From nobody Mon Jul 3 06:47:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7641812EA53; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 06:47:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: homenet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149908963144.3962.13782174256174431167@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 06:47:11 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-02.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 13:47:11 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Home Networking of the IETF. Title : Homenet profile of the Babel routing protocol Author : Juliusz Chroboczek Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-02.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2017-07-03 Abstract: This document defines the subset of the Babel routing protocol [RFC6126] and its extensions that a Homenet router must implement, as well as the interactions between HNCP [RFC7788] and Babel. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 3 15:14:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6676D13169F; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 15:14:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: homenet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149912008837.15878.17501341783026418076@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 15:14:48 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-08.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 22:14:48 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Home Networking of the IETF. Title : Special Use Domain '.home.arpa' Authors : Pierre Pfister Ted Lemon Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-dot-08.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2017-07-03 Abstract: This document specifies the behavior that is expected from the Domain Name System with regard to DNS queries for names ending with '.home.arpa.', and designates this domain as a special-use domain name. 'home.arpa' is designated for non-unique use in residential home networks. Home Networking Control Protocol (HNCP) is updated to use the '.home.arpa' domain instead of '.home'. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-dot/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-dot-08 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-homenet-dot-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-homenet-dot-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 3 16:04:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E8C412F5DB; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 16:04:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: homenet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149912307908.15924.6738022233028636034@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 16:04:39 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 23:04:39 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Home Networking of the IETF. Title : Special Use Domain '.home.arpa' Authors : Pierre Pfister Ted Lemon Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2017-07-03 Abstract: This document specifies the behavior that is expected from the Domain Name System with regard to DNS queries for names ending with '.home.arpa.', and designates this domain as a special-use domain name. 'home.arpa' is designated for non-unique use in residential home networks. Home Networking Control Protocol (HNCP) is updated to use the '.home.arpa' domain instead of '.home'. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-dot/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jul 4 02:32:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC76131CA1 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 02:32:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xR2AYaDnOjS0 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 02:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [199.6.1.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33AC112EC06 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 02:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E06B24AE08 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 09:32:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67FA6160045 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 09:32:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D7B16007A for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 09:32:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id BYDId88eT4OY for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 09:32:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rays-mbp.local (unknown [46.227.151.81]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3A24160045 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 09:32:45 +0000 (UTC) To: HOMENET From: Ray Bellis Message-ID: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 10:32:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 09:32:53 -0000 Given the relatively large number of changes in this document based on Suzanne's review and my own, I'm starting a *one week* WGLC on this document before it gets pushed back out to our AD again. There was very little response to the last WGLC so there are concerns over whether it has WG consensus. *Please* read this version, and comment, even if it's to say "I have no comments, please go ahead and publish". NB: the particular string applied for (".home.arpa") is not up for discussion again. We've been there, done that. thanks, Ray --8<--8<-- A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Home Networking of the IETF. Title : Special Use Domain '.home.arpa' Authors : Pierre Pfister Ted Lemon Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2017-07-03 Abstract: This document specifies the behavior that is expected from the Domain Name System with regard to DNS queries for names ending with '.home.arpa.', and designates this domain as a special-use domain name. 'home.arpa' is designated for non-unique use in residential home networks. Home Networking Control Protocol (HNCP) is updated to use the '.home.arpa' domain instead of '.home'. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-dot/ --8<--8<-- From nobody Wed Jul 5 08:47:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F8713164D for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 08:46:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rrTRN4PwtIps for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 08:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpb1.bt.com (smtpb1.bt.com [62.7.242.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D5C6131631 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 08:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EVMHT03-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net (193.113.108.56) by EVMED04-UKBR.bt.com (10.216.161.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.319.2; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:46:52 +0100 Received: from rew09926dag07d.domain1.systemhost.net (10.55.202.46) by EVMHT03-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net (193.113.108.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.342.0; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:46:54 +0100 Received: from rew09926dag07b.domain1.systemhost.net (10.55.202.38) by rew09926dag07d.domain1.systemhost.net (10.55.202.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:46:53 +0100 Received: from rew09926dag07b.domain1.systemhost.net ([fe80::3597:bc94:cdb8:9d49]) by rew09926dag07b.domain1.systemhost.net ([fe80::3597:bc94:cdb8:9d49%12]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:46:53 +0100 From: To: Thread-Topic: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 Thread-Index: AQHS9KiNFmmr+7ath0Wsc7CuaKi+/KJFYfOA Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 15:46:52 +0000 Message-ID: <1cf7a5f37c5242a9bf3d487d26627e2f@rew09926dag07b.domain1.systemhost.net> References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> In-Reply-To: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.202.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 15:47:00 -0000 Hey, Looking for some thought from you guys. As an operator with millions of dev= ices using .home in their Residential Gateway CPE, Im interested, does/shou= ld/could this draft provide some recommendations about how to migrate its C= PE from ".home" to ".home.arpa" ? Mal -----Original Message----- From: homenet [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ray Bellis Sent: 04 July 2017 10:33 To: HOMENET Subject: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 Given the relatively large number of changes in this document based on Suza= nne's review and my own, I'm starting a *one week* WGLC on this document be= fore it gets pushed back out to our AD again. There was very little response to the last WGLC so there are concerns over = whether it has WG consensus. *Please* read this version, and comment, even if it's to say "I have no com= ments, please go ahead and publish". NB: the particular string applied for (".home.arpa") is not up for discussi= on again. We've been there, done that. thanks, Ray --8<--8<-- A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Home Networking of the IETF. Title : Special Use Domain '.home.arpa' Authors : Pierre Pfister Ted Lemon Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2017-07-03 Abstract: This document specifies the behavior that is expected from the Domain Name System with regard to DNS queries for names ending with '.home.arpa.', and designates this domain as a special-use domain name. 'home.arpa' is designated for non-unique use in residential home networks. Home Networking Control Protocol (HNCP) is updated to use the '.home.arpa' domain instead of '.home'. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-dot/ --8<--8<-- _______________________________________________ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From nobody Wed Jul 5 09:21:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD96131D6D for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 09:21:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mathemainzel.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XIbKJXt2tciT for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 09:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx26lb.world4you.com (mx26lb.world4you.com [81.19.149.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A342E131BBF for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 09:21:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mathemainzel.info; s=dkim11; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=eZk1DdyDxvekBtusscD5DJxv7u9WQwKmM+BwUFUpo4k=; b=kejgHKR4CVSl/NRxWEtyxYUa1eboJZk5pSsGJRTDdHcXqZauPsBOSe/Alnuf4rB3A9vVbzcyKC0l8hB62gFkgWeJUZKI2UwEX6xCWS8vlEnltBqszJzNYT138BsLVYpwuFfl1xkRWVqwkEk2JLbeGyE3Gv1goa7HRhi2j6cwA+U=; Received: from [90.146.55.206] (helo=home.mail) by mx26lb.world4you.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dSn2w-00014j-BC for homenet@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 18:20:58 +0200 Message-ID: <595D11E9.6080906@mathemainzel.info> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 18:20:57 +0200 From: "Walter H." Organization: Home User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (UNIX; U; Cray X-MP/48; en-US; rv:2.70) Gecko/20110929 Communicator/7.20 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> In-Reply-To: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms090504020807020405030509" X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-AV-Do-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 90.146.55.206 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: Walter.H@mathemainzel.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mx26lb.world4you.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 16:21:04 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090504020807020405030509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One thing I have to comment to ".home.arpa", as I have changed any=20 device used in my residental home network to use ".home.arpa" instead of ".local" or ".home", but I noticed one thing = in connection with BIND (I'm using just simple DNS with BIND) I'm using DDNS and my router has there the dynamic master zones: lets say "ddns.mynet.home.arpa" for forward DNS and "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" for reverse DNS; on the second running DNS (also running BIND) which is just a VM I could define there just a forward zone like this: zone "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" IN { type forward; forwarders { 192.168.0.1; }; forward only; }; but with the forward zone "ddns.mynet.home.arpa" this doen't work, and I = don't know if there are any restrictions which shouldn't be in BIND ... the reason for just defining a forward zone instead of slave zone on the = second DNS is a timing thing: at the moment a device gets registrated on the master DNS by DHCP,=20 requests to the second DNS just get forwarded to the master and so get an reply, but with a slave=20 zone requests to the second DNS get resolved a longer time later ... and this MUST work with ".home.arpa" the same way as with=20 "168.192.in-addr.arpa" ... these statements: disable-empty-zone "HOME.ARPA"; disable-empty-zone "168.192.IN-ADDR.ARPA"; work both; or do I have to give this: disable-empty-zone "MYNET.HOME.ARPA"; in order to work properly with forward zones? Thanks, Walter On 04.07.2017 11:32, Ray Bellis wrote: > Given the relatively large number of changes in this document based on > Suzanne's review and my own, I'm starting a *one week* WGLC on this > document before it gets pushed back out to our AD again. > > There was very little response to the last WGLC so there are concerns > over whether it has WG consensus. > > *Please* read this version, and comment, even if it's to say "I have no= > comments, please go ahead and publish". > > NB: the particular string applied for (".home.arpa") is not up for > discussion again. We've been there, done that. > > thanks, > > Ray > > --8<--8<-- > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the Home Networking of the IETF. > > Title : Special Use Domain '.home.arpa' > Authors : Pierre Pfister > Ted Lemon > Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09.txt > Pages : 9 > Date : 2017-07-03 > > Abstract: > This document specifies the behavior that is expected from the Doma= in > Name System with regard to DNS queries for names ending with > '.home.arpa.', and designates this domain as a special-use domain > name. 'home.arpa' is designated for non-unique use in residential > home networks. Home Networking Control Protocol (HNCP) is updated = to > use the '.home.arpa' domain instead of '.home'. > --------------ms090504020807020405030509 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKBDCC BOgwggPQoAMCAQICDkgbagkTvYAkyl0i8BTzMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMEwxIDAeBgNVBAsT F0dsb2JhbFNpZ24gUm9vdCBDQSAtIFIzMRMwEQYDVQQKEwpHbG9iYWxTaWduMRMwEQYDVQQD EwpHbG9iYWxTaWduMB4XDTE2MDYxNTAwMDAwMFoXDTI0MDYxNTAwMDAwMFowXTELMAkGA1UE BhMCQkUxGTAXBgNVBAoTEEdsb2JhbFNpZ24gbnYtc2ExMzAxBgNVBAMTKkdsb2JhbFNpZ24g UGVyc29uYWxTaWduIDIgQ0EgLSBTSEEyNTYgLSBHMzCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEP ADCCAQoCggEBALaWaJNl/SwB7GKjDVS/i8ukQ5Gimq+xg/K1bW/Z8OrczxZ71xnjhAOF+cYf cI8fbEnFaRkecJE4NX4CSF05axhEpmqlyHT0XfWEPmMfcUSCCD7tyaf26W4mQSmAyUm6/9l2 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[73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l207sm16097189qke.36.2017.07.05.10.14.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Jul 2017 10:14:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <824F9BAA-90F7-40FE-A9BD-839E8CB47D25@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A59EC6AC-A710-48FD-84C0-C18846671E89" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:14:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1cf7a5f37c5242a9bf3d487d26627e2f@rew09926dag07b.domain1.systemhost.net> Cc: homenet@ietf.org To: mal.hubert@bt.com References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> <1cf7a5f37c5242a9bf3d487d26627e2f@rew09926dag07b.domain1.systemhost.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 17:14:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A59EC6AC-A710-48FD-84C0-C18846671E89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jul 5, 2017, at 11:46 AM, = wrote: > Looking for some thought from you guys. As an operator with millions = of devices using .home in their Residential Gateway CPE, Im interested, = does/should/could this draft provide some recommendations about how to = migrate its CPE from ".home" to ".home.arpa" ? I think this is out of scope for this document. My personal advice, = worth what you paid, is that you not change anything until you have a = positive reason to do so: don't change it just because this document = says to change it. What would motivate changing it would be if ICANN = allocates the name in some future gTLD process. At present they seem = to believe that it would cause too many problems, but that could change: = there are definitely organizations that would like to have the name. Until the delegation is installed by the IAB, I think it's too soon to = consider using 'home.arpa.'=20 --Apple-Mail=_A59EC6AC-A710-48FD-84C0-C18846671E89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Jul 5, 2017, at 11:46 AM, <mal.hubert@bt.com> = <mal.hubert@bt.com> wrote:
Looking for some thought from you guys. = As an operator with millions of devices using .home in their Residential = Gateway CPE, Im interested, does/should/could this draft provide some = recommendations about how to migrate its CPE from ".home" to = ".home.arpa" ?

I think this is out of scope for this = document.   My personal advice, worth what you paid, is that you = not change anything until you have a positive reason to do so: don't = change it just because this document says to change it.   What = would motivate changing it would be if ICANN allocates the name in some = future gTLD process.   At present they seem to believe that it = would cause too many problems, but that could change: there are = definitely organizations that would like to have the name.

Until the delegation is = installed by the IAB, I think it's too soon to consider using = 'home.arpa.' 

= --Apple-Mail=_A59EC6AC-A710-48FD-84C0-C18846671E89-- From nobody Wed Jul 5 12:32:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97E8131569 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PnnNPMPRulnE for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x243.google.com (mail-qk0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AC7F13154F for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x243.google.com with SMTP id v143so19783269qkb.3 for ; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=9cc/kHAuKUAhzr3kdV497jxaYIH/IylA2xnyf82otq8=; b=ga4yctpZsguaR0qGBC6g6wE0Q42ir+6t8PhZfUstM5QTNJiLwYr4T25KVUW0rWFDUY es1BZlUriX6afrH5ntAZpcEfTxDXBcMWzIMt+1WspgfF3+DlDFwxRjh3z4aZiKfpgoBc JS8IaCGG8jETBRwrwKlRLJ53rfBDiLuazFo+e8bfuLcs5D6K4AmF27WpfzmtyN4y7cns YTlXunQgF0HR1zMjvlrH5dJCZhXMLdHhrwxpuudo2aZA9lOsA5eBjVumeO3x2eLcd7x7 9Bzf/fSenuzJ2JUnTFOKRMA1RV6rKGhcvPyDhvbYTXRtuuDg5ZTRLKvfPbtO2q1iNyjs 0TYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=9cc/kHAuKUAhzr3kdV497jxaYIH/IylA2xnyf82otq8=; b=J7cP2OFx3mET6+yVPV6w8C6tkLz8pSmbRwE17XNgZWNr2qcH8Rt9TemLryCuQn5STC +2OEjLEyuXVKPGs0legN2NBrLhxo5qsAtOUaQz788s1ym/39Ln9e9fPuFwic+RgYApK8 clqalwaYVHPZxvmTfvHOqXsYPNPAm6nj0jnvY5YU8Ee1EDgHfQoQAcgGXI8k5gfLXQ2r +gexApUoT8GgM2JcQ4MLk6/jea5vwzeec+JBO2AXUkhdx2QNVDOW74JvlDxvZvEhLEZY ulJ+dFcPZW4H4veKXstg3HeDWYa+rGXgHasD2k1SeUn+/WYJSsUCsfA4+6vR64pF315J 0TTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOw/e0QwKOm6VK1ZSvBoLqDpPk3xKNFV5MkPmLPn8uOTcBSwZ2H/ zk1rvrE4uFlZkQ== X-Received: by 10.55.77.13 with SMTP id a13mr61136117qkb.194.1499283134470; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 12:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.15] (c-73-47-140-200.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.47.140.200]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z43sm17853514qtg.59.2017.07.05.12.32.13 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Jul 2017 12:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AF178A3C-7604-4A06-BC03-A6E3BF21F553" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Suzanne Woolf In-Reply-To: <824F9BAA-90F7-40FE-A9BD-839E8CB47D25@fugue.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 14:51:16 -0400 Cc: mal.hubert@bt.com, homenet@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> <1cf7a5f37c5242a9bf3d487d26627e2f@rew09926dag07b.domain1.systemhost.net> <824F9BAA-90F7-40FE-A9BD-839E8CB47D25@fugue.com> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 19:32:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AF178A3C-7604-4A06-BC03-A6E3BF21F553 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jul 5, 2017, at 1:14 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: >=20 > On Jul 5, 2017, at 11:46 AM, > > wrote: >> Looking for some thought from you guys. As an operator with millions = of devices using .home in their Residential Gateway CPE, Im interested, = does/should/could this draft provide some recommendations about how to = migrate its CPE from ".home" to ".home.arpa" ? >=20 > I think this is out of scope for this document. My personal advice, = worth what you paid, is that you not change anything until you have a = positive reason to do so: don't change it just because this document = says to change it. What would motivate changing it would be if ICANN = allocates the name in some future gTLD process. At present they seem = to believe that it would cause too many problems, but that could change: = there are definitely organizations that would like to have the name. FWIW, I=E2=80=99m not sure I fully agree with this definition of = relevant changes, particularly if you care about DNSSEC. There is not now, and IMO there is not likely ever to be, an unsigned = delegation in the root zone for .home to enable local DNSSEC resolution. There is not now, but likely soon to be (although Ted=E2=80=99s right = the relevant request hasn=E2=80=99t been made yet) an unsigned = delegation in the .arpa zone for .home.arpa to enable local DNSSEC = resolution. An interest in DNSSEC would argue for changing such names as soon as the = .home.arpa delegation is in place. Suzanne --Apple-Mail=_AF178A3C-7604-4A06-BC03-A6E3BF21F553 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Jul 5, 2017, at 1:14 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> = wrote:

On Jul 5, = 2017, at 11:46 AM, <mal.hubert@bt.com> <mal.hubert@bt.com> = wrote:
Looking for some thought from you guys. As an = operator with millions of devices using .home in their Residential = Gateway CPE, Im interested, does/should/could this draft provide some = recommendations about how to migrate its CPE from ".home" to = ".home.arpa" ?

I think this is out of scope for this = document.   My personal advice, worth what you paid, is that you = not change anything until you have a positive reason to do so: don't = change it just because this document says to change it.   What = would motivate changing it would be if ICANN allocates the name in some = future gTLD process.   At present they seem to believe that it = would cause too many problems, but that could change: there are = definitely organizations that would like to have the = name.

FWIW, = I=E2=80=99m not sure I fully agree with this definition of relevant = changes, particularly if you care about DNSSEC.

There is not now, and IMO there is not likely ever = to be, an unsigned delegation in the root zone for .home to enable local = DNSSEC resolution.

There is not now, = but likely soon to be (although Ted=E2=80=99s right the relevant request = hasn=E2=80=99t been made yet) an unsigned delegation in the .arpa zone = for .home.arpa to enable local DNSSEC resolution.

An interest in DNSSEC would argue for changing = such names as soon as the .home.arpa delegation is in = place.


Suzanne

= --Apple-Mail=_AF178A3C-7604-4A06-BC03-A6E3BF21F553-- From nobody Wed Jul 5 14:19:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37467131DE0 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 14:19:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sLngnA1uH_zI for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 14:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22e.google.com (mail-qk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 753E9131A30 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 14:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id v143so1244535qkb.0 for ; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 14:19:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=uHZRuD0xk4JulQrNfRBwOR/7gmZ5ASpVwCUlytx4Wck=; b=UgCLU4c7VCrZfWdDzU5K75I/YAa3TNY0PMxt1Ejui5PfmyJkxcbT/4cmIaHo/itz3K Yl61r5t+fSyx2Md+M62vT3N9C3joI01LSA8buFJf4hykOAGp/yJbl/ru8KAPV0NGZOlA q66MIJ6vfyri61rK7tSDoZF8ByiShjTbVPwjKL8fo9O24XIM8DPhq1762EYxqpr+XUSs ORMvfzF00MvJH26KiihO0WBmLXKS3rMJ9kFacjwZ0o2EW9ADnpnI/PvbfO/x2p61LEU+ /s6upRWMzn2ugcFRpvnPulheSnETW+lM5hN7Z9FtJVBjDflLe0SvIZKfQMAfZkbyQCV5 65gw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=uHZRuD0xk4JulQrNfRBwOR/7gmZ5ASpVwCUlytx4Wck=; b=KGJoV3VEQ7eccMGqk7l1WVJ2UVFyhz0dhtvDmZOcezln3+9WXYXJGphh3TUTZC0hvf yL1U2MFaS4WSjqhbGRZCL2L07nk7nkiViwL9t/KwZN7Uo5dRaPVTa3qFKAuHV/sl4Cbf CHwt8FLJQMOsD85FcBYTjMO3EDPmpZJBmKl4wWjYAVH76ApGQv00YbDxvuEqxdU5di8Y BrL8ZKe1SGXsoYOlIgKlk3Q4bZTqoiywl+6EmvnaymV+3EgsUbMjoXHx5q+YxKxD5cxI KWVg/8OIY/pFNhrQJ0WgPJHoVfn2lUYO8YtYy/4NC7YE7eiqckSACQsTI7PyLxW3GA5l TqfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOyxewO+nSdkYHZ/lyNpYuyvK6T+Ca+FtcD5rhRe8u7WeHln9yn9 7IjIAFpd1YORLk/q X-Received: by 10.55.56.133 with SMTP id f127mr59115316qka.122.1499289541608; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 14:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macbook-pro-6.ether.lede.home (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d44sm79071qta.55.2017.07.05.14.19.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Jul 2017 14:19:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <1A18833E-AA07-4CFD-A35E-FCA9DEC9BC2B@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B3DEA571-6B44-46AC-B42D-388D9D24ED5A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 17:18:59 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: mal.hubert@bt.com, homenet@ietf.org To: Suzanne Woolf References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> <1cf7a5f37c5242a9bf3d487d26627e2f@rew09926dag07b.domain1.systemhost.net> <824F9BAA-90F7-40FE-A9BD-839E8CB47D25@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 21:19:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B3DEA571-6B44-46AC-B42D-388D9D24ED5A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jul 5, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Suzanne Woolf = wrote: > An interest in DNSSEC would argue for changing such names as soon as = the .home.arpa delegation is in place. Yes, but BT has a rather large ops issue to contend with, and the DNSSEC = issue is (I presume) not causing any difficulty now, nor is it likely to = in the short term. Waiting until the delegation is present seems like = a safer bet than just making the switch now. The DNSSEC issue, which I = agree is important in the long run, is not likely to cause any = operational problem in the short run. --Apple-Mail=_B3DEA571-6B44-46AC-B42D-388D9D24ED5A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Jul 5, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Suzanne Woolf <suzworldwide@gmail.com> wrote:
An = interest in DNSSEC would argue for changing such names as soon as the = .home.arpa delegation is in place.

Yes, but BT has a rather large ops issue to = contend with, and the DNSSEC issue is (I presume) not causing any = difficulty now, nor is it likely to in the short term.   Waiting = until the delegation is present seems like a safer bet than just making = the switch now.   The DNSSEC issue, which I agree is important in = the long run, is not likely to cause any operational problem in the = short run.


= --Apple-Mail=_B3DEA571-6B44-46AC-B42D-388D9D24ED5A-- From nobody Wed Jul 5 21:20:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78588129AFC for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 21:20:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JB1wGvOqL70x for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 21:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [199.6.1.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21E731243FE for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 21:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25FC524AE09; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 04:19:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B78BC16005B; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 04:19:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 591C7160091; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 04:19:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id hSqnFzxdbO6r; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 04:19:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AAEC316005B; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 04:19:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA27D7DA3A1C; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 14:19:00 +1000 (AEST) To: "Walter H." Cc: homenet@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> <595D11E9.6080906@mathemainzel.info> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jul 2017 18:20:57 +0200." <595D11E9.6080906@mathemainzel.info> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 14:19:00 +1000 Message-Id: <20170706041900.EA27D7DA3A1C@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 04:20:40 -0000 In message <595D11E9.6080906@mathemainzel.info>, "Walter H." writes: > > One thing I have to comment to ".home.arpa", as I have changed any > device used in my residental home network to > use ".home.arpa" instead of ".local" or ".home", but I noticed one thing > in connection with BIND > (I'm using just simple DNS with BIND) > > I'm using DDNS and my router has there the dynamic master zones: > lets say "ddns.mynet.home.arpa" for forward DNS > and "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" for reverse DNS; > > on the second running DNS (also running BIND) which is just a VM > I could define there just a forward zone like this: > > zone "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" IN { > type forward; > forwarders { 192.168.0.1; }; > forward only; > }; > > but with the forward zone "ddns.mynet.home.arpa" this doen't work, and I > don't know if there are > any restrictions which shouldn't be in BIND ... > > the reason for just defining a forward zone instead of slave zone on the > second DNS is a timing thing: > > at the moment a device gets registrated on the master DNS by DHCP, > requests to the second DNS > just get forwarded to the master and so get an reply, but with a slave > zone requests to the second DNS > get resolved a longer time later ... If you have properly configured the zone / named on the master a NOTIFY message will be sent to the slave server which will trigger a zone refresh and subsequent update. This is actually the fastest way to get new content to the other servers as you don't have to wait for old content to expire from the cache. Named uses the NS RRset for the zone to determine where to send NOTIFY messages. It can also be configured to sent NOTIFY messages to other servers (see also-notify). Forwarding is only "fast" for records that are not already cached. > and this MUST work with ".home.arpa" the same way as with > "168.192.in-addr.arpa" ... > > these statements: > > disable-empty-zone "HOME.ARPA"; > disable-empty-zone "168.192.IN-ADDR.ARPA"; These are not needed if you are using a zone declarations (forward must be "forward only;") for ddns.mynet.home.arpa and 1.168.192.IN-ADDR.ARPA. Named will create the empty zones with dummy delegations for ddns.mynet.home.arpa and 1.168.192.IN-ADDR.ARPA. ("1.168.192.IN-ADDR.ARPA. NS ." and "ddns.mynet.home.arpa. NS .") This ensures that mynet.home.arpa returns a ENT and that DS lookup return NOERROR NODATA for ddns.mynet.home.arpa and 1.168.192.IN-ADDR.ARPA rather than NXDOMAIN. > work both; or do I have to give this: > > disable-empty-zone "MYNET.HOME.ARPA"; > > in order to work properly with forward zones? > > Thanks, > Walter > > On 04.07.2017 11:32, Ray Bellis wrote: > > Given the relatively large number of changes in this document based on > > Suzanne's review and my own, I'm starting a *one week* WGLC on this > > document before it gets pushed back out to our AD again. > > > > There was very little response to the last WGLC so there are concerns > > over whether it has WG consensus. > > > > *Please* read this version, and comment, even if it's to say "I have no > > comments, please go ahead and publish". > > > > NB: the particular string applied for (".home.arpa") is not up for > > discussion again. We've been there, done that. > > > > thanks, > > > > Ray > > > > --8<--8<-- > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the Home Networking of the IETF. > > > > Title : Special Use Domain '.home.arpa' > > Authors : Pierre Pfister > > Ted Lemon > > Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09.txt > > Pages : 9 > > Date : 2017-07-03 > > > > Abstract: > > This document specifies the behavior that is expected from the > Domain > > Name System with regard to DNS queries for names ending with > > '.home.arpa.', and designates this domain as a special-use domain > > name. 'home.arpa' is designated for non-unique use in residential > > home networks. Home Networking Control Protocol (HNCP) is updated > to > > use the '.home.arpa' domain instead of '.home'. > > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Wed Jul 5 21:23:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB11A129B31 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 21:23:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P7XsX8fKKEUA for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 21:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [199.6.1.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 426CD1243FE for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 21:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37D2E24AE09; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 04:23:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 086F416005B; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 04:23:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C11FC160091; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 04:23:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id iWLY_vTiXTVj; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 04:23:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 67CF216005B; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 04:23:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600937DA3B3B; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 14:23:23 +1000 (AEST) To: "Walter H." Cc: homenet@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> <595D11E9.6080906@mathemainzel.info> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jul 2017 18:20:57 +0200." <595D11E9.6080906@mathemainzel.info> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 14:23:23 +1000 Message-Id: <20170706042323.600937DA3B3B@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 04:23:32 -0000 Note also home.arpa will be problematical until the insecure delegation for it is made if you are validating. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Thu Jul 6 08:28:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6ABB12EBF4 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 08:28:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xQzg1c4vidDo for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 08:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x229.google.com (mail-qk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 406051201FA for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 08:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id 16so5212501qkg.2 for ; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 08:28:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=SHslr7db4rS0OrVLzheeYrJwVp8WGMsxpDRWl4Bl3X8=; b=zbm3wG+y8p+Rv3gO8Vp/wTfPdVwLdv+aYzgQM8OJQdcu3xuzdtTO3SaDtOLESpyfN3 SMw0TgVelzNMbOVzLQU/Z+royc2oOfMbIDeqIyHCGNafv8utWHyP7cC6kg2C8MFA/bGg /ytbHK+icoHdkB5SZE6VPTDxlIOzs5Z28b4eKDnbsBjoVNN+aN/MHBF7SFTDFBVs9E+3 CTX1l8AHPoit9iN53WGv1Uc6bmZe+upv6zcamKtQ0GLAEcmU1JIOng/RjagHeJ+btwOm 8BarDaRNu1JqcJswmfadpWQ260gt9yAyPhNar9kwoT0XToPjVsRlMkX2Stua39388Ese cguw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=SHslr7db4rS0OrVLzheeYrJwVp8WGMsxpDRWl4Bl3X8=; b=MCMG7s3NU3VJddBd8uUYkkX4oLdVnYJ7yq7RzUJrhaNjuwgA6nfYvZvVrk0FYIwRHV rf3zJwv1cwdc0roFrPvdGoKesS436dMRcn7ZuzTSzy4k8brN64HqBNqMvMskbgejI2Wt z7sQAzOZZE6LYCEqWm7lfOgrnEogMWWAbTkvQIjrAO/aag2gIXvki6PrQYievPF451Jh Z/o96eEO6RvgCoJBNDmZguJeRcraV/4z1JiexPdXFSRmBHKtda5oomx6BZJNX6DYbAS+ xibAk+NPfNtAuBugLYzt75amTCqMN53XvBdIa4X3BGtux/g+QFXJQlxmef8/GHpWJs6J 0v6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOzk38zYQ24nRSQlUnrvS19N4KOnpBpzTDmE7IyZ4O55um8V3Ev8 MEYar6uKx+KQRMxmlVfsCg== X-Received: by 10.55.165.204 with SMTP id o195mr57318394qke.48.1499354903041; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 08:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.43.27] (mobile-107-107-56-251.mycingular.net. [107.107.56.251]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x11sm343079qkb.12.2017.07.06.08.28.22 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Jul 2017 08:28:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FF1E6145-499C-451B-AA55-AEA4C21A9CD2" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 11:28:19 -0400 To: HOMENET X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] New version of Simple Homenet Naming Architecture X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 15:28:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FF1E6145-499C-451B-AA55-AEA4C21A9CD2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I issued a new version of the simple homenet naming architecture = document: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming-01 = This ties in with a series of documents Stuart and I published as = possible dnssd work: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sctl-service-registration-00 = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sctl-discovery-broker-00 = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sctl-dnssd-mdns-relay-00 = These all tie in to the homenet naming architecture=E2=80=94the work was = motivated on my part by a desire to come up with a solution that gets us = our simple homenet router but allows a fancier one to provide better = service on a network where most homenet routers are simple with respect = to naming. The diffs to the architecture document are pretty small, and the = document is an easy read. The first two documents listed above are = also quick reads. The mdns-relay document is a bit longer, because I = crammed a bunch of ops stuff into it, which may or may not belong. I'd like to discuss these in Prague, if the wg is willing. --Apple-Mail=_FF1E6145-499C-451B-AA55-AEA4C21A9CD2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I issued a new version of the simple homenet naming = architecture document: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming-01=

This ties in = with a series of documents Stuart and I published as possible dnssd = work:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sctl-service-registration-00<= /a>
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sctl-discovery-broker-00<= /div>
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sctl-dnssd-mdns-relay-00<= /div>

These all tie = in to the homenet naming architecture=E2=80=94the work was motivated on = my part by a desire to come up with a solution that gets us our simple = homenet router but allows a fancier one to provide better service on a = network where most homenet routers are simple with respect to = naming.

The = diffs to the architecture document are pretty small, and the document is = an easy read.   The first two documents listed above are also quick = reads.   The mdns-relay document is a bit longer, because I crammed = a bunch of ops stuff into it, which may or may not belong.

I'd like to discuss = these in Prague, if the wg is willing.

= --Apple-Mail=_FF1E6145-499C-451B-AA55-AEA4C21A9CD2-- From nobody Fri Jul 7 02:39:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37862126B6D for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 02:39:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H6M2qnI-HXEP for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 02:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [149.20.64.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02AC71204DA for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 02:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65F7A34930F for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 09:39:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2304016004A for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 09:39:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F422D160055 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 09:39:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ffY1yrkkLc4V for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 09:39:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rays-mbp.local (unknown [46.227.151.81]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8240916004A for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 09:39:36 +0000 (UTC) From: Ray Bellis To: HOMENET References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2017 10:39:34 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] Reminder - Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2017 09:39:45 -0000 The WGLC on this is due to run out next Tuesday. We've had a couple of comments, but we still need more people to confirm that they've read it and are happy for it to leave the WG. thanks, Ray On 04/07/2017 10:32, Ray Bellis wrote: > Given the relatively large number of changes in this document based on > Suzanne's review and my own, I'm starting a *one week* WGLC on this > document before it gets pushed back out to our AD again. > > There was very little response to the last WGLC so there are concerns > over whether it has WG consensus. > > *Please* read this version, and comment, even if it's to say "I have no > comments, please go ahead and publish". > > NB: the particular string applied for (".home.arpa") is not up for > discussion again. We've been there, done that. From nobody Fri Jul 7 05:34:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88F7129AF3 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 05:34:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=KOCK5wBz; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=J0AJYtON Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ejbOr-oYv_dV for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 05:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0202C12EAF9 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 05:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id D42E8C0354 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 12:34:07 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1499430847; bh=OOClkAGwgDDQGBJpJW0etcLw/aDWSQFXoHGpItSx4uc=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=KOCK5wBza/qES6l3JstAbX5053M63MX8negaCcSDxH1w5Asr49VthwgxCIV34XpdU cjzQk3wT8wb5rYz4CZUuXHe4Ca0/mAvlwMvj+bh1zPAtNoCewHl80ORqUHDWLnrmwe 8p8pMU/5OqcFsWJHuqruWeAWvLts4fJN29ijPK9I= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iReuhWId9lHW for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 12:34:06 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2017 08:34:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1499430846; bh=OOClkAGwgDDQGBJpJW0etcLw/aDWSQFXoHGpItSx4uc=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=J0AJYtONGBJYp3LCmwmpNxz32JAtVUnsLuXV5uhsdxGaXKyNjYoCA/TucueUo59RF X5BANySbs1dnQuk0ozp30lRkTJd6o/gMtmwQVTJR4hL6D1gybmnW1T5Ud89r1jGydq nT9Yz2jGK3hZCYs45gW2jS6CtBlFR8Z68Wa40nIA= From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170707123405.nt2ta3waqjlv2zx7@mx4.yitter.info> References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2017 12:34:11 -0000 Hi there, I have read the -09 draft. I think I am confused (but maybe I am confused about that). It says 5. No special processing of '.home.arpa' is required for authoritative DNS server implementations. However, it is possible that an authoritative DNS server might attempt to validate the delegation for a zone before answering authoritatively for that zone. In this situation, it would find an invalid delegation, and would not answer authoritatively. A server that implements this sort of check MUST be configurable so that either it does not do this check for the 'home.arpa' domain, or it ignores the results of the check. I think the problem here might be "attempt to validate". Since the point of section 7 is precisely to permit DNSSEC validation not to "fail" (i.e. not to validate "bogus"), this seems to be an equivocation on "validate". I think what is probably meant is It is possible that an authoritative DNS server might have local policy that requires positive DNSSEC validation of a delegation for a zone before answering authoritatively for that zone. In that situation, it would not find a signed delegation, and would therefore not answer authoritiatively. A server … If that's not what's meant, then I don't know what is meant. The delegation is certainly not invalid in the DNSSEC sense. It's not possible to find it in the global DNS servers authoritative for the parent name space, however. If _that's_ the worry, then the term "valid" is not what is needed here. In that case, maybe this is what's wanted: It is possible that an authoritative DNS server might attempt to check the authoritative servers for home.arpa. for a delegation beneath that name before answering authoritatively for such a delegated name. In such a case, because the name always has only local significance there will be no such delegation in the home.arpa. zone, and so the server would refuse to answer authoritatively for such a zone. A server … Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Fri Jul 7 06:43:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C56B131543 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 06:43:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xk_RelZvRpDR for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 06:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22e.google.com (mail-qk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 891921201F2 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2017 06:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id d78so27418222qkb.1 for ; Fri, 07 Jul 2017 06:43:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=tMpX7UPNPVstlW5SUMZNYtdrxd7YAp3cK4yobHtTpUw=; b=N8zBza6KgyJo1jKn976/jOGlPl2oMuBNBvy7NS+rFCnH/CRTB8mg0DAJOp5fboLAaN B9VMsovQiJhZJCgSvEnWazPRa5bF2YJioZDZ5N3nUBnKphC7GjLzQhawrnGN2NwbqsKR koVH3uFPRuInbOucW1Cq1AVr6z8VDtDdHTeTSZmO7f75mUkkm5wwNcrXq0UUJRYFZ9DC Frbsf69W1hVOGxKX0k+q8aGxKF5Q1eTi7oK8E3nykhZrEQme5gXcvCWrmyOPcqhTogzl wCRWhMPpDjr2Yue9KcEekYgC3/ODYVkt6R+1dzpgwI8PgqxZVzDI50wzD+GxFOu4swQK fPPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=tMpX7UPNPVstlW5SUMZNYtdrxd7YAp3cK4yobHtTpUw=; b=uMvUr2G1HgIFBNDIKt6WwE7o4xX9Z3Ur7C7g0XiGYqL75tSFVJX4MUKCJYjdmnsIBz hyF+uoLGY0s5F/U9e7BqIYJ3YQvRnfEt1D7pakS3RMeStjTfYXdzHpRSC0QJyjsmo/DF k2qTBPlxfCliQtKro75dYwRbtFdFEqvD2WhOdax3+72M5etHjLEeXfeiAiRaYYinS36A UrTH6PnjkXdNzLAetJ9XYYlsPSWABJet9TaDDeUsSn7GLYOGXHyxFiwdLWmfDaMlvp2h 60UeaIvyX+C1x3KqQy6eEKgsGAeeGWRmzJ6eaiptjH1uVeKqn09uLfAhjs43vtumCM3F 04tQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110Orj14IAAGjwdvcjonX7/mdRUV4bTLCCVVFYksP94DCm0SrgZt XPMnKEdIpFkRwTFYUvoAgQ== X-Received: by 10.55.133.69 with SMTP id h66mr53930159qkd.153.1499434984421; Fri, 07 Jul 2017 06:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.114] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a6sm2557921qtc.54.2017.07.07.06.43.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Jul 2017 06:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: iPad Mail (15A5304i) In-Reply-To: <20170707123405.nt2ta3waqjlv2zx7@mx4.yitter.info> Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2017 09:43:02 -0400 Cc: homenet@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> <20170707123405.nt2ta3waqjlv2zx7@mx4.yitter.info> To: Andrew Sullivan Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2017 13:43:09 -0000 Your second suggestion is what I meant. Thanks for taking the time to write= it=E2=80=94I totally missed the conflicting meaning of "validate".=20 > On Jul 7, 2017, at 8:34 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote= : >=20 > Hi there, >=20 > I have read the -09 draft. I think I am confused (but maybe I am > confused about that). >=20 > It says >=20 > 5. No special processing of '.home.arpa' is required for > authoritative DNS server implementations. However, it is > possible that an authoritative DNS server might attempt to > validate the delegation for a zone before answering > authoritatively for that zone. In this situation, it would find > an invalid delegation, and would not answer authoritatively. A > server that implements this sort of check MUST be configurable so > that either it does not do this check for the 'home.arpa' domain, > or it ignores the results of the check. >=20 > I think the problem here might be "attempt to validate". Since the > point of section 7 is precisely to permit DNSSEC validation not to > "fail" (i.e. not to validate "bogus"), this seems to be an > equivocation on "validate". I think what is probably meant is >=20 > It is possible that an authoritative DNS server might have local > policy that requires positive DNSSEC validation of a delegation > for a zone before answering authoritatively for that zone. In > that situation, it would not find a signed delegation, and would > therefore not answer authoritiatively. A server =E2=80=A6 >=20 > If that's not what's meant, then I don't know what is meant. The > delegation is certainly not invalid in the DNSSEC sense. It's not > possible to find it in the global DNS servers authoritative for the > parent name space, however. If _that's_ the worry, then the term > "valid" is not what is needed here. In that case, maybe this is > what's wanted: >=20 > It is possible that an authoritative DNS server might attempt to > check the authoritative servers for home.arpa. for a delegation > beneath that name before answering authoritatively for such a > delegated name. In such a case, because the name always has only > local significance there will be no such delegation in the > home.arpa. zone, and so the server would refuse to answer > authoritatively for such a zone. A server =E2=80=A6 >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > A >=20 > --=20 > Andrew Sullivan > ajs@anvilwalrusden.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From nobody Sun Jul 9 19:27:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4ABB131485 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 19:27:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3yyAaqXrnt0v for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 19:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [199.6.1.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1A8C12ECCB for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 19:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79C2624AE10; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:27:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 665B116003A; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:27:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269CC160053; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:27:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 7l06rwx_PXuQ; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:27:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8E2D116003A; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:27:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEDCC7E20D4F; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:27:31 +1000 (AEST) To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: homenet@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> <20170707123405.nt2ta3waqjlv2zx7@mx4.yitter.info> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jul 2017 08:34:05 -0400." <20170707123405.nt2ta3waqjlv2zx7@mx4.yitter.info> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:27:31 +1000 Message-Id: <20170710022731.CEDCC7E20D4F@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:27:44 -0000 In message <20170707123405.nt2ta3waqjlv2zx7@mx4.yitter.info>, Andrew Sullivan w rites: > Hi there, > > I have read the -09 draft. I think I am confused (but maybe I am > confused about that). > > It says > > 5. No special processing of '.home.arpa' is required for > authoritative DNS server implementations. However, it is > possible that an authoritative DNS server might attempt to > validate the delegation for a zone before answering > authoritatively for that zone. In this situation, it would find > an invalid delegation, and would not answer authoritatively. A > server that implements this sort of check MUST be configurable so > that either it does not do this check for the 'home.arpa' domain, > or it ignores the results of the check. I suspect someone is confusing authoritative (AA=1) with authenticated data (AD=1). A authoritative nameserver can set both or just AA=1. Note you can set AD=1 without checking the DS record in the parent. All that is required is that *local policy* for setting AD is met. 5. No special processing of '.home.arpa' is required for authoritative DNS server implementations. However, it is possible that an authoritative DNS server might attempt to validate the delegation for a zone before answering authoritatively for that zone. In this situation, it would find an insecure delegation (no DS record), and would not answer with AD=1. AA should be set as required by STD13. Note this is a *insecure* delegation, not a *invalid* delegation. > I think the problem here might be "attempt to validate". Since the > point of section 7 is precisely to permit DNSSEC validation not to > "fail" (i.e. not to validate "bogus"), this seems to be an > equivocation on "validate". I think what is probably meant is Section 7 is wrong, re-write below. 7. Delegation of 'home.arpa' In order to be fully functional, there must be a delegation of 'home.arpa' in the '.arpa' zone [RFC3172]. This delegation MUST be signed, MUST NOT include a DS record, and MUST point to one or more black hole servers, for example BLACKHOLE-1.IANA.ORG and BLACKHOLE-2.IANA.ORG. The delegation is signed to prove the existance of the delegation at 'home.arpa' and the non-existance of the DS record at 'home.arpa'. This breaks the DNSSEC chain of trust at 'home.arpa', which prevents a validating stub resolver from rejecting names published under 'home.arpa' on a homenet name server. The delegation of home.arpa is signed (NSEC record for home.arpa, or a covering NSEC3 record.), it just isn't a SECURE delegation (no DS record present). > It is possible that an authoritative DNS server might have local > policy that requires positive DNSSEC validation of a delegation > for a zone before answering authoritatively for that zone. In > that situation, it would not find a signed delegation, and would > therefore not answer authoritiatively. A server > > If that's not what's meant, then I don't know what is meant. The > delegation is certainly not invalid in the DNSSEC sense. It's not > possible to find it in the global DNS servers authoritative for the > parent name space, however. If _that's_ the worry, then the term > "valid" is not what is needed here. In that case, maybe this is > what's wanted: > > It is possible that an authoritative DNS server might attempt to > check the authoritative servers for home.arpa. for a delegation > beneath that name before answering authoritatively for such a > delegated name. In such a case, because the name always has only > local significance there will be no such delegation in the > home.arpa. zone, and so the server would refuse to answer > authoritatively for such a zone. A server > > Best regards, > > A > > -- > Andrew Sullivan > ajs@anvilwalrusden.com > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Sun Jul 9 19:49:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6E012EC33 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 19:49:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.881 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.881 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gU3rk6AGUKEw for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 19:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [199.6.1.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D38C129B4D for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2017 19:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1347E24AE10; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:48:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 237A216003A; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:48:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C0DA160053; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:48:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id L7hV-UHjJZMn; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:48:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A6AF616003A; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:48:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD1F7E20FE2; Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:48:27 +1000 (AEST) Cc: Andrew Sullivan , homenet@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:27:31 +1000." Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:48:27 +1000 Message-Id: <20170710024827.8CD1F7E20FE2@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 02:49:50 -0000 You can have signed delegations (in signed zones) and unsigned delegations (in unsigned zones). Signed delegations come in 2 flavours. * Secure (NS and DS record present with matching NSEC/NSEC3 record + RRSIGs for DS and NSEC/NSEC3 record). home.arpa. IN NSEC as112.arpa. NS DS RRSIG NSEC * INSecure (NS records, DS record NOT present, NSEC/NSEC3(optout=0/1) or covering NSEC3 record (outout=1) with RRSIGs for NSEC/NSEC3 record). home.arpa. IN NSEC as112.arpa. NS RRSIG NSEC Unsigned delegations * NS records present. DS records shouldn't be present. NSEC/NSEC3 should not be present. RRSIGs should not be present. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Mon Jul 17 01:56:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9704D126E3A for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 01:56:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=cEZuTHVk; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=Mc/+yQUO Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wXURXKyMsUFk for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 01:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8554C131771 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 01:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBC66BD996 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 08:56:16 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1500281776; bh=Uzyg80vNIPhBthTxgPkPj5kWzkxv9HJbyzOHoMZ0ea0=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=cEZuTHVkdOTTJAs4hGBbQfM+Q1ZBttREWFZm8cSVJlccRdajDwWS5MCGkczVh9fHC P6VpxxskLxQyyh66gMAg1DsYG7Gy5uJZb+OtAhYSlb6YJn/G4/Uw04N84PKDAWBgJb 9tcx4J6+6WAbkZxKsne+fT4JbNZMIuxiQi4y5mAE= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V-ubrcR0pXyZ for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 08:56:15 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 04:56:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1500281775; bh=Uzyg80vNIPhBthTxgPkPj5kWzkxv9HJbyzOHoMZ0ea0=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=Mc/+yQUOW0tBwzxbM0I1bQFIFl0OLML+rTUxbTy7Dh0/Cf6gM983fnI5G04WfQIZ7 zD+1lHk2WCUoAygKub/0bKf6KmunbRGxO9zsgWzhXN3i7Pg3RcWMnmItO3YDF6716y JNnPhML6461gsCMyYFvMtuhbJ5ajFq47SY/sZV1Y= From: Andrew Sullivan To: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170717085610.qphtk7jrk4oi3s2l@mx4.yitter.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming-00 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 08:56:48 -0000 Hi, I read draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming-00. I think this is an interesting idea, in that it attempts to carve out a small and achievable but limited naming arrangement. There are a couple things I'd say, however: 1. It seems to me that this approach is made "simple" partly by pruning requirements. For instance, RFC 7368 says this: The naming system will be required to work internally or externally, whether the user is within or outside of the homenet, i.e., the user should be able to refer to devices by name, and potentially connect to them, wherever they may be. The present I-D solves that problem by rejecting the premise: names just won't work outside the homenet. That might be the right answer, but it might be good for the document to be explicit about what parts of 7368 it will or will not satisfy. 2. There are some parts of the document that rule tricky problems out of scope. I think this is too puch punting. Either the WG should say how we're going to address those tricky problems, or else this document should just say, "Not possible under this specification". What I think is less good is to have a bunch of hard things that aren't in scope, and nowhere that scope is defined, because that encourages the tricky things to be solved in non-interoperating ways. I think that would be bad. I confess that my inner architecture astronaut liked the more complex approach better, because it proposed to solve more problems. But my pragmatic self wants to ship something and make some progress, and I'm not sure that a bigger scope than the present draft is going to get finished. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Mon Jul 17 09:04:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5CBE12711E for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:03:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v5sWhAF21uPV for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x232.google.com (mail-pf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2F46131C71 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id q86so78548531pfl.3 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:03:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pt9FPotKiV1Q0Gf30Mk9PduBGMWY0FDiNBWdjtuFKdk=; b=0hn7GpH8zYagUcSASudMflaT1TbVPnDE6CS9KFrtOYud/6w/BQqAEsc6ouaeHCVwYj a2GW0hE2nM7kUjsGVZLwXWRGECtl9TpqDJ1Ejf1kJ9hcqxP/mkMNF0i3URF7NTJilR1V P1Qz156EiN6qXCbmOBLScCxFLiC1TsdnK4uwiz+G7mU1Mbp6fjekgVSZQJ7/QI2kG8Vl iKIbXnG8EH3doSYCdjEEpx8+csN86McmV6w/36jXoi1lMtHum+PoOD48Wd54NeO8GNPe sCCXjeDvxPsGte2P56wkdCMJwtPFG/qQhQxj7VZaQJr1wCo5MBhHvODuBdkOFUvvoTxu 1SiQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pt9FPotKiV1Q0Gf30Mk9PduBGMWY0FDiNBWdjtuFKdk=; b=gQ30SKgyiXzMrpPt12xaNuUmPdBUyC3B2GaVdnb5aFujdIM5P0c8eshhtNvbGDZNOk bopfzTBlhv6eCauDETqp3de4BQz6SCHqAwEibJu2mtj4HXAyDoV05hk4KnE1t/dFRCD/ uZt7W5rT5VFrPENCdLUL3vrYPEU3Avm6wl5Mtj9VFMDCZ/gNlpH+KgP4ohVeyLxa/jCL NWuHj57WYIHslBhU/S4W9CI+gqjD/xK+rPfL4ZWCflogAPjh6bPcVs5LFn1rriJOmBWr 6ba7MTPiMBia3X1Rtfx04ooOe5dRdV+4OOg/S3F5fQ7uoeRIUJttUo4I82mqtrwEtu1l LnHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112uWuT0fJhXHpNQQMLKuYNxEJUvVZ/NjrwVpOJJc8x7dzDZ908F YxK890TwfuSoHvfbzVLnlKOmqheI7CiL X-Received: by 10.98.10.68 with SMTP id s65mr1496742pfi.55.1500307434179; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:03:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.181.42 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:03:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 18:03:13 +0200 Message-ID: To: HOMENET Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11459fbaab28df0554858bfa" Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] Naming requirements X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:03:59 -0000 --001a11459fbaab28df0554858bfa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Julian asked me to write this up, so I'm sending a note with what I think the requirements are: 1. It should be possible for hosts on the homenet to resolve names 2. It should be possible that if the homenet is multi-homed, a host that is capable of supporting provisioning domains (RFC7556) is able to treat a particular ISP's prefix and resolvers as being in a different provisioning domain than another ISP's prefix and resolvers. 3. For hosts that do not support multiple provisioning domains, it should be the case that the homenet only presents a single provisioning domain to them (we can treat the homenet provisioning domain and one of the ISP provisioning domains as a single provisioning domain for the sake of this statement). 4. It should be possible for hosts on any link on the homenet to discover services on that or any other link on the homenet 5. Full support for existing uses of service discovery (e.g., Apple's Sleep Proxy) should exist 6. It should be possible for an HNR that has greater capabilities (e.g. the advanced homenet naming architecture) to be elected as the default resolver for the homenet, so that all hosts on the homenet have access to the improved features of that HNR 7. Not all HNRs should be required to support the advanced homenet naming architecture. 8. Possibly it should be possible to have a low-cost HNR that cannot act as an HNR in support of the simple homenet naming architecture without there being a fully-capable HNR on the network (IOW, an HNR that supports Discovery Relay but not Discovery Proxy). I don't know that the entire working group agrees on this set of requirements, but it's my best attempt to dump my internal state on the topic. It's quite possible that I've failed to report one of these internalized requirements, of course. --001a11459fbaab28df0554858bfa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Julian asked me to write this up, so I'm sending a not= e with what I think the requirements are:

1. It should b= e possible for hosts on the homenet to resolve names
2. It should= be possible that if the homenet is multi-homed, a host that is capable of = supporting provisioning domains (RFC7556) is able to treat a particular ISP= 's prefix and resolvers as being in a different provisioning domain tha= n another ISP's prefix and resolvers.
3. For hosts that do no= t support multiple provisioning domains, it should be the case that the hom= enet only presents a single provisioning domain to them (we can treat the h= omenet provisioning domain and one of the ISP provisioning domains as a sin= gle provisioning domain for the sake of this statement).
4. It sh= ould be possible for hosts on any link on the homenet to discover services = on that or any other link on the homenet
5. Full support for exis= ting uses of service discovery (e.g., Apple's Sleep Proxy) should exist=
6. It should be possible for an HNR that has greater capabilitie= s (e.g. the advanced homenet naming architecture) to be elected as the defa= ult resolver for the homenet, so that all hosts on the homenet have access = to the improved features of that HNR
7. Not all HNRs should be re= quired to support the advanced homenet naming architecture.
8. Po= ssibly it should be possible to have a low-cost HNR that cannot act as an H= NR in support of the simple homenet naming architecture without there being= a fully-capable HNR on the network (IOW, an HNR that supports Discovery Re= lay but not Discovery Proxy).

I don't know tha= t the entire working group agrees on this set of requirements, but it's= my best attempt to dump my internal state on the topic. =C2=A0 It's qu= ite possible that I've failed to report one of these internalized requi= rements, of course.
--001a11459fbaab28df0554858bfa-- From nobody Mon Jul 17 09:21:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37B1131CA0 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:21:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ynQJ4pv-EEGp for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x233.google.com (mail-pf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C736131C71 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id q86so78785734pfl.3 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:21:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=sITKz2YI/t6bc7p6ZdGSQ7flkOZJnfoyKUwFrH43z7g=; b=FkuDJcO/a0bhV7ZxWkSgpEUB35p5YTiAdHLCxwND+jlZj0DMhlnS4K/WpGWXZhN8kl p7g8mc+q72J21pqnIEkXRMqmKL9Vne96EF2BFfpyUnbOqFPf4hNlTe8cDC9wtbXSjdh5 7MAf23rr4P9bYS4eDSzSzCRz2S+3dWyqQYLDNcOuV+kbgdptfSijQNC05U8B5O9MrIk3 RIfC5j9qbVoyREGvO89p5+Y9ulCKMKkpBcLU5IjP5zmOr0XkWAGBedDjLkwS6rbhIECR 3MfEF5qEV/FHNNeaOX9QwCYcYAnNbkjt7vnfvnE71R2dToRODNmi865q+ec/xxvBvwGn FdkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=sITKz2YI/t6bc7p6ZdGSQ7flkOZJnfoyKUwFrH43z7g=; b=hl6AWedfLd6lMskaSZI/80lxymt1J5Jf2arfiKvSBNFHCbuFhrjuTXk9XbZXQxxPHj F1skGIckHMrWXHUWtKY3b8Fq6c1HleJlU7qUSZ6O4BxHPZiwhz7F79jZhpQKBJnrVe0s ldssBA5ddRLEKo+czgIVclpPKTpFUKERjYHSfbvB6CgeD9wFCCzS+8r3elbDeKDrHjNa fJ/Te5t2CHcgmbMAV0cw8rPq/FoT7de/t2qxLTTbcId6JQ+J+9ImZ1oKWHbbtDJO/JZX bsWlFhS9lXciI6ZLSoNlLYqvbiSacD0jEDW/688r6DWX6TTNXBRdUHTMXP1rKh3YdfzJ qG/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1124DGGHbQ/hbzl9j5r/4wgoaLtgy9Qk7RidcbU84zPIh65jZxi+ lJPyrNIW2ojsSG3QD58fZIfIKzoJ4XAd X-Received: by 10.84.224.77 with SMTP id a13mr31751201plt.64.1500308512942; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:21:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.181.42 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:21:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Ted Lemon Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 18:21:12 +0200 Message-ID: To: HOMENET Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043a8510f7c137055485cbeb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Naming requirements X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:21:55 -0000 --f403043a8510f7c137055485cbeb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I'm going to blame this on jet lag. Sorry, Juliusz. I meant Juliusz, not Julian. On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > Julian asked me to write this up, so I'm sending a note with what I think > the requirements are: > > 1. It should be possible for hosts on the homenet to resolve names > 2. It should be possible that if the homenet is multi-homed, a host that > is capable of supporting provisioning domains (RFC7556) is able to treat a > particular ISP's prefix and resolvers as being in a different provisioning > domain than another ISP's prefix and resolvers. > 3. For hosts that do not support multiple provisioning domains, it should > be the case that the homenet only presents a single provisioning domain to > them (we can treat the homenet provisioning domain and one of the ISP > provisioning domains as a single provisioning domain for the sake of this > statement). > 4. It should be possible for hosts on any link on the homenet to discover > services on that or any other link on the homenet > 5. Full support for existing uses of service discovery (e.g., Apple's > Sleep Proxy) should exist > 6. It should be possible for an HNR that has greater capabilities (e.g. > the advanced homenet naming architecture) to be elected as the default > resolver for the homenet, so that all hosts on the homenet have access to > the improved features of that HNR > 7. Not all HNRs should be required to support the advanced homenet naming > architecture. > 8. Possibly it should be possible to have a low-cost HNR that cannot act > as an HNR in support of the simple homenet naming architecture without > there being a fully-capable HNR on the network (IOW, an HNR that supports > Discovery Relay but not Discovery Proxy). > > I don't know that the entire working group agrees on this set of > requirements, but it's my best attempt to dump my internal state on the > topic. It's quite possible that I've failed to report one of these > internalized requirements, of course. > --f403043a8510f7c137055485cbeb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm going to blame this on jet lag. =C2=A0 Sorry, Juli= usz. =C2=A0 I meant Juliusz, not Julian.
On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Ted Lemon <me= llon@fugue.com> wrote:
Julian asked me to write this up, so I'm sending a note wi= th what I think the requirements are:

1. It should be po= ssible for hosts on the homenet to resolve names
2. It should be = possible that if the homenet is multi-homed, a host that is capable of supp= orting provisioning domains (RFC7556) is able to treat a particular ISP'= ;s prefix and resolvers as being in a different provisioning domain than an= other ISP's prefix and resolvers.
3. For hosts that do not su= pport multiple provisioning domains, it should be the case that the homenet= only presents a single provisioning domain to them (we can treat the homen= et provisioning domain and one of the ISP provisioning domains as a single = provisioning domain for the sake of this statement).
4. It should= be possible for hosts on any link on the homenet to discover services on t= hat or any other link on the homenet
5. Full support for existing= uses of service discovery (e.g., Apple's Sleep Proxy) should exist
6. It should be possible for an HNR that has greater capabilities (e= .g. the advanced homenet naming architecture) to be elected as the default = resolver for the homenet, so that all hosts on the homenet have access to t= he improved features of that HNR
7. Not all HNRs should be requir= ed to support the advanced homenet naming architecture.
8. Possib= ly it should be possible to have a low-cost HNR that cannot act as an HNR i= n support of the simple homenet naming architecture without there being a f= ully-capable HNR on the network (IOW, an HNR that supports Discovery Relay = but not Discovery Proxy).

I don't know that th= e entire working group agrees on this set of requirements, but it's my = best attempt to dump my internal state on the topic. =C2=A0 It's quite = possible that I've failed to report one of these internalized requireme= nts, of course.

--f403043a8510f7c137055485cbeb-- From nobody Mon Jul 17 18:02:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B3F131D03 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 18:02:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A2__k3hAsDDq for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 18:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2807112EAAA for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 18:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v6I12Umn003167; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 03:02:31 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA144EB2D0; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 03:02:30 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id S2nTo91d7mBu; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 03:02:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ijon.irif.fr (107.223.broadband2.iol.cz [83.208.223.107]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CBAA6EB2CC; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 03:02:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 03:02:30 +0200 Message-ID: <87h8yaa76h.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon Cc: HOMENET In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Tue, 18 Jul 2017 03:02:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 596D5E26.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 596D5E26.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 596D5E26.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Naming requirements X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 01:02:34 -0000 > I'm going to blame this on jet lag. Sorry, Juliusz. I meant Juliusz, not > Julian. That's okay. Julius Caesar violated the Geneva Convention at the siege of Alesia, while emperor Julian was a humanist, a scholar, and a philosopher. -- Juliusz From nobody Sat Jul 22 23:42:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B52131C3C for ; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 23:42:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gB35nClZuXMu for ; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 23:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out.west.pexch112.icann.org (pfe112-ca-1.pexch112.icann.org [64.78.40.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C09AD1201F2 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 23:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) by PMBX112-W1-CA-2.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 23:42:45 -0700 Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org ([64.78.40.21]) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.PEXCH112.ICANN.ORG ([64.78.40.21]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 23:42:44 -0700 From: Terry Manderson To: "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Incoming chairs for HOMENET Thread-Index: AQHTA37j836MfjOGPU63Ma/1Z6i4nQ== Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 06:42:44 +0000 Message-ID: <16732A22-AE41-4243-A7AC-2456D53860C8@icann.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.32.234] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="B_3583672964_678945884" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] Incoming chairs for HOMENET X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 06:42:49 -0000 --B_3583672964_678945884 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear WG, I am pleased to announce that the new chairs for HOMENET will be Barbara Stark and Stephen Farrell. Ray has graciously offered to assist in a smooth chair transition by staying on until IETF100 (thanks Ray!) so this means for a few month HOMENET will have a 3-chair team. When will the new chairs take their seats? This coming week I will make the changes to the chair roster so that Barbara and Ray will be the chairs. In early August Stephen will be added, and then in Singapore Ray can finally rest. 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/FkXbznavbiwrl5f+ffc8EMfR3LRqajAPAWjehxg0vfFzmTrirgTrecBoeuW7x5pkOh1WK+6 xeCVg+6lLmzwgZB8gQcZ5WCy78r7YYmAe3PZ4UWxGrFJrGVEFYxAvNQiL3tOdjb1cUe9cls+ NcyrPNw8/a787gV4H2a/4VP5rDBBte7ljw== --B_3583672964_678945884-- From nobody Mon Jul 24 02:45:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CCA131BF8 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 02:45:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P-cb_H5U3cft for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 02:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.portfast.net (hydrogen.portfast.net [188.246.200.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0A50131BBE for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 02:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [46.227.151.81] (port=51994 helo=rays-mbp.local) by hydrogen.portfast.net ([188.246.200.2]:465) with esmtpsa (fixed_plain:ray@bellis.me.uk) (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1dZZvn-0004ue-BH (Exim 4.72) for homenet@ietf.org (return-path ); Mon, 24 Jul 2017 10:45:39 +0100 To: HOMENET From: Ray Bellis Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 10:45:40 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] Draft minutes uploaded X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 09:45:45 -0000 With thanks to Tim Wicinski for manning the Etherpad, the minutes of last Monday's session are uploaded at: Please advise the Chairs (mailto:homenet-chairs@ietf.org) of any omissions or corrections by Monday 28th August. thanks, Ray From nobody Mon Jul 24 02:48:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A1BE12EC4B for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 02:48:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kgtASuqYGbKx for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 02:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.portfast.net (hydrogen.portfast.net [188.246.200.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7EE2124217 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 02:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [46.227.151.81] (port=52068 helo=rays-mbp.local) by hydrogen.portfast.net ([188.246.200.2]:465) with esmtpsa (fixed_plain:ray@bellis.me.uk) (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1dZZyH-0004yG-Hi (Exim 4.72) for homenet@ietf.org (return-path ); Mon, 24 Jul 2017 10:48:13 +0100 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <7609f937-a8c0-e50e-e890-b22fb88c6bf0@isc.org> <20170707123405.nt2ta3waqjlv2zx7@mx4.yitter.info> From: Ray Bellis Message-ID: <28cdb34b-c2aa-4ce5-480f-b4c4c644bb8d@bellis.me.uk> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 10:48:14 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] WGLC on draft-ietf-homenet-dot-09 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 09:48:17 -0000 On 07/07/2017 14:43, Ted Lemon wrote: > Your second suggestion is what I meant. Thanks for taking the time > to write it—I totally missed the conflicting meaning of "validate". Ted, Please incorporate Andrew's proposed change, after which I shall (re-)advance this document to our AD for publication. thanks, Ray From nobody Tue Jul 25 13:27:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E02AB12420B for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:27:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b0Wove_dF4Id for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D430131EE1 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v6PKRM0i011235 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:27:22 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id v6PKRLZk004977 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:27:22 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3EDEEB2F8 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:27:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id 6cwRCIAM7qFK for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:27:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 59400EB2F0 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:27:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:27:19 +0200 Message-ID: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: homenet@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:27:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:27:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5977A9AA.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 5977A9A9.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5977A9AA.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5977A9A9.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5977A9AA.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5977A9A9.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 20:27:27 -0000 Dear all, All security wizards are kindly requested to carefully read and if necessary criticise the following section: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-02#section-4 Nasty comments on list, please, compliments by private mail ;-) Thanks, -- Juliusz From nobody Tue Jul 25 14:58:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD026131CDE for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 14:58:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r3q-_4s5kw-F for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 14:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00034129AF9 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 14:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id A62B3BE49; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:58:18 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4dY4NGtPung5; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:58:16 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 395F7BE2C; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:58:16 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1501019896; bh=8dekmC/Snwu78Ti/GaJQtzAfw/3pzWE95sUdG3Z24xI=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=D/0FDIX538MdCePKWxfteIo8Jv1UisDrHabJ7u5Stt23uAsrtcv8eGiI9eb6NLtBJ UTD/oMIYy1N5EvIUCjGJqqT7W3C5ATtEKVSAaUSpIkYKp82iiGDzLoVqrMp7Rx4SjM TnobCNeOXq7Ck6BcHmwe5NGoakv2K/JPLqm8KPbs= To: Juliusz Chroboczek , homenet@ietf.org References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <2a01c4f9-8961-3b8a-0746-f7c77a9e65e3@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:58:15 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WbROtgQMi6EAUCi2L5mtOSUiqkIiHSBl6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 21:58:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --WbROtgQMi6EAUCi2L5mtOSUiqkIiHSBl6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="SnVujdvnMUJA20r47ffc4sSpvqv9urodV"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Juliusz Chroboczek , homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <2a01c4f9-8961-3b8a-0746-f7c77a9e65e3@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> In-Reply-To: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> --SnVujdvnMUJA20r47ffc4sSpvqv9urodV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I suggest asking the chairs to hit the "request directorate" review (iirc only they can see that button?) for an early secdir review. For myself, I've not read the draft yet (I will over the next few weeks) but have two questions while I'm here: 1) The first sentence seems to not say what to do if a packet comes from a 1918 IPv4 address. Even if that's not supposed to happen, it could be attempted. What's an implementation supposed to do then? 2) Again I need to read the rest of the draft, but does this mean that anyone on that link of the homenet can inject these messages without any authentication, and if so why is that ok? (I'm not asking for now why doing better is too hard, just why it's ok for any node on link to be able to play here.) Cheers, S. On 25/07/17 21:27, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > Dear all, >=20 > All security wizards are kindly requested to carefully read and if > necessary criticise the following section: >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-02#secti= on-4 >=20 > Nasty comments on list, please, compliments by private mail ;-) >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > -- Juliusz >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet >=20 --SnVujdvnMUJA20r47ffc4sSpvqv9urodV-- --WbROtgQMi6EAUCi2L5mtOSUiqkIiHSBl6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZd773AAoJEC88hzaAX42ir+YH/3AK9c10p6ha2INIUEJ2h5qx 52zamHKULnYOcLe73R95IszxXX6xPpXg1Poa9takH7vb1lQEmgrvzl3G9iB+XEbC oRNu9NUPaAvUpdT0qa2jUNE2vuiNLDJzGT4dnf9hWgmlOKZIn1RjgLqfvRoNoPGR Riu7Evwtc1Q5V1luS0HOXcEcq51OVdEE2l6eBuZ5RQzWBQ9W2G/rEuJ8gsbiNLJM oqjZNZaiXvG29xEwDRpZFX8a2DuxWIY+RojSgs8+A6gQnXmqEhv4gVyHbS0OWA1J q772Rl8Pd5zJokUFssUt7SOd8v1kZ1j3RbRvp0jUkjPjpWipQk12pQZBfQPN1rs= =u5Lz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WbROtgQMi6EAUCi2L5mtOSUiqkIiHSBl6-- From nobody Tue Jul 25 15:09:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12509131F47 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:09:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zz4JUMtOUBCY for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56E6D131CEF for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v6PM95GK025395; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:09:05 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15847EB274; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:09:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id md7o_h1b9CYM; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:09:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D4E57EB2CC; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:09:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:09:00 +0200 Message-ID: <87o9s8f9tv.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Stephen Farrell Cc: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <2a01c4f9-8961-3b8a-0746-f7c77a9e65e3@cs.tcd.ie> References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> <2a01c4f9-8961-3b8a-0746-f7c77a9e65e3@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:09:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5977C181.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5977C181.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5977C181.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:09:09 -0000 > 1) The first sentence seems to not say what to do if a packet comes > from a 1918 IPv4 address. Even if that's not supposed to happen, it > could be attempted. What's an implementation supposed to do then? Both HNCP and Babel use IPv6 for carrying control data. There's no way an IPv4 packet can be received by them (barring bugs, of course). See also REQ1 in this draft. > 2) Again I need to read the rest of the draft, but does this mean > that anyone on that link of the homenet can inject these messages > without any authentication, On the trusted link, yes. > and if so why is that ok? This draft takes no stand on whether it is okay or not, it merely states the current security situation. Defining cryptographic authentication mechanisms for the Homenet stack is out of scope for this draft. -- Juliusz From nobody Tue Jul 25 15:19:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE3A131F82 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zidopkn6FvZo for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.portfast.net (hydrogen.portfast.net [188.246.200.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDB22131F77 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [46.227.151.81] (port=56869 helo=rays-mbp.local) by hydrogen.portfast.net ([188.246.200.2]:465) with esmtpsa (fixed_plain:ray@bellis.me.uk) (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1da8AU-0005bf-LH (Exim 4.72) for homenet@ietf.org (return-path ); Tue, 25 Jul 2017 23:19:06 +0100 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> <2a01c4f9-8961-3b8a-0746-f7c77a9e65e3@cs.tcd.ie> From: Ray Bellis Message-ID: <94f11e59-96d3-4057-b229-a681b923884d@bellis.me.uk> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 23:19:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2a01c4f9-8961-3b8a-0746-f7c77a9e65e3@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:19:14 -0000 On 25/07/2017 22:58, Stephen Farrell wrote: > I suggest asking the chairs to hit the "request directorate" review > (iirc only they can see that button?) for an early secdir review. Good idea - I've just done this. Ray From nobody Tue Jul 25 15:24:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACDF3131F84 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:24:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mbaugher-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GCUguNHoEUFG for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x233.google.com (mail-pf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DCCD131F89 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id h29so28319370pfd.2 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:23:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mbaugher-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=rl3Ne3Uo7KuARM2MIaHnNpvaFEq5OKtOl1Dwy6dSHZM=; b=nMCgJ2oWAOJE8tOhlVRld6MR5L16VZz+DxjSa7SDOcs8gkPPR6ClV+srZ8Wb8cwYHT RNBLWg0voHIQcJpslDX1GoAB5BqR55YZomDK22TY4o6CZUvoWSkhU6Ox5Zc5cPzusOtr 2xNFVAYL+N+/rtHm0McGjnK6/R+y+/59vu6bHPuDLd5yD+biVPq+d/Sg+Qn6sP08z3Ps 9WhnvTgXUdsYQ17y74KGqEEXk6tUwNaYljM6zoJNfW4/UU9kgaJjoRbNVfN9POEZVjWt /b6iCPoV1ejKv6dBM/jO/V9OvNtH5HGVpu2WopbLnzmBqwFfGJZLsP/bMflZfCPeiiHT i35w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=rl3Ne3Uo7KuARM2MIaHnNpvaFEq5OKtOl1Dwy6dSHZM=; b=bhk9qIeaZiTLmOR1FN3Z9MnSKlkbzrAljKK2IC7GJtj7ANg678n+scClMeYxiTS11A 9NyYpGxVUoCGI7KmKkDyKOcU4B2xO8lP3ZjOzbu8htw8ysfNZZrIN2pQexkFBJuNSpjj o/Tyr+w2a4+/D/AEWZ9mEKx6sr5FRgY+blRcWFvh80oX32XGDAQ46I9f3EYLYqnPKHtb zG/SI/TYOG4vjDY7uGYcbDGmqe/0hBkNv4fhYZzvZXlKGlpsi+HJG8wy/4kQ7P8S66bA 7ER7A8HbPoYw/apiHS2Yjh1+tJCf98mWcIeFctkI8WiXwNA/0np+J/zeqopui1BZF7sZ HXqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111IPAd3GkApuUOxZhBa8momU0tskPlNbcwIUu9puDFSUqEnhWNj vPNysOgqh2gNxKTh X-Received: by 10.84.217.208 with SMTP id d16mr22754367plj.208.1501021438785; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.232.219.12] ([73.96.114.232]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t24sm19291348pfl.26.2017.07.25.15.23.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Mark Baugher In-Reply-To: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:23:55 -0700 Cc: homenet@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2EB62874-CC8D-4E41-80A1-1EA3978912F2@mbaugher.com> References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:24:02 -0000 > On Jul 25, 2017, at 1:27 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > > Dear all, > > All security wizards are kindly requested to carefully read and if > necessary criticise the following section: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-02#section-4 Based on this paragraph... "If untrusted links are used for transit, which is NOT RECOMMENDED, and therefore need to carry HNCP and Babel traffic, then HNCP and Babel MUST be secured using an upper-layer security protocol. While both HNCP and Babel support cryptographic authentication, at the time of writing no protocol for autonomous configuration of HNCP and Babel security has been defined." ...one might recommend starting with "an upper-layer security protocol" such as CMS, COSE, JOSE or some other layer-3 encapsulation. Mark > > Nasty comments on list, please, compliments by private mail ;-) > > Thanks, > > -- Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From nobody Tue Jul 25 15:32:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6AC8131FAD for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:32:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dQoX_A-P1Uhz for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 405B6131F05 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v6PMWfrE028349; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:32:41 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73ABEEB2CC; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:32:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id aDp7CSqEXWem; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:32:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 627D4EB274; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:32:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:32:40 +0200 Message-ID: <87h8y0f8qf.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Mark Baugher Cc: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <2EB62874-CC8D-4E41-80A1-1EA3978912F2@mbaugher.com> References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> <2EB62874-CC8D-4E41-80A1-1EA3978912F2@mbaugher.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Wed, 26 Jul 2017 00:32:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5977C709.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5977C709.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5977C709.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:32:45 -0000 > ...one might recommend starting with "an upper-layer security protocol" > such as CMS, COSE, JOSE or some other layer-3 encapsulation. We're planning to use DTLS for both HNCP and Babel. But the authentication mechanism is not our main concern. This being Homenet, we need to generate keys automatically and distribute them securely with little or no user intervention. This is not trivial to do right, and requires carefully balancing the tradeoffs between security and usability. -- Juliusz From nobody Wed Jul 26 02:47:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBD81318A2 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 02:47:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r_idpS437dI8 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 02:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFB1131947 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 02:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1daIuD-0000IGC; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:47:01 +0200 Message-Id: To: homenet@ietf.org Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-b7900FA3D@u-1.phicoh.com In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:27:19 +0200 ." <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:47:01 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 09:47:05 -0000 >Nasty comments on list, please, compliments by private mail ;-) A trick used in some places, such as ND, is to require the receiver to check that the hop limit is equal to 255. This ensures that the packet has not been forwarded by any router (obviously the sender also has to send it with a hop limit of 255). Historically, a popular brand of router would forward packets with LL source. So that cannot be considered safe in general. From nobody Wed Jul 26 11:49:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6705131C31 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IeUX7mrAW8EC for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81D37131C33 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:49:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EFD04293A for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 20:49:10 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9C342939; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 20:49:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 5547A6EDA9; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 20:49:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 20:49:10 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Philip Homburg Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Juliusz Chroboczek Message-ID: <20170726184910.GR45648@Space.Net> References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.8.2 (2017-04-18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 18:49:16 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 11:47:01AM +0200, Philip Homburg wrote: > Historically, a popular brand of router would forward packets with LL source. "Historically"? Has this been fixed? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Wed Jul 26 14:31:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25F0131E89 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 14:31:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iw_V9RDecjJM for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 14:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20B7A131E3D for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 14:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v6QLV2P8024539; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:31:02 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 519C8EB2F0; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:31:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id xAIx5v_QqnKl; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:31:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 38E30EB2D0; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:31:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:31:00 +0200 Message-ID: <87eft2ubqj.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Philip Homburg Cc: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:31:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59790A16.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59790A16.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59790A16.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:31:35 -0000 > A trick used in some places, such as ND, is to require the receiver to check > that the hop limit is equal to 255. This ensures that the packet has not > been forwarded by any router (obviously the sender also has to send it with > a hop limit of 255). Yeah, the so-called "TTL hack". I considered that for Babel back when it was being designed, then decided that it is useful in an IPv6 world. Perhaps I was wrong, but at this stage it would break interoperability with all existing Babel routers, which is not acceptable. > Historically, a popular brand of router would forward packets with LL source. Let's hope none of these historical routers will be used in a Homenet environment. -- Juliusz From nobody Wed Jul 26 14:54:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D27131D21 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 14:54:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ytaLLSwPafjb for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 14:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCA07127601 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 14:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v6QLspZO028656; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:54:51 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D85DEB2D0; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:54:51 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id TZBrMeuMy2SA; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:54:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39387EB2CC; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:54:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:54:49 +0200 Message-ID: <87d18muamu.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Philip Homburg Cc: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <87eft2ubqj.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87eft2ubqj.wl-jch@irif.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:54:51 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59790FAB.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59790FAB.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59790FAB.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:54:55 -0000 > Yeah, the so-called "TTL hack". I considered that for Babel back when it > was being designed, then decided that it is useful in an IPv6 world. This was meant to say "not useful", of course. From nobody Wed Jul 26 16:31:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83ABB131EDE for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 16:31:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v4hEiiQR_jlw for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 16:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33074131EDC for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 16:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1daVly-0000JcC; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 01:31:22 +0200 Message-Id: To: homenet@ietf.org Cc: Gert Doering From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-b7900FA3D@u-1.phicoh.com References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> <20170726184910.GR45648@Space.Net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Jul 2017 20:49:10 +0200 ." <20170726184910.GR45648@Space.Net> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 01:31:20 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:31:27 -0000 In your letter dated Wed, 26 Jul 2017 20:49:10 +0200 you wrote: >> Historically, a popular brand of router would forward packets with LL source >. > >"Historically"? Has this been fixed? I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes they do fix a bug and I didn't want to spend any time figuring out if this one was fixed or not. From nobody Wed Jul 26 16:33:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0282B131EF0 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 16:33:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sKTPPsi1ua3J for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 16:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D47131EE6 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2017 16:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1daVny-0000DNC; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 01:33:26 +0200 Message-Id: To: homenet@ietf.org Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-b7900FA3D@u-1.phicoh.com References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87eft2ubqj.wl-jch@irif.fr> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:31:00 +0200 ." <87eft2ubqj.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 01:33:26 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:33:29 -0000 >Yeah, the so-called "TTL hack". Care to explain why it would not be useful? From nobody Thu Jul 27 01:28:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF64B126E64 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 01:28:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id az1GZw062xct for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 01:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3F43126B7E for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 01:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id v6R8SaZt010946 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:28:36 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id v6R8Sa0E028931; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:28:36 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B34EB342; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:28:36 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id Di-58XlKSeOV; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:28:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1B38DEB2CC; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:28:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:28:33 +0200 Message-ID: <87r2x2ffm6.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Philip Homburg Cc: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87eft2ubqj.wl-jch@irif.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:28:36 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:28:36 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 5979A434.003 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 5979A434.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5979A434.003 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 5979A434.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5979A434.003 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 5979A434.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 08:28:41 -0000 >> Yeah, the so-called "TTL hack". > Care to explain why it would not be useful? At the time I wrote down Babel, I decided that given that we have link-local addresses that are securely scoped to a single link, the TTL hack is not necessary. A workaround to the issue you describe would be to check the destination address of Babel/HNCP packets in addition to the source address, and rejecting a packet if the destination address is not in one of fe80::/64 or ff02::/112. If we did that, would the TTL hack still hold any value? -- Juliusz From nobody Thu Jul 27 06:38:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132EC132158 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 06:38:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0GQSAmJhEXPg for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 06:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39A8132025 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 06:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1daizY-0000HBC; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:38:16 +0200 Message-Id: To: homenet@ietf.org Cc: Juliusz Chroboczek From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-b7900FA3D@u-1.phicoh.com References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87eft2ubqj.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87r2x2ffm6.wl-jch@irif.fr> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 Jul 2017 10:28:33 +0200 ." <87r2x2ffm6.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:38:15 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:38:21 -0000 >>> Yeah, the so-called "TTL hack". > >> Care to explain why it would not be useful? > >At the time I wrote down Babel, I decided that given that we have link-local >addresses that are securely scoped to a single link, the TTL hack is not >necessary. The TTL hack is used in ND. It strikes me as really bad for security to come up with a different mechanism to achieve the same result for no other reason than that you for some reason didn't like that trick. From nobody Thu Jul 27 06:40:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472FF132025 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 06:40:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iDl7pL3t_FBw for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 06:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25F4913215C for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 06:40:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7C042800 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:40:52 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09024427FA; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:40:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 05FC49294; Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:40:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:40:51 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Philip Homburg Cc: homenet@ietf.org, Juliusz Chroboczek Message-ID: <20170727134051.GZ45648@Space.Net> References: <874lu045zs.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87eft2ubqj.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87r2x2ffm6.wl-jch@irif.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.8.2 (2017-04-18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Please review security considerations of draft-homenet-babel-profile X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 13:40:56 -0000 Hi, On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 03:38:15PM +0200, Philip Homburg wrote: > The TTL hack is used in ND. Because ND uses GUAs (which it should have never done in the first place). > It strikes me as really bad for security to come > up with a different mechanism to achieve the same result for no other reason > than that you for some reason didn't like that trick. Relying on "it must be a link local src and link local dst" sounds much more sane than "we permit arbitrary packets to reach us from the outside and then worry about criteria to ignore them afterwards". Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Fri Jul 28 06:04:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4665132139; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 06:04:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: , , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.57.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 06:04:52 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 13:04:53 -0000 The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Barbara Stark) The document is available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming/ From nobody Fri Jul 28 08:16:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39B9132138 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:16:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id snn6nI3fYgNQ for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EB32132131 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049462.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. 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Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:22:37 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" Thread-Index: AQHTB6IeRf3yCgeiyk681hmkEW8nh6JpNx+Q Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 13:22:37 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DBE0147@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.236.178] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-07-28_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1706020000 definitions=main-1707280207 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:16:45 -0000 SGkgaG9tZW5ldCwNClRoYW5rcyB0byBhbGwgb2YgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIHdlbGwtd2lzaGVzIGFu ZCBjb25ncmF0dWxhdGlvbnMgKGFuZCBjb25kb2xlbmNlcykgZm9yIG15IG5ldyByb2xlIGFzIGEg aG9tZW5ldCBjaGFpci4NCkFzIG15IGZpcnN0IG9mZmljaWFsIGFjdCwgdW5kZXIgdGhlIGV4Y2Vs bGVudCB0dXRlbGFnZSBvZiBSYXksIEknbSBsYXVuY2hpbmcgYSAyIHdlZWsgQ2FsbCBmb3IgQWRv cHRpb24gb24gZHJhZnQtdGxkbS1zaW1wbGUtaG9tZW5ldC1uYW1pbmcuIFRoZSBjYWxsIHdpbGwg ZW5kIEF1Z3VzdCAxMS4gDQpQbGVhc2UgcmVhZCB0aGUgZHJhZnQgKGlmIHlvdSBoYXZlbid0IGRv bmUgc28gYWxyZWFkeSksIGFuZCBleHByZXNzIHlvdXIgdGhvdWdodHMgb24gd2hldGhlciBhbmQg d2h5IHdlIHNob3VsZCBhZG9wdCB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0LiANCg0KQW5kIGRvbid0IGZvcmdldCB0byB5 ZWxsIGF0IG1lIHdoZW5ldmVyIEkgZG8gYW55dGhpbmcgd3JvbmchIEknbSBuZXcgdG8gYWxsIHRo aXMgSUVURiBjaGFpcmluZyBwcm9jZXNzIGFuZCBmdWxseSBleHBlY3QgdG8gbWFrZSBhbGwgc29y dHMgb2YgbmV3IGFuZCBleGNpdGluZyBtaXN0YWtlcy4NCkJhcmJhcmENCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdp bmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBJRVRGIFNlY3JldGFyaWF0IFttYWlsdG86aWV0Zi1z ZWNyZXRhcmlhdC1yZXBseUBpZXRmLm9yZ10NCj4gU2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBKdWx5IDI4LCAyMDE3 IDk6MDUgQU0NCj4gDQo+IFRoZSBIT01FTkVUIFdHIGhhcyBwbGFjZWQgZHJhZnQtdGxkbS1zaW1w bGUtaG9tZW5ldC1uYW1pbmcgaW4gc3RhdGUNCj4gQ2FsbCBGb3IgQWRvcHRpb24gQnkgV0cgSXNz dWVkIChlbnRlcmVkIGJ5IEJhcmJhcmEgU3RhcmspDQo+IA0KPiBUaGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgaXMgYXZh aWxhYmxlIGF0DQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2RyYWZ0LXRsZG0t c2ltcGxlLWhvbWVuZXQtbmFtaW5nLw0KDQo= From nobody Fri Jul 28 10:32:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15157132220 for ; 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([2620:0:10e7:10:8ca1:6f39:df70:5c2f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 24sm234957pfh.186.2017.07.28.10.32.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:32:20 -0700 (PDT) From: james woodyatt Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7B3E11F2-D9B2-44D6-B69C-6B426F89F559" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 10:32:19 -0700 In-Reply-To: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming@ietf.org To: HOMENET References: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 17:32:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7B3E11F2-D9B2-44D6-B69C-6B426F89F559 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jul 28, 2017, at 06:04, IETF Secretariat = wrote: >=20 > The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state = Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Barbara Stark) I can support adoption, but I have some criticisms to raise before it = goes to last call. --james woodyatt > --Apple-Mail=_7B3E11F2-D9B2-44D6-B69C-6B426F89F559 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Jul 28, 2017, at 06:04, IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org> wrote:

The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Barbara Stark)

I can support adoption, but I have some criticisms to raise before it goes to last call.

--james woodyatt <jhw@google.com>



--Apple-Mail=_7B3E11F2-D9B2-44D6-B69C-6B426F89F559-- From nobody Fri Jul 28 13:11:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD2C3127337; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 13:11:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: homenet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.57.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 13:11:02 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 20:11:03 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Home Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Special Use Domain 'home.arpa.' Authors : Pierre Pfister Ted Lemon Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2017-07-28 Abstract: This document specifies the behavior that is expected from the Domain Name System with regard to DNS queries for names ending with '.home.arpa.', and designates this domain as a special-use domain name. 'home.arpa.' is designated for non-unique use in residential home networks. Home Networking Control Protocol (HNCP) is updated to use the 'home.arpa.' domain instead of '.home'. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-dot/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Jul 30 10:19:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032FB1200C5 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q16yYah-eBJV for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 421751276AF for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAC71E1F8 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 13:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C0F8070B for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 13:19:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "homenet\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DBE0147@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DBE0147@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 17:19:45 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I have read homenet-naming. It wasn't quite the document I was expecting. But rather seems to leverage upon a number of other draft-sctl* documents in progress. What are the plans for draft-sctl-*? and then there is draft-ietf-mid-mpvd-ndp-support as a normative reference. Will homenet will to adopt that too? So it seems that I have to read the other documents in detail before I can make any clear opinion as to how this all fits together. (I think I've missed the last two homenet WG meetings due to conflicts; I should watch them on meetecho recording to learn more I guess) -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAll+FSwACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUpGAf/SvPzW95lnNt8JPkcX2zcwRC6wIeKfV9X8q6MsL0kvjYYi/gVX5pn1eKi n6mIbJgkZNhpAUFpaAyE0UfsHE7tYNVEi/+u3U/FiSOMJfDipYJOtJfkAej5EXNQ UgwYJYPKvQPWlujb5uY/LN7e4NJGiOHiT1GO+2m2imQuDHXJ+DFq4Q25GBtZGy3d WSQQAqHysyxemxeQ6xLVZ26aGtKKJ90h7b5VR1I9q6iTMRhJ5j4m4QkLOdZyN7/T CUFpy2MYQASlpvPnLq0n75j8kpO9it0wbMiACsQQBaUz6JoiexConEs7yWI41weG qyGFEY0JmlqUseZM7IT9SOQHbD0cCw== =3oXb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Jul 30 11:01:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 946F8124217 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 11:01:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lV_8JkQvxJPd for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 11:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86DE4131945 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 11:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v6UI1brQ017305 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 20:01:37 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB8AEB2D0 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 20:01:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id tMlPaFH5kOzQ for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 20:01:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7224AEB2CC for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 20:01:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 20:01:34 +0200 Message-ID: <87r2wxby81.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: "homenet@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <12743.1501435181@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DBE0147@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <12743.1501435181@obiwan.sandelman.ca> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Sun, 30 Jul 2017 20:01:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 597E1F01.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 597E1F01.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 597E1F01.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 18:01:42 -0000 > It wasn't quite the document I was expecting. But rather seems to > leverage upon a number of other draft-sctl* documents in progress. I agree with Michael -- this is not a protocol definition, it is an informal outline of how a number of other protocols can be made to fit together. It has normative dependencies on no less than 5 different -sctl- drafts, none of which have been adopted by dnssd yet. I believe that it would be premature to adopt this document. Let us please wait and see whether dnssd decides to adopt the depended-upon drafts. Let us also see whether the implementation complexity is manageable, and whether the large number of moving parts causes undesired brittleness. I have some other fairly serious nits about this document, but I believe that the argument above is sufficient. I am opposed to adoption at this stage, but look forward to reconsidering once dnssd has had a serious look at the protocols. -- Juliusz From nobody Sun Jul 30 12:49:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59E5131CCC for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:49:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jisc.ac.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IanppT7ZbO00 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 12:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com [207.82.80.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8600B131CC5 for ; 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Sun, 30 Jul 2017 19:49:20 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: Michael Richardson CC: "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" Thread-Index: AQHTB7SPPiu9XY2yCUuLmtA4ygPxM6JsoKWAgAApz4A= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 19:49:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DBE0147@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <12743.1501435181@obiwan.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <12743.1501435181@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) x-originating-ip: [2001:a88:d510:1101:3d25:de87:64aa:5fc9] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM3PR07MB291; 20:y0pDKPQinRqDzlZlLDoppp7qzyC5n5lf9pQ/epEvmSVc4tVuybv3FlpMLmYnlbnyuYYvKMucEPmiocKF1MXZAlb9fnTupkRTyHa5KOCPp1ZMzHusquBOcBUtnHQUlyOKT82oJ4IH0dFO9KqELXTRqaP4eon5i/sZl22lO+uwJLg= x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; 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FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-ID: <919D416EEA38844CB4FB45A52631FC0B@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jisc.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Jul 2017 19:49:20.6724 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 48f9394d-8a14-4d27-82a6-f35f12361205 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM3PR07MB291 X-MC-Unique: EW1sd5tBPlSs2Ba-MTse6g-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 19:49:30 -0000 SGksDQoNCj4gT24gMzAgSnVsIDIwMTcsIGF0IDE4OjE5LCBNaWNoYWVsIFJpY2hhcmRzb24gPG1j citpZXRmQHNhbmRlbG1hbi5jYT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiBJIGhhdmUgcmVhZCBob21lbmV0LW5h bWluZy4NCj4gDQo+IEl0IHdhc24ndCBxdWl0ZSB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgSSB3YXMgZXhwZWN0aW5n Lg0KPiBCdXQgcmF0aGVyIHNlZW1zIHRvIGxldmVyYWdlIHVwb24gYSBudW1iZXIgb2Ygb3RoZXIg ZHJhZnQtc2N0bCogZG9jdW1lbnRzIGluIHByb2dyZXNzLg0KPiANCj4gV2hhdCBhcmUgdGhlIHBs YW5zIGZvciBkcmFmdC1zY3RsLSo/DQoNCkkgZG9u4oCZdCB0aGluayB0aGV54oCZcmUgY2l0ZWQg aW4gdGhpcyBkcmFmdC4gTWFueSBvZiB0aGVtIGFyZSBvdmVyIGluIHRoZSBkbnNzZCBXRy4NCg0K U2VlIFN0dWFydOKAmXMgZGVjayBmcm9tIFByYWd1ZSBmb3IgY29udGV4dDoNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3 LmlldGYub3JnL3Byb2NlZWRpbmdzLzk5L3NsaWRlcy9zbGlkZXMtOTktZG5zc2QtZG5zLXNkLXVw ZGF0ZS1hbmQtbmV3LXdvcmstaXRlbXMtMDAucGRmDQoNCj4gYW5kIHRoZW4gdGhlcmUgaXMgZHJh ZnQtaWV0Zi1taWQtbXB2ZC1uZHAtc3VwcG9ydCBhcyBhIG5vcm1hdGl2ZSByZWZlcmVuY2UuDQo+ IFdpbGwgaG9tZW5ldCB3aWxsIHRvIGFkb3B0IHRoYXQgdG9vPw0KPiANCj4gU28gaXQgc2VlbXMg dGhhdCBJIGhhdmUgdG8gcmVhZCB0aGUgb3RoZXIgZG9jdW1lbnRzIGluIGRldGFpbCBiZWZvcmUg SSBjYW4NCj4gbWFrZSBhbnkgY2xlYXIgb3BpbmlvbiBhcyB0byBob3cgdGhpcyBhbGwgZml0cyB0 b2dldGhlci4NCj4gKEkgdGhpbmsgSSd2ZSBtaXNzZWQgdGhlIGxhc3QgdHdvIGhvbWVuZXQgV0cg bWVldGluZ3MgZHVlIHRvIGNvbmZsaWN0czsgSQ0KPiBzaG91bGQgd2F0Y2ggdGhlbSBvbiBtZWV0 ZWNobyByZWNvcmRpbmcgdG8gbGVhcm4gbW9yZSBJIGd1ZXNzKQ0KDQpJdCB0dXJuZWQgb3V0IHRo YXQgb25seSA0IHBlb3BsZSBoYWQgdGltZSB0byByZWFkIHRoZW0gZm9yIFByYWd1ZS4gDQoNClRo ZSBpbnRlcmVzdGluZyB0d2lzdCBpcyB0aGUgcHVzaGJhY2sgb24gbXVsdGljYXN0IGZvciBmdXR1 cmUgc3BlY3MuIA0KDQpJIGFncmVlIGl04oCZcyBlYXJseSBmb3IgYW4gYWRvcHRpb24gY2FsbCwg bGlrZXdpc2UgZm9yIHRoZSBkcmFmdC1zY3RsLSogZHJhZnRzIGluIGRuc3NkLg0KDQpUaW0NCg0K PiANCj4gDQo+IC0tDQo+IE1pY2hhZWwgUmljaGFyZHNvbiA8bWNyK0lFVEZAc2FuZGVsbWFuLmNh PiwgU2FuZGVsbWFuIFNvZnR3YXJlIFdvcmtzDQo+IC09IElQdjYgSW9UIGNvbnN1bHRpbmcgPS0N Cj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18NCj4gaG9tZW5ldCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gaG9tZW5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2hvbWVuZXQNCg0K From nobody Sun Jul 30 14:10:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2158131C21 for ; 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B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 21:10:20 -0000 > I have some other fairly serious nits about this document, but I believe > that the argument above is sufficient. I am opposed to adoption at this > stage, but look forward to reconsidering once dnssd has had a serious look > at the protocols. I didn't want the point of the previous mail to be diluted by a list of nits, so I've kept it short. Here are just some of the more serious issues I've noticed when doing a first read of the document. Please be aware that even if these issues were resolved, I would not necessarily support adoption. > 1. Introduction > o Provisioning of a domain name under which names can be published > and services advertised This document doesn't mention HNCP's mechanisms to do that. Either this document updates HNCP to not provision a domain name, in which case it should say so, or it relies on HNCP's mechanism, in which case it should say so. > 1. Some names may be published in a broader scope than others. This implies that the local and global publication mechanism are the same, which does not reflect WG consensus as far as I am aware. I've already mentioned on this list that I believe that local and global naming should use different mechanisms -- by merging the two, you're converting two tractable problems into one that is difficult. > 6. Homenet explicitly supports multihoming--connecting to more than > one Internet Service Provider--and therefore support for multiple > provisioning domains [6] is required to deal with situations > where the DNS may give a different answer depending on whether > caching resolvers at one ISP or another are queried. This implies that mpvd is the preferred mechanism. As far as I know, this does not reflect WG consensus. > 3.1. Configuring Resolvers > Hosts on the homenet receive a set of resolver IP addresses using > either DHCP or RA. IPv4-only hosts will receive IPv4 addresses of > resolvers, if available, over DHCP. IPv6-only hosts will receive > resolver IPv6 addresses using either stateful (if available) or > stateless DHCPv6, or through the domain name option in router > advertisements. All homenet routers provide resolver information > using both stateless DHCPv6 and RA; support for stateful DHCPv6 and > DHCPv4 is optional, however if either service is offered, resolver > addresses will be provided using that mechanism as well. Either this restates the requirements in RFC 7788, in which case it must say so, or it updates RFC 7788, in which case it must say in what way. > every HNR is required to provide name resolution service. I do not believe that this reflects WG consensus. (Speaking as the author of shncpd -- I think it's a bad idea.) > 3.3. Resolution of local names > IP addresses and names advertised locally MUST use addresses in the > homenet's ULA prefix and/or RFC1918 prefix. I do not understand this requirement. Is it about direct or reverse resolution? > Homenet hybrid proxies MUST filter out global IP addresses, providing > only ULA addresses, Is this a restatement of the requirement above, or is it a new requirement? > Artificial link names will be generated using HNCP. These should only > be visible to the user in graphical user interfaces in the event that > the same name is claimed by a service on two links. It is not our job to standardise the behaviour of GUIs. If such advice is desired, it should go into an informative appendix. > 3.5. Support for Multiple Provisioning Domains > Homenets must support the Multiple Provisioning Domain Architecture [6]. As mentioned at the beginning of this mail, this does not represent WG consensus. > In order to support this architecture, each homenet router that > provides name resolution must provide one resolver for each > provisioning domain (PvD). Each homenet router will advertise one > resolver IP address for each PvD. So not only does this document require having a DNS proxy on each router, but it actually requires a complex form of split horizon. I believe the WG should think the consequences very carefully before committing to such a path. (Speaking as the author of shncpd -- this is out of the question as far as I'm concerned.) > When queries are made to the homenet-PvD-specific resolver for names > that are not local to the homenet, the resolver will use a round-robin > technique, alternating between service providers with each step in the > round-robin process, This is exactly the wrong thing to do, since it makes the Homenet resolver as unreliable as the most unreliable of the providers' resolvers. -- Juliusz From nobody Sun Jul 30 18:21:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A54131CF7 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 18:20:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Vn0oMOzAB_C for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 18:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D417131CAA for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 18:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B1F2009E for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 21:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7508070B for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 21:20:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "homenet\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DBE0147@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <12743.1501435181@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 01:20:59 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim Chown wrote: > See Stuart=E2=80=99s deck from Prague for context: > https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/99/slides/slides-99-dnssd-dns-sd-upd= ate-and-new-work-items-00.pdf >> and then there is draft-ietf-mid-mpvd-ndp-support as a normative ref= erence. >> Will homenet will to adopt that too? >> >> So it seems that I have to read the other documents in detail before= I can >> make any clear opinion as to how this all fits together. >> (I think I've missed the last two homenet WG meetings due to conflic= ts; I >> should watch them on meetecho recording to learn more I guess) > It turned out that only 4 people had time to read them for Prague. > The interesting twist is the pushback on multicast for future specs. > I agree it=E2=80=99s early for an adoption call, likewise for the dra= ft-sctl-* > drafts in dnssd. Actually, if the relevant draft-sctl-* drafts were clearly about to adopted by dnssd, then I would have no problem with the timing of the adoption call. (I don't know: I'm truly ignorant here. I can't read every ML and attend every WG session, sadly) The document does not, as Juliuz says, define a protocol, but it does provi= de a clear profile on how to use other work. I'm also fond of adopting a document as soon as it looks like the table of contents is sane :-) But, the question as to: > and then there is draft-ietf-mif-mpvd-ndp-support as a normative ref= erence. concerns me most. Unless it's in RFC-editor queue (it's not, it's expired!= ), I'm pretty sure it's a very much normative reference. So Homenet needs an answer as to how to deal with this dependancy. It seems that we'd need to adopt it, copy and paste the text into this document, or reboot MIF... =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAll+hfgACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUqLwf+KAQperSa64Rc1yEipW1pkP1rlC4xCACNRceUbgVT52a/VaZUnIAvwg53 4kKy012ER1e8NZ8o/FgIXI/6eFmWPKdHN3vsJ1PnvyTEGeKadzmhwRWTXgFRPF4d g3FETEki58AGd5PiJv9Zg+NiPJjZpn/15NzeBi72iV9+KkWfgakpZPFF1QJund8V WRX/cw4wFGevfJfIkr11LQvKpVdTxEV8+ntlzWsQnAJX9hymZZET3wed/7SrtJqb WjF39+4cFwCvGbDSRJamYgp6ofL4/OMB+Fz9UCsZjELrBp059Z3Syov9B2QHXnNa vhtsBHga4kWY35woofBBeQomUIzCTg== =s6If -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Jul 30 22:02:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C5F1120724 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 22:02:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ik5l2XyBLaXw for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 22:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [149.20.64.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C69C126CC4 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2017 22:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76B80349687 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:02:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6922F160048 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:02:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBEE16004F for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:02:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id JkpFKt3qSiBY for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:02:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F2347160048 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:02:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A431806F1C2 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:02:06 +1000 (AEST) To: homenet@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 28 Jul 2017 13:11:02 -0700." <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:02:06 +1000 Message-Id: <20170731050206.1A431806F1C2@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:02:13 -0000 DNSSEC describes the delegation as "insecure". Old: In addition, it's necessary, for compatibility with DNSSEC (Section 6), that an unsigned delegation be present for the name. There is an existing process for allocating names under '.arpa' [RFC3172]. No such process is available for requesting a similar delegation in the root at the request of the IETF, which does not administer that zone. As a result, the use of '.home' is deprecated. New: In addition, it's necessary, for compatibility with DNSSEC (Section 6), that an insecure delegation be present for the name. There is an existing process for allocating names under '.arpa' [RFC3172]. No such process is available for requesting a similar delegation in the root at the request of the IETF, which does not administer that zone. As a result, the use of '.home' is deprecated. Paragraph 5 doesn't read well and won't match reality once the insecure delegation of home.arpa is in place. 5. No special processing of 'home.arpa.' is required for authoritative DNS server implementations. It is possible that an authoritative DNS server might attempt to check the authoritative servers for 'home.arpa.' for a delegation beneath that name before answering authoritatively for such a delegated name. In such a case, because the name always has only local significance there will be no such delegation in the 'home.arpa.' zone, and so the server would refuse to answer authoritatively for such a zone. A server that implements this sort of check MUST be configurable so that either it does not do this check for the 'home.arpa.' domain, or it ignores the results of the check. The delegatation is INSECURE and SIGNED not UNSIGNED. The wording here is *important*. Old: 7. Delegation of 'home.arpa.' In order to be fully functional, there must be a delegation of 'home.arpa.' in the '.arpa.' zone [RFC3172]. This delegation MUST NOT be signed, MUST NOT include a DS record, and MUST point to one or more black hole servers, for example 'blackhole-1.iana.org.' and 'blackhole-2.iana.org.'. The reason that this delegation must not be signed is that not signing the delegation breaks the DNSSEC chain of trust, which prevents a validating stub resolver from rejecting names published under 'home.arpa.' on a homenet name server. New: 7. Delegation of 'home.arpa.' In order to be fully functional, there must be a delegation of 'home.arpa.' in the '.arpa.' zone [RFC3172]. This delegation MUST be insecure, MUST NOT include a DS record, and MUST point to one or more black hole servers, for example 'blackhole-1.iana.org.' and 'blackhole-2.iana.org.'. The reason that this delegation must be insecure is that it breaks the DNSSEC chain of trust, which prevents a validating stub resolver from rejecting names published under 'home.arpa.' on a homenet name server. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Mon Jul 31 02:36:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0D5613204B for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:36:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w7VgUISacRdt for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22d.google.com (mail-qt0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50C58132046 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id s6so114682154qtc.1 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:36:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=bm6jWiypS2SasYqfFwajGYeSqNMC7D8zrOXSBiXYhEU=; b=q+OoyGIQGApf/vOJeonVHnRf+/QfqwHIMDs2qWOURVMqJMINPlQyWYhwE8R1HOM1nl vBp7GDiZkawhRrVvoH5aPwNQcNscT+NPv3NYMipX6Cg/4kRFComFPwBeqDYzePYDEhqU y2GuHLIH6aNxGNjSAUvvT2/HMKH19ANX3RjR6L/5Sm3C8kX6o5om7hawiusWqC0IxNdB SzM/0P9/AnK04cu9TJGOhP7s+VQXcNzJ9w6W8tKP5A9YrKovvVW16oxx6N+1fuZF2APZ PBlnxpWHHGaEcsrdfHsAjdZVcdNnCZnIrrqnOv0Vp58/K78YknS+iCAGuPqb8tgTeF+s 44yg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=bm6jWiypS2SasYqfFwajGYeSqNMC7D8zrOXSBiXYhEU=; b=OGw7ffbFPmg6qCg81+ko5DUr9iZC2hWFn9i+Jsb4TWa2/+6Tt4aDhEuipnlIIlj/oU sI/6uY7RxEMrz97fo7wytMKx+B7FusXLoJt2m66ZFrlTIqxZihMW9L53qzS7+DXsRQX8 E5Huy2CerqCwl5IuwSxL0Szb3Eia9/iJ5Rlrf1pIgO2WIji3LZ3woqzsHJFxEedZ7sip 8vT7WeoOp4w9D6O6cOJti7mGEksU/DdFE6V5a0M5SjgrJIEggmBXxZ/051Er2m8ezRjE X+9Fz0wPngNxE+8F57X4v94bWUu3ngB5tS+RASd00AGoOZhIJ4NZ/clLeJ+MhCv7mGBw ZfoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110RpsEgTkULF7QJx11Vz4pfHuC8WAEGis8cFVoOO7fCOY3ObR+o HB3UB7w7NYbJC5BX X-Received: by 10.200.55.53 with SMTP id o50mr21288285qtb.211.1501493801369; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.153] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y16sm17036638qth.82.2017.07.31.02.36.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:36:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <916EEEB9-3709-492B-8E19-5C832B11AFC2@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B852ADDF-C0CE-4072-9896-BBA0550326EF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:36:39 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20170731050206.1A431806F1C2@rock.dv.isc.org> Cc: homenet@ietf.org To: Mark Andrews References: <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> <20170731050206.1A431806F1C2@rock.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:36:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B852ADDF-C0CE-4072-9896-BBA0550326EF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 1:02 AM, Mark Andrews wrote: > The delegatation is INSECURE and SIGNED not UNSIGNED. The wording > here is *important*. Can you explain what the distinction is, and what the problem is that = you see in point five? The reason I ask is that we explicitly changed = the wording from "insecure" to "not signed" because someone else said = that it wasn't clear what "insecure" meant. It seems to me that the = current language is explicit and unambigious; I think this is better = than being "correct." So what is the bad outcome that might occur as a = result of using the term "not signed" rather than "insecure"? --Apple-Mail=_B852ADDF-C0CE-4072-9896-BBA0550326EF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 1:02 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> = wrote:
The delegatation is = INSECURE and SIGNED not UNSIGNED.  The wording
here is = *important*.

Can you explain what the distinction is, and what the problem = is that you see in point five?   The reason I ask is that we = explicitly changed the wording from "insecure" to "not signed" because = someone else said that it wasn't clear what "insecure" meant.   It = seems to me that the current language is explicit and unambigious; I = think this is better than being "correct."   So what is the bad = outcome that might occur as a result of using the term "not signed" = rather than "insecure"?

= --Apple-Mail=_B852ADDF-C0CE-4072-9896-BBA0550326EF-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 02:53:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C04131FFE for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:53:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w04H-S2uOahR for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x234.google.com (mail-qt0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 314A3131FFD for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x234.google.com with SMTP id a18so86728592qta.0 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:53:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=5rpaMnvcGbhvUJtuI8oHG09vlsx8MlUfMgNJzDYkfes=; b=RpCKqqKjnlw2IcFRdVrEFny+eW6XqK8tGdGgHmNEmP+95oyfT1tP/3JsPZscpjzRqM 7TsQ35FkWRqYvEEwCnRxghqwgkEPf/Fetly4j/wr1kLejIIdRf2Iv7kM70E8weJC7nMv 1hoRb0KLUpW5QIecmbff3GtRNZX4tjDRtEdYZx3ADOhZwgx3OzWLXkCmcZLQuxOh29lv QCwZ2q9UJMuipAQGCRCuWhAGdY8eFqgrv8l1bqIbT6iuqzXosStQrPHyJg2wB3NegiUq c3h8PFPNJDaxrLbFDv9/VCYjy725AIN6YFQaYKqSO+YnhErUjzWXKsteh96GuLx/DiNB S/TA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=5rpaMnvcGbhvUJtuI8oHG09vlsx8MlUfMgNJzDYkfes=; b=NJZylYV5Cf4jCht0Hiswld33g2bOECRUhEHKsjJrf+dZTiwcRXwdc+06SKuZDzjc+k i1LhQAQS9NWASpbxTecRB2n7UeXhhRcVDOAlWhBD7oho8IlY9I7grGuFjba0CrHcvkUe snlm02X9pYAUh2wYGs5vHaPN7xuiCY46qkWoTOXROq5KzzybW+X22xB2HFINezcBdQS0 FojYkTHClA5ArgXsUZq+yaQh9nr7VeK9t1wZjjZ4TiSzLCnd7dQBanVdSC6k+fU/SJb+ eW3q3fXUAevDzoZc/tWiUtsldBWTevpIAlZBHzxPl3keoVCmEar8uokKyzsDy2lFPoKI 1iQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110J3qIPODBu3/3RIVQIed01brYvH4J5gRNn//zvV4Ql0eEUsi7Q ctzEYxhkBiCDCVeQgAcaXg== X-Received: by 10.200.8.20 with SMTP id u20mr20079555qth.4.1501494789235; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.153] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z192sm19362176qka.46.2017.07.31.02.53.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:53:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FA097AAA-1F5F-48DD-8875-9C1BDBAA69AF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:53:07 -0400 In-Reply-To: <6265.1501464056@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" To: Michael Richardson References: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DBE0147@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <12743.1501435181@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <6265.1501464056@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:53:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FA097AAA-1F5F-48DD-8875-9C1BDBAA69AF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Jul 30, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >> and then there is draft-ietf-mif-mpvd-ndp-support as a normative = reference. >=20 > concerns me most. Unless it's in RFC-editor queue (it's not, it's = expired!), > I'm pretty sure it's a very much normative reference. So Homenet = needs an > answer as to how to deal with this dependancy. It seems that we'd = need to > adopt it, copy and paste the text into this document, or reboot MIF... There was widespread agreement in INTAREA to adopt this: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bruneau-intarea-provisioning-domains-02 = I actually intended to reference this=E2=80=94I just got my wires = crossed because google gave me the link to the other one, which as you = say is dead. The current rev of the homenet naming architecture is pretty thin=E2=80=94= I put a lot of work into the dnssd stuff, because I wanted to have it = pretty solid before referencing it in the MPVD architecture document. = If you weren't in homenet, it might indeed be worth reviewing my = presentation in the meetecho. Stuart's presentation in dnssd might = also be worth reviewing. Anyway, a consequence of the emphasis on the dnssd work is that I had = about an hour to update the naming architecture document before the = submission deadline, and the update is minimal, to be as charitable as = possible. Daniel wanted to do another update, but we needed to sync up first, and = I don't know where he is at with that now, but I think it would be = reasonable to put the CFA on hold pending that update. There have been = some good comments already, though; in particular, I think Juliusz' = point that it would be nice to actually try some of this in practice is = good, and is what I'm working on now. I think having that done before = the document is adopted is a pretty high bar, but I don't really care = either way. That said, what I said in the working group is that we've been spinning = our wheels on this for several years, and I wanted to know if the scope = of this is reasonable and is what the working group wants to take on. = If it's not, then I don't actually know how to proceed. (BTW, Juliusz, yes, HNCP is where the domain name is agreed upon.) --Apple-Mail=_FA097AAA-1F5F-48DD-8875-9C1BDBAA69AF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On Jul 30, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
and then there is = draft-ietf-mif-mpvd-ndp-support as a normative reference.

concerns me most. =  Unless it's in RFC-editor queue (it's not, it's = expired!),
I'm pretty sure it's a very much = normative reference.  So Homenet needs an
answer as to how to deal with this dependancy. =  It seems that we'd need to
adopt it, copy and = paste the text into this document, or reboot = MIF...

There was widespread agreement in INTAREA to adopt = this:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bruneau-intarea-provisioning-= domains-02

I= actually intended to reference this=E2=80=94I just got my wires crossed = because google gave me the link to the other one, which as you say is = dead.

The = current rev of the homenet naming architecture is pretty thin=E2=80=94I = put a lot of work into the dnssd stuff, because I wanted to have it = pretty solid before referencing it in the MPVD architecture document. =   If you weren't in homenet, it might indeed be worth reviewing my = presentation in the meetecho.   Stuart's presentation in dnssd = might also be worth reviewing.

Anyway, a consequence of the emphasis = on the dnssd work is that I had about an hour to update the naming = architecture document before the submission deadline, and the update is = minimal, to be as charitable as possible.

Daniel wanted to do another update, but = we needed to sync up first, and I don't know where he is at with that = now, but I think it would be reasonable to put the CFA on hold pending = that update.   There have been some good comments already, though; = in particular, I think Juliusz' point that it would be nice to actually = try some of this in practice is good, and is what I'm working on now. =   I think having that done before the document is adopted is a = pretty high bar, but I don't really care either way.

That said, what I said = in the working group is that we've been spinning our wheels on this for = several years, and I wanted to know if the scope of this is reasonable = and is what the working group wants to take on.   If it's not, then = I don't actually know how to proceed.

(BTW, Juliusz, yes, HNCP is where the = domain name is agreed upon.)

= --Apple-Mail=_FA097AAA-1F5F-48DD-8875-9C1BDBAA69AF-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 03:00:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA11132069 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 03:00:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LOI58sqtcv9Q for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 03:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.portfast.net (hydrogen.portfast.net [188.246.200.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD217132059 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 03:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [46.227.151.81] (port=53362 helo=rays-mbp.local) by hydrogen.portfast.net ([188.246.200.2]:465) with esmtpsa (fixed_plain:ray@bellis.me.uk) (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1dc7Uq-0001Ho-Ci (Exim 4.72) for homenet@ietf.org (return-path ); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:00:20 +0100 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DBE0147@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <12743.1501435181@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <6265.1501464056@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: Ray Bellis Message-ID: <6ff80652-8dfc-3a1f-882b-1e4089133515@bellis.me.uk> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:00:20 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:00:24 -0000 On 31/07/2017 10:53, Ted Lemon wrote: > Daniel wanted to do another update, but we needed to sync up first, and > I don't know where he is at with that now, but I think it would be > reasonable to put the CFA on hold pending that update. There have been > some good comments already, though; in particular, I think Juliusz' > point that it would be nice to actually try some of this in practice is > good, and is what I'm working on now. I think having that done before > the document is adopted is a pretty high bar, but I don't really care > either way. > > That said, what I said in the working group is that we've been spinning > our wheels on this for several years, and I wanted to know if the scope > of this is reasonable and is what the working group wants to take on. > If it's not, then I don't actually know how to proceed. The point of a CFA is not to have a document that's nearly ready to publish. It's to get agreement that a document is an appropriate direction for the WG to explore, even if it might require substantial work. As part of that, adoption also cedes change control from the authors to the WG. I'd therefore like to leave this in place for now, and request that reviewers re-examine it bearing the above in mind. thanks, Ray From nobody Mon Jul 31 04:36:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66650132161 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 04:36:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fzErqNO22i9Y for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 04:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39E9413215F for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 04:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v6VBa7Mr009170; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:36:10 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF05EB2F8; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:36:07 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id esCmfv_zAZuh; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:36:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7DB93EB2CC; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:36:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:36:03 +0200 Message-ID: <87zibket3w.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DBE0147@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <12743.1501435181@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <6265.1501464056@obiwan.sandelman.ca> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:36:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 597F1627.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 597F1627.002 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 597F1627.002 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:36:14 -0000 > I wanted to know if the scope of this is reasonable and is what the > working group wants to take on. I think the scope of this is too wide. It tries to solve a number of different problems: 1. naming within the Homenet; 2. publishing names of Homenet nodes outside the Homenet; 3. resolving names outside the Homenet in the presence of multiple providers; 4. announcing multiple providers' naming spaces when the providers provide inconsistent information. My gut feeling is that if you insist on a single protocol that solves all four, you'll end up with more complexity than if you solve each problem on its own. > If it's not, then I don't actually know how to proceed. I suggest picking just one problem and solving it. (1) in the above list would be the obvious choice. -- Juliusz From nobody Mon Jul 31 05:09:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334B3131FB6 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:09:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CofRlsng3fmb for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22a.google.com (mail-pg0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E56C713217A for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id v189so8115962pgd.2 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:09:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=48Jj1GOoknhm73ZL6V7EL9w6ddJph2twXLy0VSV0Jsc=; b=VBgGFOOUxDaZ7iL8T7GkKduTmq8xkM/fvXJcpwvau920yOF8r2CrbIiYqUJz3g1Yi2 Pz1Ww0uxvI9Hs+HEGWkBOPSOJa78Qv2hjziKVTMbfo8L+4a51NnuxIq0zTGtAAqjPtAX ZSQXJjU/fZgBVKq7jYBzPj3ZzGy2+S4HDHhMq47jjvt4B9Uy7Kz2zHQkEztZ+0JUE5Ba l12bC1mXoGYhqqE1yqxcRvQq8GXIljkYE7RMk9EFqPxZBPwmQneJR6jzaX/kOBSGGG8l +Ld2+l6/x+rMLxMBwsim5hvGsbQ4Cqw4kgsKaEPttasUMBLPlp2FF2lnR7gJ2EdOhqpg 0rqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=48Jj1GOoknhm73ZL6V7EL9w6ddJph2twXLy0VSV0Jsc=; b=ektZ6QE1gEWIoHsXjOIOCGEwyJ+WKSh29eOr7UYEr4G+n1bLNpQmH4zj5VbvnjCgB8 l6+Un8dNXenU/AvbLL7SumKiT6GWVZCnU1YY2mOp8QlXJBJ4BLw0Pf2AU6NsdFMVHQwk 1y1nHVF/kQFdOL3Cj7CRGxRtW8uQ5oG1viPTN5xEn0kSc1HsPNeTJh/eSGJPgS+yCUML SEBBTmMEtkIN0uJYN5Q/4I80EuqKVMpeKgukfpbMOEkZU6TzdHQpjSIqp4lW0Ah+dOUk j8/dqpdX5V87hemRRe+FtEEIO+dEvjP0YkcQm8XlYd/91C9+nztdi+9UgkscyCxK670A 4EeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112Ctem20kjMMvWlySJ3dq2MFqMHhxH2HvBODc2+ac0wAQEFTtEz drYnIvqRF5922MRLCpDkeAZvFIcfHxQO X-Received: by 10.99.56.68 with SMTP id h4mr15244517pgn.52.1501502948412; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:09:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.180.131 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.180.131 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:09:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87zibket3w.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DBE0147@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <12743.1501435181@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <6265.1501464056@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <87zibket3w.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Ted Lemon Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:09:07 -0400 Message-ID: To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: HOMENET Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045d33f2dea48d05559be528" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:09:13 -0000 --f403045d33f2dea48d05559be528 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is an architecture document, not a protocol specification. On Jul 31, 2017 7:36 AM, "Juliusz Chroboczek" wrote: > > I wanted to know if the scope of this is reasonable and is what the > > working group wants to take on. > > I think the scope of this is too wide. It tries to solve a number of > different problems: > > 1. naming within the Homenet; > 2. publishing names of Homenet nodes outside the Homenet; > 3. resolving names outside the Homenet in the presence of multiple > providers; > 4. announcing multiple providers' naming spaces when the providers > provide inconsistent information. > > My gut feeling is that if you insist on a single protocol that solves all > four, you'll end up with more complexity than if you solve each problem on > its own. > > > If it's not, then I don't actually know how to proceed. > > I suggest picking just one problem and solving it. (1) in the above list > would be the obvious choice. > > -- Juliusz > --f403045d33f2dea48d05559be528 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is an architecture document, not a protocol specific= ation.=C2=A0

On Jul 31, 2017 7:36 AM, "Juliusz Chroboczek" <jch@irif.fr> wrote:
> I wanted to know if the scope of this is reaso= nable and is what the
> working group wants to take on.

I think the scope of this is too wide.=C2=A0 It tries to solve a number of<= br> different problems:

=C2=A0 1. naming within the Homenet;
=C2=A0 2. publishing names of Homenet nodes outside the Homenet;
=C2=A0 3. resolving names outside the Homenet in the presence of multiple p= roviders;
=C2=A0 4. announcing multiple providers' naming spaces when the provide= rs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provide inconsistent information.

My gut feeling is that if you insist on a single protocol that solves all four, you'll end up with more complexity than if you solve each problem= on
its own.

> If it's not, then I don't actually know how to proceed.

I suggest picking just one problem and solving it.=C2=A0 (1) in the above l= ist
would be the obvious choice.

-- Juliusz
--f403045d33f2dea48d05559be528-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 05:22:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF97B1321B2 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:22:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.32 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.32 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jisc.ac.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VGiSO32iODT3 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com [146.101.78.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 404FD13219C for ; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:22:13 -0000 SGksDQoNCknigJlkIHJlY29tbWVuZCBwZW9wbGUgd2hvIGFyZSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIHRoaXMg dG9waWMgcmVhZCBkcmFmdC1jaGVzaGlyZS1kbnNzZC1yb2FkbWFwLTAwLCB3aGljaCB5b3UgbWln aHQgbWlzcyBpZiBqdXN0IGxvb2tpbmcgYXQgdGhlIGRyYWZ0LXNjdGwtKiBkcmFmdHMuDQoNClRp bQ0KDQo+IE9uIDMxIEp1bCAyMDE3LCBhdCAxMzowOSwgVGVkIExlbW9uIDxtZWxsb25AZnVndWUu Y29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+IFRoaXMgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIGRvY3VtZW50LCBub3Qg YSBwcm90b2NvbCBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uLiANCj4gDQo+IE9uIEp1bCAzMSwgMjAxNyA3OjM2IEFN LCAiSnVsaXVzeiBDaHJvYm9jemVrIiA8amNoQGlyaWYuZnI+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+IEkgd2FudGVk IHRvIGtub3cgaWYgdGhlIHNjb3BlIG9mIHRoaXMgaXMgcmVhc29uYWJsZSBhbmQgaXMgd2hhdCB0 aGUNCj4gPiB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIHdhbnRzIHRvIHRha2Ugb24uDQo+IA0KPiBJIHRoaW5rIHRo ZSBzY29wZSBvZiB0aGlzIGlzIHRvbyB3aWRlLiAgSXQgdHJpZXMgdG8gc29sdmUgYSBudW1iZXIg b2YNCj4gZGlmZmVyZW50IHByb2JsZW1zOg0KPiANCj4gICAxLiBuYW1pbmcgd2l0aGluIHRoZSBI b21lbmV0Ow0KPiAgIDIuIHB1Ymxpc2hpbmcgbmFtZXMgb2YgSG9tZW5ldCBub2RlcyBvdXRzaWRl IHRoZSBIb21lbmV0Ow0KPiAgIDMuIHJlc29sdmluZyBuYW1lcyBvdXRzaWRlIHRoZSBIb21lbmV0 IGluIHRoZSBwcmVzZW5jZSBvZiBtdWx0aXBsZSBwcm92aWRlcnM7DQo+ICAgNC4gYW5ub3VuY2lu ZyBtdWx0aXBsZSBwcm92aWRlcnMnIG5hbWluZyBzcGFjZXMgd2hlbiB0aGUgcHJvdmlkZXJzDQo+ ICAgICAgcHJvdmlkZSBpbmNvbnNpc3RlbnQgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24uDQo+IA0KPiBNeSBndXQgZmVl bGluZyBpcyB0aGF0IGlmIHlvdSBpbnNpc3Qgb24gYSBzaW5nbGUgcHJvdG9jb2wgdGhhdCBzb2x2 ZXMgYWxsDQo+IGZvdXIsIHlvdSdsbCBlbmQgdXAgd2l0aCBtb3JlIGNvbXBsZXhpdHkgdGhhbiBp ZiB5b3Ugc29sdmUgZWFjaCBwcm9ibGVtIG9uDQo+IGl0cyBvd24uDQo+IA0KPiA+IElmIGl0J3Mg bm90LCB0aGVuIEkgZG9uJ3QgYWN0dWFsbHkga25vdyBob3cgdG8gcHJvY2VlZC4NCj4gDQo+IEkg c3VnZ2VzdCBwaWNraW5nIGp1c3Qgb25lIHByb2JsZW0gYW5kIHNvbHZpbmcgaXQuICAoMSkgaW4g dGhlIGFib3ZlIGxpc3QNCj4gd291bGQgYmUgdGhlIG9idmlvdXMgY2hvaWNlLg0KPiANCj4gLS0g SnVsaXVzeg0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f Xw0KPiBob21lbmV0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBob21lbmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8v d3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaG9tZW5ldA0KDQo= From nobody Mon Jul 31 07:07:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4041322E3 for ; 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Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:07:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "homenet@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <150124709279.25258.15094387920433065465.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DBE0147@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <12743.1501435181@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <6265.1501464056@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:07:49 -0400 Message-ID: <19178.1501510069@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] The HOMENET WG has placed draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:07:53 -0000 Ted Lemon wrote: > to put the CFA on hold pending that update. There have been some good > comments already, though; in particular, I think Juliusz' point that it > would > be nice to actually try some of this in practice is good, and is what > I'm We require interoperable implementations for Internet Standard, not to adopt a document. Implementation reports would be good for WGLC, not here! We need to lower the bar here, not raise it. WGs can abandon documents too. > That said, what I said in the working group is that we've been spinning > our wheels on this for several years, and I wanted to know if the scope > of this is reasonable and is what the working group wants to take > on. If it's not, > then I don't actually know how to proceed. I think that it's the right approach, and given the sort out of the MVDP, I support adoption. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ From nobody Mon Jul 31 08:21:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA6A1132515 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:21:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QDm86Dd8GJpd for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C9041324EA for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20EBBE1DB for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:22:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B16880243 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:21:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: homenet@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] Ted's security talk at IETF99: DNCP Security X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:21:07 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain So I'm watching via meetecho the meeting. Some minor comment that it seems like many things have happened in homenet that haven't really been on the list. {Or maybe it was just DMARC vs ietf.org forwarding "helping" me. I've had to whitelist the ietf.org mail servers} The things that Ted wants, such "this the ID of the router", and the like, and this really the topic of the ANIMA BRSKI protocol. It can be profiled to work in Homenet, provided that HNCP can elect a registrar. I think that is entirely workable, btw. I don't think that Homenet has to invent any protocols here. Is there a document for this Ted? I will offer to help. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAll/St0ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWsgQf/aPy4Wp+n2jxaCL2tBll2EdQcBsTteQKy4MYRrCHmOkr+RJkgW3XkSfrN WiLkSwPuBi3DvQUPbLKCiClEV3T2sZbIZ4aQ8X5Q+6eXnkenUDJUP48ddErjK4Hj +xoyzvPV1eNqjLFdWQU8nTd7NUMAEfdixaPsu4pSeitR7+CXWuWebtuqTp2y86ti U68mZ94mf0x8Ij/soefeOeY346pYc6tGhDDSXS8v5NkLwM0LLMoMPk4vYP3V1Hfl 6N/V7Fbcqni63ktPwt3u1WwDcAIWeNMSd/qjdsxBx10yMq5ejh7T9iJ2D3Ou2Yn9 iWyPv3eDBtlR5ijFL286TvwSwkPDuQ== =4YON -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 08:28:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611B9132504 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:28:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8dZIlfRkU-et for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x234.google.com (mail-qt0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E64901324D4 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x234.google.com with SMTP id p3so108147610qtg.2 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:28:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=zwMsJXdTPwZtLXDKVZ22I/LazxM/wOn111fYxfhAgss=; b=GzXM/TPu0nqFICgadIB2wZEZpWZyEylXIDzimmnfKbwT+mNNC5EMywAh/j3Pn9zcoX jFgqK1Tp5M/seLuCHbrnTTLPJni/sApvmOvkuMwfQVO8Lk5Lt1ONOh0i0LuiTHg95q2/ p2BJ0cjcJs9PugoJ40eCqh9W5FrAp15gwFEsHrNaAQCib7iMGcbeHVINmvTv2HIQ7LWL +7SOheFO1lUmPK4c6keu6UW4UZFS1rIMyJhYqMSZKUSsNpBIrn3anuiXri8WNdP66o+p Iuk/TbVavJe9S6to2VCxJFJniMuZ1tMOSJS7r9CL2wRR0DdKSZUG7Aul1LDVHTer+Z2L kGVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=zwMsJXdTPwZtLXDKVZ22I/LazxM/wOn111fYxfhAgss=; b=ZF8/nqSWhccfzDnBr3beSbHf8pZ/F6kxV6qbG5jgqg3GsTi9Bnc4OmIVCu6DL1VCZP QysNucNOxMaZeZ3/DzO2ogoB9RixaWcO4IRQ97rB+86djAUyfecTcq22kb0zEP5KneBQ 6UOOqIukgtF2Mry7R+/D0lkwgPla7EfpoAKWH5ZnAb1+df6HmsHj8qhpY27MfZ/k37d9 aq4TmNOHBuFAeIvK4IrC5/c9kzfz6MjULVj8nbsFcAh2C5o9VAsim70OcVKgD9q6JH/j SeN7voY4pM3OElcz77RnsbS3dZrNfX/j+sLP/++PHXtZLnWJI65rsi7fjTzXvwbN7IMe Tsvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1136E/RqnHT2x2UMqMASziUWLemTNVyqDy3tkv0Ze68FrXfcZyHP O76ldDHl0lmKaeEr X-Received: by 10.200.53.17 with SMTP id y17mr22724846qtb.207.1501514914059; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.153] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r19sm15466758qtr.25.2017.07.31.08.28.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:28:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <52E1C5A0-FC0E-46A5-9016-AA95FB3DC1CB@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_48DEE497-6B9E-4EE4-A35F-F9A930E520EE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:28:32 -0400 In-Reply-To: <3725.1501514462@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Cc: homenet@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <3725.1501514462@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Ted's security talk at IETF99: DNCP Security X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:28:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_48DEE497-6B9E-4EE4-A35F-F9A930E520EE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 11:21 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: > The things that Ted wants, such "this the ID of the router", and the = like, > and this really the topic of the ANIMA BRSKI protocol. It can be = profiled > to work in Homenet, provided that HNCP can elect a registrar. > I think that is entirely workable, btw. > I don't think that Homenet has to invent any protocols here. >=20 > Is there a document for this Ted? I will offer to help. Your help would be much appreciated, but I don't know why there would be = an election, so there's at a minimum some thinking to do there. There = is no document yet. Also, bear in mind that a vendor-centric approach to this probably isn't = going to work, because right now all the Homenet work I'm aware of is = happening on OpenWRT and LEDE. I'm sure that will change if we come up = with something vendors want to deploy, but it has to work for the = prototype case too. And there's no particular reason to think that a = PKI key from a vendor makes a device trustworthy. --Apple-Mail=_48DEE497-6B9E-4EE4-A35F-F9A930E520EE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 11:21 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
The things that Ted wants, such "this the = ID of the router", and the like,
and this really the = topic of the ANIMA BRSKI protocol.  It can be profiled
to work in Homenet, provided that HNCP can elect = a registrar.
I think that is entirely workable, = btw.
I don't think that Homenet has to invent = any protocols here.

Is there a document for this Ted?  I will = offer to help.

Your help would be much appreciated, but I don't know why = there would be an election, so there's at a minimum some thinking to do = there.   There is no document yet.

Also, bear in mind that a = vendor-centric approach to this probably isn't going to work, because = right now all the Homenet work I'm aware of is happening on OpenWRT and = LEDE.   I'm sure that will change if we come up with something = vendors want to deploy, but it has to work for the prototype case too. =   And there's no particular reason to think that a PKI key from a = vendor makes a device trustworthy.

= --Apple-Mail=_48DEE497-6B9E-4EE4-A35F-F9A930E520EE-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 08:42:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1BAE132580 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:42:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GJg7TmX-PfXm for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22d.google.com (mail-vk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FC50132579 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id r199so28401036vke.4 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eMEyy9C2YYPp51g/PGQrTvoDnbPRV+zRIz5WQefJylY=; b=dFglkmrNev33Xe0ByhynU4vRuFET1Fp9BqkjSy2Dlu4oChHNai5qKGKmhKsTWTYqdM cYWpKa76W7ak15piVAr8mUfF6KJdvgsyruVCgbEaTd6tBfYCaIpuF4dd2BupISpFvDQj g7G0HhsSrcpb2y02qKNBZEesl5cTAkAPpuGOUdPVIeBTY1k/MFAu9VzvBM6ayQsD1/SZ aTS7SoYxlfBfDWYkGYVNg2DbQElWG3iG9+dszwF8yxVBMw2U6cWBgeYpMixK5ZUwKm1u OUhFv39fWCbZgsnMYfQyZk6mYRzWqcKvBM1NtrkfN2X9G0EDy1+ognWPVkpBwzsiBx42 lMAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eMEyy9C2YYPp51g/PGQrTvoDnbPRV+zRIz5WQefJylY=; b=kBk78CN19129TmTWGinUu3UOal0SYMumTuW+qd4ijZrD/OAEUgwI+Hf33Y/7sGVtbl 6laC+JmzPxxOBujXpX2m/c1Rxvmt4axg4X08IvJV2sDO/W17dYX4hsYcqDTUVCxKY0BG OaTtJgikuozvQ4MIf9INOqgbiE3bpNBWUpxA1aWQ3nwKJPl1gALnXoMR/d1f7QBYqkFg 4h2YR/b3iUZWgJH9wsoGFDT2pbxyYs6JPn/nyhnXttQcvIPUE7pxlq8ubZBfazoI0nXB iSf5wTjNSvzKaxOqTQRmXkZBRvtKIHB9pTUl8Exx/gHoQQDEMuwZhLIpliuBZgmGS9g1 z/Jg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113yfJ0yCBRqHS/3C1YtlD/SsECPJQVgH2eWMahrw5c4+x2LPrYf kuFVF86hfMsTEcK/xXa1Iwubtg86BrGa X-Received: by 10.31.120.12 with SMTP id t12mr10151230vkc.29.1501515760494; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:42:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.9.231 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:42:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <916EEEB9-3709-492B-8E19-5C832B11AFC2@fugue.com> References: <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> <20170731050206.1A431806F1C2@rock.dv.isc.org> <916EEEB9-3709-492B-8E19-5C832B11AFC2@fugue.com> From: Warren Kumari Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:42:00 -0400 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Cc: Mark Andrews , homenet@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:42:48 -0000 On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 5:36 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Jul 31, 2017, at 1:02 AM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > The delegatation is INSECURE and SIGNED not UNSIGNED. The wording > here is *important*. > > > Can you explain what the distinction is, and what the problem is that you > see in point five? The reason I ask is that we explicitly changed the > wording from "insecure" to "not signed" because someone else said that it > wasn't clear what "insecure" meant. It seems to me that the current > language is explicit and unambigious; I think this is better than being > "correct." So what is the bad outcome that might occur as a result of > using the term "not signed" rather than "insecure"? Having recently had exactly this discussion with someone, this area is fraught with opportunities for misunderstandings. Let's take example.com as an example[0]. The .com zone is signed. Example Corp hired a DNS geek, who signed the example.com zone, but never quite got around to publishing a DS record in the parent. There is now a signed, insecure delegation to a signed zone; the delegation itself is signed (.com is a signed zone and so there there is an RRSIG for the NS for example.com), but there is no DS record, so it is insecure. It really is an insecure delegation, not an unsigned delegation -- calling it unsigned would be confusing to many people. The person I was discussing it with wasn't aware of the term "insecure delegation" and assumed that it meant an "unsigned delegation", which is, um, difficult to achieve in a non-NSEC3 OO zone... I spend an almost infinite amount of time[1] trying to explain this very point (to someone who understands DNSEEC) over the phone - it's tricky to communicate without a whiteboard and / or diagram. I ended up opening an issue on the terminology-bis document to get it added: https://github.com/DNSOP/draft-ietf-dnsop-terminology-bis/issues/26#issuecomment-314275871 W [0]: For the purpose of discussion, let's pretend that .COM uses NSEC, not NSEC3 with Opt-Out. [1]: Ok, perhaps it wasn't almost infinite, but it sure felt like it... > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Mon Jul 31 09:04:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E00E4132608 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:04:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0K9WiM4sjav4 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com (mail-qk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09D89131723 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id d136so154659452qkg.3 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:04:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=lPV4SsIwUanE87BwQDYKqBRQGOzjRdS0/rqYiHzIrRU=; b=sbFwQXuS+toC5y/4Kdtt2Lc9Z35JGfsAuSDphp4hxutC77Bj/oYoXuzOZVxkDbAg4Z qOAc1vEmSWDZ/zCKpBQdD670IK7HJXWYD/6657MgHVcRRhXDUg5kNFHH8BQpOLaoVQxL C3dv2AG5hsLYeqo2/mwRt9QVGStW3FQYR+85gfUnYi4bBHTiNTk/eW549ZwP6IXhAws3 g+kplPa8sfVgLlUJYPIw9xuynYQTSAENlfw9DbsvN8xhVp0z44yYw8CnnG7hEBIqg9dV b7eGIqnmd4H9VofKkoDuXSvQU7EdxqUip109D3xL59WrGTVWaSUt+C9HgJGXLYfBnWHD QaiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=lPV4SsIwUanE87BwQDYKqBRQGOzjRdS0/rqYiHzIrRU=; b=S5FG/YVGAIqAXE1swo1BvZWDMXhT3ezIvl3nipYtpqGNgrxRrDRIB7RuoQVfmW9IhX ddGzi3IjXXVDtwcHyuERwjsAi9ca7rlXJ1IEkOxdy/Fgi6Lay/VI8vb6aYyveDmZaCSC xTkG3WBNXryzX7d7wYJjPDrF02SMAdUbxOkhMjQQCaT3sEyMfgRu/DvJgkTdnotRwuuL STgxyJXYO2jjNWRfHrvVJQ8WzqxdwiMNdjSfS/IoIzcZl+jgfNeOUmaEoz18TFsBO3m7 WywIDDZiMdU3dvudTX+ApDXUTypKt6F0hi0HxSXosKl2n5cavoYUup3NaZpODOm9jpIp 60Yw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110GfQabyDKP1Lx1Tkygh9zNWYYNPkR6MZ9sjTTMYKKmnIDIyDCs vpDRUUPsmQHMnSG8 X-Received: by 10.55.27.83 with SMTP id b80mr20201278qkb.148.1501517052920; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.153] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q185sm19833904qkb.45.2017.07.31.09.04.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:04:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EE18DCB9-CB08-4BE7-8211-6792D9272063" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:04:10 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Mark Andrews , homenet@ietf.org To: Warren Kumari References: <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> <20170731050206.1A431806F1C2@rock.dv.isc.org> <916EEEB9-3709-492B-8E19-5C832B11AFC2@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 16:04:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EE18DCB9-CB08-4BE7-8211-6792D9272063 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 11:42 AM, Warren Kumari wrote: > It really is an insecure delegation, not an unsigned delegation -- > calling it unsigned would be confusing to many people. The person I > was discussing it with wasn't aware of the term "insecure delegation" > and assumed that it meant an "unsigned delegation", which is, um, > difficult to achieve in a non-NSEC3 OO zone... Ah, I wrote that text not imagining that .arpa was signed using good = old-fashioned NSEC, which was silly of me. That said, I would rather = not rely on interpretations of terminology the meaning of which isn't = agreed upon. I think it would be better to simply specify that there = will be no DS record. Does that make sense, or is there some reason = why we have to say "unsigned?" --Apple-Mail=_EE18DCB9-CB08-4BE7-8211-6792D9272063 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 11:42 AM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> = wrote:
It really is an = insecure delegation, not an unsigned delegation --
calling it unsigned would be confusing to many = people. The person I
was discussing it = with wasn't aware of the term "insecure delegation"
and assumed that it meant an "unsigned = delegation", which is, um,
difficult to = achieve in a non-NSEC3 OO zone...

Ah, I wrote that text not imagining that = .arpa was signed using good old-fashioned NSEC, which was silly of me. =   That said, I would rather not rely on interpretations of = terminology the meaning of which isn't agreed upon.   I think it = would be better to simply specify that there will be no DS record. =   Does that make sense, or is there some reason why we have to say = "unsigned?"

= --Apple-Mail=_EE18DCB9-CB08-4BE7-8211-6792D9272063-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 10:41:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47B7131C3C for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:41:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mNBfPOtOaWzK for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77A36131C7A for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B48AE1DC; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 349B3806BA; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:41:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Ted Lemon cc: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <52E1C5A0-FC0E-46A5-9016-AA95FB3DC1CB@fugue.com> References: <3725.1501514462@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <52E1C5A0-FC0E-46A5-9016-AA95FB3DC1CB@fugue.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Ted's security talk at IETF99: DNCP Security X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:41:58 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Ted Lemon wrote: mcr> Is there a document for this Ted? I will offer to help. > Your help would be much appreciated, but I don't know why there would > be an election, so there's at a minimum some thinking to do > there. There is no document yet. I think that we need to have a Registrar that issues certificates. ANIMA's BRSKI document automates much of this. That partly gets rid of the security exception on each access to the web interface: provided the web browser loads the new trust anchor. > Also, bear in mind that a vendor-centric approach to this probably isn't > going to work, because right now all the Homenet work I'm aware of is > happening on OpenWRT and LEDE. I'm sure that will change if we come up This is where all the other pairing mechanisms come into play. You mentioned having a laundry list of them. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAll/a+EACgkQgItw+93Q 3WX38Af/dbmC3v7jlYsIA899wmZs2lUFYpvvsd38zCfs2UoEaPJzlRVMn3++nA3d kApmMA9gFy2IxFZc1xVkmDa5S7QQReFrjpG3vOf5MBfx8nTgpppqCu3k5PeLxXGF lpn7Gl6UaC7PeAcZS0Y2zI7d6bsYHz8qFnptxtumLI75yC175iOSUUscYiUSX2Kj LaO7z0z7GYG266Fdmo/vAcvqyNXwA1JluQzDbD9hl8wZSuhrFtUsjeMD5lmCC/Mr 1LFWTN3ForKqO+jgbk6d3L7q95jGibOyIw03QFV1cf+c+nCA7da13Vk4kv1O25AG voDm2bQcZNfmWEfI6laq3ejSCnEGdQ== =ggh0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 11:00:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13FAE132740 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:00:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jELWyNwrb_pk for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6716C132743 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id u139so90550830qka.1 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:00:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=j+y/KjjsTn9NTjNkgQY/78IxUTg2lhmL73L0PQNAd30=; b=D344mWgfe2rFkQE4wMepiTGlGQw3NnNwaFofEJfpLvsGYlDWeRZqwPxYqB+c9OSrfW FZwWLwGO5JoH9tENI2a/kv99rwarvqRS8cTrIgeF+UD3ZpVk9BRBl57UbGErQjC3h8+6 LL8Mty4pt+K2HMAMKKIzK9yvRO4tusHw03Mj/0O+jXwiBaCK5U4kEYC7B9FXXQe4DpuK qycsSnVPi2BmfRuOLmzRHlyl+UYcgCjRZjjPR+qyQ/c0MdSe82WTxXIevP8v0oWFt9Lx R3Zf30VYMua17TUFYX9GvqUemMIPbhHlOACUaAuMCJ6a3w0Sn75Hkh62dXH/K/V0LrKR WRxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=j+y/KjjsTn9NTjNkgQY/78IxUTg2lhmL73L0PQNAd30=; b=Rxr7EE4t2INIzT90AJujrZMOOZTU0NpKcnlDkZ+MY630VH00ebUD2/wcSAhPzv9pud ymRCrRIWMwCVwi0FCgIRzuuq+zBVz/YEESWkaIQsleN4+l6fL2q/Z0+ge0P5JfEgT4OE Te2pCH8kHtWiiIC/a4AoIIom1jGUI5oc2iddSdePc+UflR8y6JTCN4gjjCP3oDniko19 i0v1oLqyk2dlele+uzI9y9asJPDUfRQW5/uaXvryeB3SGPI55+H4zyAggJnHMvejLuj2 r8NFN03ixiXtZERXWNcaYhRX9ItZwldjjRRj9t6O7P9jW39npamMyno+VRFwmXG2A+6O EQew== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110EKqqKqg+0EpzbAvhmgdZgAGVuuruY1aHbKFCNgzRLORPuUjHf 22L/w2gwgNa5xniI X-Received: by 10.55.74.133 with SMTP id x127mr20638502qka.9.1501524035346; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.153] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s18sm21559101qts.77.2017.07.31.11.00.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:00:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <5A407EA3-AC8B-44A7-8EC2-8242480027FE@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_24765BD2-FAFC-4A92-8972-08A407D6ADC4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:00:33 -0400 In-Reply-To: <3184.1501522914@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Cc: homenet@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <3725.1501514462@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <52E1C5A0-FC0E-46A5-9016-AA95FB3DC1CB@fugue.com> <3184.1501522914@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Ted's security talk at IETF99: DNCP Security X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:00:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_24765BD2-FAFC-4A92-8972-08A407D6ADC4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 1:41 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: > That partly gets rid of the security exception on each access to the > web interface: provided the web browser loads the new trust anchor. I don't know how to make that work without a fake domain tree. Can't = we just use ACME+letsencrypt.org ? > This is where all the other pairing mechanisms come into play. > You mentioned having a laundry list of them. Sure. The question is, what value does the PKI cert add here? I = agree that having a cert that validates is good for the web UI, but I = don't see how it helps in establishing trust. I would be tempted to do something like what Christian is doing with = DNSSD privacy: print a QR code on the box, take pictures of all the QR = codes with your smartphone, and then use your smartphone app to = bootstrap trust using those QR codes. You could do something similar = by just flashing the front panel LEDs really fast when the "pair" button = is pressed, and have the smartphone decode that, as is being done with = exfiltration malware now. I suspect there's code we could download... = :) --Apple-Mail=_24765BD2-FAFC-4A92-8972-08A407D6ADC4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 1:41 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
That partly gets rid of the security = exception on each access to the
web interface: = provided the web browser loads the new trust anchor.

I don't know how = to make that work without a fake domain tree.   Can't we just use = ACME+letsencrypt.org?

This is where all the other pairing = mechanisms come into play.
You mentioned = having a laundry list of them.

Sure.   The question is, what value does = the PKI cert add here?   I agree that having a cert that validates = is good for the web UI, but I don't see how it helps in establishing = trust.

I would = be tempted to do something like what Christian is doing with DNSSD = privacy: print a QR code on the box, take pictures of all the QR codes = with your smartphone, and then use your smartphone app to bootstrap = trust using those QR codes.   You could do something similar by = just flashing the front panel LEDs really fast when the "pair" button is = pressed, and have the smartphone decode that, as is being done with = exfiltration malware now.   I suspect there's code we could = download... :)

= --Apple-Mail=_24765BD2-FAFC-4A92-8972-08A407D6ADC4-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 11:22:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC8E132761 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:22:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mathemainzel.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2sw2hpg-Oq0i for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx23lb.world4you.com (mx23lb.world4you.com [81.19.149.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44C6213275E for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:22:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mathemainzel.info; s=dkim11; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=NnD8KRZYPG4oFHw2jf0CBJ5Mi3E10LOkkn8gsA3a5X4=; b=NsLSkWnQb1fKhxwbUG2yUVF/gNNkmSjp7G/6nwcSBMAOuRixG0sspU0Z4sK+Si5Vk1TnQm/B42SpnsSt2sSjh8RbQ9qGfvh9+0B42lsOsFef8M1nISIL3RtuE0hgXBASExLSp4k9nk0zArmnZb8ScnHoFbhQEwxA7JKKVUYhXtg=; Received: from [90.146.55.206] (helo=home.mail) by mx23lb.world4you.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dcFKI-0001E6-Tu for homenet@ietf.org; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:21:58 +0200 Message-ID: <597F7545.9000702@mathemainzel.info> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:21:57 +0200 From: "Walter H." Organization: Home User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (UNIX; U; Cray X-MP/48; en-US; rv:2.70) Gecko/20110929 Communicator/7.20 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: homenet@ietf.org References: <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms010400020603010406070206" X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-AV-Do-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 90.146.55.206 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: Walter.H@mathemainzel.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mx23lb.world4you.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:22:04 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms010400020603010406070206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 28.07.2017 22:11, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire= ctories. > This draft is a work item of the Home Networking WG of the IETF. > > Title : Special Use Domain 'home.arpa.' > Authors : Pierre Pfister > Ted Lemon > Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt > Pages : 9 > Date : 2017-07-28 > > Abstract: > This document specifies the behavior that is expected from the Doma= in > Name System with regard to DNS queries for names ending with > '.home.arpa.', and designates this domain as a special-use domain > name. 'home.arpa.' is designated for non-unique use in residential > home networks. Home Networking Control Protocol (HNCP) is updated = to > use the 'home.arpa.' domain instead of '.home'. Just a thought of mine, would it be possible to add a section, to make=20 it possible to get official SSL certificates for these 'home.arpa.' domains (for free= ), so there would not be the need of running a own PKI? 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[73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r49sm21792007qte.34.2017.07.31.11.33.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:33:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3514864F-1A74-44BA-AFF5-C293E7A1B7C7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:33:30 -0400 In-Reply-To: <597F7545.9000702@mathemainzel.info> Cc: homenet@ietf.org To: "Walter H." References: <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> <597F7545.9000702@mathemainzel.info> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:33:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3514864F-1A74-44BA-AFF5-C293E7A1B7C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 2:21 PM, Walter H. = wrote: > Just a thought of mine, would it be possible to add a section, to make = it possible > to get official SSL certificates for these 'home.arpa.' domains (for = free), > so there would not be the need of running a own PKI? I don't see how that could work. I agree that it's a problem in need = of a solution, but since home.arpa wouldn't be externally visible, you = couldn't use the fact that you can publish in a name in it to do the = ACME authentication. I was hoping to get IP-based certs, but it turns out that letsencrypt = (probably wisely) doesn't offer them. --Apple-Mail=_3514864F-1A74-44BA-AFF5-C293E7A1B7C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 2:21 PM, Walter H. <Walter.H@mathemainzel.info> wrote:
Just a thought of mine, would it be = possible to add a section, to make it possible
to get official SSL certificates for these = 'home.arpa.' domains (for free),
so there would not = be the need of running a own PKI?

I don't see how that could work.   I = agree that it's a problem in need of a solution, but since home.arpa = wouldn't be externally visible, you couldn't use the fact that you can = publish in a name in it to do the ACME authentication.

I was hoping to get = IP-based certs, but it turns out that letsencrypt (probably wisely) = doesn't offer them.

= --Apple-Mail=_3514864F-1A74-44BA-AFF5-C293E7A1B7C7-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 12:23:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85BD132620 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:23:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WpkxdaHmowQ2 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA364126B71 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447BFBE4C; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:22:59 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HsRmOsnpHvrM; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:22:53 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2C1C7BE39; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:22:53 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1501528973; bh=nkHhM7iMN4Lym5eKMCNHZglIFREWrnh0xzjWZ3+ln6Q=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=HK4q3KURjcFnEwvc37MX/4iWB2GNCGIjGLQcTSJZJIwog0S3gNg/LriDucm+a5SS7 B4J3dN0gJ3IfOm/fWyJSr5XhSCWEhmeZVQmp4NzL4rEd956LwRtPBHjN+OvfK8PImI 5wUPxJLqwoi9mhNnE9yCIsQ1n2fJ7FbJJIRZqYv0= To: Ted Lemon , Michael Richardson Cc: homenet@ietf.org References: <3725.1501514462@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <52E1C5A0-FC0E-46A5-9016-AA95FB3DC1CB@fugue.com> <3184.1501522914@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <5A407EA3-AC8B-44A7-8EC2-8242480027FE@fugue.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <6c9af76b-5d5c-3830-b0c2-9f7ddae9d565@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:22:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5A407EA3-AC8B-44A7-8EC2-8242480027FE@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2TtH8Nr3G7vxgJIO1v02NgI9fbC1PRj3f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Ted's security talk at IETF99: DNCP Security X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 19:23:04 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --2TtH8Nr3G7vxgJIO1v02NgI9fbC1PRj3f Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="uMKrh1HUgK7aa91qH9wcl65JpHwubjaH9"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Ted Lemon , Michael Richardson Cc: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <6c9af76b-5d5c-3830-b0c2-9f7ddae9d565@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [homenet] Ted's security talk at IETF99: DNCP Security References: <3725.1501514462@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <52E1C5A0-FC0E-46A5-9016-AA95FB3DC1CB@fugue.com> <3184.1501522914@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <5A407EA3-AC8B-44A7-8EC2-8242480027FE@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <5A407EA3-AC8B-44A7-8EC2-8242480027FE@fugue.com> --uMKrh1HUgK7aa91qH9wcl65JpHwubjaH9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 31/07/17 19:00, Ted Lemon wrote: > I don't know how to make that work without a fake domain tree. > Can't we just use ACME+letsencrypt.org ? I think the protocols would work fine, but I'm not sure there's a current challenge type that'd work here, for LE or any similar service. (The current set of challenges in the acme spec is at [1].) For my main home router (a Turris), I setup a VPN connection so that the AAAA for a name I control is routed to the Turris when the VPN is up, and then I just used acme.sh [1] to talk to LE and all that works just fine and gets rid of the annoying browser insecurity warning when I use luci. (I further cheat by only having that VPN up when I need to talk to LE for renewal checks and otherwise just resolve the name using 10/8 inside the home, but I'm sure there're better options.) So the plumbing/protocols all do work if you have a name and address that works from the CA service provider POV. It's just that almost nobody can do that today. Is this something where it'd be worth trying to get a few folks from the various communities on a call to see if we can come up with something that might work for the openwrt/lede type cases? If so, I'd be happy to try set that up in a month or so, when holliers are done and I'm supposedly gonna be a chair-like being:-) I'd be happy to try that even if the chances of a Eureka! moment aren't very high. (And btw, the reason I suggest that scope is that I figure commercial device vendors can figure out the cert issuance part just fine already, and with better assurance, but probably have the same issues with browser trust stores as do the openwrt/lede folks, so I'm not suggesting excluding commercial device vendors, just limiting the scope to stuff that could be worked on today by anyone if we did have that Eureka! moment.) Cheers, S. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-acme-acme-07#section-8 [2] https://github.com/Neilpang/acme.sh --uMKrh1HUgK7aa91qH9wcl65JpHwubjaH9-- --2TtH8Nr3G7vxgJIO1v02NgI9fbC1PRj3f Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZf4OMAAoJEC88hzaAX42iEVUIAJPPxFDidN7IZ3jZ25qmwNEG RIZZZiM2zkS/FsleHrsyuk/Aky9weCBwGusRCC1URiwYjlZkFm+162gCdhp52yab JcOu6W43DIvnoXxWlIjpLBYhCOPs+NmaG0uqqyFIifQtwbhxisHXQdQeNOXE9hff jNOPfu33OR/78zoyVtv2tHFNHersdXtJ5jkRiiLpxRg/QKAnx4wzlB+J4Q1feB2d QA0rCvkKgQOvTNa2zl1TBLorUER9xNd7v9pQRZAV0D/Berg2s1XjTA++hjb5Ejcj 67IxsKlezZhgd6+7IDuADZh99FJZZUFb6GJUtc4UjYEuXpeN+Ou/VnfVWTV7EhI= =HK7+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2TtH8Nr3G7vxgJIO1v02NgI9fbC1PRj3f-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 12:47:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1816A1326DD for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CPhiH3pfM3BQ for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com (mail-qk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2CD01327A3 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id x191so87542008qka.5 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:47:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=pqza+CQHPiviojNZGNFwC6NkDEB5pgduLCdWXdPoVL4=; b=v+xFwgD4l+/ljaKH6VXAOWeVESANFRKSyOOY0pNdxHMHz9FK25XdeEbVRieq/9shGm I+h5blfCGxUQgd2+C6DRojPtv3uBHYxD8Eggk9IC7CWUZgX5yUvVXi8TXRzfsRsb0mQt BhRZwnANTp4z4mLLsnIcizOGXcdeXwXWUawZyCYIvm2vpUgK2URthuKldXS7biHtJ5zj xa7bw7DSTp1LpH9AQ2lF+n8M+bz5yDL+vr3VuU4R/kacdax0e7yc414Dhrc5pAJqR5g8 ZB3+1bD9K9Aayq9h6D1s45GnQkj9CYesJnRmQxaj2IuV8ZCFLL1AlBpOsho3CXnXkhv6 KBvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=pqza+CQHPiviojNZGNFwC6NkDEB5pgduLCdWXdPoVL4=; b=ph+rqpxcK3FD44v/R7CCk1Z/YWZ/5f6/ulZowUc3a/zjWtyAFn7l91b8IMGJRYmM7t xaj4D3znY4gOXNcwXoZJgVxqGRqI/DTmBvZHJAlHi4hvqVsAxZYRYAtr8k8vSzF8BeiT xpxFJlerejaPdPzbE+/v+BlFDcKcje2VJnRAaknocnmgXDGJhl9aXrmCiHekUfhB6zPO VS6WVR8vmqPZVs0cyPd1SpNATV5cSr2T+TfQHhThA3tHeHqGgF4mivp9vDhgrpiVVfEn zpHq97uiwFTGYTC66+aDlAAqi40yR0prMslRqij9EsCIj/tDZpdMm/WeTi33r4Bv89Vl fRdQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111HLIbciZ0OuLEHPniki46RzV+bRqdB0B0WemLyDm8nnKRLmHeL sR7I882X+60Kwc+u7yHLOw== X-Received: by 10.55.58.71 with SMTP id h68mr22873055qka.169.1501530456051; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.153] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h47sm2189550qte.67.2017.07.31.12.47.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <6c9af76b-5d5c-3830-b0c2-9f7ddae9d565@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:47:34 -0400 Cc: Michael Richardson , homenet@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3725.1501514462@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <52E1C5A0-FC0E-46A5-9016-AA95FB3DC1CB@fugue.com> <3184.1501522914@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <5A407EA3-AC8B-44A7-8EC2-8242480027FE@fugue.com> <6c9af76b-5d5c-3830-b0c2-9f7ddae9d565@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Ted's security talk at IETF99: DNCP Security X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 19:47:39 -0000 On Jul 31, 2017, at 3:22 PM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: > So the plumbing/protocols all do work if you have a name and > address that works from the CA service provider POV. It's just > that almost nobody can do that today. >=20 > Is this something where it'd be worth trying to get a few folks > from the various communities on a call to see if we can come up > with something that might work for the openwrt/lede type cases? Yes. I actually suggested a design for solving this problem in an = earlier version of the homenet naming architecture document: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lemon-homenet-naming-architecture-00#sec= tion-4 I took this out in the -01 document because I was specifying something = that probably ought to be specified in a different document=E2=80=94I = just wanted to get it out there so that it wouldn't get patented. I = think this is something that could be done on a demonstration basis = right now (modulo figuring out all the steps in the process, which I = just sketched). From nobody Mon Jul 31 17:20:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2EF131CB1 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:20:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LKWiJBXm_u-S for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8897D131CAE for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E022009E; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C634A80243; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:20:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Ted Lemon cc: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5A407EA3-AC8B-44A7-8EC2-8242480027FE@fugue.com> References: <3725.1501514462@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <52E1C5A0-FC0E-46A5-9016-AA95FB3DC1CB@fugue.com> <3184.1501522914@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <5A407EA3-AC8B-44A7-8EC2-8242480027FE@fugue.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Ted's security talk at IETF99: DNCP Security X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 00:20:26 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Ted Lemon wrote: > That partly gets rid of the security exception on each access to the > web interface: provided the web browser loads the new trust anchor. > I don't know how to make that work without a fake domain tree. Can't we just > use ACME+letsencrypt.org? I hadn't thought about that. The objections I can think about involves three kinds of things: a) do they really want this kind of traffic? b) the certs issued will go into their cert transparency list, and I think that means we lose privacy. c) to make it work, they have to verify things. IPv6 makes the connectivity easy to arrange, but it seems like it's a big exposure for the device. We are talking more than just routers... I'm thinking printers and all sorts of things. > Sure. The question is, what value does the PKI cert add here? I agree that > having a cert that validates is good for the web UI, but I don't see how it > helps in establishing trust. It doesn't establish initial trust, it gives the user a trusted icon in their browser once we have initial trust. > I would be tempted to do something like what Christian is doing with DNSSD > privacy: print a QR code on the box, take pictures of all the QR codes with > your smartphone, and then use your smartphone app to bootstrap trust using > those QR codes. You could do something similar by just flashing the front > panel LEDs really fast when the "pair" button is pressed, and have the > smartphone decode that, as is being done with exfiltration malware now. I > suspect there's code we could download... :) I think that these are all really good ways to establish initial trust. BRSKI mentions the whole category at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-07#section-4.2 3. The Pledge MAY have an operational mode where it skips Voucher validation one time. For example if a physical button is depressed during the bootstrapping operation. This can be useful if the vendor service is unavailable. This behavior SHOULD be available via local configuration or physical presence methods to ensure new entities can always be deployed even when autonomic methods fail. This allows for unsecured imprint. Christian's comments in DNSSD (which I also watched today) is right though: for many applications in *discovery* is important you probably don't want certs, because they reveal too much, and the relationship is too ephermeral. The link between Dave's Laptop and Dave's Cool Printer is probably longer. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAll/yUcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WU8twf+PhoBv+GIexG74Skh2gz6aP5UrGk4PaEYJlBAxJ9Lcizf+Viz+hTE+rdk bREKueMNPKA0NnX6tkabjYmtEK05aM/VQdBLnCdVqikVO4dq0rUVkQtLpAz43pA1 TUf5O16Hiog2G5yVd/Cw3gb/2iM9XCfB10FUY0xa2QDE/FJkp33Xb9GOXJCAbyoU Vge/p7Y99XMoFVzkj9OmgJfqtrKGkRp8aTypsPy3MWJrDEfIzj64bdMeKnj4yh21 DFMcW9/DyYxqTqVmst9f7oayxB2BJPFhIjbQabE/mNsqQSdNh7pa7t3W16Yp56cV Nve+q1di00O6A34ACn+2PJ0sF2b8Ng== =nZNd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 17:56:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CAF131828 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:55:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UcF31OUHYL34 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x229.google.com (mail-qt0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0057812EC11 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x229.google.com with SMTP id t37so1051882qtg.5 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:55:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=ASlKC0gWsYsS/q4lEeptqpxmBC8pzOfZUa52mFO88Xs=; b=UoeVLss4GtIsMujJTXgYLz/3WnKnOJHIYARmxTAGseRSisE/x3qMe1Sg0ylTwG+OLO VWnCDEX8/aTRhZgsvdM2kGaGEE6g+apDu6PiOAMGQ9g/4FCZOoZSRoyUNcX8XfFOxquU pfnj2n6wjgDWi79BSMLkMzlu/Z8rKJToAcJuZ2to38HluIayc991I7G8LU5OCp1044hN yOi5NIGoH1TwMRBEy5IBfonxl/DHCHlttgtXQ5bEDtSi8d+Tph9wpDO1ID9yF3QgGsaW 8R/ontXcCS3m1EK0zJneKJJ1g9mehNLM+AExIcGgu8Njs97kM44K8pVt2sRhQDw9Zkk2 mVHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=ASlKC0gWsYsS/q4lEeptqpxmBC8pzOfZUa52mFO88Xs=; b=Jp81VuF5myJCINcX8dMj8mAbxo7jMS7rGnvmIf1qV1v29TxlqGje1v7/baw7mgle5S pQf5uGkTvcxk4xvLhXxB6cIXMaY12WsQmMfjCtBKLCwcM1e74KcCTeG1lGyJXSL35r7m hiVunRp23OoFgoGadF9g3KEKxPZ1PBP/H4xgKlgordBsj9PVIyhJax4DZA+k/9dl7ucd Ri19Hq73BbhxdLVYyZPsnx9LCz9fa3KAZQ19TlB0CoVX5T83HHL+UjwaKlaIMaeCc7TH SSeu0qURYs4GoCVJyj6a3QVYHsseSDJ//0Sx1r7SGsW1csnR1YLrHkSdbJXK69Hh+nCg CZAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110co3mIOdrwphk6YYOl+xfh1dnlegnKf9hiJ+BoDAKLXGeHH5Se k/QajIeQCx2IwTKG X-Received: by 10.237.37.244 with SMTP id y49mr23666809qtc.313.1501548956073; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.153] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q4sm6306032qtf.78.2017.07.31.17.55.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:55:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_16E466AF-FC51-43A9-833B-305CC43EC5DF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:55:53 -0400 In-Reply-To: <27345.1501546823@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Cc: homenet@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <3725.1501514462@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <52E1C5A0-FC0E-46A5-9016-AA95FB3DC1CB@fugue.com> <3184.1501522914@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <5A407EA3-AC8B-44A7-8EC2-8242480027FE@fugue.com> <27345.1501546823@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Ted's security talk at IETF99: DNCP Security X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 00:55:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_16E466AF-FC51-43A9-833B-305CC43EC5DF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 8:20 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: > a) do they really want this kind of traffic? > b) the certs issued will go into their cert transparency list, and I = think > that means we lose privacy. > c) to make it work, they have to verify things. IPv6 makes the > connectivity easy to arrange, but it seems like it's a big = exposure for > the device. We are talking more than just routers... I'm thinking > printers and all sorts of things. Probably they don't, although they appear to be handling rather a lot of = traffic already. The problem is, we have no way to establish trust on = a domain name because the browser vendors don't support DNSSEC-based TLS = certs. For some reason. Not that I am bitter... > It doesn't establish initial trust, it gives the user a trusted icon = in their > browser once we have initial trust. Blrk. I just don't think it's a good idea to burn certs into routers. = And I don't want the end user to be relying on their router vendor for = their PKI. But I will admit that I haven't done a thorough threat = analysis, so I can't justify my collywobbles. > The Pledge can choose to accept vouchers using less secure methods. > These methods enable offline and emergency (touch based) deployment > use cases: That ain't going to work. But we can probably figure something out. > Christian's comments in DNSSD (which I also watched today) is right = though: > for many applications in *discovery* is important you probably don't = want > certs, because they reveal too much, and the relationship is too = ephermeral. > The link between Dave's Laptop and Dave's Cool Printer is probably = longer. Indeed, but we don't want Dave's Laptop going around asking for Dave's = Cool Printer when Dave's Laptop is not on the home network where Dave's = Cool Printer lives. --Apple-Mail=_16E466AF-FC51-43A9-833B-305CC43EC5DF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Jul 31, 2017, at 8:20 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
 a) do they really want this kind of = traffic?
 b) the certs issued will go into = their cert transparency list, and I think
    that means we lose privacy.
 c) to make it work, they have to verify = things.  IPv6 makes the
    connectivity easy to arrange, but it = seems like it's a big exposure for
    the device.  We are talking more = than just routers... I'm thinking
    printers and all sorts of = things.

Probably they don't, although they appear to be handling = rather a lot of traffic already.   The problem is, we have no way = to establish trust on a domain name because the browser vendors don't = support DNSSEC-based TLS certs.   For some reason.   Not that = I am bitter...

It doesn't establish = initial trust, it gives the user a trusted icon in their
browser once we have = initial trust.

Blrk.   I just don't think it's a good idea to burn = certs into routers.   And I don't want the end user to be relying = on their router vendor for their PKI.   But I will admit that I = haven't done a thorough threat analysis, so I can't justify my = collywobbles.

   The Pledge can choose to accept vouchers using less secure =
methods.
   These methods enable offline and emergency (touch based) deployment
   use cases:

That ain't going to work.   = But we can probably figure something out.

Christian's comments in DNSSD (which I also watched today) is = right though:
for = many applications in *discovery* is important you probably don't = want
certs, because they = reveal too much, and the relationship is too ephermeral.
The link between Dave's = Laptop and Dave's Cool Printer is probably = longer.

Indeed, = but we don't want Dave's Laptop going around asking for Dave's Cool = Printer when Dave's Laptop is not on the home network where Dave's Cool = Printer lives.


= --Apple-Mail=_16E466AF-FC51-43A9-833B-305CC43EC5DF-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 18:42:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECFA2127601 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:42:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jeRyU8EL36Ud for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [199.6.1.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CAE1127337 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1788F24AE3D; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 01:41:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25905160047; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 01:42:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 099A116004F; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 01:42:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id fOCTt9pji0OU; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 01:41:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 81E09160047; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 01:41:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A498081EDB; Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:41:53 +1000 (AEST) To: Ted Lemon Cc: homenet@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> <20170731050206.1A431806F1C2@rock.dv.isc.org> <916EEEB9-3709-492B-8E19-5C832B11AFC2@fugue.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 31 Jul 2017 05:36:39 -0400." <916EEEB9-3709-492B-8E19-5C832B11AFC2@fugue.com> Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 11:41:53 +1000 Message-Id: <20170801014153.E9A498081EDB@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 01:42:08 -0000 In message <916EEEB9-3709-492B-8E19-5C832B11AFC2@fugue.com>, Ted Lemon writes: > On Jul 31, 2017, at 1:02 AM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > The delegatation is INSECURE and SIGNED not UNSIGNED. The wording > > here is *important*. > > Can you explain what the distinction is, and what the problem is that you > see in point five? The reason I ask is that we explicitly changed the > wording from "insecure" to "not signed" because someone else said that it > wasn't clear what "insecure" meant. It seems to me that the current > language is explicit and unambigious; I think this is better than being > "correct." So what is the bad outcome that might occur as a result of > using the term "not signed" rather than "insecure"? The delegation has *signed* NEC/NSEC3 records that prove that there is no DS record at the delegation *and* that the delegation *exists* unless OPTOUT is also set in the covering NSEC3 record. The presence of the NS bits without a SOA and DS bits in the validated NSEC/NSEC3 record proved that the child zone is insecurely delegated. Note this does not work if the delegation is unsigned. All delegations from a signed zone are signed. These is no such thing as a unsigned delegation. There are only secure (with signed DS) and insecure (without DSi but with signed NSEC/NSEC3). This is different to a unsigned delegation in a unsigned zone where there is no proof of anything. RFC 4033 Insecure: The validating resolver has a trust anchor, a chain of trust, and, at some delegation point, signed proof of the non-existence of a DS record. This indicates that subsequent branches in the tree are provably insecure. A validating resolver may have a local policy to mark parts of the domain space as insecure. RFC 4035 Insecure: An RRset for which the resolver knows that it has no chain of signed DNSKEY and DS RRs from any trusted starting point to the RRset. This can occur when the target RRset lies in an unsigned zone or in a descendent of an unsigned zone. In this case, the RRset may or may not be signed, but the resolver will not be able to verify the signature. Then add to that "insecure delegation" is the existing term for this type of delegation. RFC 6063 As DNSSEC is deployed within the IN-ADDR.ARPA and IP6.ARPA namespaces, the zones listed above will need to be delegated as insecure delegations, or be within insecure zones. This will allow DNSSEC validation to succeed for queries in these spaces despite not being answered from the delegated servers. RFC 7719: Insecure delegation: a name containing a delegation (NS RRSet), but lacking a DS RRSet, signifying a delegation to an unsigned child zone. Opt-out: "The Opt-Out Flag indicates whether this NSEC3 RR may cover unsigned delegations." (Quoted from [RFC5155], Section 3.1.2.1.) Opt-out tackles the high costs of securing a delegation to an insecure zone. When using Opt-Out, names that are an insecure delegation (and empty non-terminals that are only derived from insecure delegations) don't require an NSEC3 record or its corresponding RRSIG records. Opt-Out NSEC3 records are not able to prove or deny the existence of the insecure delegations. (Adapted from [RFC7129], Section 5.1) As for point 5 the delegation for "home.arpa." will exist once IANA adds it to the ARPA zone. The content of the delegation won't match but it will exist. Note any server that performs such tests is already broken as STD 13 requires that the child zone be setup before the delegation is made. I know there are DNS hosters that require the delegation exists and list the server but they are actually wrong to do this. DNS delegations are make before break. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Mon Jul 31 18:49:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A1AE129B19 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tJ4P58xtCAuA for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22a.google.com (mail-qk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D038120724 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id u139so1607860qka.1 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:49:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=cJ4/oFrGYQ+34p7qUv8Pv5Eb3SzDR6O/6p/A4Gt63Uc=; b=YV+b0JVhgL2+qliVbEdCUsngLGGaHsY7FOFUpL15zPQmq5VdAPgCkbUSNApX4/Vklv NO9bfHvvb/a/ioqgIT99pmNv1GZWJ+VFiA9+1xnf6sQJe/+fvJUYirrX+ypBQVi/uBF5 OFodvJrL+wMKyniAcq8cLF4Ev0RBr63zxYU3LGVjdxOsOOH2nU0G8zc4XteVA7yVYFzj bCXeXU0L5skL2Q7WG165WVBQ0DllgtgMnrECeJGpG1lEVSSm8ipLYT3JqFThP/q/2QXs F+6/S3nD6cw7A8TYsYFJfvBN2bhuqJlvNGP9zj72zoYqbNeBed7XsrtyDxKSyuDLBeN7 oRdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=cJ4/oFrGYQ+34p7qUv8Pv5Eb3SzDR6O/6p/A4Gt63Uc=; b=SmlD3W9ZMeXOsTqJb9O7MxetDWKtBb3oLoFXxgxv7ccQl6hYZY009Kj7jO1vn1nyWW q14zg4Ufw1D1azTjnaiQz8V4eq4O7ya9byEs0ChpHQPChxQiAfLvLtVExSDUTa3rhGf0 LRsrHZhucGfAvVxfeLnLkuJB1pIvt2MOGAZyTs6m7KbbrL9Yu5o6CbKCRnRiVqzF/mDx kOhfNWoYMz9kbz52oubbQSrxXGJq7RwAZn++9FwEVm02h1kk9LbSxf0HzsqnnFH6kH6h Tdnsmy3CJ1BiDsznRE15GiqdsrIjxE+Vu2iFiVymDaDyXqp/HIvFYpYDOjlwi8I0YE4v xQOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112cLIeGA4gNu6564rCXxpx0eqomVAVgoiRGR1eNSK6jZf210zC2 opFoRCT+pZhXBXeTR1P2vg== X-Received: by 10.55.16.6 with SMTP id a6mr22370108qkh.205.1501552153132; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.30.153] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h7sm22296089qtc.12.2017.07.31.18.49.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <20170801014153.E9A498081EDB@rock.dv.isc.org> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:49:10 -0400 Cc: homenet@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <716E9A48-A143-4DA1-BCD2-06A9636EB1A0@fugue.com> References: <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> <20170731050206.1A431806F1C2@rock.dv.isc.org> <916EEEB9-3709-492B-8E19-5C832B11AFC2@fugue.com> <20170801014153.E9A498081EDB@rock.dv.isc.org> To: Mark Andrews X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 01:49:16 -0000 Thanks, Mark. That was sufficient detail. :) From nobody Mon Jul 31 23:01:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC60131600 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 23:01:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mathemainzel.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H6S9AXCUy7Wp for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 23:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12lb.world4you.com (mx12lb.world4you.com [81.19.149.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C456A124234 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 23:01:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mathemainzel.info; s=dkim11; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Cc:To:From:Subject:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID; bh=rINfbjEU24IzPYYyQvQwKnwlmxqi9sYovFEnddobaYU=; b=WQFeV/L7FV1FLe8/7bVOmFN4PZuY4obt3hoeOFMxBqWaXrNa6of7LXHQauAuYPQVNqtxokw1cxPgshIexoSkN1nd41zRfoLIfCYRJoi//BhyyutuNh/iTggSeDg2gEXE9QMK6Dagj4PxY9a5KMYqvyoCQ4O/cCm+OUbExItYyhk=; Received: from [90.146.55.206] (helo=home.mail) by mx12lb.world4you.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dcQFY-0005g0-Hf; Tue, 01 Aug 2017 08:01:48 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <150127266271.25329.18484770769960144@ietfa.amsl.com> <597F7545.9000702@mathemainzel.info> Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 08:01:48 +0200 From: "Walter H." To: "Ted Lemon" Cc: homenet@ietf.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (UNIX; U; Cray X-MP/48; en-US; rv:2.70) Gecko/20110929 Communicator/7.20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-SA-Do-Not-Run: Yes X-AV-Do-Run: Yes X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 90.146.55.206 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: walter.h@mathemainzel.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mx12lb.world4you.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-dot-10.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 06:01:54 -0000 On Mon, July 31, 2017 20:33, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Jul 31, 2017, at 2:21 PM, Walter H. wrote: >> Just a thought of mine, would it be possible to add a section, to make >> it possible >> to get official SSL certificates for these 'home.arpa.' domains (for >> free), >> so there would not be the need of running a own PKI? > > I don't see how that could work. that is why my thoughts to add a section to this Draft/RFC how this will work > I agree that it's a problem in need of > a solution, but since home.arpa wouldn't be externally visible, of course, the sense of a private LAN domain name ... > you couldn't use the fact that you can publish in a name in it > to do the ACME authentication. there SHOULD NOT be the ACME authentication or any neccessarity of any other authentication, as these domain names need not be unique ... in case you use 'teddynet.home.arpa.' and I use this domain name, too; we wouldn't have the same x509 SSL certificate, because each of us uses its own private key ... why not just define the org. that hosts the ARPA TLD (IANA?), as the CA for these domains and the root certificate as built in token to the common browsers and/or operating systems? there it should only be neccessary to upload the certificate request, gicwn the '.home.arpa.' domain name, and an email address where the certificate is sent to; the certificate will be a wild card certificate for this .home.arpa. domain .. I would want this to be added as additional section to this Draft/RFC; > I was hoping to get IP-based certs, but it turns out that letsencrypt > (probably wisely) doesn't offer them. IP-based is a bad idea as there is no user agent (browser) that handles IPv6 correct in such case ... Thanks, Walter