From internet-drafts@ietf.org Thu Aug 1 09:23:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62EC611E812F; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:23:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.593 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.593 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jbGeOm6ECeyK; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2073911E8122; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:23:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.60p1 Message-ID: <20130801162310.6036.74768.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 09:23:10 -0700 Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-arch-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 16:23:11 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Home Networking Working Group of the IETF. Title : Home Networking Architecture for IPv6 Author(s) : Tim Chown Jari Arkko Anders Brandt Ole Troan Jason Weil Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-arch-10.txt Pages : 48 Date : 2013-08-01 Abstract: This text describes evolving networking technology within increasingly large residential home networks. The goal of this document is to define a general architecture for IPv6-based home networking, describing the associated principles, considerations and requirements. The text briefly highlights specific implications of the introduction of IPv6 for home networking, discusses the elements of the architecture, and suggests how standard IPv6 mechanisms and addressing can be employed in home networking. The architecture describes the need for specific protocol extensions for certain additional functionality. It is assumed that the IPv6 home network is not actively managed, and runs as an IPv6-only or dual-stack network. There are no recommendations in this text for the IPv4 part of the network. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-arch There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-arch-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-homenet-arch-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Fri Aug 2 02:16:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7438011E81A9 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2013 02:16:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3b2HiLBF2N2s for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2013 02:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26EB821F9C81 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2013 02:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r729G4ED002117 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2013 10:16:04 +0100 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk r729G4ED002117 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=201304; t=1375434964; bh=Egcp5pmbD+ZEOdAFVXUhMP+m/Sc=; h=From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=STBuT+eiPIIEwyhuF1EI5JZtypbnMDUyUpzyKg/zG+8XnJ+mbxYFyeieHKztXReqb ByGGWn05VMFzLzihoH4tlh6NwlRv/3/hRpULaxexMoOP6XaBzC94bogKXjxPhiN85F LaI7u8d1jOcZIt0eM1wg23oQT2amR6/lZeWqcdYc= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id p71AG40544512369ov ret-id none; Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:16:04 +0100 Received: from [IPv6:2001:df8::16:5cb2:8028:33ac:a82a] ([IPv6:2001:df8:0:16:5cb2:8028:33ac:a82a]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r729FwvK008460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2013 10:15:58 +0100 From: Tim Chown Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_486151A4-4CA5-47CF-A5A9-79992C52C5F0" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 10:15:57 +0100 References: <20130801162310.6036.74768.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20130801162310.6036.74768.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: sid=p71AG3054451236900; tid=p71AG40544512369ov; client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=1:0; fails=0 X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: r729G4ED002117 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Subject: Re: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-arch-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 09:16:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_486151A4-4CA5-47CF-A5A9-79992C52C5F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Just to note that the update from -09 to -10 is purely to address AD = review comments, which were largely points of clarification in the text. These can be seen reasonably clearly from the diff page at = http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-homenet-arch-10.txt. Tim On 1 Aug 2013, at 17:23, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the Home Networking Working Group of the = IETF. >=20 > Title : Home Networking Architecture for IPv6 > Author(s) : Tim Chown > Jari Arkko > Anders Brandt > Ole Troan > Jason Weil > Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-arch-10.txt > Pages : 48 > Date : 2013-08-01 >=20 > Abstract: > This text describes evolving networking technology within > increasingly large residential home networks. The goal of this > document is to define a general architecture for IPv6-based home > networking, describing the associated principles, considerations and > requirements. The text briefly highlights specific implications of > the introduction of IPv6 for home networking, discusses the elements > of the architecture, and suggests how standard IPv6 mechanisms and > addressing can be employed in home networking. The architecture > describes the need for specific protocol extensions for certain > additional functionality. It is assumed that the IPv6 home network > is not actively managed, and runs as an IPv6-only or dual-stack > network. There are no recommendations in this text for the IPv4 = part > of the network. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-arch >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-arch-10 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-homenet-arch-10 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_486151A4-4CA5-47CF-A5A9-79992C52C5F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-homenet-arch-10.txt= .

Tim

On 1 Aug 2013, at = 17:23, internet-drafts@ietf.org = wrote:


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line = Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Home = Networking Working Group of the IETF.

Title =           : Home = Networking Architecture for IPv6
Author(s) =       : Tim Chown
=             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;Jari Arkko
=             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;Anders Brandt
=             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;Ole Troan
=             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;Jason Weil
= Filename        : = draft-ietf-homenet-arch-10.txt
Pages =           : = 48
= Date =            : = 2013-08-01

Abstract:
  This text describes evolving = networking technology within
  increasingly large = residential home networks.  The goal of this
=   document is to define a general architecture for IPv6-based = home
  networking, describing the associated principles, = considerations and
  requirements.  The text briefly = highlights specific implications of
  the introduction of = IPv6 for home networking, discusses the elements
  of the = architecture, and suggests how standard IPv6 mechanisms and
=   addressing can be employed in home networking.  The = architecture
  describes the need for specific protocol = extensions for certain
  additional functionality. =  It is assumed that the IPv6 home network
  is not = actively managed, and runs as an IPv6-only or dual-stack
=   network.  There are no recommendations in this text for = the IPv4 part
  of the network.


The IETF = datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://= datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-arch

There's also = a htmlized version available = at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-arch-10

A = diff from the previous version is available = at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-homenet-arch-10

= --Apple-Mail=_486151A4-4CA5-47CF-A5A9-79992C52C5F0-- From teco@inf-net.nl Sat Aug 3 06:42:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDBC521F9D5D for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 06:42:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TmWzPIIrs-Zk for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 06:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ea0-f178.google.com (mail-ea0-f178.google.com [209.85.215.178]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F414821F9D33 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 06:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ea0-f178.google.com with SMTP id a15so807197eae.9 for ; Sat, 03 Aug 2013 06:42:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=SO/f5JaVMZlsB4+cyVquapce2pby2/Xs5NAOfvPr9j0=; b=gnQA9LjxExP44ZATBynw10xtmZ8gPQ6dXKt0EQITjbJre0Mt78/vUTdXsQbjh7mgHs ogvb223RJOL1wlFjVYmQ6ZejFmQ4cvopoaaufLsK2y0M74trSFLj1bpz/yAVwC6ySw77 ylCXRHCMOMEPM81ASPNQN5XOiJy68QYTZaSDTtvIJRB+2ZSJYI1HlA3rw3MKtPuDXxUh CsAYpUtte2bVXkVfhvg9imFRWlkE/8XnK8JILMB3EXSmyRlBkbaL+A6poeOM0i0mw1Vc Jsf+mRrukXgDYQx3vun2TF/FEUI7NSvusURp5JuneAIvAy34nmmGhxvLvRTlBbH5t5Th 9j6A== X-Received: by 10.14.103.129 with SMTP id f1mr128903eeg.114.1375537367231; Sat, 03 Aug 2013 06:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.175.173.95] (524A14A4.cm-4-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl. [82.74.20.164]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id p49sm19490980eeu.2.2013.08.03.06.42.45 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 03 Aug 2013 06:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: <20130729143209.GL901145@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2013 15:42:44 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6856.1375095717@sandelman.ca> <10806.1375097238@sandelman.ca> <20130729143209.GL901145@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> To: David Lamparter , Pierre PFISTER X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmEN6lXBiCi3MctXMjjZiKwzRqdHY469rlXGD0DWuOyw04ax0iFOLNCDCRDfOq3T2jlpXDA Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] source routing requirements for routing protocols X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2013 13:42:54 -0000 I tested SADR with Linux IPv6_SUBTREES, with disappointing outcome. I posted my results on devnet, = http://www.spinics.net/lists/netdev/msg245231.html Can you verify? I included the posting for convenience. Teco Op 2 aug. 2013, om 12:15 heeft Teco Boot het volgende = geschreven: > For destination & source address routing, I prefer the single routing = table approach with IPV6_SUBTREES over the multiple tables with ip rules = approach. > Can some take a look at my findings? It looks broken. It seems the = source address check in route cache is missing. >=20 > Teco >=20 >=20 > Output: > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > this is my system: > Linux ubuntu 3.8.0-25-generic #37-Ubuntu SMP Thu Jun 6 20:47:30 UTC = 2013 i686 i686 i686 GNU/Linux > CONFIG_IPV6_SUBTREES=3Dy > ... clean up for our experiment > ... add a link-local > ... add default > ... add some source address specific defaults > =3D=3D=3D=3D> now I have this routing table > default from 2001:db8:10::/48 via fe80::10 dev eth0 metric 1024=20 > default from 2001:db8:11::/48 via fe80::11 dev eth0 metric 1024=20 > default from 2001:db8:12::/48 via fe80::12 dev eth0 metric 1024=20 > fe80::1 dev eth0 proto kernel metric 256=20 > default via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 1024=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D> show route to same destination > 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:10::1 via fe80::10 dev eth0 metric 0 \ = cache=20 > 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:11::1 via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ = cache=20 > 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:12::1 via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ = cache=20 > 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:1::1 via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ = cache=20 > 2001:db8:babe::1 from :: via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ cache=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D> show route to different destinations > 2001:db8:cafe::10 from 2001:db8:10::1 via fe80::10 dev eth0 metric 0 = \ cache=20 > 2001:db8:cafe::11 from 2001:db8:11::1 via fe80::11 dev eth0 metric 0 = \ cache=20 > 2001:db8:cafe::12 from 2001:db8:12::1 via fe80::12 dev eth0 metric 0 = \ cache=20 > 2001:db8:cafe::21 from 2001:db8:1::1 via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ = cache=20 > 2001:db8:cafe::22 from :: via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ cache=20= > =3D=3D=3D=3D> now the route cache is > 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:10::/48 via fe80::10 dev eth0 metric 0 = \ cache=20 > 2001:db8:babe::1 via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ cache=20 > 2001:db8:cafe::10 from 2001:db8:10::/48 via fe80::10 dev eth0 metric = 0 \ cache=20 > 2001:db8:cafe::11 from 2001:db8:11::/48 via fe80::11 dev eth0 metric = 0 \ cache=20 > 2001:db8:cafe::12 from 2001:db8:12::/48 via fe80::12 dev eth0 metric = 0 \ cache=20 > 2001:db8:cafe::21 via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ cache=20 > 2001:db8:cafe::22 via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ cache=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > My script: > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > #!/bin/sh >=20 > echo "this is my system:"=20 > uname -a > grep IPV6_SUBTREES /boot/config-3.8.0-25-generic >=20 > echo ... clean up for our experiment > ip -6 address flush dev eth0 > ip -6 route flush table all >=20 > echo ... add a link-local > ip address add fe80::1 dev eth0 >=20 > echo ... add default > ip -6 route add default via fe80::ff dev eth0 >=20 > echo ... add some source address specific defaults > ip -6 route add default from 2001:db8:10::/48 via fe80::10 dev eth0 > ip -6 route add default from 2001:db8:11::/48 via fe80::11 dev eth0 > ip -6 route add default from 2001:db8:12::/48 via fe80::12 dev eth0 >=20 > echo -n "=3D=3D=3D=3D> " > echo now I have this routing table > ip -6 -o route show table main >=20 > echo -n "=3D=3D=3D=3D> " > echo show route to same destination > ip -6 -o route get 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:10::1 > ip -6 -o route get 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:11::1 > ip -6 -o route get 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:12::1 > ip -6 -o route get 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:1::1 > ip -6 -o route get 2001:db8:babe::1 >=20 > echo -n "=3D=3D=3D=3D> " > echo show route to different destinations > ip -6 -o route get 2001:db8:cafe::10 from 2001:db8:10::1 > ip -6 -o route get 2001:db8:cafe::11 from 2001:db8:11::1 > ip -6 -o route get 2001:db8:cafe::12 from 2001:db8:12::1 > ip -6 -o route get 2001:db8:cafe::21 from 2001:db8:1::1 > ip -6 -o route get 2001:db8:cafe::22 > echo -n "=3D=3D=3D=3D> " > echo now the route cache is > ip -6 -o route show cache >=20 >=20 >=20 Op 29 jul. 2013, om 16:32 heeft David Lamparter het = volgende geschreven: > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 03:35:41PM +0200, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Michael Richardson >> wrote: >>=20 >>> 1) if we are going to introduce a new route to deal with the >>> conflict, then the routing protocol must be able to express >>> what might appear to be multiple routes to the same dest/prefix. >>>=20 >>=20 >> I believe the routes only need to be local and do not need to appear = on the >> wire and in the routing protocol (in fact, they don't even need to be >> stored locally; the draft claims that they can be recalculated when = adding >> / removing real routes from the FIB). >>=20 >> As regards the reason for existence of the routes themselves, David >> Lamparter tells me that he has in fact gotten the Linux IPv6 source = routing >> code (the mythical CONFIG_IPV6_SUBTREES?) to work on 3.8. Attempting = to CC >> a randomly-found email address I have for him so he can comment = directly. >> David? >=20 > (warning: wall of text. skip down to last paragraph for results.) >=20 > I've tested the following setup: >=20 > host A - router > # system: Linux 3.8.3 > # CONFIG_IPV6_SUBTREES=3Dy > # ip utility, iproute2-ss130221 >=20 > # (0) enable ipv6 forwarding (...) >=20 > # (1) set routes >=20 > ip link add name test0 type dummy > ip link add name test1 type dummy > ip link add name test2 type dummy > ip link add name test3 type dummy > ip link set test0 up > ip link set test1 up > ip link set test2 up > ip link set test3 up > ip -6 route add 2001:db8::/32 via fe80::1 dev test0 > ip -6 route add 2001:db8:dead::/48 from 2001:db8:cafe:1::/64 via = fe80::1 dev test1 > ip -6 route add 2001:db8:dead::/48 from 2001:db8:cafe:2::/64 via = fe80::1 dev test2 > ip -6 route add 2001:db8:dead::/48 from 2001:db8:cafe:2::f00d/128 via = fe80::1 dev test3 > ip -6 route add 2001:db8:dead:beef::/64 dev test3 >=20 > # (2) connection to packet source - fix as needed > ip -6 link set veth0 up > ip -6 addr add fe80::1/64 dev veth0 > ip -6 addr add 2001:db8:cafe:0::1/64 dev veth0 > ip -6 addr add 2001:db8:cafe:1::1/64 dev veth0 > ip -6 addr add 2001:db8:cafe:2::1/64 dev veth0 >=20 > # (3) now start 4 tcpdumps/wiresharks/... on test0..3 >=20 >=20 > host B - packet source >=20 > # - interlude: shortcut to virtualise host B, skip if appropriate - > # unshare -n /bin/bash > # you now have a shell in a separate network namespace. now do: > # ip link set lo up > # ip link add name veth0 type veth peer name veth0 netns 1 > # you now have a "veth0" interface on both your host and your network > # namespace shell session. don't forget to set them "up". > # - end interlude - >=20 > # (0) default route over linklocal, persistent over tests > ip -6 route add ::/0 via fe80::1 dev veth0 >=20 > # (1) source 2001:db8:cafe:0::2, does not match sources > ip -6 addr add 2001:db8:cafe:0::2/64 dev veth0 > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8::1 # =3D> test0 on router > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8:dead::1 # =3D> unreachable, no route [*] > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8:dead:beef::1 # =3D> test3 on router > ip -6 addr del 2001:db8:cafe:0::2/64 dev veth0 >=20 > # (2) source 2001:db8:cafe:1::2, matches "test1" source spec > ip -6 addr add 2001:db8:cafe:1::2/64 dev veth0 > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8::1 # =3D> test0 on router > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8:dead::1 # =3D> test1 on router > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8:dead:beef::1 # =3D> test3 on router > ip -6 addr del 2001:db8:cafe:1::2/64 dev veth0 >=20 > # (3) source 2001:db8:cafe:2::2, matches "test1" source spec > ip -6 addr add 2001:db8:cafe:2::2/64 dev veth0 > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8::1 # =3D> test0 on router > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8:dead::1 # =3D> test2 on router > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8:dead:beef::1 # =3D> test3 on router > ip -6 addr del 2001:db8:cafe:2::2/64 dev veth0 >=20 > # (4) source 2001:db8:cafe:2::2, matches more-specific /128 source > ip -6 addr add 2001:db8:cafe:2::f00d/64 dev veth0 > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8::1 # =3D> test0 on router > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8:dead::1 # =3D> test3 on router > ping6 -c 3 2001:db8:dead:beef::1 # =3D> test3 on router > ip -6 addr del 2001:db8:cafe:2::f00d/64 dev veth0 >=20 >=20 > so, for the 2001:db8:dead::1 destination, the following happens: > - source 2001:db8:cafe:0::2 - no source match - icmp unreachable > - source 2001:db8:cafe:1::2 - matches ...1::/64 dev test1 > - source 2001:db8:cafe:2::2 - matches ...2::/64 dev test2 > - source 2001:db8:cafe:2::f00d - matches ...2::f00d/128 dev test3 >=20 >=20 > RESULT (stop skipping here) > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > The non source specific routes keep working as intended. The source > specific routes work as intended, doing a longest-match on the source. > The lookup also is "final", i.e. after not finding a route with a = source > match (=3D> first test case), Linux returns an "unreachable". >=20 > As far as I've been following, this is the desired effect? >=20 > Cheers, >=20 >=20 > -David > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From v6ops@globis.net Sat Aug 3 08:55:21 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C74521F9F84 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 08:55:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29OjSkpx1XOE for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 08:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from globis01.globis.net (RayH-1-pt.tunnel.tserv11.ams1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f14:62e::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD0E21F9F9B for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 08:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473B68700E0; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 17:55:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from globis01.globis.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.globis.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uSQY0csG8SfW; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 17:55:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Rays-iMac-2.local (unknown [192.168.0.3]) (Authenticated sender: Ray.Hunter@globis.net) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1F5178700AC; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 17:55:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <51FD27CE.1070602@globis.net> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2013 17:54:54 +0200 From: Ray Hunter User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.8 (Macintosh/20130427) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pierre PFISTER References: <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF22426@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> <51F93828.1030107@gmail.com> <2F25A799-C7E4-49EC-9D70-A556532466D8@darou.fr> In-Reply-To: <2F25A799-C7E4-49EC-9D70-A556532466D8@darou.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2013 15:55:21 -0000 Pierre PFISTER wrote: > > Le 31 juil. 2013 à 18:15, Alexandru Petrescu a écrit : > >> Le 31/07/2013 17:38, Wes Beebee (wbeebee) a écrit : >>>> If no prefix is found by the longetst-matching on the src address, >>>> will a default be used instead? >>>> Alex >>>>> There is also potentially a whole destination lookup table that¹s >>>>> entirely devoted to the ::/0 source prefix. >>>>> - Wes >>> My understanding is that there IS a default for source address (see >>> the above comment). >> >> Ok. >> >> The default for dst addresses leads to a nexthop. >> >> The default for src addresses leads also to a nexthop? Or to the dst of >> another dst prefix? Or to the nexthop of the default of dst? >> >> It may sound as a rathole discussion but it is fully part of what the >> longest-match algorithm does. >> >> Alex >> > > > > I'm not sure about how it should be done but I can say how Linux seems > to do it. > > * Those affirmation came by looking at the code... That I didn't > wrote. So I cannot be 100% sure * > > Linux uses a tree structure in order to perform the longest prefix > lookup on the destination address first. > The found node (which has the longest prefix for the source address), > CAN have a subtree. > This subtree has the same structure as a regular routing table, but is > used with the source address. > > This means that each node in a routing table has its own source > routing table. There is no > destination lookup first and then a source lookup in a global table. > > --> See fib6_lookup, and fib6_lookup_1 functions > > Now, when you add a route with destination and source prefix, > the node for destination is created (or updated) and, then, > if the source routing prefix length is not null, a subtree is created > (or updated) and > a node with the provided source prefix is inserted. > > --> See fib6_add > > Therefore, for a given node in the main tree, if there is no source > routing (no subtree), the route > is always used. Otherwise, a longest prefix match is performed on the > source address, using the subtree. > If there is no corresponding node for the source (no matching prefix, > where the prefix length can be null), > then, the parent node in the destination routing table is used as > default. > > So, yes, inserting a route for a destination and source prefix will > create an entry for the destination alone > (without source routing). > So the default route, for a source lookup, is basically the last > inserted next-hop for the destination prefix... > Which could create unexpected behaviors. > > > Concerning the previous question, Linux actually has > a RTF_GATEWAY flag. But it doesn't seem to > be used in the routing decision process. I guess it is used by other > protocols that like to have a > concept of "default router". > > > > Pierre OK I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I seem to have read 4 different opinions on how to implement the longest match algorithm for (source,destination) next hop selection. Namely: 1. Two step matching destination first and then using the result to key a longest match lookup on source address (Pierre re Linux code Wed, 31 Jul 2013 19:16:41) 2. Two step matching source first and then using the result to key a longest match lookup on destinationaddress(Wes Mon, 29 Jul 2013 18:52:01 & Wed, 31 Jul 2013 17:01:29 ) 3. Single step longest match with Fuzzy aspects (Alexandru Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:44:27 ) 4. Source-based routing will never work for locally originated packets because source address selection is done after routing. (Lorenzo Mon, 29 Jul 2013 19:41:48) Is there a serious risk here that we may get forwarding loops, or packets dropped by filters due to incorrect egress gateway selection, even though we don't have routing loops, or doesn't it matter that different implementations do different things? -- Regards, RayH From iesg-secretary@ietf.org Sat Aug 3 09:59:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADC721F9A7D; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 09:59:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.491 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.491 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uL+QMqpCnakl; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 09:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9951E21F996A; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 09:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.60p1 Sender: Message-ID: <20130803165901.18120.73565.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2013 09:59:01 -0700 Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: [homenet] Last Call: (Home Networking Architecture for IPv6) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2013 16:59:02 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the Home Networking WG (homenet) to consider the following document: - 'Home Networking Architecture for IPv6' as Informational RFC The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2013-08-17. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This text describes evolving networking technology within increasingly large residential home networks. The goal of this document is to define a general architecture for IPv6-based home networking, describing the associated principles, considerations and requirements. The text briefly highlights specific implications of the introduction of IPv6 for home networking, discusses the elements of the architecture, and suggests how standard IPv6 mechanisms and addressing can be employed in home networking. The architecture describes the need for specific protocol extensions for certain additional functionality. It is assumed that the IPv6 home network is not actively managed, and runs as an IPv6-only or dual-stack network. There are no recommendations in this text for the IPv4 part of the network. The file can be obtained via http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-arch/ IESG discussion can be tracked via http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-arch/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From mellon@fugue.com Sat Aug 3 12:50:01 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD0C21E809A for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 12:50:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KdBZWY4bLngT for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 12:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA7C521E8096 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 12:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.249.156] (unknown [88.128.80.7]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 68EED2380621; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 15:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <25617.1375279070@sandelman.ca> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2013 21:49:34 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <25617.1375279070@sandelman.ca> To: Chris Grundemann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: Michael Richardson , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2013 19:50:01 -0000 On Jul 31, 2013, at 3:57 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: > If time is of such an essence here, then it's more important that the = option > be emitted in Medius capable CER devices, and that it declare "Medius" > or ">Medius" clearly, than that we know what exactly an Interior = Router needs to > *do* when it sees that. I bet if you put your mind to it you could have a spec for this option = through the process in six weeks or less. I will do my part to advance = it quickly once it reaches the IESG. Why not start now instead of = prognosticating about how long it will take? ;) From mcr@sandelman.ca Sat Aug 3 13:32:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF2A11E80A2 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 13:32:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DF8K6kRxBg9e for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 13:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A54621F9B10 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 13:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A422017F; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 17:38:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 6ED0C63A7C; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 16:31:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE6963A5E; Sat, 3 Aug 2013 16:31:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Chris Grundemann In-Reply-To: References: <25617.1375279070@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Ted Lemon Subject: Re: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2013 20:32:50 -0000 Ted Lemon wrote: >> If time is of such an essence here, then it's more important that the >> option >> be emitted in Medius capable CER devices, and that it declare "Medius" >> or ">Medius" clearly, than that we know what exactly an Interior >> Router needs to >> *do* when it sees that. > I bet if you put your mind to it you could have a spec for this option > through the process in six weeks or less. I will do my part to > advance it quickly once it reaches the IESG. Why not start now instead > of prognosticating about how long it will take? ;) Chris, if you want me to, I'll start the draft. From marka@isc.org Sun Aug 4 14:59:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D3221F9D21 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2013 14:59:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.47 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.47 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.129, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OW+7jUolKC0J for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2013 14:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9609621F9D39 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2013 14:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60748C9468; Sun, 4 Aug 2013 21:58:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1375653544; bh=eS5w73DNFK5zkkd4hzlObomwAYyjXfHvEpuU+O8ascE=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=b1IwORrZF+rpqaZA5WA+L3iGGWDMBfTyMrc4ztKBS2hjLa4rp4HF5EdXUH2i/AGEw sJ7bAAOuiUhuHQlARdWzhtWVVeBXKudkvi0WF277QP9xH3EvLB765vd66XJhKZ2vBi O1ThmLLPLMRnjituU5lcUDV8r5+cqcLucVrpuS/Q= Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP; Sun, 4 Aug 2013 21:58:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87C0160348; Sun, 4 Aug 2013 22:02:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id fFv937WEpdAW; Sun, 4 Aug 2013 22:02:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B2E516034C; Sun, 4 Aug 2013 22:02:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (c211-30-183-50.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.183.50]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D06CE160349; Sun, 4 Aug 2013 22:02:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8AB838002D8; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:57:42 +1000 (EST) To: Ray Hunter From: Mark Andrews References: <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF22426@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> <51F93828.1030107@gmail.com> <2F25A799-C7E4-49EC-9D70-A556532466D8@darou.fr> <51FD27CE.1070602@globis.net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Aug 2013 17:54:54 +0200." <51FD27CE.1070602@globis.net> Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 07:57:41 +1000 Message-Id: <20130804215742.D8AB838002D8@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-DCC--Metrics: post.isc.org; whitelist Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Pierre PFISTER Subject: Re: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2013 21:59:09 -0000 In message <51FD27CE.1070602@globis.net>, Ray Hunter writes: > > > Pierre PFISTER wrote: > > > > Le 31 juil. 2013 =E0 18:15, Alexandru Petrescu a =E9crit : > > > >> Le 31/07/2013 17:38, Wes Beebee (wbeebee) a =E9crit : > >>>> If no prefix is found by the longetst-matching on the src address, > >>>> will a default be used instead? > >>>> Alex > >>>>> There is also potentially a whole destination lookup table that=B9s > >>>>> entirely devoted to the ::/0 source prefix. > >>>>> - Wes > >>> My understanding is that there IS a default for source address (see > >>> the above comment). > >> > >> Ok. > >> > >> The default for dst addresses leads to a nexthop. > >> > >> The default for src addresses leads also to a nexthop? Or to the dst of > >> another dst prefix? Or to the nexthop of the default of dst? > >> > >> It may sound as a rathole discussion but it is fully part of what the > >> longest-match algorithm does. > >> > >> Alex > >> > > > > > > > > I'm not sure about how it should be done but I can say how Linux seems > > to do it. > > > > * Those affirmation came by looking at the code... That I didn't > > wrote. So I cannot be 100% sure * > > > > Linux uses a tree structure in order to perform the longest prefix > > lookup on the destination address first. > > The found node (which has the longest prefix for the source address), > > CAN have a subtree. = > > > This subtree has the same structure as a regular routing table, but is > > used with the source address. > > > > This means that each node in a routing table has its own source > > routing table. There is no > > destination lookup first and then a source lookup in a global table. > > > > --> See fib6_lookup, and fib6_lookup_1 functions > > > > Now, when you add a route with destination and source prefix, = > > > the node for destination is created (or updated) and, then, = > > > if the source routing prefix length is not null, a subtree is created > > (or updated) and > > a node with the provided source prefix is inserted. > > > > --> See fib6_add > > > > Therefore, for a given node in the main tree, if there is no source > > routing (no subtree), the route > > is always used. Otherwise, a longest prefix match is performed on the > > source address, using the subtree. = > > > If there is no corresponding node for the source (no matching prefix, > > where the prefix length can be null), = > > > then, the parent node in the destination routing table is used as > > default. = > > > > > So, yes, inserting a route for a destination and source prefix will > > create an entry for the destination alone = > > > (without source routing). = > > > So the default route, for a source lookup, is basically the last > > inserted next-hop for the destination prefix... = > > > Which could create unexpected behaviors. > > > > > > Concerning the previous question, Linux actually has > > a RTF_GATEWAY flag. But it doesn't seem to > > be used in the routing decision process. I guess it is used by other > > protocols that like to have a = > > > concept of "default router". > > > > > > > > Pierre > > OK I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I seem to have read > 4 different opinions on how to implement the longest match algorithm for > (source,destination) next hop selection. > > Namely: > > 1. Two step matching destination first and then using the result to key > a longest match lookup on source address (Pierre re Linux code Wed, 31 > Jul 2013 19:16:41) > 2. Two step matching source first and then using the result to key a > longest match lookup on destinationaddress(Wes Mon, 29 Jul 2013 18:52:01 > & Wed, 31 Jul 2013 17:01:29 ) > 3. Single step longest match with Fuzzy aspects (Alexandru Mon, 29 Jul > 2013 10:44:27 ) > 4. Source-based routing will never work for locally originated packets > because source address selection is done after routing. (Lorenzo Mon, > 29 Jul 2013 19:41:48) When you do not have a source address you use destination first to get a source address. When you have a source address you use source address first. One can implement this a number of ways. Depending upon how one implements you use source address first or destination address first. As long as it gets the same destination we shouldn't care how it is implemented. Effectively you have a route table for each prefix and when you have a source address you use longest match in the table that corresponds to that source address. When you don't have a source address you look in all the tables and find the longest match of the longest match. Note there are other constraints that may reduce the set of source addresses you look for longest match in when choosing source a source address. > Is there a serious risk here that we may get forwarding loops, or > packets dropped by filters due to incorrect egress gateway selection, > even though we don't have routing loops, or doesn't it matter that > different implementations do different things? > > -- = > > Regards, > RayH > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From wbeebee@cisco.com Mon Aug 5 06:34:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0343521F9DBE for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:34:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FejXKnzlAjVL for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38C521F9D71 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:34:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=717; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1375709679; x=1376919279; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=TyIyQbhFAmyBKpznBvYo/ckIp8uQtn3gXlgYGJpqfZo=; b=FiH186JPh20vBE9weYdz4S1VtKk2saco5q7RYaJ24J6IkwbI23i9no9g Ys3tmeIIJX8FtmZLxAbls0dk2fYAeZhf/M7jk/7PRoaITor40ofd6LNiR enjWukrvvrQhB6FiCvRefoMwQPYnag00wh0bNsoeErbTZs6c5rXQBCHF6 I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah0FAG+o/1GtJXG+/2dsb2JhbABagwaBBbwAgnSBHhZ0giYBBHkSAQgOFFYlAgQBDQ2ICLUOj2gxB4MZdAOpL4FegTmCKg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,818,1367971200"; d="scan'208";a="243537991" Received: from rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com ([173.37.113.190]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2013 13:34:38 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x14.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x14.cisco.com [173.36.12.88]) by rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r75DYcfh026990 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Aug 2013 13:34:38 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com ([169.254.8.40]) by xhc-aln-x14.cisco.com ([173.36.12.88]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 08:34:38 -0500 From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" To: Ray Hunter , Pierre PFISTER Thread-Topic: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) Thread-Index: AQHOkGHi4OSal7sM7UGdiT6LUK/mL5mGsQ6A Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 13:34:37 +0000 Message-ID: <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF277DB@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <51FD27CE.1070602@globis.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.6.130613 x-originating-ip: [10.131.71.105] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 13:34:45 -0000 >1. Two step matching destination first and then using the result to key >a longest match lookup on source address (Pierre re Linux code Wed, 31 >Jul 2013 19:16:41) >2. Two step matching source first and then using the result to key a >longest match lookup on destinationaddress(Wes Mon, 29 Jul 2013 18:52:01 >& Wed, 31 Jul 2013 17:01:29 ) >3. Single step longest match with Fuzzy aspects (Alexandru Mon, 29 Jul >2013 10:44:27 ) >4. Source-based routing will never work for locally originated packets >because source address selection is done after routing. (Lorenzo Mon, >29 Jul 2013 19:41:48) 1+2 amount to the same thing=8A 3+4 seem to be different from 1+2, and 3 is different from 4. - Wes From hrogge@googlemail.com Mon Aug 5 06:40:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A4F21F9EA1 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HejqQo+7+ieT for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qe0-x234.google.com (mail-qe0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c02::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462F421F9CE9 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qe0-f52.google.com with SMTP id cz11so1705373qeb.25 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 06:40:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uI2qTv0s6XlMyicNhako+zenNrbAipmMqUPNfre+qw0=; b=0fhJOtAKkndxCLgPZspx2XrSYAbTAiMt8QVFxM1YKlKtIIkPDpqbIsJk+oUnGG7g0i 4S4M/6IvHQeR8YQvAdDe50UL+Q1MnKWFgHz82y1YTh6KD+h+2aoNxIs3r/crPr/k+Gph MULojxktjlurao2Bp6Hkmk7TLDcgV9BQBfX43WL4/FOz/xYSen1b6VdkMUg5Rnwqqq4k d7XUSyf2LzFdamUZZSWUmWJNXCqE7wX/elFNNn+9QoP4hzUFGYpfw0RFWHS0bdB0nXsj VCsWC9CVYQqJsFJ+TulvBAnqUUvjFxppimLuQS67rw3+mnvQHRHvaObkZHQIdAIdMq77 6mBQ== X-Received: by 10.49.47.50 with SMTP id a18mr26619750qen.61.1375710055673; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 06:40:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.164.198 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:40:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF277DB@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> References: <51FD27CE.1070602@globis.net> <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF277DB@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 15:40:35 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Ray Hunter , "homenet@ietf.org" , Pierre PFISTER Subject: Re: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 13:40:57 -0000 On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Wes Beebee (wbeebee) wr= ote: >>4. Source-based routing will never work for locally originated packets >>because source address selection is done after routing. (Lorenzo Mon, >>29 Jul 2013 19:41:48) > > 1+2 amount to the same thing=C5=A0 > 3+4 seem to be different from 1+2, and 3 is different from 4. I wonder if source-based routing could/should work for sockets which are bounded to a fixed local IP address, not IP_ANY. This would mean the source address for locally originated packets should be well known before the routing. Henning Rogge --=20 We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars - Carl Sagan From C.Grundemann@cablelabs.com Mon Aug 5 06:43:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D269021F8E8E for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:43:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id shIfPWZzA+dg for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9293321F9F9A for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 06:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r75DhAYp002493; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:43:10 -0600 Received: from exchange.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.19) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Mon, 05 Aug 2013 07:43:09 -0600 (MDT) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) Received: from EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee]) by EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0146.000; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:43:09 -0600 From: Chris Grundemann To: Michael Richardson Thread-Topic: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? Thread-Index: AQHOjfYm4YIz1Ts/N0uHBuZqgTzU3ZmETdAAgAALqICAAtQvAA== Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 13:43:08 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <27546.1375561877@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.6.130613 x-originating-ip: [10.5.0.27] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <31DFD3AEFD82AC49A2F0C3FEEF9CADBD@cablelabs.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Approved: ondar Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Ted Lemon Subject: Re: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 13:43:26 -0000 TWljaGFlbCwgdGhlcmUgaXMgYWxyZWFkeSBhIGRyYWZ0IGluIHBsYWNlIChDRVJfSUQpWzFdLCBh bmQgaXQgaXMgYWxyZWFkeQ0KcmVmZXJlbmNlZCBpbiB0aGUgSElQbmV0IGRyYWZ0WzJdLiBJZiB0 aGlzIGlzIHRoZSBuZWVkZWQgZGlyZWN0aW9uLCBJIHNlZQ0Kbm8gcmVhc29uIHRvIHN0YXJ0IG92 ZXIgLSBkbyB5b3U/DQoNCkNoZWVycywNCn5DaHJpcw0KDQpbMV0gLSBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmll dGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtZG9ubGV5LWRoYy1jZXItaWQtb3B0aW9uLTAxDQpbMl0gLSBodHRw czovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtZ3J1bmRlbWFubi1oaXBuZXQtMDAjc2VjdGlv bi00LjENCg0KDQpPbiAzL0F1Zy8xMyAyMjozMSBHTVQrMDI6MDAsICJNaWNoYWVsIFJpY2hhcmRz b24iIDxtY3JAc2FuZGVsbWFuLmNhPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPg0KPlRlZCBMZW1vbiA8bWVsbG9uQGZ1 Z3VlLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+ICAgID4+IElmIHRpbWUgaXMgb2Ygc3VjaCBhbiBlc3NlbmNlIGhl cmUsICB0aGVuIGl0J3MgbW9yZSBpbXBvcnRhbnQgdGhhdA0KPnRoZQ0KPiAgICA+PiBvcHRpb24N Cj4gICAgPj4gYmUgZW1pdHRlZCBpbiBNZWRpdXMgY2FwYWJsZSBDRVIgZGV2aWNlcywgYW5kIHRo YXQgaXQgZGVjbGFyZQ0KPiJNZWRpdXMiDQo+ICAgID4+IG9yICI+TWVkaXVzIiBjbGVhcmx5LCB0 aGFuIHRoYXQgd2Uga25vdyB3aGF0IGV4YWN0bHkgYW4gSW50ZXJpb3INCj4gICAgPj4gUm91dGVy IG5lZWRzIHRvDQo+ICAgID4+ICpkbyogd2hlbiBpdCBzZWVzIHRoYXQuDQo+DQo+ICAgID4gSSBi ZXQgaWYgeW91IHB1dCB5b3VyIG1pbmQgdG8gaXQgeW91IGNvdWxkIGhhdmUgYSBzcGVjIGZvciB0 aGlzDQo+b3B0aW9uDQo+ICAgID4gdGhyb3VnaCB0aGUgcHJvY2VzcyBpbiBzaXggd2Vla3Mgb3Ig bGVzcy4gICBJIHdpbGwgZG8gbXkgcGFydCB0bw0KPiAgICA+IGFkdmFuY2UgaXQgcXVpY2tseSBv bmNlIGl0IHJlYWNoZXMgdGhlIElFU0cuICBXaHkgbm90IHN0YXJ0IG5vdw0KPmluc3RlYWQNCj4g ICAgPiBvZiBwcm9nbm9zdGljYXRpbmcgYWJvdXQgaG93IGxvbmcgaXQgd2lsbCB0YWtlPyAgOykN Cj4NCj5DaHJpcywgaWYgeW91IHdhbnQgbWUgdG8sIEknbGwgc3RhcnQgdGhlIGRyYWZ0Lg0KPg0K DQo= From teco@inf-net.nl Mon Aug 5 07:24:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B3121F8415 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:24:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XB7Bfb8FLtqX for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bk0-f46.google.com (mail-bk0-f46.google.com [209.85.214.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C76F21F9F2D for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-bk0-f46.google.com with SMTP id 6so989870bkj.19 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 07:24:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=+QY/4rx+UodcgWZGKiKYATLcXbcwvBQbJsIJ/cHEKVk=; b=kwICW6FO8iXn7MDi5YzNQa5uE7g823IfTbOS4hxGMR/mUvdMSKkLNXj3QLkQeCAB91 sv5UolZlZfLkuyU/JZPmbeL38iDuX3eGGBtOTJnBcAbAebCtN6inhEoQRDhyZlD2J9cU nfuLmbFVT+RCU3bEFXIOi1fgx6gAxxnZuoSGnKQWYq42PcDOSPZKy4Os1hTr1ESpCJXS i+S2H1Vos2ww5hTWLf3EEEVI9/IS/6sOv8G+xoCHC+BDICH24y12MytlahmgqoxCFcoq 5SYahX2J9uSK7PRvCsj2mfmL5teKvEMPAX2goG0YpllQUFpvKH3H45a77DtcdRVj7uE1 WIDQ== X-Received: by 10.204.186.208 with SMTP id ct16mr2720138bkb.165.1375712648578; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 07:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.87.33.85] ([88.128.80.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id g5sm5014065bkh.17.2013.08.05.07.23.26 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Aug 2013 07:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 16:23:11 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <66256480-E3B6-4942-AD38-DF0213336BD0@inf-net.nl> References: <51FD27CE.1070602@globis.net> <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF277DB@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> To: Henning Rogge X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn/2sn98uQxd6obKTW4sZp7AddPKkJ2O4aGaVuY7I9U2YbLBh8mk+li3O0hFNsbuNRle9Ls Cc: Ray Hunter , "Wes Beebee \(wbeebee\)" , Pierre PFISTER , "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:24:52 -0000 Op 5 aug. 2013, om 15:40 heeft Henning Rogge het = volgende geschreven: > On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Wes Beebee (wbeebee) = wrote: >>> 4. Source-based routing will never work for locally originated = packets >>> because source address selection is done after routing. (Lorenzo = Mon, >>> 29 Jul 2013 19:41:48) >>=20 >> 1+2 amount to the same thing=8A >> 3+4 seem to be different from 1+2, and 3 is different from 4. >=20 > I wonder if source-based routing could/should work for sockets which > are bounded to a fixed local IP address, not IP_ANY. This would mean > the source address for locally originated packets should be well known > before the routing. I think it MUST work. Otherwise, apps will not run after enabling SADR. = Better not. In practice this means there is always a (set of) = non-source_address_dependent default route(s).=20 Teco >=20 > Henning Rogge >=20 > --=20 > We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered > long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to > set sail for the stars - Carl Sagan > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From mellon@fugue.com Mon Aug 5 07:37:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1623A21F9D1B for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:37:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SClxLImIpvQk for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33E621F9F08 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.10.40] (c-174-62-147-182.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [174.62.147.182]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96FDF2380867; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 10:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 10:37:30 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <299A6036-19CD-4C54-BC85-143D43B5BDBB@fugue.com> References: To: Chris Grundemann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Michael Richardson Subject: Re: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:37:39 -0000 I think the configuration model here needs more thought. The hipnet = document talks about heuristics for figuring out that it's at the edge, = but e.g. the /48 heuristic seems like it won't work. What I would like to see is something like Fred Baker's draft = (draft-baker-homenet-prefix-assignment-01), for any router that could be = a CER. Fred's document has a few omissions that would need to be dealt = with: (1) It doesn't describe how DHCP relay works. A non-CER relays to the = CER, the IP address of which it got in the CER option. If the non-CER = knows of more than one CER, it relays to all CERs. (2) A router can be both CER and non-CER, in a multihoming situation, in = which case it both answers and relays all DHCP messages. This is = slightly weird, but the DHCP protocol allows multiple servers to = respond, so it should be okay. (3) routers that get multiple offers of different prefixes have to = configure both prefixes, not just one, so that multihome prefixes = propagate into the network. This is not what RFC3315 and RFC 3633 = advise; doing what they advise will result in a network that is = multihomed at the edge, but not in the center. (4) routers that relay DHCP messages sniff for routes on the replies, = and use them to populate their routing tables. (5) Fred's draft suggests that two routers advertising prefixes on the = same link is an error, and that one of the routers needs to let the = other win, but this misses the dual-home dual-CER case, where the = prefixes being advertised are from different providers. So the draft = needs to be narrowed to the case where both prefixes come from the same = provider, which probably means that prefixes need to be labeled as to = the provider with a new DHCP option. (6) I'm probably missing some routing subtlety here. This sounds complicated, but I think it's simpler than it sounds. = However, I think the current state of the CER and hipnet specs is _too_ = simple, and will not actually work. You have to solve the problem that = Fred's draft solves, and Fred's draft is actually pretty close. From teco@inf-net.nl Mon Aug 5 07:41:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54FFF21F9DF0 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:41:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bxU80BKFHLI4 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bk0-f42.google.com (mail-bk0-f42.google.com [209.85.214.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A762B21F9DF7 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-bk0-f42.google.com with SMTP id jk14so1006555bkc.1 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 07:41:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=qxrxrixJuYGxJwT9THsIIovdhN6MvuS1Vc5umhgLP/0=; b=pj5mVm7KZRg7dr4QA5kYa5P1uYKGIw9aplUAcxElnNnYHI7FjOIGcADrRe5+dhzyA2 xQa9JO84xmLuwivitE7aK1QkIL3lkHyRSR7Mk3/BnjdcRX0+998T0Z6tqg4/IW+NDyi6 yZmJsuNyDQcBhk16RLfVKvzertqiLoNBTYHmWCTnjsxIMKIaMK4JV3Mg0vYtDi9bkXUr vdC5rwFW8af8edQ/2HVp25XMf5HGJVtEfIIn0nL4+hvID260UIpaSsqvavV6SMlJ0OV3 AE+65d5YZ/JQyKL1qRN/7D3Ulo+LY9wlfHSn64trpXzXy7ZJbEfi6jcoRYFkdaUNmOML CqMQ== X-Received: by 10.204.240.141 with SMTP id la13mr2863998bkb.84.1375713660938; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 07:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.87.33.85] ([88.128.80.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ct12sm5028740bkb.12.2013.08.05.07.40.58 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Aug 2013 07:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF277DB@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 16:40:54 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <70D8F697-DCC0-4900-A106-D9F0C16CD2B1@inf-net.nl> References: <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF277DB@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> To: Wes Beebee (wbeebee) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkVtTbLZLBPq5Nwptuxkp2Oww9BSdAtDQZr9ittX22iyZX7joYcTnl4voaID7SVcZRBCk8Y Cc: Ray Hunter , "homenet@ietf.org" , Pierre PFISTER Subject: Re: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:41:15 -0000 Op 5 aug. 2013, om 15:34 heeft Wes Beebee (wbeebee) = het volgende geschreven: >=20 >> 1. Two step matching destination first and then using the result to = key >> a longest match lookup on source address (Pierre re Linux code Wed, = 31 >> Jul 2013 19:16:41) >> 2. Two step matching source first and then using the result to key a >> longest match lookup on destinationaddress(Wes Mon, 29 Jul 2013 = 18:52:01 >> & Wed, 31 Jul 2013 17:01:29 ) >> 3. Single step longest match with Fuzzy aspects (Alexandru Mon, 29 = Jul >> 2013 10:44:27 ) >> 4. Source-based routing will never work for locally originated = packets >> because source address selection is done after routing. (Lorenzo = Mon, >> 29 Jul 2013 19:41:48) >=20 > 1+2 amount to the same thing=8A Are you sure? Routing table: to 2001:db8:10::1 from 2001:db8:1::/48 via fe80::1 to 2001:db8:10::/48 from 2001:db8:1::1 via fe80::2 Packet has source 2001:db8:1::1, destination 2001:db8:10::1 With rule 1, nexthop is fe80::1 With rule 2, nexthop is fe80::2 Rule 1 is (to_be_fixed) running code in Linux and proposed in = draft-troan-homenet-sadr-00. I can agree on this. I suggest the sadr draft is updated so it reflects this choice with = notation of (D, S) -> Nexthop. First D, then S. I also suggest ::/0 notation for match all, for source and destination = (so not using * for source ::/0). Teco=20 > 3+4 seem to be different from 1+2, and 3 is different from 4. >=20 > - Wes >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From v6ops@globis.net Mon Aug 5 10:13:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A15AD21F9FF6 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 10:13:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KwmL3vm58TH8 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 10:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from globis01.globis.net (RayH-1-pt.tunnel.tserv11.ams1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f14:62e::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0116321F9FD7 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 10:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0FB870075; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 19:13:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from globis01.globis.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.globis.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qjrjWDQ8yiaW; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 19:13:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Rays-iMac-2.local (unknown [192.168.0.3]) (Authenticated sender: Ray.Hunter@globis.net) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 18618870074; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 19:13:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <51FFDD18.8000400@globis.net> Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 19:12:56 +0200 From: Ray Hunter User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.8 (Macintosh/20130427) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Teco Boot References: <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF277DB@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> <70D8F697-DCC0-4900-A106-D9F0C16CD2B1@inf-net.nl> In-Reply-To: <70D8F697-DCC0-4900-A106-D9F0C16CD2B1@inf-net.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "Wes Beebee \(wbeebee\)" , Pierre PFISTER , "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 17:13:19 -0000 > Teco Boot > 5 August 2013 16:40 > Op 5 aug. 2013, om 15:34 heeft Wes Beebee (wbeebee) het volgende geschreven: > >>> 1. Two step matching destination first and then using the result to key >>> a longest match lookup on source address (Pierre re Linux code Wed, 31 >>> Jul 2013 19:16:41) >>> 2. Two step matching source first and then using the result to key a >>> longest match lookup on destinationaddress(Wes Mon, 29 Jul 2013 18:52:01 >>> & Wed, 31 Jul 2013 17:01:29 ) >>> 3. Single step longest match with Fuzzy aspects (Alexandru Mon, 29 Jul >>> 2013 10:44:27 ) >>> 4. Source-based routing will never work for locally originated packets >>> because source address selection is done after routing. (Lorenzo Mon, >>> 29 Jul 2013 19:41:48) >> 1+2 amount to the same thingŠ > Are you sure? > Routing table: > to 2001:db8:10::1 from 2001:db8:1::/48 via fe80::1 > to 2001:db8:10::/48 from 2001:db8:1::1 via fe80::2 > Packet has source 2001:db8:1::1, destination 2001:db8:10::1 > With rule 1, nexthop is fe80::1 > With rule 2, nexthop is fe80::2 > > Rule 1 is (to_be_fixed) running code in Linux and proposed in draft-troan-homenet-sadr-00. > I can agree on this. > > I suggest the sadr draft is updated so it reflects this choice with notation of (D, S) -> Nexthop. First D, then S. > I also suggest ::/0 notation for match all, for source and destination (so not using * for source ::/0). > > Teco Exactly. and then throw 2001:db8:10::1/48 from 2001:db8:1::/48 via fe80::3 into the mix, and it looks to me like it would be possible to have a forwarding loop without a routing loop (unless someone provides further clarification). > >> 3+4 seem to be different from 1+2, and 3 is different from 4. >> >> - Wes >> >> _______________________________________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > Wes Beebee (wbeebee) > 5 August 2013 15:34 > > 1+2 amount to the same thingŠ > 3+4 seem to be different from 1+2, and 3 is different from 4. > > - Wes > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Regards, RayH From mark@townsley.net Mon Aug 5 10:47:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C02221F9F3D for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 10:47:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSENuIDBroG0 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 10:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-f46.google.com (mail-yh0-f46.google.com [209.85.213.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D72B21E8053 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 10:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f46.google.com with SMTP id i57so1568633yha.5 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 10:47:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date :to:x-gm-message-state; bh=NxW7iHxZ5Qske214sK/zE1e80yy783r5fQQZSd2C0KQ=; b=cZGDq/djBiGi6IzzWGXVV0RpAxe2hTIhdB+FoEDCF7QPHUN2d4i+qKfCfNX/zPWo0S JP1K2RNLVqFJ54cDMYOm1oVHf4pDI/QgnZ0Qu8zTgA5ZGjt08t3aLS53KqRpsOnWPHu7 XrfPjI4uY0fxVc9sbCwSw6TN0Q/8Nt9k1BSR0KNWwVRwss6fuW42rh8wBGtrC1b5/wwy y4ZzjkbIZ6GaEL+HaG85q+QIx9fU0MohwKrT5/hJeQ5pTUWW3QIrpIPyaBeB1RRHdc7C n8NAvArlVQDozgnPVKqjTXg5urS1JfQTbz0BlzZguhVGU12rOjtHkJtyj48nO+27kubN J9cQ== X-Received: by 10.236.62.135 with SMTP id y7mr11840535yhc.232.1375724821114; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 10:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.33.107] (c-76-29-234-52.hsd1.al.comcast.net. [76.29.234.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id o1sm350592yho.2.2013.08.05.10.46.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Aug 2013 10:47:00 -0700 (PDT) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <326E6A0B-CF0B-4062-9636-FE83E73BE253@townsley.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10B350) From: "Townsley.net" Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 12:46:58 -0500 To: Chris Grundemann X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmQmiAJPsHH7cWEJheWtaELng1EkTYv2TU4mFT17FevUZcktetHQe28LQb+qB/ad0/6M02K Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Ted Lemon , Michael Richardson Subject: Re: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 17:47:10 -0000 Chris, what must be done to ensure that at least the cable labs eRouters wit= h DHCPv6 PD have the CER ID built in from day one? =20 - Mark (Thumbtyped) On 5 ao=C3=BBt 2013, at 08:43, Chris Grundemann = wrote: > Michael, there is already a draft in place (CER_ID)[1], and it is already > referenced in the HIPnet draft[2]. If this is the needed direction, I see > no reason to start over - do you? >=20 > Cheers, > ~Chris >=20 > [1] - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-donley-dhc-cer-id-option-01 > [2] - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-grundemann-hipnet-00#section-4.1 >=20 >=20 > On 3/Aug/13 22:31 GMT+02:00, "Michael Richardson" wrote= : >=20 >>=20 >> Ted Lemon wrote: >>>> If time is of such an essence here, then it's more important that >> the >>>> option >>>> be emitted in Medius capable CER devices, and that it declare >> "Medius" >>>> or ">Medius" clearly, than that we know what exactly an Interior >>>> Router needs to >>>> *do* when it sees that. >>=20 >>> I bet if you put your mind to it you could have a spec for this >> option >>> through the process in six weeks or less. I will do my part to >>> advance it quickly once it reaches the IESG. Why not start now >> instead >>> of prognosticating about how long it will take? ;) >>=20 >> Chris, if you want me to, I'll start the draft. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From teco@inf-net.nl Mon Aug 5 14:13:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66DFF21F9E43 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 14:13:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mvz5QZQsMlXE for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 14:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ee0-f52.google.com (mail-ee0-f52.google.com [74.125.83.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 634B521F9E3B for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 14:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ee0-f52.google.com with SMTP id c41so1862064eek.25 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:13:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=lPciYCfriDp3ykf3h7Pe6e/KGu6UM1QSrt18SHORiPQ=; b=Jr5bV2NOnxTSaRSohc0xmdJzEcr4ICYYU9+0V3/9Kbr/ltS4dXqUi2PB9Xb/bRZHBF 9v0rEmRVch8hEiZkHHrk60e3xZzUIQX+OfXd9ZThdPO0UTI/sInfWnFtFuIzoDvCvGFl cbAf/8xD+kxSLu7TukH9Qd5+dBHbcIfBM8PboKvAa7AXBmtGeekCxkESgtum2O6Fw2nM 3FiVy2cP8NgC+SLz6cOm+PAqCJ6u+BzsIRYlHX5VQUFfo9vJkPhNH0kHnBNYrLN6s/Tr /YNuvVetNc/FMiEZ8vp3e07FhIQWHlpKVePPg3Bv+GEhC/2Vw0s9TYaJF2nkRKApJEzU guFQ== X-Received: by 10.15.93.134 with SMTP id w6mr18680019eez.25.1375737202634; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.175.173.26] (524A14A4.cm-4-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl. [82.74.20.164]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id bq1sm1497683eeb.9.2013.08.05.14.13.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Aug 2013 14:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: <51FFDD18.8000400@globis.net> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 23:13:18 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3B1E098F-F988-4E8D-95AB-A68D0E2D3702@inf-net.nl> References: <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF277DB@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> <70D8F697-DCC0-4900-A106-D9F0C16CD2B1@inf-net.nl> <51FFDD18.8000400@globis.net> To: Ray Hunter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn50nkSFXmW19bw8hE45QxY934QzhD9nBNrTGwDIMWyEnWU7eVB/WqsW3mJ0f50N5WExDjs Cc: "Wes Beebee \(wbeebee\)" , Pierre PFISTER , "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2013 21:13:29 -0000 Op 5 aug. 2013, om 19:12 heeft Ray Hunter het = volgende geschreven: >> Teco Boot >> 5 August 2013 16:40 >> Op 5 aug. 2013, om 15:34 heeft Wes Beebee (wbeebee) = het volgende geschreven: >>=20 >>>> 1. Two step matching destination first and then using the result to = key >>>> a longest match lookup on source address (Pierre re Linux code Wed, = 31 >>>> Jul 2013 19:16:41) >>>> 2. Two step matching source first and then using the result to key = a >>>> longest match lookup on destinationaddress(Wes Mon, 29 Jul 2013 = 18:52:01 >>>> & Wed, 31 Jul 2013 17:01:29 ) >>>> 3. Single step longest match with Fuzzy aspects (Alexandru Mon, 29 = Jul >>>> 2013 10:44:27 ) >>>> 4. Source-based routing will never work for locally originated = packets >>>> because source address selection is done after routing. (Lorenzo = Mon, >>>> 29 Jul 2013 19:41:48) >>> 1+2 amount to the same thing=8A >> Are you sure? >> Routing table: >> to 2001:db8:10::1 from 2001:db8:1::/48 via fe80::1 >> to 2001:db8:10::/48 from 2001:db8:1::1 via fe80::2 >> Packet has source 2001:db8:1::1, destination 2001:db8:10::1 >> With rule 1, nexthop is fe80::1 >> With rule 2, nexthop is fe80::2 >>=20 >> Rule 1 is (to_be_fixed) running code in Linux and proposed in = draft-troan-homenet-sadr-00. >> I can agree on this. >>=20 >> I suggest the sadr draft is updated so it reflects this choice with = notation of (D, S) -> Nexthop. First D, then S. >> I also suggest ::/0 notation for match all, for source and = destination (so not using * for source ::/0). >>=20 >> Teco=20 > Exactly. >=20 > and then throw=20 >=20 > 2001:db8:10::1/48 from 2001:db8:1::/48 via fe80::3 >=20 > into the mix, and it looks to me like it would be possible to have a > forwarding loop without a routing loop (unless someone provides = further > clarification). If all routers follow same rule, why would there be a loop? For completeness, there is another rule in Fred's work. It suggests = additional fib entries composed with intersections of source and = destination prefixes, with intersections of the next hops. In my = example, there will be a to 2001:db8:10::1 from 2001:db8:1::1 blackhole = route. Not my preference. There is nothing wrong with selecting one or the = other, as long as we pick one of them and disallow the other. Teco >>=20 >>> 3+4 seem to be different from 1+2, and 3 is different from 4. >>>=20 >>> - Wes >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> homenet mailing list >>> homenet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >>=20 >> Wes Beebee (wbeebee) >> 5 August 2013 15:34 >>=20 >> 1+2 amount to the same thing=8A >> 3+4 seem to be different from 1+2, and 3 is different from 4. >>=20 >> - Wes >>=20 >> = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Regards, > RayH >=20 From lorenzo@google.com Mon Aug 5 20:20:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF0C21F9E35 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 20:20:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DY-Nssf6zKjv for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 20:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x22b.google.com (mail-qa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7244C21F9E1E for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 20:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id cl20so1399353qab.16 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 20:20:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=FIVW6clqV+X6LkS//TRGZSd5poxB36eELXqQpn0Upp8=; b=accKyoTP9UFg7tqDC/szb5CXdCdcATx4Mu+ZsoNuF02MgcCVYjPhRZjMJsAS1qwVhR z418d9talMeeIwLNVg/OXTE3OY2N04WXAspwUnDhHAEMf51WZi5P0hlK6Z1da23qDQUP cRMrnXyyWVzVxzbFZD+fIihAvBiZNaOrHBbWc9TaW0pNsVrsa9oKh22csRa+/7oplCQU 7UVUDDyoMt327Vx8B9TIYnA5dRxllHrz9DtwbPHVdQQNg33pYF0mJeNLJQ/Oe3oxOQ69 Inhgs4flKMmPRTITz4ME5TJtzdm6WjVQtwmtK4OaYZgh/+DiT8C2Hqlm06dLqQVwvDTA XzhQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=FIVW6clqV+X6LkS//TRGZSd5poxB36eELXqQpn0Upp8=; b=E1mlPh3uiMGudDWg3u8KNoK7X9MpLxRA0J9ryZ9/VeDaAo70ewZ9dHkZmHF/dewPWd YwhCTBXg63eLVjoJxgcabaH32e40eVN9jPXZ1PSBow3joiqcA7ujWc2fixMjTSh99Yhc HTLE96ixo1UO8n1grnCkv7+7bxc1LydJbKuHQVLFYBI7I985pzTqKWxKU5J3TW3lTVWx InufG8ZkU25h2XJ6RjCZuqfOG1RMvZJzv44eEIJVn5C5eBqrmYKZvexRlksozzIMYFRZ X9YQ5X4Ucblrndr3DqGhbvbNd0WXjWw9322HXuy9BoEKR0UMBHWpOJdOLYGreulO6SLu wQww== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkLAS1Ri3RGFGjdWN7Uwe0ZqVOA91fjxpnL3ztfBytjX5k1sH7pX6kj1rJDn5vaM62+W4Gmmx9/rXztIG+uVisOHGfypR753V8hKN2VRiJzQBOvNXbBmEYuhrpFbvQ9TO4D2BHyG/fFqlTHNAli5LNe8RMaH4YLb9O9QHOf7eCiEcWok+jQ2dJVnCY+DxjPv85yO0aq X-Received: by 10.224.161.76 with SMTP id q12mr876077qax.3.1375759227621; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 20:20:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.47.137 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 20:20:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <51FD27CE.1070602@globis.net> <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF277DB@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 12:20:07 +0900 Message-ID: To: Henning Rogge Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0149528e0f376904e33ee841 Cc: Ray Hunter , "Wes Beebee \(wbeebee\)" , Pierre PFISTER , "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 03:20:30 -0000 --089e0149528e0f376904e33ee841 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 10:40 PM, Henning Rogge wrote: > I wonder if source-based routing could/should work for sockets which > are bounded to a fixed local IP address, not IP_ANY. This would mean > the source address for locally originated packets should be well known > before the routing. > I just tested this and it does work (on a not-so-new 3.5.x kernel). Specifically, with these addresses: $ ip -6 addr list scope global temporary | grep -v lft 2: eth0: mtu 1500 qlen 1000 inet6 2401:fa00:4:1000:e1f8:a201:fd06:4beb/64 scope global temporary dynamic 3: wlan0: mtu 1500 qlen 1000 inet6 2401:fa00:4:1012:19b6:e86a:e1a3:168b/64 scope global temporary dynamic and with a default route out eth0, I configured source routing so anything coming from 2401:fa00:4:1012::/64 goes out on wlan0: $ sudo ip -6 rule add from 2401:fa00:4:1012::/64 lookup 100 $ sudo ip -6 route add table 100 default dev wlan0 via fe80::5:73ff:fea0:fb Then when I send packets: $ python [...] >>> from socket import * >>> s = socket(AF_INET6, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_UDP) >>> s.sendto("foo", ("2000::", 53)) 3 >>> s = socket(AF_INET6, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_UDP) >>> s.bind(("2401:fa00:4:1012:19b6:e86a:e1a3:168b", 0)) >>> s.sendto("foo", ("2000::", 53)) 3 The first packet goes out on eth0, the second on wlan0. --089e0149528e0f376904e33ee841 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 10:40 PM, Henning Rogge <hro= gge@googlemail.com> wrote:
I wonder if sourc= e-based routing could/should work for sockets which
are bounded to a fixed local IP address, not IP_ANY. This would mean
the source address for locally originated packets should be well known
before the routing.

I just tested this = and it does work (on a not-so-new 3.5.x kernel).

S= pecifically, with these addresses:

$ ip -6 addr li= st scope global temporary | grep -v lft
2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 q= len 1000
=A0 =A0 inet6 2401:fa00:4:1000:e1f8:a201:fd06:4beb/64 sc= ope global temporary dynamic=A0
3: wlan0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST= ,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qlen 1000
=A0 =A0 inet6 2401:fa00:4:1012:19b6:e86a:e1a3:168b/64 scope global tem= porary dynamic=A0

and with a default route o= ut eth0, I configured source routing so anything coming from 2401:fa00:4:10= 12::/64 goes out on wlan0:

$ sudo ip -6 rule add from 2401:fa00:4:1012::/64 lookup= 100
$ sudo ip -6 route add table 100 default dev wlan0 via f= e80::5:73ff:fea0:fb

Then when I send packets:<= /div>

$ python
[...]
>>>= ; from socket import *
>>> s =3D socket(AF_INET6, SOCK_D= GRAM, IPPROTO_UDP)
>>> s.sendto("foo", ("= 2000::", 53))
3
>>> s =3D socket(AF_INET6, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_UD= P)
>>> s.bind(("2401:fa00:4:1012:19b6:e86a:e1a3:168= b", 0))
>>> s.sendto("foo", ("2000::= ", 53))
3

The first packet goes out on eth0, th= e second on wlan0.
--089e0149528e0f376904e33ee841-- From otroan@employees.org Tue Aug 6 03:48:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602B421F9D9B for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 03:48:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NhM4MQ2PE+xx for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 03:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from banjo.employees.org (banjo.employees.org [198.137.202.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1108321F9DA9 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 03:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-lys02-vla252-10-147-116-74.cisco.com (64-103-25-233.cisco.com [64.103.25.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by banjo.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 779785E9C; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 03:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <299A6036-19CD-4C54-BC85-143D43B5BDBB@fugue.com> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 12:47:59 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <299A6036-19CD-4C54-BC85-143D43B5BDBB@fugue.com> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Michael Richardson , Chris Grundemann Subject: Re: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 10:48:12 -0000 Ted, et al, > I think the configuration model here needs more thought. The hipnet = document talks about heuristics for figuring out that it's at the edge, = but e.g. the /48 heuristic seems like it won't work. >=20 > What I would like to see is something like Fred Baker's draft = (draft-baker-homenet-prefix-assignment-01), for any router that could be = a CER. Fred's document has a few omissions that would need to be dealt = with: >=20 > (1) It doesn't describe how DHCP relay works. A non-CER relays to = the CER, the IP address of which it got in the CER option. If the = non-CER knows of more than one CER, it relays to all CERs. > (2) A router can be both CER and non-CER, in a multihoming situation, = in which case it both answers and relays all DHCP messages. This is = slightly weird, but the DHCP protocol allows multiple servers to = respond, so it should be okay. > (3) routers that get multiple offers of different prefixes have to = configure both prefixes, not just one, so that multihome prefixes = propagate into the network. This is not what RFC3315 and RFC 3633 = advise; doing what they advise will result in a network that is = multihomed at the edge, but not in the center. > (4) routers that relay DHCP messages sniff for routes on the replies, = and use them to populate their routing tables. > (5) Fred's draft suggests that two routers advertising prefixes on the = same link is an error, and that one of the routers needs to let the = other win, but this misses the dual-home dual-CER case, where the = prefixes being advertised are from different providers. So the draft = needs to be narrowed to the case where both prefixes come from the same = provider, which probably means that prefixes need to be labeled as to = the provider with a new DHCP option. > (6) I'm probably missing some routing subtlety here. >=20 > This sounds complicated, but I think it's simpler than it sounds. = However, I think the current state of the CER and hipnet specs is _too_ = simple, and will not actually work. You have to solve the problem that = Fred's draft solves, and Fred's draft is actually pretty close. please read = http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment/ before we start building spanning trees with DHCP. I'm in favour of hipnet as an intermediate step for a restricted = topology. e.g. two routers in series, with only one CER (that can potentially be multi-homed). I'm not in favour of using hipnet for the general problem of an = arbitrary topology. border discovery is tricky. you can define some heuristics, but without = some sort of security protocol it is going to be trial and error. in the = eRouter case it is trivial of course. cheers, Ole= From equinox@diac24.net Tue Aug 6 04:13:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FFA521F9C52 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:13:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NhmWb4IW0MfL for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spaceboyz.net (spaceboyz.net [IPv6:2001:8d8:870:1000::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7008B21F9C3A for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2001:8d8:81:5c2::] (helo=jupiter.n2.diac24.net) by spaceboyz.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1V6fCP-0008FO-Gm; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 13:13:09 +0200 Received: from equinox by jupiter.n2.diac24.net with local (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1V6fCC-002wh4-Im; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 13:12:58 +0200 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 13:12:56 +0200 From: David Lamparter To: Teco Boot Message-ID: <20130806111256.GF95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> References: <6856.1375095717@sandelman.ca> <10806.1375097238@sandelman.ca> <20130729143209.GL901145@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Pierre PFISTER , David Lamparter Subject: Re: [homenet] source routing requirements for routing protocols X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 11:13:20 -0000 On Sat, Aug 03, 2013 at 03:42:44PM +0200, Teco Boot wrote: > I tested SADR with Linux IPv6_SUBTREES, with disappointing outcome. > I posted my results on devnet, http://www.spinics.net/lists/netdev/msg245231.html > Can you verify? > I included the posting for convenience. Indeed I failed to take Linux's routing cache into account. (Basically, since I was testing interactively in a shell, I was too slow to trigger this issue.) So the core logic is correct, but it breaks as soon as there is a cache entry. The way the route cache works, this is a bit annoying to fix correctly. If someone wants to work on SADR on Linux right now, I have a patch that partially fixes the cache lookup, but it only works as long as the source specifications don't overlap. [which should be the case in homenet most of the time, but note it breaks when there is a route with ::/0 source.] (For the interested, fib6_lookup/_1() and ip6_pol_route() need to be restructured. Also, the "BACKTRACK" macro is completely f*ken useless. Not sure if this ever worked.) -David From equinox@diac24.net Tue Aug 6 04:20:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D486521F9D87 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:20:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mzfyPHDV7UZo for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spaceboyz.net (spaceboyz.net [IPv6:2001:8d8:870:1000::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF82C21F9D7B for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2001:8d8:81:5c2::] (helo=jupiter.n2.diac24.net) by spaceboyz.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1V6fJe-0000Xw-B7; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 13:20:38 +0200 Received: from equinox by jupiter.n2.diac24.net with local (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1V6fJR-002xAR-DG; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 13:20:27 +0200 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 13:20:25 +0200 From: David Lamparter To: Teco Boot , Pierre PFISTER , "homenet@ietf.org Group" Message-ID: <20130806112025.GG95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> References: <6856.1375095717@sandelman.ca> <10806.1375097238@sandelman.ca> <20130729143209.GL901145@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> <20130806111256.GF95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20130806111256.GF95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [homenet] source routing requirements for routing protocols X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 11:20:40 -0000 On Tue, Aug 06, 2013 at 01:12:56PM +0200, David Lamparter wrote: > On Sat, Aug 03, 2013 at 03:42:44PM +0200, Teco Boot wrote: > > I tested SADR with Linux IPv6_SUBTREES, with disappointing outcome. > > I posted my results on devnet, http://www.spinics.net/lists/netdev/msg245231.html > > Can you verify? > > I included the posting for convenience. > > Indeed I failed to take Linux's routing cache into account. (Basically, > since I was testing interactively in a shell, I was too slow to trigger > this issue.) > > So the core logic is correct, but it breaks as soon as there is a cache > entry. The way the route cache works, this is a bit annoying to fix > correctly. Oh wait... I just had the evilest idea to fix this. We can simply go not create a cache entry for subtree routes. If someone wants to do this, edit net/ipv6/route.c and find this fragment: if (!(rt->rt6i_flags & (RTF_NONEXTHOP | RTF_GATEWAY))) nrt = rt6_alloc_cow(rt, &fl6->daddr, &fl6->saddr); else if (!(rt->dst.flags & DST_HOST)) nrt = rt6_alloc_clone(rt, &fl6->daddr); replace with: if (FIB6_SUBTREE(fn) || rt->rt6i_src.plen) nrt = NULL; /* lalala */ else if (!(rt->rt6i_flags & (RTF_NONEXTHOP | RTF_GATEWAY))) nrt = rt6_alloc_cow(rt, &fl6->daddr, &fl6->saddr); else if (!(rt->dst.flags & DST_HOST)) nrt = rt6_alloc_clone(rt, &fl6->daddr); (I didn't test this, I'll try out later if no one else beats me to it) -David From dave.taht@gmail.com Tue Aug 6 04:21:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC5F21F942D for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:21:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.262 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.262 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.262, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPJS84ogwpAu for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x235.google.com (mail-ob0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4774621F9D96 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f181.google.com with SMTP id dn14so497536obc.12 for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 04:21:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=L2bi8E5ZmSSkV91GGu3i9ZfeNWHEelNGt/2dgXBqyes=; b=EybzQ3uyK5/x1fiSvzNFHGIpG18nFqcANEJG4TzWd6Cl8bd/eHogsWIHIUIIVdC14m MY2hvkqcaeWhWapdW22gFIFeD5z/+ng8HxUBZzWFn1DCLYg1+7kXiqawDiah13vZ8fzW /BUhHiBi1CD4ZpSh092+sgFP4Rf8NVhFJh8DZHiqT2Eect1jbKYfudlL3uozGPMU4KzH DjRaIQTdPz1rs+0kBnMgrzc3nJ0xdzBtJmXdLXT+FMd8n8npC3v9vQFsAia+4R8WVjQG 0z24bknsn7D8779jaTLpNesXxL4JznspcoA6LDe91SKBsy6R/VfhtixC6EzbpiYzcK+P Wkqg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.37.203 with SMTP id z11mr2018717icd.56.1375788092631; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 04:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.62.106 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:21:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130806111256.GF95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> References: <6856.1375095717@sandelman.ca> <10806.1375097238@sandelman.ca> <20130729143209.GL901145@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> <20130806111256.GF95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:21:32 -0700 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: David Lamparter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Teco Boot , Pierre PFISTER Subject: Re: [homenet] source routing requirements for routing protocols X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 11:21:35 -0000 On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 4:12 AM, David Lamparter wrote: > On Sat, Aug 03, 2013 at 03:42:44PM +0200, Teco Boot wrote: >> I tested SADR with Linux IPv6_SUBTREES, with disappointing outcome. >> I posted my results on devnet, http://www.spinics.net/lists/netdev/msg24= 5231.html >> Can you verify? >> I included the posting for convenience. > > Indeed I failed to take Linux's routing cache into account. (Basically, > since I was testing interactively in a shell, I was too slow to trigger > this issue.) > > So the core logic is correct, but it breaks as soon as there is a cache > entry. The way the route cache works, this is a bit annoying to fix > correctly. > > If someone wants to work on SADR on Linux right now, I have a patch that > partially fixes the cache lookup, but it only works as long as the > source specifications don't overlap. [which should be the case in > homenet most of the time, but note it breaks when there is a route with > ::/0 source.] > > (For the interested, fib6_lookup/_1() and ip6_pol_route() need to be > restructured. Also, the "BACKTRACK" macro is completely f*ken useless. > Not sure if this ever worked.) git clone git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/davem/net-next.git There have been a half dozen commits in linux's net-next kernel tree around the route cache in the last few weeks, notably one simplified ip rule for dealing with default routes, another broke out the genid stuff to make route flushing ipv4 not affect ipv6 and vice versa. Can I encourage those looking at this to look at that and see what can be leveraged/improved/fixed/de-borked? commit 7764a45a8f1fe74d4f7d301eaca2e558e7e2831a Author: Stefan Tomanek Date: Thu Aug 1 02:17:15 2013 +0200 fib_rules: add .suppress operation This change adds a new operation to the fib_rules_ops struct; it allows= the suppression of routing decisions if certain criteria are not met by its results. The first implemented constraint is a minimum prefix length added to th= e structures of routing rules. If a rule is added with a minimum prefix l= ength >0, only routes meeting this threshold will be considered. Any other (m= ore general) routing table entries will be ignored. When configuring a system with multiple network uplinks and default rou= tes, is often convinient to reference the main routing table multiple times = - but omitting the default route. Using this patch and a modified "ip" utilit= y, th can be achieved by using the following command sequence: $ ip route add table secuplink default via 10.42.23.1 $ ip rule add pref 100 table main prefixlength 1 $ ip rule add pref 150 fwmark 0xA table secuplink With this setup, packets marked 0xA will be processed by the additional= rout table "secuplink", but only if no suitable route in the main routing ta= ble c be found. By using a minimal prefixlength of 1, the default route (/0) = of th table "main" is hidden to packets processed by rule 100; packets travel= ing t destinations with more specific routing entries are processed as usual. > > > -David > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --=20 Dave T=E4ht Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.= html From equinox@diac24.net Tue Aug 6 04:28:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E06D21F9D4A for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:28:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.225 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.225 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.225, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3+0KH17kCTf5 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spaceboyz.net (spaceboyz.net [IPv6:2001:8d8:870:1000::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB2721F9D30 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2001:8d8:81:5c2::] (helo=jupiter.n2.diac24.net) by spaceboyz.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1V6fRA-0001AJ-JW; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 13:28:24 +0200 Received: from equinox by jupiter.n2.diac24.net with local (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1V6fQx-002xZS-IS; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 13:28:14 +0200 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 13:28:11 +0200 From: David Lamparter To: Dave Taht Message-ID: <20130806112811.GH95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> References: <6856.1375095717@sandelman.ca> <10806.1375097238@sandelman.ca> <20130729143209.GL901145@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> <20130806111256.GF95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Teco Boot , Pierre PFISTER Subject: Re: [homenet] source routing requirements for routing protocols X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 11:28:27 -0000 On Tue, Aug 06, 2013 at 04:21:32AM -0700, Dave Taht wrote: > On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 4:12 AM, David Lamparter wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 03, 2013 at 03:42:44PM +0200, Teco Boot wrote: > >> I tested SADR with Linux IPv6_SUBTREES, with disappointing outcome. > >> I posted my results on devnet, http://www.spinics.net/lists/netdev/msg245231.html > >> Can you verify? > >> I included the posting for convenience. > > > > Indeed I failed to take Linux's routing cache into account. (Basically, > > since I was testing interactively in a shell, I was too slow to trigger > > this issue.) > > > > So the core logic is correct, but it breaks as soon as there is a cache > > entry. The way the route cache works, this is a bit annoying to fix > > correctly. > > > > If someone wants to work on SADR on Linux right now, I have a patch that > > partially fixes the cache lookup, but it only works as long as the > > source specifications don't overlap. [which should be the case in > > homenet most of the time, but note it breaks when there is a route with > > ::/0 source.] > > > > (For the interested, fib6_lookup/_1() and ip6_pol_route() need to be > > restructured. Also, the "BACKTRACK" macro is completely f*ken useless. > > Not sure if this ever worked.) > > > git clone git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/davem/net-next.git > > There have been a half dozen commits in linux's net-next kernel tree > around the route cache in the last few weeks, notably one simplified > ip rule for dealing with default routes, another broke out the genid > stuff to make route flushing ipv4 not affect ipv6 and vice versa. Can > I encourage those looking at this to look at that and see what can be > leveraged/improved/fixed/de-borked? I've already been working on top of net-next, I have skimmed over those changes and don't believe they come in helpful. Part of the problem is that the route cache entries simply aren't created correctly. I'm not sure if that's the entire problem - can't test the lookup logic without correct entries - but I believe so at a confidence of 75%. What I'd really like to do is just copy the subtree pointer from the original route to the cache entry. But that gives me 2 problems - (a) I need to check the deletion semantics against ending up with a dead pointer and (b) the code isn't designed to create a cache entry for a "dead" route (which the parent of multiple source routes without a default source route would be). Cloning the subtree instead of copying the pointer is an option in case (a) blows up, but if avoidable I'd like to avoid it. I'm still fiddling with this, but it might take a bit since I need to keep doing some, er, paycheck work... -David From lorenzo@google.com Tue Aug 6 04:41:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B3A621F9815 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:41:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7rbAfFJ+5551 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x229.google.com (mail-ob0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53BE21F9D8D for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f169.google.com with SMTP id wc20so541114obb.28 for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 04:41:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=6U+4ZFRqvWiqzQU0CniOKH84F364g3G+7Qu0OLrsdn8=; b=Ysl1W2cnEHUWDdHarfZA4SzaZ1DRma+q2CdJan82IuTuG/HG+QQFgn2VVXoKAjXF9p iQZ3M0DJNF/x0aYC48NzTPN51dMJmli5ZW0CZaUhEahinn6vw2a4GmfnYfRUsuCf6016 G2YwQA0A2AeUoKMZGhNXXPiMfqmuUrjjmvDIlMM/B24/v58lyEmqYtGxdqPsNwMePPjG 6IFGXivXwsFImbXN270Z9TY+cR2UJU45ku65fqp5LfpuxrJHqsqDQPZc2lwJB2/7rtGp 9JLpY209++Met8cdTCzDIcm9ZVkaAWpi7Kpj6UfB876zBlocTldHICCs7UpmFc/mvAFq uuLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=6U+4ZFRqvWiqzQU0CniOKH84F364g3G+7Qu0OLrsdn8=; b=SMRQKn1u3LYW0zgTA12XI409Aw+q67Q9en2lIgtsjIlwOeupdiOUpw/c6QzWSm6RZT NwTKvN2U5cHLV7GBXDJKIilcRDMCGyO1xCIlVx399pLpBnsd2IIvfpvuZ+r+1OhWJmcc bhN9qNkbXJyQ7kgSaUe7boJISOhxg/uMvcPN8mxbmM4Q0wnWNA4wK6nUFif8b1wAoEYT qQHDUDOcwGh5eEQc54o98VUUz0ObodlJgS1tHGFkAUsPhGdnEE8IPZm7TfrrJGCoigDB jJSVP3Fj8BAGZ69XS4VManorBcH+ZsTl1LDCGBh1x1b1p7LQNKSBv48dzo7qBW7l0uzG pLHQ== X-Received: by 10.43.137.131 with SMTP id io3mr2032287icc.79.1375789278323; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 04:41:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.228.144 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 04:40:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130806111256.GF95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> References: <6856.1375095717@sandelman.ca> <10806.1375097238@sandelman.ca> <20130729143209.GL901145@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> <20130806111256.GF95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 20:40:57 +0900 Message-ID: To: David Lamparter Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2c322389e9404e345e72a X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmyMVxv3kPEHP5reyVapxpS7rtpQesnn66xNOTtlhZ7oezW5XYpb4CzK1LElz/JhGKPcOvo6FwTJQkBIxVvdFSUdIB90q9suHrO/6DUQnCz+xZWeGM8rjfvgn1FTNw9hJD5FJXXuXqf7yXISlJ8KH5RaKmCZHrmGrNBNXhWRUjqVq3cN/j0JZ/rx2TER1sI967dGMKU Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Teco Boot , Pierre PFISTER Subject: Re: [homenet] source routing requirements for routing protocols X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 11:41:20 -0000 --001a11c2c322389e9404e345e72a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 8:12 PM, David Lamparter wrote: > Indeed I failed to take Linux's routing cache into account. (Basically, > since I was testing interactively in a shell, I was too slow to trigger > this issue.) > I thought the routing cache was gone on recent-enough linux kernels? --001a11c2c322389e9404e345e72a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 8:12 PM, David Lamparter <equino= x@diac24.net> wrote:
Indeed I failed to take Linux's routing cache into account. = =A0(Basically,
since I was testing interactively in a shell, I was too slow to trigger
this issue.)

I thought the routing cach= e was gone on recent-enough linux kernels?=A0
--001a11c2c322389e9404e345e72a-- From robert.bradley1@gmail.com Tue Aug 6 05:18:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7AA21F9DA9 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 05:18:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xj0wa258bINo for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 05:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x22b.google.com (mail-qa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F2121F9C3A for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 05:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id cl20so1585853qab.2 for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 05:18:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=8AhSsS4VthjuiL2ki+upSKM04aZ5nGZZToZzQ2boITM=; b=MmCHyzQhf7DmH13H1/zNkD+WPEQwt6Ww2l8r/TcPR2Ku579iIWbc/sbBvaC1iz6SC8 JQUwSdSS+H7bq3yXN4oDAP/LilbdPeZ8tlSCHwa3vFfRii1nKEFO4dBD5HYURza26GIM BobUneSsY2gMdgnJXkUAFFqZB4fbycfeZTaFFVhlCfA0kdGZSwKU4CtcmnLyqs9HunlY 3AkAmIF2WI6krax9Hk3NCMKKwZuPo79QE9jo6mQaGhTnz+xBjDaB4gX59K1X68clQNPp Kex7x40jedZKBn5+ncbrgSmNG7Igv9XawktsdLQlVqQUq4Wp8XsCnzGe6E+mX5mrE8Iy NkoA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.147.206 with SMTP id m14mr2881737qav.111.1375791518471; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 05:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.181.65 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 05:18:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <6856.1375095717@sandelman.ca> <10806.1375097238@sandelman.ca> <20130729143209.GL901145@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> <20130806111256.GF95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 13:18:38 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Bradley To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: [homenet] source routing requirements for routing protocols X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 12:18:47 -0000 On 6 August 2013 12:40, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 8:12 PM, David Lamparter wrote: >> >> Indeed I failed to take Linux's routing cache into account. (Basically, >> since I was testing interactively in a shell, I was too slow to trigger >> this issue.) > > > I thought the routing cache was gone on recent-enough linux kernels? > Only the IPv4 cache was removed; the IPv6 routing cache still exists for now. -- Robert Bradley From mellon@fugue.com Tue Aug 6 05:36:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA2321F995A for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 05:36:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BfGJvYmw6B4L for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 05:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D8621F9967 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 05:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (123.sub-70-215-12.myvzw.com [70.215.12.123]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 051A22380867; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 08:36:32 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <38DC3DE3-0F8B-4B5D-BAD6-62A5CDC92854@fugue.com> References: <299A6036-19CD-4C54-BC85-143D43B5BDBB@fugue.com> To: Ole Troan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Michael Richardson , Chris Grundemann Subject: Re: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 12:36:55 -0000 > please read = http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment/ > before we start building spanning trees with DHCP. Ole, this comment is not constructive. It's really frustrating to make = a technical suggestion that I think will improve the implementation, and = get back a response like this. I've read Jari's draft, and I think = it's potentially a good idea. However, the hipnet guys seem to feel = that it's not mature enough yet, so they want to go forward with an = intermediate solution. I would like that intermediate solution to not be obviously broken, so = I'm suggesting that what is defined in the hipnet document be fleshed = out to the point where someone could actually implement it. That's why = I made the suggestion I made. If you think it was a bad suggestion, either because something bad will = happen if it is implemented, or because there is a better alternative, = then make your case. Don't just make vague references to spanning = trees and claim that that's what I'm proposing, when it is not. If your point is that a network built the way I described will be more = brittle than one done with OSPF, I think you are right, and I would = prefer the OSPF model, when and if it is advanced as a standard. But = it's not baked yet, and the hipnet guys want something now. We can do = this now, with very little additional glue, and it will be better than = what we have, and will not badly break a homenet once you guys have = finished defining what a homenet is. To be clear, a remark like this is absolutely useless: > I'm in favour of hipnet as an intermediate step for a restricted = topology. e.g. two routers in series, with only one CER (that can = potentially be multi-homed). You aren't making a technical argument here. Maybe there's a technical = argument for the conclusion you are stating, but you have not expressed = it. Instead, you appear to be marking territory: "I can accept hipnet = as long as it's obviously limited and will break in obvious ways when = customers plug hipnet routers together in any topology other than this." So if you think there's a good reason for doing things the way you have = said, _and_ you can think of a way to specify this so that it breaks = predictably, _and_ the hipnet guys agree to do what you have said, then = we can talk. Otherwise, I would like it if we could make the hipnet = router spec tight enough to avoid blatant brokenness. The cascading centralized prefix delegation model definitely has = problems. There will be cases where the end user has to power cycle = all the routers to win. I don't like this. I think it's a sufficient = sales pitch for homenet that we don't need to worry that a hipnet router = will be "good enough" and prevent further work on homenet. I just want = old hipnet routers to not break homenets, and this allows that to = happen. As an example of what I am talking about, suppose you have a homenet = router on the edge, then a non-relaying hipnet router, then a homenet = router. How does the leaf homenet router discover the existence of the = edge homenet router? I think it doesn't. It's an island. With a = relaying hipnet router, the leaf router can discover the edge router = with a DHCP option and use that to bootstrap OSPF around the hipnet = router. To me this capability seems like a win, but you are arguing = that it is a lose. Why? From equinox@diac24.net Tue Aug 6 05:50:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE01921F8C0C for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 05:50:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.48 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.48 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.120, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2O2e-VKrpn+X for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 05:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spaceboyz.net (spaceboyz.net [IPv6:2001:8d8:870:1000::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E5CA21F8BD8 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 05:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2001:8d8:81:5c2::] (helo=jupiter.n2.diac24.net) by spaceboyz.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1V6giC-000882-U2; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 14:50:05 +0200 Received: from equinox by jupiter.n2.diac24.net with local (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1V6gi0-0032I1-Bf; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 14:49:54 +0200 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 14:49:52 +0200 From: David Lamparter To: Lorenzo Colitti Message-ID: <20130806124952.GI95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> References: <6856.1375095717@sandelman.ca> <10806.1375097238@sandelman.ca> <20130729143209.GL901145@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> <20130806111256.GF95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Teco Boot , Pierre PFISTER Subject: Re: [homenet] source routing requirements for routing protocols X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 12:50:09 -0000 On Tue, Aug 06, 2013 at 08:40:57PM +0900, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 8:12 PM, David Lamparter wrote: > > > Indeed I failed to take Linux's routing cache into account. (Basically, > > since I was testing interactively in a shell, I was too slow to trigger > > this issue.) > > > > I thought the routing cache was gone on recent-enough linux kernels? So thought I, but apparently that only happened for IPv4. No idea what the kernel guys' plan for IPv6 is in this regard... From otroan@employees.org Tue Aug 6 06:43:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772CF21F9A1E for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 06:43:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ybpItkkkKL8g for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 06:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from banjo.employees.org (banjo.employees.org [198.137.202.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF2D21F9DCE for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 06:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-lys02-vla252-10-147-116-74.cisco.com (64-103-25-233.cisco.com [64.103.25.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by banjo.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 746C45F84; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 06:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <38DC3DE3-0F8B-4B5D-BAD6-62A5CDC92854@fugue.com> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 15:43:04 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <95D8A280-0D98-42E8-81DC-533A05647C4C@employees.org> References: <299A6036-19CD-4C54-BC85-143D43B5BDBB@fugue.com> <38DC3DE3-0F8B-4B5D-BAD6-62A5CDC92854@fugue.com> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Michael Richardson , Chris Grundemann Subject: Re: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 13:43:12 -0000 Ted, > If you think it was a bad suggestion, either because something bad = will happen if it is implemented, or because there is a better = alternative, then make your case. Don't just make vague references to = spanning trees and claim that that's what I'm proposing, when it is not. how do you then propose to deal with a topology with loops? http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-grundemann-homenet-hipnet-01 seems to = be building a spanning tree. a spanning tree will work, it will just not use the links in network = effectively. depending on topology. I'd also be interested to see what convergence times you are seeing in = hipnet. cheers, Ole= From lorenzo@google.com Tue Aug 6 07:58:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A91F11E80D1 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 07:58:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f+bMoMB2s28Z for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 07:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qe0-x235.google.com (mail-qe0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c02::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B7E21F9FF6 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 07:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qe0-f53.google.com with SMTP id f6so266832qej.40 for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 07:58:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=hms3Q1+Z8xlSSXigJrdJaGCyTvnFK+UipzARCj+8eYQ=; b=KJCf5tX5vnUwjOxB1QCDHPbO31HQ2Y6VbphSZr8SYXttaP6eC5/1RkuKjsAutmib8J +8VDVmXHLfc7rzAkJhJy174W6ti7VGT5CJPp/I2tZGzGL+jWFYXT3iUO8+xCRA2SQwps A845J0WyJIP9qBR7HMcirDRpbU+xBLc48OU3bUd1MSrvw3k2bfGB94L5iIRQgSusS0hL 32U1qeReDQtVeV6jNqej/Q28TgOgTOg0OUJDHgnNghDNQ/CPxXWcl1dPCa27Z8cpqxWw zycW67w/gRXfqpVz3ko2FP+j3TPB0Ha0YMyQbrMxG8HAymRer6oytc7ta+RkakY2jrFs 1Dzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=hms3Q1+Z8xlSSXigJrdJaGCyTvnFK+UipzARCj+8eYQ=; b=j5yEG85jvlZN92y+BtJ/ywXpxOxWN0rTFHxU/0EF+eeHL29T89zKxmg869JZsGPfSg w5jtVVT40g9mdfCvlteUHTMJajaNWuZlGIsjHPDoENmjXAZQvGb0hMkClBirOBDKTBBe AJECiLu5JFR8kd/Oh96jMr1lFTuiG2NXG7Vhpq0gDV9O2yOqWb7hXjsenXwUkNRCC5Zg lNEJrG416j7he+CynbjgwUaYOc1a5AVS1zSn4ZXBlBfj0idq15NRiCoGhcHWkMRD/1+N FZZgoKSDq7eZ76hO66WM3P8YL16QgVMrOIqf4XM3fPY63mcoHilrc5ffeVLbVy4QOfvP LVqg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmodjIhbjEQInrG/wPTZ8NTV2lwGtsJzQmbQ6j5puyhAjhtA7kcAH82N4vmP7OT4PggLz8C77O7wEpSRcTlhe8JD076TmWZz8JxN1NNWJ8Ut/VIuszROfq0t6gJXdX0ynvWsxAFtiwtAAVfPpv/5uUK4oyYaeAXo0vGMpmZw1D/WM0IBWWoYaDUghKeX1LaPp8vFxMD X-Received: by 10.224.53.196 with SMTP id n4mr3812785qag.104.1375801136865; Tue, 06 Aug 2013 07:58:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.47.137 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 07:58:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130806124952.GI95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> References: <6856.1375095717@sandelman.ca> <10806.1375097238@sandelman.ca> <20130729143209.GL901145@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> <20130806111256.GF95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> <20130806124952.GI95257@jupiter.n2.diac24.net> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 23:58:36 +0900 Message-ID: To: David Lamparter Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133dde00b8dbd04e348aa62 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Teco Boot , Pierre PFISTER Subject: Re: [homenet] source routing requirements for routing protocols X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 14:58:59 -0000 --001a1133dde00b8dbd04e348aa62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:49 PM, David Lamparter wrote: > > I thought the routing cache was gone on recent-enough linux kernels? > > So thought I, but apparently that only happened for IPv4. No idea what > the kernel guys' plan for IPv6 is in this regard... > Unfortunately, it seems that their plan for IPv6 can generally be best described as "send patches". :-( --001a1133dde00b8dbd04e348aa62 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:49 PM, David Lamparter <equino= x@diac24.net> wrote:
>= I thought the routing cache was gone on recent-enough linux kernels?

So thought I, but apparently that only happened for IPv4. =A0No= idea what
the kernel guys' plan for IPv6 is in this regard...

Unfortunately, it s= eems that their plan for IPv6 can generally be best described as "send= patches". :-(
--001a1133dde00b8dbd04e348aa62-- From v6ops@globis.net Tue Aug 6 09:08:17 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6378B21F9AE3 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 09:08:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CbjrbB3kJDsg for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 09:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from globis01.globis.net (RayH-1-pt.tunnel.tserv11.ams1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f14:62e::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B328C21F9AA1 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 09:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB1F8700E6; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 18:08:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from globis01.globis.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.globis.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0GhPB2u5KGb3; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 18:08:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Rays-iMac-2.local (unknown [192.168.0.3]) (Authenticated sender: Ray.Hunter@globis.net) by globis01.globis.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AAA16870021; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 18:08:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <52011F5A.3090604@globis.net> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 18:07:54 +0200 From: Ray Hunter User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.8 (Macintosh/20130427) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Teco Boot References: <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF277DB@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> <70D8F697-DCC0-4900-A106-D9F0C16CD2B1@inf-net.nl> <51FFDD18.8000400@globis.net> <3B1E098F-F988-4E8D-95AB-A68D0E2D3702@inf-net.nl> In-Reply-To: <3B1E098F-F988-4E8D-95AB-A68D0E2D3702@inf-net.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Wes Beebee \(wbeebee\)" , Pierre PFISTER , "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 16:08:17 -0000 Teco Boot wrote: > > If all routers follow same rule, why would there be a loop? There wouldn't. We just need to make sure that they do all follow the same rules (apparently not the case currently). -- Regards, RayH From C.Grundemann@cablelabs.com Tue Aug 6 09:30:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EB921F9FFF for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 09:30:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 859wcf5IKISk for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 09:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E461C21E8053 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 09:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r76GUBAw021986; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 10:30:30 -0600 Received: from exchange.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.19) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Tue, 06 Aug 2013 10:30:10 -0600 (MDT) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) Received: from EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee]) by EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0146.000; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 10:30:13 -0600 From: Chris Grundemann To: "Townsley.net" Thread-Topic: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? Thread-Index: AQHOjfYm4YIz1Ts/N0uHBuZqgTzU3ZmETdAAgAALqICAAtQvAIAAIpIAgAEYToA= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 16:30:13 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <326E6A0B-CF0B-4062-9636-FE83E73BE253@townsley.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.6.130613 x-originating-ip: [10.5.0.27] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Approved: ondar Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Ted Lemon , Michael Richardson Subject: Re: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 16:30:39 -0000 DQoNCk9uIDUvQXVnLzEzIDExOjQ2IE1EVCwgIlRvd25zbGV5Lm5ldCIgPG1hcmtAdG93bnNsZXku bmV0PiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPg0KPkNocmlzLCB3aGF0IG11c3QgYmUgZG9uZSB0byBlbnN1cmUgdGhh dCBhdCBsZWFzdCB0aGUgY2FibGUgbGFicyBlUm91dGVycw0KPndpdGggREhDUHY2IFBEIGhhdmUg dGhlIENFUiBJRCBidWlsdCBpbiBmcm9tIGRheSBvbmU/DQoNCldlbGwsIEkgdGhpbmsgd2UgZmly c3QgbmVlZCB0byByZXZpZXcgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgQ0VSIGRyYWZ0IGFuZCBlbnN1cmUNCnRoYXQg aXQgbWVldHMgYWxsIG9mIG91ciBuZWVkcy4gQXNzdW1pbmcgdGhhdCBpdCBkb2VzIHdlIHdvdWxk IHdhbnQgdG8NCmFkdmFuY2UgdGhlIENFUl9JRCBkcmFmdCBpbiBESEMgYW5kIGFsc28gbWFrZSB0 aGUgb3B0aW9uIG1hbmRhdG9yeSBmb3INCmVSb3V0ZXJzICh0aGlzIGNhbiBiZSBkb25lIGluIHRo ZSBDYWJsZUxhYnMgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbikuDQoNCn5DaHJpcw0KDQo+DQo+LSBNYXJrDQo+DQo+ KFRodW1idHlwZWQpDQo+DQo+T24gNSBhb8O7dCAyMDEzLCBhdCAwODo0MywgQ2hyaXMgR3J1bmRl bWFubiA8Qy5HcnVuZGVtYW5uQGNhYmxlbGFicy5jb20+DQo+d3JvdGU6DQo+DQo+PiBNaWNoYWVs LCB0aGVyZSBpcyBhbHJlYWR5IGEgZHJhZnQgaW4gcGxhY2UgKENFUl9JRClbMV0sIGFuZCBpdCBp cw0KPj5hbHJlYWR5DQo+PiByZWZlcmVuY2VkIGluIHRoZSBISVBuZXQgZHJhZnRbMl0uIElmIHRo aXMgaXMgdGhlIG5lZWRlZCBkaXJlY3Rpb24sIEkNCj4+c2VlDQo+PiBubyByZWFzb24gdG8gc3Rh cnQgb3ZlciAtIGRvIHlvdT8NCj4+IA0KPj4gQ2hlZXJzLA0KPj4gfkNocmlzDQo+PiANCj4+IFsx XSAtIGh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1kb25sZXktZGhjLWNlci1pZC1v cHRpb24tMDENCj4+IFsyXSAtIGh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1ncnVu ZGVtYW5uLWhpcG5ldC0wMCNzZWN0aW9uLTQuMQ0KPj4gDQo+PiANCj4+IE9uIDMvQXVnLzEzIDIy OjMxIEdNVCswMjowMCwgIk1pY2hhZWwgUmljaGFyZHNvbiIgPG1jckBzYW5kZWxtYW4uY2E+DQo+ Pndyb3RlOg0KPj4gDQo+Pj4gDQo+Pj4gVGVkIExlbW9uIDxtZWxsb25AZnVndWUuY29tPiB3cm90 ZToNCj4+Pj4+IElmIHRpbWUgaXMgb2Ygc3VjaCBhbiBlc3NlbmNlIGhlcmUsICB0aGVuIGl0J3Mg bW9yZSBpbXBvcnRhbnQgdGhhdA0KPj4+IHRoZQ0KPj4+Pj4gb3B0aW9uDQo+Pj4+PiBiZSBlbWl0 dGVkIGluIE1lZGl1cyBjYXBhYmxlIENFUiBkZXZpY2VzLCBhbmQgdGhhdCBpdCBkZWNsYXJlDQo+ Pj4gIk1lZGl1cyINCj4+Pj4+IG9yICI+TWVkaXVzIiBjbGVhcmx5LCB0aGFuIHRoYXQgd2Uga25v dyB3aGF0IGV4YWN0bHkgYW4gSW50ZXJpb3INCj4+Pj4+IFJvdXRlciBuZWVkcyB0bw0KPj4+Pj4g KmRvKiB3aGVuIGl0IHNlZXMgdGhhdC4NCj4+PiANCj4+Pj4gSSBiZXQgaWYgeW91IHB1dCB5b3Vy IG1pbmQgdG8gaXQgeW91IGNvdWxkIGhhdmUgYSBzcGVjIGZvciB0aGlzDQo+Pj4gb3B0aW9uDQo+ Pj4+IHRocm91Z2ggdGhlIHByb2Nlc3MgaW4gc2l4IHdlZWtzIG9yIGxlc3MuICAgSSB3aWxsIGRv IG15IHBhcnQgdG8NCj4+Pj4gYWR2YW5jZSBpdCBxdWlja2x5IG9uY2UgaXQgcmVhY2hlcyB0aGUg SUVTRy4gIFdoeSBub3Qgc3RhcnQgbm93DQo+Pj4gaW5zdGVhZA0KPj4+PiBvZiBwcm9nbm9zdGlj YXRpbmcgYWJvdXQgaG93IGxvbmcgaXQgd2lsbCB0YWtlPyAgOykNCj4+PiANCj4+PiBDaHJpcywg aWYgeW91IHdhbnQgbWUgdG8sIEknbGwgc3RhcnQgdGhlIGRyYWZ0Lg0KPj4gDQo+PiBfX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPj4gaG9tZW5ldCBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+IGhvbWVuZXRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaG9tZW5ldA0KDQo= From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Aug 6 09:49:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 992F721F9E83 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 09:49:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.514 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.514 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id khdXD-upLla2 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 09:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA7D21F9E70 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 09:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB592016F; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 13:55:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id EFBF063A88; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 12:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE62163732; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 12:47:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Chris Grundemann In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Ted Lemon Subject: Re: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 16:49:09 -0000 --=-=-= Chris Grundemann wrote: > Michael, there is already a draft in place (CER_ID)[1], and it is already > referenced in the HIPnet draft[2]. If this is the needed direction, I see > no reason to start over - do you? > [1] - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-donley-dhc-cer-id-option-01 Thanks. I was unaware of that, as I guess I didn't follow the references. I want to suggest that in addition to the CER_ID, that the CER device announce a revision, e.g. Medius, that it is at. I'd like the non-CER routers to also emit this ID, stating that they are not the CER, and giving their revision. Ideally, they would also signal upwards as well. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUgEoooqHRg3pndX9AQLOMAQAjgXZoqi/12Hu73Vq0fxQvWPv67aBXqzu hoTVMo0TEF8AP2J/onpAN47GVyDzMVfk/D9QfEkO/8wN0TQYHeDAmzXH9k1IVJIG Yo7aJOs1pvwFdJQXvoWf4mlvTff5UwoZCNIbICHDaCWiCH9RsRrkDF5Rw2jlGEd+ QxzGxJgFTjo= =e19I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mellon@fugue.com Tue Aug 6 10:35:54 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D15E21E8086 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 10:35:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6oLPWMt0reYU for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 10:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E2A21F9F52 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 10:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:88a3::e142:dc7:d42b:8123] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:88a3:0:e142:dc7:d42b:8123]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 53A082380867; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 13:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <30749.1375807653@sandelman.ca> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 13:35:48 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7E5D8C09-D699-4615-B63F-E779E9486619@fugue.com> References: <30749.1375807653@sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Chris Grundemann Subject: Re: [homenet] Medius: additional DHCPv6 (PD) options needed? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 17:35:54 -0000 On Aug 6, 2013, at 12:47 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: > I'd like the non-CER routers to also emit this ID, stating that they = are not > the CER, and giving their revision. Ideally, they would also signal = upwards > as well. Michael, did you read my reply about this? Your response to Chris = suggests that you didn't grok it, if so. From jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr Wed Aug 7 03:26:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957BD21F9F13 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2013 03:26:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z+YXnJidRCe0 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2013 03:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B6D21E80BE for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2013 03:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/38117) with ESMTP id r77AQAlj029459; Wed, 7 Aug 2013 12:26:10 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 372F456B31; Wed, 7 Aug 2013 12:26:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id KASk2ei3Qbk0; Wed, 7 Aug 2013 12:26:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pirx.pps.jussieu.fr (user-31-175-167-223.play-internet.pl [31.175.167.223]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6003556B30; Wed, 7 Aug 2013 12:26:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=pirx.pps.jussieu.fr) by pirx.pps.jussieu.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V70wY-0001DW-H2; Wed, 07 Aug 2013 12:26:14 +0200 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2013 12:26:14 +0200 Message-ID: <87fvulvltl.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ray Hunter In-Reply-To: <51FD27CE.1070602@globis.net> References: <9515564336C5B442A00021645539CFCC2AF22426@xmb-rcd-x08.cisco.com> <51F93828.1030107@gmail.com> <2F25A799-C7E4-49EC-9D70-A556532466D8@darou.fr> <51FD27CE.1070602@globis.net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Wed, 07 Aug 2013 12:26:13 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 520220C2.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 520220C2.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 520220C2.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] longest-match (was: source routing requirements for routing protocols) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2013 10:26:51 -0000 > 4 different opinions on how to implement the longest match algorithm for > (source,destination) next hop selection. > 1. Two step matching destination first [...] > 2. Two step matching source first [...] > 3. Single step longest match with Fuzzy aspects [...] > 4. Source-based routing will never work for locally originated packets I was under the impression that there is consensus that (1) is the right semantics, at least for Homenet. As far as I understand, (4) is just a description of a limitation/bug in the Linux kernel; Lorenzo will correct me if I've misunderstood, but I'm pretty sure he's not actually advocating this semantics. I do not understand proposal (3). Proposal (2) is technically correct, but will require inserting additional routes into the routing domain in most realistic topologies. (I suspect it can be done automatically in a distributed fashion, but I haven't thought about it seriously.) > Is there a serious risk here that we may get forwarding loops, It is clear that (1) and (2) cannot coexist in the same network, since they will cause persistent routing loops in most realistic topologies. See the last paragraph of Section 2.2.2 in draft-boutier for an example. The general case is described in Section 4.2. > packets dropped by filters due to incorrect egress gateway selection, As mentioned before, this will happen in a hybrid network (ordinary next-hop routers mixed with dest-source routers) if the dest-source subgraph is not connected. I consider this as a mild form of failure, much preferable to persistent routing loops. -- Juliusz From ogud@ogud.com Thu Aug 8 06:21:28 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1578921F93E1 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 06:21:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.150, BAYES_50=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Qg5mvagUId1 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 06:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp81.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (smtp81.ord1c.emailsrvr.com [108.166.43.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0ECA21F9A14 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 06:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id F2B23501A0 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 09:21:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: OK Received: by smtp3.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: ogud-AT-ogud.com) with ESMTPSA id 9D4F350154 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 09:21:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Olafur Gudmundsson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 09:21:36 -0400 To: homenet@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Subject: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2013 13:21:28 -0000 Once in a while we still hear statements like "we can not do X on = CPE/small box as they are not powerful enough". Many CPE's sold now are using SoC (System on Chip) with single core that = runs somewhere in the 400-600Mz=20 range either a ARM or MIPS based, this is slow compared to the 4 core = 2.8 GHz chip in my laptop.=20 At the same time It is important to remember that the CPU's powering = these devices are faster than the Server Class CPU's sold a little over a decade ago (compare it = with R14000 that introduced in 2001) .=20 R14000 class chips were powerful enough for the Internet of the time, = thus they should be powerful enough for the small=20 Internet in Jari's house as it is not as large as the Internet was in = 2000 :-) at least not yet. A more important factor is the size of the memory on the devices, a box = with 8MB memory will have problem with running many services, but many boxes sold today have 32-128MB memory (both = NVRAM and RAM) =20 These 64MB+ boxes have space for services like:=20 a routing protocol,=20 real DNSSEC authoritative server, validating DNS resolver a full DHCP server,=20 a SIP server=20 NTP server=20 all at the same time with memory left over. See my blog post from about a year ago:=20 = https://www.dnssec-deployment.org/index.php/2012/03/is-a-70-router-fast-en= ough-for-dnssec/ We use this device as the main validating resolver for our small office.=20= If history is any indicator we can expect to have 1GHz SoC in the CPE = devices soon. Moral: do not constrain homenet requirements by yesterdays devices.=20 Olafur From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Thu Aug 8 13:54:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26CD911E8231 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 13:54:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.513 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.513 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ovH1t++Wbj0C for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 13:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BAA111E8235 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 13:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id fa1so4057142pad.33 for ; Thu, 08 Aug 2013 13:54:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ErFCGcB7qLsnfOR1q5uv4VQ67YyFDKjKoZGEiVQFn/Y=; b=atf7oNzJo9XNq8RTggthn9Db0DEVXqDYxcT0slwXw8sM694SKZFL0+pBwOvbYAn6r3 mLd/8RBGmPsB+IRUVsbyDBe4cg+/LDoksxJ6tXesXpGi+7tqrkOVCYGbx+XZTGdflSHb c37gLqcxAGANt6pqcyRvjr+u7TZ15vqzpwQCAbAW5kHsDfUdc0jG6Wpnew+RhFD95ETV 96qU4C9Lkn3VsauSfMxE8dM9ofFUDGFe3hdWjRL4AYnwqLUbAGK2sSdLiIAJj8pQjyOW RhM4tf66hrJYqvblwX/pcInwpdbSssV4S1Xzmr4tjCNIjj3WyOZW+mjSE9g6eihXVKxx Rsag== X-Received: by 10.66.25.232 with SMTP id f8mr8210865pag.25.1375995249271; Thu, 08 Aug 2013 13:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] (110.200.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.200.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id nv6sm16077540pbc.6.2013.08.08.13.54.07 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Aug 2013 13:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <52040577.4040707@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 08:54:15 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Olafur Gudmundsson References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2013 20:54:18 -0000 On 09/08/2013 01:21, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > Moral: do not constrain homenet requirements by yesterdays devices. Fair enough (after all, the IPv6 design is great for an end-of-era minicomputer). However, today's devices are overwhelmingly battery-powered, so even if compute power and memory are not the issues, electricity matters. Brian From frank.denhartog@tno.nl Thu Aug 8 18:49:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1CA21F9E99 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 18:49:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sMUSX3VAuD1V for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 18:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fromintouta.tno.nl (fromintouta.tno.nl [134.221.1.26]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801E611E8180 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 18:49:23 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,843,1367964000"; d="scan'208";a="12303336" Received: from unknown (HELO mail.tno.nl) ([134.221.225.221]) by mailhost1a.tno.nl with ESMTP; 09 Aug 2013 03:49:19 +0200 Received: from EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl ([169.254.1.173]) by EXC-CASHUB02.tsn.tno.nl ([134.221.225.221]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 03:49:19 +0200 From: "Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den" To: 'Olafur Gudmundsson' , "'homenet@ietf.org'" Thread-Topic: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices Thread-Index: AQHOlDpCFNaJe4dOM0W40QnmwxCbr5mMFWzA Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 01:49:19 +0000 Message-ID: <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> Accept-Language: en-US, nl-NL Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [134.221.225.191] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 01:49:30 -0000 At the same time, new and much smaller devices are introduced in the home. = E.g. light bulbs (or rather LEDs nowadays) with IPv6 capability on a 256 kB= - 32 MHz chip. Maybe we should define a baseline definition of what we mea= n with "small device" anno 2013 to frame the homenet arch discussions and d= ocuments. Regards, Frank. = -----Original Message----- From: homenet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Olafur Gudmundsson Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 3:22 PM To: homenet@ietf.org Subject: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices Once in a while we still hear statements like "we can not do X on CPE/small= box as they are not powerful enough". Many CPE's sold now are using SoC (System on Chip) with single core that ru= ns somewhere in the 400-600Mz range either a ARM or MIPS based, this is slo= w compared to the 4 core 2.8 GHz chip in my laptop. = At the same time It is important to remember that the CPU's powering these = devices are faster than the Server Class CPU's sold a little over a decade = ago (compare it with R14000 that introduced in 2001) . = R14000 class chips were powerful enough for the Internet of the time, thus = they should be powerful enough for the small Internet in Jari's house as it= is not as large as the Internet was in 2000 :-) at least not yet. A more important factor is the size of the memory on the devices, a box wit= h 8MB memory will have problem with running many services, but many boxes s= old today have 32-128MB memory (both NVRAM and RAM) These 64MB+ boxes have = space for services like: = a routing protocol, = real DNSSEC authoritative server, validating DNS resolver a full DHCP server, = a SIP server = NTP server all at the same time with memory left over. See my blog post from about a year ago: = https://www.dnssec-deployment.org/index.php/2012/03/is-a-70-router-fast-eno= ugh-for-dnssec/ We use this device as the main validating resolver for our small office. = If history is any indicator we can expect to have 1GHz SoC in the CPE devic= es soon. Moral: do not constrain homenet requirements by yesterdays devices. = Olafur _______________________________________________ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet This e-mail and its contents are subject to the DISCLAIMER at http://www.tn= o.nl/emaildisclaimer From mellon@fugue.com Thu Aug 8 19:11:58 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DAC721F9C34 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 19:11:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nKk396stb4ge for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 19:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC9521F9B07 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 19:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.10.40] (c-174-62-147-182.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [174.62.147.182]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A15A523814DB; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 22:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1793.4\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 22:11:39 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> To: "Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1793.4) Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 02:11:58 -0000 On Aug 8, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den = wrote: > At the same time, new and much smaller devices are introduced in the = home. E.g. light bulbs (or rather LEDs nowadays) with IPv6 capability on = a 256 kB - 32 MHz chip. Maybe we should define a baseline definition of = what we mean with "small device" anno 2013 to frame the homenet arch = discussions and documents. Regards, Frank.=20 Do bear in mind that Olafur is talking about home routers here, not = lightbulbs. From henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de Thu Aug 8 22:54:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7E1A21F9E2B for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 22:54:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XXMkzZbFUsEw for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 22:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de (mailguard.fkie.fraunhofer.de [IPv6:2001:638:401:102:1aa9:5ff:fe5f:7f22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55F821F9E33 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2013 22:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufsun5.fkie.fgan.de ([128.7.2.5] helo=mailhost.fkie.fraunhofer.de) by a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1V7feV-0001ps-Bh for homenet@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Aug 2013 07:54:19 +0200 Received: from mailserv2bcas.fkie.fraunhofer.de ([128.7.96.56] helo=mailserv2.fkie.fraunhofer.de) by mailhost.fkie.fraunhofer.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1V7feV-0000k8-98 for homenet@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Aug 2013 07:54:19 +0200 Received: from [128.7.5.36] (128.7.5.36) by MAILSERV2BCAS.lorien.fkie.fgan.de (128.7.96.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 07:54:19 +0200 Message-ID: <52048409.5000800@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 07:54:17 +0200 From: Henning Rogge User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130623 Thunderbird/17.0.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030503030700020003070400" X-Originating-IP: [128.7.5.36] X-Virus-Scanned: yes (ClamAV 0.97.8/17651/Fri Aug 9 04:39:09 2013) by a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de X-Scan-Signature: cf4e294f566e9b0166dbdd65a574298f Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 05:54:26 -0000 --------------ms030503030700020003070400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08/09/2013 04:11 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Aug 8, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den wrote: >> At the same time, new and much smaller devices are introduced in the h= ome. E.g. light bulbs (or rather LEDs nowadays) with IPv6 capability on a= 256 kB - 32 MHz chip. Maybe we should define a baseline definition of wh= at we mean with "small device" anno 2013 to frame the homenet arch discus= sions and documents. Regards, Frank. > > Do bear in mind that Olafur is talking about home routers here, not lig= htbulbs. From a RAM/CPU perspective no current home routers should have a=20 problem with IPv6. Its just that some manufacturers don't integrate the=20 necessary components into their basic firmware. I think IPv6 support should be mandatory for Homenet routers. Maybe they = won't have an uplink to the Internet with IPv6, maybe they have some=20 attached devices without IPv6, but the software on the core Homenet=20 routers should have access to IPv6. Henning Rogge --=20 Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany Telefon +49 228 9435-961, Fax +49 228 9435 685 mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de --------------ms030503030700020003070400 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIUYDCC BC4wggMWoAMCAQICAgEMMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMHExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkRFMRwwGgYDVQQK ExNEZXV0c2NoZSBUZWxla29tIEFHMR8wHQYDVQQLExZULVRlbGVTZWMgVHJ1c3QgQ2VudGVy MSMwIQYDVQQDExpEZXV0c2NoZSBUZWxla29tIFJvb3QgQ0EgMjAeFw0wNzEyMDUxNTE4NTha Fw0xOTA2MzAyMzU5NTlaMGcxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkRFMRMwEQYDVQQKEwpGcmF1bmhvZmVyMSEw 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5+d+pfjzsfzq for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 01:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail41.extendcp.co.uk (mail41.extendcp.co.uk [79.170.44.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589B721F9F50 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 01:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [94.116.120.243] (helo=[10.38.240.170]) by mail41.extendcp.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80.1) id 1V7hrN-0007xr-MI for homenet@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Aug 2013 09:15:45 +0100 Message-ID: <5204A533.50908@gridmerge.com> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 09:15:47 +0100 From: Robert Cragie Organization: Gridmerge Ltd. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030402000005090205000006" X-Authenticated-As: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 08:16:13 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030402000005090205000006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, but who's to say a light bulb won't be a home router? 6LoWPAN ND=20 and RPL introduce the the concept of 6LRs and RPL Routers respectively,=20 which are generally small devices (i.e. around the figures Frank=20 mentions below) with a single wireless network interface. These devices rarely seem to be considered in the homenet WG but will=20 surely be part of a home network. Robert On 09/08/2013 03:11, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Aug 8, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den wrote: >> At the same time, new and much smaller devices are introduced in the h= ome. E.g. light bulbs (or rather LEDs nowadays) with IPv6 capability on a= 256 kB - 32 MHz chip. Maybe we should define a baseline definition of wh= at we mean with "small device" anno 2013 to frame the homenet arch discus= sions and documents. Regards, Frank. > Do bear in mind that Olafur is talking about home routers here, not lig= htbulbs. > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > --------------ms030402000005090205000006 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIILUDCC BRowggQCoAMCAQICEG0Z6qcZT2ozIuYiMnqqcd4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwga4xCzAJBgNV BAYTAlVTMQswCQYDVQQIEwJVVDEXMBUGA1UEBxMOU2FsdCBMYWtlIENpdHkxHjAcBgNVBAoT FVRoZSBVU0VSVFJVU1QgTmV0d29yazEhMB8GA1UECxMYaHR0cDovL3d3dy51c2VydHJ1c3Qu Y29tMTYwNAYDVQQDEy1VVE4tVVNFUkZpcnN0LUNsaWVudCBBdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBhbmQg RW1haWwwHhcNMTEwNDI4MDAwMDAwWhcNMjAwNTMwMTA0ODM4WjCBkzELMAkGA1UEBhMCR0Ix GzAZBgNVBAgTEkdyZWF0ZXIgTWFuY2hlc3RlcjEQMA4GA1UEBxMHU2FsZm9yZDEaMBgGA1UE 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tqZx1OidJhiWE7YcQQpyRF9fr6NPD9xix7RoqLwoBW8YC0/S2y8BSTRb4UXOXUTx+S/+Lvhe su48nJJtT7bdZldMzNoulMkL1sKh22g1OXB/pCJzNdEaFgXpRUpaks1MXW085ErIOy9Iec7n Xs/3ahcAAAAAAAA= --------------ms030402000005090205000006-- From bs@stepladder-it.com Fri Aug 9 02:35:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02BA21F9F4F for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 02:35:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sLQBnAZNPy33 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 02:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speedpartner.de (mail.speedpartner.de [IPv6:2a01:198::3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88ABC21F9F34 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 02:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.speedpartner.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B215560AA4 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 11:35:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.speedpartner.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.speedpartner.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o-5hwwLPJAiQ for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 11:35:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from stepladder-it.com (port-83-236-238-169.static.qsc.de [83.236.238.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: mxbot@stepladder-it.com) by mail.speedpartner.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8D89360750 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 11:35:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ip6-localhost ([::1] helo=natrix) by stepladder-it.com with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V7j5B-0002ys-Di for homenet@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Aug 2013 09:34:05 +0000 From: Benedikt Stockebrand To: "'homenet\@ietf.org'" References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 09:34:05 +0000 In-Reply-To: <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> (F. T. H. den Hartog's message of "Fri, 9 Aug 2013 01:49:19 +0000") Message-ID: <87d2pnp5rm.fsf@stepladder-it.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 02:39:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 09:35:11 -0000 Hi Frank and list, "Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den" writes: > At the same time, new and much smaller devices are introduced in the > home. E.g. light bulbs (or rather LEDs nowadays) with IPv6 capability > on a 256 kB - 32 MHz chip. let me get into a little more detail on this and put this into a different perspective: - The ATmega 328P microcontroller used on an Arduino Uno has 32 kB of flash memory and 2 kB of RAM. - There is an implementation of a USB 1.1 interface plus the "application" logic to convert between USB and RS-232 called V-USB. To my knowledge (I haven't come around to testing it) this runs on an Atmel ATtiny 2313 with 2 kB of flash and 128 bytes of RAM/CPU registers. - The ATtiny 2313 is one of the bigger types in the ATtiny family of microcontrollers. The smallest I've ever checked out is the ATtiny 13 with 512 bytes of flash and 64 bytes of RAM; considering the price at which it is sold, I'd guess this is an immensely popular chip, probably because it is the smallest one that can be programmed in-system. - Below the ATtiny 13 there are some even more limited models that need to be programmed out-of-circuit. These are too impractical for my needs, but if I was building some sort of mass product I'd take some pains to actually make things work on these if possible. - Power consumption increases squarely with the clock frequency. The Arduino Uno has a fixed 16 MHz quartz; the application notes for various Atmel microcontrollers point out it is possible to run them on 32.768 kHz using a standard realtime clock quartz to minimize power consumption. I don't think that a full-blown TCP/IP stack can compete with USB, or possibly even ZigBee/802.15.4, or RS-232/422/485, when it comes to resource usage. Any vendor building embedded systems who has the choice between using say an ATtiny 2313 or an ARM SoC running some sort of embedded Linux for a product will go for the t2313. If they didn't they'd be fatally incompetitive When it comes to general-purpose, freely programmable devices we go for some excess resources to allow a wider variety of programs to run---no matter if we talk smart phones or supercomputers. But with fixed-purpose devices, which may also include low-end CPE routers, it is essential for the vendor to cut all the excess resources in the system not needed for the fixed job it is designed for. > Maybe we should define a baseline definition of what we mean with > "small device" anno 2013 to frame the homenet arch discussions and > documents. That may be a good idea. Another key difference between fixed purpose devices and general purpose ones is that you see little if any growth in resources. A baseline microcontroller-equipped washing machine from today shouldn't have a significantly more powerful microcontroller than one from ten years ago. We may have a good chance that such a baseline might be useful for a fairly reasonable period. What I think is absolutely essential however is something else: When it comes to embedded/microcontroller/fixed-purpose/"Internet-of-Things" devices, then we have to come to grips with the associated hardware and its limitations. If every lightbulb in a house needs its own Raspberry Pi league controller, few people could possibly afford that. This is a rather fundamental matter of mindset, not only in homenet, but also in (at least) the 6lowpan/6lo contexts. Cheers, Benedikt PS: Disclaimer: So far I haven't even come around to taking a proper look at PIC microcontrollers, Contiki, ZigBee, 802.15.4 or any of the existing microcontroller based TCP/IP implementations... -- Business Grade IPv6 Consulting, Training, Projects Benedikt Stockebrand, Dipl.-Inform. http://www.stepladder-it.com/ From andrewmcgr@google.com Fri Aug 9 02:40:31 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8547E21F9F7A for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 02:40:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.810, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wx4tXRE0CZkh for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 02:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x236.google.com (mail-qa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::236]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7F721F9DDE for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 02:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id bv4so797576qab.20 for ; Fri, 09 Aug 2013 02:40:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=pL+WruDkvh9BdcGtks84+SzIKrIDQW2VcPKLS5vZo7I=; b=CoPDYuvKNrWajHg4ryCGUEO9956JfGCI5V/5FirL39/ZZOcNzyytqlCvYtfX2rkTUl Hm4XnfnBXOzuzMRyzlJwoaJsLoMY7CzWMMyZl9jusnZUAoWaBOsVyE1TTGI7YCppb+94 V5dL8WItYMxch+UkTOsHzvNCHrJVqBvT4+9iYaR4EKMxAJ69CRnjccv5ZPNSPHXgZk9i rlNky0mVVMS6VYW8lBLSm1g/PpUvABFdkfmtsYcgjvXhtgC6HvOj83vaBL4gtgnY97Bt tDiNWH5gdE44CXy7hX++hp55KHoFvIFGLJt5sKwOsq+yBagy9m2IXISVVxC2HPPj0ERn 8VWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=pL+WruDkvh9BdcGtks84+SzIKrIDQW2VcPKLS5vZo7I=; b=haCP75Nrtn5WZiFtlEKSDe5MYGgXiBVX3xB36w4C89SFMiamlUaVdWx+oAatZ1Q2Mk fTxfjvbiA2JTfS4/Vq8UX2Ph7bY0I3oLrMyzN3c+1bFR0+jLNTAnHd9eT+Phw9euf0rF Mm7K2cd0flKUsT0cx207uDTBzWINjJYRg3fga8XwRZpMw/7p81A9BfzS0FUQo23S+2Ag 9dZdKzMKHA/8FesmGCZi7qyUTh2sEOv7tCPMNec1hlbybr2u1pCi99kyeMOYYS/qurrB q7i1p7rklO5VlMIkLtJoSQyHlIEPszlBZ5DcEo5dWw7Khbk/iuL+E8dRV2taZnQDMzgY GD5w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm4y28dhGQR+ntrfCh302y4vXTDP9kO6pagLwKZ9jm1mOPow8wFLXe2sJG1GddXA0Ya1lZFyMttMlrGJ3e3wGxTcrrnvrXYiGfyjg9EhRYEisIohf2eOL0EcKuWEOuif1L91gBz6y0AtAUdAw13OdMlIoeYd0YhGV1uP53mTaTVqnKhqvYA8DHRk1+VwJN3FW4fwnM3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.171.69 with SMTP id g5mr10231145qaz.33.1376041230098; Fri, 09 Aug 2013 02:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.38.69 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 02:40:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5204A533.50908@gridmerge.com> References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> <5204A533.50908@gridmerge.com> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 11:40:30 +0200 Message-ID: From: Andrew Mcgregor To: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c22780b78b3c04e3809080 Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 09:40:31 -0000 --001a11c22780b78b3c04e3809080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Part of Homenet is to bring the typical home router's capabilities up to the level of a 6lowpan/roll router. I don't think we have a problem with the tiny devices, they're all very new and quite capable of fending for themselves in that kind of environment, given a sensibly implemented gateway into the homenet. On 9 August 2013 10:15, Robert Cragie wrote: > Yes, but who's to say a light bulb won't be a home router? 6LoWPAN ND and > RPL introduce the the concept of 6LRs and RPL Routers respectively, which > are generally small devices (i.e. around the figures Frank mentions below) > with a single wireless network interface. > > These devices rarely seem to be considered in the homenet WG but will > surely be part of a home network. > > Robert > > > On 09/08/2013 03:11, Ted Lemon wrote: > >> On Aug 8, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den < >> frank.denhartog@tno.nl> wrote: >> >>> At the same time, new and much smaller devices are introduced in the >>> home. E.g. light bulbs (or rather LEDs nowadays) with IPv6 capability on a >>> 256 kB - 32 MHz chip. Maybe we should define a baseline definition of what >>> we mean with "small device" anno 2013 to frame the homenet arch discussions >>> and documents. Regards, Frank. >>> >> Do bear in mind that Olafur is talking about home routers here, not >> lightbulbs. >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/homenet >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > -- Andrew McGregor | SRE | andrewmcgr@google.com | +61 4 8143 7128 --001a11c22780b78b3c04e3809080 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Part of Homenet is to bring the typical home router's = capabilities up to the level of a 6lowpan/roll router. =A0I don't think= we have a problem with the tiny devices, they're all very new and quit= e capable of fending for themselves in that kind of environment, given a se= nsibly implemented gateway into the homenet.


On 9 August 2= 013 10:15, Robert Cragie <robert.cragie@gridmerge.com> wrote:
Yes, but who's to say a light bulb won&#= 39;t be a home router? 6LoWPAN ND and RPL introduce the the concept of 6LRs= and RPL Routers respectively, which are generally small devices (i.e. arou= nd the figures Frank mentions below) with a single wireless network interfa= ce.

These devices rarely seem to be considered in the homenet WG but will surel= y be part of a home network.=

Robert


On 09/08/2013 03:11, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Aug 8, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den <frank.denhartog@tno.nl> = wrote:
At the same time, new and much smaller devices are introduced in the home. = E.g. light bulbs (or rather LEDs nowadays) with IPv6 capability on a 256 kB= - 32 MHz chip. Maybe we should define a baseline definition of what we mea= n with "small device" anno 2013 to frame the homenet arch discuss= ions and documents. Regards, Frank.
Do bear in mind that Olafur is talking about home routers here, not lightbu= lbs.

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
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homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet




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Andrew McGregor=A0|<= /span>=A0SRE=A0|=A0andrewmcgr@google.com=A0|=A0+61 4 8143 7128
--001a11c22780b78b3c04e3809080-- From acee.lindem@ericsson.com Fri Aug 9 03:45:01 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0636521F9F70 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 03:45:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3P6Di9tjvkc for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 03:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D41721F99CD for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 03:44:55 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c618062d-b7fc36d0000032ea-da-5204c81f8c82 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 58.00.13034.028C4025; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 12:44:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from EUSAAMB101.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.118]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.02.0328.009; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 06:44:47 -0400 From: Acee Lindem To: "" Thread-Topic: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices Thread-Index: AQHOlDo1Flqa0jS6s0iMrLw3Fed0CpmMX+yAgAAGPoCAAGW9gIAAKaAA Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 10:44:46 +0000 Message-ID: <94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE4702FEF6CA@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> <5204A533.50908@gridmerge.com> In-Reply-To: <5204A533.50908@gridmerge.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <12B4884EAAB5834BAB2E641EEA3C1EBE@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt67CCZYgg+eHRSzeLzrEYnFz3z1m ByaPO3+eMXssWfKTKYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugStjy4yN7AXbuCvubljJ3sC4jLOLkZNDQsBE 4s+XH6wQtpjEhXvr2boYuTiEBI4ySnx6d5oVwlnGKNH+5QUTSBWbgI7E80f/mEFsEQFHiS1b fzGC2MwC2hKTN88HiwsDTW3beJcRosZUYva6mVC2m0TD/VNg21gEVCSOfZ8CZvMK+ErMet8G tewio0Tr7ctgyziBhk7cMB+smRHovO+n1jBBLBOXuPVkPhPE2QISS/acZ4awRSVePv4H9Y6y xJIn+1kg6nUkFuz+xAZhW0tsO9rGBnP0soWvmSGOEJQ4OfMJywRG8VlIVsxC0j4LSfssJO2z kLQvYGRdxchRWpxalptuZLCJERhZxyTYdHcw7nlpeYhRmoNFSZx3ld6ZQCGB9MSS1OzU1ILU ovii0pzU4kOMTBycUg2MHX6rbX948PXJXrqiP6Fel7+cYbXPbw0NCfYPdyu8f9h3v1aL4g4r Udt8J1vZV4Elwehq1XppgbuSb88nzHLiPiE2SfMJ38c1zw0uyeW6fQy38Hwr0KjY5P/p3/2U zYpTZvUpZd5gSJrzZLc+19LaE9VG2aJ7Nol22GjYxF+8vvNCxpz8pldKLMUZiYZazEXFiQBH RRJ5egIAAA== Cc: "" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 10:45:01 -0000 Early on in this WG, we said the ROLL domain would connect to the homenet b= ut not replace it.=20 Acee=20 On Aug 9, 2013, at 4:15 AM, Robert Cragie wrote: > Yes, but who's to say a light bulb won't be a home router? 6LoWPAN ND and= RPL introduce the the concept of 6LRs and RPL Routers respectively, which = are generally small devices (i.e. around the figures Frank mentions below) = with a single wireless network interface. >=20 > These devices rarely seem to be considered in the homenet WG but will sur= ely be part of a home network. >=20 > Robert >=20 > On 09/08/2013 03:11, Ted Lemon wrote: >> On Aug 8, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den wrote: >>> At the same time, new and much smaller devices are introduced in the ho= me. E.g. light bulbs (or rather LEDs nowadays) with IPv6 capability on a 25= 6 kB - 32 MHz chip. Maybe we should define a baseline definition of what we= mean with "small device" anno 2013 to frame the homenet arch discussions a= nd documents. Regards, Frank. >> Do bear in mind that Olafur is talking about home routers here, not ligh= tbulbs. >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >>=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From robert.cragie@gridmerge.com Fri Aug 9 05:41:25 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E54121F9F9B for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 05:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ke01s7L4OTMj for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 05:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail41.extendcp.co.uk (mail41.extendcp.co.uk [79.170.44.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B897521F9FC6 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 05:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [94.116.120.243] (helo=[10.38.240.170]) by mail41.extendcp.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80.1) id 1V7m0C-0001c7-IV for homenet@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Aug 2013 13:41:08 +0100 Message-ID: <5204E366.2040903@gridmerge.com> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 13:41:10 +0100 From: Robert Cragie Organization: Gridmerge Ltd. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> <5204A533.50908@gridmerge.com> <94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE4702FEF6CA@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE4702FEF6CA@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms060402050201060003090805" X-Authenticated-As: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 12:41:25 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060402050201060003090805 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, IIRC this was with respect to the routing protocol and I agree=20 regarding that point. However, this is a discussion about capabilities=20 of home routers. Robert On 09/08/2013 11:44, Acee Lindem wrote: > Early on in this WG, we said the ROLL domain would connect to the homen= et but not replace it. > Acee > On Aug 9, 2013, at 4:15 AM, Robert Cragie wrote: > >> Yes, but who's to say a light bulb won't be a home router? 6LoWPAN ND = and RPL introduce the the concept of 6LRs and RPL Routers respectively, w= hich are generally small devices (i.e. around the figures Frank mentions = below) with a single wireless network interface. >> >> These devices rarely seem to be considered in the homenet WG but will = surely be part of a home network. >> >> Robert >> >> On 09/08/2013 03:11, Ted Lemon wrote: >>> On Aug 8, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den wrote: >>>> At the same time, new and much smaller devices are introduced in the= home. E.g. light bulbs (or rather LEDs nowadays) with IPv6 capability on= a 256 kB - 32 MHz chip. Maybe we should define a baseline definition of = what we mean with "small device" anno 2013 to frame the homenet arch disc= ussions and documents. Regards, Frank. >>> Do bear in mind that Olafur is talking about home routers here, not l= ightbulbs. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> homenet mailing list >>> homenet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > --------------ms060402050201060003090805 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIILUDCC BRowggQCoAMCAQICEG0Z6qcZT2ozIuYiMnqqcd4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwga4xCzAJBgNV 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required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5rHZxDERn65h for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 08:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7535721F8528 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 08:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:88a3::4cf0:1f20:f66f:bb8e] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:88a3:0:4cf0:1f20:f66f:bb8e]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1D4423808B6; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 11:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1793.4\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5204E366.2040903@gridmerge.com> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 11:52:52 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> <5204A533.50908@gridmerge.com> <94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE4702FEF6CA@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <5204E366.2040903@gridmerge.com> To: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1793.4) Cc: homenet@ietf.org, homenet@ietf.orgGroup Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 15:59:20 -0000 On Aug 9, 2013, at 8:41 AM, Robert Cragie = wrote: > OK, IIRC this was with respect to the routing protocol and I agree = regarding that point. However, this is a discussion about capabilities = of home routers. To be clear, if it's a discussion for homenet, it's probably a = discussion about homenet routers, not all routers that could exist in = the home. And it's certainly true that you could make your 6lowpan = router be a crappy little microcontroller device, but why would you? = It's got to connect to a wired network, so it's not entirely an LLN = device itself. It's likely that homenet routers in the future will = have an LLN interface if we start to see widespread deployment of = 6lowpan networks in the home. That said, if you wanted to implement a 6lowpan router as a very low = power device itself, you could do so, but it would have limitations, and = would not be capable of running a full homenet stack. That's okay, and = within the design goals (as I understand them) of the homenet = architecture. From joelja@bogus.com Fri Aug 9 09:18:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3321E21F9655 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 09:18:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1B56ZatWHwdy for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 09:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E7421F9AA4 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 09:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from joels-MacBook-Air.local (host-64-47-153-50.masergy.com [64.47.153.50]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r79GB9VC022204 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 9 Aug 2013 16:11:09 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <52051497.2080406@bogus.com> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 09:11:03 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:23.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/23.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com, homenet@ietf.org References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> <5204A533.50908@gridmerge.com> <94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE4702FEF6CA@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <5204E366.2040903@gridmerge.com> In-Reply-To: <5204E366.2040903@gridmerge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Fri, 09 Aug 2013 16:11:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 16:18:59 -0000 On 8/9/13 5:41 AM, Robert Cragie wrote: > OK, IIRC this was with respect to the routing protocol and I agree > regarding that point. However, this is a discussion about capabilities > of home routers. > Having worked in a couple equipment vendors, the contronl-plane/forwarding capacity of a router will be comensurate with the requirements. The question is not how slow or limited resource a router can I make, it's what are the expectations for this device? If it has 802.11ac out one side and gig-e on the other it's going to need a lot more horse power then if it does zigbee. A router for some set of 6lowpan segments may be resource constrained. which is fine, a homenet router would tend to have a different set of resource contraints given what it might be expected to do. What passes for a router today is a fairly powerful device by historical standards and I wouldn't expect the average homenet router to be less capable. > Robert > > On 09/08/2013 11:44, Acee Lindem wrote: >> Early on in this WG, we said the ROLL domain would connect to the >> homenet but not replace it. >> Acee >> On Aug 9, 2013, at 4:15 AM, Robert Cragie wrote: >> >>> Yes, but who's to say a light bulb won't be a home router? 6LoWPAN >>> ND and RPL introduce the the concept of 6LRs and RPL Routers >>> respectively, which are generally small devices (i.e. around the >>> figures Frank mentions below) with a single wireless network interface. >>> >>> These devices rarely seem to be considered in the homenet WG but >>> will surely be part of a home network. >>> >>> Robert >>> >>> On 09/08/2013 03:11, Ted Lemon wrote: >>>> On Aug 8, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den >>>> wrote: >>>>> At the same time, new and much smaller devices are introduced in >>>>> the home. E.g. light bulbs (or rather LEDs nowadays) with IPv6 >>>>> capability on a 256 kB - 32 MHz chip. Maybe we should define a >>>>> baseline definition of what we mean with "small device" anno 2013 >>>>> to frame the homenet arch discussions and documents. Regards, Frank. >>>> Do bear in mind that Olafur is talking about home routers here, not >>>> lightbulbs. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> homenet mailing list >>>> homenet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> homenet mailing list >>> homenet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >> _______________________________________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From frank.denhartog@tno.nl Fri Aug 9 18:57:17 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51EEE21F8FB4 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 18:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RQPWw2dnBh1t for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 18:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fromintouta.tno.nl (fromintouta.tno.nl [134.221.1.26]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94CB21F9D1C for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 18:52:43 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,849,1367964000"; d="scan'208";a="12342197" Received: from unknown (HELO mail.tno.nl) ([134.221.225.220]) by mailhost1a.tno.nl with ESMTP; 10 Aug 2013 03:52:40 +0200 Received: from EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl ([169.254.1.173]) by EXC-CASHUB01.tsn.tno.nl ([134.221.225.220]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Sat, 10 Aug 2013 03:52:40 +0200 From: "Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den" To: "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices Thread-Index: AQHOlDpCFNaJe4dOM0W40QnmwxCbr5mMFWzA///sKICAAGW9gIAAKaAAgAAghgCAADqkgIAAoKxY Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 01:52:38 +0000 Message-ID: <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1DD74@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> <5204A533.50908@gridmerge.com> <94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE4702FEF6CA@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <5204E366.2040903@gridmerge.com>,<52051497.2080406@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <52051497.2080406@bogus.com> Accept-Language: en-US, nl-NL Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [134.221.225.153] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 01:57:17 -0000 I'm not sure. I guess the ratio behind IPv6 and routing in the home is that= we expect the home to be stuffed with lots of small devices with limited n= etworking (L1, L2) capabilities. IPv6 and routing should increase the scala= bility of such networks. There is a case then for having more than one home= net router in the home. They should therefore be considerably cheaper than = some tens of $ which is what they cost today. Besides, there is limited phy= sical space in the home to deploy a multitude of dedicated homenet router d= evices. Embedding the functionality in other IPv6 devices thus makes sense.= Maybe the light bulb is stretching it somewhat, but I guess if we take the= specs of current low-end home routers or semi-managed switches as a baseli= ne, we should be pretty safe. I checked a few out: what about 200 MHz / 16 = MB as a baseline? = Frank ________________________________________ From: homenet-bounces@ietf.org [homenet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of joel= jaeggli [joelja@bogus.com] Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 6:11 PM To: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com; homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices On 8/9/13 5:41 AM, Robert Cragie wrote: > OK, IIRC this was with respect to the routing protocol and I agree > regarding that point. However, this is a discussion about capabilities > of home routers. > Having worked in a couple equipment vendors, the contronl-plane/forwarding capacity of a router will be comensurate with the requirements. The question is not how slow or limited resource a router can I make, it's what are the expectations for this device? If it has 802.11ac out one side and gig-e on the other it's going to need a lot more horse power then if it does zigbee. A router for some set of 6lowpan segments may be resource constrained. which is fine, a homenet router would tend to have a different set of resource contraints given what it might be expected to do. What passes for a router today is a fairly powerful device by historical standards and I wouldn't expect the average homenet router to be less capable. > Robert > > On 09/08/2013 11:44, Acee Lindem wrote: >> Early on in this WG, we said the ROLL domain would connect to the >> homenet but not replace it. >> Acee >> On Aug 9, 2013, at 4:15 AM, Robert Cragie wrote: >> >>> Yes, but who's to say a light bulb won't be a home router? 6LoWPAN >>> ND and RPL introduce the the concept of 6LRs and RPL Routers >>> respectively, which are generally small devices (i.e. around the >>> figures Frank mentions below) with a single wireless network interface. >>> >>> These devices rarely seem to be considered in the homenet WG but >>> will surely be part of a home network. >>> >>> Robert >>> >>> On 09/08/2013 03:11, Ted Lemon wrote: >>>> On Aug 8, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den >>>> wrote: >>>>> At the same time, new and much smaller devices are introduced in >>>>> the home. E.g. light bulbs (or rather LEDs nowadays) with IPv6 >>>>> capability on a 256 kB - 32 MHz chip. Maybe we should define a >>>>> baseline definition of what we mean with "small device" anno 2013 >>>>> to frame the homenet arch discussions and documents. Regards, Frank. >>>> Do bear in mind that Olafur is talking about home routers here, not >>>> lightbulbs. >>>> This e-mail and its contents are subject to the DISCLAIMER at http://www.tn= o.nl/emaildisclaimer From mellon@fugue.com Fri Aug 9 19:58:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B054211E814D for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 19:58:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uUKAKUFGGcF4 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 19:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED9221F9D23 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 19:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.10.40] (c-174-62-147-182.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [174.62.147.182]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5E6752380537; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 22:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1793.4\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1DD74@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 22:53:00 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <43878BF6-CFB7-4285-AE46-24BDD8B269C7@fugue.com> References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1D954@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> <5204A533.50908@gridmerge.com> <94A203EA12AECE4BA92D42DBFFE0AE4702FEF6CA@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <5204E366.2040903@gridmerge.com>, <52051497.2080406@bogus.com> <4A80242C19A4CB47987936B106A8BF7112A1DD74@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> To: "Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1793.4) Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 02:58:12 -0000 On Aug 9, 2013, at 9:52 PM, Hartog, F.T.H. (Frank) den = wrote: > There is a case then for having more than one homenet router in the = home. They should therefore be considerably cheaper than some tens of $ = which is what they cost today.=20 The goal of homenet is to produce routers that deliver full IPv6 = capabilities to homenets while preserving and improving upon the = pluggability of IPv4 NAT home routers. It is not to make home routers = cost <$10. I'm not saying that's a bad goal, or that nobody should work = on it. But if that's what you want to work on, you are probably in the = wrong working group. I encourage you to read the homenet architecture = document so as to familiarize yourself with the problem we are trying to = solve here: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-arch-10 From jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr Sun Aug 11 17:00:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD0C11E811B for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2013 17:00:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.042 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.042 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.207, BAYES_40=-0.185, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i5ExO1x9mz40 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2013 17:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C360811E8115 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2013 16:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/46333) with ESMTP id r7BNt166018469; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:55:01 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB3A56D63; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:55:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id J0Ab5S_NuwJ3; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:55:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pirx.pps.jussieu.fr (user-109-243-177-60.play-internet.pl [109.243.177.60]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F284756D60; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:54:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=pirx.pps.jussieu.fr) by pirx.pps.jussieu.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V8fTM-000182-GH; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:54:56 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:54:56 +0200 Message-ID: <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Olafur Gudmundsson In-Reply-To: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:55:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 52082455.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 52082455.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 52082455.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 00:00:19 -0000 > A more important factor is the size of the memory on the devices, > a box with 8MB memory will have problem with running many services, > but many boxes sold today have 32-128MB memory (both NVRAM and RAM) An additional point is that all home routers sold in the last 10 years or so have enough RAM to perform stateful NAT for hundreds of connections. Anything that can do stateful NAT can do IPv6 and link-state routing without effort. The community mesh networking community (ahem) has a lot of experience with cheap boxes. Henning will correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I am aware, - no box sold in the last few years has RAM issues (kernel+v4+v6+well implemented routing daemon fit in 32 Megs with plenty to spare); - some older boxes lack flash, this is not an issue on recent boxes; - some popular cheap boxes used to have power supply issues (overheating and crashing under load). As flash and RAM keep getting cheaper, I expect the power supply to increasingly become the main problematic component. -- Juliusz From henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de Mon Aug 12 00:15:58 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58ABE21F9F20 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 00:15:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EU+BQRt26XRD for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 00:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de (a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de [IPv6:2001:638:401:102:1aa9:5ff:fe5f:7f22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B8C21F9F6C for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 00:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufsun5.fkie.fgan.de ([128.7.2.5] helo=mailhost.fkie.fraunhofer.de) by a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1V8m8v-0007k6-Ux for homenet@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:02:17 +0200 Received: from mailserv2bcas.fkie.fraunhofer.de ([128.7.96.56] helo=mailserv2.fkie.fraunhofer.de) by mailhost.fkie.fraunhofer.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1V8m8v-0000nd-SH for homenet@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:02:17 +0200 Received: from [128.7.5.36] (128.7.5.36) by MAILSERV2BCAS.lorien.fkie.fgan.de (128.7.96.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:02:18 +0200 Message-ID: <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:02:16 +0200 From: Henning Rogge User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130803 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> In-Reply-To: <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000100040007090200070201" X-Originating-IP: [128.7.5.36] X-Virus-Scanned: yes (ClamAV 0.97.8/17669/Mon Aug 12 03:06:27 2013) by a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de X-Scan-Signature: 43fe4b22ce746091c894ec5715882e1d Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 07:15:58 -0000 --------------ms000100040007090200070201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08/12/2013 01:54 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> A more important factor is the size of the memory on the devices, >> a box with 8MB memory will have problem with running many services, >> but many boxes sold today have 32-128MB memory (both NVRAM and RAM) > > An additional point is that all home routers sold in the last 10 years > or so have enough RAM to perform stateful NAT for hundreds of > connections. Anything that can do stateful NAT can do IPv6 and > link-state routing without effort. > > The community mesh networking community (ahem) has a lot of experience > with cheap boxes. Henning will correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as > I am aware, > > - no box sold in the last few years has RAM issues (kernel+v4+v6+wel= l > implemented routing daemon fit in 32 Megs with plenty to spare); > - some older boxes lack flash, this is not an issue on recent boxes;= > - some popular cheap boxes used to have power supply issues > (overheating and crashing under load). > > As flash and RAM keep getting cheaper, I expect the power supply to > increasingly become the main problematic component. Older (and cheap) home-routers had typically 4 MB flash and 16 MB RAM.=20 You can run a dualstack router with routing protocol on this, but you=20 have to be a bit careful not to overdo bloated additional software. Many current home-routers have 32 MB RAM (some have more), some more=20 "expensive" ones (40$ and more) also upgrade the flash to 8 or 16 MB. Henning Rogge --=20 Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany Telefon +49 228 9435-961, Fax +49 228 9435 685 mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de --------------ms000100040007090200070201 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIUYDCC BC4wggMWoAMCAQICAgEMMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMHExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkRFMRwwGgYDVQQK ExNEZXV0c2NoZSBUZWxla29tIEFHMR8wHQYDVQQLExZULVRlbGVTZWMgVHJ1c3QgQ2VudGVy MSMwIQYDVQQDExpEZXV0c2NoZSBUZWxla29tIFJvb3QgQ0EgMjAeFw0wNzEyMDUxNTE4NTha Fw0xOTA2MzAyMzU5NTlaMGcxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkRFMRMwEQYDVQQKEwpGcmF1bmhvZmVyMSEw 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port 10024) with ESMTP id a2R5h+8NP9XA for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 806B021F9F7A for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 00:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 36A599C; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:49:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F80D9A; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:49:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:49:20 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Henning Rogge In-Reply-To: <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:15:18 -0000 On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Henning Rogge wrote: > Many current home-routers have 32 MB RAM (some have more), some more > "expensive" ones (40$ and more) also upgrade the flash to 8 or 16 MB. How much of this cost increase is due to the flash and RAM, and how much is due to more expensive other components plus the software development effort to perhaps drive additional features these more expensive devices bring? Personally I like the way CODEC WG approached this, by making a reference implementation available in source code in the standard. This is probably not practical for a complete homenet router, but at least my hope is that there will be freely available code that implementers can use so that just like they don't have to spend time to develop the linux kernel they're running on their devices, they don't have to develop (or buy) the routing control plane code (or forwarding for that matter), because it's already available. So hopefully even homenet coming out with being quite complex compared to todays NAT44 routers typically seen, it won't mean all CPE manufacturers have to develop all functionality from scratch. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de Mon Aug 12 02:57:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C75021F91CA for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 02:57:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aneT21dMtYbz for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 02:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de (a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de [IPv6:2001:638:401:102:1aa9:5ff:fe5f:7f22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBFA11E817E for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufsun5.fkie.fgan.de ([128.7.2.5] helo=mailhost.fkie.fraunhofer.de) by a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1V8nCD-0004Ey-KT; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:09:45 +0200 Received: from mailserv2bcas.fkie.fraunhofer.de ([128.7.96.56] helo=mailserv2.fkie.fraunhofer.de) by mailhost.fkie.fraunhofer.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1V8nCD-0001T1-Ho; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:09:45 +0200 Received: from [128.7.5.36] (128.7.5.36) by MAILSERV2BCAS.lorien.fkie.fgan.de (128.7.96.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:09:45 +0200 Message-ID: <52089842.1040609@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:09:38 +0200 From: Henning Rogge User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130803 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mikael Abrahamsson References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040802000801000502030504" X-Originating-IP: [128.7.5.36] X-Virus-Scanned: yes (ClamAV 0.97.8/17669/Mon Aug 12 03:06:27 2013) by a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de X-Scan-Signature: 63d11b563531d75ada9d42d73b6da78e Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:57:11 -0000 --------------ms040802000801000502030504 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08/12/2013 09:49 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Henning Rogge wrote: > >> Many current home-routers have 32 MB RAM (some have more), some more >> "expensive" ones (40$ and more) also upgrade the flash to 8 or 16 MB. > > How much of this cost increase is due to the flash and RAM, and how muc= h > is due to more expensive other components plus the software development= > effort to perhaps drive additional features these more expensive device= s > bring? How much of it is just "hey, this is the improved version"? We don't know= =2E For 80$ you already get routers with 8 MB flash and 128 MB ram. > Personally I like the way CODEC WG approached this, by making a > reference implementation available in source code in the standard. This= > is probably not practical for a complete homenet router, Why? A "homenet" package (most likely multiple packages) for OpenWRT as=20 a reference implementation would be a great thing. > but at least my > hope is that there will be freely available code that implementers can > use so that just like they don't have to spend time to develop the linu= x > kernel they're running on their devices, they don't have to develop (or= > buy) the routing control plane code (or forwarding for that matter), > because it's already available. And it might give consumers the chance to get a router with a reasonable = modern linux. Henning Rogge --=20 Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany Telefon +49 228 9435-961, Fax +49 228 9435 685 mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de --------------ms040802000801000502030504 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIUYDCC BC4wggMWoAMCAQICAgEMMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMHExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkRFMRwwGgYDVQQK ExNEZXV0c2NoZSBUZWxla29tIEFHMR8wHQYDVQQLExZULVRlbGVTZWMgVHJ1c3QgQ2VudGVy MSMwIQYDVQQDExpEZXV0c2NoZSBUZWxla29tIFJvb3QgQ0EgMjAeFw0wNzEyMDUxNTE4NTha Fw0xOTA2MzAyMzU5NTlaMGcxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkRFMRMwEQYDVQQKEwpGcmF1bmhvZmVyMSEw 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8JLtN58Fx7jh for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 03:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A660B21F8EE6 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 72F6B9C; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:44:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1A99A; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:44:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:44:13 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Henning Rogge In-Reply-To: <52089842.1040609@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> <52089842.1040609@fkie.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:19:51 -0000 On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Henning Rogge wrote: >> Personally I like the way CODEC WG approached this, by making a >> reference implementation available in source code in the standard. This >> is probably not practical for a complete homenet router, > > Why? A "homenet" package (most likely multiple packages) for OpenWRT as a > reference implementation would be a great thing. Well, I meant publishing the source code in the RFC text. I believe *WRT style implementation freely available is a great idea of course. > And it might give consumers the chance to get a router with a reasonable > modern linux. Exactly. I'm running CeroWRT on a WNDR3800 that I bought refurbished for 70USD. My hope is that in a few years when homenet is "done" this kind of device will be generally available at a lower price point new and available to everyone. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From teco@inf-net.nl Mon Aug 12 03:30:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A26A11E8121 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 03:30:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n18U+l4LOOIs for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 03:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ea0-f178.google.com (mail-ea0-f178.google.com [209.85.215.178]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D379F21F84F6 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ea0-f178.google.com with SMTP id a15so3331112eae.9 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:53:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=h+6+9YFG6sPdzVZdCoxcXw2AvPnSzAvCgOSuHh9eth4=; b=V8Xmh9Oa7tBzQVHpAJ8ZL5fDvCgKMOB4TKd5MbShCM/HBIxRplYU+EW6p3GoBcteVq C2Dum6bW6NUA78z96KZFgYI9HYckR7uhFE+LA1HIjOUKiFK/SpBPBAX1P5eMOGup+Zxa lFOfkqI2rV3zPeGrABQ7XquULXGiZSxy+AxR/QNorNOM35K4W7uh4FjZQsX+hAq3CX1z /8VZsgdyTQ5fC0Sq2LgT3fmWa10qbnERN3stVIBNJCt+3vqf9wcZGWkeQMhNy0dQ29kF 4v6rosXat1oeqEBM1SxQPIzTZyHv0HDByWRk5KkcMwipiGLQaOApvd/mY5pBYbEC5bd9 EGbw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmw3wN667mErlOpmXfleucI+iblTo2GSzRHGn3EcBXvTSdEQMspxarGUwhmMZ/20F3vlktQ X-Received: by 10.14.149.3 with SMTP id w3mr24848399eej.84.1376297594885; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.4.167] ([188.205.88.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id l47sm10980782eex.15.2013.08.12.01.53.13 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 12 Aug 2013 01:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:53:12 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> To: Mikael Abrahamsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Henning Rogge Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:30:55 -0000 Joel Jaeggli mentioned the forwarding performance. Today's homenets are = mainly single subnet with link-speed forwarding between (gig) ethernet = ports, in hardware. L3 forwarding in software with single uplink or WiFi = port at near to gig speed is doable. Forwarding in software on all ports = require a new generation of low power and cheap CPU, I think. So = probably use hardware forwarding as much as possible? Teco Op 12 aug. 2013, om 09:49 heeft Mikael Abrahamsson = het volgende geschreven: > On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Henning Rogge wrote: >=20 >> Many current home-routers have 32 MB RAM (some have more), some more = "expensive" ones (40$ and more) also upgrade the flash to 8 or 16 MB. >=20 > How much of this cost increase is due to the flash and RAM, and how = much is due to more expensive other components plus the software = development effort to perhaps drive additional features these more = expensive devices bring? >=20 > Personally I like the way CODEC WG approached this, by making a = reference implementation available in source code in the standard. This = is probably not practical for a complete homenet router, but at least my = hope is that there will be freely available code that implementers can = use so that just like they don't have to spend time to develop the linux = kernel they're running on their devices, they don't have to develop (or = buy) the routing control plane code (or forwarding for that matter), = because it's already available. >=20 > So hopefully even homenet coming out with being quite complex compared = to todays NAT44 routers typically seen, it won't mean all CPE = manufacturers have to develop all functionality from scratch. >=20 > --=20 > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From swmike@swm.pp.se Mon Aug 12 03:55:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94AD21E80E7 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 03:55:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.972 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.972 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.277, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xRJ7vkdEA6XX for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 03:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4045321F9DC6 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 02:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id E04F19C; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 11:40:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F099A; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 11:40:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 11:40:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:55:15 -0000 On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Teco Boot wrote: > Joel Jaeggli mentioned the forwarding performance. Today's homenets are > mainly single subnet with link-speed forwarding between (gig) ethernet > ports, in hardware. L3 forwarding in software with single uplink or WiFi > port at near to gig speed is doable. Forwarding in software on all ports > require a new generation of low power and cheap CPU, I think. So > probably use hardware forwarding as much as possible? Hardware assisted forwarding might be problematic due to us deciding on new functionality (source based routing for instance). I've read that in some routers the forwarding is done by microcode implemented by the hardware manufacturer, hindering the integrator (who buys the SoC in bulk) from doing what might be needed. So yes, forwarding performance is a concern, at least when we're talking above 100 megabit/s. I also think it would be beneficial if we could figure out as soon as possible what the requirements are on the forwarding plane, writing this down, so that hardware designers can avoid putting functionality into hardware that won't do what we need going forward. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de Mon Aug 12 04:42:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1198121E819C for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 04:42:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F0DeDpvIvRzP for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 04:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de (a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de [IPv6:2001:638:401:102:1aa9:5ff:fe5f:7f22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5FFC21F9FE9 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 04:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufsun5.fkie.fgan.de ([128.7.2.5] helo=mailhost.fkie.fraunhofer.de) by a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1V8puc-0003to-KN for homenet@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 13:03:46 +0200 Received: from mailserv2bcas.fkie.fraunhofer.de ([128.7.96.56] helo=mailserv2.fkie.fraunhofer.de) by mailhost.fkie.fraunhofer.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1V8puc-0002t4-Hq for homenet@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 13:03:46 +0200 Received: from [128.7.5.36] (128.7.5.36) by MAILSERV2BCAS.lorien.fkie.fgan.de (128.7.96.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.2.247.3; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 13:03:46 +0200 Message-ID: <5208C10E.9080702@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 13:03:42 +0200 From: Henning Rogge User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130803 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050205010200000601080304" X-Originating-IP: [128.7.5.36] X-Virus-Scanned: yes (ClamAV 0.97.8/17670/Mon Aug 12 09:12:24 2013) by a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de X-Scan-Signature: 43fe4b22ce746091c894ec5715882e1d Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 11:42:09 -0000 --------------ms050205010200000601080304 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08/12/2013 11:40 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Teco Boot wrote: > >> Joel Jaeggli mentioned the forwarding performance. Today's homenets >> are mainly single subnet with link-speed forwarding between (gig) >> ethernet ports, in hardware. L3 forwarding in software with single >> uplink or WiFi port at near to gig speed is doable. Forwarding in >> software on all ports require a new generation of low power and cheap >> CPU, I think. So probably use hardware forwarding as much as possible?= > > Hardware assisted forwarding might be problematic due to us deciding on= > new functionality (source based routing for instance). I've read that i= n > some routers the forwarding is done by microcode implemented by the > hardware manufacturer, hindering the integrator (who buys the SoC in > bulk) from doing what might be needed. > > So yes, forwarding performance is a concern, at least when we're talkin= g > above 100 megabit/s. > > I also think it would be beneficial if we could figure out as soon as > possible what the requirements are on the forwarding plane, writing thi= s > down, so that hardware designers can avoid putting functionality into > hardware that won't do what we need going forward. I agree, software forwarding should be the standard way. That makes it=20 also more easy to adapt different routing protocols to HOMENET. Henning Rogge --=20 Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany Telefon +49 228 9435-961, Fax +49 228 9435 685 mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de --------------ms050205010200000601080304 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIUYDCC BC4wggMWoAMCAQICAgEMMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMHExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkRFMRwwGgYDVQQK ExNEZXV0c2NoZSBUZWxla29tIEFHMR8wHQYDVQQLExZULVRlbGVTZWMgVHJ1c3QgQ2VudGVy MSMwIQYDVQQDExpEZXV0c2NoZSBUZWxla29tIFJvb3QgQ0EgMjAeFw0wNzEyMDUxNTE4NTha Fw0xOTA2MzAyMzU5NTlaMGcxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkRFMRMwEQYDVQQKEwpGcmF1bmhvZmVyMSEw 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port 10024) with ESMTP id 9TLgzRlGyibn for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 04:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B72E21E8130 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 04:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r7CB3Va0022855 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 04:03:34 -0700 Message-ID: <5208C103.9080700@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 04:03:31 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> <52089842.1040609@fkie.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1115; t=1376305414; x=1377169414; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Capabilities=20of=20small=2 0devices |Sender:=20 |To:=20homenet@ietf.org |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=mit/kqMQPm7xH63Tqu+6gzRkUDvyVuf+vkaTa5XHMZs=; b=bMmV/nKl0a6yoE9bZAD4tWiclanmhBDxjfLoClJ/VJrwIGZ21GxCRSw/nQ odbK/RHFL7SgspglQy2votS8SMjbGapOqa9lED4ZCKMObpSjZECQ7m/9SH5/ nmiqS2eiP0cVMEGAlEu6d5Jhq7YJd5FDFmxg4obyklthHcXQL0qws=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 11:42:14 -0000 On 08/12/2013 01:44 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > >> And it might give consumers the chance to get a router with a reasonable modern linux. > > Exactly. I'm running CeroWRT on a WNDR3800 that I bought refurbished for 70USD. My hope is that in a few years when homenet is "done" this kind of device will be generally available at a lower price point new and available to everyone. > I think that people would be more than happy to pay for beefed up home routers if they actually did something that is near and dear to their heart instead of things they don't understand. Like, oh say, was the controller to home automation, and other things like that. Or you could put headless android apps on it with pretty little ui's running on our phones. Routers have the desirable characteristic that they are typically on 24/7, don't move around, and could easily serve up web pages, etc, especially in a v6 world. Given how cheap ram/flash is these days, I doubt that you'd even have to pay much more if anything at all. Now when ISP's buy your router for you... a race to the bottom of course. Mike From lee.howard@twcable.com Mon Aug 12 08:48:04 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8757A21F9306 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:48:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.590, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rdGqT4FhZlmo for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcipgw01.twcable.com (cdcipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.91.110]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA5B21E80C3 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 07:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.15 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,862,1367985600"; d="scan'208";a="37890517" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB06.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.15]) by cdcipgw01.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 12 Aug 2013 10:43:46 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.78]) by PRVPEXHUB06.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.15]) with mapi; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:44:07 -0400 From: "Howard, Lee" To: Henning Rogge , "homenet@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:44:05 -0400 Thread-Topic: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices Thread-Index: Ac6XamUZA9OMIsMIQ96vGJpQ4gwHJA== Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5208C10E.9080702@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.5.130515 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 15:48:04 -0000 On 8/12/13 7:03 AM, "Henning Rogge" wrote: >On 08/12/2013 11:40 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >> On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Teco Boot wrote: >> >>> Joel Jaeggli mentioned the forwarding performance. Today's homenets >>> are mainly single subnet with link-speed forwarding between (gig) >>> ethernet ports, in hardware. L3 forwarding in software with single >>> uplink or WiFi port at near to gig speed is doable. Forwarding in >>> software on all ports require a new generation of low power and cheap >>> CPU, I think. So probably use hardware forwarding as much as possible? >> >> Hardware assisted forwarding might be problematic due to us deciding on >> new functionality (source based routing for instance). I've read that in >> some routers the forwarding is done by microcode implemented by the >> hardware manufacturer, hindering the integrator (who buys the SoC in >> bulk) from doing what might be needed. >> >> So yes, forwarding performance is a concern, at least when we're talking >> above 100 megabit/s. >> >> I also think it would be beneficial if we could figure out as soon as >> possible what the requirements are on the forwarding plane, writing this >> down, so that hardware designers can avoid putting functionality into >> hardware that won't do what we need going forward. > >I agree, software forwarding should be the standard way. That makes it >also more easy to adapt different routing protocols to HOMENET. You guys are trying to hard to engineer products. Figure out what it should do and how, and let implementers implement it. If you need implementers to tell you how to do it, let's get more of them in here. Lee This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout. From lee.howard@twcable.com Mon Aug 12 08:58:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E46E721E8191 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:58:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.138 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.138 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.814, BAYES_40=-0.185, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zdsZg4ss0oFm for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcipgw01.twcable.com (cdcipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.91.110]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A55E121E81DB for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:08:10 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.11 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,862,1367985600"; d="scan'208";a="37896782" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB02.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.11]) by cdcipgw01.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 12 Aug 2013 11:07:27 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.78]) by PRVPEXHUB02.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.11]) with mapi; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 11:07:47 -0400 From: "Howard, Lee" To: Michael Thomas , "homenet@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 11:07:46 -0400 Thread-Topic: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices Thread-Index: Ac6XbbQIXW+NbIJPTV+LBL5hZ0fbBQ== Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5208C103.9080700@mtcc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.5.130515 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 15:58:50 -0000 On 8/12/13 7:03 AM, "Michael Thomas" wrote: >On 08/12/2013 01:44 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >> >>> And it might give consumers the chance to get a router with a >>>reasonable modern linux. >> >> Exactly. I'm running CeroWRT on a WNDR3800 that I bought refurbished >>for 70USD. My hope is that in a few years when homenet is "done" this >>kind of device will be generally available at a lower price point new >>and available to everyone. >> > >I think that people would be more than happy to pay for beefed up home >routers You would be mistaken. Beyond my fundamental objection to the assumption that all routing devices will run a profile we create just because we say so, you assume that people have additional disposable income to spend on beefier home routers. The presumption here--that we can dictate to consumers what features they must buy--is breathtaking. And possibly a violation of trust and consumer protection laws in some places. No matter how low-profile the device specified by Homenet, it would be entirely possible to create a cheaper device with less functionality that still served many households. But such a device would not interoperate with the Homenet devices. >if they actually did something that is near and dear to their heart >instead of >things they don't understand. Like, oh say, was the controller to home >automation, >and other things like that. Or you could put headless android apps on it >with pretty >little ui's running on our phones. Routers have the desirable >characteristic that >they are typically on 24/7, don't move around, and could easily serve up >web >pages, etc, especially in a v6 world. Given how cheap ram/flash is these >days, >I doubt that you'd even have to pay much more if anything at all. > >Now when ISP's buy your router for you... a race to the bottom of course. Consumers are price-sensitive. ISPs sell what a sufficient number of consumers will buy. Retail electronics stores sell what a sufficient number of consumers will buy. There are many sub-$50 routers on shelves, because they sell well. Trying to add features so you can take lower-end routers off the market is not going to work, because people will buy what they want. Lee This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout. From mike@mtcc.com Mon Aug 12 09:24:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27F9821F9DFD for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:24:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.702, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fgnm0Ugzv7pV for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697B721E8157 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r7CFfDQf019288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:41:14 -0700 Message-ID: <52090219.60706@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:41:13 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Howard, Lee" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3012; t=1376322075; x=1377186075; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Capabilities=20of=20small=2 0devices |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Howard,=20Lee=22=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=tesRjrpMzp3tTVwigiXNBPo0AG3q/Jf5NQiLJBX8ecA=; b=Lt3JdIesEXJQlqV5zdSrkMKRmGnPrHcXQsy18rCcX/xJ0auNuVAXjn7fw/ ozlERz/faAuPLpgQS3xITGUN+zYMTyAJWEK4n/R2VBoi7uJfDaUQM1TTK1RL 0LKk5TYoNDIWt0KME66DCd5/1+jPYCILDZnkY/f23KxU4+3q1LXeM=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 16:24:20 -0000 On 08/12/2013 08:07 AM, Howard, Lee wrote: > > On 8/12/13 7:03 AM, "Michael Thomas" wrote: > > I think that people would be more than happy to pay for beefed up home > routers > > You would be mistaken. > > Beyond my fundamental objection to the assumption that all routing devices > will run a profile we create just because we say so, you assume that > people have additional disposable income to spend on beefier home routers. > > The presumption here--that we can dictate to consumers what features they > must buy--is breathtaking. And possibly a violation of trust and consumer > protection laws in some places. No matter how low-profile the device > specified by Homenet, it would be entirely possible to create a cheaper > device with less functionality that still served many households. But > such a device would not interoperate with the Homenet devices. Who's dictating anything? I said that if "routers" had features that people liked and could relate to, they'd pay for it. It's manifestly true: people now don't think twice about the $30/month for the data plans for their iphones -- because they like them and have features they can relate to. And routers are a fixed cost, rather than a monthly treadmill. > > > >> if they actually did something that is near and dear to their heart >> instead of >> things they don't understand. Like, oh say, was the controller to home >> automation, >> and other things like that. Or you could put headless android apps on it >> with pretty >> little ui's running on our phones. Routers have the desirable >> characteristic that >> they are typically on 24/7, don't move around, and could easily serve up >> web >> pages, etc, especially in a v6 world. Given how cheap ram/flash is these >> days, >> I doubt that you'd even have to pay much more if anything at all. >> >> Now when ISP's buy your router for you... a race to the bottom of course. > Consumers are price-sensitive. ISPs sell what a sufficient number of > consumers will buy. > Retail electronics stores sell what a sufficient number of consumers will > buy. There are many sub-$50 routers on shelves, because they sell well. > Trying to add features so you can take lower-end routers off the market is > not going to work, because people will buy what they want. > They're price sensitive to things that for all intents and purposes are the equivalent of an electrical outlet. And why shouldn't they? Homenet isn't going to change that one whit. But routers are hosts too... the same underlying "host" that drive all of their favorite things. If you want a router to be well endowed, let it moonlight as something people actually care about. What's really funny is that I kept hearing the same argument about cell phones too -- that they're super constrained with tiny amounts of ram/flash/display/etc. Now look at them. It's about features and utility. Apple took that fallacy right to the bank. Mike From jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr Mon Aug 12 10:00:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6469711E80F6 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:00:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R1IuF8Zd4v46 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C62D121F9A7D for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 09:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/38117) with ESMTP id r7CGeQYQ003106; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:40:26 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B95FE56DCD; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:40:26 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id qb-4XeMCdZXb; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:40:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pirx.pps.jussieu.fr (user-31-174-24-237.play-internet.pl [31.174.24.237]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8BED156D9A; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:40:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=pirx.pps.jussieu.fr) by pirx.pps.jussieu.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V8vAH-0001of-OT; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:40:17 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:40:17 +0200 Message-ID: <87haeug8we.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: "Howard, Lee" In-Reply-To: References: <5208C10E.9080702@fkie.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:40:27 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 52090FFA.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 52090FFA.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 52090FFA.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 17:00:36 -0000 > If you need implementers to tell you how to do it, let's get more of > them in here. I wonder how friendly this group would be to outsiders who come with working code? (No need to answer.) -- Juliusz From mellon@fugue.com Mon Aug 12 11:41:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D11DC21F9EDA for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 11:41:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QGry52ooTqZR for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 11:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A353E21F9ED2 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 11:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:88a3::64d8:35dc:39a4:bfd6] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:88a3:0:64d8:35dc:39a4:bfd6]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6EE832380431; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1793.4\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <87haeug8we.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:40:55 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <31D516AE-30F4-471D-856C-FB9ADCB9117C@fugue.com> References: <5208C10E.9080702@fkie.fraunhofer.de> <87haeug8we.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1793.4) Cc: "Howard, Lee" , homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:41:07 -0000 On Aug 12, 2013, at 12:40 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek = wrote: > I wonder how friendly this group would be to outsiders who come with > working code? In general we're pretty friendly, but working code that doesn't do what = we want can be reasonably thought of as a threat to forward progress, = and therefore not constructive. When it's not clear whether the code = does what we want, of course there is controversy. That's natural and = desirable. From lee.howard@twcable.com Mon Aug 12 13:49:00 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD1221F9D7B for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 13:49:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.434 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.434 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.703, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hI4DdO4UQJSX for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 13:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcipgw02.twcable.com (cdcipgw02.twcable.com [165.237.91.111]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5599E21F93BA for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 13:48:55 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.13 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,864,1367985600"; d="scan'208";a="31523119" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB04.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.13]) by cdcipgw02.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 12 Aug 2013 16:48:01 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.78]) by PRVPEXHUB04.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.13]) with mapi; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 16:48:41 -0400 From: "Howard, Lee" To: Michael Thomas Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 16:48:41 -0400 Thread-Topic: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices Thread-Index: Ac6XnVQdhsDKIPo9QyKA6cJOLVfCXA== Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <52090219.60706@mtcc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.5.130515 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 20:49:00 -0000 On 8/12/13 11:41 AM, "Michael Thomas" wrote: >On 08/12/2013 08:07 AM, Howard, Lee wrote: >> >> On 8/12/13 7:03 AM, "Michael Thomas" wrote: >> >> I think that people would be more than happy to pay for beefed up home >> routers >> >> You would be mistaken. >> >> Beyond my fundamental objection to the assumption that all routing >>devices >> will run a profile we create just because we say so, you assume that >> people have additional disposable income to spend on beefier home >>routers. >> >> The presumption here--that we can dictate to consumers what features >>they >> must buy--is breathtaking. And possibly a violation of trust and >>consumer >> protection laws in some places. No matter how low-profile the device >> specified by Homenet, it would be entirely possible to create a cheaper >> device with less functionality that still served many households. But >> such a device would not interoperate with the Homenet devices. > >Who's dictating anything? I said that if "routers" had features that >people liked and could relate to, they'd pay for it. It's manifestly >true: people now don't think twice about the $30/month for the >data plans for their iphones -- because they like them and have >features they can relate to. And routers are a fixed cost, rather than >a monthly treadmill. You're missing my point. Yes, some people will happily pay an extra $30 for a home router with new features. Others will not, or can not. We must interoperate with those others. Consider a variation: someone has a small, low-end network, and buys the cheapest gateway they can find. Some time later, they add another one, for whatever functional reason. Later, somehow another router finds its way into the network. Do we require them to rip and replace every device they have? Or do we expect that somehow all routers will support the Homenet profile, in case it's used later? It would depend on the size of the Homenet profile. But building a profile so large that we hope future hardware can handle it, or so large that a manufacturer can compete by excluding it and knocking $5 off the price, does not encourage interoperability. >> >>> if they actually did something that is near and dear to their heart >>> instead of >>> things they don't understand. Like, oh say, was the controller to home >>> automation, >>> and other things like that. Or you could put headless android apps on >>>it >>> with pretty >>> little ui's running on our phones. Routers have the desirable >>> characteristic that >>> they are typically on 24/7, don't move around, and could easily serve >>>up >>> web >>> pages, etc, especially in a v6 world. Given how cheap ram/flash is >>>these >>> days, >>> I doubt that you'd even have to pay much more if anything at all. >>> >>> Now when ISP's buy your router for you... a race to the bottom of >>>course. >> Consumers are price-sensitive. ISPs sell what a sufficient number of >> consumers will buy. >> Retail electronics stores sell what a sufficient number of consumers >>will >> buy. There are many sub-$50 routers on shelves, because they sell well. >> Trying to add features so you can take lower-end routers off the market >>is >> not going to work, because people will buy what they want. >> > >They're price sensitive to things that for all intents and purposes >are the equivalent of an electrical outlet. And why shouldn't they? >Homenet isn't going to change that one whit. But routers are hosts >too... the same underlying "host" that drive all of their favorite >things. If you want a router to be well endowed, let it moonlight >as something people actually care about. > >What's really funny is that I kept hearing the same argument about >cell phones too -- that they're super constrained with tiny amounts of >ram/flash/display/etc. Now look at them. It's about features and >utility. Apple took that fallacy right to the bank. Some people will pay more for additional features. But iPhones still have to interoperate with non-Apple phones like Android, feature phones, and rotary phones. Only half of all new phone sales are for smart phones: http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-smartphones-to-beat-feature -phone-sales-2013-6 (Note that feature phones are a healthy second-hand market, so even if they didn't drive sales, they would still be in wide use). Lee > >Mike This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout. From mike@mtcc.com Mon Aug 12 14:07:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8902421F9D01 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:07:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.468 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.468 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.131, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pOin4o4JiyNl for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E679721F93BA for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r7CL7NPl031038 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:07:23 -0700 Message-ID: <52094E8B.3020109@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:07:23 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Howard, Lee" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3171; t=1376341643; x=1377205643; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Capabilities=20of=20small=2 0devices |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Howard,=20Lee=22=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=g4LU8ICToYTS+APSwB6fw/TMfc2/l7vauX7YqBtOi9Q=; b=hWIUwhsOji+TBTwwdImVKMFwZdAFxaDwCaiK30+LHxLKk/60qRfr8YvBHm 2KIUAqTZeBEIykCYpxXFAcOuBdXy71scG8LyD5Yn+vAONRiB7zIpJXXT+UY4 JvTmXxASURir09sJaz47GmmyiJqgIguh5zUs0u67vjn4gFwvGt6cA=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 21:07:32 -0000 On 08/12/2013 01:48 PM, Howard, Lee wrote: > > On 8/12/13 11:41 AM, "Michael Thomas" wrote: > >> On 08/12/2013 08:07 AM, Howard, Lee wrote: >>> On 8/12/13 7:03 AM, "Michael Thomas" wrote: >>> >>> I think that people would be more than happy to pay for beefed up home >>> routers >>> >>> You would be mistaken. >>> >>> Beyond my fundamental objection to the assumption that all routing >>> devices >>> will run a profile we create just because we say so, you assume that >>> people have additional disposable income to spend on beefier home >>> routers. >>> >>> The presumption here--that we can dictate to consumers what features >>> they >>> must buy--is breathtaking. And possibly a violation of trust and >>> consumer >>> protection laws in some places. No matter how low-profile the device >>> specified by Homenet, it would be entirely possible to create a cheaper >>> device with less functionality that still served many households. But >>> such a device would not interoperate with the Homenet devices. >> Who's dictating anything? I said that if "routers" had features that >> people liked and could relate to, they'd pay for it. It's manifestly >> true: people now don't think twice about the $30/month for the >> data plans for their iphones -- because they like them and have >> features they can relate to. And routers are a fixed cost, rather than >> a monthly treadmill. > You're missing my point. Yes, some people will happily pay an extra $30 > for a home router with new features. Others will not, or can not. We must > interoperate with those others. > > Consider a variation: someone has a small, low-end network, and buys the > cheapest gateway they can find. Some time later, they add another one, > for whatever functional reason. Later, somehow another router finds its > way into the network. Do we require them to rip and replace every device > they have? Or do we expect that somehow all routers will support the > Homenet profile, in case it's used later? > It would depend on the size of the Homenet profile. But building a > profile so large that we hope future hardware can handle it, or so large > that a manufacturer can compete by excluding it and knocking $5 off the > price, does not encourage interoperability. > We're probably in violent agreement here. Today, cost is the only plausible market differentiator since most people don't anything about networking. So it's always a game of whether the step function on cogs supports X feature set (where one value of X is homenet in this particular case). But it's constantly bumping up against "can't afford it cuz need more ram/flash/processor). If, on the other hand, the routers *also* included some features that consumers could love and value beyond cost -- and sorry, nobody swoons for DHCP or OSPF -- then the pressure might be off the router functionality since it might be a relatively small footprints versus the added functionality (cf headless android). Maybe we're not quite at that inflection point just yet, but Moore's law keeps going and going and going... Mike From jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr Mon Aug 12 14:37:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F9421F9263 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:37:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YK8Aty51U+Va for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A55821F9FD6 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/46333) with ESMTP id r7CLagWq019346; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 23:36:45 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F9156DE8; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 23:36:42 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id WoB4F7-Y-6ok; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 23:36:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pirx.pps.jussieu.fr (user-188-33-196-23.play-internet.pl [188.33.196.23]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9FDE156DE6; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 23:36:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=pirx.pps.jussieu.fr) by pirx.pps.jussieu.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V8zn3-0002sE-TP; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 23:36:37 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 23:36:37 +0200 Message-ID: <87li46lhga.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Michael Thomas In-Reply-To: <52094E8B.3020109@mtcc.com> References: <52094E8B.3020109@mtcc.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Mon, 12 Aug 2013 23:36:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 5209556A.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5209556A.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5209556A.001 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 21:37:07 -0000 > Today, cost is the only plausible market differentiator since most > people don't anything about networking. [...] > If, on the other hand, the routers *also* included some features > that consumers could love and value beyond cost -- and sorry, nobody > swoons for DHCP or OSPF -- then the pressure might be off the router > functionality FWIW, the reason the WNDR3800 are such nice machines for running OpenWRT/CeroWRT is that the stock firmware includes functionality such as NAS, printer and webcam sharing, and a fancy web interface. (Not sure about BitTorrent support.) -- Juliusz From mike@mtcc.com Mon Aug 12 14:59:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B417921F85B3 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:59:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9TWlzjLusKOH for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE1421F9C20 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r7CLxmJQ016121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:59:48 -0700 Message-ID: <52095AD4.9000107@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 14:59:48 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juliusz Chroboczek References: <52094E8B.3020109@mtcc.com> <87li46lhga.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> In-Reply-To: <87li46lhga.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1102; t=1376344788; x=1377208788; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Capabilities=20of=20small=2 0devices |Sender:=20 |To:=20Juliusz=20Chroboczek=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=VDvb0/In4SD16lLICLKewG0Y1R6/OdyseYuG4Sr9NuY=; b=V9Rj+qF42WGZU43acsXqDaC2qs1erzB0U1Rbd/W/NAWKCFzce5StGSlx05 cShBbPuxyKlbGpI2o521rSS6UBsJYsfJj5ArEPfaWlydVgT7qhnhhzen8ieW 7PzgTP5kAi9xTmQE1/QYsJ66eOETrndLw/dTx2I9cojX5yhIDQOn4=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 21:59:53 -0000 On 08/12/2013 02:36 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> Today, cost is the only plausible market differentiator since most >> people don't anything about networking. > [...] > >> If, on the other hand, the routers *also* included some features >> that consumers could love and value beyond cost -- and sorry, nobody >> swoons for DHCP or OSPF -- then the pressure might be off the router >> functionality > FWIW, the reason the WNDR3800 are such nice machines for running > OpenWRT/CeroWRT is that the stock firmware includes functionality such > as NAS, printer and webcam sharing, and a fancy web interface. (Not > sure about BitTorrent support.) > Right, aside from the actual network hardware, your lowest schmuck android or iphone -- heck even an ipod -- could trivially support the ram/flash and cpu needs of a homenet router. Just add some things to make people give it a value beyond a strict cost equation and they'll judge it on that. "It's my home lighting station and security cams and turns on the garden watering... and I plug it right into the intert00bs!" Mike From marka@isc.org Mon Aug 12 17:59:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3230D21E8094 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 17:59:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.546 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.546 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.576, BAYES_00=-2.599, FB_INCREASE_VOL=3.629] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FOBUOLd0-ntM for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 17:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C90911E80F2 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 17:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9304C944E; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 00:59:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1376355583; bh=r2Lqey+18cKI+AyqooQHtVBZ4f+5hgjDpZBbQk60egM=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=l3DMkeBXYZ/KpON0nbBk/l70StXBiKn6VgxMjW/Mnmd0zDRcyhd4xM7P1jDR9D2aO +dLKdyrY2B69BN4EAwRRmyPFOhxhkiVO36riDtZgC6r8Acv7LPsnNQ1vExDYHcPCSh PMb5oXP2oIQV7Wq/89DfpXxv7n3NGgmk1yc6JkxI= Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 00:59:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76C3160437; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 01:04:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id oluWNcjH6qey; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 01:04:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 640CD160439; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 01:04:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (c211-30-183-50.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.183.50]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 003C3160438; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 01:04:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C493D3846181; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 10:59:24 +1000 (EST) To: "Howard, Lee" From: Mark Andrews References: In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 Aug 2013 11:07:46 -0400." Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 10:59:24 +1000 Message-Id: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-DCC--Metrics: post.isc.org; whitelist Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Michael Thomas Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 00:59:48 -0000 In message , "Howard, Lee" writes: > > > On 8/12/13 7:03 AM, "Michael Thomas" wrote: > > >On 08/12/2013 01:44 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > >> > >>> And it might give consumers the chance to get a router with a > >>>reasonable modern linux. > >> > >> Exactly. I'm running CeroWRT on a WNDR3800 that I bought refurbished > >>for 70USD. My hope is that in a few years when homenet is "done" this > >>kind of device will be generally available at a lower price point new > >>and available to everyone. > >> > > > >I think that people would be more than happy to pay for beefed up home > >routers > > > You would be mistaken. > > Beyond my fundamental objection to the assumption that all routing devices > will run a profile we create just because we say so, you assume that > people have additional disposable income to spend on beefier home routers. Today's routers have a NAT, packet inspecting firewall, DNS proxy, http server, dhcp server, dhcp client, dynamic DNS client, routing daemon and other stuff in a sub $50 box. The same CPU is quite capable of supporting a DNS server a DHCPv6 server, client, IPv6, etc. The only thing needed hardware wise is a little more flash and a little more ram. We are talking about a couple of additional dollars of hardware. There is absolutely no reason that the addition functionally can't be supplied at essentially the same price point. The problem is that most current IPv6 capable boxes shipping today also include 802.11 n/a/c often with multiple radios which is more expensive than 802.11b/g only boxes with a single radio. The additional flash and ram costs are insignificant compared with all the other costs. On top of that there are development costs which have been recovered for the 802.11b/g boxes. And how much markup they can squease out of those that need IPv6 today. If manufactures were willing to ship 802.11b/g only boxes with HOMENET they could be delivered at the same price point as the IPv4 only boxes are today within $1 or $2. > The presumption here--that we can dictate to consumers what features they > must buy--is breathtaking. And possibly a violation of trust and consumer > protection laws in some places. No matter how low-profile the device > specified by Homenet, it would be entirely possible to create a cheaper > device with less functionality that still served many households. But > such a device would not interoperate with the Homenet devices. And when you buy a cable / dsl modem it needs to meet a minimum set of functionality. This is no different. > >if they actually did something that is near and dear to their heart > >instead of > >things they don't understand. Like, oh say, was the controller to home > >automation, > >and other things like that. Or you could put headless android apps on it > >with pretty > >little ui's running on our phones. Routers have the desirable > >characteristic that > >they are typically on 24/7, don't move around, and could easily serve up > >web > >pages, etc, especially in a v6 world. Given how cheap ram/flash is these > >days, > >I doubt that you'd even have to pay much more if anything at all. > > > >Now when ISP's buy your router for you... a race to the bottom of course. > > Consumers are price-sensitive. ISPs sell what a sufficient number of > consumers will buy. > Retail electronics stores sell what a sufficient number of consumers will > buy. There are many sub-$50 routers on shelves, because they sell well. > Trying to add features so you can take lower-end routers off the market is > not going to work, because people will buy what they want. It really depends on the features you are adding. Software can generally be added at $0 as it can increase volume. > Lee -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From ajs@anvilwalrusden.com Mon Aug 12 18:17:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BDE11E80FE for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:17:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.367 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.367 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.207, BAYES_40=-0.185, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EQYeAdgaNDnc for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8163E11E80FA for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.yitter.info (c-75-69-155-67.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [75.69.155.67]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BB7F58A031 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 01:16:58 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 21:17:11 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 01:17:08 -0000 On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 10:59:24AM +1000, Mark Andrews wrote: > and a little more ram. We are talking about a couple of additional > dollars of hardware. There is absolutely no reason that the addition > functionally can't be supplied at essentially the same price point. > If manufactures were willing to ship 802.11b/g only boxes with > HOMENET they could be delivered at the same price point as the IPv4 > only boxes are today within $1 or $2. Just so I can be certain I've understood: "Manufacturers should either reduce their profits by $1 or $2 per unit shipped, or reduce the functionality that they offer, or both, in order to add a feature that I think is important but that their customers apparently won't pay a few dollars more for." Do I have that right? A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From mike@mtcc.com Mon Aug 12 18:21:25 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4841121E8096 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:21:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.104, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pQdsTkxAvKLu for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DEFB21E8099 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r7D1JFdb018045 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:19:15 -0700 Message-ID: <52098993.5050408@mtcc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:19:15 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Sullivan References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> In-Reply-To: <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=965; t=1376356755; x=1377220755; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Capabilities=20of=20small=2 0devices |Sender:=20 |To:=20Andrew=20Sullivan=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=L1/kJ2hUMh1eh2BDbFs47dtDHWmGvO4XdzTki466R3w=; b=eC3N4JLZOpKmbPnf0gqAZbt8WcED8JnH3qMv0jYfFaf0Xo4hCj/Zn9dsAK MRUMosX8CHIRTAudDcCjkHLB4MUUHOAOer0WzqcVj0vWtb/uIB9bAoqr5RZd r4kHYyd940NYAvdQtjThymVzG19GASUP5G5GsdQD7dyvaLJMa6BJQ=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 01:21:25 -0000 On 08/12/2013 06:17 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 10:59:24AM +1000, Mark Andrews wrote: >> and a little more ram. We are talking about a couple of additional >> dollars of hardware. There is absolutely no reason that the addition >> functionally can't be supplied at essentially the same price point. >> If manufactures were willing to ship 802.11b/g only boxes with >> HOMENET they could be delivered at the same price point as the IPv4 >> only boxes are today within $1 or $2. > Just so I can be certain I've understood: "Manufacturers should either > reduce their profits by $1 or $2 per unit shipped, or reduce the > functionality that they offer, or both, in order to add a feature that > I think is important but that their customers apparently won't pay a > few dollars more for." Do I have that right? > Let's keep in mind that flash/ram is a step function. Often the incremental cost is entirely in NRE. Mike From marka@isc.org Mon Aug 12 21:10:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8CC21E809E for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 21:10:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wDbGo+OuPOLw for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 21:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E44C11E8122 for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2013 21:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A4F7C944E; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 04:10:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=dkim2012; t=1376367052; bh=nPC1wOSZN7V9xFR4f676Zw80lgeWA1pOwDBhc0mKNcA=; h=To:Cc:From:References:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=eTXkBGAxVr6is4rsxLYXdoNcCtZmdsEKZOko3UyZg/g+Vd0MS1xJxopraO+gWNody aLoD0c5UOQJY2k3TVjsMvKHR4RLIAxlLIkFopZRESjNvm4n+7OESKhGJwYGu8gam5D B8Pmd95eNtT1LrHnkCS5Js5F1hbNwUIZSSn1CqZk= Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 04:10:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09196160436; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 04:15:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 6Yp1hArdSOsV; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 04:15:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97832160435; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 04:15:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (c211-30-183-50.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.183.50]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 69A3316032F; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 04:15:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3FE538466BC; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:15:29 +1000 (EST) To: Andrew Sullivan From: Mark Andrews References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 Aug 2013 21:17:11 -0400." <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:15:29 +1000 Message-Id: <20130813021529.A3FE538466BC@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-DCC--Metrics: post.isc.org; whitelist Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 04:10:57 -0000 In message <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info>, Andrew Sullivan writes: > On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 10:59:24AM +1000, Mark Andrews wrote: > > and a little more ram. We are talking about a couple of additional > > dollars of hardware. There is absolutely no reason that the addition > > functionally can't be supplied at essentially the same price point. > > > If manufactures were willing to ship 802.11b/g only boxes with > > HOMENET they could be delivered at the same price point as the IPv4 > > only boxes are today within $1 or $2. > > Just so I can be certain I've understood: "Manufacturers should either > reduce their profits by $1 or $2 per unit shipped, or reduce the > functionality that they offer, or both, in order to add a feature that > I think is important but that their customers apparently won't pay a > few dollars more for." Do I have that right? > > A I'm saying the price can be essentially the same. It may be a little bit more or it may be a little bit less to get more ram and flash. Most of the $50 boards were designed long ago which shows in their external connectivity. Small memory chips can actually be more expensive to purchase than larger chips. There is a assumption that HOMENET routers will be more expensive. They don't have to be. They are more complicated and have more software on them. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From teco@inf-net.nl Tue Aug 13 02:18:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146ED21E80F4 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 02:18:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qexv56bckXwA for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 02:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f180.google.com (mail-wi0-f180.google.com [209.85.212.180]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6286021E80E1 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 02:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f180.google.com with SMTP id f14so360304wiw.13 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 02:18:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=I3hBULB06SqLVuaN/ErLABvjrTdsuUUDrGDovn6uuew=; b=h08x6wmE5Oem8aCMgcni32V1ho/yxmcJG7BtMIYzeuhBgdRNFH7CXp2sb4Wktqav3t 8BfHiAZ7G9GfFDXKN779V7udXI7YhJhEJj62PgbhWbDhu7RDsp9fWEyqW18KeLo3Agx+ C1xnUWpBE9zRjaD0dtks2cC+gP6k4RMsNJW4/YqYuQBn8oftw+G+yvu2W2lflaaSCZBL qtPdTjO91Y91aPsCcg0zWaTu/kYzv/KfBmJz7c7oOUTOXFVgVyTtwyNOIjL2Im+VZxkV wQOQOnv67otVyHtpWiVhooWE/HAtRsIYJt586xwaQ2gLjDFktGgN0t4etCL3ZzG+vYLf N+gQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQllunmB4I078wSPCJwc4E7DVa3x+iwaPfgde2mKNchB51NNS2TzZYC1i9M0ezW7cn3wRycu X-Received: by 10.180.72.47 with SMTP id a15mr1980940wiv.63.1376385505820; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 02:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.4.167] ([188.205.88.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id dt17sm1996418wic.1.2013.08.13.02.18.24 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Aug 2013 02:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Teco Boot In-Reply-To: <20130813.011550.791636011692333018.davem@davemloft.net> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:18:23 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4E295AB9-0BC2-4407-8144-183618F278C0@inf-net.nl> References: <2A0809D4-EBF1-4646-9564-2B7F54956B41@inf-net.nl> <20130810120348.GP14001@order.stressinduktion.org> <190D21D2-F86E-46D2-93E8-3050F57FE622@inf-net.nl> <20130813.011550.791636011692333018.davem@davemloft.net> To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Subject: Re: [homenet] [PATCH net] ipv6: don't stop backtracking in fib6_lookup_1 if subtree does not match X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 09:18:40 -0000 A patch is queued for Linux kernel, fixing SADR for IPv6. Works well. I = think we shall put some effort to get this out. Then, we can get rid of = the ip rules hack. Patch: http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/patch/265288/ Could some verify the patch?=20 Help getting this out in the wild? Teco Op 13 aug. 2013, om 10:15 heeft David Miller het = volgende geschreven: > From: Teco Boot > Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 10:02:08 +0200 >=20 >> It is an important element in my work for v6 multi-homed networks >> (IETF Homenet WG). >=20 > You are one person. -stable inclusion is decided based how important = the > fix is to everyone in both good (fixes a bug) and bad (might cause a > regression) terms. >=20 > So "this is important for my work" is never a good reason for a patch > to be included into -stable. >=20 > To convince us, you're going to have to present an argument that > exists outside the very limited scope of your own self-interests. > And "other people might/will use my important work in the future" > is not sufficient either. >=20 > Thanks. >=20 >> this is my system: >> Linux ubuntu 3.8.0-27-generic #40 SMP Sat Aug 10 10:53:34 CEST 2013 = i686 i686 i686 GNU/Linux >> CONFIG_IPV6_SUBTREES=3Dy >> ... clean up for our experiment >> ... add a link-local >> ... add default >> ... add some source address specific defaults >> =3D=3D=3D=3D> now I have this routing table >> default from 2001:db8:10::/48 via fe80::10 dev eth0 metric 1024=20 >> default from 2001:db8:11::/48 via fe80::11 dev eth0 metric 1024=20 >> default from 2001:db8:12::/48 via fe80::12 dev eth0 metric 1024=20 >> fe80::1 dev eth0 proto kernel metric 256=20 >> default via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 1024=20 >> =3D=3D=3D=3D> show route to same destination >> 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:10::1 via fe80::10 dev eth0 src ::1 = metric 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:11::1 via fe80::11 dev eth0 src ::1 = metric 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:12::1 via fe80::12 dev eth0 src ::1 = metric 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:1::1 via fe80::ff dev eth0 src ::1 = metric 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:babe::1 from :: via fe80::ff dev eth0 src ::1 metric 0 \ = cache=20 >> =3D=3D=3D=3D> show route to different destinations >> 2001:db8:cafe::10 from 2001:db8:10::1 via fe80::10 dev eth0 src ::1 = metric 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:cafe::11 from 2001:db8:11::1 via fe80::11 dev eth0 src ::1 = metric 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:cafe::12 from 2001:db8:12::1 via fe80::12 dev eth0 src ::1 = metric 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:cafe::21 from 2001:db8:1::1 via fe80::ff dev eth0 src ::1 = metric 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:cafe::22 from :: via fe80::ff dev eth0 src ::1 metric 0 \ = cache=20 >> =3D=3D=3D=3D> now the route cache is >> 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:10::/48 via fe80::10 dev eth0 metric = 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:11::/48 via fe80::11 dev eth0 metric = 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:babe::1 from 2001:db8:12::/48 via fe80::12 dev eth0 metric = 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:babe::1 via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:cafe::10 from 2001:db8:10::/48 via fe80::10 dev eth0 metric = 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:cafe::11 from 2001:db8:11::/48 via fe80::11 dev eth0 metric = 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:cafe::12 from 2001:db8:12::/48 via fe80::12 dev eth0 metric = 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:cafe::21 via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ cache=20 >> 2001:db8:cafe::22 via fe80::ff dev eth0 metric 0 \ cache=20 >>=20 >=20 From rdroms.ietf@gmail.com Tue Aug 13 07:50:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D9421E8170 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 07:50:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 64A59oJGO-uV for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 07:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x22f.google.com (mail-ve0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B7821E816F for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 07:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f175.google.com with SMTP id oy10so6667062veb.20 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 07:50:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=Yi8tOV7vIah/3CW1tcsvpk5tw6Yomj0PIhednB72PoA=; b=iFmHhmpceYYmukqZCxgF75FNp+SVEFHPHkjgZ++kzjyDiMKYSUg4bc4VKSKfMoHD5M QXFv0tWrWPAqRm3NDk3qGvDA4yz5tMfuKYXxj27ulBgjMEAUmwDOThlLWMfJJfsKG/p8 ZXpXNyoJa5/1IkUtWaefEOcvZ6mzaDtj0j6WP9De0jllGNZputiXiMgNKJRpmrx8umiU 31sDDaoSFxTriiV6d/WtWxYzZIigQAlpoi006yX/MoFxSOk74daWFXKqdkFQ69j4Buo+ LSxGu4bGduxmkwqA8KAtGMW9IkkCSqSov1kQ+MdBEVX2x9Q8o40S59ixf2u/EXwUg30K W0fg== X-Received: by 10.52.35.171 with SMTP id i11mr4012483vdj.4.1376405440564; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 07:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.101.42.146] (mobile-198-228-197-207.mycingular.net. [198.228.197.207]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id eu9sm25364464vdb.1.2013.08.13.07.50.38 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Aug 2013 07:50:39 -0700 (PDT) References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10B350) From: Ralph Droms Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 10:50:36 -0400 To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:50:43 -0000 On Aug 12, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:= > On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 10:59:24AM +1000, Mark Andrews wrote: >> and a little more ram. We are talking about a couple of additional >> dollars of hardware. There is absolutely no reason that the addition >> functionally can't be supplied at essentially the same price point. >=20 >> If manufactures were willing to ship 802.11b/g only boxes with >> HOMENET they could be delivered at the same price point as the IPv4 >> only boxes are today within $1 or $2. >=20 > Just so I can be certain I've understood: "Manufacturers should either > reduce their profits by $1 or $2 per unit shipped, or reduce the > functionality that they offer, or both, in order to add a feature that > I think is important but that their customers apparently won't pay a > few dollars more for." Do I have that right? =20 Following up on "customers" and "features"... Exactly what features will a h= omenet router vendor be able to sell to customers? We all appreciate ZOSPF,= automated prefix assignment and addressing, traffic engineering around wire= less, etc. What are vendors going to sell to customers? Looking at one specific feature - could vendors provide routing in a router= available today that has wireless and wired interfaces? I think they could= but don't (I'd be happy to be told I'm wrong). If I've got it right, why d= on't vendors provide routing that would be a=20 marketable performance feature? - Ralph >=20 > A >=20 > --=20 > Andrew Sullivan > ajs@anvilwalrusden.com > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From mellon@fugue.com Tue Aug 13 08:12:00 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC3F11E80AD for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 08:12:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e+xLcOVqdtEr for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 08:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6EDB11E80A2 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 08:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:88a3::ed25:3cd1:2026:6b91] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:88a3:0:ed25:3cd1:2026:6b91]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E151223805A2; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1793.4\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:11:50 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> To: Ralph Droms X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1793.4) Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:12:00 -0000 On Aug 13, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Ralph Droms wrote: > Following up on "customers" and "features"... Exactly what features = will a homenet router vendor be able to sell to customers? We all = appreciate ZOSPF, automated prefix assignment and addressing, traffic = engineering around wireless, etc. What are vendors going to sell to = customers? It seems to me that the key feature of homenet routers, if we are = successful, will be fewer support calls. > Looking at one specific feature - could vendors provide routing in a = router available today that has wireless and wired interfaces? I think = they could but don't (I'd be happy to be told I'm wrong). If I've got = it right, why don't vendors provide routing that would be a=20 > marketable performance feature? You mean as opposed to bridging? I don't actually know how guest vlan = isolation is currently done, but I assume that it involves separate = subnets. From joelja@bogus.com Tue Aug 13 08:35:00 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237CE11E818A for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 08:35:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.562 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.562 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.037, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MjyZ17OI+hyK for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 08:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFBE411E8189 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 08:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from joels-MacBook-Air.local (c-24-5-127-59.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.5.127.59]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7DFXbWh074911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:33:37 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <520A51CC.4090208@bogus.com> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 08:33:32 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:23.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/23.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon , Ralph Droms References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:33:39 +0000 (UTC) Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 15:35:00 -0000 On 8/13/13 8:11 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Aug 13, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Ralph Droms wrote: >> Following up on "customers" and "features"... Exactly what features will a homenet router vendor be able to sell to customers? We all appreciate ZOSPF, automated prefix assignment and addressing, traffic engineering around wireless, etc. What are vendors going to sell to customers? > It seems to me that the key feature of homenet routers, if we are successful, will be fewer support calls. > >> Looking at one specific feature - could vendors provide routing in a router available today that has wireless and wired interfaces? yes... they do. in in fact the whole notion of wan interfaces meaning these boxes are presently routing. something like: http://www.netgear.com/home/products/wirelessrouters/high-performance/WNDR3700.aspx Is a pretty good example of a circa 2012 dual radio plus gigabit ethernet router with support for multiple subnets, guest ssids, limited ipv6 routing (it's currently got a /64 from comcast via PD and is doing RA +stateless dhcpv6) and nat. it was somewhat on the expensive side (more than $100 US then less than $100 now) but not dramaticailly so, I bought it at frys. This of course will be supplanted by one that provides 802.11ac thereby providing an incentive to upgrade. the openwrt wiki (I'm running the manufacturers firmware) tells me it's a AR9344 (which is a mips SOC) running at 560mhz with 128MB of RAM >> I think they could but don't (I'd be happy to be told I'm wrong). If I've got it right, why don't vendors provide routing that would be a >> marketable performance feature? > You mean as opposed to bridging? I don't actually know how guest vlan isolation is currently done, but I assume that it involves separate subnets. > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > From gettysjim@gmail.com Wed Aug 14 08:03:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070BD11E81F2 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:03:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qh49vOzzqxfC for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-x22a.google.com (mail-oa0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA5911E81DD for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id i18so13477234oag.29 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:03:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=MroyTLVh8higRME/mx/OZBYBuSPo5JGoclS1tajoQKw=; b=laWg4IhgRcoDhb3sm1Bzf66WVRe07wjIiej18x7KByrEKMWWHQuF48IBPDJABB154G Nx3sq28ZxL4uiBFF+8sywcq8bMAz4IkUVYAGbV2OOLDLJpkHfgEBslsVxcCOEawNz7s1 PIrSlwRJyL3mAGsDt4CWBHaWE35tjivCxdaMATtRx+UaJ8OdOwBEf99fOvAe5yGqbXrN LFsi5zH/GeZ9GD9I+W02jR+SDdGmYMouJQmzD795G1dyYhF3lwoin/Y5gZ3174JTa2D3 kLTmSbtAMNmXpNOqwe8q97wVSzJpmz4BLbV4szqH7dM9DJgbXuEJisdtB4VzdYAUZRPj 4S4Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.131.69 with SMTP id ok5mr2267762oeb.70.1376492633553; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.18.134 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:03:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <52040577.4040707@gmail.com> References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <52040577.4040707@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:03:53 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7UBY_fiYZHfHDeBXNvQmZ2j4I3s Message-ID: From: Jim Gettys To: Brian E Carpenter Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013cbb1875821004e3e9aa53 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:03:59 -0000 --089e013cbb1875821004e3e9aa53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 4:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 09/08/2013 01:21, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > > > Moral: do not constrain homenet requirements by yesterdays devices. > > Fair enough (after all, the IPv6 design is great for an end-of-era > minicomputer). > > However, today's devices are overwhelmingly battery-powered, so even > if compute power and memory are not the issues, electricity matters. > Your home router is not battery powered (except for if you run it off a battery back up system). The one I've measured consumes of order 5W, IIRC (WNRD3700v2). As noted, this is a 600Mhz SOC MIPS architecture (Atheros). This is now about 2 years old: more recent routers are yet higher performance. Relative to what you are used to on a desktop, the biggest performance differences are caused by having a small cache (making many interpreted languages relatively slow). Even so, it's much faster than most desktops/servers were not all that long ago, for integer codes. I believe the power consumption is often dominated by the 1G ethernet ports; a 1ghz SOC is only around 1W power consumption. Each ethernet port can consume significant power. If you use a USB port, it can also consume power (up to 2W). The WiFi may account for a watt or so of the consumption (it turns out that transmit and receive typically consume comparable amounts of power; the transmit power isn't significant relative to the power consumed by the signal processing that is done on receive). The WiFi devices in handheld devices may be somewhat more efficient (but also poorer performance: it pays to have a good radio in the router, where power is easy to come by.). - Jim > Brian > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > --089e013cbb1875821004e3e9aa53 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 4:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter <= ;brian.e.c= arpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 09/08/2013 01:21, Olafu= r Gudmundsson wrote:

> Moral: do not constrain homenet requirements by yesterdays devices.
Fair enough (after all, the IPv6 design is great for an end-of-era minicomputer).

However, today's devices are overwhelmingly battery-powered, so even if compute power and memory are not the issues, electricity matters.

Your home router is not battery powered (except for if you run it off = a battery back up system).

The one I've measured cons= umes of order 5W, IIRC (WNRD3700v2). =A0As noted, this is a 600Mhz SOC MIPS= architecture (Atheros). =A0This is now about 2 years old: more recent rout= ers are yet higher performance. Relative to what you are used to on a deskt= op, the biggest performance differences are caused by having a small cache = (making many interpreted languages relatively slow). =A0Even so, it's m= uch faster than most desktops/servers were not all that long ago, for integ= er codes.

I believe the power consumptio= n is often dominated by the 1G ethernet ports; a 1ghz SOC is only around 1W= power consumption. =A0Each ethernet port can consume significant power. = =A0If you use a USB port, it can also consume power (up to 2W).

The WiFi may account for a wat= t or so of the consumption (it turns out that transmit and receive typicall= y consume comparable amounts of power; the transmit power isn't signifi= cant relative to the power consumed by the signal processing that is done o= n receive). =A0The WiFi devices in handheld devices may be somewhat more ef= ficient (but also poorer performance: it pays to have a good radio in the r= outer, where power is easy to come by.).

- Jim



=


=A0 =A0Brian
_____________________= __________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--089e013cbb1875821004e3e9aa53-- From gettysjim@gmail.com Wed Aug 14 08:08:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC33E11E81F7 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:08:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.144 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.144 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.833, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z7ZCLg4g8PIB for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x233.google.com (mail-ob0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5C721E80C1 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f179.google.com with SMTP id fb19so12154881obc.10 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:08:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Wrd6TmCWjT5PCmjDCxm/OVmsnW3pPEb2XTo0drfEVxA=; b=gYjPHZp3yTZ0TZ5E9BRy7GAT1d175HtVpwL6DJRke2O6Dl4lFBkIsAmn2VS32MZthY 4aq8cQkoYVV5KDPp4n14AYOF3n1lA7+/CF3/FdDo7KpMi5oyJk9a13ylXepB0dYSEGY0 FeHt+d0rnQL81+TowkxBfKs3cH+xS11rKtmy0pv34iT6Oxt9Q7z8CI1hFk/wudS9dJE5 FwaA/yMq3JfuPJp836ngDUH2xOMmyqgN9dHc0QkvoX5cyAxNtHf1hknmeMbwqBgkNfPw NAm+yfNqqniXKRWu3bLGQh4nSQEfKh42pnY8CUUXfrzlAFlS5aVHxMh/Gciqn1GYCZTy c3lw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.237.107 with SMTP id vb11mr455729obc.84.1376492908513; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.18.134 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:08:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> <52089842.1040609@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:08:28 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Dj23fkub-nzwcg4P609d3xZLudw Message-ID: From: Jim Gettys To: Mikael Abrahamsson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1cd6ad9143b04e3e9ba16 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Henning Rogge Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:08:43 -0000 --e89a8ff1cd6ad9143b04e3e9ba16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 4:44 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Henning Rogge wrote: > > Personally I like the way CODEC WG approached this, by making a >>> reference implementation available in source code in the standard. This >>> is probably not practical for a complete homenet router, >>> >> >> Why? A "homenet" package (most likely multiple packages) for OpenWRT as a >> reference implementation would be a great thing. >> > > Well, I meant publishing the source code in the RFC text. I believe *WRT > style implementation freely available is a great idea of course. > > > And it might give consumers the chance to get a router with a reasonable >> modern linux. >> > > Exactly. I'm running CeroWRT on a WNDR3800 that I bought refurbished for > 70USD. My hope is that in a few years when homenet is "done" this kind of > device will be generally available at a lower price point new and available > to everyone. > > > The 3800 costs what it does in part due to having two radios (2.4 and 5ghz). A single radio router would be cheaper (but not interesting for a mesh network, due to 1/N performance with number of hops). > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > ______________________________**_________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/homenet > --e89a8ff1cd6ad9143b04e3e9ba16 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon= , Aug 12, 2013 at 4:44 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Henni= ng Rogge wrote:

Personally I like the way CODEC WG approached this, by making a
reference implementation available in source code in the standard. This
is probably not practical for a complete homenet router,

Why? A "homenet" package (most likely multiple packages) for Open= WRT as a reference implementation would be a great thing.

Well, I meant publishing the source code in the RFC text. I believe *WRT st= yle implementation freely available is a great idea of course.


And it might give consumers the chance to get a router with a reasonable mo= dern linux.

Exactly. I'm running CeroWRT on a WNDR3800 that I bought refurbished fo= r 70USD. My hope is that in a few years when homenet is "done" th= is kind of device will be generally available at a lower price point new an= d available to everyone.


The 3800 costs what it does in part due to havi= ng two radios (2.4 and 5ghz). =A0A single radio router would be cheaper (bu= t not interesting for a mesh network, due to 1/N performance with number of= hops).


--
Mikael Abrahamsson =A0 =A0email: swmike@swm.pp.se
_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--e89a8ff1cd6ad9143b04e3e9ba16-- From gettysjim@gmail.com Wed Aug 14 08:13:46 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B48C21E80C0 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:13:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.728 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.728 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.416, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UIGrGuX7J48h for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-x233.google.com (mail-oa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF43C21E8097 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id h1so13209205oag.38 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:13:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=k8R6krfosgD20UqVLjd1conFfJoX9k0i6wlHEPJDwZE=; b=BKYgSZm7beroYGPu9HpULLEQDqpKlX4PLCKferwrq2zM5li7EvBBgS/Yl9nYpQ74yc afEl7rm6PYVEvKU5XJGSp+2GBFzcjdu/do3kY4rTVtjcZQuo9u2XSeVX6H+c6P4bDXpA p+SzUBgC7qDCk//8oEDuVAlMgDyFHWS4glz/SVJYFkQ9GZEU90CGHG0xk2fHf6mqyqwY vbY1DHYAB6gFYHy5DVzgt4dHWsVb/bdIlRgVYtUzJhn0Ueb8EonxuhTd8EcyjhqDHf3w 2mFja1qQBU4/W0DJDFZI+iS2Vwap2f3C1WfGEZi+28bt6XStkgH2uYoSducEt+nXJPZ9 LyOQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.47.230 with SMTP id g6mr6365224oen.62.1376493223200; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.18.134 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:13:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:13:43 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5QMiARo0QaSMCxTHBppkBWS-3bY Message-ID: From: Jim Gettys To: Mikael Abrahamsson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2db589acf6404e3e9cda1 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Teco Boot Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:13:46 -0000 --001a11c2db589acf6404e3e9cda1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 5:40 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Teco Boot wrote: > > Joel Jaeggli mentioned the forwarding performance. Today's homenets are >> mainly single subnet with link-speed forwarding between (gig) ethernet >> ports, in hardware. L3 forwarding in software with single uplink or WiFi >> port at near to gig speed is doable. Forwarding in software on all ports >> require a new generation of low power and cheap CPU, I think. So probably >> use hardware forwarding as much as possible? >> > > Hardware assisted forwarding might be problematic due to us deciding on > new functionality (source based routing for instance). I've read that in > some routers the forwarding is done by microcode implemented by the > hardware manufacturer, hindering the integrator (who buys the SoC in bulk) > from doing what might be needed. > > So yes, forwarding performance is a concern, at least when we're talking > above 100 megabit/s. > Actually, I think (Dave Taht can tell us with data), that forwarding performance is fine even on today's routers up to 300-400Mbps on the WNDR3800 running CeroWrt (which routes, rather than bridging between interfaces).. The 600Mhz MIPS can't saturate a gigabit ethernet, however (at least not without using lots of hardware offload on the ethernet controller, which hurts latency and creates other problems (packet bursts). But as SOC's are increasing in speed while the price goes down... > > I also think it would be beneficial if we could figure out as soon as > possible what the requirements are on the forwarding plane, writing this > down, so that hardware designers can avoid putting functionality into > hardware that won't do what we need going fo > r > ward. Hardware "assists", e.g. TSO, and GSO, are a problem, particularly in the home. You don't want line rate bursts going onto your WiFi (though fq_codel helps that quite a bit, it's still evil). > > > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > ______________________________**_________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/homenet > --001a11c2db589acf6404e3e9cda1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon= , Aug 12, 2013 at 5:40 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Teco = Boot wrote:

Joel Jaeggli mentioned the forwarding performance. Today's homenets are= mainly single subnet with link-speed forwarding between (gig) ethernet por= ts, in hardware. L3 forwarding in software with single uplink or WiFi port = at near to gig speed is doable. Forwarding in software on all ports require= a new generation of low power and cheap CPU, I think. So probably use hard= ware forwarding as much as possible?

Hardware assisted forwarding might be problematic due to us deciding on new= functionality (source based routing for instance). I've read that in s= ome routers the forwarding is done by microcode implemented by the hardware= manufacturer, hindering the integrator (who buys the SoC in bulk) from doi= ng what might be needed.

So yes, forwarding performance is a concern, at least when we're talkin= g above 100 megabit/s.

Actually, I think (Dave Taht can tell us = with data), that forwarding performance is fine even on today's routers= up to 300-400Mbps on the WNDR3800 running CeroWrt (which routes, rather th= an bridging between interfaces).. =A0The 600Mhz MIPS can't saturate a g= igabit ethernet, however (at least not without using lots of hardware offlo= ad on the ethernet controller, which hurts latency and creates
other problems (pack= et bursts).
But as SOC= 9;s are increasing in speed while the price goes down...

I also think it would be beneficial if we could figure out as soon as possi= ble what the requirements are on the forwarding plane, writing this down, s= o that hardware designers can avoid putting functionality into hardware tha= t won't do what we need going fo
r
ward.

Hardware "assists", e.g. TSO, and GSO, are a= problem, particularly in the home. =A0You don't want line rate bursts = going onto your WiFi (though fq_codel helps that quite a bit, it's stil= l evil).


--
Mikael Abrahamsson =A0 =A0email: swmike@swm.pp.se
_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--001a11c2db589acf6404e3e9cda1-- From lee.howard@twcable.com Wed Aug 14 08:15:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89DFD21E80AB for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:15:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.462 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.462 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BmwAfztGf5t0 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcipgw01.twcable.com (cdcipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.91.110]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5006411E814C for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:15:34 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.13 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,877,1367985600"; d="scan'208,217";a="38400158" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB04.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.13]) by cdcipgw01.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 14 Aug 2013 11:15:08 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.78]) by PRVPEXHUB04.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.13]) with mapi; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:15:33 -0400 From: "Howard, Lee" To: Jim Gettys , Brian E Carpenter Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:15:32 -0400 Thread-Topic: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices Thread-Index: Ac6ZAR6d/6vCRuNTRiOsqTDSpsySJQ== Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.5.130515 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CE3116BC2B738LeeHowardtwcablecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:15:39 -0000 --_000_CE3116BC2B738LeeHowardtwcablecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jim Gettys > Date: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 11:03 AM To: Brian Carpenter > However, today's devices are overwhelmingly battery-powered, so even if compute power and memory are not the issues, electricity matters. Your home router is not battery powered (except for if you run it off a bat= tery back up system). This is true, but I believe this thread started as a discussion of the capa= bilities of devices that aren't what we currently think of as "The home rou= ter" but still have routing functions, or have other interactions with Home= net which might be constrained. When specifying protocols for interoperabi= lity, the most-constrained device determines the capabilities. Lee ________________________________ This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout. --_000_CE3116BC2B738LeeHowardtwcablecom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


From: Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org>
Date: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 11= :03 AM
To: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
However, today's devices are overwhelmingly battery-powered, so even
if compute power and memory are not the issues, electricity matters.

Your home router is = not battery powered (except for if you run it off a battery back up system)= .


This is true, but I believe this thread started as a discussion of the= capabilities of devices that aren't what we currently think of as "Th= e home router" but still have routing functions, or have other interac= tions with Homenet which might be constrained.  When specifying protocols for interoperability, the most-constrained= device determines the capabilities.

Lee

This E-mail and any of its a= ttachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is = privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner = Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you a= re not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that = any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to th= e contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have receiv= ed this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanent= ly delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout.
 --_000_CE3116BC2B738LeeHowardtwcablecom_-- From gettysjim@gmail.com Wed Aug 14 08:19:37 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3622821F9654 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:19:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.422 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.422 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.555, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3lxmxhVf9BEQ for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x22a.google.com (mail-ob0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620B821F93FB for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f170.google.com with SMTP id eh20so450915obb.29 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:19:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=owySyMroVM62oxSGmZ8dyI6Nqk08/3/WF33d7HD5bvM=; b=WhgY5KzjoPDs41X4i7ZYbRpOJCyyQI+XsM9bx6nSXiXzcWujZdEEgeIVvOSsaXuts4 Da+y4D34d0o11Ze1dG+wa06agekjCvtqVmmKUa84iypied+ShP2NGSNE0arBuLHAz7Ln IiMD/NidCvWDKJLi4UzkqKsDyrEQAgg46opfgFC49VTjo2qI94H4QSAsX8rK2yusKzlh d84lnp5FeY8RnwoBbZvwlDlG2EGzz62yZXTdsPWuntVwkuSelL20VQEtvONbHsbssrtH WwG3Jy2tatwoMRH8aD8uIGsZ6Wr4OBS/YNqKl1Wt26yT+chxO2nx53C+LmLZQjnZtv4B AHhQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.120.69 with SMTP id la5mr478023oeb.86.1376493575910; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.18.134 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:19:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5208C10E.9080702@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:19:35 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9J8o0rR4jKfhKqGL4_6nErUVfqA Message-ID: From: Jim Gettys To: "Howard, Lee" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b339559a0bb4304e3e9e25a Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Henning Rogge Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:19:37 -0000 --047d7b339559a0bb4304e3e9e25a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Howard, Lee wrote: > > > On 8/12/13 7:03 AM, "Henning Rogge" > wrote: > > >On 08/12/2013 11:40 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > >> On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Teco Boot wrote: > >> > >>> Joel Jaeggli mentioned the forwarding performance. Today's homenets > >>> are mainly single subnet with link-speed forwarding between (gig) > >>> ethernet ports, in hardware. L3 forwarding in software with single > >>> uplink or WiFi port at near to gig speed is doable. Forwarding in > >>> software on all ports require a new generation of low power and cheap > >>> CPU, I think. So probably use hardware forwarding as much as possible? > >> > >> Hardware assisted forwarding might be problematic due to us deciding on > >> new functionality (source based routing for instance). I've read that in > >> some routers the forwarding is done by microcode implemented by the > >> hardware manufacturer, hindering the integrator (who buys the SoC in > >> bulk) from doing what might be needed. > >> > >> So yes, forwarding performance is a concern, at least when we're talking > >> above 100 megabit/s. > >> > >> I also think it would be beneficial if we could figure out as soon as > >> possible what the requirements are on the forwarding plane, writing this > >> down, so that hardware designers can avoid putting functionality into > >> hardware that won't do what we need going forward. > > > >I agree, software forwarding should be the standard way. That makes it > >also more easy to adapt different routing protocols to HOMENET. > > > You guys are trying to hard to engineer products. Figure out what it > should do and how, and let implementers implement it. If you need > implementers to tell you how to do it, let's get more of them in here. > Yup. People here should have a bit of faith in Moore's law. These are real computers, and nothing I've seen is very difficult. And most of this stuff is already running fine in OpenWrt/CeroWrt as existence proof of viability. I do urge everyone to get their hands dirty, of course. Then you'd be discovering things like: 1) to deploy DNSSEC, you need to securely get time at boot time from the network. 2) to deploy DNSSEC, you need enough randomness in the entropy pool to generate the self-signed certs when you do the initial installation. (both these examples are very real, and Homenet should ensure these get fixed). Rather than worrying so much about whether the routers can do what you need, you'll be finding the real issues that need to be solved. - Jim > Lee > > > > This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable > proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to > copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely > for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you > are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that > any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to > the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and > may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify > the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of > this E-mail and any printout. > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > --047d7b339559a0bb4304e3e9e25a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon= , Aug 12, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Howard, Lee <lee.howard@twcable.com&g= t; wrote:


On 8/12/13 7:03 AM, "Henning Rogge" <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>
wrote:

>On 08/12/2013 11:40 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Teco Boot wrote:
>>
>>> Joel Jaeggli mentioned the forwarding performance. Today's= homenets
>>> are mainly single subnet with link-speed forwarding between (g= ig)
>>> ethernet ports, in hardware. L3 forwarding in software with si= ngle
>>> uplink or WiFi port at near to gig speed is doable. Forwarding= in
>>> software on all ports require a new generation of low power an= d cheap
>>> CPU, I think. So probably use hardware forwarding as much as p= ossible?
>>
>> Hardware assisted forwarding might be problematic due to us decidi= ng on
>> new functionality (source based routing for instance). I've re= ad that in
>> some routers the forwarding is done by microcode implemented by th= e
>> hardware manufacturer, hindering the integrator (who buys the SoC = in
>> bulk) from doing what might be needed.
>>
>> So yes, forwarding performance is a concern, at least when we'= re talking
>> above 100 megabit/s.
>>
>> I also think it would be beneficial if we could figure out as soon= as
>> possible what the requirements are on the forwarding plane, writin= g this
>> down, so that hardware designers can avoid putting functionality i= nto
>> hardware that won't do what we need going forward.
>
>I agree, software forwarding should be the standard way. That makes it<= br> >also more easy to adapt different routing protocols to HOMENET.


You guys are trying to hard to engineer products. =A0Figure out what = it
should do and how, and let implementers implement it. =A0If you need
implementers to tell you how to do it, let's get more of them in here.<= br>

Yup. =A0People here should have a bit of faith in Moore's la= w. =A0 These are real computers, and nothing I've seen is very difficul= t.

=A0And most of this stuff is a= lready running fine in OpenWrt/CeroWrt as existence proof of viability.

I do urge = everyone to get their hands dirty, of course.

Then you'd be discovering things like:
=A0 =A01) to deploy DNSSEC, you need to securel= y get time at boot time from the network.
=A0 =A02) to deploy DNSSEC, you need enough randomness in the entropy pool = to generate the self-signed certs when you do the initial installation.

(both these examples are very real, and Homenet should ensure these get fix= ed).

=
Rather than worrying= so much about whether the routers can do what you need, you'll be find= ing the real issues that need to be solved.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 - Jim


Lee



This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout.
___________________________________= ____________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--047d7b339559a0bb4304e3e9e25a-- From mike@mtcc.com Wed Aug 14 08:20:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324D611E8165 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:20:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wGB0abRrCt24 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF4321F9E37 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r7EFK6RC003285 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:20:06 -0700 Message-ID: <520BA026.7020607@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:20:06 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Gettys References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <52040577.4040707@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2069; t=1376493607; x=1377357607; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Capabilities=20of=20small=2 0devices |Sender:=20 |To:=20Jim=20Gettys=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=2jKU/271MyAQDEUQUKVnSPUm85gnglOYsJjxhbJCqv4=; b=KmYelYAHbc4SQ55YmQm8WAHOcP4jQQ6mTrvBy3FTexK0estKvo2q/Vaq1B L8/AZOPTaW+ZrOiWfkBJ3pmKkA0evnjRKBnL/ymgFcLz8lNL4sSJXYnInSmQ 5GGQiKY/q7rXlmtxUozp09jWoAew6dKrZkjYfga1Dq6dfc1hFzUDA=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:20:15 -0000 On 08/14/2013 08:03 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: > > The one I've measured consumes of order 5W, IIRC (WNRD3700v2). As noted, this is a 600Mhz SOC MIPS architecture (Atheros). This is now about 2 years old: more recent routers are yet higher performance. Relative to what you are used to on a desktop, the biggest performance differences are caused by having a small cache (making many interpreted languages relatively slow). Even so, it's much faster than most desktops/servers were not all that long ago, for integer codes. > > I believe the power consumption is often dominated by the 1G ethernet ports; a 1ghz SOC is only around 1W power consumption. Each ethernet port can consume significant power. If you use a USB port, it can also consume power (up to 2W). > > The WiFi may account for a watt or so of the consumption (it turns out that transmit and receive typically consume comparable amounts of power; the transmit power isn't significant relative to the power consumed by the signal processing that is done on receive). The WiFi devices in handheld devices may be somewhat more efficient (but also poorer performance: it pays to have a good radio in the router, where power is easy to come by.). > Thanks for the stats, Jim. Having worked on both iphone and android apps, it is *maddeningly* difficult to be a good battery citizen. There is no instrumentation last I looked to determine things like "If you transmit n bytes, typical battery use will be m mw at distance X" or "if you turn on this sensor at rate x, you can expect it to consume y mw", etc. I wish the Google and Apple would do something more than just being a scold ("don't use those features!") and forcing developers to put inane disclaimers in their product descriptions. If they really wanted good battery performance, they'd provide the OS level reporting that is necessary to make good decisions. Like, oh say, "Golly it takes a lot of juice to get to that tower, maybe I'll back off!" And of course this isn't just phones, it's anything with a battery. Mike From dave.taht@gmail.com Wed Aug 14 08:21:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9686121E80AB for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:21:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.933 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.933 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CdVclYp7VKs8 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x229.google.com (mail-wi0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3946021F9654 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f169.google.com with SMTP id f14so4334291wiw.4 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:21:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=bSbt6gZK0rMUGERKvwpbKdA9ECSW3ITeSCrvDCEXuHo=; b=tq2FQRvrnJuTxDDPT2K07g6KGiXw2/JLcZi7kIgpq/QfBiKCwBsgG5LlnEw1SrNMM0 qMn/tQyrcKHezr7N49ZyNJ2LyS1yMlMr+tDTgZkacgmkkM8+DaOUfJxHGV6cCqgotNIi QkTTSt2Zd3Au0c5yh8/roVXMnJwVdrHvRgAa6ZnQOsvP+pouZzz9gPg3AqmsBY5x9IoB BEwCLLXmLCOsigfIQR/0kN7n910Ayn7lE8Mxq3zn4giZlBqgsrbDu/FjPOlYxRYLCYvp wI5QIU8WnKy0YEry6fI3Oq22TjVNhsdraZElKOgrRmVtOzSzRMnirLx2RPYOZNQYupRg uYBw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.189.132 with SMTP id gi4mr2517866wic.19.1376493686176; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.48.129 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:21:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:21:26 -0700 Message-ID: From: Dave Taht To: Jim Gettys Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c352943341dd04e3e9e9b1 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Teco Boot , Mikael Abrahamsson Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:21:36 -0000 --001a11c352943341dd04e3e9e9b1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable oh, no, forwarding rates are not very good. I have a bunch of numbers on forwarding rates on the wndr3800 stuff, at best it's half that for routing rather than bridging. I can give you current pps or bytes/sec, but not right now. (felix just did a ton of tuning in this area). Bridging outperforms routing by like 6x1. Add in firewall rules or nat, or a software rate limiter, and you are well below 100Mbit for forwarding rates over the ethernet on that particular box= . It's not the SOC per se' that's the issue, it's the tiny caches (vs, like, um, ivy bridge), and the (generally 16 bit single channel) pretty slow memory interfaces common in these platforms, as well as MIP's general decrepitude. On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: > > > > On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 5:40 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wro= te: > >> On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Teco Boot wrote: >> >> Joel Jaeggli mentioned the forwarding performance. Today's homenets are >>> mainly single subnet with link-speed forwarding between (gig) ethernet >>> ports, in hardware. L3 forwarding in software with single uplink or WiF= i >>> port at near to gig speed is doable. Forwarding in software on all port= s >>> require a new generation of low power and cheap CPU, I think. So probab= ly >>> use hardware forwarding as much as possible? >>> >> >> Hardware assisted forwarding might be problematic due to us deciding on >> new functionality (source based routing for instance). I've read that in >> some routers the forwarding is done by microcode implemented by the >> hardware manufacturer, hindering the integrator (who buys the SoC in bul= k) >> from doing what might be needed. >> >> So yes, forwarding performance is a concern, at least when we're talking >> above 100 megabit/s. >> > > Actually, I think (Dave Taht can tell us with data), that forwarding > performance is fine even on today's routers up to 300-400Mbps on the > WNDR3800 running CeroWrt (which routes, rather than bridging between > interfaces).. The 600Mhz MIPS can't saturate a gigabit ethernet, however > (at least not without using lots of hardware offload on the ethernet > controller, which hurts latency and creates > other problems (packet bursts). > > But as SOC's are increasing in speed while the price goes down... > >> >> I also think it would be beneficial if we could figure out as soon as >> possible what the requirements are on the forwarding plane, writing this >> down, so that hardware designers can avoid putting functionality into >> hardware that won't do what we need going fo >> r >> ward. > > > Hardware "assists", e.g. TSO, and GSO, are a problem, particularly in the > home. You don't want line rate bursts going onto your WiFi (though > fq_codel helps that quite a bit, it's still evil). > >> >> >> -- >> Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se >> ______________________________**_________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/homenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > --=20 Dave T=E4ht Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html --001a11c352943341dd04e3e9e9b1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
oh, no, forwarding rates are not very good. I ha= ve a bunch of numbers on forwarding rates on the wndr3800 stuff, at best it= 's half that for routing rather than bridging. I can give you current p= ps or bytes/sec, but not right now. (felix just did a ton of tuning in this= area). Bridging outperforms routing by like 6x1.

Add in firewall rules or nat, or a software rate limiter, and you are w= ell below 100Mbit for forwarding rates over the ethernet on that particular= box.

It's not the SOC per se' that's the issue, i= t's the tiny caches (vs, like, um, ivy bridge), and the (generally 16 b= it single channel) pretty slow memory interfaces common in these platforms,= as well as MIP's general decrepitude.




On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> wrote:



On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 5:40 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmi= ke@swm.pp.se> wrote:
On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Teco Boot wrote:
Joel Jaeggli mentioned the forwarding performance. Today's homenets are= mainly single subnet with link-speed forwarding between (gig) ethernet por= ts, in hardware. L3 forwarding in software with single uplink or WiFi port = at near to gig speed is doable. Forwarding in software on all ports require= a new generation of low power and cheap CPU, I think. So probably use hard= ware forwarding as much as possible?

Hardware assisted forwarding might be problematic due to us deciding on new= functionality (source based routing for instance). I've read that in s= ome routers the forwarding is done by microcode implemented by the hardware= manufacturer, hindering the integrator (who buys the SoC in bulk) from doi= ng what might be needed.

So yes, forwarding performance is a concern, at least when we're talkin= g above 100 megabit/s.

Actually, I think (Dave Taht can te= ll us with data), that forwarding performance is fine even on today's r= outers up to 300-400Mbps on the WNDR3800 running CeroWrt (which routes, rat= her than bridging between interfaces).. =A0The 600Mhz MIPS can't satura= te a gigabit ethernet, however (at least not without using lots of hardware= offload on the ethernet controller, which hurts latency and creates
other problems (pack= et bursts).
But as SOC= 9;s are increasing in speed while the price goes down...

I also think it would be beneficial if we could figure out as soon as possi= ble what the requirements are on the forwarding plane, writing this down, s= o that hardware designers can avoid putting functionality into hardware tha= t won't do what we need going fo
r
ward.

Hardware "assists", e.g. TSO, and GSO, = are a problem, particularly in the home. =A0You don't want line rate bu= rsts going onto your WiFi (though fq_codel helps that quite a bit, it's= still evil).


--
Mikael Abrahamsson =A0 =A0email: swmike@swm.pp.se
_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org<= br> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet




--
Dave T=E4ht

= Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscrib= e.html=20
--001a11c352943341dd04e3e9e9b1-- From gettysjim@gmail.com Wed Aug 14 09:36:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CC1E11E8177 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:36:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.728 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.728 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.416, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, SARE_HTML_USL_OBFU=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wx-6lUkE2P5G for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-x22b.google.com (mail-oa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8804121F99FD for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id i10so13335610oag.2 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:36:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=kIxd4jLL865kC0J2cOrXmHcHnaOl5YwNhEZS2jxeYFA=; b=lrytoCE2xm3Lc9DguqDHBsuaRRz1xiNMR5fOd58jw+7u5QqtTVzt3vw1du/faWEUYD XxmoDm8RypI/S4ga9Ad9elOL1QJuWjH7AtgHFz2zV6Vxw+3xFJH61qCmTRJSJYyKIvH/ swz4Dik+TgXtDpT5jcoD32T3hCy8d5YtuH4zbaLWj3civVCv6o3T9ddr4+n7Hfq5ke1k LzXIrL3W6K+XICSSWuiNwtLWqaYmGqXM70/bg79vYyw3AT9u41HYhYI4EHnDkJlTx7By ZUid6oIIDQH+DFx005pKByAUimJyw5n63a2Ku91cnGKGQVjHx6uQHlFUWMITs6KcXBGb X+CQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.104.36 with SMTP id gb4mr15678018obb.43.1376498171977; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.18.134 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:36:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <520BA026.7020607@mtcc.com> References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <52040577.4040707@gmail.com> <520BA026.7020607@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:36:11 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: sWgcvYzcwmBvm1vaezbOlvvmUMs Message-ID: From: Jim Gettys To: Michael Thomas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013a215a9327a204e3eaf4d0 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:36:15 -0000 --089e013a215a9327a204e3eaf4d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Michael Thomas wrote: > On 08/14/2013 08:03 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: > >> >> The one I've measured consumes of order 5W, IIRC (WNRD3700v2). As noted, >> this is a 600Mhz SOC MIPS architecture (Atheros). This is now about 2 >> years old: more recent routers are yet higher performance. Relative to what >> you are used to on a desktop, the biggest performance differences are >> caused by having a small cache (making many interpreted languages >> relatively slow). Even so, it's much faster than most desktops/servers >> were not all that long ago, for integer codes. >> >> I believe the power consumption is often dominated by the 1G ethernet >> ports; a 1ghz SOC is only around 1W power consumption. Each ethernet port >> can consume significant power. If you use a USB port, it can also consume >> power (up to 2W). >> >> The WiFi may account for a watt or so of the consumption (it turns out >> that transmit and receive typically consume comparable amounts of power; >> the transmit power isn't significant relative to the power consumed by the >> signal processing that is done on receive). The WiFi devices in handheld >> devices may be somewhat more efficient (but also poorer performance: it >> pays to have a good radio in the router, where power is easy to come by.). >> >> > Thanks for the stats, Jim. Having worked on both iphone and android apps, > it is > *maddeningly* difficult to be a good battery citizen. There is no > instrumentation > last I looked to determine things like "If you transmit n bytes, typical > battery use > will be m mw at distance X" or "if you turn on this sensor at rate x, you > can expect > it to consume y mw", etc. I wish the Google and Apple would do something > more > than just being a scold ("don't use those features!") and forcing > developers to put > inane disclaimers in their product descriptions. If they really wanted good > battery performance, they'd provide the OS level reporting that is > necessary to > make good decisions. Like, oh say, "Golly it takes a lot of juice to get > to that tower, > maybe I'll back off!" > > And of course this isn't just phones, it's anything with a battery. > > My knowledge of power consumption is a bit dated on WiFi: I had to live and breathe power consumption on battery devices when working on OLPC 5-6 years ago. It may be considerably lower at this date (probably is) on WiFi devices used primarily for handhelds. Someone with current data would be helpful to chime in here. On the OLPC, we had a autonomous processor (a very low power ARM 9, IIRC), four packet buffers, and the device could forward packets in the mesh network without requiring the main processor to be involved at all. That module consumed somewhere between .5 and 1W, IIRC. Actual numbers are someplace in the OLPC Wiki... Transmit & receive power were roughly comparable. The big headache about WiFi is the current need to leave the receiver powered up (taking the signal processing power hit). And, of course, most handhelds don't have another CPU to do the packet forwarding (so you'd need to wake up the CPU to forward any packets). It ought to be the case that you'd not have to listen at all times (and I think there are unimplemented 802.11 features to do so), but in practice, the last I knew, you had to always be listening, so the power consumption was continuous. The other major headache is trying to reduce unnecessary wakeups to the main CPU (and when you do, take care of as much business as you can). IIRC, we got the wakeup rate down to order of 10's/second. I know Linux has improved quite a bit in this area over this period; dunno what the current state of the art is. - Jim > ______________________________**_________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/homenet > --089e013a215a9327a204e3eaf4d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed= , Aug 14, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote= :
On 08/14/2013 08:03 AM, Ji= m Gettys wrote:

The one I've measured consumes of order 5W, IIRC (WNRD3700v2). =A0As no= ted, this is a 600Mhz SOC MIPS architecture (Atheros). =A0This is now about= 2 years old: more recent routers are yet higher performance. Relative to w= hat you are used to on a desktop, the biggest performance differences are c= aused by having a small cache (making many interpreted languages relatively= slow). =A0Even so, it's much faster than most desktops/servers were no= t all that long ago, for integer codes.

I believe the power consumption is often dominated by the 1G ethernet ports= ; a 1ghz SOC is only around 1W power consumption. =A0Each ethernet port can= consume significant power. =A0If you use a USB port, it can also consume p= ower (up to 2W).

The WiFi may account for a watt or so of the consumption (it turns out that= transmit and receive typically consume comparable amounts of power; the tr= ansmit power isn't significant relative to the power consumed by the si= gnal processing that is done on receive). =A0The WiFi devices in handheld d= evices may be somewhat more efficient (but also poorer performance: it pays= to have a good radio in the router, where power is easy to come by.).


Thanks for the stats, Jim. Having worked on both iphone and android apps, i= t is
*maddeningly* difficult to be a good battery citizen. There is no instrumen= tation
last I looked to determine things like "If you transmit n bytes, typic= al battery use
will be m mw at distance X" or "if you turn on this sensor at rat= e x, you can expect
it to consume y mw", etc. I wish the Google and Apple would do somethi= ng more
than just being a scold ("don't use those features!") and for= cing developers to put
inane disclaimers in their product descriptions. If they really wanted good=
battery performance, they'd provide the OS level reporting that is nece= ssary to
make good decisions. Like, oh say, "Golly it takes a lot of juice to g= et to that tower,
maybe I'll back off!"

And of course this isn't just phones, it's anything with a battery.=


My knowledge of power consumption is a bit dated on WiFi: I= had to live and breathe power consumption on battery devices when working = on OLPC 5-6 years ago. =A0It may be considerably lower at this date (probab= ly is) on WiFi devices used primarily for handhelds. Someone with current d= ata would be helpful to chime in here.

On the OLPC, we had a autonomo= us processor (a very low power ARM 9, IIRC), four packet buffers, and the d= evice could forward packets in the mesh network without requiring the main = processor to be involved at all. That module consumed somewhere between .5 = and 1W, IIRC. =A0Actual numbers are someplace in the OLPC Wiki... =A0Transm= it & receive power were roughly comparable.

The big headache about WiFi is= the current need to leave the receiver powered up (taking the signal proce= ssing power hit). =A0And, of course, most handhelds don't have another = CPU to do the packet forwarding (so you'd need to wake up the CPU to fo= rward any packets). =A0It ought to be the case that you'd not have to l= isten at all times (and I think there are unimplemented 802.11 features to = do so), but in practice, the last I knew, you had to always be listening, s= o the power consumption was continuous.

The other major headache is tr= ying to reduce unnecessary wakeups to the main CPU (and when you do, take c= are of as much business as you can). =A0IIRC, we got the wakeup rate down t= o order of 10's/second. I know Linux has improved quite a bit in this a= rea over this period; dunno what the current state of the art is.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0- Jim




=

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--089e013a215a9327a204e3eaf4d0-- From joelja@bogus.com Wed Aug 14 09:40:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5806D21F9A13 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:40:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZQFteBah30NH for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B9211E814C for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from joels-MacBook-Air.local (host-64-47-153-50.masergy.com [64.47.153.50]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7EGdpOT090600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:39:51 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <520BB2D1.6080205@bogus.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:39:45 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:23.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/23.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Howard, Lee" , Jim Gettys , Brian E Carpenter References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:39:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:40:16 -0000 On 8/14/13 8:15 AM, Howard, Lee wrote: > > > From: Jim Gettys > > Date: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 11:03 AM > To: Brian Carpenter > > > However, today's devices are overwhelmingly battery-powered, > so even > if compute power and memory are not the issues, electricity > matters. > > > Your home router is not battery powered (except for if you run it > off a battery back up system). > > > > This is true, but I believe this thread started as a discussion of the > capabilities of devices that aren't what we currently think of as "The > home router" but still have routing functions, or have other > interactions with Homenet which might be constrained. When specifying > protocols for interoperability, the most-constrained device determines > the capabilities. > In fact, at some levels of contsraint the issue is not that some devices limit the capabilities of the network, it's that other devices have to act as proxies on their behalf... If you don't have enough memory for 100 ND/ARP entries, then probably you're only going to allow for one, e.g. a router. Wake-on-lan devices aren't ip speakers per-say but they can be triggered by a router broadcasting or multicasting a packet. Apple wake on demand/bonour sleep proxy is a literal proxy to work with contrained devices (in this case nics that are awake even when machines are not). zigbee lightlink bridges as featured in philips hue (which uses ipv6 btw) are another example of such a proxy, sure I can make a lightbulb with wifi, but why frankly should it sit there and listen to the inane multicast chatter of my bonjour devices all day when it doesn't need a printer/remote display/storage device? If constraints results in artifically small limitations to subnet size or device count or constraint the functionality of the ethernet mac layer then we've pretty much failed. there are practical limitations that apply in homenets just as the do in datacenters or elsewhere and fitness for a particular purpose or application may vary. > Lee > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable > proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject > to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is > addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you > are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or > action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this > E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately > and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and > any printout. > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From mike@mtcc.com Wed Aug 14 09:44:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3CD11E8156 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:44:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rxjEd2VKhyhv for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7118D21F9D69 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r7EGi3cK031890 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:44:03 -0700 Message-ID: <520BB3D3.7050200@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:44:03 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Gettys References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <52040577.4040707@gmail.com> <520BA026.7020607@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4393; t=1376498643; x=1377362643; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Capabilities=20of=20small=2 0devices |Sender:=20 |To:=20Jim=20Gettys=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=MglKFZGhHaRbdPqrdnM2cl1wL8dedq1xGvrZCR2NxOs=; b=BVghEJXpMv4C7OrnqJsHvyyigCZVp70UTBzuRse8KnXVL1TjPDFK23lgp6 658RFJgzgZ8KLSq+Yb8fx4L8RLzs3U1dBjf2zdDTgMCY0WqmpZz2if3SE5Vq OZxk528Rsr5MkwnUrQH1CFSQL8Sv+YKA+0dvi8Y3C2Du0xtsTmYYI=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:44:09 -0000 On 08/14/2013 09:36 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: > > > > On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Michael Thomas > wrote: > > On 08/14/2013 08:03 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: > > > The one I've measured consumes of order 5W, IIRC (WNRD3700v2). As noted, this is a 600Mhz SOC MIPS architecture (Atheros). This is now about 2 years old: more recent routers are yet higher performance. Relative to what you are used to on a desktop, the biggest performance differences are caused by having a small cache (making many interpreted languages relatively slow). Even so, it's much faster than most desktops/servers were not all that long ago, for integer codes. > > I believe the power consumption is often dominated by the 1G ethernet ports; a 1ghz SOC is only around 1W power consumption. Each ethernet port can consume significant power. If you use a USB port, it can also consume power (up to 2W). > > The WiFi may account for a watt or so of the consumption (it turns out that transmit and receive typically consume comparable amounts of power; the transmit power isn't significant relative to the power consumed by the signal processing that is done on receive). The WiFi devices in handheld devices may be somewhat more efficient (but also poorer performance: it pays to have a good radio in the router, where power is easy to come by.). > > > Thanks for the stats, Jim. Having worked on both iphone and android apps, it is > *maddeningly* difficult to be a good battery citizen. There is no instrumentation > last I looked to determine things like "If you transmit n bytes, typical battery use > will be m mw at distance X" or "if you turn on this sensor at rate x, you can expect > it to consume y mw", etc. I wish the Google and Apple would do something more > than just being a scold ("don't use those features!") and forcing developers to put > inane disclaimers in their product descriptions. If they really wanted good > battery performance, they'd provide the OS level reporting that is necessary to > make good decisions. Like, oh say, "Golly it takes a lot of juice to get to that tower, > maybe I'll back off!" > > And of course this isn't just phones, it's anything with a battery. > > > My knowledge of power consumption is a bit dated on WiFi: I had to live and breathe power consumption on battery devices when working on OLPC 5-6 years ago. It may be considerably lower at this date (probably is) on WiFi devices used primarily for handhelds. Someone with current data would be helpful to chime in here. > > On the OLPC, we had a autonomous processor (a very low power ARM 9, IIRC), four packet buffers, and the device could forward packets in the mesh network without requiring the main processor to be involved at all. That module consumed somewhere between .5 and 1W, IIRC. Actual numbers are someplace in the OLPC Wiki... Transmit & receive power were roughly comparable. > > The big headache about WiFi is the current need to leave the receiver powered up (taking the signal processing power hit). And, of course, most handhelds don't have another CPU to do the packet forwarding (so you'd need to wake up the CPU to forward any packets). It ought to be the case that you'd not have to listen at all times (and I think there are unimplemented 802.11 features to do so), but in practice, the last I knew, you had to always be listening, so the power consumption was continuous. > > The other major headache is trying to reduce unnecessary wakeups to the main CPU (and when you do, take care of as much business as you can). IIRC, we got the wakeup rate down to order of 10's/second. I know Linux has improved quite a bit in this area over this period; dunno what the current state of the art is. > What's really needed is something like a bprof that developers can run both in dev, as well as deployed (deferred to be sent up when convenient). And this should be a first-rate feature of Android/Eclipse as well as Xcode. Even if *just* those two were done, it would go a very long way to helping battery use for a lot of non-phone apps because it would raise the awareness of what to check for, and what is downright dumb. Right now it's way too easy to just throw up your hands and say "Sorry! Get a bigger battery!". Mike From lee.howard@twcable.com Wed Aug 14 09:47:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA09411E817B for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:47:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.963 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.963 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.501, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gqr2zkOZcaHW for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdpipgw01.twcable.com (cdpipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.59.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB4911E8156 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:47:22 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.15 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.89,878,1367985600"; d="scan'208";a="121724656" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB06.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.15]) by cdpipgw01.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 14 Aug 2013 12:46:28 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.78]) by PRVPEXHUB06.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.15]) with mapi; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:47:21 -0400 From: "Howard, Lee" To: joel jaeggli , Jim Gettys , Brian E Carpenter Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:47:20 -0400 Thread-Topic: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices Thread-Index: Ac6ZDfHaKeUY2ftFSKWXNsJJwxTwEQ== Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <520BB2D1.6080205@bogus.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.5.130515 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" , Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:47:41 -0000 On 8/14/13 12:39 PM, "joel jaeggli" wrote: >On 8/14/13 8:15 AM, Howard, Lee wrote: >> >> This is true, but I believe this thread started as a discussion of the >> capabilities of devices that aren't what we currently think of as "The >> home router" but still have routing functions, or have other >> interactions with Homenet which might be constrained. When specifying >> protocols for interoperability, the most-constrained device determines >> the capabilities. >> >In fact, at some levels of contsraint the issue is not that some devices >limit the capabilities of the network, it's that other devices have to >act as proxies on their behalf... Yes, that's true, and a very good point. Does that mean that we have to figure out the minimum footprint to play Homenet, and figure out how to signal proxy capability to anything not tall enough to ride this ride? Lee This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout. From rdroms.ietf@gmail.com Wed Aug 14 12:16:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077B011E8159 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:16:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H8IBTaoixGhQ for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x233.google.com (mail-qc0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0DA11E80FF for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f179.google.com with SMTP id n10so3298936qcx.38 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:16:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=cY7KUfrV0LGC9mgAFhMC3UguxJkIMxn/DXWwNs10nVM=; b=AnnRxfzRuX4VgOUlsNQxR83X9gbLk5Vsl53PEn47av9H3tGjV0eZlYOBNRFt3Zt5cp 70u7I/36kR3Zk9UG4+C1nqHMiQotA91k8bOxzOGoCElegvbRpKcNKZNrRgkFMVw60Qaz 0JZMA+0Z0tIIHXi3u0VCJJdvXkRjHgRByex8w9pbPY5biBptMrDdCyZMrFUCHAyTEQoJ oRJNoPhNWZTZ5UjHJEsXd8jeYvvbUtttX+M4sq6js0nS3oV+DYRXoLJ0EH6i0DJ51yEc AAe3F85K1bz2aTgJWpQq3glIgyNTZPb9AdmynMOLQFnhOvOSdfTOnw20AilhfSdM5bs3 vVUQ== X-Received: by 10.224.97.3 with SMTP id j3mr6680237qan.87.1376507817654; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.86.255.98] (198-135-0-233.cisco.com. [198.135.0.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id g9sm52670482qaz.4.2013.08.14.12.16.55 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:16:53 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7CA3A3C1-2E7C-48F7-BBB8-344B054EFBDE@gmail.com> References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 19:16:59 -0000 On Aug 13, 2013, at 11:11 AM 8/13/13, Ted Lemon = wrote: > On Aug 13, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Ralph Droms = wrote: >> Following up on "customers" and "features"... Exactly what features = will a homenet router vendor be able to sell to customers? We all = appreciate ZOSPF, automated prefix assignment and addressing, traffic = engineering around wireless, etc. What are vendors going to sell to = customers? >=20 > It seems to me that the key feature of homenet routers, if we are = successful, will be fewer support calls. Seriously, that's it? We're discussing several new technologies, based = on a speculative model for home network architecture and deployment = models, and the primary advantage is fewer support calls? ...which sounds like more of an advantage for the SPs - which is not a = bad thing but I don't think "Now with fewer service calls!" is going to = sell many routers. >=20 >> Looking at one specific feature - could vendors provide routing in a = router available today that has wireless and wired interfaces? I think = they could but don't (I'd be happy to be told I'm wrong). If I've got = it right, why don't vendors provide routing that would be a=20 >> marketable performance feature? >=20 > You mean as opposed to bridging? I don't actually know how guest = vlan isolation is currently done, but I assume that it involves separate = subnets. IMO, any traffic isolation will be based on a logical network topology = that is independent of the physical network, so the routing envisioned = in the current homenet technologies will need augmentation with some = additional mechanisms. So with my devil's-advocate-luddite hat firmly = pulled down over my ears, I'll suggest that there is no advantage to the = customer from routing as envisioned between randomly placed devices in a = home network, and that re-using some existing bridging technology might = be a better choice. - Ralph, who realizes he's just painted a target on his chest >=20 From rdroms.ietf@gmail.com Wed Aug 14 12:22:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC12B21F9D5F for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:22:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XssiFpTZCC-p for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22c.google.com (mail-qc0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760A321F9CC6 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id a1so5158641qcx.31 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:22:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=qB0DVBkon22EADIeDykaLVqd4dRyA8cUIaJVJR7w6lA=; b=ae0gUtbHnYJg0N/trTe/VKuwtB4M73enB6OMw363FuaesKSMJmr4SQgWEJ9TtYKEZ9 8zPBSjBIFE/7f1rVdrPOkwVal1CziLIs6XwsD8E8e5Go/5s0BtiwSZXgqeRtYSrFQbAm s+QGA0nl9RhJFUdnqLhfeULz6vWSnDfjKu+/Yk1XhJiKr8iCcuURPIlWijs0+AVDAWjW uIn3uDNeXeFD7YP4O2uYuQ7RlK5Z8PTu/YcbZCzjFdL30TQsSDw1rEROvbBrKa2qAuIc Nk17Fersg434htAPQmOX66AAHNZV+pIS9lmxayFXm38TwB3XHG5F8TrAxhNIJo1++PLz EFYw== X-Received: by 10.49.94.7 with SMTP id cy7mr6712320qeb.90.1376508136859; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.86.255.98] (198-135-0-233.cisco.com. [198.135.0.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id c6sm3495676qar.6.2013.08.14.12.22.13 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: <520A51CC.4090208@bogus.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:22:12 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3DD6FF25-6DDB-430D-9229-B947FA6F993A@gmail.com> References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> <520A51CC.4090208@bogus.com> To: joel jaeggli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Ted Lemon , Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 19:22:19 -0000 On Aug 13, 2013, at 11:33 AM 8/13/13, joel jaeggli = wrote: > On 8/13/13 8:11 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: >> On Aug 13, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Ralph Droms = wrote: >>> Following up on "customers" and "features"... Exactly what features = will a homenet router vendor be able to sell to customers? We all = appreciate ZOSPF, automated prefix assignment and addressing, traffic = engineering around wireless, etc. What are vendors going to sell to = customers? >> It seems to me that the key feature of homenet routers, if we are = successful, will be fewer support calls. >>=20 >>> Looking at one specific feature - could vendors provide routing in = a router available today that has wireless and wired interfaces?=20 > yes... they do. in in fact the whole notion of wan interfaces meaning > these boxes are presently routing. >=20 > something like: >=20 > = http://www.netgear.com/home/products/wirelessrouters/high-performance/WNDR= 3700.aspx >=20 > Is a pretty good example of a circa 2012 dual radio plus gigabit > ethernet router with support for multiple subnets, I can't find the appropriate info from the website - different prefixes = on wired and wireless with routing between them? > guest ssids, guest isolation only on wireless? > limited > ipv6 routing (it's currently got a /64 from comcast via PD and is = doing > RA +stateless dhcpv6) and nat. it was somewhat on the expensive side > (more than $100 US then less than $100 now) but not dramaticailly so, = I > bought it at frys. >=20 OK, thanks for this information about the current market. - Ralph > This of course will be supplanted by one that provides 802.11ac = thereby > providing an incentive to upgrade. >=20 > the openwrt wiki (I'm running the manufacturers firmware) tells me = it's > a AR9344 (which is a mips SOC) running at 560mhz with 128MB of RAM >=20 >>> I think they could but don't (I'd be happy to be told I'm wrong). = If I've got it right, why don't vendors provide routing that would be a=20= >>> marketable performance feature? >> You mean as opposed to bridging? I don't actually know how guest = vlan isolation is currently done, but I assume that it involves separate = subnets. >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >>=20 >=20 From rdroms.ietf@gmail.com Wed Aug 14 12:27:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0550211E8199 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:27:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k19X8ItmZs2S for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x232.google.com (mail-qc0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC53311E80FF for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id s1so5171057qcw.9 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:26:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ivWsSRmjanb2HLrGf5DUXzkPsjVnvjUD6UpF9wc7npQ=; b=oYjLY6fjKL6spW2GHPe14OqdyQcDLDZrTOLyPyH9hS7R2CeOxEItrVZPJxC8mQEMKy L/hEJ6UFShI/UshUXMXnbWo4JQPF/l3DKybapbhLjqtBzdGdWQJ8O9Fn3zCNQueYRbIc CGDKuHTtv/7i17Vyk0a1hEuEXXt3wAOAEj48jCeOi/QQ2mD1KAc7hgsoC1IYkZMeCCh4 yVJPNfKKs8+cOnKe/7EKaCDwHiREFIA9DYZdFNn6srY5v+6GzdX0zywPHiQCWColzXKw nilUfjIIviHBeKNaMkY45EKS63wWubzufq2DFtZffeL7KvMN1voGzQB0vh60YWBkljLm F87w== X-Received: by 10.49.127.179 with SMTP id nh19mr13263344qeb.1.1376508401525; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.86.255.98] (198-135-0-233.cisco.com. [198.135.0.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id c6sm3519409qar.6.2013.08.14.12.26.37 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:26:36 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> To: Dave Taht X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Teco Boot , Jim Gettys , Mikael Abrahamsson Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 19:27:08 -0000 On Aug 14, 2013, at 11:21 AM 8/14/13, Dave Taht = wrote: > oh, no, forwarding rates are not very good. I have a bunch of numbers = on forwarding rates on the wndr3800 stuff, at best it's half that for = routing rather than bridging. I can give you current pps or bytes/sec, = but not right now. (felix just did a ton of tuning in this area). = Bridging outperforms routing by like 6x1. Still with my devil's advocate hat on, and recognizing that I'm = comparing a problem resulting from multicast with raw unicast = performance, I thought routing between wireless and wired links was = necessary to avoid a performance hit. In practice, on a real and usual = home network, does the performance hit from bridging multicast onto = wireless outweigh the lower forwarding rates for routing unicast? - Ralph >=20 > Add in firewall rules or nat, or a software rate limiter, and you are = well below 100Mbit for forwarding rates over the ethernet on that = particular box. >=20 > It's not the SOC per se' that's the issue, it's the tiny caches (vs, = like, um, ivy bridge), and the (generally 16 bit single channel) pretty = slow memory interfaces common in these platforms, as well as MIP's = general decrepitude.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Jim Gettys = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 5:40 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson = wrote: > On Mon, 12 Aug 2013, Teco Boot wrote: >=20 > Joel Jaeggli mentioned the forwarding performance. Today's homenets = are mainly single subnet with link-speed forwarding between (gig) = ethernet ports, in hardware. L3 forwarding in software with single = uplink or WiFi port at near to gig speed is doable. Forwarding in = software on all ports require a new generation of low power and cheap = CPU, I think. So probably use hardware forwarding as much as possible? >=20 > Hardware assisted forwarding might be problematic due to us deciding = on new functionality (source based routing for instance). I've read that = in some routers the forwarding is done by microcode implemented by the = hardware manufacturer, hindering the integrator (who buys the SoC in = bulk) from doing what might be needed. >=20 > So yes, forwarding performance is a concern, at least when we're = talking above 100 megabit/s. >=20 > Actually, I think (Dave Taht can tell us with data), that forwarding = performance is fine even on today's routers up to 300-400Mbps on the = WNDR3800 running CeroWrt (which routes, rather than bridging between = interfaces).. The 600Mhz MIPS can't saturate a gigabit ethernet, = however (at least not without using lots of hardware offload on the = ethernet controller, which hurts latency and creates > other problems (packet bursts). >=20 > But as SOC's are increasing in speed while the price goes down... >=20 > I also think it would be beneficial if we could figure out as soon as = possible what the requirements are on the forwarding plane, writing this = down, so that hardware designers can avoid putting functionality into = hardware that won't do what we need going fo rward. >=20 > Hardware "assists", e.g. TSO, and GSO, are a problem, particularly in = the home. You don't want line rate bursts going onto your WiFi (though = fq_codel helps that quite a bit, it's still evil). >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Dave T=E4ht >=20 > Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: = http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.html > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From mellon@fugue.com Wed Aug 14 13:09:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77DDF21E80E1 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:09:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jWFzVn+3UnJG for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A6421E80EA for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:88a3::4cd2:ee12:915f:657d] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:88a3:0:4cd2:ee12:915f:657d]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2D9A32381D06; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:09:07 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1793.4\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <7CA3A3C1-2E7C-48F7-BBB8-344B054EFBDE@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:09:06 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> <7CA3A3C1-2E7C-48F7-BBB8-344B054EFBDE@gmail.com> To: Ralph Droms X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1793.4) Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Andrew Sullivan , homenet@ietf.orgGroup Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:09:20 -0000 On Aug 14, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Ralph Droms wrote: > Seriously, that's it? We're discussing several new technologies, = based on a speculative model for home network architecture and = deployment models, and the primary advantage is fewer support calls? >=20 > ...which sounds like more of an advantage for the SPs - which is not a = bad thing but I don't think "Now with fewer service calls!" is going to = sell many routers. No, the point is that right now if you just take a bunch of IPv4 nat = routers and plug them together, they work, because they're all = translating. Of course, service discovery fails utterly, but basic IP = service works. We want to deliver IPv6 functionality with routing and = no translating, working service discovery across subnets, and support = for multihoming. And we want it to work more seamlessly than current = single-homed IPv4 nat routers work. That's a big deal, and worth = working on, but the primary result of getting it right really is "fewer = support calls." We obviously have other features we want, and we may be able to figure = out a way to convince end users that they want these features: for = example, naming in the homenet, and phone home capabilities, and stuff = like that. But right now I have no idea how I sell "naming in the = home" to=20 > IMO, any traffic isolation will be based on a logical network topology = that is independent of the physical network, so the routing envisioned = in the current homenet technologies will need augmentation with some = additional mechanisms. So with my devil's-advocate-luddite hat firmly = pulled down over my ears, I'll suggest that there is no advantage to the = customer from routing as envisioned between randomly placed devices in a = home network, and that re-using some existing bridging technology might = be a better choice. We really want traffic isolation. I guess we could do that with TRILL, = but we can also do it with subnetting. There are significant = advantages for subnetting, not the least of which is that we don't have = all that dnssd multicast traffic being relayed across links with = different performance characteristics. From jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr Wed Aug 14 13:14:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA82421F8E7C for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.341 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.341 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kvGvARTZAo7A for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0AC21F8C65 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/38117) with ESMTP id r7EKEYPp013032; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:14:34 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A185456F15; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:14:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id EoeRAYhJ1BYF; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:14:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pirx.pps.jussieu.fr (user-5-173-196-144.play-internet.pl [5.173.196.144]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7CDAC56F12; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:14:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=pirx.pps.jussieu.fr) by pirx.pps.jussieu.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9hSf-0002Y4-T6; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:14:29 +0200 Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:14:29 +0200 Message-ID: <87mwokm3mi.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:14:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 520BE52A.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 520BE52A.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 520BE52A.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:14:42 -0000 > In practice, on a real and usual home network, does the performance > hit from bridging multicast onto wireless outweigh the lower > forwarding rates for routing unicast? These are not directly comparable. Forwarding performance limitations is something you pay all the time -- if your router cannot exceed 1 Mpps, then you're going to be limited to 1 Mpps no matter what. The cost of bridging 802.11 with Ethernet is something that you only pay when there are significant amounts of broadcast/multicast traffic on the Ethernet link. Note furthermore that both issues are fixable. The forwarding performance can be drastically improved by disabling connection tracking (quite reasonable for IPv6), while the multicast issue can be fixed by implementing IGMP snooping (yuck) in your bridge. -- Juliusz From mike@mtcc.com Wed Aug 14 13:18:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A9221E80F1 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:18:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H0VQxHguM2xB for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D681021E80D6 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r7EKInpe008515 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:18:50 -0700 Message-ID: <520BE629.9040003@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:18:49 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> <7CA3A3C1-2E7C-48F7-BBB8-344B054EFBDE@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=793; t=1376511530; x=1377375530; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Capabilities=20of=20small=2 0devices |Sender:=20 |To:=20homenet@ietf.org |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=70UjiXxkEpo29axtAHfbGmPdlJlwtMqiuiXCpQaVYtg=; b=YQSEbNXM3lqsF57NWtTGPeVYjlouVFXyIE1Twh68AUVqL/m4EeI1YLw0Vj kPr49KMci+PbJ3RLLvfQIL+pI/3iX2BJ+CScB6KSNsqQvbaMcvLMxNVyx/Oo FQAx4IuaLvaLzJPS8a86puT+l6fU8/k7fLa6Wxnk9UtFBkF+TalaM=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:18:55 -0000 On 08/14/2013 01:09 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > We obviously have other features we want, and we may be able to figure out a way to convince end users that they want these features: for example, naming in the homenet, and phone home capabilities, and stuff like that. But right now I have no idea how I sell "naming in the home" to I can. Right now in v4 world, calling home for just about anything is pretty kludgy. Getting real server-like functionality with real names like nature intended would go a very long way to making it easier for companies and developers to design and deploy those things. Maybe they have a: "Requires Homenet Capable Router!" Stamped on them. Voila, the internet of things, as well as turnover for the router vendors. Happiness ensues for all. Mike From mellon@fugue.com Wed Aug 14 13:25:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7088421F9A78 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:25:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b0xfzhFypLTu for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toccata.fugue.com (toccata.fugue.com [204.152.186.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED02621F99E1 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:88a3::4cd2:ee12:915f:657d] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:88a3:0:4cd2:ee12:915f:657d]) by toccata.fugue.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6BC6F23814CA; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:25:10 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1793.4\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <520BE629.9040003@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:25:09 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> <7CA3A3C1-2E7C-48F7-BBB8-344B054EFBDE@gmail.com> <520BE629.9040003@mtcc.com> To: Michael Thomas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1793.4) Cc: homenet@ietf.org, homenet@ietf.orgGroup Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:25:34 -0000 On Aug 14, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > I can. Right now in v4 world, calling home for just about anything is = pretty > kludgy. Getting real server-like functionality with real names like = nature > intended would go a very long way to making it easier for companies = and > developers to design and deploy those things. Maybe they have a: >=20 > "Requires Homenet Capable Router!" >=20 > Stamped on them. Voila, the internet of things, as well as turnover = for the > router vendors. Happiness ensues for all. Absolutely. But this isn't a straightforward sell, as you've just = shown. First the end user has to want to buy , and then = requires , and now the user wants to buy . From rdroms.ietf@gmail.com Wed Aug 14 13:27:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB1F21F9D8D for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:27:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 65NGolAa6mgi for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x235.google.com (mail-qa0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC2721F9DAF for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id hu14so1348419qab.5 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:27:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=2vo7HC+Z+2OAMHCDS4/FO8773Ohvx2ILlft1Ofx3pF0=; b=AoWB9FS/tUarGu5VpBofwUYOyLNhrnHz01byCCY/3NVtOQSukvjdKVZ39ZO9a8Xhme EXv6IrCOqgtCvhE1W3uwgh1QtNdjBjj5wUu5qxlga0V/pz5CloV4dUjZVWX7Op0d/t6Q ByWen6/uNgXsZRsNoMP3y6YpnMQdMoxmz17RJ0JjI5yqXtF7NXPbBQuEBsoizfPkhZqO ZFIXK0HGcni9dAktT2eyEgb+2GUYJsuzwu0wOV+gaPqoVHqzgDYmRDB2sn7mpIjCuEuY RPzYijTOXKTpG/V+FZANQuIsgXAh0lq4ZTdJJgfBRPRAQNHWfB7AwZuN/69jR+l30xYK K9Jg== X-Received: by 10.49.17.101 with SMTP id n5mr7103633qed.88.1376512066835; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:420:2481:20:6090:a228:59bf:3a08? ([2001:420:2481:20:6090:a228:59bf:3a08]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id h6sm50341342qej.4.2013.08.14.13.27.44 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: <87mwokm3mi.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:27:41 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> <87mwokm3mi.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:27:48 -0000 On Aug 14, 2013, at 4:14 PM 8/14/13, Juliusz Chroboczek = wrote: >> In practice, on a real and usual home network, does the performance >> hit from bridging multicast onto wireless outweigh the lower >> forwarding rates for routing unicast? >=20 > These are not directly comparable. >=20 > Forwarding performance limitations is something you pay all the > time -- if your router cannot exceed 1 Mpps, then you're going to be > limited to 1 Mpps no matter what. >=20 > The cost of bridging 802.11 with Ethernet is something that you only > pay when there are significant amounts of broadcast/multicast traffic > on the Ethernet link. Yup ... so I'm curious about whether one cost or the other dominates in = today's home networks or what we extrapolate as future home networks. = My intuition (perhaps supported by your observation about the penalty of = forwarding performance) is that the penalty from routing performance has = more impact than the penalty from bridging multicast traffic = unnecessarily. >=20 > Note furthermore that both issues are fixable. The forwarding = performance > can be drastically improved by disabling connection tracking (quite > reasonable for IPv6), while the multicast issue can be fixed by > implementing IGMP snooping (yuck) in your bridge. Is the IGMP code available in Linux today? >=20 > -- Juliusz - Ralph From joelja@bogus.com Wed Aug 14 13:32:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E85B11E819C for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:32:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1agkf5TsI+uB for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D9FD11E818F for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from joels-MacBook-Air.local (host-64-47-153-50.masergy.com [64.47.153.50]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7EKWmhU093594 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:32:48 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <520BE96B.2080701@bogus.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:32:43 -0700 From: joel jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:23.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/23.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ralph Droms , Juliusz Chroboczek References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> <87mwokm3mi.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:32:48 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:32:51 -0000 On 8/14/13 1:27 PM, Ralph Droms wrote: > On Aug 14, 2013, at 4:14 PM 8/14/13, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > >>> In practice, on a real and usual home network, does the performance >>> hit from bridging multicast onto wireless outweigh the lower >>> forwarding rates for routing unicast? >> These are not directly comparable. > >> Forwarding performance limitations is something you pay all the >> time -- if your router cannot exceed 1 Mpps, then you're going to be >> limited to 1 Mpps no matter what. >> >> The cost of bridging 802.11 with Ethernet is something that you only >> pay when there are significant amounts of broadcast/multicast traffic >> on the Ethernet link. > Yup ... so I'm curious about whether one cost or the other dominates in today's home networks or what we extrapolate as future home networks. My intuition (perhaps supported by your observation about the penalty of forwarding performance) is that the penalty from routing performance has more impact than the penalty from bridging multicast traffic unnecessarily. > >> Note furthermore that both issues are fixable. The forwarding performance >> can be drastically improved by disabling connection tracking (quite >> reasonable for IPv6), while the multicast issue can be fixed by >> implementing IGMP snooping (yuck) in your bridge. > Is the IGMP code available in Linux today? http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/networking/bridge#Snooping > >> -- Juliusz > - Ralph > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > From rdroms.ietf@gmail.com Wed Aug 14 13:33:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADE411E8191 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:33:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f4eH+6uJQBMB for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x235.google.com (mail-qa0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CE211E81A4 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id hu14so1352165qab.5 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:33:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=xtkeWwhNOmURt/Vp5U/svkl50qlK7kFW7e5rwK46jLU=; b=HDVcMeYpiyOOERlpfhze6FC9ypX2E0QGkqn4z9FWO8FvvrK4PT/fCn5b/OKLH1klxA YqtbqRLjubJZBJqZEnql2oNa0kdE4/RoMEKs+saa/KBSPdva6apo/tnvTtberGGpse3s hGZRxDRVh4Y7uBotWih+wawXs0egJgvfbsaJ4WWT+ceGEnsGOv7cKv3GI8YIDYafTCnn 11mUB3OOoLBi5xfgQ0ayx4un4UNAmdpA7a49Fzeb0FY2eOQqhKOccGDrihmz2UiXQjOw 1ON9qPUY74oB4RrPhixCsn/kZxXE9S47xq5uWx9CnVL7uoERx9tPN7pNLqpkwigzPAe7 jU+Q== X-Received: by 10.224.122.195 with SMTP id m3mr14095396qar.9.1376512389989; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-rdroms-8916.cisco.com (rtp-isp-nat1.cisco.com. [64.102.254.33]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id i1sm53075997qas.10.2013.08.14.13.33.08 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.5 \(1508\)) From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:33:06 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <43F9B58C-BAA2-40B5-A469-CF34B11E267F@gmail.com> References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> <7CA3A3C1-2E7C-48F7-BBB8-344B054EFBDE@gmail.com> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508) Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:33:13 -0000 On Aug 14, 2013, at 4:09 PM 8/14/13, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Aug 14, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Ralph Droms = wrote: >> Seriously, that's it? We're discussing several new technologies, = based on a speculative model for home network architecture and = deployment models, and the primary advantage is fewer support calls? >>=20 >> ...which sounds like more of an advantage for the SPs - which is not = a bad thing but I don't think "Now with fewer service calls!" is going = to sell many routers. >=20 > No, the point is that right now if you just take a bunch of IPv4 nat = routers and plug them together, they work, because they're all = translating. Depends on how you plug them together. They will also work correctly as = bridges if plugged together correctly, too. By enabling spanning tree = bridging or waiting for SPF bridging, those devices could be plugged = together randomly and still work. > Of course, service discovery fails utterly, but basic IP service = works. We want to deliver IPv6 functionality with routing and no = translating, working service discovery across subnets, and support for = multihoming. And we want it to work more seamlessly than current = single-homed IPv4 nat routers work. That's a big deal, and worth = working on, but the primary result of getting it right really is "fewer = support calls." OK, but I think multi-homing support is orthogonal to internal routing = in the homenet. Routing might make the multi-homing problem worse... >=20 > We obviously have other features we want, and we may be able to figure = out a way to convince end users that they want these features: for = example, naming in the homenet, and phone home capabilities, and stuff = like that. But right now I have no idea how I sell "naming in the = home" to=20 >=20 >> IMO, any traffic isolation will be based on a logical network = topology that is independent of the physical network, so the routing = envisioned in the current homenet technologies will need augmentation = with some additional mechanisms. So with my devil's-advocate-luddite = hat firmly pulled down over my ears, I'll suggest that there is no = advantage to the customer from routing as envisioned between randomly = placed devices in a home network, and that re-using some existing = bridging technology might be a better choice. >=20 > We really want traffic isolation. I guess we could do that with = TRILL, but we can also do it with subnetting. There are significant = advantages for subnetting, not the least of which is that we don't have = all that dnssd multicast traffic being relayed across links with = different performance characteristics. There are two kinds of traffic isolation - one is based on physical = network topology (wireless/wired) and the other is based on logical = device isolation (home/guest). Routing to avoid multicast over wireless = doesn't provide home/guest isolation. - Ralph >=20 From hrogge@googlemail.com Wed Aug 14 13:36:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56EB11E819F for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:36:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id blDXRQTNqZFb for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22b.google.com (mail-qc0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B251511E818F for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id n1so2642176qcw.2 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:36:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=e7tYRmuK1yPh6XXQIbnLjlIH1sGXyAc738jlApkj51Q=; b=pJRxWy7CwcY+GXGDIMeWnQq14fovKDJPEwR1E+ep35xfT+tA6X5HJf9chVWhV5KUmm yUg89ptIqd6hc5z/STzlmMPxcmDLjqCEX0mVg9A0KUeXIU9Q/y0xAh9/tpnozWgRJDGZ acnCYswvz+5jMvnjk0Da03vOSACllkDphGU4cWY6XRxkA8P5ZLbx0jvtlAsj0gNfd7HT jTDP/cs/F7X1mQqwpTdmOFzKwnVB3FMpU401YROnt8efGR6qmFTGIEbUFY+JfNc41BML 8OaRoy3Yh5l8JOSpDXYC9BdDpz0eqSkbrj4fU+8MvOx8jU+nPH/PKzAEs2eDr1zFDKbX pSdA== X-Received: by 10.224.122.195 with SMTP id m3mr14110149qar.9.1376512573957; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:36:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.203.7 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:35:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> <7CA3A3C1-2E7C-48F7-BBB8-344B054EFBDE@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:35:53 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" , Ralph Droms , Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:36:28 -0000 On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:09 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > No, the point is that right now if you just take a bunch of IPv4 nat rout= ers and plug them together, they work, because they're all translating. O= f course, service discovery fails utterly, but basic IP service works. We= want to deliver IPv6 functionality with routing and no translating, workin= g service discovery across subnets, and support for multihoming. And we w= ant it to work more seamlessly than current single-homed IPv4 nat routers w= ork. That's a big deal, and worth working on, but the primary result of g= etting it right really is "fewer support calls." Hopefully using straight IPv6 instead of NAT with IPv4 might also improve the performance of the homerouters. Henning Rogge --=20 We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars - Carl Sagan From mike@mtcc.com Wed Aug 14 13:37:52 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0A8521F9FE5 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:37:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fOcfP7KhdcdO for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtcc.com (mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62CDA11E818F for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from takifugu.mtcc.com (takifugu.mtcc.com [50.0.18.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mtcc.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r7EKbgiI014879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:37:42 -0700 Message-ID: <520BEA96.7010202@mtcc.com> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:37:42 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.22) Gecko/20090605 Thunderbird/2.0.0.22 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> <7CA3A3C1-2E7C-48F7-BBB8-344B054EFBDE@gmail.com> <520BE629.9040003@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1553; t=1376512662; x=1377376662; c=relaxed/simple; s=thundersaddle.kirkwood; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=mtcc.com; i=mike@mtcc.com; z=From:=20Michael=20Thomas=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[homenet]=20Capabilities=20of=20small=2 0devices |Sender:=20 |To:=20Ted=20Lemon=20 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20 format=3Dflowed |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=207bit |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=FYVyO/gOqp6I9AWBHz8QW+qPqQGxQIpNRitebxwTeDA=; b=LRYwr/9Pkjc/O63LYUcXv6+6uq/ve5dS43yf/yCcun3x42qMBUZhBFTcCh ZthB0oHSCdffR4DJ288pSKcWDXWnarOPhz/qT4OB+eo1Rt4hzjtoI7Dwd7Z7 DXGclSeQXHHANvcEgob5mRpfGvHu9XouPZ8t4BQvGcOTZfJ8iug9w=; Authentication-Results: ; v=0.1; dkim=pass header.i=mike@mtcc.com ( sig from mtcc.com/thundersaddle.kirkwood verified; ); dkim-asp=pass header.From=mike@mtcc.com Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:37:53 -0000 On 08/14/2013 01:25 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Aug 14, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: >> I can. Right now in v4 world, calling home for just about anything is pretty >> kludgy. Getting real server-like functionality with real names like nature >> intended would go a very long way to making it easier for companies and >> developers to design and deploy those things. Maybe they have a: >> >> "Requires Homenet Capable Router!" >> >> Stamped on them. Voila, the internet of things, as well as turnover for the >> router vendors. Happiness ensues for all. > Absolutely. But this isn't a straightforward sell, as you've just shown. First the end user has to want to buy , and then requires , and now the user wants to buy . I think that the basic problem is that the call-servers-in-homes is still waiting just like everything else for v6 to be deployed wide enough that widget makers can see a big enough market to justify the hardware dev cost. Regardless of technology, what the cablelabs folks are doing is goodness if it helps that problem along. I know this is very US-centric, but if just a couple of the big MSO's rolled out v6 to the masses that an internet of things could take advantage of -- and we could get our part done especially on the external naming -- a "Homenet Capable Router" stamp might just work and actually give a reason that people care about v6 (well, not really v6 but the ability to use their Internet of Things widgets). Mike From jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr Wed Aug 14 16:06:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4604421E804D for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:06:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id prUiwDvSlNip for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A0E11E814D for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/38117) with ESMTP id r7EN63O6020293; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:03 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714D356F20; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id xqKIo1D1Su9L; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pirx.pps.jussieu.fr (user-31-175-89-49.play-internet.pl [31.175.89.49]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B136156E3D; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=pirx.pps.jussieu.fr) by pirx.pps.jussieu.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9k8d-0003Ci-2y; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:05:59 +0200 Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:05:59 +0200 Message-ID: <87k3jnna94.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: References: <73B69ACB-4048-4579-AD95-03FB200E271D@ogud.com> <87eh9zoka7.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <52088878.5060300@fkie.fraunhofer.de> <87mwokm3mi.wl%jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Thu, 15 Aug 2013 01:06:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 520C0D5B.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 520C0D5B.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 520C0D5B.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 23:06:16 -0000 > Yup ... so I'm curious about whether one cost or the other dominates > in today's home networks or what we extrapolate as future home > networks. My intuition [...] is that the penalty from routing > performance has more impact You're probably right -- right now, the multicast activity is reduced to just ARP/ND and mDNS (triple-play providers use a separate ATM circuit or Ethernet VLAN for carrying the television streams). What worries me, however, is that if we go the bridging route, we will make it difficult or even impossible to deploy multicast services in the future. > Is the IGMP code available in Linux today? As mentioned by Joel -- it appears to be included in recent kernels, although I don't know of anyone who has actually checked if it works. (I'll take this opportunity to remind people that IGMP snooping is a horrible hack. Multicast routing is much better done at the layer where it belongs.) -- Juliusz From mcr@sandelman.ca Wed Aug 14 16:14:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3032321E804D for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:14:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IvbU4tVqsgph for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A53811E81BF for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A43D20269 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id F3D8A63AB6; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 19:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1DB563AB2 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 19:12:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "homenet\@ietf.org Group" In-Reply-To: <43F9B58C-BAA2-40B5-A469-CF34B11E267F@gmail.com> References: <20130813005924.C493D3846181@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20130813011710.GB98870@mx1.yitter.info> <39DECDC5-7FA9-426B-A827-E88887572889@gmail.com> <9D866741-1DC0-4A79-9592-7CFF286A488E@fugue.com> <7CA3A3C1-2E7C-48F7-BBB8-344B054EFBDE@gmail.com> <43F9B58C-BAA2-40B5-A469-CF34B11E267F@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: Re: [homenet] Capabilities of small devices X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 23:14:06 -0000 --=-=-= Ralph Droms wrote: >> No, the point is that right now if you just take a bunch of IPv4 nat >> routers and plug them together, they work, because they're all >> translating. > Depends on how you plug them together. They will also work correctly > as bridges if plugged together correctly, too. By enabling spanning > tree bridging or waiting for SPF bridging, those devices could be > plugged together randomly and still work. They won't (in the sense that all computers won't be able to print to all printers, while simultaneously unless you also turn off the multiple DHCPv4 servers. But, we went through this two (or was it three) years ago. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUgwOw4qHRg3pndX9AQLWgAP9FUk/iuO/r13XSpT7NygVMjuwXoa5KEIh +51bY6DgV7+yWVx6J7fEdSV6fJ2dUS+6yWXKyX+ExNhY0CN5Q8QhMTvG3LDl8pof pK5ggCLcEp/in12QPDqlcYuOR6pjtxy1pU3hLaixKFZoeorwmp/Dcs3sdjoSIOSX jeuZYmPc3MM= =pcIx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--