From nobody Wed Oct 4 11:14:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA3F132195 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 11:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c2e8qwq2qLS3 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 11:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com (mail-qk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B76B7132320 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 11:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id o187so10141824qke.7 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 2017 11:14:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=/QkmVHjpQxgIGjFllZK7UbfI1rnMdLc76WdKkW6uZrI=; b=toPoewsGpG6mrr16xM9UlGiYpZHvdJ6aqZ2WIEueEOStOVI8MNIl3MsdLR0AJ1yOwA N4TD27RSW9LTfnpp8nTe+p2mzGCPnq6BI6/adF6EN2GtkzmW24CAw8oBpcSy87uFb5uC 70WxYFgEw1bxrSpSeTrX/lqYbt3453J8aulQSaBovaZXpCBM9NeljWqv02yxn71qSbmE Ej7CpYPgODAQcTsFKiKrL+1Em2V4SAt0SZAraWMLAmxzUzZteUbJnWL+LUE+4FsCMHNz R2WfKST7+5QpuMhWqxZqJUCTBP9r725MXrxo66qrN3hGjOi3XldhInc9cQfQF3b9l2te GG+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=/QkmVHjpQxgIGjFllZK7UbfI1rnMdLc76WdKkW6uZrI=; b=OvKr7CJYa5xFdIruyqQ13xp51f+LuEiHDHoLxtFXIPWfwMmisj8gLFh3NXKn4XBEH1 xJpvgtlmqIhGdsK3EZUy631xOojXMcYDe0lOhP6RoeKKp6qr+ZCJ2ySNh66Pv0yQGpkV ujxLr1+10fdBI4IkA14doGIP8nHUPPdHDuiYdM61OwXA6JVKzoR1bGe9wXdswfNjekfZ 8uGzrb8RLt764QwvS8QErBOZI8Tgui5SS4LzghW0aFTpLL3XSiPh8LU8Cpa9Rc1T0sRZ p3eAdLGLTwEn6n8YUruzdZjv+NXzDnzGibHQmM5tPNPvsPEGFxfrOw0/hAfUzNBfMART BQ5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUGTNGmgrMc2pLnRiGtVmFP52PS/niB5OOFuP4fNxHsVL+1W3h7 RIFkbFmCatvhfivPbtUhWwwQDrdM X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QBJwTC1yP44X1fuvosbJ4To5UXmM+dOg5qBW/MVQMsFFqoGMi8mCHPpBEx+6LLqbe4M9+TQWg== X-Received: by 10.55.212.219 with SMTP id s88mr3388843qks.188.1507140890556; Wed, 04 Oct 2017 11:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from richs-mbp-10337.lan ([64.223.236.142]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y10sm10101520qkl.5.2017.10.04.11.14.49 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Oct 2017 11:14:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 14:14:48 -0400 References: <3D5292B0-B7B3-44EE-AA5D-FDAB670DCEB1@gmail.com> To: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3D5292B0-B7B3-44EE-AA5D-FDAB670DCEB1@gmail.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Status of Homenet implementations & Homewrt.org X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2017 18:14:53 -0000 [ Due to a misconfiguration, the Homewrt.org site got several hundred = bogus accounts when I opened up registration to the world. Although I do = not believe that any changes to the site were lost, I encourage everyone = to a) review the site, and b) make updates on pages where warranted, = especially on topics #1 and #2 below. Thanks! -Rich ] > On Sep 28, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Rich Brown = wrote: >=20 > With the transition of 'home.arpa' to Proposed Standard, this might be = a good time to review the state of Homenet wrt its use by people outside = this list.=20 >=20 > My interest is that I did some work on the homewrt.org web site back = in December. As the person who "touched it last", I feel somewhat = responsible for its truth. But I haven't followed the discussions on = this list closely (blame my other projects!), so I don't know whether = the descriptions on the site match the current implementations.=20 >=20 > My questions fall in two parts: >=20 > 1) Homenet/hncp implementations:=20 >=20 > - What implementations are available?=20 > - Are they being tested and/or updated? > - Are they usable by "outsiders" - that is, with simple installs on = common platforms? >=20 > 2) www.homewrt.org site:=20 >=20 > - Is the Technical Overview page still correct? = http://homewrt.org/about/overview > - Are the various setup instructions still correct? = http://homewrt.org/installation/start > - Are there other pages on the site that need updates? >=20 > The Homewrt.org wiki can be edited by anyone who's a member (and it's = trivial to join). I encourage everyone here to review the site and = update it where needed.=20 >=20 > Thanks, and best regards, >=20 > Rich From nobody Sat Oct 14 04:06:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39DFF1321C7 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 04:06:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PFJbSbeQLCVP for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 04:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D0C61201F8 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 04:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA74BBE2E for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 12:06:29 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4qbytrD3UYLH for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 12:06:26 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A2B7BDF9 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 12:06:26 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1507979186; bh=S1q72KtgYQClSWrIwIhxpcJ9TJv6VB7jMEDu4m4LP1A=; h=Subject:References:To:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ZECv+tcWGXDQ7amuM/Dl4Kp2Mh3u/6ZBkmYxX3DyZA1nvBwAhxBqJkCBiYnnsBRh6 eSQukySVa6yBxZUwwGXTO5m68j6x5E30IC3rkA7zojClJD9PaX0RfhyrqbgBwwSezK c3cjZ8NMfcBZh/mhXMKuFvpiBLI/S77sj4lTW5hE= References: <150793205528.5002.3779402115235848093.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "homenet@ietf.org" From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <150793205528.5002.3779402115235848093.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <64559889-8eed-8edc-72c2-d57c56ed3dfd@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 12:06:24 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <150793205528.5002.3779402115235848093.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="C2tVjd8rwKKaJVfNf3wpNPB5h5kXNcUxh" Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] Fwd: IETF 100 Preliminary Agenda X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 11:06:35 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --C2tVjd8rwKKaJVfNf3wpNPB5h5kXNcUxh Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="CvDM36VBkSnjoXMxoMnaETi6ATnjsvcIg"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "homenet@ietf.org" Message-ID: <64559889-8eed-8edc-72c2-d57c56ed3dfd@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Fwd: IETF 100 Preliminary Agenda References: <150793205528.5002.3779402115235848093.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150793205528.5002.3779402115235848093.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> --CvDM36VBkSnjoXMxoMnaETi6ATnjsvcIg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI, homenet is currently scheduled to meet Monday afternoon. That can still change of course. S -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: IETF 100 Preliminary Agenda Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 15:00:55 -0700 From: IETF Agenda Reply-To: IETF Agenda To: Working Group Chairs The IETF 100 preliminary agenda has been posted. The final agenda will be published on Friday, October 20, 2017. If you would like to request a change to the preliminary agenda, please send a message to agenda@ietf.org and copy all relevant Area Directors. https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.html https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.txt Thank you! IETF Secretariat --CvDM36VBkSnjoXMxoMnaETi6ATnjsvcIg-- --C2tVjd8rwKKaJVfNf3wpNPB5h5kXNcUxh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZ4e+xAAoJEC88hzaAX42io+4IAK2Togqd74hC/HjssKQsboSq eR3plJ9aEUFsO3XwtxPgsMoN6lHcNf1btWz6EZAkm8aezcrgncwEVwxEd9bStDQm 0uW0xWWY3v1S9Ub9W7nDwLD3+UyBtWnxXOmDk/vs2QGSE/TGlY4vVJSXo1yPjtt9 w0sCP7CyhQ0+aMzjBfBCt7ZmpmGRMTTafShEbm1UJXrG1v2ZlyCTHSct9D4ssWq4 L2nNGO1aiY8FCFQTM6YPMugeBw3TleGrydC3Ub/lbAegVLq9HnMZ1Wly4oxHPOEB YlTllviGZzJonHzbERTicIyCcncfAPspSAN+hY5tXUyNLK0E+Ts5PChwFj9p0WU= =Dnn5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --C2tVjd8rwKKaJVfNf3wpNPB5h5kXNcUxh-- From nobody Thu Oct 19 08:06:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C310013214D for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:06:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ke8sSbm8iMca for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8A091342EE for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7996CBE4C for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:06:10 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5n39Av6m5I5u for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:06:10 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (bilbo.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 95516BE49 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:06:08 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1508425570; bh=ZRa7zXH++CKw6b8+XNJByh+wP2TAYs6JLcLMitmBhBA=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=JFTjAYPVZ2t8tyNyAgSRMXL5nIyH4CeOuNlqN/gzmwoSmp84i+P8GV1MKh9seqhmx LIeNKUQ7mJeUiszvCv/+tRCdiV/x1cat40ABT3umaQGerkwF3ywjN5wzsVSJzt8SI2 kG/LmPzeU2e2cCbvEL7yfb8QRJZh+4XVht0xpo7U= To: "homenet@ietf.org" From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <596552cf-bd0e-78a6-d844-f8e1e322c076@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:05:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="P4poFTCw9Sx4EGOGPCptGkkgMAh8Ikd2B" Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] charter item on perimeter security X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:06:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --P4poFTCw9Sx4EGOGPCptGkkgMAh8Ikd2B Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ohmI8KqAuC8ekS8CAQlLIbEwqIbKIAI54"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "homenet@ietf.org" Message-ID: <596552cf-bd0e-78a6-d844-f8e1e322c076@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: charter item on perimeter security --ohmI8KqAuC8ekS8CAQlLIbEwqIbKIAI54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, Our charter has the following milestone: Nov 2017 - First WG draft on perimeter security Is anyone here working on or interested in that topic? If so, please ping me/chairs offlist. If people are interested in doing that work, I'd like to try setup a chat about that next week. If people are not interested in doing that work, (or if it might not happen until the heat-death of the universe:-) then we should probably chat about that @ IETF100 I guess. Two people (Ted Lemon/Chris Wood) have told me offlist that they're at least interested in a chat about the topic. I'll come back to the list with whatever happens. (And just in case someone's worried about process, this is just a chat to see if there's the beginnings of a plan, with folks interested in doing work, or not - nothing at all would be decided.) Cheers, S. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/homenet/charters --ohmI8KqAuC8ekS8CAQlLIbEwqIbKIAI54-- --P4poFTCw9Sx4EGOGPCptGkkgMAh8Ikd2B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZ6L9TAAoJEC88hzaAX42icSUIAKs2jhwvFHTOAzOWI/7+jSim oJIJ86loNAiLBCDExZsPuY+f5OLrBYbe3Q9vuAeMBc1BPRV6mZzKbOSMSAipWZAK teLeTsys/cjXK/1D4SPaHM6qvYu16NMfScQsdjFJWikMGaefQ2P5r88dokisH7yC vTbgcb1M6MjhNiIN8xul9K7mdQV5NonhBFLdBlVYxCwH1UsRkddPzdiUy7jVLNBh X6D7oGgt92qE9YnVepRwQrTflT5pl6fZ3VvoUR43v/h2N1m377QfyfreNM2L2tmw qqLvBPHaSOxQF++ughtBusTnH9/RqYo50vwmju0biGNarY4K1yi3DUKWiUMaqKk= =VCLu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --P4poFTCw9Sx4EGOGPCptGkkgMAh8Ikd2B-- From nobody Fri Oct 20 17:29:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6315C13447C; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: homenet@ietf.org, terry.manderson@icann.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150854546440.20809.18095605224792411406.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:24 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] homenet - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 00:24:24 -0000 Dear Barbara Stark, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. homenet Session 1 (1:30:00) Monday, Afternoon Session II 1550-1720 Room Name: Collyer size: 250 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Home Networking Area Name: Internet Area Session Requester: Barbara Stark Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 120 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: v6ops intarea dnsop dnssd 6man babel saag tls Second Priority: mptcp lpwan People who must be present: Stephen Farrell Terry Manderson Ray Bellis Barbara Stark Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Oct 23 00:49:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF6B113ED59 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 00:49:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2YGDlVodgtVT for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 00:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A26EB13ED55 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 00:49:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1508744959; x=1509349759; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=6ACjmreeeNU1HzClsDzBzc6C033SXLr4IxOWcdtU648=; b=rGmwcKuovIGD/ vL9DvTJ1xvmllH0f9UcsQVals8XLceyaHGN3BUVpNzQ8kfK+93ntCg3LoM5EHimg PHUJ5j41gbxwkIIoxcrVQjlYWmWbgfZD9IFtGYVf7rwgyCyTJs/s+IS+AqOelveh m15ZcCRMuVd6iZ+cc0N2S09EvFi3J0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=obUHXcIJYbjjBbWb9We4QWlhjBvb2imabVNBYDnxzmOTB4UdZen4bT33p0Ci atuItK/Y9bzEY8Fs3suPVSEphvIHdHfBN08Q/sD/2avjo7h3Z0I5Q0yUm JyLF1hEl2CFQQv/zGgTQYaXVoB9IG1R9oF2RsQBzarDhHwBy+XVxdk=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Mon, 23 Oct 2017 09:49:18 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Mon, 23 Oct 2017 09:49:17 +0200 Received: from [193.0.29.122] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005603200.msg for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 09:49:16 +0200 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:171023:md50005603200::kFjZbhnmaDXCykkI:00003aY9 X-Return-Path: prvs=1469a3b3c0=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: homenet@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:48:57 +0400 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 07:49:23 -0000 Hi all, Some of you probably are aware of an attempt to update RFC7084 to a =E2=80= =93bis version. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis/ In this work, it was suggested to me to include HNCP support, so I added th= is LAN requirement: L-16: The IPv6 CE router SHOULD provide HNCP (Home Networking Control Protocol) services, as specified in [RFC7788]. However, it seems that the latest decision of v6ops, is =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80= =99t touch RFC7084=E2=80=9D and instead make a separate document for the IP= v6 transition requirements for IPv6 CE routers, which I updated a few days = ago: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-transition/ Now, in this version I=E2=80=99ve NOT included the HNCP support as a requir= ement, however I still mention it as: The end-user network is a stub network, in the sense that is not providing transit to other external networks. However, HNCP ([RFC7788]) allows support for automatic provisioning of downstream routers. Figure 1 illustrates the model topology for the end-user network. Now, the questions I=E2=80=99ve for this WG is: 1) Do you think I should mention other homenet documents ? 2) Do you think we should have a specific homenet document requiring the su= pport of homenet for IPv6 CE routers, so for example this becomes an integr= al part of testing by ISPs, IPv6 Ready Logo, or even RFQs, etc.? I will be happy to work in a homenet document if we believe that 2 above is= needed. Anyone else interested? Regards, Jordi =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Mon Oct 23 11:12:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56877139976 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:12:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9yE81nDt1htT for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22c.google.com (mail-pf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EE4F138AEE for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id x7so17698538pfa.1 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:12:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=42D74yhp3raVeK0B/PmAk0VPEe3gwaYlPWbHQbQWbJg=; b=vnWiGA8tCsoJMV/2LeD+SBU0au7N9pRs5ZDYptiYk1jkXBICkP0m9nzGq+gt/qEfYq 0Yl/DxYoTErn1wOBge2S7aLiUeui+dBqNYvnNOCED/mn+Fc08jjt8dinVB68eyCuiRj/ t0Egj4BJ7ndrx9CgwpEm81V0eC+oYLHl66LNqeeSlC7QdntKGTpP/TuIv+AH7L+ZA38b s7S0dwnEOkT0fRBDi2Q0ZvB7WOTOGwjvuCQIVjHpqQcvVpYQGwJHmfknN4S2kVBkQsGw 4vkOE1OsnSZa8SEUS9wrcpGSSSdBokI3htnpu4NAXkgJjOaDnbvgxiavqzgnGaUUWrQh TG2A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=42D74yhp3raVeK0B/PmAk0VPEe3gwaYlPWbHQbQWbJg=; b=ueevGgZeMwyaCrHdXHtIonHMc0oyh4Hs8wDGRHHmnXZ7RcatwtgQCnpxT6t+Jlveuy 2LniZgLd3TyfwyorQmpRG/Yb2LNso88aLqL4hJbZhD+Pp2iMwSzGS5Cu8Fu06xxxuFlN 7s2/+ou7dG2dQhA7GuoOf8ZDJEBEkZI5Aq5AZpWVuXWlMQcTZMWcOr7XVJsUlvNzU0Oe kpAZmqT00F+ihqe7/PBB+d+LHQHHMClmI3Bh8uWUwzZ3TEU3nFEuQ/GXTgQq2ZhiJq0B fo5h6U4Ds4GgYkGaVPbTt91T7zvpRwSNYaYzyIcxtqWoZVSqZ7Dd2iwgJIfXOf6wDKob kAzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVHhZbp5A+OL2O20LFgVsB4vE9nZIR+d1g79QfytVMFSs92m+IW iawgPc2lihstFNFFj7Uzl/XW08bzcWk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+T6o5wJvX7DmfwX4zQ3sqsvuE7e6EvBESrBltUY8fiBPuTc046NbTnOG+bvVKa/PWqHJwbyxw== X-Received: by 10.98.219.134 with SMTP id f128mr14016457pfg.85.1508782351658; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2620::10e7:10:a439:5cfe:4e30:d361? ([2620:0:10e7:10:a439:5cfe:4e30:d361]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w9sm14481402pfk.16.2017.10.23.11.12.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:12:31 -0700 (PDT) From: james woodyatt Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C82B1190-C372-413B-B7CF-74BDBE5F7FFC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:12:30 -0700 References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , HOMENET In-Reply-To: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 18:12:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C82B1190-C372-413B-B7CF-74BDBE5F7FFC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Oct 23, 2017, at 00:48, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = wrote: >=20 > Now, in this version I=E2=80=99ve NOT included the HNCP support as a = requirement, however I still mention it as: >=20 > The end-user network is a stub network, in the sense that is not > providing transit to other external networks. However, HNCP > ([RFC7788]) allows support for automatic provisioning of downstream > routers. Figure 1 illustrates the model topology for the end-user > network. >=20 > Now, the questions I=E2=80=99ve for this WG is: >=20 > 1) Do you think I should mention other homenet documents ? > 2) Do you think we should have a specific homenet document requiring = the support of homenet for IPv6 CE routers, so for example this becomes = an integral part of testing by ISPs, IPv6 Ready Logo, or even RFQs, = etc.? >=20 > I will be happy to work in a homenet document if we believe that 2 = above is needed. Anyone else interested? I think it would be better if you leave aside all mention of HOMENET = protocols from the RFC 7084-bis draft. That document is mainly intended = for first-mile internet service providers, and I think the less the have = to say about how residential networks operate behind the demarcation = point at the edge of their networks, the better for everyone. This would = give HOMENET optimal freedom to write standards for interoperability of = devices intended for home networks without having to get mired in the = tar pit of dealing with first-mile internet service provider stuff. --james woodyatt > --Apple-Mail=_C82B1190-C372-413B-B7CF-74BDBE5F7FFC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On Oct 23, 2017, at 00:48, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:

Now, in this version I=E2=80=99ve NOT = included the HNCP support as a requirement, however I still mention it = as:

The end-user network is a stub network, = in the sense that is not
  providing transit to = other external networks.  However, HNCP
=   ([RFC7788]) allows support for automatic provisioning of = downstream
  routers.  Figure 1 = illustrates the model topology for the end-user
=   network.

Now, the questions = I=E2=80=99ve for this WG is:

1) Do you = think I should mention other homenet documents ?
2) Do you = think we should have a specific homenet document requiring the support = of homenet for IPv6 CE routers, so for example this becomes an integral = part of testing by ISPs, IPv6 Ready Logo, or even RFQs, etc.?

I will be happy to work in a homenet document = if we believe that 2 above is needed. Anyone else = interested?

I think it = would be better if you leave aside all mention of HOMENET protocols from = the RFC 7084-bis draft. That document is mainly intended for first-mile = internet service providers, and I think the less the have to say about = how residential networks operate behind the demarcation point at the = edge of their networks, the better for everyone. This would give HOMENET = optimal freedom to write standards for interoperability of devices = intended for home networks without having to get mired in the tar pit of = dealing with first-mile internet service provider stuff.


--james woodyatt <jhw@google.com>



= --Apple-Mail=_C82B1190-C372-413B-B7CF-74BDBE5F7FFC-- From nobody Mon Oct 23 11:34:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B919139A22 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:34:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=iol.unh.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7eN1t_AQhWsP for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x229.google.com (mail-yw0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABDF5138351 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x229.google.com with SMTP id w5so12907278ywg.11 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:34:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iol.unh.edu; s=unh-iol; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=u8wkmWZpJAwQSTXchHfmjR6Dc397Uo2lccoHUiztkb0=; b=bDVaMqknhuA3nm3hhgOnyk/9YnveOa+DVHi+t58IXWe+lgH+i57QxABAx0jlPh/VpV 5sk12NrzTj4ZuRWTrMA3We5UeqJUwdiifwyu00jetimoxP5rJXNgF4R6hRscYx5m+jxy 54chihG0L6ZROW2TMn353bwSO08jbJ1vB7sFQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=u8wkmWZpJAwQSTXchHfmjR6Dc397Uo2lccoHUiztkb0=; b=X/+9oXiVDnv8neyyclOJ6kAtyQJPP8nE4XIMqOO8tyJ1oVq35hjdlfAw9bul0GPntF yIXw4MmFfcsm5RicLoEkl7OdHj+k4kwvq5KfYOdUoBIj436+ES84Bd8Lvjoer1gQ8aJR CZ8eSxBPIJhMntu3+5b3csOxtp6Udv8PWfFuGUxUauHI4F4TfkRNFpIQc/YZrNFczrRJ xpwMHmeOk41c/eCH0aHPqgNEnXCl7k8QTk57R1Y+xHMAHH90as4wJhOAWOL9CK5ZldMQ EIqjCKEOl8JX9mXsi/05TYymXtqATA5MMYHQbM7k0GNS8s98FOqLjhrHttyvs4hlRCQ4 uLqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWXcnUOoWNmn6Dj+1iU9rR9CpNgop/29vcSaDKax90K/DAL9YTS Dv0+n03EbkJ73xuOy45BBefuigXHB/KBaFFNHSrMwQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+TxgGForO+WQeLbiCJay6Nhno+uWDfbVHS8DGN4kcsHfVOGz5R3B5y1Y7n0udFL2vpGEo5lcjzw+IZVcMrOe6U= X-Received: by 10.37.20.6 with SMTP id 6mr9216855ybu.339.1508783663777; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:34:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.13.248.134 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 11:34:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> From: Timothy Winters Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 14:34:02 -0400 Message-ID: To: james woodyatt Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , HOMENET Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d2b9452ab0d055c3b1262" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 18:34:27 -0000 --001a113d2b9452ab0d055c3b1262 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 2:12 PM, james woodyatt wrote: > On Oct 23, 2017, at 00:48, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ < > jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: > > > Now, in this version I=E2=80=99ve NOT included the HNCP support as a requ= irement, > however I still mention it as: > > The end-user network is a stub network, in the sense that is not > providing transit to other external networks. However, HNCP > ([RFC7788]) allows support for automatic provisioning of downstream > routers. Figure 1 illustrates the model topology for the end-user > network. > > Now, the questions I=E2=80=99ve for this WG is: > > 1) Do you think I should mention other homenet documents ? > 2) Do you think we should have a specific homenet document requiring the > support of homenet for IPv6 CE routers, so for example this becomes an > integral part of testing by ISPs, IPv6 Ready Logo, or even RFQs, etc.? > > I will be happy to work in a homenet document if we believe that 2 above > is needed. Anyone else interested? > > > I think it would be better if you leave aside all mention of HOMENET > protocols from the RFC 7084-bis draft. That document is mainly intended f= or > first-mile internet service providers, and I think the less the have to s= ay > about how residential networks operate behind the demarcation point at th= e > edge of their networks, the better for everyone. This would give HOMENET > optimal freedom to write standards for interoperability of devices intend= ed > for home networks without having to get mired in the tar pit of dealing > with first-mile internet service provider stuff. > It would also be my preference to have this separate from 7084. > > > --james woodyatt > > > > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet > > --=20 Now offering testing for SDN applications and controllers in our SDN switch test bed. Learn more today http://bit.ly/SDN_IOLPR --001a113d2b9452ab0d055c3b1262 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 2:12 PM, james woodyatt <jhw@google.com> wrote:
On Oct 23, 2017, at 00:48, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@c= onsulintel.es> wrote:

Now, in this version I=E2=80=99ve NOT included the HNCP support as a requ= irement, however I still mention it as:

The end-user network is a st= ub network, in the sense that is not
=C2=A0=C2=A0providing transit to o= ther external networks.=C2=A0 However, HNCP
=C2=A0=C2=A0([RFC7788]) all= ows support for automatic provisioning of downstream
=C2=A0=C2=A0router= s.=C2=A0 Figure 1 illustrates the model topology for the end-user
=C2= =A0=C2=A0network.

Now, the questions I=E2=80=99ve for this WG is:
1) Do you think I should mention other homenet documents ?
2) Do yo= u think we should have a specific homenet document requiring the support of= homenet for IPv6 CE routers, so for example this becomes an integral part = of testing by ISPs, IPv6 Ready Logo, or even RFQs, etc.?

I will be h= appy to work in a homenet document if we believe that 2 above is needed. An= yone else interested?

I think= it would be better if you leave aside all mention of HOMENET protocols fro= m the RFC 7084-bis draft. That document is mainly intended for first-mile i= nternet service providers, and I think the less the have to say about how r= esidential networks operate behind the demarcation point at the edge of the= ir networks, the better for everyone. This would give HOMENET optimal freed= om to write standards for interoperability of devices intended for home net= works without having to get mired in the tar pit of dealing with first-mile= internet service provider stuff.

It would also be my preference to have this separate from 7084.
=C2=A0


--james woodyatt <jhw@google.com>




_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet<= br>



--
=

Now offering testing for SDN ap= plications and controllers in our SDN switch test bed.=C2=A0Learn more today http://bit.ly/SDN_IOLPR=

--001a113d2b9452ab0d055c3b1262-- From nobody Mon Oct 23 22:07:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B3A13B573 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 22:07:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HKbeCK5nDtZp for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 22:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EAAB13B51A for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 22:07:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1508821628; x=1509426428; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=XkXto197IAcQk9j1Tw4yanTh9 BRkUt1+SI+yXM5UqK4=; b=LnjDmBe0vqhVzsJ7ALeoMgFemzrSt22BUJQdNtki9 j0d1h+dQG6zCSw+3XpX71hWiLqJS4CMfejVUMwEwi++SZgEkUQBZVcrld7PpzQ90 NLxbhxM//rvQVUt1ikH2zeJL0X8KUK2UsFHCGjWfPeueom0mq00327lW0G5VfX4L go= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=qt1WxCxZntwSLgoaUJbsl/48uOQ9XF7ed1mz/HZOuEUYbeWo9tOx+cu+8iK9 jc6c+srdIN1R8a1AZF/z4BEU8kcsgvsFeJORlhN7PEm9iX+LV/qlZ09yK iDyIhRbngltzzMSb6WqVhio0zREZMZtb0MNWYbgIyw4Yy1izUDMAnY=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:07:08 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:07:08 +0200 Received: from [193.0.29.122] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005603929.msg for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:07:08 +0200 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:171024:md50005603929::1zyo03Lx0UuLfzh9:00008uh3 X-Return-Path: prvs=1470615b63=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: homenet@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:06:43 +0400 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: HOMENET Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 05:07:13 -0000 Hi James, I included HNCP in RFC7084-bis following your request :-( So even if I=E2=80=99d only a couple of answers, I think it we are on the r= ight track =E2=80=A6 So, concentrating in homenet. Do, repeating my 2nd questions, do we believe we need a specific document H= OMENET document to suggest to include in CE, or to say how to do it, or wha= tever? Maybe it is interesting, if the chairs agree, to include this question in t= he WG agenda for the next meeting? Regards, Jordi =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: homenet en nombre de james woodyatt Responder a: Fecha: lunes, 23 de octubre de 2017, 22:12 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , HOMENET Asunto: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers On Oct 23, 2017, at 00:48, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: =20 =20 Now, in this version I=E2=80=99ve NOT included the HNCP support as a re= quirement, however I still mention it as: =20 The end-user network is a stub network, in the sense that is not providing transit to other external networks. However, HNCP ([RFC7788]) allows support for automatic provisioning of downstream routers. Figure 1 illustrates the model topology for the end-user network. =20 Now, the questions I=E2=80=99ve for this WG is: =20 1) Do you think I should mention other homenet documents ? 2) Do you think we should have a specific homenet document requiring th= e support of homenet for IPv6 CE routers, so for example this becomes an in= tegral part of testing by ISPs, IPv6 Ready Logo, or even RFQs, etc.? =20 I will be happy to work in a homenet document if we believe that 2 abov= e is needed. Anyone else interested? =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 I think it would be better if you leave aside all mention of HOMENET pr= otocols from the RFC 7084-bis draft. That document is mainly intended for f= irst-mile internet service providers, and I think the less the have to say = about how residential networks operate behind the demarcation point at the = edge of their networks, the better for everyone. This would give HOMENET op= timal freedom to write standards for interoperability of devices intended f= or home networks without having to get mired in the tar pit of dealing with= first-mile internet service provider stuff. =20 =20 --james woodyatt =20 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. 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(8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9ODPwDM023446; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:31:59 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0048589.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2dsyysgewm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:31:59 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9ODVw07021278; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:31:58 -0400 Received: from alpi132.aldc.att.com (alpi132.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.2]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9ODVnqh021134 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:31:51 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAH.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAH.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.157]) by alpi132.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Tue, 24 Oct 2017 13:31:38 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.103]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAH.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.157]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:31:38 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "jordi.palet@consulintel.es" CC: HOMENET Thread-Topic: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers Thread-Index: AQHTS9N3B4oDH1Ul9EqphTxj4iBf7KLydFJagACM3Yw= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 13:31:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-24_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710240190 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 13:33:37 -0000 As chair... I think it would be useful for homenet to discuss how to propagate its prot= ocols into general purpose home network routers (that people may use at the= edge or interior) and also what may or may not be good to include in requi= rements specifically targeting routers at the customer's edge (CE).=20 Jordi: if you would like to bravely volunteer to help guide this discussion= by being the person at the presenter microphone, that would be great. We c= ould base discussion on the 7084-bis draft so you don't need to have anothe= r draft; but maybe some slides focused on the specific homenet questions.=20 If others in homenet think having this discussion is a bad idea please let = me/us know.=20 Barbara > On Oct 24, 2017, at 1:07 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >=20 > Hi James, >=20 > I included HNCP in RFC7084-bis following your request :-( >=20 > So even if I=92d only a couple of answers, I think it we are on the right= track =85 >=20 > So, concentrating in homenet. >=20 > Do, repeating my 2nd questions, do we believe we need a specific document= HOMENET document to suggest to include in CE, or to say how to do it, or w= hatever? >=20 > Maybe it is interesting, if the chairs agree, to include this question in= the WG agenda for the next meeting? >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > -----Mensaje original----- > De: homenet en nombre de james woodyatt > Responder a: > Fecha: lunes, 23 de octubre de 2017, 22:12 > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , HOMENET > Asunto: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers >=20 > On Oct 23, 2017, at 00:48, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >=20 >=20 > Now, in this version I=92ve NOT included the HNCP support as a require= ment, however I still mention it as: >=20 > The end-user network is a stub network, in the sense that is not > providing transit to other external networks. However, HNCP > ([RFC7788]) allows support for automatic provisioning of downstream > routers. Figure 1 illustrates the model topology for the end-user > network. >=20 > Now, the questions I=92ve for this WG is: >=20 > 1) Do you think I should mention other homenet documents ? > 2) Do you think we should have a specific homenet document requiring t= he support of homenet for IPv6 CE routers, so for example this becomes an i= ntegral part of testing by ISPs, IPv6 Ready Logo, or even RFQs, etc.? >=20 > I will be happy to work in a homenet document if we believe that 2 abo= ve is needed. Anyone else interested? >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > I think it would be better if you leave aside all mention of HOMENET p= rotocols from the RFC 7084-bis draft. That document is mainly intended for = first-mile internet service providers, and I think the less the have to say= about how residential networks operate behind the demarcation point at the= edge of their networks, the better for everyone. This would give HOMENET o= ptimal freedom to write standards for interoperability of devices intended = for home networks without having to get mired in the tar pit of dealing wit= h first-mile internet service provider stuff. >=20 >=20 > --james woodyatt >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma= ilman_listinfo_homenet&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DLoGzhC-8sc= 8SY8Tq4vrfog&m=3D_bR9FvzwQbxh-O6P0rZaAVc0qP9N51NHDxBJbsA_U3g&s=3DWZA2wxLl7a= vD8GFCF7eXUzLwkfVvFzOxKZFGPXPtYDE&e=3D=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.consulintel.es&= d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DLoGzhC-8sc8SY8Tq4vrfog&m=3D_bR9Fv= zwQbxh-O6P0rZaAVc0qP9N51NHDxBJbsA_U3g&s=3DHKL3FbaYGYEKqIpNRC_7FRP4YfGsmyViX= h2wV5zCEw8&e=3D=20 > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or c= onfidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the= individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure= , copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if= partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be co= nsidered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware= that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this = information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohi= bited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the orig= inal sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm= an_listinfo_homenet&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DLoGzhC-8sc8SY= 8Tq4vrfog&m=3D_bR9FvzwQbxh-O6P0rZaAVc0qP9N51NHDxBJbsA_U3g&s=3DWZA2wxLl7avD8= GFCF7eXUzLwkfVvFzOxKZFGPXPtYDE&e=3D=20 From nobody Tue Oct 24 06:48:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB95113F4BB for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 06:48:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h0s72UqdJYvH for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 06:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98A0113F544 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 06:48:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1508852900; x=1509457700; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=Xpf6z5ExxeZpuH9G+YHFANiTp aaQxx0IIl1JVzdEWT4=; b=QMQPc/yRaIfCFlPV5WXdpMeju1rWcKzlD4vRPFitz bdQC8ZmsFr8vMd4r99O43WHSk31Vxy4ThQX6LA3DZ2Yjuq9UbtwspqJD/j9UUqtE BURF6Hxwqg6Ieq81bVq9g6U2EK0n/iJt38RhdrMP+ZHZYCntfmCHCsiCl9MnGomp ZE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=KCBGDXldaZVQoaVTcxYkR9YTbXis2ArELP1Ma7NF7+uxfnvyVgaY06kDu4e1 AvN8R1MtYI1NQDxhtr7MHu5WlWd5875c5SKnnqjYYKOF/PRLJzRUL7Knr 2Im4vbpVey+k0YH0zyjE8P+dsJOzaaJcRq4oaydaN3mBDP2EiyEf80=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 24 Oct 2017 15:48:20 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 24 Oct 2017 15:48:19 +0200 Received: from [172.20.11.239] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005604251.msg for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 15:48:17 +0200 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:171024:md50005604251::9NukmFEvapQ0hzIf:00000BHe X-Return-Path: prvs=1470615b63=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: homenet@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 17:47:59 +0400 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: HOMENET Message-ID: <026200EF-9980-4312-AA86-8566A676CBE7@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 13:48:33 -0000 Yes, of course, I=E2=80=99m happy to run that show. I=E2=80=99m not really sure if this requires more than just a couple of sli= des, just to launch the discussion and gather opinion, but I will work on i= t, and of course, happy to heard what others believe I should include. Regards, Jordi =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: homenet en nombre de "STARK, BARBARA H" Responder a: Fecha: martes, 24 de octubre de 2017, 17:33 Para: "jordi.palet@consulintel.es" CC: HOMENET Asunto: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers As chair... I think it would be useful for homenet to discuss how to propagate its = protocols into general purpose home network routers (that people may use at= the edge or interior) and also what may or may not be good to include in r= equirements specifically targeting routers at the customer's edge (CE).=20 =20 Jordi: if you would like to bravely volunteer to help guide this discus= sion by being the person at the presenter microphone, that would be great. = We could base discussion on the 7084-bis draft so you don't need to have an= other draft; but maybe some slides focused on the specific homenet question= s.=20 =20 If others in homenet think having this discussion is a bad idea please = let me/us know.=20 Barbara =20 > On Oct 24, 2017, at 1:07 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >=20 > Hi James, >=20 > I included HNCP in RFC7084-bis following your request :-( >=20 > So even if I=E2=80=99d only a couple of answers, I think it we are on= the right track =E2=80=A6 >=20 > So, concentrating in homenet. >=20 > Do, repeating my 2nd questions, do we believe we need a specific docu= ment HOMENET document to suggest to include in CE, or to say how to do it, = or whatever? >=20 > Maybe it is interesting, if the chairs agree, to include this questio= n in the WG agenda for the next meeting? >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > -----Mensaje original----- > De: homenet en nombre de james woodyatt > Responder a: > Fecha: lunes, 23 de octubre de 2017, 22:12 > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , HOMENET > Asunto: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers >=20 > On Oct 23, 2017, at 00:48, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >=20 >=20 > Now, in this version I=E2=80=99ve NOT included the HNCP support as= a requirement, however I still mention it as: >=20 > The end-user network is a stub network, in the sense that is not > providing transit to other external networks. However, HNCP > ([RFC7788]) allows support for automatic provisioning of downst= ream > routers. Figure 1 illustrates the model topology for the end-u= ser > network. >=20 > Now, the questions I=E2=80=99ve for this WG is: >=20 > 1) Do you think I should mention other homenet documents ? > 2) Do you think we should have a specific homenet document requiri= ng the support of homenet for IPv6 CE routers, so for example this becomes = an integral part of testing by ISPs, IPv6 Ready Logo, or even RFQs, etc.? >=20 > I will be happy to work in a homenet document if we believe that 2= above is needed. Anyone else interested? >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > I think it would be better if you leave aside all mention of HOMEN= ET protocols from the RFC 7084-bis draft. That document is mainly intended = for first-mile internet service providers, and I think the less the have to= say about how residential networks operate behind the demarcation point at= the edge of their networks, the better for everyone. This would give HOMEN= ET optimal freedom to write standards for interoperability of devices inten= ded for home networks without having to get mired in the tar pit of dealing= with first-mile internet service provider stuff. >=20 >=20 > --james woodyatt >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or= g_mailman_listinfo_homenet&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DLoGzhC= -8sc8SY8Tq4vrfog&m=3D_bR9FvzwQbxh-O6P0rZaAVc0qP9N51NHDxBJbsA_U3g&s=3DWZA2wx= Ll7avD8GFCF7eXUzLwkfVvFzOxKZFGPXPtYDE&e=3D=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.consulintel= .es&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DLoGzhC-8sc8SY8Tq4vrfog&m=3D_b= R9FvzwQbxh-O6P0rZaAVc0qP9N51NHDxBJbsA_U3g&s=3DHKL3FbaYGYEKqIpNRC_7FRP4YfGsm= yViXh2wV5zCEw8&e=3D=20 > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of= the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclo= sure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will b= e considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be a= ware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of t= his information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly p= rohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the = original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m= ailman_listinfo_homenet&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DLoGzhC-8s= c8SY8Tq4vrfog&m=3D_bR9FvzwQbxh-O6P0rZaAVc0qP9N51NHDxBJbsA_U3g&s=3DWZA2wxLl7= avD8GFCF7eXUzLwkfVvFzOxKZFGPXPtYDE&e=3D=20 =20 _______________________________________________ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Oct 24 07:00:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D071389E1 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:00:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U6hO87idzuvB for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82579138713 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:00:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E5E422A7 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 16:00:34 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF9941B90; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 16:00:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 478946B1A0; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 16:00:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 16:00:34 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: james woodyatt Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , HOMENET Message-ID: <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.8.2 (2017-04-18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 14:00:49 -0000 Hi, On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 11:12:30AM -0700, james woodyatt wrote: > I think it would be better if you leave aside all mention of > HOMENET protocols from the RFC 7084-bis draft. That document is > mainly intended for first-mile internet service providers, and I > think the less the have to say about how residential networks operate > behind the demarcation point at the edge of their networks, the > better for everyone. This would give HOMENET optimal freedom to > write standards for interoperability of devices intended for home > networks without having to get mired in the tar pit of dealing with > first-mile internet service provider stuff. I find the model of "there is a CPE, and behind that CPE, I connect another router to get homenet functionality" a bit unsatisfactory. Is that what you're saying how home Internet connections should look like? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Tue Oct 24 07:44:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C099C138BDB for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:44:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TFcrWz9-q8lX for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4257B13EF48 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F4B200E4; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 10:44:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A32B80D36; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 10:44:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es cc: HOMENET In-Reply-To: References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7-RC3; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 14:44:08 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > Hi James, > I included HNCP in RFC7084-bis following your request :-( Where is the document being revised? RFC7084 turns out to be a document which is both requirements on CE routers, but also implicitely requirements on ISPs to provide things to compliant CE routers. I would like to have either both explicitely in an RFC7084bis, or have two documents. I'd sure like to get some of our (HOMENET) DNS forward/reverse requirements= into the RFC7084bis-ISP-requirements. > So, concentrating in homenet. > Do, repeating my 2nd questions, do we believe we need a specific > document HOMENET document to suggest to include in CE, or to say how = to > do it, or whatever? I'm just not parsing this question, btw. > Now, the questions I=E2=80=99ve for this WG is: > 1) Do you think I should mention other homenet documents ? 2) Do > you think we should have a specific homenet document requiring the > support of homenet for IPv6 CE routers, so for example this becomes an > integral part of testing by ISPs, IPv6 Ready Logo, or even RFQs, etc.? > I will be happy to work in a homenet document if we believe that 2 > above is needed. Anyone else interested? I think that we need some additional text in 7084bis that permits a 7084bis-only device to not screw up a HOMENET network. I don't have specif= ic examples at the moment, but I recall we had various discussions in the past about how things might work or fail to work. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlnvUbQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWz9Qf+J3Hi/MpGTdB67PJTvQnZxnYR/1CSYGQSEt5INaJwypchARZPvKlBPLtK 4PnXiX7XQSXCy50ThGiLTNUGFxnAvks1rk0W5eBpAdtOIKdzs4Yg7zqLuQ65tetH NWkePhtSESy029VO0P1i6bTkO7H1V1x0eWxn3OJ0nvRXO87MMJyU4xUS1seqLM8J YQTz2pPbOuXb/JQC0cDfYSS6lPEiSoP2DwSbR4gw0yrA8mo/Y1apWFUdB3BmmRbo 691D1CIjCTp9MfnH7/kHnuV3Upis9W5+nknWr+3FBhQIk8szr4b0Msg65GXE63Pd H/Qm3kj6ZPumNqtErOMrGxRRaA/1GQ== =wr7v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Oct 24 07:56:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6307913DC3B for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:56:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pZoiXh4iPLD8 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 458CA13F6C7 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:56:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1508857012; x=1509461812; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=eoMjfN7mepj9PO54ZtFRQOa9S 1kPl82G+T+Sy14RgTQ=; b=Fn2xmqwBTsAK3yFG+KPh7OVEkvT7lr2MqMZV5CxQQ qJudjhBglrvqX23+Nxw8uW5bdbW0kS85B6gGW0xveZ7dwa8Pklg09iffyAVroPUp Tbw7KvDPXcAf5RFqOORtTpLUU37ZdmzDY/VhuPtHSAt+Mfa3pQwC/KEQQUEsjhHF Qc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=lt3C6guc+Km4ScEz+YiwgXku4GrfnDh+/9a5toxkHYRAVGkH+Sjj2KOTcPR3 /M6PvYI26InVDAxGsoctiQGsZWAppaMXPsw5r/VicOsAudQo46zj1xUSJ CDAYnW2MVRLXYfHfcww+qx7fpDn+8nLoifV805vV+RXdcoaM8eeRMw=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 24 Oct 2017 16:56:52 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 24 Oct 2017 16:56:51 +0200 Received: from [172.20.11.239] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005604307.msg for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 16:56:51 +0200 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:171024:md50005604307::RSXYq+DlGIsPbkF3:00000chp X-Return-Path: prvs=1470615b63=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: homenet@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:56:43 +0400 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: HOMENET Message-ID: <26244C6F-928E-45A2-8183-939DC64A41EC@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <9954.1508856244@obiwan.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <9954.1508856244@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 14:56:56 -0000 Hi Michael, Let me try to explain it =E2=80=A6, just for clarity, because that belongs = to v6ops. I started to work in an update of the original RFC7084 (https://datatracker= .ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis/), in order to include support f= or the newer transition mechanism. In the last Chicago meeting, it was adop= ted as a WG item. Then I got the suggestion to include also HNCP support, and I did, and work= ed out a couple of versions of that document. However, in Prague, there was a push-back, and the WG basically decided tha= t I should not continue that way, and instead I should have a new document = =E2=80=9Conly=E2=80=9D for the transition mechanism and not include explici= t support for HNCP and run that thru homenet. So, I worked out https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084= -bis-transition/. I personally believe it is a missing opportunity to get the =E2=80=9Cdefaul= t=E2=80=9D IPv6 CPE that is typically provided by the ISP having HNCP suppo= rt. So, what I=E2=80=99m suggesting to Homenet is to have an explicit document = for ISPs that still want to have RFC7084+transition+HNCP, to be able to ref= erence in the RFQs to those 3 documents. Regards, Jordi =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: homenet en nombre de Michael Richardson Responder a: Fecha: martes, 24 de octubre de 2017, 18:44 Para: CC: HOMENET Asunto: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers =20 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > Hi James, =20 > I included HNCP in RFC7084-bis following your request :-( =20 Where is the document being revised? =20 RFC7084 turns out to be a document which is both requirements on CE rou= ters, but also implicitely requirements on ISPs to provide things to complian= t CE routers. =20 I would like to have either both explicitely in an RFC7084bis, or have = two documents. =20 I'd sure like to get some of our (HOMENET) DNS forward/reverse requirem= ents into the RFC7084bis-ISP-requirements. =20 > So, concentrating in homenet. =20 > Do, repeating my 2nd questions, do we believe we need a specific > document HOMENET document to suggest to include in CE, or to say = how to > do it, or whatever? =20 I'm just not parsing this question, btw. =20 > Now, the questions I=E2=80=99ve for this WG is: =20 > 1) Do you think I should mention other homenet documents ? 2= ) Do > you think we should have a specific homenet document requiring th= e > support of homenet for IPv6 CE routers, so for example this becom= es an > integral part of testing by ISPs, IPv6 Ready Logo, or even RFQs, = etc.? =20 > I will be happy to work in a homenet document if we believe t= hat 2 > above is needed. Anyone else interested? =20 I think that we need some additional text in 7084bis that permits a 7084bis-only device to not screw up a HOMENET network. I don't have sp= ecific examples at the moment, but I recall we had various discussions in the = past about how things might work or fail to work. =20 =20 -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Oct 24 11:50:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A871393A1 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:50:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8x2ljQECdyWA for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22e.google.com (mail-it0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EC76137ED6 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id j140so11281919itj.1 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:50:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jRm5NPZXULfbD99zA0R8agmA9G+ZTIFquoMUdgFtjxY=; b=kLZ578fqPuA17rPuGrs+F7MmOjPD0na+2QiafhR0093VstWDiG87IutdYAFHhL6Amj aOybFMRgBiD9OvnYavS86rgNkHW0RJvMVF7yLYwg20oFXOyv3liAgOS3fWSkvBplLDJl zYDKD/sFnFH5H4jwZv40nDv+eTtcd/zpumjScOdqL4TrP4+CDpWcRmycpsb3W/CnmaQQ J22zpNgfI0IXBJOoOJBYHDjodCj4pQyeag7vz1Z+AXhEhgu0Zggk3NgaiTP41i1GKuvh HBs3AeqDI/ivAO/lCMIMtqHJOmyrGdQmsVSedV9O+Zqm4oPxDx8COoQOlKsfcDsKlO/q nv/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jRm5NPZXULfbD99zA0R8agmA9G+ZTIFquoMUdgFtjxY=; b=S/PELvMLMT98AGIo7BS+icETYtEa7ZRYlal4E6XDbnpeGmDV/J3G5veOgIvDvT/CGU JQHWpjXgl6vXQRNEQ3WX+oMgAxIS4jlDbgtUkeSvuXFs3Md4YRiUQbFbW7JcxAPcnU1Y QZs7/7P3OYzV5av5Y6Sg7CMoy9q7V04ffzWKneYJ/fBXd+jV4asxgpDDkIm+C8dku5W/ l+1prtZu3JN5XpVycb2WErU6igOHIUHlT6kLjO8nVKnz4hBzCG/D+BajqWymI+g48S9C 6zqnhtx7uNp5DfyE1bGfvi4nwVKhZ8dHMuzItPTlveWiGyi15lShZxxTS+r3l36C7LKY SQzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUFXjhY8l90ofE8cEZHhnmE/b/VckhbbpfoQA6PepxgqBALIupE eZwO0tsXXDb9nnhERlU3rwZyFffJd0g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QYI4p397KrWvnYuzEknNtPmg+yCP+I181xHcI0ez17pMLjVLem0E89eLJlZe/X6Uoi5e3XpA== X-Received: by 10.36.144.4 with SMTP id x4mr13263itd.103.1508870999342; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2620:0:10e7:7:c048:bfa9:aa30:da1d? ([2620:0:10e7:7:c048:bfa9:aa30:da1d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t3sm380578ioa.3.2017.10.24.11.49.58 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:49:58 -0700 (PDT) To: HOMENET References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> From: james woodyatt Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:49:57 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:50:02 -0000 On 10/24/2017 06:31 AM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > > [...] and also what may or may not be good to include in requirements specifically targeting routers at the customer's edge (CE). I think it's a waste of time for HOMENET to propose requirements for routers in service provider networks, event those at the edge that connects to subscribers. Those requirements will be neither welcome nor observed by the industry. If the service provider industry wants to provide input on requirements for HOMENET routers in the interior of residential networks, then I think we should consider them judiciously on balance with input from application and home networking device developers. --james From nobody Wed Oct 25 07:21:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D682C13B42C for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 07:21:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bDN7zoIAKKXl for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 07:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F6BF13ACA2 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 07:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9PELQs7002752 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:21:26 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EB2FF31B9 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:21:26 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id 7F3BeTJmhb_S for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:21:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6DB6CF31B7 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:21:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.irif.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e7MYd-00040K-HX for homenet@ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:21:23 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:21:23 +0200 Message-ID: <7id15bux3w.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: homenet@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:21:26 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F09DE6.002 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F09DE6.002 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F09DE6.002 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile: please review Security Considerations X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 14:21:31 -0000 Dear all, This is just to remind you that I'm going to request Last Call for draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile. I'll be submitting a very slightly amended (editorial changes only) version in the next days. Please, please, please take the time to read the Security Considerations and tell me if there's anything I need to change. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-02#section-4 -- Juliusz From nobody Wed Oct 25 08:11:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103EF13F3F1; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:11:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: homenet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150894428102.4706.17335016568809341490@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:11:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-03.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:11:21 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Home Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Homenet profile of the Babel routing protocol Author : Juliusz Chroboczek Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-03.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2017-10-25 Abstract: This document defines the subset of the Babel routing protocol [RFC6126bis] and its extensions that a Homenet router must implement, as well as the interactions between HNCP [RFC7788] and Babel. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Oct 25 08:42:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D49A713F406 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:42:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vZkKVe8PEMo4 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6D1813F40B for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 08:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9PFgCBE012857 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:42:12 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id v9PFgCR3005091 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:42:12 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F350CF31B9 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:42:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id QgIjaiCbnKo0 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:42:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1B0ACF31B8 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:42:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.irif.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e7Nok-0004FP-Pi for homenet@ietf.org; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:42:06 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:42:06 +0200 Message-ID: <7i8tfzutdd.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <7id15bux3w.wl-jch@irif.fr> References: <7id15bux3w.wl-jch@irif.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:42:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:42:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F0B0D4.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59F0B0D4.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F0B0D4.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F0B0D4.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F0B0D4.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F0B0D4.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile: please review Security Considerations X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:42:17 -0000 > Please, please, please take the time to read the Security Considerations > and tell me if there's anything I need to change. > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-02#section-4 This is now https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-03#section-4 I believe this answers at least some of the concerns that Leif Johansson expressed in his early review of 10 August 2017. I believe this is the best that we can do without further protocol work, but I would love to be proved wrong. Barbara, Stephen -- should I write up an answer to Leif's security review? Thanks, -- Juliusz From nobody Wed Oct 25 10:25:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A2B13F43F for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:25:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fGgvHqDZ6p9p for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x232.google.com (mail-qk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C19CD13F439 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id f199so1009048qke.2 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:25:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=QU1eNd32X3Z5pZ94sORzES+fRKY+pnt0uAG1XTIO+gc=; b=j0HQH0+vaJ0BDlQ0NADekAxmxs8Z+F49/okntQQrpvh72nCgWLr+ph2Whtei95tWod +aYDfeP02PXxVDCcL/m0MvANiJ6QO8LGhFCXqrdSfD6rEDth8Jq86KoK2arzZnnS10mO v0f9ce8nb7e0Pfs6/d3L1NQhxhG+tO3pqvIwliGFP6mC8jwp9HsMEvxO0RAogZ85uXhG ApIM2ZK/MuJjWtwX2ipi0F7z593XDQlSZoXgmZjnunhUlh6Bvdb4WupFT0q2l837gbl7 oea3ERS9u9xbiwaHLfi/BqEo4Sx5yu9oqqbwgyKuTsJ1pDHlTO4832YSMIt/uZty5uKP TOrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=QU1eNd32X3Z5pZ94sORzES+fRKY+pnt0uAG1XTIO+gc=; b=RFsgxq5hRoJo4G/ZHWrMWeX7+T99eBS9GuJIz0ZRNrZHBUUGbmBHglchzwmgRIxMMO 3bqVkDIt/VehQBn3L4pemsdwOOHSfU0mskFxk9n0u2ja3xgvy2E+DqteQtsnTa+TPuSx 0z88OjbcCT3bA3Cfo7X+x1uKJZZLojvTCn4KGk2PRG9xq7hswmYI8fpXyihhcZCaCy38 J0G5YePZxx8bEbxV/N222JuY6JisXNkBffLcQ1/tVQ5Q91AX4FKzcQW7KGrzF0j7E1G8 E09t3b/PnjknHVloJECYKJAlIItO0uG4JBzGSbMQXgkaYjSyjJJ730afnNOlzeR0yTvA hmUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWyYUdXpAW8QZEClDWAZI2vtDQYIdmbcNFj5UMGmnT6p5N6WRMD /uj+A8fV1HB8xPMkg+0/5MSDlg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+S9ph7ZnfdovNJje/YdBsjooI+/ZAON1OexzlLOAjdJlm3hCHlb6EwXZk5LLNltvFTVADSKMA== X-Received: by 10.55.159.209 with SMTP id i200mr4129084qke.277.1508952345916; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cavall.lan (c-24-60-163-103.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.60.163.103]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6sm2240835qtz.68.2017.10.25.10.25.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <7i8tfzutdd.wl-jch@irif.fr> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:25:44 -0400 Cc: homenet@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <270FABE5-AB5C-4CB8-9F47-1C9DB2E88E1C@fugue.com> References: <7id15bux3w.wl-jch@irif.fr> <7i8tfzutdd.wl-jch@irif.fr> To: Juliusz Chroboczek X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile: please review Security Considerations X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:25:55 -0000 I think that relying on the trustworthiness of a link is not a great = plan. It might be better to say something like "this protocol relies = on the trustworthiness of the local link. better security can be = achieved using babel security [ref]. keying and configuration for babel = security is out of scope for this document." > On Oct 25, 2017, at 11:42 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >=20 >> Please, please, please take the time to read the Security = Considerations >> and tell me if there's anything I need to change. >=20 >> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-02#section-4 >=20 > This is now >=20 > = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-babel-profile-03#section-4 >=20 > I believe this answers at least some of the concerns that Leif = Johansson > expressed in his early review of 10 August 2017. I believe this is = the > best that we can do without further protocol work, but I would love to = be > proved wrong. >=20 > Barbara, Stephen -- should I write up an answer to Leif's security = review? >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > -- Juliusz >=20 > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet From nobody Wed Oct 25 10:35:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 003E2139553 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:35:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6thguTnwMSYZ for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x230.google.com (mail-qt0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 016E313F439 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x230.google.com with SMTP id h4so1016685qtk.8 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:35:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:references:to:date; bh=lQP6UN+xwZdYIxk2z+PIpUuR2safqPhi1E4A4NvByP8=; b=08aGTi/XZXgvlMu72IMLSX++aFV2IhC91eFkkp2MeVRZQjHIXrFl2A2H9bifJvU3A4 dlRUZw9tryXpD2uF6MVr5qaOdB3c3+wnOv4fn0bYTswaoA3aIv7qTGEXSpLP+t3y1Moe MS/SBO/uZktSSnqNt3NETEpxdvVI4gBMYF4u+hP/3FN7DWMqRH7t4KpWAg2D7/kNMd9K KC4c7cV3QJD80sq8OUp5aaWkV7XOFFYDJYVXm7bsfwwupmAS7g42gKA7rIJHY28Mrb65 1j9r+cZTPBhYFMbhPotCpQJ21EmJkTjbw4mKbKH1U7/b8K1117FL0fepv/cEEbJ6dvxp Pdmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:references :to:date; bh=lQP6UN+xwZdYIxk2z+PIpUuR2safqPhi1E4A4NvByP8=; b=lTyxIKszou8EafRB0SMFuUOtlEHCzb1FtyVA9jvlAU15l+2e/lstuwPCQtMf0rGtyV MsWAFaVGIK9g2xBLkkRyyFwlW0liojHRz/Ut2ik5C3bFcyndJB2QjdiYdKnTnmGYU/+z 0SaO3dYXXOqZXD96DgFdBAx0BYdA6W5eu6wy9RZY0aasNv8PbNRHKhzwaVhXrviTHU3y TRM27cuUM7NF6eg2WfIN6U+E5k1fo3AzG5DIhl7yVheYSB1wDUsPklGjGAbZB6qq3f1O 5+D+n8vcLs4LA11QuylnHXn1+KmLEShZNaP/e5M8ZnwBmGQHzqmZtxw/vjsTFcSXmT93 P49g== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUIjRnmuOEBXLCqClnhCvr6IuRq6lX3LsbC1Dip2Fl631s6vZut ludcZTRZXUDs8FE+0XAUXXhnuaimEI8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QNWWpNBiRGAZqLprLyTN1Y4gxY6kpOinfJZRzwV9OjTlqKkqnkGFcxs71pDi21lAiI2+nTag== X-Received: by 10.200.27.221 with SMTP id m29mr32313685qtk.152.1508952949943; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cavall.lan (c-24-60-163-103.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.60.163.103]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h135sm2106025qke.5.2017.10.25.10.35.49 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:35:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_27725BFC-9058-4D34-8CE9-59504A06E629" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: <38BC4C7A-3849-4E5D-9459-ABB559FD1D29@fugue.com> References: <150877479936.24868.15415230941614909127@ietfa.amsl.com> To: HOMENET Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:35:48 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest-00.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:35:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_27725BFC-9058-4D34-8CE9-59504A06E629 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Oops, given that Juliusz is asking questions about security = considerations, it might be worth sharing this. This isn't just my = work, but for reasons having to do with available time, the other names = will have to be added later. > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: I-D Action: draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest-00.txt > Date: October 23, 2017 at 12:06:39 PM EDT > To: > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >=20 >=20 > Title : Babel Security Model > Author : Ted Lemon > Filename : = draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest-00.txt > Pages : 6 > Date : 2017-10-23 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes how to add authenticity to Babel messages so > as to prevent malicious tampering or black hole attacks. Peer trust > is outside the scope of this document. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest= / >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest-00 > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-l= atest-00 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt --Apple-Mail=_27725BFC-9058-4D34-8CE9-59504A06E629 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Oops, given that Juliusz is asking questions about security = considerations, it might be worth sharing this.   This isn't just = my work, but for reasons having to do with available time, the other = names will have to be added later.

Begin = forwarded message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = I-D Action: = draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest-00.txt
Date: = October 23, 2017 at 12:06:39 PM = EDT
To: = <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Reply-To: = internet-drafts@ietf.org


A New = Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories.


=        Title =           : Babel = Security Model
=        Author =          : Ted Lemon
= Filename        : = draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest-00.txt
Pages =           : 6
= Date =            : = 2017-10-23

Abstract:
=   This document describes how to add authenticity to Babel = messages so
  as to prevent malicious tampering = or black hole attacks.  Peer trust
  is = outside the scope of this document.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lemon-homenet-babel-secu= rity-latest/

There are also htmlized = versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-= latest-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-lemon-homenet-babel= -security-latest-00


Please = note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also = available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: = http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or = ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

= --Apple-Mail=_27725BFC-9058-4D34-8CE9-59504A06E629-- From nobody Wed Oct 25 12:06:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB51B13899A; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:06:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 51_dAY0WgTts; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6007913836A; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9PJ6bl9025499 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:37 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id v9PJ6WcZ032309; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:37 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46589F31B8; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:32 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id uVH_gsRRIzFE; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 354F5F31B7; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.irif.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e7R0W-0004f4-FG; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:28 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:28 +0200 Message-ID: <7ir2trt5cb.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon Cc: HOMENET , babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <38BC4C7A-3849-4E5D-9459-ABB559FD1D29@fugue.com> References: <150877479936.24868.15415230941614909127@ietfa.amsl.com> <38BC4C7A-3849-4E5D-9459-ABB559FD1D29@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:40 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:06:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F0E0BD.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59F0E0B8.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F0E0BD.001 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F0E0B8.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F0E0BD.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F0E0B8.000 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest-00.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 19:06:44 -0000 [Added babel@ietf to CC.] Thanks, Ted. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest/ I'm not a security specialist, so just a few comments: 1. You're using a TLV, which means that the TLV parser runs before auth. Is this good practice? What about using the packet trailer ? 2. A number of security mechanisms are being considered for Babel. There's Denis' RFC 7557, which you're aware of. The other technique that we're working on is the use of DTLS. See point 3. 3. The main improvement of RFC6126bis over 6126 is the ability to run Babel over unicast with no multicast except for discovery (and no multicast at all if discovery is done out of band). This makes it possible to use DTLS and/or dynamically keyed IPsec to secure Babel. At least some of the participants of the Babel WG are in favour of such an approach. 4. It is my understanding that there is consensus in the Babel WG that we don't adopt before there is an implementation. That's not to diminish your input, just the statement of an (IMHO happy) state of affairs. Dinnertime for me. Be hearing from you later. -- Juliusz From nobody Wed Oct 25 12:12:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42B413F44C for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c4S2UyhHBzWZ for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22a.google.com (mail-qk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 060DC13F44B for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id l194so1382811qke.13 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=5Fc8bpNMjIfsNiPq1B/5NWxxaC+WV5/WVHpRyzafdoM=; b=FTJiW+cPzeVuOTGK6y/Mqi4MvxEAF9ErQQhrgecM2WPVBqKC+dy1u4vBqy9F9xO6fD sj8oUxmwcQKNXKJu/mxxZ8bR22I2pSGEbpO3cRq8xevtG1RT2VJa5qBCG4O01B+67DHj aJGRJel1WR8a8esqn9lXzdhEtSEWNBif8bf+0kAqvJeAUHeH/rub2ZQKeHhe82F/YXQo q8qlCmfwI9eXARtAf04gQTZtb1QKcEy2IKr1Yp7zEGxBPb/shiGZEW6bBzwaE1ybf3sN hdticZEs8aLBVWh3qS0l6y5XmxBl1UrXm7LXa8xRJIHtGg++VhOe/99MVJ6DfUQO4N88 /fGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=5Fc8bpNMjIfsNiPq1B/5NWxxaC+WV5/WVHpRyzafdoM=; b=RPoVyZdRvZDIvIlseg4LFXjIFDX3ANPJVOJNoMttbxuYD2sCTahdAvcyDaN2wEWGlV qPSszPiGYczo6tKAa7JMvBMuOaFKgMC9zDP/mF+0zaY17R5G/MsEW16w7ui94jelExsL GG19TeCiIi2twQJQAnpHkKiWwgvJjtKyIKcJ4vWkhqnYoMG36MnbdkbnEGuNOcDfN/yb H21tb+86rwOuKQtjdqVtVHfe5lY/IzU+dNUeeoZW26mrJ2Z50gLF7e3fWEj+g5emJSyN IcIdLwmsTOsS+Zz/9w4dkdBGmuY1jg+/P5l2Htn0lTFUCqVkikah9A4obdIHJd14+EjW dC2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVRG38QbiO2mcsLRBvwJwNxFu9NFnxTNX1+YdXV20uNmo+cdKGU x3wAXkhQZLZO3IPT7LRNYvGfIH1/TUs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+SWJEPtXbqjaxVWrc1Bb5x7iMNS4rTqmOvCd0hct3fcirIMfja1EKCBV7OtyC15jTgFO/02Qg== X-Received: by 10.55.121.194 with SMTP id u185mr4760287qkc.128.1508958729154; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cavall.lan (c-24-60-163-103.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.60.163.103]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o27sm2323884qkh.80.2017.10.25.12.12.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:12:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <04245DC4-A547-4A3C-8D79-AE2A945050CB@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_401A5693-A52F-4547-BEDD-3B366714D2C9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:12:07 -0400 In-Reply-To: <7ir2trt5cb.wl-jch@irif.fr> Cc: HOMENET , babel@ietf.org To: Juliusz Chroboczek References: <150877479936.24868.15415230941614909127@ietfa.amsl.com> <38BC4C7A-3849-4E5D-9459-ABB559FD1D29@fugue.com> <7ir2trt5cb.wl-jch@irif.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest-00.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 19:12:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_401A5693-A52F-4547-BEDD-3B366714D2C9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Oct 25, 2017, at 3:06 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > 1. You're using a TLV, which means that the TLV parser runs before = auth. > Is this good practice? What about using the packet trailer ? If you aren't using a shotgun parser, it shouldn't matter. > 2. A number of security mechanisms are being considered for Babel. > There's Denis' RFC 7557, which you're aware of. The other technique = that > we're working on is the use of DTLS. See point 3. >=20 > 3. The main improvement of RFC6126bis over 6126 is the ability to run = Babel > over unicast with no multicast except for discovery (and no multicast = at > all if discovery is done out of band). This makes it possible to use = DTLS > and/or dynamically keyed IPsec to secure Babel. At least some of the > participants of the Babel WG are in favour of such an approach. Yup. DTLS is just convenient=E2=80=94it means that it's not necessary = to re-invent the wheel. > 4. It is my understanding that there is consensus in the Babel WG that = we > don't adopt before there is an implementation. That's not to diminish > your input, just the statement of an (IMHO happy) state of affairs. That makes perfect sense to me. I don't think the DTLS implementation = would be that hard=E2=80=94is there any chance that anyone would be = interested in working on this during the hackathon in Singapore? I say = "anyone" because I don't want to put you on the spot. --Apple-Mail=_401A5693-A52F-4547-BEDD-3B366714D2C9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On Oct 25, 2017, at 3:06 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> = wrote:
1.  You're = using a TLV, which means that the TLV parser runs before auth.
Is this good practice?  What about using = the packet trailer ?

If you aren't = using a shotgun parser, it shouldn't matter.

2. A number of = security mechanisms are being considered for Babel.
There's Denis' RFC 7557, which you're aware of. =  The other technique that
we're working on is = the use of DTLS.  See point 3.

3. The main improvement of RFC6126bis over 6126 = is the ability to run Babel
over unicast with = no multicast except for discovery (and no multicast at
all if discovery is done out of band). =  This makes it possible to use DTLS
and/or dynamically = keyed IPsec to secure Babel.  At least some of the
participants of the Babel WG are in favour of = such an approach.

Yup.   DTLS = is just convenient=E2=80=94it means that it's not necessary to re-invent = the wheel.

4. It is my understanding that there is = consensus in the Babel WG that we
don't adopt before = there is an implementation.  That's not to diminish
your input, just the statement of an (IMHO = happy) state of affairs.

That makes perfect sense to me.   I = don't think the DTLS implementation would be that hard=E2=80=94is there = any chance that anyone would be interested in working on this during the = hackathon in Singapore?   I say "anyone" because I don't want to = put you on the spot.

= --Apple-Mail=_401A5693-A52F-4547-BEDD-3B366714D2C9-- From nobody Wed Oct 25 15:04:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374B713F47A; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:04:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DbTcxybmBLAM; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6648B13F487; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9PM4LJI003593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:21 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id v9PM4G5v003685; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:20 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4034BEB34E; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id NDum1rnqmH8d; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 064F7F31B8; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:07 +0200 Message-ID: <87inf251go.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Ted Lemon Cc: HOMENET , babel@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <04245DC4-A547-4A3C-8D79-AE2A945050CB@fugue.com> References: <150877479936.24868.15415230941614909127@ietfa.amsl.com> <38BC4C7A-3849-4E5D-9459-ABB559FD1D29@fugue.com> <7ir2trt5cb.wl-jch@irif.fr> <04245DC4-A547-4A3C-8D79-AE2A945050CB@fugue.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:04:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F10A65.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59F10A60.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F10A65.000 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F10A60.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F10A65.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F10A60.001 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-lemon-homenet-babel-security-latest-00.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 22:04:29 -0000 > That makes perfect sense to me. I don't think the DTLS implementation would be > that hard—is there any chance that anyone would be interested in working on > this during the hackathon in Singapore? A student of mine (Antonin, whom you might remember from Berlin) has been working on that. Unfortunately, it turned out a little bit more difficult than expected, and so he ran out of summer. He'll come back to it, I believe, but certainly not before the January exam session is over. -- Juliusz From nobody Thu Oct 26 07:53:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8331213F5AA for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 07:53:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u7Kwq6xksxTY for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 07:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E67C313F5A2 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 07:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E7320246; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 10:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7944381DB3; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 10:53:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: james woodyatt cc: HOMENET In-Reply-To: References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7-RC3; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:53:14 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain james woodyatt wrote: >> >> [...] and also what may or may not be good to include in requirements >> specifically targeting routers at the customer's edge (CE). > I think it's a waste of time for HOMENET to propose requirements for > routers in service provider networks, event those at the edge that > connects to subscribers. Those requirements will be neither welcome nor > observed by the industry. I think it's appropriate for HOMENET to review and comment on a document in v6ops that doing that. Do you agree? I'd like a 7084bis document to focus less on requirements for the CE *router*, and more on what shapes of bits we need to pass between CE and ISP. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlnx9tcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WX6/Qf/b3b26hvrf3Wjml9bbnLyHZz7pJbqGCbYmGSYqjO4j+B12a8bywzKXomK XCGb8e6Ma9ipm1caOzXNGr2ExIp4VgVpufI+D8xHPSm6XEs6dtsdkzJFRT0uF9+o DmsCRx/g/3PeG03sIP1sE5YVHozT6yhJ9mBR2UqBj4Ccyn7P2Q0qQIWjKGHZ0JaV yRIk+PDTgVrkmzSBZC/PmjsR3gBC4U5bGF854S1rvnSQhG28b3rn4J7q9uRzN1ZV NpbMs3D7t7DuJLq4KT07L9astf7wXRl9Twl7i47Ik2Gg3Vb+0eS2O82BzRNHaN8Q RJdSAgPMlZaqw2jDeWYPyfp9ctvYQg== =yh89 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Oct 26 08:22:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07FB113F4C1 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 08:22:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MDeu_ZhDIPtJ for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 08:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B917413F3FE for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 08:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9QFM1kf019482; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:22:01 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C32BEB21F; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:22:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id SK2702T79QCL; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:22:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 52B19EB21E; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:22:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.irif.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e7jyq-0005YZ-1X; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:22:00 +0200 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:22:00 +0200 Message-ID: <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Gert Doering Cc: HOMENET , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ In-Reply-To: <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:22:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F1FD99.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F1FD99.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F1FD99.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:22:11 -0000 > I find the model of "there is a CPE, and behind that CPE, I connect > another router to get homenet functionality" a bit unsatisfactory. I think there are two possible deployment models. 1. The « My Friendly ISP » model Every ISP-provided CPE participates in HNCP. Each ISP has access to all the information flooded into the Homenet, including information about External Links announced by other ISPs. 2. The « My Home, my Castle » model HNCP ends at the Edge Home Router (EHR). The CPE is outside the Homenet, and the link between the CPE and the EHR is treated as External (untrusted) by HNCP. Information between the CPE and the Homenet is communicated over non-Homenet protocols such as DHCPv6-PD. The CPE has no topology information about the Homenet, and doesn't even know that the Homenet is connected to multiple CPEs. Note that the « My Home, my Castle » model is more general, since it can implement the « My Friendly ISP » model by co-locating the EHR and the CPE. I don't think the opposite is true -- once you've leaked HNCP data to the ISP, there's no way to unleak it. -- Juliusz From nobody Thu Oct 26 11:32:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3302213F5EA for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:32:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XpMlkV-mb-yS for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x244.google.com (mail-io0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A647A13F448 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x244.google.com with SMTP id j17so7465256iod.5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:32:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eWImjdqgzYU1UDK8YJEm8Rn1A0KguT2Q64eW1zRCY+M=; b=gymE7TyGT9VUQS8t1QE7gk3ATGwnSFhc1wjjP060lsMEm3qLsLrU6MbqkBIS4Rry/H aDjfHSi/0R0Abl9VCI1mN2Ukz7YD+Rn4TfNFTjXJUfQM4vW5C6FxNl82wxTd1E5aJDOE ckzdOr9nlcUiRGA3QccA903wpDSaL8yUsA+nCpxKZ4Eof6Y2B9G+JNDYheY9mWyKlsN5 RbiyVkhT5xyeTXE5ObvIKoxzRZdkvnTBI6k2qKLtiAERN0+uUG1VpdHYL6yaHFRdDPDN kSKCpCS0/0PgoWV0sUcoWRUkBqZzzbYDt47vsQ9VPQpanwk9aehVwhIqQLPkl5FwffP8 xaGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=eWImjdqgzYU1UDK8YJEm8Rn1A0KguT2Q64eW1zRCY+M=; b=L71USS2tcgdMYYFnXq285nT0E6igPkZVaBSLKVKkDS+T2e+1MC8niFnPhJYLDquOU3 GceUfkCw618A7ugb3ad4/C95E4o2onGrw5nwXGb2vfRsAflKvekUWwlVxCgQif4kisis qTYOqKpAOagLrhnYsxrnL1pgf2Xs5CXw/KoD4WKC4g63pEWJSCRImBJeklXyN0Jp1BrL g/4IFlY2iR45ZDimQyAbtplPnddHf5DqZchttH6IA3ml2lHpgchsghh9meo0Atb9fcqg NYyqWyNyxf4l8UVgVGDv57UkiP1mEDUCe5TDNhQ2rTzl1TPGnBZkrRoh7dO2B6tiHk3B 2gCw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWg97xj+Fnjrq6Kocr5vnjfevPUroxuOsSybYXN09oMY8sqFiAh Zk85FP3m1VJ+uVmELiV9ZsRfIfkoHaQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+Tfft/b721f29gnEYDcrfrrpWJM+l5RjE9+pzy3IWZVXPofxyjVJmSczb8MmRetKGSabhtRhQ== X-Received: by 10.36.44.76 with SMTP id i73mr3963502iti.41.1509042765605; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2620:0:10e7:7:c048:bfa9:aa30:da1d? ([2620:0:10e7:7:c048:bfa9:aa30:da1d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t3sm2558304ioa.3.2017.10.26.11.32.44 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:32:45 -0700 (PDT) To: homenet@ietf.org References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: james woodyatt Message-ID: <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:32:44 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 18:32:48 -0000 On 10/26/2017 08:22 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >On 10/24/2017 07:00 AM, Gert Doering wrote: >> >> I find the model of "there is a CPE, and behind that CPE, I connect >> another router to get homenet functionality" a bit unsatisfactory. > > I think there are two possible deployment models. > > 1. The « My Friendly ISP » model [...] > 2. The « My Home, my Castle » model [...] I agree. > Note that the « My Home, my Castle » model is more general, since it can > implement the « My Friendly ISP » model by co-locating the EHR and the > CPE. I don't think the opposite is true -- once you've leaked HNCP data > to the ISP, there's no way to unleak it. Moreover, I don't believe there are any ISPs that are interested in the "My Friendly ISP" model at this time. And I would further contend that the word "friendly" is doing some rather Orwellian political work in that construction. Accordingly, I strongly recommend that HOMENET dispense with the "My Friendly ISP" model with extreme prejudice, and adopt what I shall call the "HOMENET Castle Doctrine" as a matter of working group policy. --james From nobody Thu Oct 26 11:39:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C55CB13F448 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:39:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nzJwsHIGVynT for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFADA13F5EF for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:39:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCAD40BA2 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 20:39:53 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115AF40B9E; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 20:39:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 036C86B998; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 20:39:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 20:39:52 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: james woodyatt Cc: homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.8.2 (2017-04-18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 18:39:58 -0000 Hi, On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 11:32:44AM -0700, james woodyatt wrote: > Accordingly, I strongly recommend that HOMENET dispense with the "My > Friendly ISP" model with extreme prejudice, and adopt what I shall call > the "HOMENET Castle Doctrine" as a matter of working group policy. I claim that this is a sure way to kill homenet from being ever deployed. "Normal" People just don't buy a second router for their ISP link if they already have one, or a 3rd and 4th one if they happen to have two ISP links. So, what do we think a future home network for normal people is going to look like? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Thu Oct 26 11:57:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB5113F5E8 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:57:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2nQ-4GtJI2cq for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spark.crystalorb.net (spark.crystalorb.net [IPv6:2607:fca8:1530::c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84ABD13F442 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.15.119] ([IPv6:2601:184:4081:19c1:cd48:a707:414b:810d]) (authenticated bits=0) by spark.crystalorb.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id v9QIvNvU017423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 11:57:25 -0700 From: "David Oran" To: "Gert Doering" Cc: "james woodyatt" , homenet@ietf.org Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:57:23 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.7r5426) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 18:57:30 -0000 On 26 Oct 2017, at 14:39, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 11:32:44AM -0700, james woodyatt wrote: >> Accordingly, I strongly recommend that HOMENET dispense with the "My >> Friendly ISP" model with extreme prejudice, and adopt what I shall >> call >> the "HOMENET Castle Doctrine" as a matter of working group policy. > > I claim that this is a sure way to kill homenet from being ever > deployed. > > "Normal" People just don't buy a second router for their ISP link if > they > already have one, or a 3rd and 4th one if they happen to have two ISP > links. > True, but a fair number of folks have just a L2 CPE like a cable modem device and provide their own router, as I do on Comcast cable. > So, what do we think a future home network for normal people is going > to > look like? > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. > Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > > _______________________________________________ > homenet mailing list > homenet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet DaveO From nobody Thu Oct 26 12:12:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB72013F444 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 12:12:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19_qmmpYG-Vk for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 12:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x233.google.com (mail-qt0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E791113F445 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 12:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x233.google.com with SMTP id v41so5650229qtv.12 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 12:12:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=niow7FoTUSNaMdxCUGY40CfQfDWCYOTnd2XL2iu+Lss=; b=jxcrZo4F3Jn7sloumrRBNuO8gUaxhZ6ribAXSYl2h/ozU6sL7DLYVCFUmtduVsoGgl AQs1AyVRgGrLH9ezSK0K7JROmiBAFj0HQ5ETd+LnlJlU9axvJ+5l0/XcB3cXTCjVoB0l mBpcfKR3bv0Htt1RENFp42diwc44LG2QSHYKrKfw0W8zMA52GROuXThrHOTZCVxK0TxU GIAyw/XN3ZPUS3VF7LG11ftdHa4QFA8XHXccOiJoGe/7stdudEroLnsWkiVWUhZJ2CKB i7acuNCycccO+08RWGTfp0goj6TCCSW5WvVdqVP6fIbqAqhV648MuhdtdKTt2iVYwL3J 1HKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=niow7FoTUSNaMdxCUGY40CfQfDWCYOTnd2XL2iu+Lss=; b=rkSiejr+5DWetRIcGWDWgrk89EOO1xNDg75yhHms6Ctq+JsOUq7ulAR8YPkadQHnhN uO4hk8Uj9uJ42c9mU+bkTchAgA2LIXPcrVLAy4X/KtMYve8q24/oFyr6GD6Pt7Ch6xPZ OTKKTqo8vO/zFZgfOGJlbcwOMmcWjCW95frp9DNJyHFu1ZHTKADIRVA5/wHM/eMXD6Cf mQyxbfYeBKaVQFotbdh+o2zJNPesgigm+EBgOiwELEuS5ewvXivaxVYlfV94OTBCneNF fKKCOSMvEbgTkl9azBRPJB4n+Jav9Y8kO65V+G73oJ9AG2HKTIu2pBxELV6JN4bqbI5w KZ7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVsZNju6VFRgOTguFfqovWr0KxY1JocOppmcRMF5FxOFybf1j4q BDjhW/hUCB0SzLPXumA6FcglXg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QxdyWdhGmeMBqyhC/yfHEJvhnb6xLYSsYLlc2/WrWbspYUvpyqNvGUpj0kv5p7TPud0qXdhw== X-Received: by 10.200.43.26 with SMTP id 26mr39808423qtu.51.1509045149082; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 12:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cavall.lan (c-24-60-163-103.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.60.163.103]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b10sm4059998qtg.2.2017.10.26.12.12.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 12:12:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <0EABB19F-FE74-4463-A41D-D2C87C770B90@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A5329ADD-E1C6-4C80-8F2B-04FDBAC2F0FC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:12:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> Cc: james woodyatt , homenet@ietf.org To: Gert Doering References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 19:12:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A5329ADD-E1C6-4C80-8F2B-04FDBAC2F0FC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Oct 26, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Gert Doering wrote: > "Normal" People just don't buy a second router for their ISP link if = they > already have one, or a 3rd and 4th one if they happen to have two ISP > links. Yup. This is why Google Home, Apple Home, Amazon Echo, Eero, Ubiquiti, = etc., have failed so completely to gain market share. :) --Apple-Mail=_A5329ADD-E1C6-4C80-8F2B-04FDBAC2F0FC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Oct 26, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> = wrote:
"Normal" People = just don't buy a second router for their ISP link if they
already have one, or a 3rd and 4th one if they = happen to have two ISP
links.

Yup.   This is why Google Home, Apple Home, Amazon Echo, = Eero, Ubiquiti, etc., have failed so completely to gain market = share.

:)

= --Apple-Mail=_A5329ADD-E1C6-4C80-8F2B-04FDBAC2F0FC-- From nobody Thu Oct 26 15:53:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 145A913A1F4 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:53:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g8fEDDJZNUUv for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x244.google.com (mail-io0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84A67139F44 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x244.google.com with SMTP id j17so8852242iod.5 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:53:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xdIDtCJLoV9Vi19nQUxgQjG8JUNep4g0Z+vCK6LJdUM=; b=CMY7Za/ibYBKyDJ3vw6+AcPi7yYb8PlGY+aDiAauJBfmns/24S1IaGbpyEvHQXdvDg ote6oB78Mb7PD4/cpWgz3k86ziRjmffn/CL/pybLWqWwteLdSpylYiYVXxuetTzDrLU2 2b371EgkBncJ6usENV83fEtSd68Ajk2brGezhvCZxsAdQ6kamUMamRGmAjC+L89KOs+j 0PjE0likZTCU12n3u46+QBKBo1TcZ/OF1tl1WB9WHtBzZGKuxmFTyWtr3c6akzsop6cd WMlbgD6iLGukPR92HyR+97I2pbbSfTbfciDOYwBTWY+OYqgtfELAy9Gx4rzbhE8NU03h vBHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xdIDtCJLoV9Vi19nQUxgQjG8JUNep4g0Z+vCK6LJdUM=; b=Ip/ad21AY74JHk5CoersFbse494e25ZJ5/yhm/jHwZtnHnNB79+C2lWYneIlEciIDu QMpBH77eFvGgpFVl8bYJzQ6m0kM3XXJZTbvDE4/4h5HjOL5jQxt+7wFpbYQvYtPn4zWr QlxBzglftdIsz/gFQ2Xxv3hmNRkmmE0EXGUlvTUFxesl5GK0vXKirSq8m6HLS+h0POUD /j8kjbOm8F6vKrDye/c2WW+XrkpY80EDmRPI0lgWeSOY5YKcIe3/4Pm6l6Nf5PbmJrU4 ecVAvY3XxjuuycJPbjxd9XBUrwKrPk/KXHmMUBZj1E2+Q5PbLxAp1aBF0YC363hGbFt8 CARQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVTMthkxlT+vks5qGIFK8BGlv5XdUxO/KI6GfUK3nphcVjoofLs wVfwreIYy2m2jbRG28DWC8zFbkDWR4Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+Rx3hdbInRs/CiLgCFzcDFhetaDALs8DNZRh85tDElcE4FZBEunlluj4er5pk6jPhlEaLSZAA== X-Received: by 10.36.185.94 with SMTP id k30mr772678iti.2.1509058414413; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2620:0:10e7:7:c048:bfa9:aa30:da1d? ([2620:0:10e7:7:c048:bfa9:aa30:da1d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j193sm203673ita.9.2017.10.26.15.53.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:53:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Gert Doering Cc: homenet@ietf.org References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> From: james woodyatt Message-ID: <9cfd149e-fb08-22ed-3fa9-9a1786a2a95d@google.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:53:32 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 22:53:37 -0000 On 10/26/2017 11:39 AM, Gert Doering wrote: > On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 11:32:44AM -0700, james woodyatt wrote: >> Accordingly, I strongly recommend that HOMENET dispense with the "My >> Friendly ISP" model with extreme prejudice, and adopt what I shall call >> the "HOMENET Castle Doctrine" as a matter of working group policy. > > I claim that this is a sure way to kill homenet from being ever deployed. I would counter that relying on ISPs to adopt a HOMENET standard is certain to fail. They have already demonstrated that they will block any revision to RFC 7084 that calls for adopting even HNCP, much less the rest of the HOMENET protocol stack. If you want to kill HOMENET, then make it a predicate that ISPs have to adopt it. That will ensure it goes nowhere at all. > "Normal" People just don't buy a second router for their ISP link if they > already have one, or a 3rd and 4th one if they happen to have two ISP > links. > > So, what do we think a future home network for normal people is going to > look like? I think "normal" people don't even want to buy the 1st router for their ISP link. What they want to do is have the ISP link go straight to their internet-connected device. Like a smart phone does. When you buy a new device, you buy a new ISP link for it. The protocols we are developing here in HOMENET are for the tiny minority of people who prefer to build their own home networks instead of just plumbing their ISP directly up to every device in their home. To facilitate that model, the HOMENET Castle Doctrine, I think we'll make its audience-- as well as ISPs-- happier, if we code our standards to the greatest common denominator of ISP linkage, then facilitate building HOMENET as a platform into which ISPs have zero visibility. --james From nobody Thu Oct 26 17:15:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA9913B261 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:15:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fjG7I9amnEp2 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAD3F13A302 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 17:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C382A200A3; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 20:15:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A8B781DB3; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 20:15:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: james woodyatt cc: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7-RC3; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 00:15:04 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain james woodyatt wrote: > Moreover, I don't believe there are any ISPs that are interested in the > "My Friendly ISP" model at this time. And I would further contend that > the word "friendly" is doing some rather Orwellian political work in > that construction. They do exist. Unfortunately, they generally aren't large. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlnyeoUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWq4QgAgAoIf88vXQv6mdVyfh9KTcoo39ZvBQIoJZgg3Fp4R8RepQ1kLaEecNeT oVYpS5xL6+TzNls0LwKLTqMNMJs3pX4IoB5d9ZhZZxLD6+saJ3CASpwIS5qi1hQo Xj5YS66gi+sqABFLFXBIkRaMqjBHiEG0cqXDRBMszpTM5/if8JM16QDta3GHQQu2 mO8AXG6aKsJ+4+8PFeh1kXd32xtjoPeF6tol3Mldc3EH82ybU9427nnvFh/qlb75 8SKa/ZG/hW1qLC5WpzjhKnbFU9XdT5/2risqlVbsSnj4rdoZZyqxNctaC8UDSOBW 0cqzrZL/vCX6klbjA3YVZ0FkoNVxpg== =vQ/f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Oct 26 22:53:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39E013A214 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 22:53:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id njTDFdeYwffM for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 22:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD4B6138BE2 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2017 22:53:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0D440B9F for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:53:53 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D19140B9E; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:53:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 3F3E870490; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:53:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:53:53 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: james woodyatt Cc: Gert Doering , homenet@ietf.org Message-ID: <20171027055353.GJ45648@Space.Net> References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> <9cfd149e-fb08-22ed-3fa9-9a1786a2a95d@google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eCGsxA0cYHoeryHs" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9cfd149e-fb08-22ed-3fa9-9a1786a2a95d@google.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.8.2 (2017-04-18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 05:53:58 -0000 --eCGsxA0cYHoeryHs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 03:53:32PM -0700, james woodyatt wrote: > The protocols we are developing here in HOMENET are for the tiny=20 > minority of people who prefer to build their own home networks instead=20 In that case, we're wasting effort. "The tiny minority" can just take an OpenWRT box, install what they need on it, and run it whichever way they want it. No need for HNCP, these folks can install and configure OSPF or ISIS if they want that, set up real DNS zones, etc. The beauty of the HOMENET suite is "plug together a number of boxes =66rom different ISPs and vendors and it automatically leads to a nice multihomed and network robust against failure or mis-plugging of cables". =20 "The tiny minority" does not need that, the large majority does. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --eCGsxA0cYHoeryHs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAlnyye0ACgkQ31bAZeTO f8Ux2Q/+Pu4mHpOLLEtH4o2pRcbKHESyRFAFUZQlwF+WlnBkFbtCOEMCCDqigKnn q4uPTLHYdZlXQ5gzYWhDHtVXLR42FCY/1fC/6xZJGc78NIePMB07htxLkqV3outV X/9stKxD+WDktqbGS+f2vx3gxVGaHtAVHLzxgl1gE3Vl7n0rrR17SzxVvBTc/olV XtIgntSBMAnJTSTfGatsAr7Yl4bMBN2SbszL38S9nvfDQFMPRNxrNrxx6F4Y2S9i Sh5hjBdMoJs2NZ+CRW2Jks9QlsIL3Iso8nlTVCbEWkJWq5sx0RifkFgVq0Ma2ngG 61nOZHqYxWj5LDyPLbwhDb52kGYQ5d4keXBS3ycRhI5QTF8gZPzil3gODIk0Kew5 Mpqzq+7bZxkVKp9/cDMlJg9Ul0E9+5icxgq1bIURcewl1mFPVUn1hYnbNvfEp5UR PZgLO8CAynNWr0sB82eLKz9/vwxRAbV9UZ9ff/0EZPUbshG59I9pNCigD7/eV3rf JCHT9b86zYckDucwSSgm6nJVwLGg0O0QhS3xbtHBixqoK6XKPlNlqg99Z1KAvYRd xAwjeif4rZIiZ4mjtz8T3MvchT8QG/Ia/4HnZdmSNT96yC6whNpTys7bjFYHoIe9 Ve675/u/Au7o5LmMHfWUY9muvXhs/XnV56Ktx9zyHo17dYuG3ww= =FDW8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --eCGsxA0cYHoeryHs-- From nobody Fri Oct 27 02:38:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 535A013ADD2 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 02:38:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wMC74zci6_iU for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 02:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FD8B13AB34 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 02:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9R9c87c026643 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:38:08 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/75695) with ESMTP id v9R9c8nP009518; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:38:08 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7ACEB40B; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:38:08 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id YtEMBtIBfxFa; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:38:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2276AEB40A; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:38:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:38:06 +0200 Message-ID: <8737652ao1.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: james woodyatt Cc: Gert Doering , homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <9cfd149e-fb08-22ed-3fa9-9a1786a2a95d@google.com> References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> <9cfd149e-fb08-22ed-3fa9-9a1786a2a95d@google.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:38:08 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:38:08 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F2FE80.010 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 59F2FE80.00A by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F2FE80.010 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F2FE80.00A from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F2FE80.010 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F2FE80.00A on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 09:38:14 -0000 > The protocols we are developing here in HOMENET are for the tiny minority > of people who prefer to build their own home networks instead of just > plumbing their ISP directly up to every device in their home. I think you're underestimating normal people, James. I do not remember the last time I've been in a flat that didn't have: - an ISP-provided CPE; - a network-connected media playback device (either a Windows machine or a gaming console connected to a large); - a WiFi network with a password that's shared with the guests. When people learn I'm a network person, they ask me suprisingly technical questions. Youtube stutters when I'm in the kitchen, how do I improve the WiFi coverage without any new wires. My wife uses a Mac, can I stream her music to my android phone, I found an app for that but it didn't work well. What's the title of the movie you told me about, no, don't bother, I'll find it on BitTorrent. At least over here, there definitely is a market for non-trivial home networks: - flats in the 19th century areas of Paris, where WiFi has trouble crossing the thick walls and so you cannot easily put new cabling; - shared flats (students and young professionals), where each tenant wants good Internet access in their room, there's a shared media playback device and a shared NAS full of music; - student halls (a whole story in themselves); - people who need to provide WiFi access to others (small cafes, doctor waiting rooms, airBNB). -- Juliusz From nobody Fri Oct 27 07:04:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF5513F566 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:04:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zmytfV0O8Bz5 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31B0D13F516 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049462.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. 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(8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9RElnnZ032185 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:52:03 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2dv28r7mne-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:52:02 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9REq1RI024419 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:52:01 -0400 Received: from alpi132.aldc.att.com (alpi132.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.2]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9REpspE024067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:51:56 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.152]) by alpi132.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor) for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:51:33 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.103]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.152]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:50:33 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "homenet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: homenet agenda posted Thread-Index: AdNPMrv0SD51j1g/RmC1zsm52MVHbg== Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:50:33 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DC73B83@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.230.215] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-27_08:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710270195 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] homenet agenda posted X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 16:36:40 -0000 Hi homenet, I've posted a draft agenda for homenet at IETF 100. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-100-homenet/ Please bash. Barbara From nobody Fri Oct 27 14:03:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C629E13F5D1 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:03:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2nFxaGSV-tbR for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x234.google.com (mail-io0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E920F13871A for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x234.google.com with SMTP id 134so15397405ioo.0 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:03:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BLlG/9I/DsPykjmKGRNZCKyMdfJoAdtH53fjzI5LyuE=; b=gwnEYdKfCYkT4m59BdlzbSoc+KG/Oc09HPINb2uc9K30ev3YYhDZQgqBZDSt7pj4kp JbOec33nKPdjJBbRPXyJK0xZN3t/8HThiIA6krsU4htrQxJ6Qhg9K8G0TvI57y/3lGdE A16Hv0CP6KUXtGq4gkDn+retd/B4N4B0v4W2rLqt028UKTKA0sI6aGadwLIgA5tds4Uj 9Rh+IQWuffpzfGnXwQ2qEEFs7eHJTSg/+juBrRCDlVn3Sx96KnQC8239A9EsR+I6Ehwm 7lV8SwXZqDYJIg+Vk3GH4ew+ZyQ9Spo2n+LNNVfIF7bLvu2tvQXsErmyU4kjJyo9vz3G Biiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=BLlG/9I/DsPykjmKGRNZCKyMdfJoAdtH53fjzI5LyuE=; b=EbpX+nWMR8ieUrB+ceLxpZ8KcQirWR+kXrLY0Mj0rfCY2PQqGI1H1FyAsOePyNDYKJ ZjCk6BFflI8Dxor8HeYnLfhMyMYjMfxyjr691bp7sVF5971MOkWxV47kQga2AeIK5Y1c nyNpl9263ayVUIt8vbi0XE/0ViUuIOx7VH6mXoklO5l7AOYOn9N3mK1rGch42RQn2plB g1AsXeMMt1VgghgaVIKO6EgVK/Q832MdijEwr/7kj9+uK3v43tEqleib1+ljCcklZ7vc FCdYScIF2NGyjfqp+xbhaejyoYQXZhUJmHa5qEfSd6Xcwq2OMOfL+VwZLh8jDFvoDK/n M/vw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUpJHrwh3FqFJ0Ma8aKosgrrOOpAbNsFCF5DwFU4BR6CT2LiNRL CrODoUKyw+fSZ2QKNks0f4e7d58JfXo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+ShRHs2mgoN1/pDnaUaniC0Y/PerxKnaHv8UAjd7qQvYUXpN4QpGI2lpw/JJjdF5eehU5jF3w== X-Received: by 10.36.80.14 with SMTP id m14mr2414069itb.148.1509138213774; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2620:0:10e7:7:c048:bfa9:aa30:da1d? ([2620:0:10e7:7:c048:bfa9:aa30:da1d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t69sm1374443itt.37.2017.10.27.14.03.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:03:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: homenet@ietf.org References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> <9cfd149e-fb08-22ed-3fa9-9a1786a2a95d@google.com> <8737652ao1.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: james woodyatt Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:00:35 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8737652ao1.wl-jch@irif.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 21:03:37 -0000 On 10/27/2017 02:38 AM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: >> The protocols we are developing here in HOMENET are for the tiny minority >> of people who prefer to build their own home networks instead of just >> plumbing their ISP directly up to every device in their home. > > I think you're underestimating normal people, James. Bear with me please. > I do not remember the last time I've been in a flat that didn't have: > > - an ISP-provided CPE; > - a network-connected media playback device (either a Windows machine or > a gaming console connected to a large); > - a WiFi network with a password that's shared with the guests. It's worth noting that in the vast majority of cases like you describe, the CE router provided by the ISP is only serviceable by the provider, or if it *is* serviceable by the subscriber, the serviceability is ridiculously tortuous and very limited. From the perspective of most "normal" subscribers, that Wi-Fi network with the password they share with guests is a service provided by their ISP, and it's *not* something they build themselves. I've lost count of the number of homes I've visited where the Wi-Fi network and its password were configured by the installer technician who pulled the cable, and never reconfigured after that. People who like to build and operate their own home Wi-Fi network seem to be a very weird and obscure minority, even in the more utopian parts of Europa and not just the barbaric deserts of North America and elsewhere. > At least over here, there definitely is a market for non-trivial home networks Indeed, and I think there is definitely a case for IETF establishing standards for how to use Internet protocols in them, as HOMENET is doing. What I don't think is helpful is gating our development of those standards on the predicate that ISPs should have anything to do with it. That way lies near certain complete failure. --james From nobody Fri Oct 27 15:43:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65D213F5F8 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 15:43:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cKiDs0MlYqSX for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 15:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36676139394 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 15:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/75695) with ESMTP id v9RMhMp4001836; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 00:43:22 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21DD5EB21E; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 00:43:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id HpDOSOtH-A4C; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 00:43:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.irif.fr (unknown [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 03A3DEB226; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 00:43:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 00:43:19 +0200 Message-ID: <87lgjwdxfc.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: james woodyatt Cc: homenet@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> <9cfd149e-fb08-22ed-3fa9-9a1786a2a95d@google.com> <8737652ao1.wl-jch@irif.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Sat, 28 Oct 2017 00:43:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 59F3B68A.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 59F3B68A.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 59F3B68A.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:43:29 -0000 >> I think you're underestimating normal people, James. > Bear with me please. With you -- always. > It's worth noting that in the vast majority of cases like you describe, > the CE router provided by the ISP is only serviceable by the provider, or > if it *is* serviceable by the subscriber, the serviceability is > ridiculously tortuous and very limited. Uh-huh. But there's just one single uplink behind which there's a local network with multiple hosts -- unlike the one uplink-one host topology you were describing in your earlier mail. >> At least over here, there definitely is a market for non-trivial home >> networks > Indeed, and I think there is definitely a case for IETF establishing > standards for how to use Internet protocols in them, as HOMENET is > doing. What I don't think is helpful is gating our development of those > standards on the predicate that ISPs should have anything to do with > it. Agreed, as long as we don't assume normal people want one uplink per host. -- Juliusz From nobody Fri Oct 27 19:24:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5DE13F4EF; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 19:24:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: homenet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150915749086.2604.1305381419097767812@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 19:24:50 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-front-end-naming-delegation-06.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 02:24:51 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Home Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Outsourcing Home Network Authoritative Naming Service Authors : Daniel Migault Ralf Weber Ray Hunter Chris Griffiths Wouter Cloetens Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-front-end-naming-delegation-06.txt Pages : 34 Date : 2017-10-27 Abstract: Designation of services and devices of a home network is not user friendly, and mechanisms should enable a user to designate services and devices inside a home network using names. In order to enable internal communications while the home network experiments Internet connectivity shortage, the naming service should be hosted on a device inside the home network. On the other hand, home networks devices have not been designed to handle heavy loads. As a result, hosting the naming service on such home network device, visible on the Internet exposes this device to resource exhaustion and other attacks, which could make the home network unreachable, and most probably would also affect the internal communications of the home network. As result, home networks may prefer not serving the naming service for the Internet, but instead prefer outsourcing it to a third party. This document describes a mechanisms that enables the Home Network Authority (HNA) to outsource the naming service to the Outsourcing Infrastructure. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-front-end-naming-delegation/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-front-end-naming-delegation-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-homenet-front-end-naming-delegation-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-homenet-front-end-naming-delegation-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Oct 27 19:26:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678FB13F5E6; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 19:26:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: homenet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150915757238.2693.17671331129827192301@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 19:26:12 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-naming-architecture-dhc-options-05.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 02:26:12 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Home Networking WG of the IETF. Title : DHCPv6 Options for Homenet Naming Architecture Authors : Daniel Migault Tomek Mrugalski Chris Griffiths Ralf Weber Wouter Cloetens Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-naming-architecture-dhc-options-05.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2017-10-27 Abstract: The Homenet Naming Authority (HNA) is the designated device in charge of outsourcing the service to a third party, which requires setting up an architecture. Such settings may be inappropriate for most end users. This document defines DHCPv6 options so any agnostic HNA can automatically proceed to the appropriate configuration and outsource the authoritative naming service for the home network. In most cases, the outsourcing mechanism is transparent for the end user. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-naming-architecture-dhc-options/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-naming-architecture-dhc-options-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-homenet-naming-architecture-dhc-options-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-homenet-naming-architecture-dhc-options-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Oct 30 11:52:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C461013F64F for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:52:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IqhnYZVa650y for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x234.google.com (mail-io0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEEA013A1F4 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x234.google.com with SMTP id 189so29513141iow.10 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:52:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QX2WYJKQXonMGm9ZPzjYJRpXK+6QaEP2sDigqWrbZok=; b=dRT0DRBF99qktZwyV1zvcdPC7IOk1VIPmD6bTCq86419aMD1Tv8QCS4bcN61F5iNTf oSPAZMfnz4cj7bexwmg9ELk/BAwtx9xpFIWGMwhxitgAx5UB+iGvkEyH/efg6jXjmxsa Reta17rIqYk8nTzYbD/mSK7zwmb/ifWV+qOf1V4yKcOXnLCK08vSnwOKs4g8E5aFk59E dMDlW4LpDsSwJleFG+l7hmO3tD9pyzNGdx+bicSAqKnHSp3JPP4SEeOqcemTeWwi+L/3 +2+D9Rwb+ysdTfz8rnG1qHxShwhoi17uLPMP+lO1HvmKJ1D+4/GBe+DMhsRcOMaGGOW4 y3pg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QX2WYJKQXonMGm9ZPzjYJRpXK+6QaEP2sDigqWrbZok=; b=j4zw2eFlDzqcZOIsPM+L00kuv6OA6k62hScAQDnhjaPM58frPPg7W0EYUQT2V9SXhC /MQNGVTmGJbUlf2vhVGkf/T3aQJ+edTZbXuSqdKBRioZ1zaZzoW62jwAlJRhDquEOVP2 ftUrb6RFxOgUin+gRkd6bajEBbCmuVPQtK5E5fJl3IolwnqWYw3lFa2DeqfVMo7x9rQE wstdno9mLmzDQsfvYh7D7XPl2A8OOHsWb+xAys+4avcwV6P1z1+k5718GOwt5f3KEt8L 3XRACOK8u2yDpsO4ua8PbzHdkXfi5zg+gmFxBIVHaik2G+lOZJu8wyY/MoGSDDgOtlzg W0RA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUcSMvorVr7QbsWcalq1VHqsnQ9q6PB81WQKkEGMpOWn/nEx+ST e00j1ULLRm/ORMxYg8rek0+drnR7RvM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+RiJV2vHlhNq56IzPg89a/TrPysQm6Xjag+TMeyQ57sBesulZ/Mz6LJg8nEadkiU+AuEPS/fQ== X-Received: by 10.36.70.212 with SMTP id j203mr7019909itb.52.1509389539529; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2620:0:10e7:7:c048:bfa9:aa30:da1d? ([2620:0:10e7:7:c048:bfa9:aa30:da1d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f3sm6361121iob.70.2017.10.30.11.52.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:52:18 -0700 (PDT) To: Juliusz Chroboczek Cc: homenet@ietf.org References: <80D10C70-9411-48EE-8189-87E9401D7F22@consulintel.es> <20171024140034.GS45648@Space.Net> <7iwp3i3pev.wl-jch@irif.fr> <63640f24-f178-2fe7-7c1f-e2680496b733@google.com> <20171026183952.GI45648@Space.Net> <9cfd149e-fb08-22ed-3fa9-9a1786a2a95d@google.com> <8737652ao1.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87lgjwdxfc.wl-jch@irif.fr> From: james woodyatt Message-ID: <322bb4f8-9fbf-4eda-f14e-fb64a2b35a95@google.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 11:52:17 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87lgjwdxfc.wl-jch@irif.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [homenet] support for HNCP in IPv6 CE routers X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 18:52:23 -0000 On 10/27/2017 03:43 PM, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: > > Uh-huh. But there's just one single uplink behind which there's a local > network with multiple hosts -- unlike the one uplink-one host topology you > were describing in your earlier mail. Yes, but the situation is confounded by not just A) devices that are capable of connecting to more than one service provider network, at times simultaneously and other times with some hand-over, and B) subscribers who have multiple devices that can each connect only to a different service provider. An example of devices in category A include mobile handsets, e.g. Android and iPhone, which can hand-over between 3GPP and Wi-Fi networks without any user interaction. An example of subscribers in category B include people with both a home security system that only connects through a 3GPP network and home appliances that only connect through a Wi-fi network. >>> At least over here, there definitely is a market for non-trivial home >>> networks > >> Indeed, and I think there is definitely a case for IETF establishing >> standards for how to use Internet protocols in them, as HOMENET is >> doing. What I don't think is helpful is gating our development of those >> standards on the predicate that ISPs should have anything to do with >> it. > > Agreed, as long as we don't assume normal people want one uplink per host. My slightly more nuanced view is that normal people don't like (but they're going to have to put up with) the complexity of there being more than one way to connect their home devices to the Internet, e.g., 3GPP and Wi-fi (not to mention Thread), each with its own cost functions and performance characteristics. Moreover, I think it would be a good aspirational goal to write and adopt a standard by which normal residential users can build and maintain residential networks independent of any particular first-mile like technology or service provider. To that end, my argument is that the standards we should pursue here in this working group should not depend on any particular service provider adopting it. Much less for the standard to be adopted by every service provider everywhere. If it were up to me, I'd lock them out entirely. And take active measures to keep them locked out indefinitely. I realize this is probably a minority view, but I'm expressing here it anyway. --james From nobody Mon Oct 30 15:40:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: homenet@ietf.org Delivered-To: homenet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CB5C2BE; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:40:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: homenet@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150940322756.28282.5727712883225873683@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:40:27 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [homenet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-homenet-simple-naming-00.txt X-BeenThere: homenet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Homenet WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:40:27 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Home Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Simple Homenet Naming and Service Discovery Architecture Authors : Ted Lemon Daniel Migault Stuart Cheshire Filename : draft-ietf-homenet-simple-naming-00.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2017-10-30 Abstract: This document describes a simple name resolution and service discovery architecture for homenets, using the 'home.arpa' domain name hierarchy. This architecture covers local publication of names, as well as name resolution service for local and global names for devices connected to the homenet. This document does not cover discovery of homenet services by devices not connected to the homenet, nor DNSSEC, nor acquisition and configuration of a global name as an alternative to 'home.arpa'. These topics will be addressed in a separate document. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-simple-naming/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-simple-naming-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-homenet-simple-naming-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/