From nobody Mon Jul 4 03:24:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF80712B059 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 03:24:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.778 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.778 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h1gKBu-F6jtD for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 03:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E27AC12B022 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 03:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76C4820C0B9 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 10:24:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 667A21D52EE for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 10:24:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [145.18.167.137] (wcw-staff-145-18-167-137.wireless.uva.nl [145.18.167.137]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 481B31C875D for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 10:24:28 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2016 12:24:27 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: hrpc@irtf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Message-Id: <20160704102428.481B31C875D@mail.article19.io> Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Human Rights online at Human Rights Council X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2016 10:24:33 -0000 UHJvYmFibHkgb2YgaW50ZXJlc3Q6CgpTaWduaWZpY2FudCByZXNvbHV0aW9uIHJlYWZmaXJtaW5n IGh1bWFuIHJpZ2h0cyBvbmxpbmUgYWRvcHRlZCBhdCB0aGUgVU4gSHVtYW4gUmlnaHRzIENvdW5j aWwuIAoKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYXJ0aWNsZTE5Lm9yZy9yZXNvdXJjZXMucGhwL3Jlc291cmNlLzM4 NDI5L2VuL3VuaHJjOi1zaWduaWZpY2FudC1yZXNvbHV0aW9uLXJlYWZmaXJtaW5nLWh1bWFuLXJp Z2h0cy1vbmxpbmUtYWRvcHRlZAoKQmVzdCwKCk5pZWxz From nobody Mon Jul 4 14:28:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 777F412B036 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 14:28:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DVeZOpYFoVaq for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 14:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D90EE12B006 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 14:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86DDD7858C0E; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 21:28:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7498D7858C12; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 21:28:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.178.25] (62-251-43-97.ip.xs4all.nl [62.251.43.97]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6216A7858C0E; Mon, 4 Jul 2016 21:28:12 +0000 (UTC) To: Scott Craig , hrpc@irtf.org, Joe Hall References: <575EBFFA.4070009@article19.org> From: Niels ten Oever X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <9d28fb11-15c1-8fe6-c4e3-16ef295217bf@article19.org> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 23:28:11 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pj3mrBH6PxXP8Ag1iVH1ihav3ABJXjh2f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] way forward draft-tenoever-hrpc-research - reviewers needed X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2016 21:28:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --pj3mrBH6PxXP8Ag1iVH1ihav3ABJXjh2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Scott, I have been thinking a lot about your suggestions. I think the test you have been proposing might not be applicable for a technical environment (but am happy to be proven wrong). I do not think we can exhaustively list and map the risks that protocols generate in relation to rights. I would also like to add that the test you propose is neither part nor a requirement in for instance security considerations: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2223#section-9 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552 Similar to the guidelines on security considerations RFC3552 and the guidelines on privacy considerations RFC6973 we've proposed vectors of analysis and provided examples. That these vectors might not be exhaustive and always context dependent are for me no arguments to hold the draft back. Furthermore I think the guidelines provide an input for discussion of drafts during drafting phase, but also when they're discussed for review in other WGs or later on in the IESG. Decisions and reviews are documented (and arguments are provided), so I am not sure whether one can say the standpoints are arbitrary, nor that the judgments are not replicable or cannot be contested (there are processes for that, that can get weighed by the appropriate groups). It is not like these guidelines for considerations are applied blindly. If I understood you incorrectly, could you perhaps illustrate the test a bit more in the specific case of security considerations? Best, Niels Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 On 06/27/2016 12:57 PM, Scott Craig wrote: > Hi Niels,=20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve attached a document with comments on the pre-adoption draf= t.=20 >=20 > I am still hoping that someone can address the concerns I raised on the= > list about the methodology. I refer specifically to the method by which= > an architectural feature has been (or can be) claimed to 'shape the > enabling environment' for a right.=20 >=20 > Raised here https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00401= =2Ehtml > here https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00408.html > and here https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00417.ht= ml >=20 > Though I agree with some of your conclusions, I do not think the > justification for the claims you have made withstands scrutiny. As a > result it=E2=80=99s presently difficult to see how an engineer could ju= stify > giving additional attention to the features highlighted in the draft. >=20 > To re-state what I said previously: >=20 > I think the method you have described (quoted below)*_is great for > identifying _**/_candidate features_/*. But my concern is that it=E2=80= =99s > insufficient to determine that a candidate feature is an enabling (or > restricting) feature.=20 >=20 > /" It is on the basis of these various case studies, elaborate > discussion on the mailinglist and at various IETF conferences that > *we came to determine whether an architectural feature* is a > 'crucial ingredient for enabling the ability to exercise specific > rights=E2=80=99. "/ >=20 > If no explicit test is applied to the candidate features > after identification, I think this causes three problems: >=20 > (1) *Judgements* *are arbitrary * >=20 > i.e there is no basis on which to argue that the threshold for inclusio= n > was the same for one technical concept as for another.=20 >=20 > (2) *Judgements are not replicable. * >=20 > i.e it is not possible to claim that different authors would not have > come to significantly different conclusions than you have. >=20 > (3) *Judgements cannot be contested * >=20 > e.g if someone were to disagree with your contention that > internationalisation has a bearing on the right to political > participation, on what basis would we adjudicate who is correct? >=20 > Scott >=20 > =20 >=20 > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Niels ten Oever > wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > To create a next RG version of the draft-tenoever-hrpc-research ID,= it's > probably good to draft a clear way forward. >=20 > We have had some really good comments and reviews during and before= the > call for adoption, thanks for that, but if we want to bring this fu= rther > we will need some more reviews. >=20 > Two people (Shane and Giovanni) are currently testing the guideline= s for > human rights considerations on two actual drafts, which we hope can= be > presented in Berlin. >=20 > Avri mentioned she had elaborate feedback on the current draft and > Collin Anderson mentioned he would do a review of the draft, which = would > both be greatly appeciated. >=20 > So now we're looking for a third and potentially fourth reviewer wh= o > could review the draft in within the coming two weeks so we can cre= ate a > new version ahead of IETF96 in Berlin. >=20 > What we're looking for is a review of the whole document with more = or > less coherent notes, suggestions and/or criticisms with which we co= uld > improve the document. >=20 > Looking forward to hear from you! >=20 > Best, >=20 > Niels >=20 >=20 > -- > Niels ten Oever > Head of Digital >=20 > Article 19 > www.article19.org >=20 > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org * > *E:* scraig@cdt.org | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 > | **@scottdavidcraig >=20 > */ > /* >=20 --pj3mrBH6PxXP8Ag1iVH1ihav3ABJXjh2f Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXetTrAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjppVAIAKTy1Bvb4ko1/+5ni9mSAzge 1gFD52xMcppzmQSd5W4IZWATQhHMetG+fV9xwiH3TzZZrG+EzfKTNT0rJDuVHiP3 iOKxajEiVfYNTL7rs/o3DFDcb8cf5NpyEtSIulZtoWGr+60jLcMMvHA7LpZMLt5C j9VhwxU21Ki2CpZcxsQ/ICubBngwQMWQERmD4WYIDXbwWK6zPfLO1irWf1Y4iCHO jAhuuQ8h3LTD5KgkyKbWw++I7KYZxCzu13B99wb0lNIMuzubJuUYfIwUDFUEkrMv pJeKwhRrn6+bkO+gw92LX4Gj5QGIZ13PpiEgB/mRuXIr837Krt1P/2lXox/frtM= =eXzm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pj3mrBH6PxXP8Ag1iVH1ihav3ABJXjh2f-- From nobody Wed Jul 6 08:41:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87C212D599 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 08:41:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O0ocrUbf5cR6 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 08:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x232.google.com (mail-oi0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B21CB12D616 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 08:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x232.google.com with SMTP id f189so275931276oig.3 for ; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 08:40:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jCm3n8Mnf88pgXFTTRj6LmXVddUTv1B6Am2h1Zeo6D0=; b=gpKWddoviIjdvXuS3ahkdCrCIP98iovZrurOdGv9M6a3C6BdYjjVZJsaRghQDUMYT2 Rj6SOeY9o5HjH/lOrY60VLqoQbpDhA2mFha7IwdYrbK8IV9AMtb72lVaM/QYXyFEiMaD D7XSlFzcNipPgLGexLNmlseYBkffHv4P8YxwU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jCm3n8Mnf88pgXFTTRj6LmXVddUTv1B6Am2h1Zeo6D0=; b=XArIPGq1Wn8WjxBh/qP8LuygU1XQ529bDo8m6TXD7XayxgI699Y/16yWtZ0gpvY+4X aTpkoLOF9+RULXnZRAqMn0bvcUBDx1gd+BTsR6Px3JsjA776MiOrNzijnxp4eZIeqMAj OvyDeBrdfJUSvw9Yo5hX8OyIJjIOwi6iqg23lAWtrcfMPQ5OuoB405weBdWmQahOyYuG PJBptrdYfH2vjnqH6w2A6hwqMNYy1CJpK4sccyF+vcfBzb3PQCCQ4fJrYhSLNE4k5JYl PcFvqOdHuHz9R1ez5tWysSXD8xVJ5caP8eVWOJNM/Q/3tqMluc4sH73jUdnWpyN9yZpX Jf1A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKwbBPf6R++p03p0cRU1G+ODIhCRS12prtMDrQlxVV2+x3NE/WWBCeNMXD6LdipQSf1bWZDN5TmA/FmdHMz X-Received: by 10.202.194.85 with SMTP id s82mr13157296oif.102.1467819648911; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.175.65 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9d28fb11-15c1-8fe6-c4e3-16ef295217bf@article19.org> References: <575EBFFA.4070009@article19.org> <9d28fb11-15c1-8fe6-c4e3-16ef295217bf@article19.org> From: Scott Craig Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:40:48 +0100 Message-ID: To: Niels ten Oever Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113db098c4a4380536f964c8 Archived-At: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, Joe Hall Subject: Re: [hrpc] way forward draft-tenoever-hrpc-research - reviewers needed X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 15:41:20 -0000 --001a113db098c4a4380536f964c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Niels, Thanks for this. The fundamental issue I have is that the method you have used to claim links between features and rights is a black box. There is no discernible basis for the links other than your own judgement. I don=E2=80=99t in any way doubt the quality of your judgement. But I strug= gle to see how it provides sufficient grounds on which to expect every IETF engineer to pay additional attention to the features in the document. The idea of a test was simply a way to add some rigour to these claims in order to give them some means of defence if they are challenged and some means of adjudication if they are disputed. Right now you are literally just saying that you talked to some people and then you decided which things were linked. " It is on the basis of these various case studies, elaborate discussion on > the mailing list and at various IETF conferences that we came to determin= e > whether an architectural feature is a 'crucial ingredient for enabling th= e > ability to exercise specific rights=E2=80=99. " Simply saying *=E2=80=98We came to determine=E2=80=99* as the method for de= termining the central claims made in the document just isn=E2=80=99t good enough. You can describe this process as =E2=80=98proposing vectors of analysis=E2=80=99 i= f you want but this is no more than an obfuscated synonym for authors judgement. If I was an aircraft engineer and my colleagues informed me that the contents of the pre-flight check had been determined by people who had talked to aircraft engineers doing doing =E2=80=98vectors of analysis=E2=80= =99 and that no criteria had then been used to evaluate and prioritise what we were being asked to check then I would be terrified for the passengers. This exercise is no less serious and demands no less rigour. If the point of the document is to ask engineers to give greater attention to the architectural features it highlights then a black box judgement cannot be a solid enough basis on which to make that request. It would be great to know whether others think the current method is sufficient. Scott Craig On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:28 PM, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi Scott, > > I have been thinking a lot about your suggestions. I think the test you > have been proposing might not be applicable for a technical environment > (but am happy to be proven wrong). > > I do not think we can exhaustively list and map the risks that protocols > generate in relation to rights. > > I would also like to add that the test you propose is neither part nor a > requirement in for instance security considerations: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2223#section-9 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552 > > Similar to the guidelines on security considerations RFC3552 and the > guidelines on privacy considerations RFC6973 we've proposed vectors of > analysis and provided examples. > > That these vectors might not be exhaustive and always context dependent > are for me no arguments to hold the draft back. > > Furthermore I think the guidelines provide an input for discussion of > drafts during drafting phase, but also when they're discussed for review > in other WGs or later on in the IESG. Decisions and reviews are > documented (and arguments are provided), so I am not sure whether one > can say the standpoints are arbitrary, nor that the judgments are not > replicable or cannot be contested (there are processes for that, that > can get weighed by the appropriate groups). It is not like these > guidelines for considerations are applied blindly. > > If I understood you incorrectly, could you perhaps illustrate the test a > bit more in the specific case of security considerations? > > Best, > > Niels > > > > Niels ten Oever > Head of Digital > > Article 19 > www.article19.org > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > On 06/27/2016 12:57 PM, Scott Craig wrote: > > Hi Niels, > > > > I=E2=80=99ve attached a document with comments on the pre-adoption draf= t. > > > > I am still hoping that someone can address the concerns I raised on the > > list about the methodology. I refer specifically to the method by which > > an architectural feature has been (or can be) claimed to 'shape the > > enabling environment' for a right. > > > > Raised here > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00401.html > > here https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00408.html > > and here > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00417.html > > > > Though I agree with some of your conclusions, I do not think the > > justification for the claims you have made withstands scrutiny. As a > > result it=E2=80=99s presently difficult to see how an engineer could ju= stify > > giving additional attention to the features highlighted in the draft. > > > > To re-state what I said previously: > > > > I think the method you have described (quoted below)*_is great for > > identifying _**/_candidate features_/*. But my concern is that it=E2=80= =99s > > insufficient to determine that a candidate feature is an enabling (or > > restricting) feature. > > > > /" It is on the basis of these various case studies, elaborate > > discussion on the mailinglist and at various IETF conferences that > > *we came to determine whether an architectural feature* is a > > 'crucial ingredient for enabling the ability to exercise specific > > rights=E2=80=99. "/ > > > > If no explicit test is applied to the candidate features > > after identification, I think this causes three problems: > > > > (1) *Judgements* *are arbitrary * > > > > i.e there is no basis on which to argue that the threshold for inclusio= n > > was the same for one technical concept as for another. > > > > (2) *Judgements are not replicable. * > > > > i.e it is not possible to claim that different authors would not have > > come to significantly different conclusions than you have. > > > > (3) *Judgements cannot be contested * > > > > e.g if someone were to disagree with your contention that > > internationalisation has a bearing on the right to political > > participation, on what basis would we adjudicate who is correct? > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Niels ten Oever > > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > To create a next RG version of the draft-tenoever-hrpc-research ID, > it's > > probably good to draft a clear way forward. > > > > We have had some really good comments and reviews during and before > the > > call for adoption, thanks for that, but if we want to bring this > further > > we will need some more reviews. > > > > Two people (Shane and Giovanni) are currently testing the guideline= s > for > > human rights considerations on two actual drafts, which we hope can > be > > presented in Berlin. > > > > Avri mentioned she had elaborate feedback on the current draft and > > Collin Anderson mentioned he would do a review of the draft, which > would > > both be greatly appeciated. > > > > So now we're looking for a third and potentially fourth reviewer wh= o > > could review the draft in within the coming two weeks so we can > create a > > new version ahead of IETF96 in Berlin. > > > > What we're looking for is a review of the whole document with more = or > > less coherent notes, suggestions and/or criticisms with which we > could > > improve the document. > > > > Looking forward to hear from you! > > > > Best, > > > > Niels > > > > > > -- > > Niels ten Oever > > Head of Digital > > > > Article 19 > > www.article19.org > > > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org * > > *E:* scraig@cdt.org | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 > > | **@scottdavidcraig > > > > */ > > /* > > > > --=20 *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org * *E:* scraig@cdt.org | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 | @scottdavidcraig --001a113db098c4a4380536f964c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Niels,

Thanks for this.<= /div>

The fundamental issue I have is that the method yo= u have used to claim links between features and rights is a black box. Ther= e is no discernible basis for the links other than your own judgement.

I don=E2=80=99t in any way doubt the quality of your j= udgement. But I struggle to see how it provides sufficient grounds on which= to expect every IETF engineer to pay additional attention to the features = in the document.

The idea of a test was simply a w= ay to add some rigour to these claims in order to give them some means of d= efence if they are challenged and some means of adjudication if they are di= sputed.=C2=A0 Right now you are literally just saying that you talked to so= me people and then you decided which things were linked.

" It is on the basis of these various case studies,= elaborate discussion on the mailing list and at various IETF conferences t= hat we came to determine whether an architectural feature is a 'crucial= ingredient for enabling the ability to exercise specific rights=E2=80=99. = "

Simply saying =E2=80=98We came to= determine=E2=80=99 as the method for determining the central claims ma= de in the document just isn=E2=80=99t good enough. You can describe this pr= ocess as =C2=A0=E2=80=98proposing vectors of analysis=E2=80=99 if you want = but this is no more than an obfuscated synonym for authors judgement.
=

If I was an aircraft engineer and my colleagues informe= d me that the contents of the pre-flight check had been determined by peopl= e who had talked to aircraft engineers doing doing =E2=80=98vectors of anal= ysis=E2=80=99 and that no criteria had then been used to evaluate and prior= itise what we were being asked to check then I would be terrified for the p= assengers. This exercise is no less serious and demands no less rigour.

If the point of the document is to ask engineers to g= ive greater attention to the architectural features it highlights then a bl= ack box judgement cannot be a solid enough basis on which to make that requ= est.

It would be great to know whether others thin= k the current method is sufficient.

Scott Craig


On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:28 PM, Niels ten Oever &= lt;niels@article19= .org> wrote:
Hi Scott,

I have been thinking a lot about your suggestions. I think the test you
have been proposing might not be applicable for a technical environment
(but am happy to be proven wrong).

I do not think we can exhaustively list and map the risks that protocols generate in relation to rights.

I would also like to add that the test you propose is neither part nor a requirement in for instance security considerations:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2223#section-9
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552

Similar to the guidelines on security considerations RFC3552 and the
guidelines on privacy considerations RFC6973 we've proposed vectors of<= br> analysis and provided examples.

That these vectors might not be exhaustive and always context dependent
are for me no arguments to hold the draft back.

Furthermore I think the guidelines provide an input for discussion of
drafts during drafting phase, but also when they're discussed for revie= w
in other WGs or later on in the IESG. Decisions and reviews are
documented (and arguments are provided), so I am not sure whether one
can say the standpoints are arbitrary, nor that the judgments are not
replicable or cannot be contested (there are processes for that, that
can get weighed by the appropriate groups). It is not like these
guidelines for considerations are applied blindly.

If I understood you incorrectly, could you perhaps illustrate the test a bit more in the specific case of security considerations?

Best,

Niels



Niels ten Oever
Head of Digital

Article 19
w= ww.article19.org

PGP fingerprint=C2=A0 =C2=A0 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0678B 0= 8B5 A0F2 636D 68E9

On 06/27/2016 12:57 PM, Scott Craig wrote:
> Hi Niels,
>
> I=E2=80=99ve attached a document with comments on the pre-adoption dra= ft.
>
> I am still hoping that someone can address the concerns I raised on th= e
> list about the methodology. I refer specifically to the method by whic= h
> an architectural feature has been (or can be) claimed to 'shape th= e
> enabling environment' for a right.
>
> Raised here https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00401.html
> here https://www.ietf.org/mail-= archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00408.html
> and here https://www.ietf.org/m= ail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00417.html
>
> Though I agree with some of your conclusions, I do not think the
> justification for the claims you have made withstands scrutiny. As a > result it=E2=80=99s presently difficult to see how an engineer could j= ustify
> giving additional attention to the features highlighted in the draft.<= br> >
> To re-state what I said previously:
>
> I think the method you have described (quoted below)*_is great = for
> identifying _**/_candidate features_/*. But my concern is that it=E2= =80=99s
> insufficient to determine that a candidate feature is= an enabling (or
> restricting) feature.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/" It is on the basis of these various = case studies, elaborate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion on the mailinglist and = at various IETF conferences that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*we came to determine whether an architectur= al feature* is a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'crucial ingredient for enabli= ng the ability to exercise specific
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rights=E2=80=99. "/
>
> If no explicit test is applied to the candidate features
> after identification, I think this causes three problems:
>
> (1) *Judgements* *are arbitrary=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *
>
> i.e there is no basis on which to argue that the threshold for inclusi= on
> was the same for one technical concept as for another.
>
> (2) *Judgements are not replicable. *
>
> i.e it is not possible to claim that different authors would not have<= br> > come to significantly different conclusions than you have.
>
> (3) *Judgements cannot be contested=C2=A0 *
>
> e.g if someone were to disagree with your contention that
> internationalisation has a bearing on the right to political
> participation, on what basis would we adjudicate who is correct?
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Niels ten Oever <niels@article19.org
> <mailto:niels@article19.org>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi all,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To create a next RG version of the draft-tenoever-h= rpc-research ID, it's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probably good to draft a clear way forward.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We have had some really good comments and reviews d= uring and before the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0call for adoption, thanks for that, but if we want = to bring this further
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we will need some more reviews.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Two people (Shane and Giovanni) are currently testi= ng the guidelines for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0human rights considerations on two actual drafts, w= hich we hope can be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0presented in Berlin.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Avri mentioned she had elaborate feedback on the cu= rrent draft and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Collin Anderson mentioned he would do a review of t= he draft, which would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0both be greatly appeciated.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So now we're looking for a third and potentiall= y fourth reviewer who
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could review the draft in within the coming two wee= ks so we can create a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0new version ahead of IETF96 in Berlin.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What we're looking for is a review of the whole= document with more or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0less coherent notes, suggestions and/or criticisms = with which we could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0improve the document.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Looking forward to hear from you!
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Niels
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Niels ten Oever
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Head of Digital
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Article 19
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0www.article19.org <http://www.arti= cle19.org>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PGP fingerprint=C2=A0 =C2=A0 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56= C4
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hrpc mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hrpc@irtf.o= rg <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/hrpc
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow
> Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org <https://cdt.org/>*
> *E:* scraig@cdt.org <http://cdt.org/> | *D:* 1.202.4= 07.8887
> <tel:202.407.88= 87> | **@scottdavidcraig
>
> */
> /*
>




--

Scott Craig=C2=A0|=C2=A0Ford-Mozilla Fellow
Center fo= r Democracy & Technology=C2=A0|=C2=A0cdt.org=
E:=C2=A0scraig@cdt.org=C2=A0|=C2=A0D:= =C2=A01.2= 02.407.8887=C2=A0|=C2=A0@= scottdavidcraig=

=



--001a113db098c4a4380536f964c8-- From nobody Wed Jul 6 08:57:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F4D12D59B for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 08:57:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.644 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.644 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vjG4ZCjTVW_4 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 08:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0103.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E7F812D0AB for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 08:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (unknown [216.40.38.60]) by smtprelay03.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC60F6AB07 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 15:57:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Session-Marker: 6176726940646F7269612E6F7267 X-Spam-Summary: 50, 0, 0, , d41d8cd98f00b204, avri@acm.org, :, RULES_HIT:41:355:379:599:854:967:973:988:989:1042:1260:1261:1277:1311:1313:1314:1345:1359:1381:1437:1513:1515:1516:1518:1521:1534:1541:1593:1594:1683:1711:1730:1747:1777:1792:2393:2525:2553:2560:2563:2682:2685:2691:2693:2859:2933:2937:2939:2942:2945:2947:2951:2954:3022:3138:3139:3140:3141:3142:3352:3865:3866:3867:3868:3870:3871:3872:3874:3934:3936:3938:3941:3944:3947:3950:3953:3956:3959:5007:7652:7875:7903:8985:9025:10004:10400:10450:10455:10848:11232:11658:11914:12043:12109:12114:12517:12519:12740:13069:13311:13357:14096:14097:14181:14721:14764:14777:19904:19999:21067:21080:21366:21433, 0, RBL:none, CacheIP:none, Bayesian:0.5, 0.5, 0.5, Netcheck:none, DomainCache:0, MSF:not bulk, SPF:fp, MSBL:0, DNSBL:none, Custom_rules:0:0:0, LFtime:2, LUA_SUMMARY:none X-HE-Tag: ocean52_6108072a5ba30 X-Filterd-Recvd-Size: 2125 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [64.120.53.75]) (Authenticated sender: avri@doria.org) by omf11.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 15:57:46 +0000 (UTC) References: <575EBFFA.4070009@article19.org> <9d28fb11-15c1-8fe6-c4e3-16ef295217bf@article19.org> To: hrpc@irtf.org From: avri doria Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:57:45 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 160706-0, 07/06/2016), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] way forward draft-tenoever-hrpc-research - reviewers needed X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: avri@acm.org List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 15:57:55 -0000 On 06-Jul-16 11:40, Scott Craig wrote: > > It would be great to know whether others think the current method is > sufficient. > - Removing the proverbial co-chair hat As I mentioned in a much earlier analysis of the document, I too feel that the hypotheses need a more rigorous testing. Of course and exhaustive proof of the claims is impossible, but an attempt to build some rigorous test to test some of the conclusions in a falsifiable manner would be helpful. While the analysis done to date is good enough to motivate advocacy, I do not believe it adequate scientific or even engineering evidenceproof. - Replacing the proverbial hat I too am very interested in hearing the views of others on the need to test, and even on how such testing, if needed, could be done. I think it is one of the issue we will need to make an evaluation on as we move forward with the research. avri --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From nobody Wed Jul 6 09:22:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 690B212D113 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 09:21:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.02 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.02 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.377, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wIiDSECurdmK for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 09:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B1CE12D124 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 09:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9936521028F; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:21:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88B6221029E; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:21:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.112.228.6] (unknown [62.72.192.106]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 492ED21028F; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:21:53 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 18:21:51 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: Scott Craig MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Message-Id: <20160706162153.492ED21028F@mail.article19.io> Archived-At: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, Joe Hall Subject: Re: [hrpc] way forward draft-tenoever-hrpc-research - reviewers needed X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 16:21:59 -0000 PHAgZGlyPSJsdHIiPlRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhpcyBTY290dC4gPC9wPgo8cCBkaXI9Imx0ciI+SWYg d2UgbG9vayBhdCB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBzdGFuZGluZyBwcmFjdGljZSBmb3Igc2VjdXJpdHkgY29u c2lkZXJhdGlvbnMgdGhlbiBJIHRoaW5rIHdlIHNob3VsZCBnbyBmb3IgZXhhbXBsZXMgaW5zdGVh ZCBvZiBhIHRlc3QuPC9wPgo8cCBkaXI9Imx0ciI+U28gd291bGQgbW9yZSBleGFtcGxlcyAocGVy IGZlYXR1cmUgYW5kIHJpZ2h0IGltcGFjdGVkKSBiZSBzdWZmaWNpZW50IGluIHlvdXIgb3Bpbmlv bj88L3A+CjxwIGRpcj0ibHRyIj5CZXN0LDwvcD4KPHAgZGlyPSJsdHIiPk5pZWxzPGJyPgo8L3A+ CjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9InF1b3RlIj5PbiA2IEp1bCAyMDE2IDU6NDAgcC5tLiwgU2NvdHQgQ3JhaWcg Jmx0O3NjcmFpZ0BjZHQub3JnJmd0OyB3cm90ZTo8YnIgdHlwZT0nYXR0cmlidXRpb24nPjxibG9j a3F1b3RlIGNsYXNzPSJxdW90ZSIgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdpbjowIDAgMCAuOGV4O2JvcmRlci1sZWZ0 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aXY+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT48L2Rpdj4= From nobody Wed Jul 6 09:43:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EEF12D13D for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i8kgvurYsROK for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 09:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (mx2.yitter.info [50.116.54.116]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C2712B039 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 09:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A60010BCF for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:43:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx2.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx2.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Db_tnYmtTTY8 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:43:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (192-0-220-231.cpe.teksavvy.com [192.0.220.231]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D6F4D105A5 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:43:45 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 12:43:44 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20160706164344.GA634@mx2.yitter.info> References: <20160706162153.492ED21028F@mail.article19.io> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20160706162153.492ED21028F@mail.article19.io> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] way forward draft-tenoever-hrpc-research - reviewers needed X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 16:43:49 -0000 On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 06:21:51PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote: >

If we look at the current standing practice for security considerations then I think we should go for examples instead of a test.

I find this claim unconvincing. The security considerations approach had several historical features that are quite different from the present case: 1. There was a security area with a fairly well-developed community involved directly in protocol design. 2. The failure mode in a missed security consideration is generally an immediate exposure of some particular bit of data. (This is part of the reason why, historically, pervasive surveillance didn't count.) 3. Nobody thought that the security of protocols was just an irrelevant political injection into protocol design. There were questions about _which_ security ought to count, but not whether security as such was even relevant to protocol design. It's (3) that seems to me to be the biggest issue here. The I-D makes a claim that human rights considerations are in fact relevant to protocols, but as the I-D points out itself in §4, that is not a completely uncontroversial claim. Therefore, to me, a relationship between the rights in some framework and a particular protocol or piece of functionality in a protocol is what's needed, and the relationship needs to be demonstratable by entailment from within the rights-framework in question. If it's not, then there's really no evidence that there's a rights consideration at all. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Wed Jul 6 10:21:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68EA1126B6D for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 10:21:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id slBW885oOD6J for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 10:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 623FE12D0EA for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 10:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE9A638D3E8 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 17:21:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF71738D41E for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 17:21:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.1.3.29] (unknown [195.169.149.2]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A6ACD38D3E8 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 17:21:08 +0000 (UTC) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20160706162153.492ED21028F@mail.article19.io> <20160706164344.GA634@mx2.yitter.info> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <88f28179-0e2e-6229-a431-043812f9c3cc@article19.org> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 19:21:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160706164344.GA634@mx2.yitter.info> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5AmQlesrQ128FwwoJXNMmddxMi39oxa8N" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] way forward draft-tenoever-hrpc-research - reviewers needed X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 17:21:13 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --5AmQlesrQ128FwwoJXNMmddxMi39oxa8N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 07/06/2016 06:43 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 06:21:51PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>

If we look at the current standing practice for securit= y considerations then I think we should go for examples instead of a test= =2E

>=20 > I find this claim unconvincing. >=20 > The security considerations approach had several historical features > that are quite different from the present case: >=20 > 1. There was a security area with a fairly well-developed > community involved directly in protocol design. >=20 > 2. The failure mode in a missed security consideration is > generally an immediate exposure of some particular bit of data. > (This is part of the reason why, historically, pervasive > surveillance didn't count.) >=20 > 3. Nobody thought that the security of protocols was just an > irrelevant political injection into protocol design. There were > questions about _which_ security ought to count, but not whether > security as such was even relevant to protocol design. >=20 > It's (3) that seems to me to be the biggest issue here. The I-D makes > a claim that human rights considerations are in fact relevant to > protocols, but as the I-D points out itself in =C2=A74, that is not a > completely uncontroversial claim. >=20 > Therefore, to me, a relationship between the rights in some framework > and a particular protocol or piece of functionality in a protocol is > what's needed, and the relationship needs to be demonstratable by > entailment from within the rights-framework in question. If it's not, > then there's really no evidence that there's a rights consideration at > all. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > A Hi Andrew, Does this mean that you find the case studies and guidelines for considerations unconvincing? Best, Niels >=20 >=20 --5AmQlesrQ128FwwoJXNMmddxMi39oxa8N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXfT4DAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjpJJsH/jVezUzMbhgG0F2Km5foPWS3 KmHmTyPbJqCcB5swLyuEotuznpQtdkg3Y8SVyq+TUujz6IaKPfzfd+O3ApmJWelF HZbxFdBBvA5ia/7OlLD1RQn/ghXo3/7/0MLsTBMq4ZdqM0g2mYi1avH6baBtQ6A2 cpqTFsmExRNzQiWzTiXVXZOYcAK7NM0ZbG4gt7JUjzl52fsIFthgpPuGZ3OIE5gG +Nnh2wZKcqO4U6rzSkA0CzMIOaVqj0uc96DeaWxHdevRscOoUYCBOamaZM0f1hDV h/zzc7C045+gpxjiV4XNfj5j1E5wk00AJQnK2mJn3tg6b/Jhy5QttEfzTdFsA8o= =Ec2s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5AmQlesrQ128FwwoJXNMmddxMi39oxa8N-- From nobody Wed Jul 6 10:44:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6849D12D0DB for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 10:44:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WJrc0-z2uj4A for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 10:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (mx2.yitter.info [IPv6:2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:cfab]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA8712D0AA for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 10:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6B710CBD for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 17:44:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx2.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx2.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MCzrF3fuXe1Q for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 17:44:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (192-0-220-231.cpe.teksavvy.com [192.0.220.231]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 42C5A1067D for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 17:44:39 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 13:44:37 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20160706174437.GC634@mx2.yitter.info> References: <20160706162153.492ED21028F@mail.article19.io> <20160706164344.GA634@mx2.yitter.info> <88f28179-0e2e-6229-a431-043812f9c3cc@article19.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <88f28179-0e2e-6229-a431-043812f9c3cc@article19.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] way forward draft-tenoever-hrpc-research - reviewers needed X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 17:44:42 -0000 On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 07:21:07PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Does this mean that you find the case studies and guidelines for > considerations unconvincing? Sometimes. For instance, in 5.2.3, there's this: These capabilities for network control and limitations of the freedom of expression by end hosts can be traced back to the IPv4 design, helping us understand which technical protocol decisions have led to harm of these human rights. It isn't clear to me whether that's a claim that is supposed to introduce the next ¶ or whether it's a free standing one. If it is intended as introduction, the ¶ break makes it confusing. If it's a free-standing one, it's made completely without argument, is not obviously true, and may just be empty since it's so imprecise. The following ¶ is also problematic: Two major shifts have occurred to harm freedom of expression through misuse of the Internet Protocol. The first is the network's exploitation of the public visibility of the host pairs for all communications, and the corresponding ability to discriminate and block traffic as a result of that metadata. The second is the selective development of IP options. Protocol extensions including Mobility and Multicasting have proposed alternate communication modes and suggest that different forms of assembly could be supported by a robust IP layer. Instead, the protocol limited the deployability of such extensions by not providing a mechanism for appropriate fallback behavior when unrecognized extensions are encountered. First, it isn't actually "the network" that has "exploited" the public visibility of host pairs. It is some operators of networks. The network design remains exactly as neutral as ever, and the ability to block traffic may not anyway be a feature of the protocol so much as a feature of Internetworking: your network, your rules, and that has to mean the concomitant ability for you to block traffic on your network. The claim about fallback behaviour is similarly contentious, and I think perhaps somewhat anachronistic. (You can't really have that two ways: complaining about failures of v4 while ignoring features of v6 that are specifically there to correct some of these things appears to demand some evidence that people are impeding v6 deployment. For the non-deployment of v6 suggests that maybe people don't care that much about this.) Now, one can read the follow-on sections as providing some of the argument for the above. But in that case, it's not clear to me why some of the claims are expanded as they are in this section. This is an example; I don't think the difficulties stop there. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Wed Jul 6 11:09:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CFB12D16F for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id veUeylF4gMES for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C1A412D0C2 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F7191A9748; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 18:09:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EAA81A975D; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 18:09:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.1.3.29] (unknown [195.169.149.2]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 436421A9748; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 18:09:22 +0000 (UTC) To: "hrpc@irtf.org" , Harry Halpin From: Niels ten Oever X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <15cc0479-b312-598c-4ff1-7fd2c7c4f950@article19.org> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 20:09:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uIbpiobVWactdgiNPx3T8BkCTnR5VGxHo" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] reviews by Harry Halpin X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 18:09:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --uIbpiobVWactdgiNPx3T8BkCTnR5VGxHo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Harry, Corinne and I have went through your comments, for which I would like to thank you again. Most issues have been addressed in the draft that is about to be published (for which you can find the md here: https://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/blob/master/draft-research.md , I think it made the draft much better, thanks a lot. There are a few things unresovled though: > =C2=B7 Federation The possibility of connecting autonomous system= s > into single distributed system. @@: Distibuted system has a > well-defined meaning in computer science. I'd say 'decentralized' > here and note that 'autonomous and possibly centralized' We have went with this solution because there is a lot of contention about what 'decentralized' is. Therefore we said that everything that is federated is by defintion distributed. Are you proposing: =C2=B7 Federation The possibility of connecting autonomous systems = into single autonomous and possibly centralized system.? Am not sure if it would be much clearer, I also do think that it is in line with the provided definition of distributed system. > =C2=B7 Methodology @@: While interesting from an academic > perspective, it seems like this should be in an appendix or towards > the end and referenced I think we'll keep this here, because it is an IRTF document (focusing on research). If we want to guidelines to be normative or relevant for the IETF we will need to bring it up there. > =C2=B7 @@: Noting Moxie's SSLstrip makes this capability available= to > almost anyone, as its is likely a *design flaw* that the identifier > of the encrypted version (https://) of a resource is different than > an unencrypted one (http://), although it is likely a design flaw > that is is too late to fix. Only with HSTS and certificate pinning > (failed IETF draft for it as "Tack") can this attack really be dealt > with. I do recognize this problem, but am not sure whether adding this hear will add much to the purpose of the draft, but curious to hear opinions from others on this. > =C2=B7 @@IETF does not in general have much > work in standardizing P2P protocols. Should it? Should this be > included if the protocol was designed outside the IEF? There is increasingly work on P2P in IETF, am not sure why we should exclude this (RFC5128, RFC5694, but also: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/p2psip/charter/ ) > @@You should not patents, and the destrutive role patents have had in > holding back cryptography, in particular elliptic curves or even > Schnorr signatures, and how the IETF "Note Well" and W3C > "Royalty-Free licensing Patent policy" given a definition of open > stanardization in terms of intellectual property. Could you provide us some text for this? Thanks again for this great review. Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 --uIbpiobVWactdgiNPx3T8BkCTnR5VGxHo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXfUlRAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjp0o0H/3jw4iQByrs/Mqyl8Bo6Lr3c QWY4rFYqCEvppw9uEbAROhFrJV2OeepGpSzXn710gtkP23ogqC0R/FYNyYdzCZRB XwIpBLTJERyKyW4p0XcCkzuar0eQm1gImEYZUTalAmbt7GUriqJLmE6GpGVlXH3N Arh1G832GiAzXidzuGnjJmARZXie/zDvLuF4grv1pQx8z8pdlaVSC8SNSk3lTnzr s9pdQ6+tSYrTkwAVLe3h4ssypHlBqMywafd9zOw6LYYNaTxkIJ3Vq5jbWrJX/DUN npwAor2a4X2PUHcGpZgcLpR4tJSCXac5LV3BrYQZG9Qu5wKgliP6yeCPf6Lf8SY= =fBU8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uIbpiobVWactdgiNPx3T8BkCTnR5VGxHo-- From nobody Wed Jul 6 11:55:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC74512D629 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:54:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 71wvnqHp23oV for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61D8C12D5AD for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55B52396516 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 18:54:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46D39396539 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 18:54:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.1.3.29] (unknown [195.169.149.2]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3E877396516 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 18:54:47 +0000 (UTC) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20160706162153.492ED21028F@mail.article19.io> <20160706164344.GA634@mx2.yitter.info> <88f28179-0e2e-6229-a431-043812f9c3cc@article19.org> <20160706174437.GC634@mx2.yitter.info> From: Niels ten Oever X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <5166e5af-235d-c3e9-fe80-585a3d90ab59@article19.org> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 20:54:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160706174437.GC634@mx2.yitter.info> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pTUe51op2rq2ojPdfX7CAshmtRHs31nIr" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] way forward draft-tenoever-hrpc-research - reviewers needed X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 18:54:52 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --pTUe51op2rq2ojPdfX7CAshmtRHs31nIr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andrew, On 07/06/2016 07:44 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 07:21:07PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> Does this mean that you find the case studies and guidelines for >> considerations unconvincing? >=20 > Sometimes. >=20 > For instance, in 5.2.3, there's this: >=20 > These capabilities for > network control and limitations of the freedom of expression by end > hosts can be traced back to the IPv4 design, helping us understand > which technical protocol decisions have led to harm of these human > rights. >=20 > It isn't clear to me whether that's a claim that is supposed to > introduce the next =C2=B6 or whether it's a free standing one. If it i= s > intended as introduction, the =C2=B6 break makes it confusing. If it's= a > free-standing one, it's made completely without argument, is not > obviously true, and may just be empty since it's so imprecise. >=20 Great point, removed the break. Thanks. > The following =C2=B6 is also problematic: >=20 > Two major shifts have occurred to harm freedom of expression through= > misuse of the Internet Protocol. The first is the network's > exploitation of the public visibility of the host pairs for all > communications, and the corresponding ability to discriminate and > block traffic as a result of that metadata. The second is the > selective development of IP options. Protocol extensions including > Mobility and Multicasting have proposed alternate communication mode= s > and suggest that different forms of assembly could be supported by a= > robust IP layer. Instead, the protocol limited the deployability of= > such extensions by not providing a mechanism for appropriate fallbac= k > behavior when unrecognized extensions are encountered. >=20 > First, it isn't actually "the network" that has "exploited" the public > visibility of host pairs. It is some operators of networks. The > network design remains exactly as neutral as ever,=20 I think we have discussed the non-neutrality of technology already at lenghth. Also RFC3935: The Internet isn't value-neutral, and neither is the IETF. We want the Internet to be useful for communities that share our commitment to openness and fairness. We embrace technical concepts such as decentralized control, edge-user empowerment and sharing of resources, because those concepts resonate with the core values of the IETF community. These concepts have little to do with the technology that's possible, and much to do with the technology that we choose to create. > and the ability to > block traffic may not anyway be a feature of the protocol so much as a > feature of Internetworking: your network, your rules, and that has to > mean the concomitant ability for you to block traffic on your network. The ease and ability of doing filtering (and surveillance) can still be very different based on design of the protocol. > The claim about fallback behaviour is similarly contentious, and I > think perhaps somewhat anachronistic. (You can't really have that two > ways: complaining about failures of v4 while ignoring features of v6 > that are specifically there to correct some of these things appears to > demand some evidence that people are impeding v6 deployment. For the > non-deployment of v6 suggests that maybe people don't care that much > about this.) >=20 I think there are many reasons for adoption / non-adoption of IPv6, but I don't think this is within the scope of this draft. > Now, one can read the follow-on sections as providing some of the > argument for the above. But in that case, it's not clear to me why > some of the claims are expanded as they are in this section. >=20 It is (trying to) show impact of specific design choices on human rights. Please allow me to reiterate that this can be completely legitimate, the excercise is trying to stimulate people to make conscious choices about this and make aim to make it visible. > This is an example; I don't think the difficulties stop there. >=20 I would really appreciate a longer review, either on list or in person in Berlin (or during the hrpc session there). Best, Niels > Best regards, >=20 > A >=20 --pTUe51op2rq2ojPdfX7CAshmtRHs31nIr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXfVP3AAoJEAi1oPJjbWjpj3cH/0Akk+Lf7Gz7b++oNuMpU4pq VaIe0Gn3cgy5viZ6Y4KE8BNMwbcwGg3vylmM1piZjes4A/ItnWq7MF6FCYOkXQQM qODcBAnN3qZ9OAtp9TVeZfzoQplb2woLntv16kk+ixeA1Oq8tzWKts6IQUeky/zq Wk6l0cSO+6FSbLjhW24VB4K+LGsjXD4flh9vkL4JRr2rMdZ6A3IXQykhibOS1Daw uP3pBT38Sap50KvVNfG58NpLb3yfNbuuWSX6gnoiaMNPBmzeNPxMB+4WcbczuDSO jsL59HJplUt/YW0SK9f6VFKTkEsmr1bEgyghhOdjlS4DwmJZtz3/D0FuLb0Oz9g= =2Loi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pTUe51op2rq2ojPdfX7CAshmtRHs31nIr-- From nobody Wed Jul 6 12:16:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B0812D1C7; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 12:16:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.25.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160706191604.26752.77361.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 12:16:04 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Subject: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 19:16:05 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations of the IETF. Title : Research into Human Rights Protocol Considerations Authors : Niels ten Oever Corinne Cath Filename : draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-03.txt Pages : 68 Date : 2016-07-06 Abstract: The proliferating convolution of Internet and society increases the impact of the Internet on the lives of individuals. Because of this, the design and development of the architecture of the Internet also has a growing impact on society. This has led to an broad recognition that human rights [UDHR] [ICCPR] [ICESCR] have a role in the development and management of the Internet [HRC2012] [UNGA2013] [NETmundial]. It has also been argued that the Internet should be strengthened as a human rights enabling environment [Brown]. This document provides a proposal for a vocabulary to discuss the relation between human rights and Internet protocols, an overview of the discussion in technical and academic literature and communities, a proposal for the mapping of the relation between human rights and technical concepts, and a proposal for guidelines for human rights considerations, similar to the work done on the guidelines for privacy considerations [RFC6973]. Discussion of this draft at: hrpc@irtf.org // https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tenoever-hrpc-research/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jul 6 12:58:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11BBC12B009 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 12:58:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4p-2rKmD9biV for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 12:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmta2.delivery5.ore.mailhop.org (pmta2.delivery5.ore.mailhop.org [54.186.218.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B1F912B016 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 12:58:28 -0700 (PDT) X-MHO-User: 1c6838a3-43b4-11e6-8929-8ded99d5e9d7 X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 98.211.64.149 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from [192.168.200.112] (unknown [98.211.64.149]) by outbound2.ore.mailhop.org (Halon Mail Gateway) with ESMTPSA for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 19:59:12 +0000 (UTC) From: John Curran Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_435F9F84-EA22-4756-9907-CB7909372402" Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 15:58:25 -0400 References: <1D6C4AF2-306D-492E-A8A4-EEEEE74F02AB@istaff.org> To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-03 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 19:58:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_435F9F84-EA22-4756-9907-CB7909372402 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Folks -=20 =20 I suggested a change of one word (for clarity of scope), and it = appears not to be included in -03 version=E2=80=A6 is this an oversight, or = we simply=20 lacked adequate discussion of same? I believe that it removes the onus of being considered a guide to developing a comprehensive=20 review of all potential human rights impacts, and fairly important in light of the interview-based methodology already being discussed=20 on this list. Thoughts? /John > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: John Curran > Subject: [hrpc] current draft draft-tenoever-hrpc-research > Date: June 27, 2016 at 10:31:34 AM EDT > To: hrpc@irtf.org >=20 >> To create a next RG version of the draft-tenoever-hrpc-research ID, = it's >> probably good to draft a clear way forward. >=20 > In that spirit, I would like to suggest a one-word edit for purposes = of clarity=20 > of scope. >=20 > I would suggest adding the word =E2=80=9Cspecific=E2=80=9D to the = following sentence -=20 >=20 > "However, by carefully considering the answers to the following = questions, document authors should be able to produce a comprehensive = analysis that can serve as the basis for discussion on whether the = protocol adequately protects against human rights threats.=E2=80=9D >=20 > as follows - >=20 > "However, by carefully considering the answers to the following = questions, document authors should be able to produce a comprehensive = analysis that can serve as the basis for discussion on whether the = protocol adequately protects against specific human rights threats.=E2=80=9D= >=20 > The reason for this edit is related to the methodology used to produce = the > document - while it is excellent at teasing out mapping between human=20= > rights and technical terms, it was focused on extracting concepts from=20= > "an extensive list of protocols and standards that potentially enable = the=20 > Internet as a tool for freedom of expression and association=E2=80=9D = As a result, > it unclear how much consideration the other human rights that do not=20= > appear at all in the resulting definitions/vocabulary (such as = effective=20 > remedy) received in this process.=20 >=20 > Rather than belabor the point further, the suggested one-word edit = would > appropriately set the readers expectations for the otherwise excellent = draft. >=20 > Thanks, > /John >=20 > Disclaimer: my views alone. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --Apple-Mail=_435F9F84-EA22-4756-9907-CB7909372402 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Folks - 
 
   I suggested a change = of one word (for clarity of scope), and it appears
   not to be included in -03 version=E2=80=A6 is = this an oversight, or we simply 
  =  lacked adequate discussion of same?   I believe that it = removes the
   onus of being considered a = guide to developing a comprehensive 
  =  review of all potential human rights impacts, and fairly important = in
   light of the interview-based = methodology already being discussed 
  =  on this list.

Thoughts?
/John

Begin = forwarded message:

From: = John Curran <jcurran@istaff.org>
Subject: = [hrpc] current = draft draft-tenoever-hrpc-research
Date: = June 27, 2016 at 10:31:34 AM = EDT
To: = hrpc@irtf.org

To create a next RG version of the = draft-tenoever-hrpc-research ID, it's
probably good to = draft a clear way forward.

In = that spirit, I would like to suggest a one-word edit for purposes of = clarity
of scope.

I would = suggest adding the word =E2=80=9Cspecific=E2=80=9D to the following = sentence -

"However, by carefully = considering the answers to the following questions, document authors = should be able to produce a comprehensive analysis that can serve as the = basis for discussion on whether the protocol adequately protects against = human rights threats.=E2=80=9D

as follows = -

"However, by carefully = considering the answers to the following questions, document authors = should be able to produce a comprehensive analysis that can serve as the = basis for discussion on whether the protocol adequately protects against = specific human rights threats.=E2=80=9D

The = reason for this edit is related to the methodology used to produce = the
document - while it is excellent at teasing out = mapping between human
rights and technical terms, it was = focused on extracting concepts from
"an extensive list of = protocols and standards that potentially enable the
Internet as a tool for freedom of expression and = association=E2=80=9D   As a result,
it unclear = how much consideration the other human rights that do not
appear at all in the resulting definitions/vocabulary (such = as effective
remedy) received in this process.

Rather than belabor the point further, the = suggested one-word edit would
appropriately set the = readers expectations for the otherwise excellent draft.

Thanks,
/John

Disclaimer: my views alone.


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

= --Apple-Mail=_435F9F84-EA22-4756-9907-CB7909372402-- From nobody Wed Jul 6 13:11:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E09412B018 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 13:11:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4HJsZBqeGZPE for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 13:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3BEC12D639 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 13:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 791673A1293 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 20:04:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65F903A1296 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 20:04:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.1.3.29] (unknown [195.169.149.2]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 55D3B3A1293 for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 20:04:37 +0000 (UTC) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <1D6C4AF2-306D-492E-A8A4-EEEEE74F02AB@istaff.org> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <6f66792b-a44a-1c6e-b5c2-1143eed07995@article19.org> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 22:04:36 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xDandpoqoB5TTjKM4Gp3GLlB3c5FvhTfw" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-03 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2016 20:11:11 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --xDandpoqoB5TTjKM4Gp3GLlB3c5FvhTfw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, This somehow went wrong in Git versioing, sorry about that. I just pushed the changed to Github, and I hope there will be more suggestions from people so I can make -4 before Friday midnight, else it will be after IETF96. Sorry for the mistake and thanks for being sharp! Cheers, Niels Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 On 07/06/2016 09:58 PM, John Curran wrote: > Folks -=20 > =20 > I suggested a change of one word (for clarity of scope), and it appe= ars > not to be included in -03 version=85 is this an oversight, or we sim= ply=20 > lacked adequate discussion of same? I believe that it removes the > onus of being considered a guide to developing a comprehensive=20 > review of all potential human rights impacts, and fairly important i= n > light of the interview-based methodology already being discussed=20 > on this list. >=20 > Thoughts? > /John >=20 >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *John Curran > >> *Subject: **[hrpc] current draft draft-tenoever-hrpc-research* >> *Date: *June 27, 2016 at 10:31:34 AM EDT >> *To: *hrpc@irtf.org >> >>> To create a next RG version of the draft-tenoever-hrpc-research ID, i= t's >>> probably good to draft a clear way forward. >> >> In that spirit, I would like to suggest a one-word edit for purposes >> of clarity >> of scope. >> >> I would suggest adding the word =93specific=94 to the following senten= ce - >> >> "However, by carefully considering the answers to the following >> questions, document authors should be able to produce a comprehensive >> analysis that can serve as the basis for discussion on whether the >> protocol adequately protects against human rights threats.=94 >> >> as follows - >> >> "However, by carefully considering the answers to the following >> questions, document authors should be able to produce a comprehensive >> analysis that can serve as the basis for discussion on whether the >> protocol adequately protects against specific human rights threats.=94= >> >> The reason for this edit is related to the methodology used to produce= the >> document - while it is excellent at teasing out mapping between human >> rights and technical terms, it was focused on extracting concepts from= >> "an extensive list of protocols and standards that potentially enable = the >> Internet as a tool for freedom of expression and association=94 As a= >> result, >> it unclear how much consideration the other human rights that do not >> appear at all in the resulting definitions/vocabulary (such as effecti= ve >> remedy) received in this process. >> >> Rather than belabor the point further, the suggested one-word edit wou= ld >> appropriately set the readers expectations for the otherwise excellent= >> draft. >> >> Thanks, >> /John >> >> Disclaimer: my views alone. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --xDandpoqoB5TTjKM4Gp3GLlB3c5FvhTfw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXfWRVAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjp+xcH/2HAcpsq2YKzQKNRVOXPsY/v pCrlB8Cy9tOSHEXqCrD6aD//bOQCjgLsQCe/64/eHEws6rpFCcbAkE6glZEdHkK6 qwD0pbhCeDEBfPMHmbA5OQCbAai1Ijf70BetpFwS/kFUDH4Gkd78ITg92Ai7dDTA Ry9+JeEZvZXQSthY4IwoCELykUG5WkcCJBIzdZZl8lWqury5xhTx9NAreJ0CDJZc vqUXFSUBkKkF3GRQnMeT6ZLV5EIztAqsAjHxeXyYOmwDLnQSzrIS5SMHL2c+YcbI m7c112b4A2+zuMUI5mEDLZPZYVDLBj8K+sIt2gusULbcUrXD1PUjMk9+C2k0dkM= =/pnf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xDandpoqoB5TTjKM4Gp3GLlB3c5FvhTfw-- From nobody Thu Jul 7 02:26:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB65612D50C for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 02:26:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mbmuK7kGhpVv for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 02:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4DBA12D0B3 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 02:26:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2205; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1467883615; x=1469093215; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to; bh=j+7JerX3r03V2g2KXV7FebU9fAICQ68s4a3D5UbXaFY=; b=eayHe/wPnb6sv2HpJ5HRXsOEWbvps9GHpQSZGCdSJWUzL15Gw5pxdrIm Rc0WLLumI6bvEt3VYEyyRmor1vTWQ3E7DOB0EwJnAOIicSvZ2gyvF9MF8 xwjDFISiqsGRya885Ai8oBCsJYi7Lq1BfBoD6I+YMvvVW8WLr7si5kB4u I=; X-Files: signature.asc : 481 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CVEgBSH35X/xbLJq1bhD67ZYYYAoFiE?= =?us-ascii?q?AEBAQEBAQFlJ4RNAQUjZgtCAgJXBgEMCAEBiCytRI9EAQEBAQEBAQMBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BEg6IH4JVh0GCWgEEmRODL4FsiSyJS4VfkAo1H4NzOokuAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.28,324,1464652800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="635574368" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 07 Jul 2016 09:26:53 +0000 Received: from [10.61.97.140] (dhcp-10-61-97-140.cisco.com [10.61.97.140]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u679Qq25005655; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 09:26:53 GMT To: Niels ten Oever , "hrpc@irtf.org" , Harry Halpin References: <15cc0479-b312-598c-4ff1-7fd2c7c4f950@article19.org> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 11:26:54 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15cc0479-b312-598c-4ff1-7fd2c7c4f950@article19.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EsW5dSMFAwnGGROQaF9P49Uowhkb1tJfv" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] reviews by Harry Halpin X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2016 09:26:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --EsW5dSMFAwnGGROQaF9P49Uowhkb1tJfv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="3tNiW6v5ePcTEMKEEUlQDGjcL4IqARRK8" From: Eliot Lear To: Niels ten Oever , "hrpc@irtf.org" , Harry Halpin Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] reviews by Harry Halpin References: <15cc0479-b312-598c-4ff1-7fd2c7c4f950@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <15cc0479-b312-598c-4ff1-7fd2c7c4f950@article19.org> --3tNiW6v5ePcTEMKEEUlQDGjcL4IqARRK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Niels, On 7/6/16 8:09 PM, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> @@You should not patents, and the destrutive role patents have had in >> holding back cryptography, in particular elliptic curves or even >> Schnorr signatures, and how the IETF "Note Well" and W3C >> "Royalty-Free licensing Patent policy" given a definition of open >> stanardization in terms of intellectual property. > Could you provide us some text for this? > > Much as I agree with Harry's concerns about patents, I'm a little nervous that your document will become the kitchen sink to discuss all evils. That to me is a separate document. One could in fact write a book =E2=80=93 dare I say manifesto =E2=80=93 on that subject alone... Eliot --3tNiW6v5ePcTEMKEEUlQDGjcL4IqARRK8-- --EsW5dSMFAwnGGROQaF9P49Uowhkb1tJfv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXfiBeAAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz4PkH/3H+0tKVR0Tumg/zGRSpHLk1 TMq9n0RH90br3ngLsXST3zgtqMaTBBoEURCvDBnATO6zhYMJflqz+lyaf2eIuOg/ WnAXsNNDkMZ7ioqJ8Gp+gZaZpHK6/rTOZq2yHn4ibNBAPOyJfGt88rasi6KS6Snb 7XT1ghXPygU807pHS/pjCk9JTXUNUTzOdn5wMZ7xQU+66CiyTubdcPoh5yiqTeuQ 779l9ISLk3PMYI9/1n+fh/1sgM2HxVHhLzGjA0UDl9+6GauOydyFogHA4xDrnLJP Cy1GyOJSVoJ3LvYZ2Q7S9OL0D7T3lX6mkm49YpRijR/vuKgaRTgi+E48WH0inmg= =mJRJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EsW5dSMFAwnGGROQaF9P49Uowhkb1tJfv-- From nobody Thu Jul 7 02:45:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E8312D675 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 02:45:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GStgjZKKogxh for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 02:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EA9612D671 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 02:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1A831B3721; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 09:45:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E16131B3723; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 09:45:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [145.18.162.129] (wcw-staff-145-18-162-129.wireless.uva.nl [145.18.162.129]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CFD421B3721; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 09:45:04 +0000 (UTC) To: Eliot Lear , "hrpc@irtf.org" , Harry Halpin References: <15cc0479-b312-598c-4ff1-7fd2c7c4f950@article19.org> From: Niels ten Oever X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <9a939f9a-f2dd-fe1b-c3d5-7af0bb20c034@article19.org> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 11:45:04 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="j0bGTDssQ2GKhHhADbqTHnkpUN62Sc9Ub" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] reviews by Harry Halpin X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2016 09:45:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --j0bGTDssQ2GKhHhADbqTHnkpUN62Sc9Ub Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Elliot, On 07/07/2016 11:26 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Niels, >=20 >=20 > On 7/6/16 8:09 PM, Niels ten Oever wrote: >=20 >>> @@You should not patents, and the destrutive role patents have had in= >>> holding back cryptography, in particular elliptic curves or even >>> Schnorr signatures, and how the IETF "Note Well" and W3C >>> "Royalty-Free licensing Patent policy" given a definition of open >>> stanardization in terms of intellectual property. >> Could you provide us some text for this? >> >> >=20 > Much as I agree with Harry's concerns about patents, I'm a little > nervous that your document will become the kitchen sink to discuss all > evils. That to me is a separate document. One could in fact write a > book =E2=80=93 dare I say manifesto =E2=80=93 on that subject alone... >=20 I recognize your concern, and it is by no means my intention to make this draft a manifesto for everything that is right/wrong in protocols, but rather a way to make impacts on peoples rights more visible and give people a structure and document their decisions. As Scott made it clear, we should make it very clear why we think this is the case, preferably based on other research, examples and RFCs to show that the relations between rights and protocol/practice are not made intuitively, but rather building on best practices and real world situations. Best, Niels > Eliot >=20 >=20 --j0bGTDssQ2GKhHhADbqTHnkpUN62Sc9Ub Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXfiSgAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjpeSIIAJ/iCExBHj1Fu+zdN7n8Vuv8 pS5k9JIoiAbJzkS7Bm6XIy8yxM/XXIrALZTwcXK4J+MVjaiqkxGJ6KJ9K6TK1OvF 51GCidwTg70On1yrtPBkAUsvMKU/uMlYckwfpgknXRy8Q+X4t5dzJFY7jAuEdz+W A3zoRfLSKVVWFmBwphK86/251vFu2VwndqLpZyntrQ328PKK50LmmTYogMJ1OMaJ JKr0v2rWvXESfF6cURnHccxfhjLNd2djM55otLfHwwY/YEYNY/jCdQVxjo/4SQVD hIP8ws/oGZY+7GrFAWK45RnyahRNxdDKdKNapivbgjSKqAlMhV7Jm4ums6WOJqE= =qkMf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --j0bGTDssQ2GKhHhADbqTHnkpUN62Sc9Ub-- From nobody Thu Jul 7 06:51:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F4812D769 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 06:51:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u3kz-OQviJ_q for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 06:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x236.google.com (mail-oi0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A308612B005 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 06:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x236.google.com with SMTP id r2so23599052oih.2 for ; Thu, 07 Jul 2016 06:51:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GeACfQl67jn39KW6Nad1VbjechC3sNSBR3Zm3BzmONw=; b=iRrwV/035NsVZTBPj1tMMblfrCatdulCREQbTSzrTHcgUnBkOkMlzvEJpOiR4MjlM/ g95zWXoqPHGF51Lvuj9FWQQRGnlVNmxyvAOJ9MJzDzzqK8GSl+tFRDdB8P5w14tAng44 zmVKTagIEHq+ouk0ZyOr37imL75AjMXQOJTwU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GeACfQl67jn39KW6Nad1VbjechC3sNSBR3Zm3BzmONw=; b=h33ZC/B6MxdOJhLiDu8vAALDjMZjUjaTRs8tkBFkZV8rVayOwVjvvNPZwnyH5oehrA a8Ko4FfX81rEfEdGAt5IXwxtwaBiJAdJWBsTdgTgpxVZxOhorPwpm10nwnCoxSYIUnT3 yc62CDbgh0ocfuFF4jwOhxi+5dWKgyHm+4iz/KKuhzneyBBlwDCrFyZRY+uzCa6/nxet J9iUKmHDaRzy9QwckMIJx61z7B8Nez7bupIZ/HipvsEbMhj8B9MzF8UgA4nVWIKFlLFG tmgAHFyybEYoTdedbsRSIeLQXiNvr1e17o40gbvbw3Ddo4DLhcVygKOmCQ+YWINz1rrT pdGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIPygJQWGhGVqBrPvbOOnzm65SvKzWsq23lRtPbE5FO5X1bgXLaVo9E77Ni2oKYHWoAQUN3P2DK99W9j3Pa X-Received: by 10.202.79.83 with SMTP id d80mr193275oib.64.1467899486734; Thu, 07 Jul 2016 06:51:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.175.65 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 06:51:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Craig Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 14:51:26 +0100 Message-ID: To: Niels ten Oever Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d7f147959e905370bfbb1 Archived-At: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, Joe Hall Subject: [hrpc] Methods for establishing the relationships between features and rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2016 13:51:36 -0000 --001a113d7f147959e905370bfbb1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Niels, Case examples are definitely good evidence in assessing whether a feature could have an effect on a right and whether that effect is significant enough to warrant addition attention by engineers. However, I think what is needed is a set of criteria which allows for a transparent and consistent assessment of the claims made for relationships between features and rights. Case examples could form part of the evidence base for this assessment. I=E2=80=99d like to draw your attention to Section 5.2.2 'Translation human= rights to technical terms=E2=80=99 where the document claims that the following li= sted features impact upon the right to freedom of expression. "The combination of content agnosticism, connectivity, security, privacy > (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and open standards are the technical principl= es > that underlie freedom of expression on the Internet.=E2=80=9D > > > ( Connectivity ) > ( Privacy ) > ( Security ) =3D Right to freedom of _expression_ > ( Content agnosticism ) > ( Internationalization ) > ( Censorship resistance ) > ( Open Standards ) > ( Heterogeneity support ) Instead of detailing the basis on which the claims within it rest, section 5.2.2 just asserts them. I think that, at a minimum, there needs to be something inserted into 5.2.2 that describes how you have made these judgements, or states that judgements are based on the intuition of the authors. Significantly for the point i=E2=80=99m trying to make, the visual represen= tation in the document appears to make three more claims than the paragraph. I.e the diagram claims that Heterogeneity support, Internationalisation and censorship resistance have an effect on the ability to exercise freedom of expression whereas the paragraph does not. This could well be a typo. But what if it=E2=80=99s not? Should we remove t= he features from the diagram or add them to the paragraph? How would we decide whether your paragraph or your diagram is correct without any agreed criteria for assessing claims? What should be the minimum effect that merits inclusion? This is the question that i=E2=80=99ve been pushing on. If it is the case that that these relationships have been based on authors intuition then we really have to go back to this section, unpack that black box, and come up with a set of criteria that ensures these judgments are being made in an transparent and consistent way. Scott On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Niels ten Oever wrote= : > Thanks for this Scott. > > If we look at the current standing practice for security considerations > then I think we should go for examples instead of a test. > > So would more examples (per feature and right impacted) be sufficient in > your opinion? > > Best, > > Niels > On 6 Jul 2016 5:40 p.m., Scott Craig wrote: > > Hey Niels, > > Thanks for this. > > The fundamental issue I have is that the method you have used to claim > links between features and rights is a black box. There is no discernible > basis for the links other than your own judgement. > > I don=E2=80=99t in any way doubt the quality of your judgement. But I str= uggle to > see how it provides sufficient grounds on which to expect every IETF > engineer to pay additional attention to the features in the document. > > The idea of a test was simply a way to add some rigour to these claims in > order to give them some means of defence if they are challenged and some > means of adjudication if they are disputed. Right now you are literally > just saying that you talked to some people and then you decided which > things were linked. > > " It is on the basis of these various case studies, elaborate discussion > on the mailing list and at various IETF conferences that we came to > determine whether an architectural feature is a 'crucial ingredient for > enabling the ability to exercise specific rights=E2=80=99. " > > > Simply saying *=E2=80=98We came to determine=E2=80=99* as the method for = determining the > central claims made in the document just isn=E2=80=99t good enough. You c= an > describe this process as =E2=80=98proposing vectors of analysis=E2=80=99= if you want but > this is no more than an obfuscated synonym for authors judgement. > > If I was an aircraft engineer and my colleagues informed me that the > contents of the pre-flight check had been determined by people who had > talked to aircraft engineers doing doing =E2=80=98vectors of analysis=E2= =80=99 and that no > criteria had then been used to evaluate and prioritise what we were being > asked to check then I would be terrified for the passengers. This exercis= e > is no less serious and demands no less rigour. > > If the point of the document is to ask engineers to give greater attentio= n > to the architectural features it highlights then a black box judgement > cannot be a solid enough basis on which to make that request. > > It would be great to know whether others think the current method is > sufficient. > > Scott Craig > > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:28 PM, Niels ten Oever > wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > I have been thinking a lot about your suggestions. I think the test you > have been proposing might not be applicable for a technical environment > (but am happy to be proven wrong). > > I do not think we can exhaustively list and map the risks that protocols > generate in relation to rights. > > I would also like to add that the test you propose is neither part nor a > requirement in for instance security considerations: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2223#section-9 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552 > > Similar to the guidelines on security considerations RFC3552 and the > guidelines on privacy considerations RFC6973 we've proposed vectors of > analysis and provided examples. > > That these vectors might not be exhaustive and always context dependent > are for me no arguments to hold the draft back. > > Furthermore I think the guidelines provide an input for discussion of > drafts during drafting phase, but also when they're discussed for review > in other WGs or later on in the IESG. Decisions and reviews are > documented (and arguments are provided), so I am not sure whether one > can say the standpoints are arbitrary, nor that the judgments are not > replicable or cannot be contested (there are processes for that, that > can get weighed by the appropriate groups). It is not like these > guidelines for considerations are applied blindly. > > If I understood you incorrectly, could you perhaps illustrate the test a > bit more in the specific case of security considerations? > > Best, > > Niels > > > > Niels ten Oever > Head of Digital > > Article 19 > www.article19.org > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > On 06/27/2016 12:57 PM, Scott Craig wrote: > > Hi Niels, > > > > I=E2=80=99ve attached a document with comments on the pre-adoption draf= t. > > > > I am still hoping that someone can address the concerns I raised on the > > list about the methodology. I refer specifically to the method by which > > an architectural feature has been (or can be) claimed to 'shape the > > enabling environment' for a right. > > > > Raised here > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00401.html > > here https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00408.html > > and here > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00417.html > > > > Though I agree with some of your conclusions, I do not think the > > justification for the claims you have made withstands scrutiny. As a > > result it=E2=80=99s presently difficult to see how an engineer could ju= stify > > giving additional attention to the features highlighted in the draft. > > > > To re-state what I said previously: > > > > I think the method you have described (quoted below)*_is great for > > identifying _**/_candidate features_/*. But my concern is that it=E2=80= =99s > > insufficient to determine that a candidate feature is an enabling (or > > restricting) feature. > > > > /" It is on the basis of these various case studies, elaborate > > discussion on the mailinglist and at various IETF conferences that > > *we came to determine whether an architectural feature* is a > > 'crucial ingredient for enabling the ability to exercise specific > > rights=E2=80=99. "/ > > > > If no explicit test is applied to the candidate features > > after identification, I think this causes three problems: > > > > (1) *Judgements* *are arbitrary * > > > > i.e there is no basis on which to argue that the threshold for inclusio= n > > was the same for one technical concept as for another. > > > > (2) *Judgements are not replicable. * > > > > i.e it is not possible to claim that different authors would not have > > come to significantly different conclusions than you have. > > > > (3) *Judgements cannot be contested * > > > > e.g if someone were to disagree with your contention that > > internationalisation has a bearing on the right to political > > participation, on what basis would we adjudicate who is correct? > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Niels ten Oever > > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > To create a next RG version of the draft-tenoever-hrpc-research ID, > it's > > probably good to draft a clear way forward. > > > > We have had some really good comments and reviews during and before > the > > call for adoption, thanks for that, but if we want to bring this > further > > we will need some more reviews. > > > > Two people (Shane and Giovanni) are currently testing the guideline= s > for > > human rights considerations on two actual drafts, which we hope can > be > > presented in Berlin. > > > > Avri mentioned she had elaborate feedback on the current draft and > > Collin Anderson mentioned he would do a review of the draft, which > would > > both be greatly appeciated. > > > > So now we're looking for a third and potentially fourth reviewer wh= o > > could review the draft in within the coming two weeks so we can > create a > > new version ahead of IETF96 in Berlin. > > > > What we're looking for is a review of the whole document with more = or > > less coherent notes, suggestions and/or criticisms with which we > could > > improve the document. > > > > Looking forward to hear from you! > > > > Best, > > > > Niels > > > > > > -- > > Niels ten Oever > > Head of Digital > > > > Article 19 > > www.article19.org > > > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org * > > *E:* scraig@cdt.org | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 > > | **@scottdavidcraig > > > > */ > > /* > > > > > > > -- > > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org * > *E:* scraig@cdt.org | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 | @scottdavidcraig > > > > --=20 *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org * *E:* scraig@cdt.org | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 | @scottdavidcraig --001a113d7f147959e905370bfbb1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Ni= els,=C2=A0
=
Case examples are definitely good evidence in assessing whether a feat= ure could have an effect on a right and whether that effect is significant = enough to warrant addition attention by engineers. =C2=A0

However, I think what is needed is a set of criteria w= hich allows for a transparent and consistent assessment of the claims made = for relationships between features and rights. Case examples could form par= t of the evidence base for this assessment.=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99d like to dr= aw your attention to Section 5.2.2 'Translation human rights to technic= al terms=E2=80=99 where the document=C2=A0claims that the following listed = features impact upon the right to freedom of expression.=C2=A0
=
"The combination of content agnosticism, co= nnectivity, security,=C2=A0privacy (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and open sta= ndards are the=C2=A0technical principles that underlie freedom of expressio= n on the=C2=A0Internet.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0


= (=C2=A0=C2=A0Connectivity )
=C2=A0=C2=A0(=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0Privacy=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0)
=C2=A0=C2=A0(=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Security=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=3D R= ight to freedom of _expression_
=C2=A0=C2=A0(=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Content agnosticism=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0)
=C2=A0= =C2=A0(=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Internationalization=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0)
=C2=A0=C2=A0(=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Censorshi= p resistance=C2=A0=C2=A0)
=C2=A0=C2=A0(=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0Open Standards=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0)
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Heterogeneit= y support )


=

Instead of detailing = the basis on which the claims within it rest, section 5.2.2 just asserts th= em. I think that, at a minimum, there needs to be something inserted into 5= .2.2 that describes how you have made these judgements, or states that judg= ements are based on the intuition of the authors.=C2=A0

Signi= ficantly for the point i=E2=80=99m trying to make, the visual representatio= n in the document appears to make three more claims than the paragraph. I.e= the diagram claims that Heterogeneity support, Internationalisation and ce= nsorship resistance have an effect on the ability to exercise freedom of ex= pression whereas the paragraph does not.=C2=A0
=
This could well be a typo. But what if it=E2=80=99s not?=C2=A0Should we= remove the features from the diagram or add them to the paragraph? How wou= ld we decide whether your paragraph or your diagram is correct without any = agreed criteria for assessing claims?=C2=A0What should be the minimum effec= t that merits inclusion?=C2=A0=C2=A0This is the question that i=E2=80=99ve = been pushing on.

If it is the case that that these relationships have be= en based on authors intuition then we really have to go back to this sectio= n,=C2=A0unpack that black box, and come up with a set of criteria that ensu= res these judgments are being made in an transparent and consistent way.=C2= =A0

Scott =C2=A0


On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Niels ten Oever <nie= ls@article19.org> wrote:

T= hanks for this Scott.

If we look at the current standing practice for security con= siderations then I think we should go for examples instead of a test.

So would more examples (per feature and right impacted) be s= ufficient in your opinion?

Best,

Niels

On 6 Jul 2016 5:40 p.m., Scott Craig <scraig@cdt.org> wrote:
Hey Niels,

Thanks for this.

The fundamen= tal issue I have is that the method you have used to claim links between fe= atures and rights is a black box. There is no discernible basis for the lin= ks other than your own judgement.

I don=E2=80=99t = in any way doubt the quality of your judgement. But I struggle to see how i= t provides sufficient grounds on which to expect every IETF engineer to pay= additional attention to the features in the document.

=
The idea of a test was simply a way to add some rigour to these claims= in order to give them some means of defence if they are challenged and som= e means of adjudication if they are disputed.=C2=A0 Right now you are liter= ally just saying that you talked to some people and then you decided which = things were linked.

" It is on the basis of these vario= us case studies, elaborate discussion on the mailing list and at various IE= TF conferences that we came to determine whether an architectural feature i= s a 'crucial ingredient for enabling the ability to exercise specific r= ights=E2=80=99. "

Simply saying =E2= =80=98We came to determine=E2=80=99 as the method for determining the c= entral claims made in the document just isn=E2=80=99t good enough. You can = describe this process as =C2=A0=E2=80=98proposing vectors of analysis=E2=80= =99 if you want but this is no more than an obfuscated synonym for authors = judgement.

If I was an aircraft engineer and my co= lleagues informed me that the contents of the pre-flight check had been det= ermined by people who had talked to aircraft engineers doing doing =E2=80= =98vectors of analysis=E2=80=99 and that no criteria had then been used to = evaluate and prioritise what we were being asked to check then I would be t= errified for the passengers. This exercise is no less serious and demands n= o less rigour.

If the point of the document is to = ask engineers to give greater attention to the architectural features it hi= ghlights then a black box judgement cannot be a solid enough basis on which= to make that request.

It = would be great to know whether others think the current method is sufficien= t.

Scott Craig


On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:28 PM, Niels t= en Oever <niels@article19.org> wrote:
Hi Scott,

I have been thinking a lot about your suggestions. I think the test you
have been proposing might not be applicable for a technical environment
(but am happy to be proven wrong).

I do not think we can exhaustively list and map the risks that protocols generate in relation to rights.

I would also like to add that the test you propose is neither part nor a requirement in for instance security considerations:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2223#section-9
https://t= ools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552

Similar to the guidelines on security considerations RFC3552 and the
guidelines on privacy considerations RFC6973 we've proposed vectors of<= br> analysis and provided examples.

That these vectors might not be exhaustive and always context dependent
are for me no arguments to hold the draft back.

Furthermore I think the guidelines provide an input for discussion of
drafts during drafting phase, but also when they're discussed for revie= w
in other WGs or later on in the IESG. Decisions and reviews are
documented (and arguments are provided), so I am not sure whether one
can say the standpoints are arbitrary, nor that the judgments are not
replicable or cannot be contested (there are processes for that, that
can get weighed by the appropriate groups). It is not like these
guidelines for considerations are applied blindly.

If I understood you incorrectly, could you perhaps illustrate the test a bit more in the specific case of security considerations?

Best,

Niels



Niels ten Oever
Head of Digital

Article 19
www.article19.org

PGP fingerprint=C2=A0 =C2=A0 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0678B 0= 8B5 A0F2 636D 68E9

On 06/27/2016 12:57 PM, Scott Craig wrote:
> Hi Niels,
>
> I=E2=80=99ve attached a document with comments on the pre-adoption dra= ft.
>
> I am still hoping that someone can address the concerns I raised on th= e
> list about the methodology. I refer specifically to the method by whic= h
> an architectural feature has been (or can be) claimed to 'shape th= e
> enabling environment' for a right.
>
> Raised here https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/= hrpc/current/msg00401.html
> here https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/cu= rrent/msg00408.html
> and here https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrp= c/current/msg00417.html
>
> Though I agree with some of your conclusions, I do not think the
> justification for the claims you have made withstands scrutiny. As a > result it=E2=80=99s presently difficult to see how an engineer could j= ustify
> giving additional attention to the features highlighted in the draft.<= br> >
> To re-state what I said previously:
>
> I think the method you have described (quoted below)*_is great for
> identifying _**/_candidate features_/*. But my concern is that it=E2= =80=99s
> insufficient to determine that a candidate feature is an enabling (or<= br> > restricting) feature.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/" It is on the basis of these various case st= udies, elaborate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion on the mailinglist and at various IETF c= onferences that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*we came to determine whether an architectural feat= ure* is a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'crucial ingredient for enabling the ability to= exercise specific
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rights=E2=80=99. "/
>
> If no explicit test is applied to the candidate features
> after identification, I think this causes three problems:
>
> (1) *Judgements* *are arbitrary=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *
>
> i.e there is no basis on which to argue that the threshold for inclusi= on
> was the same for one technical concept as for another.
>
> (2) *Judgements are not replicable. *
>
> i.e it is not possible to claim that different authors would not have<= br> > come to significantly different conclusions than you have.
>
> (3) *Judgements cannot be contested=C2=A0 *
>
> e.g if someone were to disagree with your contention that
> internationalisation has a bearing on the right to political
> participation, on what basis would we adjudicate who is correct?
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Niels ten Oever <niels@article19.org
> <mailto:niels@article19.org>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi all,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To create a next RG version of the draft-tenoever-h= rpc-research ID, it's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probably good to draft a clear way forward.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We have had some really good comments and reviews d= uring and before the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0call for adoption, thanks for that, but if we want = to bring this further
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we will need some more reviews.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Two people (Shane and Giovanni) are currently testi= ng the guidelines for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0human rights considerations on two actual drafts, w= hich we hope can be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0presented in Berlin.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Avri mentioned she had elaborate feedback on the cu= rrent draft and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Collin Anderson mentioned he would do a review of t= he draft, which would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0both be greatly appeciated.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So now we're looking for a third and potentiall= y fourth reviewer who
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could review the draft in within the coming two wee= ks so we can create a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0new version ahead of IETF96 in Berlin.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What we're looking for is a review of the whole= document with more or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0less coherent notes, suggestions and/or criticisms = with which we could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0improve the document.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Looking forward to hear from you!
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Niels
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Niels ten Oever
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Head of Digital
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Article 19
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0www.article19.org <http://www.article19.org>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PGP fingerprint=C2=A0 =C2=A0 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56= C4
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hrpc mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow
> Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org <https://cdt.org/>*
> *E:* scraig@cdt.or= g <http://cdt.org/= > | *D:* 1.202.407.8887
> <tel:202.407.8887> | **@scottdavidcraig
>
> */
> /*
>




--

Scott Craig=C2=A0|=C2=A0Ford-Moz= illa Fellow
Center for Democracy & Technology= =C2=A0|=C2=A0cdt.org
E:=C2=A0scraig@cdt.org=C2=A0|=C2=A0D:=C2=A01.202.407.8887=C2=A0|=C2=A0= @scottdavidcraig



=



= --

Scott Craig=C2=A0|=C2=A0Ford-Mozilla Fellow
Cent= er for Democracy & Technology=C2=A0|=C2=A0cdt.or= g
E:=C2=A0scraig@cdt.org=C2=A0|=C2=A0D:=C2=A01.202.407.8887=C2=A0|=C2=A0@scottdavidcraig<= /p>



--001a113d7f147959e905370bfbb1-- From nobody Thu Jul 7 08:11:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429D512D7E6 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 08:11:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XEkd7Al8GXaC for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 08:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22e.google.com (mail-vk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85F9212D7E3 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 08:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id d67so24067337vkh.1 for ; Thu, 07 Jul 2016 08:11:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PE9jJ64dbnXDQxoz41/dWb4cwFoJlDe3REsxAv9+JsY=; b=B5tl/0c+GD3RTrJ2EUU22gRjA7nG0LX5MvmV80Ge3eqXSkTKXBpKshSXcI98TFzUah N96i+BbNYJDZu+PiEAh/4d8wcfG+sv2IJeq/Wt9+QXZdKmjZzK/N0rg3rLpjX1uDpyIO PzLnSisyScI6vq/slSWOlFb4HtoSTamsNJ7no= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PE9jJ64dbnXDQxoz41/dWb4cwFoJlDe3REsxAv9+JsY=; b=VXrgjq2gJAEO0oavdj2j52KHzcWvrr9UqauwwtW6WKsnEbZwCJk30mk3rlijjxTfWj J2InOoJcpcNM0i46QLIMe8mKNIhOeJWcmZkv1TwnfOH1B1V0wjr4HHFIMkiiq9q+/BCO ip++Nubevf7o9NZtq5/fvIXajFAFnY/AAjF9erTQTg8/uG4rf/689/wsiHnU0IK4z5RW y0wydAd5nnBkkiMNlXDnZ3HTE3k0DMFetGFfeIkRDoUea0Q+mCKKRJ+sL5LE3axyoht9 9EIZ8jYxYDGs44xeURjZC487ld5IIxHaKYulgeMsFqy+GsPILo+IIg4cDxYnx0lzsqBx UMVw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIj8m/lKoRjRdkMQaB/qgx40SpJdANcYABCWLPDIQCcWNTfMkCE9/FEbcN16UyUhmqSPQsah0Q4TwbGgmiv X-Received: by 10.176.66.1 with SMTP id i1mr300505uai.116.1467904262199; Thu, 07 Jul 2016 08:11:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.29.71 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 08:10:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 11:10:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: Scott Craig Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org Subject: Re: [hrpc] Methods for establishing the relationships between features and rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2016 15:11:06 -0000 On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Scott Craig wrote: > Hey Niels, > > Case examples are definitely good evidence in assessing whether a feature > could have an effect on a right and whether that effect is significant > enough to warrant addition attention by engineers. > > However, I think what is needed is a set of criteria which allows for a > transparent and consistent assessment of the claims made for relationship= s > between features and rights. Case examples could form part of the evidenc= e > base for this assessment. I want to echo Scott's critique here... as someone who has done a lot of qualitative research in my life, it's important that we describe how "interviewing people" leads to "a model for mapping technical features and human rights" which results in the bracketed relationships in the document. > I=E2=80=99d like to draw your attention to Section 5.2.2 'Translation hum= an rights > to technical terms=E2=80=99 where the document claims that the following = listed > features impact upon the right to freedom of expression. > >> "The combination of content agnosticism, connectivity, security, privacy >> (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and open standards are the technical princip= les >> that underlie freedom of expression on the Internet.=E2=80=9D >> >> >> ( Connectivity ) >> ( Privacy ) >> ( Security ) =3D Right to freedom of _expression_ >> ( Content agnosticism ) >> ( Internationalization ) >> ( Censorship resistance ) >> ( Open Standards ) >> ( Heterogeneity support ) > > > > > Instead of detailing the basis on which the claims within it rest, sectio= n > 5.2.2 just asserts them. I think that, at a minimum, there needs to be > something inserted into 5.2.2 that describes how you have made these > judgements, or states that judgements are based on the intuition of the > authors. > > Significantly for the point i=E2=80=99m trying to make, the visual repres= entation in > the document appears to make three more claims than the paragraph. I.e th= e > diagram claims that Heterogeneity support, Internationalisation and > censorship resistance have an effect on the ability to exercise freedom o= f > expression whereas the paragraph does not. > > This could well be a typo. But what if it=E2=80=99s not? Should we remove= the > features from the diagram or add them to the paragraph? How would we deci= de > whether your paragraph or your diagram is correct without any agreed > criteria for assessing claims? What should be the minimum effect that mer= its > inclusion? This is the question that i=E2=80=99ve been pushing on. My naive suggestion here might be to write down in words how each of the technical terms on the LHS individually enable/underlie/impact the right on the RHS. (or if they necessarily work in concert, describe that.) I'm hopeful that after having done that for one or two of the human rights, it might be easier to craft a more generic approach that could work for any rights or rights that may light in our future. Niels, Corrine: are we missing something fundamental? > If it is the case that that these relationships have been based on author= s > intuition then we really have to go back to this section, unpack that bla= ck > box, and come up with a set of criteria that ensures these judgments are > being made in an transparent and consistent way. > > Scott > > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Niels ten Oever wro= te: >> >> Thanks for this Scott. >> >> If we look at the current standing practice for security considerations >> then I think we should go for examples instead of a test. >> >> So would more examples (per feature and right impacted) be sufficient in >> your opinion? >> >> Best, >> >> Niels >> >> On 6 Jul 2016 5:40 p.m., Scott Craig wrote: >> >> Hey Niels, >> >> Thanks for this. >> >> The fundamental issue I have is that the method you have used to claim >> links between features and rights is a black box. There is no discernibl= e >> basis for the links other than your own judgement. >> >> I don=E2=80=99t in any way doubt the quality of your judgement. But I st= ruggle to >> see how it provides sufficient grounds on which to expect every IETF >> engineer to pay additional attention to the features in the document. >> >> The idea of a test was simply a way to add some rigour to these claims i= n >> order to give them some means of defence if they are challenged and some >> means of adjudication if they are disputed. Right now you are literally >> just saying that you talked to some people and then you decided which th= ings >> were linked. >> >> " It is on the basis of these various case studies, elaborate discussion >> on the mailing list and at various IETF conferences that we came to >> determine whether an architectural feature is a 'crucial ingredient for >> enabling the ability to exercise specific rights=E2=80=99. " >> >> >> Simply saying =E2=80=98We came to determine=E2=80=99 as the method for d= etermining the >> central claims made in the document just isn=E2=80=99t good enough. You = can describe >> this process as =E2=80=98proposing vectors of analysis=E2=80=99 if you = want but this is no >> more than an obfuscated synonym for authors judgement. >> >> If I was an aircraft engineer and my colleagues informed me that the >> contents of the pre-flight check had been determined by people who had >> talked to aircraft engineers doing doing =E2=80=98vectors of analysis=E2= =80=99 and that no >> criteria had then been used to evaluate and prioritise what we were bein= g >> asked to check then I would be terrified for the passengers. This exerci= se >> is no less serious and demands no less rigour. >> >> If the point of the document is to ask engineers to give greater attenti= on >> to the architectural features it highlights then a black box judgement >> cannot be a solid enough basis on which to make that request. >> >> It would be great to know whether others think the current method is >> sufficient. >> >> Scott Craig >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:28 PM, Niels ten Oever >> wrote: >> >> Hi Scott, >> >> I have been thinking a lot about your suggestions. I think the test you >> have been proposing might not be applicable for a technical environment >> (but am happy to be proven wrong). >> >> I do not think we can exhaustively list and map the risks that protocols >> generate in relation to rights. >> >> I would also like to add that the test you propose is neither part nor a >> requirement in for instance security considerations: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2223#section-9 >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552 >> >> Similar to the guidelines on security considerations RFC3552 and the >> guidelines on privacy considerations RFC6973 we've proposed vectors of >> analysis and provided examples. >> >> That these vectors might not be exhaustive and always context dependent >> are for me no arguments to hold the draft back. >> >> Furthermore I think the guidelines provide an input for discussion of >> drafts during drafting phase, but also when they're discussed for review >> in other WGs or later on in the IESG. Decisions and reviews are >> documented (and arguments are provided), so I am not sure whether one >> can say the standpoints are arbitrary, nor that the judgments are not >> replicable or cannot be contested (there are processes for that, that >> can get weighed by the appropriate groups). It is not like these >> guidelines for considerations are applied blindly. >> >> If I understood you incorrectly, could you perhaps illustrate the test a >> bit more in the specific case of security considerations? >> >> Best, >> >> Niels >> >> >> >> Niels ten Oever >> Head of Digital >> >> Article 19 >> www.article19.org >> >> PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 >> 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 >> >> On 06/27/2016 12:57 PM, Scott Craig wrote: >> > Hi Niels, >> > >> > I=E2=80=99ve attached a document with comments on the pre-adoption dra= ft. >> > >> > I am still hoping that someone can address the concerns I raised on th= e >> > list about the methodology. I refer specifically to the method by whic= h >> > an architectural feature has been (or can be) claimed to 'shape the >> > enabling environment' for a right. >> > >> > Raised here >> > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00401.html >> > here https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00408.html >> > and here >> > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00417.html >> > >> > Though I agree with some of your conclusions, I do not think the >> > justification for the claims you have made withstands scrutiny. As a >> > result it=E2=80=99s presently difficult to see how an engineer could j= ustify >> > giving additional attention to the features highlighted in the draft. >> > >> > To re-state what I said previously: >> > >> > I think the method you have described (quoted below)*_is great for >> > identifying _**/_candidate features_/*. But my concern is that it=E2= =80=99s >> > insufficient to determine that a candidate feature is an enabling (or >> > restricting) feature. >> > >> > /" It is on the basis of these various case studies, elaborate >> > discussion on the mailinglist and at various IETF conferences that >> > *we came to determine whether an architectural feature* is a >> > 'crucial ingredient for enabling the ability to exercise specific >> > rights=E2=80=99. "/ >> > >> > If no explicit test is applied to the candidate features >> > after identification, I think this causes three problems: >> > >> > (1) *Judgements* *are arbitrary * >> > >> > i.e there is no basis on which to argue that the threshold for inclusi= on >> > was the same for one technical concept as for another. >> > >> > (2) *Judgements are not replicable. * >> > >> > i.e it is not possible to claim that different authors would not have >> > come to significantly different conclusions than you have. >> > >> > (3) *Judgements cannot be contested * >> > >> > e.g if someone were to disagree with your contention that >> > internationalisation has a bearing on the right to political >> > participation, on what basis would we adjudicate who is correct? >> > >> > Scott >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Niels ten Oever > > > wrote: >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > To create a next RG version of the draft-tenoever-hrpc-research ID= , >> > it's >> > probably good to draft a clear way forward. >> > >> > We have had some really good comments and reviews during and befor= e >> > the >> > call for adoption, thanks for that, but if we want to bring this >> > further >> > we will need some more reviews. >> > >> > Two people (Shane and Giovanni) are currently testing the guidelin= es >> > for >> > human rights considerations on two actual drafts, which we hope ca= n >> > be >> > presented in Berlin. >> > >> > Avri mentioned she had elaborate feedback on the current draft and >> > Collin Anderson mentioned he would do a review of the draft, which >> > would >> > both be greatly appeciated. >> > >> > So now we're looking for a third and potentially fourth reviewer w= ho >> > could review the draft in within the coming two weeks so we can >> > create a >> > new version ahead of IETF96 in Berlin. >> > >> > What we're looking for is a review of the whole document with more >> > or >> > less coherent notes, suggestions and/or criticisms with which we >> > could >> > improve the document. >> > >> > Looking forward to hear from you! >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Niels >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Niels ten Oever >> > Head of Digital >> > >> > Article 19 >> > www.article19.org >> > >> > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 >> > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > hrpc mailing list >> > hrpc@irtf.org >> > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow >> > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org * >> > *E:* scraig@cdt.org | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 >> > | **@scottdavidcraig >> > >> > */ >> > /* >> > >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Scott Craig | Ford-Mozilla Fellow >> Center for Democracy & Technology | cdt.org >> E: scraig@cdt.org | D: 1.202.407.8887 | @scottdavidcraig >> >> >> > > > > -- > > Scott Craig | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > Center for Democracy & Technology | cdt.org > E: scraig@cdt.org | D: 1.202.407.8887 | @scottdavidcraig > > > --=20 Joseph Lorenzo Hall Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org] 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 From nobody Thu Jul 7 11:31:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF14E12D0EB for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 11:31:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FSL_HELO_HOME=1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PBdJGno5z6r0 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 11:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time-travellers.nl.eu.org (c.time-travellers.nl.eu.org [IPv6:2a02:2770::21a:4aff:fea3:eeaa]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 166B5126B6D for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2016 11:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2001:470:78c8:2:224:9bff:fe13:3a9c] (helo=pallas.home.time-travellers.org) by time-travellers.nl.eu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1bLE4e-0003hw-Ci for hrpc@irtf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2016 18:30:56 +0000 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 20:30:54 +0200 From: Shane Kerr To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20160707203054.49352bc9@pallas.home.time-travellers.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.13.2 (GTK+ 2.24.30; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Sig_/XuaYE3mBCL2WGyKNlSHOJWa"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Feedback on guidelines on human rights considerations X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2016 18:31:03 -0000 --Sig_/XuaYE3mBCL2WGyKNlSHOJWa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I volunteered to try to apply the guidelines in draft-tenoever-hrpc-research to a draft that I have been working on with some colleagues. Niels asked me to send my observations to the list. Summary =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Basically I think that it is a useful checklist. I think the list can be shortened (pointed out in detail below). Indeed I worry a bit that it is too long, even with a few items removed. Perhaps something can be written about the relative importance of the items? My Draft =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I'm working with my colleagues on a "DNS over HTTP" draft. This describes a protocol for encapsulating DNS messages and then sending them over HTTP... kind of a protocol-specific tunnel in a way. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-dns-wireformat-http/ We don't really introduce any new protocols, but kind of duct-tape two very popular protocols together.=20 This is very much useful as a tool for circumventing censorship (at least the DNS part of censorship). Highlights of the review =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I have a detailed review which is probably only interesting for my co-authors and myself. Here are some highlights that I think might be interesting for this group. BTW, while I have questions below, it's not really so important to give *me* answers. Instead the hrpc draft should be clarified so that people using it don't end up confused too. (Although it is possible that I am just easily confused...) 5.3.2.1.2. Privacy I had not looked at RFC 6973 section 7. This was a useful recommendation. *** Are there experts we can ask for advice in this area? Maybe setting up a list of people willing to give advice would be useful... 5.3.2.1.8. Heterogeneity Support *** This one confuses me. Is it asking if the protocol will work in heterogeneous environments or what? 5.3.2.1.9. Anonymity I had not looked at RFC 6973 section 6. This was a useful recommendation. 5.3.2.1.12. Localization *** This one confuses me. Even though it references Internationalization I still don't know how this is different or what I am supposed to be considering. 5.3.2.1.15. Confidentiality As a DNS protocol, DNS over HTTP exposes a ton of confidential information! I think that I'll add a note in the draft about this, and mention that proxies may want to consider what and how they log information, as well as things like DNS query minimization. *** Thanks, this was a big "win". :) 5.3.2.1.18. Acceptability *** I'm not clear how this differs from accessibility. 5.3.2.1.19. Availability *** I'm not sure how this is different from open standards, although I suppose it could be related to legal restrictions (such as laws against encryption or the like)? 5.3.2.1.20. Adaptability *** I'm not really sure what to do about this, or what it means exactly. We have two inter-operable implementations, both open source, if that is somehow related? Conclusion =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D My own feeling is that while this checklist is helpful in the current form, it should probably be shortened and clarified. Cheers, -- Shane --Sig_/XuaYE3mBCL2WGyKNlSHOJWa Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAld+n94ACgkQMsfZxBO4kbTzuwCePjdu4y8C4PLp1saorcskpXr5 uIMAoKuxismJCQiO0HFt4yWmXAyUqfpk =+2to -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/XuaYE3mBCL2WGyKNlSHOJWa-- From nobody Fri Jul 8 12:18:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3562512D686 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 12:18:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EsJl1xlfb2u4 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 12:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22e.google.com (mail-vk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B132812D189 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 12:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id v6so66868901vkb.2 for ; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 12:18:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=k68oubFop6ByMy0N3fXDgiUq44ON02mnuPEOulZhfJc=; b=lmxF7kkCwyhYjVquF68Q1wgoKVx16ZGxr5xTYxHImGPW1fZUFhuTANi9s/wv8I3Tvv 9s5ro5iCi+3oQC5I04Sjwn9L8MGS7V+GQ24Y4pUC15omHvcQgHv+59j6bn9s3alSoW2n WZJ06M7CvjPuEAJotvNgBasYTbbGKZ3MIaxms= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=k68oubFop6ByMy0N3fXDgiUq44ON02mnuPEOulZhfJc=; b=j2D50HtnEmrZWh4TDJIRw4KCE1eRbaI6HVFZC8DDBwrkTImvmeZNsyciiyWKuk0HAK PuAkRg5y8NIZ61XzxM21khpm53No66QXSioZNvZPLXPdPLgjHfcgyuDhEsCuV23Fh662 GgZOL37isLy28ymp/l91/kvDo2+EwFOZdnijGQuEDmaqpDy8l71bYb6/x8myIA+RfEqu nh2mG5vbq32zn3wI3nOUcWdsqzefs5W0mdDdMwKMBk2Z4inAq3NtR3+/dQHctZ40QTOx vyDquDi/0iTT5WGC9AC8V1c+2Pcg4bD4YqcR0DVzj4qu5c0Spe43xBx4W2oG93HBcKeE 9L9w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIJcveQEu6MZjzGGTQqBP5VGa/snj8m40fISlzsP9Sb/cn/NnOq8zdxgKkXfSt8vOM83LFqvRV0ezPFRzks X-Received: by 10.31.115.1 with SMTP id o1mr2955811vkc.67.1468005522746; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 12:18:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.29.71 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 12:18:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160707203054.49352bc9@pallas.home.time-travellers.org> References: <20160707203054.49352bc9@pallas.home.time-travellers.org> From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 15:18:23 -0400 Message-ID: To: Shane Kerr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Subject: Re: [hrpc] Feedback on guidelines on human rights considerations X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2016 19:18:46 -0000 This is great to see, Shane... On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Shane Kerr wrote: > > 5.3.2.1.2. Privacy > > I had not looked at RFC 6973 section 7. This was a useful recommendation. > > *** Are there experts we can ask for advice in this area? Maybe setting > up a list of people willing to give advice would be useful... There is ietf-privacy@ietf.org although I forget what purpose that serves... and there is SAAG, but that might be too big of a tent for this purpose. I'd be happy to find a home for this kind of function, although I suspect more senior IETF folks (Stephen!) might have more well-formed thoughts (although I'd still be willing to coordinate, lead, etc.) best, joe -- Joseph Lorenzo Hall Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org] 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 From nobody Mon Jul 11 08:34:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA5B12D563 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 08:34:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.188 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.188 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wVjqeWCmFxBF for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 08:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raoul.w3.org (raoul.w3.org [IPv6:2001:470:8b2d:804:52:12:128:0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B377B12D583 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 08:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [213.204.113.33] (helo=[192.168.0.103]) by raoul.w3.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1bMdDz-0001ts-Rp; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:34:24 +0000 To: Niels ten Oever , Eliot Lear , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <15cc0479-b312-598c-4ff1-7fd2c7c4f950@article19.org> <9a939f9a-f2dd-fe1b-c3d5-7af0bb20c034@article19.org> From: Harry Halpin Message-ID: <5783BC7B.70004@w3.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 17:34:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9a939f9a-f2dd-fe1b-c3d5-7af0bb20c034@article19.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] reviews by Harry Halpin X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:34:28 -0000 On 07/07/2016 11:45 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi Elliot, > > On 07/07/2016 11:26 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Hi Niels, >> >> >> On 7/6/16 8:09 PM, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> >>>> @@You should not patents, and the destrutive role patents have had in >>>> holding back cryptography, in particular elliptic curves or even >>>> Schnorr signatures, and how the IETF "Note Well" and W3C >>>> "Royalty-Free licensing Patent policy" given a definition of open >>>> stanardization in terms of intellectual property. >>> Could you provide us some text for this? >>> >>> >> Much as I agree with Harry's concerns about patents, I'm a little >> nervous that your document will become the kitchen sink to discuss all >> evils. That to me is a separate document. One could in fact write a >> book – dare I say manifesto – on that subject alone... >> > I recognize your concern, and it is by no means my intention to make > this draft a manifesto for everything that is right/wrong in protocols, > but rather a way to make impacts on peoples rights more visible and give > people a structure and document their decisions. Yes, however it's important to distinguish 'open standards', as defined by a multi-stakeholder process and some reasonable way of dealing with patents, versus closed standards done by closed committees that, despite using the term 'standard', may involve intellectual property that harms implementation by vendors, including but not limited to open-source. Thus, I think as an important part of the appeal of the open internet (and it's perhaps the primary reason why the W3C has member companies) and in particular given the well-known problems in cryptography resulting from patents, it deserves to be mentioned. > > As Scott made it clear, we should make it very clear why we think this > is the case, preferably based on other research, examples and RFCs to > show that the relations between rights and protocol/practice are not > made intuitively, but rather building on best practices and real world > situations. > > Best, > > Niels > >> Eliot >> >> From nobody Mon Jul 11 12:39:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3272F12D51C for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 12:39:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.188 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.188 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VNI0CFeEm34C for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 12:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raoul.w3.org (raoul.w3.org [IPv6:2001:470:8b2d:804:52:12:128:0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 932DD12D0EC for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 12:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [213.204.113.33] (helo=[192.168.0.103]) by raoul.w3.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1bMh36-000EF9-Ma; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:39:24 +0000 To: Niels ten Oever , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <15cc0479-b312-598c-4ff1-7fd2c7c4f950@article19.org> From: Harry Halpin Message-ID: <5783F5E7.5020506@w3.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 21:39:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15cc0479-b312-598c-4ff1-7fd2c7c4f950@article19.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] reviews by Harry Halpin X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:39:30 -0000 On 07/06/2016 08:09 PM, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi Harry,=20 These are all minor optional notes, and I'm happy to see the draft go forward without them. > Corinne and I have went through your comments, for which I would like t= o > thank you again. Most issues have been addressed in the draft that is > about to be published (for which you can find the md here: > https://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/blob/master/draft-research.md > , I think it made the draft much better, thanks a lot. There are a few > things unresovled though: > >> =C2=B7 Federation The possibility of connecting autonomous syste= ms >> into single distributed system. @@: Distibuted system has a >> well-defined meaning in computer science. I'd say 'decentralized' >> here and note that 'autonomous and possibly centralized' > We have went with this solution because there is a lot of contention > about what 'decentralized' is. Therefore we said that everything that i= s > federated is by defintion distributed. > Are you proposing: > =C2=B7 Federation The possibility of connecting autonomous system= s into > single autonomous and possibly centralized system.? > Am not sure if it would be much clearer, I also do think that it is in > line with the provided definition of distributed system. That edit would be a bit backwards. The simplest edit would be "The possibility of connecting autonomous systems into single system" Since the term 'decentralization' can be difficult (unlike 'distributed', it isn't well defined in computer science), the more complex edit would be "The possibility of connecting autonomous and possibly centralized systems into single system without a central authority." > >> =C2=B7 Methodology @@: While interesting from an academic >> perspective, it seems like this should be in an appendix or towards >> the end and referenced > I think we'll keep this here, because it is an IRTF document (focusing > on research). If we want to guidelines to be normative or relevant for > the IETF we will need to bring it up there. OK > >> =C2=B7 @@: Noting Moxie's SSLstrip makes this capability availabl= e to >> almost anyone, as its is likely a *design flaw* that the identifier >> of the encrypted version (https://) of a resource is different than >> an unencrypted one (http://), although it is likely a design flaw >> that is is too late to fix. Only with HSTS and certificate pinning >> (failed IETF draft for it as "Tack") can this attack really be dealt >> with. > I do recognize this problem, but am not sure whether adding this hear > will add much to the purpose of the draft, but curious to hear opinions= > from others on this. If you are going to discuss the use of TLS, this should probably be mentioned. In general, bolting on privacy and crypto after a protocol like HTTP is already deployed is hard. I would note that "HTTP upgrading to HTTPS is also vulnerable to having an attacker remove the "S" in any links to HTTPS URIs from a web-page transferred in cleartext over HTTP, an attack called "SSL Stripping" [1]. Thus, for high security use of HTTPS IETF standards such as HSTS [2] and certificate pinning should be used [3]." [1] https://moxie.org/software/sslstrip/ [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6797/ [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7469/ >> =C2=B7 @@IETF does not in general have much >> work in standardizing P2P protocols. Should it? Should this be >> included if the protocol was designed outside the IEF? > There is increasingly work on P2P in IETF, am not sure why we should > exclude this (RFC5128, RFC5694, but also: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/p2psip/charter/ ) "Defined" here was the word that confused me. SIP is just a multimedia-over-IP protocol (used mostly for voice in my experience), and p2psip is just a way of doing SIP with a p2p discovery service, i.e. a DHT - unlike, say, most uses of WebRTC. Thus, P2PSIP is more of a corner-case than a fundamental standard for P2P. I am not aware of more generic and popular deployed P2P frameworks (thinking Bitcoin, Tor, BitTorrent, even FreeNet) that were standardized at the IETF. So, I'd rephrase the sentence as "Peer-to-Peer (P2P) is a network architecture in which all the participant nodes can be responsible for the storage and dissemination of information from any other node (as defined in {{RFC7574}}, an IETF standard that uses a P2P architeture)." My general take on P2P is summed up by Phil Agre quote: "Architecture is politics, but it is not a substitute for politics" in his article "p2p and the promise of internet equality." In fact, due to sybil attacks that are quite easy to mount today, I tend to discourage their use in practical applications by at-risk human rights defenders.=20 > > >> @@You should not patents, and the destrutive role patents have had in >> holding back cryptography, in particular elliptic curves or even >> Schnorr signatures, and how the IETF "Note Well" and W3C >> "Royalty-Free licensing Patent policy" given a definition of open >> stanardization in terms of intellectual property. > Could you provide us some text for this? "Do you normatively reference another standard that is not available without cost? Are you aware of any patents that would prevent your standard from being fully implemented?" =2E. "All standards that need to be normatively implemented should be freely available and with reasonable protection for patent infringement claims, so it can also be implemented in open source or free software. Patents have often held back open standardization or been used against those deploying open stadards, particularly in the domain of cryptography [1]. Patents in open standards or in normative references to other standards should have a patent disclosure [2], royalty-free licensing [3], or some other form of reasonable protection. Reasonable patent protection should includes but is not limited to cryptographic primitives. [1] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/11/newegg-on-trial-mystery-compan= y-tqp-re-writes-the-history-of-encryption/ [2] https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well.html [3] https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/ > > Thanks again for this great review. > > Best, > > Niels > > > > > > From nobody Mon Jul 11 13:14:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B93112D0E0 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 13:14:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xrNNfCdilcce for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 13:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DA9A12D0C7 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 13:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C8EC83B168; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:14:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 393F9A769088; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:14:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.70] (sd5112335.adsl.online.nl [213.17.35.53]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 21FD383B168; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:14:32 +0000 (UTC) To: Scott Craig References: From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <5c372fed-4623-7498-7837-82dc967b802c@article19.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 22:14:31 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="p214aqceDPaVuBGgRrTQLv0x9d0E3fDdP" Archived-At: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, Joe Hall Subject: Re: [hrpc] Methods for establishing the relationships between features and rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:14:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --p214aqceDPaVuBGgRrTQLv0x9d0E3fDdP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Scott, Am happy to work on (more) examples (as were mentioned in the interviews, and found in the research). This would then be similar to the documentation of attack vector examples in the Privacy Considerations Guidelines and the Security Considerations Guidelines. Corinne and I will come up with this shortly. I am afraid though that it will lead to a duplication of the examples mentioned under the considerations themselves though (at the bottom of the ID), which would lead to an even longer document. But if that's what's needed, here we go :) Best, Niels Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 On 07/07/2016 03:51 PM, Scott Craig wrote: > Hey Niels,=20 >=20 > Case examples are definitely good evidence in assessing whether a > feature could have an effect on a right and whether that effect is > significant enough to warrant addition attention by engineers. =20 >=20 > However, I think what is needed is a set of criteria which allows for a= > transparent and consistent assessment of the claims made for > relationships between features and rights. Case examples could form par= t > of the evidence base for this assessment.=20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99d like to draw your attention to Section 5.2.2 'Translation h= uman > rights to technical terms=E2=80=99 where the document claims that the f= ollowing > listed features impact upon the right to freedom of expression.=20 >=20 > "The combination of content agnosticism, connectivity, > security, privacy (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and open standards ar= e > the technical principles that underlie freedom of expression on > the Internet.=E2=80=9D=20 >=20 >=20 > ( Connectivity ) > ( Privacy ) > ( Security ) =3D Right to freedom of _expres= sion_ > ( Content agnosticism ) > ( Internationalization ) > ( Censorship resistance ) > ( Open Standards ) > ( Heterogeneity support ) >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Instead of detailing the basis on which the claims within it rest, > section 5.2.2 just asserts them. I think that, at a minimum, there need= s > to be something inserted into 5.2.2 that describes how you have made > these judgements, or states that judgements are based on the intuition > of the authors.=20 >=20 > Significantly for the point i=E2=80=99m trying to make, the visual > representation in the document appears to make three more claims than > the paragraph. I.e the diagram claims that Heterogeneity support, > Internationalisation and censorship resistance have an effect on the > ability to exercise freedom of expression whereas the paragraph does no= t.=20 >=20 > This could well be a typo. But what if it=E2=80=99s not? Should we remo= ve the > features from the diagram or add them to the paragraph? How would we > decide whether your paragraph or your diagram is correct without any > agreed criteria for assessing claims? What should be the minimum effect= > that merits inclusion? This is the question that i=E2=80=99ve been pus= hing on. >=20 > If it is the case that that these relationships have been based on > authors intuition then we really have to go back to this section, unpac= k > that black box, and come up with a set of criteria that ensures these > judgments are being made in an transparent and consistent way.=20 >=20 > Scott =20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Niels ten Oever > wrote: >=20 > Thanks for this Scott. >=20 > If we look at the current standing practice for security > considerations then I think we should go for examples instead of a = test. >=20 > So would more examples (per feature and right impacted) be > sufficient in your opinion? >=20 > Best, >=20 > Niels >=20 > On 6 Jul 2016 5:40 p.m., Scott Craig > wrote: >=20 > Hey Niels, >=20 > Thanks for this. >=20 > The fundamental issue I have is that the method you have used t= o > claim links between features and rights is a black box. There i= s > no discernible basis for the links other than your own judgemen= t. >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t in any way doubt the quality of your judgement.= But I > struggle to see how it provides sufficient grounds on which to > expect every IETF engineer to pay additional attention to the > features in the document. >=20 > The idea of a test was simply a way to add some rigour to these= > claims in order to give them some means of defence if they are > challenged and some means of adjudication if they are disputed.= =20 > Right now you are literally just saying that you talked to some= > people and then you decided which things were linked. >=20 > " It is on the basis of these various case studies, > elaborate discussion on the mailing list and at various IET= F > conferences that we came to determine whether an > architectural feature is a 'crucial ingredient for enabling= > the ability to exercise specific rights=E2=80=99. " >=20 >=20 > Simply saying /=E2=80=98We came to determine=E2=80=99/ as the m= ethod for > determining the central claims made in the document just isn=E2= =80=99t > good enough. You can describe this process as =E2=80=98proposi= ng > vectors of analysis=E2=80=99 if you want but this is no more th= an an > obfuscated synonym for authors judgement. >=20 > If I was an aircraft engineer and my colleagues informed me tha= t > the contents of the pre-flight check had been determined by > people who had talked to aircraft engineers doing doing =E2=80=98= vectors > of analysis=E2=80=99 and that no criteria had then been used to= evaluate > and prioritise what we were being asked to check then I would b= e > terrified for the passengers. This exercise is no less serious > and demands no less rigour. >=20 > If the point of the document is to ask engineers to give greate= r > attention to the architectural features it highlights then a > black box judgement cannot be a solid enough basis on which to > make that request. >=20 > It would be great to know whether others think the current > method is sufficient. >=20 > Scott Craig >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:28 PM, Niels ten Oever > > wrote: >=20 > Hi Scott, >=20 > I have been thinking a lot about your suggestions. I think > the test you > have been proposing might not be applicable for a technical= > environment > (but am happy to be proven wrong). >=20 > I do not think we can exhaustively list and map the risks > that protocols > generate in relation to rights. >=20 > I would also like to add that the test you propose is > neither part nor a > requirement in for instance security considerations: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2223#section-9 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552 >=20 > Similar to the guidelines on security considerations RFC355= 2 > and the > guidelines on privacy considerations RFC6973 we've proposed= > vectors of > analysis and provided examples. >=20 > That these vectors might not be exhaustive and always > context dependent > are for me no arguments to hold the draft back. >=20 > Furthermore I think the guidelines provide an input for > discussion of > drafts during drafting phase, but also when they're > discussed for review > in other WGs or later on in the IESG. Decisions and reviews= are > documented (and arguments are provided), so I am not sure > whether one > can say the standpoints are arbitrary, nor that the > judgments are not > replicable or cannot be contested (there are processes for > that, that > can get weighed by the appropriate groups). It is not like = these > guidelines for considerations are applied blindly. >=20 > If I understood you incorrectly, could you perhaps > illustrate the test a > bit more in the specific case of security considerations? >=20 > Best, >=20 > Niels >=20 >=20 >=20 > Niels ten Oever > Head of Digital >=20 > Article 19 > www.article19.org >=20 > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 >=20 > On 06/27/2016 12:57 PM, Scott Craig wrote: > > Hi Niels, > > > > I=E2=80=99ve attached a document with comments on the pre= -adoption > draft. > > > > I am still hoping that someone can address the concerns I= > raised on the > > list about the methodology. I refer specifically to the > method by which > > an architectural feature has been (or can be) claimed to > 'shape the > > enabling environment' for a right. > > > > Raised here > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00401= =2Ehtml > > here > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00408= =2Ehtml > > and here > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00417= =2Ehtml > > > > Though I agree with some of your conclusions, I do not > think the > > justification for the claims you have made withstands > scrutiny. As a > > result it=E2=80=99s presently difficult to see how an eng= ineer > could justify > > giving additional attention to the features highlighted i= n > the draft. > > > > To re-state what I said previously: > > > > I think the method you have described (quoted below)*_is > great for > > identifying _**/_candidate features_/*. But my concern is= > that it=E2=80=99s > > insufficient to determine that a candidate feature is an > enabling (or > > restricting) feature. > > > > /" It is on the basis of these various case studies, > elaborate > > discussion on the mailinglist and at various IETF > conferences that > > *we came to determine whether an architectural > feature* is a > > 'crucial ingredient for enabling the ability to > exercise specific > > rights=E2=80=99. "/ > > > > If no explicit test is applied to the candidate features > > after identification, I think this causes three problems:= > > > > (1) *Judgements* *are arbitrary * > > > > i.e there is no basis on which to argue that the threshol= d > for inclusion > > was the same for one technical concept as for another. > > > > (2) *Judgements are not replicable. * > > > > i.e it is not possible to claim that different authors > would not have > > come to significantly different conclusions than you have= =2E > > > > (3) *Judgements cannot be contested * > > > > e.g if someone were to disagree with your contention that= > > internationalisation has a bearing on the right to politi= cal > > participation, on what basis would we adjudicate who is > correct? > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Niels ten Oever > > > >= > > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > To create a next RG version of the > draft-tenoever-hrpc-research ID, it's > > probably good to draft a clear way forward. > > > > We have had some really good comments and reviews > during and before the > > call for adoption, thanks for that, but if we want to= > bring this further > > we will need some more reviews. > > > > Two people (Shane and Giovanni) are currently testing= > the guidelines for > > human rights considerations on two actual drafts, > which we hope can be > > presented in Berlin. > > > > Avri mentioned she had elaborate feedback on the > current draft and > > Collin Anderson mentioned he would do a review of the= > draft, which would > > both be greatly appeciated. > > > > So now we're looking for a third and potentially > fourth reviewer who > > could review the draft in within the coming two weeks= > so we can create a > > new version ahead of IETF96 in Berlin. > > > > What we're looking for is a review of the whole > document with more or > > less coherent notes, suggestions and/or criticisms > with which we could > > improve the document. > > > > Looking forward to hear from you! > > > > Best, > > > > Niels > > > > > > -- > > Niels ten Oever > > Head of Digital > > > > Article 19 > > www.article19.org > > > > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org * > > *E:* scraig@cdt.org | > *D:* 1.202.407.8887 > > > | **@scottdavidcrai= g > > > > */ > > /* > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org = * > *E:* scraig@cdt.org > | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 | **@scottdavidcraig >=20 > */ > /* >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org * > *E:* scraig@cdt.org | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 > | **@scottdavidcraig >=20 > */ > /* >=20 --p214aqceDPaVuBGgRrTQLv0x9d0E3fDdP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXg/4nAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjpUhcH/0yYK8TC5/MPsOuzJOQFxmCI me2/yxj+nJ0yIv9zReKVZi62bKqavC3UQnC0I2ps/LEcAit3EXadIi7lJYHEd9O/ xoTrydK6Szo9kJA62g5VNP4hH7DyOpz3hgLFGxyht1PBe4dk/FMnijOromxlBC/7 WDVIYfUyoLMbnS+4oMwLvIqonEDrA7YVT12CaIHSjO41/yuX0fzfO2mx2KbduOWq OQE9KJr2LXvLEt65jINVuivzTg3Kuvz1La8Yr9LBZoyZMPtypfkz6MbYFJcJ9PIV hrINIJuS52abo34XTOJHzjuWmUh2cwuKf5DpKVC3Lgxbnw0aaebCD+9k7ZMW8oM= =m2Un -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --p214aqceDPaVuBGgRrTQLv0x9d0E3fDdP-- From nobody Mon Jul 11 15:27:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C217C12D0BF for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:26:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vihXru0m6gy3 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22e.google.com (mail-oi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF43D12B03B for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id u201so168533359oie.0 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:26:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=qc5AEYgajT9vab35Qw49m12JTZLHMF1X65xNgV7YXRU=; b=RJFsea9HNQ0ueLuMktmLGH+L7m4mBKWYFxKaVSSJIlCX0V164M07kQe70lxXgGkQ7w 5V6rp8MYCChVVpQ/bHwVPwM92n4oBXx5u7OvG313YZfOrsCP8uxGDY1DRDHA5byD7r0v Fl18xjs+fUcKXMKdnlf6WMbTuXEv9ScUUNgDo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=qc5AEYgajT9vab35Qw49m12JTZLHMF1X65xNgV7YXRU=; b=jElHLT1NuAZC1ZZet5L2Af5U8F1X/nYWQHcxthvB4TvuV0pCreehTRoBAl+BSag4zz rRvq4+iwhBOsNXlfmS1FH9q7o4jfzz0RyXVbBcsPbq+T7BLK6/wG/5ezVMLtLt3EYIoB WryGkqSIjwi3oK32gTMPyozCM0/4oL5Y/Cy8O9MRaGuNmR0Du3BwZ1zznSZDzuh6ZWTy N7djbxtgHc9fbIERlaiMd9mEnq8/Uclo4QgIbU7BbVsNCBrSVUy77cTf/hIbLHjuvCQN zzNDhlKNqxwpRyJr+BKK5tE6TA9ljRS6AHv+Gs2p2o8uuZJGxrkPbENd519s0lu+ALIi budA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKOIkJhLsGmb2RGZ+NcK980XuzXYL1GfSzmXzysOdUkZWFUwxPEgf9vSLpNl8DWpQ30E8GDenwXErHwEbjA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.73.80 with SMTP id w77mr5954874oia.37.1468276014906; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.1.197 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.1.197 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:26:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5c372fed-4623-7498-7837-82dc967b802c@article19.org> References: <5c372fed-4623-7498-7837-82dc967b802c@article19.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 23:26:54 +0100 Message-ID: From: Scott Craig To: Niels ten Oever Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113de3684d1390053763a689 Archived-At: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, Joe Hall Subject: Re: [hrpc] Methods for establishing the relationships between features and rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 22:27:00 -0000 --001a113de3684d1390053763a689 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Niels, I'm not asking for more examples i'm asking for one of two things; Either 1. That you to describe the method by which you go from speaking to people to concluding that a feature has a significant enough effect on a right to merit inclusion in section 5.2.2. Or 2. That if you don't have a method and this has just been black box authors judgement then the list needs to develop one - for all of the reasons I've set out before. A test being my initial proposal for one method to judge the relevance of a feature upon a right outside of the current black box. Joe's proposal seemed like a sensible way to begin pulling back the curtain figuring out what the method was (or could be). I don't understand why you are sidestepping the issue and focusing on examples instead. Scott On 11 Jul 2016 9:14 p.m., "Niels ten Oever" wrote: > Dear Scott, > > Am happy to work on (more) examples (as were mentioned in the > interviews, and found in the research). This would then be similar to > the documentation of attack vector examples in the Privacy > Considerations Guidelines and the Security Considerations Guidelines. > Corinne and I will come up with this shortly. > > I am afraid though that it will lead to a duplication of the examples > mentioned under the considerations themselves though (at the bottom of > the ID), which would lead to an even longer document. > > But if that's what's needed, here we go :) > > Best, > > Niels > > > > Niels ten Oever > Head of Digital > > Article 19 > www.article19.org > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > On 07/07/2016 03:51 PM, Scott Craig wrote: > > Hey Niels, > > > > Case examples are definitely good evidence in assessing whether a > > feature could have an effect on a right and whether that effect is > > significant enough to warrant addition attention by engineers. > > > > However, I think what is needed is a set of criteria which allows for a > > transparent and consistent assessment of the claims made for > > relationships between features and rights. Case examples could form par= t > > of the evidence base for this assessment. > > > > I=E2=80=99d like to draw your attention to Section 5.2.2 'Translation h= uman > > rights to technical terms=E2=80=99 where the document claims that the f= ollowing > > listed features impact upon the right to freedom of expression. > > > > "The combination of content agnosticism, connectivity, > > security, privacy (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and open standards ar= e > > the technical principles that underlie freedom of expression on > > the Internet.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > ( Connectivity ) > > ( Privacy ) > > ( Security ) =3D Right to freedom of > _expression_ > > ( Content agnosticism ) > > ( Internationalization ) > > ( Censorship resistance ) > > ( Open Standards ) > > ( Heterogeneity support ) > > > > > > > > > > Instead of detailing the basis on which the claims within it rest, > > section 5.2.2 just asserts them. I think that, at a minimum, there need= s > > to be something inserted into 5.2.2 that describes how you have made > > these judgements, or states that judgements are based on the intuition > > of the authors. > > > > Significantly for the point i=E2=80=99m trying to make, the visual > > representation in the document appears to make three more claims than > > the paragraph. I.e the diagram claims that Heterogeneity support, > > Internationalisation and censorship resistance have an effect on the > > ability to exercise freedom of expression whereas the paragraph does no= t. > > > > This could well be a typo. But what if it=E2=80=99s not? Should we remo= ve the > > features from the diagram or add them to the paragraph? How would we > > decide whether your paragraph or your diagram is correct without any > > agreed criteria for assessing claims? What should be the minimum effect > > that merits inclusion? This is the question that i=E2=80=99ve been pus= hing on. > > > > If it is the case that that these relationships have been based on > > authors intuition then we really have to go back to this section, unpac= k > > that black box, and come up with a set of criteria that ensures these > > judgments are being made in an transparent and consistent way. > > > > Scott > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Niels ten Oever > > wrote: > > > > Thanks for this Scott. > > > > If we look at the current standing practice for security > > considerations then I think we should go for examples instead of a > test. > > > > So would more examples (per feature and right impacted) be > > sufficient in your opinion? > > > > Best, > > > > Niels > > > > On 6 Jul 2016 5:40 p.m., Scott Craig > > wrote: > > > > Hey Niels, > > > > Thanks for this. > > > > The fundamental issue I have is that the method you have used t= o > > claim links between features and rights is a black box. There i= s > > no discernible basis for the links other than your own judgemen= t. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t in any way doubt the quality of your judgement.= But I > > struggle to see how it provides sufficient grounds on which to > > expect every IETF engineer to pay additional attention to the > > features in the document. > > > > The idea of a test was simply a way to add some rigour to these > > claims in order to give them some means of defence if they are > > challenged and some means of adjudication if they are disputed. > > Right now you are literally just saying that you talked to some > > people and then you decided which things were linked. > > > > " It is on the basis of these various case studies, > > elaborate discussion on the mailing list and at various IET= F > > conferences that we came to determine whether an > > architectural feature is a 'crucial ingredient for enabling > > the ability to exercise specific rights=E2=80=99. " > > > > > > Simply saying /=E2=80=98We came to determine=E2=80=99/ as the m= ethod for > > determining the central claims made in the document just isn=E2= =80=99t > > good enough. You can describe this process as =E2=80=98proposi= ng > > vectors of analysis=E2=80=99 if you want but this is no more th= an an > > obfuscated synonym for authors judgement. > > > > If I was an aircraft engineer and my colleagues informed me tha= t > > the contents of the pre-flight check had been determined by > > people who had talked to aircraft engineers doing doing =E2=80= =98vectors > > of analysis=E2=80=99 and that no criteria had then been used to= evaluate > > and prioritise what we were being asked to check then I would b= e > > terrified for the passengers. This exercise is no less serious > > and demands no less rigour. > > > > If the point of the document is to ask engineers to give greate= r > > attention to the architectural features it highlights then a > > black box judgement cannot be a solid enough basis on which to > > make that request. > > > > It would be great to know whether others think the current > > method is sufficient. > > > > Scott Craig > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:28 PM, Niels ten Oever > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Scott, > > > > I have been thinking a lot about your suggestions. I think > > the test you > > have been proposing might not be applicable for a technical > > environment > > (but am happy to be proven wrong). > > > > I do not think we can exhaustively list and map the risks > > that protocols > > generate in relation to rights. > > > > I would also like to add that the test you propose is > > neither part nor a > > requirement in for instance security considerations: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2223#section-9 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552 > > > > Similar to the guidelines on security considerations RFC355= 2 > > and the > > guidelines on privacy considerations RFC6973 we've proposed > > vectors of > > analysis and provided examples. > > > > That these vectors might not be exhaustive and always > > context dependent > > are for me no arguments to hold the draft back. > > > > Furthermore I think the guidelines provide an input for > > discussion of > > drafts during drafting phase, but also when they're > > discussed for review > > in other WGs or later on in the IESG. Decisions and reviews > are > > documented (and arguments are provided), so I am not sure > > whether one > > can say the standpoints are arbitrary, nor that the > > judgments are not > > replicable or cannot be contested (there are processes for > > that, that > > can get weighed by the appropriate groups). It is not like > these > > guidelines for considerations are applied blindly. > > > > If I understood you incorrectly, could you perhaps > > illustrate the test a > > bit more in the specific case of security considerations? > > > > Best, > > > > Niels > > > > > > > > Niels ten Oever > > Head of Digital > > > > Article 19 > > www.article19.org > > > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > > > On 06/27/2016 12:57 PM, Scott Craig wrote: > > > Hi Niels, > > > > > > I=E2=80=99ve attached a document with comments on the pre= -adoption > > draft. > > > > > > I am still hoping that someone can address the concerns I > > raised on the > > > list about the methodology. I refer specifically to the > > method by which > > > an architectural feature has been (or can be) claimed to > > 'shape the > > > enabling environment' for a right. > > > > > > Raised here > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00401.html > > > here > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00408.html > > > and here > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00417.html > > > > > > Though I agree with some of your conclusions, I do not > > think the > > > justification for the claims you have made withstands > > scrutiny. As a > > > result it=E2=80=99s presently difficult to see how an eng= ineer > > could justify > > > giving additional attention to the features highlighted i= n > > the draft. > > > > > > To re-state what I said previously: > > > > > > I think the method you have described (quoted below)*_is > > great for > > > identifying _**/_candidate features_/*. But my concern is > > that it=E2=80=99s > > > insufficient to determine that a candidate feature is an > > enabling (or > > > restricting) feature. > > > > > > /" It is on the basis of these various case studies, > > elaborate > > > discussion on the mailinglist and at various IETF > > conferences that > > > *we came to determine whether an architectural > > feature* is a > > > 'crucial ingredient for enabling the ability to > > exercise specific > > > rights=E2=80=99. "/ > > > > > > If no explicit test is applied to the candidate features > > > after identification, I think this causes three problems: > > > > > > (1) *Judgements* *are arbitrary * > > > > > > i.e there is no basis on which to argue that the threshol= d > > for inclusion > > > was the same for one technical concept as for another. > > > > > > (2) *Judgements are not replicable. * > > > > > > i.e it is not possible to claim that different authors > > would not have > > > come to significantly different conclusions than you have= . > > > > > > (3) *Judgements cannot be contested * > > > > > > e.g if someone were to disagree with your contention that > > > internationalisation has a bearing on the right to > political > > > participation, on what basis would we adjudicate who is > > correct? > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Niels ten Oever > > > > > >= > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > To create a next RG version of the > > draft-tenoever-hrpc-research ID, it's > > > probably good to draft a clear way forward. > > > > > > We have had some really good comments and reviews > > during and before the > > > call for adoption, thanks for that, but if we want to > > bring this further > > > we will need some more reviews. > > > > > > Two people (Shane and Giovanni) are currently testing > > the guidelines for > > > human rights considerations on two actual drafts, > > which we hope can be > > > presented in Berlin. > > > > > > Avri mentioned she had elaborate feedback on the > > current draft and > > > Collin Anderson mentioned he would do a review of the > > draft, which would > > > both be greatly appeciated. > > > > > > So now we're looking for a third and potentially > > fourth reviewer who > > > could review the draft in within the coming two weeks > > so we can create a > > > new version ahead of IETF96 in Berlin. > > > > > > What we're looking for is a review of the whole > > document with more or > > > less coherent notes, suggestions and/or criticisms > > with which we could > > > improve the document. > > > > > > Looking forward to hear from you! > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Niels > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Niels ten Oever > > > Head of Digital > > > > > > Article 19 > > > www.article19.org > > > > > > > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > > > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > hrpc mailing list > > > hrpc@irtf.org hrpc@irtf.org > > > > > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > > > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org < > http://cdt.org> * > > > *E:* scraig@cdt.org < > http://cdt.org/> | > > *D:* 1.202.407.8887 > > > > | **@scottdavidcrai= g > > > > > > */ > > > /* > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org = * > > *E:* scraig@cdt.org > > | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 | **@scottdavidcraig > > > > */ > > /* > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org * > > *E:* scraig@cdt.org | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 > > | **@scottdavidcraig > > > > */ > > /* > > > > --001a113de3684d1390053763a689 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey Niels,

I'm not asking for more examples i'm asking for one = of two things;

Either

1. That you to describe the method by which you go from spea= king to people to concluding that a feature has a significant enough effect= on a right to merit inclusion in section 5.2.2.

Or

2. That if you don't have a method and this has just bee= n black box authors judgement then the list needs to develop one - for all = of the reasons I've set out before. A test being my initial proposal fo= r one method to judge the relevance of a feature upon a right outside of th= e current black box.

Joe's proposal seemed like a sensible way to begin pulli= ng back the curtain figuring out what the method was (or could be).

I don't understand why you are sidestepping the issue an= d focusing on examples instead.=C2=A0

Scott

On 11 Jul 2016 9:14 p.m., "Niels ten Oever&= quot; <niels@article19.org>= ; wrote:
Dear Scott,=

Am happy to work on (more) examples (as were mentioned in the
interviews, and found in the research). This would then be similar to
the documentation of attack vector examples in the Privacy
Considerations Guidelines and the Security Considerations Guidelines.
Corinne and I will come up with this shortly.

I am afraid though that it will lead to a duplication of the examples
mentioned under the considerations themselves though (at the bottom of
the ID), which would lead to an even longer document.

But if that's what's needed, here we go :)

Best,

Niels



Niels ten Oever
Head of Digital

Article 19
w= ww.article19.org

PGP fingerprint=C2=A0 =C2=A0 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0678B 0= 8B5 A0F2 636D 68E9

On 07/07/2016 03:51 PM, Scott Craig wrote:
> Hey Niels,
>
> Case examples are definitely good evidence in assessing whether a
> feature could have an effect on a right and whether that effect is
> significant enough to warrant addition attention by engineers.
>
> However, I think what is needed is a set of criteria which allows for = a
> transparent and consistent assessment of the claims made for
> relationships between features and rights. Case examples could form pa= rt
> of the evidence base for this assessment.
>
> I=E2=80=99d like to draw your attention to Section 5.2.2 'Translat= ion human
> rights to technical terms=E2=80=99 where the document claims that the = following
> listed features impact upon the right to freedom of expression.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"The combination of content agnosticism, conne= ctivity,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0security, privacy (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and o= pen standards are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the technical principles that underlie freedom of e= xpression on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the Internet.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(=C2=A0 Connectivity )
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Privacy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 )
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Security=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0)=C2=A0 =C2=A0=3D Right to freedom= of _expression_
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Content agnosticism=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 )
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Internationalization= =C2=A0 =C2=A0)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Censorship resistance= =C2=A0 )
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Open Standards=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Heterogeneity support = )
>
>
>
>
> Instead of detailing the basis on which the claims within it rest,
> section 5.2.2 just asserts them. I think that, at a minimum, there nee= ds
> to be something inserted into 5.2.2 that describes how you have made > these judgements, or states that judgements are based on the intuition=
> of the authors.
>
> Significantly for the point i=E2=80=99m trying to make, the visual
> representation in the document appears to make three more claims than<= br> > the paragraph. I.e the diagram claims that Heterogeneity support,
> Internationalisation and censorship resistance have an effect on the > ability to exercise freedom of expression whereas the paragraph does n= ot.
>
> This could well be a typo. But what if it=E2=80=99s not? Should we rem= ove the
> features from the diagram or add them to the paragraph? How would we > decide whether your paragraph or your diagram is correct without any > agreed criteria for assessing claims? What should be the minimum effec= t
> that merits inclusion?=C2=A0 This is the question that i=E2=80=99ve be= en pushing on.
>
> If it is the case that that these relationships have been based on
> authors intuition then we really have to go back to this section, unpa= ck
> that black box, and come up with a set of criteria that ensures these<= br> > judgments are being made in an transparent and consistent way.
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Niels ten Oever <niels@article19.org
> <mailto:niels@article19.org<= /a>>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for this Scott.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If we look at the current standing practice for sec= urity
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considerations then I think we should go for exampl= es instead of a test.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So would more examples (per feature and right impac= ted) be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sufficient in your opinion?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Niels
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 6 Jul 2016 5:40 p.m., Scott Craig <scraig@cdt.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:scraig= @cdt.org>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hey Niels,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for this.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The fundamental issue I have is that = the method you have used to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0claim links between features and righ= ts is a black box. There is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0no discernible basis for the links ot= her than your own judgement.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I don=E2=80=99t in any way doubt the = quality of your judgement. But I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0struggle to see how it provides suffi= cient grounds on which to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expect every IETF engineer to pay add= itional attention to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0features in the document.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The idea of a test was simply a way t= o add some rigour to these
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0claims in order to give them some mea= ns of defence if they are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0challenged and some means of adjudica= tion if they are disputed.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Right now you are literally just sayi= ng that you talked to some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0people and then you decided which thi= ngs were linked.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0" It is on the bas= is of these various case studies,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0elaborate discussion on= the mailing list and at various IETF
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0conferences that we cam= e to determine whether an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0architectural feature i= s a 'crucial ingredient for enabling
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the ability to exercise= specific rights=E2=80=99. "
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Simply saying /=E2=80=98We came to de= termine=E2=80=99/ as the method for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0determining the central claims made i= n the document just isn=E2=80=99t
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0good enough. You can describe this pr= ocess as=C2=A0 =E2=80=98proposing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vectors of analysis=E2=80=99 if you w= ant but this is no more than an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0obfuscated synonym for authors judgem= ent.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If I was an aircraft engineer and my = colleagues informed me that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the contents of the pre-flight check = had been determined by
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0people who had talked to aircraft eng= ineers doing doing =E2=80=98vectors
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of analysis=E2=80=99 and that no crit= eria had then been used to evaluate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and prioritise what we were being ask= ed to check then I would be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0terrified for the passengers. This ex= ercise is no less serious
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and demands no less rigour.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If the point of the document is to as= k engineers to give greater
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attention to the architectural featur= es it highlights then a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0black box judgement cannot be a solid= enough basis on which to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make that request.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It would be great to know whether oth= ers think the current
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0method is sufficient.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Scott Craig
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:28 PM, Niel= s ten Oever
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<niels@article19.org <mailto:niels@article19.org>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Scott,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have been thinking a = lot about your suggestions. I think
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the test you
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have been proposing mig= ht not be applicable for a technical
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0environment
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(but am happy to be pro= ven wrong).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I do not think we can e= xhaustively list and map the risks
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that protocols
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0generate in relation to= rights.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I would also like to ad= d that the test you propose is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0neither part nor a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requirement in for inst= ance security considerations:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2223#section-9
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools= .ietf.org/html/rfc3552
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Similar to the guidelin= es on security considerations RFC3552
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0guidelines on privacy c= onsiderations RFC6973 we've proposed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vectors of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0analysis and provided e= xamples.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0That these vectors migh= t not be exhaustive and always
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0context dependent
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are for me no arguments= to hold the draft back.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Furthermore I think the= guidelines provide an input for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drafts during drafting = phase, but also when they're
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed for review >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in other WGs or later o= n in the IESG. Decisions and reviews are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0documented (and argumen= ts are provided), so I am not sure
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0whether one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0can say the standpoints= are arbitrary, nor that the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0judgments are not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0replicable or cannot be= contested (there are processes for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that, that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0can get weighed by the = appropriate groups). It is not like these
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0guidelines for consider= ations are applied blindly.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If I understood you inc= orrectly, could you perhaps
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0illustrate the test a >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bit more in the specifi= c case of security considerations?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Niels
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Niels ten Oever
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Head of Digital
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Article 19
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0www.article19.org &l= t;http://www.article19.org>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PGP fingerprint=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 06/27/2016 12:57 PM,= Scott Craig wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Hi Niels,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I=E2=80=99ve attac= hed a document with comments on the pre-adoption
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I am still hoping = that someone can address the concerns I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0raised on the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> list about the met= hodology. I refer specifically to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0method by which
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> an architectural f= eature has been (or can be) claimed to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'shape the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> enabling environme= nt' for a right.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Raised here
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00401= .html
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> here
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00408= .html
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> and here
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00417= .html
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Though I agree wit= h some of your conclusions, I do not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0think the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> justification for = the claims you have made withstands
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scrutiny. As a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> result it=E2=80=99= s presently difficult to see how an engineer
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could justify
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> giving additional = attention to the features highlighted in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the draft.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> To re-state what I= said previously:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I think the method= you have described (quoted below)*_is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0great for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> identifying _**/_c= andidate features_/*. But my concern is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that it=E2=80=99s
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> insufficient to de= termine that a candidate feature is an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0enabling (or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> restricting) featu= re.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0/" It is on the basis of these various case studies,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0elaborate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0discussion on the mailinglist and at various IETF
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0conferences that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0*we came to determine whether an architectural
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0feature* is a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0'crucial ingredient for enabling the ability to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exercise specific
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0rights=E2=80=99. "/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> If no explicit tes= t is applied to the candidate features
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> after identificati= on, I think this causes three problems:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> (1) *Judgements* *= are arbitrary=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> i.e there is no ba= sis on which to argue that the threshold
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for inclusion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> was the same for o= ne technical concept as for another.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> (2) *Judgements ar= e not replicable. *
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> i.e it is not poss= ible to claim that different authors
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would not have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> come to significan= tly different conclusions than you have.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> (3) *Judgements ca= nnot be contested=C2=A0 *
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> e.g if someone wer= e to disagree with your contention that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> internationalisati= on has a bearing on the right to political
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> participation, on = what basis would we adjudicate who is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0correct?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Scott
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On Mon, Jun 13, 20= 16 at 3:15 PM, Niels ten Oever
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<niels@article19.org <mailto:niels@article19.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> <mailto:niels@article19.org <mailto:niels@article19.org>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Hi all,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0To create a next RG version of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-tenoever-hrpc-res= earch ID, it's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0probably good to draft a clear way forward.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0We have had some really good comments and reviews
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0during and before the >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0call for adoption, thanks for that, but if we want to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bring this further
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0we will need some more reviews.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Two people (Shane and Giovanni) are currently testing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the guidelines for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0human rights considerations on two actual drafts,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which we hope can be >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0presented in Berlin.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Avri mentioned she had elaborate feedback on the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0current draft and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Collin Anderson mentioned he would do a review of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft, which would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0both be greatly appeciated.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0So now we're looking for a third and potentially
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fourth reviewer who
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0could review the draft in within the coming two weeks
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so we can create a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0new version ahead of IETF96 in Berlin.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0What we're looking for is a review of the whole
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document with more or >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0less coherent notes, suggestions and/or criticisms
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with which we could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0improve the document.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Looking forward to hear from you!
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Best,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Niels
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Niels ten Oever
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Head of Digital
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Article 19
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0www.article19.org <http://www.article19.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://www.article19= .org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0PGP fingerprint=C2=A0 =C2=A0 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 678B 08B= 5 A0F2 636D 68E9
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0_______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0hrpc mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org> <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> *Scott Craig* | Fo= rd-Mozilla Fellow
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Center for Democra= cy & Technology |* cdt.org <http://cdt.org> <https://cdt.org/>*
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> *E:* scraig@cdt.org <mailto:scraig@cdt.org> <http://cdt.org/> |
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*D:* 1.202.407.8887 <tel:1.202.407.8887>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> <tel:202.407.8887 <tel:202.407.8887>> | **@= scottdavidcraig
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> */
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Center for Democracy & Technology= |* cdt.org= <= https://cdt.org/>*
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*E:* scraig@cdt.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://cdt.org/> | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 | **@scottda= vidcraig
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> --
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> *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow
> Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org <https://cdt.org/>*
> *E:* scraig@cdt.org <http://cdt.org/> | *D:* 1.202.4= 07.8887
> <tel:202.407.88= 87> | **@scottdavidcraig
>
> */
> /*
>

--001a113de3684d1390053763a689-- From nobody Mon Jul 11 15:57:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC3E12D0AE for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:57:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YBnGOGfupXKY for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5AC812D0E3 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A8BEDE3E32D; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 22:57:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDE6BDE3E326; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 22:57:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.70] (sd5112335.adsl.online.nl [213.17.35.53]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1C4ED48BFAA; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 22:57:23 +0000 (UTC) To: Scott Craig References: <5c372fed-4623-7498-7837-82dc967b802c@article19.org> From: Niels ten Oever X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <193c1ce1-cce8-0929-e7d3-5513d7c40ff6@article19.org> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:57:22 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qfbEFgIm5XsSV1vmK54GGBwAnUoErM90E" Archived-At: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, Joe Hall Subject: Re: [hrpc] Methods for establishing the relationships between features and rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 22:57:28 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --qfbEFgIm5XsSV1vmK54GGBwAnUoErM90E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Scott, In that case I might have misunderstood your comments, let me try to give it another try, what about replacing the existing explanatory paragraph at 5.2.2: This analysis aims to translate human rights concepts that impact or are impacted by the Internet as follows: The combination of content agnosticism, connectivity, security, privacy (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and open standards are the technical principles that underlie freedom of expression on the Internet. into: The combination of the technical concepts that have been gathered the steps above have been grouped according to their impact on specific rights as they have been mentioned in the interviews done at IETF92 as well as study of literature (see literature and discussion review above).= This analysis aims to assist protocol developers by understanding better understanding the roles specific technical concepts with regards to the possibility to exercise human rights on the Internet. This analysis does not claim to be an complete or exhaustive mapping of all possible ways in which a protocols could potentially impact human rights, but it presents an initial combined concept mapping based on interviews and literature and discussion review. Happy to discuss! Best, Niels Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 On 07/12/2016 12:26 AM, Scott Craig wrote: > Hey Niels, >=20 > I'm not asking for more examples i'm asking for one of two things; >=20 > Either >=20 > 1. That you to describe the method by which you go from speaking to > people to concluding that a feature has a significant enough effect on = a > right to merit inclusion in section 5.2.2. >=20 > Or >=20 > 2. That if you don't have a method and this has just been black box > authors judgement then the list needs to develop one - for all of the > reasons I've set out before. A test being my initial proposal for one > method to judge the relevance of a feature upon a right outside of the > current black box. >=20 > Joe's proposal seemed like a sensible way to begin pulling back the > curtain figuring out what the method was (or could be). >=20 > I don't understand why you are sidestepping the issue and focusing on > examples instead.=20 >=20 > Scott >=20 > On 11 Jul 2016 9:14 p.m., "Niels ten Oever" > wrote: >=20 > Dear Scott, >=20 > Am happy to work on (more) examples (as were mentioned in the > interviews, and found in the research). This would then be similar = to > the documentation of attack vector examples in the Privacy > Considerations Guidelines and the Security Considerations Guideline= s. > Corinne and I will come up with this shortly. >=20 > I am afraid though that it will lead to a duplication of the exampl= es > mentioned under the considerations themselves though (at the bottom= of > the ID), which would lead to an even longer document. >=20 > But if that's what's needed, here we go :) >=20 > Best, >=20 > Niels >=20 >=20 >=20 > Niels ten Oever > Head of Digital >=20 > Article 19 > www.article19.org >=20 > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 >=20 > On 07/07/2016 03:51 PM, Scott Craig wrote: > > Hey Niels, > > > > Case examples are definitely good evidence in assessing whether a= > > feature could have an effect on a right and whether that effect i= s > > significant enough to warrant addition attention by engineers. > > > > However, I think what is needed is a set of criteria which allows= > for a > > transparent and consistent assessment of the claims made for > > relationships between features and rights. Case examples could > form part > > of the evidence base for this assessment. > > > > I=E2=80=99d like to draw your attention to Section 5.2.2 'Transla= tion human > > rights to technical terms=E2=80=99 where the document claims that= the > following > > listed features impact upon the right to freedom of expression. > > > > "The combination of content agnosticism, connectivity, > > security, privacy (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and open > standards are > > the technical principles that underlie freedom of expression = on > > the Internet.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > ( Connectivity ) > > ( Privacy ) > > ( Security ) =3D Right to freedom of > _expression_ > > ( Content agnosticism ) > > ( Internationalization ) > > ( Censorship resistance ) > > ( Open Standards ) > > ( Heterogeneity support ) > > > > > > > > > > Instead of detailing the basis on which the claims within it rest= , > > section 5.2.2 just asserts them. I think that, at a minimum, ther= e > needs > > to be something inserted into 5.2.2 that describes how you have m= ade > > these judgements, or states that judgements are based on the intu= ition > > of the authors. > > > > Significantly for the point i=E2=80=99m trying to make, the visua= l > > representation in the document appears to make three more claims = than > > the paragraph. I.e the diagram claims that Heterogeneity support,= > > Internationalisation and censorship resistance have an effect on = the > > ability to exercise freedom of expression whereas the paragraph > does not. > > > > This could well be a typo. But what if it=E2=80=99s not? Should w= e remove the > > features from the diagram or add them to the paragraph? How would= we > > decide whether your paragraph or your diagram is correct without = any > > agreed criteria for assessing claims? What should be the minimum > effect > > that merits inclusion? This is the question that i=E2=80=99ve be= en > pushing on. > > > > If it is the case that that these relationships have been based o= n > > authors intuition then we really have to go back to this section,= > unpack > > that black box, and come up with a set of criteria that ensures t= hese > > judgments are being made in an transparent and consistent way. > > > > Scott > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Niels ten Oever > > > >> wrote:= > > > > Thanks for this Scott. > > > > If we look at the current standing practice for security > > considerations then I think we should go for examples instead= > of a test. > > > > So would more examples (per feature and right impacted) be > > sufficient in your opinion? > > > > Best, > > > > Niels > > > > On 6 Jul 2016 5:40 p.m., Scott Craig > > >> wrote: > > > > Hey Niels, > > > > Thanks for this. > > > > The fundamental issue I have is that the method you have > used to > > claim links between features and rights is a black box. > There is > > no discernible basis for the links other than your own > judgement. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t in any way doubt the quality of your judg= ement. But I > > struggle to see how it provides sufficient grounds on whi= ch to > > expect every IETF engineer to pay additional attention to= the > > features in the document. > > > > The idea of a test was simply a way to add some rigour to= > these > > claims in order to give them some means of defence if the= y are > > challenged and some means of adjudication if they are > disputed. > > Right now you are literally just saying that you talked t= o > some > > people and then you decided which things were linked. > > > > " It is on the basis of these various case studies, > > elaborate discussion on the mailing list and at > various IETF > > conferences that we came to determine whether an > > architectural feature is a 'crucial ingredient for > enabling > > the ability to exercise specific rights=E2=80=99. " > > > > > > Simply saying /=E2=80=98We came to determine=E2=80=99/ as= the method for > > determining the central claims made in the document just = isn=E2=80=99t > > good enough. You can describe this process as =E2=80=98p= roposing > > vectors of analysis=E2=80=99 if you want but this is no m= ore than an > > obfuscated synonym for authors judgement. > > > > If I was an aircraft engineer and my colleagues informed > me that > > the contents of the pre-flight check had been determined = by > > people who had talked to aircraft engineers doing doing > =E2=80=98vectors > > of analysis=E2=80=99 and that no criteria had then been u= sed to > evaluate > > and prioritise what we were being asked to check then I > would be > > terrified for the passengers. This exercise is no less se= rious > > and demands no less rigour. > > > > If the point of the document is to ask engineers to give > greater > > attention to the architectural features it highlights the= n a > > black box judgement cannot be a solid enough basis on whi= ch to > > make that request. > > > > It would be great to know whether others think the curren= t > > method is sufficient. > > > > Scott Craig > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:28 PM, Niels ten Oever > > > >> wrote: > > > > Hi Scott, > > > > I have been thinking a lot about your suggestions. I = think > > the test you > > have been proposing might not be applicable for a > technical > > environment > > (but am happy to be proven wrong). > > > > I do not think we can exhaustively list and map the r= isks > > that protocols > > generate in relation to rights. > > > > I would also like to add that the test you propose is= > > neither part nor a > > requirement in for instance security considerations: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2223#section-9 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552 > > > > Similar to the guidelines on security considerations > RFC3552 > > and the > > guidelines on privacy considerations RFC6973 we've > proposed > > vectors of > > analysis and provided examples. > > > > That these vectors might not be exhaustive and always= > > context dependent > > are for me no arguments to hold the draft back. > > > > Furthermore I think the guidelines provide an input f= or > > discussion of > > drafts during drafting phase, but also when they're > > discussed for review > > in other WGs or later on in the IESG. Decisions and > reviews are > > documented (and arguments are provided), so I am not = sure > > whether one > > can say the standpoints are arbitrary, nor that the > > judgments are not > > replicable or cannot be contested (there are processe= s for > > that, that > > can get weighed by the appropriate groups). It is not= > like these > > guidelines for considerations are applied blindly. > > > > If I understood you incorrectly, could you perhaps > > illustrate the test a > > bit more in the specific case of security considerati= ons? > > > > Best, > > > > Niels > > > > > > > > Niels ten Oever > > Head of Digital > > > > Article 19 > > www.article19.org > > > > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > > > On 06/27/2016 12:57 PM, Scott Craig wrote: > > > Hi Niels, > > > > > > I=E2=80=99ve attached a document with comments on t= he > pre-adoption > > draft. > > > > > > I am still hoping that someone can address the > concerns I > > raised on the > > > list about the methodology. I refer specifically to= the > > method by which > > > an architectural feature has been (or can be) claim= ed to > > 'shape the > > > enabling environment' for a right. > > > > > > Raised here > > =20 > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00401.html > > > here > > =20 > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00408.html > > > and here > > =20 > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00417.html > > > > > > Though I agree with some of your conclusions, I do = not > > think the > > > justification for the claims you have made withstan= ds > > scrutiny. As a > > > result it=E2=80=99s presently difficult to see how = an engineer > > could justify > > > giving additional attention to the features > highlighted in > > the draft. > > > > > > To re-state what I said previously: > > > > > > I think the method you have described (quoted below= )*_is > > great for > > > identifying _**/_candidate features_/*. But my > concern is > > that it=E2=80=99s > > > insufficient to determine that a candidate feature = is an > > enabling (or > > > restricting) feature. > > > > > > /" It is on the basis of these various case stu= dies, > > elaborate > > > discussion on the mailinglist and at various IE= TF > > conferences that > > > *we came to determine whether an architectural > > feature* is a > > > 'crucial ingredient for enabling the ability to= > > exercise specific > > > rights=E2=80=99. "/ > > > > > > If no explicit test is applied to the candidate fea= tures > > > after identification, I think this causes three > problems: > > > > > > (1) *Judgements* *are arbitrary * > > > > > > i.e there is no basis on which to argue that the > threshold > > for inclusion > > > was the same for one technical concept as for anoth= er. > > > > > > (2) *Judgements are not replicable. * > > > > > > i.e it is not possible to claim that different auth= ors > > would not have > > > come to significantly different conclusions than yo= u > have. > > > > > > (3) *Judgements cannot be contested * > > > > > > e.g if someone were to disagree with your contentio= n > that > > > internationalisation has a bearing on the right to > political > > > participation, on what basis would we adjudicate wh= o is > > correct? > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Niels ten Oever > > > > > > > >>> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > To create a next RG version of the > > draft-tenoever-hrpc-research ID, it's > > > probably good to draft a clear way forward. > > > > > > We have had some really good comments and revie= ws > > during and before the > > > call for adoption, thanks for that, but if we > want to > > bring this further > > > we will need some more reviews. > > > > > > Two people (Shane and Giovanni) are currently > testing > > the guidelines for > > > human rights considerations on two actual draft= s, > > which we hope can be > > > presented in Berlin. > > > > > > Avri mentioned she had elaborate feedback on th= e > > current draft and > > > Collin Anderson mentioned he would do a review > of the > > draft, which would > > > both be greatly appeciated. > > > > > > So now we're looking for a third and potentiall= y > > fourth reviewer who > > > could review the draft in within the coming two= > weeks > > so we can create a > > > new version ahead of IETF96 in Berlin. > > > > > > What we're looking for is a review of the whole= > > document with more or > > > less coherent notes, suggestions and/or critici= sms > > with which we could > > > improve the document. > > > > > > Looking forward to hear from you! > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Niels > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Niels ten Oever > > > Head of Digital > > > > > > Article 19 > > > www.article19.org > > > > > > > > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > > > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________= > > > hrpc mailing list > > > hrpc@irtf.org > > > > >> > > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > > > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org > * > > > *E:* scraig@cdt.org > > |= > > *D:* 1.202.407.8887 > > > > > > >> | **@scottdavidcraig > > > > > > */ > > > /* > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org > * > > *E:* scraig@cdt.org > > | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 > | **@scottdavidcraig > > > > */ > > /* > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow > > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org > * > > *E:* scraig@cdt.org | > *D:* 1.202.407.8887 > > > | **@scottdavidcraig > > > > */ > > /* > > >=20 --qfbEFgIm5XsSV1vmK54GGBwAnUoErM90E Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXhCRTAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjptPkH/1OtW040W1gMPYL+ugP63btP cCjPtLJXgZ64QTzfbSzdRnG2jJUjiRXkW/iC3dWBQrn+kZPYwVJ5arHuzNctDvOs QeXGwkaA71FJnePhISAA0udKl5NlYo1Bd47iIKvA6/TUk5EBgjltuyX+Kpdbx186 LlC7Vv0mzB5Jyhj4MfRAlqvsy97M/J63o6BXbIK+kNW9LKqzW7nFcZT1OBwtGa8x GD68SioBoLLihU8ALaFvY55kELM5VHGMQBBEmueFgSn55fWJ/rLYBFIXdXbESRw8 NJbdbAzvX/GEq9e5bOrC+nXWuil0BwQGEMs097rzj90CBNqEwgDCNWjSR3cZXnk= =KlPS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qfbEFgIm5XsSV1vmK54GGBwAnUoErM90E-- From nobody Tue Jul 12 02:54:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F13C612D769 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 02:54:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9F1bt0D6GC9d for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 02:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80F5A12B026 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 02:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 153435568B8B; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 09:54:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 014C55568B79; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 09:54:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.70] (sd5112335.adsl.online.nl [213.17.35.53]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E411CF3951; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 09:54:12 +0000 (UTC) To: Harry Halpin , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <15cc0479-b312-598c-4ff1-7fd2c7c4f950@article19.org> <5783F5E7.5020506@w3.org> From: Niels ten Oever X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <25cb9bfe-aa34-4925-0fcb-a628e974058b@article19.org> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:54:12 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5783F5E7.5020506@w3.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HOpa9lq9raPj3A6BQ05dwn9uEgJ9SAMsF" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] reviews by Harry Halpin X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 09:54:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --HOpa9lq9raPj3A6BQ05dwn9uEgJ9SAMsF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Harry, Comments inline: On 07/11/2016 09:39 PM, Harry Halpin wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 07/06/2016 08:09 PM, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> Hi Harry,=20 >=20 > These are all minor optional notes, and I'm happy to see the draft go > forward without them. >> Corinne and I have went through your comments, for which I would like = to >> thank you again. Most issues have been addressed in the draft that is >> about to be published (for which you can find the md here: >> https://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/blob/master/draft-research.md >> , I think it made the draft much better, thanks a lot. There are a few= >> things unresovled though: >> >>> =C2=B7 Federation The possibility of connecting autonomous syst= ems >>> into single distributed system. @@: Distibuted system has a >>> well-defined meaning in computer science. I'd say 'decentralized' >>> here and note that 'autonomous and possibly centralized' >> We have went with this solution because there is a lot of contention >> about what 'decentralized' is. Therefore we said that everything that = is >> federated is by defintion distributed. >> Are you proposing: >> =C2=B7 Federation The possibility of connecting autonomous syste= ms into >> single autonomous and possibly centralized system.? >> Am not sure if it would be much clearer, I also do think that it is in= >> line with the provided definition of distributed system. >=20 > That edit would be a bit backwards. >=20 > The simplest edit would be "The possibility of connecting autonomous > systems into single system" >=20 > Since the term 'decentralization' can be difficult (unlike > 'distributed', it isn't well defined in computer science), the more > complex edit would be "The possibility of connecting autonomous and > possibly centralized systems into single system without a central > authority." >=20 I've added this. >> >>> =C2=B7 Methodology @@: While interesting from an academic >>> perspective, it seems like this should be in an appendix or towards >>> the end and referenced >> I think we'll keep this here, because it is an IRTF document (focusing= >> on research). If we want to guidelines to be normative or relevant for= >> the IETF we will need to bring it up there. >=20 > OK >=20 >> >>> =C2=B7 @@: Noting Moxie's SSLstrip makes this capability availab= le to >>> almost anyone, as its is likely a *design flaw* that the identifier >>> of the encrypted version (https://) of a resource is different than >>> an unencrypted one (http://), although it is likely a design flaw >>> that is is too late to fix. Only with HSTS and certificate pinning >>> (failed IETF draft for it as "Tack") can this attack really be dealt >>> with. >> I do recognize this problem, but am not sure whether adding this hear >> will add much to the purpose of the draft, but curious to hear opinion= s >> from others on this. >=20 >=20 > If you are going to discuss the use of TLS, this should probably be > mentioned. In general, bolting on privacy and crypto after a protocol > like HTTP is already deployed is hard. I would note that "HTTP upgradin= g > to HTTPS is also vulnerable to having an attacker remove the "S" in any= > links to HTTPS URIs from a web-page transferred in cleartext over HTTP,= > an attack called "SSL Stripping" [1]. Thus, for high security use of > HTTPS IETF standards such as HSTS [2] and certificate pinning should be= > used [3]." >=20 > [1] https://moxie.org/software/sslstrip/ > [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6797/ > [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7469/ >>> =C2=B7 @@IETF does not in general have much >>> work in standardizing P2P protocols. Should it? Should this be >>> included if the protocol was designed outside the IEF? >> There is increasingly work on P2P in IETF, am not sure why we should >> exclude this (RFC5128, RFC5694, but also: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/p2psip/charter/ ) >=20 >=20 >=20 > "Defined" here was the word that confused me. SIP is just a > multimedia-over-IP protocol (used mostly for voice in my experience), > and p2psip is just a way of doing SIP with a p2p discovery service, i.e= =2E > a DHT - unlike, say, most uses of WebRTC. Thus, P2PSIP is more of a > corner-case than a fundamental standard for P2P. I am not aware of mor= e > generic and popular deployed P2P frameworks (thinking Bitcoin, Tor, > BitTorrent, even FreeNet) that were standardized at the IETF. So, I'd > rephrase the sentence as >=20 > "Peer-to-Peer (P2P) is a network architecture in which all the > participant nodes can be responsible for the storage and dissemination > of information from any other node (as defined in {{RFC7574}}, an IETF > standard that uses a P2P architeture)." Thanks added. >=20 > My general take on P2P is summed up by Phil Agre quote: "Architecture i= s > politics, but it is not a substitute for politics" in his article "p2p > and the promise of internet equality." In fact, due to sybil attacks > that are quite easy to mount today, I tend to discourage their use in > practical applications by at-risk human rights defenders.=20 >> >> >>> @@You should not patents, and the destrutive role patents have had in= >>> holding back cryptography, in particular elliptic curves or even >>> Schnorr signatures, and how the IETF "Note Well" and W3C >>> "Royalty-Free licensing Patent policy" given a definition of open >>> stanardization in terms of intellectual property. >> Could you provide us some text for this? >=20 >=20 > "Do you normatively reference another standard that is not available > without cost? Are you aware of any patents that would prevent your > standard from being fully implemented?" >=20 > .. >=20 > "All standards that need to be normatively implemented should be freely= > available and with reasonable protection for patent infringement claims= , > so it can also be implemented in open source or free software. Patents > have often held back open standardization or been used against those > deploying open stadards, particularly in the domain of cryptography [1]= =2E > Patents in open standards or in normative references to other standards= > should have a patent disclosure [2], royalty-free licensing [3], or som= e > other form of reasonable protection. Reasonable patent protection shoul= d > includes but is not limited to cryptographic primitives. >=20 > [1] > http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/11/newegg-on-trial-mystery-comp= any-tqp-re-writes-the-history-of-encryption/ > [2] https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well.html > [3] https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/ >> Thanks added. Great work! Cheers, Niels >> Thanks again for this great review. >> >> Best, >> >> Niels >> >> >> >> >> >> >=20 >=20 --HOpa9lq9raPj3A6BQ05dwn9uEgJ9SAMsF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXhL5EAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjp1woH/jg1WK95YlwN74Ju+n0YVyUQ yDms4jrR0BRLJW/Ti9PWg3j0DPkUeQ6qQgfUEUtPiK/wRIBak1gH1bsK+NKyb+0v 6eeHVE82/MY1wgxyzO0d25Ab7vwtrar73F5QhQRgLepI0Ll9wVYxnqyl1lmSn0Fb F0nebgFc2wI+PafGVwOMltbjgp/niSfo5Qunu2i3IJuxlyCyO7sFkHIZx/h/alzm rAxUVqBgEbzD0ip/wQJrBFtkXA9LnLOPftwSvC41Xi9Oq5th2GNxwsYyDNIo6C3+ mDm/dJWMMrVoLFGQAJ5fDEm7lFZK1OI1xo3Bh9x+wYrAq4ns1mM5nrre8/nArTQ= =k4ht -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HOpa9lq9raPj3A6BQ05dwn9uEgJ9SAMsF-- From nobody Tue Jul 12 03:33:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8C412D0DB for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 03:33:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wzE4XQV1xqgr for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 03:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C0AA12B017 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 03:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10A385568B79 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:33:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F41975568B76 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:33:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.70] (sd5112335.adsl.online.nl [213.17.35.53]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3C1DF3951 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:33:53 +0000 (UTC) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20160707203054.49352bc9@pallas.home.time-travellers.org> From: Niels ten Oever X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <788e0de0-3e25-5479-606a-f2e95f9d3083@article19.org> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 12:33:53 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160707203054.49352bc9@pallas.home.time-travellers.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LUXihWe9Jdhu6l2Sis5uE5mltMiXt5Gh0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Feedback on guidelines on human rights considerations X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:33:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --LUXihWe9Jdhu6l2Sis5uE5mltMiXt5Gh0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Shane, Comments inline: On 07/07/2016 08:30 PM, Shane Kerr wrote: > Hello, >=20 > I volunteered to try to apply the guidelines in > draft-tenoever-hrpc-research to a draft that I have been working on > with some colleagues. Niels asked me to send my observations to the > list. >=20 > Summary > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Basically I think that it is a useful checklist. >=20 > I think the list can be shortened (pointed out in detail below). Indeed= > I worry a bit that it is too long, even with a few items removed. > Perhaps something can be written about the relative importance of the > items? >=20 > My Draft > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > I'm working with my colleagues on a "DNS over HTTP" draft. This > describes a protocol for encapsulating DNS messages and then sending > them over HTTP... kind of a protocol-specific tunnel in a way. >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-dns-wireformat-http/ >=20 > We don't really introduce any new protocols, but kind of duct-tape two > very popular protocols together.=20 >=20 > This is very much useful as a tool for circumventing censorship (at > least the DNS part of censorship). >=20 > Highlights of the review > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > I have a detailed review which is probably only interesting for my > co-authors and myself. Here are some highlights that I think might be > interesting for this group. >=20 > BTW, while I have questions below, it's not really so important to give= > *me* answers. Instead the hrpc draft should be clarified so that people= > using it don't end up confused too. (Although it is possible that I am > just easily confused...) >=20 >=20 > 5.3.2.1.2. Privacy >=20 > I had not looked at RFC 6973 section 7. This was a useful recommendatio= n. >=20 > *** Are there experts we can ask for advice in this area? Maybe setting= > up a list of people willing to give advice would be useful... >=20 privacy@ietf.org is indeed the list for this. When you have any questions on privacy implications of your draft that list will review and provide guidance. > 5.3.2.1.8. Heterogeneity Support >=20 > *** This one confuses me. Is it asking if the protocol will work in > heterogeneous environments or what? > Yes, and whether it will in turn allow for multiple types of hardwae and multiple types of application protocols. Where these questions and the example under 5.3.2.1.8 not clear? Any suggestions? > 5.3.2.1.9. Anonymity >=20 > I had not looked at RFC 6973 section 6. This was a useful > recommendation. >=20 > 5.3.2.1.12. Localization >=20 > *** This one confuses me. Even though it references Internationalizatio= n I > still don't know how this is different or what I am supposed to be > considering. >=20 Internationalization is making it possible for a protocol, implementation or application to be localized. The localization is the actual act of translating and contextualizing it. This bring about questions similar to the ones that were brought up by Ramsey Nasser at IETF95 at his presentation. > 5.3.2.1.15. Confidentiality >=20 > As a DNS protocol, DNS over HTTP exposes a ton of confidential informat= ion! >=20 > I think that I'll add a note in the draft about this, and mention that > proxies may want to consider what and how they log information, as > well as things like DNS query minimization. >=20 > *** Thanks, this was a big "win". :) nice! >=20 > 5.3.2.1.18. Acceptability >=20 > *** I'm not clear how this differs from accessibility. >=20 Here we might run into a tech <-> law translation issue again. Accessibility as it is used in the questionnaire refers to : The design of protocols, services or implementation that provide an enabling environment for people with disabilities. Acceptability is a bit broader human rights concept that refers to sensitizing protocol, in this case, toward the multiple forms of discrimination that might arise at the intersection of race, gender, class, ethnicity, disability or other identities and backgrounds. Because accessibility is a better understood (and documented) term in technology, we chose to keep them both. > 5.3.2.1.19. Availability >=20 > *** I'm not sure how this is different from open standards, although I > suppose it could be related to legal restrictions (such as laws > against encryption or the like)? >=20 You're right. I merged this with open standards. > 5.3.2.1.20. Adaptability >=20 > *** I'm not really sure what to do about this, or what it means exactly= =2E > We have two inter-operable implementations, both open source, if > that is somehow related? >=20 It is, that is exactly what this aims to encourage. So I added: "Is your protocol written in such a way that is would be easy for other protocols to be developed on top of it, or to interact with it?" Would this help? >=20 > Conclusion > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > My own feeling is that while this checklist is helpful in the current > form, it should probably be shortened and clarified. >=20 Thanks a lot for this. I hope we can further discuss so we can shorten and clarify further. Best, Niels >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > -- > Shane >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --LUXihWe9Jdhu6l2Sis5uE5mltMiXt5Gh0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXhMeRAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjpJZIIAIPIDCJm23kwnqCwNATn1r5Y yH4zK0FMc3auJ+W0jmU5DqMKkWlNhgf0zt1NcmGhgQ8G/fW8GrNOIFhIuRg+S7hX 7tjASUZ3ncSHyYkBcpgA3Yor+FKlaJcSQndU9YlktRguzwolbZsSKnngvf7rOC2O WVlESzFRN1/Cx3ibRCU6RfYXmgyscrLv/A+ZnXPJpRzGmBqwXSoZPDvWZsRL7F18 Un1zBpbkNnzekGfL884PJDKPKzTNEUgFsABbrTdCsLnptrR6oPyop8Oodhnkk33m wtBnKjrk8WPnoqN6cmijcSLsD3JzZXPguC6bU+8XnW5QrYl+PgximA3ljS6vlmc= =VxyV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LUXihWe9Jdhu6l2Sis5uE5mltMiXt5Gh0-- From nobody Tue Jul 12 03:44:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D0F612D7A3 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 03:44:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.877 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.877 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URI_WP_DIRINDEX=2.997, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JGMG8s48CARc for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 03:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5050412D798 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 03:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22B35F3951 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:44:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 138DD5568B79 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:44:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.70] (sd5112335.adsl.online.nl [213.17.35.53]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF01B5568B76 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:44:19 +0000 (UTC) To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <7d892a19-8efe-1c38-1077-312eeb450dc4@article19.org> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 12:44:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NghEKx9PwmEnc14bI0es2mmnaMPi9sWNm" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] lastest version of the draft X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:44:28 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --NghEKx9PwmEnc14bI0es2mmnaMPi9sWNm Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A78023A563C42D42DABC7D87" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A78023A563C42D42DABC7D87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Based on the reviews and suggestions made by Scott, Harry, Shane, Giovane and John I have made a new version. It is only possible for me to submit a new version on th 17th, but while everyone is preparing for IETF96 I thought it might be nice if you could read the most recent version in an easily readible way. Markdown: https://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/blob/master/draft-research.md Html: http://nielstenoever.net/draft-research.html Txt: Attached Looking forward to discuss this at IETF96. 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c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7o8D8WEjLit8HHxslwN2Er7wklXQTEvwUzDgIRAjzB8=; b=GOLj/xKE3O22rXupdB6BY2SK5PsQilu3uBkD8AXrHDaeeuRw1+fX+f+G9sddvwVXY9 6UA8AOeZ6ynH25cE1SWVvo4zg09i7rhgXEuX0vBTBp4R1yCVmDQRQaCOzxw2eQEIsdAi fJ1t80MtvFGL/Zw7muDxMhmEjp20K8oPekpmQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7o8D8WEjLit8HHxslwN2Er7wklXQTEvwUzDgIRAjzB8=; b=TPTGhl2gcrLB9lRs6H1wYm7Extcl0d8tGFxrFkpcmmjxSnk4nhDLIdmTzhBj6QF2gC HXCZOOZyRzUl2klz08aBFitblJ/2pr6BHigIpvE7fBzuKfMkcUpNrdPI6kt/w/a/GBJI dA59AwEWWjCNf06OdiQtMcc2Oc0MDXfHwtVkYkEw2ExUJlbVwfd6iiSRDEf9/uBthjnZ Z72tp67jd3zgQ2sqRUwqOIHV7a0WLmbVt/1UUJVYNGrehOJh+WewVDGJsci/3vfjxdjP LMCCRkJ2ErFQZ9C1sFy/bg4yAWWW7vC3W4vEwuemCdQakJuT9Y0oKOvzHrzHOtV4EP7k d6og== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tICCx3ARin+mh5EZHeDREy+YnfWJcAR9XTzdruDJ7wHcyoDvMes8nKPPyGGcHpZpFt1ESSV3mCrDl+B8QhB X-Received: by 10.31.59.5 with SMTP id i5mr5597000vka.146.1468502799455; Thu, 14 Jul 2016 06:26:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.29.71 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Jul 2016 06:26:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <193c1ce1-cce8-0929-e7d3-5513d7c40ff6@article19.org> References: <5c372fed-4623-7498-7837-82dc967b802c@article19.org> <193c1ce1-cce8-0929-e7d3-5513d7c40ff6@article19.org> From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 09:26:19 -0400 Message-ID: To: Niels ten Oever Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: Scott Craig , hrpc@irtf.org Subject: Re: [hrpc] Methods for establishing the relationships between features and rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 13:26:43 -0000 Niels, I'd like to sit down and attempt to do what I suggest above (write down in words the actual relationships between the LHS and RHS in those figures), but it seems like it's getting closer to the explicit articulation of a method that we've been talking about. best, Joe On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Niels ten Oever wrot= e: > Hi Scott, > > In that case I might have misunderstood your comments, let me try to > give it another try, what about replacing the existing explanatory > paragraph at 5.2.2: > > > This analysis aims to translate human rights concepts that impact or > are impacted by the Internet as follows: > > The combination of content agnosticism, connectivity, security, > privacy (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and open standards are the > technical principles that underlie freedom of expression on the > Internet. > > into: > > The combination of the technical concepts that have been gathered the > steps above have been grouped according to their impact on specific > rights as they have been mentioned in the interviews done at IETF92 as > well as study of literature (see literature and discussion review above). > > This analysis aims to assist protocol developers by understanding better > understanding the roles specific technical concepts with regards to the > possibility to exercise human rights on the Internet. > > This analysis does not claim to be an complete or exhaustive mapping of > all possible ways in which a protocols could potentially impact human > rights, but it presents an initial combined concept mapping based on > interviews and literature and discussion review. > > Happy to discuss! > > Best, > > Niels > > > Niels ten Oever > Head of Digital > > Article 19 > www.article19.org > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > > On 07/12/2016 12:26 AM, Scott Craig wrote: >> Hey Niels, >> >> I'm not asking for more examples i'm asking for one of two things; >> >> Either >> >> 1. That you to describe the method by which you go from speaking to >> people to concluding that a feature has a significant enough effect on a >> right to merit inclusion in section 5.2.2. >> >> Or >> >> 2. That if you don't have a method and this has just been black box >> authors judgement then the list needs to develop one - for all of the >> reasons I've set out before. A test being my initial proposal for one >> method to judge the relevance of a feature upon a right outside of the >> current black box. >> >> Joe's proposal seemed like a sensible way to begin pulling back the >> curtain figuring out what the method was (or could be). >> >> I don't understand why you are sidestepping the issue and focusing on >> examples instead. >> >> Scott >> >> On 11 Jul 2016 9:14 p.m., "Niels ten Oever" > > wrote: >> >> Dear Scott, >> >> Am happy to work on (more) examples (as were mentioned in the >> interviews, and found in the research). This would then be similar t= o >> the documentation of attack vector examples in the Privacy >> Considerations Guidelines and the Security Considerations Guidelines= . >> Corinne and I will come up with this shortly. >> >> I am afraid though that it will lead to a duplication of the example= s >> mentioned under the considerations themselves though (at the bottom = of >> the ID), which would lead to an even longer document. >> >> But if that's what's needed, here we go :) >> >> Best, >> >> Niels >> >> >> >> Niels ten Oever >> Head of Digital >> >> Article 19 >> www.article19.org >> >> PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 >> 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 >> >> On 07/07/2016 03:51 PM, Scott Craig wrote: >> > Hey Niels, >> > >> > Case examples are definitely good evidence in assessing whether a >> > feature could have an effect on a right and whether that effect is >> > significant enough to warrant addition attention by engineers. >> > >> > However, I think what is needed is a set of criteria which allows >> for a >> > transparent and consistent assessment of the claims made for >> > relationships between features and rights. Case examples could >> form part >> > of the evidence base for this assessment. >> > >> > I=E2=80=99d like to draw your attention to Section 5.2.2 'Translat= ion human >> > rights to technical terms=E2=80=99 where the document claims that = the >> following >> > listed features impact upon the right to freedom of expression. >> > >> > "The combination of content agnosticism, connectivity, >> > security, privacy (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and open >> standards are >> > the technical principles that underlie freedom of expression o= n >> > the Internet.=E2=80=9D >> > >> > >> > ( Connectivity ) >> > ( Privacy ) >> > ( Security ) =3D Right to freedom of >> _expression_ >> > ( Content agnosticism ) >> > ( Internationalization ) >> > ( Censorship resistance ) >> > ( Open Standards ) >> > ( Heterogeneity support ) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Instead of detailing the basis on which the claims within it rest, >> > section 5.2.2 just asserts them. I think that, at a minimum, there >> needs >> > to be something inserted into 5.2.2 that describes how you have ma= de >> > these judgements, or states that judgements are based on the intui= tion >> > of the authors. >> > >> > Significantly for the point i=E2=80=99m trying to make, the visual >> > representation in the document appears to make three more claims t= han >> > the paragraph. I.e the diagram claims that Heterogeneity support, >> > Internationalisation and censorship resistance have an effect on t= he >> > ability to exercise freedom of expression whereas the paragraph >> does not. >> > >> > This could well be a typo. But what if it=E2=80=99s not? Should we= remove the >> > features from the diagram or add them to the paragraph? How would = we >> > decide whether your paragraph or your diagram is correct without a= ny >> > agreed criteria for assessing claims? What should be the minimum >> effect >> > that merits inclusion? This is the question that i=E2=80=99ve bee= n >> pushing on. >> > >> > If it is the case that that these relationships have been based on >> > authors intuition then we really have to go back to this section, >> unpack >> > that black box, and come up with a set of criteria that ensures th= ese >> > judgments are being made in an transparent and consistent way. >> > >> > Scott >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Niels ten Oever >> >> > >> wrote: >> > >> > Thanks for this Scott. >> > >> > If we look at the current standing practice for security >> > considerations then I think we should go for examples instead >> of a test. >> > >> > So would more examples (per feature and right impacted) be >> > sufficient in your opinion? >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Niels >> > >> > On 6 Jul 2016 5:40 p.m., Scott Craig > >> > >> wrote: >> > >> > Hey Niels, >> > >> > Thanks for this. >> > >> > The fundamental issue I have is that the method you have >> used to >> > claim links between features and rights is a black box. >> There is >> > no discernible basis for the links other than your own >> judgement. >> > >> > I don=E2=80=99t in any way doubt the quality of your judge= ment. But I >> > struggle to see how it provides sufficient grounds on whic= h to >> > expect every IETF engineer to pay additional attention to = the >> > features in the document. >> > >> > The idea of a test was simply a way to add some rigour to >> these >> > claims in order to give them some means of defence if they= are >> > challenged and some means of adjudication if they are >> disputed. >> > Right now you are literally just saying that you talked to >> some >> > people and then you decided which things were linked. >> > >> > " It is on the basis of these various case studies, >> > elaborate discussion on the mailing list and at >> various IETF >> > conferences that we came to determine whether an >> > architectural feature is a 'crucial ingredient for >> enabling >> > the ability to exercise specific rights=E2=80=99. " >> > >> > >> > Simply saying /=E2=80=98We came to determine=E2=80=99/ as = the method for >> > determining the central claims made in the document just i= sn=E2=80=99t >> > good enough. You can describe this process as =E2=80=98pr= oposing >> > vectors of analysis=E2=80=99 if you want but this is no mo= re than an >> > obfuscated synonym for authors judgement. >> > >> > If I was an aircraft engineer and my colleagues informed >> me that >> > the contents of the pre-flight check had been determined b= y >> > people who had talked to aircraft engineers doing doing >> =E2=80=98vectors >> > of analysis=E2=80=99 and that no criteria had then been us= ed to >> evaluate >> > and prioritise what we were being asked to check then I >> would be >> > terrified for the passengers. This exercise is no less ser= ious >> > and demands no less rigour. >> > >> > If the point of the document is to ask engineers to give >> greater >> > attention to the architectural features it highlights then= a >> > black box judgement cannot be a solid enough basis on whic= h to >> > make that request. >> > >> > It would be great to know whether others think the current >> > method is sufficient. >> > >> > Scott Craig >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:28 PM, Niels ten Oever >> > >> >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Scott, >> > >> > I have been thinking a lot about your suggestions. I t= hink >> > the test you >> > have been proposing might not be applicable for a >> technical >> > environment >> > (but am happy to be proven wrong). >> > >> > I do not think we can exhaustively list and map the ri= sks >> > that protocols >> > generate in relation to rights. >> > >> > I would also like to add that the test you propose is >> > neither part nor a >> > requirement in for instance security considerations: >> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2223#section-9 >> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552 >> > >> > Similar to the guidelines on security considerations >> RFC3552 >> > and the >> > guidelines on privacy considerations RFC6973 we've >> proposed >> > vectors of >> > analysis and provided examples. >> > >> > That these vectors might not be exhaustive and always >> > context dependent >> > are for me no arguments to hold the draft back. >> > >> > Furthermore I think the guidelines provide an input fo= r >> > discussion of >> > drafts during drafting phase, but also when they're >> > discussed for review >> > in other WGs or later on in the IESG. Decisions and >> reviews are >> > documented (and arguments are provided), so I am not s= ure >> > whether one >> > can say the standpoints are arbitrary, nor that the >> > judgments are not >> > replicable or cannot be contested (there are processes= for >> > that, that >> > can get weighed by the appropriate groups). It is not >> like these >> > guidelines for considerations are applied blindly. >> > >> > If I understood you incorrectly, could you perhaps >> > illustrate the test a >> > bit more in the specific case of security consideratio= ns? >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Niels >> > >> > >> > >> > Niels ten Oever >> > Head of Digital >> > >> > Article 19 >> > www.article19.org >> >> > >> > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 >> > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 >> > >> > On 06/27/2016 12:57 PM, Scott Craig wrote: >> > > Hi Niels, >> > > >> > > I=E2=80=99ve attached a document with comments on th= e >> pre-adoption >> > draft. >> > > >> > > I am still hoping that someone can address the >> concerns I >> > raised on the >> > > list about the methodology. I refer specifically to = the >> > method by which >> > > an architectural feature has been (or can be) claime= d to >> > 'shape the >> > > enabling environment' for a right. >> > > >> > > Raised here >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00401.html >> > > here >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00408.html >> > > and here >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg00417.html >> > > >> > > Though I agree with some of your conclusions, I do n= ot >> > think the >> > > justification for the claims you have made withstand= s >> > scrutiny. As a >> > > result it=E2=80=99s presently difficult to see how a= n engineer >> > could justify >> > > giving additional attention to the features >> highlighted in >> > the draft. >> > > >> > > To re-state what I said previously: >> > > >> > > I think the method you have described (quoted below)= *_is >> > great for >> > > identifying _**/_candidate features_/*. But my >> concern is >> > that it=E2=80=99s >> > > insufficient to determine that a candidate feature i= s an >> > enabling (or >> > > restricting) feature. >> > > >> > > /" It is on the basis of these various case stud= ies, >> > elaborate >> > > discussion on the mailinglist and at various IET= F >> > conferences that >> > > *we came to determine whether an architectural >> > feature* is a >> > > 'crucial ingredient for enabling the ability to >> > exercise specific >> > > rights=E2=80=99. "/ >> > > >> > > If no explicit test is applied to the candidate feat= ures >> > > after identification, I think this causes three >> problems: >> > > >> > > (1) *Judgements* *are arbitrary * >> > > >> > > i.e there is no basis on which to argue that the >> threshold >> > for inclusion >> > > was the same for one technical concept as for anothe= r. >> > > >> > > (2) *Judgements are not replicable. * >> > > >> > > i.e it is not possible to claim that different autho= rs >> > would not have >> > > come to significantly different conclusions than you >> have. >> > > >> > > (3) *Judgements cannot be contested * >> > > >> > > e.g if someone were to disagree with your contention >> that >> > > internationalisation has a bearing on the right to >> political >> > > participation, on what basis would we adjudicate who= is >> > correct? >> > > >> > > Scott >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Niels ten Oever >> > >> > >> > > > > >>> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi all, >> > > >> > > To create a next RG version of the >> > draft-tenoever-hrpc-research ID, it's >> > > probably good to draft a clear way forward. >> > > >> > > We have had some really good comments and review= s >> > during and before the >> > > call for adoption, thanks for that, but if we >> want to >> > bring this further >> > > we will need some more reviews. >> > > >> > > Two people (Shane and Giovanni) are currently >> testing >> > the guidelines for >> > > human rights considerations on two actual drafts= , >> > which we hope can be >> > > presented in Berlin. >> > > >> > > Avri mentioned she had elaborate feedback on the >> > current draft and >> > > Collin Anderson mentioned he would do a review >> of the >> > draft, which would >> > > both be greatly appeciated. >> > > >> > > So now we're looking for a third and potentially >> > fourth reviewer who >> > > could review the draft in within the coming two >> weeks >> > so we can create a >> > > new version ahead of IETF96 in Berlin. >> > > >> > > What we're looking for is a review of the whole >> > document with more or >> > > less coherent notes, suggestions and/or criticis= ms >> > with which we could >> > > improve the document. >> > > >> > > Looking forward to hear from you! >> > > >> > > Best, >> > > >> > > Niels >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Niels ten Oever >> > > Head of Digital >> > > >> > > Article 19 >> > > www.article19.org >> >> > >> > > >> > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 >> > > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > hrpc mailing list >> > > hrpc@irtf.org >> > > >> > >> >> > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > >> > > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow >> > > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org >> * >> > > *E:* scraig@cdt.org >> > | >> > *D:* 1.202.407.8887 >> > >> > > >> >> | **@scottdavidcraig >> > > >> > > */ >> > > /* >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow >> > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org >> * >> > *E:* scraig@cdt.org >> > | *D:* 1.202.407.8887 >> | **@scottdavidcraig >> > >> > */ >> > /* >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > *Scott Craig* | Ford-Mozilla Fellow >> > Center for Democracy & Technology |* cdt.org >> * >> > *E:* scraig@cdt.org | >> *D:* 1.202.407.8887 >> > > | **@scottdavidcraig >> > >> > */ >> > /* >> > >> > --=20 Joseph Lorenzo Hall Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org] 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 From nobody Sun Jul 17 10:59:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C46F12D13F for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2016 10:59:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.077 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.077 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=Zr1hDS6/; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=NG4K8h24 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V2izM5cCNh2J for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2016 10:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA62D12B01E for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2016 10:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.227.85.212]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u6HHxNCk010403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 17 Jul 2016 10:59:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1468778376; x=1468864776; bh=CvP5G96+v0Qj1D2egpcDT8Pcr9f6GM4fIyyfH0OrLEs=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=Zr1hDS6/bBUGxM4X0lDjfgS1DZMJ0dPZdCXwZeCbcbFYpNGlVp8UALoCD4mcIGepu ASTeYC4R36gw9bSqCstlkUAGzzK7UdhPB4Z5zc9HryqLfaDle5N81zpdbHPj31XWRz UxOEkRjm8vLAUmGdDKhwlK5sUle/+mlqXh7cWiwU= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1468778376; x=1468864776; i=@elandsys.com; bh=CvP5G96+v0Qj1D2egpcDT8Pcr9f6GM4fIyyfH0OrLEs=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=NG4K8h24wpF1ZUfE8tNNpUqeHOa4t1rUj6HSISm83wpEcY8d2EWXAHqsyqhUbUzWD 5+V85Bd7vnqFqZakw5jkH3a4bvxE+llSohO6l5F7wSY815YwWed1LkgIszvcSKeeTA wXHzF+WPBlCPuVFPImAY8yn/sc+x2rO/w7VuJff0= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160717095754.0c5c7b60@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 10:48:19 -0700 To: Niels ten Oever From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <9ac33307-4c1d-4d95-a79a-4392f5fc0268@article19.org> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20160716034140.0a180b60@elandnews.com> <9ac33307-4c1d-4d95-a79a-4392f5fc0268@article19.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: Corinne Cath , hrpc@irtf.org Subject: Re: [hrpc] Value system in the achitecture X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 17:59:51 -0000 Hi Niels, At 00:33 17-07-2016, Niels ten Oever wrote: >I suspect that you are referring to: Yes. >That is exactly the question of the draft. > > > Once a value system is embedded in the > > architecture it is difficult to remove it or not use it. > >Depends how it's done. Also: Brown et al argue that currently already >values are embedded in the architecture. >https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-03#section-4 I'll comment about the SDO first. There isn't any agreement in the IETF about what is human rights. The UDHR reference was only mentioned during a controversy about a very controversial IETF issue. I don't know whether that was discussed in the IRTF (the IRTF is not part of the IETF). Some of the terms in your draft have been discussed on an IETF mailing list from a specification perspective, e.g. protocol, standards. In response to your comment about the Brown et all paper, are you referring to the design choices which have "give users considerable autonomy"? That could be viewed in terms of bypassing communication networks which were set within a country. >One can use different implementations of DNS: >https://yeti-dns.org/ >http://dns.dot-bit.org/ I was referring to the unique public name space instead of implementations of DNS. >The word 'ideology' is mentioned in the draft at all. Ok. >The aim is: (1) to bring forth which values are being used while >designing the protocols and (2) understand their (enabeling or adverse) >impacts on human rights, as per the charter of hrpc: In your opinion, isn't the values a matter of ideology [1]? I recall commenting about Section 8.3 of what became the specification for the Forwarded HTTP Extension. If I had to provide an explanation fro my preference, I would say that I prefer to tell the user what is correct instead of what is not incorrect if there might be an impact on the user. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. A system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy From nobody Sun Jul 17 23:11:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C02912D0F9; Sun, 17 Jul 2016 23:10:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.28.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160718061056.30572.87924.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 23:10:56 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Subject: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-04.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 06:10:56 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations of the IETF. Title : Research into Human Rights Protocol Considerations Authors : Niels ten Oever Corinne Cath Filename : draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-04.txt Pages : 69 Date : 2016-07-17 Abstract: The proliferating convolution of Internet and society increases the impact of the Internet on the lives of individuals. Because of this, the design and development of the architecture of the Internet also has a growing impact on society. This has led to an broad recognition that human rights [UDHR] [ICCPR] [ICESCR] have a role in the development and management of the Internet [HRC2012] [UNGA2013] [NETmundial]. It has also been argued that the Internet should be strengthened as a human rights enabling environment [Brown]. This document provides a proposal for a vocabulary to discuss the relation between human rights and Internet protocols, an overview of the discussion in technical and academic literature and communities, a proposal for the mapping of the relation between human rights and technical concepts, and a proposal for guidelines for human rights considerations, similar to the work done on the guidelines for privacy considerations [RFC6973]. Discussion of this draft at: hrpc@irtf.org // https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tenoever-hrpc-research/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 18 01:16:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0CC12D095 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 01:16:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRJ8gxr8m9Zw for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 01:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 073BC12B008 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 01:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DF3A226E18; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 08:15:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A4AA226E1A; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 08:15:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.11.174] (pD9EA989B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.234.152.155]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 924DB226E18; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 08:15:56 +0000 (UTC) To: S Moonesamy References: <6.2.5.6.2.20160716034140.0a180b60@elandnews.com> <9ac33307-4c1d-4d95-a79a-4392f5fc0268@article19.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20160717095754.0c5c7b60@elandnews.com> From: Niels ten Oever X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <6b0796da-50d6-af88-f683-62d137ad6a8e@article19.org> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:15:50 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20160717095754.0c5c7b60@elandnews.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="w4L2F10SWqR770hbTo6EU7F5V6rQF927q" Archived-At: Cc: Corinne Cath , hrpc@irtf.org Subject: Re: [hrpc] Value system in the achitecture X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 08:16:02 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --w4L2F10SWqR770hbTo6EU7F5V6rQF927q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear S. Moonesamy, Thanks for this, reply inline: On 07/17/2016 07:48 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Niels, > At 00:33 17-07-2016, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> I suspect that you are referring to: >=20 > Yes. >=20 >> That is exactly the question of the draft. >> >> > Once a value system is embedded in the >> > architecture it is difficult to remove it or not use it. >> >> Depends how it's done. Also: Brown et al argue that currently already >> values are embedded in the architecture. >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-03#section-4 >=20 > I'll comment about the SDO first. There isn't any agreement in the IET= F > about what is human rights. =20 I think there is quite a strong global consensus on what human rights are, and there are documents in which these are documented, like the UDHR, ICCPR and ICESCR. I do not think it's useful to redefine what human rights are in the IETF or IRTF. > The UDHR reference was only mentioned > during a controversy about a very controversial IETF issue. =20 Link? > I don't > know whether that was discussed in the IRTF (the IRTF is not part of th= e > IETF).=20 It has been extensively on this list. > Some of the terms in your draft have been discussed on an IETF > mailing list from a specification perspective, e.g. protocol, standards= =2E >=20 Which have been studies, as you can find in the methdology paragraph of the draft. > In response to your comment about the Brown et all paper, are you > referring to the design choices which have "give users considerable > autonomy"? That could be viewed in terms of bypassing communication > networks which were set within a country. Not sure I understand. >=20 >> One can use different implementations of DNS: >> https://yeti-dns.org/ >> http://dns.dot-bit.org/ >=20 > I was referring to the unique public name space instead of > implementations of DNS. >=20 >> The word 'ideology' is mentioned in the draft at all. >=20 > Ok. >=20 >> The aim is: (1) to bring forth which values are being used while >> designing the protocols and (2) understand their (enabeling or adverse= ) >> impacts on human rights, as per the charter of hrpc: >=20 > In your opinion, isn't the values a matter of ideology [1]? >=20 One doesn't need to agree on ideology in order to be able to agree on values. > I recall commenting about Section 8.3 of what became the specification > for the Forwarded HTTP Extension. If I had to provide an explanation > fro my preference, I would say that I prefer to tell the user what is > correct instead of what is not incorrect if there might be an impact on= > the user. >=20 Not sure if I understand. Best, Niels > Regards, > S. Moonesamy >=20 > 1. A system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis o= f > economic or political theory and policy=20 --w4L2F10SWqR770hbTo6EU7F5V6rQF927q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXjJA2AAoJEAi1oPJjbWjpjjIIAJvQtLVje7YPSHFpZ0zNhxNR pvtgf92PWvQcGwvGYOAABdCMvcEhSGJN5nu9D5/muVT01FzWHBBYbTOhE/hgbI9W nUUCIPtv2LJB8FXLTAPc0wwdGSA4hQa0rdhyNPXLVr5uW1oRcK0quIbuHf9DD3k3 gUhNpmqOQtGguE2r2e2gAN+jF3xAx3gEI2pcZZYxazoYJJmwOoiP1gPmd665qsMB gcLxRBJEASHMInzJP5ci2xMA5Dh3gr0uivpk5Yb93BI4TGGBgKstpZPjk47E5clS vbd55ahZ7z8tOqNXervGbEzknYE7wWYsI2z4KFS901OZCq9UGg3RX5i9rNnAv5M= =iDQB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --w4L2F10SWqR770hbTo6EU7F5V6rQF927q-- From nobody Mon Jul 18 06:52:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC3712DADE for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 06:52:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.077 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.077 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=2dJZ3Lmr; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=C6GKgZTp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DS5YHpRGwaAi for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 06:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53E112DD2E for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2016 06:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SUBMAN.elandsys.com ([197.227.85.212]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u6IDRDit013310 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Jul 2016 06:27:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1468848446; x=1468934846; bh=Rt/HGVZrBt1d4O/NKuhVrUc+JjHOfeJWliDevQmb2Do=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=2dJZ3LmrrO6Op2kmwMBymUHSed+roOTzEAxmoyF6c28ay8N6y83n6nnVQFVbSXBlG VgHKFWkCzzmGvFwta8xPbiJLJW+j4b1LL/RfQMBefF7MqANZl7ICiTfFgT6Px65uHI 5vVTBa/HNzd3IZXwr7D2YL2FoZd7gNvuYpdJn5lI= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1468848446; x=1468934846; i=@elandsys.com; bh=Rt/HGVZrBt1d4O/NKuhVrUc+JjHOfeJWliDevQmb2Do=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=C6GKgZTpGk5JajijQuxPvWw1B9NJioBEtf8UAoUNDkh2m78B2eEbNboGlzGfWwJLC 1wrqDf5DJIPJkC1fv51OHm63ObAeXV0ay/2sOOYKqtsQB9rTxZRk4VkDROOZFykVGG Wz3ZLovU/F+hfOOSNAbrJdguqSu/TgGJoJYDCmdM= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20160718050226.0ce9bb70@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 06:18:02 -0700 To: Niels ten Oever From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <6b0796da-50d6-af88-f683-62d137ad6a8e@article19.org> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20160716034140.0a180b60@elandnews.com> <9ac33307-4c1d-4d95-a79a-4392f5fc0268@article19.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20160717095754.0c5c7b60@elandnews.com> <6b0796da-50d6-af88-f683-62d137ad6a8e@article19.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: Corinne Cath , hrpc@irtf.org Subject: Re: [hrpc] Value system in the achitecture X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 13:52:08 -0000 Hi Niels, At 01:15 18-07-2016, Niels ten Oever wrote: >I think there is quite a strong global consensus on what human rights >are, and there are documents in which these are documented, like the >UDHR, ICCPR and ICESCR. I do not think it's useful to redefine what >human rights are in the IETF or IRTF. Yes. >Link? Please see the thread which starts at https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg98613.html >One doesn't need to agree on ideology in order to be able to agree on >values. A person follows the laws of his/her country. For example, there aren't laws in every country about anonymity as a right [1]. Some countries do not have data protection laws. I commented about Cybersecurity previously [2]. There has been standards-related discussions about encryption. Should anonymity be built into the standards? Sorry if any of teh above is not clear. Please feel free to ask me to explain. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Opinion/Communications/Article19.pdf 2. http://1net-mail.1net.org/pipermail/discuss/2014-January/000647.html From nobody Wed Jul 20 06:08:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574E512D516 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 06:08:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cKBcdAH0JaFB for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 06:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22e.google.com (mail-vk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F105012D1B9 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 06:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id x130so68188288vkc.0 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 06:08:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=J3cI/h4Vfs5anpixv8tQq64yI6YWzLp81hH7OJn8S5U=; b=o+CejgvNBMhLwo5n/dgxQMB5KwL1Hj4rily9Tr/Ye9pr9TuOmcXjNvHmXjpDvISP3B /Lz9UJcnsJAImpkLoIDXUaC7LOKQNGNILq7vzc83KfhpgTYP3wULyXWZUdI22jj191w1 96NzbRFPYOq5aOkVpZ6AVSpdhbkBB8I9/2DVo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=J3cI/h4Vfs5anpixv8tQq64yI6YWzLp81hH7OJn8S5U=; b=Ga055BKvNXXGhsdFn/6nPp41W+eCL8mg/zqSeu+EyW4jTkN7jJ9fhg79QBP5iMkIH6 N54MZ8IB+kjBTZvXia0zdyybqx095GPIMn8L2GqIXEQNSaWmbAavMVgqlHynGbyaaekC M8gPxdrRlmNH04G3Oco3lL1OizcnlyIM7UZCplDQlI5P7Z68vjvlpYXcROHt0XQqpO1B XwJA92+LMD6Q2yZa6y5sDUzJWLQaZ48TJSpjAiU/McpxlKI8g3QlgJuHOVxy8xM305aH 7Bb2ESe16SVBC9xkbtQVeu9VsSnFe08d8u0v/ddcyHJvEyBwrukAv/T+H9Gp1V4I3+BH hp+w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKEuv45izgpxJWcBhImNEFcSRdtyT9PBrdrFIhwByAI7n0HsMsXmL0A0AGFpVLz07B0Cq6v+ybCRnzy+cFY X-Received: by 10.31.92.15 with SMTP id q15mr23355693vkb.92.1469020106033; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 06:08:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.29.71 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 06:08:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <193c1ce1-cce8-0929-e7d3-5513d7c40ff6@article19.org> References: <5c372fed-4623-7498-7837-82dc967b802c@article19.org> <193c1ce1-cce8-0929-e7d3-5513d7c40ff6@article19.org> From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 15:08:06 +0200 Message-ID: To: Niels ten Oever Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Scott Craig , hrpc@irtf.org Subject: Re: [hrpc] Methods for establishing the relationships between features and rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 13:08:30 -0000 On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi Scott, > > In that case I might have misunderstood your comments, let me try to > give it another try, what about replacing the existing explanatory > paragraph at 5.2.2: > > > This analysis aims to translate human rights concepts that impact or > are impacted by the Internet as follows: > > The combination of content agnosticism, connectivity, security, > privacy (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and open standards are the > technical principles that underlie freedom of expression on the > Internet. > > into: > > The combination of the technical concepts that have been gathered the > steps above have been grouped according to their impact on specific > rights as they have been mentioned in the interviews done at IETF92 as > well as study of literature (see literature and discussion review above). > > This analysis aims to assist protocol developers by understanding better > understanding the roles specific technical concepts with regards to the > possibility to exercise human rights on the Internet. > > This analysis does not claim to be an complete or exhaustive mapping of > all possible ways in which a protocols could potentially impact human > rights, but it presents an initial combined concept mapping based on > interviews and literature and discussion review. (apologies, mean to send this a few days ago but it's been sitting in my Drafts folder for some stupid reason.) I like this new language! I do think the bracket figures need to be explained a bit more, but I think I can offer PRs for that (or can offer language here and we can hammer that into a PR). (Didn't the interviews happen at IETF91 (Honolulu) not 92 (Dallas)?) Cheers and see you all at 3:50p! From nobody Wed Jul 20 07:40:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F88128E18 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 07:40:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b_WTHUzQwNIJ for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 07:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (mx2.yitter.info [IPv6:2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:cfab]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A482912B031 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 07:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49BF210D3A for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:40:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx2.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx2.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vkeSK1Cz4EiJ for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:40:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx2.yitter.info (dhcp-b2a2.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.178.162]) by mx2.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 735D010D2D for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:40:25 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 10:40:22 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20160720144022.GA48830@mx2.yitter.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] open standards, proprietary closure, and the "non-core" protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:40:33 -0000 Hi, Laura DeNardis said something interesting in reply to me at the mic today, and it caused me to get up again, but we were running out of time. But I think there's an important fact that we need to keep in mind here. Basically, the problem of open standards adoption is that of incentives. On the Internet, you can't actually force anyone to do anything. You can only give them the incentives to do things that you want. This is because it's a network of networks, and such a system actually has no central point of control where you _could_ force. So, in her remarks about examples like proprietary Internet payment systems and "Internet of Things" protocols, there is a serious problem in that people appear to be buying proprietary protocols. (I might suggest that the issues around several social media networks are just the same: many of them are really closed protocols that happen to run over the Internet instead of being part of the Internet.) But people are _choosing_ those proprietary systems, because that's what it means when GiantMedia has 1 billion users and LightSwitchCo is selling to people who install that switch. The problem here, in effect, is the same one that the Free Software advocates faced for many years (and mostly continue to face in consumer-directed systems). I believe that open protocols are much better, but if people are willing to buy a device that only implements proprietary protocols, it doesn't seem like there's much we can do about that except make better alternatives. And they've got to be better in the sense that product makers prefer the interoperating standards over their closed examples. It therefore seems to me that the problem here is not protocol considerations, but consumption considerations: if you value the ability to use open systems, you should prefer them when buying. Just as you wouldn't buy a car that could only take the manufacturer's special fuel, you shouldn't buy an Internet-connected device tht can't talk to any other kind of device, either. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Wed Jul 20 10:15:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1026D12D77A for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 10:15:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ssq8XZbPALdd for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 10:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2C8912D73C for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 10:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0A871F26D7E; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 17:15:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E23B23B56EA; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 17:15:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [31.133.161.112] (dhcp-a170.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.161.112]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 587441F26D7E; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 17:15:37 +0000 (UTC) To: Joseph Lorenzo Hall References: <5c372fed-4623-7498-7837-82dc967b802c@article19.org> <193c1ce1-cce8-0929-e7d3-5513d7c40ff6@article19.org> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <1ac53f95-d5a7-ca8d-2e6c-4c26a5265341@article19.org> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 19:15:36 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FrfWpHuWRiLVBtu8bsJ8fOH5sIn5KeUgu" Archived-At: Cc: Scott Craig , hrpc@irtf.org Subject: Re: [hrpc] Methods for establishing the relationships between features and rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 17:15:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --FrfWpHuWRiLVBtu8bsJ8fOH5sIn5KeUgu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joe, On 07/20/2016 03:08 PM, Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote: > On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >> Hi Scott, >> >> In that case I might have misunderstood your comments, let me try to >> give it another try, what about replacing the existing explanatory >> paragraph at 5.2.2: >> >> >> This analysis aims to translate human rights concepts that impact o= r >> are impacted by the Internet as follows: >> >> The combination of content agnosticism, connectivity, security, >> privacy (as defined in [RFC6973] ), and open standards are the >> technical principles that underlie freedom of expression on the >> Internet. >> >> into: >> >> The combination of the technical concepts that have been gathered the >> steps above have been grouped according to their impact on specific >> rights as they have been mentioned in the interviews done at IETF92 as= >> well as study of literature (see literature and discussion review abov= e). >> >> This analysis aims to assist protocol developers by understanding bett= er >> understanding the roles specific technical concepts with regards to th= e >> possibility to exercise human rights on the Internet. >> >> This analysis does not claim to be an complete or exhaustive mapping o= f >> all possible ways in which a protocols could potentially impact human >> rights, but it presents an initial combined concept mapping based on >> interviews and literature and discussion review. >=20 > (apologies, mean to send this a few days ago but it's been sitting in > my Drafts folder for some stupid reason.) >=20 > I like this new language! I do think the bracket figures need to be > explained a bit more, but I think I can offer PRs for that (or can > offer language here and we can hammer that into a PR). >=20 Nice! Happy we're making progress. Looking forward to discuss. > (Didn't the interviews happen at IETF91 (Honolulu) not 92 (Dallas)?) >=20 Nopes, the interviews happened in Dallas, I remember that hotel room really well :) Cheers, Niels > Cheers and see you all at 3:50p! >=20 --FrfWpHuWRiLVBtu8bsJ8fOH5sIn5KeUgu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXj7G4AAoJEAi1oPJjbWjp178H/0I2CGts3HfI0VgNL2dGse2p f0O3FWapcuO7FwZYpmo8ggCVs5ACRHC81GawSP33STiK6eDbw1YBCx8RHYNrgKZL k+Z2CxomaqRPfW/l/DZDYIKB9m4fZSW8uo6LrIAMjmYxgwvoh3wczAulwYSBwJ7Z ALbdrB9P5zppABX04O4SfY6XhNyK10JxZOvwSxEq3X8qodlIyQ0wIXjOUlAl5Jte NVbpNs6WXg/xnZsXl1MoqvTb0a6JMMTfRvo4T0p1btbdi8kxhTUt2kg+PI5FyYVQ 7csrm3O54mcRLD85+NEbzQtEDC7WooEpAkTCheFNnLrMo1cZmgS12kSK2TZ7wjg= =KDDz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FrfWpHuWRiLVBtu8bsJ8fOH5sIn5KeUgu-- From nobody Wed Jul 20 14:00:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA31512D780 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:00:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6GzBhlOd_5BG for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time-travellers.nl.eu.org (c.time-travellers.nl.eu.org [IPv6:2a02:2770::21a:4aff:fea3:eeaa]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB60912D60C for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from port-87-193-211-36.static.qsc.de ([87.193.211.36] helo=pallas.home.time-travellers.org) by time-travellers.nl.eu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1bPybB-0000MN-Cr; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 21:00:09 +0000 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 23:00:05 +0200 From: Shane Kerr To: Andrew Sullivan Message-ID: <20160720230005.093b0147@pallas.home.time-travellers.org> In-Reply-To: <20160720144022.GA48830@mx2.yitter.info> References: <20160720144022.GA48830@mx2.yitter.info> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.13.2 (GTK+ 2.24.30; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Sig_/PKafbwDp4QDMS1eM3W+d1Cg"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Subject: Re: [hrpc] open standards, proprietary closure, and the "non-core" protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 21:00:17 -0000 --Sig_/PKafbwDp4QDMS1eM3W+d1Cg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew, At 2016-07-20 10:40:22 -0400 Andrew Sullivan wrote: > It therefore seems to me that the problem here is not protocol > considerations, but consumption considerations: if you value the > ability to use open systems, you should prefer them when buying. Just > as you wouldn't buy a car that could only take the manufacturer's > special fuel, you shouldn't buy an Internet-connected device tht can't > talk to any other kind of device, either. This seems a higher-level point than this research group is addressing, but maybe not? I mean, it sort of sounds like: "How can we design protocols that convince people to deploy them?"=20 This is especially difficult since vendors have goals that are opposite of openness: vendor lock-in is a bonus, access fees are a great source of revenue, consumer control is a problem to be solved, and so on.=20 As I say, this sounds like a general IETF (or wider) problem, not necessarily a human rights issue. Cheers, -- Shane --Sig_/PKafbwDp4QDMS1eM3W+d1Cg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAleP5lUACgkQMsfZxBO4kbQeWACfSafUOwUT4oL2jFOoPkZs+fP6 vMoAn1d6mSrdEXgChnmhwZo9gFHWiYOo =DdNx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/PKafbwDp4QDMS1eM3W+d1Cg-- From nobody Wed Jul 20 23:19:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592EC12DA48 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 23:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.807 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.807 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F4vh8AwseOiO for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 23:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDC7E12DA44 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 23:18:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9730; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1469081940; x=1470291540; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to; bh=kj9DSKi4fVf/FDFyqcVAIPafgpu37Wg3x7DCqXrD+os=; b=VRPNr3llva/rPJTGrcsrVL+/p+dBvbrXnFC6PAEXTQbGo+DkxWnn3inh 2aSEUmzcXOZpT2NaVLcRi5xyy4E9EcC8clr+7K34Hd3T7vYc1RfIOtBJi i4GcL8J3O3SLiZXB7hMBMeKN5JXrCYyCX6y3ikimPDz0nwzVcb2eLxJ6Z k=; X-Files: signature.asc : 481 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ADEACoaJBX/xbLJq1VCIQ/tDCGf4Jjg?= =?us-ascii?q?zcCgXsBAQEBAQFmJ4RdAQUjZgsOCioCAlcGAQwIAQGILK9SjWYBAQEBAQEBAwE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBARAOiCKBUoEDhB6DI4JaAQSIJpEAgziBcIlDiVKFaJAhVIILHIFOO?= =?us-ascii?q?ogKAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.28,398,1464652800"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="636922906" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Jul 2016 06:18:57 +0000 Received: from [10.61.202.183] ([10.61.202.183]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u6L6IvL4000652; Thu, 21 Jul 2016 06:18:57 GMT To: Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org References: <20160720144022.GA48830@mx2.yitter.info> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <36f6ac96-f8da-e4da-a9f4-b8471eec468c@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 08:18:56 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160720144022.GA48830@mx2.yitter.info> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4a5QcUoK82PeAhIfTVndGKHNjWDPhVS8X" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] open standards, proprietary closure, and the "non-core" protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 06:19:02 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --4a5QcUoK82PeAhIfTVndGKHNjWDPhVS8X Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="oAKJLkq3qrCOQLtsH7Eg2e9egqVgCx0KK" From: Eliot Lear To: Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <36f6ac96-f8da-e4da-a9f4-b8471eec468c@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [hrpc] open standards, proprietary closure, and the "non-core" protocols References: <20160720144022.GA48830@mx2.yitter.info> In-Reply-To: <20160720144022.GA48830@mx2.yitter.info> --oAKJLkq3qrCOQLtsH7Eg2e9egqVgCx0KK Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------32ABD1B77E19953553EB8DB5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------32ABD1B77E19953553EB8DB5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andrew, I think this is a bit off topic, but there are as I see it two issues: * Part of this is that we are in a maturity cycle for many Things in which the product makers need to get to market, and do not have the time or money to invest in standardizing the functions they have. I see this in several areas, and usually this works for them until it doesn't, and it doesn't when enterprises wish not to be locked in.=20 Some of the Things we are talking about do have long lifetimes, and so it may take a longer time for this to run its course than in previous iterations. * The consumer market is different: here the vendor actively has incentive to NOT come to SDOs, not simply due to the cost of doing so, but because they end up having to address interoperability problems that could lead to device malfunctions. In the case of certain classes of devices, safety would be involved, aside from the simple desire to lock the consumer into a brand. Running against this current is the promise of some sort of horizontal integration, but anyone who has worked on home networking knows that it is more promise than anything else (with some small exceptions). That isn't to say there's no interoperability. Your home gateway has all sorts of standards information on the box. Not so much yet your Internet doorlock, and certainly not an Internet enabled toy. Eliot On 7/20/16 4:40 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Hi, > > Laura DeNardis said something interesting in reply to me at the mic > today, and it caused me to get up again, but we were running out of > time. But I think there's an important fact that we need to keep in > mind here. > > Basically, the problem of open standards adoption is that of > incentives. On the Internet, you can't actually force anyone to do > anything. You can only give them the incentives to do things that you > want. This is because it's a network of networks, and such a system > actually has no central point of control where you _could_ force. > > So, in her remarks about examples like proprietary Internet payment > systems and "Internet of Things" protocols, there is a serious problem > in that people appear to be buying proprietary protocols. (I might > suggest that the issues around several social media networks are just > the same: many of them are really closed protocols that happen to run > over the Internet instead of being part of the Internet.) But people > are _choosing_ those proprietary systems, because that's what it means > when GiantMedia has 1 billion users and LightSwitchCo is selling to > people who install that switch. > > The problem here, in effect, is the same one that the Free Software > advocates faced for many years (and mostly continue to face in > consumer-directed systems). I believe that open protocols are much > better, but if people are willing to buy a device that only implements > proprietary protocols, it doesn't seem like there's much we can do > about that except make better alternatives. And they've got to be > better in the sense that product makers prefer the interoperating > standards over their closed examples. > > It therefore seems to me that the problem here is not protocol > considerations, but consumption considerations: if you value the > ability to use open systems, you should prefer them when buying. Just > as you wouldn't buy a car that could only take the manufacturer's > special fuel, you shouldn't buy an Internet-connected device tht can't > talk to any other kind of device, either. > > Best regards, > > A > --------------32ABD1B77E19953553EB8DB5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Andrew,

I think this is a bit off topic, but there are as I see it two issues:

  • Part of this is that we are in a maturity cycle for many Things in which the product makers need to get to market, and do not have the time or money to invest in standardizing the functions they have.=C2=A0 I see this in several areas, and usual= ly this works for them until it doesn't, and it doesn't when enterprises wish not to be locked in.=C2=A0 Some of the Things we= are talking about do have long lifetimes, and so it may take a longer time for this to run its course than in previous iterations.
  • The consumer market is different: here the vendor actively has incentive to NOT come to SDOs, not simply due to the cost of doing so, but because they end up having to address interoperability problems that could lead to device malfunctions.=C2=A0 In the case of certain classes of devices, sa= fety would be involved, aside from the simple desire to lock the consumer into a brand.=C2=A0 Running against this current is the promise of some sort of horizontal integration, but anyone who has worked on home networking knows that it is more promise than anything else (with some small exceptions).
That isn't to say there's no interoperability.=C2=A0 Your home gatewa= y has all sorts of standards information on the box.=C2=A0 Not so much = yet your Internet doorlock, and certainly not an Internet enabled toy.
Eliot


On 7/20/16 4:40 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
Hi,

Laura DeNardis said something interesting in reply to me at the mic
today, and it caused me to get up again, but we were running out of
time.  But I think there's an important fact that we need to keep in
mind here.

Basically, the problem of open standards adoption is that of
incentives.  On the Internet, you can't actually force anyone to do
anything.  You can only give them the incentives to do things that you
want.  This is because it's a network of networks, and such a system
actually has no central point of control where you _could_ force.

So, in her remarks about examples like proprietary Internet payment
systems and "Internet of Things" protocols, there is a serious problem
in that people appear to be buying proprietary protocols.  (I might
suggest that the issues around several social media networks are just
the same: many of them are really closed protocols that happen to run
over the Internet instead of being part of the Internet.)  But people
are _choosing_ those proprietary systems, because that's what it means
when GiantMedia has 1 billion users and LightSwitchCo is selling to
people who install that switch.

The problem here, in effect, is the same one that the Free Software
advocates faced for many years (and mostly continue to face in
consumer-directed systems).  I believe that open protocols are much
better, but if people are willing to buy a device that only implements
proprietary protocols, it doesn't seem like there's much we can do
about that except make better alternatives.  And they've got to be
better in the sense that product makers prefer the interoperating
standards over their closed examples.

It therefore seems to me that the problem here is not protocol
considerations, but consumption considerations: if you value the
ability to use open systems, you should prefer them when buying.  Just
as you wouldn't buy a car that could only take the manufacturer's
special fuel, you shouldn't buy an Internet-connected device tht can't
talk to any other kind of device, either.

Best regards,

A

--------------32ABD1B77E19953553EB8DB5-- --oAKJLkq3qrCOQLtsH7Eg2e9egqVgCx0KK-- --4a5QcUoK82PeAhIfTVndGKHNjWDPhVS8X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXkGlRAAoJEIe2a0bZ0noz77MIAM1RfCotI7Ay6F33vg19eJht CWQU3Kj6sLL+5mzG4W0I9wlUORaBKvj6Vg0mIWlxdWZkhEgr4Bqkkxc17EvHnDN/ A+Dfeiw1CU2nmsdGu2O5OI6BBTZy7Fn48dPp3JN3ky++l1bHuvBz66vqLQkQtriq oIB9YsnD4bEzgpApULGKHD8O4Oup+MP0uBJi+TMtY/EhglkNg90tL1Ko5on10QVc 6mJhMx/Ga59YIPnCpYev8QW5hpippZKu8VOYokZ19a+85JUm9fmbEdC23wsVjcAD r12puBWzLrbRqv/M8wXmytfryJs292dHCaffSQRxZxv5u4tF0nlR0Q8L3hc9ksg= =OACh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4a5QcUoK82PeAhIfTVndGKHNjWDPhVS8X-- From nobody Sat Jul 23 10:39:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0D9D12D63B for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 10:39:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PK5LawjL9kbw for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 10:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (vps784.greenhost.nl [213.108.108.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5246812D662 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 10:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3600CF3952 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:39:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.io (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C936733C936 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:39:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.2.3] (p50992928.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.153.41.40]) by mail.article19.io (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E8250733C929 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:39:33 +0000 (UTC) To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <62158096-d480-4826-e25a-3c7564e1b1a2@article19.org> Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 19:39:33 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gpEORLKx9GFKeGEATCCI10RCtsNahKQlk" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] IETF96 notes, slides, etc posted X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 17:39:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --gpEORLKx9GFKeGEATCCI10RCtsNahKQlk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, Thanks a lot for a very productive meeting in Berlin. Thanks to dkg we already have the notes done, you can find them here: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-hrpc You can find all the slides and the recording here: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/hrpc.html Comments and improvements are always welcome of course. Looking forward to receive reviews for the research-ID in the coming month before moving to RG last call, as agreed in the session: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-04 I will send an email in the coming week with some questions in relation to Alissa's presentation here to the list, because I feel that discussion was cut short in Berlin. Also happy to continue any other discussion here of course. Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 --gpEORLKx9GFKeGEATCCI10RCtsNahKQlk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXk6vVAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjpGg0H/2kpdiF6luWclC2HCDrwWzSj uekewlKPdtNFXXkPo6Y4QOoPIrE4948mxNSHICTd951oGezp+G20gAEc8kLdFktD wPuCzkgMjJWvWL/5olmgfAGZ5zoISIknGAGyWHXV2kUZ+kjXJFD+a1bcMOJaqrUZ 19rT8XGQhy8If3khLDX/Gwd/e/3LDgvPGFQ9qsiyEenxqMkASLfTVA3wU8C9XJY5 buKeEiZVTnZVJb135iQyJuFcpJIeugM+GBP4yrtqMz8GspoDTfaIqlHO/ebuTK90 kSTgsNgnzpqKqyTCmlbWa+a8a2WZ4rClOJFdyACI79H8eF+1bQurEIcvheaHBPs= =Uavh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gpEORLKx9GFKeGEATCCI10RCtsNahKQlk-- From nobody Sun Jul 24 09:33:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B5512D1EA for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2016 09:33:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AjOWpdIB9n_X for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2016 09:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fece:1902]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA9A112D52D for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2016 09:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id DD5DC31C90; Sun, 24 Jul 2016 18:33:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3AB36190659; Sun, 24 Jul 2016 18:29:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 18:29:09 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20160724162909.GA1086@sources.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 8.4 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] A review of draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-04.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 16:33:12 -0000 TL;DR : good, and I think the RG last call (discussed in Berlin? I don't find it in minutes) is a reasonable idea. As you'll see, I have devoted most of my attention to section 5. The biggest problem, IMHO, is the discussion of IP options in 5.2.3. I know that we have already spent a lot of time on this (Andrew Sullivan raised the point again a few weeks ago in "way forward draft-tenoever-hrpc-research") but I still think the issue is unsettled. The current text in -04 is on the verge of paranoid (by giving the impression that the lack of multicast deployment was deliberately engineered for evil purposes) and, more important, it pushes "technical determinism" too far. The ability of people to associate and interact does not depend on whether IPv4 multicast is deployed or not. Basically, multicast was a bad idea from the beginning (it works only when many people want to have access to the same content AT THE SAME TIME, something which is now rare, except may be for some sport events). Its absence does nothing to prevent people from discussing on Web forums, mailing lists, or IRC channels. I suggest to delete the text starting with "The second is the selective..." Another issue (which is not easy to solve) is the mention of Namecoin in 5.2.4.1. The current text is technically correct but may give the impression that Namecoin has only strengths, not weaknesses, and that we endorse its use. I know it is not the case but I do not like the current text, not because of what it says, but because of what it omits. It claims "there is no technical auditing for name ownership [in the DNS]" which is true but forgets to add that, in Namecoin, there is a public ledger of changes, but based only on the possession of a cryptographic key. If your machine is infected with malware, you may lose your Namecoin name and there is no audit or recourse for that (the ledger will only show "legitimate" changes.) So, mentioning alternative techniques is a good idea, to illustrate a point, but we must be careful to add that it is not a fair comparison. Last important point, when rereading the evaluation of XMPP in 5.2.6, I cannot help thinking it is technically correct but it may make people consider that the XMPP authors were working for the NSA or the FSB, trying very hard to break human rights in the protocol. May be adding something that these evaluations are done on the basis of HR influence, and that the engineers who built these protocols had many other issues, and many trade-offs to consider (in the case of XMPP, the use of the servers, which has a lot of consequences for HR, is because user's machines are not reachable 100 % of the time.) A few details (I can send pull requests if some of these points are consensual): 5.2.5.1 : HSTS and certificate pinning are mentioned as solutions against TLS stripping but not DANE (RFC 6698). Why? 5.2.11 : the end of the section is quite sudden. It regrets the lack of a "de facto public space" but does not explain what it is (the concept of "public space", where free speech and demonstrations are possible, is not introduced anywhere). 5.3.2.1.7 : "Yet, open standards are not explicitly defined within the IETF" There is RFC 6852 but it is not a good reference since it mentions IEEE, a very closed SDO (its standards are not even freely available online). More a "governance circus" document than a real definition of open standards. Editorial : 5.2.5.2 : "The lack of a secure transport layer over HTTP connections" Isn't it _under_ and not _over_? HTTP is layered over TLS. 5.2.9 : it should be updated with respect to the publication of RFC 7725. For instance, replace "would be named" with "is named". From nobody Sun Jul 24 12:43:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28FBB12D08E for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2016 12:43:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bzpepckLQ8ZU for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2016 12:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fece:1902]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DEDA12B04C for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2016 12:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 025C231C90; Sun, 24 Jul 2016 21:43:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0FF88190646; Sun, 24 Jul 2016 21:40:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 21:40:06 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: draft-hall-censorship-tech.authors@ietf.org Message-ID: <20160724194005.GA23690@sources.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 8.4 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Subject: [hrpc] Review of draft-hall-censorship-tech-04 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 19:43:11 -0000 Summary: I really would like to see this document published (and quickly because it contains information which will become obsolete) becasue it is really useful but, IMHO, there are still a few problems to solve. I copy the HRPC research group because the draft, unlike many drafts, does not indicate a discussion venue. HRPC ? A security area mailing list? One of your TODOs: "talk about content inference through things like TLS fingerprinting?)" Probably yes, otherwise people may get the impression that encryption hides perfectly everything. I would add, after 3.2.5, a section "Identification with metadata" with something like: "A lot of information, leading to identification of something to censor, can be deduced from metadata, such as the size of the exchanged packets. TLS does nothing by default to hide this size and it has been demonstrated it is exploitable (reference: "Peek-a-Boo, I Still See You: Why Efficient Traffic Analysis Countermeasures Fail" by Kevin P. Dyer, Scott E. Coull, Thomas Ristenpart, Thomas Shrimpton ). Encryption alone does not work against this sort of inferences. There are several additional ways to make inference more difficult, but they are not obvious to use properly. One such way is padding, adding gratuitous data (see for instance RFC 7830)." Another one: "organize this section into layers just like identification above. Alternatively, the whole document can be organized in a layer structure and do identification and interference at the same time for each layer? That seems wise.)" May be but it is a lot of work and I would prefer to see the RFC published. Because it contains a lot of information that could become outdated in a few years, a version -2 could be made afterwards, with updated content and this reorganisation. Technical : 3.2.1 "an HTTP method field is necessary to do anything useful" I don't understand. AFAIK, you cannot send a HTTP request without indicating a method (RFC 7230, section 3.1.1). 4.3 "Sequence number is the hardest to get correct" RFC 5961 should be mentioned, since it describes the solutions to make it harder for the attacker to guest, thus preventing RST injection. 4.4 As I said (this is noted in the draft), the term "cache poisoning" has a very specific meaning for the DNS. The reference given describes something which exists but is not a cache poisoning at all (no cache is involved and the example is specially wrong because it clearly says the cache has the correct information). Yes, for the user, it is the same result in the end but, in a IETF document, we must certainly be precise. Cache poisoning could be done for censorship but, as I said, I'm not aware of documented cases. Editorial : s/operator of a resursive resolver/operator of a recursive resolver/ s/Bortzmayer/Bortzmeyer/g s/Boarder Gateway Protocol/Border Gateway Protocol/ From nobody Mon Jul 25 04:13:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0A0612D7B5 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2016 04:13:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fxWW0jOdQLDp for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2016 04:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22f.google.com (mail-vk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA2D612D7B4 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2016 04:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id n129so192916170vke.3 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2016 04:13:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RwJNtLjihYJVdNaGjtEWHRzrQUyV3u8S/dDH8B5+Mww=; b=JQgdWbgZ/Lki1j8uATzkVRZ6rEB0xuZm3HmypDVwqDRtur5iVry9RHRznUspHmaQ/v ZEveX/rbzxxNnBWyR8te0L1ZmSGJVpojXXiomyBnmBDBbZfcdx8jBqV0P19Ua0qdysHS 7J/WLRQBQBwGERagwmBqX54pHFkehSM+1+vuU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RwJNtLjihYJVdNaGjtEWHRzrQUyV3u8S/dDH8B5+Mww=; b=JxcNxF73HL8/mqj+BNUQC1GR3aBf4nIlzpbQfyuaQYepApuYF5ABENAWc2GUtruqzQ c2TBZ8hc2iV/K30YIuSbp78NbcewCgdoK6mp7gdGa85zu7RoxGAj1b0DVjDxMIKv2Mh6 ybR1hUce+utr+GPwyxnJs6+vMzEnyiOZa0V3helohzhThm0b/1VEqcUXQr+YdRXBnFTH 9idh2qfpxt0qHArMEET3hzHozcwKLGQWVGXwdl9KY5jL/Jq6a3h4RvYy6JVBVAisKFjf eosSR75Ri91DNePn75wZY5QMEYDhQgnOWet6ZBJUPcAkZ/wmC/OWRWemEltS/f8bRpDu Bjyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AEkoouuixnrpKLBPHVjT/9L4OSFhlesWdl1+ZM41G15uBgxj97nV3skE/Kod9AVzdrnd9RtyX1EDZ58tfgsQwKUi X-Received: by 10.176.1.8 with SMTP id 8mr8235834uak.93.1469445184734; Mon, 25 Jul 2016 04:13:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.29.70 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Jul 2016 04:13:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160724194005.GA23690@sources.org> References: <20160724194005.GA23690@sources.org> From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 13:13:03 +0200 Message-ID: To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d0e1a40de49053873de39 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-hall-censorship-tech.authors@ietf.org" , "hrpc@irtf.org" Subject: Re: [hrpc] Review of draft-hall-censorship-tech-04 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 11:13:08 -0000 --001a113d0e1a40de49053873de39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 (I'm on vacation this week, but will turn to edits quickly when I return.) On Sunday, July 24, 2016, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > Summary: I really would like to see this document published (and > quickly because it contains information which will become obsolete) > becasue it is really useful but, IMHO, there are still a few problems > to solve. > > I copy the HRPC research group because the draft, unlike many drafts, > does not indicate a discussion venue. HRPC ? A security area mailing > list? > > > > One of your TODOs: > > "talk about content inference through things like TLS > fingerprinting?)" Probably yes, otherwise people may get the > impression that encryption hides perfectly everything. I would add, > after 3.2.5, a section "Identification with metadata" with something > like: > > "A lot of information, leading to identification of something to > censor, can be deduced from metadata, such as the size of the > exchanged packets. TLS does nothing by default to hide this size and > it has been demonstrated it is exploitable (reference: "Peek-a-Boo, I > Still See You: Why Efficient Traffic Analysis Countermeasures Fail" by > Kevin P. Dyer, Scott E. Coull, Thomas Ristenpart, Thomas Shrimpton > < > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?reload=true&arnumber=6234422 > >). > > Encryption alone does not work against this sort of inferences. There > are several additional ways to make inference more difficult, but they > are not obvious to use properly. One such way is padding, adding > gratuitous data (see for instance RFC 7830)." > > > > Another one: > > "organize this section into layers just like identification above. > Alternatively, the whole document can be organized in a layer > structure and do identification and interference at the same time for > each layer? That seems wise.)" May be but it is a lot of work and I > would prefer to see the RFC published. Because it contains a lot of > information that could become outdated in a few years, a version -2 > could be made afterwards, with updated content and this > reorganisation. > > > > Technical : > > 3.2.1 "an HTTP method field is necessary to do anything useful" I > don't understand. AFAIK, you cannot send a HTTP request without > indicating a method (RFC 7230, section 3.1.1). > > 4.3 "Sequence number is the hardest to get correct" RFC 5961 should be > mentioned, since it describes the solutions to make it harder for the > attacker to guest, thus preventing RST injection. > > 4.4 As I said (this is noted in the draft), the term "cache poisoning" > has a very specific meaning for the DNS. The reference given > < > http://viewdns.info/research/dns-cache-poisoning-in-the-peoples-republic-of-china/ > > > describes something which exists but is not a cache poisoning at all > (no cache is involved and the example is specially wrong because it > clearly says the cache has the correct information). Yes, for the > user, it is the same result in the end but, in a IETF document, we > must certainly be precise. > > Cache poisoning could be done for censorship but, as I said, I'm not > aware of documented cases. > > > > Editorial : > > s/operator of a resursive resolver/operator of a recursive resolver/ > > s/Bortzmayer/Bortzmeyer/g > > s/Boarder Gateway Protocol/Border Gateway Protocol/ > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > -- Joseph Lorenzo Hall Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org] 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 --001a113d0e1a40de49053873de39 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (I'm on vacation this week, but will turn to edits quickly when I retur= n.)

On Sunday, July 24, 2016, Stephane Bortzmeyer <<= a href=3D"mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr">bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote:
Summary: I really would like to see this docume= nt published (and
quickly because it contains information which will become obsolete)
becasue it is really useful but, IMHO, there are still a few problems
to solve.

I copy the HRPC research group because the draft, unlike many drafts,
does not indicate a discussion venue. HRPC ? A security area mailing
list?



One of your TODOs:

"talk about content inference through things like TLS
fingerprinting?)" Probably yes, otherwise people may get the
impression that encryption hides perfectly everything. I would add,
after 3.2.5, a section "Identification with metadata" with someth= ing
like:

"A lot of information, leading to identification of something to
censor, can be deduced from metadata, such as the size of the
exchanged packets. TLS does nothing by default to hide this size and
it has been demonstrated it is exploitable (reference: "Peek-a-Boo, I<= br> Still See You: Why Efficient Traffic Analysis Countermeasures Fail" by=
Kevin P. Dyer, Scott E. Coull, Thomas Ristenpart, Thomas Shrimpton
<http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xp= l/articleDetails.jsp?reload=3Dtrue&arnumber=3D6234422>).

Encryption alone does not work against this sort of inferences. There
are several additional ways to make inference more difficult, but they
are not obvious to use properly. One such way is padding, adding
gratuitous data (see for instance RFC 7830)."



Another one:

"organize this section into layers just like identification above.
Alternatively, the whole document can be organized in a layer
structure and do identification and interference at the same time for
each layer?=C2=A0 That seems wise.)" May be but it is a lot of work an= d I
would prefer to see the RFC published. Because it contains a lot of
information that could become outdated in a few years, a version -2
could be made afterwards, with updated content and this
reorganisation.



Technical :

3.2.1 "an HTTP method field is necessary to do anything useful" I=
don't understand. AFAIK, you cannot send a HTTP request without
indicating a method (RFC 7230, section 3.1.1).

4.3 "Sequence number is the hardest to get correct" RFC 5961 shou= ld be
mentioned, since it describes the solutions to make it harder for the
attacker to guest, thus preventing RST injection.

4.4 As I said (this is noted in the draft), the term "cache poisoning&= quot;
has a very specific meaning for the DNS. The reference given
<http://viewdns.info/research/dns-= cache-poisoning-in-the-peoples-republic-of-china/>
describes something which exists but is not a cache poisoning at all
(no cache is involved and the example is specially wrong because it
clearly says the cache has the correct information). Yes, for the
user, it is the same result in the end but, in a IETF document, we
must certainly be precise.

Cache poisoning could be done for censorship but, as I said, I'm not aware of documented cases.



Editorial :

s/operator of a resursive resolver/operator of a recursive resolver/

s/Bortzmayer/Bortzmeyer/g

s/Boarder Gateway Protocol/Border Gateway Protocol/

_______________________________________________
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hrpc@irtf.org
ht= tps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
Chief Technologist, Cent= er for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org]
1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC= 20005-3497
e: joe@cdt= .org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
Fingerprint: 3CA2 8= D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 =C2=A01607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871
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Fri, 29 Jul 2016 10:16:14 +0000 (UTC) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20160724162909.GA1086@sources.org> From: Niels ten Oever X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <4ad1257c-6e53-592b-19f5-b9eda45d8bbe@article19.org> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 12:16:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160724162909.GA1086@sources.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="x5E8JDuWJ3PDRQ0LXuccNWO176NoWsmHr" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] A review of draft-tenoever-hrpc-research-04.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 10:17:08 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --x5E8JDuWJ3PDRQ0LXuccNWO176NoWsmHr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephane, Thanks for this! Reply inline: On 07/24/2016 06:29 PM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > TL;DR : good, and I think the RG last call (discussed in Berlin? I > don't find it in minutes) is a reasonable idea. I've updated the minutes to be more clear about the hum. >=20 > As you'll see, I have devoted most of my attention to section 5. >=20 > The biggest problem, IMHO, is the discussion of IP options in 5.2.3. I > know that we have already spent a lot of time on this (Andrew Sullivan > raised the point again a few weeks ago in "way forward > draft-tenoever-hrpc-research") but I still think the issue is > unsettled. The current text in -04 is on the verge of paranoid (by > giving the impression that the lack of multicast deployment was > deliberately engineered for evil purposes) and, more important, it > pushes "technical determinism" too far. The ability of people to > associate and interact does not depend on whether IPv4 multicast is > deployed or not. Basically, multicast was a bad idea from the > beginning (it works only when many people want to have access to the > same content AT THE SAME TIME, something which is now rare, except may > be for some sport events). Its absence does nothing to prevent people > from discussing on Web forums, mailing lists, or IRC channels. >=20 > I suggest to delete the text starting with "The second is the > selective..." >=20 I can live with this. And have adapted the text accordingly. https://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/commit/a2a0064e7edfd1221e18311d11825225= fee7aecb > Another issue (which is not easy to solve) is the mention of Namecoin > in 5.2.4.1. The current text is technically correct but may give the > impression that Namecoin has only strengths, not weaknesses, and that > we endorse its use. I know it is not the case but I do not like the > current text, not because of what it says, but because of what it > omits. It claims "there is no technical auditing for name ownership > [in the DNS]" which is true but forgets to add that, in Namecoin, > there is a public ledger of changes, but based only on the possession > of a cryptographic key. If your machine is infected with malware, you > may lose your Namecoin name and there is no audit or recourse for > that (the ledger will only show "legitimate" changes.) >=20 > So, mentioning alternative techniques is a good idea, to illustrate a > point, but we must be careful to add that it is not a fair comparison. >=20 Sure, can you offer some text for this? We can also go for listing a few short issues with Namecoin. Namecoin is only mentioned once, I do not think it reads like a recommendation, but happy with considering adding text. PRs here pls: https://github.com/nllz/IRTF-HRPC/blob/master/draft-research.md > Last important point, when rereading the evaluation of XMPP in 5.2.6, > I cannot help thinking it is technically correct but it may make > people consider that the XMPP authors were working for the NSA or the > FSB, trying very hard to break human rights in the protocol. May be > adding something that these evaluations are done on the basis of HR > influence, and that the engineers who built these protocols had many > other issues, and many trade-offs to consider (in the case of XMPP, > the use of the servers, which has a lot of consequences for HR, is > because user's machines are not reachable 100 % of the time.) >=20 Sure! We don't want to lambast XMPP, but simply show how hard it is. Would you like to offer text? I can also have a stab at it. Let me know what you think. > A few details (I can send pull requests if some of these points are > consensual): >=20 > 5.2.5.1 : HSTS and certificate pinning are mentioned as solutions > against TLS stripping but not DANE (RFC 6698). Why? >=20 Let's add DANE, stupid to have not mentioned it. PR ? > 5.2.11 : the end of the section is quite sudden. It regrets the lack > of a "de facto public space" but does not explain what it is (the > concept of "public space", where free speech and demonstrations are > possible, is not introduced anywhere).=20 We used to have much more text here, you can see it here: https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-tenoever-hrpc-research-03.txt= (page 37). I would be more than happy to bring (parts of) this text back:= DDoS although disruptive, and silencing at times, can also enable as protest and speech. Or as Sauter {{Sauter}} argues: =91though DDoS as a tactic is still relatively novel, it fits within a centuries- long tradition of breaking laws and disrupting business as usual to make a political point. These actions aren=92t simply disruption for disruption=92= s sake. Rather they serve to help the activist or dissenter to direct the attention of the public through the interpolation of difference into routine.=92 (30-31). An often heard argument against DDoS attacks is that= you cannot construe it as a means to exercise your right to freedom of speech, when the means used effectively impede the right of the party on the receiving end of the attack to exercise that same right. The problem with this line of argumentation is that it conveniently ignores the fact that online DDoS attacks are often one of the few effective ways for activists to gain the attention of the media, the government or other parties of interest. Simply putting up a website for a cause won=92t garner the same amount of attention as directly confronting the issue via the website of the individual or organization at the heart of the issue. The ability of activists to do so should be protected, especially considering the fact that as Sauter (2014:4) explains: =91Collectively, w= e have allowed the construction of an entire public sphere, the Internet, which by accidents of evolution and design, has none of the inherent free speech guarantees we have come to expect. Dissenting voices are pushed out of the paths of potential audiences, effectively removing them from the public discourse. There is nowhere online for an activist to stand with her friends and her sign. She might set up a dedicated blog=97which may or may not ever be read=97but it is much harder for her = to stand collectively with others against a corporate giant in the online space.=92 Although the Internet is often compared to public space, it is not. Rather the opposite. The Internet is almost entirely owned by private entities. And the IETF plays a crucial role in developing this privatized commercialized Internet. >=20 > 5.3.2.1.7 : "Yet, open standards are not explicitly defined > within the IETF" There is RFC 6852 but it is not a good reference > since it mentions IEEE, a very closed SDO (its standards are not even > freely available online). More a "governance circus" document than a > real definition of open standards. We've been struggling with this but did not want to re-invent the wheel. Happy to have guidance on where to look. I would have thought IETF would have a stronger position on this documented somewhere, or at least the IA= B. > =20 > Editorial : >=20 > 5.2.5.2 : "The lack of a secure transport layer over HTTP connections" > Isn't it _under_ and not _over_? HTTP is layered over TLS. >=20 Changed, thanks. > 5.2.9 : it should be updated with respect to the publication of RFC > 7725. For instance, replace "would be named" with "is named". >=20 >=20 Fixed, thanks! Best, Niels >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --x5E8JDuWJ3PDRQ0LXuccNWO176NoWsmHr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXmyzuAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjpnNsH/1o0Fl56NoIBLuIhFbbgGZQc 6jT7unwFDxYPYJ+WbB7J9/bWtBrksvL7I8aRD/rwq9UzeGG/FSPr5QNbp4Vt0yhq LdmMqSttN8rz4xZperSJA+ycmZItuYtAZ1Wjx1C3KUiIBLEFHNdF1Ajt+jdBBZLs N8tnNKTVH1TrUmzxjkv5G/YESH8OachDYQ+Od8zvV5/+SSOdU3rAfD/5QCozIGLR ZyHBMGEPYCbQquMaLp1NjGgjwLHOV3NABiIwk/D9YSp1twajnv/ueNz0ypWqThJx K0FRQqEcjfwGLI3u3Fy49B8RM0m7dG7BjPWjP2upv/DB/xE5cZK0DY3b4hbxrmo= =J1L7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --x5E8JDuWJ3PDRQ0LXuccNWO176NoWsmHr--