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preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch 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protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TuKIAO76dMLHlyDk9m8MXpGyqO22pu5fH" X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.75.234.40, hkidc-vpn-client-234-40.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: bgl-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Emu] change of venue: onboarding side meeting X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 05:03:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --TuKIAO76dMLHlyDk9m8MXpGyqO22pu5fH Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MtGMF70yDx9KKs87lkN0VHAMtBNBHuCJE"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "opsawg@ietf.org" , emu@ietf.org, Dave Thaler , Kent Watsen , Anima WG , Michael Richardson , Suresh Krishnan , Dan Harkins , "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" Message-ID: Subject: change of venue: onboarding side meeting --MtGMF70yDx9KKs87lkN0VHAMtBNBHuCJE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US As we seem to have a lot of interest in the topic of onboarding, we are at risk of overflowing the very small room we were assigned.=C2=A0 Theref= ore, the side meeting will now take place immediately after OPSAWG in Chitlada= 2. This meeting is intended as a discussion about whatever common architectural blocks we can find between mechanisms such as ANIMA BRSKI, DPP, EAP-NOOB, and others. Regards, Eliot --MtGMF70yDx9KKs87lkN0VHAMtBNBHuCJE-- --TuKIAO76dMLHlyDk9m8MXpGyqO22pu5fH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAlvhIJIACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejPmSgf/d6uh+50wu1KEOOyGjLsJQg9VjEk2Suanh4/K4Z9i5VmnYzmkpMqRrDEu b7znfMkaorC9bPA8wcLG+aU32ATnc6HCPLEOl8MqCuKDuuRFcNQxk33oIdUNeLMD QpjmjjobjTU/asZGwP1zjLgRi3PoR3gGY2vwOyb+Lo77a3MLprbtyRXdjV1OjS86 8fuC0XUUgi03P+SA4UiSpymEozEUjGr2VMZTGT/Hkl+R+7mweTIjPKIbSPlApbxe +B26nOMbQovnceizBIG6U7LxkUAQnYBsfg2GXe+a27njXyft5C4HKAn7lVtAZu1C OPOU8c+InzMjFi1hCKCF+N6Bh5oluQ== =dI6o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TuKIAO76dMLHlyDk9m8MXpGyqO22pu5fH-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 00:01:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4554130E3B; 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07 Nov 2018 08:01:08 +0000 Received: from [10.75.233.93] (hkidc-vpn-client-233-93.cisco.com [10.75.233.93]) by bgl-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id wA78173p030748; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 08:01:07 GMT To: "opsawg@ietf.org" , Anima WG , emu@ietf.org From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: <96646e6c-a906-9761-76e8-76d302a4ad44@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 15:01:05 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="b9Q0qgw4UFncgcDWK7QoHfkXsWgEpWKRR" X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.75.233.93, hkidc-vpn-client-233-93.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: bgl-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Emu] side meeting on IoT onboarding X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 08:01:22 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --b9Q0qgw4UFncgcDWK7QoHfkXsWgEpWKRR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Laa2FpUGigXrhRxdFjMqxRszgO4Z6SIwm"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "opsawg@ietf.org" , Anima WG , emu@ietf.org Message-ID: <96646e6c-a906-9761-76e8-76d302a4ad44@cisco.com> Subject: side meeting on IoT onboarding --Laa2FpUGigXrhRxdFjMqxRszgO4Z6SIwm Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B44B2BE044C8033AFD188299" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B44B2BE044C8033AFD188299 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, Thanks to those 30 or so people who participated in a side meeting just after OPSAWG on IoT onboarding.=C2=A0 There was pretty clear agreement th= at there is at least some fragmentation occurring in onboarding solutions, leading to some confusion amongst some of the players.=C2=A0 In some case= s, like consumer, some didn't care that much, but everyone seemed to see the problem in enterprise and industrial.=C2=A0 A few notes: * =E2=80=9COnboarding=E2=80=9D means different things at different laye= rs. As we move forward we are primarily thinking about network onboarding here, but if the credential used for network onboarding can be used for application onboarding, that's a nice feature. * This matter spans multiple standards organizations.=C2=A0 In the meet= ing yesterday we had participants from at least five, for example. * We agreed to try to flesh out a wiki that talks about all the different mechanisms.=C2=A0 Some of these are cataloged in various places, and some are not.=C2=A0 We are not at this point limiting ourselves to just IP. * We also want to try to articulate architectural requirements. * As we build out the inventory of mechanisms we will seek to identify common architectural components. * We'll try to get far along on the wiki for a December conference call just to see how well we did, and to talk about next steps. * The activity is entirely open.=C2=A0 I've asked for a mailing list to= be created, and I have created a github repository known, funnily enough, as "iot-onboarding". If you're interested in this activity, please feel free to join the mailing list when it is announced or otherwise add to the repository.=C2=A0= If you were in the room and want to add your views, great. Eliot --------------B44B2BE044C8033AFD188299 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi everyone,

Thanks to those 30 or so people who participated in a side meeting just after OPSAWG on IoT onboarding.=C2=A0 There was pretty= clear agreement that there is at least some fragmentation occurring in onboarding solutions, leading to some confusion amongst some of the players.=C2=A0 In some cases, like consumer, so= me didn't care that much, but everyone seemed to see the problem in enterprise and industrial.=C2=A0 A few notes:

  • =E2=80=9COnboarding=E2=80=9D means different things at differen= t layers. As we move forward we are primarily thinking about network onboarding here, but if the credential used for network onboarding can be used for application onboarding, that's a nice feature.
  • This matter spans multiple standards organizations.=C2=A0 In th= e meeting yesterday we had participants from at least five, for example.
  • We agreed to try to flesh out a wiki that talks about all the different mechanisms.=C2=A0 Some of these are cataloged in variou= s places, and some are not.=C2=A0 We are not at this point limiting= ourselves to just IP.
  • We also want to try to articulate architectural requirements.
  • As we build out the inventory of mechanisms we will seek to identify common architectural components.
  • We'll try to get far along on the wiki for a December conference call just to see how well we did, and to talk about next steps.
  • The activity is entirely open.=C2=A0 I've asked for a mailing l= ist to be created, and I have created a github repository known, funnily enough, as "iot-onboarding".

If you're interested in this activity, please feel free to join the mailing list when it is announced or otherwise add to the repository.=C2=A0 If you were in the room and want to add your view= s, great.

Eliot


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At the IETF 103 meeting there was support in the room= to adopt draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt as a working group item as the bas= is to add perfect forward secrecy to EAP-AKA.=C2=A0 This message is to conf= irm that consensus.=C2=A0 If you do not support adoption of draft-arkko-eap= -aka-pfs-03.txt as WG item please say so by 2359UTC on 30 November 2018 (an= d say why).


Thanks,
=
Joe
--000000000000ba2e9c057a1e9dae-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 19:14:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E54C1130E43 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:14:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MyTUgngVRAMp for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFC00130E35 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id m5so588033qka.9 for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:14:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2Gj/vY958fiGWd02hLPJqqwM7Jh3ij3ft9C/+zx1a64=; b=Q0kXo6b75UI2kLF+eauTdnpUw8ouWIpBgSHCEP5hgtmDN18rOQkkOprl1hlAL1qWZC VmBt27x5jMFrW7tNKOgwAwTbQbryvDRYIXN82xgows+IgKKRbzLMAIvlF4JhngS+XZzZ Q29jxdYVuztyDUpiqnA2cIdLzBpCa83MxcBfWYi8iryzY8DMiJU1usATOuB+wYT1zyA0 ZQueF36gFSvWmRlLUiOfNhBCtY9lqFWj+Be76ChafbRV4gqUIleyH45qUcOcMbFDlxc5 wNvQw6cnFnewBDOW+wwm0+eqvy+65VA2fUrzHzXubIGwVWzQHsr/aQ1lIEqeOC+fqyAR NHJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2Gj/vY958fiGWd02hLPJqqwM7Jh3ij3ft9C/+zx1a64=; b=SutlXTmOJEaC3Nir+0zmdVhME0EoBBGcFZYyLUbFVxDiOAbueJJrh6+cWxPGfi36xE beMqU5XenUMNaMqVJLWVovF2sXHPR29QAH44dscI463Zo9sCUu1BYIxeMsk99Dfc1lhl GK68iK8lOclBP8xPVMaQ8N8vSce2pIvVpBtuQ49BGybKv7As7QgXJ3JswiqTUAYCKOij tWnVESiqiFpc+ssuMkg9+fLyNCVQShkxUekFIIDr/WIKaxgTo6ArERRKsqW6Qlx+dHnc /3rEbl8GdYMiQA7u1xC/O22qriXSxsL+AYBePfjGLsYHcjSGI+Iv6A/j6KJ+cX5ONsma gsCg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLLQfy8qXa1Lj8oXUGuZP17U7mhacL7UEQAm74HJFNPsQvJASr2 nSi+O630FRuXkVk0hHP+j4dyxA+sVyB3mVZ7KTCGrX3SheXOBg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5cGaO16Gsxoxp/LtLEglzbHQUuVPJastLY84COIldBOkHAu5E1RpIwpAS/zqHlU/3XlHJBw5tAKLmCXEB1sPno= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:8003:: with SMTP id 3mr2857171qva.129.1541646862253; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:14:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Joseph Salowey Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:14:10 +0700 Message-ID: To: emu@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000981bc9057a1ea1d0" Archived-At: Subject: [Emu] WGLC for draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:14:26 -0000 --000000000000981bc9057a1ea1d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is the working group last call for the draft revision of "Improved Extensible Authentication Protocol Method for 3rd Generation Authentication and Key Agreement (EAP-AKA')" available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis/ Please review the document and send your comments to the list by 2359 UTC on 30 November 2018. Thanks, Mohit and Joe --000000000000981bc9057a1ea1d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is the working group last call for the draft rev= ision of "Improved Extensible Authentication Protocol Method for 3rd G= eneration Authentication and Key Agreement (EAP-AKA')" available a= t=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-emu-rfc54= 48bis/

Please revi= ew the document and send your comments to the list by 2359
UTC on 30 Nov= ember 2018.

Thanks,

Mohit and J= oe
--000000000000981bc9057a1ea1d0-- From nobody Wed Nov 7 19:17:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietf.org Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2602A130E48; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:17:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: , , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154164702714.26368.10000138772819307120.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:17:07 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Emu] The EMU WG has placed draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:17:07 -0000 The EMU WG has placed draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs in state Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Joseph Salowey) The document is available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs/ From nobody Wed Nov 7 19:23:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD99130F23 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:23:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aVhmPYOqYDnJ for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:23:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D9F8130ED8 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2018 19:23:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id e4so24303971qkh.6 for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:23:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ssWNkpC6+g01JPB84r2ooM6P6ykm9IWfU3wu9jG/4mw=; b=U8JVPAHHM6S44U4mRnuK7QhaqayZg7DlaAOm2tAGzBy44/XZsUXEF7kOhKDUe7CiKU mibIyrYtlL7kSYRta+MCojCZyOfQamijF/3TsvB/iZeCB7VwOEvcuk+t9wkgggz3TClO EzgmYn+seK/hDQY5QHCgzxhumSSSizgabM9/Ed8tzHf4dH1UQbdRxFqRqvTb70FMj0qy a9fURd/rrWCAgB4K7+3Wad0JL9wk6jy5jve7lYOKjvPVTfKDp9/OSL1b29akKTyd39Ea PsXmIgj5sv0/Xjdkqv+JEl8R5lyEc6ziyCl+ZrkbewpJlnU4YzwFetqbusiGkP7Dgva4 KMCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ssWNkpC6+g01JPB84r2ooM6P6ykm9IWfU3wu9jG/4mw=; b=q8POCnB7oaInJReArD4XuhzmL/A9CUPs7EZ7Dq/SwPuShiaXiZ0CX++cJXipJif2vn xcCr7GUvs4/kGpSAwUQhXcHnCaFH9cgMcDYlIZLfKCYveKlt8VEaaF5girj6d6OLx5lw daYntQdZ2IUjiwfppeQGvW1CZ60+0YBU9Rybd0M1V7HcDiXrGPfJHoPEploIDnDkk0iM PQg/F8xXRl4Mai6kMcwBQ1puCp03p5JjN3Nam6+wDjbvRNFCzN4nH2aL/bulloHF3TR1 BQuLKbFfhTjnqbeRymoDt8v+h32LvDUKgnnMcTnEk7yfJk754ILV5USFM0TGw84bLAiv y4Ug== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJd2efyEsS6zXHf/Y4Zec4PyWBv16sEwe6ngG3Zni3F/jsEGrDc nTKg7PtxCrR+NB/Rkv9X/v86g4h/HXxI1u9q4zDVG9rk1uoepQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5diMYImD32pbgiSzoXE8MyXXHuewhcsh910HpgzhrCr3kPjexuRtbnaOo11dP+B1wC5H8u6JaS3he0AWU0ZpF8= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:bfd4:: with SMTP id u20mr2839517qvj.113.1541647416587; Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:23:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Joseph Salowey Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:23:24 +0700 Message-ID: To: emu@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a2a7d7057a1ec2bb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] WG adoption call for draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 03:23:45 -0000 --000000000000a2a7d7057a1ec2bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Please note there are IPR disclosure for draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?submit=draft&id=draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs . Thanks, Joe On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 10:13 AM Joseph Salowey wrote: > At the IETF 103 meeting there was support in the room to adopt > draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt as a working group item as the basis to add > perfect forward secrecy to EAP-AKA. This message is to confirm that > consensus. If you do not support adoption of > draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt as WG item please say so by 2359UTC on 30 > November 2018 (and say why). > > The draft is available at > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt. > > Thanks, > > Joe > --000000000000a2a7d7057a1ec2bb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please note there are IPR disclosure for= =C2=A0draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt=C2=A0available at=C2=A0<= a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?submit=3Ddraft&id=3D= draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?submit=3D= draft&id=3Ddraft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs.

Thanks,

Joe

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 10:13 AM Joseph Salowey &= lt;joe@salowey.net> wrote:
At the IETF 103 mee= ting there was support in the room to adopt draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt = as a working group item as the basis to add perfect forward secrecy to EAP-= AKA.=C2=A0 This message is to confirm that consensus.=C2=A0 If you do not s= upport adoption of draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt as WG item please say so = by 2359UTC on 30 November 2018 (and say why).

Thanks,

Joe
--000000000000a2a7d7057a1ec2bb-- From nobody Fri Nov 9 19:36:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1B3130DD7; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:36:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aof8E10cQ2CT; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:36:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB786128D0C; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jude (43.249.105.152) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1347.2; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 19:31:58 -0800 From: Jim Schaad To: CC: References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 10:36:42 +0700 Message-ID: <023401d478a6$9b951510$d2bf3f30$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQJ9P87+lstctHCuW7y8wfK64D/Fz6P2wZSg Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [43.249.105.152] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] WGLC for draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 03:36:58 -0000 Any issues that I have here might have already been raised and = discussed. If so just not that and ignore. Section 3.4 - I am curious why you did not make the hash function a = property of the HKDF function rather than making it a hard coded value. = I would kind of expect that section 3.4 (top) and 3.4.1 would be part of = the KDF function and not stand alone values. I am not sure if I think = that the MAC function should also be defined by this as well. Doing so = would allow for an easier jump to SHA3 at a later date if needed. =20 Other than that question the document is clear and the EMU parts seem to = be correct. I cannot comment on any of the 3GPP parts. Jim From nobody Mon Nov 12 18:10:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED401271FF for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 18:10:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_HK_NAME_DR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BAFTTrzo1V0B for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 18:10:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.katezarealty.com (mail.katezarealty.com [104.168.158.213]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C19F124408 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 18:10:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mail.katezarealty.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192BE37408CB for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 02:10:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at katezarealty.com Received: from mail.katezarealty.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.katezarealty.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id xQ7-7Q-FnvRu for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from Maxs-MBP.hsd1.co.comcast.net (c-71-196-235-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net [71.196.235.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.katezarealty.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AEC69374084E for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:10:29 -0500 (EST) To: emu@ietf.org References: From: "Dr. Pala" Organization: OpenCA Labs Message-ID: <45e7325b-f5d1-c4b8-edb2-3e39d03989fe@openca.org> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 05:52:35 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms030903020006020200060002" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] WG adoption call for draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 02:10:39 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030903020006020200060002 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6ADB7F64466D81C7CB546995" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6ADB7F64466D81C7CB546995 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I am in favor of addressing the issue of PFS in 3GPP authentication - it = is important work that moves cellular network authentication towards=20 more modern approaches and more compatible with IETF technologies. This said, I am concerned about the fact that the IPR is not marked as=20 Royalty-Free, therefore I am not in favor of adopting it if the IPR=20 restrictions (fees) are not removed (please let me know if I am=20 mis-interpreting the IPR declaration). I think I missed this point=20 (maybe the jet lag, but it might not have been clear to the room). As a possible way forward (if IPR restrictions are not modified), we=20 could work on something different that is not encumbered by patents=20 restrictions. However, for this, we would need to see the specific=20 claims of the application... Cheers, Max On 11/7/18 10:23 PM, Joseph Salowey wrote: > Please note there are IPR disclosure for=20 > draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt=20 > =C2=A0available= at=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?submit=3Ddraft&id=3Ddraft-arkk= o-eap-aka-pfs. > > Thanks, > > Joe > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 10:13 AM Joseph Salowey > wrote: > > At the IETF 103 meeting there was support in the room to adopt > draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt as a working group item as the > basis to add perfect forward secrecy to EAP-AKA.=C2=A0 This message= is > to confirm that consensus.=C2=A0 If you do not support adoption of > draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt as WG item please say so by 2359UTC > on 30 November 2018 (and say why). > > The draft is available at > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt. > > Thanks, > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > Emu mailing list > Emu@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu --=20 Best Regards, Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D. OpenCA Labs Director OpenCA Logo --------------6ADB7F64466D81C7CB546995 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------08214AC62286F0484D2C96E4" --------------08214AC62286F0484D2C96E4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

I am in favor of addressing the issue of PFS in 3GPP authentication - it is important work that moves cellular network authentication towards more modern approaches and more compatible with IETF technologies.

This said, I am concerned about the fact that the IPR is not marked as Royalty-Free, therefore I am not in favor of adopting it if the IPR restrictions (fees) are not removed (please let me know if I am mis-interpreting the IPR declaration). I think I missed this point (maybe the jet lag, but it might not have been clear to the room).

As a possible way forward (if IPR restrictions are not modified), we could work on something different that is not encumbered by patents restrictions. However, for this, we would need to see the specific claims of the application...

Cheers,
Max


On 11/7/18 10:23 PM, Joseph Salowey wrote:
Please note there are IPR disclosure for=C2=A0draft-arkko-eap-ak= a-pfs-03.txt=C2=A0available at=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/sea= rch/?submit=3Ddraft&id=3Ddraft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs.

Thanks,

Joe

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 10:13 AM Joseph Salowey <joe@salowey.net> wrote:
At the IETF 103 meeting there was support in the room to adopt draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt as a working group item as the basis to add perfect forward secrecy to EAP-AKA.=C2=A0 This message is to confirm that consensus.=C2= =A0 If you do not support adoption of draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs-03.txt as WG item please say so by 2359UTC on 30 November 2018 (and say why).


Thanks,

Joe

____________________________=
___________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ie=
tf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
--
Best Regards,
Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
OpenCA Labs Director
3D"OpenCA
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"EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 09:39:04 -0000 SGnCoGFsbCwNCg0KVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW5nIGluIHRoZSBFTVUgc2Vzc2lv biBhdCBJRVRGIDEwMy4gQSBzcGVjaWFsIA0KdGhhbmsgeW91IHRvIEppbSBmb3Igc2VydmluZ8Kg YXPCoHRoZcKgamFiYmVywqBzY3JpYmUuDQoNCk1pbnV0ZXPCoGZyb23CoHRoZcKgRU1VwqBzZXNz aW9uwqBhdMKgSUVURsKgMTAzIGhhdmXCoG5vd8KgYmVlbsKgdXBsb2FkZWQ6DQpodHRwczovL2Rh dGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL21lZXRpbmcvMTAzL21hdGVyaWFscy9taW51dGVzLTEwMy1lbXUt MDANCg0KUGxlYXNlwqByZXBvcnTCoGFuecKgaXNzdWVzwqBieSBOb3ZlbWJlciAyMSzCoDIwMTgu DQoNCkpvZcKgYW5kwqBNb2hpdA0KDQo= From nobody Tue Nov 13 06:40:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCF5130DDC for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 06:39:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EoEOTQ_N1eTY for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 06:39:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.networkradius.com (mail.networkradius.com [62.210.147.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72230127332 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 06:39:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.20.150] (unknown [72.137.155.194]) by mail.networkradius.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 59EAFEF; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:39:54 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Alan DeKok In-Reply-To: <45e7325b-f5d1-c4b8-edb2-3e39d03989fe@openca.org> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 09:39:53 -0500 Cc: emu@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <39E1238A-2E39-4FF4-89C3-2B549C1EA84F@deployingradius.com> References: <45e7325b-f5d1-c4b8-edb2-3e39d03989fe@openca.org> To: "Dr. Pala" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] WG adoption call for draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:39:58 -0000 > On Nov 10, 2018, at 5:52 AM, Dr. Pala wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > I am in favor of addressing the issue of PFS in 3GPP authentication - = it is important work that moves cellular network authentication towards = more modern approaches and more compatible with IETF technologies. >=20 > This said, I am concerned about the fact that the IPR is not marked as = Royalty-Free, therefore I am not in favor of adopting it if the IPR = restrictions (fees) are not removed (please let me know if I am = mis-interpreting the IPR declaration). I think I missed this point = (maybe the jet lag, but it might not have been clear to the room).=20 >=20 > As a possible way forward (if IPR restrictions are not modified), we = could work on something different that is not encumbered by patents = restrictions. However, for this, we would need to see the specific = claims of the application... I share these concerns. Alan DeKok. From nobody Tue Nov 13 21:06:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08DA128CFD for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 21:06:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jxDW3XMO3Th3 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 21:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30CD1127B92 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 21:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB71300A9E for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:06:24 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id oFGgk0LXFpNZ for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:06:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from dhcp-9bbe.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9bbe.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.155.190]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2CD573002C7 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:06:22 -0500 (EST) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:06:19 -0500 To: emu@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Emu] draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis-03 X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:06:28 -0000 I agreed to review this document at IETF 103. Here are my comments. Document: draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis-03 Reviewer: Russ Housley Review Date: 2018-11-13 Summary: Almost Ready Major Concerns: The Abstract is essentially unchanged from RFC 5448. I think it would be better to provide the history of AKA and AKA' in a sentence or two and then tell the big changes that appear here. I found the part about SHA-1 especially concerning until I realized that was left over from the RFC 5448 Abstract text. I think the Introduction should be updated to provide a perspective for a new implementer. I suggest something like this: - 3GPP uses AKA' natively and as an EAP method. - EAP-AKA originally defined in [RFC4187] - EAP-AKA' defined in [RFC5448], and uses KDF in [TS-3GPP.33.402] - This update supports identifiers needed for 5G -- This version of the EAP-AKA' specification obsoletes RFC 5448 -- List of the changes made by this update - Negotiation of the various versions Section 3.2 says: AT_KDF This is set to 24. And, then Section 3.3 says: AT_KDF set to 1 The second one is shorthand for the KDF identifier carried in the attribute. I think that you should not use this shorthand. I stumbled on it when reading. I suggest: AT_KDF parameter has the value 1 Section 5.3 says: Given the choice between these two types of identifiers, two areas need further specification in EAP-AKA' to ensure that different implementations understand each other and stay interoperable: This should be reworded. These do not need future specification. Those details are in the document. I think it would be better to say: Given the choice between these two types of identifiers, EAP-AKA' ensure interoperability by: Minor Concerns: Section 3: s/EAP-AKA' is a new EAP method/EAP-AKA' is an EAP method/ Section 3 does not seem to be different from RFC 5448. Would it be better to list the changes from RFC 4187 (AKA to AKA') and then the changes from RFC 5448 (AKA' to this update)? Nits: The document uses "key generation" and "key derivation". If they are different, please add an explanation somewhere. If they are the same, please use one term throughout. The document uses "byte" and "octet". Please use one term throughout. From nobody Tue Nov 13 21:10:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6AA12872C for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 21:10:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ickf838_l1dc for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 21:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25915127B92 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2018 21:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC67366019D; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:10:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Twzm-P8hVrGR; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:10:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5AB366012A; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:10:44 +0200 (EET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 06:10:44 +0100 Cc: emu@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2A07255B-0D09-49DE-846E-51392F679D8A@piuha.net> References: To: Russ Housley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis-03 X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:10:49 -0000 Thanks for your review, Russ. I will look carefully into your comments. But for starters, you make a = good point about the abstract/introduction. And obviously the language = used to refer to the AT_KDF attribute number vs. value needs to be = precise.=20 Jari From nobody Wed Nov 14 00:00:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78359130DD9 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:00:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uh4SnYME3IX3 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFB3C1293FB for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 00:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9645A300AA4 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 03:00:38 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id eoJwzP27OBIm for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 03:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from dhcp-9bbe.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9bbe.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.155.190]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D9904300A06; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 03:00:35 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <1c250949-42b0-eeb7-0d3e-c6504517d119@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 03:00:33 -0500 Cc: "emu@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2E4F0BA7-8372-4F10-A0D2-072B861857D2@vigilsec.com> References: <1c250949-42b0-eeb7-0d3e-c6504517d119@ericsson.com> To: Mohit Sethi X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] Minutes from EMU @ IETF103 X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:00:47 -0000 Concern: Jari: Need feedback. See this as WG document? We might be able to stick = this in and have affect on organizations that want to spy on. We might = actually get this deployed if .=20 The end of the sentence is missing... Nit: Russ: MAC is dependent on the based AKA authentication. s/based/base/ s/AKA/AKA'/ > On Nov 13, 2018, at 4:38 AM, Mohit Sethi M = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > Thank you for participating in the EMU session at IETF 103. A special=20= > thank you to Jim for serving as the jabber scribe. >=20 > Minutes from the EMU session at IETF 103 have now been uploaded: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/minutes-103-emu-00 >=20 > Please report any issues by November 21, 2018. >=20 > Joe and Mohit >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Emu mailing list > Emu@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu From nobody Wed Nov 14 04:20:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietf.org Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A853E126F72; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 04:19:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: emu@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.88.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: emu@ietf.org Message-ID: <154219799965.19078.11936051888979855763@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 04:19:59 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Emu] I-D Action: draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03.txt X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:20:00 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the EAP Method Update WG of the IETF. Title : Using EAP-TLS with TLS 1.3 Authors : John Mattsson Mohit Sethi Filename : draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2018-11-14 Abstract: This document specifies the use of EAP-TLS with TLS 1.3 while remaining backwards compatible with existing implementations of EAP- TLS. TLS 1.3 provides significantly improved security, privacy, and reduced latency when compared to earlier versions of TLS. EAP-TLS with TLS 1.3 provides significantly improved protection against pervasive monitoring by mandating use of privacy. This document updates RFC 5216. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Nov 14 04:50:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF7A124408 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 04:50:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.77 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.77 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.47, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=GYqP7EE0; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=X3rfIJd0 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 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IHdpdGggZXhpc3RpbmcgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zIG9mIEVBUC0NCiAgICAgICBUTFMuICBUTFMg MS4zIHByb3ZpZGVzIHNpZ25pZmljYW50bHkgaW1wcm92ZWQgc2VjdXJpdHksIHByaXZhY3ksIGFu ZA0KICAgICAgIHJlZHVjZWQgbGF0ZW5jeSB3aGVuIGNvbXBhcmVkIHRvIGVhcmxpZXIgdmVyc2lv bnMgb2YgVExTLiAgRUFQLVRMUw0KICAgICAgIHdpdGggVExTIDEuMyBwcm92aWRlcyBzaWduaWZp Y2FudGx5IGltcHJvdmVkIHByb3RlY3Rpb24gYWdhaW5zdA0KICAgICAgIHBlcnZhc2l2ZSBtb25p dG9yaW5nIGJ5IG1hbmRhdGluZyB1c2Ugb2YgcHJpdmFjeS4gIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQNCiAgICAg ICB1cGRhdGVzIFJGQyA1MjE2Lg0KICAgIA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAN CiAgICANCiAgICANCiAgICBQbGVhc2Ugbm90ZSB0aGF0IGl0IG1heSB0YWtlIGEgY291cGxlIG9m IG1pbnV0ZXMgZnJvbSB0aGUgdGltZSBvZiBzdWJtaXNzaW9uDQogICAgdW50aWwgdGhlIGh0bWxp emVkIHZlcnNpb24gYW5kIGRpZmYgYXJlIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhdCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy4NCiAg ICANCiAgICBUaGUgSUVURiBTZWNyZXRhcmlhdA0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAgIF9fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAgRW11IG1haWxpbmcgbGlz dA0KICAgIEVtdUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vZW11DQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Nov 14 05:37:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96BB7130E66 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:37:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nnh5cT5S-JDK for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.networkradius.com (mail.networkradius.com [62.210.147.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154DF130E5A for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.46.58] (198-84-237-221.cpe.teksavvy.com [198.84.237.221]) by mail.networkradius.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9B2C8370; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:37:49 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Alan DeKok In-Reply-To: <1C51B2F8-5635-4C36-B657-05A69B928509@hpe.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:37:48 -0500 Cc: John Mattsson , "emu@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0BCDE1A6-1AFB-42E4-BF99-DB4935E78FDE@deployingradius.com> References: <1C51B2F8-5635-4C36-B657-05A69B928509@hpe.com> To: "Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03.txt X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:37:54 -0000 On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:16 AM, Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security) = wrote: >=20 > Making it mandatory to use an anonymous NAI will be a huge issue in = enterprise where the infrastructure, device and enterprise identity is = owned by the enterprise. There is no proxy or third party provider. I don't see that in Section 2.1.4. It says: ... a client supporting TLS 1.3 MUST NOT send its username in cleartext in the Identity Response. It is RECOMMENDED to use anonymous NAIs, but other solutions where the username is encrypted MAY be used. So username *hiding* his mandatory. But the method is left to the = implementation. > Seeing "anonymous@enterprise.com" across all network infrastructure is = not going to be acceptable. In what context will you "see" that across all network infrastructure? Since this is the enterprise, you control your own RADIUS server. You = can associate the *inner* identity with the users session. There is no = requirement that you only look at the outer identity for tracking user = sessions. This tying of inner / outer identities is common in ISP and = enterprise environments. In the absence of specific reasons behind this statement, I just don't = see how anonymous identities are a problem for anyone, anywhere. If I had to guess, I'd say that the problem comes from *other* devices = on the network. Devices that snoop EAP, but aren't involved in the = actual authentication. The solution there would be to have the local = RADIUS server talk to the local snooping device. Or, the local snooping = device looks at MAC addresses instead of EAP identities. And then uses = the RADIUS DB to correlate MAC address to EAP inner identity.=20 > Why not provide a flag that can be passed in the EAP exchange from the = supplicant that enables this behavior so users with full control of = their device can use this while enterprise or other use cases that = require real identity can configure the supplicant to provide a = different flag? Given the horrific nature of implementations and inter-operability, I = would oppose yet another point of negotiation. It does not add anything = IMHO. And, it makes implementations and inter-operability more complex. Alan DeKok. 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CiAgICBFbXUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgRW11QGlldGYub3JnDQogICAgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9lbXUNCiAgICANCg0K From nobody Wed Nov 14 06:32:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1F0129619 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 06:32:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29fD8e2EAFEx for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 06:32:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.networkradius.com (mail.networkradius.com [62.210.147.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0F01276D0 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 06:32:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.46.58] (198-84-237-221.cpe.teksavvy.com [198.84.237.221]) by mail.networkradius.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4456C370; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 14:32:31 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Alan DeKok In-Reply-To: <6A08279F-DDC1-4C33-96CB-AA32FF0BB281@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:32:29 -0500 Cc: "emu@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <22C328FD-7CD3-4B53-824E-BCE6A5F7D939@deployingradius.com> References: <6A08279F-DDC1-4C33-96CB-AA32FF0BB281@ericsson.com> To: John Mattsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] EAP-TLS 1.3 - TLS extensions and mechanisms X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 14:32:34 -0000 On Nov 14, 2018, at 9:04 AM, John Mattsson = wrote: > draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03 adds: >=20 > "The use of Certificate Status Requests to determine the current = status of the EAP server's certificate is RECOMMENDED." I think that's good. > For EAP-TLS where the peer often does not have internet connection = OCSP stapling is often by far the most appropriate mechanism. Is it time = to make Certificate Status Requests (OCSP stapling) mandatory to = implement for EAP-TLS with TLS 1.3?=20 >=20 > My view would be yes, OSCP stapling is solving a lot of issues with = revocation, especially for EAP-TLS. I think OCSP stapling should be = mandatory to support and maybe also mandatory to use... I don't see major issues with it. > - Fragmentation due to large certificates > ------------------------------------------------------ >=20 > draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03 says: >=20 > "EAP-TLS peers and servers SHOULD support and use the Cached = Information Extension as specified in [RFC7924]." >=20 > draft-ms-emu-eaptlscert-01 says: >=20 > "The extension however necessitates a successful full handshake before = any caching. This extension can be useful when, for example, when a = successful authentication between an EAP peer and EAP server has = occurred in the home network." >=20 > As fragmentation of large certificates is a large problem in EAP-TLS = deployments, would it make sense to mandate support and or use of RFC = 7924 when TLS 1.3 is used? I would tend to agree. The only caveat is that RFC 7924 requires the completion of a full = certificate exchange before caching can take place. This requirement = means that the handshake may not, in fact, complete, unless some other = mechanism enables it. The alternative is for the full handshake to work = in one location, and then when a user moves locations and the certs = change, it becomes impossible to authenticate. For some systems, the cached certificates can be pre-provisioned. = That means the full handshake is always avoided. > Also, in IETF 102 we discussed cached information and the possibility = for the client to cache the server's certificate from a dropped = handshake. I though more about this and I cannot see any cryptographic = problems with the client caching the server's certificate from a dropped = handshake. The client can verify the certificate anyway, but the server = may not have time to prove possession of the private key before the = handshake is dropped. Getting certificates out-of-band is common in many = cases. The only problem I can see is that an attacker could try to fill = the peer's memory storage by sending certificates to the client, but = this does not give any amplification and could easily be mitigated by = the client only caching a single or very few certificates. That concern can be mitigated by requiring a short lifetime for certs = cached due to partial handshakes. e.g. minutes, not days. And, = ensuring that the total number of certificates cached per site is = limited to a small number, like 16. > As fragmentation of large certificates is a large problem in EAP-TLS, = my view would be that we should specify that the peer can cache = certificates from a dropped handshake. With this change is it likely = almost always possible to do EAP-TLS even if the authenticator drops the = connection after 40-50 packages. If we decide to do this, we should tell = the TLS working group that we are planning this and ask for their view. My larger worry is that underlying SSL implementations may not support = caching of certs from dropped handshakes. It may be hard to add = features to SSL libraries which are used only by EAP-TLS. Alan DeKok. From nobody Wed Nov 14 06:45:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35CC2130E8F for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 06:45:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.77 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.77 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.47, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=Yp/Ie86n; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=Bo0+23hO Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DEgb4PWFur_y for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 06:45:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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mfO4McNWSTZhU7L5Stq/nlQtCHHomcDWvf9mJ9j7OIIIB7TSbAna0at6AZpNFUuwYrz1bpHxb3v79sthWTZuz14DAtVHHjA/nzgdzF7ngDFvGX1QMxfGQEbvpI7SwJK4xOrJvmVclxZ2jCqbhhdaSRV4WKwrJ7weRlCRmfM9bBDTPksBCb2YOMn9SBgyaqRcg5alAkjEE9AXAltvq4QlOOlNfaoQreIJqg/bMVmAUoqfUvPgU+JPI6xvoiFFxXwRJ6izL/LSNVpMJIRzW1/TwoqKgui2ZZy5uG+P1kVrCIR+554TOOrYD+LT1fjz+pgAGV/t/OZBb5Otggf5f/joyDxskjtFZ/QSEeqZjbqmhC8= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha256; boundary="B_3625033729_1450237569" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: de25660c-b9ae-4b3c-f387-08d64a404c26 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Nov 2018 14:48:53.4486 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 105b2061-b669-4b31-92ac-24d304d195dc X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CS1PR8401MB0807 X-OriginatorOrg: hpe.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03.txt X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:02:56 -0000 --B_3625033729_1450237569 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The question was asked about making it anonymous NAI mandatory in the Ident= ity Response. That is what my comments were targeted to. In terms of infrastructure, logging into a wireless controller, switch or N= MS and seeing hundreds of "anonymous@enterprise.co" makes an administrator's= life miserable. Most folks in a large enterprise responsible for troublesho= oting end user access do not have access to the EAP server. The only way to provide the real identity back to the NAS would be sending = it back as the IETF User-Name in the Access-Accept with the assumption that = the NAS would honor it.=20 tim =EF=BB=BFOn 11/14/18, 8:38 AM, "Alan DeKok" wrote: On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:16 AM, Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security) wrote: >=20 > Making it mandatory to use an anonymous NAI will be a huge issue in e= nterprise where the infrastructure, device and enterprise identity is owned = by the enterprise. There is no proxy or third party provider. =20 I don't see that in Section 2.1.4. It says: =20 ... a client supporting TLS 1.3 MUST NOT send its username in cleartext in the Identity Response. It is RECOMMENDED t= o use anonymous NAIs, but other solutions where the username is encrypted MAY be used. =20 So username *hiding* his mandatory. But the method is left to the im= plementation. =20 > Seeing "anonymous@enterprise.com" across all network infrastructure i= s not going to be acceptable. =20 In what context will you "see" that across all network infrastructure= ? =20 Since this is the enterprise, you control your own RADIUS server. Yo= u can associate the *inner* identity with the users session. There is no re= quirement that you only look at the outer identity for tracking user session= s. This tying of inner / outer identities is common in ISP and enterprise e= nvironments. =20 In the absence of specific reasons behind this statement, I just don'= t see how anonymous identities are a problem for anyone, anywhere. =20 If I had to guess, I'd say that the problem comes from *other* device= s on the network. Devices that snoop EAP, but aren't involved in the actual= authentication. The solution there would be to have the local RADIUS serve= r talk to the local snooping device. Or, the local snooping device looks at= MAC addresses instead of EAP identities. And then uses the RADIUS DB to co= rrelate MAC address to EAP inner identity.=20 =20 > Why not provide a flag that can be passed in the EAP exchange from th= e supplicant that enables this behavior so users with full control of their = device can use this while enterprise or other use cases that require real id= entity can configure the supplicant to provide a different flag? =20 Given the horrific nature of implementations and inter-operability, I= would oppose yet another point of negotiation. It does not add anything IM= HO. And, it makes implementations and inter-operability more complex. =20 Alan DeKok. =20 =20 --B_3625033729_1450237569 Content-type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIIJVAYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIJRTCCCUECAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0B BwGgggakMIIGoDCCBYigAwIBAgIQC4fYXsXYeu1wuVJdGIfYzTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADCB yDELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxKzApBgNVBAoTIkhld2xldHQgUGFja2FyZCBFbnRlcnByaXNlIENv bXBhbnkxHzAdBgNVBAsTFlN5bWFudGVjIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxNTAzBgNVBAsTLENsYXNz IDIgTWFuYWdlZCBQS0kgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyIENBMTQwMgYDVQQDEytIZXds ZXR0IFBhY2thcmQgRW50ZXJwcmlzZSBDb2xsYWJvcmF0aW9uIENBMB4XDTE3MTIxOTAwMDAw MFoXDTE5MTIxOTIzNTk1OVowgZoxKzApBgNVBAoUIkhld2xldHQgUGFja2FyZCBFbnRlcnBy aXNlIENvbXBhbnkxJjAkBgNVBAsUHUVtcGxveW1lbnQgU3RhdHVzIC0gRW1wbG95ZWVzMQ8w DQYDVQQLFAZTL01JTUUxFTATBgNVBAMMDFRpbSBDYXBwYWxsaTEbMBkGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYM dGltY0BocGUuY29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAwj6are7FHWnq RbyDKVQlrUPlQYMz+k1TeXackcNjGMM/ukihK10DZE6EyecV1ophnsOx/9vicwfCH1eJJDXx VK0D5G5gyQKAeJoqik5ofRLg38HMEW4ZB1ttUpu0KSLBv7oOPuO5QzQ/5iE5WA1AaMtX6iIP BtNcxPfDM0Ygi41Quio0+T+7QAt5PCLVJXxRiv/MIOBrzY97y5KcZvz59BteNp1wnM5aIegh XMXY19ISeblYT131cXSKXiUJvEJFdHMfbNLz+5Xzv3AGMTeC10TMSN6hfjrb1KVuowMlyBGz gW8tN1GDBUmxFwLCb8JK+7xLF58+3/Nqz3iRdCqeFQIDAQABo4ICsDCCAqwwFwYDVR0RBBAw DoEMdGltY0BocGUuY29tMAwGA1UdEwEB/wQCMAAwDgYDVR0PAQH/BAQDAgWgMGEGA1UdHwRa MFgwVqBUoFKGUGh0dHA6Ly9vbnNpdGVjcmwudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL0hld2xldHRQYWNrYXJk RW50ZXJwcmlzZUNvbXBhbnlTTUlNRS9MYXRlc3RDUkwuY3JsMB8GA1UdIwQYMBaAFPbgRYLL DEsOtFiIIfWOR74khmBQMB0GA1UdDgQWBBQI4PRa0if3GFKOjzRyivxy/ZsouTA3BggrBgEF BQcBAQQrMCkwJwYIKwYBBQUHMAGGG2h0dHA6Ly9ocGUtb2NzcC5zeW1hdXRoLmNvbTBXBgkq hkiG9w0BCQ8ESjBIMA4GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgIAgDANBggqhkiG9w0DAgIBQDAOBggqhkiG9w0D BAICAIAwCgYIKoZIhvcNAwcwCwYJYIZIAWUDBAECMIIBJAYDVR0gBIIBGzCCARcwggETBgtg hkgBhvhFAQcXAjCCAQIwJgYIKwYBBQUHAgEWGmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuc3ltYXV0aC5jb20vY3Bz MIHXBggrBgEFBQcCAjCByhqBx0F1dGhvcml0eSB0byBiaW5kIEhld2xldHQgUGFja2FyZCBF bnRlcnByaXNlIGRvZXMgbm90IGNvcnJlc3BvbmQgd2l0aCB1c2Ugb3IgcG9zc2Vzc2lvbiBv ZiB0aGlzIGNlcnQuIElzc3VlZCB0byBmYWNpbGl0YXRlIGNvbW11bmljYXRpb24gd2l0aCBI ZXdsZXR0IFBhY2thcmQgRW50ZXJwcmlzZS4gU3ltYW50ZWMncyBDUFMgaW5jb3JwIGJ5IHJl Zi4wFgYDVR0lAQH/BAwwCgYIKwYBBQUHAwQwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQADggEBAISgz8qEdwnR 7e+U1ztbWM8BdpVlrZ0Nl9Cm8Mk+zoszCjbr6FvT2pTGxGPXkACbsa6hl3BKEAT4tsMpeepS 6v4IPcnhlTn9Z71XI/O1fvqTyE5XLtmQCK/36rpEYwGnGi8BqO7Ma6w5fY47v5wQ1HDqpgnm Z/B7jI/5U04iB0Rxy33vOTXxVRB7ymb3G4xiu0xKMAbEIsMSiMGHIPThKCXg3cYc2hlrz2IB w4yMFQVttOmX56TBIXcfdWEO/nblOWLYCdwQ18c6r32wzdi220rGyRwEMfbodfVPbeWMxh+V Ut3uvdrrirTZA6DyyWLXgHI4PB5UMFQWy21GLl4PhLgxggJ0MIICcAIBATCB3TCByDELMAkG A1UEBhMCVVMxKzApBgNVBAoTIkhld2xldHQgUGFja2FyZCBFbnRlcnByaXNlIENvbXBhbnkx HzAdBgNVBAsTFlN5bWFudGVjIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxNTAzBgNVBAsTLENsYXNzIDIgTWFu YWdlZCBQS0kgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyIENBMTQwMgYDVQQDEytIZXdsZXR0IFBh Y2thcmQgRW50ZXJwcmlzZSBDb2xsYWJvcmF0aW9uIENBAhALh9hexdh67XC5Ul0Yh9jNMA0G CWCGSAFlAwQCAQUAoGkwLwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMSIEIFWG2kfJQqWckMm9koR7KGyYXsXm28+v RdQ7a2JPSHb1MBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTE4 MTExNDE0NDg0OVowDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAqQ+z10sDG9Nj/B1E9NLenWYE2iQI88Iz 5gRU+FBL9Dx6iJqRAJKXKLRUzzbWDYhqfVP7kiIQd9OjecBWhCXwSA8BzDtkL6v490hTr2Xe sTFqShJcB7rczGg2sfxNnHlajt6Msf8Vdv9PM7eiepS94GliefALnoMG3FaaGAbSG1vDNbhC xtbeAoLus7KRXEnEZKJ5NGpMSk+zaw71Psdiv0jxTJWe8C2bHeyuCQDQc4mvf1WdTSfxjGHN kebtfi5K2jlnwV+ECSXpGV40Gr1HUPs4gs2iVI5iHefdNl8Bf60jbrHYa+wLkpa2Hui6YbX3 Uz1Pbj8c5KEcTGN5yeN8yQ== --B_3625033729_1450237569-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 07:45:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE751292AD for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:45:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fiJqFTOnZS-9 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.networkradius.com (mail.networkradius.com [62.210.147.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E635C124BAA for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.46.58] (198-84-237-221.cpe.teksavvy.com [198.84.237.221]) by mail.networkradius.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B1D0370; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:45:22 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Alan DeKok In-Reply-To: <719612BF-970A-4609-9CD2-AF124CAB2435@hpe.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:45:20 -0500 Cc: John Mattsson , "emu@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0B9B7974-EBDA-422B-A4FF-06B500E5A912@deployingradius.com> References: <1C51B2F8-5635-4C36-B657-05A69B928509@hpe.com> <0BCDE1A6-1AFB-42E4-BF99-DB4935E78FDE@deployingradius.com> <719612BF-970A-4609-9CD2-AF124CAB2435@hpe.com> To: "Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03.txt X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:45:27 -0000 On Nov 14, 2018, at 9:48 AM, Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security) = wrote: >=20 > The question was asked about making it anonymous NAI mandatory in the = Identity Response. That is what my comments were targeted to. OK. For me, I would be fine with making the anonymous NAI mandatory. I = just don't see any end-user benefit to exposing their identities. And = there are benefits to privacy. > In terms of infrastructure, logging into a wireless controller, switch = or NMS and seeing hundreds of "anonymous@enterprise.co" makes an = administrator's life miserable. Most folks in a large enterprise = responsible for troubleshooting end user access do not have access to = the EAP server. If I were hard-nosed, I would say that's an internal management issue, = and not a standards issue. But I get your point, and there are ways to = address this (see below). > The only way to provide the real identity back to the NAS would be = sending it back as the IETF User-Name in the Access-Accept with the = assumption that the NAS would honor it.=20 All NASes that I'm aware of support this. i.e. where the User-Name in = Access-Accept is *not* the same as the one in the Access-Request. This question came up recently on RADEXT. The thread is here: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/radext/current/msg10079.html In short, it is possible (and is widely used) to return the *inner* = EAP-TLS identity in the *outer* RADIUS Access-Accept. That breaks user = anonymity, but it definitely works. My $0.02 is that we *should* mandate anonymous outer identities. = Enterprises which are OK with breaking user privacy can return a = different User-Name in the Access-Accept. Other systems can use another = method to track user identities across a session. In a related note, RFC 4372 defines a "Chargable-User-Identity" which = is intended to be used as an anonymized user identity in roaming = situations. In practice, it's only really supported in WiMAX and in = some 3G situations. Most enterprise equipment does not support it, = which makes it inapplicable here. Never the less, something similar could be done with User-Name in the = Access-Accept. And, it should be supported by all enterprise = equipment. It may be useful to discuss these topics in a "best practices" = document for EAP and user anonymity. If the WG thinks it's useful, I = could write it. Alan DeKok. From nobody Wed Nov 14 07:52:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08A9130F02 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:51:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bcfJ-DwGZ5dT for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:51:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.networkradius.com (mail.networkradius.com [62.210.147.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3CCB130EDC for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:51:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.46.58] (198-84-237-221.cpe.teksavvy.com [198.84.237.221]) by mail.networkradius.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E6C4A370; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:51:48 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Alan DeKok In-Reply-To: <6A08279F-DDC1-4C33-96CB-AA32FF0BB281@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:51:47 -0500 Cc: "emu@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <35768CBD-4B0A-44FA-A4C7-095D08E221E3@deployingradius.com> References: <6A08279F-DDC1-4C33-96CB-AA32FF0BB281@ericsson.com> To: John Mattsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] EAP-TLS 1.3 - TLS extensions and mechanisms - Review X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:51:55 -0000 On Nov 14, 2018, at 9:04 AM, John Mattsson = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > I think the draft is now in quite good shape. It would be good to get = some reviews.=20 A quick review, mostly NITs: Weaknesses found in previous versions of TLS, as well as new requirements for security, privacy, and reduced latency has led to I think this should be "... have led to ..." As stated in [RFC5216], the TLS cipher suite shall not be used to protect application data. This applies also for early application data. When EAP-TLS is used with TLS 1.3, early application data SHALL NOT be used. I'm not sure what section of RFC5216 says that the application data = isn't protected. Perhaps this could be clarified? Section 2.1.3: .. higher. The two paragraphs below replaces the corresponding "replace", not "replaces" Section 2.1.5: Including ContentType and ProtocolVersion a single TLS record may be up to 16387 octets in length. Some EAP implementations and access networks may limit the number of EAP packet exchanges that can be handled. To avoid fragmentation, it is RECOMMENDED to keep the sizes of client, server, and trust anchor certificates small and the length of the certificate chains short. The subsequent text talks about modifying the certificate formats (ECC = vs RSA) in order to shrink the certs. It may be useful here to discuss = other methods, too. e.g. adding full addresses, contact information, etc. into every = certificate can increase the cert sizes by hundreds of bytes. Admins = should investigate ways to identify certificates (especially = intermediate ones) via something *other* than using the certificate as a = database. Also, using many many intermediate certs should be = discouraged. While the structure of the cert chain may mirror = management structure in a company, technical limitations may mandate a = different structure for certificate chains. In practice 2-3 = intermediate certificates should be enough for most purposes. It may be = better to have a wider "fan out" of certificate dependencies, instead = of a deeper chain of certs. Alan DeKok. From nobody Wed Nov 14 08:12:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CC4130F55 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:12:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9gwk5u5iBfVn for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87083130EE0 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 08:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7645220072; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 7A981BE5; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78BFDBD8; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:12:09 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Alan DeKok cc: "Cappalli\, Tim \(Aruba Security\)" , "emu\@ietf.org" , John Mattsson In-Reply-To: <0B9B7974-EBDA-422B-A4FF-06B500E5A912@deployingradius.com> References: <1C51B2F8-5635-4C36-B657-05A69B928509@hpe.com> <0BCDE1A6-1AFB-42E4-BF99-DB4935E78FDE@deployingradius.com> <719612BF-970A-4609-9CD2-AF124CAB2435@hpe.com> <0B9B7974-EBDA-422B-A4FF-06B500E5A912@deployingradius.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03.txt X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 16:12:18 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Alan DeKok wrote: > For me, I would be fine with making the anonymous NAI mandatory. I > just don't see any end-user benefit to exposing their identities. And > there are benefits to privacy. >> In terms of infrastructure, logging into a wireless controller, switch >>or NMS and seeing hundreds of "anonymous@enterprise.co" makes an >>administrator's life miserable. Most folks in a large enterprise >>responsible for troubleshooting end user access do not have access to >>the EAP server. > If I were hard-nosed, I would say that's an internal management issue, > and not a standards issue. But I get your point, and there are ways to > address this (see below). It might be a lack of standard way to access logs of EAP server issue. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlvsSVkACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXXSgf7BQNHtofDt/t/4u3ZrSeKN88+Fo36Cvcz/UfuJ3fozplw4oCsE7UDf933 XWgieQ5kehNhI9IzYWWbQvfPMOlCt3KLuO7vz3qZJKXqEeo9kO9RM8rqyX4y8Xv+ EeaOtFNROYisb7JvWETmfKazXOZK8nS0uLLNWw41PoZqzHA8GwAJ2RJlz/cwUhVM 6GyBacEnx+K+Vh79je2TbrEwDIW4f3/mmlUZjoQIDXmX2VWlXM/j/FPRKL06OBgW mED57JyARwpvqfhkYQD0/yvd6LgLHwghc5RKm/2ekSU7o3F+AQyBrr2CUeStqqf5 BcrKwzNaPucvZfyKQC67GEwxeGwZug== =JgWc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 14 09:47:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BBAD12958B; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:47:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TGaluqvUd2nT; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:47:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086FE127332; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:47:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47892660259; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:47:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RhwTjdQI_v-k; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:47:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA9D7660206; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:47:13 +0200 (EET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: <023401d478a6$9b951510$d2bf3f30$@augustcellars.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 18:47:13 +0100 Cc: emu@ietf.org, draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3D9A3BE7-A15A-4F0A-8830-06F56E1E27F7@piuha.net> References: <023401d478a6$9b951510$d2bf3f30$@augustcellars.com> To: Jim Schaad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] WGLC for draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 17:47:20 -0000 Thanks for your review, Jim. > Any issues that I have here might have already been raised and = discussed. If so just not that and ignore. >=20 > Section 3.4 - I am curious why you did not make the hash function a = property of the HKDF function rather than making it a hard coded value. = I would kind of expect that section 3.4 (top) and 3.4.1 would be part of = the KDF function and not stand alone values. I am not sure if I think = that the MAC function should also be defined by this as well. Doing so = would allow for an easier jump to SHA3 at a later date if needed. =20 >=20 > Other than that question the document is clear and the EMU parts seem = to be correct. I cannot comment on any of the 3GPP parts. Good questions. I=E2=80=99m not sure I can entirely answer what the thinking was without = going through past correspondence; I can=E2=80=99t recall. I=E2=80=99m = not sure we were clever enough to do what you suggested back then, this = could be just a missed opportunity. But I could be missing some reason = why we didn=E2=80=99t do it. Thinking about it now, tying AT_MAC, AT_CHECKCODE, PRF, *and* KDF all to = AT_KDF value would make sense. However, that would seem like a change to = a design that was in RFC 5448, and if we change that there will be two = questions: (a) can we do it and (b) should we do it?=20 It seems like that answer to the first question is that we can, because = even if (e.g.) AT_MAC appears before KDF negotiation is completed, if = the peer does not want to do the requested KDF/hash functions, it will = in any case propose new KDF before running the actual crypto. The answer to the second question may be trickier. If I=E2=80=99m right = above, we could make a change without requiring any new code lines in = existing implementations, but it would still be a change. And if we made = that kind of change, there=E2=80=99d probably be a wish from 3GPP to = review that change as well. And possibly a request to discuss the = change, or do further development. This is what makes me hesitate a bit. But I=E2=80=99ll also observe that a future document that introduces = SHA-16384 could certainly define all this anyway; peers that can not do = the KDF/hash that is proposed would suggested the older algorithms = instead, and crypto would only run once both parties agree on what is = negotiated in AT_KDF. I=E2=80=99ll think about this some more, but this = seems at the moment preferable to me. Jari From nobody Wed Nov 14 10:35:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B48D12F1AC for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:35:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kXXkIfh6w8Pj for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C7FE12D4E8 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1347.2; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:30:06 -0800 From: Jim Schaad To: "'Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security)'" , 'Alan DeKok' CC: , 'John Mattsson' References: <1C51B2F8-5635-4C36-B657-05A69B928509@hpe.com> <0BCDE1A6-1AFB-42E4-BF99-DB4935E78FDE@deployingradius.com> <719612BF-970A-4609-9CD2-AF124CAB2435@hpe.com> In-Reply-To: <719612BF-970A-4609-9CD2-AF124CAB2435@hpe.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:34:54 -0800 Message-ID: <000001d47c48$be92d390$3bb87ab0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQFAS45uEFwhxyL/jgE222Q+cm6JYwL0AiLbAfj7kT6mUJH7AA== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03.txt X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 18:35:45 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Emu On Behalf Of Cappalli, Tim (Aruba > Security) > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 6:49 AM > To: Alan DeKok > Cc: emu@ietf.org; John Mattsson > Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for = draft-ietf-emu-eap- > tls13-03.txt >=20 > The question was asked about making it anonymous NAI mandatory in the > Identity Response. That is what my comments were targeted to. >=20 > In terms of infrastructure, logging into a wireless controller, switch = or NMS > and seeing hundreds of "anonymous@enterprise.co" makes an > administrator's life miserable. Most folks in a large enterprise = responsible for > troubleshooting end user access do not have access to the EAP server. >=20 > The only way to provide the real identity back to the NAS would be = sending it > back as the IETF User-Name in the Access-Accept with the assumption = that > the NAS would honor it. My first response to this would be - what happens as an attacker I = supply one name in the outer and validate using a different (and = correct) inner name. This is going to make the administrator's life = miserable since they are going to be looking at the wrong name and not = have any ability to recognize that that is the problem. Jim >=20 > tim >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 11/14/18, 8:38 AM, "Alan DeKok" = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:16 AM, Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security) > wrote: >=20 > > >=20 > > Making it mandatory to use an anonymous NAI will be a huge issue = in > enterprise where the infrastructure, device and enterprise identity is = owned > by the enterprise. There is no proxy or third party provider. >=20 >=20 >=20 > I don't see that in Section 2.1.4. It says: >=20 >=20 >=20 > ... a client supporting TLS 1.3 MUST NOT send its >=20 > username in cleartext in the Identity Response. It is = RECOMMENDED to >=20 > use anonymous NAIs, but other solutions where the username is >=20 > encrypted MAY be used. >=20 >=20 >=20 > So username *hiding* his mandatory. But the method is left to = the > implementation. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Seeing "anonymous@enterprise.com" across all network = infrastructure is > not going to be acceptable. >=20 >=20 >=20 > In what context will you "see" that across all network = infrastructure? >=20 >=20 >=20 > Since this is the enterprise, you control your own RADIUS = server. You can > associate the *inner* identity with the users session. There is no > requirement that you only look at the outer identity for tracking user > sessions. This tying of inner / outer identities is common in ISP and > enterprise environments. >=20 >=20 >=20 > In the absence of specific reasons behind this statement, I just = don't see > how anonymous identities are a problem for anyone, anywhere. >=20 >=20 >=20 > If I had to guess, I'd say that the problem comes from *other* = devices on > the network. Devices that snoop EAP, but aren't involved in the = actual > authentication. The solution there would be to have the local RADIUS = server > talk to the local snooping device. Or, the local snooping device = looks at MAC > addresses instead of EAP identities. And then uses the RADIUS DB to > correlate MAC address to EAP inner identity. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Why not provide a flag that can be passed in the EAP exchange = from the > supplicant that enables this behavior so users with full control of = their device > can use this while enterprise or other use cases that require real = identity can > configure the supplicant to provide a different flag? >=20 >=20 >=20 > Given the horrific nature of implementations and = inter-operability, I > would oppose yet another point of negotiation. It does not add = anything > IMHO. And, it makes implementations and inter-operability more = complex. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Alan DeKok. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Nov 14 12:00:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605F4130F23; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:00:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EEyhjPcRRino; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B21C4130F73; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1347.2; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 11:55:20 -0800 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Jari Arkko' CC: , References: <023401d478a6$9b951510$d2bf3f30$@augustcellars.com> <3D9A3BE7-A15A-4F0A-8830-06F56E1E27F7@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: <3D9A3BE7-A15A-4F0A-8830-06F56E1E27F7@piuha.net> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:00:07 -0800 Message-ID: <000501d47c54$a612bd10$f2383730$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQJ9P87+lstctHCuW7y8wfK64D/FzwLm8p1xAXs5UZ+j2xdwcA== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] WGLC for draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:00:26 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jari Arkko > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 9:47 AM > To: Jim Schaad > Cc: emu@ietf.org; draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Emu] WGLC for draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis >=20 > Thanks for your review, Jim. >=20 > > Any issues that I have here might have already been raised and = discussed. > If so just not that and ignore. > > > > Section 3.4 - I am curious why you did not make the hash function a > property of the HKDF function rather than making it a hard coded = value. I > would kind of expect that section 3.4 (top) and 3.4.1 would be part of = the > KDF function and not stand alone values. I am not sure if I think = that the > MAC function should also be defined by this as well. Doing so would = allow > for an easier jump to SHA3 at a later date if needed. > > > > Other than that question the document is clear and the EMU parts = seem to > be correct. I cannot comment on any of the 3GPP parts. >=20 > Good questions. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure I can entirely answer what the thinking was = without going > through past correspondence; I can=E2=80=99t recall. I=E2=80=99m not = sure we were clever > enough to do what you suggested back then, this could be just a missed > opportunity. But I could be missing some reason why we didn=E2=80=99t = do it. >=20 > Thinking about it now, tying AT_MAC, AT_CHECKCODE, PRF, *and* KDF all = to > AT_KDF value would make sense. However, that would seem like a change = to > a design that was in RFC 5448, and if we change that there will be two > questions: (a) can we do it and (b) should we do it? >=20 > It seems like that answer to the first question is that we can, = because even if > (e.g.) AT_MAC appears before KDF negotiation is completed, if the peer = does > not want to do the requested KDF/hash functions, it will in any case = propose > new KDF before running the actual crypto. >=20 > The answer to the second question may be trickier. If I=E2=80=99m = right above, we > could make a change without requiring any new code lines in existing > implementations, but it would still be a change. And if we made that = kind of > change, there=E2=80=99d probably be a wish from 3GPP to review that = change as well. > And possibly a request to discuss the change, or do further = development. This > is what makes me hesitate a bit. >=20 > But I=E2=80=99ll also observe that a future document that introduces = SHA-16384 could > certainly define all this anyway; peers that can not do the KDF/hash = that is > proposed would suggested the older algorithms instead, and crypto = would > only run once both parties agree on what is negotiated in AT_KDF. = I=E2=80=99ll think > about this some more, but this seems at the moment preferable to me. Jari, All of what you said makes complete sense to me. As I said I was asking = for curiosity value and not because I thought this should hold up the = document from progressing. The one change I think you might consider doing is to put a "future = version note" into the document with the suggestion that this be = considered. If the reason was just oversight I would hate for the same = oversight to be made later and a new EAP method be registered. Jim >=20 > Jari From nobody Wed Nov 14 12:27:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6CF1130DC9 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:27:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vPUzEVMWewj7 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:27:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.networkradius.com (mail.networkradius.com [62.210.147.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5FC1277C8 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:27:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.46.58] (198-84-237-221.cpe.teksavvy.com [198.84.237.221]) by mail.networkradius.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1569DE4; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:27:01 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Alan DeKok In-Reply-To: <000001d47c48$be92d390$3bb87ab0$@augustcellars.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:27:00 -0500 Cc: "Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security)" , emu@ietf.org, John Mattsson Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <251CCB08-6AF9-417A-8F0D-C9C608284000@deployingradius.com> References: <1C51B2F8-5635-4C36-B657-05A69B928509@hpe.com> <0BCDE1A6-1AFB-42E4-BF99-DB4935E78FDE@deployingradius.com> <719612BF-970A-4609-9CD2-AF124CAB2435@hpe.com> <000001d47c48$be92d390$3bb87ab0$@augustcellars.com> To: Jim Schaad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03.txt X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 20:27:06 -0000 On Nov 14, 2018, at 1:34 PM, Jim Schaad wrote: >> The only way to provide the real identity back to the NAS would be = sending it >> back as the IETF User-Name in the Access-Accept with the assumption = that >> the NAS would honor it. >=20 > My first response to this would be - what happens as an attacker I = supply one name in the outer and validate using a different (and = correct) inner name. That happens all of the time. Users are inventive with methods of = avoiding payment. > This is going to make the administrator's life miserable since they = are going to be looking at the wrong name and not have any ability to = recognize that that is the problem. The better solution (and one implemented by most people), is have the = authentication server check for this situation. And, reject = authentications that have mismatched identities. For some discussion of this subject, see: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7542#section-4.2 It would help for the Security Considerations section of the EAP-TLS = 1.3 document to have additional discussion and clarifications of this = topic. It should at least note that the inner and outer identities can = be different, and reference Section 4.2 of RFC 7542. For an implementation of inner/outer identity checks, see: = https://github.com/FreeRADIUS/freeradius-server/blob/v3.0.x/raddb/policy.d= /filter#L111 It's not perfect, but it seems to work well in practice. Alan DeKok. From nobody Wed Nov 14 13:29:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57490130DE3 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:29:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7VW29XiW0_vc for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1451F130DCE for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:29:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jude (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1347.2; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:24:13 -0800 From: Jim Schaad To: "'Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security)'" , 'Alan DeKok' CC: , 'John Mattsson' References: <1C51B2F8-5635-4C36-B657-05A69B928509@hpe.com> <0BCDE1A6-1AFB-42E4-BF99-DB4935E78FDE@deployingradius.com> <719612BF-970A-4609-9CD2-AF124CAB2435@hpe.com> <000001d47c48$be92d390$3bb87ab0$@augustcellars.com> In-Reply-To: <000001d47c48$be92d390$3bb87ab0$@augustcellars.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:29:01 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01d47c61$1170e3f0$3452abd0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQFAS45uEFwhxyL/jgE222Q+cm6JYwL0AiLbAfj7kT4CsvqvraY7Kvug Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03.txt X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 21:29:14 -0000 This message had my response in the wrong place. I was responding to = Tim's comments and not to Alan's comments. I completely agree with Alan = that this information needs to be fed back to the NAS and not rely on = what the client starts out saying. > -----Original Message----- > From: Emu On Behalf Of Jim Schaad > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:35 AM > To: 'Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security)' ; 'Alan DeKok' > > Cc: emu@ietf.org; 'John Mattsson' > Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for = draft-ietf-emu-eap- > tls13-03.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Emu On Behalf Of Cappalli, Tim (Aruba > > Security) > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 6:49 AM > > To: Alan DeKok > > Cc: emu@ietf.org; John Mattsson > > Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for > > draft-ietf-emu-eap- tls13-03.txt > > > > The question was asked about making it anonymous NAI mandatory in = the > > Identity Response. That is what my comments were targeted to. > > > > In terms of infrastructure, logging into a wireless controller, = switch > > or NMS and seeing hundreds of "anonymous@enterprise.co" makes an > > administrator's life miserable. Most folks in a large enterprise > > responsible for troubleshooting end user access do not have access = to the > EAP server. > > > > The only way to provide the real identity back to the NAS would be > > sending it back as the IETF User-Name in the Access-Accept with the > > assumption that the NAS would honor it. >=20 > My first response to this would be - what happens as an attacker I = supply one > name in the outer and validate using a different (and correct) inner = name. > This is going to make the administrator's life miserable since they = are going > to be looking at the wrong name and not have any ability to recognize = that > that is the problem. >=20 > Jim >=20 > > > > tim > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 11/14/18, 8:38 AM, "Alan DeKok" = > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:16 AM, Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security) > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Making it mandatory to use an anonymous NAI will be a huge = issue > > in enterprise where the infrastructure, device and enterprise = identity > > is owned by the enterprise. There is no proxy or third party = provider. > > > > > > > > I don't see that in Section 2.1.4. It says: > > > > > > > > ... a client supporting TLS 1.3 MUST NOT send its > > > > username in cleartext in the Identity Response. It is > > RECOMMENDED to > > > > use anonymous NAIs, but other solutions where the username is > > > > encrypted MAY be used. > > > > > > > > So username *hiding* his mandatory. But the method is left to > > the implementation. > > > > > > > > > Seeing "anonymous@enterprise.com" across all network > > infrastructure is not going to be acceptable. > > > > > > > > In what context will you "see" that across all network = infrastructure? > > > > > > > > Since this is the enterprise, you control your own RADIUS > > server. You can associate the *inner* identity with the users > > session. There is no requirement that you only look at the outer > > identity for tracking user sessions. This tying of inner / outer > > identities is common in ISP and enterprise environments. > > > > > > > > In the absence of specific reasons behind this statement, I = just > > don't see how anonymous identities are a problem for anyone, = anywhere. > > > > > > > > If I had to guess, I'd say that the problem comes from *other* > > devices on the network. Devices that snoop EAP, but aren't involved > > in the actual authentication. The solution there would be to have = the > > local RADIUS server talk to the local snooping device. Or, the = local > > snooping device looks at MAC addresses instead of EAP identities. = And > > then uses the RADIUS DB to correlate MAC address to EAP inner = identity. > > > > > > > > > Why not provide a flag that can be passed in the EAP exchange > > from the supplicant that enables this behavior so users with full > > control of their device can use this while enterprise or other use > > cases that require real identity can configure the supplicant to = provide a > different flag? > > > > > > > > Given the horrific nature of implementations and > > inter-operability, I would oppose yet another point of negotiation. > > It does not add anything IMHO. And, it makes implementations and = inter- > operability more complex. > > > > > > > > Alan DeKok. > > > > > > > > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Emu mailing list > Emu@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu From nobody Wed Nov 14 14:24:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94992130DFC; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 14:24:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lhFSFNnZ8wF2; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 14:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931CD126CB6; Wed, 14 Nov 2018 14:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A260966024F; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:23:59 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yUTIvEY9C9j4; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:23:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43D4B660082; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 00:23:58 +0200 (EET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: <000501d47c54$a612bd10$f2383730$@augustcellars.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 23:23:56 +0100 Cc: emu@ietf.org, draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <023401d478a6$9b951510$d2bf3f30$@augustcellars.com> <3D9A3BE7-A15A-4F0A-8830-06F56E1E27F7@piuha.net> <000501d47c54$a612bd10$f2383730$@augustcellars.com> To: Jim Schaad X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] WGLC for draft-ietf-emu-rfc5448bis X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 22:24:02 -0000 > The one change I think you might consider doing is to put a "future = version note" into the document with the suggestion that this be = considered.=20 Good idea. I will write something. Jari From nobody Wed Nov 21 07:36:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A9A12777C for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:36:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_HK_NAME_DR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kxorAovmrQTn for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.katezarealty.com (mail.katezarealty.com [104.168.158.213]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4DC128AFB for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mail.katezarealty.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA8193740FFC for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:36:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at katezarealty.com Received: from mail.katezarealty.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.katezarealty.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id MdFP63nF-QbQ for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from Maxs-MBP.cablelabs.com (unknown [192.160.73.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.katezarealty.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C56537404AB for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:36:26 -0500 (EST) To: emu@ietf.org References: <1C51B2F8-5635-4C36-B657-05A69B928509@hpe.com> <0BCDE1A6-1AFB-42E4-BF99-DB4935E78FDE@deployingradius.com> <719612BF-970A-4609-9CD2-AF124CAB2435@hpe.com> <000001d47c48$be92d390$3bb87ab0$@augustcellars.com> <000f01d47c61$1170e3f0$3452abd0$@augustcellars.com> From: "Dr. Pala" Organization: OpenCA Labs Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:36:25 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000f01d47c61$1170e3f0$3452abd0$@augustcellars.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms000904000006040602050801" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03.txt X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:36:41 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000904000006040602050801 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BFC08E4F3CBE734186DCB3D6" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BFC08E4F3CBE734186DCB3D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, in other environment we had to add the attribute about which ID was=20 actually authenticated in the final messages because of additional=20 operations that some network equipment needs to perform that requires=20 the identity of the supplicant to be disclosed (exactly to avoid the use = of an external identity and different credentials when authenticating). I just want to point out the obvious - this is a sub-case of the=20 anonymous NAI format. If there is any consensus in mandating for that=20 format/identity then we need to mandate that the authenticated identity=20 is carried in the accept/success message (which could still be the=20 anonymous NAI format if the system allows that to be a valid identity=20 value). Does that make sense ? Cheers, Max On 11/14/18 2:29 PM, Jim Schaad wrote: > This message had my response in the wrong place. I was responding to T= im's comments and not to Alan's comments. I completely agree with Alan t= hat this information needs to be fed back to the NAS and not rely on what= the client starts out saying. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Emu On Behalf Of Jim Schaad >> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:35 AM >> To: 'Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security)' ; 'Alan DeKok' >> >> Cc: emu@ietf.org; 'John Mattsson' >> Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-emu-eap= - >> tls13-03.txt >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Emu On Behalf Of Cappalli, Tim (Aruba >>> Security) >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 6:49 AM >>> To: Alan DeKok >>> Cc: emu@ietf.org; John Mattsson >>> Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for >>> draft-ietf-emu-eap- tls13-03.txt >>> >>> The question was asked about making it anonymous NAI mandatory in the= >>> Identity Response. That is what my comments were targeted to. >>> >>> In terms of infrastructure, logging into a wireless controller, switc= h >>> or NMS and seeing hundreds of "anonymous@enterprise.co" makes an >>> administrator's life miserable. Most folks in a large enterprise >>> responsible for troubleshooting end user access do not have access to= the >> EAP server. >>> The only way to provide the real identity back to the NAS would be >>> sending it back as the IETF User-Name in the Access-Accept with the >>> assumption that the NAS would honor it. >> My first response to this would be - what happens as an attacker I sup= ply one >> name in the outer and validate using a different (and correct) inner n= ame. >> This is going to make the administrator's life miserable since they ar= e going >> to be looking at the wrong name and not have any ability to recognize = that >> that is the problem. >> >> Jim >> >>> tim >>> >>> =EF=BB=BFOn 11/14/18, 8:38 AM, "Alan DeKok" >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:16 AM, Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security) >>> wrote: >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Making it mandatory to use an anonymous NAI will be a huge iss= ue >>> in enterprise where the infrastructure, device and enterprise identit= y >>> is owned by the enterprise. There is no proxy or third party provider= =2E >>> >>> >>> >>> I don't see that in Section 2.1.4. It says: >>> >>> >>> >>> ... a client supporting TLS 1.3 MUST NOT send its >>> >>> username in cleartext in the Identity Response. It is >>> RECOMMENDED to >>> >>> use anonymous NAIs, but other solutions where the username is= >>> >>> encrypted MAY be used. >>> >>> >>> >>> So username *hiding* his mandatory. But the method is left to= >>> the implementation. >>> >>> >>> >>> > Seeing "anonymous@enterprise.com" across all network >>> infrastructure is not going to be acceptable. >>> >>> >>> >>> In what context will you "see" that across all network infrast= ructure? >>> >>> >>> >>> Since this is the enterprise, you control your own RADIUS >>> server. You can associate the *inner* identity with the users >>> session. There is no requirement that you only look at the outer >>> identity for tracking user sessions. This tying of inner / outer >>> identities is common in ISP and enterprise environments. >>> >>> >>> >>> In the absence of specific reasons behind this statement, I ju= st >>> don't see how anonymous identities are a problem for anyone, anywhere= =2E >>> >>> >>> >>> If I had to guess, I'd say that the problem comes from *other*= >>> devices on the network. Devices that snoop EAP, but aren't involved >>> in the actual authentication. The solution there would be to have th= e >>> local RADIUS server talk to the local snooping device. Or, the local= >>> snooping device looks at MAC addresses instead of EAP identities. An= d >>> then uses the RADIUS DB to correlate MAC address to EAP inner identit= y. >>> >>> >>> >>> > Why not provide a flag that can be passed in the EAP exchange >>> from the supplicant that enables this behavior so users with full >>> control of their device can use this while enterprise or other use >>> cases that require real identity can configure the supplicant to prov= ide a >> different flag? >>> >>> >>> Given the horrific nature of implementations and >>> inter-operability, I would oppose yet another point of negotiation. >>> It does not add anything IMHO. And, it makes implementations and int= er- >> operability more complex. >>> >>> >>> Alan DeKok. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emu mailing list >> Emu@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu > _______________________________________________ > Emu mailing list > Emu@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu --=20 Best Regards, Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D. OpenCA Labs Director OpenCA Logo --------------BFC08E4F3CBE734186DCB3D6 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------1498FB823D36238DEEF419D8" --------------1498FB823D36238DEEF419D8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

in other environment we had to add the attribute about which ID was actually authenticated in the final messages because of additional operations that some network equipment needs to perform that requires the identity of the supplicant to be disclosed (exactly to avoid the use of an external identity and different credentials when authenticating).

I just want to point out the obvious - this is a sub-case of the anonymous NAI format. If there is any consensus in mandating for that format/identity then we need to mandate that the authenticated identity is carried in the accept/success message (which could still be the anonymous NAI format if the system allows that to be a valid identity value).

Does that make sense ?

Cheers,
Max


On 11/14/18 2:29 PM, Jim Schaad wrote:= 
This message had my response=
 in the wrong place.  I was responding to Tim's comments and not to Alan'=
s comments.  I completely agree with Alan that this information needs to =
be fed back to the NAS and not rely on what the client starts out saying.=



-----Original Message-----=

From: Emu <emu-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jim Schaad
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 10:35 AM
To: 'Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security)' <timc@hpe.com>; 'Alan DeKok'
<aland@deployingradius.com>
Cc: em=
u@ietf.org; 'John Mattsson' <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-emu-eap-
tls13-03.txt




-----Original Message---=
--
From: Emu <emu-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Cappalli, Tim (Aru=
ba
Security)
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 6:49 AM
To: Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com>
Cc: em=
u@ietf.org; John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>=

Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for
draft-ietf-emu-eap- tls13-03.txt

The question was asked about making it anonymous NAI mandatory in the
Identity Response. That is what my comments were targeted to.

In terms of infrastructure, logging into a wireless controller, switch
or NMS and seeing hundreds of "anonymous@enterprise.co" makes an
administrator's life miserable. Most folks in a large enterprise
responsible for troubleshooting end user access do not have access to the=


EAP server.

The only way to provide the real identity back to the NAS would be
sending it back as the IETF User-Name in the Access-Accept with the
assumption that the NAS would honor it.

My first response to this would be - what happens as an attacker I supply=
 one
name in the outer and validate using a different (and correct) inner name=
=2E
This is going to make the administrator's life miserable since they are g=
oing
to be looking at the wrong name and not have any ability to recognize tha=
t
that is the problem.

Jim


tim

=EF=BB=BFOn 11/14/18, 8:38 AM, "Alan DeKok" <aland@deployingradius=
=2Ecom>

wrote:



    On Nov 14, 2018, at 8:16 AM, Cappalli, Tim (Aruba Security)
<timc@=
hpe.com> wrote:

    >

    > Making it mandatory to use an anonymous NAI will be a huge issue=

in enterprise where the infrastructure, device and enterprise identity
is owned by the enterprise. There is no proxy or third party provider.



     I don't see that in Section 2.1.4.  It says:



       ... a client supporting TLS 1.3 MUST NOT send its

       username in cleartext in the Identity Response.  It is
RECOMMENDED to

       use anonymous NAIs, but other solutions where the username is

       encrypted MAY be used.



      So username *hiding* his mandatory.  But the method is left to
the implementation.



    > Seeing "anonymous@enterprise.com" across all network
infrastructure is not going to be acceptable.



      In what context will you "see" that across all network infrastructu=
re?



      Since this is the enterprise, you control your own RADIUS
server.  You can associate the *inner* identity with the users
session.  There is no requirement that you only look at the outer
identity for tracking user sessions.  This tying of inner / outer
identities is common in ISP and enterprise environments.



      In the absence of specific reasons behind this statement, I just
don't see how anonymous identities are a problem for anyone, anywhere.



      If I had to guess, I'd say that the problem comes from *other*
devices on the network.  Devices that snoop EAP, but aren't involved
in the actual authentication.  The solution there would be to have the
local RADIUS server talk to the local snooping device.  Or, the local
snooping device looks at MAC addresses instead of EAP identities.  And
then uses the RADIUS DB to correlate MAC address to EAP inner identity.



    > Why not provide a flag that can be passed in the EAP exchange
from the supplicant that enables this behavior so users with full
control of their device can use this while enterprise or other use
cases that require real identity can configure the supplicant to provide =
a

different flag?



      Given the horrific nature of implementations and
inter-operability, I would oppose yet another point of negotiation.
It does not add anything IMHO.  And, it makes implementations and inter-

operability more complex.



      Alan DeKok.






_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ie=
tf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu

_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ie=
tf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
--
Best Regards,
Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
OpenCA Labs Director
3D"OpenCA
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amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CQf3LBrb1GLQ for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.networkradius.com (mail.networkradius.com [62.210.147.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E81312E7C1 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 07:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.46.58] (198-84-237-221.cpe.teksavvy.com [198.84.237.221]) by mail.networkradius.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7286EE4; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:52:19 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Alan DeKok In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:52:17 -0500 Cc: emu@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7308B33E-06A3-453E-98F4-80A612F9839E@deployingradius.com> References: <1C51B2F8-5635-4C36-B657-05A69B928509@hpe.com> <0BCDE1A6-1AFB-42E4-BF99-DB4935E78FDE@deployingradius.com> <719612BF-970A-4609-9CD2-AF124CAB2435@hpe.com> <000001d47c48$be92d390$3bb87ab0$@augustcellars.com> <000f01d47c61$1170e3f0$3452abd0$@augustcellars.com> To: "Dr. Pala" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-03.txt X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:52:24 -0000 On Nov 21, 2018, at 10:36 AM, Dr. Pala wrote: >=20 > in other environment we had to add the attribute about which ID was = actually authenticated in the final messages because of additional = operations that some network equipment needs to perform that requires = the identity of the supplicant to be disclosed (exactly to avoid the use = of an external identity and different credentials when authenticating). Which attribute was that? > I just want to point out the obvious - this is a sub-case of the = anonymous NAI format. If there is any consensus in mandating for that = format/identity then we need to mandate that the authenticated identity = is carried in the accept/success message (which could still be the = anonymous NAI format if the system allows that to be a valid identity = value). I would suggest the following requirements: * it is useful to track the authenticated user * it would be good to keep user privacy while doing this (i.e. *not* = exposing the inner identity) * using anything *other* than the NAI format for tracking will break = many things For example, we have a user who logs with anonymous identity as = "@example.com", and real identity as "bob@example.com". We then require = that any anonymised "tracking" identity MUST be within the domain of = example.com. The reason is that the User-Name sent in Access-Accept will be used = for subsequent accounting packets. In a roaming environment, these = accounting packets MUST be routable to the same destination as was used = for authentication. We are then left with making recommendations for NAIs that are within = the namespace of a particular domain. i.e. telling "example.com" what = they should or should not use for these anonymous identities. RFC 7542 = was *very* careful in not making such recommendations. It's just too = hard to make recommendations that everyone can accept, much less use. To throw out an idea, IMHO the only safe recommendation is to use the = MAC address of the device as the users anonymized "identity". The MAC = address is already public to participants in EAP / RADIUS (via = Calling-Station-Id). It's already globally unique (via IEEE = requirements). So it would seem to not only work, but satisfy the = requirements I noted above. Using the MAC address doesn't help in the situation that Tim Cappalli = noted. But we care less about privacy within an enterprise environment. = Those situations can just expose the inner identity, and be done with = it. So we're left with recommending "MAC-ADDRESS@realm". Maybe also = recommending "MAC-ADDRESS@anonymous.realm". in order to separate the = namespaces of "real" identities, and "anonymized" identities. Comments? Alan DeKok. From nobody Wed Nov 28 00:32:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D096E130E4A for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 00:32:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AmBKgQtlz0AT for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 00:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670C412D4ED for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 00:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA98466028B; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 10:32:02 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 37jH85XiDV5W; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 10:32:01 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46E13660154; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 10:32:01 +0200 (EET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: <39E1238A-2E39-4FF4-89C3-2B549C1EA84F@deployingradius.com> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 10:32:00 +0200 Cc: emu@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <932256A8-6381-4EE9-95B2-C56B4E7F52D5@piuha.net> References: <45e7325b-f5d1-c4b8-edb2-3e39d03989fe@openca.org> <39E1238A-2E39-4FF4-89C3-2B549C1EA84F@deployingradius.com> To: "Dr. Pala" , Alan DeKok X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] WG adoption call for draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 08:32:07 -0000 Max, Alan, First, thank you for your review and expressing that this is an = important step in moving the mobile network authentication schemes to = present-day crypto approaches :-) With regards to the IPR question, I want to stay away from discussing = anyone=E2=80=99s licensing conditions, as I don=E2=80=99t represent = anyone and also because of anti-trust. However, I think it would be useful to understand the situation: The proposed specification is an extension of RFC 5448 or EAP-AKA'. That = RFC already had a similar IPR declaration from someone else, back 10 = years ago when it was being specified. Yet, the declared or other = potential IPR constraints do not appear to have slowed the adoption of = this RFC in the industry. The phone that I=E2=80=99m writing this on = implements EAP-AKA=E2=80=99 for instance. And there are open source = implementations. Also, a likely use case for this is in 5G, but in a = (say) 5G phone there will be other technologies, not all unencumbered. We could do this particular extension in a different way to avoid this = particular license, but it wouldn=E2=80=99t necessarily resolve all = issues. In addition, new technical issues might arise. For instance, I = predict that the ability to perform PFS in the same number of roundtrips = for the registration exchange is important for the potential adoption of = this. I wouldn=E2=80=99t want to trade that away for instance, if using = different technology meant doing that. Finally, I think we really need this for the users. So from my perspective there=E2=80=99s a clear need for this and I see = no evidence that previous situations in this particular case have slowed = deployment in any fashion. Also, this particular extension doesn=E2=80=99t= change the overall situation with regards to EAP-AKA=E2=80=99. Does = that help reduce your concerns? Jari From nobody Wed Nov 28 04:12:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AAEE12D4EF for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 04:12:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hF9SN8PSdxE9 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 04:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.networkradius.com (mail.networkradius.com [62.210.147.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96BDC128CE4 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 04:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.46.58] (198-84-237-221.cpe.teksavvy.com [198.84.237.221]) by mail.networkradius.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EA31A370; Wed, 28 Nov 2018 12:12:43 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Alan DeKok In-Reply-To: <932256A8-6381-4EE9-95B2-C56B4E7F52D5@piuha.net> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 07:12:42 -0500 Cc: "Dr. Pala" , emu@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <98AB9912-1110-47F8-A4B0-94CB2E6A302E@deployingradius.com> References: <45e7325b-f5d1-c4b8-edb2-3e39d03989fe@openca.org> <39E1238A-2E39-4FF4-89C3-2B549C1EA84F@deployingradius.com> <932256A8-6381-4EE9-95B2-C56B4E7F52D5@piuha.net> To: Arkko Jari X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] WG adoption call for draft-arkko-eap-aka-pfs X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 12:12:48 -0000 On Nov 28, 2018, at 3:32 AM, Jari Arkko wrote: > However, I think it would be useful to understand the situation: i.e. No one has gotten sued for this before. That doesn't mean they = won't get sued. The typical practice here is that the patent holders ignore the Open = Source authors. They're scattered in many countries, and have shallow = pockets. Instead, the patent holders go after the *users* of the Open = Source programs. They're often in the same jurisdiction, and have = deeper pockets. This is happening today, and has been going on for = years. =20 > The proposed specification is an extension of RFC 5448 or EAP-AKA'. = That RFC already had a similar IPR declaration from someone else, back = 10 years ago when it was being specified. Yet, the declared or other = potential IPR constraints do not appear to have slowed the adoption of = this RFC in the industry. The phone that I=E2=80=99m writing this on = implements EAP-AKA=E2=80=99 for instance. And there are open source = implementations. If it's an android phone, it doesn't implement EAP-AKA'. An Open = Source tool (wpa_supplicant) implements EAP-AKA', and the phone just = uses the library. So your phone *is* an Open Source implementation of = EAP-AKA', and everyone involved (potentially including you) is subject = to suit for patent infringement. If your phone is an iPhone, maybe they = licensed the patents. (Apple has implemented their own supplicant). > Also, a likely use case for this is in 5G, but in a (say) 5G phone = there will be other technologies, not all unencumbered. I'm happy to let *other* people agree to whatever they want for using = encumbered technologies. I have concerns with "open standards" using = non-open technologies. Some standards bodies have a habit of using encumbered technologies. = These standards bodies usually have high cost to entry, complex, obtuse = specifications, and often cross-licensing. Even if the standards bodies = don't mandate cross-licensing, the individual companies can do this: = https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2018/08/03/ericsson-lg-global-cross-licensing-a= greement-2g-3g-4g-mobile-seps/id=3D99897/ The issue for Open Source people is that everything they do is in the = open. So there's usually no patents, not the least because there's no = money for patents. Which means cross-licensing as a defence is = impossible. And the Open Source people find it difficult (in practice) = go after companies for license violations. When the other side has = lawyers on retainer, and you're trying to find funding for a new laptop, = the sales of justice are massively imbalanced. > We could do this particular extension in a different way to avoid this = particular license, but it wouldn=E2=80=99t necessarily resolve all = issues. In addition, new technical issues might arise. For instance, I = predict that the ability to perform PFS in the same number of roundtrips = for the registration exchange is important for the potential adoption of = this. I wouldn=E2=80=99t want to trade that away for instance, if using = different technology meant doing that. It is a conundrum. > Finally, I think we really need this for the users. I agree completely. > So from my perspective there=E2=80=99s a clear need for this and I see = no evidence that previous situations in this particular case have slowed = deployment in any fashion. Also, this particular extension doesn=E2=80=99t= change the overall situation with regards to EAP-AKA=E2=80=99. Does = that help reduce your concerns? It suggests that the risk may be low. But the risk is there. TBH, there's no good solution for this situation. It's needed, but at = the same time anyone using it is opening themselves to lawsuits that = they can't afford to defend, much less lose. Alan DeKok.