From nobody Sun Oct 6 17:42:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1CC12013A for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 17:42:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xgUmy1J6oISn for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 17:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x729.google.com (mail-qk1-x729.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::729]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE63D1200CE for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 17:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x729.google.com with SMTP id h126so11055669qke.10 for ; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 17:42:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3rxaxdcQVZLM2fQUOjvOjdBpB+WxdJ5jDopVk+FMyag=; b=J3WCgnqyDre7BMEhQeA750fTU7cRR+CogMVbghyVe3VAwu/tFtEDW8wyXl7YqDWao6 i1dZKZLtEzPItI72vGbL3Ruh9HceqhSe/i8WvP0wExYv3P2wthRUOS8FIZgF0F1GIsld Ljxm1xId0DgERESBP7WBTzE7EfFS3LdmcUiAkZn99iL5eXIRrWoPfmX4QAFoWlJNV5al 8/+U2eoKPT6owFhVro3ip8l7fB3xtbHu++x6d6BJ2NKlquj4oeoGxdikZHIOXvY+3DhR RQF96HyAO42YdTlnT840DLrDz8l9Jg4V2UVdtaDsyAIUXAilyR8h6aOLbvz6zDWuvkk+ ttRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3rxaxdcQVZLM2fQUOjvOjdBpB+WxdJ5jDopVk+FMyag=; b=Wyo9SKubRKE//zJj+jedHPFQufq5+WV0NZoJCZxn8hILp0dc96d3jClaOuL4IOfigu C0hjxEiy9olaGU4U1vX8DzQBtnOBjVy31/d9ym0JxBLbmu5L1YWir9xbRPhF2muejSw0 DJtIZ9Hm6w+ckazwWJugyaDNDRJ5lspUwCdTkk+6LlNzoR6QDrlwZ+KvDlLQovA4/OYj caKtBPIgafhAA/Z5MkjoaTrrktpLOJHGQDFX8XuUxcBLfltanVq0+ZKB0XYw9D3sS4DH ANUkGY0D1kIWx+MPu+dY953WL6cBOvr/LUG4dwuzMWX1ECv1tamLNwJYFQ+8Bzv1i7h+ BxkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXvMRWh/qOVhfQD+LBr0Hti6dfZuxA3zvmsIFHR3R1fa6CBlwHM Fl1V3YOR4NZMhSR7J/X9FlQ6IZAl4JASa0LGjo875w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxcfYG2tJpZ4Z7jJBnsF1BVSN8vwrUVSpqd6as+rhs6nSNu2Y7fblG6fbn64f8FRbKTRYs8bzquljhK6sW5Zr0= X-Received: by 2002:a37:67c6:: with SMTP id b189mr20626541qkc.472.1570408949788; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 17:42:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7828_1564869242_5D46027A_7828_348_1_02e001d54a45$e92ae900$bb80bb00$@augustcellars.com> <20b118932a4843b6b88e605799fafea8@aalto.fi> <211AD83C-D111-4EEB-AAF0-D9B5E521F4CF@deployingradius.com> <8F355C6F-DF1E-4E03-B75E-0F1D2508B9D4@ericsson.com> <246280B8-6E5C-484B-95BD-9C940C98C507@deployingradius.com> <17E08795-4E4E-4507-8384-836020966BCF@deployingradius.com> <634C375D-FBF3-4297-A5C0-E68C903CA34A@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <634C375D-FBF3-4297-A5C0-E68C903CA34A@ericsson.com> From: Joseph Salowey Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 17:42:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: John Mattsson Cc: Alan DeKok , "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , EMU WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009ac4f40594475317" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13 X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 00:42:33 -0000 --0000000000009ac4f40594475317 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a TLS working group draft on importing external PSKs for use with TLS - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer-01. This draft can mitigate some of the issues with using external PSKs. My suggesting is to leave the draft as is and deal with external PSKs as an update to EAP-TLS 1.3 or as a separate method. Is the current published version up to date with the rest of the comments? Thanks, Joe On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 3:42 AM John Mattsson wrote: > Hi Alan, > > I added references to RFC 8446 Section 8.1, and 8.2, and 4.2.11. Agree > that they are good to point out. > > I am not sure about the other suggestions, I am hesitant to discuss > anything detailed about TLS 1.3 that does not have a specific connection = to > EAP-TLS or are useful for users of EAP-TLS. My feeling is that adding som= e > extension, but not other would be even more confusing. The diagrams are > there to show the message flows, which have a strong connection to the EA= P > state machine. For other details I think implementors have to read RFC 84= 66. > > /John > > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > From: Alan DeKok > Date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21 > To: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , > EMU WG > Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13 > Resent from: > Resent to: John Mattsson , > Resent date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21 > > Just re-reading the text on PSK, I noticed a few things. The text > in Section 2.1.2 talks about PSK, the session ticket, and a "key_share" > extension. The accompanying diagram doesn't include any of those. I > suggest updating the diagram to include them. > > As a related note, if the PSK *is* in the resumption cache, but the > key is wrong, the cache entry should not be discarded. Otherwise an > attacker can disable caching for *all* users. This issue could be cleare= r > in this document. > > Perhaps it would be useful to add a short note in Section 5 about > security of resumption. It should reference RFC 8446 Section 8.1, and 8.= 2, > which discuss this issue. Also, Section 4.2.11 of that document has an > "Implementor's note:" which is important. > > Alan DeKok. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emu mailing list > Emu@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu > --0000000000009ac4f40594475317 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a TLS working group draft on imp= orting external PSKs for use with TLS -=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer-01.=C2=A0 This draft can mitiga= te some of the issues with using external PSKs.=C2=A0=C2=A0

<= div>My suggesting is to leave the draft as is and deal with external PSKs a= s an update to EAP-TLS 1.3 or as a separate method.=C2=A0

Is the current published version up to date with the rest of the co= mments?

Thanks,

Joe
=

= On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 3:42 AM John Mattsson <john.mattsson=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org= > wrote:
Hi A= lan,

I added references to RFC 8446 Section 8.1, and 8.2, and 4.2.11. Agree that= they are good to point out.

I am not sure about the other suggestions, I am hesitant to discuss anythin= g detailed about TLS 1.3 that does not have a specific connection to EAP-TL= S or are useful for users of EAP-TLS. My feeling is that adding some extens= ion, but not other would be even more confusing. The diagrams are there to = show the message flows, which have a strong connection to the EAP state mac= hine. For other details I think implementors have to read RFC 8466.

/John

=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
From: Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com>
Date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21
To: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@= ietf.org>, EMU WG <emu@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
Resent from: <alias-bounces@ietf.org>
Resent to: John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>, <mohit@piuha.net>
Resent date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Just re-reading the text on PSK, I noticed a few thing= s.=C2=A0 The text in Section 2.1.2 talks about PSK, the session ticket, and= a "key_share" extension.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The accompanying diagram do= esn't include any of those.=C2=A0 I suggest updating the diagram to inc= lude them.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 As a related note, if the PSK *is* in the resumption c= ache, but the key is wrong, the cache entry should not be discarded.=C2=A0 = Otherwise an attacker can disable caching for *all* users.=C2=A0 This issue= could be clearer in this document.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Perhaps it would be useful to add a short note in Sect= ion 5 about security of resumption.=C2=A0 It should reference RFC 8446 Sect= ion 8.1, and 8.2, which discuss this issue.=C2=A0 Also, Section 4.2.11 of t= hat document has an "Implementor's note:" which is important.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Alan DeKok.



_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
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charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Alan DeKok In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:10:55 -0400 Cc: "emu@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: John Mattsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13 X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 13:11:03 -0000 On Oct 7, 2019, at 2:32 AM, John Mattsson = wrote: >=20 > Joseph Salowey wrote: >=20 >> Is the current published version up to date with the rest of the = comments? >=20 > Yes, to my knowledge, the current draft handles all the other = comments. If we decide to leave EAP-TLS PSK discussions for another = draft, I think draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-07 is ready to move forward in = the publication process. I agree. My one worry is that if we update EAP-TLS without also updating PEAP = and TTLS, then bad things will happen. My $0.02 is to remove the discussion of FAST and TEAP from = draft-dekok-emu-tls-eap-types, as the remaining items are not = controversial. The document should then be published simultaneously = with the EAP-TLS updates. Alan DeKok. From nobody Mon Oct 7 07:55:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B9F120889 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 07:55:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yxWsx0tey1Fd for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 07:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F336120826 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 07:55:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2028; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1570460142; x=1571669742; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=vF0UIC7I2erff03yGMALa830n1gM3ymB8IOEdPam9gE=; b=edN84aEkc3+QpLnT6Tk+/MlWgmdsybh7DAhWuZzWTi5S7l/S1GRhxV47 73PTF5gdylWdtlHwihr7KoKrVm/Rs7qgAL3SCAIYCxdo+PJf1OHHbyv5G oy//KQQ2Tx7g28iBK4QV3y5QYj38rDxPvaFtteza7QndByH65bS2uKb7d k=; X-Files: signature.asc : 484 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AUAAB/UJtd/xbLJq1mGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQwBAQEBAQGBVgEBAQEBAQsBg10gEiqNJYdJJZslAgcBAQEJAwEBLwE?= =?us-ascii?q?BhEACgn83Bg4CAwkBAQQBAQECAQUEbYU5hUsBAQEDAXkFCwsYLlcGE4MiAYF?= =?us-ascii?q?7D61/gieFTYRoEIE0AYFSilOBf4ERJwwTgkw+gmEEhR6CJgSWI5cZgiyCMIE?= =?us-ascii?q?TkVUbgjqLU4syj2uUYYMSAgQGBQIVgWgjgVgzGggbFWUBgkE+EhAUkBc/AzA?= =?us-ascii?q?BAZFqAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.67,268,1566864000"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="17720458" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 07 Oct 2019 14:55:40 +0000 Received: from [10.61.253.33] ([10.61.253.33]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x97Etdl7030915 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Oct 2019 14:55:40 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <93830D3A-59C4-4860-BBD2-B2019BB30671@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_67260042-D1A4-414F-A6EE-40C4BC793ABC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:55:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: John Mattsson , "emu@ietf.org" To: Alan DeKok References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.253.33, [10.61.253.33] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13 X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 14:55:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_67260042-D1A4-414F-A6EE-40C4BC793ABC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 7 Oct 2019, at 15:10, Alan DeKok wrote: >=20 > On Oct 7, 2019, at 2:32 AM, John Mattsson = wrote: >>=20 >> Joseph Salowey wrote: >>=20 >>> Is the current published version up to date with the rest of the = comments? >>=20 >> Yes, to my knowledge, the current draft handles all the other = comments. If we decide to leave EAP-TLS PSK discussions for another = draft, I think draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13-07 is ready to move forward in = the publication process. >=20 > I agree. >=20 > My one worry is that if we update EAP-TLS without also updating PEAP = and TTLS, then bad things will happen. >=20 > My $0.02 is to remove the discussion of FAST and TEAP from = draft-dekok-emu-tls-eap-types, as the remaining items are not = controversial. The document should then be published simultaneously = with the EAP-TLS updates. If we evolve draft-lear-eap-teap-brski into a more generic TEAP update = we could cover TLS 1.3 there. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_67260042-D1A4-414F-A6EE-40C4BC793ABC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEyBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAl2bUesACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejPqLgf4+t5ANb+v5cLCfBQnami+PGadBp4ZLJVEuUGnXYTUdGxHv4iE8Sss4Z54 JzCAuBBZqofLMOGsopihFOIeczMj0sCNu6/f8Dm4l7OzwBYRyJmgWvTLMBk+qoPl XgVmAX9jNBQQf98osTrWn7Z5bspVLhs1tDDYeh0SNRC1Fxagugr5FwNWA6aepaiX X342ruQLSL2aY9sQuUAXIApQqiZmQp49fnzUOruIP8M/EEKhdUWHF8xlhUqsUUHa Vnap2C4ikwq8J4kPA6+ccm9RUr+K8kl4WvX/W46j6b1G1lstH4q9OSN6Fw8/8EOP FGjSyO66Vx4sU/VQxnicz++A6ECg =iudv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_67260042-D1A4-414F-A6EE-40C4BC793ABC-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 09:28:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4BA2120827 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:28:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dDzCXwvQgEcy for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.networkradius.com (mail.networkradius.com [62.210.147.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5312812080E for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.46.58] (24-52-251-6.cable.teksavvy.com [24.52.251.6]) by mail.networkradius.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E26DC713; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:28:46 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: NetworkRADIUS; dmarc=none header.from=deployingradius.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Alan DeKok In-Reply-To: <93830D3A-59C4-4860-BBD2-B2019BB30671@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:28:45 -0400 Cc: John Mattsson , "emu@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <93830D3A-59C4-4860-BBD2-B2019BB30671@cisco.com> To: Eliot Lear X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13 X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 16:28:54 -0000 On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:55 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > If we evolve draft-lear-eap-teap-brski into a more generic TEAP update = we could cover TLS 1.3 there. Given Jouni's experience with implementing TEAP, that may be best. i.e. TEAP cannot be implemented as-is. The spec needs to be updated = so that we can create inter-operable versions. Alan DeKok. From nobody Mon Oct 7 21:45:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F21120111 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 21:45:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aAGhqs_rX9D4 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 21:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82f.google.com (mail-qt1-x82f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFA4712000F for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 21:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82f.google.com with SMTP id u40so23124319qth.11 for ; Mon, 07 Oct 2019 21:45:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=P67oGfNSzQwBndaHx8Qbmt4Oeqw7iKUAh0OKhLlV1sQ=; b=VQO3O+cym8DCdS8pAF96PtIGgxYfx00GS66j6xDYsuE2YOagRVJtryXZEELDYU1ur5 UNKK+LFye/8JvCRsqmpeA6jafcKw8vZ/6fCcaFw1ekGnqx/sbNv0chxcDpgHqaAFzuB7 ndMyFR0XEHdyIxChM3DdWKCNSWsVuKWq16kX89rCu+xKqp6GrNfTJ82NSZs+V7Bl+GgS BHjjRRnMY8khuaCvn3TazQttAKQuyPQK3rD4EFuXrAF+Wxkni5UisGbuzqW+ZAVMDHcQ 76y3tD2Q7k2wmstYcxnKrvVVH1je+WLn/knWruajo+WtNpH+KOe+KJVSo72Y39FM/UP1 A/XA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=P67oGfNSzQwBndaHx8Qbmt4Oeqw7iKUAh0OKhLlV1sQ=; b=m3Zujb5XgjxCYcjieKOuvRFho/VJwrjzKizYuhtJATnvXcLSvwI/MXwX2OedtIFwN6 U99cCKkBa0nafFAB1QPqtwRfP1CnHBzqyZ5oaIo2EpZoHA8B0eh8bdkHUUglFySM/hZR pu4h11EssOyDQD6GYIXyfD6x44tmRzfSlOcZg+8yV6rSOXTSeCgi5g1RKIu+qAL9FyJB Qi0qQRKRIwjOIr1f6msVb+s0Z6QrEyN1/hDEgnU9ArNgqcSaJQA3MXihFIscN23dl9Y9 o4K/w+BwI98mr2U4psTyFsvUVXdOY1ia5nthFJAm1io1RiR+wcihzkvx0lMsxijn4pTA VpYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUpzKEhdEYdZsxMqD2DMxJjTDS7UjkDW3465v6//nuvOSuLOcja /6Rlg8/RwH6QG2DvujCQCL1r715zCNGCsNZvnC3fKEdP X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy0RGO5pSHg9zZBxdqVZFHgBwnprzITNvR2dE31946oEErZwIDLX3tkN27AOTX5sPazikYfUbLdYkiMCzhx98Q= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:224b:: with SMTP id p11mr34075457qtp.38.1570509911816; Mon, 07 Oct 2019 21:45:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Joseph Salowey Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 21:45:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: EMU WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000069114005945ed5f6" Archived-At: Subject: [Emu] TEAP Errata 5768 X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 04:45:16 -0000 --00000000000069114005945ed5f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" We need to come to resolution on how to resolve these errata. I hope there has been enough time for implementors to catch up with Jouni's implementation. The Crypto-Binding TLV is fixed at 20 octets and the draft does not say how to handle longer MACs. The discussion seems to indicate that we should make the TLV variable length to handle longer MACs. Is anyone else taking this approach with their implementation? Is there any objection to move forward with making the MAC variable length? Cheers, Joe --00000000000069114005945ed5f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We need to come to resolution on how to resolve these erra= ta.=C2=A0 I hope there has been enough time for implementors to catch up wi= th Jouni's=C2=A0implementation.=C2=A0=C2=A0

The Cryp= to-Binding TLV is fixed at 20 octets and the draft does not say how to hand= le longer MACs.=C2=A0=C2=A0

The discussion seems t= o indicate that we should make the TLV variable length to handle longer MAC= s.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Is anyone else taking this approach= with their implementation?

Is there any objection= to move forward with making the MAC variable length?=C2=A0=C2=A0

Cheers,

Joe
--00000000000069114005945ed5f6-- From nobody Tue Oct 8 04:03:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 545361200B7 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 04:03:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qAE9YwkKPbYv for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 04:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.networkradius.com (mail.networkradius.com [62.210.147.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5764D120089 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 04:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.46.58] (24-52-251-6.cable.teksavvy.com [24.52.251.6]) by mail.networkradius.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 148ED41B; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 11:03:43 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: NetworkRADIUS; dmarc=none header.from=deployingradius.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Alan DeKok In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:03:42 -0400 Cc: EMU WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5F8EEC35-B7C8-4418-92C9-487D245AEAC3@deployingradius.com> References: To: Joseph Salowey X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] TEAP Errata 5768 X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 11:03:48 -0000 On Oct 8, 2019, at 12:45 AM, Joseph Salowey wrote: >=20 > We need to come to resolution on how to resolve these errata. I hope = there has been enough time for implementors to catch up with Jouni's = implementation. =20 Me and my team have been busy, so no progress here. > The Crypto-Binding TLV is fixed at 20 octets and the draft does not = say how to handle longer MACs. =20 >=20 > The discussion seems to indicate that we should make the TLV variable = length to handle longer MACs. =20 >=20 > Is anyone else taking this approach with their implementation? I will, and I think it's a good idea. > Is there any objection to move forward with making the MAC variable = length? =20 No. Alan DeKok. From nobody Tue Oct 8 22:46:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1358312004D for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 22:46:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hwmykRIOgVWq for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 22:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDB17120019 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 22:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id h126so1087480qke.10 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 22:46:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pmHC0tcqhPk5RR2/mBWkpIOiZ5Nc62AkBBjF0WGf8J4=; b=d+ptIcEKGsxICRrfBtKDGPhWHJ8XKyi+P6p/5l9cRWwtUjthWPmc5XqYdRtP/coxwX 33mUsLSIecfVQ9TtjH09V1DdapRs3VtPoJVKeV9UgwlTlGEHucMEEAvEdfRuo1V/FQbo S0SDWk4vHKnsjNGzGdIaEWTSNLDhM8QwRMr/lO1s5ExDUTsFdTG/bkYKlWRdr1QNIyqw iGDPOTSNioWALSVWHFTwMZQCFnap9h6+nNX7rhRfG5KblvajEbzWopckb1Yz2LE4vOrI cFGZLHG76cpDsQzcuusFKvyexsuZ4QyJ7rwWi3GywK6rJ0KN6xmx+tnQL6l76G9Z1l4F YY7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pmHC0tcqhPk5RR2/mBWkpIOiZ5Nc62AkBBjF0WGf8J4=; b=X7KGWSrRkENHOilQyEQ6qcklhX8ncorUDJSGin7fnG/19CjAUqFcTnn/rQcmn6uTZk 3r0NkvOh+SZTqCr533h4sDE89RHzp0ZmGSLnrshvJTchByigm8IjqHViHIM1K7WcAEc4 b3vPx3O3zAOU+qY47Ssh2Auw4yJC09Q1GcqfHqqTMIqG97d5wsbd1GUdNgBoBRH9pkrH s5k6TgUanxNm1ViTpKIIZGRInGJgXgzY8C8WeNiBvhWxAt7gQKhOgLKsQM0149bPQDA6 pOlSOcl5MRcr+oSb0bvDTY0efqxhLGX+JuaQzyLghQIu//r5xkjsJaOloHy+m/LmYNBv Ao6w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVU/ADCCOgugJjospekKsQwkZ60LCH045sCaV5dXXLLeNkazwJD 2VaAZ1dfrETboGCLSlL5GyU/F/K4+il9MboN5tLrkgQFGlk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzYDHjDRaWPH+LyMmhWemOFUpw6lZsZx6SlKGBLXYZ6pOOl3WSFrcqazScI2y8sauoFIv/NW9W0r/KMNbUcLiE= X-Received: by 2002:a37:9442:: with SMTP id w63mr1966955qkd.138.1570599998636; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 22:46:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Joseph Salowey Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 22:46:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: EMU WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000000d896059473cfc5" Archived-At: Subject: [Emu] TEAP errata 5770 X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 05:46:42 -0000 --00000000000000d896059473cfc5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Based on Jouni's analysis the derivation of the S-IMCKs is not well specified. To me it looks like the solution to handle an arbitrary number of methods that may or may not make an EMSK available would be fairly complex. I think the most straight forward solution is to either always assume that for an EMSK generating method the EMSK is either always available or always unavailable. It seems that it is safer to always assume that the EMSK is unavailable and will therefore never be used. I think this has the following implications: - The S-IMCK is always generated from the inner method MSK or the all-zero value if the method does not generate key material. - The EMSK compound MAC is not used - Implementations must have a policy that accepts MSK MACs It would appear that from a cryptographic analysis point of view the MSK and EMSK are equivalent since these keys will only be used in these TEAP calculations and not for other purposes. There are documented drawbacks of using the MSK described in RFC7029 ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7029#page-12). If the properties of the EMSK binding are needed in the use cases currently under consideration then I think we could redefine the way the EMSK MAC to be computed from the EMSK of the inner method changing the above to - The S-IMCK is always generated from the inner method MSK or the all-zero value if the method does not generate key material. - Compute EMSK MAC from the inner-method EMSK instead of the S-IMCK Compound-MAC = MAC( EMSK[J], BUFFER ) - Implementations have a policy that prevents EMSK downgrade to MSK Hopefully there is a more elegant solution. Any ideas? Joe --00000000000000d896059473cfc5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Based on Jouni's=C2=A0analysis the derivation of the S= -IMCKs is not well specified.=C2=A0 To me it looks like the solution to ha= ndle an arbitrary number of methods that may or may not make an EMSK availa= ble would be fairly complex.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I think the mos= t straight forward solution is to either always assume that for an EMSK gen= erating method the EMSK is either always available or always unavailable.= =C2=A0 It seems that it is safer to always assume that the EMSK is unavaila= ble and will therefore never be used.=C2=A0 I think this has the following = implications:

-=C2=A0 The S-IMCK is always generat= ed from the inner method MSK=C2=A0or the all-zero value if the method does = not generate key material.=C2=A0
-=C2=A0 The EMSK compound MAC is= not used
-=C2=A0 Implementations must have a policy that accepts= MSK MACs

It would appear that from a cryptographi= c analysis point of view the MSK and EMSK are equivalent since these keys w= ill only be used in these TEAP=C2=A0calculations and not for other purposes= .=C2=A0 There are documented drawbacks of using the MSK described in RFC702= 9 (https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/rfc7029#page-12).=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the properties of the EMSK= binding are needed in the use cases currently under consideration then I t= hink we could redefine the way the EMSK MAC to be computed from the EMSK of= the inner method changing the above to=C2=A0

= -=C2=A0 The S-IMCK is always generated from the inner method MSK=C2=A0or th= e all-zero value if the method does not generate key material.=C2=A0
<= div>- Compute EMSK MAC from the inner-method EMSK instead of the S-IMCK
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Compound-MAC =3D MAC( EMSK[J], BUFFER )
-=C2=A0 Implementations have a po= licy that prevents EMSK downgrade to MSK
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Hopefully there is a more elegant solution. Any ideas?

Joe
--00000000000000d896059473cfc5-- From nobody Wed Oct 9 23:38:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: emu@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4288F1200DF for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 23:38:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JHen4GE4KkEV for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 23:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 145081200DB for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 23:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id f16so4591029qkl.9 for ; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 23:38:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=salowey-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=/f6GR4ivb3GUjS4TyIceLKiZ8LfkHD9dAQIhRVdnB5w=; b=soqFvmSeq7n+2tQvMwy9os8Prboqj7gWS6Xe2enlIypiKgOQRS6xHV0q5DO3P8yXw2 h0YXWwqb22iEux+lXg9B+w4LbPOHAMWgwNz5RKtMl99XDwUVYj1Zpmb3JffC02CnzcKN Ri/gFKCppKEeNGJ/y7Wj6a+pLyO7lS1qLB08Ht3qEsBT4Y7of5jqP2/PmWi4foMKH52W 8GFtbIvIpwamixz5mpHF1mwkgGZj3oLg4+4yN6UFYMYKLKt09zMNvAyfLSAu+LaKu7u8 atg/kGxavT6fr3f54thQlEkVSiViJttVcERjCvTTJUrHpFtVTohg2HPESFHs2aD0SNyh vJ+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=/f6GR4ivb3GUjS4TyIceLKiZ8LfkHD9dAQIhRVdnB5w=; b=N+09IhOilbXjP1YNV4Coj3MC/b4UzrjZPBs01hNaNlY7MbGelIvInpWTVM+PldqI91 B4meh1V9Q7CcIMsiNycekkUVvIdkdqU9HguScvuEuPc4CBMz1lahb5tXAjBbGGJHLBNX 5nZ6S3QWS/AMY7n4Fg7vyPYqxmaiIxz+u1AIoqPpWvONzkY/KBe5c/J96UbJ3SDx+Bdl Tm4pw1SjX4Vkl292z4b8CMnh3LIGd7BQEgReMsQIX1wDQt9320LhDt6Jzq7xWgk0mLmB BC8iHzqzOXJln7cXGcQRIfiUR1+9YxjVXUtJdhksIm3dUFNSsayJ32hbe3KRlwfVGUo7 OXZg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW8k4qLroioF6VIh+7NAFXblN6+V2MtmXz8mdYn++pjeMoaEGty JXpNNDaSUucnSdWrRxkJNV1A1tXVh86oUAoZGdqkousphW8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyykprbHtwib9zyz/IznAlvxZHVr3GGz0ZrgPmUO9YKuOy5OMBiJ398Ud3hcKD8q8krlPBSwyJ2C5i9GCCYk54= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:ea08:: with SMTP id f8mr8026327qkg.416.1570689523817; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 23:38:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Joseph Salowey Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 23:38:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: EMU WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001eaec6059488a781" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Emu] TEAP errata 5770 X-BeenThere: emu@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAP Methods Update \(EMU\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 06:38:47 -0000 --0000000000001eaec6059488a781 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 10:46 PM Joseph Salowey wrote: > Based on Jouni's analysis the derivation of the S-IMCKs is not well > specified. To me it looks like the solution to handle an arbitrary number > of methods that may or may not make an EMSK available would be fairly > complex. > > I think the most straight forward solution is to either always assume that > for an EMSK generating method the EMSK is either always available or always > unavailable. It seems that it is safer to always assume that the EMSK is > unavailable and will therefore never be used. I think this has the > following implications: > > - The S-IMCK is always generated from the inner method MSK or the > all-zero value if the method does not generate key material. > - The EMSK compound MAC is not used > - Implementations must have a policy that accepts MSK MACs > > It would appear that from a cryptographic analysis point of view the MSK > and EMSK are equivalent since these keys will only be used in these > TEAP calculations and not for other purposes. There are documented > drawbacks of using the MSK described in RFC7029 ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7029#page-12). If the properties of the > EMSK binding are needed in the use cases currently under consideration then > I think we could redefine the way the EMSK MAC to be computed from the EMSK > of the inner method changing the above to > > - The S-IMCK is always generated from the inner method MSK or the > all-zero value if the method does not generate key material. > - Compute EMSK MAC from the inner-method EMSK instead of the S-IMCK > Compound-MAC = MAC( EMSK[J], BUFFER ) > - Implementations have a policy that prevents EMSK downgrade to MSK > > Hopefully there is a more elegant solution. Any ideas? > > [Joe] It might be better to do the following: Singe S-IMCK chain, but when an EMSK method is used there are two pre S-IMCK keys generated, one for the EMSK and one for the MSK. These are used to calculate two CMKs for Compound MACs for EMSK and MSK respectively. If the server responds with an EMSK MAC then the pre S-IMCK generated from the EMSK is used as the S-IMCK for future calculations if not then the one from the MSK is used. Modification to section 5.2 Intermediate Compound Key Derivations: When an EMSK generating method is used, then two compound MAC keys are generated, one based on the IMSK with the EMSK from the current method and on from the MSK from the current method as follows: S-IMCK[j-1] = compound session key from previous method: IMSK-EMSK[J] = First 32 octets of TLS-PRF(EMSK, "TEAPbindkey@ietf.org" | "\0" | 64) IMSK-MSK = MSK IMCK-EMSK[j] = TLS-PRF(S-IMCK[j-1], "Inner Methods Compound Keys", IMSK-EMSK[j], 60) S-IMCK-EMSK[j] = first 40 octets of IMCK-EMSK[j] CMK-EMSK[j] = last 20 octets of IMCK-EMSK[j] IMCK-MSK[j] = TLS-PRF(S-IMCK[j-1], "Inner Methods Compound Keys", IMSK-MSK[j], 60) S-IMCK-MSK[j] = first 40 octets of IMCK-EMSK[j] CMK-MSK[j] = last 20 octets of IMCK-EMSK[j] CMK-MSK[J] is used to calculate the MSK compound MAC CMK-EMSK[J] is used to calculate the EMSK compound MAC If the EMSK MAC is returned form the server then the S-IMCK[j] = S-IMCK-EMSK[j] else S-IMCK[j] = S-IMCK-MSK[j] Modifications to 5.3. Computing the Compound MAC The Compound MAC EMSK computation is as follows: CMK-EMSK = CMK-EMSK[j] Compound-MAC-EMSK = MAC( CMK-EMSK, BUFFER ) The Compound MAC MSK computation is as follows: CMK-MSK = CMK-MSK[j] Compound-MAC-MSK = MAC( CMK-MSK, BUFFER ) I think this is more in line with what was originally intended and better than what I originally wrote in the previous message. > Joe > --0000000000001eaec6059488a781 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= br>
On Tue,= Oct 8, 2019 at 10:46 PM Joseph Salowey <joe@salowey.net> wrote:
Based on Jouni's= =C2=A0analysis the derivation of the S-IMCKs is not well specified.=C2=A0 T= o me it looks like the solution to handle an arbitrary number of methods t= hat may or may not make an EMSK available would be fairly complex.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

I think the most straight forward solution is to eit= her always assume that for an EMSK generating method the EMSK is either alw= ays available or always unavailable.=C2=A0 It seems that it is safer to alw= ays assume that the EMSK is unavailable and will therefore never be used.= =C2=A0 I think this has the following implications:

-=C2=A0 The S-IMCK is always generated from the inner method MSK=C2=A0or = the all-zero value if the method does not generate key material.=C2=A0
-=C2=A0 The EMSK compound MAC is not used
-=C2=A0 Implement= ations must have a policy that accepts MSK MACs

It= would appear that from a cryptographic analysis point of view the MSK and = EMSK are equivalent since these keys will only be used in these TEAP=C2=A0c= alculations and not for other purposes.=C2=A0 There are documented drawback= s of using the MSK described in RFC7029 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7029= #page-12).=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the properties of the EMSK binding are needed= in the use cases currently under consideration then I think we could redef= ine the way the EMSK MAC to be computed from the EMSK of the inner method c= hanging the above to=C2=A0

-=C2=A0 The S-IMCK = is always generated from the inner method MSK=C2=A0or the all-zero value if= the method does not generate key material.=C2=A0
- Compute EMSK = MAC from the inner-method EMSK instead of the S-IMCK
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Compound-MAC= =3D MAC( EMSK[J], BUFFER )
-=C2=A0 Implementations have a policy that prevents = EMSK downgrade to MSK
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Hopefully the= re is a more elegant solution. Any ideas?


[Joe] It might be better to do the fol= lowing:

Singe S-IMCK chain, but when an EMSK metho= d is used there are two pre S-IMCK keys generated, one for the EMSK and one= for the MSK.=C2=A0 These are used to calculate two CMKs for Compound MACs = for EMSK and MSK respectively.=C2=A0 If the server responds with an EMSK MA= C then the pre S-IMCK generated from the EMSK is used as the S-IMCK for fut= ure calculations if not then the one from the MSK is used.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Modification to section 5.2 Intermediate Compound Key Derivations:

When an EMSK generating method is used, then two compound = MAC keys are generated, one based on the IMSK with the EMSK from the curren= t method and on from the MSK=C2=A0from the current method as follows:
= 

 S-=
IMCK[j-1] =3D compound session key from previous method:
 IMSK-EMSK[J] =3D First 32 octets of=
 TLS-PRF(EMSK, "TEAPbindkey@ie=
tf.org" | "\0" | 64)
 IMSK-MSK =3D MSK

 IMCK-EMSK[j] =3D TLS-PRF(S-IMCK[j-1], "Inner Methods Compoun=
d Keys", IMSK-EMSK[j], 60)
           S-IMCK-EMSK[j] =3D first 40 octets of IMCK-EMSK[j]
           CMK-EMSK[j] =3D last 20 octets of IMCK-EMSK[j]
<= span style=3D"font-size:1em;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
IMCK-MSK[j] =3D TLS-PRF(= S-IMCK[j-1], "Inner Methods Compound Keys", IMSK-MSK[j], 60) S-IMCK-MSK[j] =3D first 40 octets of IMCK-EMSK[j] CMK-MSK[j] =3D last 20 octets of IMCK-EMSK[j]

=C2=A0 CMK-MSK[J] is used to calculat=
e the MSK compound MAC

=C2=A0 CMK-EMSK[J] is used to calculate the EMSK compound =
MAC=C2=A0

If the EMSK MAC is returned form the server then the=C2=A0

=C2=A0S-IMCK[j] =3D S-IMCK-EMSK[j]

else
=C2=A0 S-IMCK[j] =3D S-IMCK-MSK[j]

Modificat=
ions to=C2=A0 5.3.=C2=A0 Computing the Compound MAC

The Compound MAC EMSK computation is as follows:

      CMK-EMSK =3D CMK-EMSK[j]
      Compound-MAC-EMSK =3D MAC( CMK-EMSK, BUFFER )

The Compound MAC MSK computation is as follows:

      CMK-MSK =3D CMK-MSK[j]
      Compound-MAC-MSK =3D MAC( CMK-MSK, BUFFER )

I think this is more in line with what=
 was originally intended and better than what I originally wrote in the pre=
vious message.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Joe




--0000000000001eaec6059488a781--


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From: Eliot Lear 
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Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:14:30 +0200
In-Reply-To: 
Cc: John Mattsson , "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , EMU WG 
To: Joseph Salowey 
References: <7828_1564869242_5D46027A_7828_348_1_02e001d54a45$e92ae900$bb80bb00$@augustcellars.com> <20b118932a4843b6b88e605799fafea8@aalto.fi> <211AD83C-D111-4EEB-AAF0-D9B5E521F4CF@deployingradius.com> <8F355C6F-DF1E-4E03-B75E-0F1D2508B9D4@ericsson.com> <246280B8-6E5C-484B-95BD-9C940C98C507@deployingradius.com>  <17E08795-4E4E-4507-8384-836020966BCF@deployingradius.com> <634C375D-FBF3-4297-A5C0-E68C903CA34A@ericsson.com> 
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Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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Hi Joe,

> On 7 Oct 2019, at 02:42, Joseph Salowey  wrote:
>=20
> There is a TLS working group draft on importing external PSKs for use =
with TLS - =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer-01 =
.  =
This draft can mitigate some of the issues with using external PSKs.
>=20
> My suggesting is to leave the draft as is and deal with external PSKs =
as an update to EAP-TLS 1.3 or as a separate method.


Before we nail this down, it seems like we need to have a discussion =
about how best to onboard wired IoT devices in particular from an =
on-prem view.  The issue here is that EAP-TLS-PSK is useful for that =
purpose, as we discussed.  Now there is nothing particularly special =
about PSK and we could run with a naked public key pair as well in 1.3, =
but we have to choose something.  The fundamental question is what does =
a manufacturer stamp into the device and what is placed on a label.  We =
have a running example of DPP doing this for wireless with public key =
code, but that doesn=E2=80=99t get us to proper onboarding for wired =E2=80=
=93 the signaling just isn=E2=80=99t there.

Also, maybe it=E2=80=99s me, but I remain uncomfortable about this group =
constraining TLS 1.3.

Eliot

>=20
> Is the current published version up to date with the rest of the =
comments?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Joe
>=20
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 3:42 AM John Mattsson =
> wrote:
> Hi Alan,
>=20
> I added references to RFC 8446 Section 8.1, and 8.2, and 4.2.11. Agree =
that they are good to point out.
>=20
> I am not sure about the other suggestions, I am hesitant to discuss =
anything detailed about TLS 1.3 that does not have a specific connection =
to EAP-TLS or are useful for users of EAP-TLS. My feeling is that adding =
some extension, but not other would be even more confusing. The diagrams =
are there to show the message flows, which have a strong connection to =
the EAP state machine. For other details I think implementors have to =
read RFC 8466.
>=20
> /John
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Alan DeKok >
> Date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21
> To: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org =
" =
>, EMU WG >
> Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
> Resent from: >
> Resent to: John Mattsson >, >
> Resent date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21
>=20
>       Just re-reading the text on PSK, I noticed a few things.  The =
text in Section 2.1.2 talks about PSK, the session ticket, and a =
"key_share" extension.   The accompanying diagram doesn't include any of =
those.  I suggest updating the diagram to include them.
>=20
>       As a related note, if the PSK *is* in the resumption cache, but =
the key is wrong, the cache entry should not be discarded.  Otherwise an =
attacker can disable caching for *all* users.  This issue could be =
clearer in this document.
>=20
>       Perhaps it would be useful to add a short note in Section 5 =
about security of resumption.  It should reference RFC 8446 Section 8.1, =
and 8.2, which discuss this issue.  Also, Section 4.2.11 of that =
document has an "Implementor's note:" which is important.
>=20
>       Alan DeKok.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Emu mailing list
> Emu@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu =

> _______________________________________________
> Emu mailing list
> Emu@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


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Hi =
Joe,

On 7 Oct 2019, at 02:42, Joseph Salowey =
<joe@salowey.net> =
wrote:

There =
is a TLS working group draft on importing external PSKs for use with TLS =
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importe=
r-01.  This draft can mitigate some of the issues with using =
external PSKs.  

My suggesting is to leave the draft as is and deal with =
external PSKs as an update to EAP-TLS 1.3 or as a separate =
method. 


Before we nail this down, it =
seems like we need to have a discussion about how best to onboard wired =
IoT devices in particular from an on-prem view.  The issue here is =
that EAP-TLS-PSK is useful for that purpose, as we discussed.  Now =
there is nothing particularly special about PSK and we could run with a =
naked public key pair as well in 1.3, but we have to choose something. =
 The fundamental question is what does a manufacturer stamp into =
the device and what is placed on a label.  We have a running =
example of DPP doing this for wireless with public key code, but that =
doesn=E2=80=99t get us to proper onboarding for wired =E2=80=93 the =
signaling just isn=E2=80=99t there.

Also, maybe it=E2=80=99s me, but I remain =
uncomfortable about this group constraining TLS 1.3.

Eliot 


Is the current published version up to date with the rest of =
the comments?

Thanks,

Joe

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 3:42 AM John =
Mattsson <john.mattsson=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi Alan,



I added references to RFC 8446 Section 8.1, and 8.2, and 4.2.11. Agree =
that they are good to point out.



I am not sure about the other suggestions, I am hesitant to discuss =
anything detailed about TLS 1.3 that does not have a specific connection =
to EAP-TLS or are useful for users of EAP-TLS. My feeling is that adding =
some extension, but not other would be even more confusing. The diagrams =
are there to show the message flows, which have a strong connection to =
the EAP state machine. For other details I think implementors have to =
read RFC 8466.



/John



=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----

From: Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com>

Date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21

To: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" =
<draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org>, EMU WG <emu@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13

Resent from: <alias-bounces@ietf.org>
=

Resent to: John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>, <mohit@piuha.net>

Resent date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21



      Just re-reading the text on PSK, I noticed a few =
things.  The text in Section 2.1.2 talks about PSK, the session =
ticket, and a "key_share" extension.   The accompanying =
diagram doesn't include any of those.  I suggest updating the =
diagram to include them.



      As a related note, if the PSK *is* in the =
resumption cache, but the key is wrong, the cache entry should not be =
discarded.  Otherwise an attacker can disable caching for *all* =
users.  This issue could be clearer in this document.



      Perhaps it would be useful to add a short note in =
Section 5 about security of resumption.  It should reference RFC =
8446 Section 8.1, and 8.2, which discuss this issue.  Also, Section =
4.2.11 of that document has an "Implementor's note:" which is =
important.



      Alan DeKok.







_______________________________________________

Emu mailing list

Emu@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu



_______________________________________________
Emu =
mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu

=

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From: John Mattsson 
To: Eliot Lear , Joseph Salowey 
CC: John Mattsson , "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , EMU WG 
Thread-Topic: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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From: Eliot Lear 
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Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:51:21 +0200
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Cc: Joseph Salowey , John Mattsson , "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , EMU WG 
To: John Mattsson 
References: <7828_1564869242_5D46027A_7828_348_1_02e001d54a45$e92ae900$bb80bb00$@augustcellars.com> <20b118932a4843b6b88e605799fafea8@aalto.fi> <211AD83C-D111-4EEB-AAF0-D9B5E521F4CF@deployingradius.com> <8F355C6F-DF1E-4E03-B75E-0F1D2508B9D4@ericsson.com> <246280B8-6E5C-484B-95BD-9C940C98C507@deployingradius.com>  <17E08795-4E4E-4507-8384-836020966BCF@deployingradius.com> <634C375D-FBF3-4297-A5C0-E68C903CA34A@ericsson.com>   <40D7307B-E302-4379-9013-C8B300A09050@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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I do think this is where we can make TEAP=E2=80=99s sweet spot.  But we =
should avoid differences in TLS implementations between TEAP and =
EAP-TLS.  That just complicates libraries.  And it=E2=80=99s for that =
same reason that I=E2=80=99m just a bit nervous about us constraining =
TLS 1.3.  Put another way: before we do so we have to answer this =
question: what is so different about EAP than other TLS applications?  =
If the answer is =E2=80=9Cnothing=E2=80=9D for a particular case, then =
either we have it wrong or TLS 1.3 has it wrong, and we should sort =
that.

Eliot

> On 10 Oct 2019, at 09:44, John Mattsson  =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Eliot,
>=20
> I agree that the question boils down to IoT. There are currently a lot =
of IoT systems using PSK, and many of them will likely want to stay on =
PSK, rather than migrating to RPK. Using a protocol with PFS is nowadays =
recommended practice. EAP-PSK does not provide PFS, and EAP-PWD is not =
suitable for IoT. I strongly think we need an EAP method with PSK + PFS =
for IoT, and the easiest way to achieve that seems to be EAP-TLS-PSK.
>=20
> Cheers,
> John
>=20
> From: Eliot Lear >
> Date: Thursday, 10 October 2019 at 09:14
> To: Joseph Salowey >
> Cc: John Mattsson >, =
"draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org =
" =
>, EMU WG >
> Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
> Resent from: >
> Resent to: John Mattsson >, >
> Resent date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 00:14:49 -0700 (PDT)
>=20
> Hi Joe,
>=20
>=20
>> On 7 Oct 2019, at 02:42, Joseph Salowey > wrote:
>>=20
>> There is a TLS working group draft on importing external PSKs for use =
with TLS - =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer-01 =
.  =
This draft can mitigate some of the issues with using external PSKs.
>>=20
>> My suggesting is to leave the draft as is and deal with external PSKs =
as an update to EAP-TLS 1.3 or as a separate method.
>=20
>=20
> Before we nail this down, it seems like we need to have a discussion =
about how best to onboard wired IoT devices in particular from an =
on-prem view.  The issue here is that EAP-TLS-PSK is useful for that =
purpose, as we discussed.  Now there is nothing particularly special =
about PSK and we could run with a naked public key pair as well in 1.3, =
but we have to choose something.  The fundamental question is what does =
a manufacturer stamp into the device and what is placed on a label.  We =
have a running example of DPP doing this for wireless with public key =
code, but that doesn=E2=80=99t get us to proper onboarding for wired =E2=80=
=93 the signaling just isn=E2=80=99t there.
>=20
> Also, maybe it=E2=80=99s me, but I remain uncomfortable about this =
group constraining TLS 1.3.
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Is the current published version up to date with the rest of the =
comments?
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> Joe
>>=20
>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 3:42 AM John Mattsson =
> wrote:
>>> Hi Alan,
>>>=20
>>> I added references to RFC 8446 Section 8.1, and 8.2, and 4.2.11. =
Agree that they are good to point out.
>>>=20
>>> I am not sure about the other suggestions, I am hesitant to discuss =
anything detailed about TLS 1.3 that does not have a specific connection =
to EAP-TLS or are useful for users of EAP-TLS. My feeling is that adding =
some extension, but not other would be even more confusing. The diagrams =
are there to show the message flows, which have a strong connection to =
the EAP state machine. For other details I think implementors have to =
read RFC 8466.
>>>=20
>>> /John
>>>=20
>>> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
>>> From: Alan DeKok >
>>> Date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21
>>> To: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org =
" =
>, EMU WG >
>>> Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
>>> Resent from: >
>>> Resent to: John Mattsson >, >
>>> Resent date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21
>>>=20
>>>       Just re-reading the text on PSK, I noticed a few things.  The =
text in Section 2.1.2 talks about PSK, the session ticket, and a =
"key_share" extension.   The accompanying diagram doesn't include any of =
those.  I suggest updating the diagram to include them.
>>>=20
>>>       As a related note, if the PSK *is* in the resumption cache, =
but the key is wrong, the cache entry should not be discarded.  =
Otherwise an attacker can disable caching for *all* users.  This issue =
could be clearer in this document.
>>>=20
>>>       Perhaps it would be useful to add a short note in Section 5 =
about security of resumption.  It should reference RFC 8446 Section 8.1, =
and 8.2, which discuss this issue.  Also, Section 4.2.11 of that =
document has an "Implementor's note:" which is important.
>>>=20
>>>       Alan DeKok.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emu mailing list
>>> Emu@ietf.org 
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu =

>> _______________________________________________
>> Emu mailing list
>> Emu@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


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I =
do think this is where we can make TEAP=E2=80=99s sweet spot.  But =
we should avoid differences in TLS implementations between TEAP and =
EAP-TLS.  That just complicates libraries.  And it=E2=80=99s =
for that same reason that I=E2=80=99m just a bit nervous about us =
constraining TLS 1.3.  Put another way: before we do so we have to =
answer this question: what is so different about EAP than other TLS =
applications?  If the answer is =E2=80=9Cnothing=E2=80=9D for a =
particular case, then either we have it wrong or TLS 1.3 has it wrong, =
and we should sort that.

Eliot

On 10 Oct 2019, at 09:44, John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi Eliot,
 
I agree that the question =
boils down to IoT. There are currently a lot of IoT systems using PSK, =
and many of them will likely want to stay on PSK, rather than migrating =
to RPK. Using a protocol with PFS is nowadays recommended practice. =
EAP-PSK does not provide PFS, and EAP-PWD is not suitable for IoT. I =
strongly think we need an EAP method with PSK + PFS for IoT, and the =
easiest way to achieve that seems to be EAP-TLS-PSK.
 
Cheers,
John
 
From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, 10 October =
2019 at 09:14
To: Joseph Salowey <joe@salowey.net>
Cc: John =
Mattsson <john.mattsson=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org>, EMU WG <emu@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC =
Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
Resent =
from: <alias-bounces@ietf.org>
Resent to: John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>, <mohit@piuha.net>
Resent date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 =
00:14:49 -0700 (PDT)
 
Hi Joe,


On 7 Oct 2019, at 02:42, Joseph Salowey =
<joe@salowey.net> =
wrote:
 
There is =
a TLS working group draft on importing external PSKs for use with TLS =
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importe=
r-01.  This draft can mitigate some of the issues with using =
external PSKs.  
 
My suggesting is to leave the draft as is and =
deal with external PSKs as an update to EAP-TLS 1.3 or as a separate =
method. 
 
 
Before we nail this down, it seems like =
we need to have a discussion about how best to onboard wired IoT devices =
in particular from an on-prem view.  The issue here is that =
EAP-TLS-PSK is useful for that purpose, as we discussed.  Now there =
is nothing particularly special about PSK and we could run with a naked =
public key pair as well in 1.3, but we have to choose something. =
 The fundamental question is what does a manufacturer stamp into =
the device and what is placed on a label.  We have a running =
example of DPP doing this for wireless with public key code, but that =
doesn=E2=80=99t get us to proper onboarding for wired =E2=80=93 the =
signaling just isn=E2=80=99t there.
 
Also, maybe it=E2=80=99s me, but I remain =
uncomfortable about this group constraining TLS 1.3.
 
Eliot 


 
Is the current published version up to =
date with the rest of the comments?
 
Thanks,
 
Joe
 
On Fri, =
Sep 20, 2019 at 3:42 AM John Mattsson <john.mattsson=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi =
Alan,

I added references to RFC 8446 =
Section 8.1, and 8.2, and 4.2.11. Agree that they are good to point =
out.

I am not sure about the other =
suggestions, I am hesitant to discuss anything detailed about TLS 1.3 =
that does not have a specific connection to EAP-TLS or are useful for =
users of EAP-TLS. My feeling is that adding some extension, but not =
other would be even more confusing. The diagrams are there to show the =
message flows, which have a strong connection to the EAP state machine. =
For other details I think implementors have to read RFC 8466.

/John

=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
From: Alan =
DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com>
Date: =
Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21
To: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org>, EMU WG <emu@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments =
draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
Resent from: <alias-bounces@ietf.org>
Resent to: John =
Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>, <mohit@piuha.net>Resent date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21

      Just re-reading the text =
on PSK, I noticed a few things.  The text in Section 2.1.2 talks =
about PSK, the session ticket, and a "key_share" extension.  =
 The accompanying diagram doesn't include any of those.  I =
suggest updating the diagram to include them.

      As a related note, if the PSK *is* in =
the resumption cache, but the key is wrong, the cache entry should not =
be discarded.  Otherwise an attacker can disable caching for *all* =
users.  This issue could be clearer in this document.

      Perhaps it would be =
useful to add a short note in Section 5 about security of =
resumption.  It should reference RFC 8446 Section 8.1, and 8.2, =
which discuss this issue.  Also, Section 4.2.11 of that document =
has an "Implementor's note:" which is important.

      Alan DeKok.



_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
_______________________________________________Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu

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From: Mohit Sethi M 
To: John Mattsson , Eliot Lear , Joseph Salowey 
CC: John Mattsson , "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , EMU WG 
Thread-Topic: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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From: Eliot Lear 
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Subject: Re: [Emu] TEAP errata 5770
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Just one comment:

TEAP does not require an inner method, and indeed for IoT it is not =
necessary.

Eliot

> On 9 Oct 2019, at 07:46, Joseph Salowey  wrote:
>=20
> Based on Jouni's analysis the derivation of the S-IMCKs is not well =
specified.  To me it looks like the solution to handle an arbitrary =
number of methods that may or may not make an EMSK available would be =
fairly complex.
>=20
> I think the most straight forward solution is to either always assume =
that for an EMSK generating method the EMSK is either always available =
or always unavailable.  It seems that it is safer to always assume that =
the EMSK is unavailable and will therefore never be used.  I think this =
has the following implications:
>=20
> -  The S-IMCK is always generated from the inner method MSK or the =
all-zero value if the method does not generate key material.
> -  The EMSK compound MAC is not used
> -  Implementations must have a policy that accepts MSK MACs
>=20
> It would appear that from a cryptographic analysis point of view the =
MSK and EMSK are equivalent since these keys will only be used in these =
TEAP calculations and not for other purposes..  There are documented =
drawbacks of using the MSK described in RFC7029 =
(https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7029#page-12 =
).   If the properties of =
the EMSK binding are needed in the use cases currently under =
consideration then I think we could redefine the way the EMSK MAC to be =
computed from the EMSK of the inner method changing the above to
>=20
> -  The S-IMCK is always generated from the inner method MSK or the =
all-zero value if the method does not generate key material.
> - Compute EMSK MAC from the inner-method EMSK instead of the S-IMCK
>      Compound-MAC =3D MAC( EMSK[J], BUFFER )
> -  Implementations have a policy that prevents EMSK downgrade to MSK
>=20
> Hopefully there is a more elegant solution. Any ideas?
>=20
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> Emu mailing list
> Emu@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


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Just =
one comment:

TEAP =
does not require an inner method, and indeed for =
IoT it is not necessary.

Eliot

On 9 Oct 2019, at 07:46, Joseph =
Salowey <joe@salowey.net> wrote:

Based on Jouni's analysis =
the derivation of the S-IMCKs is not well specified.  To me it =
looks like the solution  to handle an arbitrary number of methods that =
may or may not make an EMSK available would be fairly =
complex.  

I=
 think the most straight forward solution is to either always assume =
that for an EMSK generating method the EMSK is either always available =
or always unavailable.  It seems that it is safer to always assume =
that the EMSK is unavailable and will therefore never be used.  I =
think this has the following implications:

-  The S-IMCK is always generated =
from the inner method MSK or the all-zero value if the method does =
not generate key material. 
-  The EMSK =
compound MAC is not used
-  Implementations =
must have a policy that accepts MSK MACs

It would appear that from a =
cryptographic analysis point of view the MSK and EMSK are equivalent =
since these keys will only be used in these TEAP calculations and =
not for other purposes..  There are documented drawbacks of using =
the MSK described in RFC7029 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7029#page-12).  =
 If the properties of the EMSK binding are needed in the use cases =
currently under consideration then I think we could redefine the way the =
EMSK MAC to be computed from the EMSK of the inner method changing the =
above to 

-  The S-IMCK is always generated =
from the inner method MSK or the all-zero value if the method does =
not generate key material. 
- Compute EMSK MAC =
from the inner-method EMSK instead of the S-IMCK
     Compound-MAC =3D MAC( EMSK[J], BUFFER )
-  =
Implementations have a policy that prevents EMSK downgrade to =
MSK
  
Hopefully there is a more elegant solution. Any =
ideas?

Joe

_______________________________________________
Emu =
mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu

=

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From: Mohit Sethi M 
To: Eliot Lear , John Mattsson 
CC: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , John Mattsson , EMU WG 
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From: John Mattsson 
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Thread-Topic: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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From: John Mattsson 
To: Mohit Sethi M , Eliot Lear 
CC: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , John Mattsson , EMU WG 
Thread-Topic: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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From: Eliot Lear 
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Cc: John Mattsson , Joseph Salowey , John Mattsson , "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , EMU WG 
To: Mohit Sethi M 
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Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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Hi Mohit,

> On 10 Oct 2019, at 09:55, Mohit Sethi M  =
wrote:
> @Elliot: I understand your discomfort with constraining TLS 1.3. But =
there is clearl precedent. The original EAP-TLS specification in RFC =
5216 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5216 =
) has no mention of PSKs.
>=20

*Architecturally* I am angling toward code impact.  Is there a =
fundamental issue with TLS-PSK or is it just EAP-TLS-PSK?  This is a =
matter of how one would want to address the problem in =
OpenSSL/GNUTLS/TinySSL/WolfSSL and what the calling interfaces should =
be.

I want to stress again: whether it=E2=80=99s PSK or public key is =
conceptually not that different here.  There is some potential theft =
protection in public key mechanisms, but only if a real TEE is used.  =
We=E2=80=99re not seeing that as much as we would like yet, but it may =
make sense to aim in that direction.

Thus one potential outcome of this discussion is: PSK is just bad, and =
never use it, regardless of EAP or other.  Another potential outcome is =
the opposite.  And then there are some states in between.

Eliot
> --Mohit
>=20
> On 10/10/19 10:44 AM, John Mattsson wrote:
>> Hi Eliot,
>>=20
>> I agree that the question boils down to IoT. There are currently a =
lot of IoT systems using PSK, and many of them will likely want to stay =
on PSK, rather than migrating to RPK. Using a protocol with PFS is =
nowadays recommended practice. EAP-PSK does not provide PFS, and EAP-PWD =
is not suitable for IoT. I strongly think we need an EAP method with PSK =
+ PFS for IoT, and the easiest way to achieve that seems to be =
EAP-TLS-PSK.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> John
>>=20
>> From: Eliot Lear  
>> Date: Thursday, 10 October 2019 at 09:14
>> To: Joseph Salowey  
>> Cc: John Mattsson  =
, =
"draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" =
 =
 =
, EMU WG  =

>> Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
>> Resent from:  
>> Resent to: John Mattsson  =
,  =

>> Resent date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 00:14:49 -0700 (PDT)
>>=20
>> Hi Joe,
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 7 Oct 2019, at 02:42, Joseph Salowey > wrote:
>>=20
>> There is a TLS working group draft on importing external PSKs for use =
with TLS - =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer-01 =
.  =
This draft can mitigate some of the issues with using external PSKs.
>>=20
>> My suggesting is to leave the draft as is and deal with external PSKs =
as an update to EAP-TLS 1.3 or as a separate method.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Before we nail this down, it seems like we need to have a discussion =
about how best to onboard wired IoT devices in particular from an =
on-prem view.  The issue here is that EAP-TLS-PSK is useful for that =
purpose, as we discussed.  Now there is nothing particularly special =
about PSK and we could run with a naked public key pair as well in 1.3, =
but we have to choose something.  The fundamental question is what does =
a manufacturer stamp into the device and what is placed on a label.  We =
have a running example of DPP doing this for wireless with public key =
code, but that doesn=E2=80=99t get us to proper onboarding for wired =E2=80=
=93 the signaling just isn=E2=80=99t there.
>>=20
>> Also, maybe it=E2=80=99s me, but I remain uncomfortable about this =
group constraining TLS 1.3.
>>=20
>> Eliot
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Is the current published version up to date with the rest of the =
comments?
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> Joe
>>=20
>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 3:42 AM John Mattsson =
> wrote:
>> Hi Alan,
>>=20
>> I added references to RFC 8446 Section 8.1, and 8.2, and 4.2.11. =
Agree that they are good to point out.
>>=20
>> I am not sure about the other suggestions, I am hesitant to discuss =
anything detailed about TLS 1.3 that does not have a specific connection =
to EAP-TLS or are useful for users of EAP-TLS. My feeling is that adding =
some extension, but not other would be even more confusing. The diagrams =
are there to show the message flows, which have a strong connection to =
the EAP state machine. For other details I think implementors have to =
read RFC 8466.
>>=20
>> /John
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
>> From: Alan DeKok >
>> Date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21
>> To: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org =
" =
>, EMU WG >
>> Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
>> Resent from: >
>> Resent to: John Mattsson >, >
>> Resent date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21
>>=20
>>       Just re-reading the text on PSK, I noticed a few things.  The =
text in Section 2.1.2 talks about PSK, the session ticket, and a =
"key_share" extension.   The accompanying diagram doesn't include any of =
those.  I suggest updating the diagram to include them.
>>=20
>>       As a related note, if the PSK *is* in the resumption cache, but =
the key is wrong, the cache entry should not be discarded.  Otherwise an =
attacker can disable caching for *all* users.  This issue could be =
clearer in this document.
>>=20
>>       Perhaps it would be useful to add a short note in Section 5 =
about security of resumption.  It should reference RFC 8446 Section 8.1, =
and 8.2, which discuss this issue.  Also, Section 4.2.11 of that =
document has an "Implementor's note:" which is important.
>>=20
>>       Alan DeKok.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emu mailing list
>> Emu@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu =

>> _______________________________________________
>> Emu mailing list
>> Emu@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu =

>>=20
>>=20


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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

Hi =
Mohit,

On 10 Oct 2019, at 09:55, Mohit Sethi M =
<mohit.m.sethi@ericsson.com> wrote:
@Elliot: I =
understand your discomfort with constraining TLS 1.3. But there is =
clearl precedent. The original EAP-TLS specification in RFC 5216 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5216) =
has no mention of PSKs. 

*Architecturally* I am angling toward code impact. =
 Is there a fundamental issue with TLS-PSK or is it just =
EAP-TLS-PSK?  This is a matter of how one would want to address the =
problem in OpenSSL/GNUTLS/TinySSL/WolfSSL and what the calling =
interfaces should be.

I want to =
stress again: whether it=E2=80=99s PSK or public key is conceptually not =
that different here.  There is some potential theft protection in =
public key mechanisms, but only if a real TEE is used.  We=E2=80=99re=
 not seeing that as much as we would like yet, but it may make sense to =
aim in that direction.

Thus one =
potential outcome of this discussion is: PSK is just bad, and never use =
it, regardless of EAP or other.  Another potential outcome is the =
opposite.  And then there are some states in between.

Eliot
--Mohit
On 10/10/19 10:44 AM, John Mattsson wrote:
Hi Eliot,
 
I agree that the question =
boils down to IoT. There are currently a lot of IoT systems using PSK, =
and many of them will likely want to stay on PSK, rather than migrating =
to RPK. Using a protocol with PFS is nowadays recommended practice. =
EAP-PSK does not provide PFS, and EAP-PWD is not suitable for IoT. I =
strongly think we need an EAP method with PSK + PFS for IoT, and the =
easiest way to achieve that seems to be EAP-TLS-PSK.
 
Cheers,
John
 
From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, 10 October =
2019 at 09:14
To: Joseph Salowey <joe@salowey.net>
Cc: John =
Mattsson <john.mattsson=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org>, EMU WG <emu@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC =
Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
Resent =
from: <alias-bounces@ietf.org>
Resent to: John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>, <mohit@piuha.net>
Resent=
 date: Thu, 10 Oct =
2019 00:14:49 -0700 (PDT)
 
Hi Joe,


On 7 Oct 2019, at 02:42, Joseph Salowey <joe@salowey.net> =
wrote:
 
There is =
a TLS working group draft on importing external PSKs for use with TLS =
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importe=
r-01.  This draft can mitigate some of the issues with using =
external PSKs.  
 
My suggesting is to leave the draft as is and =
deal with external PSKs as an update to EAP-TLS 1.3 or as a separate =
method. 
 
 
Before we nail this down, it seems like =
we need to have a discussion about how best to onboard wired IoT devices =
in particular from an on-prem view.  The issue here is that =
EAP-TLS-PSK is useful for that purpose, as we discussed.  Now there =
is nothing particularly special about PSK and we could run with a naked =
public key pair as well in 1.3, but we have to choose something. =
 The fundamental question is what does a manufacturer stamp into =
the device and what is placed on a label.  We have a running =
example of DPP doing this for wireless with public key code, but that =
doesn=E2=80=99t get us to proper onboarding for wired =E2=80=93 the =
signaling just isn=E2=80=99t there.
 
Also, maybe it=E2=80=99s me, but I remain =
uncomfortable about this group constraining TLS 1.3.
 
Eliot 


 
Is the current published version up to date with =
the rest of the comments?
 
Thanks,
 
Joe
 
On Fri, =
Sep 20, 2019 at 3:42 AM John Mattsson <john.mattsson=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi Alan,

I added references to RFC 8446 Section 8.1, =
and 8.2, and 4.2.11. Agree that they are good to point out.

I am not sure about the other suggestions, I =
am hesitant to discuss anything detailed about TLS 1.3 that does not =
have a specific connection to EAP-TLS or are useful for users of =
EAP-TLS. My feeling is that adding some extension, but not other would =
be even more confusing. The diagrams are there to show the message =
flows, which have a strong connection to the EAP state machine. For =
other details I think implementors have to read RFC 8466.

/John

=EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
From: Alan =
DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com>
Date: Wednesday, 18 September 2019 at 15:21
To: =
"draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org>, EMU WG =
<emu@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: =
[Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
Resent =
from: <alias-bounces@ietf.org>
Resent=
 to: John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>, <mohit@piuha.net>
Resent date: Wednesday, =
18 September 2019 at 15:21

    =
  Just re-reading the text on PSK, I noticed a few things.  =
The text in Section 2.1.2 talks about PSK, the session ticket, and a =
"key_share" extension.   The accompanying diagram doesn't =
include any of those.  I suggest updating the diagram to include =
them.

      As a related =
note, if the PSK *is* in the resumption cache, but the key is wrong, the =
cache entry should not be discarded.  Otherwise an attacker can =
disable caching for *all* users.  This issue could be clearer in =
this document.

      Perhaps =
it would be useful to add a short note in Section 5 about security of =
resumption.  It should reference RFC 8446 Section 8.1, and 8.2, =
which discuss this issue.  Also, Section 4.2.11 of that document =
has an "Implementor's note:" which is important.

      Alan DeKok.



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CC: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , EMU WG 
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From: Mohit Sethi M 
To: Eliot Lear , Mohit Sethi M 
CC: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , John Mattsson , EMU WG 
Thread-Topic: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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From: Mohit Sethi M 
To: John Mattsson , Mohit Sethi M , Eliot Lear 
CC: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , EMU WG 
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From: John Mattsson 
To: Mohit Sethi M , John Mattsson , Eliot Lear 
CC: "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , EMU WG 
Thread-Topic: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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References: <7828_1564869242_5D46027A_7828_348_1_02e001d54a45$e92ae900$bb80bb00$@augustcellars.com> <20b118932a4843b6b88e605799fafea8@aalto.fi> <211AD83C-D111-4EEB-AAF0-D9B5E521F4CF@deployingradius.com> <8F355C6F-DF1E-4E03-B75E-0F1D2508B9D4@ericsson.com> <246280B8-6E5C-484B-95BD-9C940C98C507@deployingradius.com>  <17E08795-4E4E-4507-8384-836020966BCF@deployingradius.com> <634C375D-FBF3-4297-A5C0-E68C903CA34A@ericsson.com>   <40D7307B-E302-4379-9013-C8B300A09050@ericsson.com>    <143f0e52-84e5-4e19-4597-1855e43094fa@ericsson.com>
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From: Mohit Sethi M 
To: John Mattsson , Eliot Lear 
CC: EMU WG 
Thread-Topic: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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References: <7828_1564869242_5D46027A_7828_348_1_02e001d54a45$e92ae900$bb80bb00$@augustcellars.com> <20b118932a4843b6b88e605799fafea8@aalto.fi> <211AD83C-D111-4EEB-AAF0-D9B5E521F4CF@deployingradius.com> <8F355C6F-DF1E-4E03-B75E-0F1D2508B9D4@ericsson.com> <246280B8-6E5C-484B-95BD-9C940C98C507@deployingradius.com>  <17E08795-4E4E-4507-8384-836020966BCF@deployingradius.com> <634C375D-FBF3-4297-A5C0-E68C903CA34A@ericsson.com>   <40D7307B-E302-4379-9013-C8B300A09050@ericsson.com>    <143f0e52-84e5-4e19-4597-1855e43094fa@ericsson.com> 
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From nobody Fri Oct 11 04:03:38 2019
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References: <7828_1564869242_5D46027A_7828_348_1_02e001d54a45$e92ae900$bb80bb00$@augustcellars.com> <20b118932a4843b6b88e605799fafea8@aalto.fi> <211AD83C-D111-4EEB-AAF0-D9B5E521F4CF@deployingradius.com> <8F355C6F-DF1E-4E03-B75E-0F1D2508B9D4@ericsson.com> <246280B8-6E5C-484B-95BD-9C940C98C507@deployingradius.com>  <17E08795-4E4E-4507-8384-836020966BCF@deployingradius.com> <634C375D-FBF3-4297-A5C0-E68C903CA34A@ericsson.com>  
Comments: In-reply-to Eliot Lear  message dated "Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:14:30 +0200."
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Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 13:04:21 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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Eliot Lear  wrote:
    > Before we nail this down, it seems like we need to have a discussion
    > about how best to onboard wired IoT devices in particular from an
    > on-prem view.  The issue here is that EAP-TLS-PSK is useful for that
    > purpose, as we discussed.  Now there is nothing particularly special
    > about PSK and we could run with a naked public key pair as well in 1.=
3,
    > but we have to choose something.

okay, so why do you prefer PSK?

    > The fundamental question is what does
    > a manufacturer stamp into the device and what is placed on a label.  =
We
    > have a running example of DPP doing this for wireless with public key
    > code, but that doesn=E2=80=99t get us to proper onboarding for wired =
=E2=80=93 the
    > signaling just isn=E2=80=99t there.

I don't understand this.
Are you saying that because it's wired, people do not expect to scan
anything?

=2D-=20
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [=20
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [=20
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [=20
=09

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From: Eliot Lear 
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Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 13:25:26 +0200
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Cc: Joseph Salowey , "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , John Mattsson , EMU WG 
To: Michael Richardson 
References: <7828_1564869242_5D46027A_7828_348_1_02e001d54a45$e92ae900$bb80bb00$@augustcellars.com> <20b118932a4843b6b88e605799fafea8@aalto.fi> <211AD83C-D111-4EEB-AAF0-D9B5E521F4CF@deployingradius.com> <8F355C6F-DF1E-4E03-B75E-0F1D2508B9D4@ericsson.com> <246280B8-6E5C-484B-95BD-9C940C98C507@deployingradius.com>  <17E08795-4E4E-4507-8384-836020966BCF@deployingradius.com> <634C375D-FBF3-4297-A5C0-E68C903CA34A@ericsson.com>   <26738.1570791861@dooku.sandelman.ca>
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> On 11 Oct 2019, at 13:04, Michael Richardson  =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Eliot Lear  wrote:
>> Before we nail this down, it seems like we need to have a discussion
>> about how best to onboard wired IoT devices in particular from an
>> on-prem view.  The issue here is that EAP-TLS-PSK is useful for that
>> purpose, as we discussed.  Now there is nothing particularly special
>> about PSK and we could run with a naked public key pair as well in =
1.3,
>> but we have to choose something.
>=20
> okay, so why do you prefer PSK?

I do not.  But we need to have *a* flow for on prem onboarding.  TLS-PSK =
is one approach, but there are others.  I just want a discussion before =
we nail this down, as I wrote.

>=20
>> The fundamental question is what does
>> a manufacturer stamp into the device and what is placed on a label.  =
We
>> have a running example of DPP doing this for wireless with public key
>> code, but that doesn=E2=80=99t get us to proper onboarding for wired =
=E2=80=93 the
>> signaling just isn=E2=80=99t there.
>=20
> I don't understand this.
> Are you saying that because it's wired, people do not expect to scan
> anything?

No quite the opposite- I=E2=80=99m saying that there is at least one way =
to do this with Wifi, but no way to do this for wired right now, an we =
need one.

Eliot

>=20
> --
> ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh =
networks [
> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network =
architect  [
> ]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on =
rails    [
>=20


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In-reply-to: 
References: <7828_1564869242_5D46027A_7828_348_1_02e001d54a45$e92ae900$bb80bb00$@augustcellars.com> <20b118932a4843b6b88e605799fafea8@aalto.fi> <211AD83C-D111-4EEB-AAF0-D9B5E521F4CF@deployingradius.com> <8F355C6F-DF1E-4E03-B75E-0F1D2508B9D4@ericsson.com> <246280B8-6E5C-484B-95BD-9C940C98C507@deployingradius.com>  <17E08795-4E4E-4507-8384-836020966BCF@deployingradius.com> <634C375D-FBF3-4297-A5C0-E68C903CA34A@ericsson.com>   <26738.1570791861@dooku.sandelman.ca> 
Comments: In-reply-to Eliot Lear  message dated "Fri, 11 Oct 2019 13:25:26 +0200."
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Eliot Lear  wrote:
    >> Eliot Lear  wrote:
    >>> Before we nail this down, it seems like we need to have a discussion
    >>> about how best to onboard wired IoT devices in particular from an
    >>> on-prem view.  The issue here is that EAP-TLS-PSK is useful for that
    >>> purpose, as we discussed.  Now there is nothing particularly special
    >>> about PSK and we could run with a naked public key pair as well in
    >>> 1.3, but we have to choose something.
    >>=20
    >> okay, so why do you prefer PSK?

    > I do not.  But we need to have *a* flow for on prem onboarding.
    > TLS-PSK is one approach, but there are others.  I just want a
    > discussion before we nail this down, as I wrote.

    >>=20
    >>> The fundamental question is what does a manufacturer stamp into the
    >>> device and what is placed on a label.  We have a running example of
    >>> DPP doing this for wireless with public key code, but that doesn=E2=
=80=99t
    >>> get us to proper onboarding for wired =E2=80=93 the signaling just =
isn=E2=80=99t
    >>> there.
    >>=20
    >> I don't understand this.  Are you saying that because it's wired,
    >> people do not expect to scan anything?

    > No quite the opposite- I=E2=80=99m saying that there is at least one =
way to do
    > this with Wifi, but no way to do this for wired right now, an we need
    > one.

So, can wired just be a degenerate version of wifi, where there can be only
one "ESSID", and there are no beacons to consider?

=2D-=20
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [=20
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [=20
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [=20
=09

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Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 16:34:43 +0200
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Cc: Joseph Salowey , "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , John Mattsson , EMU WG 
To: Michael Richardson 
References: <7828_1564869242_5D46027A_7828_348_1_02e001d54a45$e92ae900$bb80bb00$@augustcellars.com> <20b118932a4843b6b88e605799fafea8@aalto.fi> <211AD83C-D111-4EEB-AAF0-D9B5E521F4CF@deployingradius.com> <8F355C6F-DF1E-4E03-B75E-0F1D2508B9D4@ericsson.com> <246280B8-6E5C-484B-95BD-9C940C98C507@deployingradius.com>  <17E08795-4E4E-4507-8384-836020966BCF@deployingradius.com> <634C375D-FBF3-4297-A5C0-E68C903CA34A@ericsson.com>   <26738.1570791861@dooku.sandelman.ca>  <9501.1570802988@dooku.sandelman.ca>
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> On 11 Oct 2019, at 16:09, Michael Richardson  wrote:
>=20
> So, can wired just be a degenerate version of wifi, where there can be =
only
> one "ESSID", and there are no beacons to consider?


On the whole that has been my thought.  But it is a matter of which =
mechanism to degenerate to.  Is it TLS-PSK?  eDPP++?  TLS with naked =
public keys++?  And again, this is the on-prem case.  For cloud, we are =
well along.

Eliot

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From: "Dr. Pala" 
Cc: Mohit Sethi 
Organization: OpenCA Labs
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Subject: Re: [Emu] Re-charter text
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Hi Mohit, all,

sorry for the long delay in replying (probably mute at this point),=20
however I think the new text looks great. The only possible change I=20
would provide is the possibility to restrict the scope for the=20
credentials management part. In particular, I would change the following:=


    The group will investigate minimal mechanisms with which limited-use
    EAP authentication credentials can be used for creating general-use
    long-term credentials.

With something scoped to the credentials for accessing the network=20
itself (instead of a generic credentials provisioning mechanism):

    The group will investigate minimal mechanisms to manage long-term
    credentials that are use to access the network.

This would probably make the management of credentials scoped to=20
providing and managing the access credentials that the network is=20
authoritative for - I would feel a bit "un-ease" to provide mechanisms=20
to provision credentials to be used outside the access network context=20
(just because it might not be the best enforcement point).

Given that I would be happier with a reduced scope (unless there are=20
good reasons not to limit the scope), I am also happy with the current=20
text (since allows EAP-CREDS to be discussed).

Thanks,
Max


On 9/21/19 6:16 AM, Mohit Sethi M wrote:
>
> Hi Georgios,
>
> Thanks for reading the charter. I have addressed your comments on=20
> github. Here is the updated text:
> https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/blob/master/emu-charter.md
>
> and here is the diff from the previous version:
> https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/commit/be1bf557355ecba5d5ee35ab27f3e8=
fae8c06eef
>
> --Mohit
>
> On 9/18/19 11:37 AM, Georgios Z. Papadopoulos wrote:
>> Dear Joe, Mohit and all,
>>
>> In overall I find the text well written, while the objectives well=20
>> defined.
>> Below I have very few comments :
>>
>> * TLS is not defined.
>> *=C2=A0Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS) is defined twice.
>> *=C2=A0- An update to enable the use of TLS 1.3 in the context of EAP-=
TLS=20
>> (RFC 5216). */This document will pdate the security considerations=20
>> relating to EAP-TLS, document the implications of using new vs. old=20
>> TLS versions, add any recently gained new knowledge on=20
>> vulnerabilities, and discuss the possible implications of pervasive=20
>> surveillance./*
>>
>> This last point, maybe could be divided in several sentences, since I =

>> find it too long and, thus, hard to follow.
>>
>> Many thanks for your efforts.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Georgios
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 20:50, Mohit Sethi M >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> Please send in your comments on the charter text by Wednesday,=20
>>> September 18, 2019.
>>>
>>> Joe and Mohit
>>>
>>> On 8/21/19 11:13 AM, Mohit Sethi M wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for a productive meeting @ IETF 105. We had discussed the =

>>>> new charter text during the working group session in Montreal.=20
>>>> Please find the same text below. This text builds upon our current=20
>>>> charter. Feel free to suggest changes. RFC 2418 section 2.2=20
>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.2=20
>>>>  says the=20
>>>> following about a working group charter:
>>>>
>>>>>     2. Specifies the direction or objectives of the working group a=
nd
>>>>>        describes the approach that will be taken to achieve the goa=
ls;
>>>>
>>>> Please keep this in mind when suggesting changes. Once the text is=20
>>>> ready, we will send it to the IESG for review.
>>>>
>>>> Joe and Mohit
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------
>>>>
>>>> The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP) [RFC 3748] is a=20
>>>> network access authentication framework used, for instance, in VPN=20
>>>> and mobile networks. EAP itself is a simple protocol and actual=20
>>>> authentication happens in EAP methods. Several EAP methods have=20
>>>> been developed at the IETF and support for EAP exists in a broad=20
>>>> set of devices. Previous larger EAP-related efforts at the IETF=20
>>>> included rewriting the base EAP protocol specification and the=20
>>>> development of several standards track EAP methods.
>>>>
>>>> EAP methods are generally based on existing security technologies=20
>>>> such as TLS and SIM cards. Our understanding of security threats is =

>>>> continuously evolving. This has driven the evolution of several of=20
>>>> these underlying technologies. As an example, IETF has standardized =

>>>> a new and improved version of TLS in RFC 8446. The group will=20
>>>> therefore provide guidance and update EAP method specifications=20
>>>> where necessary to enable the use of new versions of these=20
>>>> underlying technologies.
>>>>
>>>> At the same time, some new use cases for EAP have been identified.=20
>>>> EAP is now more broadly in mobile network authentication. The group =

>>>> will update existing EAP methods such as EAP-AKA' to stay in sync=20
>>>> with updates to the referenced 3GPP specifications. RFC 7258 notes=20
>>>> that pervasive monitoring is an attack. Perfect Forward Secrecy=20
>>>> (PFS) is an important security property for modern protocols to=20
>>>> thwart pervasive monitoring. The group will therefore work on an=20
>>>> extension to EAP-AKA' for providing Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS).
>>>>
>>>> Out-of-band (OOB) refers to a separate communication channel=20
>>>> independent of the primary in-band channel over which the actual=20
>>>> network communication takes place. OOB channels are now used for=20
>>>> authentication in a variety of protocols and devices=20
>>>> (draft-ietf-oauth-device-flow-13, WhatsApp Web, etc.). Many users=20
>>>> are accustomed to tapping NFC or scanning QR codes. However, EAP=20
>>>> currently does not have any standard methods that support=20
>>>> authentication based on OOB channels. The group will therefore work =

>>>> on an EAP method where authentication is based on an out-of-band=20
>>>> channel between the peer and the server.
>>>>
>>>> EAP authentication is based on credentials available on the peer=20
>>>> and the server. However, some EAP methods use credentials that are=20
>>>> time or domain limited (such as EAP-POTP), and there may be a need=20
>>>> for creating long term credentials for re-authenticating the peer=20
>>>> in a more general context. The group will investigate minimal=20
>>>> mechanisms with which limited-use EAP authentication credentials=20
>>>> can be used for creating general-use long-term credentials.
>>>>
>>>> In summary, the working group shall produce the following documents:=

>>>>
>>>> =C2=A0- An update to enable the use of TLS 1.3 in the context of EAP=
-TLS=20
>>>> (RFC 5216). This document will pdate the security considerations=20
>>>> relating to EAP-TLS, document the implications of using new vs. old =

>>>> TLS versions, add any recently gained new knowledge on=20
>>>> vulnerabilities, and discuss the possible implications of pervasive =

>>>> surveillance.
>>>>
>>>> =C2=A0- Several EAP methods such EAP-TTLS and EAP-FAST use an outer =
TLS=20
>>>> tunnel. Provide guidance or update the relevant specifications=20
>>>> explaining how those EAP methods (PEAP/TTLS/TEAP) will work with=20
>>>> TLS 1.3. This will also involve maintenance work based on erratas=20
>>>> found in published specifications (such as EAP-TEAP).
>>>>
>>>> - Define session identifiers for fast re-authentication for=20
>>>> EAP-SIM, EAP-AKA, and EAP-AKA=E2=80=99. The lack of this definition =
is a=20
>>>> recently discovered bug in the original RFCs.
>>>>
>>>> - Update the EAP-AKA' specification (RFC 5448) to ensure that its=20
>>>> capability to provide a cryptographic binding to network context=20
>>>> stays in sync with updates to the referenced 3GPP specifications.=20
>>>> The document will also contain any recently gained new knowledge on =

>>>> vulnerabilities or the possible implications of pervasive surveillan=
ce.
>>>>
>>>> - Develop an extension to EAP-AKA' such that Perfect Forward=20
>>>> Secrecy can be provided. There may also be privacy improvements=20
>>>> that have become feasible with the=C2=A0 introduction of recent iden=
tity=20
>>>> privacy improvements in 3GPP networks.
>>>>
>>>> - Gather experience regarding the use of large certificates and=20
>>>> long certificate chains in the context of EAP-TLS (all versions),=20
>>>> as some implementations and access networks may limit the number of =

>>>> EAP packet exchanges that can be handled. Document operational=20
>>>> recommendations or other mitigation strategies to avoid issues.
>>>>
>>>> - Define a standard EAP method for mutual authentication between a=20
>>>> peer and a server that is based on an out-of-band channel. The=20
>>>> method itself shall be independent of the underlying OOB channel=20
>>>> and shall support a variety of OOB channels such as NFC,=20
>>>> dynamically generated QR codes, audio, and visible light.
>>>>
>>>> - Define mechanisms by which EAP methods can support creation of=20
>>>> long-term credentials for the peer based on initial limited-use=20
>>>> credentials.
>>>>
>>>> The working group is expected to stay in close collaboration with=20
>>>> the EAP deployment community, the TLS working group (for EAP-TLS=20
>>>> work), and the 3GPP security architecture group (for EAP-AKA' work)
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Emu mailing list
>>>> Emu@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emu mailing list
>>> Emu@ietf.org 
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emu mailing list
>> Emu@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emu mailing list
> Emu@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
--=20
Best Regards,
Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
OpenCA Labs Director
OpenCA Logo

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--------------17ED0205DE2C8F4B52882323
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


  
    
  
  
    
Hi Mohit, all,

    

    
sorry for the long delay in replying (probably mute at this
      point), however I think the new text looks great. The only
      possible change I would provide is the possibility to restrict the
      scope for the credentials management part. In particular, I would
      change the following:

    

      
The group will investigate minimal mechanisms with which
        limited-use EAP authentication credentials can be used for
        creating general-use long-term credentials.

    

    
With something scoped to the credentials for accessing the
      network itself (instead of a generic credentials provisioning
      mechanism):

    

      
The group will investigate minimal mechanisms to manage
        long-term credentials that are use to access the network.

    

    
This would probably make the management of credentials scoped to
      providing and managing the access credentials that the network is
      authoritative for - I would feel a bit "un-ease" to provide
      mechanisms to provision credentials to be used outside the access
      network context (just because it might not be the best enforcement
      point).

    
Given that I would be happier with a reduced scope (unless there
      are good reasons not to limit the scope), I am also happy with the
      current text (since allows EAP-CREDS to be discussed).

    
Thanks,

      Max

    


    

    
On 9/21/19 6:16 AM, Mohit Sethi M
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
Hi Georgios,

      
Thanks for reading the charter. I have addressed your comments
        on github. Here is the updated text:

        https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/blob/master/emu-charter.md

        

        and here is the diff from the previous version:

        https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/commit/be1bf557355ecba5d5ee35ab27f3e8fae8c06eef

      

      
--Mohit

      

      
On 9/18/19 11:37 AM, Georgios Z.
        Papadopoulos wrote:

      

      

        Dear Joe, Mohit and all,
        


        

        
In overall I find the text well written, while the
          objectives well defined.

        

          
Below I have very few comments :

          


          

          
* TLS is not defined. 

          
* Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS) is defined
            twice.

          
* - An update to enable the use of TLS 1.3 in
            the context of EAP-TLS (RFC 5216). This
                document will pdate the security considerations relating
                to EAP-TLS, document the implications of using new vs.
                old TLS versions, add any recently gained new knowledge
                on vulnerabilities, and discuss the possible
                implications of pervasive surveillance.

          


          

          
This last point, maybe could be divided in
            several sentences, since I find it too long and, thus, hard
            to follow.

          


          

          
Many thanks for your efforts.

          


          

          
Best regards,

          
Georgios

          


          

        

        

        

          

            
On Sep 11, 2019, at 20:50, Mohit Sethi M <mohit.m.sethi@ericsson.com>
              wrote:

            

            

              

                
Dear all,

                
Please send in your comments on the charter
                  text by Wednesday, September 18, 2019.
                  

                

                
Joe and Mohit

                

                
On 8/21/19 11:13 AM, Mohit
                  Sethi M wrote:

                

                

                  
Dear all,

                  
Thank you for a productive meeting @ IETF
                    105. We had discussed the new charter text during
                    the working group session in Montreal. Please find
                    the same text below. This text builds upon our
                    current charter. Feel free to suggest changes. RFC
                    2418 section 2.2 
                      https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.2
                    says the following about a working group charter:

                  

                    
   2. Specifies the direction or objectives of the working group and
      describes the approach that will be taken to achieve the goals;

                  

                  

                  Please keep this in mind when suggesting changes. Once
                  the text is ready, we will send it to the IESG for
                  review.

                  
Joe and Mohit

                  
------------------------

                    

                    The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP) [RFC
                    3748] is a network access authentication framework
                    used, for instance, in VPN and mobile networks. EAP
                    itself is a simple protocol and actual
                    authentication happens in EAP methods. Several EAP
                    methods have been developed at the IETF and support
                    for EAP exists in a broad set of devices. Previous
                    larger EAP-related efforts at the IETF included
                    rewriting the base EAP protocol specification and
                    the development of several standards track EAP
                    methods.

                    

                    EAP methods are generally based on existing security
                    technologies such as TLS and SIM cards. Our
                    understanding of security threats is continuously
                    evolving. This has driven the evolution of several
                    of these underlying technologies. As an example,
                    IETF has standardized a new and improved version of
                    TLS in RFC 8446. The group will therefore provide
                    guidance and update EAP method specifications where
                    necessary to enable the use of new versions of these
                    underlying technologies.
                    

                    

                    At the same time, some new use cases for EAP have
                    been identified. EAP is now more broadly in mobile
                    network authentication. The group will update
                    existing EAP methods such as EAP-AKA' to stay in
                    sync with updates to the referenced 3GPP
                    specifications. RFC 7258 notes that pervasive
                    monitoring is an attack. Perfect Forward Secrecy
                    (PFS) is an important security property for modern
                    protocols to thwart pervasive monitoring. The group
                    will therefore work on an extension to EAP-AKA' for
                    providing Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS).

                    

                    Out-of-band (OOB) refers to a separate communication
                    channel independent of the primary in-band channel
                    over which the actual network communication takes
                    place. OOB channels are now used for authentication
                    in a variety of protocols and devices
                    (draft-ietf-oauth-device-flow-13, WhatsApp Web,
                    etc.). Many users are accustomed to tapping NFC or
                    scanning QR codes. However, EAP currently does not
                    have any standard methods that support
                    authentication based on OOB channels. The group will
                    therefore work on an EAP method where authentication
                    is based on an out-of-band channel between the peer
                    and the server.

                    

                    EAP authentication is based on credentials available
                    on the peer and the server. However, some EAP
                    methods use credentials that are time or domain
                    limited (such as EAP-POTP), and there may be a need
                    for creating long term credentials for
                    re-authenticating the peer in a more general
                    context. The group will investigate minimal
                    mechanisms with which limited-use EAP authentication
                    credentials can be used for creating general-use
                    long-term credentials.

                    

                    In summary, the working group shall produce the
                    following documents:

                    

                     - An update to enable the use of TLS 1.3 in the
                    context of EAP-TLS (RFC 5216). This document will
                    pdate the security considerations relating to
                    EAP-TLS, document the implications of using new vs.
                    old TLS versions, add any recently gained new
                    knowledge on vulnerabilities, and discuss the
                    possible implications of pervasive surveillance.

                    

                     - Several EAP methods such EAP-TTLS and EAP-FAST
                    use an outer TLS tunnel. Provide guidance or update
                    the relevant specifications explaining how those EAP
                    methods (PEAP/TTLS/TEAP) will work with TLS 1.3.
                    This will also involve maintenance work based on
                    erratas found in published specifications (such as
                    EAP-TEAP).

                    

                    - Define session identifiers for fast
                    re-authentication for EAP-SIM, EAP-AKA, and
                    EAP-AKA’. The lack of this definition is a recently
                    discovered bug in the original RFCs.

                  
- Update the EAP-AKA' specification (RFC
                    5448) to ensure that its capability to provide a
                    cryptographic binding to network context stays in
                    sync with updates to the referenced 3GPP
                    specifications. The document will also contain any
                    recently gained new knowledge on vulnerabilities or
                    the possible implications of pervasive surveillance.

                    

                    - Develop an extension to EAP-AKA' such that Perfect
                    Forward Secrecy can be provided. There may also be
                    privacy improvements that have become feasible with
                    the  introduction of recent identity privacy
                    improvements in 3GPP networks.

                    

                    - Gather experience regarding the use of large
                    certificates and long certificate chains in the
                    context of EAP-TLS (all versions), as some
                    implementations and access networks may limit the
                    number of EAP packet exchanges that can be handled.
                    Document operational recommendations or other
                    mitigation strategies to avoid issues.

                    

                    - Define a standard EAP method for mutual
                    authentication between a peer and a server that is
                    based on an out-of-band channel. The method itself
                    shall be independent of the underlying OOB channel
                    and shall support a variety of OOB channels such as
                    NFC, dynamically generated QR codes, audio, and
                    visible light.

                    

                    - Define mechanisms by which EAP methods can support
                    creation of long-term credentials for the peer based
                    on initial limited-use credentials.

                    

                    The working group is expected to stay in close
                    collaboration with the EAP deployment community, the
                    TLS working group (for EAP-TLS work), and the 3GPP
                    security architecture group (for EAP-AKA' work)

                    

                    ------------------------

                  

                  

                  

                  
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


                

              

              _______________________________________________

              Emu mailing list

              Emu@ietf.org

              https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu

            

          

        

        

        

        

        
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


    

    
-- 

      

        Best Regards,
        

          Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.

          OpenCA Labs Director

        

        OpenCA Logo

      

    

  


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To: Mohit Sethi M , "emu@ietf.org" 
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From: "Dr. Pala" 
Organization: OpenCA Labs
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Subject: Re: [Emu] Re-charter text
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Hi Mohit, all,

I have a question for you - in which sense you mean "prudent" ?

Are you saying that creating "general-use" credentials or provisioning=20
credentials is different ? Creating "general-use" credentials instead of =

provisioning/managing the Access Network credentials seems way more=20
scary and generic than the text I proposed (which limits the scope of=20
the credentials you should manage with EAP to the credentials that are=20
used to access the network), therefore, because of your comment, I would =

like to have some clarifications here because my interpretation could be =

different than yours... and, based on that, my "happiness" level can be=20
different than initially reported :D

In particular, I would like to understand if the following operations=20
can be supported by an EAP method:

  * Renewing Existing credentials (i.e., maybe credentials that were
    generated via the EAP method in the first place)
  * Removing Existing credentials (i.e., the network will not use that
    credential anymore, therefore it tasks the device to remove them)

Personally, for the work we are doing in different types of Access=20
Networks (3gpp, CBRS-A, WiFi / WFA, and DOCSIS(r)), I think that the=20
advantage of the EAP method is about managing the credentials that are=20
also consumed by the EAP framework - I would not let my=20
application-layer credentials be managed by the Access Network... and=20
the opposite should apply as well, IMHO.

/*As long as both views are supported, I am ok with the text. */

However, if your interpretation of the charter would not allow=20
operations like registering an existing long-term credential to access=20
the network (e.g., the device cannot generate/use a different one),=20
renewing the credentials used to access the network, or=20
deleting/removing/revoking existing credentials (i.e., no need to keep a =

private key or secrets around if it is not useful), then I would not be=20
happy with the text.

Can you please provide clarifications on the above points ?

Also, you mention that there is an IESG meeting on October 31st - is it=20
possible to participate to that meeting ? If so, can you please let us=20
know the meetings' details... ?

Last but not least - I sent you the request earlier for a slot at IETF=20
106 for EAP-CREDS and I would like to confirm again with you we have the =

slot (I do not recall seeing your reply to that message).

Cheers,
Max


On 10/15/19 2:07 AM, Mohit Sethi M wrote:
>
> Dear Dr. Pala,
>
> I think we need to be more prudent when using terms such as=20
> "credential provisioning" and "credential management". The bullet=20
> later on in the current charter text specifically says that the=20
> credentials are for the EAP peer:
>
>> |Define mechanisms by which EAP methods can support creation of=20
>> long-term credentials for the peer based on initial limited-use=20
>> credentials.|
> Given that you are happy with the current text, I have a preference to =

> leave it in its current form. We are hoping that the IESG will discuss =

> this in their telechat on 31 October (which is also the last chance=20
> before Singapore).
>
> --Mohit
>
> On 10/15/19 3:11 AM, Dr. Pala wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mohit, all,
>>
>> sorry for the long delay in replying (probably mute at this point),=20
>> however I think the new text looks great. The only possible change I=20
>> would provide is the possibility to restrict the scope for the=20
>> credentials management part. In particular, I would change the followi=
ng:
>>
>>     The group will investigate minimal mechanisms with which
>>     limited-use EAP authentication credentials can be used for
>>     creating general-use long-term credentials.
>>
>> With something scoped to the credentials for accessing the network=20
>> itself (instead of a generic credentials provisioning mechanism):
>>
>>     The group will investigate minimal mechanisms to manage long-term
>>     credentials that are use to access the network.
>>
>> This would probably make the management of credentials scoped to=20
>> providing and managing the access credentials that the network is=20
>> authoritative for - I would feel a bit "un-ease" to provide=20
>> mechanisms to provision credentials to be used outside the access=20
>> network context (just because it might not be the best enforcement=20
>> point).
>>
>> Given that I would be happier with a reduced scope (unless there are=20
>> good reasons not to limit the scope), I am also happy with the=20
>> current text (since allows EAP-CREDS to be discussed).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Max
>>
>>
>> On 9/21/19 6:16 AM, Mohit Sethi M wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Georgios,
>>>
>>> Thanks for reading the charter. I have addressed your comments on=20
>>> github. Here is the updated text:
>>> https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/blob/master/emu-charter.md
>>>
>>> and here is the diff from the previous version:
>>> https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/commit/be1bf557355ecba5d5ee35ab27f3=
e8fae8c06eef
>>>
>>> --Mohit
>>>
>>> On 9/18/19 11:37 AM, Georgios Z. Papadopoulos wrote:
>>>> Dear Joe, Mohit and all,
>>>>
>>>> In overall I find the text well written, while the objectives well=20
>>>> defined.
>>>> Below I have very few comments :
>>>>
>>>> * TLS is not defined.
>>>> *=C2=A0Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS) is defined twice.
>>>> *=C2=A0- An update to enable the use of TLS 1.3 in the context of=20
>>>> EAP-TLS (RFC 5216). */This document will pdate the security=20
>>>> considerations relating to EAP-TLS, document the implications of=20
>>>> using new vs. old TLS versions, add any recently gained new=20
>>>> knowledge on vulnerabilities, and discuss the possible implications =

>>>> of pervasive surveillance./*
>>>>
>>>> This last point, maybe could be divided in several sentences, since =

>>>> I find it too long and, thus, hard to follow.
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks for your efforts.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Georgios
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 20:50, Mohit Sethi M=20
>>>>> >=20
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please send in your comments on the charter text by Wednesday,=20
>>>>> September 18, 2019.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe and Mohit
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/21/19 11:13 AM, Mohit Sethi M wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for a productive meeting @ IETF 105. We had discussed=20
>>>>>> the new charter text during the working group session in=20
>>>>>> Montreal. Please find the same text below. This text builds upon=20
>>>>>> our current charter. Feel free to suggest changes. RFC 2418=20
>>>>>> section 2.2 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.2 says=20
>>>>>> the following about a working group charter:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     2. Specifies the direction or objectives of the working group=
 and
>>>>>>>        describes the approach that will be taken to achieve the g=
oals;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please keep this in mind when suggesting changes. Once the text=20
>>>>>> is ready, we will send it to the IESG for review.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe and Mohit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP) [RFC 3748] is a=20
>>>>>> network access authentication framework used, for instance, in=20
>>>>>> VPN and mobile networks. EAP itself is a simple protocol and=20
>>>>>> actual authentication happens in EAP methods. Several EAP methods =

>>>>>> have been developed at the IETF and support for EAP exists in a=20
>>>>>> broad set of devices. Previous larger EAP-related efforts at the=20
>>>>>> IETF included rewriting the base EAP protocol specification and=20
>>>>>> the development of several standards track EAP methods.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> EAP methods are generally based on existing security technologies =

>>>>>> such as TLS and SIM cards. Our understanding of security threats=20
>>>>>> is continuously evolving. This has driven the evolution of=20
>>>>>> several of these underlying technologies. As an example, IETF has =

>>>>>> standardized a new and improved version of TLS in RFC 8446. The=20
>>>>>> group will therefore provide guidance and update EAP method=20
>>>>>> specifications where necessary to enable the use of new versions=20
>>>>>> of these underlying technologies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the same time, some new use cases for EAP have been=20
>>>>>> identified. EAP is now more broadly in mobile network=20
>>>>>> authentication. The group will update existing EAP methods such=20
>>>>>> as EAP-AKA' to stay in sync with updates to the referenced 3GPP=20
>>>>>> specifications. RFC 7258 notes that pervasive monitoring is an=20
>>>>>> attack. Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS) is an important security=20
>>>>>> property for modern protocols to thwart pervasive monitoring. The =

>>>>>> group will therefore work on an extension to EAP-AKA' for=20
>>>>>> providing Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Out-of-band (OOB) refers to a separate communication channel=20
>>>>>> independent of the primary in-band channel over which the actual=20
>>>>>> network communication takes place. OOB channels are now used for=20
>>>>>> authentication in a variety of protocols and devices=20
>>>>>> (draft-ietf-oauth-device-flow-13, WhatsApp Web, etc.). Many users =

>>>>>> are accustomed to tapping NFC or scanning QR codes. However, EAP=20
>>>>>> currently does not have any standard methods that support=20
>>>>>> authentication based on OOB channels. The group will therefore=20
>>>>>> work on an EAP method where authentication is based on an=20
>>>>>> out-of-band channel between the peer and the server.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> EAP authentication is based on credentials available on the peer=20
>>>>>> and the server. However, some EAP methods use credentials that=20
>>>>>> are time or domain limited (such as EAP-POTP), and there may be a =

>>>>>> need for creating long term credentials for re-authenticating the =

>>>>>> peer in a more general context. The group will investigate=20
>>>>>> minimal mechanisms with which limited-use EAP authentication=20
>>>>>> credentials can be used for creating general-use long-term=20
>>>>>> credentials.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In summary, the working group shall produce the following document=
s:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =C2=A0- An update to enable the use of TLS 1.3 in the context of=20
>>>>>> EAP-TLS (RFC 5216). This document will pdate the security=20
>>>>>> considerations relating to EAP-TLS, document the implications of=20
>>>>>> using new vs. old TLS versions, add any recently gained new=20
>>>>>> knowledge on vulnerabilities, and discuss the possible=20
>>>>>> implications of pervasive surveillance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =C2=A0- Several EAP methods such EAP-TTLS and EAP-FAST use an oute=
r=20
>>>>>> TLS tunnel. Provide guidance or update the relevant=20
>>>>>> specifications explaining how those EAP methods (PEAP/TTLS/TEAP)=20
>>>>>> will work with TLS 1.3. This will also involve maintenance work=20
>>>>>> based on erratas found in published specifications (such as=20
>>>>>> EAP-TEAP).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Define session identifiers for fast re-authentication for=20
>>>>>> EAP-SIM, EAP-AKA, and EAP-AKA=E2=80=99. The lack of this definitio=
n is a=20
>>>>>> recently discovered bug in the original RFCs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Update the EAP-AKA' specification (RFC 5448) to ensure that its =

>>>>>> capability to provide a cryptographic binding to network context=20
>>>>>> stays in sync with updates to the referenced 3GPP specifications. =

>>>>>> The document will also contain any recently gained new knowledge=20
>>>>>> on vulnerabilities or the possible implications of pervasive=20
>>>>>> surveillance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Develop an extension to EAP-AKA' such that Perfect Forward=20
>>>>>> Secrecy can be provided. There may also be privacy improvements=20
>>>>>> that have become feasible with the=C2=A0 introduction of recent=20
>>>>>> identity privacy improvements in 3GPP networks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Gather experience regarding the use of large certificates and=20
>>>>>> long certificate chains in the context of EAP-TLS (all versions), =

>>>>>> as some implementations and access networks may limit the number=20
>>>>>> of EAP packet exchanges that can be handled. Document operational =

>>>>>> recommendations or other mitigation strategies to avoid issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Define a standard EAP method for mutual authentication between=20
>>>>>> a peer and a server that is based on an out-of-band channel. The=20
>>>>>> method itself shall be independent of the underlying OOB channel=20
>>>>>> and shall support a variety of OOB channels such as NFC,=20
>>>>>> dynamically generated QR codes, audio, and visible light.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Define mechanisms by which EAP methods can support creation of=20
>>>>>> long-term credentials for the peer based on initial limited-use=20
>>>>>> credentials.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The working group is expected to stay in close collaboration with =

>>>>>> the EAP deployment community, the TLS working group (for EAP-TLS=20
>>>>>> work), and the 3GPP security architecture group (for EAP-AKA' work=
)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Emu mailing list
>>>>>> Emu@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Emu mailing list
>>>>> Emu@ietf.org 
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Emu mailing list
>>>> Emu@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emu mailing list
>>> Emu@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>> --=20
>> Best Regards,
>> Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
>> OpenCA Labs Director
>> OpenCA Logo
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emu mailing list
>> Emu@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
--=20
Best Regards,
Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
OpenCA Labs Director
OpenCA Logo

--------------82EEDB4BA128EBFCF8409CB9
Content-Type: multipart/related;
 boundary="------------AF4A16BA24053516091D7749"


--------------AF4A16BA24053516091D7749
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Hi Mohit, all,

    
I have a question for you - in which sense you mean "prudent" ?

    
Are you saying that creating "general-use" credentials or
      provisioning credentials is different ? Creating "general-use"
      credentials instead of provisioning/managing the Access Network
      credentials seems way more scary and generic than the text I
      proposed (which limits the scope of the credentials you should
      manage with EAP to the credentials that are used to access the
      network), therefore, because of your comment, I would like to have
      some clarifications here because my interpretation could be
      different than yours... and, based on that, my "happiness" level
      can be different than initially reported :D 

    

    
In particular, I would like to understand if the following
      operations can be supported by an EAP method:

    
    
      
  • Renewing Existing credentials (i.e., maybe credentials that
        were generated via the EAP method in the first place)
    • 
      
  • Removing Existing credentials (i.e., the network will not use
        that credential anymore, therefore it tasks the device to remove
        them)
    
      
    • 
    

    
Personally, for the work we are doing in different types of
      Access Networks (3gpp, CBRS-A, WiFi / WFA, and DOCSIS(r)), I think
      that the advantage of the EAP method is about managing the
      credentials that are also consumed by the EAP framework - I would
      not let my application-layer credentials be managed by the Access
      Network... and the opposite should apply as well, IMHO.

    
As long as both views are supported, I am ok with the text.
        

    

    
However, if your interpretation of the charter would not allow
      operations like registering an existing long-term credential to
      access the network (e.g., the device cannot generate/use a
      different one), renewing the credentials used to access the
      network, or deleting/removing/revoking existing credentials (i.e.,
      no need to keep a private key or secrets around if it is not
      useful), then I would not be happy with the text.

    
Can you please provide clarifications on the above points ?

    
Also, you mention that there is an IESG meeting on October 31st -
      is it possible to participate to that meeting ? If so, can you
      please let us know the meetings' details... ?

    
Last but not least - I sent you the request earlier for a slot at
      IETF 106 for EAP-CREDS and I would like to confirm again with you
      we have the slot (I do not recall seeing your reply to that
      message).

    

    
Cheers,

      Max

    


    

    
On 10/15/19 2:07 AM, Mohit Sethi M
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
Dear Dr. Pala,

      
I think we need to be more prudent when using terms such as
        "credential provisioning" and "credential management". The
        bullet later on in the current charter text specifically says
        that the credentials are for the EAP peer:

      

        
Define mechanisms by which EAP methods can support creation of long-term credentials for the peer based on initial limited-use credentials.

      

      Given that you are happy with the current text, I have a
      preference to leave it in its current form. We are hoping that the
      IESG will discuss this in their telechat on 31 October (which is
      also the last chance before Singapore).
      

      
--Mohit

      

      
On 10/15/19 3:11 AM, Dr. Pala wrote:

      

      

        
Hi Mohit, all,

        

        
sorry for the long delay in replying (probably mute at this
          point), however I think the new text looks great. The only
          possible change I would provide is the possibility to restrict
          the scope for the credentials management part. In particular,
          I would change the following:

        

          
The group will investigate minimal mechanisms with which
            limited-use EAP authentication credentials can be used for
            creating general-use long-term credentials.

        

        
With something scoped to the credentials for accessing the
          network itself (instead of a generic credentials provisioning
          mechanism):

        

          
The group will investigate minimal mechanisms to manage
            long-term credentials that are use to access the network.

        

        
This would probably make the management of credentials scoped
          to providing and managing the access credentials that the
          network is authoritative for - I would feel a bit "un-ease" to
          provide mechanisms to provision credentials to be used outside
          the access network context (just because it might not be the
          best enforcement point).

        
Given that I would be happier with a reduced scope (unless
          there are good reasons not to limit the scope), I am also
          happy with the current text (since allows EAP-CREDS to be
          discussed).

        
Thanks,

          Max

        


        

        
On 9/21/19 6:16 AM, Mohit Sethi M
          wrote:

        

        

          
Hi Georgios,

          
Thanks for reading the charter. I have addressed your
            comments on github. Here is the updated text:

            https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/blob/master/emu-charter.md

            

            and here is the diff from the previous version:

            https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/commit/be1bf557355ecba5d5ee35ab27f3e8fae8c06eef

          

          
--Mohit

          

          
On 9/18/19 11:37 AM, Georgios Z.
            Papadopoulos wrote:

          

          

            Dear Joe, Mohit and all,
            


            

            
In overall I find the text well written, while
              the objectives well defined.

            

              
Below I have very few comments :

              


              

              
* TLS is not defined. 

              
* Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS) is defined
                twice.

              
* - An update to enable the use of TLS 1.3
                in the context of EAP-TLS (RFC 5216). This document will pdate the security
                    considerations relating to EAP-TLS, document the
                    implications of using new vs. old TLS versions, add
                    any recently gained new knowledge on
                    vulnerabilities, and discuss the possible
                    implications of pervasive surveillance.

              


              

              
This last point, maybe could be divided in
                several sentences, since I find it too long and, thus,
                hard to follow.

              


              

              
Many thanks for your efforts.

              


              

              
Best regards,

              
Georgios

              


              

            

            

            

              

                
On Sep 11, 2019, at 20:50, Mohit Sethi M
                  <mohit.m.sethi@ericsson.com>
                  wrote:

                

                

                  

                    
Dear all,

                    
Please send in your comments on the
                      charter text by Wednesday, September 18, 2019.
                      

                    

                    
Joe and Mohit

                    

                    
On 8/21/19 11:13 AM,
                      Mohit Sethi M wrote:

                    

                    

                      
Dear all,

                      
Thank you for a productive meeting @
                        IETF 105. We had discussed the new charter text
                        during the working group session in Montreal.
                        Please find the same text below. This text
                        builds upon our current charter. Feel free to
                        suggest changes. RFC 2418 section 2.2 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.2 says the following
                        about a working group charter:

                      

                        
   2. Specifies the direction or objectives of the working group and
      describes the approach that will be taken to achieve the goals;

                      

                      

                      Please keep this in mind when suggesting changes.
                      Once the text is ready, we will send it to the
                      IESG for review.

                      
Joe and Mohit

                      
------------------------

                        

                        The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP)
                        [RFC 3748] is a network access authentication
                        framework used, for instance, in VPN and mobile
                        networks. EAP itself is a simple protocol and
                        actual authentication happens in EAP methods.
                        Several EAP methods have been developed at the
                        IETF and support for EAP exists in a broad set
                        of devices. Previous larger EAP-related efforts
                        at the IETF included rewriting the base EAP
                        protocol specification and the development of
                        several standards track EAP methods.

                        

                        EAP methods are generally based on existing
                        security technologies such as TLS and SIM cards.
                        Our understanding of security threats is
                        continuously evolving. This has driven the
                        evolution of several of these underlying
                        technologies. As an example, IETF has
                        standardized a new and improved version of TLS
                        in RFC 8446. The group will therefore provide
                        guidance and update EAP method specifications
                        where necessary to enable the use of new
                        versions of these underlying technologies.
                        

                        

                        At the same time, some new use cases for EAP
                        have been identified. EAP is now more broadly in
                        mobile network authentication. The group will
                        update existing EAP methods such as EAP-AKA' to
                        stay in sync with updates to the referenced 3GPP
                        specifications. RFC 7258 notes that pervasive
                        monitoring is an attack. Perfect Forward Secrecy
                        (PFS) is an important security property for
                        modern protocols to thwart pervasive monitoring.
                        The group will therefore work on an extension to
                        EAP-AKA' for providing Perfect Forward Secrecy
                        (PFS).

                        

                        Out-of-band (OOB) refers to a separate
                        communication channel independent of the primary
                        in-band channel over which the actual network
                        communication takes place. OOB channels are now
                        used for authentication in a variety of
                        protocols and devices
                        (draft-ietf-oauth-device-flow-13, WhatsApp Web,
                        etc.). Many users are accustomed to tapping NFC
                        or scanning QR codes. However, EAP currently
                        does not have any standard methods that support
                        authentication based on OOB channels. The group
                        will therefore work on an EAP method where
                        authentication is based on an out-of-band
                        channel between the peer and the server.

                        

                        EAP authentication is based on credentials
                        available on the peer and the server. However,
                        some EAP methods use credentials that are time
                        or domain limited (such as EAP-POTP), and there
                        may be a need for creating long term credentials
                        for re-authenticating the peer in a more general
                        context. The group will investigate minimal
                        mechanisms with which limited-use EAP
                        authentication credentials can be used for
                        creating general-use long-term credentials.

                        

                        In summary, the working group shall produce the
                        following documents:

                        

                         - An update to enable the use of TLS 1.3 in the
                        context of EAP-TLS (RFC 5216). This document
                        will pdate the security considerations relating
                        to EAP-TLS, document the implications of using
                        new vs. old TLS versions, add any recently
                        gained new knowledge on vulnerabilities, and
                        discuss the possible implications of pervasive
                        surveillance.

                        

                         - Several EAP methods such EAP-TTLS and
                        EAP-FAST use an outer TLS tunnel. Provide
                        guidance or update the relevant specifications
                        explaining how those EAP methods
                        (PEAP/TTLS/TEAP) will work with TLS 1.3. This
                        will also involve maintenance work based on
                        erratas found in published specifications (such
                        as EAP-TEAP).

                        

                        - Define session identifiers for fast
                        re-authentication for EAP-SIM, EAP-AKA, and
                        EAP-AKA’. The lack of this definition is a
                        recently discovered bug in the original RFCs.

                      
- Update the EAP-AKA' specification
                        (RFC 5448) to ensure that its capability to
                        provide a cryptographic binding to network
                        context stays in sync with updates to the
                        referenced 3GPP specifications. The document
                        will also contain any recently gained new
                        knowledge on vulnerabilities or the possible
                        implications of pervasive surveillance.

                        

                        - Develop an extension to EAP-AKA' such that
                        Perfect Forward Secrecy can be provided. There
                        may also be privacy improvements that have
                        become feasible with the  introduction of recent
                        identity privacy improvements in 3GPP networks.

                        

                        - Gather experience regarding the use of large
                        certificates and long certificate chains in the
                        context of EAP-TLS (all versions), as some
                        implementations and access networks may limit
                        the number of EAP packet exchanges that can be
                        handled. Document operational recommendations or
                        other mitigation strategies to avoid issues.

                        

                        - Define a standard EAP method for mutual
                        authentication between a peer and a server that
                        is based on an out-of-band channel. The method
                        itself shall be independent of the underlying
                        OOB channel and shall support a variety of OOB
                        channels such as NFC, dynamically generated QR
                        codes, audio, and visible light.

                        

                        - Define mechanisms by which EAP methods can
                        support creation of long-term credentials for
                        the peer based on initial limited-use
                        credentials.

                        

                        The working group is expected to stay in close
                        collaboration with the EAP deployment community,
                        the TLS working group (for EAP-TLS work), and
                        the 3GPP security architecture group (for
                        EAP-AKA' work)

                        

                        ------------------------

                      

                      

                      

                      
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


                    

                  

                  _______________________________________________

                  Emu mailing list

                  Emu@ietf.org

                  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu

                

              

            

            

            

            

            
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


          

          

          

          
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


        

        
-- 

          
Best Regards,
            
Massimiliano
              Pala, Ph.D.

              OpenCA Labs Director

            

            OpenCA Logo

          

        

        

        

        
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


      

    

    
-- 

      

        Best Regards,
        

          Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.

          OpenCA Labs Director

        

        OpenCA Logo

      

    

  


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From: Mohit Sethi M 
To: "Dr. Pala" , Mohit Sethi M , "emu@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Emu] Re-charter text
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--_005_dddd5884896b51088c59511e2440afb7ericssoncom_--


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From: "Dr. Pala" 
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Hi Mohit,

On 10/24/19 3:30 AM, Mohit Sethi M wrote:
>
> Dear Dr. Pala,
>
> [ ... ]

I replied privately to the first part of this e-mail - I apologize if my =

e-mail did offend you or was in any way inappropriate. To clarify, my=20
questions were in reply to Mohit's comments to my previous e-mail on the =

topic [*]. This said, I would like to stay on topic and focus on the=20
technical contents. In particular:

> - I think the current text is broad enough to support renewing of=20
> credentials. Revoking of credentials has always existed in EAP/AAA=20
> architecture. But please note that this does not imply a working group =

> consensus on what you are suggesting. Credential management can=20
> involve many more things and not just renewing/revocation. Therefore,=20
> I had suggested that we are more "prudent", i.e. "careful", in our=20
> choice of words.
>
I understand - thanks for clarifying the point. My question was about=20
understanding if the renewal operation was something supported by the=20
charter. This was my initial interpretation too, but I just asked in=20
response of your comment about being "prudent".

> - EAP is not run in isolation and often may take into account=20
> information from various layers above or below. For example, EAP=20
> implementations can check whether the SSID/BSSID that the peer is=20
> connecting through is correct. While some may call this stack=20
> violation, other security folks call this channel binding. I can=20
> certainly see that some applications may want to bind the application=20
> authentication with the underlying EAP authentication. In fact, in 5G, =

> MSK and EMSK exported from EAP-AKA` is used for a variety of other=20
> purposes (such as AKMA and GBA).
>
> [ ... ]
>
That is true - I did not think about these use cases. Indeed, EAP can be =

used (especially in 3gpp/mobile networks) to leverage the USIM=20
credentials for, for example, N3IWF/W-AGF for non-3GPP access. However,=20
usually, also in that model is still the Core (i.e., your "home"=20
network) that handles the credentials, which might not be the same as=20
the access network (i.e., roaming) - which is more similar to my=20
use-case. The one I was referring to is the situation where the Access=20
Network validates your credentials that were issued somewhere else and=20
now it wants to renew your credentials with something else: this is=20
where it gets tricky about deciding who is the authoritative source of=20
the credentials.

Anyhow, thanks for clarifying the interpretation of the charter.

Cheers,
Max

[*] =3D I think it is unfair to call me "unprofessional" and "erratic" in=
=20
a public forum - I contacted the chair(s) separately to clarify the=20
situation.

> On 10/24/19 3:11 AM, Dr. Pala wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mohit, all,
>>
>> I have a question for you - in which sense you mean "prudent" ?
>>
>> Are you saying that creating "general-use" credentials or=20
>> provisioning credentials is different ? Creating "general-use"=20
>> credentials instead of provisioning/managing the Access Network=20
>> credentials seems way more scary and generic than the text I proposed =

>> (which limits the scope of the credentials you should manage with EAP =

>> to the credentials that are used to access the network), therefore,=20
>> because of your comment, I would like to have some clarifications=20
>> here because my interpretation could be different than yours... and,=20
>> based on that, my "happiness" level can be different than initially=20
>> reported :D
>>
>> In particular, I would like to understand if the following operations =

>> can be supported by an EAP method:
>>
>>   * Renewing Existing credentials (i.e., maybe credentials that were
>>     generated via the EAP method in the first place)
>>   * Removing Existing credentials (i.e., the network will not use
>>     that credential anymore, therefore it tasks the device to remove
>>     them)
>>
>> Personally, for the work we are doing in different types of Access=20
>> Networks (3gpp, CBRS-A, WiFi / WFA, and DOCSIS(r)), I think that the=20
>> advantage of the EAP method is about managing the credentials that=20
>> are also consumed by the EAP framework - I would not let my=20
>> application-layer credentials be managed by the Access Network... and =

>> the opposite should apply as well, IMHO.
>>
>> /*As long as both views are supported, I am ok with the text. */
>>
>> However, if your interpretation of the charter would not allow=20
>> operations like registering an existing long-term credential to=20
>> access the network (e.g., the device cannot generate/use a different=20
>> one), renewing the credentials used to access the network, or=20
>> deleting/removing/revoking existing credentials (i.e., no need to=20
>> keep a private key or secrets around if it is not useful), then I=20
>> would not be happy with the text.
>>
>> Can you please provide clarifications on the above points ?
>>
>> Also, you mention that there is an IESG meeting on October 31st - is=20
>> it possible to participate to that meeting ? If so, can you please=20
>> let us know the meetings' details... ?
>>
>> Last but not least - I sent you the request earlier for a slot at=20
>> IETF 106 for EAP-CREDS and I would like to confirm again with you we=20
>> have the slot (I do not recall seeing your reply to that message).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Max
>>
>>
>> On 10/15/19 2:07 AM, Mohit Sethi M wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Dr. Pala,
>>>
>>> I think we need to be more prudent when using terms such as=20
>>> "credential provisioning" and "credential management". The bullet=20
>>> later on in the current charter text specifically says that the=20
>>> credentials are for the EAP peer:
>>>
>>>> |Define mechanisms by which EAP methods can support creation of=20
>>>> long-term credentials for the peer based on initial limited-use=20
>>>> credentials.|
>>> Given that you are happy with the current text, I have a preference=20
>>> to leave it in its current form. We are hoping that the IESG will=20
>>> discuss this in their telechat on 31 October (which is also the last =

>>> chance before Singapore).
>>>
>>> --Mohit
>>>
>>> On 10/15/19 3:11 AM, Dr. Pala wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mohit, all,
>>>>
>>>> sorry for the long delay in replying (probably mute at this point), =

>>>> however I think the new text looks great. The only possible change=20
>>>> I would provide is the possibility to restrict the scope for the=20
>>>> credentials management part. In particular, I would change the=20
>>>> following:
>>>>
>>>>     The group will investigate minimal mechanisms with which
>>>>     limited-use EAP authentication credentials can be used for
>>>>     creating general-use long-term credentials.
>>>>
>>>> With something scoped to the credentials for accessing the network=20
>>>> itself (instead of a generic credentials provisioning mechanism):
>>>>
>>>>     The group will investigate minimal mechanisms to manage
>>>>     long-term credentials that are use to access the network.
>>>>
>>>> This would probably make the management of credentials scoped to=20
>>>> providing and managing the access credentials that the network is=20
>>>> authoritative for - I would feel a bit "un-ease" to provide=20
>>>> mechanisms to provision credentials to be used outside the access=20
>>>> network context (just because it might not be the best enforcement=20
>>>> point).
>>>>
>>>> Given that I would be happier with a reduced scope (unless there=20
>>>> are good reasons not to limit the scope), I am also happy with the=20
>>>> current text (since allows EAP-CREDS to be discussed).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Max
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/21/19 6:16 AM, Mohit Sethi M wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Georgios,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for reading the charter. I have addressed your comments on=20
>>>>> github. Here is the updated text:
>>>>> https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/blob/master/emu-charter.md
>>>>>
>>>>> and here is the diff from the previous version:
>>>>> https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/commit/be1bf557355ecba5d5ee35ab27=
f3e8fae8c06eef
>>>>>
>>>>> --Mohit
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/18/19 11:37 AM, Georgios Z. Papadopoulos wrote:
>>>>>> Dear Joe, Mohit and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In overall I find the text well written, while the objectives=20
>>>>>> well defined.
>>>>>> Below I have very few comments :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * TLS is not defined.
>>>>>> *=C2=A0Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS) is defined twice.
>>>>>> *=C2=A0- An update to enable the use of TLS 1.3 in the context of =

>>>>>> EAP-TLS (RFC 5216). */This document will pdate the security=20
>>>>>> considerations relating to EAP-TLS, document the implications of=20
>>>>>> using new vs. old TLS versions, add any recently gained new=20
>>>>>> knowledge on vulnerabilities, and discuss the possible=20
>>>>>> implications of pervasive surveillance./*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This last point, maybe could be divided in several sentences,=20
>>>>>> since I find it too long and, thus, hard to follow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many thanks for your efforts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Georgios
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 20:50, Mohit Sethi M=20
>>>>>>> > =

>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please send in your comments on the charter text by Wednesday,=20
>>>>>>> September 18, 2019.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe and Mohit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/21/19 11:13 AM, Mohit Sethi M wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you for a productive meeting @ IETF 105. We had discussed =

>>>>>>>> the new charter text during the working group session in=20
>>>>>>>> Montreal. Please find the same text below. This text builds=20
>>>>>>>> upon our current charter. Feel free to suggest changes. RFC=20
>>>>>>>> 2418 section 2.2=20
>>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.2 says the=20
>>>>>>>> following about a working group charter:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>     2. Specifies the direction or objectives of the working gro=
up and
>>>>>>>>>        describes the approach that will be taken to achieve the=
 goals;
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please keep this in mind when suggesting changes. Once the text =

>>>>>>>> is ready, we will send it to the IESG for review.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe and Mohit
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP) [RFC 3748] is a=20
>>>>>>>> network access authentication framework used, for instance, in=20
>>>>>>>> VPN and mobile networks. EAP itself is a simple protocol and=20
>>>>>>>> actual authentication happens in EAP methods. Several EAP=20
>>>>>>>> methods have been developed at the IETF and support for EAP=20
>>>>>>>> exists in a broad set of devices. Previous larger EAP-related=20
>>>>>>>> efforts at the IETF included rewriting the base EAP protocol=20
>>>>>>>> specification and the development of several standards track=20
>>>>>>>> EAP methods.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> EAP methods are generally based on existing security=20
>>>>>>>> technologies such as TLS and SIM cards. Our understanding of=20
>>>>>>>> security threats is continuously evolving. This has driven the=20
>>>>>>>> evolution of several of these underlying technologies. As an=20
>>>>>>>> example, IETF has standardized a new and improved version of=20
>>>>>>>> TLS in RFC 8446. The group will therefore provide guidance and=20
>>>>>>>> update EAP method specifications where necessary to enable the=20
>>>>>>>> use of new versions of these underlying technologies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the same time, some new use cases for EAP have been=20
>>>>>>>> identified. EAP is now more broadly in mobile network=20
>>>>>>>> authentication. The group will update existing EAP methods such =

>>>>>>>> as EAP-AKA' to stay in sync with updates to the referenced 3GPP =

>>>>>>>> specifications. RFC 7258 notes that pervasive monitoring is an=20
>>>>>>>> attack. Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS) is an important security=20
>>>>>>>> property for modern protocols to thwart pervasive monitoring.=20
>>>>>>>> The group will therefore work on an extension to EAP-AKA' for=20
>>>>>>>> providing Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Out-of-band (OOB) refers to a separate communication channel=20
>>>>>>>> independent of the primary in-band channel over which the=20
>>>>>>>> actual network communication takes place. OOB channels are now=20
>>>>>>>> used for authentication in a variety of protocols and devices=20
>>>>>>>> (draft-ietf-oauth-device-flow-13, WhatsApp Web, etc.). Many=20
>>>>>>>> users are accustomed to tapping NFC or scanning QR codes.=20
>>>>>>>> However, EAP currently does not have any standard methods that=20
>>>>>>>> support authentication based on OOB channels. The group will=20
>>>>>>>> therefore work on an EAP method where authentication is based=20
>>>>>>>> on an out-of-band channel between the peer and the server.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> EAP authentication is based on credentials available on the=20
>>>>>>>> peer and the server. However, some EAP methods use credentials=20
>>>>>>>> that are time or domain limited (such as EAP-POTP), and there=20
>>>>>>>> may be a need for creating long term credentials for=20
>>>>>>>> re-authenticating the peer in a more general context. The group =

>>>>>>>> will investigate minimal mechanisms with which limited-use EAP=20
>>>>>>>> authentication credentials can be used for creating general-use =

>>>>>>>> long-term credentials.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In summary, the working group shall produce the following=20
>>>>>>>> documents:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> =C2=A0- An update to enable the use of TLS 1.3 in the context of=
=20
>>>>>>>> EAP-TLS (RFC 5216). This document will pdate the security=20
>>>>>>>> considerations relating to EAP-TLS, document the implications=20
>>>>>>>> of using new vs. old TLS versions, add any recently gained new=20
>>>>>>>> knowledge on vulnerabilities, and discuss the possible=20
>>>>>>>> implications of pervasive surveillance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> =C2=A0- Several EAP methods such EAP-TTLS and EAP-FAST use an ou=
ter=20
>>>>>>>> TLS tunnel. Provide guidance or update the relevant=20
>>>>>>>> specifications explaining how those EAP methods=20
>>>>>>>> (PEAP/TTLS/TEAP) will work with TLS 1.3. This will also involve =

>>>>>>>> maintenance work based on erratas found in published=20
>>>>>>>> specifications (such as EAP-TEAP).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Define session identifiers for fast re-authentication for=20
>>>>>>>> EAP-SIM, EAP-AKA, and EAP-AKA=E2=80=99. The lack of this definit=
ion is=20
>>>>>>>> a recently discovered bug in the original RFCs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Update the EAP-AKA' specification (RFC 5448) to ensure that=20
>>>>>>>> its capability to provide a cryptographic binding to network=20
>>>>>>>> context stays in sync with updates to the referenced 3GPP=20
>>>>>>>> specifications. The document will also contain any recently=20
>>>>>>>> gained new knowledge on vulnerabilities or the possible=20
>>>>>>>> implications of pervasive surveillance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Develop an extension to EAP-AKA' such that Perfect Forward=20
>>>>>>>> Secrecy can be provided. There may also be privacy improvements =

>>>>>>>> that have become feasible with the=C2=A0 introduction of recent =

>>>>>>>> identity privacy improvements in 3GPP networks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Gather experience regarding the use of large certificates and =

>>>>>>>> long certificate chains in the context of EAP-TLS (all=20
>>>>>>>> versions), as some implementations and access networks may=20
>>>>>>>> limit the number of EAP packet exchanges that can be handled.=20
>>>>>>>> Document operational recommendations or other mitigation=20
>>>>>>>> strategies to avoid issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Define a standard EAP method for mutual authentication=20
>>>>>>>> between a peer and a server that is based on an out-of-band=20
>>>>>>>> channel. The method itself shall be independent of the=20
>>>>>>>> underlying OOB channel and shall support a variety of OOB=20
>>>>>>>> channels such as NFC, dynamically generated QR codes, audio,=20
>>>>>>>> and visible light.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Define mechanisms by which EAP methods can support creation=20
>>>>>>>> of long-term credentials for the peer based on initial=20
>>>>>>>> limited-use credentials.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The working group is expected to stay in close collaboration=20
>>>>>>>> with the EAP deployment community, the TLS working group (for=20
>>>>>>>> EAP-TLS work), and the 3GPP security architecture group (for=20
>>>>>>>> EAP-AKA' work)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Emu mailing list
>>>>>>>> Emu@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Emu mailing list
>>>>>>> Emu@ietf.org 
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Emu mailing list
>>>>>> Emu@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Emu mailing list
>>>>> Emu@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>>>> --=20
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
>>>> OpenCA Labs Director
>>>> OpenCA Logo
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Emu mailing list
>>>> Emu@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>> --=20
>> Best Regards,
>> Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
>> OpenCA Labs Director
>> OpenCA Logo
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emu mailing list
>> Emu@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
--=20
Best Regards,
Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
OpenCA Labs Director
OpenCA Logo

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Hi Mohit,

    

    
On 10/24/19 3:30 AM, Mohit Sethi M
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
Dear Dr. Pala,

      [ ... ]

    

    
I replied privately to the first part of this e-mail - I
      apologize if my e-mail did offend you or was in any way
      inappropriate. To clarify, my questions were in reply to Mohit's
      comments to my previous e-mail on the topic [*]. This said, I
      would like to stay on topic and focus on the technical contents.
      In particular:

    

    

      
- I think the current text is broad enough to support renewing
        of credentials. Revoking of credentials has always existed in
        EAP/AAA architecture. But please note that this does not imply a
        working group consensus on what you are suggesting. Credential
        management can involve many more things and not just
        renewing/revocation. Therefore, I had suggested that we are more
        "prudent", i.e. "careful", in our choice of words.
        

      

    

    
I understand - thanks for clarifying the point. My question was
      about understanding if the renewal operation was something
      supported by the charter. This was my initial interpretation too,
      but I just asked in response of your comment about being
      "prudent".

    

    

      

      

      
- EAP is not run in isolation and often may take into account
        information from various layers above or below. For example, EAP
        implementations can check whether the SSID/BSSID that the peer
        is connecting through is correct. While some may call this stack
        violation, other security folks call this channel binding. I can
        certainly see that some applications may want to bind the
        application authentication with the underlying EAP
        authentication. In fact, in 5G, MSK and EMSK exported from
        EAP-AKA` is used for a variety of other purposes (such as AKMA
        and GBA). 

      

      
[ ... ]

      

    

    
That is true - I did not think about these use cases. Indeed, EAP
      can be used (especially in 3gpp/mobile networks) to leverage the
      USIM credentials for, for example, N3IWF/W-AGF for non-3GPP
      access. However, usually, also in that model is still the Core
      (i.e., your "home" network) that handles the credentials, which
      might not be the same as the access network (i.e., roaming) -
      which is more similar to my use-case. The one I was referring to
      is the situation where the Access Network validates your
      credentials that were issued somewhere else and now it wants to
      renew your credentials with something else: this is where it gets
      tricky about deciding who is the authoritative source of the
      credentials.

    
Anyhow, thanks for clarifying the interpretation of the charter.

    

    
Cheers,

      Max

    
[*] = I think it is unfair to call me "unprofessional" and
      "erratic" in a public forum - I contacted the chair(s) separately
      to clarify the situation.

    

      
On 10/24/19 3:11 AM, Dr. Pala wrote:

      

      

        
Hi Mohit, all,

        
I have a question for you - in which sense you mean "prudent"
          ?

        
Are you saying that creating "general-use" credentials or
          provisioning credentials is different ? Creating "general-use"
          credentials instead of provisioning/managing the Access
          Network credentials seems way more scary and generic than the
          text I proposed (which limits the scope of the credentials you
          should manage with EAP to the credentials that are used to
          access the network), therefore, because of your comment, I
          would like to have some clarifications here because my
          interpretation could be different than yours... and, based on
          that, my "happiness" level can be different than initially
          reported :D
          

        

        
In particular, I would like to understand if the following
          operations can be supported by an EAP method:

        
    
          
  • Renewing Existing credentials (i.e., maybe credentials
            that were generated via the EAP method in the first place)
    • 
          
  • Removing Existing credentials (i.e., the network will not
            use that credential anymore, therefore it tasks the device
            to remove them)
    
          
    • 
        

        
Personally, for the work we are doing in different types of
          Access Networks (3gpp, CBRS-A, WiFi / WFA, and DOCSIS(r)), I
          think that the advantage of the EAP method is about managing
          the credentials that are also consumed by the EAP framework -
          I would not let my application-layer credentials be managed by
          the Access Network... and the opposite should apply as well,
          IMHO.

        
As long as both views are supported, I am ok with the
              text. 

        

        
However, if your interpretation of the charter would not
          allow operations like registering an existing long-term
          credential to access the network (e.g., the device cannot
          generate/use a different one), renewing the credentials used
          to access the network, or deleting/removing/revoking existing
          credentials (i.e., no need to keep a private key or secrets
          around if it is not useful), then I would not be happy with
          the text.

        
Can you please provide clarifications on the above points ?

        
Also, you mention that there is an IESG meeting on October
          31st - is it possible to participate to that meeting ? If so,
          can you please let us know the meetings' details... ?

        
Last but not least - I sent you the request earlier for a
          slot at IETF 106 for EAP-CREDS and I would like to confirm
          again with you we have the slot (I do not recall seeing your
          reply to that message).

        

        
Cheers,

          Max

        


        

        
On 10/15/19 2:07 AM, Mohit Sethi M
          wrote:

        

        

          
Dear Dr. Pala,

          
I think we need to be more prudent when using terms such as
            "credential provisioning" and "credential management". The
            bullet later on in the current charter text specifically
            says that the credentials are for the EAP peer:

          

            
Define mechanisms by which EAP methods can support creation of long-term credentials for the peer based on initial limited-use credentials.

          

          Given that you are happy with the current text, I have a
          preference to leave it in its current form. We are hoping that
          the IESG will discuss this in their telechat on 31 October
          (which is also the last chance before Singapore).
          

          
--Mohit

          

          
On 10/15/19 3:11 AM, Dr. Pala
            wrote:

          

          

            
Hi Mohit, all,

            

            
sorry for the long delay in replying (probably mute at
              this point), however I think the new text looks great. The
              only possible change I would provide is the possibility to
              restrict the scope for the credentials management part. In
              particular, I would change the following:

            

              
The group will investigate minimal mechanisms with
                which limited-use EAP authentication credentials can be
                used for creating general-use long-term credentials.

            

            
With something scoped to the credentials for accessing
              the network itself (instead of a generic credentials
              provisioning mechanism):

            

              
The group will investigate minimal mechanisms to manage
                long-term credentials that are use to access the
                network.

            

            
This would probably make the management of credentials
              scoped to providing and managing the access credentials
              that the network is authoritative for - I would feel a bit
              "un-ease" to provide mechanisms to provision credentials
              to be used outside the access network context (just
              because it might not be the best enforcement point).

            
Given that I would be happier with a reduced scope
              (unless there are good reasons not to limit the scope), I
              am also happy with the current text (since allows
              EAP-CREDS to be discussed).

            
Thanks,

              Max

            


            

            
On 9/21/19 6:16 AM, Mohit Sethi
              M wrote:

            

            

              
Hi Georgios,

              
Thanks for reading the charter. I have addressed your
                comments on github. Here is the updated text:

                https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/blob/master/emu-charter.md

                

                and here is the diff from the previous version:

                https://github.com/emu-wg/charter/commit/be1bf557355ecba5d5ee35ab27f3e8fae8c06eef

              

              
--Mohit

              

              
On 9/18/19 11:37 AM, Georgios
                Z. Papadopoulos wrote:

              

              

                Dear Joe, Mohit and all,
                


                

                
In overall I find the text well written,
                  while the objectives well defined.

                

                  
Below I have very few comments :

                  


                  

                  
* TLS is not defined. 

                  
* Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS) is
                    defined twice.

                  
* - An update to enable the use of TLS
                    1.3 in the context of EAP-TLS (RFC 5216). This document will pdate the
                        security considerations relating to EAP-TLS,
                        document the implications of using new vs. old
                        TLS versions, add any recently gained new
                        knowledge on vulnerabilities, and discuss the
                        possible implications of pervasive surveillance.

                  


                  

                  
This last point, maybe could be divided
                    in several sentences, since I find it too long and,
                    thus, hard to follow.

                  


                  

                  
Many thanks for your efforts.

                  


                  

                  
Best regards,

                  
Georgios

                  


                  

                

                

                

                  

                    
On Sep 11, 2019, at 20:50, Mohit Sethi
                      M <mohit.m.sethi@ericsson.com>
                      wrote:

                    

                    

                      

                        
Dear all,

                        
Please send in your comments on the
                          charter text by Wednesday, September 18, 2019.
                          

                        

                        
Joe and Mohit

                        

                        
On 8/21/19 11:13
                          AM, Mohit Sethi M wrote:

                        

                        

                          
Dear all,

                          
Thank you for a productive meeting
                            @ IETF 105. We had discussed the new charter
                            text during the working group session in
                            Montreal. Please find the same text below.
                            This text builds upon our current charter.
                            Feel free to suggest changes. RFC 2418
                            section 2.2 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2418#section-2.2 says the following
                            about a working group charter:

                          

                            
   2. Specifies the direction or objectives of the working group and
      describes the approach that will be taken to achieve the goals;

                          

                          

                          Please keep this in mind when suggesting
                          changes. Once the text is ready, we will send
                          it to the IESG for review.

                          
Joe and Mohit

                          
------------------------

                            

                            The Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP)
                            [RFC 3748] is a network access
                            authentication framework used, for instance,
                            in VPN and mobile networks. EAP itself is a
                            simple protocol and actual authentication
                            happens in EAP methods. Several EAP methods
                            have been developed at the IETF and support
                            for EAP exists in a broad set of devices.
                            Previous larger EAP-related efforts at the
                            IETF included rewriting the base EAP
                            protocol specification and the development
                            of several standards track EAP methods.

                            

                            EAP methods are generally based on existing
                            security technologies such as TLS and SIM
                            cards. Our understanding of security threats
                            is continuously evolving. This has driven
                            the evolution of several of these underlying
                            technologies. As an example, IETF has
                            standardized a new and improved version of
                            TLS in RFC 8446. The group will therefore
                            provide guidance and update EAP method
                            specifications where necessary to enable the
                            use of new versions of these underlying
                            technologies.
                            

                            

                            At the same time, some new use cases for EAP
                            have been identified. EAP is now more
                            broadly in mobile network authentication.
                            The group will update existing EAP methods
                            such as EAP-AKA' to stay in sync with
                            updates to the referenced 3GPP
                            specifications. RFC 7258 notes that
                            pervasive monitoring is an attack. Perfect
                            Forward Secrecy (PFS) is an important
                            security property for modern protocols to
                            thwart pervasive monitoring. The group will
                            therefore work on an extension to EAP-AKA'
                            for providing Perfect Forward Secrecy (PFS).

                            

                            Out-of-band (OOB) refers to a separate
                            communication channel independent of the
                            primary in-band channel over which the
                            actual network communication takes place.
                            OOB channels are now used for authentication
                            in a variety of protocols and devices
                            (draft-ietf-oauth-device-flow-13, WhatsApp
                            Web, etc.). Many users are accustomed to
                            tapping NFC or scanning QR codes. However,
                            EAP currently does not have any standard
                            methods that support authentication based on
                            OOB channels. The group will therefore work
                            on an EAP method where authentication is
                            based on an out-of-band channel between the
                            peer and the server.

                            

                            EAP authentication is based on credentials
                            available on the peer and the server.
                            However, some EAP methods use credentials
                            that are time or domain limited (such as
                            EAP-POTP), and there may be a need for
                            creating long term credentials for
                            re-authenticating the peer in a more general
                            context. The group will investigate minimal
                            mechanisms with which limited-use EAP
                            authentication credentials can be used for
                            creating general-use long-term credentials.

                            

                            In summary, the working group shall produce
                            the following documents:

                            

                             - An update to enable the use of TLS 1.3 in
                            the context of EAP-TLS (RFC 5216). This
                            document will pdate the security
                            considerations relating to EAP-TLS, document
                            the implications of using new vs. old TLS
                            versions, add any recently gained new
                            knowledge on vulnerabilities, and discuss
                            the possible implications of pervasive
                            surveillance.

                            

                             - Several EAP methods such EAP-TTLS and
                            EAP-FAST use an outer TLS tunnel. Provide
                            guidance or update the relevant
                            specifications explaining how those EAP
                            methods (PEAP/TTLS/TEAP) will work with TLS
                            1.3. This will also involve maintenance work
                            based on erratas found in published
                            specifications (such as EAP-TEAP).

                            

                            - Define session identifiers for fast
                            re-authentication for EAP-SIM, EAP-AKA, and
                            EAP-AKA’. The lack of this definition is a
                            recently discovered bug in the original
                            RFCs.

                          
- Update the EAP-AKA'
                            specification (RFC 5448) to ensure that its
                            capability to provide a cryptographic
                            binding to network context stays in sync
                            with updates to the referenced 3GPP
                            specifications. The document will also
                            contain any recently gained new knowledge on
                            vulnerabilities or the possible implications
                            of pervasive surveillance.

                            

                            - Develop an extension to EAP-AKA' such that
                            Perfect Forward Secrecy can be provided.
                            There may also be privacy improvements that
                            have become feasible with the  introduction
                            of recent identity privacy improvements in
                            3GPP networks.

                            

                            - Gather experience regarding the use of
                            large certificates and long certificate
                            chains in the context of EAP-TLS (all
                            versions), as some implementations and
                            access networks may limit the number of EAP
                            packet exchanges that can be handled.
                            Document operational recommendations or
                            other mitigation strategies to avoid issues.

                            

                            - Define a standard EAP method for mutual
                            authentication between a peer and a server
                            that is based on an out-of-band channel. The
                            method itself shall be independent of the
                            underlying OOB channel and shall support a
                            variety of OOB channels such as NFC,
                            dynamically generated QR codes, audio, and
                            visible light.

                            

                            - Define mechanisms by which EAP methods can
                            support creation of long-term credentials
                            for the peer based on initial limited-use
                            credentials.

                            

                            The working group is expected to stay in
                            close collaboration with the EAP deployment
                            community, the TLS working group (for
                            EAP-TLS work), and the 3GPP security
                            architecture group (for EAP-AKA' work)

                            

                            ------------------------

                          

                          

                          

                          
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


                        

                      

                      _______________________________________________

                      Emu mailing list

                      Emu@ietf.org

                      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu

                    

                  

                

                

                

                

                
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


              

              

              

              
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


            

            
-- 

              
Best Regards,
                
Massimiliano
                  Pala, Ph.D.

                  OpenCA Labs Director

                

                OpenCA Logo

              

            

            

            

            
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


          

        

        
-- 

          
Best Regards,
            
Massimiliano
              Pala, Ph.D.

              OpenCA Labs Director

            

            OpenCA Logo

          

        

        

        

        
_______________________________________________
Emu mailing list
Emu@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu


      

    

    
-- 

      

        Best Regards,
        

          Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.

          OpenCA Labs Director

        

        OpenCA Logo

      

    

  


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Subject: [Emu] emu - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 106
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Dear Mohit Sethi,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    emu Session 1 (2:00 requested)
    Monday, 18 November 2019, Afternoon Session II 1550-1750
    Room Name: Hullet size: 100
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/sessions/emu.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: EAP Method Update
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Mohit Sethi

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 50
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 Chair Conflict: saag tls cfrg lwig
 Technology Overlap: curdle uta secdispatch oauth mls t2trg pearg lake
 Key Participant Conflict: sacm quic kitten bier acme 6lo


People who must be present:
  Jari Arkko
  Joseph A. Salowey
  Roman Danyliw
  Alan DeKok
  John Mattsson
  Mohit Sethi

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  If possible, please schedule early on during the IETF week. 
---------------------------------------------------------


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Joseph Salowey 
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 22:22:46 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: Michael Richardson ,  "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" ,  John Mattsson , EMU WG 
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Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 7:34 AM Eliot Lear  wrote:

>
>
> > On 11 Oct 2019, at 16:09, Michael Richardson  wrote:
> >
> > So, can wired just be a degenerate version of wifi, where there can be
> only
> > one "ESSID", and there are no beacons to consider?
>
>
> On the whole that has been my thought.  But it is a matter of which
> mechanism to degenerate to.  Is it TLS-PSK?  eDPP++?  TLS with naked public
> keys++?  And again, this is the on-prem case.  For cloud, we are well along.
>

[Joe] We are currently in a holding pattern with EAP-TLS.  It does not seem
right to delay it for functionality that we are not sure we have a use case
for.  If a use case develops then we can publish an update to EAP-TLS 1.3.
Do we have a use case for EAP-TLS-PSK that is blocked in the current
situation?



> Eliot
>

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=

On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 7:34 AM Eliot=
 Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:




> On 11 Oct 2019, at 16:09, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> wrote:

> 

> So, can wired just be a degenerate version of wifi, where there can be=
 only

> one "ESSID", and there are no beacons to consider?





On the whole that has been my thought.=C2=A0 But it is a matter of which me=
chanism to degenerate to.=C2=A0 Is it TLS-PSK?=C2=A0 eDPP++?=C2=A0 TLS with=
 naked public keys++?=C2=A0 And again, this is the on-prem case.=C2=A0 For =
cloud, we are well along.

[Joe] We are =
currently in a holding pattern with EAP-TLS.=C2=A0 It does not seem right t=
o delay it for functionality that we are not sure we have a use case for.=
=C2=A0 If a use case=C2=A0develops then we can publish an update to EAP-TLS=
 1.3.=C2=A0 Do we have a use case for EAP-TLS-PSK that is blocked in the cu=
rrent situation?





Eliot




--000000000000ff777f059619ec01--


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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 10:02:23 +0100
In-Reply-To: 
Cc: Michael Richardson , "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , John Mattsson , EMU WG 
To: Joseph Salowey 
References: <7828_1564869242_5D46027A_7828_348_1_02e001d54a45$e92ae900$bb80bb00$@augustcellars.com> <20b118932a4843b6b88e605799fafea8@aalto.fi> <211AD83C-D111-4EEB-AAF0-D9B5E521F4CF@deployingradius.com> <8F355C6F-DF1E-4E03-B75E-0F1D2508B9D4@ericsson.com> <246280B8-6E5C-484B-95BD-9C940C98C507@deployingradius.com>  <17E08795-4E4E-4507-8384-836020966BCF@deployingradius.com> <634C375D-FBF3-4297-A5C0-E68C903CA34A@ericsson.com>   <26738.1570791861@dooku.sandelman.ca>  <9501.1570802988@dooku.sandelman.ca>  
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> On 30 Oct 2019, at 06:22, Joseph Salowey  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 7:34 AM Eliot Lear > wrote:
>=20
>=20
> > On 11 Oct 2019, at 16:09, Michael Richardson > wrote:
> >
> > So, can wired just be a degenerate version of wifi, where there can =
be only
> > one "ESSID", and there are no beacons to consider?
>=20
>=20
> On the whole that has been my thought.  But it is a matter of which =
mechanism to degenerate to.  Is it TLS-PSK?  eDPP++?  TLS with naked =
public keys++?  And again, this is the on-prem case.  For cloud, we are =
well along.
>=20
> [Joe] We are currently in a holding pattern with EAP-TLS.  It does not =
seem right to delay it for functionality that we are not sure we have a =
use case for.  If a use case develops then we can publish an update to =
EAP-TLS 1.3.  Do we have a use case for EAP-TLS-PSK that is blocked in =
the current situation?
>=20

I would suggest that we do have a well-identified use case, although it =
has some issues, and that is IoT onboarding for on-prem equipment, as =
Owen described.  I do not know if we will end up executing on that use =
case, but it is a use case.  On the whole, the argument has to go the =
other way: why should we cripple a particular TLS method without strong =
justification?  The more we specialize the longer it takes to deliver =
new services, and the harder they are to support.

A fair argument, if it can be made, and I am not convinced it has been =
fully expressed, is the idea that there is no context by which one can =
separate fast restart and initial authentication.  This is Alan=E2=80=99s =
concern.  I=E2=80=99m not saying it=E2=80=99s without merit, but what I =
cannot yet see is whether it is an implementation or a protocol matter.

Eliot

>=20
>=20
> Eliot


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On 30 Oct 2019, at 06:22, Joseph Salowey <joe@salowey.net> =
wrote:



On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 7:34 AM Eliot =
Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:




> On 11 Oct 2019, at 16:09, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> wrote:

> 

> So, can wired just be a degenerate version of wifi, where there can =
be only

> one "ESSID", and there are no beacons to consider?





On the whole that has been my thought.  But it is a matter of which =
mechanism to degenerate to.  Is it TLS-PSK?  eDPP++?  TLS =
with naked public keys++?  And again, this is the on-prem =
case.  For cloud, we are well along.

[Joe] We are currently =
in a holding pattern with EAP-TLS.  It does not seem right to delay =
it for functionality that we are not sure we have a use case for.  =
If a use case develops then we can publish an update to EAP-TLS =
1.3.  Do we have a use case for EAP-TLS-PSK that is blocked in the =
current situation?


I would suggest that we do have a well-identified use =
case, although it has some issues, and that is IoT onboarding for =
on-prem equipment, as Owen described.  I do not know if we will end =
up executing on that use case, but it is a use case.  On the whole, =
the argument has to go the other way: why should we cripple a particular =
TLS method without strong justification?  The more we specialize =
the longer it takes to deliver new services, and the harder they are to =
support.

A fair argument, if it can =
be made, and I am not convinced it has been fully expressed, is the idea =
that there is no context by which one can separate fast restart and =
initial authentication.  This is Alan=E2=80=99s concern. =
 I=E2=80=99m not saying it=E2=80=99s without merit, but what I =
cannot yet see is whether it is an implementation or a protocol =
matter.

Eliot





Eliot





=

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To: Eliot Lear 
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Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:02 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
> A fair argument, if it can be made, and I am not convinced it has been =
fully expressed, is the idea that there is no context by which one can =
separate fast restart and initial authentication.  This is Alan=E2=80=99s =
concern.  I=E2=80=99m not saying it=E2=80=99s without merit, but what I =
cannot yet see is whether it is an implementation or a protocol matter.

  I believe it's a protocol matter.  In TLS 1.3, PSK handshakes are the =
same as resumption handshakes.

  It's not clear to me how this issue was addressed when using TLS 1.3 =
with HTTPS.  But I do believe it's an issue there, too.

  As an additional note, I believe it's also important that =
draft-dekok-emu-tls-eap-types be published at the same time as the =
EAP-TLS document.  The only unknown there is FAST and TEAP.  I'm happy =
to remove them from the document.

  But at this point it's not even a WG document.  There's not even =
consensus that the document necessary, which surprises me rather a lot.  =
Because password-based EAP methods are *much* more wide-spread than =
EAP-TLS.

  If the IETF publishes EAP-TLS without simultaneously rev'ing TTLS and =
PEAP, it will not only look bad, it will *be* bad.  And the industry =
press will (rightfully) lambast the standards process.

  Alan DeKok.


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From: Jorge Vergara 
To: Alan DeKok 
CC: Eliot Lear , "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" , John Mattsson , Michael Richardson , EMU WG 
Thread-Topic: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:11:06 +0000
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Joseph Salowey 
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:39:39 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Jorge Vergara 
Cc: Alan DeKok ,  "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" ,  John Mattsson ,  Michael Richardson , EMU WG 
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Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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Hi Jorge,

Thanks for joining the conversation.

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 6:11 PM Jorge Vergara  wrote:

> Hello - I am the primary maintainer of Microsoft's EAP implementation. I
> am sorry for joining late to this conversation, but hope our input is
> welcome.
>
> On the topic of draft-dekok-emu-tls-eap-types:
>
> I agree that it is necessary to standardize other TLS based EAP methods a=
t
> the same time as EAP-TLS. The alternatives if this doesn't happen were
> discussed here previously at
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/emu/J9Afcza1gOBQ_jww8E0yxSKPYeo -
> namely, either implementations will forge ahead with non-standard updates
> anyways, or they will be forced to wait to update EAP-TLS until the other
> methods are updated.
>
> We are taking the second approach - we do not plan to update our EAP-TLS
> implementation until it is clear what the updates to other EAP methods wi=
ll
> look like. We do not want to see non-standard vendor implementations to
> become difficult to implement de-facto standards. We would also like to s=
ee
> TEAP covered in this update.
>
> A brief review on the material contained in the
> draft-dekok-emu-tls-eap-types:
>
> I believe the 0x00 "Commitment message" not to send anymore TLS handshake
> data should be mentioned in this document, since it was established durin=
g
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/emu/0MeocWZQLCv1pST5_2jW_ABlpMo
> that even tunnel based methods will need this.
>
> The key derivation proposed for TEAP/FAST uses the definition from FAST,
> which is not identical to the TEAP derivation. Namely, FAST used MSK[j] i=
n
> the derivation, but TEAP uses IMSK[j], which may be equivalent in some
> cases, but may not in others where the inner method exports an EMSK. I
> understand there may be a TEAP errata related to this and I may not be
> fully up to date on the errata discussion, so perhaps this is already tak=
en
> into consideration.
>
>
[Joe] I know that Alan has been asking for help with this draft especially
with TEAP and EAP-FAST.  I hope that you and others can work with him to
get the draft in a shape that we can progress through the working group.  I
agree that this is an important thing to do.

The EAP-TLS 1.3 draft is fairly far along and I do not think we have
consensus to add TEAP into the document at this point, but I think we can
make faster progress on the TLS types document if we have people interested
in working on it.


> Jorge Vergara
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Emu  On Behalf Of Alan DeKok
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 4:12 AM
> To: Eliot Lear 
> Cc: draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org; John Mattsson  40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Michael Richardson ;
> EMU WG 
> Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
>
> On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:02 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
> > A fair argument, if it can be made, and I am not convinced it has been
> fully expressed, is the idea that there is no context by which one can
> separate fast restart and initial authentication.  This is Alan=E2=80=99s=
 concern.
> I=E2=80=99m not saying it=E2=80=99s without merit, but what I cannot yet =
see is whether it
> is an implementation or a protocol matter.
>
>   I believe it's a protocol matter.  In TLS 1.3, PSK handshakes are the
> same as resumption handshakes.
>
>   It's not clear to me how this issue was addressed when using TLS 1.3
> with HTTPS.  But I do believe it's an issue there, too.
>
>   As an additional note, I believe it's also important that
> draft-dekok-emu-tls-eap-types be published at the same time as the EAP-TL=
S
> document.  The only unknown there is FAST and TEAP.  I'm happy to remove
> them from the document.
>
>   But at this point it's not even a WG document.  There's not even
> consensus that the document necessary, which surprises me rather a lot.
> Because password-based EAP methods are *much* more wide-spread than EAP-T=
LS.
>
>   If the IETF publishes EAP-TLS without simultaneously rev'ing TTLS and
> PEAP, it will not only look bad, it will *be* bad.  And the industry pres=
s
> will (rightfully) lambast the standards process.
>
>   Alan DeKok.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emu mailing list
> Emu@ietf.org
>
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i=
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
>

--000000000000a1b9b205962d70c7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Jorge,

Thanks for j=
oining the conversation.=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 6:11 PM J=
orge Vergara <jovergar=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hello - I am the primary=
 maintainer of Microsoft's EAP implementation. I am sorry for joining l=
ate to this conversation, but hope our input is welcome.



On the topic of draft-dekok-emu-tls-eap-types:



I agree that it is necessary to standardize other TLS based EAP methods at =
the same time as EAP-TLS. The alternatives if this doesn't happen were =
discussed here previously at ht=
tps://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/emu/J9Afcza1gOBQ_jww8E0yxSKPYeo - n=
amely, either implementations will forge ahead with non-standard updates an=
yways, or they will be forced to wait to update EAP-TLS until the other met=
hods are updated.



We are taking the second approach - we do not plan to update our EAP-TLS im=
plementation until it is clear what the updates to other EAP methods will l=
ook like. We do not want to see non-standard vendor implementations to beco=
me difficult to implement de-facto standards. We would also like to see TEA=
P covered in this update.



A brief review on the material contained in the draft-dekok-emu-tls-eap-typ=
es:



I believe the 0x00 "Commitment message" not to send anymore TLS h=
andshake data should be mentioned in this document, since it was establishe=
d during https://mailarchive.ie=
tf.org/arch/msg/emu/0MeocWZQLCv1pST5_2jW_ABlpMo that even tunnel based =
methods will need this.



The key derivation proposed for TEAP/FAST uses the definition from FAST, wh=
ich is not identical to the TEAP derivation. Namely, FAST used MSK[j] in th=
e derivation, but TEAP uses IMSK[j], which may be equivalent in some cases,=
 but may not in others where the inner method exports an EMSK. I understand=
 there may be a TEAP errata related to this and I may not be fully up to da=
te on the errata discussion, so perhaps this is already taken into consider=
ation.



[Joe] I know that Alan has been asking=
=C2=A0for help with this draft especially with TEAP and EAP-FAST.=C2=A0 I h=
ope that you and others can work with him to get the draft in a shape that =
we can progress through the working group.=C2=A0 I agree that this is an im=
portant thing to do.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

The EAP-TLS 1.3 =
draft is fairly far along and I do not think we have consensus to add TEAP =
into the document at this point, but I think we can make faster progress on=
 the TLS types document if we have people interested in working on it.=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Jorge Vergara



-----Original Message-----

From: Emu <emu=
-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alan DeKok

Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 4:12 AM

To: Eliot Lear <lear=
@cisco.com>

Cc: =
draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org; John Mattsson <john.mattsson=3D40ericsson=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; EMU WG <emu@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13



On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:02 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

> A fair argument, if it can be made, and I am not convinced it has been=
 fully expressed, is the idea that there is no context by which one can sep=
arate fast restart and initial authentication.=C2=A0 This is Alan=E2=80=99s=
 concern.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m not saying it=E2=80=99s without merit, but what=
 I cannot yet see is whether it is an implementation or a protocol matter.<=
br>


=C2=A0 I believe it's a protocol matter.=C2=A0 In TLS 1.3, PSK handshak=
es are the same as resumption handshakes.



=C2=A0 It's not clear to me how this issue was addressed when using TLS=
 1.3 with HTTPS.=C2=A0 But I do believe it's an issue there, too.



=C2=A0 As an additional note, I believe it's also important that draft-=
dekok-emu-tls-eap-types be published at the same time as the EAP-TLS docume=
nt.=C2=A0 The only unknown there is FAST and TEAP.=C2=A0 I'm happy to r=
emove them from the document.



=C2=A0 But at this point it's not even a WG document.=C2=A0 There's=
 not even consensus that the document necessary, which surprises me rather =
a lot.=C2=A0 Because password-based EAP methods are *much* more wide-spread=
 than EAP-TLS.



=C2=A0 If the IETF publishes EAP-TLS without simultaneously rev'ing TTL=
S and PEAP, it will not only look bad, it will *be* bad.=C2=A0 And the indu=
stry press will (rightfully) lambast the standards process.



=C2=A0 Alan DeKok.



_______________________________________________

Emu mailing list

Emu@ietf.org

https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%=
3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Femu&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cjo=
vergar%40microsoft.com%7C68e3a65a1c3441c857cb08d75d2a038b%7C72f988bf86f141a=
f91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637080308161040037&amp;sdata=3DzrPr0rRh1bkV=
8rrF23SaAJYz6aFfuO3lTX9e6U1fOXw%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

_______________________________________________

Emu mailing list

Emu@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu




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From: Joseph Salowey 
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:44:48 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Alan DeKok 
Cc: Eliot Lear ,  "draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13@ietf.org" ,  John Mattsson ,  Michael Richardson , EMU WG 
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Subject: Re: [Emu] POST WGLC Comments draft-ietf-emu-eap-tls13
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On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 4:12 AM Alan DeKok 
wrote:

> On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:02 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
> > A fair argument, if it can be made, and I am not convinced it has been
> fully expressed, is the idea that there is no context by which one can
> separate fast restart and initial authentication.  This is Alan=E2=80=99s=
 concern.
> I=E2=80=99m not saying it=E2=80=99s without merit, but what I cannot yet =
see is whether it
> is an implementation or a protocol matter.
>
>   I believe it's a protocol matter.  In TLS 1.3, PSK handshakes are the
> same as resumption handshakes.
>
>   It's not clear to me how this issue was addressed when using TLS 1.3
> with HTTPS.  But I do believe it's an issue there, too.
>
>
[Joe] Can you elaborate on what the issue is?  I think most TLS deployments
operate in either a certificate based mode or a PSK mode, but not both at
the same time.


>   As an additional note, I believe it's also important that
> draft-dekok-emu-tls-eap-types be published at the same time as the EAP-TL=
S
> document.  The only unknown there is FAST and TEAP.  I'm happy to remove
> them from the document.
>
>   But at this point it's not even a WG document.  There's not even
> consensus that the document necessary, which surprises me rather a lot.
> Because password-based EAP methods are *much* more wide-spread than EAP-T=
LS.
>
>   If the IETF publishes EAP-TLS without simultaneously rev'ing TTLS and
> PEAP, it will not only look bad, it will *be* bad.  And the industry pres=
s
> will (rightfully) lambast the standards process.
>
>
[Joe] We need people to contribute to the document.  If we are going to
publish a document through the working group it needs to at least to
include TEAP.   I know there are folks on this list who are implementing.
They need to step up and help with this document and the TEAP errata.


>   Alan DeKok.
>
>

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=

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 4:12 AM Alan =
DeKok <aland@deployingradiu=
s.com> wrote:
On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:02 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

> A fair argument, if it can be made, and I am not convinced it has been=
 fully expressed, is the idea that there is no context by which one can sep=
arate fast restart and initial authentication.=C2=A0 This is Alan=E2=80=99s=
 concern.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m not saying it=E2=80=99s without merit, but what=
 I cannot yet see is whether it is an implementation or a protocol matter.<=
br>


=C2=A0 I believe it's a protocol matter.=C2=A0 In TLS 1.3, PSK handshak=
es are the same as resumption handshakes.



=C2=A0 It's not clear to me how this issue was addressed when using TLS=
 1.3 with HTTPS.=C2=A0 But I do believe it's an issue there, too.



[Joe] Can you elaborate on what the is=
sue is?=C2=A0 I think most TLS deployments operate in either a certificate =
based mode or a PSK mode, but not both at the same time.=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 As an additional note, I believe it's also important that draft-=
dekok-emu-tls-eap-types be published at the same time as the EAP-TLS docume=
nt.=C2=A0 The only unknown there is FAST and TEAP.=C2=A0 I'm happy to r=
emove them from the document.



=C2=A0 But at this point it's not even a WG document.=C2=A0 There's=
 not even consensus that the document necessary, which surprises me rather =
a lot.=C2=A0 Because password-based EAP methods are *much* more wide-spread=
 than EAP-TLS.



=C2=A0 If the IETF publishes EAP-TLS without simultaneously rev'ing TTL=
S and PEAP, it will not only look bad, it will *be* bad.=C2=A0 And the indu=
stry press will (rightfully) lambast the standards process.



[Joe] We need people to contribute to =
the document.=C2=A0 If we are going to publish a document through the worki=
ng group it needs to at least to include TEAP.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I know there are=
 folks on this list who are implementing.=C2=A0 They need to step up and he=
lp with this document and the TEAP=C2=A0errata.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Alan DeKok.






--0000000000000ccc1805962d8306--


From nobody Thu Oct 31 07:24:28 2019
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From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker 
To: "The IESG" 
Cc: emu-chairs@ietf.org, emu@ietf.org
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Subject: [Emu] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on charter-ietf-emu-05-02: (with COMMENT)
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Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-emu-05-02: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-emu/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Can we consider just saying "forward secrecy" rather than "perfect forward
secrecy"?  The "perfect" nature comes with many caveats in general...

What's the relationship between "identifiers for fast re-authentication" and
"creation of long-term credentials for the peer based on initial limited-use credentials"?

There's a lot of stuff set to happen in Nov 2019; is that all staged and
ready to go?



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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:59:18 -0700
From: Benjamin Kaduk 
To: Mohit Sethi M 
Cc: The IESG , "emu-chairs@ietf.org" , "emu@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Emu] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on charter-ietf-emu-05-02: (with COMMENT)
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On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 04:25:57PM +0000, Mohit Sethi M wrote:
>    Hi Ben,
> 
>    Thanks for the customary careful review. Answers in-line:
> 
>    On 10/31/19 4:24 PM, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote:
> 
>  Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
>  charter-ietf-emu-05-02: No Objection
> 
>  When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>  email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>  introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> 
>  The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-emu/
> 
> 
> 
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  COMMENT:
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>  Can we consider just saying "forward secrecy" rather than "perfect forward
>  secrecy"?  The "perfect" nature comes with many caveats in general...
> 
>    Makes sense!
> 
> 
>  What's the relationship between "identifiers for fast re-authentication" and
>  "creation of long-term credentials for the peer based on initial limited-use credentials"?
> 
>    Good question:
> 
>    Session-Id is a particular type of identifier that must be exported by EAP
>    methods according to RFC5247 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5247). As
>    implicit from the name, it identifies a particular EAP authentication
>    session. EAP methods should export this identifier during usual full
>    authentication as well as abbreviated fast-reauthentication. Some  EAP
>    methods (EAP-SIM, EAP-AKA, EAP-PEAP and EAP-AKA') lacked this information.
>    There is a draft fixing this (draft-ietf-emu-eap-session-id-00). It is
>    only dealing with a narrow bug that was discovered during implementation.
> 
>    Creation of long-term credentials based on initial limited-use credentials
>    is not about session identifiers. It tries is trying to address the case
>    where the initial credentials are time or domain limited (such as device
>    certificates from manufacturer) and need to be updated with operational
>    long-term credentials (such as certificates from the local network
>    operator). Both these credentials can be used for EAP authentication
>    (albeit with different servers) and will result in different Session-Ids.

That makes sense; thanks for setting it out for me.

> 
>  There's a lot of stuff set to happen in Nov 2019; is that all staged and
>  ready to go?
> 
>    Yes!

Excellent!

-Ben