apr 6 17:51:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08243 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652F420716; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4802070E; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:51:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC7A20711 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr004.jf.intel.com (fmr19.intel.com [134.134.136.18]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E184B2070A for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (orsfmr101.jf.intel.com [10.7.209.17]) by orsfmr004.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-outer.mc,v 1.1 2004/09/17 17:50:56 root Exp $) with ESMTP id j36Lo9FU009206; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:50:09 GMT Received: from orsmsxvs041.jf.intel.com (orsmsxvs041.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.54]) by orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-inner.mc,v 1.2 2004/09/17 18:05:01 root Exp $) with SMTP id j36LnMIs015950; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:50:09 GMT Received: from orsmsx331.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.56]) by orsmsxvs041.jf.intel.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.7.47) with SMTP id M2005040614500625393 ; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 14:50:06 -0700 Received: from orsmsx402.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.208]) by orsmsx331.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:50:06 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: clarification.... (was RE: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes) Message-ID: Thread-Topic: clarification.... (was RE: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes) thread-index: AcU68a+NMT9RHa7JRvyqacWObtn4LAAACzIA From: "Bakshi, Sanjay" To: "Bernard Aboba" , "Alper Yegin" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Apr 2005 21:50:06.0627 (UTC) FILETIME=[98942730:01C53AF2] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:50:05 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bernard, I will start a separate thread based on response I got from you so that we can separate out 802.16e specific details. -- sanjay7 -----Original Message----- From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:43 PM To: Alper Yegin Cc: Bakshi, Sanjay; eap@frascone.com Subject: Re: clarification.... (was RE: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes) > Bernard, Sanjay, > > There are two separate discussions that are getting tangled, I'm afraid. > > One is, how IEEE 802.16e uses EAP as defined in the current IEEE > specifications. Many of Bernard's questions are targeting understanding > that. > > Sanjay's original question is about extending the IEEE 802.16e's EAP > usage in a particular way (EAP-Proxy model). > > While in order to discuss the latter, understanding the former is a > must. But I have a feeling that things are getting blurred... Separating > the threads might help... > > If it is only me getting confused, never mind. > > Alper OK. I was getting confused, too :) We have recently received a liaison letter from Roger Marks, chair of 802.16, requesting review of 802.16e compatibility with RFC 3748 and the Key Management Framework. So that request was motivating some of my questions. It would appear that Sanjay's model is somewhat different from the 802.16e model described in the liaison letter. So yes, we should keep these proposals separate. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From info@avanoslular.com Thu Apr 7 00:16:46 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA12034; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from server008.webpack.hosteurope.de ([80.237.130.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DJOaD-00086K-QZ; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 00:25:35 -0400 Received: by server008.webpack.hosteurope.de running Exim 4.34 using local from nobody id 1DJOR5-0006t6-VY; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 06:16:07 +0200 Subject: Hello(From Sister Princess). 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MTU: 1020 bytes is always available (as EAP messages are sent on a > connection with capability for fragmentation) > > 2. Channel Binding: 802.16e includes the BSId in the derivation of the > "Authorization Key" (AK) from the PMK. I think that this constitutes an > adequate channel binding. Binding requires that all parties have the same understanding of who the key is being derived with and for what purpose it is being used. For EAP, the "entities" that possess the PMK are the EAP peer, server and authenticator. Channel binding is a way for the peer to verify that the authenticator has provided it with the same parameters as it provided to the EAP server. As I understand it, the BSId identifies a port on the authenticator, not the authenticator itself, correct? > 3. Pre-emptive keying: 802.16e is only an air interface. It relies on > pre-emptive keying without saying how it's to be done. But yes a RADIUS > extension is an obvious possibility. Similarly, 16e only uses the > AAA-Key that it receives and doesn't tell the AAA Server how to create it. The pre-emptive keying formula that was in -05 has been removed from the EAP Key Management framework document to enable a more complete analysis. There are a number of problems with pre-emptive keying that have been raised by Jesse Walker and others. For example, in pre-emptive keying the peer does not know where the server has sent the keys and this can result in key cache misses until the server's view of the world synchronizes with the peer. Also, pre-emptive keying does not provide for mutual authentication between the EAP peer and server via the authenticator that will be used. This raises the question about whether the pre-emptive key is properly bound. From a AAA perspective, pre-emptive keying faces some deployment obstacles. RFC 3576 has not yet been widely adopted, and requires changes to RADIUS proxies and possibly firewall configurations. The RADIUS extension document describing pre-emptive keying was created for the IRTF, not the IETF, so it doesn't even have the status of an IETF individual submission, let alone a WG work item. Given that 802.16e is in Sponsor ballot, it would be very hard to see how a dependency that immature could be resolved in time. > 4. TSKs: Traffic Encryption Keys (as we call them) are transported from > BS to MSS wrapped in a KEK that is derived from the AK (using AES Key > Wrap). The TEK lifetime is specified explicitly by the BS and there is > overlap in the lifetime of successive generations of TEK. This scheme > was inherited from DOCSIS (why it has been retained is a different story). > > Additionally a TEK can expire prematurely by using up its 32bit Counter > space. > > The context of a TEK is defined in a roundabout manner, but essentially > there are potentially several sessions who are permitted to access a > particular TEK. These sessions are identified by an ID that is carried > in the 802.16 MAC header. The MAC header in turn is not protected by > the Message Authentication Code, but is instead used in generated the > CCM-mode initialization block. > > Bottom line is that the MSS must rely on the BS guaranteeing TEK > freshness. The TEK context is dictated by the BS to MSS and mutually > enforced (and the AAA-Server is not in the picture at all for TEKs). Right. It sounds like 802.16e handles the key lifetime of transient session keys. 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----jZRPjq4mEtNerESBMHzD-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Thu Apr 7 05:09:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA29714 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 05:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23DC2038D; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 05:09:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1364620377; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 05:09:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA8F2037A for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 05:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D20C20368 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 05:08:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esdks003.ntc.nokia.com (esdks003.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.158]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j3798EG08926; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:08:14 +0300 (EET DST) X-Scanned: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:04:19 +0300 Nokia Message Protector V1.3.34 2004121512 - RELEASE Received: (from root@localhost) by esdks003.ntc.nokia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id j3794IhV005426; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:04:19 +0300 Received: from mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (172.21.143.97) by esdks003.ntc.nokia.com 00lTl8CG; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:03:18 EEST Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh001.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.28]) by mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j3793IU12186; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:03:18 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.56]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:02:20 +0300 Received: from trebe101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.22.124.61]) by esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:02:21 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C53B50.9A3932CA" Subject: RE: [eap] EAP SIM and AKA identities. Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] EAP SIM and AKA identities. Thread-Index: AcU6d7pQR+hVUTi1Tp2viZEBsi0l6AA1g3Fw From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Apr 2005 09:02:21.0985 (UTC) FILETIME=[82535910:01C53B50] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:03:02 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53B50.9A3932CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Hello Suresh, =20 The term "identity" refers to an identity string that includes the realm portion in environments where a realm is needed. "Username" refers to the username portion of the identity. Explanations for the terms=20 "permanent identity" and "permanent username" are included in the terms = section of the documents.=20 =20 The leading digit (0 or 1) of the permanent username would be useful as = a hint only when processing=20 an EAP-Response/Identity packet. The peer uses AT_IDENTITY only in = response to an EAP-SIM or EAP-AKA packet, so the EAP method has already been selected in this phase. Hence the server does not need to use the leading digit of the username as an = EAP method selection hint anymore. Nevertheless, if the peer composes the permanent username = from the IMSI, as specified in the drafts, then the peer will still include = the leading digit. =20 The format of AT_IDENTITY is specified in section 9.8 of EAP-SIM and = section 9.5 of EAP-AKA. These sections say that the same identity format is used = in the AT_IDENTITY attribute and the EAP-Response/Identity packet, with the exception that the peer MUST NOT decorate the identity it includes in AT_IDENTITY. = The identity format is=20 specified in section 4.2.1 of EAP-SIM and 4.1.1 of EAP-AKA. =20 The realm portion is not considered as decoration. In other words, If = the identity includes a realm=20 portion in the present enviroment, then the peer includes the realm also = in the AT_IDENTITY attribute. =20 Best regards, Henry =20 -----Original Message----- From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of = ext Suresh Sent: 06 April, 2005 10:13 To: eap@frascone.com Subject: [eap] EAP SIM and AKA identities. Hi I have a small clarification in the identities and user names used in = the EAP-SIM and AKA implementations. When ever a client needs to send fill in the AT_IDENTITY attribute, it = has to fill in the complete identity, and the identity may or may not = have a realm portion. The format of the permanent user name is 0|IMSI and 1|IMSI for the AKA = and SIM respectively.=20 It is also given that=20 The EAP server MAY use the leading "1" as a hint to try EAP-SIM as the first authentication method during method negotiation, rather than for example EAP/AKA. The EAP-SIM server MAY propose EAP-SIM even if the leading character was not "1". for EAP-AKA.=20 I could not understand how user name is sent to the EAP-Server, in = actual, complete identity is sent in the AT_IDENTITY attribute and not = just the user name. regards, Suresh = =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53B50.9A3932CA Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
Hello=20 Suresh,
 
The=20 term "identity" refers to an identity string that includes the=20 realm
portion in environments where a realm is = needed.=20 "Username" refers to
the=20 username portion of the identity. Explanations for the terms=20
"permanent identity" and "permanent username" = are=20 included in the terms = section
of the=20 documents.
 
The leading digit (0 or 1) of the permanent = username=20 would be useful as a hint only when processing =
an EAP-Response/Identity packet.=20 The peer uses AT_IDENTITY only in response to = an=20 EAP-SIM or EAP-AKA
packet, so the EAP method has already been = selected in=20 this phase. Hence
the=20 server does not need to use the leading digit of the username as an EAP = method=20 selection
hint=20 anymore. Nevertheless, if the peer composes the permanent username=20 from
the=20 IMSI, as specified in the drafts, then the peer will still include=20 the leading digit.
 
The=20 format of AT_IDENTITY is specified in section 9.8 of EAP-SIM and=20 section
9.5 of=20 EAP-AKA. These sections say that the same identity format is used in the = AT_IDENTITY
attribute and the EAP-Response/Identity = packet, with=20 the exception
that=20 the peer MUST NOT decorate the identity it includes in AT_IDENTITY.=20 The identity format is
specified in section 4.2.1 of EAP-SIM = and  4.1.1=20 of EAP-AKA.
 
The=20 realm portion is not considered as decoration. In other = words, If the=20 identity includes a realm
portion in the present enviroment, then the = peer=20 includes the realm also in the AT_IDENTITY = attribute.
 
Best=20 regards,
Henry
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = eap-admin@frascone.com=20 [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of ext = Suresh
Sent:=20 06 April, 2005 10:13
To: eap@frascone.com
Subject: = [eap]=20 EAP SIM and AKA identities.


Hi
I have=20 a small clarification in the identities and user names used in the = EAP-SIM=20 and AKA implementations.
When ever a client needs to send fill in = the=20 AT_IDENTITY attribute, it has to fill in the complete identity, and = the=20 identity may or may not have a realm portion.
The format of the = permanent=20 user name is 0|IMSI and 1|IMSI for the AKA and SIM respectively. =
It is=20 also given that

   The=20 EAP server MAY use the leading "1" as a hint to try EAP-SIM=20 as
   the first authentication method during method=20 negotiation, rather
   than for example EAP/AKA.  = The=20 EAP-SIM server MAY propose EAP-SIM
   even if the = leading=20 character was not "1".

for EAP-AKA.

I could not = understand=20 how user name is sent to the EAP-Server, in actual, complete = identity is=20 sent in the AT_IDENTITY attribute and not just the user=20 = name.

regards,
Suresh
      &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =          =20

------_=_NextPart_001_01C53B50.9A3932CA-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From nykxhlhbkrp@quantumcars.com Thu Apr 7 08:38:53 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA16804; Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [222.102.111.145] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DJWQ9-0000EA-AU; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 08:47:45 -0400 Received: from homemade.com (EHLO mta333.maxwell.com) by mta184.mail.dcn.elysian.com with SMTP; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:40:16 -0100 Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 08:38:16 -0500 From: "Ginger Jewell" Message-Id: <3.33333.3132363035453934.3@arose.com> To: eap-archive@ietf.org Subject: esteem blossom begetting crowbait hedge watery Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00IW_07I2483QC_08G.192F92G0" X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: f6ef73100908d67495ce675c3fe8f472 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00IW_07I2483QC_08G.192F92G0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00IR_09X1547RJ_09E.363P21R0" ------=_NextPart_000_00IR_09X1547RJ_09E.363P21R0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Get a capable html e-mailer ------=_NextPart_000_00IR_09X1547RJ_09E.363P21R0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

3D""

 

 

"Actually, it was a relief because I don't have to wonder," said Mark Luns= ford, Jessica's father. Investigators awaited results of a test on evidenc= e from the home where Couey was staying, and officials have informed the g= irl's family about the details surrounding Jessica's death.Citrus County S= heriff Jeff Dawsy said that investigators are meeting with state attorneys= later Monday and that suspect John Evander Couey would see an array of ch= arges related to the case."We may never have a true timeline," he said. "T= here were two people that knew -- Jessica, who's gone, and this individual= Couey, and because of his state with drugs, he was all over the place."Ot= unbayeva said the opposition would guarantee the security of Akayev and ot= her government officials if they go, "like it was in Georgia and Ukraine."= "We may never have a true timeline," he said. "There were two people that = knew -- Jessica, who's gone, and this individual Couey, and because of his= state with drugs, he was all over the place.""We may never have a true ti= meline," he said. "There were two people that knew -- Jessica, who's gone,= and this individual Couey, and because of his state with drugs, he was al= l over the place."Another opposition member, Anvar Artykov, told the crowd= that "Power in Osh has been taken over by people! ... I congratulate you = on our victory and urge you to maintain order."But another opposition lead= er, Kurmanbek Bakiyev, said talks would be possible if Akayev attended.In = Osh, Kyrgyzstan's second-largest city, about 1,000 protesters -- armed wit= h clubs and flammable liquid and chanting "Akayev go!" -- took control of = the governor's building. Activists first stormed the building Friday, were= ousted by security forces Saturday but retook it Monday.Akayev was long r= egarded as the most reform-minded leader in ex-Soviet Central Asia and the= country won praise for its comparative openness."There was no forced entr= y. The residence was unsecured," Dawsy said of the home where Jessica live= d with her grandparents and father.Citrus County Sheriff Jeff Dawsy said t= hat investigators are meeting with state attorneys later Monday and that s= uspect John Evander Couey would see an array of charges related to the cas= e.Akayev has led this mainly Muslim nation for 15 years.But another opposi= tion leader, Kurmanbek Bakiyev, said talks would be possible if Akayev att= ended."We may never have a true timeline," he said. "There were two people= that knew -- Jessica, who's gone, and this individual Couey, and because = of his state with drugs, he was all over the place."Protesters in the sout= hern town of Toktogul held captive for a third day a district governor and= a chief district prosecutor, both of whom are accused of colluding with A= kayev's government, police said.The sheriff and other sources said the sus= pect entered the house during the night of February 23, made his way to Je= ssica's room, covered her mouth, order her to remain quiet and forced her = to leave.

 

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major-inner.mc,v 1.2 2004/09/17 18:05:01 root Exp $) with SMTP id j381rVRa025440; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 01:53:31 GMT Received: from orsmsx331.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.56]) by orsmsxvs040.jf.intel.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.7.47) with SMTP id M2005040718533123000 ; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 18:53:31 -0700 Received: from orsmsx402.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.208]) by orsmsx331.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:53:31 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes thread-index: AcU6kuZXPrt11VEnQu2fOuj/A1z3RgAuyt2w From: "Bakshi, Sanjay" To: "Bernard Aboba" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Apr 2005 01:53:31.0422 (UTC) FILETIME=[C420C3E0:01C53BDD] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:53:29 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bernard, Starting a new thread as promised... Please see my comments below. Thanks, sanjay > Issues that come to my mind are > a) MTU discovery > For the minimum MTU of 1020 specified in RFC3748 can be used EAP can't do MTU discovery, per se. Are you saying that a minimum MTU of 1020 is always available? <> Per RFC MTU of 1020 is the minimum that should be supported > b) Channel Binding > Are there any EAP methods that implement this? Yes, there are methods that are capable of this. The EAP peer and server verify that the "authenticator" they see is offering the same information to each of them. For example: Authenticator MAC address as seen by peer =3D Called-Station-ID in Access-Request SSID as seen by peer =3D SSID in Access-Request NAS-Identifer as seen by peer =3D NAS-Identifier in Request <> So is it fair to say that channel binding is a way to verify the identity of the authenticator. It seems it directly does not really have to do anything with the lower layer used to communicate between peer and authenticator. Lower layer just happens to have some attributes such Authenticator MAC that help identify the Authenticator? Also it seems there is an implicit assumption that for channel binding to work as per rfc3748, either the peer needs to know the identity of the authenticator up front or an authenticator should be able to advertise its identity to securely somehow? Also can you give me examples of EAP-methods that support channel binding? > It is not clear to me how Channel Binding is implemented when pass-=20 > thru authenticator is in use. This because the Channel (lower > layer) between peer and pass-thru authenticator is different from the=20 > lower layer between pass-thru authenticator and AAA backend that=20 > execute the EAP method. 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Regarding channel binding: "pure" 802.16e authentication is done entirely inside the MAC layer (fundamentally different from 802.1x) and all credentials belong to a single Interface/BSId. 2. Consequently, for pure 802.16e the Authenticator as well is always identified with a particular BSId/Interface. Consequently a channel-binding EAP method could use the BSId to enable both the AAA Server and peer to affirm the endpoints for the authentication and key scope. (EAP-TTLS has optional support for channel binding BTW). So basic 16e can support channel binding methods easily. 3. The "Split Authenticator" proposal does seem to introduce issues however .... because in that case the authentication is being done simultaneously - in effect - for all BSes using the same centralized "back-half" Authenticator. I think that's what Sanjay was suggesting before (as the BSes aren't really ports on the "back-half" authenticator but are Access Controllers with distinct identity and credentials). - Jeff On Apr 8, 2005 3:53 AM, Bakshi, Sanjay wrote: > Bernard, > Starting a new thread as promised... > Please see my comments below. > Thanks, > sanjay > > > Issues that come to my mind are > > a) MTU discovery > > For the minimum MTU of 1020 specified in RFC3748 can be used > > EAP can't do MTU discovery, per se. Are you saying that a minimum MTU > of 1020 is always available? > <> Per RFC MTU of 1020 is the minimum that should be supported > > > b) Channel Binding > > Are there any EAP methods that implement this? > > Yes, there are methods that are capable of this. The EAP peer and > server verify that the "authenticator" they see is offering the same > information to each of them. For example: > > Authenticator MAC address as seen by peer = Called-Station-ID in > Access-Request > SSID as seen by peer = SSID in Access-Request > NAS-Identifer as seen by peer = NAS-Identifier in Request > > <> So is it fair to say that channel binding is a way to verify > the identity of the authenticator. It seems it directly does not really > have to do anything with the lower layer used to communicate between > peer and authenticator. Lower layer just happens to have some attributes > such Authenticator MAC that help identify the Authenticator? > > Also it seems there is an implicit assumption that for channel binding > to work as per rfc3748, either the peer needs to know the identity of > the authenticator up front or an authenticator should be able to > advertise its identity to securely somehow? > > Also can you give me examples of EAP-methods that support channel > binding? > > > > It is not clear to me how Channel Binding is implemented when pass- > > thru authenticator is in use. This because the Channel (lower > > layer) between peer and pass-thru authenticator is different from the > > lower layer between pass-thru authenticator and AAA backend that > > execute the EAP method. > > I'm not sure why this would affect Channel bindings. > <> I agree with you. > > _______________________________________________ > eap mailing list > eap@frascone.com > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap > _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eliezerRDCEhanley@fornariusa.com Fri Apr 8 12:46:35 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12178; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:46:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200504081646.MAA12178@ietf.org> Received: from dhcp80ff79c8.dynamic.uiowa.edu ([128.255.121.200]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DJwli-0007u9-Eq; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:55:42 -0400 Received: from server722.crancofoods.com (128.255.121.200) by 128.255.121.200 (Sun Java System Messaging Server 5.8 HotFix 0.69) with SMTP id ; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 18:42:21 +0100 Reply-To: "casi hashimot" From: "casi hashimot" To: dn@ietf.org Cc: drafts@ietf.org, e3@ietf.org, eamoby@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, edu-team@ietf.org, edu-team-web-archive@ietf.org, entmib@ietf.org, entmib-admin@ietf.org, entmib-request@ietf.org, enum@ietf.org, enum-admin@ietf.org, enum-archive@ietf.org, enum-request@ietf.org, eos@ietf.org, ep@ietf.org, eqncdtwgkfussru@ietf.org, equest@ietf.org, er-wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Mort App : 067561 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 19:42:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Scanned: Symantec Scan Engine v0.1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--675326_21543490.jBc263" X-Spam-Score: 19.3 (+++++++++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 ----675326_21543490.jBc263 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Dear Homeowner,

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r-m-v your self: http://excellentlowrates.com/x/st.html ----675326_21543490.jBc263-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Fri Apr 8 17:16:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA13072 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD03E20746; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37DDC2073C; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:16:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D5E20741 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailout3.samsung.com (mailout3.samsung.com [203.254.224.33]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76D392073B for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:15:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from custom-daemon.mailout3.samsung.com by mailout3.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) id <0IEN00701CD8YT@mailout3.samsung.com> for eap@frascone.com; Sat, 09 Apr 2005 06:15:08 +0900 (KST) Received: from ep_mmp1 (mailout3.samsung.com [203.254.224.33]) by mailout3.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IEN007BGCD8H1@mailout3.samsung.com> for eap@frascone.com; Sat, 09 Apr 2005 06:15:08 +0900 (KST) Received: from Alperyegin ([105.144.29.41]) by mmp1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with ESMTPA id <0IEN004XFC9XIL@mmp1.samsung.com> for eap@frascone.com; Sat, 09 Apr 2005 06:15:08 +0900 (KST) From: Alper Yegin Subject: RE: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes In-reply-to: <42568B00.1000204@streetwaves-networks.com> To: "'Jeff Mandin'" , "'Sanjay'" , "'Bernard Aboba'" Cc: eap@frascone.com Message-id: <020201c53c80$0b4b93b0$6601a8c0@sisa.samsung.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:13:10 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, Just a clarification question: > 1. Regarding channel binding: "pure" 802.16e authentication is done > entirely inside the MAC layer (fundamentally different from 802.1x) and > all credentials belong to a single Interface/BSId. How are they fundamentally different? I'd appreciate some elaboration. Thanks Alper _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Fri Apr 8 17:49:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA14888 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23EC720379; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB78B2026A; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:49:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352EE2026A for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:48:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7D11FE05 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DK1L5-000Nq3-7D; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 17:48:31 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j38LmTs22788; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:48:30 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: Jeff Mandin Cc: Sanjay , eap@frascone.com In-Reply-To: <42568B00.1000204@streetwaves-networks.com> Message-ID: References: <42568B00.1000204@streetwaves-networks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:48:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > 1. Regarding channel binding: "pure" 802.16e authentication is done > entirely inside the MAC layer (fundamentally different from 802.1x) and > all credentials belong to a single Interface/BSId. EAP is media independent. The EAP peer and server identities are not bound to a particular port or MAC address, and so neither are the exported keys. Channel binding, if it is to be accomplished, needs to be done explicitly within the EAP method, AAA protocol and/or Secure Association Protocol. > 2. Consequently, for pure 802.16e the Authenticator as well is always > identified with a particular BSId/Interface. As described in the EAP key management framework, an EAP authenticator's identity is not bound to a particular interface by the EAP conversation. An EAP authenticator can have multiple ports, and where key caching is supported, an EAP peer cannot necessarily assume that the key scope is restricted to the particular port on which it connects to the authenticator. For example, when a WLAN switch is deployed, the key cache may exist on the switch, not on each individual BSSID. As a result, if 802.16e supports key caching, and if an authenticator may have more than one port, then the authenticator identity needs to be made available to the EAP peer, not just the BSId, so that the peer can determine the key scope. I'd also note that an EAP peer can have multiple ports too, so that it cannot be assumed that the EAP exchange implicitly binds the exported keys to the interface over which EAP occurred. > Consequently a > channel-binding EAP method could use the BSId to enable both the AAA > Server and peer to affirm the endpoints for the authentication and key > scope. (EAP-TTLS has optional support for channel binding BTW). If an 802.16e authenticator can have multiple ports, then the BSId is not equivalent to the authenticator identity. That would imply that the key scope is undefined on the EAP peer, and that Channel bindings can only verify the Called-Station-Id, not the NAS-Identifier. > So basic 16e can support channel binding methods easily. If an authenticator can have multiple ports, it would not appear to me that Channel Binding is correctly supported. > 3. The "Split Authenticator" proposal does seem to introduce issues > however .... because in that case the authentication is being done > simultaneously - in effect - for all BSes using the same centralized > "back-half" Authenticator. Yes. This raises the same issues as were caused by the introduction of WLAN switches in 802.11. > I think that's what Sanjay was suggesting > before (as the BSes aren't really ports on the "back-half" authenticator > but are Access Controllers with distinct identity and credentials). Overall, it seems like 802.16e is grappling with some of the issues that IEEE 802.11i failed to resolve successfully. That is part of the reason why the EAP Key Management framework gives fairly detailed advice on the effects of key caching. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From WXWMBQSY@execpc.com Sat Apr 9 00:47:48 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA10623; Sat, 9 Apr 2005 00:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 12-203-113-223.client.insightbb.com ([12.203.113.223]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DK81h-0000nq-NT; Sat, 09 Apr 2005 00:57:00 -0400 X-Message-Info: LUTOqJ0pvsQSSa/pvyQLfLfKnRcHMi406KJH Received: from couscous-v625.alfalfa.email.msn.com (192.148.185.217) by ofq929-m00.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Sat, 09 Apr 2005 03:43:01 -0200 From: Jordan Presley To: ldap-dir@ietf.org Subject: Posses whatever drag you want structure Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 23:41:01 -0600 EST Message-ID: <08989713.0097439.401@silky-dzr90.email.msn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--zbcxgv661602717mofkl" X-Spam-Score: 8.2 (++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 ----zbcxgv661602717mofkl Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit neew, improoved drags on our online website! just try us, you wont be dissappointed... for sure :) you wont stop scrrewing with viaggra, enjoy!: http://uproarious.oi6.net/p/erika/20/degeneracy.htm wanna get rid of smoking? 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localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF0D32056B; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 363FE20565; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:56:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1ED20565 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 703BD20561 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DKfif-0004Ve-V4 for eap@frascone.com; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:55:34 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j3AGtWJ20748 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:55:33 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: eap@frascone.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] RE: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:55:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > 1. Is Channel Binding a mandatory requirement? > Based on my understanding it is not. Please let me if I am wrong. The Housley Criteria describe the mandatory properties of AAA key management. One of those mandatory propreties is binding of the key to the proper context. Channel binding is just one way to accomplish this, but there are other approaches. In fact, those other approaches (such as binding within the Secure Association Protocol) may be preferrable since they work with any EAP method. > 2. What issues do you see if Authenticator and Peer are separated by a > layer 2 switch that changes the EAP lower layer? > I know channel binding becomes an issue. Besides that what other > issues do you see? There are a number of potential issues depending on the exact configuration. As I understand it, this issue is now under discussion within CAPWAP, for example. Overall, the issue is whether the Housley Criteria are being compromised. > 3. Also, I was trying to understand the purpose of channel binding? > As I understand, it is used for establishing the identity of > Authenticator and it uses channel (lower layer) properties mainly > because they identify the Authenticator in some way. The key transported from the AAA server to the authenticator has a context. This includes: * The identity of the parties involved (peer, authenticator, server). * The key lifetimes. * The scope of key usage (key cache extent) * Authorizations (authorized SSID, authorized called-station-id, etc.) The Housley Criteria require that this context be synchronized between the EAP peer, server and authenticator. Channel binding is a mechanism for achieving key context synchronization between the EAP peer and server. However, that is not the only way that synchronization can be achieved between the three parties. > 4. How does a peer come to know about the attributes, such as Called- > Station-Id, NAS-Identifier etc., used for channel binding? It seems > to me that they have to configured in the peer via some secure means > and cannot be determined via a beacon etc. from the access point or > a base station. The server obtains the Called-Station-Id, NAS-Identifier and other attributes from the authenticator. It is the job of the lower layer to securely provide these attributes to the peer so that the state can be synchronized between the peer, authenticator and server. The information can be transmitted in a Beacon or Probe Response, but it also needs to be verified in a cryptographically secured handshake (such as the 4-way handshake in 802.11i). The attributes to be passed between the peer and authenticator need to be defined within the lower layer, such as within IEs in 802.11. New IEs can be defined later that may have significant security implications (such as cost), so extensibility is recommended. For example, 802.11i allows additional IEs to be included (and verified) within the 4-way handshake. Note that there is wide latitude in terms of the format with which the attributes are exchanged between the authenticator and peer. For example, the AAA server could send an encrypted token to the NAS that could be passed to the peer via the lower layer. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Sun Apr 10 13:06:05 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02535 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9D92056D; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5357520567; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:06:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4449420567 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDB420561 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DKfsL-0005Fh-JZ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:05:33 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j3AH5WH21514; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:05:32 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: "Bakshi, Sanjay" Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] Re: IEEE 802.16e EAP usage modes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:05:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) > <> Per RFC MTU of 1020 is the minimum that should be supported Yes. > <> So is it fair to say that channel binding is a way to verify > the identity of the authenticator. Channel binding is a way to attempt to satisfy one of the security requirements (key binding) in a scenario where the lower layer doesn't provide the required binding. Authenticator identity is only one element of the key binding problem. Others include key lifetime, key scope, and authorizations. > Lower layer just happens to have some attributes > such Authenticator MAC that help identify the Authenticator? Actually the point was that the Authenticator MAC does not identify the Authenticator if the Authenticator may have multiple ports. > Also it seems there is an implicit assumption that for channel binding > to work as per rfc3748, either the peer needs to know the identity of > the authenticator up front or an authenticator should be able to > advertise its identity to securely somehow? The EAP peer needs to know the Authenticator identity in order to determine the key scope, for example. It is better to learn this information early on, so as to enable more efficient roaming. As an example, when WLAN switches are implemented, the key cache may reside on the switch rather than in individual access points. Where the WLAN switch acts as the Authenticator, the view of the Authenticator identity is not synchronized between the EAP peer, server and authenticator. As a result, an EAP peer may not know whether a given Access Point has a AAA-Key in the key cache or not. _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Sun Apr 10 13:43:06 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA05165 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:43:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E232056E; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCB820569; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:43:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29FC20569 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outbound.mailhop.org (outbound.mailhop.org [63.208.196.171]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB31920561 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-67-182-139-247.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([67.182.139.247] helo=internaut.com) by outbound.mailhop.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1DKgRz-0006dO-Hv for eap@frascone.com; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:42:23 -0400 Received: from localhost (aboba@localhost) by internaut.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j3AHgMl23660 for ; Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:42:22 -0700 From: Bernard Aboba To: eap@frascone.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS.org X-Originating-IP: 67.182.139.247 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.org (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] Any last comments on draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-12.txt? Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:42:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) The -12 version of the EAP Network Discovery document is now available on the IETF archive at: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-12.txt This document has requested publication as an Informational RFC via the RFC editor individual submissino route. Unless we hear any comments by Monday, April 18, 2005 we are going to assume this document has completed review and we will inform the IESG of that. So if you any remaining issues, please post them to the EAP WG mailing list (eap@frascone.com). 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In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_2935406==.ALT" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.41 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:31:34 +0530 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) --=====================_2935406==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hell Henry, Thanks for the mail. Just to consolidate my understanding, Identity exchanged in the EAP-Identity/Response, can be obfuscated, truncated, or decorated. This information can be used to select the method for authentication, and some routing information. So, if the Identity exchanged in the EAP-Identity/Response, has user name, which is prep ended with "0", then the authentication method to be selected can be AKA. If prep ended with "1", then the authentication method can be SIM. This is how, permanent user names if sent, the server has the clue to select the authentication methods. Of course this has to be done, only during EAP-Identity/response phase, not during AT_IDENTITY, as in the latter case, method is already known. Is my understanding correct? regards Suresh > >Hello Suresh, > >The term "identity" refers to an identity string that includes the realm >portion in environments where a realm is needed. "Username" refers to >the username portion of the identity. Explanations for the terms >"permanent identity" and "permanent username" are included in the terms >section >of the documents. > >The leading digit (0 or 1) of the permanent username would be useful as a >hint only when processing >an EAP-Response/Identity packet. The peer uses AT_IDENTITY only in >response to an EAP-SIM or EAP-AKA >packet, so the EAP method has already been selected in this phase. Hence >the server does not need to use the leading digit of the username as an >EAP method selection >hint anymore. Nevertheless, if the peer composes the permanent username from >the IMSI, as specified in the drafts, then the peer will still include the >leading digit. > >The format of AT_IDENTITY is specified in section 9.8 of EAP-SIM and section >9.5 of EAP-AKA. These sections say that the same identity format is used >in the AT_IDENTITY >attribute and the EAP-Response/Identity packet, with the exception >that the peer MUST NOT decorate the identity it includes in AT_IDENTITY. >The identity format is >specified in section 4.2.1 of EAP-SIM and 4.1.1 of EAP-AKA. > >The realm portion is not considered as decoration. In other words, If the >identity includes a realm >portion in the present enviroment, then the peer includes the realm also >in the AT_IDENTITY attribute. > >Best regards, >Henry > >-----Original Message----- >From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of >ext Suresh >Sent: 06 April, 2005 10:13 >To: eap@frascone.com >Subject: [eap] EAP SIM and AKA identities. > >> >>Hi >>I have a small clarification in the identities and user names used in the >>EAP-SIM and AKA implementations. >>When ever a client needs to send fill in the AT_IDENTITY attribute, it >>has to fill in the complete identity, and the identity may or may not >>have a realm portion. >>The format of the permanent user name is 0|IMSI and 1|IMSI for the AKA >>and SIM respectively. >>It is also given that >> >> The EAP server MAY use the leading "1" as a hint to try EAP-SIM as >> the first authentication method during method negotiation, rather >> than for example EAP/AKA. The EAP-SIM server MAY propose EAP-SIM >> even if the leading character was not "1". >> >>for EAP-AKA. >> >>I could not understand how user name is sent to the EAP-Server, in >>actual, complete identity is sent in the AT_IDENTITY attribute and not >>just the user name. >> >>regards, >>Suresh >> >> --=====================_2935406==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hell Henry,

Thanks for the mail. Just to consolidate my understanding, Identity exchanged in the EAP-Identity/Response, can be obfuscated, truncated, or decorated. This information can be used to select the method for authentication, and some routing information. So, if the Identity exchanged in the EAP-Identity/Response, has user name, which is prep ended with "0", then the authentication method to be selected can be AKA. If prep ended with "1", then the authentication method can be SIM. This is how, permanent user names if sent, the server has the clue to select the authentication methods.

Of course this has to be done, only during EAP-Identity/response phase, not during AT_IDENTITY, as in the latter case, method is already known.
Is my understanding correct?

regards
Suresh



 
Hello Suresh,
 
The term "identity" refers to an identity string that includes the realm
portion in environments where a realm is needed. "Username" refers to
the username portion of the identity. Explanations for the terms
"permanent identity" and "permanent username" are included in the terms section
of the documents.
 
The leading digit (0 or 1) of the permanent username would be useful as a hint only when processing
an EAP-Response/Identity packet. The peer uses AT_IDENTITY only in response to an EAP-SIM or EAP-AKA
packet, so the EAP method has already been selected in this phase. Hence
the server does not need to use the leading digit of the username as an EAP method selection
hint anymore. Nevertheless, if the peer composes the permanent username from
the IMSI, as specified in the drafts, then the peer will still include the leading digit.
 
The format of AT_IDENTITY is specified in section 9.8 of EAP-SIM and section
9.5 of EAP-AKA. These sections say that the same identity format is used in the AT_IDENTITY
attribute and the EAP-Response/Identity packet, with the exception
that the peer MUST NOT decorate the identity it includes in AT_IDENTITY. The identity format is
specified in section 4.2.1 of EAP-SIM and  4.1.1 of EAP-AKA.
 
The realm portion is not considered as decoration. In other words, If the identity includes a realm
portion in the present enviroment, then the peer includes the realm also in the AT_IDENTITY attribute.
 
Best regards,
Henry
 
-----Original Message-----
From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of ext Suresh
Sent: 06 April, 2005 10:13
To: eap@frascone.com
Subject: [eap] EAP SIM and AKA identities.


Hi
I have a small clarification in the identities and user names used in the EAP-SIM and AKA implementations.
When ever a client needs to send fill in the AT_IDENTITY attribute, it has to fill in the complete identity, and the identity may or may not have a realm portion.
The format of the permanent user name is 0|IMSI and 1|IMSI for the AKA and SIM respectively.
It is also given that

   The EAP server MAY use the leading "1" as a hint to try EAP-SIM as
   the first authentication method during method negotiation, rather
   than for example EAP/AKA.  The EAP-SIM server MAY propose EAP-SIM
   even if the leading character was not "1".

for EAP-AKA.

I could not understand how user name is sent to the EAP-Server, in actual, complete identity is sent in the AT_IDENTITY attribute and not just the user name.

regards,
Suresh
                                                                                                                                         

--=====================_2935406==.ALT-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon Apr 11 04:50:09 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA22876 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAD4F204C7; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E50C3204B3; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:50:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C4FC204A8 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:49:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mgw-x3.nokia.com (mgw-x3.nokia.com [131.228.20.26]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD4B2204A1 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:49:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esdks002.ntc.nokia.com (esdks002.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.121]) by mgw-x3.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j3B8nZe15559; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:49:35 +0300 (EET DST) X-Scanned: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:45:42 +0300 Nokia Message Protector V1.3.34 2004121512 - RELEASE Received: (from root@localhost) by esdks002.ntc.nokia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id j3B8jgQ2010548; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:45:42 +0300 Received: from mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (172.21.143.97) by esdks002.ntc.nokia.com 00xdM9s4; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:45:40 EEST Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh004.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.84]) by mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j3B8jeU12916; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:45:40 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebe009.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.41]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:45:31 +0300 Received: from trebe101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.22.124.61]) by esebe009.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:45:31 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C53E72.D0B13742" Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Thread-Index: AcU63cr85t/OVNmsTkC+sAIw76VUGQDlDVMg From: To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Apr 2005 08:45:31.0759 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1D617F0:01C53E72] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:45:29 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53E72.D0B13742 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Hi Madjid, =20 The term "EAP server" simply refers to the entity that implemens the EAP-SIM server part. Usually this is implemented in a AAA server. The "authenticator" is a term that EAP documents use for the first-hop = entity (NAS or 802.11 access point). In principle, the EAP server could be co-located in the NAS, but I don't think this is likely in the case of = EAP-SIM. =20 If the access technology requires an EAP exhange upon a handover,=20 then you can run either mode of EAP-SIM there (full or fast re-auth). Unless pre-authentication is used, this kind of handover is not likely = to be very smooth. If there is a need to run an EAP exchange even through=20 you haven't moved to a new AP, you can also run either mode.=20 EAP-SIM does not define when to use the fast re-auth mode. =20 Regards, Henry -----Original Message----- From: ext Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com] Sent: 06 April, 2005 22:19 To: 'Thomas Wieland' Cc: eap@frascone.com; Haverinen Henry (Nokia-ES/Jyvaskyla); Nakhjiri = Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Hi Thomas, =20 Thanks for being among helpful "other people" :-) Ok, I am not sure how fast re-authentication protects the use identity, = so I can understand if no protection is provided, that would be one way = to protect the permanent identities such as IMSI. But what I don't understand is how every use of IMSI means use of new = triplets? Sure EAP-SIM draft says that it does not allow re-use of triplets (I = guess for full authentication), but from what I understand the fast = re-authentication does not use any triplets, so the question of "re-use = versus using fresh" should be moot. =20 I do have another issue with the fast re-auth. Most of the sequence = charts only show a peer and an authenticator. Does this mean the = authenticator is the NAS or that it is the EAP server? I am trying to = understand how this fits into a 3 party EAP authentication model and = whether the fast re-authentication can apply to handovers or it is just = re-authentication to the same authenticator? =20 Regards, =20 Madjid =20 -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Wieland [mailto:twieland@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:41 AM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: eap@frascone.com; henry.haverinen@nokia.com Subject: Re: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity =20 Hi Madjid, I'm not an author but "other people", but maybe I can shed=20 some light on this. Henry can always correct and expand. There is nothing "wrong" with the identities used during full authentication (i.e. either permanent identity, e.g. 1IMSI @realm, or pseudonym identity). The "problem", if you will, is that by definition of a full authentication, these identities require the use of 2 or 3 GSM triplets to authenticate. =20 For one, this implies at least one round trip to a remote server,=20 i.e. the HLR/AuC where the triplets are generated. This is=20 usually much slower than going through the calculations=20 necessary to iterate the keying material locally at the AAA=20 server. It also means additional load on the HLR/AuC. The second "bad" aspect is that each full EAP-SIM authentication uses=20 up 2 or 3 triplets. The number of triplets that can be generated by = each=20 SIM is usually limited (e.g. to 50,000) due to security concerns. This=20 doesn't matter too much in a GSM mobile network as authentications only use only one triplet and occur relatively infrequently compared to, for example, public WLAN. For EAP-SIM used in a PWLAN scenario, not only do you use up 2 or 3 triplets per authentication, the = authentications=20 also happen much more frequently. For example every time every time=20 a PC gets turned on (or woken up), when a user roams between access points etc. You can see how you could be chewing through the available triplets pretty fast and once you've reached the limit hard-wired into = the SIM, your SIM is dead and needs to be replaced. =20 By using the fast re-auth mechanism, not only do you speed up=20 EAP-SIM authentications (hence "fast" :-), you also reduce the load on the back-end server (AuC) and extend the life of your SIM. In other words, "it's a good thing". Regards, Thomas At 10:05 05-04-05 -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: Hi,=20 =20 I have a question regarding the EAP-SIM method for fast = re-authentication and would appreciate it if the authors and other = people respond. Why is a specific identity used for fast = re-authentication? What is the problem with using the identities that = were used during the full authentication? The initial identity that is = sent in EAP-Response/ Identity should not have a problem, right? =20 Thanks in advance, =20 Madjid Nakhjiri ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53E72.D0B13742 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Hi=20 Madjid,
 
The=20 term "EAP server" simply refers to the entity that = implemens
the=20 EAP-SIM server part. Usually this is implemented in a AAA=20 server.
The=20 "authenticator" is a term that EAP documents use for the first-hop=20 entity
(NAS=20 or 802.11 access point). In principle, the EAP server could=20 be
co-located in the NAS, but I don't think this is likely in the = case of=20 EAP-SIM.
 
If the=20 access technology requires an EAP exhange upon a handover, =
then=20 you can run either mode  of EAP-SIM there (full or fast=20 re-auth).
Unless=20 pre-authentication is used, this kind of handover is not likely to=20 be
very=20 smooth. If there is a need to run an EAP = exchange even=20 through
you=20 haven't moved to a new AP, you can also run either = mode.=20
EAP-SIM does not define when to use the fast = re-auth=20 mode.
 
Regards,
Henry
-----Original Message-----
From: ext Nakhjiri = Madjid-MNAKHJI1=20 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com]
Sent: 06 April, 2005=20 22:19
To: 'Thomas Wieland'
Cc: eap@frascone.com; = Haverinen=20 Henry (Nokia-ES/Jyvaskyla); Nakhjiri = Madjid-MNAKHJI1
Subject: RE:=20 [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity

Hi=20 Thomas,

 

Thanks for = being=20 among helpful "other people" J

Ok, I am = not sure how=20 fast re-authentication protects the use identity, so I can understand = if no=20 protection is provided, that would be one way to protect the permanent = identities such as IMSI.

But what I = don't=20 understand is how every use of IMSI means use of new=20 triplets?

Sure = EAP-SIM draft=20 says that it does not allow re-use of triplets (I guess for full=20 authentication), but from what I understand the fast re-authentication = does=20 not use any triplets, so the question of "re-use versus using fresh" = should be=20 moot.

 

I do have = another=20 issue with the fast re-auth. Most of the sequence charts only show a = peer and=20 an authenticator. Does this mean the authenticator is the NAS or that = it is=20 the EAP server? I am trying to understand how this fits into a 3 party = EAP=20 authentication model and whether the fast re-authentication can apply = to=20 handovers or it is just re-authentication to the same=20 authenticator?

 

Regards,

 

Madjid

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Thomas=20 Wieland [mailto:twieland@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 = 2:41=20 AM
To: Nakhjiri=20 Madjid-MNAKHJI1
Cc: = eap@frascone.com; henry.haverinen@nokia.com
Subject: Re: [eap] EAP-SIM fast = re-auth=20 identity

 


Hi Madjid,

  I'm not an = author but=20 "other people", but maybe I can shed
some light on this.  = Henry can=20 always correct and expand.

There is nothing "wrong" with the = identities=20 used during full
authentication (i.e. either permanent identity, = e.g. 1IMSI=20 @realm,
or pseudonym identity).  The "problem", if you will, = is that=20 by
definition of a full authentication, these identities require = the
use=20 of 2 or 3 GSM triplets to authenticate. 

For one, this = implies at=20 least one round trip to a remote server,
i.e. the HLR/AuC where = the=20 triplets are generated.  This is
usually much slower than = going=20 through the calculations
necessary to iterate the keying material = locally=20 at the AAA
server.  It also means additional load on the=20 HLR/AuC.

The second "bad" aspect is that each full EAP-SIM=20 authentication uses
up 2 or 3 triplets.  The number of = triplets that=20 can be generated by each
SIM is usually limited (e.g. to 50,000) = due to=20 security concerns.  This
doesn't matter too much in a GSM = mobile=20 network as authentications
only use only one triplet and occur = relatively=20 infrequently compared to,
for example, public WLAN.  For = EAP-SIM used=20 in a PWLAN scenario,
not only do you use up 2 or 3 triplets per=20 authentication, the authentications
also happen much more=20 frequently.  For example every time every time
a PC gets = turned on=20 (or woken up), when a user roams between access
points etc.  = You can=20 see how you could be chewing through the available
triplets pretty = fast and=20 once you've reached the limit hard-wired into the
SIM, your SIM is = dead and=20 needs to be replaced. 

By using the fast re-auth = mechanism, not=20 only do you speed up
EAP-SIM authentications (hence "fast" :-), = you also=20 reduce the
load on the back-end server (AuC) and extend the life of = your=20 SIM.
In other words, "it's a good = thing".

Regards,

 =20 Thomas



At 10:05 05-04-05 -0500, Nakhjiri = Madjid-MNAKHJI1=20 wrote:


Hi, =

 

I have a=20 question regarding the EAP-SIM method for fast re-authentication and = would=20 appreciate it if the authors and other people respond. Why is a = specific=20 identity used for fast re-authentication? What is the problem with = using the=20 identities that were used during the full authentication? The initial = identity=20 that is sent in EAP-Response/ Identity should not have a problem,=20 right?

 

Thanks in=20 advance,

 

Madjid=20 Nakhjiri

------_=_NextPart_001_01C53E72.D0B13742-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon Apr 11 04:58:08 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA23463 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6CB0204D1; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD7C204AA; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:58:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8FE204AA for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:57:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com (mgw-x4.nokia.com [131.228.20.27]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8817D204A1 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esdks001.ntc.nokia.com (esdks001.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.120]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j3B8v4r19492; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:57:04 +0300 (EET DST) X-Scanned: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:13:52 +0300 Nokia Message Protector V1.3.34 2004121512 - RELEASE Received: (from root@localhost) by esdks001.ntc.nokia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id j3B9DqhL006756; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:13:52 +0300 Received: from mgw-int1.ntc.nokia.com (172.21.143.96) by esdks001.ntc.nokia.com 000AOt85; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:13:50 EEST Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh004.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.84]) by mgw-int1.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j3B8tOM19772; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:55:24 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebe016.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.55]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:55:23 +0300 Received: from trebe101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.22.124.61]) by esebe016.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:55:23 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C53E74.31ACF61F" Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Thread-Index: AcU64iVxyG2+WEVTRAKdh4YTqwCS0ADkLp2w From: To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Apr 2005 08:55:23.0071 (UTC) FILETIME=[324924F0:01C53E74] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:55:22 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53E74.31ACF61F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Madjid, =20 Please see in line. -----Original Message----- From: ext Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com] =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: henry.haverinen@nokia.com [mailto:henry.haverinen@nokia.com]=20 =20 Thanks to the separate identities, fast re-authentication and full = authentication can be implemented=20 separately, more modularly, at the server.=20 =20 Madjid>>Can't both modules use the same identity for the peer? I am = guessing for fast re-auth you need to locate the MK, can't you do it = with the same identity as the one you used for full authentication? =20 Yes, if we had designed the protocol differently :-)=20 =20 This all relates to the management of temporary identities. If you want = to use a separate identity upon each EAP exchange, and if you perform a full = authentication after a fast re-authentication, then the last temporary identity that = you distributed during fast re-authentication would have to be available to the module = that performs full authentication. =20 When the server runs fast re-authentication, it does not have=20 to update the information about the full authentication pseudonym. Fast = re-authentication=20 could even be distributed to a separate entity, a separate subsystem of = the EAP server that does not need to have any access to the triplets or to other "long-term" = state of the subscriber.=20 =20 Madjid>> why do you need the triplets for fast re-authentication. Isn't = the user id and MK enough? =20 You don't need triplets for fast re-authentication. The = fast-reauthentication id, the counter, and the MK are enough. =20 A separate fast-reauthentication identity also indicates to the server = that the client wants to use fast re-authentication. Hence it is possible to "overload" the identity = with this indication and save a roundtrip in some cases. =20 Madjid>>Couldn't this be done with the same identity by some sort of = flag or subtype?=20 =20 Yes. In this procol, we did it with a separate identity. =20 When there are several AAA servers, pseudonyms should be decodable by = all the servers at the home network. They should also be decodable a long time after = they were delivered. Hence, the storing mechanism for pseudonyms is likely to be "expensive". = Fast re-authentication identities can be locally administered by a single server, and it does = not matter if they are not stored so "reliably".=20 =20 Madjid>> I guess it depends on how fast re-auth ID is created/ = communicated to the local server. I am guessing fast re-auth ID is generated after a full authentication = with a perm. ID is performed and the master key is sent from the central = server to the local server. If the MK is sent to the local server = processing the fast re-auth, why not send the perm. ID with it? Unless = you want to protect the perm. ID from the local server? =20 As said, this relates to the use of temporary identities, which are used = instead of the permanent identity for privacy reasons. If there were scenarios where fast = re-authentication would be distributed closer to=20 the access network (which I am not aware of, BTW ), and if you want to = use temporary identities, then it is better to have a separate identity "space" for the local server to = administer -- just as we=20 have currently in EAP-SIM.=20 =20 EAP-SIM does not allow the use of the permanent identity upon fast = re-authentication. This is not a problem, since the server needs to keep state anyway, so the = identity can be managed as part of the other state. =20 Regards, Henry =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53E74.31ACF61F Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Madjid,
 
Please=20 see in line.
-----Original Message-----
From: ext Nakhjiri = Madjid-MNAKHJI1=20 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com]
 
 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 henry.haverinen@nokia.com = [mailto:henry.haverinen@nokia.com] 
 

Thanks to = the=20 separate identities, fast re-authentication and full authentication = can be=20 implemented

separately, = more=20 modularly, at the server.

 

Madjid>>Can't=20 both modules use the same identity for the peer? I am guessing for = fast=20 re-auth you need to locate the MK, can't you do it with the same = identity as=20 the one you used for full = authentication?

 

Yes, if we had designed the protocol = differently :-)=20

 

This all relates to the management of = temporary=20 identities. If you want to use

a separate identity upon each EAP exchange, = and if you=20 perform a full authentication

after a fast re-authentication, then the last = temporary=20 identity that you distributed

during fast re-authentication would have to = be=20 available to the module that

performs full = authentication.

 

When the = server runs=20 fast re-authentication, it does not have

to update = the=20 information about the full authentication pseudonym. Fast = re-authentication=20

could even = be=20 distributed to a separate entity, a separate subsystem of the EAP = server=20 that

does not = need to have=20 any access to the triplets or to other "long-term" state of the = subscriber.=20

 

Madjid>> why do=20 you need the triplets for fast re-authentication. Isn't the user id = and MK=20 enough?

 

You don't = need triplets=20 for fast re-authentication. The fast-reauthentication id,=20 the

counter,=20 and the MK = are=20 enough.

 

A separate=20 fast-reauthentication identity also indicates to the server that the = client=20 wants to use

fast=20 re-authentication. Hence it is possible to "overload" the identity = with this=20 indication and

save a = roundtrip in=20 some cases.

 

Madjid>>Couldn't=20 this be done with the same identity by some sort of flag or subtype?=20

 

Yes. In this = procol, we=20 did it with a separate identity.

 

When there = are=20 several AAA servers, pseudonyms should be decodable by all the=20 servers

at the home = network.=20 They should also be decodable a long time after they were=20 delivered.

Hence, the = storing=20 mechanism for pseudonyms is likely to be "expensive". Fast=20 re-authentication

identities = can be=20 locally administered by a single server, and it does not matter if = they=20 are

not stored = so=20 "reliably".

 

Madjid>> I=20 guess it depends on how fast re-auth ID is created/ communicated to = the local=20 server.

I am = guessing fast=20 re-auth ID is generated after a full authentication with a perm. ID is = performed and the master key is sent from the central server to the = local=20 server. If the MK is sent to the local server processing the fast = re-auth, why=20 not send the perm. ID with it? Unless you want to protect the perm. ID = from=20 the local server?

 

As said, this relates to the use of temporary = identities, which are used instead of the permanent = identity

for privacy reasons.  = If there were scenarios where fast = re-authentication=20 would be distributed closer to

the access network (which I am not aware of, BTW ), and = if you=20 want to use temporary identities, then

it is better to have a separate identity = "space" for=20 the local server to administer -- just as we

have currently in EAP-SIM.

 

EAP-SIM does not allow the use of the = permanent=20 identity upon fast re-authentication. This

is not a problem, since the server needs to = keep state=20 anyway, so the identity can

be managed as part of the other=20 state.

 

Regards,

Henry

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C53E74.31ACF61F-- _______________________________________________ eap mailing list eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap From eap-admin@frascone.com Mon Apr 11 05:21:07 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA24904 for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:21:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72533204ED; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:21:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2583204CB; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:21:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721EC204CB for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mgw-x2.nokia.com (mgw-x2.nokia.com [131.228.20.22]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 272A6204BF for ; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:20:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esdks004.ntc.nokia.com (esdks004.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.159]) by mgw-x2.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j3B9KrO18556; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:20:53 +0300 (EET DST) X-Scanned: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:19:38 +0300 Nokia Message Protector V1.3.34 2004121512 - RELEASE Received: (from root@localhost) by esdks004.ntc.nokia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id j3B9Jc3j021065; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:19:38 +0300 Received: from mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (172.21.143.97) by esdks004.ntc.nokia.com 00A72IAU; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:19:37 EEST Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh004.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.84]) by mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j3B9JbU10584; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:19:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.56]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:19:36 +0300 Received: from trebe101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.22.124.61]) by esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:19:37 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C53E77.93D9C362" Subject: RE: [eap] EAP SIM and AKA identities. Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] EAP SIM and AKA identities. Thread-Index: AcU+W2c64IxCfDAdSMeXF9g7nHpZHQAG0Arg From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Apr 2005 09:19:37.0202 (UTC) FILETIME=[9503ED20:01C53E77] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:19:35 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53E77.93D9C362 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Hi Suresh, =20 Please see inline. =20 -----Original Message----- From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of = ext Suresh =20 Hell Henry, Thanks for the mail. Just to consolidate my understanding, Identity = exchanged in the EAP-Identity/Response, can be obfuscated, truncated, or = decorated. This information can be used to select the method for = authentication, and some routing information. So, if the Identity = exchanged in the EAP-Identity/Response, has user name, which is prep = ended with "0", then the authentication method to be selected can be = AKA. If prep ended with "1", then the authentication method can be SIM. = This is how, permanent user names if sent, the server has the clue to = select the authentication methods.=20 =20 Right. The drafts recommend the server not to rely on the identity = string sent in EAP-Identity/Response. The leading digit may be used as an EAP method seletion hint during = method negotiation, but there may=20 be other ways to select the EAP method, too.=20 =20 Of course this has to be done, only during EAP-Identity/response phase, = not during AT_IDENTITY, as in the latter case, method is already known. Is my understanding correct? =20 =20 Yes, you are right that the contents of the identity in AT_IDENTITY must = not be used as any kind of hint to select the EAP method anymore. But if you compose the permanent = user name from the IMSI=20 as specified in the drafts, then you must prepend the leading digit in = all cases, even for AT_IDENTITY. For simplicity, the drafts only specify one format for the permanent = identity, and that format is used always. =20 Best regards, Henry =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53E77.93D9C362 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Hi=20 Suresh,
 
Please=20 see inline.
 
 -----Original = Message-----
From:=20 eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of = ext=20 Suresh
 
Hell Henry,

Thanks for the mail. Just to consolidate my=20 understanding, Identity exchanged in the EAP-Identity/Response, can be = obfuscated, truncated, or decorated. This information can be used to = select=20 the method for authentication, and some routing information. So, if = the=20 Identity exchanged in the EAP-Identity/Response, has user name, which = is prep=20 ended with "0", then the authentication method to be selected can be = AKA. If=20 prep ended with "1", then the authentication method can be SIM. This = is how,=20 permanent user names if sent, the server has the clue to select the=20 authentication methods. 
 
Right.=20 The drafts recommend the server not to rely on the identity string sent = in=20 EAP-Identity/Response.
The=20 leading digit may be used as an EAP method seletion hint during method=20 negotiation, but there may
be=20 other ways to select the EAP method, too. =
 
Of course this = has to be=20 done, only during EAP-Identity/response phase, not during AT_IDENTITY, = as in=20 the latter case, method is already known.
Is my understanding=20 correct?
 
 
Yes,=20 you are right that the contents of the identity in AT_IDENTITY=20 must not be used as any kind of
hint=20 to select  the EAP method anymore. But = if = you compose the=20 permanent user name from the IMSI
as=20 specified in the drafts, then you must=20 prepend the leading digit in all cases, even for=20 AT_IDENTITY.
For=20 simplicity, the drafts only specify one format for the permanent = identity, and=20 that format
is=20 used always.
 
Best=20 regards,
Henry
 
 
 
 
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to be re -mov(ed: http://gavan.hotrefinance.com/st.html ----36034_21941748.mHO88-- From eap-admin@frascone.com Tue Apr 12 15:20:05 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@[204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA27870 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5FCD2036B; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF55C20263; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7D620263 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ABEA1FFF3 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:18:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate4.mot.com (8.12.11/Motgate4) with ESMTP id j3CJNIER000679 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:23:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from il27exm03.cig.mot.com (il27exm03.cig.mot.com [10.17.193.4]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j3CJJBdK028903 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:19:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: by il27exm03.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:18:08 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 To: "'henry.haverinen@nokia.com'" , twieland@cisco.com Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C53F94.5A812F50" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:18:05 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C53F94.5A812F50 Content-Type: text/plain Hi Henry, I understand that most of EAP methods are designed for both 2- and 3 party models. However, I do think the EAP master key from EAP authentication only resides at the peer and the EAP server and so far we are ok for both 2 and 3 party models. Now if you choose to implement a key distribution based on the initial EAP authentication, you can choose to send your master key to the NAS. I am ok with that too, as long as you are not doing handovers. If you ARE doing handovers, then the master key should not be sent to the NAS, because then after the handover both NAS will come to share the same master key and if the idea is to use the master key to run a security association protocol (such as a 4-way handshake) to arrive at peer-NAS temp keys, then you will have a serious threat problem. The fast re-authentication in this draft seems to use the initial master key to derive temp session keys (section 5.1). So based on what I said above, I am assuming it is the EAP server is the one who keeps the master key (EAP server or NAS) and derives the temp keys would be important in case fast re-authentication is used for handovers. So fast re-authentication still needs to happen based on interaction with the EAP server, even though you don't run all the initial EAP exchanges, correct? Regards, Madjid -----Original Message----- From: henry.haverinen@nokia.com [mailto:henry.haverinen@nokia.com] Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 3:45 AM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; twieland@cisco.com Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Hi Madjid, The term "EAP server" simply refers to the entity that implemens the EAP-SIM server part. Usually this is implemented in a AAA server. The "authenticator" is a term that EAP documents use for the first-hop entity (NAS or 802.11 access point). In principle, the EAP server could be co-located in the NAS, but I don't think this is likely in the case of EAP-SIM. If the access technology requires an EAP exhange upon a handover, then you can run either mode of EAP-SIM there (full or fast re-auth). Unless pre-authentication is used, this kind of handover is not likely to be very smooth. If there is a need to run an EAP exchange even through you haven't moved to a new AP, you can also run either mode. EAP-SIM does not define when to use the fast re-auth mode. Regards, Henry -----Original Message----- From: ext Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com] Sent: 06 April, 2005 22:19 To: 'Thomas Wieland' Cc: eap@frascone.com; Haverinen Henry (Nokia-ES/Jyvaskyla); Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Hi Thomas, Thanks for being among helpful "other people" :-) Ok, I am not sure how fast re-authentication protects the use identity, so I can understand if no protection is provided, that would be one way to protect the permanent identities such as IMSI. But what I don't understand is how every use of IMSI means use of new triplets? Sure EAP-SIM draft says that it does not allow re-use of triplets (I guess for full authentication), but from what I understand the fast re-authentication does not use any triplets, so the question of "re-use versus using fresh" should be moot. I do have another issue with the fast re-auth. Most of the sequence charts only show a peer and an authenticator. Does this mean the authenticator is the NAS or that it is the EAP server? I am trying to understand how this fits into a 3 party EAP authentication model and whether the fast re-authentication can apply to handovers or it is just re-authentication to the same authenticator? Regards, Madjid -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Wieland [mailto:twieland@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:41 AM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: eap@frascone.com; henry.haverinen@nokia.com Subject: Re: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Hi Madjid, I'm not an author but "other people", but maybe I can shed some light on this. Henry can always correct and expand. There is nothing "wrong" with the identities used during full authentication (i.e. either permanent identity, e.g. 1IMSI @realm, or pseudonym identity). The "problem", if you will, is that by definition of a full authentication, these identities require the use of 2 or 3 GSM triplets to authenticate. For one, this implies at least one round trip to a remote server, i.e. the HLR/AuC where the triplets are generated. This is usually much slower than going through the calculations necessary to iterate the keying material locally at the AAA server. It also means additional load on the HLR/AuC. The second "bad" aspect is that each full EAP-SIM authentication uses up 2 or 3 triplets. The number of triplets that can be generated by each SIM is usually limited (e.g. to 50,000) due to security concerns. This doesn't matter too much in a GSM mobile network as authentications only use only one triplet and occur relatively infrequently compared to, for example, public WLAN. For EAP-SIM used in a PWLAN scenario, not only do you use up 2 or 3 triplets per authentication, the authentications also happen much more frequently. For example every time every time a PC gets turned on (or woken up), when a user roams between access points etc. You can see how you could be chewing through the available triplets pretty fast and once you've reached the limit hard-wired into the SIM, your SIM is dead and needs to be replaced. By using the fast re-auth mechanism, not only do you speed up EAP-SIM authentications (hence "fast" :-), you also reduce the load on the back-end server (AuC) and extend the life of your SIM. In other words, "it's a good thing". Regards, Thomas At 10:05 05-04-05 -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: Hi, I have a question regarding the EAP-SIM method for fast re-authentication and would appreciate it if the authors and other people respond. Why is a specific identity used for fast re-authentication? What is the problem with using the identities that were used during the full authentication? The initial identity that is sent in EAP-Response/ Identity should not have a problem, right? 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gruyere@yebox.com Tue Apr 12 18:51:35 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20959; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:51:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [222.105.43.170] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DLUO0-0002ua-Pn; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:01:38 -0400 Received: from torpid-jcoppens.com (EHLO mite.jcoppens.com) by bordello.jcoppens.com with SMTP; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:53:32 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 05:51:32 +0600 From: "Sybil Currie" To: drafts@ietf.org Cc: drums-archive@ietf.org, dvsqhmanet@ietf.org, dxnvmrouting-discussion-admin@ietf.org, e@ietf.org, e3@ietf.org, eamoby@ietf.org, eap-archive@ietf.org, eb-archive@ietf.org, eccmtmagma-admin@ietf.org Subject: You've been selected for a low rate Message-ID: X-SpamTest-Info: Profile: SysLog X-SpamTest-Status: Not detected X-SpamTest-Version: SMTP-Filter Version 2.0.0 [642], SpamtestISP/Release X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) X-Spam-Score: 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From koreji@mail.bulgaria.com Tue Apr 12 22:52:07 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA08205; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:52:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host50.foretec.com ([65.246.255.50] helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DLY8o-0008VN-ON; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:02:11 -0400 Received: from [220.72.38.55] (helo=mail.bulgaria.com) by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1DLXyx-0006Wg-5e; Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:51:59 -0400 message-id: <000d01c53fd4$4382a820$df3a13a8@obqhd> From: "PerfectHGH" To: Subject: Help eliminate stress, fatigue and depression! Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:55:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C53F99.9723D020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d705d72e8b350fed958d93136c5ddf2 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C53F99.9723D020 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C53F99.9723D020" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C53F99.9723D020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Incredible Benefits! The United States has objected to an Israeli plan to add 3,650 homes to the West Bank's largest settlement, Maaleh Adumim. The plan would cut off Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank. Israel insists it has the right to continue expanding these settlements. The United States opposes any further construction there, saying it threatens peace with the Palestinians and violates the internationally backed "road map" peace plan that calls for a settlement freeze. Bush said Friday he would raise the issue with Sharon. "What I say publicly, I say privately. And that is, the 'road map' has clear obligations on settlements and that we expect the prime minister to adhere to those road map obligations," Bush said. The president has made the spread of democracy in the Mideast a goal of his second term. He also plans to meet with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah at his Texas ranch on April 25 and will see Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas when he visits the United States next month. Some Crawford businesses displayed the Israeli flag to welcome Sharon, while a few dozen protesters waving Palestinian flags marched around the small town's downtown intersection Sunday. The Unity Coalition for Israel also planned a demonstration Monday to tout claims that Palestinian statehood would be a reward for terrorism. The "road map" peace plan envisions an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel but has been frozen since its launch in June 2003 amid violations by both sides. Sharon has said he will not begin talks on a final peace deal until Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas cracks down on militant groups and disarms them. Bush agrees with Israel that Abbas must do more to rein in militants. Sharon wants Palestinian leaders to guarantee that Israelis will not come under fire during settlement evacuation. On Saturday, Israeli troops shot and killed three teenagers in disputed circumstances in the Gaza Strip, shattering weeks of calm and raising tensions. In response, Palestinian militants fired at least 21 mortar r ounds at Jewish settlements there, the army said. ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C53F99.9723D020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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The United States has objected to an Israeli = plan to add 3,650 homes to the West Bank's largest settlement, Maaleh = Adumim. The plan would cut off Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem from the = rest of the West Bank. Israel insists it has the right to continue expanding these settlements. = The United States opposes any further construction there, saying it = threatens peace with the Palestinians and violates the internationally = backed "road map" peace plan that calls for a settlement freeze. Bush said Friday he would raise the issue with Sharon. "What I say publicly, I say privately. And that is, the 'road map' has = clear obligations on settlements and that we expect the prime minister to = adhere to those road map obligations," Bush said. The president has made the spread of democracy in the Mideast a goal of = his second term. He also plans to meet with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah at = his Texas ranch on April 25 and will see Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas = when he visits the United States next month. Some Crawford businesses displayed the Israeli flag to welcome Sharon, = while a few dozen protesters waving Palestinian flags marched around the = small town's downtown intersection Sunday. The Unity Coalition for Israel = also planned a demonstration Monday to tout claims that Palestinian = statehood would be a reward for terrorism. The "road map" peace plan envisions an independent Palestinian state = alongside Israel but has been frozen since its launch in June 2003 amid = violations by both sides. Sharon has said he will not begin talks on a final peace deal until = Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas cracks down on militant groups and = disarms them. Bush agrees with Israel that Abbas must do more to rein in = militants. Sharon wants Palestinian leaders to guarantee that Israelis will not come = under fire during settlement evacuation. On Saturday, Israeli troops shot and killed three teenagers in disputed = circumstances in the Gaza Strip, shattering weeks of calm and raising = tensions. In response, Palestinian militants fired at least 21 mortar = rounds at Jewish settlements there, the army said.
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----8-5-33640340077623028819-- From tony2000@eresmas.com Thu Apr 14 06:51:32 2005 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA28781; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:51:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp11.eresmas.com ([62.81.235.111]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DM26a-0000kr-JM; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:01:54 -0400 Received: from [192.168.105.166] (helo=ma20.eresmas.com) by smtp11.eresmas.com with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1DLjE5-0004yu-00; Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:52:21 +0200 From: anthony uba 2341 To: tony2000@eresmas.com Reply-To: anthonyuba111@yahoo.co.in Message-ID: <217dba216589.216589217dba@ma20.eresmas.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:52:23 GMT X-Mailer: Netscape Webmail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: MR. Anthony Uba X-Accept-Language: en Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 12.3 (++++++++++++) X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

FROM THE DESK OF:
MR.Athony Uba

Dear Sir/Madam

I am MR Athony Uba, Bank Manager of Cometh Bank
Plc,Victoria-Island Branch I have an urgent and very confidential
business proposition  for you.

In 1996 - 1997, an Oil consultant/contractor with the Nigerian National
Petroleum Corporation, Engr. Nam Hyewon made a numbered time (Fixed)
Deposit for twelve calendar months, valued atS$25,000,000.00
(Twenty-five Million Dollars) in my branch. Upon maturity, I sent a
routine  notification to his forwarding address but got no reply. After
a
month, we  sent a reminder and finally we discovered from his contract
employers,  the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation that Engr. Nam
Hyewon died in  Korean Air Flight 801, which crashed in Guam on August
1997. On further  investigation, I found out that he died without
making a WILL, and all attempts to trace his next of kin was fruitless.
I therefore made further investigation and discovered that Engr. Nam
Hyewon did not declare any next of kin or relations in all her official
documents, including her Bank Deposit paperwork in my Bank. This sum of
US$25,000,000.00 is still sitting in my Bank and the interest is being
rolled over with the principal sum at the end of each year. No one will
ever come forward to claim it. According to Nigerian Law, at the
expiration of 6 (six) years, the money will revert to the ownership of
the Nigerian Government if nobody applies to claim this fund.

Consequently, my proposal is that I will like you as a foreigner to
stand in as the next of kin to Engr. Nam Hyewon so that the fruits of
this His labor will not get into the hands of some corrupt
government officials. This is simple, I will like you to provide
immediately your full names and address so that the Attorney will
prepare the  necessary documents and affidavits which will! put you in
place as the  next of  kin. We shall employ the services of two
Attorneys
for drafting and notarization of the WILL and to obtain the necessary
documents and letter of probate/administration in your favor for the
transfer.

I would need you as a Foreigner acting as the next of kin and sole
benefactor to the inheritance of Engr. Nam Hyewon to claim from the
bank. The money will be transferred to you for us to share in the ratio
of 60% for me and 40% for you. There is no risk at all as all the
paperwork for this transaction will be done by the Attorney and my
position as the Branch Manager guarantees the successful execution of
this transaction. If you are interested, please reply immediately via
the private email address below.Upon your response, I shall then
provide you with more details and relevant documents that will help you
understand the
transaction.

Please observe utmost confidentiality, and! rest assured that this
transaction would be most profitable for both of us because I shall
require your assistance to invest my share in your country.

anthonyuba1@yahoo.co.in
Thanks and regards.

MR. Anthony Uba
Cometh Bank plc

 


 

From eap-admin@frascone.com Thu Apr 14 11:05:12 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA22696 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACC6205B6; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:05:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E354205B2; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:05:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DCA2057C for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 272F7204F1 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esdks003.ntc.nokia.com (esdks003.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.158]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j3EF4g819468 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:04:42 +0300 (EET DST) X-Scanned: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:02:10 +0300 Nokia Message Protector V1.3.34 2004121512 - RELEASE Received: (from root@localhost) by esdks003.ntc.nokia.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) id j3EF2Apx014454 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:02:10 +0300 Received: from mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (172.21.143.97) by esdks003.ntc.nokia.com 00EAuliB; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:02:08 EEST Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh002.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.77]) by mgw-int2.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id j3EF28U02365 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:02:08 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebe016.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.55]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:47:36 +0300 Received: from trebe101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.22.124.61]) by esebe016.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:47:37 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C540F8.8400EE2C" Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Thread-Index: AcU/lIq0qgtpq9GXS4mnIsneKIH0EwBYkPBA From: To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Apr 2005 13:47:37.0953 (UTC) FILETIME=[85210D10:01C540F8] X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:47:36 +0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C540F8.8400EE2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Hi Madjid, =20 Yes, you are correct. The fast re-authentication exchange is performed = by the same=20 conceptual EAP server that performs the full authentication exchange. = The EAP-SIM document=20 or 3GPP WLAN IW documents do not have any provisions for distributing or = delegating fast handoffs outside the home network. So the master key is never sent = to the NAS. =20 The fast re-authentication exchange was not designed for fast handoffs. = The main reason is to have a less expensive procedure for frequent = re-authentications.=20 =20 Regards, Henry -----Original Message----- From: ext Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com] Sent: 12 April, 2005 22:18 To: Haverinen Henry (Nokia-ES/Jyvaskyla); twieland@cisco.com Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Hi Henry, =20 I understand that most of EAP methods are designed for both 2- and 3 = party models. However, I do think the EAP master key from EAP = authentication only resides at the peer and the EAP server and so far we = are ok for both 2 and 3 party models. Now if you choose to implement a = key distribution based on the initial EAP authentication, you can choose = to send your master key to the NAS. I am ok with that too, as long as = you are not doing handovers. If you ARE doing handovers, then the master = key should not be sent to the NAS, because then after the handover both = NAS will come to share the same master key and if the idea is to use the = master key to run a security association protocol (such as a 4-way = handshake) to arrive at peer-NAS temp keys, then you will have a serious = threat problem.=20 =20 The fast re-authentication in this draft seems to use the initial master = key to derive temp session keys (section 5.1). So based on what I said = above, I am assuming it is the EAP server is the one who keeps the = master key (EAP server or NAS) and derives the temp keys would be = important in case fast re-authentication is used for handovers. So fast = re-authentication still needs to happen based on interaction with the = EAP server, even though you don't run all the initial EAP exchanges, = correct? =20 Regards, =20 Madjid =20 -----Original Message----- From: henry.haverinen@nokia.com [mailto:henry.haverinen@nokia.com]=20 Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 3:45 AM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1; twieland@cisco.com Cc: eap@frascone.com Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity =20 =20 Hi Madjid, =20 The term "EAP server" simply refers to the entity that implemens the EAP-SIM server part. Usually this is implemented in a AAA server. The "authenticator" is a term that EAP documents use for the first-hop = entity (NAS or 802.11 access point). In principle, the EAP server could be co-located in the NAS, but I don't think this is likely in the case of = EAP-SIM. =20 If the access technology requires an EAP exhange upon a handover,=20 then you can run either mode of EAP-SIM there (full or fast re-auth). Unless pre-authentication is used, this kind of handover is not likely = to be very smooth. If there is a need to run an EAP exchange even through=20 you haven't moved to a new AP, you can also run either mode.=20 EAP-SIM does not define when to use the fast re-auth mode. =20 Regards, Henry -----Original Message----- From: ext Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com] Sent: 06 April, 2005 22:19 To: 'Thomas Wieland' Cc: eap@frascone.com; Haverinen Henry (Nokia-ES/Jyvaskyla); Nakhjiri = Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity Hi Thomas, =20 Thanks for being among helpful "other people" :-) Ok, I am not sure how fast re-authentication protects the use identity, = so I can understand if no protection is provided, that would be one way = to protect the permanent identities such as IMSI. But what I don't understand is how every use of IMSI means use of new = triplets? Sure EAP-SIM draft says that it does not allow re-use of triplets (I = guess for full authentication), but from what I understand the fast = re-authentication does not use any triplets, so the question of "re-use = versus using fresh" should be moot. =20 I do have another issue with the fast re-auth. Most of the sequence = charts only show a peer and an authenticator. Does this mean the = authenticator is the NAS or that it is the EAP server? I am trying to = understand how this fits into a 3 party EAP authentication model and = whether the fast re-authentication can apply to handovers or it is just = re-authentication to the same authenticator? =20 Regards, =20 Madjid =20 -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Wieland [mailto:twieland@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:41 AM To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 Cc: eap@frascone.com; henry.haverinen@nokia.com Subject: Re: [eap] EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity =20 Hi Madjid, I'm not an author but "other people", but maybe I can shed=20 some light on this. Henry can always correct and expand. There is nothing "wrong" with the identities used during full authentication (i.e. either permanent identity, e.g. 1IMSI @realm, or pseudonym identity). The "problem", if you will, is that by definition of a full authentication, these identities require the use of 2 or 3 GSM triplets to authenticate. =20 For one, this implies at least one round trip to a remote server,=20 i.e. the HLR/AuC where the triplets are generated. This is=20 usually much slower than going through the calculations=20 necessary to iterate the keying material locally at the AAA=20 server. It also means additional load on the HLR/AuC. The second "bad" aspect is that each full EAP-SIM authentication uses=20 up 2 or 3 triplets. The number of triplets that can be generated by = each=20 SIM is usually limited (e.g. to 50,000) due to security concerns. This=20 doesn't matter too much in a GSM mobile network as authentications only use only one triplet and occur relatively infrequently compared to, for example, public WLAN. For EAP-SIM used in a PWLAN scenario, not only do you use up 2 or 3 triplets per authentication, the = authentications=20 also happen much more frequently. For example every time every time=20 a PC gets turned on (or woken up), when a user roams between access points etc. You can see how you could be chewing through the available triplets pretty fast and once you've reached the limit hard-wired into = the SIM, your SIM is dead and needs to be replaced. =20 By using the fast re-auth mechanism, not only do you speed up=20 EAP-SIM authentications (hence "fast" :-), you also reduce the load on the back-end server (AuC) and extend the life of your SIM. In other words, "it's a good thing". Regards, Thomas At 10:05 05-04-05 -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 wrote: Hi,=20 =20 I have a question regarding the EAP-SIM method for fast = re-authentication and would appreciate it if the authors and other = people respond. Why is a specific identity used for fast = re-authentication? What is the problem with using the identities that = were used during the full authentication? The initial identity that is = sent in EAP-Response/ Identity should not have a problem, right? =20 Thanks in advance, =20 Madjid Nakhjiri ------_=_NextPart_001_01C540F8.8400EE2C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Hi=20 Madjid,
 
Yes,=20 you are correct. The fast re-authentication exchange is = performed by the=20 same
conceptual EAP server that performs the full authentication=20 exchange. The EAP-SIM document =
or=20 3GPP WLAN IW documents do not have any = provisions for=20 distributing or delegating
fast=20 handoffs outside the home network. So the master key is never sent to = the=20 NAS.
 
The=20 fast re-authentication exchange was not designed for fast handoffs. The=20 main
reason=20 is to have a less expensive procedure for = frequent re-authentications.
 
Regards,
Henry
-----Original Message-----
From: ext Nakhjiri = Madjid-MNAKHJI1=20 [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com]
Sent: 12 April, 2005=20 22:18
To: Haverinen Henry (Nokia-ES/Jyvaskyla);=20 twieland@cisco.com
Cc: eap@frascone.com
Subject: = RE: [eap]=20 EAP-SIM fast re-auth identity

Hi=20 Henry,

 

I = understand that=20 most of EAP methods are designed for both 2- and 3 party models. = However, I do=20 think the EAP master key from EAP authentication only resides at the = peer and=20 the EAP server and so far we are ok for both 2 and 3 party models. Now = if you=20 choose to implement a key distribution based on the initial EAP=20 authentication, you can choose to send your master key to the NAS. I = am ok=20 with that too, as long as you are not doing handovers. If you ARE = doing=20 handovers, then the master key should not be sent to the NAS, because = then=20 after the handover both NAS will come to share the same master key and = if the=20 idea is to use the master key to run a security association protocol = (such as=20 a 4-way handshake) to arrive at peer-NAS temp keys, then you will have = a=20 serious threat problem.

 

The fast=20 re-authentication in this draft seems to use the initial master key to = derive=20 temp session keys (section 5.1). So based on what I said above, I am = assuming=20 it is the EAP server is the one who keeps the master key (EAP server = or NAS)=20 and derives the temp keys would be important in case fast = re-authentication is=20 used for handovers. So fast re-authentication still needs to happen = based on=20 interaction with the EAP server, even though you don't run all the = initial EAP=20 exchanges, correct?

 

Regards,

 

Madjid

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 henry.haverinen@nokia.com [mailto:henry.haverinen@nokia.com] =
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 = 3:45=20 AM
To: Nakhjiri=20 Madjid-MNAKHJI1; twieland@cisco.com
Cc: = eap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM fast = re-auth=20 identity

 

 

Hi=20 Madjid,

 

The term = "EAP server"=20 simply refers to the entity that implemens

the EAP-SIM = server=20 part. Usually this is implemented in a AAA = server.

The = "authenticator"=20 is a term that EAP documents use for the first-hop=20 entity

(NAS or = 802.11 access=20 point). In principle, the EAP server could be

co-located = in the=20 NAS, but I don't think this is likely in the case of=20 EAP-SIM.

 

If the = access=20 technology requires an EAP exhange upon a handover, =

then you = can run=20 either mode  of EAP-SIM there (full or fast=20 re-auth).

Unless=20 pre-authentication is used, this kind of handover is not likely to=20 be

very = smooth. If=20 there is a need to run an EAP exchange even through=20

you haven't = moved to=20 a new AP, you can also run either mode.

EAP-SIM = does not=20 define when to use the fast re-auth mode.

 

Regards,

Henry

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: ext=20 Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 = [mailto:Madjid.Nakhjiri@motorola.com]
Sent: 06 April, 2005 = 22:19
To: 'Thomas = Wieland'
Cc: eap@frascone.com; = Haverinen Henry=20 (Nokia-ES/Jyvaskyla); Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1
Subject: RE: [eap] EAP-SIM = fast re-auth=20 identity

Hi=20 Thomas,

 

Thanks = for being=20 among helpful "other people" J

Ok, I am = not sure=20 how fast re-authentication protects the use identity, so I can = understand if=20 no protection is provided, that would be one way to protect the = permanent=20 identities such as IMSI.

But what = I don't=20 understand is how every use of IMSI means use of new=20 triplets?

Sure = EAP-SIM draft=20 says that it does not allow re-use of triplets (I guess for full=20 authentication), but from what I understand the fast = re-authentication does=20 not use any triplets, so the question of "re-use versus using fresh" = should=20 be moot.

 

I do have = another=20 issue with the fast re-auth. Most of the sequence charts only show a = peer=20 and an authenticator. Does this mean the authenticator is the NAS or = that it=20 is the EAP server? I am trying to understand how this fits into a 3 = party=20 EAP authentication model and whether the fast re-authentication can = apply to=20 handovers or it is just re-authentication to the same=20 authenticator?

 

Regards,

 

Madjid

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Thomas=20 Wieland [mailto:twieland@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, = 2005 2:41=20 AM
To: Nakhjiri=20 Madjid-MNAKHJI1
Cc:=20 eap@frascone.com; henry.haverinen@nokia.com
Subject: Re: [eap] EAP-SIM = fast re-auth=20 identity

 


Hi = Madjid,

  I'm not an=20 author but "other people", but maybe I can shed
some light on=20 this.  Henry can always correct and expand.

There is = nothing=20 "wrong" with the identities used during full
authentication (i.e. = either=20 permanent identity, e.g. 1IMSI @realm,
or pseudonym = identity).  The=20 "problem", if you will, is that by
definition of a full = authentication,=20 these identities require the
use of 2 or 3 GSM triplets to=20 authenticate. 

For one, this implies at least one round = trip to=20 a remote server,
i.e. the HLR/AuC where the triplets are=20 generated.  This is
usually much slower than going through = the=20 calculations
necessary to iterate the keying material locally at = the AAA=20
server.  It also means additional load on the = HLR/AuC.

The=20 second "bad" aspect is that each full EAP-SIM authentication uses =
up 2=20 or 3 triplets.  The number of triplets that can be generated by = each=20
SIM is usually limited (e.g. to 50,000) due to security = concerns. =20 This
doesn't matter too much in a GSM mobile network as=20 authentications
only use only one triplet and occur relatively=20 infrequently compared to,
for example, public WLAN.  For = EAP-SIM=20 used in a PWLAN scenario,
not only do you use up 2 or 3 triplets = per=20 authentication, the authentications
also happen much more=20 frequently.  For example every time every time
a PC gets = turned on=20 (or woken up), when a user roams between access
points etc.  = You can=20 see how you could be chewing through the available
triplets = pretty fast=20 and once you've reached the limit hard-wired into the
SIM, your = SIM is=20 dead and needs to be replaced. 

By using the fast = re-auth=20 mechanism, not only do you speed up
EAP-SIM authentications = (hence=20 "fast" :-), you also reduce the
load on the back-end server (AuC) = and=20 extend the life of your SIM.
In other words, "it's a good=20 thing".

Regards,

  Thomas



At 10:05 = 05-04-05 -0500, Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 = wrote:

Hi, =

 

I have a=20 question regarding the EAP-SIM method for fast re-authentication and = would=20 appreciate it if the authors and other people respond. Why is a = specific=20 identity used for fast re-authentication? What is the problem with = using the=20 identities that were used during the full authentication? The = initial=20 identity that is sent in EAP-Response/ Identity should not have a = problem,=20 right?

 

Thanks=20 in advance,

 

Madjid=20 = Nakhjiri

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From eap-admin@frascone.com Sat Apr 16 07:41:13 2005 Received: from mail.frascone.com (postfix@frascone.com [204.49.99.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA15319 for ; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8861C20447; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xavier (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9263320430; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:41:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Original-To: eap@frascone.com Delivered-To: eap@frascone.com Received: from localhost (xavier [127.0.0.1]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E2D20430 for ; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr002.jf.intel.com (fmr17.intel.com [134.134.136.16]) by mail.frascone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F0920428 for ; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (orsfmr101.jf.intel.com [10.7.209.17]) by orsfmr002.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-outer.mc,v 1.1 2004/09/17 17:50:56 root Exp $) with ESMTP id j3GBedvl031169; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:40:39 GMT Received: from orsmsxvs041.jf.intel.com (orsmsxvs041.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.54]) by orsfmr101.jf.intel.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/d: major-inner.mc,v 1.2 2004/09/17 18:05:01 root Exp $) with SMTP id j3GBedeC025045; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:40:39 GMT Received: from orsmsx332.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.60]) by orsmsxvs041.jf.intel.com (SAVSMTP 3.1.7.47) with SMTP id M2005041604403911363 ; Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:40:39 -0700 Received: from orsmsx401.amr.corp.intel.com ([192.168.65.207]) by orsmsx332.amr.corp.intel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:40:38 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C54279.1C28FD2B" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: EAP Key Binding Discussion Thread-Index: AcVCeRtWOI4ciDmNRQCm37df40BsZQ== From: "Walker, Jesse" To: Cc: "Paul Funk" , "Henry Ptasinski" , "Steve Emeott" , "Russ Housley" , "Nancy Winget" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Apr 2005 11:40:38.0985 (UTC) FILETIME=[1CB24B90:01C54279] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) Subject: [eap] EAP Key Binding Discussion Sender: eap-admin@frascone.com Errors-To: eap-admin@frascone.com X-BeenThere: eap@frascone.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Discussion list for EAP List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:40:37 -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 (frascone.com) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C54279.1C28FD2B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday we had a conference call to discuss 802.11r keying that included Tony Braskich, Nancy Cam-Winget, Steve Emmeot, Paul Funk, Russ Housley, Henry Ptasinski, Kapil Sood, and myself. An issue came up on the call regarding the EAP keying draft which should be discussed here. I don't know if everyone from the 802.11r group is on the EAP mailing list, so please reply to all. =20 The core problem has been discussed many times before. Let us begin by setting the context. One of the goals of the EAP keying draft is to deliver a session key that an EAP Peer and a NAS can use to secure a session between them. The EAP keying draft defines a key hierarchy expressly for this purpose. The details of the hierarchy are method specific, but for EAP-TLS it appears thusly: =20 TMS | +----+----+ | | MSK EMSK | | AAA-Key =20 The TMS is an EAP method specific "session key" constructed between the EAP Peer and the EAP Server. From this the MSK and EMSK are derived, again in an EAP method specific manner. The AAA-Key is derived from the MSK and delivered to the NAS. The AAA-Key is then used as the session key between the EAP Peer and the NAS. =20 The issue has always been how to bind the AAA-Key to this NAS and this EAP Peer for this session. The NAS needs to know that this AAA-Key is for this pair for this session, and the EAP Peer likewise needs to know the same thing. The only party that is in a position to inform both parties of this binding is the EAP Server. The EAP Peer can trust the EAP Server to make this assertion, because it has authenticated the EAP Server (at least in the case where the EAP method provides mutual authentication), and the NAS can trust the EAP server to make this assertion, because it has some channel with the EAP server presumed to be secure. =20 I think everyone agrees this issue is solved for the NAS, as mechanisms exist to allow the EAP Server to attest to the binding. It could, for instance, deliver the EAP Peer's authenticated identity Peer-ID to the NAS with the AAA-Key along with the EAP Success message; abstractly: =20 EAP Server --> NAS: EAP-Success || AAA-Key || Peer-ID =20 The NAS can then check whether it is talking with the right EAP Peer using a=20 protocol that would require the EAP Peer to assert its identity: =20 NAS --> EAP Peer: Challenge EAP Peer --> NAS: f(AAA-Key, Challenge || Peer-ID) etc. =20 The function f used in this protocol would be selected so that it would be=20 computationally infeasible for the EAP Peer to produce the right response without knowing the AAA-Key, the Challenge value, and the Peer-ID value. And if exposure of the Peer-ID to the NAS is deemed onerous, then we can certainly replace it in the above with another session specific function of Peer-ID, e.g., =20 g(TMS, Peer-ID) =20 for some suitable function g. The EAP keying draft could specify that delivery of (a function of) the Peer-ID with the session key is a requirement, and we would be done with the key binding for the NAS. =20 The issue we have never been able to resolve successfully has been how to provide the same attestation by the EAP Server of the correct NAS to the EAP Peer, i.e., how does the EAP Server assert to the EAP Peer the correct NAS to which the session key AAA-Key is bound? There is no obvious channel within EAP itself for delivering this assertion. =20 The question from our conference call is whether that the assertion could come from the key derivation. In 802.11r, for instance, we could require the NAS to advertise its NAS-ID to the EAP Peer as part of the 802.11 discovery protocol: =20 NAS --> *: NAS-ID =20 Then the EAP Peer would know the NAS-ID being asserted by the NAS. The EAP Server also knows the NAS-ID associated with an EAP transaction through the normal instantiations of the EAP transport between the NAS and the EAP Server. The EAP Server could then make the assertion of NAS identity through the AAA-Key derivation: =20 AAA-Key :=3D kdf(MSK, NAS-ID) =20 where kdf is a suitable key derivation function. The EAP Peer would perform the same key derivation. If the EAP Server delivered the AAA-Key to some other NAS other than the one that advertised NAS-ID, then the EAP Peer could detect this, because its session would fail, as the EAP Server would have used the identifier NAS-ID' for that NAS instead. =20 On first blush it appears that this kind of mechanism would finally close the binding issues with EAP keying. =20 Of course life is never that simple, because the key hierarchy above is already in place, and doesn't include the derivation AAA-Key :=3D = kdf(MSK, NAS-ID). Therefore, we would have to do something else, in order to avoid breaking already deployed equipment. A candidate might be the EMSK, which is currently unused. We could define something like =20 Bound-AAA-Key :=3D kdf(EMSK, "bound EAP session key || SID || = NAS-ID) =20 where SID is the EAP session identifier, and deliver the Bound-AAA-Key to the NAS along with the AAA-Key. We could deliver this with a session specific EAP Peer identity =20 Peer-Session-ID :=3D hash(SID || Peer-ID) =20 And we could fix kdf and hash for all EAP methods, e.g., take hash to be the first 96 bits of SHA-256, and kdf as TLS-PRF. The Bound-AAA-Key id would then be NAS-ID || Peer-Session-ID. We don't, of course, have to use the EMSK for this function, but I have used it for concreteness. =20 This mechanism requires that a NAS find some way to advertise its NAS-ID to EAP peers, and it requires a few new attributes exchanged between the NAS and EAP Server. It leaves the existing key hierarchies intact, but provides a bound key for new applications that desire a bound key. It seems to put to rest the security issues with the existing key hierarchy, by giving the EAP Server some way to attest to the EAP Peer the NAS which should possess the key. =20 What do people thing? Would this be a productive addition to the EAP keying draft? =20 -- Jesse ------_=_NextPart_001_01C54279.1C28FD2B Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday we had a conference call to discuss 802.11r keying that included Tony Braskich, Nancy Cam-Winget, Steve = Emmeot, Paul Funk, Russ Housley, Henry Ptasinski, Kapil Sood, and myself. An = issue came up on the call regarding the EAP keying draft which should be discussed = here. I don't know if everyone from the 802.11r group is on the EAP mailing = list, so please reply to all.

 

The core problem has been discussed many = times before. Let us begin by setting the context. One of the goals of the EAP = keying draft is to deliver a session key that an EAP Peer and a NAS can use to = secure a session between them. The EAP keying draft defines a key hierarchy = expressly for this purpose. The details of the hierarchy are method specific, but = for EAP-TLS it appears thusly:

 

            = TMS

           &= nbsp; |

        = +----+----+

        = |         |

       = MSK       EMSK

        = |

        = |

     = AAA-Key

 

The TMS is an EAP method specific = "session key" constructed between the EAP Peer and the EAP Server. From this = the MSK and EMSK are derived, again in an EAP method specific manner. The = AAA-Key is derived from the MSK and delivered to the NAS. The AAA-Key is then = used as the session key between the EAP Peer and the NAS.

 

The issue has always been how to bind the = AAA-Key to this NAS and this EAP Peer for this session. The NAS needs to know that = this AAA-Key is for this <NAS, EAP Peer> pair for this session, and the = EAP Peer likewise needs to know the same thing. The only party that is in a position to inform both parties of this binding is the EAP Server. The = EAP Peer can trust the EAP Server to make this assertion, because it has = authenticated the EAP Server (at least in the case where the EAP method provides = mutual authentication), and the NAS can trust the EAP server to make this = assertion, because it has some channel with the EAP server presumed to be = secure.

 

I think everyone agrees this issue is solved = for the NAS, as mechanisms exist to allow the EAP Server to attest to the = binding. It could, for instance, deliver the EAP Peer's authenticated identity = Peer-ID to the NAS with the AAA-Key along with the EAP Success message; = abstractly:

 

      EAP Server = --> NAS:  EAP-Success || AAA-Key || Peer-ID

 

The NAS can then check whether it is talking = with the right EAP Peer using a

protocol that would require the EAP Peer to = assert its identity:

 

      NAS --> EAP = Peer:  Challenge

      EAP Peer = --> NAS:  f(AAA-Key, Challenge || Peer-ID)

      = etc.

 

The function f used in this protocol would be selected so that it would be

computationally infeasible for the EAP Peer = to produce the right response without knowing the AAA-Key, the Challenge = value, and the Peer-ID value. And if exposure of the Peer-ID to the NAS is = deemed onerous, then we can certainly replace it in the above with another = session specific function of Peer-ID, e.g.,

 

     g(TMS, = Peer-ID)

 

for some suitable function g. The EAP keying = draft could specify that delivery of (a function of) the Peer-ID with the = session key is a requirement, and we would be done with the key binding for the = NAS.

 

The issue we have never been able to resolve successfully has been how to provide the same attestation by the EAP = Server of the correct NAS to the EAP Peer, i.e., how does the EAP Server assert to = the EAP Peer the correct NAS to which the session key AAA-Key is bound? = There is no obvious channel within EAP itself for delivering this = assertion.

 

The question from our conference call is = whether that the assertion could come from the key derivation. In 802.11r, for instance, we could require the NAS to advertise its NAS-ID to the EAP = Peer as part of the 802.11 discovery protocol:

 

     NAS --> *:  = NAS-ID

 

Then the EAP Peer would know the NAS-ID being asserted by the NAS. The EAP Server also knows the NAS-ID associated = with an EAP transaction through the normal instantiations of the EAP transport = between the NAS and the EAP Server. The EAP Server could then make the assertion = of NAS identity through the AAA-Key derivation:

 

     AAA-Key :=3D = kdf(MSK, NAS-ID)

 

where kdf is a suitable key derivation = function. The EAP Peer would perform the same key derivation. If the EAP Server = delivered the AAA-Key to some other NAS other than the one that advertised NAS-ID, = then the EAP Peer could detect this, because its session would fail, as the EAP = Server would have used the identifier NAS-ID' for that NAS = instead.

 

On first blush it appears that this kind of mechanism would finally close the binding issues with EAP = keying.

 

Of course life is never that simple, because = the key hierarchy above is already in place, and doesn't include the derivation = AAA-Key :=3D kdf(MSK, NAS-ID). Therefore, we would have to do something else, in = order to avoid breaking already deployed equipment. A candidate might be the = EMSK, which is currently unused. We could define something like

 

     Bound-AAA-Key :=3D = kdf(EMSK, "bound EAP session key || SID || NAS-ID)

 

where SID is the EAP session identifier, and = deliver the Bound-AAA-Key to the NAS along with the AAA-Key. We could deliver = this with a session specific EAP Peer identity

 

     Peer-Session-ID :=3D = hash(SID || Peer-ID)

 

And we could fix kdf and hash for all EAP = methods, e.g., take hash to be the first 96 bits of SHA-256, and kdf as TLS-PRF. = The Bound-AAA-Key id would then be NAS-ID || Peer-Session-ID. We don't, of = course, have to use the EMSK for this function, but I have used it for = concreteness.

 

This mechanism requires that a NAS find some = way to advertise its NAS-ID to EAP peers, and it requires a few new attributes exchanged between the NAS and EAP Server. It leaves the existing key hierarchies intact, but provides a bound key for new applications that = desire a bound key. It seems to put to rest the security issues with the existing = key hierarchy, by giving the EAP Server some way to attest to the EAP Peer = the NAS which should possess the key.

 

What do people thing? Would this be a = productive addition to the EAP keying draft?

 

-- Jesse

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