From mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com Fri Feb 1 05:52:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B90B28E050 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:52:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LiuBhYdum93i for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD6B28D081 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:27:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@ietf.org To: fecframe-proto-archive@optimus.ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 05:04:30 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: mailman@core3.amsl.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com Errors-To: mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing list memberships. 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Thanks! http://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/fecframe-proto/fecframe-proto-archive%40optimus.ietf.org From mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com Fri Feb 1 05:52:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD52528CEAF for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:52:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AqTX7nsoooQ4 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C53293991 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2008 05:27:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@ietf.org To: fecframe-proto-archive@optimus.ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes Message-ID: Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 05:04:30 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: mailman@core3.amsl.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com Errors-To: mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list. You can visit the URLs to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. In addition to the URL interfaces, you can also use email to make such changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, mailman-request@ietf.org) containing just the word 'help' in the message body, and an email message will be sent to you with instructions. If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to mailman-owner@ietf.org. Thanks! http://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/fecframe-proto/fecframe-proto-archive%40optimus.ietf.org From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 3 03:42:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 527803A67EE; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 03:42:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.706 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.706 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_12=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-af1ilNfKEH; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 03:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41F93A6B6D; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 03:42:03 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D275E3A6B6D for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 03:42:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mRN-G6cXV0Ua for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 03:41:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC37A3A67EE for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 03:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Feb 2008 03:43:19 -0800 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m13BhJbB000755 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 03:43:19 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m13BhJ8d018011 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 11:43:19 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.169]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 3 Feb 2008 03:43:19 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C86659.F8A985D4" Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 03:41:50 -0800 Message-ID: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D5406755D80@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New SDP draft thread-index: AchmWcPQ/2cPVaSvQi2SWUyNdxQl7Q== From: "Ali Begen (abegen)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2008 11:43:19.0608 (UTC) FILETIME=[F905AB80:01C86659] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=abegen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C86659.F8A985D4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, I made the changes we discussed last week in the SDP draft. I am attaching the txt and xml files.=20 I would like to hear your feedback before I submit it as a WG document. Could you at least go over the new sections and SDP examples? The changes include: - Divided the FEC-scheme-specific-information (FSSI) container into two. Now, we have one container (Sender-side FSSI) which includes the information required only by the sender. The rest of the FSSI info goes to the other container (Receiver-side FSSI). The FEC scheme decides what goes to where. - Media stream grouping: I updated the text based on our last discussion. The discussion is still going on in the MMUSIC and FECFRAME WGs. We need to come up with something that allows us to associate the repair and source flows in a flexible manner. RFC 3388 is severely limiting us. I also added the cases where we would want to use multiple framework instances in Section 4.2.=20 - Repair flow descriptors: I updated this section (4.5) as we now have two containers for FSSI. I also changed the "Scheme ID" to "Encoding ID" to be consistent with the framework draft. - Repair Window: Section 4.6 is re-written. Now, we support both ms and us.=20 - Section 5 is re-written. I added three SDP examples. Please go over the examples and let me know if something is missing or incorrect. 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ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEV4cGlyZXMgQXVndXN0IDQsIDIwMDggICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgW1Bh Z2UgMjBdDQoMDQo= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C86659.F8A985D4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto ------_=_NextPart_001_01C86659.F8A985D4-- From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 5 15:52:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCE83A67A6; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 15:52:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BM+AL-pjVKsp; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 15:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17173A6780; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 15:52:13 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1645F3A67A6 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 15:52:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yWVGbaroUTB2 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 15:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.247]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF243A6780 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 15:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d11so706291and.122 for ; Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:53:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.205.9 with SMTP id c9mr2192269ang.23.1202255623088; Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:53:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.125.10 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 15:53:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38c19b540802051553sd9dd6f5v9eb74e79dfa40e31@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 15:53:43 -0800 From: "Greg Shepherd" To: "Ali Begen (abegen)" In-Reply-To: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540675610C@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D5406755D80@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> <241bc2150802041404o7ec999a9wb5e0f8336ca0b99d@mail.gmail.com> <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540675610C@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> Cc: fecframe-proto@ietf.org Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Did we ever come to conclusion with mmusic wrt grouping? The conversation seemed to spin off track discussing uses/application of groups but away from our original question. Ali, can you summarize and restate to the mmusic list? ..or did I miss something? Thanks, Greg On Feb 4, 2008 2:26 PM, Ali Begen (abegen) wrote: > > > Hi Ulas. > > Thanks for the comments. > > 1- We define the priority field in the repair flow descriptor. However, I > did not want to use it in the examples (not yet) since assigning priority > means we can use multiple repair flows in an additive manner. And as you > know, that issue is still at hand. I believe at least for now we should not > give examples involving additivity and prioritization. > > However, different repair sizes are already used in the last example. > > 2- Good question. I am not sure whether that should be a part of the FSSI > (receiver side) or we should specify a new separate element, which is part > of the configuration information (hence, common to all FEC schemes)? \ > > I am inclined towards including in the RS-FSSI? But, either is fine with me. > We decided to make it optional. So, the configuration information may ignore > or skip it. > > Any comments? > > -acbegen > > > ________________________________ > From: Ulas Kozat [mailto:ulas.kozat@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:05 PM > To: Ali Begen (abegen) > Cc: fecframe-proto@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft > > > > Ali, > > The document looks okay with the notes, etc. I have a few comments: > 1. Maybe we can add one more example for single source flow and 2 repair > flows with priority. Also, in such a scenario, should we be able to define 2 > different time windows for each repair flow? > 2. Are we going to specify a feedback description other than the FEC-scheme > specific one as part of SDP elements? E.g., is the sender capable of > receiving any FEC performance feedback or whether the receiver capable of > sending any feedback? > > Ulas > > > On Feb 3, 2008 3:41 AM, Ali Begen (abegen) wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I made the changes we discussed last week in the SDP draft. I am > > attaching the txt and xml files. > > > > I would like to hear your feedback before I submit it as a WG document. > > Could you at least go over the new sections and SDP examples? > > > > The changes include: > > - Divided the FEC-scheme-specific-information (FSSI) container into two. > > Now, we have one container (Sender-side FSSI) which includes the > > information required only by the sender. The rest of the FSSI info goes > > to the other container (Receiver-side FSSI). The FEC scheme decides what > > goes to where. > > > > - Media stream grouping: I updated the text based on our last > > discussion. The discussion is still going on in the MMUSIC and FECFRAME > > WGs. We need to come up with something that allows us to associate the > > repair and source flows in a flexible manner. RFC 3388 is severely > > limiting us. > > > > I also added the cases where we would want to use multiple framework > > instances in Section 4.2. > > > > - Repair flow descriptors: I updated this section (4.5) as we now have > > two containers for FSSI. I also changed the "Scheme ID" to "Encoding ID" > > to be consistent with the framework draft. > > > > - Repair Window: Section 4.6 is re-written. Now, we support both ms and > > us. > > > > - Section 5 is re-written. I added three SDP examples. Please go over > > the examples and let me know if something is missing or incorrect. > > > > Thanks, > > -acbegen > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list > > FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org > > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list > FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto > > _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 5 16:13:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F4C3A6891; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:13:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.564 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.564 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0oc-yHViY72p; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:13:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5FD3A67ED; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:13:43 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA01B3A6880 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:13:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u5XsZT23VDoD for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE74A3A67ED for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:13:40 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.25,309,1199692800"; d="scan'208";a="11633402" Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Feb 2008 16:15:13 -0800 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m160FD14022796; Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:15:13 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m160EnID027447; Wed, 6 Feb 2008 00:15:13 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.169]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:14:52 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:14:50 -0800 Message-ID: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D54067566E0@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <38c19b540802051553sd9dd6f5v9eb74e79dfa40e31@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft thread-index: AchoUlzZWch1dsn4RnmVJbVsXm+ZjwAAlf7g References: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D5406755D80@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> <241bc2150802041404o7ec999a9wb5e0f8336ca0b99d@mail.gmail.com> <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540675610C@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> <38c19b540802051553sd9dd6f5v9eb74e79dfa40e31@mail.gmail.com> From: "Ali Begen (abegen)" To: "Greg Shepherd" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Feb 2008 00:14:52.0179 (UTC) FILETIME=[4B1D7630:01C86855] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=abegen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Cc: fecframe-proto@ietf.org Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Hi Greg, Nope, nobody has commented on the original question. The discussion was merely about whether we should support inter-dependent FEC layers. In the meeting, we decided not to support such FEC layers, but only independent (maybe additive) FEC layers. On the other hand, the main issue is still there. Flexible FEC grouping. No comments from the chairs, either. I will send another email to mmusic. -acbegen > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Shepherd [mailto:gjshep@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 3:54 PM > To: Ali Begen (abegen) > Cc: Ulas Kozat; fecframe-proto@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft > > Did we ever come to conclusion with mmusic wrt grouping? The > conversation seemed to spin off track discussing > uses/application of groups but away from our original question. > > Ali, can you summarize and restate to the mmusic list? ..or > did I miss something? > > Thanks, > Greg > > On Feb 4, 2008 2:26 PM, Ali Begen (abegen) wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ulas. > > > > Thanks for the comments. > > > > 1- We define the priority field in the repair flow descriptor. > > However, I did not want to use it in the examples (not yet) since > > assigning priority means we can use multiple repair flows in an > > additive manner. And as you know, that issue is still at hand. I > > believe at least for now we should not give examples > involving additivity and prioritization. > > > > However, different repair sizes are already used in the > last example. > > > > 2- Good question. I am not sure whether that should be a > part of the > > FSSI (receiver side) or we should specify a new separate element, > > which is part of the configuration information (hence, > common to all > > FEC schemes)? \ > > > > I am inclined towards including in the RS-FSSI? But, either > is fine with me. > > We decided to make it optional. So, the configuration > information may > > ignore or skip it. > > > > Any comments? > > > > -acbegen > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ulas Kozat [mailto:ulas.kozat@gmail.com] > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:05 PM > > To: Ali Begen (abegen) > > Cc: fecframe-proto@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft > > > > > > > > Ali, > > > > The document looks okay with the notes, etc. I have a few comments: > > 1. Maybe we can add one more example for single source flow and 2 > > repair flows with priority. Also, in such a scenario, should we be > > able to define 2 different time windows for each repair flow? > > 2. Are we going to specify a feedback description other than the > > FEC-scheme specific one as part of SDP elements? E.g., is > the sender > > capable of receiving any FEC performance feedback or whether the > > receiver capable of sending any feedback? > > > > Ulas > > > > > > On Feb 3, 2008 3:41 AM, Ali Begen (abegen) wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I made the changes we discussed last week in the SDP draft. I am > > > attaching the txt and xml files. > > > > > > I would like to hear your feedback before I submit it as > a WG document. > > > Could you at least go over the new sections and SDP examples? > > > > > > The changes include: > > > - Divided the FEC-scheme-specific-information (FSSI) > container into two. > > > Now, we have one container (Sender-side FSSI) which includes the > > > information required only by the sender. The rest of the > FSSI info > > > goes to the other container (Receiver-side FSSI). The FEC scheme > > > decides what goes to where. > > > > > > - Media stream grouping: I updated the text based on our last > > > discussion. The discussion is still going on in the MMUSIC and > > > FECFRAME WGs. We need to come up with something that allows us to > > > associate the repair and source flows in a flexible > manner. RFC 3388 > > > is severely limiting us. > > > > > > I also added the cases where we would want to use > multiple framework > > > instances in Section 4.2. > > > > > > - Repair flow descriptors: I updated this section (4.5) as we now > > > have two containers for FSSI. I also changed the "Scheme > ID" to "Encoding ID" > > > to be consistent with the framework draft. > > > > > > - Repair Window: Section 4.6 is re-written. Now, we > support both ms > > > and us. > > > > > > - Section 5 is re-written. I added three SDP examples. Please go > > > over the examples and let me know if something is missing > or incorrect. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > -acbegen > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list > > > FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org > > > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list > > FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org > > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto > > > > > _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 12 13:02:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4D328C5C8; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:02:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.668, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KMvZQcfVwlsM; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB07C28C4E9; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:02:32 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D30628C524 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:02:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BZRR9JtL5cHU for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11BD728C4BC for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2008 13:03:54 -0800 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1CL3smv023682 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:03:54 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1CL3nJe014492 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:03:54 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.169]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:03:49 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C86DBA.C3BAF19F" Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:03:46 -0800 Message-ID: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540683CF88@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: A new informational draft on fec grouping issues thread-index: Achturhr2vPK5a3xQa6iuOp60OoAJg== From: "Ali Begen (abegen)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2008 21:03:49.0914 (UTC) FILETIME=[C3F6DFA0:01C86DBA] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=abegen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C86DBA.C3BAF19F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, So far, we could not ignite a discussion in the MMUSIC WG regarding the FEC grouping issues. So, it was suggested that I would write an informational draft, describe the problems and propose some alternative solutions. So, that is what I did. I am attaching the draft for your review. Note that this has to be submitted by Monday. So any comments within this week (before Friday) would be appreciated. It is important that we convey our issues appropriately. So, please take a few minutes to review the document. It is very short, and should not take much time. 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YWdlIDldDQoMDQo= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C86DBA.C3BAF19F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto ------_=_NextPart_001_01C86DBA.C3BAF19F-- From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 12 13:16:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAAAA28C5D0; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:16:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.233, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7efqnDnAuXM3; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F381628C216; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:16:12 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6815B28C216 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:16:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uioH8lsetynl for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:16:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F8B628C469 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:16:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2008 16:17:32 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1CLHV3e032501 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:17:32 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1CLHUaH006039 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:17:31 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.53]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:17:18 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:16:36 -0500 Message-ID: <15B86BC7352F864BB53A47B540C089B604E6BCEA@xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540683CF88@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues Thread-Index: Achturhr2vPK5a3xQa6iuOp60OoAJgAAX5Ew From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: "Ali Begen (abegen)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2008 21:17:18.0436 (UTC) FILETIME=[A5E18A40:01C86DBC] Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=rajiva@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Hi Ali, We (the protocol team) should all collaborate to jointly author the new draft, if/when it needs to be produced. Also, why should it be the informational draft? Cheers, Rajiv > -----Original Message----- > From: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ali > Begen (abegen) > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:04 PM > To: fecframe-proto@ietf.org > Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec > grouping issues > > Hi everyone, > > So far, we could not ignite a discussion in the MMUSIC WG > regarding the > FEC grouping issues. So, it was suggested that I would write an > informational draft, describe the problems and propose some > alternative > solutions. So, that is what I did. > > I am attaching the draft for your review. Note that this has to be > submitted by Monday. So any comments within this week (before Friday) > would be appreciated. It is important that we convey our issues > appropriately. So, please take a few minutes to review the > document. It > is very short, and should not take much time. > > Thanks, > -acbegen > _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 12 13:27:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A875B28C4DD; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:27:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.988 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.988 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.551, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qnfeI8+eXuYG; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D017028C4D2; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:27:56 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC303A6BE5 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:27:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pNa5yOuneVAu for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AD3E28C46D for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2008 13:29:18 -0800 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1CLTI6a003343 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:29:18 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1CLTHJQ006853 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:29:18 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.169]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:29:16 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:28:16 -0800 Message-ID: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540683CFC5@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <15B86BC7352F864BB53A47B540C089B604E6BCEA@xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues thread-index: Achturhr2vPK5a3xQa6iuOp60OoAJgAAX5EwAABMybA= References: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540683CF88@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> <15B86BC7352F864BB53A47B540C089B604E6BCEA@xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com> From: "Ali Begen (abegen)" To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2008 21:29:16.0603 (UTC) FILETIME=[51F120B0:01C86DBE] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=abegen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org This is just for describing the problem and showing some alternative solutions. It does not have to become anything. That's why, it is intended to be informational. If MMUSIC agrees to adopt one of the solutions described here or comes up with a new one, then of course we should work on that draft together, which should be in the cateogry of "proposed standard." However, note that MMUSIC WG should approve what needs to be done here. And, that's why we need to tell them about our problems. -acbegen > -----Original Message----- > From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva) > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:17 PM > To: Ali Begen (abegen); fecframe-proto@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on > fec grouping issues > > Hi Ali, > > We (the protocol team) should all collaborate to jointly > author the new draft, if/when it needs to be produced. > > Also, why should it be the informational draft? > > Cheers, > Rajiv > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org > > [mailto:fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ali Begen > > (abegen) > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:04 PM > > To: fecframe-proto@ietf.org > > Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping > > issues > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > So far, we could not ignite a discussion in the MMUSIC WG regarding > > the FEC grouping issues. So, it was suggested that I would write an > > informational draft, describe the problems and propose some > > alternative solutions. So, that is what I did. > > > > I am attaching the draft for your review. Note that this has to be > > submitted by Monday. So any comments within this week > (before Friday) > > would be appreciated. It is important that we convey our issues > > appropriately. So, please take a few minutes to review the > document. > > It is very short, and should not take much time. > > > > Thanks, > > -acbegen > > > _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 13 05:35:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B1E828C7AC; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:35:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.616 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.616 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.179, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SBm8ECwri6Kw; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87A728C7A7; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:35:37 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D5928C7B9 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:35:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wReUMfZTevTz for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6711F28C7AC for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2008 08:36:56 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1DDauAQ010631 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:36:56 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1DDaiQb005659 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:36:56 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.53]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:36:51 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:36:10 -0500 Message-ID: <15B86BC7352F864BB53A47B540C089B604ECA404@xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540683CFC5@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues Thread-Index: Achturhr2vPK5a3xQa6iuOp60OoAJgAAX5EwAABMybAAIffIEA== From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: "Ali Begen (abegen)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Feb 2008 13:36:51.0707 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D7AFCB0:01C86E45] Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=rajiva@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Hi Ali, That's fine. I just got to see the draft. Looks fine to me. Cheers, Rajiv > -----Original Message----- > From: Ali Begen (abegen) > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:28 PM > To: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' > Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on > fec grouping issues > > This is just for describing the problem and showing some > alternative solutions. It does not have to become anything. > That's why, it is intended to be informational. > > If MMUSIC agrees to adopt one of the solutions described here > or comes up with a new one, then of course we should work on > that draft together, which should be in the cateogry of > "proposed standard." > > However, note that MMUSIC WG should approve what needs to be > done here. And, that's why we need to tell them about our problems. > > -acbegen > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva) > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:17 PM > > To: Ali Begen (abegen); fecframe-proto@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on > > fec grouping issues > > > > Hi Ali, > > > > We (the protocol team) should all collaborate to jointly > > author the new draft, if/when it needs to be produced. > > > > Also, why should it be the informational draft? > > > > Cheers, > > Rajiv > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org > > > [mailto:fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ali Begen > > > (abegen) > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:04 PM > > > To: fecframe-proto@ietf.org > > > Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on > fec grouping > > > issues > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > So far, we could not ignite a discussion in the MMUSIC WG > regarding > > > the FEC grouping issues. So, it was suggested that I > would write an > > > informational draft, describe the problems and propose some > > > alternative solutions. So, that is what I did. > > > > > > I am attaching the draft for your review. Note that this > has to be > > > submitted by Monday. So any comments within this week > > (before Friday) > > > would be appreciated. It is important that we convey our issues > > > appropriately. So, please take a few minutes to review the > > document. > > > It is very short, and should not take much time. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > -acbegen > > > > > > _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 13 07:45:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A693A6FA0; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:45:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.309, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_12=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P8Ty61j2Wy9F; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:45:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C2328C86E; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:44:58 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BEF3A6F97 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:44:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28Mla2gBNqp0 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64EF928C882 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:44:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2008 07:45:24 -0800 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1DFjORH018825 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:45:24 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1DFjOPp003186 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:45:24 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.169]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:45:24 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C86E57.723788CA" Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:45:20 -0800 Message-ID: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540683D31A@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <15B86BC7352F864BB53A47B540C089B604ECA404@xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues thread-index: Achturhr2vPK5a3xQa6iuOp60OoAJgAAX5EwAABMybAAIffIEAAEU0gA References: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540683CFC5@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> <15B86BC7352F864BB53A47B540C089B604ECA404@xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com> From: "Ali Begen (abegen)" To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Feb 2008 15:45:24.0159 (UTC) FILETIME=[7275C4F0:01C86E57] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=abegen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C86E57.723788CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rajiv, Thanks for reading the draft. For other who have not started reading, pls see the updated version (attached). I asked someone without any FEC background to comment on the draft (seems that we will have the same issue in MMUSIC). So, I expanded the intro part and make clarifications about what we meant with prioritization, additivity, etc. Thanks again, -acbegen > -----Original Message----- > From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva)=20 > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 5:36 AM > To: Ali Begen (abegen); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' > Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on=20 > fec grouping issues >=20 > Hi Ali, >=20 > That's fine.=20 > I just got to see the draft. Looks fine to me. >=20 > Cheers, > Rajiv > =20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ali Begen (abegen) > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:28 PM > > To: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' > > Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec=20 > > grouping issues > >=20 > > This is just for describing the problem and showing some=20 > alternative=20 > > solutions. It does not have to become anything. > > That's why, it is intended to be informational. > >=20 > > If MMUSIC agrees to adopt one of the solutions described=20 > here or comes=20 > > up with a new one, then of course we should work on that draft=20 > > together, which should be in the cateogry of "proposed standard." > >=20 > > However, note that MMUSIC WG should approve what needs to be done=20 > > here. And, that's why we need to tell them about our problems. > >=20 > > -acbegen > >=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva) > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:17 PM > > > To: Ali Begen (abegen); fecframe-proto@ietf.org > > > Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec=20 > > > grouping issues > > >=20 > > > Hi Ali, > > >=20 > > > We (the protocol team) should all collaborate to jointly=20 > author the=20 > > > new draft, if/when it needs to be produced. > > >=20 > > > Also, why should it be the informational draft?=20 > > >=20 > > > Cheers, > > > Rajiv > > >=20 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org=20 > > > > [mailto:fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ali Begen > > > > (abegen) > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:04 PM > > > > To: fecframe-proto@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on > > fec grouping > > > > issues > > > >=20 > > > > Hi everyone, > > > >=20 > > > > So far, we could not ignite a discussion in the MMUSIC WG > > regarding > > > > the FEC grouping issues. So, it was suggested that I > > would write an > > > > informational draft, describe the problems and propose some=20 > > > > alternative solutions. So, that is what I did. > > > >=20 > > > > I am attaching the draft for your review. Note that this > > has to be > > > > submitted by Monday. So any comments within this week > > > (before Friday) > > > > would be appreciated. It is important that we convey our issues=20 > > > > appropriately. So, please take a few minutes to review the > > > document.=20 > > > > It is very short, and should not take much time. > > > >=20 > > > > Thanks, > > > > -acbegen > > > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 >=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C86E57.723788CA Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-begen-mmusic-fec-grouping-issues-00.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: draft-begen-mmusic-fec-grouping-issues-00.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-begen-mmusic-fec-grouping-issues-00.txt" DQoNCg0KTU1VU0lDICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgIEEuIEJlZ2VuDQpJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIENpc2NvIFN5c3RlbXMNCkludGVuZGVkIHN0YXR1czog IEluZm9ybWF0aW9uYWwgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBGZWJydWFyeSAxMiwgMjAwOA0K RXhwaXJlczogIEF1Z3VzdCAxNSwgMjAwOA0KDQoNCiAgICAgICAgICBGRUMgR3JvdXBpbmcgSXNz dWVzIGluIFNlc3Npb24gRGVzY3JpcHRpb24gUHJvdG9jb2wNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIGRyYWZ0 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ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1EE63A6F90; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:07:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E25xJZmU285L; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D843A6F8B; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:07:38 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4BC28C82A for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:07:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ifiAMjfmcRIy for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 943ED3A6F8B for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2008 11:08:55 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1DG8sOo001751 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:08:54 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1DG8nQH004799 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:08:54 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.53]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:08:46 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:08:04 -0500 Message-ID: <15B86BC7352F864BB53A47B540C089B604ECA52F@xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540683D31A@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues Thread-Index: Achturhr2vPK5a3xQa6iuOp60OoAJgAAX5EwAABMybAAIffIEAAEU0gAAAC5CNA= From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: "Ali Begen (abegen)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Feb 2008 16:08:46.0721 (UTC) FILETIME=[B673BF10:01C86E5A] Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=rajiva@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Hi Ali, Two quick comments - Perhaps, we should move the text related to requirements in a separate section from the Introduction section for better readability. Also, 3.2 and 3.3 are new, hence, they are not really "issues" or limitations with existing mechanisms. Perhaps, we could move them into "Requirements" section for completeness and clarify there. Cheers, Rajiv > -----Original Message----- > From: Ali Begen (abegen) > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:45 AM > To: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' > Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on > fec grouping issues > > Hi Rajiv, > > Thanks for reading the draft. For other who have not started > reading, pls see the updated version (attached). > > I asked someone without any FEC background to comment on the > draft (seems that we will have the same issue in MMUSIC). So, > I expanded the intro part and make clarifications about what > we meant with prioritization, additivity, etc. > > Thanks again, > -acbegen > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva) > > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 5:36 AM > > To: Ali Begen (abegen); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' > > Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on > > fec grouping issues > > > > Hi Ali, > > > > That's fine. > > I just got to see the draft. Looks fine to me. > > > > Cheers, > > Rajiv > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Ali Begen (abegen) > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:28 PM > > > To: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' > > > Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec > > > grouping issues > > > > > > This is just for describing the problem and showing some > > alternative > > > solutions. It does not have to become anything. > > > That's why, it is intended to be informational. > > > > > > If MMUSIC agrees to adopt one of the solutions described > > here or comes > > > up with a new one, then of course we should work on that draft > > > together, which should be in the cateogry of "proposed standard." > > > > > > However, note that MMUSIC WG should approve what needs to be done > > > here. And, that's why we need to tell them about our problems. > > > > > > -acbegen > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva) > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:17 PM > > > > To: Ali Begen (abegen); fecframe-proto@ietf.org > > > > Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec > > > > grouping issues > > > > > > > > Hi Ali, > > > > > > > > We (the protocol team) should all collaborate to jointly > > author the > > > > new draft, if/when it needs to be produced. > > > > > > > > Also, why should it be the informational draft? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Rajiv > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org > > > > > [mailto:fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Ali Begen > > > > > (abegen) > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:04 PM > > > > > To: fecframe-proto@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on > > > fec grouping > > > > > issues > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > > > So far, we could not ignite a discussion in the MMUSIC WG > > > regarding > > > > > the FEC grouping issues. So, it was suggested that I > > > would write an > > > > > informational draft, describe the problems and propose some > > > > > alternative solutions. So, that is what I did. > > > > > > > > > > I am attaching the draft for your review. Note that this > > > has to be > > > > > submitted by Monday. So any comments within this week > > > > (before Friday) > > > > > would be appreciated. It is important that we convey > our issues > > > > > appropriately. So, please take a few minutes to review the > > > > document. > > > > > It is very short, and should not take much time. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > -acbegen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 19:06:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EF43A6C0A; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:06:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.266 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.864, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zmW5rMfPcw+f; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA6B3A6C09; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:06:22 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8E628C355 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:06:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pbe4BQsbcOvs for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:06:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from server107.appriver.com (server107e.exghost.com [69.20.100.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F5C28C299 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by server107.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 5.2.0) with PIPE id 84530349; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:07:22 -0500 Received: from [72.32.49.5] (HELO FE1.exchange.rackspace.com) by server107.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTP id 84530335; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:07:19 -0500 Received: from 34093-EVS4C1.exchange.rackspace.com ([192.168.1.68]) by FE1.exchange.rackspace.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:07:21 -0600 Received: from 208.54.15.221 ([208.54.15.221]) by 34093-EVS4C1.exchange.rackspace.com ([192.168.1.58]) via Exchange Front-End Server owa.mailseat.com ([192.168.1.62]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 03:06:40 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:23:08 -0800 From: Mark Watson To: "Ali Begen (abegen)" , "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues Thread-Index: Achturhr2vPK5a3xQa6iuOp60OoAJgAAX5EwAABMybAAIffIEAAEU0gAAHsSD+I= In-Reply-To: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540683D31A@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> Mime-version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2008 03:07:21.0735 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C0FE170:01C87049] X-Policy: GLOBAL X-Policy: GLOBAL X-Policy: GLOBAL X-Primary: mark@digitalfountain.com X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-ALLOW: mark@digitalfountain.com ALLOWED X-Note: Spam Tests Failed: X-Country-Path: UNITED STATES->PRIVATE->UNITED STATES->UNITED STATES X-Note-Sending-IP: 72.32.49.5 X-Note-Reverse-DNS: fe1.exchange.rackspace.com X-Note-WHTLIST: mark@digitalfountain.com X-Note: User Rule Hits: X-Note: Global Rule Hits: 75 76 122 X-Note: Mail Class: ALLOWEDSENDER Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Ali, Sorry if these comments are a little late. They are non-essential apart from (7). 1) At the end of Section 3.1, you say the group attribute specification 'mandates us to write a=group:FEC S1 S2 R1 R1'. Actually, I think it would be more accurate to just say that the grouping specification does not support the case described at all. Writing 'a=group:FEC S1 S2 R1 R1' clearly doesn't make any sense in this case: it would be a defect in the specification if it 'mandated' something which made no sense, whereas I think a better way to look at it is that the specification simply doesn't address this case. 2) I'm not sure what is meant by the next sentence 'Note that source and repair flows are identified by their payload formats and/or other descriptors [I-D.begen-fecframe-sdp-elements].' Also, it doesn't seem relevant in this context where we describe limitations of the other specifications. 3) 3.3. - the requirement to obey the prioritisation is a SHOULD in this context, since it is just an optimisation. 4) 3.3 - 'It might be highly desirable to keep all the receivers ...' - 'all' should be 'most'. 5) 3.3 - 'Currently, there is no SDP semantics for indicating the priority levels of the individual flows that are grouped in an "a=group" line.' - remove from 'that are grouped ...' onwards, since we have not decided to use the a=group and indeed are pointing out where it is deficient 6) 4 - 'There are two main solution approaches.' - That's a broad statement! Perhaps you mean there are two solution approaches described in the draft ? Another possibility would be to define an fec-specific mechanism, where each repair flow simply refers directly to the protected source flows (this is done in 3GPP, for example). 7) 4.1 and 4.2 - in the examples, the FEC repair flows should be 'application' not 'video' type and the transport identifier should be 'udp/fec', not 'rtp/avp'. There should not be an rtpmap attribute. ...Mark On 2/13/08 7:45 AM, "Ali Begen (abegen)" wrote: > Hi Rajiv, > > Thanks for reading the draft. For other who have not started reading, > pls see the updated version (attached). > > I asked someone without any FEC background to comment on the draft > (seems that we will have the same issue in MMUSIC). So, I expanded the > intro part and make clarifications about what we meant with > prioritization, additivity, etc. > > Thanks again, > -acbegen > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva) >> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 5:36 AM >> To: Ali Begen (abegen); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' >> Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on >> fec grouping issues >> >> Hi Ali, >> >> That's fine. >> I just got to see the draft. Looks fine to me. >> >> Cheers, >> Rajiv >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ali Begen (abegen) >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:28 PM >>> To: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' >>> Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec >>> grouping issues >>> >>> This is just for describing the problem and showing some >> alternative >>> solutions. It does not have to become anything. >>> That's why, it is intended to be informational. >>> >>> If MMUSIC agrees to adopt one of the solutions described >> here or comes >>> up with a new one, then of course we should work on that draft >>> together, which should be in the cateogry of "proposed standard." >>> >>> However, note that MMUSIC WG should approve what needs to be done >>> here. And, that's why we need to tell them about our problems. >>> >>> -acbegen >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva) >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:17 PM >>>> To: Ali Begen (abegen); fecframe-proto@ietf.org >>>> Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec >>>> grouping issues >>>> >>>> Hi Ali, >>>> >>>> We (the protocol team) should all collaborate to jointly >> author the >>>> new draft, if/when it needs to be produced. >>>> >>>> Also, why should it be the informational draft? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Rajiv >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org >>>>> [mailto:fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ali Begen >>>>> (abegen) >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:04 PM >>>>> To: fecframe-proto@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on >>> fec grouping >>>>> issues >>>>> >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> >>>>> So far, we could not ignite a discussion in the MMUSIC WG >>> regarding >>>>> the FEC grouping issues. So, it was suggested that I >>> would write an >>>>> informational draft, describe the problems and propose some >>>>> alternative solutions. So, that is what I did. >>>>> >>>>> I am attaching the draft for your review. Note that this >>> has to be >>>>> submitted by Monday. So any comments within this week >>>> (before Friday) >>>>> would be appreciated. It is important that we convey our issues >>>>> appropriately. So, please take a few minutes to review the >>>> document. >>>>> It is very short, and should not take much time. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> -acbegen >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list > FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 15 20:22:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D563A6C09; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:22:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.276 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.276 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.439, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r5bvwAVoEDM1; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:22:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8767E3A68C2; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:22:28 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9F63A6BF6 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:22:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fdPsDWevfNc1 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0C13A68C2 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Feb 2008 20:23:45 -0800 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1G4Njb4016724; Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:23:45 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1G4Njw1019879; Sat, 16 Feb 2008 04:23:45 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.169]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:23:27 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:23:22 -0800 Message-ID: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D5406895573@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues thread-index: Achturhr2vPK5a3xQa6iuOp60OoAJgAAX5EwAABMybAAIffIEAAEU0gAAHsSD+IAAgEh8A== References: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540683D31A@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> From: "Ali Begen (abegen)" To: "Mark Watson" , "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2008 04:23:27.0174 (UTC) FILETIME=[AD469660:01C87053] Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=abegen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Hi Mark, Thanks for the review. I submitted it yesterday, but I will make the changes in the next submission (or mention them in the meeting, if we can get a slot). My comments are in between. > Ali, > > Sorry if these comments are a little late. They are > non-essential apart from (7). > > 1) At the end of Section 3.1, you say the group attribute > specification 'mandates us to write a=group:FEC S1 S2 R1 R1'. > Actually, I think it would be more accurate to just say that > the grouping specification does not support the case described at all. > > Writing 'a=group:FEC S1 S2 R1 R1' clearly doesn't make any > sense in this > case: it would be a defect in the specification if it > 'mandated' something which made no sense, whereas I think a > better way to look at it is that the specification simply > doesn't address this case. In the context of RFC 4756, the way I understand it is permissible to write "a=group:FEC S1 S2 R1 R2." It would not make much sense, I agree, but it is not forbidden, either. This line is also a valid statement from 3388's perspective. Is not it? > 2) I'm not sure what is meant by the next sentence 'Note that > source and repair flows are identified by their payload > formats and/or other descriptors > [I-D.begen-fecframe-sdp-elements].' Also, it doesn't seem > relevant in this context where we describe limitations of the > other specifications. I'll clarify here. > 3) 3.3. - the requirement to obey the prioritisation is a > SHOULD in this context, since it is just an optimisation. If I recall correctly from the design team meeting, we set this to a MUST. If you think it should be a SHOULD, we should discuss it. The current SDP draft also says it is a MUST. > 4) 3.3 - 'It might be highly desirable to keep all the > receivers ...' - 'all' should be 'most'. OK. > 5) 3.3 - 'Currently, there is no SDP semantics for indicating > the priority levels of the individual flows that are grouped > in an "a=group" line.' - remove from 'that are grouped ...' > onwards, since we have not decided to use the a=group and > indeed are pointing out where it is deficient OK. > 6) 4 - 'There are two main solution approaches.' - That's a > broad statement! > Perhaps you mean there are two solution approaches described > in the draft ? Agree. > Another possibility would be to define an fec-specific > mechanism, where each repair flow simply refers directly to > the protected source flows (this is done in 3GPP, for example). So, we should simply say 'group s1 r1', 'group s1 r2', etc if all of these repair flows are protecting s1? Is this what you meant? If that is the case, we will need something additional to signal the additivity since this approach does not differentiate the flows that are additive from the ones that are not additive. > 7) 4.1 and 4.2 - in the examples, the FEC repair flows should > be 'application' not 'video' type and the transport > identifier should be 'udp/fec', not 'rtp/avp'. There should > not be an rtpmap attribute. You mean "m=video 30000 udp application" for the source flows and "m=video 30000 UDP/FEC application" for the repair flows? Or, should the media sub-fields be "application" as well? BTW, is not using 'RTP/AVP' acceptable? At the end, we might be protecting the whole RTP packets and the stream might actually carry video, audio, etc? Or, we can't use examples with RTP/AVP for now since no payload format is defined for using RTP with fec framework? (BTW, the examples are modified from the ones in SDP draft) Thanks, -acbegen > ...Mark > > > On 2/13/08 7:45 AM, "Ali Begen (abegen)" wrote: > > > Hi Rajiv, > > > > Thanks for reading the draft. For other who have not > started reading, > > pls see the updated version (attached). > > > > I asked someone without any FEC background to comment on the draft > > (seems that we will have the same issue in MMUSIC). So, I > expanded the > > intro part and make clarifications about what we meant with > > prioritization, additivity, etc. > > > > Thanks again, > > -acbegen > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva) > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 5:36 AM > >> To: Ali Begen (abegen); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' > >> Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec > >> grouping issues > >> > >> Hi Ali, > >> > >> That's fine. > >> I just got to see the draft. Looks fine to me. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Rajiv > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Ali Begen (abegen) > >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:28 PM > >>> To: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' > >>> Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec > >>> grouping issues > >>> > >>> This is just for describing the problem and showing some > >> alternative > >>> solutions. It does not have to become anything. > >>> That's why, it is intended to be informational. > >>> > >>> If MMUSIC agrees to adopt one of the solutions described > >> here or comes > >>> up with a new one, then of course we should work on that draft > >>> together, which should be in the cateogry of "proposed standard." > >>> > >>> However, note that MMUSIC WG should approve what needs to be done > >>> here. And, that's why we need to tell them about our problems. > >>> > >>> -acbegen > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva) > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:17 PM > >>>> To: Ali Begen (abegen); fecframe-proto@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec > >>>> grouping issues > >>>> > >>>> Hi Ali, > >>>> > >>>> We (the protocol team) should all collaborate to jointly > >> author the > >>>> new draft, if/when it needs to be produced. > >>>> > >>>> Also, why should it be the informational draft? > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Rajiv > >>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org > >>>>> [mailto:fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ali Begen > >>>>> (abegen) > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:04 PM > >>>>> To: fecframe-proto@ietf.org > >>>>> Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on > >>> fec grouping > >>>>> issues > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi everyone, > >>>>> > >>>>> So far, we could not ignite a discussion in the MMUSIC WG > >>> regarding > >>>>> the FEC grouping issues. So, it was suggested that I > >>> would write an > >>>>> informational draft, describe the problems and propose some > >>>>> alternative solutions. So, that is what I did. > >>>>> > >>>>> I am attaching the draft for your review. Note that this > >>> has to be > >>>>> submitted by Monday. So any comments within this week > >>>> (before Friday) > >>>>> would be appreciated. It is important that we convey our issues > >>>>> appropriately. So, please take a few minutes to review the > >>>> document. > >>>>> It is very short, and should not take much time. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> -acbegen > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list > > FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org > > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto > > > _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 18:03:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B39533A6C2A; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:03:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.398, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_ASCII_ART_SPACINGc=0.833, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D+bBKDjx1Qcz; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEAA3A68DB; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:03:54 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E123A68DB for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:03:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OblGDuhNSWQg for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F963A692D for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2008 21:03:46 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1I23k4j030975 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:03:46 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1I23kSC008071 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 02:03:46 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.53]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:03:46 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C871D2.7EBAB1C8" Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:00:07 -0500 Message-ID: <15B86BC7352F864BB53A47B540C089B604F1F8C6@xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-asati-fecframe-config-signaling-00 Thread-Index: Achx0fxajQ954k0uQgigpBU6IBgjRw== From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 02:03:46.0498 (UTC) FILETIME=[7ED46A20:01C871D2] Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=rajiva@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] draft-asati-fecframe-config-signaling-00 X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C871D2.7EBAB1C8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please find the draft attached for your review. Hopefully, this will help us to discuss crafting the terminologies correctly. My trip to SJ got canceled yday, due to the "no travel policy" (without VP approval) that kicked in on Friday. So, I won't be in SJ on the 18th. :( Of course, We can still have a concall on the 18th. 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fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 18:27:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3D03A6C2F; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.459 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.459 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wtF3PxZCK0ts; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB1D3A67F7; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:51 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CAA83A6C2A for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TnWJtYGjq2+Q for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com (rtp-iport-1.cisco.com [64.102.122.148]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC143A6BDA for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2008 21:27:46 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1I2RjOQ003469 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:27:45 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1I2QnSQ013804 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 02:27:45 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.53]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:27:17 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:27:17 -0500 Message-ID: <15B86BC7352F864BB53A47B540C089B604F1F8D1@xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Comments to draft-ietf-fecframe-framework-01.txt Thread-Index: Achx1KTGZjnd1h5yRrSN+H47uPGstQ== From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 02:27:17.0461 (UTC) FILETIME=[C7D44850:01C871D5] Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=rajiva@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] Comments to draft-ietf-fecframe-framework-01.txt X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Hi Mark, While working on the signaling draft, I reviewed the framework-01 draft a bit carefully, and got the following (minor) comments for our consideration - ~~~~~~~~~~ 1) Section 1- Introduction .....It is expected that any complete content delivery protocol specification which makes use of this framework will address these signalling requirement(s). TO .....It is expected that any complete content delivery protocol specification which makes use of this framework will also make use of a signalling protocol to satisfy signalling requirement(s). The signalling protocol is part of the FEC framework. 2) Section 4- Architecture Overview .....The FEC framework does not define how the FEC framework configuration information for the stream is communicated from sender to receiver. This must be defined by any content delivery protocol specification as described in the following section. TO .....The FEC framework defines the usage of any signaling protocol by which FEC framework configuration information for the stream is communicated from sender to receiver. This must be adopted by any content delivery protocol specification making use of the FEC Framework. 3) Section 6- Protocol Overview Change the title to "Building Block Overview", since Protocol doesn't quite convey what protocol it is. 4) Section 2- Terminology 4.1 - Clarify the definition of 'Source Payload ID' and 'Repair Payload ID' a bit more. For example, Repair FEC Payload ID -- A FEC Payload ID to identify the source block and the mapping between the contained repair data and the original source block. Source Payload ID -- A FEC Payload ID to identify the mapping of source packet(s) with a source block. 4.2 - Add definition for "Restoration Window" (based on last meeting) as well as "instance" (which is used heavily in SDP Elements draft). We are freely interchanging stream and flow terms. Need to define them and use them appropriately. Suggest to stick with Flow. 5) Section 6 - Protocol Specification Are 'Source FEC Payload ID' and 'Repair Payload ID' conveyed by sender to receiver using the singaling protocol? Are they the same? Not clear in 6.1, 6.2 and 6.3. 6) Section 6.5 - Why is FEC Framework Instance not a mandatory info The configuration information is to be formulated for each FEC framework instance. Hence, we should mandatorily include the "instance" identifier, if not already. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cheers, Rajiv _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 18:27:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1483A6C29; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.307 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.307 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.870, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l9HswhbucWWz; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41813A6BFC; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:51 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA263A6BDA for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5PgZbdgSX++X for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C763A67F7 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2008 21:27:45 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1I2Rj8t004705; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:27:45 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1I2QnSM013804; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 02:27:45 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.53]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:27:17 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:24:47 -0500 Message-ID: <15B86BC7352F864BB53A47B540C089B604F1F8D2@xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540675610C@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft Thread-Index: Achnee9WcAW3uiUVRpSvCMQCZdokwwAAepywApZA3CA= From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: "Ali Begen (abegen)" , "Ulas Kozat" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 02:27:17.0976 (UTC) FILETIME=[C822DD80:01C871D5] Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=rajiva@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Cc: fecframe-proto@ietf.org Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org > 2. Are we going to specify a feedback description other > than the FEC-scheme specific one as part of SDP elements? > E.g., is the sender capable of receiving any FEC performance > feedback or whether the receiver capable of sending any feedback? Given that it has to do with the capability of either sender or receiver or both, it should be specified within the (common) configuration information that can be utilized accordingly. It is the same field that could be specified as either "rcv only" or "send only" etc. Cheers, Rajiv > -----Original Message----- > From: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ali > Begen (abegen) > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 5:26 PM > To: Ulas Kozat > Cc: fecframe-proto@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft > > Hi Ulas. > > Thanks for the comments. > > 1- We define the priority field in the repair flow > descriptor. However, I did not want to use it in the examples > (not yet) since assigning priority means we can use multiple > repair flows in an additive manner. And as you know, that > issue is still at hand. I believe at least for now we should > not give examples involving additivity and prioritization. > > However, different repair sizes are already used in the last example. > > 2- Good question. I am not sure whether that should be a part > of the FSSI (receiver side) or we should specify a new > separate element, which is part of the configuration > information (hence, common to all FEC schemes)? \ > > I am inclined towards including in the RS-FSSI? But, either > is fine with me. We decided to make it optional. So, the > configuration information may ignore or skip it. > > Any comments? > > -acbegen > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ulas Kozat [mailto:ulas.kozat@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:05 PM > To: Ali Begen (abegen) > Cc: fecframe-proto@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft > > > Ali, > > The document looks okay with the notes, etc. I have a > few comments: > 1. Maybe we can add one more example for single source > flow and 2 repair flows with priority. Also, in such a > scenario, should we be able to define 2 different time > windows for each repair flow? > 2. Are we going to specify a feedback description other > than the FEC-scheme specific one as part of SDP elements? > E.g., is the sender capable of receiving any FEC performance > feedback or whether the receiver capable of sending any feedback? > > Ulas > > > On Feb 3, 2008 3:41 AM, Ali Begen (abegen) > wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > I made the changes we discussed last week in > the SDP draft. I am > attaching the txt and xml files. > > I would like to hear your feedback before I > submit it as a WG document. > Could you at least go over the new sections and > SDP examples? > > The changes include: > - Divided the FEC-scheme-specific-information > (FSSI) container into two. > Now, we have one container (Sender-side FSSI) > which includes the > information required only by the sender. The > rest of the FSSI info goes > to the other container (Receiver-side FSSI). > The FEC scheme decides what > goes to where. > > - Media stream grouping: I updated the text > based on our last > discussion. The discussion is still going on in > the MMUSIC and FECFRAME > WGs. We need to come up with something that > allows us to associate the > repair and source flows in a flexible manner. > RFC 3388 is severely > limiting us. > > I also added the cases where we would want to > use multiple framework > instances in Section 4.2. > > - Repair flow descriptors: I updated this > section (4.5) as we now have > two containers for FSSI. I also changed the > "Scheme ID" to "Encoding ID" > to be consistent with the framework draft. > > - Repair Window: Section 4.6 is re-written. > Now, we support both ms and > us. > > - Section 5 is re-written. I added three SDP > examples. Please go over > the examples and let me know if something is > missing or incorrect. > > Thanks, > -acbegen > > > _______________________________________________ > FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list > FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto > > > > > _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 17 18:27:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B634A3A6BFC; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.262 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.262 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.825, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T9epnJl99HYf; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89273A6C2A; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:51 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA6D3A67F7 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PzXMrDVDkzgC for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9073A6BFC for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2008 21:27:45 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m1I2Rju9004709 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:27:45 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id m1I2QnSO013804 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 02:27:45 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.53]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:27:17 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:27:17 -0500 Message-ID: <15B86BC7352F864BB53A47B540C089B604F1F8D0@xmb-rtp-20b.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D5406755D80@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft Thread-Index: AchmWcPQ/2cPVaSvQi2SWUyNdxQl7QLeUZuw From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: "Ali Begen (abegen)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2008 02:27:17.0289 (UTC) FILETIME=[C7BA0990:01C871D5] Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=rajiva@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Hi Ali, Sorry about the delay. I had few comments to draft-begen-fecframe-sdp-elements-00. Perhaps, you could consider them during the next revision. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1) Section 1- Introduction & Section 4 .....Framework, a set of parameters pertaining to the FEC Framework MUST be initially communicated between the sender(s) and receiver(s). One way to communicate this information is to use the Session Description Protocol (SDP)[RFC4566]. SDP provides a simple .... TO .....Framework, a set of parameters pertaining to the FEC Framework Configuration Information MUST be initially communicated between the sender(s) and receiver(s). While a signaling protocol (such as one described in draft-asati-fecframe-config-signaling) is required to enable such communication, the parameters pertaining to the Configuration Information must be appropriately encoded so that they are carried by the signaling protocol. One format to encode the parameters is to use the Session Description Protocol (SDP)[RFC4566]. SDP provides a simple .... 2) Section 1- Introduction & Section 4 < The current text doesn't refer to the fact that SDP is used to encode the FEC framework configuration information> One way to communicate this information is to use the Session Description Protocol (SDP)[RFC4566]. SDP provides a simple text-based format for announcements and invitations to describe multimedia sessions. These SDP announcements and invitations include sufficient information for the sender(s) and receiver(s) to participate in the multimedia sessions. SDP also provides a framework for capability negotiation, which MAY be used to negotiate all or a subset of the parameters pertaining to the individual sessions. TO One format to communicate this information is to use the Session Description Protocol (SDP)[RFC4566]. SDP provides a simple text-based format to describe multimedia sessions (i.e. to encode some information) signaled within an annoucement or invitation. The encoded information is sufficient for the sender(s) and receiver(s) to participate in the multimedia sessions. The multimedia session is considered to be an instance of FEC Framework, as per this document. SDP also provides a framework for capability negotiation, which MAY be used to negotiate all or a subset of the parameters pertaining to the FEC Framework configuration information. Note that SDP does not provide the transport for dissemination of the encoded information. Signaling Protocol such as the one described in draft-asati-fecframe-config-signaling can be used to transport the SDP encoded configuration information. 3) Section 1- Introduction & Section 4 < The current text doesn't refer to the fact that SDP is used to encode the FEC framework configuration information> The purpose of this document is to introduce the SDP elements that MUST be used by the CDPs using the FEC Framework that choose SDP [RFC4566] as their session description protocol. TO The purpose of this document is to introduce the SDP elements that MUST be used by the CDPs using the FEC Framework that choose SDP [RFC4566] as encoding format for the FEC Framework configuration information. 4) Section 1 We are freely interchanging stream and flow terms. Need to define them and use them appropriately. Suggest to stick with Flow. 5) Section 3.3 - FEC framework Config Info ... .. This information is called the FEC Framework Configuration Information. This information specifies how the sender applies protection to the source flow(s) and how the repair flow(s) can be used to recover lost data... . . TO .....This information is called the FEC Framework Configuration Information. This information specifies the parameter(s) that the sender uses to apply protection to the source flow(s) and to recover the lost data using the repair flow(s) ....... 6) Section 4- FEC framework descriptors The title should be changed to 'SDP Descriptors for FEC framework configuration information'. 7) "FEC Framework Instance" The configuration information is to be formulated for each FEC framework instance. The SDP draft must include, if not already, a mean to encode the "instance" identifier in addition to the SDP elements themselves, since without the "instance" identifier, the config info may not be useful. Is the "instance" the same as "group"? If so, then we definitely need to add some text section 4 and section 4.2 to call it out. 8) Section 4.3 Source IP address The section should also acknowledge that the Source IP address specified in "origin:" attribute of the SDP message is independent of the Source IP address(es) specified in the source-filter attribute. Also need some verbiage regarding the source-filter usage at the session level or media level or both. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cheers, Rajiv > -----Original Message----- > From: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ali > Begen (abegen) > Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 6:42 AM > To: fecframe-proto@ietf.org > Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] New SDP draft > > Hi everyone, > > I made the changes we discussed last week in the SDP draft. I am > attaching the txt and xml files. > > I would like to hear your feedback before I submit it as a WG > document. > Could you at least go over the new sections and SDP examples? > > The changes include: > - Divided the FEC-scheme-specific-information (FSSI) > container into two. > Now, we have one container (Sender-side FSSI) which includes the > information required only by the sender. The rest of the FSSI > info goes > to the other container (Receiver-side FSSI). The FEC scheme > decides what > goes to where. > > - Media stream grouping: I updated the text based on our last > discussion. The discussion is still going on in the MMUSIC > and FECFRAME > WGs. We need to come up with something that allows us to associate the > repair and source flows in a flexible manner. RFC 3388 is severely > limiting us. > > I also added the cases where we would want to use multiple framework > instances in Section 4.2. > > - Repair flow descriptors: I updated this section (4.5) as we now have > two containers for FSSI. I also changed the "Scheme ID" to > "Encoding ID" > to be consistent with the framework draft. > > - Repair Window: Section 4.6 is re-written. Now, we support > both ms and > us. > > - Section 5 is re-written. I added three SDP examples. Please go over > the examples and let me know if something is missing or incorrect. > > Thanks, > -acbegen > > _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 10:36:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203B13A6CE9; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.797 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.797 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.360, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VqoaRHd8art1; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D32A33A6D62; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:36:20 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6CD3A6CE9 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:36:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y3HbToO-Nhel for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.243]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83EE53A67E7 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d11so426226and.122 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.253.12 with SMTP id a12mr12004734ani.93.1203359768869; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.119.4 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:36:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38c19b540802181036pc029d01j3736b7ba76b9b231@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:36:08 -0800 From: "Greg Shepherd" To: "Ali Begen (abegen)" In-Reply-To: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D54068956D1@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D54068956D1@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> Cc: fecframe-proto@ietf.org Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] [MMUSIC] FW: New Version Notification for draft-begen-mmusic-fec-grouping-issues-00 X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Ali, Thanks for doing this. Hopefully this will get us some traction toward a solution. Greg On Feb 18, 2008 4:43 AM, Ali Begen (abegen) wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I submitted an informational draft explaining the issues related to FEC > grouping within SDP. > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-begen-mmusic-fec-grouping-issues-00.txt > > Please share your comments. > > > -acbegen > > -----Original Message----- > From: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org] > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:23 PM > To: Ali Begen (abegen) > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-begen-mmusic-fec-grouping-issues-00 > > > A new version of I-D, draft-begen-mmusic-fec-grouping-issues-00.txt has > been successfuly submitted by Ali Begen and posted to the IETF > repository. > > Filename: draft-begen-mmusic-fec-grouping-issues > Revision: 00 > Title: FEC Grouping Issues in Session Description Protocol > Creation_date: 2008-02-14 > WG ID: Independent Submission > Number_of_pages: 12 > > Abstract: > The Session Description Protocol (SDP) currently supports grouping media > lines. SDP also has semantics defined for grouping the associated > source and Forward Error Correction (FEC)-based repair flows. However, > the existing specifications have strict requirements that severely limit > the use of the new features that are currently under development in the > FECFRAME WG. These new features will allow applications to use FEC in a > more flexible way but they require changes in the current > specifications. This document provides a list of the required changes > and discusses potential approaches to make these changes. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat. > > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto From fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 18 18:25:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-fecframe-proto-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBBFB3A6B0F; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:25:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.266 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.864, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CQMws5VJtPyx; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:25:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from core3.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D0A3A6D8A; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:25:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: fecframe-proto@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9F023A6826 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:25:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DZ4wMckb6m4f for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:25:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from server107.appriver.com (server107l.exghost.com [69.20.106.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6903A6D7F for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:24:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by server107.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 5.2.0) with PIPE id 86211670; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:24:25 -0500 Received: from [72.32.49.5] (HELO FE1.exchange.rackspace.com) by server107.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTP id 86211659; Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:24:25 -0500 Received: from 34093-EVS4C1.exchange.rackspace.com ([192.168.1.68]) by FE1.exchange.rackspace.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:24:30 -0600 Received: from 67.101.149.5 ([67.101.149.5]) by 34093-EVS4C1.exchange.rackspace.com ([192.168.1.58]) via Exchange Front-End Server owa.mailseat.com ([192.168.1.62]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 02:24:30 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:24:20 -0800 From: Mark Watson To: "Ali Begen (abegen)" , "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues Thread-Index: Achturhr2vPK5a3xQa6iuOp60OoAJgAAX5EwAABMybAAIffIEAAEU0gAAHsSD+IAAgEh8ACU6Wmz In-Reply-To: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D5406895573@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> Mime-version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Feb 2008 02:24:30.0182 (UTC) FILETIME=[8E894860:01C8729E] X-Policy: GLOBAL X-Policy: GLOBAL X-Policy: GLOBAL X-Primary: mark@digitalfountain.com X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-ALLOW: mark@digitalfountain.com ALLOWED X-Note: Spam Tests Failed: X-Country-Path: UNITED STATES->PRIVATE->UNITED STATES->UNITED STATES X-Note-Sending-IP: 72.32.49.5 X-Note-Reverse-DNS: fe1.exchange.rackspace.com X-Note-WHTLIST: mark@digitalfountain.com X-Note: User Rule Hits: X-Note: Global Rule Hits: 75 76 122 X-Note: Mail Class: ALLOWEDSENDER Subject: Re: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec grouping issues X-BeenThere: fecframe-proto@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Fecframe protocol design team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org Ali, See comments inline... On 2/15/08 8:23 PM, "Ali Begen (abegen)" wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Thanks for the review. I submitted it yesterday, but I will make the > changes in the next submission (or mention them in the meeting, if we > can get a slot). > > My comments are in between. > >> Ali, >> >> Sorry if these comments are a little late. They are >> non-essential apart from (7). >> >> 1) At the end of Section 3.1, you say the group attribute >> specification 'mandates us to write a=group:FEC S1 S2 R1 R1'. >> Actually, I think it would be more accurate to just say that >> the grouping specification does not support the case described at all. >> >> Writing 'a=group:FEC S1 S2 R1 R1' clearly doesn't make any >> sense in this >> case: it would be a defect in the specification if it >> 'mandated' something which made no sense, whereas I think a >> better way to look at it is that the specification simply >> doesn't address this case. > > In the context of RFC 4756, the way I understand it is permissible to > write "a=group:FEC S1 S2 R1 R2." It would not make much sense, I agree, > but it is not forbidden, either. This line is also a valid statement > from 3388's perspective. Is not it? > To say something is "not forbidden" is different from saying it is "mandated". The RFC simply doesn't give any indication of what to do in the scenario we are talking about. You have read into it that because the only thing close is a=group:FEC S1 S2 R1 R2 then this is that the RFC "intended" for this case. But the RFC didn't intend anything for this case - you're reading in more than it says. We might as well say the RFC mandates writing "a=group:FEC" with just as much justification and making just as much sense (i.e. None). >> 2) I'm not sure what is meant by the next sentence 'Note that >> source and repair flows are identified by their payload >> formats and/or other descriptors >> [I-D.begen-fecframe-sdp-elements].' Also, it doesn't seem >> relevant in this context where we describe limitations of the >> other specifications. > > I'll clarify here. > >> 3) 3.3. - the requirement to obey the prioritisation is a >> SHOULD in this context, since it is just an optimisation. > > If I recall correctly from the design team meeting, we set this to a > MUST. If you think it should be a SHOULD, we should discuss it. The > current SDP draft also says it is a MUST. > >> 4) 3.3 - 'It might be highly desirable to keep all the >> receivers ...' - 'all' should be 'most'. > > OK. > >> 5) 3.3 - 'Currently, there is no SDP semantics for indicating >> the priority levels of the individual flows that are grouped >> in an "a=group" line.' - remove from 'that are grouped ...' >> onwards, since we have not decided to use the a=group and >> indeed are pointing out where it is deficient > > OK. > >> 6) 4 - 'There are two main solution approaches.' - That's a >> broad statement! >> Perhaps you mean there are two solution approaches described >> in the draft ? > > Agree. > >> Another possibility would be to define an fec-specific >> mechanism, where each repair flow simply refers directly to >> the protected source flows (this is done in 3GPP, for example). > > So, we should simply say 'group s1 r1', 'group s1 r2', etc if all of > these repair flows are protecting s1? Is this what you meant? If that is > the case, we will need something additional to signal the additivity > since this approach does not differentiate the flows that are additive > from the ones that are not additive. For example, we could have an fec-specific attribute (e.g. a=fec-repair) and somewhere in that attribute line is the list of protected source flows. > >> 7) 4.1 and 4.2 - in the examples, the FEC repair flows should >> be 'application' not 'video' type and the transport >> identifier should be 'udp/fec', not 'rtp/avp'. There should >> not be an rtpmap attribute. > > You mean "m=video 30000 udp application" for the source flows and > "m=video 30000 UDP/FEC application" for the repair flows? Or, should the > media sub-fields be "application" as well? No, I mean "m=application 3000 udp/fec" for the repair flow. The repair flow is not an audio or video flow. The source flow syntax is unchanged by the use of FEC. > > BTW, is not using 'RTP/AVP' acceptable? No. The repair flows are not RTP flows. There is no RTP layer defined in the repair packet format. > At the end, we might be > protecting the whole RTP packets and the stream might actually carry > video, audio, etc? Or, we can't use examples with RTP/AVP for now since > no payload format is defined for using RTP with fec framework? > If there is RTP involved, it's in the source flows, not the repair flow. So it it not correct to say the repair flow is an RTP flow. > (BTW, the examples are modified from the ones in SDP draft) So, then, that is wrong as well. Any chance to update before the meeting ? > > Thanks, > -acbegen > >> ...Mark >> >> >> On 2/13/08 7:45 AM, "Ali Begen (abegen)" wrote: >> >>> Hi Rajiv, >>> >>> Thanks for reading the draft. For other who have not >> started reading, >>> pls see the updated version (attached). >>> >>> I asked someone without any FEC background to comment on the draft >>> (seems that we will have the same issue in MMUSIC). So, I >> expanded the >>> intro part and make clarifications about what we meant with >>> prioritization, additivity, etc. >>> >>> Thanks again, >>> -acbegen >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva) >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 5:36 AM >>>> To: Ali Begen (abegen); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' >>>> Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec >>>> grouping issues >>>> >>>> Hi Ali, >>>> >>>> That's fine. >>>> I just got to see the draft. Looks fine to me. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Rajiv >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Ali Begen (abegen) >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:28 PM >>>>> To: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); 'fecframe-proto@ietf.org' >>>>> Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec >>>>> grouping issues >>>>> >>>>> This is just for describing the problem and showing some >>>> alternative >>>>> solutions. It does not have to become anything. >>>>> That's why, it is intended to be informational. >>>>> >>>>> If MMUSIC agrees to adopt one of the solutions described >>>> here or comes >>>>> up with a new one, then of course we should work on that draft >>>>> together, which should be in the cateogry of "proposed standard." >>>>> >>>>> However, note that MMUSIC WG should approve what needs to be done >>>>> here. And, that's why we need to tell them about our problems. >>>>> >>>>> -acbegen >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Rajiv Asati (rajiva) >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:17 PM >>>>>> To: Ali Begen (abegen); fecframe-proto@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on fec >>>>>> grouping issues >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Ali, >>>>>> >>>>>> We (the protocol team) should all collaborate to jointly >>>> author the >>>>>> new draft, if/when it needs to be produced. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, why should it be the informational draft? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Rajiv >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org >>>>>>> [mailto:fecframe-proto-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ali Begen >>>>>>> (abegen) >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:04 PM >>>>>>> To: fecframe-proto@ietf.org >>>>>>> Subject: [FECFRAME-PROTO] A new informational draft on >>>>> fec grouping >>>>>>> issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So far, we could not ignite a discussion in the MMUSIC WG >>>>> regarding >>>>>>> the FEC grouping issues. So, it was suggested that I >>>>> would write an >>>>>>> informational draft, describe the problems and propose some >>>>>>> alternative solutions. So, that is what I did. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am attaching the draft for your review. Note that this >>>>> has to be >>>>>>> submitted by Monday. So any comments within this week >>>>>> (before Friday) >>>>>>> would be appreciated. It is important that we convey our issues >>>>>>> appropriately. So, please take a few minutes to review the >>>>>> document. >>>>>>> It is very short, and should not take much time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> -acbegen >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list >>> FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org >>> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ FECFRAME-PROTO mailing list FECFRAME-PROTO@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe-proto