From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Tue Feb 2 10:26:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18D4C3A688B for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:26:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.698, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nnSIBCnKGj8o for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A78D3A65A6 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([10.52.116.31]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.70152502; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:26:43 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP02.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:26:30 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:26:29 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:26:30 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: Matthew Ford , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] BOF follow-up Thread-Index: AcqkNT0s9vUuCYBA4UGWaw/NS887JQ== In-Reply-To: <4B6178BC.4040501@isoc.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2010 18:26:30.0025 (UTC) FILETIME=[3D2FDF90:01CAA435] Subject: Re: [homegate] BOF follow-up X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:26:08 -0000 > Hi, > > I haven't seen any of the follow-up discussion Lars called for on this > list. Is there still energy to charter a WG in time for IETF77? > > Mat We are NOT planning a 2nd BoF at IETF 77. The guidance we have been given is as follows, and this will require some feedback from list subscribers: 1 - Charter looks fairly good, but may need some additional work. 2 - We probably do not need a second BoF. BUT, we do need to sort out some potential areas of concern or overlap with other SDOs. 3 - To work through any concerns with other SDOs, an interim meeting between IETF 77 and 78 is going to be planned. We hope to announce the logistics for this at IETF 77. You will see several emails from me to the list shortly on this subject. Thanks! Jason From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Tue Feb 2 10:28:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC55E3A67AB for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:28:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.232 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.232 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.233, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id inDmdMtn0q7e for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85AC53A65A6 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.70153173; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:29:05 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:29:06 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:29:05 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:29:08 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: "homegate@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed Thread-Index: AcqkNZtY6BrLj9H5lUOKFb2/8Fa0Gw== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3347962149_3886570" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2010 18:29:06.0181 (UTC) FILETIME=[9A436350:01CAA435] Subject: [homegate] Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:28:32 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3347962149_3886570 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable We have received virtually no feedback since the BoF on the charter. The charter is on the homegate wiki now, at: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE Action items / requests: 1 =AD Please review the charter at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE 2 =AD Please reply to this mailing list as follows: a =AD Charter looks good / no changes b =AD I=B9d like to propose change X / Y / Z to the charter Thanks! Jason --B_3347962149_3886570 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed We have received virtually no feedback since the BoF on the charter.  = ;The charter is on the homegate wiki now, at:
http://tra= c.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE

Action items / requests:
1 – Please review the charter at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/H= OMEGATE
2 – Please reply to this mailing list as follows:
    a – Charter looks good / no changes
    b – I’d like to propose change X / Y / = Z to the charter

Thanks!
Jason --B_3347962149_3886570-- From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Tue Feb 2 10:38:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410343A6B41 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:38:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.174 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.174 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.175, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3wVUP7gyKK0J for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6003A6B3E for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.70156378; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:38:31 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:38:30 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:38:29 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:38:32 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: "homegate@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) Thread-Index: AcqkNuuEcTELuOZO0k+f6ch8v5wD6g== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3347962713_3912010" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2010 18:38:30.0184 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA6F6A80:01CAA436] Subject: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:38:08 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3347962713_3912010 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki. Generally speaking, the objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the first day makes sense, with the second day as optional. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE Action Items / Requests for feedback: 1 =AD What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts? We=B9ve received these suggestions: -- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France) -- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norway= ) -- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver) -- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland) -- Others?? 2 =AD What should the agenda be? See http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feedback to the list 3 =8B When should the meeting be held? Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you=B9d like to attend 4 =8B Where should the meeting be held? Take Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you=B9d like to attend Thank you! Jason --B_3347962713_3912010 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + = date selection) A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki.  Generally speaking,= the objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the f= irst day makes sense, with the second day as optional.

http://tra= c.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE

Action Items / Requests for feedback:
1 – What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts?  We&#= 8217;ve received these suggestions:
-- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France)
-- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norway= )
-- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver)
-- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland)
-- Others??

2 – What should the agenda be?
See http:/= /trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feedback to= the list

3 — When should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http://doo= dle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you’d like to attend

4 — Where should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http:/= /www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you’d like to attend

Thank you!
Jason
 --B_3347962713_3912010-- From henk@ripe.net Wed Feb 3 01:37:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E61C3A6BD3 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 01:37:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.262 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.262 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.337, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W9qf0fSg8eCe for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 01:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from postlady.ripe.net (postlady.ipv6.ripe.net [IPv6:2001:610:240:11::c100:1341]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03083A677D for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 01:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayeaye.ripe.net ([193.0.1.103]) by postlady.ripe.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NcbgP-0006AY-1R; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:38:06 +0100 Received: from henk.vpn.ripe.net ([193.0.21.33] helo=guest-23.ripe.net) by ayeaye.ripe.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NcbgO-0006z2-VD; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:38:00 +0100 Message-ID: <4B6943F8.2030707@ripe.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:38:00 +0100 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Livingood References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-RIPE-Signature: e0cdef1f45f89a40ad608d255b27e7d5055d1a0f0fc376146c24b560495cd626 X-RIPE-Spam-Level: ---- X-RIPE-Signature: e0cdef1f45f89a40ad608d255b27e7d5055d1a0f0fc376146c24b560495cd626 Cc: "homegate@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homegate] Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:37:28 -0000 Jason Livingood wrote: > We have received virtually no feedback since the BoF on the charter. > The charter is on the homegate wiki now, at: > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE > > Action items / requests: > 1 – Please review the charter at > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE > 2 – Please reply to this mailing list as follows: > a – Charter looks good / no changes > b – I’d like to propose change X / Y / Z to the charter > 2b, looks good to me, Henk -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~henku P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public. H.L.Mencken From ford@isoc.org Wed Feb 3 04:36:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A803A68F3 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 04:36:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tOFvX6FkPbGQ for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 04:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp187.iad.emailsrvr.com (smtp187.iad.emailsrvr.com [207.97.245.187]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785563A68BF for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 04:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay8.relay.iad.mlsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay8.relay.iad.mlsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 210082093F1 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:36:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by relay8.relay.iad.mlsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: ford-AT-isoc.org) with ESMTPSA id B2E5E209371 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:36:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4B696DE6.5030805@isoc.org> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:36:54 +0000 From: Matthew Ford User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homegate@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [homegate] Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:36:15 -0000 Jason, I think the charter looks good but could use a little more clarity around what documents will be produced, and what the milestones will be. At present the impression is that two documents will be produced (one for IPv4 only, one for dual-stack). One area where this is confusing is that I imagine that both of these documents will include security-related topics, but those are currently de-prioritised in the prioritisation list. If both documents require all topics in the prioritisation list to be addressed, what is the point of the list? So, more clarity is needed I think. Mat On 02/02/2010 18:29, Jason Livingood wrote: > We have received virtually no feedback since the BoF on the charter. The > charter is on the homegate wiki now, at: > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE > > Action items / requests: > 1 ­ Please review the charter at > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE > 2 ­ Please reply to this mailing list as follows: > a ­ Charter looks good / no changes > b ­ I¹d like to propose change X / Y / Z to the charter > > Thanks! > Jason > > > > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From iljitsch@muada.com Wed Feb 3 05:40:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D16C3A689C for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:40:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2OBlnCbuvU8X for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:1af8:2:5::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FDB33A6858 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from wifi-83-204.uc3m.es (wifi-83-204.uc3m.es [163.117.83.204]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o13DdafS086679 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:39:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: <4B696DE6.5030805@isoc.org> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:40:42 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6667A690-B78C-4278-9AE5-4D8EA518B902@muada.com> References: <4B696DE6.5030805@isoc.org> To: Matthew Ford X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:40:13 -0000 On 3 feb 2010, at 13:36, Matthew Ford wrote: > I think the charter looks good but could use a little more clarity = around what documents will be produced, and what the milestones will be. = At present the impression is that two documents will be produced (one = for IPv4 only, one for dual-stack). One area where this is confusing is = that I imagine that both of these documents will include = security-related topics, but those are=20 How does that make any sense? IPv4 home gateways have existed for a = decade, there is no point in writing up a single purpose document for = those. From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Thu Feb 4 10:53:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A603A6D5B for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:53:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.232 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.232 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.233, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jt3LugUiPAPQ for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C1133A6DC1 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.15.118]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.70667370; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:54:09 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP04.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:54:05 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 18:54:04 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:54:08 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: "homegate@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) Thread-Index: AcqkNuuEcTELuOZO0k+f6ch8v5wD6gBlIK4N In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 2 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3348136448_5564399" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Feb 2010 18:54:05.0164 (UTC) FILETIME=[6C8D8AC0:01CAA5CB] Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:53:31 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3348136448_5564399 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable REMINDER --> Please vote now on possible dates and locations for the interi= m meeting, as noted below (cross-SDO-focused). 1 - Please vote on possible dates here: =A0http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw 2 - Please vote on possible locations here: =A0http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn We=B9d like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, which mean= s we have a bit of logistical planning to do. Thanks Jason On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" wrote: > A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki. Generally speaking, the > objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the fir= st > day makes sense, with the second day as optional. >=20 > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE >=20 > Action Items / Requests for feedback: > 1 =AD What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts? We=B9ve receive= d > these suggestions: > -- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France) > -- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norw= ay) > -- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver) > -- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland) > -- Others?? >=20 > 2 =AD What should the agenda be? > See http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide > feedback to the list >=20 > 3 =8B When should the meeting be held? > Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you=B9d like to a= ttend >=20 > 4 =8B Where should the meeting be held? > Take Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you=B9d like = to > attend >=20 > Thank you! > Jason --B_3348136448_5564399 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (p= lus location + date selection) REMINDER --> Please vote now on possible dates and locations for the = interim meeting, as noted below (cross-SDO-focused).

1 - Please vote on possible dates here: =A0http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw

2 - Please vote on possible locations here: =A0http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn

We’d like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, whic= h means we have a bit of logistical planning to do.

Thanks
Jason

On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" <jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com> wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wik= i.  Generally speaking, the objective is to discuss possible areas of o= verlap. Thus, at least the first day makes sense, with the second day as opt= ional.

http://tra= c.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE

Action Items / Requests for feedback:
1 – What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts?  We&#= 8217;ve received these suggestions:
-- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France)
-- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norway= )
-- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver)
-- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland)
-- Others??

2 – What should the agenda be?
See http:/= /trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feedback to= the list

3 — When should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http://doo= dle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you’d like to attend

4 — Where should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http:/= /www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you’d like to attend

Thank you!
Jason
--B_3348136448_5564399-- From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Thu Feb 4 10:56:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03AE53A6C6C for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:56:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.499, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M-EgqcUCU6kP for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFCF628C162 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.70668429; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:57:28 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:57:27 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 18:57:27 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:57:32 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: Matthew Ford , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed Thread-Index: Acqly+fWrWIn5c5300+JaODCUQZGkA== In-Reply-To: <4B696DE6.5030805@isoc.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Feb 2010 18:57:27.0734 (UTC) FILETIME=[E54B4560:01CAA5CB] Subject: Re: [homegate] Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:56:47 -0000 IMHO the point of the prioritization list was simply to help us organize what topics were most important to work on sooner rather than later. In on= e example, I could imaging that a -00 draft might address some of the higher priority items and not (initially) the lower priority items, which would be added later as the document evolved. Let me ponder how I might structure that section differently, as you might see in a normal charter. Thx Jason On 2/3/10 7:36 AM, "Matthew Ford" wrote: > Jason, >=20 > I think the charter looks good but could use a little more clarity > around what documents will be produced, and what the milestones will be. > At present the impression is that two documents will be produced (one > for IPv4 only, one for dual-stack). One area where this is confusing is > that I imagine that both of these documents will include > security-related topics, but those are currently de-prioritised in the > prioritisation list. If both documents require all topics in the > prioritisation list to be addressed, what is the point of the list? So, > more clarity is needed I think. >=20 > Mat >=20 > On 02/02/2010 18:29, Jason Livingood wrote: >> We have received virtually no feedback since the BoF on the charter. Th= e >> charter is on the homegate wiki now, at: >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE >>=20 >> Action items / requests: >> 1 =AD Please review the charter at >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE >> 2 =AD Please reply to this mailing list as follows: >> a =AD Charter looks good / no changes >> b =AD I=B9d like to propose change X / Y / Z to the charter >>=20 >> Thanks! >> Jason From hkirksey@motive.com Thu Feb 4 11:01:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70DE628C191 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:01:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a47ebxCSe-N6 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:01:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.motive.com (m1.motive.com [64.186.184.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8AD428C19C for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:01:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.motive.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id EE3D33E18; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:02:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from bellagio.motive.com (unknown [135.115.129.116]) by m1.motive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A37923E12; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:02:19 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAA5CC.7D5E5EE0" Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:00:46 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) Thread-Index: AcqkNuuEcTELuOZO0k+f6ch8v5wD6gBlIK4NAAAeD7A= References: From: "Heather Kirksey" To: "Jason Livingood" , X-PMX-Version: 5.4.6.353000 Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:01:41 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAA5CC.7D5E5EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jason, =20 Thanks for sending the links out. Since you're inviting members of other organizations to this event, it's probably worth noting that UPnP Forum is meeting the week of May 3 and Broadband Forum is meeting the week of May 24. This will likely have an impact on the availability of your invited guests. It's up to you, but you might want to remove those weeks from the doodle; perhaps offering a couple weeks in June to have the same breadth of options. =20 Thanks, Heather =20 From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jason Livingood Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:54 PM To: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) Importance: High =20 REMINDER --> Please vote now on possible dates and locations for the interim meeting, as noted below (cross-SDO-focused). 1 - Please vote on possible dates here: http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw 2 - Please vote on possible locations here: http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn We'd like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, which means we have a bit of logistical planning to do. Thanks Jason On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" wrote: A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki. Generally speaking, the objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the first day makes sense, with the second day as optional. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE Action Items / Requests for feedback: 1 - What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts? We've received these suggestions: -- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France) -- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norway) -- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver) -- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland) -- Others?? 2 - What should the agenda be? See http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feedback to the list 3 - When should the meeting be held? Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you'd like to attend 4 - Where should the meeting be held? Take Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you'd like to attend Thank you! Jason ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAA5CC.7D5E5EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda = (plus location + date selection)

Jason,

 

Thanks for sending the links out.  Since = you’re inviting members of other organizations to this event, it’s = probably worth noting that UPnP Forum is meeting the week of May 3 and Broadband Forum = is meeting the week of May 24.  This will likely have an impact on the availability of your invited guests.  It’s up to you, but you = might want to remove those weeks from the doodle; perhaps offering a couple = weeks in June to have the same breadth of options.

 

Thanks,

Heather

 

From:= homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Jason Livingood
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:54 PM
To: homegate@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants = and Agenda (plus location + date selection)
Importance: High

 

REMINDER --> Please vote now on = possible dates and locations for the interim meeting, as noted below (cross-SDO-focused).

1 - Please vote on possible dates here:  http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykz= abbqw

2 - Please vote on possible locations here:  http://www.doodle.com/tza= 3g5mafwssticn

We’d like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, = which means we have a bit of logistical planning to do.

Thanks
Jason

On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" <jason_livingood@cable.comcast.= com> wrote:

A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki.  Generally speaking, = the objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the = first day makes sense, with the second day as optional.

http://tr= ac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE

Action Items / Requests for feedback:
1 – What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts?  We’ve received these suggestions:
-- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France)
-- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan = (Norway)
-- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver)
-- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland)
-- Others??

2 – What should the agenda be?
See http://tr= ac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feedback to the list

3 — When should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykz= abbqw if you’d like to attend

4 — Where should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza= 3g5mafwssticn if you’d like to attend

Thank you!
Jason

------_=_NextPart_001_01CAA5CC.7D5E5EE0-- From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Thu Feb 4 11:21:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D1F3A672E for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:21:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.066 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.066 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JGajii+l+iyA for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 700F828C1A2 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.70677844; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:22:05 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:21:51 -0500 Received: from 10.36.144.240 ([10.36.144.240]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.154]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 19:21:51 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:21:56 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: Heather Kirksey , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) Thread-Index: AcqkNuuEcTELuOZO0k+f6ch8v5wD6gBlIK4NAAAeD7AAANp+Ig== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3348138116_5653698" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Feb 2010 19:21:51.0603 (UTC) FILETIME=[4DD3F430:01CAA5CF] Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:21:30 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3348138116_5653698 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the conflict notice. I have updated the poll. It didn=B9t seem t= o let me delete the columns, so I just marked them as conflicts to avoid. I will also update the wiki shortly to note that as well. Jason On 2/4/10 2:00 PM, "Heather Kirksey" wrote: > Jason, > =20 > Thanks for sending the links out. Since you=B9re inviting members of other > organizations to this event, it=B9s probably worth noting that UPnP Forum i= s > meeting the week of May 3 and Broadband Forum is meeting the week of May = 24. > This will likely have an impact on the availability of your invited guest= s. > It=B9s up to you, but you might want to remove those weeks from the doodle; > perhaps offering a couple weeks in June to have the same breadth of optio= ns. > =20 > Thanks, > Heather > =20 >=20 > From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf > Of Jason Livingood > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:54 PM > To: homegate@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agend= a > (plus location + date selection) > Importance: High > =20 > REMINDER --> Please vote now on possible dates and locations for the inte= rim > meeting, as noted below (cross-SDO-focused). >=20 > 1 - Please vote on possible dates here: http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabb= qw >=20 > 2 - Please vote on possible locations here: > http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn >=20 > We=B9d like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, which me= ans > we have a bit of logistical planning to do. >=20 > Thanks > Jason >=20 > On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" > wrote: > A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki. Generally speaking, the > objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the fir= st > day makes sense, with the second day as optional. >=20 > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE >=20 > Action Items / Requests for feedback: > 1 =AD What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts? We=B9ve receive= d > these suggestions: > -- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France) > -- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norw= ay) > -- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver) > -- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland) > -- Others?? >=20 > 2 =AD What should the agenda be? > See http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide > feedback to the list >=20 > 3 =8B When should the meeting be held? > Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you=B9d like to a= ttend >=20 > 4 =8B Where should the meeting be held? > Take Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you=B9d like = to > attend >=20 > Thank you! > Jason --B_3348138116_5653698 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (p= lus location + date selection) Thanks for the conflict notice.  I have updated the poll.  It di= dn’t seem to let me delete the columns, so I just marked them as confl= icts to avoid.  I will also update the wiki shortly to note that as wel= l.

Jason


On 2/4/10 2:00 PM, "Heather Kirksey" <hkirksey@motive.com> wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Jason,
 
Thanks for sending the links out.  Since you’re inviting members= of other organizations to this event, it’s probably worth noting that= UPnP Forum is meeting the week of May 3 and Broadband Forum is meeting the = week of May 24.  This will likely have an impact on the availability of= your invited guests.  It’s up to you, but you might want to remo= ve those weeks from the doodle; perhaps offering a couple weeks in June to h= ave the same breadth of options.
 
Thanks,
Heather
 

From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jason Livingood Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:54 PM
To: homegate@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and = Agenda (plus location + date selection)
Importance: High
http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw

2 - Please vote on possible locations here:  http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn

We’d like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, whic= h means we have a bit of logistical planning to do.

Thanks
Jason

On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" <jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com> wrote:
A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki.  Generally speaking, = the objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the fi= rst day makes sense, with the second day as optional.

http://tra= c.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE

Action Items / Requests for feedback:
1 – What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts?  We&#= 8217;ve received these suggestions:
-- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France)
-- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norway= )
-- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver)
-- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland)
-- Others??

2 – What should the agenda be?
See http:/= /trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feedback to= the list

3 — When should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http://doo= dle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you’d like to attend

4 — Where should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http:/= /www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you’d like to attend

Thank you!
Jason
--B_3348138116_5653698-- From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Thu Feb 4 11:40:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0124128C174 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:40:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.066 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.066 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fe1Rbjr-WvUY for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:40:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714F228C111 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:40:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.15.118]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.70684586; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:41:13 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP04.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:41:09 -0500 Received: from 10.36.144.240 ([10.36.144.240]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.154]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 19:41:08 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:41:14 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: Kevin Mason , "homegate@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed Thread-Index: AcqkNZtY6BrLj9H5lUOKFb2/8Fa0GwANmQ3QAFmAx40= In-Reply-To: <563C162F43D1B14E9FD2BC0A776C1E9126406FFB90@WNEXMBX01.telecom.tcnz.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="B_3348139274_5719962" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Feb 2010 19:41:09.0366 (UTC) FILETIME=[FFE89160:01CAA5D1] Subject: Re: [homegate] Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:40:40 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3348139274_5719962 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3348139274_5706061" --B_3348139274_5706061 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Good feedback. Note to list =AD I am following up under separate cover with Kevin regarding ITU and IEEE involvement. Jason On 2/2/10 8:37 PM, "Kevin Mason" wrote: > A comment on your charter and proposed work form a remote observer. > =20 > AS an introduction I am the Rapporteur for Question 11 of Study group 12 = at > the ITU so have an interest in working with relevant groups in the IETF a= nd > elsewhere on matters relating to service performance across demarcation > boundaries. The interworking between the home network and the WAN is a ve= ry > important such boundary. > =20 > An area that you may wish to encompass in your study relates to congestio= n > management and in particular the need to be able to assure service qualit= y > across the first mile link for latency and loss sensitive applications. T= his > is often referred to admission control. > =20 > AT present the principle architectural assumptions in the work of most > standards bodies, as far as I am aware, for service assurance of IP flows > across the last mile is that service assurance would occur by reservation= s > from a centralised network policy function that would push reservations = to > edge devices such as the gateway and the access node it is connecting to = in > response to a request via a centralised SIP session controller. However e= ven > in this scenario I have not seen anybody specify what protocol would be u= sed > for this communication. Whilst this may work for sessions established via > network based SIP proxies, it does not enable applications not using such= SIP > proxies to reserve and release last mile capacity if required to assure l= ow > loss and low latency for a flow. The only devices that need to be fully a= ware > of all flows between the gateway and the first mile access node are those > devices themselves so there appears to be some logic in these two devices > being able to directly negotiate this as required. If the gateway sits be= hind > a network termination unit at the home then this device may also need to > participate in the last mile WAN reservation process. > =20 > Within the home network the IEEE have recognised this issue for video > streaming and are addressing this through the Audio/Video Bridging Task G= roup > http://www.ieee802.org/1/pages/avbridges.html. IT can be expected that a > gateway may need to be aware of this and participate in it on the LAN sid= e if > this work gains market acceptance. The issue is however that quality assu= red > flows over the WAN last mile may also need such reservation mechanisms fo= r RTP > streams to/from outside the home. Beyond the immediate access link more > aggregated mechanisms (rather than per flow reservations) may be more > efficient but the limited transmission resources over the last mile will > continue to need to be more carefully managed per flow for service assura= nce. > =20 > So an alternative approach to the highly centralised SIP proxy based Poli= cy > admission control function, is a more localized interaction between the > gateway and the immediately adjacent service provider access node it is > connected to, to communicate and reserve last mile capacity in response t= o a > request by any device/application within the home. > =20 > So I make the following comments; > =20 > 1/ You may wish to invite the IEEE Audio/Video Bridging Task Group to you= r > proposed interim meeting > 2/ I would encourage you to consider whether your charter should consider > candidate protocols and recommended implementation for reservation of > bandwidth over the last mile. > =20 >=20 >=20 > Regards > =20 > =20 > Kevin Mason =20 > Principal Solution Architect > T=20 > M=20 > E +64 4 382 5299 (extn 45299) > +64 27 445 9202=20 > kevin.mason@telecom.co.nz > Level 1 - Unit 1, Telecom Centre, 49-55 Tory Street > P O Box 293, Wellington, New Zealand 6140 > www.telecom.co.nz > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If you a= re > not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please contact me > immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of this communic= ation > or disclose anything about it. Thank you. Please note that this communica= tion > does not designate an information system for the purposes of the Electron= ic > Transactions Act 2002. > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf > Of Jason Livingood > Sent: Wednesday, 3 February 2010 7:29 a.m. > To: homegate@ietf.org > Subject: [homegate] Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed > =20 > We have received virtually no feedback since the BoF on the charter. The > charter is on the homegate wiki now, at: > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE >=20 > Action items / requests: > 1 =AD Please review the charter at > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE > 2 =AD Please reply to this mailing list as follows: > a =AD Charter looks good / no changes > b =AD I=B9d like to propose change X / Y / Z to the charter >=20 > Thanks! > Jason --B_3348139274_5706061 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed Good feedback.

Note to list – I am following up under separate cover with Kevin rega= rding ITU and IEEE involvement.

Jason


On 2/2/10 8:37 PM, "Kevin Mason" <Kevin.Mason@telecom.co.nz> wrote:

A comment on your ch= arter and proposed work form a remote observer.
 
AS an introduction I am the Rapporteur for Question 11 of Study group 12 at= the ITU so have an interest in working with relevant groups in the IETF and= elsewhere on matters relating to service performance across demarcation bou= ndaries. The interworking between the home network and the WAN is a very imp= ortant such boundary.
 
An area that you may wish to encompass in your study relates to congestion = management and in particular the need to be able to assure service quality a= cross the first mile link for latency and loss sensitive applications. This = is often referred to admission control.
 
AT present the principle architectural assumptions in the work of most stan= dards bodies, as far as I am aware, for service assurance of IP flows across= the last mile is that service assurance would occur by reservations from a = centralised network policy function that would push  reservations to ed= ge devices such as the gateway and the access node it is connecting to in re= sponse to a request via a centralised SIP session controller. However even i= n this scenario I have not seen anybody specify what protocol would be used = for this communication. Whilst this may work for sessions established via ne= twork based SIP proxies, it does not enable applications not using such SIP = proxies to reserve and release last mile capacity if required to assure low = loss and low latency for a flow. The only devices that need to be fully awar= e of all flows between the gateway and the first mile access node are those = devices themselves so there appears to be some logic in these two devices be= ing able to directly negotiate this as required. If the gateway sits behind = a network termination unit at the home then this device may also need to par= ticipate in the last mile WAN reservation process.
 
Within the home network the IEEE have recognised this issue for video strea= ming and are addressing this through the Audio/Video Bridging Task Group http://www.ieee802.org/= 1/pages/avbridges.html. IT can be expected that a gateway may need to be= aware of this and participate in it on the LAN side if this work gains mark= et acceptance. The issue is however that quality assured flows over the WAN = last mile may also need such reservation mechanisms for RTP streams to/from = outside the home. Beyond the immediate access link more aggregated mechanism= s (rather than per flow reservations)  may be more efficient but the li= mited transmission resources over the last mile will continue to need to be = more carefully managed per flow for service assurance.
 
So an alternative approach to the highly centralised SIP proxy based Policy= admission control function, is a more localized interaction between the gat= eway and the immediately adjacent service provider access node it is connect= ed to, to communicate and reserve last mile capacity in response to a reques= t by any device/application within the home.
 
So I make the following comments;
 
1/ You may wish to invite the IEEE Audio/Video Bridging Task Group to your = proposed interim meeting
2/ I would encourage you to consider whether your charter should consider c= andidate protocols and recommended implementation for reservation of bandwid= th over the last mile.
 


Regards
       &nb= sp;      
  Kevin Mason &= nbsp; 
  Principal Solution Ar= chitect   
  T
M
E   +64 4 382 5299 (extn 45299)
 +64 27 445 9202
 kevin.mason@telecom.co.nz   
  Level 1 - Unit 1, Tel= ecom Centre, 49-55 Tory Street
P O Box 293, Wellington, New Zealand 6140
 www.telecom.co.nz= <http:/= /www.telecom.co.nz/>    
=20

 

=20


This co= mmunication, including any attachments, is confidential. If you are not the = intended recipient, you should not read it - please contact me immediately, = destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of this communication or disclos= e anything about it. Thank you. Please note that this communication does not= designate an information system for the purposes of the Electronic Transact= ions Act 2002.  

From: homegate-bo= unces@ietf.org [mailto:homega= te-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jason Livingood
Sent: Wednesday, 3 February 2010 7:29 a.m.
To: homegate@ietf.org
Subject: [homegate] Current Draft Charter - Feedback Needed
We have received virtually no feedback since the BoF on the = charter.  The charter is on the homegate wiki now, at:
http://tra= c.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE

Action items / requests:
1 – Please review the charter at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/H= OMEGATE
2 – Please reply to this mailing list as follows:
    a – Charter looks good / no changes
    b – I’d like to propose change X / Y / = Z to the charter

Thanks!

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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1d+4nDO5KO+D for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 05:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx09.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.105.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C6928C12E for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 05:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (vaebh106.europe.nokia.com [10.160.244.32]) by mgw-mx09.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o15DN49S017672; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:23:30 -0600 Received: from vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([10.160.244.30]) by vaebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 5 Feb 2010 15:23:20 +0200 Received: from smtp.mgd.nokia.com ([65.54.30.8]) by vaebh104.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 5 Feb 2010 15:23:09 +0200 Received: from NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.86]) by nok-am1mhub-04.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.8]) with mapi; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 14:23:08 +0100 From: To: , Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 14:20:56 +0100 Thread-Topic: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) Thread-Index: AcqkNuuEcTELuOZO0k+f6ch8v5wD6gBlIK4NACZ7WkA= Message-ID: <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F58954A3702@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F58954A3702NOKEUMSG01mgd_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Feb 2010 13:23:09.0498 (UTC) FILETIME=[5C1119A0:01CAA666] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 13:22:48 -0000 --_000_18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F58954A3702NOKEUMSG01mgd_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A question about SDOs: have you considered 3GPP? I mean 3GPP is currently having discussions on how to handle prefix delegat= ion for devices using 3GPP access as uplink (e.g. LTE, HSDPA), but acting a= s routers for local area networks (e.g. WLAN). Currently some 3GPP devices do implement IPv4 NATs, DHCP server, DNS proxie= s etc. In future they will implement ND proxies, DHCPv6 PD, etc. Best regards, Teemu From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal= f Of ext Jason Livingood Sent: 04 February, 2010 20:54 To: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda = (plus location + date selection) Importance: High REMINDER --> Please vote now on possible dates and locations for the interi= m meeting, as noted below (cross-SDO-focused). 1 - Please vote on possible dates here: http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw 2 - Please vote on possible locations here: http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5ma= fwssticn We'd like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, which mean= s we have a bit of logistical planning to do. Thanks Jason On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" wr= ote: A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki. Generally speaking, the o= bjective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the first = day makes sense, with the second day as optional. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE Action Items / Requests for feedback: 1 - What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts? We've received = these suggestions: -- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France) -- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norway= ) -- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver) -- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland) -- Others?? 2 - What should the agenda be? See http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feed= back to the list 3 - When should the meeting be held? Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you'd like to att= end 4 - Where should the meeting be held? Take Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you'd like to= attend Thank you! Jason --_000_18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F58954A3702NOKEUMSG01mgd_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (p= lus location + date selection)

A question about SDOs: have you considered 3GPP?<= /span>

 

I mean 3GPP is currently having discussions on how to handle prefix delegation for devices using 3GPP access as uplink (e.g. LTE, HSDPA)= , but acting as routers for local area networks (e.g. WLAN).

 

Currently some 3GPP devices do implement IPv4 NATs, DHCP ser= ver, DNS proxies etc. In future they will implement ND proxies, DHCPv6 PD, etc. =

 

Best regards,

 

Teemu

 

 

From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O= f ext Jason Livingood
Sent: 04 February, 2010 20:54
To: homegate@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection)
Importance: High

 

REMINDER --> Please vote now on poss= ible dates and locations for the interim meeting, as noted below (cross-SDO-focused).

1 - Please vote on possible dates here:  http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzab= bqw

2 - Please vote on possible locations here:  http://www.doodle.com/tza3g= 5mafwssticn

We’d like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, whic= h means we have a bit of logistical planning to do.

Thanks
Jason

On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" <jason_livingood@cable.comcast.co= m> wrote:

A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki.  Generally speaking, th= e objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the first= day makes sense, with the second day as optional.

http://t= rac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE

Action Items / Requests for feedback:
1 – What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts?  We’ve received these suggestions:
-- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France)
-- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norway= )
-- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver)
-- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland)
-- Others??

2 – What should the agenda be?
See http= ://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feedback to the list

3 — When should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http://d= oodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you’d like to attend

4 — Where should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http= ://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you’d like to attend

Thank you!
Jason

--_000_18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F58954A3702NOKEUMSG01mgd_-- From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Fri Feb 5 05:56:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AAA228C171 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 05:56:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kMNaZhFWdvm8 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 05:56:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF9E3A6EA3 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 05:56:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.15.118]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.70816783; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:57:14 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP04.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 5 Feb 2010 08:57:08 -0500 Received: from 68.83.175.155 ([68.83.175.155]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 13:57:07 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:57:05 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) Thread-Index: AcqkNuuEcTELuOZO0k+f6ch8v5wD6gBlIK4NACZ7WkAAAW9r6A== In-Reply-To: <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F58954A3702@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3348205026_6552731" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Feb 2010 13:57:08.0956 (UTC) FILETIME=[1BADB1C0:01CAA66B] Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 13:56:32 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3348205026_6552731 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable We=B9re happy to consider anyone. If you can recommend (perhaps off-list to me directly) who from 3GPP to invite, that would be great. Thanks Jason On 2/5/10 8:20 AM, "teemu.savolainen@nokia.com" wrote: > A question about SDOs: have you considered 3GPP? > =20 > I mean 3GPP is currently having discussions on how to handle prefix deleg= ation > for devices using 3GPP access as uplink (e.g. LTE, HSDPA), but acting as > routers for local area networks (e.g. WLAN). > =20 > Currently some 3GPP devices do implement IPv4 NATs, DHCP server, DNS prox= ies > etc. In future they will implement ND proxies, DHCPv6 PD, etc. > =20 > Best regards, > =20 > Teemu > =20 > =20 >=20 > From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf > Of ext Jason Livingood > Sent: 04 February, 2010 20:54 > To: homegate@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agend= a > (plus location + date selection) > Importance: High > =20 > REMINDER --> Please vote now on possible dates and locations for the inte= rim > meeting, as noted below (cross-SDO-focused). >=20 > 1 - Please vote on possible dates here: http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabb= qw >=20 > 2 - Please vote on possible locations here: > http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn >=20 > We=B9d like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, which me= ans > we have a bit of logistical planning to do. >=20 > Thanks > Jason >=20 > On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" > wrote: > A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki. Generally speaking, the > objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the fir= st > day makes sense, with the second day as optional. >=20 > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE >=20 > Action Items / Requests for feedback: > 1 =AD What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts? We=B9ve receive= d > these suggestions: > -- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France) > -- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norw= ay) > -- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver) > -- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland) > -- Others?? >=20 > 2 =AD What should the agenda be? > See http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide > feedback to the list >=20 > 3 =8B When should the meeting be held? > Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you=B9d like to a= ttend >=20 > 4 =8B Where should the meeting be held? > Take Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you=B9d like = to > attend >=20 > Thank you! > Jason --B_3348205026_6552731 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (p= lus location + date selection) We’re happy to consider anyone.  If you can recommend (perhaps = off-list to me directly) who from 3GPP to invite, that would be great.

Thanks
Jason


On 2/5/10 8:20 AM, "teemu.savolai= nen@nokia.com" <teemu.savol= ainen@nokia.com> wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>A question about SDOs: hav= e you considered 3GPP?
 
I mean 3GPP is currently having discussions on how to handle prefix delegat= ion for devices using 3GPP access as uplink (e.g. LTE, HSDPA), but acting as= routers for local area networks (e.g. WLAN).
 
Currently some 3GPP devices do implement IPv4 NATs, DHCP server, DNS proxie= s etc. In future they will implement ND proxies, DHCPv6 PD, etc.
 
Best regards,
 
Teemu
 
 

From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Jason Livingo= od
Sent: 04 February, 2010 20:54
To: homegate@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and = Agenda (plus location + date selection)
Importance: High
http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw

2 - Please vote on possible locations here:  http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn

We’d like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, whic= h means we have a bit of logistical planning to do.

Thanks
Jason

On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" <jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com> wrote:
A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki.  Generally speaking, = the objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the fi= rst day makes sense, with the second day as optional.

http://tra= c.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE

Action Items / Requests for feedback:
1 – What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts?  We&#= 8217;ve received these suggestions:
-- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France)
-- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norway= )
-- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver)
-- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland)
-- Others??

2 – What should the agenda be?
See http:/= /trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feedback to= the list

3 — When should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http://doo= dle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you’d like to attend

4 — Where should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http:/= /www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you’d like to attend

Thank you!
Jason
--B_3348205026_6552731-- From mbaugher@cisco.com Fri Feb 5 09:24:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D4123A6915 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:24:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AUekUO3Cad3J for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:24:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23AA83A680C for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:24:29 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiYFAMPja0urR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACBbL5Ml3mEUgQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,414,1262563200"; d="scan'208,217";a="296365236" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Feb 2010 17:25:20 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o15HPJ1l010770; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 17:25:20 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:25:19 -0800 Received: from sjc-mbaugher-87113.cisco.com ([10.19.93.46]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:25:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-15--679290413 From: Mark Baugher X-Priority: 2 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:25:18 -0800 Message-Id: <608D1B8F-3353-43DB-80EF-147CEF603B0A@cisco.com> References: To: Jason Livingood X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Feb 2010 17:25:19.0159 (UTC) FILETIME=[306B6C70:01CAA688] Cc: homegate@ietf.org, Mika.Saaranen@nokia.com Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:24:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail-15--679290413 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Jason, I can serve as an informal contact to UPnP. The formal process is = cumbersome. I'll report back to the IGD working committee and the UPnP = Technical Committee if need be. Mark On Feb 4, 2010, at 10:54 AM, Jason Livingood wrote: > REMINDER --> Please vote now on possible dates and locations for the = interim meeting, as noted below (cross-SDO-focused). >=20 > 1 - Please vote on possible dates here: = http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw >=20 > 2 - Please vote on possible locations here: = http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn >=20 > We=92d like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, = which means we have a bit of logistical planning to do. >=20 > Thanks > Jason >=20 > On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" = wrote: >=20 >> A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki. Generally speaking, = the objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least = the first day makes sense, with the second day as optional. >>=20 >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE >>=20 >> Action Items / Requests for feedback: >> 1 =96 What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts? We=92ve = received these suggestions: >> -- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France) >> -- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan = (Norway) >> -- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver) >> -- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland) >> -- Others?? >>=20 >> 2 =96 What should the agenda be? >> See http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and = provide feedback to the list >>=20 >> 3 =97 When should the meeting be held? >> Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you=92d = like to attend >>=20 >> 4 =97 Where should the meeting be held? >> Take Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you=92d = like to attend >>=20 >> Thank you! >> Jason > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate --Apple-Mail-15--679290413 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
REMINDER --> Please vote now on possible = dates and locations for the interim meeting, as noted below = (cross-SDO-focused).

1 - Please vote on possible dates here:  http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykza= bbqw

2 - Please vote on possible locations here:  http://www.doodle.com/tza3= g5mafwssticn

We=92d like to be able to announce a location and date at IETF 77, which = means we have a bit of logistical planning to do.

Thanks
Jason

On 2/2/10 1:38 PM, "Jason Livingood" <jason_livingood@cab= le.comcast.com> wrote:

A proposed one or two = day agenda is on the wiki.  Generally speaking, the objective is to = discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the first day makes = sense, with the second day as optional.

http://tra= c.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE

Action Items / Requests for feedback:
1 =96 What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts?  We=92ve= received these suggestions:
-- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France)
-- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan = (Norway)
-- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver)
-- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland)
-- Others??

2 =96 What should the agenda be?
See http://tra= c.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feedback to = the list

3 =97 When should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykza= bbqw if you=92d like to attend

4 =97 Where should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza3= g5mafwssticn if you=92d like to attend

Thank you!
Jason
_______________________________________________
homegate mailing = list
homegate@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/homegate

= --Apple-Mail-15--679290413-- From wbeebee@cisco.com Fri Feb 5 09:53:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B9A3A69F7 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:53:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.694, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LK8BETJbof2k for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900493A6801 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:53:31 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiYFAAfqa0utJV2d/2dsb2JhbACBbL8Pl3iEUgQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,414,1262563200"; d="scan'208,217";a="238105396" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Feb 2010 17:54:22 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com [72.163.62.138]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o15HsMY3030050; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 17:54:22 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 5 Feb 2010 11:54:21 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAA68C.3F031DBE" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 11:54:21 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) Thread-Index: AcqkNuuEcTELuOZO0k+f6ch8v5wD6gCVTD+w References: From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" To: "Jason Livingood" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Feb 2010 17:54:21.0899 (UTC) FILETIME=[3F2C71B0:01CAA68C] Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:53:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAA68C.3F031DBE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What remote participation capabilities will there be? =20 WebEx? Jabber/audio streams? =20 Wes Beebee Software Engineer Product Development wbeebee@cisco.com United States Cisco.com - http://www.cisco.com For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html =20 ________________________________ From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jason Livingood Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:39 PM To: homegate@ietf.org Subject: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki. Generally speaking, the objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the first day makes sense, with the second day as optional. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE Action Items / Requests for feedback: 1 - What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts? We've received these suggestions: -- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France) -- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norway) -- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver) -- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland) -- Others?? 2 - What should the agenda be? See http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feedback to the list 3 - When should the meeting be held? Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you'd like to attend 4 - Where should the meeting be held? Take Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you'd like to attend Thank you! Jason ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAA68C.3F031DBE Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda = (plus location + date selection)
What remote participation capabilities will = there=20 be?
 
WebEx?  Jabber/audio = streams?
 
Wes Beebee
Software=20 Engineer
Product Development
wbeebee@cisco.com

United=20 States
Cisco.com - http://www.cisco.com
For corporate legal = information go=20 to:
http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html=
 

From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jason=20 Livingood
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:39 = PM
To:=20 homegate@ietf.org
Subject: [homegate] Interim Meeting - = Proposed=20 Participants and Agenda (plus location + date = selection)

A proposed one or two day agenda is on the = wiki.=20  Generally speaking, the objective is to discuss possible areas of = overlap.=20 Thus, at least the first day makes sense, with the second day as=20 optional.

http://tr= ac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE

Action=20 Items / Requests for feedback:
1 – What SDOs should be involved = and who are=20 the contacts?  We’ve received these suggestions:
-- = Cablelabs:=20 Jean-Francois Mule (France)
-- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather = Kirksey=20 (Texas), Ole Troan (Norway)
-- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver)
-- = UPnP Forum:=20 Mark Baugher (Portland)
-- Others??

2 – What should the = agenda=20 be?
See http://tr= ac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE=20 and provide feedback to the list

3 — When should the = meeting be=20 held?
Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykz= abbqw=20 if you’d like to attend

4 — Where should the meeting = be held?
Take=20 Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza= 3g5mafwssticn=20 if you’d like to attend

Thank=20 you!
Jason
 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAA68C.3F031DBE-- From erik.taraldsen@telenor.com Sun Feb 7 23:44:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C413A6B62 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 23:44:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.129 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.129 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DvWvIJ78Sp3T for ; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 23:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from urd.telenor.net (virus-out-st.online.no [193.212.240.200]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED023A6886 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 23:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from tns-fbu-22-250.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.162.19] [134.47.162.19]) by urd.telenor.net with ESMTPS id BT-MMP-227134 for homegate@ietf.org; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:45:20 +0100 Received: from TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.163.219]) by tns-fbu-22-250.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.162.19]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:45:17 +0100 From: To: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:45:14 +0100 Thread-Topic: UDP in torrents Thread-Index: AcqokqZx33MBLUHnSBGZFCxxiDC1bA== Message-ID: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> Accept-Language: nb-NO Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-puzzleid: {ACAF87B2-F13C-4532-863E-F9570978CCCB} x-cr-hashedpuzzle: AZQl A3Ab B1ne CvKQ C169 D40n Eigl EsnF E9iI FBzp FuNa GE+H GhZu Gno8 ISM4 JZQ7; 1; aABvAG0AZQBnAGEAdABlAEAAaQBlAHQAZgAuAG8AcgBnAA==; Sosha1_v1; 7; {ACAF87B2-F13C-4532-863E-F9570978CCCB}; ZQByAGkAawAuAHQAYQByAGEAbABkAHMAZQBuAEAAdABlAGwAZQBuAG8AcgAuAGMAbwBtAA==; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:45:14 GMT;VQBEAFAAIABpAG4AIAB0AG8AcgByAGUAbgB0AHMA acceptlanguage: nb-NO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:44:22 -0000 This may be old news for the most of you, and even of topic, so feel free t= o ignore this mail or hit me over the head. Bit torrent (which is quite popular in the Nordic countries at least) is st= arting to move over to preferring UDP. This is relevant to NAT and firewal= l tables within the CPE's. Since there is no fin/rst mechanism in UDP the = CPE needs to rely on timeout for all UDP connections. And since UDP within= bit torrent is lighter on the endpoints we probably will see an increase o= f UDP over what the equivalent TCP would have been for a given PC. Dependi= ng on the NAT/firewall implementation this can lead to a single PC on a LAN= hogging all connections and thereby denying others internet access or inde= ed other services the ISP provide. Just a heads up for those of you which are hands on the CPE's. And yes, there are issues with the current scaling of bit torrent and tcp, = but my gut feeling is that this is going to be turned up a notch. http://lifehacker.com/5463421/utorrent-20-brings-performance-updates-bandwi= dth-control-udp-support-and-more http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?id=3D65482 -Erik Taraldsen From iljitsch@muada.com Mon Feb 8 01:04:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429A93A69D5 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 01:04:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HdhMjtqTKlye for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 01:04:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:1af8:2:5::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DFFE3A68CC for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 01:04:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:720:410:100f:223:32ff:fec4:ba94] ([IPv6:2001:720:410:100f:223:32ff:fec4:ba94]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o18948Pv028506 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:04:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:05:23 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:04:29 -0000 On 8 feb 2010, at 8:45, wrote: > Bit torrent (which is quite popular in the Nordic countries at least) = is starting to move over to preferring UDP. This is relevant to NAT and = firewall tables within the CPE's. So it's important to do something reasonable when the translation tables = are full. Both killing long-lived sessions and making new ones (DNS = queries...) impossible is suboptimal. But in practice there doesn't have to be a big problem, because most = BitTorrent users have a port mapping that allows them to receive = incoming sessions. So if packets matching such a port mapping are = translated without using space in the translation table this isn't an = issue. This may or may not be the way things are currently implemented = in any given implementation, though. From lars.eggert@nokia.com Mon Feb 8 01:56:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7D003A7305 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 01:56:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W6Yekl7LOdd4 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 01:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-mx03.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [192.100.122.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81AED3A72E5 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 01:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx03.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o189v5fX026740; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:57:19 +0200 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:57:03 +0200 Received: from mgw-sa02.ext.nokia.com ([147.243.1.48]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:57:03 +0200 Received: from mail.fit.nokia.com (esdhcp030222.research.nokia.com [172.21.30.222]) by mgw-sa02.ext.nokia.com (Switch-3.3.3/Switch-3.3.3) with ESMTP id o189v1A4025371 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:57:01 +0200 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.3 at fit.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-4--446993756; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:56:54 +0200 Message-Id: <597599AA-D39B-49AF-9031-D3061A2393F5@nokia.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> To: erik.taraldsen@telenor.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (mail.fit.nokia.com [0.0.0.0]); Mon, 08 Feb 2010 11:56:55 +0200 (EET) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2010 09:57:03.0646 (UTC) FILETIME=[10AF13E0:01CAA8A5] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: "homegate@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:56:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail-4--446993756 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2010-2-8, at 9:45, erik.taraldsen@telenor.com wrote: > Bit torrent (which is quite popular in the Nordic countries at least) = is starting to move over to preferring UDP. thanks for the note. The IETF is well aware of this, and we chartered a = working group in the transport area in order to specify a congestion = control scheme for "background traffic" for further experimentation, = based on the BitTorrent mechanism: = http://www.ietf.org/dyn/wg/charter/ledbat-charter > This is relevant to NAT and firewall tables within the CPE's. Since = there is no fin/rst mechanism in UDP the CPE needs to rely on timeout = for all UDP connections. And since UDP within bit torrent is lighter on = the endpoints we probably will see an increase of UDP over what the = equivalent TCP would have been for a given PC. Depending on the = NAT/firewall implementation this can lead to a single PC on a LAN = hogging all connections and thereby denying others internet access or = indeed other services the ISP provide. I think the particular scenario you describe is one instance of a larger = problem: that most SOHO NAT boxes lack adequate overload management = schemes that kick in when they run out of resources (CPU, memory, etc.) = I agree that his could be an area where HOMEGATE could make a = recommendation or refer to an existing suitable recommendation of = another standards body. 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Mon, 8 Feb 2010 07:13:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.261 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.261 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.262, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id icB61Y6e9QAI for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 07:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A1BF3A73FB for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 07:13:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([10.52.116.30]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.71269420; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:14:36 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP01.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:14:25 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:14:24 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:14:22 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) Thread-Index: AcqkNuuEcTELuOZO0k+f6ch8v5wD6gCVTD+wAJFR+/o= In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3348468862_824577" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2010 15:14:25.0145 (UTC) FILETIME=[664D3E90:01CAA8D1] Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (plus location + date selection) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:13:44 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3348468862_824577 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable That=B9s yet to be formally determined, but I would think Jabber at a minimum= , and hopefully also some kind of web/video and/or audio conference. If you don=B9t see it addressed as the meeting approaches, please do raise the issue again. Jason On 2/5/10 12:54 PM, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" wrote: > What remote participation capabilities will there be? > =20 > WebEx? Jabber/audio streams? > =20 > Wes Beebee > Software Engineer > Product Development > wbeebee@cisco.com >=20 > United States > Cisco.com - http://www.cisco.com > For corporate legal information go to: > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html > =20 >=20 >=20 > From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf > Of Jason Livingood > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:39 PM > To: homegate@ietf.org > Subject: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (p= lus > location + date selection) >=20 > A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki. Generally speaking, the > objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the fir= st > day makes sense, with the second day as optional. >=20 > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE >=20 > Action Items / Requests for feedback: > 1 =AD What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts? We=B9ve receive= d > these suggestions: > -- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France) > -- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norw= ay) > -- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver) > -- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland) > -- Others?? >=20 > 2 =AD What should the agenda be? > See http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide > feedback to the list >=20 > 3 =8B When should the meeting be held? > Take Doodle poll at http://doodle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you=B9d like to a= ttend >=20 > 4 =8B Where should the meeting be held? > Take Doodle poll at http://www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you=B9d like = to > attend >=20 > Thank you! > Jason >=20 --B_3348468862_824577 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agenda (p= lus location + date selection) That’s yet to be formally determined, but I would think Jabber at a = minimum, and hopefully also some kind of web/video and/or audio conference. =  If you don’t see it addressed as the meeting approaches, please = do raise the issue again.

Jason


On 2/5/10 12:54 PM, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com> wrote:

What remote participation capabilities will there be?
WebEx?  Jabber/audio s= treams?
Wes Beebee
Software Engineer
Product Development
wbeebee@cisco.com

United States
Cisco.com - http://www.cisco.com
For corporate legal information go to:
http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html

From: homegate-= bounces@ietf.org [mailto:home= gate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jason Livingood
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:39 PM
To: homegate@ietf.org
Subject: [homegate] Interim Meeting - Proposed Participants and Agen= da (plus location + date selection)

A proposed one or two day agenda is on the wiki.  Generally speaking, = the objective is to discuss possible areas of overlap. Thus, at least the fi= rst day makes sense, with the second day as optional.

http://tra= c.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE

Action Items / Requests for feedback:
1 – What SDOs should be involved and who are the contacts?  We&#= 8217;ve received these suggestions:
-- Cablelabs: Jean-Francois Mule (France)
-- BBF: Barbara Stark (Atlanta), Heather Kirksey (Texas), Ole Troan (Norway= )
-- HGI: Duncan Bees (Vancouver)
-- UPnP Forum: Mark Baugher (Portland)
-- Others??

2 – What should the agenda be?
See http:/= /trac.tools.ietf.org/area/tsv/trac/wiki/HOMEGATE and provide feedback to= the list

3 — When should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http://doo= dle.com/vuh7sdqmykzabbqw if you’d like to attend

4 — Where should the meeting be held?
Take Doodle poll at http:/= /www.doodle.com/tza3g5mafwssticn if you’d like to attend

Thank you!
Jason

--B_3348468862_824577-- From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Mon Feb 8 07:48:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0F128C141 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 07:48:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.232 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.232 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.233, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oKukQGn8xojH for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 07:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5738128C130 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 07:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.71281326; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:49:09 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:48:23 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:48:23 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:48:22 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: "homegate@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting Thread-Index: Acqo1iRcTh61/UbRfkyBmeE1zS1F5A== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3348470903_923758" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2010 15:48:23.0348 (UTC) FILETIME=[252A5740:01CAA8D6] Subject: [homegate] Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:48:14 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3348470903_923758 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Right now we have slots on day two for four different home gateway vendors to present. Perhaps that is too many, we shall see. But we=B9d like to list out suggestions for who we should approach. So far I have the following =AD please advise if we should add any vendors to the candidate list. From this list we can start to reach out to people. (Even if they do not present, we should at least invite these companies.) In no particular order: 1 =AD Cisco/Linksys 2 =AD 2wire 3 =AD Thompson 4 =AD Apple 5 =AD NetGear=20 6 =AD D-Link 7 =AD SMC 8 - Belkin Also, does anyone know what companies some of these vendors may use as a component vendor that supplies key software functionality and so on, that should be invited as well? Thanks Jason --B_3348470903_923758 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting Right now we have slots on day two for four different home gateway vendors= to present.  Perhaps that is too many, we shall see.  But we̵= 7;d like to list out suggestions for who we should approach.

So far I have the following – please advise if we should add any vend= ors to the candidate list.  From this list we can start to reach out to= people. (Even if they do not present, we should at least invite these compa= nies.)

In no particular order:
1 – Cisco/Linksys
2 – 2wire
3 – Thompson
4 – Apple
5 – NetGear
6 – D-Link
7 – SMC
8 - Belkin

Also, does anyone know what companies some of these vendors may use as a co= mponent vendor that supplies key software functionality and so on, that shou= ld be invited as well?  

Thanks
Jason --B_3348470903_923758-- From kirk.erichsen@twcable.com Mon Feb 8 08:06:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6AF3A7228 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:06:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fioOl30fMhNx for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from cdpipgw02.twcable.com (cdpipgw02.twcable.com [165.237.59.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C9D13A721E for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:06:27 -0800 (PST) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.12 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,431,1262581200"; d="scan'208";a="41329966" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB03.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.12]) by cdpipgw02.twcable.com with ESMTP; 08 Feb 2010 11:07:13 -0500 Received: from PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.38]) by PRVPEXHUB03.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.12]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:07:10 -0500 From: "Erichsen, Kirk" To: Jason Livingood , "homegate@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:07:09 -0500 Thread-Topic: Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting Thread-Index: Acqo1iRcTh61/UbRfkyBmeE1zS1F5AAAIA31 Message-ID: <8F9F107F1A51524597A5D2E0F43EE96329FC8902A9@PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Subject: Re: [homegate] Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:06:29 -0000 Jason, Will the home gateways include models that have embedded modems? If so, th= e answer to your question regarding "component vendors" will differ. For a = cable modem equipped gateway router, the following will have Broadcom refer= ence designs: Cisco, Thomson, Netgear, D-Link, Belkin. The following will h= ave a Texas Instruments reference design: SMC. -KE ________________________________ From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ja= son Livingood [jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com] Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 8:48 AM To: homegate@ietf.org Subject: [homegate] Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting Right now we have slots on day two for four different home gateway vendors = to present. Perhaps that is too many, we shall see. But we=92d like to li= st out suggestions for who we should approach. So far I have the following =96 please advise if we should add any vendors = to the candidate list. From this list we can start to reach out to people.= (Even if they do not present, we should at least invite these companies.) In no particular order: 1 =96 Cisco/Linksys 2 =96 2wire 3 =96 Thompson 4 =96 Apple 5 =96 NetGear 6 =96 D-Link 7 =96 SMC 8 - Belkin Also, does anyone know what companies some of these vendors may use as a co= mponent vendor that supplies key software functionality and so on, that sho= uld be invited as well? Thanks Jason This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. From duncan_bees@telus.net Mon Feb 8 08:14:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F18D3A73A8 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:14:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QlK6tqrm9tdb for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound03.telus.net (outbound03.telus.net [199.185.220.222]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2713A6881 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from edtnaa01.telusplanet.net ([154.5.59.240]) by priv-edtnes29.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.7.08.04.00 201-2186-134-20080326) with ESMTP id <20100208161500.XSOM18427.priv-edtnes29.telusplanet.net@edtnaa01.telusplanet.net>; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 09:15:00 -0700 Received: from DuncansmallPC (d154-5-59-240.bchsia.telus.net [154.5.59.240]) by edtnaa01.telusplanet.net (BorderWare Security Platform) with ESMTP id 863B90C363A8FDEE; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 09:14:59 -0700 (MST) From: "Duncan Bees" To: "'Lars Eggert'" , References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <597599AA-D39B-49AF-9031-D3061A2393F5@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <597599AA-D39B-49AF-9031-D3061A2393F5@nokia.com> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 08:14:59 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01caa8d9$dcfba790$96f2f6b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcqopSP3TmJ2XrcMRHeYF2H9bok5IgAMsgWA Content-Language: en-ca X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 08:16:07 -0800 Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:14:00 -0000 Just to let you know that HGI has a draft requirements document in this area (home gateway requirements for handling TCP/UPD sessions including some overload management requirements). It follows from observations made by service providers about problems with current home gateways related to the impact of bit torrents. Though not yet in the public domain, we would for sure appreciate review by members of this group -- at the moment any member of HGI can see the latest draft HGI01041R09 which will soon be sent for ballot. As soon as it is in the public domain I will send the link to this group. Cheers Duncan -----Original Message----- From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lars Eggert Sent: February-08-10 1:57 AM To: erik.taraldsen@telenor.com Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents Hi, On 2010-2-8, at 9:45, erik.taraldsen@telenor.com wrote: > Bit torrent (which is quite popular in the Nordic countries at least) is starting to move over to preferring UDP. thanks for the note. The IETF is well aware of this, and we chartered a working group in the transport area in order to specify a congestion control scheme for "background traffic" for further experimentation, based on the BitTorrent mechanism: http://www.ietf.org/dyn/wg/charter/ledbat-charter > This is relevant to NAT and firewall tables within the CPE's. Since there is no fin/rst mechanism in UDP the CPE needs to rely on timeout for all UDP connections. And since UDP within bit torrent is lighter on the endpoints we probably will see an increase of UDP over what the equivalent TCP would have been for a given PC. Depending on the NAT/firewall implementation this can lead to a single PC on a LAN hogging all connections and thereby denying others internet access or indeed other services the ISP provide. I think the particular scenario you describe is one instance of a larger problem: that most SOHO NAT boxes lack adequate overload management schemes that kick in when they run out of resources (CPU, memory, etc.) I agree that his could be an area where HOMEGATE could make a recommendation or refer to an existing suitable recommendation of another standards body. Lars From hkirksey@motive.com Mon Feb 8 09:25:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C59F3A720D for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 09:25:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9GkoDCYs8YAg for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 09:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.motive.com (m1.motive.com [64.186.184.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8C13A6801 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 09:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.motive.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 96B7F3D6F for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:26:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from bellagio.motive.com (unknown [135.115.129.116]) by m1.motive.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3CD3D50 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:26:46 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:26:45 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8F9F107F1A51524597A5D2E0F43EE96329FC8902A9@PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting Thread-Index: Acqo1iRcTh61/UbRfkyBmeE1zS1F5AAAIA31AAId2rA= References: <8F9F107F1A51524597A5D2E0F43EE96329FC8902A9@PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com> From: "Heather Kirksey" To: X-PMX-Version: 5.4.6.353000 Subject: Re: [homegate] Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:25:47 -0000 Gatespace is an embedded software vendor if you're looking for one of those. HRK -----Original Message----- From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Erichsen, Kirk Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 10:07 AM To: Jason Livingood; homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting Jason, Will the home gateways include models that have embedded modems? If so, the answer to your question regarding "component vendors" will differ. For a cable modem equipped gateway router, the following will have Broadcom reference designs: Cisco, Thomson, Netgear, D-Link, Belkin. The following will have a Texas Instruments reference design: SMC. -KE ________________________________ From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jason Livingood [jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com] Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 8:48 AM To: homegate@ietf.org Subject: [homegate] Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting Right now we have slots on day two for four different home gateway vendors to present. Perhaps that is too many, we shall see. But we'd like to list out suggestions for who we should approach. So far I have the following - please advise if we should add any vendors to the candidate list. From this list we can start to reach out to people. (Even if they do not present, we should at least invite these companies.) In no particular order: 1 - Cisco/Linksys 2 - 2wire 3 - Thompson 4 - Apple 5 - NetGear 6 - D-Link 7 - SMC 8 - Belkin Also, does anyone know what companies some of these vendors may use as a component vendor that supplies key software functionality and so on, that should be invited as well? Thanks Jason This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. _______________________________________________ homegate mailing list homegate@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From jhw@apple.com Mon Feb 8 10:24:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2983A73E3 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:24:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eR55dUcPHjnr for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3298B3A6AD0 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay11.apple.com (relay11.apple.com [17.128.113.48]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797BD8AB9674 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:25:55 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807130-b7b0aae00000102c-17-4b705733172d Received: from il0602f-dhcp114.apple.com (il0602f-dhcp114.apple.com [17.206.50.114]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay11.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 6F.09.04140.337507B4; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:25:55 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:25:55 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> To: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:24:53 -0000 On Feb 8, 2010, at 01:05, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 8 feb 2010, at 8:45, wrote: >>=20 >> Bit torrent (which is quite popular in the Nordic countries at least) = is starting to move over to preferring UDP. This is relevant to NAT and = firewall tables within the CPE's. >=20 > So it's important to do something reasonable when the translation = tables are full. Both killing long-lived sessions and making new ones = (DNS queries...) impossible is suboptimal. >=20 > But in practice there doesn't have to be a big problem, because most = BitTorrent users have a port mapping that allows them to receive = incoming sessions. So if packets matching such a port mapping are = translated without using space in the translation table this isn't an = issue. This may or may not be the way things are currently implemented = in any given implementation, though. To protect against the SQL slammer worm, most NAT gateways use = Address-Port Dependent Filtering, not Endpoint Independent filtering. = Despite what the BEHAVE working group recommends. As a result, every = edge representing a UDP flow between an interior host/port and an = exterior host/port consumes a state table record in the NAT. Having a = redirection rule in place doesn't make any difference, because it = doesn't stop consumption of the critical resource: the state table = space. There is a reason BEHAVE recommends Endpoint Independent filtering as = well as translation, but sadly, a lot of NAT vendors don't read the = fabulous RFC series and there is no logo certification test for NAT = gateways that would require them to pass any conformance tests. Sigh. The situation is not improving with IPv6. We recommend a default simple = firewall, but the IPv6 Ready tests are typically performed with the = firewall disabled. If the firewall were enabled, then many of the tests = would fail. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Mon Feb 8 10:52:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6414F3A7256 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:52:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.041 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.041 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.005, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p8yJQw7U-CVx for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:52:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (Balder-227.Proper.COM [192.245.12.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EFC3A67BD for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o18IrdEW082332 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:53:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:53:38 -0800 To: Jason Livingood , "homegate@ietf.org" From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: [homegate] Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:52:42 -0000 At 10:48 AM -0500 2/8/10, Jason Livingood wrote: >Also, does anyone know what companies some of these vendors may use as a component vendor that supplies key software functionality and so on, that should be invited as well? Please note that that the "key software functionality" that is relevant to Homegate usually has nothing to do with components. The OEMs who supply the vendors you listed are mostly software OEMs, and each prides itself on how flexible they can be with respect to component and hardware design. There are many OEMs in this space; the ones I know of from VPNC's membership include: CerticomFreescale Mocana TeamF1 Wind River --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From mbaugher@cisco.com Mon Feb 8 11:35:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F5628B56A for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:35:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id btWzFhXxSvSh for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93443A6F49 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:35:02 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAPH2b0urR7Ht/2dsb2JhbADBOJczhFQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,431,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="480109045" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Feb 2010 19:36:06 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o18Ja6AA022561; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 19:36:06 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:36:06 -0800 Received: from sjc-mbaugher-87113.cisco.com ([10.19.93.46]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:36:05 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mark Baugher In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:49:39 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <12B9120D-A7B4-46F1-89A2-099685AF7DB1@cisco.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> To: james woodyatt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2010 19:36:05.0619 (UTC) FILETIME=[F4837430:01CAA8F5] Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:35:05 -0000 On Feb 8, 2010, at 10:25 AM, james woodyatt wrote: > On Feb 8, 2010, at 01:05, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: >> On 8 feb 2010, at 8:45, wrote: >>>=20 >>> Bit torrent (which is quite popular in the Nordic countries at = least) is starting to move over to preferring UDP. This is relevant to = NAT and firewall tables within the CPE's. >>=20 >> So it's important to do something reasonable when the translation = tables are full. Both killing long-lived sessions and making new ones = (DNS queries...) impossible is suboptimal. >>=20 >> But in practice there doesn't have to be a big problem, because most = BitTorrent users have a port mapping that allows them to receive = incoming sessions. So if packets matching such a port mapping are = translated without using space in the translation table this isn't an = issue. This may or may not be the way things are currently implemented = in any given implementation, though. >=20 > To protect against the SQL slammer worm, most NAT gateways use = Address-Port Dependent Filtering, not Endpoint Independent filtering. = Despite what the BEHAVE working group recommends. As a result, every = edge representing a UDP flow between an interior host/port and an = exterior host/port consumes a state table record in the NAT. Having a = redirection rule in place doesn't make any difference, because it = doesn't stop consumption of the critical resource: the state table = space. >=20 > There is a reason BEHAVE recommends Endpoint Independent filtering as = well as translation, but sadly, a lot of NAT vendors don't read the = fabulous RFC series and there is no logo certification test for NAT = gateways that would require them to pass any conformance tests. Sigh. >=20 > The situation is not improving with IPv6. We recommend a default = simple firewall, but the IPv6 Ready tests are typically performed with = the firewall disabled. If the firewall were enabled, then many of the = tests would fail. EIF is a 'should' in your document IIRC. When is the simple security = (aka firewall) document going to published? Mark >=20 >=20 > -- > james woodyatt > member of technical staff, communications engineering >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From jhw@apple.com Mon Feb 8 11:41:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87BB93A7261 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:41:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id phTvOvjTwQC5 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:41:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1AEB3A70F5 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:41:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay14.apple.com (relay14.apple.com [17.128.113.52]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D7E8ABD459; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:42:13 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807134-b7cd9ae000001002-3b-4b7069152510 Received: from il0602f-dhcp114.apple.com (il0602f-dhcp114.apple.com [17.206.50.114]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay14.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 4B.B3.04098.519607B4; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:42:13 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: <12B9120D-A7B4-46F1-89A2-099685AF7DB1@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:42:12 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <12B9120D-A7B4-46F1-89A2-099685AF7DB1@cisco.com> To: Mark Baugher X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:41:10 -0000 On Feb 8, 2010, at 10:49, Mark Baugher wrote: > On Feb 8, 2010, at 10:25 AM, james woodyatt wrote: >>=20 >> The situation is not improving with IPv6. We recommend a default = simple firewall, but the IPv6 Ready tests are typically performed with = the firewall disabled. If the firewall were enabled, then many of the = tests would fail. >=20 > EIF is a 'should' in your document IIRC. When is the simple security = (aka firewall) document going to published? I'm still up to my eyeballs in alligators, and I haven't revised to deal = with the most recent round of criticism that came in at Stockholm. = Sigh. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From iljitsch@muada.com Mon Feb 8 11:46:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049DD28C0FA for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:46:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mYa6jk-mE2cN for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:1af8:2:5::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20733A747D for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (static-167-138-7-89.ipcom.comunitel.net [89.7.138.167] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o18JkYXk032423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Feb 2010 20:46:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 20:47:44 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> To: james woodyatt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:46:54 -0000 On 8 feb 2010, at 19:25, james woodyatt wrote: > To protect against the SQL slammer worm, most NAT gateways use = Address-Port Dependent Filtering, not Endpoint Independent filtering. ?? How does that help? > The situation is not improving with IPv6. We recommend a default = simple firewall, but the IPv6 Ready tests are typically performed with = the firewall disabled. If the firewall were enabled, then many of the = tests would fail. I hope they make the IPv6 filtering suck worse than IPv4 filtering ever = sucked. That way, people will turn it off. Iljitsch= From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Mon Feb 8 13:18:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D701D3A73A6 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 13:18:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.19 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.19 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.190, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CrKgVeJ-MXbE for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 13:18:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B621828C0E6 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 13:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.71396232; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:19:17 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 8 Feb 2010 16:19:14 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 21:19:13 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:19:11 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: "Erichsen, Kirk" , "homegate@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting Thread-Index: Acqo1iRcTh61/UbRfkyBmeE1zS1F5AAAIA31AAttrso= In-Reply-To: <8F9F107F1A51524597A5D2E0F43EE96329FC8902A9@PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2010 21:19:14.0424 (UTC) FILETIME=[5D542780:01CAA904] Subject: Re: [homegate] Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:18:19 -0000 I think we're looking to be very inclusive at this point, so we should consider the full range of device manufacturers. If you have recommended Broadcom and TI contacts we could invite, please email me privately. Thanks Jason On 2/8/10 11:07 AM, "Erichsen, Kirk" wrote: > Jason, >=20 > Will the home gateways include models that have embedded modems? If so, = the > answer to your question regarding "component vendors" will differ. For a = cable > modem equipped gateway router, the following will have Broadcom reference > designs: Cisco, Thomson, Netgear, D-Link, Belkin. The following will have= a > Texas Instruments reference design: SMC. >=20 > -KE > ________________________________ > From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Jason > Livingood [jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com] > Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 8:48 AM > To: homegate@ietf.org > Subject: [homegate] Vendor Presentations at Interim Meeting >=20 > Right now we have slots on day two for four different home gateway vendor= s to > present. Perhaps that is too many, we shall see. But we=B9d like to list = out > suggestions for who we should approach. >=20 > So far I have the following =AD please advise if we should add any vendors = to > the candidate list. From this list we can start to reach out to people. = (Even > if they do not present, we should at least invite these companies.) >=20 > In no particular order: > 1 =AD Cisco/Linksys > 2 =AD 2wire > 3 =AD Thompson > 4 =AD Apple > 5 =AD NetGear > 6 =AD D-Link > 7 =AD SMC > 8 - Belkin >=20 > Also, does anyone know what companies some of these vendors may use as a > component vendor that supplies key software functionality and so on, that > should be invited as well? >=20 > Thanks > Jason > This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner > Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, > or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail > is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which > it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this > E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents > of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be > unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify > the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any > copy of this E-mail and any printout. >=20 >=20 From erik.taraldsen@telenor.com Fri Feb 12 02:26:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D4A28C135 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:26:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.059 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.059 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.929, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lSD70HCO83z7 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:26:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from syn.telenor.net (virus-out-st.online.no [193.212.240.200]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03EF28C12C for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tns-fbu-22-248.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.162.18] [134.47.162.18]) by syn.telenor.net with ESMTPS id BT-MMP-555176; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:27:29 +0100 Received: from TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.163.42]) by tns-fbu-22-248.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.162.18]) with mapi; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:27:25 +0100 From: To: , Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:27:24 +0100 Thread-Topic: [homegate] UDP in torrents Thread-Index: Acqo98+tqo3z0UbXQzy6/ry2vm10lAC1VxYe Message-ID: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> Accept-Language: nb-NO Content-Language: nb-NO X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: nb-NO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:26:15 -0000 ________________________________________ Fra: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [homegate-bounces@ietf.org] på vegne av= Iljitsch van Beijnum [iljitsch@muada.com] Sendt: 8. februar 2010 20:47 Til: james woodyatt Kopi: homegate@ietf.org Emne: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents On 8 feb 2010, at 19:25, james woodyatt wrote: > > The situation is not improving with IPv6. We recommend a default simpl= e firewall, but the IPv6 Ready > > tests are typically performed with the firewall disabled. If the firew= all were enabled, then many of the tests would fail. > > I hope they make the IPv6 filtering suck worse than IPv4 filtering ever s= ucked. That way, people will turn it off. This discussion is (as always) going a bit off topic. Here is my contributi= on to the off topicness: Any particular reason for not wanting IPv6 firewall pr default? My gut fee= ling is that the typical mom and dad users would benefit from a firewall. = Techie users could do as they like (firewall off, strict, spesific rules et= c). The mom's and dad's out there would not be able to identify that they = could benefit from a firewall and thus never turning it on. -Erik From iljitsch@muada.com Fri Feb 12 02:30:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43C3A7828 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:30:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RcRz4mL6ss7x for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:1af8:2:5::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64AFF3A74C7 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:720:410:100f:223:32ff:fec4:ba94] ([IPv6:2001:720:410:100f:223:32ff:fec4:ba94]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CAU1r6093332 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:30:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:31:18 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <633ECEFB-8506-401A-8A57-417ED4A28AA0@muada.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:30:12 -0000 On 12 feb 2010, at 11:27, wrote: > Any particular reason for not wanting IPv6 firewall pr default? My = gut feeling is that the typical mom and dad users would benefit from a = firewall. Techie users could do as they like (firewall off, strict, = spesific rules etc). The mom's and dad's out there would not be able to = identify that they could benefit from a firewall and thus never turning = it on. Then why does it say "firewall" on the outside of all these boxes? No, people are scared into wanting firewalls. Unfortunately, most of = them don't realize the harm that firewalls cause so they can't make a = rational tradeoff between the advantages (slim to none) and the = disadvantages (mysteriously breaking applications, more work for people = like us).= From ichiroumakino@gmail.com Fri Feb 12 02:55:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B9B3A68D6 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:55:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.363 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.363 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.236, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zw+kD55kUNSi for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f215.google.com (mail-fx0-f215.google.com [209.85.220.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38A73A6B82 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm7 with SMTP id 7so2455303fxm.28 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:56:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:subject:mime-version :content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=+CpZCb/Lw9g593laiYbKpdK9BXRLfHMngLN90HXY+CA=; b=Y4zOoQhGAubljZY+1u9hkIMa0aSYcNifutd1eeZE2ZIfXAOe6I4WrAPixwZKAl1C9C /r2chUKcmwh5+DpwJGWaTbEcYV+lEwjMqLYyTy6R9KeTQbyplwABnPRYKYHJSrOfcxTL uqQmS8H5DANaqoGOP48XmNiedDXNioOKxpcMc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; b=LL77/y3PHgjW+NQlf2EgvhWiwEy3RQ8QcZjxYs3Y1NRdYsmBYEHv9Wpw+kXHScjSBB lcntptFvaBSo5vNtqi4y5ZsQ7kVnNqalf+ltfVW7vUbFob2B319S3ZPwc08GRSczMoOQ GHl+LesfTDV1nDQu1eTlFXR1PrxZlin8/JxKU= Received: by 10.223.3.137 with SMTP id 9mr1316768fan.49.1265972181856; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.55.160.152? (64-103-25-233.cisco.com [64.103.25.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 14sm1651771fxm.3.2010.02.12.02.56.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:56:20 -0800 (PST) Sender: Ole Troan Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:55:17 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:55:09 -0000 Erik, >>> The situation is not improving with IPv6. We recommend a default = simple firewall, but the IPv6 Ready >>> tests are typically performed with the firewall disabled. If the = firewall were enabled, then many of the tests would fail. >>=20 >> I hope they make the IPv6 filtering suck worse than IPv4 filtering = ever sucked. That way, people will turn it off. >=20 > This discussion is (as always) going a bit off topic. Here is my = contribution to the off topicness: >=20 > Any particular reason for not wanting IPv6 firewall pr default? My = gut feeling is that the typical mom and dad users would benefit from a = firewall. Techie users could do as they like (firewall off, strict, = spesific rules etc). The mom's and dad's out there would not be able to = identify that they could benefit from a firewall and thus never turning = it on. we discussed this quite a bit when we wrote the IPv6 CE router = requirements draft. with modern IPv6 stack (and by definition almost all of them are) what = benefits do a firewall by default give me? and I'm not trying to be obnoxious I can think of all the disadvantages, = but I have a really hard time seeing what I need a firewall for... = perhaps I'd like IPS, but a vanilla firewall? cheers, Ole= From erik.taraldsen@telenor.com Fri Feb 12 03:00:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88E1F28C19A for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:00:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.465, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p70ejVkvJRQ5 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ull.telenor.net (virus-out-st.online.no [193.212.240.200]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C8E828C18B for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from tns-fbu-22-250.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.162.19] [134.47.162.19]) by ull.telenor.net with ESMTPS id BT-MMP-137064; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:01:37 +0100 Received: from TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.163.42]) by tns-fbu-22-250.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.162.19]) with mapi; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:01:37 +0100 From: To: Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:01:36 +0100 Thread-Topic: SV: [homegate] UDP in torrents Thread-Index: Acqrzq1yhWe9NuaVTCqFBaSjx7Rk2AAAiFdS Message-ID: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298EC@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no>, <633ECEFB-8506-401A-8A57-417ED4A28AA0@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <633ECEFB-8506-401A-8A57-417ED4A28AA0@muada.com> Accept-Language: nb-NO Content-Language: nb-NO X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: nb-NO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:00:23 -0000 ________________________________________ Fra: Iljitsch van Beijnum [iljitsch@muada.com] > No, people are scared into wanting firewalls. Unfortunately, most of them= don't realize the=20 > harm that firewalls cause so they can't make a rational tradeoff between = the advantages=20 > (slim to none) and the disadvantages (mysteriously breaking applications,= more work for people like us). I agree that there is some issues sourounding firewalls and breaking apps. = Sure. Absolutely. =20 But I dissagree on your opinion of "slim to none" on the advantages. Telen= or operates in different markets as an ISP. One market has in the past had= a bridge solution for the end users. No NAT, no firewall. The other major= marked has used a FW/NAT solution pr default. The bridge market had 10 ti= mes the virus traffic compared to the FW/NAT marked even though beeing half= the size. So a rough guestimate indicates that you are 20 times more like= ly to have a virus if you don't have a propper firewall. (DPI statistics f= rom border/core). This might change when IPv6 is dominant, but for now I'm voteing for firewa= lls. -Erik From iljitsch@muada.com Fri Feb 12 03:09:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017DA28C141 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:09:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QoZjONDf96xf for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:09:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:1af8:2:5::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD3D3A72B6 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:720:410:100f:223:32ff:fec4:ba94] ([IPv6:2001:720:410:100f:223:32ff:fec4:ba94]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CB9Tc1093616 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:09:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298EC@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:10:46 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7007219C-01A8-4265-A6BD-8736C5D3B227@muada.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no>, <633ECEFB-8506-401A-8A57-417ED4A28AA0@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298EC@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:09:34 -0000 On 12 feb 2010, at 12:01, wrote: > The bridge market had 10 times the virus traffic compared to the = FW/NAT marked even though beeing half the size. So a rough guestimate = indicates that you are 20 times more likely to have a virus if you don't = have a propper firewall. Unless I'm mistaken there is no longer new malware that uses open ports = as an attack vector. An issue with bridging could also be ARP poisoning and then traffic = interception, for instance for the purpose of DNS spoofing. > This might change when IPv6 is dominant, but for now I'm voteing for = firewalls. We're talking about IPv6, because firewalls in home gateways are very = rare for IPv4, unless you count NAT as firewalling.= From erik.taraldsen@telenor.com Fri Feb 12 03:21:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB9F3A7228 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:21:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.310, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rH54HDkN7uca for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from syn.telenor.net (virus-out-st.online.no [193.212.240.200]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8B6E3A7162 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from tns-fbu-22-250.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.162.19] [134.47.162.19]) by syn.telenor.net with ESMTPS id BT-MMP-575784; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:22:31 +0100 Received: from TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.163.42]) by tns-fbu-22-250.corp.telenor.no ([134.47.162.19]) with mapi; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:22:29 +0100 From: To: Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:22:28 +0100 Thread-Topic: SV: SV: [homegate] UDP in torrents Thread-Index: Acqr1C9oUb0iYa/4SWqiCG/AiBr6OgAAF4ks Message-ID: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298ED@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no>, <633ECEFB-8506-401A-8A57-417ED4A28AA0@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298EC@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no>, <7007219C-01A8-4265-A6BD-8736C5D3B227@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <7007219C-01A8-4265-A6BD-8736C5D3B227@muada.com> Accept-Language: nb-NO Content-Language: nb-NO X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: nb-NO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:21:18 -0000 ________________________________________ Fra: Iljitsch van Beijnum [iljitsch@muada.com] Sendt: 12. februar 2010 12:10 Til: Taraldsen Erik (Fixed) Kopi: homegate@ietf.org Emne: Re: SV: SV: [homegate] UDP in torrents > Unless I'm mistaken there is no longer new malware that uses open ports a= s an attack vector. My numbers are aprox two years old, so they may not represent todays situat= ion. But is it not possible that those kind of attacs may resurface if giv= en the opertunity? I.e. the ISP stop provideing NAT/FW to the end users? > We're talking about IPv6, because firewalls in home gateways are very rar= e for IPv4, unless you count NAT as firewalling. The situation may be different in the market you and I operate, but in the = nordics I have not seen a nat home gateway since 2003 which did not also in= clude a full statefull firewall. From iljitsch@muada.com Fri Feb 12 03:57:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104303A7827 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:57:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dfdhItU0VdHz for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:1af8:2:5::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F173328C0D8 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:720:410:100f:223:32ff:fec4:ba94] ([IPv6:2001:720:410:100f:223:32ff:fec4:ba94]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CBv0AX093903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:57:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298ED@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:58:17 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no>, <633ECEFB-8506-401A-8A57-417ED4A28AA0@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298EC@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no>, <7007219C-01A8-4265-A6BD-8736C5D3B227@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298ED@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:57:05 -0000 On 12 feb 2010, at 12:22, wrote: >> Unless I'm mistaken there is no longer new malware that uses open = ports as an attack vector. > My numbers are aprox two years old, so they may not represent todays = situation. But is it not possible that those kind of attacs may = resurface if given the opertunity? Operating systems need to be able to operate securely in an environment = where others can connect to the machine, for instance with a 3G = connection or when connected to a wifi hotspot. As such the situation = where Windows would open up all kinds of insecure protocols by default = isn't likely to return. From mbaugher@cisco.com Fri Feb 12 05:08:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9DB3A768E for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:08:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oWXyauDzlqU9 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:08:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA53F3A7620 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:08:29 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAD3idEurRN+K/2dsb2JhbACbAnSnNJdIhFgEgxM X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,460,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="150456605" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2010 13:09:47 +0000 Received: from sjc-mbaugher-87113.cisco.com (sjc-mbaugher-87113.cisco.com [10.19.93.46]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1CD9kA4026587; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:09:47 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mark Baugher In-Reply-To: <7007219C-01A8-4265-A6BD-8736C5D3B227@muada.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:09:46 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <776F8373-C373-4E16-8F8F-C21BDBF20C6B@cisco.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no>, <633ECEFB-8506-401A-8A57-417ED4A28AA0@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298EC@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <7007219C-01A8-4265-A6BD-8736C5D3B227@muada.com> To: Iljitsch van Beijnum X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:08:31 -0000 On Feb 12, 2010, at 3:10 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 12 feb 2010, at 12:01, wrote: >=20 >> The bridge market had 10 times the virus traffic compared to the = FW/NAT marked even though beeing half the size. So a rough guestimate = indicates that you are 20 times more likely to have a virus if you don't = have a propper firewall. >=20 > Unless I'm mistaken there is no longer new malware that uses open = ports as an attack vector. http://www.cert-in.org.in/virus/win32_conficker.htm >=20 > An issue with bridging could also be ARP poisoning and then traffic = interception, for instance for the purpose of DNS spoofing. >=20 >> This might change when IPv6 is dominant, but for now I'm voteing for = firewalls. >=20 > We're talking about IPv6, because firewalls in home gateways are very = rare for IPv4, unless you count NAT as firewalling. Yes, there is a firewall in front of the NAT, which has the side effect = of opening a pinhole when a NAT port mapping is installed. Mark > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From jhw@apple.com Fri Feb 12 10:42:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A08E3A78D8 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:42:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LmHzBWsB4cJJ for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A883A78D7 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay15.apple.com (relay15.apple.com [17.128.113.54]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208BB8B9F6D5 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:43:23 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807136-b7bafae000000e8d-f4-4b75a149c95f Received: from [17.151.76.64] (Unknown_Domain [17.151.76.64]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay15.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id C7.76.03725.A41A57B4; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:43:23 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:43:20 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> To: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:42:04 -0000 On Feb 12, 2010, at 02:55, Ole Troan wrote: >=20 > and I'm not trying to be obnoxious I can think of all the = disadvantages, but I have a really hard time seeing what I need a = firewall for... perhaps I'd like IPS, but a vanilla firewall? That should be fairly obvious, but you almost never see anyone explain = it in simple terms. Residential gateway simple security doesn't actually do much to stop = botnets and other malware, c.f. the ubiquity of both residential = IPv4/NAT firewalls and the vast numbers of compromised hosts behind = them. Being modeled on the behavior of IPv4/NAT, IPv6 simple security = won't be any different in this regard. The essential purpose of residential gateway firewalls is actually to = prevent hosts located behind the firewall from participating efficiently = in peer-to-peer applications without the assistance of easily identified = and attacked rendezvous services located outside the firewall. They = strongly encourage people to run only those applications that = communicate primarily with server pools in fixed data centers operated = by medium to large enterprises, and they discourage people from running = frivolous applications that communicate mainly with large networks of = peers located primarily behind other residential gateways. You know: = things that service providers can't use to extract additional revenues, = and must therefore treat as network abuse, e.g. torrents. Summarizing: why do you need a residential firewall? To make sure the = residents only use your network in ways that allow you to get a piece of = the charges for application service. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From richard@bennett.com Fri Feb 12 10:53:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED7DE3A7870 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.161 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id th38QF87P17b for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ans51.midphase.com (unknown [69.4.229.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C003A7843 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from c-24-5-230-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([24.5.230.26] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by ans51.midphase.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ng0fX-00022F-Tt for homegate@ietf.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:55:12 -0600 Message-ID: <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:55:00 -0800 From: Richard Bennett User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homegate@ietf.org References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ans51.midphase.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bennett.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:53:54 -0000 Leaving aside the nefarious motives of profit-seeking network operators to protect ollywood's intellectual property for the moment, the main reason that most unskilled users should have a firewall is the relative insecurity of the default setup of Microsoft home networking. It's common for home networks to offer printers and shares without passwords, or with weak passwords, and the default sharing mode for Windows Media Player is probably flaky as well. Firewalls hide these things from casual attackers. Botnets relentlessly probe first mile networks for exposed ports and vulnerabilities. It's wise to have multiple lines of defense because everybody's software has bugs, even when users follow best practices. RB On 2/12/2010 10:43 AM, james woodyatt wrote: > On Feb 12, 2010, at 02:55, Ole Troan wrote: > >> and I'm not trying to be obnoxious I can think of all the disadvantages, but I have a really hard time seeing what I need a firewall for... perhaps I'd like IPS, but a vanilla firewall? >> > That should be fairly obvious, but you almost never see anyone explain it in simple terms. > > Residential gateway simple security doesn't actually do much to stop botnets and other malware, c.f. the ubiquity of both residential IPv4/NAT firewalls and the vast numbers of compromised hosts behind them. Being modeled on the behavior of IPv4/NAT, IPv6 simple security won't be any different in this regard. > > The essential purpose of residential gateway firewalls is actually to prevent hosts located behind the firewall from participating efficiently in peer-to-peer applications without the assistance of easily identified and attacked rendezvous services located outside the firewall. They strongly encourage people to run only those applications that communicate primarily with server pools in fixed data centers operated by medium to large enterprises, and they discourage people from running frivolous applications that communicate mainly with large networks of peers located primarily behind other residential gateways. You know: things that service providers can't use to extract additional revenues, and must therefore treat as network abuse, e.g. torrents. > > Summarizing: why do you need a residential firewall? To make sure the residents only use your network in ways that allow you to get a piece of the charges for application service. > > > -- > james woodyatt > member of technical staff, communications engineering > > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > -- Richard Bennett Research Fellow Information Technology and Innovation Foundation Washington, DC From iljitsch@muada.com Fri Feb 12 11:01:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A59BA3A7874 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:01:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tycjpzt484ry for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:1af8:2:5::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCBF83A786E for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (static-167-138-7-89.ipcom.comunitel.net [89.7.138.167] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CJ1cBe001589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:01:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:02:51 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> To: Richard Bennett X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:01:48 -0000 On 12 feb 2010, at 19:55, Richard Bennett wrote: > is the relative insecurity of the default setup of Microsoft home = networking. Still, after how things blew up in their faces in the early 2000s? > Botnets relentlessly probe first mile networks for exposed ports and = vulnerabilities. Good luck with than on IPv6. > It's wise to have multiple lines of defense because everybody's = software has bugs, That is orthogonal to the issue. If a user runs a service, the user = wants the service to be reachable, exposing bugs, if any. If the user = doesn't want to run a service, the service shouldn't be reachable, so = bugs aren't exposed. The "crunchy outside, soft inside" approach to local networking doesn't = work for mobile devices such as laptops, and all common operating = systems also run on mobile devices. Every host must be able to hold its = own against the big bad world.= From jhw@apple.com Fri Feb 12 11:05:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73643A7736 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:05:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mrMdCIfBEN9W for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1235C3A785D for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay13.apple.com (relay13.apple.com [17.128.113.29]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D5B8BA0A41 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:06:44 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 1180711d-b7b18ae000001001-ed-4b75a6c3682e Received: from [17.151.76.64] (Unknown_Domain [17.151.76.64]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay13.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id EE.A9.04097.4C6A57B4; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:06:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:06:43 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <78EC2112-949A-48EC-B340-E95A4A743987@apple.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> To: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:05:25 -0000 On Feb 12, 2010, at 10:55, Richard Bennett wrote: >=20 > Leaving aside the nefarious motives of profit-seeking network = operators. I would be very careful not to describe the motives of service providers = to engineer traffic on their networks as nefarious. > Botnets relentlessly probe first mile networks for exposed ports and = vulnerabilities. The simple security regime modeled on IPv4/NAT is neither necessary to = stop worms from propagating through network-layer vulnerability probing, = c.f. RFC 4864, nor sufficient to stop malware of all sorts from = propagating through trojans and application layer viruses, c.f. the vast = numbers of compromised hosts. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From richard@bennett.com Fri Feb 12 11:05:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2FE28C1C9 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:05:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.161 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vBsknN5vWzTh for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ans51.midphase.com (unknown [69.4.229.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A30428C190 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from c-24-5-230-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([24.5.230.26] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by ans51.midphase.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ng0qp-0006uD-RG; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:06:51 -0600 Message-ID: <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:06:40 -0800 From: Richard Bennett User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ans51.midphase.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bennett.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:05:33 -0000 In the real world, Iljitsch, home networks are not maintained by IETF participants, they're configured by somebody who knows just enough to create a share and nothing at all about security. Default gateway configurations should work for people with the default level of knowledge and the default crappy OS. On 2/12/2010 11:02 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 12 feb 2010, at 19:55, Richard Bennett wrote: > > >> is the relative insecurity of the default setup of Microsoft home networking. >> > Still, after how things blew up in their faces in the early 2000s? > > >> Botnets relentlessly probe first mile networks for exposed ports and vulnerabilities. >> > Good luck with than on IPv6. > > >> It's wise to have multiple lines of defense because everybody's software has bugs, >> > That is orthogonal to the issue. If a user runs a service, the user wants the service to be reachable, exposing bugs, if any. If the user doesn't want to run a service, the service shouldn't be reachable, so bugs aren't exposed. > > The "crunchy outside, soft inside" approach to local networking doesn't work for mobile devices such as laptops, and all common operating systems also run on mobile devices. Every host must be able to hold its own against the big bad world. -- Richard Bennett Research Fellow Information Technology and Innovation Foundation Washington, DC From iljitsch@muada.com Fri Feb 12 11:09:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8922F3A786E for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:09:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2U13sRzfQ6w6 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:1af8:2:5::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8618E3A784F for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (static-167-138-7-89.ipcom.comunitel.net [89.7.138.167] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CJ9R0q002473 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:09:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:10:41 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> To: Richard Bennett X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:09:40 -0000 On 12 feb 2010, at 20:06, Richard Bennett wrote: > Default gateway configurations should work for people with the default = level of knowledge and the default crappy OS. Which OSes are we talking about? People aren't going to run IPv6 on XP = SP1. Probably very few of them will run IPv6 on Windows XP of any kind. = I assume and hope that Vista and 7 (and of course all non-win OSes) are = not crappy in this regard. The price of real security is already too high, let alone the price of = imaginary security.= From kirk.erichsen@twcable.com Fri Feb 12 11:09:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624703A784F for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:09:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gXemrAVrbIQX for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from cdpipgw01.twcable.com (cdpipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.59.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 793193A786B for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:09:40 -0800 (PST) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.10 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,462,1262581200"; d="scan'208";a="47632176" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB01.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.10]) by cdpipgw01.twcable.com with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2010 14:10:59 -0500 Received: from PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.38]) by PRVPEXHUB01.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.10]) with mapi; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:10:59 -0500 From: "Erichsen, Kirk" To: james woodyatt , "homegate@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:10:58 -0500 Thread-Topic: [homegate] UDP in torrents Thread-Index: AcqsE0N1Kltd1UtIRjW5vbDOyMxcBQAAbzGD Message-ID: <8F9F107F1A51524597A5D2E0F43EE96329FC8902D5@PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:09:41 -0000 There is nothing which precludes an SP from defining, in agonizing detail, = exactly how they wish for a firewall to behave for a given application. Thi= s may not be the right forum to define what could quickly morph into what a= mounts to a product spec. If the goal is a common set of functionality, per= haps it will suffice to simply describe a common scenario in which a firewa= ll might be present and how it could behave, but without making requirement= declarations.=20 It's my view we can probably avoid defining the firewall and harm nothing. = The inverse case is a slippery slope and even if we excericse some modicum = of restraint and caution tends to have operational, performance, hardware a= nd cost impacts that are predicated on certain assumptions that may not be = universally held. I'd prefer to see us stay out of the SPI firewall weeds i= f at all possible. -KE ________________________________________ From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ja= mes woodyatt [jhw@apple.com] Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 11:43 AM To: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents On Feb 12, 2010, at 02:55, Ole Troan wrote: > > and I'm not trying to be obnoxious I can think of all the disadvantages, = but I have a really hard time seeing what I need a firewall for... perhaps = I'd like IPS, but a vanilla firewall? That should be fairly obvious, but you almost never see anyone explain it i= n simple terms. Residential gateway simple security doesn't actually do much to stop botnet= s and other malware, c.f. the ubiquity of both residential IPv4/NAT firewal= ls and the vast numbers of compromised hosts behind them. Being modeled on= the behavior of IPv4/NAT, IPv6 simple security won't be any different in t= his regard. The essential purpose of residential gateway firewalls is actually to preve= nt hosts located behind the firewall from participating efficiently in peer= -to-peer applications without the assistance of easily identified and attac= ked rendezvous services located outside the firewall. They strongly encour= age people to run only those applications that communicate primarily with s= erver pools in fixed data centers operated by medium to large enterprises, = and they discourage people from running frivolous applications that communi= cate mainly with large networks of peers located primarily behind other res= idential gateways. You know: things that service providers can't use to ex= tract additional revenues, and must therefore treat as network abuse, e.g. = torrents. Summarizing: why do you need a residential firewall? To make sure the resi= dents only use your network in ways that allow you to get a piece of the ch= arges for application service. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering _______________________________________________ homegate mailing list homegate@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. From richard@bennett.com Fri Feb 12 11:14:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C703A78E1 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:14:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.161 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8GHBprMXu72X for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ans51.midphase.com (unknown [69.4.229.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7373A786E for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from c-24-5-230-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([24.5.230.26] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by ans51.midphase.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ng0yz-0001ng-Vn for homegate@ietf.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:15:18 -0600 Message-ID: <4B75A8BA.4080303@bennett.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:15:06 -0800 From: Richard Bennett User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homegate@ietf.org References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <8F9F107F1A51524597A5D2E0F43EE96329FC8902D5@PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com> In-Reply-To: <8F9F107F1A51524597A5D2E0F43EE96329FC8902D5@PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ans51.midphase.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bennett.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:14:05 -0000 Every carrier spec for a home gateway I've ever seen (and I've seen most of them) has a firewall requirement, and I don't see IPv6 changing that. RB On 2/12/2010 11:10 AM, Erichsen, Kirk wrote: > There is nothing which precludes an SP from defining, in agonizing detail, exactly how they wish for a firewall to behave for a given application. This may not be the right forum to define what could quickly morph into what amounts to a product spec. If the goal is a common set of functionality, perhaps it will suffice to simply describe a common scenario in which a firewall might be present and how it could behave, but without making requirement declarations. > > It's my view we can probably avoid defining the firewall and harm nothing. The inverse case is a slippery slope and even if we excericse some modicum of restraint and caution tends to have operational, performance, hardware and cost impacts that are predicated on certain assumptions that may not be universally held. I'd prefer to see us stay out of the SPI firewall weeds if at all possible. > > -KE > > ________________________________________ > From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of james woodyatt [jhw@apple.com] > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 11:43 AM > To: homegate@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents > > On Feb 12, 2010, at 02:55, Ole Troan wrote: > >> and I'm not trying to be obnoxious I can think of all the disadvantages, but I have a really hard time seeing what I need a firewall for... perhaps I'd like IPS, but a vanilla firewall? >> > That should be fairly obvious, but you almost never see anyone explain it in simple terms. > > Residential gateway simple security doesn't actually do much to stop botnets and other malware, c.f. the ubiquity of both residential IPv4/NAT firewalls and the vast numbers of compromised hosts behind them. Being modeled on the behavior of IPv4/NAT, IPv6 simple security won't be any different in this regard. > > The essential purpose of residential gateway firewalls is actually to prevent hosts located behind the firewall from participating efficiently in peer-to-peer applications without the assistance of easily identified and attacked rendezvous services located outside the firewall. They strongly encourage people to run only those applications that communicate primarily with server pools in fixed data centers operated by medium to large enterprises, and they discourage people from running frivolous applications that communicate mainly with large networks of peers located primarily behind other residential gateways. You know: things that service providers can't use to extract additional revenues, and must therefore treat as network abuse, e.g. torrents. > > Summarizing: why do you need a residential firewall? To make sure the residents only use your network in ways that allow you to get a piece of the charges for application service. > > > -- > james woodyatt > member of technical staff, communications engineering > > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner > Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, > or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail > is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which > it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this > E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents > of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be > unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify > the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any > copy of this E-mail and any printout. > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > -- Richard Bennett Research Fellow Information Technology and Innovation Foundation Washington, DC From iljitsch@muada.com Fri Feb 12 11:14:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ECFA3A786B for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:14:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.554 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hBjqsrSLCEi8 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:14:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:1af8:2:5::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D7F3A78E7 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (static-167-138-7-89.ipcom.comunitel.net [89.7.138.167] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CJEOCL002553 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:14:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: <8F9F107F1A51524597A5D2E0F43EE96329FC8902D5@PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:15:37 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <866D0BA6-6D21-474A-A086-5C02A90B8B14@muada.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <8F9F107F1A51524597A5D2E0F43EE96329FC8902D5@PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com> To: "Erichsen, Kirk" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: "homegate@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:14:36 -0000 On 12 feb 2010, at 20:10, Erichsen, Kirk wrote: > It's my view we can probably avoid defining the firewall and harm = nothing. The inverse case is a slippery slope and even if we excericse = some modicum of restraint and caution tends to have operational, = performance, hardware and cost impacts The problem is that various statements from within the IETF have been = construed to mean that IPv6 home gateways SHOULD have a stateful = firewall. Even more so than NAT, which breaks stuff by accident, = firewalls, which break stuff on purpose, have the potential to be = incredibly harmful when they misbehave. As such, it's important to = specify what they should do, or rather, what they shouldn't do. Unfortunately James' efforts to create a document that does exactly this = haven't met with smooth progress. From mbaugher@cisco.com Fri Feb 12 11:28:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5C93A78EC for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:28:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pLeMWJ5tOlBO for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:28:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5173A7880 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:28:46 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAAc7dUurR7H+/2dsb2JhbACbAXSoCZdNgkyCDASDEw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,462,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="87564845" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2010 19:30:05 +0000 Received: from sjc-mbaugher-87113.cisco.com (sjc-mbaugher-87113.cisco.com [10.19.93.46]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1CJU5SG004689; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:30:05 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mark Baugher In-Reply-To: <4B75A8BA.4080303@bennett.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:30:04 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <69816608-E14E-4C08-B5BD-9EB02904D241@cisco.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> , <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <8F9F107F1A51524597A5D2E0F43EE96329FC8902D5@PRVPEXVS09.corp.twcable.com> <4B75A8BA.4080303@bennett.com> To: Richard Bennett X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:28:47 -0000 This is the real point. We can debate the technical considerations all = we want. At the end of the day, no vendor is going to ship a retail = gateway product without a firewall enabled by default. I find the pros = and cons interesting, but the real question is how to open pinholes. = NAT-PMP and UPnP NAT Traversal do it for IPv4. Something will = undoubtedly be needed for IPv6.=20 Mark On Feb 12, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Richard Bennett wrote: > Every carrier spec for a home gateway I've ever seen (and I've seen = most of them) has a firewall requirement, and I don't see IPv6 changing = that. >=20 > RB >=20 > On 2/12/2010 11:10 AM, Erichsen, Kirk wrote: >> There is nothing which precludes an SP from defining, in agonizing = detail, exactly how they wish for a firewall to behave for a given = application. This may not be the right forum to define what could = quickly morph into what amounts to a product spec. If the goal is a = common set of functionality, perhaps it will suffice to simply describe = a common scenario in which a firewall might be present and how it could = behave, but without making requirement declarations. >>=20 >> It's my view we can probably avoid defining the firewall and harm = nothing. The inverse case is a slippery slope and even if we excericse = some modicum of restraint and caution tends to have operational, = performance, hardware and cost impacts that are predicated on certain = assumptions that may not be universally held. I'd prefer to see us stay = out of the SPI firewall weeds if at all possible. >>=20 >> -KE >>=20 >> ________________________________________ >> From: homegate-bounces@ietf.org [homegate-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of james woodyatt [jhw@apple.com] >> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 11:43 AM >> To: homegate@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents >>=20 >> On Feb 12, 2010, at 02:55, Ole Troan wrote: >> =20 >>> and I'm not trying to be obnoxious I can think of all the = disadvantages, but I have a really hard time seeing what I need a = firewall for... perhaps I'd like IPS, but a vanilla firewall? >>> =20 >> That should be fairly obvious, but you almost never see anyone = explain it in simple terms. >>=20 >> Residential gateway simple security doesn't actually do much to stop = botnets and other malware, c.f. the ubiquity of both residential = IPv4/NAT firewalls and the vast numbers of compromised hosts behind = them. Being modeled on the behavior of IPv4/NAT, IPv6 simple security = won't be any different in this regard. >>=20 >> The essential purpose of residential gateway firewalls is actually to = prevent hosts located behind the firewall from participating efficiently = in peer-to-peer applications without the assistance of easily identified = and attacked rendezvous services located outside the firewall. They = strongly encourage people to run only those applications that = communicate primarily with server pools in fixed data centers operated = by medium to large enterprises, and they discourage people from running = frivolous applications that communicate mainly with large networks of = peers located primarily behind other residential gateways. You know: = things that service providers can't use to extract additional revenues, = and must therefore treat as network abuse, e.g. torrents. >>=20 >> Summarizing: why do you need a residential firewall? To make sure = the residents only use your network in ways that allow you to get a = piece of the charges for application service. >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> james woodyatt >> member of technical staff, communications engineering >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> homegate mailing list >> homegate@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate >> This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner >> Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, >> or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail >> is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which >> it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this >> E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, >> distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents >> of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be >> unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify >> the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any >> copy of this E-mail and any printout. >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> homegate mailing list >> homegate@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate >> =20 >=20 > --=20 > Richard Bennett > Research Fellow > Information Technology and Innovation Foundation > Washington, DC >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From martyf@gmail.com Fri Feb 12 12:08:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90093A78F6 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:08:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B8NFQDbDQmGy for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:08:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f228.google.com (mail-bw0-f228.google.com [209.85.218.228]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40553A74EB for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz28 with SMTP id 28so2385952bwz.14 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:09:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=HedlWunCaQDcBfzDxWuF8M93iGHp3H0Izo3F0YZDaIQ=; b=L4XKEtnPPTEKBZN57QhYnSl9qSZBZSbi4KmfVEKPBLNY9Y8CsONSh6Luf2faSuUZ8K k0w+sEE+Zpyv4UTEjGRRZMtxum7qE6zDtadJRY7O6rd8Pvhk6TjLmJ/g3RTex3doo/4H 84xo8dXz5SYM4AuRT6PtGbDoziB6byabCSo2Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=XSDfkcS+JccjkNuzNJxsID358Eo//zFoxo3Tn0rQSLSr5utuj0vZP7i4PSU35d/ENZ tI+nfeNZW6A1ROxJQp0VsuPexcIE1S0afLJPY4UpmRX4vhxEa+eHbBm+9xOhCyM1W9ju TPbFdduZQaoST2rRCL6tcxVjaKQtgavH2LIgc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.5.213 with SMTP id 21mr1180108bkw.66.1266005395404; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:09:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> From: Martin Focazio Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:09:35 -0500 Message-ID: <6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> To: Richard Bennett Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517588b34e079da047f6cd94f Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:08:40 -0000 --001517588b34e079da047f6cd94f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Richard Bennett wrote: > In the real world, Iljitsch, home networks are not maintained by IETF > participants, they're configured by somebody who knows just enough to create > a share and nothing at all about security. Default gateway configurations > should work for people with the default level of knowledge and the default > crappy OS. > A wholehearted endorsement of this stance. IETF folks are smart, and are well versed in the concepts and practices of networking. IETF folks are a tiny minority of the potential users of an IPv6 residential gateway. Consider for a moment how many open WiFi access points you can find in any given apartment building Consider for a moment how often you encounter unpatched systems among friends and family. Think about the security practices of ordinary computer users. Now, consider for a moment the utter absurdity of insisting that these same people - the ones who can't seem to manage to remember the password for their email accounts - are expected to make sure each device connected to their shiny new IPV6 wonder-box is - as a peer device on the big bad internet - adequately protected. That is a crazy idea. A firewall is a must, from day 1. --001517588b34e079da047f6cd94f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Richard Bennett <richard@bennett.com> wrote= :
In the real world, Iljitsch, home networks are not maintained by IETF parti= cipants, they're configured by somebody who knows just enough to create= a share and nothing at all about security. =A0Default gateway configuratio= ns should work for people with the default level of knowledge and the defau= lt crappy OS.

A wholehearted endorsement of this stance.

IE= TF folks are smart, and are well versed in the concepts and practices of ne= tworking. IETF folks are a tiny minority of the potential users of an IPv6 = residential gateway.

Consider for a moment how many open WiFi access points you can find in = any given apartment building Consider for a moment how often you encounter = unpatched systems among friends and family. Think about the security practi= ces of ordinary computer users.

Now, consider for a moment the utter absurdity of insisting that these = same people - the ones who can't seem to manage to remember the passwor= d for their email accounts - are expected to make sure each device connecte= d to their shiny new IPV6 wonder-box is - as a peer device on the big bad i= nternet - adequately protected. That is a crazy idea.
A firewall is a must, from day 1.

=A0
--001517588b34e079da047f6cd94f-- From oran@cisco.com Fri Feb 12 12:16:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111B43A78FC for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:16:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.105, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9kbe3T-oTeXG for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D993A78F7 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:16:15 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAEZGdUurR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACbAXSnfIpMjQCCZ4FxBIMT X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,463,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="298801588" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2010 20:17:32 +0000 Received: from [10.32.245.155] (stealth-10-32-245-155.cisco.com [10.32.245.155]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1CKHV8N000033 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:17:32 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: David R Oran In-Reply-To: <6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:17:25 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8F360280-038A-4178-B5B8-F725ECA32121@cisco.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> <6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> To: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:16:16 -0000 On Feb 12, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Martin Focazio wrote: > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Richard Bennett = wrote: > In the real world, Iljitsch, home networks are not maintained by IETF = participants, they're configured by somebody who knows just enough to = create a share and nothing at all about security. Default gateway = configurations should work for people with the default level of = knowledge and the default crappy OS. >=20 > A wholehearted endorsement of this stance.=20 >=20 > IETF folks are smart, and are well versed in the concepts and = practices of networking. IETF folks are a tiny minority of the potential = users of an IPv6 residential gateway.=20 >=20 > Consider for a moment how many open WiFi access points you can find in = any given apartment building With the open wifi network right in the chewy center behind the crunchy = firewall that's supposed to help? > Consider for a moment how often you encounter unpatched systems among = friends and family. Think about the security practices of ordinary = computer users.=20 >=20 > Now, consider for a moment the utter absurdity of insisting that these = same people - the ones who can't seem to manage to remember the password = for their email accounts - are expected to make sure each device = connected to their shiny new IPV6 wonder-box is - as a peer device on = the big bad internet - adequately protected. That is a crazy idea.=20 > A firewall is a must, from day 1.=20 >=20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From iljitsch@muada.com Fri Feb 12 12:16:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CC883A78FC for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:16:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.557 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.557 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fIekAZYx5kyQ for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:1af8:2:5::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DBCE3A78F6 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.11] (static-167-138-7-89.ipcom.comunitel.net [89.7.138.167] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1CKGZG4002985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:16:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: <6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:17:47 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <27A8D8F5-411E-4B1E-AE68-2B3FAD684F58@muada.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> <6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> To: Martin Focazio X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:16:37 -0000 On 12 feb 2010, at 21:09, Martin Focazio wrote: > Consider for a moment how many open WiFi access points you can find in = any given apartment building Consider for a moment how often you = encounter unpatched systems among friends and family. Think about the = security practices of ordinary computer users.=20 > Now, consider for a moment the utter absurdity of insisting that these = same people - the ones who can't seem to manage to remember the password = for their email accounts - are expected to make sure each device = connected to their shiny new IPV6 wonder-box is - as a peer device on = the big bad internet - adequately protected. That is a crazy idea.=20 > A firewall is a must, from day 1.=20 =46rom the same base principles, I reach the exact opposite conclusion. = Exactly because so many networks are open, an approach that requires = networks to be closed is doomed to failure. And exactly because we can't = expect users to reconfigure their home gateway, it is paramount that it = comes out of the box in a state that allows applications to work. Which = means that incoming sessions must be supported for peer-to-peer = applications. The simplest way to do that is to have no firewall at all, = because as we saw re open networks, hosts much be able to fend for = themselves anyway. But if the marketing people insist that they can't sell a device without = the word "firewall" on the box we need to make things such that despite = any firewalling going on, the peer-to-peer apps still work.= From martyf@gmail.com Fri Feb 12 12:33:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D44028C1CA for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:33:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xKaWgqVZGyiF for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:33:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bw0-f228.google.com (mail-bw0-f228.google.com [209.85.218.228]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53ED3A757E for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by bwz28 with SMTP id 28so2402755bwz.14 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:34:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=ucD+kmtfLxC2yHXnXXjnw61hsWgW/PxFy2d+QykQczE=; b=fdhKJzZtkYUp7djQTxICwV2EtZF0dxRTyg3Y73Yn4eszUgfKl/Kfwdbe6od5BALxNe c1zWJ65fRcjxlh4Io6rUEXkWfLJam6bdy7h7pO7uUXri8HV6VPogbvbjZ8UOrBsUi3cV Du96mqg19nx3GQY4hSOrQURXeBnmnC2MHpVQM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=dPWg6v9sEGEM/HXXUKpyi1t/PkybiUhRHIr92ikWksu9WgK9MKt58Si/Y7E/d1tFZW tNkyvNPexU1+9W/53GSPjsiSb3WpPXKnZFeRpGHmzPfsnONifihqxh/LiNiOL4hMC4xB tlMfodckV+hoRPeIrP4Fcvfh7xATm5tnHZt/Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.33.216 with SMTP id i24mr1141162bkd.154.1266006860097; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:34:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <27A8D8F5-411E-4B1E-AE68-2B3FAD684F58@muada.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> <6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> <27A8D8F5-411E-4B1E-AE68-2B3FAD684F58@muada.com> From: Martin Focazio Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:34:00 -0500 Message-ID: <6eae86941002121234s24e0f54qf16198c6d34c7f57@mail.gmail.com> To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022154017a22de977047f6d31b8 Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:33:05 -0000 --0022154017a22de977047f6d31b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > From the same base principles, I reach the exact opposite conclusion. > Exactly because so many networks are open, an approach that requires > networks to be closed is doomed to failure. And exactly because we can't > expect users to reconfigure their home gateway, it is paramount that it > comes out of the box in a state that allows applications to work. Which > means that incoming sessions must be supported for peer-to-peer > applications. The simplest way to do that is to have no firewall at all, > because as we saw re open networks, hosts much be able to fend for > themselves anyway. > > But if the marketing people insist that they can't sell a device without > the word "firewall" on the box we need to make things such that despite any > firewalling going on, the peer-to-peer apps still work. I see your point. But - for all that you guys seem to utterly hate NAT and are dismissive of "security through obscurity" - in the IPv4 world, I can hang a relatively simple device (think DVR or a music server) on a home network and - yes this is bad - pretty much ignore it. It does not need that much "hardening" and, although a NAT is hardly "security" it makes scanning everything in the home a whole lot harder (and often impossible). I mean, really, think about it - what if I hang a networked printer off my home network and it's got some obscure, but exploitable hack that actually only matters if the printer is "visible" to the network at large. I remember this little story: http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-10356806-245.html Hmm...at tax time, it sure would be interesting to sniff for printers and intercept the print job of tax returns. Unless, of course, the printer has a decent internal firewall...with a unique setup and all that means. --0022154017a22de977047f6d31b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Iljitsch van Be= ijnum <iljitsch@= muada.com> wrote:

From the same base principles, I reach the exact opposite conclusion.= Exactly because so many networks are open, an approach that requires netwo= rks to be closed is doomed to failure. And exactly because we can't exp= ect users to reconfigure their home gateway, it is paramount that it comes = out of the box in a state that allows applications to work. Which means tha= t incoming sessions must be supported for peer-to-peer applications. The si= mplest way to do that is to have no firewall at all, because as we saw re o= pen networks, hosts much be able to fend for themselves anyway.

But if the marketing people insist that they can't sell a device withou= t the word "firewall" on the box we need to make things such that= despite any firewalling going on, the peer-to-peer apps still work.

I see your point. But - for all that you guys seem to utterly hat= e NAT and are dismissive of "security through obscurity" - in the= IPv4 world, I can hang a relatively simple device (think DVR or a music se= rver) on a home network and - yes this is bad - pretty much ignore it. It d= oes not need that much "hardening" and, although a NAT is hardly = "security" it makes scanning everything in the home a whole lot h= arder (and often impossible). I mean, really, think about it - what if I ha= ng a networked printer off my home network and it's got some obscure, b= ut exploitable hack that actually only matters if the printer is "visi= ble" to the network at large. I remember this little story: http://news.cnet.com/= 8301-27080_3-10356806-245.html

Hmm...at tax time, it sure would be interesting to sniff for printers a= nd intercept the print job of tax returns. Unless, of course, the printer h= as a decent internal firewall...with a unique setup and all that means.



--0022154017a22de977047f6d31b8-- From bs7652@att.com Fri Feb 12 14:19:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A144D3A6F43 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:19:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n+PkWzp5pWvp for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail120.messagelabs.com (mail120.messagelabs.com [216.82.250.83]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892C93A6AD0 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:19:43 -0800 (PST) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: bs7652@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-10.tower-120.messagelabs.com!1266013262!26586247!1 X-StarScan-Version: 6.2.4; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.146] Received: (qmail 6720 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2010 22:21:02 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp7.sbc.com (HELO mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) (144.160.20.146) by server-10.tower-120.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 12 Feb 2010 22:21:02 -0000 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1CMKsqs014691 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:20:54 -0500 Received: from 01GAF5142010622.AD.BLS.COM (01GAF5142010622.ad.bls.com [139.76.131.83]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id o1CMKmuT014601 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:20:49 -0500 Received: from 01NC27689010625.AD.BLS.COM ([90.144.44.200]) by 01GAF5142010622.AD.BLS.COM with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:20:56 -0500 Received: from 01NC27689010641.AD.BLS.COM ([90.144.44.103]) by 01NC27689010625.AD.BLS.COM with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:20:55 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.4325 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:20:54 -0500 Message-ID: <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA122BDDD3@crexc41p> In-Reply-To: <27A8D8F5-411E-4B1E-AE68-2B3FAD684F58@muada.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [homegate] UDP in torrents thread-index: AcqsIHvjptjf3s4PSamUAdamf4kTPwADU97w References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no><94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com><6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no><29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com><4B75A404.20409@bennett.com><57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com><4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com><6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> <27A8D8F5-411E-4B1E-AE68-2B3FAD684F58@muada.com> From: "STARK, BARBARA H (ATTLABS)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2010 22:20:55.0502 (UTC) FILETIME=[A4FED6E0:01CAAC31] Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 22:19:44 -0000 The requirements for IPv6 firewalling, inside my company, did not come from the Marketing side. It came from the people who have to minimize Help Desk calls, and the Security people. And the reason they have all concluded they need this firewall, is RFC 4864. >From RFC 4864: "To implement simple security for IPv6 in, for example, a DSL or cable modem-connected home network, the broadband gateway/router should be equipped with stateful firewall capabilities. These should provide a default configuration where incoming traffic is limited to return traffic resulting from outgoing packets (sometimes known as reflective session state). There should also be an easy interface that allows users to create inbound 'pinholes' for specific purposes such as online gaming." Perhaps this capability in the broadband gateway/router is really nothing but a feel-good placebo. That's not for me to say. I'm not the expert. But the author list of RFC 4864 does have some experts. Which causes RFC 4862 to be referenced all over the place as being the definitive recommendation on security. So, good or bad, the IETF has created the perception that this capability is a good thing. If it is a good thing, please finish up the simple-security draft. If it isn't a good thing, then the IETF needs to publish a different RFC that says what really, really is recommended. If the IETF decides to pursue the route of changing its recommendation, then the IETF needs to provide the complete picture for protecting the home network and all of the devices in it. Not some simplistic statement about how the recommendations in simple-security are no good or useless and all hosts need to be responsible for their own security. That's completely unhelpful. Tell us: What should hosts do? How should sharing be done? How should network resources, like printers, be secured, but easy for people to use and configure? Be complete. Think it all through. And then convince us that RFC 4864 was wrong. Barbara ***** The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to = which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or = privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other = use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by = persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If = you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the = material from all computers. GA622 From richard@bennett.com Fri Feb 12 19:21:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B97A28C21F for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:21:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.161 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HEQj8qqXICzx for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ans51.midphase.com (unknown [69.4.229.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A215F28C196 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from c-24-5-230-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([24.5.230.26] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by ans51.midphase.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ng8aQ-00069O-Fz for homegate@ietf.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:22:26 -0600 Message-ID: <4B761AE8.3080001@bennett.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:22:16 -0800 From: Richard Bennett User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homegate@ietf.org References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> <6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> <8F360280-038A-4178-B5B8-F725ECA32121@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8F360280-038A-4178-B5B8-F725ECA32121@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ans51.midphase.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bennett.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 03:21:07 -0000 When the Wi-Fi access point and the home gateway are the same box, the AP itself can be preconfigured for WPS. That's the way the gateways that the major carriers are shipping are put together, and that's the reason WPS was invented in the first place - to make WiFi secure while making it easy to provision new devices. There are obstacles to doing this, such as the WHQL waiver you need to get from MS because they want all APs to be "open" by default. But it's best current carrier practice and getting MS to fall into line is a priority. I think the example was meant to illustrate the way the mass public approaches network security, BTW. RB On 2/12/2010 12:17 PM, David R Oran wrote: > On Feb 12, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Martin Focazio wrote: > > >> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Richard Bennett wrote: >> In the real world, Iljitsch, home networks are not maintained by IETF participants, they're configured by somebody who knows just enough to create a share and nothing at all about security. Default gateway configurations should work for people with the default level of knowledge and the default crappy OS. >> >> A wholehearted endorsement of this stance. >> >> IETF folks are smart, and are well versed in the concepts and practices of networking. IETF folks are a tiny minority of the potential users of an IPv6 residential gateway. >> >> Consider for a moment how many open WiFi access points you can find in any given apartment building >> > With the open wifi network right in the chewy center behind the crunchy firewall that's supposed to help? > > >> Consider for a moment how often you encounter unpatched systems among friends and family. Think about the security practices of ordinary computer users. >> >> Now, consider for a moment the utter absurdity of insisting that these same people - the ones who can't seem to manage to remember the password for their email accounts - are expected to make sure each device connected to their shiny new IPV6 wonder-box is - as a peer device on the big bad internet - adequately protected. That is a crazy idea. >> A firewall is a must, from day 1. >> >> > > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> homegate mailing list >> homegate@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate >> > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > -- Richard Bennett Research Fellow Information Technology and Innovation Foundation Washington, DC From mbaugher@cisco.com Sat Feb 13 09:34:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24F33A7374 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:34:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U4wFl5H4i1n3 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:34:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B4833A735B for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:34:01 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAFdxdkurR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACbH3SjW4pPjGWCaIFzBIMU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,468,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="482665407" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2010 17:35:24 +0000 Received: from sjc-mbaugher-87110.cisco.com (sjc-mbaugher-87110.cisco.com [10.19.93.43]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1DHZNwx020866; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 17:35:23 GMT References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> <6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> <8F360280-038A-4178-B5B8-F725ECA32121@cisco.com> <4B761AE8.3080001@bennett.com> In-Reply-To: <4B761AE8.3080001@bennett.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Mark Baugher Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:35:22 -0800 To: Richard Bennett X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 17:34:02 -0000 I'm skeptical that WPS is widely used by people to configure WPA on = their APs. I don't think WPS has been all that successful in terms of = widespread use and would appreciate any information to the contrary. = Based mostly on anecdotal evidence, the most common method is through = the gateway installation program. It is unlikely that the great = majority of users ever choose to reconfigure their gateway once it's = installed. It's more likely that reconfiguration happens once at = installation time to enable WLAN security in geographies where Wi-Fi is = popular. Practically all of the gateway products I have used ship with = a well-known password or equivalent to make installation easy. This is = much worse than running an open wireless LAN in my view since all the = products I have evaluated will work plug-and-play, meaning that they = will operate with a well-known system password or equivalent open access = to the system configuration. =20 I think it's safe to say that malware is a much bigger threat than war = drivers or free riders. Thus, the current practice of shipping a = gateway with no access controls by default to ease configuration of wlan = security is a cure that's worse than the disease. I know of at least one vendor that ships their gateways with WLAN = security enabled by default. But this default setting can be very = expensive since it results in many service calls for what is often a = very low margin product. Besides that, it does nothing to prevent = interior malware. Mark On 12/02/2010, at 7:22 PM, Richard Bennett wrote: > When the Wi-Fi access point and the home gateway are the same box, the = AP itself can be preconfigured for WPS. That's the way the gateways that = the major carriers are shipping are put together, and that's the reason = WPS was invented in the first place - to make WiFi secure while making = it easy to provision new devices. >=20 > There are obstacles to doing this, such as the WHQL waiver you need to = get from MS because they want all APs to be "open" by default. But it's = best current carrier practice and getting MS to fall into line is a = priority. >=20 > I think the example was meant to illustrate the way the mass public = approaches network security, BTW. >=20 > RB >=20 > On 2/12/2010 12:17 PM, David R Oran wrote: >> On Feb 12, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Martin Focazio wrote: >>=20 >> =20 >>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Richard = Bennett wrote: >>> In the real world, Iljitsch, home networks are not maintained by = IETF participants, they're configured by somebody who knows just enough = to create a share and nothing at all about security. Default gateway = configurations should work for people with the default level of = knowledge and the default crappy OS. >>>=20 >>> A wholehearted endorsement of this stance. >>>=20 >>> IETF folks are smart, and are well versed in the concepts and = practices of networking. IETF folks are a tiny minority of the potential = users of an IPv6 residential gateway. >>>=20 >>> Consider for a moment how many open WiFi access points you can find = in any given apartment building >>> =20 >> With the open wifi network right in the chewy center behind the = crunchy firewall that's supposed to help? >>=20 >> =20 >>> Consider for a moment how often you encounter unpatched systems = among friends and family. Think about the security practices of ordinary = computer users. >>>=20 >>> Now, consider for a moment the utter absurdity of insisting that = these same people - the ones who can't seem to manage to remember the = password for their email accounts - are expected to make sure each = device connected to their shiny new IPV6 wonder-box is - as a peer = device on the big bad internet - adequately protected. That is a crazy = idea. >>> A firewall is a must, from day 1. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> homegate mailing list >>> homegate@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate >>> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> homegate mailing list >> homegate@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate >> =20 >=20 > --=20 > Richard Bennett > Research Fellow > Information Technology and Innovation Foundation > Washington, DC >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From mail@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com Sat Feb 13 09:39:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A323A7708 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:39:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d3yewNvUPFye for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ew0-f228.google.com (mail-ew0-f228.google.com [209.85.219.228]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FB43A73C8 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:39:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by ewy28 with SMTP id 28so2725599ewy.28 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.91.20 with SMTP id g20mr1739267wef.94.1266082839178; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.3? (cpc4-dals7-0-0-cust274.hari.cable.virginmedia.com [62.31.227.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g9sm11281838gvc.25.2010.02.13.09.40.38 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:40:38 -0800 (PST) From: Sabahattin Gucukoglu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 17:40:37 +0000 Message-Id: <65561B6A-827D-49E4-B116-DB3C5C33BD6C@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com> To: homegate@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Subject: [homegate] Default Outbound Portblocks, Logging, Egress Filters X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 17:39:22 -0000 I understand that making filtering decisions on behalf of others is = unwise. However, it seems to me that homegate can recommend a default, = user-revertable (or, if management requires it, an ISP-revertable and = ISP-managed) block against "Commonly-abused services", or SMTP for = short, as a best practice. It's contentious whether this makes any = difference to the spam problem, as much that it would hurt an ISP's = business any less when done by a home gateway than by a border router. = However, I think it's a good idea, for all the reasons those wishing to = run leaf MTAs and yet familiar with the spam problem and the = effectiveness of the solutions available to date know. The same stance can probably be made concerning egress filtering, and = logging of the "Bad" traffic at the consumer's premises. All of this = will doubtless become somewhat more attractive when ISPs have to take on = CGNs and whatnot in the face of an increasingly interested legislative = mindset in parts of the world wishing to retain customer data. Smart = edges, fast core, angry businesses on dynamic range blacklists, etc. What do people say? Cheers, Sabahattin From richard@bennett.com Mon Feb 15 03:56:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205943A7B4A for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 03:56:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.769 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.769 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.929, BAYES_20=-0.74, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ie8cxZ6ARH7T for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 03:56:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ans51.midphase.com (unknown [69.4.229.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B1E3A7B49 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 03:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from c-24-5-230-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([24.5.230.26] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by ans51.midphase.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ngza3-0004z1-Su; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 05:57:35 -0600 Message-ID: <4B793699.3090404@bennett.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 03:57:13 -0800 From: Richard Bennett User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Baugher References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> <6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> <8F360280-038A-4178-B5B8-F725ECA32121@cisco.com> <4B761AE8.3080001@bennett.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ans51.midphase.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bennett.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:56:08 -0000 I can't say how widely used WPS is yet, but I would consider it a best=20 practice in any event; at least WPA2 is a best practice in the absence=20 of a RADIUS server. The gateway vendor I used to work for sold systems to two of the three=20 major U. S. telcos, and both of them were secure by default with unique=20 passwords. The password for each unit was printed on the label, and if=20 customer changed it and forgot it, he could reset the box and go back=20 the unique factory setting. The WLAN was also secure by default,=20 unfortunately using WEP in one instance because the customer is always=20 right. The retail gateways are the ones that are really messed up=20 because the vendors just don't want their phones to ring and pretty much = couldn't care less about the ecosystem. I agree that malware and botnets are the major threats; they're the=20 fruits of the end-to-end assumption that users are smart and network=20 operators are dumb. But that doesn't mean they're the only threats, or=20 even the only significant ones. The issue ultimately is how we secure=20 personal information for people who aren't too sharp. Firewalls are horrible, I agree entirely with that. And unmediated=20 attacks are worse, so what are you going to do? RB On 2/13/2010 9:35 AM, Mark Baugher wrote: > I'm skeptical that WPS is widely used by people to configure WPA on the= ir APs. I don't think WPS has been all that successful in terms of wides= pread use and would appreciate any information to the contrary. Based mo= stly on anecdotal evidence, the most common method is through the gateway= installation program. It is unlikely that the great majority of users e= ver choose to reconfigure their gateway once it's installed. It's more l= ikely that reconfiguration happens once at installation time to enable WL= AN security in geographies where Wi-Fi is popular. Practically all of th= e gateway products I have used ship with a well-known password or equival= ent to make installation easy. This is much worse than running an open w= ireless LAN in my view since all the products I have evaluated will work = plug-and-play, meaning that they will operate with a well-known system pa= ssword or equivalent open access to the system configuration. > > I think it's safe to say that malware is a much bigger threat than war = drivers or free riders. Thus, the current practice of shipping a gateway= with no access controls by default to ease configuration of wlan securit= y is a cure that's worse than the disease. > > I know of at least one vendor that ships their gateways with WLAN secur= ity enabled by default. But this default setting can be very expensive s= ince it results in many service calls for what is often a very low margin= product. Besides that, it does nothing to prevent interior malware. > > Mark > > On 12/02/2010, at 7:22 PM, Richard Bennett wrote: > > =20 >> When the Wi-Fi access point and the home gateway are the same box, the= AP itself can be preconfigured for WPS. That's the way the gateways that= the major carriers are shipping are put together, and that's the reason = WPS was invented in the first place - to make WiFi secure while making it= easy to provision new devices. >> >> There are obstacles to doing this, such as the WHQL waiver you need to= get from MS because they want all APs to be "open" by default. But it's = best current carrier practice and getting MS to fall into line is a prior= ity. >> >> I think the example was meant to illustrate the way the mass public ap= proaches network security, BTW. >> >> RB >> >> On 2/12/2010 12:17 PM, David R Oran wrote: >> =20 >>> On Feb 12, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Martin Focazio wrote: >>> >>> >>> =20 >>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Richard Bennett wrote: >>>> In the real world, Iljitsch, home networks are not maintained by IET= F participants, they're configured by somebody who knows just enough to c= reate a share and nothing at all about security. Default gateway configu= rations should work for people with the default level of knowledge and th= e default crappy OS. >>>> >>>> A wholehearted endorsement of this stance. >>>> >>>> IETF folks are smart, and are well versed in the concepts and practi= ces of networking. IETF folks are a tiny minority of the potential users = of an IPv6 residential gateway. >>>> >>>> Consider for a moment how many open WiFi access points you can find = in any given apartment building >>>> >>>> =20 >>> With the open wifi network right in the chewy center behind the crunc= hy firewall that's supposed to help? >>> >>> >>> =20 >>>> Consider for a moment how often you encounter unpatched systems amon= g friends and family. Think about the security practices of ordinary comp= uter users. >>>> >>>> Now, consider for a moment the utter absurdity of insisting that the= se same people - the ones who can't seem to manage to remember the passwo= rd for their email accounts - are expected to make sure each device conne= cted to their shiny new IPV6 wonder-box is - as a peer device on the big = bad internet - adequately protected. That is a crazy idea. >>>> A firewall is a must, from day 1. >>>> >>>> >>>> =20 >>> >>> =20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> homegate mailing list >>>> homegate@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate >>>> >>>> =20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> homegate mailing list >>> homegate@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate >>> >>> =20 >> --=20 >> Richard Bennett >> Research Fellow >> Information Technology and Innovation Foundation >> Washington, DC >> >> _______________________________________________ >> homegate mailing list >> homegate@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate >> =20 > =20 --=20 Richard Bennett Research Fellow Information Technology and Innovation Foundation Washington, DC From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Mon Feb 15 07:48:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7D5828C0E9 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 07:48:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-5.164, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D-pU70JmNMza for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 07:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.59]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51E53A7B67 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 07:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([10.52.116.30]) by paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-TDCH7.77012408; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:49:48 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP01.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:49:48 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:49:48 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:49:45 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: "homegate@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Interim Meeting Details - !RSVP Needed for Venue Sizing! Thread-Index: AcquVn65jCQRAyIoXUGU3Lx45ajlGA== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3349075787_3963251" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2010 15:49:48.0934 (UTC) FILETIME=[8111FA60:01CAAE56] Subject: [homegate] Interim Meeting Details - !RSVP Needed for Venue Sizing! X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:48:37 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3349075787_3963251 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable We=B9ve selected April 20th and 21st as our meeting dates, in London, England= . While we will try to include a teleconference aspect to the meeting, we do need to determine the number of f2f attendees ASAP in order to book an appropriate venue. Please RSVP now if you plan to possibly or definitely attend in person: http://event.pingg.com/HomeGateLondonMtg Thanks! Jason --B_3349075787_3963251 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Interim Meeting Details - !RSVP Needed for Venue Sizing! We’ve selected April 20th and 21st as our meeting dates, in London, = England.  While we will try to include a teleconference aspect to the m= eeting, we do need to determine the number of f2f attendees ASAP in order to= book an appropriate venue.

Please RSVP now if you plan to possibly or definitely attend in person: http://event.pingg.com/HomeG= ateLondonMtg

Thanks!
Jason --B_3349075787_3963251-- From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Mon Feb 15 08:09:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B32A3A7B90 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:09:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.473 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.473 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.566, BAYES_05=-1.11, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vOuwwwGds+Pu for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:09:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.58]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D027128C0D9 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:09:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.15.118]) by paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-NTF18.86724426; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:10:30 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP04.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:10:31 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:10:30 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:10:24 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] home network security (was UDP in torrents) Thread-Index: AcquWWE6RYFZyh7GHkOklS39ot7gFg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2010 16:10:31.0386 (UTC) FILETIME=[65A11BA0:01CAAE59] Subject: Re: [homegate] home network security (was UDP in torrents) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:09:17 -0000 A security service on a device can be helpful in preventing access from outside the home LAN that the user did not initiate and/or request. That is indeed a major concern. I recall in early broadband days having issues with people printing offensive materials on their neighbor's printers and browsing their file shares and so on. But Mark is also correct that malware is also a big threat which a service service on a device won't really help with. In North American, between 5% and 10% of all users have a malicious bot. In some other parts of the world, that number is much higher (I recall a survey that indicated one European country was in the 25%+ range.) These are simply data points to keep in mind for later. Jason PS - Shameless I-D plug: feel free to review/comment on my draft @ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-oreirdan-mody-bot-remediation-07 On 2/13/10 12:35 PM, "Mark Baugher" wrote: > I think it's safe to say that malware is a much bigger threat than war drivers > or free riders. Thus, the current practice of shipping a gateway with no > access controls by default to ease configuration of wlan security is a cure > that's worse than the disease. > > I know of at least one vendor that ships their gateways with WLAN security > enabled by default. But this default setting can be very expensive since it > results in many service calls for what is often a very low margin product. > Besides that, it does nothing to prevent interior malware. > > Mark > > On 12/02/2010, at 7:22 PM, Richard Bennett wrote: > >> When the Wi-Fi access point and the home gateway are the same box, the AP >> itself can be preconfigured for WPS. That's the way the gateways that the >> major carriers are shipping are put together, and that's the reason WPS was >> invented in the first place - to make WiFi secure while making it easy to >> provision new devices. >> >> There are obstacles to doing this, such as the WHQL waiver you need to get >> from MS because they want all APs to be "open" by default. But it's best >> current carrier practice and getting MS to fall into line is a priority. >> >> I think the example was meant to illustrate the way the mass public >> approaches network security, BTW. >> >> RB >> >> On 2/12/2010 12:17 PM, David R Oran wrote: >>> On Feb 12, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Martin Focazio wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Richard Bennett >>>> wrote: >>>> In the real world, Iljitsch, home networks are not maintained by IETF >>>> participants, they're configured by somebody who knows just enough to >>>> create a share and nothing at all about security. Default gateway >>>> configurations should work for people with the default level of knowledge >>>> and the default crappy OS. >>>> >>>> A wholehearted endorsement of this stance. >>>> >>>> IETF folks are smart, and are well versed in the concepts and practices of >>>> networking. IETF folks are a tiny minority of the potential users of an >>>> IPv6 residential gateway. >>>> >>>> Consider for a moment how many open WiFi access points you can find in any >>>> given apartment building >>>> >>> With the open wifi network right in the chewy center behind the crunchy >>> firewall that's supposed to help? >>> >>> >>>> Consider for a moment how often you encounter unpatched systems among >>>> friends and family. Think about the security practices of ordinary computer >>>> users. >>>> >>>> Now, consider for a moment the utter absurdity of insisting that these same >>>> people - the ones who can't seem to manage to remember the password for >>>> their email accounts - are expected to make sure each device connected to >>>> their shiny new IPV6 wonder-box is - as a peer device on the big bad >>>> internet - adequately protected. That is a crazy idea. >>>> A firewall is a must, from day 1. From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Mon Feb 15 08:24:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DD6128C1C3 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:24:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.065 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.065 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.472, BAYES_20=-0.74, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rMfsXXg3KGRu for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368E628C1B4 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([10.52.116.31]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.72420990; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:26:03 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP02.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:26:03 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:26:02 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:25:58 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] home network security (was UDP in torrents) Thread-Index: AcquW43vKoSoDdicKUWM85Ss9Uzs9A== In-Reply-To: <4B793699.3090404@bennett.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2010 16:26:03.0381 (UTC) FILETIME=[91244250:01CAAE5B] Subject: Re: [homegate] home network security (was UDP in torrents) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:24:36 -0000 > I agree that malware and botnets are the major threats; they're the > fruits of the end-to-end assumption that users are smart and network > operators are dumb. But that doesn't mean they're the only threats, or > even the only significant ones. The issue ultimately is how we secure > personal information for people who aren't too sharp. I don't mean to single Richard out but, I often hear that sentiment expressed by many people and while I understand it, I think we (the collective 'we' in technology industries) ultimately fail because of this assumption. It's not necessarily that people aren't smart, it's simply that they don't have the time to pay attention to it, don't see the benefit of learning what to do and why, etc. That's ultimately a user experience, user education, and/or technical design failure IMHO. I think this is partly why the Apple suite of products is so successful. The average user just wants to plug devices together and they just magically work, integrate nicely with other things, tend not to crash, and you needn't open a manual to figure things out. By the same token, I think end users simply expect us all to ensure they have some basic level of security and that "it just works" - be that on their host or in their network. (with the ability to configure something 'better' if they want to invest the time) But I digress. Don't forget to RSVP for the meeting! :-) http://event.pingg.com/HomeGateLondonMtg Jason From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Mon Feb 15 08:33:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F85A28C1C2 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:33:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.374, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H4fybpvoPj9i for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com (PacdcIMO01.cable.comcast.com [24.40.8.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6103528C1CF for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([10.52.116.31]) by pacdcimo01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 5503620.72422382; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:34:39 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP02.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:34:40 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:34:39 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:34:37 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: Sabahattin Gucukoglu , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Default Outbound Portblocks, Logging, Egress Filters Thread-Index: AcquXMNII4lw2w2IT0yUQWKi5gRZNw== In-Reply-To: <65561B6A-827D-49E4-B116-DB3C5C33BD6C@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2010 16:34:40.0359 (UTC) FILETIME=[C548D770:01CAAE5C] Cc: Chris Roosenraad , Mike O'Reirdan , Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [homegate] Default Outbound Portblocks, Logging, Egress Filters X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:33:19 -0000 Interesting question, and I know that the Messaging Anti-Abuse Working Group (aka MAAWG) has focused on this over the years. I believe they also have a recommendation document regarding Port 25 management in ISP networks. That document recommends (among other things): 1. Provide Email Submission services on port 587, as described in RFC 2476. 2. Require authentication for Email Submission, as described in RFC 2554. If I understand the question you then, does that mean that port 25 is shut by default (which is configurable), or does port 25 translate you to 587? Or are you suggesting something entirely different? Regards Jason On 2/13/10 12:40 PM, "Sabahattin Gucukoglu" wrote: > I understand that making filtering decisions on behalf of others is unwise. > However, it seems to me that homegate can recommend a default, user-revertable > (or, if management requires it, an ISP-revertable and ISP-managed) block > against "Commonly-abused services", or SMTP for short, as a best practice. > It's contentious whether this makes any difference to the spam problem, as > much that it would hurt an ISP's business any less when done by a home gateway > than by a border router. However, I think it's a good idea, for all the > reasons those wishing to run leaf MTAs and yet familiar with the spam problem > and the effectiveness of the solutions available to date know. > > The same stance can probably be made concerning egress filtering, and logging > of the "Bad" traffic at the consumer's premises. All of this will doubtless > become somewhat more attractive when ISPs have to take on CGNs and whatnot in > the face of an increasingly interested legislative mindset in parts of the > world wishing to retain customer data. Smart edges, fast core, angry > businesses on dynamic range blacklists, etc. > > What do people say? > > Cheers, > Sabahattin > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate From mail@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com Mon Feb 15 09:51:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5F2528C1F5 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:51:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id juudlJLFqHiW for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:51:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f215.google.com (mail-fx0-f215.google.com [209.85.220.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3540228C1D8 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:51:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm7 with SMTP id 7so6043962fxm.28 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.90.201 with SMTP id e51mr1105357wef.59.1266256371411; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.3? (cpc4-dals7-0-0-cust274.hari.cable.virginmedia.com [62.31.227.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p10sm17822118gvf.13.2010.02.15.09.52.49 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:52:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) From: Sabahattin Gucukoglu In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:52:48 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Subject: Re: [homegate] Default Outbound Portblocks, Logging, Egress Filters X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:51:26 -0000 On 15 Feb 2010, at 16:34, Jason Livingood wrote: > Interesting question, and I know that the Messaging Anti-Abuse Working = Group > (aka MAAWG) has focused on this over the years. I believe they also = have a > recommendation document regarding Port 25 management in ISP networks. = That > document recommends (among other things): >=20 > 1. Provide Email Submission services on port 587, as described in = RFC > 2476. 2. Require authentication for Email Submission, as described = in RFC > 2554. >=20 > If I understand the question you then, does that mean that port 25 is = shut > by default (which is configurable), or does port 25 translate you to = 587? > Or are you suggesting something entirely different? Shut by default and configurable by end-user (or, less preferably, by = ISP, but that's a whole different argument). I did read the MAAWG = recommendation; your mentioning redirects suggests a possible workaround = for the end-user configuration hassle implied by port 587, although = that's very shaky ground, indeed. The idea is to prevent zombies from = being able to unleash themselves on victim MTAs without some sort of = impediment from our home gateways. It means there's more of an = incentive for ISPs to be less careful (or more generous) with their own = port 25 blockages, which may be necessary in the near future with the = address crunch putting businesses alongside residents, and so on, and = which neatly facilitates the best practice without so much help from = ISPs and so much inconvenience to legitimate users. The zombie spam = present on today's Internet certainly gives credence to the argument = that making it an ISP-only responsibility isn't notably useful. Cheers, Sabahattin From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Thu Feb 18 10:48:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E62928C133 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:48:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.295 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.295 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.296, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G2YYsJEp-49R for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.59]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E03F3A6B67 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.15.118]) by paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-TDCH7.77224461; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:49:41 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP04.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:49:42 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:49:41 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:49:45 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: Jason Livingood , "homegate@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homegate] Interim Meeting Details - !RSVP Needed for Venue Sizing! Thread-Index: AcquVn65jCQRAyIoXUGU3Lx45ajlGACdKSKl In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3349345785_5983480" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2010 18:49:42.0170 (UTC) FILETIME=[219457A0:01CAB0CB] Subject: Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting Details - !RSVP Needed for Venue Sizing! X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:48:14 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3349345785_5983480 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable So far we have just 9 attendees registered. Please indicate your interest ASAP at: http://event.pingg.com/HomeGateLondonMtg On 2/15/10 10:49 AM, "Jason Livingood" wrote: > We=B9ve selected April 20th and 21st as our meeting dates, in London, Engla= nd. > While we will try to include a teleconference aspect to the meeting, we d= o > need to determine the number of f2f attendees ASAP in order to book an > appropriate venue. >=20 > Please RSVP now if you plan to possibly or definitely attend in person: > http://event.pingg.com/HomeGateLondonMtg >=20 > Thanks! Jason --B_3349345785_5983480 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [homegate] Interim Meeting Details - !RSVP Needed for Venue Sizi= ng! So far we have just 9 attendees registered.  

Please indicate your interest ASAP at: http://event.pingg.com/HomeGateLondonMtg


On 2/15/10 10:49 AM, "Jason Livingood" <jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com> wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>We’ve selected April 20th and 21st as our = meeting dates, in London, England.  While we will try to include a tele= conference aspect to the meeting, we do need to determine the number of f2f = attendees ASAP in order to book an appropriate venue.

Please RSVP now if you plan to possibly or definitely attend in person: http://event.pingg.com/HomeG= ateLondonMtg

Thanks!
= Jason --B_3349345785_5983480-- From jhw@apple.com Thu Feb 18 17:36:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D5E28C1A2 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:36:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.451, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Et0q0hGWcQQI for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.254.13.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D386828C19B for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay16.apple.com (relay16.apple.com [17.128.113.55]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE4D8CEC49F for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:37:53 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807137-b7bd4ae000000f0d-df-4b7deb713afc Received: from il0602f-dhcp114.apple.com (il0602f-dhcp114.apple.com [17.206.50.114]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay16.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 67.E1.03853.17BED7B4; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:37:53 -0800 (PST) From: james woodyatt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:37:53 -0800 Message-Id: <4C2DE6AD-3FB2-4970-BE98-B994D790FAE2@apple.com> To: homegate@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Subject: [homegate] update: I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-09 X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:36:09 -0000 everyone-- I have just uploaded to the datatracker another minor revision to = I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security to address comments by Cameron Byrne. = I'm hoping that everyone in the V6OPS working group can finally get = over whatever else is bothering them about this draft, and we can get it = moved through working group last call soon. If you care about this = draft, then please help the group arrive at something resembling a = consensus about what it should say. Thanks. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Mon Feb 22 12:19:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC37A28C243 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:19:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.593 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.593 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.323, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_41=0.6, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tIlzMOB3Ka9I for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com (paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com [208.17.35.58]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3987B28C1E3 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([10.195.246.152]) by paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-NTF18.87403197; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:21:03 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by NJMDCEXCRLY01.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:36:24 -0500 Received: from 147.191.227.88 ([147.191.227.88]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:35:18 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.23.0.091001 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:35:05 -0500 From: Jason Livingood To: "homegate@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Chuck Norris Botnet and Broadband Routers Thread-Index: Acqz5V6hhoZmk181/kyVkxMbcReKiA== In-Reply-To: <2E28C4C5-B831-4B35-BB22-4BF049C59EBC@me.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3349686906_904950" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Feb 2010 17:36:24.0405 (UTC) FILETIME=[8DF5A850:01CAB3E5] Subject: [homegate] FW: Chuck Norris Botnet and Broadband Routers X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:19:35 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3349686906_904950 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Begin forwarded message: > From: Gadi Evron > Date: February 22, 2010 9:23:55 AM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Chuck Norris Botnet and Broadband Routers > > Good morning Dave. How are you? > > For IP. > > Gadi. > > > Last week Czech researchers released information on a new worm which exploits > CPE devices (broadband routers) by means such as default passwords, > constructing a large DDoS botnet. Today this story hit international news. > > Original Czech: > http://praguemonitor.com/2010/02/16/czech-experts-uncover-global-virus-network > > English: > http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/189868/chuck_norris_botnet_karat > echops_routers_hard.html > > When I raised this issue before in 2007 on NANOG, some other vetted mailing > lists and on CircleID, the consensus was that the vendors will not change > their position on default settings unless "something happens", I guess this is > it, but I am not optimistic on seeing activity from vendors on this now, > either. > > CircleID story 1: > http://www.circleid.com/posts/broadband_routers_botnets/ > > CircleID story 2: > http://www.circleid.com/posts/broadband_router_insecurity/ > > The spread of insecure broadband modems (DSL and Cable) is extremely > wide-spread, with numerous ISPs, large and small, whose entire (read > significant portions of) broadband population is vulnerable. In tests Prof. > Randy Vaughn and I conducted with some ISPs in 2007-8 the results have not > been promising. > > Further, many of these devices world wide serve as infection mechanisms for > the computers behind them, with hijacked DNS that points end-users to > malicious web sites. > > On the ISPs end, much like in the early days of botnets, many service > providers did not see these devices as their responsibility -- even though in > many cases they are the providers of the systems, and these posed a potential > DDoS threat to their networks. As a mind-set, operationally taking > responsibility for devices located at the homes of end users made no sense, > and therefore the stance ISPs took on this issue was understandable, if > irresponsible. > > As we can't rely on the vendors, ISPs should step up, and at the very least > ensure that devices they provide to their end users are properly set up (a > significant number of iSPs already pre-configure them for support purposes). > > The Czech researchers have done a good job and I'd like to thank them for > sharing their research with us. > > In this article by Robert McMillan, some details are shared in English: > > ---------- > Discovered by Czech researchers, the botnet has been spreading by taking > advantage of poorly configured routers and DSL modems, according to Jan > Vykopal, the head of the network security department with Masaryk University's > Institute of Computer Science in Brno, Czech Republic. > > The malware got the Chuck Norris moniker from a programmer's Italian comment > in its source code: "in nome di Chuck Norris," which means "in the name of > Chuck Norris." Norris is a U.S. actor best known for his martial arts films > such as "The Way of the Dragon" and "Missing in Action." > > Security experts say that various types of botnets have infected millions of > computers worldwide to date, but Chuck Norris is unusual in that it infects > DSL modems and routers rather than PCs. > > It installs itself on routers and modems by guessing default administrative > passwords and taking advantage of the fact that many devices are configured to > allow remote access. It also exploits a known vulnerability in D-Link Systems > devices, Vykopal said in an e-mail interview. > > A D-Link spokesman said he was not aware of the botnet, and the company did > not immediately have any comment on the issue. > > Like an earlier router-infecting botnet called Psyb0t, Chuck Norris can infect > an MIPS-based device running the Linux operating system if its administration > interface has a weak username and password, he said. This MIPS/Linux > combination is widely used in routers and DSL modems, but the botnet also > attacks satellite TV receivers. > ---------- > > Read more here: > http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/189868/chuck_norris_botnet_karat > echops_routers_hard.html > > I will post updates on this as I discover them on my blog, under this same > post, here: > http://gadievron.blogspot.com/2010/02/chuck-norris-botnet-and-broadband.html > > Gadi. > ------ End of Forwarded Message --B_3349686906_904950 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable FW: Chuck Norris Botnet and Broadband Routers

Begin forwarded message:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>From: Gadi Evron <ge@linuxbox.org>
Date: February 22, 2010 9:23:55 AM EST
To: dave@farber.net <mailto:dave@farber.net>
Subject: Chuck Norris Botnet and Broadband Routers

Good morning Dave. How are you?

For IP.

    Gadi.


Last week Czech researchers released information on a new worm which exploi= ts CPE devices (broadband routers) by means such as default passwords, const= ructing a large DDoS botnet. Today this story hit international news.

Original Czech:
http://praguemonitor.com/2010/02/16/czech-experts-uncover-glob= al-virus-network

English:
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/= article/189868/chuck_norris_botnet_karatechops_routers_hard.html

When I raised this issue before in 2007 on NANOG, some other vetted mailing= lists and on CircleID, the consensus was that the vendors will not change t= heir position on default settings unless "something happens", I gu= ess this is it, but I am not optimistic on seeing activity from vendors on t= his now, either.

CircleID story 1:
http://w= ww.circleid.com/posts/broadband_routers_botnets/

CircleID story 2:
http:/= /www.circleid.com/posts/broadband_router_insecurity/

The spread of insecure broadband modems (DSL and Cable) is extremely wide-s= pread, with numerous ISPs, large and small, whose entire (read significant p= ortions of) broadband population is vulnerable. In tests Prof. Randy Vaughn = and I conducted with some ISPs in 2007-8 the results have not been promising= .

Further, many of these devices world wide serve as infection mechanisms for= the computers behind them, with hijacked DNS that points end-users to malic= ious web sites.

On the ISPs end, much like in the early days of botnets, many service provi= ders did not see these devices as their responsibility -- even though in man= y cases they are the providers of the systems, and these posed a potential D= DoS threat to their networks. As a mind-set, operationally taking responsibi= lity for devices located at the homes of end users made no sense, and theref= ore the stance ISPs took on this issue was understandable, if irresponsible.=

As we can't rely on the vendors, ISPs should step up, and at the very least= ensure that devices they provide to their end users are properly set up (a = significant number of iSPs already pre-configure them for support purposes).=

The Czech researchers have done a good job and I'd like to thank them for s= haring their research with us.

In this article by Robert McMillan, some details are shared in English:

----------
Discovered by Czech researchers, the botnet has been spreading by taking ad= vantage of poorly configured routers and DSL modems, according to Jan Vykopa= l, the head of the network security department with Masaryk University's Ins= titute of Computer Science in Brno, Czech Republic.

The malware got the Chuck Norris moniker from a programmer's Italian commen= t in its source code: "in nome di Chuck Norris," which means "= ;in the name of Chuck Norris." Norris is a U.S. actor best known for hi= s martial arts films such as "The Way of the Dragon" and "Mis= sing in Action."

Security experts say that various types of botnets have infected millions o= f computers worldwide to date, but Chuck Norris is unusual in that it infect= s DSL modems and routers rather than PCs.

It installs itself on routers and modems by guessing default administrative= passwords and taking advantage of the fact that many devices are configured= to allow remote access. It also exploits a known vulnerability in D-Link Sy= stems devices, Vykopal said in an e-mail interview.

A D-Link spokesman said he was not aware of the botnet, and the company did= not immediately have any comment on the issue.

Like an earlier router-infecting botnet called Psyb0t, Chuck Norris can inf= ect an MIPS-based device running the Linux operating system if its administr= ation interface has a weak username and password, he said. This MIPS/Linux c= ombination is widely used in routers and DSL modems, but the botnet also att= acks satellite TV receivers.
----------

Read more here:
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/= article/189868/chuck_norris_botnet_karatechops_routers_hard.html

I will post updates on this as I discover them on my blog, under this same = post, here:
http://gadievron.blogspot.com/2010/02/chuck-norris-botnet-and-br= oadband.html

    Gadi.

=

------ End of Forwarded Message
 --B_3349686906_904950-- From townsley@cisco.com Mon Feb 22 15:12:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C61E628C453 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:12:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zIgjHGlUq3b1 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D12F28C452 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:12:28 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAIeegkurR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACbAXOkLZgmhGsE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,521,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="301826177" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Feb 2010 23:14:29 +0000 Received: from iwan-view3.cisco.com (iwan-view3.cisco.com [171.70.65.13]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1MNES0w011658 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:14:28 GMT Received: from ams-townsley-8713.cisco.com (ams-townsley-8713.cisco.com [10.55.233.228]) by iwan-view3.cisco.com (8.11.2/CISCO.WS.1.2) with ESMTP id o1MNER725800 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:14:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B830FCB.9090503@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:14:19 +0100 From: Mark Townsley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homegate@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [homegate] home network security (was UDP in torrents) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:12:33 -0000 So far the only major bug I have had in my native IPv6 setup at home from my service provider was related to badly acting firewall enabled on a PC doing the wrong thing with ICMPv6 messages. Please don't think for a moment that a firewall makes life easier for a home user. In general, a firewall is there to limit packets from being forwarded, and applications, firewall control protocols, etc. have to figure out how to work *in spite* of that. No applications developer enjoys this. I think users do not want to endure any more security than is necessary for them to feel safe. For some users, seeing the line of people being padded down at an airport makes them feel safe, for others it is just annoying and gets in the way of getting to the airplane on time. At the end of the day, what we are really talking about is risk assessment. Of what value are the IPv6 stacks and the devices that are connected in my home worth, not so much to me, but to the potential attackers out there? That, and how expensive is it for them to compromise my system in a way that can bring them reward? Since Apple was brought up, certainly most folks who have one today do not run an antivirus program and do not get infected with viruses. This is perhaps in small part because the unix underpinning and less diverse application environment is inherently more secure, but it is arguably more because the reward for breaking into a device with 10% market share is less valuable than breaking into a device with 80% market share (or thereabouts). I think IPv6 is sitting at a similar, even earlier, point in its evolution. It is, by far, a less valuable target than IPv4. Also, the devices it runs on today have a stronger underpinning for security (i.e., think about how much less vigilant one would have to be with IPv4 security if all Windows XP and Windows 95 computers could be removed from the equation). Every major commercial OS that comes with IPv6 enabled by default not only has a built-in local firewall, but a tether back to the vendor for regular security updates. So, how many people run virus software on their Mac just because Windows has virus problems? Some, but not many. Why? Not because people do not want to be secure, but because, in general, security comes at direct opposition to ease-of-use. The same is true of firewalls. If you are looking for that Apple "ease of use" experience on the Internet, a firewall will do little to help. - Mark On 2/15/10 5:25 PM, Jason Livingood wrote: > >> I agree that malware and botnets are the major threats; they're the >> fruits of the end-to-end assumption that users are smart and network >> operators are dumb. But that doesn't mean they're the only threats, or >> even the only significant ones. The issue ultimately is how we secure >> personal information for people who aren't too sharp. >> > I don't mean to single Richard out but, I often hear that sentiment > expressed by many people and while I understand it, I think we (the > collective 'we' in technology industries) ultimately fail because of this > assumption. > > It's not necessarily that people aren't smart, it's simply that they don't > have the time to pay attention to it, don't see the benefit of learning what > to do and why, etc. That's ultimately a user experience, user education, > and/or technical design failure IMHO. > > I think this is partly why the Apple suite of products is so successful. > The average user just wants to plug devices together and they just magically > work, integrate nicely with other things, tend not to crash, and you needn't > open a manual to figure things out. By the same token, I think end users > simply expect us all to ensure they have some basic level of security and > that "it just works" - be that on their host or in their network. (with the > ability to configure something 'better' if they want to invest the time) > > But I digress. Don't forget to RSVP for the meeting! :-) > > http://event.pingg.com/HomeGateLondonMtg > > Jason > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > > From townsley@cisco.com Mon Feb 22 15:44:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35ED128C479 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:44:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u0+2IMwwoPK3 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 342CE28C477 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:44:05 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,521,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="301836573" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Feb 2010 23:46:05 +0000 Received: from iwan-view3.cisco.com (iwan-view3.cisco.com [171.70.65.13]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1MNk5Zt008632; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:46:05 GMT Received: from ams-townsley-8713.cisco.com (ams-townsley-8713.cisco.com [10.55.233.228]) by iwan-view3.cisco.com (8.11.2/CISCO.WS.1.2) with ESMTP id o1MNk2728744; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:46:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B831732.8030607@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:45:54 +0100 From: Mark Townsley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homegate@ietf.org References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no><94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com><6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no><29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com><4B75A404.20409@bennett.com><57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com><4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com><6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> <27A8D8F5-411E-4B1E-AE68-2B3FAD684F58@muada.com> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA122BDDD3@crexc41p> In-Reply-To: <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA122BDDD3@crexc41p> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ralph Droms , "Gunter Van de Velde \(gvandeve\)" , ericlklein.ipv6@gmail.com, Tony Hain , Brian E Carpenter , david.kessens@nsn.com Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:44:06 -0000 Hi Barbara, Despite the fact that this is an RFC, it does not represent IETF consensus. It is Informational, and as the second sentence in the document states, "It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind." But, as you say, it is authored by a set of experts. I've cc'd them here, along with the shepherding area director at the time. RFC 4864 opens with text that says there is a "perception that other benefits [to NAT] exist" and that the document intends to show "how Network Architecture Protection (NAP) using IPv6 can provide the same or more benefits without the need for NAT." It also says that there are "many serious disadvantages" to NAT. Given that context, I find it very hard to see how the quoted text below becomes an actual recommendation for an IPv6 firewall for a residential user. But, let's let the experts speak for themselves. Gunter, Tony, Ralph, Brian, Eric, David, Your document is being heralded as the primary reason at least one very large service provider in the US, perhaps along with others, have decided to firewall their residential IPv6 users. Was that your intention with this document? Could you please comment on that here? Thanks, - Mark On 2/12/10 11:20 PM, STARK, BARBARA H (ATTLABS) wrote: > The requirements for IPv6 firewalling, inside my company, did not come > from the Marketing side. It came from the people who have to minimize > Help Desk calls, and the Security people. > > And the reason they have all concluded they need this firewall, is RFC > 4864. > > > From RFC 4864: "To implement simple security for IPv6 in, for example, > a DSL or cable > modem-connected home network, the broadband gateway/router should be > equipped with stateful firewall capabilities. These should provide a > default configuration where incoming traffic is limited to return > traffic resulting from outgoing packets (sometimes known as > reflective session state). There should also be an easy interface > that allows users to create inbound 'pinholes' for specific purposes > such as online gaming." > > Perhaps this capability in the broadband gateway/router is really > nothing but a feel-good placebo. That's not for me to say. I'm not the > expert. But the author list of RFC 4864 does have some experts. Which > causes RFC 4862 to be referenced all over the place as being the > definitive recommendation on security. > > So, good or bad, the IETF has created the perception that this > capability is a good thing. If it is a good thing, please finish up the > simple-security draft. If it isn't a good thing, then the IETF needs to > publish a different RFC that says what really, really is recommended. > > If the IETF decides to pursue the route of changing its recommendation, > then the IETF needs to provide the complete picture for protecting the > home network and all of the devices in it. Not some simplistic statement > about how the recommendations in simple-security are no good or useless > and all hosts need to be responsible for their own security. That's > completely unhelpful. Tell us: What should hosts do? How should sharing > be done? How should network resources, like printers, be secured, but > easy for people to use and configure? Be complete. Think it all through. > And then convince us that RFC 4864 was wrong. > Barbara > > ***** > > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers. GA622 > > > _______________________________________________ > homegate mailing list > homegate@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate > > From jhw@apple.com Mon Feb 22 16:07:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7A128C48B for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:07:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.923 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.923 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.676, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 82DW3axJLJyE for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out3.apple.com (mail-out3.apple.com [17.254.13.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F270128C45A for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:07:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay16.apple.com (relay16.apple.com [17.128.113.55]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E37986094BC; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:09:30 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807137-b7bd4ae000000f0d-f4-4b831cbae3a5 Received: from il0602f-dhcp114.apple.com (il0602f-dhcp114.apple.com [17.206.50.114]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay16.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id B2.59.03853.ABC138B4; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:09:30 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: <4B831732.8030607@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:09:30 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4005D061-BFF2-463A-BAF7-A414051A5AC9@apple.com> References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com> <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no> <29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com> <4B75A404.20409@bennett.com> <57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com> <4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com> <6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> <27A8D8F5-411E-4B1E-AE68-2B3FAD684F58@muada.com> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA122BDDD3@crexc41p> <4B831732.8030607@cisco.com> To: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Cc: Ralph Droms , "Gunter Van de Velde \(gvandeve\)" , Eric Klein , Tony Hain , Brian E Carpenter , david.kessens@nsn.com Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:07:30 -0000 On Feb 22, 2010, at 15:45, Mark Townsley wrote: >=20 > Your document is being heralded as the primary reason at least one = very large service provider in the US, perhaps along with others, have = decided to firewall their residential IPv6 users. Was that your = intention with this document? Could you please comment on that here? I don't think it matters much today what their intentions were back in = the day. The fact is the draft is now widely interpreted as representative of the = consensus of the IETF working group comprising our best experts in IPv6 = operations, and it's in line with the consensus of the IPv6 service = provider community at large. The document says what it says, and it = speaks for itself. It will continue to be interpreted as representing = IETF consensus until it is updated or obsoleted to argue differently. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Mon Feb 22 16:13:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5379F28C472 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:13:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.379 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.379 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.380, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UN1hzS8r1jCM for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f213.google.com (mail-fx0-f213.google.com [209.85.220.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A393A841D for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm5 with SMTP id 5so3349371fxm.29 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:15:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IjdDOZVDltRPjkfgVnITL69CUL8tJ74oJKdOYYZcU9s=; b=JcIQXyAaZovjddqMlhPPX3V5CkJhpeRaNhytfwpX0XWfKQ98DjzxjSrcpWSEIl2SJc Ri+ZJp3RJU3M3IISr/R/FB8V6s8Hq9C6EwVVGQSMa1Ub342uh+1pGSHV5JLsVhL4HpMY n+t42/PJhAT0Cgzv59KJqS6Mpodk2xdph7xlQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=YcJrgEdEIxkX4fY/496FizSGH5Pk3O150xhrgheONw2bc1AvTCxRYFeWG2nG1thivi NUAK7YPEMTJN3EoCpxF01rq6sMcxigWQBmI9Lr2SzXbcWi1jVux1mOi9L2z03YJmW7As mQFAHhdzLXI4enQBEn8fF8Ad47f1190uabt2Y= Received: by 10.223.5.212 with SMTP id 20mr2067268faw.19.1266884117573; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:15:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 18sm6182703fks.5.2010.02.22.16.15.13 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:15:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B831E17.8030607@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:15:19 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Townsley References: <6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F69592118E96F109@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no><94CC6215-C38A-4630-9EB2-48A926C77E26@muada.com><6A141C5EC2D26E47B3128814D5F6959211927298E9@TNS-FBU-2E-016.corp.telenor.no><29DF5656-DD18-4AA7-BDC0-EF3535FB0555@apple.com><4B75A404.20409@bennett.com><57883837-FF45-441E-B163-0C0BDBAB624F@muada.com><4B75A6C0.1000103@bennett.com><6eae86941002121209v4046c67k45a048a3fb2688c3@mail.gmail.com> <27A8D8F5-411E-4B1E-AE68-2B3FAD684F58@muada.com> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA122BDDD3@crexc41p> <4B831732.8030607@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4B831732.8030607@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:47:06 -0800 Cc: homegate@ietf.org, Ralph Droms , "Gunter Van de Velde \(gvandeve\)" , ericlklein.ipv6@gmail.com, Tony Hain , david.kessens@nsn.com Subject: Re: [homegate] UDP in torrents X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:13:23 -0000 Mark, As you say, this is an Informational document, which means that it has no particular authority. The v6ops WG is still debating "Recommended Simple Security Capabilities in Customer Premises Equipment for Providing Residential IPv6 Internet Service" (draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-09), but that too is marked Informational as well as still being in draft. My *personal* opinion is that given the fact that most home users either don't bother about security or don't get it right, some sort of protection by default is desirable, but that should be a decision taken by each ISP for commercial, legal and ethical reasons in their own environment. It's also my personal opinion that home users should be able to switch off such protection if they want to. The great thing about IPv6 is that this issue is completely orthogonal to port mapping, so a user who decides to allow incoming port 80 for example will be able to run as many HTTP servers as s/he wants. You will definitely get a lot of opinions about this if you raise it on v6ops... Brian On 2010-02-23 12:45, Mark Townsley wrote: > > > Hi Barbara, > > Despite the fact that this is an RFC, it does not represent IETF > consensus. It is Informational, and as the second sentence in the > document states, "It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind." > > But, as you say, it is authored by a set of experts. I've cc'd them > here, along with the shepherding area director at the time. > > RFC 4864 opens with text that says there is a "perception that other > benefits [to NAT] exist" and that the document intends to show "how > Network Architecture Protection (NAP) using IPv6 can provide the same or > more benefits without the need for NAT." It also says that there are > "many serious disadvantages" to NAT. Given that context, I find it very > hard to see how the quoted text below becomes an actual recommendation > for an IPv6 firewall for a residential user. > > But, let's let the experts speak for themselves. > > Gunter, Tony, Ralph, Brian, Eric, David, > > Your document is being heralded as the primary reason at least one very > large service provider in the US, perhaps along with others, have > decided to firewall their residential IPv6 users. Was that your > intention with this document? Could you please comment on that here? > > Thanks, > > - Mark > > > On 2/12/10 11:20 PM, STARK, BARBARA H (ATTLABS) wrote: >> The requirements for IPv6 firewalling, inside my company, did not come >> from the Marketing side. It came from the people who have to minimize >> Help Desk calls, and the Security people. >> >> And the reason they have all concluded they need this firewall, is RFC >> 4864. >> >> > From RFC 4864: "To implement simple security for IPv6 in, for >> example, >> a DSL or cable >> modem-connected home network, the broadband gateway/router should be >> equipped with stateful firewall capabilities. These should provide a >> default configuration where incoming traffic is limited to return >> traffic resulting from outgoing packets (sometimes known as >> reflective session state). There should also be an easy interface >> that allows users to create inbound 'pinholes' for specific purposes >> such as online gaming." >> >> Perhaps this capability in the broadband gateway/router is really >> nothing but a feel-good placebo. That's not for me to say. I'm not the >> expert. But the author list of RFC 4864 does have some experts. Which >> causes RFC 4862 to be referenced all over the place as being the >> definitive recommendation on security. >> >> So, good or bad, the IETF has created the perception that this >> capability is a good thing. If it is a good thing, please finish up the >> simple-security draft. If it isn't a good thing, then the IETF needs to >> publish a different RFC that says what really, really is recommended. >> >> If the IETF decides to pursue the route of changing its recommendation, >> then the IETF needs to provide the complete picture for protecting the >> home network and all of the devices in it. Not some simplistic statement >> about how the recommendations in simple-security are no good or useless >> and all hosts need to be responsible for their own security. That's >> completely unhelpful. Tell us: What should hosts do? How should sharing >> be done? How should network resources, like printers, be secured, but >> easy for people to use and configure? Be complete. Think it all through. >> And then convince us that RFC 4864 was wrong. >> Barbara >> >> ***** >> >> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity >> to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, >> and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination >> or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this >> information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient >> is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the >> sender and delete the material from all computers. GA622 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> homegate mailing list >> homegate@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homegate >> >> > > From iljitsch@muada.com Tue Feb 23 02:21:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A2A3A81DF for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 02:21:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GKyqhg4BmdlA for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 02:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sequoia.muada.com (unknown [IPv6:2001:1af8:2:5::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F3CC3A7C1D for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 02:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from claw.it.uc3m.es (claw.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.54]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id o1NALjuG006924 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:21:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: <4B830FCB.9090503@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:23:06 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4B830FCB.9090503@cisco.com> To: Mark Townsley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Cc: homegate@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homegate] home network security (was UDP in torrents) X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:21:19 -0000 On 23 feb 2010, at 0:14, Mark Townsley wrote: > So, how many people run virus software on their Mac just because = Windows has virus problems? Some, but not many. Why? Not because people = do not want to be secure, but because, in general, security comes at = direct opposition to ease-of-use. It's even worse than that. Often security comes at direct opposition of = security measures. If you make users jump through too many hoops they'll = circumvent the security measures.= From martin.ellis@gmail.com Wed Feb 24 02:50:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: homegate@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981A128C104 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:50:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qAIXRVY+prUd for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:50:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f213.google.com (mail-fx0-f213.google.com [209.85.220.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE4228C0D0 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:50:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by fxm5 with SMTP id 5so5050340fxm.29 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:52:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-type; bh=cLKQQnsKCr3ShjCInfmBs9urCUn0iiGx4Y5ZITRFH4k=; b=azwPfPH3OmzhwBR3bjzvGe9nu5mQ4AHzEX4VaH9BnXRrcERxJYhjjecDJ2BdRtjZhg aWVq5el8YuQonQugs+GVht6XxczjCQecwb3W5c8BRs81GgLRS63w36vf2uI3+ojkYw8j Nrv//P2Mi7FL9n8to3h5+gh1/AXP/cguX13NA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; b=pQDxmBj21z77ivr+80phW7I4QITldokwCS4dE/OZDj+A5ZcCqV/SXkduX928k9iZ0X nLva03HRiTuU4Xmvgh0CPPURPHCkypQrMfaJgmFu1VWyV7ZA4wnKnN8f2GeYG8FeFdQb G2ITCLT5a/R+6LFgzGqG6Yp5EpqoizCWHoPuk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.4.197 with SMTP id 5mr2219139fas.1.1267008727985; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:52:07 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Ellis Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:51:45 +0000 Message-ID: <556cc64d1002240251p6c941807g475032ba4ff44805@mail.gmail.com> To: homegate@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [homegate] home router ICMP generation X-BeenThere: homegate@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Broadband Home Gateway Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:50:06 -0000 Hi, I've noticed that some of the home routers I've using in some measurement experiments are failing to generate ICMP Time Exceeded messages on receiving a packet with expired TTL. I'm wondering whether this is this a common default setting for home routers / DSL modems distributed by ISPs? Cheers, Martin