
From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Wed Jan  8 11:03:55 2014
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Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 08:03:46 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Subject: [homenet] [Fwd: I-D Action: draft-chapin-additional-reserved-tlds-00.txt]
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Seems relevant to homenet...

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-chapin-additional-reserved-tlds-00.txt
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2014 07:11:28 -0800
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


        Title           : Additional Reserved Top Level Domains
        Authors         : Lyman Chapin
                          Mark McFadden
	Filename        : draft-chapin-additional-reserved-tlds-00.txt
	Pages           : 26
	Date            : 2014-01-08

Abstract:
   The Internet Domain Name System (DNS) defines a tree of names
   starting with root, ".", immediately below which are top level
   domain (TLD) names such as ".com" and ".us". In June 1999 RFC2606
   reserved a small number of TLD names for use in documentation
   examples, private testing, experiments, and other circumstances in
   which it is desirable to avoid conflict with current or future
   actual TLD names in the DNS.

   There has been significant evolution of Internet engineering and
   operation practices since RFC2606 was published. In February 2013
   RFC6761 defined criteria and procedures for reserving a domain name
   for special use, and established an IANA registry for such names.
   This document reserves eight domain name labels for special use in
   accordance with the criteria and procedures of RFC6761: localdomain,
   domain, lan, home, host, corp, mail, and exchange.

   It is important to note that TLD names may be reserved, in other
   contexts, for policy, political, or other reasons that are distinct
   from the IETF's concern with Internet engineering and operations.
   This document reserves TLD names only for operational and
   engineering reasons.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-chapin-additional-reserved-tlds/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chapin-additional-reserved-tlds-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
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Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt



From Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk  Wed Jan 29 01:48:13 2014
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From: Ray Bellis <Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk>
To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: IETF89 coming up fast!
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Dear WG Participants,

Just a reminder that it's now less than 5 weeks until IETF 89 in London.

Work is carrying on in the background to clear up the DISCUSS points raised=
 in the IESG review of draft-ietf-homenet-arch.  We're hoping to see a -12 =
revision come out shortly.

The submission deadline for IETF 89 is 23:59 UTC on *Friday* 14th February.=
  This is three days earlier than usual!  If you have new items to bring to=
 the group or updates that you wish to present during our session in London=
 please let the chairs know ASAP.

thanks,

Ray



From otroan@employees.org  Thu Jan 30 02:48:45 2014
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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 11:48:35 +0100
To: "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>
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Subject: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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All,

Updating the ospf prefix-assingment draft has been on my todo list for a =
long time.
Before doing so I wanted to ask the working group if there was any clear =
direction evolving.
Any views on the decisions in the flow chart attached? Anything I =
missed?

To summarize:
We need to decide, if we want prefix assignment and distribution of =
other configuration information integrated in a routing protocol. =
Depending on that decision we either need to design a separate protocol =
to do that, or we need to add support for that in a routing protocol. =
Prefix assignment is simpler with a link-state protocol, so that's why I =
have limited the choice of routing protocols for that branch. I have =
assumed there is agreement to have a single routing protocol in the =
home, and not support multiple.

cheers,
Ole



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div>All,</div><div><br></div><div>Updating the ospf =
prefix-assingment draft has been on my todo list for a long =
time.</div><div>Before doing so I wanted to ask the working group if =
there was any clear direction evolving.</div><div>Any views on the =
decisions in the flow chart attached? Anything I =
missed?</div><div><br></div><div>To summarize:</div><div>We need to =
decide, if we want prefix assignment and distribution of other =
configuration information integrated in a routing protocol. Depending on =
that decision we either need to design a separate protocol to do that, =
or we need to add support for that in a routing protocol. Prefix =
assignment is simpler with a link-state protocol, so that's why I have =
limited the choice of routing protocols for that branch. I have assumed =
there is agreement to have a single routing protocol in the home, and =
not support =
multiple.</div><div><br></div><div>cheers,</div><div>Ole</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><img height=3D"526" width=3D"471" apple-width=3D"yes" =
apple-height=3D"yes" apple-inline=3D"yes" =
id=3D"D2757057-C3E3-410E-850D-FB5255A52C91" =
src=3D"cid:3DED3C1D-48F3-4035-8BF2-42E78D78CF47@cisco.com"></body></html>=

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From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Thu Jan 30 02:58:09 2014
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From: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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Hi,

I am also interested in this direction.

Thanks for the diagram, it illustrates well.

'Tightly couple routing protocol and prefix assignment, as well as
  distribution of other configuration information'?  (yes/no)

Yes.

But,

In my understanding, there is a need to couple the prefix assignment to 
the routing protocol.  Although I am not sure how much tight, or what 
tight and loose might mean.

For example, would coupling the DHCP-PD assignment operations triggering 
routing protocol updates mean tight or loose coupling.  Or would this be 
a 100% alternative to a routing protocol-only prefix assignment solution?

I am asking because I author an inidividual draft
draft-petrescu-relay-route-pd-problem-00.txt
"Route Problem at Relay during DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation" in this space.

Alex

Le 30/01/2014 11:48, Ole Troan a écrit :
> All,
>
> Updating the ospf prefix-assingment draft has been on my todo list for a
> long time.
> Before doing so I wanted to ask the working group if there was any clear
> direction evolving.
> Any views on the decisions in the flow chart attached? Anything I missed?
>
> To summarize:
> We need to decide, if we want prefix assignment and distribution of
> other configuration information integrated in a routing protocol.
> Depending on that decision we either need to design a separate protocol
> to do that, or we need to add support for that in a routing protocol.
> Prefix assignment is simpler with a link-state protocol, so that's why I
> have limited the choice of routing protocols for that branch. I have
> assumed there is agreement to have a single routing protocol in the
> home, and not support multiple.
>
> cheers,
> Ole
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>



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> In my understanding, there is a need to couple the prefix assignment =
to the routing protocol.  Although I am not sure how much tight, or what =
tight and loose might mean.

to clarify what I meant:
tight coupling  --- integrated in a routing protocol, e.g. in =
draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment
loosely coupled --- separate (new) protocol

cheers,
Ole

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Le 30/01/2014 12:04, Ole Troan a écrit :
>> In my understanding, there is a need to couple the prefix assignment to the routing protocol.  Although I am not sure how much tight, or what tight and loose might mean.
>
> to clarify what I meant:
> tight coupling  --- integrated in a routing protocol, e.g. in draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment
> loosely coupled --- separate (new) protocol

Could it be separate (existing) protocol?

Alex

>
> cheers,
> Ole
>



From markus.stenberg@iki.fi  Thu Jan 30 03:32:01 2014
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On 30.1.2014, at 13.11, Alexandru Petrescu =
<alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> Le 30/01/2014 12:04, Ole Troan a =E9crit :
>>> In my understanding, there is a need to couple the prefix assignment =
to the routing protocol.  Although I am not sure how much tight, or what =
tight and loose might mean.
>>=20
>> to clarify what I meant:
>> tight coupling  --- integrated in a routing protocol, e.g. in =
draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment
>> loosely coupled --- separate (new) protocol
> Could it be separate (existing) protocol?

Given that it fulfills requirements, yes. I=92m not aware of one, =
though. Off the cuff requirements follow:

- ~distributed database across network (=3Devery node acts on same =
information, at least with some delay; some pruning may be possible for =
some cases, but not much; for simplification I=92d say same information =
everywhere)

- precedence mechanism for sorting out conflicts among participating =
nodes

- information about neighbors on local link(s) (and preferably also some =
precedence function for deciding e.g. who needs to do DHCPv4 server =
duties if supporting IPv4)

Given node =3D=3D router in this use case, it smells a lot like link =
state routing protocol to me. Has someone defined one without routing =
functionality as such?=20

Cheers,

-Markus=

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Alex,

>>> In my understanding, there is a need to couple the prefix assignment =
to the routing protocol.  Although I am not sure how much tight, or what =
tight and loose might mean.
>>=20
>> to clarify what I meant:
>> tight coupling  --- integrated in a routing protocol, e.g. in =
draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment
>> loosely coupled --- separate (new) protocol
>=20
> Could it be separate (existing) protocol?

if one had existed, sure.
requirements from homenet-arch (I might have missed some):
 - must support multi-homing
 - each link should be assigned a stable prefix
 - efficient allocation of prefixes
 - should support both IPv4 and IPv6

cheers,
Ole

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Le 30/01/2014 12:35, Ole Troan a écrit :
> Alex,
>
>>>> In my understanding, there is a need to couple the prefix assignment to the routing protocol.  Although I am not sure how much tight, or what tight and loose might mean.
>>>
>>> to clarify what I meant:
>>> tight coupling  --- integrated in a routing protocol, e.g. in draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment
>>> loosely coupled --- separate (new) protocol
>>
>> Could it be separate (existing) protocol?
>
> if one had existed, sure.
> requirements from homenet-arch (I might have missed some):
>   - must support multi-homing
>   - each link should be assigned a stable prefix
>   - efficient allocation of prefixes
>   - should support both IPv4 and IPv6

I meant this:

loosely coupled ---- separate (existing DHCPv6-PD) protocol triggering
                      route updates to the routing protocol.

Alex

>
> cheers,
> Ole
>



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>>> Could it be separate (existing) protocol?
>> 
>> if one had existed, sure.
>> requirements from homenet-arch (I might have missed some):
>>  - must support multi-homing
>>  - each link should be assigned a stable prefix
>>  - efficient allocation of prefixes
>>  - should support both IPv4 and IPv6
> 
> I meant this:
> 
> loosely coupled ---- separate (existing DHCPv6-PD) protocol triggering
>                     route updates to the routing protocol.

yes, DHCP PD comes up as a proposed solution quite frequently.
I just don't see how you can make DHCP PD fulfill the requirements.

cheers,
Ole

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From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Thu Jan 30 04:38:20 2014
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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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Le 30/01/2014 13:28, Ole Troan a écrit :
>>>> Could it be separate (existing) protocol?
>>>
>>> if one had existed, sure.
>>> requirements from homenet-arch (I might have missed some):
>>>   - must support multi-homing
>>>   - each link should be assigned a stable prefix
>>>   - efficient allocation of prefixes
>>>   - should support both IPv4 and IPv6
>>
>> I meant this:
>>
>> loosely coupled ---- separate (existing DHCPv6-PD) protocol triggering
>>                      route updates to the routing protocol.
>
> yes, DHCP PD comes up as a proposed solution quite frequently.
> I just don't see how you can make DHCP PD fulfill the requirements.

Well it does support multi-homing (Server allocates things to as many 
interfaces as needed), each link can be assigned a stable prefix 
(provided it triggers updates to the Routing protocol), the allocation 
is efficient (Server maintains dynamic databases, leases) and it 
supports both IPv4 ('IPv4 subnet allocation' RFC6656, DHCP transition et 
alia), and IPv6.

I miss something?

Alex

>
> cheers,
> Ole
>



From SRS0=jkC5=XE=darou.fr=pierre.pfister@bounces.m4x.org  Thu Jan 30 04:46:34 2014
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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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Le 30 janv. 2014 =E0 13:38, Alexandru Petrescu =
<alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> a =E9crit :

> Le 30/01/2014 13:28, Ole Troan a =E9crit :
>>>>> Could it be separate (existing) protocol?
>>>>=20
>>>> if one had existed, sure.
>>>> requirements from homenet-arch (I might have missed some):
>>>>  - must support multi-homing
>>>>  - each link should be assigned a stable prefix
>>>>  - efficient allocation of prefixes
>>>>  - should support both IPv4 and IPv6
>>>=20
>>> I meant this:
>>>=20
>>> loosely coupled ---- separate (existing DHCPv6-PD) protocol =
triggering
>>>                     route updates to the routing protocol.
>>=20
>> yes, DHCP PD comes up as a proposed solution quite frequently.
>> I just don't see how you can make DHCP PD fulfill the requirements.
>=20
> Well it does support multi-homing (Server allocates things to as many =
interfaces as needed), each link can be assigned a stable prefix =
(provided it triggers updates to the Routing protocol), the allocation =
is efficient (Server maintains dynamic databases, leases) and it =
supports both IPv4 ('IPv4 subnet allocation' RFC6656, DHCP transition et =
alia), and IPv6.
>=20
> I miss something?

Well, in some cases DHCP seems to work, but not when you start imagining =
multi-homed networks with multiple routers. Or maybe you can tell me how =
to solve this situation with DHCP:

You have ISP1 connected with Router 1. ISP2 connected with Router 2. =
Router 1, Router 2, and a third Router (Router 3), are connected on the =
same link.=20
ISP1 is delegated the prefix A/56 to Router 1. ISP2 is delegating the =
prefix B/56 to Router 2.

A host is connected behind Router 3. How can it get addresses from both =
prefixes ?

Cheers,

Pierre


>=20
> Alex
>=20
>>=20
>> cheers,
>> Ole
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


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Cc: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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Pierre,

Thanks for the reply.

Le 30/01/2014 13:46, Pierre Pfister a écrit :
>
> Le 30 janv. 2014 à 13:38, Alexandru Petrescu
> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
>> Le 30/01/2014 13:28, Ole Troan a écrit :
>>>>>> Could it be separate (existing) protocol?
>>>>>
>>>>> if one had existed, sure. requirements from homenet-arch (I
>>>>> might have missed some): - must support multi-homing - each
>>>>> link should be assigned a stable prefix - efficient
>>>>> allocation of prefixes - should support both IPv4 and IPv6
>>>>
>>>> I meant this:
>>>>
>>>> loosely coupled ---- separate (existing DHCPv6-PD) protocol
>>>> triggering route updates to the routing protocol.
>>>
>>> yes, DHCP PD comes up as a proposed solution quite frequently. I
>>> just don't see how you can make DHCP PD fulfill the
>>> requirements.
>>
>> Well it does support multi-homing (Server allocates things to as
>> many interfaces as needed), each link can be assigned a stable
>> prefix (provided it triggers updates to the Routing protocol), the
>> allocation is efficient (Server maintains dynamic databases,
>> leases) and it supports both IPv4 ('IPv4 subnet allocation'
>> RFC6656, DHCP transition et alia), and IPv6.
>>
>> I miss something?
>
> Well, in some cases DHCP seems to work, but not when you start
> imagining multi-homed networks with multiple routers. Or maybe you
> can tell me how to solve this situation with DHCP:
>
> You have ISP1 connected with Router 1. ISP2 connected with Router 2.
> Router 1, Router 2, and a third Router (Router 3), are connected on
> the same link. ISP1 is delegated the prefix A/56 to Router 1. ISP2
> is delegating the prefix B/56 to Router 2.
>
> A host is connected behind Router 3.

Bear with me for a moment... is this topology what you meant?


       ISP1               ISP2
        |                  |
     +-------+          +-------+
     |Router1|A/56      |Router2|B/56
     +-------+          +-------+
        |                  |
      --+-------+----------+--
                |
                |
            +-------+
            |Router3|
            +-------+
                |
              +----+
              |Host|(how can it get an address from A, and from B)
              +----+


> How can it get addresses from both prefixes ?

Before I try to figure it out - is the above topology what is meant? 
Something I misplaced?

Alex

>
> Cheers,
>
> Pierre
>
>
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>>
>>> cheers, Ole
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ homenet mailing
>> list homenet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>
>
>



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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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Le 30 janv. 2014 =E0 13:55, Alexandru Petrescu =
<alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> a =E9crit :

> Pierre,
>=20
> Thanks for the reply.
>=20
> Le 30/01/2014 13:46, Pierre Pfister a =E9crit :
>>=20
>> Le 30 janv. 2014 =E0 13:38, Alexandru Petrescu
>> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> a =E9crit :
>>=20
>>> Le 30/01/2014 13:28, Ole Troan a =E9crit :
>>>>>>> Could it be separate (existing) protocol?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> if one had existed, sure. requirements from homenet-arch (I
>>>>>> might have missed some): - must support multi-homing - each
>>>>>> link should be assigned a stable prefix - efficient
>>>>>> allocation of prefixes - should support both IPv4 and IPv6
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I meant this:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> loosely coupled ---- separate (existing DHCPv6-PD) protocol
>>>>> triggering route updates to the routing protocol.
>>>>=20
>>>> yes, DHCP PD comes up as a proposed solution quite frequently. I
>>>> just don't see how you can make DHCP PD fulfill the
>>>> requirements.
>>>=20
>>> Well it does support multi-homing (Server allocates things to as
>>> many interfaces as needed), each link can be assigned a stable
>>> prefix (provided it triggers updates to the Routing protocol), the
>>> allocation is efficient (Server maintains dynamic databases,
>>> leases) and it supports both IPv4 ('IPv4 subnet allocation'
>>> RFC6656, DHCP transition et alia), and IPv6.
>>>=20
>>> I miss something?
>>=20
>> Well, in some cases DHCP seems to work, but not when you start
>> imagining multi-homed networks with multiple routers. Or maybe you
>> can tell me how to solve this situation with DHCP:
>>=20
>> You have ISP1 connected with Router 1. ISP2 connected with Router 2.
>> Router 1, Router 2, and a third Router (Router 3), are connected on
>> the same link. ISP1 is delegated the prefix A/56 to Router 1. ISP2
>> is delegating the prefix B/56 to Router 2.
>>=20
>> A host is connected behind Router 3.
>=20
> Bear with me for a moment... is this topology what you meant?
>=20
>=20
>      ISP1               ISP2
>       |                  |
>    +-------+          +-------+
>    |Router1|A/56      |Router2|B/56
>    +-------+          +-------+
>       |                  |
>     --+-------+----------+--
>               |
>               |
>           +-------+
>           |Router3|
>           +-------+
>               |
>             +----+
>             |Host|(how can it get an address from A, and from B)
>             +----+
>=20
>=20
>> How can it get addresses from both prefixes ?
>=20
> Before I try to figure it out - is the above topology what is meant? =
Something I misplaced?

It is correct.=20

Pierre

>=20
> Alex
>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> Pierre
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Alex
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> cheers, Ole
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________ homenet mailing
>>> list homenet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20


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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 14:03:32 +0100
Message-Id: <2922CC94-540D-4215-899B-4722BD1C5EBC@employees.org>
References: <C0F2DB0D-176D-4FDD-BC6A-8249DFDDF6D7@employees.org> <52EA3032.3050703@gmail.com> <BA48563E-9E2E-4865-A85C-3AFA56DABF0C@employees.org> <52EA3361.1010501@gmail.com> <2EB6289E-C7FD-481F-99F9-E35730245943@employees.org> <52EA442D.3020707@gmail.com> <DB3D5008-D2DB-4CEC-9C80-DD00429F58FC@employees.org> <52EA47AA.90302@gmail.com> <1FE00515-A7AD-4C48-A7F2-63BA8696D818@darou.fr> <52EA4BB1.9010607@gmail.com>
To: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>, Pierre Pfister <pierre.pfister@darou.fr>
Subject: [homenet] DHCP PD (was: Homenet protocol decisions)
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Alex,

changing the thread since this seems to diverge from getting answers to =
the questions I asked.

cheers,
Ole


On 30 Jan 2014, at 13:55 , Alexandru Petrescu =
<alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> Pierre,
>=20
> Thanks for the reply.
>=20
> Le 30/01/2014 13:46, Pierre Pfister a =E9crit :
>>=20
>> Le 30 janv. 2014 =E0 13:38, Alexandru Petrescu
>> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> a =E9crit :
>>=20
>>> Le 30/01/2014 13:28, Ole Troan a =E9crit :
>>>>>>> Could it be separate (existing) protocol?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> if one had existed, sure. requirements from homenet-arch (I
>>>>>> might have missed some): - must support multi-homing - each
>>>>>> link should be assigned a stable prefix - efficient
>>>>>> allocation of prefixes - should support both IPv4 and IPv6
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I meant this:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> loosely coupled ---- separate (existing DHCPv6-PD) protocol
>>>>> triggering route updates to the routing protocol.
>>>>=20
>>>> yes, DHCP PD comes up as a proposed solution quite frequently. I
>>>> just don't see how you can make DHCP PD fulfill the
>>>> requirements.
>>>=20
>>> Well it does support multi-homing (Server allocates things to as
>>> many interfaces as needed), each link can be assigned a stable
>>> prefix (provided it triggers updates to the Routing protocol), the
>>> allocation is efficient (Server maintains dynamic databases,
>>> leases) and it supports both IPv4 ('IPv4 subnet allocation'
>>> RFC6656, DHCP transition et alia), and IPv6.
>>>=20
>>> I miss something?
>>=20
>> Well, in some cases DHCP seems to work, but not when you start
>> imagining multi-homed networks with multiple routers. Or maybe you
>> can tell me how to solve this situation with DHCP:
>>=20
>> You have ISP1 connected with Router 1. ISP2 connected with Router 2.
>> Router 1, Router 2, and a third Router (Router 3), are connected on
>> the same link. ISP1 is delegated the prefix A/56 to Router 1. ISP2
>> is delegating the prefix B/56 to Router 2.
>>=20
>> A host is connected behind Router 3.
>=20
> Bear with me for a moment... is this topology what you meant?
>=20
>=20
>      ISP1               ISP2
>       |                  |
>    +-------+          +-------+
>    |Router1|A/56      |Router2|B/56
>    +-------+          +-------+
>       |                  |
>     --+-------+----------+--
>               |
>               |
>           +-------+
>           |Router3|
>           +-------+
>               |
>             +----+
>             |Host|(how can it get an address from A, and from B)
>             +----+
>=20
>=20
>> How can it get addresses from both prefixes ?
>=20
> Before I try to figure it out - is the above topology what is meant? =
Something I misplaced?
>=20
> Alex
>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> Pierre
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Alex
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> cheers, Ole
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________ homenet mailing
>>> list homenet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


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From swmike@swm.pp.se  Thu Jan 30 05:18:50 2014
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Ole Troan wrote:

> We need to decide, if we want prefix assignment and distribution of 
> other configuration information integrated in a routing protocol. 
> Depending on that decision we either need to design a separate protocol 
> to do that, or we need to add support for that in a routing protocol. 
> Prefix assignment is simpler with a link-state protocol, so that's why I 
> have limited the choice of routing protocols for that branch. I have 
> assumed there is agreement to have a single routing protocol in the 
> home, and not support multiple.

I agree with the decision chart.

While I initially was very enthusiastic about integrating prefix 
assignment into a routing protocol, I am now more sceptic to this 
approach.

So question if we don't use the routing protocol for prefix assignment, 
what should go in there? Should we have a new protocol for service 
discovery? Topology discovery? Anything else? Anyhow, the src/dst 
enhancements for the IGP has to be done, I don't see much alternative to 
that.

Anyhow, I don't think DHCPv6-PD is a good method to assign prefixes to 
interfaces.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

From branimir.rajtar.ietf@gmail.com  Thu Jan 30 06:54:00 2014
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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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Hi all,

I would like to clarify what is meant by "distribution of other
configuration information"? We're all talking about distributing prefixes,
but what about SIP and similar configuration parameters? In my opinion,
it's not something I would like to see being distributed in OSPF/IS-IS.
It's just not something routing protocols should be doing.

That being said, the alternative option is to define a new protocol... Over
the last year, I've been playing with the idea of a protocol that uses the
DNS idea of recursion (and discussing it with a couple of people). Let me
clarify with the example of a SIP server:
1. we have a SIP server at the ISP
2. my home has 7 cascaded HGWs and none of them know the address of the SIP
server
3. I want to connect my analogue phone to the sixth HGW and so this HGW
needs to find out the SIP server address - he therefore asks his upstream
HGW (the fifth in line) for it (of course, using this new and fancy
protocol)
4. the fifth doesn't know it and asks the fourth, the fourth asks the
third, etc.
5. the first one (the one connected to the ISP) gets the request and
requests the ISP via DHCPv6 for it
6. upon receipt, the first forwards the information to the second, the
second tells the third, etc. until the 6th receives it and then I can use
my phone

This approach would have to be worked on (what about multiple upstream
links, routing loops?), but I like it. It could be extended to support the
delegation of prefixes, active detection of "border" HGWs (when do you send
out DHCPv6?)...

Any thoughts?

Branimir



On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Ole Troan wrote:
>
>  We need to decide, if we want prefix assignment and distribution of other
>> configuration information integrated in a routing protocol. Depending on
>> that decision we either need to design a separate protocol to do that, or
>> we need to add support for that in a routing protocol. Prefix assignment is
>> simpler with a link-state protocol, so that's why I have limited the choice
>> of routing protocols for that branch. I have assumed there is agreement to
>> have a single routing protocol in the home, and not support multiple.
>>
>
> I agree with the decision chart.
>
> While I initially was very enthusiastic about integrating prefix
> assignment into a routing protocol, I am now more sceptic to this approach.
>
> So question if we don't use the routing protocol for prefix assignment,
> what should go in there? Should we have a new protocol for service
> discovery? Topology discovery? Anything else? Anyhow, the src/dst
> enhancements for the IGP has to be done, I don't see much alternative to
> that.
>
> Anyhow, I don't think DHCPv6-PD is a good method to assign prefixes to
> interfaces.
>
> --
> Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>

--089e0102ddaeed2fe004f13139c5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi all,<div><br></div><div>I would like to clarify what is=
 meant by &quot;distribution of other configuration information&quot;? We&#=
39;re all talking about distributing prefixes, but what about SIP and simil=
ar configuration parameters? In my opinion, it&#39;s not something I would =
like to see being distributed in OSPF/IS-IS. It&#39;s just not something ro=
uting protocols should be doing.</div>
<div><br></div><div>That being said, the alternative option is to define a =
new protocol... Over the last year, I&#39;ve been playing with the idea of =
a protocol that uses the DNS idea of recursion (and discussing it with a co=
uple of people). Let me clarify with the example of a SIP server:</div>
<div>1. we have a SIP server at the ISP</div><div>2. my home has 7 cascaded=
 HGWs and none of them know the address of the SIP server</div><div>3. I wa=
nt to connect my analogue phone to the sixth HGW and so this HGW needs to f=
ind out the SIP server address - he therefore asks his upstream HGW (the fi=
fth in line) for it (of course, using this new and fancy protocol)</div>
<div>4. the fifth doesn&#39;t know it and asks the fourth, the fourth asks =
the third, etc.</div><div>5. the first one (the one connected to the ISP) g=
ets the request and requests the ISP via DHCPv6 for it</div><div>6. upon re=
ceipt, the first forwards the information to the second, the second tells t=
he third, etc. until the 6th receives it and then I can use my phone</div>
<div><br></div><div>This approach would have to be worked on (what about mu=
ltiple upstream links, routing loops?), but I like it. It could be extended=
 to support the delegation of prefixes, active detection of &quot;border&qu=
ot; HGWs (when do you send out DHCPv6?)...</div>
<div><br></div><div>Any thoughts?</div><div><br></div><div>Branimir</div><d=
iv><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se" target=3D"_blank">swmike@swm.pp.se=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Ole T=
roan wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
We need to decide, if we want prefix assignment and distribution of other c=
onfiguration information integrated in a routing protocol. Depending on tha=
t decision we either need to design a separate protocol to do that, or we n=
eed to add support for that in a routing protocol. Prefix assignment is sim=
pler with a link-state protocol, so that&#39;s why I have limited the choic=
e of routing protocols for that branch. I have assumed there is agreement t=
o have a single routing protocol in the home, and not support multiple.<br>

</blockquote>
<br></div>
I agree with the decision chart.<br>
<br>
While I initially was very enthusiastic about integrating prefix assignment=
 into a routing protocol, I am now more sceptic to this approach.<br>
<br>
So question if we don&#39;t use the routing protocol for prefix assignment,=
 what should go in there? Should we have a new protocol for service discove=
ry? Topology discovery? Anything else? Anyhow, the src/dst enhancements for=
 the IGP has to be done, I don&#39;t see much alternative to that.<br>

<br>
Anyhow, I don&#39;t think DHCPv6-PD is a good method to assign prefixes to =
interfaces.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Mikael Abrahamsson =A0 =A0email: <a href=3D"mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se" target=
=3D"_blank">swmike@swm.pp.se</a></font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div cl=
ass=3D"h5"><br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
homenet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:homenet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">homenet@ietf.org</a><=
br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/homenet</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--089e0102ddaeed2fe004f13139c5--

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To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 5:18 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrot=
e:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Ole Troan wrote:
>
>> We need to decide, if we want prefix assignment and distribution of othe=
r
>> configuration information integrated in a routing protocol. Depending on

don't want it in the routing protocol.

>> that decision we either need to design a separate protocol to do that, o=
r we
>> need to add support for that in a routing protocol.

>> Prefix assignment is
>> simpler with a link-state protocol,

I don't have any love for link-state personally.

> so that's why I have limited the choice
>> of routing protocols for that branch. I have assumed there is agreement =
to
>> have a single routing protocol in the home, and not support multiple.

I'm interested only in a routing protocol that works well with wired, wirel=
ess,
and the internet of things.

I don't think anyone will ever agree to a single routing protocol decision
unless the protocol meets those requirements well, and is battle tested
to meet those requirements well. And none do.

> I agree with the decision chart.
>
> While I initially was very enthusiastic about integrating prefix assignme=
nt
> into a routing protocol, I am now more sceptic to this approach.

I was unenthusiastic, (as are the maintainers of every routing daemon
I know of) and wanted to leverage ahcpd's methods (if not
necessarily the existing version of the protocol) of propagating info,
pre-routing information.

> So question if we don't use the routing protocol for prefix assignment, w=
hat
> should go in there? Should we have a new protocol for service discovery?

It is my hope that hybrid-proxy-mdns solves this. Certainly mdns is pretty
good about picking up dynamically changed

> Topology discovery? Anything else? Anyhow, the src/dst enhancements for t=
he
> IGP has to be done, I don't see much alternative to that.

src/dst support landed in openwrt Barrier Breaker and cerowrt a week
or two back.
(it's still kind of rough). I also finally got up on comcast ipv6 personall=
y.

In addition to src/dst semi-solving a raft of problems (bcp38 for ipv6
anyone?), it exposed others
like

-1) Getting a swarm of RA's from upstream triggered a firewall reload
every few seconds,
     which took a few seconds to reload, leading to an unusable ipv6
implementation.

   (if you are running cerowrt or openwrt on comcast DO upgrade. Ghu help y=
ou if
    you are merely on an "ipv6 certified" router)

0) comcast is only distributing a /60.

It still seems that being able to distribute and route between /128s is nee=
ded,
and nd proxying for folk that are only doing a /64 and have subnets.

1) in the multi-homing case you want requests from a local dns server
to be sourced
    from the right network to the right ISP-provided forwarder. (think
I have a fix for
    that but it involves abandoning resolv.conf for specific dnsmasq
configuration.

2) most vpn technologies are not aware of src/dst routing decisions and rou=
ting
    protocols can route around them, mistakenly. (tried strongswan so far)

3) Boy do we need to be able to forcibly retract ips and routes after
a reboot and
    acquisition of a new subnet and loss of an old.

   The only way I can see clear to doing this is to support some form
of authentication.
   "I got this subnet from this source, and now it's telling me to
retract it in favor of
    this subnet"

4) the vast increase in ipv6 related multicast led me to finally
violate the 802.11 standard and
    fix wireless multicast rates to 9mbits. So far that hasn't broken anyth=
ing.

> Anyhow, I don't think DHCPv6-PD is a good method to assign prefixes to
> interfaces.

Well, it works on the edge gateway, not so much on interior.

> --
> Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet



--=20
Dave T=E4ht

Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.=
html

From markus.stenberg@iki.fi  Thu Jan 30 08:46:28 2014
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To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
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Cc: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>, "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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On 30.1.2014, at 17.50, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> don=92t want it in the routing protocol.

Why not? You can stick in kitchen sink there! ;-)

>>> of routing protocols for that branch. I have assumed there is =
agreement to
>>> have a single routing protocol in the home, and not support =
multiple.
> I'm interested only in a routing protocol that works well with wired, =
wireless,
> and the internet of things.
>=20
> I don't think anyone will ever agree to a single routing protocol =
decision
> unless the protocol meets those requirements well, and is battle =
tested
> to meet those requirements well. And none do.

The definition of =91works=92 varies by people, so by that definition, I =
don=92t think there is much to see here.

>> So question if we don't use the routing protocol for prefix =
assignment, what
>> should go in there? Should we have a new protocol for service =
discovery?
> It is my hope that hybrid-proxy-mdns solves this. Certainly mdns is =
pretty
> good about picking up dynamically changed

hybrid proxy fixes some things ( see =
https://github.com/sbyx/ohybridproxy for a minimalist implementation =
that seems to work, more or less ). However, it needs quite a bit of =
configuration on top of that that you can=92t squeeze in easily; or at =
least, you wind up with either

- configuration coming from some other protocol (like my old OSPF+SD =
draft), or
- dns-updates + god DNS server + god DNS server replication within your =
home

I=92m not sure which is worse, but neither sounds very appealing.

> It still seems that being able to distribute and route between /128s =
is needed,
> and nd proxying for folk that are only doing a /64 and have subnets.

Lots of nodes still don=92t do stateful DHCPv6 (and even fewer do AHCP =
or something else); obviously, we could just ignore them and point at =
RFC6434? Hmm.

> 1) in the multi-homing case you want requests from a local dns server
> to be sourced
>    from the right network to the right ISP-provided forwarder. (think
> I have a fix for
>    that but it involves abandoning resolv.conf for specific dnsmasq
> configuration.

Does it really work without host changes? Let=92s assume you have =
prefixes A and B from ISPs ISP_A, ISP_B. You have host that has =
addresses in A and B. It chooses to point it=92s upstream resolver at =
your dnsmasq on your router. How do you figure which upstream DNS server =
to use? A and B source address won=92t help in this case, as DNS =
resolution is done with =91point SOMETHING at configured DNS server=92 =
in most current hosts.

> 4) the vast increase in ipv6 related multicast led me to finally
> violate the 802.11 standard and
>    fix wireless multicast rates to 9mbits. So far that hasn=92t broken =
anything.

Oho. Do you have concrete numbers on how much multicast you=92re seeing =
in and what sort of topology? Just base IPv6 stuff or e.g. mdns?

Cheers,

-Markus=

From dave.taht@gmail.com  Thu Jan 30 09:30:48 2014
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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi> w=
rote:
> On 30.1.2014, at 17.50, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>> don't want it in the routing protocol.
>
> Why not? You can stick in kitchen sink there! ;-)
>
>>>> of routing protocols for that branch. I have assumed there is agreemen=
t to
>>>> have a single routing protocol in the home, and not support multiple.
>> I'm interested only in a routing protocol that works well with wired, wi=
reless,
>> and the internet of things.
>>
>> I don't think anyone will ever agree to a single routing protocol decisi=
on
>> unless the protocol meets those requirements well, and is battle tested
>> to meet those requirements well. And none do.
>
> The definition of 'works' varies by people, so by that definition, I don'=
t think there is much to see here.

Much work is required here, and co-ordination with the wgs on internet
of things would make sense.

And running code, in upstream versions of the relevant daemons.

>>> So question if we don't use the routing protocol for prefix assignment,=
 what
>>> should go in there? Should we have a new protocol for service discovery=
?
>> It is my hope that hybrid-proxy-mdns solves this. Certainly mdns is pret=
ty
>> good about picking up dynamically changed
>
> hybrid proxy fixes some things ( see https://github.com/sbyx/ohybridproxy=
 for a minimalist implementation that seems to work, more or less ). Howeve=
r, it needs quite a bit of configuration on top of that that you can't sque=
eze in easily; or at least, you wind up with either
>
> - configuration coming from some other protocol (like my old OSPF+SD draf=
t), or
> - dns-updates + god DNS server + god DNS server replication within your h=
ome
>
> I'm not sure which is worse, but neither sounds very appealing.

Yep, we need a replacement for dns, that is replicable (uses a dht?),
robust, and secure. Anyone?

>> It still seems that being able to distribute and route between /128s is =
needed,
>> and nd proxying for folk that are only doing a /64 and have subnets.
>
> Lots of nodes still don't do stateful DHCPv6 (and even fewer do AHCP or s=
omething else); obviously, we could just ignore them and point at RFC6434? =
Hmm.

I don't mind pushing people at the standards at all :) I never grokked
much of the overall emphasis on distributing /64s everywhere though.

the problem I've long had to deal with is only getting a single /64 at
best in a routed network (and /60 doesn't help much either).

ahcp has and has been for 6 years on linux

apt-get install babeld # pulls in ahcp
edit /etc/default/ahcpd to add your interfaces and specify -6 only
edit /etc/ahcp/ahcp-script.sh # to more sanely add servers

walla. you get /128s.

dhcpv6 is similar, of course. Presently openwrt is handing out /128s
for stateful dhcpv6, I don't know if that's intended.

>> 1) in the multi-homing case you want requests from a local dns server
>> to be sourced
>>    from the right network to the right ISP-provided forwarder. (think
>> I have a fix for
>>    that but it involves abandoning resolv.conf for specific dnsmasq
>> configuration.
>
> Does it really work without host changes? Let's assume you have prefixes =
A and B from ISPs ISP_A,

yes.

>ISP_B. You have host that has addresses in A and B. It chooses to point it=
's upstream resolver at your dnsmasq on your router. How do you figure whic=
h upstream DNS server to use? A and B source address won't help in this cas=
e, as DNS resolution is done with 'point SOMETHING at configured DNS server=
' in most current hosts.

in-home hosts can point to any local dns server over any ip address
type, be it ipv4, link local, ula, or some set of ISP provided
address.

on the gateway the local dns server needs to distinguish from what ISP
was derived the relevant source
addresses, so it can issue queries to an upstream dns server, which
involves abandoning leveraging
/etc/resolv.conf.auto, for a dnsmasq specific configuration:

cat /tmp/dnsmasq.d/comcast.conf
server=3D2001:558:feed::1@260x:y:z::1
server=3D2001:558:feed::2@260x:y:z::1

Bind also can do the same, but the syntax is more involved.

The in-home dns server also needs to ensure it only responds to
queries from internal hosts (so as not to become a open resolver),
presently that's done by ignoring queries from the external
interface(s). It would
be nice if queries from external hosts for the AAAA records for your
in-home domain worked. Are there
any dynamic dns providers working with AAAAs yet?

incidentally one thing that could be used specifically for dns is to
give the server it's own ipv6
address to play in, thus freeing up all ports to protect against
things like the kaminsky attack, and
better being able to correctly handle queries from the universe.
Another option is run dns on
a separate box, which conceptually hands the address awareness problem
back to some sort of protocol.

(Personally I see a lot of homes not running a local dns server and
relying on mdns internally instead.)

I was very happy to start routing all my dns traffic over ipv6
recently, in saving udp4 ports for
other uses. The impact of running a local dnsrbl can drop
significantly if NXDOMAIN is honored
by the upstream server. I merely turned off getting ISP nameservers
via dhcp4 and get them from
dhcpv6 on the gateway.

I have proposed syntax for dealing with reverse lookups to the
dnsmasq-discuss list.

>
>> 4) the vast increase in ipv6 related multicast led me to finally
>> violate the 802.11 standard and
>>    fix wireless multicast rates to 9mbits. So far that hasn't broken any=
thing.
>
> Oho. Do you have concrete numbers on how much multicast you're seeing in =
and what sort of topology? Just base IPv6 stuff or e.g. mdns?

What I have at the moment is indirectly observable effects

>
> Cheers,
>
> -Markus



--=20
Dave T=E4ht

Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.=
html

From otroan@employees.org  Thu Jan 30 13:05:40 2014
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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 22:04:59 +0100
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References: <C0F2DB0D-176D-4FDD-BC6A-8249DFDDF6D7@employees.org> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1401301408510.11807@uplift.swm.pp.se> <CAEUFpyyz9W4JTHNa11Hurz8TehR+pUxXguQnGqdpzRbOF5Y05A@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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> I would like to clarify what is meant by "distribution of other =
configuration information"? We're all talking about distributing =
prefixes, but what about SIP and similar configuration parameters? In my =
opinion, it's not something I would like to see being distributed in =
OSPF/IS-IS. It's just not something routing protocols should be doing.

by other configuration information I was thinking of two types of =
information:
 - information that is required by the other routers in the home =
network.
   e.g. zone information required for hybrid mDNS proxies
 - information that is passed around to the routers, and then passed on =
to the hosts using RA or DHCP:
   e.g. DNS recursive resolvers, DNS server selection policy, SAS/DAS =
selection policy

I think there is an important 'scoping' here. the mechanisms here should =
be used to configure the function of the routers in the home network, =
and pass information to the hosts to configure the _network_ layer.

I don't quite see how you can (or should) configure applications this =
way.

cheers,
Ole


>=20
> That being said, the alternative option is to define a new protocol... =
Over the last year, I've been playing with the idea of a protocol that =
uses the DNS idea of recursion (and discussing it with a couple of =
people). Let me clarify with the example of a SIP server:
> 1. we have a SIP server at the ISP
> 2. my home has 7 cascaded HGWs and none of them know the address of =
the SIP server
> 3. I want to connect my analogue phone to the sixth HGW and so this =
HGW needs to find out the SIP server address - he therefore asks his =
upstream HGW (the fifth in line) for it (of course, using this new and =
fancy protocol)
> 4. the fifth doesn't know it and asks the fourth, the fourth asks the =
third, etc.
> 5. the first one (the one connected to the ISP) gets the request and =
requests the ISP via DHCPv6 for it
> 6. upon receipt, the first forwards the information to the second, the =
second tells the third, etc. until the 6th receives it and then I can =
use my phone
>=20
> This approach would have to be worked on (what about multiple upstream =
links, routing loops?), but I like it. It could be extended to support =
the delegation of prefixes, active detection of "border" HGWs (when do =
you send out DHCPv6?)...
>=20
> Any thoughts?
>=20
> Branimir
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> =
wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Ole Troan wrote:
>=20
> We need to decide, if we want prefix assignment and distribution of =
other configuration information integrated in a routing protocol. =
Depending on that decision we either need to design a separate protocol =
to do that, or we need to add support for that in a routing protocol. =
Prefix assignment is simpler with a link-state protocol, so that's why I =
have limited the choice of routing protocols for that branch. I have =
assumed there is agreement to have a single routing protocol in the =
home, and not support multiple.
>=20
> I agree with the decision chart.
>=20
> While I initially was very enthusiastic about integrating prefix =
assignment into a routing protocol, I am now more sceptic to this =
approach.
>=20
> So question if we don't use the routing protocol for prefix =
assignment, what should go in there? Should we have a new protocol for =
service discovery? Topology discovery? Anything else? Anyhow, the =
src/dst enhancements for the IGP has to be done, I don't see much =
alternative to that.
>=20
> Anyhow, I don't think DHCPv6-PD is a good method to assign prefixes to =
interfaces.
>=20
> --=20
> Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 2:48 AM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:

> We need to decide, if we want prefix assignment and distribution of other
> configuration information integrated in a routing protocol.
>

I think the two should be in the same protocol, because routing and
addressing are tightly coupled. Fundamentally, there is no point in
configuring an address on a host if the homenet doesn't have reachability
to it - because you can't use that address to talk to anyone else in the
homenet.

If the routing protocol and the prefix distribution protocol are separate,
then they can end up with different ideas on what prefix is on a given
link. That will lead to blackholing.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, Jan 30, 2014 at 2:48 AM, Ole Troan <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:otroan@employees.org" target=3D"_blank">otroan@employees.org</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>We =
need to decide, if we want prefix assignment and distribution of other conf=
iguration information integrated in a routing protocol.</div>


</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think the two should be in the sam=
e protocol, because routing and addressing are tightly coupled. Fundamental=
ly, there is no point in configuring an address on a host if the homenet do=
esn&#39;t have reachability to it - because you can&#39;t use that address =
to talk to anyone else in the homenet.</div>


<div><br></div><div>If the routing protocol and the prefix distribution pro=
tocol are separate, then they can end up with different ideas on what prefi=
x is on a given link. That will lead to blackholing.</div>
</div></div></div>

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Dave,

> 1) in the multi-homing case you want requests from a local dns server
> to be sourced
>    from the right network to the right ISP-provided forwarder. (think
> I have a fix for
>    that but it involves abandoning resolv.conf for specific dnsmasq
> configuration.

I can't quite see how you can do that. given that typically the DNS =
lookup is done prior
to the choice of source address (choice of outgoing link).

RFC6731 specifies a policy that can be distributed to hosts. (which =
would typically go in a homenet protocol).
 it is unfortunate that in some VPN / walled garden scenarios there are =
split DNS, if it wasn't this wouldn't have been a problem.

I'm unsure what the right answer is with regards to using recursive =
resolvers outside of your own administrative domain.
DNS forwarders make an attractive target for surveillance.

cheers,
Ole



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Cc: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>, "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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On 31/01/2014 00:35, Ole Troan wrote:
> Alex,
> 
>>>> In my understanding, there is a need to couple the prefix assignment to the routing protocol.  Although I am not sure how much tight, or what tight and loose might mean.
>>> to clarify what I meant:
>>> tight coupling  --- integrated in a routing protocol, e.g. in draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment
>>> loosely coupled --- separate (new) protocol
>> Could it be separate (existing) protocol?
> 
> if one had existed, sure.
> requirements from homenet-arch (I might have missed some):
>  - must support multi-homing
>  - each link should be assigned a stable prefix
>  - efficient allocation of prefixes
>  - should support both IPv4 and IPv6

I think you need to add
 - must allow source-address-based next hop routing
 - must support multiple prefixes per subnet
 - must guarantee consistency with routing

(The last one doesn't mean "must be provided by routing protocol",
but it does mean that whatever box generates the PD message
MUST be configured with the same information as the routers.)

And also
 - must be zero-conf as far as the end user is concerned

I actually don't see how to separate this discussion (PD)
from the discussion about how to announce multiple
first-hop (a.k.a. default) routers.

I also don't see how to separate it from the discussion
of autonomic networking that is starting in NMRG, because
of the zero-conf requirement.

    Brian

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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Brian,

>> requirements from homenet-arch (I might have missed some):
>> - must support multi-homing
>> - each link should be assigned a stable prefix
>> - efficient allocation of prefixes
>> - should support both IPv4 and IPv6
>=20
> I think you need to add
> - must allow source-address-based next hop routing

care to elaborate why you think so?
in my mind addressing !=3D routing

> - must support multiple prefixes per subnet

yes, multiple "site prefixes", multiple assignments from the same =
site-prefix should be avoided though.

> - must guarantee consistency with routing
>=20
> (The last one doesn't mean "must be provided by routing protocol",
> but it does mean that whatever box generates the PD message
> MUST be configured with the same information as the routers.)

absolutely.

> And also
> - must be zero-conf as far as the end user is concerned

yes. in the flow-chart I have that as "auto conf"

> I actually don't see how to separate this discussion (PD)
> from the discussion about how to announce multiple
> first-hop (a.k.a. default) routers.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "announce multiple first-hop =
routers".
is it different than the multihoming support requirement?
with regards to terminology. I prefer prefix assignment (PA). and use =
delegation when the process is between different administrative domains.

> I also don't see how to separate it from the discussion
> of autonomic networking that is starting in NMRG, because
> of the zero-conf requirement.

possibly. there are a few autonomic related drafts submitted to homenet =
already. as far as I can see they are about building trusted =
adjacencies. (which could be a prerequisite for prefix assignment).

cheers,
Ole

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On 31/01/2014 10:53, Ole Troan wrote:
> Brian,
> 
>>> requirements from homenet-arch (I might have missed some):
>>> - must support multi-homing
>>> - each link should be assigned a stable prefix
>>> - efficient allocation of prefixes
>>> - should support both IPv4 and IPv6
>> I think you need to add
>> - must allow source-address-based next hop routing
> 
> care to elaborate why you think so?
> in my mind addressing != routing

Well, it probably doesn't belong here, but we may need
different first hops to reach different exit routers
in the general case. However, yes, it's not needed as
part of PD itself.

   Brian

> 
>> - must support multiple prefixes per subnet
> 
> yes, multiple "site prefixes", multiple assignments from the same site-prefix should be avoided though.
> 
>> - must guarantee consistency with routing
>>
>> (The last one doesn't mean "must be provided by routing protocol",
>> but it does mean that whatever box generates the PD message
>> MUST be configured with the same information as the routers.)
> 
> absolutely.
> 
>> And also
>> - must be zero-conf as far as the end user is concerned
> 
> yes. in the flow-chart I have that as "auto conf"
> 
>> I actually don't see how to separate this discussion (PD)
>> from the discussion about how to announce multiple
>> first-hop (a.k.a. default) routers.
> 
> I'm not quite sure what you mean by "announce multiple first-hop routers".
> is it different than the multihoming support requirement?
> with regards to terminology. I prefer prefix assignment (PA). and use delegation when the process is between different administrative domains.
> 
>> I also don't see how to separate it from the discussion
>> of autonomic networking that is starting in NMRG, because
>> of the zero-conf requirement.
> 
> possibly. there are a few autonomic related drafts submitted to homenet already. as far as I can see they are about building trusted adjacencies. (which could be a prerequisite for prefix assignment).
> 
> cheers,
> Ole

From marka@isc.org  Thu Jan 30 15:14:39 2014
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To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <C0F2DB0D-176D-4FDD-BC6A-8249DFDDF6D7@employees.org> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1401301408510.11807@uplift.swm.pp.se> <CAA93jw6eZTenDZh9-wi8+nPBj8hYcXFnqXG6TxTfHR6sr_rNWg@mail.gmail.com> <4874A76A-550E-4E3B-8972-60AA378FD54A@iki.fi> <CAA93jw6WcX2Fgu9FTJi+nDaar4cVe2DzF-eMUwYyT2JMHom-dg@mail.gmail.com>
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Jan 2014 09:30:42 -0800." <CAA93jw6WcX2Fgu9FTJi+nDaar4cVe2DzF-eMUwYyT2JMHom-dg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 10:14:15 +1100
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Cc: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>, "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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In message <CAA93jw6WcX2Fgu9FTJi+nDaar4cVe2DzF-eMUwYyT2JMHom-dg@mail.gmail.com>
, Dave Taht writes:
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi> w=
> rote:
> > On 30.1.2014, at 17.50, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> don't want it in the routing protocol.
> >
> > Why not? You can stick in kitchen sink there! ;-)
> >
> >>>> of routing protocols for that branch. I have assumed there is agreemen=
> t to
> >>>> have a single routing protocol in the home, and not support multiple.
> >> I'm interested only in a routing protocol that works well with wired, wi=
> reless,
> >> and the internet of things.
> >>
> >> I don't think anyone will ever agree to a single routing protocol decisi=
> on
> >> unless the protocol meets those requirements well, and is battle tested
> >> to meet those requirements well. And none do.
> >
> > The definition of 'works' varies by people, so by that definition, I don'=
> t think there is much to see here.
> 
> Much work is required here, and co-ordination with the wgs on internet
> of things would make sense.
> 
> And running code, in upstream versions of the relevant daemons.
> 
> >>> So question if we don't use the routing protocol for prefix assignment,=
>  what
> >>> should go in there? Should we have a new protocol for service discovery?
> >> It is my hope that hybrid-proxy-mdns solves this. Certainly mdns is pret=
> ty
> >> good about picking up dynamically changed
> >
> > hybrid proxy fixes some things ( see https://github.com/sbyx/ohybridproxy=
>  for a minimalist implementation that seems to work, more or less ). Howeve=
> r, it needs quite a bit of configuration on top of that that you can't sque=
> eze in easily; or at least, you wind up with either
> >
> > - configuration coming from some other protocol (like my old OSPF+SD draf=
> t), or
> > - dns-updates + god DNS server + god DNS server replication within your h=
> ome
> >
> > I'm not sure which is worse, but neither sounds very appealing.
> 
> Yep, we need a replacement for dns, that is replicable (uses a dht?),
> robust, and secure. Anyone?
> 
> >> It still seems that being able to distribute and route between /128s is =
> needed,
> >> and nd proxying for folk that are only doing a /64 and have subnets.
> >
> > Lots of nodes still don't do stateful DHCPv6 (and even fewer do AHCP or s=
> omething else); obviously, we could just ignore them and point at RFC6434? =
> Hmm.
> 
> I don't mind pushing people at the standards at all :) I never grokked
> much of the overall emphasis on distributing /64s everywhere though.
> 
> the problem I've long had to deal with is only getting a single /64 at
> best in a routed network (and /60 doesn't help much either).
> 
> ahcp has and has been for 6 years on linux
> 
> apt-get install babeld # pulls in ahcp
> edit /etc/default/ahcpd to add your interfaces and specify -6 only
> edit /etc/ahcp/ahcp-script.sh # to more sanely add servers
> 
> walla. you get /128s.
> 
> dhcpv6 is similar, of course. Presently openwrt is handing out /128s
> for stateful dhcpv6, I don't know if that's intended.
> 
> >> 1) in the multi-homing case you want requests from a local dns server
> >> to be sourced
> >>    from the right network to the right ISP-provided forwarder. (think
> >> I have a fix for
> >>    that but it involves abandoning resolv.conf for specific dnsmasq
> >> configuration.
> >
> > Does it really work without host changes? Let's assume you have prefixes =
> A and B from ISPs ISP_A,
> 
> yes.
> 
> >ISP_B. You have host that has addresses in A and B. It chooses to point it=
> 's upstream resolver at your dnsmasq on your router. How do you figure whic=
> h upstream DNS server to use? A and B source address won't help in this cas=
> e, as DNS resolution is done with 'point SOMETHING at configured DNS server=
> ' in most current hosts.
> 
> in-home hosts can point to any local dns server over any ip address
> type, be it ipv4, link local, ula, or some set of ISP provided
> address.
> 
> on the gateway the local dns server needs to distinguish from what ISP
> was derived the relevant source
> addresses, so it can issue queries to an upstream dns server, which
> involves abandoning leveraging
> /etc/resolv.conf.auto, for a dnsmasq specific configuration:
> 
> cat /tmp/dnsmasq.d/comcast.conf
> server=3D2001:558:feed::1@260x:y:z::1
> server=3D2001:558:feed::2@260x:y:z::1
> 
> Bind also can do the same, but the syntax is more involved.

	forwarders {
		2001:558:feed::1; 2001:6000:feed::2;
	};

	server 2001:558:feed::1 {
		query-source 2001:558:xxxx::2;
	};

	server 2001:6000:feed::2 {
		query-source 2001:6000:xxxx::2;
	};

The server clauses could be removed if there was a way for the ISP
to say which prefixes it has so that the stack's source address
selection rules picked the prefix from that ISP for those addresses.

Presumably the ISP's recursive servers arn't open to the world.

> The in-home dns server also needs to ensure it only responds to
> queries from internal hosts (so as not to become a open resolver),
> presently that's done by ignoring queries from the external
> interface(s). It would
> be nice if queries from external hosts for the AAAA records for your
> in-home domain worked. Are there
> any dynamic dns providers working with AAAAs yet?
> 
> incidentally one thing that could be used specifically for dns is to
> give the server it's own ipv6
> address to play in, thus freeing up all ports to protect against
> things like the kaminsky attack, and
> better being able to correctly handle queries from the universe.
> Another option is run dns on
> a separate box, which conceptually hands the address awareness problem
> back to some sort of protocol.
> 
> (Personally I see a lot of homes not running a local dns server and
> relying on mdns internally instead.)
> 
> I was very happy to start routing all my dns traffic over ipv6
> recently, in saving udp4 ports for
> other uses. The impact of running a local dnsrbl can drop
> significantly if NXDOMAIN is honored
> by the upstream server. I merely turned off getting ISP nameservers
> via dhcp4 and get them from
> dhcpv6 on the gateway.
> 
> I have proposed syntax for dealing with reverse lookups to the
> dnsmasq-discuss list.
> 
> >
> >> 4) the vast increase in ipv6 related multicast led me to finally
> >> violate the 802.11 standard and
> >>    fix wireless multicast rates to 9mbits. So far that hasn't broken any=
> thing.
> >
> > Oho. Do you have concrete numbers on how much multicast you're seeing in =
> and what sort of topology? Just base IPv6 stuff or e.g. mdns?
> 
> What I have at the moment is indirectly observable effects
> 
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > -Markus
> 
> 
> 
> -- =
> 
> Dave T=E4ht
> 
> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.=
> html
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

From dave.taht@gmail.com  Thu Jan 30 15:59:46 2014
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In-Reply-To: <20140130231415.F3AEFE14187@rock.dv.isc.org>
References: <C0F2DB0D-176D-4FDD-BC6A-8249DFDDF6D7@employees.org> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1401301408510.11807@uplift.swm.pp.se> <CAA93jw6eZTenDZh9-wi8+nPBj8hYcXFnqXG6TxTfHR6sr_rNWg@mail.gmail.com> <4874A76A-550E-4E3B-8972-60AA378FD54A@iki.fi> <CAA93jw6WcX2Fgu9FTJi+nDaar4cVe2DzF-eMUwYyT2JMHom-dg@mail.gmail.com> <20140130231415.F3AEFE14187@rock.dv.isc.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 18:59:40 -0500
Message-ID: <CAA93jw5JvUpzVnam1ONodmBhzBpV7RCysaWYVjm71qrvdXBcig@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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Cc: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>, "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>
> In message <CAA93jw6WcX2Fgu9FTJi+nDaar4cVe2DzF-eMUwYyT2JMHom-dg@mail.gmai=
l.com>
> , Dave Taht writes:
>> On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi=
> w=3D
>> rote:
>> > On 30.1.2014, at 17.50, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> don't want it in the routing protocol.
>> >
>> > Why not? You can stick in kitchen sink there! ;-)
>> >
>> >>>> of routing protocols for that branch. I have assumed there is agree=
men=3D
>> t to
>> >>>> have a single routing protocol in the home, and not support multipl=
e.
>> >> I'm interested only in a routing protocol that works well with wired,=
 wi=3D
>> reless,
>> >> and the internet of things.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think anyone will ever agree to a single routing protocol dec=
isi=3D
>> on
>> >> unless the protocol meets those requirements well, and is battle test=
ed
>> >> to meet those requirements well. And none do.
>> >
>> > The definition of 'works' varies by people, so by that definition, I d=
on'=3D
>> t think there is much to see here.
>>
>> Much work is required here, and co-ordination with the wgs on internet
>> of things would make sense.
>>
>> And running code, in upstream versions of the relevant daemons.
>>
>> >>> So question if we don't use the routing protocol for prefix assignme=
nt,=3D
>>  what
>> >>> should go in there? Should we have a new protocol for service discov=
ery?
>> >> It is my hope that hybrid-proxy-mdns solves this. Certainly mdns is p=
ret=3D
>> ty
>> >> good about picking up dynamically changed
>> >
>> > hybrid proxy fixes some things ( see https://github.com/sbyx/ohybridpr=
oxy=3D
>>  for a minimalist implementation that seems to work, more or less ). How=
eve=3D
>> r, it needs quite a bit of configuration on top of that that you can't s=
que=3D
>> eze in easily; or at least, you wind up with either
>> >
>> > - configuration coming from some other protocol (like my old OSPF+SD d=
raf=3D
>> t), or
>> > - dns-updates + god DNS server + god DNS server replication within you=
r h=3D
>> ome
>> >
>> > I'm not sure which is worse, but neither sounds very appealing.
>>
>> Yep, we need a replacement for dns, that is replicable (uses a dht?),
>> robust, and secure. Anyone?
>>
>> >> It still seems that being able to distribute and route between /128s =
is =3D
>> needed,
>> >> and nd proxying for folk that are only doing a /64 and have subnets.
>> >
>> > Lots of nodes still don't do stateful DHCPv6 (and even fewer do AHCP o=
r s=3D
>> omething else); obviously, we could just ignore them and point at RFC643=
4? =3D
>> Hmm.
>>
>> I don't mind pushing people at the standards at all :) I never grokked
>> much of the overall emphasis on distributing /64s everywhere though.
>>
>> the problem I've long had to deal with is only getting a single /64 at
>> best in a routed network (and /60 doesn't help much either).
>>
>> ahcp has and has been for 6 years on linux
>>
>> apt-get install babeld # pulls in ahcp
>> edit /etc/default/ahcpd to add your interfaces and specify -6 only
>> edit /etc/ahcp/ahcp-script.sh # to more sanely add servers
>>
>> walla. you get /128s.
>>
>> dhcpv6 is similar, of course. Presently openwrt is handing out /128s
>> for stateful dhcpv6, I don't know if that's intended.
>>
>> >> 1) in the multi-homing case you want requests from a local dns server
>> >> to be sourced
>> >>    from the right network to the right ISP-provided forwarder. (think
>> >> I have a fix for
>> >>    that but it involves abandoning resolv.conf for specific dnsmasq
>> >> configuration.
>> >
>> > Does it really work without host changes? Let's assume you have prefix=
es =3D
>> A and B from ISPs ISP_A,
>>
>> yes.
>>
>> >ISP_B. You have host that has addresses in A and B. It chooses to point=
 it=3D
>> 's upstream resolver at your dnsmasq on your router. How do you figure w=
hic=3D
>> h upstream DNS server to use? A and B source address won't help in this =
cas=3D
>> e, as DNS resolution is done with 'point SOMETHING at configured DNS ser=
ver=3D
>> ' in most current hosts.
>>
>> in-home hosts can point to any local dns server over any ip address
>> type, be it ipv4, link local, ula, or some set of ISP provided
>> address.
>>
>> on the gateway the local dns server needs to distinguish from what ISP
>> was derived the relevant source
>> addresses, so it can issue queries to an upstream dns server, which
>> involves abandoning leveraging
>> /etc/resolv.conf.auto, for a dnsmasq specific configuration:
>>
>> cat /tmp/dnsmasq.d/comcast.conf
>> server=3D3D2001:558:feed::1@260x:y:z::1
>> server=3D3D2001:558:feed::2@260x:y:z::1
>>
>> Bind also can do the same, but the syntax is more involved.
>
>         forwarders {
>                 2001:558:feed::1; 2001:6000:feed::2;
>         };
>
>         server 2001:558:feed::1 {
>                 query-source 2001:558:xxxx::2;
>         };
>
>         server 2001:6000:feed::2 {
>                 query-source 2001:6000:xxxx::2;
>         };

excellent.

> The server clauses could be removed if there was a way for the ISP
> to say which prefixes it has so that the stack's source address
> selection rules picked the prefix from that ISP for those addresses.

How about reverse lookups?

> Presumably the ISP's recursive servers arn't open to the world.
>
>> The in-home dns server also needs to ensure it only responds to
>> queries from internal hosts (so as not to become a open resolver),
>> presently that's done by ignoring queries from the external
>> interface(s). It would
>> be nice if queries from external hosts for the AAAA records for your
>> in-home domain worked. Are there
>> any dynamic dns providers working with AAAAs yet?
>>
>> incidentally one thing that could be used specifically for dns is to
>> give the server it's own ipv6
>> address to play in, thus freeing up all ports to protect against
>> things like the kaminsky attack, and
>> better being able to correctly handle queries from the universe.
>> Another option is run dns on
>> a separate box, which conceptually hands the address awareness problem
>> back to some sort of protocol.
>>
>> (Personally I see a lot of homes not running a local dns server and
>> relying on mdns internally instead.)
>>
>> I was very happy to start routing all my dns traffic over ipv6
>> recently, in saving udp4 ports for
>> other uses. The impact of running a local dnsrbl can drop
>> significantly if NXDOMAIN is honored
>> by the upstream server. I merely turned off getting ISP nameservers
>> via dhcp4 and get them from
>> dhcpv6 on the gateway.
>>
>> I have proposed syntax for dealing with reverse lookups to the
>> dnsmasq-discuss list.
>>
>> >
>> >> 4) the vast increase in ipv6 related multicast led me to finally
>> >> violate the 802.11 standard and
>> >>    fix wireless multicast rates to 9mbits. So far that hasn't broken =
any=3D
>> thing.
>> >
>> > Oho. Do you have concrete numbers on how much multicast you're seeing =
in =3D
>> and what sort of topology? Just base IPv6 stuff or e.g. mdns?
>>
>> What I have at the moment is indirectly observable effects
>>
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > -Markus
>>
>>
>>
>> -- =3D
>>
>> Dave T=3DE4ht
>>
>> Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscri=
be.=3D
>> html
>> _______________________________________________
>> homenet mailing list
>> homenet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
> --
> Mark Andrews, ISC
> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org



--=20
Dave T=E4ht

Fixing bufferbloat with cerowrt: http://www.teklibre.com/cerowrt/subscribe.=
html

From swmike@swm.pp.se  Fri Jan 31 00:37:23 2014
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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Cc: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:

> If the routing protocol and the prefix distribution protocol are 
> separate, then they can end up with different ideas on what prefix is on 
> a given link. That will lead to blackholing.

I don't agree.

I think a valid approach is to have a separate protocol set the address on 
an interface which is then picked up by the routing protocol and 
redistributed just like if it was manually configured.

Routing protocol deamons normally don't set interface IP addresses, they 
carry de-facto information they get from other places and the only thing 
they update is the RIB/FIB in the machine.

So to continue this, even carrying service discovery information leads to 
new information flow in that the routing protocol now needs to update a 
service discovery "Information Base". At least this is less intrusive than 
having it set interface IP addresses.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

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From: Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl>
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+1

I can see reasons for having shared sub-layer for routing protocol and =
prefix distribution protocol. As example, in MANET we have such already: =
RFC 5444 and 5498. If we define a set of TLVs for border router =
information and prefix distribution, it can run on whatever routing =
protocol. Don't forget BGP.

For Homenet plug&play, I don't suggest to let configure grandma her =
favorite IGP ;)

Teco


Op 31 jan. 2014, om 09:37 heeft Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> =
het volgende geschreven:

> On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
>=20
>> If the routing protocol and the prefix distribution protocol are =
separate, then they can end up with different ideas on what prefix is on =
a given link. That will lead to blackholing.
>=20
> I don't agree.
>=20
> I think a valid approach is to have a separate protocol set the =
address on an interface which is then picked up by the routing protocol =
and redistributed just like if it was manually configured.
>=20
> Routing protocol deamons normally don't set interface IP addresses, =
they carry de-facto information they get from other places and the only =
thing they update is the RIB/FIB in the machine.
>=20
> So to continue this, even carrying service discovery information leads =
to new information flow in that the routing protocol now needs to update =
a service discovery "Information Base". At least this is less intrusive =
than having it set interface IP addresses.
>=20
> --=20
> Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Teco,

> I can see reasons for having shared sub-layer for routing protocol and =
prefix distribution protocol. As example, in MANET we have such already: =
RFC 5444 and 5498. If we define a set of TLVs for border router =
information and prefix distribution, it can run on whatever routing =
protocol. Don't forget BGP.
>=20
> For Homenet plug&play, I don't suggest to let configure grandma her =
favorite IGP ;)

doesn't that mean we have to pick one?

cheers,
Ole


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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Mikael,

> So to continue this, even carrying service discovery information leads =
to new information flow in that the routing protocol now needs to update =
a service discovery "Information Base". At least this is less intrusive =
than having it set interface IP addresses.

there is another choice to make here.
either the homenet 'control' protocol floods service discovery records, =
or it is used only to boot strap an  independent service discovery =
mechanism.

the hybrid mDNS proxy is an implementation using the latter approach.

SD has turned out to be a lot harder to solve than at least I thought it =
would be.

cheers,
Ole

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From: Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>
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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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On 31.1.2014, at 11.16, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:
>> So to continue this, even carrying service discovery information =
leads to new information flow in that the routing protocol now needs to =
update a service discovery "Information Base". At least this is less =
intrusive than having it set interface IP addresses.
>=20
> there is another choice to make here.
> either the homenet 'control' protocol floods service discovery =
records, or it is used only to boot strap an  independent service =
discovery mechanism.
>=20
> the hybrid mDNS proxy is an implementation using the latter approach.
>=20
> SD has turned out to be a lot harder to solve than at least I thought =
it would be.

SD would be much more trivial to solve if we allowed host changes, or at =
least would write about desired features there. E.g. no mDNS, just use =
DNS-SD[1] or something equally clever, and then you would have really =
consistent database of active services across the network that routers =
could share, or could have god DNS server, or something else (dtath=92s =
DHT perhaps).

3.1.2 doesn=92t sound very promising on that front (or the hundreds of =
millions of fruity logo compatible devices that mostly do mDNS and =
consider that all SD they ever need; then again, wonder how many of them =
do IPv6, or more specifically, non-linklocal IPv6).

Cheers,

-Markus

[1] with insecure dns-update (RFC2136) and allowing only updating =
records are related pertain to your IP{v4,v6} address and some sort of =
expiration logic based on your L2 presence it might work reasonably =
well?



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From: Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl>
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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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Op 31 jan. 2014, om 09:56 heeft Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> het =
volgende geschreven:

> Teco,
>=20
>> I can see reasons for having shared sub-layer for routing protocol =
and prefix distribution protocol. As example, in MANET we have such =
already: RFC 5444 and 5498. If we define a set of TLVs for border router =
information and prefix distribution, it can run on whatever routing =
protocol. Don't forget BGP.
>>=20
>> For Homenet plug&play, I don't suggest to let configure grandma her =
favorite IGP ;)
>=20
> doesn't that mean we have to pick one?

At least one, for Homenet. Could be OSPF for high speed links, RPL for =
LLN, or OLSRv2 for mix of wireless and wired links including ad hoc =
radio links.

There is something common on prefix distribution in Homenet, small =
office/home office networks, branch office networks, ad hoc networks and =
even in enterprise / campus networks. The prefix distribution protocol =
could be a single protocol. We better not try to converge to a single =
routing protocol.

Teco

>=20
> cheers,
> Ole
>=20


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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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>>> I can see reasons for having shared sub-layer for routing protocol =
and prefix distribution protocol. As example, in MANET we have such =
already: RFC 5444 and 5498. If we define a set of TLVs for border router =
information and prefix distribution, it can run on whatever routing =
protocol. Don't forget BGP.
>>>=20
>>> For Homenet plug&play, I don't suggest to let configure grandma her =
favorite IGP ;)
>>=20
>> doesn't that mean we have to pick one?
>=20
> At least one, for Homenet. Could be OSPF for high speed links, RPL for =
LLN, or OLSRv2 for mix of wireless and wired links including ad hoc =
radio links.
>=20
> There is something common on prefix distribution in Homenet, small =
office/home office networks, branch office networks, ad hoc networks and =
even in enterprise / campus networks. The prefix distribution protocol =
could be a single protocol. We better not try to converge to a single =
routing protocol.

how do you do a self-organizing / zero-conf network without making a =
choice?

cheers,
Ole

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From brian@innovationslab.net  Fri Jan 31 05:53:24 2014
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Speaking as an interested observer only...

On 1/31/14 3:57 AM, Teco Boot wrote:
> +1
>=20
> I can see reasons for having shared sub-layer for routing protocol
> and prefix distribution protocol. As example, in MANET we have such
> already: RFC 5444 and 5498. If we define a set of TLVs for border
> router information and prefix distribution, it can run on whatever
> routing protocol. Don't forget BGP.
>=20

Yes, let's not forget BGP (but probably not for the reasons Teco
mentions it).  Many folks have expressed regrets over the years with the
amount of extra baggage that has been added to BGP.  Most of the time,
the argument for adding this non-routing stuff is that the distribution
model is the same.  The results have been less than stellar, IMO.

However, we have to consider that the rate of information update for
reachability is not the same as the update rate for prefix delegation.
Will the transport of that extra information lead to performance issues,
incompatibility with other devices speaking the same protocol, or
concerns over the security model needed for these two different functions=
?

Just food for thought.

Regards,
Brian


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--=-=-=


Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl> wrote:
    >>> I can see reasons for having shared sub-layer for routing protocol and prefix distribution protocol. As example, in MANET we have such already: RFC 5444 and 5498. If we define a set of TLVs for border router information and prefix distribution, it can run on whatever routing protocol. Don't forget BGP.
    >>>
    >>> For Homenet plug&play, I don't suggest to let configure grandma her favorite IGP ;)
    >>
    >> doesn't that mean we have to pick one?

    > At least one, for Homenet. Could be OSPF for high speed links, RPL for
    > LLN, or OLSRv2 for mix of wireless and wired links including ad hoc
    > radio links.

Lest people worry about who is going to configure all of this,  I want to
point out that actually each of these protocols run in networks different
security profiles.

That is, the set of links running OSPF in Homenet are mostly equivalent
security/trust-wise (taking into account that Fred and his wife will have
tweaked things to live with their seperate corporate policies).

The links running RPL are part of the Home *Automation* Network, and
depending upon who is doing things, may be less or more trusted than the OSPF
parts (probably, also depending upon your point of view).  There will be
routers/firewalls that speak Homenet/OSPF on one side and RPL on the other.

Ditto for the OLSRv2/AODV/Babel adhoc running links: they are essentially
alternative "uplinks", which from the Homenet point of view are weird
wall-free walled gardens. (Hanging gardens?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_Gardens_of_Babylon note tower of babeld
in the background)

====

I've asked that we come to some decision about how we are going to make the
protocol decision.  It's been dragging on for over a year now.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works




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From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Fri Jan 31 09:09:01 2014
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Le 30/01/2014 22:13, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit :
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 2:48 AM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org
> <mailto:otroan@employees.org>> wrote:
>
>     We need to decide, if we want prefix assignment and distribution of
>     other configuration information integrated in a routing protocol.
>
>
> I think the two should be in the same protocol, because routing and
> addressing are tightly coupled. Fundamentally, there is no point in
> configuring an address on a host if the homenet doesn't have
> reachability to it - because you can't use that address to talk to
> anyone else in the homenet.

(just a little point here, because I am encouraged by the beginning of 
the paragraph; yes, you can use a topologically incorrect address as src 
in outgoing packets, there are video stream applications for that; they 
  work especially in the small setting of home, where there's no ingress 
filtering).

> If the routing protocol and the prefix distribution protocol are
> separate, then they can end up with different ideas on what prefix is on
> a given link. That will lead to blackholing.

I tend to agree, modulo exception above.  And provided I udnerstand the 
word 'blackholing'...

Alex

>
>
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>



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Le 31/01/2014 09:56, Ole Troan a écrit :
> Teco,
>
>> I can see reasons for having shared sub-layer for routing protocol and prefix distribution protocol. As example, in MANET we have such already: RFC 5444 and 5498. If we define a set of TLVs for border router information and prefix distribution, it can run on whatever routing protocol. Don't forget BGP.
>>
>> For Homenet plug&play, I don't suggest to let configure grandma her favorite IGP ;)
>
> doesn't that mean we have to pick one?

Yes, and here's my preferred: pick DHCP, it satisfies all requirements; 
where it doesnt update it.  Then plug it into OSPF, then onto BGP.

Alex

>
> cheers,
> Ole
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>



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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 12:37 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>wrote:

> If the routing protocol and the prefix distribution protocol are separate,
>> then they can end up with different ideas on what prefix is on a given
>> link. That will lead to blackholing.
>>
>
> I don't agree.
>
> I think a valid approach is to have a separate protocol set the address on
> an interface which is then picked up by the routing protocol and
> redistributed just like if it was manually configured.
>

And what happens when the routing protocol finds out that, even though the
delegation protocol thinks everything is OK and addresses were delegated
just fine, the network is now partitioned? How do you reassign addresses in
that case?

How do you tell the prefix assignment protocol that it needs to resolve
addressing conflicts when you merge two networks that have the same
prefixes? You have to tightly couple prefix assignment and routing again.
In which case it's just better to have the same protocol.

Routing protocol deamons normally don't set interface IP addresses, they
> carry de-facto information they get from other places and the only thing
> they update is the RIB/FIB in the machine.
>

Yes, but in that case the responsibility for getting IP addresses correct
and non-overlapping falls on the operator. A self-organizing network
doesn't have an operator.


> So to continue this, even carrying service discovery information leads to
> new information flow in that the routing protocol now needs to update a
> service discovery "Information Base".


That's different. The assumption at the service layer is that below it, the
network will figure out routing and addressing, and packets either get to
the destination or they don't. What you're talking about is to have two
strongly coupled things in the networking layer (addressing and routing) be
run by separate protocols.

--089e013a1f16e11ca804f1474a9d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On F=
ri, Jan 31, 2014 at 12:37 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se" target=3D"_blank">swmike@swm.pp.se</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">
If the routing protocol and the prefix distribution protocol are separate, =
then they can end up with different ideas on what prefix is on a given link=
. That will lead to blackholing.<br>

</blockquote>
<br></div>
I don&#39;t agree.<br>
<br>
I think a valid approach is to have a separate protocol set the address on =
an interface which is then picked up by the routing protocol and redistribu=
ted just like if it was manually configured.<br></blockquote><div><br>

</div><div>And what happens when the routing protocol finds out that, even =
though the delegation protocol thinks everything is OK and addresses were d=
elegated just fine, the network is now partitioned? How do you reassign add=
resses in that case?</div>

<div><br></div><div>How do you tell the prefix assignment protocol that it =
needs to resolve addressing conflicts when you merge two networks that have=
 the same prefixes? You have to tightly couple prefix assignment and routin=
g again. In which case it&#39;s just better to have the same protocol.</div=
>

<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Routing protocol deamons norm=
ally don&#39;t set interface IP addresses, they carry de-facto information =
they get from other places and the only thing they update is the RIB/FIB in=
 the machine.<br>

</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, but in that case the responsibility f=
or getting IP addresses correct and non-overlapping falls on the operator. =
A self-organizing network doesn&#39;t have an operator.</div><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">So to continue this, even carrying service d=
iscovery information leads to new information flow in that the routing prot=
ocol now needs to update a service discovery &quot;Information Base&quot;.<=
/blockquote>

<div><br>That&#39;s different. The assumption at the service layer is that =
below it, the network will figure out routing and addressing, and packets e=
ither get to the destination or they don&#39;t. What you&#39;re talking abo=
ut is to have two strongly coupled things in the networking layer (addressi=
ng and routing) be run by separate protocols.</div>

</div></div></div>

--089e013a1f16e11ca804f1474a9d--

From teco@inf-net.nl  Fri Jan 31 10:26:44 2014
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To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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Op 31 jan. 2014, om 12:36 heeft Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> het =
volgende geschreven:

>>>> I can see reasons for having shared sub-layer for routing protocol =
and prefix distribution protocol. As example, in MANET we have such =
already: RFC 5444 and 5498. If we define a set of TLVs for border router =
information and prefix distribution, it can run on whatever routing =
protocol. Don't forget BGP.
>>>>=20
>>>> For Homenet plug&play, I don't suggest to let configure grandma her =
favorite IGP ;)
>>>=20
>>> doesn't that mean we have to pick one?
>>=20
>> At least one, for Homenet. Could be OSPF for high speed links, RPL =
for LLN, or OLSRv2 for mix of wireless and wired links including ad hoc =
radio links.
>>=20
>> There is something common on prefix distribution in Homenet, small =
office/home office networks, branch office networks, ad hoc networks and =
even in enterprise / campus networks. The prefix distribution protocol =
could be a single protocol. We better not try to converge to a single =
routing protocol.
>=20
> how do you do a self-organizing / zero-conf network without making a =
choice?

I ment: We better not try to converge to a single routing protocol for =
Homenet, small office/home office networks, branch office networks, ad =
hoc networks and enterprise / campus networks.

If distributed info semantics for prefix distribution are well defined, =
it doesn't matter how it is delivered. Single encoding method helps, it =
is not absolutely required. If a box faces two routing domains, it =
redistributes. With DV style of flooding, this is simple and =
straightforward.

I still believe hosts shall be informed of information on border routers =
/ exit links and corresponding prefix information. And I prefer hosts =
shall not have a need to snoop routing packets for that. Using a NDP =
extension is a no-brainer for me.

So yes, Homenet shall select a single routing protocol for higher data =
rate links (next to LLN routing, that one is separate).
We can check how to run a prefix distribution protocol on top of =
routing, or use another carrier (e.g. NDP).

My opinion: put the prefix distribution protocol on top of NDP, so all =
nodes are informed.

Teco


>=20
> cheers,
> Ole


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Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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Op 31 jan. 2014, om 18:13 heeft Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> het =
volgende geschreven:

> On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 12:37 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson =
<swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
>>> If the routing protocol and the prefix distribution protocol are =
separate, then they can end up with different ideas on what prefix is on =
a given link. That will lead to blackholing.
>>=20
>> I don't agree.
>>=20
>> I think a valid approach is to have a separate protocol set the =
address on an interface which is then picked up by the routing protocol =
and redistributed just like if it was manually configured.
>=20
> And what happens when the routing protocol finds out that, even though =
the delegation protocol thinks everything is OK and addresses were =
delegated just fine, the network is now partitioned? How do you reassign =
addresses in that case?

I don't see a problem. If the two partitions have border router(s), =
addresses for the prefixes for the connected border router keeps =
functioning. Prefixes for the disconnected border router(s) should be =
deprecated. Is is an internal function on the router, based on topology =
information and configured prefixes, provided by routing protocol and =
prefix distribution protocol.

> How do you tell the prefix assignment protocol that it needs to =
resolve addressing conflicts when you merge two networks that have the =
same prefixes?

First we have to verify if this can happen. My favorite is using DHCP-PD =
with server on CPE (edge) box (and elected box for ULA). This box should =
circumvent your scenario.

> You have to tightly couple prefix assignment and routing again. In =
which case it's just better to have the same protocol.

I can't follow your arguments.

>=20
>> Routing protocol deamons normally don't set interface IP addresses, =
they carry de-facto information they get from other places and the only =
thing they update is the RIB/FIB in the machine.
>>=20
> Yes, but in that case the responsibility for getting IP addresses =
correct and non-overlapping falls on the operator. A self-organizing =
network doesn't have an operator.

I can't see how strongly coupled routing protocol and prefix =
distribution protocol can help.

> =20
>> So to continue this, even carrying service discovery information =
leads to new information flow in that the routing protocol now needs to =
update a service discovery "Information Base".
>=20
> That's different. The assumption at the service layer is that below =
it, the network will figure out routing and addressing, and packets =
either get to the destination or they don't. What you're talking about =
is to have two strongly coupled things in the networking layer =
(addressing and routing) be run by separate protocols.

Yes, they are (strongly) related. That doesn't mean that they shall be =
processed by same protocol. Maybe better have two simple protocols, with =
minimal interaction. Both protocols will have their own life cycle.

Teco



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To: Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl>
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Cc: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl> wrote:

> > And what happens when the routing protocol finds out that, even though
> the delegation protocol thinks everything is OK and addresses were
> delegated just fine, the network is now partitioned? How do you reassign
> addresses in that case?
>
> I don't see a problem. If the two partitions have border router(s),
> addresses for the prefixes for the connected border router keeps
> functioning. Prefixes for the disconnected border router(s) should be
> deprecated. Is is an internal function on the router, based on topology
> information and configured prefixes, provided by routing protocol and
> prefix distribution protocol.
>
> > How do you tell the prefix assignment protocol that it needs to resolve
> addressing conflicts when you merge two networks that have the same
> prefixes?
>
> First we have to verify if this can happen. My favorite is using DHCP-PD
> with server on CPE (edge) box (and elected box for ULA). This box should
> circumvent your scenario.


Er, *what*? You are aware that if you have a partition, one of the two
partitions will not be able to reach the DHCP server?

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On F=
ri, Jan 31, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Teco Boot <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:teco@inf-net.nl" target=3D"_blank">teco@inf-net.nl</a>&gt;</span> wrot=
e:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div class=3D"im">&gt; And what happens when the routing protocol finds out=
 that, even though the delegation protocol thinks everything is OK and addr=
esses were delegated just fine, the network is now partitioned? How do you =
reassign addresses in that case?<br>


<br>
</div>I don&#39;t see a problem. If the two partitions have border router(s=
), addresses for the prefixes for the connected border router keeps functio=
ning. Prefixes for the disconnected border router(s) should be deprecated. =
Is is an internal function on the router, based on topology information and=
 configured prefixes, provided by routing protocol and prefix distribution =
protocol.<br>


<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; How do you tell the prefix assignment protocol that it needs to resolv=
e addressing conflicts when you merge two networks that have the same prefi=
xes?<br>
<br>
</div>First we have to verify if this can happen. My favorite is using DHCP=
-PD with server on CPE (edge) box (and elected box for ULA). This box shoul=
d circumvent your scenario.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Er, *what*? You=
 are aware that if you have a partition, one of the two partitions will not=
 be able to reach the DHCP server?</div>

</div></div></div>

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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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To: Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl>
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Cc: "homenet@ietf.org Group" <homenet@ietf.org>, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Subject: Re: [homenet] Homenet protocol decisions
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Teco,

>>> There is something common on prefix distribution in Homenet, small =
office/home office networks, branch office networks, ad hoc networks and =
even in enterprise / campus networks. The prefix distribution protocol =
could be a single protocol. We better not try to converge to a single =
routing protocol.
>>=20
>> how do you do a self-organizing / zero-conf network without making a =
choice?
>=20
> I ment: We better not try to converge to a single routing protocol for =
Homenet, small office/home office networks, branch office networks, ad =
hoc networks and enterprise / campus networks.

OK, but at least we can pick a single routing protocol for the home.

> If distributed info semantics for prefix distribution are well =
defined, it doesn't matter how it is delivered. Single encoding method =
helps, it is not absolutely required. If a box faces two routing =
domains, it redistributes. With DV style of flooding, this is simple and =
straightforward.

right. but we don't have to specify that in this working group, or at =
least not now.

> I still believe hosts shall be informed of information on border =
routers / exit links and corresponding prefix information. And I prefer =
hosts shall not have a need to snoop routing packets for that. Using a =
NDP extension is a no-brainer for me.
>=20
> So yes, Homenet shall select a single routing protocol for higher data =
rate links (next to LLN routing, that one is separate).
> We can check how to run a prefix distribution protocol on top of =
routing, or use another carrier (e.g. NDP).
>=20
> My opinion: put the prefix distribution protocol on top of NDP, so all =
nodes are informed.

what are the arguments for involving hosts in the prefix assignment =
protocol?
as opposed the existing router to hosts protocols (ND/DHCP).

cheers,
Ole

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