From nobody Sat Apr 7 08:36:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1C03126DEE for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 08:36:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ko076MtY4bKY for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 08:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (mx4.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6056612708C for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 08:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 216D62801D8 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:36:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 500) id 1AFBC2802B2; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:36:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay01.prive.nic.fr (relay01.prive.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:15::11]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138562801D8 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:36:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from b12.nic.fr (b12.users.prive.nic.fr [10.10.86.133]) by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD4D6C6FC60 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:36:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: by b12.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 044284643B; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:36:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:36:08 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: hr-rt@irtf.org Message-ID: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="gwo2xwp7osg4ftlm" Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 9.3 X-Kernel: Linux 4.9.0-6-amd64 x86_64 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) X-Bogosity: No, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000002, version=1.2.2 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2018.4.7.151816 Archived-At: Subject: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2018 15:36:15 -0000 --gwo2xwp7osg4ftlm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Obvious HR consequences. Any volunteer? --gwo2xwp7osg4ftlm Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org Received: from hebe.prod-int.prive.th3.nic.fr [10.1.81.80] by b12.tech.prive.nic.fr with IMAP (fetchmail-6.3.26) for (single-drop); Wed, 04 Apr 2018 00:18:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hebe.prod-int.prive.th3.nic.fr (LHLO zimbra.afnic.fr) (10.1.81.80) by zimbra.afnic.fr with LMTP; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 00:15:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.afnic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA74B8C80B6 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 00:09:33 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.afnic.fr X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.802 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.802 tagged_above=-10 required=6.6 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_FAIL=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: zimbra.afnic.fr (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ietf.org header.b=WTMDMItl; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ietf.org header.b=hAJHQa6N Received: from zimbra.afnic.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.afnic.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G7tB80olUJ8K for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 00:09:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay01.prive.nic.fr (relay01.prive.nic.fr [10.1.50.11]) by zimbra.afnic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5F968C80B3 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 00:09:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) id AC159663D902; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 00:09:32 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: bortzmeyer@nic.fr Received: from mx5.nic.fr (mx5.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:13]) by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C19663D901; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 00:09:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mx5.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx5.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id A2E7B300172; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 00:09:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx5.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1137) id 0A7073002D1; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 00:09:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.ietf.org (mail.ietf.org [4.31.198.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx5.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEA84300172; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 00:09:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA2112EBBB; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:09:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1522793359; bh=py0sN2LzElvdOZlm7HEsl+ephG4BZ3KD3pHO9rkMAjA=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:List-Id:List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive: List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe:Reply-To; b=WTMDMItlwdpECYxbqk2ZNuWmV3dod36INkgCAkxE+2zANu/ktS2WdWnhl3QWEZuux 4pI8cTZSMcwgaIwBI48YAoqax+6gnFXGmvEqtUANHJ/VMwdH68Ryr2iljVNSh1FEYk rd4F/rAfeZOxSORWBSs8WGD54NeFYvV+jL5CE9qA= X-Mailbox-Line: From ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org Tue Apr 3 15:09:16 2018 Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D1F12D967; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:08:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1522793325; bh=py0sN2LzElvdOZlm7HEsl+ephG4BZ3KD3pHO9rkMAjA=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:List-Id:List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive: List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe:Reply-To; b=hAJHQa6NihJJzbLjVAR0bqlwejI2J6Gh2VmtVyQmYvQ1Wd0sth47zjeDStmFTRSAT wXxiRZXdes7EUMZJGX95edPIXSDe8ni3N+o7fw6ZxrcgSS9axX0kDVWFSuVAKxLSZV L+hjBZL8aQ3ZBUYtHgHtuYVorJVXVgm5o0Phcxn0= X-Original-To: ietf-announce@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-announce@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA2F6126C2F for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Old-From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager To: "IETF Announcement List" Old-Subject: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report) X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152279331966.23985.3238502800355132103.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf-announce@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "IETF announcement list. No discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, iab@iab.org Errors-To: ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org Sender: "IETF-Announce" X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2018.4.3.215716 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report=' REPLYTO_FROM_DIFF_ADDY 0.1, HTML_00_01 0.05, HTML_00_10 0.05, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_1700_1799 0, BODY_SIZE_2000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_5000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_7000_LESS 0, DATE_TZ_NA 0, DKIM_SIGNATURE 0, FROM_NAME_PHRASE 0, SINGLE_URI_IN_BODY 0, URI_WITH_PATH_ONLY 0, __ANY_URI 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_FROM 0, __HAS_LIST_HEADER 0, __HAS_LIST_HELP 0, __HAS_LIST_ID 0, __HAS_LIST_SUBSCRIBE 0, __HAS_LIST_UNSUBSCRIBE 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_REPLYTO 0, __HTTPS_URI 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_TEXT_P 0, __MIME_TEXT_P1 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW 0, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_DOMAIN 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __SINGLE_URI_TEXT 0, __SPEAR_FROM_NAME 0, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __TO_NAME 0, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC 0, __TO_REAL_NAMES 0, __URI_IN_BODY 0, __URI_NOT_IMG 0, __URI_NO_WWW 0, __URI_NS , __URI_WITH_PATH 0' X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000047, version=1.2.4 Subject: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report) From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on draft-iab-marnew-report-01. The document is being considered for publication as an Informational RFC within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/ The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send comments to architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org. Abstract The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions for bandwidth optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted content, as current solutions rely on unencrypted content which is not indicative of the security needs of today's Internet users. The workshop gathered IETF attendees, IAB members and various organisations involved in the telecommunications industry including original equipment manufacturers and mobile network operators. The group discussed the current Internet encryption trends and deployment issues identified within the IETF, and the privacy needs of users which should be adhered. Solutions designed around sharing data from the network to the endpoints and vice versa were then discussed as well as analysing whether the current issues experienced on the transport layer are also playing a role here. Content providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their experiences delivery content with mobile network operators. Finally, technical responses to regulation was discussed to help the regulated industries relay the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-privacy technologies back to regulators. A group of suggested solutions were devised which will be discussed in various IETF groups moving forward. --gwo2xwp7osg4ftlm-- From nobody Sat Apr 7 08:37:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFB812708C for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 08:37:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6KDnvUJZ35rj for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 08:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (mx4.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD565126DEE for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 08:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 4FDAD28013F for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:37:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 500) id 49228280293; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:37:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay01.prive.nic.fr (relay01.prive.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:15::11]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41ABA28013F for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:37:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from b12.nic.fr (b12.users.prive.nic.fr [10.10.86.133]) by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD246C6FC60 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:37:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: by b12.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3A39C4643B; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:37:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2018 17:37:23 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: hr-rt@irtf.org Message-ID: <20180407153723.7hienoyhyemxqpi3@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="swcu7tvypucrtbgt" Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 9.3 X-Kernel: Linux 4.9.0-6-amd64 x86_64 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) X-Bogosity: No, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.2 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2018.4.7.151816 Archived-At: Subject: [HT-rt] [iesg-secretary@ietf.org: Last Call: (IETF Plenary Meeting Venue Selection Process) to Best Current Practice] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2018 15:37:26 -0000 --swcu7tvypucrtbgt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Also HR consequences (remember the discussion about gay (lack of) rights in Singapore. --swcu7tvypucrtbgt Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org Received: from hebe.prod-int.prive.th3.nic.fr [10.1.81.80] by b12.tech.prive.nic.fr with IMAP (fetchmail-6.3.26) for (single-drop); Thu, 05 Apr 2018 22:14:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hebe.prod-int.prive.th3.nic.fr (LHLO zimbra.afnic.fr) (10.1.81.80) by zimbra.afnic.fr with LMTP; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 22:12:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.afnic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABBE58C8076 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 22:12:58 +0200 (CEST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.afnic.fr X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "MIME-Version" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-10 required=6.6 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_FAIL=0.001, TO_EQ_FM_DOM_SPF_FAIL=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: zimbra.afnic.fr (amavisd-new); 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b=GlsOlCl0/No7qmGP3/9EyQneUXUVZ3k0Yc+OWzpYXLcIJ1xCoAvVGSRtC9iiiXJOL a2/XZSyXduPyzrACjmRczBXh/jXK0RGEOjA9GhZZ44jDYhSgDQZ0uyUHoXujTFEPFO LyAWTK9WJYhL/J715JcPiXfs76JZ5zzzS5hB1N44= X-Original-To: ietf-announce@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietf-announce@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2AE12D7E2; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 13:12:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Old-From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" Old-Subject: Last Call: (IETF Plenary Meeting Venue Selection Process) to Best Current Practice X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <152295912877.25912.6342932952771014700.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 13:12:08 -0700 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: ietf-announce@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "IETF announcement list. No discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Cc: mtgvenue@ietf.org, presnick@qti.qualcomm.com, draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org, mtgvenue-chairs@ietf.org Errors-To: ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org Sender: "IETF-Announce" X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2018.4.5.200316 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIIII, Probability=9%, Report=' MULTIPLE_RCPTS 0.1, REPLYTO_FROM_DIFF_ADDY 0.1, HTML_00_01 0.05, HTML_00_10 0.05, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_1200_1299 0, BODY_SIZE_2000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_5000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_7000_LESS 0, CTYPE_X2 0, DATE_TZ_NA 0, DKIM_SIGNATURE 0, FROM_SAME_AS_TO_DOMAIN 0, LEGITIMATE_SIGNS 0, MULTIPLE_REAL_RCPTS 0, URI_WITH_PATH_ONLY 0, __ANY_URI 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_CC1 0, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_ANY_TO1 0, __FROM_DOMAIN_IN_RCPT 0, __HAS_CC_HDR 0, __HAS_FROM 0, __HAS_LIST_HEADER 0, __HAS_LIST_HELP 0, __HAS_LIST_ID 0, __HAS_LIST_SUBSCRIBE 0, __HAS_LIST_UNSUBSCRIBE 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_REPLYTO 0, __HTTPS_URI 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_TEXT_P 0, __MIME_TEXT_P1 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_CC_X2 0, __MULTIPLE_URI_TEXT 0, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW 0, __REPLYTO_SAMEAS_FROM_DOMAIN 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __SUBJ_ALPHA_END 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __TO_NAME 0, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC 0, __TO_REAL_NAMES 0, __URI_IN_BODY 0, __URI_NOT_IMG 0, __URI_NO_WWW 0, __URI_NS , __URI_WITH_PATH 0' X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.4 Subject: Last Call: (IETF Plenary Meeting Venue Selection Process) to Best Current Practice From: The IESG The IESG has received a request from the Meeting Venue WG (mtgvenue) to consider the following document: - 'IETF Plenary Meeting Venue Selection Process' as Best Current Practice The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-04-19. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract The IASA has responsibility for arranging IETF plenary meeting Venue selection and operation. This memo specifies IETF community requirements for meeting venues, including hotels and meeting room space. It directs the IASA to make available additional process documents around that describe the current meeting selection process. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. --swcu7tvypucrtbgt-- From nobody Sat Apr 7 13:43:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F09B1201F2 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 13:43:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3vSemUNkxPx5 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 13:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76FE71200C5 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 13:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id o102-v6so4936646lfg.8 for ; Sat, 07 Apr 2018 13:43:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cs/PQs3TutVsUKRWdaGdh8R9ubqxiUL9Aq07Ncz83ns=; b=LhEfRjd/s1Y4emtAMQJVlafvO5WVr2At9vVHdhq8OnQXquAUO171KQNeupvmLg3S2M kRyBqMLz9LEV5LxWF4r81W9ACZNP/Dr7b1fbc4rHrnpa1RXidTYju88IzvVKCPaB5Yvt ZIxZEMqKDndcXnucUJnqhheJBG4DMDXVlYZs2SyRu5g4B4QI/UXwWYPvAG3z745VLI3G cxxXBgbtTSOKsUDPhDiyBnHr7kLRWdbKnfDroTTvO5qutknLMT2fgmT54Xg0HrmWijuJ qtb7Uh7NMNK8YHlxQaHcnWFLEdH+i1i6d0H2LkrDiQJRdoQgjhdmuFKKhKsbVSzgB3gU N+Ew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cs/PQs3TutVsUKRWdaGdh8R9ubqxiUL9Aq07Ncz83ns=; b=nzCtGxQyDlzySZx+1TdkCYIzP/CQsFLYThEK1I1SaoZVXAEqYECNGRONX5TQ/ZoEdZ JR31h6x+a4+oQCsY8S6Dc13jwJlD0vXtl9IC04dZGtQf+O2Pm6Ctq/mCam3tg6EY8fyj pC4WUJXUZK8RiN2E6i18ZYlCwAfR9Rpeh7sH8ekDL48mllamZw2dvcxPYhPBD3C1xjLD ULeG9NAGM9dIQ+BWNE/lPfJ80r+z+NuWJQPeUZVYFwDDX8cGPzG0hRN6WUtYKkFundH4 vKbBGWBqXZr0KJVEf432g2SyG7Ud63YcDfZ4Ta3WVfuVS98ErFKDGhkLAwjAGRaPJONL 1MOA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCNhoNjtte3VLJH6Q0WDTk/uSSZoOG+mOdibaH3YxHeLh4g4Vqz taUT9Rsjo8LyIAF1vkfFqfcGbAaNKs8pt3fzV5c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+XgWesKl/WC9vwm0AbuQHTmaCVGiErf6fJGjLs2ukhhvC+HrQjfCoJvBprzu+KyvG9pwpNczEFiM4A8tL3L18= X-Received: by 10.46.80.14 with SMTP id e14mr19787145ljb.101.1523133799634; Sat, 07 Apr 2018 13:43:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> From: Shivan Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2018 20:43:08 +0000 Message-ID: To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: hr-rt@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045fb53a129ab805694839e1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2018 20:43:24 -0000 --f403045fb53a129ab805694839e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I could take a look, if someone could work with me. On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > Obvious HR consequences. Any volunteer? > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager > To: IETF Announcement List > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700 > Subject: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on > Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report) > This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on > draft-iab-marnew-report-01. > > The document is being considered for publication as an Informational RFC > within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/ > > The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send comments to > architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org. > > > Abstract > > The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions for bandwidth > optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted content, as current > solutions rely on unencrypted content which is not indicative of the > security needs of today's Internet users. The workshop gathered IETF > attendees, IAB members and various organisations involved in the > telecommunications industry including original equipment > manufacturers and mobile network operators. > > The group discussed the current Internet encryption trends and > deployment issues identified within the IETF, and the privacy needs > of users which should be adhered. Solutions designed around sharing > data from the network to the endpoints and vice versa were then > discussed as well as analysing whether the current issues experienced > on the transport layer are also playing a role here. Content > providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their experiences delivery > content with mobile network operators. Finally, technical responses > to regulation was discussed to help the regulated industries relay > the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-privacy technologies > back to regulators. > > A group of suggested solutions were devised which will be discussed > in various IETF groups moving forward. > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > --f403045fb53a129ab805694839e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I could take a look, if someone could work with me.
=
On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 = AM Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@= nic.fr> wrote:
Obvious HR co= nsequences. Any volunteer?



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0IAB Execu= tive Administrative Manager <execd@iab.org>
To:=C2=A0IETF Announcem= ent List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc:=C2=A0
Bcc:=C2=A0<= br>Date:=C2=A0Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700
Subject:=C2=A0Call for Com= ment: <draft-iab-marnew-report-01> (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Ne= tworks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)
This is an announcement of= an IETF-wide Call for Comment on
draft-iab-marnew-report-01.

The document is being considered for publication as an Informational RFC within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-iab-marnew-report/

The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send comments to architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org.


Abstract

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions for bandwidth =C2=A0 =C2=A0optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted content, as curr= ent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0solutions rely on unencrypted content which is not indicative = of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0security needs of today's Internet users.=C2=A0 The worksh= op gathered IETF
=C2=A0 =C2=A0attendees, IAB members and various organisations involved in t= he
=C2=A0 =C2=A0telecommunications industry including original equipment
=C2=A0 =C2=A0manufacturers and mobile network operators.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The group discussed the current Internet encryption trends and=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0deployment issues identified within the IETF, and the privacy = needs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of users which should be adhered.=C2=A0 Solutions designed aro= und sharing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data from the network to the endpoints and vice versa were the= n
=C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed as well as analysing whether the current issues expe= rienced
=C2=A0 =C2=A0on the transport layer are also playing a role here.=C2=A0 Con= tent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their experiences de= livery
=C2=A0 =C2=A0content with mobile network operators.=C2=A0 Finally, technica= l responses
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to regulation was discussed to help the regulated industries r= elay
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-privacy techn= ologies
=C2=A0 =C2=A0back to regulators.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0A group of suggested solutions were devised which will be disc= ussed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in various IETF groups moving forward.
_______________________________________________
HR-rt mailing list
HR-r= t@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt
--f403045fb53a129ab805694839e1-- From nobody Sun Apr 8 03:30:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F17F0127871 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 03:30:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8iaj0UQFVwcc for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 03:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6146127867 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 03:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f57aQ-0003bV-2T; Sun, 08 Apr 2018 12:30:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> X-Referenced-Uid: 6770 Thread-Topic: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] User-Agent: Android X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----941AJZ2MDN78MK3WEBKE3GZEU5TNK0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Niels ten Oever Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 12:30:12 +0200 To: Shivan CC: Stephane Bortzmeyer ,hr-rt@irtf.org, amelia Message-ID: <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 3dd1f87d90bb9f003914be703903050d Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 10:30:21 -0000 ------941AJZ2MDN78MK3WEBKE3GZEU5TNK0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Amelia know more about radio networks than I do methinks, but happy to do s= o if Amelia is not available=2E Cheers, Niels =E2=81=A3Sent from Blue = =E2=80=8B On Apr 7, 2018, 22:43, at 22:43, Shivan wrote: >I could take a look, if someone could work with me=2E > >On= Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer >wrot= e: > >> Obvious HR consequences=2E Any volunteer? >> >> >> >> ---------- Fo= rwarded message ---------- >> From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager >> To: IETF Announcement List >>= Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700 >> Subject: Call for = Comment: (IAB Workshop >on >> Managing Radio N= etworks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report) >> This is an announcement o= f an IETF-wide Call for Comment on >> draft-iab-marnew-report-01=2E >> >> T= he document is being considered for publication as an Informational >RFC >>= within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: >> https://data= tracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/ >> >> The Call for Commen= t will last until 2018-05-01=2E Please send comments >to >> architecture-di= scuss@ietf=2Eorg and iab@iab=2Eorg=2E >> >> >> Abstract >> >> The MarNEW= workshop aimed to discuss solutions for bandwidth >> optimisation on mo= bile networks for encrypted content, as current >> solutions rely on une= ncrypted content which is not indicative of >the >> security needs of to= day's Internet users=2E The workshop gathered >IETF >> attendees, IAB m= embers and various organisations involved in the >> telecommunications i= ndustry including original equipment >> manufacturers and mobile network= operators=2E >> >> The group discussed the current Internet encryption = trends and >> deployment issues identified within the IETF, and the priv= acy >needs >> of users which should be adhered=2E Solutions designed ar= ound >sharing >> data from the network to the endpoints and vice versa w= ere then >> discussed as well as analysing whether the current issues >e= xperienced >> on the transport layer are also playing a role here=2E Co= ntent >> providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their experiences >de= livery >> content with mobile network operators=2E Finally, technical >= responses >> to regulation was discussed to help the regulated industrie= s relay >> the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-privacy >tec= hnologies >> back to regulators=2E >> >> A group of suggested solutio= ns were devised which will be >discussed >> in various IETF groups movin= g forward=2E >> _______________________________________________ >> HR-rt ma= iling list >> HR-rt@irtf=2Eorg >> https://www=2Eirtf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo= /hr-rt >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------= ------------ > >_______________________________________________ >HR-rt mail= ing list >HR-rt@irtf=2Eorg >https://www=2Eirtf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt= ------941AJZ2MDN78MK3WEBKE3GZEU5TNK0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Amelia know more about radio net= works than I do methinks, but happy to do so if Amelia is not available=2E =

Cheers,

Ni= els
On Apr 7, 2018, at 22:43, S= hivan <shivankaul=2E1993@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:
I could take a look, if s= omeone could work with me=2E

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic=2Efr> wrote:
Obvious HR consequences=2E Any volunteer?
=


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: IAB Execu= tive Administrative Manager <execd@iab=2Eorg>
To: IETF Ann= ouncement List <ietf-announce@ietf=2Eorg>
Cc: 
B= cc: 
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700
Subject: Ca= ll for Comment: <draft-iab-marnew-report-01> (IAB Workshop on Managin= g Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)
This is an annou= ncement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on
draft-iab-marnew-report-01= =2E

The document is being considered for publication as an Informa= tional RFC
within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: https://datatracker=2Eiet= f=2Eorg/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/

The Call for Comment will= last until 2018-05-01=2E Please send comments to
architec= ture-discuss@ietf=2Eorg and iab@iab=2Eorg=2E


Abstract
=
   The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions for bandwi= dth
   optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted content,= as current
   solutions rely on unencrypted content which is= not indicative of the
   security needs of today's Internet = users=2E  The workshop gathered IETF
   attendees, IAB m= embers and various organisations involved in the
   telecommu= nications industry including original equipment
   manufactur= ers and mobile network operators=2E

   The group discuss= ed the current Internet encryption trends and
   deployment i= ssues identified within the IETF, and the privacy needs
   of= users which should be adhered=2E  Solutions designed around sharing    data from the network to the endpoints and vice versa were = then
   discussed as well as analysing whether the current is= sues experienced
   on the transport layer are also playing a= role here=2E  Content
   providers and CDNs gave an hon= est view of their experiences delivery
   content with mobile= network operators=2E  Finally, technical responses
   t= o regulation was discussed to help the regulated industries relay
 = ;  the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-privacy technologi= es
   back to regulators=2E

   A group of = suggested solutions were devised which will be discussed
   i= n various IETF groups moving forward=2E
_______________________________= ________________
HR-rt mailing list
HR-rt@irtf=2Eorg
https://www=2Eirtf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt

HR-rt mailing listHR-rt@irtf=2Eorg
https://www=2Eirtf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt
------941AJZ2MDN78MK3WEBKE3GZEU5TNK0-- From nobody Sun Apr 8 04:58:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E399120727 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 04:58:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GvAQaGLmF9iT for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 04:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89D87120725 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 04:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f58y0-0000a5-6X for hr-rt@irtf.org; Sun, 08 Apr 2018 13:58:40 +0200 Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 13:58:34 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: hr-rt@irtf.org Message-ID: <20180408115834.GB7725@mir> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="raC6veAxrt5nqIoY" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 66f4fda096222dd2b2010deb1ce817c5 Archived-At: Subject: [HT-rt] schedule and selection? X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 11:58:49 -0000 --raC6veAxrt5nqIoY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Mallory volunteered during the hrpc session to create a list of interesting= drafts, and Stephane is already doing a great job with flagging new drafts. Shall we simply make a schedule so we simply assign drafts to reviewers, so= we skip the inconvenient dance of voluntary draft allocation? Cheers, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --raC6veAxrt5nqIoY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlrKA+oACgkQDtg/OkaK yLO6bBAAnFEpg8gtXDdSnTPumsG+dcIbUoEjg0mPg8zA2DX3PcxWDa2+mvHVMQx/ PjDhGN59NNT2VEo9pMwfeo1UuzgdOpw49xez9R+4zILhxqUjNj24fzlzPWIvwQk2 9CLhwGU9FbW/qJIO0zKSDyWQCQA/TuoxWaFdOLDRnDnnZe+JiFqcbyWPejjlFHNp sjBVe1iwB5ioXa66eVgR3S6Pnf5hRLdqYDD7LrA7/Q4ALAqZJzjvAZRrI6Q4RSaJ elxdIHYAbmTsVHZLjr3Qfx7NScgjl5oXONEcSqOZiqhWoHtbF6CAajWY4TrVvzEd OglzLpI1eP5ycM3CHk0SJWy4Z+wG2YHc2L7L+HaZQfuvLNY4zp3aIRB2XbeOzHY6 +z7yI54XGpTdp3mfuHSelpVATLXMxZS/Isgh9WDBa2BjXWO1ntQYXHsh1u4/WPod E5utdV4yhNhl4QevJdtuvZEUx3P/D9CM+K2MNv66jBqFcyqgn8j7igVgimuyb52j CMD6Xa8l/k6I4RLz/Us8Nu1WrvhQPNN1xAShzZzXA7VkUItCqw6w/PEC6tYU0O/u ORc6gA/NBk1BcN+nXHGlQJE2ufkfOcQoZ5evSEhCMyYonMg6n7WwYBp910h5S9MI b6HFB5RK9+LcEyDUAiMVwn2fDOSCxE37PmZG4QCQXy/AmpevIiA= =kJn8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --raC6veAxrt5nqIoY-- From nobody Sun Apr 8 13:20:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8B8126CBF for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 13:20:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GJJwjRGgeAOO for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 13:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F0C91205D3 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 13:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f5GnG-0004zq-TX; Sun, 08 Apr 2018 22:20:07 +0200 To: Niels ten Oever , Shivan Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , hr-rt@irtf.org References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ktAjBtw2EeUqWDtFYZcNNmEMTLrQBalzx" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: cba2eb4d83bbdf72d3179b19870a415b Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 20:20:13 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ktAjBtw2EeUqWDtFYZcNNmEMTLrQBalzx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="TPtb72hJkUjnMAcmdgiK3Mk0Qw02i2RdH"; protected-headers="v1" From: Amelia Andersdotter To: Niels ten Oever , Shivan Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , hr-rt@irtf.org Message-ID: <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> --TPtb72hJkUjnMAcmdgiK3Mk0Qw02i2RdH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US I guess the task is to apply the Human Rights Guidelines from RFC 8280? It's a workshop. As I read the draft report GSMA is defending their regulatory and commercial interests, and IETF is saying "well, make it work while stuff is encrypted". So do we mean to criticize GSMA's self-perceived political/commercial interests from a HR perspective? =3D=3D=3D=3D The workshop appears not to have touch on the upcoming ePrivacy regulation in the EU at all, in spite of it having a fairly big impact on many GSMA members. In particular, GSMA has been lobbying /against/ the ePrivacy regulation, in spite of the IETF helpfully solving many of their regulatory challenges under the law. Telcos are in the place where they want to sell amounts of data. HTTPS increases the amount of data, making telco consumer potentially unhappier. Encryption can also slow stuff down, and while some vendors say that that's an issue of the past, it's possible that it isn't in for instance the developing world. Probably Facebook Free Basic connections have data on this. In some countries, notably the UK, telcos may be under obligation to generally filter connections (ensure they're porn-free). I find that policy disagreeable, but nevertheless it's there. For telcos it's a challenge. In Sweden, before the EU open internet regulation entered into effect, several telcos were investigated for traffic prioritisation (which was suspected to run contrary to ePrivacy directive obligations not to monitor traffic). Ironically, the EU open internet law kind of permitted commercially motivated traffic discrimination so those inquiries have since been cancelled. The new ANACOM case in Portugal may change this interpretation of what the open internet regulation says, but I don't perceive Portugal to be heading in that direction. best regards, Amelia On 2018-04-08 12:30, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Amelia know more about radio networks than I do methinks, but happy to > do so if Amelia is not available. > > Cheers, > > Niels > > Sent from Blue > On Apr 7, 2018, at 22:43, Shivan > wrote: > > I could take a look, if someone could work with me. > > On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer > > wrote: > > Obvious HR consequences. Any volunteer? > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From:=C2=A0IAB Executive Administrative Manager > > To:=C2=A0IETF Announcement List > > Cc:=C2=A0 > Bcc:=C2=A0 > Date:=C2=A0Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700 > Subject:=C2=A0Call for Comment: (I= AB > Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World > (MaRNEW) Report) > This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on > draft-iab-marnew-report-01. > > The document is being considered for publication as an > Informational RFC > within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/ > > The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send > comments to > architecture-discuss@ietf.org > and iab@iab.org > . > > > Abstract > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions for= bandwidth > =C2=A0 =C2=A0optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted cont= ent, as > current > =C2=A0 =C2=A0solutions rely on unencrypted content which is not= > indicative of the > =C2=A0 =C2=A0security needs of today's Internet users.=C2=A0 Th= e workshop > gathered IETF > =C2=A0 =C2=A0attendees, IAB members and various organisations i= nvolved > in the > =C2=A0 =C2=A0telecommunications industry including original equ= ipment > =C2=A0 =C2=A0manufacturers and mobile network operators. > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0The group discussed the current Internet encryptio= n trends and > =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployment issues identified within the IETF, and = the > privacy needs > =C2=A0 =C2=A0of users which should be adhered.=C2=A0 Solutions = designed > around sharing > =C2=A0 =C2=A0data from the network to the endpoints and vice ve= rsa were then > =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed as well as analysing whether the current= issues > experienced > =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the transport layer are also playing a role her= e.=C2=A0 Content > =C2=A0 =C2=A0providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their ex= periences > delivery > =C2=A0 =C2=A0content with mobile network operators.=C2=A0 Final= ly, technical > responses > =C2=A0 =C2=A0to regulation was discussed to help the regulated > industries relay > =C2=A0 =C2=A0the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-p= rivacy > technologies > =C2=A0 =C2=A0back to regulators. > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0A group of suggested solutions were devised which = will be > discussed > =C2=A0 =C2=A0in various IETF groups moving forward. > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 --TPtb72hJkUjnMAcmdgiK3Mk0Qw02i2RdH-- --ktAjBtw2EeUqWDtFYZcNNmEMTLrQBalzx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Mon, 9 Apr 2018 04:42:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yX58wCrNU9Yk for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 04:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F21E712426E for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 04:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f5VC8-0007gy-9g; Mon, 09 Apr 2018 13:42:45 +0200 To: Amelia Andersdotter , Shivan Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , hr-rt@irtf.org References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="14AlYwssHk2iILnshUhqAgV6anM1ydSAO" X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 693e5d8edd43f80314747bb60e2b8381 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 11:42:51 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --14AlYwssHk2iILnshUhqAgV6anM1ydSAO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="NH5uPbJ0byzZ3VdWHhBr75vHcZU2Sz6Yq"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: Amelia Andersdotter , Shivan Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , hr-rt@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> --NH5uPbJ0byzZ3VdWHhBr75vHcZU2Sz6Yq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Amelia, On 04/08/2018 10:19 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote: > I guess the task is to apply the Human Rights Guidelines from RFC 8280?= > Rather the guidelines doc: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00 And feedback any potentially useful changes. > It's a workshop. As I read the draft report GSMA is defending their > regulatory and commercial interests, and IETF is saying "well, make it > work while stuff is encrypted". >=20 > So do we mean to criticize GSMA's self-perceived political/commercial > interests from a HR perspective? >=20 We seek to understand the potential impact for the ability of end-users to excercise their human rights, a consequence for that could be to criticize the proposed architectural reordering. > =3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > The workshop appears not to have touch on the upcoming ePrivacy > regulation in the EU at all, in spite of it having a fairly big impact > on many GSMA members. In particular, GSMA has been lobbying /against/ > the ePrivacy regulation, in spite of the IETF helpfully solving many of= > their regulatory challenges under the law. Interesting - this could fall under the privacy part. >=20 > Telcos are in the place where they want to sell amounts of data. HTTPS > increases the amount of data, making telco consumer potentially decreases, right? > unhappier. Encryption can also slow stuff down, and while some vendors > say that that's an issue of the past, it's possible that it isn't in fo= r > instance the developing world. Probably Facebook Free Basic connections= > have data on this. >=20 > In some countries, notably the UK, telcos may be under obligation to > generally filter connections (ensure they're porn-free). I find that > policy disagreeable, but nevertheless it's there. For telcos it's a > challenge. >=20 This has an impact on FoE. I don't think we need to have an opinion on everything from the get-go, but rather show the (potential) implications.= > In Sweden, before the EU open internet regulation entered into effect, > several telcos were investigated for traffic prioritisation (which was > suspected to run contrary to ePrivacy directive obligations not to > monitor traffic). Ironically, the EU open internet law kind of permitte= d > commercially motivated traffic discrimination so those inquiries have > since been cancelled. The new ANACOM case in Portugal may change this > interpretation of what the open internet regulation says, but I don't > perceive Portugal to be heading in that direction. >=20 Cheers, Niels > best regards, >=20 > Amelia >=20 > On 2018-04-08 12:30, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> Amelia know more about radio networks than I do methinks, but happy to= >> do so if Amelia is not available. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Niels >> >> Sent from Blue >> On Apr 7, 2018, at 22:43, Shivan > > wrote: >> >> I could take a look, if someone could work with me. >> >> On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer >> > wrote: >> >> Obvious HR consequences. Any volunteer? >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From:=C2=A0IAB Executive Administrative Manager > > >> To:=C2=A0IETF Announcement List > > >> Cc:=C2=A0 >> Bcc:=C2=A0 >> Date:=C2=A0Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700 >> Subject:=C2=A0Call for Comment: (= IAB >> Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World >> (MaRNEW) Report) >> This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on >> draft-iab-marnew-report-01. >> >> The document is being considered for publication as an >> Informational RFC >> within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/ >> >> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send >> comments to >> architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> and iab@iab.org >> . >> >> >> Abstract >> >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions fo= r bandwidth >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted con= tent, as >> current >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0solutions rely on unencrypted content which is no= t >> indicative of the >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0security needs of today's Internet users.=C2=A0 T= he workshop >> gathered IETF >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0attendees, IAB members and various organisations = involved >> in the >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0telecommunications industry including original eq= uipment >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0manufacturers and mobile network operators. >> >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The group discussed the current Internet encrypti= on trends and >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployment issues identified within the IETF, and= the >> privacy needs >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0of users which should be adhered.=C2=A0 Solutions= designed >> around sharing >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0data from the network to the endpoints and vice v= ersa were then >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed as well as analysing whether the curren= t issues >> experienced >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the transport layer are also playing a role he= re.=C2=A0 Content >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their e= xperiences >> delivery >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0content with mobile network operators.=C2=A0 Fina= lly, technical >> responses >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0to regulation was discussed to help the regulated= >> industries relay >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-= privacy >> technologies >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0back to regulators. >> >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0A group of suggested solutions were devised which= will be >> discussed >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0in various IETF groups moving forward. >> _______________________________________________ >> HR-rt mailing list >> HR-rt@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> >> HR-rt mailing list >> HR-rt@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt >> >=20 --NH5uPbJ0byzZ3VdWHhBr75vHcZU2Sz6Yq-- --14AlYwssHk2iILnshUhqAgV6anM1ydSAO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlrLUbIACgkQDtg/OkaK yLOQlw/+PUiE2j+jTi/aP4Smaz8fahpD6IUuih5G5z95ncyRD4Kfzk2YN6gnFB69 38virM8VF+QQlcqYorEN6zXj45tZf2uFnjFK3vG0uoKhMmcCMRkh4wDJlbiKNNYo HNKGBU7Hg5POIPWXsTqPbiGIUVl5IGvDC4udBT6dZBwOU8nivWIgqni4jj1O8YK2 JfImcu2qSxventtlFvex9mlBosGxaVuhP2b/GU2E+7vK2RFncyqEnwyGIoUAWzpQ 0fGr9UJ9lsqojTBXqV9lMHe+4VyO+/5dITOFX/lGsKCLpid971F9nkMd7Rs/htWy dN5TE1LVD4u2j0pUQAaDQGth3wKAyCFNGr4PAeK6qkRVBXOcAlwM/oMTvXe6yiVV teeNAWCJ/H/R8LKjzPHIZTzUq4xXTD6Un2Meh5/GpzQ059SucgHxLfCJqN6ZSV/h mSMQXMIS53nywZdbkLSah6TvxkhxS8WCopjtDLGEKw+JiJ/xkElcgv5G+EKZKBX4 CEGJLy4HUdCMQbUMQHwiJJg0OLT5mgdER5FkWSdq1MXkFBFCZr8E0Dduyf0rTaRd KxjdFGNmmQhf9fY+lFegx8O9bD8HKZKnz/Io/tC12RnKAk22ad+cwaOm5VMV/HUF A1d+WzULiGLqEhqNpPl25HUAyR2KpLq+OVzKpcKJQ0fHC6IMRQA= =34Ch -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --14AlYwssHk2iILnshUhqAgV6anM1ydSAO-- From nobody Mon Apr 9 04:51:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945F4124B17 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 04:51:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sTMX1K6b8tzQ for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 04:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 071A91241F5 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 04:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f5VKl-0000rk-GL; Mon, 09 Apr 2018 13:51:39 +0200 To: hr-rt@irtf.org, Corinne Cath References: <20180407153723.7hienoyhyemxqpi3@nic.fr> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180407153723.7hienoyhyemxqpi3@nic.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 645486d610a00fe5591aab0f6aa1616b Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [iesg-secretary@ietf.org: Last Call: (IETF Plenary Meeting Venue Selection Process) to Best Current Practice] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 11:51:43 -0000 I know Corinne (cc) followed this closely - Corinne do you feel like writing a review of this with the guidelines? Cheers, Niels On 04/07/2018 05:37 PM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > Also HR consequences (remember the discussion about gay (lack of) > rights in Singapore. > > > > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > From nobody Mon Apr 9 10:24:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2261271FD for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 10:24:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BJePGDpp0f1F for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 10:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A20B612702E for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 10:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f5aWN-00077B-Jw; Mon, 09 Apr 2018 19:24:00 +0200 To: Niels ten Oever , Shivan Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , hr-rt@irtf.org, Gordon Lennox References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFjWlnsBEAC+jUN+LJE+mmxEL8lHSrvg47xSBMb9GdtH1Jr8tRSxXiO6R5E+FydsfqkL sjO0dI3x/VnNBi/kgPFFWiAzDEwGTiR/C9b/Muo+xrY+it6e49N56LTPGezrY2dy5yo6VcLl 7UwGz3fIWiNIj7dvuoPMBoO1uacF073E+dqDM5CmNh6o+OrHW8zhUlC9hKgXCq+8XpZJw90H un1zsHF0sRDiurjfYaCcbdAGK9+th9378ed1ZvLVo5uBVQXdydl3eJkNCOELq7VOS7oxSliA uX5/nj9A4LjeeYXgNbwGfKrMjlffP0FcAcgfzg9seqDd1DEk9EVaUMTr32fbWOQHjinXSC7r Lw4xaNfoBebIe1M6z16Xg7+bXXCTdmJYcL9ugmkvT6tGnR12Pfoca1oBwXPvA0VIRi86kCSU D9qvZ3Vl07MKD2hsvFkGZJOQfEaYv5QLpCWv6RCjfDNC05IyMeSW4H18Fr/BoHX8FXHV3+9H LsbJQ/Zrofd/Cm+TKEmXLAtYc7iXvzV+mw3/u0VYqjEy/CRYa62Ah0NNNVIuswfRVIfx3UZo jX4y8j2Kh0jtUV5A4GGf8H3SzQ/cB0I7wTRHU9mCPVCtH6M26nPumL4Zr4D6uGnAmPf9xnlX lokOn2Qxf/mBldsL41PDbEpYhZvvn5kJ/Z9Qh7Fks/hfTbbJowARAQABzSxBbWVsaWEgQW5k ZXJzZG90dGVyIDxhbWVsaWFAYW5kZXJzZG90dGVyLmNjPsLBlwQTAQgAQQIbIwUJCWYBgAUL CQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgBYhBD1dtsq4UrmIBVpqb/7xwpS06AtVBQJY1pdiAhkB AAoJEP7xwpS06AtVI0sP/Al6eUycymdT1R7v0uEQv4coonnOUV6FKj/4wc+wM+A0h7vlqADr j4nS7RRSQRUo8xJ9tvR9J1Eyske5bvakOYv64f9PrNY1Z6ABhJzK34kJxekEfeLmpXAB4wst GhD8dGC/z/b9Oau0AW1GWIP0eNWq4acDf9Qf+j0wqQi25OZUXnu5KeUX7mvPTHKZLyEZlwHV atXmZHWKnQWtEPZTQfv/zESsoBAm1TbaLapgxVG9uLW+I9kj72TB/AZ5hMSKMYWZ2dC+8eEs Xd22tn6907aUmZhFT89jbEyS996WeZ+SQ5G1Okrq02qYXcCi5vm3AuvLlbRYHguh42TLaVq1 er7PiYOYH77FFmnZWW6ChFnf7xsDep2tpNxn+QUZLgO3+5kL7TfO7D2H57kjVVMdkNn+01nz kfcn76K7nuU6Dc4pItPzbDndhdxulnm9cicOEfGQqvta9ffxk4YWyAu9PUNARVRNf6OnoDQQ Zo8l1o37q9PFXJyQwzvxdd9u6uzTny2wp9eig75pD3dYHCRIQeYmkv1kB81mc86cwgvuw1Qy /QwiCBNXSSuIvLO78b+/dB0DLVQC/c6gtyWXRpC4ysF4EaEZophjT60d12YRanR+fWuH+qu2 wsT+z1d4tC5/6UJMPr3bxREh9JHThm5Y3cDBmcn0PGqtDKkwjCkqex5bzsFNBFjWlnsBEADF jusaTo9W8VeWluCK/oJqyyyF1wMvou0ldfuoOpUZrOqsY67TM7yBqsv5COPVgAV+xp+axor5 oHWxibd283w0Ok4dK6tvtNGwUqyDRlHtQ92DG/u4Tg5eOwrHNUn73/rfeBD9KhKAXcNKKPoc cLgR8oQTXpO7eRo+0NI52pXQ6LdZ0wddYeTcHglsNKN1TK+CyYS7xfGolsZXXoBOKcyhfj/c kPFVIHWpGpEtcYWTZWvXgLprzHvpKzkzNyBwejaXE+bqCT2dRl3omI/e2t3Vq33hFUUSAdxr FF29vMX/YsSnYqsFOIoayna+TRsDFAfZvbvHBOMckeJzvA8yBdadw7CM08Uw8wqH7n9BA3oq //QpZJekPfrc2E9nM9H0d51T0uStLMbYDWdwxvfPA3p9z8L91vobt8bM/Jbhl9h+X2Yq9oBC iTI7b2izYd9FVG4BwBIdeh3bh9R9HExgRjF3XQ6uafT3pcVOPASdv9FRUYH1Va7QWQifoha0 B7UXKx1OpX1Z6XR2NQ9KN2MvlwvBKdHtm6tBzUIFzW6D8vUOxiYKBA4fppJt/LJF4jsaCEyI /CVQnkC0yL5DKFOdigxTipwEL9Uc6r7VfR5OAGFd6vzuJFy+j+/WhzaVT1oVYp6eQXh0bBtq qH2Mq9sAMnIjvaNYIKiQKgMa1Pa3OWQbQQARAQABwsF8BBgBCAAmFiEEPV22yrhSuYgFWmpv /vHClLToC1UFAljWlnsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQ/vHClLToC1XnRw//W4lzE8FddceKXGRwO/T1 u4uzH9EjPCj+3/eHCrLI+h1m7QPyH1DrFAtZBoA6UoaF0+vIAJXM9/HI1FZ09EUdJr5X/+YR EErFom4DbE1FK8fpK1/Hw2zI+7Xa8bVkmYrKhMGhi1Gq6Dtksn/H4USdJL53ZPt10SVNK7H3 w93Yp1GC4+0zWjfrsKfsHYZZr2SZyb5/gZlngfgaqiQLhIcPYmiU1GQi9QWkGxWRxk0YQXBw hekewvgltATxlRSCwguAi4uck9fAct9GGdpsshSOgAb9YIAnEV3EqaGnf0PknXp3vNHAZWrf M+RyuNdm2L5TjDU0rIrvyqGP3pR33cREGOAil5Sz2uFArmwsPt8VffbEXlf7qZqRBKaYeKt0 qnxKMx1+e1JilVsfb8qtnAWAFDyR0HMlVj/dvGAmq/auPSOAUWRSnDRyT6rv/vXxrbkL4uxW ax46qdpDhR15mS5MTng6b5b3Uox7xlveo/Sx71AdNf4goPvB/ntv0DiMuh+fmLGk3zrxs4Xd 30Sx+qQwVaXR5xc5rgnF81wvfmuAOb2eP9mpD6DoabkpxC8fLk17AK7Q1ZTgcZ+8XLRFnavd PrwCa9RU0BF53lJMSTPzyBcMwZ4sqA6Z5IRFVt7rEbSeeD8REiawo+FvVt9j0fKdNEBeaJ3W Y5hlhNPcUXr4q1U= Organization: ARTICLE19 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 19:23:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9rAUGAe6geatFISO6yJpjDM5hUQ3i5vUg" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 83b7c7fca54da338aa3d4d8066e35af0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 17:24:06 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --9rAUGAe6geatFISO6yJpjDM5hUQ3i5vUg Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="XDGJv6eC2u9tCS05ZdJBuMOUSFiHDXPk4"; protected-headers="v1" From: Amelia Andersdotter To: Niels ten Oever , Shivan Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , hr-rt@irtf.org, Gordon Lennox Message-ID: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> In-Reply-To: --XDGJv6eC2u9tCS05ZdJBuMOUSFiHDXPk4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US How easiest to draft? i started something here: https://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/pull/221/files#diff-989e50ba297c8bab8fe= 8fbd3759ac6d2 there's some semantics in this (first), and then i started the evaluation by removing those considerations that i thought were either already addressed, or that would best be addressed elsewhere. i find it ironic that the telcos don't want to share their APIs /with their own customers and users(!)/ out of competition concerns. normally, i'm the customer of by telco, i don't compete with it. but a big problem in the mobile markets could then be that vertically integrated operators can be both mobile OS or mobile app providers /and/ Mobile Network Operators at the same time. Oh, if only the telcos had lobbied for a competetitve market regulation(!) how many of their current predicaments (and also end-user human rights concerns) could be solved. but ok. /end whiny transmission amelia On 2018-04-09 13:42, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi Amelia, > > > On 04/08/2018 10:19 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote: >> I guess the task is to apply the Human Rights Guidelines from RFC 8280= ? >> > Rather the guidelines doc: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00 > > And feedback any potentially useful changes. > > >> It's a workshop. As I read the draft report GSMA is defending their >> regulatory and commercial interests, and IETF is saying "well, make it= >> work while stuff is encrypted". >> >> So do we mean to criticize GSMA's self-perceived political/commercial >> interests from a HR perspective? >> > We seek to understand the potential impact for the ability of end-users= > to excercise their human rights, a consequence for that could be to > criticize the proposed architectural reordering. > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D >> >> The workshop appears not to have touch on the upcoming ePrivacy >> regulation in the EU at all, in spite of it having a fairly big impact= >> on many GSMA members. In particular, GSMA has been lobbying /against/ >> the ePrivacy regulation, in spite of the IETF helpfully solving many o= f >> their regulatory challenges under the law. > Interesting - this could fall under the privacy part. > >> Telcos are in the place where they want to sell amounts of data. HTTPS= >> increases the amount of data, making telco consumer potentially > decreases, right? > >> unhappier. Encryption can also slow stuff down, and while some vendors= >> say that that's an issue of the past, it's possible that it isn't in f= or >> instance the developing world. Probably Facebook Free Basic connection= s >> have data on this. >> >> In some countries, notably the UK, telcos may be under obligation to >> generally filter connections (ensure they're porn-free). I find that >> policy disagreeable, but nevertheless it's there. For telcos it's a >> challenge. >> > This has an impact on FoE. I don't think we need to have an opinion on > everything from the get-go, but rather show the (potential) implication= s. > >> In Sweden, before the EU open internet regulation entered into effect,= >> several telcos were investigated for traffic prioritisation (which was= >> suspected to run contrary to ePrivacy directive obligations not to >> monitor traffic). Ironically, the EU open internet law kind of permitt= ed >> commercially motivated traffic discrimination so those inquiries have >> since been cancelled. The new ANACOM case in Portugal may change this >> interpretation of what the open internet regulation says, but I don't >> perceive Portugal to be heading in that direction. >> > Cheers, > > Niels > >> best regards, >> >> Amelia >> >> On 2018-04-08 12:30, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>> Amelia know more about radio networks than I do methinks, but happy t= o >>> do so if Amelia is not available. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Niels >>> >>> Sent from Blue >>> On Apr 7, 2018, at 22:43, Shivan >> > wrote: >>> >>> I could take a look, if someone could work with me. >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Obvious HR consequences. Any volunteer? >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From:=C2=A0IAB Executive Administrative Manager >> > >>> To:=C2=A0IETF Announcement List >> > >>> Cc:=C2=A0 >>> Bcc:=C2=A0 >>> Date:=C2=A0Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700 >>> Subject:=C2=A0Call for Comment: = (IAB >>> Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World >>> (MaRNEW) Report) >>> This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on >>> draft-iab-marnew-report-01. >>> >>> The document is being considered for publication as an >>> Informational RFC >>> within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/ >>> >>> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send >>> comments to >>> architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>> and iab@iab.org >>> . >>> >>> >>> Abstract >>> >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions f= or bandwidth >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted co= ntent, as >>> current >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0solutions rely on unencrypted content which is n= ot >>> indicative of the >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0security needs of today's Internet users.=C2=A0 = The workshop >>> gathered IETF >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0attendees, IAB members and various organisations= involved >>> in the >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0telecommunications industry including original e= quipment >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0manufacturers and mobile network operators. >>> >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The group discussed the current Internet encrypt= ion trends and >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployment issues identified within the IETF, an= d the >>> privacy needs >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0of users which should be adhered.=C2=A0 Solution= s designed >>> around sharing >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0data from the network to the endpoints and vice = versa were then >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed as well as analysing whether the curre= nt issues >>> experienced >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the transport layer are also playing a role h= ere.=C2=A0 Content >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their = experiences >>> delivery >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0content with mobile network operators.=C2=A0 Fin= ally, technical >>> responses >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0to regulation was discussed to help the regulate= d >>> industries relay >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for= -privacy >>> technologies >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0back to regulators. >>> >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0A group of suggested solutions were devised whic= h will be >>> discussed >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0in various IETF groups moving forward. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> HR-rt mailing list >>> HR-rt@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt >>> >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------= ------- >>> >>> HR-rt mailing list >>> HR-rt@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt >>> --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 --XDGJv6eC2u9tCS05ZdJBuMOUSFiHDXPk4-- --9rAUGAe6geatFISO6yJpjDM5hUQ3i5vUg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEPV22yrhSuYgFWmpv/vHClLToC1UFAlrLoaIACgkQ/vHClLTo C1WqFg/+LWAuZWF/JVmrBhXWAM6oqDQO/31sW7Bk0pCepSkSFiqqyj6+sf0DGm8m auz1Ew/Thw/W6P3+Xtp7ICYA1PdYXAi0Se0n3QGmj4aaABRmD2bsv8o+GtfREDxn UHSqln9tCvDoFo/R8EkjPT8wtc2JofDGwvwzCrVv896k4hVEoMe7myabbq077w3n XiIDG7IuQ+69aMzCfmUxFqb8F87drlKLVn1812QPiEuW0e4qbs7HpmqOJzrF6PyH Fh8gW3YgK9jZZvTG0YldzJJvgAXmSYqLiP+1QQcsKbZpC7ymPrx83b23ko3saNqR J4fe3d3USI2Si9KYZ08XCOK8gtvu6kMJ2qWLkzQzMWqfxH4ScM8qqIw97/hqkO3h UqGxnGweUkCP8cXYNMcGW3xQEn8W2op4Vp2HFQp52lmsLOqaWYChCjIauDD1QgKN ldRDjZ4oHUvFL8TvV6fZkGKiFH9bBLGj1tJc24xzMrqSVmwoq1D/vP6rxunkHWrQ Jw6HGSCrBKGAs7LV3Dnfz8tAroz6qxIp26EGCtDDo4bdRE4oKmiw66xE1hP9Zl6A oQLEy/oSfgy4BCmZ40RltZKrTYWyaW41xfIV8ZZ/v++2HXI/6wP0dGdUki614mKb eHbMbUZeOrXYCO8ITJc1Y5MH4WYdgHgZ/ASDMF+06u7rog21jVU= =HbZt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9rAUGAe6geatFISO6yJpjDM5hUQ3i5vUg-- From nobody Wed Apr 11 02:07:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3E0127077 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 02:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 45dXYiA4asOl for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 02:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0E1D126FB3 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 02:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f6BjJ-0000t1-DT; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 11:07:50 +0200 To: Amelia Andersdotter , Shivan Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , hr-rt@irtf.org, Gordon Lennox References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UVlieZtduPiFBt953HZ0rOMMh5x8Cllrs" X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: bca631f11fdfe15816789e985206fecc Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 09:07:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --UVlieZtduPiFBt953HZ0rOMMh5x8Cllrs Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0D2cdFQpKGdYgFCGRrYc0AnaH9qKHj1mv"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: Amelia Andersdotter , Shivan Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , hr-rt@irtf.org, Gordon Lennox Message-ID: <3215126c-a7b4-4399-31b9-c0f867188d61@nielstenoever.net> Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> In-Reply-To: --0D2cdFQpKGdYgFCGRrYc0AnaH9qKHj1mv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Amelia, We don't need a specific format, we can simply send an email with the review. Cheers, Niels On 04/09/2018 07:23 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote: > How easiest to draft? >=20 > i started something here: > https://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/pull/221/files#diff-989e50ba297c8bab8= fe8fbd3759ac6d2 >=20 >=20 > there's some semantics in this (first), and then i started the > evaluation by removing those considerations that i thought were either > already addressed, or that would best be addressed elsewhere. >=20 > i find it ironic that the telcos don't want to share their APIs /with > their own customers and users(!)/ out of competition concerns. normally= , > i'm the customer of by telco, i don't compete with it. >=20 > but a big problem in the mobile markets could then be that vertically > integrated operators can be both mobile OS or mobile app providers /and= / > Mobile Network Operators at the same time. Oh, if only the telcos had > lobbied for a competetitve market regulation(!) how many of their > current predicaments (and also end-user human rights concerns) could be= > solved. but ok. >=20 > /end whiny transmission >=20 > amelia >=20 >=20 > On 2018-04-09 13:42, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> Hi Amelia, >> >> >> On 04/08/2018 10:19 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote: >>> I guess the task is to apply the Human Rights Guidelines from RFC 828= 0? >>> >> Rather the guidelines doc: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00 >> >> And feedback any potentially useful changes. >> >> >>> It's a workshop. As I read the draft report GSMA is defending their >>> regulatory and commercial interests, and IETF is saying "well, make i= t >>> work while stuff is encrypted". >>> >>> So do we mean to criticize GSMA's self-perceived political/commercial= >>> interests from a HR perspective? >>> >> We seek to understand the potential impact for the ability of end-user= s >> to excercise their human rights, a consequence for that could be to >> criticize the proposed architectural reordering. >> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D >>> >>> The workshop appears not to have touch on the upcoming ePrivacy >>> regulation in the EU at all, in spite of it having a fairly big impac= t >>> on many GSMA members. In particular, GSMA has been lobbying /against/= >>> the ePrivacy regulation, in spite of the IETF helpfully solving many = of >>> their regulatory challenges under the law. >> Interesting - this could fall under the privacy part. >> >>> Telcos are in the place where they want to sell amounts of data. HTTP= S >>> increases the amount of data, making telco consumer potentially >> decreases, right? >> >>> unhappier. Encryption can also slow stuff down, and while some vendor= s >>> say that that's an issue of the past, it's possible that it isn't in = for >>> instance the developing world. Probably Facebook Free Basic connectio= ns >>> have data on this. >>> >>> In some countries, notably the UK, telcos may be under obligation to >>> generally filter connections (ensure they're porn-free). I find that >>> policy disagreeable, but nevertheless it's there. For telcos it's a >>> challenge. >>> >> This has an impact on FoE. I don't think we need to have an opinion on= >> everything from the get-go, but rather show the (potential) implicatio= ns. >> >>> In Sweden, before the EU open internet regulation entered into effect= , >>> several telcos were investigated for traffic prioritisation (which wa= s >>> suspected to run contrary to ePrivacy directive obligations not to >>> monitor traffic). Ironically, the EU open internet law kind of permit= ted >>> commercially motivated traffic discrimination so those inquiries have= >>> since been cancelled. The new ANACOM case in Portugal may change this= >>> interpretation of what the open internet regulation says, but I don't= >>> perceive Portugal to be heading in that direction. >>> >> Cheers, >> >> Niels >> >>> best regards, >>> >>> Amelia >>> >>> On 2018-04-08 12:30, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>>> Amelia know more about radio networks than I do methinks, but happy = to >>>> do so if Amelia is not available. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Niels >>>> >>>> Sent from Blue >>>> On Apr 7, 2018, at 22:43, Shivan >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I could take a look, if someone could work with me. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Obvious HR consequences. Any volunteer? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From:=C2=A0IAB Executive Administrative Manager >>> > >>>> To:=C2=A0IETF Announcement List >>> > >>>> Cc:=C2=A0 >>>> Bcc:=C2=A0 >>>> Date:=C2=A0Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700 >>>> Subject:=C2=A0Call for Comment: = (IAB >>>> Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World >>>> (MaRNEW) Report) >>>> This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on >>>> draft-iab-marnew-report-01. >>>> >>>> The document is being considered for publication as an >>>> Informational RFC >>>> within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/ >>>> >>>> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send= >>>> comments to >>>> architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>>> and iab@iab.org >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> Abstract >>>> >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions = for bandwidth >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted c= ontent, as >>>> current >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0solutions rely on unencrypted content which is = not >>>> indicative of the >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0security needs of today's Internet users.=C2=A0= The workshop >>>> gathered IETF >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0attendees, IAB members and various organisation= s involved >>>> in the >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0telecommunications industry including original = equipment >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0manufacturers and mobile network operators. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The group discussed the current Internet encryp= tion trends and >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployment issues identified within the IETF, a= nd the >>>> privacy needs >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0of users which should be adhered.=C2=A0 Solutio= ns designed >>>> around sharing >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0data from the network to the endpoints and vice= versa were then >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed as well as analysing whether the curr= ent issues >>>> experienced >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the transport layer are also playing a role = here.=C2=A0 Content >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their= experiences >>>> delivery >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0content with mobile network operators.=C2=A0 Fi= nally, technical >>>> responses >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0to regulation was discussed to help the regulat= ed >>>> industries relay >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the issues of impossible to implement or bad-fo= r-privacy >>>> technologies >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0back to regulators. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0A group of suggested solutions were devised whi= ch will be >>>> discussed >>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0in various IETF groups moving forward. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> HR-rt mailing list >>>> HR-rt@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------= -------- >>>> >>>> HR-rt mailing list >>>> HR-rt@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt >>>> >=20 --0D2cdFQpKGdYgFCGRrYc0AnaH9qKHj1mv-- --UVlieZtduPiFBt953HZ0rOMMh5x8Cllrs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlrN0GMACgkQDtg/OkaK yLNjaw//fW4Xh783O4Ta/BD9UvWnmtw0hsWV38CogjwMcZsOR/xcTIRYnJcXkO1h /joaebgAX/cEZ8uHcnOi1MOhnBL4m5IsFXdgRIlmnHO67xj7lScm6/K4dldM1tLM rX5Ka3z2iLPSByCoa2e+idLs6wxG9qY4AFNIu5nRcUWebmjjJ038FS0MU2LEe0GU W/LlRc7ORxduFXGYHfCxPzGxHB3A4S/oKFfQQlAQi7wfT6dt95EfPfNx2nfndIo3 LpEMGoUBtHPQQT+8GMSnckIo8RO0StE8JTegr8iOZpl61V0WuYjluk7pYYuW2kmS C/tYGB938mpsZeoPtTHBiFJpt1Ya8eew9ZY6HVZwUC/QshJxx9yM++dFinONyW0y XjbA/eA5LnS1A1QKs4egBlQlb89s6vCtJokpS6sGyTXLnMpXwqsSiM8eufXw8slQ 6wRe5S7N9Dsj6EYHh4iaX2yOAWd4SRw/QfCSzREFJlx63XlQykAA3AYXnJulwlEu 92R8qjieyyun+Z9e3MXNIqAWNToCI3pKsF80IJghLNr8NpYSWaLAbfiDMd7UYVps 0lkc/Cfiw7iqnimAyax11B13IkU3bDsh/dBILWVf3QqIrVfsyUqrZZGvjRDW/zbm 8HZu7kDvzdeSsYSoHbqWgtdsuzWXMtd5Qhi7ONWwl92nouTPvhs= =iav5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UVlieZtduPiFBt953HZ0rOMMh5x8Cllrs-- From nobody Fri Apr 13 09:28:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74FE61273E2 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:27:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zrCf9y7HxPCE for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EC90127333 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f71YH-0003Im-1z; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 18:27:53 +0200 To: Niels ten Oever , Shivan Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , hr-rt@irtf.org, Gordon Lennox References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> <3215126c-a7b4-4399-31b9-c0f867188d61@nielstenoever.net> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3215126c-a7b4-4399-31b9-c0f867188d61@nielstenoever.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3X0NWYOYGokNTY3U8PE9RiqVwYPMQtDdu" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 4d8586bb0b0558c1312b51b332287d46 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 16:27:58 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --3X0NWYOYGokNTY3U8PE9RiqVwYPMQtDdu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nMDDE7zs4CSJwSyNX7d4YdgYJkijpvuHi"; protected-headers="v1" From: Amelia Andersdotter To: Niels ten Oever , Shivan Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , hr-rt@irtf.org, Gordon Lennox Message-ID: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> <3215126c-a7b4-4399-31b9-c0f867188d61@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: <3215126c-a7b4-4399-31b9-c0f867188d61@nielstenoever.net> --nMDDE7zs4CSJwSyNX7d4YdgYJkijpvuHi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Hi Niels, Ok, so to clarify is the general points brought up in the text along what was expected? Some of the stuff could be footnoted. Putting it in e-mail format is smaller challenge. I thought github could be a collaborative way of ensuring many people could contribute to the text (such as Shivan). A very simple feedback would be to just include the list of HR concerns that /were/ included in the workshop, and which ones /weren't/. best regards, Amelia On 2018-04-11 11:07, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi Amelia, > > We don't need a specific format, we can simply send an email with the > review. > > Cheers, > > Niels > > On 04/09/2018 07:23 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote: >> How easiest to draft? >> >> i started something here: >> https://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/pull/221/files#diff-989e50ba297c8bab= 8fe8fbd3759ac6d2 >> >> >> there's some semantics in this (first), and then i started the >> evaluation by removing those considerations that i thought were either= >> already addressed, or that would best be addressed elsewhere. >> >> i find it ironic that the telcos don't want to share their APIs /with >> their own customers and users(!)/ out of competition concerns. normall= y, >> i'm the customer of by telco, i don't compete with it. >> >> but a big problem in the mobile markets could then be that vertically >> integrated operators can be both mobile OS or mobile app providers /an= d/ >> Mobile Network Operators at the same time. Oh, if only the telcos had >> lobbied for a competetitve market regulation(!) how many of their >> current predicaments (and also end-user human rights concerns) could b= e >> solved. but ok. >> >> /end whiny transmission >> >> amelia >> >> >> On 2018-04-09 13:42, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>> Hi Amelia, >>> >>> >>> On 04/08/2018 10:19 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote: >>>> I guess the task is to apply the Human Rights Guidelines from RFC 82= 80? >>>> >>> Rather the guidelines doc: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00 >>> >>> And feedback any potentially useful changes. >>> >>> >>>> It's a workshop. As I read the draft report GSMA is defending their >>>> regulatory and commercial interests, and IETF is saying "well, make = it >>>> work while stuff is encrypted". >>>> >>>> So do we mean to criticize GSMA's self-perceived political/commercia= l >>>> interests from a HR perspective? >>>> >>> We seek to understand the potential impact for the ability of end-use= rs >>> to excercise their human rights, a consequence for that could be to >>> criticize the proposed architectural reordering. >>> >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> >>>> The workshop appears not to have touch on the upcoming ePrivacy >>>> regulation in the EU at all, in spite of it having a fairly big impa= ct >>>> on many GSMA members. In particular, GSMA has been lobbying /against= / >>>> the ePrivacy regulation, in spite of the IETF helpfully solving many= of >>>> their regulatory challenges under the law. >>> Interesting - this could fall under the privacy part. >>> >>>> Telcos are in the place where they want to sell amounts of data. HTT= PS >>>> increases the amount of data, making telco consumer potentially >>> decreases, right? >>> >>>> unhappier. Encryption can also slow stuff down, and while some vendo= rs >>>> say that that's an issue of the past, it's possible that it isn't in= for >>>> instance the developing world. Probably Facebook Free Basic connecti= ons >>>> have data on this. >>>> >>>> In some countries, notably the UK, telcos may be under obligation to= >>>> generally filter connections (ensure they're porn-free). I find that= >>>> policy disagreeable, but nevertheless it's there. For telcos it's a >>>> challenge. >>>> >>> This has an impact on FoE. I don't think we need to have an opinion o= n >>> everything from the get-go, but rather show the (potential) implicati= ons. >>> >>>> In Sweden, before the EU open internet regulation entered into effec= t, >>>> several telcos were investigated for traffic prioritisation (which w= as >>>> suspected to run contrary to ePrivacy directive obligations not to >>>> monitor traffic). Ironically, the EU open internet law kind of permi= tted >>>> commercially motivated traffic discrimination so those inquiries hav= e >>>> since been cancelled. The new ANACOM case in Portugal may change thi= s >>>> interpretation of what the open internet regulation says, but I don'= t >>>> perceive Portugal to be heading in that direction. >>>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Niels >>> >>>> best regards, >>>> >>>> Amelia >>>> >>>> On 2018-04-08 12:30, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>>>> Amelia know more about radio networks than I do methinks, but happy= to >>>>> do so if Amelia is not available. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> Niels >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Blue >>>>> On Apr 7, 2018, at 22:43, Shivan >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I could take a look, if someone could work with me. >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Obvious HR consequences. Any volunteer? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>> From:=C2=A0IAB Executive Administrative Manager >>>> > >>>>> To:=C2=A0IETF Announcement List >>>> > >>>>> Cc:=C2=A0 >>>>> Bcc:=C2=A0 >>>>> Date:=C2=A0Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700 >>>>> Subject:=C2=A0Call for Comment: (IAB >>>>> Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World >>>>> (MaRNEW) Report) >>>>> This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on= >>>>> draft-iab-marnew-report-01. >>>>> >>>>> The document is being considered for publication as an >>>>> Informational RFC >>>>> within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/ >>>>> >>>>> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please sen= d >>>>> comments to >>>>> architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>>>> and iab@iab.org >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Abstract >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions= for bandwidth >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted = content, as >>>>> current >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0solutions rely on unencrypted content which is= not >>>>> indicative of the >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0security needs of today's Internet users.=C2=A0= The workshop >>>>> gathered IETF >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0attendees, IAB members and various organisatio= ns involved >>>>> in the >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0telecommunications industry including original= equipment >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0manufacturers and mobile network operators. >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The group discussed the current Internet encry= ption trends and >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0deployment issues identified within the IETF, = and the >>>>> privacy needs >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0of users which should be adhered.=C2=A0 Soluti= ons designed >>>>> around sharing >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0data from the network to the endpoints and vic= e versa were then >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed as well as analysing whether the cur= rent issues >>>>> experienced >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the transport layer are also playing a role= here.=C2=A0 Content >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0providers and CDNs gave an honest view of thei= r experiences >>>>> delivery >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0content with mobile network operators.=C2=A0 F= inally, technical >>>>> responses >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0to regulation was discussed to help the regula= ted >>>>> industries relay >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the issues of impossible to implement or bad-f= or-privacy >>>>> technologies >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0back to regulators. >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0A group of suggested solutions were devised wh= ich will be >>>>> discussed >>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0in various IETF groups moving forward. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> HR-rt mailing list >>>>> HR-rt@irtf.org >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------= --------- >>>>> >>>>> HR-rt mailing list >>>>> HR-rt@irtf.org >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt >>>>> --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 --nMDDE7zs4CSJwSyNX7d4YdgYJkijpvuHi-- --3X0NWYOYGokNTY3U8PE9RiqVwYPMQtDdu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 00:04:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.128.90 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 00:03:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20180407153608.7v4zzra6qy3w3gfz@nic.fr> <0adcac93-cf66-414b-85c2-119eea9f42e3@nielstenoever.net> <2aadec40-1583-e15b-6f66-f15e626382e4@article19.org> <3215126c-a7b4-4399-31b9-c0f867188d61@nielstenoever.net> From: Shivan Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 00:03:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Amelia Andersdotter Cc: Niels ten Oever , Stephane Bortzmeyer , hr-rt@irtf.org, Gordon Lennox Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009d29720569f1d5f9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [execd@iab.org: Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report)] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:04:41 -0000 --0000000000009d29720569f1d5f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" We could use GitHub to format our *email* reply - doesn't need to be in the draft format. In the context of this draft, where our criticism could perhaps be valuable is Section 7; I am inclined to agree with their principles, not so much with their proposed solutions. Some suggestions put forth are vague and handwavy, which makes it hard to comment on. I have some notes I'll type up and comment on Amelia's PR. On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote: > Hi Niels, > > Ok, so to clarify is the general points brought up in the text along > what was expected? Some of the stuff could be footnoted. Putting it in > e-mail format is smaller challenge. > > I thought github could be a collaborative way of ensuring many people > could contribute to the text (such as Shivan). > > A very simple feedback would be to just include the list of HR concerns > that /were/ included in the workshop, and which ones /weren't/. > > best regards, > > Amelia > > On 2018-04-11 11:07, Niels ten Oever wrote: > > Hi Amelia, > > > > We don't need a specific format, we can simply send an email with the > > review. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Niels > > > > On 04/09/2018 07:23 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote: > >> How easiest to draft? > >> > >> i started something here: > >> https://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/pull/221/files#diff- > 989e50ba297c8bab8fe8fbd3759ac6d2 > >> > >> > >> there's some semantics in this (first), and then i started the > >> evaluation by removing those considerations that i thought were either > >> already addressed, or that would best be addressed elsewhere. > >> > >> i find it ironic that the telcos don't want to share their APIs /with > >> their own customers and users(!)/ out of competition concerns. normally, > >> i'm the customer of by telco, i don't compete with it. > >> > >> but a big problem in the mobile markets could then be that vertically > >> integrated operators can be both mobile OS or mobile app providers /and/ > >> Mobile Network Operators at the same time. Oh, if only the telcos had > >> lobbied for a competetitve market regulation(!) how many of their > >> current predicaments (and also end-user human rights concerns) could be > >> solved. but ok. > >> > >> /end whiny transmission > >> > >> amelia > >> > >> > >> On 2018-04-09 13:42, Niels ten Oever wrote: > >>> Hi Amelia, > >>> > >>> > >>> On 04/08/2018 10:19 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote: > >>>> I guess the task is to apply the Human Rights Guidelines from RFC > 8280? > >>>> > >>> Rather the guidelines doc: > >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00 > >>> > >>> And feedback any potentially useful changes. > >>> > >>> > >>>> It's a workshop. As I read the draft report GSMA is defending their > >>>> regulatory and commercial interests, and IETF is saying "well, make it > >>>> work while stuff is encrypted". > >>>> > >>>> So do we mean to criticize GSMA's self-perceived political/commercial > >>>> interests from a HR perspective? > >>>> > >>> We seek to understand the potential impact for the ability of end-users > >>> to excercise their human rights, a consequence for that could be to > >>> criticize the proposed architectural reordering. > >>> > >>>> ==== > >>>> > >>>> The workshop appears not to have touch on the upcoming ePrivacy > >>>> regulation in the EU at all, in spite of it having a fairly big impact > >>>> on many GSMA members. In particular, GSMA has been lobbying /against/ > >>>> the ePrivacy regulation, in spite of the IETF helpfully solving many > of > >>>> their regulatory challenges under the law. > >>> Interesting - this could fall under the privacy part. > >>> > >>>> Telcos are in the place where they want to sell amounts of data. HTTPS > >>>> increases the amount of data, making telco consumer potentially > >>> decreases, right? > >>> > >>>> unhappier. Encryption can also slow stuff down, and while some vendors > >>>> say that that's an issue of the past, it's possible that it isn't in > for > >>>> instance the developing world. Probably Facebook Free Basic > connections > >>>> have data on this. > >>>> > >>>> In some countries, notably the UK, telcos may be under obligation to > >>>> generally filter connections (ensure they're porn-free). I find that > >>>> policy disagreeable, but nevertheless it's there. For telcos it's a > >>>> challenge. > >>>> > >>> This has an impact on FoE. I don't think we need to have an opinion on > >>> everything from the get-go, but rather show the (potential) > implications. > >>> > >>>> In Sweden, before the EU open internet regulation entered into effect, > >>>> several telcos were investigated for traffic prioritisation (which was > >>>> suspected to run contrary to ePrivacy directive obligations not to > >>>> monitor traffic). Ironically, the EU open internet law kind of > permitted > >>>> commercially motivated traffic discrimination so those inquiries have > >>>> since been cancelled. The new ANACOM case in Portugal may change this > >>>> interpretation of what the open internet regulation says, but I don't > >>>> perceive Portugal to be heading in that direction. > >>>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> > >>> Niels > >>> > >>>> best regards, > >>>> > >>>> Amelia > >>>> > >>>> On 2018-04-08 12:30, Niels ten Oever wrote: > >>>>> Amelia know more about radio networks than I do methinks, but happy > to > >>>>> do so if Amelia is not available. > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers, > >>>>> > >>>>> Niels > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent from Blue > >>>>> On Apr 7, 2018, at 22:43, Shivan >>>>> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I could take a look, if someone could work with me. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer > >>>>> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Obvious HR consequences. Any volunteer? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>>> From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager >>>>> > > >>>>> To: IETF Announcement List >>>>> > > >>>>> Cc: > >>>>> Bcc: > >>>>> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0700 > >>>>> Subject: Call for Comment: (IAB > >>>>> Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World > >>>>> (MaRNEW) Report) > >>>>> This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on > >>>>> draft-iab-marnew-report-01. > >>>>> > >>>>> The document is being considered for publication as an > >>>>> Informational RFC > >>>>> within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: > >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/ > >>>>> > >>>>> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send > >>>>> comments to > >>>>> architecture-discuss@ietf.org > >>>>> and iab@iab.org > >>>>> . > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Abstract > >>>>> > >>>>> The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions for > bandwidth > >>>>> optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted content, as > >>>>> current > >>>>> solutions rely on unencrypted content which is not > >>>>> indicative of the > >>>>> security needs of today's Internet users. The workshop > >>>>> gathered IETF > >>>>> attendees, IAB members and various organisations involved > >>>>> in the > >>>>> telecommunications industry including original equipment > >>>>> manufacturers and mobile network operators. > >>>>> > >>>>> The group discussed the current Internet encryption > trends and > >>>>> deployment issues identified within the IETF, and the > >>>>> privacy needs > >>>>> of users which should be adhered. Solutions designed > >>>>> around sharing > >>>>> data from the network to the endpoints and vice versa > were then > >>>>> discussed as well as analysing whether the current issues > >>>>> experienced > >>>>> on the transport layer are also playing a role here. > Content > >>>>> providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their > experiences > >>>>> delivery > >>>>> content with mobile network operators. Finally, technical > >>>>> responses > >>>>> to regulation was discussed to help the regulated > >>>>> industries relay > >>>>> the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-privacy > >>>>> technologies > >>>>> back to regulators. > >>>>> > >>>>> A group of suggested solutions were devised which will be > >>>>> discussed > >>>>> in various IETF groups moving forward. > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> HR-rt mailing list > >>>>> HR-rt@irtf.org > >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > >>>>> > >>>>> HR-rt mailing list > >>>>> HR-rt@irtf.org > >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > >>>>> > > -- > Amelia Andersdotter > Technical Consultant, Digital Programme > > ARTICLE19 > www.article19.org > > PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 > > > --0000000000009d29720569f1d5f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We could use GitHub to format our *ema= il* reply - doesn't need to be in the draft format.

In the context of this draft, where our= criticism could perhaps be valuable is Section 7; I am inclined to agree w= ith their principles, not so much with their proposed solutions. Some sugge= stions put forth are vague and handwavy, which makes it hard to comment on.= I have some notes I'll type up and comment on Amelia's PR.=C2=A0

On Fri,= Apr 13, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org= > wrote:
Hi Niels,

Ok, so to clarify is the general points brought up in the text along
what was expected? Some of the stuff could be footnoted. Putting it in
e-mail format is smaller challenge.

I thought github could be a collaborative way of ensuring many people
could contribute to the text (such as Shivan).

A very simple feedback would be to just include the list of HR concerns
that /were/ included in the workshop, and which ones /weren't/.

best regards,

Amelia

On 2018-04-11 11:07, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> Hi Amelia,
>
> We don't need a specific format, we can simply send an email with = the
> review.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Niels
>
> On 04/09/2018 07:23 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote:
>> How easiest to draft?
>>
>> i started something here:
>> https= ://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/pull/221/files#diff-989e50ba297c8bab= 8fe8fbd3759ac6d2
>>
>>
>> there's some semantics in this (first), and then i started the=
>> evaluation by removing those considerations that i thought were ei= ther
>> already addressed, or that would best be addressed elsewhere.
>>
>> i find it ironic that the telcos don't want to share their API= s /with
>> their own customers and users(!)/ out of competition concerns. nor= mally,
>> i'm the customer of by telco, i don't compete with it.
>>
>> but a big problem in the mobile markets could then be that vertica= lly
>> integrated operators can be both mobile OS or mobile app providers= /and/
>> Mobile Network Operators at the same time. Oh, if only the telcos = had
>> lobbied for a competetitve market regulation(!) how many of their<= br> >> current predicaments (and also end-user human rights concerns) cou= ld be
>> solved. but ok.
>>
>> /end whiny transmission
>>
>> amelia
>>
>>
>> On 2018-04-09 13:42, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>>> Hi Amelia,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 04/08/2018 10:19 PM, Amelia Andersdotter wrote:
>>>> I guess the task is to apply the Human Rights Guidelines f= rom RFC 8280?
>>>>
>>> Rather the guidelines doc:
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00
>>>
>>> And feedback any potentially useful changes.
>>>
>>>
>>>> It's a workshop. As I read the draft report GSMA is de= fending their
>>>> regulatory and commercial interests, and IETF is saying &q= uot;well, make it
>>>> work while stuff is encrypted".
>>>>
>>>> So do we mean to criticize GSMA's self-perceived polit= ical/commercial
>>>> interests from a HR perspective?
>>>>
>>> We seek to understand the potential impact for the ability of = end-users
>>> to excercise their human rights, a consequence for that could = be to
>>> criticize the proposed architectural reordering.
>>>
>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>
>>>> The workshop appears not to have touch on the upcoming ePr= ivacy
>>>> regulation in the EU at all, in spite of it having a fairl= y big impact
>>>> on many GSMA members. In particular, GSMA has been lobbyin= g /against/
>>>> the ePrivacy regulation, in spite of the IETF helpfully so= lving many of
>>>> their regulatory challenges under the law.
>>> Interesting - this could fall under the privacy part.
>>>
>>>> Telcos are in the place where they want to sell amounts of= data. HTTPS
>>>> increases the amount of data, making telco consumer potent= ially
>>> decreases, right?
>>>
>>>> unhappier. Encryption can also slow stuff down, and while = some vendors
>>>> say that that's an issue of the past, it's possibl= e that it isn't in for
>>>> instance the developing world. Probably Facebook Free Basi= c connections
>>>> have data on this.
>>>>
>>>> In some countries, notably the UK, telcos may be under obl= igation to
>>>> generally filter connections (ensure they're porn-free= ). I find that
>>>> policy disagreeable, but nevertheless it's there. For = telcos it's a
>>>> challenge.
>>>>
>>> This has an impact on FoE. I don't think we need to have a= n opinion on
>>> everything from the get-go, but rather show the (potential) im= plications.
>>>
>>>> In Sweden, before the EU open internet regulation entered = into effect,
>>>> several telcos were investigated for traffic prioritisatio= n (which was
>>>> suspected to run contrary to ePrivacy directive obligation= s not to
>>>> monitor traffic). Ironically, the EU open internet law kin= d of permitted
>>>> commercially motivated traffic discrimination so those inq= uiries have
>>>> since been cancelled. The new ANACOM case in Portugal may = change this
>>>> interpretation of what the open internet regulation says, = but I don't
>>>> perceive Portugal to be heading in that direction.
>>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Niels
>>>
>>>> best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Amelia
>>>>
>>>> On 2018-04-08 12:30, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>>>>> Amelia know more about radio networks than I do methin= ks, but happy to
>>>>> do so if Amelia is not available.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Niels
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from Blue <http://www.bluemail.me/r?b= =3D12687>
>>>>> On Apr 7, 2018, at 22:43, Shivan <shivankaul.1993@gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:shivankaul.1993@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I could take a look, if someone cou= ld work with me.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 11:36 AM Steph= ane Bortzmeyer
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<bortzmeyer@nic.fr <mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Obvious HR consequenc= es. Any volunteer?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------- Forwarded = message ----------
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From:=C2=A0IAB Execut= ive Administrative Manager <execd@iab.o= rg
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:execd@iab.org>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To:=C2=A0IETF Announc= ement List <ietf-announce@ietf= .org
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:ietf-announce@ietf.org>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cc:=C2=A0
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bcc:=C2=A0
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date:=C2=A0Tue, 03 Ap= r 2018 15:08:39 -0700
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject:=C2=A0Call fo= r Comment: <draft-iab-marnew-report-01> (IAB
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Workshop on Managing = Radio Networks in an Encrypted World
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(MaRNEW) Report)
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This is an announceme= nt of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-iab-marnew-repo= rt-01.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The document is being= considered for publication as an
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Informational RFC
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0within the IAB stream= , and is available for inspection at:
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/<= /a>
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The Call for Comment = will last until 2018-05-01. Please send
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0comments to
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0architecture-discuss@ietf.org
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:architecture-discuss@ietf.org> and iab@iab.org
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:iab@iab.org>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Abstract
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0The MarN= EW workshop aimed to discuss solutions for bandwidth
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0optimisa= tion on mobile networks for encrypted content, as
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0current
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0solution= s rely on unencrypted content which is not
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0indicative of the
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0security= needs of today's Internet users.=C2=A0 The workshop
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gathered IETF
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0attendee= s, IAB members and various organisations involved
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0telecomm= unications industry including original equipment
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0manufact= urers and mobile network operators.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0The grou= p discussed the current Internet encryption trends and
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0deployme= nt issues identified within the IETF, and the
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0privacy needs
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0of users= which should be adhered.=C2=A0 Solutions designed
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0around sharing
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0data fro= m the network to the endpoints and vice versa were then
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0discusse= d as well as analysing whether the current issues
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0experienced
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0on the t= ransport layer are also playing a role here.=C2=A0 Content
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0provider= s and CDNs gave an honest view of their experiences
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0delivery
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0content = with mobile network operators.=C2=A0 Finally, technical
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0responses
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0to regul= ation was discussed to help the regulated
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0industries relay
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0the issu= es of impossible to implement or bad-for-privacy
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0technologies
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0back to = regulators.
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0A group = of suggested solutions were devised which will be
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0in vario= us IETF groups moving forward.
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_____________________= __________________________
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0HR-rt mailing list >>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0HR-rt@irtf.org <mailto:HR-rt@irtf.org>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0------------------------------= ------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0HR-rt mailing list
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0H= R-rt@irtf.org
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.irtf.= org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt
>>>>>

--
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
w= ww.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55



--0000000000009d29720569f1d5f9-- From nobody Mon Apr 16 03:53:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7599E129C53 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 03:53:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g9F9dcSQNVSc for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 03:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4339A1275F4 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 03:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f81lG-0006LH-Ot for hr-rt@irtf.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:53:26 +0200 To: hr-rt@irtf.org From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzSVOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG5pZWxzQGFydGljbGUxOS5vcmc+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcDAgEG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWG0tCwIZAQAKCRAO 2D86RorIs3pMD/9W/Tww1uLG0m0jQkBV3TmBOVzS79fVyoj6lEYCNPJigCqOi9wbZSTB2HL6 h4ftSCl4ErGHcIqngRPcNRt7G8/3OoA1h6qRHcqrpS6H4niW1E+rtxIxul+PSsXXZEgDyUSK XXczf4MmRbR6tKGY4hp4KFedSOEL2C0j8htB2um4C8KFyX4gAYMPJoBfZqlrCmXsyLjdjIvN wd7FLLKA6CNVjwYsDgmKiLQm0Np4fz1AW72rnGGktyUT3u0GsbyDmwM6YU80anh647Pc7cyo ie6c21Ajcph1k7BjHAB/EopQzoQVporHFrCNqhpgVXihhlVDGdOD1JSHCgWO4toflJAT6+kP 3uOXeHv6AoLcXKnY/8QWFjwoj9DYtpw4bSsiP++sF3Dg0xaaivvOzU5+IBoSxNTnqj0M7/Fk jergVF60QdwMGukFZDMSjFnX/gvFPbxy4JebvrfzSY5ZJxLjrlswSeVkWTU1DvtfJxJHKTPQ 9dnodrSN3vynJS+u+wRbzQLdSLBgSgGbUVVHu2dyJhXGPwoh/2Gu4gFilV6+dBhcwHwuxlsd 0pdnTdq4wJodT1rDZRgP3QjR+miyFqjahUDMTJlf4BRq6CiWiHb5UfvQvUsPtMLfQafqYCEy 98b4RHnbckPXa+pXRTYz3z9CBuiJTQWTT0CIBVLhyzqQjYrFTM7BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE3/AF mEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fxj+uX vLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHwyIaw sSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVOBR8x UCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8ITaNdF SAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZtPP9 gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJHE8JM aX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCVaTfJ LFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+uPlD tuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwODyVw k3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRAO 2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvbgB4C tkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK83OG nfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9Oy1wW y6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDvLwOU YKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWvKKmB NBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiGpWv4 tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJBX6j eYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0Ohbn ytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ9DYm tE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <3bb12313-3e3a-0982-51de-7d12b533ed14@nielstenoever.net> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:53:23 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: c74461a82029b6293650421ecb57b64a Archived-At: Subject: [HT-rt] Design Team Process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 10:53:31 -0000 Hi all, I hope all is well. There have been a few people that have shown interest in doing the guidelines on drafts, but we haven't really worked out the process afaik. It would be great if we would have: - a list of drafts to analyze, maybe in a wiki or on a dedicated git - a process for assigning of volunteering for drafts for review? I am in favor of an assigning process, which doesn't mean someone cannot volunteer for smth. - a process for sending a response (4 days review of draft response, on this list, then then the author can submit it with some template text such as: "Hello, I am the reviewer of the Human Rights Review Team, I have applied the guidelines as initially described in RFC8280 and further developed in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines to this document. Please find my review below, if you have any questions feel free to reach out to me at any time." Does this make sense? Who would like to work on setting this up? I am very willing to help. Best, Niels From nobody Mon Apr 16 05:21:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E932E127137 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 05:21:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0czjL_ohUcKC for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 05:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E81C1241FC for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 05:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f837x-0007CH-Ch for hr-rt@irtf.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 14:20:57 +0200 To: hr-rt@irtf.org References: <20180326140004.7fi2qfspxt2e5xtg@nic.fr> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzSVOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG5pZWxzQGFydGljbGUxOS5vcmc+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcDAgEG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWG0tCwIZAQAKCRAO 2D86RorIs3pMD/9W/Tww1uLG0m0jQkBV3TmBOVzS79fVyoj6lEYCNPJigCqOi9wbZSTB2HL6 h4ftSCl4ErGHcIqngRPcNRt7G8/3OoA1h6qRHcqrpS6H4niW1E+rtxIxul+PSsXXZEgDyUSK XXczf4MmRbR6tKGY4hp4KFedSOEL2C0j8htB2um4C8KFyX4gAYMPJoBfZqlrCmXsyLjdjIvN wd7FLLKA6CNVjwYsDgmKiLQm0Np4fz1AW72rnGGktyUT3u0GsbyDmwM6YU80anh647Pc7cyo ie6c21Ajcph1k7BjHAB/EopQzoQVporHFrCNqhpgVXihhlVDGdOD1JSHCgWO4toflJAT6+kP 3uOXeHv6AoLcXKnY/8QWFjwoj9DYtpw4bSsiP++sF3Dg0xaaivvOzU5+IBoSxNTnqj0M7/Fk jergVF60QdwMGukFZDMSjFnX/gvFPbxy4JebvrfzSY5ZJxLjrlswSeVkWTU1DvtfJxJHKTPQ 9dnodrSN3vynJS+u+wRbzQLdSLBgSgGbUVVHu2dyJhXGPwoh/2Gu4gFilV6+dBhcwHwuxlsd 0pdnTdq4wJodT1rDZRgP3QjR+miyFqjahUDMTJlf4BRq6CiWiHb5UfvQvUsPtMLfQafqYCEy 98b4RHnbckPXa+pXRTYz3z9CBuiJTQWTT0CIBVLhyzqQjYrFTM7BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE3/AF mEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fxj+uX vLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHwyIaw sSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVOBR8x UCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8ITaNdF SAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZtPP9 gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJHE8JM aX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCVaTfJ LFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+uPlD tuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwODyVw k3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRAO 2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvbgB4C tkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK83OG nfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9Oy1wW y6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDvLwOU YKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWvKKmB NBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiGpWv4 tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJBX6j eYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0Ohbn ytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ9DYm tE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 14:20:55 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180326140004.7fi2qfspxt2e5xtg@nic.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 7194f67edb0fd0030ea28d62f3968513 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [iesg-secretary@ietf.org: Last Call: (Padding Policy for EDNS(0)) to Experimental RFC] X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:21:04 -0000 Response period closed :'( On 03/26/2018 04:00 PM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > Keywords : privacy, anonymity, so may be interesting. > > > > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > From nobody Mon Apr 16 05:26:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3D4127337 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 05:26:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AaJZG8V9qW1U for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 05:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B384B126E64 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 05:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f83DE-0000IL-1y for hr-rt@irtf.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 14:26:24 +0200 To: hr-rt@irtf.org From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 523f42b60907f92a5b98f162865e3e4b Archived-At: Subject: [HT-rt] introductions and overview X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:26:54 -0000 Hi all, Please allow me to introduce you to Beatrice Martini [0] who has expressed interest to work with us for the coming! Welcome Beatrice! We have a one open drafts to review (Mallory is working on a larger list of drafts we could review, and Stephane is monitoring new Last Calls). The only open one we have now is draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process-13 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process/ Unfortunately the deadline for this is in three days. Would you have a chance to have a look at this? I would be more than happy to help, and maybe Corinne (who has been following this actively) as well. Best, Niels [0] https://beatricemartini.it/ From mail@beatricemartini.it Mon Apr 16 12:09:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF339126CD6 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:09:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_GREY=0.424] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=beatricemartini-it.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6YHs6p2n5PYW for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22b.google.com (mail-it0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EF7C120725 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id h143-v6so12810351ita.4 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:09:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=beatricemartini-it.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=p/B9ytjFtLwxcktIC4uZhcEe3n3QvOLCeWf97RrIc3Q=; b=tTdAMEuoUqIZguKlQYIG85AEP4pHz2xnXBqD3hkAjCmQYCekazDKrfUg0T/U1LzZi9 Q9m3c+NZNj7H44qzQ7+plXgubtgb2wOpK0p3bitDjVEYVX85hHYmy3tlOZanktnusBM9 D9+Oe9TRbruL/pzxsFFOTsBQPXOPbvaPT01Z3AKnDsw7ckeSfWciHS/pcTRNeAkR5smI KkpBMC3XkoT3kFKCT6N2WDSzWT8McwWh3RYJWRWGWzWY2WL01RTpqP8DxmnYYpRrRyY8 4hpBAZs2V8JSJF/MVWDe2wEw1sUG+QujYPwROHsYiQZEIwtnTbq4AbM+1ACbiuXMOTEj uI9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=p/B9ytjFtLwxcktIC4uZhcEe3n3QvOLCeWf97RrIc3Q=; b=bMFek0eOg0LTII+mr6WxLbh8FhBx0LwR7XWIMxX95cUWvK9GwMB112+nVOLDHwMobS WmqLOnX1Whm9TDPzxxQBHDsuxjYt3lBr+h+z2FC1YGXyEsgZhEkwI92RR9cTRUxgNfEn j4SyEGAsMgW508pKra2CWabRGD3lTRkx26diaZGYRxbbMI+t4m8YWZG7EwJBsy2wN7k3 VN8OMyYH+/94Q6Z8pLvTa70RzGL8ZhKgZS/lpYassprChDLCQOqiCD2xZlq/0SN1tvpi ixMJfrS9DRom826PCxwvBkk77/jDcWPnAs6VXpPI8D+dgXD6BOoo70viNdON1jAwLLrb 2YNg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBzz8eOgQykPY05TjBCW4kxtVr0Cpg1VJJspAMDSHYuAfKVPz0y rseHf5hfYLv+Y0SZbUCjiXeiiD64HwTbCiZ8PA9ymdNffPM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49cr4FEjH24tI9VVN5Pgs56qpYHyQKSmxjEXd8CAp24/aAjAX8LPSjYVKNKb+0bY7GYa3jqjJFyeQeMHG52WMw= X-Received: by 2002:a24:5491:: with SMTP id t139-v6mr16136831ita.89.1523905747675; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:09:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.182.132 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 12:09:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Beatrice Martini Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 21:09:06 +0200 Message-ID: To: Niels ten Oever Cc: hr-rt@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c311830569fbf4e6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] introductions and overview X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 03:30:10 -0000 --000000000000c311830569fbf4e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Niels, Thank you for your kind introduction and welcome! All, Nice to e-connect! I very much admire the work of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team, and I am honored to join the list. More about me: I work with Aspiration, a nonprofit connecting organizations, foundations and activists with software solutions, strategy and technology skills that help them better carry out their missions. I lead the organization's Human Rights Technology program, and through our various projects I have the chance to collaborate with a number of stakeholders across the ecosystem, from human rights defenders to technologists, researchers and trainers. I research and write about different ways in which technology, rights and justice intersect, and have recently become a digital HKS Research Fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School. I am based in Berlin, Germany, and I would be happy to say Hello in person if you happen to live here or visit the city :) About the open draft: Great to learn about it! 3-day deadline: ouch, not the most abundant time frame ;) I can make time to have a look at it. Tips from more seasoned reviewers are very much welcome too! Thank you. Looking forward to discussing further. Best, Beatrice On 16 April 2018 at 14:26, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi all, > > Please allow me to introduce you to Beatrice Martini [0] who has > expressed interest to work with us for the coming! Welcome Beatrice! > > We have a one open drafts to review (Mallory is working on a larger list > of drafts we could review, and Stephane is monitoring new Last Calls). > > The only open one we have now is > draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process-13 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc- > venue-selection-process/ > > Unfortunately the deadline for this is in three days. Would you have a > chance to have a look at this? I would be more than happy to help, and > maybe Corinne (who has been following this actively) as well. > > Best, > > Niels > > > [0] https://beatricemartini.it/ > > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > -- Beatrice Martini Twitter / Blog / Newsletter --000000000000c311830569fbf4e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Niels,

Thank you for your= kind introduction and welcome!

All, Nice to e-con= nect!

I very much admire the work of the Human Rig= hts Protocol Considerations Review Team, and I am honored to join the list.=

More about me:

I work wi= th Aspiration, a nonprofit connecting organizations, foundations and activi= sts with software solutions, strategy and technology skills that help them = better carry out their missions. I lead the organization's Human Rights= Technology program, and through our various projects I have the chance to = collaborate with a number of stakeholders across the ecosystem, from human = rights defenders to technologists, researchers and trainers.

=
I research and write=C2=A0about differ= ent ways in which technology, rights and justice intersect, and have= recently become a digital HKS Research Fellow at the Harvard Kennedy Schoo= l.

I am based in Berlin, Germany, and I would be h= appy to say Hello in person if you happen to live here or visit the city :)=

About the open draft:

Gr= eat to learn about it! 3-day deadline: ouch, not the most abundant time fra= me ;)
I can make time to have a look at it. Tips from more season= ed reviewers are very much welcome too!

Thank you.= Looking forward to discussing further.

Best,
Beatrice


On 16 April 2018 at 14:26, Niels ten Oever <m= ail@nielstenoever.net> wrote:
Hi all,

Please allow me to introduce you to Beatrice Martini [0] who has
expressed interest to work with us for the coming! Welcome Beatrice!

We have a one open drafts to review (Mallory is working on a larger list of drafts we could review, and Stephane is monitoring new Last Calls).

The only open one we have now is
draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process-13
https://datatracke= r.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process/<= /a>

Unfortunately the deadline for this is in three days. Would you have a
chance to have a look at this? I would be more than happy to help, and
maybe Corinne (who has been following this actively) as well.

Best,

Niels


[0] https://beatricemartini.it/

_______________________________________________
HR-rt mailing list
HR-rt@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt



--
Beatrice Martini
--000000000000c311830569fbf4e6-- From nobody Tue Apr 17 01:17:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 523631250B8 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:17:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QT3HVJz9X-qD for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailer1.greenhost.nl (mailer1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D035127136 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by mailer1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f8Lkf-0000Sz-9K for hr-rt@irtf.org; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:14:16 +0200 Received: from s55955989.adsl.online.nl ([85.149.89.137] helo=[10.111.222.249]) by smtp.greenhost.nl with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f8Lkf-0005ki-3j for hr-rt@irtf.org; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:14:09 +0000 From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzSVOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG5pZWxzQGFydGljbGUxOS5vcmc+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcDAgEG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWG0tCwIZAQAKCRAO 2D86RorIs3pMD/9W/Tww1uLG0m0jQkBV3TmBOVzS79fVyoj6lEYCNPJigCqOi9wbZSTB2HL6 h4ftSCl4ErGHcIqngRPcNRt7G8/3OoA1h6qRHcqrpS6H4niW1E+rtxIxul+PSsXXZEgDyUSK XXczf4MmRbR6tKGY4hp4KFedSOEL2C0j8htB2um4C8KFyX4gAYMPJoBfZqlrCmXsyLjdjIvN wd7FLLKA6CNVjwYsDgmKiLQm0Np4fz1AW72rnGGktyUT3u0GsbyDmwM6YU80anh647Pc7cyo ie6c21Ajcph1k7BjHAB/EopQzoQVporHFrCNqhpgVXihhlVDGdOD1JSHCgWO4toflJAT6+kP 3uOXeHv6AoLcXKnY/8QWFjwoj9DYtpw4bSsiP++sF3Dg0xaaivvOzU5+IBoSxNTnqj0M7/Fk jergVF60QdwMGukFZDMSjFnX/gvFPbxy4JebvrfzSY5ZJxLjrlswSeVkWTU1DvtfJxJHKTPQ 9dnodrSN3vynJS+u+wRbzQLdSLBgSgGbUVVHu2dyJhXGPwoh/2Gu4gFilV6+dBhcwHwuxlsd 0pdnTdq4wJodT1rDZRgP3QjR+miyFqjahUDMTJlf4BRq6CiWiHb5UfvQvUsPtMLfQafqYCEy 98b4RHnbckPXa+pXRTYz3z9CBuiJTQWTT0CIBVLhyzqQjYrFTM7BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE3/AF mEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fxj+uX vLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHwyIaw sSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVOBR8x UCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8ITaNdF SAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZtPP9 gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJHE8JM aX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCVaTfJ LFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+uPlD tuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwODyVw k3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRAO 2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvbgB4C tkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK83OG nfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9Oy1wW y6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDvLwOU YKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWvKKmB NBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiGpWv4 tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJBX6j eYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0Ohbn ytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ9DYm tE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== To: hr-rt@irtf.org Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:13:58 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at mailer1.samage.net Archived-At: Subject: [HT-rt] another one for the list X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:17:13 -0000 let's also add this one to the list: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode/ has just a new version out. We wrote about this earlier: https://www.article19.org/resources/corporate-actors-must-not-facilitate-human-rights-violations-through-new-chinese-rules/ Cheers, Niels From nobody Wed Apr 18 05:31:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A65129C53 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 05:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=beatricemartini-it.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oyHI4oj1cTqw for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 05:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x230.google.com (mail-io0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAB251277BB for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 05:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x230.google.com with SMTP id l2-v6so712230iog.9 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 05:31:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=beatricemartini-it.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=M6BZ0XqL7LivRVk5RAly5+FesTbz/27fNwCXDm2am6A=; b=FoNNzDbZ8xYbtGuMkdlrJdSE4MmRS+Xz+mpAaCIYVPdoBruDO4F7ADXaZvOqryGW8M J3VvXeUmMQb2EQNSgeldeBtzbR69hQIn1Wthar8HJxS9zq/VN54uA5TKjiKYfdlIvMGx +aqP+yfXadmvjX9vSgL33HcribzSBgQJL6KsunQ92cnsOjzr9OD7C9+9sQyV7hoXNAWk vck17f017XFyAzGzFjnCZH7ECam3lUgwWydYHvoNC35Dmw7BPaHJ1L99021wBuuOI5H6 m9nBKexTP0ziqEYgvf1dLvEvl66b2RAQ3c5NZKXDWEkYs8ExDvssy8Ur5oCZeaFie3kD IwYQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=M6BZ0XqL7LivRVk5RAly5+FesTbz/27fNwCXDm2am6A=; b=KncLY6D4Rz7u1PWAfA5UkYtNz79iL0FxzmzE8G1qetd/dvyFlSGCh1TDTYGHghYovU HU/LBOlth6fPM18pZUmqfZ8bLrKREbHd7LzY47IIGMil7exFpVQbgVnIIyTUE07mBEL7 U9irGb/+MkUTzJMtdnkgqpB/vgzT/W/NZEbSrC4aW3iEdcT7bPCdZBVdqDlDqnhnzr9Y k5ykuVYH5VvAXT9KykCrstRlRdzuGUt2sQLldFq5ENuuMiT3zsQ/1fe+BZ5dPVqmYxjf Dzda5F2UipUkcRG0HXOsPPIOIZARarMFX3jEkBfH8YIkIIYw6qNgltAs1RtgUDiMwXmq Jpvg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCHiTbC5M9sOCsVS0SojQBG35FRZTgrDUE4pcTrSWQDzzjnCr2e 4qqlDAUkTO9JVAPMgksw004q+WI7VYRum9xWDKyS7JnaBCY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49qMoXV4BdkE0Ao81qazvhuZDq/wM0qhpjHPXvtIJIIUCmwLx2/UwV2KlLwmsW3HHAkg/katKqzOWY+/qPP6tE= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8544:: with SMTP id h65-v6mr1610453iod.271.1524054702791; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 05:31:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a02:840e:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 05:31:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Beatrice Martini Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 14:31:42 +0200 Message-ID: To: hr-rt@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002db049056a1ea3cc" Archived-At: Subject: [HT-rt] Welcoming your feedback: Open draft review "IETF Plenary Meeting Venue Selection Process". Deadline: April 19 X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 12:31:47 -0000 --0000000000002db049056a1ea3cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, Niels and I had a chat about the open draft "IETF Plenary Meeting Venue Selection Process". Please find below our notes about it. The review deadline is tomorrow (Thursday, April 19). Feel more than welcome to share your thoughts and feedback! Open draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process Notes: Having organized several international events for free and open technology communities, also of the size of most IETF meetings (1000-1500 participants, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/stats/meeting/overview), we very much appreciate the attention to details that the draft shows in regards to venue selection objectives, criteria and requirements. We identified room for potential improvements in a few sections of the document, and are sharing them with the aim to contribute to strengthen the accessibility and inclusiveness of future IETF meetings. 1) Section: 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values Text from draft: "Inclusiveness: We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of anyone who wants to be involved." We suggest an edit along these lines: "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of anyone who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the diversity of perspectives represented in the working sessions" The edit aims to: * Clarify that the meeting wants to welcome both folks who already know they want to participate, and folks who might have great contributions to share but might not yet know about the IETF or how to join the community. In this way the document makes explicit the intention to proactively make participation accessible and welcoming to everyone, newcomers included. * State that modeling for the participation of a greater diversity of perspectives is critical to achieve stronger and increasingly inclusive technical outcomes. 2) We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in regards to the affordability of participation. Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, and that budget solutions should be available. That's great. >From Section 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values: "Economics: Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded. In order to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food and lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airports to the Venue. Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to accommodation." But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable. >From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria: "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage is affordable, within the norms of business travel." "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self-funded budget travel". Therefore, we think that the draft is not fully consistent/clear in regards to how much affordability of participation is prioritized. 3) We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2. Basic Venue Criteria. 3.1) "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom with stalls on each floor." Gender neutral restrooms are essential to contribute to the inclusiveness of the an event venue. They allow: * Transgender, genderqueer, non-binary attendees to feel safe from being harassed or attacked for their gender non-conformity; * Carers of children who are not of the same gender to help their kids to use the restroom when they are not old enough to go alone. Note: Restrooms with installed urinals are not suitable to be used as gender neutral restrooms, unless the urinals are made unavailable. Therefore the most suitable restroom facilities to be used as gender neutral restrooms are those with stalls. 3.2) "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding room and one family restroom." See information and suggestions about feeding room settings and policy at: ht tp://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Breastfeeding_and_infant_care_support Notes on terminology: "Infant and children carers" is a recommended terminology in place of the often used (and often incorrect) "mothers". Not all carers are mothers. "Infant feeding" is a recommended terminology in place of the often used (and often incorrect) "breastfeeding". Infants can be fed also with bottle, formula, etc. 3.3) "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those with respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during daytime and nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the scheduled activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." This means that it would not be ok to have a working session/event taking place in a smoky room, since this would not allow all folks who want to participate to actually be in that room. 3.4) We believe that supporting parents with small children attending events is a great step forward towards inclusivity. We would like the document to address this aspect in regards to venue requirements. In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide information about the following: * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their kid(s) with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age not allowed to be in session rooms? * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like a play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professional? See further information about childcare at events at: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Childcare If the organization determines that children should not be allowed to access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be provided, it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge that the organization is aware of the limitation that this would constitute and that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. 4) We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other Considerations. Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says: "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made to allow access by people with disabilities." This is great! At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation might create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session could be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another participant with a severe allergy to dogs. It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideration on this type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it could say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the organizing team will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis. This statement should also include information about who / what team can be contacted to ask for information in case of need. 5) Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons" Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations" Thank you. Looking forward to discussing further. Best, Beatrice --0000000000002db049056a1ea3cc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

Niels and I had a chat about the open d= raft "IETF Plenary Meeting Venue Selection Process".

Pleas= e find below our notes about it. The review deadline is tomorrow (Thursday,= April 19). Feel more than welcome to share your thoughts and feedback!
=
Open draft:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process

Notes:

H= aving organized several international events for free and open technology c= ommunities, also of the size of most IETF meetings (1000-1500 participants,= see https:= //datatracker.ietf.org/stats/meeting/overview), we very much appreciate= the attention to details that the draft shows in regards to venue selectio= n objectives, criteria and requirements.

We identified room for pote= ntial improvements in a few sections of the document, and are sharing them = with the aim to contribute to strengthen the accessibility and inclusivenes= s of future IETF meetings.

1)
Section: 2. Venue Selection Object= ives/ 2.1. Core Values

Text from draft:
"Inclusiveness: We w= ould like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of anyone who wa= nts to be involved."

We suggest an edit along these lines:
&= quot;We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of anyo= ne who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the diversity of pers= pectives represented in the working sessions"

The edit aims to:=

* Clarify that the meeting wants to welcome both folks who already = know they want to participate, and folks who might have great contributions= to share but might not yet know about the IETF or how to join the communit= y. In this way the document makes explicit the intention to proactively mak= e participation accessible and welcoming to everyone, newcomers included.
* State that modeling for the participation of a greater diversity of= perspectives is critical to achieve stronger and increasingly inclusive te= chnical outcomes.

2)
We find that the current draft is not totall= y consistent in regards to the affordability of participation.

Initi= ally, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, and that budg= et solutions should be available. That's great.

From Section 2.= =C2=A0 Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values:
"Economics:Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are underwritten = by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded.=C2=A0 In order to reduce pa= rticipation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek locations that provi= de convenient budget alternatives for food and lodging, and which minimize = travel segments from major airports to the Venue.=C2=A0 Within reason, budg= et should not be a barrier to accommodation."

But then, in Sect= ion 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable.

From Section 3.2.2 Basic V= enue Criteria:
"The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting foo= d and beverage is affordable, within the norms of business travel."
"Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self= -funded budget travel".

Therefore, we think that the draft is n= ot fully consistent/clear in regards to how much affordability of participa= tion is prioritized.

3)
We invite to consider the addition of a f= ew items to Section 3.2.2. Basic Venue Criteria.

3.1)
"All M= eeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom with stalls = on each floor."

Gender neutral restrooms are essential to contr= ibute to the inclusiveness of the an event venue.

They allow:
* Transgender, genderqueer, non-binary attendees to feel safe from being h= arassed or attacked for their gender non-conformity;

* Carers of chi= ldren who are not of the same gender to help their kids to use the restroom= when they are not old enough to go alone.

Note: Restrooms with inst= alled urinals are not suitable to be used as gender neutral restrooms, unle= ss the urinals are made unavailable. Therefore the most suitable restroom f= acilities to be used as gender neutral restrooms are those with stalls.
=
3.2)
"The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infa= nt feeding room and one family restroom."

See information and s= uggestions about feeding room settings and policy at: ht tp://gee= kfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Breastfeeding_and_infant_care_support

N= otes on terminology:

"Infant and children carers" is a rec= ommended terminology in place of the often used (and often incorrect) "= ;mothers". Not all carers are mothers.

"Infant feeding&quo= t; is a recommended terminology in place of the often used (and often incor= rect) "breastfeeding". Infants can be fed also with bottle, formu= la, etc.

3.3)
"The event should be accessible to non-smokers= and those with respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during= daytime and nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the = scheduled activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke."
<= br>This means that it would not be ok to have a working session/event takin= g place in a smoky room, since this would not allow all folks who want to p= articipate to actually be in that room.

3.4)
We believe that supp= orting parents with small children attending events is a great step forward= towards inclusivity.

We would like the document to address this asp= ect in regards to venue requirements.

In particular, it would be hel= pful for the document to provide information about the following:

* = Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their kid(s) with the= m at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age not allowed to be in se= ssion rooms?

* Would the venue provide a childcare space and service= , like a play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professional? S= ee further information about childcare at events at: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Child= care

If the organization determines that children sho= uld not be allowed to access meetings, and/or no childcare space and servic= e can be provided, it would anyway be important for the document to acknowl= edge that the organization is aware of the limitation that this would const= itute and that this might hinder the participation of some attendees.

4)
We invite to consider the addition of one item to Sectio= n 3.3 Other Considerations.

Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says:=
"The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be ma= de to allow access by people with disabilities."

This is great!=
At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation mig= ht create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session could b= e attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another participant wit= h a severe allergy to dogs.

It would be ideal if the document could = mention a consideration on this type of conflicting requirements that might= occur. For example, it could say that, in the full respect of everyone'= ;s needs, the organizing team will aim to find the most suitable solution o= n a case by case basis.

This statement should also include informat= ion about who / what team can be contacted to ask for information in case o= f need.

5)
Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Considerai= tons"

Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations"

=
Thank you. Looking forward to discussing further.

Be= st,
Beatrice
--0000000000002db049056a1ea3cc-- From nobody Thu Apr 19 08:22:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD64D12DA13; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:22:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U3e278UnvM6W; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E670A1205F0; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f9BOB-0007GN-Jl; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:22:24 +0200 To: hr-rt@irtf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lists@digitaldissidents.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzSVOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG5pZWxzQGFydGljbGUxOS5vcmc+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcDAgEG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWG0tCwIZAQAKCRAO 2D86RorIs3pMD/9W/Tww1uLG0m0jQkBV3TmBOVzS79fVyoj6lEYCNPJigCqOi9wbZSTB2HL6 h4ftSCl4ErGHcIqngRPcNRt7G8/3OoA1h6qRHcqrpS6H4niW1E+rtxIxul+PSsXXZEgDyUSK XXczf4MmRbR6tKGY4hp4KFedSOEL2C0j8htB2um4C8KFyX4gAYMPJoBfZqlrCmXsyLjdjIvN wd7FLLKA6CNVjwYsDgmKiLQm0Np4fz1AW72rnGGktyUT3u0GsbyDmwM6YU80anh647Pc7cyo ie6c21Ajcph1k7BjHAB/EopQzoQVporHFrCNqhpgVXihhlVDGdOD1JSHCgWO4toflJAT6+kP 3uOXeHv6AoLcXKnY/8QWFjwoj9DYtpw4bSsiP++sF3Dg0xaaivvOzU5+IBoSxNTnqj0M7/Fk jergVF60QdwMGukFZDMSjFnX/gvFPbxy4JebvrfzSY5ZJxLjrlswSeVkWTU1DvtfJxJHKTPQ 9dnodrSN3vynJS+u+wRbzQLdSLBgSgGbUVVHu2dyJhXGPwoh/2Gu4gFilV6+dBhcwHwuxlsd 0pdnTdq4wJodT1rDZRgP3QjR+miyFqjahUDMTJlf4BRq6CiWiHb5UfvQvUsPtMLfQafqYCEy 98b4RHnbckPXa+pXRTYz3z9CBuiJTQWTT0CIBVLhyzqQjYrFTM7BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE3/AF mEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fxj+uX vLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHwyIaw sSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVOBR8x UCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8ITaNdF SAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZtPP9 gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJHE8JM aX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCVaTfJ LFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+uPlD tuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwODyVw k3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRAO 2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvbgB4C tkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK83OG nfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9Oy1wW y6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDvLwOU YKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWvKKmB NBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiGpWv4 tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJBX6j eYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0Ohbn ytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ9DYm tE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:22:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a2a1964a1561ab7a63907465a561ffe8 Archived-At: Subject: [HT-rt] HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:22:31 -0000 This is a review done within the framework of the Human Rights Review Team, is was done by Beatrice Martini and Niels ten Oever. The Human Rights Review Team aims to implement and improve the guidelines for human rights considerations provided in RFC8280, and seek to mitigate potentially adverse human rights impacts that IETF and IRTF documents might have. Document: draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process Review: Having organized several international events for free and open technology communities, also of the size of most IETF meetings (1000-1500 participants, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/stats/meeting/overview), we very much appreciate the attention to details that the draft shows in regards to venue selection objectives, criteria and requirements. Review Date: 2018-04-18 IETF LC End Date: 2018-04-19 We identified room for potential improvements in a few sections of the document, and are sharing them with the aim to contribute to strengthen the accessibility and inclusiveness of future IETF meetings. 1) Section: 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values Text from draft: "Inclusiveness: We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of anyone who wants to be involved." We suggest an edit along these lines: "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of anyone who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the diversity of perspectives represented in the working sessions" The edit aims to: * Clarify that the meeting wants to welcome both folks who already know they want to participate, and folks who might have great contributions to share but might not yet know about the IETF or how to join the community. In this way the document makes explicit the intention to proactively make participation accessible and welcoming to everyone, newcomers included. * State that modeling for the participation of a greater diversity of perspectives is critical to achieve stronger and increasingly inclusive technical outcomes. 2) We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in regards to the affordability of participation. Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, and that budget solutions should be available. That's great. >From Section 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values: "Economics: Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded. In order to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food and lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airports to the Venue. Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to accommodation." But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable. >From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria: "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage is affordable, within the norms of business travel." "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self-funded budget travel". Therefore, we think that the draft is not fully consistent/clear in regards to how much affordability of participation is prioritized. 3) We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2. Basic Venue Criteria. 3.1) "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom with stalls on each floor." Gender neutral restrooms are essential to contribute to the inclusiveness of the an event venue. They allow: * Transgender, genderqueer, non-binary attendees to feel safe from being harassed or attacked for their gender non-conformity; * Carers of children who are not of the same gender to help their kids to use the restroom when they are not old enough to go alone. Note: Restrooms with installed urinals are not suitable to be used as gender neutral restrooms, unless the urinals are made unavailable. Therefore the most suitable restroom facilities to be used as gender neutral restrooms are those with stalls. 3.2) "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding room and one family restroom." See information and suggestions about feeding room settings and policy at: ht tp://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Breastfeeding_and_infant_care_support Notes on terminology: "Infant and children carers" is a recommended terminology in place of the often used (and often incorrect) "mothers". Not all carers are mothers. "Infant feeding" is a recommended terminology in place of the often used (and often incorrect) "breastfeeding". Infants can be fed also with bottle, formula, etc. 3.3) "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those with respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during daytime and nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the scheduled activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." This means that it would not be ok to have a working session/event taking place in a smoky room, since this would not allow all folks who want to participate to actually be in that room. 3.4) We believe that supporting parents with small children attending events is a great step forward towards inclusivity. We would like the document to address this aspect in regards to venue requirements. In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide information about the following: * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their kid(s) with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age not allowed to be in session rooms? * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like a play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professional? See further information about childcare at events at: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Childcare If the organization determines that children should not be allowed to access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be provided, it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge that the organization is aware of the limitation that this would constitute and that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. 4) We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other Considerations. Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says: "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made to allow access by people with disabilities." This is great! At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation might create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session could be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another participant with a severe allergy to dogs. It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideration on this type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it could say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the organizing team will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis. This statement should also include information about who / what team can be contacted to ask for information in case of need. 5) Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons" Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations" From nobody Thu Apr 19 09:59:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79A512E048 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:59:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WWvCuc75qA9J for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1B4012D880 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5EE820090; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 13:10:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 396AA2630; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 12:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3764A262F; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 12:59:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Niels ten Oever cc: hr-rt@irtf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:59:48 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Niels ten Oever wrote: > This is a review done within the framework of the Human Rights Review > Team, is was done by Beatrice Martini and Niels ten Oever. The Human Thank you. > 1) > Section: 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values > Text from draft: > "Inclusiveness: We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote > participation of anyone who wants to be involved." > We suggest an edit along these lines: > "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of > anyone who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the diversi= ty > of perspectives represented in the working sessions" > The edit aims to: > * Clarify that the meeting wants to welcome both folks who already kn= ow > they want to participate, and folks who might have great contributions > to share but might not yet know about the IETF or how to join the > community. In this way the document makes explicit the intention to > proactively make participation accessible and welcoming to everyone, > newcomers included. I suggest you reword your suggestion to: "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of anyone who wants to be involved. Widespread participation contributes to the diversity of perspectives represented in the working = sessions" the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the sentence can otherwi= se be parsed to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who contribute = to increased diversity. > 2) > We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in regards to > the affordability of participation. This is my intepretation. > Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, and > that budget solutions should be available. That's great. > From Section 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values: > "Economics: > Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are > underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded. In order > to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek > locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food and > lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airports to the > Venue. Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to accommodatio= n." > But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable. > From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria: > "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage is > affordable, within the norms of business travel." > "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self-funded budget > travel". The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "business travel". There are locations (resorts in really exotic locations) where the nightly price of room is like $500/night. The intention is to rule those out. As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often afford to stay at the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a few blocks. So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled. > 3) > We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2. > Basic Venue Criteria. > 3.1) > "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom > with stalls on each floor." > Gender neutral restrooms are essential to contribute to the > inclusiveness of the an event venue. I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's gonna be two hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be a reasonable criteria. On the topic of being family friendly, the major thing we can do to support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the nomcom eligibility criteria. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEVAwUBWtjK7ICLcPvd0N1lAQKTHQgAkX8jckxg5cNFgI6hcChyks5d+gjRonIn JtZlWV59ZQk9mu0PUDefn5ekkf2NIyCU+5Jn5EqRPNEtVHmyvgZXaTSiUdAWEa00 tl6CUsTIfqHVcQDlDvFW96HDXdinX6+3KvB1232t5zKtNSzk+xfZIr+VJwwZsFsh 9ddjaevHfgXd90vkCd8cVxKWPjCuDYYmsSqAFdfzC+dRpY3dctAXzsaavTLDU/ty xnTEcNwl8k+YaRb/ya2dGOCtOLq+CGWWcvRlly+Crn1WHWFYT3n8YbNJ/bzBU8Xn DQHzvKLGPk7WzA7i5pZBXj0fBUE+FlzkQx4+UsohJ/TZ76Dd14LhLw== =p586 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Apr 19 14:08:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A6D12420B for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:08:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=qti.qualcomm.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lnq8xJc1moo1 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alexa-out-sd-01.qualcomm.com (alexa-out-sd-01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 921151201FA for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:08:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qti.qualcomm.com; i=@qti.qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1524172127; x=1555708127; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:mime-version; bh=Tspb9ou16Whtr3+BxdetVrKpQ5uDbFXaHdxpqnLNa5I=; b=xAnM2kUG0YlXVCdFaibuvkgqi+u+dMBZ/uxKcR/lE58Am7vj8Nh8YrFM tWfJfc0qKjdfSVVSrzoOO0tGxdlUyAMMwDxl60ZsDJha0vW7M8r9hsHM4 hGdnhPA/i+c6jqWO9/31m9FSZ+O0I1fEx59f/GrxXx3sTnLT+Gg/RFI4J k=; Received: from unknown (HELO ironmsg02-sd.qualcomm.com) ([10.53.140.142]) by alexa-out-sd-01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 19 Apr 2018 14:08:46 -0700 Received: from nasanexm01f.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.32]) by ironmsg02-sd.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 19 Apr 2018 14:08:46 -0700 Received: from [10.38.242.146] (10.80.80.8) by NASANEXM01F.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1365.1; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:08:45 -0700 From: Pete Resnick To: Niels ten Oever CC: , , Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:08:43 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.11.1r5471) Message-ID: <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> In-Reply-To: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Originating-IP: [10.80.80.8] X-ClientProxiedBy: NASANEXM01G.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.33) To NASANEXM01F.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 21:08:50 -0000 Hi Niels, Thanks for the extensive review. Much appreciated. Many of Michael's comments are spot on; I'll add my replies below (and trim a bit of the explanatory text to save space): On 19 Apr 2018, at 11:59, Michael Richardson wrote: > Niels ten Oever wrote: >> This is a review done within the framework of the Human Rights Review >> Team, is was done by Beatrice Martini and Niels ten Oever. The Human > > Thank you. > >> 1) >> Section: 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values > >> Text from draft: >> "Inclusiveness: We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote >> participation of anyone who wants to be involved." > >> We suggest an edit along these lines: >> "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of >> anyone who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the >> diversity >> of perspectives represented in the working sessions" > > I suggest you reword your suggestion to: > "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of > anyone who wants to be involved. Widespread participation > contributes to the diversity of perspectives represented in the > working sessions" > > the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the sentence can > otherwise be parsed > to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who > contribute to > increased diversity. I have to agree with Michael's suggestion. In addition to the possible ambiguity, there was pretty explicit consensus in the WG that the objective was to facilitate people who participants that want to participate, and explicitly not to use venue selection for purposes of outreach. Michael's reformulation makes that a bit clearer. Does that satisfy your concern? >> 2) >> We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in regards >> to >> the affordability of participation. > > This is my intepretation. > >> Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, >> and >> that budget solutions should be available. That's great. > >> From Section 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values: >> "Economics: >> Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are >> underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded. In >> order >> to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek >> locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food and >> lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airports to >> the >> Venue. Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to >> accommodation." > >> But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable. > >> From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria: >> "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage is >> affordable, within the norms of business travel." > >> "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self-funded budget >> travel". > > The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so > expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "business > travel". There are locations (resorts in really exotic locations) > where > the nightly price of room is like $500/night. The intention is to > rule > those out. > As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often afford to > stay at > the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a few > blocks. So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled. Michael's explanation is correct, but I take your point that "guest rooms" in the second bullet of 3.2.2 sounds like the combination of rooms in the IETF Hotels, Overflow Hotels, and other nearby local accommodations. Perhaps we can clarify. Let's see if Eliot has any thoughts. >> 3) >> We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2. >> Basic Venue Criteria. > >> 3.1) >> "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom >> with stalls on each floor." > > I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's gonna be two > hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be a > reasonable criteria. Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter into a contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make this mandatory at this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient number of Facilities meet this criterion already. Perhaps something along these lines could be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we'd want input that there are such Facilities available, lest the criteria simply be ignored. > On the topic of being family friendly, the major thing we can do to > support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the nomcom > eligibility criteria. Agreed Michael. :-) On to the rest of your comments, Niels: >> 3.2) >> "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding >> room and one family restroom." I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Venue", correct? Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to hear from IASA that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable number of Facilities. >> 3.3) >> "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those with >> respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during daytime >> and >> nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the >> scheduled >> activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." I have no particular concerns about adding this in section 3.3, barring objections. >> 3.4) There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go in 3.3? >> We believe that supporting parents with small children attending >> events >> is a great step forward towards inclusivity. >> >> We would like the document to address this aspect in regards to venue >> requirements. >> >> In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide >> information about the following: >> >> * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their kid(s) >> with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age not >> allowed >> to be in session rooms? >> >> * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like a >> play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professional? See >> further information about childcare at events at: >> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Childcare >> >> If the organization determines that children should not be allowed to >> access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be >> provided, >> it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge that the >> organization is aware of the limitation that this would constitute >> and >> that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. Whether children can be present in meeting rooms sounds like a policy issue beyond the question of venue selection, so I believe is out of scope for the document. As for whether having childcare services available at the Facility or Hotels should go in 3.3, I have no particular concerns about adding it, again, barring objections. >> 4) >> We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other >> Considerations. >> >> Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says: >> "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made >> to >> allow access by people with disabilities." >> >> This is great! >> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation might >> create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session >> could >> be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another >> participant >> with a severe allergy to dogs. >> >> It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideration on >> this >> type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it >> could >> say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the organizing >> team >> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis. >> >> This statement should also include information about who / what team >> can >> be contacted to ask for information in case of need. I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2 makes sense. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up with something. >> 5) >> Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons" >> >> Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations" Of course. Thanks again for the great comments. pr From nobody Fri Apr 20 04:08:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E07E21270AE; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 04:08:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rUjnjbzXxmWD; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 04:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D9421250B8; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 04:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f9Tu8-0002PY-UM; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 13:08:37 +0200 To: Pete Resnick Cc: hr-rt@irtf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lists@digitaldissidents.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzSVOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG5pZWxzQGFydGljbGUxOS5vcmc+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcDAgEG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWG0tCwIZAQAKCRAO 2D86RorIs3pMD/9W/Tww1uLG0m0jQkBV3TmBOVzS79fVyoj6lEYCNPJigCqOi9wbZSTB2HL6 h4ftSCl4ErGHcIqngRPcNRt7G8/3OoA1h6qRHcqrpS6H4niW1E+rtxIxul+PSsXXZEgDyUSK XXczf4MmRbR6tKGY4hp4KFedSOEL2C0j8htB2um4C8KFyX4gAYMPJoBfZqlrCmXsyLjdjIvN wd7FLLKA6CNVjwYsDgmKiLQm0Np4fz1AW72rnGGktyUT3u0GsbyDmwM6YU80anh647Pc7cyo ie6c21Ajcph1k7BjHAB/EopQzoQVporHFrCNqhpgVXihhlVDGdOD1JSHCgWO4toflJAT6+kP 3uOXeHv6AoLcXKnY/8QWFjwoj9DYtpw4bSsiP++sF3Dg0xaaivvOzU5+IBoSxNTnqj0M7/Fk jergVF60QdwMGukFZDMSjFnX/gvFPbxy4JebvrfzSY5ZJxLjrlswSeVkWTU1DvtfJxJHKTPQ 9dnodrSN3vynJS+u+wRbzQLdSLBgSgGbUVVHu2dyJhXGPwoh/2Gu4gFilV6+dBhcwHwuxlsd 0pdnTdq4wJodT1rDZRgP3QjR+miyFqjahUDMTJlf4BRq6CiWiHb5UfvQvUsPtMLfQafqYCEy 98b4RHnbckPXa+pXRTYz3z9CBuiJTQWTT0CIBVLhyzqQjYrFTM7BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE3/AF mEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fxj+uX vLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHwyIaw sSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVOBR8x UCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8ITaNdF SAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZtPP9 gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJHE8JM aX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCVaTfJ LFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+uPlD tuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwODyVw k3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRAO 2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvbgB4C tkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK83OG nfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9Oy1wW y6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDvLwOU YKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWvKKmB NBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiGpWv4 tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJBX6j eYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0Ohbn ytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ9DYm tE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <7f7fced1-489b-94a8-170b-0038e330484f@digitaldissidents.org> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 13:08:34 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 1aface135a56bc3c00430d8c4acb72ca Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 11:08:42 -0000 Hi all, Thanks for the great responses! On 04/19/2018 11:08 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > Hi Niels, > > Thanks for the extensive review. Much appreciated. Many of Michael's > comments are spot on; I'll add my replies below (and trim a bit of the > explanatory text to save space): > > On 19 Apr 2018, at 11:59, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> Niels ten Oever wrote: >>> This is a review done within the framework of the Human Rights Review >>> Team, is was done by Beatrice Martini and Niels ten Oever. The Human >> >> Thank you. >> >>> 1) >>> Section: 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values >> >>> Text from draft: >>> "Inclusiveness: We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote >>> participation of anyone who wants to be involved." >> >>> We suggest an edit along these lines: >>> "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of >>> anyone who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the diversity >>> of perspectives represented in the working sessions" >> >> I suggest you reword your suggestion to: >>    "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of >>    anyone who wants to be involved.  Widespread participation >>    contributes to the diversity of perspectives represented in the >> working sessions" >> >> the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the sentence can >> otherwise be parsed >> to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who >> contribute to >> increased diversity. > > I have to agree with Michael's suggestion. In addition to the possible > ambiguity, there was pretty explicit consensus in the WG that the > objective was to facilitate people who participants that want to > participate, and explicitly not to use venue selection for purposes of > outreach. Michael's reformulation makes that a bit clearer. Does that > satisfy your concern? > Yes! >>> 2) >>> We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in regards to >>> the affordability of participation. >> >> This is my intepretation. >> >>> Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, and >>> that budget solutions should be available. That's great. >> >>> From Section 2.  Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values: >>> "Economics: >>> Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are >>> underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded.  In order >>> to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek >>> locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food and >>> lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airports to the >>> Venue.  Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to accommodation." >> >>> But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable. >> >>> From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria: >>> "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage is >>> affordable, within the norms of business travel." >> >>> "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self-funded budget >>> travel". >> >> The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so >> expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "business >> travel".  There are locations (resorts in really exotic locations) where >> the nightly price of room is like $500/night.  The intention is to rule >> those out. >> As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often afford to >> stay at >> the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a few >> blocks.  So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled. > > Michael's explanation is correct, but I take your point that "guest > rooms" in the second bullet of 3.2.2 sounds like the combination of > rooms in the IETF Hotels, Overflow Hotels, and other nearby local > accommodations. Perhaps we can clarify. Let's see if Eliot has any > thoughts. > >>> 3) >>> We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2. >>> Basic Venue Criteria. >> >>> 3.1) >>> "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom >>> with stalls on each floor." >> >> I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's gonna be two >> hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be a >> reasonable criteria. > > Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter into > a contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make this > mandatory at this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient > number of Facilities meet this criterion already. Perhaps something > along these lines could be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we'd > want input that there are such Facilities available, lest the criteria > simply be ignored. > 3.2.2 would be nice, also because asking hotels/venues for this also would prompt them to include it in their renovation plans. >> On the topic of being family friendly,  the major thing we can do to >> support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the nomcom >> eligibility criteria. > > Agreed Michael. :-) One does not exclude the other imho. > > On to the rest of your comments, Niels: > >>> 3.2) >>> "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding >>> room and one family restroom." > > I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Venue", correct? > Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to hear from > IASA that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable number of > Facilities. > I would be surprised if this would not be the case. >>> 3.3) >>> "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those with >>> respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during daytime and >>> nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the scheduled >>> activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." > > I have no particular concerns about adding this in section 3.3, barring > objections. > >>> 3.4) > > There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go in > 3.3? > Yes, sry. >>> We believe that supporting parents with small children attending events >>> is a great step forward towards inclusivity. >>> >>> We would like the document to address this aspect in regards to venue >>> requirements. >>> >>> In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide >>> information about the following: >>> >>> * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their kid(s) >>> with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age not allowed >>> to be in session rooms? >>> >>> * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like a >>> play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professional? See >>> further information about childcare at events at: >>> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Childcare >>> >>> If the organization determines that children should not be allowed to >>> access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be provided, >>> it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge that the >>> organization is aware of the limitation that this would constitute and >>> that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. > > Whether children can be present in meeting rooms sounds like a policy > issue beyond the question of venue selection, so I believe is out of > scope for the document. > > As for whether having childcare services available at the Facility or > Hotels should go in 3.3, I have no particular concerns about adding it, > again, barring objections. > Thanks >>> 4) >>> We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other >>> Considerations. >>> >>> Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says: >>> "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made to >>> allow access by people with disabilities." >>> >>> This is great! >>> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation might >>> create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session could >>> be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another participant >>> with a severe allergy to dogs. >>> >>> It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideration on this >>> type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it could >>> say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the organizing team >>> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis. >>> >>> This statement should also include information about who / what team can >>> be contacted to ask for information in case of need. > > I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2 makes > sense. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up with > something. > >>> 5) >>> Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons" >>> >>> Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations" > > Of course. > > Thanks again for the great comments. > > pr Our pleasure! Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 From nobody Fri Apr 20 06:14:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0195B12D77B for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 06:14:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_GREY=0.424] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=beatricemartini-it.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e3WUe4EtF6gO for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 06:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 207A812D7E4 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 06:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id l2-v6so9025144iog.9 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 06:14:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=beatricemartini-it.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qJ4ypEj+Wiu2KLcX8rSGUW1clTv6eRcvQtZOmvwpkUk=; b=DVEkmPNi1pJla03R89X4rSTLoj2gVN/U449zdXdEWdX/UBhFPvOa8BO2y2FwuS2/eE QMQgAN0CE+/ApJQAW7hC5uvTqTHtRUKYg3xF26gY2O+/1LTxmbmiPBaLP7WJxa7dqUF/ OnIfMrhyE1SAS9uv9otZ7m7LqmLOkJmAnx7QxlIAoOqdEAaS/MzbErZxV37O5yrDwDaA YKiTvRsgp3yv3TpQnNjOwOwLWWP/fG1Qh2qNCakr4Z/yM2fTwoFodvn3waYBBBIBmxoJ quZYQH/O7eNSS3R7Z0WJfQZhGrftpWsFQlfvSDPcOeIkBijKgFNaBwTFSjtSWIRCJW7u eKjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qJ4ypEj+Wiu2KLcX8rSGUW1clTv6eRcvQtZOmvwpkUk=; b=iS+G/+1IaNBgQb94fYwgqtgPvbbYddS4r0qUBjA/x4hCW2ZfxbiXEH1Wb8V3UcnldX c4DkR2G1yPxYroy4PUvhUYucNW3YJ5FtUCf+mgNc2VTXIg66+pILa+tdbFo5CoG4F7L/ BKTSxK+4vb1aH1y2N/GS8tMRNrM2+lF3BDK8/CuERqwLeTv3Cq2KDbLvDha2O/UTzsw5 UEddshkfkc9IkhzGodCI+VaM/6CgxN/2xqSI3nPx3lCXUuOXoF/XhlU4DwF787QG50Fi vPHjixgNySW3fxScJt132iKR8XfnDMKq55dCpaDu54PDUDzy3OlkPNwnakKMdxLxbZYN EpWw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDyFSfJnEClgUJGtoHEbvtB7/0n2mJ4wxuMYKtAaasNNPZKVuTZ auWRj5LKQeqQc5NngkSAALIyrMtbPGSTET1frEIbfg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48gh2CkukvsItaPbZYVCeuvffCwIAm9MPEg1GhC+odNkGd5nbszQ8pZdjI1c+LvNzxq0MTtDzEtqj+OPgQMGAU= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:2583:: with SMTP id l125-v6mr10757907iol.151.1524230075149; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 06:14:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a02:840e:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 06:14:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7f7fced1-489b-94a8-170b-0038e330484f@digitaldissidents.org> References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <7f7fced1-489b-94a8-170b-0038e330484f@digitaldissidents.org> From: Beatrice Martini Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 15:14:34 +0200 Message-ID: To: Niels ten Oever Cc: Pete Resnick , hr-rt@irtf.org, draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002f8fac056a4778fd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 13:14:41 -0000 --0000000000002f8fac056a4778fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Michael, hi Pete, Thank you for your prompt responses. Best, Beatrice On 20 April 2018 at 13:08, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi all, > > Thanks for the great responses! > > On 04/19/2018 11:08 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > > Hi Niels, > > > > Thanks for the extensive review. Much appreciated. Many of Michael's > > comments are spot on; I'll add my replies below (and trim a bit of the > > explanatory text to save space): > > > > On 19 Apr 2018, at 11:59, Michael Richardson wrote: > > > >> Niels ten Oever wrote: > >>> This is a review done within the framework of the Human Rights Review > >>> Team, is was done by Beatrice Martini and Niels ten Oever. The Human > >> > >> Thank you. > >> > >>> 1) > >>> Section: 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values > >> > >>> Text from draft: > >>> "Inclusiveness: We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote > >>> participation of anyone who wants to be involved." > >> > >>> We suggest an edit along these lines: > >>> "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of > >>> anyone who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the diversity > >>> of perspectives represented in the working sessions" > >> > >> I suggest you reword your suggestion to: > >> "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of > >> anyone who wants to be involved. Widespread participation > >> contributes to the diversity of perspectives represented in the > >> working sessions" > >> > >> the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the sentence can > >> otherwise be parsed > >> to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who > >> contribute to > >> increased diversity. > > > > I have to agree with Michael's suggestion. In addition to the possible > > ambiguity, there was pretty explicit consensus in the WG that the > > objective was to facilitate people who participants that want to > > participate, and explicitly not to use venue selection for purposes of > > outreach. Michael's reformulation makes that a bit clearer. Does that > > satisfy your concern? > > > > Yes! > > >>> 2) > >>> We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in regards to > >>> the affordability of participation. > >> > >> This is my intepretation. > >> > >>> Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, and > >>> that budget solutions should be available. That's great. > >> > >>> From Section 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values: > >>> "Economics: > >>> Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are > >>> underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded. In order > >>> to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek > >>> locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food and > >>> lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airports to the > >>> Venue. Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to > accommodation." > >> > >>> But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable. > >> > >>> From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria: > >>> "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage is > >>> affordable, within the norms of business travel." > >> > >>> "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self-funded budget > >>> travel". > >> > >> The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so > >> expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "business > >> travel". There are locations (resorts in really exotic locations) where > >> the nightly price of room is like $500/night. The intention is to rule > >> those out. > >> As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often afford to > >> stay at > >> the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a few > >> blocks. So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled. > > > > Michael's explanation is correct, but I take your point that "guest > > rooms" in the second bullet of 3.2.2 sounds like the combination of > > rooms in the IETF Hotels, Overflow Hotels, and other nearby local > > accommodations. Perhaps we can clarify. Let's see if Eliot has any > > thoughts. > > > >>> 3) > >>> We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2. > >>> Basic Venue Criteria. > >> > >>> 3.1) > >>> "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom > >>> with stalls on each floor." > >> > >> I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's gonna be two > >> hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be a > >> reasonable criteria. > > > > Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter into > > a contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make this > > mandatory at this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient > > number of Facilities meet this criterion already. Perhaps something > > along these lines could be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we'd > > want input that there are such Facilities available, lest the criteria > > simply be ignored. > > > > 3.2.2 would be nice, also because asking hotels/venues for this also > would prompt them to include it in their renovation plans. > > >> On the topic of being family friendly, the major thing we can do to > >> support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the nomcom > >> eligibility criteria. > > > > Agreed Michael. :-) > > One does not exclude the other imho. > > > > > On to the rest of your comments, Niels: > > > >>> 3.2) > >>> "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding > >>> room and one family restroom." > > > > I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Venue", correct? > > Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to hear from > > IASA that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable number of > > Facilities. > > > > I would be surprised if this would not be the case. > > >>> 3.3) > >>> "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those with > >>> respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during daytime and > >>> nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the scheduled > >>> activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." > > > > I have no particular concerns about adding this in section 3.3, barring > > objections. > > > >>> 3.4) > > > > There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go in > > 3.3? > > > > Yes, sry. > > >>> We believe that supporting parents with small children attending events > >>> is a great step forward towards inclusivity. > >>> > >>> We would like the document to address this aspect in regards to venue > >>> requirements. > >>> > >>> In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide > >>> information about the following: > >>> > >>> * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their kid(s) > >>> with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age not allowed > >>> to be in session rooms? > >>> > >>> * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like a > >>> play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professional? See > >>> further information about childcare at events at: > >>> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Childcare > >>> > >>> If the organization determines that children should not be allowed to > >>> access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be provided, > >>> it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge that the > >>> organization is aware of the limitation that this would constitute and > >>> that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. > > > > Whether children can be present in meeting rooms sounds like a policy > > issue beyond the question of venue selection, so I believe is out of > > scope for the document. > > > > As for whether having childcare services available at the Facility or > > Hotels should go in 3.3, I have no particular concerns about adding it, > > again, barring objections. > > > > Thanks > > >>> 4) > >>> We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other > >>> Considerations. > >>> > >>> Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says: > >>> "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made to > >>> allow access by people with disabilities." > >>> > >>> This is great! > >>> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation might > >>> create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session could > >>> be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another > participant > >>> with a severe allergy to dogs. > >>> > >>> It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideration on this > >>> type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it > could > >>> say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the organizing team > >>> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis. > >>> > >>> This statement should also include information about who / what team > can > >>> be contacted to ask for information in case of need. > > > > I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2 makes > > sense. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up with > > something. > > > >>> 5) > >>> Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons" > >>> > >>> Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations" > > > > Of course. > > > > Thanks again for the great comments. > > > > pr > > Our pleasure! > > Best, > > Niels > > -- > Niels ten Oever > Head of Digital > > Article 19 > www.article19.org > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > -- Beatrice Martini Twitter / Blog / Newsletter --0000000000002f8fac056a4778fd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Michael, hi Pete,

Thank you= for your prompt responses.

Best,
Beatrice
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On 20 April 2018 a= t 13:08, Niels ten Oever <lists@digitaldissidents.org> wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks for the great responses!

On 04/19/2018 11:08 PM, Pete Resnick wrote:
> Hi Niels,
>
> Thanks for the extensive review. Much appreciated. Many of Michael'= ;s
> comments are spot on; I'll add my replies below (and trim a bit of= the
> explanatory text to save space):
>
> On 19 Apr 2018, at 11:59, Michael Richardson wrote:
>
>> Niels ten Oever <lists@digitaldissidents.org> wrote:
>>> This is a review done within the framework of the Human Rights= Review
>>> Team, is was done by Beatrice Martini and Niels ten Oever. The= Human
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>> 1)
>>> Section: 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values
>>
>>> Text from draft:
>>> "Inclusiveness: We would like to facilitate the onsite or= remote
>>> participation of anyone who wants to be involved."
>>
>>> We suggest an edit along these lines:
>>> "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote partici= pation of
>>> anyone who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the = diversity
>>> of perspectives represented in the working sessions"
>>
>> I suggest you reword your suggestion to:
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remot= e participation of
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 anyone who wants to be involved.=C2=A0 Widespread par= ticipation
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 contributes to the diversity of perspectives represen= ted in the
>> working sessions"
>>
>> the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the s= entence can
>> otherwise be parsed
>> to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who >> contribute to
>> increased diversity.
>
> I have to agree with Michael's suggestion. In addition to the poss= ible
> ambiguity, there was pretty explicit consensus in the WG that the
> objective was to facilitate people who participants that want to
> participate, and explicitly not to use venue selection for purposes of=
> outreach. Michael's reformulation makes that a bit clearer. Does t= hat
> satisfy your concern?
>

Yes!

>>> 2)
>>> We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in re= gards to
>>> the affordability of participation.
>>
>> This is my intepretation.
>>
>>> Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-fun= ded, and
>>> that budget solutions should be available. That's great. >>
>>> From Section 2.=C2=A0 Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Va= lues:
>>> "Economics:
>>> Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are >>> underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded.= =C2=A0 In order
>>> to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore = seek
>>> locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food= and
>>> lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airport= s to the
>>> Venue.=C2=A0 Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to = accommodation."
>>
>>> But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable.
>>
>>> From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria:
>>> "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and= beverage is
>>> affordable, within the norms of business travel."
>>
>>> "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than &q= uot;self-funded budget
>>> travel".
>>
>> The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so=
>> expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "= business
>> travel".=C2=A0 There are locations (resorts in really exotic = locations) where
>> the nightly price of room is like $500/night.=C2=A0 The intention = is to rule
>> those out.
>> As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often affor= d to
>> stay at
>> the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a f= ew
>> blocks.=C2=A0 So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled= .
>
> Michael's explanation is correct, but I take your point that "= ;guest
> rooms" in the second bullet of 3.2.2 sounds like the combination = of
> rooms in the IETF Hotels, Overflow Hotels, and other nearby local
> accommodations. Perhaps we can clarify. Let's see if Eliot has any=
> thoughts.
>
>>> 3)
>>> We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3= .2.2.
>>> Basic Venue Criteria.
>>
>>> 3.1)
>>> "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutr= al restroom
>>> with stalls on each floor."
>>
>> I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's = gonna be two
>> hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be = a
>> reasonable criteria.
>
> Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter in= to
> a contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make this > mandatory at this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient
> number of Facilities meet this criterion already. Perhaps something > along these lines could be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we&#= 39;d
> want input that there are such Facilities available, lest the criteria=
> simply be ignored.
>

3.2.2 would be nice, also because asking hotels/venues for this= also
would prompt them to include it in their renovation plans.

>> On the topic of being family friendly,=C2=A0 the major thing we ca= n do to
>> support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the no= mcom
>> eligibility criteria.
>
> Agreed Michael. :-)

One does not exclude the other imho.

>
> On to the rest of your comments, Niels:
>
>>> 3.2)
>>> "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated inf= ant feeding
>>> room and one family restroom."
>
> I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Ven= ue", correct?
> Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to hear fr= om
> IASA that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable number of > Facilities.
>

I would be surprised if this would not be the case.

>>> 3.3)
>>> "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those = with
>>> respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during da= ytime and
>>> nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the = scheduled
>>> activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." >
> I have no particular concerns about adding this in section 3.3, barrin= g
> objections.
>
>>> 3.4)
>
> There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go i= n
> 3.3?
>

Yes, sry.

>>> We believe that supporting parents with small children attendi= ng events
>>> is a great step forward towards inclusivity.
>>>
>>> We would like the document to address this aspect in regards t= o venue
>>> requirements.
>>>
>>> In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide=
>>> information about the following:
>>>
>>> * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their = kid(s)
>>> with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age no= t allowed
>>> to be in session rooms?
>>>
>>> * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like = a
>>> play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professiona= l? See
>>> further information about childcare at events at:
>>> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/C= hildcare
>>>
>>> If the organization determines that children should not be all= owed to
>>> access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be = provided,
>>> it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge t= hat the
>>> organization is aware of the limitation that this would consti= tute and
>>> that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. >
> Whether children can be present in meeting rooms sounds like a policy<= br> > issue beyond the question of venue selection, so I believe is out of > scope for the document.
>
> As for whether having childcare services available at the Facility or<= br> > Hotels should go in 3.3, I have no particular concerns about adding it= ,
> again, barring objections.
>

Thanks

>>> 4)
>>> We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 = Other
>>> Considerations.
>>>
>>> Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says:
>>> "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations = can be made to
>>> allow access by people with disabilities."
>>>
>>> This is great!
>>> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommod= ation might
>>> create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same sessi= on could
>>> be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another p= articipant
>>> with a severe allergy to dogs.
>>>
>>> It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideratio= n on this
>>> type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example= , it could
>>> say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the org= anizing team
>>> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case = basis.
>>>
>>> This statement should also include information about who / wha= t team can
>>> be contacted to ask for information in case of need.
>
> I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2 make= s
> sense. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up with<= br> > something.
>
>>> 5)
>>> Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons&quo= t;
>>>
>>> Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations"
>
> Of course.
>
> Thanks again for the great comments.
>
> pr

Our pleasure!

Best,

Niels

--
Niels ten Oever
Head of Digital

Article 19
w= ww.article19.org

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--
Beatrice Martini
--0000000000002f8fac056a4778fd-- From nobody Fri Apr 20 08:08:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9C412D7E8 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:08:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l556LrXkXrSe for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x232.google.com (mail-oi0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 057B61275F4 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x232.google.com with SMTP id 126-v6so8318047oig.0 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:08:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vz9XtZrW+pxSd9y7Y0hxz3fDNZF0B592cTplPBMXoYA=; b=UUPXDdOVmQH2U22e5lDCEiA9bAwNNk97iE5z4xyxik2f/6LBo+U6Pij2gXXQGfvIg1 P59pITnqp+/8kLNu2XaqJnz6rzfniMPhOszorMO7bz1knsZWgOkTTRstFurstyO/I5fW IirnYwUpewMJMUl/FWv12o11SGJsKSRfAWgzZpMojLuNiSNk0Ep7PKF+7LNLEpmTBTE7 CVSx7Uywn53pNqThu7RN0VKNDiaM/UktnCk6oV07wJUYvac0XgEL7WrjytkAssITRVFA io6wxpXqpWsKskMMMAj5YDqA5ItU11K14XGtxnF9JD2Ax2IbTK98Argwnxjbk0pFSmyM 3pWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vz9XtZrW+pxSd9y7Y0hxz3fDNZF0B592cTplPBMXoYA=; b=mrfpN0Ba62wOL9UYJ3/u9NsbpZjufokxSp1EvIOUj9rsCo64WBN5c6NIJ1bK7KXPCr A+demleGG/Ri3USvJ3MB+s6/WcimeXkBu7JTrI8zjpv5yRVqylOePKAA83eFPi2jnF2c IZQnMV+7l8RcOHgRc3Ia75rsfkK+yx2oGCLshViB6XDyV0vQlgwnz5zANk9wF6r9NUui cFU+9KqALaajS9ZD13PDLKZI2kLgvIX4Zh/Y5aaiS+y8fSDY3NgtVDtOqjZ6mJuyWbc6 srDgk3Zy1/xR648c/VkGUXsGBvlVI3cWVsrH0/Qm7KwXL7Qs50qCvS5YZ+dQKYX92jod ytMw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAPcaEtTmeHNMokAjbo1pWG3gxXrzNk2yHLxiHqNOduk/txsOjk WpN5YR2QcTM5JqD9jLfFEU+WxtO1yVdzyymDJ4Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49ksiSGsXolAAPoUJ2ug+kG4vMrKpJy9fof3/CswvdeGDk4xaQLEwqKJhiVeo+8N/pUFZgf0C/Lv6Yw1WukfaQ= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5d46:: with SMTP id r67-v6mr6177508oib.257.1524236915272; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:08:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.201.45.161 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:08:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> From: Mary B Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 10:08:34 -0500 Message-ID: To: Pete Resnick Cc: Niels ten Oever , hr-rt@irtf.org, draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org, "" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e3949f056a490f5f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 15:08:39 -0000 --000000000000e3949f056a490f5f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I'm glad this discussion has come up. I have one comment below [MB]. Regards, Mary. On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > Hi Niels, > > Thanks for the extensive review. Much appreciated. Many of Michael's > comments are spot on; I'll add my replies below (and trim a bit of the > explanatory text to save space): > > On 19 Apr 2018, at 11:59, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Niels ten Oever wrote: >> >>> This is a review done within the framework of the Human Rights Review >>> Team, is was done by Beatrice Martini and Niels ten Oever. The Human >>> >> >> Thank you. >> >> 1) >>> Section: 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values >>> >> >> Text from draft: >>> "Inclusiveness: We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote >>> participation of anyone who wants to be involved." >>> >> >> We suggest an edit along these lines: >>> "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of >>> anyone who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the diversity >>> of perspectives represented in the working sessions" >>> >> >> I suggest you reword your suggestion to: >> "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of >> anyone who wants to be involved. Widespread participation >> contributes to the diversity of perspectives represented in the >> working sessions" >> >> the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the sentence can >> otherwise be parsed >> to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who >> contribute to >> increased diversity. >> > > I have to agree with Michael's suggestion. In addition to the possible > ambiguity, there was pretty explicit consensus in the WG that the objective > was to facilitate people who participants that want to participate, and > explicitly not to use venue selection for purposes of outreach. Michael's > reformulation makes that a bit clearer. Does that satisfy your concern? > > > 2) >>> We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in regards to >>> the affordability of participation. >>> >> >> This is my intepretation. >> >> Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, and >>> that budget solutions should be available. That's great. >>> >> >> From Section 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values: >>> "Economics: >>> Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are >>> underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded. In order >>> to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek >>> locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food and >>> lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airports to the >>> Venue. Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to accommodation." >>> >> >> But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable. >>> >> >> From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria: >>> "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage is >>> affordable, within the norms of business travel." >>> >> >> "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self-funded budget >>> travel". >>> >> >> The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so >> expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "business >> travel". There are locations (resorts in really exotic locations) where >> the nightly price of room is like $500/night. The intention is to rule >> those out. >> As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often afford to stay at >> the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a few >> blocks. So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled. >> > > Michael's explanation is correct, but I take your point that "guest rooms" > in the second bullet of 3.2.2 sounds like the combination of rooms in the > IETF Hotels, Overflow Hotels, and other nearby local accommodations. > Perhaps we can clarify. Let's see if Eliot has any thoughts. > > 3) >>> We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2. >>> Basic Venue Criteria. >>> >> >> 3.1) >>> "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom >>> with stalls on each floor." >>> >> >> I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's gonna be two >> hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be a >> reasonable criteria. >> > > Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter into a > contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make this mandatory at > this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient number of Facilities > meet this criterion already. Perhaps something along these lines could be > added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we'd want input that there are such > Facilities available, lest the criteria simply be ignored. > > On the topic of being family friendly, the major thing we can do to >> support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the nomcom >> eligibility criteria. >> > > Agreed Michael. :-) > > On to the rest of your comments, Niels: > > 3.2) >>> "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding >>> room and one family restroom." >>> >> > I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Venue", correct? Like > the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to hear from IASA > that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable number of Facilities. > > 3.3) >>> "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those with >>> respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during daytime and >>> nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the scheduled >>> activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." >>> >> > I have no particular concerns about adding this in section 3.3, barring > objections. > [MB] I think this is a good thing as we had problems with this at the Prague venue at one time due to the casino. And, if we're concerned about air quality and respiratory issues, can we please add to the last sentence: "..exposed to second-hand smoke and mold." The venue in Singapore had *a lot* of visible water damage, in particular on the acoustic ceiling tiles that are well known to be a wonderful breeding ground for mold. While I might have been the only one that was literally on the floor due to the extent of mold and the mycotoxins the molds produce, others did experience respiratory issues and 25% of the population has the genetic predisposition to get sick from mold exposure - the body does not recognize and remove the toxins which then remain in the body and contribute to chronic inflammation. And, yes, the world is full of mold and I spend a lot of time in the world and if a place impacts me to the point it did in Singapore it is a *very* sick building. [/MB] 3.4) >>> >> > There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go in > 3.3? > > We believe that supporting parents with small children attending events >>> is a great step forward towards inclusivity. >>> >>> We would like the document to address this aspect in regards to venue >>> requirements. >>> >>> In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide >>> information about the following: >>> >>> * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their kid(s) >>> with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age not allowed >>> to be in session rooms? >>> >>> * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like a >>> play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professional? See >>> further information about childcare at events at: >>> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Childcare >>> >>> If the organization determines that children should not be allowed to >>> access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be provided, >>> it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge that the >>> organization is aware of the limitation that this would constitute and >>> that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. >>> >> > Whether children can be present in meeting rooms sounds like a policy > issue beyond the question of venue selection, so I believe is out of scope > for the document. > > As for whether having childcare services available at the Facility or > Hotels should go in 3.3, I have no particular concerns about adding it, > again, barring objections. > > 4) >>> We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other >>> Considerations. >>> >>> Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says: >>> "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made to >>> allow access by people with disabilities." >>> >>> This is great! >>> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation might >>> create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session could >>> be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another participant >>> with a severe allergy to dogs. >>> >>> It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideration on this >>> type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it could >>> say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the organizing team >>> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis. >>> >>> This statement should also include information about who / what team can >>> be contacted to ask for information in case of need. >>> >> > I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2 makes > sense. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up with something. > > 5) >>> Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons" >>> >>> Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations" >>> >> > Of course. > > Thanks again for the great comments. > > pr > > --000000000000e3949f056a490f5f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm glad this discussion has come up.=C2=A0 I have one= comment below [MB].

Regards,
Mary.

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at = 4:08 PM, Pete Resnick <presnick@qti.qualcomm.com> wr= ote:
Hi Niels,

Thanks for the extensive review. Much appreciated. Many of Michael's co= mments are spot on; I'll add my replies below (and trim a bit of the ex= planatory text to save space):

On 19 Apr 2018, at 11:59, Michael Richardson wrote:

Niels ten Oever <lists@digitaldissidents.org> wrote:
This is a review done within the framework of the Human Rights Review
Team, is was done by Beatrice Martini and Niels ten Oever. The Human

Thank you.

1)
Section: 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values

Text from draft:
"Inclusiveness: We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote
participation of anyone who wants to be involved."

We suggest an edit along these lines:
"We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of
anyone who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the diversity
of perspectives represented in the working sessions"

 I suggest you reword your suggestion to:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0"We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote partici= pation of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0anyone who wants to be involved.=C2=A0 Widespread participatio= n
=C2=A0 =C2=A0contributes to the diversity of perspectives represented in th= e working sessions"

the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the sentence c= an otherwise be parsed
to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who contribute = to
increased diversity.

I have to agree with Michael's suggestion. In addition to the possible = ambiguity, there was pretty explicit consensus in the WG that the objective= was to facilitate people who participants that want to participate, and ex= plicitly not to use venue selection for purposes of outreach. Michael's= reformulation makes that a bit clearer. Does that satisfy your concern?


2)
We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in regards to
the affordability of participation.

This is my intepretation.

Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, and
that budget solutions should be available. That's great.

>From Section 2.=C2=A0 Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values:
"Economics:
Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are
underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded.=C2=A0 In order=
to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek
locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food and
lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airports to the
Venue.=C2=A0 Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to accommodation= ."

But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable.

>From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria:
"The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage is<= br> affordable, within the norms of business travel."

"Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self-fund= ed budget
travel".

The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so
expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "business<= br> travel".=C2=A0 There are locations (resorts in really exotic locations= ) where
the nightly price of room is like $500/night.=C2=A0 The intention is to rul= e
those out.
As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often afford to stay= at
the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a few
blocks.=C2=A0 So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled.

Michael's explanation is correct, but I take your point that "gues= t rooms" in the second bullet of 3.2.2 sounds like the combination of = rooms in the IETF Hotels, Overflow Hotels, and other nearby local accommoda= tions. Perhaps we can clarify. Let's see if Eliot has any thoughts.

3)
We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2.
Basic Venue Criteria.

3.1)
"All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom with stalls on each floor."

 I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's gonna be = two
hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be a
reasonable criteria.

Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter into a = contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make this mandator= y at this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient number of Facili= ties meet this criterion already. Perhaps something along these lines could= be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we'd want input that there a= re such Facilities available, lest the criteria simply be ignored.

On the topic of being family friendly,=C2=A0 the major thing we can do to support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the nomcom
eligibility criteria.

 Agreed Michael. :-)

On to the rest of your comments, Niels:

3.2)
"The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding room and one family restroom."

 I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Venue&qu= ot;, correct? Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want t= o hear from IASA that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable numbe= r of Facilities.

3.3)
"The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those with
respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during daytime and
nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the scheduled
activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke."

 I have no particular concerns about adding this in section 3.3, barring obj= ections.
[MB] I think this is a good thing as we had p= roblems with this at the Prague venue at one time due to the casino.=C2=A0 = And, if we're concerned about air quality and respiratory issues, can w= e please add to the last sentence:=C2=A0 "..exposed to second-hand smo= ke and mold."=C2=A0 =C2=A0The venue in Singapore had *a lot* of visibl= e water damage, in particular on the acoustic ceiling tiles that are well k= nown to be a wonderful breeding ground for mold.=C2=A0 While I might have b= een the only one that was literally on the floor due to the extent of mold = and the mycotoxins the molds produce, others did experience respiratory iss= ues and 25% of the population has the genetic predisposition to get sick fr= om mold exposure - the body does not recognize and remove the toxins which = then remain in the body and contribute to chronic inflammation.=C2=A0 And, = yes, the world is full of mold and I spend a lot of time in the world and i= f a place impacts me to the point it did in Singapore it is a *very* sick b= uilding.=C2=A0 [/MB]

3.4)

There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go in 3.3= ?

We believe that supporting parents with small children attending events
is a great step forward towards inclusivity.

We would like the document to address this aspect in regards to venue
requirements.

In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide
information about the following:

* Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their kid(s)
with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age not allowed
to be in session rooms?

* Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like a
play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professional? See
further information about childcare at events at:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Childcare
If the organization determines that children should not be allowed to
access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be provided,
it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge that the
organization is aware of the limitation that this would constitute and
that this might hinder the participation of some attendees.

 Whether children can be present in meeting rooms sounds like a policy issue= beyond the question of venue selection, so I believe is out of scope for t= he document.

As for whether having childcare services available at the Facility or Hotel= s should go in 3.3, I have no particular concerns about adding it, again, b= arring objections.

4)
We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other
Considerations.

Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says:
"The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made t= o
allow access by people with disabilities."

This is great!
At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation might create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session could
be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another participant with a severe allergy to dogs.

It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideration on this
type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it could say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the organizing team<= br> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis.

This statement should also include information about who / what team can be contacted to ask for information in case of need.

 I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2 makes sen= se. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up with somethin= g.

5)
Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons"

Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations"

 Of course.

Thanks again for the great comments.

pr


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20 Apr 2018 16:44:39 +0000 Received: from [10.61.210.190] ([10.61.210.190]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3KGidqJ015030; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 16:44:39 GMT To: Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever Cc: hr-rt@irtf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwHsEEwECACUCGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheABQJTHtXCAhkBAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozBNoH/j0Mdnyg CgNNmI4DyL9mGfTJ/+XiTxWXMK4TTszwwn/tsXjyPQWjoO6nYqz5i96ItmSpkelSGVpzU+LK LQxSjFeUvKw23bp1rVecfGR+OENSE1m6KfFj3vtzQOZ2/FgK210MWnlYNNyAHX6Pf6hKInTP v6LbZiAQMCmf0aPvRbk/aPSNJAuIKrLrrCgAlwelrTavFsSwnKI3dhSG8DJ9+z/uiXDiHYra Ub3BKp5K/x71Zd8hUsWm2simnE/6HvZaZz7CC29JSZ/5gGtNB3OMNKLzLWUbQacF3IKxpW66 ZFYFYnlBV4jRnKlmb40YcEXWVJkkVC8g+/J9Qo6R8BdmSTXOwE0EUx7VRAEIALRZXth1u/3n FgY+G2FN0KEEik+2Xsk8JX9zr/eISa+Ol8a4U1orgxpyP2V7bQQDkDUEfs+Asagc6I8zrk3K xGln3pFFVfdM18uaEYwWvmE84Y12r7FwYdW62bA9X1Ttsp5Q1GI8XHdh0SQTF12pXYTwWW1P THYVIp7bGzM88cHqBW0xyRflu4j2nUrd9tWFd28SRxhj+MHQkQkbKFLloRty3lwdS8MCRPzX 9gUrkl+DxFHC7WrW3Vi4glI5YBlD0n2hSyDoP1GkKVT60gUGh7eJOnUBR8lzKm5wYqAtgq2m 79rKBylA40diRhbnTTeY+ytqMWFF5UXm97Jwxsezi7kAEQEAAcLAXwQYAQIACQUCUx7VRAIb DAAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6M5K5CADbunatgHsqHbR3KbpXxzralakEcdODGv/fbN6/EdKJeXrG9QKD lPxZTB9STw6+ANwESsr9uUMAxdDNKDeynjnQmFHxGdcdcXlnPZPThfseeUhUkbB/YKOfDIQA kKozNoKYj6Dcia+D/wvifIEW+GUUcO/6Qi8yK6PLJyM8C7vHEqmUGzX8gTCYOgAyOd4WZrC9 95CfB0yFIorw+MpK7MZTm5SbGPcYF9Gq9MzSqmaEw8U6YOElKYfnkcsCTLYyWaolhck+3/0R 9ISEWK5rUzqAuK40S4+Sn7yNycdCoqvQh4e3xSpzAu3aYZ8jKXQVV0X2G9Y+M1HMZuCqhPUO LTdF Message-ID: <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 18:44:38 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="arOkZ3KN4aAoptwzId4rOwpPvfCHrtjR1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 16:44:45 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --arOkZ3KN4aAoptwzId4rOwpPvfCHrtjR1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="jzOktyEuiiSFu1wHXfV7xkLIraqKmKDSr"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever Cc: hr-rt@irtf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org Message-ID: <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> Subject: Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> In-Reply-To: <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> --jzOktyEuiiSFu1wHXfV7xkLIraqKmKDSr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Hi Pete, Niels, and Michael, Please see below: On 19.04.18 23:08, Pete Resnick wrote: >> I suggest you reword your suggestion to: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote partici= pation of >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 anyone who wants to be involved.=C2=A0 Widespread partici= pation >> =C2=A0=C2=A0 contributes to the diversity of perspectives represented = in the >> working sessions" >> >> the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the sentence can >> otherwise be parsed >> to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who >> contribute to >> increased diversity. > > I have to agree with Michael's suggestion. In addition to the possible > ambiguity, there was pretty explicit consensus in the WG that the > objective was to facilitate people who participants that want to > participate, and explicitly not to use venue selection for purposes of > outreach. Michael's reformulation makes that a bit clearer. Does that > satisfy your concern? Propose to include the second sentence based on Niels' concurrence. > >>> 2) >>> We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in regards t= o >>> the affordability of participation. >> >> This is my intepretation. >> >>> Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, an= d >>> that budget solutions should be available. That's great. >> >>> From Section 2.=C2=A0 Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values: >>> "Economics: >>> Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are >>> underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded.=C2=A0 In= order >>> to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek >>> locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food and >>> lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airports to th= e >>> Venue.=C2=A0 Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to >>> accommodation." >> >>> But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable. >> >>> From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria: >>> "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage is= >>> affordable, within the norms of business travel." >> >>> "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self-funded budget= >>> travel". >> >> The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so >> expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "business >> travel".=C2=A0 There are locations (resorts in really exotic locations= ) where >> the nightly price of room is like $500/night.=C2=A0 The intention is t= o rule >> those out. >> As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often afford to >> stay at >> the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a few >> blocks.=C2=A0 So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled. > > Michael's explanation is correct, but I take your point that "guest > rooms" in the second bullet of 3.2.2 sounds like the combination of > rooms in the IETF Hotels, Overflow Hotels, and other nearby local > accommodations. Perhaps we can clarify. Let's see if Eliot has any > thoughts. How about the following: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The cost of gue= st rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is aff= ordable, within the norms of business travel,=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0and =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 there= are at least some inexpensive and safe =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 altern= ative=C2=A0 accommodations within easy reach to the Facility. > >>> 3) >>> We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2. >>> Basic Venue Criteria. >> >>> 3.1) >>> "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom >>> with stalls on each floor." >> >> I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's gonna be two= >> hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be a >> reasonable criteria. > > Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter > into a contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make this > mandatory at this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient > number of Facilities meet this criterion already. Perhaps something > along these lines could be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we'd > want input that there are such Facilities available, lest the criteria > simply be ignored. > >> On the topic of being family friendly,=C2=A0 the major thing we can do= to >> support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the nomcom= >> eligibility criteria. > > Agreed Michael. :-) > > On to the rest of your comments, Niels: > >>> 3.2) >>> "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding >>> room and one family restroom." > > I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Venue", correct? > Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to hear > from IASA that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable number > of Facilities. > >>> 3.3) >>> "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those with >>> respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during daytime a= nd >>> nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the schedul= ed >>> activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." > > I have no particular concerns about adding this in section 3.3, > barring objections. I would go further.=C2=A0 I cannot remember a time when there was smoking= at an IETF meeting, except perhaps in a bar.=C2=A0 Therefore, I would claim = that this is an oversight by the working group and an example of a requirement that was well understood by the Secretariat long before someone came up with the term "mtgvenue". Therefore, I would reformulate this as follows: =C2=A0=C2=A0 "The Facility MUST be prohibit indoor smoking.=C2=A0 IETF Ho= tels and Overflow Hotels MUST offer "No Smoking" rooms =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 attendees. > >>> 3.4) > > There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go > in 3.3? > >>> We believe that supporting parents with small children attending even= ts >>> is a great step forward towards inclusivity. >>> >>> We would like the document to address this aspect in regards to venue= >>> requirements. >>> >>> In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide >>> information about the following: >>> >>> * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their kid(s) >>> with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age not allow= ed >>> to be in session rooms? >>> >>> * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like a >>> play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professional? See >>> further information about childcare at events at: >>> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Childcare >>> >>> If the organization determines that children should not be allowed to= >>> access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be provide= d, >>> it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge that the= >>> organization is aware of the limitation that this would constitute an= d >>> that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. > > Whether children can be present in meeting rooms sounds like a policy > issue beyond the question of venue selection, so I believe is out of > scope for the document. > > As for whether having childcare services available at the Facility or > Hotels should go in 3.3, I have no particular concerns about adding > it, again, barring objections. (still no editor hat) My only question is whether these services are commonly offered. If so, It is desirable that preferably the Facility, or failing that the IETF Hotel(s), offer childcare services. > >>> 4) >>> We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other >>> Considerations. >>> >>> Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says: >>> "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made = to >>> allow access by people with disabilities." >>> >>> This is great! >>> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation might= >>> create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session coul= d >>> be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another >>> participant >>> with a severe allergy to dogs. >>> >>> It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideration on th= is >>> type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it >>> could >>> say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the organizing tea= m >>> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis. >>> >>> This statement should also include information about who / what team >>> can >>> be contacted to ask for information in case of need. > > I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2 > makes sense. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up > with something. I am not clear on whether this text should go into this draft or into the IASA's documentation.=C2=A0 The question I have is=C2=A0 this: is thi= s a venue selection criterion?=C2=A0 If so, and if IASA is reasonably aware of the conflict, then I think it goes in this document.=C2=A0 I would suggest an= example would help us understand that.=C2=A0 If not, then I think what is= being asked for is a directive to IASA in this document to provide attendees information about the above. Is that about right? Eliot > >>> 5) >>> Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons" >>> >>> Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations" > > Of course. > > Thanks again for the great comments. > > pr > --jzOktyEuiiSFu1wHXfV7xkLIraqKmKDSr-- --arOkZ3KN4aAoptwzId4rOwpPvfCHrtjR1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAlraGPYACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejN5iggAnX/HbA4v2DI5qBvvxjdfhFTM78GQ5IgpnsAZw1m2ZT7mN6gZBhgR5qlI qWXCCwa1dLqJhCRbWs3ni3K+xBF986X7NEdSqf7Qwm+S0IUrjQGhGE+lIL429ITJ gHM64KjxhS98jQm4wOB/HWx4CiWqC/30KdePrt+RgXm8V1+m1arVPueqwh4oF+2s qBFADFRHT24VH0rM0EhwjW3tox3X6l5fa6KVmSicU2v17ISJK+9vIB3MJg8Gk/TT GyTVcgWTMKG03cZMdoOOK0sauXvcvDwUuL3DipOsxwqbg5jBJ9qvVsWa3ybp/lF7 wkADsyakIgmycBC6nVnSQ21s4269kQ== =9guf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --arOkZ3KN4aAoptwzId4rOwpPvfCHrtjR1-- From nobody Fri Apr 20 15:54:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46269126CD6 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 15:54:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SZR_2elRGt_N for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 15:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00176a04.pphosted.com (mx0a-00176a04.pphosted.com [67.231.149.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7AC51241F3 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 15:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0047965.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0047965.ppops.net-00176a04. 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([100.124.56.53]) by potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com ([100.124.56.53]) with mapi id 15.01.0669.032; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 16:53:58 -0600 From: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" To: Eliot Lear , Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever CC: "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process Thread-Index: AQHT1//g4eAqZ1xMV06MgAMp86mxTqQI+ceAgAFIjAD///HXgA== Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 22:53:58 +0000 Message-ID: <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: 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z6-v6mr12591063plo.316.1524280763271; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 20:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.26] ([118.149.104.73]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l129sm10346038pgl.89.2018.04.20.20.19.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Apr 2018 20:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Brian Carpenter To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , Eliot Lear , Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever Cc: "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:19:29 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 03:19:26 -0000 Glenn, On 21/04/2018 10:53, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote: ... > The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage > is affordable, within the norms of business travel, and > there are at least some inexpensive and safe > alternative accommodations within easy reach to the Facility > > [GD] This is too vague to properly evaluable against and is why the business-travel norms was used. There are guidelines for business travel costs that are available that can guide evaluation of the criteria. However, terms like "inexpensive" , "safe" are very subjective and are not practical to evaluate against when testing the criteria in the document. The fact is that some people find the typical "official" IETF hotel rates exceed their budget. Try "substantially cheaper than the cheapest official hotel". I think IASA has enough common sense to know what "substantially" means. IASA surely already has to check the general safety of the area around the venue, and in any case the cheaper hotels need to be reasonably close. We already have text as follows: o The Facility environs include budget hotels within convenient travel time, cost, and effort. Maybe that's enough. It excludes isolated out-of-town venues and the like. ... > > [GD] The document is criteria used by IASA to vet a venue against, not a wish list to communicate to venues. I do not wish to undermine aspirations, but this document is not the place to capture them. It's used as an evaluation list IASA vet a venue against to determine if the venue meets the needs of the IETF community to meet at. Putting it in the document does not serve to communicate the aspirations to the venue as we are not handing the document to the venues being evaluated. If the aspirations are clearly identified as such, I can't see any harm in including them. IASA will use the hard criteria for evaluation, and may use the aspirations for background. Brian From nobody Fri Apr 20 23:48:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F34E12895E for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 23:48:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6hxeCOCUdy6S for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 23:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic313-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic313-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.133.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C4851200C1 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 23:48:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1524293294; bh=kn9FaEnOueQqiKaxNX8cBAw/2MazOdGT3+n7RXjrV3I=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=heQ3N4mSd61gipQT+64dFKvaKDW80mP+c0CmWuKknHAt62irjDVrz07645Z0HDMK3nZeQmNLad+0QWSlBwNfw8RNCcIUSqWcY0AWxzHtXi/ukbBriiSl4j41ytHZE9f3MH9laQmzh2P1cL9c5RUmIEN04yrFBxA3GPH9PTjITXJu+sJEGBR/RAuKa/eq+VlVYwtnKoQW60Qd5Ooeraq27jyrxR+M6b2/PIfBSNytiuowYo1dCLpjuGepMMohXvT9QdSj24Kd54GIVoFAtXPA304IGy3065fnrSRD6QHqfLoovO0aNZe6hm4qH18qktMr7disEjNpsk0Ljvvw40f6tw== X-YMail-OSG: RKPaNk4VM1mQbhvJc_Y3ZoBR7SM6UoCLC8LvKh7axw7TL2VZjxRo_oDqcq1IfB0 5njBH7AwM1O1_5VEu55XSnTDGCa4._ggh0Z6ka_m2iyTxFDBc6_YcucHwrHBTmkL2wB3aorkxES4 lYkSxuGMjRCkbZ6bBPJHwQfcgg4nNXehrGqbVE.fa2q2si81WVpAPD2nivFvJntwrmdHexP8fXs0 fh8YsMtKqIaFnBIPSB1LsILpUeS.xTkzOxjXTVmFODN5R.BczegGGMrCXj_LzbiDLtQIGRO9.1z5 S3oYAO31h7t4NhoJeJAXqNCe4khuFunCZmgqdl5FX9FuVSk7PBI.FttifHzFnN.2CfMYS.1QNF2K _ztzFdqDMO_eOjLPDKQ59DBc0In2HkHi_USvXycMh65fcH09Pnz6iPOLwuMzljOn_XD8OtBZ_kDs 0TITSgKYZNbzjDVSZGDbcUhHmc3LjkNjub1LHQOAXuLlG.PdEEKHjXBmIDrireP8G1SGlCFucpPU OuwYZxqyQ_CUee5Af4lPtLQC.b5r.J7ysZUaCcm6T2TKyt.sH Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 06:48:14 +0000 Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 06:48:09 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Perkins To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , Eliot Lear , Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever , Brian E Carpenter Cc: "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1139524215.2957770.1524293289640@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com> References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2957769_1486188964.1524293289637" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.11782 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:59.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/59.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 06:48:17 -0000 ------=_Part_2957769_1486188964.1524293289637 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Personally, I would reverse the criteria and give priority to less expensiv= e accomodation (to be defined) and busines-travel norm accomodation as as a= spirational. Is there no alternative to business-travel norms?=20 On Saturday, April 21, 2018, 2:19:29 PM GMT+11, Brian E Carpenter wrote: =20 =20 Glenn, On 21/04/2018 10:53, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote: .... >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The cost of guest room= s, meeting space, meeting food and beverage >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is affordable, wit= hin the norms of business travel,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and=20 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there are a= t least some inexpensive and safe >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 alternative=C2=A0 = accommodations within easy reach to the Facility >=20 > [GD]=C2=A0 This is too vague to properly evaluable against and is why the= business-travel norms was used.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 There are guidelines for busi= ness travel costs that are available that can guide evaluation of the crite= ria.=C2=A0 However, terms like "inexpensive" , "safe" are very subjective a= nd are not practical to evaluate against when testing the criteria in the d= ocument. The fact is that some people find the typical "official" IETF hotel rates exceed their budget. Try "substantially cheaper than the cheapest official hotel". I think IASA has enough common sense to know what "substantially" means. IASA surely already has to check the general safety of the area around the = venue, and in any case the cheaper hotels need to be reasonably close. We already = have text as follows: =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 The Facility environs include budget hotels within convenien= t =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 travel time, cost, and effort. Maybe that's enough. It excludes isolated out-of-town venues and the like. ....=20 >=20 > [GD] The document is criteria used by IASA to vet a venue against, not a = wish list to communicate to venues.=C2=A0 I do not wish to undermine aspira= tions, but this document is not the place to capture them.=C2=A0 It's used = as an evaluation list IASA vet a venue against to determine if the venue me= ets the needs of the IETF community to meet at.=C2=A0 Putting it in the doc= ument does not serve to communicate the aspirations to the venue as we are = not handing the document to the venues being evaluated. If the aspirations are clearly identified as such, I can't see any harm in including them. IASA will use the hard criteria for evaluation, and may use the aspirations for background. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian _______________________________________________ HR-rt mailing list HR-rt@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt =20 ------=_Part_2957769_1486188964.1524293289637 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Personally, I would revers= e the criteria and give priority to less expensive accomodation (to be defi= ned) and busines-travel norm accomodation as as aspirational.

Is the= re no alternative to business-travel norms?


=20
=20
On Saturday, April 21, 2018, 2:19:29 PM GMT+11, Bri= an E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:


Glenn,
=
On 21/04/2018 10:53, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) = wrote:
....
>  =             <t>The cost of guest rooms= , meeting space, meeting food and beverage
>&n= bsp;               is affordable, withi= n the norms of business travel,    and
>                  there a= re at least some inexpensive and safe
>  =               alternative  accommo= dations within easy reach to the Facility
>
> [GD]  This is too vague to properly eval= uable against and is why the business-travel norms was used.    T= here are guidelines for business travel costs that are available that can g= uide evaluation of the criteria.  However, terms like "inexpensive" ,= "safe" are very subjective and are not practical to evaluate against when = testing the criteria in the document.

<= div dir=3D"ltr">The fact is that some people find the typical "official" IE= TF hotel rates
exceed their budget. Try "substant= ially cheaper than the cheapest official
hotel". = I think IASA has enough common sense to know what "substantially"
=
means.

IASA surely already has to check the general safety of the area around th= e venue,
and in any case the cheaper hotels need = to be reasonably close. We already have
text as f= ollows:

  o = ; The Facility environs include budget hotels within convenient
      travel time, cost, and effort.

Maybe that's enough. It exclud= es isolated out-of-town venues and the like.

=
....
>
> [GD] The document is criteria used by IASA to vet a venue = against, not a wish list to communicate to venues.  I do not wish to u= ndermine aspirations, but this document is not the place to capture them.&n= bsp; It's used as an evaluation list IASA vet a venue against to determine = if the venue meets the needs of the IETF community to meet at.  Putti= ng it in the document does not serve to communicate the aspirations to the = venue as we are not handing the document to the venues being evaluated.
=

If the aspirations are cl= early identified as such, I can't see any harm in
including them. IASA will use the hard criteria for evaluation, and may us= e
the aspirations for background.

    Brian

_______________________________________= ________
HR-rt mailing list
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21 Apr 2018 08:30:27 +0000 Received: from [10.61.161.121] ([10.61.161.121]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3L8UQC5032114; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:30:26 GMT To: Brian E Carpenter , "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever Cc: "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwHsEEwECACUCGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheABQJTHtXCAhkBAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozBNoH/j0Mdnyg CgNNmI4DyL9mGfTJ/+XiTxWXMK4TTszwwn/tsXjyPQWjoO6nYqz5i96ItmSpkelSGVpzU+LK LQxSjFeUvKw23bp1rVecfGR+OENSE1m6KfFj3vtzQOZ2/FgK210MWnlYNNyAHX6Pf6hKInTP v6LbZiAQMCmf0aPvRbk/aPSNJAuIKrLrrCgAlwelrTavFsSwnKI3dhSG8DJ9+z/uiXDiHYra Ub3BKp5K/x71Zd8hUsWm2simnE/6HvZaZz7CC29JSZ/5gGtNB3OMNKLzLWUbQacF3IKxpW66 ZFYFYnlBV4jRnKlmb40YcEXWVJkkVC8g+/J9Qo6R8BdmSTXOwE0EUx7VRAEIALRZXth1u/3n FgY+G2FN0KEEik+2Xsk8JX9zr/eISa+Ol8a4U1orgxpyP2V7bQQDkDUEfs+Asagc6I8zrk3K xGln3pFFVfdM18uaEYwWvmE84Y12r7FwYdW62bA9X1Ttsp5Q1GI8XHdh0SQTF12pXYTwWW1P THYVIp7bGzM88cHqBW0xyRflu4j2nUrd9tWFd28SRxhj+MHQkQkbKFLloRty3lwdS8MCRPzX 9gUrkl+DxFHC7WrW3Vi4glI5YBlD0n2hSyDoP1GkKVT60gUGh7eJOnUBR8lzKm5wYqAtgq2m 79rKBylA40diRhbnTTeY+ytqMWFF5UXm97Jwxsezi7kAEQEAAcLAXwQYAQIACQUCUx7VRAIb DAAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6M5K5CADbunatgHsqHbR3KbpXxzralakEcdODGv/fbN6/EdKJeXrG9QKD lPxZTB9STw6+ANwESsr9uUMAxdDNKDeynjnQmFHxGdcdcXlnPZPThfseeUhUkbB/YKOfDIQA kKozNoKYj6Dcia+D/wvifIEW+GUUcO/6Qi8yK6PLJyM8C7vHEqmUGzX8gTCYOgAyOd4WZrC9 95CfB0yFIorw+MpK7MZTm5SbGPcYF9Gq9MzSqmaEw8U6YOElKYfnkcsCTLYyWaolhck+3/0R 9ISEWK5rUzqAuK40S4+Sn7yNycdCoqvQh4e3xSpzAu3aYZ8jKXQVV0X2G9Y+M1HMZuCqhPUO LTdF Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 10:30:24 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wODoIJqnBnQoiXb7Mg5lZnykZCLAmWcuQ" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:30:34 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --wODoIJqnBnQoiXb7Mg5lZnykZCLAmWcuQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="HC87Y9QRcJWMJ9AW7f6aFdqQkakgmN6K1"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Brian E Carpenter , "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever Cc: "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com> --HC87Y9QRcJWMJ9AW7f6aFdqQkakgmN6K1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ACF128FCE2A54C2EEF057E02" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ACF128FCE2A54C2EEF057E02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 21.04.18 05:19, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Glenn, > > On 21/04/2018 10:53, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote: > ... >> The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food = and beverage >> is affordable, within the norms of business travel, = and=20 >> there are at least some inexpensive and safe >> alternative accommodations within easy reach to the F= acility >> >> [GD] This is too vague to properly evaluable against and is why the b= usiness-travel norms was used. There are guidelines for business trave= l costs that are available that can guide evaluation of the criteria. H= owever, terms like "inexpensive" , "safe" are very subjective and are not= practical to evaluate against when testing the criteria in the document.= > The fact is that some people find the typical "official" IETF hotel rat= es > exceed their budget. Try "substantially cheaper than the cheapest offic= ial > hotel". I think IASA has enough common sense to know what "substantiall= y" > means. > > IASA surely already has to check the general safety of the area around = the venue, > and in any case the cheaper hotels need to be reasonably close. We alre= ady have > text as follows: > > o The Facility environs include budget hotels within convenient > travel time, cost, and effort. > > Maybe that's enough. It excludes isolated out-of-town venues and the li= ke. Taken together what I am hearing is... leave it alone. > > ...=20 >> [GD] The document is criteria used by IASA to vet a venue against, not= a wish list to communicate to venues. I do not wish to undermine aspira= tions, but this document is not the place to capture them. It's used as = an evaluation list IASA vet a venue against to determine if the venue mee= ts the needs of the IETF community to meet at. Putting it in the docume= nt does not serve to communicate the aspirations to the venue as we are n= ot handing the document to the venues being evaluated. > If the aspirations are clearly identified as such, I can't see any harm= in > including them. IASA will use the hard criteria for evaluation, and may= use > the aspirations for background. > > =20 IMHO the way to read Section 3.3 is precisely to list aspirational requirements.=C2=A0 That having been said, a reality check: my guess is t= hat AMSL and others will have a hard enough time evaluating against the previous sections.=C2=A0 3.3 probably needs to be viewed in two lights: * A bonus.=C2=A0 You get it when you get it, but you don't cry when you= don't. * Something the Secretariat should track. Eliot --------------ACF128FCE2A54C2EEF057E02 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On 21.04.18 05:19, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
Glenn,

On 21/04/2018 10:53, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote:
=2E..

              <t>The cost of guest rooms, me=
eting space, meeting food and beverage
                is affordable, within the norms of business travel,    an=
d=20
                 there are at least some inexpensive and safe
                alternative  accommodations within easy reach to the Faci=
lity

[GD]  This is too vague to properly evaluable against and is why the busi=
ness-travel norms was used.    There are guidelines for business travel c=
osts that are available that can guide evaluation of the criteria.   Howe=
ver, terms like "inexpensive" , "safe" are very subjective and are not pr=
actical to evaluate against when testing the criteria in the document.

The fact is that some people find the typical "official" IETF hotel rates=

exceed their budget. Try "substantially cheaper than the cheapest officia=
l
hotel". I think IASA has enough common sense to know what "substantially"=

means.

IASA surely already has to check the general safety of the area around th=
e venue,
and in any case the cheaper hotels need to be reasonably close. We alread=
y have
text as follows:

   o  The Facility environs include budget hotels within convenient
      travel time, cost, and effort.

Maybe that's enough. It excludes isolated out-of-town venues and the like=
=2E

Taken together what I am hearing is... leave it alone.


=2E..=20

[GD] The document is criteria used by IASA to vet a venue against, not a =
wish list to communicate to venues.  I do not wish to undermine aspiratio=
ns, but this document is not the place to capture them.  It's used as an =
evaluation list IASA vet a venue against to determine if the venue meets =
the needs of the IETF community to meet at.   Putting it in the document =
does not serve to communicate the aspirations to the venue as we are not =
handing the document to the venues being evaluated.

If the aspirations are clearly identified as such, I can't see any harm i=
n
including them. IASA will use the hard criteria for evaluation, and may u=
se
the aspirations for background.

 =20

IMHO the way to read Section 3.3 is precisely to list aspirational requirements.=C2=A0 That having been said, a reality check: my guess = is that AMSL and others will have a hard enough time evaluating against the previous sections.=C2=A0 3.3 probably needs to be viewed in two lights:
  • A bonus.=C2=A0 You get it when you get it, but you don't cry wh= en you don't.
  • Something the Secretariat should track.

Eliot

--------------ACF128FCE2A54C2EEF057E02-- --HC87Y9QRcJWMJ9AW7f6aFdqQkakgmN6K1-- --wODoIJqnBnQoiXb7Mg5lZnykZCLAmWcuQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAlra9qAACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejMskQf/Wim6VlqCY5t5ML9rwuvVhy+uh2iF8mBKC+Fh/2Yt3E0XwDdzHouGNlpH MPmFYCFEjqC1qIBYh1cDct8Rjhpniitlv/4nmi/UIenKuMqCY/OFkI2POuAaiII0 28sK3f5pHRf3GUEHqxz0lj3tQXPiK2O5yHCmG1zl9hKueJfhku01WdUnc18sbxRd qj6tggqnkQz46o0x+Jl3iuZJVtRo/kAlmhdAoZw+k315iHF3hbVp9+LFakhOThWt 1lpZdH0H/0Prb46A5k9duE8Cbswjo6DFUwzowWOonHAhxrZvSmodp8MNFhcE/8Tp ONT7s6vtbM+Xwhp1bvce6WyyOXSS6A== =bz0X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wODoIJqnBnQoiXb7Mg5lZnykZCLAmWcuQ-- From nobody Sat Apr 21 07:55:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3D812751F for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 07:55:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JPpwoUN3iCDm for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 07:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00176a04.pphosted.com (mx0b-00176a04.pphosted.com [67.231.157.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E68301274D2 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 07:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0048207.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0048207.ppops.net-00176a04. (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w3LErRKh001813 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 10:55:29 -0400 Received: from usaoamgip001.mail.tfayd.com ([173.213.212.135]) by m0048207.ppops.net-00176a04. with ESMTP id 2hg0jbjj1r-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 10:55:28 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO potemwp00039.mail.tfayd.com) ([10.40.78.204]) by usaoamgip001.mail.tfayd.com with ESMTP; 21 Apr 2018 10:55:27 -0400 Received: from potemwp00027.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.51) by potemwp00048.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.669.32; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:55:26 -0600 Received: from potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.53) by potemwp00027.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.51) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.669.32; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:55:25 -0600 Received: from potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com ([100.124.56.53]) by potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com ([100.124.56.53]) with mapi id 15.01.0669.032; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:55:25 -0600 From: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" To: Eliot Lear CC: Brian E Carpenter , Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever , "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process Thread-Index: AQHT1//g4eAqZ1xMV06MgAMp86mxTqQI+ceAgAFIjAD///HXgIAAv4mAgABW3gCAAAb+og== Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 14:55:25 +0000 Message-ID: <08288F5F-A28E-446A-A94D-72D96A77649F@nbcuni.com> References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-exclaimer-md-config: 47edc00f-f2d6-45ef-be83-8a353bd47e45 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_08288F5FA28E446AA94D72D96A77649Fnbcunicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-21_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=909 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804210164 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 14:55:32 -0000 --_000_08288F5FA28E446AA94D72D96A77649Fnbcunicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Commenting on Brian's response to my comments and to Eliot's response to Br= ian. On Apr 21, 2018, at 1:30 AM, Eliot Lear > wrote: IMHO the way to read Section 3.3 is precisely to list aspirational requirem= ents. That having been said, a reality check: my guess is that AMSL and ot= hers will have a hard enough time evaluating against the previous sections.= 3.3 probably needs to be viewed in two lights: * A bonus. You get it when you get it, but you don't cry when you don'= t. * Something the Secretariat should track. IMHO I disagree, what currently is in 3.3 is not aspiration, the items are = obtainable in many venues we already use. The items are in 3.3 not because= they are not obtainable, they are there because the WG did not find consen= sus to make either critical (3.1) or important (3.2). Items that are desirable, but not critical or important are not the same as= aspirational. Remember the sole purpose of section 3 is to vet and measure venues against= one another from the IETF needs for successful meetings. It is meant not t= o advocate to venues. In practice the list won't even likely be seen by an= yone in a venue. If we change it to be a list of aspirations the list would very quickly swe= ll to a very large list of proposals from the community, which I will not e= ven cite examples of so as not to encourage even more proposals to it, and = the results of the list would be mostly unmet. A long list where most of = the items on the list are commonly unmet is not useful in evaluating venues= . If we have a desire as a community to create statements to venues on what w= e would like see them develop, that's an idea the IESG could consider for a= different document the community could development, but this document is n= ot that document. I suggest we avoid the temptation to add aspirational items to section 3.3. Glenn --_000_08288F5FA28E446AA94D72D96A77649Fnbcunicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Commenting on Brian’s response to my comments and to Eliot’s re= sponse to Brian.

On Apr 21, 2018, at 1:30 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

IMHO the way to read Section 3.3 is precisely to list aspirational req= uirements.  That having been said, a reality check: my guess is that A= MSL and others will have a hard enough time evaluating against the previous= sections.  3.3 probably needs to be viewed in two lights:
  • A bonus.  You get it when you get it, but you don't cry when you d= on't.
  • Something the Secretariat should track.


IMHO I disagree, what currently is in 3.3 is not aspiration, the items= are obtainable in many venues we already use.  The items are in 3.3 n= ot because they are not obtainable, they are there because the WG did not f= ind consensus to make either critical (3.1) or important (3.2).

Items that are desirable, but not critical or important are not the sa= me as aspirational. 

Remember the sole purpose of section 3 is to vet and measure venues ag= ainst one another from the IETF needs for successful meetings. It is meant = not to advocate to venues.  In practice the list won’t even like= ly be seen by anyone in a venue.  

If we change it to be a list of aspirations the list would very quickl= y swell to a very large list of proposals from the community, which I will = not even cite examples of so as not to encourage even more proposals to it,= and the results of the list would be mostly unmet.   A long list where most of the items on the list ar= e commonly unmet is not useful in evaluating venues.  

If we have a desire as a community to create statements to venues on w= hat we would like see them develop, that’s an idea the IESG could con= sider for a different document the community could development, but this do= cument is not that document.

I suggest we avoid the temptation to add aspirational items to section= 3.3.


Glenn   


--_000_08288F5FA28E446AA94D72D96A77649Fnbcunicom_-- From nobody Sat Apr 21 08:00:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F801275AB for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 07:59:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UTqW3ErOdl-a for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 07:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00176a04.pphosted.com (mx0a-00176a04.pphosted.com [67.231.149.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BAA812751F for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 07:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0048276.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0048276.ppops.net-00176a04. (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w3LEw8ci024900 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 10:59:52 -0400 Received: from usaoamgip002.mail.tfayd.com ([173.213.212.136]) by m0048276.ppops.net-00176a04. with ESMTP id 2hfx7ukay5-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 10:59:52 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO potemwp00044.mail.tfayd.com) ([10.40.78.204]) by usaoamgip002.mail.tfayd.com with ESMTP; 21 Apr 2018 10:59:50 -0400 Received: from potemwp00028.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.52) by potemwp00048.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.669.32; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:59:49 -0600 Received: from potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.53) by potemwp00028.mail.tfayd.com (100.124.56.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.669.32; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:59:48 -0600 Received: from potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com ([100.124.56.53]) by potemwp00029.mail.tfayd.com ([100.124.56.53]) with mapi id 15.01.0669.032; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:59:48 -0600 From: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" To: Brian E Carpenter CC: Eliot Lear , Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever , "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process Thread-Index: AQHT1//g4eAqZ1xMV06MgAMp86mxTqQI+ceAgAFIjAD///HXgIAAv4mAgABfFmw= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 14:59:48 +0000 Message-ID: <37B593C3-85DA-48DC-9CC3-04648A32996C@nbcuni.com> References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com>, <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-exclaimer-md-config: 47edc00f-f2d6-45ef-be83-8a353bd47e45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-21_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=714 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804210165 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 14:59:55 -0000 Sent from my iPad > On Apr 20, 2018, at 8:19 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 > The fact is that some people find the typical "official" IETF hotel rates > exceed their budget. Try "substantially cheaper than the cheapest officia= l > hotel". I think IASA has enough common sense to know what "substantially" > means. >=20 > IASA surely already has to check the general safety of the area around th= e venue, > and in any case the cheaper hotels need to be reasonably close. We alread= y have > text as follows: >=20 > o The Facility environs include budget hotels within convenient > travel time, cost, and effort. >=20 > Maybe that's enough. It excludes isolated out-of-town venues and the like= . I agree that the current text communicates the concerns and intention suffi= ciently. Glenn = From nobody Sat Apr 21 15:02:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A0D112D885 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:02:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r8G_eoy5R7tt for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE56612D881 for ; 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21 Apr 2018 22:02:21 +0000 Received: from [10.61.96.89] (dhcp-10-61-96-89.cisco.com [10.61.96.89]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3LM2KkL014352; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:02:20 GMT To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever , "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com> <08288F5F-A28E-446A-A94D-72D96A77649F@nbcuni.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwHsEEwECACUCGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheABQJTHtXCAhkBAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozBNoH/j0Mdnyg CgNNmI4DyL9mGfTJ/+XiTxWXMK4TTszwwn/tsXjyPQWjoO6nYqz5i96ItmSpkelSGVpzU+LK LQxSjFeUvKw23bp1rVecfGR+OENSE1m6KfFj3vtzQOZ2/FgK210MWnlYNNyAHX6Pf6hKInTP v6LbZiAQMCmf0aPvRbk/aPSNJAuIKrLrrCgAlwelrTavFsSwnKI3dhSG8DJ9+z/uiXDiHYra Ub3BKp5K/x71Zd8hUsWm2simnE/6HvZaZz7CC29JSZ/5gGtNB3OMNKLzLWUbQacF3IKxpW66 ZFYFYnlBV4jRnKlmb40YcEXWVJkkVC8g+/J9Qo6R8BdmSTXOwE0EUx7VRAEIALRZXth1u/3n FgY+G2FN0KEEik+2Xsk8JX9zr/eISa+Ol8a4U1orgxpyP2V7bQQDkDUEfs+Asagc6I8zrk3K xGln3pFFVfdM18uaEYwWvmE84Y12r7FwYdW62bA9X1Ttsp5Q1GI8XHdh0SQTF12pXYTwWW1P THYVIp7bGzM88cHqBW0xyRflu4j2nUrd9tWFd28SRxhj+MHQkQkbKFLloRty3lwdS8MCRPzX 9gUrkl+DxFHC7WrW3Vi4glI5YBlD0n2hSyDoP1GkKVT60gUGh7eJOnUBR8lzKm5wYqAtgq2m 79rKBylA40diRhbnTTeY+ytqMWFF5UXm97Jwxsezi7kAEQEAAcLAXwQYAQIACQUCUx7VRAIb DAAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6M5K5CADbunatgHsqHbR3KbpXxzralakEcdODGv/fbN6/EdKJeXrG9QKD lPxZTB9STw6+ANwESsr9uUMAxdDNKDeynjnQmFHxGdcdcXlnPZPThfseeUhUkbB/YKOfDIQA kKozNoKYj6Dcia+D/wvifIEW+GUUcO/6Qi8yK6PLJyM8C7vHEqmUGzX8gTCYOgAyOd4WZrC9 95CfB0yFIorw+MpK7MZTm5SbGPcYF9Gq9MzSqmaEw8U6YOElKYfnkcsCTLYyWaolhck+3/0R 9ISEWK5rUzqAuK40S4+Sn7yNycdCoqvQh4e3xSpzAu3aYZ8jKXQVV0X2G9Y+M1HMZuCqhPUO LTdF Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 00:02:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <08288F5F-A28E-446A-A94D-72D96A77649F@nbcuni.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vCgD5OLu249ItbbYBNnHteCdxblXuXBrE" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:02:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --vCgD5OLu249ItbbYBNnHteCdxblXuXBrE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="eNBOGAGvtnyxJ4cXJptzyioh7J1Kli9X3"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever , "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> <12e7f4b8-969c-535c-23dc-d922d78b0bb6@gmail.com> <08288F5F-A28E-446A-A94D-72D96A77649F@nbcuni.com> In-Reply-To: <08288F5F-A28E-446A-A94D-72D96A77649F@nbcuni.com> --eNBOGAGvtnyxJ4cXJptzyioh7J1Kli9X3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B0D630FEF4B3142ADECE353E" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B0D630FEF4B3142ADECE353E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glenn, On 21.04.18 16:55, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote: > Commenting on Brian=E2=80=99s response to my comments and to Eliot=E2=80= =99s response > to Brian. > > On Apr 21, 2018, at 1:30 AM, Eliot Lear > wrote: > >> IMHO the way to read Section 3.3 is precisely to list aspirational >> requirements.=C2=A0 That having been said, a reality check: my guess i= s >> that AMSL and others will have a hard enough time evaluating against >> the previous sections.=C2=A0 3.3 probably needs to be viewed in two li= ghts: >> >> * A bonus.=C2=A0 You get it when you get it, but you don't cry when = you >> don't. >> * Something the Secretariat should track. >> > > IMHO I disagree, what currently is in 3.3 is not aspiration, the items > are obtainable in many venues we already use. =C2=A0The items are in 3.= 3 > not because they are not obtainable, they are there because the WG did > not find consensus to make either critical (3.1) or important (3.2). You're right and I was unclear: my point was really that if we are going to list any aspirational requirements they have to go into Section 3.3 lest we have no hotels from which to select, and that for those that gain WG consensus there is still value of listing them there.=C2=A0 As I wrote in the bullets, these are requirements that are likely to be gotten when you can get them, and they certainly are gotten from time to time.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also, the word "aspirational" isn't really good.=C2=A0 = Many of the requirements being discussed could certainly be met in some venues. Whether those are otherwise acceptable to the IETF is an entirely different matter. Eliot --------------B0D630FEF4B3142ADECE353E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Glenn,


On 21.04.18 16:55, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote:
Commenting on Brian=E2=80=99s response to my comments and to Eliot=E2= =80=99s response to Brian.

On Apr 21, 2018, at 1:30 AM, Eliot Lear <lea= r@cisco.com> wrote:

IMHO the way to read Section 3.3 is precisely to list aspirational requirements.=C2=A0 That having been said, a reality check: my guess is that AMSL and others will have a hard enough time evaluating against the previous sections.=C2=A0 3.3 probably needs to be viewed in two ligh= ts:
  • A bonus.=C2=A0 You get it when you get it, but you do= n't cry when you don't.
  • Something the Secretariat should track.

IMHO I disagree, what currently is in 3.3 is not aspiration, the items are obtainable in many venues we already use. =C2=A0The items are in 3.3 not because they are = not obtainable, they are there because the WG did not find consensus to make either critical (3.1) or important (3.2).

You're right and I was unclear: my point was really that if we are going to list any aspirational requirements they have to go into Section 3.3 lest we have no hotels from which to select, and that for those that gain WG consensus there is still value of listing them there.=C2=A0 As I wrote in the bullets, these are requirements t= hat are likely to be gotten when you can get them, and they certainly are gotten from time to time.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also, the word "aspirationa= l" isn't really good.=C2=A0 Many of the requirements being discussed could certainly be met in some venues. Whether those are otherwise acceptable to the IETF is an entirely different matter.

Eliot
--------------B0D630FEF4B3142ADECE353E-- --eNBOGAGvtnyxJ4cXJptzyioh7J1Kli9X3-- --vCgD5OLu249ItbbYBNnHteCdxblXuXBrE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAlrbtOwACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejOA/Af/f2lHA7/8Eph2VT1LVUBNiIl0uhtZ+Idl9b+sCeQcs4lNvktCPvNyR+dC XJSfuyj4MHGlPOCFLu8zAB63bE7DPLjN9GM7+Gz2Zukn+FM5CxSqTqa2bq2x70Tg /2GObK5qJBuvQnVzNV0+a8v7oySiXBOUutY4kxkInguWQ6WdGfbULJefURxrGBRN 3MuXS/dZZhvGPcgmi7GEQkdOGtP6tUeUY1idrjVR8aZGnI9diLbE2iNUz9NffAke fOPw90q3DDcLd0kZvd7Q991Gz4gUoeKvPxSMAZiaBmNnEMae35qbMNX6qSnrh1Ac ERMHqNMdtZ3K7XiYmg6/xfPNu5nQ8A== =UVdZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vCgD5OLu249ItbbYBNnHteCdxblXuXBrE-- From nobody Sun Apr 22 08:38:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2A5126C22 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 08:38:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_GREY=0.424] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=beatricemartini-it.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ywzmDuaZW2Jm for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 08:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x235.google.com (mail-it0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 157F9124D68 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 08:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x235.google.com with SMTP id p3-v6so7464654itc.0 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 08:38:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=beatricemartini-it.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9KdM0ecFE48VAeln0IxPZpD/WEBikMzd/QhaeAZH3Tg=; b=0wMmLdeWe0it+15EFUTYH3oWCeLPaG9hQUQF5EvQBxA5qBJJSvs8/ZvsLraBtOdCkk JQfNt9IFIUnvsKbgiZmhEdPQXL3Me1hO6QC16OSwBwczNNUZpR/MglHqt5DNrk65lLo3 mwqNKb0oI6jCvt6xeaZHuE18rY2/LgKb0ewniRSPZNCmfq8yD/JEkobK6pBgD2YryJF/ yxwYP1zZnYmi8q8LNGyTb5DKbnbkgbtjiaFayyZ0KI7iOqYcMUvkqrfG3Mw8Xgia8ehD yZ9ws95QHqQk+rr60g2STdgDLpG6n/5TDozWcN+mxx7RrCpqpsQk0TDIAlofsLQpUhJL 9Neg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9KdM0ecFE48VAeln0IxPZpD/WEBikMzd/QhaeAZH3Tg=; b=mIub0zWkCmsyqFHjz58KtFNhsKHHRCIqAl5GyM32HokdIaqjhDU8ZUpW71liUGxjan Uo2jStveqgvIdx/VQv+PMYiVSgEmdz+dvCfklcYcA2J26sbvsVtZLdLpucvPTCoHmMPq 1YzLJC33U88QUF1n/5PWwidnUJzVHiy3HsdiLkTlf7i6uSZeRhra9H4zD6/ZuWVy9ghs 3MvyoF76TIlJ8SN+XiOS+VJ8IRrwIdzURB19GiZ3MUXzCAFqk9DUNuVaJWKrnRIvCtvw wHSkDx5sc0T1wxWLIc1hrZi6YHcvGYgFdHaA30Rj+RWgGGpbzkL0xkYv78M4Xr9O462h wqZg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBc2sC4bJxi+2mvbObqDqwXQRxbtDigPb1Z6G0bvXwpOK+gnp8J Gay3JObGl68S/3tXHpfi6pIcSBEIhlBLCJ+zd63jBQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49W8tl3u/wAbURtrJB0RQcPdXAkafrxWpR84qYCd0T06mQT8LfpDaCWEmSqC9asVA6m++j7tXDufzyOwV3p/WE= X-Received: by 2002:a24:5491:: with SMTP id t139-v6mr10379846ita.89.1524411497992; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 08:38:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a02:840e:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 08:38:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7f7fced1-489b-94a8-170b-0038e330484f@digitaldissidents.org> References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <7f7fced1-489b-94a8-170b-0038e330484f@digitaldissidents.org> From: Beatrice Martini Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 17:38:16 +0200 Message-ID: To: Niels ten Oever Cc: Pete Resnick , hr-rt@irtf.org, draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d467c2056a71b553" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 15:38:27 -0000 --000000000000d467c2056a71b553 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, Replying to a couple of comments. I will copy the relevant excerpts from the text and follow up. >>>> 3.1) >>>> "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom >>>> with stalls on each floor." >>> >>> I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's gonna be two >>> hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be a >>> reasonable criteria. >> >> Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter into >> a contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make this >> mandatory at this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient >> number of Facilities meet this criterion already. Perhaps something >> along these lines could be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we'd >> want input that there are such Facilities available, lest the criteria >> simply be ignored. > 3.2.2 would be nice, also because asking hotels/venues for this also > would prompt them to include it in their renovation plans. Unless a country's legislation is specifically against this use of public facilities, this should not be too difficult to require/provide. A venue does not need to have restrooms already designated to be used as gender neutral facilities. It is sufficient for the venue management to allow the event organizers to set up one restroom of each floor as a gender neutral facility (e.g. if there are urinals, making them temporarily unavailable; having a gender neutral sign outside each repurposed facility). >>>> 3.2) >>>> "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding >>>> room and one family restroom." >> >> I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Venue", correct? >> Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to hear from >> IASA that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable number of >> Facilities. >> >I would be surprised if this would not be the case. I think it would be great to ask if this could be taken into consideration as a new additional requirement. >>>> 3.4) >> >> There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go in >> 3.3? Apologies for the multiple numbering systems :) There are the numbers from the draft, and then the numbers of our feedback list (which include the ")" at the end). The "3.4)" here refers to our list of feedback items. This is the fourth feedback item of the third pat of our list, which opens saying: "3) We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2. Basic Venue Criteria" I hope this clarifies. Thanks! Best, Beatrice On 20 April 2018 at 13:08, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi all, > > Thanks for the great responses! > > On 04/19/2018 11:08 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > > Hi Niels, > > > > Thanks for the extensive review. Much appreciated. Many of Michael's > > comments are spot on; I'll add my replies below (and trim a bit of the > > explanatory text to save space): > > > > On 19 Apr 2018, at 11:59, Michael Richardson wrote: > > > >> Niels ten Oever wrote: > >>> This is a review done within the framework of the Human Rights Review > >>> Team, is was done by Beatrice Martini and Niels ten Oever. The Human > >> > >> Thank you. > >> > >>> 1) > >>> Section: 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values > >> > >>> Text from draft: > >>> "Inclusiveness: We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote > >>> participation of anyone who wants to be involved." > >> > >>> We suggest an edit along these lines: > >>> "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of > >>> anyone who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the diversity > >>> of perspectives represented in the working sessions" > >> > >> I suggest you reword your suggestion to: > >> "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of > >> anyone who wants to be involved. Widespread participation > >> contributes to the diversity of perspectives represented in the > >> working sessions" > >> > >> the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the sentence can > >> otherwise be parsed > >> to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who > >> contribute to > >> increased diversity. > > > > I have to agree with Michael's suggestion. In addition to the possible > > ambiguity, there was pretty explicit consensus in the WG that the > > objective was to facilitate people who participants that want to > > participate, and explicitly not to use venue selection for purposes of > > outreach. Michael's reformulation makes that a bit clearer. Does that > > satisfy your concern? > > > > Yes! > > >>> 2) > >>> We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in regards to > >>> the affordability of participation. > >> > >> This is my intepretation. > >> > >>> Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, and > >>> that budget solutions should be available. That's great. > >> > >>> From Section 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values: > >>> "Economics: > >>> Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are > >>> underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded. In order > >>> to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek > >>> locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food and > >>> lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airports to the > >>> Venue. Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to > accommodation." > >> > >>> But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable. > >> > >>> From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria: > >>> "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage is > >>> affordable, within the norms of business travel." > >> > >>> "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self-funded budget > >>> travel". > >> > >> The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so > >> expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "business > >> travel". There are locations (resorts in really exotic locations) where > >> the nightly price of room is like $500/night. The intention is to rule > >> those out. > >> As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often afford to > >> stay at > >> the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a few > >> blocks. So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled. > > > > Michael's explanation is correct, but I take your point that "guest > > rooms" in the second bullet of 3.2.2 sounds like the combination of > > rooms in the IETF Hotels, Overflow Hotels, and other nearby local > > accommodations. Perhaps we can clarify. Let's see if Eliot has any > > thoughts. > > > >>> 3) > >>> We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2. > >>> Basic Venue Criteria. > >> > >>> 3.1) > >>> "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom > >>> with stalls on each floor." > >> > >> I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's gonna be two > >> hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be a > >> reasonable criteria. > > > > Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter into > > a contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make this > > mandatory at this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient > > number of Facilities meet this criterion already. Perhaps something > > along these lines could be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we'd > > want input that there are such Facilities available, lest the criteria > > simply be ignored. > > > > 3.2.2 would be nice, also because asking hotels/venues for this also > would prompt them to include it in their renovation plans. > > >> On the topic of being family friendly, the major thing we can do to > >> support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the nomcom > >> eligibility criteria. > > > > Agreed Michael. :-) > > One does not exclude the other imho. > > > > > On to the rest of your comments, Niels: > > > >>> 3.2) > >>> "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding > >>> room and one family restroom." > > > > I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Venue", correct? > > Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to hear from > > IASA that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable number of > > Facilities. > > > > I would be surprised if this would not be the case. > > >>> 3.3) > >>> "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those with > >>> respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during daytime and > >>> nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the scheduled > >>> activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." > > > > I have no particular concerns about adding this in section 3.3, barring > > objections. > > > >>> 3.4) > > > > There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go in > > 3.3? > > > > Yes, sry. > > >>> We believe that supporting parents with small children attending events > >>> is a great step forward towards inclusivity. > >>> > >>> We would like the document to address this aspect in regards to venue > >>> requirements. > >>> > >>> In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide > >>> information about the following: > >>> > >>> * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their kid(s) > >>> with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age not allowed > >>> to be in session rooms? > >>> > >>> * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like a > >>> play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professional? See > >>> further information about childcare at events at: > >>> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Childcare > >>> > >>> If the organization determines that children should not be allowed to > >>> access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be provided, > >>> it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge that the > >>> organization is aware of the limitation that this would constitute and > >>> that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. > > > > Whether children can be present in meeting rooms sounds like a policy > > issue beyond the question of venue selection, so I believe is out of > > scope for the document. > > > > As for whether having childcare services available at the Facility or > > Hotels should go in 3.3, I have no particular concerns about adding it, > > again, barring objections. > > > > Thanks > > >>> 4) > >>> We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other > >>> Considerations. > >>> > >>> Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says: > >>> "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made to > >>> allow access by people with disabilities." > >>> > >>> This is great! > >>> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation might > >>> create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session could > >>> be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another > participant > >>> with a severe allergy to dogs. > >>> > >>> It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideration on this > >>> type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it > could > >>> say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the organizing team > >>> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis. > >>> > >>> This statement should also include information about who / what team > can > >>> be contacted to ask for information in case of need. > > > > I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2 makes > > sense. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up with > > something. > > > >>> 5) > >>> Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons" > >>> > >>> Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations" > > > > Of course. > > > > Thanks again for the great comments. > > > > pr > > Our pleasure! > > Best, > > Niels > > -- > Niels ten Oever > Head of Digital > > Article 19 > www.article19.org > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > -- Beatrice Martini Twitter / Blog / Newsletter --000000000000d467c2056a71b553 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

Replying to a couple of commen= ts. I will copy the relevant excerpts from the text and follow up.

>>>> 3.1)
>>>> "All Meeting Venues= should have at least one gender neutral restroom
>>>> with = stalls on each floor."
>>>
>>> I'd like to= support adding this as aspirational, but it's gonna be two
>>= > hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be a>>> reasonable criteria.
>>=C2=A0
>> Given that the = 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter into
>> a contract if they are missing, I do= n't see how we can make this
>> mandatory at this point, unles= s IASA can tell us that a sufficient
>> number of Facilities meet = this criterion already. Perhaps something
>> along these lines cou= ld be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we'd
>> want inpu= t that there are such Facilities available, lest the criteria
>> s= imply be ignored.
=C2=A0
> 3.2.2 w= ould be nice, also because asking hotels/venues for this also
> would prompt the= m to include it in their renovation plans.
<= span class=3D"gmail-" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-s= erif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-v= ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;back= ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration= -color:initial">
Unless a country's legislation is specifically against this use o= f public facilities, this should not be too difficult to require/provide.

A venue does not need to have restrooms already designat= ed to be used as gender neutral facilities.

It is suffi= cient for the venue management to allow the event organizers to set up one = restroom of each floor as a gender neutral facility (e.g. if there are urin= als, making them temporarily unavailable; having a gender neutral sign outs= ide each repurposed facility).


=
>>>> 3.2= )
>>>> "The Meeting Ve= nue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding
>>>> room and one family restroom."
>= >=C2=A0
>> I presume you mean "Facility" here and= not "Meeting Venue", correct?
><= /span>> Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to h= ear from
>> IASA that this is goi= ng to be satisfiable by a reasonable number of
>> Facilities.
>>=C2=A0

<= span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:sm= all;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:norma= l;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;te= xt-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(= 255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;fl= oat:none;display:inline">>I would be surprised if this would not be the = case.

I think= it would be great to ask if this could be taken into consideration as a ne= w additional requirement.

= >>>> 3.4)
>>=C2=A0
>> There is n= o section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go in
>> 3= .3?

Apologies for the multiple numbering systems :)
There are the numbers from the draft, and then the numbers of our feedback= list (which include the ")" at the end).

The "3.4)" here refers to our list of feedback items. This is t= he fourth feedback item of the third pat of our list, which opens saying:

"3)=C2=A0We invite to consider the addition of a few item= s to Section 3.2.2.=C2=A0Basic Venu= e Criteria"

=
I hope this clarifies.

Thanks!

Best,
Beatrice

On 20 April 2018 at 13:08, Niels t= en Oever <lists@digitaldissidents.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi all,

Thanks for the great responses!

On 04/19/2018 11:08 PM, Pete Resnick wrote:
> Hi Niels,
>
> Thanks for the extensive review. Much appreciated. Many of Michael'= ;s
> comments are spot on; I'll add my replies below (and trim a bit of= the
> explanatory text to save space):
>
> On 19 Apr 2018, at 11:59, Michael Richardson wrote:
>
>> Niels ten Oever <lists@digitaldissidents.org> wrote:
>>> This is a review done within the framework of the Human Rights= Review
>>> Team, is was done by Beatrice Martini and Niels ten Oever. The= Human
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>> 1)
>>> Section: 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values
>>
>>> Text from draft:
>>> "Inclusiveness: We would like to facilitate the onsite or= remote
>>> participation of anyone who wants to be involved."
>>
>>> We suggest an edit along these lines:
>>> "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote partici= pation of
>>> anyone who wants to be involved and who may contribute to the = diversity
>>> of perspectives represented in the working sessions"
>>
>> I suggest you reword your suggestion to:
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remot= e participation of
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 anyone who wants to be involved.=C2=A0 Widespread par= ticipation
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 contributes to the diversity of perspectives represen= ted in the
>> working sessions"
>>
>> the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the s= entence can
>> otherwise be parsed
>> to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who >> contribute to
>> increased diversity.
>
> I have to agree with Michael's suggestion. In addition to the poss= ible
> ambiguity, there was pretty explicit consensus in the WG that the
> objective was to facilitate people who participants that want to
> participate, and explicitly not to use venue selection for purposes of=
> outreach. Michael's reformulation makes that a bit clearer. Does t= hat
> satisfy your concern?
>

Yes!

>>> 2)
>>> We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in re= gards to
>>> the affordability of participation.
>>
>> This is my intepretation.
>>
>>> Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-fun= ded, and
>>> that budget solutions should be available. That's great. >>
>>> From Section 2.=C2=A0 Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Va= lues:
>>> "Economics:
>>> Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are >>> underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded.= =C2=A0 In order
>>> to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore = seek
>>> locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food= and
>>> lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airport= s to the
>>> Venue.=C2=A0 Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to = accommodation."
>>
>>> But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable.
>>
>>> From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria:
>>> "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and= beverage is
>>> affordable, within the norms of business travel."
>>
>>> "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than &q= uot;self-funded budget
>>> travel".
>>
>> The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so=
>> expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "= business
>> travel".=C2=A0 There are locations (resorts in really exotic = locations) where
>> the nightly price of room is like $500/night.=C2=A0 The intention = is to rule
>> those out.
>> As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often affor= d to
>> stay at
>> the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a f= ew
>> blocks.=C2=A0 So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled= .
>
> Michael's explanation is correct, but I take your point that "= ;guest
> rooms" in the second bullet of 3.2.2 sounds like the combination = of
> rooms in the IETF Hotels, Overflow Hotels, and other nearby local
> accommodations. Perhaps we can clarify. Let's see if Eliot has any=
> thoughts.
>
>>> 3)
>>> We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3= .2.2.
>>> Basic Venue Criteria.
>>
>>> 3.1)
>>> "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutr= al restroom
>>> with stalls on each floor."
>>
>> I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's = gonna be two
>> hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be = a
>> reasonable criteria.
>
> Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter in= to
> a contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make this > mandatory at this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient
> number of Facilities meet this criterion already. Perhaps something > along these lines could be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we&#= 39;d
> want input that there are such Facilities available, lest the criteria=
> simply be ignored.
>

3.2.2 would be nice, also because asking hotels/venues for this= also
would prompt them to include it in their renovation plans.

>> On the topic of being family friendly,=C2=A0 the major thing we ca= n do to
>> support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the no= mcom
>> eligibility criteria.
>
> Agreed Michael. :-)

One does not exclude the other imho.

>
> On to the rest of your comments, Niels:
>
>>> 3.2)
>>> "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated inf= ant feeding
>>> room and one family restroom."
>
> I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Ven= ue", correct?
> Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to hear fr= om
> IASA that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable number of > Facilities.
>

I would be surprised if this would not be the case.

>>> 3.3)
>>> "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those = with
>>> respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during da= ytime and
>>> nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the = scheduled
>>> activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." >
> I have no particular concerns about adding this in section 3.3, barrin= g
> objections.
>
>>> 3.4)
>
> There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go i= n
> 3.3?
>

Yes, sry.

>>> We believe that supporting parents with small children attendi= ng events
>>> is a great step forward towards inclusivity.
>>>
>>> We would like the document to address this aspect in regards t= o venue
>>> requirements.
>>>
>>> In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide=
>>> information about the following:
>>>
>>> * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their = kid(s)
>>> with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age no= t allowed
>>> to be in session rooms?
>>>
>>> * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like = a
>>> play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professiona= l? See
>>> further information about childcare at events at:
>>> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/C= hildcare
>>>
>>> If the organization determines that children should not be all= owed to
>>> access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be = provided,
>>> it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge t= hat the
>>> organization is aware of the limitation that this would consti= tute and
>>> that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. >
> Whether children can be present in meeting rooms sounds like a policy<= br> > issue beyond the question of venue selection, so I believe is out of > scope for the document.
>
> As for whether having childcare services available at the Facility or<= br> > Hotels should go in 3.3, I have no particular concerns about adding it= ,
> again, barring objections.
>

Thanks

>>> 4)
>>> We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 = Other
>>> Considerations.
>>>
>>> Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says:
>>> "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations = can be made to
>>> allow access by people with disabilities."
>>>
>>> This is great!
>>> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommod= ation might
>>> create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same sessi= on could
>>> be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another p= articipant
>>> with a severe allergy to dogs.
>>>
>>> It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideratio= n on this
>>> type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example= , it could
>>> say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the org= anizing team
>>> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case = basis.
>>>
>>> This statement should also include information about who / wha= t team can
>>> be contacted to ask for information in case of need.
>
> I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2 make= s
> sense. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up with<= br> > something.
>
>>> 5)
>>> Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons&quo= t;
>>>
>>> Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations"
>
> Of course.
>
> Thanks again for the great comments.
>
> pr

Our pleasure!

Best,

Niels

--
Niels ten Oever
Head of Digital

Article 19
w= ww.article19.org

PGP fingerprint=C2=A0 =C2=A0 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9

_______________________________________________
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--
=
Beatrice Martini
--000000000000d467c2056a71b553-- From nobody Sun Apr 22 09:36:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890EE126D45 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:36:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_GREY=0.424] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=beatricemartini-it.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2NADcOC65_ra for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com (mail-io0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2E94126C0F for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id d11-v6so7877698iof.11 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:36:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=beatricemartini-it.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=M2vOuVYbF7xSb19GVTZk9WBZOFWTIJV/I+wN5I8zLa8=; b=TIR410pdcOXtjpsi13ErXwID/R8SI31fL8NqKNrMEJHfBIWUpRHxePGc018ifNhoXp zNg8Vc6SYRpumpvru7sXDXdU5SEU+pi75oDWpiveW6QfJZA4f7Jo/YFZ6crX3bQznBh9 oUiTystcAMlq2897W5zXWBEoknQZM7ANjSSjc9eKW5eW9EpCYUQrIbL3GjjuZFEaNPE9 cBqKDHb6W8g/AiJFonxm1oE3z/eH3E9bPblEf4hTeOyCigam44v2zIelbUCiISMcOOxp NBd7lw8BBtp7lJXzRNlSYasbRkt3LWs0yQlzf3wrgjCis4JPQa5A9uAERdijcb9Mi/eh 4YAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=M2vOuVYbF7xSb19GVTZk9WBZOFWTIJV/I+wN5I8zLa8=; b=aJNXXWLgIBiwaKnGpAdWv6hGOYeOEBA+3gjPTHaoq/zDJOy56ji7oRGmkRsyLyP/PZ GauMaYY3dYdnPu5ojkVT/cqSqDIXvDwgu8+ughDCWiXqyIh5pj/ycjV7BOXyP1H+8Lpc cADjT4XAbmG8CIeGOhkrGKolvZ2VWrzWgdSfakkJ/pwxkdmWaMqkvUDnhu4V6J0PJDLf 5q62FtrSN/pETwYbmabQD3O0Ru9keEVF8IzRmXKjK2AXfg0cVwxdwXxYIhPrRo5EuX0g Uv7YRHpg1YY1hppO+VqzV3pB/Qo2ndkBdHn3TpvSsWjfBwcFyQFZv7+xX/ru4Sj+8BQn WrIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCWsAY09js8SWKdMJdKnWnsBAOfhZtu11C7LNGtnERhFNsMtYXH Npcw6MpOQjxVbdMMBsjCEqZWtnY2wFdPqqvTSMqVGQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+YuK3PrtU9L5ZMg/QtMasYwSxWee0jiOzFL8JkQSQ2vrLAN9pSrOeJJNpCfNhtjVLZ02xvMNodLgnzo/7hARQ= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:591:: with SMTP id 139-v6mr3234426iof.282.1524414995828; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:36:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a02:840e:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:36:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> From: Beatrice Martini Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 18:36:35 +0200 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever , hr-rt@irtf.org, draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000512f46056a728631" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 16:36:40 -0000 --000000000000512f46056a728631 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Eliot, Thank you for your feedback. I will copy a few relevant excerpts from your message and follow up accordingly. > How about the following: > > The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and > beverage > is affordable, within the norms of business travel, and > there are at least some inexpensive and safe > alternative accommodations within easy reach to the Facility. I very much appreciate the note on alternative accommodations. About the smoke-free meeting spaces: > I cannot remember a time when there was smoking at > an IETF meeting, except perhaps in a bar. When talking with Niels about the importance of accessibility to all event spaces, it was mentioned that some IETF sessions are sometimes organized in bar spaces. This is the detail that prompted us to suggest a specific note about smoke-free spaces. The policy about smoke-free spaces is something that usually depends on the local legislation. For example: I live in Berlin, where most bars can allow smoking in the evening. It is not uncommon to attend a tech meetup hosted in a bar, and find out that smoke is allowed in the space, because of how the bar is managed. I have seen many people who were planning to join an event go back home disheartened because of this issue. So we thought it was worth specifying that the IETF organizers should make sure that all sessions are scheduled in spaces where no smoke is allowed, e.g. should double check with the venue management what are their own policies in this regard and if they can meet the IEFT requirements. > It is desirable that preferably the Facility, or failing that the IETF > Hotel(s), offer childcare services. Having organized international events in a few different countries, I can say that it is very rare to find hotels and event spaces that provide childcare services by default. What is common is for the organizers of an event to contact the venue and/or hotel and ask if they already have a list of trusted contacts to hire licensed professionals able to provide the service on request. The number of kids expected to attend would determine the suitable number of carers needed. The carer(s) would come to the venue and set it up with toys and/or any other specific supply needed to entertain the kids. If the event space/hotel does not already have reference contacts for this type of service, further information can usually be found through other local service providers. >>>> We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other >>>> Considerations. >>>> >>>> Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says: >>>> "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made to >>>> allow access by people with disabilities." >>>> >>>> This is great! >>>> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation might >>>> create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session could >>>> be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another >>>> participant >>>> with a severe allergy to dogs. >>>> >>>> It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideration on this >>>> type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it >>>> could >>>> say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the organizing team >>>> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis. >>>> >>>> This statement should also include information about who / what team >>>> can >>>> be contacted to ask for information in case of need. >> >> I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2 >> makes sense. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up >> with something. > > I am not clear on whether this text should go into this draft or into > the IASA's documentation. The question I have is this: is this a venue > selection criterion? If so, and if IASA is reasonably aware of the > conflict, then I think it goes in this document. It is not a criterion. It is a consideration that specify how the event organizers would manage conflicts that could possibly emerge from the following item of "Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria": "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made to allow access by people with disabilities." > I would suggest an > example would help us understand that. You mean like the example mentioned in our message? That one is a real life example, just happened at a work meeting I was running last week :) > If not, then I think what is > being asked for is a directive to IASA in this document to provide > attendees information about the above. As said, it is not a criterion. But it is an important information for: * The team who selects the venue, to be aware of how the accessibility criteria can sometime unfold, and prepare to address potential issues that might arise; * Participants, so that they know what to expect from the event space/organization. So, if not in this document's "Section 3.3 Other Considerations", a note on this type of conflict and how it will be addressed could be included in: * The documentation related to the event management on site; * Information provided to participants to inform them about venue accessibility. Thank you! Best, Beatrice On 20 April 2018 at 18:44, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Pete, Niels, and Michael, > > Please see below: > > > On 19.04.18 23:08, Pete Resnick wrote: > >> I suggest you reword your suggestion to: > >> "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remote participation of > >> anyone who wants to be involved. Widespread participation > >> contributes to the diversity of perspectives represented in the > >> working sessions" > >> > >> the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the sentence can > >> otherwise be parsed > >> to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who > >> contribute to > >> increased diversity. > > > > I have to agree with Michael's suggestion. In addition to the possible > > ambiguity, there was pretty explicit consensus in the WG that the > > objective was to facilitate people who participants that want to > > participate, and explicitly not to use venue selection for purposes of > > outreach. Michael's reformulation makes that a bit clearer. Does that > > satisfy your concern? > > Propose to include the second sentence based on Niels' concurrence. > > > > >>> 2) > >>> We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in regards to > >>> the affordability of participation. > >> > >> This is my intepretation. > >> > >>> Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-funded, and > >>> that budget solutions should be available. That's great. > >> > >>> From Section 2. Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Values: > >>> "Economics: > >>> Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are > >>> underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded. In order > >>> to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore seek > >>> locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food and > >>> lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airports to the > >>> Venue. Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to > >>> accommodation." > >> > >>> But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable. > >> > >>> From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria: > >>> "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and beverage is > >>> affordable, within the norms of business travel." > >> > >>> "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than "self-funded budget > >>> travel". > >> > >> The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so > >> expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "business > >> travel". There are locations (resorts in really exotic locations) where > >> the nightly price of room is like $500/night. The intention is to rule > >> those out. > >> As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often afford to > >> stay at > >> the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a few > >> blocks. So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled. > > > > Michael's explanation is correct, but I take your point that "guest > > rooms" in the second bullet of 3.2.2 sounds like the combination of > > rooms in the IETF Hotels, Overflow Hotels, and other nearby local > > accommodations. Perhaps we can clarify. Let's see if Eliot has any > > thoughts. > > How about the following: > > The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and > beverage > is affordable, within the norms of business travel, and > there are at least some inexpensive and safe > alternative accommodations within easy reach to the Facility. > > > > > >>> 3) > >>> We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3.2.2. > >>> Basic Venue Criteria. > >> > >>> 3.1) > >>> "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutral restroom > >>> with stalls on each floor." > >> > >> I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's gonna be two > >> hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be a > >> reasonable criteria. > > > > Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter > > into a contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make this > > mandatory at this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient > > number of Facilities meet this criterion already. Perhaps something > > along these lines could be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we'd > > want input that there are such Facilities available, lest the criteria > > simply be ignored. > > > >> On the topic of being family friendly, the major thing we can do to > >> support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the nomcom > >> eligibility criteria. > > > > Agreed Michael. :-) > > > > On to the rest of your comments, Niels: > > > >>> 3.2) > >>> "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated infant feeding > >>> room and one family restroom." > > > > I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Venue", correct? > > Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to hear > > from IASA that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable number > > of Facilities. > > > >>> 3.3) > >>> "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those with > >>> respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during daytime and > >>> nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the scheduled > >>> activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." > > > > I have no particular concerns about adding this in section 3.3, > > barring objections. > > > I would go further. I cannot remember a time when there was smoking at > an IETF meeting, except perhaps in a bar. Therefore, I would claim that > this is an oversight by the working group and an example of a > requirement that was well understood by the Secretariat long before > someone came up with the term "mtgvenue". > > Therefore, I would reformulate this as follows: > > "The Facility MUST be prohibit indoor smoking. IETF Hotels and > Overflow Hotels MUST offer "No Smoking" rooms > attendees. > > > > >>> 3.4) > > > > There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go > > in 3.3? > > > >>> We believe that supporting parents with small children attending events > >>> is a great step forward towards inclusivity. > >>> > >>> We would like the document to address this aspect in regards to venue > >>> requirements. > >>> > >>> In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide > >>> information about the following: > >>> > >>> * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their kid(s) > >>> with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age not allowed > >>> to be in session rooms? > >>> > >>> * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like a > >>> play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professional? See > >>> further information about childcare at events at: > >>> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Childcare > >>> > >>> If the organization determines that children should not be allowed to > >>> access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be provided, > >>> it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge that the > >>> organization is aware of the limitation that this would constitute and > >>> that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. > > > > Whether children can be present in meeting rooms sounds like a policy > > issue beyond the question of venue selection, so I believe is out of > > scope for the document. > > > > As for whether having childcare services available at the Facility or > > Hotels should go in 3.3, I have no particular concerns about adding > > it, again, barring objections. > > (still no editor hat) > > > My only question is whether these services are commonly offered. > > If so, > > > > It is desirable that preferably the Facility, or failing that the IETF > Hotel(s), offer childcare services. > > > > > > >>> 4) > >>> We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other > >>> Considerations. > >>> > >>> Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says: > >>> "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made to > >>> allow access by people with disabilities." > >>> > >>> This is great! > >>> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodation might > >>> create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same session could > >>> be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another > >>> participant > >>> with a severe allergy to dogs. > >>> > >>> It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideration on this > >>> type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it > >>> could > >>> say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the organizing team > >>> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis. > >>> > >>> This statement should also include information about who / what team > >>> can > >>> be contacted to ask for information in case of need. > > > > I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2 > > makes sense. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up > > with something. > > > > I am not clear on whether this text should go into this draft or into > the IASA's documentation. The question I have is this: is this a venue > selection criterion? If so, and if IASA is reasonably aware of the > conflict, then I think it goes in this document. I would suggest an > example would help us understand that. If not, then I think what is > being asked for is a directive to IASA in this document to provide > attendees information about the above. > > Is that about right? > > Eliot > > > > > > > >>> 5) > >>> Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons" > >>> > >>> Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations" > > > > Of course. > > > > Thanks again for the great comments. > > > > pr > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > > -- Beatrice Martini Twitter / Blog / Newsletter --000000000000512f46056a728631 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Eliot,

Thank you for your feedback.

I will copy a few relevant excerpt= s from your message and follow up accordingly.

>=C2=A0 How about the followin= g:
>
>=C2=A0 <t>The cost of guest ro= oms, meeting space, meeting food and
>=C2= =A0 beverage
>=C2=A0 is affordable, within the norms of business travel, and<= br style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:smal= l;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;= font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text= -transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(25= 5,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">>=C2=A0 there ar= e at least some inexpensive and safe
>=C2=A0 alternative accommodations within easy = reach to the Facility.

I very much a= ppreciate the note on alternative accommodations.

About the smoke-free meeting spaces:
> I cannot remember a time when there was smoking at
= > an IETF meeting, except perhaps in a bar.=C2= =A0

<= /span>
When talking with Niels about the importa= nce of accessibility to all event spaces, it was mentioned that some IETF s= essions are sometimes organized in bar spaces. This is the detail that prom= pted us to suggest a specific note about smoke-free spaces.

The policy about smoke-free spaces is something that usual= ly depends on the local legislation.

For example: I live in Berlin, where most bars can a= llow smoking in the evening. It is not uncommon to attend a tech meetup hos= ted in a bar, and find out that smoke is allowed in the space, because of h= ow the bar is managed. I have seen many people who were planning to join an= event go back home disheartened because of this issue.

So we thought it was worth specifying that the IETF organ= izers should make sure that all sessions are scheduled in spaces where no s= moke is allowed, e.g. should double check with the venue management what ar= e their own policies in this regard and if they can meet the IEFT requireme= nts.

> It = is desirable that preferably the Facility, or failing that the IETF<= br style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:smal= l;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;= font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text= -transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(25= 5,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">> Hotel(s), offer childcare services.
=
Having organized international events in a few different cou= ntries, I can say that it is very rare to find hotels and event spaces that= provide childcare services by default.

What is co= mmon is for the organizers of an event to contact the venue and/or hotel an= d ask if they already have a list of trusted contacts to hire licensed prof= essionals able to provide the service on request. The number of kids expect= ed to attend would determine the suitable number of carers needed. The care= r(s) would come to the venue and set it up with toys and/or any other speci= fic supply needed to entertain the kids.

If the ev= ent space/hotel does not already have reference contacts for this type of s= ervice, further information can usually be found through other local servic= e providers.

>>>> We invite to consider = the addition of one item to Section 3.3 Other
>>>> Co= nsiderations.
>>>>
>>>> Section= 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says:
>>>> "The Faci= lity is accessible or reasonable accommodations can be made to
&g= t;>>> allow access by people with disabilities."
&g= t;>>>
>>>> This is great!
>>= >> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommodatio= n might
>>>> create a barrier for someone else. For e= xample, the same session could
>>>> be attended by on= e participant with a guide dog, and another
>>>> part= icipant
>>>> with a severe allergy to dogs.
>>>>
>>>> It would be ideal if the docum= ent could mention a consideration on this
>>>> type o= f conflicting requirements that might occur. For example, it
>= >>> could
>>>> say that, in the full respect= of everyone's needs, the organizing team
>>>> wi= ll aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case basis.
>>>>
>>>> This statement should also in= clude information about who / what team
>>>> can
>>>> be contacted to ask for information in case of need.=
>>
>> I think adding a short informational= note to that bullet in 3.2.2
>> makes sense. I'll agai= n leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up
>> with someth= ing.

> <editor>

= > I am not clear on whether this text should go into this draft or into<= /div>
>=C2=A0the IASA&= #39;s documentation.=C2=A0 The question I have is=C2=A0 this: is this a ven= ue
>=C2=A0select= ion criterion?=C2=A0 If so, and if IASA is reasonably aware of the
>=C2=A0conflict, then I = think it goes in this document.

It is not a criter= ion. It is a consideration that specify how the event organizers would mana= ge conflicts that could possibly emerge from the following item of "Se= ction 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria": "The Facility is accessible or= reasonable accommodations can be made to allow access by people with disab= ilities."

>=C2= =A0I would suggest an
>=C2=A0 example would help us und= erstand that.

You mean like the example mentioned = in our message? That one is a real life example, just happened at a work me= eting I was running last week :)

>=C2=A0I= f not, then I think what is
>= =C2=A0being asked for is a directive to IASA in this document= to provide
>=C2=A0attendees information about the above.

As said,= it is not a criterion. But it is an important information for:
<= br>
* The team who selects the venue, to be aware of how the acce= ssibility criteria can sometime unfold, and prepare to address potential is= sues that might arise;
* Participants, so that they know what to = expect from the event space/organization.

So, = if not in this document's "Section 3.3 Other Considerations",= a note on this type of conflict and how it will be addressed could be incl= uded in:

* The documentation related to the event = management on site;
* Information provided to participants to inf= orm them about venue accessibility.

Thank you!

Best,
Beatrice

On 20 April 2018 at 18:44, El= iot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Pete, Niels, and Michael,

Please see below:


On 19.04.18 23:08, Pete Resnick wrote:
>> I suggest you reword your suggestion to:
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 "We would like to facilitate the onsite or remot= e participation of
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 anyone who wants to be involved.=C2=A0 Widespread par= ticipation
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 contributes to the diversity of perspectives represen= ted in the
>> working sessions"
>>
>> the problem with the "and" in the sentence is that the s= entence can
>> otherwise be parsed
>> to say that we only want to facilitate partition from those who >> contribute to
>> increased diversity.
>
> I have to agree with Michael's suggestion. In addition to the poss= ible
> ambiguity, there was pretty explicit consensus in the WG that the
> objective was to facilitate people who participants that want to
> participate, and explicitly not to use venue selection for purposes of=
> outreach. Michael's reformulation makes that a bit clearer. Does t= hat
> satisfy your concern?

Propose to include the second sentence based on Niels' concurren= ce.

>
>>> 2)
>>> We find that the current draft is not totally consistent in re= gards to
>>> the affordability of participation.
>>
>> This is my intepretation.
>>
>>> Initially, it acknowledges that many participants are self-fun= ded, and
>>> that budget solutions should be available. That's great. >>
>>> From Section 2.=C2=A0 Venue Selection Objectives/ 2.1. Core Va= lues:
>>> "Economics:
>>> Meeting attendees participate as individuals. While many are >>> underwritten by employers or sponsors, many are self-funded.= =C2=A0 In order
>>> to reduce participation costs and travel effort, we therefore = seek
>>> locations that provide convenient budget alternatives for food= and
>>> lodging, and which minimize travel segments from major airport= s to the
>>> Venue.=C2=A0 Within reason, budget should not be a barrier to<= br> >>> accommodation."
>>
>>> But then, in Section 3.2.2, things sounds less affordable.
>>
>>> From Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria:
>>> "The cost of guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and= beverage is
>>> affordable, within the norms of business travel."
>>
>>> "Business travel" has commonly a higher cost than &q= uot;self-funded budget
>>> travel".
>>
>> The intention is that the *venue* (primary hotel) should not be so=
>> expensive as to be prohibitively expensive to even those on "= business
>> travel".=C2=A0 There are locations (resorts in really exotic = locations) where
>> the nightly price of room is like $500/night.=C2=A0 The intention = is to rule
>> those out.
>> As a self-funded individual, I accept that I can't often affor= d to
>> stay at
>> the primary hotel, but I will find something acceptable within a f= ew
>> blocks.=C2=A0 So that's how section 2 and 3.2.2 are reconciled= .
>
> Michael's explanation is correct, but I take your point that "= ;guest
> rooms" in the second bullet of 3.2.2 sounds like the combination = of
> rooms in the IETF Hotels, Overflow Hotels, and other nearby local
> accommodations. Perhaps we can clarify. Let's see if Eliot has any=
> thoughts.

How about the following:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <t>The cost of= guest rooms, meeting space, meeting food and
beverage
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is affor= dable, within the norms of business travel,=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 there a= re at least some inexpensive and safe
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 alternat= ive=C2=A0 accommodations within easy reach to the Facility.


>
>>> 3)
>>> We invite to consider the addition of a few items to Section 3= .2.2.
>>> Basic Venue Criteria.
>>
>>> 3.1)
>>> "All Meeting Venues should have at least one gender neutr= al restroom
>>> with stalls on each floor."
>>
>> I'd like to support adding this as aspirational, but it's = gonna be two
>> hotel renovation cycles before it can be found often enough to be = a
>> reasonable criteria.
>
> Given that the 3.1 criteria are those for which IASA MUST NOT enter > into a contract if they are missing, I don't see how we can make t= his
> mandatory at this point, unless IASA can tell us that a sufficient
> number of Facilities meet this criterion already. Perhaps something > along these lines could be added to 3.2.2, but even there I think we&#= 39;d
> want input that there are such Facilities available, lest the criteria=
> simply be ignored.
>
>> On the topic of being family friendly,=C2=A0 the major thing we ca= n do to
>> support families is to outside of the mtgvenue, and is with the no= mcom
>> eligibility criteria.
>
> Agreed Michael. :-)
>
> On to the rest of your comments, Niels:
>
>>> 3.2)
>>> "The Meeting Venue should have at least one dedicated inf= ant feeding
>>> room and one family restroom."
>
> I presume you mean "Facility" here and not "Meeting Ven= ue", correct?
> Like the gender neutral restrooms, I think we probably want to hear > from IASA that this is going to be satisfiable by a reasonable number<= br> > of Facilities.
>
>>> 3.3)
>>> "The event should be accessible to non-smokers and those = with
>>> respiratory conditions. Therefore all meeting spaces during da= ytime and
>>> nighttime should make it possible to fully participate in the = scheduled
>>> activities without being exposed to second-hand smoke." >
> I have no particular concerns about adding this in section 3.3,
> barring objections.

</editor hat>
I would go further.=C2=A0 I cannot remember a time when there was smoking a= t
an IETF meeting, except perhaps in a bar.=C2=A0 Therefore, I would claim th= at
this is an oversight by the working group and an example of a
requirement that was well understood by the Secretariat long before
someone came up with the term "mtgvenue".

Therefore, I would reformulate this as follows:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The Facility MUST be prohibit indoor smoking.=C2=A0 IETF= Hotels and
Overflow Hotels MUST offer "No Smoking" rooms
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 attendees.

>
>>> 3.4)
>
> There is no section 3.4 in the document. Did you mean for this to go > in 3.3?
>
>>> We believe that supporting parents with small children attendi= ng events
>>> is a great step forward towards inclusivity.
>>>
>>> We would like the document to address this aspect in regards t= o venue
>>> requirements.
>>>
>>> In particular, it would be helpful for the document to provide=
>>> information about the following:
>>>
>>> * Can participants feel comfortable and welcome to have their = kid(s)
>>> with them at the event? If so, are kids under a certain age no= t allowed
>>> to be in session rooms?
>>>
>>> * Would the venue provide a childcare space and service, like = a
>>> play/activity room managed by a licensed childcare professiona= l? See
>>> further information about childcare at events at:
>>> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/C= hildcare
>>>
>>> If the organization determines that children should not be all= owed to
>>> access meetings, and/or no childcare space and service can be = provided,
>>> it would anyway be important for the document to acknowledge t= hat the
>>> organization is aware of the limitation that this would consti= tute and
>>> that this might hinder the participation of some attendees. >
> Whether children can be present in meeting rooms sounds like a policy<= br> > issue beyond the question of venue selection, so I believe is out of > scope for the document.
>
> As for whether having childcare services available at the Facility or<= br> > Hotels should go in 3.3, I have no particular concerns about adding > it, again, barring objections.

(still no editor hat)


My only question is whether these services are commonly offered.

If so,

<editor>

It is desirable that preferably the Facility, or failing that the IETF
Hotel(s), offer childcare services.



>
>>> 4)
>>> We invite to consider the addition of one item to Section 3.3 = Other
>>> Considerations.
>>>
>>> Section 3.2.2 Basic Venue Criteria says:
>>> "The Facility is accessible or reasonable accommodations = can be made to
>>> allow access by people with disabilities."
>>>
>>> This is great!
>>> At the same time, sometimes one person's required accommod= ation might
>>> create a barrier for someone else. For example, the same sessi= on could
>>> be attended by one participant with a guide dog, and another >>> participant
>>> with a severe allergy to dogs.
>>>
>>> It would be ideal if the document could mention a consideratio= n on this
>>> type of conflicting requirements that might occur. For example= , it
>>> could
>>> say that, in the full respect of everyone's needs, the org= anizing team
>>> will aim to find the most suitable solution on a case by case = basis.
>>>
>>> This statement should also include information about who / wha= t team
>>> can
>>> be contacted to ask for information in case of need.
>
> I think adding a short informational note to that bullet in 3.2.2
> makes sense. I'll again leave it to Eliot to see if he can come up=
> with something.

<editor>

I am not clear on whether this text should go into this draft or into
the IASA's documentation.=C2=A0 The question I have is=C2=A0 this: is t= his a venue
selection criterion?=C2=A0 If so, and if IASA is reasonably aware of the conflict, then I think it goes in this document.=C2=A0 I would suggest an example would help us understand that.=C2=A0 If not, then I think what is being asked for is a directive to IASA in this document to provide
attendees information about the above.

Is that about right?

Eliot




>
>>> 5)
>>> Correct typo in the title: "3.3. Other Consideraitons&quo= t;
>>>
>>> Edit: "3.3. Other Considerations"
>
> Of course.
>
> Thanks again for the great comments.
>
> pr
>



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--
Beatrice= Martini
--000000000000512f46056a728631-- From nobody Sun Apr 22 23:42:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hr-rt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71931271DF for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 23:42:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aOmmVGN3WeKZ for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 23:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A3D8126D05 for ; 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23 Apr 2018 06:42:16 +0000 Received: from [10.61.78.247] (ams3-vpn-dhcp3831.cisco.com [10.61.78.247]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3N6gFGd005727; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 06:42:15 GMT To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever Cc: "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwHsEEwECACUCGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheABQJTHtXCAhkBAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozBNoH/j0Mdnyg CgNNmI4DyL9mGfTJ/+XiTxWXMK4TTszwwn/tsXjyPQWjoO6nYqz5i96ItmSpkelSGVpzU+LK LQxSjFeUvKw23bp1rVecfGR+OENSE1m6KfFj3vtzQOZ2/FgK210MWnlYNNyAHX6Pf6hKInTP v6LbZiAQMCmf0aPvRbk/aPSNJAuIKrLrrCgAlwelrTavFsSwnKI3dhSG8DJ9+z/uiXDiHYra Ub3BKp5K/x71Zd8hUsWm2simnE/6HvZaZz7CC29JSZ/5gGtNB3OMNKLzLWUbQacF3IKxpW66 ZFYFYnlBV4jRnKlmb40YcEXWVJkkVC8g+/J9Qo6R8BdmSTXOwE0EUx7VRAEIALRZXth1u/3n FgY+G2FN0KEEik+2Xsk8JX9zr/eISa+Ol8a4U1orgxpyP2V7bQQDkDUEfs+Asagc6I8zrk3K xGln3pFFVfdM18uaEYwWvmE84Y12r7FwYdW62bA9X1Ttsp5Q1GI8XHdh0SQTF12pXYTwWW1P THYVIp7bGzM88cHqBW0xyRflu4j2nUrd9tWFd28SRxhj+MHQkQkbKFLloRty3lwdS8MCRPzX 9gUrkl+DxFHC7WrW3Vi4glI5YBlD0n2hSyDoP1GkKVT60gUGh7eJOnUBR8lzKm5wYqAtgq2m 79rKBylA40diRhbnTTeY+ytqMWFF5UXm97Jwxsezi7kAEQEAAcLAXwQYAQIACQUCUx7VRAIb DAAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6M5K5CADbunatgHsqHbR3KbpXxzralakEcdODGv/fbN6/EdKJeXrG9QKD lPxZTB9STw6+ANwESsr9uUMAxdDNKDeynjnQmFHxGdcdcXlnPZPThfseeUhUkbB/YKOfDIQA kKozNoKYj6Dcia+D/wvifIEW+GUUcO/6Qi8yK6PLJyM8C7vHEqmUGzX8gTCYOgAyOd4WZrC9 95CfB0yFIorw+MpK7MZTm5SbGPcYF9Gq9MzSqmaEw8U6YOElKYfnkcsCTLYyWaolhck+3/0R 9ISEWK5rUzqAuK40S4+Sn7yNycdCoqvQh4e3xSpzAu3aYZ8jKXQVV0X2G9Y+M1HMZuCqhPUO LTdF Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 08:42:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GuX8MYf6oeIJjqM0APWVBMhSzpXSwB70D" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [HT-rt] [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 06:42:20 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --GuX8MYf6oeIJjqM0APWVBMhSzpXSwB70D Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="HnAJl5AViaWSrEbMiV8Iyg4qsdXvFubIr"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , Pete Resnick , Niels ten Oever Cc: "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: HR-RT Review of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process References: <21952.1524157167@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <7B17FF2E-4393-4644-998B-16462F71A00F@qti.qualcomm.com> <22946590-de79-a2ab-9cf8-be9bcec50b73@cisco.com> <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> In-Reply-To: <2F97BE9D-2EC3-499E-BDD4-7B9A05DB77D4@nbcuni.com> --HnAJl5AViaWSrEbMiV8Iyg4qsdXvFubIr Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F6CA22587B6965DFE204AE58" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F6CA22587B6965DFE204AE58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Glenn, Just on no smoking... On 21.04.18 00:53, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote: > The policy part of it would be for the IESG to declare that IETF > meetings are smoke free. > FWIW I believe the community can make this statement. > =C2=A0 I'm not aware of this ever being explicitly stated, but the enti= re > time since I've attended IETF meetings everyone has treated it as an > unwritten policy. > Yup. > =C2=A0=C2=A0 Yet, still it wouldn't hurt for outside of this document t= hat being > declared to preemptively deal with the situation if it were to arise.=C2= =A0 > It seems to me we have the right vehicle in front of this for this purpose.=C2=A0 As I wrote, it's running code. > There may be regional rules that permit smoking in bars and casinos as > distinguished from restaurants, we do not seem to have had problems > locating venues that have smoking bans in place in restaurants and > interior spaces such as corridors. > Yup. > > =C2=A0 > > If there is no issue from the IESG in requiring a Smoke Free meeting > venue, then measurable criteria that we could have is perhaps the > following text: > > =C2=A0 > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The facility MUST prohibit smoking in meeting rooms,= interior > common spaces and corridors, indoor lobby bars which are open to > common spaces and corridors, and indoor restaurants.=C2=A0 IETF primary= and > secondary hotels MUST have blocks of rooms designated as "Non Smoking" > guest rooms. > I propose simply to include this text. Eliot --------------F6CA22587B6965DFE204AE58 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Glenn,

Just on no smoking...

</editor hat>

On 21.04.18 00:53, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote:

The policy part of it would be for the IESG to declare that IETF meetings are smoke free.


FWIW I believe the community can make this statement.

=C2=A0 I'm = not aware of this ever being explicitly stated, but the entire time since I've attended IETF meetings everyone has treated it as an unwritten policy.


Yup.

=C2=A0=C2=A0= Yet, still it wouldn't hurt for outside of this document that being declared to preemptively deal with the situation if it were to arise.=C2=A0


It seems to me we have the right vehicle in front of this for this purpose.=C2=A0 As I wrote, it's running code.


There may b= e regional rules that permit smoking in bars and casinos as distinguished from restaurants, we do not seem to have had problems locating venues that have smoking bans in place in restaurants and interior spaces such as corridors.


Yup.

=

=C2=A0=

If there is= no issue from the IESG in requiring a Smoke Free meeting venue, then measurable criteria that we could have is perhaps the following text:

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 The facility MUST prohibit smoking in meeting rooms, interior common spaces and corridors, indoor lobby bars which are open to common spaces and corridors, and indoor restaurants.=C2=A0 IETF primary and secondary hotels MUST hav= e blocks of rooms designated as "Non Smoking" guest rooms.


I propose simply to include this text.

Eliot
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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 938925967a2432a0d8c7279c30be63be Archived-At: Subject: [HT-rt] drafts for analysis X-BeenThere: hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Review Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:29:20 -0000 Hi all, After the excellent work done by Beatric I was looking at the last call list: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=&sort=&rfcs=on&activedrafts=on&by=state&state=15&substate= And the publication request list: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=&sort=&rfcs=on&activedrafts=on&by=state&state=16&substate= These drafts might be interesting for review: Especially for Alp and Shivan https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security/ This might be interesting (but deadline April 30) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-actn-framework/ This is also still open: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode/ has just a new version out. We wrote about this earlier: https://www.article19.org/resources/corporate-actors-must-not-facilitate-human-rights-violations-through-new-chinese-rules/ Mallory also had some ideas about analyzing RFCs, and I think Gurshabad might have some ideas abt that as well. Any takers? Or shall we simply set up a Review Rotation schema like: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/irtf/wiki/IRSGReviewLog Cheers, Niels