From nobody Tue May 23 07:21:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0305129576 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 07:21:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=townsley-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZmCrF1obezyn for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 07:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22e.google.com (mail-wm0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A08D5129AA8 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 07:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 7so26500638wmo.1 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 07:21:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=townsley-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=Hg3Hx4GWCn5gOBm49g0tnLtyC1nkVFOjk1qiLCusZYU=; b=yI2jxtFCxM5+3/7oZYERMYyjouF7rydZk+TBKmVKtpo8kO2QPxAGSlmUTs2ZMClSxX CaBvC4CfrzcmeoCHFaT9m5Kuu0I7ozVTkdrRvN7WtqgenCR0rK9MsLmbGalt3JwS29ph mN645zwZTfVU1qM793tl2a3dHO/3bUWhs5KU3FHAnQZy0CzSydbrqFIMMa986je1RK1g /Vdt/u0D43OA7lks+iE8EbE9rptZlTgrWkwkyW3sWIzpbFfEwcG5DBvC9SCsdemeWiKs 3bMFRw/WQOlU8mtBvyMK9Kyj1i/t9NlPkJhKZOW8jf5nCk+2Pb+7E65Hyb+tHrQr1enx F4vg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=Hg3Hx4GWCn5gOBm49g0tnLtyC1nkVFOjk1qiLCusZYU=; b=sResVpSvyFJeQqtPOFBDEO8Xnr7/1tKv1zaRJyQLYQtGZepRgIpR3a4MC79ore6aak qNPhSAA/ZiTDWRMF6joUHS+mX1skTurfMqV6Frz6idvZI4E9vpcnvmwT1znhTMQcCeZk Szp113VI8g/3Sb2HfBl5jaGrN11wCAchTHOEVWqXQ9zO8NBzqbsm5IxGGueFjw8Qw9X2 FHkWru/7gRg0HdG03zn/fpoeVJ7afkEGiMJz4Y7aRV/qRTMwXPCGYXbeH8irzTrFUnGx WWoNirLk0ehNiDGzgROyeIlDdB/ksEISgUfp0qGW50Mcd+EyG4ybOhpbYBBQ/VbSyXtR vF/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAJjLZOxoR+mKz+KeSSMe88C4noGZ6qlaZb2TwhGy3PMpkRdYti Zj/3btSxoq6zZBGe5kSr5g== X-Received: by 10.223.171.68 with SMTP id r4mr16139166wrc.67.1495549276561; Tue, 23 May 2017 07:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:420:44f0:1302:c408:e98d:72fc:e6a1? ([2001:420:44f0:1302:c408:e98d:72fc:e6a1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v7sm785804wrv.59.2017.05.23.07.21.15 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 May 2017 07:21:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Townsley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_77EE6E4D-0FEE-4842-BD72-AC46AC442510" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 16:21:14 +0200 To: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 14:21:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_77EE6E4D-0FEE-4842-BD72-AC46AC442510 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Babel Security Design Team, At IETF 98 in Chicago, after the presentation on = draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile, the issue of what to do about routing = security was brought up: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/98/minutes/minutes-98-homenet-00.txt = We ended with the action to create a =E2=80=9CSmall work team to look at = issue led by Ted. 5 people raised hands, including Ted, Pierre, Barbara = Stark=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. We don=E2=80=99t want to dictate specifically = all of the =E2=80=9Cissues=E2=80=9D at hand in this email, but they = included such items as: Network-wide shared keys vs bilateral key exchange Determination of the network perimeter If you are receiving this email, you have either been volunteered = yourself by signing up to this list or been cordially invited by your = chairs to be in the homenet security design team. If you signed up in = error or cannot participate, please unsubscribe. Ted has agreed to lead the group, including getting you together for = online meetings if that is necessary, edit documents, etc. He even said = something about writing code, which as pointed out by Juliusz in the = meeting, has been a hallmark of all homenet work published thus far. = It=E2=80=99s also a good way to ensure that the design team=E2=80=99s = recommendation is correct. The submission deadline for internet drafts is the 3rd of July, about 6 = weeks away. Before then it is highly desirable that the team spend some = time between now and then to write up a preliminary design, either in = the form of edits to the babel-profile document or (if the design is = substantial) as a standalone Homenet Perimeter Security document per our = milestones. We would expect to schedule substantive time during our face = to face meeting in Prague to discuss your design recommendation.=20 Sincerely, Mark & Ray Members of the Design Security Team: Original list of volunteers from Chicago: STARK, BARBARA H David Schinazi Pierre Pfister Chris Wood Ted Lemon > Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com> Juliusz Chroboczek James Woodyatt Donald Eastlake Jennifer Richards Margaret Cullen Others that have signed up to the list since: antonin.decimo@gmail.com cloos@jhcloos.com edward.guyot@gmail.com jehan.tremback@gmail.com ruben@vfn-nrw.de toke@toke.dk --Apple-Mail=_77EE6E4D-0FEE-4842-BD72-AC46AC442510 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Dear Babel = Security Design Team,

At IETF 98 in Chicago, after the presentation on = draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile, the issue of what to do about routing = security was brought up:


We ended = with the action to create a =E2=80=9CSmall work team to look at issue = led by Ted. 5 people raised hands, including Ted, Pierre, Barbara = Stark=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. We don=E2=80=99t want to dictate specifically = all of the =E2=80=9Cissues=E2=80=9D at hand in this email, but they = included such items as:

  • Network-wide = shared keys vs bilateral key exchange
  • Determination= of the network perimeter

If you are = receiving this email, you have either been volunteered yourself by = signing up to this list or been cordially invited by your chairs =  to be in the homenet security design team. If you signed up in = error or cannot participate, please unsubscribe.

Ted has = agreed to lead the group, including getting you together for online = meetings if that is necessary, edit documents, etc. He even said = something about writing code, which as pointed out by Juliusz in the = meeting, has been a hallmark of all homenet work published thus far. = It=E2=80=99s also a good way to ensure that the design team=E2=80=99s = recommendation is correct.

The submission deadline for internet drafts is the = 3rd of July, about 6 weeks away.  Before then it is highly = desirable that the team spend some time between now and then to write up = a preliminary design, either in the form of edits to the babel-profile = document or (if the design is substantial) as a standalone Homenet = Perimeter Security document per our milestones. We would expect to = schedule substantive time during our face to face meeting in Prague to = discuss your design recommendation.

Sincerely,

Mark & Ray

Members of the Design Security = Team:

Original = list of volunteers from Chicago:
STARK, = BARBARA H <bs7652@att.com>
David = Schinazi <dschinazi@apple.com>
Pierre = Pfister <pierre@darou.fr>
Chris Wood = <cawood@apple.com>
Ted Lemon = <mellon@fugue.com>
Russ White = <7riw77@gmail.com>
Juliusz = Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>
James = Woodyatt <jhw@google.com>
Donald = Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Jennifer = Richards <jennifer@painless-security.com>
Margaret = Cullen <mrcullen42@gmail.com>

Others that have signed up to the list = since:
antonin.decimo@gmail.com
cloos@jhcloos.com
edward.guyot@gmail.com
jehan.tremback@gmail.com
ruben@vfn-nrw.de
toke@toke.dk
= --Apple-Mail=_77EE6E4D-0FEE-4842-BD72-AC46AC442510-- From nobody Tue May 23 07:41:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B09C129420 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 07:41:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VJubDppc80lk for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 07:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x232.google.com (mail-qt0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB22A1293F4 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 07:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x232.google.com with SMTP id c13so129745158qtc.1 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 07:41:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=6qUxLaSFfflbPXrleqZiCtWQ63r4RSNRMc55/A5Gfko=; b=IFgF0YSu6pl+4VQ68ideibtAmt3OqAJSLQRhL+QzlN84/wE1HQv7WYdiWAwqhk/Brl 9g95Lw+n/ECFpux9Djpd5zj1ghsol0Ckk9zI+eFx0eMfYgbJhv47omX9y80D4OhMOajW hZedNcZbixqZCI7uxQRsPSSddd76cpGmBm1DVKcG/msVnXPuKOYQEgP6dwa5zKaNs9ve jrw/WXUx/BfZP6pT4rm0OO8U5Ech5OPyKyvdnC9bdJzQ3AjiAJx+GD5fDaRPWdsxuOs+ FkNZ10nivgT9AWLT41wOgdJ90pZIm+wMboEjoEUGVq41E3bMK47S6PFb0M6aYKNn8U2+ Hsyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=6qUxLaSFfflbPXrleqZiCtWQ63r4RSNRMc55/A5Gfko=; b=R8Kh0E6uNd8IO/puE74T8OKge7GPtn9ybl+ka6P1/PMJtPCW4/ZqtVhEltUz7062UL YQQ8kn6q8BqGVNg6o6IUA0+GHbOvEsk2c8Ku1fVUxY1fucnCzQ+TXXjFi7MxZ2SU4ob7 Kf0J5mCgPLt6UGYp0lcd+lJjguA6sU/zsx4LtDELQU2q/HuXPCjPOVrRQ/iDliTd2tht 2IrTF8UXdN6z/gH78uAwkGCyWOYjOIQ33/3J5jaG078QjAj+4440a9/oy0gfq0ihVnzr UIQ2jNBVuqcTBVMVRZNzjLmwmSvffi2KtLnektED4PsY5ptsHoloWnhZBZE31/Zzz77E e6mA== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAXLe/xRyd9MdY+EsknqYDnYMCJe//yCHqjXN5ZBNL0VI6souZc T2G0pqqB1Ceybm1o6hj3ZQ== X-Received: by 10.237.37.100 with SMTP id w33mr30089881qtc.14.1495550479661; Tue, 23 May 2017 07:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.228] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y188sm535280qkb.49.2017.05.23.07.41.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 May 2017 07:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 10:41:16 -0400 Cc: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> To: Mark Townsley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 14:41:22 -0000 Thanks, Mark. To be honest, I do not know where the discussion has landed at this = point. One of the key requirements for me to write any code is that = there be a conclusion on how to do unicast hellos. I sort of thought = that that had happened, but I didn't see a clear conclusion because I = got busy on some other stuff right when that discussion seemed to stop. Can anybody else on the team talk about what's going on there? From nobody Tue May 23 08:54:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9694F1293EC for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 08:54:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2QrYl0Ig4snm for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 08:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.portfast.net (hydrogen.portfast.net [188.246.200.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 939A2128BA2 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 08:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [46.227.151.81] (port=50669 helo=rays-mbp.local) by hydrogen.portfast.net ([188.246.200.2]:465) with esmtpsa (fixed_plain:ray@bellis.me.uk) (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1dDC8m-000484-Cu (Exim 4.72) for homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org (return-path ); Tue, 23 May 2017 16:54:32 +0100 To: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> From: Ray Bellis Message-ID: <426fd153-7e1a-8167-8951-b4b54c32929d@bellis.me.uk> Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 16:54:34 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 15:54:38 -0000 On 23/05/2017 15:41, Ted Lemon wrote: > To be honest, I do not know where the discussion has landed at this > point. One of the key requirements for me to write any code is that > there be a conclusion on how to do unicast hellos. At a higher level, ISTR there was some contention as to whether bilateral key exchange (AIUI requiring unicast hellos) is even necessary and/or appropriate for the Homenet profile? Ray From nobody Tue May 23 09:01:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E55129AEA for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 09:01:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.404 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.404 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NQWoP0tkipwd for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 09:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-in7.apple.com (mail-out7.apple.com [17.151.62.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A701C1298BA for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 09:00:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=apple.com; s=mailout2048s; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@apple.com; t=1495555258; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-id:To:Cc:MIME-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-reply-to:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=pb33y+YZKiO2PSF5rcwZWjUtG6mLl2CXt+hRyA81US8=; b=XOFCH1MHYKpDw1XF1VGjt1YMQnKcaQrkYWv28shxHbrS36DKt878Q9msIStXVfc1 wtveXTAgw3kl9z9BRqtsgAnOfeTkuVi7HxSbWerweBpNhdqefsEU2G7sqo8H7g1e 7Iz2Dga1WK7/kXG3vpYAxTTFAI0IQg6iN5CSNKwkHukdUQQqW1iF6qx/BgmKoGkv HFoKu+sxVLLyadZuomtrx90DoqqfgHlc21+ngSTi45QrLMrUBC9UlyS8FfW8bH6g gAJloQbYp9n8c2W1bfmyrcDLQOJdObkGzi6Qb8G7MGG1tMdlHIQa49rNy5He/xhS SbEOFcW+Eau+BMJPmTYjMA==; Received: from relay8.apple.com (relay8.apple.com [17.128.113.102]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail-in7.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id 36.33.07949.ABC54295; Tue, 23 May 2017 09:00:58 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11973e16-0c7789a000001f0d-0a-59245cba08c4 Received: from kencur (kencur.apple.com [17.151.62.38]) by relay8.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 33.9B.21490.ABC54295; Tue, 23 May 2017 09:00:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from [17.153.69.132] (unknown [17.153.69.132]) by kencur.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170210 64bit (built Feb 10 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0OQE00KZBXSWMP10@kencur.apple.com>; Tue, 23 May 2017 09:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi In-reply-to: <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 09:00:26 -0700 Cc: Mark Townsley , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org Message-id: References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> To: Ted Lemon , Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCYprsrRiXS4OUhZYubvcIW81uXsVlM O/CAyeLNmiNMDiweTReWsXssWfKTyWPxlreMHvenTWQKYInisklJzcksSy3St0vgyri6nLvg B1fF1Bf7WRsY73N0MXJySAiYSNw8t5C1i5GLQ0hgDZNE/4QjbDCJ2auvgdlCAisYJVZe5gGx eQUEJX5MvsfSxcjBwSwgL3HwvCxImFlAS+L7o1YWiDnNTBIvH+1jBUkIC0hLdF24C2W7S6z/ 8podpJcNqOHAGiOQMKeArcTpL51gJSwCqhK3bp+AGu8oMeWXFMRWG4njPVuYIa4pkrhz6AsT iC0i4CSx98NzRoiLZSVuzb7EDHKChMAONomDv04xTmAUnoXk6lkIV89CcvUCRuZVjEK5iZk5 upl55nqJBQU5qXrJ+bmbGEGBP91ObAfjw1VWhxgFOBiVeHgTHFQihVgTy4orcw8xSnOwKInz 2gLjRkggPbEkNTs1tSC1KL6oNCe1+BAjEwenVAPjLiXl0KMekX/OuycozJyh9WaTzc6/7gcW zX56PCTk89w7ny9Lar9ouXXGufbA+/lm3CcWm21er+v38Clv3kbThl+ll/4a6of1cl9cKc8d cc3Hgf+NcmytftwdjZj0udyKzkadf97fuG7RGXn07Hebb1FBuZczme5z7z5yUSGr/9zmJNVf Aj+ilViKMxINtZiLihMB4c65bF0CAAA= X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprDIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OTXdXjEqkwaazshY3e4Ut5rcuY7OY duABk8WbNUeYHFg8mi4sY/dYsuQnk8fiLW8ZPe5Pm8gUwBLFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlXF1OXfB D66KqS/2szYw3ufoYuTkkBAwkZi9+hobiC0ksIJRYuVlHhCbV0BQ4sfkeyxdjBwczALyEgfP y4KEmQW0JL4/agUKcwGVNzNJvHy0jxUkISwgLdF14S6U7S6x/strdpBeNqCGA2uMQMKcArYS p790gpWwCKhK3Lp9Amq8o8SUX1IQW20kjvdsYYa4pkjizqEvTCC2iICTxN4PzxkhLpaVuDX7 EvMERoFZSA6dhXDoLCSHLmBkXsUoUJSak1hpoZdYUJCTqpecn7uJERSoDYVpOxibllsdYhTg YFTi4U1wUIkUYk0sK67MPcQowcGsJMJr5AUU4k1JrKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+xFgFdP5EZinR5Hxg FOWVxBuamBiYGBubGRubm5hTRVhJnNcfGNtCAumJJanZqakFqUUwy5k4OKUaGHvt7n1stBad qexuvbHJ6fmu0mOvmhcEOKzdJcyuJTVju8//U8q5Dat23AmYanuL6/xut3d/lrrzT3APaJlj mRPdUWC4bMK2q+qdCwPPKfK/ZGu4qhdgvSKVUe/ioaL9kQfcjSzqtKctFDMwtypW/GLSFpHn 92zmbq1DEQ4nrzB9Or/Fac3W80osxRmJhlrMRcWJAO+iE3mvAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 16:01:04 -0000 Ted, Juliusz can correct me if he disagrees, but my understanding of the current status of unicast hellos in Babel is: 1) The community agrees that we want to support them 2) The community hasn't yet come to a consensus on how to encode them, proposals included a new TLV, a flag in the existing TLV, and a sub-TLV. I think we were waiting for proponents of each alternative to write code. I'm hoping to work on that in a couple weeks after our developer conference. While the Homenet Babel profile could technically be achieved without unicast hellos, I think they expand our options, and since they are at the top of the Babel WG's agenda, it's worth waiting for them. David > On May 23, 2017, at 07:41, Ted Lemon wrote: > > Thanks, Mark. > > To be honest, I do not know where the discussion has landed at this point. One of the key requirements for me to write any code is that there be a conclusion on how to do unicast hellos. I sort of thought that that had happened, but I didn't see a clear conclusion because I got busy on some other stuff right when that discussion seemed to stop. > > Can anybody else on the team talk about what's going on there? > > > _______________________________________________ > Homenet-babel-sec mailing list > Homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet-babel-sec From nobody Tue May 23 10:00:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C88129568; Tue, 23 May 2017 10:00:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mmQ2CnPwQmdc; Tue, 23 May 2017 10:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5987D129BBD; Tue, 23 May 2017 10:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v4NH0cUJ004037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 23 May 2017 19:00:39 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id v4NH0crh026073; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:00:38 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F9CEB205; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:00:38 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id dVtN2NK-c13d; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:00:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 95CA4EB204; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:00:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.irif.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dDDAi-0002gc-BH; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:00:36 +0200 Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 19:00:36 +0200 Message-ID: <7i7f1733uz.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon Cc: Mark Townsley , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Tue, 23 May 2017 19:00:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Tue, 23 May 2017 19:00:38 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59246AB6.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59246AB6.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59246AB6.002 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59246AB6.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59246AB6.002 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59246AB6.001 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 17:00:43 -0000 CC-ing the Babel list, at least Matthieu is interested and not subscribed to h-b-s. > To be honest, I do not know where the discussion has landed at this > point. One of the key requirements for me to write any code is that > there be a conclusion on how to do unicast hellos. Ted, please assume that we (the Babel community) will do the Babel security work in a reasonably timely manner. What somebody needs to do is work out the HNCP-related details, notably signalling the requirement for auth on a given link and the authentication keys. > Can anybody else on the team talk about what's going on there? Will reply to David's mail. -- Juliusz From nobody Tue May 23 10:05:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBE1129BB7; Tue, 23 May 2017 10:05:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xuKy9h5ddZWG; Tue, 23 May 2017 10:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7393C129BBD; Tue, 23 May 2017 10:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v4NH5CuO005673 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 23 May 2017 19:05:12 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id v4NH58wt027232; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:05:08 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38698EB200; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:05:08 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id gIaeDe2Fhjwb; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:05:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AD877EB204; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:05:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.irif.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dDDF2-0002gw-Ds; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:05:04 +0200 Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 19:05:04 +0200 Message-ID: <7i60gr33nj.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: David Schinazi Cc: Ted Lemon , Mark Townsley , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org, Antonin =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E9ci?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?mo?= In-Reply-To: References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Tue, 23 May 2017 19:05:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Tue, 23 May 2017 19:05:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59246BC8.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59246BC4.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59246BC8.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59246BC4.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59246BC8.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59246BC4.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 17:05:21 -0000 > 1) The community agrees that we want to support them I think there's a fair number of people who are. I, for one, would like to see them defined, although I'm not sure if they are really necessary -- I don't see an attack model that targets Hellos specifically. > 2) The community hasn't yet come to a consensus on how to encode them, > proposals included a new TLV, a flag in the existing TLV, and a sub-TLV. I don't think we considered sub-TLVs, although this might be an option now that we have mandatory bits. > While the Homenet Babel profile could technically be achieved without > unicast hellos, I think they expand our options, and since they are at the > top of the Babel WG's agenda, it's worth waiting for them. Agreed. Antonin Décimo (in copy of this mail) will be doing an internship on Babel this July. The plan is to have him implement a prototype of Stenberg-Schinazi security for Babel (unicast everything, protect using DTLS). My current plan is to ask him to do without unicast Hellos for now (this means that Hellos will be unprotected), although it's up to Antonin -- perhaps he'll want to work on unicast Hellos first. -- Juliusz From nobody Tue May 23 10:09:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E539129BDA; Tue, 23 May 2017 10:09:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jf8HEtormbt5; Tue, 23 May 2017 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45E4A129BD7; Tue, 23 May 2017 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v4NH9AJ8007213 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 23 May 2017 19:09:10 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id v4NH9AmY028558; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:09:10 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF37FEB205; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:09:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id wwfA_CZUWBXG; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:09:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D1B11EB200; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:09:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.irif.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1dDDIz-0002gz-Iw; Tue, 23 May 2017 19:09:09 +0200 Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 19:09:09 +0200 Message-ID: <7i4lwb33gq.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: David Schinazi Cc: Ted Lemon , Mark Townsley , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Tue, 23 May 2017 19:09:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Tue, 23 May 2017 19:09:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59246CB6.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59246CB6.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59246CB6.001 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59246CB6.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59246CB6.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59246CB6.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 17:09:20 -0000 > I think we were waiting for proponents of each alternative to write code. Oh, I missed this bit. I was going to bully everyone into working on that, but then Gwendoline and Matthieu convinced me to add mandatory bits to the spec, so I've been working on that, as I'd like the mandatory bits work to be ready before we introduce more changes. FWIW, mandatory bits are implemented in both babeld and sbabeld, and I've got the spec written down. Unfortunately, I did it in an obsolete git branch, so I need to do some merging and wordsmithing before I can push. (Automatic git merges on natural language documents are not quite reliable.) -- Juliusz From nobody Tue May 23 11:55:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6BA8129BC6; Tue, 23 May 2017 11:55:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V0hKkwcMFu5H; Tue, 23 May 2017 11:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB5C91270AC; Tue, 23 May 2017 11:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id b84so36463129wmh.0; Tue, 23 May 2017 11:55:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nlmZFtI87mNWmncXs/rvaqVjueL4DlOdkxI/dSVQW4o=; b=h2QCCS9KzZ8lzo3Ripd4Wpr4AQfc3E1CspBQHWrYpRRG6g0c7WRQuca+93sX023Nq1 XYZsEF76ylnAS5cFbiWa3tcF3tAc7G0sUBXX8HLxULbUkefHaQStTWSVy9kWqF9U7zTx BNihINbnNbVTDiBbp41glwCqSZULtfmK+0vGSzeDnaUrg5MOH4+SFoJpjTVU8ZsPmN6L AL2O8Axn4jn3p7o2e6h67lhHyBof4YFuThXYPCRTKQVyH83kN8sF1SquN7c6aYbe9sbF zpa5Gv1Zd7+Y2kR3JGomFvvltL7fNT1jj1kqP2QIZldUwqD7834x292Umiagsa1RlpQ2 7SEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nlmZFtI87mNWmncXs/rvaqVjueL4DlOdkxI/dSVQW4o=; b=pRD1tvmr+xQHdS7WpmQl2fabiumpZ8u9a6zIlrKBgWL1Qo5sbDgydGr8IOto7ieaf8 aSo33vDA0EJh1UFPbC66KYKG95epYKa65z9g7cevjtsCPGD38gOfwOEGOE/SLtTtxHjL axCiurOoMvIo6qUrI8L10CqYnf8Tfr/n8TWZsia1SWL3bcVs+puhWhxr9an00tW6JEjF gdO0KMAeCVFj/ExdUKMe+NIbMMog6nL/e06zoLA/4Ag/nhxUjUZAtSHoI6Lftkw65x7R NBwBiI0iyDWLo30zI4msLRMdNhxp1/wfuFkStmc1iVGZwdBXUeiJE9H60L1Hg7G2gMdU 3wPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcCceGFTEjVC4udG3uyQVaGA5CpGkIO1XSNUgzHlt5BsubKMXuye ytMOq0EKXuLH7JpmkdtNIOQei3D6Zw== X-Received: by 10.223.150.167 with SMTP id u36mr17065663wrb.184.1495565710092; Tue, 23 May 2017 11:55:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.134.131 with HTTP; Tue, 23 May 2017 11:55:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7i4lwb33gq.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> <7i4lwb33gq.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Jehan Tremback Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 11:55:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: David Schinazi , Mark Townsley , Ted Lemon , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045f4e0ce3771a0550358681" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 18:55:14 -0000 --f403045f4e0ce3771a0550358681 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey, I just read through the minutes, wondering if someone has a concise definition of the threat model we are trying to guard against. I assume it's to prevent attackers from showing up and sending out bogus routing messages to bork or DOS the network? -Jehan On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > > I think we were waiting for proponents of each alternative to write code. > > Oh, I missed this bit. > > I was going to bully everyone into working on that, but then Gwendoline > and Matthieu convinced me to add mandatory bits to the spec, so I've been > working on that, as I'd like the mandatory bits work to be ready before we > introduce more changes. > > FWIW, mandatory bits are implemented in both babeld and sbabeld, and I've > got the spec written down. Unfortunately, I did it in an obsolete git > branch, so I need to do some merging and wordsmithing before I can push. > (Automatic git merges on natural language documents are not quite > reliable.) > > -- Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > Homenet-babel-sec mailing list > Homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet-babel-sec > --f403045f4e0ce3771a0550358681 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey, I just read through the minutes, wondering if someone= has a concise definition of the threat model we are trying to guard agains= t. I assume it's to prevent attackers from showing up and sending out b= ogus routing messages to bork or DOS the network?

-Jehan=

On Tu= e, May 23, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> wrot= e:
> I think we were = waiting for proponents of each alternative to write code.

Oh, I missed this bit.

I was going to bully everyone into working on that, but then Gwendoline
and Matthieu convinced me to add mandatory bits to the spec, so I've be= en
working on that, as I'd like the mandatory bits work to be ready before= we
introduce more changes.

FWIW, mandatory bits are implemented in both babeld and sbabeld, and I'= ve
got the spec written down.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, I did it in an obsolete git=
branch, so I need to do some merging and wordsmithing before I can push. (Automatic git merges on natural language documents are not quite reliable.= )

-- Juliusz

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--f403045f4e0ce3771a0550358681-- From nobody Tue May 23 12:01:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A4D12EA42 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:01:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t-p9-gI3CnfO for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22b.google.com (mail-qk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28E2212EA64 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id a72so137659940qkj.2 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:01:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=tjTZPhCETzRhOzOFa2iY+P7MgVOdtR7YIIxHZ49uLk4=; b=CtHumqddossDYE8rIIkgPDXY41mRbvXxhAcpCjkD4L0bmXP0z198pvQ72rA+K0/uTw NLU0dRZiXVRGWd9gcZYggsHXafvGkavvPCnlyZm1So9bFHkEnNniIFFrb7JT2mWMjagk HKX0V1CSzrOh9lqYQg4Pn9XPg+0Gww/JCz6saW7Tcc8fQ0IBuKkCU9+QK6b90QQGx5s7 gALWu6FPrjdRu6E8IqqwlHhdoBt9K/hKYBjws5/kOEnlrFHx3jgLsadqzp8Jypr7RFUr z3W2EyeBUDKLylgm0xI0EcSwf6h6E/kWw7bEzC7crURFEzgntjFNAFt3ZbRYh91AWKWg 1R1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=tjTZPhCETzRhOzOFa2iY+P7MgVOdtR7YIIxHZ49uLk4=; b=Wzqt9kESjnun+fvbeT04vmaqhTiyWrXxT4Pfz1RjtpgrgfRFwaE+NgInsbZiA1A0en f+6hlgC6gaWLHQfUNYIOg4Czm4LdB5i2qjvgMzmGJHD2Rw4psLWOT0R3aaHRl0FRa6qp e+iiDSvJLP+4tLhDZtqA7yQIF6x7iSCN33J6XiusW0gfLQKjQrSWYMazaI3ez/W72v4Z Tk2UfD+S0bzYOLg4JCR1iDgv5poRoxIOFLmFr/8oYRhurbGX2tLdAlIeTVXMAgU/3kde VE5cUTbtAEkQM/lE8wfkJcEqohVTXraTNso3CCwdKXXzJoCigeXGp2fu5PLS11xHxCB1 +3lw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcBtDDHWLuMfLgcmgIwoe4Simrcslj5OpHeWLOklOmDcGr1cZeV9 ZpELZTFg/Hv095qs X-Received: by 10.55.15.200 with SMTP id 69mr28499011qkp.197.1495566071328; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.228] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u51sm1020226qta.56.2017.05.23.12.01.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 May 2017 12:01:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <19B58F06-EBF3-4F2D-BC99-9A27E9008017@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8AE6FFF2-2A88-4534-9FF7-182FCD1380A7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 15:01:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: <7i7f1733uz.wl-jch@irif.fr> Cc: Mark Townsley , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org To: Juliusz Chroboczek References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> <7i7f1733uz.wl-jch@irif.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 19:01:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8AE6FFF2-2A88-4534-9FF7-182FCD1380A7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On May 23, 2017, at 1:00 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > Ted, please assume that we (the Babel community) will do the Babel > security work in a reasonably timely manner. What somebody needs to do is > work out the HNCP-related details, notably signalling the requirement for > auth on a given link and the authentication keys. Okay, thanks, that's good feedback. I will focus on that. --Apple-Mail=_8AE6FFF2-2A88-4534-9FF7-182FCD1380A7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On May 23, 2017, at 1:00 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> = wrote:
Ted, please assume = that we (the Babel community) will do the Babel
security work in a reasonably timely manner. =  What somebody needs to do is
work out the = HNCP-related details, notably signalling the requirement for
auth on a given link and the authentication = keys.

Okay, = thanks, that's good feedback.   I will focus on that.

= --Apple-Mail=_8AE6FFF2-2A88-4534-9FF7-182FCD1380A7-- From nobody Tue May 23 12:04:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E5FB1274D2 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:04:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 56bAIx3jN14f for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22a.google.com (mail-qt0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B572129411 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id v27so136609773qtg.2 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:04:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Edofs60oHDFV8/9s87D4j/p3iS3fS7re2MgBvApeTCg=; b=0xyhBupqW7jTsVFWF8QVKEy/F5MnS0Ch8sTlV618C8CR7sPkF4GM5/E/8qOCVCDg1F vok2IUgzo0hRu/4sC3Io1R32fcHK2lFFJ/zjU96doTBLO1PofWLJHRPLqJvyVLVO6O8D PRddn2jfb6iOMLBTX2J0gGYSvYMGVRHE+p4X2Gv1HLMOnPmXxeKcY7glHFV0Otl1T6Kv yT21EdimtegRLwe+9VNG0LS1CP4WufsUp9apxiT/g3GA106UYYDWDeVyqU3529N/A5IJ aoSFeczfW9il/MnTDi7vVcZhbyv/V5dGXFbv6MXN5J84by58tP5DUClHjrLE0tzQpOU8 89mQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Edofs60oHDFV8/9s87D4j/p3iS3fS7re2MgBvApeTCg=; b=Wyit6SB0mNvzN2TAPKmgI3BK7B+wdq/11fuOErTDtHRXcdJ2cQ2u3TX5wxd0XgnDPG N0lHMfTzre5xkdI9ueIkNscEuDhAIWPlojJ7arngi4iuTKjB1+rAm5muv0mOL82u7Cjr WsbELfUF46AXWT78Hep2xF1wsRvjVPiPYL7AR5ZtIuIZWioFftYyZBkVInyWAMn7DcdJ pmwgXjFLtrJIR5orQKPdTkIcp9a9JXH8r8oOWxdrSE/bHla8/d5qdchyxvtj/Ia4QYcn GtoiYHBmvWYW74WE1JD1V4bYmeH91l/Sloro5Zp5eWkr2rlSGLXJr3mtydOzwBZWLhVw gkdw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcBRUbRnMr93FazJHW5c8e3LSNLf1dZSldqJ8m4M05yfLECu7i7V BvA/6UDW5T68a+1/ X-Received: by 10.237.53.149 with SMTP id c21mr31213816qte.191.1495566245152; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.228] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u129sm1001558qkf.59.2017.05.23.12.04.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 May 2017 12:04:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8DB0740A-06F0-45ED-AE5C-670E21219834" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 15:04:02 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , David Schinazi , Mark Townsley , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org To: Jehan Tremback References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> <7i4lwb33gq.wl-jch@irif.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 19:04:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8DB0740A-06F0-45ED-AE5C-670E21219834 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On May 23, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Jehan Tremback = wrote: > Hey, I just read through the minutes, wondering if someone has a = concise definition of the threat model we are trying to guard against. I = assume it's to prevent attackers from showing up and sending out bogus = routing messages to bork or DOS the network? I don't think it's necessarily going to be possible to _prevent_ = attackers from showing up and sending out bogus routing messages. = However, what we probably _can_ do is to be able to know which router = sent which update, so that we can see, if there is an attack, where it = is coming from. It would be good to game this out more, though. We had a pretty good = discussion in the meeting, and I think I sent out a summary message = about it afterwards, but we haven't gone past that. --Apple-Mail=_8DB0740A-06F0-45ED-AE5C-670E21219834 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On May 23, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Jehan Tremback <jehan.tremback@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey, I just read through the minutes, = wondering if someone has a concise definition of the threat model we are = trying to guard against. I assume it's to prevent attackers from showing = up and sending out bogus routing messages to bork or DOS the = network?

I don't think it's necessarily going to be = possible to _prevent_ attackers from showing up and sending out bogus = routing messages.   However, what we probably _can_ do is to be = able to know which router sent which update, so that we can see, if = there is an attack, where it is coming from.

It would be good to game this out more, = though.   We had a pretty good discussion in the meeting, and I = think I sent out a summary message about it afterwards, but we haven't = gone past that.

= --Apple-Mail=_8DB0740A-06F0-45ED-AE5C-670E21219834-- From nobody Tue May 23 12:07:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8B4112ACAF for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:06:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QaTUhT4jTHU8 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x236.google.com (mail-qt0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4843A12EA54 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x236.google.com with SMTP id v27so136683923qtg.2 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:06:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=8GDRO10daeX6waRO005thPcIR872thS6kDG1WrXWeTQ=; b=qiVXhZUDGPswR34O+yenKQVP1boK+P0KXRhdtGg/NhpMeT7Zzuf0MeTObkLwMHSQ1E 5EQyMGsRNINcCIqJyWordCvFFSVjVOKyVrgoyV0bRtJlkqaqvRxhOQXgZn3BYM1JRXwS fF02y4gLa6csoXmFA5JgnzlBLQsqR94bW0ivROnZV/60kBEL1CeZC8C+bOa/ZLld5cwF y9+MqhLmGk5P5YMyTpzN1NNxZPUOmzP13cPrkkQHKq1rRumPrRSMMJo4Ws6d3UdzekHq MOv99E4DXYMJOjThPBsvPUaBvXwaa3UTl5a+eFfn1AFslsjMzWVW+O84O/YIW8Nc24kp oiOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=8GDRO10daeX6waRO005thPcIR872thS6kDG1WrXWeTQ=; b=dpumJdsWcjEs7uz7K+9+JRkonGfD8P2bKIzB2drrsI9252LLxPNYOXaMpjBWZsG5TP i4h/hGg/BT6wjlC+6yh9kn7lL0ZRRQxxjKbdI76KAMQsDUH1rHCFIZSoXMMngZMBp3G9 1lGLvGJzN+r2HPpHZzqEGTKsmOHCoZQrXTvr32BRkbXjtBR0vFncEIwdYUGcxpGsOTFZ TCgoUZ3ljDy7extLoxPQlsXcx7QMkW0tvxoVPge1bISkY5Yf0WwxzKxifHIbWpFySiaQ qzuHNQhDoFDTt/cUBiXXZy5geAPc/CvKYdci1rwnSkGfKn1qzVahDwMJn0yzAa2lUGwQ 1yVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAhQqgqOq2jljGXcL3AkGdVSs+2GpRM6FBR7AFta+Ib5OkT484V zxdJKZCyiSKKwg1x X-Received: by 10.200.42.166 with SMTP id b35mr31658843qta.239.1495566415403; Tue, 23 May 2017 12:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.228] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q34sm1029362qte.44.2017.05.23.12.06.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 May 2017 12:06:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <246CDF99-F236-44FD-9C9D-7C7E4B63D12A@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CDA4C15C-EAB4-4F18-9DBA-DBA51C75AECC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 15:06:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , David Schinazi , Mark Townsley , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org To: Jehan Tremback References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> <7i4lwb33gq.wl-jch@irif.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 19:06:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CDA4C15C-EAB4-4F18-9DBA-DBA51C75AECC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On May 23, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Jehan Tremback = wrote: > Hey, I just read through the minutes, wondering if someone has a = concise definition of the threat model we are trying to guard against. I = assume it's to prevent attackers from showing up and sending out bogus = routing messages to bork or DOS the network? Here are the notes that we took in the break-out session after the main = meeting: https://github.com/bhstark2/babel-security/blob/master/chicago-notes.md = There's also a file there where we were going to put in our thoughts = about the threat model, so that we could try to come up with an idea of = what we are all talking about. However, it looks like nobody's = actually done anything to that document. --Apple-Mail=_CDA4C15C-EAB4-4F18-9DBA-DBA51C75AECC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On May 23, 2017, at 2:55 PM, Jehan Tremback <jehan.tremback@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey, I just read through the minutes, = wondering if someone has a concise definition of the threat model we are = trying to guard against. I assume it's to prevent attackers from showing = up and sending out bogus routing messages to bork or DOS the = network?

Here are the notes that we took in the = break-out session after the main meeting:

https://github.com/bhstark2/babel-security/blob/master/chicago-= notes.md

There's also a file there where we were going to put in our = thoughts about the threat model, so that we could try to come up with an = idea of what we are all talking about.   However, it looks like = nobody's actually done anything to that document.
= --Apple-Mail=_CDA4C15C-EAB4-4F18-9DBA-DBA51C75AECC-- From nobody Tue May 23 13:29:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A55F7128954 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 13:28:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=toke.dk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X30sLsLIftOw for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 13:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.toke.dk (mail.toke.dk [52.28.52.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D481D120227 for ; Tue, 23 May 2017 13:28:57 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=toke.dk; s=20161023; t=1495571329; bh=uhEHQhxKvYNIQ82cjGp58RUGvzMK52l0muqHJ0fFhPM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=qek3VxKfYqC9goztQg37BF53X5pw7PVLkWASFdu77yB1P35ZjgznLq5FecYz+mySf 7F/MX/0syaP0X5oJxfgE7qDP/MVsheilo04opYeqPvvb5BwxXk2CxbzDMyQsHtA0J2 1h1EjG8pHyAzeC+t4YWoX/g0iY2wEXMBLU0WSKKIv2o22X7p3yIrI2vl7V7Ndo2uJ5 NFawKKLK9zjmP5TYmgmlX30ePRtKn0MaIU/olKhmDn4EDK26mnnXcBLJJdQI93kLD8 RalsSKNzd/QbH0NeoyEG4h6x+Aah26pxPOXBfWhA5Ix60gBzdtiYDGS3Ro1m5Wj69m FuDaWRZ+dn2jA== To: David Schinazi Cc: Ted Lemon , Juliusz Chroboczek , Mark Townsley , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 22:28:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: (David Schinazi's message of "Tue, 23 May 2017 09:00:26 -0700") X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: <874lwbtj0e.fsf@alrua-karlstad> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 20:29:00 -0000 David Schinazi writes: > 2) The community hasn't yet come to a consensus on how to encode them, > proposals included a new TLV, a flag in the existing TLV, and a > sub-TLV. This is definitely on my list on things to add to the Bird babel code... Haven't gotten around to it as of yet, though. -Toke From nobody Wed May 24 10:38:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BC9129435; Wed, 24 May 2017 10:38:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5zqXBrzNYtED; Wed, 24 May 2017 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97D011201F8; Wed, 24 May 2017 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0083689.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0083689.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v4OHEurP045996; Wed, 24 May 2017 13:38:11 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0083689.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2ane46h3ug-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 24 May 2017 13:38:11 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v4OHcAGh014562; Wed, 24 May 2017 13:38:10 -0400 Received: from alpi132.aldc.att.com (alpi132.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.2]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v4OHc0f3014402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 May 2017 13:38:02 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.152]) by alpi132.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 24 May 2017 17:37:46 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.82]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.152]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Wed, 24 May 2017 13:37:46 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: Ted Lemon , Jehan Tremback CC: "babel@ietf.org" , Mark Townsley , David Schinazi , Juliusz Chroboczek , "homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! Thread-Index: AQHS0/fEja6OLFFKFkuUjXij+MO+KqIDwBsQ Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 17:37:46 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DB71BCB@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> <7i4lwb33gq.wl-jch@irif.fr> <246CDF99-F236-44FD-9C9D-7C7E4B63D12A@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <246CDF99-F236-44FD-9C9D-7C7E4B63D12A@fugue.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.92.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-05-24_12:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1703280000 definitions=main-1705240082 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 17:38:21 -0000 > Here are the notes that we took in the break-out session after the main m= eeting: > https://github.com/bhstark2/babel-security/blob/master/chicago-notes.md=20 > There's also a file there where we were going to put in our thoughts abou= t the threat model, so that we could try to come up with an idea of what we= are all talking about. =A0 However, it looks like nobody's actually done a= nything to that document. Please let me know if I should add anyone to this github. BTW, I'm on vacation this week and will not be particularly responsive duri= ng this time. Barbara From nobody Wed May 24 12:02:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854D6129435 for ; Wed, 24 May 2017 12:02:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yKy-wjkju_MZ for ; Wed, 24 May 2017 12:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x234.google.com (mail-qt0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6CBD12700F for ; Wed, 24 May 2017 12:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x234.google.com with SMTP id v27so163448854qtg.2 for ; Wed, 24 May 2017 12:02:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=AyyjoPbBYH+7I5jw1EMgbTm2VBvRoKBarXjULF37s8o=; b=DWli04U/Yijy8Llu5WlRX0CcXZY3PIIb67kvjX5QhH682fm5jmW8qw9YesAdzWk5Az os/nWfNbBI7Y6bNlux9ubtvmqmPMkoLaIiGu1nxnEjpymOTpJMikvOm2j0b8vXnKM+6O VD6aMYStIZkSF3WddTeYNi6RFgkeTY4WVqIrlS6c8tjiEK/dpMhusF4qV/L/j47nNmaa Wq/44l4o+aEopXrSeuQ8Pphy2uGVrDfECggnFX8JeCGsR5ID4jvAjBy6qoNGhaW78xQ/ DvJkM4F7ainIPxoBWCQMbhzPx2fPnJ7kx+Sy4LsOImFQCIbbeufgMzn4L0TrJjs8w+dd aI5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=AyyjoPbBYH+7I5jw1EMgbTm2VBvRoKBarXjULF37s8o=; b=jiI38F0jwyDPmL7YLT9YyG7b7j6DXPZpu1kWP4JZNc+RNNeJi4cHJ1VFZQKJw21Kqh 5t/nTPPX6k8pyX8XO6ZYN52DF3zEY17wTFm0WdfdZgvVxHbo67VlIkK5JPKS0o85LvKa hvacTMYrJ5dhebhiDeEksPjtX62aofk8PGKT5Yq+L67h3T1CaOn++aY7a6Ly3URnnH7r 4hBXBwOnV2TFFO8AXQh66KboTPH5SGihYKJCq2Ly9mUIWUg318CA8Pfi7VNGCmYHmdam 4uKGoha2SvVdptv4sk/YI6enCLARmt5/QvjyDkpzgEWvibaXJd6bgD5HHZEnxWw3rnEm AeWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcDo5HG0nFwNhIS6hVQd24FsjcoRdUXZC+VoGdsrE6pGAWhx1t/N NO4HnviUMix5UfNx X-Received: by 10.200.56.46 with SMTP id q43mr38175574qtb.83.1495652558094; Wed, 24 May 2017 12:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.20.202] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c142sm3190798qkb.10.2017.05.24.12.02.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 May 2017 12:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DB71BCB@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:02:34 -0400 Cc: "homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <97B8CBFD-BCA4-4039-AD4A-777307D652AA@fugue.com> References: <5255AA16-3DA8-418B-8533-B87F1CA78A72@townsley.net> <168E460A-29A7-4AA1-9232-6A777F8F93DE@fugue.com> <7i4lwb33gq.wl-jch@irif.fr> <246CDF99-F236-44FD-9C9D-7C7E4B63D12A@fugue.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DB71BCB@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> To: "STARK, BARBARA H" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] Security Design Team - July is coming! X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 19:02:40 -0000 If you add me as a maintainer, I can do updates. From nobody Sun May 28 14:18:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A832129413; Sun, 28 May 2017 14:18:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cAl9cVY7INdQ; Sun, 28 May 2017 14:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A138C1200CF; Sun, 28 May 2017 14:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v4SLIh5F024905 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 28 May 2017 23:18:44 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id v4SLIhNe006645; Sun, 28 May 2017 23:18:43 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CB6EB200; Sun, 28 May 2017 23:18:43 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id Z_1ZdCkQrqP1; Sun, 28 May 2017 23:18:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 90174EB204; Sun, 28 May 2017 23:18:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 23:18:42 +0200 Message-ID: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org CC: babel@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Sun, 28 May 2017 23:18:44 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Sun, 28 May 2017 23:18:43 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 592B3EB3.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 592B3EB3.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 592B3EB3.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 592B3EB3.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 592B3EB3.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 592B3EB3.001 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: [Homenet-babel-sec] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 21:18:49 -0000 Dear Ted, dear list, (Babel list in copy of this mail.) There are two facets to Homenet security: HNCP and Babel. We, at Babel towers, are planning to implement Stenberg-style security for Babel during the month of July (earlier is not possible due to my prospective interns having to sit their exams). When we're done, we can compare this aproach to the existing HMAC security, and see which of the two approaches is more suitable for Homenet. For the Babel work to be useful for Homenet security, HNCP needs to be extended with two features: - the ability to signal other HNCP nodes that a given link requires authentication and/or encryption, and to securely signal any private keys; - the ability to protect HNCP traffic over an untrusted link. Pierre has mentioned that HNCP already supports all or most of that, but somebody needs to write down the relevant protocol bits and check whether everything is implemented. I'd much prefer that this work be done before we start extending Babel, since having the HNCP bits ready would help us ensure that we're meeting all of the Homenet requirements. I'm leaving for a short holiday tomorrow, so please don't worry if I'm not very responsive during the next week. I've got exams the week after, so please don't worry if I'm not very responsive the week after that. Pleae expect me to be my usual annoyingly chatty and opinionated self in two weeks' time. Regards, -- Juliusz From nobody Sun May 28 15:28:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10283128AB0; Sun, 28 May 2017 15:28:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lp2wM49InZoF; Sun, 28 May 2017 15:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2A58126BFD; Sun, 28 May 2017 15:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v4SMSGQm003235 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 May 2017 00:28:16 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id v4SMSG78015355; Mon, 29 May 2017 00:28:16 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6478CEB204; Mon, 29 May 2017 00:28:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id H45yQa0Hz9Jt; Mon, 29 May 2017 00:28:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7795AEB201; Mon, 29 May 2017 00:28:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 00:28:13 +0200 Message-ID: <878tlgk45e.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Markus Stenberg Cc: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Mon, 29 May 2017 00:28:17 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Mon, 29 May 2017 00:28:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 592B4F00.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 592B4F00.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 592B4F00.002 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 592B4F00.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 592B4F00.002 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 592B4F00.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] [babel] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 22:28:20 -0000 > I am not holding my breath on my motivation to add support for the > shared keys in HNCP to hnetd, as I still believe in security-by-l2-zones > design that I am running in my home and not l3+ security for each protocol. As you know, you've convinced me. > (or very hefty bribe, Please share with your friends. -- Juliusz From nobody Sun May 28 16:13:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDCCF12949B for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 16:13:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4fS0zuu7b_iU for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 16:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22a.google.com (mail-qt0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CC5C126BF7 for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 16:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id f55so39637339qta.3 for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 16:13:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=OBIzOo4BMy993W8I0kRRuLRLvApQBaa70eU3OIHFhUc=; b=1VCvIpjTdvn9YrfSozdcFHBsNOG3+lH+3LXjy87DqeLruZUBU4aFKH42pQBTP7i7gQ +wgCcowz+S0Bty0yXwc/Vf0iD7iy7huATWmuGYr8hdI6zpi9pjclo7Pj4bXupKdYOdPa 5S0eekmDsHIaG2aqykuPDNSOBoplIA2qANa5/Hi8XGiYGd6xwBoni3zXtqWmtdKarQVU yEvI37MOzrgpdThafdRoFOLNnATp23zF9OFSLf3bzwE/YmZ4s/obqUPBN9saPEZozXQL cNtBXZK+rcSAQLLVNhBY0RVO+G5Bq7JLq0F2MdMeKeH9HbO95uqQm9M5sfq1offW/5d1 xgWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=OBIzOo4BMy993W8I0kRRuLRLvApQBaa70eU3OIHFhUc=; b=dWjZ+sdPovnxAF3Ppiwlv/dPxPl8rxbm5sN3DclgSU3ep4oAhfT8JhECK0/ZJYvK/g mWGBSiwCyVfkxYTWxBylbbTl0m7oS7QOC+ES6S1BjgekMDp6+B5/U3PouaD0s+eZvMvd iNyA2nDNMuZAq659GTDPjIJO+5VNdTdcOkZye4Tk4OHoNaile08iH6OZgjApV956cX2e mN9umUw1Qm3fYEp+tt1s8QzGmbfEEB/j5iM7tRtiGGuHrbvy7PG8Y6gihS4Zt8qVY7qa UmoBlajoYGTZmwin/JBqz6gR8qZLX0xESDHyhD97ULpCNNa24Dp1dAXNO4J69CrNYsVy 2IoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAE+YkgMdV1CEI0HZSjWaIqKv1WP1cVP5VtXGvRGp5fNUjDE6F4 jzUtXdn904/HnBAK X-Received: by 10.237.58.227 with SMTP id o90mr15005357qte.134.1496013184392; Sun, 28 May 2017 16:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.20.228] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n14sm5316367qtf.33.2017.05.28.16.13.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 May 2017 16:13:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_403570D2-0700-430A-AA3E-0BE3F77F6626" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 19:13:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> Cc: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org To: Juliusz Chroboczek References: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] [babel] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 23:13:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_403570D2-0700-430A-AA3E-0BE3F77F6626 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On May 28, 2017, at 5:18 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > I'm leaving for a short holiday tomorrow, so please don't worry if I'm = not > very responsive during the next week. I've got exams the week after, = so > please don't worry if I'm not very responsive the week after that. = Pleae > expect me to be my usual annoyingly chatty and opinionated self in two > weeks' time. Deadlines are good. I will do my best (and might bug Markus, if he's = willing). --Apple-Mail=_403570D2-0700-430A-AA3E-0BE3F77F6626 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On May 28, 2017, at 5:18 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> = wrote:
I'm leaving for a = short holiday tomorrow, so please don't worry if I'm not
very responsive during the next week.  I've = got exams the week after, so
please don't worry = if I'm not very responsive the week after that.  Pleae
expect me to be my usual annoyingly chatty and = opinionated self in two
weeks' = time.

Deadlines are good.   I will do my best (and might bug = Markus, if he's willing).

= --Apple-Mail=_403570D2-0700-430A-AA3E-0BE3F77F6626-- From nobody Sun May 28 16:15:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC10126BF7 for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 16:14:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1NcIZD0-o3zy for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 16:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22c.google.com (mail-qt0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32BE6126C3D for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 16:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id t26so39679576qtg.0 for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 16:14:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=vmdzlcbPTJHNK3oXNHLPbmNvlO8ZAITB/7eUbx6MrlU=; b=mPsrz3lvX7X22/CIHzN6y7qoKVvbijlh18iDXVjvGX/cj9BL+J7anyxceAM2K9mVqs b964FScx3o5KhIwWCfBAMlHLFQNBu0fqt9JUuYBlQhvU2oF45wqNQF59II+ZZaRUiVrb yiSVmdpih24FbhG44kfAZJtJ7YLMdFNjiiVhoX4rSRPIfSKUdXZlrvJEhS/mK6D51p3Q MDllSLwI3zXbbd562BIEuCRmb6VDo30ioLQwRRhs+pWfQMgAFDQia9Z1bPqYEBJ46FJ+ Y0cnVVy9hmtriuKG75spowNthGCHvgidHNShX8WyVCcf+e8mnXjRVWdEKMrO5S8gGxZq ZdYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=vmdzlcbPTJHNK3oXNHLPbmNvlO8ZAITB/7eUbx6MrlU=; b=Zpd73ISYOuSv487qqOfi2ZuJZOH35PhEUyoqKOFcoh99aS8YPEfaJGN993apT1C0ws pxAYqTEUJ3wr2rRKb51EWJE/O03Qp21BHh7wfD5u3I4fRINvZzpuvtAOmONuK6GrTxDw 2/dEFEjrbW9SQe/yW1xyrHaEg2ycycCKDpTl+iZ19Zf1FQfUk20bA+v7MUZ8PJRwdp+Q kbooU0ND5lx6B3VkHxJhMSqR2mGDC3rwY7zYnBvwLC8T7qY+lCmfyMzXGFC1GC1ujdn3 VOi1eS5VzIslz7LIvq1qGrQi1/yprEfABWTL9OVttsVE8Qmlu5YmGfzZQgSI63p6q2jz ec+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcDIMOiHEEAxhDwvw8Dr0MAQRe+QpgnrVWhEH/L8Ys5igns9Zu1q 8DM5V3nt87YvF8S+ X-Received: by 10.200.55.29 with SMTP id o29mr14652555qtb.120.1496013291349; Sun, 28 May 2017 16:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.20.228] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n3sm4319058qkd.21.2017.05.28.16.14.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 May 2017 16:14:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <1F8BA8E0-7518-4288-B679-749906B1B19F@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E69714F6-D9F1-41EF-AC34-9EEF938646DC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 19:14:48 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org To: Markus Stenberg References: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] [babel] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 23:14:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E69714F6-D9F1-41EF-AC34-9EEF938646DC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On May 28, 2017, at 5:53 PM, Markus Stenberg = wrote: > HNCP supports negotiating network-wide shared keys for arbitrary = services (such as RPs). If my hncp_proto.h has valid values, TLV to look = for is number 42, ironically enough. >=20 > hnetd the implementation does not implement this yet, as I am not = convinced it is a good idea. I welcome merge requests though if someone = wants to implement it. (it is one of the few missing parts of the spec = from hnetd) The idea is to have key pairs, not network wide keys (this is why = Juiliusz needs unicast hellos in Babel). Network wide keys are = useless. --Apple-Mail=_E69714F6-D9F1-41EF-AC34-9EEF938646DC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On May 28, 2017, at 5:53 PM, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi> wrote:
HNCP supports = negotiating network-wide shared keys for arbitrary services (such as = RPs). If my hncp_proto.h has valid values, TLV to look for is number 42, = ironically enough.

hnetd the implementation does not implement this = yet, as I am not convinced it is a good idea. I welcome merge requests = though if someone wants to implement it. (it is one of the few missing = parts of the spec from hnetd)

The idea is to have key pairs, not network = wide keys (this is why Juiliusz needs unicast hellos in Babel).   = Network wide keys are useless.

= --Apple-Mail=_E69714F6-D9F1-41EF-AC34-9EEF938646DC-- From nobody Sun May 28 18:19:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA55E1294CC; Sun, 28 May 2017 18:19:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F6kWjhfPrMKJ; Sun, 28 May 2017 18:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE6841294C9; Sun, 28 May 2017 18:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v4T1JOti017858 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 29 May 2017 03:19:24 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id v4T1JKWq028251; Mon, 29 May 2017 03:19:23 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00ACEEB201; Mon, 29 May 2017 03:19:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id VmagnQIRK0fI; Mon, 29 May 2017 03:19:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 89355EB204; Mon, 29 May 2017 03:19:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 03:19:12 +0200 Message-ID: <87shjoihnz.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon Cc: Markus Stenberg , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <1F8BA8E0-7518-4288-B679-749906B1B19F@fugue.com> References: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1F8BA8E0-7518-4288-B679-749906B1B19F@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Mon, 29 May 2017 03:19:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Mon, 29 May 2017 03:19:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 592B771C.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 592B7718.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 592B771C.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 592B7718.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 592B771C.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 592B7718.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] [babel] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 01:19:29 -0000 > The idea is to have key pairs, not network wide keys If it can be done without too much complexity, sure. > (this is why Juiliusz needs unicast hellos in Babel). I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that asymmetric signing can be done just as well over multicast. The reasons people want unicast hellos are multiple: - leverage DTLS (Stenberg-style) or IKE (Schinazi-style); - run Babel over NBMA (Cullen-style); - avoid multicast noise (Taht-Hřiland-style). Even for Stenberg-Schinazi security, it's not obvious to me why we need unicast Hellos -- it's only Updates that really need to be protected, if an attacker manages to fake a Hello he'll only be able to disrupt the link-quality estimation algorithm (which is only a DoS vector). And Margaret is doing NBMA in RFC 6126 just fine, by sending unicast Hellos simultaneously to all neighbours and hence avoiding seqno desyncrhonisation. In short -- if we don't get unicast Hellos into 6126bis, I'll be happy enough. If we do, and they're done well, I'll be happier. > Network wide keys are useless. Depends on the size of the network, I guess. -- Juliusz From nobody Sun May 28 18:27:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68CAE1294D2 for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 18:27:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ycqfcl7SoZcY for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 18:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x230.google.com (mail-qt0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D131E1294DB for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 18:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x230.google.com with SMTP id c13so40676072qtc.1 for ; Sun, 28 May 2017 18:27:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=M3Tko8p1VpsQgx/+0FEAj9Npjrey4uFYPc4W4zbp190=; b=yJyI27pXM3dKtbfcexju69G4GuICSNdrgHMHVs/uZ4K46Zi60y1bdC8gkLIa5/nthS DHlWHsygQ3zAl8SC5cyVXnhNr2V/1JwF9kgnefF0M9OyQqQxwNQcwQOPfycdhZiNCY8/ Vf7zZjthiHOLdsG1GQc2l7l9L6sOokpMpWRBsH2YmyOcMPi1gZLomPo1KlkWrPSNdeBM EAWm67ehH5c/g+sMwsLWPVesFg175JQU3Oqs0JAhGMZvBkrUxGmdovs6mY60KTZDFrMj 9Br4ti2Q/hMQSHibbQXNIo8C8+HpA4dKSfBjcPSZWkapf8pDMi3sRG7i1zNM7TN7Nn7L 8joQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=M3Tko8p1VpsQgx/+0FEAj9Npjrey4uFYPc4W4zbp190=; b=Hb5ZPY/CtRhcSQkFNSy3kc4CFbl1FNaXfmRPUlY/nVzkFKBpoKNTziuX6qtqRksZVa 0FTAgVcMCG2Xu3glb4ErKNdq5Nq0UYG2iabh1GKVGMY4g7TG+o4SYhMUchr5xtk8dAl2 4Koan3DF81piTL+n6A0ItnnOWfeONveqseW/Bhfk5oayKHB18OBhafI8kmolLeTSyG6O ax8yFqN3w1GJeLrSO63qH0x2DI5ftijHVkj6CFnUSZEUyDj7CdoZOoPUOH/BZWYrKU1B 98dNCT3w1cdUi/BWnHSz9knMtkcqMTR5NubR8t0CHqEvMQlQXVk7jS/2OlCxabJdgbyJ bGNw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcDYBWJjjjmZOSl+BMzBJbO7YJWLwy+XJSgstjRlo4y8LRk6K5DX Zg+eEGWJKucLRgFB X-Received: by 10.200.55.145 with SMTP id d17mr16921711qtc.57.1496021232963; Sun, 28 May 2017 18:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.228] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n35sm5436997qtc.55.2017.05.28.18.27.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 May 2017 18:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <87shjoihnz.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 21:27:09 -0400 Cc: Markus Stenberg , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <416AD4BB-7A24-41D4-9C91-96B23BE65EF3@fugue.com> References: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1F8BA8E0-7518-4288-B679-749906B1B19F@fugue.com> <87shjoihnz.wl-jch@irif.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] [babel] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 01:27:15 -0000 > I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that asymmetric signing = can > be done just as well over multicast. The reasons people want unicast > hellos are multiple: We concluded that asymmetric signing was too expensive, IIRC. > Even for Stenberg-Schinazi security, it's not obvious to me why we = need > unicast Hellos -- it's only Updates that really need to be protected, = if > an attacker manages to fake a Hello he'll only be able to disrupt the > link-quality estimation algorithm (which is only a DoS vector). I will rely on your expertise here. However, if the point is to = identify the attacker, then being able to identify the attacker in a DoS = attack is just as important. >> Network wide keys are useless. >=20 > Depends on the size of the network, I guess. Yes. For networks with only two hosts, network-wide keys are = adequate... ;) From nobody Mon May 29 02:15:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7D01200C1; Mon, 29 May 2017 02:15:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GhOkXYIf1fkJ; Mon, 29 May 2017 02:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D6F0126557; Mon, 29 May 2017 02:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v4T9F2RF002215; Mon, 29 May 2017 11:15:02 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BEEAEB2C1; Mon, 29 May 2017 11:15:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id ckJfL7l8F8_Q; Mon, 29 May 2017 11:15:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22BB6EB2CD; Mon, 29 May 2017 11:15:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 11:15:00 +0200 Message-ID: <877f10owh7.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Markus Stenberg Cc: Ted Lemon , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1F8BA8E0-7518-4288-B679-749906B1B19F@fugue.com> <87shjoihnz.wl-jch@irif.fr> <416AD4BB-7A24-41D4-9C91-96B23BE65EF3@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Mon, 29 May 2017 11:15:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 592BE696.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 592BE696.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 592BE696.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] [babel] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 09:15:07 -0000 >>>> Network wide keys are useless. >>> Depends on the size of the network, I guess. >> Yes. For networks with only two hosts, network-wide keys are adequate... > My _home_ network has plenty of network-wide shared keys (e.g. SSID > PSKs) and I do not consider them useless; while they are low barrier to > entry, I am not aware of any good alternatives that most of my devices > would support Yes, I too am somewhat puzzled by Ted's very strong stance about avoding shared keys, and cannot but wonder if it reflects WG consensus. However, it is my (perhaps mistaken) understanding that Stenberg-Schinazi security gives us asymmetric keying basically for free, as far as additions to the Babel protocol are concerned, so I suggest waiting for Ted's prototype before deciding whether the added complexity is acceptable. > (and SSID per device is not realistic). Now don't you tempt me. (Increase the beaconing interval, hack the wifi firmware to store more keys, use a master SSID with a cool protocol to securely negotiate keys with individual devices... and watch bitterly as nobody adopts your protocol.) -- Juliusz From nobody Mon May 29 03:24:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05CC124BFA; Mon, 29 May 2017 03:24:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=toke.dk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dAAKUEGxUuiS; Mon, 29 May 2017 03:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.toke.dk (mail.toke.dk [52.28.52.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B26451242F7; Mon, 29 May 2017 03:24:16 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?Q?Toke_H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=toke.dk; s=20161023; t=1496053448; bh=B7IoP9aPHxhOJGL9o7lt2azTSXwZoKOz/XahQH6jODI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=AaJqJeUAiYGJRm15Gh01K0bZe4nmEOlfzjI0Yevsp5mcr1ToEwVJ8N7ERLhbiXd+5 FT9KzTaVyUC5wMVt2wTCCjvKsWVduXSlb7qE3Z7+c6wa7RmviILgbE4i+N4ubt7INz +0KMGFmiWSo97gOsnhI7XsXfqebHqD/ToZ5SuOrDYS8jVTV1i/LAA7RlGyAdeP0d05 OVfqXVwANRYJ28f2ivQYeY4OAMdjVUmswW16AUoOVukB60xK5AqAMbaeNejAUbfKsL u6i8c6QPiCAmUGn7PivjJknuaDN+36Xxrp43t8ZmFORClmq6WVoRR4ST6iDK0w40Ay wqm6Ai1xGJFiw== To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: Markus Stenberg , Ted Lemon , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org References: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1F8BA8E0-7518-4288-B679-749906B1B19F@fugue.com> <87shjoihnz.wl-jch@irif.fr> <416AD4BB-7A24-41D4-9C91-96B23BE65EF3@fugue.com> <877f10owh7.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 12:24:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <877f10owh7.wl-jch@irif.fr> (Juliusz Chroboczek's message of "Mon, 29 May 2017 11:15:00 +0200") X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID: <87wp909d15.fsf@alrua-kau> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] [babel] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 10:24:19 -0000 Juliusz Chroboczek writes: > use a master SSID with a cool protocol to securely negotiate keys with > individual devices... Aren't you basically describing "enterprise" (802.1X) WPA here? > and watch bitterly as nobody adopts your protocol. Apart from enterprises, universities and anyone who bothers to install freeradius, you mean? ;) -Toke From nobody Mon May 29 06:22:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D085C128854 for ; Mon, 29 May 2017 06:22:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9h5c1yc0pacf for ; Mon, 29 May 2017 06:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22e.google.com (mail-qk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F7A612957B for ; Mon, 29 May 2017 06:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id a72so47827363qkj.2 for ; Mon, 29 May 2017 06:22:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=PXipNigPfuCUjcKt13iGIHrN78IRfBI5AeB2b9WwqJ0=; b=sRNxfOOR8gqKHg6o1f08L2P4qlAQLFEJQrfhtiuvdVAYkae12lS6ZvoFawh2LZFqua ChHEGUmbRxCvVXsoHapj7wjgVTlARAQbus0EKGjaId4YutQtXGm1djw6H4x2hlwdtHvJ IOy2/lHPoNT5nOXoyUW5m1tkpfias5OuNFIzHv33b+n6T6QNZG843stbSTgJ2voD+c7/ w/h9md3Li0nmZ7/fkptPTpSUXXUvnflaDjBy6iE0lI9VZW0x6/dbbhQihoGW/eyuMRSe X7RMl9TJ8vu3P6oe49FVl/cjiPF9/Q1IDFngANd1d8gA43oPhcbJTOGsEpj2xsNryAnW 8Q5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=PXipNigPfuCUjcKt13iGIHrN78IRfBI5AeB2b9WwqJ0=; b=p29Y/4G0nK3MmwFIh8PFqrvvyEDoG2iZ86Bp1quZHryBtiyCQCtulmmOM1uLBMvWSW GSv9vCYt2SEGhCPVbRVu6GucvNXb3EGQlmm2k5UZmC2J7tLKadTNp9kiTle4p/ST0ib1 sqgnIZn8UZ/PI+AC8afoIrFVn6ftfUJcloSqk3PIY6KVoh2qI7sz4V1fuS99W7LwkXKh 5GfAxCh0PpY067RMcIRxACt80oweD6uGRN2NQT3HjnKHITwnRGNTxIvbuUMNQzsxZpT7 WqCypmADs54bMPoHoYxoe/9P/bPXqCqBQUcODg1dW0jXLsywejK7QznqmKVgIOytyc2i YJRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcA7srpEZtklNh3azG8yqWrCU8uHchVhlYs5OwBwZO2MAxFMxyF9 lcAg8zG7WY0aYAh7fqzQYg== X-Received: by 10.55.161.209 with SMTP id k200mr2510831qke.28.1496064150570; Mon, 29 May 2017 06:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.228] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a126sm6291752qkc.15.2017.05.29.06.22.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 May 2017 06:22:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6526D244-397F-4D7F-9643-F38CFCC106FA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 09:22:24 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org To: Markus Stenberg References: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1F8BA8E0-7518-4288-B679-749906B1B19F@fugue.com> <87shjoihnz.wl-jch@irif.fr> <416AD4BB-7A24-41D4-9C91-96B23BE65EF3@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] [babel] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 13:22:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6526D244-397F-4D7F-9643-F38CFCC106FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On May 29, 2017, at 3:14 AM, Markus Stenberg = wrote: > My _home_ network has plenty of network-wide shared keys (e.g. SSID = PSKs) and I do not consider them useless; while they are low barrier to = entry, I am not aware of any good alternatives that most of my devices = would support (and SSID per device is not realistic). Shared pre-shared-keys are useful if the need for trust is minimal. We = use them all the time at IETF, and my home network uses WPA2/PSK, not = WPA2/enterprise. But the point is that there is no expectation of = privacy or authenticity in this case. In the case we are talking about, a shared key doesn't work because if = any device on the network is pwned, it can masquerade as any other = device to escape detection. You or I could do a fault isolation = process to figure out which device has been pwned, but we can't expect = homenet users to be able to do that. --Apple-Mail=_6526D244-397F-4D7F-9643-F38CFCC106FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On May 29, 2017, at 3:14 AM, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi> wrote:
My _home_ network has plenty of = network-wide shared keys (e.g. SSID PSKs) and I do not consider them = useless; while they are low barrier to entry, I am not aware of any good = alternatives that most of my devices would support (and SSID per device = is not realistic).

Shared pre-shared-keys are useful if the need for trust is = minimal.   We use them all the time at IETF, and my home network = uses WPA2/PSK, not WPA2/enterprise.   But the point is that there = is no expectation of privacy or authenticity in this case.

In the case we are = talking about, a shared key doesn't work because if any device on the = network is pwned, it can masquerade as any other device to escape = detection.   You or I could do a fault isolation process to figure = out which device has been pwned, but we can't expect homenet users to be = able to do that.

= --Apple-Mail=_6526D244-397F-4D7F-9643-F38CFCC106FA-- From nobody Mon May 29 07:02:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A5F1293E3; Mon, 29 May 2017 07:02:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v8oHNIjRsBoz; Mon, 29 May 2017 07:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE2C91201FA; Mon, 29 May 2017 07:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v4TE2fYE027743; Mon, 29 May 2017 16:02:41 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD47EB2C1; Mon, 29 May 2017 16:02:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id sSfsY30bf57y; Mon, 29 May 2017 16:02:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C7BDBEB2CD; Mon, 29 May 2017 16:02:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 16:02:37 +0200 Message-ID: <87inkjoj5u.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon Cc: Markus Stenberg , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1F8BA8E0-7518-4288-B679-749906B1B19F@fugue.com> <87shjoihnz.wl-jch@irif.fr> <416AD4BB-7A24-41D4-9C91-96B23BE65EF3@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Mon, 29 May 2017 16:02:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 592C2A01.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 592C2A01.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 592C2A01.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] [babel] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 14:02:45 -0000 > In the case we are talking about, a shared key doesn't work because if any > device on the network is pwned, it can masquerade as any other device to > escape detection. You or I could do a fault isolation process to figure out > which device has been pwned, but we can't expect homenet users to be able to > do that. I think we're all well aware of the advantages of per-device keys. I think we're also well aware that there are tradeoffs between functionality and complexity, and that sometimes it is worth giving up on features in order to keep complexity at a manageable level. (Radius, sheesh.) I think we'd need a prototype in order to make an informed judgement. -- Juliusz From nobody Mon May 29 08:02:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A195129493; Sun, 28 May 2017 14:54:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kapsi.fi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n5T0rU9LSO6U; Sun, 28 May 2017 14:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.kapsi.fi (mail.kapsi.fi [IPv6:2001:1bc8:1004::1:25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20C3A12941C; Sun, 28 May 2017 14:54:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kapsi.fi; s=20161220; h=To:References:Message-Id:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type; bh=JZu79AjDKRt5ivCiLe50xDssK8aYKqOqqm7d7yKkiqc=; b=kGhEkipZIaupZCaU7F3hJrepbngQLhNGsxD5ie0ajyr15wUrzyOT8kbhpEF2QgLvioQbJyrMAEJRMTm44Cbukov4Ib7YbdcgzLzZvCkgAQiSFKxsVEf8zGxxySgaigh4HhVuNP/v8Dsbr74e0zbC+WziuTBng4t48GUA81UJ8oHMlMU452Ti89L8ART4M+kwHuK+ZyKvn0amK0lqra1CZDR2QCo2m1KEA5UA7MmUqYb50KIkA5eO6UHggKoIvQ0VD/tJW4KEce8Vji22beC3x/U63Z9MeqkLSDkk7F2X3SK0Hunz8jx3xEye1KkDiJJpAmmGbK3Rv6qItXQH70DO/w==; Received: from a91-155-69-187.elisa-laajakaista.fi ([91.155.69.187] helo=poro.lan) by mail.kapsi.fi with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dF68K-0007Q0-PD; Mon, 29 May 2017 00:53:56 +0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 00:53:56 +0300 Cc: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 91.155.69.187 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: markus.stenberg@iki.fi X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.kapsi.fi); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 29 May 2017 08:02:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] [babel] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 21:54:03 -0000 On 29 May 2017, at 0.18, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > There are two facets to Homenet security: HNCP and Babel. We, at = Babel > towers, are planning to implement Stenberg-style security for Babel = during > the month of July (earlier is not possible due to my prospective = interns > having to sit their exams). When we're done, we can compare this = aproach > to the existing HMAC security, and see which of the two approaches is = more > suitable for Homenet. >=20 > For the Babel work to be useful for Homenet security, HNCP needs to be > extended with two features: >=20 > - the ability to signal other HNCP nodes that a given link requires > authentication and/or encryption, and to securely signal any = private > keys; HNCP supports negotiating network-wide shared keys for arbitrary = services (such as RPs). If my hncp_proto.h has valid values, TLV to look = for is number 42, ironically enough. hnetd the implementation does not implement this yet, as I am not = convinced it is a good idea. I welcome merge requests though if someone = wants to implement it. (it is one of the few missing parts of the spec = from hnetd) > - the ability to protect HNCP traffic over an untrusted link. hnetd supports this and it has even been tested at some point in distant = past. No idea of current status of the code, as I nowadays use the = Python HNCP implementation and not the C one.=20 > Pierre has mentioned that HNCP already supports all or most of that, = but > somebody needs to write down the relevant protocol bits and check = whether > everything is implemented. >=20 > I'd much prefer that this work be done before we start extending = Babel, > since having the HNCP bits ready would help us ensure that we're = meeting > all of the Homenet requirements. I am not holding my breath on my motivation to add support for the = shared keys in HNCP to hnetd, as I still believe in security-by-l2-zones = design that I am running in my home and not l3+ security for each = protocol. However, I welcome merge requests on github :) (or very hefty = bribe, smirk, but I am working on some other tinfoil hat stuff at the = moment.) Cheers, -Markus From nobody Mon May 29 08:02:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet-babel-sec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEC2412704B; Mon, 29 May 2017 01:18:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kapsi.fi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AjstkCx0xF6I; Mon, 29 May 2017 01:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.kapsi.fi (mail.kapsi.fi [IPv6:2001:1bc8:1004::1:25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA2D9120454; Mon, 29 May 2017 01:18:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kapsi.fi; s=20161220; h=To:References:Message-Id:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type; bh=F5KtVRYdBV37G1Enj58E8+Ee98994Na0nyJaPuUHBeM=; b=E9ZtDEAxUcTZKKVMsybRJLRh3kB/L3oWUZQIrEVE7CevD4EfrLTWrHYcAzWCcYkQbgGWd0SK1HjKn9DN6iV1Ue29NhxszQUvgrS1uwo5kTSJm3Rhn1VDIz2SzaruDRoskKZFLr0/ruSQ5mgl76SRSxhiy8EVHefFUcjLMe0lWFpKQEJXPP0GJadclm6pnOWs46SKLZZHRCS1+Y21QTZVBadtfml1BCQ68AvPN6K/J08Tqy6OHtEHq+cs2xdIUIvfExE12qoNWhpgqj0L2s5af1ShqoijB9tvCSUjKJI9eJQ1jhuqcvw4YBxoewHSPh7+7EhF6//HbqwPSVEi7xNwOQ==; Received: from hel-gw.ssh.com ([195.20.116.1] helo=[192.168.200.50]) by mail.kapsi.fi with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dFEsy-00071Y-HG; Mon, 29 May 2017 10:14:40 +0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <416AD4BB-7A24-41D4-9C91-96B23BE65EF3@fugue.com> Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 10:14:42 +0300 Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek , homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org, babel@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87d1ask7d9.wl-jch@irif.fr> <1F8BA8E0-7518-4288-B679-749906B1B19F@fugue.com> <87shjoihnz.wl-jch@irif.fr> <416AD4BB-7A24-41D4-9C91-96B23BE65EF3@fugue.com> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 195.20.116.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: markus.stenberg@iki.fi X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.kapsi.fi); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 29 May 2017 08:02:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [Homenet-babel-sec] [babel] What's up with HNCP security? X-BeenThere: homenet-babel-sec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Homenet Babel Security List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 08:18:11 -0000 >>> Network wide keys are useless. >>=20 >> Depends on the size of the network, I guess. >=20 > Yes. For networks with only two hosts, network-wide keys are = adequate... My _home_ network has plenty of network-wide shared keys (e.g. SSID = PSKs) and I do not consider them useless; while they are low barrier to = entry, I am not aware of any good alternatives that most of my devices = would support (and SSID per device is not realistic). Cheers, -Markus=