From nobody Tue Sep 7 07:51:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietf.org Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1933A0A38; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 07:51:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: eckelcu@cisco.com, hackathon-chairs@ietf.org, hackathon@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.36.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <163102628131.15571.6038513991036865905@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 07:51:22 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [hackathon] hackathon - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 112 X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:51:23 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Charles Eckel, a Chair of the hackathon working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Hackathon Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Charles Eckel Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 75 Conflicts to Avoid: People who must be present: Barry Leiba Charles Eckel Resources Requested: Special Requests: Please schedule the first session, the Hackathon kickoff, Monday, 1 Nov., 15:00 to 16:00 UTC. Please schedule the second session, the Hackathon closing, Friday, 5 Nov, 15:00 to 17:00 UTC --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Sep 8 07:15:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 113603A29C1 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 07:15:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aI8czEzIqAyi for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 07:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 657803A29C5 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 07:15:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=Date:To:Subject:From; bh=5ri0reTrsioG2CfjyGWwgs99Dh+URYOdQy8tSIKnUKk=; b=cAWDBVfh7h/a3nDGT+/8NEKmVc 2znZv16RfV21M/nwoVBbeLG8MW3YaDH1fpE8CcW8Gz8NUAw0U1nr4dgSw0PgDLc/oXesLURsSvWU9 SYQnZJCOgKKf11rHu+LlbCVBBP5Wy3JjPp8ISTHl1OUCv5NPpMEgxpN5n8fcb44EAyHnmRIplsSom bVURns2JK7GNe8Nu62UBgMycYMziOeI0/yWMSQ6ZQ+Fc6ZRokoiNgZgzINFTLLCurdt79qr03agKk GUbfujK+aXbfLd2weHY7TD3cF+53zpexInFSymhV5G6y706Ce2+PIO0O2HMZ39EERGgsh1vGcQfq7 nwHFmaVg==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=33600 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mNyMI-0006Rb-NI for hackathon@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:15:31 +0100 From: Colin Perkins Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_34F541D8-949B-40DF-A36D-09A0BD312BAB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Message-Id: References: <162999814684.20004.14983615742263566201@ietfa.amsl.com> To: hackathon@ietf.org Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:15:19 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: [hackathon] Fwd: [IRTF-Announce] Call for Papers: Workshop on Analyzing IETF Data (AID), 2021 X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 14:15:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_34F541D8-949B-40DF-A36D-09A0BD312BAB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 This may be of interest to hackathon participants. Colin > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager > Subject: [IRTF-Announce] Call for Papers: Workshop on Analyzing IETF = Data (AID), 2021 > Date: 26 August 2021 at 18:15:47 BST > To: "IETF Announcement List" > Cc: irtf-announce@irtf.org, architecture-discuss@ietf.org > Reply-To: aid-workshop-pc@iab.org >=20 > Show me the numbers: Workshop on Analyzing IETF Data (AID), 2021 >=20 > Web Page: https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/aid/ >=20 > The IETF as an international Standards Developing Organization hosts=20= > diverse data on the history, development, and current activities in = the=20 > development and standardization of Internet protocols and its=20 > institutions. A large portion of this data is publicly available, yet=20= > this data is arguably underutilized as a tool to inform the work in = the=20 > IETF and research on topics like Internet governance and trends in ICT=20= > standard-setting. >=20 > This workshop aims to enable engineers and researchers alike to mine = the=20 > IETF's data sources in order to explore trends through the analysis of=20= > IETF data, such as email archives=20 > , I-Ds=20 > , RFCs=20 > , and the datatracker=20 > . This work can be used to derive=20 > insights into the inner workings of the process of standardization,=20 > participation, and governance[1]. This workshop aims to bring together=20= > people who have already analyzed IETF data, those who are interested = in=20 > the analysis of IETF data, and those who are interested in the results=20= > of such analysis as input for improvement of the IETF's work. >=20 > We invite the research community, IETF participants, and others with = an=20 > interest in the data collected by the IETF, its protocols, and=20 > participants, to submit a contribution to the workshop. Furthermore, = we=20 > also welcome participants who are interested in the analysis that = could=20 > be performed based on this data as well as those contributing=20 > considerations regarding future collection and handling of IETF data. >=20 > Possible avenues for explorations include, but are not limited to: >=20 > A. What are patterns for participation in the IETF (what are=20 > predictors for a long and productive tenure, when do people stop=20= > participating, what is needed to successfully produce RFCs)? > B. How is the IETF community developing (i.e., affiliations,=20 > publications, language, nationality, leadership positions)? > C. How do affiliations develop in the IETF (i.e., does a change in=20 > affiliation translate into a change in behavior, is there a=20 > relation between affiliation and leadership positions and/or=20 > centrality, what is the affiliation distribution per area and/or=20= > WG)? > D. What social dynamics (gender, nationality, income, occupation, and=20= > other social dynamics) are not captured by IETF data and what data=20= > and research approaches are needed to develop further insights in=20= > the social dynamics of standardization? > E. How productive and effective is the IETF, with respect to=20 > documents, pages, words, letters and in comparison the overall=20 > activities e.g. on mailing lists? > F. How well is the outcome of the IETF used, e.g,. based on = references=20 > to RFCs in research papers, product manuals, or other sources? > G. What data would be relevant to collect that is not collected yet = or=20 > what should be considered with respect to handling of personal = data=20 > during the data collection and research. > H. How effective is the IETF's consensus-based decision making=20 > process? Is there evidence that documents receive broad and=20 > effective reviews? Are experts with relevant expertise engaging=20 > with developing standards in a timely manner? >=20 > Participation and Submission >=20 > People interested in participation are requested to submit short=20 > position papers (500-1000 words). The paper can cover one or multiple = of=20 > the following points, but this list should not be considered = exhaustive: >=20 > 1. Research questions and interests in IETF data; indication which=20 > question should be answered, the data needed to do so, and how=20 > these insights could be used to improve processes and operations; > 2. Description of the IETF data they aim to analyze or the = information=20 > they would like to see made available to inform their work (such = as=20 > mailing list archives, or participation data obtained through the=20= > datatracker) and their methods for doing so (see footnote 1); > 3. Potential and preliminary findings; and how those insights could=20= > either benefit leadership, WG chairs, and authors/participants,=20 > and/or society and industry at large; > 4. Potential or preliminary findings and how those add novel insights=20= > to ongoing academic debates. >=20 > Proposals for data analysis should also contain a brief consideration = of=20 > any related ethics and privacy issues. The basic principles of ethical=20= > research are outlined in the Belmont Report2 (covering e.g., respect = for=20 > persons, beneficence, and justice) and/or institutional ethics=20 > guidelines. >=20 > The workshop will be invitation-only. The organizers will decide whom = to=20 > invite based on the submissions received. Therefore, please indicate=20= > your interest by submitting a research proposal by September 29, 2021 = to=20 > aid-workshop-pc@iab.org. >=20 > The Program Committee members are Niels ten Oever (chair, University = of=20 > Amsterdam), Colin Perkins (chair, IRTF, University of Glasgow), = Corinne=20 > Cath (chair, Oxford Internet Institute), Mirja K=C3=BChlewind (IAB,=20 > Ericsson), Zhenbin Li (IAB, Huawei), Wes Hardaker (IAB, USC/ISI). >=20 > All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be published on the=20= > workshop web page. Sessions will be organized according to content, = and=20 > not every accepted submission or invited attendee will have an=20 > opportunity to present as the intent is to foster discussion and not=20= > simply to have a sequence of presentations. >=20 > Position papers from those unable to attend in person are encouraged. = A=20 > workshop report will be published afterwards. >=20 > Logistics >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Submissions Due: 29 September 2021 > =E2=80=A2 Invitations Issued by: 15 October 2021 > =E2=80=A2 Workshop Date: November 29 =E2=80=93 December 3 2021 > =E2=80=A2 Location: Online and at the University of Amsterdam = (COVID-19=20 > permitting). >=20 > The workshop will consist of three parts: >=20 > 1. opening workshop (Monday) > 2. hackathon (Tuesday =E2=80=93 Thursday morning) > 3. closing event (Thursday afternoon) >=20 > Feel free to contact the program committee with any further questions=20= > (including questions related to available data or expected outcomes):=20= > aid-workshop-pc@iab.org. >=20 > ----- > [1] Examples of such approaches are:=20 > https://www.arkko.com/tools/docstats.html,=20 > http://datactive.github.io/bigbang/,=20 > = https://csperkins.org/research/protocol-standards/2020-12-10-ignacio-iesg-= talk/2020-12-10_IESG-50-years-IETF-send.pdf,=20 > = https://sodestream.github.io/impact-of-early-engagement-on-longevity-of-ie= tf-participation.html >=20 > [2] = https://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/sites/default/files/the-belmont-report-508c_FINAL= .pdf --Apple-Mail=_34F541D8-949B-40DF-A36D-09A0BD312BAB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 This = may be of interest to hackathon participants.
Colin



Begin forwarded message:

From: = IAB Executive Administrative = Manager <execd@iab.org>
Subject: = [IRTF-Announce] = Call for Papers: Workshop on Analyzing IETF Data (AID), 2021
Date: = 26 August 2021 at 18:15:47 = BST
To: = "IETF Announcement List" <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: irtf-announce@irtf.org, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
Reply-To: = aid-workshop-pc@iab.org

Show me the numbers: Workshop = on Analyzing IETF Data (AID), 2021

Web = Page: https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/aid/

The IETF as an international Standards = Developing Organization hosts
diverse data on the = history, development, and current activities in the
development and standardization of Internet protocols and its =
institutions. A large portion of this data is publicly = available, yet
this data is arguably underutilized as a = tool to inform the work in the
IETF and research on = topics like Internet governance and trends in ICT
standard-setting.

This workshop = aims to enable engineers and researchers alike to mine the
IETF's data sources in order to explore trends through the = analysis of
IETF data, such as email archives
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/>, I-Ds
<https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/>, RFCs
<https://www.ietf.org/standards/rfcs/>, and the = datatracker
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/>. This work can be used = to derive
insights into the inner workings of the process = of standardization,
participation, and governance[1]. = This workshop aims to bring together
people who have = already analyzed IETF data, those who are interested in
the= analysis of IETF data, and those who are interested in the results
of such analysis as input for improvement of the IETF's = work.

We invite the research community, = IETF participants, and others with an
interest in the = data collected by the IETF, its protocols, and
participants, to submit a contribution to the workshop. = Furthermore, we
also welcome participants who are = interested in the analysis that could
be performed based = on this data as well as those contributing
considerations = regarding future collection and handling of IETF data.

Possible avenues for explorations include, but are not = limited to:

 A. What are patterns for = participation in the IETF (what are
=     predictors for a long and productive tenure, = when do people stop
=     participating, what is needed to successfully = produce RFCs)?
 B. How is the IETF community = developing (i.e., affiliations,
=     publications, language, nationality, leadership = positions)?
 C. How do affiliations develop in the = IETF (i.e., does a change in
=     affiliation translate into a change in behavior, = is there a
    relation between = affiliation and leadership positions and/or
=     centrality, what is the affiliation distribution = per area and/or
    WG)?
 D. What social dynamics (gender, nationality, income, = occupation, and
    other social = dynamics) are not captured by IETF data and what data
=     and research approaches are needed to develop = further insights in
    the social = dynamics of standardization?
 E. How productive and = effective is the IETF, with respect to
=     documents, pages, words, letters and in = comparison the overall
=     activities e.g. on mailing lists?
=  F. How well is the outcome of the IETF used, e.g,. based on = references
    to RFCs in research = papers, product manuals, or other sources?
 G. What = data would be relevant to collect that is not collected yet or
    what should be considered with = respect to handling of personal data
=     during the data collection and research.
 H. How effective is the IETF's consensus-based = decision making
    process? Is = there evidence that documents receive broad and
=     effective reviews? Are experts with relevant = expertise engaging
    with = developing standards in a timely manner?

Participation and Submission

People interested in participation are requested to submit = short
position papers (500-1000 words). The paper can = cover one or multiple of
the following points, but this = list should not be considered exhaustive:

=  1. Research questions and interests in IETF data; indication which =
    question should be answered, the = data needed to do so, and how
=     these insights could be used to improve = processes and operations;
 2. Description of the = IETF data they aim to analyze or the information
=     they would like to see made available to inform = their work (such as
    mailing list = archives, or participation data obtained through the
=     datatracker) and their methods for doing so (see = footnote 1);
 3. Potential and preliminary findings; = and how those insights could
=     either benefit leadership, WG chairs, and = authors/participants,
    and/or = society and industry at large;
 4. Potential or = preliminary findings and how those add novel insights
=     to ongoing academic debates.

Proposals for data analysis should also contain a brief = consideration of
any related ethics and privacy issues. = The basic principles of ethical
research are outlined in = the Belmont Report2 (covering e.g., respect for
persons, = beneficence, and justice) and/or institutional ethics
guidelines.

The workshop will be = invitation-only. The organizers will decide whom to
invite = based on the submissions received. Therefore, please indicate
your interest by submitting a research proposal by September = 29, 2021 to
aid-workshop-pc@iab.org.

The = Program Committee members are Niels ten Oever (chair, University of
Amsterdam), Colin Perkins (chair, IRTF, University of = Glasgow), Corinne
Cath (chair, Oxford Internet = Institute), Mirja K=C3=BChlewind (IAB,
Ericsson), Zhenbin = Li (IAB, Huawei), Wes Hardaker (IAB, USC/ISI).

All inputs submitted and considered relevant will be = published on the
workshop web page. Sessions will be = organized according to content, and
not every accepted = submission or invited attendee will have an
opportunity = to present as the intent is to foster discussion and not
simply to have a sequence of presentations.

Position papers from those unable to attend in person are = encouraged. A
workshop report will be published = afterwards.

Logistics

  =E2=80=A2 Submissions Due: 29 September 2021
  =E2=80=A2 Invitations Issued by: 15 October = 2021
  =E2=80=A2 Workshop Date: November 29 =E2=80= =93 December 3 2021
  =E2=80=A2 Location: = Online and at the University of Amsterdam (COVID-19
=     permitting).

The = workshop will consist of three parts:

=  1. opening workshop (Monday)
 2. hackathon = (Tuesday =E2=80=93 Thursday morning)
 3. closing = event (Thursday afternoon)

Feel free to = contact the program committee with any further questions
(including questions related to available data or expected = outcomes):
aid-workshop-pc@iab.org.

-----
[1] Examples of such approaches are:
https://www.arkko.com/tools/docstats.html,
http://datactive.github.io/bigbang/,
https://csperkins.org/research/protocol-standards/2020-12-10-ig= nacio-iesg-talk/2020-12-10_IESG-50-years-IETF-send.pdf,
https://sodestream.github.io/impact-of-early-engagement-on-long= evity-of-ietf-participation.html

[2] = https://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/sites/default/files/the-belmont-report-508c_FINAL= .pdf

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:59:02 -0000 Happy Friday everyone, In case you missed it, a writeup of the IETF 111 Hackathon was published on= the IETF blog earlier this week, https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf111-hackathon/ And shared via @ietf: https://twitter.com/ietf/status/1435773271841067010?s=3D20 The IETF 112 Hackathon will be online, 1-5 November. For more information a= nd to sign up, check out https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/hackathons/11= 2-hackathon/ If you act quickly, you can be among the first to add your project to the H= ackathon 112 wiki, https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon Cheers, Charles=20 From nobody Wed Sep 22 11:59:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2026B3A08A7 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:59:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <9EFD200D5AB5E544A95CF67D26EBB092@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2158ea9d-06e9-4be2-7ce0-08d97dfb2653 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Sep 2021 18:59:48.1232 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ApP1YfbAWdjCDhmKnvwP3BISRe0qSkHacStc6V5ulKDxUGdauzypVsCstMHIU8358HtDnfMVrQpGijx5LXw6Jw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR11MB4308 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.21, xbe-rcd-006.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [hackathon] HackNet for IETF 112 X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:59:56 -0000 Good news,=20 Remote connectivity to the virtual IETF network will again be provided via = HackNet, a special network designed to support teams within the IETF Hackat= hon. Info on capabilities and how to connect is available at: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon/hacknet_instructi= ons If you plan to use HackNet for your project, I recommend you get your setup= in order now as your team may need some time to acquire supported devices = and get them setup properly. Whether you plan to use HackNet or not, now is a good time to make sure all= the latest info on your project is listed on the wiki. The start of the Ha= ckathon is only a little over a month away. https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon Cheers, Charles From nobody Sat Sep 25 02:05:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18883A22CC for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:05:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=emailplus.org header.b=HOdECo72; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=sgyNPKZg Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iCb-hHRYPdUV for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6827F3A22C6 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C88D5C00E6 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 05:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 25 Sep 2021 05:04:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emailplus.org; h=from:subject:to:message-id:date:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=CsT4JtkBj6kzOhN+/fNGH53o1l P1WZ4S33Kl0gfZHs4=; b=HOdECo72xPRF1MonLzMKz8ogq0RpsKc1tC+FFyfdv5 BVJvqVSrN9iXTZepvOvfsuZCDbKWrK6kZkl+GqevvxR7C15iaty9dYZrSpzfJBjd ny5p0VFS56ZvjL5NFCl6NdgNftNNZNyy/pOszNvV+hpwFqDL9upqKlCGLONLpoGh pgK2s0n0R16jUdAI3hVnGPXSES43YZWRds6WWMiegDauEtR5M1N1XuXnGElU+u3f o0CSmsJSTkqLG6xVKTRxUEV5ES2r0PHLPgKzoJCM2VQJ6AS19Yws9n9FmE1ul6Wz IEM0fpeTSPH49RPopL+R8Cko9aCfEXZEF+mrOO+l2vhQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=CsT4Jt kBj6kzOhN+/fNGH53o1lP1WZ4S33Kl0gfZHs4=; b=sgyNPKZg/iw28dzSUqmdZs E46YDvUAP96S1ymQpSEVw1zmj7B26OzcqpVEJsc864vheBoCE1euqPw0pdlD/Mxz e4z3WGddyMwsPGX6++N6XWmqq2Ou+fQoBd+KKJDiUcdkk0WheEdBcnAeV3XeOfRG lc9ico55ZIbYA/h+dNnJtlrNVf0zOnfZOKRXgIKJSWzjIHVmeIaD3O5dkwUTCZ0+ JLRT9Nb1oHlREttUckuC4Z8ni81x4Of0uXnJj/v8b1U6EmzZBfXpvsTSp/zJNfu8 yy8AG89V+Z7xLmItP2Ge4k/mHfJYsPIa84Iw5uE8KGVrQWNjYWjVUf72FoF/8kgA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejfedguddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefhuffvkffffgggtgfgsehtjeertd dtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeeuvghnshhonhcuofhuihhtvgcuoegsvghnshhonhgpmhhuihht vgesvghmrghilhhplhhushdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfelvefgvdehue ffkeetffeikeeuvdeljeegudegheduieelgfdtueejueeftdfhnecuffhomhgrihhnpehi vghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfh hrohhmpegsvghnshhonhgpmhhuihhtvgesvghmrghilhhplhhushdrohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 05:04:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Benson Muite To: hackathon@ietf.org Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 12:04:53 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:05:05 -0000 Hi, Have proposed a hackathon topic on One Tax API: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon Many countries are proposing taxes on e-commerce and also labor services that are supplied from outside their jurisdictions that have been enabled by improvements in internet connectivity. Complying with these requirements can be time consuming and is a trade barrier for trade in items and services that do not require regulatory approval. Having a standardized API for reporting and paying these electronically would enable compliance at a low cost, especially since automation could be used. Privacy and security considerations are also important in creating a standard for such an interface. The aim of this hackathon project is to develop a prototype implementation that could become an RFC and be adopted as a standard. Suggestions and contributions are welcome. Regards, Benson From nobody Sat Sep 25 02:18:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5893A242A for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:18:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5EJHcer03AMr for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E3073A2425 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Lear-Air.local ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:f0b2:ca2a:6d9:d63a]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 18P9IVpv383795 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 25 Sep 2021 11:18:32 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1632561512; bh=hvMMAZrlrCoaT9EiL3GSuArlHLK4JbOQ9O6srQ0lO84=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=pd1v9cgYgfftWHuBPSgSyxpZwgTHkp/LzyyGxLKKkEYjRbnK9UMuSq6bQm+bnRhod RTGgmj38oib+5AGzgguTCC3hLTyn0s/g99PiYddsWV/nVwopXt+2N9cVRJw58rNT2O fqHrRiQqDXXNdm8NIZ9lGyP6jtOM3olV2SEYeRHE= To: Benson Muite , hackathon@ietf.org References: From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 11:18:29 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="b597PDPEc998MGmAibf4052UfSn105gSF" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:18:46 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --b597PDPEc998MGmAibf4052UfSn105gSF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="YBRphtKjlmk0udu8n2x3D2vrPsUSlEWcJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Benson Muite , hackathon@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal References: In-Reply-To: --YBRphtKjlmk0udu8n2x3D2vrPsUSlEWcJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Hi, In general I like a low bar for hackathons, but I am not sure that the=20 IETF should take this one on.=C2=A0 For one, it's not clear to me that th= is=20 isn't more a matter of data models rather than APIs. We also have no=20 experience with handling of this sort of information: this is WAY up the = stack. But if you're going to do this, we need to understand what code is going = to be hacked.=C2=A0 Are the developers from accounting packages going to = participate?=C2=A0 Can you lay out a bit more of a landscape here? Eliot On 25.09.21 11:04, Benson Muite wrote: > Hi, > > Have proposed a hackathon topic on One Tax API: > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon > Many countries are proposing taxes on e-commerce and also labor=20 > services that are supplied from outside their jurisdictions that have=20 > been enabled by improvements in internet connectivity. Complying with=20 > these requirements can be time consuming and is a trade barrier for=20 > trade in items and services that do not require regulatory approval.=C2= =A0=20 > Having a standardized API for reporting and paying these=20 > electronically would enable compliance at a low cost, especially since = > automation could be used.=C2=A0 Privacy and security considerations are= =20 > also important in creating a standard for such an interface. The aim=20 > of this hackathon project is to develop a prototype implementation=20 > that could become an RFC and be adopted as a standard. > > Suggestions and contributions are welcome. > > Regards, > Benson > > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe > --YBRphtKjlmk0udu8n2x3D2vrPsUSlEWcJ-- --b597PDPEc998MGmAibf4052UfSn105gSF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmFO6WYFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejO3 Bgf/Wta3vpDZuVDPTQr+EAvy11C5MON/BC34AOcmp+j0efeOUDdwYmXhxwdnC2TsHsJkLBgYwRCV svHCNmSsl5kIs6TXSnzvH8lYDwND7GCGdC+wnziborJB57unaoKcfwLXw0R+s2KgoGuQH9c8Sr8O Pu4z3j1t8JjAG8JPTXT4A0VySeUyxQFzwS4AnleDZaWBOq9HkCPS2+b6t7+LeEgRxDuF6vHPrgqU 5Vwz7j9xKZidJ0PiAJVu64yOfRjDDh5513rrglyJmeK8K/8Cpvi6A5JKfRsCPgP0KzAJfCWcvzV8 ulUvZTQqf+rTNNjhO7HwLkvbnbfxHUyNtK1TgY53ew== =oheE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --b597PDPEc998MGmAibf4052UfSn105gSF-- From nobody Sat Sep 25 04:48:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067AC3A0B67 for ; 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Sat, 25 Sep 2021 07:48:42 -0400 (EDT) To: Eliot Lear , hackathon@ietf.org References: From: Benson Muite Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 14:48:37 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 11:48:52 -0000 Hi, Thanks for your response. As a relatively open and neutral gathering of people with technical expertise, many of whom use and operate parts of the internet, this is probably a good setting to produce a technical draft that can be operationalized. High level agreements would of course be needed, but without some framework produced by people with technical expertise, these may take a long time to come into practice. Data models are certainly needed. In many cases, one needs: i) Relevant tax collection bodies ii) Identification numbers for the parties involved iii) Type of good or service and the relevant taxes to be paid, eg. sales tax, income tax iv) Some database lookup on the amount of tax to be paid. The main problems solve are: double registration - registering in one jurisdiction should enable you to sell in others and comply with regulations the relevant jurisdictions paperwork reduction - authorized electronic payments These would make small and moderate transactions easier to do, which regulatory burdens can make unprofitable. As many payments for such services are already done electronically (with relevant methods for authentication and collection of payment fees), specifying a method to query for the relevant compliance information can build on top of this. Traditional financial intermediaries already have identity information and comply with local laws. Tax residency is a complicated issue, see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_digital_goods Costs of protecting consumer rights for physical goods, and malware prevention for digital goods encourage honesty in digital transactions. An example of information an enterprise needs to comply with for e-commerce in Norway is available at: https://www.trade.gov/knowledge-product/norway-ecommerce A benefit of using the internet for commerce is that people in many different jurisdictions can reach your website. Registering to do business in every jurisdiction where people can access your website is very burdensome. To limit the scope for a hackathon, would suggest an initial focus on sales tax/VAT which usually goes to an official body in the location of the consumer or where the consumers payment method is registered. Benson On 9/25/21 12:18 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi, > > In general I like a low bar for hackathons, but I am not sure that the > IETF should take this one on.  For one, it's not clear to me that this > isn't more a matter of data models rather than APIs. We also have no > experience with handling of this sort of information: this is WAY up the > stack. > > But if you're going to do this, we need to understand what code is going > to be hacked.  Are the developers from accounting packages going to > participate?  Can you lay out a bit more of a landscape here? > > Eliot > > > On 25.09.21 11:04, Benson Muite wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Have proposed a hackathon topic on One Tax API: >> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon >> Many countries are proposing taxes on e-commerce and also labor >> services that are supplied from outside their jurisdictions that have >> been enabled by improvements in internet connectivity. Complying with >> these requirements can be time consuming and is a trade barrier for >> trade in items and services that do not require regulatory approval. >> Having a standardized API for reporting and paying these >> electronically would enable compliance at a low cost, especially since >> automation could be used.  Privacy and security considerations are >> also important in creating a standard for such an interface. The aim >> of this hackathon project is to develop a prototype implementation >> that could become an RFC and be adopted as a standard. >> >> Suggestions and contributions are welcome. >> >> Regards, >> Benson >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hackathon mailing list >> hackathon@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon >> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe >> > From nobody Sat Sep 25 08:19:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909823A16FF for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:19:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Mi3Qvas-8PL for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x330.google.com (mail-ot1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A6983A16FB for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x330.google.com with SMTP id o59-20020a9d2241000000b0054745f28c69so15404725ota.13 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:19:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=WTTPJ2GL3CYK4YW1gKvjBxRB/6jy0nSrw8qKzEza+K4=; b=c/zBamamlhrgqy1X5UNunA/OW35lmkW0OIRJkDoMQdrkNvK/+8a6z88JNtdxbhbuok lWPcLzJ8TUG+ZaYVYsGFi5NCFm8t1ak0cz4svHsWozs3P9R3A2wgkrT23OJhQQW+8gNF 5sBqcxxjMJmyahPWthUYST/gyolCvM5kmxORxA5LEU/lr2JVGWhEZLmG8uj/S7mO5E0H jGD7SwP37L67kHwyqy//WrG4/uwuPUcdLZmoh6H0Em+y1ZyJGSupNPemF+CepK2qRSEa Dx4cmnXF1RP1YTPXbjCoM/evk/l/G9F68AQcH1naayuO2Ap6OOQZrukY2nAe4eP2gLGl 0pLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=WTTPJ2GL3CYK4YW1gKvjBxRB/6jy0nSrw8qKzEza+K4=; b=aQwLmjBMY7ZRqPGuNI4awQ2fogpIoWGk6IiDRW6JYU3kpWdvEVJKElMrjrHfVu+Cay mMfscuX9lp4RRZI95f5P/smYEiMwVW4J9X6Bkh4nrOgBv5JkuYYxWC2sZiUiX9i6hNVL Ln4+a/zXp4OAVb3nT7mqW/q6k4IaFp+mT63vzHAEP7TUPpgzOsH/BsLNrGucmCdqZDV0 kh6ZHtQr2SDb16o/CTVXWcSZKCKmFbuGqUqtbp78+hkN4RCMtW5f4LR4FpE8WCpUqirb 6HKy7JcUDZsVXGyYerkWFLuhNkCZvtjLhx0q3yNEHXL82gJ626Ai4H35cyje/3GETDD0 fFBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531KVBTQRYgyo5+xEqW5mQPywLT+Jk0656x+NitPtPFY4OP2jhc5 r0yGSsQatjCzywpzlUn14NgcnzKp7sg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyljFfTgaKS74EVMjUfDppwGsIxnuwLckY4w/9h5ZFDnVy1r7Dxf9OPMDy7lZeXhuYD3aknBg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:165a:: with SMTP id h26mr9540516otr.301.1632583158290; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:659:79cc:8a72:95f:360a? ([2601:647:5a00:659:79cc:8a72:95f:360a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d68sm1167589otb.55.2021.09.25.08.19.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:19:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <4A45A5FF-F2F7-4030-8931-0A16BC44DC67@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_680E4A9C-16A2-4334-927A-88FCAE708622"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:19:16 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Benson Muite , hackathon@ietf.org To: Eliot Lear References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 15:19:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_680E4A9C-16A2-4334-927A-88FCAE708622 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Eliot, I had the same reaction to reading this proposal. It is a problem, but = pretty far away from anything IETF does. We don=E2=80=99t usually = develop APIs and I don=E2=80=99t read that this is related to any IETF = protocol development. Bob > On Sep 25, 2021, at 2:18 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > Hi, >=20 > In general I like a low bar for hackathons, but I am not sure that the = IETF should take this one on. For one, it's not clear to me that this = isn't more a matter of data models rather than APIs. We also have no = experience with handling of this sort of information: this is WAY up the = stack. >=20 > But if you're going to do this, we need to understand what code is = going to be hacked. Are the developers from accounting packages going = to participate? Can you lay out a bit more of a landscape here? >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 > On 25.09.21 11:04, Benson Muite wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> Have proposed a hackathon topic on One Tax API: >> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon >> Many countries are proposing taxes on e-commerce and also labor = services that are supplied from outside their jurisdictions that have = been enabled by improvements in internet connectivity. Complying with = these requirements can be time consuming and is a trade barrier for = trade in items and services that do not require regulatory approval. = Having a standardized API for reporting and paying these electronically = would enable compliance at a low cost, especially since automation could = be used. Privacy and security considerations are also important in = creating a standard for such an interface. The aim of this hackathon = project is to develop a prototype implementation that could become an = RFC and be adopted as a standard. >>=20 >> Suggestions and contributions are welcome. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Benson >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> hackathon mailing list >> hackathon@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon >> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_680E4A9C-16A2-4334-927A-88FCAE708622 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmFPPfQACgkQrut0EXfn u6iZGQgAost/XICi7Km1PvR0yMV2Mbmt4TTgWdFC7GMci+RBukMoLJzaoYa+XabE f5/q+phxPltYxzRvXjCGVS0J9xABxIG4dDNbb5XauIIPRf5XhsuMSHxGaKty2DL5 jfkatc2TZja9pO6S5K7AElhuVkPwdgA/7um12jiGe6RC2yyqO12tnycNYa3lZZjA rQNmTZqrsRrjyR3+V1YiV8Ay+slgcrKGZUUg15UzrbvYeaMG9BBKdpJCSKfqUXjd KXt/50/BwxLJiwh40ASgiByDSnh8EVzfYrHKHp+ixB24/FaeyFowQnK6KBM39W/F Rh2LKc+iXZtd++S9nF0Vtdt35Po1lQ== =NZwP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_680E4A9C-16A2-4334-927A-88FCAE708622-- From nobody Sat Sep 25 09:23:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D82C23A08B3 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:23:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R3OSy2_s_pXY for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E7F43A08B0 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id r75so16813781iod.7 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:23:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0Y8ZsDJ2/8P8YlfWQZvaaavsfdnlULy6am1Kid3N1HQ=; b=gvpVi77YEVHJcTryRPubsTPdKNaROURPAsJuC6JxD5f5MHdXcTN7QXTVmooqVoXdMy 713wT0elgclMGkzwW+Ec4t3nLgTSwoVdp14jpGbY/320MZU0kxxckk/PMWVbKjpQTFHf 9xbYFi1FZWC2Ophrbu0hYTGCVTK+ADvmtypmzkyp0VKPSCw98hT9JXLRXfKOLpeC2AsS uMEu6mXVsyhX/ounujsRGGmfW9pD8T7F4KfVASmkg2gXLJs91KijsX2pQLlnBI20FiU0 hVhMMlA3YU4ZqyddDV3P9hnQUzjYO0lT4lz9DULPMCAC7bJ5V5MDOWY8Py5nIB1WwO7f iPfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0Y8ZsDJ2/8P8YlfWQZvaaavsfdnlULy6am1Kid3N1HQ=; b=J4Kah0KtBUgdH3kjSj0WrPLGX3lQm8ArERNwznA6GIXObcbsE1+fPTBOmn+HT68Mll BqFxVOv0QkrXJ99ayF5IvU1I0uO48XzPAQJl9OKAezCQJOGPlB0v+g4RHjfD8LL60sz0 j74sWbMx2p2XodYqqzoRmvI3j0nAOlfXrV6ld0/sU2FoM+9skfKd9/dA2TRXMfQtf4op jlfj7AcGEfJ6u/V7ubyjbXaNJNb1aBeAnfFpo7OknWyLrOv2chR4jH7T4TammngG4xnK 3pvUYCpFX48BmWPX1Ytx8ae4hcsLu5TxNecMUtgulMHe4d9DGOpzyr56z8GjCfD+Un87 HlfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531iWudJhWLxyWIf1lEih3WKW8zLA+8R0oqOqVVaz8sbUqCXTD3q SWWlv11X1AK3fjW9N5Ejn8kG35vjRUzvXwOu+c0oam6LWyd9Ow== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKk6KAXMDmYHriAlXmIT1EeVsE5/dmniMORSUsXW9yuQF7zbkOS164WVIeNDBLiPj3nAMxSEaUKTci73zKGv4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1a:: with SMTP id b26mr13611644ioa.0.1632587021402; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:23:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 09:23:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: Benson Muite , hackathon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000079e31705ccd449e1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 16:23:48 -0000 --00000000000079e31705ccd449e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 2:19 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi, > > In general I like a low bar for hackathons, but I am not sure that the > IETF should take this one on. For one, it's not clear to me that this > isn't more a matter of data models rather than APIs. We also have no > experience with handling of this sort of information: this is WAY up the > stack. > Without taking a position on this proposal, since when do we monitor what people work on at the hackathon? It's a lot more like a free-for-all than a BOF and having people work on something at a hackathon certainly isn't any kind of commitment to take the work on at the IETF. > But if you're going to do this, we need to understand what code is going > to be hacked. Are the developers from accounting packages going to > participate? Can you lay out a bit more of a landscape here? > These seem like reasonable questions, but I don't agree with the framing that we "need" to understand them. If you don't want to participate without an answer, don't do so, but that shouldn't stop others from doing it. -Ekr > Eliot > > > On 25.09.21 11:04, Benson Muite wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Have proposed a hackathon topic on One Tax API: > > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon > > Many countries are proposing taxes on e-commerce and also labor > > services that are supplied from outside their jurisdictions that have > > been enabled by improvements in internet connectivity. Complying with > > these requirements can be time consuming and is a trade barrier for > > trade in items and services that do not require regulatory approval. > > Having a standardized API for reporting and paying these > > electronically would enable compliance at a low cost, especially since > > automation could be used. Privacy and security considerations are > > also important in creating a standard for such an interface. The aim > > of this hackathon project is to develop a prototype implementation > > that could become an RFC and be adopted as a standard. > > > > Suggestions and contributions are welcome. > > > > Regards, > > Benson > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hackathon mailing list > > hackathon@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe > > > > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe > --00000000000079e31705ccd449e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 2:19 AM Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
Hi,

In general I like a low bar for hackathons, but I am not sure that the
IETF should take this one on.=C2=A0 For one, it's not clear to me that = this
isn't more a matter of data models rather than APIs. We also have no experience with handling of this sort of information: this is WAY up the stack.

Without taking a position o= n this proposal, since when do we=20 monitor what people work on at the hackathon? It's a lot more like a=20 free-for-all than a BOF and having people work on something at a=20 hackathon certainly isn't any kind of commitment to take the work on at= the IETF.

=C2=A0
But if you're going to do this, we need to understand what code is goin= g
to be hacked.=C2=A0 Are the developers from accounting packages going to participate?=C2=A0 Can you lay out a bit more of a landscape here?

These seem like reasonable questions, but I don= 't agree with the framing that we "need" to understand them. = If you don't want to participate without an answer, don't do so, bu= t that shouldn't stop others from doing it.

-Ekr

https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meetin= g/wiki/112hackathon
> Many countries are proposing taxes on e-commerce and also labor
> services that are supplied from outside their jurisdictions that have =
> been enabled by improvements in internet connectivity. Complying with =
> these requirements can be time consuming and is a trade barrier for > trade in items and services that do not require regulatory approval.= =C2=A0
> Having a standardized API for reporting and paying these
> electronically would enable compliance at a low cost, especially since=
> automation could be used.=C2=A0 Privacy and security considerations ar= e
> also important in creating a standard for such an interface. The aim <= br> > of this hackathon project is to develop a prototype implementation > that could become an RFC and be adopted as a standard.
>
> Suggestions and contributions are welcome.
>
> Regards,
> Benson
>
> _______________________________________________
> hackathon mailing list
> hackathon@ietf= .org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon<= /a>
> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe
>

_______________________________________________
hackathon mailing list
hackathon@ietf.org<= /a>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe
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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 17:29:02 -0000 --HH90fzTIKuRn5gDDINMuLUwC9gv3JEA2o Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="9qAFCRdnePzmWqJUHBEcsJn5Kk3smyuxM"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear Cc: Benson Muite , hackathon Message-ID: <088b7601-89b2-7dc2-0441-0fea27921716@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal References: In-Reply-To: --9qAFCRdnePzmWqJUHBEcsJn5Kk3smyuxM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F50B47A3FE4744FE278C0E54" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F50B47A3FE4744FE278C0E54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 25/09/2021 17:23, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Without taking a position on this proposal, since when do we monitor wh= at > people work on at the hackathon? It's a lot more like a free-for-all th= an a > BOF and having people work on something at a hackathon certainly isn't = any > kind of commitment to take the work on at the IETF. +1 S --------------F50B47A3FE4744FE278C0E54 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC 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Brunner-Williams" To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Eric Rescorla , Eliot Lear , Benson Muite , hackathon In-Reply-To: <088b7601-89b2-7dc2-0441-0fea27921716@cs.tcd.ie> References: <088b7601-89b2-7dc2-0441-0fea27921716@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.4.11 Message-ID: X-Sender: tbrunner@uoregon.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Proofpoint-GUID: JW9ZXyk-lmdRLDbCfWBGKtIyhxUj4jF_ X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: JW9ZXyk-lmdRLDbCfWBGKtIyhxUj4jF_ X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-25_06,2021-09-24_02,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxlogscore=485 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2109250143 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 18:42:13 -0000 i think it rational to take a position on this proposal. not interested. also not in scope. try icann. -e On 2021-09-25 10:28, Stephen Farrell wrote: > On 25/09/2021 17:23, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> Without taking a position on this proposal, since when do we monitor >> what >> people work on at the hackathon? It's a lot more like a free-for-all >> than a >> BOF and having people work on something at a hackathon certainly isn't >> any >> kind of commitment to take the work on at the IETF. > > +1 > > S > > > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe From nobody Sat Sep 25 13:12:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447F03A2183 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 13:12:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=protonmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lsO34XdqSrAX for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 13:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch (mail-4319.protonmail.ch [185.70.43.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E87AF3A2185 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 13:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 20:12:23 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail; t=1632600750; bh=v/cgeR+3CMV3QC+Hxvjs2y9FlsXrd6ofKexqSF4fAuU=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=yAzV/p+9Ow4rhwkmoLQ+OR16MU0INZqSn+pH2GxrtT7VEzJBrhXFKnuyPjPOcBGuq MSWDnxcEdwYi0i0q5giUvFLg5AOcmdEzWUeQqcaiAKj9xfQZJJUn//Jfru9/Ehz+n+ dPhDi7rA53w56WVUUQ3vD/4BOXcTeNcsu4d8NwDg= To: "Thomas \"Eric\" Brunner-Williams" , Stephen Farrell From: andihavemilestogobeforeisleep Cc: Eric Rescorla , hackathon , Benson Muite , Eliot Lear Reply-To: andihavemilestogobeforeisleep Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <088b7601-89b2-7dc2-0441-0fea27921716@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="b1_FWS1LS6L0DJuxTAB2AtimkTFRQyhHrUW4MC1CxzzUc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." 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Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:43:31 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1632645813; bh=e3Ni/COT9IFOiqb0cHsbpoh9YSODuHJ6ec+KKZhymVA=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=dnQplqTukG9ij31u+WfIug0GdqASed41TttwJ4Af+vCxC1At3K8WdHwU/HhTtr/sj boGEaDCe6CmCF/iQonqJWPCBZlFv0eSkbrHRWtRcAM8s3gShbV+yENTZElfBwteSV7 FqTDWDk7Kj7wkH4XE5thlHPIlbZ0yfMpq30l8xz8= To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Benson Muite , hackathon References: From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:43:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="L5eN6kDvyvJQFD1lIXT1skUo8yKj0Kubv" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:43:45 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --L5eN6kDvyvJQFD1lIXT1skUo8yKj0Kubv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="w4EUjqVf9LTobwOMI2szsVmQzGhd0XdPU"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Benson Muite , hackathon Message-ID: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal References: In-Reply-To: --w4EUjqVf9LTobwOMI2szsVmQzGhd0XdPU Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9722B26C1C783EDB20051B65" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9722B26C1C783EDB20051B65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable EKR, The issue here is more about likelihood of actually accomplishing=20 anything.=C2=A0 Do YOU have a codebase that worries about taxes? Do you p= lan=20 to add this sort of code into your base?=C2=A0 I don't and I don't know=20 anyone who does.=C2=A0 Do you know of any code base to add this stuff to?= =C2=A0 I=20 don't and I don't know anyone who does. If people who DO have such code bases ARE going to show, then the next=20 question is whether anyone who participates in the IETF can reasonably=20 help them.=C2=A0 This isn't a matter of protocol design.=C2=A0 If not, wh= at does=20 the IETF hackathon bring to the table other than... a table (and right=20 now we can't even bring that)? But, Benson, EKR's right:=C2=A0 I can't stand in the way of you doing the= =20 work here.=C2=A0 I just think it'll be a waste of your time, and possibly= =20 drive you in the wrong direction. Eliot On 25.09.21 18:23, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 2:19 AM Eliot Lear > wrote: > > Hi, > > In general I like a low bar for hackathons, but I am not sure that > the > IETF should take this one on.=C2=A0 For one, it's not clear to me t= hat > this > isn't more a matter of data models rather than APIs. We also have n= o > experience with handling of this sort of information: this is WAY > up the > stack. > > > Without taking a position on this proposal, since when do we monitor=20 > what people work on at the hackathon? It's a lot more like a=20 > free-for-all than a BOF and having people work on something at a=20 > hackathon certainly isn't any kind of commitment to take the work on=20 > at the IETF. > > But if you're going to do this, we need to understand what code is > going > to be hacked.=C2=A0 Are the developers from accounting packages goi= ng to > participate?=C2=A0 Can you lay out a bit more of a landscape here? > > > These seem like reasonable questions, but I don't agree with the=20 > framing that we "need" to understand them. If you don't want to=20 > participate without an answer, don't do so, but that shouldn't stop=20 > others from doing it. > > -Ekr > > > Eliot > > > On 25.09.21 11:04, Benson Muite wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Have proposed a hackathon topic on One Tax API: > > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon > > > Many countries are proposing taxes on e-commerce and also labor > > services that are supplied from outside their jurisdictions that > have > > been enabled by improvements in internet connectivity. Complying > with > > these requirements can be time consuming and is a trade barrier f= or > > trade in items and services that do not require regulatory > approval. > > Having a standardized API for reporting and paying these > > electronically would enable compliance at a low cost, especially > since > > automation could be used.=C2=A0 Privacy and security consideratio= ns are > > also important in creating a standard for such an interface. The > aim > > of this hackathon project is to develop a prototype implementatio= n > > that could become an RFC and be adopted as a standard. > > > > Suggestions and contributions are welcome. > > > > Regards, > > Benson > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hackathon mailing list > > hackathon@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > > > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org > ?subject=3Dunsubscribe > > > > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org > ?subject=3Dunsubscribe > --------------9722B26C1C783EDB20051B65 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

EKR,

The issue here is more about likelihood of actually accomplishing anything.=C2=A0 Do YOU have a codebase that worries about taxes? Do= you plan to add this sort of code into your base?=C2=A0 I don't and I d= on't know anyone who does.=C2=A0 Do you know of any code base to add thi= s stuff to?=C2=A0 I don't and I don't know anyone who does.

If people who DO have such code bases ARE going to show, then the next question is whether anyone who participates in the IETF can reasonably help them.=C2=A0 This isn't a matter of protocol design.= =C2=A0 If not, what does the IETF hackathon bring to the table other than... a table (and right now we can't even bring that)?

But, Benson, EKR's right:=C2=A0 I can't stand in the way of you do= ing the work here.=C2=A0 I just think it'll be a waste of your time, an= d possibly drive you in the wrong direction.

Eliot

On 25.09.21 18:23, Eric Rescorla wrote= :

On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 2= :19 AM Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
Hi,

In general I like a low bar for hackathons, but I am not sure that the
IETF should take this one on.=C2=A0 For one, it's not clear t= o me that this
isn't more a matter of data models rather than APIs. We also have no
experience with handling of this sort of information: this is WAY up the
stack.

Without taking a position on this proposal, since when do we monitor what people work on at the hackathon? It's a lot more like a free-for-all than a BOF and having people work on something at a hackathon certainly isn't any kind of commitment to take the work on at the IETF.

=C2=A0
But if you're going to do this, we need to understand what code is going
to be hacked.=C2=A0 Are the developers from accounting packag= es going to
participate?=C2=A0 Can you lay out a bit more of a landscape here?

These seem like reasonable questions, but I don't agree with the framing that we "need" to understand them. If you don't want to participate without an answer, don't do so, but that shouldn't stop others from doing it.

-Ekr


Eliot


On 25.09.21 11:04, Benson Muite wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Have proposed a hackathon topic on One Tax API:
> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon
> Many countries are proposing taxes on e-commerce and also labor
> services that are supplied from outside their jurisdictions that have
> been enabled by improvements in internet connectivity. Complying with
> these requirements can be time consuming and is a trade barrier for
> trade in items and services that do not require regulatory approval.=C2=A0
> Having a standardized API for reporting and paying these
> electronically would enable compliance at a low cost, especially since
> automation could be used.=C2=A0 Privacy and security considerations are
> also important in creating a standard for such an interface. The aim
> of this hackathon project is to develop a prototype implementation
> that could become an RFC and be adopted as a standard. >
> Suggestions and contributions are welcome.
>
> Regards,
> Benson
>
> _______________________________________________
> hackathon mailing list
> hackathon@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon
> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?sub= ject=3Dunsubscribe
>

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 09:40:26 -0000 Since when we cared about this? This is hackathon - an event where people ga= ther, socialize and hack together for fun, not a work camp. If there=E2=80=99s more people wanting to work on this then great! If not al= so great, I would gladly welcome Benson to the hackathon nevertheless and he= ar about his results (or not) at the end. Ond=C5=99ej -- Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him) My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel= obligated to reply outside your normal working hours. > On 26. 9. 2021, at 10:43, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > The issue here is more about likelihood of actually accomplishing anything= . From nobody Sun Sep 26 03:03:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E023A1CC0 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 03:03:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=emailplus.org header.b=VkF/guUT; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=h1Jz0rEo Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qtoxSIOEyhEv for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 03:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADE293A1CC3 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 03:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B39F53200927; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 06:03:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 26 Sep 2021 06:03:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emailplus.org; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=E 7HFXC6h9FBMxpVkSBgwcQjCYDAk+osOfQtcrSGc3DQ=; b=VkF/guUT3XZH6cHnB 6XrwcB63DOXCt5Jb7W3VFG9mrXjbqyzL12Xp0ECoUuvylND6ktdunxZP2yiV3ND5 N0OkXMMjVeLimklCGOfz8q9cHVmGz7v+2g0pRx21crUUcUftoORM4Z+gGVCzTEUc Aydkao3nEXaylyKmaOoB/0eRcD9FAdfCR55tZ/4qjLQHrzSwl8nGhXPidGVeeYnH srL8UAwdDzqFVBPZM2K56dRx6fYm5PHT0MIL1g8mcoC+1g5RnAe2sw+/BgHSTNvc UD0PN2Y6LdC54wotwg54LH4Pz13DD8F6RQXPYQB78VOTpK81SNiAU7Xwot+KAYP7 kQCAw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=E7HFXC6h9FBMxpVkSBgwcQjCYDAk+osOfQtcrSGc3 DQ=; b=h1Jz0rEoj41VJOgICqhnRNj5CJ2eSm0Rd5RXTZoSW2x9Ou7rQJHBVtbCo P6XVdi0sCEH3rmQiczvoQ5P8/EI5FGB+on/Q6NkfFmqEbtmaWdAeIVNakcKaTxfw OgjMid4lMI62diXCJh8tGQcegiPtSvnSf2LgzRMWeCxr4KL4Lz6rbeNQFYNRvCyp QwQw4keIBkEfcku4JZyOiiltOmb6U7lAwXBDV/zlJd3JJMgm9yXR/iX4+w3bvlee gEXsjz1BEj0rJwWLKKTxpKaOMjexrdInCuh18Vx4fw/l7WU6hSuW+OoYkHg98+6Z ciTlBrlKlH+UFzDrmZ9pN78tap30w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejiedgvddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepuegvnhhs ohhnucfouhhithgvuceosggvnhhsohhnpghmuhhithgvsegvmhgrihhlphhluhhsrdhorh hgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeltdevjedvudekheeifeduieevhfetkefhiedvtdei tdejkeeiffeiheeludetueenucffohhmrghinhepihhtrghtohhnlhhinhgvrdhorhhgpd hhohhmvgdrkhhpmhhgpdhgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhs thgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsggvnhhsohhnpghmuh hithgvsegvmhgrihhlphhluhhsrdhorhhg X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 06:03:33 -0400 (EDT) To: Eliot Lear , Eric Rescorla Cc: hackathon References: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> From: Benson Muite Message-ID: <4019dda0-8c61-4a49-48e4-195cd03aec7f@emailplus.org> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:03:23 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:03:44 -0000 Dear Eliot and Eric, Thanks for your feedback. Just announcing on this list as suggested in the Hackathon wiki. Clearly, not everyone on this list will participate in every project, but feedback is still appreciated. One particular use case is taxation of cloud services: https://itatonline.org/articles_new/a-closer-look-at-taxation-of-cloud-services-internationally/ Some companies which provide services through the cloud and will be affected by such taxes and do have employees who participate in IETF. They may want to have some say in how they could easily facilitate payment of such taxes in many territories without unnecessary administrative burden. KPMG has a set of articles on e-taxes: https://home.kpmg/us/en/home/insights/2019/06/tnf-digital-economy0.html A recent example is from Cambodia: https://home.kpmg/us/en/home/insights/2021/09/tnf-cambodia-vat-ecommerce.html Within the EU, Peppol ( https://github.com/OpenPEPPOL/ ) is one effort to harmonize electronic invoicing, whether this will be adopted internationally remains to be seen. The scope is much broader than proposed here. As you indicate, a hackathon should have a clear achievable target. As indicated in a previous reply for VAT/Sales tax, one needs: i) Relevant tax collection bodies ii) Identification numbers for the parties involved iii) Type of good or service and the relevant taxes to be paid, eg. sales tax, income tax iv) Some database lookup on the amount of tax to be paid. The main problems to solve are: double registration - registering in one jurisdiction should enable you to sell in others and comply with regulations the relevant jurisdictions for many products and services paperwork reduction - authorized electronic payments and electronic identity confirmation can really help here, for example a certain jurisdiction has a paperwork reduction act, the main effect of which is to indicate how many hours are needed to fill a form, rather than milliseconds of allowed time to respond to an electronic request. Benson On 9/26/21 11:43 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > EKR, > > The issue here is more about likelihood of actually accomplishing > anything.  Do YOU have a codebase that worries about taxes? Do you plan > to add this sort of code into your base?  I don't and I don't know > anyone who does.  Do you know of any code base to add this stuff to?  I > don't and I don't know anyone who does. > > If people who DO have such code bases ARE going to show, then the next > question is whether anyone who participates in the IETF can reasonably > help them.  This isn't a matter of protocol design.  If not, what does > the IETF hackathon bring to the table other than... a table (and right > now we can't even bring that)? > > But, Benson, EKR's right:  I can't stand in the way of you doing the > work here.  I just think it'll be a waste of your time, and possibly > drive you in the wrong direction. > > Eliot > > On 25.09.21 18:23, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 2:19 AM Eliot Lear > > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> In general I like a low bar for hackathons, but I am not sure that >> the >> IETF should take this one on.  For one, it's not clear to me that >> this >> isn't more a matter of data models rather than APIs. We also have no >> experience with handling of this sort of information: this is WAY >> up the >> stack. >> >> >> Without taking a position on this proposal, since when do we monitor >> what people work on at the hackathon? It's a lot more like a >> free-for-all than a BOF and having people work on something at a >> hackathon certainly isn't any kind of commitment to take the work on >> at the IETF. >> >> But if you're going to do this, we need to understand what code is >> going >> to be hacked.  Are the developers from accounting packages going to >> participate?  Can you lay out a bit more of a landscape here? >> >> >> These seem like reasonable questions, but I don't agree with the >> framing that we "need" to understand them. If you don't want to >> participate without an answer, don't do so, but that shouldn't stop >> others from doing it. >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> Eliot >> >> >> On 25.09.21 11:04, Benson Muite wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > Have proposed a hackathon topic on One Tax API: >> > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon >> >> > Many countries are proposing taxes on e-commerce and also labor >> > services that are supplied from outside their jurisdictions that >> have >> > been enabled by improvements in internet connectivity. Complying >> with >> > these requirements can be time consuming and is a trade barrier for >> > trade in items and services that do not require regulatory >> approval. >> > Having a standardized API for reporting and paying these >> > electronically would enable compliance at a low cost, especially >> since >> > automation could be used.  Privacy and security considerations are >> > also important in creating a standard for such an interface. The >> aim >> > of this hackathon project is to develop a prototype implementation >> > that could become an RFC and be adopted as a standard. >> > >> > Suggestions and contributions are welcome. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Benson >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > hackathon mailing list >> > hackathon@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon >> >> > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org >> ?subject=unsubscribe >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hackathon mailing list >> hackathon@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon >> >> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org >> ?subject=unsubscribe >> From nobody Sun Sep 26 05:59:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED743A2331 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 05:59:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=pycon-or-tz.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ec7flRIPDRqy for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 05:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A4F93A2329 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 05:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id z7so527477qto.7 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 05:59:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pycon-or-tz.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZOJjbytTLB0wniB8dcoSMaBRnILe7nsq7NXMeP60ahI=; b=fPS7OokGgE1X68HXzvmJ/Bnh0fw2EZWsFHQW4UUbApi1ki9V8wdL/EP8SSRsPC/1wd 2zroh1S4J68REPKC0hwPaxgyJK8b4tEK81nedDz3Fo9fvQS1I+BEaLaeuRHxwfQnIqd1 w9+Qs6e6seybfo8MTHhBfcBAE53jdfN82L4rDdAK8/F+GwWpOVxI1IaGhMEDL5rfZUH5 LzstDX0S4JkV/s1SOjaSUBnTlv/GxMiZRrW08I49scvcDS8U3HgiHDca5xEVi7lU4Dsq mer4HZgUqW/4boCdBSnzAofMpwIdbO4KDvwb9wAJSUF4z/wAU69T3Edw+QJrvTBKleqS L6rA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZOJjbytTLB0wniB8dcoSMaBRnILe7nsq7NXMeP60ahI=; b=bOeAYrgQYkGlyhMOfXj5GG7WS32dGRjmLVNU/BQht+KA7IMJg7vk7HPX7Am2DbVRjX YrBhBnO3Qi8GnyQ/PTCed7TYMHORvJ3I0IyY0CrTXFc3rzwAMtIVLY4PWUz8Y2PVRDvj OzZVEUhbR48yXOSZp/ARlwTuBPtc43TuE9tXaoJjLIR7AFE7peHNngGk0F9+2HmnH4bS acyS2cggTNkbHUrl5QYUkAHp7Q1kFseKI5g60ROx4tRUVr9wyseqKFzFVx8EWMLDUBHu bHJMKR23q/JCwUMO9504skhhMjtbj/Jay29m9x3zYZ4zHjTE0ByNErBDPT/8atMQSkeg 4hLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533sKn+P8W597GhJaQkJ+Cod8fDaYC+8mbDQpi6jn+26TzXLinc6 7QIDzf0dyi5MklNtmYSKwzIwADUgvZp+8wOcn4vKPvnj/cAI1Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyqxH8bLkunhbmkJHW+oMLhjKlZNx4J8Kx2s6jDigLroZp1xaVSR5z2rErnZTfZVCAG3Uro8mZbJq8dcUtaTZw= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4084:: with SMTP id p4mr14040943qtl.255.1632661142037; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 05:59:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> <4019dda0-8c61-4a49-48e4-195cd03aec7f@emailplus.org> In-Reply-To: <4019dda0-8c61-4a49-48e4-195cd03aec7f@emailplus.org> From: "Noah ." Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 15:58:50 +0300 Message-ID: To: Benson Muite Cc: Eliot Lear , Eric Rescorla , hackathon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068f77c05cce58b7d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:59:10 -0000 --00000000000068f77c05cce58b7d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Benson If this will get a green light as a hackathon, I would love to participate and perhaps bring others on board as I foresee the usefulness of such a project considering how many African governments are currently coming with random taxes for all sorts of online use cases. Noah On Sun, 26 Sep 2021, 13:04 Benson Muite, wrote: > Dear Eliot and Eric, > > Thanks for your feedback. Just announcing on this list as suggested in > the Hackathon wiki. Clearly, not everyone on this list will participate > in every project, but feedback is still appreciated. > > One particular use case is taxation of cloud services: > > > https://itatonline.org/articles_new/a-closer-look-at-taxation-of-cloud-services-internationally/ > > Some companies which provide services through the cloud and will be > affected by such taxes and do have employees who participate in IETF. > They may want to have some say in how they could easily facilitate > payment of such taxes in many territories without unnecessary > administrative burden. > > KPMG has a set of articles on e-taxes: > https://home.kpmg/us/en/home/insights/2019/06/tnf-digital-economy0.html > > A recent example is from Cambodia: > > https://home.kpmg/us/en/home/insights/2021/09/tnf-cambodia-vat-ecommerce.html > > Within the EU, Peppol ( https://github.com/OpenPEPPOL/ ) is one effort > to harmonize electronic invoicing, whether this will be adopted > internationally remains to be seen. The scope is much broader than > proposed here. > > As you indicate, a hackathon should have a clear achievable target. As > indicated in a previous reply for VAT/Sales tax, one needs: > i) Relevant tax collection bodies > ii) Identification numbers for the parties involved > iii) Type of good or service and the relevant taxes to be paid, eg. > sales tax, income tax > iv) Some database lookup on the amount of tax to be paid. > > The main problems to solve are: > double registration - registering in one jurisdiction should enable you > to sell in others and comply with regulations the relevant jurisdictions > for many products and services > paperwork reduction - authorized electronic payments and electronic > identity confirmation can really help here, for example a certain > jurisdiction has a paperwork reduction act, the main effect of which is > to indicate how many hours are needed to fill a form, rather than > milliseconds of allowed time to respond to an electronic request. > > Benson > > On 9/26/21 11:43 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > EKR, > > > > The issue here is more about likelihood of actually accomplishing > > anything. Do YOU have a codebase that worries about taxes? Do you plan > > to add this sort of code into your base? I don't and I don't know > > anyone who does. Do you know of any code base to add this stuff to? I > > don't and I don't know anyone who does. > > > > If people who DO have such code bases ARE going to show, then the next > > question is whether anyone who participates in the IETF can reasonably > > help them. This isn't a matter of protocol design. If not, what does > > the IETF hackathon bring to the table other than... a table (and right > > now we can't even bring that)? > > > > But, Benson, EKR's right: I can't stand in the way of you doing the > > work here. I just think it'll be a waste of your time, and possibly > > drive you in the wrong direction. > > > > Eliot > > > > On 25.09.21 18:23, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> > >> On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 2:19 AM Eliot Lear >> > wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> In general I like a low bar for hackathons, but I am not sure that > >> the > >> IETF should take this one on. For one, it's not clear to me that > >> this > >> isn't more a matter of data models rather than APIs. We also have no > >> experience with handling of this sort of information: this is WAY > >> up the > >> stack. > >> > >> > >> Without taking a position on this proposal, since when do we monitor > >> what people work on at the hackathon? It's a lot more like a > >> free-for-all than a BOF and having people work on something at a > >> hackathon certainly isn't any kind of commitment to take the work on > >> at the IETF. > >> > >> But if you're going to do this, we need to understand what code is > >> going > >> to be hacked. Are the developers from accounting packages going to > >> participate? Can you lay out a bit more of a landscape here? > >> > >> > >> These seem like reasonable questions, but I don't agree with the > >> framing that we "need" to understand them. If you don't want to > >> participate without an answer, don't do so, but that shouldn't stop > >> others from doing it. > >> > >> -Ekr > >> > >> > >> Eliot > >> > >> > >> On 25.09.21 11:04, Benson Muite wrote: > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > Have proposed a hackathon topic on One Tax API: > >> > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon > >> > >> > Many countries are proposing taxes on e-commerce and also labor > >> > services that are supplied from outside their jurisdictions that > >> have > >> > been enabled by improvements in internet connectivity. Complying > >> with > >> > these requirements can be time consuming and is a trade barrier > for > >> > trade in items and services that do not require regulatory > >> approval. > >> > Having a standardized API for reporting and paying these > >> > electronically would enable compliance at a low cost, especially > >> since > >> > automation could be used. Privacy and security considerations are > >> > also important in creating a standard for such an interface. The > >> aim > >> > of this hackathon project is to develop a prototype implementation > >> > that could become an RFC and be adopted as a standard. > >> > > >> > Suggestions and contributions are welcome. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > Benson > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > hackathon mailing list > >> > hackathon@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > >> > >> > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org > >> ?subject=unsubscribe > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> hackathon mailing list > >> hackathon@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > >> > >> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org > >> ?subject=unsubscribe > >> > > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe > --00000000000068f77c05cce58b7d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Benson

If= this will get a green light as a hackathon, I would love to participate an= d perhaps bring others on board as I foresee the usefulness of such a proje= ct considering how many African governments are currently coming with rando= m taxes for all sorts of online use cases.=C2=A0
Noah

On Sun, 26 Sep 2021, 13:04 Benson Muite,= <benson_muite@emailplus.o= rg> wrote:
Dear Eliot and Er= ic,

Thanks for your feedback. Just announcing on this list as suggested in
the Hackathon wiki. Clearly, not everyone on this list will participate in every project, but feedback is still appreciated.

One particular use case is taxation of cloud services:

https://itatonline.org/articles_new/a-closer-look-at-taxation-of-clo= ud-services-internationally/

Some companies which provide services through the cloud and will be
affected by such taxes and do have employees who participate in IETF.
They may want to have some say in how they could easily facilitate
payment of such taxes in many territories without unnecessary
administrative burden.

KPMG has a set of articles on e-taxes:
https://home.kpmg/= us/en/home/insights/2019/06/tnf-digital-economy0.html

A recent example is from Cambodia:
https://home= .kpmg/us/en/home/insights/2021/09/tnf-cambodia-vat-ecommerce.html

Within the EU, Peppol ( https://github.com/OpenPEPPOL/ = ) is one effort
to harmonize electronic invoicing, whether this will be adopted
internationally remains to be seen. The scope is much broader than
proposed here.

As you indicate, a hackathon should have a clear achievable target. As
indicated in a previous reply for VAT/Sales tax, one needs:
i) Relevant tax collection bodies
ii) Identification numbers for the parties involved
iii) Type of good or service and the relevant taxes to be paid, eg.
sales tax, income tax
iv) Some database lookup on the amount of tax to be paid.

The main problems to solve are:
double registration - registering in one jurisdiction should enable you to sell in others and comply with regulations the relevant jurisdictions for many products and services
paperwork reduction - authorized electronic payments and electronic
identity confirmation can really help here, for example a certain
jurisdiction has a paperwork reduction act, the main effect of which is to indicate how many hours are needed to fill a form, rather than
milliseconds of allowed time to respond to an electronic request.

Benson

On 9/26/21 11:43 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
> EKR,
>
> The issue here is more about likelihood of actually accomplishing
> anything.=C2=A0 Do YOU have a codebase that worries about taxes? Do yo= u plan
> to add this sort of code into your base?=C2=A0 I don't and I don&#= 39;t know
> anyone who does.=C2=A0 Do you know of any code base to add this stuff = to?=C2=A0 I
> don't and I don't know anyone who does.
>
> If people who DO have such code bases ARE going to show, then the next=
> question is whether anyone who participates in the IETF can reasonably=
> help them.=C2=A0 This isn't a matter of protocol design.=C2=A0 If = not, what does
> the IETF hackathon bring to the table other than... a table (and right=
> now we can't even bring that)?
>
> But, Benson, EKR's right:=C2=A0 I can't stand in the way of yo= u doing the
> work here.=C2=A0 I just think it'll be a waste of your time, and p= ossibly
> drive you in the wrong direction.
>
> Eliot
>
> On 25.09.21 18:23, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 2:19 AM Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch
>> <mailto:lear@lear.ch>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi,
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In general I like a low bar for hackathons, but= I am not sure that
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF should take this one on.=C2=A0 For one, it= 's not clear to me that
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0isn't more a matter of data models rather t= han APIs. We also have no
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0experience with handling of this sort of inform= ation: this is WAY
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0up the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stack.
>>
>>
>> Without taking a position on this proposal, since when do we monit= or
>> what people work on at the hackathon? It's a lot more like a <= br> >> free-for-all than a BOF and having people work on something at a <= br> >> hackathon certainly isn't any kind of commitment to take the w= ork on
>> at the IETF.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But if you're going to do this, we need to = understand what code is
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0going
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be hacked.=C2=A0 Are the developers from acc= ounting packages going to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0participate?=C2=A0 Can you lay out a bit more o= f a landscape here?
>>
>>
>> These seem like reasonable questions, but I don't agree with t= he
>> framing that we "need" to understand them. If you don= 9;t want to
>> participate without an answer, don't do so, but that shouldn&#= 39;t stop
>> others from doing it.
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Eliot
>>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 25.09.21 11:04, Benson Muite wrote:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Hi,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Have proposed a hackathon topic on One Tax= API:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Many countries are proposing taxes on e-co= mmerce and also labor
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> services that are supplied from outside th= eir jurisdictions that
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> been enabled by improvements in internet c= onnectivity. Complying
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> these requirements can be time consuming a= nd is a trade barrier for
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> trade in items and services that do not re= quire regulatory
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0approval.
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Having a standardized API for reporting an= d paying these
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> electronically would enable compliance at = a low cost, especially
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0since
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> automation could be used.=C2=A0 Privacy an= d security considerations are
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> also important in creating a standard for = such an interface. The
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0aim
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> of this hackathon project is to develop a = prototype implementation
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> that could become an RFC and be adopted as= a standard.
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Suggestions and contributions are welcome.=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Regards,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Benson
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> __________________________________________= _____
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> hackathon mailing list
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> hackathon@ietf.org <mailto:hackath= on@ietf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-requ= est@ietf.org
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org>?subject=3Dunsubscribe
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hackathon mailing list
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hackathon@ietf.org <mailto:hackathon@iet= f.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@i= etf.org
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org>?subject=3Dunsubscribe
>>

_______________________________________________
hackathon mailing list
= hackathon@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hack= athon
Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubs= cribe
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Cc: Eliot Lear , Eric Rescorla , hackathon References: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> <4019dda0-8c61-4a49-48e4-195cd03aec7f@emailplus.org> From: Benson Muite Message-ID: <7a3d5208-166f-c851-82d3-d885d89c569e@emailplus.org> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 16:19:12 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:19:28 -0000 Hi Noah, Thanks for your interest. Feel free to add yourself as a champion if you wish to bring others on board: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon Can then discuss further off list. Note that the EU also has a One Stop Shop which targets payment facilitators to collect VAT: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/vat-e-commerce/oss_en Regards, Benson On 9/26/21 3:58 PM, Noah . wrote: > Hi Benson > > If this will get a green light as a hackathon, I would love to > participate and perhaps bring others on board as I foresee the > usefulness of such a project considering how many African governments > are currently coming with random taxes for all sorts of online use cases. > > Noah > > On Sun, 26 Sep 2021, 13:04 Benson Muite, > wrote: > > Dear Eliot and Eric, > > Thanks for your feedback. Just announcing on this list as suggested in > the Hackathon wiki. Clearly, not everyone on this list will participate > in every project, but feedback is still appreciated. > > One particular use case is taxation of cloud services: > > https://itatonline.org/articles_new/a-closer-look-at-taxation-of-cloud-services-internationally/ > > > Some companies which provide services through the cloud and will be > affected by such taxes and do have employees who participate in IETF. > They may want to have some say in how they could easily facilitate > payment of such taxes in many territories without unnecessary > administrative burden. > > KPMG has a set of articles on e-taxes: > https://home.kpmg/us/en/home/insights/2019/06/tnf-digital-economy0.html > > > A recent example is from Cambodia: > https://home.kpmg/us/en/home/insights/2021/09/tnf-cambodia-vat-ecommerce.html > > > Within the EU, Peppol ( https://github.com/OpenPEPPOL/ > ) is one effort > to harmonize electronic invoicing, whether this will be adopted > internationally remains to be seen. The scope is much broader than > proposed here. > > As you indicate, a hackathon should have a clear achievable target. As > indicated in a previous reply for VAT/Sales tax, one needs: > i) Relevant tax collection bodies > ii) Identification numbers for the parties involved > iii) Type of good or service and the relevant taxes to be paid, eg. > sales tax, income tax > iv) Some database lookup on the amount of tax to be paid. > > The main problems to solve are: > double registration - registering in one jurisdiction should enable you > to sell in others and comply with regulations the relevant > jurisdictions > for many products and services > paperwork reduction - authorized electronic payments and electronic > identity confirmation can really help here, for example a certain > jurisdiction has a paperwork reduction act, the main effect of which is > to indicate how many hours are needed to fill a form, rather than > milliseconds of allowed time to respond to an electronic request. > > Benson > > On 9/26/21 11:43 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > > EKR, > > > > The issue here is more about likelihood of actually accomplishing > > anything.  Do YOU have a codebase that worries about taxes? Do > you plan > > to add this sort of code into your base?  I don't and I don't know > > anyone who does.  Do you know of any code base to add this stuff > to?  I > > don't and I don't know anyone who does. > > > > If people who DO have such code bases ARE going to show, then the > next > > question is whether anyone who participates in the IETF can > reasonably > > help them.  This isn't a matter of protocol design.  If not, what > does > > the IETF hackathon bring to the table other than... a table (and > right > > now we can't even bring that)? > > > > But, Benson, EKR's right:  I can't stand in the way of you doing the > > work here.  I just think it'll be a waste of your time, and possibly > > drive you in the wrong direction. > > > > Eliot > > > > On 25.09.21 18:23, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> > >> On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 2:19 AM Eliot Lear > >> >> wrote: > >> > >>     Hi, > >> > >>     In general I like a low bar for hackathons, but I am not > sure that > >>     the > >>     IETF should take this one on.  For one, it's not clear to me > that > >>     this > >>     isn't more a matter of data models rather than APIs. We also > have no > >>     experience with handling of this sort of information: this > is WAY > >>     up the > >>     stack. > >> > >> > >> Without taking a position on this proposal, since when do we > monitor > >> what people work on at the hackathon? It's a lot more like a > >> free-for-all than a BOF and having people work on something at a > >> hackathon certainly isn't any kind of commitment to take the > work on > >> at the IETF. > >> > >>     But if you're going to do this, we need to understand what > code is > >>     going > >>     to be hacked.  Are the developers from accounting packages > going to > >>     participate?  Can you lay out a bit more of a landscape here? > >> > >> > >> These seem like reasonable questions, but I don't agree with the > >> framing that we "need" to understand them. If you don't want to > >> participate without an answer, don't do so, but that shouldn't stop > >> others from doing it. > >> > >> -Ekr > >> > >> > >>     Eliot > >> > >> > >>     On 25.09.21 11:04, Benson Muite wrote: > >>     > Hi, > >>     > > >>     > Have proposed a hackathon topic on One Tax API: > >>     > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon > > >>      > > >>     > Many countries are proposing taxes on e-commerce and also > labor > >>     > services that are supplied from outside their > jurisdictions that > >>     have > >>     > been enabled by improvements in internet connectivity. > Complying > >>     with > >>     > these requirements can be time consuming and is a trade > barrier for > >>     > trade in items and services that do not require regulatory > >>     approval. > >>     > Having a standardized API for reporting and paying these > >>     > electronically would enable compliance at a low cost, > especially > >>     since > >>     > automation could be used.  Privacy and security > considerations are > >>     > also important in creating a standard for such an > interface. The > >>     aim > >>     > of this hackathon project is to develop a prototype > implementation > >>     > that could become an RFC and be adopted as a standard. > >>     > > >>     > Suggestions and contributions are welcome. > >>     > > >>     > Regards, > >>     > Benson > >>     > > >>     > _______________________________________________ > >>     > hackathon mailing list > >>     > hackathon@ietf.org > > > >>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > > >>      > > >>     > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org > > >>      >?subject=unsubscribe > >>     > > >> > >>     _______________________________________________ > >>     hackathon mailing list > >> hackathon@ietf.org > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > > >>      > > >>     Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org > > >>      >?subject=unsubscribe > >> > > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org > ?subject=unsubscribe > From nobody Sun Sep 26 07:35:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A3D3A269C for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 07:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fDw3YoyK0kVz for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 07:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gro.dd.org (host2.dlawren-3-gw.cust.sover.net [207.136.201.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F2D23A26A0 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 07:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gro.dd.org (Postfix, from userid 102) id 6D312B9F4B; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:35:25 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <24912.34093.421753.716204@gro.dd.org> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:35:25 -0400 From: Dave Lawrence To: hackathon In-Reply-To: <3FF2AF4D-D8DD-4E66-AC98-5AA7FE7391EB@isc.org> References: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> <3FF2AF4D-D8DD-4E66-AC98-5AA7FE7391EB@isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:35:40 -0000 Ond=F8ej Sur=FD writes: > Since when we cared about this=3F This is hackathon - an event where > people gather, socialize and hack together for fun, not a work > camp. I'm not much of a fan of AOLing, but hear, hear! I appreciate all of the work Charles and others put into making it happen, but when it comes down to it the individuals and teams working on any particular thing are not supervised. As long as the proponents are aware of what it might or might not mean in the context of IETF standardization, work on whatever you want. Welcome, fellow hackers, to our community. From nobody Sun Sep 26 07:46:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FF33A26FF for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 07:46:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=liquidtelecom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EbMd2OCeSj6g for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 07:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com [185.58.85.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B9543A26FD for ; 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auth=pass smtp.auth=C82A168 smtp.mailfrom=andrew.alston@liquidtelecom.com X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: liquidtelecom.com Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AS8PR03MB7622A2B01BA3D9C08E6CB243EEA69AS8PR03MB7622eurp_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:46:22 -0000 --_000_AS8PR03MB7622A2B01BA3D9C08E6CB243EEA69AS8PR03MB7622eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1250 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I agree that anyone should be free to work on anything =96 and I supp= ort that fully =96 I will also say that this type of thing scares me =96 ba= dly. Not because of the price of failure =96 if the hackathon in this rega= rd produces nothing that ever sees the light of day =96 no harm no foul. The price of success however =96 is where I get nervous. Where does it go = from here when we start working on topics like this that are incredibly sta= te specific =96 on areas where there is very little consensus between count= ries etc and we succeed? Do we next see a hackathon for developing API=92s= to facilitate inter-state shutdowns of social media? I would hope we woul= d have zero participants in such =96 but the simple point is =96 walking do= wn this road opens a door =96 and it=92s a door that I see fraught with rea= l dangers. Maybe that=92s just my paranoia speaking =96 but as I said =96 if people wa= nna work on something =96 let it be so =96 but I would hope that this isn= =92t lending legitimacy to the use of the hackathon to produce what could b= e some extremely dangerous things. Andrew From: hackathon on behalf of Dave Lawrence Date: Sunday, 26 September 2021 at 17:36 To: hackathon Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal Ond=F8ej Sur=FD writes: > Since when we cared about this? This is hackathon - an event where > people gather, socialize and hack together for fun, not a work > camp. I'm not much of a fan of AOLing, but hear, hear! I appreciate all of the work Charles and others put into making it happen, but when it comes down to it the individuals and teams working on any particular thing are not supervised. As long as the proponents are aware of what it might or might not mean in the context of IETF standardization, work on whatever you want. Welcome, fellow hackers, to our community. _______________________________________________ hackathon mailing list hackathon@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe --_000_AS8PR03MB7622A2B01BA3D9C08E6CB243EEA69AS8PR03MB7622eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1250 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

While I agree that anyone should be free to work on anything =96 and = I support that fully =96 I will also say that this type of thing scares me = =96 badly.  Not because of the price of failure =96 if the hackathon in this regard produces nothing that ever sees the li= ght of day =96 no harm no foul.

 

The price of success however =96 is where I get nervous.  Where = does it go from here when we start working on topics like this that are inc= redibly state specific =96 on areas where there is very little consensus between countries etc and we succeed?  Do we= next see a hackathon for developing API=92s to facilitate inter-state shut= downs of social media?  I would hope we would have zero participants i= n such =96 but the simple point is =96 walking down this road opens a door =96 and it=92s a door that I see fraught with real = dangers.

 

Maybe that=92s just my paranoia speaking =96 but as I said =96 if peo= ple wanna work on something =96 let it be so =96 but I would hope that this= isn=92t lending legitimacy to the use of the hackathon to produce what could be some extremely dangerous things.

 

Andrew

 

&nbs= p;

From: hackathon <hacka= thon-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dave Lawrence <tale@dd.org> Date: Sunday, 26 September 2021 at 17:36
To: hackathon <hackathon@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal

Ond=F8ej Sur=FD writes:
> Since when we cared about this? This is hackathon - an event where
> people gather, socialize and hack together for fun, not a work
> camp.

I'm not much of a fan of AOLing, but hear, hear! I appreciate all of
the work Charles and others put into making it happen, but when it
comes down to it the individuals and teams working on any particular
thing are not supervised.

As long as the proponents are aware of what it might or might not mean
in the context of IETF standardization, work on whatever you want.
Welcome, fellow hackers, to our community.

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hackathon mailing list
hackathon@ietf.org
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--_000_AS8PR03MB7622A2B01BA3D9C08E6CB243EEA69AS8PR03MB7622eurp_-- From nobody Sun Sep 26 08:00:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A153A2772 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:00:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KigITuwwO_pT for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [92.243.22.217]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 036753A2771 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd] (unknown [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D967BAE536; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:00:04 +0200 (CEST) To: Andrew Alston , Dave Lawrence , hackathon References: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> <3FF2AF4D-D8DD-4E66-AC98-5AA7FE7391EB@isc.org> <24912.34093.421753.716204@gro.dd.org> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: <00573533-daf2-772c-26d2-43c718fead5a@petit-huguenin.org> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:00:02 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 15:00:15 -0000 Maybe a light criteria for project suitability for an IETF Hackathon would be that it somehow fulfills that part of the IETF mission statement: "Making the Internet work better". On 9/26/21 7:46 AM, Andrew Alston wrote: > While I agree that anyone should be free to work on anything – and I support that fully – I will also say that this type of thing scares me – badly. Not because of the price of failure – if the hackathon in this regard produces nothing that ever sees the light of day – no harm no foul. > > The price of success however – is where I get nervous. Where does it go from here when we start working on topics like this that are incredibly state specific – on areas where there is very little consensus between countries etc and we succeed? Do we next see a hackathon for developing API’s to facilitate inter-state shutdowns of social media? I would hope we would have zero participants in such – but the simple point is – walking down this road opens a door – and it’s a door that I see fraught with real dangers. > > Maybe that’s just my paranoia speaking – but as I said – if people wanna work on something – let it be so – but I would hope that this isn’t lending legitimacy to the use of the hackathon to produce what could be some extremely dangerous things. > > Andrew > > > From: hackathon on behalf of Dave Lawrence > Date: Sunday, 26 September 2021 at 17:36 > To: hackathon > Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal > Ondřej Surý writes: >> Since when we cared about this? This is hackathon - an event where >> people gather, socialize and hack together for fun, not a work >> camp. > > I'm not much of a fan of AOLing, but hear, hear! I appreciate all of > the work Charles and others put into making it happen, but when it > comes down to it the individuals and teams working on any particular > thing are not supervised. > > As long as the proponents are aware of what it might or might not mean > in the context of IETF standardization, work on whatever you want. > Welcome, fellow hackers, to our community. > > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe > > > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe > -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Sun Sep 26 08:08:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2233A27C1 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:08:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z6a_OzXtCxEo for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f176.google.com (mail-yb1-f176.google.com [209.85.219.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B831F3A2785 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f176.google.com with SMTP id h2so17807292ybi.13 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:08:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ctAH5qVtcZo7iOS7WtD/GTSb2C17IixUPjJwBbeZi6g=; b=Z0ZsM12tq5AUoacdhSTD/WgIQqspMp0QOhwUzeraQl1Mji+2yBvHVYGIPtV5pOnl2e bGmDfvSoI/V1+VXlnaV88uZviHxhy3Zno0cwyEnYQOGEsGgq/2KrIH9RxFd+Ptv/snRm 1HRG5K4N3Gq1nQrRkwSVLeD3IkQWYzxIRoYnxoa07bggt6yBuABLAjDJwpFB9g/UZXUQ ykde9H030Z/4TzQ8B1mPkxuFhDlMXYOkKrhOmUZJmXxRPL5e1qGjbhVCiocol+66S1A6 2yB8805CPBCVZU3redHc3T4Ak3292CMLkb0pj8OMSEaGxnjGmG+PYh4Dp9fFsMjjzGho mUcA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530PDf5pr5bWS42xzkHKVNEDXuJkMBsYNtJqPnk37PMSssNJQM9W gx8qXIBre0pHzTE4XyUYsmROwJgi74Xw+Pcbct83gsRi X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw9Wt91f27ABe2Us7B5UNGFE0QVWZUBxw0/IQnu74pNOY3PNSoRK6rLG5E5DBpnQiROvhAVprGDAJk+bhmtaVs= X-Received: by 2002:a25:4543:: with SMTP id s64mr23122996yba.346.1632668888908; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 08:08:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> <3FF2AF4D-D8DD-4E66-AC98-5AA7FE7391EB@isc.org> <24912.34093.421753.716204@gro.dd.org> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:07:58 -0400 Message-ID: To: Andrew Alston Cc: Dave Lawrence , hackathon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000028c76305cce7593e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 15:08:12 -0000 --00000000000028c76305cce7593e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I strongly suspect OASIS is a better forum for this type of work than IETF or W3C because that is where you are likely to find a consensus of the relevant expertise. BUT, you are likely to find that even that isn't quite enough and you need to go to the UN and WTO because fundamentally, the problem is to get governments to agree on how they are going to label taxable items and what forms of tariff they apply. And that is certainly not going to be a closed set. Different tariff rates apply according to where the goods are coming from, where they are going and what the goods are. In some cases there is a straight tariff, in others there is a value added tax. Tariffs may be percentages or they may be a fee per item, or both. A global system of embodied carbon tariffs are in discussion. There is also a significant faction that is going to resist any effort to make this work more easily. The complexity of tariffs is in many cases deliberate as they create non tariff barriers to imports competing with domestic product. I can't see how an automated API is going to work unless it has a direct connection to the organization chartered to manage global trade. --00000000000028c76305cce7593e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I s= trongly suspect OASIS is a better forum for this type of work than IETF or = W3C because that is where you are likely to find a consensus of the relevan= t expertise.
BUT, you are= likely to find that even that isn't quite enough and you need to go to= the UN and WTO because fundamentally, the problem is to get governments to= agree on how they are going to label taxable items and what forms of tarif= f=C2=A0they apply. And that is certainly not going to be a closed set.

Different tariff=C2=A0rates a= pply according to where the goods are coming from, where they are going and= what the goods are. In some cases there is a straight=C2=A0tariff, in othe= rs there is a value added tax. Tariffs=C2=A0may be percentages or they may = be a fee per item, or both. A global system of embodied carbon tariffs are = in discussion.
=
There is a= lso a significant faction that is going to resist any effort to make this w= ork more easily. The complexity of tariffs is in many cases deliberate as t= hey create non tariff barriers to imports competing with domestic product.<= /div>

I can't see how an au= tomated API is going to work unless it has a direct connection to the organ= ization chartered to manage global trade.
--00000000000028c76305cce7593e-- From nobody Sun Sep 26 10:46:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D703A2D64 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:45:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=emailplus.org header.b=WNunQinH; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Zzc5Vqe8 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uhx5DsMPZa8v for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07C3B3A2D62 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98583200A60; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:45:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:45:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emailplus.org; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=V RuoEN/DGnOVmVnm6DZhQZfL3CtQEsV8ZKr70fDUiN4=; b=WNunQinH6QMrFBSp6 UYmxmx+dqpLClSkNu5uRVKzrDSKHeBzSQAAxxv5UOUuP30XaWo62hJ+YUFNIb2K0 Aq0MM86fBKeyj69sXJbRrEFYNEAzWoDNPq1pAdZXwjLj01o1URizQ5Zzd2jbmDWP F1EpaL/P3BOHMpXDQImcg2I98yB2cCc2XW2jxvmZWehX48qAtq7aw5CciWH+o4x9 0r3vDuBVDcdJdAhFRD2KevJUgJPJj1CiQR1BFsZgu/Pgqrqrtbd7T+CEcRzP5568 Rj3wSfT0n8q5HEcpwV4dYpUH2043CYYnNl6Il8IIrb0MyI1IrkXOCQkE2jzQQBsh PLIFw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=VRuoEN/DGnOVmVnm6DZhQZfL3CtQEsV8ZKr70fDUi N4=; b=Zzc5Vqe8fn26zzWy4AbMre+k1SeHy/5PMdr/ow5KjcLL3pQ7fTJys32Ii 2A06QFUGWsRs/WcEqAJ8rBRNHaMxYGYCtptW3vGEIfCoVr1bJF8fQBbd0maFw627 A3hvGzHIZQ6okKC6y3a4II06PcL19JcUU9bIRYQqgilrrc9l52w37qJugHashMf6 rKJKuxWoKLgeK6gnvd8ECgxy5LIE3aU4ivxeBYjZqrEOpsqyc+PPMGIvYomuzsbs FM6aSN9rb2P+/3Px3KhdPNNBmXor5tVR+JzBzVYJB69FMTuq8LuLqOC+Dk4DcIAA Nx1DvzMW4rDSyNB1K43M9y6/zzAyQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejiedguddugecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeeuvghn shhonhcuofhuihhtvgcuoegsvghnshhonhgpmhhuihhtvgesvghmrghilhhplhhushdroh hrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfedvvefffefhudefudefueegieegiefggfetffel tedutdehgfegfffhfeelgeefnecuffhomhgrihhnpehorghsihhsqdhophgvnhdrohhrgh enucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegsvghn shhonhgpmhhuihhtvgesvghmrghilhhplhhushdrohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:45:48 -0400 (EDT) To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Cc: hackathon References: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> <3FF2AF4D-D8DD-4E66-AC98-5AA7FE7391EB@isc.org> <24912.34093.421753.716204@gro.dd.org> From: Benson Muite Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:45:41 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:46:00 -0000 Dear Phillip, Thanks for your feedback. OASIS ( https://www.oasis-open.org/ ) may be a good second step. Many countries at present are proposing flat taxes on digital goods, such as hosted email and cloud compute rental. What will the revenue collection agencies adopt to fulfill their missions in these cases? Will this be something that is developer friendly, efficient and secure? Can we make it easier by developing a prototype? From nobody Sun Sep 26 10:54:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB293A2DB5 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:54:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isc.org header.b=F0XJbjlZ; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isc.org header.b=Q32uyifq Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TIUF6i4aoXVn for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [149.20.64.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 548B13A2DB4 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 10:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbrang.isc.org (zimbrang.isc.org [149.20.1.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C71873AB025; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:54:45 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=isc.org; s=ostpay; t=1632678885; bh=HGG9qKpqOCEEAX/tRCFOE7GeujDBERM62GOsnXiXUbw=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To; b=F0XJbjlZIIxBnkU3y9a1EDagyGGMPMYsB4HgGApI8BsJ4K1bHX86cLq78GnqjEPu9 3wiiJAWTUALQA1Vcknep99vyZ80b8t7Mv6Wp5GQ8U1O7VSCXqYpBrhErg40QrWTH2D Z0b8NKa8IawRgyp2ipU/PaLdQv6AWYL5q2zks7p8= Received: from zimbrang.isc.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zimbrang.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B77CFAA8C8C; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:54:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zimbrang.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D185AA8C8E; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:54:45 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 zimbrang.isc.org 8D185AA8C8E DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=05DFB016-56A2-11EB-AEC0-15368D323330; t=1632678885; bh=fn5ykX6PeTXFT6KVjekFLzId/XEu1FDNSOSh8gvRjmA=; h=From:Mime-Version:Date:Message-Id:To; b=Q32uyifqk94wUC0VV49VL0FhQ4JYAWdQpLN6QYT9AQ7EU+GLGM7uQiR9yp90LzS68 k0PslOylEURlDHE1dnQyebTGON2laF+ydqpTFSkAeVyJSEENYnYw2tc45fAHgVTNrK E5HIUAm/qOTPl2l5TV10D+uBx0gBGgTcBcf9tkOw= Received: from zimbrang.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbrang.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id huHdlcxUkUfr; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:54:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [78.80.211.217]) by zimbrang.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3C253AA8C8C; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:54:45 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: =?utf-8?Q?Ond=C5=99ej_Sur=C3=BD?= Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 19:54:42 +0200 Message-Id: <74DE946C-F121-4FCF-854D-FA216FB0858E@isc.org> References: <00573533-daf2-772c-26d2-43c718fead5a@petit-huguenin.org> Cc: Andrew Alston , Dave Lawrence , hackathon In-Reply-To: <00573533-daf2-772c-26d2-43c718fead5a@petit-huguenin.org> To: Marc Petit-Huguenin X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19A346) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:54:53 -0000 Again=E2=80=A6 since when do we police the hackathon topics? The only eligib= ility was and is to find people who actually want to do the work. We don=E2=80= =99t even **require** people to do any work at all, although it=E2=80=99s ki= nd of expected to participate if you come. Actually, most of the hackathon topics are not even announced on this list, s= o let=E2=80=99s stop punishing people coming with ideas that might be outsid= e our comfort zone. Because honestly as DNS person I only marginally care or= even understand 90% of the work done by the other hackathon groups. Ond=C5=99ej -- Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him) My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel= obligated to reply outside your normal working hours. > On 26. 9. 2021, at 17:00, Marc Petit-Huguenin wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFMaybe a light criteria for project suitability for an IETF Hackat= hon would be that it somehow fulfills that part of the IETF mission statemen= t: "Making the Internet work better". >=20 >> On 9/26/21 7:46 AM, Andrew Alston wrote: >> While I agree that anyone should be free to work on anything =E2=80=93 an= d I support that fully =E2=80=93 I will also say that this type of thing sca= res me =E2=80=93 badly. Not because of the price of failure =E2=80=93 if th= e hackathon in this regard produces nothing that ever sees the light of day =E2= =80=93 no harm no foul. >> The price of success however =E2=80=93 is where I get nervous. Where doe= s it go from here when we start working on topics like this that are incredi= bly state specific =E2=80=93 on areas where there is very little consensus b= etween countries etc and we succeed? Do we next see a hackathon for develop= ing API=E2=80=99s to facilitate inter-state shutdowns of social media? I wo= uld hope we would have zero participants in such =E2=80=93 but the simple po= int is =E2=80=93 walking down this road opens a door =E2=80=93 and it=E2=80=99= s a door that I see fraught with real dangers. >> Maybe that=E2=80=99s just my paranoia speaking =E2=80=93 but as I said =E2= =80=93 if people wanna work on something =E2=80=93 let it be so =E2=80=93 bu= t I would hope that this isn=E2=80=99t lending legitimacy to the use of the h= ackathon to produce what could be some extremely dangerous things. >> Andrew >> From: hackathon on behalf of Dave Lawrence <= tale@dd.org> >> Date: Sunday, 26 September 2021 at 17:36 >> To: hackathon >> Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal >> Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD writes: >>> Since when we cared about this? This is hackathon - an event where >>> people gather, socialize and hack together for fun, not a work >>> camp. >> I'm not much of a fan of AOLing, but hear, hear! I appreciate all of >> the work Charles and others put into making it happen, but when it >> comes down to it the individuals and teams working on any particular >> thing are not supervised. >> As long as the proponents are aware of what it might or might not mean >> in the context of IETF standardization, work on whatever you want. >> Welcome, fellow hackers, to our community. >> _______________________________________________ >> hackathon mailing list >> hackathon@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon >> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe >> _______________________________________________ >> hackathon mailing list >> hackathon@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon >> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Marc Petit-Huguenin > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org > Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe From nobody Sun Sep 26 11:36:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE123A2F07 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:36:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vqERZA1lU7Tu for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A03663A2F05 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd] (unknown [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FB42AE536; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:36:05 +0200 (CEST) To: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= Cc: Andrew Alston , Dave Lawrence , hackathon References: <00573533-daf2-772c-26d2-43c718fead5a@petit-huguenin.org> <74DE946C-F121-4FCF-854D-FA216FB0858E@isc.org> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: <32ff9995-2701-522b-759a-085fd337ba49@petit-huguenin.org> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:36:03 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <74DE946C-F121-4FCF-854D-FA216FB0858E@isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 18:36:15 -0000 I was talking about a criteria that one could use to decide if that's the right venue or not for an Hackathon topic, not something that would be enforced. That's also a good way to choose to participate in someone else's project that does not meet that criteria, for the purpose of sabotaging it. That's another way to make the Internet work better. On 9/26/21 10:54 AM, Ondřej Surý wrote: > Again… since when do we police the hackathon topics? The only eligibility was and is to find people who actually want to do the work. We don’t even **require** people to do any work at all, although it’s kind of expected to participate if you come. > > Actually, most of the hackathon topics are not even announced on this list, so let’s stop punishing people coming with ideas that might be outside our comfort zone. Because honestly as DNS person I only marginally care or even understand 90% of the work done by the other hackathon groups. > > Ondřej > -- > Ondřej Surý — ISC (He/Him) > > My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours. > >> On 26. 9. 2021, at 17:00, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >> >> Maybe a light criteria for project suitability for an IETF Hackathon would be that it somehow fulfills that part of the IETF mission statement: "Making the Internet work better". >> >>> On 9/26/21 7:46 AM, Andrew Alston wrote: >>> While I agree that anyone should be free to work on anything – and I support that fully – I will also say that this type of thing scares me – badly. Not because of the price of failure – if the hackathon in this regard produces nothing that ever sees the light of day – no harm no foul. >>> The price of success however – is where I get nervous. Where does it go from here when we start working on topics like this that are incredibly state specific – on areas where there is very little consensus between countries etc and we succeed? Do we next see a hackathon for developing API’s to facilitate inter-state shutdowns of social media? I would hope we would have zero participants in such – but the simple point is – walking down this road opens a door – and it’s a door that I see fraught with real dangers. >>> Maybe that’s just my paranoia speaking – but as I said – if people wanna work on something – let it be so – but I would hope that this isn’t lending legitimacy to the use of the hackathon to produce what could be some extremely dangerous things. >>> Andrew >>> From: hackathon on behalf of Dave Lawrence >>> Date: Sunday, 26 September 2021 at 17:36 >>> To: hackathon >>> Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal >>> Ondřej Surý writes: >>>> Since when we cared about this? This is hackathon - an event where >>>> people gather, socialize and hack together for fun, not a work >>>> camp. >>> I'm not much of a fan of AOLing, but hear, hear! I appreciate all of >>> the work Charles and others put into making it happen, but when it >>> comes down to it the individuals and teams working on any particular >>> thing are not supervised. >>> As long as the proponents are aware of what it might or might not mean >>> in the context of IETF standardization, work on whatever you want. >>> Welcome, fellow hackers, to our community. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hackathon mailing list >>> hackathon@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon >>> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hackathon mailing list >>> hackathon@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon >>> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe >> >> >> -- >> Marc Petit-Huguenin >> Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org >> Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org >> Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hackathon mailing list >> hackathon@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon >> Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Sun Sep 26 11:36:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC893A2F19 for ; 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Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-09v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.105]) by resqmta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id UYJSmSVE9K3eXUZ0hmpCqZ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 18:36:23 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=20190202a; t=1632681383; bh=IHdUhKmYAbxXKg28HCQ8zAwf2wXbe8PwMQBZ/+WyDas=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=MDrNN7L2urFuJDPyYf6Xt0ET4NxYwu6JAFrMmMPFFkw7yaT+4UJ2FBCWaZ56Um7rD /p72H0SONnlS2UwhbKZya4hPDp9Q0PFa3KrdrjrOhB9rMb1na2/T+byZFOXlEQY1LI JUw1GXjS8Fvq37lrideC7IzcRaYXwnAyRWORpfyguWja7ZVce0/3KBNBGcp3hEQiS+ 8QIY8PnfUniP+eyBwORObUrI0r+j8V/XBBQGAbwDvOdFO+jgR9zRQof8yeKx3XDAsV 4eCdvSG4lwENg9b3YCBCmpnAEpRS6EbcvzhpLyTAIZ+HzwHY7u+OimZp0nwtcUm6is imhzaPwR6zs5Q== Received: from oxapp-asc-70o.email.comcast.net ([96.118.210.185]) by resomta-ch2-09v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPS id UZ0fmT0f0SAWzUZ0fm5jV0; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 18:36:23 +0000 X-Xfinity-VAAS: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejiedguddvhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucevohhmtggrshhtqdftvghsihdpqfgfvfdppffquffrtefokffrnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddunecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvkfgjfhfugggtgffrkgfoiheshhhqsgdtredtjeenucfhrhhomhepufhorhhinhcuhfgrihgsihhshhcuoehsfhgrihgsihhshhestghomhgtrghsthdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkedtffekudetleehfeelueetffdukeekveffieetleelffeiffeugedtteehffeinecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpphgvthhithdqhhhughhuvghnihhnrdhorhhgpdhlihhnkhgvughinhdrtghomhenucfkphepleeirdduudekrddvuddtrddukeehpddviedttdemfeekjeemheemkedtfeemmegrsgenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhephhgvlhhopehogigrphhpqdgrshgtqdejtdhordgvmhgrihhlrdgtohhmtggrshhtrdhnvghtpdhinhgvthepleeirdduudekrddvuddtrddukeehpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhfrghisghishhhsegtohhmtggrshhtrdhnvghtpdhrtghpthhtohepohhnughrvghjsehishgtrdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepmhgrrhgtsehpvghtihhtqdhhuhhguhgvnhhinhdrohhrghdprhgtphhtthhopehhrggtkhgrthhhohhnsehivg htfhdrohhrghdprhgtphhtthhopegrnhgurhgvfidrrghlshhtohhnpeegtdhlihhquhhiughtvghlvggtohhmrdgtohhmsegumhgrrhgtrdhivghtfhdrohhrghdprhgtphhtthhopehtrghlvgesuggurdhorhhg X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=-100.00;st=legit Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:36:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Sorin Faibish To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ond=C5=99ej_Sur=C3=BD?= , Marc Petit-Huguenin Cc: hackathon , Andrew Alston , Dave Lawrence Message-ID: <1405997362.42827.1632681381150@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <74DE946C-F121-4FCF-854D-FA216FB0858E@isc.org> References: <00573533-daf2-772c-26d2-43c718fead5a@petit-huguenin.org> <74DE946C-F121-4FCF-854D-FA216FB0858E@isc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev18 X-Originating-IP: 2600:387:5:803::ab X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 18:36:40 -0000 =20 =20
My issue I have is not with the hackathon but with the legitimation of a= new IETF protocol as a result of the hackathon.
=20
=20
On 09/26/2021 1:54 PM Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD < ondrej@isc.org> wrote:
=20
 
=20
 
=20
Again=E2=80=A6 since when do we police the hackathon topics? The only e= ligibility was and is to find people who actually want to do the work. We d= on=E2=80=99t even **require** people to do any work at all, although it=E2= =80=99s kind of expected to participate if you come.
=20
 
=20
Actually, most of the hackathon topics are not even announced on this l= ist, so let=E2=80=99s stop punishing people coming with ideas that might be= outside our comfort zone. Because honestly as DNS person I only marginally= care or even understand 90% of the work done by the other hackathon groups= .
=20
 
=20
Ond=C5=99ej
=20
--
=20
Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him)
=20
 
=20
My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not= feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.
=20
 
=20
=20
On 26. 9. 2021, at 17:00, Marc Petit-Huguenin < marc@petit-huguenin.org= > wrote:
=20
 
=20
Maybe a light criteria for project suitability for an IETF Hackathon w= ould be that it somehow fulfills that part of the IETF mission statement: "= Making the Internet work better".
=20
 
=20
=20
On 9/26/21 7:46 AM, Andrew Alston wrote:
=20
While I agree that anyone should be free to work on anything =E2=80= =93 and I support that fully =E2=80=93 I will also say that this type of th= ing scares me =E2=80=93 badly. Not because of the price of failure =E2=80= =93 if the hackathon in this regard produces nothing that ever sees the lig= ht of day =E2=80=93 no harm no foul.
=20
The price of success however =E2=80=93 is where I get nervous. Where = does it go from here when we start working on topics like this that are inc= redibly state specific =E2=80=93 on areas where there is very little consen= sus between countries etc and we succeed? Do we next see a hackathon for de= veloping API=E2=80=99s to facilitate inter-state shutdowns of social media?= I would hope we would have zero participants in such =E2=80=93 but the sim= ple point is =E2=80=93 walking down this road opens a door =E2=80=93 and it= =E2=80=99s a door that I see fraught with real dangers.
=20
Maybe that=E2=80=99s just my paranoia speaking =E2=80=93 but as I sai= d =E2=80=93 if people wanna work on something =E2=80=93 let it be so =E2=80= =93 but I would hope that this isn=E2=80=99t lending legitimacy to the use = of the hackathon to produce what could be some extremely dangerous things.
=20
Andrew
=20
From: hackathon < hackathon-bounces@ietf.= org> on behalf of Dave Lawrence < tale@dd.org>
=20
Date: Sunday, 26 September 2021 at 17:36
=20
To: hackathon < hackathon@ietf.org>
=20
Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal
=20
Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD writes:
=20
=20
Since when we cared about this? This is hackathon - an event where
=20
people gather, socialize and hack together for fun, not a work
=20
camp.
=20
=20
I'm not much of a fan of AOLing, but hear, hear! I appreciate all of
=20
the work Charles and others put into making it happen, but when it
=20
comes down to it the individuals and teams working on any particular
=20
thing are not supervised.
=20
As long as the proponents are aware of what it might or might not mea= n
=20
in the context of IETF standardization, work on whatever you want.
=20
Welcome, fellow hackers, to our community.
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
hackathon mailing list
=20 =20 =20 =20
_______________________________________________
=20
hackathon mailing list
=20 =20 =20 =20
=20
 
=20
 
=20
--
=20
Marc Petit-Huguenin
=20 =20 =20 =20
 
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
hackathon mailing list
=20 =20 =20 =20
=20
 
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
hackathon mailing list
=20 =20 =20
Unsubscribe: mailto: hackathon-request@ietf.or= g?subject=3Dunsubscribe
=20
=20 From nobody Sun Sep 26 11:43:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B043A2F3A for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:42:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kA-Za1-CPTQH for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com (mail-ed1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BA4C3A2F37 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id g8so59529173edt.7 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:42:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=l4MRfk5LvKTamqFtdVZyLtyxi80CWjPbQpSIH2FWDbw=; b=oQPxdRvCeAr9WG63GOWEbIn5N0g9LAveyhkkpVCAxhQMIWjfJu5HOkMCFMo/k/hXVx K7zq1CvMKgK6i+ynLrmYK7PJb2AZqzTib/KEwgMnOqHRkGpnItUGRpnjNqkf24DV79v3 RXQwo+u/LdDbM+Cfmd6dlo8Jyioue5fj+nMvKYrX/H6JilKpCcq+8rM6zsWLMDitD3fy 2wDsbH+RgQNFmAWJq2NnQbGDPfQPbEqUP9/xFMLfC0CUS12nFqz0n+0gn+e+mtjuwdyS IaraG1rV0rIzZ3b82OGlX/F9j1yr4/GHFNQEPSdMScktQHWZvt9zrXYU5ruFN2TlHXV8 9DJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=l4MRfk5LvKTamqFtdVZyLtyxi80CWjPbQpSIH2FWDbw=; b=3FsAjrtOQbKR9BLzzf3m4Stpwc7FuWRKj7T+bfSpHXI8+ehpBQySIXhT0kdeeS+SyC rJaXGUo+P2dGQpv4uPIMFpWU9Om+xEm7XmiWf5tuhDxOBfvOUSVk39XzbxFRSDg2r/LJ NOt0/vWh6ZnwENqCspiCdjRGk5Dr/ohH8JocZcu1dUAD5oxUQFE1doZqYAzb99kxxQi3 3WyqxNBbAmOv0J73+tAtqNU761sbiU+869pjJzdyOR6OPZ7kpCesYTUbevp/MOp8pBfp M4HT04bnxMDrrqVyxpXtegSBSud5++CQhzceDcLBWLXrXDKzElDQ9ybCqnmZ6UyGeQ6y etfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531fjFUVEVoDvOkmcQwHMN8NFKyLjXbbbOWPB+Os5fo1dyYUsNUQ njlLAEEjeiiMDXTx6F8jnZF70hVzXNql7IpaU1XYAAzYkSE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxhS/xaSvV6n0YaYSLeeICSPxI3M/20lwAHplQuAEagz2LbsCCBWWsn9k7w9z01KfAmdVDCMsWqJsv/BvWfcMg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3685:: with SMTP id a5mr23639186ejc.144.1632681771529; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:42:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00573533-daf2-772c-26d2-43c718fead5a@petit-huguenin.org> <74DE946C-F121-4FCF-854D-FA216FB0858E@isc.org> <1405997362.42827.1632681381150@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: <1405997362.42827.1632681381150@connect.xfinity.com> From: Botir 4life Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:42:39 +0200 Message-ID: To: Sorin Faibish Cc: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= , Marc Petit-Huguenin , Dave Lawrence , Andrew Alston , hackathon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000005f96705ccea596e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 18:42:59 -0000 --00000000000005f96705ccea596e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Can you please delete me from here Thanks in advance =D0=B2=D1=81, 26 =D1=81=D0=B5=D0=BD=D1=82. 2021 =D0=B3., 20:36 Sorin Faibis= h : > My issue I have is not with the hackathon but with the legitimation of a > new IETF protocol as a result of the hackathon. > > On 09/26/2021 1:54 PM Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD < ondrej@isc.org> wrote: > > > Again=E2=80=A6 since when do we police the hackathon topics? The only eli= gibility > was and is to find people who actually want to do the work. We don=E2=80= =99t even > **require** people to do any work at all, although it=E2=80=99s kind of e= xpected to > participate if you come. > > Actually, most of the hackathon topics are not even announced on this > list, so let=E2=80=99s stop punishing people coming with ideas that might= be > outside our comfort zone. Because honestly as DNS person I only marginall= y > care or even understand 90% of the work done by the other hackathon group= s. > > Ond=C5=99ej > -- > Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him) > > My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not > feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours. > > > On 26. 9. 2021, at 17:00, Marc Petit-Huguenin < marc@petit-huguenin.org> > wrote: > > Maybe a light criteria for project suitability for an IETF Hackathon woul= d > be that it somehow fulfills that part of the IETF mission statement: > "Making the Internet work better". > > > On 9/26/21 7:46 AM, Andrew Alston wrote: > While I agree that anyone should be free to work on anything =E2=80=93 an= d I > support that fully =E2=80=93 I will also say that this type of thing scar= es me =E2=80=93 > badly. Not because of the price of failure =E2=80=93 if the hackathon in = this > regard produces nothing that ever sees the light of day =E2=80=93 no harm= no foul. > The price of success however =E2=80=93 is where I get nervous. Where does= it go > from here when we start working on topics like this that are incredibly > state specific =E2=80=93 on areas where there is very little consensus be= tween > countries etc and we succeed? Do we next see a hackathon for developing > API=E2=80=99s to facilitate inter-state shutdowns of social media? I woul= d hope we > would have zero participants in such =E2=80=93 but the simple point is = =E2=80=93 walking > down this road opens a door =E2=80=93 and it=E2=80=99s a door that I see = fraught with real > dangers. > Maybe that=E2=80=99s just my paranoia speaking =E2=80=93 but as I said = =E2=80=93 if people wanna > work on something =E2=80=93 let it be so =E2=80=93 but I would hope that = this isn=E2=80=99t lending > legitimacy to the use of the hackathon to produce what could be some > extremely dangerous things. > Andrew > From: hackathon < hackathon-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dave Lawrence > < tale@dd.org> > Date: Sunday, 26 September 2021 at 17:36 > To: hackathon < hackathon@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal > Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD writes: > > Since when we cared about this? This is hackathon - an event where > people gather, socialize and hack together for fun, not a work > camp. > > I'm not much of a fan of AOLing, but hear, hear! I appreciate all of > the work Charles and others put into making it happen, but when it > comes down to it the individuals and teams working on any particular > thing are not supervised. > As long as the proponents are aware of what it might or might not mean > in the context of IETF standardization, work on whatever you want. > Welcome, fellow hackers, to our community. > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon< > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon> > Unsubscribe: mailto: hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > Unsubscribe: mailto: hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe > > > > -- > Marc Petit-Huguenin > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org > Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug > > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > Unsubscribe: mailto: hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe > > > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > Unsubscribe: mailto: hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe > > _______________________________________________ > hackathon mailing list > hackathon@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon > Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe > --00000000000005f96705ccea596e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,
Can you please delete me from he= re
Thanks in advance

=D0=B2=D1=81, 26 =D1=81=D0= =B5=D0=BD=D1=82. 2021 =D0=B3., 20:36 Sorin Faibish <sfaibish@comcast.net>:
=20 =20 =20
My issue I have is not with the hackathon but with the legitimation of a= new IETF protocol as a result of the hackathon.
=20
=20
On 09/26/2021 1:54 PM Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD < = ondrej@isc.org> wrote:
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Again=E2=80=A6 since when do we police the hackathon topics? The only e= ligibility was and is to find people who actually want to do the work. We d= on=E2=80=99t even **require** people to do any work at all, although it=E2= =80=99s kind of expected to participate if you come.
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Actually, most of the hackathon topics are not even announced on this l= ist, so let=E2=80=99s stop punishing people coming with ideas that might be= outside our comfort zone. Because honestly as DNS person I only marginally= care or even understand 90% of the work done by the other hackathon groups= .
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Ond=C5=99ej
=20
--
=20
Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him)
=20
=C2=A0
=20
My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not= feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=20
On 26. 9. 2021, at 17:00, Marc Petit-Huguenin < marc@petit-huguenin.org> wrote:
=20
=C2=A0
=20
Maybe a light criteria for project suitability for an IETF Hackathon w= ould be that it somehow fulfills that part of the IETF mission statement: &= quot;Making the Internet work better".
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=20
On 9/26/21 7:46 AM, Andrew Alston wrote:
=20
While I agree that anyone should be free to work on anything =E2=80= =93 and I support that fully =E2=80=93 I will also say that this type of th= ing scares me =E2=80=93 badly. Not because of the price of failure =E2=80= =93 if the hackathon in this regard produces nothing that ever sees the lig= ht of day =E2=80=93 no harm no foul.
=20
The price of success however =E2=80=93 is where I get nervous. Where = does it go from here when we start working on topics like this that are inc= redibly state specific =E2=80=93 on areas where there is very little consen= sus between countries etc and we succeed? Do we next see a hackathon for de= veloping API=E2=80=99s to facilitate inter-state shutdowns of social media?= I would hope we would have zero participants in such =E2=80=93 but the sim= ple point is =E2=80=93 walking down this road opens a door =E2=80=93 and it= =E2=80=99s a door that I see fraught with real dangers.
=20
Maybe that=E2=80=99s just my paranoia speaking =E2=80=93 but as I sai= d =E2=80=93 if people wanna work on something =E2=80=93 let it be so =E2=80= =93 but I would hope that this isn=E2=80=99t lending legitimacy to the use = of the hackathon to produce what could be some extremely dangerous things.
=20
Andrew
=20
From: hackathon < hackathon-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dave Lawren= ce < t= ale@dd.org>
=20
Date: Sunday, 26 September 2021 at 17:36
=20
To: hackathon < hackathon@ietf.org>
=20
Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal
=20
Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD writes:
=20
=20
Since when we cared about this? This is hackathon - an event where
=20
people gather, socialize and hack together for fun, not a work
=20
camp.
=20
=20
I'm not much of a fan of AOLing, but hear, hear! I appreciate all= of
=20
the work Charles and others put into making it happen, but when it
=20
comes down to it the individuals and teams working on any particular
=20
thing are not supervised.
=20
As long as the proponents are aware of what it might or might not mea= n
=20
in the context of IETF standardization, work on whatever you want.
=20
Welcome, fellow hackers, to our community.
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
hackathon mailing list
=20 =20 =20
Unsubscribe: mailto: hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
hackathon mailing list
=20 =20 =20
Unsubscribe: mailto: hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe
=20
=20
=C2=A0
=20
=C2=A0
=20
--
=20
Marc Petit-Huguenin
=20 =20 =20 =20
=C2=A0
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
hackathon mailing list
=20 =20 =20
Unsubscribe: mailto: hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe
=20
=20
=C2=A0
=20
_______________________________________________
=20
hackathon mailing list
=20 =20 =20
Unsubscribe: mailto: hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe
=20
=20
_______________________________________________
hackathon mailing list
= hackathon@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hack= athon
Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubs= cribe
--00000000000005f96705ccea596e-- From nobody Sun Sep 26 12:20:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A9E3A307A for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:20:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.622 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.622 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.377, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sudomail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g39PZUGV8j9y for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.service.anonyome.com (mx2.sudomail.com [54.215.232.175]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21F343A3078 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:20:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sudomail.com; s=mail; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject:Message-ID:Cc:To: From:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=AssjUuYtz+21cbeXZfiYYeEIgSQ9DCnBNT7YpSqxMnI=; b=YCoR7xG9u+V+1NRb/uDwliV3RT FRtBG/I769A8saxNk6xDhKv8P4T3J8cpBwpPBsmqj2lcirw/toF2v/QvZ3BjFwwJSRItsNvYX139t FipiZX7TjzXgOM6Df38SlXKBRpITBuoL5SPDkgkqGNaTH82e5N8SImvM3/EL7a1oztQbMLx6CsACd HEeYZXF7WphFQUH8ZibJ9Txauuh642KH9PfHmJSrslJopFJshAzeC0Zwxk2Q2O8TuZDTgiXUDK7sM 9ey3n0n8inSPAHDonxSlY38y19GZfcLPs3U+1O7cKjmxEsK0oeMJqtb4+PyEE7/Q/32ICCaO0SHYQ 5PU1JU8A==; Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:20:29 -0600 (MDT) From: "patrickreneguerrero@sudomail.com" To: Team Sudo Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Ond=C5=99ej_Sur=C3=BD?= , Marc Petit-Huguenin , hackathon Message-ID: <588047752.3285.1632684030154.patrickreneguerrero@sudomail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_0_110843251.1632684029225" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 19:20:41 -0000 ------=_Part_0_110843251.1632684029225 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_Part_1_236887088.1632684029225" ------=_Part_1_236887088.1632684029225 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, 
I just want to put some clarification out there , and = a brief summary of all that has occured. I've never really found a purpose = in life, until i came across the [hackathon] . Although i feel i found some= thing im sincerely passionate about, it's also costed me EVERYTHING IN MY L= IFE. The reason being is either i'm interested in subjectives that my fello= w "family/friends" have any interest whatsoever in. Apparantly, the only th= ing they all have in common is greed, envy, and unworthy. I had a lot of ti= me to myself to think deeply and discover whom I want to be as a Person and= what goals I would like to achieve. I started a company called JCS Enterpr= ises LLC a global resource and charity clause. Well being hated by many , a= nd abused by all...... I was Manipulated by people whom I once had a Deep r= egard for. They took it upon themselves to Create a Hostile Manifesto , wit= h the help of Accessible Hardware Infrastracture IT's through Public Commun= ications. ACME communications representatives to be specific.... They Manag= ed to BLACKLIST MY HOME WIFI-ROUTER , which allowed several entitiies to ma= ke License Alterations to Better benefit there Manifesto and leave me in th= e dust, Confused, Drained , And Disembagulated. Back to JCS Enterprises, Th= ese people illegaly blocked my email access, and Disorderly Used Fiscal Fun= ds for NON CHARITABLE EVENTS and took it upon themself to frame ME through = all this by Having multiple CIDR implementations, and accessing all my pers= onal information.... I Have been fighting this Manifesto off for nearly 2 y= ears and I Have gained so much Knowledge but yet have so much more to go...= I Never went to college for Coding or any cources obvisouosly. So its safe= to say I have "Zero Common Sense" However everyone has a Gift in life and = My gift happens to be Creating Positive Engagements to Reproduce Positive A= lters to Public Resources.... Im good at finding seams in softwares and tra= cing these BUGS.... I could really use some professional Cyber Techs help a= nd IT software Interfacing assistance.... on the bright side , slowly but s= urely the Truth and Honest past I chose to live with is starting to show by= gaining access to accounts, and proper User Identifications for HOStING an= d Intellectual Properties... 
JCS Enterprises LLC
= Patrick Rene Guerrero
CEO/FOUNDER
Email:pstackzz3c@gmai= l.com
Tel:+1(505)317-8801



From: flash54= 1hunter@gmail.com
Date: 9/26/21 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [hackathon] One= Tax API Hackathon proposal



Hi all,
Can you please delete me from here
Thanks = in advance

=D0=B2=D1=81, 26 =D1=81=D0=B5=D0=BD=D1=82. 2021 =D0=B3., 20= :36 Sorin Faibish <sfaibish@comc= ast.net>:
=20 =20 =20
My issue I have is not with the hackathon but with the legitimation of a= new IETF protocol as a result of the hackathon.
=20
=20
On 09/26/2021 1:54 PM Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD < = ondrej@isc.org> wrote:
=20
 
=20
 
=20
Again=E2=80=A6 since when do we police the hackathon topics? The only e= ligibility was and is to find people who actually want to do the work. We d= on=E2=80=99t even **require** people to do any work at all, although it=E2= =80=99s kind of expected to participate if you come.
=20
 
=20
Actually, most of the hackathon topics are not even announced on this l= ist, so let=E2=80=99s stop punishing people coming with ideas that might be= outside our comfort zone. Because honestly as DNS person I only marginally= care or even understand 90% of the work done by the other hackathon groups= .
=20
 
=20
Ond=C5=99ej
=20
--
=20
Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him)
=20
 
=20
My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not= feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.
=20
 
=20
=20
On 26. 9. 2021, at 17:00, Marc Petit-Huguenin < marc@petit-huguenin.org> wrote:
=20
 
=20
Maybe a light criteria for project suitability for an IETF Hackathon w= ould be that it somehow fulfills that part of the IETF mission statement: "= Making the Internet work better".
=20
 
=20
=20
On 9/26/21 7:46 AM, Andrew Alston wrote:
=20
While I agree that anyone should be free to work on anything =E2=80= =93 and I support that fully =E2=80=93 I will also say that this type of th= ing scares me =E2=80=93 badly. Not because of the price of failure =E2=80= =93 if the hackathon in this regard produces nothing that ever sees the lig= ht of day =E2=80=93 no harm no foul.
=20
The price of success however =E2=80=93 is where I get nervous. Where = does it go from here when we start working on topics like this that are inc= redibly state specific =E2=80=93 on areas where there is very little consen= sus between countries etc and we succeed? Do we next see a hackathon for de= veloping API=E2=80=99s to facilitate inter-state shutdowns of social media?= I would hope we would have zero participants in such =E2=80=93 but the sim= ple point is =E2=80=93 walking down this road opens a door =E2=80=93 and it= =E2=80=99s a door that I see fraught with real dangers.
=20
Maybe that=E2=80=99s just my paranoia speaking =E2=80=93 but as I sai= d =E2=80=93 if people wanna work on something =E2=80=93 let it be so =E2=80= =93 but I would hope that this isn=E2=80=99t lending legitimacy to the use = of the hackathon to produce what could be some extremely dangerous things.
=20
Andrew
=20
From: hackathon < hackathon-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dave Lawren= ce < t= ale@dd.org>
=20
Date: Sunday, 26 September 2021 at 17:36
=20
To: hackathon < hackathon@ietf.org>
=20
Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal
=20
Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD writes:
=20
=20
Since when we cared about this? This is hackathon - an event where
=20
people gather, socialize and hack together for fun, not a work
=20
camp.
=20
=20
I'm not much of a fan of AOLing, but hear, hear! I appreciate all of
=20
the work Charles and others put into making it happen, but when it
=20
comes down to it the individuals and teams working on any particular
=20
thing are not supervised.
=20
As long as the proponents are aware of what it might or might not mea= n
=20
in the context of IETF standardization, work on whatever you want.
=20
Welcome, fellow hackers, to our community.
=20
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=20
 
=20
--
=20
Marc Petit-Huguenin
=20 =20 =20 =20
 
=20
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------=_Part_1_236887088.1632684029225-- ------=_Part_0_110843251.1632684029225-- From nobody Sun Sep 26 12:58:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10463A045B for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:58:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b5F5xpjNhKk1 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48DA63A0414 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id g184so15726551pgc.6 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8b4khuRW5jiXWAOxUC+7qGm8uJJXsOpAn0Fc7xHqMjc=; b=nVcyKTw55oh/FbPG+VULfxtAOJq1qCCxd9TzodMvfyO+kkwepQzQRhdVavT102Thsz Fb7HoqnQp2v3JWVp9PgttiRQnVJRuAmWA4FnyA7qjI414scZobzHBXKcc+DS08QbEsaX 0tvIAX2aIvSlG6YauIN8h/12Jt5/4ZQDCdVmjnneqNhYggUIuhj891hqzG86lF05vbmo VShgv5VbKM0PdfmWerBq6ldPX0FIQwjreAETIAh1eLAP6V6TbjP4nT52I3dgvmJsZsjH flGTw4VfzsnuGjx4U2jEp/2SQPGp1OFHFKXAgL0dAs2BHPR9w4ts/qiZJNWkErUgWeO3 F2cQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8b4khuRW5jiXWAOxUC+7qGm8uJJXsOpAn0Fc7xHqMjc=; b=J43qQUBGBs7LQdOMgzUnyfHZ5K3Ve4p+NGOAn3t4nG3iXckitf4VQsRS33aqnjX1xT 4S7G9LO+P5yrLnSAqb/4sVgcqI2GRcxpqCX3EvcFcMEjLEiiQN19+5fpBwcT6XVIH3tN EpLeVOjjEptjFieaZFgLuLF1yXxLo17B1sfZi2gjn3tD/fsRUnbttYm3Rz7S/dCsYs2A Qwyk6g7mGKiYSspZQUc64h0QlHoJ1madnGAKo9WfUSTqkRT0ooKMd5LIWU6gJCFhm4yT RSwQ4Yyi7D70GJt5IAVMmda0JBnpvkVz4d1+XeH+jAKgbtdHSv4dd8XymH3k+kMWjMjS KhGA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532P/Q1Efx/L+fQVMr9+/x60ZoRu/sreIur4tR0JpgRYWtPq2XnI KLvaLRTY0+TqmYWMPYM1a6y5PQyOZwwJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx4kk60FFohP0brAbkrnXTteWzMb+HxpKLqYiMLC2zCcKN5Av8nUZJBTuK/k1S/5cEyAAokCA== X-Received: by 2002:a65:400c:: with SMTP id f12mr13510308pgp.296.1632686318458; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aspen-2.local (63-140-65-104.dynamic.lte.acsalaska.net. [63.140.65.104]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g12sm8296709pjd.18.2021.09.26.12.58.37 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Sep 2021 12:58:38 -0700 (PDT) To: hackathon@ietf.org References: <00573533-daf2-772c-26d2-43c718fead5a@petit-huguenin.org> <74DE946C-F121-4FCF-854D-FA216FB0858E@isc.org> <1405997362.42827.1632681381150@connect.xfinity.com> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:58:36 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1405997362.42827.1632681381150@connect.xfinity.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 19:58:45 -0000 On 9/26/21 10:36 AM, Sorin Faibish wrote: > My issue I have is not with the hackathon but with the legitimation of a > new IETF protocol as a result of the hackathon. I would guess that the likelihood of that happening approaches zero. I don't see how it would get through the chartering process, given the apparent lack of relevance to the IETF and the utter lack of domain expertise within the body of IETF participants. That said, I think it's the case that instituting a practice of policing hackathon topics beyond questions of legality (in which jurisdiction, though?) and violation of IETF policies around harassment and whatnot is probably more harmful than someone working on this stuff in the context of an IETF hackathon. Given that it's virtual, they aren't hoovering up valuable workspace in the hackathon venue, they are almost certainly not taking people away from working on things more relevant to the IETF, and so on. Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis From nobody Sun Sep 26 13:04:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hackathon@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807443A0846 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:04:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6hGTezhQTKpW for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f178.google.com (mail-yb1-f178.google.com [209.85.219.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2D903A0840 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f178.google.com with SMTP id f133so19015222yba.11 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:04:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/1/zDlWLMVt2Pm3x1YgEj3bbyWGJRsnhO+KAarewGEw=; b=zFozJU5aC9RG+fXGLXAqQG7/G3Q30JQIhcE0A3ZNe/qxtG25nC4dp6k53gCQVSCH+G 6RFkEfIalrit3XZbQ+TEjqb9ypbGkDzsFYZEBOIgxqenEqQGK7snG5UPWoWVA3j1d443 pv92niGZSu6sc9Uqjf9czTrnR4IeRoS1AySQxrULboW2A6wA4Q5683KbVVAcaq2tHhpp E5xpD9rGLGTgbEWLG9cXw3ZdlejGFNn9c9PnHJcMlReme1jQTcyioySOG3CzFz4Qztek 9/iF4blDamIfDdzBENTbgwzDhb0ixH7q4t1amMUUEZ8UzDSNOwpDjHlkvd/lmFxFK8qi wZ9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531MlomOpPYX8WLKpn4z6OvA0TJNWZ6UxhjzHvGxO4jUdctu4VBx mFBIs5PQCgXXEDT5L1o+w/mvaCN0exuZu4/cCN4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxPI+Br20ZzbXoIHmTzO41bQvNUfQKy6K75klbFoQMn4+YPx9KBYiZNzmoxxYC4mJxwmk5d/fDOoXGsGjD/v3g= X-Received: by 2002:a25:54c4:: with SMTP id i187mr25133013ybb.454.1632686674440; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:04:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> <3FF2AF4D-D8DD-4E66-AC98-5AA7FE7391EB@isc.org> <24912.34093.421753.716204@gro.dd.org> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 16:04:21 -0400 Message-ID: To: Benson Muite Cc: hackathon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004275de05cceb7d03" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:04:42 -0000 --0000000000004275de05cceb7d03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Well there is this. Congress Considers A Tax On Email (April Fool's Day Edition) (forbes.com) I suspect that at this point you will find that you run into the fact that just because a government would like to tax something, that does not mean collection of the tax is feasible. In general, the IETF has been hostile to taxes and charges for use. The US, or at least the part of the deep state that is interested, has also been very much opposed to anything that might constrain communication. A large number of governments have a monopoly tele communications provider that has historically provided significant revenues from various telephone charges. These fees have often been oppressive, $3/min for international calls. And of course much of those fees have been diverted into the pockets of corrupt government officials. Governments have been proposing ways to claw back those fees for the past 25 years and the US and other countries have made sure those proposals go precisely nowhere but the ITU provides a pretty good forum in which they can go nowhere. Sure, in the present Internet design, some functions like SMTP are sufficiently visible to be able to tax use. But those functions have increasingly been obscured by cryptography. On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 1:45 PM Benson Muite wrote: > Dear Phillip, > > Thanks for your feedback. OASIS ( https://www.oasis-open.org/ ) may be a > good second step. Many countries at present are proposing flat taxes on > digital goods, such as hosted email and cloud compute rental. What will > the revenue collection agencies adopt to fulfill their missions in these > cases? Will this be something that is developer friendly, efficient and > secure? Can we make it easier by developing a prototype? > --0000000000004275de05cceb7d03 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well there is this.

Congress Considers A Tax On Email (April Fool's Day Ed= ition) (forbes.com)

I suspect that at this point you will find that you run into the fact th= at just because a government would like to tax something, that does not mea= n collection of the tax is feasible.

In general, the IETF has been hostile to taxes and charges for = use. The US, or at least the part of the deep state that is=C2=A0interested= ,=C2=A0has also been very much opposed to anything that might constrain=C2= =A0communication.

A large= number of governments have a monopoly tele communications provider that ha= s historically provided significant revenues from various telephone charges= . These fees have often been oppressive, $3/min for international calls. An= d of course much of those fees have been diverted into the pockets of corru= pt government officials.

= Governments have been proposing ways to claw back those fees for the past 2= 5 years and the US and other countries have made sure those proposals go pr= ecisely nowhere but the ITU provides a pretty good forum in which they can = go nowhere.
Sure, in the = present Internet design, some functions like SMTP are sufficiently visible = to be able to tax use. But those functions have increasingly been obscured = by cryptography.




On= Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 1:45 PM Benson Muite <benson_muite@emailplus.org> wrote:
Dear Phillip,

Thanks for your feedback. OASIS ( https://www.oasis-open.org/ ) may b= e a
good second step. Many countries at present are proposing flat taxes on digital goods, such as hosted email and cloud compute rental. What will the revenue collection agencies adopt to fulfill their missions in these cases? Will this be something that is developer friendly, efficient and secure? Can we make it easier by developing a prototype?
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Mon, 27 Sep 2021 00:03:07 +0000 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Phillip Hallam-Baker CC: Benson Muite , "hackathon@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal Thread-Index: AQHXseyReMO5F9Ey/0KCCDmfsQPE06u0eMGAgAB2ooCAARHqAIAAD96AgABSeICAAAL8AIAABhwAgAAsEYCAACa+gIAAQrUA Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 00:03:07 +0000 Message-ID: <6F2C7AE4-3504-4498-AE85-3FE07EADEF8B@cisco.com> References: <808ed1a4-debd-1d54-2950-8114593ac32d@lear.ch> <3FF2AF4D-D8DD-4E66-AC98-5AA7FE7391EB@isc.org> <24912.34093.421753.716204@gro.dd.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) authentication-results: hallambaker.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;hallambaker.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f49fb8cf-0d05-4e13-3fab-08d9814a2f64 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR11MB2597: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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boundary="_000_6F2C7AE435044498AE853FE07EADEF8Bciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f49fb8cf-0d05-4e13-3fab-08d9814a2f64 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Sep 2021 00:03:07.0764 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Km/506UwB2HtOchlnk35RUWhBEiOypgfhut68oXnUCYq0u9+vRY9volvy+DLmOerjW6aBUUZSs5KHu8543kMpA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB2597 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.17, xbe-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hackathon] One Tax API Hackathon proposal X-BeenThere: hackathon@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion regarding past, present, and future IETF hackathons." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 00:03:17 -0000 --_000_6F2C7AE435044498AE853FE07EADEF8Bciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Benson for championing a project in the Hackathon and for announc= ing it on the list. Thanks as well to everyone who has constructively and r= espectfully provided their input on various aspects of the project. As others have said, it is intended that projects be related to IETF work a= nd standards. This is intentionally broad and meant to provide guidance and= set expectations for those considering leading or joining projects in the = Hackathon. Collaboration with people from other organizations (e.g., SDOs, = open source communities, etc.) is encouraged. Ideally and typically, Hackathon projects advance the state of past, curren= t, or future IETF work. If a project brings people together and helps deter= mine there is nothing to do at this time in the IETF, that is not necessari= ly a bad thing, especially if it results in an improved understanding of th= e space or helps determine a more appropriate direction for the project. Cheers, Charles On Sep 26, 2021, at 1:04 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker > wrote: Well there is this. Congress Considers A Tax On Email (April Fool's Day Edition) (forbes.com) I suspect that at this point you will find that you run into the fact that = just because a government would like to tax something, that does not mean c= ollection of the tax is feasible. In general, the IETF has been hostile to taxes and charges for use. The US,= or at least the part of the deep state that is interested, has also been v= ery much opposed to anything that might constrain communication. A large number of governments have a monopoly tele communications provider = that has historically provided significant revenues from various telephone = charges. These fees have often been oppressive, $3/min for international ca= lls. And of course much of those fees have been diverted into the pockets o= f corrupt government officials. Governments have been proposing ways to claw back those fees for the past 2= 5 years and the US and other countries have made sure those proposals go pr= ecisely nowhere but the ITU provides a pretty good forum in which they can = go nowhere. Sure, in the present Internet design, some functions like SMTP are sufficie= ntly visible to be able to tax use. But those functions have increasingly b= een obscured by cryptography. On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 1:45 PM Benson Muite > wrote: Dear Phillip, Thanks for your feedback. OASIS ( https://www.oasis-open.org/ ) may be a good second step. Many countries at present are proposing flat taxes on digital goods, such as hosted email and cloud compute rental. What will the revenue collection agencies adopt to fulfill their missions in these cases? Will this be something that is developer friendly, efficient and secure? Can we make it easier by developing a prototype? _______________________________________________ hackathon mailing list hackathon@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon Unsubscribe: mailto:hackathon-request@ietf.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe --_000_6F2C7AE435044498AE853FE07EADEF8Bciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <884843024BE0D54FB77F1CE306AE7052@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Benson for= championing a project in the Hackathon and for announcing it on the list. = Thanks as well to everyone who has constructively and respectfully provided= their input on various aspects of the project.

As others have said, = it is intended that projects be related to IETF work and standards. This is= intentionally broad and meant to provide guidance and set expectations for= those considering leading or joining projects in the Hackathon. Collaboration with people from other organizati= ons (e.g., SDOs, open source communities, etc.) is encouraged.

Ideally and typically= , Hackathon projects advance the state of past, current, or future IETF wor= k. If a project brings people together and helps determine there is nothing= to do at this time in the IETF, that is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if it results in an improved un= derstanding of the space or helps determine a more appropriate direction fo= r the project.

Cheers,
Charles

On Sep 26, 2021, at 1:04 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>= ; wrote:

Well there is this.<= /div>

Congr= ess Considers A Tax On Email (April Fool's Day Edition) (forbes.com)

I suspect that at th= is point you will find that you run into the fact that just because a gover= nment would like to tax something, that does not mean collection of the tax= is feasible.

In general, the IETF= has been hostile to taxes and charges for use. The US, or at least the par= t of the deep state that is interested, has also been very much o= pposed to anything that might constrain communication.

A large number of go= vernments have a monopoly tele communications provider that has historicall= y provided significant revenues from various telephone charges. These fees = have often been oppressive, $3/min for international calls. And of course much of those fees have been diverted i= nto the pockets of corrupt government officials.

Governments have bee= n proposing ways to claw back those fees for the past 25 years and the US a= nd other countries have made sure those proposals go precisely nowhere but = the ITU provides a pretty good forum in which they can go nowhere.

Sure, in the present= Internet design, some functions like SMTP are sufficiently visible to be a= ble to tax use. But those functions have increasingly been obscured by cryp= tography.




On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 1:45 PM Benso= n Muite <benson= _muite@emailplus.org> wrote:
Dear Phillip,

Thanks for your feedback. OASIS ( https://www.oasis-open.org/ ) may be a
good second step. Many countries at present are proposing flat taxes on digital goods, such as hosted email and cloud compute rental. What will the revenue collection agencies adopt to fulfill their missions in these cases? Will this be something that is developer friendly, efficient and secure? Can we make it easier by developing a prototype?
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