From jhaas@slice.pfrc.org Tue Apr 3 09:44:04 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A9221F8551 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:44:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.058 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.058 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.207, BAYES_40=-0.185, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b8Sp8Tnwv52b for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB8B21F8533 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1A9CD170414; Tue, 3 Apr 2012 12:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 12:44:04 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Michael Richardson Message-ID: <20120403164404.GA9634@slice> References: <20120329143154.GF18393@slice> <4264.1333042877@marajade.sandelman.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4264.1333042877@marajade.sandelman.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: Jeffrey Haas , homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Host service provider considerations in a multihomed network X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 16:44:04 -0000 On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 07:41:17PM +0200, Michael Richardson wrote: > Jeffrey> Let's say my Mother has two internet providers, A and B. > Jeffrey> The reason may be because she needs provider A for home > Jeffrey> work, but it's a somewhat filtered network (she can't get > Jeffrey> to her facebook!) and has B as her personal provider. > > A good example, particularly if "A" is really a virtual wire. The scenario I have in mind is more of something that appears as a device on the network. On-host VPN clients that don't serve anything off-host seem somewhat out of scope? > But, my question is: on provider A, will she have full access, or only > access to work? It's possible that it may be full access. To me, this really is a matter of "does the work device advertise default?" Some of this is potentially business policy as well. For example, the work link may be fine with the link being used for general Internet access for work purposes and perhaps even goes through a nice firewall to scrub things. However, they may prefer that any personal stuff happens on the home network. A simple example is "no social networking across company resources". > Jeffrey> Instead of source routing, I can also see standard routing > Jeffrey> being done. Presume 192.0.2/24 is where the work-related > Jeffrey> resources are. A static route configured on the gateway > Jeffrey> for A and advertised into the routing protocol would be > Jeffrey> sufficient to sink work traffic to the right router. > > so, this is what we have been calling a walled-garden, but perhaps that > term is too confusing due to WAP-type usage a decade ago, and we need > another term. FWIW, just keep it simple. It's routing. Routing protocols, for home users, may be hard. However, a UI that says "the route to some resource goes through me" is still intelligible for home users as long as the UI is simple enough. -- Jeff From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Apr 3 06:12:43 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD91C21F8643 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2012 06:12:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.646 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VNoQSWGFOqYe for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2012 06:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [67.23.6.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E7B21F860E for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2012 06:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [38.102.80.246]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12E5D344DA for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 050CE98AAF; Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:12:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marajade.sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF17298AAE for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:12:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: homenet In-Reply-To: References: <2655.1333229399@marajade.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 09:12:40 -0400 Message-ID: <14607.1333458760@marajade.sandelman.ca> Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 12:01:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [homenet] case for reverse DNS on homenet X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 13:12:43 -0000 >>>>> "Joe" == Joe Touch writes: >> There was some minor discussion in the WG about whether reverse >> DNS was needed at all for home networks. Joe> Why? Do we all like stalls on reverse lookups ( telnet, some Joe> logging, x509 validation, acls)? I have no idea why you like to have stalls. My network doesn't have any such things, and there is no reason you have to stall things to do a lookup. -- ] He who is tired of Weird Al is tired of life! | firewalls [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON |net architect[ ] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[ Kyoto Plus: watch the video then sign the petition. From touch@isi.edu Thu Apr 5 15:29:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7315221F86F1 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 15:29:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.136, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ujyHQQGRP37H for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 15:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060ED21F85DF for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 15:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.166] (abc.isi.edu [128.9.160.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q35MSUtg013928 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 5 Apr 2012 15:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4F7E1C8E.90908@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 15:28:30 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <2655.1333229399@marajade.sandelman.ca> <14607.1333458760@marajade.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <14607.1333458760@marajade.sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: homenet Subject: Re: [homenet] case for reverse DNS on homenet X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 22:29:06 -0000 On 4/3/2012 6:12 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > >>>>>> "Joe" == Joe Touch writes: > >> There was some minor discussion in the WG about whether reverse > >> DNS was needed at all for home networks. > > Joe> Why? Do we all like stalls on reverse lookups ( telnet, some > Joe> logging, x509 validation, acls)? > > I have no idea why you like to have stalls. > My network doesn't have any such things, and there is no reason you have > to stall things to do a lookup. The above things stall waiting for a lookup to complete and timeout when they lack a reverse DNS entry. Joe From marka@isc.org Thu Apr 5 16:37:47 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9B321F86D5 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 16:37:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t+fExV8AjXRR for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 16:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371B121F8636 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 16:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7891EC9424; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 23:37:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:ecd1:79e0:2282:ce43]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 20096216C31; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 23:37:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918B41F65596; Fri, 6 Apr 2012 09:37:29 +1000 (EST) To: Joe Touch From: Mark Andrews References: <2655.1333229399@marajade.sandelman.ca> <14607.1333458760@marajade.sandelman.ca> <4F7E1C8E.90908@isi.edu> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Apr 2012 15:28:30 MST." <4F7E1C8E.90908@isi.edu> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 09:37:28 +1000 Message-Id: <20120405233729.918B41F65596@drugs.dv.isc.org> Cc: homenet , Michael Richardson Subject: Re: [homenet] case for reverse DNS on homenet X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 23:37:48 -0000 In message <4F7E1C8E.90908@isi.edu>, Joe Touch writes: > > > On 4/3/2012 6:12 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > > >>>>>> "Joe" == Joe Touch writes: > > >> There was some minor discussion in the WG about whether reverse > > >> DNS was needed at all for home networks. > > > > Joe> Why? Do we all like stalls on reverse lookups ( telnet, some > > Joe> logging, x509 validation, acls)? > > > > I have no idea why you like to have stalls. > > My network doesn't have any such things, and there is no reason you have > > to stall things to do a lookup. > > The above things stall waiting for a lookup to complete and timeout when > they lack a reverse DNS entry. Lack of a reverse entry DOES NOT CAUSE A STALL. Broken delegations cause stalls. Unreachable nameservers cause stalls. Not having a PTR record does not cause a stall as you get back NXDOMAIN. If a reverse lookup is slow complain to the administrators of the reverse zone and if that fails complain to the RIR to get the delegation removed. A broken delegation is *much* worse than no delegation. > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From touch@isi.edu Thu Apr 5 17:29:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9572621F8623 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:29:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.076, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LdkSM6wvrYG4 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3E521F8617 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.252] (pen.isi.edu [128.9.160.252]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q360TFcq001170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4F7E38DB.6020203@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 17:29:15 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews References: <2655.1333229399@marajade.sandelman.ca> <14607.1333458760@marajade.sandelman.ca> <4F7E1C8E.90908@isi.edu> <20120405233729.918B41F65596@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <20120405233729.918B41F65596@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: homenet , Michael Richardson Subject: Re: [homenet] case for reverse DNS on homenet X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 00:29:37 -0000 On 4/5/2012 4:37 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > In message<4F7E1C8E.90908@isi.edu>, Joe Touch writes: >> >> >> On 4/3/2012 6:12 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> "Joe" == Joe Touch writes: >>> >> There was some minor discussion in the WG about whether reverse >>> >> DNS was needed at all for home networks. >>> >>> Joe> Why? Do we all like stalls on reverse lookups ( telnet, some >>> Joe> logging, x509 validation, acls)? >>> >>> I have no idea why you like to have stalls. >>> My network doesn't have any such things, and there is no reason you have >>> to stall things to do a lookup. >> >> The above things stall waiting for a lookup to complete and timeout when >> they lack a reverse DNS entry. > > Lack of a reverse entry DOES NOT CAUSE A STALL. Broken delegations > cause stalls. Unreachable nameservers cause stalls. Not having > a PTR record does not cause a stall as you get back NXDOMAIN. Fair enough... > If a reverse lookup is slow complain to the administrators of the > reverse zone and if that fails complain to the RIR to get the > delegation removed. Certainly - I'll let all home users know that this is the appropriate solution. I'm sure the average customer knows what to do next... ;-( Whether this is fixed by ensuring proper delegation or by a proxy that gives the right answer quickly, IMO a reverse DNS local to the homenet is useful. Joe From mellon@fugue.com Thu Apr 5 17:46:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A471521F8570 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:46:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fo1oS7HsBxoh for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D390321F8562 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 17:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1486:a496:8b0e:2eb8:2435] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1486:a496:8b0e:2eb8:2435]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3D4FB238224D; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 20:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4A5FE175-7ED2-4449-92AA-7F84E815B5AD" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.0 \(1426\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <4F7E38DB.6020203@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 20:46:30 -0400 Message-Id: References: <2655.1333229399@marajade.sandelman.ca> <14607.1333458760@marajade.sandelman.ca> <4F7E1C8E.90908@isi.edu> <20120405233729.918B41F65596@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4F7E38DB.6020203@isi.edu> To: Joe Touch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1426) Cc: homenet , Michael Richardson , Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [homenet] case for reverse DNS on homenet X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 00:46:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4A5FE175-7ED2-4449-92AA-7F84E815B5AD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Apr 5, 2012, at 8:29 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > Whether this is fixed by ensuring proper delegation or by a proxy that = gives the right answer quickly, IMO a reverse DNS local to the homenet = is useful. Reminder: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lemon-dhc-dns-pd-00 addresses = this precise issue in a way that does not require every homenet to = manage its own reverse delegation, but allows homenets to be configured = in such a way that they can negotiate such a delegation if their = operators prefer. --Apple-Mail=_4A5FE175-7ED2-4449-92AA-7F84E815B5AD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii touch@isi.edu> = wrote:
Whether = this is fixed by ensuring proper delegation or by a proxy that gives the = right answer quickly, IMO a reverse DNS local to the homenet is = useful.
http://tools= .ietf.org/html/draft-lemon-dhc-dns-pd-00 addresses this precise = issue in a way that does not require every homenet to manage its own = reverse delegation, but allows homenets to be configured in such a way = that they can negotiate such a delegation if their operators = prefer.

= --Apple-Mail=_4A5FE175-7ED2-4449-92AA-7F84E815B5AD-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Thu Apr 5 18:58:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860E211E8080 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 18:58:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.207, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w-6hDsznjBWh for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 18:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [67.23.6.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8853E21F8603 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 18:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (wlan203.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.203]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCBAE34502 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 21:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id CD6B298AAF; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 21:58:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marajade.sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D6E98AA9 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2012 21:58:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: homenet In-Reply-To: References: <2655.1333229399@marajade.sandelman.ca> <14607.1333458760@marajade.sandelman.ca> <4F7E1C8E.90908@isi.edu> <20120405233729.918B41F65596@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4F7E38DB.6020203@isi.edu> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 21:58:02 -0400 Message-ID: <17320.1333677482@marajade.sandelman.ca> Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] case for reverse DNS on homenet X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 01:58:06 -0000 >>>>> "Ted" == Ted Lemon writes: >> Whether this is fixed by ensuring proper delegation or by a proxy >> that gives the right answer quickly, IMO a reverse DNS local to >> the homenet is useful. Ted> Reminder: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lemon-dhc-dns-pd-00 Ted> addresses this precise issue in a way that does not require Ted> every homenet to manage its own reverse delegation, but allows Ted> homenets to be configured in such a way that they can negotiate Ted, I read your document this morning (it was on my list...) and I love your document. Great! Does it get adopted by DHC or HOMENET WG? I think I didn't get to the end of it this morning on the bus, but if homenet uses PD to delegate prefixes within the home, do you see any reason why subnets for the different parts of the home(net) couldn't have reverse DNS delegated too? (I think there are reasons why some networks probably *shouldn't* do this, probably not by default either, but I can see a number of situations where it would be useful. One use case might be Fred's house network, with the two SOHOs...) -- ] He who is tired of Weird Al is tired of life! | firewalls [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON |net architect[ ] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[ Kyoto Plus: watch the video then sign the petition. From kerlyn2001@gmail.com Sat Apr 7 09:27:58 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8EA21F855F for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2012 09:27:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DFfJqEsz+lBM for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2012 09:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F7221F855D for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2012 09:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lagj5 with SMTP id j5so1513774lag.31 for ; Sat, 07 Apr 2012 09:27:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=5sfbPM+/lzi94YAfhgGmg3aLs747TOzi3AmNvwe3Cb4=; b=aqw+NdcNLMd3v3kFuNl2LeTl8z/B7Dger/DtIlAFp2BiOzBgOOrOznKFX2sgDp8e5J +5jIb7eDqCzLa0KxyAa276M7pPJYITM0xnMXofke1V76A3KfGQcGBLm180pvtAZpiyIJ TzjzbriEM5sh9Wl5Qy8pzQMpUq3PaZGR981vLp4h9aOBgJHkPMh59lv4I43fzHA+XExq LoS9VI5IYLBhSvVJS/hyjk27jmN3QJps3/E5MMrcFq+/LcP2wFnQkOEHJP7HOXd9bONM f6q6xXTwvUGWxWsTv+Nhw7Kq1PtymXLAZaWWoWPuqbOiWzzx/KDJnIWYZDQCYgwasEq7 bebw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.147.100 with SMTP id tj4mr2798801lab.39.1333816076434; Sat, 07 Apr 2012 09:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Sender: kerlyn2001@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.92.6 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Apr 2012 09:27:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <56D070B2-8F60-4222-90FA-ADA8DAA6C003@cisco.com> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 12:27:56 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: a0klnUyutT2OUbLqGVLXDGLMkyk Message-ID: From: Kerry Lynn To: Ralph Droms Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f22bd896e7bbf04bd1941fb Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Name resolution in the homenet architecture document X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2012 16:27:58 -0000 --e89a8f22bd896e7bbf04bd1941fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Ralph Droms wrote: > Fred... > > On Mar 11, 2012, at 11:22 AM 3/11/12, Fred Baker wrote: > > > Two things someone will need to think about: > > > > ICANN is now selling "dotless" names. A name without dots has a defined > behavior in most DNS resolvers; they find a way to further qualify them. Do > we want to humor ICANN, or solve this? > > Do you have a pointer to a description of the behavior of "dotless" names? > > www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-053-en.pdf -K- > > mDNS is crippled, in that it operates on a single LAN. That might > describe Apple networks; per the architecture document it doesn't describe > all home networks. Do we want to provide an admin-scope multicast address > for it, and if so, what do we recommend for routing? > > See draft-lynn-homenet-site-mdns-00. > > - Ralph --e89a8f22bd896e7bbf04bd1941fb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Fred...

On Mar 11, 2012, at 11:22 AM 3/11/12, Fred Baker wrote:

> Two things someone will need to think about:
>
> ICANN is now selling "dotless" names. A name without dots ha= s a defined behavior in most DNS resolvers; they find a way to further qual= ify them. Do we want to humor ICANN, or solve this?

Do you have a pointer to a description of the behavior of "dotle= ss" names?

-K-
=A0
> mDNS is crippled, in that it operates on a single LAN. That might desc= ribe Apple networks; per the architecture document it doesn't describe = all home networks. Do we want to provide an admin-scope multicast address f= or it, and if so, what do we recommend for routing?

See draft-lynn-homenet-site-mdns-00.

- Ralph
--e89a8f22bd896e7bbf04bd1941fb-- From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Tue Apr 17 05:39:16 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8053B21F865D for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 05:39:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GPmtbR-yU43l for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 05:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nominet.org.uk (mail.nominet.org.uk [213.248.199.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B1C21F865C for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 05:39:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:Received:From:To:Subject: Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:Date:Message-ID:Accept-Language: Content-Language:X-MS-Has-Attach:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=u3l3xx/2ZNm1EhsqT6lLZTQ1L3V4tjBRJYmjuuAGdOtwCXtaqcAoW3ix /S+0LaI4LYudsc9WG5UdC/yQ6GxUfnR1zyy56WoDeXSlsjDhEKzkzYV37 lLL/eJTbFUH6ZB+; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1334666352; x=1366202352; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray=20Bellis=20 |Subject:=20WG=20session=20draft=20minutes|Date:=20Tue, =2017=20Apr=202012=2012:39:06=20+0000|Message-ID:=20<8591 152F-A691-46AA-9064-E4099C34A25D@nominet.org.uk>|To:=20"h omenet@ietf.org=20Group"=20 |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=n902khfGzflTm5puRg/P56tyk8QSmtorRjPeERhNGoY=; b=S9ctV2I/H9yL4m1deAxPpsGAikt1JhMZIyEajGbnuOU376VTbQmQmnhO OkH6A8zaqVBpgUhDBQ4xZifq9jPmhjLFfiWRv63RR9182D3hx0opSlySj uDp+fIpTkzFEWw1; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,435,1330905600"; d="scan'208,217";a="32642835" Received: from wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.144]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 17 Apr 2012 13:39:07 +0100 Received: from WDS-EXC2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::7577:eaca:5241:25d4]) by wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::1593:1394:a91f:8f5f%19]) with mapi; Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:39:06 +0100 From: Ray Bellis To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Thread-Topic: WG session draft minutes Thread-Index: AQHNHJcTFLvSxZksT0+hUu1H74SHLg== Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 12:39:06 +0000 Message-ID: <8591152F-A691-46AA-9064-E4099C34A25D@nominet.org.uk> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8591152FA69146AA9064E4099C34A25Dnominetorguk_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [homenet] WG session draft minutes X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 12:39:16 -0000 --_000_8591152FA69146AA9064E4099C34A25Dnominetorguk_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Draft minutes from the Paris session are now online at: Please send any corrections by Tuesday 1st May at the latest. thanks, Ray --_000_8591152FA69146AA9064E4099C34A25Dnominetorguk_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <37139a76-a4bd-4f03-b34d-73e7af3dc915> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Draft minutes from the Paris session = are now online at:


Please= send any corrections by Tuesday 1st May at the latest.

thanks,

Ray

= --_000_8591152FA69146AA9064E4099C34A25Dnominetorguk_-- From jari.arkko@piuha.net Mon Apr 23 03:39:20 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9139B21F86AF for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2012 03:39:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QDvrSrD9QulY for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2012 03:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99BB21F869A for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2012 03:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 526892CC5D for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:39:18 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4qhRRoitXMyJ for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:39:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B272CC56 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:39:16 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4F953154.80604@piuha.net> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 13:39:16 +0300 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "homenet@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [homenet] homenet ospfv3 implementation X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:39:20 -0000 FYI. I've made some progress with my implementation. I held a presentation on this at RIPE this week: http://thingsonip.blogspot.com/2012/04/home-networks-by-magic.html There are a couple of relevant points to raise -- implementation and usage experience always brings up things that one did not think of when writing specifications. Here are some high-level ones: It is surprising how many connections an autoconfiguration software (running inside OSPFv3 in this case) has to the rest of the system. Sources of prefixes. Users of prefixes. Etc. There may be a need for system APIs that allow various system components to work together with the autoconfiguration software. The implementation effort made me think about DNS in a completely different way than what we had been discussing in the WG before. The WG had focused on name resolution Bonjour-style within the entire home vs. a single link. While that is useful, name resolution for the Internet seemed an even more important topic, and getting that autoconfigured is not trivial (unless you assume IPv4 name server use in a dual stack setting). I still don't know what exactly the right approach is, but I think we need to pay more attention to this than we have so far. Or at least I have. One of aspect of this is to ensure DNS discovery works. IPv6-only and NAT64-networks require special care. If you have a NAT64 device, behind that device you want to use its DNS64 but elsewhere you do not. Timing of various events needs thought. If you come up, how long do you wait until you generate ULA space if you don't hear from others or if the others have no global space either? Jari From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Mon Apr 23 03:49:01 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65FC821F86C3 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2012 03:49:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kWAgTEzD8xFS for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2012 03:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.nominet.org.uk (mx3.nominet.org.uk [213.248.199.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F00621F86B2 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2012 03:48:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:Received:From:To:Subject: Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:Date:Message-ID:References: In-Reply-To:Accept-Language:Content-Language: X-MS-Has-Attach:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:Content-Type: MIME-Version; b=62m1IjgB36vcZ8/exAtOQWXlhKFkcbazQZvqUQifKLRE4YOSVidxl9bx fpVphpju5nVLJythrWpsQfCbkJDVBoQr92t37Bo7uyuFNYpPVL+91RAaZ 1EXKlT1MpFyyu1u; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1335178140; x=1366714140; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray=20Bellis=20 |Subject:=20Re:=20[homenet]=20homenet=20ospfv3=20implemen tation|Date:=20Mon,=2023=20Apr=202012=2010:48:56=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20<8361D945-2645-4D2D-9499-23B31C812464@nomi net.org.uk>|To:=20"homenet@ietf.org=20Group"=20|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20<4F953154.806 04@piuha.net>|References:=20<4F953154.80604@piuha.net>; bh=mxAPuU6bIsR4pRBe/ahvuN9bBZpRRYmAZDNnpZOwQyk=; b=HFErX8jCKDpPiKAwq45GkP245bnchy2LZKO1curh3NDrZwgiv+rrzIbG qxxoXRb9PhxSJGxjznG5ocqPGnb6Hrdx0o1ZOPHLIC9nYZrot2lKLTsdv C/xwy3byiEvktvg; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,466,1330905600"; d="scan'208,217";a="39934872" Received: from wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.144]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 23 Apr 2012 11:48:58 +0100 Received: from WDS-EXC2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::7577:eaca:5241:25d4]) by wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::1593:1394:a91f:8f5f%19]) with mapi; Mon, 23 Apr 2012 11:48:57 +0100 From: Ray Bellis To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Thread-Topic: [homenet] homenet ospfv3 implementation Thread-Index: AQHNIT1bh0LCS02DtkO5CjmnGF8G85aoKh4A Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:48:56 +0000 Message-ID: <8361D945-2645-4D2D-9499-23B31C812464@nominet.org.uk> References: <4F953154.80604@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: <4F953154.80604@piuha.net> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8361D94526454D2D949923B31C812464nominetorguk_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [homenet] homenet ospfv3 implementation X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:49:01 -0000 --_000_8361D94526454D2D949923B31C812464nominetorguk_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 23 Apr 2012, at 11:39, Jari Arkko wrote: FYI. I've made some progress with my implementation. I held a presentation = on this at RIPE this week: http://thingsonip.blogspot.com/2012/04/home-networks-by-magic.html Video of the presentation has also just been put online: Ray --_000_8361D94526454D2D949923B31C812464nominetorguk_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <5b70a82f-4d0a-4239-b876-4331b6cc97f2> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 23 Apr 2012, at 11:3= 9, Jari Arkko wrote:

FYI. I've made some progress with my implementation. = I held a presentation on this at RIPE this week:

http://thingson= ip.blogspot.com/2012/04/home-networks-by-magic.html

Video of the presentation has also just been put online:<= /div>

Ray

= --_000_8361D94526454D2D949923B31C812464nominetorguk_--