From C.Grundemann@cablelabs.com Fri Mar 1 12:36:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A2D21E809E for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 12:36:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eo-Y4mGVp6kS for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 12:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F0821E8053 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 12:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r21KaOLv005551; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 13:36:24 -0700 Received: from exchange.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.19) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Fri, 01 Mar 2013 13:36:24 -0700 (MST) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) Received: from EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee]) by EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee%11]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Fri, 1 Mar 2013 13:36:24 -0700 From: Chris Grundemann To: Erik Kline Thread-Topic: [homenet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHODFoiLVyBbAhOH0m+F6+nyCnoqZiDKyKAgAjOgwCABWaFAA== Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 20:36:23 +0000 Message-ID: <43238C9F8B23DA44B42A78D0129283E017FDD901@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [10.5.0.27] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <53C317525BAAD440BDE2689FA6DE147F@cablelabs.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Approved: ondar Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , "draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-00.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 20:36:33 -0000 VmVyeSBnb29kIHBvaW50IEVyaWssIHRoYW5rIHlvdS4gV2Ugd2lsbCBjZXJ0YWlubHkgdGFrZSB0 aGF0IGludG8NCmNvbnNpZGVyYXRpb24gZ29pbmcgZm9yd2FyZC4gVGhpcyBpcyBhbHNvIHdoeSB3 ZSBhcmUgcHJvcG9zaW5nIGEgbWl4IG9mDQp0d28gdG8gdGhyZWUgQ0VSL0lTUCBFZGdlIGRldGVy bWluaW5nIGNoYXJhY3RlcmlzdGljcyAoZS5nLiBJbmNsdWRpbmcgdGhlDQpDRVJfSUQgb3B0aW9u IGFzIHdlbGwgYXMgdGhlIC80OCBwcmVmaXggY2hlY2ssIGV0Yy4pLg0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQp+Q2hy aXMNCg0KDQpPbiAyLzI1LzEzIDg6MDggUE0sICJFcmlrIEtsaW5lIiA8ZWtAZ29vZ2xlLmNvbT4g d3JvdGU6DQoNCj5XUlQgdG8gU2VjdGlvbiA0LjEsIEkgdGhpbmsgdGhlICIvNDggY2hlY2siIG1h eSBub3QgYmUgYSBnb29kIGlkZWEuDQo+SXQgbWF5IHdvcmsgZm9yIC95b3VyLyBkZXBsb3ltZW50 IG1vZGVscywgYnV0IGl0IGRvZXNuJ3QgbmVjZXNzYXJpbHkNCj53b3JrIGZvciBhbGwuICBGdXJ0 aGVybW9yZSwgaWYgdGhpcyB3ZXJlIHdpZGVseSBhZG9wdGVkIGl0IHdvdWxkDQo+ZWZmZWN0aXZl bHkgZW5mb3JjZSB0aGF0IGRlcGxveW1lbnQgbW9kZWwgYWxsIHByb3ZpZGVycywgbmVlZGxlc3Ns eSBJDQo+dGhpbmsuDQo+DQo+Q29uc2lkZXIgYSBkZXBsb3ltZW50IG1vZGVsIHRoYXQgSSBiZWxp ZXZlIEkgZmlyc3QgaGVhcmQgZnJvbSBMb3JlbnpvOg0KPmEgY3VzdG9tZXIgaXMgYWxsb2NhdGVk IGEgcHJlZml4IEFORCB0aGUgInplcm8tbnVtYmVyZWQiIC82NCBmcm9tIHRoYXQNCj5wcmVmaXgg aXMgYWR2ZXJ0aXNlZCBpbiB0aGUgUkEgdG93YXJkIHRoZSBjdXN0b21lcnMgaG9tZSBnYXRld2F5 Lg0KPihSZWFsbHkgYW55IDw2NCBjdXN0b21lciBwcmVmaXggYW5kIGFueSBzaW5nbGUgLzY0IHdv dWxkIHdvcmssIGxpa2UNCj50aGUgImFsbCBvbmVzIiAvNjQtLWl0IGRvZXNuJ3QgcGFydGljdWxh cmx5IG1hdHRlci4pICBJJ20gbm90IGF3YXJlIG9mDQo+YW55dGhpbmcgdGhhdCB0ZWNobmljYWxs eSBwcmVjbHVkZXMgdGhpcyBub3IgZG8gSSB0aGluayB3ZSBzaG91bGQgbW92ZQ0KPnRvIHByZWNs dWRlIGl0IG5vdy4NCj4NCj4oTm90ZTogdGhlcmUgbWF5IGJlIHNvbWUgaG9tZSBnYXRld2F5cyB0 aGF0IGFyZSBub3QgYmUgc21hcnQgZW5vdWdoIHRvDQo+cmVjb2duaXplIHRoYXQgb25lIG9mIHRo ZSBwcmVmaXhlcyBkZWxlZ2F0ZWQgdG8gaXQgaXMgaW4gdXNlIGFscmVhZHkNCj5vbiBvbmUgb2Yg aXRzIGludGVyZmFjZXMgKGUuZy4gV0FOKSwgYnV0IGhvbWVuZXQgY2FuIHJlcXVpcmUgc3VjaA0K PmludGVsbGlnZW5jZS4pDQo+DQo+U28sIHlvdXIgdGV4dCBjb3VsZCB0cnkgdG8gcmVjb2duaXpl IHRoYXQgSUYgdGhlcmUgaXMgb25seSBvbmUNCj5hbGxvY2F0ZWQgcHJlZml4IGluIHRoZSBob21l ICYmIElGIGFuIGludGVyZmFjZSBpcyBub3QgbnVtYmVyIGZyb20NCj50aGF0IHByZWZpeCBUSEVO IGl0IG11c3QgYmUgYW4gZWRnZS4gIFRoYXQncyBmaW5lLiAgQnV0IGJlaW5nIG51bWJlcmVkDQo+ ZnJvbSB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIGFsbG9jYXRlZCBwcmVmaXggZG9lcyBub3QgbmVjZXNzYXJpbHkgbWVh biB0aGF0IGl0J3MNCj5hbiBpbnRlcmlvciByb3V0ZXIuDQoNCg== From ek@google.com Sun Mar 3 16:23:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1451321F8899 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:23:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hrWqAWqslU4l for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-f51.google.com (mail-oa0-f51.google.com [209.85.219.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D6121F8896 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id h2so8393324oag.10 for ; Sun, 03 Mar 2013 16:23:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Bjo6rVz+SqCLpfE7fa76AEEpwbPXDUw1oapW8UKt9nI=; b=nr8nFBwOlV1eFHGHCPxuhTTIbJ6VRCK420xCdeoLku2e227gk4Nw75ff/IF9cGTxBk eNr4wHnEviGarAe6ktPJX7yQ7fsazUTGhDSBkRwBoTkj1Xk531ZSXpDhMVjNcR/rnFfi ey1Zocmo4zHHpRJE/nnLroiSYiWjpnSbSz1OE/IT2dGWA0NJbecZlea3un5GDiFQOAXq 4+MhN5wv2dgJg/xlBQ52MMwR8jYwHUjABRuCU9afR30G2FSiOHYQtJgw4worc0eBg8BG wkS2JlWYHkeK8EC2DTir3yoAjvvfFjarMCVpQey42whFnS2Ms8WYUA4abd71FFmqhZyG xt4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=Bjo6rVz+SqCLpfE7fa76AEEpwbPXDUw1oapW8UKt9nI=; b=mx9FhNVtJ7DGjvM5tN3eHQyfE2EhCc9MjlEQVq2pVE5KmvWZJy0JNVmqtiAL8oFwJM NhCN4yVcIMm7eQPfNKK8GVu1uEEwV8lj+sGo1ufp7JdyS+hfHT7+9vJVdoOURtL9Wtoy uptSOp7zR79Q2rZ/oz1wHKlP05ODK2MA93MGYVTNKvGeRq2fM2lcufAP5LaMT4NGYDl2 +T1Z5FzKuylF4IrL3ckVim/lI4RJ1c/kpcngHf9tLzkXrzUWD6gX2RKE9YudQZAS9X5F fOWGnxTSNrOK86ChYt27w4WZc6jQI4C4HHW/KKfB5SU55vbL3Y5f+l2qRWazj7H+/w3K kriA== X-Received: by 10.60.32.113 with SMTP id h17mr14076894oei.54.1362356635014; Sun, 03 Mar 2013 16:23:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.50.227 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:23:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <43238C9F8B23DA44B42A78D0129283E017FDD901@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> References: <43238C9F8B23DA44B42A78D0129283E017FDD901@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> From: Erik Kline Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 09:23:34 +0900 Message-ID: To: Chris Grundemann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl9/PYLUTsixmFEI/GClZjc+bt5+UdNVWlIcMic6yyiCEXB0+kgo5ysjZ9889ObrLVH7R3FWe271e34nuUAnGt/WU69tr87hyh8PqETWuuiNVBNeDkVnqbOakcRcADoE4s19zt4cKh6RPx3vSL4nhciCJ9voAvFYBO7gPEwnac2qjydYyXRfIIzWsTw4w/1K41zoSx2 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , "draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-00.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 00:23:59 -0000 > Very good point Erik, thank you. We will certainly take that into > consideration going forward. This is also why we are proposing a mix of > two to three CER/ISP Edge determining characteristics (e.g. Including the > CER_ID option as well as the /48 prefix check, etc.). Yeah, well about that: I don't see any discussion of the security of this CER_ID option. If a hipnet device were operating in an environment in which such a thing could be spoofed then it would be trivial to punch open a hipnet network. Furthermore, it will be bad press when someone inevitably publishes an article documenting that your ISP can punch open your hipnet network if they so choose just by publishing a CER_ID to you. Really bad press. Maybe this is discussed in the CER_ID doc and you intended to pull its security considerations in by transitive closure, I don't know. From shtsuchi@cisco.com Sun Mar 3 22:27:46 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32B821F853C for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 22:27:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sAC8tSR9ud9T for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 22:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgl-iport-1.cisco.com (bgl-iport-1.cisco.com [72.163.197.25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F9B21F856E for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 22:27:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2717; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1362378461; x=1363588061; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: content-transfer-encoding; bh=VdrexmkidVOI/ZDg9ZsUIFWoGUtm1DSviAwWQxQDUqs=; b=bqQiqpUwOcilN7o8qCvM7jZvQr2KxZY6qQ5I047qvYkIUG7K8CcyGkUv GVjYCgj68oFKXzcI8dPRRwZNSeQpfovYjoDvOlyGBrDpxHI+6S1Pm+JEL 4jJEtoq53J/Ruo2F3wgq04NDfKpGO0cMG/hGE7/EqoaAfFqFHyLRmpvi2 c=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,777,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="26651516" Received: from vla196-nat.cisco.com (HELO bgl-core-4.cisco.com) ([72.163.197.24]) by bgl-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Mar 2013 06:27:34 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-141-41-180.cisco.com (dhcp-10-141-41-180.cisco.com [10.141.41.180]) by bgl-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r246RYBt010338; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 06:27:34 GMT Message-ID: <51343ED5.70509@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 15:27:33 +0900 From: Shishio Tsuchiya User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130216 Thunderbird/17.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: shtsuchi@cisco.com Subject: [homenet] DHCP-pd relay/proxy? function X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 06:27:46 -0000 I found NTT/KDDI home gateway has this function. IPv6 customer Edge router act as DHCP-pd requesting router. And if it recieved dhcp-pd prefix , it also act as delegating router for IPv6 interia router. The pool would be configured from delegated prefix automatically. Should we make the draft or presentation which explains this feature as informational? or is this well known feature? +-------+-------+ \ | Service | \ | Provider | | Service | Router | | Provider +-------+-------+ | network | / | Customer / | Internet connection | +------+--------+ \ | IPv6 | \ | Customer Edge | \ | Router | | +----+-+---+----+ | Network A | | | Network B(E) | ----+-------------+----+ | +---+-------------+------+ | | | | | | | | +----+-----+ +-----+----+ | +----+-----+ +-----+----+ | | |IPv6 Host | |IPv6 Host | | | IPv6 Host| |IPv6 Host | | | | H1 | | H2 | | | H3 | | H4 | | | +----------+ +----------+ | +----------+ +----------+ | | | | | | | Link F | ---+------+------+-----+ | | | Network E(B) | +------+--------+ | | End-User | IPv6 | | | networks | Interior +------+ | | Router | | +---+-------+-+-+ | Network C | | Network D | ----+-------------+---+ +---+-------------+--- | | | | | | +----+-----+ +-----+----+ +----+-----+ +-----+----+ | |IPv6 Host | |IPv6 Host | | IPv6 Host| |IPv6 Host | | | H5 | | H6 | | H7 | | H8 | / +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ / Regards, -Shishio From rdroms.ietf@gmail.com Sun Mar 3 22:56:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1102721F85AC for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 22:56:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.819, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kHlThkvvTSbX for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 22:56:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-f48.google.com (mail-qa0-f48.google.com [209.85.216.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9AC21F859B for ; Sun, 3 Mar 2013 22:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qa0-f48.google.com with SMTP id j8so964447qah.14 for ; Sun, 03 Mar 2013 22:56:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from :subject:date:to; bh=eQnOatsVaRP0ovvkP1+Bfzk0Fn/8h9V9BYlhIPFWrYM=; b=sCYJtCQfRzukPijCPodUMd4QcVEYJC5SUdTBT70vBbjUQs1oUAS3bRasHwnXvqW8OE knaF6NTPYQ2QOaIh4oOaJA/1tvQL7tikqWzE4IzL2+9FUJdRBMoLOfntfSS67bmJK9l5 sBBgqLEsXfzcwtoAf1M7k+XjIRDUdWetsfOZDTcnvQEEl/D1v/sHdapS6fcxxt+DWqYz kdAZjjjKY+Qa9vJ0VDXOxG61oI0Es4F+2wNb2v0KEWvRG4xS0BiNeMTP0XMNhVe7b3yF uIM2dqAMR9BIeVw3JVtet/HQuMUykIszZ6v9jSAHGjY1KnBurKi0g1iDswa6JobCMbKg t62g== X-Received: by 10.224.201.201 with SMTP id fb9mr32749670qab.54.1362380209300; Sun, 03 Mar 2013 22:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.123] (c-24-62-110-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.62.110.75]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id he6sm11409579qab.1.2013.03.03.22.56.47 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 03 Mar 2013 22:56:48 -0800 (PST) References: <51343ED5.70509@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <51343ED5.70509@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) From: Ralph Droms Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 01:57:41 -0500 To: Shishio Tsuchiya Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , "shtsuchi@cisco.com" Subject: Re: [homenet] DHCP-pd relay/proxy? function X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 06:56:51 -0000 How does this PD function compare with draft-baker-homenet-prefix-assignment= ? It would be interesting to know the details and experience with the runn= ing code. - Ralph On Mar 4, 2013, at 1:27 AM, Shishio Tsuchiya wrote: > I found NTT/KDDI home gateway has this function. > IPv6 customer Edge router act as DHCP-pd requesting router. > And if it recieved dhcp-pd prefix , it also act as delegating router for I= Pv6 interia router. > The pool would be configured from delegated prefix automatically. >=20 > Should we make the draft or presentation which explains this feature as i= nformational? > or is this well known feature? >=20 >=20 > +-------+-------+ \ > | Service | \ > | Provider | | Service > | Router | | Provider > +-------+-------+ | network > | / > | Customer / > | Internet connection > | > +------+--------+ \ > | IPv6 | \ > | Customer Edge | \ > | Router | | > +----+-+---+----+ | > Network A | | | Network B(E) | > ----+-------------+----+ | +---+-------------+------+ | > | | | | | | | > +----+-----+ +-----+----+ | +----+-----+ +-----+----+ | | > |IPv6 Host | |IPv6 Host | | | IPv6 Host| |IPv6 Host | | | > | H1 | | H2 | | | H3 | | H4 | | | > +----------+ +----------+ | +----------+ +----------+ | | > | | | | | > Link F | ---+------+------+-----+ | > | | Network E(B) | > +------+--------+ | | End-User > | IPv6 | | | networks > | Interior +------+ | > | Router | | > +---+-------+-+-+ | > Network C | | Network D | > ----+-------------+---+ +---+-------------+--- | > | | | | | > +----+-----+ +-----+----+ +----+-----+ +-----+----+ | > |IPv6 Host | |IPv6 Host | | IPv6 Host| |IPv6 Host | | > | H5 | | H6 | | H7 | | H8 | / > +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ / >=20 >=20 > Regards, > -Shishio > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From teco@inf-net.nl Mon Mar 4 00:09:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2359721F8750 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 00:09:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.717 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.717 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N6FSmXNg5KBd for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 00:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-x230.google.com (mail-we0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5679221F8717 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 00:09:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-we0-f176.google.com with SMTP id s43so4150962wey.7 for ; Mon, 04 Mar 2013 00:09:32 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=oil+aCr7NOjid4H5hjif1585qvex3GEPtfwiIuovqmM=; b=ofrSKq4ig1znzxjj/fnDwiUElvLUE+N2oaBv23KsrZkNwvcolA8d//McyJNVe+jpiC sizHEkiWILU0HlQm1QgQGG0S/sY4Ov6y14ft3EHRo46qiPRc5IDbaGdAIeBUW4KU/6ed f54M5ljgsaIUM9cQVdjtnjm/a6vhtb2iFQambg1zl1S2a//YF7dZ/RYmE3o/STCmDMg7 LtT/G55K3J04zzymF3vgRnxXWCVzBM/vADtPlMjqQtEeKeGU6eoMdQXRpT2dkM1leJGb 8uNy5MaJCjp277RRkcOSPplO2IYSe+5a/3dUlr6w8LvUts1ArtHB2KcYUi2ncNbP+/WL cMQg== X-Received: by 10.180.79.227 with SMTP id m3mr9687044wix.12.1362384572528; Mon, 04 Mar 2013 00:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.175.173.95] (524A14A4.cm-4-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl. [82.74.20.164]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bj9sm12487572wib.4.2013.03.04.00.09.31 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Mar 2013 00:09:31 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 09:09:30 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> To: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnbTZk7kFPKLJy28MMuWZdAil+FVLl15aYfEfu/X9SBli6oJMN9xscbGlNnGb6IKzFRy2Ur Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 08:09:35 -0000 Reading the homenet-arch, I can't find how multi-addressed hosts are = guided to prefer one address over another. I think such facility is = beneficial in multi-homed homenets. Teco Op 12 feb. 2013, om 16:00 heeft Ray Bellis het volgende geschreven: > This email marks the commencement of Working Group Last Call for = draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07. >=20 > The WGLC will end on Monday March 4th. >=20 > Ray and Mark. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From ot@cisco.com Mon Mar 4 00:51:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A930C21F88ED for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 00:51:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uUtqSR3F7jYK for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 00:51:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB0E21F88EE for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 00:51:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=636; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1362387070; x=1363596670; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=0pAJ8lOM9COvFKrnASaAc486y6s/l5N9YTPgAm3qBrw=; b=gdbZ1qxo7DrWhjDRVtes26G8OlYr1uTi21Btf5lXh+qDS7zedtvnQppY QDJUaiLjF8jOjz+Oc8+59QePGk+WTIElc39WQl8MutSK19j5RnA00e8Hs 4yCBsg7hohBDeCoUJHhifHYuBdbKL3V+h8ehbcEZiyNqeUrBUUzFbZ1ZY A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EALteNFGQ/khM/2dsb2JhbABFwkx+FnOCHwEBAQMBHR0/BQsLEjRJDgYuh3IGxz2OWjMHgl9hA5ZGkGyDCQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,778,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="151145758" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Mar 2013 08:51:09 +0000 Received: from dhcp-lys01-vla250-10-147-112-117.cisco.com (dhcp-lys01-vla250-10-147-112-117.cisco.com [10.147.112.117]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r248p8Mh021131 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Mar 2013 08:51:08 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 09:51:08 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9B416DC5-805B-4996-B733-B09158AE1E7C@cisco.com> References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> To: Teco Boot X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 08:51:34 -0000 Teco, > Reading the homenet-arch, I can't find how multi-addressed hosts are = guided to prefer one address over another. I think such facility is = beneficial in multi-homed homenets. the intention is to propagate the SAS/DAS policy given with = draft-ietf-6man-addr-select-opt, and more specific routes learn on the border, combined with source = address dependent forwarding. as well as rule 5.5 of 6724. that's in solution space though. there is already a reference to the = multihoming-without-ipv6nat document. do you have ideas of anything else we should add to the architecture = document? cheers, Ole= From teco@inf-net.nl Mon Mar 4 03:56:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2920E21F86DE for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 03:56:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zbdi02bXvt22 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 03:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f45.google.com (mail-ee0-f45.google.com [74.125.83.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9D1921F86B6 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 03:56:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f45.google.com with SMTP id b57so3734845eek.4 for ; Mon, 04 Mar 2013 03:56:08 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=lMD3CLMamMxlgqtz1JMKwTaMXjMOHUbxrxAJDwwUQYs=; b=QLUeAf1aYvLeSGh4HbbkZRs7N+myiE5kTTdFbXv35jXWktgzYdI+6XyanT1faC31s3 lM3hFaTWKrI7stOJfxX+Dxa3x697bi8XNvEBohIUtrvf6Ef4nYBBeC/lhBZwAFDdUDVt u0EAiyTe0MCVx5qGBKic7jFP6u7KqWanmpzBKxFWwo4ie5yZLUUkRXM6NHQqI6R4WHnt N6Nq83zHDCnogyYmpA4x1XPW04tJ2r+O1ipcCTqKDGjLdZbqOsYnNMRNSrcvyBorldMN XWYcOk9v6nzOOqwiMIzbFnBmCC1nFGtTXXNF+yGrhHgb8w4D8Q37Sunzzsj1if8DJzvk Bk8w== X-Received: by 10.14.183.198 with SMTP id q46mr24611222eem.1.1362398168037; Mon, 04 Mar 2013 03:56:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.87.23.18] ([88.128.80.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q5sm31657442eep.11.2013.03.04.03.56.05 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Mar 2013 03:56:07 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: <9B416DC5-805B-4996-B733-B09158AE1E7C@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 12:56:01 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <9B416DC5-805B-4996-B733-B09158AE1E7C@cisco.com> To: Ole Troan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm/XgV7blwhDaMYIdKkChbF5wKqO5Q1219tsy77LPatyI8dlXyFtUcS7GOkmjS69Y0TqPQw Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:56:11 -0000 Op 4 mrt. 2013, om 09:51 heeft Ole Troan het volgende = geschreven: > Teco, >=20 >> Reading the homenet-arch, I can't find how multi-addressed hosts are = guided to prefer one address over another. I think such facility is = beneficial in multi-homed homenets. >=20 > the intention is to propagate the SAS/DAS policy given with = draft-ietf-6man-addr-select-opt, > and more specific routes learn on the border, combined with source = address dependent forwarding. > as well as rule 5.5 of 6724. This will work when every access router is a DHCP server, right? What if = no DHCP or DHCP-relay? Do we generate this option out of routing = information? Or some other zero-config magic? >=20 > that's in solution space though. there is already a reference to the = multihoming-without-ipv6nat document. >=20 > do you have ideas of anything else we should add to the architecture = document? Maybe it is my reservations on the current suggested solutions. I don't = understand why we don't make use of ND. Then, access routers can provide = whatever they wish, from whatever source and the host can ignore or take = some benefits. Teco >=20 > cheers, > Ole From fujiwara@wide.ad.jp Mon Mar 4 04:04:01 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 263C221F8996 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 04:04:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hz24a0TV1QCb for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 04:04:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sh.wide.ad.jp (sh.wide.ad.jp [IPv6:2001:200:0:1001::6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B007421F8917 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 04:04:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (i114-185-15-139.s41.a013.ap.plala.or.jp [114.185.15.139]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by mail.wide.ad.jp (8.14.1+3.5Wbeta/8.14.1/smtpfeed 1.21) with ESMTP id r24C3unQ020425; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 21:03:58 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 21:03:55 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20130304.210355.1770591644997606743.fujiwara@wide.ad.jp> To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk From: Kazunori Fujiwara In-Reply-To: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.3.51 on Emacs 24.2 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 12:04:01 -0000 last call comment to draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 * Site local address only segments. Some sensors do not need global unicast addresses. In many cases, they need to connect their controller only. If this type of segments are useful, please add this in Section 2.1 as "site only network". (filtering also support this type of network) # homenet may be mix of GUA only, SLA only, GUA+SLA. * Section 3.1.2 Minimize changes to hosts and routers In my opinion, changes to routers are easier than changes to hosts. I prefer adding such line: If we need some changes for routers or hosts, choose changes of routers rather than changes of hosts. * Service Discovery Please add references to Service Discovery. Are current Service Discoveries implemented as Bonjour, UPnP or Service Location Protocol ? Regards, -- Kazunori Fujiwara, JPRS/WIDE, fujiwara@jprs.co.jp/fujiwara@wide.ad.jp From ot@cisco.com Mon Mar 4 04:04:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C536421F8A18 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 04:04:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uQ5m+r08YkEc for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 04:04:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC54F21F89DA for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 04:04:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1687; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1362398647; x=1363608247; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=0AfQnz/kysuTDH2QPQLASPXCQVXWkRNWFNEl27s6ZZM=; b=RpjpfxZsZC/7xlqmA/hxxO9idgv+3xkYtGzVnSljvxGHyBJX4kSgnfn6 5mn5mVxkrOefDQbciujV9YHsnT5K8IBA9pjoDQCE+BcvCZKRXZeg8bUFH hLEC2iMPDx5d1ikOwiUCI/ynW3N3HcKfcM8Q/Tuqf8HTMPtWwLj972Kx6 E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAFGNNFGQ/khM/2dsb2JhbABFwk2BABZzgh8BAQEDAR0dPxALEjRJDgYuh3IGxxGOWjMHgl9hA5ZGkGyDCQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,778,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="151157061" Received: from ams-core-3.cisco.com ([144.254.72.76]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Mar 2013 12:04:06 +0000 Received: from dhcp-lys01-vla250-10-147-112-117.cisco.com (dhcp-lys01-vla250-10-147-112-117.cisco.com [10.147.112.117]) by ams-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r24C46uX024794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Mar 2013 12:04:06 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 13:04:05 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <38688CA2-D731-44C2-A3B1-7077D66B28CC@cisco.com> References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <9B416DC5-805B-4996-B733-B09158AE1E7C@cisco.com> To: Teco Boot X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 12:04:08 -0000 Teco, >>> Reading the homenet-arch, I can't find how multi-addressed hosts are = guided to prefer one address over another. I think such facility is = beneficial in multi-homed homenets. >>=20 >> the intention is to propagate the SAS/DAS policy given with = draft-ietf-6man-addr-select-opt, >> and more specific routes learn on the border, combined with source = address dependent forwarding. >> as well as rule 5.5 of 6724. > This will work when every access router is a DHCP server, right? What = if no DHCP or DHCP-relay? Do we generate this option out of routing = information? Or some other zero-config magic? I don't think there is any intention of creating SAS/DAS policy on the = fly. I was only thinking of passing that along to hosts. the homenet will using SADR ensure that BCP38 rules are satisfied. = nothing more. I'm not sure what you mean by the DHCP question. DHCP has an option to = pass SAS/DAS policy to hosts. I'm not suggesting DHCP is used to = propagate that information around between routers in the home net. >> that's in solution space though. there is already a reference to the = multihoming-without-ipv6nat document. >>=20 >> do you have ideas of anything else we should add to the architecture = document? > Maybe it is my reservations on the current suggested solutions. I = don't understand why we don't make use of ND. Then, access routers can = provide whatever they wish, from whatever source and the host can ignore = or take some benefits. again I don't quite understand what you mean. which protocol is used to = convey network information to the hosts doesn't much matter in my = view... cheers, Ole= From mellon@fugue.com Mon Mar 4 05:40:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A9A21F8873 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 05:40:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YkfA1OFJXwAG for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 05:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB8B21F8718 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 05:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.30.42.67] (c-174-62-147-182.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [174.62.147.182]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 33B1D2380625; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 08:40:41 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <51343ED5.70509@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 08:40:41 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8D01C71F-943F-47DC-A5C5-148D3E96DBDB@fugue.com> References: <51343ED5.70509@cisco.com> To: Shishio Tsuchiya X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] DHCP-pd relay/proxy? function X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 13:40:47 -0000 On Mar 4, 2013, at 1:27 AM, Shishio Tsuchiya wrote: > Should we make the draft or presentation which explains this feature = as informational? > or is this well known feature? This is a well-known feature. There's been some debate as to whether = this is the right way to solve the problem for a homenet, but it's = something we've discussed in the past. From mellon@fugue.com Mon Mar 4 05:41:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7020621F8999 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 05:41:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 81d9pcPwawZz for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 05:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA00121F8873 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 05:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.30.42.67] (c-174-62-147-182.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [174.62.147.182]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 134D12380625; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 08:41:35 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 08:41:35 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6F590421-DC0E-4D7F-9413-8BD9B9C0AB95@fugue.com> References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> To: Teco Boot X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 13:41:37 -0000 On Mar 4, 2013, at 3:09 AM, Teco Boot wrote: > Reading the homenet-arch, I can't find how multi-addressed hosts are = guided to prefer one address over another. I think such facility is = beneficial in multi-homed homenets. On what basis would such guidance be offered? From shtsuchi@cisco.com Mon Mar 4 06:25:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE5521F8A33 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 06:25:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Emeu7CD+kqKU for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 06:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from bgl-iport-1.cisco.com (bgl-iport-1.cisco.com [72.163.197.25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7961321F8A42 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 06:25:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=906; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1362407129; x=1363616729; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zUfJMZ4Cnx4WRXvi9jZaiGacr/8+Wco0ca4h19OkE7w=; b=lSWb39A6R5MRYIoAXIpOV1rAp/jKP3tOZZOLA27VKE0USLzWWSATC+w8 1SaoMYH5dewyC99mCSF2XcydKJg9g9ArleT8pjRE9csv6EYUYxe4AHM8R F+PwgTsaNG/mxd7x/RiNzXNK0bP15jhcjOG4jfL+Xodc1Po5Q5e6Ue9u5 4=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,779,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="26683523" Received: from vla196-nat.cisco.com (HELO bgl-core-2.cisco.com) ([72.163.197.24]) by bgl-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Mar 2013 14:25:20 +0000 Received: from tky-shtsuchi-8913.cisco.com (tky-shtsuchi-8913.cisco.com [10.71.44.84]) by bgl-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r24EPJcH002132; Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:25:20 GMT Message-ID: <5134AECE.1010100@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 23:25:18 +0900 From: Shishio Tsuchiya User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130216 Thunderbird/17.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <51343ED5.70509@cisco.com> <8D01C71F-943F-47DC-A5C5-148D3E96DBDB@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <8D01C71F-943F-47DC-A5C5-148D3E96DBDB@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: shtsuchi@cisco.com Subject: Re: [homenet] DHCP-pd relay/proxy? function X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 14:25:30 -0000 Ted Thank you for reply. I found it. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/homenet/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/WikiStart/homenet-prefixassignment.pdf Hierarchical DHCP Prefix Delegation RFC3633 + draft-chakrabarti-homenet-prefix-alloc-00 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chakrabarti-homenet-prefix-alloc-00 Regards, -Shishio (2013/03/04 22:40), Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 4, 2013, at 1:27 AM, Shishio Tsuchiya wrote: >> Should we make the draft or presentation which explains this feature as informational? >> or is this well known feature? > > This is a well-known feature. There's been some debate as to whether this is the right way to solve the problem for a homenet, but it's something we've discussed in the past. > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > From mark@townsley.net Tue Mar 5 04:22:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF42A21F8937 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 04:22:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zej73NQ2EIJ2 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 04:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f45.google.com (mail-ee0-f45.google.com [74.125.83.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B1521F892F for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 04:22:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f45.google.com with SMTP id b57so4534740eek.4 for ; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 04:22:00 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=j0Ua7siIFVeLRsyGYzLRD8MPho4k+OlxqwPQ7LGqgA8=; b=QhVwqFoN4TV9KyXUEWEij2jIPrnLvQEJQBWk4R5ziL3Dvsox7lwnyAW2BDqQiu3YAw ZACXPLKMrdH6PG/ayunHitf88iqqvS9X9fotY84MJD0miikAFuCxqhSu0aLIauxbwHy2 31Ka1jClTZI0KdNWkfV4aPoaFYjw9alBeeCNWiXLz3270vct44IEa7JuORsieS4rzsZz DXoU3bvWeFH+2ZQbUG9aR+9bQT+FxgfLr4nFWiDZtwGtPd1bT7g7BJtPKpeYWbLcZ0S+ mn63i6oVMqs6RtWa6Ygfx5/YX4I5jxmImHEWTbZ53bxReFELPn1p4RB8EEvqllXy9o4p 7anQ== X-Received: by 10.14.183.198 with SMTP id q46mr36343375eem.1.1362486120667; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 04:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-townsley-8913.cisco.com (64-103-25-233.cisco.com. [64.103.25.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q42sm37124913eem.14.2013.03.05.04.21.57 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Mar 2013 04:21:57 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mark Townsley In-Reply-To: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE7310575C86@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 13:21:56 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <22D4A924-7333-423F-85AA-AD0247446947@townsley.net> References: <5126E021.6020103@mtcc.com> <81675C1D-FFA8-452D-B8BD-147533074F13@fugue.com> <51278850.5080102@mtcc.com> <7C9831DB-E0DC-43E1-AEDC-BA2DA1D8A6A4@fugue.com> <512C589E.9040104@si6networks.com> <512C938C.4080702@gmail.com> <512C96CF.5090906@si6networks.com> <512CC4FD.2020804@si6networks.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE7310575C86@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnWgwrA0YUYuBbqmNH+vMxTXbodTIuYSyggM8aa+dFwgprqvMVTswUVV4ACjeoWY4sGiD64 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] NPTv6-only home networks X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 12:22:10 -0000 >=20 > On 26 Feb 2013, at 14:21, Fernando Gont wrote: >=20 >> Stupid question: >> Can we enforce requirements on host implementations as a result of >> homenet? What I have referred to in our meetings as the Thaler Doctrine (TM), is = that if we end up with a phased approach in homenet, the demarcation = would be exactly along these lines. e.g., Phase 1 would do the best we = can while requiring zero changes to hosts, while Phase 2 does some = things even better than Phase 1, but requires host changes to support.=20= - Mark= From C.Grundemann@cablelabs.com Tue Mar 5 09:21:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB6D21F8884 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:21:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kg9GXRqcL5la for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:21:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E7CA21F8952 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:21:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r25HLeJR013007; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 10:21:40 -0700 Received: from exchange.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.19) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Tue, 05 Mar 2013 10:21:40 -0700 (MST) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) Received: from EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee]) by EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee%11]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 10:21:39 -0700 From: Chris Grundemann To: Erik Kline Thread-Topic: [homenet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHODFoiLVyBbAhOH0m+F6+nyCnoqZiDKyKAgAjOgwCABWaFAIAD2X0AgAI5dIA= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 17:21:39 +0000 Message-ID: <43238C9F8B23DA44B42A78D0129283E017FE463C@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [10.5.0.27] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Approved: ondar Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , "draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-00.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:21:45 -0000 T24gMy8zLzEzIDU6MjMgUE0sICJFcmlrIEtsaW5lIiA8ZWtAZ29vZ2xlLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoN Cj4+IFZlcnkgZ29vZCBwb2ludCBFcmlrLCB0aGFuayB5b3UuIFdlIHdpbGwgY2VydGFpbmx5IHRh a2UgdGhhdCBpbnRvDQo+PiBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9uIGdvaW5nIGZvcndhcmQuIFRoaXMgaXMgYWxz byB3aHkgd2UgYXJlIHByb3Bvc2luZyBhIG1peCBvZg0KPj4gdHdvIHRvIHRocmVlIENFUi9JU1Ag RWRnZSBkZXRlcm1pbmluZyBjaGFyYWN0ZXJpc3RpY3MgKGUuZy4gSW5jbHVkaW5nDQo+PnRoZQ0K Pj4gQ0VSX0lEIG9wdGlvbiBhcyB3ZWxsIGFzIHRoZSAvNDggcHJlZml4IGNoZWNrLCBldGMuKS4N Cj4NCj5ZZWFoLCB3ZWxsIGFib3V0IHRoYXQ6IEkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIGFueSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9m IHRoZSBzZWN1cml0eSBvZg0KPnRoaXMgQ0VSX0lEIG9wdGlvbi4gIElmIGEgaGlwbmV0IGRldmlj ZSB3ZXJlIG9wZXJhdGluZyBpbiBhbg0KPmVudmlyb25tZW50IGluIHdoaWNoIHN1Y2ggYSB0aGlu ZyBjb3VsZCBiZSBzcG9vZmVkIHRoZW4gaXQgd291bGQgYmUNCj50cml2aWFsIHRvIHB1bmNoIG9w ZW4gYSBoaXBuZXQgbmV0d29yay4NCj4NCj5GdXJ0aGVybW9yZSwgaXQgd2lsbCBiZSBiYWQgcHJl c3Mgd2hlbiBzb21lb25lIGluZXZpdGFibHkgcHVibGlzaGVzIGFuDQo+YXJ0aWNsZSBkb2N1bWVu dGluZyB0aGF0IHlvdXIgSVNQIGNhbiBwdW5jaCBvcGVuIHlvdXIgaGlwbmV0IG5ldHdvcmsNCj5p ZiB0aGV5IHNvIGNob29zZSBqdXN0IGJ5IHB1Ymxpc2hpbmcgYSBDRVJfSUQgdG8geW91LiAgUmVh bGx5IGJhZA0KPnByZXNzLg0KPg0KPk1heWJlIHRoaXMgaXMgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIGluIHRoZSBDRVJf SUQgZG9jIGFuZCB5b3UgaW50ZW5kZWQgdG8gcHVsbCBpdHMNCj5zZWN1cml0eSBjb25zaWRlcmF0 aW9ucyBpbiBieSB0cmFuc2l0aXZlIGNsb3N1cmUsIEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdy4NCg0KUmlnaHQsIHRo aXMgaXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRoYXQgd291bGQgYmUgYWRkcmVzc2VkIGluIHRoZSBDRVJfSUQgZHJh ZnQNCml0c2VsZi4gV2hpbGUgSSBkb24ndCBkb3VidCB0aGF0IHNwb29maW5nIG9yIG90aGVyIG1h bGljaW91cyBhY3Rpdml0eSBpcw0KcG9zc2libGUsIEkgYW0gbm90IHN1cmUgSSBzZWUgaG93IHRo ZSBwb3NzaWJpbGl0eSBpcyBhbnkgZ3JlYXRlciBvciBtb3JlDQpzZXZlciB0aGFuIGl0IGlzIHRv ZGF5IHdpdGggZXhpc3RpbmcgREhDUHY2IChhbmQgTkQgZm9yIHRoYXQgbWF0dGVyKQ0KbWVzc2Fn ZXMuIEFyZSB5b3Ugc2ltcGx5IHNheWluZyB0aGF0IHRoaXMgaXMgYSBwb3NzaWJpbGl0eSwgb3Ig YXJlIHlvdQ0KaW5mZXJyaW5nIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBvcHRpb24gd291bGQgaW50cm9kdWNlIGEgbW9y ZSBzZXJpb3VzIHRocmVhdD8gRWl0aGVyDQp3YXkgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIGxpa2VseSB0YWtlIHRoaXMg ZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZmYtbGlzdCBvciBvbnRvIHRoZSBESEMgbGlzdCwNCnNpbmNlIGl0IGlzIGRp cmVjdGx5IHJlbGV2YW50IHRvIHRoZSBDRVJfSUQgZHJhZnQgYW5kIG9ubHkgaW5kaXJlY3RseQ0K YXNzb2NpYXRlZCB3aXRoIHRoZSBob21lIG5ldHdvcmsgYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIG1vcmUgZ2VuZXJh bGx5Lg0KDQpUaGFua3MsDQp+Q2hyaXMNCg0K From mbehring@cisco.com Tue Mar 5 09:52:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B579D21F85CC for ; 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Thread-Index: Ac4J+Pw0eYMPjXgJRAe/w/WICK0LAQHWsymAAhwST9A= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 17:52:40 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6E45BB@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6D5EF0@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.194.22] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , "draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:52:42 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Townsley [mailto:mark@townsley.net] > Sent: 22 February 2013 18:25 > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) > Cc: homenet@ietf.org; draft-behringer-homenet-trust- > bootstrap@tools.ietf.org > Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust- > bootstrap? >=20 >=20 > On Feb 13, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >=20 > > Homenet WG, > > > > In Atlanta we presented draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap-00, > which explains (high level) how trust could be bootstrapped in a homenet > environment. > > > > The feedback we got during the meeting was mostly positive; we would > like to understand the next steps for this draft? We believe this is a us= eful > approach, and would like to have the document accepted as a WG doc at > some point. > > > > What is the next step? >=20 > Ray and I are open to more WG discussion on this given the positive > reception at the last meeting, but I'd rather see more discussion on the = list > beforehand. Where do *you* see this model fitting in? Mark, thanks for the response, and sorry for my delay; I was co-organising = an event last week and didn't have the time to follow up.=20 In the limited understanding I have (not following as closely as I should..= .) I think trust in the homenet is still an open issue. It is usually refe= rred to as "border discovery", but I think it goes beyond that.=20 There needs to be a way to accept/reject a device into a particular homenet= . You can do this with pressing buttons at the right time in the right plac= e. You can configure that manually. After that, there needs to be some reas= onably secure way for any device in the homenet to know whether another dev= ice is part of this homenet or not.=20 I think there is a need for a reasonably secure way to - identify a new device=20 - accept it onto the homenet domain or not - make that device talk to the existing devices, in a reasonably secure way= . Or, conversely, make sure that devices don't put trust in devices that sh= ouldn't be in the domain.=20 Our draft shows a way to do that in a relatively simple and secure way. I b= elieve this is a fundamental requirement in a homenet; there are other ways= to more or less achieve this goal - that needs to be discussed. But we sho= uld have the discussion.=20 Michael >=20 > - Mark >=20 > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > > homenet mailing list > > homenet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From bs7652@att.com Tue Mar 5 14:04:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 242B021F84BB for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:04:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iMylqH8T8oLP for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from nbfkord-smmo07.seg.att.com (nbfkord-smmo07.seg.att.com [209.65.160.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B91921F84B8 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown [144.160.20.146] (EHLO mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) by nbfkord-smmo07.seg.att.com(mxl_mta-6.15.0-1) over TLS secured channel with ESMTP id 0db66315.0.289919.00-310.824726.nbfkord-smmo07.seg.att.com (envelope-from ); Tue, 05 Mar 2013 22:04:01 +0000 (UTC) X-MXL-Hash: 51366bd12dc6bbc5-607a6790c7c338637d89f9a30440b9a93fc55f78 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r25M40VU020719 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 17:04:00 -0500 Received: from mlpi408.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi408.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.240]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r25M3uKe020625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 17:03:56 -0500 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUB9C.ITServices.sbc.com (gaalpa1msghub9c.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.36.89]) by mlpi408.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor) for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 22:03:41 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.36.69]) by GAALPA1MSGHUB9C.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.36.89]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 17:03:40 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 Thread-Index: Ac4Z7UKwz32x8jGQR8youP3KtCHdQQ== Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 22:03:36 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.75.62] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Spam: [F=0.2000000000; CM=0.500; S=0.200(2010122901)] X-MAIL-FROM: X-SOURCE-IP: [144.160.20.146] X-AnalysisOut: [v=2.0 cv=esNoOPVX c=1 sm=0 a=Qs8R1XBwmid1qBFB/a8mmA==:17 a] X-AnalysisOut: [=UfiCKdxgZ7kA:10 a=76H29rbzmTgA:10 a=ofMgfj31e3cA:10 a=BLc] X-AnalysisOut: [eEmwcHowA:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=zQP7CpKOAAAA:8 a=XIqpo32R] X-AnalysisOut: [AAAA:8 a=RQmrU9cd0lAA:10 a=M214Ek6WtXrCkIeYYFsA:9 a=CjuIK1] X-AnalysisOut: [q_8ugA:10 a=UjSJwirYojTDQBew:21 a=AZjKDTI0fH073CYk:21] Subject: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 22:04:02 -0000 This section of the homenet architecture draft has the following paragraph: The home network needs to be adaptable to ISP prefix allocation policies, and thus make no assumptions about the stability of the prefix received from an ISP, or the length of the prefix that may be offered. However, if only a /64 is offered by the ISP, the homenet may be severely constrained or even unable to function. As stated above, attempting to use internal subnet prefixes longer than /64 would break SLAAC, and is thus not recommended. Using ULA prefixes internally with NPTv6 at the boundary is not recommended for reasons given elsewhere. Reverting to bridging would destroy subnetting, breaks multicast if bridged onto 802.11 wireless networks and has serious limitations with regard to heterogeneous link layer technologies and LLNs. For those reasons it is recommended that DHCP-PD or OSPFv3 capable routers have the ability to issue a warning upon receipt of a /64 if required to assign further prefixes within the home network. Though some consideration needs to be given to how that should be presented to a typical home user. I agree with the first 3 sentences. However, I disagre= e with the recommendation for the case where the delegated subnet is insuff= icient to meet the needs of the home network. This paragraph recommends tha= t a DHCP-PD or OSPFv3 capable router issue a warning and recommends against= doing anything else. As a home user who currently gets a /64 (via 6rd) fro= m my ISP, I find this recommendation insufficient. I would prefer if a (int= ernal) router that is not given a /64 provided me with a "warning" that off= ered options for alternate ways to configure the router. These options migh= t include bridging, NPTv6, or even NAT66, and I would be told what I would = be giving up (what would break) if I went with any of these choices. But I = want choices from that router. Choices of "move to a different house where = you can get service from a different ISP", "give up", or "complain" are not= real choices. "Switch ISPs" is also not a choice, because there is no othe= r ISP offering service to my home that can provide the bandwidth my family = wants. And whatever someone else's reasons are for not wanting to use one o= f these configurations, those reasons may not apply to me. For example, I t= ake great pleasure in breaking end-to-end connectivity to certain devices i= nside my home network. I don't mind if I don't have subnetting. I've seen m= ulticast with Wi-Fi links work great where snooping is implemented on the l= ink. I want the choice to be mine. Barbara From marka@isc.org Tue Mar 5 14:48:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A232E11E8115 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:48:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pfGBKXNIGjRZ for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:48:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:500:60::65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912AB11E8102 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 14:48:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA76E5F9955; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 22:48:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1362523693; bh=6cxopBImWSvH3lhU1AU1wVMJlPbMY4sCr+khMtf69a4=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=eFOnyjRyOwk3PzSp3WNrMmC+JELqpfI056Zytdv17sh1YbxeC57cHmZyv/gN2PvxE POX6yB9dzhtpcgYRIPo0rgTCRUapIH9JZMUxKQ+m9mU05QFvOey50OGIPbSC/QR2gS SazurlBKuV4KC1HoQr9pmHZwpDpyWmg1k2oAeHNI= Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:14dd:329:c316:c4f3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4E32A216C40; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 22:48:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FBBA306D1A2; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:47:58 +1100 (EST) To: "STARK, BARBARA H" From: Mark Andrews References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Mar 2013 22:03:36 -0000." <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 09:47:58 +1100 Message-Id: <20130305224758.7FBBA306D1A2@drugs.dv.isc.org> Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 22:48:15 -0000 In message <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices .sbc.com>, "STARK, BARBARA H" writes: > This section of the homenet architecture draft has the following paragraph: > > The home network needs to be adaptable to ISP prefix allocation > policies, and thus make no assumptions about the stability of the > prefix received from an ISP, or the length of the prefix that may be > offered. However, if only a /64 is offered by the ISP, the homenet > may be severely constrained or even unable to function. As stated > above, attempting to use internal subnet prefixes longer than /64 > would break SLAAC, and is thus not recommended. Using ULA prefixes > internally with NPTv6 at the boundary is not recommended for reasons > given elsewhere. Reverting to bridging would destroy subnetting, > breaks multicast if bridged onto 802.11 wireless networks and has > serious limitations with regard to heterogeneous link layer > technologies and LLNs. For those reasons it is recommended that > DHCP-PD or OSPFv3 capable routers have the ability to issue a warning > upon receipt of a /64 if required to assign further prefixes within > the home network. Though some consideration needs to be given to how > that should be presented to a typical home user. > > I agree with the first 3 sentences. However, I disagree wi > th the recommendation for the case where the delegated subnet is insufficient > to meet the needs of the home network. This paragraph recommends that a DHCP > -PD or OSPFv3 capable router issue a warning and recommends against doing any > thing else. As a home user who currently gets a /64 (via 6rd) from my ISP, I > find this recommendation insufficient. I would prefer if a (internal) router > that is not given a /64 provided me with a "warning" that offered options for > alternate ways to configure the router. These options might include bridging > , NPTv6, or even NAT66, and I would be told what I would be giving up (what w > ould break) if I went with any of these choices. But I want choices from that > router. Choices of "move to a different house where you can get service from > a different ISP", "give up", or "complain" are not real choices. "Switch ISP > s" is also not a choice, because there is no other ISP offering se > rvice to my home that can provide the bandwidth my family wants. And whateve > r someone else's reasons are for not wanting to use one of these configuratio > ns, those reasons may not apply to me. For example, I take great pleasure in > breaking end-to-end connectivity to certain devices inside my home network. I > don't mind if I don't have subnetting. I've seen multicast with Wi-Fi links > work great where snooping is implemented on the link. I want the choice to be > mine. If your ISP only supplies a /64 then switch ISP. Truly this is the only way to stop such stupidity. If they only supply a /64 via 6rd run away from them because they are incompentent. It is not rocket science to run multiple 6rd domains. IPv6 prefixes are not scarse. They are less than $0.03/annum per /48 to ISPs from RIRs. > Barbara > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From bs7652@att.com Tue Mar 5 15:54:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B9521F8558 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:54:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TqbxjsCTqVQp for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nbfkord-smmo08.seg.att.com (nbfkord-smmo08.seg.att.com [209.65.160.95]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6848521F8561 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 15:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown [144.160.20.146] (EHLO mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) by nbfkord-smmo08.seg.att.com(mxl_mta-6.15.0-1) over TLS secured channel with ESMTP id 8a586315.0.1763885.00-368.4846004.nbfkord-smmo08.seg.att.com (envelope-from ); Tue, 05 Mar 2013 23:54:20 +0000 (UTC) X-MXL-Hash: 513685ac5a059b73-d100692d6819267207d3ecc95918d30b94f2387b Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r25NsGc6004578; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:54:16 -0500 Received: from mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.239]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r25Ns4Nr004446 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:54:07 -0500 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUB9A.ITServices.sbc.com (gaalpa1msghub9a.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.36.87]) by mlpi407.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor); Tue, 5 Mar 2013 23:53:55 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.36.69]) by GAALPA1MSGHUB9A.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.36.87]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:53:55 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: Mark Andrews Thread-Topic: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 Thread-Index: AQHOGfOLvIyQnhNr60222Exv/lLNB5iXs1NA Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 23:53:55 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C902@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <20130305224758.7FBBA306D1A2@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <20130305224758.7FBBA306D1A2@drugs.dv.isc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.75.62] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Spam: [F=0.2000000000; CM=0.500; S=0.200(2010122901)] X-MAIL-FROM: X-SOURCE-IP: [144.160.20.146] X-AnalysisOut: [v=2.0 cv=f8X/8pOM c=1 sm=0 a=Qs8R1XBwmid1qBFB/a8mmA==:17 a] X-AnalysisOut: [=UfiCKdxgZ7kA:10 a=N9Q95fIw5_0A:10 a=ofMgfj31e3cA:10 a=BLc] X-AnalysisOut: [eEmwcHowA:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=zQP7CpKOAAAA:8 a=XIqpo32R] X-AnalysisOut: [AAAA:8 a=d1L7mKjXeuMA:10 a=6xAmIdOBss5jKHE1IGwA:9 a=CjuIK1] X-AnalysisOut: [q_8ugA:10] Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 23:54:21 -0000 > If your ISP only supplies a /64 then switch ISP. Truly this is the only = way to > stop such stupidity. If they only supply a /64 via 6rd run away from the= m > because they are incompentent. It is not rocket science to run multiple = 6rd > domains. >=20 > IPv6 prefixes are not scarse. They are less than $0.03/annum per /48 to = ISPs > from RIRs. Switching ISPs is not an option at this time. This is the only provider who= offers something close to 30Mbps at a consumer-friendly price. I'm not goi= ng to move, either. In the world of trade-offs and doing what's right for m= e, the /64 is among the least of my concerns. For IETF homenet to attempt t= o influence CE router vendors to force me to care, by recommending they not= provide me with options that will meet my simplistic-consumer wants, strik= es me as not a very nice thing to do. But in my experience, the CE router v= endors tend to give consumers like me the options we want, no matter what t= he IETF recommends. I've just found that if the IETF can be convinced to de= scribe the best way to do non-optimal options, rather than simply recommend= ing against them, then consumers benefit. Barbara From marka@isc.org Tue Mar 5 16:23:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0598911E80E6 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 16:23:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N5ncP0qB1qoT for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 16:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C2111E80A5 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 16:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096EBC9422; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 00:22:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1362529384; bh=ieyolI0H0T3Snm8/y1KRxIkeeZ0aeK+l0eTCiEA2cRU=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=W8PyY1+4SXPz3DYQtLXg6kOJaNDMbf4lc/wMqBtmbkRIAC/659GOa4jBLr8FO+9Yd gj5tqQlsEf31oGKgxwInSlY/H1ory7xHgTRrvahkFt8iqOkCg49ygh9ooAWVNaryoK Z7b7YR6Zw7xuzYETHwHQLZqEv4JHJkaE0dJSVWzo= Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 00:22:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:14dd:329:c316:c4f3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1953216C3B; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 00:22:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B483070F07; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 11:22:56 +1100 (EST) To: "STARK, BARBARA H" From: Mark Andrews References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <20130305224758.7FBBA306D1A2@drugs.dv.isc.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C902@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Mar 2013 23:53:55 -0000." <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C902@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 11:22:56 +1100 Message-Id: <20130306002256.24B483070F07@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-DCC--Metrics: post.isc.org; whitelist Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 00:23:06 -0000 In message <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C902@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices .sbc.com>, "STARK, BARBARA H" writes: > > If your ISP only supplies a /64 then switch ISP. Truly this is the > > only way to stop such stupidity. If they only supply a /64 via 6rd > > run away from them because they are incompentent. It is not rocket > > science to run multiple 6rd domains. > > > > IPv6 prefixes are not scarse. They are less than $0.03/annum per /48 > > to ISPs from RIRs. > > Switching ISPs is not an option at this time. This is the only provider > who offers something close to 30Mbps at a consumer-friendly price. I'm > not going to move, either. In the world of trade-offs and doing what's > right for me, the /64 is among the least of my concerns. For IETF homenet > to attempt to influence CE router vendors to force me to care, by > recommending they not provide me with options that will meet my > simplistic-consumer wants, strikes me as not a very nice thing to do. But > in my experience, the CE router vendors tend to give consumers like me > the options we want, no matter what the IETF recommends. I've just found > that if the IETF can be convinced to describe the best way to do > non-optimal options, rather than simply recommending against them, then > consumers benefit. > Barbara Then require that the homenet router be able to be turned to bridge mode and be done with it. All the ISP's the I am aware of that current only supply /64's have stated that they intend to offer larger prefixes. Most that are doing it are because of broken CPE equipment not because they think it is a good thing to do. There is no real reasons for ISP's to only do /64s except spite the customer. The difference in costs from the RIRs for the bigger address space is chump change even for developing states. All their equipment will support > /64 because the big players want to support that. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From lorenzo@google.com Tue Mar 5 18:54:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E5821F85B4 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:54:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.676 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.676 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jlB89QSejomG for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-f52.google.com (mail-oa0-f52.google.com [209.85.219.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBFA321F8501 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:54:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id k14so11760117oag.39 for ; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 18:54:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=7Y6fgWrdjYtli8k3pR5IftcLPUM5mCvGCrWY0rTAltE=; b=nfeCgs0Uu7tXCj892ofWDgzPvn0Wycypt5o6/z/vcr8JRibkYuULsaJh6Q5mj83FLf AOtqyInnpjCP/JvxqBtWh7Ph40a0RO2/zUrMdvLlrnQ//Z/bNS9GeHeJRNNcPg863bsD 7GThG5MPEzkLoIbT/FciuT8s/rKmYZ91llG+HofFxG5u1hqGzRYtljmgnr94mM4EiEww KIxbcbmzcX4750Nv41ObV3gYA2ZuMMko7Xe9kvwLb0+CXmc67Wh1417uZeDHKQYbQNxv 46C4OhOyvnSdrLBMR7KdxXR4hdsqzyU35qR0AumVGaM4fTHjIKX7pBIdQA6CKQGtl1gP qcrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=7Y6fgWrdjYtli8k3pR5IftcLPUM5mCvGCrWY0rTAltE=; b=EjDri1KIYm7GAbPPZZjIQyJMWWgwe2RMg4e3v6medAnc4T57itAYJWu/+syBDH77fM bh7O5mCOuhmbS3DUEfVi1YrdIy5kWYz1rhOkmq0ivag4UiU2yy02n8kmiaxOwzQnMqOF VDtjPKtea7lrnHVfTG60xJ+sgwaceBQNbo3HJp/qDvRYY9Sggon3yoIXIRSihd+QQb78 RK+tNS0ZLniuQ37pxqN4ZidHPpxuRN0cgl9CA+/DZOkRVey/HLYWDFJU2v1mVIL1qN2b 5Ww0gDSm8puFbAZFOoLKU8l3r/VyFB0NgYiyPHA5cL2jZf7VD5xN1Oz0w21+IbwZwAJg pVSQ== X-Received: by 10.182.202.73 with SMTP id kg9mr17108242obc.95.1362538486498; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 18:54:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.227.70 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:54:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 11:54:26 +0900 Message-ID: To: "STARK, BARBARA H" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f6436fc7bcd5704d738b686 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlcRZJio30f8k9vWCRJvduIpxjn1NnI6huQPT+AEr/YlIt0jpr4Xck0nJWv61Ag9kRdA2vABBs/CcU0bByOJSLn83IsRaa1VVpBHv37kw9EmiQFOS41BwQfs3tJ7ib5TMVxt/x8y7rjiRsO8M1YyJBfEh0xMsMdAxkrPGbq0IZ2N+a31Ahpw0TgzrcTthdzKr/thyW7 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 02:54:47 -0000 --e89a8f6436fc7bcd5704d738b686 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:03 AM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > As a home user who currently gets a /64 (via 6rd) from my ISP, I find this > recommendation insufficient. Who is the ISP? Do you know why they are only handing out /64? Have you tried to talk to them? --e89a8f6436fc7bcd5704d738b686 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:03 AM, STARK, BARBARA H <bs7652@att.com> wrote:
As a home user who currently gets a /64 (via 6rd) from my ISP, I find this recommendation insufficient.

Who is the ISP? Do you know why they are only handing out /64? Have you tried to talk to them?
--e89a8f6436fc7bcd5704d738b686-- From marka@isc.org Tue Mar 5 19:27:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 362E811E80A5 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 19:27:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ytdAhkCJyhKa for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 19:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67C621F858C for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 19:27:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790B5C94D4; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 03:27:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1362540445; bh=STOJFI/n7nTarQxDe0AvlapZoq46Yc+mDmnpInve4Ms=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=F0B3mX1kIt61ZuJe0ESszh7D6J2V79EN07c7aZl4E+fLuEII1c366EnslT2jH9l6R 5iy7PxhUsbtN7VYubH21FSIrXSJ2FUUXYd3z2/1zCYojqzDFsNtTy+xtpiDIo4bk8I G2WqJm4so0Lmqns6y3PZ6t22nJjMvxrlFk5eF0kM= Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 03:27:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:386e:5ec1:f8b1:1682]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3BFAC216C3B; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 03:27:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B1D3071D0D; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:27:20 +1100 (EST) To: Lorenzo Colitti From: Mark Andrews References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Mar 2013 11:54:26 +0900." Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 14:27:20 +1100 Message-Id: <20130306032720.D1B1D3071D0D@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-DCC--Metrics: post.isc.org; whitelist Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , "STARK, BARBARA H" Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 03:27:29 -0000 In message , Lorenzo Colitti writes: > > > As a home user who currently gets a /64 (via 6rd) from my ISP, I find this > > recommendation insufficient. > > > Who is the ISP? Do you know why they are only handing out /64? Have you > tried to talk to them? Lots of ISP's took the easy way out and buried the entire 32 bits of IPv4 address wasting tonnes of space. option 6rd 0 32 2001:DB8:: 2001:DB8::1 2001:DB8::2 When with 10 seconds of thought they could have given everyone a /60 assuming their IPv4 addresses were in 16 or less /8's which covers almost all ISPs on the planet. option 6rd 8 36 2001:DB8:0000: 2001:DB8:0000:1 2001:DB8:0000:2 option 6rd 8 36 2001:DB8:1000: 2001:DB8:1000:1 2001:DB8:1000:2 .... option 6rd 8 36 2001:DB8:f000: 2001:DB8:f000:1 2001:DB8:f000:2 And if your addresses are on 32 or less /8's you hand out /61's. option 6rd 8 37 2001:DB8:0000: 2001:DB8:0000:1 2001:DB8:0000:2 .... option 6rd 8 37 2001:DB8:f800: 2001:DB8:f800:1 2001:DB8:f800:2 or they could have look at each of their IPv4 allocations and made each one its own 6rd domain and handed out /48s. Remember this is all stuff the ISP advertises using DHCP. The end user doesn't have to enter any of this. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From mark@townsley.net Tue Mar 5 20:00:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E7B21F84EF for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:00:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4vEMnZC-jjPG for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f47.google.com (mail-ee0-f47.google.com [74.125.83.47]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A99A21F84E7 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f47.google.com with SMTP id e52so5095380eek.6 for ; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:00:24 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=ia4iY9qpWVQi0xDmQsWn2a7s7S856F+3/ceRDYP/sxo=; b=nwE6RHDTowp9JECqWEGUSQYUeGITNRt9kUpU+O4DWB1Q6BypkEp2IswJ4AhVC6D15t wkXSE/gYmQzvZ6s7QlxOsY/PDT16/aR8yp0kOjttTYcPBqSvWJ0LSR2s3Xy26o9wXxHO pfZMnAqU64wamSzHtjg13nV315Upx6FAxNsRXKvt/UXbnIjVSqFaDWZt1+tn/9vean6W Obl9Dv9ZF+YO4NmAdkovZT8eOFVsgFCEE0emk2ivXFBZs+GIyQoY08otbyustNh3+41k mwPmNgN2GboK+i/5k3y8pkOwUpN8ZgMVynj/3GaxQqLVostUzcpu4UI3tLVzdyo/y8B0 Cwyw== X-Received: by 10.14.3.70 with SMTP id 46mr77888563eeg.2.1362542424156; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:420:c0c1:8:b5ca:6cc3:353a:7ece? ([2001:420:c0c1:8:b5ca:6cc3:353a:7ece]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a1sm40387796eep.2.2013.03.05.20.00.20 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:00:21 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A1FF0A88-DE66-4D50-BE37-4C7341CE7076" From: Mark Townsley In-Reply-To: <43238C9F8B23DA44B42A78D0129283E017FE463C@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 05:00:18 +0100 Message-Id: <9115C701-0CD6-481D-935D-330487BEBF3E@townsley.net> References: <43238C9F8B23DA44B42A78D0129283E017FE463C@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> To: Chris Grundemann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn8RUsZYqodV58sGvYJG0hqncwmCwgo55zssGWRcpzIxBA7xbRxcAB5dNgklrfkcsrwbH8j Cc: Erik Kline , "homenet@ietf.org" , "draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] New Version Notification for draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-00.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 04:00:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A1FF0A88-DE66-4D50-BE37-4C7341CE7076 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mar 5, 2013, at 6:21 PM, Chris Grundemann wrote: > On 3/3/13 5:23 PM, "Erik Kline" wrote: >=20 >>> Very good point Erik, thank you. We will certainly take that into >>> consideration going forward. This is also why we are proposing a mix = of >>> two to three CER/ISP Edge determining characteristics (e.g. = Including >>> the >>> CER_ID option as well as the /48 prefix check, etc.). >>=20 >> Yeah, well about that: I don't see any discussion of the security of >> this CER_ID option. If a hipnet device were operating in an >> environment in which such a thing could be spoofed then it would be >> trivial to punch open a hipnet network. >>=20 >> Furthermore, it will be bad press when someone inevitably publishes = an >> article documenting that your ISP can punch open your hipnet network >> if they so choose just by publishing a CER_ID to you. Really bad >> press. >>=20 >> Maybe this is discussed in the CER_ID doc and you intended to pull = its >> security considerations in by transitive closure, I don't know. >=20 > Right, this is something that would be addressed in the CER_ID draft > itself. While I don't doubt that spoofing or other malicious activity = is > possible, I am not sure I see how the possibility is any greater or = more > sever than it is today with existing DHCPv6 (and ND for that matter) > messages. Are you simply saying that this is a possibility, or are you > inferring that this option would introduce a more serious threat? = Either > way we should likely take this discussion off-list or onto the DHC = list, > since it is directly relevant to the CER_ID draft and only indirectly > associated with the home network architecture more generally. If Homenet is going to use the CER_ID, we need to agree on the use of it=20= here. DHC is there largely to make sure it's formatted correctly and = such,=20 not "semantic content".=20 http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/dhc/charter/: "Generally speaking, the DHC WG will not be responsible for evaluating = the=20 semantic content of proposed options. Similarly, the ownership of = specifications=20 typically belongs the relevant working group that needs more = functionality from=20 DHCP, not the DHC WG. The DHC WG coordinates reviews of the proposed=20 options together with those working groups. It is required that those=20 working groups have consensus to take on the work and that the work is=20= within their charter." - Mark >=20 > Thanks, > ~Chris >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_A1FF0A88-DE66-4D50-BE37-4C7341CE7076 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
On 3/3/13 5:23 PM, "Erik Kline" <ek@google.com> = wrote:

Very = good point Erik, thank you. We will certainly take that = into
consideration going forward. This is also why we are = proposing a mix of
two to three CER/ISP Edge = determining characteristics (e.g. = Including
the
CER_ID option as well as the /48 = prefix check, etc.).

Yeah, well = about that: I don't see any discussion of the security = of
this CER_ID option. =  If a hipnet device were operating in = an
environment in which such a = thing could be spoofed then it would be
trivial to punch open a hipnet = network.

Furthermore, it = will be bad press when someone inevitably publishes = an
article documenting that = your ISP can punch open your hipnet network
if they so choose just by publishing a CER_ID to you. =  Really bad
press.

Maybe this is = discussed in the CER_ID doc and you intended to pull = its
security considerations in = by transitive closure, I don't know.

Right, this is = something that would be addressed in the CER_ID draft
itself. While I = don't doubt that spoofing or other malicious activity is
possible, I = am not sure I see how the possibility is any greater or more
sever = than it is today with existing DHCPv6 (and ND for that = matter)
messages. Are you simply saying that this is a possibility, = or are you
inferring that this option would introduce a more serious = threat? Either
way we should likely take this discussion off-list or = onto the DHC list,
since it is directly relevant to the CER_ID draft = and only indirectly
associated with the home network architecture = more generally.

If Homenet is = going to use the CER_ID, we need to agree on the use of = it 
here. DHC is there largely to make sure it's = formatted correctly and such, 
not "semantic = content". 


"Generally speaking, the = DHC WG will not be responsible for evaluating = the 
semantic content of  proposed options. = Similarly, the ownership of = specifications 
typically belongs the relevant = working group that needs more functionality from 
DHCP, not the = DHC WG. The DHC WG coordinates reviews of the proposed 
options = together with those working groups. It is required that = those 
working groups have consensus to take on the work and = that the work is 
within their = charter."

- Mark


Thanks,
~Chris

__________________________= _____________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

= --Apple-Mail=_A1FF0A88-DE66-4D50-BE37-4C7341CE7076-- From mark@townsley.net Tue Mar 5 20:34:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B044E21F84CD for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:34:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F-nrGQCdH569 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:34:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f44.google.com (mail-ee0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB8921F84CC for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:34:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f44.google.com with SMTP id l10so5136631eei.17 for ; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:34:16 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=T04jJxHkzo+nKDUIRmEnBcwbjLwNUR+WPdtppvwaHtg=; b=Tr+3Zfz5mBkRBC7Bnr6LDMjL2i3nRvr6KoZKFkMt2DIuLW35MEGCaC22p2HCWj/9rp fMeRKjobFzcAYon3px5QMW/QTv1XSL8K06A4B0ONwvrwjnOXJjx0bnF2mHbvZl1Hq7/d 5akiqzdxxEX4UbiezllxLMzrpu88+PMcqxbJkrzX3OTdUMUdLnvNJhb/rpkegJ+ogvCu IgMf/MuhT/Ibi+2h2K2PonlFetTISg/AyFSOsywZ+uNjFzOUwN6HbmufH3SJ2wEj7TbG mQz2cXA9kg6udd+3BgBKAhOzcji3uLII4vicjrlX0HHcKxHa2Ce/fkurbEjhD+gl0mfB fwHQ== X-Received: by 10.14.204.195 with SMTP id h43mr68723664eeo.14.1362544455886; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:34:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:420:c0c1:8:b5ca:6cc3:353a:7ece? ([2001:420:c0c1:8:b5ca:6cc3:353a:7ece]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o3sm40476123eem.15.2013.03.05.20.34.12 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:34:12 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BE055A2A-41FC-4D72-965D-0068A92717D0" From: Mark Townsley In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 05:34:10 +0100 Message-Id: References: To: "Brzozowski, John" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlk2r2a9wYSXDPidyVuZJdngnjXQO3BUz2DKkXehuKlDsvYw/Y2qGczjsSTW7lR50fJBANu Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] homenet-arch review X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 04:34:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BE055A2A-41FC-4D72-965D-0068A92717D0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Replying, changing the very misleading subject.=20 Thanks for the comments, please see inline. On Mar 1, 2013, at 2:45 AM, Brzozowski, John wrote: > Tim, >=20 >=20 > Per your request below here are some comments pertaining to the = section > you mention below. >=20 > * The section seems to hint at two extremes stable on one end and very > dynamic i.e. at each CER reboot. I think it is important to note that > there is middle ground here and that providers typically have good = reason > for requiring prefix changes, largely related to network capacity > management. It is not clear to me if this need to be called out in = the > text, however, I thought you should know. > * Agreed regarding /64 subnet lengths > * This section does not differentiate between a residential service = and a > commercial or SOHO service. Is this outlined elsewhere in the draft? > Does it need to be? That's more of a charter question. While we should aim to create = technology that is generally useful outside the home, the defined scope = is the home. Among other things, this should help underscore the = auto-configuration requirement as the further you dip into SOHO = territory, the more likelihood that there is an administrator of some = sort (whether it be a remote worker's IT department or otherwise) = becomes more and more prevalent.=20 While the "SO" absolutely must be able to work with our "HO" (what looks = to us like a special type of additional ISP, if you will), we stop short = of, say, trying to define the VPN router's security policy or whether it = should use IPsec Tunnel mode or GRE with Transport Mode or SSL or...=20 (Personally, I would like to see homenet's technology have impact = outside the home - we're tackling some important problems IPv6 has had = for a while.)=20 > * Note - some devices today can only utilize a /64 and nothing more = these > would not break. Good point, and this brings up a general issue of working with existing = non-homenet routers that support IPv6. The document should probably = highlight this.=20 > * No NPTv6 please Section 2.4 "As such, neither IPv6 NAT or NPTv6 is recommended for use in the = homenet architecture." > * ULAs support could be introduced at a later date Why wait? > * Agreed regarding bridging avoidance > * How is "relatively stable prefix" defined? Relative to changing the prefix whenever the CER is reset: "Some ISPs may offer relatively stable prefixes, while others may change = the prefix whenever the CER is reset." Feel free to offer up a better description. I think the salient point = ends up being that the home network is going to have to be resilient to = prefix change.=20 > * Good text regarding PIA > * Regarding renumbering also note that operators take precautions to > ensure this is seamless as well including lease time lowering in = advance > of the renumbering event. We have been doing this for years. Consistent with RFC 4912 or not? (because that is what we are pointing = to right now) > * Forced renumbering for privacy sounds unfortunate but based on = various > emails I have seen lately this seems to be something that must be > supported. Yes, sadly.=20 > * Agreed that service discovery is essential >=20 > I hope these comments are useful, I recognize I was not overly = verbose. I > hope this is a feature not a bug. Please let know if you wish to = discuss > further. Thank you for the review and input, John. - Mark >=20 > John > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Chown > Date: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:56 AM > To: "v6ops@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-shishio-v6ops-dpvt >=20 >>=20 >> On 26 Feb 2013, at 14:07, "Brzozowski, John" >> wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> [jjmb] incorrect I have both, just stating that I have both. = Apologies if >> I was not clear. I also have a good # of home routers actively using = IPv6 >> enabled broadband today, ~3%. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Congratulations, btw. That must be a large number when converted to = real >> customers :) >>=20 >>=20 >> The homenet architecture assumes a CPE rather than a single host. It >> discusses ISP allocations in section 3.4.1 of >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07. As that text >> is in WGLC, any comments on that section would be welcome (preferably = on >> the homenet list). >>=20 >>=20 >> Tim >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_BE055A2A-41FC-4D72-965D-0068A92717D0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Tim,


Per your request below here are some = comments pertaining to the section
you mention below.

* The = section seems to hint at two extremes stable on one end and = very
dynamic i.e. at each CER reboot.  I think it is important = to note that
there is middle ground here and that providers typically = have good reason
for requiring prefix changes, largely related to = network capacity
management.  It is not clear to me if this need = to be called out in the
text, however, I thought you should = know.
* Agreed = regarding /64 subnet lengths
* This section does not differentiate between a = residential service and a
commercial or SOHO service.  Is this = outlined elsewhere in the draft?
Does it need to = be?

That's more of a charter = question. While we should aim to create technology that is generally = useful outside the home, the defined scope is the home. Among other = things, this should help underscore the auto-configuration requirement = as the further you dip into SOHO territory, the more likelihood that = there is an administrator of some sort (whether it be a remote worker's = IT department or otherwise) becomes more and more = prevalent. 

While the "SO" absolutely must = be able to work with our "HO" (what looks to us like a special type of = additional ISP, if you will), we stop short of, say, trying to define = the VPN router's security policy or whether it should use IPsec Tunnel = mode or GRE with Transport Mode or SSL = or... 

(Personally, I would like to see = homenet's technology have impact outside the home - we're tackling some = important problems IPv6 has had for a while.) 

* Note - some devices today can only utilize a /64 = and nothing more these
would not = break.

Good point, and this = brings up a general issue of working with existing non-homenet routers = that support IPv6. The document should probably highlight = this. 

* No = NPTv6 please

Section = 2.4

"As = such, neither IPv6 NAT or NPTv6 is recommended for use in the homenet = architecture."

* ULAs = support could be introduced at a later = date

Why = wait?

* Agreed regarding = bridging avoidance
* How is "relatively stable prefix" = defined?

Relative to changing = the prefix whenever the CER is reset:

"Some ISPs may offer relatively stable =
prefixes, while others may change the prefix whenever the CER is =
reset."

Feel free to offer up a better = description. I think the salient point ends up being that the home = network is going to have to be resilient to prefix = change. 


* Good text regarding PIA
* Regarding renumbering = also note that operators take precautions to
ensure this is seamless = as well including lease time lowering in advance
of the renumbering = event.  We have been doing this for = years.

Consistent with RFC = 4912 or not? (because that is what we are pointing to right = now)

* Forced renumbering for = privacy sounds unfortunate but based on various
emails I have seen = lately this seems to be something that must = be
supported.

Yes, = sadly. 

* Agreed that = service discovery is essential

I hope these comments are useful, = I recognize I was not overly verbose.  I
hope this is a feature = not a bug.  Please let know if you wish to = discuss
further.

Thank you = for the review and input, John.

- = Mark


John
-----Original = Message-----
From: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: = Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:56 AM
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [v6ops] new draft: draft-shishio-v6ops-dpvt


On 26 Feb 2013, = at 14:07, "Brzozowski, John"
<John_Brzozowski@Cable.Co= mcast.com> wrote:


[jjmb] = incorrect I have both, just stating that I have both.  Apologies = if
I was not clear.  I = also have a good # of home routers actively using = IPv6
enabled broadband today, = ~3%.




Congratulations, = btw. That must be a large number when converted to = real
customers = :)


The homenet = architecture assumes a CPE rather than a single host. = It
discusses ISP allocations = in section 3.4.1 of
http://tool= s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07.  As that = text
is in WGLC, any comments = on that section would be welcome (preferably = on
the homenet = list).


Tim

____________________________________= ___________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/v6ops
_______________________________________________<= br>homenet mailing = list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet<= br>

= --Apple-Mail=_BE055A2A-41FC-4D72-965D-0068A92717D0-- From mark@townsley.net Tue Mar 5 20:45:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B5711E80F3 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:45:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7cJ+7QMGvE4A for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f43.google.com (mail-ee0-f43.google.com [74.125.83.43]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F84311E80ED for ; Tue, 5 Mar 2013 20:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f43.google.com with SMTP id c50so5120089eek.30 for ; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:45:14 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=6GOVhaUPgh2H4XJFz2lqCEW9xv1f7HDhahsM+gG7SB4=; b=Wp9EDCq5QMlHN/OzRkie6sutGWOty1/MEwdWVH/m7Oq/uRfodezLfGNPJ2KCpaKMzv ONcfVriXIxdNvQAtY01OXAt46QSUsxUkIewMKh7BGDz6A3z2bQOcOjTTYldy7l44fSw5 B4RAsD4CBfWu6i8tNJYuX1jGZXcbJlhAl5VrK+FJaIrx8FT1M+Argj33yLRuRQ89bA8x s53OsAs79OsrNWGQc2jcKlDzVGXvQ79bzugZsm8xfJfPPTHL4DeV+S09245Rb3Rd10wV HplTmsgihzviJr175RMXRN50IovhlMQCuB9CcugJQfSUyxU600ury62iLESUtI8Hdbwx 6PZQ== X-Received: by 10.14.218.71 with SMTP id j47mr77369579eep.28.1362545114215; Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:45:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-townsley-8913.cisco.com (64-103-25-233.cisco.com. [64.103.25.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t4sm40509429eel.0.2013.03.05.20.45.11 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Mar 2013 20:45:11 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mark Townsley In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 05:45:09 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> To: Teco Boot X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkQMa2bH6xAyxIZkj4LOkPfa4b0f3FTnYESA57Tfos/aThWYnwJ95LimCexTLCViHDiaD9k Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 04:45:16 -0000 Ultimately, I would like to see a host in a homenet with multiple = prefixes have at least the same information for guiding source address = selection as a host which is directly connected to multiple networks = with multiple interfaces.=20 - Mark On Mar 4, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Teco Boot wrote: > Reading the homenet-arch, I can't find how multi-addressed hosts are = guided to prefer one address over another. I think such facility is = beneficial in multi-homed homenets. >=20 > Teco >=20 > Op 12 feb. 2013, om 16:00 heeft Ray Bellis het volgende geschreven: >=20 >> This email marks the commencement of Working Group Last Call for = draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07. >>=20 >> The WGLC will end on Monday March 4th. >>=20 >> Ray and Mark. >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Wed Mar 6 00:56:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C5CE21F8881 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 00:56:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.081 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.081 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.610, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6AAuE1n2FJc6 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 00:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-f43.google.com (mail-wg0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D14421F8880 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 00:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id e12so7240337wge.22 for ; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 00:56:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent :mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OyJUXoEMESwNjDlY6nIrbKYTOu8nWyeNKK3AtC8vU1Q=; b=X9C1JJSkwjGZgYQfiP5DDOlVIyWeonapRRDIosE2pllhDB7vJok5zrTwZSpIN90+Sa RjEJcW/7+sQyeWeyRXVNsUL0rWOejsxW2almTXuD23aFtsarGgLjjjVKbNnVBeAyaC8V NTYtBPL4rIaxCGVa0rsHTdsP0gfwG+r1Oxx1GoNivDCkP3HwCLvZZFr+ztHQtjnvqWt+ wt9IubI5xnnjtDT6SbcyyZ36Zd9nQo4F0F8b+GgTkDNj+5qGM7aG47wLT7FDGA4/eeWi GXbbGg5Bn9SPYOOxiRHKzp1+ZRD5ctgAnX5pYhOWZyXqng8jNQEVCzE7WOVRWvZ1NKpz j6cw== X-Received: by 10.180.90.2 with SMTP id bs2mr29037428wib.0.1362560196631; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 00:56:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-101-188-201.as13285.net. [2.101.188.201]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id du2sm25419054wib.0.2013.03.06.00.56.35 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Mar 2013 00:56:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <513704CA.7040600@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 08:56:42 +0000 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "STARK, BARBARA H" References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 08:56:38 -0000 On 05/03/2013 22:03, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > I would prefer if a (internal) router that is not given a /64 provided > me with a "warning" that offered options for alternate ways to configure > the router. These options might include bridging, NPTv6, or even NAT66, > and I would be told what I would be giving up (what would break) if I > went with any of these choices. There is no reason to consider NAT66. It could try ULA+NPTv6, but I would have thought that Mark is right - telling you to set all devices in bridge mode while looking for a better ISP is probably the most practical option. Whether this belongs in the IETF architecture description is another matter. Brian From simon.perreault@viagenie.ca Wed Mar 6 01:02:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E1221F88C7 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 01:02:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ff1xtxse6MsP for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 01:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from jazz.viagenie.ca (jazz.viagenie.ca [IPv6:2620:0:230:8000::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B6E21F88C4 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 01:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [IPv6:2001:660:3001:4012:89ce:677:fab:b4b1]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DD6C040401 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 04:02:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <51370663.6040607@viagenie.ca> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 10:03:31 +0100 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130215 Thunderbird/17.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 09:02:36 -0000 Le 2013-03-05 23:03, STARK, BARBARA H a écrit : > This section of the homenet architecture draft has the following > paragraph: > > The home network needs to be adaptable to ISP prefix allocation > policies, and thus make no assumptions about the stability of the > prefix received from an ISP, or the length of the prefix that may be > offered. However, if only a /64 is offered by the ISP, the homenet > may be severely constrained or even unable to function. As stated > above, attempting to use internal subnet prefixes longer than /64 > would break SLAAC, and is thus not recommended. Using ULA prefixes > internally with NPTv6 at the boundary is not recommended for reasons > given elsewhere. Reverting to bridging would destroy subnetting, > breaks multicast if bridged onto 802.11 wireless networks and has > serious limitations with regard to heterogeneous link layer > technologies and LLNs. For those reasons it is recommended that > DHCP-PD or OSPFv3 capable routers have the ability to issue a > warning upon receipt of a /64 if required to assign further prefixes > within the home network. Though some consideration needs to be given > to how that should be presented to a typical home user. > > I agree with the first 3 sentences. However, I > disagree with the recommendation for the case where the delegated > subnet is insufficient to meet the needs of the home network. This > paragraph recommends that a DHCP-PD or OSPFv3 capable router issue a > warning and recommends against doing anything else. As a home user > who currently gets a /64 (via 6rd) from my ISP, I find this > recommendation insufficient. I would prefer if a (internal) router > that is not given a /64 provided me with a "warning" that offered > options for alternate ways to configure the router. These options > might include bridging, NPTv6, or even NAT66, and I would be told > what I would be giving up (what would break) if I went with any of > these choices. FWIW, I disagree with your proposal, and agree entirely with the current text. Imagine we're in a world where homenet-compliant routers are commonly available in the shops. They're being installed by ISPs that control the CPE. There's a "homenet ready program" that certifies routers and puts stickers on them. This WG has done a good job, and the industry has adopted homenet. I believe this is what we're all aiming for, or should be. Now, in that world, an ISP would be crazy to give a single /64 to its subscribers. They would instantly receive tons of support calls saying that "the router doesn't work". The ISP would get a bad reputation and would lose customers. All the incentives would be aligned to make proper prefix delegation not only possible, but the only logical choice. So ISPs would just give larger prefixes, like everyone wants them to. That is the world I want to live in. Current 6rd deployments that hand out /64s are temporary. And I believe they exist only because of lack of clue, given the early state of IPv6 deployment at those well-intentioned ISPs. We have to build for the future. Simon From v6ops@globis.net Wed Mar 6 01:08:58 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DE5A21F84BD for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 01:08:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q6CHooP9MWxQ for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 01:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from globis01.globis.net (RayH-1-pt.tunnel.tserv11.ams1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f14:62e::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2133B21F8470 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 01:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3769987011D; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:08:41 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at globis01.globis.net Received: from globis01.globis.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.globis.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ypyx64-Dt-+4; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:08:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from Rays-iMac-2.local (unknown [192.168.0.3]) (Authenticated sender: Ray.Hunter@globis.net) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 88A6587005B; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:08:24 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <51370782.6020305@globis.net> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 10:08:18 +0100 From: Ray Hunter User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.7 (Macintosh/20130119) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "STARK, BARBARA H" References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 09:08:58 -0000 STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > This section of the homenet architecture draft has the following paragr= aph: > > The home network needs to be adaptable to ISP prefix allocation > policies, and thus make no assumptions about the stability of the > prefix received from an ISP, or the length of the prefix that may be= > offered. However, if only a /64 is offered by the ISP, the homenet > may be severely constrained or even unable to function. As stated > above, attempting to use internal subnet prefixes longer than /64 > would break SLAAC, and is thus not recommended. Using ULA prefixes > internally with NPTv6 at the boundary is not recommended for reasons= > given elsewhere. Reverting to bridging would destroy subnetting, > breaks multicast if bridged onto 802.11 wireless networks and has > serious limitations with regard to heterogeneous link layer > technologies and LLNs. For those reasons it is recommended that > DHCP-PD or OSPFv3 capable routers have the ability to issue a warnin= g > upon receipt of a /64 if required to assign further prefixes within > the home network. Though some consideration needs to be given to ho= w > that should be presented to a typical home user. > > I agree with the first 3 sentences. However, I disag= ree with the recommendation for the case where the delegated subnet is in= sufficient to meet the needs of the home network. This paragraph recommen= ds that a DHCP-PD or OSPFv3 capable router issue a warning and recommends= against doing anything else. As a home user who currently gets a /64 (vi= a 6rd) from my ISP, I find this recommendation insufficient. I would pref= er if a (internal) router that is not given a /64 provided me with a "war= ning" that offered options for alternate ways to configure the router. Th= ese options might include bridging, NPTv6, or even NAT66, and I would be = told what I would be giving up (what would break) if I went with any of t= hese choices. But I want choices from that router. Choices of "move to a = different house where you can get service from a different ISP", "give up= ", or "complain" are not real choices. "Switch ISPs" is also not a choice= , because there is no other ISP offering service to my home that can prov= ide the bandwidth my family wants. And whatever someone else's reasons ar= e for not wanting to use one of these configurations, those reasons may n= ot apply to me. For example, I take great pleasure in breaking end-to-end= connectivity to certain devices inside my home network. I don't mind if = I don't have subnetting. I've seen multicast with Wi-Fi links work great = where snooping is implemented on the link. I want the choice to be mine. > > Barbara > All IMVHO Trying to make homenet work with a single /64 or insufficient /64s to number every subnet uniquely, is unnecessary and a waste of cycles in this WG. The homenet WG charter is to cover "multiple routers" using "existing protocols". Also, defining predictable fallback behavior in the presence of multiple devices running autoconfig is doomed to failure. Besides, people already know how to bridge, how to do NAPT, and how to do 6204 bis. I do not think that the current text excludes any of the actions Barbara wants, provided the user accepts that they are no longer running a homene= t. Maybe we could make that clearer. So perhaps add after the 1st sentence in the quoted paragraph. "The homenet architecture is designed to work well when sufficient /64 prefixes are availableto uniquely number subnets using SLAAC." And at the end of the paragraph: "A homenet device may then revert to one of various fall back modes, given various limitations on functionality. These fall back modes may be acceptable to the user in certain limited circumstances, but it should be very clear that the device is no longer functioning as defined by the homenet architecture." regards, RayH From mark@townsley.net Wed Mar 6 05:36:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D8921F89F9 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 05:36:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fHMXXri2Ru9Q for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 05:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f45.google.com (mail-ee0-f45.google.com [74.125.83.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443AA21F851E for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 05:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f45.google.com with SMTP id b57so5533140eek.4 for ; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 05:36:26 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=Y6cBSTpGhNhc0kQVqTO/apW1mYyTeoeS8HEcHDsWM94=; b=G2xFyG3uKcV9BQRq36YfHmTEmaEXJN4ZJdLi6BHLMnJF+XOg4vF2qdNbquitT0piOZ lsW32OlSpYx7OIe6Nyz0agkH5W+1AMOnvywK60rpUCsPh3+ZMfSQVyCt9MIrMsGnVzLE iUKbKtVFjSh7RVGp/UngNNzyI4u3Fpu4AVKiyBzaWDV7Kdzjl+0fcGikLvHZ//NBTX77 RJYcSFk9epAClKpJY+1oCeVf8A5YE1JumbV22JPXOl6XTN4dgNJlCJaXlR4hGzt/kGTS 6SayDpXMSJhA5nTIy70YbDQewriZ6c1kjS9zKuiuIbf+IVAc5Arv5yKpuvlvXCj/FhrI zG/Q== X-Received: by 10.14.216.198 with SMTP id g46mr81593183eep.30.1362576986266; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 05:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:420:c0c1:8:a4:3b65:757d:845d? ([2001:420:c0c1:8:a4:3b65:757d:845d]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f47sm42522060eep.13.2013.03.06.05.36.24 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Mar 2013 05:36:24 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7B771C68-B79D-4012-82DF-11B5BABAD8B2" From: Mark Townsley In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:36:22 +0100 Message-Id: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> To: Lorenzo Colitti X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQltjRlIIQP4eacFdUa47u3khzmUeuOt/gorZg/6PvnDHE9OpQq0HxkdNScwkgPPPMWIZjZA Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , "STARK, BARBARA H" Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:36:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7B771C68-B79D-4012-82DF-11B5BABAD8B2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 If she is on the 6rd deployment I think she is, the gateway itself is = getting a /60 from 6rd. The limitation is not 6rd or the ISP trying to = be stingy per se. The limitation is that the gateway currently isn't = sub-delegating to subtended routers, and the LAN ports are bridged and = served by the same /64 anyway. The current policies in ARIN and RIPE are such that there really is no = excuse for an ISP to limit to /64 with 6rd, even without resorting to = multiple domains. I don't know of any large 6rd deployments that are = limiting themselves to /64 within the mapping rule itself today, but = I've stopped keeping track now as it has become rather widely understood = and available.=20 - Mark On Mar 6, 2013, at 3:54 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:03 AM, STARK, BARBARA H = wrote: > As a home user who currently gets a /64 (via 6rd) from my ISP, I find = this recommendation insufficient. >=20 > Who is the ISP? Do you know why they are only handing out /64? Have = you tried to talk to them? > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_7B771C68-B79D-4012-82DF-11B5BABAD8B2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:03 AM, STARK, BARBARA H <bs7652@att.com> wrote:
As a home user who = currently gets a /64 (via 6rd) from my ISP, I find this recommendation = insufficient.

Who is the ISP? Do you know why they are only = handing out /64? Have you tried to talk to them?
_______________________________________________
homenet mailing = list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

= --Apple-Mail=_7B771C68-B79D-4012-82DF-11B5BABAD8B2-- From bs7652@att.com Wed Mar 6 07:45:46 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B29921F8AD1 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:45:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.199, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vtTiUdlT8AbB for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nbfkord-smmo05.seg.att.com (nbfkord-smmo05.seg.att.com [209.65.160.92]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C786321F8ADB for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown [144.160.20.146] (EHLO mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) by nbfkord-smmo05.seg.att.com(mxl_mta-6.15.0-1) over TLS secured channel with ESMTP id 2a467315.0.2523988.00-468.6964399.nbfkord-smmo05.seg.att.com (envelope-from ); Wed, 06 Mar 2013 15:45:43 +0000 (UTC) X-MXL-Hash: 513764a74230a211-74ca2685cce74ddd0a98d5b96be23bfb23fb174b Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r26Fjaq4026526 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:45:38 -0500 Received: from mlpi408.sfdc.sbc.com (mlpi408.sfdc.sbc.com [130.9.128.240]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r26FjTaR026387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:45:33 -0500 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUB9F.ITServices.sbc.com (gaalpa1msghub9f.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.36.92]) by mlpi408.sfdc.sbc.com (RSA Interceptor) for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:45:13 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.36.69]) by GAALPA1MSGHUB9F.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.36.92]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 10:45:13 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 Thread-Index: AQHOGm/K6eGEoPydkUuf2y7hswv5qZiYyPpw Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:45:12 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302652C9@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.62.239] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302652C9GAALPA1MSGUSR9L_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Spam: [F=0.2000000000; CM=0.500; S=0.200(2010122901)] X-MAIL-FROM: X-SOURCE-IP: [144.160.20.146] X-AnalysisOut: [v=2.0 cv=Otj4PVDt c=1 sm=0 a=Qs8R1XBwmid1qBFB/a8mmA==:17 a] X-AnalysisOut: [=TTxMUNquFC8A:10 a=N9Q95fIw5_0A:10 a=ofMgfj31e3cA:10 a=BLc] X-AnalysisOut: [eEmwcHowA:10 a=zQP7CpKOAAAA:8 a=XIqpo32RAAAA:8 a=d1L7mKjXe] X-AnalysisOut: [uMA:10 a=zFmFt3I4AAAA:8 a=Srmbb55kBSraIRu1sWAA:9 a=CjuIK1q] X-AnalysisOut: [_8ugA:10 a=5ibGQIZCS_8A:10 a=Hz7IrDYlS0cA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAA] X-AnalysisOut: [A:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a] X-AnalysisOut: [=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=cmE] X-AnalysisOut: [Lv61VWI8Lxnn1:21] Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 15:45:46 -0000 --_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302652C9GAALPA1MSGUSR9L_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No. It's not AT&T's 6rd deployment. I can't get a 30Mbps service from AT&T. It's actually listed as a trial, so it's not known to me how long it will b= e this way, and I don't think it's appropriate to flame or complain about a= n MSO's trial IPv6 6rd service, much as I might enjoy that. They say that t= hey are headed to dual stack. But my personal philosophy is not to believe = in promises of what will be (especially promises that have no date or timel= ine provided), and to accept the high likelihood that the current state of = affairs will continue to exist for the next several years. But since the following info is available publicly on the Internet, I'll po= int you to the following link: http://www.myaccount.charter.com/customers/Support.aspx?SupportArticleID=3D= 2665 Specific 6rd trial info is on this page under the heading "Preparing for IP= v6". This is clearly labeled as a trial, and I would rather have them commended = for offering this, than lambasted for the fact that it doesn't meet expecta= tions of individuals in the IETF. I see no need to talk to them about it. I= have no complaint with it. Barbara If she is on the 6rd deployment I think she is, the gateway itself is getti= ng a /60 from 6rd. The limitation is not 6rd or the ISP trying to be stingy= per se. The limitation is that the gateway currently isn't sub-delegating = to subtended routers, and the LAN ports are bridged and served by the same = /64 anyway. The current policies in ARIN and RIPE are such that there really is no excu= se for an ISP to limit to /64 with 6rd, even without resorting to multiple = domains. I don't know of any large 6rd deployments that are limiting themse= lves to /64 within the mapping rule itself today, but I've stopped keeping = track now as it has become rather widely understood and available. - Mark On Mar 6, 2013, at 3:54 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:03 AM, STARK, BARBARA H > wrote: As a home user who currently gets a /64 (via 6rd) from my ISP, I find this = recommendation insufficient. Who is the ISP? Do you know why they are only handing out /64? Have you tri= ed to talk to them? --_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302652C9GAALPA1MSGUSR9L_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No. It’s not AT&T’s 6rd= deployment. I can’t get a 30Mbps service from AT&T.

It’s actually listed as a trial, = so it’s not known to me how long it will be this way, and I don’= ;t think it’s appropriate to flame or complain about an MSO’s t= rial IPv6 6rd service, much as I might enjoy that. They say that they are headed to dual= stack. But my personal philosophy is not to believe in promises of what wi= ll be (especially promises that have no date or timeline provided), and to = accept the high likelihood that the current state of affairs will continue to exist for the next several y= ears.

But since the following info is availab= le publicly on the Internet, I’ll point you to the following link:

http://www.myaccount.charter.com/customers/Support.aspx?SupportA= rticleID=3D2665

Specific 6rd trial info is on this page= under the heading “Preparing for IPv6”.

 

This is clearly labeled as a trial, and= I would rather have them commended for offering this, than lambasted for t= he fact that it doesn’t meet expectations of individuals in the IETF. I see no need to talk to them about it. I have no complaint w= ith it.

Barbara

 <= /p>

If she is on the 6rd deployment I think she is, the = gateway itself is getting a /60 from 6rd. The limitation is not 6rd or the = ISP trying to be stingy per se. The limitation is that the gateway currentl= y isn't sub-delegating to subtended routers, and the LAN ports are bridged and served by the same /64 anyway.<= o:p>

 

The current policies in ARIN and RIPE are such that = there really is no excuse for an ISP to limit to /64 with 6rd, even without= resorting to multiple domains. I don't know of any large 6rd deployments t= hat are limiting themselves to /64 within the mapping rule itself today, but I've stopped keeping track now a= s it has become rather widely understood and available. 

 

- Mark

 

On Mar 6, 2013, at 3:54 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:

 

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:03 AM, STARK, BARBARA H <= ;bs7652@att.com>= wrote:

As a home user who currently gets a /64 (via 6rd) fr= om my ISP, I find this recommendation insufficient.

 

Who is the ISP? Do you know why they are only handin= g out /64? Have you tried to talk to them?

--_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302652C9GAALPA1MSGUSR9L_-- From C.Donley@cablelabs.com Wed Mar 6 08:35:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA9B21F8C53 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:35:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r5iqYmyp-mRG for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6720821F8C4E for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r26GPnI9007622; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:25:49 -0700 Received: from exchange.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.19) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Wed, 06 Mar 2013 09:25:49 -0700 (MST) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) Received: from EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee]) by EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee%11]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:25:49 -0700 From: Chris Donley To: Mark Andrews , "STARK, BARBARA H" Thread-Topic: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 Thread-Index: AQHOGodDBGiKqAj7h0+xTH/Y/2e4rQ== Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 16:25:48 +0000 Message-ID: <8B09A8FA963FEF43835B9C215704654E17FFCF3C@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> In-Reply-To: <20130306002256.24B483070F07@drugs.dv.isc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [10.4.0.194] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <1F5E3C6A20049C4889FD3DCB77923034@cablelabs.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Approved: ondar Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 16:35:19 -0000 On 3/5/13 5:22 PM, "Mark Andrews" wrote: >There is no real reasons for ISP's to only do /64s except spite the >customer. The difference in costs from the RIRs for the bigger >address space is chump change even for developing states. All their >equipment will support > /64 because the big players want to support >that. > Actually, that's not quite right. A number of ISPs are only offering /64s because a significant number of IPv6-supporting home routers can't handle shorter prefixes (although it's getting better) - we've seen this in our lab. ISPs I've spoken with plan to offer shorter prefixes as home routers can support them. > From mcr@sandelman.ca Wed Mar 6 11:58:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F36E21F8A0D for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 11:58:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1vDxacksIpbH for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 11:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380F821F89C7 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 11:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9864D2016D for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 1E017636BE; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08434636AE for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:58:10 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "" In-Reply-To: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] last call comments on section 3.7 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:58:21 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Michael" =3D=3D Michael Thomas writes: Michael> 3.7.1 Service Discovery Michael> This section starts out with telling us how it will be Michael> presented to the user (GUI) without any reference to why a Michael> user or anything else needs service discovery. As service Michael> discovery is not common on the internet today, I think this yeah, but it is done in the home LAN right now and is quite common. I am not sure that we need to go on at length about why we need this. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUTef0YqHRg3pndX9AQJomgQAusuFIFjC0SJsYENBzQ36UhQLY6OgMubM pjm0N5fRIHrwtkdsYj2VeXlRISOCQJ6GWoEXtBxto9VNA1ClO2+YhCX9zGtlamMp iKXXiUl8zLM/mycwW3od+NHlIfVa/XwHtvbqfll4QCMwU/E823x2CQ6RwuZkL2mP SC6yzVunPJs= =hlK+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 6 12:05:54 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFDEA21F8936 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:05:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E4EM5DgjFSk3 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:05:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426D521F87AF for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:05:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r26K5hDb011046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:05:44 -0800 Message-ID: <5137A197.6080006@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:05:43 -0800 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <12335.1362599889@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <12335.1362599889@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=892; t=1362600349; x=1363464349; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20last=20call=20comments=20on =20section=203.7 |Sender:=20 |To:=20Michael=20Richardson=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=xOG81kx0y6oNdncjB1/ZQqIunKQXb/Cls0ET2FWESKY=; b=s0vPZIhViVItKaNO8AzY4VmuxEuz6z7sdXXhorMgx7OBPFg1aQ9xCtoGqp 7QkBTZO1XChxnxvS6w4mIuLPbhdiXMvsSCRs1pOd4935qaJ5vi5Zz4imXBIk zJtpT26VFFVIsr8uCcj7ps8ZH37xpo4WqU4xjjy+R5fhL+ok2rdvQ=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "" Subject: Re: [homenet] last call comments on section 3.7 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 20:05:54 -0000 On 03/06/2013 11:58 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: >>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Thomas writes: > Michael> 3.7.1 Service Discovery > > Michael> This section starts out with telling us how it will be > Michael> presented to the user (GUI) without any reference to why a > Michael> user or anything else needs service discovery. As service > Michael> discovery is not common on the internet today, I think this > > yeah, but it is done in the home LAN right now and is quite common. > I am not sure that we need to go on at length about why we need this. > In my experience, anything in IETF that posits some sort of UI has already gone off the rails. As far as common, "capable of" does not mean "used". I stand by my assertion that this needs fleshed out a lot more, especially as it relates to the Internet and its protocols. Mike From mark@townsley.net Wed Mar 6 12:42:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AAEC21F8521 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:42:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id In-fhogpUrwy for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ee0-f48.google.com (mail-ee0-f48.google.com [74.125.83.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7103111E80FF for ; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 12:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ee0-f48.google.com with SMTP id t10so6216982eei.35 for ; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:42:32 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=6cxQJSrpIyOcDShVxC0wOxJ6Gce+zGX4KAwSae87wjk=; b=ZlgLAtBdJIHi0M4aTxC2QoJl6NpJ/W2t6vpNRz0USec8Zs3g6b9JYPXM+tegNdanSg UyHmnGZm+joyWSZlTvy/8RAWE5IX8VYsbHYdxGSsomGGPxOdHXSDWi8K0q/Lp/CShTw8 FiY09D65GGRqtSvq3UZRiFbrYksZpCzP96XMgYzFdRguhMU/+h9v65wY0g9z0O4nGJjI Ly3aojl1WRXauASIjO0mAxjnTIwO8r+648GvQmefxzWVP81J4HvucyIAfokIpM60eZ4Q 4o+HEB3zvDDfhJCgZwjZrGklKAlu9DcAeH7bAKF60Ld5K9naWw+mJUgCqRaEPfsR36xx f0fQ== X-Received: by 10.14.194.198 with SMTP id m46mr8508735een.8.1362602552486; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-townsley-8912.cisco.com (64-103-25-233.cisco.com. [64.103.25.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z45sm23805078eeu.10.2013.03.06.12.42.28 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:42:28 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4FEFFD2F-2871-4905-8B5F-121FFC729067" From: Mark Townsley In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302652C9@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 21:42:26 +0100 Message-Id: <798D4C97-D58F-4FD4-B6E4-60A7CC3AC277@townsley.net> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E611302652C9@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> To: "STARK, BARBARA H" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlSgpS+N0i29BlYC+BhVVOQn+t+Qegz1f9iTcViCZcSPXSpEjXukMNEttKn59GVVAvB40el Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 20:42:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4FEFFD2F-2871-4905-8B5F-121FFC729067 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Mar 6, 2013, at 4:45 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > No. It=92s not AT&T=92s 6rd deployment. I can=92t get a 30Mbps service = from AT&T. Silly me! Indeed, they are deploying within a /32, leaving only a /64 for your RG.=20= 6rd Prefix =3D 2602:100::/32 Border Relay Address =3D 68.114.165.1 6rd prefix length =3D 32 IPv4 mask length =3D 0 Good they will move to dual-stack. If they find more users wanting to = use 6rd and more gateways knowing what to do with more than a single = /64, they should be able to get space from ARIN such that giving more = than a /64 with 6rd is still possible (even with a single domain). We = worked very hard on making sure that was possible at the policy level. Thanks for the pointer, I was unaware of this one.=20 - Mark > It=92s actually listed as a trial, so it=92s not known to me how long = it will be this way, and I don=92t think it=92s appropriate to flame or = complain about an MSO=92s trial IPv6 6rd service, much as I might enjoy = that. They say that they are headed to dual stack. But my personal = philosophy is not to believe in promises of what will be (especially = promises that have no date or timeline provided), and to accept the high = likelihood that the current state of affairs will continue to exist for = the next several years. > But since the following info is available publicly on the Internet, = I=92ll point you to the following link: > = http://www.myaccount.charter.com/customers/Support.aspx?SupportArticleID=3D= 2665 > Specific 6rd trial info is on this page under the heading =93Preparing = for IPv6=94. > =20 > This is clearly labeled as a trial, and I would rather have them = commended for offering this, than lambasted for the fact that it doesn=92t= meet expectations of individuals in the IETF. I see no need to talk to = them about it. I have no complaint with it. > Barbara > =20 > If she is on the 6rd deployment I think she is, the gateway itself is = getting a /60 from 6rd. The limitation is not 6rd or the ISP trying to = be stingy per se. The limitation is that the gateway currently isn't = sub-delegating to subtended routers, and the LAN ports are bridged and = served by the same /64 anyway. > =20 > The current policies in ARIN and RIPE are such that there really is no = excuse for an ISP to limit to /64 with 6rd, even without resorting to = multiple domains. I don't know of any large 6rd deployments that are = limiting themselves to /64 within the mapping rule itself today, but = I've stopped keeping track now as it has become rather widely understood = and available.=20 > =20 > - Mark > =20 > On Mar 6, 2013, at 3:54 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > =20 > On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 7:03 AM, STARK, BARBARA H = wrote: > As a home user who currently gets a /64 (via 6rd) from my ISP, I find = this recommendation insufficient. > =20 > Who is the ISP? Do you know why they are only handing out /64? Have = you tried to talk to them? > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_4FEFFD2F-2871-4905-8B5F-121FFC729067 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252

On Mar 6, 2013, at 4:45 = PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote:

No. It=92s not AT&T=92s = 6rd deployment. I can=92t get a 30Mbps service from = AT&T.

Silly = me!

Indeed, they are deploying within a = /32, leaving only a /64 for your RG. 
  1. 6rd = Prefix =3D 2602:100::/32
  2. Border Relay = Address =3D 68.114.165.1
  3. 6rd prefix length = =3D 32
  4. IPv4 mask length = =3D 0
Good they will move to dual-stack. If = they find more users wanting to use 6rd and more gateways knowing what = to do with more than a single /64, they should be able to get space from = ARIN such that giving more than a /64 with 6rd is still possible (even = with a single domain). We worked very hard on making sure that was = possible at the policy level.

Thanks for = the pointer, I was unaware of this one. 

- = Mark


It=92s actually listed as a trial, so it=92s not known to = me how long it will be this way, and I don=92t think it=92s appropriate = to flame or complain about an MSO=92s trial IPv6 6rd service, much as I = might enjoy that. They say that they are headed to dual stack. But my = personal philosophy is not to believe in promises of what will be = (especially promises that have no date or timeline provided), and to = accept the high likelihood that the current state of affairs will = continue to exist for the next several = years.
But since the following info = is available publicly on the Internet, I=92ll point you to the following = link:
Who is the ISP? Do you = know why they are only handing out /64? Have you tried to talk to = them?homenet@ietf.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Approved: ondar Cc: Erik Kline , "homenet@ietf.org" , "draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] New Version Notification for draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-00.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:59:30 -0000 DQoNCk9uIDMvNS8xMyA5OjAwIFBNLCAiTWFyayBUb3duc2xleSIgPG1hcmtAdG93bnNsZXkubmV0 PiB3cm90ZToNCj4NCj5JZiBIb21lbmV0IGlzIGdvaW5nIHRvIHVzZSB0aGUgQ0VSX0lELCB3ZSBu ZWVkIHRvIGFncmVlIG9uIHRoZSB1c2Ugb2YgaXQNCj5oZXJlLiBESEMgaXMgdGhlcmUgbGFyZ2Vs eSB0byBtYWtlIHN1cmUgaXQncyBmb3JtYXR0ZWQgY29ycmVjdGx5IGFuZA0KPnN1Y2gsIA0KPm5v dCAic2VtYW50aWMgY29udGVudCIuDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIGNsYXJpZmljYXRpb24gTWFy aywgSSBtaXN1bmRlcnN0b29kIHRoYXQgcmVsYXRpb25zaGlwLiBJdA0Kc291bmRzIGxpa2Ugd2Ug bWF5IG5lZWQgdG8gcHJlc2VudC9kaXNjdXNzIHRoZSBDRVJfSUQgZHJhZnQgaW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVy ZSwNCmlmIHRoZXJlIGlzIGludGVyZXN0IGluIHB1cnN1aW5nIGl0IHdpdGhpbiBob21lbmV0Lg0K DQpDaGVlcnMsDQp+Q2hyaXMNCg0KPg0KPmh0dHA6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy93Zy9k aGMvY2hhcnRlci86DQo+DQo+DQo+IkdlbmVyYWxseSBzcGVha2luZywgdGhlIERIQyBXRyB3aWxs IG5vdCBiZSByZXNwb25zaWJsZSBmb3IgZXZhbHVhdGluZw0KPnRoZSANCj5zZW1hbnRpYyBjb250 ZW50IG9mICBwcm9wb3NlZCBvcHRpb25zLiBTaW1pbGFybHksIHRoZSBvd25lcnNoaXAgb2YNCj5z cGVjaWZpY2F0aW9ucyANCj50eXBpY2FsbHkgYmVsb25ncyB0aGUgcmVsZXZhbnQgd29ya2luZyBn cm91cCB0aGF0IG5lZWRzIG1vcmUNCj5mdW5jdGlvbmFsaXR5IGZyb20NCj5ESENQLCBub3QgdGhl IERIQyBXRy4gVGhlIERIQyBXRyBjb29yZGluYXRlcyByZXZpZXdzIG9mIHRoZSBwcm9wb3NlZA0K Pm9wdGlvbnMgdG9nZXRoZXIgd2l0aCB0aG9zZSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3Vwcy4gSXQgaXMgcmVxdWly ZWQgdGhhdCB0aG9zZQ0KPndvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXBzIGhhdmUgY29uc2Vuc3VzIHRvIHRha2Ugb24g dGhlIHdvcmsgYW5kIHRoYXQgdGhlIHdvcmsgaXMNCj53aXRoaW4gdGhlaXIgY2hhcnRlci4iDQo+ DQo+DQo+LSBNYXJrDQo+DQo+DQo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX18NCj5ob21lbmV0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPmhvbWVuZXRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5o dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2hvbWVuZXQNCj4NCj4NCj4NCj4N Cj4NCg0K From ot@cisco.com Fri Mar 8 00:11:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB9021F8681 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 00:11:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LhJ7r2-LR6GF for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 00:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 414FA21F8648 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 00:11:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=873; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1362730294; x=1363939894; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=7cXNMaDHhPeGoBhdHNtIG0+IMJJ51xpwlOGx1GLZWt0=; b=gyzKVDknYFQecl3PRF1Ey4x7QyL35PPhJ673gzjkpbHZmV2HL99BvYlI qmm5wm3UfCTCiQPAJStvg75+vwjMImgomLsY64M24lcgrodwokrw3pWk8 bgVEVO59BoTJcxrdwqvkjeq9ZdZzYKlH8JLhtPwUDHQmlP87zYR+XAe5N s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAGaaOVGtJV2d/2dsb2JhbABDxEyBWBZ0gisBAQEDATo/EAsOBDRJDgaIIAa7PY5ZMweCX2EDlkuQcYMK X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,806,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="182218634" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Mar 2013 08:11:24 +0000 Received: from dhcp-lys01-vla250-10-147-112-106.cisco.com (dhcp-lys01-vla250-10-147-112-106.cisco.com [10.147.112.106]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r288BMXV014062 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:11:23 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <8B09A8FA963FEF43835B9C215704654E17FFCF3C@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 09:11:22 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0DE8E21B-358D-4C01-8E9F-E1EB14514431@cisco.com> References: <8B09A8FA963FEF43835B9C215704654E17FFCF3C@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> To: Chris Donley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , "STARK, BARBARA H" , Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 08:11:37 -0000 >> There is no real reasons for ISP's to only do /64s except spite the >> customer. The difference in costs from the RIRs for the bigger >> address space is chump change even for developing states. All their >> equipment will support > /64 because the big players want to support >> that. >>=20 > Actually, that's not quite right. A number of ISPs are only offering = /64s > because a significant number of IPv6-supporting home routers can't = handle > shorter prefixes (although it's getting better) - we've seen this in = our > lab. ISPs I've spoken with plan to offer shorter prefixes as home = routers > can support them. right. changing the homenet architecture because of buggy software seems = like putting the cart in front of the horse. I heard about this bug years ago, wasn't aware it still existed in = current gear. does it? Ole= From v6ops@globis.net Fri Mar 8 12:20:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C7121F874B for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 12:20:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.479 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.479 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.120, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w4WNEMDNz-EU for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 12:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from globis01.globis.net (RayH-1-pt.tunnel.tserv11.ams1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f14:62e::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7214021F87AF for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 12:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E22A870081; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 21:20:18 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at globis01.globis.net Received: from globis01.globis.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.globis.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QpqfYldrcct4; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 21:19:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from Rays-iMac-2.local (unknown [192.168.0.3]) (Authenticated sender: Ray.Hunter@globis.net) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BBD52870066; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 21:19:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <513A47DF.9080309@globis.net> Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 21:19:43 +0100 From: Ray Hunter User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.7 (Macintosh/20130119) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ole Troan References: <8B09A8FA963FEF43835B9C215704654E17FFCF3C@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> <0DE8E21B-358D-4C01-8E9F-E1EB14514431@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0DE8E21B-358D-4C01-8E9F-E1EB14514431@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Chris Donley , "STARK, BARBARA H" , Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 20:20:35 -0000 Ole Troan wrote: >>> There is no real reasons for ISP's to only do /64s except spite the >>> customer. The difference in costs from the RIRs for the bigger >>> address space is chump change even for developing states. All their >>> equipment will support > /64 because the big players want to support >>> that. >>> >> Actually, that's not quite right. A number of ISPs are only offering /64s >> because a significant number of IPv6-supporting home routers can't handle >> shorter prefixes (although it's getting better) - we've seen this in our >> lab. ISPs I've spoken with plan to offer shorter prefixes as home routers >> can support them. > > right. changing the homenet architecture because of buggy software seems like putting the cart in front of the horse. > > I heard about this bug years ago, wasn't aware it still existed in current gear. does it? > > Ole Even if it does, so what? We're not seriously trying to make homenet backwards compatible with old routers that presume they are the only L3 device on the network? I hope that we specify homenet assuming BCP 157. Then ISPs will know that they should design their provisioning systems so that they always delegate much more than a single /64 to any homenet customer. They might even do so, as it'll probably be cheaper than handling the helpdesk calls resulting from the hacks needed to deal withinadequate prefix lengths in PD. regards RayH From mcr@sandelman.ca Fri Mar 8 22:26:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7846021F852A for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 22:26:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.244 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.244 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N3qx+utsZ0Yr for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 22:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C476121F8528 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 22:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [209.128.20.133]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B6EB22064; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 06:26:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sandelman.ca (quigon.sandelman.ca [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EED2CA0D3; Fri, 8 Mar 2013 21:05:20 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "homenet@ietf.org" In-reply-to: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C902@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <20130305224758.7FBBA306D1A2@drugs.dv.isc.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C902@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> Comments: In-reply-to "STARK, BARBARA H" message dated "Tue, 05 Mar 2013 23:53:55 +0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 21:05:20 -0500 Message-ID: <17834.1362794720@sandelman.ca> Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: "STARK, BARBARA H" Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2013 06:26:39 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "STARK," =3D=3D STARK, BARBARA H writes: STARK> Switching ISPs is not an option at this time. This is the STARK> only provider who offers something close to 30Mbps at a STARK> consumer-friendly price. I'm not going to move, either. In STARK> the world of trade-offs and doing what's right for me, the STARK> /64 is among the least of my concerns. For IETF homenet to STARK> attempt to influence CE router vendors to force me to care, I think you should, until your ISP and your CE router are sorted out, turn off your IPv6 at your router, and just use Teredo or an explicit tunnel with sixxs.net for your work-at-home IPv6 needs. I don't think that homenet should accomodate the particular set of constraints that you have. I believe that they will go away. (me: I prefer end to end connectivity over the multi-dozen-megabit/s consumer-style, high-latency, bufferbloated incument telco junk. Mind you, they can't even spell IPv6...) =2D-=20 Michael Richardson =2Don the road- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAABAgAGBQJROpjgAAoJEKD0KQ7Gj3P2nSEIAJWSgU2Omp4lnXSpDMGt3NPo H7Po7/DUvd63ocDC/4EIzOQhRxYtTvgJGwM3To4E8jX/jAiXWarudnwXNO73JwUz U4xYloGYDnWZX179yXKKhkU3ZxDnM8D8LnjpyHXJq19Rkp6eWxh3usBttD3JzskX jBAOkvBCvwSVpiFpN5RiWNFDk1yBCfGoqv4kHSZ36v4h8lDlpSE/Gem3iI8+kqbG eI16ekmwBgSNAASnK6GObOFmVdXgQne9HZ9IulWogKLWgxrTwoiTCLtm3y07BcHX qeYgtoLfDCrJsbK9jl5jgYTy0MH7PeK9pwPaItmb5BiqZxfEbCVzzDobfDhfNyU= =dRx4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From rja.lists@gmail.com Sat Mar 9 08:46:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25EAE21F86A8 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 08:46:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.704 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.704 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.896, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0RxiL7qPsnE4 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 08:46:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qe0-f46.google.com (mail-qe0-f46.google.com [209.85.128.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B89E21F8652 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 08:46:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qe0-f46.google.com with SMTP id a11so1616278qen.33 for ; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 08:46:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date :message-id:to:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=YfL6Y9D848fXj82S0gzif+hYoMd41BNwpACANei1sgA=; b=Gpled4/wGy+gEIvyEtOuun++rRynNZR/m4TXjC9tDqrc19P9+SZXIWIGflNgt+DoQ1 wK97xYnNxRPPwKHc1IZRuOZFmDy0NscxzyE659UkF/dWVvTvbvQjw/qdZZgoXIvbWVJC P4E5luGYVO1NBFw12uOenKoGPcxORN725z12txZ1vrY9GLqZD727Yp++May4kXWtrk/0 jlQbxjg1uiRW3Z4S0POX8t3y84mAA5JC2eceX14Zdb9/N57sbGpgHoUf/uWy65H6Ofh3 Dvnv3p43TBP05ZiTHWfaEAbCW9F0R8UuQ7uUEGWuJApCgy9o8dc9nTZjHev9pSfIVYSn nopQ== X-Received: by 10.224.186.212 with SMTP id ct20mr9716336qab.3.1362847601913; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 08:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.30.20.12] (pool-96-255-149-117.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [96.255.149.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id he6sm15216357qab.1.2013.03.09.08.46.41 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Mar 2013 08:46:41 -0800 (PST) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 11:46:40 -0500 Message-Id: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> To: homenet@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) Subject: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2013 16:46:43 -0000 Consistent with previous comments by many others, and in my personal opinion, the following items ought to be out-of-scope for the HomeNet documents (and WG activities): * CPE devices that don't comply with IETF IPv6 specifications (e.g. a CPE device that only can cope with a /64 prefix is broken and hence out of scope for HomeNet WG.) * IPv6 deployments that are inconsistent with existing IETF and RIR guidance on IPv6 prefix management and guidance on IPv6 prefix allocations. (e.g. an IPv6 deployment that refuses to let an end user have a prefix shorter than /64 is broken and out-of-scope) Consistent with that IETF and RIR guidance, the HomeNet WG ought to document that users ought to be granted a prefix shorter than /64 and also that HomeNet equipment is required to comply with IETF IPv6 standards-track specifications. While these might seem obvious to folks who read RFCs regularly, they ought to be documented for the benefit of someone with good intentions who doesn't read RFCs regularly or often and might not understand the "obvious" prerequisites for the HomeNet document(s). The IETF can't prevent others from doing silly things, whether in products or deployments, but we can and should avoid spending WG time trying to build kludges around broken products and broken deployments. Yours, Ran Atkinson From mellon@fugue.com Sat Mar 9 08:57:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 888D721F869E for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 08:57:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1izDFr0c5wD7 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 08:57:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA0D21F85B3 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 08:57:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (50.sub-70-192-14.myvzw.com [70.192.14.50]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AA9742380CC6; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 11:57:36 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 11:57:32 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> References: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> To: RJ Atkinson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2013 16:57:38 -0000 I am a bit skeptical that we don't have to deal with the case where an = end-user buys a broken gateway and then plugs a homenet gateway into it. = The way we deal with it might be to recommend that the homegate, when = it gets no delegation, set up a captive portal to notify the user of the = problem, but to simply punt on it seems like a bad option. BTW, an example of a router that might be a decent homenet router is the = Almond router: = http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037429657/almond-80211ac-touchscreen-= wifi-router-smart-home?ref=3Demail It has an LCD display, so informing the user that they have set up a = broken network is pretty easy. But we probably ought to have a = document that walks homenet gateway implementors through the various = issues and options, even if we don't propose a solution that makes it = work. From andrewmcgr@gmail.com Sat Mar 9 11:11:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6BB721F8754 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 11:11:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d3DnH9B6xRcL for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 11:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x235.google.com (mail-la0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9462F21F8751 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 11:11:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f53.google.com with SMTP id fr10so2730960lab.12 for ; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 11:11:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=+r37dJznNFEroaSZRnrMthe7+UnF+H8G3sGIy5moKxQ=; b=GlA/WTDfIZo+8KkkvLmReynk+1vrCvjh8ldmIRFWWVuBR/0ars2hNW3P6Xh3i3nqsW 8793ATdXu66YuIVz6yEoORSH0f9gsljRcm8MQQUBEEc223Z6lG/f2PFqE17O/M+5vV8e O21q3TWqpxGp5yk8b3aKu56n7jiPC20PNO4sFm/hxPRsbcwcGfHiRaHbgVV77sj3tHvK o+hYwUVyFotRzebvexEWlhcIQKXWDfrALuk+QagnPQALWpUubi6y3R/JL/3J3XcLjyEd 0idsYP5ILXYDF4iNbI94SrtTNrHa9VfZIfAu/2VOLumk8Tk/zS3PFcZFn05ufJTWnsNo msGw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.26.65 with SMTP id j1mr2524305lbg.90.1362856288336; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 11:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.21.7 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 11:11:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> References: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 11:11:27 -0800 Message-ID: From: Andrew McGregor To: Ted Lemon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5555690f247c504d782b4fa Cc: homenet@ietf.org, RJ Atkinson Subject: Re: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2013 19:11:30 -0000 --bcaec5555690f247c504d782b4fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Also, we need to distinguish between a deployment that will hand out exactly one /64 (broken) and one that will hand out multiple /64s on request, just not necessarily contiguous (strange, but not so broken). On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > I am a bit skeptical that we don't have to deal with the case where an > end-user buys a broken gateway and then plugs a homenet gateway into it. > The way we deal with it might be to recommend that the homegate, when it > gets no delegation, set up a captive portal to notify the user of the > problem, but to simply punt on it seems like a bad option. > > BTW, an example of a router that might be a decent homenet router is the > Almond router: > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037429657/almond-80211ac-touchscreen-wifi-router-smart-home?ref=email > > It has an LCD display, so informing the user that they have set up a > broken network is pretty easy. But we probably ought to have a document > that walks homenet gateway implementors through the various issues and > options, even if we don't propose a solution that makes it work. > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > --bcaec5555690f247c504d782b4fa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Also, we need to distinguish between a deployment that wil= l hand out exactly one /64 (broken) and one that will hand out multiple /64= s on request, just not necessarily contiguous (strange, but not so broken).=


On Sat, Mar 9= , 2013 at 8:57 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
I am a bit skeptical that we don't have to deal with the case where an = end-user buys a broken gateway and then plugs a homenet gateway into it. = =A0 The way we deal with it might be to recommend that the homegate, when i= t gets no delegation, set up a captive portal to notify the user of the pro= blem, but to simply punt on it seems like a bad option.

BTW, an example of a router that might be a decent homenet router is the Al= mond router: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037429657/almond-80211ac-touchscreen= -wifi-router-smart-home?ref=3Demail

It has an LCD display, so informing the user that they have set up a broken= network is pretty easy. =A0 But we probably ought to have a document that = walks homenet gateway implementors through the various issues and options, = even if we don't propose a solution that makes it work.

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--bcaec5555690f247c504d782b4fa-- From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Sat Mar 9 17:07:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B6E21F8721 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 17:07:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.805 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.805 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.567, BAYES_20=-0.74, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MH0tmoi1rk7j for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 17:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from cable.comcast.com (copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [76.96.32.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354A221F871F for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 17:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ([24.40.56.115]) by copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id C7WM3M1.60114607; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 17:36:21 -0700 Received: from PACDCEXHUB05.cable.comcast.com (24.40.56.122) by PACDCEXHUB02.cable.comcast.com (24.40.56.115) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.318.1; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 20:07:27 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by pacdcexhub05.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3d40:bdea:7266:7f5a%18]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 20:07:27 -0500 From: "Brzozowski, John" Thread-Topic: Home networking lab/testing Thread-Index: AQHOHSuhVQGrY93oLE2HYcwBPtzshQ== Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 01:07:26 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.70] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <4D352E26AEB7074AAA0B32EB788ADEB1@cable.comcast.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 To: HOMENET , Brian Haberman , Ted Lemon , Ralph Droms Cc: Ray Bellis , "W. Townsley" , "Brzozowski, John" Subject: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 01:07:33 -0000 Folks, Sorry for the late notice. We have some lab/testing space available for home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes. I estimate that we will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab available until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes. Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks copied above as soon as possible. Mark, Ray, Anything to add? Thank you, John =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D John Jason Brzozowski Comcast Cable m) 484-962-0060 e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com o) 609-377-6594 w) www.comcast6.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From C.Grundemann@cablelabs.com Sat Mar 9 18:59:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B09F21F8454 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 18:59:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J0sYSLQ3cSmK for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 18:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A5F21F8431 for ; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 18:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2A2xqgD007946; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 19:59:52 -0700 Received: from exchange.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.19) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Sat, 09 Mar 2013 19:59:52 -0700 (MST) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) Received: from EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee]) by EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee%11]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 19:59:51 -0700 From: Chris Grundemann To: "Brzozowski, John" , HOMENET , Brian Haberman , Ted Lemon , Ralph Droms Thread-Topic: Home networking lab/testing Thread-Index: AQHOHSuhVQGrY93oLE2HYcwBPtzshZiePFMq Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 02:59:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Approved: ondar Cc: Ray Bellis , "W. Townsley" Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 02:59:56 -0000 Hi John, all, I am definitely interested in demoing/testing the HIPnet prototypes in this= lab whenever it's available. Please keep me in the loop as this progresses= . I'll be in Orlando tomorrow afternoon. Cheers, ~Chris --- my android sent this "Brzozowski, John" wrote: Folks, Sorry for the late notice. We have some lab/testing space available for home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes. I estimate that we will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab available until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes. Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks copied above as soon as possible. Mark, Ray, Anything to add? Thank you, John =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D John Jason Brzozowski Comcast Cable m) 484-962-0060 e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com o) 609-377-6594 w) www.comcast6.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From dave.taht@gmail.com Sun Mar 10 06:53:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B25321F8441 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 06:53:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IOyRr+1b4vyl for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 06:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22c.google.com (mail-ie0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3532721F845E for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 06:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f172.google.com with SMTP id c10so3785567ieb.3 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 06:53:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=+cfcPL9SH0DKVZ4l4gHYSMfaop9BzKiKgVz36EdWkJ0=; b=B2Rj9ztaelFYPupeSeR/VlCe2fU5Mv3/20t698X3crFpS6Em2QsmeR59nCjVKFHz1B MVaPBlR3XNHRC3vpFykMoPAi/kgH+y9uUPLDk+pukr3OsYhpkRSOd08rmgqyb5uKtdsv 7Es3P9jfr9dvl/Y10N1NFILDfY1yO+HRhNI6GZelzkDWEjBG8VFteCXyaPafuMjN8cK6 HcnhuX+/gjq8/TYA5FsgAKi7ws3zQQS95Ru2tGOHDfaNJxSJriRVqtYtxWh/gwQPU8sx OLzXpbDxuNuhnFFd2F6SDJnh0gkjgNvawEjZFVSpcmHHdlPDysi0CEFa2aQFSa0DU7S+ MkAA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.36.169 with SMTP id r9mr4675706igj.96.1362923596751; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 06:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.132.71 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 06:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.132.71 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 06:53:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 09:53:16 -0400 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Chris Grundemann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae934032bd72cf104d7926040 Cc: Brian Haberman , Ralph Droms , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , "Brzozowski, John" , "W. Townsley" , HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:53:18 -0000 --14dae934032bd72cf104d7926040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Oh cool. I had tried to port hip to cerowrt last year. Ran into a cookie negotiation problem on MIPS and filed a bug on it. I got 5 spare cerowrt boxes if anyone wants to fiddle with em... On Mar 9, 2013 10:00 PM, "Chris Grundemann" wrote: > Hi John, all, > > I am definitely interested in demoing/testing the HIPnet prototypes in > this lab whenever it's available. Please keep me in the loop as this > progresses. I'll be in Orlando tomorrow afternoon. > > Cheers, > ~Chris > > --- > my android sent this > > "Brzozowski, John" wrote: > > > Folks, > > Sorry for the late notice. We have some lab/testing space available for > home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes. I estimate that we > will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab available > until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes. > > Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks copied > above as soon as possible. > > Mark, Ray, > > Anything to add? > > Thank you, > > John > ========================================= > John Jason Brzozowski > Comcast Cable > m) 484-962-0060 > e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com > o) 609-377-6594 > w) www.comcast6.net > ========================================= > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > --14dae934032bd72cf104d7926040 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Oh cool. I had tried to port hip to cerowrt last year. Ran i= nto a cookie negotiation problem on MIPS and filed a bug on it.

I got 5 spare cerowrt boxes if anyone wants to fiddle with e= m...

On Mar 9, 2013 10:00 PM, "Chris Grundemann&= quot; <C.Grundemann@cablel= abs.com> wrote:
Hi John, all,

I am definitely interested in demoing/testing the HIPnet prototypes in this= lab whenever it's available. Please keep me in the loop as this progre= sses. I'll be in Orlando tomorrow afternoon.

Cheers,
~Chris

---
my android sent this

"Brzozowski, John" <John_Brzozowski@cable.comcast.com> wrote:


Folks,

Sorry for the late notice. =A0We have some lab/testing space available for<= br> home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes. =A0I estimate that we will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab available until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes.

Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks copied
above as soon as possible.

Mark, Ray,

Anything to add?

Thank you,

John
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
John Jason Brzozowski
Comcast Cable
m) 484-962-0060
e) john_brzozowski@cab= le.comcast.com
o) 609-377-6594
w) www.comcast6.net
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D





_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
--14dae934032bd72cf104d7926040-- From townsley@cisco.com Sun Mar 10 07:07:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D6D21F863C for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 07:07:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qd70XcguB-vR for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 07:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B9821F8620 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 07:07:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5529; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1362924443; x=1364134043; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=Qw3pFId11z0u4ORVk3Jiu612+uUPalnjXKCjbuCSrag=; b=MYMBk4v/ro5wXfc7fahso2sUmixckiBljpk7Q1LaVRydTfVQH4QYIsOG Cs2pOQ17dYxIf20m3QtrF/whr6Adc0w0gs0io288byPbNxoxcPBl+T1fY rlP9LkB29/6iuxYoXtYXpD1glcbiBV/c2/1C4lELa2kYeM6Co1XlExTN0 c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFANmSPFGtJV2Y/2dsb2JhbABAA7wRiC2BShZ0gicBAQQBAQFGJQsQAgEIBB4dBycLFBECBA4FCIgLDLs9jV2BACEMBAcJCIJOYQOIPI83j1eDCoFzNQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,817,1355097600"; d="scan'208,217";a="185816074" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Mar 2013 14:07:22 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com [173.37.183.75]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2AE7MPG028349 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:07:22 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.5.155]) by xhc-rcd-x01.cisco.com ([173.37.183.75]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 09:07:22 -0500 From: "Mark Townsley (townsley)" To: Dave Taht Thread-Topic: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing Thread-Index: AQHOHSuhVQGrY93oLE2HYcwBPtzshZiePFMqgAEKYQCAAAPuAA== Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:07:21 +0000 Message-ID: <513F0F03AC7672408B3046DC29D4D7E813601718@xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.21.167.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_513F0F03AC7672408B3046DC29D4D7E813601718xmbalnx02ciscoc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 07:25:53 -0700 Cc: Brian Haberman , Chris Grundemann , "Ralph Droms \(rdroms\)" , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , "Brzozowski, John" , HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:17:28 -0000 --_000_513F0F03AC7672408B3046DC29D4D7E813601718xmbalnx02ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mar 10, 2013, at 9:53 AM, Dave Taht wrote: Oh cool. I had tried to port hip to cerowrt last year. Ran into a cookie ne= gotiation problem on MIPS and filed a bug on i http://tools.ietf.org/wg/hip/ !=3D draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-01 - Mark I got 5 spare cerowrt boxes if anyone wants to fiddle with em... On Mar 9, 2013 10:00 PM, "Chris Grundemann" > wrote: Hi John, all, I am definitely interested in demoing/testing the HIPnet prototypes in this= lab whenever it's available. Please keep me in the loop as this progresses= . I'll be in Orlando tomorrow afternoon. Cheers, ~Chris --- my android sent this "Brzozowski, John" > wrote: Folks, Sorry for the late notice. We have some lab/testing space available for home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes. I estimate that we will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab available until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes. Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks copied above as soon as possible. Mark, Ray, Anything to add? Thank you, John =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D John Jason Brzozowski Comcast Cable m) 484-962-0060 e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com o) 609-377-6594 w) www.comcast6.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _______________________________________________ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --_000_513F0F03AC7672408B3046DC29D4D7E813601718xmbalnx02ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <009DE66997B9574EB337E4ED69CAA7D4@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mar 10, 2013, at 9:53 AM, Dave Taht wrote:

Oh cool. I had tried to port hip to cerowrt last year. Ran i= nto a cookie negotiation problem on MIPS and filed a bug on i

http://tools.ietf.org/wg/hip= / !=3D draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-01

- Mark

I got 5 spare cerowrt boxes if anyone wants to fiddle with e= m...

On Mar 9, 2013 10:00 PM, "Chris Grundemann&= quot; <C.Grundemann@cablel= abs.com> wrote:
Hi John, all,

I am definitely interested in demoing/testing the HIPnet prototypes in this= lab whenever it's available. Please keep me in the loop as this progresses= . I'll be in Orlando tomorrow afternoon.

Cheers,
~Chris

---
my android sent this

"Brzozowski, John" <John_Brzozowski@cable.comcast.com> wrote:


Folks,

Sorry for the late notice.  We have some lab/testing space available f= or
home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes.  I estimate that w= e
will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab available until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes.

Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks copied
above as soon as possible.

Mark, Ray,

Anything to add?

Thank you,

John
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
John Jason Brzozowski
Comcast Cable
m) 484-962-0060=
e) john_brzozowski@cab= le.comcast.com
o) 609-377-6594=
w) www.comcast6.net<= /a>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D





_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--_000_513F0F03AC7672408B3046DC29D4D7E813601718xmbalnx02ciscoc_-- From lorenzo@google.com Sun Mar 10 09:33:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EA1D21F8839 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 09:33:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yUUdflAWMjsg for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 09:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x232.google.com (mail-ob0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8587321F882F for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 09:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f178.google.com with SMTP id wd20so2582192obb.23 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 09:33:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=k5wpXgtKNY7O4woiB7z9K1AB/NTWm33Z/T+2JTlL118=; b=GsCaFd9wc9Lnf8DRX8KHnMZMqfAoKVbWmMnzm2uasp3178dQFY40Sfo7Iu2K4oCR87 3nZ6HhKor+4APs352q/bHygvrKW/xOX+IfCMfAuXgqHob597uuhGL3KZIy/w27X/9gU/ fftSotU1ysX8VgciKbS3aISbXq3iNOmpfrAB/svkdkFXsa2P2TLBhWEZ0JRUSd+OsA97 M8+TjFPvX2FekOdUGwSyRxGyaF/JEFzvCsJ5IZGLz+4lsjLzY/G4+fn47mcxzTX1k2mZ phFfyecBo0huBPsMl/Eh+Lcb+I92mSj8z6qgPoHm2R9yH/n+RhE/onLdV7GlcYW7Kyin GyUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=k5wpXgtKNY7O4woiB7z9K1AB/NTWm33Z/T+2JTlL118=; b=DhiB4WFvLiYGDLv8VEbXYqxGffRGwVS5BwiKaQKVIbey+e2yt346B7g93SzwBJ6f6a tMj+HtTlSdtJJ3Y7SNz0FWGzV9w8PFn8e7/1P5BTwiRzt+lJUtEYPFSLW+s152dq4+tD IgRgmlD23i7YZOD8+dnlXTPoXq9oFCSVJt4x0U0NbfSxS1lPFi/zxt5dPE7rVmKTAnTl 76q5uao2cVf8rcExqolMJn/1MLqp9R9jujRTBjSnGF8N4+iKB6JmL5+VKrN6z8IBb/73 4dcH63ATUHwJuH6CpHYfYE8uCoFOOUv8csURMdBfH5cIcYBKbXgi/t3Ki1e11R1OknTX 6H4Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.202.73 with SMTP id kg9mr6543598obc.95.1362933235133; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 09:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.227.70 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 09:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.227.70 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 09:33:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 09:33:55 -0700 Message-ID: From: Lorenzo Colitti To: "Brzozowski, John" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f6436fc55672604d7949fa3 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmSKnQNDJg31bobC9S5UcPOcizOdtNDkSFWiH1GtJwKuvAdGhFxyNstVjkzC6bkKSxcu4Htf0E1GRsO1p5+ZbTZZYVq8GpGkZ4LcHjf08urN8CGvIJdOoj1ba4U71vT9StifA//W4oM9emukO+chxppgdngyFx8JHBxMfhsndmoelZYvDouatdG+2gUmErUdkwGdZbi Cc: Brian Haberman , Ralph Droms , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , "W. Townsley" , homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 16:33:56 -0000 --e89a8f6436fc55672604d7949fa3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 9 Mar 2013 17:07, "Brzozowski, John" wrote: > Sorry for the late notice. We have some lab/testing space available for > home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes. I estimate that we > will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab available > until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes. > > Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks copied > above as soon as possible. Will there be working cable modems? Can Mark/Markus demo their source/destination routing stuff? --e89a8f6436fc55672604d7949fa3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 9 Mar 2013 17:07, "Brzozowski, John" <John_Brzozowski@cable.comcast.com> w= rote:
> Sorry for the late notice. =A0We have some lab/testing space available= for
> home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes. =A0I estimate that= we
> will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab availab= le
> until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes.
>
> Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks copie= d
> above as soon as possible.

Will there be working cable modems?

Can Mark/Markus demo their source/destination routing stuff?=

--e89a8f6436fc55672604d7949fa3-- From mark@townsley.net Sun Mar 10 10:47:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E764B21F867E for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 10:47:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.845 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.845 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FZGVVR7uOIYK for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 10:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-da0-x230.google.com (mail-da0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450E121F8639 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 10:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-da0-f48.google.com with SMTP id w4so567162dam.7 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 10:47:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=/u3RLeyKPKwYgrzmXpK6sd+omf062yFLm3em2dyzDkw=; b=cwcPDKObr6Y3o7l+d1ZrKMg/yVg68NbdHvCKTILmKu95taQpIIDEur+bUiDFzGGm/p fK3Zh9UaQKlhj/i6eJJPejNF4bmeFgWdsQ9YPhRODkEIkuKRjAjoNIbOhbe11fkRA8BW Zbu2KrThHrg1lPEZQ7V7/nXsDZIL7dw8X8q+NYMLboz6TQfNl6bX+kjT1Qbi2Xw/w1Tn MtlVgp92zqR0ympUG6dfd4MzKjC7VrMXc7NgL6wcdvDI/434mhL8KsZTs/8/84lVPcRu kPW23KPGUa9QUIWGhxs9BAlkAN4VLyyM7KoAB5vrLf+k/QF96Fk0XkvxlpXepsMzus7q aU/Q== X-Received: by 10.68.186.132 with SMTP id fk4mr21553834pbc.18.1362937651496; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 10:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.21.167.230] (128-107-239-233.cisco.com. [128.107.239.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id eh5sm16307001pbc.44.2013.03.10.10.47.26 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 10 Mar 2013 10:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FC70EB5C-C768-49DF-AFA2-E3DDEDFB222D" From: Mark Townsley In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:47:23 -0400 Message-Id: <309E5AE7-3529-4F31-84B7-88BAE556BC04@townsley.net> References: To: Lorenzo Colitti X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl7yAUe9KtOeQkyvaMYKi80uLqDuX5Iwf6rsyis14SSAkhgRCgCfNAXrpI5cboww+5FnevU Cc: Brian Haberman , Markus Stenberg , Ralph Droms , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , John Brzozowski , HOMENET Group Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:47:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FC70EB5C-C768-49DF-AFA2-E3DDEDFB222D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On Mar 10, 2013, at 12:33 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: >=20 > On 9 Mar 2013 17:07, "Brzozowski, John" = wrote: > > Sorry for the late notice. We have some lab/testing space available = for > > home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes. I estimate that = we > > will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab = available > > until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes. > > > > Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks = copied > > above as soon as possible. >=20 > Will there be working cable modems? >=20 > Can Mark/Markus demo their source/destination routing stuff >=20 Markus and Ole are here next to me, with gear, working away in a Villa. = Space certainly isn't a problem at this IETF!=20 There was no plan to setup in public this time. One reason is Jari is = too busy being a new IETF Chair this week, so chances of real interop = work among independent implementations is limited. Maybe you can talk = them into showing off later in the week.=20 Something else Jari won't be doing for us this time: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-homenet-9.pdf Would the group like to see a 5-10 minute update on the OSPF-based = implementation Markus has been working on during our meeting on = Thursday? - Mark --Apple-Mail=_FC70EB5C-C768-49DF-AFA2-E3DDEDFB222D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
On Mar 10, 2013, at 12:33 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:


On 9 Mar 2013 17:07, "Brzozowski, John" <John_Brzozowski@cable.comcast.com> wrote:
> Sorry for the late notice.  We have some lab/testing space available for
> home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes.  I estimate that we
> will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab available
> until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes.
>
> Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks copied
> above as soon as possible.

Will there be working cable modems?

Can Mark/Markus demo their source/destination routing stuff

Markus and Ole are here next to me, with gear, working away in a Villa. Space certainly isn't a problem at this IETF! 

There was no plan to setup in public this time. One reason is Jari is too busy being a new IETF Chair this week, so chances of real interop work among independent implementations is limited. Maybe you can talk them into showing off later in the week. 

Something else Jari won't be doing for us this time:


Would the group like to see a 5-10 minute update on the OSPF-based implementation Markus has been working on during our meeting on Thursday?

- Mark

--Apple-Mail=_FC70EB5C-C768-49DF-AFA2-E3DDEDFB222D-- From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Sun Mar 10 11:20:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9A521F8659 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:20:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.751, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ALimMJ8izHr7 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [69.241.43.119]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C26021F8600 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.115]) by pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 97wm3m1.45923632; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:07:48 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by PACDCEXHUB02.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::492e:3fa1:c2ad:e04e%13]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:20:50 -0400 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing Thread-Index: AQHOHa0QnU0NmgL8fk24/YPBZwY6c5ifTVwA Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:20:50 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.70] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Brian Haberman , Ralph Droms , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , "W. Townsley" , "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:20:57 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Sunday, March 10, 2013 11:33 AM To: John Jason Brzozowski Cc: HOMENET , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , Brian Haberman , Mark Townsley , Ralph Droms Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing > >On 9 Mar 2013 17:07, "Brzozowski, John" > wrote: >> Sorry for the late notice. We have some lab/testing space available for >> home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes. I estimate that we >> will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab available >> until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes. >> >> Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks copied >> above as soon as possible. >Will there be working cable modems? >Can Mark/Markus demo their source/destination routing stuff? [jjmb] just like Atlanta, yes. And yes if they wish to test they are welcome. > From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Sun Mar 10 11:22:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3DE721F867E for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.675, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kIPF62PDL2PH for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [69.241.43.119]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D3721F88A0 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.116]) by pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 97wm3m1.45923672; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:09:14 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by pacdcexhub03.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::5527:6d6b:29a7:f414%13]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:22:16 -0400 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: Mark Townsley , Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing Thread-Index: AQHOHa0QnU0NmgL8fk24/YPBZwY6c5ifdleA///XaQA= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:22:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <309E5AE7-3529-4F31-84B7-88BAE556BC04@townsley.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.70] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Brian Haberman , Markus Stenberg , Ralph Droms , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , HOMENET Group Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:22:21 -0000 I think it would be ideal to see the code working on a real broadband network. I recall the code had some issues last time. John -----Original Message----- From: Mark Townsley Date: Sunday, March 10, 2013 12:47 PM To: Lorenzo Colitti Cc: John Jason Brzozowski , HOMENET , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , Brian Haberman , Ralph Droms , Markus Stenberg Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing > >On Mar 10, 2013, at 12:33 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > > > >On 9 Mar 2013 17:07, "Brzozowski, John" > wrote: >> Sorry for the late notice. We have some lab/testing space available for >> home networking running code *before* Bits-n-Bytes. I estimate that we >> will be able to get start as early as Tuesday and make the lab available >> until the afternoon before Bits-n-Bytes. >> >> Anyone interested in participating should send mail to the folks copied >> above as soon as possible. >Will there be working cable modems? >Can Mark/Markus demo their source/destination routing stuff > > >Markus and Ole are here next to me, with gear, working away in a Villa. >Space certainly isn't a problem at this IETF! > > >There was no plan to setup in public this time. One reason is Jari is too >busy being a new IETF Chair this week, so chances of real interop work >among independent implementations is limited. Maybe you can talk them >into showing off later in the week. > > >Something else Jari won't be doing for us this time: > > >http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-homenet-9.pdf > > >Would the group like to see a 5-10 minute update on the OSPF-based >implementation Markus has been working on during our meeting on Thursday? > > >- Mark > > From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Sun Mar 10 11:35:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8ADB21F8916 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:35:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.553, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oz47Rfe250vH for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [76.96.32.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A428121F8915 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.114]) by copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id C7WM3M1.60148406; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 12:04:33 -0600 Received: from PACDCEXHUB05.cable.comcast.com (24.40.56.122) by PACDCEXHUB01.cable.comcast.com (24.40.56.114) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.318.1; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:35:42 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by pacdcexhub05.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3d40:bdea:7266:7f5a%18]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 14:35:41 -0400 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: Markus Stenberg Thread-Topic: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing Thread-Index: AQHOHa0QnU0NmgL8fk24/YPBZwY6c5ifdleA///XaQCAADPqgP//vx5Q Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:35:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: , <8BF0B415-CA6B-49F2-8F6A-DF7D1763B36C@iki.fi> In-Reply-To: <8BF0B415-CA6B-49F2-8F6A-DF7D1763B36C@iki.fi> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Brian Haberman , Mark Townsley , Ralph Droms , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , HOMENET Group , Lorenzo Colitti Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:35:49 -0000 We have much more time for setup this time assuming two days is adequate. It is your choice, let me know what you all decide. Thanks, John Markus Stenberg wrote: On 10.3.2013, at 14.22, "Brzozowski, John" wrote: > I think it would be ideal to see the code working on a real broadband > network. I recall the code had some issues last time. It was probably user error on either end of the topology, as -1 hours of se= tup time (negative value) wasn't enough for the BNB. BNB started 6pm, and y= ou provided us with something 7pm with bunch of interested people at our ta= ble looking at the (backup) network connectivity-enabled setup. I'm moderately interested in repeating the experiment, but considering publ= icity we got from -1 hour setup time effort, I'm not as keen as I could be. Cheers, -Markus From mellon@fugue.com Sun Mar 10 20:50:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0FC21F86BE for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 20:50:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V3jPXeHT0tA0 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 20:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D47821F85ED for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 20:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (202.sub-70-193-194.myvzw.com [70.193.194.202]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2E7212380C5D; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <513D286E.5050007@zytor.com> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:50:12 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> <513D286E.5050007@zytor.com> To: H. Peter Anvin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: homenet@ietf.org, RJ Atkinson , Andrew McGregor Subject: Re: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 03:50:18 -0000 On Mar 10, 2013, at 8:42 PM, H. Peter Anvin wrote: > Not even all that strange, after all it lets the ISP manage the = network > in a pretty straightforward way. The hard part about this is that = there > doesn't seem to be a good way in DHCPv6 to ask for "I need X networks = of > width Y" and have the upstream choose between a single narrower net or > multiple networks. Actually there is. Just send another IA_PD with a different IAID. If = the server is willing to give you another prefix, it will. This isn't = documented anywhere, but it's really the only way to do it=97the server = isn't allowed to generate new IAIDs. From hpa@zytor.com Sun Mar 10 17:42:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722DA21F88A9 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:42:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1kZtLRz0Q2-e for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.zytor.com (terminus.zytor.com [IPv6:2001:1868:205::10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C293321F88A3 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tazenda.hos.anvin.org ([IPv6:2601:9:3300:5b:e269:95ff:fe35:9f3c]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.zytor.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2B0gR7V002720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:42:27 -0700 Message-ID: <513D286E.5050007@zytor.com> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 17:42:22 -0700 From: "H. Peter Anvin" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130219 Thunderbird/17.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew McGregor References: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 05:12:13 -0700 Cc: RJ Atkinson , homenet@ietf.org, Ted Lemon Subject: Re: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 00:42:32 -0000 On 03/09/2013 11:11 AM, Andrew McGregor wrote: > Also, we need to distinguish between a deployment that will hand out > exactly one /64 (broken) and one that will hand out multiple /64s on > request, just not necessarily contiguous (strange, but not so broken). Not even all that strange, after all it lets the ISP manage the network in a pretty straightforward way. The hard part about this is that there doesn't seem to be a good way in DHCPv6 to ask for "I need X networks of width Y" and have the upstream choose between a single narrower net or multiple networks. Multiple prefixes returned in the DHCPv6-PD request is supposed to mean that those prefixes should be used in parallel, not that they should be portioned out. -hpa -- H. Peter Anvin, Intel Open Source Technology Center I work for Intel. I don't speak on their behalf. From hpa@zytor.com Sun Mar 10 22:32:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B898621F8623 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:32:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FAdoD1dX4caA for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.zytor.com (terminus.zytor.com [IPv6:2001:1868:205::10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58D1421F849A for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wld7.hos.anvin.org (c-71-202-109-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [71.202.109.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.zytor.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2B5VoNP008360 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:31:51 -0700 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> <513D286E.5050007@zytor.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "H. Peter Anvin" Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 22:31:47 -0700 To: Ted Lemon Message-ID: <51e70487-bee2-4bb8-bc84-6f227b7e9b67@email.android.com> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 05:12:14 -0700 Cc: homenet@ietf.org, RJ Atkinson , Andrew McGregor Subject: Re: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 05:32:05 -0000 That doesn't give the option to the server, though... the client has to ask for one or the other. Ted Lemon wrote: >On Mar 10, 2013, at 8:42 PM, H. Peter Anvin wrote: >> Not even all that strange, after all it lets the ISP manage the >network >> in a pretty straightforward way. The hard part about this is that >there >> doesn't seem to be a good way in DHCPv6 to ask for "I need X networks >of >> width Y" and have the upstream choose between a single narrower net >or >> multiple networks. > >Actually there is. Just send another IA_PD with a different IAID. >If the server is willing to give you another prefix, it will. This >isn't documented anywhere, but it's really the only way to do it—the >server isn't allowed to generate new IAIDs. -- Sent from my mobile phone. Please excuse brevity and lack of formatting. From mellon@fugue.com Mon Mar 11 05:45:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0C121F886E for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 05:45:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZuRm0telABKx for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 05:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB72721F8846 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 05:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (220.sub-70-193-202.myvzw.com [70.193.202.220]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E784F2380754; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 08:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <51e70487-bee2-4bb8-bc84-6f227b7e9b67@email.android.com> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 08:45:32 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <583E836C-D76C-44B3-BAFB-0F204138E96F@fugue.com> References: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> <513D286E.5050007@zytor.com> <51e70487-bee2-4bb8-bc84-6f227b7e9b67@email.android.com> To: H. Peter Anvin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: homenet@ietf.org, RJ Atkinson , Andrew McGregor Subject: Re: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 12:45:38 -0000 On Mar 11, 2013, at 1:31 AM, H. Peter Anvin wrote: > That doesn't give the option to the server, though... the client has = to ask for one or the other. What I would suggest is that if the client doesn't get a big enough = allocation, it request an additional allocation, rather than that it try = to anticipate what the server will return and prepare for the worst. From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Mon Mar 11 10:28:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61EB111E8190 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 10:28:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aV3rS25fd0v5 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 10:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047B111E8184 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 10:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2BHSFpA031179; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:28:15 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2BHSFpA031179 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363022896; bh=LtkomEF/8/rZ8xvOtlzO8PS4jtI=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=KVmKluwN/kEnf6BA7H8CFoy5C0cAkrE0K3xCmyw6R/ieiQwr1GgrvGGxcoHva086p VkYwannXJXAViY+KSLH37hF4ue5vOqwkFmexV9xd7BX08KdKaz3o86Fs3j/Qodmr5c Sxldyl3WRcQWlrUnhmCWc8+uHbfcByPC7YVO6Te0= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2AHSF0430643521Y0 ret-id none; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:28:16 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2BHS8xN022427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:28:09 GMT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_26782C8F-063D-47B8-9A46-4CF8510135C1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <309E5AE7-3529-4F31-84B7-88BAE556BC04@townsley.net> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:28:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <309E5AE7-3529-4F31-84B7-88BAE556BC04@townsley.net> To: Mark Townsley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2AHSF043064352100; tid=p2AHSF0430643521Y0; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=9:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2BHSFpA031179 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Cc: Brian Haberman , Markus Stenberg , Ralph Droms , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , John Brzozowski , HOMENET Group , Lorenzo Colitti Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:28:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_26782C8F-063D-47B8-9A46-4CF8510135C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On 10 Mar 2013, at 17:47, Mark Townsley wrote: > Markus and Ole are here next to me, with gear, working away in a = Villa. Space certainly isn't a problem at this IETF!=20 >=20 > There was no plan to setup in public this time. One reason is Jari is = too busy being a new IETF Chair this week, so chances of real interop = work among independent implementations is limited. Maybe you can talk = them into showing off later in the week.=20 >=20 > Something else Jari won't be doing for us this time: >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-homenet-9.pdf >=20 > Would the group like to see a 5-10 minute update on the OSPF-based = implementation Markus has been working on during our meeting on = Thursday? Hi Mark, I'd certainly like to hear a little about that, if there's space on the = agenda.=20 The demonstration at IETF85 was very promising, not only for the OSPF = autoconfiguration but also the src/dst routing, so it would be = interesting to hear what developments have been made since then. Tim --Apple-Mail=_26782C8F-063D-47B8-9A46-4CF8510135C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 mark@townsley.net> = wrote:

Markus and Ole are = here next to me, with gear, working away in a Villa. Space = certainly isn't a problem at this = IETF! 

There was no plan to setup in = public this time. One reason is Jari is too busy being a new IETF Chair = this week, so chances of real interop work among independent = implementations is limited. Maybe you can talk them into showing off = later in the week. 

Something else Jari = won't be doing for us this time:

http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-homenet-9.pdf

Would the group like to see a 5-10 minute update = on the OSPF-based implementation Markus has been working on during our = meeting on Thursday?

Hi = Mark,

I'd certainly like to hear a little about = that, if there's space on the agenda. 

The = demonstration at IETF85 was very promising, not only for the OSPF = autoconfiguration but also the src/dst routing, so it would be = interesting to hear what developments have been made since = then.

Tim

= --Apple-Mail=_26782C8F-063D-47B8-9A46-4CF8510135C1-- From acee.lindem@ericsson.com Mon Mar 11 15:46:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71C9421F8F28 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 15:46:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hhaoV2GrKzAL for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 15:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5149321F8E72 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 15:46:17 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-b7f0d6d00000097e-4c-513e5eb87e27 Received: from EUSAAHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.90]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 40.DD.02430.8BE5E315; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 23:46:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB101.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.118]) by EUSAAHC006.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.90]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 18:46:16 -0400 From: Acee Lindem To: Tim Chown , Mark Townsley Thread-Topic: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing Thread-Index: AQHOHSuhVQGrY93oLE2HYcwBPtzshZifYtOAgAAUh4CAAYzzgP//9EuA Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 22:46:15 +0000 Message-ID: <94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE470F67B4@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.5.121010 x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.134] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE470F67B4eusaamb101ericsso_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrDIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPlO6OOLtAgweLdCxm9vxjtHi/6BCL xfy2m+wW60+/Y7SYduABk8XeuStYLD51PWe1eLN0DrvF1u5Yi0N7nrM5cHk8f+zrMeX3RlaP v+tcPRZsKvVYsuQnk8fhrwtZPGYe/8LicWLuPCaP1wfms3rcnzaRKYArissmJTUnsyy1SN8u gSvjxBKZgk/GFS9fL2BqYFyk28XIwSEhYCLROIOvi5ETyBSTuHBvPVsXIxeHkMARRomL3/rZ IZzljBJfpy5jBKliE9CReP7oHzNIs4iAm8TkxVYgNcwCJ5kkbp5YxQgSFxYwknjzgwOkXETA WGLezbPMELabxL/rjWA2i4CqxOEprWwgNq+At0Tvw4nMIHM4BVoZJRqmXmcFSTACXfT91Bom EJtZQFzi1pP5TBCXCkgs2XOeGcIWlXj5+B9YvaiAnkTbsTPsEHFliSVP9rNA9OZLvHk9gwVi maDEyZlPWCYwis5CMnYWkrJZSMog4joSC3Z/YoOwtSWWLXzNDGOfOfAYqtdaYv3iRczIahYw cqxi5CgtTi3LTTcy2MQITAHHJNh0dzDueWl5iFGag0VJnDfI9UKAkEB6YklqdmpqQWpRfFFp TmrxIUYmDk6pBsY2Hp13JmIGyg1rLwptyjmxX2aOP/99zva/PlFKDM0CPz0mtwj+9TU/v5Zn aufHDVWaJ9SFbu3oWvlpvkPaM/4qu77+n6Lcmc8dFI+aZe2SstutVTnxxQzvCQJH1q3asaJb 0C//Z17zGX2x0OdTNGYnyM8+zD6ZfXrv7sW7Pb4J+V5oXcTW7qbEUpyRaKjFXFScCACdRbAL zwIAAA== Cc: Brian Haberman , Markus Stenberg , Ralph Droms , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , John Brzozowski , HOMENET Group , Lorenzo Colitti Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 22:46:18 -0000 --_000_94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE470F67B4eusaamb101ericsso_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to see this. Acee From: Tim Chown > Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 9:28 AM To: Mark Townsley > Cc: Brian Haberman >, Markus Stenberg = >, Ralph Droms >, Ray Bellis >, Ted Lemon >, John Brzozowski >, HOMENE= T Group >, Lorenzo Colitti > Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing On 10 Mar 2013, at 17:47, Mark Townsley > wrote: Markus and Ole are here next to me, with gear, working away in a Villa. Spa= ce certainly isn't a problem at this IETF! There was no plan to setup in public this time. One reason is Jari is too b= usy being a new IETF Chair this week, so chances of real interop work among= independent implementations is limited. Maybe you can talk them into showi= ng off later in the week. Something else Jari won't be doing for us this time: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-homenet-9.pdf Would the group like to see a 5-10 minute update on the OSPF-based implemen= tation Markus has been working on during our meeting on Thursday? Hi Mark, I'd certainly like to hear a little about that, if there's space on the age= nda. The demonstration at IETF85 was very promising, not only for the OSPF autoc= onfiguration but also the src/dst routing, so it would be interesting to he= ar what developments have been made since then. Tim --_000_94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE470F67B4eusaamb101ericsso_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <1C2BD3EB95824A4EBF5454FC12CD13CB@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would like to see this. 
Acee

From: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 9:28 A= M
To: Mark Townsley <mark@townsley.net>
Cc: Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>, Markus St= enberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi= >, Ralph Droms <rdroms@cisco.= com>, Ray Bellis <ray.bellis@nom= inet.org.uk>, Ted Lemon <ted.lemon@nominum.com>, John Brzozowski <John_Brzozowski@cable.comcast.com>, HOMENET Group <homenet@ietf.org= >, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@goo= gle.com>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Home network= ing lab/testing

On 10 Mar 2013, at 17:47, Mark Townsley <mark@townsley.net> wrote:

Markus and Ole are here next to me, with gear, working away in a Villa= . Space certainly isn't a problem at this IETF! 

There was no plan to setup in public this time. One reason is Jari is = too busy being a new IETF Chair this week, so chances of real interop work = among independent implementations is limited. Maybe you can talk them into = showing off later in the week. 

Something else Jari won't be doing for us this time:


Would the group like to see a 5-10 minute update on the OSPF-based imp= lementation Markus has been working on during our meeting on Thursday?

Hi Mark,

I'd certainly like to hear a little about that, if there's space on th= e agenda. 

The demonstration at IETF85 was very promising, not only for the OSPF = autoconfiguration but also the src/dst routing, so it would be interesting = to hear what developments have been made since then.

Tim

 --_000_94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE470F67B4eusaamb101ericsso_-- From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Mon Mar 11 16:40:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A258E11E813F for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 16:40:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.072 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.072 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.159, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4X44h9oJV-7J for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 16:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [76.96.32.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DBA11E812A for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 16:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.116]) by copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id C7WM3M1.60347065; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 17:09:25 -0600 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by pacdcexhub03.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::5527:6d6b:29a7:f414%13]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Mon, 11 Mar 2013 19:40:38 -0400 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Home networking lab/testing READY! Thread-Index: Ac4esdS5/o6DcV8vTYSM6YKS9opa1w== Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 23:40:36 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <8546013457BB854ABA2EE2F792C06FD9@cable.comcast.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 23:40:47 -0000 Rm9sa3MsCgpXZSBhcmUgcmVhZHkgdG8gc3RhcnQgdGVzdGluZyB0b21vcnJvdy4gSSBrbm93IG9m IHRocmVlIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyB0aGF0IGFyZSBlUm91dGVyIG9yIEhJUE5FVC4KClRoZXJl IGlzIHJvb20gZm9yIG1vcmUgc28gcGxlYXNlIGNvbnRhY3QgbWUgb2ZmbGluZSBpZiB5b3UgYXJl IGludGVyZXN0ZWQuCgpXZSAgYmUgb3BlbiB1cCB0byBhbmQgaW5jbHVkaW5nIEJpdHMtbi1CeXRl cyBvbiBUaHVyc2RheSBldmVuaW5nLgoKRG9vcnMgb3BlbiBhdCA5YW0gRVQgYW5kIHdpbGwgc3Rh eSBvcGVuIHVudGlsIDVwbSBFVCAob3IgbGF0ZXIgdXBvbiByZXF1ZXN0KS4gIAoKVGhhbmtzLAoK Sm9obg== From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Tue Mar 12 04:57:17 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440DD21F8A08 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 04:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wuHjF8c6ZxO2 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 04:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [69.241.43.119]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC86621F89CB for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 04:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.114]) by pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 97wm3m1.46078539; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 07:44:06 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXHUB05.cable.comcast.com (24.40.56.122) by PACDCEXHUB01.cable.comcast.com (24.40.56.114) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.318.1; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 07:57:13 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by pacdcexhub05.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3d40:bdea:7266:7f5a%18]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 07:57:12 -0400 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! Thread-Index: Ac4esdS5/o6DcV8vTYSM6YKS9opa1wAZuU8A Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 11:57:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.71] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Tuska, Christopher" Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 11:57:17 -0000 Sorry forgot to mention we are in Grand Sierra D. Upon arriving please see Chris Tuska from Comcast, copied above. John -----Original Message----- From: , John Jason Brzozowski Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:40 PM To: HOMENET Subject: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! >Folks, > >We are ready to start testing tomorrow. I know of three implementations >that are eRouter or HIPNET. > >There is room for more so please contact me offline if you are interested. > >We be open up to and including Bits-n-Bytes on Thursday evening. > >Doors open at 9am ET and will stay open until 5pm ET (or later upon >request). =20 > >Thanks, > >John >_______________________________________________ >homenet mailing list >homenet@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Tue Mar 12 05:50:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F9921F88C0 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 05:50:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.914 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.914 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j7T51PMyw0xW for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 05:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [69.241.43.119]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D937121F86E3 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 05:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.115]) by pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 97wm3m1.46083641; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 08:36:37 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by PACDCEXHUB02.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::492e:3fa1:c2ad:e04e%13]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 08:49:43 -0400 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: Acee Lindem , Tim Chown , Mark Townsley Thread-Topic: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing Thread-Index: AQHOHSuhnU0NmgL8fk24/YPBZwY6c5ifYtOAgAAUh4CAAYzzgP//9EuAgAENLwA= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:49:43 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE470F67B4@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.71] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <05EE3689E699744B9162CE291BFACFDC@cable.comcast.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Brian Haberman , Markus Stenberg , Ralph Droms , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , HOMENET Group , Lorenzo Colitti Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 12:50:29 -0000 You are welcome to stop by. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D John Jason Brzozowski Comcast Cable m) 484-962-0060 e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com o) 609-377-6594 w) www.comcast6.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Acee Lindem Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 6:46 PM To: Tim Chown , Mark Townsley Cc: Brian Haberman , Markus Stenberg , Ralph Droms , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , John Jason Brzozowski , HOMENET , Lorenzo Colitti Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing >I would like to see this. >Acee > > >From: Tim Chown >Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 9:28 AM >To: Mark Townsley >Cc: Brian Haberman , Markus Stenberg >, Ralph Droms , > Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon >, John Brzozowski >, > HOMENET Group , Lorenzo Colitti >Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing > > > >>On 10 Mar 2013, at 17:47, Mark Townsley wrote: >> >> >>Markus and Ole are here next to me, with gear, working away in a Villa. >>Space certainly isn't a problem at this IETF! >> >> >>There was no plan to setup in public this time. One reason is Jari is >>too busy being a new IETF Chair this week, so chances of real interop >>work among independent implementations is limited. Maybe you can talk >>them into showing off later in the week. >> >> >>Something else Jari won't be doing for us this time: >> >> >>http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-homenet-9.pdf >> >> >>Would the group like to see a 5-10 minute update on the OSPF-based >>implementation Markus has been working on during our meeting on Thursday? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Hi Mark, >> >> >>I'd certainly like to hear a little about that, if there's space on the >>agenda.=20 >> >> >>The demonstration at IETF85 was very promising, not only for the OSPF >>autoconfiguration but also the src/dst routing, so it would be >>interesting to hear what developments have been made since then. >> >> >>Tim >> >> >> From christopher_tuska@cable.comcast.com Tue Mar 12 06:31:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D6E21F8AC3 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 06:31:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=x tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BTvXCp8wv4nM for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 06:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [76.96.32.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3E721F880F for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 06:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([147.191.109.25]) by copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id C7WM3M1.60407787; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 07:00:04 -0600 Received: from COPDCEXMB09.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.246]) by copdcexhub05.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::a1f9:b458:a4d:4871%16]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 06:31:19 -0700 From: "Tuska, Christopher" To: "Brzozowski, John" , Acee Lindem , Tim Chown , Mark Townsley Thread-Topic: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing Thread-Index: AQHOHSuhVQGrY93oLE2HYcwBPtzshZifhFqAgAAUh4CAAYzzgIAAWOOAgADrqYD//6LxMA== Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:31:18 +0000 Message-ID: <4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A545877E5@COPDCEXMB09.cable.comcast.com> References: <94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE470F67B4@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [76.96.69.4] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A545877E5COPDCEXMB09cabl_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Brian Haberman , Markus Stenberg , Ralph Droms , Ray Bellis , Ted Lemon , HOMENET Group , Lorenzo Colitti Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:31:39 -0000 --_004_4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A545877E5COPDCEXMB09cabl_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A545877E5COPDCEXMB09cabl_" --_000_4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A545877E5COPDCEXMB09cabl_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is a picture of our location: [cid:image002.jpg@01CE1EF3.71F968E0] Thank You, Chris Tuska Senior Network Engineer, Comcast National CMTS Operations \ IPv6 Project /phone/ 720.267.7511 /cell/ 720.560.6306 -----Original Message----- From: homenet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Brzozowski, John Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:50 AM To: Acee Lindem; Tim Chown; Mark Townsley Cc: Brian Haberman; Markus Stenberg; Ralph Droms; Ray Bellis; Ted Lemon; HO= MENET Group; Lorenzo Colitti Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing You are welcome to stop by. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D John Jason Brzozowski Comcast Cable m) 484-962-0060 e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com o) 609-377-6594 w) www.comcast6.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Acee Lindem > Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 6:46 PM To: Tim Chown >, Mark Towns= ley > Cc: Brian Haberman >, Markus Stenberg = >, Ralph Droms >, Ray Bellis >, Ted Lemon >, John Jason Brzozowski >, = HOMENET >, Lorenzo Colitti > Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing >I would like to see this. >Acee > > >From: Tim Chown > >Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 9:28 AM >To: Mark Townsley > >Cc: Brian Haberman >, Markus Stenberg >>, Ralph Droms >, Ray Bellis >>, Ted Lemon <= ted.lemon@nominum.com>, John >Brzozowski >, > HOMENET Group >, Lorenzo Colitt= i > >Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing > > > >>On 10 Mar 2013, at 17:47, Mark Townsley > wrote: >> >> >>Markus and Ole are here next to me, with gear, working away in a Villa. >>Space certainly isn't a problem at this IETF! >> >> >>There was no plan to setup in public this time. One reason is Jari is >>too busy being a new IETF Chair this week, so chances of real interop >>work among independent implementations is limited. Maybe you can talk >>them into showing off later in the week. >> >> >>Something else Jari won't be doing for us this time: >> >> >>http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-homenet-9.pdf >> >> >>Would the group like to see a 5-10 minute update on the OSPF-based >>implementation Markus has been working on during our meeting on Thursday? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Hi Mark, >> >> >>I'd certainly like to hear a little about that, if there's space on >>the agenda. >> >> >>The demonstration at IETF85 was very promising, not only for the OSPF >>autoconfiguration but also the src/dst routing, so it would be >>interesting to hear what developments have been made since then. >> >> >>Tim >> >> >> _______________________________________________ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --_000_4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A545877E5COPDCEXMB09cabl_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here is a picture of our location:

 

 

Thank You,

 

Chris Tuska

Senior Network Engineer, Comcast

National CMTS Operations \ IPv6 Project

/phone/ 720.267.7511

/cell/ 720.560.6306

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: homenet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Brzozowski, John
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:50 AM
To: Acee Lindem; Tim Chown; Mark Townsley
Cc: Brian Haberman; Markus Stenberg; Ralph Droms; Ray Bellis; Ted Lemon; HO= MENET Group; Lorenzo Colitti
Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing

 

You are welcome to stop by.

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

John Jason Brzozowski

Comcast Cable

m) 484-962-0060

e) john_brzozowsk= i@cable.comcast.com

o) 609-377-6594

w) www.comcast6.net

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Acee Lindem <acee= .lindem@ericsson.com>

Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 6:46 PM

To: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton= .ac.uk>, Mark Townsley <mark@townsley.net<= /span>>

Cc: Brian Haberman <bri= an@innovationslab.net>, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>, Ralph Droms <rdroms@cisco.com>, Ray Bellis= <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>, Jo= hn Jason Brzozowski <john_brzozowski@cab= le.comcast.com>, HOMENET <homenet@ietf.org>, Lorenzo Colitt= i <lorenzo@google.com>

Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testin= g

 

>I would like to see this.

>Acee

> 

> 

>From: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs= .soton.ac.uk>

>Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 9:28 AM

>To: Mark Townsley <mark@to= wnsley.net>

>Cc: Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>, Markus Stenberg

><markus.stenberg@iki.= fi>, Ralph Droms <rdroms@cisco.com>,  Ray Bellis

><ray.bellis@nomine= t.org.uk>, Ted Lemon <ted.lemon@nominu= m.com>, John

>Brzozowski <John_Brzozowski@cable.comcast.com>,

> HOMENET Group <homenet@iet= f.org>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.c= om>

>Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/te= sting

> 

> 

> 

>>On 10 Mar 2013, at 17:47, Mark Townsley &= lt;mark@townsley.net> wrote:

>> 

>> 

>>Markus and Ole are here next to me, with = gear, working away in a Villa.

>>Space certainly isn't a problem at this I= ETF!

>> 

>> 

>>There was no plan to setup in public this= time. One reason is Jari is

>>too busy being a new IETF Chair this week= , so chances of real interop

>>work among independent implementations is= limited. Maybe you can talk

>>them into showing off later in the week.<= o:p>

>> 

>> 

>>Something else Jari won't be doing for us= this time:

>> 

>> 

>>http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-homenet= -9.pdf

>> 

>> 

>>Would the group like to see a 5-10 minute= update on the OSPF-based

>>implementation Markus has been working on= during our meeting on Thursday?

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>Hi Mark,

>> 

>> 

>>I'd certainly like to hear a little about= that, if there's space on

>>the agenda.

>> 

>> 

>>The demonstration at IETF85 was very prom= ising, not only for the OSPF

>>autoconfiguration but also the src/dst ro= uting, so it would be

>>interesting to hear what developments hav= e been made since then.

>> 

>> 

>>Tim

>> 

>> 

>> 

 

_______________________________________________

homenet mailing list

homenet@ietf.org=

https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

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RRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFF FABRRRQAUUUUAf/Z --_004_4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A545877E5COPDCEXMB09cabl_-- From ek@google.com Tue Mar 12 15:14:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A5E411E8160 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:14:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.299, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W0jdvuFVJq7U for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-f42.google.com (mail-oa0-f42.google.com [209.85.219.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C4FB11E8161 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id i18so413992oag.1 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:14:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-type; bh=JRRsDB0CmGzQZ3Kn3Krfjplcv/4D0Dkd/Aa/qTauddg=; b=laC2crb5RMgBxHkVR+5u2jY5PaeQbqhmDhTxgqtAmCipGTtFdIUJNYKCscSi4JeboW 4kCEj7b6n1u31Vii400gei2Qaa8gl9rWFwTHQ7TXEZ0kbl2cZH5CMRDaylFrq7jLZqGK 99qXEZr1kXY6CI+wvG2Y+LDkt7HgU/H2+kZMcmPV27vzuLEkVFKqVXTzS2eRLS5avnRU ajKFt2p2qWZ5p2jRygYII3VWg47xa2PgQjfmB0Rc1qlArSbGxWuKucY92mh+lR1ig8YZ QmhH/9+qniqRqBEZ7z/p5OzRNLXEMAjA+D1bAtu3gfjo+Mji/T0egTQk1iO0HUrUEqdV cQ2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=JRRsDB0CmGzQZ3Kn3Krfjplcv/4D0Dkd/Aa/qTauddg=; b=nQ3B1M0QZNlBxB/OsnC9Kgtcwabs67+tEtfpdOeFt/RLp6E2sK2ssmlHH92A04cOcJ 0fAkdmkMp8mDeGXtc2cH9QzLJE/hccK9N1cTcOpulDeLjbOpFYfisn8/Qzue8MCpQ/2S fQKsmoRsA5VdA0k2mUVDY4INGdmUe1wbNk+1nIv3K7EcuGUVo4+x571BVVewqLM/8Jtv weVr0MCeJCd5cvslrkCO3pMN3JyOnXuwcWiMNCJYT5isTM/EJCFcqESxmM95V4iFdpsO oHD7uPajUg8UbMh+4ZwUdYceavT9n9ieTG6G6uXPm48LfHhE4t7h7TvPV7gcMPjgS6A3 HV3A== X-Received: by 10.60.9.1 with SMTP id v1mr13409924oea.130.1363126460729; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:14:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.50.227 with HTTP; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:14:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130312181544.29345.91217.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20130312181544.29345.91217.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Erik Kline Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:14:00 -0400 Message-ID: To: "" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb2031879e76204d7c19c16 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkGJ3suMeJ/1MlgBZcBc2BKEJxJnifLIdleC2jfOIQl7kB45wpu84Fs3FlEPsD9eDMrKKSHyECx77/LkWTJdX2p0PVpU7H9gzT1FSX3e5KcD3c/8RUUAiN+Dnvc0iT+jtOIFmOVwhCoK1Pq3uBQW5ZT08xB5qmm9kuZhysYnqiYbijMR1P9RECG+FStJk+sYkFccRY6 Subject: [homenet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter-00.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 22:14:24 -0000 --e89a8fb2031879e76204d7c19c16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 At long last, I took a few notes from the last IETF (but undoubtedly not everything), reworked a few things, and changed the document to have -homenet- in the title. Apologies, -erik ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: 12 March 2013 14:15 Subject: New Version Notification for draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter-00.txt To: ek@google.com A new version of I-D, draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Erik Kline and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter Revision: 00 Title: Default Border Definition Creation date: 2013-03-12 Group: Individual Submission Number of pages: 12 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter-00.txt Status: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter-00 Abstract: Automatic, simple identification of when traffic is crossing a perimeter is highly desirable for a variety of home network uses. This document describes how to use homenet routing protocol adjacencies as the primary signal of a common administrative domain (e.g. "the home"). Classification of interfaces et cetera as internal or external follow from this, as do various policy and implementation implications. One fundamental implication is that the active definition of a home network's interior is no more secure than its policy for forming homenet routing protocol adjacencies. The IETF Secretariat --e89a8fb2031879e76204d7c19c16 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At long last, I took a few notes from the last IETF (but u= ndoubtedly not everything), reworked a few things, and changed the document= to have -homenet- in the title.

Apologies,
-e= rik

---------- Forwarded message ----------
F= rom: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
D= ate: 12 March 2013 14:15
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter= -00.txt
To: ek@google.com


A new version of I-D, draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Erik Kline and posted to the
IETF repository.

Filename: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter<= br> Revision: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Default Border Definition
Creation date: =C2=A0 2013-03-12
Group: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Number of pages: 12
URL: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kline-homenet-default-per= imeter-00.txt
Status: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://d= atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter
Htmlized: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-kline-homenet-default-perimeter-00


Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Automatic, simple identification of when traffic is crossing a=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0perimeter is highly desirable for a variety of home network us= es.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes how to use homenet routing protocol =C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacencies as the primary signal of a common administrative d= omain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(e.g. "the home"). =C2=A0Classification of interface= s et cetera as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0internal or external follow from this, as do various policy an= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation implications. =C2=A0One fundamental implication= is that the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0active definition of a home network's interior is no more = secure than
=C2=A0 =C2=A0its policy for forming homenet routing protocol adjacencies.



The IETF Secretariat


--e89a8fb2031879e76204d7c19c16-- From mellon@fugue.com Tue Mar 12 20:33:04 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A27B11E8131 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:33:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2zOAjlxDQm7O for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784E811E80D1 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 20:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (250.sub-70-193-194.myvzw.com [70.193.194.250]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D40992380625; Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:32:51 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0BE087D3-289F-4344-9F51-95E0CA9E7132@fugue.com> References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> To: "homenet@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: Michael Thomas Subject: Re: [homenet] last call comments on section 3.7 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 03:33:04 -0000 I'm curious as to why Michael's comments garnered only a single reply=97I = think he raised some good points. I've been reviewing the architecture = document, and it's a hard read. I think it's actually pretty good in = principle, and I know that part of the reason it's so heavy is because = the authors are trying to represent a plurality of opinions, including = my own. But in a lot of cases I think it would improve the document to pare it = fairly heavily=97to try to tease out the essence of what everyone wants, = and then leave out the details of how they propose to get it. The = architecture should be what we want, not how we propose to get it. We = don't all agree on how to get it, and perhaps those questions should be = addressed separately. I can offer more detailed comments, but it would be a pretty big = message, which nobody would feel enthusiastic about reading. From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Wed Mar 13 06:21:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1D121F8A43 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 06:21:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.858 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.858 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.961, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vHcs8XG8o8yU for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 06:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [69.241.43.119]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B1E21F845D for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 06:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.114]) by pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 97wm3m1.46217814; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:08:29 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by PACDCEXHUB01.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::84e8:95f3:f13b:169e%12]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:21:38 -0400 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! Thread-Index: Ac4esdS5/o6DcV8vTYSM6YKS9opa1wAZuU8AADU9pYA= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:21:37 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.71] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <25BE478E146AFB418101E6C1ECD41455@cable.comcast.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Tuska, Christopher" Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:21:42 -0000 Folks, Day 2 has begun, we are open again from 9am to 5pm, or later upon request. We are again in Grand Sierra D. So far we have three implementations up and running, one HIPNET, one eRouter, and a buffer bloat implementation. We are planning on adding another implementation today. All are welcome to stop by and check us out. Thanks, John =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D John Jason Brzozowski Comcast Cable m) 484-962-0060 e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com o) 609-377-6594 w) www.comcast6.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: , John Jason Brzozowski Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:57 AM To: HOMENET Cc: Christopher Tuska Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! >Sorry forgot to mention we are in Grand Sierra D. > > >Upon arriving please see Chris Tuska from Comcast, copied above. > >John >-----Original Message----- >From: , John Jason Brzozowski > >Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:40 PM >To: HOMENET >Subject: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! > >>Folks, >> >>We are ready to start testing tomorrow. I know of three implementations >>that are eRouter or HIPNET. >> >>There is room for more so please contact me offline if you are >>interested. >> >>We be open up to and including Bits-n-Bytes on Thursday evening. >> >>Doors open at 9am ET and will stay open until 5pm ET (or later upon >>request). =20 >> >>Thanks, >> >>John >>_______________________________________________ >>homenet mailing list >>homenet@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 06:23:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 167A521F8D3A for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 06:23:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.213, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SbTSDW23yXTR for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 06:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868CE21F8D2E for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 06:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DDNHI0031807 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:23:17 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DDNHI0031807 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363180998; bh=ZXjh6PD1RkemrIFMCDGkRV+T/5w=; h=From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=x5o5r2gs/X8ONvOqjd+msX3wOcvWGscvqLia1HzgUJAXfIlISo4XMPRiOt+AstP// eLFhmLkoIFrAFkCy7SLa6dqaeyrQeL5XbxSLViNQL7PBo5Gp91XzgwvxrpTs4zWCXN fqP+u6lFziIu+JvUsIiGNUd+0kGFNdJZDQE1jdSc= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CDNH04306061092G ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:23:17 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DDMpKC014012 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:22:52 GMT From: Tim Chown Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9DD2989D-2646-4AF7-9969-4B593CD1F9B4" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:22:51 +0000 References: <72EAE15B-BB40-42A6-9231-58B5880AE62E@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CDNH043060610900; tid=p2CDNH04306061092G; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DDNHI0031807 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] homenet-arch review (delegated ISP prefixes) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:23:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9DD2989D-2646-4AF7-9969-4B593CD1F9B4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks again for the comments Jon. All noted and I agree with Mark's = response. Tim On 6 Mar 2013, at 04:34, Mark Townsley wrote: >=20 > Replying, changing the very misleading subject.=20 >=20 > Thanks for the comments, please see inline. >=20 > On Mar 1, 2013, at 2:45 AM, Brzozowski, John wrote: >=20 >> Tim, >>=20 >>=20 >> Per your request below here are some comments pertaining to the = section >> you mention below. >>=20 >> * The section seems to hint at two extremes stable on one end and = very >> dynamic i.e. at each CER reboot. I think it is important to note = that >> there is middle ground here and that providers typically have good = reason >> for requiring prefix changes, largely related to network capacity >> management. It is not clear to me if this need to be called out in = the >> text, however, I thought you should know. >> * Agreed regarding /64 subnet lengths >> * This section does not differentiate between a residential service = and a >> commercial or SOHO service. Is this outlined elsewhere in the draft? >> Does it need to be? >=20 > That's more of a charter question. While we should aim to create = technology that is generally useful outside the home, the defined scope = is the home. Among other things, this should help underscore the = auto-configuration requirement as the further you dip into SOHO = territory, the more likelihood that there is an administrator of some = sort (whether it be a remote worker's IT department or otherwise) = becomes more and more prevalent.=20 >=20 > While the "SO" absolutely must be able to work with our "HO" (what = looks to us like a special type of additional ISP, if you will), we stop = short of, say, trying to define the VPN router's security policy or = whether it should use IPsec Tunnel mode or GRE with Transport Mode or = SSL or...=20 >=20 > (Personally, I would like to see homenet's technology have impact = outside the home - we're tackling some important problems IPv6 has had = for a while.)=20 >=20 >> * Note - some devices today can only utilize a /64 and nothing more = these >> would not break. >=20 > Good point, and this brings up a general issue of working with = existing non-homenet routers that support IPv6. The document should = probably highlight this.=20 >=20 >> * No NPTv6 please >=20 > Section 2.4 >=20 > "As such, neither IPv6 NAT or NPTv6 is recommended for use in the = homenet architecture." >=20 >> * ULAs support could be introduced at a later date >=20 > Why wait? >=20 >> * Agreed regarding bridging avoidance >> * How is "relatively stable prefix" defined? >=20 > Relative to changing the prefix whenever the CER is reset: >=20 > "Some ISPs may offer relatively stable prefixes, while others may = change the prefix whenever the CER is reset." >=20 > Feel free to offer up a better description. I think the salient point = ends up being that the home network is going to have to be resilient to = prefix change.=20 >=20 >=20 >> * Good text regarding PIA >> * Regarding renumbering also note that operators take precautions to >> ensure this is seamless as well including lease time lowering in = advance >> of the renumbering event. We have been doing this for years. >=20 > Consistent with RFC 4912 or not? (because that is what we are pointing = to right now) >=20 >> * Forced renumbering for privacy sounds unfortunate but based on = various >> emails I have seen lately this seems to be something that must be >> supported. >=20 > Yes, sadly.=20 >=20 >> * Agreed that service discovery is essential >>=20 >> I hope these comments are useful, I recognize I was not overly = verbose. I >> hope this is a feature not a bug. Please let know if you wish to = discuss >> further. >=20 > Thank you for the review and input, John. >=20 > - Mark >=20 >>=20 >> John >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tim Chown >> Date: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:56 AM >> To: "v6ops@ietf.org" >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-shishio-v6ops-dpvt >>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 26 Feb 2013, at 14:07, "Brzozowski, John" >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> [jjmb] incorrect I have both, just stating that I have both. = Apologies if >>> I was not clear. I also have a good # of home routers actively = using IPv6 >>> enabled broadband today, ~3%. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Congratulations, btw. That must be a large number when converted to = real >>> customers :) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The homenet architecture assumes a CPE rather than a single host. It >>> discusses ISP allocations in section 3.4.1 of >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07. As that text >>> is in WGLC, any comments on that section would be welcome = (preferably on >>> the homenet list). >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Tim >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> _______________________________________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_9DD2989D-2646-4AF7-9969-4B593CD1F9B4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii mark@townsley.net> = wrote:

Tim,


Per your request below here are some = comments pertaining to the section
you mention below.

* The = section seems to hint at two extremes stable on one end and = very
dynamic i.e. at each CER reboot.  I think it is important = to note that
there is middle ground here and that providers typically = have good reason
for requiring prefix changes, largely related to = network capacity
management.  It is not clear to me if this need = to be called out in the
text, however, I thought you should = know.
* Agreed regarding /64 = subnet lengths
* This section does = not differentiate between a residential service and a
commercial or = SOHO service.  Is this outlined elsewhere in the draft?
Does it = need to be?

That's more of a charter = question. While we should aim to create technology that is generally = useful outside the home, the defined scope is the home. Among other = things, this should help underscore the auto-configuration requirement = as the further you dip into SOHO territory, the more likelihood that = there is an administrator of some sort (whether it be a remote worker's = IT department or otherwise) becomes more and more = prevalent. 

While the "SO" absolutely must = be able to work with our "HO" (what looks to us like a special type of = additional ISP, if you will), we stop short of, say, trying to define = the VPN router's security policy or whether it should use IPsec Tunnel = mode or GRE with Transport Mode or SSL = or... 

(Personally, I would like to see = homenet's technology have impact outside the home - we're tackling some = important problems IPv6 has had for a while.) 

* Note - some devices today can only utilize a /64 and = nothing more these
would not = break.

Good point, and this brings = up a general issue of working with existing non-homenet routers that = support IPv6. The document should probably highlight = this. 

* No NPTv6 = please

Section = 2.4

"As = such, neither IPv6 NAT or NPTv6 is recommended for use in the homenet = architecture."

* ULAs support = could be introduced at a later = date

Why wait?

* Agreed regarding bridging avoidance
* How is = "relatively stable prefix" = defined?

Relative to changing the = prefix whenever the CER is reset:

"Some =
ISPs may offer relatively stable prefixes, while others may change the =
prefix whenever the CER is reset."

Feel free to = offer up a better description. I think the salient point ends up being = that the home network is going to have to be resilient to prefix = change. 


* = Good text regarding PIA
* Regarding renumbering also note that = operators take precautions to
ensure this is seamless as well = including lease time lowering in advance
of the renumbering event. =  We have been doing this for = years.

Consistent with RFC 4912 or = not? (because that is what we are pointing to right = now)

* Forced renumbering for privacy = sounds unfortunate but based on various
emails I have seen lately = this seems to be something that must = be
supported.

Yes, = sadly. 

* Agreed that service = discovery is essential

I hope these comments are useful, I = recognize I was not overly verbose.  I
hope this is a feature = not a bug.  Please let know if you wish to = discuss
further.

Thank you for = the review and input, John.

- = Mark


John
-----Original = Message-----
From: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: = Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:56 AM
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [v6ops] new draft: draft-shishio-v6ops-dpvt


On 26 Feb 2013, = at 14:07, "Brzozowski, John"
<John_Brzozowski@Cable.Co= mcast.com> wrote:


[jjmb] = incorrect I have both, just stating that I have both.  Apologies = if
I was not clear.  I = also have a good # of home routers actively using = IPv6
enabled broadband today, = ~3%.




Congratulations, = btw. That must be a large number when converted to = real
customers = :)


The homenet = architecture assumes a CPE rather than a single host. = It
discusses ISP allocations = in section 3.4.1 of
http://tool= s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07.  As that = text
is in WGLC, any comments = on that section would be welcome (preferably = on
the homenet = list).


Tim

____________________________________= ___________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/v6ops
____________________________________________= ___
homenet mailing = list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet<= br>

__________________________________________= _____
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

= --Apple-Mail=_9DD2989D-2646-4AF7-9969-4B593CD1F9B4-- From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 08:01:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A674021F8E04 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 08:01:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.488 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.488 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9kSZmPLGugEp for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 08:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F4421F8DEC for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 08:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DF1Wis004269 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:01:32 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DF1Wis004269 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363186892; bh=ov2RVJhcxYHtfCHcB5G/wb3yebY=; h=From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=VaKrxf+V2SeSKaG6tafvNbhNi2iv11tOCBaBvIHwYzLcMGnw2hPcdSLNmx/eyamn+ w2ahDctM8igSWIlymK9GZAVD8zurj9N6Y3a3w3JoK1L46XPWhl58AiR15i/OzgzVTM 4vZhgaK3fBxxDd5RdAPO48eA1hMT+1LaMfviyeoE= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CF1W0430608723nO ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:01:32 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DF1Flv028435 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:01:17 GMT From: Tim Chown Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3A401B60-89B3-4337-8A74-72EBD3944108" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:01:14 +0000 References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51278B89.8000107@gmail.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE731053F75D@wds-exc2.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51290D04.5060001@globis.net> <28D9F72D-6BED-46AE-982A-49A1AD2F378A@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" In-Reply-To: <51290D04.5060001@globis.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CF1W043060872300; tid=p2CF1W0430608723nO; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DF1Wis004269 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:01:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3A401B60-89B3-4337-8A74-72EBD3944108 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Ray, Thanks as ever for the comments, which I have integrated and commented = on below.... On 23 Feb 2013, at 18:40, Ray Hunter wrote: > As requested I have read draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07. Thanks everyone = for > the effort so far. >=20 > IMHO I think the document is in very good shape, but that we're not > quite there yet > (which I guess means I'm obliged to supply comments on why I think > that's the case). >=20 > The main thrust of my comments below is an underlying feeling that we > haven't yet fully got a handle on the boundary at the ISP/customer > interface & the homenet/Internet interface, and that this will bite us > later. >=20 > I also think there's quite a bit of room to tighten up on = nomenclature. > e.g. home network v. homenet. ISP uplink v. Customer Internet > connections. Border v. CER v. Border CER. >=20 > Perhaps rather surprisingly, "homenet" is not defined anywhere. >=20 > regards, > RayH >=20 > Detailed comments > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > Section 1 > s/While at the time of writing some complex home network topologies > exist, but most are/ > While at the time of writing some complex home network topologies = exist, > most are / >=20 > s/like to avoid such/like to avoid, such/ >=20 > s/IPv6 with an eye/IPv6, with an eye/ >=20 > s/can not be affected by new /cannot be modified by new / >=20 >=20 > /[RFC6204] defines basic requirements for customer edge routers > (CERs). The scope of this text is the internal homenet, and thus > specific features on the CER are out of scope for this text./ >=20 > I find this particular formulation confusing. >=20 > Perhaps > /[RFC6204] defined basic requirements for customer edge routers = (CERs), > which has recently been updated with the definition of requirements = for > specific transition tools on the CER in RFC 6204-bis > [I-D.ietf-v6ops-6204bis] i.e. DS-Lite [RFC6333] and 6rd [RFC5969]. = Such > detailed specification of CER devices is considered out of scope of = this > architecture document, and we assume that any required update of the = CER > device specification as a result of adopting this architecture will be > handled as separate and specific updates to these existing documents./ >=20 > Section 1.1. > /CER: Customer Edge Router. A border router at the edge of the = homenet./ >=20 > I regularly read "Homenet BR" or "Border Router" on this list used > interchangeably with CER. > Are they different? Equivalent? Or do we need to change our > behaviour/definitions? We assume that the CER has an interface to one or more ISPs, and to one = or more internal subnets. See section 3.2 where topology is discussed. > This is my biggest worry. Do we have a good handle on the interface at > the border? The text talks about demarcation:=20 "Demarcation of the CER. The CER(s) may or may not be managed by the ISP. If the demarcation point is such that the customer can provide or manage the CER, its configuration must be simple. Both models must be supported." > Does the set of "End-User network(s)" in Section 3 map 1:1 with a = homenet? > I don't think so: it includes the CER. >=20 > What is a "Service Provider Network"? The rest of the Internet that > isn't in the homenet? > Wouldn't harm to copy some more definitions from 6204. Fair point, some of that has been copied. We don't use language like = 'end-user network' in this text though; instead we use 'homenet'. > Section 2.1 >=20 > s/This is discussed later in the document./This is discussed in = Section > 3.7./ >=20 > /border router(s)/ > See comment on 1.1 Border Router v Customer Edge Router? Added to the definitions. > /There will also be the need to discover which routers in the homenet > are the border router(s) by an appropriate mechanism. Here, there > are a number of choices. These include an appropriate service > discovery protocol, or the use of a well-known name, resolved by = some > local name service. Both might have to deal with handling more than > one router responding in multihomed environments./ >=20 > Above paragraph does not make sense to me. > Seems to be a context shift in the middle of the paragraph. > How is a name service related to discovery of a border router? > We're not suggesting all CER's have to be called a particular = hostname? Deleted, as it's covered under routing. > /2.2. Global addressability and elimination of NAT/ > Strictly speaking, NAT won't be eliminated entirely. IPv4 will still = use > NAT. IPv6 never had NAT. > How about just /2.2. Global addressability/ >=20 > s/The end-to-end communication that is potentially enabled with IPv6/ > The possibility for direct end-to-end communication on the Internet = that > will be restored by the introduction of IPv6/ >=20 > The Internet architecture always was, and still is, direct end-to-end > communication. We just temporarily lost the ability to do it due to = lack > of addresses. Indeed. The elmination of NAT part has been left in though. > s/on the firewall/ > on any firewall/ >=20 >=20 > Section 2.3 > s/Default Address Selection for IPv6[I-D.ietf-6man-rfc3484bis]/ > Default Address Selection for Internet Protocol Version 6 (IPv6) = [RFC6724]/ >=20 > s/We discuss such challenges in multihoming later in this document./ > We discuss such challenges of multihoming in Section 3.3.1./ >=20 > Section 2.4 > s/Despite this counter-argument, while setting a network up there may = be > a period with no connectivity/ >

Despite this counter-argument, there may be a period with no > connectivity while setting up a network/ >=20 > s/when the ULA destination lies within a /48 ULA prefix known to be = used > within the same homenet./ > when the ULA source and destination addresses lie within a single /48 > ULA prefix known to be used within the same homenet. > However, it should be noted that even if it were known that multiple = /48 > ULA prefixes are in use within a single homenet > (perhaps because multiple homenet routers each independently > auto-generate a /48 ULA prefix and then share routing information), > utilising a ULA source address and a ULA destination address from two > disjoint /48 ULA prefixes is not preferred over using GUA by the = default > address selection rules [RFC6724]. In this case, special action may = have > to be taken at the individual host level if this was desired behaviour > e.g. by modifying the address selection policy table./ Yes, it would be preferable if internal ULAs were used, even if = different, rather than GUAs. That should be (auto) configurable. > Section 2.5 Security and Borders >=20 > s/The filtering policy to/from the homenet is an important > consideration, but the homenet/ISP border may not be the only border > in a homenet. It is desirable that there are mechanisms to detect > other types of borders, and then the means to apply different types > of filtering policies at those borders, e.g. whether naming and > service discovery should pass a given border. Any such policies > should be able to be easily applied by typical home users, e.g. to > give a visitor in a "guest" network access to media services in the > home, or access to a printer in the residence. Simple mechanisms to > apply policy changes, or associations between devices, will be > required./ > There are many potential borders related to the homenet. Some of > these borders may be obvious by their nature > and direct relationship to a physical interface e.g. the border > between a high capacity network and a LLN, whilst others less so. >=20 > The borders may also change over time, dependent on the deployment > scenario > e.g. a LLN for building control may be fitted during construction as > a stand-alone network, > and then only later connect to a homenet when the residents move in. >=20 > The ISP/customer border is defined by ownership of equipment, > and this can also change over time e.g. one ISP may supply CER > routers, but a competitor ISP doesn't. >=20 > The filtering policy to/from the homenet to ISP networks is an > important consideration. > This might include standard ingress and egress filtering [BCP38], > as well as other default security policies designed to protect > customer-owned resources and ISP-owned resources.=20 >=20 > It is desirable that there are mechanisms to automatically detect = the > borders, including those that may be less obvious > e.g. a logical separation between a "guest" network and an = "internal" > network, > and then the means to apply different types of filtering policies at > those borders. >=20 > Filtering should be considered in a wider context than just simple > packet filters e.g. whether a naming and > service discovery should pass a given border, the functions = available > to a user > when connecting to a management interface froma certain network, > or filtering of information learned by dynamic routing protocols. >=20 > Any such policies should be able to be easily applied by typical = home > users > e.g. to grant a "guest" user access to a printer on the "internal" > network. > Simple mechanisms to apply policy changes, or associations between > devices, will be required./ It seems you're commenting on older text here Ray? > /It is desirable to classify the external border of the home network > as a unique logical interface separating the home network from > service provider network/s. This border interface may be a single > physical interface to a single service provider, multiple layer 2 > sub-interfaces to a single service provider, or multiple connections > to a single or multiple providers. This border makes it possible to > describe edge operations and interface requirements across multiple > functional areas including security, routing, service discovery, and > router discovery./ >=20 > I have a problem with the 2nd and 3rd sentences of this paragraph. It > mixes organisational interfaces and technical network interfaces. >=20 > When we start associating the external border with physical = interfaces, > I think we risk running into problems given the current document. >=20 > In the current document, the customer may have two CER routers = connected > to two providers (Figure 2) > One of these CER's could be provider managed CER1 and the other = customer > managed CER2. >=20 > So the homenet extends to the WAN interface of each CER? > That isn't explicitly shown anywhere. >=20 > If the CER has to take part in autoconfiguration, that presumably = means > that to support the architecture of figure 2 CER1 will have to accept > prefixes from ISP2. It'll also have to accept a default route to ISP2 = if > the WAN interface to ISP1 goes down. At what point does the ISP > controlling CER1 truly have full management control if they can't even > control the routing, and they have to accept neighbours and dynamic > routing from a customer controlled device? Presumably they have to = place > their BCP38 filters on the WAN interface? They'll also have to be > careful that any management traffic gets sent over the ISP1 interface > from an ISP1 prefix, and not to ISP2 (via the default route just = learned > when the WAN interface goes down). Similarly, how is a customer going = to > be able to control CER1 sufficiently to be able to add shared secrets > etc. required to pair with their devices, when it is controlled by = ISP1? >=20 > I'm not optimistic that this is a workable operational situation. >=20 > The way we've traditionally handled this in the corporate world is to > define an Network to Network Interface (NNI) with one router managed = by > each party connected back to back over a DMZ, and with no end user > devices connected on this interconnection LAN. There would almost > certainly need to be homenet specifications for both sides of the > border. But that would also break the current autoconfiguration = drafts, > because they assume the device initiating autoconfiguration is the = same > device performing DHCPv6 PD. I think the statements (sentences two and three) hold; how it is = implemented, as you discuss, is further detail to be discussed as = solution(s) emerge? The demarcation text I mentioned above states that = the CER may belong to the ISP or the user. > Section 3.3.1 > /The alternative for a homenet would be to deploy NPTv6 > [RFC6296] at the CER, with ULAs then typically used internally. > NPTv6 has some architectural cost, due to the prefix translation > used, but the internal part of the homenet (which is the scope of > this text) sees only the one prefix in use./ >=20 > I think this is controversial, and as has been pointed out recently on > the WG list, is likely to break name resolution. > Also see section 3.4.4 of the architecture /those addresses must not = be > altered in transit./ > As such I think this sentence should be removed. I don't see it in the -07 text. You may be looking at an older version? > s/[I-D.ietf-6man-rfc3484bis]/[RFC6724]/ OK, you definitely are :) > Section 3.4.2 > Here's 2 examples of the fuzzy external border. >=20 > An IPv6-only homenet wouldn't have an IPv4 connection to the CER, > because the CER is within the homenet. I don't see where this is stated. > /functionality in the home gateway router, Such features are outside = the > scope of this document however, being CER functions./ > Isn't CER within the homenet? >=20 > Section 3.4.4 > /In IPv4 NAT networks, the NAT provides an implicit firewall = function./ > Controversial and out of scope. Suggest delete this sentence. No one else has made that comment, as yet. It leads into the 4864 = statement in the next sentence. > Incorrect quotes going further than the original RFC: >=20 > s/ RFC 4864 implies an IPv6 "default deny" policy for inbound > connections be used for similar functionality to IPv4 NAT. / > RFC 4864 Section 4.2 states that "the use of firewalls and Intrusion > Detection Systems (IDSs) is recommended for those that want boundary > protection in addition to host defenses./ >=20 > s/It should be noted that such a "default deny" approach would > effectively replace the need for IPv4 NAT traversal protocols with a > need to use a signalling protocol to request a firewall hole be = opened./ > It should be noted that applying a default deny rule for inbound = traffic > may require use a signalling protocol to request a firewall hole be = opened./ Rewritten to focus on addressability and reachability. > Section 3.4.5 >=20 > There were many comments on the list about potential negative aspects = of > ULA. > s/ULAs should be used within the scope of a homenet to support routing > between subnets regardless of whether a globally unique ISP-provided > prefix is available./ULAs could potentially be used within the scope > of a homenet to support routing between subnets regardless of whether = a > globally unique ISP-provided prefix is available, although it should = be > noted that ULA's may also have some limitations and downside./ That's a bit vague though? But this is clearly something we need to put = to bed, one way or the other. > Section 3.4.6 >=20 > s/In general the routing protocol should support multiple ISP uplinks > and delegated prefixes in concurrent use/ > In general the routing protocol should support multiple customer > internet connecions, and thus multiple delegated prefixes in = concurrent use/ >=20 > Section 3.4.7 > Suggest adding a sentence or two on splitting and recombination > s /The homenet will need to be aware of the extent of its own "site", = as > discussed in the previous section./ > The homenet will need to be aware of the extent of its own "site", as > discussed in the previous section. It may be assumed that the homenet = is > fully connected. If a homenet becomes segmented for whatever reason, > this may result in multiple separate, but fully functional, homenets > e.g. if the interlink between CER1 and CER2 in figure 2 were to break, > this might end up as two disjoint and completely separate homenets, = with > all hosts still able to communicate with the Internet (using their > existing prefixes) via their remaining ISP link. The converse is also > true: when two or more homenet routers are (re)connected together (and > they can determine that it is intended that they communicate), it is = is > expected that they will reconfigure to form a single contiguous = homenet > (with or without disruption to existing communications)./ This is a more general comment that the network may change over time... = not really applicable to this section. I've added a note elsewhere in = the 'support arbitrary topologies' section. > /There may also be a prefix associated with NAT64, if in use in the > homenet./ > Suggest delete. Out of scope. Deleted. > /border CER/ > What is a "border CER"? >=20 > s/Where ULAs are used,/ > If ULAs are used,/ > s/The router should/ > The elected router should/ >=20 > s/should give each link a prefix/ > should result in each link being assigned a stable prefix/ >=20 > Section 3.4.9 >=20 > What is a dual-stack residential gateway? > Suggest > s/The naming service should be able to resolve results for both IPv4 = and > IPv6 addresses, and with queries transported over either IPv4 or IPv6, > where the homenet is running in dual stack operation/ ? Not sure which part of the text this refers to. Old version? > Section 3.4.10. Proxy or Extend? > Suggest moving the last two paragraphs of 3.4.9 into 3.4.10 and = combine >=20 > 3.4.10. Proxy or Extend? This doesn't exist in -07? >=20 > Current service discovery protocols are generally aimed at single > subnets. There are two broad approaches for allowing services that = would > otherwise be link-local to work across a homenet site, and these may > also need to be combined > in practical implementations. >=20 > In the example of service discovery, one approach is to take > protocols like mDNS and > have them run over site multicast within the homenet. >=20 > Implementing Extended mDNS (xmDNS) [I-D.lynn-homenet-site-mdns], may > require > IPv6 multicast to be available across the scope of the whole = homenet. >=20 > This approach is fine if all hosts support the extension, and the > scope within any internal > borders is well-understood. But it's not backwards-compatible with > existing link-local protocols. >=20 > And it may have a negative impact on some hosts and media types. > In some parts of the homenet, e.g. LLNs, devices may be sleeping, = in > which case a proxy for such nodes may be required, that can respond > to multicast service discovery requests. Those same parts of the > network may have less capacity for multicast traffic that may be > flooded from other parts of the network. In general, message > utilisation should be efficient considering the network technologies > the service may need to operate over. >=20 > The alternative approach is to proxy service discovery across each > link, to propagate it. > This is more complex, but is backwards-compatible. It would also = need > to work with IPv6, and > dual-stack. >=20 > The homenet architecture proposes that any existing protocols that > are designed to only work within a subnet should be extended to work > across subnets, rather than defining proxy capabilities for each of > those functions. However, while it is desirable to extend protocols > to site scope operation rather than providing proxy functions on > subnet boundaries, the reality is that until all hosts can use site- > scope discovery protocols, existing link-local protocols would need > to be proxied anyway. >=20 > Some protocols already have proxy functions defined and in use, e.g. > DHCPv6 relays, in which case those protocols would be expected to > continue to operate that way. >=20 >=20 > Section 3.4.11 > s/However, if only a /64 is offered by the ISP, the homenet may be > severely constrained, or even unable to function./ >

BCP 157 [RFC6177] also states that " A key principle for address > management is that end sites always be > able to obtain a reasonable amount of address space for their > actual and planned usage, and over time ranges specified in years > rather than just months. In practice, that means at least one > /64, and in most cases significantly more. One particular > situation that must be avoided is having an end site feel > compelled to use IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Address Translation or = other > burdensome address conservation techniques because it could not > get sufficient address space." > However, if insufficient address space is delegated by the ISP, the > homenet may be severely constrained, or even unable to function./ That's a useful citation, thanks. > /This implies the use of ULAs as supported in RFC 6204./ > I think there's still some debate here. Suggest deleting this = sentence. We need to resolve it properly, not just delete it :) > Section 3.5. > This misses one of the great challenges thrown down by "how to avoid > NAT' related to management boundaries. >=20 > Suggest adding > /IPv4/NAT/MAC address spoofing have been widely (ab)used to isolate > customer managed portions of the network from network service provider > managed portions. One of the expected challenges will be dealing with > increased inter-dependencies between a customer and the ISP, given the > new transparency of this interface, and the expected increased = interaction. Not sure that's needed though? Too much detail? Thanks! Tim >=20 > regards, > RayH >=20 > Ray Bellis wrote: >> On 22 Feb 2013, at 15:15, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>=20 >>> I went through the draft, and noticed an instance of the word = "hoemnet" in section 2.4. >>>=20 >>> Otherwise I think this is now in good shape for publication. >>=20 >> Brian - thanks for the review! >>=20 >> Working Group participants: >>=20 >> I know Tim has had some received some feedback directly, but so far = on-list I make it one "ready to go" and one "more work required". >>=20 >> Please *do* review this version as thoroughly as possible before = March 4th. >>=20 >> thanks, >>=20 >> Ray >>=20 >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_3A401B60-89B3-4337-8A74-72EBD3944108 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = Ray,


Thanks as ever for the comments, which I have = integrated and commented on below....

On 23 Feb = 2013, at 18:40, Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net> = wrote:

As requested I have read draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07. = Thanks everyone for
the effort so far.

IMHO I think the = document is in very good shape, but that we're not
quite there = yet
(which I guess means I'm obliged to supply comments on why I = think
that's the case).

The main thrust of my comments below = is an underlying feeling that we
haven't yet fully got a handle on = the boundary at the ISP/customer
interface & the homenet/Internet = interface, and that this will bite us
later.

I also think = there's quite a bit of room to tighten up on nomenclature.
e.g. home = network v. homenet. ISP uplink v. Customer Internet
connections. = Border v. CER v. Border CER.

Perhaps rather surprisingly, = "homenet" is not defined = anywhere.

regards,
RayH

Detailed = comments
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Section = 1
s/While at the time of writing some complex home network = topologies
exist, but most are/
While at the time of writing some = complex home network topologies exist,
most are /

s/like to = avoid such/like to avoid, such/

s/IPv6 with an eye/IPv6, with an = eye/

s/can not be affected by new /cannot be modified by new = /


/[RFC6204] defines basic requirements for customer edge = routers
  (CERs).  The scope of this text is the = internal homenet, and thus
  specific features on the CER = are out of scope for this text./

I find this particular = formulation confusing.

Perhaps
/[RFC6204] defined basic = requirements for customer edge routers (CERs),
which has recently = been updated with the definition of requirements for
specific = transition tools on the CER in RFC 6204-bis
[I-D.ietf-v6ops-6204bis] = i.e. DS-Lite [RFC6333] and 6rd [RFC5969]. Such
detailed specification = of CER devices is considered out of scope of this
architecture = document, and we assume that any required update of the CER
device = specification as a result of adopting this architecture will = be
handled as separate and specific updates to these existing = documents./

Section 1.1.
/CER: Customer Edge Router.  A = border router at the edge of the homenet./

I regularly read = "Homenet BR" or "Border Router" on this list used
interchangeably = with CER.
Are they different? Equivalent? Or do we need to change = our
behaviour/definitions?

We assume = that the CER has an interface to one or more ISPs, and to one or more = internal subnets.  See section 3.2 where topology is = discussed.

This is my biggest = worry. Do we have a good handle on the interface at
the = border?

The text talks about = demarcation: 
"the ISP. If the = demarcation point is such that the customer can provide or manage the CER, its configuration must be simple. Both models must be supported."

Does the set of "End-User network(s)" in Section 3 map 1:1 = with a homenet?
I don't think so: it includes the CER.

What is = a "Service Provider Network"? The rest of the Internet that
isn't in = the homenet?
Wouldn't harm to copy some more definitions from = 6204.

Fair point, some of that has been = copied.  We don't use language like 'end-user network' in this text = though; instead we use 'homenet'.

Section 2.1

s/This is discussed later in the = document./This is discussed in Section
3.7./

/border = router(s)/
See comment on 1.1 Border Router v Customer Edge = Router?

Added to the = definitions.

/There will also be = the need to discover which routers in the homenet
  are = the border router(s) by an appropriate mechanism.  Here, there
=   are a number of choices.  These include an appropriate = service
  discovery protocol, or the use of a well-known = name, resolved by some
  local name service.  Both = might have to deal with handling more than
  one router = responding in multihomed environments./

Above paragraph does not = make sense to me.
Seems to be a context shift in the middle of the = paragraph.
How is a name service related to discovery of a border = router?
We're not suggesting all CER's have to be called a particular = hostname?

Deleted, as it's covered under = routing.

/2.2.  Global = addressability and elimination of NAT/
Strictly speaking, NAT won't = be eliminated entirely. IPv4 will still use
NAT. IPv6 never had = NAT.
How about just /2.2.  Global addressability/

s/The = end-to-end communication that is potentially enabled with IPv6/
The = possibility for direct end-to-end communication on the Internet = that
will be restored by the introduction of IPv6/

The = Internet architecture always was, and still is, direct = end-to-end
communication. We just temporarily lost the ability to do = it due to lack
of addresses.

Indeed. =  The elmination of NAT part has been left in = though.

s/on the firewall/
on = any firewall/


Section 2.3
s/Default Address Selection for = IPv6[I-D.ietf-6man-rfc3484bis]/
Default Address Selection for = Internet Protocol Version 6 (IPv6) [RFC6724]/

s/We discuss such = challenges in multihoming later in this document./
We discuss such = challenges of multihoming in Section 3.3.1./

Section = 2.4
s/Despite this counter-argument, while setting a network up there = may be
a period with no connectivity/
</p>Despite this = counter-argument, there may be a period with no
connectivity while = setting up a network/

s/when the ULA destination lies within a = /48 ULA prefix known to be used
within the same homenet./
when the = ULA source and destination addresses lie within a single /48
ULA = prefix known to be used within the same homenet.
However, it should = be noted that even if it were known that multiple /48
ULA prefixes = are in use within a single homenet
(perhaps because multiple homenet = routers each independently
auto-generate a /48 ULA prefix and then = share routing information),
utilising a ULA source address and a ULA = destination address from two
disjoint /48 ULA prefixes is not = preferred over using GUA by the default
address selection rules = [RFC6724]. In this case, special action may have
to be taken at the = individual host level if this was desired behaviour
e.g. by modifying = the address selection policy table./

Yes, = it would be preferable if internal ULAs were used, even if different, = rather than GUAs. That should be (auto) = configurable.

Section = 2.5 Security and Borders

s/The filtering policy to/from the = homenet is an important
  consideration, but the = homenet/ISP border may not be the only border
  in a = homenet.  It is desirable that there are mechanisms to detect
=   other types of borders, and then the means to apply = different types
  of filtering policies at those borders, = e.g. whether naming and
  service discovery should pass a = given border.  Any such policies
  should be able to = be easily applied by typical home users, e.g. to
  give a = visitor in a "guest" network access to media services in the
=   home, or access to a printer in the residence.  Simple = mechanisms to
  apply policy changes, or associations = between devices, will be
  required./
=   There are many potential borders related to the homenet. = Some of
these borders may be obvious by their nature
=   and direct relationship to a physical interface e.g. the = border
between a high capacity network and a LLN, whilst others less = so.

  The borders may also change over time, dependent = on the deployment
scenario
  e.g. a LLN for building = control may be fitted during construction as
a stand-alone = network,
  and then only later connect to a homenet when = the residents move in.

  The ISP/customer border is = defined by ownership of equipment,
  and this can also = change over time e.g. one ISP may supply CER
routers, but a = competitor ISP doesn't.

  The filtering policy to/from = the homenet to ISP networks is an
important consideration.
=   This might include standard ingress and egress filtering = [BCP38],
  as well as other default security policies = designed to protect
customer-owned resources and ISP-owned resources. =

  It is desirable that there are mechanisms to = automatically detect the
borders, including those that may be less = obvious
  e.g. a logical separation between a "guest" = network and an "internal"
network,
  and then the means = to apply different types of filtering policies at
those = borders.

  Filtering should be considered in a wider = context than just simple
packet filters e.g. whether a naming and
=   service discovery should pass a given border, the functions = available
to a user
  when connecting to a management = interface froma certain network,
  or filtering of = information learned by dynamic routing protocols.

=   Any such policies should be able to be easily applied by = typical home
users
  e.g. to grant a "guest" user = access to a printer on the "internal"
network.
  Simple = mechanisms to apply policy changes, or associations between
devices, = will be required./

It seems you're = commenting on older text here Ray?

/It is desirable to classify the external border of the = home network
  as a unique logical interface separating = the home network from
  service provider network/s. =  This border interface may be a single
  physical = interface to a single service provider, multiple layer 2
=   sub-interfaces to a single service provider, or multiple = connections
  to a single or multiple providers. This = border makes it possible to
  describe edge operations and = interface requirements across multiple
  functional areas = including security, routing, service discovery, and
=   router discovery./

I have a problem with the 2nd and = 3rd sentences of this paragraph. It
mixes organisational interfaces = and technical network interfaces.

When we start associating the = external border with physical interfaces,
I think we risk running = into problems given the current document.

In the current = document, the customer may have two CER routers connected
to two = providers (Figure 2)
One of these CER's could be provider managed = CER1 and the other customer
managed CER2.

So the homenet = extends to the WAN interface of each CER?
That isn't explicitly shown = anywhere.

If the CER has to take part in autoconfiguration, that = presumably means
that to support the architecture of figure 2 CER1 = will have to accept
prefixes from ISP2. It'll also have to accept a = default route to ISP2 if
the WAN interface to ISP1 goes down. At what = point does the ISP
controlling CER1 truly have full management = control if they can't even
control the routing, and they have to = accept neighbours and dynamic
routing from a customer controlled = device? Presumably they have to place
their BCP38 filters on the WAN = interface? They'll also have to be
careful that any management = traffic gets sent over the ISP1 interface
from an ISP1 prefix, and = not to ISP2 (via the default route just learned
when the WAN = interface goes down). Similarly, how is a customer going to
be able = to control CER1 sufficiently to be able to add shared secrets
etc. = required to pair with their devices, when it is controlled by = ISP1?

I'm not optimistic that this is a workable operational = situation.

The way we've traditionally handled this in the = corporate world is to
define an Network to Network Interface (NNI) = with one router managed by
each party connected back to back over a = DMZ, and with no end user
devices connected on this interconnection = LAN. There would almost
certainly need to be homenet specifications = for both sides of the
border. But that would also break the current = autoconfiguration drafts,
because they assume the device initiating = autoconfiguration is the same
device performing DHCPv6 = PD.

I think the statements (sentences two = and three) hold; how it is implemented, as you discuss, is further = detail to be discussed as solution(s) emerge?  The demarcation text = I mentioned above states that the CER may belong to the ISP or the = user.

Section 3.3.1
/The = alternative for a homenet would be to deploy NPTv6
=   [RFC6296] at the CER, with ULAs then typically used = internally.
  NPTv6 has some architectural cost, due to = the prefix translation
  used, but the internal part of = the homenet (which is the scope of
  this text) sees only = the one prefix in use./

I think this is controversial, and as has = been pointed out recently on
the WG list, is likely to break name = resolution.
Also see section 3.4.4 of the architecture /those = addresses must not be
altered in transit./
As such I think this = sentence should be removed.

I don't see = it in the -07 text.  You may be looking at an older = version?

s/[I-D.ietf-6man-rfc3484bis]/[RFC6724]/

OK, you definitely are :)

Section 3.4.2
Here's 2 examples of the fuzzy external = border.

An IPv6-only homenet wouldn't have an IPv4 connection to = the CER,
because the CER is within the = homenet.

I don't see where this is = stated.

/functionality in the = home gateway router, Such features are outside the
scope of this = document however, being CER functions./
Isn't CER within the = homenet?

Section 3.4.4
/In IPv4 NAT networks, the NAT provides = an implicit firewall function./
Controversial and out of scope. = Suggest delete this sentence.

No one else = has made that comment, as yet. It leads into the 4864 statement in the = next sentence.

Incorrect quotes = going further than the original RFC:

s/ RFC 4864 implies an IPv6 = "default deny" policy for inbound
connections be used for similar = functionality to IPv4 NAT. /
RFC 4864 Section 4.2 states that "the = use of firewalls and Intrusion
Detection Systems (IDSs) is = recommended for those that want boundary
protection in addition to = host defenses./

s/It should be noted that such a "default deny" = approach would
effectively replace the need for IPv4 NAT traversal = protocols with a
need to use a signalling protocol to request a = firewall hole be opened./
It should be noted that applying a default = deny rule for inbound traffic
may require use a signalling protocol = to request a firewall hole be = opened./

Rewritten to focus on = addressability and reachability.

Section 3.4.5

There were many comments on the list = about potential negative aspects of
ULA.
s/ULAs should be used = within the scope of a homenet to support routing
between subnets = regardless of whether a globally unique ISP-provided
=   prefix is available./ULAs could potentially be used within = the scope
of a homenet to support routing between subnets regardless = of whether a
globally unique ISP-provided prefix is available, = although it should be
noted that ULA's may also have some limitations = and downside./

That's a bit vague = though?  But this is clearly something we need to put to bed, one = way or the other.

Section = 3.4.6

s/In general the routing protocol should support multiple = ISP uplinks
and delegated prefixes in concurrent use/
In general = the routing protocol should support multiple customer
internet = connecions, and thus multiple delegated prefixes in concurrent = use/

Section 3.4.7
Suggest adding a sentence or two on = splitting and recombination
s /The homenet will need to be aware of = the extent of its own "site", as
discussed in the previous = section./
The homenet will need to be aware of the extent of its own = "site", as
discussed in the previous section. It may be assumed that = the homenet is
fully connected. If a homenet becomes segmented for = whatever reason,
this may result in multiple separate, but fully = functional, homenets
e.g. if the interlink between CER1 and CER2 in = figure 2 were to break,
this might end up as two disjoint and = completely separate homenets, with
all hosts still able to = communicate with the Internet (using their
existing prefixes) via = their remaining ISP link. The converse is also
true: when two or more = homenet routers are (re)connected together (and
they can determine = that it is intended that they communicate), it is is
expected that = they will reconfigure to form a single contiguous homenet
(with or = without disruption to existing = communications)./

This is a more general = comment that the network may change over time... not really applicable = to this section.  I've added a note elsewhere in the 'support = arbitrary topologies' section.

/There may also be a prefix associated with NAT64, if in = use in the
homenet./
Suggest delete. Out of = scope.

Deleted.

/border CER/
What is a "border CER"?

s/Where = ULAs are used,/
If ULAs are used,/
s/The router should/
The = elected router should/

s/should give each link a = prefix/
should result in each link being assigned a stable = prefix/

Section 3.4.9

What is a dual-stack residential = gateway?
Suggest
s/The naming service should be able to resolve = results for both IPv4 and
IPv6 addresses, and with queries = transported over either IPv4 or IPv6,
where the homenet is running in = dual stack operation/ ?

Not sure which = part of the text this refers to.  Old = version?

Section 3.4.10. =  Proxy or Extend?
Suggest moving the last two paragraphs of = 3.4.9 into 3.4.10 and combine

3.4.10.  Proxy or = Extend?

This doesn't exist in = -07?

  Current service = discovery protocols are generally aimed at single
=   subnets. There are two broad approaches for allowing = services that would
  otherwise be link-local to work = across a homenet site, and these may
also need to be combined
=   in practical implementations.

  In the = example of service discovery, one approach is to take
protocols like = mDNS and
  have them run over site multicast within the = homenet.

  Implementing Extended mDNS (xmDNS) = [I-D.lynn-homenet-site-mdns], may
require
  IPv6 = multicast to be available across the scope of the whole homenet.

=   This approach is fine if all hosts support the extension, = and the
scope within any internal
  borders is = well-understood.  But it's not backwards-compatible with
=   existing link-local protocols.

  And it = may have a negative impact on some hosts and media types.
=   In some parts of the homenet, e.g.  LLNs, devices may = be sleeping, in
  which case a proxy for such nodes may be = required, that can respond
  to multicast service = discovery requests.  Those same parts of the
=   network may have less capacity for multicast traffic that = may be
  flooded from other parts of the network.  In = general, message
  utilisation should be efficient = considering the network technologies
  the service may = need to operate over.

  The alternative approach is to = proxy service discovery across each
link, to propagate it.
=   This is more complex, but is backwards-compatible. It would = also need
to work with IPv6, and
  dual-stack.

=   The homenet architecture proposes that any existing = protocols that
  are designed to only work within a subnet = should be extended to work
  across subnets, rather than = defining proxy capabilities for each of
  those functions. =  However, while it is desirable to extend protocols
=   to site scope operation rather than providing proxy = functions on
  subnet boundaries, the reality is that = until all hosts can use site-
  scope discovery protocols, = existing link-local protocols would need
  to be proxied = anyway.

  Some protocols already have proxy functions = defined and in use, e.g.
  DHCPv6 relays, in which case = those protocols would be expected to
  continue to operate = that way.


Section 3.4.11
s/However, if only a /64 is = offered by the ISP, the homenet may be
severely constrained, or even = unable to function./
<p>BCP 157 [RFC6177] also states that " A = key principle for address
management is that end sites always be
=      able to obtain a reasonable amount of = address space for their
     actual and = planned usage, and over time ranges specified in years
=      rather than just months.  In = practice, that means at least one
     /64, = and in most cases significantly more.  One particular
=      situation that must be avoided is having = an end site feel
     compelled to use = IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Address Translation or other
=      burdensome address conservation techniques = because it could not
     get sufficient = address space."
However, if insufficient address space is delegated = by the ISP, the
homenet may be severely constrained, or even unable = to function./

That's a useful citation, = thanks.

/This implies = the use of ULAs as supported in RFC 6204./
I think there's still some = debate here. Suggest deleting this = sentence.

We need to resolve it properly, = not just delete it :)

Section = 3.5.
This misses one of the great challenges thrown down by "how to = avoid
NAT' related to management boundaries.

Suggest = adding
/IPv4/NAT/MAC address spoofing have been widely (ab)used to = isolate
customer managed portions of the network from network service = provider
managed portions. One of the expected challenges will be = dealing with
increased inter-dependencies between a customer and the = ISP, given the
new transparency of this interface, and the expected = increased interaction.

Not sure that's = needed though?  Too much = detail?

Thanks!

= --Apple-Mail=_3A401B60-89B3-4337-8A74-72EBD3944108-- From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Wed Mar 13 08:21:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAEA21F8E55 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 08:21:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.348 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.348 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.251, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rNHjIcK5vWMF for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 08:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.nominet.org.uk (mx3.nominet.org.uk [213.248.199.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C091621F89AA for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 08:21:37 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:Received:From:To:Subject: Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:Date:Message-ID:Accept-Language: Content-Language:X-MS-Has-Attach:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip:Content-Type:Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=ZYcD57FMHz0P+U2WSO14acl/7GuYUr2m5fVDuGdt4VbSP23GRHccE7yO MBSheIPLDypPhO8vHnKugiNvkVUeUJCC+tSV57ntboWrpeL0WFXe/9GJe +ejkMpciEY6rCNI; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1363188097; x=1394724097; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray=20Bellis=20 |Subject:=20Session=20agenda|Date:=20Wed,=2013=20Mar=2020 13=2015:21:35=20+0000|Message-ID:=20<53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0 C89EB0B4FE73105ACC0E@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk>|To:=20 "homenet@ietf.org=20Group"=20 |MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20quoted- printable|Content-ID:=20<7695C1F9B7BC2241A77FD818656FFB87 @okna.nominet.org.uk>; bh=E0K3PtV+pCXyD7GCu9gnKRszwXUoB25p6nXXRyV/fdI=; b=v751ObfpUdCrkCtmVaSmJckEozjjMF1HlnfwmHM7gPHgkMOWu7hzEbcJ NhAxaLtm9p12Td+cHW31rQMnQSPK1Ir/u3rj8dxVH8QWQxWHaGXlG82Ul 2N5g1qURNC+ANKo; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,838,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="47137356" Received: from wds-exc2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.145]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2013 15:21:36 +0000 Received: from WDS-EXC1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::1593:1394:a91f:8f5f]) by wds-exc2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::7577:eaca:5241:25d4%17]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:21:36 +0000 From: Ray Bellis To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Thread-Topic: Session agenda Thread-Index: AQHOH/5z4BpB3GGWUkCYUZAYb+VF8A== Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:21:35 +0000 Message-ID: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ACC0E@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.2.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <7695C1F9B7BC2241A77FD818656FFB87@okna.nominet.org.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [homenet] Session agenda X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:21:42 -0000 With apologies for not having actually posted this to the list sooner, the = agenda for tomorrow's session is as follows: --8<--8<-- 09:00 - 09:05 Note Well, Jabber Relay, Note taker(s) 09:05 - 09:30 Homenet Architecture Update, WGLC progress draft-chown-homenet-arch-07 (Tim Chown - 25m) 09:30 - 09:50 Guest Presentation IEEE 802.1aq-2012 (Paul Unbehagen - 20m) 09:50 - 10:05 HIPnet draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-01 (Chris Grundemann et al - 15m) 10:05 - 10:35 ISIS, OSPF, Source, DSCP and Flow Label Routing (Fred Baker - 30m) draft-baker-ipv6-isis-automatic-prefix-00 draft-baker-ipv6-isis-dst-flowlabel-routing-00 draft-baker-ipv6-isis-dst-src-routing-00 draft-baker-ipv6-ospf-extensible-00 draft-baker-ipv6-ospf-dst-flowlabel-routing-00 draft-baker-ipv6-ospf-dst-src-routing-00 =20 10:35 - 11:05 Source and Destination Routing draft-troan-homenet-sadr-00 (Ole Troan and Lorenzo Colitti - 30m) 11:05 - 11:15 OSPFv3 - Implementation report (Ole Troan - 10m) draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-autoconfig-00 draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment-03 11:15 - 11:30 Wrap up --8<--8<-- Ray From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 11:20:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB9221F8E3C for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:20:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R7tlnq7H8-t9 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C5321F8E3B for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DIKf7o032118 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:20:41 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DIKf7o032118 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363198842; bh=vMKIHcvUlOmdgNmDyyVLKASzj2I=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=VnFg3AenESvgywEwSX/3aD6A2AVHubl2U+B4VR+Vi1TTBGy+bjv+IS04E6HnKpJFG O0zs7AFtUupgN6IK6lKp0v0dmsOx70TkIuXpvSRmmf6BszwhJgBcxlQUZJrRbmLoBA 2wc0lc3WTkyeYrjIO+L3XzrbEolV9+jc2jeA4HaY= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CIKf0430611571Uv ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:20:41 +0000 Received: from dhcp-9066.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9066.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.8.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DIKZ12022729 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:20:36 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:20:35 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CIKf043061157100; tid=p2CIKf0430611571Uv; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DIKf7o032118 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] last call comments on section 3.7 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:20:46 -0000 Comments in line... On 28 Feb 2013, at 22:09, Michael Thomas wrote: > In general, I do not think this is ready to go. =46rom what I can see, = there is > a significant amount of disagreement about whether mdns and/or sd have = a > place in the homenet architecture, and more than a little bit of = groping > around as to what the problems are that need to be solved. This = section is > both prescriptive in ways it ought not be, and speculative in ways = that an > architecture document shouldn't be doing. I personally think that = enumerating > requirements for what any solution ought to solve for is way more = important, > but is sadly lacking in this section. The aim of the document is to discuss the principles involved. > I think there is an unanswered question in this wg as to whether > naming should take a posture of how to integrate local naming into a = wider > global scope, or figuring out how to adapt globally scoped naming into = a > local context. In practical terms: whether we start with mdns and = .local > and figure out how to hack it, or do we start with DNS and figure out = how > to make it work against requirements. I will again say that the lack = of > well agreed requirements for what we're doing hinders resolving this > question. I don't think that needs to be dictated here. We should be able to = drive that from the principles that we can (hopefully) reach consensus = on. > 3.7.1 Service Discovery >=20 > This section starts out with telling us how it will be presented to = the user (GUI) > without any reference to why a user or anything else needs service = discovery. > As service discovery is not common on the internet today, I think this = requires > a lot more motivation/requirements before jumping and telling us that = out of > scope GUI's will come to the rescue -- it's not even clear that = machine-machine > interfaces to find and configure, say, my IP speakers to my IP home = entertainment > system won't be the norm. Service discovery *is* common in home networks today. Currently users = see such SD via whatever GUIs they use. But sure, the future is likely = to also include device to device SD. > Bottom line: remove the "how" and get immediately to the "why". Then = we > can have a discussion. >=20 > 3.7.2 Assigning Names >=20 > I think this can be easily rewritten to not need any informative = references to yet > to be approved drafts that are not agreed upon. That reference to mDNS has been removed.=20 > 3.7.3 Namespaces >=20 > It's not clear to me why a single namespace is "desirable". Do = rebellious teenagers > really want to be part of their fuddy-duddy parent's namespace? Does = it even > matter, architecturally? At least some motivation would be helpful. = Part of my > uncomfort here is that there is a hidden assumption that a "home" is = an indivisible > unit. Is that really true? A fair point, a homenet realm may have its own namespace, potentially. = Or any specific device could always independently use some 3rd party = dynamic DNS service. > I'm not sure why ISP provided naming should be considered the default: = we really > don't know what will be the case, and obviously ISP's have a big = downside both > from changing ISP's, as well as the multiple-ISP's standpoint. I think = that we can more > safely say that this service is just some "cloud" service provided = somewhere on the > net since there isn't any locality requirement that I'm aware of. Downgraded to 'likely'. > This section dwells in solution space far more than I think it ought, = and is highly > speculative (eg, .sitelocal, ulqdn, etc). Instead of speculating, it = would be better > to say what characteristics we want, and what requirements we need to = fulfill. Trimmed a little in response. > 3.7.4 Homenet name service >=20 > Somewhere in this document we really need to make clear how mobility = figures into > all of this. That is, what happens when things move around and what = the implications > are for naming, both in my home, and on yours. >=20 > I don't think we should compare and contrast mdns as being "zeroconf" = with > the implication that DNS is not. You can achieve "zeroconf" using = service > announcement and not require multicast at all (at least not to = announce the > service). In fact, until we have something resembling rough consensus, = I don't > really think it's appropriate to favor one or the other in this = document. I don't think the document does favour either. =20 >=20 > Again, ditch the references to ISP with something "cloud-like". Good idea. Or both. > I don't understand what mDNS has to do with service announcement to a > repository. mDNS is a way to find names in lieu of a repository (that = is, each > device is it's own authoritative name service). Sending naming/service = announcements > to a repository is an adjunct of the repository protocols and has = nothing to do > with mDNS that I can figure out. Well, a device in a homenet today will commonly use both unicast and = multicast DNS, the former for internal devices, the latter for external. > More speculation about mDNS vs. SRV records without any motivation of = what > is trying to be accomplished and why... it just sort of appears out of = thin air here. So the important aspect is that devices can register themselves with a = name service that would typically be hosted on the CER (and secondaried = elsewhere). > I think more thought needs to be given to adding names automatically = to a > repository. It mentions that a user may choose to do so, but what if = there's > no meaningful "user" such as my IP-speakers with no UI? Should it try = or not? > (I think it ought, but that's me). More to the point: what are the = implications > of things that don't have meaningful UI's. To be defined. But noted. > There should be some more discussion of the differences between a = locally > significant domain name, and a globally significant one. What happens > when people camp on names they don't own? How might that interact with > mobility? Not sure what you mean here. > More speculation about dnydns without any motivation for why it's = interesting > and/or significant. >=20 > There seems to be no mention of the relationship between local/home = resolvers > if the local resolver isn't the authoritative resolver. In particular, = it's not an > unusual situation to have a "cloud" (read: high bandwidth, well = connected...) > authoritative dns be a slave to a local master. Or if you don't like = that, some > other way to achieve similar goals of not wanting my home network have = to > know how to deal with ddos's on nameservers, as one for-instance. I think that's not precluded. The key bit is the homenet must be able = to operate if disconnected. > 3.7.5 Independent Operation >=20 > I'm generally skeptical that anything these days works well when you = pull > the plug on the Internet. There are so many hidden assumptions about > connectivity that I don't think we should try to do anything heroic = here. Sure. It's a fair goal though. > 3.7.6 Considerations for LLN's >=20 > First I'll say that it's not just LLN's that have problems with chatty = networks: > it's anything with a battery. This should be rewritten from that = perspective and > stay away from speculation about whether proxies are needed for a = particular > technology that doesn't necessarily have consensus. >=20 > More to the point: this architecture should have considerations = throughout about > battery driven devices and their considerations, and not just whether = mdns will > cause daily trips to the store to buy new batteries. One for Anders to comment on, perhaps... > 3.7.7 DNS resolver discovery >=20 > I don't understand this section: is there anything we need to do = beyond what > SLAAC and/or DHCP do now? If there is, it might be nice to enumerate = what > the problem is. This came up from Jari's own experiments. It implies stateless DHCP is = available, or that the resolver address(es) are propagated by some other = means. > --- > Overall, section 3.7 leaves me more confused than enlightened. It = reads more > like a stream of consciousness than an architecture. For the reason Ted has observed. I agree it needs to be tighter, = preferably. tim >=20 > Mike > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 11:28:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D121B21F8DD4 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:28:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ge3wmtZJ-Nxy for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0C921F8EC2 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DIS96Y001299 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:28:09 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DIS96Y001299 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363199290; bh=fmUx44djXbokdNC6ouq+L7/orBI=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=ZKOGA7crGe0ATq62LNukz60x4itCEVyqYvswJnASlJduKKBEz6jKBaEphDRvUXzVq u5zXWlJi3AoTBFMfxFVmzB12TDTRkDXyO0v5CREqDFIyDg+B/rE6DPMi2BhbF2pckk 2PzQqQw3HT6lJ1O00cgPRYnJ5h1uzKnTo4QH2VSA= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CIS90430611644Jj ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:28:09 +0000 Received: from dhcp-9066.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9066.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.8.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DIS4nE026913 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:28:05 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <0BE087D3-289F-4344-9F51-95E0CA9E7132@fugue.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:28:05 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <0BE087D3-289F-4344-9F51-95E0CA9E7132@fugue.com> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CIS9043061164400; tid=p2CIS90430611644Jj; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DIS96Y001299 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] last call comments on section 3.7 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:28:21 -0000 On 13 Mar 2013, at 03:32, Ted Lemon wrote: > I'm curious as to why Michael's comments garnered only a single = reply=97I think he raised some good points. =20 The question is whether no one agrees. There have been previous = comments that the text both in this section and in general is OK. > I've been reviewing the architecture document, and it's a hard read. = I think it's actually pretty good in principle, and I know that part of = the reason it's so heavy is because the authors are trying to represent = a plurality of opinions, including my own. I think that's fair comment as to why the document is the way it is. = It's very difficult to be concise when there are so many views and = comments being made. It can be pruned further for sure if you/the chairs = want that.=20 I noticed when reviewing the text to see if the hipnet draft was = compliant or not that it is indeed hard to spot the = requirements/principles. I asked previously if bullet-point requirements would help, but note we = previously had enumerated requirements/principles (which I thought were = very clear and made the text much easier to glance through) but the WG = requested these were instead presented as plain text paragraphs/wording. We could restore bullet-point notes in each section, whether numbered or = not. Another option is to add some kind of summary section listing them. > But in a lot of cases I think it would improve the document to pare it = fairly heavily=97to try to tease out the essence of what everyone wants, = and then leave out the details of how they propose to get it. The = architecture should be what we want, not how we propose to get it. We = don't all agree on how to get it, and perhaps those questions should be = addressed separately. It was always agreed that the specifics pointing to 'drafts in progress' = would be trimmed in the final version, along with change notes. These = have been left in as 'discussion pointers' while the architecture text = is live. I've noted to removed these in the candidate -08.=20 > I can offer more detailed comments, but it would be a pretty big = message, which nobody would feel enthusiastic about reading. Well, you could wait for a -08 resulting from last call, or make them = now... Tim From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 11:41:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0066D11E80F2 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:41:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4W4xPpc+sIxm for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8388111E80DF for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DIfGaR018136 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:41:17 -0700 Message-ID: <5140C84C.6030503@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:41:16 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <0BE087D3-289F-4344-9F51-95E0CA9E7132@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=477; t=1363200077; x=1364064077; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20last=20call=20comments=20on =20section=203.7 |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3Dwindows-1252=3B= 20format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=208bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=TqSw9O1yYlph3c5hpDle79U0/5bgHY4QUTzoSaLGAcI=; b=XGPVutvFhuHb6a5x3yE+O0Fh0KcPZ8JWaSmAEaP49fsbe3qnhPipaTvE1h mslGWlqFyP2h1CdKq1VMDKssNMGcs6FQRO6i8p54ELWwpoe2y/NqGnTOSUru jX7Fw8Xo7ah9/0tokInvyqSGoiwiCMZg1x169ElSngxb6ypDjxvSU=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] last call comments on section 3.7 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:41:55 -0000 On 03/13/2013 11:28 AM, Tim Chown wrote: > On 13 Mar 2013, at 03:32, Ted Lemon wrote: > >> I'm curious as to why Michael's comments garnered only a single reply—I think he raised some good points. > The question is whether no one agrees. There are 5 authors listed on the draft, and it's been two weeks before anybody has said a word. If the authors don't agree, they can at least say so. Otherwise what is the point of last call comments? Mike From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 11:46:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7703E21F8C49 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:46:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k3qMnZad7za3 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE5C21F8ABC for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:5087:8cff:d4fe:51a4] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:5087:8cff:d4fe:51a4]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 311F32381512; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:46:51 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1260806E-1ADA-4C3B-9859-BDECCD5DA9D6@fugue.com> References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <0BE087D3-289F-4344-9F51-95E0CA9E7132@fugue.com> To: Tim Chown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] last call comments on section 3.7 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:46:53 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 2:28 PM, Tim Chown wrote: > Well, you could wait for a -08 resulting from last call, or make them = now... I like the "wait" proposal. If you think the idea of tightening this = up is good in principle, I will send you some samples after -08 comes = out and see what you think. They may indeed fall afoul of the "but I = wanted it to say X" bugaboo, but I think to some extent we need to own = that, and I say that as a frequent offender myself, so you can shame me = about it later if I revert to form... :) From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 11:48:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5155D11E80F1 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:48:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gQxSFUFHQIab for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9BFD21F8C49 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:5087:8cff:d4fe:51a4] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:5087:8cff:d4fe:51a4]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4D85B2381512; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5140C84C.6030503@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:48:06 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <0BE087D3-289F-4344-9F51-95E0CA9E7132@fugue.com> <5140C84C.6030503@mtcc.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] last call comments on section 3.7 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:48:08 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 2:41 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > There are 5 authors listed on the draft, and it's been two weeks = before anybody > has said a word. If the authors don't agree, they can at least say so. = Otherwise > what is the point of last call comments? I think the authors can safely plead "IETF prep/travel" for this = particular two-week period... :) From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 11:51:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F9421F8D2F for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:51:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CFTVqKShY+5u for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841F421F8D76 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DIp3JO021531 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:51:03 -0700 Message-ID: <5140CA97.8080503@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:51:03 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <0BE087D3-289F-4344-9F51-95E0CA9E7132@fugue.com> <5140C84C.6030503@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=560; t=1363200663; x=1364064663; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20last=20call=20comments=20on =20section=203.7 |Sender:=20 |To:=20Ted=20Lemon=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3Dwindows-1252=3B= 20format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=3sS1rFVxfzR4SA5IMvOO5HlbgnD7/exjrtgc1n/CnM8=; b=EzAXUk17Xb2PERIrZ9BlO0LvY2/A0XU2vFAI75CAgBwR7s+zVZT60BFt5G 67hUr+uPSugKqh7OnVQpFZVZiHUiMVUu82FCJmWsLmke9FAKWf81MBy0xXgd s54Ph1oqkoUGeVd2LNACSHNKnHeyzaWmRmuaOpmfIW9Da5XmeqiMM=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] last call comments on section 3.7 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:51:40 -0000 On 03/13/2013 11:48 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 13, 2013, at 2:41 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> There are 5 authors listed on the draft, and it's been two weeks before anybody >> has said a word. If the authors don't agree, they can at least say so. Otherwise >> what is the point of last call comments? > I think the authors can safely plead "IETF prep/travel" for this particular two-week period... :) If the authors and chairs didn't have the time and energy to do a last call, the document shouldn't have been last called. Mike From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 12:25:04 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653E411E8185 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:25:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g5h39oAfPtKw for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22ADF11E8128 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DJO5EU000356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:24:05 -0700 Message-ID: <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:24:05 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1261; t=1363202645; x=1364066645; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Why=20do=20homenets=20need=20SD?=20(was=3A=20[h omenet]=20last=20call=20comments=20on=20section=0A=203.7) |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=zkW57DvtZydpCC8C+IMi7KOjBR5qSxtLh+hBDmB3Q00=; b=KJVBP/mdeEfq2sGrSIIoSMkmciTQT+b3HJmxk3jreVqVQSK8MH3Adw7HQp PfyMyHlXx2xMw11Lz1KJ1pr03doSrX4irrbHtxgDozftgLu/W+b2pxQOpZsa Gb4ByxHDmo6i3hVkxn3UPXGpPLR8ID0Jf6K9yqpd6Azv+IBIPYagc=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? (was: last call comments on section 3.7) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:25:04 -0000 On 03/13/2013 11:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: > >> 3.7.1 Service Discovery >> >> This section starts out with telling us how it will be presented to the user (GUI) >> without any reference to why a user or anything else needs service discovery. >> As service discovery is not common on the internet today, I think this requires >> a lot more motivation/requirements before jumping and telling us that out of >> scope GUI's will come to the rescue -- it's not even clear that machine-machine >> interfaces to find and configure, say, my IP speakers to my IP home entertainment >> system won't be the norm. > Service discovery *is* common in home networks today. Currently users see such SD via whatever GUIs they use. But sure, the future is likely to also include device to device SD. > Service discovery is *not* common. Only in the rarified environment of IETF could such a statement be made with a straight face. Just because appletalk, lan manager protocols, etc provide such functionality doesn't mean they are in common use in homes. In any case, this isn't responsive to the larger point that this section doesn't provide any motivation of why SD is needed or even important, and if it is, what the homenet requirements are. Mike From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 12:28:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D999421F8A0C for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:28:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kXVR+ucwav1N for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A4121F89CB for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DJScTk015942 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:28:38 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DJScTk015942 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363202918; bh=Gb1hgPHap0QNdxUaJDqJDN3SWOY=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=A3YYfTe/Wiumn1dpGJ0dao89d+noEeRGCnRg2Sa+I6G3GnqU2imnahjJmxSYwSkbM NHmnVjAl8aXiUjudxp5qzXj30C6jVffQCXKGeABRasxWJO/QtLdBDsd8GhhA4DWVF/ xRT7VDpmq4uAl6C2eGFnSKYm8qprw4L0BLSKjpFg= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CJSc0430612227aE ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:28:38 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DJRJVW021245 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:27:20 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <5140C84C.6030503@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:27:19 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <0BE087D3-289F-4344-9F51-95E0CA9E7132@fugue.com> <5140C84C.6030503@mtcc.com> <0AA38EA3-9229-4D9D-9A4E-B0CA5B31BAAB@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CJSc043061222700; tid=p2CJSc0430612227aE; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DJScTk015942 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] last call comments on section 3.7 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:28:46 -0000 On 13 Mar 2013, at 18:41, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/13/2013 11:28 AM, Tim Chown wrote: >> On 13 Mar 2013, at 03:32, Ted Lemon wrote: >>=20 >>> I'm curious as to why Michael's comments garnered only a single = reply=97I think he raised some good points. >> The question is whether no one agrees. >=20 > There are 5 authors listed on the draft, and it's been two weeks = before anybody > has said a word. If the authors don't agree, they can at least say so. = Otherwise > what is the point of last call comments? The comments are being looked at, so that the key issues can be = discussed here in Orlando.=20 Personally, I have had a huge workload outside of the IETF for the past = month. The question is whether we have rough consensus within the WG. Tim= From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 12:32:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9B021F8C23 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:32:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BzdBYSajeBGy for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A548321F89CB for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DJVTOl003244 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:31:30 -0700 Message-ID: <5140D411.3080002@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:31:29 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <0BE087D3-289F-4344-9F51-95E0CA9E7132@fugue.com> <5140C84C.6030503@mtcc.com> <0AA38EA3-9229-4D9D-9A4E-B0CA5B31BAAB@ecs.soton.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=749; t=1363203090; x=1364067090; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20last=20call=20comments=20on =20section=203.7 |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3Dwindows-1252=3B= 20format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=208bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=PHP6Mdcb1V1K8VkJ9VCsaTf+jLO7X4oisXv5VkyRhow=; b=MzHgQ0u4kKbukFOaFchXMZJgsPikk/WgpM8OR/b3+g0vE+YVvVEG0wK88L tEaPf5XHtmBLASUE9DDHQMz9MCca/vDVJSPIQl1yg3USTCKwm2MUG1GaGt9j 1qV6e0k5pxZF5Zo8wKWpKd82z4Sy6nPUUCf+Lqh84FLZW1pu1Eh6M=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] last call comments on section 3.7 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:32:03 -0000 On 03/13/2013 12:27 PM, Tim Chown wrote: > On 13 Mar 2013, at 18:41, Michael Thomas wrote: > >> On 03/13/2013 11:28 AM, Tim Chown wrote: >>> On 13 Mar 2013, at 03:32, Ted Lemon wrote: >>> >>>> I'm curious as to why Michael's comments garnered only a single reply—I think he raised some good points. >>> The question is whether no one agrees. >> There are 5 authors listed on the draft, and it's been two weeks before anybody >> has said a word. If the authors don't agree, they can at least say so. Otherwise >> what is the point of last call comments? > The comments are being looked at, so that the key issues can be discussed here in Orlando. I will not be in Orlando. Discuss them here. Mike From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 12:35:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A5021F8C71 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:35:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V3SfFE0Nt2Jc for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E069A21F8C69 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DJZ3SO017442 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:35:03 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DJZ3SO017442 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363203304; bh=3V/uCwPLB9PmNEJNv6YOFfTtZt0=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=1NGnjFxjteTU9YssnirjjVba5NE+wxnRmqcKON1exLYSjOjoeEKC3t2Q2WHhGLbbL F6dS9/VA2H5x03uVp8Zvak6kXuOjqcmCy2m0puye1YF66QsJ7wsW8VDu4xuVD+N2G/ EXTs4ZHtBE0dWhbY4n588CLF48xiPdOQWQSvZjbU= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CJZ30430612278oe ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:35:04 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DJXjvS023285 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:33:46 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:33:45 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CJZ3043061227800; tid=p2CJZ30430612278oe; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DJZ3SO017442 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? (was: last call comments on section 3.7) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:35:10 -0000 On 13 Mar 2013, at 19:24, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/13/2013 11:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: >>=20 >>> 3.7.1 Service Discovery >>>=20 >>> This section starts out with telling us how it will be presented to = the user (GUI) >>> without any reference to why a user or anything else needs service = discovery. >>> As service discovery is not common on the internet today, I think = this requires >>> a lot more motivation/requirements before jumping and telling us = that out of >>> scope GUI's will come to the rescue -- it's not even clear that = machine-machine >>> interfaces to find and configure, say, my IP speakers to my IP home = entertainment >>> system won't be the norm. >> Service discovery *is* common in home networks today. Currently = users see such SD via whatever GUIs they use. But sure, the future is = likely to also include device to device SD. >=20 > Service discovery is *not* common. Only in the rarified environment of > IETF could such a statement be made with a straight face. Just because > appletalk, lan manager protocols, etc provide such functionality = doesn't > mean they are in common use in homes. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. > In any case, this isn't responsive to the larger point that this = section > doesn't provide any motivation of why SD is needed or even important, > and if it is, what the homenet requirements are. The need for SD has been implicit from the start of the process. No one = else has questioned that need, as yet. If others agree with you, it = would be good if they spoke up now. Tim= From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 12:43:31 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA7F421F8D22 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:43:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K8pyCOt2dRpK for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB6621F8D1B for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DJgxIF007392 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:42:59 -0700 Message-ID: <5140D6C3.500@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:42:59 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=641; t=1363203779; x=1364067779; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Why=20do=20homenets=20need= 20SD? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=pMk0P1+VNBv8/yk+WINqhM6uHnaq7xuzohBwsDm2iek=; b=aJAqT5Ufzyt+2UAaHczDHLoGjkJXoye43Z6ylE+xgPp5bmge87Tm/SFHzg 06yjD7S0ifo7SFM42Io/XritodAX5wAfLdDnlLf8NDkoJRfGvvBOYvIQc0ki mipvaYfrwNYlbcydf3/lmROxcrTe30rYRD1YaJOUHF56azbW+Tmrg=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:43:32 -0000 On 03/13/2013 12:33 PM, Tim Chown wrote: > > In any case, this isn't responsive to the larger point that this section > doesn't provide any motivation of why SD is needed or even important, > and if it is, what the homenet requirements are. > The need for SD has been implicit from the start of the process. No one else has questioned that need, as yet. If others agree with you, it would be good if they spoke up now. > > Is it *really* too much to ask that an architecture document make explicit and give motivation to its requirements? This is last call. It's where you get questioned about implicit assumptions. Mike From d.sturek@att.net Wed Mar 13 12:48:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD19621F8DEE for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:48:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1EqzyyXLeDCV for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm23-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm23-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.180]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4914E21F8DDB for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [98.139.44.98] by nm23.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Mar 2013 19:48:27 -0000 Received: from [67.195.14.109] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Mar 2013 19:48:27 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp106.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Mar 2013 19:48:27 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1363204107; bh=G4nct5/A5MIrvfX1PHk92t0ysF6cwzfLg2T0oyNyIGE=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; b=iEyFwt7KLTE/2BhCQMy7teRVd4kMMu+vCwyP0jeGGaxjK2EwpcUxuVXcA1FNKdTCdnHYM6IFHD7h/PajykQixijDPjcGLZUUQmVJxgi4yR6RL3TXe8IWFDDEPDzQv0CcT9iDPnj6xGq3EBLrjjBIwCjUcq++VRGhm/C1Rg4Hjco= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 722094.2625.bm@smtp106.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: nt71H38VM1khCSsdab1fUEpm70f3OTZW6HBVf_GLHnpEGZ. bZfo.2S2OFL93vHNxPSpbXbAN7hovFgu27lPguzAbeVunQhnUEIfeP6ItZP9 c4oq6BC_Rt.t9oymUCe.B3_rtPPOXHd4CrBpF0prTtywMgu8srJchVDdN06w WIo.yvwUgMu0LtzfYQEn4hWlNPDeFiAgDd.M5x0LbL_oJiLyQUzhNufxt.rU HoZfOchuhdFs0h.eQo8w2VcT.q8yukfauG90QI2wSD1KToInPXvoi3EqaqnU Nh4m6OTsgWwJckxHwBW3AsmP9uihOE5HTwoAY9LJOPSOyEJu0wXdWHayrpdx V0LPYnSQCgxR_csMdwoqRmcH9UA4FqWL1og_YNzjpyKeZDe6Ohj6JljVlaQS eBeEf45w5kxvULFmMx6NB4bGIq4gawFPpP45j.9OHQqnl7EaMW.97M82.2U3 XhUlYWuI.9zYTbRmFcsOiKxH44rEW.z4f.4k- X-Yahoo-SMTP: fvjol_aswBAraSJvMLe2r1XTzhBhbFxY8q8c3jo- Received: from [10.1.1.117] (d.sturek@66.27.60.174 with login) by smtp106.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Mar 2013 12:48:27 -0700 PDT User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:48:21 -0700 From: Don Sturek To: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? (was: last call comments on section 3.7) In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? (was: last call comments on section 3.7) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:48:33 -0000 Speaking as someone who thinks service discovery is absolutely essential, could someone enlighten me as to how devices communicating machine to machine would locate compatible devices to communicate with absent service discovery? I also don't disagree that section 3.7.1 needs better clarity on the need for service discovery. I think if you ask for input you will receive plenty of text to cover this point, however. Don On 3/13/13 12:33 PM, "Tim Chown" wrote: >On 13 Mar 2013, at 19:24, Michael Thomas wrote: > >> On 03/13/2013 11:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: >>> >>>> 3.7.1 Service Discovery >>>> >>>> This section starts out with telling us how it will be presented to >>>>the user (GUI) >>>> without any reference to why a user or anything else needs service >>>>discovery. >>>> As service discovery is not common on the internet today, I think >>>>this requires >>>> a lot more motivation/requirements before jumping and telling us that >>>>out of >>>> scope GUI's will come to the rescue -- it's not even clear that >>>>machine-machine >>>> interfaces to find and configure, say, my IP speakers to my IP home >>>>entertainment >>>> system won't be the norm. >>> Service discovery *is* common in home networks today. Currently users >>>see such SD via whatever GUIs they use. But sure, the future is likely >>>to also include device to device SD. >> >> Service discovery is *not* common. Only in the rarified environment of >> IETF could such a statement be made with a straight face. Just because >> appletalk, lan manager protocols, etc provide such functionality doesn't >> mean they are in common use in homes. > >I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. > >> In any case, this isn't responsive to the larger point that this section >> doesn't provide any motivation of why SD is needed or even important, >> and if it is, what the homenet requirements are. > >The need for SD has been implicit from the start of the process. No one >else has questioned that need, as yet. If others agree with you, it >would be good if they spoke up now. > >Tim >_______________________________________________ >homenet mailing list >homenet@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 13:01:01 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15DAC21F8E47 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:01:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id miWfE6+y3xte for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D36321F8E46 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DK0uk9024023 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:00:56 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DK0uk9024023 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363204856; bh=RUb7CLzQkdEh/8klIVPs9dAcfJQ=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=MjJgeNQBKbBz77pOeTb2X92W+FUNgeqxefSsMJXk9qnghNVQ6VtM3JBvGFeb3eNF4 Aqp0viCszTeTwgBGU8syLkV/0pmbUKUWu9rlpOtlWkZiSZknU3EAxUrWEbFKmvobL0 OGFCHZ4uNDWK0l4GKrXo3qZ4McYsSpCUgegz/XvE= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CK0u0430612509fl ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:00:56 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DJxaEc031467 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:59:37 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <583E836C-D76C-44B3-BAFB-0F204138E96F@fugue.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:59:37 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> <513D286E.5050007@zytor.com> <51e70487-bee2-4bb8-bc84-6f227b7e9b67@email.android.com> <583E836C-D76C-44B3-BAFB-0F204138E96F@fugue.com> <6039FC64-CF51-4F5F-8319-EF02F0BE02B2@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CK0u043061250900; tid=p2CK0u0430612509fl; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DK0uk9024023 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:01:01 -0000 On 11 Mar 2013, at 12:45, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 11, 2013, at 1:31 AM, H. Peter Anvin wrote: >> That doesn't give the option to the server, though... the client has = to ask for one or the other. >=20 > What I would suggest is that if the client doesn't get a big enough = allocation, it request an additional allocation, rather than that it try = to anticipate what the server will return and prepare for the worst. I agree with Ran's original comments. These are reinforced in the = candidate -08 text. Are there IPv6 ISPs out there who would allocate an additional (say) /60 = if the CER requested an additional prefix? Would it not be simpler to = state that the prefix in use in the homenet from any ISP should be = contiguous, and sufficient in size for the homenet's requirement, as per = 6177 (which recommends "significantly more than a single /64"?) Tim= From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 13:02:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE6511E8116 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:02:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p3dOmVcaOD-h for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB5011E80F3 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DK1gnT014068 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:01:42 -0700 Message-ID: <5140DB26.70104@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:01:42 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1369; t=1363204902; x=1364068902; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20global=20vs.=20local=20naming |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=O4u+6/xHOqQ8Qg0SKUr3iB7w8fa4S3lN1JOToJVs1B0=; b=qSbL1JYBj7IeRgpPrNkSqYnXamwPP2VETM6IaKeBP7we/ISIAAg3gmvXXE 08LDZbc5wGyvLpyJyKV6Qhy4C/jpP+ft3WXqcdOXTfaWvgPQbXwcDysVKQi9 1csTzs4t6xk67CDfNFrcuUduIcbzFeMCUHkoRoRnEj11wjmuVZZX0=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: [homenet] global vs. local naming X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:02:39 -0000 On 03/13/2013 11:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: > > I think there is an unanswered question in this wg as to whether > naming should take a posture of how to integrate local naming into a wider > global scope, or figuring out how to adapt globally scoped naming into a > local context. In practical terms: whether we start with mdns and .local > and figure out how to hack it, or do we start with DNS and figure out how > to make it work against requirements. I will again say that the lack of > well agreed requirements for what we're doing hinders resolving this > question. > I don't think that needs to be dictated here. We should be able to drive that from the principles that we can (hopefully) reach consensus on. > This is an architecture document: if not here, where? This is a basic architectural issue, and deserves to be fleshed out. What is the relationship of homenet naming to global naming? What happens in the face of mobility? What is the relationship of a local naming to global naming? What are the problems that need to be resolved if local naming is used? What are the problems that need to be resolved if global naming is used? What are the requirements that any proposed solution needs to fulfill? All of this is lacking in section 3.7. If I were a contractor using this "architecture" I wouldn't know what to build. Mike From andrewmcgr@gmail.com Wed Mar 13 13:11:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6873E11E814B for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:11:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lu9d6xNJ3JvW for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22b.google.com (mail-la0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5002A11E813B for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f43.google.com with SMTP id ek20so1628917lab.16 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:11:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=X88pMN4GxKCSD07YUK+gqxYIzWTE1Tu0WZwKRGNqAqg=; b=WyNELaz/rdvVKXRa6LDYK/glCnnIqY+IgEX9Uk5u3u2dp74AgOtCmIMuujG++EKuw9 flYCqexugk6JlQ0L6Iyef1DGKB+Gr4C26BgjV5Pq4cr38VhZC40aDh67eEOyro3MA0gz LyGW8lDimpzVT7jKDxwCJ+yK6k/iAyNPZ47s5IDymAPz5KGSRzV2xQvYyMRmEWR+6egF jVOHqysCcZYeIV8yybpBiiQIy0Ujm2Ez97uuOO/wSvzqiFwqDPGez0ZOQrkACrwP+zlN VCBTRvgJNgGL/hBQX2K6pwlnOH6sJXcypikPXsH+BDbmJ2ymnFeuS7lKxJwK+nXIPnXP AQGg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.26.65 with SMTP id j1mr63400lbg.90.1363205496139; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.21.7 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:11:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> <513D286E.5050007@zytor.com> <51e70487-bee2-4bb8-bc84-6f227b7e9b67@email.android.com> <6039FC64-CF51-4F5F-8319-EF02F0BE02B2@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <583E836C-D76C-44B3-BAFB-0F204138E96F@fugue.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:11:35 -0400 Message-ID: From: Andrew McGregor To: Tim Chown Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec55556905a7b9f04d7d40324 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:11:38 -0000 --bcaec55556905a7b9f04d7d40324 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I've met one that will allocate more /48s if you ask, and have met a DHCPv6 server implementation that would give you a new prefix if you generated a new client ID. So, yes, they easily can exist and in at least one case do. On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tim Chown wrote: > > On 11 Mar 2013, at 12:45, Ted Lemon wrote: > > > On Mar 11, 2013, at 1:31 AM, H. Peter Anvin wrote: > >> That doesn't give the option to the server, though... the client has to > ask for one or the other. > > > > What I would suggest is that if the client doesn't get a big enough > allocation, it request an additional allocation, rather than that it try to > anticipate what the server will return and prepare for the worst. > > I agree with Ran's original comments. These are reinforced in the > candidate -08 text. > > Are there IPv6 ISPs out there who would allocate an additional (say) /60 > if the CER requested an additional prefix? Would it not be simpler to > state that the prefix in use in the homenet from any ISP should be > contiguous, and sufficient in size for the homenet's requirement, as per > 6177 (which recommends "significantly more than a single /64"?) > > Tim > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > --bcaec55556905a7b9f04d7d40324 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've met one that will allocate more /48s if you ask, = and have met a DHCPv6 server implementation that would give you a new prefi= x if you generated a new client ID. =A0So, yes, they easily can exist and i= n at least one case do.


On Wed, Mar 1= 3, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:=

On 11 Mar 2013, at 12:45, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

> On Mar 11, 2013, at 1:31 AM, H. Peter Anvin <hpa@zytor.com> wrote:
>> That doesn't give the option to the server, though... the clie= nt has to ask for one or the other.
>
> What I would suggest is that if the client doesn't get a big enoug= h allocation, it request an additional allocation, rather than that it try = to anticipate what the server will return and prepare for the worst.

I agree with Ran's original comments. =A0These are reinforc= ed in the candidate -08 text.

Are there IPv6 ISPs out there who would allocate an additional (say) /60 if= the CER requested an additional prefix? =A0Would it not be simpler to stat= e that the prefix in use in the homenet from any ISP should be contiguous, = and sufficient in size for the homenet's requirement, as per 6177 (whic= h recommends "significantly more than a single /64"?)

Tim
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homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--bcaec55556905a7b9f04d7d40324-- From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 13:12:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5DB11E8134 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:12:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CL2JsvpAa2M7 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71F211E80A5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DKBCtN017186 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:11:12 -0700 Message-ID: <5140DD60.7040303@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:11:12 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1019; t=1363205472; x=1364069472; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20namespaces |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=+U0k8wx3Bhv7E6F8xpY10Hq9pIIygXb8xoOZUMbNgYM=; b=fU1P5/tTU4s+okRjbDNG1OInpZtMTCSOz1sEueJkfUJ9LEwlNRBf5lhw7z 9ihmZpMbEhps1gEX5NxqTs+IZtBhwyZWTNa3eXIuDJNLPqV4lNixA55YzzNJ iuHSlaqBebOCsJhfFvwq2FM4X9fEWEuT/SJdrUDMN31KCOUvVQAIE=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: [homenet] namespaces X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:12:05 -0000 On 03/13/2013 11:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: > >> 3.7.3 Namespaces >> >> It's not clear to me why a single namespace is "desirable". Do rebellious teenagers >> really want to be part of their fuddy-duddy parent's namespace? Does it even >> matter, architecturally? At least some motivation would be helpful. Part of my >> uncomfort here is that there is a hidden assumption that a "home" is an indivisible >> unit. Is that really true? > A fair point, a homenet realm may have its own namespace, potentially. Or any specific device could always independently use some 3rd party dynamic DNS service. > > The reason I bring this up is that I don't understand why a single namespace is "desirable". What are the implications if that is not the case? What assumedly bad thing will happen if that's not the case? What goodness flows if it is? If there's some hidden assumption here, it would be nice for it to be made explicit. If there really is no motivation for this, it should just be deleted. Mike From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 13:14:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C1221F8AE3 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:14:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jXCEHBhkWSPv for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4441421F8ADC for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DKEPHA018253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:14:25 -0700 Message-ID: <5140DE20.9030204@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:14:24 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=694; t=1363205665; x=1364069665; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20isp's=20as=20namespace=20providers |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=BqepRE0pumDKlwCqgNm9uLwh8/169T3aPH6/ZSVi0BI=; b=Ghlrvg1J94OdmxAf4bd1p625ocVnZwUoVUenDZbTFInI65xY5jIvbGXdA0 Z01i6ik4LcgEKjDIo8z5DLOy7STsPduEbAfK6RmDvTe4isCG3FOnLeluN7mJ dV4p+WtfqEBZinutHXwO98+JlGLUgOkzhlB9T3Sy+ddicDlW8P75k=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: [homenet] isp's as namespace providers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:14:57 -0000 On 03/13/2013 11:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: > > I'm not sure why ISP provided naming should be considered the default: we really > don't know what will be the case, and obviously ISP's have a big downside both > from changing ISP's, as well as the multiple-ISP's standpoint. I think that we can more > safely say that this service is just some "cloud" service provided somewhere on the > net since there isn't any locality requirement that I'm aware of. > Downgraded to 'likely'. > Why is it "likely"? This can very easily be rewritten to be agnostic as to who provides a global naming service for a homenet. If there isn't anything extenuating, that is what should be done. Mike From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 13:15:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0873C11E813B for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:15:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aP1aIyeuklrD for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942EC11E8115 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKFJaH027265 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:15:19 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DKFJaH027265 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363205719; bh=whNdnl40y5/5trW+qw4nPXCS8SE=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=GB1Djwc+7guQBTBgT0QVWSo+slwZ5mX+iottE8YBFwcOChxC4LlpI+DZhprMgTMMF xVHCnvv9QjKOjqysA547umML0caqrMg8SJCWHUOZP3K8Ua93LWjYGLGH11760VxFlW v60McXz+NvuxOloKvLGkNaAyYsNVVPuSTvwxQr44= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CKFJ0430612631uN ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:15:19 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKFE91004956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:15:15 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <17834.1362794720@sandelman.ca> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:15:14 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C818@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <20130305224758.7FBBA306D1A2@drugs.dv.isc.org> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6113025C902@GAALPA1MSGUSR9L.ITServices.sbc.com> <17834.1362794720@sandelman.ca> <3C2EF346-0BD9-48C9-92DD-600FE0D214B1@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CKFJ043061263100; tid=p2CKFJ0430612631uN; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DKFJaH027265 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] ISP-delegated IPv6 prefixes (3.4.1) in draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:15:27 -0000 On 9 Mar 2013, at 02:05, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >>>>>> "STARK," =3D=3D STARK, BARBARA H writes: > STARK> Switching ISPs is not an option at this time. This is the > STARK> only provider who offers something close to 30Mbps at a > STARK> consumer-friendly price. I'm not going to move, either. In > STARK> the world of trade-offs and doing what's right for me, the > STARK> /64 is among the least of my concerns. For IETF homenet to > STARK> attempt to influence CE router vendors to force me to care, >=20 > I think you should, until your ISP and your CE router are sorted out, > turn off your IPv6 at your router, and just use Teredo or an explicit > tunnel with sixxs.net for your work-at-home IPv6 needs. >=20 > I don't think that homenet should accomodate the particular set of > constraints that you have. I believe that they will go away. >=20 > (me: I prefer end to end connectivity over the multi-dozen-megabit/s > consumer-style, high-latency, bufferbloated incument telco junk. Mind > you, they can't even spell IPv6...) The candidate -08 has a reference to BCP 157. And text basically as per Ran stated. If you get a /64, then if you're = in a single subnet dual-stack network you may well be fine. But you = can't expect to route to further subnets internally under the = architecture as defined (though you are of course free to manually = configure bridging mode or NPTv6 yourself...). Tim= From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 13:27:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CFA11E809C for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:27:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xbqkncUhZQhw for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 718DF21F8DB9 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKRQPE029750 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:27:26 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DKRQPE029750 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363206446; bh=Tbwoql2bhZDEcJX1hbJUIyy1Jho=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=nsW5FP9gn0GA94Ga5dgPX29J0zUgq7c7RBjrbNqDPax85EqoMfIO4EzOnrnDTneKn QMuV8j0f8rvKUXqAWeHPMJ4bnO0qU2R2o7NBXCpn+Hdl93r/UZXv5G8mzB2IgVdb44 EUyu48OMiM0xd68DeHQTLi9ysIm7HqIMDOhbLzeg= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CKRQ0430612727Ln ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:27:26 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKR2Hd008484 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:27:03 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:27:02 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <8483D320-7461-43BF-B8AB-10F0E1BDAD35@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CKRQ043061272700; tid=p2CKRQ0430612727Ln; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DKRQPE029750 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:27:41 -0000 On 6 Mar 2013, at 04:45, Mark Townsley wrote: > Ultimately, I would like to see a host in a homenet with multiple = prefixes have at least the same information for guiding source address = selection as a host which is directly connected to multiple networks = with multiple interfaces.=20 This is hinted at in the arch text. The implementation demonstrated at IETF85 shows how src/dst routing can = be used. I believe that's being presented briefly, with an update, = tomorrow. The arch text describes the minimal functionality required. Tim= From yusuke.doi@toshiba.co.jp Wed Mar 13 13:28:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CBF111E80A5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:28:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HoE65FLYdHWX for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imx12.toshiba.co.jp (imx12.toshiba.co.jp [61.202.160.132]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C44211E809C for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tsbmgw-mgw01.tsbmgw-mgw01.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.232.103]) by imx12.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id r2DKSKVj000126 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:28:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbmgw-mgw01 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tsbmgw-mgw01.tsbmgw-mgw01.toshiba.co.jp (8.13.8/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2DKSJVt024077 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:28:19 +0900 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by tsbmgw-mgw01 (JAMES SMTP Server 2.3.1) with SMTP ID 347 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:28:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from arc11.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.90.127]) by tsbmgw-mgw01.tsbmgw-mgw01.toshiba.co.jp (8.13.8/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2DKSJnw024071 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:28:19 +0900 Received: (from root@localhost) by arc11.toshiba.co.jp id r2DKSJoj014464 for homenet@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:28:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from ovp11.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.90.148] by arc11.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id FAA14463; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:28:19 +0900 Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp11.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id r2DKSJBl025044 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:28:19 +0900 (JST) Received: by toshiba.co.jp id r2DKSJVE025843; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:28:19 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:28:17 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <201303132028.r2DKSJVE025843@toshiba.co.jp> To: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk From: DOI Yusuke In-Reply-To: References: <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.3 on Emacs 23.2 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:28:22 -0000 Hi, From: Tim Chown Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? (was: last call comments on section 3.7) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:33:45 +0000 > The need for SD has been implicit from the start of the process. No one else has questioned that need, as yet. If others agree with you, it would be good if they spoke up now. Does enumeration of somewhat-SD-based home appliances help the discussion? At least I can name more than a few based on UPnP, DLNA, ECHONET, ... Yusuke From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 13:35:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE5621F89B5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:35:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.246 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.246 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.247, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XfRJWGaYnqB0 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF3521F8976 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKZ9bD031680 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:35:09 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DKZ9bD031680 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363206910; bh=gvH43OhDOS226YUy0zFQXPmo1gM=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=m/GCW4YRvDAxfLp/VuRd7hOuXTt7MKoTGV7l87bi/FT2Vr0N7ayfl+lRkq7VBhbgU 19biopjA+ni4NkNtBfFSJF+z4RxeUObTZxAljne5uY9HFIr5hyLpd/8BzJJRy5jSpF OVAecLJhTBDludI56eO6bEIVGYKoHRMpFyYk23rk= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CKZ904306127922g ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:35:09 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKXkjE010645 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:33:47 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <20130304.210355.1770591644997606743.fujiwara@wide.ad.jp> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:33:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <20130304.210355.1770591644997606743.fujiwara@wide.ad.jp> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CKZ9043061279200; tid=p2CKZ904306127922g; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DKZ9bD031680 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:35:20 -0000 On 4 Mar 2013, at 12:03, Kazunori Fujiwara wrote: > last call comment to draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 >=20 > * Site local address only segments. >=20 > Some sensors do not need global unicast addresses. In many cases, > they need to connect their controller only. >=20 > If this type of segments are useful, please add this in Section 2.1 > as "site only network". (filtering also support this type of network) >=20 > # homenet may be mix of GUA only, SLA only, GUA+SLA. The ULA-only case is clear for certain types of devices. If a device = has GUA-only, that implies non-use of ULAs. > * Section 3.1.2 Minimize changes to hosts and routers >=20 > In my opinion, changes to routers are easier than changes to hosts. > I prefer adding such line: > If we need some changes for routers or hosts, > choose changes of routers rather than changes of hosts. I would agree. I'd like to hear more views on this though. > * Service Discovery >=20 > Please add references to Service Discovery. >=20 > Are current Service Discoveries implemented as Bonjour, UPnP or > Service Location Protocol ? It could be any of the above. Tim >=20 > Regards, >=20 > -- > Kazunori Fujiwara, JPRS/WIDE, fujiwara@jprs.co.jp/fujiwara@wide.ad.jp >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 13:36:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58D421F8D43 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:36:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g4UvtfrBuPAW for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B119521F8A41 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKa1Si031921 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:36:01 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DKa1Si031921 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363206962; bh=YUhcU1dPEjiaQ5FRz5MiL6uI/EA=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=gIKKcVVEpm+ANej0MGRoX/Lyc66aMnKVsO4LUd4w5DUqDE9TtVT5M3Yyjqve8nega volD6or2JwUelOWT2y7zyE66Zb74oVl9Fo9+72sbUA+plmKU5a4Jr9e1UmMC85Eo5Q 8pXbdMjbx1w0yZhPRd76KUjqkOdYhZRjQcsyr9AA= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CKa10430612805EW ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:36:02 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKZv7n011216 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:35:58 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6E45BB@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:35:58 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6D5EF0@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6E45BB@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CKa1043061280500; tid=p2CKa10430612805EW; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DKa1Si031921 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:36:08 -0000 On 5 Mar 2013, at 17:52, Michael Behringer (mbehring) = wrote: > Our draft shows a way to do that in a relatively simple and secure = way. I believe this is a fundamental requirement in a homenet; there are = other ways to more or less achieve this goal - that needs to be = discussed. But we should have the discussion.=20 If you have text to propose for the arch text, please do so. Tim= From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 13:48:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90AD21F8DDB for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:48:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.537 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6GEavK195Mo0 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E400021F8DD5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKmXRP002129 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:48:33 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DKmXRP002129 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363207714; bh=wILc2t79S0K1YO/NzqX7Bs3l/Kc=; h=From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=yNye1R1EI5DcBfNVTx/5MpTV4GohC06YlSP6LwddUVOHVLXLmAMYA8aN/Gbavhjg4 TBqR//T9U4xMCxdbAcE7MGxcUcYaRCvaG1lP4c8b07bgRmJFeG+I/XY54KBS7x0kVM RDlADsicNivPcnokMzZ8WjBMQNQGKRBStZuv+lRA= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CKmX0430612898Kr ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:48:33 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKlE8v014513 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:47:15 GMT From: Tim Chown Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D02CB7D1-D534-44F7-B53A-F35D984328DC" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:47:14 +0000 References: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> <513D286E.5050007@zytor.com> <51e70487-bee2-4bb8-bc84-6f227b7e9b67@email.android.com> <6039FC64-CF51-4F5F-8319-EF02F0BE02B2@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <583E836C-D76C-44B3-BAFB-0F204138E96F@fugue.com> <90FB2F6E-2C2C-48E6-BA7E-BB84D05FA953@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CKmX043061289800; tid=p2CKmX0430612898Kr; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DKmXRP002129 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:48:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D02CB7D1-D534-44F7-B53A-F35D984328DC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On 13 Mar 2013, at 20:11, Andrew McGregor wrote: > I've met one that will allocate more /48s if you ask, and have met a = DHCPv6 server implementation that would give you a new prefix if you = generated a new client ID. So, yes, they easily can exist and in at = least one case do. OK, thanks, but presumably the ISP wouldn't hand out such additional = prefixes indefinitely? =20 The question is whether the arch text should say "if you don't get a big = enough prefix, before entering some error state, try asking for = more..."? Tim >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tim Chown = wrote: >=20 > On 11 Mar 2013, at 12:45, Ted Lemon wrote: >=20 > > On Mar 11, 2013, at 1:31 AM, H. Peter Anvin wrote: > >> That doesn't give the option to the server, though... the client = has to ask for one or the other. > > > > What I would suggest is that if the client doesn't get a big enough = allocation, it request an additional allocation, rather than that it try = to anticipate what the server will return and prepare for the worst. >=20 > I agree with Ran's original comments. These are reinforced in the = candidate -08 text. >=20 > Are there IPv6 ISPs out there who would allocate an additional (say) = /60 if the CER requested an additional prefix? Would it not be simpler = to state that the prefix in use in the homenet from any ISP should be = contiguous, and sufficient in size for the homenet's requirement, as per = 6177 (which recommends "significantly more than a single /64"?) >=20 > Tim > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_D02CB7D1-D534-44F7-B53A-F35D984328DC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 andrewmcgr@gmail.com> = wrote:
I've met one that will allocate more /48s = if you ask, and have met a DHCPv6 server implementation that would give = you a new prefix if you generated a new client ID.  So, yes, they = easily can exist and in at least one case = do.

OK, thanks, but presumably the ISP = wouldn't hand out such additional prefixes indefinitely? =  

The question is whether the arch text = should say "if you don't get a big enough prefix, before entering some = error state, try asking for = more..."?

Tim



On Wed, = Mar 13, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> = wrote:

On 11 Mar 2013, at 12:45, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

> On Mar 11, 2013, at 1:31 AM, H. Peter Anvin <hpa@zytor.com> wrote:
>> That doesn't give the option to the server, though... the = client has to ask for one or the other.
>
> What I would suggest is that if the client doesn't get a big enough = allocation, it request an additional allocation, rather than that it try = to anticipate what the server will return and prepare for the worst.

I agree with Ran's original comments.  These are = reinforced in the candidate -08 text.

Are there IPv6 ISPs out there who would allocate an additional (say) /60 = if the CER requested an additional prefix?  Would it not be simpler = to state that the prefix in use in the homenet from any ISP should be = contiguous, and sufficient in size for the homenet's requirement, as per = 6177 (which recommends "significantly more than a single /64"?)

Tim
_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing = list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

= --Apple-Mail=_D02CB7D1-D534-44F7-B53A-F35D984328DC-- From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 13:48:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB34721F8E0A for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:48:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JwJJOmVAc+59 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCABA21F8DFF for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKmZZS002164 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:48:35 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DKmZZS002164 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363207715; bh=FJvqNDer38c0vChc9vhB/WLRTVc=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=r60J8NhtiiVLNrvh4/yLqYlh5A4jv90pyV2UNupj26YWbQsIte+QTtTSkdqfe7kPG TnevT4qSCl1I7Mcs2pS4ZjYXHlRXfJ1GU4ymnBgHN0XKamdBwqckFM+epHTsYMaePe yEmjSEr9t9xXHOFnDhP2A5+ZQv40L0i97g/6yeHE= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CKmZ0430612899QX ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:48:35 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DKmSlT014805 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:48:29 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <5140DD60.7040303@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:48:28 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DD60.7040303@mtcc.com> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CKmZ043061289900; tid=p2CKmZ0430612899QX; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DKmZZS002164 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] namespaces X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:48:41 -0000 On 13 Mar 2013, at 20:11, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/13/2013 11:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: >>=20 >>> 3.7.3 Namespaces >>>=20 >>> It's not clear to me why a single namespace is "desirable". Do = rebellious teenagers >>> really want to be part of their fuddy-duddy parent's namespace? Does = it even >>> matter, architecturally? At least some motivation would be helpful. = Part of my >>> uncomfort here is that there is a hidden assumption that a "home" is = an indivisible >>> unit. Is that really true? >> A fair point, a homenet realm may have its own namespace, = potentially. Or any specific device could always independently use some = 3rd party dynamic DNS service. >=20 > The reason I bring this up is that I don't understand why a single = namespace > is "desirable". What are the implications if that is not the case? = What assumedly > bad thing will happen if that's not the case? What goodness flows if = it is? >=20 > If there's some hidden assumption here, it would be nice for it to be = made explicit. > If there really is no motivation for this, it should just be deleted. It has been reworded to "at least one". It's "desirable" in as much as = not having one is highly undesirable, at least if you want remote = access. Tim= From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 13:54:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C29711E8103 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DjTq2rqPpf6G for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3304C11E80FE for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:4861:f092:b78:b475] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:4861:f092:b78:b475]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 41E5123816EC; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5140DB26.70104@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:54:11 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9C88C455-BB34-4FDA-8BA7-FA19A8E38149@fugue.com> References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DB26.70104@mtcc.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] global vs. local naming X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:54:13 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > All of this is lacking in section 3.7. If I were a contractor using = this "architecture" > I wouldn't know what to build. The architecture document acts as a basis for the work that you, as a = contractor, would build from. You can't build from an architecture = document, unless you are a lot smarter than we are. From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 13:55:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2EFF11E80DC for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:55:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WmyeBH2Q8kql for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AEB211E809C for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:4861:f092:b78:b475] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:4861:f092:b78:b475]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2E2B3238173B; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5140DD60.7040303@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:55:42 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DD60.7040303@mtcc.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] namespaces X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:55:43 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:11 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > The reason I bring this up is that I don't understand why a single = namespace > is "desirable". What are the implications if that is not the case? = What assumedly > bad thing will happen if that's not the case? What goodness flows if = it is? If you have devices that need to be addressed outside of the homenet, = then you have to have a global namespace, and of course that means a = single namespace. And if you wander to another homenet, and devices = are in the same namespace, you may wind up turning up your host's (or = their neighbor's) air conditioning. From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 13:57:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CA911E811D for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:57:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bdr32+Zs2Iy2 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E96DD11E80FE for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:4861:f092:b78:b475] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:4861:f092:b78:b475]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5653523816EC; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:57:04 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> <513D286E.5050007@zytor.com> <51e70487-bee2-4bb8-bc84-6f227b7e9b67@email.android.com> <583E836C-D76C-44B3-BAFB-0F204138E96F@fugue.com> <6039FC64-CF51-4F5F-8319-EF02F0BE02B2@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: Tim Chown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:57:05 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 3:59 PM, Tim Chown wrote: > Are there IPv6 ISPs out there who would allocate an additional (say) = /60 if the CER requested an additional prefix? I know of at least one. > Would it not be simpler to state that the prefix in use in the homenet = from any ISP should be contiguous, and sufficient in size for the = homenet's requirement, as per 6177 (which recommends "significantly more = than a single /64"?) Yes, it would be simpler. :) From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 13:57:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3F811E80DC for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:57:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sKlCESw0MQBJ for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E331E11E809C for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:4861:f092:b78:b475] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:4861:f092:b78:b475]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0835623816EC; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:57:47 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5B0EDCC5-D696-4C66-8EBC-ABE3DDF3AD26@fugue.com> References: <752299AA-32BB-402F-9A6F-291EB494E03E@gmail.com> <6E7EAAD5-5EC0-46B0-8946-1E730A43B3D2@fugue.com> <513D286E.5050007@zytor.com> <51e70487-bee2-4bb8-bc84-6f227b7e9b67@email.android.com> <6039FC64-CF51-4F5F-8319-EF02F0BE02B2@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <583E836C-D76C-44B3-BAFB-0F204138E96F@fugue.com> <90FB2F6E-2C2C-48E6-BA7E-BB84D05FA953@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: Tim Chown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Scope of Work: broken kit & deployments out-of-scope X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:57:51 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:47 PM, Tim Chown wrote: > The question is whether the arch text should say "if you don't get a = big enough prefix, before entering some error state, try asking for = more..."? I think it should, although we haven't said how to ask for more, so we'd = want to address that in future work once the architecture document is = done. From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 13:58:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4911311E8122 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:58:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gFk7SnVBOi-Q for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F198111E8125 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DKvVuX000442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:57:32 -0700 Message-ID: <5140E83B.6030609@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:57:31 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DD60.7040303@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=662; t=1363208252; x=1364072252; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20namespaces |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=XJb2ydVYdnXCeX2wu9gdx19urr02l7feJ7xBUHfl4FQ=; b=I6z/WjphZV7dzvOAdpqJC2oSC2iwlzTeEJmVlRT5v2L3dHpksMLsutSIUR mBRx7XHlVzCEFaXimtPRV67T9PyPMr8pliMEU4QtrGHZjqPKL9RMD/z/H+KJ cYv8YLGOefyVjyCMAv5zn8mE3ZouPGF2aCeZxyTB9fMy+NMLAYggo=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] namespaces X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:58:10 -0000 On 03/13/2013 01:48 PM, Tim Chown wrote: > >> The reason I bring this up is that I don't understand why a single namespace >> is "desirable". What are the implications if that is not the case? What assumedly >> bad thing will happen if that's not the case? What goodness flows if it is? >> >> If there's some hidden assumption here, it would be nice for it to be made explicit. >> If there really is no motivation for this, it should just be deleted. > It has been reworded to "at least one". It's "desirable" in as much as not having one is highly undesirable, at least if you want remote access. > > Ah, one vs none, not one vs many. Ok. Mike From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 13:58:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF7211E811E for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:58:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3biSiKcoWfUy for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AC811E80FE for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:4861:f092:b78:b475] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:4861:f092:b78:b475]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3B4A123816EC; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:58:36 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? (was: last call comments on section 3.7) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:58:39 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 3:24 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > Service discovery is *not* common. You have never gone to a printer dialog and found your printer? If you = have ever done that, you are using service discovery. From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 14:01:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C6621F8DBB for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:01:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vzXL-hDVr5Ug for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB4921F8D2F for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:4861:f092:b78:b475] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:4861:f092:b78:b475]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5EBAB23816EC; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:01:11 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5140DE20.9030204@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:01:11 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <00595AE4-BB82-4A7C-899F-8411250C644D@fugue.com> References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DE20.9030204@mtcc.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] isp's as namespace providers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:01:13 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > Why is it "likely"? This can very easily be rewritten to be agnostic = as to > who provides a global naming service for a homenet. If there isn't = anything > extenuating, that is what should be done. I think agnostic is good, but illustrative examples are good as well, = and the two I would suggest are that the ISP provides a mechanism for = naming, and that a cloud service provides a mechanism for naming. = Obviously you can also set up your own name service, but I don't think = this is a good example for the use case we are trying to address. From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 14:09:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BB821F8E2C for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ivu+IiICHwh8 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE6421F8E3B for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DL8f6K004557 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:08:42 -0700 Message-ID: <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:08:41 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=487; t=1363208922; x=1364072922; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Why=20do=20homenets=20need= 20SD? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Ted=20Lemon=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=VS2RRRy2jqQLDXJPf6oXGTlD6kylaIOEuzhpFB6ONeg=; b=gTz5rCAo5vEyKcUdB9Iw/HuTxrKjSdTS0r/rTyEI5/yud7ZK4mYnraCd3k jqs3TK9jqL07DYG+RmgKuJq+XPmrjJJd+x+3hg4ljbzuJEQ+4TdXCQLSqDdy c+tHugPxJVrP1tcMV75DCdm48Ki1Me1RiQUv9O9wYXy85XDjQ/1p0=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:09:26 -0000 On 03/13/2013 01:58 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 13, 2013, at 3:24 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> Service discovery is *not* common. > You have never gone to a printer dialog and found your printer? If you have ever done that, you are using service discovery. In fact, I haven't. Or at least not since it was real NBP instead of NBPv2. I don't have any statistics but it wouldn't shock me to hear that usb vs. networked printers are 10:1 more common. Mike From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 14:12:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD27821F8E53 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:12:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xToIKk-es36r for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF1021F8E23 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DLCDEt005745 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:12:13 -0700 Message-ID: <5140EBAD.8050806@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:12:13 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DE20.9030204@mtcc.com> <00595AE4-BB82-4A7C-899F-8411250C644D@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <00595AE4-BB82-4A7C-899F-8411250C644D@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=880; t=1363209133; x=1364073133; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20isp's=20as=20namespace=20pr oviders |Sender:=20 |To:=20Ted=20Lemon=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=3NThlRQikBVFQ0/ReEAeITUdo5BXiBJAB5kVSO4isIo=; b=sKWglrlnykQpsNU8Qn7F9QMQNTP+qfVn76lXkiq86Yk4VXex7a1/CRVpyq BTfq9Wj+Ile9IlQuxcOM6aX5dkMNc3XvFUuPGaYB6xd6hUuPsJShkS+U/bl0 13fA8CJRIlW88KJds7GzwCgAurMw6PXxgHdVF3Xab2K6jqiaPLeYE=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] isp's as namespace providers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:12:51 -0000 On 03/13/2013 02:01 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> Why is it "likely"? This can very easily be rewritten to be agnostic as to >> who provides a global naming service for a homenet. If there isn't anything >> extenuating, that is what should be done. > I think agnostic is good, but illustrative examples are good as well, and the two I would suggest are that the ISP provides a mechanism for naming, and that a cloud service provides a mechanism for naming. Obviously you can also set up your own name service, but I don't think this is a good example for the use case we are trying to address. Illustrative works for me too. The reason I push back on "ISP" is because it can be misconstrued to have some topological and/or security necessity. Which I'm pretty sure the authors are not intending. Mike From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 14:13:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CD621F8E5B for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:13:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mwtmFd76AtGE for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB5E21F8E23 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:4861:f092:b78:b475] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:4861:f092:b78:b475]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1739123816EC; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:13:00 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:13:01 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:13:02 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 5:08 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > I don't have any statistics but it wouldn't shock me to hear that usb vs. > networked printers are 10:1 more common. It would shock me. Bonjour printing Just Works. From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 14:25:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AAE511E8142 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:25:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WsAUZo-q3LCD for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A51611E8106 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DLOZwf009872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:24:36 -0700 Message-ID: <5140EE93.1000308@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:24:35 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DD60.7040303@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=789; t=1363209876; x=1364073876; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20namespaces |Sender:=20 |To:=20Ted=20Lemon=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=GZSgs6tzx8AED2nGQsfa4ym2Ww3QX9KmPlilYRvC2H4=; b=nXJIPJpJSlstWUMqxT4rNkjH83jT1zmhjFlE48KYUYy6VHAh7o85KU41Kz Wa30YfW+Cdbfx0LdcckHFbJNVkPtKkkSQV17SbH9k81ykpBVCniKA9ktKft3 pok/GTFvCG76PboNnpSDe+f/LKjotIAHvGYHuPNiw3piD207GfwGc=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] namespaces X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:25:12 -0000 On 03/13/2013 01:55 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:11 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> The reason I bring this up is that I don't understand why a single namespace >> is "desirable". What are the implications if that is not the case? What assumedly >> bad thing will happen if that's not the case? What goodness flows if it is? > If you have devices that need to be addressed outside of the homenet, then you have to have a global namespace, and of course that means a single namespace. And if you wander to another homenet, and devices are in the same namespace, you may wind up turning up your host's (or their neighbor's) air conditioning. > And this is both orthogonal to my concern, as well as worth mentioning in this section, I think. Mike From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 14:49:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8C411E80AE for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:49:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NohgX0Tt2hRN for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2872F11E80A3 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DLmeMV018035 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:48:40 -0700 Message-ID: <5140F438.3020304@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:48:40 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4962; t=1363211320; x=1364075320; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20mdns=20populating=20repositories? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=3F0rYsJ8wSsauo68k9RdwSuYdfHZa/b5AF8Z+a1Y+fw=; b=aKyIpm7YwjicdIpT8Zmx31WXjKruCiLKbVIrsDLrgylFwH3EGgshABqSPc 5NgRMklGm5l2tPRRGfNvxo1Bxm1UGH6G39IiQC291uJqwNi/ydpRfHvEFzAt Mltv4KqB6xMNe6NOfADPx3re5vQiXlABru6lxLLR151KjEVH9NL9Q=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: [homenet] mdns populating repositories? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:49:19 -0000 On 03/13/2013 11:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: > >> I don't understand what mDNS has to do with service announcement to a >> repository. mDNS is a way to find names in lieu of a repository (that is, each >> device is it's own authoritative name service). Sending naming/service announcements >> to a repository is an adjunct of the repository protocols and has nothing to do >> with mDNS that I can figure out. > Well, a device in a homenet today will commonly use both unicast and multicast DNS, the former for internal devices, the latter for external. I'm responding in particular to: " For a service such as mDNS to coexist with an Internet name service, where the homenet is preferably using a global domain name, it is desirable that the zeroconf devices have a way to add their names to the global name space in use. One solution could be for zeroconf protocols to be used to indicate global FQDNs, e.g. an mDNS service could return a FQDN in a SRV record." This just doesn't make any sense to me. mDNS is typically used to do an A/AAAA lookup. And mDNS isn't global, so it wouldn't do me much good if I were in Brazil. So I don't think this is a solution at all, and it definitely doesn't seem to have anything to do with mDNS. To my mind, what would be useful is for the device to populate a repository (zeroconf or not) via an existing or tweaked DNS protocols (ixfr?). Mike > >> More speculation about mDNS vs. SRV records without any motivation of what >> is trying to be accomplished and why... it just sort of appears out of thin air here. > So the important aspect is that devices can register themselves with a name service that would typically be hosted on the CER (and secondaried elsewhere). > >> I think more thought needs to be given to adding names automatically to a >> repository. It mentions that a user may choose to do so, but what if there's >> no meaningful "user" such as my IP-speakers with no UI? Should it try or not? >> (I think it ought, but that's me). More to the point: what are the implications >> of things that don't have meaningful UI's. > To be defined. But noted. > >> There should be some more discussion of the differences between a locally >> significant domain name, and a globally significant one. What happens >> when people camp on names they don't own? How might that interact with >> mobility? > Not sure what you mean here. > >> More speculation about dnydns without any motivation for why it's interesting >> and/or significant. >> >> There seems to be no mention of the relationship between local/home resolvers >> if the local resolver isn't the authoritative resolver. In particular, it's not an >> unusual situation to have a "cloud" (read: high bandwidth, well connected...) >> authoritative dns be a slave to a local master. Or if you don't like that, some >> other way to achieve similar goals of not wanting my home network have to >> know how to deal with ddos's on nameservers, as one for-instance. > I think that's not precluded. The key bit is the homenet must be able to operate if disconnected. > > >> 3.7.5 Independent Operation >> >> I'm generally skeptical that anything these days works well when you pull >> the plug on the Internet. There are so many hidden assumptions about >> connectivity that I don't think we should try to do anything heroic here. > Sure. It's a fair goal though. > >> 3.7.6 Considerations for LLN's >> >> First I'll say that it's not just LLN's that have problems with chatty networks: >> it's anything with a battery. This should be rewritten from that perspective and >> stay away from speculation about whether proxies are needed for a particular >> technology that doesn't necessarily have consensus. >> >> More to the point: this architecture should have considerations throughout about >> battery driven devices and their considerations, and not just whether mdns will >> cause daily trips to the store to buy new batteries. > One for Anders to comment on, perhaps... > >> 3.7.7 DNS resolver discovery >> >> I don't understand this section: is there anything we need to do beyond what >> SLAAC and/or DHCP do now? If there is, it might be nice to enumerate what >> the problem is. > This came up from Jari's own experiments. It implies stateless DHCP is available, or that the resolver address(es) are propagated by some other means. > >> --- >> Overall, section 3.7 leaves me more confused than enlightened. It reads more >> like a stream of consciousness than an architecture. > For the reason Ted has observed. I agree it needs to be tighter, preferably. > > tim > >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 15:02:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFEFF21F8A6E for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:02:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dTrSIW9GFM-J for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF1111E80A6 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DM1bdi022408 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:01:38 -0700 Message-ID: <5140F741.6010306@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:01:37 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3364; t=1363212098; x=1364076098; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20camping=20on=20names |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=WNsRBSY+lm7Uj7stsySeDoy4TPy5Pycc6y4ZlwyVS4k=; b=lum3iWB4zTx5ZQ2r/yPpUHfHlZn0BXJzP7fOiHrwmlupZcEdWCpTVGzIGX Pp23C7yNQyeo1aA/t/gPPxE78BYzid3ZbbuJqknwYi/IAl2TAVBT8i16HvVy tO5bCBFOjx+MZO79yLPr+FqViUqLtgIiAyVMJ10fLdrpZk2jPAKxs=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: [homenet] camping on names X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:02:16 -0000 On 03/13/2013 11:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: >> There should be some more discussion of the differences between a locally >> significant domain name, and a globally significant one. What happens >> when people camp on names they don't own? How might that interact with >> mobility? > Not sure what you mean here. If I own my CER and it hosts a DNS repository and doles itself out as the name server via slaac/dhcp, I can set my namespace up to be pretty much whoever i'd like to be. If I want my homenet to be jethrotull.com, I can do that even though I don't control the global name. Are there implications for that? Might we try to convince router manufacturers to not allow you to do that (at least easily)? What happens if my neighbor attaches to my fake jethrotull.com? Any weirdness there? Mike > >> More speculation about dnydns without any motivation for why it's interesting >> and/or significant. >> >> There seems to be no mention of the relationship between local/home resolvers >> if the local resolver isn't the authoritative resolver. In particular, it's not an >> unusual situation to have a "cloud" (read: high bandwidth, well connected...) >> authoritative dns be a slave to a local master. Or if you don't like that, some >> other way to achieve similar goals of not wanting my home network have to >> know how to deal with ddos's on nameservers, as one for-instance. > I think that's not precluded. The key bit is the homenet must be able to operate if disconnected. > > >> 3.7.5 Independent Operation >> >> I'm generally skeptical that anything these days works well when you pull >> the plug on the Internet. There are so many hidden assumptions about >> connectivity that I don't think we should try to do anything heroic here. > Sure. It's a fair goal though. > >> 3.7.6 Considerations for LLN's >> >> First I'll say that it's not just LLN's that have problems with chatty networks: >> it's anything with a battery. This should be rewritten from that perspective and >> stay away from speculation about whether proxies are needed for a particular >> technology that doesn't necessarily have consensus. >> >> More to the point: this architecture should have considerations throughout about >> battery driven devices and their considerations, and not just whether mdns will >> cause daily trips to the store to buy new batteries. > One for Anders to comment on, perhaps... > >> 3.7.7 DNS resolver discovery >> >> I don't understand this section: is there anything we need to do beyond what >> SLAAC and/or DHCP do now? If there is, it might be nice to enumerate what >> the problem is. > This came up from Jari's own experiments. It implies stateless DHCP is available, or that the resolver address(es) are propagated by some other means. > >> --- >> Overall, section 3.7 leaves me more confused than enlightened. It reads more >> like a stream of consciousness than an architecture. > For the reason Ted has observed. I agree it needs to be tighter, preferably. > > tim > >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 15:09:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724E421F85EB for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.057, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pzGZjA+mu-Fx for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6EC21F8570 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DM9KtX022069 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:09:20 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DM9KtX022069 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363212561; bh=VIaIuhbv8SGw0c5erc/cx+zOo0E=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=pFxV9WO+nrNwfdPwD4uMI92L3z7Pk3YyEXHy+1ZkYj70boiwwhqdp3ysKLTXth9rq c+eoZYJosAYHrCqD+hKwTkWeEt3S9M91khSo07VNlV0v6riupqCWsxZ5butSJbjhv9 TKaMdixyKfQSpFfKsSWJHbGte1kT0OnPaX+h5//o= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CM9K0430613625si ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:09:20 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DM9A9M006957 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:09:12 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <43238C9F8B23DA44B42A78D0129283E017FC9051@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:09:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <43238C9F8B23DA44B42A78D0129283E017FC9051@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> <1DB0FF39-44E7-4ABF-AF75-800067D17884@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CM9K043061362500; tid=p2CM9K0430613625si; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DM9KtX022069 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] New Version Notification for draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-01.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:09:26 -0000 On 26 Feb 2013, at 15:46, Chris Grundemann = wrote: > Hail Homenet, >=20 > FYI - We have updated our "HIPnet" draft. This -01 is a minor update, > which includes almost exclusively editorial fixes. We have taken note = of > all feedback received thus far, both on and off list, and will work to > incorporate that feedback in further revisions as it makes sense. Hi Chris, It's good to see a 'lightweight' alternative being put forward, with a = demo here. =46rom the arch text point of view I agree it's largely compatible with = -07, assuming the text about 'routing protocol' were rewritten to = 'routing functionality', since you install routes automatically up/down. The two points that are partly met are the prefix utilisation efficiency = (since it's hierarchical DHCP-PD) and whether arbitrary topologies are = supported (given the use of ND in a 'spanning tree' like approach). But = it does tick a lot of boxes, and uses existing protocols. Topics such = as realms and borders, and naming/SD are orthogonal to how the prefixes = and routing is configured. The interesting question for the WG is how such an approach could = interoperate with (say) a homenet solution using zOSPF. Are the homenet = solutions 'all or nothing', or is there something we could do now to = improve the chances of future interoperability if hipnet is deployed = now? Tim= From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 15:14:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BC521F86C4 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:14:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lDS2HR9qz5nd for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8973921F8411 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:5926:41d2:30e0:9e39] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:5926:41d2:30e0:9e39]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 140FE23816EC; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5140F438.3020304@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:14:24 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8045BE4F-FA2D-4E2C-AFBA-9C174DF76B15@fugue.com> References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140F438.3020304@mtcc.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] mdns populating repositories? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:14:34 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 5:48 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > This just doesn't make any sense to me. mDNS is typically used to do = an > A/AAAA lookup. And mDNS isn't global, so it wouldn't do me much good = if > I were in Brazil. So I don't think this is a solution at all, and it = definitely > doesn't seem to have anything to do with mDNS. To my mind, what would > be useful is for the device to populate a repository (zeroconf or not) = via > an existing or tweaked DNS protocols (ixfr?). Stuart Cheshire has a draft describing how to populate a DNS zone using = mDNS. It's not a bad idea, although I don't think the architecture = document should mention it=97there is at least one other alternative, = and by mentioning solely mDNS we are making a decision that I don't = think has general agreement. From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Wed Mar 13 15:18:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A631F041A for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:18:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.373 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.373 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.226, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zhO9PykTiKsq for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nominet.org.uk (mx4.nominet.org.uk [213.248.199.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFA621F894D for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:18:58 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:Received:From:To:Subject: Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:Date:Message-ID:References: In-Reply-To:Accept-Language:Content-Language: X-MS-Has-Attach:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:x-originating-ip: Content-Type:Content-ID:Content-Transfer-Encoding: MIME-Version; b=fr8dYQknRA+Rtn32YqKPvVIanQyaopeyC7W2fjxvFG/aj+vHUCldlWOc VJjQS22qIYxE/+lcZCOI6td+E/Mq+DpNH2d2W1kETBMNrKQ8F5J+8+g0N lz3/MCv8FWLbb9C; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1363213138; x=1394749138; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray=20Bellis=20 |Subject:=20Re:=20[homenet]=20Why=20do=20homenets=20need =20SD?|Date:=20Wed,=2013=20Mar=202013=2022:18:55=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20<53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@ wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk>|To:=20"homenet@ietf.org=20G roup"=20|MIME-Version:=201.0 |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20quoted-printable |Content-ID:=20<946992E9AF41F5459B967EB8740CEABD@okna.nom inet.org.uk>|In-Reply-To:=20|References:=20<512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc. com>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<5140D255.6010305 @mtcc.com>=20=0D=0A=20<5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com>=20; bh=c4WW2YY1UqyAgF6z4IGBs1r2fFXZyd2+YE10H9bUn6g=; b=kdKAlUEFaNUVMoIPmiNbJ23ZcHg/GM7BFrIFx1wWF8GESYhtl9IYxzmZ fCAzHdO4s6kyrWz9NdweFUNj3DsFdr8QwfyOus2AgXFNzzdYptpe1u8hP hwedYz/+CyixRfb; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,840,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="38954762" Received: from wds-exc2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.145]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2013 22:18:57 +0000 Received: from WDS-EXC1.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::1593:1394:a91f:8f5f]) by wds-exc2.okna.nominet.org.uk ([fe80::7577:eaca:5241:25d4%17]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:18:56 +0000 From: Ray Bellis To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Thread-Topic: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? Thread-Index: AQHOIC8PRXl8pdqg0EqXodEJ7FsjwJikHriAgAASaAA= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:18:55 +0000 Message-ID: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.2.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <946992E9AF41F5459B967EB8740CEABD@okna.nominet.org.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:18:59 -0000 On 13 Mar 2013, at 17:13, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 13, 2013, at 5:08 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> I don't have any statistics but it wouldn't shock me to hear that usb vs= . >> networked printers are 10:1 more common. >=20 > It would shock me. Bonjour printing Just Works. >=20 It's also the only way I know of to print from an iDevice. The 2.5 year old HP B110a printer I have at home has never been physically = connected to a computer. It has "virtual USB" drivers for Windows, but for everything else it's DNS-= SD. Ray (no hat) From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 15:19:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE971F0D05 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:19:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xDYyc-ofMz+w for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B761F0CE0 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::80:5926:41d2:30e0:9e39] (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:80:5926:41d2:30e0:9e39]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 30AF223816EC; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:19:23 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5140F741.6010306@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:19:22 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <9F31E1E4-A382-4A80-961F-0B457E0AAA05@fugue.com> References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140F741.6010306@mtcc.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] camping on names X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:19:24 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 6:01 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > If I want my homenet to be jethrotull.com, > I can do that even though I don't control the global name. Are there > implications for that? Might we try to convince router manufacturers > to not allow you to do that (at least easily)? What happens if my > neighbor attaches to my fake jethrotull.com? Any weirdness there? I guess we could do that, but it seems somewhat out of scope. From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 15:28:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C51D11E80AE for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:28:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E0c84Tvy0Y4I for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32CA511E80AD for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DMS1LJ031327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:28:02 -0700 Message-ID: <5140FD71.9020608@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:28:01 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1770; t=1363213682; x=1364077682; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20will=20CER's=20be=20globally=20authoritative=20 resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=hcZFUCg7Zn9UeOlQWaeixaqdZQtnPdaOrgj6c4ebnVs=; b=fa5KxdPYORdmPF63xc7vctcZ3csfYTE67qvAJ4bnKt3uC7chjp06jG8amN sRUXYziCQ7Tcu2BQlWHTbVcrGow1lacE90rKoPW+U9c8WSncZ9zH2IWjw4Z/ fiaWDZToD5Xfn69+VqaRaPK/5KjE9WYMsFY7/BSi/j59sd77kFW6k=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:28:55 -0000 On 03/13/2013 11:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: > >> More speculation about dnydns without any motivation for why it's interesting >> and/or significant. >> >> There seems to be no mention of the relationship between local/home resolvers >> if the local resolver isn't the authoritative resolver. In particular, it's not an >> unusual situation to have a "cloud" (read: high bandwidth, well connected...) >> authoritative dns be a slave to a local master. Or if you don't like that, some >> other way to achieve similar goals of not wanting my home network have to >> know how to deal with ddos's on nameservers, as one for-instance. > I think that's not precluded. The key bit is the homenet must be able to operate if disconnected. > [i'm not a namedropper, so pardon me if I screw up nomenclature] I don't think we should be adopting requirements unless they are really "hard" requirements. Disconnected use within a homenet seems more aspirational than hard -- there are just so many things that will puke if the net is down, that I don't think we should worry about it. That said, there seems to be an assumption that the CER would be the logical place to house a repository. I don't recall seeing any discussion about whether it would be what the root resolvers points to. If it is, we definitely have to think about bandwidth, DoS, etc, etc. If it's not the preferred means (which i don't really think it is because if nothing else, you need failover resolvers), I think we need to flesh this out a bit more to say that, so that we can take inventory of whether the CER could reasonably master for a cloud-based slave. Or something else... I'm not wedded to a solution, just want to see more clarity about the problem space. Mike From d.sturek@att.net Wed Mar 13 15:39:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8540311E80FA for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:39:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q+W2kmegFa-5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm24.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm24.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.89]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92A311E80C5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.94.237.127] by nm24.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Mar 2013 22:39:54 -0000 Received: from [68.142.198.200] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Mar 2013 22:39:54 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp101.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Mar 2013 22:39:54 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1363214394; bh=QYn+CA9WwqpKwsSiY2rz1WK/qVVdcLgEPpHsGNs7LVI=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-Rocket-Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; b=WY6R92EfDMUzgHqAr/dOMF59vDpWefItj1/XKs/fUR6/tyjpH6s5GaF0my5SF/ZaJHTEy8oQpLvPkMyvzeM9B2DoMuJe3gKT99+TGXUbl5rI0ZfQgaTkqmZDj9W85hjC47HxZraoKYCtExdQsi46+ds6//6z3R8Qe7c1qzhVN7M= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 243031.17857.bm@smtp101.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: clkNS_IVM1lWcwnDBFp_Aq7jYfT7K5RAQ7vBW1_Fvgod5e1 C7axZnOLD8zQ.IQ08RbruyCEIbe.FeZwe4Dr8.NejnLPLYtrdLNjKWTDafbx wIqc9Je0vkQumspIN4aUPGIzIu7huBejNom13ie2FiNx3fpPfxbj6tOxRQXi Msy_6o2DxvxXBWA.w9INSuaAAZfgtaM8_y5AkW8U1ErinLD6GhtOdxwjHKDf eFrC4GYfyb5.wASzK72OxrbYanx9kAgRnxShEQ1wdGmTKOufoRgD2kHAgABf Q4re0WKYVwN9nWiPcCrrkgrBLBpM8h_Aa2LzaG4Ho0OScE3ETWCgSuhoFdkU gCdvq5rkkiU4JguOY1Fcfe6.tqUAsz0kO6SIjxljLmxCumG1QYqQoQDhXWKM _asNRHO_F2UHD_XJ4z0pItwGmW9pDBpA2e1upIKUSfUpQo1IGP.E6r6SPuJ. Spm8S5lN2jee0Dcg9S1ruPuRcryMn8S06ura0LAepax7ytSOetaNaq1_ZOeS YXjfk X-Yahoo-SMTP: fvjol_aswBAraSJvMLe2r1XTzhBhbFxY8q8c3jo- X-Rocket-Received: from [10.1.1.117] (d.sturek@66.27.60.174 with login) by smtp101.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Mar 2013 15:39:54 -0700 PDT User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:39:49 -0700 From: Don Sturek To: Michael Thomas , Tim Chown Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? In-Reply-To: <5140FD71.9020608@mtcc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:39:55 -0000 Hi Mike, I think disconnected use is a MUST and not aspirational. I would not want my networked printer to stop working, my smart appliances to not be able to read my meter, etc. all because my ISP decided to do some maintenance. Don On 3/13/13 3:28 PM, "Michael Thomas" wrote: >On 03/13/2013 11:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: >> >>> More speculation about dnydns without any motivation for why it's >>>interesting >>> and/or significant. >>> >>> There seems to be no mention of the relationship between local/home >>>resolvers >>> if the local resolver isn't the authoritative resolver. In particular, >>>it's not an >>> unusual situation to have a "cloud" (read: high bandwidth, well >>>connected...) >>> authoritative dns be a slave to a local master. Or if you don't like >>>that, some >>> other way to achieve similar goals of not wanting my home network have >>>to >>> know how to deal with ddos's on nameservers, as one for-instance. >> I think that's not precluded. The key bit is the homenet must be able >>to operate if disconnected. >> > >[i'm not a namedropper, so pardon me if I screw up nomenclature] > >I don't think we should be adopting requirements unless they are really >"hard" requirements. Disconnected use within a homenet seems more >aspirational than hard -- there are just so many things that will puke if >the net is down, that I don't think we should worry about it. > >That said, there seems to be an assumption that the CER would be the >logical place to house a repository. I don't recall seeing any discussion >about whether it would be what the root resolvers points to. If it is, >we definitely have to think about bandwidth, DoS, etc, etc. If it's not >the preferred means (which i don't really think it is because if nothing >else, you need failover resolvers), I think we need to flesh this out a >bit >more to say that, so that we can take inventory of whether the CER could >reasonably master for a cloud-based slave. Or something else... I'm not >wedded to a solution, just want to see more clarity about the problem >space. > >Mike >_______________________________________________ >homenet mailing list >homenet@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 15:50:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C910E11E8103 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:50:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UMlxPsLg7Y5B for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B1821F8BF1 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DMnwQw006588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:49:59 -0700 Message-ID: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:49:58 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Sturek References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=665; t=1363214999; x=1364078999; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Don=20Sturek=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=Cgvm9GUqFaDD9KUeeE1L50vbS8tFEPqsnDYtanb4Hzk=; b=MFg2Q04/TPF1UOZT3E/LGue3/bC1Sh+LhtCFZ8KVZ8aPmooZzHoPZ2xHLq DdKiBg5kjKPpZzg7jLXsLzQFrI49uVGFvWmu0pybnARz3Zrult3/MlRqyJsj khyHgVeDBmZ6j7W0cJwMnaEDw0YH+3LFo9tgHx9yUVV9lU7iIVGXw=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:50:56 -0000 On 03/13/2013 03:39 PM, Don Sturek wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I think disconnected use is a MUST and not aspirational. > > I would not want my networked printer to stop working, my smart appliances > to not be able to read my meter, etc. all because my ISP decided to do > some maintenance. > > Ok, let's assume it's a MUST. That seems to imply that when I'm at home I want my CER to serve up RR's for my domain, but when I'm away something in the cloud is serving up my RR's because I don't want to deal with DoS against my CER, etc, etc. I'm not a namedropper, but that doesn't sound like kosher DNS to me... sort of a weird split horizon. Mike From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 16:44:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CDCE11E80C5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:44:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.545 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.545 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WzlJUpVffJtz for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C8E821F8994 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DNihPt008858 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:44:43 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DNihPt008858 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363218283; bh=fUFUlYhw4vd3t0yiJ9Cdz1yOiS4=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=wnaIgEKMCOB6gBDmWWW4k17BaTq6o3NnTxorPYWtmfl2WK+RwdLjTripMZsm0otiO pJ0r5RWHm+zvTrQ2uqbplXxeHT62Lb0EB6jbNPB823SXy2cTEFDRtTwtFzABXLvw1P ITH9NhmcD0y9jOyv+DmN1YzUuej1Jpknw5rX3W6o= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CNih0430614227BW ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:44:43 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DNicQX023806 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:44:39 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <5140EBAD.8050806@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:44:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DE20.9030204@mtcc.com> <00595AE4-BB82-4A7C-899F-8411250C644D@fugue.com> <5140EBAD.8050806@mtcc.com> <2367390E-C4D1-4849-8D9A-41046D12254A@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CNih043061422700; tid=p2CNih0430614227BW; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DNihPt008858 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] isp's as namespace providers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:44:53 -0000 On 13 Mar 2013, at 21:12, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/13/2013 02:01 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: >> On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:14 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >>> Why is it "likely"? This can very easily be rewritten to be agnostic = as to >>> who provides a global naming service for a homenet. If there isn't = anything >>> extenuating, that is what should be done. >> I think agnostic is good, but illustrative examples are good as well, = and the two I would suggest are that the ISP provides a mechanism for = naming, and that a cloud service provides a mechanism for naming. = Obviously you can also set up your own name service, but I don't think = this is a good example for the use case we are trying to address. >=20 > Illustrative works for me too. The reason I push back on "ISP" is = because it can > be misconstrued to have some topological and/or security necessity. = Which I'm > pretty sure the authors are not intending. Agreed. The "likely" comment stems from the most likely provision coming = from the entity the homenet already has a relationship with by entering = into a contract for connectivity. There are opportunities for other = providers to offer services in this area in the future, for sure. Tim= From mbehring@cisco.com Wed Mar 13 16:46:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A220511E80C5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:46:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lkuP-10V22tC for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504FF21F8CCD for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:46:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=909; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1363218416; x=1364428016; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=+B2U1E2zkn5x9k4VNc0UG0tKgKAFmpTe4ZdKkGTzU/4=; b=lodFpI0kZBFuOXykcSS3+bpXEjYML+Hk8+qDfJAPxvIvDcQOfCNlDbxP wOG/zOtOtOthETy8wSFUsvQXUy9S7dp4mwHHqSkQarTRqxlVimfc+83pM 3NKEJB242u8OgBp8M3zLsr4rjxwEiV9MYLn4bFpfgxVHjeYRpfwlB7Ohh 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AkIFAL8PQVGtJV2b/2dsb2JhbABDDodPvQKBWhZ0gioBAQEDAQEBATc0EAcEAgEIDgMEAQEBChQJBycLFAkIAgQBEgiIBgYMwhYTBI5fOAaCWWEDp1qCSz+CKA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,840,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="187223558" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Mar 2013 23:46:40 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com [173.36.12.87]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2DNkejF004700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:46:40 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.51]) by xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com ([173.36.12.87]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:46:39 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Thread-Topic: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? Thread-Index: AQHOICpq+jFOveg2DEKtcuH+2DGTKpikSXiA Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:46:39 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ECA50@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6D5EF0@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6E45BB@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.83.162] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:46:57 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: homenet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Tim Chown > Sent: 13 March 2013 16:36 > To: homenet@ietf.org Group > Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust- > bootstrap? >=20 > On 5 Mar 2013, at 17:52, Michael Behringer (mbehring) > wrote: >=20 > > Our draft shows a way to do that in a relatively simple and secure way.= I > believe this is a fundamental requirement in a homenet; there are other > ways to more or less achieve this goal - that needs to be discussed. But = we > should have the discussion. >=20 > If you have text to propose for the arch text, please do so. OK, I'll write something up.=20 Michael =20 > Tim > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 16:47:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35DA111E80E0 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:47:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3rK+MiVkl8Oc for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5429B11E80D3 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2DNlH7g024735 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:47:17 -0700 Message-ID: <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:47:17 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ray Bellis References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=977; t=1363218437; x=1364082437; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Why=20do=20homenets=20need= 20SD? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Ray=20Bellis=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=gKRFtqfPNwbQ9cwYct6zPnZt9D0H/ziXIH4aPXjieVQ=; b=uZybC8sr0lf9SHaeh16ZJBwsQ9C+twtdJZXh5IiA/RXu8ParqoYfh4y07f gum3KBzr2DBgi9z+lgkVlEXoPiO9fcZyXtyc+fzHUah/RNh892xhGz8RKnic x0ZQS2jqZnQXGinVrCrNYAod6wExO8bjeYhEkG54aytiCUPr2i65s=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:47:19 -0000 On 03/13/2013 03:18 PM, Ray Bellis wrote: > On 13 Mar 2013, at 17:13, Ted Lemon wrote: > >> On Mar 13, 2013, at 5:08 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >>> I don't have any statistics but it wouldn't shock me to hear that usb vs. >>> networked printers are 10:1 more common. >> It would shock me. Bonjour printing Just Works. >> > It's also the only way I know of to print from an iDevice. > > The 2.5 year old HP B110a printer I have at home has never been physically connected to a computer. > > It has "virtual USB" drivers for Windows, but for everything else it's DNS-SD. > What I find most telling is that after 25 years, printers are still the canonical example of the "need" for SD. But printers have entire programs/wizards that support their existence, so they're really lousy as a canonical example. It would be nice for things to attach themselves to my net and not require their awful apps to be installed. Mike From marka@isc.org Wed Mar 13 16:48:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400B611E8122 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:48:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.487 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.487 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.113, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8-6m+EwpPGPZ for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEAEA11E80D3 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C110C942D; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:47:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1363218485; bh=XXKxZzup4PbKqeAdAfDHUbQogHPLjDsl1Bd6wgNJBGk=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=h1pUsBpx5CpxY/3euKUwwc3xQBy8aPR0RPAisYI2IvC2snVd6mkdFxKCXvv+WMCgR XOpAdbsnNithFJ1wvD1Fri8axOY1LxhbNd9IG04Dj2jTAweV7L02/YnMx1MjMFFXrV TzpR8mt0Re/nU6XCYnnaLrRaw+TOypQPbiLW1gIs= Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:47:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:3161:7e7e:174:c30b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DCB62216C43; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:47:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D47C30D0566; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:47:52 +1100 (EST) To: Michael Thomas From: Mark Andrews References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:49:58 PDT." <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:47:52 +1100 Message-Id: <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-DCC--Metrics: post.isc.org; whitelist Cc: Tim Chown , Don Sturek , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:48:06 -0000 In message <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com>, Michael Thomas writes: > On 03/13/2013 03:39 PM, Don Sturek wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > > > I think disconnected use is a MUST and not aspirational. > > > > I would not want my networked printer to stop working, my smart appliances > > to not be able to read my meter, etc. all because my ISP decided to do > > some maintenance. > > > > > > Ok, let's assume it's a MUST. That seems to imply that when I'm > at home I want my CER to serve up RR's for my domain, but when > I'm away something in the cloud is serving up my RR's because > I don't want to deal with DoS against my CER, etc, etc. > > I'm not a namedropper, but that doesn't sound like kosher DNS to me... > sort of a weird split horizon. It is quite common for the stealth masters to exist (not listed in the NS RRset). It is also quite common for recursive servers to have local copies of zones that are in use locally but not be listed in the NS RRset. The update protocol supports forwarding of signed UPDATE requests where the forwarding server does NOT have the shared secret. homenet <> CER (master) <> listed authoritative servers <> rest of the world Now if you want this to work with the CER turned off while you are away and update to the zone to work then protocol work is needed to get multi-master working. > Mike > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 16:48:44 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FDF311E80D3 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:48:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MKc7RlLBW9pZ for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D327111E80C5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DNmcQs009907 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:48:38 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DNmcQs009907 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363218518; bh=sXgACkZw4LtV7hEcgM0SWR36rEY=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=31rCDgqjWEa/QeZRKmuDasJW/T2vWoF6FO7JvANTLyfkGLLFZzx6zUvLBb1o2Lyhb wroDhI7Vz59JqhjsrCClK0hrLCUMF/B7LqOqlmmJdSN0idPsAWF/bvpKAubCvBIUuh fQGjfVZmbvco/b0WzNUuAe3pu0lHmkmheW9B6NM4= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CNmc0430614251O6 ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:48:38 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DNmBwl024870 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:48:12 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <5140EE93.1000308@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:48:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DD60.7040303@mtcc.com> <5140EE93.1000308@mtcc.com> <3D70C5F1-9571-4DEC-AD0E-638974697F52@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CNmc043061425100; tid=p2CNmc0430614251O6; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DNmcQs009907 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] namespaces X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:48:44 -0000 On 13 Mar 2013, at 21:24, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/13/2013 01:55 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: >> On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:11 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >>> The reason I bring this up is that I don't understand why a single = namespace >>> is "desirable". What are the implications if that is not the case? = What assumedly >>> bad thing will happen if that's not the case? What goodness flows if = it is? >> If you have devices that need to be addressed outside of the homenet, = then you have to have a global namespace, and of course that means a = single namespace. And if you wander to another homenet, and devices = are in the same namespace, you may wind up turning up your host's (or = their neighbor's) air conditioning. >=20 > And this is both orthogonal to my concern, as well as worth mentioning = in > this section, I think. Right, so that's the concern that's been aired over both homenets using = .sitelocal (or similar). I agree with Mike though that we should say "at least one global name = space", as other name spaces may map to the homenet devices/prefixes. = Or you may have a homenet that (for example) has rooms with lodgers who = may want to use their own name spaces in that part of the homenet. Tim= From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 16:51:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013CC21F8CD4 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:51:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AupDC4EUcfG5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0846021F869A for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DNocWO010243 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:50:38 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DNocWO010243 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363218684; bh=BkZNOhfFslRf0NZGmengbWNSipw=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=aeKi5p0TIleXFVkHxYEoFWhLW4nQvUX2ib3MbuFql0U2r1o5YLB7LfErJHPsHxGDt tW4nPiP+qmcflvh9BHh3IsGlXTtF7FfbKKZ0uf+A3DDTrJQFkeT6fD4MNEEAIDNm05 TKRTpWwxGjKUccQFxM9FG1RXeu0Pi08QgRUcqQ28= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CNoc0430614264bD ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:50:38 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DNoGrh025253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:50:18 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <8045BE4F-FA2D-4E2C-AFBA-9C174DF76B15@fugue.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:50:16 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140F438.3020304@mtcc.com> <8045BE4F-FA2D-4E2C-AFBA-9C174DF76B15@fugue.com> <4C90CF5F-0B45-476E-849D-945005CA7C7B@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CNoc043061426400; tid=p2CNoc0430614264bD; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DNocWO010243 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] mdns populating repositories? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:51:28 -0000 On 13 Mar 2013, at 22:14, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 13, 2013, at 5:48 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> This just doesn't make any sense to me. mDNS is typically used to do = an >> A/AAAA lookup. And mDNS isn't global, so it wouldn't do me much good = if >> I were in Brazil. So I don't think this is a solution at all, and it = definitely >> doesn't seem to have anything to do with mDNS. To my mind, what would >> be useful is for the device to populate a repository (zeroconf or = not) via >> an existing or tweaked DNS protocols (ixfr?). >=20 > Stuart Cheshire has a draft describing how to populate a DNS zone = using mDNS. It's not a bad idea, although I don't think the = architecture document should mention it=97there is at least one other = alternative, and by mentioning solely mDNS we are making a decision that = I don't think has general agreement. Agreed - so the word "zeroconf" could be removed from before the word = "device", which then leaves that open. Tim= From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 16:56:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CBA021F8C2A for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:56:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.048, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lUAWXU0DQB14 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4944721F8C1A for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DNuQrH011177 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:56:26 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2DNuQrH011177 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363218986; bh=+UuPVMLp8mNIjg5tNeN6ht/nemI=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=IftanLmVmSBC4KqoPGWH681T+Jiw+A1MgZ2N9L6K/1DHs9gjYdw1NoO6dz+ubXqHP TlN1wxTRibDE66gxOcQeAgoTWjIFjCR2Xc0s3B4XrUZJEB6LMxddS/Y22ZxRHBRXmZ zl0NJKmwH84Uqw3C8RlKjXkQtxVK1Qgcx5boPdHc= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2CNuQ0430614290N7 ret-id none; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:56:26 +0000 Received: from dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-162b.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.22.43]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2DNswxn025880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:55:02 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:54:58 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <8408D370-8426-4692-A61B-040BCD76B85C@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2CNuO043061429000; tid=p2CNuQ0430614290N7; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2DNuQrH011177 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:56:33 -0000 On 13 Mar 2013, at 22:49, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/13/2013 03:39 PM, Don Sturek wrote: >> Hi Mike, >>=20 >> I think disconnected use is a MUST and not aspirational. >>=20 >> I would not want my networked printer to stop working, my smart = appliances >> to not be able to read my meter, etc. all because my ISP decided to = do >> some maintenance. >=20 > Ok, let's assume it's a MUST. That seems to imply that when I'm > at home I want my CER to serve up RR's for my domain, but when > I'm away something in the cloud is serving up my RR's because > I don't want to deal with DoS against my CER, etc, etc. This is an issue discussed in the = mglt-homenet-front-end-naming-delegation and = mglt-homenet-naming-delegation drafts. Though those specific references = will be removed from the final text.=20 If your CER is being DOSed though, chances are you may not be able to = access any home services anyway? Tim From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 17:09:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F15B21F8995 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:09:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M+SmxKJ15vGL for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF4021F898A for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2E09Yr2014036 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:09:34 GMT X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r2E09Yr2014036 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1363219774; bh=IbHc/j+lvNd1StsEZFBe6ZrpUQE=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To; b=r17SkO4+OlKrrsM6giiMK+he2zG1XA0Eg+Jl/XBXjn4zRRxdJUjJ431MF4u0pN2p2 Zcq+qd0G8AYrG5x976UT5UgebsAQp73zTUScw6N9AwmPa5rlEf9kzWPry/ZJMVr+Au xfbr0OnCqsvr05ME6LNGPGyqZ4ySdcYVlll7Ba8Y= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p2D09Y04306143683d ret-id none; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:09:34 +0000 Received: from dhcp-9066.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9066.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.8.102]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2E09Quv028990 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:09:27 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Tim Chown In-Reply-To: <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:09:26 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> <3835B421-D99A-4322-94EA-28258FF43FF2@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p2D09Y043061436800; tid=p2D09Y04306143683d; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r2E09Yr2014036 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:09:38 -0000 On 13 Mar 2013, at 23:47, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/13/2013 03:18 PM, Ray Bellis wrote: >> On 13 Mar 2013, at 17:13, Ted Lemon wrote: >>=20 >>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 5:08 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >>>> I don't have any statistics but it wouldn't shock me to hear that = usb vs. >>>> networked printers are 10:1 more common. >>> It would shock me. Bonjour printing Just Works. >>>=20 >> It's also the only way I know of to print from an iDevice. >>=20 >> The 2.5 year old HP B110a printer I have at home has never been = physically connected to a computer. >>=20 >> It has "virtual USB" drivers for Windows, but for everything else = it's DNS-SD. > What I find most telling is that after 25 years, printers are still = the canonical > example of the "need" for SD. But printers have entire = programs/wizards that > support their existence, so they're really lousy as a canonical = example. It would > be nice for things to attach themselves to my net and not require = their awful apps > to be installed. So you never use music collections on other devices, videos from a video = server, or throw your laptop screen to a local plasma display for easy = viewing by a group? Those are just typical examples of common uses. = The problem though is that without manual intervention you only see the = services in your local subnet. Our university pretty much only has networked printers now, as they're = "managed" and thus need to be monitored by the contractor. My homenet = has two networked printers; I don't want to rely on a specific host = being up to be able to print.=20 Tim= From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 17:10:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546A611E80DC for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:10:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zNq+oF4li1Fi for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FEBF21F89B5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2E0ACxK030331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:10:13 -0700 Message-ID: <51411564.5040404@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:10:12 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <8408D370-8426-4692-A61B-040BCD76B85C@ecs.soton.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1633; t=1363219813; x=1364083813; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=sRMquO6sPPKexqxt/Q5CYqcEdiQ0waXSlBfGLUdpDXc=; b=SP1YeKqWQzC87vgKTIEe8bPWQsvmN5UiPPynKs2H1iFIsEf0veiXWjXtAe JxYaxErk7Fon1mgUvtr9lKeJ/oJ7aRMTW86dtL/lnDV3gcw3n5vEY3Cgg/OQ Kuo0kAISOLGtO+fcO9cywD98orpnl5pZY+TmzZxz+vxih0XZfKnz8=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:10:45 -0000 On 03/13/2013 04:54 PM, Tim Chown wrote: > On 13 Mar 2013, at 22:49, Michael Thomas wrote: > >> On 03/13/2013 03:39 PM, Don Sturek wrote: >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> I think disconnected use is a MUST and not aspirational. >>> >>> I would not want my networked printer to stop working, my smart appliances >>> to not be able to read my meter, etc. all because my ISP decided to do >>> some maintenance. >> Ok, let's assume it's a MUST. That seems to imply that when I'm >> at home I want my CER to serve up RR's for my domain, but when >> I'm away something in the cloud is serving up my RR's because >> I don't want to deal with DoS against my CER, etc, etc. > This is an issue discussed in the mglt-homenet-front-end-naming-delegation and mglt-homenet-naming-delegation drafts. Though those specific references will be removed from the final text. Maybe it would be better if you broke the mdns and dns into separate subsections? It's a little hard to follow because they're two pretty different approaches and it all gets sort of confused. Why will they be removed? Because you don't want to reference an ID? > > If your CER is being DOSed though, chances are you may not be able to access any home services anyway? > > I think the larger issue is that I'd really rather have some critical services like DNS professionally managed and administered. I'm ok with a toy DNS that's inward facing and thus not having to withstand frontal assaults, but beyond that I'd rather not have to wonder if it's been patched for the newest race that somebody finds and looses on the net... Mike From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 17:27:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6B711E80A6 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:27:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v1euHJNJKdVy for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B95B611E80E0 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2E0Qq4w003624 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:26:52 -0700 Message-ID: <5141194C.5020601@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:26:52 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> <3835B421-D99A-4322-94EA-28258FF43FF2@ecs.soton.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1655; t=1363220812; x=1364084812; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Why=20do=20homenets=20need= 20SD? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Tim=20Chown=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=5CVPl6FML+qDAjZyG0RbBE7Pej87tGLy/JPXvArIxCE=; b=jpAudgL8iLqCLsT0CeKN22XM7M6U8HcFmIpRM1u4Zn1LYVXkSn+QXMl2ki l5L8g60br+bZxKQKlc7GOIvzNqgTbJgQ40uknu3G8jyZatgzgCRuKS9lFjjA hxVrqmnUmKpbLzHl6jRGHIiSxmpwxoxiIOisW6KWp/nV+1eZUCd04=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:27:24 -0000 On 03/13/2013 05:09 PM, Tim Chown wrote: > On 13 Mar 2013, at 23:47, Michael Thomas wrote: > >> On 03/13/2013 03:18 PM, Ray Bellis wrote: >>> On 13 Mar 2013, at 17:13, Ted Lemon wrote: >>> >>>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 5:08 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >>>>> I don't have any statistics but it wouldn't shock me to hear that usb vs. >>>>> networked printers are 10:1 more common. >>>> It would shock me. Bonjour printing Just Works. >>>> >>> It's also the only way I know of to print from an iDevice. >>> >>> The 2.5 year old HP B110a printer I have at home has never been physically connected to a computer. >>> >>> It has "virtual USB" drivers for Windows, but for everything else it's DNS-SD. >> What I find most telling is that after 25 years, printers are still the canonical >> example of the "need" for SD. But printers have entire programs/wizards that >> support their existence, so they're really lousy as a canonical example. It would >> be nice for things to attach themselves to my net and not require their awful apps >> to be installed. > So you never use music collections on other devices, videos from a video server, or throw your laptop screen to a local plasma display for easy viewing by a group? Those are just typical examples of common uses. The problem though is that without manual intervention you only see the services in your local subnet. Nope. What do I type into with my browser to do all of that? If the answer doesn't involve my web browser, you've most likely lost me. We *really* have to keep in mind the lcd here. Mike, purposeful luddite From lorenzo@google.com Wed Mar 13 18:16:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5771A21F8BE0 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:16:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.827 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.827 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hhe+UuqOW-wd for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x229.google.com (mail-ob0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4639921F8B18 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f169.google.com with SMTP id ta14so1713932obb.14 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:16:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=56Wx6LTMrAAilYn7/tOe0bzEhrBWRHdG3iSQF7xoRcQ=; b=piNwu02gYnpeu7b3lBDIew695CkFuWaZcVN5bnLQqoyTtVNxlIUbnrlgOxmEpdv3OU MkMGn53o2eO6/ycAC4nqiR0udVpIaxvVSCIZpNe5/5jGnSCDjkMcop6/ic0POzgQzWkq H6uGNeRGXnglUHgXfAuWyG/bdVa5fI/Da+8gXbyi1HKDzVDS9dnZBD2MVVXs4buKkm5A +pH2MmxgboKDE93mVDZiPx1qgUxHjSOyxMhJhzTKKZ8HcZwcQHsV/z1MYICOVxy1tUCp AGHzM257lKQrtOodjXIuvhWp8+BhGHuIhNyt024eKrWbjE3MiW67NcmhtPMRwynlIqVO +UuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=56Wx6LTMrAAilYn7/tOe0bzEhrBWRHdG3iSQF7xoRcQ=; b=GOgdR4iSKGF5Op+SOwYpo7FwG9INdLb8ZfcYpDC9HrHeVdlz6H5PAtZkBaK4euk7yv WScc1ezwlC65sec9pbch+1pY2AMPmQ+lmUdC0TTJ9QmJEYnq3/HxnkRYKvXnleacrf+x MOB+UAHwUN4YaFJWvNYSKkc4U+zwU1mpgEcg+2Hu79d3B4AoKenFnth5Z2gAnEoi+vmC tCXcznPlRy16/TufU31edOTysj0ROXFfm0xkjEkIj0rkDVmoMGijZ8MvlvP53v157WcI RQLTVe3FCJh5uRCzFIrkEC8cEkZol+JTy2ExIc/venOPdz5OH7ETriNCQr2lk9uBqbtZ UOPA== X-Received: by 10.60.6.199 with SMTP id d7mr222715oea.137.1363223794642; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:16:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.227.70 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:16:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:16:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Brzozowski, John" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb1fd740799cf04d7d84671 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk94hbHCESQ0NH2zZgLaO2T/gZlGLpZiscxRBIjufmnEa3NHjysMF2Ujv5ihu8ABEFf3IEIu7J3s+YnO2DN86YHYUzDweRnH/sPMSp38bdFUOEjDw9347V/yxWTEEh/x2D2sfHS9K1j9fjL7CznAtrCzhb5Yf33JTom/LTrVZOdaA/OCxUitdIV1FqSJpQ//z+PM2tA Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , "Tuska, Christopher" Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:16:36 -0000 --e89a8fb1fd740799cf04d7d84671 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 John, Thanks for providing this infrastructure to test on. We were able to successfully test Markus's implementation and show working source+destination based routing. Video or it didn't happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Omg1lJ6EQI&feature=youtu.be Cheers, Lorenzo On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:21 AM, Brzozowski, John < John_Brzozowski@cable.comcast.com> wrote: > Folks, > > Day 2 has begun, we are open again from 9am to 5pm, or later upon request. > We are again in Grand Sierra D. > > So far we have three implementations up and running, one HIPNET, one > eRouter, and a buffer bloat implementation. We are planning on adding > another implementation today. > > All are welcome to stop by and check us out. > > Thanks, > > John > ========================================= > John Jason Brzozowski > Comcast Cable > m) 484-962-0060 > e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com > o) 609-377-6594 > w) www.comcast6.net > ========================================= > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: , John Jason Brzozowski > > Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:57 AM > To: HOMENET > Cc: Christopher Tuska > Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! > > >Sorry forgot to mention we are in Grand Sierra D. > > > > > >Upon arriving please see Chris Tuska from Comcast, copied above. > > > >John > >-----Original Message----- > >From: , John Jason Brzozowski > > > >Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:40 PM > >To: HOMENET > >Subject: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! > > > >>Folks, > >> > >>We are ready to start testing tomorrow. I know of three implementations > >>that are eRouter or HIPNET. > >> > >>There is room for more so please contact me offline if you are > >>interested. > >> > >>We be open up to and including Bits-n-Bytes on Thursday evening. > >> > >>Doors open at 9am ET and will stay open until 5pm ET (or later upon > >>request). > >> > >>Thanks, > >> > >>John > >>_______________________________________________ > >>homenet mailing list > >>homenet@ietf.org > >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > --e89a8fb1fd740799cf04d7d84671 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,

Thanks for providing this infrast= ructure to test on. We were able to successfully test Markus's implemen= tation and show working source+destination based routing.=A0

=

Cheers,
Lorenzo

<= br>
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:21 AM, Brzozowski, = John <John_Brzozowski@cable.comcast.com> wro= te:
Folks,

Day 2 has begun, we are open again from 9am to 5pm, or later upon request.<= br> =A0We are again in Grand Sierra D.

So far we have three implementations up and running, one HIPNET, one
eRouter, and a buffer bloat implementation. =A0We are planning on adding another implementation today.

All are welcome to stop by and check us out.

Thanks,

John
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
John Jason Brzozowski
Comcast Cable
m) 484-962-0060
e) john_brzozowski@cab= le.comcast.com
o) 609-377-6594
w) www.comcast6.net
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D







-----Original Message-----
From: <Brzozowski>, John Jason Brzozowski
<john_brzozowski@ca= ble.comcast.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013= 7:57 AM
To: HOMENET <homenet@ietf.org>= ;
Cc: Christopher Tuska <Christopher_Tuska@cable.comcast.com>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY!

>Sorry forgot to mention we are in Grand Sierra D.
>
>
>Upon arriving please see Chris Tuska from Comcast, copied above.
>
>John
>-----Original Message-----
>From: <Brzozowski>, John Jason Brzozowski
><john_brzozowsk= i@cable.comcast.com>
>Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:40 PM
>To: HOMENET <homenet@ietf.org>
>Subject: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY!
>
>>Folks,
>>
>>We are ready to start testing tomorrow. I know of three implementat= ions
>>that are eRouter or HIPNET.
>>
>>There is room for more so please contact me offline if you are
>>interested.
>>
>>We =A0be open up to and including Bits-n-Bytes on Thursday evening.=
>>
>>Doors open at 9am ET and will stay open until 5pm ET (or later upon=
>>request).
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>John
>>_______________________________________________
>>homenet mailing list
>>homenet@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--e89a8fb1fd740799cf04d7d84671-- From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Wed Mar 13 18:24:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F4321F85EB for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:24:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.194, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xQw7yNxV7ACA for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [76.96.32.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D7221F85C0 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.115]) by copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id C7WM3M1.60772719; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:24:03 -0600 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by PACDCEXHUB02.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::492e:3fa1:c2ad:e04e%13]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:24:38 -0400 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! Thread-Index: Ac4esdS5/o6DcV8vTYSM6YKS9opa1wAZuU8AADU9pYAAIVbwAP//v0qv Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:24:38 +0000 Message-ID: <13awloyxdgvmie2rwfedkjl0.1363224273718@email.android.com> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_13awloyxdgvmie2rwfedkjl01363224273718emailandroidcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , "Tuska, Christopher" Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:24:45 -0000 --_000_13awloyxdgvmie2rwfedkjl01363224273718emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for confirming. Let me know if there are things that you want to te= st before BnB tomorrow night. Thanks, John Lorenzo Colitti wrote: John, Thanks for providing this infrastructure to test on. We were able to succes= sfully test Markus's implementation and show working source+destination bas= ed routing. Video or it didn't happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Omg1lJ6EQI&fea= ture=3Dyoutu.be Cheers, Lorenzo On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:21 AM, Brzozowski, John > wrote: Folks, Day 2 has begun, we are open again from 9am to 5pm, or later upon request. We are again in Grand Sierra D. So far we have three implementations up and running, one HIPNET, one eRouter, and a buffer bloat implementation. We are planning on adding another implementation today. All are welcome to stop by and check us out. Thanks, John =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D John Jason Brzozowski Comcast Cable m) 484-962-0060 e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com o) 609-377-6594 w) www.comcast6.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: , John Jason Brzozowski > Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:57 AM To: HOMENET > Cc: Christopher Tuska > Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! >Sorry forgot to mention we are in Grand Sierra D. > > >Upon arriving please see Chris Tuska from Comcast, copied above. > >John >-----Original Message----- >From: , John Jason Brzozowski >> >Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:40 PM >To: HOMENET > >Subject: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY! > >>Folks, >> >>We are ready to start testing tomorrow. I know of three implementations >>that are eRouter or HIPNET. >> >>There is room for more so please contact me offline if you are >>interested. >> >>We be open up to and including Bits-n-Bytes on Thursday evening. >> >>Doors open at 9am ET and will stay open until 5pm ET (or later upon >>request). >> >>Thanks, >> >>John >>_______________________________________________ >>homenet mailing list >>homenet@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > _______________________________________________ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --_000_13awloyxdgvmie2rwfedkjl01363224273718emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Thanks for confirming.  Let me know if there are things that yo=
u want to test before BnB tomorrow night.=0A=
=0A=
Thanks,=0A=
=0A=
John=0A=
=0A=
Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:=0A=
=0A=
John,

Thanks for providing this infrastructure to test on. We were able to s= uccessfully test Markus's implementation and show working source+destin= ation based routing. 


Cheers,
Lorenzo


On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:21 AM, Brzozowski, Joh= n <= John_Brzozowski@cable.comcast.com> wrote:
Folks,

Day 2 has begun, we are open again from 9am to 5pm, or later upon request.<= br>  We are again in Grand Sierra D.

So far we have three implementations up and running, one HIPNET, one
eRouter, and a buffer bloat implementation.  We are planning on adding=
another implementation today.

All are welcome to stop by and check us out.

Thanks,

John
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
John Jason Brzozowski
Comcast Cable
m) 484-962-0060=
e) john_brzozowski@cab= le.comcast.com
o) 609-377-6594=
w) www.comcast6.net
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D







-----Original Message-----
From: <Brzozowski>, John Jason Brzozowski
<john_brzozowski@ca= ble.comcast.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 7:57 AM
To: HOMENET <homenet@ietf.org>= ;
Cc: Christopher Tuska <Christopher_Tuska@cable.comcast.com>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY!

>Sorry forgot to mention we are in Grand Sierra D.
>
>
>Upon arriving please see Chris Tuska from Comcast, copied above.
>
>John
>-----Original Message-----
>From: <Brzozowski>, John Jason Brzozowski
><john_brzozowsk= i@cable.comcast.com>
>Date: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:40 PM
>To: HOMENET <homenet@ietf.org>
>Subject: [homenet] Home networking lab/testing READY!
>
>>Folks,
>>
>>We are ready to start testing tomorrow. I know of three implementat= ions
>>that are eRouter or HIPNET.
>>
>>There is room for more so please contact me offline if you are
>>interested.
>>
>>We  be open up to and including Bits-n-Bytes on Thursday eveni= ng.
>>
>>Doors open at 9am ET and will stay open until 5pm ET (or later upon=
>>request).
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>John
>>_______________________________________________
>>homenet mailing list
>>homenet@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--_000_13awloyxdgvmie2rwfedkjl01363224273718emailandroidcom_-- From d.sturek@att.net Wed Mar 13 19:51:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1074F21F8DE4 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:51:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07631HzUSd46 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.211]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5EBF21F8E2C for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.94.237.196] by nm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Mar 2013 02:51:05 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.175] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Mar 2013 02:51:05 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp109.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Mar 2013 02:51:05 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1363229465; bh=rVnk05f4sDj1ndvXA6kt7AkcmMFd/vWpbw8IhmhUyLk=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; b=E7QhuIViL2pYXITvguQmbjKXJfd5LlMJVGm79OxvTU0NyubZc5tRmgf3Rf6p/7X6RfhAPNQq/E/Z1Gu154ClqnwoEV6fNzykVjgAMJLXe7FSnC3Kp5Ib2MMmn+jZ+XK9mpfI3b92SKwq9slEc2yJISysfT9HLdl9ZL3ignpbXl4= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 211503.82906.bm@smtp109.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: QhD15tkVM1mabF1bhcxPmAvfFhF.c2DDhctrVh7Qoi9lB3a rzJciqrlAiPuK_8K26eik_IQMiHXUYnov.da6niCAAyJHPcqj4EpzJCdOa0M RSAK8YSiEQDDW8ya48S4HCWmRPZCGTXiOKRxEI9.eipz0x23sUteTvSxPxXZ qikB2dB2TMRJOsnTBAuLaBXdu.1XKfrKW_HkjjX3lEkAX3FOgBLquWGPZHyH ejsKS1SyqeuUjn6GgOmlmrymyM378Q_Pa2Le0GN4VF9m3NrOzB.sAWoFh29C r5b4cppYW9TvebeycT2cU5UXSpwByfYDoJDCpd0CeFB.gD45F2nI46hCjB42 uvK7BEEU.YH3YKe_KvdFYmutNUrPe_HKuM3G7WmB3SOREHXrQ.L6UYLgVDHL AXMiQtlWGCsKFcn9AEfzpfKi2Umg4Sk3FCJqfoqWXLtmsHDyfkJZXM.bAgAE Yl6RUvV7RWC.nPVKFqFLI3aIGwLE7IGuvJdZBVbdZAAn8fi4fteupY7L0vDQ k.eI- X-Yahoo-SMTP: fvjol_aswBAraSJvMLe2r1XTzhBhbFxY8q8c3jo- Received: from [192.168.0.199] (d.sturek@69.224.122.38 with login) by smtp109.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Mar 2013 19:51:05 -0700 PDT User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:51:02 -0700 From: Don Sturek To: Michael Thomas , Tim Chown Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? In-Reply-To: <5141194C.5020601@mtcc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 02:51:07 -0000 Hi Michael, What you wrote below regarding the need for an LCD and entries typed into a web browser is not quite right. Our commercial group (Smart Energy Profile 2 in the ZigBee Alliance) has created well known service names (even some that incorporate unique device identities) that allow for machine to machine service discovery (no LCDs and no web browser entries needed). I would expect that if we can create service name repositories that utilize DNS-SD names, that other commercial groups can do the same. If we can extend this in homenet to service global service names, all the better. Don On 3/13/13 5:26 PM, "Michael Thomas" wrote: >On 03/13/2013 05:09 PM, Tim Chown wrote: >> On 13 Mar 2013, at 23:47, Michael Thomas wrote: >> >>> On 03/13/2013 03:18 PM, Ray Bellis wrote: >>>> On 13 Mar 2013, at 17:13, Ted Lemon wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 5:08 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >>>>>> I don't have any statistics but it wouldn't shock me to hear that >>>>>>usb vs. >>>>>> networked printers are 10:1 more common. >>>>> It would shock me. Bonjour printing Just Works. >>>>> >>>> It's also the only way I know of to print from an iDevice. >>>> >>>> The 2.5 year old HP B110a printer I have at home has never been >>>>physically connected to a computer. >>>> >>>> It has "virtual USB" drivers for Windows, but for everything else >>>>it's DNS-SD. >>> What I find most telling is that after 25 years, printers are still >>>the canonical >>> example of the "need" for SD. But printers have entire >>>programs/wizards that >>> support their existence, so they're really lousy as a canonical >>>example. It would >>> be nice for things to attach themselves to my net and not require >>>their awful apps >>> to be installed. >> So you never use music collections on other devices, videos from a >>video server, or throw your laptop screen to a local plasma display for >>easy viewing by a group? Those are just typical examples of common >>uses. The problem though is that without manual intervention you only >>see the services in your local subnet. > >Nope. What do I type into with my browser to do all of that? If the >answer doesn't >involve my web browser, you've most likely lost me. > >We *really* have to keep in mind the lcd here. > >Mike, purposeful luddite >_______________________________________________ >homenet mailing list >homenet@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Wed Mar 13 20:04:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BCC311E80BF for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:04:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.807 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.807 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0O3MvrY+4sPR for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538FB11E80A3 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (dhcp-46aa.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.70.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 541E98A031 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:04:26 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:03:54 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20130314030354.GB49243@mx1.yitter.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: [homenet] Naming and internationalization X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:04:28 -0000 Dear colleagues, I've just been looking at the -arch-07 document, and I'm wondering whether there's an issue here that ought to be noted. The document is clear enough that the plan is for a name service that is somewhat compatible with DNS and that works reasonably well with it. At the same time, there is a goal for locally-scoped and globally-scoped names for the same resource to work reliably. In the global DNS, the way we write internationalized names is IDNA (of some flavour), which means the underlying labels are either IDNA2003 Punycode labels, or else they're IDNA2008 A-labels. These labels have a lot of restrictions on what they may contain. mDNS labels are in UTF-8, and there are no rules about what labels you can use. It's sort of implied in its use of RFC 5198, but not perfectly clear, that the strings are in NFC form. Apart from that, hearts, space characters, and other such things are legal in mDNS names but not DNS (even IDNA) names. I'm wondering whether text about using the homenet name service in a way that is compatible with the Internet name service is worth including. Here is a small proposal: In the event the homenet is accessible from outside the homenet (using the global name space), it is vital that the homenet name space follow the rules and conventions of the global name space. In this mode of operation, names in the homenet (including those automatically generated by devices) must be usable as labels in the global name space. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 20:49:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41D121F8E0E for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:49:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mM9J+dzICK1m for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F295A1F041A for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2E3mrhC006352 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:48:54 -0700 Message-ID: <514148A5.8080101@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:48:53 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Sturek References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=569; t=1363232934; x=1364096934; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Why=20do=20homenets=20need= 20SD? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Don=20Sturek=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=30hJmynighgugWdIW8vH7HrdmhIko3Kj2kblBAa29SA=; b=B3OE1yINSdv6OjgVCUXQ7NYXjXNSm5/3Tpy9dyWpYE/5AlrsYyfbLxx37/ CahpkOAwg1SxCSE5j1GI6AIPioQhtkG89/nx2reInv8DMFQzDZri8DQ7iNG3 nXPmBJplPd2wwDJJR5wz57Pp5mI2WhwNrhaFfyePav215HcoX7dZk=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:49:27 -0000 On 03/13/2013 07:51 PM, Don Sturek wrote: > Hi Michael, > > What you wrote below regarding the need for an LCD and entries typed into > a web browser is not quite right. > > Our commercial group (Smart Energy Profile 2 in the ZigBee Alliance) has > created well known service names (even some that incorporate unique device > identities) that allow for machine to machine service discovery (no LCDs > and no web browser entries needed). Sorry, I meant LCD == least common denominator :) But machine-machine is definitely an interesting subject. Mike From mellon@fugue.com Wed Mar 13 21:24:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF4C511E809C for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:24:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EpvDKXVBGZUC for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57E6911E80F5 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (66.sub-70-193-196.myvzw.com [70.193.196.66]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B2A1E2381512; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:23:45 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5141194C.5020601@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:23:42 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> <3835B421-D99A-4322-94EA-28258FF43FF2@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <5141194C.5020601@mtcc.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 04:24:06 -0000 On Mar 13, 2013, at 8:26 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > Mike, purposeful luddite It's worth noting that we _do_ need to serve the needs of people who buy = and use modern devices, not just luddites, much as we may fondly prefer = to be luddites ourselves. From cheshire@apple.com Wed Mar 13 22:21:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 519B121F8D76 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:21:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VAIxMbkOMqOi for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (mail-out.apple.com [17.151.62.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1990121F8D6E for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:21:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_u26ESTi8CfzDDfCEjkjflw)" Received: from relay6.apple.com ([17.128.113.90]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01 (7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTP id <0MJM00KG6XJ04JU1@mail-out.apple.com> for homenet@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:21:06 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1180715a-b7f566d000006daa-65-51415e424658 Received: from kencur (kencur.apple.com [17.151.62.38]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 62.4D.28074.24E51415; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chesh7-3.home.lan (dhcp-43de.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.67.222]) by kencur.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01(7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Nov 17 2011)) with ESMTPSA id <0MJM003FBXJ4X240@kencur.apple.com> for homenet@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:21:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Stuart Cheshire Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:21:04 -0700 To: homenet@ietf.org Message-id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OTdcpzjHQ4PltHov3iw6xODB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr49S/z+wF0+YzVixvamBtYGztYuxi5OSQEDCROLLxA5QtJnHh 3nq2LkYuDiGBJiaJdZt2sUM4m5kkWnYvYgGpYhPQknjx+QpQFQcHs4CrxIbbrCBhFgFViT+X L4LZwgJWEucvfAcrEREQkWieHgoS5hWwkXj56CobhG0oseT6FnaIvbISO++cZpnAyDMLYegs JFUgNrOAtsSyha+ZIWwDiaedr1gxxfUl3rybw7SAkW0Vo0BRak5ipZleYkFBTqpecn7uJkZQ gDUURu1gbFhudYhRgINRiYd3R4dDoBBrYllxZe4hRgkOZiURXk8vx0Ah3pTEyqrUovz4otKc 1OJDjNIcLErivBs77AOFBNITS1KzU1MLUotgskwcnFINjPqbV7pOPLD8dXqVunn/kZSCSfaO Wo03enpUj1q6xJzOzN5h3MeTKSZsFL+7QOnmNv9zW4QZlsp1Lbq24q1Q36RXcxl7PBLtVV86 iBa0cVx66pGe/+ye8YLAqa+L/kb/PtC0e02HvNtXrts7fYpt2Fb1s2t/d7I+eT8mc8dRhq3x O6SYP+mpKLEUZyQaajEXFScCAHvZIxEsAgAA Subject: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:21:39 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_u26ESTi8CfzDDfCEjkjflw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable There's been some discussion about service discovery. Anyone who prints = wirelessly from their iPhone or iPad without typing in an IP address is = using service discovery. Anyone who=92s watched video on a web page on = their iPad, and then tapped the screen to transfer the video playback to = their television, without typing in its IP address, is using service = discovery. Anyone who=92s streamed music from their iPhone to their = wireless AirPlay speakers, or controlled their TiVo from its iPad app, = or shown a slide show from their phone on a friend's television screen, = or given a university lecture by beaming their presentation wirelessly = from their laptop to the video projector, all without typing in any = names or IP addresses, has been using service discovery. This is all commonly done today, but generally only on the local link. = We'd like similar ease of use in larger networks too. I recently = submitted this draft: This Hybrid Proxy proposal talks about how information gets into the DNS = namespace, but how does that data get back out again? Some people have = asked me for a more detailed description of exactly how clients perform = the unicast queries. I thought I'd illustrate the process using a = familiar example we've been using for many years here at IETF: Printing = to the Terminal Room printer. Here=92s a detailed step-by-step walkthrough of how we find the IETF = Terminal Room printer, starting with DHCP, and ending with a TCP = connection sending the data to the printer. When you print from your Mac = or iPhone, and give no second thought to how it magically knew about the = IETF Terminal Room printer, this is what it's doing under the covers. First, let=92s see what my Mac learned from the local DHCP server: > % scutil > > list > ... > subKey [74] =3D = State:/Network/Service/21B5304C-C227-4932-BFCF-54B28F4CA1D2/DHCP > ... >=20 > > show = State:/Network/Service/21B5304C-C227-4932-BFCF-54B28F4CA1D2/DHCP > { > Option_15 : 0x6d656574696e672e696574662e6f7267 > ... > } Option_15 is Domain Name. What domain name? > % echo 6d656574696e672e696574662e6f7267 0A | xxd -r -p > meeting.ietf.org Great. Does meeting.ietf.org recommend we look in any Wide Area Service = Discovery domains? > % dig lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. ptr >=20 > ; <<>> DiG 9.6-ESV-R4-P3 <<>> lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. ptr > ;; global options: +cmd > ;; Got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 35624 > ;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: = 4 >=20 > ;; QUESTION SECTION: > ;lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. IN PTR >=20 > ;; ANSWER SECTION: > lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. 3600 IN PTR meeting.ietf.org. >=20 > ... >=20 > ;; Query time: 8 msec > ;; SERVER: 130.129.5.6#53(130.129.5.6) > ;; WHEN: Wed Mar 13 10:16:40 2013 > ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 188 Note, I can ask *any* DNS server this question and I will get the same = answer. Let=92s ask Google DNS instead: > % dig @8.8.8.8 lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. ptr >=20 > ; <<>> DiG 9.6-ESV-R4-P3 <<>> @8.8.8.8 = lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. ptr > ; (1 server found) > ;; global options: +cmd > ;; Got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 24571 > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0 >=20 > ;; QUESTION SECTION: > ;lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. IN PTR >=20 > ;; ANSWER SECTION: > lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. 1532 IN PTR meeting.ietf.org. >=20 > ;; Query time: 21 msec > ;; SERVER: 8.8.8.8#53(8.8.8.8) > ;; WHEN: Wed Mar 13 10:18:27 2013 > ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 64 I still get the same answer. The DNS server I ask doesn=92t have to be = =93on=94 my =93local=94 network (whatever that means). I=92m in Florida. = Google DNS is I-don=92t-know-where, 13 hops away, but it still gives the = right answer. > % traceroute -q 1 8.8.8.8 > traceroute to 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets > 1 rtra (130.129.80.2) 1.369 ms > 2 75-112-170-148.net.bhntampa.com (75.112.170.148) 14.494 ms > 3 bun2.tamp20-car1.bhn.net (71.44.3.73) 19.558 ms > 4 hun0-0-0-0-tamp20-cbr1.bhn.net (72.31.117.156) 20.730 ms > 5 xe-8-2-0.bar1.tampa1.level3.net (4.53.172.9) 13.052 ms > 6 ae-5-5.ebr1.miami1.level3.net (4.69.148.213) 27.413 ms > 7 ae-1-51.edge1.miami2.level3.net (4.69.138.75) 15.552 ms > 8 google-inc.edge1.miami2.level3.net (4.59.240.26) 48.852 ms > 9 209.85.253.118 (209.85.253.118) 21.118 ms > 10 216.239.48.192 (216.239.48.192) 21.890 ms > 11 216.239.48.192 (216.239.48.192) 23.221 ms > 12 * > 13 google-public-dns-a.google.com (8.8.8.8) 32.961 ms (For the rest of this example I'll use Google DNS for all the queries.) In this case the PTR is self-referential =97 meeting.ietf.org is = advising us to look in meeting.ietf.org, but it could easily be set up = to direct us elsewhere. But in this case it=92s suggesting we look for services in = meeting.ietf.org, so let=92s do that: A Mac with appropriate printer drivers installed will look for this = service: > % dig +short @8.8.8.8 _pdl-datastream._tcp.meeting.ietf.org. ptr > term-printer._pdl-datastream._tcp.meeting.ietf.org. There=92s one printing service available here, called =93term-printer=94. = That=92s what you see when you press the =93+=94 button in the Print & = Fax Preference Pane on Mac OS X. To actually use it, the client uses this: > % dig +short @8.8.8.8 = term-printer._pdl-datastream._tcp.meeting.ietf.org. srv > 0 0 9100 term-printer.meeting.ietf.org. >=20 > % dig +short @8.8.8.8 term-printer.meeting.ietf.org. AAAA > 2001:df8::48:200:74ff:fee0:6cf8 So, to use this printer, the Mac connects to = [2001:df8::48:200:74ff:fee0:6cf8]:9100, and uses the installed printer = driver, which speaks the appropriate vendor-specific printing protocol = for that printer. If you=92re using an iPhone then you don=92t have vendor-specific = printer drivers installed; instead it uses this generic IPP-based = printing service: > % dig +short @8.8.8.8 _universal._sub._ipp._tcp.meeting.ietf.org. ptr > term-printer._ipp._tcp.meeting.ietf.org. There=92s one IPP-based printing service available here, called = =93term-printer=94. Same name as the pdl-datastream printing service, = and same physical hardware, but different printing protocol. To actually use it, the client uses this: > % dig +short @8.8.8.8 term-printer._ipp._tcp.meeting.ietf.org. srv > 0 0 631 term-printer.meeting.ietf.org. >=20 > % dig +short @8.8.8.8 term-printer.meeting.ietf.org. aaaa > 2001:df8::48:200:74ff:fee0:6cf8 Note: Same address as before, but different port number. To use this printer, the iPhone connects to = [2001:df8::48:200:74ff:fee0:6cf8]:631, and uses IPP to print. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how automatic Wide Area DNS-Based = Service Discovery works. Here at IETF, the records are added to the DNS manually by our capable = network volunteers. The idea of the Hybrid Proxy is to populate the DNS = namespace automatically, making Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery = available to a broader community of users. Stuart Cheshire --Boundary_(ID_u26ESTi8CfzDDfCEjkjflw) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
There's been some = discussion about service discovery. Anyone who prints wirelessly from = their iPhone or iPad without typing in an IP address is = using service discovery. Anyone who=92s watched video on a web page = on their iPad, and then tapped the screen to transfer the video playback = to their television, without typing in its IP address, is = using service discovery. Anyone who=92s streamed music from = their iPhone to their wireless AirPlay speakers, or controlled = their TiVo from its iPad app, or shown a slide show from their phone on = a friend's television screen, or given a university lecture by beaming = their presentation wirelessly from their laptop to the video projector, = all without typing in any names or IP addresses, has been = using service discovery.

This is all = commonly done today, but generally only on the local link. = We'd like similar ease of use in larger networks too. I recently = submitted this draft:

<http:= //www.ietf.org/id/draft-cheshire-mdnsext-hybrid-01.txt>

This Hybrid Proxy proposal talks about how information gets = into the DNS namespace, but how does that data get back out = again? Some people have asked me for a more detailed description of = exactly how clients perform the unicast queries. I thought I'd = illustrate the process using a familiar example we've been using for = many years here at IETF: Printing to the Terminal Room = printer.

Here=92s a detailed step-by-step walkthrough of how we = find the IETF Terminal Room printer, starting with DHCP, and ending with = a TCP connection sending the data to the printer. When you print = from your Mac or iPhone, and give no second thought to how it = magically knew about the IETF Terminal Room printer, this is what = it's doing under the covers.

First, let=92s see what my Mac = learned from the local DHCP server:

% = scutil
> = list
 ...
 subKey [74] =3D = State:/Network/Service/21B5304C-C227-4932-BFCF-54B28F4CA1D2/DHCP
 ...

> show = State:/Network/Service/21B5304C-C227-4932-BFCF-54B28F4CA1D2/DHCP
<dictionary> = {
 Option_15 : = <data> 0x6d656574696e672e696574662e6f7267
=
 ...
}

Option_15 is Domain Name. What = domain name?

% echo 6d656574696e672e696574662e6f7267 0A | xxd -r = -p
meeting.ietf.org

= Great. Does meeting.ietf.org = recommend we look in any Wide Area Service Discovery = domains?

% dig = lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. ptr

; = <<>> DiG 9.6-ESV-R4-P3 <<>> = lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. ptr
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; = ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: = 35624
;; flags: qr aa rd ra; = QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: = 4

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. IN = PTR

;; ANSWER = SECTION:
lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. 3600 IN PTR meeting.ietf.org.

...

;; Query time: = 8 msec
;; SERVER: = 130.129.5.6#53(130.129.5.6)
;; = WHEN: Wed Mar 13 10:16:40 2013
;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 188

Note, I = can ask *any* DNS server this question and I will get the same answer. = Let=92s ask Google DNS instead:

% dig = @8.8.8.8 lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. = ptr

; <<>> DiG 9.6-ESV-R4-P3 <<>> = @8.8.8.8 lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. = ptr
; (1 server = found)
;; global options: = +cmd
;; Got = answer:
;; = ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: = 24571
;; flags: qr rd ra; = QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: = 0

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. IN = PTR

;; ANSWER = SECTION:
lb._dns-sd._udp.meeting.ietf.org. 1532 IN PTR meeting.ietf.org.

;; = Query time: 21 msec
;; SERVER: = 8.8.8.8#53(8.8.8.8)
;; WHEN: = Wed Mar 13 10:18:27 2013
;; = MSG SIZE  rcvd: 64

I still get the same answer. = The DNS server I ask doesn=92t have to be =93on=94 my =93local=94 = network (whatever that means). I=92m in Florida. Google DNS is = I-don=92t-know-where, 13 hops away, but it still gives the right = answer.

% traceroute -q 1 = 8.8.8.8
traceroute to 8.8.8.8 = (8.8.8.8), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
1  rtra (130.129.80.2)  1.369 = ms
2  75-112-170-148.net.bhntamp= a.com (75.112.170.148)  14.494 ms
3  bun2.tamp20-car1.bhn.net = (71.44.3.73)  19.558 ms
4 =  hun0-0-0-0-tamp20-cbr1.bhn.= net (72.31.117.156)  20.730 ms
5  xe-8-2-0.bar1.tampa1.level3.net (4.53.172.9) =  13.052 ms
6 =  ae-5-5.ebr1.miami1.level3.net (4.69.148.213)  27.413 = ms
7 =  ae-1-51.edge1.miami2.level3.net (4.69.138.75)  15.552 = ms
8 =  google-inc.edge1.miami2.level3.net (4.59.240.26)  48.852 = ms
9  209.85.253.118 = (209.85.253.118)  21.118 ms
10  216.239.48.192 (216.239.48.192)  21.890 = ms
11  216.239.48.192 = (216.239.48.192)  23.221 ms
12  *
13 =  google-public-dns-a.google.= com (8.8.8.8)  32.961 ms

(For the rest of = this example I'll use Google DNS for all the queries.)

In this = case the PTR is self-referential =97 meeting.ietf.org is advising us to = look in meeting.ietf.org, but it = could easily be set up to direct us elsewhere.

But in this = case it=92s suggesting we look for services in meeting.ietf.org, so let=92s do = that:

A Mac with appropriate printer drivers installed will look = for this service:

% dig +short @8.8.8.8 = _pdl-datastream._tcp.meeting.ietf.org. ptr
term-printer._pdl-datastream._tcp.meeting.ietf.org.

There=92s one printing service available here, called = =93term-printer=94. That=92s what you see when you press the =93+=94 = button in the Print & Fax Preference Pane on Mac OS = X.

To actually use it, the client uses this:

% dig +short @8.8.8.8 = term-printer._pdl-datastream._tcp.meeting.ietf.org. = srv
0 0 9100 term-printer.meeting.ietf.or= g.

% dig +short = @8.8.8.8 term-printer.meeting.ietf.or= g. AAAA
2001:df8::48:200:74ff:fee0:6cf8

So, to = use this printer, the Mac connects to = [2001:df8::48:200:74ff:fee0:6cf8]:9100, and uses the installed printer = driver, which speaks the appropriate vendor-specific printing = protocol for that printer.

If you=92re using an iPhone then you = don=92t have vendor-specific printer drivers installed; instead it uses = this generic IPP-based printing service:

% dig +short @8.8.8.8 = _universal._sub._ipp._tcp.meeting.ietf.org. = ptr
term-printer._ipp._tcp.meeting.ietf.org.
There=92s one IPP-based printing service available here, called = =93term-printer=94. Same name as the pdl-datastream printing service, = and same physical hardware, but different printing = protocol.

To actually use it, the client uses = this:

% dig +short @8.8.8.8 = term-printer._ipp._tcp.meeting.ietf.org. srv
0 0 631 term-printer.meeting.ietf.or= g.

% dig +short = @8.8.8.8 term-printer.meeting.ietf.or= g. aaaa
2001:df8::48:200:74ff:fee0:6cf8

Note: = Same address as before, but different port number.

To use this = printer, the iPhone connects to [2001:df8::48:200:74ff:fee0:6cf8]:631, = and uses IPP to print.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how = automatic Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery works.

Here at = IETF, the records are added to the DNS manually by our capable network = volunteers. The idea of the Hybrid Proxy is to populate the DNS = namespace automatically, making Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery = available to a broader community of users.

Stuart = Cheshire

= --Boundary_(ID_u26ESTi8CfzDDfCEjkjflw)-- From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 22:45:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E57521F8E8E for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:45:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cgH9rK8vFnR6 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDCE21F8E94 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2E5jMPN012008 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:45:22 -0700 Message-ID: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:45:22 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Cheshire References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=149; t=1363239922; x=1364103922; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Wide=20Area=20DNS-Based=20S ervice=20Discovery=20walkthrough |Sender:=20 |To:=20Stuart=20Cheshire=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=6ydLR3XR+DWBrwNA2XaBCAvPEGO+09tmSM005M1TPAk=; b=qaASEa2GdK89PEQhfFWsK7l4D/FcJ+mxauVXCHzRY5kIc7/JqIxk0aEetY npmuSEKfuRDqdXTu2G+Lkpp0UNf9ecvypHC5QX7vz+kYYVAP/LOCH1Uh7d+w ZZrbqL8y+o82q6ITqp0yND/peF/JMP11rXfxygbqHVIk5FYsk+kjc=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:45:24 -0000 On 03/13/2013 10:21 PM, Stuart Cheshire wrote: > > This is all commonly done today The problem here is that you actually believe this. Mike From mike@mtcc.com Wed Mar 13 22:49:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B8821F863F for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:49:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g63HsfCredzg for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2C3521F85B1 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2E5nJ6D013368 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:49:20 -0700 Message-ID: <514164DF.6060505@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 22:49:19 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> <3835B421-D99A-4322-94EA-28258FF43FF2@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <5141194C.5020601@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=600; t=1363240160; x=1364104160; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Why=20do=20homenets=20need= 20SD? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Ted=20Lemon=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=z1LBNRK9MtbvPBAMm/G+qq2uU6K+409WKd0pYBQYir8=; b=epJ2ixgB0FFpKLSklw1p/dpmfGkomG3pM8z+p9hvPhxp6EwqkUJpmktwt4 alopcI8IFlsX62639LnzeuiMZK3jPJRTmLzIoSNnwiWNqGdxHBVZG0BRRXio aKtyvfswAZU2OK2sBzj1h+oRE6H/DMtM4bOLt3Z3w/na/Od3gPcSU=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:49:57 -0000 On 03/13/2013 09:23 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 13, 2013, at 8:26 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> Mike, purposeful luddite > It's worth noting that we _do_ need to serve the needs of people who buy and use modern devices, not just luddites, much as we may fondly prefer to be luddites ourselves. My point here all along is that there is no inevitability about the so-called status quo about the way things are named on homenets. This is still in its infancy and we should do the right thing rather than figure out how to hack on bad solutions to make them suck less. Mike From swmike@swm.pp.se Wed Mar 13 23:56:00 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F390C21F8E7D for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:55:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.491 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.491 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.108, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h+oEKzBP5idu for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3922321F8E77 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 430EF9C; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:55:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF649A; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:55:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:55:44 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Michael Thomas In-Reply-To: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> Message-ID: References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (DEB 1167 2008-08-23) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:56:05 -0000 On Wed, 13 Mar 2013, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/13/2013 10:21 PM, Stuart Cheshire wrote: >> >> This is all commonly done today > > The problem here is that you actually believe this. I know plenty people who do this (airplay), and I know others who would do this if they could get it working easily (they have one vendor TV and a different vendor smartphone which doesn't support a common protocol for the smartphone to tell the TV to start playing whatever was being watched on the smartphone). Apple Airplay works ok, but I only get it working between Apple devices. I'm sure there are other vendor specific protocols that do similar things. Let's put this into a different perspective: If service discovery and resulting address independence doesn't work, then it's going to be a pain to renumber. With SD, I imagine that changing addresses in the home (with PD etc) wouldn't impact the user experience in a fatal way, thus removing some of the need for ULAs (which I think is an ugly hack considering current state of RA handling in devices where it's all-or-nothing for putting a default route towards the RA announcing device). Things should be addressed by DNS or alike, and they should have unique names/identifiers. Never should an IPv4 or IPv6 address be used. SD needs to just work, and it needs to work in a routed home, and preferrably it should work from the Internet as well. Vision statement: I want to be able to use IPSEC to talk to everything in my home from whereever I am, and the authorisation to talk to my home devices should come from common key/cert management. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From v6ops@globis.net Thu Mar 14 00:18:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2597D21F8F34 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:18:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GZ+JJMvI7PQI for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from globis01.globis.net (RayH-1-pt.tunnel.tserv11.ams1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f14:62e::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7289221F8F31 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7268700E2; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:18:22 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at globis01.globis.net Received: from globis01.globis.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.globis.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mmq1ee6S61Ax; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:18:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from Rays-iMac-2.local (unknown [192.168.0.3]) (Authenticated sender: Ray.Hunter@globis.net) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B7D9B87005F; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:18:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <514179A3.3010206@globis.net> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:17:55 +0100 From: Ray Hunter User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.7 (Macintosh/20130119) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140F438.3020304@mtcc.com> <8045BE4F-FA2D-4E2C-AFBA-9C174DF76B15@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <8045BE4F-FA2D-4E2C-AFBA-9C174DF76B15@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Tim Chown , Michael Thomas , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] mdns populating repositories? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:18:39 -0000 Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 13, 2013, at 5:48 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> This just doesn't make any sense to me. mDNS is typically used to do an >> A/AAAA lookup. And mDNS isn't global, so it wouldn't do me much good if >> I were in Brazil. So I don't think this is a solution at all, and it definitely >> doesn't seem to have anything to do with mDNS. To my mind, what would >> be useful is for the device to populate a repository (zeroconf or not) via >> an existing or tweaked DNS protocols (ixfr?). > > Stuart Cheshire has a draft describing how to populate a DNS zone using mDNS. It's not a bad idea, although I don't think the architecture document should mention it—there is at least one other alternative, and by mentioning solely mDNS we are making a decision that I don't think has general agreement. > > > FWIW I also don't think we have consensus on mDNS, nor for that matter, DNS. I haven't yet seen a solution for naming that ticks all boxes of the homenet architecture, so we should really avoid referring to them in the architecture document in a way that implies that any of them have been "selected" for homenet. regards RayH From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Thu Mar 14 01:23:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587C421F8EEA for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.475, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jwOtbOsFEm-Z for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x236.google.com (mail-we0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1DDF21F8E1C for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f182.google.com with SMTP id t57so1880740wey.13 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:23:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent :mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3kV0kguu4/v1rEBGNzSDoABHnAsRZ0dq6CXfQv/gm9E=; b=tx3cy3MsrVxLud/6zQPvy02CUZmhWj998nTsWf6bo3InC/l/Xnbc4Qxqu5lyxRCoV1 Kg1EB0ON/9fWqzqpGdWz2AyWjnLWUx7wOXS+qgT7IRO49EKrPuuyB96DHI1TiuDHETVN i+2C7L6xxy6NaLnEzxsDrJSj3FMamvxEhFu/jNh/nhgHcEvqvM4f8Kj1bxrWAT+esmDb SO2UyD+ueJFrL+rDnfYazdAt4nU4cPZtTtkoniP2KELcTHyM7+imHh5xr2Yr+7QaZ8FW RyB1TbUfTuiEucmBJK0n9JsDhBDIDrQZ/ktBmkHdS7p54zAEA4bhf8qDzn0oGleBnVx4 XRDw== X-Received: by 10.180.77.9 with SMTP id o9mr32286240wiw.16.1363249406937; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-101-189-141.as13285.net. [2.101.189.141]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fx5sm2320634wib.11.2013.03.14.01.23.25 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51418908.7020406@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:23:36 +0000 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Thomas References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:23:30 -0000 On 13/03/2013 23:47, Michael Thomas wrote: > What I find most telling is that after 25 years, printers are still the canonical > example of the "need" for SD. But printers have entire programs/wizards that > support their existence, so they're really lousy as a canonical example. It would > be nice for things to attach themselves to my net and not require their awful apps > to be installed. Exactly. That's why the architecture needs SD, in a nutshell. Brian From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Thu Mar 14 01:25:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D46821F8E94 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:25:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.375 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.454, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JVSUhfy2Ms90 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x231.google.com (mail-we0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9EB521F8E90 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f177.google.com with SMTP id d7so1854497wer.22 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:25:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent :mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/Oa/tpnGwu87574vE6skIJ/IQr1luYXq0e734vk/XGI=; b=zT7SiLn5ZAtk3JkGI5Gt8CcRhepi97BLA5R8Abcq2xIdtD1HlXd/TatWBxPKb7qO13 fHM9PriQ+tHcz6AvvjgHYJ363FYJc1ANJUF6EesI+R5ULufKyNQEyX4UKWf5Tl6QTyaV OtcsrvCNETiC1FKJbvRsXsb6vsqrJS9Uls5s+G18c5LQUI/rb3N3SDwKiS+ll3cdKuXE KqpS5T+ZYwPXuQ0udCfj/LK64Te80mjkv0GjwGsfwIePOw9QslnHEJJmweMJQgQbUuby TsXlS15vBXt7wrezWyEf8UY1WzF50AMSIEBMVCR4lSiXyfO25OUZdY5yRBcecESRUlHX 7XMg== X-Received: by 10.180.24.229 with SMTP id x5mr2135046wif.17.1363249528961; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-101-189-141.as13285.net. [2.101.189.141]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fg6sm2336821wib.10.2013.03.14.01.25.27 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51418982.7080201@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:25:38 +0000 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Sullivan References: <20130314030354.GB49243@mx1.yitter.info> In-Reply-To: <20130314030354.GB49243@mx1.yitter.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Naming and internationalization X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:25:30 -0000 On 14/03/2013 03:03, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > In the event the homenet is accessible from outside the homenet > (using the global name space), it is vital that the homenet name > space follow the rules and conventions of the global name space. > In this mode of operation, names in the homenet (including those > automatically generated by devices) must be usable as labels in > the global name space. Yes, but shouldn't there be a normative reference to IDNA? Brian From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Thu Mar 14 01:43:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2C621F8EE5 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:43:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.355 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.355 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.434, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2XivQRei5FZ for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F89A21F8E71 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id l13so3506048wie.8 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:43:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent :mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ItjYoaqRsnOPZS2+I4LdZe0TBCSNqnuj/BY6CXmcEWY=; b=mx1Eu42bpo7IIOYlTmzQ3H83JTuATyHqT6lZyu2ykZ2ia/mDU/pIr6ez6dkcC5M1Q2 YewDkPWe0rozbrbjWXLsDKhTLaeohjrpjucb7ZNKhPvQRacBGHIHFgIyki5l3yrd00Yo FY18hCVU1WIdMPE0Da48M6NMatxNlk9zM5UN1QBoJuT7tMZCBKstPwthLHQLSMh3gh/s kVZ7CKYMLLdwEyNhzF0qdPay4+Mc1LeVkDvTcwfB376/mWNP0kDXGy5rSzGQ2ncpnXHa W+Dr5YLKncZeCwE3eOBFUiwmwQO6L87uXwiJSvsPWmQx3BtUTVSRzJvEifUfZmaMjpqo RmEA== X-Received: by 10.194.242.163 with SMTP id wr3mr2218103wjc.35.1363250591187; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-101-189-141.as13285.net. [2.101.189.141]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ex1sm2442264wib.7.2013.03.14.01.43.09 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 01:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51418DA7.3090804@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:43:19 +0000 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DB26.70104@mtcc.com> <9C88C455-BB34-4FDA-8BA7-FA19A8E38149@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <9C88C455-BB34-4FDA-8BA7-FA19A8E38149@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tim Chown , Michael Thomas , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] global vs. local naming X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:43:13 -0000 On 13/03/2013 20:54, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> All of this is lacking in section 3.7. If I were a contractor using this "architecture" >> I wouldn't know what to build. > > The architecture document acts as a basis for the work that you, as a contractor, would build from. You can't build from an architecture document, unless you are a lot smarter than we are. OK, but that doesn't mean that the *architecture* should punt on principles of the namespace. I'll put down a marker: local namespaces are ambiguous and therefore should not be part of an architecture. However, there is a way to reconcile this with pragmatic use of .local - stipulate that when a global name is needed for a local resource, it is .local... That requires some namespace knitting but it is architecturally clean. Brian From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Thu Mar 14 04:15:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC90121F8F40 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 04:15:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.808 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.808 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5UvqZEN8ttc7 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 04:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E1421F8F21 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 04:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (dhcp-12ab.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.18.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0B0438A038 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:15:55 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:15:18 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20130314111518.GA49644@mx1.yitter.info> References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:15:58 -0000 On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 10:45:22PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: > The problem here is that you actually believe this. Stuart's description certainly matches what I have observed. What is it you thought was false? Note that he went out of his way to use Apple examples, so the cross-vendor issues that plague this sort of behaviour aren't an issue. (I'd like that not to be true, of course, but that's not directly relevant to SD issues.) A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From mike@mtcc.com Thu Mar 14 05:43:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7DBE11E80FA for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:43:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8BlyW8rTYM5e for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6AA511E80F5 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2ECei8Z020030 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:40:46 -0700 Message-ID: <5141C54C.3030002@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:40:44 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Sullivan References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> <20130314111518.GA49644@mx1.yitter.info> In-Reply-To: <20130314111518.GA49644@mx1.yitter.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=856; t=1363264846; x=1364128846; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Wide=20Area=20DNS-Based=20S ervice=20Discovery=20walkthrough |Sender:=20 |To:=20Andrew=20Sullivan=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=Hu4HF/LMRhQNu5c7ME5bmAKCiq+QMGwZATMM50sPdhs=; b=aamrSdrxElurNwe/A2HS0UMU2SM6E1ScpOys/D/QsYBBlLhmM8Q7ytQy7W XFbJolW+ow0TY1s0tryW4buqcjtMAP6I3LEgVkzRftO2DepG2eIheyXtV8JW FoDdWr+7My2cLi0Dr+xnZIq9n1LqpAIN7LDA4mG4C4AgHWCVXPQGI=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:43:03 -0000 On 03/14/2013 04:15 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 10:45:22PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: >> The problem here is that you actually believe this. > Stuart's description certainly matches what I have observed. What is > it you thought was false? Note that he went out of his way to use > Apple examples, so the cross-vendor issues that plague this sort of > behaviour aren't an issue. (I'd like that not to be true, of course, > but that's not directly relevant to SD issues.) > The assertion that it is "common". It isn't. It's a way to amaze your friends. It's also irksome that "common" assumes a uniformity of i's and airs as you mention. There is no inevitability to the status quo, and we shouldn't proceed from that assumption. We should get on with the job of defining requirements for the long run. Mike From mike@mtcc.com Thu Mar 14 05:55:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A677921F8FC0 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:55:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sv9Jo-l8d4xz for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE3221F8EB1 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2ECthEE025203 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:55:44 -0700 Message-ID: <5141C8CF.4030603@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:55:43 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mikael Abrahamsson References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1953; t=1363265744; x=1364129744; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Wide=20Area=20DNS-Based=20S ervice=20Discovery=20walkthrough |Sender:=20 |To:=20Mikael=20Abrahamsson=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=gH9A1Fxl0A/en0C4HRLc9VCNAAEiCaI0o87rYjQYH9M=; b=hs9rIls+z3h1oVXWrj/DuUkFWIw7TXJ7NzQchAqr4W46GVbgJib7LqLb9O 4M/4DQIsdtqCLUHmYtSE9hG7mYduaY5JUP8Z8Kcu1dEdKwOneQ9+/8sXZ54B Ut9PjoqA2jtxwNqxuNpzLTU67k00Bp7Mm55YrYWRcZiHdi2ajtuTc=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:55:53 -0000 On 03/13/2013 11:55 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > > I know plenty people who do this (airplay), and I know others who would do this if they could get it working easily (they have one vendor TV and a different vendor smartphone which doesn't support a common protocol for the smartphone to tell the TV to start playing whatever was being watched on the smartphone). Apple Airplay works ok, but I only get it working between Apple devices. I'm sure there are other vendor specific protocols that do similar things. > > Let's put this into a different perspective: > > If service discovery and resulting address independence doesn't work, then it's going to be a pain to renumber. With SD, I imagine that changing addresses in the home (with PD etc) wouldn't impact the user experience in a fatal way, thus removing some of the need for ULAs (which I think is an ugly hack considering current state of RA handling in devices where it's all-or-nothing for putting a default route towards the RA announcing device). > > Things should be addressed by DNS or alike, and they should have unique names/identifiers. Never should an IPv4 or IPv6 address be used. SD needs to just work, and it needs to work in a routed home, and preferrably it should work from the Internet as well. > > Vision statement: I want to be able to use IPSEC to talk to everything in my home from whereever I am, and the authorisation to talk to my home devices should come from common key/cert management. > This nicely circles back to what I was originally asking for: requirements. The problem with section 3.7.1 is that it immediately dives into a particular solution space without an iota of discussion of what we require the solution to actually provide. I for one am not comfortable without those requirements to say that a particular solution is right, especially when coupled with extraordinary claims that this is "common" when it is plainly not. Mike From mcr@sandelman.ca Thu Mar 14 06:14:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262BE11E811B for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:14:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.288 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.288 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dPX6GoM-ULXV for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD8211E810D for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [130.129.16.118]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EAD622060 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:14:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sandelman.ca (quigon.sandelman.ca [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F2C6CA0C7 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:14:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: homenet@ietf.org In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Ray Pelletier message dated "Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:26:56 -0400." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:14:06 -0400 Message-ID: <16584.1363266846@sandelman.ca> Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:14:13 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >event Thursday evening 19:00-21:00. Everything has been working very=20 >well in fact we have several implementations running already including: > >* eRouter >* HIPNET >* Buffer Bloat >* HOMENET I don't take this to mean that HOMENET and HIPNET are interoperating? =2D-=20 Michael Richardson =2Don the road- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAABAgAGBQJRQc0dAAoJEKD0KQ7Gj3P2Q1gIAICsHFYNIvB4kKAXLCL37tWf Mns/Zy0r7FkKAAtS9hR0/co2apPdWxwI/EBY8r2Ocq3AU/zJFIb1FhyegGtU/1ZG nDshBA/m3+v/PpmvKpJELvKmVbLZfTlUbij4EWCVz18GsmnkH3W8mST7fQdMpdad +GqpBvgL7fyoBx6RiFUO0ypS7VgaKvwAtvnMeVxHz1n6XUGhe7WuBOdT1kPOi6uX MZ1XEQpCfAZrv2nuzNVY0V78dBsO1cuglhrj6/1JH06A3c1y5By2imTH3xET3ifv cyPMqNPyINy4f+u4VMHrsrAQN4vObLRt0hlJmprIAsSCotiJgpBWueJAmAupseE= =vmHF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Thu Mar 14 06:19:14 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80C321F8F53 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:19:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.288 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.288 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y8PAFDRruhnQ for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2935B21F8F43 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [130.129.16.118]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A15C22060; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:19:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sandelman.ca (quigon.sandelman.ca [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4911CCA0C7; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:19:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Mark Andrews In-reply-to: <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> Comments: In-reply-to Mark Andrews message dated "Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:47:52 +1100." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:19:09 -0400 Message-ID: <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: Tim Chown , Michael Thomas , Don Sturek , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:19:14 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Mark" =3D=3D Mark Andrews writes: >> I'm not a namedropper, but that doesn't sound like kosher DNS to >> me... sort of a weird split horizon. Mark> It is quite common for the stealth masters to exist (not Mark> listed in the NS RRset). It is also quite common for Mark> recursive servers to have local copies of zones that are in Mark> use locally but not be listed in the NS RRset. The update Mark> protocol supports forwarding of signed UPDATE requests where Mark> the forwarding server does NOT have the shared secret. Mark> homenet <> CER (master) <> listed authoritative servers <> Mark> rest of the world Mark> Now if you want this to work with the CER turned off while you Mark> are away and update to the zone to work then protocol work is Mark> needed to get multi-master working. I think that you are saying that there is software work, not that there is standards work? =2D-=20 Michael Richardson =2Don the road- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAABAgAGBQJRQc5NAAoJEKD0KQ7Gj3P2pOwH/A05gezDUG8ZY5mQ5I8SCIQ3 vwCKgm8xb5ofqZ6AP+4zIdqederVr+19R+OsCy2OX32rDCll2MFjDwGHggCsAbJb 7sSwvd0MSVCH4ZTfGV8OOS+1IVbVSNq048+sartvnKVl0irl5dSFeuUVG/8/nKVs Mkn1dY/VLVhsV57cQqXYF8ydkVpLPc5k0toReCY2LjbrTRgMOfXq/KaQFb5eBq37 Z+GzULodEKrtZw2LIrmvRSfhFDRf3bZy5FlgKFgTgfMAJAudle2Ye3flV4rPRlPA w0WoJd4+72IzsVVH+wJigUn5snTsyZivw9WulPbimkLC473IgoIqkM+IpBVcb8s= =xApd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Thu Mar 14 06:24:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B176411E80FD for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:24:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KgYpXSBk+b8S for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [76.96.32.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426CF11E80DF for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.116]) by copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id C7WM3M1.60821943; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:23:20 -0600 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by pacdcexhub03.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::5527:6d6b:29a7:f414%13]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:23:54 -0400 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: Michael Richardson , "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open Thread-Index: AQHOILXgVdee9EbeoEW53eZVNIsk85ilLOmA Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:23:54 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <16584.1363266846@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.70] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:24:03 -0000 While I was in the room I do not recall that we tried this, we certainly can throughout today. I will work with the participants below to post an update on our efforts. I received offline email that would be welcome. I assume these updates would be welcome to the larger HOMENET mailing list. Thanks, John =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D John Jason Brzozowski Comcast Cable m) 484-962-0060 e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com o) 609-377-6594 w) www.comcast6.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Michael Richardson Date: Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:14 AM To: HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open > >>event Thursday evening 19:00-21:00. Everything has been working very >>well in fact we have several implementations running already including: >> >>* eRouter >>* HIPNET >>* Buffer Bloat >>* HOMENET > >I don't take this to mean that HOMENET and HIPNET are interoperating? > >--=20 >Michael Richardson >-on the road- > > From lorenzo@google.com Thu Mar 14 06:25:58 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5805011E8113 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:25:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0izf7QJ42CaL for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-f41.google.com (mail-oa0-f41.google.com [209.85.219.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5CA821F906E for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id i10so2293951oag.0 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:25:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=qxO30WKICa5Mov9TOnNXdPfjdcrulE3g3PhxjsI3YZQ=; b=XKGP67s9E2gM2bHAWrvLN4eXQeRqmSw96z9N34WJzOBKT9ggxnMM4Hb20ODWnzU1BW 0XEUGEpibpzt34ensip3xd90Z76+ZuMrLSrupUJEQRA16DVdjliXjaSekcUse58i0eHc mL48+T/xKmwBZ/e6JoUKNluYR4R/wXtzmhTvPN1z0EyRRrDsWQoClNIn54af66iok3wB HiV0Sf/I3xiVZCrZNNpGo9JJr62fiLgFnnQPuohbShsqukHsJorR70TA5vRuH90oySXS at+sSj3lsjycXcErB64vQ8zyNeSCrqWqbEACs/0Z/IO62e+eNSsQ3bn+jSDocYCNcydD YukA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=qxO30WKICa5Mov9TOnNXdPfjdcrulE3g3PhxjsI3YZQ=; b=CKYUE+Pehwp6rPcFPEUsHLEbHCrkARZP4MkzrdnPRGmUr1T1OgWBPgKtTyGr9k/2Rl dtkBNdWFhKdIJ/4m5vvjC+SzGCC24QCrLhpnhROtMVg9zBSxkExQUaR8p3pnwKFTtQFg suY1L3qUXKXWxi28PZAgbY/caDVTHcqwH/XE9ZPzcjn+gyJILEmfV49mDSjZCwsWe6mP 5bj3zmHJPnfdKYrFINMaxaktt44mInXoGk4P1fzEhOqX/BXE5DFI3FpcV+TmEzlBjbCM bl+kzWdHOrQmMkNIryJQXH1ibRWVsyGzHOxwASo0Ap0mHsCdbM0Wq8ACznOR8Tcqru4d o4tA== X-Received: by 10.60.3.200 with SMTP id e8mr1098601oee.94.1363267557341; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:25:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.227.70 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:25:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <16584.1363266846@sandelman.ca> References: <16584.1363266846@sandelman.ca> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:25:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb1f55e7d6a9604d7e2761d X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk7PqanSv6Lw5JAZcthfuCbM3CHys6avYt6kYRl2PZdaA4Pr84Z3WW4fGZTqR24Syrrl5jR000MGSLennD/oTq4HWFHW8OZw6HtlPOzBs+OAg5LpOs/mfESiSXaz0WQ+1g/bQnD15zrUasOKkgazpx74Pj/pDPxblmbnOYAPikrxcsxRhuJ7TFvmnWxq7QL4gmcGw/P Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:25:58 -0000 --e89a8fb1f55e7d6a9604d7e2761d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > I don't take this to mean that HOMENET and HIPNET are interoperating? > We didn't try that. We expect a contiguous homenet network to work fine behind a HIPNET (it will just get a prefix via PD and use it), but HIPNET won't be able to get much of use from a SADR implementation. Mixing and matching devices wil not work. --e89a8fb1f55e7d6a9604d7e2761d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Michael Richardson <= mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
I don't take this to mean that HOMENET and HIPNET are interop= erating?

We didn't try that. We expect a = contiguous homenet network to work fine behind a HIPNET (it will just get a= prefix via PD and use it), but HIPNET won't be able to get much of use= from a SADR implementation.

Mixing and matching devices wil not work.
--e89a8fb1f55e7d6a9604d7e2761d-- From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Thu Mar 14 06:30:25 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C280411E8100 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:30:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.84 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.84 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dFrrrZYDdf46 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C76911E80FC for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (dhcp-2430.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.36.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A591E8A031 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:30:23 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:30:21 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20130314133021.GB49817@mx1.yitter.info> References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> <20130314111518.GA49644@mx1.yitter.info> <5141C54C.3030002@mtcc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5141C54C.3030002@mtcc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:30:25 -0000 On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 05:40:44AM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: > > The assertion that it is "common". Ok. Instead of getting into a fight about an empirical matter best resolved by doing a study of human behaviour (a capability that is mostly probably outside our collective expertise), can we just say that SD is used by some significant number of people in some cases, and that it is useful? > There is no inevitability to the status > quo, and we shouldn't proceed from that assumption. We should get > on with the job of defining requirements for the long run. Is there something about service discovery that you think we should not be doing? It sure seems to me like it is a friendlier answer than manual configuration. Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Thu Mar 14 06:32:14 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB2711E8115 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:32:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XH11vmt8Ho-Y for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [76.96.32.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52B411E8100 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.115]) by copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id C7WM3M1.60824117; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:31:25 -0600 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by PACDCEXHUB02.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::492e:3fa1:c2ad:e04e%13]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:32:00 -0400 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: Lorenzo Colitti , Michael Richardson Thread-Topic: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open Thread-Index: AQHOILdqVdee9EbeoEW53eZVNIsk85ilLygA Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:31:59 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.70] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <5F6F17C2EA85224F94F81ECD7468A231@cable.comcast.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:32:14 -0000 Will not work today or ever? Should we expect them to at some point? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D John Jason Brzozowski Comcast Cable m) 484-962-0060 e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com o) 609-377-6594 w) www.comcast6.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:25 AM To: Michael Richardson Cc: HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open >On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Michael Richardson > wrote: > >I don't take this to mean that HOMENET and HIPNET are interoperating? > > > > >We didn't try that. We expect a contiguous homenet network to work fine >behind a HIPNET (it will just get a prefix via PD and use it), but HIPNET >won't be able to get much of use from a SADR implementation. > > >Mixing and matching devices wil not work. > > > From mellon@fugue.com Thu Mar 14 06:32:44 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7948811E8113 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:32:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nRtNKwXGNOnk for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FCC111E8111 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-5421.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-5421.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.84.33]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3C4FA23814EB; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5141C54C.3030002@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:32:29 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <21F78CC7-5533-4D99-8C18-5DF54F4612C5@fugue.com> References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> <20130314111518.GA49644@mx1.yitter.info> <5141C54C.3030002@mtcc.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:32:47 -0000 On Mar 14, 2013, at 8:40 AM, Michael Thomas wrote: > The assertion that it is "common". It isn't. It's a way to amaze > your friends. It's also irksome that "common" assumes a uniformity > of i's and airs as you mention. Michael, with all due respect, you are out to lunch here. It is how a = lot of people connect their speakers to the device that they use to play = recorded music. It is how a lot of people watch TV. It's true that = this stuff is more commonly used in the younger generations, but its use = is quite widespread, and will become more widespread over time. So we = have to talk about it in the architecture document, or the document will = be irrelevant. From mellon@fugue.com Thu Mar 14 06:38:54 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72F721F8D19 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:38:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ejj2YfXIhme5 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21E721F8D12 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-5421.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-5421.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.84.33]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22957238173D; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <21F78CC7-5533-4D99-8C18-5DF54F4612C5@fugue.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:38:53 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9776C7AF-AC34-4F9B-BFF9-30754B4B8BEE@fugue.com> References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> <20130314111518.GA49644@mx1.yitter.info> <5141C54C.3030002@mtcc.com> <21F78CC7-5533-4D99-8C18-5DF54F4612C5@fugue.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:38:54 -0000 On Mar 14, 2013, at 9:32 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > So we have to talk about it in the architecture document, or the = document will be irrelevant. I have been reminded to point out that all of the discussion I've been = having here has been with my AD hat off. The above could certainly be = interpreted as an AD statement, but that is not how I intended it. From mike@mtcc.com Thu Mar 14 06:41:17 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19A911E80DE for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:41:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9uGeTuXUm1TE for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C41621F8D31 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2EDf7Jb008967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:41:07 -0700 Message-ID: <5141D373.1020808@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:41:07 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> <20130314111518.GA49644@mx1.yitter.info> <5141C54C.3030002@mtcc.com> <21F78CC7-5533-4D99-8C18-5DF54F4612C5@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <21F78CC7-5533-4D99-8C18-5DF54F4612C5@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1011; t=1363268467; x=1364132467; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Wide=20Area=20DNS-Based=20S ervice=20Discovery=20walkthrough |Sender:=20 |To:=20Ted=20Lemon=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=F/+lC4l55Nh9+qPl8WtC6GqYjYsnTtSFFcmXCiKxBnI=; b=N413fIed7NVTmEYJMR8VzAAwv0HFl77m0BLHSG1GU3sam3RdMHC51Dw120 n6x005unfpFy+tvdMN6kUh3FQob0k0ZjC3vhmvbg8P+1v3pQljD7qhwRXyA5 8minTYxE9EN5wEJ58X5ZIZmWsBV2l/LLrIOpywcKe/fr9Mq8GJzLA=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:41:18 -0000 On 03/14/2013 06:32 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 14, 2013, at 8:40 AM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> The assertion that it is "common". It isn't. It's a way to amaze >> your friends. It's also irksome that "common" assumes a uniformity >> of i's and airs as you mention. > Michael, with all due respect, you are out to lunch here. It is how a lot of people connect their speakers to the device that they use to play recorded music. It is how a lot of people watch TV. It's true that this stuff is more commonly used in the younger generations, but its use is quite widespread, and will become more widespread over time. So we have to talk about it in the architecture document, or the document will be irrelevant. Recall that my initial point is that the arch document should provide more background, motivation and most especially requirements. There is *none* of that right now. My push back about "common" is against the notion that this is all self-evident. It's not. Mike From mike@mtcc.com Thu Mar 14 06:45:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0956111E8129 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:45:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.733 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.733 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.866, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D0vbr6sMD4UW for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14A211E8124 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2EDjWDx010495 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:45:33 -0700 Message-ID: <5141D47C.2060109@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:45:32 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Sullivan References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> <20130314111518.GA49644@mx1.yitter.info> <5141C54C.3030002@mtcc.com> <20130314133021.GB49817@mx1.yitter.info> In-Reply-To: <20130314133021.GB49817@mx1.yitter.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=428; t=1363268733; x=1364132733; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Wide=20Area=20DNS-Based=20S ervice=20Discovery=20walkthrough |Sender:=20 |To:=20Andrew=20Sullivan=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=93vhALHkv+bapzDz1y/EJiXuFJvnbsKxsRc1mUFi9kI=; b=RnlZMupsl3Z2O8/e2m7nlUvEHcuX68lb7dToYVZArCjCdamSZUKVjpQZ3h jSCsb9DdFM+jJPR02GKh6/ywEij7xN0xmKXasCFrFJm98KmUQWHB1PCgb9Ij qOd0pAfX9llejSTM2ZQz0KRyBc3NcTEJ26a1iZbO8vMTxi70RG9m4=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:45:42 -0000 On 03/14/2013 06:30 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > Is there something about service discovery that you think we should > not be doing? It sure seems to me like it is a friendlier answer than > manual configuration. > All I want is the document to say why we want it and what we want it to do. I keep getting told this is all self-evident which sets my bs detector off. Is this really too much to ask for? Mike From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Thu Mar 14 06:46:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3510011E8130 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:46:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.84 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.84 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dkTunEPO-g78 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E0F11E8123 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (dhcp-2430.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.36.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 251CC8A031 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:46:32 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:46:30 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20130314134630.GB49858@mx1.yitter.info> References: <20130314030354.GB49243@mx1.yitter.info> <51418982.7080201@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <51418982.7080201@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [homenet] Naming and internationalization X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:46:35 -0000 On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 08:25:38AM +0000, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Yes, but shouldn't there be a normative reference to IDNA? If so, we should also include a reference to the "preferred syntax" discussion in STD 13 or maybe to the hostname syntax. But sure. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From simon@thekelleys.org.uk Thu Mar 14 06:50:25 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F2121F8A98 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:50:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id msreAkKSyoWS for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eyas.biff.org.uk (eyas.biff.org.uk [IPv6:2001:41c8:1:519c::20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63FD21F8A71 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cl-1441.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net ([2a01:348:6:5a0::2]:34829 helo=central.thekelleys.org.uk) by eyas.biff.org.uk with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1UG8Y3-000674-Rf for homenet@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:50:24 +0000 Received: from guest-193-062-204-112.wtgc.org ([193.62.204.112]) by central.thekelleys.org.uk with esmtpa (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1UG8Y3-00069K-8f for homenet@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:50:23 +0000 Message-ID: <5141D58B.7030506@thekelleys.org.uk> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:50:03 +0000 From: Simon Kelley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121011 Thunderbird/16.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:50:25 -0000 On 14/03/13 05:21, Stuart Cheshire wrote: > There's been some discussion about service discovery. Anyone who prints > wirelessly from their iPhone or iPad without typing in an IP address is > using service discovery. Anyone who’s watched video on a web page on > their iPad, and then tapped the screen to transfer the video playback to > their television, without typing in its IP address, is using service > discovery. Anyone who’s streamed music from their iPhone to their > wireless AirPlay speakers, or controlled their TiVo from its iPad app, > or shown a slide show from their phone on a friend's television screen, > or given a university lecture by beaming their presentation wirelessly > from their laptop to the video projector, all without typing in any > names or IP addresses, has been using service discovery. > > This is all commonly done today, but generally only on the local link. > We'd like similar ease of use in larger networks too. I recently > submitted this draft: > > > > > Here at IETF, the records are added to the DNS manually by our capable > network volunteers. The idea of the Hybrid Proxy is to populate the DNS > namespace automatically, making Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery > available to a broader community of users. I'm concerned that that basis of this whole discovery mechanism is the "domain name" DHCP option. The service discovery mechanism has now migrated to the DNS, so all services are potentially discoverable from anywhere; that's good. But the concept of what's "local" is now hung exclusively on the value of DHCP option 15. DHCP option 15 most be one of the most overloaded and least well characterised of any DHCP options. Lots of homenet-type installations will have it set to ".lan" or something similar. Some will set it to ".local" only to discover that the .local TLD has been usurped. It's used frequently as substitute for the "domain name search list" option but concatentating more than one domain with spaces, for clients which don't support the later option. It's somewhat succeeded by the FQDN option, and therefore not supplied. DHCPv6 doesn't have, AFAIR an equivalent, only the FQDN option. Now, we want to overload with yet another meaning. Is that wise? Wouldn't defining a new option be better? Simon. From andrewmcgr@gmail.com Thu Mar 14 06:59:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E65521F8EA2 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:59:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.220, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KaoMk9HBiNdT for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f174.google.com (mail-lb0-f174.google.com [209.85.217.174]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848C221F8E77 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f174.google.com with SMTP id l12so1913155lbo.33 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:59:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=kNo0pn2JLmp9JnWOLSE7b9oK3egocs9Du3XTs9CHv+4=; b=I6wTCQ5JJkLbeZnAUM3VcZhu1+45EySZ2YHRiIuRtuvRBP06UQ2D7A7SXiH+wD+Qb7 J0liLwh3YrDYWJtMVscAOFlc6UO131K5pPbZKa0B6g4RdOC6GmSqAsb8GpQ3qauFvuT7 5tbkcGr4qbEV0L4PYSVJyRd+a3EgJSxlVcC7hH9q7VUHnc4H9tzJaFVsJvoQgfSjOmd3 siH+SvbmD/6N6bKXBzO6T36ONFp7HZgcpRkY0LTEcRbkjEtcdF+nET4l3Nc1Fq2T9fb6 j1GILhzMCQvuBBnSTvBlVnUlN4lo7Wk/2F5jbImDS6fm5/k/MzVWRv+CnXLXQfb8KYBe f3EQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.47.242 with SMTP id g18mr2245414lan.42.1363269555730; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.21.7 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:59:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <514164DF.6060505@mtcc.com> References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> <3835B421-D99A-4322-94EA-28258FF43FF2@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <5141194C.5020601@mtcc.com> <514164DF.6060505@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:59:15 -0400 Message-ID: From: Andrew McGregor To: Michael Thomas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec55404229a3c8204d7e2ed9c Cc: Tim Chown , Ted Lemon , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:59:32 -0000 --bcaec55404229a3c8204d7e2ed9c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Ah, that makes much more sense. That's true, however there are some existing solutions that partially work, and I don't think them bad. Limited, yes, but not bad. So it isn't crazy to think of extending them. Andrew On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/13/2013 09:23 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > >> On Mar 13, 2013, at 8:26 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> >>> Mike, purposeful luddite >>> >> It's worth noting that we _do_ need to serve the needs of people who buy >> and use modern devices, not just luddites, much as we may fondly prefer to >> be luddites ourselves. >> > > My point here all along is that there is no inevitability about the > so-called > status quo about the way things are named on homenets. This is still in its > infancy and we should do the right thing rather than figure out how to hack > on bad solutions to make them suck less. > > Mike > > ______________________________**_________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/homenet > --bcaec55404229a3c8204d7e2ed9c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ah, that makes much more sense.

T= hat's true, however there are some existing solutions that partially wo= rk, and I don't think them bad. =A0Limited, yes, but not bad. =A0So it = isn't crazy to think of extending them.

Andrew


On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 1:49 AM, Micha= el Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
On 03/13/2013 09:23 PM, Te= d Lemon wrote:
On Mar 13, 2013, at 8:26 PM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:
Mike, purposeful luddite
It's worth noting that we _do_ need to serve the needs of people who bu= y and use modern devices, not just luddites, much as we may fondly prefer t= o be luddites ourselves.

My point here all along is that there is no inevitability about the so-call= ed
status quo about the way things are named on homenets. This is still in its=
infancy and we should do the right thing rather than figure out how to hack=
on bad solutions to make them suck less.

Mike

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--bcaec55404229a3c8204d7e2ed9c-- From simon@thekelleys.org.uk Thu Mar 14 07:02:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355CD11E80E1 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:02:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 81+g2DYuThis for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eyas.biff.org.uk (eyas.biff.org.uk [IPv6:2001:41c8:1:519c::20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A82821F8F64 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cl-1441.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net ([2a01:348:6:5a0::2]:34843 helo=central.thekelleys.org.uk) by eyas.biff.org.uk with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1UG8jN-0006AB-Hs for homenet@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:02:05 +0000 Received: from guest-193-062-204-112.wtgc.org ([193.62.204.112]) by central.thekelleys.org.uk with esmtpa (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1UG8jM-0006Sd-Ua for homenet@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:02:05 +0000 Message-ID: <5141D848.3010100@thekelleys.org.uk> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:01:44 +0000 From: Simon Kelley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121011 Thunderbird/16.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140F438.3020304@mtcc.com> <8045BE4F-FA2D-4E2C-AFBA-9C174DF76B15@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <8045BE4F-FA2D-4E2C-AFBA-9C174DF76B15@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [homenet] mdns populating repositories? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:02:18 -0000 On 13/03/13 22:14, Ted Lemon wrote: > > Stuart Cheshire has a draft describing how to populate a DNS zone > using mDNS. It's not a bad idea, although I don't think the > architecture document should mention it—there is at least one other > alternative, and by mentioning solely mDNS we are making a decision > that I don't think has general agreement. > It would be interesting to attempt to prototype this in dnsmasq. Since dnsmasq is already a repository for local names harvested via DHCP or hand-configured, mDNS is an obvious extra source of naming information. In the latest development version dnsmasq can export that repository (ie act as a target for delegation, or AXFR requests) so that makes possible wide-area discovery of a node on a homenet which a) gets a global IPv6 address and b) advertises itself over mDNS. There's also some basic domain-rewriting in there, it would be interesting to see how that could be generalised to the procedure described in Stuart's draft. Simon. From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Thu Mar 14 07:09:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1048821F8D57 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:09:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.84 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.84 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S-IJ6xvZ47gF for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462AE11E815E for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (dhcp-2430.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.36.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B4CFD8A031 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:09:22 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:09:20 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20130314140920.GD49858@mx1.yitter.info> References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> <20130314111518.GA49644@mx1.yitter.info> <5141C54C.3030002@mtcc.com> <20130314133021.GB49817@mx1.yitter.info> <5141D47C.2060109@mtcc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5141D47C.2060109@mtcc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:09:28 -0000 On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 06:45:32AM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: > > All I want is the document to say why we want it and what we want > it to do. I keep getting told this is all self-evident which sets my bs > detector off. Ok. The -07 draft covers this in 3.7.1 for service discovery. Is the problem that it doesn't say what kinds of "services" are to be discovered? A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From kerlyn2001@gmail.com Thu Mar 14 07:32:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2641511E8189 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xPqgukop5rqz for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-f53.google.com (mail-oa0-f53.google.com [209.85.219.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B5611E8188 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id m1so2358469oag.12 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:32:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=BrHDl0WCkV70F3u/Wo3/fNwY0ebBRTiWOSvK+oohFCk=; b=F1YsRU/VkjRTwvP/o/VtALyNFE9zDJnhMP8HHE0LwIu5ZVEuaWzFFIRtG3juwRoG3w 5yAHEmWdod5+WovBwSAwV9NP1L4PEHEVCCdqdm96EwJxQcjYworg//rVv0eDideClRXs MF7boQhpeMmf8VwYZDf0tp4YKUCX5KhTPU4HluRCQ35AX/Y7lKemsOZZWgrLA2QhRg8t 5CI8xl/4rxJxjE/5yQPHh5xGSwoAeygMz26kc8Cd+suq0bjitwAxHk6dm7WB+HXj8pf/ Ow2hwqiQOLAVlmc/DDNI2SssHJcTaQOMxoZ9RlrkSrtgzXvIkgJWPnd7aCCm9ONEqeb9 c8iw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.12.137 with SMTP id y9mr1174219oeb.88.1363271559600; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Sender: kerlyn2001@gmail.com Received: by 10.60.4.233 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:32:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5141D47C.2060109@mtcc.com> References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> <20130314111518.GA49644@mx1.yitter.info> <5141C54C.3030002@mtcc.com> <20130314133021.GB49817@mx1.yitter.info> <5141D47C.2060109@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:32:39 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: dZa0-QAusdwf2glDqkbeNUua7iY Message-ID: From: Kerry Lynn To: Michael Thomas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb202440ae4d404d7e3655d Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:32:43 -0000 --e89a8fb202440ae4d404d7e3655d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:45 AM, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/14/2013 06:30 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > >> >> Is there something about service discovery that you think we should >> not be doing? It sure seems to me like it is a friendlier answer than >> manual configuration. >> >> > All I want is the document to say why we want it and what we want > it to do. I keep getting told this is all self-evident which sets my bs > detector off. > > Is this really too much to ask for? > > It's a working group document. Feel free to contribute text as well as criticism. -K- > Mike > > ______________________________**_________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/homenet > --e89a8fb202440ae4d404d7e3655d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:45 AM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> = wrote:
On 03/14/2013 06:30 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

Is there something about service discovery that you think we should
not be doing? =A0It sure seems to me like it is a friendlier answer than manual configuration.


All I want is the document to say why we want it and what we want
it to do. I keep getting told this is all self-evident which sets my bs
detector off.

Is this really too much to ask for?

It's a working group document.=A0 Feel free to co= ntribute text as well as criticism.

-K-
=A0
Mike

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--e89a8fb202440ae4d404d7e3655d-- From yusuke.doi@toshiba.co.jp Thu Mar 14 07:36:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B215111E8141 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:36:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eVoDXRg57OCS for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imx2.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06FA311E8126 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tsbmgw-mgw02.tsbmgw-mgw02.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.200.50]) by imx2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id r2EEaevu009156 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:36:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbmgw-mgw02 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tsbmgw-mgw02.tsbmgw-mgw02.toshiba.co.jp (8.13.8/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2EEaeFR003259 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:36:40 +0900 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by tsbmgw-mgw02 (JAMES SMTP Server 2.3.1) with SMTP ID 761 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:36:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from arc1.toshiba.co.jp ([133.199.194.235]) by tsbmgw-mgw02.tsbmgw-mgw02.toshiba.co.jp (8.13.8/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2EEae0m003253 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:36:40 +0900 Received: (from root@localhost) by arc1.toshiba.co.jp id r2EEaeMR008082 for homenet@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:36:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from unknown [133.199.192.144] by arc1.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id ZAA08081; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:36:40 +0900 Received: from mx12.toshiba.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ovp2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id r2EEadng022999 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:36:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from spiffy21.isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id r2EEadEm010452; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:36:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from [133.199.17.179] (ivpn-2-179.mobile.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.17.179]) by spiffy21.isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC84197D33; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:36:37 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <5141E074.9000905@toshiba.co.jp> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:36:36 -0400 From: Yusuke DOI User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130215 Thunderbird/17.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Thomas References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> <20130314111518.GA49644@mx1.yitter.info> <5141C54C.3030002@mtcc.com> <21F78CC7-5533-4D99-8C18-5DF54F4612C5@fugue.com> <5141D373.1020808@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <5141D373.1020808@mtcc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Ted Lemon , Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:36:42 -0000 Hi, Let me jump-in from home appliance manufacturer perspective. (2013/03/14 9:41), Michael Thomas wrote: > Recall that my initial point is that the arch document should provide more > background, motivation and most especially requirements. There is *none* > of that right now. My push back about "common" is against the notion that > this is all self-evident. It's not. As Chris mentioned in his presentation, protocols and services become complex day-by-day, but users don't. We can memorize many IP address, domain names, or URLs to select/specify communcation endpoint. But we cannot expect our home customers to do so. Applications in home networks (including M2M applications like SEP2 but not limited to) naturally have their goal to communicate, but does not have a priori knowledge of the surrowinding environment. Thus they need some binding mechanism between a goal and communication endpoints that serve for the goal. In general, this kind of mechanism is called 'service discovery'. Hoping it helps the discussion. // Yusuke DOI From mbehring@cisco.com Thu Mar 14 08:40:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C486C11E8192 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:40:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qOKN9mb+1zow for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D44B811E8133 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:40:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1907; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1363275607; x=1364485207; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=XbXwjqshorby3e+95/ktglXWRqyqo/mU/WIKh3oQVuY=; b=iX+52oTdtNFuG5bMGLtRJ8cOj/kaqfkmjAEyQm9NeBndHKDOCoHwJVwM 3mqDeptrdRI4xkpVSs5GmOeHkDD980zNrCBil9mDyhbMeT6R6JZNu0VUf HXY8B4CuwPd2zaTpU+9LXBzpTGT321+6RF1p9wsgMMwoAMlJEjJKVsyVI 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFALruQVGtJV2c/2dsb2JhbABDDsRqgWIWdIIqAQEBAwEBAQE3NBAHBgEIDgMBAwEBAQoUCS4LFAMGCQEEARIIiAYGDMFABI5fJhiCWWEDp1qCSz+CKA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,845,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="187491569" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2013 15:40:06 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com [173.37.183.82]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2EFe646009890 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:40:06 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.51]) by xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com ([173.37.183.82]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:40:06 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Thread-Topic: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? Thread-Index: Ac4gyjI7rRa09jDESjm4TcI0Yw8B/Q== Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:40:05 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.83.162] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:40:08 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: homenet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Tim Chown > Sent: 13 March 2013 16:36 > To: homenet@ietf.org Group > Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust- > bootstrap? >=20 > On 5 Mar 2013, at 17:52, Michael Behringer (mbehring) > wrote: >=20 > > Our draft shows a way to do that in a relatively simple and secure way.= I > believe this is a fundamental requirement in a homenet; there are other > ways to more or less achieve this goal - that needs to be discussed. But = we > should have the discussion. >=20 > If you have text to propose for the arch text, please do so. There will be cases where two homenets are adjacent, or where a visitor plu= gs in a device that doesn't belong to the homenet. We need to be able to co= ntrol that.=20 I suggest a subsection in the security section (3.6) to address this. This = could sound something like:=20 -- 3.6.6. Device ownership There must be a way to administratively assert whether a device belongs to = a homenet or not. The goal is to allow the establishment of borders, for ex= ample between two adjacent homenets or between the service provider and the= homenet; and to avoid unauthorized devices from participating in the homen= et.=20 The homenet architecture MUST support a way for a homenet owner to claim ow= nership of his devices in a reasonably secure way. This could be achieved b= y a pairing mechanisms, by for example pressing buttons simultaneously on a= n authenticated and a new homenet device. Or by an enrolment process, as de= scribed in [draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap]. -- Thoughts?=20 Michael=20 =20 > Tim > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From outbackdingo@gmail.com Thu Mar 14 08:46:04 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63DA011E81C9 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:46:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4HrrlnwUxxiE for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-f42.google.com (mail-oa0-f42.google.com [209.85.219.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A062811E818D for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id i18so2447597oag.1 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:46:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=cG2CAboMZUf/gJKBVmmb1s4gm9sU5Qs3bAx1Zqv+Gb8=; b=b6MKKVKU+GrjOu6hjqZALEcR1HjIBq85Dz/PoTUnZlgZlXoHw9bKPk3UoaOn5MxUY3 fNEnBddwbS2YBSTBTq2Hemte8J7aCZgfKGSIUiwyKdgwx3XQ+whyEUEgFm0J0prlZw6S EkXewvntc72vXhZ3JWa3nQ+C864f3YDveewF7z6kgRHfFKcEIfJXMZiER+BTfqiAb5SP 483LpwcAf1j4ulkvNkKLz+oXWLYd6fp12OEbKzbCn6urM/x5kkSyzvSkxetDC3Tumsxu LXez/GeFio2lye9+PsedZuBx1Ag2R2jK4NnUIyb0RiMWPHpnL7s+oYnNoFHxVAX/4toL wVyA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.51.98 with SMTP id j2mr1340141obo.77.1363275963298; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.9.8 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:46:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <16584.1363266846@sandelman.ca> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:46:03 -0400 Message-ID: From: Outback Dingo To: Lorenzo Colitti Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0444815785f72b04d7e46baa Cc: Michael Richardson , "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:46:04 -0000 --f46d0444815785f72b04d7e46baa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Michael Richardson > wrote: > >> I don't take this to mean that HOMENET and HIPNET are interoperating? >> > > We didn't try that. We expect a contiguous homenet network to work fine > behind a HIPNET (it will just get a prefix via PD and use it), but HIPNET > won't be able to get much of use from a SADR implementation. > Okay, Im familiar with Bufferbloat :) whats HomeNET and HIPNET ?? and who sells this eRouter platform ?? I need to catch up here. > Mixing and matching devices wil not work. > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > --f46d0444815785f72b04d7e46baa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Lorenzo Colitti = <lorenzo@google.= com> wrote:
On Thu, M= ar 14, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca&= gt; wrote:
I d= on't take this to mean that HOMENET and HIPNET are interoperating?

We didn't try that. We expect a = contiguous homenet network to work fine behind a HIPNET (it will just get a= prefix via PD and use it), but HIPNET won't be able to get much of use= from a SADR implementation.

Okay, Im familiar = with Bufferbloat :) whats HomeNET and HIPNET ?? and who sells this eRouter = platform ?? I need to catch up here.
=A0
=A0
Mixing and matching devices wil not work.

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


--f46d0444815785f72b04d7e46baa-- From mike@mtcc.com Thu Mar 14 08:48:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7110821F90C7 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:48:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qBqfk3kfX69h for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B80A21F8E74 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2EFmGCw020772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:48:16 -0700 Message-ID: <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:48:16 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1911; t=1363276096; x=1364140096; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Next=20steps=20for=20draft- behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Michael=20Behringer=20(mbehring)=22=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=aXRdvh5sGflvzzraIBU0YADEZ5+4jz6eeJB36xUUjEc=; b=PEjVuNCAERvyVNfwLqCVXCIjjUVy6H2C84wZ/S7jCUIPRk629AOVD+LMnU 2gqC9wVGf7m/o6yfIt5RGbSixvL+8aSBYAc1Mrc0powiIPPzoPOeveKYltcI SGHZPYTwr/lqVWGLGKv0aiD+SgmGrEd54wMbYyOrHXl3Ix4QGsgrE=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:48:57 -0000 On 03/14/2013 08:40 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: homenet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Tim Chown >> Sent: 13 March 2013 16:36 >> To: homenet@ietf.org Group >> Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust- >> bootstrap? >> >> On 5 Mar 2013, at 17:52, Michael Behringer (mbehring) >> wrote: >> >>> Our draft shows a way to do that in a relatively simple and secure way. I >> believe this is a fundamental requirement in a homenet; there are other >> ways to more or less achieve this goal - that needs to be discussed. But we >> should have the discussion. >> >> If you have text to propose for the arch text, please do so. > There will be cases where two homenets are adjacent, or where a visitor plugs in a device that doesn't belong to the homenet. We need to be able to control that. > > I suggest a subsection in the security section (3.6) to address this. This could sound something like: > > -- > 3.6.6. Device ownership > > There must be a way to administratively assert whether a device belongs to a homenet or not. The goal is to allow the establishment of borders, for example between two adjacent homenets or between the service provider and the homenet; and to avoid unauthorized devices from participating in the homenet. > > The homenet architecture MUST support a way for a homenet owner to claim ownership of his devices in a reasonably secure way. This could be achieved by a pairing mechanisms, by for example pressing buttons simultaneously on an authenticated and a new homenet device. Or by an enrolment process, as described in [draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap]. > In today's world access control is gated at L2 via wpa or similar. Are you suggesting that we have a L3 equivalent? In addition? In replacement? Mike From christopher_tuska@cable.comcast.com Thu Mar 14 09:38:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D7C21F8C2A for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:38:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id En7GIBEZQLLi for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [69.241.43.119]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2ED21F8C08 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([147.191.109.24]) by pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 97wm3m1.46381712; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:37:14 -0400 Received: from COPDCEXMB09.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.246]) by copdcexhub04.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::8952:4d82:130a:e769%16]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:38:50 -0600 From: "Tuska, Christopher" To: Outback Dingo , Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open Thread-Index: AQHOIEJSDv9d/DyNZ0qhgmoqFLhHvZilj6wAgAAT/ICAACc8gP//mQoQ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:38:49 +0000 Message-ID: <4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A5458942A@COPDCEXMB09.cable.comcast.com> References: <16584.1363266846@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [76.96.69.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A5458942ACOPDCEXMB09cabl_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Michael Richardson , "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:38:59 -0000 --_000_4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A5458942ACOPDCEXMB09cabl_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The eRouter is an Arris TG862 device, more info found here: http://www.arri= si.com/products/product.asp?id=3D79 Thank You, Chris Tuska Senior Network Engineer, Comcast National CMTS Operations \ IPv6 Project /phone/ 720.267.7511 /cell/ 720.560.6306 From: homenet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Outback Dingo Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:46 AM To: Lorenzo Colitti Cc: Michael Richardson; homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Lorenzo Colitti > wrote: On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Michael Richardson > wrote: I don't take this to mean that HOMENET and HIPNET are interoperating? We didn't try that. We expect a contiguous homenet network to work fine beh= ind a HIPNET (it will just get a prefix via PD and use it), but HIPNET won'= t be able to get much of use from a SADR implementation. Okay, Im familiar with Bufferbloat :) whats HomeNET and HIPNET ?? and who s= ells this eRouter platform ?? I need to catch up here. Mixing and matching devices wil not work. _______________________________________________ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --_000_4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A5458942ACOPDCEXMB09cabl_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The eRouter is an Arris T= G862 device, more info found here: http://www.a= rrisi.com/products/product.asp?id=3D79

 <= /p>

Thank You,

 <= /p>

Chris Tuska

Senior Network Engineer, = Comcast

National CMTS Operations = \ IPv6 Project

/phone/ 720.267.7511=

/cell/ 720.560.6306<= /o:p>

 <= /p>

From: homenet-= bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Outback Dingo
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:46 AM
To: Lorenzo Colitti
Cc: Michael Richardson; homenet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open

 

 

 

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Lorenzo Colitti <= ;lorenzo@google.com= > wrote:

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Michael Richardson = <mcr+= ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

I don't take this to m= ean that HOMENET and HIPNET are interoperating?

 

We didn't try that. We expect a contiguous homenet n= etwork to work fine behind a HIPNET (it will just get a prefix via PD and u= se it), but HIPNET won't be able to get much of use from a SADR implementat= ion.

 

Okay, Im familiar with Bufferbloat :) whats HomeNET = and HIPNET ?? and who sells this eRouter platform ?? I need to catch up her= e.

 

 

Mixing and matching devices wil not work.=


_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

 

--_000_4BB76EDF3636C54CB27F3840125BD97A5458942ACOPDCEXMB09cabl_-- From mbehring@cisco.com Thu Mar 14 10:03:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C9C11E813D for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:03:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z6KpxTXWhubV for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 040E711E8110 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:03:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=708; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1363280591; x=1364490191; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=QJPl/WDEHxfbBy6jTblvLyYF/VY5/RL9pBUPqFaw3fI=; b=kVXhELOBkTfHTiiuKcNDiiupof6xQVYY1Z78BZSc4/zxW/+im3HupIrg DNFtY+u7fzx+HuZM3pkUN9bjY57Ai0u3Y506rxraUGwzeTQ2oRORQhaMT 7OUL6NO2LEfgtk5KEFj7nGfGYXAZ4duVLfLBSTzjEvDEoOGBK/IouoEKu c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AisFAKQBQlGtJXHB/2dsb2JhbABDh2W9GoFlFnSCKwEBAQMBOj8FCwIBCA4HDRQJBzIUEQEBBA4FCBOHcwbCCo5fMQeCX2EDp1qDCoIo X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,845,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="187314918" Received: from rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com ([173.37.113.193]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2013 17:03:10 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x09.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x09.cisco.com [173.36.12.83]) by rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2EH3AW3028128 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:03:10 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.51]) by xhc-aln-x09.cisco.com ([173.36.12.83]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:03:10 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Michael Thomas Thread-Topic: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? Thread-Index: Ac4gyjI7rRa09jDESjm4TcI0Yw8B/QAKw4sAAAgh9XA= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:03:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.83.162] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:03:15 -0000 > From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mike@mtcc.com] [...] > In today's world access control is gated at L2 via wpa or similar. Are yo= u > suggesting that we have a L3 equivalent? In addition? In replacement? We need a solution to this problem. I think this is the first important thi= ng to note, and so far it isn't noted (or I missed it). Which solution is o= pen for discussion.=20 Can we agree thus far?=20 Then, the referenced draft [draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap] is wha= t we were thinking about, high level. We're happy to work on a more detaile= d version of what we're proposing, but before we'd like to understand wheth= er it's actually in scope or not? ;-)=20 Michael From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com Thu Mar 14 12:34:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B47B311E8166 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:34:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zd+Imp0Px5It for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [76.96.32.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB5C511E80BF for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.114]) by copdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id C7WM3M1.60923819; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:33:31 -0600 Received: from PACDCEXMB01.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.1.218]) by PACDCEXHUB01.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::84e8:95f3:f13b:169e%12]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:34:07 -0400 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: Outback Dingo , Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open Thread-Index: AQHOIMsIVdee9EbeoEW53eZVNIsk85illCKA Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:34:05 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.1.130117 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.70] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <4C8745A92140114DA579DD79B3E99C68@cable.comcast.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Michael Richardson , "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:34:12 -0000 HOMENET is what I chose to call one of the implementations that is a result of some of the work in the same WG. HIPNET is an implementation of a DRAFT that was submitted to HOMENET in February (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-01). eRouter is specified by Cablelabs, more information can be found here (http://www.cablelabs.com/cablemodem/specifications/e-router.html) HTH, John =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D John Jason Brzozowski Comcast Cable m) 484-962-0060 e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com o) 609-377-6594 w) www.comcast6.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Outback Dingo Date: Thursday, March 14, 2013 11:46 AM To: Lorenzo Colitti Cc: Michael Richardson , HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open > > > >On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Lorenzo Colitti > wrote: > >On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Michael Richardson > wrote: > > >I don't take this to mean that HOMENET and HIPNET are interoperating? > > > > > >We didn't try that. We expect a contiguous homenet network to work fine >behind a HIPNET (it will just get a prefix via PD and use it), but HIPNET >won't be able to get much of use from a SADR implementation. > > > > > > > >Okay, Im familiar with Bufferbloat :) whats HomeNET and HIPNET ?? and who >sells this eRouter platform ?? I need to catch up here. >=20 >=20 > >Mixing and matching devices wil not work. > > > > >_______________________________________________ >homenet mailing list >homenet@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > > > > > > From dave.taht@gmail.com Thu Mar 14 12:56:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6389B11E825F for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:56:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YBMzVnJZlSdN for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x235.google.com (mail-ie0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D397D11E825E for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f181.google.com with SMTP id 17so3447783iea.40 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:56:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CILYpMKxZYWYuQkYJtYHOlh0tte+Zzp1K0dYLnVLsZY=; b=k19dZcxxBVSzLJFRkP260S6E2fB3nSLKQ6WF7GNmZi6xilnpiGkumPla/5Pt9gk8mQ WvQxcLu0WlH0kbmk+YTGJZLO4B+LnjnISbd5gQZXuCxa9B+ozaNaxGvcp84OWPkbJkuI qhBDX3GZQZDq/trcOtLLYO+EfIy3xXuU5fJfY5oonCdJOt0E0VDMhiE3vLW6dztcI8nX 9iNwUJvZyTmOgFMqeDdTo1L50yUQqO1JeGcygZ6PyFH6/8PfADqCrpJUSvzLSJbXj4Zx TzSueePKjnxDC4ZhVE3Gy2uF4YpEvz91r0PIfEXk2vdoWI/B6PmT8K9eGkyeJY9fpD5X UMaQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.36.169 with SMTP id r9mr21636571igj.96.1363290971617; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.132.71 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:56:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:56:11 -0400 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: "Brzozowski, John" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Michael Richardson , Outback Dingo , "homenet@ietf.org" , Lorenzo Colitti Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:56:16 -0000 I incidentally note that cerowrt implements quite a bit of homenet's ideas, too. I have been too busy fixing bufferbloat to be able to follow latest developments, nor have I successfully made a case for cerowrt's more interesting ideas (mesh routing in particular) to the homenet groups. cerowrt for example, comes with a lightweight dhcp-pd implementation while the other groups are using very heavyweight stuff. I do hope that the hipnet and homenet groups adopt some variant of fq_codel in their codebases soon, and I do hope to take a look at the ospfv6 stuff the homenet group has done, particularly as to address distribution, as On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Brzozowski, John wrote: > HOMENET is what I chose to call one of the implementations that is a > result of some of the work in the same WG. > > HIPNET is an implementation of a DRAFT that was submitted to HOMENET in > February (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-01). > > eRouter is specified by Cablelabs, more information can be found here > (http://www.cablelabs.com/cablemodem/specifications/e-router.html) > > HTH, > > John > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > John Jason Brzozowski > Comcast Cable > m) 484-962-0060 > e) john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com > o) 609-377-6594 > w) www.comcast6.net > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Outback Dingo > Date: Thursday, March 14, 2013 11:46 AM > To: Lorenzo Colitti > Cc: Michael Richardson , HOMENET > Subject: Re: [homenet] [86all] Bits-N-Bites Lab Open > >> >> >> >>On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Lorenzo Colitti >> wrote: >> >>On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Michael Richardson >> wrote: >> >> >>I don't take this to mean that HOMENET and HIPNET are interoperating? >> >> >> >> >> >>We didn't try that. We expect a contiguous homenet network to work fine >>behind a HIPNET (it will just get a prefix via PD and use it), but HIPNET >>won't be able to get much of use from a SADR implementation. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Okay, Im familiar with Bufferbloat :) whats HomeNET and HIPNET ?? and who >>sells this eRouter platform ?? I need to catch up here. >> >> >> >>Mixing and matching devices wil not work. >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>homenet mailing list >>homenet@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --=20 Dave T=E4ht Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.= html From marka@isc.org Thu Mar 14 14:09:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A146F11E821A for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:09:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s96YWMe1JuQe for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:500:60::65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74F911E8191 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2B955F9865; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:09:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1363295366; bh=DLP63mgMgKo96viqwRlHCCC9YyrkxLIJnPQLMtsIw1Y=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=DuDF5ZQH7HiMxriII0Qt2LX46Goj/eAG+ntVuDognSl1/UCwjmvvcAt2Iol1rp9Z9 ZDpNAj3a6/S1V0a7t0fKnDAzydRu53wN0ZczC/qCRD3ZCskouFy1gcy8CCn5LQ2of5 2x7y44geL5JG7WqQCrK+MxN3ZXosyV9fSyeZojlU= Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:58e0:8bff:a476:a845]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2D709216C40; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:09:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D8030DC44D; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 08:09:07 +1100 (EST) To: Michael Richardson From: Mark Andrews References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:19:09 EDT." <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 08:09:07 +1100 Message-Id: <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> Cc: Tim Chown , Michael Thomas , Don Sturek , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:09:27 -0000 In message <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca>, Michael Richardson writes: > >>>>> "Mark" =3D=3D Mark Andrews writes: > >> I'm not a namedropper, but that doesn't sound like kosher DNS to > >> me... sort of a weird split horizon. > > Mark> It is quite common for the stealth masters to exist (not > Mark> listed in the NS RRset). It is also quite common for > Mark> recursive servers to have local copies of zones that are in > Mark> use locally but not be listed in the NS RRset. The update > Mark> protocol supports forwarding of signed UPDATE requests where > Mark> the forwarding server does NOT have the shared secret. > > Mark> homenet <> CER (master) <> listed authoritative servers <> > Mark> rest of the world > > Mark> Now if you want this to work with the CER turned off while you > Mark> are away and update to the zone to work then protocol work is > Mark> needed to get multi-master working. > > I think that you are saying that there is software work, not that there is > standards work? The DNS model is a single master server. That server can be the CER or a master hosted elsewhere (ISP). Both have advantages and disadvantages. CER hosting: pro: the homenet is not dependent on anything external for local DNS resolution. con: you need the CER to always be on or else you cannot update the zone when you are travelling. ISP hosting: pro: The CER can be turned off when traveling. con: you require the local link and ISP server to be running to make changes to the zone. Now for travelling we could manually switch the server roles around. Multi-master (if defined) would do this automatically and allow for updates to the zone when partition whether that was due to a link failure or powering off of the CER due to travel. This last part requires standards work as it needs to be cross vendor. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From mike@mtcc.com Thu Mar 14 14:23:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C55911E80A5 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:23:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.520, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VRRU2-0mHUQk for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C84D11E80D7 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2ELMNLC008483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:22:24 -0700 Message-ID: <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:22:23 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2807; t=1363296144; x=1364160144; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Mark=20Andrews=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=yD+CQKi6kjTTBtLLBnQT71ydqpHRn2K1Kd3qITnJjIs=; b=WHCGBqnNXp43GACWyQjbGlIap1sQeOO1TBGUvgjnujDx/d5ml87flxjdXm uS+JzXlk2iaBviAqHCaCVGpMv8CRxIiekWsVOF1cV/pJmU3pGzRWQIji0TaS FZLsdYz57B1nuX1lChSwXrUq8EmStvw0P44IuwoXIFsh5o7neLxHw=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Michael Richardson , Tim Chown , Don Sturek , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:23:19 -0000 On 03/14/2013 02:09 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > In message <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca>, Michael Richardson writes: >>>>>>> "Mark" =3D=3D Mark Andrews writes: >> >> I'm not a namedropper, but that doesn't sound like kosher DNS to >> >> me... sort of a weird split horizon. >> >> Mark> It is quite common for the stealth masters to exist (not >> Mark> listed in the NS RRset). It is also quite common for >> Mark> recursive servers to have local copies of zones that are in >> Mark> use locally but not be listed in the NS RRset. The update >> Mark> protocol supports forwarding of signed UPDATE requests where >> Mark> the forwarding server does NOT have the shared secret. >> >> Mark> homenet <> CER (master) <> listed authoritative servers <> >> Mark> rest of the world >> >> Mark> Now if you want this to work with the CER turned off while you >> Mark> are away and update to the zone to work then protocol work is >> Mark> needed to get multi-master working. >> >> I think that you are saying that there is software work, not that there is >> standards work? > The DNS model is a single master server. That server can be the > CER or a master hosted elsewhere (ISP). Both have advantages and > disadvantages. > > CER hosting: > pro: the homenet is not dependent on anything external for local DNS resolution. > con: you need the CER to always be on or else you cannot update the zone when > you are travelling. > > ISP hosting: > pro: The CER can be turned off when traveling. > con: you require the local link and ISP server to be running to make changes > to the zone. > > Now for travelling we could manually switch the server roles around. > > Multi-master (if defined) would do this automatically and allow for > updates to the zone when partition whether that was due to a link > failure or powering off of the CER due to travel. > > This last part requires standards work as it needs to be cross vendor. > Mark, I am still confused as to whether there is anything new/unimplemented here too. If my CER, say, is the master, but my ISP runs the globally visible NS RRset on their servers, so far so good. But if we want my CER to *also* act as an authoritative server within my homenet so that, for example, it still works when my ISP link is dead, is that a problem? Of is this just some configuration voodoo that doesn't actually need standardization? I hadn't really considered it, but your post make me realize that the opposite scenario could happen as well: ie, the master is actually in the cloud somewhere, and my CER is one of its slaves which, again, would play authoritative on my homenet. Both scenarios are interesting. Mike From mike@mtcc.com Thu Mar 14 14:43:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC8821F8530 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:43:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qyxCZ7QwIsTp for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB6B21F8263 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2ELgclH015356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:42:39 -0700 Message-ID: <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:42:38 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=677; t=1363297359; x=1364161359; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Next=20steps=20for=20draft- behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Michael=20Behringer=20(mbehring)=22=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=FToS22slqPdhk0u2mQPDQ1TmMrMyx3tLDntbWHjBfBk=; b=rgi/w7lfJSqvThMzgi4rGjNSPckvkgDWgy2vGnPgm06OY9Kix24BwNjkA8 bfFmXbDTT+NpK0xTeM2IyYbvIAz6Fs0Jx+fSD709JyDwF5t9hEbC6KwGNrls XlL4Lp65IEUX4GdFEDuXjOg++vRtOPbVWqTiPwZt5rB/sKOnkul/8=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:43:39 -0000 On 03/14/2013 10:03 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >> From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mike@mtcc.com] > [...] >> In today's world access control is gated at L2 via wpa or similar. Are you >> suggesting that we have a L3 equivalent? In addition? In replacement? > We need a solution to this problem. I think this is the first important thing to note, and so far it isn't noted (or I missed it). Which solution is open for discussion. > > Can we agree thus far? Well, it seems to me that we have a solution today at L2, at least for wireless which is the most pressing need. Am I missing something? Or are talking about remote access into your homenet? Mike From simon@thekelleys.org.uk Thu Mar 14 15:14:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6DF321F8F0F for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:14:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BUNc+NVTotLt for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eyas.biff.org.uk (eyas.biff.org.uk [IPv6:2001:41c8:1:519c::20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9569A21F8F08 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cl-1441.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net ([2a01:348:6:5a0::2]:35547 helo=central.thekelleys.org.uk) by eyas.biff.org.uk with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1UGGPa-0000KP-K0; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:14:10 +0000 Received: from spike.thekelleys.org.uk ([192.168.0.193]) by central.thekelleys.org.uk with esmtpa (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1UGGPZ-0002WJ-LV; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:14:09 +0000 Message-ID: <51424B9C.4060100@thekelleys.org.uk> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:13:48 +0000 From: Simon Kelley User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20120726 Icedove/3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Thomas , homenet@ietf.org References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:14:12 -0000 On 14/03/13 21:22, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/14/2013 02:09 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: >> In message <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca>, Michael Richardson writes: >>>>>>>> "Mark" =3D=3D Mark Andrews writes: >>> >> I'm not a namedropper, but that doesn't sound like kosher DNS to >>> >> me... sort of a weird split horizon. >>> >>> Mark> It is quite common for the stealth masters to exist (not >>> Mark> listed in the NS RRset). It is also quite common for >>> Mark> recursive servers to have local copies of zones that are in >>> Mark> use locally but not be listed in the NS RRset. The update >>> Mark> protocol supports forwarding of signed UPDATE requests where >>> Mark> the forwarding server does NOT have the shared secret. >>> >>> Mark> homenet <> CER (master) <> listed authoritative servers <> >>> Mark> rest of the world >>> >>> Mark> Now if you want this to work with the CER turned off while you >>> Mark> are away and update to the zone to work then protocol work is >>> Mark> needed to get multi-master working. >>> >>> I think that you are saying that there is software work, not that >>> there is >>> standards work? >> The DNS model is a single master server. That server can be the >> CER or a master hosted elsewhere (ISP). Both have advantages and >> disadvantages. >> >> CER hosting: >> pro: the homenet is not dependent on anything external for local DNS >> resolution. >> con: you need the CER to always be on or else you cannot update the >> zone when >> you are travelling. >> >> ISP hosting: >> pro: The CER can be turned off when traveling. >> con: you require the local link and ISP server to be running to make >> changes >> to the zone. >> >> Now for travelling we could manually switch the server roles around. >> >> Multi-master (if defined) would do this automatically and allow for >> updates to the zone when partition whether that was due to a link >> failure or powering off of the CER due to travel. >> >> This last part requires standards work as it needs to be cross vendor. >> > > Mark, I am still confused as to whether there is anything new/unimplemented > here too. If my CER, say, is the master, but my ISP runs the globally > visible > NS RRset on their servers, so far so good. But if we want my CER to *also* > act as an authoritative server within my homenet so that, for example, > it still > works when my ISP link is dead, is that a problem? Of is this just some > configuration > voodoo that doesn't actually need standardization? > > I hadn't really considered it, but your post make me realize that the > opposite > scenario could happen as well: ie, the master is actually in the cloud > somewhere, > and my CER is one of its slaves which, again, would play authoritative > on my > homenet. Both scenarios are interesting. > Apologies if I keep dragging the topic from theory towards running code, but it's really worth looking at what's in dnsmasq now, since it supports all these modes using existing protocols and software. Think of dnsmasq as holding a repository of local addresses. At the moment they are derived from DHCP leases or local configuration (/etc/hosts). In the future they may come from mDNS too. Firstly, dns acts a DNS server for all the machines on the homenet. For names "out there" it's just a DNS proxy, but for local names it answers DNS queries directly. That allows local names to resolve even on a disconnected net. Secondly, it acts as an authoritative DNS server fielding queries from the wider internet for the local names, so that they can be resolved anywhere, as long the relevant domain is delegated and the ISP link is up. Thirdly, it allows slaves "in the cloud" to request zone transfers, so supporting the model where the CER is not directly delegated to, either because of worries about DoS, or because its global address in insufficiently stable. I have this function working, using a standard DynDNS.org secondary DNS account. They run BIND, as far as I know. Simon. I From cheshire@apple.com Thu Mar 14 15:24:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264C111E81A1 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:24:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5K+9fyUxBQ05 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out.apple.com (mail-out.apple.com [17.151.62.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD23211E812B for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:24:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from relay7.apple.com ([17.128.113.101]) by mail-out.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01 (7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTP id <0MJO0068Q8W8HT40@mail-out.apple.com> for homenet@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:24:09 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807165-b7fb26d00000796b-a0-51424e094c3f Received: from kencur (kencur.apple.com [17.151.62.38]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay7.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 5D.2F.31083.90E42415; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-5445.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-5445.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.84.69]) by kencur.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01 (7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Nov 17 2011)) with ESMTPSA id <0MJO00G5Q8W8QA30@kencur.apple.com> for homenet@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:24:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:24:07 -0700 Message-id: <95FEF844-0706-486F-85F7-622F79138A32@apple.com> References: <514163F2.301@mtcc.com> To: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OTZfTzynQoKdNxeL9okMsDoweS5b8 ZApgjOKySUnNySxLLdK3S+DKaPpynbXgIlvF7Js/GBsYl7B2MXJySAiYSEya+oAdwhaTuHBv PVsXIxeHkEATk8TF373sEM4+JonjvbuYQaqYBbQk1u88zgRi8woYSiy5vgWsW1jAQ+L+vZMs IDYbUM2Lz1fYQGxOARWJKX2TGUFsFgFViTen+9kg5mhLPHl3gRVijo3E5TuXweYICYRJvN3T ABTn4BAREJFonh4KcZysxM47p1kmMPLPQnLFLCRXzEIydQEj8ypGgaLUnMRKc73EgoKcVL3k /NxNjKAAayhM3cHYuNzqEKMAB6MSD++Mx46BQqyJZcWVuYcYJTiYlUR4d/0FCvGmJFZWpRbl xxeV5qQWH2KU5mBREuc1FXIKFBJITyxJzU5NLUgtgskycXBKNTCufMTT5xnf+Np0s63CF5sl IT12K5dkOuvM+ffdONIpu5w97Pyl00vyZlTfW8+6qj42y+xAT1nj7WNpcRv0c5w5Ek7wOhf3 237JOLmCv2jRlIC1SftqmY8EFUw/PkfKxWD/rhtbv/5aELWfJWJF5sc+vVNxa6s53nOdb+Y6 0n7D7/qNSe0rY9uUWIozEg21mIuKEwELGMpuLAIAAA== Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:24:50 -0000 On 13 Mar 2013, at 22:45, Michael Thomas wrote: > The problem here is that you actually believe this. You're right. I'm living in a fantasy world, where Apple shipped DNS-Based Service Discovery in August 2002, then went on make mobile telephones, tablet computers, and television set-top boxes that use it, even opened a chain of retail stores selling said products, and the Apple stock price skyrocketed from $10/share to as high as $40 or maybe even $50/share. (I could claim in my delusional fantasy world that the stock price went even higher than $50/share, but even my imagination is not that outlandish.) Of course the truth is that none of these products ever existed, and these days Apple is long forgotten, and most IETF attendees have never even heard of it. Right, Michael? Stuart Cheshire From marka@isc.org Thu Mar 14 15:27:31 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC5BB11E81A1 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:27:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ti4X7NS1-Y6S for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:500:60::65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3041B11E812B for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B5675F9946; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:27:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1363300049; bh=JejCF5ji8CQ8MGz5NhqfV2FcQ9377JVe7qeWfXBWWP4=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=q+SOGd2+ZUVmI9u1MGXV8z9vBrRW6buIG9kDNmQWv2+CcPtC7D5JUlRScxK0UXEg8 q56dJ4PzOqYPJGMrC8QNPMWoXQ3jfT/RHfHKuHaRAM+4rjQMGF78qWPRd4mPZK6D4+ V41UBkRfXGRisQxvbQjRoTAQ+27FilS1KofW1vFg= Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (c211-30-172-21.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.172.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CD89F216C40; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:27:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8339930DCC2F; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:27:06 +1100 (EST) To: Simon Kelley From: Mark Andrews References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> <51424B9C.4060100@thekelleys.org.uk> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:13:48 -0000." <51424B9C.4060100@thekelleys.org.uk> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:27:06 +1100 Message-Id: <20130314222706.8339930DCC2F@drugs.dv.isc.org> Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Michael Thomas Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:27:32 -0000 In message <51424B9C.4060100@thekelleys.org.uk>, Simon Kelley writes: > On 14/03/13 21:22, Michael Thomas wrote: > > On 03/14/2013 02:09 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > >> In message <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca>, Michael Richardson writes: > >>>>>>>> "Mark" =3D=3D Mark Andrews writes: > >>> >> I'm not a namedropper, but that doesn't sound like kosher DNS to > >>> >> me... sort of a weird split horizon. > >>> > >>> Mark> It is quite common for the stealth masters to exist (not > >>> Mark> listed in the NS RRset). It is also quite common for > >>> Mark> recursive servers to have local copies of zones that are in > >>> Mark> use locally but not be listed in the NS RRset. The update > >>> Mark> protocol supports forwarding of signed UPDATE requests where > >>> Mark> the forwarding server does NOT have the shared secret. > >>> > >>> Mark> homenet <> CER (master) <> listed authoritative servers <> > >>> Mark> rest of the world > >>> > >>> Mark> Now if you want this to work with the CER turned off while you > >>> Mark> are away and update to the zone to work then protocol work is > >>> Mark> needed to get multi-master working. > >>> > >>> I think that you are saying that there is software work, not that > >>> there is > >>> standards work? > >> The DNS model is a single master server. That server can be the > >> CER or a master hosted elsewhere (ISP). Both have advantages and > >> disadvantages. > >> > >> CER hosting: > >> pro: the homenet is not dependent on anything external for local DNS > >> resolution. > >> con: you need the CER to always be on or else you cannot update the > >> zone when > >> you are travelling. > >> > >> ISP hosting: > >> pro: The CER can be turned off when traveling. > >> con: you require the local link and ISP server to be running to make > >> changes > >> to the zone. > >> > >> Now for travelling we could manually switch the server roles around. > >> > >> Multi-master (if defined) would do this automatically and allow for > >> updates to the zone when partition whether that was due to a link > >> failure or powering off of the CER due to travel. > >> > >> This last part requires standards work as it needs to be cross vendor. > >> > > > > Mark, I am still confused as to whether there is anything new/unimplemented > > here too. If my CER, say, is the master, but my ISP runs the globally > > visible > > NS RRset on their servers, so far so good. But if we want my CER to *also* > > act as an authoritative server within my homenet so that, for example, > > it still > > works when my ISP link is dead, is that a problem? Of is this just some > > configuration > > voodoo that doesn't actually need standardization? > > > > I hadn't really considered it, but your post make me realize that the > > opposite > > scenario could happen as well: ie, the master is actually in the cloud > > somewhere, > > and my CER is one of its slaves which, again, would play authoritative > > on my > > homenet. Both scenarios are interesting. > > > > > Apologies if I keep dragging the topic from theory towards running code, > but it's really worth looking at what's in dnsmasq now, since it > supports all these modes using existing protocols and software. > > Think of dnsmasq as holding a repository of local addresses. At the > moment they are derived from DHCP leases or local configuration > (/etc/hosts). In the future they may come from mDNS too. > > Firstly, dns acts a DNS server for all the machines on the homenet. For > names "out there" it's just a DNS proxy, but for local names it answers > DNS queries directly. That allows local names to resolve even on a > disconnected net. > > Secondly, it acts as an authoritative DNS server fielding queries from > the wider internet for the local names, so that they can be resolved > anywhere, as long the relevant domain is delegated and the ISP link is up. > > Thirdly, it allows slaves "in the cloud" to request zone transfers, so > supporting the model where the CER is not directly delegated to, either > because of worries about DoS, or because its global address in > insufficiently stable. I have this function working, using a standard > DynDNS.org secondary DNS account. They run BIND, as far as I know. You are missing the point. BIND+DHCPD can do all the above too. It is the senario described as CER hosting above. I've been running that at home with BIND+DHCPD since before dnsmasq existed. What BIND, dnsmasq or any other server can't do is muti-master there is no specification on how to do it. DNSEXT punted this work over decade ago. > Simon. > > > I > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From marka@isc.org Thu Mar 14 15:36:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C95211E81B9 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:36:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.707 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.707 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vXD5SblVgHX4 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:500:60::65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63A311E81B8 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E33E5F9945; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:36:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1363300573; bh=03a2eDzmL+KmMDErf/oYojGyT4AGQTIBSmA5QmVyHHg=; h=Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=KkVxxmqWMJS3oBKcJCDnmyobLQG0YnRQv9sLxXxXauwcaJYFB3qvRmMdFqdEBpPfk pSnyLKanuTKdSaJ4RSkDj9VWj22z5edQDY7rpGm3iab9LJm0AJtmDvRsKygSBbs5bR UMUGlDC2cZk2DevOxnCvGwOyHV0JOKrSSeCnH7Ok= Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:58e0:8bff:a476:a845]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6D0AC216C3B; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:36:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1995730DCDCB; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:35:57 +1100 (EST) From: Mark Andrews References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> <51424B9C.4060100@thekelleys.org.uk> <20130314222706.8339930DCC2F@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:27:06 +1100." <20130314222706.8339930DCC2F@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:35:57 +1100 Message-Id: <20130314223557.1995730DCDCB@drugs.dv.isc.org> Cc: Simon Kelley , homenet@ietf.org, Michael Thomas Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:36:15 -0000 In message <20130314222706.8339930DCC2F@drugs.dv.isc.org>, Mark Andrews writes: > > In message <51424B9C.4060100@thekelleys.org.uk>, Simon Kelley writes: > > On 14/03/13 21:22, Michael Thomas wrote: > > > On 03/14/2013 02:09 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > >> In message <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca>, Michael Richardson writes: > > >>>>>>>> "Mark" =3D=3D Mark Andrews writes: > > >>> >> I'm not a namedropper, but that doesn't sound like kosher DNS to > > >>> >> me... sort of a weird split horizon. > > >>> > > >>> Mark> It is quite common for the stealth masters to exist (not > > >>> Mark> listed in the NS RRset). It is also quite common for > > >>> Mark> recursive servers to have local copies of zones that are in > > >>> Mark> use locally but not be listed in the NS RRset. The update > > >>> Mark> protocol supports forwarding of signed UPDATE requests where > > >>> Mark> the forwarding server does NOT have the shared secret. > > >>> > > >>> Mark> homenet <> CER (master) <> listed authoritative servers <> > > >>> Mark> rest of the world > > >>> > > >>> Mark> Now if you want this to work with the CER turned off while you > > >>> Mark> are away and update to the zone to work then protocol work is > > >>> Mark> needed to get multi-master working. > > >>> > > >>> I think that you are saying that there is software work, not that > > >>> there is > > >>> standards work? > > >> The DNS model is a single master server. That server can be the > > >> CER or a master hosted elsewhere (ISP). Both have advantages and > > >> disadvantages. > > >> > > >> CER hosting: > > >> pro: the homenet is not dependent on anything external for local DNS > > >> resolution. > > >> con: you need the CER to always be on or else you cannot update the > > >> zone when > > >> you are travelling. > > >> > > >> ISP hosting: > > >> pro: The CER can be turned off when traveling. > > >> con: you require the local link and ISP server to be running to make > > >> changes > > >> to the zone. > > >> > > >> Now for travelling we could manually switch the server roles around. > > >> > > >> Multi-master (if defined) would do this automatically and allow for > > >> updates to the zone when partition whether that was due to a link > > >> failure or powering off of the CER due to travel. > > >> > > >> This last part requires standards work as it needs to be cross vendor. > > >> > > > > > > Mark, I am still confused as to whether there is anything new/unimplemented > > > here too. If my CER, say, is the master, but my ISP runs the globally > > > visible > > > NS RRset on their servers, so far so good. But if we want my CER to *also* > > > act as an authoritative server within my homenet so that, for example, > > > it still > > > works when my ISP link is dead, is that a problem? Of is this just some > > > configuration > > > voodoo that doesn't actually need standardization? > > > > > > I hadn't really considered it, but your post make me realize that the > > > opposite > > > scenario could happen as well: ie, the master is actually in the cloud > > > somewhere, > > > and my CER is one of its slaves which, again, would play authoritative > > > on my > > > homenet. Both scenarios are interesting. > > > > > > > > > Apologies if I keep dragging the topic from theory towards running code, > > but it's really worth looking at what's in dnsmasq now, since it > > supports all these modes using existing protocols and software. > > > > Think of dnsmasq as holding a repository of local addresses. At the > > moment they are derived from DHCP leases or local configuration > > (/etc/hosts). In the future they may come from mDNS too. > > > > Firstly, dns acts a DNS server for all the machines on the homenet. For > > names "out there" it's just a DNS proxy, but for local names it answers > > DNS queries directly. That allows local names to resolve even on a > > disconnected net. > > > > Secondly, it acts as an authoritative DNS server fielding queries from > > the wider internet for the local names, so that they can be resolved > > anywhere, as long the relevant domain is delegated and the ISP link is up. > > > > Thirdly, it allows slaves "in the cloud" to request zone transfers, so > > supporting the model where the CER is not directly delegated to, either > > because of worries about DoS, or because its global address in > > insufficiently stable. I have this function working, using a standard > > DynDNS.org secondary DNS account. They run BIND, as far as I know. > > You are missing the point. BIND+DHCPD can do all the above too. > It is the senario described as CER hosting above. I've been running > that at home with BIND+DHCPD since before dnsmasq existed. > > What BIND, dnsmasq or any other server can't do is muti-master there > is no specification on how to do it. DNSEXT punted this work over > decade ago. The reason this is important to homenet and not the general enterpises is because people turn equipement off in homes when they go on holiday yet take their laptops and other equipment using names linked to the homenet with them. With enterprises these servers are always on even when everyone is on holidays and if they do turn the site fully off they are not expecting to update the zone while the site is shutdown. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From mike@mtcc.com Thu Mar 14 15:37:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B63511E81D1 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:37:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.928 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.928 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.071, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4CA1TfVDbhiH for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0FB11E81D9 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2EMbf8E001507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:37:43 -0700 Message-ID: <51425135.1080409@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:37:41 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> <51424B9C.4060100@thekelleys.org.uk> <20130314222706.8339930DCC2F@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <20130314222706.8339930DCC2F@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=849; t=1363300663; x=1364164663; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Mark=20Andrews=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=G31KX0NUUH0K01O0wcCySWONnqS0TCsh7WT+f8tq3lE=; b=ounP0rcSn0UZYUuqZ0VAO7fouv6fGhxBOyO75wVmcGNZc5n74ALwsMU1S3 VbYZ8f1TyZ9JsJQszRSrtqY3+iZam5mD9ga1sHcnv+EqfNLNp1XEz2lRStfP 7t0pnTzsnWBNbGM84J5z+QLE6+OQH2M7nqbmhfBdjf/DhcgJSE0ww=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Simon Kelley , homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:37:45 -0000 On 03/14/2013 03:27 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > You are missing the point. BIND+DHCPD can do all the above too. > It is the senario described as CER hosting above. I've been running > that at home with BIND+DHCPD since before dnsmasq existed. > > What BIND, dnsmasq or any other server can't do is muti-master there > is no specification on how to do it. DNSEXT punted this work over > decade ago. > I was pretty sure this scenario was really a configuration thing that didn't require any further protocol work, but I'm still sort of bugged by my CER answering authoritatively when it's not an authoritative server according to the root servers. Is that legitimate? Would that cause issues with, say, DNSSec? The CER is essentially spoofing my domain when you come right down to it, even if that's what I want it to do. Mike From mike@mtcc.com Thu Mar 14 15:48:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C258521F8BE0 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.237 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.237 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.362, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d3t+WmPJ8qjL for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0EF611E8133 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2EMmRHC005336 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:48:27 -0700 Message-ID: <514253BB.6060905@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:48:27 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> <51424B9C.4060100@thekelleys.org.uk> <20130314222706.8339930DCC2F@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130314223557.1995730DCDCB@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <20130314223557.1995730DCDCB@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1398; t=1363301308; x=1364165308; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Mark=20Andrews=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=23OVd8U6oDRCCQXPPBdk24xtQSQeJqQxHAwFvOJH0LA=; b=uNA2Q7YxzBLRpSHcPiegvpZjRHwpyuuanxX5HFdLAtQhxztwER/W5VO78c T6oWA7HMCrKLaZBtYAoZXw7EZtxjVg7XzX4SV9h1DUGrW08WICnZg4xo9rW/ xMFjQrUqTwa4CaStVLVJlO2NDmuqcxbv10DlXG99T02ZCF2JeDx+I=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Simon Kelley , homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:48:34 -0000 On 03/14/2013 03:35 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > The reason this is important to homenet and not the general enterpises is because people turn equipement off in homes when they go on holiday yet take their laptops and other equipment using names linked to the homenet with them. With enterprises these servers are always on even when everyone is on holidays and if they do turn the site fully off they are not expecting to update the zone while the site is shutdown. Mark It's why I'm hoping that this gets captured in the -arch document. I'm still puzzling about whether it would be better for the master to be in the cloud or in the CER though. If the cloud is the master I can throw my CER in the trashcan and not lose anything which is a nice property. It's also the cloud's job to make a pretty web site to manage all of this. I trust them far more than router vendors to make useable UI's. On the other hand, I'd worry that trying to auto-populate a cloud master would be more difficult from the access control perspective: my CER can be more liberal since it can know whether a device trying to add a name has passed access control checks on my local network, say, where the cloud master has no clue about that (or, say, if it was on a guestnet or whathaveyou). There are probably a lot more considerations too. Maybe this does beg your multi-master question? Mike From marka@isc.org Thu Mar 14 15:54:58 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CDB211E8142 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:54:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BhBum7+yKywn for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B018911E8133 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBC9C94CC; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:54:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1363301697; bh=PcdCn1kUz0vm0S5xsePSXk1BUdhPEpasQK2aFwvuesM=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=dBlaZ3uxgwhSjV2e839T3Gja6DazIcYiCx5W0QaCNNLPF2nKBPcQRFLn6zHiWiax5 Gw2PJi1cy0rwX0MjBbjcGZuvK01B8OQswlOIDiD75Y29KDvJXuJGR28rAmqxM5Y/0/ B10YgnEi5wGNgxE6UMQiB9XFRC5R6MvJLtpaYH3M= Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:54:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (c211-30-172-21.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.172.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1EC0216C3B; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:54:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F57830DCF6E; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:54:49 +1100 (EST) To: Michael Thomas From: Mark Andrews References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> <51424B9C.4060100@thekelleys.org.uk> <20130314222706.8339930DCC2F@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51425135.1080409@mtcc.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:37:41 PDT." <51425135.1080409@mtcc.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:54:49 +1100 Message-Id: <20130314225449.1F57830DCF6E@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-DCC--Metrics: post.isc.org; whitelist Cc: Simon Kelley , homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:54:58 -0000 In message <51425135.1080409@mtcc.com>, Michael Thomas writes: > On 03/14/2013 03:27 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > > You are missing the point. BIND+DHCPD can do all the above too. > > It is the senario described as CER hosting above. I've been running > > that at home with BIND+DHCPD since before dnsmasq existed. > > > > What BIND, dnsmasq or any other server can't do is muti-master there > > is no specification on how to do it. DNSEXT punted this work over > > decade ago. > > > > I was pretty sure this scenario was really a configuration thing that > didn't require any further protocol work, but I'm still sort of bugged by > my CER answering authoritatively when it's not an authoritative server > according to the root servers. Is that legitimate? Would that cause issues > with, say, DNSSec? The CER is essentially spoofing my domain when you > come right down to it, even if that's what I want it to do. Please stop using "root servers" when you mean "parent servers". They are *not* the same. The root servers are only parent servers for tld. There are authoritative servers and listed authoritative servers. The two sets are usually the same. When properly configured listed authoritative servers are a subset of authoritative servers. When you have overlapping or disjoint sets there is a configuration error. Now all authoritative servers serve the same zone content modulo zone transfer delay unless one is running a split horizon configuration. One of the usual reasons for running split horizon is to handle RFC 1918 / ULA addresses where the public version of the zone matches the private version of the zone with the RFC 1918 / ULA addresses stripped out. Doing this is straight forward with RFC 103[45] DNS. It is a little more complicated with DNSSEC. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From mike@mtcc.com Thu Mar 14 16:06:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9175611E80F7 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:06:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.322, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qj-yr5JQLXyD for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F373D21F8E00 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2EN6YfU011415 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:06:35 -0700 Message-ID: <514257FA.90307@mtcc.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:06:34 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> <51424B9C.4060100@thekelleys.org.uk> <20130314222706.8339930DCC2F@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51425135.1080409@mtcc.com> <20130314225449.1F57830DCF6E@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <20130314225449.1F57830DCF6E@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1115; t=1363302395; x=1364166395; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Mark=20Andrews=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=xVDQA6ZCQ/d1uizqWrl8qZk8fT7BaLBw8G2HuF8jtxY=; b=bzhkt7juene9rNwt4ecQMhE2SJ6TBhkbJL8nmYGV1Hgb7kC0AbdPTpM79v 6oewXfGBgiKZNqU+D4qfxe7/69izXJuQPzho8X+mR2zKfAk6PXnwTtJqvopy YbHWh5rS4AmAVGYv1R8xd4xNtO8a2Pr9zseooiGr4clSR+Tq+6hMs=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Simon Kelley , homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:06:37 -0000 On 03/14/2013 03:54 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > Please stop using "root servers" when you mean "parent servers". > They are *not* the same. The root servers are only parent servers > for tld. You're right, my bad. > > There are authoritative servers and listed authoritative servers. > The two sets are usually the same. When properly configured listed > authoritative servers are a subset of authoritative servers. When > you have overlapping or disjoint sets there is a configuration > error. > > Now all authoritative servers serve the same zone content modulo > zone transfer delay unless one is running a split horizon configuration. > One of the usual reasons for running split horizon is to handle RFC > 1918 / ULA addresses where the public version of the zone matches > the private version of the zone with the RFC 1918 / ULA addresses > stripped out. Doing this is straight forward with RFC 103[45] DNS. > It is a little more complicated with DNSSEC. > So the bottom line is that unlisted authoritative servers are ok even in the face of DNSSec. That's good news. Mike From marka@isc.org Thu Mar 14 16:19:01 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F1421F8D1B for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:19:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6SRtr8XA0PUn for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:500:60::65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833B011E80E7 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F0F65F995D; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:18:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1363303139; bh=T45ZOxE2X7Mk0lISCZqlD7qqjGpJOA+WlRjGwQ7NcME=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=ZC9P61+cpZJaq/BatRvgWAwbGNY8EXh/hgUoMOG8oDw1X+jt5PbW2I+K+klXIZHz9 ICn0O0qTO2nh/Us/4UkjmcDNWu5B187B0Q7H6uBfqwG/XOjpGTGyD3admqtXcP4YQm sKxXRxqpcHMz7Q/pm7yIjCvc9RpEGfH6TwyU6Y2I= Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (c211-30-172-21.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.172.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 818D8216C52; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:18:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6A130DD557; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:18:37 +1100 (EST) To: Michael Thomas From: Mark Andrews References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> <51424B9C.4060100@thekelleys.org.uk> <20130314222706.8339930DCC2F@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51425135.1080409@mtcc.com> <20130314225449.1F57830DCF6E@drugs.dv.isc.org> <514257FA.90307@mtcc.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:06:34 PDT." <514257FA.90307@mtcc.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:18:37 +1100 Message-Id: <20130314231838.0E6A130DD557@drugs.dv.isc.org> Cc: Simon Kelley , homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:19:01 -0000 In message <514257FA.90307@mtcc.com>, Michael Thomas writes: > On 03/14/2013 03:54 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > > Please stop using "root servers" when you mean "parent servers". > > They are *not* the same. The root servers are only parent servers > > for tld. > > You're right, my bad. > > > > > There are authoritative servers and listed authoritative servers. > > The two sets are usually the same. When properly configured listed > > authoritative servers are a subset of authoritative servers. When > > you have overlapping or disjoint sets there is a configuration > > error. > > > > Now all authoritative servers serve the same zone content modulo > > zone transfer delay unless one is running a split horizon configuration. > > One of the usual reasons for running split horizon is to handle RFC > > 1918 / ULA addresses where the public version of the zone matches > > the private version of the zone with the RFC 1918 / ULA addresses > > stripped out. Doing this is straight forward with RFC 103[45] DNS. > > It is a little more complicated with DNSSEC. > > > > So the bottom line is that unlisted authoritative servers are ok > even in the face of DNSSec. That's good news. With DNSSEC you can prove the unlisted servers are giving you good responses. The comment about difficulties with DNSSEC was with respect to split horizon. You can't just strip out records. You also need to regenerate RRSIG (as the signatures will no longer match the RRset) and potentially generate new NSEC/NSEC3 record chains when all the records at a name have been stripped out. This is not impossible to do. BIND already strips out and regenerates all the DNSSEC data with for certain configuration. Stripping out additional records would be straight forward. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From mbehring@cisco.com Thu Mar 14 17:16:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9CB11E80D9 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:16:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9F6b-NX2Gnat for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F62811E8104 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:16:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1535; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1363306582; x=1364516182; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Dl/nVs9yYPP9PKa/ArJxOp50NEbgap3AeJoq8PJfrOg=; b=FSpvwV+Eu4kr8xCxSgt06ycXBwxGRaFLmhRKJdbx/FV9L9ap0SB/BRWb 0gxaBzNJneBQiOLTZu5vPx2oh8RWmNkNaFUHUTza3tkVaNTr0vEoI9LEc FJ12GvIl0EHOq+vVO1Uoi90G9/1j4kJPAE4e8h1DQ2vr0IoAd0jc2947k Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgEFAM5mQlGtJXHB/2dsb2JhbABDxQWBZxZ0gisBAQEEOj8MBAIBCA4DAQMBAQEKFAkHMhQDBggBAQQOBQgTh3nCBI5lMQcGgllhA6dagwqCKA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,848,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="184685065" Received: from rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com ([173.37.113.193]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2013 00:16:21 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com [173.36.12.81]) by rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2F0GLlN019545 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 15 Mar 2013 00:16:21 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.51]) by xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com ([173.36.12.81]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:16:21 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Michael Thomas Thread-Topic: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? Thread-Index: Ac4gyjI7rRa09jDESjm4TcI0Yw8B/QAKw4sAAAgh9XAABD5UAAAFX0EA Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 00:16:20 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE46B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.103.73] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Tim Chown , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 00:16:23 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mike@mtcc.com] > Sent: 14 March 2013 17:43 > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) > Cc: Tim Chown; homenet@ietf.org Group > Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust- > bootstrap? >=20 > On 03/14/2013 10:03 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: > >> From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mike@mtcc.com] > > [...] > >> In today's world access control is gated at L2 via wpa or similar. > >> Are you suggesting that we have a L3 equivalent? In addition? In > replacement? > > We need a solution to this problem. I think this is the first important= thing > to note, and so far it isn't noted (or I missed it). Which solution is op= en for > discussion. > > > > Can we agree thus far? >=20 > Well, it seems to me that we have a solution today at L2, at least for > wireless which is the most pressing need. Am I missing something? Or are > talking about remote access into your homenet? No, it's not primarily for remote access.=20 Even if we have something, the architecture doc should describe that this i= s an issue and needs to be addressed, and which solutions fit (including ex= isting).=20 But I think the need goes beyond wireless. If I have visitors, I may not li= ke it if they plug in a device into the Ethernet socket in the guest room, = and the device has full access to everything. I think we need a simple way = to accept/deny a new device onto the network, independent of the media type= .=20 Michael From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Fri Mar 15 01:09:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00B421F8D02 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:09:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.861 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.861 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03OQ03iyv5iI for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x229.google.com (mail-wg0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C746921F8CFB for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id ds1so288890wgb.2 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:09:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent :mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OswOocGy02tzNlYWFKKsAJ0XrLbdKnnKUfo99vmegZI=; b=m027lTl82vZUaz0BHcgcu1/mzFDtGdKEcZZjJDh+F8WiL4EjiyRGJ015emHMSRbg42 nMZeEbgH34J6uloqBLqWbbWQVPMXSRkLNgSlborBjUDMx8MTbCTHX5ProyO097hqCBX+ Oh7WI5C0M6okCWkJZrYCa1lTaHnMBFRfwvmTliMVz46SNkcDjn5P1HatVGNRGhPzc78/ Kt6SzdlAp5JUH9JyjAY6+9fNXWvMqcYLmqi6QbwLu4NbOJQtIms9i/s7p15gq8L8lr/d sO/GpW8AqjlIa9YTxxT05wxNjOx6I0YNNg+M5IkkzILfzgiscwJwmNwRpgtEpxdLE1r8 fcmQ== X-Received: by 10.180.37.146 with SMTP id y18mr1213991wij.10.1363334954387; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-101-188-133.as13285.net. [2.101.188.133]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q13sm1705027wie.0.2013.03.15.01.09.12 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5142D736.1090008@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 08:09:26 +0000 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE46B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE46B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tim Chown , Michael Thomas , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 08:09:16 -0000 On 15/03/2013 00:16, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mike@mtcc.com] >> Sent: 14 March 2013 17:43 >> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) >> Cc: Tim Chown; homenet@ietf.org Group >> Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust- >> bootstrap? >> >> On 03/14/2013 10:03 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >>>> From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mike@mtcc.com] >>> [...] >>>> In today's world access control is gated at L2 via wpa or similar. >>>> Are you suggesting that we have a L3 equivalent? In addition? In >> replacement? >>> We need a solution to this problem. I think this is the first important thing >> to note, and so far it isn't noted (or I missed it). Which solution is open for >> discussion. >>> Can we agree thus far? >> Well, it seems to me that we have a solution today at L2, at least for >> wireless which is the most pressing need. Am I missing something? Or are >> talking about remote access into your homenet? > > No, it's not primarily for remote access. > > Even if we have something, the architecture doc should describe that this is an issue and needs to be addressed, and which solutions fit (including existing). > > But I think the need goes beyond wireless. If I have visitors, I may not like it if they plug in a device into the Ethernet socket in the guest room, and the device has full access to everything. I think we need a simple way to accept/deny a new device onto the network, independent of the media type. And preferably a method that doesn't involve asking your visitor for her MAC address, or giving her a password that you don't want to leak. On the other hand, a Bluetooth-like method that involves opening access for a few minutes while you automatically register the MAC address might be good enough for home use (but unacceptable for professional use). What is unlikely to work in the real world is a complex cryptographically sound mechanism, even though it might be fun to design and debug. Brian From robert.cragie@gridmerge.com Fri Mar 15 04:04:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60F721F8D26 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:04:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7LcnkfGjP-fr for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail41.extendcp.co.uk (mail41.extendcp.co.uk [79.170.44.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 219FD21F8D0A for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host86-151-9-162.range86-151.btcentralplus.com ([86.151.9.162] helo=[192.168.0.2]) by mail41.extendcp.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80.1) id 1UGSQy-0007yA-LQ for homenet@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:04:24 +0000 Message-ID: <51430047.2020005@gridmerge.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:04:39 +0000 From: Robert Cragie Organization: Gridmerge Ltd. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050008020704060908000402" X-Authenticated-As: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:04:28 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050008020704060908000402 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14/03/2013 9:42 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/14/2013 10:03 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >>> From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mike@mtcc.com] >> [...] >>> In today's world access control is gated at L2 via wpa or similar.=20 >>> Are you >>> suggesting that we have a L3 equivalent? In addition? In replacement?= >> We need a solution to this problem. I think this is the first=20 >> important thing to note, and so far it isn't noted (or I missed it).=20 >> Which solution is open for discussion. >> >> Can we agree thus far? > > Well, it seems to me that we have a solution today at L2, at > least for wireless which is the most pressing need. Am I missing > something? Or are talking about remote access into your homenet? L2 access is fine if the authenticator is one hop away. It won't work=20 otherwise. We had this issue with mesh networks using RPL where=20 authentication needs to be relayed through the existing network to the=20 authenticator and access control is performed by RPL routers on the=20 boundary of the network. We solved it using the PANA relay function (RFC = 6345). I also have some ideas for more complex network admission using=20 multiple authenticators in a mesh network which could apply here. I will = try and get the ideas down in a digestible form. 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([173.37.183.84]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 06:12:19 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Brian E Carpenter Thread-Topic: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? Thread-Index: Ac4gyjI7rRa09jDESjm4TcI0Yw8B/QAKw4sAAAgh9XAABD5UAAAFX0EAABCExgAABCjSwA== Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:12:19 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE603@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE46B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142D736.1090008@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5142D736.1090008@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.103.73] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Tim Chown , Michael Thomas , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:12:21 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBCcmlhbiBFIENhcnBlbnRlciBb bWFpbHRvOmJyaWFuLmUuY2FycGVudGVyQGdtYWlsLmNvbV0NClsuLi5dDQo+ID4gQnV0IEkgdGhp bmsgdGhlIG5lZWQgZ29lcyBiZXlvbmQgd2lyZWxlc3MuIElmIEkgaGF2ZSB2aXNpdG9ycywgSSBt YXkgbm90IGxpa2UNCj4gaXQgaWYgdGhleSBwbHVnIGluIGEgZGV2aWNlIGludG8gdGhlIEV0aGVy bmV0IHNvY2tldCBpbiB0aGUgZ3Vlc3Qgcm9vbSwgYW5kIHRoZQ0KPiBkZXZpY2UgaGFzIGZ1bGwg YWNjZXNzIHRvIGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcuIEkgdGhpbmsgd2UgbmVlZCBhIHNpbXBsZSB3YXkgdG8NCj4g YWNjZXB0L2RlbnkgYSBuZXcgZGV2aWNlIG9udG8gdGhlIG5ldHdvcmssIGluZGVwZW5kZW50IG9m IHRoZSBtZWRpYQ0KPiB0eXBlLg0KPiANCj4gQW5kIHByZWZlcmFibHkgYSBtZXRob2QgdGhhdCBk b2Vzbid0IGludm9sdmUgYXNraW5nIHlvdXIgdmlzaXRvciBmb3IgaGVyDQo+IE1BQyBhZGRyZXNz LCBvciBnaXZpbmcgaGVyIGEgcGFzc3dvcmQgdGhhdCB5b3UgZG9uJ3Qgd2FudCB0byBsZWFrLg0K PiANCj4gT24gdGhlIG90aGVyIGhhbmQsIGEgQmx1ZXRvb3RoLWxpa2UgbWV0aG9kIHRoYXQgaW52 b2x2ZXMgb3BlbmluZyBhY2Nlc3MNCj4gZm9yIGEgZmV3IG1pbnV0ZXMgd2hpbGUgeW91IGF1dG9t YXRpY2FsbHkgcmVnaXN0ZXIgdGhlIE1BQyBhZGRyZXNzIG1pZ2h0DQo+IGJlIGdvb2QgZW5vdWdo IGZvciBob21lIHVzZSAoYnV0IHVuYWNjZXB0YWJsZSBmb3IgcHJvZmVzc2lvbmFsIHVzZSkuDQo+ IA0KPiBXaGF0IGlzIHVubGlrZWx5IHRvIHdvcmsgaW4gdGhlIHJlYWwgd29ybGQgaXMgYSBjb21w bGV4IGNyeXB0b2dyYXBoaWNhbGx5DQo+IHNvdW5kIG1lY2hhbmlzbSwgZXZlbiB0aG91Z2ggaXQg bWlnaHQgYmUgZnVuIHRvIGRlc2lnbiBhbmQgZGVidWcuDQo+IA0KPiAgICAgQnJpYW4NCg0KQmVm b3JlIHdlIGRpdmUgaW50byB0aGUgc29sdXRpb24gc3BhY2UsIEJyaWFuLCBkbyB5b3UgYWdyZWUg dGhhdCB0aGUgZnJhbWV3b3JrIGRyYWZ0IHNob3VsZCBpbmNsdWRlIHRoaXMgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnQ/ IA0KDQpNaWNoYWVsDQoNCg== From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Fri Mar 15 04:48:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9979621F9159 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:48:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.263 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.263 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.428, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mptmHnwqcIML for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-f48.google.com (mail-wg0-f48.google.com [74.125.82.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D8521F915B for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 16so2983812wgi.27 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:48:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent :mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cXTQ1sK0JIXKQZor68Lmi0SHwnCRm7hbqjVVD7Tlpw0=; b=Mjsrl0Ny6u4pSe45bhldJQe6VytYh1xfouWkdylv9rBso437G1AhgiT/5SCdp4Kdpi lf0zXDYDjw52d/CiEN3wN5RwAm2ZzkoObl56aHhHFlAGqXGtqpY4XQg+99/n1Go7IWrq 49AlF/TW6a+JgSlo1yNKrY7DY4jHMlNQmvLj9zBCZ+3B2dsQQ5omqXWw955AlHmn8bds t+vMz/afLlg6PBAAfsLMAs6xNxTIXVtncq+8wsQryxnQpNKiiTFrY+nWjXMauCKKYHJO a8cTc+JvC0jRKg95sL5s40Q3TJbfnQDC2r1H1o/zoS8bpMsNBJCaXT6l+ahXFhmECVE5 q8hg== X-Received: by 10.180.8.4 with SMTP id n4mr2332688wia.13.1363348111238; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-101-188-133.as13285.net. [2.101.188.133]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dm9sm2343652wib.3.2013.03.15.04.48.29 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51430A9A.7070005@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:48:42 +0000 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE46B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142D736.1090008@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE603@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE603@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tim Chown , Michael Thomas , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:48:33 -0000 On 15/03/2013 11:12, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > [...] >>> But I think the need goes beyond wireless. If I have visitors, I may not like >> it if they plug in a device into the Ethernet socket in the guest room, and the >> device has full access to everything. I think we need a simple way to >> accept/deny a new device onto the network, independent of the media >> type. >> >> And preferably a method that doesn't involve asking your visitor for her >> MAC address, or giving her a password that you don't want to leak. >> >> On the other hand, a Bluetooth-like method that involves opening access >> for a few minutes while you automatically register the MAC address might >> be good enough for home use (but unacceptable for professional use). >> >> What is unlikely to work in the real world is a complex cryptographically >> sound mechanism, even though it might be fun to design and debug. >> >> Brian > > Before we dive into the solution space, Brian, do you agree that the framework draft should include this requirement? Yes, but I think that simplicity of deployment and management is part of the requirement. Brian From mbehring@cisco.com Fri Mar 15 04:50:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCA621F8718 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:50:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lLVFxhp185H4 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701D121F8712 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 04:50:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=403; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1363348254; x=1364557854; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=o+FGXd2HT+A8/hRyHRWSp2IZDN7DJrKga7PEAjVACqs=; b=c1VSLUnR/plVdGrlRQoviGjTFDIlHIewi8sQzQg62NeV9sAxjI75jA0p 6AVfaT3xXgqKeMpEw6ntKbBEp6o9cpSvSN+zqdRi30M07WB8ukKOe8FOI +Aqz4lfuUejiUKwssuG5ebfabq0r/R60KgxBjhvDQNu7HuXuHUVY6bxLg I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgUFAGcJQ1GtJV2a/2dsb2JhbABDh269IoFrFnSCKgEBAQQ6PwwEAgEIFQ0UCQcyFBECBA4FCBOHecI/jmQxB4JfYQOnXIMKgig X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,850,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="184848910" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Mar 2013 11:50:53 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com [173.36.12.80]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2FBoqqR010580 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:50:52 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.51]) by xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com ([173.36.12.80]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 06:50:52 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Brian E Carpenter Thread-Topic: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? Thread-Index: AQHOIXMKlAxt6VvGMU+IhVZYUD4LIZimo6BA Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:50:52 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE696@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE46B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142D736.1090008@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE603@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <51430A9A.7070005@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51430A9A.7070005@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.103.73] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Tim Chown , Michael Thomas , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:50:55 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: homenet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter [....] > > Before we dive into the solution space, Brian, do you agree that the > framework draft should include this requirement? >=20 > Yes, but I think that simplicity of deployment and management is part of = the > requirement. Absolutely agree! Michael From mcr@sandelman.ca Fri Mar 15 07:10:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF62F21F86C1 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:10:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.288 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.288 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tw2W0BkzAruH for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7946A21F86B6 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [98.79.94.25]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AF4C22060; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:10:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sandelman.ca (quigon.sandelman.ca [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD596CA0C7; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:10:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" In-reply-to: <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> Comments: In-reply-to Mark Andrews message dated "Fri, 15 Mar 2013 08:09:07 +1100." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) Content-ID: <11464.1363356491.1@sandelman.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:10:33 -0400 Message-ID: <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:10:41 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Mark" =3D=3D Mark Andrews writes: Mark> It is quite common for the stealth masters to exist (not Mark> listed in the NS RRset). It is also quite common for Mark> recursive servers to have local copies of zones that are in Mark> use locally but not be listed in the NS RRset. The update Mark> Now if you want this to work with the CER turned off while you Mark> are away and update to the zone to work then protocol work is Mark> needed to get multi-master working. mcr> I think that you are saying that there is software work, not that mcr> there is standards work? ... Mark> Multi-master (if defined) would do this automatically and Mark> allow for updates to the zone when partition whether that was Mark> due to a link failure or powering off of the CER due to Mark> travel. Mark> This last part requires standards work as it needs to be cross Mark> vendor. Okay, so there would be standards work to do multi-master. I thought so, but I wasn't clear.=20=20=20=20 Are there any multi-master implementations using proprietary protocols? I think that multi-master isn't that important for homenet.=20=20 I think that having a stealth master for the reverse ZONE should be a MUST. Homenet and code point of view, the important requirement would actually be: CER MUST be able to be authoritative name server for at least one reverse (ip6.arpa) zone, and at least one forward zone. CER SHOULD support zone transfers to a secondary server, which SHOULD be configurable manually, and SHOULD be configurable by some TBD DHCPv6 option.=20 CER SHOULD permit NS records for zones to be configured manually, and via DHCPv6 option, and SHOULD support=20 situation where no NS record points at CER itself. Mark the other part is the update-reverse-zone-by-TCP DNS update, authorized by TCP. You've talked about this. Do you think we need a dnsext action to permit this, or any kind of document outside of homenet? =2D-=20 Michael Richardson =2Don the road- =09=20=20=20=20=09=20=20=20=20=09=20=20=20=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAABAgAGBQJRQyvZAAoJEKD0KQ7Gj3P24lYH/1rVBuuy7uVLMgZfnME79BOD xc9+N1GI3dmQTh0gR3q00ZKugz4hNdpEctcjT9NW1skAWfIFZX2Sy1AMhdrXr6Nq 9whcH8suui2UEgwNMpIXtHS87VCb2KQ6Joo6/D7hPfZw0uGkEMoCK6ff+ER8KZfn 4QRFn6VZystR2ctKJp01VqL2WLdNsvByonYYlcxL2K3vW4QswWsg5G34ECvoe1L0 ZwLa5ffAFYYwTm2GCJlFekiAlVUdckAq4Ff2DucqcpeACKWpogIl8xdPaDRBFSRg maMl4FAtCCXc1r398aNnytBlJuNFAbAOR1UdLvEmTjL+ADdYpkLTabfPZGzFQSc= =SUXz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Fri Mar 15 07:23:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4112021F84E3 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:23:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.288 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.288 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hBAOaEVhUIWt for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2160021F84DF for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [98.79.94.25]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 758EA22060 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:23:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sandelman.ca (quigon.sandelman.ca [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3331BCA0C7 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:23:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" In-reply-to: <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> Comments: In-reply-to Michael Thomas message dated "Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:22:23 -0700." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:23:40 -0400 Message-ID: <12665.1363357420@sandelman.ca> Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:23:51 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Michael" =3D=3D Michael Thomas writes: Michael> Mark, I am still confused as to whether there is anything Michael> new/unimplemented here too. If my CER, say, is the master, probably not, but not every piece of code out there supports the particular characteristic. I've seen lots of web-based DNS interfaces that did not let you enter arbitrary NS records, lest you make a mistake. So, homenet wants a particular configuration, and we need to write it down. We also need to provide for signaling from the ISP as to what they expect. I think that there are four situations, and ideally, I'd like eliminate at least two: 1) home user has no FQDN, and ISP provides none. There is no forward zone, and there are no "remote" updates. It doesn't matter where the listed dns server is. The home user can turn off CER as they like. 2) HOME user has own FQDN and uses it. I think that the ISP may offer secondary service for the zone, or not, it would be nice to signal this in DHCPv6 somehow, but if we fail, that's okay. Listed server likely should be CER, but generally user might be sophisticated and override it. (note that this also might apply to marksandrews-home.isc.org, or dawsonavenue.sandelman.ca zones, where the (virtual) corporation has decided to extend their zone into the SOHO, so it might not be just ultra-geeks. Home user can not turn off CER if they want roaming updates. 3) ISP provides blah-blah-blah.isp.example.net for home user, and user has no travel cares. I think that in this situation the CER should be a stealth primary. The ISP's DNS servers shoud be listed. Home user can turn off CER, because they have no cares about forward names. I put the authoritative server at CER because it makes it easier and I think more reliable, to update names. 4) ISP provides premium-premium-premium.isp.example.net for home user, and user has travel desires.=20 In this case, it might make sense for the authoritative server to be at the ISP, and for the CER to update it only using DNS-updates. Home user can turn off CER. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson =2Don the road- =20=20=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAABAgAGBQJRQy7rAAoJEKD0KQ7Gj3P2kCoH/3rpcBWrCg80aWvyBbLEW4tQ eLyH4QYNy7Gj+2zw+970h5AV8vfq84H2lx4AXh/hZqOrtcLtZ6t0V4Gc3+7rYYgy sUSzpe1GZDmKSvm0pIZPhf7fwjJunEz/5/wHqG6NRjgofaLuRCYuzcnE6ahB2p1G KPm1Ay+zT/Vcrm6jUllMVAc87SASY4eAeCNnGhKHZe3AaueIPSvd+0ACWuP6wYhF MnpwoqhVsO6uBvdwij26dTYfDfIovRzr/jMiC+w+0tLvGpU0zbt2qEZQxCBFDRyE q6pAt66QnFa6hc+6QGGupIIiMm5etTaGDhtw1K9kO895Jlgxx1bmHAUrzu3lIXk= =7F/N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Fri Mar 15 07:49:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E46221F87D1 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:49:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z40npfwiMl6n for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [69.241.43.119]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F148621F87BB for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.116]) by pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 97wm3m1.46489630; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:47:23 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXMB06.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.8.206]) by pacdcexhub03.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::5527:6d6b:29a7:f414%13]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:48:45 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Simon Kelley , "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough Thread-Index: AQHOIHPXiA1ZUNu/H0mh9lZMTqTD5Zild86AgAFfr4A= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:48:44 +0000 Message-ID: <10229F86C86EB444898E629583FD41717261015D@PACDCEXMB06.cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: <5141D58B.7030506@thekelleys.org.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.4.120824 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.70] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:49:12 -0000 On 3/14/13 9:50 AM, "Simon Kelley" wrote: >Lots of homenet-type >installations will have it set to ".lan" or something similar. Some will >set it to ".local" only to discover that the .local TLD has been >usurped.=20 With the new gTLDs this is certainly a concern. Definitely don't use .home since there are many applicants. However, .local is reserved by ICANN so it cannot in my understanding become a new gTLD per the gTLD guidebook, section 2.2.1.2.1 "Reserved Names" (page 60 of the guidebook @ http://newgtlds.icann.org/en/applicants/agb/guidebook-full-04jun12-en.pdf). This may not be the point you were making but I thought there may be concern over namespace overlap. :-) - Jason From jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com Fri Mar 15 10:01:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A325421F8775 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:01:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wzHff1vi3of7 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable.comcast.com (pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com [69.241.43.119]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5160C21F8554 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([24.40.56.115]) by pacdcavout01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id 97wm3m1.46512592; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:59:18 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXHUB04.cable.comcast.com (24.40.56.121) by PACDCEXHUB02.cable.comcast.com (24.40.56.115) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.318.1; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:00:57 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXMB06.cable.comcast.com ([169.254.8.206]) by pacdcexhub04.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::1532:d330:f9a5:c8a1%18]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.001; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:00:56 -0400 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Simon Kelley , "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough Thread-Index: AQHOIHPXiA1ZUNu/H0mh9lZMTqTD5Zild86AgAFfr4CAACTxAA== Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:00:55 +0000 Message-ID: <10229F86C86EB444898E629583FD417172616E7A@PACDCEXMB06.cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: <10229F86C86EB444898E629583FD41717261015D@PACDCEXMB06.cable.comcast.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.4.120824 x-originating-ip: [24.40.55.70] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <83B0C13EB91F4341BB8BA11B88174142@cable.comcast.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [homenet] Wide Area DNS-Based Service Discovery walkthrough X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:01:02 -0000 On 3/15/13 10:48 AM, "Livingood, Jason" wrote: >With the new gTLDs this is certainly a concern. Definitely don't use .home >since there are many applicants. However, .local is reserved by ICANN so >it cannot in my understanding become a new gTLD per the gTLD guidebook, >section 2.2.1.2.1 "Reserved Names" (page 60 of the guidebook @ >http://newgtlds.icann.org/en/applicants/agb/guidebook-full-04jun12-en.pdf) >. > This may not be the point you were making but I thought there may be >concern over namespace overlap. :-) On a related note, for reference, please see the ICANN SSAC doc released today -- SAC057: SSAC Advisory on Internal Name Certificates -- at http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-057-en.pdf. Jason=20 From mike@mtcc.com Fri Mar 15 11:44:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C1921F85DC for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:44:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.290, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tS188vlvOTyp for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEA221F875A for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2FIiblw031270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:44:40 -0700 Message-ID: <51436C15.8010005@mtcc.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:44:37 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> <12665.1363357420@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <12665.1363357420@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4425; t=1363373080; x=1364237080; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20homenet@ietf.org |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=TCQkCFXEcksbK6fJ9UEnJ+sdcSIA+/DuuT10K0KWqdg=; b=N8xn88PaSHOrXwt55VVm3KU8Ak0Me1WVJ0lLRGny71T9vttUs+PQwJxWoX p9CwzbZmlKfRyP5hTtPwdVBPuWGWlTsEcMZgYMeXOs66zbirmg2BdJc1MIxd mQIvz4wQnP6HGNIEOueL8ANpRj+yBPU9S3BGGXoFA5LjuKMWpt55A=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 18:44:45 -0000 On 03/15/2013 07:23 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Michael> Mark, I am still confused as to whether there is anything > Michael> new/unimplemented here too. If my CER, say, is the master, > > probably not, but not every piece of code out there supports the > particular characteristic. I've seen lots of web-based DNS interfaces > that did not let you enter arbitrary NS records, lest you make a > mistake. I meant protocol-wise. I don't think there's any protocols that need to be defined/tweaked. > > So, homenet wants a particular configuration, and we need to write it > down. We also need to provide for signaling from the ISP as to what > they expect. > I think that there are four situations, and ideally, I'd like eliminate > at least two: Can we not use "ISP"? There's no reason why it needs to be. Maybe DNS Service Provider (DSP) or something more neutral? > > 1) home user has no FQDN, and ISP provides none. > There is no forward zone, and there are no "remote" updates. > It doesn't matter where the listed dns server is. > The home user can turn off CER as they like. > > 2) HOME user has own FQDN and uses it. > I think that the ISP may offer secondary service for the zone, > or not, it would be nice to signal this in DHCPv6 somehow, but > if we fail, that's okay. > Listed server likely should be CER, but generally user might be > sophisticated and override it. > (note that this also might apply to marksandrews-home.isc.org, > or dawsonavenue.sandelman.ca zones, where the (virtual) corporation > has decided to extend their zone into the SOHO, so it might not be > just ultra-geeks. > Home user can not turn off CER if they want roaming updates. > > 3) ISP provides blah-blah-blah.isp.example.net for home user, > and user has no travel cares. > I think that in this situation the CER should be a stealth > primary. The ISP's DNS servers shoud be listed. > Home user can turn off CER, because they have no cares > about forward names. > I put the authoritative server at CER because it makes it > easier and I think more reliable, to update names. The downside here is if my CER dies or is replaced. But that may not be enough of a downside. Perhaps we could even finagle this because assuming that the DSP doesn't simultaneously die, we could always do a zone transfer from it to repopulate the master's zone. I'm not sure whether a slave would allow a master to do a zone transfer, but that seems more like configuration than protocol? > > 4) ISP provides premium-premium-premium.isp.example.net for > home user, and user has travel desires. > In this case, it might make sense for the authoritative > server to be at the ISP, and for the CER to update it > only using DNS-updates. > Home user can turn off CER. > > I'd venture to say that the requirement ought to be that my homenet devices MUST be able to automatically (= no human intervention) be able to add/change RR's in my domain within some policies. I find it a little more plausible that there is a single point of contact between my repository (eg, the CER) and the DSP from an auth/authz standpoint. That is: [mike's-toothbrush]------ixfr----->[mike's cer]--------[i]xfr------>[dns service provider] seems more tractable than: [mike's-toothbrush]-----ixfr------>[dns provider]-----[i]xfr------->[mike's cer] As far as the difference between #3 & #4, it seems to be whether you plan to travel or not? I think we should always expect that CER might be down for some protracted amount of time, if nothing else due to connectivity problems. I'm not sure why you label #4 as "premium"? It seems to be the same service as #3. In Mark's parlance if I've got it right, CER would be an unlisted authoritative server which is a master to DSP's listed authoritative servers who are slaves to CER for my domain. I think #2 folds into this too, because even your own vanity domain needs a secondary NS record, so the DSP could pretty easily perform both of those roles; it's up to the DSP whether they want to do that from a biz perspective tho. So maybe 2, 3, and 4 can really be combined assuming we tease out the nuances? (maybe from a doc standpoint it would be better to enumerate them so it's more obvious). Mike From mike@mtcc.com Fri Mar 15 11:49:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A361A21F86CE for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:49:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.335 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.335 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.264, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lZ5LqBjuBjl1 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A20C421F86C4 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2FIncCq000589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:49:39 -0700 Message-ID: <51436D42.9070900@mtcc.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:49:38 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> <51430047.2020005@gridmerge.com> In-Reply-To: <51430047.2020005@gridmerge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1452; t=1363373379; x=1364237379; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Next=20steps=20for=20draft- behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? |Sender:=20 |To:=20robert.cragie@gridmerge.com |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=MD3u/l4CbxER9Eowc9s2PDiYuWEij0Ut/+njKywxnOA=; b=WDxGArLoWpichItem7OgmQhPqW5hxZnf3sdcsapcbcDvp6oMwjUVvfLxhn gs02rC6klBo/aPRQtNUkN1+Nq+d1Y0EQF5nX52RXVKNZdATtU10DIM6lYMZq R8dodonVeQvLa/wEEKAdcoCrO00RmGiu08dHdY91pdP5P9OEkfIgk=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 18:49:48 -0000 On 03/15/2013 04:04 AM, Robert Cragie wrote: > > On 14/03/2013 9:42 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> On 03/14/2013 10:03 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >>>> From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mike@mtcc.com] >>> [...] >>>> In today's world access control is gated at L2 via wpa or similar. Are you >>>> suggesting that we have a L3 equivalent? In addition? In replacement? >>> We need a solution to this problem. I think this is the first important thing to note, and so far it isn't noted (or I missed it). Which solution is open for discussion. >>> >>> Can we agree thus far? >> >> Well, it seems to me that we have a solution today at L2, at >> least for wireless which is the most pressing need. Am I missing >> something? Or are talking about remote access into your homenet? > L2 access is fine if the authenticator is one hop away. It won't work otherwise. We had this issue with mesh networks using RPL where authentication needs to be relayed through the existing network to the authenticator and access control is performed by RPL routers on the boundary of the network. We solved it using the PANA relay function (RFC 6345). I also have some ideas for more complex network admission using multiple authenticators in a mesh network which could apply here. I will try and get the ideas down in a digestible form. So I guess where this is going is "should AAA be a part of the homenet architecture". Yes? (fsvo: AAA). Mike From mike@mtcc.com Fri Mar 15 12:05:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C1C21F86AE for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:05:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.357 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.357 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.242, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aFYoYjPcTRUc for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E681A21F8688 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2FJ5WWq006361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:05:33 -0700 Message-ID: <514370FC.60801@mtcc.com> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:05:32 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1503; t=1363374333; x=1364238333; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Michael=20Richardson=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=MohfCnfDlZLeuNZkMS7FmisNUCi4cW82lf9eTisoXhc=; b=PDTnjQgoKfDVaWcUWCpyvS1cDIMAOqMUgVJ6hy9J+Yovce8nceFrx9ydES BNfN/hn9bmTppYe6iRXjlOAYA9eZ8bKqgetgLeC4l/Pl5E793XUvdHLO/lRy dhDBlNdQsdZ0T8V33IaFhnnL2sxg50E3Q/F7vaZ/5uyuZMMcvkyQQ=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 19:05:35 -0000 On 03/15/2013 07:10 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Okay, so there would be standards work to do multi-master. > I thought so, but I wasn't clear. > Are there any multi-master implementations using proprietary protocols? > > I think that multi-master isn't that important for homenet. > I think that having a stealth master for the reverse ZONE should be a MUST. > Homenet and code point of view, the important requirement would actually be: > CER MUST be able to be authoritative name server for > at least one reverse (ip6.arpa) zone, and at least one > forward zone. > CER SHOULD support zone transfers to a secondary server, > which SHOULD be configurable manually, and SHOULD be > configurable by some TBD DHCPv6 option. I'm confused, is the DHCPv6 part connected in any way to the zone transfer part? I thought the DHCP part that Simon was talking about was to auto-populate the (master's) zone via an existing dhcp option (and he's doing it via DHCPv4, not v6). I don't understand where DHCP comes in with the ability to do a zone transfer to a slave. > CER SHOULD permit NS records for zones to be configured > manually, and via DHCPv6 option, and SHOULD support > situation where no NS record points at CER itself. Are you saying that the CER would use the ISP's DHCP to get the addresses of the authoritative slave servers? What if my ISP isn't my DSP? I think we need to be careful with any such assumption. Mike From marka@isc.org Fri Mar 15 13:48:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6625021F8901 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:48:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8pqDjYIiCcPn for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A988B21F88F0 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04C5C94CD; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 20:48:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1363380508; bh=F/rIcLj7AhCcGyJM6pmJcK4Bh6rth1aq3p+pTjecRVs=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=T7r3zIKalJnTrwg18hmpfD71WiI/H0I9UcNzv/4bbi7lzKuIouDIdhKcCbBonZ85M VeBvWPiyuVi1rkZD0yZtIPkLH7YTZLNsVKbTVY5TBUOWCAkAbfPKyMmKs/HSynmxLD g0lAVwCVtxN4kNm88+elMVtgU+HCa7rD2ZRMuGh8= Received: from bikeshed.isc.org (bikeshed.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:d::19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.isc.org", Issuer "RapidSSL CA" (not verified)) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 20:48:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (c211-30-172-21.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.172.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by bikeshed.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B45D0216C3B; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 20:48:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0016430EDA50; Sat, 16 Mar 2013 07:48:13 +1100 (EST) To: Michael Richardson From: Mark Andrews References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:10:33 EDT." <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 07:48:13 +1100 Message-Id: <20130315204814.0016430EDA50@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-DCC--Metrics: post.isc.org; whitelist Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 20:48:29 -0000 In message <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca>, Michael Richardson writes: > Mark the other part is the update-reverse-zone-by-TCP DNS update, > authorized by TCP. You've talked about this. Do you think we need a > dnsext action to permit this, or any kind of document outside of > homenet? Given the I implemented this years ago in BIND and that you can do unauthenticated updates over TCP the answer would be no. That said putting this in a BCP is another matter entirely. Dynamic updates to the reverse zones SHOULD be done homenet equipement. It SHOULD be possible to configure a TSIG keys (plural) to authenticate dynamic updates of reverse zones. TSIG keys should be used to authenticate the update if configured. If TSIG keys are not configured the update SHOULD be performed over TCP not UDP. This is to permit the server to use the TCP connection as a weak authentication mechanism. The update code should check for the presence of CNAME and DNAME records at the well know reverse names and adjust the update requests to update the target names of the CNAME / DNAME records. This allows for RFC 2317 style delegations to work. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From acee.lindem@ericsson.com Fri Mar 15 15:14:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81DA911E80D1 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:14:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RKlgC+aDtW8N for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC36411E80A5 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:14:10 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-b7faf6d00000096b-81-51439d31b2b9 Received: from EUSAAHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.96]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E2.99.02411.23D93415; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:14:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB101.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.118]) by EUSAAHC008.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.96]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Fri, 15 Mar 2013 18:14:09 -0400 From: Acee Lindem To: Tim Chown Thread-Topic: [homenet] New Version Notification for draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHOIDd64z80v7Fj10isXCa0IcvoC5inl3GA Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:14:08 +0000 Message-ID: <94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE470F9002@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> References: <43238C9F8B23DA44B42A78D0129283E017FC9051@EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com> <1DB0FF39-44E7-4ABF-AF75-800067D17884@ecs.soton.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <4009E0E4F2B75C4ABDC6C5BC503E8ABE@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPgq7RXOdAg7M75C3eLzrEYnFoz3M2 ByaPv+tcPZYs+ckUwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlbHo6xX2goUCFTfvTWZpYJzL28XIwSEhYCLR Py+mi5ETyBSTuHBvPVsXIxeHkMARRokNLx8xgSSEBJYzSvR/8gOx2QR0JJ4/+scMYosIKEu8 nfefEWQOs4C+xP2f4iBhYYEYidObvjFBlMRKnDv+nwXCNpL4vWIZI4jNIqAq0Xf/OlicV8Bb Yt3b9cwQqxqZJPZtVgS5gVOglVFi87KHYEWMQMd9P7UGbCizgLjErSfzmSCOFpBYsuc8M4Qt KvHy8T9WCFtZYsmT/SwQ9ToSC3Z/YoOwrSXufNkIZWtLLFv4mhniCEGJkzOfsExgFJ+FZMUs JO2zkLTPQtI+C0n7AkbWVYwcpcWpZbnpRoabGIERdUyCzXEH44JPlocYpTlYlMR5Q10vBAgJ pCeWpGanphakFsUXleakFh9iZOLglGpgzJQ8Y1WyN6WNJ+99gcuBmjv3L38/a1T5vMume9Yi Do4Nf8qDNBkW+et4r9VMPlK5jfWJrZpfec/X0vl71Dj35FucMGTlmSK5tsAuoDOTV/OiAqv1 i+2fCx+t8tJOuaP2zpBx2tmseW637Ndfn9D7lUly5fdm/sPunJN/8P8VklSbM+3DjnI1JZbi jERDLeai4kQAFkRqx3YCAAA= Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] New Version Notification for draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-01.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:14:11 -0000 I think the draft is a bit optimistic with respect to its claim of satisfyi= ng homenet requirements. For example, there is a very limited set of multi-= homing topologies where the internal routers don't find themselves asking, = "Which way is up?". Additionally, without source routing, I don't see how i= ngress filtering can be avoided. Perhaps multi-homing should be removed.=20 Thanks, Acee=20 On Mar 13, 2013, at 6:09 PM, Tim Chown wrote: >=20 > On 26 Feb 2013, at 15:46, Chris Grundemann w= rote: >=20 >> Hail Homenet, >>=20 >> FYI - We have updated our "HIPnet" draft. This -01 is a minor update, >> which includes almost exclusively editorial fixes. We have taken note of >> all feedback received thus far, both on and off list, and will work to >> incorporate that feedback in further revisions as it makes sense. >=20 > Hi Chris, >=20 > It's good to see a 'lightweight' alternative being put forward, with a de= mo here. >=20 > From the arch text point of view I agree it's largely compatible with -07= , assuming the text about 'routing protocol' were rewritten to 'routing fun= ctionality', since you install routes automatically up/down. >=20 > The two points that are partly met are the prefix utilisation efficiency = (since it's hierarchical DHCP-PD) and whether arbitrary topologies are supp= orted (given the use of ND in a 'spanning tree' like approach). But it does= tick a lot of boxes, and uses existing protocols. Topics such as realms a= nd borders, and naming/SD are orthogonal to how the prefixes and routing is= configured. >=20 > The interesting question for the WG is how such an approach could interop= erate with (say) a homenet solution using zOSPF. Are the homenet solutions = 'all or nothing', or is there something we could do now to improve the chan= ces of future interoperability if hipnet is deployed now? >=20 > Tim > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Sat Mar 16 01:00:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69FE721F8B96 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2013 01:00:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.042 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.042 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.121, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EJfiCqa06P72 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2013 01:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD3021F8B8A for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2013 01:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id l13so1161779wie.14 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2013 01:00:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent :mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6hNPSr5aVzwHK+HhEvaUzKDonmAkdQSeO2QdutpWrkk=; b=d2JQoZPBTOwlJgWPJQTYFvpr6jbfnEH5cDQOUSYn//JyhI4wdOkToakpCbkY8HFHNL +6I2zuXxr7LM0r9M5ez9q8XhxDVbAdOacSmMdwfNK/y88XZaAgK6e8AhNajuLHHZeLRR +JskVEXLwMXvNJrdE/cij+ah6INwIiWuk9P+9WVyC6fAqVFRXUtQ2SWWZMPlbtkgkX+S mDgA18xCVqJ3CS9a78isOUMF9Xet7MZzZdf+cD36MXalmtqy6dmqGOxXahnJrEHXI7li TJByq/G5KJXujHwvrlL9x7nqddgPAF9OIuuKHMcVC9VmxU/fasoTbUewxSJPXjMlS2O4 VEIw== X-Received: by 10.194.172.71 with SMTP id ba7mr15215916wjc.26.1363420837735; Sat, 16 Mar 2013 01:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.65] (host-2-101-188-149.as13285.net. [2.101.188.149]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o8sm1958600wix.7.2013.03.16.01.00.35 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 16 Mar 2013 01:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <514426B4.1050600@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 08:00:52 +0000 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Thomas References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> <51430047.2020005@gridmerge.com> <51436D42.9070900@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <51436D42.9070900@mtcc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com, homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 08:00:39 -0000 On 15/03/2013 18:49, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/15/2013 04:04 AM, Robert Cragie wrote: >> >> On 14/03/2013 9:42 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >>> On 03/14/2013 10:03 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >>>>> From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mike@mtcc.com] >>>> [...] >>>>> In today's world access control is gated at L2 via wpa or similar. >>>>> Are you >>>>> suggesting that we have a L3 equivalent? In addition? In replacement? >>>> We need a solution to this problem. I think this is the first >>>> important thing to note, and so far it isn't noted (or I missed it). >>>> Which solution is open for discussion. >>>> >>>> Can we agree thus far? >>> >>> Well, it seems to me that we have a solution today at L2, at >>> least for wireless which is the most pressing need. Am I missing >>> something? Or are talking about remote access into your homenet? >> L2 access is fine if the authenticator is one hop away. It won't work >> otherwise. We had this issue with mesh networks using RPL where >> authentication needs to be relayed through the existing network to the >> authenticator and access control is performed by RPL routers on the >> boundary of the network. We solved it using the PANA relay function >> (RFC 6345). I also have some ideas for more complex network admission >> using multiple authenticators in a mesh network which could apply >> here. I will try and get the ideas down in a digestible form. > > So I guess where this is going is "should AAA be a part of the homenet > architecture". Yes? (fsvo: AAA). Yes for Authorisation. It's much less clear to me that (cryptographic) Authentication is a requirement, and fairly clear to me that Accounting isn't. Brian From mcr@sandelman.ca Mon Mar 18 11:58:54 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF85A21F88FC for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:58:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rC71VBWuGReT for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1467221F88C0 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B427220168 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 796CD63860; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:58:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE2863827 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:58:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <51436C15.8010005@mtcc.com> References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> <12665.1363357420@sandelman.ca> <51436C15.8010005@mtcc.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 18:58:54 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {a short reply, but I will keep it unread, because I have more to day} >>>>> "Michael" =3D=3D Michael Thomas writes: >> So, homenet wants a particular configuration, and we need to >> write it down. We also need to provide for signaling from the >> ISP as to what they expect. I think that there are four >> situations, and ideally, I'd like eliminate at least two: Michael> Can we not use "ISP"? There's no reason why it needs to Michael> be. Maybe DNS Service Provider (DSP) or something more Michael> neutral? Well, there are three possible zones involved: 1) the reverse zone. 2) an ISP specific forward one. 3) a zone the home user provides. (1) and (2) are *ISP* specific, so I think that actually one does need to say ISP, and not DSP. (3) is, I agree, not specific to an ISP. Michael> I'd venture to say that the requirement ought to be that my Michael> homenet devices MUST be able to automatically (=3D no human Michael> intervention) be able to add/change RR's in my domain Michael> within some policies. I find it a little more plausible I agree. I found the whole "people like to turn off their CER" weird. But, that's because sandleman.ca lives at my home, and when I'm travelling is exactly when I don't want my CER off.... but I accept that I'm an IETF-type geek, and this protocol isn't about me. Michael> In Mark's parlance if I've got it right, CER would be an Michael> unlisted authoritative server which is a master to DSP's Michael> listed authoritative servers who are slaves to CER for my Michael> domain. I think #2 folds into this too, because even your Yes. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUUdj3oqHRg3pndX9AQJKzwP5AUcx4pBRJuJ6CVp0WNamEnjyYYAFpwWb xUv/TYLW4eqQ0OJw/elw8XSlkWpRM5vDccfX7FoSTg5HgzdVIdTAiaoAouUqO2C5 63Aiya7WvAEXYw+l4N+M4w7ur3FZ/jUZBYfbiZ+aIZCrwSVguc9j3NkasZhyjHVA 6ahlQ960sKs= =yP7T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Mon Mar 18 12:07:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1969B21F90A8 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:07:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aoxFGIKT3oRV for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F8921F87BB for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60B720168 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 75B0B63860; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:02:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FC663827 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:02:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" In-Reply-To: <514370FC.60801@mtcc.com> References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> <514370FC.60801@mtcc.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:07:13 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable see inline >>>>> "Michael" =3D=3D Michael Thomas writes: >> Homenet and code point of view, the important requirement would >> actually be:=20 >> CER MUST be able to be authoritative name server for >> at least one reverse (ip6.arpa) zone, and at least one >> forward zone. >> CER SHOULD support zone transfers to a secondary server, >> which SHOULD be configurable manually, and SHOULD be >> configurable by some TBD DHCPv6 option. Michael> I'm confused, is the DHCPv6 part connected in any way to the z= one Michael> transfer part? I thought the DHCP part that Simon was Michael> talking about=20 What prefix under ip6.arpa to populate depends upon the DHCPv6 PD value(s). If we are a listed master, then we may need to do something in DHCP to let the ISP know where our zone is (and if we have one). If we are an unlisted master, then we may need to configure ACLs for the listed masters to zone transfer from us, so we need DHCP to tell us. If we are going to do DNS update, then we need in DHCP to find out where to update to, and to establish keying material. >> CER SHOULD permit NS records for zones to be configured >> manually, and via DHCPv6 option, and SHOULD support >> situation where no NS record points at CER itself. Michael> Are you saying that the CER would use the ISP's DHCP to get the Michael> addresses of the authoritative slave servers? What if my ISP i= sn't Michael> my DSP? I think we need to be careful with any such assumption. Your ISP has to be your DSP for ip6.arpa and a sub-domain of isp.example.ne= t. For your own FQDN, it's whatever you want, and that's why I listed "manually". The no NS record points at CER itself is the unlisted master case. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUUdk4oqHRg3pndX9AQJHIAP9E3WA9zrBb3g1uJndkNRLzhu6Oz1HFcq5 OZfjqG9zkhExAFyxKOOT5PlS0Q7sAzJ7AAS7jt3ZcMB2xdBnjYBCTg23PH4uESJH 7k9WFysD3KpxJGF2u8MoYrAd7mzRcDhZ/WDfbj13hiaAbma4OpQFPCAmPdQnZQeV qvrkm+E2qBU= =mrUZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Mon Mar 18 12:08:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E9721F90B3 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:08:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.078, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HljBqB8R7GO3 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49A121F9099 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439D820168 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 0C55863860; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0170363827 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:04:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" In-Reply-To: <20130315204814.0016430EDA50@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> <20130315204814.0016430EDA50@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:08:07 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Mark" =3D=3D Mark Andrews writes: Mark> It SHOULD be possible to configure a TSIG keys (plural) to authen= ticate Mark> dynamic updates of reverse zones. TSIG keys should be used to Mark> authenticate the update if configured. If TSIG keys are not Mark> configured the update SHOULD be performed over TCP not UDP. This Mark> is to permit the server to use the TCP connection as a weak Mark> authentication mechanism. Mark> The update code should check for the presence of CNAME and DNAME Mark> records at the well know reverse names and adjust the update requ= ests Mark> to update the target names of the CNAME / DNAME records. This al= lows Mark> for RFC 2317 style delegations to work. Do you expect the client to do this, or the server? I take it that the update goes to the host listed on the SOA record for the zone? =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUUdlPIqHRg3pndX9AQL02QP9GDgwk0Ez4Ve/qo/jD/mqZx/vW23nRrHg ogOJ32yoRu41Vqt479Fy6S8DMdrvTDcJT70yCN/nEbKOtrUGEE2goLFUzVtbpfUE +wh7Ny4XfbGrPpFIYjKaDj848sNuy0FjWgMIwV6v+OuFm2rDRa+RXPpxERRTrTP8 40QKFvBFXtI= =5Aq3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mike@mtcc.com Mon Mar 18 12:12:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF1021F853E for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:12:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hZFShXoq113l for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C58121F8548 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from piolinux.mtcc.com (63-171-70-46.dsl.volcano.net [63.171.70.46] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2IJAp9n005187 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:10:51 -0700 Message-ID: <514766B7.8010205@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:10:47 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080501) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> <12665.1363357420@sandelman.ca> <51436C15.8010005@mtcc.com> <5906.1363633118@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <5906.1363633118@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2149; t=1363633852; x=1364497852; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Michael=20Richardson=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=dms/ugGKoFFRrd/JLprhMZRCDjLotIdM1j4bvOHvLVY=; b=kWGmVeTE7ioBo3Uo6RT4pd/JhL2WSxAu2Eaw9CephiMFvau7t1HZ2mqAh8 y3dJr4Y+kEE7Yh8gaNlryfsKSdupU4G7BikcNsH2wKBofGgTGXAE8kyDCFrM 1gX406UNol87gxNjYHheKEE4i2mr8OqbdJg+xEI2POdJ0JzW7Yq/M=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:12:08 -0000 Michael Richardson wrote: > {a short reply, but I will keep it unread, because I have more to day} > >>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Thomas writes: > >> So, homenet wants a particular configuration, and we need to > >> write it down. We also need to provide for signaling from the > >> ISP as to what they expect. I think that there are four > >> situations, and ideally, I'd like eliminate at least two: > > Michael> Can we not use "ISP"? There's no reason why it needs to > Michael> be. Maybe DNS Service Provider (DSP) or something more > Michael> neutral? > > Well, there are three possible zones involved: > > 1) the reverse zone. > 2) an ISP specific forward one. > 3) a zone the home user provides. > > (1) and (2) are *ISP* specific, so I think that actually one does need > to say ISP, and not DSP. The only one specific to an ISP is 1) since *.mikeshouse.homedns.google.com is just as valid as *.mikeshouse.homedns.comcast.net. > > (3) is, I agree, not specific to an ISP. > > Michael> I'd venture to say that the requirement ought to be that my > Michael> homenet devices MUST be able to automatically (= no human > Michael> intervention) be able to add/change RR's in my domain > Michael> within some policies. I find it a little more plausible > > I agree. > I found the whole "people like to turn off their CER" weird. > But, that's because sandleman.ca lives at my home, and when I'm > travelling is exactly when I don't want my CER off.... but I accept > that I'm an IETF-type geek, and this protocol isn't about me. One of the advantages of the unlisted authoritative server which is a master to the authoritative ones in the cloud is that it doesn't much matter whether the CER is 24/7 that I'm aware of. The slaves will not stop serving the zone if I go off to Africa for a month vacation with my CER off afaik. But I think that turning the CER off for non-geeks will be a lot more common in the future if we have all kinds of "servers" in the home like cams, lighting, jukeboxen, etc, etc. Mike Mike From mike@mtcc.com Mon Mar 18 12:20:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9FD11E80B8 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VKycRDz6-KeK for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6336C21F8C23 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from piolinux.mtcc.com (63-171-70-46.dsl.volcano.net [63.171.70.46] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2IJKIlg008474 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:18 -0700 Message-ID: <514768EE.2020701@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:14 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080501) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> <514370FC.60801@mtcc.com> <6632.1363633378@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <6632.1363633378@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1753; t=1363634419; x=1364498419; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Michael=20Richardson=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=aa/rhXXKUxFufQdy1Mfjk6ljjIVEsWy3MW+hJ8xq5FM=; b=p+GPwcEwCi3T7lByfoa9Ivz1ir0IEa4AdtGHCDEKEmg+krzWl5J07Tm626 mFyHyOUVGOpNTor5J1rLio8w3uzbp2wrLh7x2evuw1TAe88MoZ3Whpww1/sW CbNSeJbUdQ+tMea/f+J+uYWPCrtwOZtFPzthbHuCEJtYRihPgfDWU=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:20:28 -0000 Michael Richardson wrote: > see inline > >>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Thomas writes: > >> Homenet and code point of view, the important requirement would > >> actually be: > >> CER MUST be able to be authoritative name server for > >> at least one reverse (ip6.arpa) zone, and at least one > >> forward zone. > > >> CER SHOULD support zone transfers to a secondary server, > >> which SHOULD be configurable manually, and SHOULD be > >> configurable by some TBD DHCPv6 option. > > Michael> I'm confused, is the DHCPv6 part connected in any way to the zone > Michael> transfer part? I thought the DHCP part that Simon was > Michael> talking about > > What prefix under ip6.arpa to populate depends upon the DHCPv6 PD > value(s). If we are a listed master, then we may need to do something > in DHCP to let the ISP know where our zone is (and if we have one). The reverse map. Yes, obviously only the address space's parent owner can delegate to us. But that is only completely true for the reverse zone. > If we are an unlisted master, then we may need to configure ACLs for the > listed masters to zone transfer from us, so we need DHCP to tell us. > > If we are going to do DNS update, then we need in DHCP to find out where > to update to, and to establish keying material. Just for the reverse zone. The forward zone(s) may have nothing to do with an ISP, and we shouldn't expect any special relationship (this was my big problem with the Orange draft). I think it's just as likely if not more likely that non-isp's will perform this name service for homes -- think of the data mining possibilities for our naming being the "product". Mike From mcr@sandelman.ca Mon Mar 18 13:03:46 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544BD21F8F2B for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:03:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E3e793hML-Kj for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C02521F90C8 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08D420168 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 3C25F63860; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3230B63827 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:03:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <51436C15.8010005@mtcc.com> References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <51423F8F.8050509@mtcc.com> <12665.1363357420@sandelman.ca> <51436C15.8010005@mtcc.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:03:47 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Michael" =3D=3D Michael Thomas writes: >> 3) ISP provides blah-blah-blah.isp.example.net for home user, >> and user has no travel cares. >> 4) ISP provides premium-premium-premium.isp.example.net for >> home user, and user has travel desires. Michael> As far as the difference between #3 & #4, it seems to be Michael> whether you plan=20 Michael> to travel or not? I think we should always expect that CER Michael> might be down for some protracted amount of time, if Michael> nothing else due to connectivity problems. I'm not sure why Michael> you label #4 as "premium"? It seems to be the=20 Michael> same service as #3. I'm saying that the ISP might be doing service differentiation here, and the difference is whether or not you get name server updates when your CER is down. On the other hand, we could define an architecture where the ISP always is the authoritative master, and if the Internet service is down, the homenet has to rely on mDNS only in order to print. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUUdzE4qHRg3pndX9AQITtgQAirCvEVfRiXhzxPsJOW+jHVdYlhLWU7aU Lk676HS4hgMT5MiOyBCgiOoZl0fVT5+uueYQ4IcC2YyL8B6gmHiX8mAo4GYme3XQ +IsuOhn/knPAiCd5fnlBCTBso7eS+RqNXZIiLFqYdFdiNQ+2xDB9M9wleLyfmhGB LkrPNC7Jaks= =klo3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mcr@sandelman.ca Mon Mar 18 13:10:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFCA521F90DB for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:10:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iGull3BFtn+q for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F265821F90D7 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4A820168 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 4355F63860; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3978863827 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:09:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" In-Reply-To: <514768EE.2020701@mtcc.com> References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> <514370FC.60801@mtcc.com> <6632.1363633378@sandelman.ca> <514768EE.2020701@mtcc.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:10:12 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Michael" =3D=3D Michael Thomas writes: Michael> Just for the reverse zone. The forward zone(s) may have Michael> nothing to do with an ISP, and we shouldn't expect any Michael> special relationship (this was my big problem=20 That's why I listed two forward cases. 1) where the ISP delegates some forward space. 2) where the home user has their own. We have been seriously considering making strong statements that ISPs should do #1. (but not, require the home user to use it) =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUUd0l4qHRg3pndX9AQKWuAQAjhL2C7LyxTxOm6x08LaxB9du8fdV4kTF zBDiJtUHNsRb2AJWnK7mz5bi5vg+85FsSQ2Bg/7paLyTE2LboiqZhB7ZUMdcE3w2 pkBayeJeDJqSQHHGZXHjcmnYjh4j2QI3R6ITM309f8riiKvp3+rzQRaNyFTTQ0FR JxCKsAtpmjI= =zk/+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mike@mtcc.com Mon Mar 18 13:14:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC54A21F8C0C for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:14:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Ix+I1MaORmh for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C7B21F8BF2 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from piolinux.mtcc.com (63-171-70-46.dsl.volcano.net [63.171.70.46] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2IKEmYf026847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:14:49 -0700 Message-ID: <514775B4.1060200@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:14:44 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080501) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> <514370FC.60801@mtcc.com> <6632.1363633378@sandelman.ca> <514768EE.2020701@mtcc.com> <18327.1363637399@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <18327.1363637399@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=910; t=1363637689; x=1364501689; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Michael=20Richardson=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=XbbDzO99e/81t89lYDp8CXGUeB8wkcjHfD3zudw1aJg=; b=fhYYX0NgkauH8OaO0qsQUEq0YCxUZGGDkNG4XNvWvFiUQYHP/Uq11UDoYG +ilS9JOwFwtMNUt7KLvTQ4DZSTpE5HuFnP8WKS/enJ4u0jNZaxLaWzMafn/D 7iyLeiIb+zbNuGjttWK/2rHZvT4+hnt3uvyPs1W0o2f+cxNotMgDg=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:14:51 -0000 Michael Richardson wrote: >>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Thomas writes: > Michael> Just for the reverse zone. The forward zone(s) may have > Michael> nothing to do with an ISP, and we shouldn't expect any > Michael> special relationship (this was my big problem > > That's why I listed two forward cases. > 1) where the ISP delegates some forward space. > 2) where the home user has their own. You're missing another case: where somebody other than the ISP delegates forward space. Or just s/ISP/DSP; > We have been seriously considering making strong statements that ISPs > should do #1. (but not, require the home user to use it) Why? I mean it would be nice if they do, but SHOULD? What bad things happen to me if I don't get to set up the reverse map? Hopefully it won't be because everybody wants to unknowingly run a mail server all over again :) Mike From mcr@sandelman.ca Mon Mar 18 13:19:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E72C821F910A for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:19:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pSTtBlubYsVh for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146A721F9109 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6B820168 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 240E363860; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:19:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1646863827 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:19:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" In-Reply-To: <514775B4.1060200@mtcc.com> References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> <514370FC.60801@mtcc.com> <6632.1363633378@sandelman.ca> <514768EE.2020701@mtcc.com> <18327.1363637399@sandelman.ca> <514775B4.1060200@mtcc.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.3; nmh 1.3-dev; XEmacs 21.4 (patch 22) X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:19:20 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> "Michael" =3D=3D Michael Thomas writes: Michael> Michael Richardson wrote: >>>>>>> "Michael" =3D=3D Michael Thomas writes: Michael> Just for the reverse zone. The forward zone(s) may have Michael> nothing to do with an ISP, and we shouldn't expect any Michael> special relationship (this was my big problem That's why I >> listed two forward cases. >> 1) where the ISP delegates some forward space. >> 2) where the home user has their own. Michael> You're missing another case: where somebody other than the Michael> ISP delegates forward=20 Michael> space. Or just s/ISP/DSP; No, I haven't. Only the ISP can delegate something in the DHCPv6. All other cases communicated to the CER via a manual process involving the "home user" =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUAUUd2wIqHRg3pndX9AQLvCAP+OhHJIh/R2feU9+ULrxILEo4Wfv5PLfFc 8Y6hTrTaEwnWrGisNXWETQ3gtSNzb2UvxyarBGqopi5ZLif36Gc2D5Ix5SKY8MAd egnsa84yOOPSlI24M/6MdXcKYGdyVayXq/GM3FM/FRzJtXi0b0nyCbEEdFJrlfMI YcZtv7eIjFw= =mpAT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mike@mtcc.com Mon Mar 18 13:34:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03AF221F9075 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:34:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sqpb3BOGZ5DU for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:9fe0:224:8cff:feaa:6d9b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCAA21F8EDF for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from piolinux.mtcc.com (63-171-70-46.dsl.volcano.net [63.171.70.46] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2IKYJKd001421 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:34:20 -0700 Message-ID: <51477A47.2010902@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 13:34:15 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080501) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <51410296.1090309@mtcc.com> <20130313234752.6D47C30D0566@drugs.dv.isc.org> <16704.1363267149@sandelman.ca> <20130314210907.A2D8030DC44D@drugs.dv.isc.org> <11573.1363356633@sandelman.ca> <514370FC.60801@mtcc.com> <6632.1363633378@sandelman.ca> <514768EE.2020701@mtcc.com> <18327.1363637399@sandelman.ca> <514775B4.1060200@mtcc.com> <20042.1363637952@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <20042.1363637952@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1301; t=1363638860; x=1364502860; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20will=20CER's=20be=20globall y=20authoritative=20resolvers? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Michael=20Richardson=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=Sf/MDEgEatEN7FPXPq190b4765VHwAfXaYe0/qfRQpY=; b=s0b3ZkAlJsaFnEVTue/EBmxtYlUVewgEkgAQmPdR9ZL5/rj57QqSjzwmvk /7ajGHCFfWjsrpk3/PhQGJQlQBHT0amJUcFvjztYjY1IkbikuvFjZd4OV0y+ 1NOqEGd4gdQ3NuHDOPF3evHaD2lWng1t8bLlBXzO/ghOoKH+sxPLQ=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] will CER's be globally authoritative resolvers? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:34:22 -0000 Michael Richardson wrote: >>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Thomas writes: > Michael> Michael Richardson wrote: > >>>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Thomas writes: > Michael> Just for the reverse zone. The forward zone(s) may have > Michael> nothing to do with an ISP, and we shouldn't expect any > Michael> special relationship (this was my big problem That's why I > >> listed two forward cases. > >> 1) where the ISP delegates some forward space. > >> 2) where the home user has their own. > > Michael> You're missing another case: where somebody other than the > Michael> ISP delegates forward > Michael> space. Or just s/ISP/DSP; > > No, I haven't. > Only the ISP can delegate something in the DHCPv6. All other cases > communicated to the CER via a manual process involving the "home user" Assuming that there isn't any other manual steps necessary, like say, needing keys between the CER and their DNS servers to slave for them. In any case, that's an advantage. But if they charge $1/month for that advantage and Google charges $0, I think people will vote with their manual input fingers. This points at, btw, the need to actually flesh this out as to what happens between CER and DSP. Mike From mike@mtcc.com Tue Mar 19 13:25:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B59D21F8FB8 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:25:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.223, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K+Vn6JSCIoa8 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF67221F8FB6 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2JKP6uL005045 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:25:06 -0700 Message-ID: <5148C9A2.4000109@mtcc.com> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:25:06 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> <51418908.7020406@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51418908.7020406@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1193; t=1363724707; x=1364588707; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Why=20do=20homenets=20need= 20SD? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Brian=20E=20Carpenter=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=zIFgRoPpPbAjrHq2jMeSe00wzZ8DqI/ua98mZ/3AoeE=; b=dbFFkvWH4BgcALa2EV0a4ktDIBetJVfcg5UivVlVX4FRTkwbUtVkalwpzd 9dm3eh2M2A5JTjIvcZZ/5idEgPC7+fBaHLfVCXzUVJqpQ5xihObcCzNXZpNo b3/LfCZ5giUbYhhTK7+DJ6oiiIYdeSWFtFWJq2ikiQUTskElS+myE=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:25:15 -0000 On 03/14/2013 01:23 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 13/03/2013 23:47, Michael Thomas wrote: > >> What I find most telling is that after 25 years, printers are still the canonical >> example of the "need" for SD. But printers have entire programs/wizards that >> support their existence, so they're really lousy as a canonical example. It would >> be nice for things to attach themselves to my net and not require their awful apps >> to be installed. > Exactly. That's why the architecture needs SD, in a nutshell. > I'm not terribly convinced that SD is even the whole story which is why I have such a hard time with the short shrift the architecture document gives it. After my trip down to Widgetmart I dump open a bag of ip widgets, would they self organize? Should they self-organize? Everybody here keeps talking about zeroconf, after all. If not, what is expected of me (the end user) in their use and/or assembly? What problems are we trying to solve in my home? Is SD as its currently implemented by Apple *exactly* what we want in the long term? How do we even know how to answer that question if the problem/requirements aren't even documented? Mike From mike@mtcc.com Tue Mar 19 13:39:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A6F21F872E for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:39:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.392 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.392 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.207, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FhpadF+UGrmp for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEE1F21F8B45 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2JKdCIk009844 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:39:13 -0700 Message-ID: <5148CCF0.8040905@mtcc.com> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:39:12 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DB26.70104@mtcc.com> <9C88C455-BB34-4FDA-8BA7-FA19A8E38149@fugue.com> <51418DA7.3090804@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51418DA7.3090804@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1076; t=1363725554; x=1364589554; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20global=20vs.=20local=20nami ng |Sender:=20 |To:=20Brian=20E=20Carpenter=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=IWO0xWcOHHsWn++9DNp2OkVcxzhU27BmpLwkz9I5cNM=; b=Z/7Ca58/mkjKsViAIatq4Ot3B4PvQd+bBIckLA0TWttiV6OpFSmjn8wfvq yX86wnZctjAn0h03Y4YZ0vy3zvxdFr1tbVSdmUfKQYNT6j0leX7I6MgUi4kd MC8wYgdlAkM8TJ82R8dYCRK2y4L2PAR2rEIFlX4wRAR/qxzImMghw=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: Tim Chown , Ted Lemon , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] global vs. local naming X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:39:53 -0000 On 03/14/2013 01:43 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 13/03/2013 20:54, Ted Lemon wrote: >> On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >>> All of this is lacking in section 3.7. If I were a contractor using this "architecture" >>> I wouldn't know what to build. >> The architecture document acts as a basis for the work that you, as a contractor, would build from. You can't build from an architecture document, unless you are a lot smarter than we are. > OK, but that doesn't mean that the *architecture* should punt on principles > of the namespace. > > I'll put down a marker: local namespaces are ambiguous and therefore should > not be part of an architecture. I agree. > However, there is a way to reconcile this > with pragmatic use of .local - stipulate that when a global name is needed > for a local resource, it is .local... > > That requires some namespace knitting but it is architecturally clean. > If you had a place to hook into the global namespace, why ever use .local at all? Mike From touch@isi.edu Tue Mar 19 13:51:31 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1933C21F8F85 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:51:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.643 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.643 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.956, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 45wq7qjShF2Y for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B29021F8F81 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.166] (abc.isi.edu [128.9.160.166]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r2JKnZfN000945 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5148CF5B.6010704@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:49:31 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Thomas References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> <51418908.7020406@gmail.com> <5148C9A2.4000109@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <5148C9A2.4000109@mtcc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:51:31 -0000 On 3/19/2013 1:25 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: ... > What I find most telling is that after 25 years, printers are still > the canonical example of the "need" for SD. But printers have entire > programs/wizards that support their existence, so they're really > lousy as a canonical example. It would be nice for things to attach > themselves to my net and not require their awful apps to be > installed. Not much else has popped up widely yet as a "shared device that needs to be discovered". Network-attached storage held promise to be another example, until "the cloud" overtook the idea. There are plenty of other devices that are - or soon will be - useful to discover. E.g., thermostats, car chargers, etc. - the 'smart grid' stuff. Joe From gettysjim@gmail.com Tue Mar 19 15:52:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC80C21F8E0F for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:52:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.84 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.84 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.144, BAYES_00=-2.599, FB_WORD2_END_DOLLAR=3.294, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZucOmLAUTT97 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-f47.google.com (mail-oa0-f47.google.com [209.85.219.47]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090CC21F8AE6 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f47.google.com with SMTP id o17so1129965oag.6 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:51:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Cxuh0LzWAXDg+e+DYjgjMhOXRZ1NcAsGpLOjRFvGNcI=; b=tDSBtGYjsujO3Ziup1vghgq6I0KJ9KxcJsvcfu+S+n5uBwoTZNHrUhzrsjM6EHxVEZ pRKTKFzG8vHXPSLqw7iOL1+EbFB624mGaIrTfMxgUZDD3/f5lhLRL1yJ59NY9axKWYgc E39NtybN5Z9Kh9deln3ZagD0CVLp6YSnp9IBg4D5XY86vpZ1g0Wkmug86wskeHXB74Ok uShLbAT+h0T3HizNKXsZz8jNRBLRYSBHeosF+RZZnQzhbVaMAXEmo3HT2LuHffPmLivX 7vHQwj9OveM03/ViFST/Wbqv875l5WE0IbAFzeCSaUB4deoPHpyKOuNFkCez06MC/WKC Aniw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.95.34 with SMTP id dh2mr2743402obb.65.1363733513443; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.22.193 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:51:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5148CF5B.6010704@isi.edu> References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> <51418908.7020406@gmail.com> <5148C9A2.4000109@mtcc.com> <5148CF5B.6010704@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 18:51:53 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: BK-2GlZ9SEzK3ScYrhHMM3_W5x8 Message-ID: From: Jim Gettys To: Joe Touch Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e015386d8a3224304d84ef354 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Michael Thomas Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 22:52:05 -0000 --089e015386d8a3224304d84ef354 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On 3/19/2013 1:25 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > ... > > What I find most telling is that after 25 years, printers are still >> the canonical example of the "need" for SD. But printers have entire >> programs/wizards that support their existence, so they're really >> lousy as a canonical example. It would be nice for things to attach >> themselves to my net and not require their awful apps to be >> installed. >> > > Not much else has popped up widely yet as a "shared device that needs to > be discovered". Network-attached storage held promise to be another > example, until "the cloud" overtook the idea. > > There are plenty of other devices that are - or soon will be - useful to > discover. E.g., thermostats, car chargers, etc. - the 'smart grid' stuff. In my house, the inventory includes today: o two printers o TV set (via apple TV and Roku) o HiFi equipment (my new HiFi can be controlled via phone/tablet applications; it also does streaming audio from various services) o I think my Blu-Ray player is also, but I've never tried. o Home routers (a mesh) o NAS box (clouds don't provide enough performance for most people, at least yet). o web server on home router gateway o ssh services on a number of our laptops and the home server. The following are also in the network, but are using remote web sites, which I'm not very happy about; I'd prefer to keep these under my personal control. o thermostats o scale Most of these are Linux boxes under the covers (Linux dominates the CE device space at this point); advertising a service is a trivial Avahi configuration that it appears the mass market is already capable already of usually doing the right thing to make services discoverable. To make it concrete; some of the above devices are powered off atm, but mdns-scan reports: jg@jg-thinkpad:/var/log$ mdns-scan + jg-thinkpad [08:11:96:75:1d:94]._workstation._tcp.local + jg-thinkpad._udisks-ssh._tcp.local + andi-laptop [00:13:02:46:01:75]._workstation._tcp.local + Secure Shell on cerowrt._ssh._tcp.local + Web Server on cerowrt._http._tcp.local + Apple TV._airplay._tcp.local + 5855CA4A3092@Apple TV._raop._tcp.local + atom [90:fb:a6:85:d1:6c]._workstation._tcp.local + Officejet Pro L7590 [9D5AB9]._printer._tcp.local + Officejet Pro L7590 [9D5AB9]._http._tcp.local + Officejet Pro L7590 [9D5AB9]._pdl-datastream._tcp.local Browsing ... / What is more, it's pretty easy to configure avahi to announce services for other devices if they don't themselves, not that I'm happy to have lots of multicast traffic going forward. *That* we need to tackle head-on, anyway. - Jim > > > Joe > > ______________________________**_________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/homenet > --089e015386d8a3224304d84ef354 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu> wrote:


On 3/19/2013 1:25 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
...

What I find most telling is that after 25 years, printers are still
the canonical example of the "need" for SD. But printers have ent= ire
programs/wizards that support their existence, so they're really
lousy as a canonical example. It would be nice for things to attach
themselves to my net and not require their awful apps to be
installed.

Not much else has popped up widely yet as a "shared device that needs = to be discovered". Network-attached storage held promise to be another= example, until "the cloud" overtook the idea.

There are plenty of other devices that are - or soon will be - useful to di= scover. E.g., thermostats, car chargers, etc. - the 'smart grid' st= uff.

In my house, the inventory inclu= des today:
=A0o two printers
=A0o TV set (via apple TV and = Roku)
=A0o HiFi equipment (my new HiFi can be controlled vi= a phone/tablet applications; it also does streaming audio from various serv= ices)
=A0o I think my Blu-Ray player is also, but I've never tried= .
=A0o Home routers (a mesh)
=A0o NAS box (= clouds don't provide enough performance for most people, at least yet).=
=A0o web server on home router gateway
=A0o ssh = services on a number of our laptops and the home server.
The following are also in the network, but are using rem= ote web sites, which I'm not very happy about; I'd prefer to keep t= hese under my personal control.
=A0o thermostats
=A0o scale

=
Most of these are Linux boxes under the covers (Linux dominates = the CE device space at this point); advertising a service is a trivial Avah= i configuration that it appears the mass market is already capable already = of usually doing the right thing to make services discoverable.

To make it concrete; some of the above devi= ces are powered off atm, but mdns-scan reports:
jg@jg-= thinkpad:/var/log$ mdns-scan=A0
+ jg-thinkpad [08:11:96:75:1d:94]= ._workstation._tcp.local
+ jg-thinkpad._udisks-ssh._tcp.local
+ andi-laptop [00:13:02= :46:01:75]._workstation._tcp.local
+ Secure Shell on cerowrt._ssh= ._tcp.local
+ Web Server on cerowrt._http._tcp.local
+ Apple TV._airplay._tcp.local
+ 5855CA4A3092@Apple TV._raop._tcp= .local
+ atom [90:fb:a6:85:d1:6c]._workstation._tcp.local
+ Officejet Pro L7590 [9D5AB9]._printer._tcp.local
+ Officejet= Pro L7590 [9D5AB9]._http._tcp.local
+ Officejet Pro L7590 [9D5AB9]._pdl-datastream._tcp.local
Br= owsing ... / =A0 =A0 =A0=A0

What is more, it= 's pretty easy to configure avahi to announce services for other device= s if they don't themselves, not that I'm happy to have lots of mult= icast traffic going forward. =A0*That* we need to tackle head-on, anyway.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0- Jim
=A0=A0


Joe

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--089e015386d8a3224304d84ef354-- From mike@mtcc.com Tue Mar 19 18:23:14 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38B721F8EDE for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 18:23:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.406 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.406 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.193, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2SjtA71hybfU for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 18:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BAB921F8E22 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 18:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2K1NAnP022426 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Mar 2013 18:23:11 -0700 Message-ID: <51490F7E.3010505@mtcc.com> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 18:23:10 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Gettys References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> <51418908.7020406@gmail.com> <5148C9A2.4000109@mtcc.com> <5148CF5B.6010704@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=615; t=1363742591; x=1364606591; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Why=20do=20homenets=20need= 20SD? |Sender:=20 |To:=20Jim=20Gettys=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=v50ueiszGIVTWIAvFv3H4lLAhVF0HTe1L7sZWx5bc+4=; b=NTlfiKD423q38LGFI3fZ3loQjg7ePvICAlY5ebO4EFg3JC4Y0s901sFund XHT83daGPGuFSujm7KeDZTcFbhZD/ZmQlVO7kOFuzpY/uXkJqCxcEg8vbbR/ HTtTxtyI8qYUB8J9AvNnTMgtzli58U2U4beXX36nb7uNeHFmp5mg8=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Joe Touch Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 01:23:15 -0000 On 03/19/2013 03:51 PM, Jim Gettys wrote: > o ssh services on a number of our laptops and the home server. At the risk of beating a dead horse since it's been established that mdns single handedly rescued a major corporation, I have to wonder how many *geeks* would even know how to log into a laptop in their home with sshd listening. I have to say that I don't. That's sort of the problem I have with all of this: we've been conditioned for 30 years to have a monogamous relationship with DNS and now we're being asked to have some mdns nookie on the side. And the names aren't even pretty. Mike From kerlyn2001@gmail.com Tue Mar 19 19:53:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC8321F8F1C for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 19:53:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.727 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.727 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.416, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hHu7ZJfcejgk for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 19:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-f50.google.com (mail-oa0-f50.google.com [209.85.219.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E069121F87A4 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 19:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f50.google.com with SMTP id l20so1298745oag.9 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 19:53:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=dzTgjW4GrV2pm8n6NUim8KZ6IJeBo3oHAKRaCgWahGY=; b=g91us2b1zQCcrk8gIGrarFXA952TnTE6Lxoi8q3dsxCsSjV5FXddc5IbUB9wagPBfD HtpM98ULsUtwtXKf2kKGh0YQfFunAkbahoRsdf8TPYamvbY/w9JGJ5N8DKJBoG4D1nJe 3k/PPlB41NimAiOEwRMxHTCn4tKaOsyiDl4AEV6HCT6jXqSXaOF/Ph7ySwrhCXlUymeg IrErKESzsKKMzpiRN3hZ2+BLX73g6D07cTJ8MKntT7brtjiMxFtBDdBwata7XOIAMJI9 eunwFD5BxMPYkdoBeKywzolXucac7pZo++n2IXthRAkZA0b8a8dxGx0AnrKpHza2wN0F 4kwQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.132.140 with SMTP id ou12mr3158446oeb.56.1363748006355; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 19:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Sender: kerlyn2001@gmail.com Received: by 10.60.4.233 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Mar 2013 19:53:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5148C9A2.4000109@mtcc.com> References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140D255.6010305@mtcc.com> <5140EAD9.9070100@mtcc.com> <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73105ADC6F@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <51411005.90700@mtcc.com> <51418908.7020406@gmail.com> <5148C9A2.4000109@mtcc.com> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 22:53:26 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: mE4I6Rqhk7RDtYYYRcEGSK6LnKk Message-ID: From: Kerry Lynn To: Michael Thomas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b4725287b686204d85253d1 Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Why do homenets need SD? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 02:53:27 -0000 --047d7b4725287b686204d85253d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/14/2013 01:23 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> On 13/03/2013 23:47, Michael Thomas wrote: >> >> What I find most telling is that after 25 years, printers are still the >>> canonical >>> example of the "need" for SD. But printers have entire programs/wizards >>> that >>> support their existence, so they're really lousy as a canonical example. >>> It would >>> be nice for things to attach themselves to my net and not require their >>> awful apps >>> to be installed. >>> >> Exactly. That's why the architecture needs SD, in a nutshell. >> >> > I'm not terribly convinced that SD is even the whole story which is why > I have such a hard time with the short shrift the architecture document > gives it. > > After my trip down to Widgetmart I dump open a bag of ip widgets, > would they self organize? Should they self-organize? Everybody here > keeps talking about zeroconf, after all. If not, what is expected of me > (the end user) in their use and/or assembly? What problems are we > trying to solve in my home? Is SD as its currently implemented by > Apple *exactly* what we want in the long term? How do we even know > how to answer that question if the problem/requirements aren't even > documented? > > It's a working group document. Feel free to contribute text as well as criticism. -K- > Mike > > ______________________________**_________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/homenet > --047d7b4725287b686204d85253d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> = wrote:
On 03/14/2013 01:23 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
On 13/03/2013 23:47, Michael Thomas wrote:

What I find most telling is that after 25 years, printers are still the can= onical
example of the "need" for SD. But printers have entire programs/w= izards =A0that
support their existence, so they're really lousy as a canonical example= . It would
be nice for things to attach themselves to my net and not require their awf= ul apps
to be installed.
Exactly. That's why the architecture needs SD, in a nutshell.


I'm not terribly convinced that SD is even the whole story which is why=
I have such a hard time with the short shrift the architecture document
gives it.

After my trip down to Widgetmart I dump open a bag of ip widgets,
would they self organize? Should they self-organize? Everybody here
keeps talking about zeroconf, after all. If not, what is expected of me
(the end user) in their use and/or assembly? What problems are we
trying to solve in my home? Is SD as its currently implemented by
Apple *exactly* what we want in the long =A0term? How do we even know
how to answer that question if the =A0problem/requirements aren't even<= br> documented?

It's a working group document.=A0 Feel free to co= ntribute text as well as criticism.

-K-
=A0
Mike

_______________________________________________
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--047d7b4725287b686204d85253d1-- From teco@inf-net.nl Wed Mar 20 00:52:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7967521F85B2 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 00:52:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id thgo3tvrSKQK for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 00:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ee0-f50.google.com (mail-ee0-f50.google.com [74.125.83.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8205121F8585 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 00:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ee0-f50.google.com with SMTP id e51so628048eek.37 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 00:52:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=lGwi5PcwMzoIKpQDqTFrW+kxHMRuUuH3NVXIbSk58DA=; b=Hfj8uy1/yWPA2T8qmtXtdqvcfHJ4sRTeXymQ9XZ3EZPbuNwfAehofJBGbaf07m9XTM H0znkmbHuqSEixSpvi0jsL+k/4x0FuFRtVbfdKz+UyWVl0AvtHJVJ2iCr0jTZEADES9c uxELp7JjlVeXVTHRJSC//Kzo/Px7L3oW8rkWnV5BTsHTfB6qmhDRjw7EC7L1cec5nzRl gR2Wn712LsBYXzyucqvGQPreQowOw+gW5mRIafyU3/1CTxQedaEJYPOzxt6bDunpcTZ3 kVNlqfu332WyKpHjfIT95IljjpEc2H/LQOfVlepk/7gURii5QHizfKa0xIutG4y7ByB6 ke/w== X-Received: by 10.14.182.137 with SMTP id o9mr68568980eem.13.1363765922797; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 00:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.4.195] ([188.205.88.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s3sm954587eem.4.2013.03.20.00.52.01 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Mar 2013 00:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: <38688CA2-D731-44C2-A3B1-7077D66B28CC@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 08:51:59 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <9B416DC5-805B-4996-B733-B09158AE1E7C@cisco.com> <38688CA2-D731-44C2-A3B1-7077D66B28CC@cisco.com> To: Ole Troan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmiZ6beQcFuWME+4rtT4usL23br8U/6g5fFH5nyJiDuQtAJdestpise3gHvrWPmZ9ykMQPs Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 07:52:09 -0000 Ole, Still I am puzzled how we can support multiple provisioning domains with = multi-addressed hosts in a homenet. May I reference to the discussion in = mif? http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-mif-1.pdf=20 For providing information on provisioning domains, we might look into = DHCP _and_ ND. I think both can and should be supported. I think one of = the problems is how to merge or multiplex information from/for these = provisioning domains. Has DHCP a kind of ProvisioningDomain_ID on each = (serf of) data element(s)? On SAS/DAS policy, how to create such = automatically in network elements? If we can't on the fly, it might be = irrelevant for homenet. I agree SADR is a major part of the right solution. Source address = indicates the provision domain, at least for IPv6. Hosts need to be = updated and mif should take the lead here. But mif only can take the job = if the network supports multiple provisioning domains well, e.g. SADR. = Updated hosts need SADR as well.=20 And of course the legacy stuff is out there. Re-reading sections on multihoming (3.2.4, also 3.4.4), there is enough = room for solution space. I would expect some more guidelines form an = architecture, but now there are no constrains on what we may work out. = That's fine. May I suggest to add MPTCP (RFC 6824) at bottom of 3.2.4? Teco Op 4 mrt. 2013, om 13:04 heeft Ole Troan het volgende = geschreven: > Teco, >=20 >>>> Reading the homenet-arch, I can't find how multi-addressed hosts = are guided to prefer one address over another. I think such facility is = beneficial in multi-homed homenets. >>>=20 >>> the intention is to propagate the SAS/DAS policy given with = draft-ietf-6man-addr-select-opt, >>> and more specific routes learn on the border, combined with source = address dependent forwarding. >>> as well as rule 5.5 of 6724. >> This will work when every access router is a DHCP server, right? What = if no DHCP or DHCP-relay? Do we generate this option out of routing = information? Or some other zero-config magic? >=20 > I don't think there is any intention of creating SAS/DAS policy on the = fly. I was only thinking of passing that along to hosts. > the homenet will using SADR ensure that BCP38 rules are satisfied. = nothing more. >=20 > I'm not sure what you mean by the DHCP question. DHCP has an option to = pass SAS/DAS policy to hosts. I'm not suggesting DHCP is used to = propagate that information around between routers in the home net. >=20 >>> that's in solution space though. there is already a reference to the = multihoming-without-ipv6nat document. >>>=20 >>> do you have ideas of anything else we should add to the architecture = document? >> Maybe it is my reservations on the current suggested solutions. I = don't understand why we don't make use of ND. Then, access routers can = provide whatever they wish, from whatever source and the host can ignore = or take some benefits. >=20 > again I don't quite understand what you mean. which protocol is used = to convey network information to the hosts doesn't much matter in my = view... >=20 > cheers, > Ole From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Wed Mar 20 01:50:04 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E7421F8B0B for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 01:50:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.267 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.267 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.346, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QYU0FJldUJEz for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 01:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x235.google.com (mail-wi0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7368621F8B11 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 01:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id hm6so1467813wib.14 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 01:50:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent :mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QNZdT4pAmjrRoJ3Bu1hRY/bbkhT36zrUrshbwAeC86Y=; b=I8dD0qKtjfLJhqWtgKEWUbNVMVpsIl/eXqa7HMo8G3nnEqfd0H15xVr/tPnO0sBmPb wdL1ciS+dWT0nSXFmC8K/IYfM29UlOM1ChOn1gMX5XNnLpo2jLyJ5BXZ+aF7GpjhQtA5 IgP2hlNIMLg5gJjHvglDuqmmF4WNjsjOwHdV3JHkLWTJQLT78jcCcolyOc6wuEt6Hbe8 t/yY2axFDQZlQGgkfxsVJjY8r37PptuKhHXDpCpLmimLY12EtxojLUNmv21HG4KI1XXl kOjU5tBWYGKZ1EGFSkcG3qk9zNt5WBDh5Sl04+VinZRZtAGj5qLK3BNw7+vNCzB9Jbse Y6qQ== X-Received: by 10.194.176.165 with SMTP id cj5mr2878109wjc.37.1363769400844; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 01:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.64] (host-2-102-218-109.as13285.net. [2.102.218.109]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j4sm5449453wiz.10.2013.03.20.01.49.59 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Mar 2013 01:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5149783F.3070605@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 08:50:07 +0000 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Thomas References: <512FD5A2.4020109@mtcc.com> <5140DB26.70104@mtcc.com> <9C88C455-BB34-4FDA-8BA7-FA19A8E38149@fugue.com> <51418DA7.3090804@gmail.com> <5148CCF0.8040905@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <5148CCF0.8040905@mtcc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tim Chown , Ted Lemon , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] global vs. local naming X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 08:50:04 -0000 On 19/03/2013 20:39, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 03/14/2013 01:43 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 13/03/2013 20:54, Ted Lemon wrote: >>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:01 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >>>> All of this is lacking in section 3.7. If I were a contractor using >>>> this "architecture" >>>> I wouldn't know what to build. >>> The architecture document acts as a basis for the work that you, as a >>> contractor, would build from. You can't build from an architecture >>> document, unless you are a lot smarter than we are. >> OK, but that doesn't mean that the *architecture* should punt on >> principles >> of the namespace. >> >> I'll put down a marker: local namespaces are ambiguous and therefore >> should >> not be part of an architecture. > > I agree. > >> However, there is a way to reconcile this >> with pragmatic use of .local - stipulate that when a global name is >> needed >> for a local resource, it is .local... >> >> That requires some namespace knitting but it is architecturally clean. >> > If you had a place to hook into the global namespace, why ever use .local > at all? No particular need, but since .local is out there already, it seems harmless. Brian From russw@riw.us Wed Mar 20 05:47:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C42F21F8F78 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 05:47:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EiZqoRGCwLBZ for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 05:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from da31.namelessnet.net (da31.namelessnet.net [74.124.205.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB5B721F8C9E for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 05:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cpe-098-122-147-095.nc.res.rr.com ([98.122.147.95] helo=[192.168.100.75]) by da31.namelessnet.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UIIQZ-0004aj-6y for homenet@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 05:47:35 -0700 Message-ID: <5149AFEC.2020009@riw.us> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 08:47:40 -0400 From: Russ White User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130307 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED6C6@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5141F140.2070508@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6ED79F@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142444E.10105@mtcc.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE46B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5142D736.1090008@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE603@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <51430A9A.7070005@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE696@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF0F6EE696@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Seems clean. You should still use an Antivirus Scanner Subject: Re: [homenet] Next steps for draft-behringer-homenet-trust-bootstrap? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 12:47:36 -0000 >>> Before we dive into the solution space, Brian, do you agree that the >> framework draft should include this requirement? >> >> Yes, but I think that simplicity of deployment and management is part of the >> requirement. > > Absolutely agree! +1 One thing to think about --what if we just assumed some sort of layer 2 overlay used _only_ for control traffic among all the devices on the network --or a layer 3 multicast group that was "location specific," in some way? A lot of the problems we seem to have here revolve around coordinating what device is doing what, what services are available, where the edges are, etc. Maybe if we could figure out a single control channel for all devices on the network, whether it's by tagging on to the routing protocol, or by setting up a well known local multicast group, or by setting up a layer 2 "control channel," or even an "out of band bluetooth control channel," or whatever, we could make progress using the existence of a such a control channel as an underlying assumption? Russ From ot@cisco.com Wed Mar 20 15:38:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13E8021F853A for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:38:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hucNul2UB9Bl for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.140]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F011221F84E0 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:38:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2161; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1363819126; x=1365028726; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=/S5lLAE0eRE1JwJ+PkpdO/lWAlMHew/zf+1wo38U4co=; b=V/pV4po6vAtP1mOB8Q7svMArO4IDpkveNuXxfahtoyPRMwui95dA8IWt StD4QQ5TLhhaXw4GXipRth9mbFvsnA7Ko7DHLVnOwy8be/aQ0nc4g7PQJ BS8yFbkAUMTTeSrLnhJgY+d1CPjFQi0omM7jGv1FPEXxg9Wh2co1tDkQp s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAFAF85SlGQ/khN/2dsb2JhbABExS+BUhZ0giQBAQECAQEdHTIKAwULCxI0SQ4GHBKHcwYMwlSOXDMHgl9hA5ZgkQKDCzs X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,880,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="152018123" Received: from ams-core-4.cisco.com ([144.254.72.77]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Mar 2013 22:38:44 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-103-185.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-103-185.cisco.com [10.61.103.185]) by ams-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2KMcg7j019728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:38:44 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 23:38:42 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7504C33C-57D8-4A3C-8088-B7CA91D335DB@cisco.com> References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <9B416DC5-805B-4996-B733-B09158AE1E7C@cisco.com> <38688CA2-D731-44C2-A3B1-7077D66B28CC@cisco.com> To: Teco Boot X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:38:47 -0000 Teco, > Still I am puzzled how we can support multiple provisioning domains = with multi-addressed hosts in a homenet. May I reference to the = discussion in mif? > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-mif-1.pdf=20 >=20 > For providing information on provisioning domains, we might look into = DHCP _and_ ND. I think both can and should be supported. I think one of = the problems is how to merge or multiplex information from/for these = provisioning domains. Has DHCP a kind of ProvisioningDomain_ID on each = (serf of) data element(s)? On SAS/DAS policy, how to create such = automatically in network elements? If we can't on the fly, it might be = irrelevant for homenet. unmanaged and policy are at different ends of the scale. I don't know = how you can do anything automatic with that. in the homenet prototype I was talking about we implemented = draft-bhandari-dhc-class-based-prefix-04. where we attached a "colour" to each address prefix. this could then be = used as a handle for SAS/DAS or for the application. I don't think the homenet should get into the "policy" part of this, but = rather just provide some simple tools/infrastructure. > I agree SADR is a major part of the right solution. Source address = indicates the provision domain, at least for IPv6. Hosts need to be = updated and mif should take the lead here. But mif only can take the job = if the network supports multiple provisioning domains well, e.g. SADR. = Updated hosts need SADR as well.=20 I've always seen SADR as a network function. hosts would do RFC6724. there would be some gain in being able to signal hosts with routing = information. not sure what that should be, unless we would just have = hosts participate in the IGP. > And of course the legacy stuff is out there. >=20 > Re-reading sections on multihoming (3.2.4, also 3.4.4), there is = enough room for solution space. I would expect some more guidelines form = an architecture, but now there are no constrains on what we may work = out. That's fine. >=20 > May I suggest to add MPTCP (RFC 6824) at bottom of 3.2.4? agree. cheers, Ole From teco@inf-net.nl Wed Mar 20 22:51:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B43D021F8F83 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:51:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.985 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.985 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JVlWXc7Xg3xI for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bk0-x22d.google.com (mail-bk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4008:c01::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC3D21F8B84 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-bk0-f45.google.com with SMTP id i18so1237953bkv.32 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:51:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=dIZUDUxa1jm0KU5JRvu+MteBG1SI+fBJcpP+AJjIv9s=; b=QCq5E4st+PjCZrRPO3IahdJUc7yHPOXSEnnI0Q3GYQZl7n0rOmhBh6POJ9coclwXZN Yv5gpQhoXgE9wojGj8V8SXwkCBM1myaksZwWSmimWLJKGfpJlyecbkoHTKTEe4eBZ1r8 13L9m1+YBx+r92dx9xKFx2hjvPGTmgckkO919Ztm+X3plj0otfbOG4Vyt690ufOUnyF+ yTddEavUEGFbipDot5b1j3yzA6w6aeUrgoDFT134jM15J3p8oAz1QzOshHDpjjsTovSR QwqFe6eJu0uYqz7wpLJ72R+sDUxHSy4HQiqEvCPqg9pJa+9GactrLpsMA32dQ1wkigd/ SJ2A== X-Received: by 10.205.77.138 with SMTP id zi10mr12216833bkb.121.1363845100253; Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.87.16.139] ([88.128.80.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id io13sm1049698bkc.15.2013.03.20.22.51.37 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: <7504C33C-57D8-4A3C-8088-B7CA91D335DB@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 06:51:34 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <9B416DC5-805B-4996-B733-B09158AE1E7C@cisco.com> <38688CA2-D731-44C2-A3B1-7077D66B28CC@cisco.com> <7504C33C-57D8-4A3C-8088-B7CA91D335DB@cisco.com> To: Ole Troan , Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn3tdwfXKvHfBjN6ifRzAgivk0IyErHxGctXll3Q2w5gveFNXlp+rHbdUpI7LcquG6ZE1jP Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 05:51:43 -0000 Hi Ole, Op 20 mrt. 2013, om 23:38 heeft Ole Troan het volgende = geschreven: > Teco, >=20 >> Still I am puzzled how we can support multiple provisioning domains = with multi-addressed hosts in a homenet. May I reference to the = discussion in mif? >> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/86/slides/slides-86-mif-1.pdf=20 >>=20 >> For providing information on provisioning domains, we might look into = DHCP _and_ ND. I think both can and should be supported. I think one of = the problems is how to merge or multiplex information from/for these = provisioning domains. Has DHCP a kind of ProvisioningDomain_ID on each = (serf of) data element(s)? On SAS/DAS policy, how to create such = automatically in network elements? If we can't on the fly, it might be = irrelevant for homenet. >=20 > unmanaged and policy are at different ends of the scale. I don't know = how you can do anything automatic with that. So we face a problem here... That's why I think it is a bad idea to merge information from different = provisioning domains into a single service. Multiplexing looks better, = then policies from provisioning domains can be transferred to the mif = hosts without mangling. That brings me to the concept that provisioning domains are identified = by (IPv6) prefixes and each prefix has its own configuration channel, = either DHCP or ND. With BRDP, my proposal is that the ND BRDP "border prefix" or "provision = domain ID" is also the DHCP server address, so aware mif hosts can get = policies from it. >=20 > in the homenet prototype I was talking about we implemented = draft-bhandari-dhc-class-based-prefix-04. > where we attached a "colour" to each address prefix. this could then = be used as a handle for SAS/DAS or for the application. OK, I missed this. I have my doubts on the proposed class encoding / = coloring scheme. > I don't think the homenet should get into the "policy" part of this, = but rather just provide some simple tools/infrastructure. Hmm. I also prefer simple tools/infrastructure. But let's try to solve some = problems, or at least we shall not block solving later on. >=20 >> I agree SADR is a major part of the right solution. Source address = indicates the provision domain, at least for IPv6. Hosts need to be = updated and mif should take the lead here. But mif only can take the job = if the network supports multiple provisioning domains well, e.g. SADR. = Updated hosts need SADR as well.=20 >=20 > I've always seen SADR as a network function. hosts would do RFC6724. SADR on hosts is used quite often, where redundant links are in place. >=20 > there would be some gain in being able to signal hosts with routing = information. not sure what that should be, unless we would just have = hosts participate in the IGP. The IP stack of many host operating systems are able to route. So if we = implement SADR on routers, hosts will have the code also one day. I'm not so comfortable on having hosts running the routing deamon. That's why I came on the BRDP based routing idea, where all nodes in the = edge network act equivalent: route the packets with destinations = external to the edge network to the right border router. Works with all = routing protocols. Works for mif hosts. Only the = Prefix_to_BorderRouter_table is needed, with some SADR forwarding logic. Back to the draft-ietf-homenet-arch WGLC: this provisioning domain topic = is not addresses very well. Question is if we will address it, hand it = over to mif, or cooperate where we focus on the (plug&play) network part = and mif takes the hosts. @Ted: can you guide us here? Teco From ot@cisco.com Thu Mar 21 01:13:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD6421F8F08 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 01:13:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vcBim1Ftr0bX for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 01:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7C421F8F0B for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 01:13:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1594; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1363853597; x=1365063197; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=t+hjhLpH6LF1yJINORsLtP30iWKl5LflqsxqWf3zHEI=; b=geBgBpOMNR1HT05eNCkD+HV+kNUo/OIkBdp/fJAOj8CIHd442aA35Zzd em2zgcDMGzz0ArsiFLQjlQVNAXP7ZTTMSbTUzikntLzdkAk+ThzWtsRQY ml79q1DX94ub6duJCM6ESaGglIz4e8eV2HRn+p6m/41UnVUOVy2DbeV8B I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAIvASlGQ/khR/2dsb2JhbABExTuBWBZ0giQBAQEDAR0dPwULC0ZXBi6HcwbCYY5dMweCX2EDlmCRAoMLOw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,884,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="81435687" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.72.81]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Mar 2013 08:13:13 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-96-130.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-96-130.cisco.com [10.61.96.130]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r2L8DDFN026781 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Mar 2013 08:13:13 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 09:13:12 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <9B416DC5-805B-4996-B733-B09158AE1E7C@cisco.com> <38688CA2-D731-44C2-A3B1-7077D66B28CC@cisco.com> <7504C33C-57D8-4A3C-8088-B7CA91D335DB@cisco.com> To: Teco Boot X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Ted Lemon Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 08:13:24 -0000 Teco, [...] >> I don't think the homenet should get into the "policy" part of this, = but rather just provide some simple tools/infrastructure. >=20 > Hmm. > I also prefer simple tools/infrastructure. But let's try to solve some = problems, or at least we shall not block solving later on. are the problems clearly understood at this point? written down? >>> I agree SADR is a major part of the right solution. Source address = indicates the provision domain, at least for IPv6. Hosts need to be = updated and mif should take the lead here. But mif only can take the job = if the network supports multiple provisioning domains well, e.g. SADR. = Updated hosts need SADR as well.=20 >>=20 >> I've always seen SADR as a network function. hosts would do RFC6724. >=20 > SADR on hosts is used quite often, where redundant links are in place. that's not SADR. SADR is about _forwarding_ of packets. [...] > Back to the draft-ietf-homenet-arch WGLC: this provisioning domain = topic is not addresses very well. Question is if we will address it, = hand it over to mif, or cooperate where we focus on the (plug&play) = network part and mif takes the hosts. I think we have a fair idea of how to deal with the home network being = multi-homed. i.e. two or more connections to the Internet. we also have a decent idea of how to deal with multi-homing to = non-congruent networks, see = draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-multihoming-without-ipv6nat-05 I'm not quite sure what problem "multiple provisioning domains" is = trying to solve outwith that. cheers, Ole= From mellon@fugue.com Thu Mar 21 03:46:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8F121F86C4 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 03:46:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17sRkrg4TmgI for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 03:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92AA021F8682 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 03:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.10.20] (c-174-62-147-182.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [174.62.147.182]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C0EEA238031A; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 06:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 06:45:57 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <07BAB2DE-D63D-4513-B8EC-9652EF6394F8@fugue.com> References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <9B416DC5-805B-4996-B733-B09158AE1E7C@cisco.com> <38688CA2-D731-44C2-A3B1-7077D66B28CC@cisco.com> <7504C33C-57D8-4A3C-8088-B7CA91D335DB@cisco.com> To: Teco Boot X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) Cc: Ole Troan , homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 10:46:04 -0000 On Mar 21, 2013, at 1:51 AM, Teco Boot wrote: > Back to the draft-ietf-homenet-arch WGLC: this provisioning domain = topic is not addresses very well. Question is if we will address it, = hand it over to mif, or cooperate where we focus on the (plug&play) = network part and mif takes the hosts. > @Ted: can you guide us here? There's a third alternative: help MIF to get it right. The work is = certainly in MIF's charter, and homenet has bitten off a pretty big = chunk, so duplicate work is worth avoiding. At the same time, I think = MIF is in fact crucial to homenet, so if you want to see homenet succeed = it's in your interests to help with the work MIF is doing as well. I'm hearing a lot of useful thinking about the MIF architecture here, = which I would like to see captured in the MIF architecture document. From teco@inf-net.nl Thu Mar 21 12:46:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506C921F8C9B for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:46:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Avz5fdxCfvFj for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-f48.google.com (mail-wg0-f48.google.com [74.125.82.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6FC21F8CA4 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 16so783031wgi.3 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:46:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=t7njtX0LVsxhp9G5OLBzvmwNba6rWcqKh0j601HvV0E=; b=cbzA3N3i4FdPMJyNztdqMEqMJ76l/zOi16jWiFWJiXRHVnH/TNHd5S/ap2joSbGk4M QlFxx2UaHUyZuAL62asdqkf5hTG9aYpndjuqSB9YLXCFA+cMAqtoJHXtDzUw/KHTw7DK l0xjlujj7u6LVccwsR0ZeESFTH/haGtFnVI8yf9sIvD5xRBARIMb0TtoAIcx8KHmXeBy Cknwvo/VtDgy+FEOct6oq8Y5sSxuhOGwsUN2sXFYeYwx5qlozMritHKmBdyIXYXIGCjE 2ae9s3BQdmLOb1Imo46FvADA3fS/f9EM9fKOadwnJAxCbl6Xy89tl/JJIcHOnap/PE+9 oA6w== X-Received: by 10.180.84.165 with SMTP id a5mr7139088wiz.6.1363895204899; Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.175.173.46] (524A14A4.cm-4-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl. [82.74.20.164]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k5sm7410769wiy.5.2013.03.21.12.46.43 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\)) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 20:46:41 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <52000F40-7546-44CC-9B8B-76B82DF85F93@inf-net.nl> References: <53F00E5CD8B2E34C81C0C89EB0B4FE73104F65F1@wds-exc1.okna.nominet.org.uk> <9B416DC5-805B-4996-B733-B09158AE1E7C@cisco.com> <38688CA2-D731-44C2-A3B1-7077D66B28CC@cisco.com> <7504C33C-57D8-4A3C-8088-B7CA91D335DB@cisco.com> To: Ole Troan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmKTTUrYewlBfR7dvpWYM27dVIk5d4uQ6QV3B9MOHwfCiAhUSG6T182vGtdOr+e4KWkBzQw Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Ted Lemon Subject: Re: [homenet] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-arch-07 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:46:56 -0000 Hi Ole, Op 21 mrt. 2013, om 09:13 heeft Ole Troan het volgende = geschreven: > Teco, >=20 > [...] >=20 >>> I don't think the homenet should get into the "policy" part of this, = but rather just provide some simple tools/infrastructure. >>=20 >> Hmm. >> I also prefer simple tools/infrastructure. But let's try to solve = some problems, or at least we shall not block solving later on. >=20 > are the problems clearly understood at this point? > written down? We have RFC6418 and RFC4477. Maybe we need to write down the multiple DHCP server problem (homenet = with set of CPE devices attach to different provides, each with = "incompatible" DHCP info). v6ops-ipv6-multihoming-without-ipv6nat-05 = points towards the problem, section 7.3. Policy collision = consideration. However, in the abstract it says: ... We conclude that DHCPv6 based solutions are suitable to solve the multihoming issues, described in this document, while NPTv6 may be required as an intermediate solution. May I say I think DHCPv6 and NPTv6 don't fix the problems? Maybe they = make live even harder for right shaped MIF hosts. >>>> I agree SADR is a major part of the right solution. Source address = indicates the provision domain, at least for IPv6. Hosts need to be = updated and mif should take the lead here. But mif only can take the job = if the network supports multiple provisioning domains well, e.g. SADR. = Updated hosts need SADR as well.=20 >>>=20 >>> I've always seen SADR as a network function. hosts would do RFC6724. >>=20 >> SADR on hosts is used quite often, where redundant links are in = place. >=20 > that's not SADR. SADR is about _forwarding_ of packets. The troan-homenet-sadr is written for routers. It applies to hosts with = multiple interfaces or single interface with multiple next-hop routers = as well: same problem, can use same solution. For both cases, RFC6724 = hosts need a little luck to make best guesses. So for me, Source Address Dependent Routing (SADR) and source = address-based routing (out of multihoming-without-ipv6nat-05) are two = names for same animal. > [...] >=20 >> Back to the draft-ietf-homenet-arch WGLC: this provisioning domain = topic is not addresses very well. Question is if we will address it, = hand it over to mif, or cooperate where we focus on the (plug&play) = network part and mif takes the hosts. >=20 > I think we have a fair idea of how to deal with the home network being = multi-homed. i.e. two or more connections to the Internet. Yes, we can deal with routing: do something with source address. > we also have a decent idea of how to deal with multi-homing to = non-congruent networks, see = draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-multihoming-without-ipv6nat-05 > I'm not quite sure what problem "multiple provisioning domains" is = trying to solve outwith that. I don't think we decided how to deal with disjunct config options = (DHCPv6 or learned via other means), on how we can relay this info over = a homenet to a MIF host, without losing any functionality. draft-boot-homenet-brdp-00 deals with it. It provides MIF hosts pointers = to the border router, where for each provisioning domain there is a = prefix and a border router with an address within that prefix. So an = aware host can get all it wants to know. Teco From mike@mtcc.com Fri Mar 29 11:35:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C435D21F915B for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:35:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jcQcEXGVXb2S for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F8721F90B3 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2TIZkom016540 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:35:47 -0700 Message-ID: <5155DF02.4060309@mtcc.com> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:35:46 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=331; t=1364582147; x=1365446147; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20elaboration=20on=20mdns=20difficulties |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22=22=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=qGZ5n46jSGtAIYJT0mUaUdCrZkTaSu0RGvR6uBy+x6c=; b=q7qC0GUVfTsn/82iDkIDLIjHSgy0Ta9U/E+/pDZePny+hRG7Wkx+7C0EG2 EgLO/aVGlF+9QJzF2MwRFAPq6R7xa5ayOzAUT9Ngp0v4Uv+aJ/K9OGMezipf M6HQDfp8dFXy0ubiKa9zlYcBH/n64GRKbpQuk2GXk43p4Z27uPkPg=; Authentication-Results: mtcc.com; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Subject: [homenet] elaboration on mdns difficulties X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 18:35:48 -0000 In the implementation slot there was a line item and a very brief description of the difficulties they were having with mdns. I don't know which drafts they were dealing with (I don't recall the slides mentioning it), so it's sort of a mystery to me about what they were seeing. Can somebody please elaborate more? Mike From gettysjim@gmail.com Fri Mar 29 12:26:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F2321F8EAC for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:26:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.031 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.031 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.720, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sXqcjEaMRddW for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x231.google.com (mail-qc0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3E221F8E87 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id u28so334627qcs.22 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:26:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=zvHZVHhteQtYirElP5glunVH+ESgcCe1vkV7tkKESPI=; b=RzEdHxP90mCLtiQOrxw2rUcml2tdkHZwy/LtD/5JF+6VpIHA9xnzZ2B3SZtjjS46Br DDMXw00yVQB/83t4aUmtrbGXK/HX01orCSfJYupl7SvzKY/bijOsD4bK97WKm1eVL72R o7KFAVI/ke58zwGD8sX8K9KTpFQBYq/Sl2PgQoIyKCofqKUsCwXu28ZDsVVTgeafXih7 mRoCDGpXJTzFeSuo1TdCdIZp3aDOZEI36ZWYnXPBgyEwCrnJckTDysFqfZlkRnJIQVHT ULr7BVtTBYOlDy/jk8wCIIZC5YOIoxAf8uqs+zgaL/QTVxFtZXUp67uaAtIOpqAQ4wxr mRtg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.49.12.194 with SMTP id a2mr5627836qec.11.1364585205882; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.49.98.35 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 12:26:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5155DF02.4060309@mtcc.com> References: <5155DF02.4060309@mtcc.com> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:26:45 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Ry8y6nsnAWJFWwXzlM7NmzEmjE4 Message-ID: From: Jim Gettys To: Michael Thomas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6787d276839404d91540bb Cc: "" Subject: Re: [homenet] elaboration on mdns difficulties X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 19:26:47 -0000 --047d7b6787d276839404d91540bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > In the implementation slot there was a line item and a very brief > description of the difficulties they were having with mdns. I don't > know which drafts they were dealing with (I don't recall the slides > mentioning it), so it's sort of a mystery to me about what they were > seeing. > > Can somebody please elaborate more? > There are really two independent issues: 1) making mdns safe for a routed environment. Avahi (the common open source mdns implementation) is happy to bridge/vorward between networks, but right now, the current implementation/protocol has issues with topologies with loops. So we have problems in CeroWrt today when running 3 routers in a mesh caused by loops. 2) bridging mdns properly to the global dns name space: you really don't want grandma to be handing out .local addresses when that can/should be avoided (and I guarantee that typing IPv6 literal addresses is something we really all must avoid. I think both problems are soluble, but believe we should demonstrate this by running code rather than hand waving. And written spec's may be helpful, but running code is much more important, I believe. - Jim > > > ______________________________**_________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/homenet > --047d7b6787d276839404d91540bb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri= , Mar 29, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:=
In the implementation slot there was a line item and a ver= y brief
description of the difficulties they were having with mdns. I don't
know which drafts they were dealing with (I don't recall the slides
mentioning it), so it's sort of a mystery to me about what they were seeing.

Can somebody please elaborate more?
=A0
There are really two independent issues:

=A0
1) making mdns safe for a routed environment. =A0Avahi (the common op= en source mdns implementation) is happy to bridge/vorward between networks,= but right now, the current implementation/protocol has issues with topolog= ies with loops. =A0So we have problems in CeroWrt today when running 3 rout= ers in a mesh caused by loops.
2) bridging mdns properly to the global dns name space: you really don= 't want grandma to be handing out .local addresses when that can/should= be avoided (and I guarantee that typing IPv6 literal addresses is somethin= g we really all must avoid.

I think both problems are soluble, but believe we shoul= d demonstrate this by running code rather than hand waving.
=A0And written spec&= #39;s may be helpful, but running code is much more important, I believe.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 - Jim
=


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