From mike@mtcc.com Sun May 6 12:32:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4387C21F848A for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 12:32:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.479 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.479 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.120, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oTleMvF53LS8 for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 12:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA7FA21F851B for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 12:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from piolinux.mtcc.com (65-172-208-69.dsl.volcano.net [65.172.208.69]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q46JW1BX020024 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 12:32:02 -0700 Message-ID: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 12:31:57 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080501) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1869; t=1336332722; x=1337196722; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20[SPAM]=20I=20have=20a=20problem |Sender:=20 |To:=20homenet@ietf.org |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=jc5iNirZrhHl3byWB//S4wLT/P7aVyeTguTKWZBUfFo=; b=rC8iWLJ5pB9PwHsbk77GGCz7ggP3siTNHGxyY6VQuYDzrafemnX/axa5LN 55HQs7zKL0s6KDRrkvHC2k7O323z3MzO+F73Yp1oFLkwBEypVmJc2jVJ19u+ KWmGKy21Koz32Z1Ai0ZEytk9xtfpteJXEY3yr91YZGGlGd+94km/E=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Subject: [homenet] [SPAM] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 19:32:03 -0000 I suspect many/most of you do too. Looking through the charter and arch doc, my primary problem is that I'm probably way off charter, but I'm not sure so I'll ask. When I'm out and about, there are zillions of wifi opportunities. Who runs them and for what reason, I haven't the foggiest idea. Some of them are undoubtedly malicious, many more poorly run. So it's fairly crazy to use them. But like a lot of people, connectivity often trumps sanity. What I'd really like is to not feel dirty when I do that. The most obvious thing to do is to use a VPN, but I don't have a corporate mothership these days so I'd have to set all of that up, and it would most likely have to be through my home linux box since my el cheapo home router doesn't know about IPsec afaik. Not to mention that even if *I* could move heaven and earth to protect my posterior, the vast unwashed masses are not so fortunate. So why did I come to homenet to complain? Well, it's because I can't think of another place that I'd reasonably place the other end of my VPN but on my home net. As far as I can tell, there aren't many places to dogleg my traffic to avoid access network fun and games. My ISP doesn't care about this problem let alone doing anything fancy like running a mobile ip home agent which would be even better of course. Nor do I see others, so I'm not holding my breath. Yes, I know the performance would be miserable given the asymmetric nature of cable/dsl. But it would at least not allow $EVILSHOP to do nasty things with my unencrypted traffic, and traffic analysis on the rest. That said, even if this is widely off charter, another aspect may not: if we have lots of new services in our homes I may very well want to access them remotely. If VPN's are good enough for corpro, then mightn't the same be true for my home networks too? Mike From dwing@cisco.com Sun May 6 14:24:10 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56CD21F8535 for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 14:24:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HhdVVn-+ebWf for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 14:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BBC21F852E for ; Sun, 6 May 2012 14:24:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; l=2972; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1336339449; x=1337549049; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WngE4Ealy2tkCziLgAmZl/C2FOmjmdWB28aHC4kRao4=; b=T8dlxBHF3+gzY2Do7P2EOY+FhaTbNx45rnyKgmv199UIm7axVTu+H/e/ 1PFOqIJWSparO5pyVbp/3rLuHQa7nCpRrsFpWWoBrjNmiDkhKA3FkMpj+ Lc/294IRSNfQ1i2tJHwQ70tjvobBrEgIYxYUd2X2n95yTkwdIjr10MZjZ g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhgFACrrpk+Q/khR/2dsb2JhbABEolaQGIEHggwBAQEECAoBFxBLAQMCCQ4BAgQBASgHGSMKCQgBAQQBEgsXh2wLmk6ef4p/hiAEiGSFFokVjUiBaYMJ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,540,1330905600"; d="scan'208";a="72553608" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.72.81]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 May 2012 21:24:08 +0000 Received: from dwingWS ([10.32.240.195]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q46LO7XG002014; Sun, 6 May 2012 21:24:07 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Michael Thomas'" , References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 14:24:14 -0700 Message-ID: <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac0rvu1h5Jb6haNYRpyFRRQLUQLYbwADo6Ng Content-Language: en-us Subject: Re: [homenet] [SPAM] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 21:24:11 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: homenet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Michael Thomas > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 12:32 PM > To: homenet@ietf.org > Subject: [homenet] [SPAM] I have a problem > > I suspect many/most of you do too. Looking through the charter and arch > doc, my primary problem > is that I'm probably way off charter, but I'm not sure so I'll ask. > > When I'm out and about, there are zillions of wifi opportunities. Who > runs them and for what > reason, I haven't the foggiest idea. Some of them are undoubtedly > malicious, many more poorly > run. So it's fairly crazy to use them. But like a lot of people, > connectivity often trumps sanity. > > What I'd really like is to not feel dirty when I do that. The most > obvious thing to do is to > use a VPN, but I don't have a corporate mothership these days so I'd > have to set all of that > up, and it would most likely have to be through my home linux box since > my el cheapo home > router doesn't know about IPsec afaik. Not to mention that even if *I* > could move > heaven and earth to protect my posterior, the vast unwashed masses are > not so fortunate. > > So why did I come to homenet to complain? Well, it's because I can't > think of another place > that I'd reasonably place the other end of my VPN but on my home net. > As far as I can tell, there > aren't many places to dogleg my traffic to avoid access network fun and > games. My ISP doesn't > care about this problem let alone doing anything fancy like running a > mobile ip home agent > which would be even better of course. Nor do I see others, so I'm not > holding my breath. > > Yes, I know the performance would be miserable given the asymmetric > nature of cable/dsl. But > it would at least not allow $EVILSHOP to do nasty things with my > unencrypted traffic, and > traffic analysis on the rest. > > That said, even if this is widely off charter, another aspect may not: > if we have lots of new > services in our homes I may very well want to access them remotely. If > VPN's are good enough > for corpro, then mightn't the same be true for my home networks too? "Understanding Apple's Back to My Mac (BTMM) Service", http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6281 is an interesting read. Regarding where to terminate the VPN, see its Section 7.3.2 titled "Discussion: End-to-End Encryption" which lists some disadvantages to terminating the VPN at the home gateway. There is also SIP-initiated IPsec, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6193, which terminates the VPN on the home gateway. To your point that connectivity trumps sanity, if such VPNs were commonplace, an active attacker would interfere with attempts to bring up such VPNs. And the user's desire for connectivity would cause the user to skip setting up their VPN, under the mistaken assumption that their home network is down or otherwise unavailable. -d From mike@mtcc.com Mon May 7 10:25:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F6D21F8652 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:25:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nA5I1RUOP2W5 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173DC21F864E for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 10:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q47HPGKm000345 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 May 2012 10:25:17 -0700 Message-ID: <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 10:25:16 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Wing References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> In-Reply-To: <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4333; t=1336411517; x=1337275517; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20I=20have=20a=20problem |Sender:=20 |To:=20Dan=20Wing=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=y8QHGfJi1FQ3M+MmC01mBzAdiH+5RRM/RlVKgEz1J68=; b=Y2an6hnGgWUYjM7l6enUKLO5bBGZD3Q/xl7Leg7CL3XVTMSJuD5kQl8k5u Zfdjk6UYkbEmDTRs1uWIHurP1kTrxkygJCDY+Nc/iF3EgCU5pNSUiT27SOkO F96qbeYwUTTQXjFBTp4f7cfRAohhsxMU5TIqqEq5VHsxkMfcN3n88=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 17:25:23 -0000 On 05/06/2012 02:24 PM, Dan Wing wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: homenet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Michael Thomas >> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 12:32 PM >> To: homenet@ietf.org >> Subject: [homenet] [SPAM] I have a problem >> >> I suspect many/most of you do too. Looking through the charter and arch >> doc, my primary problem >> is that I'm probably way off charter, but I'm not sure so I'll ask. >> >> When I'm out and about, there are zillions of wifi opportunities. Who >> runs them and for what >> reason, I haven't the foggiest idea. Some of them are undoubtedly >> malicious, many more poorly >> run. So it's fairly crazy to use them. But like a lot of people, >> connectivity often trumps sanity. >> >> What I'd really like is to not feel dirty when I do that. The most >> obvious thing to do is to >> use a VPN, but I don't have a corporate mothership these days so I'd >> have to set all of that >> up, and it would most likely have to be through my home linux box since >> my el cheapo home >> router doesn't know about IPsec afaik. Not to mention that even if *I* >> could move >> heaven and earth to protect my posterior, the vast unwashed masses are >> not so fortunate. >> >> So why did I come to homenet to complain? Well, it's because I can't >> think of another place >> that I'd reasonably place the other end of my VPN but on my home net. >> As far as I can tell, there >> aren't many places to dogleg my traffic to avoid access network fun and >> games. My ISP doesn't >> care about this problem let alone doing anything fancy like running a >> mobile ip home agent >> which would be even better of course. Nor do I see others, so I'm not >> holding my breath. >> >> Yes, I know the performance would be miserable given the asymmetric >> nature of cable/dsl. But >> it would at least not allow $EVILSHOP to do nasty things with my >> unencrypted traffic, and >> traffic analysis on the rest. >> >> That said, even if this is widely off charter, another aspect may not: >> if we have lots of new >> services in our homes I may very well want to access them remotely. If >> VPN's are good enough >> for corpro, then mightn't the same be true for my home networks too? > "Understanding Apple's Back to My Mac (BTMM) Service", > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6281 is an interesting read. > Regarding where to terminate the VPN, see its Section 7.3.2 titled > "Discussion: End-to-End Encryption" which lists some disadvantages > to terminating the VPN at the home gateway. I don't really see that as helpful as the current reality is that I can't get an ipsec tunnel to anything in my home as a practical reality. Yes, if I am sufficiently geekly I can terminate it back at a PC or Mac or Linux box -- all of which exact their own pound of flesh for the effort. All would require their own credentials enrollment too. At least at the home router demark I'd only have to go through that exercise once, and with maybe with some auto config pixie dust it might not even be much harder than using wifi which people manifestly seem to be able to do. In any case, that sort of tradeoff might be a reason that this is interesting to this wg, especially if you think of this in terms of routing within a home -- a vpn is just another interface, right? > > There is also SIP-initiated IPsec, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6193, > which terminates the VPN on the home gateway. > > To your point that connectivity trumps sanity, if such VPNs were > commonplace, an active attacker would interfere with attempts to > bring up such VPNs. And the user's desire for connectivity would > cause the user to skip setting up their VPN, under the mistaken > assumption that their home network is down or otherwise unavailable. Well, people already use vpn's on the road and in evil places now, it's just that they're doing it through a corpro vpn back at the mothership. I just want to be able to have the same choice when I'm doing this on my own dime. As it stands, I can't do that for all intents and purposes. Mike > > -d > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > From dwing@cisco.com Mon May 7 11:39:51 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CBFB21F8462 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 11:39:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.217 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.217 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.382, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ELqPzrz-ncK6 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 11:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F8C21F8460 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 11:39:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; l=1146; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1336415990; x=1337625590; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date: message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aSMC8N1eiaKqWWBUhawGk8VnV63V9Ic+0bpirnFDj/A=; b=f7bOlndvBAZG47ptCMadQPM9JcZ8+iOu9JkHWgh1lBpKWeD0GZ8kkyfF aOLOrn5/67CgGPx3Dtqy8/eDO1y8OMc120qXh86q6fABL1KQcohdKpo0M Qy9UtZyerG6vteqnpHvfD0NHoM0w1uTC/2hhVrFFCL92PIdSUxMZgT/70 Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgkFAPYVqE+rRDoI/2dsb2JhbABEomCQPYEHgg0BAQQICgEXED8NAwIJDgE3GSMbAQEEHhAHhXCBe5sioAqRHwSIZIUWll2BaYMJgT4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,545,1330905600"; d="scan'208";a="43742818" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 May 2012 18:39:50 +0000 Received: from dwingWS ([10.32.240.195]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q47IdnZp022302; Mon, 7 May 2012 18:39:50 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Michael Thomas'" References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 11:39:57 -0700 Message-ID: <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac0sdmGrJacKKdplTFearuaCyuo0ZgACXghw Content-Language: en-us Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 18:39:51 -0000 ... > Well, people already use vpn's on the road and in evil places now, > it's just that they're doing it through a corpro vpn back at the > mothership. > I just want to be able to have the same choice when I'm doing this on > my own dime. As it stands, I can't do that for all intents and > purposes. Apple's Back to My Mac, Microsoft's DirectAccess, and the SIP VPN method all rely on one important thing: a rendezvous service. Apple's solution is aimed at consumers and uses Apple's me.com domain. Microsoft's solution is aimed at corporate users and uses IT-operated servers. The SIP VPN method uses SIP proxies. We could imagine someone specifying XMPP for such a thing, too. But the prototypical "Grandma" does not have access to a rendezvous service, unless she participates in the Apple ecosystem (and uses Apple's me.com as the rendezvous service). I don't know how to make one of these systems work without a rendezvous service, and it seems nobody else does, either -- all of them rely on some sort of rendezvous service that is separate from the service provided by the typical residential ISP. -d From mike@mtcc.com Mon May 7 11:50:51 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDD221F85E6 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 11:50:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lVeBRGd2tWZa for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 11:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7534C21F8604 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 11:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q47Iohwd002594 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 May 2012 11:50:43 -0700 Message-ID: <4FA81983.4090309@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 11:50:43 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Wing References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> In-Reply-To: <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1752; t=1336416644; x=1337280644; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20I=20have=20a=20problem |Sender:=20 |To:=20Dan=20Wing=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=mMcNaWUI84zhrDDE+i3PKWMowKO/pjYkgweQ0S7J2jI=; b=PIBNLAGvyAuSL6/qMbyJbIBTmwLOum9/mrTWDYMCKxGEc+85bsUHa9WqJR bjgHloBpw6LZLF+K0ZQS+olNdrLxm0BeZqkYFTupbRx3kKiV505greBcCgqM bO7Mf8AFDa7wvDLnWWAYSnTb69WK45CFOXltFpshoBWUL/N0qxNiU=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 18:50:51 -0000 On 05/07/2012 11:39 AM, Dan Wing wrote: > ... >> Well, people already use vpn's on the road and in evil places now, >> it's just that they're doing it through a corpro vpn back at the >> mothership. >> I just want to be able to have the same choice when I'm doing this on >> my own dime. As it stands, I can't do that for all intents and >> purposes. > Apple's Back to My Mac, Microsoft's DirectAccess, and the SIP > VPN method all rely on one important thing: a rendezvous service. > Apple's solution is aimed at consumers and uses Apple's me.com > domain. Microsoft's solution is aimed at corporate users and > uses IT-operated servers. The SIP VPN method uses SIP proxies. > We could imagine someone specifying XMPP for such a thing, too. > > But the prototypical "Grandma" does not have access to a > rendezvous service, unless she participates in the Apple > ecosystem (and uses Apple's me.com as the rendezvous service). > > I don't know how to make one of these systems work without a > rendezvous service, and it seems nobody else does, either -- > all of them rely on some sort of rendezvous service that is > separate from the service provided by the typical residential > ISP. > Ah, but a lot of that thinking seems to be rooted in the v4 mindset where home ip addresses are ephemeral, right? In a v6 world, why can't I just put a AAAA record in some name server just like everything else on the net that wants to be reached by name, since the IP subnet I have at home doesn't have to change on a regular basis due to the need to recycle v4 addresses? No nat, no dhcp*, no other hacks simplifies this a lot it seems to me. Mike [*] in the rotating ip address sense, not in the discovery sense. From kerlyn2001@gmail.com Mon May 7 12:14:36 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5182C21F846D for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 12:14:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.828 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.828 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.518, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id co1y6XrhOPYc for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 12:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f172.google.com (mail-lb0-f172.google.com [209.85.217.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A6321F845B for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 12:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbgo11 with SMTP id go11so4202860lbb.31 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 12:14:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=bJo4T3z5G38evEqiNkPvdW0q3cl5PgHsJLvlNG+yIkg=; b=Gr7WIycwS1euhTsmMk/bSumno/lMACEW0QprYcIUo3xocmSWC26W9nE0+DLoQEt5mL rdZi86aUQyIu7cr+jtkD5K9Kr5gVw5RcZQT/i5Pd+Dlpe7B1/q/SGZwKk3FFHtvZl87L uQ2vSQ3VvXqTruHJtM3TVBYsqjtzSpb6VRkRIjECCkKS0F4vPIVICfRJww1aRKceJwmI cJ076wuvqqRkmk3EnBHyeqJb+g2Jb6LkPJ+MKDbw2y4VY2aEitCMa56T3Plo6CPVL3GZ PXWrW6fvktUheHBfgl1TSSxrM+uVtjeR+JP2BbjM8F4G4N5EzjQZPl/fpXC8bzk/owuC 0Wug== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.45.230 with SMTP id q6mr7465647lbm.103.1336418073460; Mon, 07 May 2012 12:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Sender: kerlyn2001@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.18.138 with HTTP; Mon, 7 May 2012 12:14:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4FA81983.4090309@mtcc.com> References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> <4FA81983.4090309@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 15:14:33 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: VEhh6TiDBjwZtiTpP13iIxp0J5k Message-ID: From: Kerry Lynn To: Dan Wing Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec554de608a40d904bf771484 Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Michael Thomas Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 19:14:36 -0000 --bcaec554de608a40d904bf771484 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 05/07/2012 11:39 AM, Dan Wing wrote: > >> ... >> >>> Well, people already use vpn's on the road and in evil places now, >>> it's just that they're doing it through a corpro vpn back at the >>> mothership. >>> I just want to be able to have the same choice when I'm doing this on >>> my own dime. As it stands, I can't do that for all intents and >>> purposes. >>> >> Apple's Back to My Mac, Microsoft's DirectAccess, and the SIP >> VPN method all rely on one important thing: a rendezvous service. >> Apple's solution is aimed at consumers and uses Apple's me.com >> domain. Microsoft's solution is aimed at corporate users and >> uses IT-operated servers. The SIP VPN method uses SIP proxies. >> We could imagine someone specifying XMPP for such a thing, too. >> >> But the prototypical "Grandma" does not have access to a >> rendezvous service, unless she participates in the Apple >> ecosystem (and uses Apple's me.com as the rendezvous service). >> >> I don't know how to make one of these systems work without a >> rendezvous service, and it seems nobody else does, either -- >> all of them rely on some sort of rendezvous service that is >> separate from the service provided by the typical residential >> ISP. >> >> Is this fundamentally different than the service provided by e.g. DynDNS - the ability to update a publicly visible FQDN binding? -K- > > Ah, but a lot of that thinking seems to be rooted in the v4 > mindset where home ip addresses are ephemeral, right? In a v6 > world, why can't I just put a AAAA record in some name server > just like everything else on the net that wants to be reached > by name, since the IP subnet I have at home doesn't have to > change on a regular basis due to the need to recycle v4 > addresses? > > No nat, no dhcp*, no other hacks simplifies this a lot it seems > to me. > > Mike > > [*] in the rotating ip address sense, not in the discovery sense. > > ______________________________**_________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/homenet > --bcaec554de608a40d904bf771484 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> w= rote:
On 05/07/2012 11:39 AM, Dan Wing wrote:
...
Well, people already use vpn's on the road and in evil places now,
it's just that they're doing it through a corpro vpn back at the mothership.
I just want to be able to have the same choice when I'm doing this on my own dime. As it stands, I can't do that for all intents and
purposes.
Apple's Back to My Mac, Microsoft's DirectAccess, and the SIP
VPN method all rely on one important thing: =A0a rendezvous service.
Apple's solution is aimed at consumers and uses Apple's me.com
domain. =A0Microsoft's solution is aimed at corporate users and
uses IT-operated servers. =A0The SIP VPN method uses SIP proxies.
We could imagine someone specifying XMPP for such a thing, too.

But the prototypical "Grandma" does not have access to a
rendezvous service, unless she participates in the Apple
ecosystem (and uses Apple's me.com as the rendezvous service).

I don't know how to make one of these systems work without a
rendezvous service, and it seems nobody else does, either --
all of them rely on some sort of rendezvous service that is
separate from the service provided by the typical residential
ISP.

Is this fundamentally different th= an the service provided by e.g.
DynDNS - the ability to update a = publicly visible FQDN binding?

-K-=A0

Ah, but a lot of that thinking seems to be rooted in the v4
mindset where home ip addresses are ephemeral, right? In a v6
world, why can't I just put a AAAA record in some name server
just like everything else on the net that wants to be reached
by name, since the IP subnet I have at home doesn't have to
change on a regular basis due to the need to recycle v4
addresses?

No nat, no dhcp*, no other hacks simplifies this a lot it seems
to me.

Mike

[*] in the rotating ip address sense, not in the discovery sense.

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--bcaec554de608a40d904bf771484-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Mon May 7 12:27:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FB4121F863E for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 12:27:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y2BJgS4koDvc for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 12:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [67.23.6.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A35721F8581 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 12:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 786EB8CAE; Mon, 7 May 2012 15:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 00E1398B98; Mon, 7 May 2012 15:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marajade.sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D9398141; Mon, 7 May 2012 15:27:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 15:27:15 -0400 Message-ID: <17069.1336418835@marajade.sandelman.ca> Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: c.donley@cableslabs.com, c.grundemann@cablelabs.com Subject: [homenet] draft-gmann-homenet-relay-autoconf- X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 19:27:18 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I read this document just now. What I understand is that level-2+ routers go to "the" ISP to get an additional /64. The ISP could return anything... it might be good if it returned a /64 adjacent to those already assigned, but it can do anything. The ISP->customers assignments are not aggregated. This has interesting properties for efficient use of address space, and also for permitting home networks to be as big or small as desired. There is really no additional overhead in the homenet, as one is likely throwing /64 routes around most of the time anyway. For the ISP, it's up to them. My only problem is that I don't understand how it works when you have two ISPs. - -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works IETF ROLL WG co-chair. http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/roll/charter/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Finger me for keys iQEVAwUBT6giEYCLcPvd0N1lAQKzgwf9F5+NE49/103W019Tf7y3mJYbiqBwNs8T MM2dMqZ+Eqj8JU+WTWkRbsCbBh8GNN42e0EXEUZUsd/Shzz8R09nbYQR4VY4kror +Acr+6m+t56jXyYOg7x166sOjPyfVG75B2J6eiXvTSP+jeYmb42OuihDuartwPAB V3lKVzfKi8E3LWhlngf2eGeB5f1K4ja8S+nW0JmHPDS56rNEDeqQFOEAWGAx367H Yicu1VYVyon3hqYFis3FwXsx+8RjqNs/zf4WLIgz8q2HaOZGZurj7y4eYd4fIofU DypxPcyyUNAorWDh0N2sc4AHTnpI7pH3Ih6B+SCYMFHEq7jrMQGG0g== =wZDh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dwing@cisco.com Mon May 7 14:20:20 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C1B721F866B for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 14:20:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.350, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aS2FCiXCy70b for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 14:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtv-iport-4.cisco.com (mtv-iport-4.cisco.com [173.36.130.15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D6021F8668 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 14:20:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; l=2698; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1336425614; x=1337635214; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date: message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/V7+OKL55MBgD/PPB7p51lVKRDrH4Q4byrFfnXBHozw=; b=E0TT9Drqhbq7+/6LyhefJj0QDPC3pImDvIJHy1BY2cUOAJN3GbnIXCLE O/6/9TqfZ4gfZ0uWBv3pJks7dRgWYRHCniqIWXslpWsm1DdzLRwFZ3TFZ xc8CgxvPgphDyz7n/mqqdasSg4sbEiD+1jEqVOBW+v0BJD36xAy3rCV1k 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgsFAHc7qE+rRDoG/2dsb2JhbABEomKQPYEHggwBAQEECAoBFxA2CQwBAwIJDgECBAEBAScHGSMKCQgBAQQTCxAHhXCBe5sIoBGKf4YJBIhkhRaWXYFpgwmBPg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,546,1330905600"; d="scan'208";a="43766799" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by mtv-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 May 2012 21:20:14 +0000 Received: from dwingWS ([10.32.240.195]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q47LKD6l009457; Mon, 7 May 2012 21:20:14 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Michael Thomas'" References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> <4FA81983.4090309@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <4FA81983.4090309@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 14:20:21 -0700 Message-ID: <025d01cd2c97$35eeaad0$a1cc0070$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac0sglNjFnI389MrTUqOdXEh7H0OQQACL2Ng Content-Language: en-us Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 21:20:20 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mike@mtcc.com] > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 11:51 AM > To: Dan Wing > Cc: homenet@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem > > On 05/07/2012 11:39 AM, Dan Wing wrote: > > ... > >> Well, people already use vpn's on the road and in evil places now, > >> it's just that they're doing it through a corpro vpn back at the > >> mothership. > >> I just want to be able to have the same choice when I'm doing this > on > >> my own dime. As it stands, I can't do that for all intents and > >> purposes. > > Apple's Back to My Mac, Microsoft's DirectAccess, and the SIP > > VPN method all rely on one important thing: a rendezvous service. > > Apple's solution is aimed at consumers and uses Apple's me.com > > domain. Microsoft's solution is aimed at corporate users and > > uses IT-operated servers. The SIP VPN method uses SIP proxies. > > We could imagine someone specifying XMPP for such a thing, too. > > > > But the prototypical "Grandma" does not have access to a > > rendezvous service, unless she participates in the Apple > > ecosystem (and uses Apple's me.com as the rendezvous service). > > > > I don't know how to make one of these systems work without a > > rendezvous service, and it seems nobody else does, either -- > > all of them rely on some sort of rendezvous service that is > > separate from the service provided by the typical residential > > ISP. > > > > Ah, but a lot of that thinking seems to be rooted in the v4 > mindset where home ip addresses are ephemeral, right? In a v6 > world, why can't I just put a AAAA record in some name server > just like everything else on the net that wants to be reached > by name, since the IP subnet I have at home doesn't have to > change on a regular basis due to the need to recycle v4 > addresses? > > No nat, no dhcp*, no other hacks simplifies this a lot it seems > to me. > > Mike > > [*] in the rotating ip address sense, not in the discovery sense. If the subscriber's IP address really is static, the subscriber can avoid DNS entirely, and just put their static IPv6 (or IPv4) address into their portable computing device (tablet, PC, whatever) and they're done. That way, the user doesn't need to know how to edit a zone file or beg their ISP for a FQDN. That leaves the user with the complication of configuring a VPN on their consumer-grade router and on their portable computing device (table, PC, whatever). Still pretty hard. There are small/medium business routers that support VPN, and could do this already for IPv4. Many of them probably lack IPv6 support yet, though. -d From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Mon May 7 23:49:37 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6DA21F85D6 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 23:49:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.122, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3By6nl8Q0hNt for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 23:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-f44.google.com (mail-wg0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC83321F85D3 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 23:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgbdr13 with SMTP id dr13so3938886wgb.13 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 23:49:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZdiNw2jJlrmOdSUqLg5KcJ0L1guFV5B6Mni++MDtt8c=; b=efcbVwTnfD+lzxXaEOyrhupShAwHCh8z6lvJyDlFQKZvKvKQwl79tsl4X4s+WaxRwb a6t2NJDNXpIyUbG0D6VgPmrbAq9ct11XF5uJTxKpVyDm30sOosQCTllrbyD9xJGasx0E rgDV5XuoFjVZ13oPHfi/9YwStpXfKTr1zoSXWijO4xZKO2GxeuB6QhbkLdcQ3IdXYN8Q xPK61lzun3jywW7B/CkEKpu0/b3QSaXB3YaLBJIc6GGhJ+eCnBmt49wPDMeR/5BYBQAl YCuJpfC5RNQ2rotsjhOU8sh11hrfa/d2ylPNGvMayAEZt07aFqAcEnMQpQGsqfUZq0nB eFdg== Received: by 10.216.134.145 with SMTP id s17mr3234049wei.22.1336459775688; Mon, 07 May 2012 23:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-102-216-118.as13285.net. [2.102.216.118]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f19sm42851650wiw.11.2012.05.07.23.49.33 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 07 May 2012 23:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FA8C1FB.4080804@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 07:49:31 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <17069.1336418835@marajade.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <17069.1336418835@marajade.sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: homenet@ietf.org, c.donley@cableslabs.com, c.grundemann@cablelabs.com Subject: Re: [homenet] draft-gmann-homenet-relay-autoconf- X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 06:49:37 -0000 On 2012-05-07 20:27, Michael Richardson wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > I read this document just now. > What I understand is that level-2+ routers go to "the" ISP to get an > additional /64. The ISP could return anything... it might be good if it > returned a /64 adjacent to those already assigned, but it can do > anything. The ISP->customers assignments are not aggregated. Not *necessarily* aggregated. I would have thought aggregation remains valuable. > > This has interesting properties for efficient use of address space, and > also for permitting home networks to be as big or small as desired. Efficiency at the level of filling /56s really isn't a worry, is it? It would just be simpler to allocate each subscriber a /56. > There is really no additional overhead in the homenet, as one is likely > throwing /64 routes around most of the time anyway. For the ISP, it's > up to them. > > My only problem is that I don't understand how it works when you have > two ISPs. I think both of these assumptions will be false for a substantial fraction of subscribers: This document assumes that the vast majority of home networks will connect to a single ISP and will be generally constructed in a tree architecture. Brian From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Mon May 7 23:52:24 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED38621F85E5 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 23:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.119, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z-cfX6r1GkJC for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 23:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ee0-f44.google.com (mail-ee0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E1B321F85E3 for ; Mon, 7 May 2012 23:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by eekd4 with SMTP id d4so522843eek.31 for ; Mon, 07 May 2012 23:52:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=FDKXuorYwtG8x9fPg+Wjkg4N7s0kk7dmoad7e90a1eQ=; b=HAbZDWkOxZA5JCo3+mcCKDIFIkB1B+RJuKq/5TY/NwEijoFq51X7UgbKJh70VhBs0t Uy6u6F64uXTGIYyPK0ipmrhYtbGvNLBQmo9m2w/Dai8w0bfc84tk2Wc/7jnWOwFhF5/D 34jyX9KZcUc73juTZtgg7BEAC0/qbsTqwmZZ4GVhQY7MTHICN0PSRDcFO2/DgOASnqK0 opem+Zf0A2Yyl3DpyvC4UHyV/cQjnGoKcgzc0EfM8xgW/afyGOtm8cSw2NlRzzRiib2j bx0kUhmhHTEbsBAdJE2zeiPqGSPg9Fk6JEopqKZUIZV7dflg4nTY9W8q0NZ0muifdLzP 4YKw== Received: by 10.213.14.143 with SMTP id g15mr1698521eba.52.1336459942156; Mon, 07 May 2012 23:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-102-216-118.as13285.net. [2.102.216.118]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y53sm97632570eea.3.2012.05.07.23.52.20 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 07 May 2012 23:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FA8C2A1.1090304@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 07:52:17 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Wing References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> <4FA81983.4090309@mtcc.com> <025d01cd2c97$35eeaad0$a1cc0070$@com> In-Reply-To: <025d01cd2c97$35eeaad0$a1cc0070$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: homenet@ietf.org, 'Michael Thomas' Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 06:52:24 -0000 Can we either have a problem statement draft or declare this out of scope? IMHO it's a legitimate topic but probably one for later. Regards Brian On 2012-05-07 22:20, Dan Wing wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mike@mtcc.com] >> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 11:51 AM >> To: Dan Wing >> Cc: homenet@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem >> >> On 05/07/2012 11:39 AM, Dan Wing wrote: >>> ... >>>> Well, people already use vpn's on the road and in evil places now, >>>> it's just that they're doing it through a corpro vpn back at the >>>> mothership. >>>> I just want to be able to have the same choice when I'm doing this >> on >>>> my own dime. As it stands, I can't do that for all intents and >>>> purposes. >>> Apple's Back to My Mac, Microsoft's DirectAccess, and the SIP >>> VPN method all rely on one important thing: a rendezvous service. >>> Apple's solution is aimed at consumers and uses Apple's me.com >>> domain. Microsoft's solution is aimed at corporate users and >>> uses IT-operated servers. The SIP VPN method uses SIP proxies. >>> We could imagine someone specifying XMPP for such a thing, too. >>> >>> But the prototypical "Grandma" does not have access to a >>> rendezvous service, unless she participates in the Apple >>> ecosystem (and uses Apple's me.com as the rendezvous service). >>> >>> I don't know how to make one of these systems work without a >>> rendezvous service, and it seems nobody else does, either -- >>> all of them rely on some sort of rendezvous service that is >>> separate from the service provided by the typical residential >>> ISP. >>> >> Ah, but a lot of that thinking seems to be rooted in the v4 >> mindset where home ip addresses are ephemeral, right? In a v6 >> world, why can't I just put a AAAA record in some name server >> just like everything else on the net that wants to be reached >> by name, since the IP subnet I have at home doesn't have to >> change on a regular basis due to the need to recycle v4 >> addresses? >> >> No nat, no dhcp*, no other hacks simplifies this a lot it seems >> to me. >> >> Mike >> >> [*] in the rotating ip address sense, not in the discovery sense. > > If the subscriber's IP address really is static, the subscriber > can avoid DNS entirely, and just put their static IPv6 (or > IPv4) address into their portable computing device (tablet, > PC, whatever) and they're done. That way, the user doesn't > need to know how to edit a zone file or beg their ISP for > a FQDN. > > That leaves the user with the complication of configuring a VPN > on their consumer-grade router and on their portable computing > device (table, PC, whatever). Still pretty hard. > > There are small/medium business routers that support VPN, > and could do this already for IPv4. Many of them probably > lack IPv6 support yet, though. > > -d > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue May 8 07:30:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE2F21F84F3 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:30:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.654 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.654 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zMbcm-0zcBT8 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [67.23.6.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5744921F84EF for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (office.nvanjou.isp.novavision.ca [38.102.81.98]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C4808CAF for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 10:29:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 66F7F98B9A; Tue, 8 May 2012 08:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marajade.sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573E698B99 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 08:03:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4FA8C1FB.4080804@gmail.com> References: <17069.1336418835@marajade.sandelman.ca> <4FA8C1FB.4080804@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 08:03:53 -0400 Message-ID: <8216.1336478633@marajade.sandelman.ca> Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] draft-gmann-homenet-relay-autoconf- X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 14:30:35 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Brian" =3D=3D Brian E Carpenter writes: >> I read this document just now. What I understand is that >> level-2+ routers go to "the" ISP to get an additional /64. The >> ISP could return anything... it might be good if it returned a >> /64 adjacent to those already assigned, but it can do anything. >> The ISP->customers assignments are not aggregated. Brian> Not *necessarily* aggregated. I would have thought Brian> aggregation remains valuable. Let me say: The ISP->customers assignments are not aggregated by the customer. If the ISP aggregates it, great. >> This has interesting properties for efficient use of address >> space, and also for permitting home networks to be as big or >> small as desired. Brian> Efficiency at the level of filling /56s really isn't a worry, Brian> is it? It would just be simpler to allocate each subscriber Brian> a /56. I agree, but it's now up to the ISP. >> There is really no additional overhead in the homenet, as one is >> likely throwing /64 routes around most of the time anyway. For >> the ISP, it's up to them. >>=20 >> My only problem is that I don't understand how it works when you >> have two ISPs. Brian> I think both of these assumptions will be false for a Brian> substantial fraction of subscribers: Brian> This document assumes that the vast majority of home Brian> networks will connect to a single ISP and will be generally Brian> constructed in a tree architecture. I agree; it's not a good assumption. I'd rather see the DHCP PD be proxied (rather than snooped) by the border router(s). I think that draft-baker-homenet-prefix-assignment basically does this, but manages the prefixes locally. So, if we agreed that having the ISP delegate /64s as needed was the right answer, then draft-baker-homenet-prefix would solve the problem. =2D-=20 ] He who is tired of Weird Al is tired of life! | firewall= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON |net archit= ect[ ] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device dri= ver[ Kyoto Plus: watch the video then sign the petition.=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAT6kLqYqHRg3pndX9AQJXNQP/fuGFodxSQw/M0yKDTi85pvUt0mzemAKN Cen6MJqaoY7hG440cDrZVtxX8JbHC0oSbTY251+JrIv8rlQMp5Q03+gmupmuLQxN tjeMs+kbJjWHtEaJ3zqqkCjfrshd/5NkgvzkSvCYS3zLZcu2HgCIfxt8G8e9U2tk wZkODeovc6c= =XvfD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue May 8 07:30:35 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6D121F84F0 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:30:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.654 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.654 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id btqrcLjKeEpS for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [67.23.6.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573CC21F84EA for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (office.nvanjou.isp.novavision.ca [38.102.81.98]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49F9B82C6 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 10:29:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id BC26598B9C; Tue, 8 May 2012 08:05:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marajade.sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B805398B9B for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 08:05:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4FA8C2A1.1090304@gmail.com> References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> <4FA81983.4090309@mtcc.com> <025d01cd2c97$35eeaad0$a1cc0070$@com> <4FA8C2A1.1090304@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 08:05:41 -0400 Message-ID: <8574.1336478741@marajade.sandelman.ca> Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 14:30:35 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Brian" =3D=3D Brian E Carpenter writes: Brian> Can we either have a problem statement draft or declare this Brian> out of scope? Brian> IMHO it's a legitimate topic but probably one for later. "for later" +1 This problem can be solved once we figure out how DNS works. =2D-=20 ] He who is tired of Weird Al is tired of life! | firewall= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON |net archit= ect[ ] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device dri= ver[ Kyoto Plus: watch the video then sign the petition.=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAT6kMFYqHRg3pndX9AQKdzgP+PwVUbgaUoF1Mr+OvAJnWd/3uptdxn5CX nAgaRGSn2LJP39X9oHip3Hm27VAIJRdFyGiKYQPQOnSi3MqMS87bG/o8efCqQlbj KIt/JjoNAKuakY1MRjI9OZl78YlPiABk3IT/Y4ldndn2Mjx8LK6KkvJS6Nyxg3sD lCeDmlekP5o= =XAwv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue May 8 07:55:25 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9239521F865B for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:55:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.304 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.304 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YAcH9s4LSEiD for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [67.23.6.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49B821F8661 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 07:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (office.nvanjou.isp.novavision.ca [38.102.81.98]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6CEE82C6; Tue, 8 May 2012 10:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id EDB6998BA2; Tue, 8 May 2012 08:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marajade.sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E922098BA1; Tue, 8 May 2012 08:13:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Dan Wing" In-Reply-To: <025d01cd2c97$35eeaad0$a1cc0070$@com> References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> <4FA81983.4090309@mtcc.com> <025d01cd2c97$35eeaad0$a1cc0070$@com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 08:13:36 -0400 Message-ID: <10249.1336479216@marajade.sandelman.ca> Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: homenet@ietf.org, 'Michael Thomas' Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 14:55:25 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Dan" =3D=3D Dan Wing writes: Dan> If the subscriber's IP address really is static, the subscriber Dan> can avoid DNS entirely, and just put their static IPv6 (or Dan> IPv4) address into their portable computing device (tablet, PC, Dan> whatever) and they're done. That way, the user doesn't need to Dan> know how to edit a zone file or beg their ISP for a FQDN. Dan> That leaves the user with the complication of configuring a VPN Dan> on their consumer-grade router and on their portable computing Dan> device (table, PC, whatever). Still pretty hard. Is the goal communications with the home(net), or is the goal to appear to still be at home ("MobileIP")? If the former, then given end-to-end addressing and routing, transport-mode or /128-tunnel-mode IPsec may be more appropriate. And one may be able to leverage application layer authentication to do=20 channel binding of BTNS-IPsec. Secondly, half the time I've heard people want "remote access/VPN", it's not a security issue, it's a reachability and addressing issue. =2D-=20 ] He who is tired of Weird Al is tired of life! | firewall= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON |net archit= ect[ ] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device dri= ver[ Kyoto Plus: watch the video then sign the petition.=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAT6kN8IqHRg3pndX9AQLP/AQAwCYR/wbOn64fedQLOgYl8W3qUkeL6qa7 T5Q5erXeInQEKoNXRFZazPS5vglsI/TbFitxbBItQnxayzQbRPnktKupoT2dUW57 FmTDMvhSFrb/xAc4I4AVz+/dclm7n//p1y3lZV33xENJ5NSVs0SfkV5b/No268lW fVvIy2bKN+M= =3g1J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mike@mtcc.com Tue May 8 08:08:44 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F5711E80A4 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 08:08:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.544 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.544 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.055, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fmux1hqUeqcX for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 08:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E23F11E809C for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 08:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q48F8blU014500 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 8 May 2012 08:08:38 -0700 Message-ID: <4FA936F5.6030209@mtcc.com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 08:08:37 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> <4FA81983.4090309@mtcc.com> <025d01cd2c97$35eeaad0$a1cc0070$@com> <10249.1336479216@marajade.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <10249.1336479216@marajade.sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1969; t=1336489718; x=1337353718; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20I=20have=20a=20problem |Sender:=20 |To:=20Michael=20Richardson=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=MYMxFl/PE9zqpYCOceK5ZL2aKOkA+fF5QqrB2hDROXg=; b=VilkdumU0cUMwIceE1aszKeG+tUZDa/kERHhamtQUASER5djTCUC/H71wd 4LBY6OsOVzVJDq4YH7Y/oRSgnYTv4keNbnhXjD19E58CBnbN34X98WBWoIka QNhmiRkdDT3ZM94AJaTFqGvuVowMlsjpITszPWbhLv07ca4uF9YVM=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Dan Wing Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 15:08:44 -0000 On 05/08/2012 05:13 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: >>>>>> "Dan" == Dan Wing writes: > Dan> If the subscriber's IP address really is static, the subscriber > Dan> can avoid DNS entirely, and just put their static IPv6 (or > Dan> IPv4) address into their portable computing device (tablet, PC, > Dan> whatever) and they're done. That way, the user doesn't need to > Dan> know how to edit a zone file or beg their ISP for a FQDN. > > Dan> That leaves the user with the complication of configuring a VPN > Dan> on their consumer-grade router and on their portable computing > Dan> device (table, PC, whatever). Still pretty hard. > > Is the goal communications with the home(net), or is the goal to appear > to still be at home ("MobileIP")? > > If the former, then given end-to-end addressing and routing, > transport-mode or /128-tunnel-mode IPsec may be more appropriate. And > one may be able to leverage application layer authentication to do > channel binding of BTNS-IPsec. > > Secondly, half the time I've heard people want "remote access/VPN", it's > not a security issue, it's a reachability and addressing issue. > As I said in my original post, the problem I have is that I don't want to give access to my traffic to unknown and possibly malicious wifi providers. There may be many ways to get around this, but there is nothing in widespread use today, modulo piggybacking on corpro vpn's. I don't want or can't be dependent on corpro vpn's, so now what? One thing seems pretty certain from the mobile ip experience: ISP's aren't going to be stepping up to providing HA's anytime soon. Same goes for VPN termination. So assuming that I want a secure way to get my bits past $EVILCO coffee shop, what's at the other end of my bits? Mike, and pervasive TLS is not a viable answer either since traffic analysis is still pretty incrim^H^H^H^H^Hvaluable From jhw@apple.com Tue May 8 11:25:53 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095A821F8565 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 11:25:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jCWquwJcDPVM for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 11:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (mail-out.apple.com [17.151.62.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ED5C21F8541 for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 11:25:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from relay14.apple.com ([17.128.113.52]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01 (7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTPS id <0M3P001U3V5OQGK0@mail-out.apple.com> for homenet@ietf.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 11:25:51 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807134-b7fe56d000004e7a-8c-4fa9652f490b Received: from kallisti.apple.com (kallisti.apple.com [17.193.13.64]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay14.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 7D.D8.20090.F2569AF4; Tue, 08 May 2012 11:25:51 -0700 (PDT) From: james woodyatt In-reply-to: <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 11:25:50 -0700 Message-id: <08545291-3F56-4403-9B07-793E30755A63@apple.com> References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> To: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1460) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupjluLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42IRPMjroKufutLf4MZBDYv3iw6xODB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr4/Spg8wFEzgqHk38zNrAeJWti5GTQ0LAROL+8QmMELaYxIV7 64HiXBxCArOZJHZ1rmEFSTALaEnc+PeSCcTmFdCTmHl6MZgtLKAuMfHvIrBmNgEViW+X74LF OQWMJBqbroAtYAGKX3vfzgQxR1ti2cLXzBBzbCS+rz/LBLGsn1HiwfOJ7F2MHBwiAiISzdND IQ6SlVi25BbLBEa+WUjOmIXkjFlIxi5gZF7FKFiUmpNYaWiil1hQkJOql5yfu4kRFEoNhSY7 GA/+5D/EKMDBqMTDe/Lpcn8h1sSy4srcQ4wSHMxKIryz1Ff6C/GmJFZWpRblxxeV5qQWH2KU 5mBREuc9KLvAX0ggPbEkNTs1tSC1CCbLxMEp1cBYE7/BRvmqhb3U8xd7jjS/unjGQ0VnftH8 F0W6+cFfdbrUBY68E274OLn/CUfpsaCab5vzjW22/bSc4xOnVLGpRE92Ze0ltQ2P+Ps77zpF bemyvXI/WKvit5xYT5SMhVJDsI8r32LF5+nKV9qjDZ496Oqd/GtnZY8vR9hN9kMSZ7s03689 cEiJpTgj0VCLuag4EQCi4r5yIQIAAA== Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 18:25:53 -0000 On May 7, 2012, at 11:39 , Dan Wing wrote: > > I don't know how to make one of these systems work without a > rendezvous service, and it seems nobody else does, either -- > all of them rely on some sort of rendezvous service that is > separate from the service provided by the typical residential > ISP. The "rendezvous[*]" service used by BTMM is the Domain Name System. There isn't anything particularly magical about BTMM that prevents dyndns.org or anyone else from implementing their own Wide-area Bonjour domain using DNS servers outside of Apple's control. Indeed, some folks do exactly that with their home networks using their own DNS servers. Check out for more details. Also, I too think this discussion is off topic for HOMENET. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, core os networking [*] c.f. From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Wed May 9 00:22:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137A021F847A for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 00:22:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.929, BAYES_20=-0.74, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V50xreCND7Hp for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 00:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.nominet.org.uk (mail.nominet.org.uk [213.248.199.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E39321F8474 for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 00:22:02 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:Received:From:To:CC:Subject: Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:Date:Message-ID:References: In-Reply-To:Accept-Language:Content-Language: X-MS-Has-Attach:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:Content-Type: Content-ID:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=TiAqyGatXwEC3M5Apn/ovTJiQhxwicE+pPnTKQXH0IL8jFaNW5NlMUiW aSom3+4tyadirezgAYEhw8nTI0cepfiK/nltctamM1l5FmK3VnlQ1yqPU Loanee475Q3nzsa; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1336548122; x=1368084122; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray=20Bellis=20 |Subject:=20Re:=20[homenet]=20I=20have=20a=20problem |Date:=20Wed,=209=20May=202012=2007:21:59=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20<9D946452-FB18-4D8E-B5DE-2A2F098670C5@nomi net.org.uk>|To:=20james=20woodyatt=20|CC: =20""=20 |MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20quoted- printable|Content-ID:=20|In-Reply-To:=20<08545291-3F56-4403-9B07-793E30755A6 3@apple.com>|References:=20<4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com>=0D =0A=20<0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com>=20<4FA8057C.4 080906@mtcc.com>=0D=0A=20<018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$ @com>=0D=0A=20<08545291-3F56-4403-9B07-793E30755A63@apple .com>; bh=fUnyHgYwI+/0j0OJipAPXcEuigd8bOPHwJvOO7ioT5s=; b=QQscn837dnNmS8hQ4qipZHqE0isSqTTXh6evqw/blnQL3VthoOQHJN3M oLgVbKXe3MwA5pkPZf7aKs07NNrVsX+wjnJbBnvG9HS7/F8GRPJWztp1i bjCYWjRMmUjNeNn; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,557,1330905600"; d="scan'208";a="40248699" Received: from wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.144]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 09 May 2012 08:22:00 +0100 Received: from WDS-EXC2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::7577:eaca:5241:25d4]) by wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::1593:1394:a91f:8f5f%19]) with mapi; Wed, 9 May 2012 08:22:00 +0100 From: Ray Bellis To: james woodyatt Thread-Topic: [homenet] I have a problem Thread-Index: AQHNLHZmV0Hh6uNFwU28Vt5NK9tzvZa+l+mAgAGOYwCAANjbgA== Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 07:21:59 +0000 Message-ID: <9D946452-FB18-4D8E-B5DE-2A2F098670C5@nominet.org.uk> References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> <08545291-3F56-4403-9B07-793E30755A63@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <08545291-3F56-4403-9B07-793E30755A63@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 07:22:03 -0000 On 8 May 2012, at 19:25, james woodyatt wrote: > Also, I too think this discussion is off topic for HOMENET. +1 (for now) From mike@mtcc.com Wed May 9 13:03:09 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DAAF21F846A for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 13:03:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.556 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.556 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vuFcMAFtKBVv for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 13:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8BE21F8459 for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 13:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q49K37D0004708 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 May 2012 13:03:07 -0700 Message-ID: <4FAACD7B.9070607@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 13:03:07 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ray Bellis References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> <08545291-3F56-4403-9B07-793E30755A63@apple.com> <9D946452-FB18-4D8E-B5DE-2A2F098670C5@nominet.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <9D946452-FB18-4D8E-B5DE-2A2F098670C5@nominet.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=283; t=1336593787; x=1337457787; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20I=20have=20a=20problem |Sender:=20 |To:=20Ray=20Bellis=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=ObP4xRIrTQY4kEb42tXN1QM3X5qf342ZVvPOu6YalLI=; b=In2qlF/Y2RQaZbLKGLMNft96wVTIleENHSRpJeSdQisR0ebjyPoBQf9NUb WRMUgc5tayHCkS3mvD5GXnYEfuDUyC+W/L4GZvvmJZteWUdTcxSNGgY01vQY +Nqn9H/lgKJtpTMX+DQHecQVucDhWZEowaMYLKmkZLQsVIxtJH62A=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "" , james woodyatt Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 20:03:09 -0000 On 05/09/2012 12:21 AM, Ray Bellis wrote: > On 8 May 2012, at 19:25, james woodyatt wrote: > >> Also, I too think this discussion is off topic for HOMENET. > > > +1 (for now) > > > Do you mean the BTMM tangent, or the whole discussion? Mike From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Wed May 9 13:13:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D0C21F8522 for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 13:13:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.527 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.527 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oX0v3PfRccWe for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 13:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nominet.org.uk (mx4.nominet.org.uk [213.248.199.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6785A21F851A for ; Wed, 9 May 2012 13:13:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:Received:From:To:CC:Subject: Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:Date:Message-ID:References: In-Reply-To:Accept-Language:Content-Language: X-MS-Has-Attach:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:Content-Type: Content-ID:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=pddGGSl9GmdbvbRo2f2lcup24YnyubcwSsnSVbG4uqp2ThFPyyPkq7X2 QjI4sR/eYSRfucV2MXNcuSDI/vxR1VLiru6X2eqKA+7kftLfNcaAt3tm8 7alg3ph+rBqsS16; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1336594407; x=1368130407; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray=20Bellis=20 |Subject:=20Re:=20[homenet]=20I=20have=20a=20problem |Date:=20Wed,=209=20May=202012=2020:13:24=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20<24673342-0E01-44E7-AB84-990192CD7879@nomi net.org.uk>|To:=20Michael=20Thomas=20|CC: =20"homenet@ietf.org"=20|MIME-Version: =201.0|Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20quoted-printable |Content-ID:=20<66c069cc-c087-4f34-b011-d6b88cf5682c> |In-Reply-To:=20<4FAACD7B.9070607@mtcc.com>|References: =20<4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com>=0D=0A=20<0e8401cd2bce$96e5 2770$c4af7650$@com>=20<4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com>=0D=0A =20<018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com>=0D=0A=20<0854529 1-3F56-4403-9B07-793E30755A63@apple.com>=0D=0A=20<9D94645 2-FB18-4D8E-B5DE-2A2F098670C5@nominet.org.uk>=0D=0A=20<4F AACD7B.9070607@mtcc.com>; bh=ThqBivQfczBKqMR3NRWCR11TOZM6Ikgi36HisAfUH0k=; b=wFQ6rKo9K/bNakUl1VvcPLRTJRxpGEqFNKjc+YEo7yZO2I9PbGgRXAiP QVgYr6Wtq8/af/ZWp1bcifbCwOfesorYM9Jgumq7HrPzPPLNpNRyZUik6 7fk2CC1f34qNuoQ; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,559,1330905600"; d="scan'208";a="32977995" Received: from wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.144]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 09 May 2012 21:13:25 +0100 Received: from WDS-EXC2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::7577:eaca:5241:25d4]) by wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::1593:1394:a91f:8f5f%19]) with mapi; Wed, 9 May 2012 21:13:25 +0100 From: Ray Bellis To: Michael Thomas Thread-Topic: [homenet] I have a problem Thread-Index: AQHNLHZmV0Hh6uNFwU28Vt5NK9tzvZa+l+mAgAGOYwCAANjbgIAA1KiAgAAC4AA= Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 20:13:24 +0000 Message-ID: <24673342-0E01-44E7-AB84-990192CD7879@nominet.org.uk> References: <4FA6D1AD.1050004@mtcc.com> <0e8401cd2bce$96e52770$c4af7650$@com> <4FA8057C.4080906@mtcc.com> <018301cd2c80$cd8405f0$688c11d0$@com> <08545291-3F56-4403-9B07-793E30755A63@apple.com> <9D946452-FB18-4D8E-B5DE-2A2F098670C5@nominet.org.uk> <4FAACD7B.9070607@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <4FAACD7B.9070607@mtcc.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <66c069cc-c087-4f34-b011-d6b88cf5682c> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] I have a problem X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 20:13:28 -0000 On 9 May 2012, at 21:03, Michael Thomas wrote: >=20 > Do you mean the BTMM tangent, or the whole discussion? >=20 IMHO, the whole discussion, although I didn't get a chance to discuss with = my co-chair yet. We have enough on our plate getting the initial homenet architecture define= d. This topic might be included in future rechartering, though. Ray