From nobody Thu Jun 9 08:17:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AAB712D16F for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 08:17:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xzFCJg7cHViD for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 08:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABDBB12B050 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 08:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u59FHVQq022618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:17:31 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u59FHVvR017247; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:17:31 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8313161F9D; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:17:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id hG_R3lo1ak_e; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:17:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (col75-1-78-194-40-74.fbxo.proxad.net [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C512661FA2; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:17:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:17:28 +0200 Message-ID: <87h9d2tmrb.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: homenet@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:17:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:17:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5759888B.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 5759888B.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5759888B.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5759888B.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5759888B.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5759888B.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: Markus Stenberg Subject: [homenet] RFC 7788 and the IANA registry conflict X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 15:17:36 -0000 Suddenly shncpd stopped parsing name server information. I asked Markus, and he explained that the IANA registry[1] has different values for the DHCPv4_DATA and DHCPv6_DATA TLVs than RFC 7788. Hnetd was following the former, while shncpd was following the former. Grr. I've just fixed shncpd so that it interoperates with hnetd again (by following the IANA registry). But what's to be done longer term? Do we change the IANA registry again, or should somebody publish an erratum to RFC 7788. Thanks, -- Juliusz From nobody Thu Jun 9 08:38:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C5612D5B0 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 08:38:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t7h_iJ_no-rA for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 08:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E27EB12D0DC for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 08:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u59FcAbH002002; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:38:10 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C0661FA6; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:38:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id vW-RvS6SeyVs; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:38:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (col75-1-78-194-40-74.fbxo.proxad.net [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E7B8861FA2; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:38:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:38:08 +0200 Message-ID: <8760titlsv.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: homenet@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:38:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57598D62.004 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57598D62.004 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57598D62.004 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: Markus Stenberg Subject: [homenet] HNCP in tcpdump and wireshark? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 15:38:13 -0000 Dear Markus, dear all, Do you know if anyone is working on HNCP support for tcpdump and wireshark? I'm considering giving it out as a student project this summer, but of course it doesn't make a lot of sense if somebody beats us to it. (I already know about the lua script for Wireshark.) -- Juliusz From nobody Thu Jun 9 09:30:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA10F12D78E for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 09:30:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.822 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.822 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ySOwXB4IT4i3 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 09:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from julia1.inet.fi (mta-out1.inet.fi [62.71.2.230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FB912D769 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 09:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.200.82] (192.194.110.125) by julia1.inet.fi (9.0.002.03-2-gbe5d057) (authenticated as stenma-47) id 56E14E9D05F0BD1C; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:30:37 +0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <8760titlsv.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:30:41 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9AB1D099-9E7D-42BD-B422-0970F837D5B1@iki.fi> References: <8760titlsv.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] HNCP in tcpdump and wireshark? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 16:30:49 -0000 > On 9.6.2016, at 18.38, Juliusz Chroboczek = wrote: >=20 > Dear Markus, dear all, >=20 > Do you know if anyone is working on HNCP support for tcpdump and > wireshark? I'm considering giving it out as a student project this > summer, but of course it doesn't make a lot of sense if somebody beats = us > to it. >=20 > (I already know about the lua script for Wireshark.) Plenty of Wireshark built-in decoders are in lua also, so I guess you = can if you must, but probably just upstreaming the Lua version would be = the thing to do..? Cheers, -Markus= From nobody Thu Jun 9 09:32:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815CD12D880 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 09:32:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m8LsZL5yK5kz for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 09:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.portfast.net (hydrogen.portfast.net [188.246.200.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B89E112D861 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 09:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [46.227.151.81] (port=57338 helo=rays-mbp.local) by hydrogen.portfast.net ([188.246.200.2]:465) with esmtpsa (fixed_plain:ray@bellis.me.uk) (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1bB2sB-0001ha-Ns (Exim 4.72) for homenet@ietf.org (return-path ); Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:31:59 +0100 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <87h9d2tmrb.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Ray Bellis Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:32:02 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87h9d2tmrb.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788 and the IANA registry conflict X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 16:32:11 -0000 On 09/06/2016 16:17, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > I've just fixed shncpd so that it interoperates with hnetd again (by > following the IANA registry). But what's to be done longer term? Do we > change the IANA registry again, or should somebody publish an erratum to > RFC 7788. To clarify for other readers, since it's hard to spot - the IANA registry reflects what was specified in the IANA Considerations of the document, but the diagrams in §10.2.2 and §10.2.3 have the option values the wrong way around. So yes, we should probably publish an erratum, but please leave it with the Chairs and our AD for a short while. Per the errata already raised regarding the unintended de-facto reservation of ".home" for HNCP we're expecting to need to put out a 7788-bis very soon anyway. thanks, Ray From nobody Thu Jun 9 09:39:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9359C12D776 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 09:39:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wMoApL4z7JVi for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 09:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6869112D75A for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 09:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u59Gd1r6003192; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:39:01 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A335D61FA2; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:39:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id 77bY8XFmf2Zm; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:39:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (col75-1-78-194-40-74.fbxo.proxad.net [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5501A61F9D; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:39:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 18:38:59 +0200 Message-ID: <87h9d2s4f0.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <9AB1D099-9E7D-42BD-B422-0970F837D5B1@iki.fi> References: <8760titlsv.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <9AB1D099-9E7D-42BD-B422-0970F837D5B1@iki.fi> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Thu, 09 Jun 2016 18:39:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57599BA5.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57599BA5.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57599BA5.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] HNCP in tcpdump and wireshark? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 16:39:04 -0000 >> Do you know if anyone is working on HNCP support for tcpdump and >> wireshark? I'm considering giving it out as a student project this >> summer, but of course it doesn't make a lot of sense if somebody beats us >> to it. >> >> (I already know about the lua script for Wireshark.) > Plenty of Wireshark built-in decoders are in lua also, so I guess you > can if you must, but probably just upstreaming the Lua version would be > the thing to do..? Do we have your blessing for completing and upstreaming your lua code? -- Juliusz From nobody Thu Jun 9 10:26:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFEC12D8A2 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 10:26:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.822 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.822 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ns4PtL7ENfd6 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 10:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from julia1.inet.fi (mta-out1.inet.fi [62.71.2.230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCEE412D8CF for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 10:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from poro.lan (80.220.86.47) by julia1.inet.fi (9.0.002.03-2-gbe5d057) (authenticated as stenma-47) id 56E14E9D05F12A5D; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 20:25:52 +0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <87h9d2s4f0.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 20:25:57 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <8760titlsv.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <9AB1D099-9E7D-42BD-B422-0970F837D5B1@iki.fi> <87h9d2s4f0.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] HNCP in tcpdump and wireshark? X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:26:03 -0000 On 9.6.2016, at 19.38, Juliusz Chroboczek = wrote: >>> Do you know if anyone is working on HNCP support for tcpdump and >>> wireshark? I'm considering giving it out as a student project this >>> summer, but of course it doesn't make a lot of sense if somebody = beats us >>> to it. >>>=20 >>> (I already know about the lua script for Wireshark.) >> Plenty of Wireshark built-in decoders are in lua also, so I guess you >> can if you must, but probably just upstreaming the Lua version would = be >> the thing to do..? > Do we have your blessing for completing and upstreaming your lua code? Certainly. Currently hnetd (where it resides) is Apache licensed, and = AFAIK that is fine, and if not, earlier version (with very minor = changes) was GPL just like the Wireshark. Only change from GPL->Apache = version was the update to match RFC7788 #s. Cheers, -Markus= From nobody Thu Jun 9 10:35:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65FC12D8F1 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.822 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.822 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FDkYz8gJBGex for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 10:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from julia1.inet.fi (mta-out1.inet.fi [62.71.2.231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3BC912D786 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 10:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from poro.lan (80.220.86.47) by julia1.inet.fi (9.0.002.03-2-gbe5d057) (authenticated as stenma-47) id 56E14E9D05F13D10; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 20:35:14 +0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 20:35:19 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87h9d2tmrb.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> To: Ray Bellis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788 and the IANA registry conflict X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:35:24 -0000 On 9.6.2016, at 19.32, Ray Bellis wrote: > On 09/06/2016 16:17, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> I've just fixed shncpd so that it interoperates with hnetd again (by >> following the IANA registry). But what's to be done longer term? Do = we >> change the IANA registry again, or should somebody publish an erratum = to >> RFC 7788. > To clarify for other readers, since it's hard to spot - the IANA > registry reflects what was specified in the IANA Considerations of the > document, but the diagrams in =A710.2.2 and =A710.2.3 have the option = values > the wrong way around. I failed once today at spotting the difference too (although noticed it = earlier at some point as well). Too much work I guess. > So yes, we should probably publish an erratum, but please leave it = with > the Chairs and our AD for a short while. Per the errata already = raised > regarding the unintended de-facto reservation of ".home" for HNCP = we're > expecting to need to put out a 7788-bis very soon anyway. Is that RFC6something process for getting gTLDs still blocked by ICANN = or whoever who is simultaneously celebrating their 1000th $$$ gTLD? The specification (AFAIK) does not really require all implementations to = agree on the same network-wide default (as it is not omitted from DDZ = TLVs, the sub-zones are fully qualified), but I do not see any other = sensible default than the one we use now. So I am not sure what this = will change in practise. Cheers, -Markus= From nobody Thu Jun 9 10:45:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0484A12D526 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 10:45:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5o4NbkArjVJ4 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 10:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE25212D6A7 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 10:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u59HjhlA032045; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:45:43 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7001361FA2; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:45:43 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id mXHolUXFTx0s; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:45:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (col75-1-78-194-40-74.fbxo.proxad.net [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 11CE461FA1; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:45:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:45:41 +0200 Message-ID: <87fusmqmre.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: References: <87h9d2tmrb.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:45:43 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5759AB47.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5759AB47.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5759AB47.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788 and the IANA registry conflict X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:45:47 -0000 > The specification (AFAIK) does not really require all implementations to > agree on the same network-wide default (as it is not omitted from DDZ > TLVs, the sub-zones are fully qualified), but I do not see any other > sensible default than the one we use now. So I am not sure what this > will change in practise. I can be convinced to change the default in shncpd. Please let ICANN know that I prefer slightly used, non-sequential banknotes. -- Juliusz From nobody Thu Jun 9 12:09:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F25812D907 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:09:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hr-VakPCrqqv for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.portfast.net (hydrogen.portfast.net [188.246.200.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E659312D921 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [46.227.151.81] (port=59225 helo=rays-mbp.local) by hydrogen.portfast.net ([188.246.200.2]:465) with esmtpsa (fixed_plain:ray@bellis.me.uk) (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1bB5KS-00019q-Ip (Exim 4.72) (return-path ); Thu, 09 Jun 2016 20:09:20 +0100 To: Markus Stenberg References: <87h9d2tmrb.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Ray Bellis Message-ID: <88059b68-2880-afb1-15f6-3507cc17d633@bellis.me.uk> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 20:09:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788 and the IANA registry conflict X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:09:29 -0000 On 09/06/2016 18:35, Markus Stenberg wrote: > Is that RFC6something process for getting gTLDs still blocked by > ICANN or whoever who is simultaneously celebrating their 1000th $$$ > gTLD? It's RFC 6761, and the process is suspended (AIUI) by the IESG. The history and politics of that are unclear, but to the best of my knowledge ICANN had nothing to do with it. My recollection of events is that the suspension of the process was related to the attempts to use it to register .gnu and a few others. There was insufficient clarity about what might have made those names "special" and therefore eligible for reservation as RFC 6761 "special use domain names" (with a distinct technical purpose) instead of being just like any other TLD in the global DNS name space that would have to be applied for through the ICANN process. That's also then tied up in the question of whether the trailing label in something that otherwise looks like a domain name is suitable in the general case for being a "protocol switch" signal (c.f. ".local") Personally I still think that ".home" would make a fine choice for HNCP (except for the language bias issue) but if is to be the choice we need to follow due process. Quite how we do that when that process is suspended is the challenge currently facing your chairs and AD. Ray From nobody Thu Jun 9 12:35:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B60C12D948 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:35:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1kCdIDmI8YKJ for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x236.google.com (mail-qt0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D037812D84D for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x236.google.com with SMTP id c34so12768712qte.0 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:35:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=qOC8UXAAQuHO8pH3Ioj426ekTpFs6gBLVz9Qexd8dxg=; b=MYj5BdFZAqVA787ih6dHhHfLIUgNvcobAvuIgb9Lc9fnxHBbK4v/jfJHVRpOSUE1Pw uF0y/IiLeXpAB3138ym212tHaysLr8Lez6urgtN7G6Iu9GZ1ZrffhXXN0X9+AzLnRtyW q6aiObwYj0v+tEZ4e6jwhJSqsizze2c41CsC8QKVfHITdiV3JN/lL9wiAaTRzDeuSVXB uNwscQnI1f6DP/Tst5ViTsiFfNoy/UdSZr2+6v4EHlPHsDlBWeIRdZss4U3L/yH7RRbh RTfQnPPvghLeCZQGdGJFHRO61a5qxLe+xy/8xIUL9LPeAeLEpdbSOXMcl8Tqyv68yLPT eE7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=qOC8UXAAQuHO8pH3Ioj426ekTpFs6gBLVz9Qexd8dxg=; b=kP1eJ4ekFxE5H0Xk5F0IOaqvoceB2sJhYhjL/zZ7SxAMDRBt0M3ebOfHUweS6x6s4O z4xVIkYKRhziGw7SXxzXEgX4bScH9IwKCBeBDVtLCQbw2rabiGC0nSOHFMPxkMQOJRXs le5TopqVZl/s4JiqXM/5Q22avtqMIrQWnqklVOZGLnrns48OdOjhmy3TcdBI1Ln26zdk go8Ab2S37NUaaHFhmax+omHDbAnJfV1KuKdlunjozL/g5FGpQ9iHT0BM8oaaBVeatsm3 RMbYdUJ5qX0BwtEVbmNAcGUctCyew4oMdzlUtOIKslwrxZXuPdHGBx07Pqn5FZ4q2XHq 59ug== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tL8ugoonTqYYAQrqYUz+eWZ5Kika431C2eNHbrejVQ0H+IHnWWXjvTe1yNPnPlC6A== X-Received: by 10.237.52.134 with SMTP id x6mr11881046qtd.27.1465500918903; Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:18f:801:600:389f:1cc9:27c8:669d? ([2601:18f:801:600:389f:1cc9:27c8:669d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n129sm2083608qhc.15.2016.06.09.12.35.17 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_83336484-7822-41F3-B706-029ED816837A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 15:35:16 -0400 Message-Id: <063CCB33-D4C7-48D3-B504-14E0D3FDC8DE@gmail.com> References: <87h9d2tmrb.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> To: Markus Stenberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Ray Bellis Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788 and the IANA registry conflict X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:35:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_83336484-7822-41F3-B706-029ED816837A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > On Jun 9, 2016, at 1:35 PM 6/9/16, Markus Stenberg = wrote: >=20 > On 9.6.2016, at 19.32, Ray Bellis wrote: >> On 09/06/2016 16:17, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >>> I've just fixed shncpd so that it interoperates with hnetd again (by >>> following the IANA registry). But what's to be done longer term? = Do we >>> change the IANA registry again, or should somebody publish an = erratum to >>> RFC 7788. >> To clarify for other readers, since it's hard to spot - the IANA >> registry reflects what was specified in the IANA Considerations of = the >> document, but the diagrams in =A710.2.2 and =A710.2.3 have the option = values >> the wrong way around. >=20 > I failed once today at spotting the difference too (although noticed = it earlier at some point as well). Too much work I guess. >=20 >> So yes, we should probably publish an erratum, but please leave it = with >> the Chairs and our AD for a short while. Per the errata already = raised >> regarding the unintended de-facto reservation of ".home" for HNCP = we're >> expecting to need to put out a 7788-bis very soon anyway. >=20 > Is that RFC6something process for getting gTLDs still blocked by ICANN = or whoever who is simultaneously celebrating their 1000th $$$ gTLD? As Ray mentioned, the RFC 6761 process was suspended after the = publication of RFC 7686 and the designation of .onion as a Special Use = Domain Name, due to the length of the discussion in dnsop and the IETF = as a whole about whether . There is interest in clarifying or extending = the RFC 6761 process to reduce the length of the discussions related to = the designation of other names as Special Use Domain Names. >=20 > The specification (AFAIK) does not really require all implementations = to agree on the same network-wide default (as it is not omitted from DDZ = TLVs, the sub-zones are fully qualified), but I do not see any other = sensible default than the one we use now. So I am not sure what this = will change in practice. What will change is the official standardization of .home as an implicit = Special-Use Domain Name, which has not been put through the RFC 6761 = process. - Ralph >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > -Markus > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_83336484-7822-41F3-B706-029ED816837A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXWcT1AAoJEINeeBNmFjV5ntcP/2KgFdpVfpt1om5cadUePKlS 306PoNdhU9Aw57H5SgaxNwWLFmSItszrHfC5ruQmz3r8jogZGqCFft947R8yD4il 7xF0BWTT8bYiMiSVIG3qK0LBO0c0/OUsqRGMGrXjwYYtoMyfu/9zmDjBuZ29Ol7d ZRIRCcKQkQksNbNoYTmnyfqsKMdYBZGeAFUr12kM8VzeqN9rAKuduxoIKI1dlv/B Tdq0vIk7Ezt9tra5petmw/gigjE+FIg9J6yEOOxnB0rnEL3Ogd9wOdU5i+mpUepa eqwXYxNylw187TNOP+A59KPwI7VQU9FDQZtfYjSR8IkuQp6aXJrXM6sNLne1oILz 86LevD9DOmXIDHAZvkQ01mbLTNmcMXdtqmXfMll+hoIlx/eRKf7Ja+VekqeXkttX NP5CV+2zFAI3pfCK9G7wK/z6P+cVSFgWh+lVA5VXQAMvdDPt5xmRLsKw/zI42K6c /CYZCT7hz6iLNRg2g6W2mVATi2R462apAnIKSDvgCgnhcJHZ7bPmGhwCsx35yoMX ifQZCpG6yAbnytEXFaZaYVHplK5e1pMiclIb1MSql2tTUIH9goHs89kkcGxeG1be xCMlFR8lDHnbR6wdOON+j8G3uj+/fo6+wIIGaT6mbJVrdQHLoTSd/Na32JoTyEiN MMZWKDuBazc1WM7wMzJb =yQN4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_83336484-7822-41F3-B706-029ED816837A-- From nobody Thu Jun 9 12:44:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B84C112D150 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:44:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3DbQjpoScHa1 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x229.google.com (mail-qg0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B88212D11E for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x229.google.com with SMTP id q32so26004613qgq.3 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:44:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=tdfbZkRFleQexoZEo34lMQ008Dskxdok8mei6uSgmyY=; b=WrQwvDAEau3k340l4F4UdcrY+N4W3b1qHhbt3szfCMaufpH7MjQIDMW09sbGrHfLBH UfMCFcRK83IJCbhKf1stRcZipc2qSqJEIc0irUDPk3qhKC/q8nINOlhN7g0yJUwq0ySl MsELN6FYKtEIVlBluu9QzstPLpgirzHZtY5pGlw0CAMrLDfIgKPY4JZj9WIuA04SUy9T a7i89VjmMn8x6xUZN22e/xbGXH3WTccnofL6MggagFXdZgGG4+1RwcV4TOea2CjfWBoS XWBUzJj9rr2E6H/ojc2usMkHZ2iuTjM5qq/RmqT0op1CPSEBQ3p7bv6mN/od1rfL/1z9 EwQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=tdfbZkRFleQexoZEo34lMQ008Dskxdok8mei6uSgmyY=; b=evzYTxPB2MdwAnq+jaczEgxo3uKlzXAYAQltO8a9gW7lu+fT457H4X6QdU7DNy1OYM VyuFdp+89vHRzSprfI2Qip+wCRZy4Tm1tvjgSoeKKZ7ljd2TXVrzmq0lxM7987V4Ymoh p+odYvSIlhAPMrEI7iqGTuOdwJ73Bh/bldm7ZtFLO3hAfdP7iZpPRP657WhVmz5y+z3v lV8D9JiCQiNLPSyQ5KPTD1bPvzcLIa8WSOk1EDOfSBrI2stQPK8ky0ov+T0sufcKO/BI PUopjUcuTLLFkky47t7ZDeIiXjzXRvF2068HOgqiy3X6UDpMQMqrnpWRlwRq/zZhy5rM JQyg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKRW3dS5R7uMN3SJVS/sOAJ+vFdy3hsWGzG6T0YN27Efah3iDjMqc2FDnSUXo59JQ== X-Received: by 10.140.173.194 with SMTP id t185mr11911210qht.95.1465501482078; Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:18f:801:600:389f:1cc9:27c8:669d? ([2601:18f:801:600:389f:1cc9:27c8:669d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z22sm2139005qtz.16.2016.06.09.12.44.41 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_23DB088E-F81F-416E-B6E9-93E7144E7208"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: <87fusmqmre.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 15:44:40 -0400 Message-Id: References: <87h9d2tmrb.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <87fusmqmre.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Markus Stenberg Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788 and the IANA registry conflict X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:44:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_23DB088E-F81F-416E-B6E9-93E7144E7208 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Jun 9, 2016, at 1:45 PM 6/9/16, Juliusz Chroboczek = wrote: >=20 >> The specification (AFAIK) does not really require all implementations = to >> agree on the same network-wide default (as it is not omitted from DDZ >> TLVs, the sub-zones are fully qualified), but I do not see any other >> sensible default than the one we use now. So I am not sure what this >> will change in practise. >=20 > I can be convinced to change the default in shncpd. Please let ICANN = know > that I prefer slightly used, non-sequential banknotes. Regrettably, your response is a little misleading, as ICANN has nothing = to do with this process. RFC 6761 outlines the process, which requires = Standards Action or IESG Approval and an IANA Considerations section = that provides the relevant information to be included in the Special-Use = Names registry. RFC 7788 seems to imply some special use characteristics for .home by = making it the default zone to be "appended to all single labels or = unqualified zones in order to qualify them.", as such generated names = would not be unique nor appear in the global DNS. - Ralph > -- Juliusz >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_23DB088E-F81F-416E-B6E9-93E7144E7208 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXWccoAAoJEINeeBNmFjV5E+QP+wQsx+GGYYy3Y+7+Cvdx/+iE EvQ9QMRgNyPW91QR+Ojm2PxP3+aQqgrMmw2hnYhcYY8iAp2A5eb9c8woUWkQM+e3 ZFG+tkGxQYy60AuMZ/RwVvy3KPm+fkkrh/9fLjN5fOn4eNtnxrG51kjv8L92M6ZY eyeXaKTVg0scp5NOIE67Crm+QUr/YVMFZdIE14i8cyZrV+YLBNcYXHgy5M3qeNwU f2Eipcm+LVhBShxB7Z4WwBDf2Yi2Z3U9iMiS6Nasgx6sjuYX1OmuM5u6jChBWjuT prFKQK7vMsihFy3rq59apfgIxxUxeb6PlVc03Ic+DhZy8WdDtsMN1qwFkiBubW6P qzShqiLmVvTPkdoTeYhYBKfTZRpYT42wL4K6WUG4RBzJHctIZ/Ve4eZ6wUpJGh0T GwyQhPjP34/+2S71Hbiddf1SVmDCauEJjwjuns7b6X162x2tirjXtE09Jf5hs5W2 xhyIffwoYezVC0tuamUQQ3JcP6k82C40poVjBKTS+yb7BdViYEJ6xO+ky8Wfwzpb eincHRkaSIHzf1WPQl2ZoB8EBSFE5iVX6t4sBNeKreE8vXRUhB14Om42cYxsWePe gRhoBgkxHVRMRnGgeiVFvyQvf9wj/F9MvMMgLtx2vWgEmMVxYHfKxLvF9qnnp0Ed bKdXOQn4XJMIRS5ZpnLF =ZlOK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_23DB088E-F81F-416E-B6E9-93E7144E7208-- From nobody Thu Jun 9 12:47:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFA312D991 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:47:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id is6ZVe6iF_9w for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22d.google.com (mail-qk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DFD212D0BC for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id i187so26629553qkd.3 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:47:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=0zxyjcFhdlzdQGs3a33if8vFimSiQvJ/VtO9hN92mEk=; b=F0vkOp2R0YhZ0QFVMvRPOAr5hCxr1F0S4ebNFIWvGt5YhmuthrsbRKk0et0p710f8v Ui3MyE7JxJUzMg6fs2v38RvQMTSd0lziW2l4hC5bLw3huVs2yl4IbbNoyMMpmuaTXb7z fxiY/uqlr4u2TKXYNZ5IpWC6T1VUxXhMu4KRCL3XIIgWKSHJlxzXVGuo0Td+e7kRGp2k ikMHbC8Uz61sqmBZQoixwtT0fKBoyogvyeFb7VhbwxmJC92G9BqcWlruYuURjaBeDcC+ 5T8Pr2hPW1+l7MyCFrCF7QtQjbweD+TLRWioKgcB1ykSXwR/6yoUdsOapCWbdhFCMtpZ 8OTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=0zxyjcFhdlzdQGs3a33if8vFimSiQvJ/VtO9hN92mEk=; b=Chd6kdnrN810ojTpMCcUY+ZO6fxpqaEAp7qYYJiTNPgAHnMiwKohUFdmMYDOwALS+v SGKoDk/UW1N0OBXaxFQjngK5cv+oXvBrSrOWTK63GtA/s0RBfY59BRK7MBYVFfhggad/ kqfT4zcYTNOcrgg0MXyMmYRzEXg9q0egSyiZH0KIA5TWYf87xBY/NV1N9SGrWdRFMN01 0/JKOSKldM47hpS+DTEea2Ze0QRe8qtPWwM7MVTjhzgw/LWRq0FfAT4Wqkpets7n1OVz aV9dExmOHq5UouMu7xzgVwgVXaD2mmso76H8lr9oNhRDLrC/OoH/nx4+N1cxe5Lf9bqK xr1w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLHQlnmte8RJVdFALEX/0zYvWUR53kB14H5voPEWKvSS9pGiJzuZprb7vSLb5x6TQ== X-Received: by 10.55.189.131 with SMTP id n125mr10513982qkf.194.1465501644105; Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:18f:801:600:389f:1cc9:27c8:669d? ([2601:18f:801:600:389f:1cc9:27c8:669d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b189sm2107507qkf.10.2016.06.09.12.47.23 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_58A534D7-8A3F-49E1-A943-9FEE367FFED4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: <88059b68-2880-afb1-15f6-3507cc17d633@bellis.me.uk> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 15:47:22 -0400 Message-Id: References: <87h9d2tmrb.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <88059b68-2880-afb1-15f6-3507cc17d633@bellis.me.uk> To: Ray Bellis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Markus Stenberg Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788 and the IANA registry conflict X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:47:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_58A534D7-8A3F-49E1-A943-9FEE367FFED4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Jun 9, 2016, at 3:09 PM 6/9/16, Ray Bellis = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 09/06/2016 18:35, Markus Stenberg wrote: >=20 >> Is that RFC6something process for getting gTLDs still blocked by >> ICANN or whoever who is simultaneously celebrating their 1000th $$$ >> gTLD? >=20 > It's RFC 6761, and the process is suspended (AIUI) by the IESG. >=20 > The history and politics of that are unclear, but to the best of my > knowledge ICANN had nothing to do with it. >=20 > My recollection of events is that the suspension of the process was > related to the attempts to use it to register .gnu and a few others. >=20 > There was insufficient clarity about what might have made those names > "special" and therefore eligible for reservation as RFC 6761 "special > use domain names" (with a distinct technical purpose) instead of being > just like any other TLD in the global DNS name space that would have = to > be applied for through the ICANN process. >=20 > That's also then tied up in the question of whether the trailing label > in something that otherwise looks like a domain name is suitable in = the > general case for being a "protocol switch" signal (c.f. ".local") >=20 > Personally I still think that ".home" would make a fine choice for = HNCP > (except for the language bias issue) but if is to be the choice we = need > to follow due process. Quite how we do that when that process is > suspended is the challenge currently facing your chairs and AD. I think a good first step would be to decide exactly the desired = behavior for domain names that end in ".home" rather than a DNS zone. I = wasn't able to determine the expectations for ".home" from RFC 7788. - Ralph >=20 > Ray >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_58A534D7-8A3F-49E1-A943-9FEE367FFED4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXWcfKAAoJEINeeBNmFjV5U+4QAMDMhKgR6qIAB+NLl21E3U5c A5dbq040DtckOcYCGUvUVBmmVxVJXf1mEt0fUOTlINFeYj37s18wRbK9mb4MGxwN /p2rzZnhxi0VmiSldtr5z2qowvSpQP2GKjlnQPLYwDsEl4m+5jzTlXzB8y+JXGk+ fUYPvCx50NTfkPttqXV04fkoixsuLMiYKxOuOEpGUXMae1X6yASqFg/6wCfLqWYy 2EYmXWMd0MxYKZolWk+cbfg3vmysFnJiWUt4zi5tNNOZAWBVKC5FwWCV1GKUo02o mpL8/i+LNZvQgTJER6qlv6NOngYe9qOD85044DFQ4Q1I0C6uQijzzZ2uH447je5K Ghxn/x07oSm4nmjPk8IH7LLO8USN9wtdWhjOUkixeHQubQGUVWDv6c768oLYXaJ0 c+8bgpbVxNG399vAouNhnErH8hHBsJhs8QPUizYMzJ6YRKPI/5X/i2ALwY1uJS/8 EwQQOCrZ41tSy5jeCX5OU+JDSfA7yuyKDd00vGYGka6j+GmCAaGRUA5TVwE77SnS nXh9b9sepNx0pkdd9VEHiBjr4ka+pRxCfl84FeL4M8ZyraDue4n2toau2Yx6+zBU /GR7w1VEvN2jM1DjrXm3luxh4sVtT8eWmWZadLmsOuuGrf5DyqZutkEOI+1Rr2VK odzajK/ucANgLR1wMM7E =v8Cv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_58A534D7-8A3F-49E1-A943-9FEE367FFED4-- From nobody Thu Jun 9 12:56:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7787912D696 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:56:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uAZ4gk3Aym7J for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22a.google.com (mail-qg0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 264E512D1D5 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id q32so26172140qgq.3 for ; Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:56:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=2mau1DbXuuB0rza2EOckDOXhUMrq1D//fpKeVuhizpE=; b=DgoooENtmuuc7iMJkTBe19pT13OqS2w7qbLrG8myAY878D8LIbKma21e3cJMpdbnvS 8BQWuLQkuDQMdZj8Xdpuaw7q96/VbHrmJjj9cXeymsVJSSPaDoO0TQVWail/ZktgscBl 48PgaFAvm3OtesixyrFIVCPt0WpiaVx1bd+dcTISwx/GfF+qoHfUH6Lm/NXalOMsSVQy 94nsOVmu1c/FJZjyNCj4SKucugtjIGNzmmJrZ5BITkHllBZHVUiJRQ1o1k6Wp4+L0SvS sebkjrYFW5sFihmWExkvwTjTevVD4+VUviqDH1gZdV91SjFpq2/SO1/+KrHZlNiGWGEJ wogw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=2mau1DbXuuB0rza2EOckDOXhUMrq1D//fpKeVuhizpE=; b=VjHub2iilKp7s2bP5rzGOY2ED2N7dG8Ur9URULIgBE6O/cmHx1mGAdj8Gm2R5Ouxoc rAJObzt8zYVKLS1dVXJcIQGBYRBsnI8HmPjcDK+IY8HKFFtClsH1DG53mKuPGqBmf2ZT FG1WvJiasJBynHtuNjXTCMxLhDux6zyEBSL+/ns8vFIlS72UkEJZJi33EbWX/IX4fLFb TpOjZMzbIomQsq6R1giF6IVcmwpkPUJknbJ8oeZCKOjyvFg0HOyQITUrlBu/ywOgM/gJ eKSp9i0IHyg4OIB59MLaaozDqhpnf8+4/wp6cQAVIMY9TRCujfITHXPAbP1U8SqqB8YP Vr9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tK0dtI1b+X/x5lAjUVafnYZV3FQagYS2qyReoH4lUgxmwV+hNm0x+URbXiLLczQqQ== X-Received: by 10.140.150.209 with SMTP id 200mr12273961qhw.62.1465502177178; Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:181:c003:1360:80e9:619c:da27:33ac? ([2601:181:c003:1360:80e9:619c:da27:33ac]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k6sm2113877qkc.42.2016.06.09.12.56.15 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Suzanne Woolf In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 15:57:11 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9541AA78-E723-4389-BDC2-8524BAFF9E55@gmail.com> References: <87h9d2tmrb.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <87fusmqmre.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> To: Ralph Droms X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Markus Stenberg , Juliusz Chroboczek Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788 and the IANA registry conflict X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:56:20 -0000 On Jun 9, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Ralph Droms wrote: >=20 >> On Jun 9, 2016, at 1:45 PM 6/9/16, Juliusz Chroboczek = wrote: >>=20 >>> The specification (AFAIK) does not really require all = implementations to >>> agree on the same network-wide default (as it is not omitted from = DDZ >>> TLVs, the sub-zones are fully qualified), but I do not see any other >>> sensible default than the one we use now. So I am not sure what this >>> will change in practise. >>=20 >> I can be convinced to change the default in shncpd. Please let ICANN = know >> that I prefer slightly used, non-sequential banknotes. >=20 > Regrettably, your response is a little misleading, as ICANN has = nothing to do with this process. RFC 6761 outlines the process, which = requires Standards Action or IESG Approval and an IANA Considerations = section that provides the relevant information to be included in the = Special-Use Names registry. This is true, and I further suggest reviewing = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-adpkja-dnsop-special-names-problem/= and https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tldr-sutld-ps/ for two = different attempts to describe the challenges arising from trying to = apply RFC 6761. DNSOP has been working for a very long time now on a problem statement = for the ways this can go wrong.=20 > RFC 7788 seems to imply some special use characteristics for .home by = making it the default zone to be "appended to all single labels or = unqualified zones in order to qualify them.", as such generated names = would not be unique nor appear in the global DNS. More specifically, it seems to assume those names will not resolve in = the global public DNS, and will not already have a local resolution = context, without providing any reason for that assumption-- such as an = attempt to register such names in the special use names registry, or = describing what the operator is expected to do to avoid possible = collisions caused by existing local use of names ending in .home = (there's widespread evidence of this, documented in the discussion of = why ICANN isn't delegating it in the first place). Suzanne From nobody Thu Jun 9 19:08:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DEF712D68D for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:08:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.414 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.414 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FAKE_REPLY_C=1.486] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MywvmWdiqFWf for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (mx2.yitter.info [IPv6:2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:cfab]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2527212D621 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B39110BA6 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 02:07:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx2.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx2.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1yTWr8su5Rqp for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 02:07:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (c-73-142-157-135.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [73.142.157.135]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5154A109EC for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 02:07:57 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 22:07:55 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20160610020755.GJ620@mx2.yitter.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <063CCB33-D4C7-48D3-B504-14E0D3FDC8DE@gmail.com> <88059b68-2880-afb1-15f6-3507cc17d633@bellis.me.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788 and the IANA registry conflict X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 02:08:01 -0000 Hi, Response to a couple messages at once: On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 08:09:24PM +0100, Ray Bellis wrote: > It's RFC 6761, and the process is suspended (AIUI) by the IESG. […] > Personally I still think that ".home" would make a fine choice for HNCP > (except for the language bias issue) but if is to be the choice we need > to follow due process. On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 03:35:16PM -0400, Ralph Droms wrote: > As Ray mentioned, the RFC 6761 process was suspended after the >publication of RFC 7686 and the designation of .onion as a Special >Use Domain Name, due to the length of the discussion in dnsop and the >IETF as a whole […] > What will change is the official standardization of .home as an > implicit Special-Use Domain Name, which has not been put through the > RFC 6761 process. I just want to make sure that the basic fact doesn't get lost here, because I think some people may be noticing what I think are the wrong things in the above and other messages in this thread. RFC 6761 specifies what you have to do if you're going to carve out part of the Internet's global name space for protocol-specific needs. There are indeed some concerns about how that works, particularly at the top of the global name space (i.e. to create a TLD-like-thing, even if it's never supposed to appear in the DNS). But the real problem here is that RFC 7788 doesn't do any of what is in RFC 6761 _at all_, despite apparently attempting to reserve a name in the namespace. I am one of the people who failed to catch this fault before publication of 7788, and for that I apologise. But let us not misunderstand that this is some sort of ICANN or IESG desire to throw sand in gears. The IANA considerations of RFC 7788 is wrong: it doesn't include the necessary reservation request. That's the bug. I will note, also, that AFAICT the IESG has not issued a blanket policy about 6761 requests. It is worried about how to do duch reservations in the root name space. There is an already-functioning namespace that is fully capable of handling these kinds of requests, and one that is under IAB control: arpa. There is ample evidence that it already works: ipv4only.arpa. Rather than getting twisted 'round a TLD axle, it strikes me that there is a quick and easy path forward, and one that appears impervious to application fees. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Thu Jun 16 10:26:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB83012D67F for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:26:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JwWp6gjF6izB for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:500:60::65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A801512DA40 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 384DA1FCABF for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C8EA16003A for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:26:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF93F160086 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:26:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id N1byzpXmu7Se for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:26:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rays-mbp.local (unknown [46.227.151.81]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6FDF716003A for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:26:04 +0000 (UTC) From: Ray Bellis To: HOMENET Message-ID: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:26:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] RFC 7788-bis X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:26:11 -0000 As was alluded to in my email of 9th June, we have been asked to replace RFC 7788 (HNCP) with an RFC 7788-bis as soon as possible to incorporate the errata raised by the DNSOP chair regarding the unintended apparent reservation of ".home" as the default domain TLV within HNCP. We should also take that opportunity to fix the error in the diagrams for the DHCPv4_DATA and DHCPv6_DATA TLVs where the numbers shown conflict with the IANA registrations for those TLVs. Those two changes will be the only ones made, unless any further errata are made in the meantime. Slightly longer term, and notwithstanding our previously stated desire to wait until Ted Lemon's Naming Architecture was further progressed, we would like to obtain WG consensus on whether ".home" is indeed a suitable default domain for HNCP. In the meantime, implementors are hereby advised that ".home" is potentially subject to change. It should be noted (as pointed out to us by the Chair of the IAB) that the default domain need not be a single-label "pseudo-TLD" - it could be a sub-domain of an existing name in the DNS such as ".arpa". Whichever domain is chosen, we will then instigate a new WG document (or perhaps resurrect draft-cheshire-homenet-dot-home if ".home" is preferred) to follow due process and formally reserve a default domain as a "special use domain name". Ray and Mark From nobody Thu Jun 16 11:48:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EF5412DAA8 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:48:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OOPLD6QX2FbW for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22c.google.com (mail-qk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B6D312D84C for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id a186so62710923qkf.0 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:48:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=TH3W3qh9VZ+uONIIaDum8q4oOfGjtFFt01mqnsvh7Rc=; b=YHYkd1HUO//E4eIREBRiv2lbEFFPtySLqIAlROYpe7aOnAiCf7k/vGdqC+rhgsiEn7 /rBGshS8xDW8vLQznyktpbtgXXOvOQJS+Gq4nY4usXdVmDB3QY3+cYRMBeVZOArDSrun SadT3nwJrB11mn4vaNkhQpOCSHxfWHR6EvqUczbI8JINudok8FtuNOL2w7G8JEiBMBpp TNVKrBNYVjLjTFA6+wKiA5pjfZC2HGkL8loAEo6XVNo0Gf0zSxPYa/6ctXas/ZymP+Y2 BRmnJL6JrAHB4mCy1QMAOKy5tPbpIsjbDjEcRA6MWrFjYiCGrUSsr/xKBN/l8CiquFSW TrEw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=TH3W3qh9VZ+uONIIaDum8q4oOfGjtFFt01mqnsvh7Rc=; b=D29cUyVyMsoEvew+HkERIV5L9XN1Rqy7c6CeMkasj94ePqFru2oDv0WQwcdmFCo/cU eWdPuo/wbkoZqZ02zubCceVy1DxbmBVW+8q9+YZSBwbF2JU5JLSTKPzjNb/ZMrnwN8Pv FH8QFi/3k3HEWd+GWQoqhksErY07i97o+UfcxYco607FMRSnC3x2WFco0jFwIHRY5pa3 iQwjv1vXfq5mDSlvxl37gTSpWkUtVD0C3DBCO7nMrZndX3xCnesdHRgAOD0GV+DXHIHB RasH5NnvTJKYr445BDmT57sdzPVdiIxrJmfZ5TXBVQFjIMNIWzjKuBeN/Y3L+PTZxgAx F4Mg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIp/Y65pU4EABrq4KmLbllLnzYpSToI62eiEgtDVaCZBOhO1dh7Z/t9UP1JAEYh9A== X-Received: by 10.200.55.219 with SMTP id e27mr6946520qtc.93.1466102930387; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.131.118.51] ([173.38.117.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h60sm9630573qtd.28.2016.06.16.11.48.49 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B7887E8B-D24A-4EB4-8A5E-BCFD1A07150E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:48:46 -0400 Message-Id: <39B7D708-1CC3-4AB1-8242-4FEAE5CAA272@gmail.com> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> To: Ray Bellis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788-bis X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:48:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B7887E8B-D24A-4EB4-8A5E-BCFD1A07150E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Jun 16, 2016, at 1:26 PM 6/16/16, Ray Bellis wrote: >=20 > As was alluded to in my email of 9th June, we have been asked to = replace > RFC 7788 (HNCP) with an RFC 7788-bis as soon as possible to = incorporate > the errata raised by the DNSOP chair regarding the unintended apparent > reservation of ".home" as the default domain TLV within HNCP. >=20 > We should also take that opportunity to fix the error in the diagrams > for the DHCPv4_DATA and DHCPv6_DATA TLVs where the numbers shown > conflict with the IANA registrations for those TLVs. >=20 > Those two changes will be the only ones made, unless any further = errata > are made in the meantime. >=20 > Slightly longer term, and notwithstanding our previously stated desire > to wait until Ted Lemon's Naming Architecture was further progressed, = we > would like to obtain WG consensus on whether ".home" is indeed a > suitable default domain for HNCP. In the meantime, implementors are > hereby advised that ".home" is potentially subject to change. In my opinion, it is important for the exact requirements and semantics = for the default domain be defined, perhaps even before the default = domain itself is selected. It's not clear to me whether the domain = carried in the Domain-Name TLV can be a delegated domain or it has to be = a special use domain name for location-relative name resolution like = .local, or if either type of name is OK. - Ralph >=20 > It should be noted (as pointed out to us by the Chair of the IAB) that > the default domain need not be a single-label "pseudo-TLD" - it could = be > a sub-domain of an existing name in the DNS such as ".arpa". >=20 > Whichever domain is chosen, we will then instigate a new WG document = (or > perhaps resurrect draft-cheshire-homenet-dot-home if ".home" is > preferred) to follow due process and formally reserve a default domain > as a "special use domain name". >=20 > Ray and Mark >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_B7887E8B-D24A-4EB4-8A5E-BCFD1A07150E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXYvSQAAoJEINeeBNmFjV5gpgQAKOvPMxFdd0pR6P9WlGdOuZg c6edF3rQbFkjFhJnLLPIkLA/pOA/HGltYLt30TJXbXpKyG04F8I1XETYXtWiB0ZR I6vXkybdkBRMdjY7t/yN3jluj5slJTfHHrh/mvf+laoP1udAHc/clTFYCA+hYe5x 0PpK/J5TjpzHm77+3E7YR58XPB1QMmF1f0ZqvHd6su4dftGUb76TJcmYRmsWcoUL Oj5IGjJP9IGP+wx1z/b73p0EdQrhVX/hj/WqOKKmIOA7vHfhwx87ffK+SiVhg1o8 +TtuYBEInt1Wb9Uyic8BOA2nTi81wRFrsEg/15W/5sxx5tHvXqC91slR4NgP3+lV TQK5Gb/toOqWi2rLVPPJGf+z1oWYQLD8Qcc/wRQigfHwTMIHO+BaVnuk8WuuQi5V TpEg0CdYMXdLnVU1mFLWFdIkjitbDdl2oIeoX3xqahg4oP+kwOpO13FsM7mrc0IS KKYcM3jdZFkuFwc4sEp3wOFv6Td7Nyz4lVvSXJldpD/mE3kpUiR/ijEj5cxxzS5u 0kUOWvoNRLK3NixR3PQZyl94T4kF0v3AqBkcrNo0/6mPaE0okXkF/QjJrA4mNmNt rgwaNZuNygv3rQQovZ861ASn0dAjs1tvZ5IZE6JIMYH2J9I6DrpQLqR4rtxWJN5S 4Lreco+KtPTsVdEQp/8N =mU6N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B7887E8B-D24A-4EB4-8A5E-BCFD1A07150E-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 11:49:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3448F12D58C for ; 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Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from still.local ([50.106.131.108]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 195sm20235107ioe.10.2016.06.16.11.49.34 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:49:34 -0700 (PDT) To: homenet@ietf.org References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <39B7D708-1CC3-4AB1-8242-4FEAE5CAA272@gmail.com> From: Tim Wicinski Message-ID: <6dc0f9f9-db38-28e9-96fc-3f7de4351355@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:49:33 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:49.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/49.0a2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <39B7D708-1CC3-4AB1-8242-4FEAE5CAA272@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788-bis X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:49:37 -0000 On 6/16/16 2:48 PM, Ralph Droms wrote: > >> On Jun 16, 2016, at 1:26 PM 6/16/16, Ray Bellis wrote: >> >> As was alluded to in my email of 9th June, we have been asked to replace >> RFC 7788 (HNCP) with an RFC 7788-bis as soon as possible to incorporate >> the errata raised by the DNSOP chair regarding the unintended apparent >> reservation of ".home" as the default domain TLV within HNCP. >> >> We should also take that opportunity to fix the error in the diagrams >> for the DHCPv4_DATA and DHCPv6_DATA TLVs where the numbers shown >> conflict with the IANA registrations for those TLVs. >> >> Those two changes will be the only ones made, unless any further errata >> are made in the meantime. >> >> Slightly longer term, and notwithstanding our previously stated desire >> to wait until Ted Lemon's Naming Architecture was further progressed, we >> would like to obtain WG consensus on whether ".home" is indeed a >> suitable default domain for HNCP. In the meantime, implementors are >> hereby advised that ".home" is potentially subject to change. > > In my opinion, it is important for the exact requirements and semantics for the default domain be defined, perhaps even before the default domain itself is selected. It's not clear to me whether the domain carried in the Domain-Name TLV can be a delegated domain or it has to be a special use domain name for location-relative name resolution like .local, or if either type of name is OK. > > - Ralph > +1 on this. tim From nobody Thu Jun 16 11:55:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D9FA12DAFA for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:55:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IKm3H2ovNAR0 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.portfast.net (hydrogen.portfast.net [188.246.200.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8789612DAF3 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [46.227.151.81] (port=54217 helo=rays-mbp.local) by hydrogen.portfast.net ([188.246.200.2]:465) with esmtpsa (fixed_plain:ray@bellis.me.uk) (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1bDcSF-0006rK-2Y (Exim 4.72) for homenet@ietf.org (return-path ); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:55:51 +0100 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <39B7D708-1CC3-4AB1-8242-4FEAE5CAA272@gmail.com> From: Ray Bellis Message-ID: <85ba77d3-6e59-f457-2e7f-bbf223e12da8@bellis.me.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:55:53 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <39B7D708-1CC3-4AB1-8242-4FEAE5CAA272@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788-bis X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:55:57 -0000 On 16/06/2016 19:48, Ralph Droms wrote: > In my opinion, it is important for the exact requirements and > semantics for the default domain be defined, perhaps even before the > default domain itself is selected. It's not clear to me whether the > domain carried in the Domain-Name TLV can be a delegated domain or it > has to be a special use domain name for location-relative name > resolution like .local, or if either type of name is OK. It's my understanding (albeit this may change depending on Ted's work) that it may be either. The particular point of ".home" (or whatever) would be to provide a "special use" domain that is known to have "homenet site local" semantics that should leak as little as possible outside of that. I think it would also be appropriate to add whatever name is chosen to the BCP 163 list of "Locally Server DNS Zones" such that any queries that do happen to leak beyond the site get sunk by the recursive resolver that receives them. Ray From nobody Thu Jun 16 12:21:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0634612D636 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:21:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LGhaVz5npT04 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2619912D89E for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BECE32009E for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:28:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FB8638BF for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:21:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: HOMENET In-Reply-To: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:21:26 -0000 Ray Bellis wrote: > It should be noted (as pointed out to us by the Chair of the IAB) that > the default domain need not be a single-label "pseudo-TLD" - it could > be a sub-domain of an existing name in the DNS such as ".arpa". I propose that we use something like: THING.hn.arpa Where THING is the local translation of "home".=20=20 I'm open to something other than hn (HomeNet), but it has to be really shor= t. If we could get away with h.arpa, that would be cool too. Thus: home.hn.arpa =E3=83=9B=E3=83=BC=E3=83=A0.hn.arpa maison.hn.arpa =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B5=D9=81=D8=AD=D8=A9 =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B1=D8=A6=D9=8A=D8=B3= =D9=8A=D8=A9.hn.arpa Well, the last one is supposed to be arabic, assuming that google translate= worked, and my emacs's mixed left/right, and right/left stuff worked right= , and my MUA all do the right thing. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [ From nobody Thu Jun 16 13:27:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D759B12D145 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:27:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g0Kyk3blF2PE for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nitro.isi.edu (nitro.isi.edu [128.9.208.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9F2D12D114 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.184.95] ([128.9.184.95]) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u5GKQT8H014579 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:26:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Richardson , HOMENET References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <57630B75.9070807@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:26:29 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MailScanner-ID: u5GKQT8H014579 X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:27:06 -0000 See RFC3172. I don't think .arpa is the correct place for this sort of stuff. Joe On 6/16/2016 12:21 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Ray Bellis wrote: > > It should be noted (as pointed out to us by the Chair of the IAB) that > > the default domain need not be a single-label "pseudo-TLD" - it could > > be a sub-domain of an existing name in the DNS such as ".arpa". > > I propose that we use something like: > THING.hn.arpa > > Where THING is the local translation of "home". > I'm open to something other than hn (HomeNet), but it has to be really short. > If we could get away with h.arpa, that would be cool too. > > Thus: > home.hn.arpa > ホーム.hn.arpa > maison.hn.arpa > > الصÙحة الرئيسية.hn.arpa > > Well, the last one is supposed to be arabic, assuming that google translate worked, and my emacs's mixed left/right, and right/left stuff worked right, and my MUA all do the right thing. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From nobody Thu Jun 16 14:14:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 202AE12DB2F for ; 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Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:14:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.153.135 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:13:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <57630B75.9070807@isi.edu> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <57630B75.9070807@isi.edu> From: Ted Lemon Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:13:53 -0400 Message-ID: To: Joe Touch Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114a69b27b4d7105356bb909 Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Michael Richardson Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:14:38 -0000 --001a114a69b27b4d7105356bb909 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, we went down the .arpa path with .local back in ~2000 and it was soundly rejected. :) On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > See RFC3172. > > I don't think .arpa is the correct place for this sort of stuff. > > Joe > > On 6/16/2016 12:21 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Ray Bellis wrote: > > > It should be noted (as pointed out to us by the Chair of the IAB) > that > > > the default domain need not be a single-label "pseudo-TLD" - it > could > > > be a sub-domain of an existing name in the DNS such as ".arpa". > > > > I propose that we use something like: > > THING.hn.arpa > > > > Where THING is the local translation of "home". > > I'm open to something other than hn (HomeNet), but it has to be really > short. > > If we could get away with h.arpa, that would be cool too. > > > > Thus: > > home.hn.arpa > > =E3=83=9B=E3=83=BC=E3=83=A0.hn.arpa > > maison.hn.arpa > > > > =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B5=D9=81=D8=AD=D8=A9 =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B1=D8=A6=D9=8A=D8= =B3=D9=8A=D8=A9.hn.arpa > > > > Well, the last one is supposed to be arabic, assuming that google > translate worked, and my emacs's mixed left/right, and right/left stuff > worked right, and my MUA all do the right thing. > > > > -- > > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network > architect [ > > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on > rails [ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > homenet mailing list > > homenet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > --001a114a69b27b4d7105356bb909 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yeah, we went down the .arpa path with .local back in ~200= 0 and it was soundly rejected. :)

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Joe Touch <touch@isi.e= du> wrote:
See RFC3172.

I don't think .arpa is the correct place for this sort of stuff.

Joe

On 6/16/2016 12:21 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Ray Bellis <ray@isc.org> wrot= e:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> It should be noted (as pointed out to us by th= e Chair of the IAB) that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> the default domain need not be a single-label = "pseudo-TLD" - it could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> be a sub-domain of an existing name in the DNS= such as ".arpa".
>
> I propose that we use something like:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0THING.hn.arpa
>
> Where THING is the local translation of "home".
> I'm open to something other than hn (HomeNet), but it has to be re= ally short.
> If we could get away with h.arpa, that would be cool too.
>
> Thus:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0home.hn.arpa
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E3=83=9B=E3=83=BC=E3=83=A0.hn.arpa >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0maison.hn.arpa
>
> =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B5=D9=81=D8=AD=D8=A9 =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B1=D8=A6=D9=8A=D8= =B3=D9=8A=D8=A9.hn.arpa
>
> Well, the last one is supposed to be arabic, assuming that google tran= slate worked, and my emacs's mixed left/right, and right/left stuff wor= ked right, and my=C2=A0 MUA all do the right thing.
>
> --
> ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me = the odds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ip= v6 mesh networks [
> ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | network architect=C2=A0 [
> ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mcr@sandelman= .ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2= =A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [
>
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet<= br>
_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--001a114a69b27b4d7105356bb909-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 16:13:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18DBF12DD6B for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:13:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LXFMT0tWt3R8 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 079F512DD57 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u5GNDBBY006852; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:13:11 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE6461FA2; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:13:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id qdty2MIt7Sg0; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:13:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (col75-1-78-194-40-74.fbxo.proxad.net [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B295061F9D; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:13:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:13:09 +0200 Message-ID: <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Michael Richardson In-Reply-To: <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:13:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57633287.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57633287.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57633287.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:13:15 -0000 > Where THING is the local translation of "home". Let us please not open this particular can of worms: - how does software running on my laptop, which just connected to an unknown network, find out what is the local translation of "home"? - how does a user, even one who knows the local language, find out which of the possible translations of "home" is the right one? (What should it be for Greek? oikos? opiti? You are allowed to consult speakers of Greek, but you must get them to reach consensus before the end of the week.) - how do I type οίκος on my French keyboard? There's some precedent for this kind of problems -- Outlook used to (incorrectly) internationalise the prefix "Re:" in e-mail replies. Since software couldn't be expected to know all of the Microsoftese for "Re", you'd end up with subject lines such as "Re: Rép: Antw: Odp: ...". (Re, of course, is Latin for "about such thing", not the abbreviation of "reply".) (The right choice for Homenet, of course, is ".domus". Although, now that I think about it, RFC 1034 doesn't mention whether domain names are in the nominative or the locative, so perhaps we should also consider ".domo".) -- Juliusz From nobody Thu Jun 16 16:54:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B4312D185 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:54:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l9zED1V4s7TU for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B68B212DDC6 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id q132so50239983lfe.3 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:54:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+ocvXWZVk74Zyg1cqOqgPM4Tr2PrloIxB0a2vrS7Qik=; b=hPGfKM8zIWhs6um3YHrvuIYYqpRSbejSnACkNDtNmVLaQP/8uqiwWqqMOT3XU3GUNb h9nRcx9D7CNksXgsVQWWhxaH9mGRGUZPxfmB6A31CUE03k3s766R9ndEXpnJAhuHRYXD 6weuxFg+2J5Kl1hcoP81GVa9iLm/BiKBPDY6SMfZHq3fFRW0yDIDW0kDAzUla0Emk+7t 5XAZ3vRJWJ1dRYBU6N3iIcHlvA7DoSTikZOg63oPKUeq1I4fvdFT06+AqvRwHfYIXcvY G+7ew36GVi5eGQ4ewIiX9RA0lyRPWqdOe9UVECHOb6x9jooZxg/irCKEQvlW+6Ka0oHA cs/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+ocvXWZVk74Zyg1cqOqgPM4Tr2PrloIxB0a2vrS7Qik=; b=ENkWRvzdq1QHkOwRPcATACJfAaB2/gvL/z3nWRS9yOYcE2l+js65OZgaYRpQ+s+GcE Qpd0lPEsH8LWCc7jSyBaXNYKIWwpmztkTyxaul2a7yknXkzOvDpdkNx7k7anbbxhZbCB NgKuHo5bCQK3AZZHjJxSk62VROG2tHFD5mL/eQ7/vgXBbUF4HpwBhagSRWqd80fVpREh pN5bSwxp/4UA7ixWXioRxyY1NScxnskx1/BpI335zmLdJteVGdlED5NRsmVqoXodUGUs T++hCz7ynSjrdPOTEyfbWPJbdpYY9sxjen7dSl9gpEsgdca7pB4xZV13+qUXVkQgv0g5 ANYw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tI+ReKVOT+K6fmw1UB6e+ILXpR86G3IK98PpkUmeZSUC+wNJpdXS+Yix1UemRpoo62Wy1XgSuhtzw1b7A== X-Received: by 10.25.210.20 with SMTP id j20mr1902613lfg.139.1466121261811; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:54:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.153.135 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:53:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Ted Lemon Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:53:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: Juliusz Chroboczek Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114003c602232805356df5e7 Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Michael Richardson Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:54:27 -0000 --001a114003c602232805356df5e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Those who come from cultures that speak languages descended from older or different roots might challenge the universality of that proposal. Perhaps they might argue in favor of .kotiin or .=E0=A4=98=E0=A4=B0. I don't think there is a correct answer to this. .local has worked, which is the best we can hope for with whatever name we come up with. If i18n motivates different names depending on the UI language, that will be a problem. If we really think that the name shouldn't be in english, which is a position to which I can certainly relate, it probably shouldn't be a word in any language. On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek < jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote: > > Where THING is the local translation of "home". > > Let us please not open this particular can of worms: > > - how does software running on my laptop, which just connected to an > unknown network, find out what is the local translation of "home"? > > - how does a user, even one who knows the local language, find out whic= h > of the possible translations of "home" is the right one? (What shoul= d > it be for Greek? oikos? opiti? You are allowed to consult speakers > of Greek, but you must get them to reach consensus before the end of > the week.) > > - how do I type =CE=BF=CE=AF=CE=BA=CE=BF=CF=82 on my French keyboard? > > There's some precedent for this kind of problems -- Outlook used to > (incorrectly) internationalise the prefix "Re:" in e-mail replies. Since > software couldn't be expected to know all of the Microsoftese for "Re", > you'd end up with subject lines such as "Re: R=C3=A9p: Antw: Odp: ...". > (Re, of course, is Latin for "about such thing", not the abbreviation of > "reply".) > > (The right choice for Homenet, of course, is ".domus". Although, now tha= t > I think about it, RFC 1034 doesn't mention whether domain names are in th= e > nominative or the locative, so perhaps we should also consider ".domo".) > > -- Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > --001a114003c602232805356df5e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Those who come from cultures that speak languages descende= d from older or different roots might challenge the universality of that pr= oposal.=C2=A0 Perhaps they might argue in favor of .kotiin or .=E0=A4=98=E0= =A4=B0.

I don't think there is a correct answer to t= his. =C2=A0 .local has worked, which is the best we can hope for with whate= ver name we come up with. =C2=A0 If i18n motivates different names dependin= g on the UI language, that will be a problem. =C2=A0 If we really think tha= t the name shouldn't be in english, which is a position to which I can = certainly relate, it probably shouldn't be a word in any language.


On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek = <jch@= pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:
> Where THING is the local translation of "= home".

Let us please not open this particular can of worms:

=C2=A0 - how does software running on my laptop, which just connected to an=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 unknown network, find out what is the local translation of &q= uot;home"?

=C2=A0 - how does a user, even one who knows the local language, find out w= hich
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the possible translations of "home" is the right= one?=C2=A0 (What should
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 it be for Greek?=C2=A0 oikos?=C2=A0 opiti?=C2=A0 You are allo= wed to consult speakers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of Greek, but you must get them to reach consensus before the= end of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the week.)

=C2=A0 - how do I type =CE=BF=CE=AF=CE=BA=CE=BF=CF=82 on my French keyboard= ?

There's some precedent for this kind of problems -- Outlook used to
(incorrectly) internationalise the prefix "Re:" in e-mail replies= .=C2=A0 Since
software couldn't be expected to know all of the Microsoftese for "= ;Re",
you'd end up with subject lines such as "Re: R=C3=A9p: Antw: Odp: = ...".
(Re, of course, is Latin for "about such thing", not the abbrevia= tion of
"reply".)

(The right choice for Homenet, of course, is ".domus".=C2=A0 Alth= ough, now that
I think about it, RFC 1034 doesn't mention whether domain names are in = the
nominative or the locative, so perhaps we should also consider ".domo&= quot;.)

-- Juliusz

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--001a114003c602232805356df5e7-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 16:58:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161CD12DDD5 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:58:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=registry.asia Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ukgf1xGGR14j for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jerry.dot.asia (jerry.dot.asia [52.72.248.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D684A12DDD2 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaio11s (119246242132.ctinets.com [119.246.242.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by jerry.dot.asia (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u5GNwBeJ015749 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 07:58:13 +0800 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 jerry.dot.asia u5GNwBeJ015749 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=registry.asia; s=default; t=1466121494; bh=2kgzkfgW5kYFDv8ZSPiUtoSZYWMEYVGSlHAUjuDOVSE=; h=From:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:From; b=mZqlJ9q4GjHpKOQuFOdsqIF30DpcbnyTv1OrhakeNK6MHJaYqNkiJsmvvZux1Wd9b s9fGi0/f+TWSAYkNKZG+OQmdRQVpFGIZQayiGaADY03pW/Pz92afa5eeW7YiI+BK2e 6tAMXiVpnZgX95rsRqOvHVJYPd6IsY1hLWzfCcok= From: "Edmon Chung" To: "'Juliusz Chroboczek'" , "'Michael Richardson'" References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> In-Reply-To: <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 07:58:10 +0800 Message-ID: <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQI3v8iVOYeq2J8k248AL7jKmU/wVwHEAREPAmhPsG6e/3CpsA== Content-Language: en-hk Archived-At: Cc: 'HOMENET' Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:58:18 -0000 perhaps it would be easier/better to pick a name from the "reserved = names" at the ICANN/IANA which cannot otherwise be used anyway?... e.g. 2 character non-countrycodes: QM QN QO QP QQ QR QS QT QU QV QW QX QY QZ XA XB XC XD XE XF XG XH XI XJ XK XL XM XN XO XP XQ XR = XS XT XU XV XW XX XY XZ The above are considered "User-assigned: free for assignment at the = disposal of users" in the ISO3166 standard but are still reserved by = ICANN/IANA not to be used anyway. Another option would be to add "-" or a digit to avoid collision, since = those are also not currently accepted in ICANN TLDs. e.g. .H1 , .h-h Just some thoughts... rather than using an alphabetic "word"=20 Edmon > -----Original Message----- > From: homenet [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juliusz > Chroboczek > Sent: Friday, 17 June 2016 07:13 AM > To: Michael Richardson > Cc: HOMENET > Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home >=20 > > Where THING is the local translation of "home". >=20 > Let us please not open this particular can of worms: >=20 > - how does software running on my laptop, which just connected to an > unknown network, find out what is the local translation of "home"? >=20 > - how does a user, even one who knows the local language, find out = which > of the possible translations of "home" is the right one? (What = should > it be for Greek? oikos? opiti? You are allowed to consult = speakers > of Greek, but you must get them to reach consensus before the end = of > the week.) >=20 > - how do I type =CE=BF=CE=AF=CE=BA=CE=BF=CF=82 on my French = keyboard? >=20 > There's some precedent for this kind of problems -- Outlook used to > (incorrectly) internationalise the prefix "Re:" in e-mail replies. = Since software > couldn't be expected to know all of the Microsoftese for "Re", you'd = end up with > subject lines such as "Re: R=C3=A9p: Antw: Odp: ...". > (Re, of course, is Latin for "about such thing", not the abbreviation = of > "reply".) >=20 > (The right choice for Homenet, of course, is ".domus". Although, now = that I think > about it, RFC 1034 doesn't mention whether domain names are in the = nominative or > the locative, so perhaps we should also consider ".domo".) >=20 > -- Juliusz >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From nobody Thu Jun 16 17:06:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD4DE12DE02 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.427 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.427 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8lpUk98aocLl for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8A7E12DE06 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.211] (mul.isi.edu [128.9.160.211]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u5H05fJZ024113 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:05:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Edmon Chung , "'Juliusz Chroboczek'" , "'Michael Richardson'" References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:05:41 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Cc: 'HOMENET' Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:06:26 -0000 On 6/16/2016 4:58 PM, Edmon Chung wrote: > perhaps it would be easier/better to pick a name from the "reserved names" at the ICANN/IANA which cannot otherwise be used anyway?... > > e.g. 2 character non-countrycodes: All currently unused 2-letter codes can still be assigned by ISO as country codes. Hint: if something is "reserved", there's probably a reason. Joe From nobody Thu Jun 16 18:00:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E4112D7D8 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:00:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1oOq9b04PanJ for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (mx2.yitter.info [50.116.54.116]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE64712D914 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 433BF10CAE for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:00:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx2.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx2.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ab-B2-J6Yb0q for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:00:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (c-73-142-157-135.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [73.142.157.135]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 966371067D for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:00:46 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:00:44 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20160617010044.GA22195@mx2.yitter.info> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788-bis X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:00:51 -0000 Quite apart from the correct remark of Ralph and Tim, On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 06:26:03PM +0100, Ray Bellis wrote: > would like to obtain WG consensus on whether ".home" is indeed a > suitable default domain for HNCP. … it is not. We know both that (1) it is already in use in the wild in undetermined ways and (2) that some people have spent a bunch of money attempting to get it delegated to them in the global DNS. We should not, IMO, even for a moment consider using a name with well-known conflicting properties. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Thu Jun 16 18:05:03 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B99F12D9F0 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VUhCEc61MrCN for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (mx2.yitter.info [IPv6:2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:cfab]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 156BB12D17A for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD3C10CB0 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:04:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx2.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx2.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25nyiEtkghhD for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:04:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (c-73-142-157-135.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [73.142.157.135]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22D311067D for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:04:58 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:04:56 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20160617010456.GB22195@mx2.yitter.info> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <57630B75.9070807@isi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <57630B75.9070807@isi.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:05:01 -0000 On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 01:26:29PM -0700, Joe Touch wrote: > See RFC3172. > > I don't think .arpa is the correct place for this sort of stuff. Why? "[T]his domain name undertakes a role as a limited use domain for Internet infrastructure applications," and This domain is termed an "infrastructure domain", as its role is to support the operating infrastructure of the Internet. In particular, the "arpa" domain is not to be used in the same manner (e.g., for naming hosts) as other generic Top Level Domains are commonly used. If the names beneath this special-use name are supposed to cause software to do something differently than it would with any other domain name, then that sounds like "infrastructure" to me. That's why we used it for the special IPv4 only name in dns64, for instance. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Thu Jun 16 18:10:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C96012D82A for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:10:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eLA-tkyWgii2 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (mx2.yitter.info [50.116.54.116]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02DFC12D8E3 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945F510CAE for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:10:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx2.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx2.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EBfyYYDPhnwq for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:10:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (c-73-142-157-135.hsd1.nh.comcast.net [73.142.157.135]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D72091067D for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:10:40 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:10:39 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20160617011039.GC22195@mx2.yitter.info> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:10:43 -0000 On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 07:53:42PM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote: >.local has worked But mostly because ordinary humans never see it. That's what's not clear to me. Is this a name that will mostly be hidden by user-interface sugar (which is mostly how it works with mDNS -- please don't tell me about ssh. That's not our audience, I maintain)? If so, then any domain will do, and putting it under arpa would be fine. Is it a name that we expect people often to use in you-type-it-in contexts? If so, then the story is very different. In any case, I'd really like "translation" to be off the table. We are not competent to do that, and anyway we're specifying a permanent part of infrastructure that will not be able to evolve as (say) language evolves. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Thu Jun 16 18:55:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B015612D84A for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:55:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9U0Nds91cOcv for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 010EB12D7A7 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FF562009E; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:03:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D5D638BF; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:55:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Ray Bellis In-Reply-To: <85ba77d3-6e59-f457-2e7f-bbf223e12da8@bellis.me.uk> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <39B7D708-1CC3-4AB1-8242-4FEAE5CAA272@gmail.com> <85ba77d3-6e59-f457-2e7f-bbf223e12da8@bellis.me.uk> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788-bis X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:55:31 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ray Bellis wrote: >> In my opinion, it is important for the exact requirements and >> semantics for the default domain be defined, perhaps even before the >> default domain itself is selected. It's not clear to me whether the >> domain carried in the Domain-Name TLV can be a delegated domain or it >> has to be a special use domain name for location-relative name >> resolution like .local, or if either type of name is OK. > It's my understanding (albeit this may change depending on Ted's work) > that it may be either. > The particular point of ".home" (or whatever) would be to provide a > "special use" domain that is known to have "homenet site local" > semantics that should leak as little as possible outside of that. Yes, agreed. When you as for printer.home, you expect a ULA that you can re= ach. When you ask for printer.delegatedomain.isp.example.net, you could get a number of things: GUAs, or even ULAs that you can't reach (because they are in my home, or because they are in your *other* home [and the VPN is down?]= ...) > I think it would also be appropriate to add whatever name is chosen to > the BCP 163 list of "Locally Server DNS Zones" such that any queries > that do happen to leak beyond the site get sunk by the recursive > resolver that receives them. Agreed... and AS112? =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBV2NYi4CLcPvd0N1lAQILxQf+JCmUqicJ72/tY/Yy3AZjxZWLYwGCC7Xv Y0fgZpJwWihrPD7R6rtLS6dPtcQjaI2q7RBp2v3QhGmyFpATH7+CN7ZtiCq+OuWV hq8aGSR4IhwAeSCnvzr67DEuXvO84jybrSn9bGU4fGf60ksV9tcVERqd/xW/VARV Vl+KGlnW8t2IIa3mXrtusZeZ9RLrPI6ITgwy3arHNIsgHqB1YxwEyjMrgUGLjIcZ BX6cje4RTtQ67AQW/EU+VpJ56jLrgomQruYD7zF4+5D2OXNBjUlk7bVu9P5T5WLz KqL/pG1BeBLRGc2WMvjEGGESfvOBOUCbF2KHzQnzzTW7jE+QNSKClQ== =esGR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 21:33:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 424D212DD8C for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x-UV-C_YbRiI for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 685BF12DD63 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.189] (cpe-172-250-251-17.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.251.17]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u5H4WgGV025668 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:32:43 -0700 (PDT) To: Andrew Sullivan , homenet@ietf.org References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <57630B75.9070807@isi.edu> <20160617010456.GB22195@mx2.yitter.info> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <57637D69.1050000@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:32:41 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160617010456.GB22195@mx2.yitter.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 04:32:59 -0000 On 6/16/2016 6:04 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 01:26:29PM -0700, Joe Touch wrote: >> See RFC3172. >> >> I don't think .arpa is the correct place for this sort of stuff. > Why? "[T]his domain name undertakes a role as a limited use domain > for Internet infrastructure applications," and > > This domain is termed an "infrastructure domain", as its role is to > support the operating infrastructure of the Internet. In particular, > the "arpa" domain is not to be used in the same manner (e.g., for > naming hosts) as other generic Top Level Domains are commonly used. The use of .home is a lot more like a conventional TLD than it is like any other use in .arpa (e.g., reverse lookups based on IP addresses, telephone number mapping, etc.). > If the names beneath this special-use name are supposed to cause > software to do something differently than it would with any other > domain name, then that sounds like "infrastructure" to me. That's why > we used it for the special IPv4 only name in dns64, for instance. The software does exactly the same thing. Having a response is based on a local database, such that the same query in different places gives different results, is not uncommon in other TLD lookups. Joe From nobody Thu Jun 16 21:43:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F6512B02E for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:43:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PhMbkynkJo86 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22a.google.com (mail-lf0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8FCE12D1D3 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id f6so52942240lfg.0 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:43:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FkL5oje/ANGeBDMqMjetF4IrnBRLOf4xs5PPYiIZ/80=; b=V8G9QWYc3rTAaw94R9wgzIZWrQcoGngLL5r+yEY3WcjFFL8xMiyTWXQzgCAjC2oHe3 23mgtSRmVEc0kNDor3tF82VKF7JvqySIah1OSoYFYt6+4Er6G1tbRblCat4w6ua/uLyo EzY77wyK6u6RO2sLToHyUEYn6589Te/7fCLwfn6HXekzdem2UMJqzqbtIJSm/7u5H5eB /lxKsEK5asG+wKbq/nR2ZvvcosStcFCZRV7pDfYgyNtGsQmAqLTdWCKY/oSPYwbrWEhp Qo1ro++ez9rk/c0EV7sM4EX39pJpI7eu49YNp7yoP1T16bsoDDJ1B4pWUhOnsmrsUjKs cU/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FkL5oje/ANGeBDMqMjetF4IrnBRLOf4xs5PPYiIZ/80=; b=B3Jn+6A+X3Xyj6VQVbJO2Wbeho939Besj0im2d+u3UD5+xJFi2nKl217l32FeKBNm4 3WcUPbV/OnxGFVWUnomrjDWPGlH3SZ412PzgxTCgJOySP70ZnjjUCD+c00rHnWLLXPcF LDf3OIfVaqh7vD2k1JlguZoVKHoEmZPLwOnPWi9M1HZEEv48KhSL358sVwu7ZzIkooHV gw7NKzQphXi43+i0xE2IKEfFUPcIHHdGediQnykXfA+LGXk4O+uzD1Pttlvqwpbgeu9L JQCRoLKl3b1N3U5XvnYyAXBPwRKJhQf0n1NY89Wv0tbcHvGcKVg3Y/0qfeCVVzbU9lwp ENMA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJ+rKHR1GfcX4ylboQQ/isSOLXtc4Id07Y/M74xFHXSW7odgXfqOJCOUf7mu0ZIJKfg0JJtjXXt2bgHew== X-Received: by 10.46.5.136 with SMTP id 130mr28667ljf.13.1466138590877; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:43:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.153.135 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:42:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160617011039.GC22195@mx2.yitter.info> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <20160617011039.GC22195@mx2.yitter.info> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:42:31 -0400 Message-ID: To: Andrew Sullivan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114a69b2e6aaae053571fdcc Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 04:43:15 -0000 --001a114a69b2e6aaae053571fdcc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Ordinary humans see names all the time. See section 2.1 of the homenet naming architecture; if you disagree with the reasoning there, please suggest text! :) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lemon-homenet-naming-architecture-00#section-2.1 On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 9:10 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 07:53:42PM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote: > > >.local has worked > > But mostly because ordinary humans never see it. That's what's not > clear to me. > > Is this a name that will mostly be hidden by user-interface sugar > (which is mostly how it works with mDNS -- please don't tell me about > ssh. That's not our audience, I maintain)? If so, then any domain > will do, and putting it under arpa would be fine. > > Is it a name that we expect people often to use in you-type-it-in > contexts? If so, then the story is very different. > > In any case, I'd really like "translation" to be off the table. We > are not competent to do that, and anyway we're specifying a permanent > part of infrastructure that will not be able to evolve as (say) > language evolves. > > Best regards, > > A > > -- > Andrew Sullivan > ajs@anvilwalrusden.com > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > --001a114a69b2e6aaae053571fdcc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ordinary humans see names all the time. =C2=A0 See section= 2.1 of the homenet naming architecture; if you disagree with the reasoning= there, please suggest text! =C2=A0 :)


On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 9:10 PM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@an= vilwalrusden.com> wrote:
On= Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 07:53:42PM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:

>.local has worked

But mostly because ordinary humans never see it.=C2=A0 That's what'= s not
clear to me.

Is this a name that will mostly be hidden by user-interface sugar
(which is mostly how it works with mDNS -- please don't tell me about ssh.=C2=A0 That's not our audience, I maintain)?=C2=A0 If so, then any = domain
will do, and putting it under arpa would be fine.

Is it a name that we expect people often to use in you-type-it-in
contexts?=C2=A0 If so, then the story is very different.

In any case, I'd really like "translation" to be off the tabl= e.=C2=A0 We
are not competent to do that, and anyway we're specifying a permanent part of infrastructure that will not be able to evolve as (say)
language evolves.

Best regards,

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@anvilwalrusden.com

____________________________= ___________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet

--001a114a69b2e6aaae053571fdcc-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 21:47:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C71A12D1DD for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:47:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=registry.asia Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b9ht7bK-HFKT for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jerry.dot.asia (jerry.dot.asia [52.72.248.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 429F712D127 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaio11s ([115.160.148.170]) (authenticated bits=0) by jerry.dot.asia (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u5H4lcVf025372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:47:40 +0800 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 jerry.dot.asia u5H4lcVf025372 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=registry.asia; s=default; t=1466138862; bh=EUc6I+1ANyCxDYRYQwym/8ALRaxfOvj4hVCpxU3SY3I=; h=From:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:From; b=Ca7NFim2ZevdVv9mE/AD2ey+LCfpjLd0LP9PRWZEBhdLrGheEgE3JEe20c0mddMa3 RJwgHXjtrWki0AI4joyoBNllv8kSLDoPg1iUvasm95rcm+weDIhpwnvarS476IXRhS /XzUWJ91hYwolA5pj4Yw8hShSqbcCA9MdKdNWQrQ= From: "Edmon Chung" To: "'Joe Touch'" , "'Juliusz Chroboczek'" , "'Michael Richardson'" References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:47:36 +0800 Message-ID: <10d001d1c853$61098670$231c9350$@registry.asia> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQI3v8iVOYeq2J8k248AL7jKmU/wVwHEAREPAmhPsG4Cqp1T5QHVn+UdntvBudA= Content-Language: en-hk Archived-At: Cc: 'HOMENET' Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 04:47:45 -0000 the ones identified are allocated for user specific use so they cannot become country codes. Edmon > -----Original Message----- > From: homenet [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch > Sent: Friday, 17 June 2016 08:06 AM > To: Edmon Chung ; 'Juliusz Chroboczek' paris-diderot.fr>; 'Michael Richardson' > Cc: 'HOMENET' > Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home > > > > On 6/16/2016 4:58 PM, Edmon Chung wrote: > > perhaps it would be easier/better to pick a name from the "reserved names" at the > ICANN/IANA which cannot otherwise be used anyway?... > > > > e.g. 2 character non-countrycodes: > > All currently unused 2-letter codes can still be assigned by ISO as country codes. > > Hint: if something is "reserved", there's probably a reason. > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From nobody Thu Jun 16 22:23:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8635812D1C2 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=registry.asia Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V_YYAigKDRHc for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jerry.dot.asia (jerry.dot.asia [52.72.248.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD23212D16D for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaio11s ([115.160.148.170]) (authenticated bits=0) by jerry.dot.asia (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u5H5NkrS026582 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:23:48 +0800 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 jerry.dot.asia u5H5NkrS026582 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=registry.asia; s=default; t=1466141030; bh=lhMQYAML1L2H6ngoziIU6VXSSXoGmPYvkjfoogt7zYQ=; h=From:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:From; b=VqHSYOefTXkxAR1FVd3sGYtUnGhHMsxAxNibTYyK8rK8OfBowN8KMEtrtzBtekxZ4 MTLGKAlqmBCoDGQMmLr5Q+gEM++BPnw+IxIP2YkDX4Q/9LLgtCuvL+J1RNlsHdZJYG OTWkkyarXqmTvkxFrc5Ro7ZN5VVtZ401iAfpHFuE= From: "Edmon Chung" To: "'Joe Touch'" , "'Juliusz Chroboczek'" , "'Michael Richardson'" References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> <10d001d1c853$61098670$231c9350$@registry.asia> In-Reply-To: <10d001d1c853$61098670$231c9350$@registry.asia> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:23:44 +0800 Message-ID: <10d901d1c858$6d7dc010$48794030$@registry.asia> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQI3v8iVOYeq2J8k248AL7jKmU/wVwHEAREPAmhPsG4Cqp1T5QHVn+UdAh5d4cieytnKUA== Content-Language: en-hk Archived-At: Cc: 'HOMENET' Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:23:55 -0000 see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2 for explanation. Edmon > -----Original Message----- > From: homenet [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Edmon Chung > Sent: Friday, 17 June 2016 12:48 PM > To: 'Joe Touch' ; 'Juliusz Chroboczek' diderot.fr>; 'Michael Richardson' > Cc: 'HOMENET' > Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home > > the ones identified are allocated for user specific use so they cannot become country > codes. > Edmon > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: homenet [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch > > Sent: Friday, 17 June 2016 08:06 AM > > To: Edmon Chung ; 'Juliusz Chroboczek' > > ; 'Michael Richardson' > > > > Cc: 'HOMENET' > > Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home > > > > > > > > On 6/16/2016 4:58 PM, Edmon Chung wrote: > > > perhaps it would be easier/better to pick a name from the "reserved > names" at the > > ICANN/IANA which cannot otherwise be used anyway?... > > > > > > e.g. 2 character non-countrycodes: > > > > All currently unused 2-letter codes can still be assigned by ISO as > country codes. > > > > Hint: if something is "reserved", there's probably a reason. > > > > Joe > > > > _______________________________________________ > > homenet mailing list > > homenet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From nobody Thu Jun 16 23:06:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CC6012D51A for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:06:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XD9-drwJ_WsO for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1490312B076 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.189] (cpe-172-250-251-17.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.251.17]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u5H65WWm008908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:05:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Edmon Chung , "'Juliusz Chroboczek'" , "'Michael Richardson'" References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> <10d001d1c853$61098670$231c9350$@registry.asia> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <5763932C.1010107@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:05:32 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <10d001d1c853$61098670$231c9350$@registry.asia> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Cc: 'HOMENET' Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:06:06 -0000 On 6/16/2016 9:47 PM, Edmon Chung wrote: > the ones identified are allocated for user specific use so they cannot > become country codes. And the citation you give (the Wikipedia entry) indicates how some of them are being used - not for countries, but in other ways that could interfere with their use by IANA. Joe > Edmon > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: homenet [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch >> Sent: Friday, 17 June 2016 08:06 AM >> To: Edmon Chung ; 'Juliusz Chroboczek' > paris-diderot.fr>; 'Michael Richardson' >> Cc: 'HOMENET' >> Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home >> >> >> >> On 6/16/2016 4:58 PM, Edmon Chung wrote: >>> perhaps it would be easier/better to pick a name from the "reserved > names" at the >> ICANN/IANA which cannot otherwise be used anyway?... >>> e.g. 2 character non-countrycodes: >> All currently unused 2-letter codes can still be assigned by ISO as > country codes. >> Hint: if something is "reserved", there's probably a reason. >> >> Joe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> homenet mailing list >> homenet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From SRS0=bz8/=SJ=darou.fr=pierre.pfister@bounces.m4x.org Fri Jun 17 00:37:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB8512B026 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:37:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yr0NtuakuMyp for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.polytechnique.org (mx1.polytechnique.org [129.104.30.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4833312B019 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.228.42.26] (unknown [173.38.220.57]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ssl.polytechnique.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45521564C2B; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:37:49 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Pierre Pfister In-Reply-To: <20160617011039.GC22195@mx2.yitter.info> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:37:48 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8F5FED4F-4929-4DF1-B451-BC35ADDC53FF@darou.fr> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <20160617011039.GC22195@mx2.yitter.info> To: Andrew Sullivan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP at svoboda.polytechnique.org (Fri Jun 17 09:37:49 2016 +0200 (CEST)) Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:06:31 -0000 I think this is a key point indeed. mDNS works really hard to *not* show any name to the user. I would like it to be the same for homenet, but I am not sure we have a = complete solution for no-name multi-link service discovery for homenet = yet. So either we seriously address the service discovery problem. And we = make the assumption that non-geeky users shall not see names, never. In = which case the name we pick does not matter. Or we assume users will see names, in which case allocating a = user-friendly name is utterly important. Regards - Pierre > Le 17 juin 2016 =C3=A0 03:10, Andrew Sullivan = a =C3=A9crit : >=20 > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 07:53:42PM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote: >=20 >> .local has worked >=20 > But mostly because ordinary humans never see it. That's what's not > clear to me. >=20 > Is this a name that will mostly be hidden by user-interface sugar > (which is mostly how it works with mDNS -- please don't tell me about > ssh. That's not our audience, I maintain)? If so, then any domain > will do, and putting it under arpa would be fine. >=20 > Is it a name that we expect people often to use in you-type-it-in > contexts? If so, then the story is very different. >=20 > In any case, I'd really like "translation" to be off the table. We > are not competent to do that, and anyway we're specifying a permanent > part of infrastructure that will not be able to evolve as (say) > language evolves. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > A >=20 > --=20 > Andrew Sullivan > ajs@anvilwalrusden.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From nobody Fri Jun 17 01:22:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC19412D0DA for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:22:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.821 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.821 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7_uM1gqQZDju for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from julia1.inet.fi (mta-out1.inet.fi [62.71.2.230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D5DA128E18 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from poro.lan (80.220.86.47) by julia1.inet.fi (9.0.002.03-2-gbe5d057) (authenticated as stenma-47) id 56E14E9D062F0934; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:22:34 +0300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <8F5FED4F-4929-4DF1-B451-BC35ADDC53FF@darou.fr> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:22:43 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <88F1A737-CADA-44B0-8679-93F2D9422832@iki.fi> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <20160617011039.GC22195@mx2.yitter.info> <8F5FED4F-4929-4DF1-B451-BC35ADDC53FF@darou.fr> To: Pierre Pfister X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Andrew Sullivan Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:22:53 -0000 On 17.6.2016, at 10.37, Pierre Pfister wrote: > I think this is a key point indeed. >=20 > mDNS works really hard to *not* show any name to the user. > I would like it to be the same for homenet, but I am not sure we have = a complete solution for no-name multi-link service discovery for homenet = yet. Agreed; dealing with naming collisions is mainly the painful part on = implementation front. > So either we seriously address the service discovery problem. And we = make the assumption that non-geeky users shall not see names, never. In = which case the name we pick does not matter. > Or we assume users will see names, in which case allocating a = user-friendly name is utterly important. For home use case, I suspect there is no need for multiple zones _at = all_, at least visible to the user, and users do not typically care = about the domain unless they want remote access (and I am not sure many = really do, and in that case it would be something sourced from ISP = anyway). e.g. even if we (for implementation purposes) use hybrid proxy = underneath, the published data would be just =E2=80=98legacy browse=E2=80=99= (flat, no domain at all) names and not =E2=80=98browse=E2=80=99 (full = domain _including_ whatever .hn.asdf.arpa we wind up with). To make = names unique we might want to garbage-fy them if we want to use mdns as = source of information, but that=E2=80=99s it. Cheers, -Markus From nobody Fri Jun 17 01:37:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C20C12B031 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:37:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OS_dTA-Rml-4 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.portfast.net (hydrogen.portfast.net [188.246.200.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABB9112D127 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 01:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [46.227.151.81] (port=58245 helo=rays-mbp.local) by hydrogen.portfast.net ([188.246.200.2]:465) with esmtpsa (fixed_plain:ray@bellis.me.uk) (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1bDpGy-0004kN-Jt (Exim 4.72) for homenet@ietf.org (return-path ); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:37:04 +0100 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <20160617010044.GA22195@mx2.yitter.info> From: Ray Bellis Message-ID: <4e794ce6-2605-a0d2-c0e7-fe44bb149794@bellis.me.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:37:06 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160617010044.GA22195@mx2.yitter.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788-bis X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:37:08 -0000 On 17/06/2016 02:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > … it is not. We know both that (1) it is already in use in the wild > in undetermined ways and (2) that some people have spent a bunch of > money attempting to get it delegated to them in the global DNS. We > should not, IMO, even for a moment consider using a name with > well-known conflicting properties. Whilst there may be "undermined" ways it's being used, it's clear that most of the ways it's used are just because some vendors and sites decided to use that for their default *site local* domain which makes it completely consistent with what we need. I therefore completely disagree on point #1 - officially allocating .home for this purpose and having it "sunk" by default on internet facing recursive resolvers would IMHO actually *help* with the traffic hitting the root and reduce leakage of it. As for #2, yeah, that's hard, but it seems ICANN won't do anything about ".home" because of #1 anyway, but they seemed stalled on outright rejecting it and have said (AFAICR) that an RFC 6761 registration would allow them to reject (and refund) those applications. Ray From nobody Fri Jun 17 06:17:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD01F12D650 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:17:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1TI4t8muXk3H for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 115A912D583 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F072009E; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F3F638BF; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:17:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Juliusz Chroboczek In-Reply-To: <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:17:28 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > Let us please not open this particular can of worms: > - how does software running on my laptop, which just connected to an > unknown network, find out what is the local translation of "home"? It doesn't. It uses HNCP. > - how does a user, even one who knows the local language, find out > which of the possible translations of "home" is the right one? (What > should it be for Greek? oikos? opiti? You are allowed to consult > speakers of Greek, but you must get them to reach consensus before the > end of the week.) > - how do I type =CE=BF=CE=AF=CE=BA=CE=BF=CF=82 on my French keyboar= d? You don't. You type "printer", and/or select "printer" from a selection men= u. > There's some precedent for this kind of problems -- Outlook used to > (incorrectly) internationalise the prefix "Re:" in e-mail replies. yes. I agree that this is annoying. > Since software couldn't be expected to know all of the Microsoftese f= or > "Re", you'd end up with subject lines such as "Re: R=C3=A9p: Antw: Od= p: > ...". (Re, of course, is Latin for "about such thing", not the > abbreviation of "reply".) That's definitely a good point. Outlook should have a bug that the English translation of "Re" is wrong. > (The right choice for Homenet, of course, is ".domus". Although, now > that I think about it, RFC 1034 doesn't mention whether domain names > are in the nominative or the locative, so perhaps we should also > consider ".domo".) I'm open to this idea... I prefer domus. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBV2P4W4CLcPvd0N1lAQKJmQgAiTo3hNUbGxvf/ZVgpfinKkhpMo68IdRY K+C+LVShMsh2kawBijRHE1efJC3KiQ8oohWoumNagMEgiweqiQjcm6AJ9jdO9jh9 EHbyQvSGHK1RlT5NTh1RdKDOBXTOfbdMEvhPWh4uGU/8HWgtj6Vo/n5KnAlB/Nwg L7FY/0NiPSC+aMM3YEmH+xpOhBjzTwYwjz3olm0dbJbPN5g4Vd+GFBQ+FPTtYiUd Q10iS6sfkT5W+OzYlsDHCp9XZRNrLXpBNc8V/XqCESEno6oGKBLi8nSOnfxOkRl6 5wJEYT6eJsoFQxsmVnfmnEd4YOfIrVOGa2b+R5LFP/eVWe3hasbfDw== =SIuW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 06:21:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213AD12D59D for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:21:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mh9-8wLIaBXZ for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2975912B01E for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E0C2200A5 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF918638BF for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:21:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20160617011039.GC22195@mx2.yitter.info> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <20160617011039.GC22195@mx2.yitter.info> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:21:29 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Andrew Sullivan wrote: >> .local has worked > But mostly because ordinary humans never see it. That's what's not > clear to me. I think so. I also think that it shows up in logs and ... > Is this a name that will mostly be hidden by user-interface sugar > (which is mostly how it works with mDNS -- please don't tell me about > ssh. That's not our audience, I maintain)? If so, then any domain > will do, and putting it under arpa would be fine. +10. and yes, it shows up in ssh for the geeks. > Is it a name that we expect people often to use in you-type-it-in > contexts? If so, then the story is very different. > In any case, I'd really like "translation" to be off the table. We are > not competent to do that, and anyway we're specifying a permanent part > of infrastructure that will not be able to evolve as (say) language > evolves. We specify "THING.hn.arpa" (it's really "hn.arpa" that we are reserving, and suggesting that it have one additional label) and let local culture come to their own consensus. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBV2P5SoCLcPvd0N1lAQJRnQgAqe1WvHcKUEG+dLRyaoh/O2trVFHqk4yJ z51R9klKXQdZ1vOolizbIMzwTethwfY3hLcPSzBdRnuc8dOWh2PRmYwFLw0KU84y XdK4cJMeljFYyo+1pzja56RPuygvCADHcr/wHqoRdTqBlUjiNeLNKbOy1qL+bj3g WtLKaEJSMPAk5256xoXSMkIUhRfFoVwDxdZYEI5Buxi5OOw/B+bDMVWZsnkPb356 qt17ap95ozC35l8Kq1I5WGeksk8biTp9cpS5kIEVcCHt0mCZ6ulP/GXe702V8AcJ 0gZQxgzCOnCBfw0Y7GydZwv5rr0awUumoeF4k1Pq6NHeMO015LLriA== =S+ZK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 06:23:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE53912D660 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:23:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Djm9Od--3TZv for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEC6612D63B for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFBC200A5; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF5C638BF; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:23:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Edmon Chung" In-Reply-To: <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Cc: 'HOMENET' , 'Juliusz Chroboczek' Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:23:19 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Edmon Chung wrote: > e.g. 2 character non-countrycodes: QM QN QO QP QQ QR QS QT QU QV QW QX > QY QZ XA XB XC XD XE XF XG XH XI XJ XK XL XM XN XO XP XQ XR XS XT XU XV > XW XX XY XZ .xh .xn seem like the best. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBV2P5wICLcPvd0N1lAQL7rwgAp37bvMgholn9JIJQJHWKcf3jr5a7Jz0E 2v5zJeeJ7BmRpf5mLDv1LwsPjwPcwZuAh5B35ATzQKORPehAlYI2+N68rmEyvagW r+QH2UGb/gxgZFf1LFkq04URlafN3GYNBTHiOTi65H0w2T6IemvGLaP/G5njUfj6 VHkltI+UIUB/dfczuvGBqnZmD9wPtyDP38tLe0W5k+kmfilNnXh7Z4NAlWOFK0u4 InNAS00ZZ9NrIjW8/p/US43K71Zfwk/623Zr3DoOPC41DDI87XlHjfu7XkNNu7VH O3TuA4YW4yFDY8AJXwfLRivLYZflkuSS3MQHtekwYwhBhXPOjICCrA== =xbAv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 06:31:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FAAE12D5B8 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2fLOGNYEFIMP for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x235.google.com (mail-lf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B838D12B01E for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id f6so60457426lfg.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XyKIPXWeCC0E9JX5qSQ6mgpVzesxdVlPmWPUVE13zHE=; b=HaogFAxLMIExA/aD+rCRlZE6r8zEqg6Hn1vr/QlBD5HhTU5Q63BKYrUeLLzOMH4Aci FRjKalQVLoc7g++V82mo5CKWbjfm1Al+4XlhTo/BjiMpCyI1g1yRyCDeunWrAQt8IyH+ /XS9AwSYJxxg0wtLn1AVkQTa969P3qnXIFHe+AJJ9/czMPyIsusn//wZSL809qu0mmmQ kItZzzQg56YDD3ZPMAFgcuFMD1TEePKAEB8P+cQ43pQO74IBWj4dRjhzuX7JGdeHzBsV V0zyj7Bf9Ti/mA1QnFvz5M5kXOU6l3vlIZsFd0hy+svZ4h+pBlkOdlwg7t67SYIGaLai ukbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XyKIPXWeCC0E9JX5qSQ6mgpVzesxdVlPmWPUVE13zHE=; b=i8N5GajUrdp3Vr6RTMNry+OwnYhKWoULlsVlmymrnyT0pHd4hKW0toUMPJzqJ2e1Fx 2vdQhgAHbXBIQREEZDWVoFClReKUyZOtgU4PvYxTlFC7Q6gQcSeApMLeExZj/pCJ6G5Y MkmwSV7f01ldYSms7TCC2MeweQxPw8G2QUJusW/TNWI4eUNDf/0pXqDJDSTKSy/wr183 75K5GX9Kc20S+bIo8WGYyz+H38Y1eUPkG+blLemsLR68WYsB13zf+s4x3eDfXd+AI+8x EwzEWacy2viTAm6YBn97lDVl3T4fPr6wg80Sjqco/gVNxRPz5Xfsiw0pHSBEKpzZYahZ rOAw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tL89oR9GQ3MhqXsRjUz8B2WN9NczpfR1fwBZHx35C3oFpa+StQiC3ya6KuXkrS4U/ams1dCrigj+EgyTQ== X-Received: by 10.25.91.76 with SMTP id p73mr555367lfb.181.1466170296817; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.217.219 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:30:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7526.1466169795@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> <7526.1466169795@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:30:57 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11411536b8f4a60535795f34 Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Juliusz Chroboczek , Edmon Chung Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:31:41 -0000 --001a11411536b8f4a60535795f34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Michael, the reason to have a consistent name is that the name _will_ show up in UI elements, and therefore _should_ behave in a comprehensible manner. The IETF tends to be understandably dismissive of the end-user's capacity to correctly model the functioning of the network, but we should not use techniques that deliberately subvert the user's ability to make models. The problem with presenting something that is not the actual token that is being used to address the device to the user is that the user cannot then tell the difference between that device and some other device with the same presentation name, but a different identifying name. This then becomes an attack surface for malware that wants to trick the user. Even if the user doesn't understand the structure of the name, there is no harm in revealing that name in the UI. It can appear next to the descriptive name. On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 9:23 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Edmon Chung wrote: > > e.g. 2 character non-countrycodes: QM QN QO QP QQ QR QS QT QU QV QW > QX > > QY QZ XA XB XC XD XE XF XG XH XI XJ XK XL XM XN XO XP XQ XR XS XT XU > XV > > XW XX XY XZ > > .xh > .xn > > seem like the best. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > --001a11411536b8f4a60535795f34 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Michael, the reason to have a consistent name is that the = name _will_ show up in UI elements, and therefore _should_ behave in a comp= rehensible manner. =C2=A0 The IETF tends to be understandably dismissive of= the end-user's capacity to correctly model the functioning of the netw= ork, but we should not use techniques that deliberately subvert the user= 9;s ability to make models.

The problem with presenting = something that is not the actual token that is being used to address the de= vice to the user is that the user cannot then tell the difference between t= hat device and some other device with the same presentation name, but a dif= ferent identifying name. =C2=A0 This then becomes an attack surface for mal= ware that wants to trick the user.

Even if the use= r doesn't understand the structure of the name, there is no harm in rev= ealing that name in the UI. =C2=A0 It can appear next to the descriptive na= me.

On= Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 9:23 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.= ca> wrote:

Edmon Chung <edmon@registry.asia<= /a>> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > e.g. 2 character non-countrycodes: QM QN QO QP QQ QR QS = QT QU QV QW QX
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > QY QZ XA XB XC XD XE XF XG XH XI XJ XK XL XM XN XO XP XQ= XR XS XT XU XV
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > XW XX XY XZ

.xh
.xn

seem like the best.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


--001a11411536b8f4a60535795f34-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 06:39:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A5D12D5AB for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:39:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZaWiR4zFC3Ym for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9928D12D52B for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E51E2009E; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E348638BF; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:39:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> <7526.1466169795@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Juliusz Chroboczek , Edmon Chung Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:39:35 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Ted Lemon wrote: > Michael, the reason to have a consistent name is that the name _will_ > show up in UI elements, and therefore _should_ behave in a > comprehensible manner. The IETF tends to be understandably dismissive > of the end-user's capacity to correctly model the functioning of the > network, but we should not use techniques that deliberately subvert the > user's ability to make models. I violently agree, but you seem to be saying I missed this. Perhaps you can explain to me what it is that you think I'm suggesting? That's also why I think that it should be possible for the underlying name to be in the native language. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBV2P9kYCLcPvd0N1lAQJm3QgApWanSwK39rxLvB12DO63HVI3fHIumn8/ mLimKiWEbcsJtkOqyVBKxgwV3MNgsmfAcDKIqiYLRntmGXFjqK8pTo4vzY1mLoAL ggkM95K6xRgN4c1r4D01FWRGSV+bv10Vlsxxz14bExjrldlrF/IlEZXZgQfcW6Py T3m5K8+Th17o99uqvODunOuW+pQKKi2nP8kPoLXwAdUUOhEDj/mIIltGyAaa/kfB UyRFmXcm/s4420rwhbiNZ24X0zJ9IN27v+kGGHEwMgpeeFFxCem45VOhSvFpW+ey 1XzmV5pDzgIH1xPHRbdlwZILERlAz1Oq0hdOGchylbQNw9WQvOvXKg== =BVD7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 06:45:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0770812D5CE for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:45:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id otsSRXHDPikG for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x232.google.com (mail-lf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3935A12B01E for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id f6so60701509lfg.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:45:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0vdafuEYJD/LjDSWgD5wCPjN7ukX6kDZhqmgGFtlYsU=; b=y5G4C+uc4L8SovalzCfcJVLrjPNPofM4tNfnG9K8s3wgWsMyeSBJGcPL7zuAc8JcXi 502RHxq7CE1Rooq8kfsxdSmP1bHL9YoaNvkvE2cPe9YaRTBIO8TF5LnA8GPYf4/OlKe6 baWhqXndsIZ5HTTBRcWkRRk/w/rr4/dzZG3kEgKViMXufUb1oaPUzxT5IxNqJBSiRKB4 8J2PwXtarg9ese0sQLyTfTj9VVDZOSG7AR+n5z7HhPwOXiAwDzL/sOrpc2NVf7CFmvUb MbFou9pRWZNsdgu0ovK3gyPRJGZkizGC3Vu4J6o/ZcWNnXEDWAzbHDKDVeXBSgSvnCU2 zo6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0vdafuEYJD/LjDSWgD5wCPjN7ukX6kDZhqmgGFtlYsU=; b=KyenrDZ433ngyGqHRULctkLR9iflEvUp2wtnSGh7cw0XEfA0qjfy8JDNCxeiji53gm 4TibO9hc5gNWJNhMdNKZ7ovgkJVPbdqD5ghNUo6fcUqa047vse4Fn7khZEEbDQ1V6/FK 3M7ua60qNKsFv6IgKDXYKVQou/ClOnzuFRVObFfI0TZdE7mHyfES9BVUMALczsjHwaMO cu6+UpKS4f6RQU2GmElytaHC0W4kIYHfC5kokJzwr4XczT8J1u6xL+3StMlyzHlEykG1 ITz7M20v5qIltJZi6yp6bmrmZpcFPG+uMtQb/+4zP80rrnMxnWGEdQiVHI5WgiSGAazG phNg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJ47PYlM6D4LfL0wvzsPWVOyJ4xdTAaK07LxOvqGNO6Txoa1qB6cmxy/mclP/OGm7dlUMLtVEc3dG7Vfg== X-Received: by 10.25.85.200 with SMTP id j191mr593645lfb.39.1466171129360; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:45:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.217.219 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:44:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <11120.1466170772@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> <7526.1466169795@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <11120.1466170772@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:44:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11424d0c58865b0535799155 Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Juliusz Chroboczek , Edmon Chung Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:45:33 -0000 --001a11424d0c58865b0535799155 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 If the name is not consistent wherever the user encounters it, the model that the user forms will be wrong. If .home and .domus are treated as equal by the system, but presented inconsistently, then the user will form a mental model that sees the two as distinct. And, to be clear, any time you have a UI that is responsible for faking things out for the user, you will have inconsistencies, and the user will see these inconsistencies. It's much better not to do this. I think that the model of hiding ".local" is wrong for just this reason. The user interface should be operable by someone who does not have a correct mental model of how the network works, but should still present information that is consistent with that model and doesn't hide information. --001a11424d0c58865b0535799155 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If the name is not consistent wherever the user encounters= it, the model that the user forms will be wrong. =C2=A0 If .home and .domu= s are treated as equal by the system, but presented inconsistently, then th= e user will form a mental model that sees the two as distinct. =C2=A0 And, = to be clear, any time you have a UI that is responsible for faking things o= ut for the user, you will have inconsistencies, and the user will see these= inconsistencies.

It's much better not to do this. = =C2=A0 I think that the model of hiding ".local" is wrong for jus= t this reason. =C2=A0 The user interface should be operable by someone who = does not have a correct mental model of how the network works, but should s= till present information that is consistent with that model and doesn't= hide information.
--001a11424d0c58865b0535799155-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 12:39:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB8B12D0AE for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:39:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.644 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.644 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Gi0S1yllS5T for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0068.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24B0012D0B5 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (unknown [216.40.38.60]) by smtprelay04.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049923521C3 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 19:39:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Session-Marker: 6176726940646F7269612E6F7267 X-Spam-Summary: 50, 0, 0, , d41d8cd98f00b204, avri@acm.org, :, RULES_HIT:41:152:355:379:599:854:967:973:988:989:1042:1260:1261:1277:1311:1313:1314:1345:1359:1381:1437:1513:1515:1516:1518:1521:1534:1541:1593:1594:1711:1730:1747:1777:1792:1963:2393:2525:2553:2560:2563:2682:2685:2859:2933:2937:2939:2942:2945:2947:2951:2954:3022:3138:3139:3140:3141:3142:3352:3865:3866:3867:3868:3870:3871:3872:3874:3934:3936:3938:3941:3944:3947:3950:3953:3956:3959:4250:5007:6119:7652:7903:8985:9025:10004:10400:10848:11232:11658:11914:12043:12517:12519:12740:13069:13311:13357:14096:14097:14181:14721:14764:21080:21366:21433:30022:30029:30030:30054, 0, RBL:none, CacheIP:none, Bayesian:0.5, 0.5, 0.5, Netcheck:none, DomainCache:0, MSF:not bulk, SPF:fp, MSBL:0, DNSBL:none, Custom_rules:0:0:0, LFtime:2, LUA_SUMMARY:none X-HE-Tag: scarf35_34c4bde2de762 X-Filterd-Recvd-Size: 1960 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [23.82.54.75]) (Authenticated sender: avri@doria.org) by omf10.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 19:39:22 +0000 (UTC) References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> To: homenet@ietf.org From: avri doria Message-ID: <8a163b8c-1eba-d2e1-3c93-5c77c9ba641c@acm.org> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:38:42 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 160617-0, 06/17/2016), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: avri@acm.org List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 19:39:25 -0000 On 16-Jun-16 19:13, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > (The right choice for Homenet, of course, is ".domus". Although, now tha= t > I think about it, RFC 1034 doesn't mention whether domain names are in th= e > nominative or the locative, so perhaps we should also consider ".domo".) I think there is an important point in this bit of humor. If it is decided that a TLD needs to be reserved for the purposes of a protocol, it does not need to be a natural language word from any particular living language. Additionally, it is good to include in the requirements that any name selected should not be one that is in use already, whether by delegation or de-facto, or is in contention elsewhere. It should be a combination of characters that brings no baggage with it. Neologisms like "homenet" are good compromises between human factor understanding and avoidance of problem areas. avri --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From nobody Fri Jun 17 12:52:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E611A12DA60 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:52:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gRREM3Vcnkpo for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 088D412D0AE for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6072009E; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B1BE638BF; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:52:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> <7526.1466169795@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <11120.1466170772@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Juliusz Chroboczek , Edmon Chung Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 19:52:55 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Ted Lemon wrote: > model that the user forms will be wrong. If .home and .domus are I don't propose that they be the same. I'm suggesting that the HNCP will pick one or the other (or some other translation) is picked as the single choice. > It's much better not to do this. I think that the model of hiding > ".local" is wrong for just this reason. Please explain more. Is it that I should be able to copy and paste from the UI to my command line? How is showing .local in the GUI important? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBV2RVDoCLcPvd0N1lAQJ6nwf9Fr3+7fNouRIdx+ph+R8Z0kJanEy84bAP Xq5jS4wi03ZHf3wpRCOB/ymW4q7SRbz2GSqu+H6wjpQ75X9auTSyVefjq9tOyyKC 3d68lkh7dY/YT+Er8RWym8C0m6K1VXGwk0uoCUpo3nGLDYGN4tkz7tQ7FROglfnl r+27bdYVOXJuK+W6YAfXuLpCs2sGRPZypab2L2WrRIM2BeM5ZADru7EuJ1ufWIHD 6rCoX3Ve6RhsHg1g2WVop011Ipb96eu5E8wIYWn5ADdNMlG4u7OKokUOrgGrzzkW 6A2uOfrdK7VBBukEIqFsqEwNRb7mOuAiWu1TpeHNaKfwM+ztY9LNuQ== =Lz2r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 13:05:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B16812D112 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:05:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.016 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.016 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hsn46PHHOO2Q for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crp-spam-02.corp.cira.ca (mx2.cira.ca [192.228.22.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C05B12DA83 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:05:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by SpamTitan at corp.cira.ca Received: from EXCH-02.CORP.CIRA.CA ([fe80::3c25:d5f2:72b8:e35c]) by EXCH-01.CORP.CIRA.CA ([fe80::7da9:30c7:8c6:45f0%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 16:05:44 -0400 From: Jacques Latour To: Michael Richardson , Ted Lemon Thread-Topic: [homenet] alternatives to .home Thread-Index: AQHRyARLnTveFLEAsky5aA6l32DAvZ/s/FCAgAAMlACAAODwgIAAAieAgAACZQCAAAF6gIAAZtMA//+9ibA= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 20:05:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> <7526.1466169795@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <11120.1466170772@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <27316.1466193170@obiwan.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <27316.1466193170@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.16.4.142] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C059877D829F76429F49E0B48705D888DDFB168EEXCH02CORPCIRAC_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Edmon Chung , Juliusz Chroboczek Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 20:05:46 -0000 --_000_C059877D829F76429F49E0B48705D888DDFB168EEXCH02CORPCIRAC_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SG93IGFib3V0IGEgc2luZ2xlIGludGVybmF0aW9uYWxseSByZWNvZ25pc2VkIHN5bWJvbD8NCg0K DQoNCi4g8J+PoCAgICAgKGZvciB0aG9zZSBpbiB0ZXh0LCBpdOKAmXMgLltlbW9qaSBmb3IgYSBo b21lXSkNCg0KDQoNCi4geG4tLXVtOGgNCg0KDQoNClRoaW5raW5nIHRvbyBtdWNoIG91dCBvZiB0 aGUgYm94PyDimLogIEhhcHB5IEZyaWRheQ0KDQoNCg0KSmFjaw0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQotLS0t LU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogaG9tZW5ldCBbbWFpbHRvOmhvbWVuZXQtYm91 bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIE1pY2hhZWwgUmljaGFyZHNvbg0KU2VudDogSnVu ZS0xNy0xNiAzOjUzIFBNDQpUbzogVGVkIExlbW9uDQpDYzogSE9NRU5FVDsgSnVsaXVzeiBDaHJv Ym9jemVrOyBFZG1vbiBDaHVuZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtob21lbmV0XSBhbHRlcm5hdGl2ZXMg dG8gLmhvbWUNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpUZWQgTGVtb24gPG1lbGxvbkBmdWd1ZS5jb208bWFpbHRvOm1l 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<6068.1466169439@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <6068.1466169439@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: Erik Kline Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:04:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Juliusz Chroboczek Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 21:04:35 -0000 > That's definitely a good point. Outlook should have a bug that the English > translation of "Re" is wrong. > > > (The right choice for Homenet, of course, is ".domus". Although, now > > that I think about it, RFC 1034 doesn't mention whether domain names > > are in the nominative or the locative, so perhaps we should also > > consider ".domo".) > > I'm open to this idea... I prefer domus. Of course, like the redefinition of what "arpa" stands for (see RFC referred to early), we could just decide that "home" stands for "Household or Medium-sized Entity" (or some other suitably entertaining and descriptive acronym) and then file the appropriate requesting paperwork. From nobody Fri Jun 17 14:29:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E79C12DB2D for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:29:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uAKeYu3ARJ5W for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BE4E12DA74 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u5HLTEfd014431; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:29:14 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 158FC61FA2; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:29:14 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id tKpNIeEZcsub; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:29:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (col75-1-78-194-40-74.fbxo.proxad.net [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A585761FA1; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:29:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:29:11 +0200 Message-ID: <8737obh5co.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:29:14 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57646BAA.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57646BAA.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57646BAA.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Michael Richardson Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 21:29:18 -0000 > Those who come from cultures that speak languages descended from older or > different roots might challenge the universality of that proposal. I strongly object to Sumerian cuneiform. > I don't think there is a correct answer to this. .local has worked, which is > the best we can hope for with whatever name we come up with. If i18n motivates > different names depending on the UI language, that will be a problem. If we > really think that the name shouldn't be in english, which is a position to > which I can certainly relate, it probably shouldn't be a word in any language. That's fine with me. But having different names depending on the locale is an absolutely horrible idea. (What should happen when a Homenet localised for Amharic merges with one that uses Tigrinya? Should the Homenet advertise two zones and duplicate everything within both? Or should it pick one dominant language according to the number of speakers? Please provide working code with your answer.) -- Juliusz From nobody Fri Jun 17 14:31:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E67E12DB3C for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:31:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EJt2hv7W-uva for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x235.google.com (mail-qk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC90A12D9FA for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id a186so98881963qkf.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:31:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=tP1+/BlZlNwkIZkN3oejW2BbcoctFyQPbViHkn+fH0Q=; b=NC3zq0gzduTHkQ1uyL73Us+h92E+xsnuO5Gq3vhw/QYlIKBT/Mbh2rryHdI7pHtPYT MKEL5QYU23HOa2wbjwNOEyLZidlgfpm0NKPsICgVRPz1ScmkZgFUobGrkX2UQxsc0Ha8 wlS12giAJfLY+oK14v2nLKJ08tudMhglOzeGTsHNjORsWZ4nwTmB8stNlzgHJJz+lmjN W+N2kS4l+rVsQ1QzwlseM/RhziyxMtD2+xfpkr6M7WtBYahF8u7/zcMIUBO0TpmtCs24 ZNOSPA3vTDIPcyXzeag3XI5OK9xCwMABStJTPWI/9bVZBdYFw0hAOHhseSo8sQrGiXcT 4xjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=tP1+/BlZlNwkIZkN3oejW2BbcoctFyQPbViHkn+fH0Q=; b=K5aTcijUuL3Ob1Dr/FwbADE6K5Y0CZ11H+KwD8bz49QUWvB9iDPnHdSG1nNbET9n6C ZZQc7kvrhMBSIHtuT9aOQtQvLywYe2DdEazev+Qht9L+e7RtYv9ugJgZO/iL4SpfFf2H XLR7zT60H+TUhoB4XzP3Mxv8I3xp19fWQowRPgIl6XM3n+5bs37EUJ8KT3Kab5ZpS5ip P/p0DL0/LQW9Gy04lOKJdiRsV//Wwy4wc6mwWTMgKwdM2gqpm2OXXy23yHqfPiyPmw1A Sy74Nk8HR5TzEHzP56fWPcj/Nt4cqJ0fKbMaZPF1PeCbyFlhAIa04b0lKAk0/xBRtnBd ZOdw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJuHimbW64W98m4T3oiiMrc85NPjW3hcNW9PIkYghNew7Hq9KVFffF926ZXu9CduQ== X-Received: by 10.237.50.199 with SMTP id z65mr5219247qtd.24.1466199089856; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:181:c003:1360:3474:5322:f5e7:ff34? ([2601:181:c003:1360:3474:5322:f5e7:ff34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q19sm6779795qtc.33.2016.06.17.14.31.27 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Suzanne Woolf In-Reply-To: <27316.1466193170@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:31:26 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3D5FA7D1-E9DF-4E5F-9A81-8B3218BD07A0@gmail.com> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> <7526.1466169795@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <11120.1466170772@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <27316.1466193170@obiwan.sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Edmon Chung , Ted Lemon , Juliusz Chroboczek Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 21:31:32 -0000 Hi, I=E2=80=99d like to gently suggest that if the long-running discussion = on the topic of special use names in DNSOP has taught us anything, = it=E2=80=99s that the behavior people would like to have from DNS = resolvers, users, etc. for a name is of primary importance. The choices = of name resolution protocol, format of a name in presentation and on the = wire, and other characteristics of the context for resolution are more = important than the specific string. The discussion so far, and RFC 7788 AFAICT, assume that homenet is = talking about names that are compatible with domain names. However, the = discussion has not been clear about exactly what conditions are assumed = around handling those names. What defines a special use domain name is how it is *used*. Without = details of how it=E2=80=99s to be used, it=E2=80=99s impossible to = determine characteristics for suitable strings, such as =E2=80=9Cmust be = human-friendly=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cdoesn=E2=80=99t matter if it=E2=80=99s= known to collide with another set of names/resolution context cues=E2=80=9D= or =E2=80=9Cmust result in a specific response when presented to DNS = resolvers.=E2=80=9D The answers to the questions in RFC 6761, Section 5, are intended to = constitute a description of how a proposed special use name is special = in its use. Without answers to those questions, it=E2=80=99s simply not = clear what=E2=80=99s special about the proposed names or what limits are = appropriate to put on strings that might be reserved for that use. Suzanne > On Jun 17, 2016, at 3:52 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Ted Lemon wrote: >=20 >> It's much better not to do this. I think that the model of hiding >> ".local" is wrong for just this reason. >=20 > Please explain more. Is it that I should be able to copy and paste = from the > UI to my command line? How is showing .local in the GUI important? From nobody Fri Jun 17 14:47:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1238812DBA5 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:47:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uKabJfpUDcwg for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E1B712DBA1 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u5HLl5qm016981; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:47:05 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E7261FA1; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:47:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id ToyV90_dDUVn; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:47:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (col75-1-78-194-40-74.fbxo.proxad.net [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 86EFD61F9D; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:47:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:47:04 +0200 Message-ID: <87ziqjfpyf.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Michael Richardson In-Reply-To: <6068.1466169439@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <6068.1466169439@obiwan.sandelman.ca> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 23:47:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57646FD9.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57646FD9.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57646FD9.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 21:47:08 -0000 >> - how does software running on my laptop, which just connected to an >> unknown network, find out what is the local translation of "home"? > It doesn't. It uses HNCP. Please describe exactly how my laptop (which doesn't run HNCP) finds out the right domain. Please describe how an HNCP router that joins an existing Homenet finds out the right domain. Please describe what happens when two equally-sized Homenets merge. Michael, trust me -- this is not something that we want to implement. -- Juliusz From nobody Fri Jun 17 15:00:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A65212DBCA for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:00:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eRH2rMuQbreN for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CD6012DB2F for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id f6so6299768lfg.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:00:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Lh0oSJznRWZWLb3wZKR6cE7sZWrMHS0UDGu/aiR8FBU=; b=M464067zE3N8F4BOxS6AptNRGMUgUowfuvNHDhQ9o2/GJl4AI++rXU1AknEHGhkpy2 Ol/6cdPR0wxYLfdmCgKkduO3C7nVdA95C9dqmhfxiGLVTsw52q6gdO/iyJPWEANee+8I P1oJWiKgV/jM/Ykp8iYtm26ulDkOZpeH47x+SoQp1pbWS0QlaLuP2rZjLj/4EiF+igoT cKH5baGpCfPCBmVPVcg5GmTLCdVbPaUt4UPrhKJPV9460lNrkAdBrKd+FMlgCwQum4kc Rqa/q3dPIGFvrcO/9yW9zdW839eLks8MVT6WbVAbqGePwk8fH7ma+6XFr/op4RqsPpZc U8Sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Lh0oSJznRWZWLb3wZKR6cE7sZWrMHS0UDGu/aiR8FBU=; b=hDPlGc2kTEl9H75Ei7JyjFbVFJ5D/q3uF25ebeK+J1E/y6br9+4m1gHboK8WO1ILla ZSswO8m83+h8rmDmzPwBWwWTfbe+f0A1s0DhnvYn5JM4LAPFjw68K9UhjT1iwWxQ1gBy +n2Dl5Q1ksY702XNiNWg0QRXKWgIXVUidcv5AueQnjFCYIHQKsLHtCgGNMKuKdsAevSL 3xmChQhN3+W2ehTQO6UWiaj0fmNy1ezXye4ji0aSTqGUEDEW1uJI7t5E9VoKpKTNy47v th6IEAEXVjCHMfdEltQq+PK7Fl/IWHVNRw2dWtNBuSj5QjAZkHobwJaa952xe3275QXl 0pTA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLGssjRAUqz+sGyjWlAElZHzSlrf7AIcgT3sNkL3W9IouO18a/xRlSHlXWcYYASjU2JcotCdIjqPUmj9w== X-Received: by 10.25.91.76 with SMTP id p73mr991416lfb.181.1466200849183; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:00:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.217.219 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:00:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <27316.1466193170@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> <7526.1466169795@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <11120.1466170772@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <27316.1466193170@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 18:00:09 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11411536c90ae00535807c1d Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET , Juliusz Chroboczek , Edmon Chung Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:00:53 -0000 --001a11411536c90ae00535807c1d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 You propose that .domus and .home both be possible presented names for the same object: the home network. Users will use many devices on the home network; each of these devices will have to display the same name. If the actual name is the same, this is easy. If the UI has to make it look like it's the same, this will be hard, and will be gotten wrong. Users will be expected to visit each others' homes. Settings in each home may be different. Yet printer.domus in home A will reference printer.home in home B, which will produce an unexpected error when that reference is used. The actual name of a thing should always be presented. Whether it's copy-and-pasteable is a UI detail, but if you are looking at a pointer, the pointer should always look the same if it points to the same object, no matter what device you are using. Using the same name for every homenet that doesn't have its own global name has the very nice quality that we don't have to do anything clever to make it work. That's why that's what I'm recommending. I get that it would be nicer to say .domus for homenets in the vatican, and .home for homenets in english-speaking countries, but that's harder to achieve, and would have to add a lot of value to be worth doing. As Andrew says, answering a slightly different question, we really don't want to have to do that. On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Ted Lemon wrote: > > model that the user forms will be wrong. If .home and .domus are > > I don't propose that they be the same. > > I'm suggesting that the HNCP will pick one or the other (or some other > translation) is picked as the single choice. > > > It's much better not to do this. I think that the model of hiding > > ".local" is wrong for just this reason. > > Please explain more. Is it that I should be able to copy and paste from the > UI to my command line? How is showing .local in the GUI important? > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > --001a11411536c90ae00535807c1d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You propose that .domus and .home both be possible present= ed names for the same object: the home network. =C2=A0 Users will use many = devices on the home network; each of these devices will have to display the= same name. =C2=A0 If the actual name is the same, this is easy. =C2=A0 If = the UI has to make it look like it's the same, this will be hard, and w= ill be gotten wrong.

Users will be expected to visit eac= h others' homes. =C2=A0 Settings in each home may be different. =C2=A0 = Yet printer.domus in home A will reference printer.home in home B, which wi= ll produce an unexpected error when that reference is used.

<= /div>
The actual name of a thing should always be presented. =C2=A0 Whe= ther it's copy-and-pasteable is a UI detail, but if you are looking at = a pointer, the pointer should always look the same if it points to the same= object, no matter what device you are using.

Usin= g the same name for every homenet that doesn't have its own global name= has the very nice quality that we don't have to do anything clever to = make it work. =C2=A0 That's why that's what I'm recommending. = =C2=A0 I get that it would be nicer to say .domus for homenets in the vatic= an, and .home for homenets in english-speaking countries, but that's ha= rder to achieve, and would have to add a lot of value to be worth doing. = =C2=A0 As Andrew says, answering a slightly different question, we really d= on't want to have to do that.
On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Michael Richar= dson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> = wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > model that the user forms will be wrong. If .home and .d= omus are

I don't propose that they be the same.

I'm suggesting that the HNCP will pick one or the other (or some other<= br> translation) is picked as the single choice.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > It's much better not to do this. I think that the mo= del of hiding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ".local" is wrong for just this reason.

Please explain more. Is it that I should be able to copy and paste f= rom the
UI to my command line?=C2=A0 How is showing .local in the GUI important?


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




--001a11411536c90ae00535807c1d-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 15:02:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E240A12DBCA for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:02:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ETB_TWyW9She for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22e.google.com (mail-lf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B104212D98C for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id q132so6249486lfe.3 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:02:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=f0i+xYg8RY9QVGAIFzarFVu+o/Yhvtf8qw8r1WrqzUQ=; b=mCOtwQazLfhJ/Mx/jEt9uTopukh75/vlDviHzhMFp1+ZopJzEifl4sRVWij+o4xzn9 Ap1axgd4GfwwaFS68NipOSi3+ivaw9fcBOp+oVJxeRadAqw+IVVQ/MrPym2DrVd+XWno axvwGqBE7xxTOqhAzkKyveNjWiKgSGm9MF6i1rVf3gyUEuh4DkryuAYN8MyQ43CXk8bc pM9hjnLlq5IB15x293N9kUiShjbvHxLLd6rPuzfyYp+45mnCc0VJjgmtAZJM1mppo9TT WTvf4hybNivk2udcVlSrP6mjGtEEPe09BmrZ2iKaIDxqq059XL0nbqpmTWTtFZaHoWee xh1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f0i+xYg8RY9QVGAIFzarFVu+o/Yhvtf8qw8r1WrqzUQ=; b=Zv/ni99BeaPCH9KxQjw9KCFe33n9PyDSUvkpemgmuscCa+3QLLAGOA4sWqXwcOSe0c i6wtUkyrzN+YfQgxpWyOTtEg0w6kVK2J75cSzlts9ViED7N5PnURE7oDSg6rLZ91WsSr z/2ZQtCVNuO6Wgyv83WHZGRhlWiEYXqqPAnA/RcBYnm4OdPzr4gq6UbzSJ+Mq1GTveT7 OcpFN8H6TZDkKTSF7QHgu/rarO2dfJAVsPuShfVMAM8dUZDP62oZ1GNygdemyqV5ZkWu KuxbcK4+Onre9T/CJXMFW008/1SnEAOhA9svgmiNJZlAMZjMUWaUYFGQki6Tdu21ij1s EBrw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLaegZzGp/ihS0PfFZDvE9dxLQMAsvte938fdeOjJl5gFhbcuityoFQEsjsBbbpYagerNbJJ9KcBvRtVA== X-Received: by 10.46.32.73 with SMTP id g70mr1202613ljg.28.1466200944949; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:02:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.217.219 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:01:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3D5FA7D1-E9DF-4E5F-9A81-8B3218BD07A0@gmail.com> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <102a01d1c82a$f1e1e530$d5a5af90$@registry.asia> <7526.1466169795@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <11120.1466170772@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <27316.1466193170@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <3D5FA7D1-E9DF-4E5F-9A81-8B3218BD07A0@gmail.com> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 18:01:45 -0400 Message-ID: To: Suzanne Woolf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142c0087e4cb40535808258 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , HOMENET , Edmon Chung , Juliusz Chroboczek Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:02:29 -0000 --001a1142c0087e4cb40535808258 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, exactly. Thanks for putting it so succinctly, Suzanne. :) On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 5:31 PM, Suzanne Woolf wrote: > Hi, > > I=E2=80=99d like to gently suggest that if the long-running discussion on= the > topic of special use names in DNSOP has taught us anything, it=E2=80=99s = that the > behavior people would like to have from DNS resolvers, users, etc. for a > name is of primary importance. The choices of name resolution protocol, > format of a name in presentation and on the wire, and other characteristi= cs > of the context for resolution are more important than the specific string= . > > The discussion so far, and RFC 7788 AFAICT, assume that homenet is talkin= g > about names that are compatible with domain names. However, the discussio= n > has not been clear about exactly what conditions are assumed around > handling those names. > > What defines a special use domain name is how it is *used*. Without > details of how it=E2=80=99s to be used, it=E2=80=99s impossible to determ= ine > characteristics for suitable strings, such as =E2=80=9Cmust be human-frie= ndly=E2=80=9D or > =E2=80=9Cdoesn=E2=80=99t matter if it=E2=80=99s known to collide with ano= ther set of > names/resolution context cues=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cmust result in a speci= fic response when > presented to DNS resolvers.=E2=80=9D > > The answers to the questions in RFC 6761, Section 5, are intended to > constitute a description of how a proposed special use name is special in > its use. Without answers to those questions, it=E2=80=99s simply not clea= r what=E2=80=99s > special about the proposed names or what limits are appropriate to put on > strings that might be reserved for that use. > > > > Suzanne > > > > On Jun 17, 2016, at 3:52 PM, Michael Richardson > wrote: > > > > > > Ted Lemon wrote: > > > >> It's much better not to do this. I think that the model of hiding > >> ".local" is wrong for just this reason. > > > > Please explain more. Is it that I should be able to copy and paste from > the > > UI to my command line? How is showing .local in the GUI important? > > --001a1142c0087e4cb40535808258 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, exactly. =C2=A0 Thanks for putting it so succinctly, = Suzanne. =C2=A0 :)

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 5:31 PM, Suzanne Woolf <= ;suzworldwide@g= mail.com> wrote:
Hi,

I=E2=80=99d like to gently suggest that if the long-running discussion on t= he topic of special use names in DNSOP has taught us anything, it=E2=80=99s= that the behavior people would like to have from DNS resolvers, users, etc= . for a name is of primary importance. The choices of name resolution proto= col, format of a name in presentation and on the wire, and other characteri= stics of the context for resolution are more important than the specific st= ring.

The discussion so far, and RFC 7788 AFAICT, assume that homenet is talking = about names that are compatible with domain names. However, the discussion = has not been clear about exactly what conditions are assumed around handlin= g those names.

What defines a special use domain name is how it is *used*. Without details= of how it=E2=80=99s to be used, it=E2=80=99s impossible to determine chara= cteristics for suitable strings, such as =E2=80=9Cmust be human-friendly=E2= =80=9D or =E2=80=9Cdoesn=E2=80=99t matter if it=E2=80=99s known to collide = with another set of names/resolution context cues=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cmust= result in a specific response when presented to DNS resolvers.=E2=80=9D
The answers to the questions in RFC 6761, Section 5, are intended to consti= tute a description of how a proposed special use name is special in its use= . Without answers to those questions, it=E2=80=99s simply not clear what=E2= =80=99s special about the proposed names or what limits are appropriate to = put on strings that might be reserved for that use.



Suzanne


> On Jun 17, 2016, at 3:52 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com= > wrote:
>
>> It's much better not to do this. I think that the model of hid= ing
>> ".local" is wrong for just this reason.
>
> Please explain more. Is it that I should be able to copy and paste fro= m the
> UI to my command line?=C2=A0 How is showing .local in the GUI importan= t?


--001a1142c0087e4cb40535808258-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 07:24:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54B012D0DD for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:23:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DA0uRnUm40df for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40B5712D0C1 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 327DE2009E for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B84C638BF for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:23:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: HOMENET In-Reply-To: <87ziqjfpyf.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <6068.1466169439@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87ziqjfpyf.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:23:52 -0400 Message-ID: <14830.1466432632@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:24:00 -0000 Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >>> - how does software running on my laptop, which just connected to an >>> unknown network, find out what is the local translation of "home"? >> It doesn't. It uses HNCP. > Please describe exactly how my laptop (which doesn't run HNCP) finds > out the right domain. Please describe how an HNCP router that joins an I think that it's in the DHCP. You could ignore it. DHCP/SearchPath is fraught with issues. AFAIK, ".local" is not used on the wire with mDNS. The .local is a clue from the end-user to the resolver that you should use mDNS to resolve the name. But, we aren't talking about mDNS, we are talking about names which are resolved using standard DNS mechanisms, probably via search-path like thing, which are split-horizon DNS and with return (mostly) ULA IPv6 names for parts which are (possibly) more than one hop away. We do need a special name with special treatment (whether it is localized or not) because we need to teach tools like SSH and HTTPS that the name "printer.home" can not be permanently bound to the same public key all the time. In particular, it needs to be qualified by the attachment point (probably DHCP Server's DUID is best is available). -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ From nobody Mon Jun 20 08:01:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED79E12D17A for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:01:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5D5kY11IXwON for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com (mail-qk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDDCE12D181 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id t127so43622874qkf.1 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:01:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=ln0hOJoPiUdSRGfTbHlQYo9F+OW8cqCqD35F9hYDnn0=; b=mxndTp8HfJfH06BOaFonoKFvC9qOHudnJsZ5oUnKerFJjC+wQz3hn27Rli06xJW0Yi Y04fXtdGbuvAgAWo9JYeh5aHtWJP37BCH5PcXCbuBe74DkPYmg2PdOolKRw6KATiR3Fu /5A3r08ciyoG7taogXZTqLoy07Ev/nQ9ZIVd6jM5R/irck58yaw2P+qOOeEBGobxE9T+ LfdTvS2aDzh3UAtRq4G2hNeiSdnu56DN9X/Fe8ZXXuNMDsw2hxcmIF0HpRfjCFcd679R LU+A2gY69r81KJs/1FhMBm5vE+siR2bjy01d0W3aAMS1vzOd3RUhM4vMkwkcJ49bwk0z z/Mg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=ln0hOJoPiUdSRGfTbHlQYo9F+OW8cqCqD35F9hYDnn0=; b=Us3m9PO8XYPE3isqZWTkPh+XKuBqLHndq+oQ9U/9kuAnfK/MC56C/LSq3v046+5qpi VtnYmj9UVYoWRT0fujks0fewycJZnjwb6mGvKgSgzYIH166/XI/OGyxaajyDtzBg6763 T3qgHkbWZJ8zPc9obb1af4KLyQU7BgMSVbd1KT3NTWYOvyJ5M5CdXRAI2PKDPKidcz/u W4+SaiHhzkHdvijXrgwx3JsBLbU3/ffbfcurnXwbhwxTnJAiITPdzUtnBT/FbMULf2P5 OR6STL82mFMgiDYvgDPrwHR8DhgU/eHUldYmsj8Mwazx2Ex4wv4P/W4iToMlrriJNfoW K9vA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKoE4wM3E+yIAQChjfeyIbwo5sKQA5r+bz98L2bUEhfqU4G9xb1EAclLsK7FEHJTg== X-Received: by 10.200.50.37 with SMTP id x34mr22376864qta.42.1466434903953; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.131.118.123] ([173.38.117.71]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z94sm20104215qtc.49.2016.06.20.08.01.42 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3825C332-55F2-4A19-8877-C829479913D2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 From: Ralph Droms In-Reply-To: <14830.1466432632@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:01:40 -0400 Message-Id: References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <6068.1466169439@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87ziqjfpyf.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <14830.1466432632@obiwan.sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: HOMENET Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:01:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3825C332-55F2-4A19-8877-C829479913D2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Jun 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM 6/20/16, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >>>> - how does software running on my laptop, which just connected to = an >>>> unknown network, find out what is the local translation of "home"? >=20 >>> It doesn't. It uses HNCP. >=20 >> Please describe exactly how my laptop (which doesn't run HNCP) finds >> out the right domain. Please describe how an HNCP router that joins = an >=20 > I think that it's in the DHCP. You could ignore it. > DHCP/SearchPath is fraught with issues. >=20 > AFAIK, ".local" is not used on the wire with mDNS. > The .local is a clue from the end-user to the resolver that you should > use mDNS to resolve the name. wireshark seems to indicate .local is included on the wire with mDNS = requests. >=20 > But, we aren't talking about mDNS, we are talking about names which = are > resolved using standard DNS mechanisms, probably via search-path like = thing, > which are split-horizon DNS and with return (mostly) ULA IPv6 names = for parts > which are (possibly) more than one hop away. Is this architecture documented somewhere? I ask because I'm a little = surprised by: * standard DNS mechanisms * split-horizon DNS * (mostly) ULA IPv6 I'll admit to not having paid close attention and I might have missed = this discussion. And telling me to reread Ted's homenet naming = architecture document is a fine response. >=20 > We do need a special name with special treatment (whether it is = localized or > not) because we need to teach tools like SSH and HTTPS that the name > "printer.home" can not be permanently bound to the same public key all = the > time. In particular, it needs to be qualified by the attachment point > (probably DHCP Server's DUID is best is available). Personally, I think there will be broader scope to the special treatment = of homenet-relative names, but won't know for sure until the details are = nailed down. - Ralph >=20 >=20 > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh = networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network = architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on = rails [ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet --Apple-Mail=_3825C332-55F2-4A19-8877-C829479913D2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXaAVVAAoJEINeeBNmFjV5vw8P/0s8D3qfVD4T9NNi0A8pDyxK 9TDOy2GhcT089po8rIlabpIfFD2FE5YJw7ndminZgGr1VMIR+RcdKpao7uBG+4/a CLHs7yYrFYJEQxs7G8hbKQ1v2+b3cEptnDYKhU8STLkq+FWkuTMgemYEuyJmnlOt DpWDTBgvWfU/expfM0BX8o0d0tt4YJmU5XmVQCc6v1VA0JdKzWEd+gknojV1FyvX P7bDBJSJ8tRkAnUdB4ss8iTM441KLUABkW8xAsRj5bh2w8T02AmAkRiuxJqB5v0z KFSMptaPKkY32sZSi3vCgM1MaiNe3Q08kwF9Qm5func/VXwRw+WVqCbWtaMQO+I0 Qc4w1aisOv5ZlOcnDK52yH4ePcRgN39pIUGvAqt7LeXS8DwYGZPNIVM9b2qwUscH 9mzoNfaf0vMY/8siydRe5WiSvKIknohvGQZsbr2XsHgkIOF2wqC2+33u3+kBrlqN GFhIQZkm5t4idnWRk0CWXuttWkOvq7HxDl05X53VKYpE6IhdB5MpGKjblsDcWbkh rqPJc+WAU+I1jh0VrATx5LqLMcFt9QxKiOq7gUtoNXBNUmLT0Eu8EQDjBM5/3U7X hiBO0SDpDghFEj4Om8UGJKSgyRTJ2GvUw5n1rzaKGaM2ENTdk/dCjom7ZGdC2yTF shRfcfDfJMKiELYs55gN =kLm/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_3825C332-55F2-4A19-8877-C829479913D2-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 08:28:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6992612D186 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:28:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.626 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.626 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xDWeBpD4tHQw for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.denic.de (office.denic.de [81.91.160.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A95F712D0CC for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.denic.de (mailout-6.osl.denic.de [10.122.34.32]) by office.denic.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9631FC6A for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:27:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from x27.adm.denic.de (x28.fra2.if.denic.de [10.122.64.17]) by office.denic.de with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) id 1bF17B-0004Lo-4j; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:27:53 +0200 Received: from localhost by x27.adm.denic.de with local id 1bF17A-0001Nh-Rg; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:27:52 +0200 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:27:52 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20160620152752.GA3136@x28.adm.denic.de> Mail-Followup-To: homenet@ietf.org References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <20160617010044.GA22195@mx2.yitter.info> <4e794ce6-2605-a0d2-c0e7-fe44bb149794@bellis.me.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4e794ce6-2605-a0d2-c0e7-fe44bb149794@bellis.me.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Sender: Peter Koch Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] RFC 7788-bis X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:28:03 -0000 On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 09:37:06AM +0100, Ray Bellis wrote: > As for #2, yeah, that's hard, but it seems ICANN won't do anything about > ".home" because of #1 anyway, but they seemed stalled on outright > rejecting it and have said (AFAICR) that an RFC 6761 registration would > allow them to reject (and refund) those applications. which is even another reason for the IETF not to step into this particular trap. -Peter From nobody Mon Jun 20 08:40:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479DE12D1DE for ; 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Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:40:51 GMT Received: from xch-aln-016.cisco.com (173.36.7.26) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:40:50 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-016.cisco.com ([173.36.7.26]) by XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com ([173.36.7.26]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:40:50 -0500 From: "Ralph Droms (rdroms)" To: HOMENET Thread-Topic: "mDNS proxy" in RFC 7788 Thread-Index: AQHRywof/F6j1C05tE6MvnTXjnFFhA== Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:40:50 +0000 Message-ID: <9BF7359D-C22B-4A85-A9B2-5035BA1AE37F@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.131.118.100] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_31124883-ABEF-4658-8482-A6765D6BE3E3"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Wicinski Tim , "suzworldwide@gmail.com" Subject: [homenet] "mDNS proxy" in RFC 7788 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:40:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_31124883-ABEF-4658-8482-A6765D6BE3E3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii While I was reviewing RFC 7788 because of the .home issue, I ran some = other text that I think needs to be clarified. Section 7.4 refers to a "Multicast DNS Proxy", with a citation of RFC = 6762. The problem here is that RFC 6762 does not provide a definition = of "Multicast DNS Proxy Servers" (coincidentally, in section 7.4 of RFC = 6762). Personally, I believe that RFC 6762 is referring to the "Bonjour = Sleep Proxy" service [http://multicastdns.org]. If that understanding = is correct, then RFC 7788 should not be mandating the deployment and = operation of "mDNS proxy" at all. If RFC 7788 is referring to some other "mDNS proxy server", e.g., the = hybrid proxy service described in draft-ietf-dnssd-hybrid-03, then RFC = 7788 should explicitly reference that other proxy service, presumably = with a pointer to some defining RFC. - Ralph --Apple-Mail=_31124883-ABEF-4658-8482-A6765D6BE3E3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXaA6CAAoJEINeeBNmFjV5ySgP/1iREoepXkdTQLS0tOhhjs20 LQKfbsPQq5TTcRkf4B28wxlEg/oABfYgdqOl+rDkgVPBBy7aRh1iNM3xtSji4Fep ilz4EJqEIpExLCzaomSpluo669UZqmMNGKhpa3ViFtvuN7+XPxp6EvBFfBp9JyWH OZAEsQUUIusnv1+phGjgfqcbkIwWjWN7ESfOtJldTJIQUiFyLPEliMrVhWtzArQC jBpnXP5Xv8pSzhlV9tLFK9egXqPBPBoW8UD8peoXILLDR4DZjr9MWBF7bvKEV9QX W8uZylD6HUzwcOUT7CbbBmlW7/k3AczAtFuePLJkFyXzZmh8PygtwzBDa2lyEM6b Sd9WnFvRJ4hMN0ckw2Pd4bB4dGJF+a1FtaZjy4EYhT2SDG8WsXO4HEcSwwpxPzMo xvFz3mJxw1/+F17bHi5b3BFTuxyD5xT7ns/eaD7TnCBHaL2tMypgt2I86/hBubhI +xSD0ynK6g0RgHlpllCWj+eY2rbyTPfTVNiJxT8d6lYQh7z3NXf7AzLiprz+wtJ1 2iBj0SZEyUeJWX3pdTiHU5Lxjmh0Met+cOWIowhXGreDfXsVxPwkOfYsXyB5GX/g mvsrG61460xjnqXkoLNeLye/wBlOhUWAI7h0YjTCC7YE4k1eQKww4vcJae81ky21 XYz1iUA+6PSlpTQIBCHl =9vYK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_31124883-ABEF-4658-8482-A6765D6BE3E3-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 10:39:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6C512D605 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:39:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id icKhmh_36L6J for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7673A12D606 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u5KHdjLH010138 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:39:45 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u5KHdj9f017962; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:39:45 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27EE261F9D; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:39:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id U0W4uStLMOrp; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:39:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AFDCE61FA2; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:39:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1bF3Aj-0004QS-Dt; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:39:41 +0200 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:39:41 +0200 Message-ID: <7i8txzpxnm.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: homenet@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:39:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:39:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57682A61.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! 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B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org Subject: [homenet] Babel Towers mesh network now runs HNCP X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 17:39:50 -0000 Here, at Babel towers, our intern Dorine has almost finished reconfiguring our permanent mesh network to use HNCP instead of AHCP. It is somewhat fragmentary right now, and uses the 5GHz band only, we'll see how well HNCP works when we've deployed more routers and set up a parallel mesh on 2.4GHz. We'll then add to the confusion with a few routers running shncpd. You can follow Dorine's progress live on BabelWeb: http://babelweb.wifi.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr:8080/ This is a big relief for me, as I find it painful to work on shncpd without a permanent testbed. -- Juliusz From nobody Mon Jun 20 12:35:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35C512D6A9 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:35:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g3O6Ue9T13Hs for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44C5112D6A6 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12A92009E for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:43:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDFCA638BF for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:35:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson to: HOMENET In-Reply-To: <14830.1466432632@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <76ed7404-35ff-9cc8-262b-d5785595465c@isc.org> <4598.1466104881@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87porgafsq.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <6068.1466169439@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87ziqjfpyf.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <14830.1466432632@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] alternatives to .home X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:35:41 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Michael Richardson wrote: > AFAIK, ".local" is not used on the wire with mDNS. The .local is a > clue from the end-user to the resolver that you should use mDNS to > resolve the name. I stand corrected: it's on the wire. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBV2hFgYCLcPvd0N1lAQJIOQgAsZ+1g5auZN0y+M8zAZiTIzwdzwm7tjVu NC2KId8y0N4w7Yk8bPd69RE8xbF8xvFjosJ3Kti4+1U4oCmpM0jBkFqIbqJIsvkt Qw8WL6avl4dvUWUMDmprjIHCzDgcdefbJKx71ZZf1uiOolbATilwZdNiHAgnPFMo DfStWtjQ4zMjWsjexgeVoloi68v+akkmIAQTJjzJRh9goDwxQXrsU4oG8IhqcpHI bHlzCJEpmqaIRZILJD8IF+VdqNRWMIC40XDzVoHsnW5lhWVQThAHvOYhd/wuYSxR /syC8UVoWjzEvt2F7Gk+vveyf3Hz1wznc5+9nmYd1fu5pr/Bz2a+Ew== =SoK+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jun 21 07:54:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C0712B030 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 07:54:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e9tpzxrJ2sdb for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 07:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.portfast.net (hydrogen.portfast.net [188.246.200.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBF2D1288B8 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 07:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [46.227.151.81] (port=65110 helo=rays-mbp.local) by hydrogen.portfast.net ([188.246.200.2]:465) with esmtpsa (fixed_plain:ray@bellis.me.uk) (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1bFN4I-0005YU-Qj (Exim 4.72) for homenet@ietf.org (return-path ); Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:54:22 +0100 To: HOMENET From: Ray Bellis Message-ID: <572cf801-2643-dba0-a05b-8f6afc7d013b@bellis.me.uk> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:54:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] Homenet WG session in Berlin - agenda / logistics X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:54:28 -0000 The Homenet WG session has been provisionally scheduled for 14:00h on Monday 18th July. Please send requests for session slots to the Chairs. We've only requested a 1h30 meeting slot this time, with the expectation that the Naming Architecture will again be the primary area for discussion. For those that end up presenting, please get your slides to us by 14:00h on Sunday 17th *at the latest*. thanks, Ray From nobody Tue Jun 21 09:50:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6DF12D1EA for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:50:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.728 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.728 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nbNpgFfv4gAB for ; 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Received: from relay4.apple.com (relay4.apple.com [17.128.113.87]) by mail-in6.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id 2B.87.19505.D6079675; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:50:53 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11973e15-f79876d000004c31-c4-5769706d870b Received: from koseret (koseret.apple.com [17.151.62.39]) (using TLS with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay4.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 51.E9.07991.D6079675; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.99.14] ([50.0.69.63]) by koseret.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.37.0 64bit (built Nov 11 2015)) with ESMTPSA id <0O940027ZS4TSI40@koseret.apple.com> for homenet@ietf.org; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Sender: cheshire@apple.com Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: <9BF7359D-C22B-4A85-A9B2-5035BA1AE37F@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 09:50:55 -0700 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <854449A1-996A-402D-B588-4A1F66D5D196@apple.com> References: <9BF7359D-C22B-4A85-A9B2-5035BA1AE37F@cisco.com> To: "Ralph Droms (rdroms)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrLLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYrptbkBlusGGjqcX7RYdYHBg9liz5 yRTAGMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CV8XHDQuaCLcIVzx8tY29gPM/fxcjJISFgItH9rYEZwhaTuHBv PVsXIxeHkMBeRonNB6+zwhR9nbqUESLRzyTx4M10VginnUni8PatLCBVwgJSEq9WfgYaxcHB LKAuMWVKLkiYV0BPYvLRBjaIEn2JCfM2MoHYbAJaEi8+XwGLcwrYSqw7OBssziKgKnHxz352 EJtZoExi8/8GKFtb4sm7C6wQM20kjr//B9YrBGR3X34FZosI6Eoc+nQL6mhZiScnF7GA3Ckh sIRN4vjzm4wTGEVmIZw3C8l5s5CsWMDIvIpRKDcxM0c3M89ML7GgICdVLzk/dxMjKLyn24nu YDyzyuoQowAHoxIPb4VhRrgQa2JZcWXuIUZpDhYlcd7aLKCQQHpiSWp2ampBalF8UWlOavEh RiYOTqkGxqt3u18fMTutFLZi+w2lSeetpmwOMujZdqJJ5/EOhQ26jB/8///syYm2TYvT6Vf6 xPFCy7SpdSl7ULH58b23fd8fFb/Jt6i8aMImKT1rybklOiIPX0YYL3ppluD5Jbha9ODXAJmY Xz/WnDv1wGHig6jrJ1ckuCQu6Nnu37b/y6LpokU+1xOF1JVYijMSDbWYi4oTAcMAQPJQAgAA X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OXTe3IDPc4PEeI4v3iw6xODB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr4+OGhcwFW4Qrnj9axt7AeJ6/i5GTQ0LAROLr1KWMELaYxIV7 69m6GLk4hAT6mSQevJnOCuG0M0kc3r6VBaRKWEBK4tXKz8xdjBwczALqElOm5IKEeQX0JCYf bWCDKNGXmDBvIxOIzSagJfHi8xWwOKeArcS6g7PB4iwCqhIX/+xnB7GZBcokNv9vgLK1JZ68 u8AKMdNG4vj7f2C9QkB29+VXYLaIgK7EoU+3WCGOlpV4cnIRywRGwVkIF81CctEsJFMXMDKv YhQoSs1JrDTRSywoyEnVS87P3cQICseGwvAdjP+WWR1iFOBgVOLhrTDMCBdiTSwrrsw9xCjB wawkwvs0LzNciDclsbIqtSg/vqg0J7X4EGMy0C8TmaVEk/OBsZJXEm9oYmJgYmxsZmxsbmJO mrCSOK9GO9BWgfTEktTs1NSC1CKYLUwcnFINjHJ8Vla+4g8rTzeGvePTfHEiemXPJQ3h5QFa Pg+CP9tkRHftST3FdOTlP+X4S302D7nvTzuz883e9qtuFTaGG1Za9Pc8SpZy3jLHr+aTbbx0 gZRsgJ/v+4b108P2Hjphen3OkrXP7nFpiFyLu8CfPUmi+P/qjwv+rni7e1XgtKdyp+4dqZKM WanEUpyRaKjFXFScCADx7gdyiwIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: Wicinski Tim , HOMENET , "suzworldwide@gmail.com" Subject: Re: [homenet] "mDNS proxy" in RFC 7788 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:50:55 -0000 On 20 Jun 2016, at 08:40, Ralph Droms (rdroms) wrote: > While I was reviewing RFC 7788 because of the .home issue, I ran some = other text that I think needs to be clarified. >=20 > Section 7.4 refers to a "Multicast DNS Proxy", with a citation of RFC = 6762. The problem here is that RFC 6762 does not provide a definition = of "Multicast DNS Proxy Servers" (coincidentally, in section 7.4 of RFC = 6762). Personally, I believe that RFC 6762 is referring to the "Bonjour = Sleep Proxy" service [http://multicastdns.org]. If that understanding = is correct, then RFC 7788 should not be mandating the deployment and = operation of "mDNS proxy" at all. >=20 > If RFC 7788 is referring to some other "mDNS proxy server", e.g., the = hybrid proxy service described in draft-ietf-dnssd-hybrid-03, then RFC = 7788 should explicitly reference that other proxy service, presumably = with a pointer to some defining RFC. I am also unclear on what RFC 7788 means by the term =E2=80=9CmDNS = proxy=E2=80=9D. When RFC 6762 talks about a Multicast DNS Proxy Server it=E2=80=99s = referring to something that answers Multicast DNS queries on behalf of = other devices. It doesn=E2=80=99t say this explicitly (because at the = time I hadn=E2=80=99t realised there might be any other kind of proxy) = but it=E2=80=99s implied by the context where the term is used: ... there could be more than one proxy on the network giving Multicast DNS answers on behalf of some other host (e.g., because that other host is currently asleep and is not itself responding to queries). I can think of three sub-classes of this kind of proxy: 1. Sleep Proxy, answering for sleeping devices. 2. Legacy Proxy, answering for devices that offer services but don=E2=80=99= t implement Multicast DNS themselves (as implemented by the =E2=80=9Cdns-s= d -P=E2=80=9D command; useful a decade ago, less so now). 3. Redundant Proxy. When critical network configuration information is = made available through Multicast DNS records, having multiple redundant = sources of that information for reliability purposes might be useful. Now, the Hybrid Proxy introduces a new kind of proxy that I did not = anticipate when RFC 6762 was written -- instead of a proxy that answers = on behalf of other devices, a proxy that issues queries on behalf of = other devices. This kind of proxy is not mentioned at all in RFC 6762. Stuart Cheshire From nobody Thu Jun 23 18:33:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612A312D648 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 18:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mMiGpO2OlwEO for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 18:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [IPv6:2001:1900:3001:11::31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BCB812D189 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 18:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 74F1BB80D98; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 18:33:25 -0700 (PDT) To: markus.stenberg@iki.fi, cyrus@openwrt.org, pierre.pfister@darou.fr, suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com, terry.manderson@icann.org, ray@bellis.me.uk, mark@townsley.net X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20160624013325.74F1BB80D98@rfc-editor.org> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 18:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org, rdroms.ietf@gmail.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [homenet] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7788 (4718) X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 01:33:28 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7788, "Home Networking Control Protocol". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7788&eid=4718 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Ralph Droms Section: GLOBAL Original Text ------------- 7.4. Multicast DNS Proxy The designated Multicast DNS (mDNS) [RFC6762] proxy on a Common Link is elected based on the capabilities described in Section 4. [...] The elected router MUST provide an mDNS proxy on the given link and announce it as described in Section 8. [...] 8. Naming and Service Discovery [...] Each HNCP router SHOULD provide and announce an auto-generated or user-configured name for each internal Common Link (Section 6.1) for which it is the designated DHCPv4, stateful DHCPv6 server, mDNS proxy, or for which it provides forward or reverse DNS services on behalf of connected devices. [...] 10.1. HNCP-Version TLV [...] M-capability: Priority value used for electing the on-link mDNS [RFC6762] proxy. It MUST be set to 0 if the router is not capable of proxying mDNS, otherwise it SHOULD be set to 4 but MAY be set to any value from 1 to 7 to indicate a non-default priority Corrected Text -------------- 7.4. Multicast DNS Hybrid Proxy The designated Multicast DNS (mDNS) [RFC6762] Hybrid Proxy [draft-ietf-dnssd-hybrid-03] on a Common Link is elected based on the capabilities described in Section 4. [...] The elected router MUST provide an mDNS Hybrid Proxy on the given link and announce it as described in Section 8. [...] 8. Naming and Service Discovery [...] Each HNCP router SHOULD provide and announce an auto-generated or user-configured name for each internal Common Link (Section 6.1) for which it is the designated DHCPv4, stateful DHCPv6 server, mDNS Hybrid Proxy, or for which it provides forward or reverse DNS services on behalf of connected devices. [...] 10.1. HNCP-Version TLV [...] M-capability: Priority value used for electing the on-link mDNS Hybrid Proxy. It MUST be set to 0 if the router is not capable of providing an mDNS Hybrid Proxy service, otherwise it SHOULD be set to 4 but MAY be set to any value from 1 to 7 to indicate a non-default priority Notes ----- RFC 7788 refers to "Multicast DNS (mDNS) proxy" and gives a citation for RFC 6762. RFC 6762, "Multicast DNS," defines multicast DNS and mentions (without an explicit definition) a "Multicast DNS Proxy" service. This proxy service is also known as "Bonjour Sleep Proxy" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonjour_Sleep_Proxy] However, the intent of RFC 7788 is to specify the operation and advertisement of the multicast DNS Hybrid Proxy Service, as defined in draft-ietf-dnssd-hybrid-03, "Hybrid Unicast/Multicast DNS-Based Service Discovery." This errata corrects the mentions of "mDNS proxy" in RFC 7788 to "Hybrid Proxy." draft-ietf-dnssd-hybrid-03 should also be added to the Normative References. Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC7788 (draft-ietf-homenet-hncp-10) -------------------------------------- Title : Home Networking Control Protocol Publication Date : April 2016 Author(s) : M. Stenberg, S. Barth, P. Pfister Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Home Networking Area : Internet Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Fri Jun 24 09:05:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07ED212DCD8; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:00:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.24.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160624160052.10933.71532.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:00:52 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: homenet@ietf.org, terry.manderson@icann.org Subject: [homenet] homenet - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 96 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:00:56 -0000 Dear Ray Bellis, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. homenet Session 1 (1:30:00) Monday, Afternoon Session I 1400-1530 Room Name: Potsdam I size: 300 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Home Networking Area Name: Internet Area Session Requester: Ray Bellis Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 170 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: v6ops intarea dnsop dnssd 6man sunset4 pcp mif bier anima softwire dhc mptcp babel Second Priority: roll dprive isis opsec rtgarea rtgwg dane spring dbound Third Priority: manet nfvrg Special Requests: ---------------------------------------------------------