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I received these comments from Avri on the framework...

-----Original Message-----
From: avri [mailto:avri@psg.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 12:59 AM
To: Yang, Lily L
Subject: Comments on framework-12


Hi,

I know this is very late, but decided to reread the whole document as=20
opposed to just the changes.   Apologies.  I am just getting deeply=20
involved in a ForCES project so I am rereading everything with fresh=20
eyes.

- Definitions

     Pre-association Phase - The period of time during which an FE
     Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are determining
     which FE and CE should be part of the same network element.

As I have mentioned in other posting, this phase is likely to last long=20
into the post-association phase.  I think it might be better to cast=20
the definition in terms of a single CE-FE association.

Suggestion:

     Pre-association Phase - The period of time during which an FE
     Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are determining
     whether an FE and a CE should be part of the same network element.
     It is possible for some elements of the NE to be in pre-association =

phase
     while other elements are in the post-association phase.

- section 3

     There is no
     defined role for FE Manager and CE Manager in post-association
     phase, thus these logical components are not considered part of the
     ForCES NE.

I think this is misleading for the same reason given above.  The idea=20
of pre and post association belongs to the 2 elements and not to the NE=20
at large.  A dynamic system may have elements in pre-association as it=20
has elements in post-association.  I recommend dropping the sentence.


- section 3.2

     Instead, FEs
     accept commands from any CE authorized to control them, and it is
     up to the CEs to coordinate among themselves to achieve redundancy,
     load sharing or distributed control.

I am assuming that the FE accepts commands on a first come first served=20
basis.  If so, this should probably be said.  If not, then the possible=20
existence of a prioritization scheme should be mentioned.

-section 4.1 Pre-association phase

     Pre-association phase is the period of time during which an FE
     Manager and a CE Manager are determining which FE and CE should be
     part of the same network element.

Same comments as made above for the definition of the pre-association=20
phase.

- section 4.1.1

this section reflects the same notion that the pre-association phase=20
occurs at a singular moment of time in the system.

     the CE
     and FE managers communicate to determine which CEs and FEs should
     communicate with each other.

suggest:

     the CE and FE managers communicate to determine whether
     an individual CE and FE, or a set of CEs and FEs, should be=20
associated.

- section 4.2.2 - message exchange diagram

I think that since the delivery of inter-FE toplogy is optional, the=20
diagram should indicate this.

- section 4.2.2.

    Once FE starts
    accepting packets for processing, we say the association of this FE
    with its CE is now established.

This may be a pedantic point, but I would think that the the=20
association needs to be established before the process of accepting=20
packets for forwarding occurs.

Suggest:

    Once the necessary exchange of initial information is exchanged,
    the process of association can be completed.  Processing packets
    for forwarding cannot begin until association is established.


- section 4.2.4

I think the language  in:

     In light of the fact that the ForCES protocol is responsible for
     transporting both the control messages and the data packets between
     the CE and FE over Fp reference point, it is possible to use either
     a single protocol or multiple protocols to achieve this.

can be confusing.  Several times in the document 'protocol' is used to=20
refer both to the ForCES Protocol and to the possible protocols that=20
might comprise the ForCES protocol.  I know what is meant here, but=20
everytime I read it, I need to stop and think. Perhaps some convention=20
of either capitalizing the 'protocol' in ForCES Protocol or using some=20
difficult phrase like component protocol will help with the=20
differentiation.

- section 4.2.5

     In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to the
     lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol directly, a
     proxy FE can be used in the middle of Fp reference point.  This
     allows the CE communicate to the physical FE via the proxy by using
     ForCES, while the proxy manipulates the physical FE using some
     intermediary form of communication (e.g., a non-ForCES protocol or
     DMA).  In such an implementation, the combination of the proxy and
     the physical FE becomes one logical FE entity.

I think that the Fp terminates at the proxy as opposed to the proxy=20
being at a midpoint.  This is reinforced by the following sentence that=20
declares that proxy + non forCES FE comprises the FE.

Question:  is ther a one to one mapping between FE and proxies.  Could=20
a Proxy serve several non ForCES FEs and would they be seen as a single=20
FE by the CE.  I think so, but I am not sure.

- section 4.3.1

This only pertains when the entire CE set falls.  If an individual CE=20
falls then the circumstance may be different.


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Subject: Lindenberg e o Clero "sem-microfone"                                    ref.: txj
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<FONT FACE="Garamond" SIZE=2><P ALIGN="CENTER">Ref.: riy <!-- Lista recibida:
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--></FONT><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=SendLinkToFreeAutomaticTranslator"><FONT SIZE=2>FreeAutomaticTranslator</FONT></A><FONT FACE="Garamond" SIZE=2> / </FONT><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=EnviarLinkTraductorGratuito"><FONT SIZE=2>TraductorGratuito</FONT></A><FONT FACE="Garamond" SIZE=2> / </FONT><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:Retirar"><FONT SIZE=2>Retirar</FONT></A> / <A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:SubscreverGratuitamente"><FONT SIZE=2>SubscreverGratuitamente</FONT></A> 
<B><FONT FACE="Garamond" SIZE=4><P>S&eacute;rie Temas "Patrulhados" (2)</P>
</FONT><FONT FACE="Garamond" SIZE=5><P ALIGN="CENTER">Acabemos com mais uma exclus&atilde;o: o Brasil precisa ouvir a voz do Clero sem-microfone</P>
</B></FONT><I><FONT FACE="Garamond" SIZE=4><P ALIGN="CENTER">"Por que os grupelhos contestat&aacute;rios, de intenso ativismo no interior da Igreja, e cuja especialidade &eacute; reivindicar todo tipo de medidas antiexclus&atilde;o, n&atilde;o incluem na sua agenda o fim do boicote contra os sacerdotes sem-microfone?"</P>
</I></FONT><FONT FACE="Garamond"><P>Adolpho Lindenberg</P>
<P>O destaque que, h&aacute; muitos anos, a m&iacute;dia vem dando aos pronunciamentos de bispos e sacerdotes (em geral ligados &agrave; CNBB), incitando as invas&otilde;es de terras promovidas pelo MST, criticando indiscriminadamente a &Aacute;rea de Livre Com&eacute;rcio das Am&eacute;ricas (ALCA), as privatiza&ccedil;&otilde;es, as multinacionais (as norte-americanas, em especial), e o plantio dos transg&ecirc;nicos, apresenta um inconveniente s&eacute;rio: tais pronunciamentos podem criar a impress&atilde;o de que a maioria do Episcopado e dos setores mais respons&aacute;veis do Clero brasileiro pensa como esses prelados.</P>
<B><P>Movimentos contestat&aacute;rios</P>
</B><P>&Eacute; contristador perceber que na vasta rede de movimentos contestat&aacute;rios que est&aacute; sendo articulada por todo o pa&iacute;s, a ala progressista religiosa - fruto das Comunidades de Base e da Comiss&atilde;o Pastoral da Terra (CPT) - se sobressai como o n&uacute;cleo mais ativo e radical em suas convic&ccedil;&otilde;es. Para esses movimentos de contesta&ccedil;&atilde;o &eacute; de fundamental import&acirc;ncia dar a impress&atilde;o de que expressam a opini&atilde;o majorit&aacute;ria, ou pelo menos muito expressiva, do Episcopado e no Clero.</P>
<P>N&atilde;o &eacute; verdade, necessariamente. </P>
<B><P>Uma minoria do Clero fala, a maioria est&aacute; calada</P>
</B><P>A realidade profunda &eacute; bem outra. A maioria do Episcopado e do Clero, na realidade, n&atilde;o tem voz nem vez na grande m&iacute;dia. Suas pastorais, serm&otilde;es e opini&otilde;es n&atilde;o chegam ao grande p&uacute;blico. Quase ningu&eacute;m os conhece, s&oacute; alguns paroquianos e amigos pr&oacute;ximos, com quem compartilham confid&ecirc;ncias. Eles s&atilde;o os prelados e sacerdotes sem-microfone; pertencem &agrave; imensa maioria dos exclu&iacute;dos dos grandes meios de difus&atilde;o. E muitos deles inteligentes, cultos, de express&atilde;o f&aacute;cil, com reflex&otilde;es que ajudariam muito &agrave; aut&ecirc;ntica forma&ccedil;&atilde;o da opini&atilde;o nacional. At&eacute; por exig&ecirc;ncia de equil&iacute;brio na pondera&ccedil;&atilde;o das opini&otilde;es e de equidade em rela&ccedil;&atilde;o a este setor social, eles tamb&eacute;m precisariam ser ouvidos.</P>
<B><P>Padres sem-microfone s&atilde;o discriminados</B> </P>
<P>O grande n&uacute;mero dos padres sem-microfone, muitas vezes, talvez na maioria esmagadora dos casos, teria reservas s&eacute;rias com as invas&otilde;es e depreda&ccedil;&otilde;es das propriedades agr&iacute;colas. Mas s&atilde;o discriminados, n&atilde;o s&atilde;o ouvidos pelo p&uacute;blico. De nada adiantam suas advert&ecirc;ncias. N&atilde;o repercutem. Est&atilde;o exclu&iacute;dos. Para eles, n&atilde;o funciona a encena&ccedil;&atilde;o publicit&aacute;ria aparatosa, suas opini&otilde;es s&atilde;o ignoradas pela grande imprensa, o que acontece por exemplo no caso de "O Grito dos Exclu&iacute;dos". &Eacute; que, para azar deles, nem est&atilde;o entre os promotores da revolu&ccedil;&atilde;o social, nem pertencem aos pequenos grupos dos privilegiados pela m&iacute;dia.</P>
<B><P>Excluir a exclus&atilde;o</P>
</B><P>&Eacute; preciso que se inclua entre os formadores de opini&atilde;o, com acesso &agrave; m&iacute;dia, tamb&eacute;m os prelados e sacerdotes que hoje est&atilde;o sem microfone. Por que deix&aacute;-los de fora? Por que os grupelhos contestat&aacute;rios, de intenso ativismo no interior da Igreja, e cuja especialidade &eacute; reivindicar todo tipo de medidas antiexclus&atilde;o, n&atilde;o incluem na agenda j&aacute; t&atilde;o abrangente do "Grito dos Exclu&iacute;dos" tamb&eacute;m o fim do boicote contra os sacerdotes sem-microfone? Afinal de contas, n&atilde;o se proclamam os seus participantes em batalha contra as exclus&otilde;es, pelo fim das discrimina&ccedil;&otilde;es? Ou &eacute; que umas exclus&otilde;es podem existir, e s&atilde;o bem-vindas, e outras n&atilde;o? Se for assim afastam-se do que deseja o povo, pois milh&otilde;es de brasileiros querem saber o que pensa o Clero sem-microfone.</P>
<P>Adolpho Lindenberg &eacute; autor do livro <B>"Os cat&oacute;licos e a economia de mercado"</B>.</P>
</FONT><P>LINKS:</P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:Concordo">Lindenberg:Concordo</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (envie seu voto virtual, e, melhor ainda, acrescente seu coment&aacute;rio, caso desejar)</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:Discordo">Lindenberg:Discordo</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (idem)</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:MinhaOpini&atilde;o">Lindenberg:MinhaOpini&atilde;o</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (para enviar sua valiosa opini&atilde;o, assim como sugerir a Lindenberg temas relacionados com a tem&aacute;tica apresentada, a serem abordados em seus pr&oacute;ximos artigos)</P>
<P>LINKS PARA RECEBER ARTIGOS GRATUITOS:</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:PaginasGratuitas">PaginasGratuitas</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (para receber gratuitamente, por e-mail, &Iacute;ndice e Introdu&ccedil;&atilde;o &agrave; edi&ccedil;&atilde;o brasileira do livro de Lindenberg)</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:GratuitamenteArtigosAnteriores">GratuitamenteArtigosAnteriores</A> / <A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:GratuitamenteProximosArtigos">GratuitamenteProximosArtigos</A> / <A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:GratuitamenteTodosOsArtigos">GratuitamenteTodosOsArtigos</A></P>
<FONT FACE="Garamond"><P>LINKS PARA ADQUIRIR O LIVRO</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:DesejoAdquirirLivroEmPortugal">Lindenberg:DesejoAdquirirLivroEmPortugal</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (receber&aacute; por e-mail o link para adquirir o livro impresso, diretamente da Editora em Portugal; pre&ccedil;o: E 19,45)</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:DesejoAdquirirLivroNoBrasil">Lindenberg:DesejoAdquirirLivroNoBrasil</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (receber&aacute; por e-mail o link para adquirir o livro impresso, diretamente da Editora no Brasil, com cart&atilde;o de cr&eacute;dito ou boleto banc&aacute;rio; pre&ccedil;o: R$ 30,00 mais Correio)</P>
</FONT><P>LINK DE REMO&Ccedil;&Atilde;O</P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=ConstruNews:Remover">ConstruNews:Remover</A></P>
<P>LINK PARA TOMAR CONTATO COM LINDENBERG</P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:constru_news@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:TomarContato">Lindenberg:TomarContato</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (tamb&eacute;m pode ligar diretamente, se desejar, ao 11- 92527873, em S&atilde;o Paulo)</P>
</FONT><B><FONT FACE="Garamond" SIZE=2><P ALIGN="CENTER">A difus&atilde;o e o conte&uacute;do desta mensagem s&atilde;o de exclusiva responsabilidade da ConstruNews</P></B></FONT></BODY>
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From: "Yang, Lily L" <lily.l.yang@intel.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on framework-12
Comments: To: avri@psg.com
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my reponse in line ...=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
> [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf Of Yang, Lily L
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:55 PM
> To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: FW: Comments on framework-12
>=20
>=20
> I received these comments from Avri on the framework...
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: avri [mailto:avri@psg.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 12:59 AM
> To: Yang, Lily L
> Subject: Comments on framework-12
>=20
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I know this is very late, but decided to reread the whole document as=20
> opposed to just the changes.   Apologies.  I am just getting deeply=20
> involved in a ForCES project so I am rereading everything with fresh=20
> eyes.
>=20
> - Definitions
>=20
>      Pre-association Phase - The period of time during which an FE
>      Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are determining
>      which FE and CE should be part of the same network element.
>=20
> As I have mentioned in other posting, this phase is likely to=20
> last long=20
> into the post-association phase.  I think it might be better to cast=20
> the definition in terms of a single CE-FE association.
>=20
> Suggestion:
>=20
>      Pre-association Phase - The period of time during which an FE
>      Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are determining
>      whether an FE and a CE should be part of the same=20
> network element.
>      It is possible for some elements of the NE to be in=20
> pre-association=20
> phase
>      while other elements are in the post-association phase.
>=20
> - section 3
>=20
>      There is no
>      defined role for FE Manager and CE Manager in post-association
>      phase, thus these logical components are not considered=20
> part of the
>      ForCES NE.
>=20
> I think this is misleading for the same reason given above.  The idea=20
> of pre and post association belongs to the 2 elements and not=20
> to the NE=20
> at large.  A dynamic system may have elements in=20
> pre-association as it=20
> has elements in post-association.  I recommend dropping the sentence.
>=20

Good point. I like the idea of tieing pre- and post- association phase =
with individual CE/FE but not NE. It is conceptually more accurate.

>=20
> - section 3.2
>=20
>      Instead, FEs
>      accept commands from any CE authorized to control them, and it is
>      up to the CEs to coordinate among themselves to achieve=20
> redundancy,
>      load sharing or distributed control.
>=20
> I am assuming that the FE accepts commands on a first come=20
> first served=20
> basis.  If so, this should probably be said.  If not, then=20
> the possible=20
> existence of a prioritization scheme should be mentioned.

I would argue that such semantic details belong to the protocol, not =
framework.=20

>=20
> -section 4.1 Pre-association phase
>=20
>      Pre-association phase is the period of time during which an FE
>      Manager and a CE Manager are determining which FE and CE=20
> should be
>      part of the same network element.
>=20
> Same comments as made above for the definition of the pre-association=20
> phase.
>=20
> - section 4.1.1
>=20
> this section reflects the same notion that the pre-association phase=20
> occurs at a singular moment of time in the system.
>=20
>      the CE
>      and FE managers communicate to determine which CEs and FEs should
>      communicate with each other.
>=20
> suggest:
>=20
>      the CE and FE managers communicate to determine whether
>      an individual CE and FE, or a set of CEs and FEs, should be=20
> associated.
>=20
> - section 4.2.2 - message exchange diagram
>=20
> I think that since the delivery of inter-FE toplogy is optional, the=20
> diagram should indicate this.

I would just delete the inter-FE topology messages here, since what we =
show is just a conceptual example.=20

>=20
> - section 4.2.2.
>=20
>     Once FE starts
>     accepting packets for processing, we say the association=20
> of this FE
>     with its CE is now established.
>=20
> This may be a pedantic point, but I would think that the the=20
> association needs to be established before the process of accepting=20
> packets for forwarding occurs.
>=20
> Suggest:
>=20
>     Once the necessary exchange of initial information is exchanged,
>     the process of association can be completed.  Processing packets
>     for forwarding cannot begin until association is established.
>=20
>=20
> - section 4.2.4
>=20
> I think the language  in:
>=20
>      In light of the fact that the ForCES protocol is responsible for
>      transporting both the control messages and the data=20
> packets between
>      the CE and FE over Fp reference point, it is possible to=20
> use either
>      a single protocol or multiple protocols to achieve this.
>=20
> can be confusing.  Several times in the document 'protocol'=20
> is used to=20
> refer both to the ForCES Protocol and to the possible protocols that=20
> might comprise the ForCES protocol.  I know what is meant here, but=20
> everytime I read it, I need to stop and think. Perhaps some=20
> convention=20
> of either capitalizing the 'protocol' in ForCES Protocol or=20
> using some=20
> difficult phrase like component protocol will help with the=20
> differentiation.

Yeah, I will clean up the language.

>=20
> - section 4.2.5
>=20
>      In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g.,=20
> due to the
>      lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol directly, a
>      proxy FE can be used in the middle of Fp reference point.  This
>      allows the CE communicate to the physical FE via the=20
> proxy by using
>      ForCES, while the proxy manipulates the physical FE using some
>      intermediary form of communication (e.g., a non-ForCES=20
> protocol or
>      DMA).  In such an implementation, the combination of the=20
> proxy and
>      the physical FE becomes one logical FE entity.
>=20
> I think that the Fp terminates at the proxy as opposed to the proxy=20
> being at a midpoint.  This is reinforced by the following=20
> sentence that=20
> declares that proxy + non forCES FE comprises the FE.

Yes. I will fix that.

>=20
> Question:  is ther a one to one mapping between FE and=20
> proxies.  Could=20
> a Proxy serve several non ForCES FEs and would they be seen=20
> as a single=20
> FE by the CE.  I think so, but I am not sure.

Yes. I will add a sentence to that effect.

>=20
> - section 4.3.1
>=20
> This only pertains when the entire CE set falls.  If an individual CE=20
> falls then the circumstance may be different.

You are right. Will mention this.

>=20


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On l=F6rdag, jan 10, 2004, at 10:14 Asia/Seoul, Yang, Lily L wrote:

>>
>> - section 3.2
>>
>>      Instead, FEs
>>      accept commands from any CE authorized to control them, and it =
is
>>      up to the CEs to coordinate among themselves to achieve
>> redundancy,
>>      load sharing or distributed control.
>>
>> I am assuming that the FE accepts commands on a first come
>> first served
>> basis.  If so, this should probably be said.  If not, then
>> the possible
>> existence of a prioritization scheme should be mentioned.
>
> I would argue that such semantic details belong to the protocol, not=20=

> framework.

Well while the specific behavior and they way it is negotiated if there=20=

is an option would be a protocol issue, I think it might be appropriate=20=

for the framework to assume a default behavior.  And if more behaviors=20=

are possible then a negotiation of behavior pattern is probably in=20
order.

I think this is a more a negotiated (if there are option - and I think=20=

there will be) behavioral pattern then a semantic issue.

a.


From owner-forces@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM  Sun Jan 11 21:35:48 2004
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Comments: To: avri@acm.org
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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I suppose at the minimum we can mention the default behavior=20
(first come first served) in the framework.=20
One exception is command bundling, meaning all or nothing.=20

By prioritization, did you mean prioritization between the control msg =
and data packets, or prioritization among the control msgs? The former =
is most likely needed, but I am not so sure about the latter. Maybe the =
protocol people can comment on this what is the current thinking on =
this?

-----Original Message-----
From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation =
[mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of avri@acm.org
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 4:56 PM
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: Comments on framework-12

On l=F6rdag, jan 10, 2004, at 10:14 Asia/Seoul, Yang, Lily L wrote:

>>
>> - section 3.2
>>
>>      Instead, FEs
>>      accept commands from any CE authorized to control them, and it =
is
>>      up to the CEs to coordinate among themselves to achieve
>> redundancy,
>>      load sharing or distributed control.
>>
>> I am assuming that the FE accepts commands on a first come
>> first served
>> basis.  If so, this should probably be said.  If not, then
>> the possible
>> existence of a prioritization scheme should be mentioned.
>
> I would argue that such semantic details belong to the protocol, not=20
> framework.

Well while the specific behavior and they way it is negotiated if there=20
is an option would be a protocol issue, I think it might be appropriate=20
for the framework to assume a default behavior.  And if more behaviors=20
are possible then a negotiation of behavior pattern is probably in=20
order.

I think this is a more a negotiated (if there are option - and I think=20
there will be) behavioral pattern then a semantic issue.

a.


From owner-forces@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM  Sun Jan 11 22:35:25 2004
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On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 21:26, Yang, Lily L wrote:
> I suppose at the minimum we can mention the default behavior
> (first come first served) in the framework.

Unfortunatly that would be defining one way to do it.
Another scheme is to make it totaly tranparent for the FE.
In other words if the FE got the illusion it was receiving
commands from a single CE, then the goal is also achieved.
So i would have to go with your former assertion that this is
a protocol semantic issue.

> One exception is command bundling, meaning all or nothing.
>
> By prioritization, did you mean prioritization between the
> control msg and data packets, or prioritization among the control msgs?
> The former is most likely needed, but I am not so sure about the latter.
>  Maybe the protocol people can comment on this what is the current thinking
>  on this?
>

I believe she meant that in a scheme where the FE is aware of the
multiple CEs controlling say the same LFB, then something would
have to be built into the protocol to prioritize which of the
multiple CEs (controling an LFB) should take precedence when they issue
conflicting commands.
Given that this is not the only mechanism possible, i would suggest we
leave the details out or talk about both known possibilities of
operation.

cheers,
jamal


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On m=E5ndag, jan 12, 2004, at 12:28 Asia/Seoul, Jamal Hadi Salim wrote:

> On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 21:26, Yang, Lily L wrote:
>> I suppose at the minimum we can mention the default behavior
>> (first come first served) in the framework.
>
> Unfortunatly that would be defining one way to do it.
> Another scheme is to make it totaly tranparent for the FE.
> In other words if the FE got the illusion it was receiving
> commands from a single CE, then the goal is also achieved.
> So i would have to go with your former assertion that this is
> a protocol semantic issue.

I am not looking to define what the relation should be, though i did=20
assume a default behavior.

What I am looking for is that we acknowledge that if there is more then=20=

one behavior then the framework should indicate that  there needs to be=20=

exchange between the CE and FE about the behavior to be applied.

I also think it reasonable that there be a default behavior established=20=

in the Framework, and that then the semantics of the protocol can=20
include a method for negotiation of a different behavior.

As for how a 'first come first served' was done, i don't think it makes=20=

a great deal of difference.  =46rom the FE.  perspective.  Whether there=20=

is a Unified CE or many cooperating CEs sending the FE still processes=20=

first come first served.

>
>> One exception is command bundling, meaning all or nothing.
>>
>> By prioritization, did you mean prioritization between the
>> control msg and data packets, or prioritization among the control=20
>> msgs?
>> The former is most likely needed, but I am not so sure about the=20
>> latter.
>>  Maybe the protocol people can comment on this what is the current=20
>> thinking
>>  on this?
>>
>
> I believe she meant that in a scheme where the FE is aware of the
> multiple CEs controlling say the same LFB, then something would
> have to be built into the protocol to prioritize which of the
> multiple CEs (controling an LFB) should take precedence when they =
issue
> conflicting commands.
> Given that this is not the only mechanism possible, i would suggest we
> leave the details out or talk about both known possibilities of
> operation.

Or just talk about the fact that this needs to be established soon=20
after an association is established.

I also think we have to determine if this is a system wide behavior,=20
i.e. all FEs in the NE behave in the same manner for each instance of=20
an established NE (being an NE with at least one established CE-FE=20
association) or whether it is specific to each CE-FE association or,=20
something I had not thought of, specific to a single LFB.

a.=


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Comments: To: hadi@znyx.com
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Jamal --
See my comments below in line starting with [lily]. I also have further
questions for the last two comments. I would appreciate it if you can
elaborate.

Thanks for taking the time to review the document in full.
Lily

-----Original Message-----
From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
[mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 12:01 PM
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: ForCES Framework Last Call for Comments (was: ForCES
framework: summary of comments from Russ Housley and authors' respond)

Lily et al,

I think this draft is ready. The only issue i have is on section 8.
Could you move section 8.2.1 and make it section 8.1 ?
I think that it makes more sense to talk about NE security admin/config
right at the beggining of section 8 so you can set context for the rest
of the text. You can still point to the DoS concerns at that section as
you do now if you want.

[Lily]: I still prefer the current order because it flows better. 8.1 is
about threats, and 8.2 is about the solution at high level. So moving
8.2.1 in front of threats do not flow naturally.=20

Other comments:
- Section 2:
I think the term "vendor" (which leaves a marketing after taste) should
really be replaced with "implementor".

[Lily] Ok. I personally have no problem with either, generally speaking.
So I tried replacing all the "vendors" with "implementers" but it reads
kind of weird in the context. So I changed back.=20

- General section 3:
 and the Fx references; it may be a good idea to introduce the meaning
of each "x". I noticed that the "p" is introduced
later on in section 4.2

[Lily] Good idea. I will do that.

- section 3.2 and the Fi ref point:
I dont understand why a virtualized FE should be treated any different
from a non-virtualized one. You seem to imply there may be some need for
tricks to be played during pre-association phase.
Additionaly that section seems to be focussed more on the Fp than Fi
reference.

[Lily] First of all, if one PFE is partitioned into several logical FEs,
it should happen before post-association (so pre-association). Now it
may even impact post-association phase if the resource changes
dynamically. There has been some discussion and comments on this from
both IESG and the list (most notably Avri). I think the current draft
addressed the issue better now thanks to these comments.

- section 4.3, last paragraph:
An NE can not in post-association phase; the relation between a CE and
FE may be. You may wanna find another term to describe what you are
implying - example "operational" may be a good fit.

[Lily] You are absolutely right here. Avri made the similar comment. I
will fix this particular paragraph.

- section 4.3.1 and 4.3.2:
Both seem to be really focussed on routing restarts and OSPF in
particular. I think those should be good examples; however, forces would
be dealing with more than just forwarding tables; almost every LFB
will have state tables syncronized between CE-FE which in my opinion
could use graceful restarts.

[Lily] I think that is a reasonable point. I did try to include all the
notable references that are using graceful restart (OSPF, BGP and MPLS)
but these are all routing-focused. My problem is that I am not aware of
any other non-forwarding services using graceful restart. So if you have
references I would love to hear about them. I like what you propose, but
I do want to use examples that are in current practice today.=20

- section 5.1:
Nitpick: Is it true that you need at least two interfaces to do
routing? What would stop you from doing routing (changing NH paths)
with a single interface?

[Lily] We meant two logical interfaces. It could be just one physical
interface. This is consistent with RFC1814.

- section 5.7:
I think it should also be noted that the FE may not run SNMP.
The assumption with agentX is that both FE and CE run SNMP.

[Lily] That is not what I understand. According to RFC2741:
"Within the SNMP framework, a managed node contains a processing
   entity, called an agent, which has access to management information.
   Within the AgentX framework, an agent is further defined to consist
   of:
      -  a single processing entity called the master agent, which sends
         and receives SNMP protocol messages in an agent role (as
         specified by the SNMP framework documents) but typically has
         little or no direct access to management information.
      -  zero or more processing entities called subagents, which are
         "shielded" from the SNMP protocol messages processed by the
         master agent, but which have access to management information."
Therefore, the FE does NOT run SNMP. That is the whole point. AgentX is
run between CE and FE so that CE can run SNMP to collect MIB info from
FE.=20


- section 8.1.4:
" A malicious node can take over
  as CE-B if such trusted relationship is not established during the
  fail-over."
should really read:
" A malicious node can take over
    as CE-B if such trusted relationship has not been established prior
or during the fail-over. "

[Lily] agree. Will take your suggestion.=20

- section 8.1.8:
I have never heard of congestion control algorithms as a solution to a
DoS. I would suggest a backing of this via citing of some work or
removing it as an example.

[Lily]It should be removed.

- section 8.2 in general
Would it be useful to cite RFC 3631 in general?

[Lily]That is a good reference for this section.

- Section 8.2.2:
Steps 1-6; those could happen between a FEM and CEM as well.
The FE could then be informed by the FEM. If no, why not? If yes, could
we add text to that effect?

[Lily] I don't quite follow here. Since ForCES does not control what
happens between FEM and CEM, it does not even care whether there is any
relationship between FEM and CEM at all, we don't want to depend on the
trust relationship between FEM and CEM for ForCES security, do we?

- section 8.2.3
I think i am missing something, but why would replay protection be
impossible if you have CEM-FEM communication and say FEM-FE
communication being trusted?

[lily] same comment as above.


Overall, i think section 8 is highly improved and very good.

cheers,
jamal


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I think the mechanism or algorithm of how CEs distribute messages to the FEs

is better left to the implemented policy in effect in the NE.  Definitely it
could be
first-come-first-serve, but if you are running in load shared mode, some
algorithm
should be in place to spread the traffic amongst the FEs.  Is it 50-50
loading, 20-80,..
it just depends on the policy active on the NE.

Regards,
Alex.

"Yang, Lily L" wrote:

> I received these comments from Avri on the framework...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: avri [mailto:avri@psg.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 12:59 AM
> To: Yang, Lily L
> Subject: Comments on framework-12
>
> Hi,
>
> I know this is very late, but decided to reread the whole document as
> opposed to just the changes.   Apologies.  I am just getting deeply
> involved in a ForCES project so I am rereading everything with fresh
> eyes.
>
> - Definitions
>
>      Pre-association Phase - The period of time during which an FE
>      Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are determining
>      which FE and CE should be part of the same network element.
>
> As I have mentioned in other posting, this phase is likely to last long
> into the post-association phase.  I think it might be better to cast
> the definition in terms of a single CE-FE association.
>
> Suggestion:
>
>      Pre-association Phase - The period of time during which an FE
>      Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are determining
>      whether an FE and a CE should be part of the same network element.
>      It is possible for some elements of the NE to be in pre-association
> phase
>      while other elements are in the post-association phase.
>
> - section 3
>
>      There is no
>      defined role for FE Manager and CE Manager in post-association
>      phase, thus these logical components are not considered part of the
>      ForCES NE.
>
> I think this is misleading for the same reason given above.  The idea
> of pre and post association belongs to the 2 elements and not to the NE
> at large.  A dynamic system may have elements in pre-association as it
> has elements in post-association.  I recommend dropping the sentence.
>
> - section 3.2
>
>      Instead, FEs
>      accept commands from any CE authorized to control them, and it is
>      up to the CEs to coordinate among themselves to achieve redundancy,
>      load sharing or distributed control.
>
> I am assuming that the FE accepts commands on a first come first served
> basis.  If so, this should probably be said.  If not, then the possible
> existence of a prioritization scheme should be mentioned.
>
> -section 4.1 Pre-association phase
>
>      Pre-association phase is the period of time during which an FE
>      Manager and a CE Manager are determining which FE and CE should be
>      part of the same network element.
>
> Same comments as made above for the definition of the pre-association
> phase.
>
> - section 4.1.1
>
> this section reflects the same notion that the pre-association phase
> occurs at a singular moment of time in the system.
>
>      the CE
>      and FE managers communicate to determine which CEs and FEs should
>      communicate with each other.
>
> suggest:
>
>      the CE and FE managers communicate to determine whether
>      an individual CE and FE, or a set of CEs and FEs, should be
> associated.
>
> - section 4.2.2 - message exchange diagram
>
> I think that since the delivery of inter-FE toplogy is optional, the
> diagram should indicate this.
>
> - section 4.2.2.
>
>     Once FE starts
>     accepting packets for processing, we say the association of this FE
>     with its CE is now established.
>
> This may be a pedantic point, but I would think that the the
> association needs to be established before the process of accepting
> packets for forwarding occurs.
>
> Suggest:
>
>     Once the necessary exchange of initial information is exchanged,
>     the process of association can be completed.  Processing packets
>     for forwarding cannot begin until association is established.
>
> - section 4.2.4
>
> I think the language  in:
>
>      In light of the fact that the ForCES protocol is responsible for
>      transporting both the control messages and the data packets between
>      the CE and FE over Fp reference point, it is possible to use either
>      a single protocol or multiple protocols to achieve this.
>
> can be confusing.  Several times in the document 'protocol' is used to
> refer both to the ForCES Protocol and to the possible protocols that
> might comprise the ForCES protocol.  I know what is meant here, but
> everytime I read it, I need to stop and think. Perhaps some convention
> of either capitalizing the 'protocol' in ForCES Protocol or using some
> difficult phrase like component protocol will help with the
> differentiation.
>
> - section 4.2.5
>
>      In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to the
>      lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol directly, a
>      proxy FE can be used in the middle of Fp reference point.  This
>      allows the CE communicate to the physical FE via the proxy by using
>      ForCES, while the proxy manipulates the physical FE using some
>      intermediary form of communication (e.g., a non-ForCES protocol or
>      DMA).  In such an implementation, the combination of the proxy and
>      the physical FE becomes one logical FE entity.
>
> I think that the Fp terminates at the proxy as opposed to the proxy
> being at a midpoint.  This is reinforced by the following sentence that
> declares that proxy + non forCES FE comprises the FE.
>
> Question:  is ther a one to one mapping between FE and proxies.  Could
> a Proxy serve several non ForCES FEs and would they be seen as a single
> FE by the CE.  I think so, but I am not sure.
>
> - section 4.3.1
>
> This only pertains when the entire CE set falls.  If an individual CE
> falls then the circumstance may be different.


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I am hesitant to start enumerating different possible ways to do load =
sharing or whatever the multiple CEs set out to do in this document. =
Because it is a complex issue with many possible ways to do it (by =
FEM/CEM, or CE-CE protocol negotiation, or CE-FE negotiation) and from =
the discussion here I don't think we've thought through them yet. I =
would propose that we stay at the high level by stating simply that some =
kind of mechanisms should be provided to maintain coherent command of =
FEs (For example, first come first serve could be the default behavior =
while other behaviors might be negotiated through the protocol).

Do people feel that is sufficient? You are welcome to propose the text =
for this.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
> [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 7:14 AM
> To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: Comments on framework-12
>=20
>=20
> On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 23:24, avri@acm.org wrote:
> > On m=E5ndag, jan 12, 2004, at 12:28 Asia/Seoul, Jamal Hadi=20
> Salim wrote:
> >
> >=20
> > What I am looking for is that we acknowledge that if there=20
> is more then=20
> > one behavior then the framework should indicate that  there=20
> needs to be=20
> > exchange between the CE and FE about the behavior to be applied.
> >=20
>=20
> I agree it is a good idea to describe the possible ways to achieve the
> end goal since the protocol talks only about requiring=20
> mechanisms to be
> provided.=20
> What you refer to above will be needed if the scheme is not=20
> transparent
> to the FE (which is achievable if you use a multicast or=20
> broadcast wire).
> In the couple of non-transparent schemes i could think of,
> the FE will have to be involved in migrations and may need to be
> explicitly told to do so.=20
>=20
> > I also think it reasonable that there be a default behavior=20
> established=20
> > in the Framework, and that then the semantics of the protocol can=20
> > include a method for negotiation of a different behavior.
> >=20
>=20
> If you assumed the non-transparent scheme then it will be fair to make
> such a default specification.
>=20
> Could we instead of having it as part of the protocol have=20
> this be left=20
> to xEM (x=3D F or C)interface? I am just worried about=20
> christmas treeing.
> That doesnt mean it shouldnt be in the draft.
>=20
>=20
> cheers,
> jamal
>=20
>=20


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Reply-To: "Yang, Lily L" <lily.l.yang@intel.com>
Sender: Forwarding and Control Element Separation              <FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: "Yang, Lily L" <lily.l.yang@intel.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on framework-12
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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I am working on the next revision for framework to incorporate all the =
comments. So please let me know if you have further comments by =
tomorrow.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
> [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf Of Yang, Lily L
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:20 AM
> To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: Comments on framework-12
>=20
>=20
> I am hesitant to start enumerating different possible ways to=20
> do load sharing or whatever the multiple CEs set out to do in=20
> this document. Because it is a complex issue with many=20
> possible ways to do it (by FEM/CEM, or CE-CE protocol=20
> negotiation, or CE-FE negotiation) and from the discussion=20
> here I don't think we've thought through them yet. I would=20
> propose that we stay at the high level by stating simply that=20
> some kind of mechanisms should be provided to maintain=20
> coherent command of FEs (For example, first come first serve=20
> could be the default behavior while other behaviors might be=20
> negotiated through the protocol).
>=20
> Do people feel that is sufficient? You are welcome to propose=20
> the text for this.
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
> > [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim
> > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 7:14 AM
> > To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> > Subject: Re: Comments on framework-12
> >=20
> >=20
> > On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 23:24, avri@acm.org wrote:
> > > On m=E5ndag, jan 12, 2004, at 12:28 Asia/Seoul, Jamal Hadi=20
> > Salim wrote:
> > >
> > >=20
> > > What I am looking for is that we acknowledge that if there=20
> > is more then=20
> > > one behavior then the framework should indicate that  there=20
> > needs to be=20
> > > exchange between the CE and FE about the behavior to be applied.
> > >=20
> >=20
> > I agree it is a good idea to describe the possible ways to=20
> achieve the
> > end goal since the protocol talks only about requiring=20
> > mechanisms to be
> > provided.=20
> > What you refer to above will be needed if the scheme is not=20
> > transparent
> > to the FE (which is achievable if you use a multicast or=20
> > broadcast wire).
> > In the couple of non-transparent schemes i could think of,
> > the FE will have to be involved in migrations and may need to be
> > explicitly told to do so.=20
> >=20
> > > I also think it reasonable that there be a default behavior=20
> > established=20
> > > in the Framework, and that then the semantics of the protocol can=20
> > > include a method for negotiation of a different behavior.
> > >=20
> >=20
> > If you assumed the non-transparent scheme then it will be=20
> fair to make
> > such a default specification.
> >=20
> > Could we instead of having it as part of the protocol have=20
> > this be left=20
> > to xEM (x=3D F or C)interface? I am just worried about=20
> > christmas treeing.
> > That doesnt mean it shouldnt be in the draft.
> >=20
> >=20
> > cheers,
> > jamal
> >=20
> >=20
>=20


From owner-forces@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM  Mon Jan 12 19:48:07 2004
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On tisdag, jan 13, 2004, at 07:20 Asia/Seoul, Yang, Lily L wrote:

>> I am hesitant to start enumerating different possible ways to
>> do load sharing or whatever the multiple CEs set out to do in
>> this document. Because it is a complex issue with many
>> possible ways to do it (by FEM/CEM, or CE-CE protocol
>> negotiation, or CE-FE negotiation) and from the discussion
>> here I don't think we've thought through them yet. I would
>> propose that we stay at the high level by stating simply that
>> some kind of mechanisms should be provided to maintain
>> coherent command of FEs (For example, first come first serve
>> could be the default behavior while other behaviors might be
>> negotiated through the protocol).
>>
>> Do people feel that is sufficient? You are welcome to propose
>> the text for this.
>>


I think it is important that the way in which the FE will process
commands be determinate.  I agree that there are many schemes for
setting up such a determination and that there is no reason to go down
that rat hole (or is it up that christmas tree) at this point in this
document, but there I believe there should be a presumption of a known
state in case a protocol, either by design, by implementation or by
use, does not specify any particular prioritization scheme.

I also think this task is better handled by the ForCES protocol then by
the manager protocols as it is the CE that must be able to predict the
behavior, and thus the state, of the FE and it is also possible that
the CE might change the rules midstream, e.g. if load sharing were to
start  up at some time, long after the initial association was formed,
when a new CE comes on line.  That is not to say that the xEM can't
have configured something in advance, but then I would think it would
still be responsibility of the ForCES protocol to determine the method
being used (i.e. how can the CE be assured that the FEM has effected
the same state in the FE that the CEM has told the CE about as there is
no presumption of xEM coordination?).

I suggest the following wording:

- to section 3.2

      Instead, FEs
      accept commands from any CE authorized to control them, and it is
      up to the CEs to coordinate among themselves to achieve redundancy,
      load sharing or distributed control.

- add

Unless otherwise configured or determined by a ForCEs protocol
exchange, each FE will process authorized  incoming commands directed
at it as it receives them on a first come first serve basis.

a.


From owner-forces@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM  Mon Jan 12 21:40:12 2004
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Subject: Re: ForCES Framework Last Call for Comments (was: ForCES framework: summary of comments from Russ Housley and authors' respond)
Comments: To: "Yang, Lily L" <lily.l.yang@intel.com>
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Lilly,

On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 12:22, Yang, Lily L wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
> [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim
> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 12:01 PM
> To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: ForCES Framework Last Call for Comments (was: ForCES
> framework: summary of comments from Russ Housley and authors' respond)
>
> Lily et al,
>
> I think this draft is ready. The only issue i have is on section 8.
> Could you move section 8.2.1 and make it section 8.1 ?
> I think that it makes more sense to talk about NE security admin/config
> right at the beggining of section 8 so you can set context for the rest
> of the text. You can still point to the DoS concerns at that section as
> you do now if you want.
>
> [Lily]: I still prefer the current order because it flows better. 8.1 is
> about threats, and 8.2 is about the solution at high level. So moving
> 8.2.1 in front of threats do not flow naturally.
>

I read 8.2.1 as being more about a desired end goal of the admin;
example it talks about need to "assess the  security needs of the
ForCES-enabled network elements under different deployment scenarios"
etc.
It talks more about threats than solutions actually; the text does seem
fit for introductory material IMO.
BTW, you mention that TLS requires reliable protocols; i thought the
requirement was for a connection oriented protocol which doesnt
necessarily equate to a reliable one.

> Other comments:
> - Section 2:
> I think the term "vendor" (which leaves a marketing after taste) should
> really be replaced with "implementor".
>
> [Lily] Ok. I personally have no problem with either, generally speaking.
> So I tried replacing all the "vendors" with "implementers" but it reads
> kind of weird in the context. So I changed back.
>

Rereading: implementors is not a good replacement for vendor when
you talk about hardware eg when you mention blades. The other spots are
a good substitute word. I am indifferent - your call.

> - section 3.2 and the Fi ref point:
> I dont understand why a virtualized FE should be treated any different
> from a non-virtualized one. You seem to imply there may be some need for
> tricks to be played during pre-association phase.
> Additionaly that section seems to be focussed more on the Fp than Fi
> reference.
>
> [Lily] First of all, if one PFE is partitioned into several logical FEs,
> it should happen before post-association (so pre-association). Now it
> may even impact post-association phase if the resource changes
> dynamically. There has been some discussion and comments on this from
> both IESG and the list (most notably Avri). I think the current draft
> addressed the issue better now thanks to these comments.
>

Ok, the first pass didnt make sense; so maybe a little word smithing:

" If FE virtualization occurs only in the pre-association phase, it has
    no impact on ForCES. However, if FE virtualization results in
    dynamic resource change on FE during post-association phase, the FE
    model needs to be able to report such capability and the ForCES
    protocol needs to be able to inform the CE of such change via
    asynchronous messages (see [3], Section 5, requirement #6).
"

to:

" If the FE partitioning occurs in the pre-association phase, it has
  no impact on ForCES and each virtual FE will be treated as a standard
  PFE would be. However, if new FE virtualization results in
  resource changes taken from an existing FE (already participating in
  ForCES post-association phase) and then the the ForCES
  protocol needs to be able to inform the CE of such change via
  asynchronous messages (see [3], Section 5, requirement #6).
"


>
> - section 4.3.1 and 4.3.2:
> Both seem to be really focussed on routing restarts and OSPF in
> particular. I think those should be good examples; however, forces would
> be dealing with more than just forwarding tables; almost every LFB
> will have state tables syncronized between CE-FE which in my opinion
> could use graceful restarts.
>
> [Lily] I think that is a reasonable point. I did try to include all the
> notable references that are using graceful restart (OSPF, BGP and MPLS)
> but these are all routing-focused. My problem is that I am not aware of
> any other non-forwarding services using graceful restart. So if you have
> references I would love to hear about them. I like what you propose, but
> I do want to use examples that are in current practice today.
>

I dont think you need to provide references for other (currently
non-existent) stuff - what you need to do is emphasize that the desire
for such mechanisms is to make sure a graceful restart happens.
Graceful restarts typically includes some protocol state stored in a
table.
That doesnt limit it to just OSPF or BGP or MPLS.


> - section 5.7:
> I think it should also be noted that the FE may not run SNMP.
> The assumption with agentX is that both FE and CE run SNMP.
>
> [Lily] That is not what I understand. According to RFC2741:
> "Within the SNMP framework, a managed node contains a processing
>    entity, called an agent, which has access to management information.
>    Within the AgentX framework, an agent is further defined to consist
>    of:
>       -  a single processing entity called the master agent, which sends
>          and receives SNMP protocol messages in an agent role (as
>          specified by the SNMP framework documents) but typically has
>          little or no direct access to management information.
>       -  zero or more processing entities called subagents, which are
>          "shielded" from the SNMP protocol messages processed by the
>          master agent, but which have access to management information."
> Therefore, the FE does NOT run SNMP. That is the whole point. AgentX is
> run between CE and FE so that CE can run SNMP to collect MIB info from
> FE.
>

Ok, I stand corrected.


> - Section 8.2.2:
> Steps 1-6; those could happen between a FEM and CEM as well.
> The FE could then be informed by the FEM. If no, why not? If yes, could
> we add text to that effect?
>
> [Lily] I don't quite follow here. Since ForCES does not control what
> happens between FEM and CEM, it does not even care whether there is any
> relationship between FEM and CEM at all, we don't want to depend on the
> trust relationship between FEM and CEM for ForCES security, do we?
>


FEM-CEM is a configuration plane if such a thing exists.
i.e it could be a simple config file or a daemon that is continously
running. I would say you have to trust your (initial bootstraping)
config. Since 1-6 could be looked at as config, i was wondering if
this could be between CEM-FEM.

> - section 8.2.3
> I think i am missing something, but why would replay protection be
> impossible if you have CEM-FEM communication and say FEM-FE
> communication being trusted?
>
> [lily] same comment as above.
>

I wasnt sure why replay protection would be an issue in this case. I am
not knowledgeable in this area so i may be missing something.

cheers,
jamal


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This sounds reasonable. Thanks, Avri.
Anybody has any other comments on framework? I would like to wrap up =
this revision soon and send back to IESG.=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
[mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf Of avri@acm.org
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 4:45 PM
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: Comments on framework-12


On tisdag, jan 13, 2004, at 07:20 Asia/Seoul, Yang, Lily L wrote:

>> I am hesitant to start enumerating different possible ways to
>> do load sharing or whatever the multiple CEs set out to do in
>> this document. Because it is a complex issue with many
>> possible ways to do it (by FEM/CEM, or CE-CE protocol
>> negotiation, or CE-FE negotiation) and from the discussion
>> here I don't think we've thought through them yet. I would
>> propose that we stay at the high level by stating simply that
>> some kind of mechanisms should be provided to maintain
>> coherent command of FEs (For example, first come first serve
>> could be the default behavior while other behaviors might be
>> negotiated through the protocol).
>>
>> Do people feel that is sufficient? You are welcome to propose
>> the text for this.
>>


I think it is important that the way in which the FE will process
commands be determinate.  I agree that there are many schemes for
setting up such a determination and that there is no reason to go down
that rat hole (or is it up that christmas tree) at this point in this
document, but there I believe there should be a presumption of a known
state in case a protocol, either by design, by implementation or by
use, does not specify any particular prioritization scheme.

I also think this task is better handled by the ForCES protocol then by
the manager protocols as it is the CE that must be able to predict the
behavior, and thus the state, of the FE and it is also possible that
the CE might change the rules midstream, e.g. if load sharing were to
start  up at some time, long after the initial association was formed,
when a new CE comes on line.  That is not to say that the xEM can't
have configured something in advance, but then I would think it would
still be responsibility of the ForCES protocol to determine the method
being used (i.e. how can the CE be assured that the FEM has effected
the same state in the FE that the CEM has told the CE about as there is
no presumption of xEM coordination?).

I suggest the following wording:

- to section 3.2

      Instead, FEs
      accept commands from any CE authorized to control them, and it is
      up to the CEs to coordinate among themselves to achieve =
redundancy,
      load sharing or distributed control.

- add

Unless otherwise configured or determined by a ForCEs protocol
exchange, each FE will process authorized  incoming commands directed
at it as it receives them on a first come first serve basis.

a.


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Comments: To: hadi@znyx.com
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jamal Hadi Salim [mailto:hadi@znyx.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 6:37 PM
> To: Yang, Lily L
> Cc: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: ForCES Framework Last Call for Comments (was:
> ForCESframework: summary of comments from Russ Housley and authors'
> respond)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I read 8.2.1 as being more about a desired end goal of the admin;
> example it talks about need to "assess the  security needs of the
> ForCES-enabled network elements under different deployment scenarios"
> etc.
> It talks more about threats than solutions actually; the text=20
> does seem
> fit for introductory material IMO.

I pulled that paragraph in now to the very beginning of Section 8. Well, =
I actually like it now after reading it several times :-)

> BTW, you mention that TLS requires reliable protocols; i thought the
> requirement was for a connection oriented protocol which doesnt
> necessarily equate to a reliable one.
>
Quote from RFC 2246:=20
"The (TLS) protocol is
   composed of two layers: the TLS Record Protocol and the TLS Handshake
   Protocol. At the lowest level, layered on top of some *reliable*
   transport protocol (e.g., TCP[TCP]), is the TLS Record Protocol."
=20
>=20
> " If the FE partitioning occurs in the pre-association phase, it has=20
>   no impact on ForCES and each virtual FE will be treated as=20
> a standard=20
>   PFE would be. However, if new FE virtualization results in=20
>   resource changes taken from an existing FE (already=20
> participating in=20
>   ForCES post-association phase) and then the the ForCES=20
>   protocol needs to be able to inform the CE of such change via=20
>   asynchronous messages (see [3], Section 5, requirement #6).=20
> "
>=20

Ok. I will take that.

=20
> I dont think you need to provide references for other (currently
> non-existent) stuff - what you need to do is emphasize that the desire
> for such mechanisms is to make sure a graceful restart happens.
> Graceful restarts typically includes some protocol state stored in a
> table.
> That doesnt limit it to just OSPF or BGP or MPLS.

Point taken. But I believe the general concept is already conveyed in =
the text. If you can make  specific suggestion (as what text to put =
where in the section), I can consider. Otherwise, I incline to leave it =
as it is.


>=20
> FEM-CEM is a configuration plane if such a thing exists.
> i.e it could be a simple config file or a daemon that is continously
> running. I would say you have to trust your (initial bootstraping)
> config. Since 1-6 could be looked at as config, i was wondering if
> this could be between CEM-FEM.
>=20
> > - section 8.2.3
> > I think i am missing something, but why would replay protection be
> > impossible if you have CEM-FEM communication and say FEM-FE
> > communication being trusted?
> >=20
> > [lily] same comment as above.
> >=20
>=20
> I wasnt sure why replay protection would be an issue in this=20
> case. I am
> not knowledgeable in this area so i may be missing something.

What we asserted there is that manual key management is susceptible to =
replay attack, and hence automatic key mgmt is important. The ultimate =
trust we want is CE-FE. Yes, you have to trust your initial boostraping =
manager (and hence CE-CEM or FE-FEM trust relationship) but I am not =
sure about CEM-FEM that you keep mentioning. As far as I can tell, there =
might not be any communication between CEM and FEM at all. So I am still =
not sure what you are trying to say here.
=20
>=20
> cheers,
> jamal
>=20
>=20
>=20


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Comments: To: Weiming Wang <wangwm@hzcnc.com>
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That seems reasonable. Thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
[mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Weiming Wang
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 9:31 AM
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: ForCES Framework Last Call for Comments (was: ForCES
framework: summary of comments from Russ Housley and authors' respond)

Hi Lily,

=20
> - section 5.7:
> I think it should also be noted that the FE may not run SNMP.
> The assumption with agentX is that both FE and CE run SNMP.
>
> [Lily] That is not what I understand. According to RFC2741:
> "Within the SNMP framework, a managed node contains a processing
>    entity, called an agent, which has access to management
information.
>    Within the AgentX framework, an agent is further defined to consist
>    of:
>       -  a single processing entity called the master agent, which
sends
>          and receives SNMP protocol messages in an agent role (as
>          specified by the SNMP framework documents) but typically has
>          little or no direct access to management information.
>       -  zero or more processing entities called subagents, which are
>          "shielded" from the SNMP protocol messages processed by the
>          master agent, but which have access to management
information."
> Therefore, the FE does NOT run SNMP. That is the whole point. AgentX
is
> run between CE and FE so that CE can run SNMP to collect MIB info from
> FE.

Though ActiveX for FE SNMP supporting can be used,it does not
mean FEs without ActiveX supporting is precluded. And RFC3654=20
architectural requirements 14) also states that:

14)......In certain conditions (e.g., CE/FE disconnection), it may be
useful to
   allow management tools (e.g., SNMP) to be used to diagnose and repair
   problems.  The following guidelines MUST be observed:

   1. The ability for a management tool (e.g., SNMP) to be used to read
      (but not change) the state of FE SHOULD NOT be precluded.
   ......

My understanding of the requirement is that FEs SHOULD support SNMP at
the level of fetch somthing.

Therefore, I suggest to change the use of ActiveX from "recommend" to
"may use".

Sincerely,
Weiming


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On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 23:14, Yang, Lily L wrote:

> > > - section 8.2.3
> > > I think i am missing something, but why would replay protection be
> > > impossible if you have CEM-FEM communication and say FEM-FE
> > > communication being trusted?
> > >
> > > [lily] same comment as above.
> > >
> >
> > I wasnt sure why replay protection would be an issue in this
> > case. I am
> > not knowledgeable in this area so i may be missing something.
>
> What we asserted there is that manual key management is susceptible
> to replay attack, and hence automatic key mgmt is important. The
> ultimate trust we want is CE-FE. Yes, you have to trust your initial
> boostraping manager (and hence CE-CEM or FE-FEM trust relationship)
> but I am not sure about CEM-FEM that you keep mentioning. As far as
> I can tell, there might not be any communication between CEM and FEM
> at all. So I am still not sure what you are trying to say here.

Maybe an example would be useful:
Assume you have a secure channel between the CEM and FEM. Doesnt matter
whether the CE owns a key server; but that the CE is able to do key
updates to the FE via the XEM channel. Could you not simulate automatic
key management?

Dont wanna slow you down in submitting that draft - so my comments end
here.

cheers,
jamal


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Comments: To: hadi@znyx.com
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jamal Hadi Salim [mailto:hadi@znyx.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:09 AM
To: Yang, Lily L
Cc: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: ForCES Framework Last Call for Comments (was:
ForCESframework:summary of comments from Russ Housley and authors'
respond)


On Mon, 2004-01-12 at 23:14, Yang, Lily L wrote:
=20
> > > - section 8.2.3
> > > I think i am missing something, but why would replay protection be
> > > impossible if you have CEM-FEM communication and say FEM-FE
> > > communication being trusted?
> > >=20
> > > [lily] same comment as above.
> > >=20
> >=20
> > I wasnt sure why replay protection would be an issue in this=20
> > case. I am
> > not knowledgeable in this area so i may be missing something.
>=20
> What we asserted there is that manual key management is susceptible=20
> to replay attack, and hence automatic key mgmt is important. The=20
> ultimate trust we want is CE-FE. Yes, you have to trust your initial
> boostraping manager (and hence CE-CEM or FE-FEM trust relationship)
> but I am not sure about CEM-FEM that you keep mentioning. As far as
> I can tell, there might not be any communication between CEM and FEM
> at all. So I am still not sure what you are trying to say here.

Maybe an example would be useful:
Assume you have a secure channel between the CEM and FEM. Doesnt matter
whether the CE owns a key server; but that the CE is able to do key
updates to the FE via the XEM channel. Could you not simulate automatic
key management?

[Lily] Oh, now I get what you meant. I don't think we have any =
disagreement there. Your example is similar to what you describe in =
8.2.3 using Kerboros.=20

Dont wanna slow you down in submitting that draft - so my comments end
here.

[Lily] No, you are not slowing us down. It is important to get it right. =
But I do feel like we are ready to submit this as final version now.=20

cheers,
jamal


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Subject: framework v13 uploaded to IETF
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Hi, all --

This new version of framework incorporated the most recent comments from =
Avri, Jamal and others in the list. Below is a detailed log of the =
changes. There are numerous clarification and corrections, but no =
substantial change in the technical content.

This revision is uploaded to IETF and we feel ready to go RFC.=20

Lily


 <<draft-ietf-forces-framework-13.txt>>=20

-------------------------- summary of changes in v13 =
--------------------------------------------

#1) Section 1 Dfinition:
[Comment/Reason for change] To clarify that association is a per CE-FE =
concept.
[old]
        Pre-association Phase - The period of time during which an FE Manager =
(see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are determining which FE and CE =
should be part of the same network element.
           =20
[new]
        Pre-association Phase - The period of time during which an FE Manager =
(see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are determining whether an FE =
and a CE should be part of the same network element.     It is possible =
for some elements of the NE to be in pre-association=20
        phase while other elements are in the post-association phase.

#2) Section 3. Achitecture
[Comment/Reason for change] To avoid the misconception that association =
is a NE system wide concept.
[deleted]=20
        There is no defined role for FE Manager and CE Manager in =
post-association phase, thus these logical components are not considered =
part of the ForCES NE.=20

3.2 at the end of 1st paragraph:
[Comment/Reason for change] clarify the impact of FE virtualization.
[old]
        However, if FE virtualization results in dynamic resource change on FE =
during post-association phase, the FE model needs to be able to report =
such capability and the Protocol needs to be able to inform the CE of =
such change via asynchronous messages (see [3], Section 5, requirement =
#6).
[new]
        However, if FE virtualization results in resource change taken from an =
existing FE (already participating in ForCES post-association phase), =
the ForCES Protocol needs to be able to inform the CE of such change via =
asynchronous messages (see [3], Section 5, requirement #6).


#3) 3.2 at the end of the 2nd paragraph
[Comment/Reason for change] To point out the behavior issue of FE =
accepting commands from multiple CEs.
[add] Unless otherwise configured or determined by a ForCEs Protocol =
exchange,       each FE will process authorized incoming commands directed at =
it as it        receives them on a first come first serve basis. =20

#4) 4.1 Pre_association Phase
[Comment/Reason for change] same as #1)
[old]
        Pre-association phase is the period of time during which an FE Manager =
and a CE Manager are determining which FE and CE should be part of the =
same network element. =20

[new]
        Pre-association phase is the period of time during which an FE Manager =
and a CE Manager are determining whether an FE and a CE should be part =
of the same network element. =20

#5) 4.1.1 Fl Reference Point
[Comment/Reason for change] same as #1)
[old]
        CE managers and FE managers may communicate across the Fl reference =
point in the pre-association phase in order to determine which CEs and =
FEs should communicate with each other. =20
[new]
        CE managers and FE managers may communicate across the Fl reference =
point in the pre-association phase in order to determine whether an =
individual CE and FE, or a set of CEs and FEs should be associated. =20

#6) 4.2.2 Figure 9
[Comment/Reason for change] inter-FE topology exchange is optional in =
the protocol.
deleted the inter-FE topology msg exchange.
at the beginning of last paragraph:
[old]
        After the successful security handshake, the FE needs to inform the CE =
of its own capability and its topology in relation to other FEs.=20
[new]
        After the successful security handshake, the FE needs to inform the CE =
of its own capability and optionally its topology in relation to other =
FEs.=20

#7) 4.2.2: end of last paragraph:
[Comment/Reason for change] more accurate wording.
[old]
        Once FE starts accepting packets for processing, we say the association =
of this FE with its CE is now established.  From then on, the CE and FE =
enter steady-state communication.
[new]
        Once the necessary initial information is exchanged, the process of =
association is completed.  Packet processing and forwarding at the FE =
cannot begin until association is established. =20

#8) 4.2.5 FE Proxy
[Comment/Reason for change] Clarify that FE Proxy terminates ForCES =
itself.
[old]
        In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to the lack =
of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol directly, a proxy FE can =
be used to terminate the Fp reference point instead of the physical FE.  =
... It is also possible that one proxy act on behalf of multiple =
physical FEs.
[new]=20
        In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to the lack =
of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol directly, a proxy FE can =
be used to terminate the Fp reference point instead of the physical FE.  =
... It is also possible that one proxy act on behalf of multiple =
physical FEs.

#9) 4.3 Association Re-establishment
[Comment/Reason for change] same as #1).
[old]
        When an FE leaves or joins an existing NE that is already in =
post-association phase, the CE needs to be aware of the impact on FE =
topology and deals with the change accordingly.
[new]
        When an FE leaves or joins an existing NE that is already in operation, =
the CE needs to be aware of the impact on FE topology and deals with the =
change accordingly.

#9.1) Section 7 Acknowledgement (updated)

#9.5) Merged the paragraph in old section 8.2.1 to the beginning of =
section 8 as part of the introduction. Following sections readjusted =
accordingly.

#10) 8.1.4 Attack during Fail Over
[Comment/Reason for change] Better wording.
[old]
        Threat: ... A malicious node can take over as CE-B if such trusted =
relationship is not established during the fail-over.=20
[new]
        A malicious node can take over as CE-B if such trusted relationship has =
not been established prior or during the fail-over.=20

#11) 8.1.8
[Comment/Reason for change] Remove congestion control.
[old]
        Requirement: Some sort of rate limiting mechanism MUST to be in place =
at both the FE and CE.  Examples of such mechanisms include explicit =
rate limiters or congestion control algorithms.  Rate Limiter SHOULD be =
configured at the FE for each message type that are being received =
through Fi/F interface.
[new]
        Requirement: Some sort of rate limiting mechanism MUST to be in place =
at both the FE and CE.  Rate Limiter SHOULD be configured at the FE for =
each message type that are being received through Fi/F interface.

#12) Section 9/10: references
Adding one more reference for security:
        [18] S. Bellovin, J. Schiller, and C. Kaufman, "Security Mechanisms for =
the Internet", RFC 3631, December, 2003.
Updated most references to reflect the current status (RFC, or new =
revision/date)


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------_=_NextPart_001_01C3DACD.ECAB4057--


From owner-forces@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM  Wed Jan 14 19:32:05 2004
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Thread-Topic: [FORCES] framework v13 uploaded to IETF
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:30:48 -0800
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Sender: Forwarding and Control Element Separation              <FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: "Putzolu, David" <david.putzolu@intel.com>
Subject: Re: framework v13 uploaded to IETF
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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All,

This document has received good detailed review and=20
the changes made are clarifications and not major
technical changes. =20

Please review the change list (included below) and
comment before January 20 if there are any significant=20
issues with this document.

Thanks,
David


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation=20
> [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Yang, Lily L
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:41 AM
> To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: [FORCES] framework v13 uploaded to IETF
>=20
> Hi, all --
>=20
> This new version of framework incorporated the most recent=20
> comments from Avri, Jamal and others in the list. Below is a=20
> detailed log of the changes. There are numerous clarification=20
> and corrections, but no substantial change in the technical content.
>=20
> This revision is uploaded to IETF and we feel ready to go RFC.=20
>=20
> Lily
>=20
>=20
>  <<draft-ietf-forces-framework-13.txt>>=20
>=20
> -------------------------- summary of changes in v13=20
> --------------------------------------------
>=20
> #1) Section 1 Dfinition:
> [Comment/Reason for change] To clarify that association is a=20
> per CE-FE concept.
> [old]
>         Pre-association Phase - The period of time during=20
> which an FE Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below)=20
> are determining which FE and CE should be part of the same=20
> network element.
>            =20
> [new]
>         Pre-association Phase - The period of time during=20
> which an FE Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below)=20
> are determining whether an FE and a CE should be part of the=20
> same network element.     It is possible for some elements of=20
> the NE to be in pre-association=20
>         phase while other elements are in the post-association phase.
>=20
> #2) Section 3. Achitecture
> [Comment/Reason for change] To avoid the misconception that=20
> association is a NE system wide concept.
> [deleted]=20
>         There is no defined role for FE Manager and CE=20
> Manager in post-association phase, thus these logical=20
> components are not considered part of the ForCES NE.=20
>=20
> 3.2 at the end of 1st paragraph:
> [Comment/Reason for change] clarify the impact of FE virtualization.
> [old]
>         However, if FE virtualization results in dynamic=20
> resource change on FE during post-association phase, the FE=20
> model needs to be able to report such capability and the=20
> Protocol needs to be able to inform the CE of such change via=20
> asynchronous messages (see [3], Section 5, requirement #6).
> [new]
>         However, if FE virtualization results in resource=20
> change taken from an existing FE (already participating in=20
> ForCES post-association phase), the ForCES Protocol needs to=20
> be able to inform the CE of such change via asynchronous=20
> messages (see [3], Section 5, requirement #6).
>=20
>=20
> #3) 3.2 at the end of the 2nd paragraph
> [Comment/Reason for change] To point out the behavior issue=20
> of FE accepting commands from multiple CEs.
> [add] Unless otherwise configured or determined by a ForCEs=20
> Protocol exchange,       each FE will process authorized=20
> incoming commands directed at it as it        receives them=20
> on a first come first serve basis. =20
>=20
> #4) 4.1 Pre_association Phase
> [Comment/Reason for change] same as #1)
> [old]
>         Pre-association phase is the period of time during=20
> which an FE Manager and a CE Manager are determining which FE=20
> and CE should be part of the same network element. =20
>=20
> [new]
>         Pre-association phase is the period of time during=20
> which an FE Manager and a CE Manager are determining whether=20
> an FE and a CE should be part of the same network element. =20
>=20
> #5) 4.1.1 Fl Reference Point
> [Comment/Reason for change] same as #1)
> [old]
>         CE managers and FE managers may communicate across=20
> the Fl reference point in the pre-association phase in order=20
> to determine which CEs and FEs should communicate with each other. =20
> [new]
>         CE managers and FE managers may communicate across=20
> the Fl reference point in the pre-association phase in order=20
> to determine whether an individual CE and FE, or a set of CEs=20
> and FEs should be associated. =20
>=20
> #6) 4.2.2 Figure 9
> [Comment/Reason for change] inter-FE topology exchange is=20
> optional in the protocol.
> deleted the inter-FE topology msg exchange.
> at the beginning of last paragraph:
> [old]
>         After the successful security handshake, the FE needs=20
> to inform the CE of its own capability and its topology in=20
> relation to other FEs.=20
> [new]
>         After the successful security handshake, the FE needs=20
> to inform the CE of its own capability and optionally its=20
> topology in relation to other FEs.=20
>=20
> #7) 4.2.2: end of last paragraph:
> [Comment/Reason for change] more accurate wording.
> [old]
>         Once FE starts accepting packets for processing, we=20
> say the association of this FE with its CE is now=20
> established.  From then on, the CE and FE enter steady-state=20
> communication.
> [new]
>         Once the necessary initial information is exchanged,=20
> the process of association is completed.  Packet processing=20
> and forwarding at the FE cannot begin until association is=20
> established. =20
>=20
> #8) 4.2.5 FE Proxy
> [Comment/Reason for change] Clarify that FE Proxy terminates=20
> ForCES itself.
> [old]
>         In the case where a physical FE cannot implement=20
> (e.g., due to the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES=20
> protocol directly, a proxy FE can be used to terminate the Fp=20
> reference point instead of the physical FE.  ... It is also=20
> possible that one proxy act on behalf of multiple physical FEs.
> [new]=20
>         In the case where a physical FE cannot implement=20
> (e.g., due to the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES=20
> protocol directly, a proxy FE can be used to terminate the Fp=20
> reference point instead of the physical FE.  ... It is also=20
> possible that one proxy act on behalf of multiple physical FEs.
>=20
> #9) 4.3 Association Re-establishment
> [Comment/Reason for change] same as #1).
> [old]
>         When an FE leaves or joins an existing NE that is=20
> already in post-association phase, the CE needs to be aware=20
> of the impact on FE topology and deals with the change accordingly.
> [new]
>         When an FE leaves or joins an existing NE that is=20
> already in operation, the CE needs to be aware of the impact=20
> on FE topology and deals with the change accordingly.
>=20
> #9.1) Section 7 Acknowledgement (updated)
>=20
> #9.5) Merged the paragraph in old section 8.2.1 to the=20
> beginning of section 8 as part of the introduction. Following=20
> sections readjusted accordingly.
>=20
> #10) 8.1.4 Attack during Fail Over
> [Comment/Reason for change] Better wording.
> [old]
>         Threat: ... A malicious node can take over as CE-B if=20
> such trusted relationship is not established during the fail-over.=20
> [new]
>         A malicious node can take over as CE-B if such=20
> trusted relationship has not been established prior or during=20
> the fail-over.=20
>=20
> #11) 8.1.8
> [Comment/Reason for change] Remove congestion control.
> [old]
>         Requirement: Some sort of rate limiting mechanism=20
> MUST to be in place at both the FE and CE.  Examples of such=20
> mechanisms include explicit rate limiters or congestion=20
> control algorithms.  Rate Limiter SHOULD be configured at the=20
> FE for each message type that are being received through Fi/F=20
> interface.
> [new]
>         Requirement: Some sort of rate limiting mechanism=20
> MUST to be in place at both the FE and CE.  Rate Limiter=20
> SHOULD be configured at the FE for each message type that are=20
> being received through Fi/F interface.
>=20
> #12) Section 9/10: references
> Adding one more reference for security:
>         [18] S. Bellovin, J. Schiller, and C. Kaufman,=20
> "Security Mechanisms for the Internet", RFC 3631, December, 2003.
> Updated most references to reflect the current status (RFC,=20
> or new revision/date)
>=20
>=20


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Forwarding and Control Element Separation Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Forwarding and Control Element Separation (ForCES) Framework
        Author(s)       : L. Yang
        Filename        : draft-ietf-forces-framework-13.txt
        Pages           : 40
        Date            : 2004-1-15

This document defines the architectural framework for the ForCES
(Forwarding and Control Element Separation) network elements, and
identifies the associated entities and the interaction among them.

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Subject: Re: framework v13 uploaded to IETF
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Lily et al.

This looks pretty good to me for final submission.

Regards
Hormuzd

-----Original Message-----
From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
[mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Yang, Lily L
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:41 AM
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: [FORCES] framework v13 uploaded to IETF


Hi, all --

This new version of framework incorporated the most recent comments from
Avri, Jamal and others in the list. Below is a detailed log of the
changes. There are numerous clarification and corrections, but no
substantial change in the technical content.

This revision is uploaded to IETF and we feel ready to go RFC.=20

Lily


 <<draft-ietf-forces-framework-13.txt>>=20

-------------------------- summary of changes in v13
--------------------------------------------

#1) Section 1 Dfinition:
[Comment/Reason for change] To clarify that association is a per CE-FE
concept.
[old]
        Pre-association Phase - The period of time during which an FE
Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are determining which
FE and CE should be part of the same network element.
           =20
[new]
        Pre-association Phase - The period of time during which an FE
Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are determining whether
an FE and a CE should be part of the same network element.     It is
possible for some elements of the NE to be in pre-association=20
        phase while other elements are in the post-association phase.

#2) Section 3. Achitecture
[Comment/Reason for change] To avoid the misconception that association
is a NE system wide concept.
[deleted]=20
        There is no defined role for FE Manager and CE Manager in
post-association phase, thus these logical components are not considered
part of the ForCES NE.=20

3.2 at the end of 1st paragraph:
[Comment/Reason for change] clarify the impact of FE virtualization.
[old]
        However, if FE virtualization results in dynamic resource change
on FE during post-association phase, the FE model needs to be able to
report such capability and the Protocol needs to be able to inform the
CE of such change via asynchronous messages (see [3], Section 5,
requirement #6).
[new]
        However, if FE virtualization results in resource change taken
from an existing FE (already participating in ForCES post-association
phase), the ForCES Protocol needs to be able to inform the CE of such
change via asynchronous messages (see [3], Section 5, requirement #6).


#3) 3.2 at the end of the 2nd paragraph
[Comment/Reason for change] To point out the behavior issue of FE
accepting commands from multiple CEs.
[add] Unless otherwise configured or determined by a ForCEs Protocol
exchange,       each FE will process authorized incoming commands
directed at it as it        receives them on a first come first serve
basis. =20

#4) 4.1 Pre_association Phase
[Comment/Reason for change] same as #1)
[old]
        Pre-association phase is the period of time during which an FE
Manager and a CE Manager are determining which FE and CE should be part
of the same network element. =20

[new]
        Pre-association phase is the period of time during which an FE
Manager and a CE Manager are determining whether an FE and a CE should
be part of the same network element. =20

#5) 4.1.1 Fl Reference Point
[Comment/Reason for change] same as #1)
[old]
        CE managers and FE managers may communicate across the Fl
reference point in the pre-association phase in order to determine which
CEs and FEs should communicate with each other. =20
[new]
        CE managers and FE managers may communicate across the Fl
reference point in the pre-association phase in order to determine
whether an individual CE and FE, or a set of CEs and FEs should be
associated. =20

#6) 4.2.2 Figure 9
[Comment/Reason for change] inter-FE topology exchange is optional in
the protocol.
deleted the inter-FE topology msg exchange.
at the beginning of last paragraph:
[old]
        After the successful security handshake, the FE needs to inform
the CE of its own capability and its topology in relation to other FEs.=20
[new]
        After the successful security handshake, the FE needs to inform
the CE of its own capability and optionally its topology in relation to
other FEs.=20

#7) 4.2.2: end of last paragraph:
[Comment/Reason for change] more accurate wording.
[old]
        Once FE starts accepting packets for processing, we say the
association of this FE with its CE is now established.  From then on,
the CE and FE enter steady-state communication.
[new]
        Once the necessary initial information is exchanged, the process
of association is completed.  Packet processing and forwarding at the FE
cannot begin until association is established. =20

#8) 4.2.5 FE Proxy
[Comment/Reason for change] Clarify that FE Proxy terminates ForCES
itself.
[old]
        In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to
the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol directly, a proxy
FE can be used to terminate the Fp reference point instead of the
physical FE.  ... It is also possible that one proxy act on behalf of
multiple physical FEs.
[new]=20
        In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to
the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol directly, a proxy
FE can be used to terminate the Fp reference point instead of the
physical FE.  ... It is also possible that one proxy act on behalf of
multiple physical FEs.

#9) 4.3 Association Re-establishment
[Comment/Reason for change] same as #1).
[old]
        When an FE leaves or joins an existing NE that is already in
post-association phase, the CE needs to be aware of the impact on FE
topology and deals with the change accordingly.
[new]
        When an FE leaves or joins an existing NE that is already in
operation, the CE needs to be aware of the impact on FE topology and
deals with the change accordingly.

#9.1) Section 7 Acknowledgement (updated)

#9.5) Merged the paragraph in old section 8.2.1 to the beginning of
section 8 as part of the introduction. Following sections readjusted
accordingly.

#10) 8.1.4 Attack during Fail Over
[Comment/Reason for change] Better wording.
[old]
        Threat: ... A malicious node can take over as CE-B if such
trusted relationship is not established during the fail-over.=20
[new]
        A malicious node can take over as CE-B if such trusted
relationship has not been established prior or during the fail-over.=20

#11) 8.1.8
[Comment/Reason for change] Remove congestion control.
[old]
        Requirement: Some sort of rate limiting mechanism MUST to be in
place at both the FE and CE.  Examples of such mechanisms include
explicit rate limiters or congestion control algorithms.  Rate Limiter
SHOULD be configured at the FE for each message type that are being
received through Fi/F interface.
[new]
        Requirement: Some sort of rate limiting mechanism MUST to be in
place at both the FE and CE.  Rate Limiter SHOULD be configured at the
FE for each message type that are being received through Fi/F interface.

#12) Section 9/10: references
Adding one more reference for security:
        [18] S. Bellovin, J. Schiller, and C. Kaufman, "Security
Mechanisms for the Internet", RFC 3631, December, 2003.
Updated most references to reflect the current status (RFC, or new
revision/date)


From owner-forces@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM  Fri Jan 16 11:18:21 2004
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Approved-By: Alex Audu <alex.audu@ALCATEL.COM>
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:10:31 -0600
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Sender: Forwarding and Control Element Separation              <FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: Alex Audu <alex.audu@alcatel.com>
Subject: Re: framework v13 uploaded to IETF
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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Hi Lily,

Is there supposed to be a change in the FE Proxy section? I can see the
difference
between the [old] and the [new] text.   Sorry for the late notice.

Regards,
Alex.


#8) 4.2.5 FE Proxy
[Comment/Reason for change] Clarify that FE Proxy terminates ForCES
itself.
[old]
        In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to
the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol directly, a proxy

FE can be used to terminate the Fp reference point instead of the
physical FE.  ... It is also possible that one proxy act on behalf of
multiple physical FEs.
[new]
        In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to
the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol directly, a proxy

FE can be used to terminate the Fp reference point instead of the
physical FE.  ... It is also possible that one proxy act on behalf of
multiple physical FEs.


From owner-forces@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM  Fri Jan 16 12:25:18 2004
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Thread-Topic: framework v13 uploaded to IETF
Thread-Index: AcPcS1LZTn1k5TFtTZW2mQS9r1dDzwACPE8A
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:22:36 -0800
Reply-To: "Yang, Lily L" <lily.l.yang@intel.com>
Sender: Forwarding and Control Element Separation              <FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: "Yang, Lily L" <lily.l.yang@intel.com>
Subject: Re: framework v13 uploaded to IETF
Comments: To: alex.audu@alcatel.com
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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Oops! I knew that it would be a miracle if all those cut and paste would =
always land them in the right spots ...
I am also impressed that somebody actually read the list carefully! Good =
catch!

Here is what it is supposed to be:

[old]
In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to=20
the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol=20
directly, a proxy FE can be used in the middle of Fp reference point =20
... In such an implementation, the combination of the proxy and the=20
physical FE becomes one logical FE entity.=20
 =20
[new]
In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to
the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol=20
directly, a proxy FE can be used to terminate the Fp reference point =
instead of the
physical FE.  ... In such an implementation, the combination of the =
proxy=20
and the physical FE becomes one logical FE entity.=20
It is also possible that one proxy act on behalf of
multiple physical FEs.
=20
Lily

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
> [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf Of Alex Audu
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 8:11 AM
> To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: framework v13 uploaded to IETF
>=20
>=20
> Hi Lily,
>=20
> Is there supposed to be a change in the FE Proxy section? I=20
> can see the
> difference
> between the [old] and the [new] text.   Sorry for the late notice.
>=20
> Regards,
> Alex.
>=20
>=20
> #8) 4.2.5 FE Proxy
> [Comment/Reason for change] Clarify that FE Proxy terminates ForCES
> itself.
> [old]
>         In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to
> the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol=20
> directly, a proxy
>=20
> FE can be used to terminate the Fp reference point instead of the
> physical FE.  ... It is also possible that one proxy act on behalf of
> multiple physical FEs.
> [new]
>         In the case where a physical FE cannot implement (e.g., due to
> the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES protocol=20
> directly, a proxy
>=20
> FE can be used to terminate the Fp reference point instead of the
> physical FE.  ... It is also possible that one proxy act on behalf of
> multiple physical FEs.
>=20


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From: "Deleganes, Ellen M" <ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com>
Subject: FE Capabilities and attributes section of the model draft
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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This is the FE Capabilities and attributes section of the model draft
for general working group review. This section was contributed by Joel
Halpern and is posted as it was incorporated into section 6 of the FE
model draft. Since the model draft is getting rather long and reviewing
the entire document is a rather onerous task, sections will be posted
for working group review by either the authors or by me prior to sending
out the full updated draft for comments.

=20

Regards,

Ellen

=20

Ellen Deleganes

Intel Corporation MS JF3-206

5200 NE Elam Young Parkway

Hillsboro, OR 97124

=20

Tel:  (503) 712-4173

Fax: (503) 264-4230

=20


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This is the FE Capabilities and attributes section of =
the
model draft for general working group review. This section was =
contributed by
Joel Halpern and is posted as it was incorporated into section 6 of the =
FE
model draft. Since the model draft is getting rather long and reviewing =
the
entire document is a rather onerous task, sections will be posted for =
working
group review by either the authors or by me prior to sending out the =
full
updated draft for comments.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Regards,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Ellen</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>Ellen =
Deleganes</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>Intel =
Corporation MS
JF3-206</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
  style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>5200 NE =
Elam Young
  Parkway</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
  style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans =
Unicode"'>Hillsboro</span></font><font
 size=3D2 face=3D"Lucida Sans Unicode"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
 "Lucida Sans Unicode"'>, </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Lucida =
Sans Unicode"><span
  style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans =
Unicode"'>OR</span></font><font
 size=3D2 face=3D"Lucida Sans Unicode"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
 "Lucida Sans Unicode"'> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Lucida =
Sans Unicode"><span
  style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans =
Unicode"'>97124</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans =
Unicode"'>Tel:&nbsp;&nbsp;(503)
712-4173</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>Fax: (503) =
264-4230</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

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=00
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Subject: Pedem Missas e orações pelas vítimas do comunismo                           ref.: byo
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<FONT SIZE=2><P>Ref.: <!-- Please, unsubscribe: 
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-->(otv) </FONT><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=InEnglish"><FONT SIZE=2>InEnglish</FONT></A><FONT SIZE=2> / </FONT><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=InItaliano"><FONT SIZE=2>InItaliano</FONT></A><FONT SIZE=2> / </FONT><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=EnCastellano"><FONT SIZE=2>EnCastellano</FONT></A> 
<B><FONT SIZE=5><P>Memorial cubano: Pedido de Missas e ora&ccedil;&otilde;es pelas v&iacute;timas do comunismo</P>
</B></FONT><I><P ALIGN="CENTER">A ajuda urgente que solicitamos &eacute; de car&aacute;ter estritamente espiritual, ao alcance de cada um e, sem d&uacute;vida, a mais valiosa aos olhos de Deus</P>
</I><P>Queridos irm&atilde;os luso-brasileiros,</P>
<P>* Precisamos de vossa valiosa ajuda para resgatar do esquecimento a mais de 10 mil cubanos que morreram v&iacute;timas do regime comunista, sobre os quais se possui informa&ccedil;&atilde;o documentada. <B>Esta ajuda que lhes solicitamos &eacute; de car&aacute;ter estritamente espiritual, inteiramente ao alcance de cada um e, sem d&uacute;vida, a mais valiosa aos olhos de Deus!</P>
</B><P>* Entre os dias 20 e 23 de fevereiro pr&oacute;ximo, no Tamiami Park de Miami, Fl&oacute;rida, volunt&aacute;rios de diversos pa&iacute;ses organizar&atilde;o o Memorial Cubano, consistente em mais de 10 mil cruzes brancas, cada uma delas tendo inscrito o nome de uma v&iacute;tima do regime comunista de Cuba. Familiares desterrados que nunca puderam dar o adeus a seus seres queridos assassinados, por n&atilde;o ser-lhes permitido visitar suas tumbas em Cuba, poder&atilde;o faz&ecirc;-lo agora.</P>
<P>* No centro da &aacute;rea se localizar&aacute; uma cruz de madeira gigante, tamb&eacute;m pintada de branco, denominada "Cruz da v&iacute;tima desconhecida", que constituir&aacute; o reconhecimento a todos os que morreram por causa do regime comunista, por&eacute;m a respeito dos quais at&eacute; o momento n&atilde;o se possui informa&ccedil;&atilde;o suficiente.</P>
<P>* <B>De que maneira voc&ecirc;s podem unir-se a esta cruzada de ora&ccedil;&otilde;es e a esta homenagem espiritual? Simplesmente encomendando uma Missa ou servi&ccedil;o religioso, organizando com sua fam&iacute;lia, comunidade ou colegas de trabalho um momento de ora&ccedil;&atilde;o conjunta, ou rezando privadamente</B>. Solicitamos-lhes que as Missas sejam encomendadas, se for poss&iacute;vel, para o domingo 22 de fevereiro. Assim, no mundo inteiro, nesse dia se elevar&atilde;o preces a Deus pelo eterno descanso dessas almas. Poder&atilde;o encomend&aacute;-las em benef&iacute;cio das "v&iacute;timas do genoc&iacute;dio cubano sob o regime comunista de Fidel Castro".</P>
<P>* Muitas destas v&iacute;timas foram jovens que enfrentaram o "pared&oacute;n" de fuzilamento proclamando "Viva Cristo Rei!"</P>
<P>* <B>Confirmem-nos o quanto antes vossa ades&atilde;o</B>, encomendando Missas, prometendo ora&ccedil;&otilde;es, etc., fazendo clic em:</P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=ConfirmamosMissa/ServicoReligioso">ConfirmamosMissa/ServicoReligioso</A> e/ou <A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=ConfirmamosOra&ccedil;oesPreces">ConfirmamosOra&ccedil;oesPreces</A> incluindo local, data e, se o desejarem, outros detalhes.</P>
<P>* Irm&atilde;os ibero-americanos e homens e mulheres de boa vontade, de outras regi&otilde;es do mundo, que leiam esta mensagem e a ela adiram: <B>que a Provid&ecirc;ncia os recompense com o c&ecirc;ntuplo j&aacute; nesta terra!</P>
</B><P>Com a maior considera&ccedil;&atilde;o e estima, </P>
<P>Renato G&oacute;mez - Coordenador Geral</P>
<B><P>Comit&ecirc; Organizador do Memorial Cubano</B> </P>
<P>Tel. (1-786) 621-7505 Miami (FL)  www memorialcubano org</P>
<P>PS.:</P>
<P>Em vossas ora&ccedil;&otilde;es e preces incluam tamb&eacute;m os homens, mulheres e crian&ccedil;as que morreram afogados no estreito da Fl&oacute;rida, tentando alcan&ccedil;ar a liberdade. Seus nomes s&atilde;o em sua maioria desconhecidos e fontes autorizadas estimam que o n&uacute;mero deles seja de muitas dezenas de milhares de cubanos.</P>
<P>Por fim, rezem pelos presos pol&iacute;ticos que agonizam nos c&aacute;rceres, como o m&eacute;dico Oscar Elias Biscet, pela economista Martha Beatriz Roque e milhares de outros irm&atilde;os cubanos detidos <A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=DesejoInfoPresosPoliticos">DesejoInfoPresosPoliticos</A>. A seis anos da viagem de S.S. Jo&atilde;o Paulo II a Cuba (21-25 de janeiro de 1998), se continua contrariando o sonho papal de que a ilha-c&aacute;rcere abra-se ao mundo.</P>
<P>LINKS PRIORIT&Aacute;RIOS:</P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=ConfirmoMissa/Servi&ccedil;oReligioso">ConfirmoMissa/Servi&ccedil;oReligioso</A> e/ou <A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=ConfirmoOra&ccedil;oesPreces">ConfirmoOra&ccedil;oesPreces</A> (incluindo nome, cidade e, se desejar, outros detalhes)</P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=MinhaAjuda">MinhaAjuda</A> (narre de que maneira poder&aacute; ajudar-nos a difundir esta iniciativa espiritual e humanit&aacute;ria: reenviando esta not&iacute;cia a seus amigos, levando-a a jornalistas conhecidos, colocando-a no quadro de avisos de seu local de trabalho, etc.; pode incluir tamb&eacute;m sugest&otilde;es).</P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=MinhaOpiniao">MinhaOpiniao</A></P>
<P>OUTROS LINKS:</P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=DesejoRecibirLinkMemorialCubano">DesejoRecibirLinkMemorialCubano</A> (para receber o link do web site sobre o Memorial Cubano, com nomes de todas as v&iacute;timas)</P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=DesejoReceberInfoPresosPoliticos">DesejoReceberInfoPresosPoliticos</A></P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=ProximosEnvios:SoloEnEspa&ntilde;ol">ProximosEnvios:SoloEnEspa&ntilde;ol</A></P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=NextMails:OnlyInEnglish">NextMails:OnlyInEnglish</A></P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:memorialdecuba@yahoo.es?subject=Remover">Remover</A></P>
<B><FONT SIZE=2><P ALIGN="CENTER">A difus&atilde;o deste e-mail &eacute; de exclusiva responsabilidade da ag&ecirc;ncia humanit&aacute;ria Derechos Sin Fronteras (DSF).</P>
</B></FONT><P>Tradu&ccedil;&atilde;o: Gra&ccedil;a Salgueiro</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY>
</HTML>




From owner-forces@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM  Mon Jan 19 15:33:49 2004
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From: Jon Maloy <jon.maloy@ericsson.com>
Subject: Draft TIPC
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Here is the draft describing TIPC (now renamed to
"Transparent Inter Process Communication"):

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-maloy-tipc-00.txt

We don't explicitly refer to it as a ForCES base protocol
in the draft, but as stated earlier, it is the intention
that this should be one of the options. I plan to go to Seoul
and present this.

/Jon


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Thread-Topic: [FORCES] FE Capabilities and attributes section of the model draft
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From: "Putzolu, David" <david.putzolu@intel.com>
Subject: Re: FE Capabilities and attributes section of the model draft
Comments: To: "Deleganes, Ellen M" <ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com>
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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I just reviewed the document and had the following comments.

Cheers,
David=20

General: Is there a good cross-platform tool for
browsing and validating the schema that anyone
can recommend?

General: I noticed a few spots where comments where=20
included, that is, <!-- stuff like this -->.  Is
there some sort of annotation tag that can be used
to include comments on each attribute?  It would
be nice if the schema could be self-describing and
browsable with some nice graphical tool.

Line 5: The <xsd:annotation> tag here appears to not
  be matched anywhere, causing the document to be
  invalid. =20

FEDocument attribute: Why is all capabilities and
attributes optional? Seems like mandating that providing
the information should be mandatory.

1.4.1 FECapabilities should all be mandatory. E.g.
every FE should be able to indicate whether it can
support modifiable topology or not. Actually, all=20
the attributes I looked at should be mandatory. =20
Having defaults is good, but requiring that the FE
explicitly say what capabilities it has reduces the
chance of hard-to-diagnose bugs due to an FE implementor
assuming the default was A when in fact it was NotA,
where the implementor didn't express the attribute due
to assuming the (unexpressed) default matches their
implementation.

1.4.2.2.4/5 The CanOccur approach says that LFBs
have particular other LFBs they can follow/precede.
Why not instead define LFB connectivity according to
the type of traffic on a LFBLink?  I.e. perhaps an IPv6
forwarder LFB would only be able to accept input
from other LFBs that output IPv6 traffic.   Perhaps
consider allowing both types of constraints to be
expressed.

1.4.3.4.1 What Neighbor does the NeighborID refer=20
to? Neighboring CE (within a NE), Neighboring NE (within
a network), neighboring LFB (within an FE), or=20
neighboring FE (within an NE)?

(end)


From owner-forces@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM  Mon Jan 19 18:03:40 2004
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From: Alex Audu <alex.audu@alcatel.com>
Subject: Re: FE Capabilities and attributes section of the model draft
Comments: To: "Putzolu, David" <david.putzolu@intel.com>
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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This the same question I have in mind. May be we can have a graphical
representation
of the FECapabilities and Attributes structure itself. This will give us
something to
correlate the XML structure with.

Regards,
Alex.

"Putzolu, David" wrote:

> I just reviewed the document and had the following comments.
>
> Cheers,
> David
>
> General: Is there a good cross-platform tool for
> browsing and validating the schema that anyone
> can recommend?
>
> General: I noticed a few spots where comments where
> included, that is, <!-- stuff like this -->.  Is
> there some sort of annotation tag that can be used
> to include comments on each attribute?  It would
> be nice if the schema could be self-describing and
> browsable with some nice graphical tool.
>
> Line 5: The <xsd:annotation> tag here appears to not
>   be matched anywhere, causing the document to be
>   invalid.
>
> FEDocument attribute: Why is all capabilities and
> attributes optional? Seems like mandating that providing
> the information should be mandatory.
>
> 1.4.1 FECapabilities should all be mandatory. E.g.
> every FE should be able to indicate whether it can
> support modifiable topology or not. Actually, all
> the attributes I looked at should be mandatory.
> Having defaults is good, but requiring that the FE
> explicitly say what capabilities it has reduces the
> chance of hard-to-diagnose bugs due to an FE implementor
> assuming the default was A when in fact it was NotA,
> where the implementor didn't express the attribute due
> to assuming the (unexpressed) default matches their
> implementation.
>
> 1.4.2.2.4/5 The CanOccur approach says that LFBs
> have particular other LFBs they can follow/precede.
> Why not instead define LFB connectivity according to
> the type of traffic on a LFBLink?  I.e. perhaps an IPv6
> forwarder LFB would only be able to accept input
> from other LFBs that output IPv6 traffic.   Perhaps
> consider allowing both types of constraints to be
> expressed.
>
> 1.4.3.4.1 What Neighbor does the NeighborID refer
> to? Neighboring CE (within a NE), Neighboring NE (within
> a network), neighboring LFB (within an FE), or
> neighboring FE (within an NE)?
>
> (end)


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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:56:16 -0500
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Sender: Forwarding and Control Element Separation              <FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <joel@stevecrocker.com>
Subject: Re: FE Capabilities and attributes section of the model draft
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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Let me restate the questions, and try to provide the answers that motivated
me when I wrote the text:

I used Oxygen to validate the schema, and to validate the sample against
the schema.  Cut and paste errors may have crept in since.  (Oxygen is
commercial, with a 30 day free trial.  There are other good tools, such as
XMLspy.)

The schema should have more documentation.  Probably as annotations.  I did
not think that the full descriptive text went in the schema (at least every
other example I have seen has less information in the schema than in the
document.)  Since I was not sure where to draw the line, I figured that
schema internal documentation could wait.

I made everything optional for now for two reasons:
1) I had to make a call.  Since there was some resistance to a lot of these
things, I thought that optionality with defaults was sensible.  I have no
objection if folks think that all the information should be mandatory.
2) By making it optional I could write a short example which would match
the schema.  (Not a very good reason, but it helped me out.)

The reason for the "CanOccurs" approach is that we can not predefine the
traffic types, nor the implementation types.  Within the set of FEs with
adjustable topology, some will be able to support placing any LFB in any
place in the topology.  Others will have restrictions on which elements can
occur where.  While not all restrictions can be expressed this way (in
general, there are going to be non-expressable capability
restrictions.  The FE will give errors if the CE tries to order it to do
something it can not) nonetheless, I wanted a flexible approach.  And
knowing whether the traffic is v4 or v6t only helps choose a few of the
branches / placements.  Getting into specifying the services the FE
delivers, and the order of LFBs that the CE / FE use to deliver those
services is clearly not the job of the FE Model (nor even the ForCES
protocol specification, except as examples.)

Section 1.4.3.4 is about inter-FE topology.  NeighborID is some sort of ID
for the neighboring FE.  Whether that neighboring FE is in the same NE, in
a different NE, or actually some router probably depends upon how you
expect the FE to know about its neighbors.  I expect that the ID will be an
IP (v4 or v6) address.  But I felt that it was a little premature to
specify that.  [I tried to give this information fair treatment.  I
apologize if my biases caused it to be under-specified.]

Thanks very much for taking a look at this.
More comments please.
Joel

PS: I saw Alex's request for a diagram.  If the CanOccurs stuff is still
confusing, I will have to find some tools and write a much longer
explanation, with diagrams.  My concern is that the next step up in
explanation gets quite verbose.

At 02:16 PM 1/19/2004 -0800, Putzolu, David wrote:
>I just reviewed the document and had the following comments.
>
>Cheers,
>David
>
>General: Is there a good cross-platform tool for
>browsing and validating the schema that anyone
>can recommend?
>
>General: I noticed a few spots where comments where
>included, that is, <!-- stuff like this -->.  Is
>there some sort of annotation tag that can be used
>to include comments on each attribute?  It would
>be nice if the schema could be self-describing and
>browsable with some nice graphical tool.
>
>Line 5: The <xsd:annotation> tag here appears to not
>   be matched anywhere, causing the document to be
>   invalid.
>
>FEDocument attribute: Why is all capabilities and
>attributes optional? Seems like mandating that providing
>the information should be mandatory.
>
>1.4.1 FECapabilities should all be mandatory. E.g.
>every FE should be able to indicate whether it can
>support modifiable topology or not. Actually, all
>the attributes I looked at should be mandatory.
>Having defaults is good, but requiring that the FE
>explicitly say what capabilities it has reduces the
>chance of hard-to-diagnose bugs due to an FE implementor
>assuming the default was A when in fact it was NotA,
>where the implementor didn't express the attribute due
>to assuming the (unexpressed) default matches their
>implementation.
>
>1.4.2.2.4/5 The CanOccur approach says that LFBs
>have particular other LFBs they can follow/precede.
>Why not instead define LFB connectivity according to
>the type of traffic on a LFBLink?  I.e. perhaps an IPv6
>forwarder LFB would only be able to accept input
>from other LFBs that output IPv6 traffic.   Perhaps
>consider allowing both types of constraints to be
>expressed.
>
>1.4.3.4.1 What Neighbor does the NeighborID refer
>to? Neighboring CE (within a NE), Neighboring NE (within
>a network), neighboring LFB (within an FE), or
>neighboring FE (within an NE)?
>
>(end)


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All,

The revised Framework has not received further comment
and thus is now being forwarded back to the IESG for=20
final review.

Cheers,
David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation=20
> [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Putzolu, David
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 4:31 PM
> To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: [FORCES] framework v13 uploaded to IETF
>=20
> All,
>=20
> This document has received good detailed review and the=20
> changes made are clarifications and not major technical changes. =20
>=20
> Please review the change list (included below) and comment=20
> before January 20 if there are any significant issues with=20
> this document.
>=20
> Thanks,
> David
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation=20
> > [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Yang, Lily L
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:41 AM
> > To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> > Subject: [FORCES] framework v13 uploaded to IETF
> >=20
> > Hi, all --
> >=20
> > This new version of framework incorporated the most recent comments=20
> > from Avri, Jamal and others in the list. Below is a detailed log of=20
> > the changes. There are numerous clarification and=20
> corrections, but no=20
> > substantial change in the technical content.
> >=20
> > This revision is uploaded to IETF and we feel ready to go RFC.=20
> >=20
> > Lily
> >=20
> >=20
> >  <<draft-ietf-forces-framework-13.txt>>
> >=20
> > -------------------------- summary of changes in v13
> > --------------------------------------------
> >=20
> > #1) Section 1 Dfinition:
> > [Comment/Reason for change] To clarify that association is=20
> a per CE-FE=20
> > concept.
> > [old]
> >         Pre-association Phase - The period of time during=20
> which an FE=20
> > Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are=20
> determining which=20
> > FE and CE should be part of the same network element.
> >            =20
> > [new]
> >         Pre-association Phase - The period of time during=20
> which an FE=20
> > Manager (see below) and a CE Manager (see below) are determining=20
> > whether an FE and a CE should be part of the
> > same network element.     It is possible for some elements of=20
> > the NE to be in pre-association=20
> >         phase while other elements are in the=20
> post-association phase.
> >=20
> > #2) Section 3. Achitecture
> > [Comment/Reason for change] To avoid the misconception that=20
> > association is a NE system wide concept.
> > [deleted]=20
> >         There is no defined role for FE Manager and CE Manager in=20
> > post-association phase, thus these logical components are not=20
> > considered part of the ForCES NE.
> >=20
> > 3.2 at the end of 1st paragraph:
> > [Comment/Reason for change] clarify the impact of FE virtualization.
> > [old]
> >         However, if FE virtualization results in dynamic resource=20
> > change on FE during post-association phase, the FE model=20
> needs to be=20
> > able to report such capability and the Protocol needs to be able to=20
> > inform the CE of such change via asynchronous messages (see [3],=20
> > Section 5, requirement #6).
> > [new]
> >         However, if FE virtualization results in resource=20
> change taken=20
> > from an existing FE (already participating in ForCES=20
> post-association=20
> > phase), the ForCES Protocol needs to be able to inform the=20
> CE of such=20
> > change via asynchronous messages (see [3], Section 5,=20
> requirement #6).
> >=20
> >=20
> > #3) 3.2 at the end of the 2nd paragraph
> > [Comment/Reason for change] To point out the behavior issue=20
> > of FE accepting commands from multiple CEs.
> > [add] Unless otherwise configured or determined by a ForCEs=20
> > Protocol exchange,       each FE will process authorized=20
> > incoming commands directed at it as it        receives them=20
> > on a first come first serve basis. =20
> >=20
> > #4) 4.1 Pre_association Phase
> > [Comment/Reason for change] same as #1)
> > [old]
> >         Pre-association phase is the period of time during=20
> > which an FE Manager and a CE Manager are determining which FE=20
> > and CE should be part of the same network element. =20
> >=20
> > [new]
> >         Pre-association phase is the period of time during=20
> > which an FE Manager and a CE Manager are determining whether=20
> > an FE and a CE should be part of the same network element. =20
> >=20
> > #5) 4.1.1 Fl Reference Point
> > [Comment/Reason for change] same as #1)
> > [old]
> >         CE managers and FE managers may communicate across=20
> > the Fl reference point in the pre-association phase in order=20
> > to determine which CEs and FEs should communicate with each other. =20
> > [new]
> >         CE managers and FE managers may communicate across=20
> > the Fl reference point in the pre-association phase in order=20
> > to determine whether an individual CE and FE, or a set of CEs=20
> > and FEs should be associated. =20
> >=20
> > #6) 4.2.2 Figure 9
> > [Comment/Reason for change] inter-FE topology exchange is=20
> > optional in the protocol.
> > deleted the inter-FE topology msg exchange.
> > at the beginning of last paragraph:
> > [old]
> >         After the successful security handshake, the FE needs=20
> > to inform the CE of its own capability and its topology in=20
> > relation to other FEs.=20
> > [new]
> >         After the successful security handshake, the FE needs=20
> > to inform the CE of its own capability and optionally its=20
> > topology in relation to other FEs.=20
> >=20
> > #7) 4.2.2: end of last paragraph:
> > [Comment/Reason for change] more accurate wording.
> > [old]
> >         Once FE starts accepting packets for processing, we=20
> > say the association of this FE with its CE is now=20
> > established.  From then on, the CE and FE enter steady-state=20
> > communication.
> > [new]
> >         Once the necessary initial information is exchanged,=20
> > the process of association is completed.  Packet processing=20
> > and forwarding at the FE cannot begin until association is=20
> > established. =20
> >=20
> > #8) 4.2.5 FE Proxy
> > [Comment/Reason for change] Clarify that FE Proxy terminates=20
> > ForCES itself.
> > [old]
> >         In the case where a physical FE cannot implement=20
> > (e.g., due to the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES=20
> > protocol directly, a proxy FE can be used to terminate the Fp=20
> > reference point instead of the physical FE.  ... It is also=20
> > possible that one proxy act on behalf of multiple physical FEs.
> > [new]=20
> >         In the case where a physical FE cannot implement=20
> > (e.g., due to the lack of a general purpose CPU) the ForCES=20
> > protocol directly, a proxy FE can be used to terminate the Fp=20
> > reference point instead of the physical FE.  ... It is also=20
> > possible that one proxy act on behalf of multiple physical FEs.
> >=20
> > #9) 4.3 Association Re-establishment
> > [Comment/Reason for change] same as #1).
> > [old]
> >         When an FE leaves or joins an existing NE that is=20
> > already in post-association phase, the CE needs to be aware=20
> > of the impact on FE topology and deals with the change accordingly.
> > [new]
> >         When an FE leaves or joins an existing NE that is=20
> > already in operation, the CE needs to be aware of the impact=20
> > on FE topology and deals with the change accordingly.
> >=20
> > #9.1) Section 7 Acknowledgement (updated)
> >=20
> > #9.5) Merged the paragraph in old section 8.2.1 to the=20
> > beginning of section 8 as part of the introduction. Following=20
> > sections readjusted accordingly.
> >=20
> > #10) 8.1.4 Attack during Fail Over
> > [Comment/Reason for change] Better wording.
> > [old]
> >         Threat: ... A malicious node can take over as CE-B if=20
> > such trusted relationship is not established during the fail-over.=20
> > [new]
> >         A malicious node can take over as CE-B if such=20
> > trusted relationship has not been established prior or during=20
> > the fail-over.=20
> >=20
> > #11) 8.1.8
> > [Comment/Reason for change] Remove congestion control.
> > [old]
> >         Requirement: Some sort of rate limiting mechanism=20
> > MUST to be in place at both the FE and CE.  Examples of such=20
> > mechanisms include explicit rate limiters or congestion=20
> > control algorithms.  Rate Limiter SHOULD be configured at the=20
> > FE for each message type that are being received through Fi/F=20
> > interface.
> > [new]
> >         Requirement: Some sort of rate limiting mechanism=20
> > MUST to be in place at both the FE and CE.  Rate Limiter=20
> > SHOULD be configured at the FE for each message type that are=20
> > being received through Fi/F interface.
> >=20
> > #12) Section 9/10: references
> > Adding one more reference for security:
> >         [18] S. Bellovin, J. Schiller, and C. Kaufman,=20
> > "Security Mechanisms for the Internet", RFC 3631, December, 2003.
> > Updated most references to reflect the current status (RFC,=20
> > or new revision/date)
> >=20
> >=20
>=20


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Subject: Metadata model for the ForCES model
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Hi,

Attached is a writeup on the metadata model that the ForCES
model team worked out for modeling state propagation between
LFBs.  The model team is working on incorporating this
text (after some further clarification work) into the upcoming
revision of the model draft, but we thought it may be beneficial
to have this early dissemination to the wider ForCES audience
(even though the text is a bit raw), with the hope of getting
some early feedback.

So, comments are welcome.

--
Zsolt Haraszti, Ph.D.                              Tel: +1 919 472 9949
Ericsson IP Infrastructure                      Mobile: +1 240 505 2852
Raleigh NC USA                                     Fax: +1 919 472 9999
Email: zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com

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Simple Metadata Model for the ForCES Model
==========================================


1  Per-packet state variables and their life-cycle


In order to propose a metadata model for ForCES, first it is useful to
understand the notion  of  per-packet  state  and  the  life-cycle  of
per-packet state variables in the forwarding plane.

As the packet is processed  in  the  forwarding  plane  (either  in  a
physical implementation or in the logical  model),  various  types  of
state information are created and kept in association with the  packet
to assist further processing of the packet.

Although such state information is somewhat implementation  dependent,
it can always be regarded as a collection of  independent  or  loosely
coupled state variables. The (logical) interface at which  the  packet
was received, the result of  a  classification  operation,  the  color
associated with the packet as a result  of  metering,  etc.,  are  all
examples of such per-packet state variables. For most cases,  each  of
these variables can be conveniently modeled as a <label, value>  pair,
where the label identifies  the  type  of  information  (for  example,
"color"), and its value holds the current value for the packet  (e.g.,
"red"). The value is typically a  simple  integer  (enumerator,  table
entry reference, actual protocol value), or in some cases  it  may  be
some structure protocol address, such as an IP or MAC address.

In any given system, there is a finite number of state variables  that
can be associated with (created for) a  packet.  As  the  packet  goes
through its life-cycle (i.e., traverses through the forwarding plane),
each of the state variables goes  through  its  own  life-cycle,  some
possibly more than once.

For the discussion that follows, we define the life-cycle of the state
variable using three types of events: "write", "read"  and  "consume".
The  first  "write"  event  initializes  the  value  of  the  variable
(implicitly creating and/or  initializing  the  variable),  and  hence
starts the life-cycle. The explicit  "consume"  event  terminates  the
life-cycle. Within the life-cycle, that is after a "write"  event  but
before the next "consume" event, there can be an arbitrary  number  of
"write" and "read" events. These can be mixed in  an  arbitrary  order
within the life-cycle. Outside of the life-cycle, that is  before  the
fist "write" event, or between a "consume" event and the next  "write"
event,  the  state  variable  should  be  regarded   non-existent   or
non-initialized. Reading a state variable outside of its life-cycle is
considered an error.

Although the length of the life-cycle of a state variable may coincide
with the packet's own life-cycle, typically it is  much  shorter,  and
sometimes it is possible that a state variable goes through more  than
one life-cycle for the same packet. An example for the latter is  when
an IP packet is encapsulated (tunneled) in another  IP  packet  (e.g.,
GRE or IP-IP). In such a case, IP LPM lookup needs to be  done  twice,
once for the inner packet and then for the outer.  Assuming  that  the
LPM lookup results in a state  variable  that  encodes  the  next  hop
information which is then used and consumed by a next hop stage,  such
state variable is initialized and  then  consumed  twice,  i.e.,  goes
through two life-cycles.


2  Per-packet State Variables and the ForCES LFB Model


According to the ForCES model, the operation of the  forwarding  plane
is logically decomposed into a set of LFBs  and  thus  the  forwarding
plane is modeled by a  directed  graph  of  such  LFBs.  To  make  the
decomposition possible, the model needs to rely  on  per-packet  state
variables, just as any physical implementation.  Note,  however,  that
the  LFB  model  may  or  may  not  closely  resemble   the   physical
implementation, hence the per-packet state variables of the model  may
differ from the actual per-packet  state  variables  of  the  physical
implementation.

With respect to the life-cycle of per-packet state  variables  in  the
LFB model, we can distinguish between intra-LFB  state  variables  and
inter-LFB state variables. The former  type  of  state  variables  are
those which have life-cycles that are completely contained  within  an
LFB. The existence and actual value of such variables do not  need  to
be (and should not be) exposed  to  the  ForCES  model  and  protocol,
except that it may be mentioned in the textual operational description
of the LFB as a way of describing the logical operation of the LFB.

In the remaining part of this discussion we will narrow our  focus  on
those per-packet state variables of the model  that  have  life-cycles
spanning across more than one LFB, since these are the ones that  will
be carried as metadata. We can call these  variables  inter-LFB  state
variables. As we will see shortly, inter-LFB state variables  must  be
exposed to the ForCES model and protocol to some extent, as  they  put
certain requirements on both.  These  are  further  discussed  in  the
remaining part of this document.


3 Modeling Choices for the Propagation of State Variables Between LFBs


The ForCES model must capture  how  per-packet  state  information  is
propagated from one LFB to other(s) on the same FE, and also from  one
LFB on one FE to another LFB on another FE.

Before discussing our possible modeling choices, we should  point  out
that there is a wide range of ways how actual physical implementations
keep and manage per-packet state variables. On  the  one  end  of  the
spectrum are the pure register-based approaches, where there  is  some
sort  of  a  globally  accessible  register   array,   each   register
representing a certain state variable. Ideally, the  registers  should
be available for read and write from any part of the forwarding  plane
that need to read and/or write the variable. If all involved stages of
the forwarding plane can look at the global registers, there is  never
a need to  actually  send  any  information  along  with  the  packet.
Ideally, each state variable should be mapped to its own register,  in
which case the forwarding plane can be  re-arranged  without  changing
the register allocations. Due  to  various  hardware  constraints,  in
practical implementations registers are  typically  re-used/shared  by
more than one state variables, utilizing the limited temporal scope of
the  variables.  Register  sharing  may  require   re-allocating   the
registers when the forwarding operations are re-arranged.

On the other end of the spectrum are the pure  frame-based  solutions.
Here all relevant packet state variables are pre-pended or appended to
the packet in some lower-layer frame, and sent along with  the  packet
from one processing operation stage to the next.

Register-based  approaches  are  considered  more   efficient   inside
processors or processor cores, but their applicability is  limited  to
these, as all users of the variable must be able to  access  the  same
memory/registers.  On  the  other  hand,  one  can  always   use   the
frame-based approach, even though in cases  where  the  register-based
approach is available the latter is typically more efficient.

In  most  physical  implementations  the  two  approaches  are  mixed:
register based approaches may be preferred within  network  processors
or processor cores, while frame-based approaches may  be  used  across
processor(-core)  and   FE   boundaries.   In   fact,   for   inter-FE
communication of per packet state information the frame-based approach
is the only sensible alternative.

When it  comes  to  modeling  per-packet  state  information  and  its
propagation in the ForCES model, we can for a second consider both the
register based and the frame-based alternatives as  a  starting  point
for the model. Since physical constraints are not  applicable  to  the
model, both approaches are feasible, and there is little incentive  to
use a mixture of the two. It is however an  advantage  (though  not  a
requirement) if the selected model resembles how the state is actually
propagated  in  physical  implementations.   Since   the   frame-based
implementation   is   a   more   universal   option    for    physical
implementations, we argue that the ForCES  model  should  also  use  a
model where the state variables conceptually are sent with the packet.
We call such model a metadata model, since  the  state  variables  are
sent with the packet as metadata. The following sections introduce the
metadata model in more details.


4 The Proposed Metadata Model


Our proposed metadata model is defined as follows:

The per-packet inter-LFB state  information  is  propagated  with  the
packet as metadata. Although  this  conceptually  corresponds  to  the
frame-based approach, the model does not specify how the  metadata  is
actually passed (the framing), it simply assumes that the metadata  is
passed with the packet. The only exception is  inter-FE  links,  where
physical inter-operability (and testability) requires that  the  frame
formats, metadata encoding, endiannes, etc., are  properly  specified.
Such specifications are beyond the scope of this document.

A metadata corresponds to one per-packet state variable, and thus  has
a label (or tag) part that identifies the type of information,  and  a
value part that carries the actual information. Lets denote this as  a
<TAG="value"> pair, e.g., <COLOR="green">. The tag here is shown as  a
textual label, but it can be replaced  or  associated  with  a  unique
numeric value (identifier). The value part is assumed to be  a  32-bit
signed integer (negative values are typically used to  encode  special
values).

At any given edge of the LFB topology  graph  (any  link  between  two
LFBs), the packet is marked with a  finite  set  of  active  metadata,
where active means that all metadata is inside its  life-cycle  (i.e.,
have been properly initialized, and has not been  consumed  yet).  Two
corollaries of this model:

1 No uninitialized metadata exists in the model.

2 There can only be up to one occurrence of each metadata type (label)
  associated with the packet at any given time.

When the packet is processed by an LFB, i.e., between it  is  received
and forwarded by the LFB, the  LFB  may  perform  read,  write  and/or
consume operation on any of the metadata. Considering  the  LFB  as  a
back box, we  can  say  that  one  of  the  following  operations  are
performed on each metadata:

- IGNORE:           ignores and forwards it
- READ:             reads and forwards it
- READ/RE-WRITE:    reads, over-writes and forwards it
- WRITE:            writes and forwards it
- READ-AND-CONSUME: reads and consumes it
- CONSUME:          consumes it (without reading)

The last two terminate the life-cycle of the  metadata,  meaning  that
the metadata is not forwarded with the packet when the packet is  sent
to the next LFB.

In our model a new metadata is  generated  by  an  LFB  when  the  LFB
applies a WRITE operation into a metadata type that  was  not  present
when the packet was received by the LFB. Such implicit creation may be
unintentional by the LFB,  that  is,  the  LFB  may  apply  the  WRITE
operation without knowing or caring if the given metadata  existed  or
not. If it existed, it gets over-written; if it did not exist, it gets
created.

For source type LFBs (i.e., that insert packets into the model), WRITE
is the only meaningful metadata operation.

Sink type of LFBs (that remove the packet from the model)  may  either
read (READ-AND-CONSUME) or ignore (CONSUME) each metadata.


5 Metadata Production and Consumption


For a given metadata on a given packet path, there is at least one LFB
that creates that metadata (producer), and there should  be  at  least
one LFB that needs that metadata (consumer).

The producer and the consumer LFBs may not be adjacent.

There may be multiple consumers for the same metadata.

There may be multiple producers of the same metadata. If a packet path
involves multiple producers of the same metadata, then the  2nd,  3rd,
etc. producers overwrite the metadata value.

What metadata is produced by an LFB is  specified  by  the  LFB  class
definition on a per output port group basis.  A  producer  may  always
generate the metadata on the port group, or may generate it only  upon
certain conditions. We call the  former  a  "unconditional"  metadata,
whereas the latter  is  a  "conditional"  metadata.  In  the  case  of
conditional metadata, it should be  possible  to  determine  from  the
definition of the LFB when a "conditional" metadata is produced.

The consumer behavior of an LFB, i.e., what metadata the LFB needs for
its operation, is defined in the LFB class definition on a  per  input
port group basis. An input port group may "require" a given  metadata,
or may treat it as an "optional" information. In the  latter  case  it
must be explicitly defined in the LFB class definition what happens if
an optional metadata is not provided. This may be done in the form  of
providing a default value for each  optional  metadata,  and  assuming
that the default value is substituted if the metadata is not  provided
for a packet.


6 Expressing Inter-LFB Metadata Dependencies


When a consumer requires a given metadata, it has dependencies on  its
up-stream LFBs, that is, it can only function if there is at least one
producer of  that  metadata  and  no  intermediate  LFB  consumes  the
metadata.

The model  should  expose  the  inter-dependency,  and  it  should  be
possible that the inter-dependency can  be  taken  into  consideration
when constructing LFB topologies, and  also  that  dependency  can  be
verified when validating topologies.

For extensibility reasons it is preferred that  an  LFB  specification
defines what metadata the LFB requires, but  without  specifying  from
what other LFB it expect a certain metadata to come  from.  Similarly,
LFBs should specify what metadata they produce, but  without  defining
what other LFBs the metadata is meant for.

When specifying the metadata tags (labels), some harmonization  effort
must be made so that the producer LFB(-class) uses the same tag as its
intended consumer(s), or vice versa.



7 Fixed Tag, Variable Tag, and Configurable Tag Metadata Production

When the produced metadata is defined for  a  given  LFB  class,  most
metadata will be specified with a fixed tag. For example, a Rate Meter
LFB will always produce the "Color" metadata.

A small subset of LFBs will need to have the capability to produce one
or more of their metadata with tags that are  not  fixed  in  the  LFB
class definition, but instead can be selected  per  LFB  instance.  We
call this  variable  tag  metadata  production.  If  an  LFB  produces
metadata with variable tag, a corresponding LFB attribute--called  the
tag selector--specifies the tag for each such metadata. This mechanism
is to improve the versatility of certain  multi-purpose  LFB  classes,
since it allows the same LFB class be used  in  different  topologies,
producing the right metadata  tags  according  to  the  needs  of  the
topology. An example for such LFB class is a Generic Classifier LFB.

Depending on the capability of the FE,  the  tag  selector  can  be  a
read-only or a read-write attribute. In the former case the tag cannot
be modified by the CE. In the latter case the tag can be configured by
the CE, hence we call this  "configurable  tag  metadata  production."
(Note that in this definition configurable tag metadata production  is
a subset of variable tag metadata production.)

As for any other LFB  attribute,  the  ForCES  protocol  will  provide
access for the CE to examine (and for the configurable case to modify)
the value of the tag selector.


8 Fixed Tag, Variable Tag, and Configurable Tag Metadata Needs

Most LFB  classes  will  specify  their  metadata  needs  using  fixed
metadata tags. For example, a  Next  Hop  LFB  may  always  require  a
"NextHopId" metadata.

For a small subset of LFB classes, however, it is beneficial to  leave
the tag of some required or optional metadata unspecified in  the  LFB
class definition, and instead refer to an LFB attribute that  provides
the required metadata tag at run-time. For example, the Redirector LFB
may  need  to  use  a  "ClassID"  metadata  in  one  instance,  and  a
"ProtocolType" metadata in another instance as a basis  for  selecting
the right output port.

This mechanism allows for a certain level of adaptability for the  LFB
class. The  metadata  tag  selector  attribute  may  be  read-only  or
read-write, depending on the capabilities of the LFB instance and  the
FE.

In either case,  the  ForCES  protocol  will  provide  the  means  for
accessing the attribute.


9 Metadata Usage Categories

Depending on the role and usage  of  a  metadata,  various  amount  of
encoding information must be provided when the  metadata  is  defined,
and some cases offer less flexibility  in  the  value  selection  than
others.

As far as usage of a metadata is concerned, three  types  of  metadata
exist:
- Relational (or binding) metadata
- Enumerated metadata
- Explicit/external value metadata

The purpose of the relational metadata is to refer in one LFB instance
(producer LFB)  to  a  "thing"  in  another  downstream  LFB  instance
(consumer LFB), where the "thing" is typically an  entry  in  a  table
attribute of the consumer LFB.

For example, the Prefix Lookup LFB executes an LPM  search  using  its
prefix table and resolves to  a  next-hop  reference.  This  reference
needs to be passed as metadata by the Prefix Lookup LFB (producer)  to
the Next Hop LFB (consumer), and must refer to a specific entry in the
next-hop table within the consumer.

Expressing and propagating such binding relationship is  probably  the
most common usage of metadata. One or more object in the producer  LFB
are related (bound) to a specific object in  the  consumer  LFB.  Such
relation is established by the CE very explicitely, i.e., by  properly
configuring the attributes in both LFBs. Available methods include the
following:

The binding may be expressed by tagging the involved objects  in  both
LFBs by the same unique  (but  otherwise  arbitrary)  identifier.  The
value of the tag is explicitly configured (written  by  the  CE)  into
both LFBs, and this value also is the value what the metadata  carries
between the LFBs.

Another way of setting  up  binding  relations  is  when  a  naturally
occurring unique identifier of the consumer's object (for example, the
array index of a table entry) is used as a reference (and as  a  value
of the metadata. In such case the index is obtained (read) or inferred
by the CE by communicating with the consumer LFB. Once the CE obtained
the index, it needs to plug  (write)  it  into  the  producer  LFB  to
establish the binding.

Important characteristics of the binding usage of metadata are:
- The value of the metadata shows up in the CE-FE communication for
  BOTH the consumer and the producer, that is, its value must be
  carried over the ForCES protocol.  Using the tagging technique,
  the value is WRITTEN to both LFBs.  Using the other technique,
  the value is WRITTEN to only the producer LFB and may be READ
  from the consumer LFB.
- The actual value is irrelevant for the CE, the binding is simply
  expressed by using the SAME value at the consumer and producer
  LFBs.
- Hence the definiton of the metadata does not have to include
  value assignments.  The only exception is when some special value(s)
  of the metadata must be reserved to convey special events.  Eventhough
  such special cases must be then defined with the metadata specification,
  their encoded values can be selected rather arbitrarily.  For example,
  for the above Prefix Lookup LFB example, a special value may be
  reserved to signal the NO-MATCH case, and the value of zero may be
  assigned for this purpose.

The second class of metadata is the enumerated type. An example is the
Color metadata that is produced by a Meter LFB and  consumed  by  some
other LFBs. As the name suggests, such metadata has a relatively small
number of possible values, each with a very specific meaning. All  the
possible cases must be  enumerated  when  defining  such  a  metadata.
Although a value encoding must be included in the  specification,  the
actual values  can  be  selected  rather  arbitrarily  (e.g.,  <Red=0,
Yellow=1, Green=2> and <Red=3, Yellow=2, Green 1> would be both  valid
encodings, what is important is that an encoding is specified).

The value of the enumerated metadata may or may not  be  conveyed  via
the ForCES protocol between the CE and FE.

The third class of metadata is of the explicit type.  This  refers  to
cases where the value of  the  metadata  is  explicitly  used  by  the
consumer LFB to change some packet header fields. In other words,  its
value has a direct and explicit impact  on  some  field  and  will  be
visible externally when the packet leaves the  NE.  Examples  are  TTL
increment given to a Header Modifier LFB, DSCP value  for  a  Remarker
LFB. For such type of metadata not only that the value  encoding  must
be explicitly provided in the metadata definition, the  values  cannot
be selected arbitrarily, but rather they should  conform  to  what  is
commonly expected. For example, a TTL increment metadata should encode
with zero the no increment case, by one  the  single  increment  case,
etc. A DSCP metadata should use  0  to  endoce  DSCP=0,  1  to  encode
DSCP=1, etc.








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All,

After reviewing the protocol submissions it appears that
each of the proposals has valuable features that merit
inclusion in the ForCES protocol.

Patrick and I would like to urge the various authors to
evaluate whether a merger of the protocols, selecting the
best features of each, would be possible.=20

In order to expedite this process we are considering holding
and interim working group meeting two weeks prior to the=20
next IETF where interested parties could meet for a day to
focus on producing a "best of all worlds" proposal.

Please contact Patrick or I if you would be interested in
attending such a meeting.

Thanks,
David & Patrick
co-chairs, IETF ForCES Working Group


From owner-forces@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM  Sat Jan 31 17:22:19 2004
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Subject: Re: FE Capabilities and attributes section of the model draft
Comments: To: "Joel M. Halpern" <joel@stevecrocker.com>
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On Mon, 2004-01-19 at 18:56, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> Let me restate the questions, and try to provide the answers that motivated
> me when I wrote the text:
>
> I used Oxygen to validate the schema, and to validate the sample against
> the schema.  Cut and paste errors may have crept in since.  (Oxygen is
> commercial, with a 30 day free trial.  There are other good tools, such as
> XMLspy.)
>

Just downloaded Oxygen and it doesnt validate for me either.
I think it would be nice to have a validated XML in the text.

Also nice to see the breakdowns of sections approach instead of one big
doc.

Comments:
- Something bothering me is the FEattribute piece however many times i
stared at it. So i figured i would start from the ground up.
Is it fair to say that "capabilities constitute attributes".
That once you give these attributes values or parametrize them as the
FEAttributes branch does, then now you are talking about state - which
may be more closer to implementation details than to a model.
I am not saying i have an answer on what would be a good way to resolve
this. I think the FECapabilities piece is  well done. I just dont know
what to make of the FEattributes - they dont taste too good. For example
the FEAttributesType seems to be a scatter of a few things. Vendor,
Model (maybe serial number and you could go further to say slotid etc)
are more like Product Data (as in PCI VPD) whereas FEstatus seems to
be an instanteous state of the FE and LFB* seem to be related
instantiated LFB policies (or topologies). Its almost like FEAttributes
is meant to be FERunningState.

- The FE should probably have a name and provisioned numeric ID.

- FEConfiguredNeighborType is also one of those things that doesnt
seem to really fit in that picture. Some of the pieces seem to fit into
three different possible LFBs: Port, Neighbor and i dont know if you
want to call IP address provisioning as an LFB. Which seems to me like
we need at least some base LFBs to always be in the FE (i.e MUST) to
satisfy the basic model. So maybe we should head that way with the
model.

Other comments:

1. FE Attributes and Capabilities
"A ForCES forwarding element handles traffic on behalf of
a ForCES control element.  While the standards will
describe the protocol and mechanisms for this control,
different implementations and different instances will
have different capabilities"

What is the last "instances" refering to?

1.4.2

"LFBsSupported, WriteableAttributes and ReadableAttributes."
 dont exist in the schema. I think you meant SupportedLFBs
and SupportedAttributes.

1.4.2.1
- "LFBs supported clause" probably intended to say SupportedLFBs
- Also would it not be OK to use CanOccurBefore and CanOccurAfter
even for static topolgies as a way to capture the static topology?

1.4.2.2. SupportedLFBs and SupportedLFB

I think each LFB with a name will end up getting some numeric ID
probably issued by IANA. so a LFBId would be a good fit here.

1.4.2.5
- CanOccurBefore and CanOccurAfter: I think it would be good to state
the "any" or wildcard behavior as well - maybe when these attributes
are left out.

1.4.2.2.6. LFBClassCapabilities
- What is this for? Wouldnt each LFB have its own config which is
outside the scope of the model?

1.5 Sample FE Attribute Document

- s/LFBInstance/LFBInstance

(see, i read the whole thing if i can catch the above typo ;->)

cheers,
jamal


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Subject: Re: FE Capabilities and attributes section of the model draft
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Thanks for taking the time to read this throughly and provide some useful
comments.

On the validation issue, we will need to work out procedures so that we
verify that the pieces in the document pass validation.

I will try to respond to your comments in line.

Joel

>Comments:
>- Something bothering me is the FEattribute piece however many times i
>stared at it. So i figured i would start from the ground up.
>Is it fair to say that "capabilities constitute attributes".
>That once you give these attributes values or parametrize them as the
>FEAttributes branch does, then now you are talking about state - which
>may be more closer to implementation details than to a model.
>I am not saying i have an answer on what would be a good way to resolve
>this. I think the FECapabilities piece is  well done. I just dont know
>what to make of the FEattributes - they dont taste too good. For example
>the FEAttributesType seems to be a scatter of a few things. Vendor,
>Model (maybe serial number and you could go further to say slotid etc)
>are more like Product Data (as in PCI VPD) whereas FEstatus seems to
>be an instanteous state of the FE and LFB* seem to be related
>instantiated LFB policies (or topologies). Its almost like FEAttributes
>is meant to be FERunningState.

The FE Attributes are certainly related to the FE state.  They are intended
to model the state aspects of the FE as a whole that the CE will need
cognizance of.  The examples I included are pretty weak, but we assume that
there will be some useful attributes.


>- The FE should probably have a name and provisioned numeric ID.

The FE presumably has / needs an identity.  However, whether it needs a
name, a numeric ID within the protocol, or merely an IP address is yet to
be determined.  If it is internal to the protocol, then it should be
reflected in the model.


>- FEConfiguredNeighborType is also one of those things that doesnt
>seem to really fit in that picture. Some of the pieces seem to fit into
>three different possible LFBs: Port, Neighbor and i dont know if you
>want to call IP address provisioning as an LFB. Which seems to me like
>we need at least some base LFBs to always be in the FE (i.e MUST) to
>satisfy the basic model. So maybe we should head that way with the
>model.

I would be happy to leave out FE Configured Neighbors entirely.  However,
the working group consensus is that it is FE level information that the
protocol needs to carry.  If the protocol will carry it, the model should
describe it.


>Other comments:
>
>1. FE Attributes and Capabilities
>"A ForCES forwarding element handles traffic on behalf of
>a ForCES control element.  While the standards will
>describe the protocol and mechanisms for this control,
>different implementations and different instances will
>have different capabilities"
>
>What is the last "instances" refering to?

What I was trying to say is that not only will differing designs of ForCES
boxes have different capabilities, but sometimes within a design different
specific boxes may have different capabilities (different customers might
plug in more or less memory, allowing more or fewer LFBs in some designs.)

There are a couple of cases where the text did not catch up with some last
minute name changes.  Thanks for noticing them, and we will fix them.


>1.4.2.1
>- Also would it not be OK to use CanOccurBefore and CanOccurAfter
>even for static topolgies as a way to capture the static topology?

You could use CanOccurBefore and CanOccurAfter to represent the topology
for static cases.  But since that does not represent the precise topology,
it seems better to set the "static topology" flag, and then use the
attributes which describe the current topology to accurately describe the
actual topology.  (After all, one could have a situation where there well
flexible instance connections but fixed type sequences.  That would still
be a dynamic topology, even if limited in the changes that the CE can make
to it.)


>1.4.2.2. SupportedLFBs and SupportedLFB
>
>I think each LFB with a name will end up getting some numeric ID
>probably issued by IANA. so a LFBId would be a good fit here.

You are probably right.  But I wanted to wait until we had made protocol
progress.  After all, if we were to switch to XML on the wire we would
probably use names instead of numbers.


>1.4.2.5
>- CanOccurBefore and CanOccurAfter: I think it would be good to state
>the "any" or wildcard behavior as well - maybe when these attributes
>are left out.

I thought I had specified the wildcard behavior.  I will make sure it is
in, as it is an important case.


>1.4.2.2.6. LFBClassCapabilities
>- What is this for? Wouldnt each LFB have its own config which is
>outside the scope of the model?

There are capabilities limitations that apply to an LFB Class even before
there are any instances of the class.  For example, the LFB Class may
define a port group.  The maximum number of ports allowed in that port
group is an implementation specific LFB Class level capability.  To phrase
this differently, there are capability questions about an LFB Class that
the CE may want / need to ask before it chooses to instantiate / examine
any instances of that class in the FE.  So there needs to be a table with
an entry per LFB Class holding those pieces of capability information.
This is something that caused us some confusion, and probably needs better
explanatory text.  I hope it will be easier to see once we have some LFB
Library elements to look at.


>cheers,
>jamal


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Subject: Re: FE Capabilities and attributes section of the model draft
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On Sat, 2004-01-31 at 18:11, Joel M. Halpern wrote:

> The FE Attributes are certainly related to the FE state.  They are intended
> to model the state aspects of the FE as a whole that the CE will need
> cognizance of.

Fine - its one of those greyish things.
FEAttributesType could be abstracted further into three categories:
- FEProductData = { vendor, model}
- LFBpolicyData = { LFBInstances, LFBTopology}
- FERunningState = { FEStatus, FEConfiguredNeighbor }

I dont think youll have to change SupportedAttributes if you rearranged
things.

> The examples I included are pretty weak, but we assume that
> there will be some useful attributes.

The example is OK i found. There could be more.

>
> >- The FE should probably have a name and provisioned numeric ID.
>
> The FE presumably has / needs an identity.  However, whether it needs a
> name, a numeric ID within the protocol, or merely an IP address is yet to
> be determined.  If it is internal to the protocol, then it should be
> reflected in the model.

The name or ID i am refering to are for more for management purposes;
Maybe its an implementation specific, so i will wait.
I am not sure the model should really reflect (or dictate)
the protocol.

> I would be happy to leave out FE Configured Neighbors entirely.  However,
> the working group consensus is that it is FE level information that the
> protocol needs to carry.  If the protocol will carry it, the model should
> describe it.
>

I see the value in having the detail but not sure thats where it fits
from an abstraction level.
Perhaps the Port and Neighbor information should be assumed to be very
basic that they need to be in the model. The problem is that detail is
redundant or seems to assume existence of knowledge elsewhere
(example NeighborInterface which assumes a Port LFB).
Do you foresee an FE with no port and Neighbordiscovery LFB?

> >1.4.2.1
> >- Also would it not be OK to use CanOccurBefore and CanOccurAfter
> >even for static topolgies as a way to capture the static topology?
>
> You could use CanOccurBefore and CanOccurAfter to represent the topology
> for static cases.  But since that does not represent the precise topology,
> it seems better to set the "static topology" flag, and then use the
> attributes which describe the current topology to accurately describe the
> actual topology.

By "current topology" above, do you mean whats described in LFBInstances
and LFBTopology i.e "currently configured" topology policy?

> (After all, one could have a situation where there well
> flexible instance connections but fixed type sequences.  That would still
> be a dynamic topology, even if limited in the changes that the CE can make
> to it.)
>

Heres an example of hardware i am aware of:
LFBA->LFBB->LFBC->LFBD being valid as well as ability to remove
one or both of LFBB and LFBC from a topolgy instance with no other
sequences being valid. This is semi static. Is this what you are
refering to above?

>
> >1.4.2.2. SupportedLFBs and SupportedLFB
> >
> >I think each LFB with a name will end up getting some numeric ID
> >probably issued by IANA. so a LFBId would be a good fit here.
>
> You are probably right.  But I wanted to wait until we had made protocol
> progress.  After all, if we were to switch to XML on the wire we would
> probably use names instead of numbers.
>

That sounds reasonable, but again note that danger of tying the model to
the protocol - dont make any assumptions about what representation is
useful. Binary encoding is useful to avoid latencies.
I think it is OK to have both binary and XML but the model shouldnt
assume one or the other - and if you end up predicting wrong, it wouldnt
harm to waste another 32 bit (since you are gracious to waste more with
XML;->). Whether its a name or ID or both someone is going to have to
maintain them for sanity purposes.

>
> >1.4.2.2.6. LFBClassCapabilities
> >- What is this for? Wouldnt each LFB have its own config which is
> >outside the scope of the model?
>
> There are capabilities limitations that apply to an LFB Class even before
> there are any instances of the class.  For example, the LFB Class may
> define a port group.  The maximum number of ports allowed in that port
> group is an implementation specific LFB Class level capability.  To phrase
> this differently, there are capability questions about an LFB Class that
> the CE may want / need to ask before it chooses to instantiate / examine
> any instances of that class in the FE.  So there needs to be a table with
> an entry per LFB Class holding those pieces of capability information.
> This is something that caused us some confusion, and probably needs better
> explanatory text.  I hope it will be easier to see once we have some LFB
> Library elements to look at.
>

I think i am still confused. Will wait for those library elements.

cheers,
jamal


