
2001
Message-Id: <THU.30.AUG.2001.141610.0200.>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:16:10 +0200
From: Patrick Droz <dro@zurich.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM Research Division
Subject: minutes #3
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Attached the minutes again with some rephrasing in the
netlink section.

Regards,
Patrick
--------------9756066A00540AA042C75AA4
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ForCES Working Group Meeting Minutes from the 51th IETF, London UK
------------------------------------------------------------------

Meeting Agenda
--------------

- Agenda Bashing
- WG Charter
- Linux Netlink Draft
- 2 Requirements Drafts

Welcome and Charter Status
--------------------------

There were about 200 people attending the first ForCES meeting.
Unfortunately there was only one blue-sheet available so many people
did not have the chance to sign it in the given time.  ForCES is now
an official IETF Working Group. This was confirmed by Rob Coltun
(routing area director). A short summary was given concerning the
status after Joint meeting with the GSMP WG at the last IETF.

  - Agreed that ForCES is a separate effort
  - Strong encouragement to examine GSMP as a candidate
    protocol when the time comes
  - The IESG added a statement to the charter that the WG
    has to use an existing protocol in case the distance
    between a CE and FE is multi-hop in compliance to
    RFC 2914

There were no question concerning the charter.

I-D Presentations
-----------------

1) Netlink as an IP services protocol (draft-salim-netlink-jhshk-00.txt)
by Jamal Hadi Salim, Znyx

Jamal showed that there are some commonalities between what ForCES
wants to a achieve and what the Netlink interface can provide. He also
showed that the Netlink the way it stands today is not sufficient for
a distributed setup required for ForCES. Netlink originates from BSD
route socket. It was originally only used for routing information but
this has been expanded. The concept is based on the idea of "IP
service" abstraction and asynchronous event notification. Flow-graphs
were presented and the message format which makes use of TLVs was
introduced. As an example IPv4 forwarding functionality was shown. It
was agreed that the draft would become an informational. Comments from
the mic indicated that PFkey could also be considered. Jamal's
response was that PFkey is a subset of Netlink i.e it is another IP
service. The IPSEC folks decided to use PFkey because it was
standardized for IPSEC and therefore widely deployed. They had
started with netlink on Linux, but had to change for standardization
reasons. It was also noted that the documentation of Netlink is
somewhat lacking. I-Ds in the space seem to be welcome. Further
comments on the mice from Steve Willis asked first to get a problem
statement before jumping into the solution.  Furthermore, a
requirements document will be needed. Afterward should follow an
architecture document.

2) Requirements for Separation of IP Control and Forwarding Services
    (draft-salim-forces-alt-jhs-00.txt) by Jamal Hadi Salim Znyx

Jamal presented his framework draft which is a lot more generic
compared to his first presentation. It allows for more than one
control element (CE) to control an forwarding element (FE). It is also
open whether the FE and CE are Co-located or not. Even a multi-box
environment could be supported where FEs and CEs can physically be
separated. Every CE can control multiple of FEs. There are also
requirements for gathering statistics. People at the mic suggested
also to include classification engines and QoS engines. It was also
suggested to use a more generic term such as "data-plane engine" instead
of FE. The interaction between CEs and FEs is defined as an offering
of service to each other. It is also suggested to have multicast
capabilities. Jamal suggested to define the exact functionality of
"forwarding" that includes all the things that can happen to the date
being forwarded.

3) Requirements for Separation of IP Control and Forwarding
    (draft-anderson-forces-req-02.txt) by Todd Anderson, Intel
     and Ed Bowen IBM

Todd presented the changes that had been made since version 01.
Unfortunately the draft did not make the official dead-line but it was
posted to the list. He presented New requirements that were discussed
on the mailing list that are still open issues were presented. This
includes resource notification and partitioning. This would allow that
an FE is only a subset of resources of a box. That is motivated by the
portioning discussions in the GSMP working group. A second new
requirement is to come up with an exact model of an FE. It is the way
and FE can tell a CE how it looks like and what in can to for the
CE. The CE can in this way discover what can happing to the data while
traversing the data plane. But the FE should still be kept as simple
as possible a CE should be able to tell an FE that it does not want to
be controlled at all by the FE. Thus most of the complexity could be
kept in the CEs. This particularly applies in the case where the FE
is just a fast packet forwarding engine without much intelligence.
Then the list of the already established requirements was give which
include:

- CEs and FEs can be connected by various types of interconnects
- Inter-FE forwarding should be possible
- A packet that traverses a single hop consisting of more than one
  physical device should be treated as a single hope e.g. only
  decrement TTL by 1.
- ForCES will require a protocol
- Mans have to be provide to detect loss of connectivity
- Packet redirection has to be provided
- It must support different types of FEs
- It must allow for topology discovery
= It must be scalable
- It most provide event notification

What is still open is whether the communication between the FE and
CE should be reliable or not.

Conclusions
-----------

To to the strong overlap of the 2 requirements documents the 3 authors
were asked to merge their document into a ingle one and resolve some
of the open issues either directly or on the mailing list. This was
the consensus of the group. The draft on Netlink was accepted as an
informational draft.

Thanks to Alan Crouch for taking the minutes.


List and Archive Info
---------------------

General Discussion:forces@peach.ease.lsoft.com
To Subscribe: listserv@peach.ease.lsoft.com
In Body: subscribe forces (your name)
Archive: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/FORCES.html




--------------9756066A00540AA042C75AA4--



2001
Message-Id: <WED.29.AUG.2001.152621.0200.>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:26:21 +0200
From: Patrick Droz <dro@zurich.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM Research Division
Subject: updated minutes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9868693F010B248B8C4764A9"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------9868693F010B248B8C4764A9
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

after input from Jamal on the netlink versus Pfkey stuff,
here the updated minutes.

Regards,
Patrick
--------------9868693F010B248B8C4764A9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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ForCES Working Group Meeting Minutes from the 51th IETF, London UK
------------------------------------------------------------------

Meeting Agenda
--------------

- Agenda Bashing
- WG Charter
- Linux Netlink Draft
- 2 Requirements Drafts

Welcome and Charter Status
--------------------------

There were about 200 people attending the first ForCES meeting.
Unfortunately there was only one blue-sheet available so many people
did not have the chance to sign it in the given time.  ForCES is now
an official IETF Working Group. This was confirmed by Rob Coltun
(routing area director). A short summary was given concerning the
status after Joint meeting with the GSMP WG at the last IETF.

  - Agreed that ForCES is a separate effort
  - Strong encouragement to examine GSMP as a candidate
    protocol when the time comes
  - The IESG added a statement to the charter that the WG
    has to use an existing protocol in case the distance
    between a CE and FE is multi-hop in compliance to
    RFC 2914

There were no question concerning the charter.

I-D Presentations
-----------------

1) Netlink as an IP services protocol (draft-salim-netlink-jhshk-00.txt)
by Jamal Hadi Salim, Znyx

Jamal showed that there are some commonalities between what ForCES
wants to a achieve and what the Netlink interface can provide. He also
showed that the Netlink the way it stands today is not sufficient but
it has some good ideas. The Netlink goes back to to the route
socket. It was originally only used for routing information but this
has been extended lately. The concept is based on asynchronous event
notification. Flow-graphs were presented and the message format which
makes use of TLVs was introduced. As an example IPv4 forwarding
functionality was shown. It was agreed that the draft would become an
informational-draft. Comment from the mic indicated that PFkey
could also be considered. The IPSEC folks decided to use PFkey because
it was standardized and therefore widely deployed. They had started
with netlink on Linux, but had to change. It was also noted that
the documentation of Netlink is somewhat lacking. PFpolicy is
currently being developed. I-Ds in the space seem to be
welcome. Further comments on the mice from Steve Willis asked first to
get a problem statement before jumping into the solution
space. Furthermore, a requirements document will be needed. Afterward
should follow an architecture document.

2) Requirements for Separation of IP Control and Forwarding Services
    (draft-salim-forces-alt-jhs-00.txt) by Jamal Hadi Salim Znyx

Jamal presented his framework draft which is a lot more generic
compared to his first presentation. It allows for more than one
control element (CE) to control an forwarding element (FE). It is also
open whether the FE and CE are Co-located or not. Even a multi-box
environment could be supported where FEs and CEs can physically be
separated. Every CE can control multiple of FEs. There are also
requirements for gathering statistics. People at the mic suggested
also to include classification engines and QoS engines. It was also
suggested to use a more generic term such as "data-plane engine" instead
of FE. The interaction between CEs and FEs is defined as an offering
of service to each other. It is also suggested to have multicast
capabilities. Jamal suggested to define the exact functionality of
"forwarding" that includes all the things that can happen to the date
being forwarded.

3) Requirements for Separation of IP Control and Forwarding
    (draft-anderson-forces-req-02.txt) by Todd Anderson, Intel
     and Ed Bowen IBM

Todd presented the changes that had been made since version 01.
Unfortunately the draft did not make the official dead-line but it was
posted to the list. He presented New requirements that were discussed
on the mailing list that are still open issues were presented. This
includes resource notification and partitioning. This would allow that
an FE is only a subset of resources of a box. That is motivated by the
portioning discussions in the GSMP working group. A second new
requirement is to come up with an exact model of an FE. It is the way
and FE can tell a CE how it looks like and what in can to for the
CE. The CE can in this way discover what can happing to the data while
traversing the data plane. But the FE should still be kept as simple
as possible a CE should be able to tell an FE that it does not want to
be controlled at all by the FE. Thus most of the complexity could be
kept in the CEs. This particularly applies in the case where the FE
is just a fast packet forwarding engine without much intelligence.
Then the list of the already established requirements was give which
include:

- CEs and FEs can be connected by various types of interconnects
- Inter-FE forwarding should be possible
- A packet that traverses a single hop consisting of more than one
  physical device should be treated as a single hope e.g. only
  decrement TTL by 1.
- ForCES will require a protocol
- Mans have to be provide to detect loss of connectivity
- Packet redirection has to be provided
- It must support different types of FEs
- It must allow for topology discovery
= It must be scalable
- It most provide event notification

What is still open is whether the communication between the FE and
CE should be reliable or not.

Conclusions
-----------

To to the strong overlap of the 2 requirements documents the 3 authors
were asked to merge their document into a ingle one and resolve some
of the open issues either directly or on the mailing list. This was
the consensus of the group. The draft on Netlink was accepted as an
informational draft.

Thanks to Alan Crouch for taking the minutes.


List and Archive Info
---------------------

General Discussion:forces@peach.ease.lsoft.com
To Subscribe: listserv@peach.ease.lsoft.com
In Body: subscribe forces (your name)
Archive: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/FORCES.html




--------------9868693F010B248B8C4764A9--


2001
Message-Id: <MON.27.AUG.2001.122820.0700.>
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:28:20 -0700
From: "Putzolu, David" <david.putzolu@intel.com>
Subject: ForCES Requirements Document Design Team
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

All,

The following people have volunteered and been accepted
as the ForCES Requirements Document design team:

Todd Anderson
Ed Bowen
Ram Dantu
Avri Doria
Hormuzd Khosravi
Muneyb Minhazuddin
Jamal Hadi Salim
Margaret Wasserman

The first task of the design team will be to produce a forces
requirements document that represents the requirements common
to both of the previous individual requirements contributions.

As always, feedback and suggestions for the requirements and other
technical issues related to forces are welcome and should be done
on the list.  The design team was formed in order to help to make
rapid progress on the requiements document and will be responsible
for integrating the feedback of the list into the document as we
go forward.

Cheers,
David


2001
Message-Id: <MON.27.AUG.2001.094014.0200.>
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:40:14 +0200
From: Patrick Droz <dro@zurich.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM Research Division
Subject: ForCES Minutes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4FCC73488FD7BC2C5DF2F1A8"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------4FCC73488FD7BC2C5DF2F1A8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Attached are the minutes from the last meeting in London.
Comments / corrections welcome.

Regards,
Patrick
--------------4FCC73488FD7BC2C5DF2F1A8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
 name="minutes_51.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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 filename="minutes_51.txt"

ForCES Working Group Meeting Minutes from the 51th IETF, London UK
------------------------------------------------------------------

Meeting Agenda
--------------

- Agenda Bashing
- WG Charter
- Linux Netlink Draft
- 2 Requirements Drafts

Welcome and Charter Status
--------------------------

There were about 200 people attending the first ForCES meeting.
Unfortunately there was only one blue-sheet available so many people
did not have the chance to sign it in the given time.  ForCES is now
an official IETF Working Group. This was confirmed by Rob Coltun
(routing area director). A short summary was given concerning the
status after Joint meeting with the GSMP WG at the last IETF.

  - Agreed that ForCES is a separate effort
  - Strong encouragement to examine GSMP as a candidate
    protocol when the time comes
  - The IESG added a statement to the charter that the WG
    has to use an existing protocol in case the distance
    between a CE and FE is multi-hop in compliance to
    RFC 2914

There were no question concerning the charter.

I-D Presentations
-----------------

1) Netlink as an IP services protocol (draft-salim-netlink-jhshk-00.txt)
by Jamal Hadi Salim, Znyx

Jamal showed that there are some commonalities between what ForCES
wants to a achieve and what the Netlink interface can provide. He also
showed that the Netlink the way it stands today is not sufficient but
it has some good ideas. The Netlink goes back to to the route
socket. It was originally only used for routing information but this
has been extended lately. The concept is based on asynchronous event
notification. Flow-graphs were presented and the message format which
makes use of TLVs was introduced. As an example IPv4 forwarding
functionality was shown. It was agreed that the draft would become an
informational-draft. Comment from the mic indicated that people had
used the Netlink but finally decided to go with PFkey which supported
on multiple platforms rather than only Linux. It was also noted that
the documentation of Netlink is somewhat lacking.  PFpolicy is
currently being developed. I-Ds in the space seem to be
welcome. Further comments on the mice from Steve Willis asked fist to
get a problem statement before jumping into the solution
space. Furthermore a requirements document will be needed. Afterward
should follow an architecture document.

2) Requirements for Separation of IP Control and Forwarding Services
    (draft-salim-forces-alt-jhs-00.txt) by Jamal Hadi Salim Znyx

Jamal presented his framework draft which is a lot more generic
compared to his first presentation. It allows for more than one
control element (CE) to control an forwarding element (FE). It is also
open whether the FE and CE are Co-located or not. Even a multi-box
environment could be supported where FEs and CEs can physically be
separated. Every CE can control multiple of FEs. There are also
requirements for gathering statistics. People at the mic suggested
also to include classification engines and QoS engines. It was also
suggested to use a more generic term such as "data-plane engine" instead
of FE. The interaction between CEs and FEs is defined as an offering
of service to each other. It is also suggested to have multicast
capabilities. Jamal suggested to define the exact functionality of
"forwarding" that includes all the things that can happen to the date
being forwarded.

3) Requirements for Separation of IP Control and Forwarding
    (draft-anderson-forces-req-02.txt) by Todd Anderson, Intel
     and Ed Bowen IBM

Todd presented the changes that had been made since version 01.
Unfortunately the draft did not make the official dead-line but it was
posted to the list. He presented New requirements that were discussed
on the mailing list that are still open issues were presented. This
includes resource notification and partitioning. This would allow that
an FE is only a subset of resources of a box. That is motivated by the
portioning discussions in the GSMP working group. A second new
requirement is to come up with an exact model of an FE. It is the way
and FE can tell a CE how it looks like and what in can to for the
CE. The CE can in this way discover what can happing to the data while
traversing the data plane. But the FE should still be kept as simple
as possible a CE should be able to tell an FE that it does not want to
be controlled at all by the FE. Thus most of the complexity could be
kept in the CEs. This particularly applies in the case where the FE
is just a fast packet forwarding engine without much intelligence.
Then the list of the already established requirements was give which
include:

- CEs and FEs can be connected by various types of interconnects
- Inter-FE forwarding should be possible
- A packet that traverses a single hop consisting of more than one
  physical device should be treated as a single hope e.g. only
  decrement TTL by 1.
- ForCES will require a protocol
- Mans have to be provide to detect loss of connectivity
- Packet redirection has to be provided
- It must support different types of FEs
- It must allow for topology discovery
= It must be scalable
- It most provide event notification

What is still open is whether the communication between the FE and
CE should be reliable or not.

Conclusions
-----------

To to the strong overlap of the 2 requirements documents the 3 authors
were asked to merge their document into a ingle one and resolve some
of the open issues either directly or on the mailing list. This was
the consensus of the group. The draft on Netlink was accepted as an
informational draft.

Thanks to Alan Crouch for taking the minutes.


List and Archive Info
---------------------

General Discussion:forces@peach.ease.lsoft.com
To Subscribe: listserv@peach.ease.lsoft.com
In Body: subscribe forces (your name)
Archive: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/FORCES.html




--------------4FCC73488FD7BC2C5DF2F1A8--


2001
Message-Id: <FRI.24.AUG.2001.124448.0400.>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:44:48 -0400
From: Frank Solensky <FSolensky@gothamnetworks.com>
Subject: Re: requirements cont'd
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Not to be a complete pain but for the benefit of those who don't do Windows,
would it be possible to send this as a text file instead next time?

Thanks..                                -- Frank


2001
Message-Id: <THU.23.AUG.2001.105949.0400.>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:59:49 -0400
From: Alan DeKok <aland@solidum.com>
Organization: Solidum Inc.
Subject: Re: requirements cont'd
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"Anderson, Todd A" wrote:
>
> The main items at this point that are being discussed include:
> 1) Do we want a requirement stating we should not increase the
> number of points of management in the network.

  I would agree with this, if only for the fact that additional points
of management introduce additional complexity, and make the system
harder to secure.

>  What does this mean anyway?

  I'm not completely sure, sorry.

> 2) What requirements, if any, do we want to place around the
> discovery process by which CE's and FE's initially become
> connected with one another.

  The obvious, at least.  It should be fast, low overhead, and
reliable.  It should provide for discovery (broadcast?) or
pre-configured connection maps.

> 3) What do we want to say about what should happen when such
> connectivity is lost?

  I'm not sure.

> 4) Protocol reliability.  Must every message be delivered reliably?

  I would turn that around.  Which uses of ForCES would require reliable
message delivery?  Which would be able to live with unreliable delivery?


  From the point of view of a classification company, we want reliable
delivery of updates to the classifiers.  If we add 100 ACL rules, and
rule 10 is lost in the delivery, then the resulting rule set is not only
wrong, it's horrifically wrong.  We would rather have the box not do
anything than do something wrong.

  Alan DeKok.


2001
Message-Id: <THU.23.AUG.2001.003530.0700.>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:35:30 -0700
From: "Anderson, Todd A" <todd.a.anderson@intel.com>
Subject: requirements cont'd
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C12BA6.2F491A10"

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_000_01C12BA6.2F491A10
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"

Just to establish a baseline for further discussion, I've taken the latest
requirements draft and taken out all the points that have caused a lot of
debate.  I'll list those later.  What remains are things on which we seem to

have consensus.  Not that it can't be discussed later but if anyone has an
issue with the requirements in the included draft, please let me know so
that I can keep a list of items people wish to discuss.

The main items at this point that are being discussed include:
1) Do we want a requirement stating we should not increase the
number of points of management in the network.  What does this
mean anyway?  How significant does something have to be to be
considered too heavy weight for a FE?
2) What requirements, if any, do we want to place around the
discovery process by which CE's and FE's initially become
connected with one another.
3) What do we want to say about what should happen when such
connectivity is lost?
4) Protocol reliability.  Must every message be delivered reliably?

Todd A. Anderson
Intel Architecture Labs


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2001
Message-Id: <TUE.21.AUG.2001.143110.0200.>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:31:10 +0200
From: Patrick Droz <dro@zurich.ibm.com>
Organization: IBM Research Division
Subject: Re: ForCES London Meeting SUmmary
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tom,

Rob basically said that it would have to be TCP or SCTP.

Regards,
Patrick

tom worster wrote:
>
> From: Putzolu, David
> >
> > This was the first official meeting of the wg. The first order of
> > business was a summary changes to the charter made since Minneapolis.
> > These changes include addition of using an RFC2914 compliant
> > L4 protocol for transport of ForCES PDUs in the multi-hop scenario
> > and addition of an applicability statement.
>
> what is "an rfc2914 compliant l4 protocol?"
>
> to me, this sounds like it might be an indirect way to
> require the use of ecn >8-O
>
> c u
> fsb


2001
Message-Id: <TUE.21.AUG.2001.135848.0400.>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:58:48 -0400
From: Alan DeKok <aland@solidum.com>
Organization: Solidum Inc.
Subject: Re: ForCES London Meeting SUmmary
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Eric Gray wrote:
>
> So, the one thing I would really like to see is for the IETF (or rather its
> 'members') to stop trying to find excuses for using everybody's new
> favorite protocol.

  I agree.  Why re-invent the wheel when you can steal one?

> How many ruggedized versions of SCTP are currently deployed in
> the Internet?

  I'm not sure what you mean by "ruggedized", but I don't think that
SCTP is in wide distribution.

  However, the AAA group is using SCTP, so there is precedent here.

  Alan DeKok.


2001
Message-Id: <TUE.21.AUG.2001.111517.0400.>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:15:17 -0400
From: Eric Gray <eric.gray@sandburst.com>
Subject: Re: ForCES London Meeting SUmmary
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

So, the one thing I would really like to see is for the IETF (or rather its

'members') to stop trying to find excuses for using everybody's new
favorite protocol.

How many ruggedized versions of SCTP are currently deployed in
the Internet?

--
Eric Gray

Alan DeKok wrote:

> Patrick Droz wrote:
> >
> > Rob basically said that it would have to be TCP or SCTP.
>
>   I'll open a can of worms here, by entering the religious wars of
> "which protocol is better".
>
>   TCP is nice for what it does: eventually getting a chunk of data from
> one machine to another.
>
>   SCTP is nice for what it does: quickly getting an ordered series of
> messages from one machine to another.
>
>   Do we have a list of criteria, to help us decide which protocol to
> use?
>
>   Alan DeKok.


2001
Message-Id: <TUE.21.AUG.2001.110144.0400.>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:01:44 -0400
From: tom worster <tom@ennovatenetworks.com>
Subject: Re: ForCES London Meeting SUmmary
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

From: Alan DeKok
>
>   TCP is nice for what it does: eventually getting a chunk of
> data from
> one machine to another.
>
>   SCTP is nice for what it does: quickly getting an ordered series of
> messages from one machine to another.
>
>   Do we have a list of criteria, to help us decide which protocol to
> use?

not yet.

and the question may turn out to be moot in
any case, e.g. if forces elects to use gsmp.

c u
fsb


2001
Message-Id: <TUE.21.AUG.2001.105244.0400.>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:52:44 -0400
From: Alan DeKok <aland@solidum.com>
Organization: Solidum Inc.
Subject: Re: ForCES London Meeting SUmmary
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patrick Droz wrote:
>
> Rob basically said that it would have to be TCP or SCTP.

  I'll open a can of worms here, by entering the religious wars of
"which protocol is better".

  TCP is nice for what it does: eventually getting a chunk of data from
one machine to another.

  SCTP is nice for what it does: quickly getting an ordered series of
messages from one machine to another.


  Do we have a list of criteria, to help us decide which protocol to
use?

  Alan DeKok.


2001
Message-Id: <TUE.21.AUG.2001.095610.0700.>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:56:10 -0700
From: "Putzolu, David" <david.putzolu@intel.com>
Subject: (Administrivia) Spam Hopefully Fixed
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

All,

The forces list has been reconfigured so that it no longer
automatically distributes messages from senders who are
not subscribed.  All such messages will be forwarded to the
list owner who will then either forward the email to the
list (any relevant message) or delete it (spam).

I welcome suggestions for alternative approaches to
controlling spam.  However, I would ask that such suggestions
be made directly to me rather than to the list at large, as
listserv administration and spam defense is not topical to
forces.  Anyone wishing to publicly discuss these issues
should direct their concerns to the Poisson working group
(Process for Organization of Internet Standards ONg) - URL
below.

http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/poisson-charter.html

Cheers,
David Putzolu
(list administrator)


2001
Message-Id: <MON.20.AUG.2001.125500.0700.>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:55:00 -0700
From: "David M. Putzolu" <dputzolu@aracnet.com>
Subject: [Test] Spam Response Measures
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

I am running some tests to make sure that some spam defense
measures being put in place are working. Please ignore this
email - an email explaining the changes being made will
be sent to the list shortly once all the bugs are worked out.
If you have any questions or problems posting to the list
please email me directly at David.Putzolu@intel.com.

Cheers,
David Putzolu


2001
Message-Id: <MON.20.AUG.2001.100439.0700.>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:04:39 -0700
From: Rob Long <roblong@VERIOMAIL.COM>
Subject: Need a Home Loan? We Can Help!!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001__2081326_36279.55"

This is a Multipart MIME message.

------=_NextPart_000_001__2081326_36279.55
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------=_NextPart_000_001__2081326_36279.55--


2001
Message-Id: <MON.20.AUG.2001.055100.0700.>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 05:51:00 -0700
From: Bob Long <robertlong@VERIOMAIL.COM>
Subject: Need a Home Loan? We Can Help!!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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------=_NextPart_000_001__13793551_3231.1--


2001
Message-Id: <FRI.17.AUG.2001.145638.0700.>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:56:38 -0700
From: Yoichi Hariguchi <yoichi@YOTTANET.COM>
Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what to do <C1256AA7.00393FB6.00@Bemail06.net.alcatel.be>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi.


I am sorry if I misunderstand the context of the discussion.


At around Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:25:17 +0200,
Francis Arts <francis.arts@ALCATEL.BE> wrote:

francis.arts> Patrick,
francis.arts>
francis.arts> I should have phrased my statement clearer. I agree that if the CE is dead, also the routing protocols are not running anymore. However, this implies that the routing protocols in the surrounding routers will see that their routing adjacency towards the
francis.arts> router with the dead CE has gone. Therefore, they stop forwarding traffic to the router with the dead CE.

If my memory serves me right, the FEs in the current routers do
not stop forwarding even when the CE is dead or reboots.

Let us think about the router reboot case. In this case, no
route change happens after a router (running OSPF) reboots.

So the FEs on the rebooted router tries to continue to forward
packets based on their FIBs. However, as Francis pointed out,
since the adjacency information is lost, the OSPF processes on
the adjacent routers flush entire routes in their FIBs. Then
the traffic stops.

The motivation of "Hitless OSPF Restart"
(draft-ietf-ospf-hitless-restart-00.txt) is to prevent this
phenomenon.


At around Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:09:39 -0400,
Radu Iorgulescu <radu@ONEXCO.COM> wrote:

radu> Another scenario can be the FE using outdating routing info, although
radu> the CE is running properly.

There are ways to avoid this scenario without communication
between FEs and the CE. I implemented one way to keep the FE's
forwarding table updated before.



Best regards,
Yoichi


2001
Message-Id: <FRI.17.AUG.2001.131612.0400.>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:16:12 -0400
From: tom worster <tom@ENNOVATENETWORKS.COM>
Subject: Re: ForCES London Meeting SUmmary
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

From: Putzolu, David
>
> This was the first official meeting of the wg. The first order of
> business was a summary changes to the charter made since Minneapolis.
> These changes include addition of using an RFC2914 compliant
> L4 protocol for transport of ForCES PDUs in the multi-hop scenario
> and addition of an applicability statement.

what is "an rfc2914 compliant l4 protocol?"

to me, this sounds like it might be an indirect way to
require the use of ecn >8-O

c u
fsb


2001
Message-Id: <FRI.17.AUG.2001.094419.0700.>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:44:19 -0700
From: "Putzolu, David" <david.putzolu@INTEL.COM>
Subject: ForCES London Meeting SUmmary
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

This is a brief summary for ForCES participants who were unable
to attend the ForCES wg meeting held at IETF 51 in London.
The meeting minutes will be published at a later date.

This was the first official meeting of the wg. The first order of
business was a summary changes to the charter made since Minneapolis.
These changes include addition of using an RFC2914 compliant
L4 protocol for transport of ForCES PDUs in the multi-hop scenario
and addition of an applicability statement.

Jamal Hadi Salim presented an informational contribution about Linux
Netlink.  There were concerns about this being a jump into solution
space.  It was clarified that this was relevant prior art but not
intended to be a proposed protocol for ForCES at this point. A sense
of the room was taken and it was decided that this document would be
accepted as an informational contribution to the wg. RFC 2367 was
also mentioned as relevant prior art.

Jamal and Todd Anderson then presented two sets of requirements drafts.
There was significant overlap with divergence on a couple of key points
(most importantly, on the question of whether the FE offers services to the
CE or the CE offers services to the FE). It was agreed that a design team
would be formed to immediately issue a new draft based on the requirements
common to both drafts. This consensus requirements doc will be accepted as
a wg document (pending a brief review on the mailing list). The design team
will continue work on the requirements to resolve the remaining
differences.

Draft URLs:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-salim-netlink-jhshk-00.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-salim-forces-alt-jhs-00.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-anderson-forces-req-01.txt


2001
Message-Id: <FRI.17.AUG.2001.070236.0400.>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 07:02:36 -0400
Comments: RFC822 error: <W> Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored.
From: Internet-Drafts@IETF.ORG
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-amenyo-consion-sigint-optnet-00.txt
Comments: cc: mpls@uu.net, ip-optical@lists.bell-labs.com, ccamp@ops.ietf.org, iporpr@external.cisco.com, gsmp@revnetworks.com, ppvpn@zephion.net, te-wg@ops.ietf.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart"

--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


        Title           : ConSION: Control & Signaling Intelligence Overlay
                          Ntworks for Optical Networking
        Author(s)       : J. Amenyo
        Filename        : draft-amenyo-consion-sigint-optnet-00.txt
        Pages           : 15
        Date            : 16-Aug-01

When one extrapolates from the ongoing evolutionary trends of IP
router / switch development and its role in the build-out of optical
core, edge, access and enterprise networks, it is reasonable to
reach the almost inescapable conclusion that within a few years,
there will be a complete physical separation of the commercial
equipment embodying various concerns, aspects, roles and functions
of data communications, Namely,
1. Separate equipment for transport (transmission, switching and
multiplexing) and traffic forwarding.
2. Separate equipment concerned with control, signaling, traffic
engineering, provisioning, protection and restoration control, as
well as, traffic and flow management, (generalized 'softswitches').
3. Separate equipment for network management, operations support,
measurement & metering, OAMP, inter-OSS, engineering management
(including performance management, availability management, security
management, accounting management), as well as life cycle support.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-amenyo-consion-sigint-optnet-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
        "get draft-amenyo-consion-sigint-optnet-00.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
        mailserv@ietf.org.
In the body type:
        "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-amenyo-consion-sigint-optnet-00.txt".

NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
        MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
        feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
        command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
        a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
        exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
        "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
        up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
        how to manipulate these messages.


Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.

--NextPart
Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess"

--OtherAccess
Content-Type: Message/External-body;
        access-type="mail-server";
        server="mailserv@ietf.org"

Content-Type: text/plain
Content-ID:     <20010816080136.I-D@ietf.org>

ENCODING mime
FILE /internet-drafts/draft-amenyo-consion-sigint-optnet-00.txt

--OtherAccess
Content-Type: Message/External-body;
        name="draft-amenyo-consion-sigint-optnet-00.txt";
        site="ftp.ietf.org";
        access-type="anon-ftp";
        directory="internet-drafts"

Content-Type: text/plain
Content-ID:     <20010816080136.I-D@ietf.org>

--OtherAccess--

--NextPart--


2001
Message-Id: <THU.16.AUG.2001.155123.0200.>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:51:23 +0200
From: Francis Arts <francis.arts@ALCATEL.BE>
Subject: Requirements
Comments: cc: brockmas@se.bel.alcatel.be
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hello,

I have a question on draft-salim-forces-alt-jhs-00. This draft states the following:

"(7) In the case of a CP residing on a remote device or on some propri-
     etary device, it MAY have a proxy on an FE controller. The protocol
     between the proxy and FE MUST be that defined by ForCES.  The pro-
     tocol between the device and the CP is left to the implementation."

Does this mean that the CP and the FE can be located on different NEs?

Kind regards,

     Francis.


2001
Message-Id: <TUE.14.AUG.2001.090447.0400.>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:04:47 -0400
From: Ilija Hadzic <ihadzic@RESEARCH.BELL-LABS.COM>
Subject: SPAM on this list (was: Change Life Now)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Folks:

Recently there has been an increased volume of spam on this list. Is there
anything that the list administrators can do about it ?.... I know that
moderating the list requires a lot of volunteer work, but the amount of
noise generated by the spam has started to exceed the tolerance
threshold.

Ilija


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2001
Message-Id: <TUE.14.AUG.2001.084616.0700.>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 08:46:16 -0700
From: "Anderson, Todd A" <todd.a.anderson@INTEL.COM>
Subject: Re: latest version of ForCES requirements document
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

There is an existing protocol (i.e., GSMP) that handles the
switching of "labeled" traffic.  My interpretation of the
charter is that if it is IP inside of a MPLS header we
shouldn't care and therefore control of switching is out of
scope and should be left to GSMP.  Where there is a conversion
from IP to MPLS (or vice versa), such as a DSLAM, we may have
work to do in this space.

Todd

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Radu Iorgulescu [mailto:radu@ONEXCO.COM]
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 7:30 AM
> To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: [FORCES] latest version of ForCES requirements document
>
>
> Todd:
>
> This includes devices that deal with both unlabeled and labeled IP
> traffic, right?
> Radu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
> [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Anderson, Todd A
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 11:39 AM
> To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: [FORCES] latest version of ForCES requirements document
>
> > > supporting frame, atm and ds1, e1 access quickly
> > > leads to a very large number of logical i/o
> > > channels (ports). it's not uncommon for today's
> > > chips to support well over 1k.
> >
> > Out of curiosity, do we wanna deal with anything other than
> > IP capable devices or we dont care?
>
> The charter says IP devices only.
>
> Todd
>


2001
Message-Id: <TUE.14.AUG.2001.010236.AM.>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 01:02:36 AM
From: george.davies@CWW.COM
Subject: Change Life Now
Comments: To: suz1@soho.net

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This mailing was done by an independent mailing company.To be removed from all of our services, please send an e-mail to removemenow@soho.comSimply type your e-mail address in the subject line, and you will not be bothered by us again.  If you would like to continue your membership to our service, simply do nothing, and we look forward to serving you!

Tired of getting loads of paper advertsiements in the mailbox every day?
Tired of spending your own time watching commercials?
Support e-mail advertising.
Save the tress, save the planet, and save your time!
Just delete with one simple keystroke.


2001
Message-Id: <MON.13.AUG.2001.210634.0200.>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 21:06:34 +0200
From: Francis Arts <francis.arts@ALCATEL.BE>
Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what to do
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Radu,

Your mail states the following:
"... In this case, it is the CE that determines
that the FE did not process the routing changes and asks the adjacencies
to re-route the traffic."

I am not clear on the idea you have in mind. In particular, could you clarify the following 2 questions:

1) How can the CE determine that the FE did not process the routing changes? Is exactly this the point of reliable communication that you pinpoint?

2) How can the CE ask the adajcencies to reroute the traffic?

Kind regards,

     Francis.

------------------------------





Radu Iorgulescu <radu@ONEXCO.COM> on 13/08/2001 18:09:39




 To:      FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM

 cc:      (bcc: Francis ARTS/BE/ALCATEL)



 Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what
          to do






Francis,

I agree with you that the adjacent nodes have to determine that the CE
is dead and re-route.
Another scenario can be the FE using outdating routing info, although
the CE is running properly. In this case, it is the CE that determines
that the FE did not process the routing changes and asks the adjacencies
to re-route the traffic (this is one of the reasons I mentioned in
another email that the CE-FE connectivity must not be reliable at the
transport level but at the 'message-processing' level).
Radu

-----Original Message-----
From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
[mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Francis Arts
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 6:25 AM
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: [FORCES] CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what to
do

Patrick,

I should have phrased my statement clearer. I agree that if the CE is
dead, also the routing protocols are not running anymore. However, this
implies that the routing protocols in the surrounding routers will see
that their routing adjacency towards the
router with the dead CE has gone. Therefore, they stop forwarding
traffic to the router with the dead CE.

Kind regards,

     Francis.

-------------------------





Patrick Droz <dro@ZURICH.IBM.COM> on 13/08/2001 12:14:49

Please respond to Forwarding and Control Element Separation



 To:      FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM

 cc:      (bcc: Francis ARTS/BE/ALCATEL)



 Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what
          to do






Francis,

I thought of the case where the CE is dead and therefore also
no routing protocol in running anymore. Such a scenario can
easily lead to routing loops especially when combined with with
one of the drafts on restarting OSPF.

Regards,
Patrick



Francis Arts wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> I think the following approach would be a possibility to cover the
case where the CE is completely dead:
> * If the CE is completely dead, the routing protocols time out.
Therefore, the routing adjacencies with the surrounding routers are
lost. Then the surrounding routers will stop forwarding traffic to the
router with the failed CE.
>
> Kind regards,
>
>      Francis.
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Patrick Droz <dro@ZURICH.IBM.COM> on 13/08/2001 10:53:00
>
> Please respond to Forwarding and Control Element Separation
>
>  To:      FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>
>  cc:      (bcc: Francis ARTS/BE/ALCATEL)
>
>  Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what
>           to do
>
> Radu,
>
> this might not be that easy to keep forwarding date but
> having lost the contact to the CE. What happens for example
> if the CE is really dead? So the FE may have completely
> outdated information. BTW, there were similar discussions
> in the OSPF working group on restarting OSPF.
>
> Regards,
> Patrick
>
> --
>   Dr. Patrick Droz                | dro@zurich.ibm.com
>   IBM Zurich Research Laboratory  | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro
>   Saumerstrasse 4                 | Tel. +41-1-724-85-25
>   CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-1-724-85-78

--
  Dr. Patrick Droz                | dro@zurich.ibm.com
  IBM Zurich Research Laboratory  | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro
  Saumerstrasse 4                 | Tel. +41-1-724-85-25
  CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-1-724-85-78


2001
Message-Id: <MON.13.AUG.2001.122517.0200.>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:25:17 +0200
From: Francis Arts <francis.arts@ALCATEL.BE>
Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what to do
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Patrick,

I should have phrased my statement clearer. I agree that if the CE is dead, also the routing protocols are not running anymore. However, this implies that the routing protocols in the surrounding routers will see that their routing adjacency towards the
router with the dead CE has gone. Therefore, they stop forwarding traffic to the router with the dead CE.

Kind regards,

     Francis.

-------------------------





Patrick Droz <dro@ZURICH.IBM.COM> on 13/08/2001 12:14:49




 To:      FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM

 cc:      (bcc: Francis ARTS/BE/ALCATEL)



 Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what
          to do






Francis,

I thought of the case where the CE is dead and therefore also
no routing protocol in running anymore. Such a scenario can
easily lead to routing loops especially when combined with with
one of the drafts on restarting OSPF.

Regards,
Patrick



Francis Arts wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> I think the following approach would be a possibility to cover the case where the CE is completely dead:
> * If the CE is completely dead, the routing protocols time out. Therefore, the routing adjacencies with the surrounding routers are lost. Then the surrounding routers will stop forwarding traffic to the router with the failed CE.
>
> Kind regards,
>
>      Francis.
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Patrick Droz <dro@ZURICH.IBM.COM> on 13/08/2001 10:53:00
>
>
>  To:      FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>
>  cc:      (bcc: Francis ARTS/BE/ALCATEL)
>
>  Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what
>           to do
>
> Radu,
>
> this might not be that easy to keep forwarding date but
> having lost the contact to the CE. What happens for example
> if the CE is really dead? So the FE may have completely
> outdated information. BTW, there were similar discussions
> in the OSPF working group on restarting OSPF.
>
> Regards,
> Patrick
>
> --
>   Dr. Patrick Droz                | dro@zurich.ibm.com
>   IBM Zurich Research Laboratory  | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro
>   Saumerstrasse 4                 | Tel. +41-1-724-85-25
>   CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-1-724-85-78

--
  Dr. Patrick Droz                | dro@zurich.ibm.com
  IBM Zurich Research Laboratory  | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro
  Saumerstrasse 4                 | Tel. +41-1-724-85-25
  CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-1-724-85-78


2001
Message-Id: <MON.13.AUG.2001.121449.0200.>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:14:49 +0200
From: Patrick Droz <dro@ZURICH.IBM.COM>
Organization: IBM Research Division
Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what to do
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Francis,

I thought of the case where the CE is dead and therefore also
no routing protocol in running anymore. Such a scenario can
easily lead to routing loops especially when combined with with
one of the drafts on restarting OSPF.

Regards,
Patrick



Francis Arts wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> I think the following approach would be a possibility to cover the case where the CE is completely dead:
> * If the CE is completely dead, the routing protocols time out. Therefore, the routing adjacencies with the surrounding routers are lost. Then the surrounding routers will stop forwarding traffic to the router with the failed CE.
>
> Kind regards,
>
>      Francis.
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Patrick Droz <dro@ZURICH.IBM.COM> on 13/08/2001 10:53:00
>
>
>  To:      FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>
>  cc:      (bcc: Francis ARTS/BE/ALCATEL)
>
>  Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what
>           to do
>
> Radu,
>
> this might not be that easy to keep forwarding date but
> having lost the contact to the CE. What happens for example
> if the CE is really dead? So the FE may have completely
> outdated information. BTW, there were similar discussions
> in the OSPF working group on restarting OSPF.
>
> Regards,
> Patrick
>
> --
>   Dr. Patrick Droz                | dro@zurich.ibm.com
>   IBM Zurich Research Laboratory  | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro
>   Saumerstrasse 4                 | Tel. +41-1-724-85-25
>   CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-1-724-85-78

--
  Dr. Patrick Droz                | dro@zurich.ibm.com
  IBM Zurich Research Laboratory  | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro
  Saumerstrasse 4                 | Tel. +41-1-724-85-25
  CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-1-724-85-78


2001
Message-Id: <MON.13.AUG.2001.120939.0400.>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 12:09:39 -0400
From: Radu Iorgulescu <radu@ONEXCO.COM>
Organization: Onex Communications
Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what to do
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Francis,

I agree with you that the adjacent nodes have to determine that the CE
is dead and re-route.
Another scenario can be the FE using outdating routing info, although
the CE is running properly. In this case, it is the CE that determines
that the FE did not process the routing changes and asks the adjacencies
to re-route the traffic (this is one of the reasons I mentioned in
another email that the CE-FE connectivity must not be reliable at the
transport level but at the 'message-processing' level).
Radu

-----Original Message-----
From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
[mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Francis Arts
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 6:25 AM
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: [FORCES] CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what to
do

Patrick,

I should have phrased my statement clearer. I agree that if the CE is
dead, also the routing protocols are not running anymore. However, this
implies that the routing protocols in the surrounding routers will see
that their routing adjacency towards the
router with the dead CE has gone. Therefore, they stop forwarding
traffic to the router with the dead CE.

Kind regards,

     Francis.

-------------------------





Patrick Droz <dro@ZURICH.IBM.COM> on 13/08/2001 12:14:49

Please respond to Forwarding and Control Element Separation



 To:      FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM

 cc:      (bcc: Francis ARTS/BE/ALCATEL)



 Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what
          to do






Francis,

I thought of the case where the CE is dead and therefore also
no routing protocol in running anymore. Such a scenario can
easily lead to routing loops especially when combined with with
one of the drafts on restarting OSPF.

Regards,
Patrick



Francis Arts wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> I think the following approach would be a possibility to cover the
case where the CE is completely dead:
> * If the CE is completely dead, the routing protocols time out.
Therefore, the routing adjacencies with the surrounding routers are
lost. Then the surrounding routers will stop forwarding traffic to the
router with the failed CE.
>
> Kind regards,
>
>      Francis.
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Patrick Droz <dro@ZURICH.IBM.COM> on 13/08/2001 10:53:00
>
> Please respond to Forwarding and Control Element Separation
>
>  To:      FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>
>  cc:      (bcc: Francis ARTS/BE/ALCATEL)
>
>  Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what
>           to do
>
> Radu,
>
> this might not be that easy to keep forwarding date but
> having lost the contact to the CE. What happens for example
> if the CE is really dead? So the FE may have completely
> outdated information. BTW, there were similar discussions
> in the OSPF working group on restarting OSPF.
>
> Regards,
> Patrick
>
> --
>   Dr. Patrick Droz                | dro@zurich.ibm.com
>   IBM Zurich Research Laboratory  | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro
>   Saumerstrasse 4                 | Tel. +41-1-724-85-25
>   CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-1-724-85-78

--
  Dr. Patrick Droz                | dro@zurich.ibm.com
  IBM Zurich Research Laboratory  | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro
  Saumerstrasse 4                 | Tel. +41-1-724-85-25
  CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-1-724-85-78


2001
Message-Id: <MON.13.AUG.2001.110047.0200.>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:00:47 +0200
From: Francis Arts <francis.arts@ALCATEL.BE>
Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what to do
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Patrick,

I think the following approach would be a possibility to cover the case where the CE is completely dead:
* If the CE is completely dead, the routing protocols time out. Therefore, the routing adjacencies with the surrounding routers are lost. Then the surrounding routers will stop forwarding traffic to the router with the failed CE.

Kind regards,

     Francis.

-----------------------------





Patrick Droz <dro@ZURICH.IBM.COM> on 13/08/2001 10:53:00




 To:      FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM

 cc:      (bcc: Francis ARTS/BE/ALCATEL)



 Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what
          to do






Radu,

this might not be that easy to keep forwarding date but
having lost the contact to the CE. What happens for example
if the CE is really dead? So the FE may have completely
outdated information. BTW, there were similar discussions
in the OSPF working group on restarting OSPF.

Regards,
Patrick

--
  Dr. Patrick Droz                | dro@zurich.ibm.com
  IBM Zurich Research Laboratory  | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro
  Saumerstrasse 4                 | Tel. +41-1-724-85-25
  CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-1-724-85-78


2001
Message-Id: <MON.13.AUG.2001.105300.0200.>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:53:00 +0200
From: Patrick Droz <dro@ZURICH.IBM.COM>
Organization: IBM Research Division
Subject: Re: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what to do
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Radu,

this might not be that easy to keep forwarding date but
having lost the contact to the CE. What happens for example
if the CE is really dead? So the FE may have completely
outdated information. BTW, there were similar discussions
in the OSPF working group on restarting OSPF.

Regards,
Patrick

--
  Dr. Patrick Droz                | dro@zurich.ibm.com
  IBM Zurich Research Laboratory  | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro
  Saumerstrasse 4                 | Tel. +41-1-724-85-25
  CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-1-724-85-78


2001
Message-Id: <FRI.10.AUG.2001.121058.0400.>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:10:58 -0400
From: Radu Iorgulescu <radu@ONEXCO.COM>
Organization: Onex Communications
Subject: Comment on reliable CE to FE transport
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The Forces draft mentions that
"   Since the CE is in control of its FEs, the CE MUST be sure that its
configuration changes are reliably delivered to FEs."

I agree with the idea that the CE must be sure that the config changes
are processed by the FE, but the statement does not say it. It states
that the control/config data has been delivered to the FE and not that
is has been processed. This client-server relationship has been
successfully implemented by SNMP for years, without requiring a reliable
transport protocol. (please note that I don't want to start a debate
similar TCP vs. UDP transport mechanism in the LDP vs. RSVP discussion,
or more recently NTIP vs. LMP).

As FEs become more and more complicated, FSM are/will be required for
OAM&P purposes. State transition sequences are important. The CE has to
know the transition execution details before a new command / transition
is sent. Reliably data delivery is not necessarily a step towards
achieving the goal.

Radu

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The Forces draft mentions =
that<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&quot;<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Since the CE is in control of its </span></font><st1:place><font =
size=3D2
 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>FEs</span></font></st1:place=
><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>, the CE
MUST <span class=3DGramE>be</span> sure that its configuration changes =
are
reliably delivered to </span></font><st1:place><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
 =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>FEs</span></font></st1:place=
><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></f=
ont></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I agree with the idea that the CE must be sure that =
the
config changes are processed by the FE, but the statement does not say =
it. It
states that the control/config data has been delivered to the FE and not =
that
is has been processed. This client-server relationship has been =
successfully
implemented by SNMP for years, without requiring a reliable transport =
protocol.
(<span class=3DGramE>please</span> note that I don&#8217;t want to start =
a debate
similar TCP vs. UDP transport mechanism in the LDP vs. RSVP discussion, =
or more
recently NTIP vs. LMP). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>As </span></font><st1:place><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
 =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>FEs</span></font></st1:place=
><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> become more
and more complicated, FSM are/will <span class=3DGramE>be</span> =
required for
OAM&amp;P purposes. State transition sequences are important. The CE has =
to
know the transition execution details before a new command / transition =
is sent.
Reliably data delivery is not necessarily a step towards achieving the =
goal.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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2001
Message-Id: <FRI.10.AUG.2001.115215.0400.>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:52:15 -0400
From: Radu Iorgulescu <radu@ONEXCO.COM>
Organization: Onex Communications
Subject: CE-FE control channel connectivity loss -what to do
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Todd:

In the draft you presented at the IETF meeting in London there is a
requirement for handling FE-to-CE connectivity loss.
"There MUST be a mechanism by which FEs can quickly determine when their
connection with the CE has been severed.  When the control connection is
lost, the FE MUST transition to the down state and stop functioning
until the control connection has been reestablished."

 I don't believe that the FE must go into a down state at all for a
couple of reasons:

a) FE-to-CE control channel becomes a single point of failure. The way
to protect against single failure points is to provide redundancy, maybe
in the form of a second CE. As a result, there is no need for the FE to
transition to the out-of-service state;
b) a CE failure or the CE-to-FE link does not affect the forwarding
capability of the device but merely the control and management aspects
of it. It should be left to the system manufacturer to decide what
policy to apply (as stated in Jamal's draft).
For example, let's think about an FE that is part of an MPLS LSR.
According to the draft, if the connectivity between the FE and CE is
lost, all the MPLS LSP have to be taken down. However, graceful
termination of the MPLS LSPs requires some additional MPLS signaling
(label release and withdraw in LDP, pathTear and resvTear in RSVP).

I think that the FE may continue to function even if the CE connectivity
has been lost, and may continue forwarding the labeled/unlabeled
packets. .  It is obvious that neither IP routing updates are possible,
nor are LSP management operations. In the optical domain (Sonet/SDH),
the port/VT/etc configuration is retained and switching continues until
the config changes.  .

Radu

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Todd:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>In the draft you presented at the IETF meeting in =
</span></font><st1:City><st1:place><font
  size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>London</span></font></st1:pl=
ace></st1:City><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> there is a requirement
for handling FE-to-CE connectivity loss.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&quot;There MUST be a mechanism by which =
</span></font><st1:place><font
 size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>FEs</span></font></st1:place=
><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> can quickly
determine when their connection with the CE has been severed.<span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span>When the control connection is =
lost, the
FE MUST transition to the down state and stop functioning until the =
control
connection has been reestablished.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>I don't =
believe
that the FE must go into a down state at all for a couple of =
reasons:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>a) FE-to-CE control channel becomes a single point of
failure. The way to protect against single failure points is to provide
redundancy, maybe in the form of a second CE. As a result, there is no =
need for
the FE to transition to the out-of-service =
state;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>b) <span class=3DGramE>a</span> CE failure or the =
CE-to-FE
link does not affect the forwarding capability of the device but merely =
the
control and management aspects of it. It should be left to the system
manufacturer to decide what policy to apply (as stated in Jamal's =
draft).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>For example, let's think about an FE that is part of =
an MPLS
LSR. According to the draft, if the connectivity between the FE and CE =
is lost,
all the MPLS LSP <span class=3DGramE>have</span> to be taken down. =
However, graceful
termination of the MPLS LSPs requires some additional MPLS signaling =
(label release
and withdraw in LDP, pathTear and resvTear in =
RSVP).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I think that the FE may continue to function even if =
the CE
connectivity has been lost, and may continue forwarding the =
labeled/unlabeled
packets. . <span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>It is obvious =
that neither
IP routing updates are possible, nor are LSP management operations. In =
the
optical domain (Sonet/SDH), the port/VT/etc configuration is retained =
and
switching continues until the config changes. <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span>. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Radu<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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2001
Message-Id: <FRI.10.AUG.2001.102934.0400.>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:29:34 -0400
From: Radu Iorgulescu <radu@ONEXCO.COM>
Organization: Onex Communications
Subject: Re: latest version of ForCES requirements document
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Todd:

This includes devices that deal with both unlabeled and labeled IP
traffic, right?
Radu

-----Original Message-----
From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation
[mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Anderson, Todd A
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 11:39 AM
To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: [FORCES] latest version of ForCES requirements document

> > supporting frame, atm and ds1, e1 access quickly
> > leads to a very large number of logical i/o
> > channels (ports). it's not uncommon for today's
> > chips to support well over 1k.
>
> Out of curiosity, do we wanna deal with anything other than
> IP capable devices or we dont care?

The charter says IP devices only.

Todd

