2008 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 00:06:41 +0300 From: Evangelos Haleplidis Subject: Protocol Draft - KEYINFO-TLV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings again to the list, I have some comment regarding the KEYINFO-TLV. 1. As with the PathData TLV there was no Graph, so I made up one. I include it in the end of the mail. 2. About the KeyID, it is not specified specific in the document what the size is. I guess it is an integer, shouldn't it be specified for clarity? How many Keys may exist for a specific table? Could/Should the KeyID be limited to less than 4 bytes? 3. In Page 45 it is written: KEYINFO-TLV := KeyID FULLDATA-TLV Shouldn't it be changed to: KEYINFO-TLV := KeyID KEYDATA KEYDATA := FULLDATA-TLV Or KEYINFO-TLV := KeyID KeyData This would be in accordance with the examples also in the appendix. Regards, Evangelos Haleplidis. =============================== KeyInfo-TLV Graph 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Type = KeyInfo | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | KeyID | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | KeyData | . . +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 2008 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 12:00:31 +0200 From: Patrick Droz Organization: IBM Research Division Subject: Re: Protocol Draft - PathDataTLV Comments: To: Avri Doria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070905040909030203080600" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070905040909030203080600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Avri, yes, this is fine with me. Regards, Patrick Avri Doria wrote: > Hi, > > as long as it is ok with the group and the shepherd, I will save up all > the changes for a post IETF LC release. > > thanks > > a. > > > > On 1 Apr 2008, at 21:48, Jamal Hadi Salim wrote: >> Greetings Evangelos, >> >> Much thanks for the review; comments below. >> >> On Mon, 2008-31-03 at 22:56 +0300, Evangelos Haleplidis wrote: >> >> [..] >> >>> 1. Path-Data-TLV is the only TLV (besides KEYINFO-TLV) that is not >>> depicted >>> as a graph in the document. While it is described, it would be good for >>> consistency to be seen. In the end of the document I include an example. >> >> Looks usable to me. If there are no objections from the other authors, >> we should include it. >> >>> 2. In the second text the part "when PATH flags are 00" should be >>> changed to >>> "when PATH flags are 0x00", unless there was intended as 0b00. It >>> should be >>> specified however for clarity. >> >> I think that paragraph is a bit confusing; please refer to the other >> text I am suggesting below to replace that section. >> >>> 3. About Selector Bit, in which position does it exist in the flags? >>> I guess >>> it should be the first. However I think it should be documented for >>> clarity >>> purposes (I also include a graph in the end of the mail). >>> >> >> Hrm. Good catch. Our implementation has it at the other end. i.e. bit 15 >> May i suggest we put it there? >> >>> 4. I don't understand exactly what the text in page 48 regarding >>> FullData >>> TLVs mean. If PathFlags!=0x00 then the FullData MUST contain inside >>> the V >>> the row besides the value, the index of the row (fifth row for >>> example)? But >>> if PathFlags==0x00 then it MAY contain that OR the row will be >>> specified in >>> the Path (IDs)? While I searched I did not see an example in the >>> document, >>> or perhaps I was searching wrong. >> >> This is the same in concern of #2. So for both #2 and #4 here's text >> which i think provides more clarity. >> >> ------------- >> When a table is referred to in the PATH (IDs) of a PATH-DATA-TLV, >> then the FULLDATA's "V" will contain all of that table's row contents. >> Refer to blah for an example of this. >> It is possible to reference a specific single row by appending >> to the PATH (IDs) the index of the specific table row. For an >> example of this refer to blah. If a a table row is referenced >> in this way then in order to avoid ambiguity, the PATH flags must >> MUST ensure that the content selection flag (F_SELKEY) is not set. >> Setting F_SELKEY will result in blah error. >> ------- >> >> I will look up the examples and replace the blahs. >> By not specifying the 00 leaves us room in the future should we add more >> flags to be make sure those are not zeroed out when needed.. >> >> Does this provide more clarity? >> >> Thanks again for the scrutiny. >> >> cheers, >> jamal >> >> > > > > -- Dr. Patrick Droz | dro@zurich.ibm.com IBM Zurich Research Laboratory | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro Saumerstrasse 4 | Tel. +41-44-724-85-25 CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-44-724-85-78 --------------ms070905040909030203080600 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature 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cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080906010002060608030804 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am forwarding this not on behalf of Ross. I am also welcoming Jamal on board! Regards, Patrick -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Change in Forces WG co-chair Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 12:59:12 -0400 From: Ross Callon To: CC: Ross Callon , David Ward , , , Dave Putzolu has asked to step down as Forces working group co-chair. Dave has become busy with other work recently, and therefore no longer has time to serve as co-chair. I would like to thank Dave for multiple years of service as co-chair (preceding my time as Routing AD). Jamal Hadi Salim has agreed to take over as co-chair. I am sure that Jamal will be familiar to most Forces participants due to his being very active in the group. I would like to thank Jamal for being willing to step up as co-chair. The working group charter page will be updated to reflect these changes in the near future. Thanks, Ross -- Dr. Patrick Droz | dro@zurich.ibm.com IBM Zurich Research Laboratory | http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~dro Saumerstrasse 4 | Tel. +41-44-724-85-25 CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland | Fax. +41-44-724-85-78 --------------ms080906010002060608030804 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIP6jCC BSwwggSVoAMCAQICEDqcN60eyFMWG0XIVQBLNZgwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgcExCzAJBgNV BAYTAlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE8MDoGA1UECxMzQ2xhc3MgMiBQdWJs aWMgUHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eSAtIEcyMTowOAYDVQQLEzEoYykg MTk5OCBWZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLiAtIEZvciBhdXRob3JpemVkIHVzZSBvbmx5MR8wHQYDVQQL ExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMB4XDTAzMDUwNjAwMDAwMFoXDTEzMDUwNTIzNTk1 OVowgfkxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMTQwMgYDVQQKEytJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsIEJ1c2luZXNzIE1h 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Of4nDfKD6kjgqI5Dk/LML8nQpLJNH/eKmb62Pr7XMDWm5g6Bx5/FyNZvrOHmAAAAAAAA --------------ms080906010002060608030804-- 2008 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 15:47:06 +0200 From: Avri Doria Subject: Re: Protocol Draft - PathDataTLV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Hi, as long as it is ok with the group and the shepherd, I will save up all the changes for a post IETF LC release. thanks a. On 1 Apr 2008, at 21:48, Jamal Hadi Salim wrote: > Greetings Evangelos, > > Much thanks for the review; comments below. > > On Mon, 2008-31-03 at 22:56 +0300, Evangelos Haleplidis wrote: > > [..] > >> 1. Path-Data-TLV is the only TLV (besides KEYINFO-TLV) that is not >> depicted >> as a graph in the document. While it is described, it would be good >> for >> consistency to be seen. In the end of the document I include an >> example. > > Looks usable to me. If there are no objections from the other authors, > we should include it. > >> 2. In the second text the part "when PATH flags are 00" should be >> changed to >> "when PATH flags are 0x00", unless there was intended as 0b00. It >> should be >> specified however for clarity. > > I think that paragraph is a bit confusing; please refer to the other > text I am suggesting below to replace that section. > >> 3. About Selector Bit, in which position does it exist in the >> flags? I guess >> it should be the first. However I think it should be documented for >> clarity >> purposes (I also include a graph in the end of the mail). >> > > Hrm. Good catch. Our implementation has it at the other end. i.e. > bit 15 > May i suggest we put it there? > >> 4. I don't understand exactly what the text in page 48 regarding >> FullData >> TLVs mean. If PathFlags!=0x00 then the FullData MUST contain inside >> the V >> the row besides the value, the index of the row (fifth row for >> example)? But >> if PathFlags==0x00 then it MAY contain that OR the row will be >> specified in >> the Path (IDs)? While I searched I did not see an example in the >> document, >> or perhaps I was searching wrong. > > This is the same in concern of #2. So for both #2 and #4 here's text > which i think provides more clarity. > > ------------- > When a table is referred to in the PATH (IDs) of a PATH-DATA-TLV, > then the FULLDATA's "V" will contain all of that table's row contents. > Refer to blah for an example of this. > It is possible to reference a specific single row by appending > to the PATH (IDs) the index of the specific table row. For an > example of this refer to blah. If a a table row is referenced > in this way then in order to avoid ambiguity, the PATH flags must > MUST ensure that the content selection flag (F_SELKEY) is not set. > Setting F_SELKEY will result in blah error. > ------- > > I will look up the examples and replace the blahs. > By not specifying the 00 leaves us room in the future should we add > more > flags to be make sure those are not zeroed out when needed.. > > Does this provide more clarity? > > Thanks again for the scrutiny. > > cheers, > jamal > > 2008 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 00:33:49 +0300 From: Evangelos Haleplidis Subject: Re: Protocol Draft - PathDataTLV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, Thanks for the answers. The new text is indeed more clear. Regards, Evangelos Haleplidis -----Original Message----- From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Jamal Hadi Salim Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 10:48 PM To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM Subject: Re: Protocol Draft - PathDataTLV Greetings Evangelos, Much thanks for the review; comments below. On Mon, 2008-31-03 at 22:56 +0300, Evangelos Haleplidis wrote: [..] > 1. Path-Data-TLV is the only TLV (besides KEYINFO-TLV) that is not depicted > as a graph in the document. While it is described, it would be good for > consistency to be seen. In the end of the document I include an example. Looks usable to me. If there are no objections from the other authors, we should include it. > 2. In the second text the part "when PATH flags are 00" should be changed to > "when PATH flags are 0x00", unless there was intended as 0b00. It should be > specified however for clarity. I think that paragraph is a bit confusing; please refer to the other text I am suggesting below to replace that section. > 3. About Selector Bit, in which position does it exist in the flags? I guess > it should be the first. However I think it should be documented for clarity > purposes (I also include a graph in the end of the mail). > Hrm. Good catch. Our implementation has it at the other end. i.e. bit 15 May i suggest we put it there? > 4. I don't understand exactly what the text in page 48 regarding FullData > TLVs mean. If PathFlags!=0x00 then the FullData MUST contain inside the V > the row besides the value, the index of the row (fifth row for example)? But > if PathFlags==0x00 then it MAY contain that OR the row will be specified in > the Path (IDs)? While I searched I did not see an example in the document, > or perhaps I was searching wrong. This is the same in concern of #2. So for both #2 and #4 here's text which i think provides more clarity. ------------- When a table is referred to in the PATH (IDs) of a PATH-DATA-TLV, then the FULLDATA's "V" will contain all of that table's row contents. Refer to blah for an example of this. It is possible to reference a specific single row by appending to the PATH (IDs) the index of the specific table row. For an example of this refer to blah. If a a table row is referenced in this way then in order to avoid ambiguity, the PATH flags must MUST ensure that the content selection flag (F_SELKEY) is not set. Setting F_SELKEY will result in blah error. ------- I will look up the examples and replace the blahs. By not specifying the 00 leaves us room in the future should we add more flags to be make sure those are not zeroed out when needed.. Does this provide more clarity? Thanks again for the scrutiny. cheers, jamal 2008 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 00:20:00 +0300 From: Evangelos Haleplidis Subject: Re: Protocol Draft - KEYINFO-TLV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings again to the list, I have a new question regarding the KeyInfoTLV. Page 45: KEYINFO-TLV := KeyID FULLDATA-TLV Page 46 About KeyData. * The key's data is the data to look for in the array, in the fields identified by the key field. The information is encoded according to the rules for the contents of a FULLDATA-TLV, and represent the field or fields which make up the key identified by the KeyID. If I understand this correctly then the KeyInfoTLV should look like this: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Type = KeyInfo | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | KeyID | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Type = FullData | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Value=KeyData | . . +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ If this is the case, then does the KeyInfo Length contains also the length of the KeyData? Also, since there is only one KeyID, wouldn't the following format be more useful: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Type = KeyInfo | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | KeyID | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | KeyData | . . +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Whereas "KeyData_Length = Length - 8" and a different TLV for the KeyData is not needed? Is there a specific reason why KeyData is needed as a different TLV? From the BNF I understand that the Key and the Fulldata (KeyData) go, when used, together. Why split them? Regards, Evangelos Haleplidis. -----Original Message----- From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Wang,Weiming Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 6:03 PM To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM Subject: Re: Protocol Draft - KEYINFO-TLV Hi Evangelos, 2008 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:03:17 +0800 From: "Wang,Weiming" Subject: Re: Protocol Draft - KEYINFO-TLV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRXZhbmdlbG9zLA0KDQpGcm9tIHRoZSBjb250ZWNwdHVhbCBwb2ludCBvZiB2aWV3LCAgdGhl IEtleUlEIGlzIGEgdHlwZSBvZiAgIklEcyIgYXMgZXhwbGFpbmVkIGluIHAuNDUsIHdoaWNoIG9j Y3VweWluZyB0aGUgc2FtZSBsZW5ndGggKDMyYml0cykuIFdoZXJlYXMsIEkgYWdyZWUgdGhhdCBh cHBseWluZyBhIHRleHQgbGlrZSBLZXlJRCgzMmJpdHMpICBpbiB0aGUgS2V5SUQgdGVybSBleHBs YW5hdGlvbiBwYXJhZ3JhcGggbWlnaHQgbWFrZSB0aGluZ3MgbW9yZSBjbGVhci4gDQoNCk9uIHRo ZSBncmFwaCBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgUGF0aC1EYXRhLVRMViwgSSBqdXN0IHRoaW5rIGN1 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ICAgICAgICAgICAgICB8DQo+PiAgICAgKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0r LSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSsNCj4+ICAgICB8ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgIEtleURhdGEgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgfA0KPj4gICAg IC4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAuDQo+PiAgICAgKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0r LSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSstKy0rLSsNCj4+IA0KPj4gDQo+ 2008 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:57:31 +0300 From: Evangelos Haleplidis Subject: Protocol Draft - KEYINFO-TLV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, My question was what the size of the KeyID, in terms of the protocol message, is. Are the KeyIDs 4 bytes long? I couldn't find any specification in the protocol draft, and I believe there should be one in there, or an explanation of how to get it. Or is it derived by the KeyInfoTLV's L value? I couldn't find a text that explains that also. Also, how many keys can there be in an array? Will there be more than 127 (1byte)? Is there a need for 4 bytes? Since for each array we can have individual numbering. Regards, Evangelos Haleplidis. -----Original Message----- From: Forwarding and Control Element Separation [mailto:FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 4:05 AM To: FORCES@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM Subject: Re: Protocol Draft - KEYINFO-TLV The KeyData is, I believe a FULLDATA TLV, as it can be any form of data, and may need its own length. The KeyID is an ID, as defined in the model. There can be multiple keys, each made up of multiple values. The keyid tells you wha tkey is being used. Please look at the model and let us know if there is a need for more text on that. Yours, Joel M. Halpern Evangelos Haleplidis wrote: > Greetings again to the list, > > I have some comment regarding the KEYINFO-TLV. > > 1. As with the PathData TLV there was no Graph, so I made up one. I > include it in the end of the mail. > 2. About the KeyID, it is not specified specific in the document what > the size is. I guess it is an integer, shouldn't it be specified for clarity? > How many Keys may exist for a specific table? Could/Should the KeyID > be limited to less than 4 bytes? > 3. In Page 45 it is written: > KEYINFO-TLV := KeyID FULLDATA-TLV Shouldn't it be changed to: > KEYINFO-TLV := KeyID KEYDATA > KEYDATA := FULLDATA-TLV > Or > KEYINFO-TLV := KeyID KeyData > This would be in accordance with the examples also in the appendix. > > Regards, > Evangelos Haleplidis. > > =============================== > KeyInfo-TLV Graph > > 0 1 2 3 > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | Type = KeyInfo | Length | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | KeyID | > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | KeyData | > . . > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > 2008 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:48:25 -0400 From: Jamal Hadi Salim Organization: ZNYX Networks Subject: Re: Protocol Draft - PathDataTLV Comments: To: Evangelos Haleplidis Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings Evangelos, Much thanks for the review; comments below. On Mon, 2008-31-03 at 22:56 +0300, Evangelos Haleplidis wrote: [..] > 1. Path-Data-TLV is the only TLV (besides KEYINFO-TLV) that is not depicted > as a graph in the document. While it is described, it would be good for > consistency to be seen. In the end of the document I include an example. Looks usable to me. If there are no objections from the other authors, we should include it. > 2. In the second text the part "when PATH flags are 00" should be changed to > "when PATH flags are 0x00", unless there was intended as 0b00. It should be > specified however for clarity. I think that paragraph is a bit confusing; please refer to the other text I am suggesting below to replace that section. > 3. About Selector Bit, in which position does it exist in the flags? I guess > it should be the first. However I think it should be documented for clarity > purposes (I also include a graph in the end of the mail). > Hrm. Good catch. Our implementation has it at the other end. i.e. bit 15 May i suggest we put it there? > 4. I don't understand exactly what the text in page 48 regarding FullData > TLVs mean. If PathFlags!=0x00 then the FullData MUST contain inside the V > the row besides the value, the index of the row (fifth row for example)? But > if PathFlags==0x00 then it MAY contain that OR the row will be specified in > the Path (IDs)? While I searched I did not see an example in the document, > or perhaps I was searching wrong. This is the same in concern of #2. So for both #2 and #4 here's text which i think provides more clarity. ------------- When a table is referred to in the PATH (IDs) of a PATH-DATA-TLV, then the FULLDATA's "V" will contain all of that table's row contents. Refer to blah for an example of this. It is possible to reference a specific single row by appending to the PATH (IDs) the index of the specific table row. For an example of this refer to blah. If a a table row is referenced in this way then in order to avoid ambiguity, the PATH flags must MUST ensure that the content selection flag (F_SELKEY) is not set. Setting F_SELKEY will result in blah error. ------- I will look up the examples and replace the blahs. By not specifying the 00 leaves us room in the future should we add more flags to be make sure those are not zeroed out when needed.. Does this provide more clarity? Thanks again for the scrutiny. cheers, jamal