From nobody Sun Jun 10 04:46:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB49D130E3C for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 04:46:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.81 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.81 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WHILKWHCmQqa for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 04:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound1.eu.mailhop.org (outbound1.eu.mailhop.org [52.28.251.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4450C130E35 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 04:46:14 -0700 (PDT) X-MHO-RoutePath: amN1cnJhbg== X-MHO-User: decf4d53-6ca3-11e8-afd2-4ddcc8249dd4 X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 108.56.136.114 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from geode.istaff.org (unknown [108.56.136.114]) by outbound1.eu.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id decf4d53-6ca3-11e8-afd2-4ddcc8249dd4; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 11:46:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by geode.istaff.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A8452443A3B for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 07:46:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at istaff.org Received: from geode.istaff.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (geode.istaff.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rMRnOq8fh3Ff for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 07:46:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.200.111] (c-98-211-64-149.hsd1.de.comcast.net [98.211.64.149]) by geode.istaff.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 683DA2443A2A for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 07:46:09 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curran Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 07:46:07 -0400 References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> To: hrpc@irtf.org In-Reply-To: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-Id: <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 11:46:18 -0000 On 20 Mar 2018, at 4:37 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations = RG of the IRTF. >=20 > Title : Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol = Considerations > Author : Niels ten Oever > Filename : draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt Folks -=20 The draft states =E2=80=93 " According to these documents, some examples of human rights relevant for ICT systems are human dignity (Art. 1 UDHR), non-discrimination (Art. 2), rights to life, liberty and security (Art. 3), freedom of opinion and expression (Art. 19), freedom of assembly and association (Art. 20), rights to equal protection, legal remedy, fair trial, due process, presumed innocent (Art. 7-11), =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D It then goes on to assert =E2=80=93=20 " However, by carefully considering the answers to the following questions, document authors should be able to produce a comprehensive analysis that can serve as the basis for discussion on whether the protocol adequately takes specific human rights threats into = account.=E2=80=9D If the HT-rt is truly going to produce comprehensive analysis with = regard to potential protocol impacts on human rights, then every effort = should be made to expand the list of =E2=80=98specific human rights=E2=80=99= that are considered to include the full list of potential relevant = human rights. In particular, questions on assessing the potential = protocol impact on =E2=80=9Cright to legal remedy=E2=80=9D are absent = from the document, despite being specifically mentioned in the list of = relevant rights. It is clear that protocol design can readily impact = the ability to obtain legal remedy =E2=80=93 e.g. how various tradeoffs = between encryption versus attribution can limit the ability to determine = actors involved in an Internet-based attack on personal security. = Without questions to assess the potential impact to the right of legal = remedy, any =E2=80=9CHuman Rights=E2=80=9D reviews of Internet drafts = cannot be considered =E2=80=9Ccomprehensive=E2=80=9D in any normal sense = of the word.=20 Absent such an update to the human rights assessment guidelines, it = would be best if the HR-rt team be named "Specific Human Rights Review = Team" (SHR-rt) so as to avoid confusion about the restricted nature of = the reviews with respect to the range of human rights impacts.=20 Thanks! /John From nobody Sun Jun 10 17:13:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A945D130EDF for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:13:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9mnEIqGE2tJR for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic306-4.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic306-4.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.132.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FCA4130DD6 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:13:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1528676030; bh=s3gA2a1AwBlEr+Ji3kYSJwFjVV8m5S5N9RqC9uemUP0=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=M0ye2l20ob2zQcs0tgMh1uzKGmlGfVDSv5dtR6b/5/QFqk6PBscI6wsY2BaRa9UzhOWOEbR06vaqg09fiCuHugLTWahS++Y4pGTPd8iUZVouhsf0KhanZiW8i50R7alTBawhjfYrLpA77DNl8H7ODYRB/saG5p6ZOX8amDxYgwd4Mxn0CIb07vczo2RElWcByhRwysp8NK3Gk0tW4cqTpYX591I5h81MCGK35t8QpplOvEOsX7C61dyOQnwCgTa5aov647cRTlAsi7TXWjlO+NQEoMExf2iU43BI3OiXb7Um9AtfKandcB5SsDf7LeUgBGxDdkIMhDldErYjAXcSRA== X-YMail-OSG: O_h5VdQVM1mEc2_g8v2f5hYUKtaJ3SbqF0kTD2UaxQZtdVawpf1NaLEKg2_jiPD bLse6UFkJePmRx9AHfWfUFeDGLPSDOKbQFqZSJJ.q9A7TxcNBiiHWe5gNHlk.Q7dRf65o63Y3KLv Ohj9sM3muuMdttV.L6inGAOspmkTvnLhlTiQrf1LiCW4RaYks7zguSYB87V4RpPIoAZp00.wWe4b c9DbwSrq6d0n13j1PfZ1.bVsdNen_WfI6RD.tTSEZp0j9jr6Ep9Be7C7xio3zQYBw3WWrcXcCa6L nuHXxMISyMCjrXit1cu1jj8OhUEE17hkPkJvPEURSctAMh3Y7FN3bpwvOogv0QKmGd2c0D.InZVL wUHNsoJ8_F5oFPeG7SvleekPgvoc5o1VgFDzFvwC8JZSB9a7szEOBsbzQB5Yvjbb275pQFvb8rWo 25ZJ1eqS3toUS.BdXKJ1cyK4U4MNy7h7ye0AOsFKM16FmFdLHFzs6psbtQ3TuW7cu4LickO1snhz 8h3Li4F5qGUC95hEaO4SE1sIENAhSG62eQl_fhoEo8Q8GXwCR54E68PK_Aqdah4yc8yh91h7hs3x I9miHVmEAVSwJbElcCYssDdVvNQBl07F597WMnCetsmK5E0XFykWvf6OjyYe.ZWuJUrxvSp_E4Z3 nGR1OVRKksHxXqOrdwAutHsiEnGCRLj02.k5v7tR.qCD6il3kwd.Ugty14R_t0U34eDUegeX4stF eC77UCQ.iI6SaPe4jNvnJ3rnXi1QSV0CT9xOoAeRbGgzNnH57pvhfqeb_QNGIFzSay4UKirBnrAt T5kT0IiVEjAkVs8TjVS7XMVj9.2yAr60.bLNujGC7hUGuWvXjdjmOFtvmyDWOiTW9l1Pt31Al4Tk JM64npK.QLAC47SKDy15quvnfHAzWMobN.7C8PLdT6mRwlqDGAJJc_xEGo3xuAfXslIfZXR.JCvp uUzDqVbCYhin9oPiGVwxYyx6IA8LH5_Hh6hE0ZiCYEfbtmjz34xH7oleawQNlZ7Hpk_2jfsBMJJY n Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 00:13:50 +0000 Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 00:13:45 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Perkins To: hrpc@irtf.org, John Curran Message-ID: <1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3259027_1456582415.1528676025900" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.11950 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 00:13:54 -0000 ------=_Part_3259027_1456582415.1528676025900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John I could not more strongly disagree with your interpretation of 'human right= s' (besides your confusion between encryption and anonymity). 1. To be clear, human rights do not apply to=C2=A0 corporations (corporate = bodies). 2. The 'right' to legal remedy is not a Human Right but a mechanism to aid = in the enforcement in the other rights, which is why it is in Article 2 (Hu= man Rights are spelt out in Articles 6-27). 3. In the main, Human Rights are state obligations to refrain from interfer= ence with individual rights (negative rights) and only secondarily an oblig= ation to prevent citizens from such interference (positive right). 4. All rights are subject to the test of 'proportionality' (excepting certa= in rights described in Article 2, which are absolute). This means that one = right cannot be enforced to the annihilation of another. 5. Given the importance of encryption and anonymity to freedom of expressio= n and right to privacy, various organisations (eg. Article 19 ) and the Special Rapporteur on the promotion and protection of= the right to freedom of opinion and expression have emphasise= d that the use of encryption and anonymity are essential in the protection = of fundamental rights. 6. Even conceding your point about the ability for legal redress for infrin= gement against Human Rights (and NOT for other purposes), this would apply = only to anonymity and not encryption. Mark P. On Sunday, June 10, 2018, 10:46:26 PM GMT+11, John Curran wrote: =20 =20 On 20 Mar 2018, at 4:37 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations RG = of the IRTF. >=20 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Guid= elines for Human Rights Protocol Considerations >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Nie= ls ten Oever > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-irtf-hrpc-= guidelines-00.txt Folks -=20 The draft states =E2=80=93 " According to these documents, some examples of human rights relevant =C2=A0 for ICT systems are human dignity (Art. 1 UDHR), non-discrimination =C2=A0 (Art. 2), rights to life, liberty and security (Art. 3), freedom of =C2=A0 opinion and expression (Art. 19), freedom of assembly and associatio= n =C2=A0 (Art. 20), rights to equal protection, legal remedy, fair trial, due =C2=A0 process, presumed innocent (Art. 7-11), =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D It then goes on to assert =E2=80=93=20 " However, by carefully considering the answers to the following =C2=A0 questions, document authors should be able to produce a comprehensiv= e =C2=A0 analysis that can serve as the basis for discussion on whether the =C2=A0 protocol adequately takes specific human rights threats into account= .=E2=80=9D If the HT-rt is truly going to produce comprehensive analysis with regard t= o potential protocol impacts on human rights, then every effort should be m= ade to expand the list of =E2=80=98specific human rights=E2=80=99 that are = considered to include the full list of potential relevant human rights.=C2= =A0 In particular, questions on assessing the potential protocol impact on = =E2=80=9Cright to legal remedy=E2=80=9D are absent from the document, despi= te being specifically mentioned in the list of relevant rights.=C2=A0 It is= clear that protocol design can readily impact the ability to obtain legal = remedy =E2=80=93 e.g. how various tradeoffs between encryption versus attri= bution can limit the ability to determine actors involved in an Internet-ba= sed attack on personal security.=C2=A0 Without questions to assess the pote= ntial impact to the right of legal remedy, any =E2=80=9CHuman Rights=E2=80= =9D reviews of Internet drafts cannot be considered =E2=80=9Ccomprehensive= =E2=80=9D in any normal sense of the word.=20 Absent such an update to the human rights assessment guidelines, it would b= e best if the HR-rt team be named "Specific Human Rights Review Team" (SHR-= rt) so as to avoid confusion about the restricted nature of the reviews wit= h respect to the range of human rights impacts.=20 Thanks! /John _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_3259027_1456582415.1528676025900 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John

I could not more strongly disagree with your= interpretation of 'human rights' (besides your confusion between encryptio= n and anonymity).

1. To be clear, human rights do not apply to = corporations (corporate bodies).

2. The 'right' to legal remedy is = not a Human Right but a mechanism to aid in the enforcement in the other ri= ghts, which is why it is in Article 2 (Human Rights are spelt out in Articl= es 6-27).

3. In the main, Human Rights are state obligations to refr= ain from interference with individual rights (negative rights) and only sec= ondarily an obligation to prevent citizens from such interference (positive= right).

4. All rights are subject to the test of 'proportionality' = (excepting certain rights described in Article 2, which are absolute). This= means that one right cannot be enforced to the annihilation of another.
5. Given the importance of encryption and anonymity to freedom of expr= ession and right to privacy, various organisations (eg. Article 19 <http= s://www.article19.org/resources/un-expert-launches-robust-defence-online-an= onymity-encryption/>) and the Special Rapporteur on the promotion and pr= otection of the right to freedom of opinion and expression <www.ohchr.or= g/EN/HRBodies/HRC/RegularSessions/Session29/Documents/A.HRC.29.32_AEV.doc&g= t; have emphasised that the use of encryption and anonymity are essential i= n the protection of fundamental rights.

6. Even conceding your point= about the ability for legal redress for infringement against Human Rights = (and NOT for other purposes), this would apply only to anonymity and not en= cryption.

Mark P.

=20
=20
On Sunday, June 10, 2018, 10:46:26 PM GMT+11, John Curr= an <jcurran@istaff.org> wrote:


On 20 Mar 2018, at 4:37 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
&= gt;
>
> A New Internet-Draft is= available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
= > This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations = RG of the IRTF.
>
>   =     Title          : Guidelines for Hu= man Rights Protocol Considerations
>    &nbs= p;   Author          : Niels ten Oever
>     Filename        : d= raft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt

Folks= -

The <draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines= -00.txt> draft states =E2=80=93

" A= ccording to these documents, some examples of human rights relevant
  for ICT systems are human dignity (Art. 1 UDHR), non-dis= crimination
  (Art. 2), rights to life, liberty and= security (Art. 3), freedom of
  opinion and expres= sion (Art. 19), freedom of assembly and association
 = ; (Art. 20), rights to equal protection, legal remedy, fair trial, due
  process, presumed innocent (Art. 7-11), =E2=80=A6=E2= =80=9D

It then goes on to assert =E2= =80=93

" However, by carefully consid= ering the answers to the following
  questions, doc= ument authors should be able to produce a comprehensive
&= nbsp; analysis that can serve as the basis for discussion on whether the  protocol adequately takes specific human rights th= reats into account.=E2=80=9D

If the HT= -rt is truly going to produce comprehensive analysis with regard to potenti= al protocol impacts on human rights, then every effort should be made to ex= pand the list of =E2=80=98specific human rights=E2=80=99 that are considere= d to include the full list of potential relevant human rights.  In pa= rticular, questions on assessing the potential protocol impact on =E2=80=9C= right to legal remedy=E2=80=9D are absent from the document, despite being = specifically mentioned in the list of relevant rights.  It is clear th= at protocol design can readily impact the ability to obtain legal remedy = =E2=80=93 e.g. how various tradeoffs between encryption versus attribution = can limit the ability to determine actors involved in an Internet-based att= ack on personal security.  Without questions to assess the potential = impact to the right of legal remedy, any =E2=80=9CHuman Rights=E2=80=9D rev= iews of Internet drafts cannot be considered =E2=80=9Ccomprehensive=E2=80= =9D in any normal sense of the word.

= Absent such an update to the human rights assessment guidelines, it would b= e best if the HR-rt team be named "Specific Human Rights Review Team" (SHR-= rt) so as to avoid confusion about the restricted nature of the reviews wit= h respect to the range of human rights impacts.

Thanks!
/John



__= _____________________________________________
hrpc mailin= g list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
------=_Part_3259027_1456582415.1528676025900-- From nobody Sun Jun 10 20:56:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F41130DE7 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 20:56:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id niKYTTZVBjZa for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 20:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound1.eu.mailhop.org (outbound1.eu.mailhop.org [52.28.251.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42AA7130DE4 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 20:56:47 -0700 (PDT) X-MHO-RoutePath: amN1cnJhbg== X-MHO-User: 73e32d8b-6d2b-11e8-afd2-4ddcc8249dd4 X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 108.56.136.114 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from geode.istaff.org (unknown [108.56.136.114]) by outbound1.eu.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 73e32d8b-6d2b-11e8-afd2-4ddcc8249dd4; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 03:56:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by geode.istaff.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE457244F99C; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 23:56:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at istaff.org Received: from geode.istaff.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (geode.istaff.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0GvJyAOdUnIe; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 23:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fullerite.fios-router.home (fullerite.fios-router.home [192.168.100.151]) by geode.istaff.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9B2D2244F983; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 23:56:41 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curran Message-Id: <8F30507E-CC8E-4617-A029-EC7EC13B9D9A@istaff.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1DC3530C-6C02-4E2A-AF92-1FB78AA1A0C4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 23:56:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org To: Mark Perkins References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> <1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 03:56:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1DC3530C-6C02-4E2A-AF92-1FB78AA1A0C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 10 Jun 2018, at 8:13 PM, Mark Perkins wrote: > ... > 2. The 'right' to legal remedy is not a Human Right but a mechanism to = aid in the enforcement in the other rights, which is why it is in = Article 2 (Human Rights are spelt out in Articles 6-27). Mark -=20 The right to effective remedy is in Article 8 of the UN Universal = Declaration of Human Rights > "Article 8. Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent = national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him = by the constitution or by law.=E2=80=9D Given language that begins =E2=80=9CEveryone has the right=E2=80=9D = would plainly suggest that 'effective remedy' is indeed a "Human = Right=E2=80=9D,=20 > 6. Even conceding your point about the ability for legal redress for = infringement against Human Rights (and NOT for other purposes), this = would apply only to anonymity and not encryption. I do not have a specific position regarding the appropriate balancing = (i.e. proportionality test) that should be provided to the right of = effective remedy versus other human rights, but note that an analysis of = impacts to human rights from a given protocol that based on a selected = subset of rights should not be considered =E2=80=9Ccomprehensive=E2=80=9D,= and hence the work of an HR-rt team assessing such impacts is likely to = be misunderstood in a similar manner of not otherwise specifically = called out.=20 Thanks, /John=20 --Apple-Mail=_1DC3530C-6C02-4E2A-AF92-1FB78AA1A0C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = 10 Jun 2018, at 8:13 PM, Mark Perkins <marknoumea@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
2. The 'right' to legal remedy is not a = Human Right but a mechanism to aid in the enforcement in the other = rights, which is why it is in Article 2 (Human Rights are spelt out in = Articles 6-27).

Mark - 

The= right to effective remedy is in Article 8 of the UN Universal = Declaration of Human Rights

"Article 8.
 = Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the = competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights = granted him by the constitution or by law.=E2=80=9D

Given language that begins =E2=80=9CEveryone has = the right=E2=80=9D would plainly suggest that 'effective remedy' is = indeed a "Human Right=E2=80=9D, 

6. Even conceding your point about the = ability for legal redress for infringement against Human Rights (and NOT = for other purposes), this would apply only to anonymity and not = encryption.

I do not have a specific position regarding the = appropriate balancing (i.e. proportionality test) that should be = provided to the right of effective remedy versus other human rights, but = note that an analysis of impacts to human rights from a given protocol = that based on a selected subset of rights should not be considered = =E2=80=9Ccomprehensive=E2=80=9D, and hence the work of an HR-rt team = assessing such impacts is likely to be misunderstood in a similar manner = of not otherwise specifically called out. 

Thanks,
/John 


= --Apple-Mail=_1DC3530C-6C02-4E2A-AF92-1FB78AA1A0C4-- From nobody Sun Jun 10 22:01:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 045E5130EE2 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 22:01:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DzXROGNu1s3N for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 22:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic317-29.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic317-29.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.129.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 828C3130DF5 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 22:01:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1528693294; bh=Jt4A2kpi6DSCaTS7llaN5hgkiPMJZNHBnGelHi1k4j0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=W0Cq5B+CJUWos3m8reyc7W0Ak/CG6ZlodpBuff5E8pXkSH5jEGPB35AZsHEbMsbdiRdhwfeY+WDLV7pUbBomHKgjchTE5bdEcevYl1+wHKrj8kuaU5FxQNuXuLHuerNinNO3aGNDqBUp4zmx51NNSLB91WfUVz9zdIXr8bSnyZ8yRrLBfK7K8TrHV5twUjuqnjKMxNjQvrlrOC6W6HtFadWTvcloUV1yPzS+M1Kmf0lJifRYbCH4FLvCV3RCuBDQbtPGGOJrqj0i8D4188baDI4mrGl9vxzow9zmDq25NVGN0dUvl6XalKbqy9vrPVn4Fjv1UIbGJ9mdj3TYYjGIFA== X-YMail-OSG: 8ZeUkDgVM1nHpbjUbR10uH_JG6CzlWbtZeJ3DURhToPM7wYM5c6zJ5W6MPlJFjH 3IYjxVu5m8aYQESbgK79FFM_cdXS721X9LSkUo9IlcwZxDPVJJfIIa_86d0ol5oAxtt9T9Al1wCa Njz45kFQQhiKYsuXKkPNiVjqM8d5ES51d9E_ZOv_5IFEz_BFyP9jU8KvUs16jJEwkoPoGU_oXOMD I71_hPsNHWS0mN4AirynIhhRczWeSksWoOm274rMqxqnI4gevaDxWpO1mzKLGD.FRq._y2cwMUVg e9iw6koiknSBSSlF4jSwbtJO2EYQZOw1GbVF1L8F2GrBcPLvRjQ7MDjXpM5KRxjqSGMVyt3AIozR jxvyQ10iAAf.QGmww.q.V4SUrGaa0Kha8jWPsSvD7uHiTlwN_uWACqkSkKnnvx_zQvpuNjkorDs1 zmgmqsuPaZJD6l_otQ2kD3hq7yjr0rZ7kMlYUaEQw5B.z8zkSAiQaQXMem36m2poA3p7ivZBNSmh ubAL7D1nYQLls.bppw2vioAdhwq1hd123IMOlOF_IjqsO9J7TeB8OYi9gQE62TgxSNU3DzfAb98F n0nZY.sBetKq0HYc_.g5AeIiHsnoDaqF.cFSUZqZpu0ipgPg9uPXhp_YOae8wAiYfum.MLRWXHEK DsXvGuo96O9TGyIt1dQWnxpxaT5dPTfXwql7I5bdtJtntbHXfzkUbclkH4GeQbxq0xaeyAkxZKQV ThjefIXUWAzZXVVIS6pUvu2OvNP6dhHqadbbSsh0yH4zSEXP.ORtaMCH38ZsidoV4sQP5uKaUb6Y LxYidJ8Q.1xZgJW1trgMd0tXxjLE4f5o_TUIzVDxIlHmafuLSENDbnN88eJ1UR5lIUB2M8NNDd2P tP8NHy2S0V.RW3oOWERcgwmU_viXkaUqJKt0v Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic317.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 05:01:34 +0000 Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 05:01:33 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Perkins To: John Curran Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <8F30507E-CC8E-4617-A029-EC7EC13B9D9A@istaff.org> References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> <1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> <8F30507E-CC8E-4617-A029-EC7EC13B9D9A@istaff.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3270587_122578796.1528693293660" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.11950 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 05:01:38 -0000 ------=_Part_3270587_122578796.1528693293660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John You are correct regarding the Universal Declaration, which is only 'declara= tory'. I was referring to the signed treaty - the International Covenant on= Civil and Political Rights - and its enforcement mechanisms. You quote my point 6 (encryption vs anonymity), but I assume from your foll= owing comment you meant to quote my point 4 regarding proportionality. I do have a specific position regarding the proportionality test, as do Art= icle 19 and the Special Rapporteur. Given the possible misunderstanding tha= t you have pointed out, I would suggest that the 'Guidelines for Human Righ= ts Protocol Considerations' should specifically cite the Special Rapporteur= when refering to encryption/anonymity. Regards Mark P. On Monday, June 11, 2018, 2:56:59 PM GMT+11, John Curran wrote: =20 =20 On 10 Jun 2018, at 8:13 PM, Mark Perkins wrote: ... 2. The 'right' to legal remedy is not a Human Right but a mechanism to aid = in the enforcement in the other rights, which is why it is in Article 2 (Hu= man Rights are spelt out in Articles 6-27). Mark -=C2=A0 The right to effective remedy is in Article 8 of the UN=C2=A0Universal Decl= aration of Human Rights "Article 8. =C2=A0 Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent natio= nal tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the = constitution=C2=A0or by law.=E2=80=9D Given language that begins =E2=80=9CEveryone has the right=E2=80=9D would p= lainly suggest that 'effective remedy' is indeed a "Human Right=E2=80=9D,= =C2=A0 6. Even conceding your point about the ability for legal redress for infrin= gement against Human Rights (and NOT for other purposes), this would apply = only to anonymity and not encryption. I do not have a specific position regarding the appropriate balancing (i.e.= proportionality test) that should be provided to the right of effective re= medy versus other human rights, but note that an analysis of impacts to hum= an rights from a given protocol that based on a selected subset of rights s= hould not be considered =E2=80=9Ccomprehensive=E2=80=9D, and hence the work= of an HR-rt team assessing such impacts is likely to be misunderstood in a= similar manner of not otherwise specifically called out.=C2=A0 Thanks,/John=C2=A0 _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_3270587_122578796.1528693293660 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi John

You are correct regarding the Universal D= eclaration, which is only 'declaratory'. I was referring to the signed trea= ty - the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - and its enf= orcement mechanisms.

You quote my point 6 (encryption vs anonymity),= but I assume from your following comment you meant to quote my point 4 reg= arding proportionality.

I do have a specific position regarding the = proportionality test, as do Article 19 and the Special Rapporteur. Given th= e possible misunderstanding that you have pointed out, I would suggest that= the 'Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol Considerations' should specifica= lly cite the Special Rapporteur when refering to encryption/anonymity.
<= br>Regards
Mark P.



=20
=20
On Monday, June 11, 2018, 2:56:59 PM GMT+11, John Curra= n <jcurran@istaff.org> wrote:


On 10 Jun 2018, at 8:13= PM, Mark Perkins <marknoumea@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
2. The 'right' to legal remedy is not a Human Right= but a mechanism to aid in the enforcement in the other rights, which is wh= y it is in Article 2 (Human Rights are spelt out in Articles 6-27).

Mark -=  

The = right to effective remedy is in Article 8 of the UN Universal Declarat= ion of Human Rights

=09"Article 8.
 =09Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national= tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the con= stitution or by law.=E2=80=9D

Given language that begins =E2=80=9CEveryone has th= e right=E2=80=9D would plainly suggest that 'effective remedy' is indeed a = "Human Right=E2=80=9D, 

6. Even conceding your point about the abili= ty for legal redress for infringement against Human Rights (and NOT for oth= er purposes), this would apply only to anonymity and not encryption.=

I do not have a specific position regarding the appro= priate balancing (i.e. proportionality test) that should be provided to the= right of effective remedy versus other human rights, but note that an anal= ysis of impacts to human rights from a given protocol that based on a selec= ted subset of rights should not be considered =E2=80=9Ccomprehensive=E2=80= =9D, and hence the work of an HR-rt team assessing such impacts is likely t= o be misunderstood in a similar manner of not otherwise specifically called= out. 

T= hanks,
/John 


__________________= _____________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://w= ww.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
------=_Part_3270587_122578796.1528693293660-- From nobody Sun Jun 10 22:20:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072D3130EE2 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 22:20:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PBiyyWr8nGX7 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 22:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pmta2.delivery5.ore.mailhop.org (pmta2.delivery5.ore.mailhop.org [54.186.218.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1A1B12F1AC for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2018 22:20:49 -0700 (PDT) X-MHO-RoutePath: amN1cnJhbg== X-MHO-User: 326a9daf-6d37-11e8-b829-b3adae557cda X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 108.56.136.114 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from [192.168.100.179] (unknown [108.56.136.114]) by outbound2.ore.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 326a9daf-6d37-11e8-b829-b3adae557cda; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 05:20:48 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-B48C3B72-E5B3-4684-A583-03F88F5AF9CB Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: John Curran X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15F79) In-Reply-To: <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 01:20:46 -0400 Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> <1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> <8F30507E-CC8E-4617-A029-EC7EC13B9D9A@istaff.org> <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> To: Mark Perkins Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 05:20:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail-B48C3B72-E5B3-4684-A583-03F88F5AF9CB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark - Are you suggestion that the IETF conduct reviews of human rights impacts for= protocols but that such =E2=80=9Ccomprehensive=E2=80=9D assessments do not n= eed to consider the human right of effective remedy? I am fine if the reviews exclude the human right to effective remedy, but th= en believe that care must be taken to make sure such reviews are not represe= nted as =E2=80=9Ccomprehensive=E2=80=9D. Alternatively, assessment of impac= ts to the right to effective remedy could be included - either outcome is re= asonable so long as it avoids inadvertent misrepresentation.=20 Thanks! /John > On Jun 11, 2018, at 1:01 AM, Mark Perkins wrote: >=20 > Hi John >=20 > You are correct regarding the Universal Declaration, which is only 'declar= atory'. I was referring to the signed treaty - the International Covenant on= Civil and Political Rights - and its enforcement mechanisms. >=20 > You quote my point 6 (encryption vs anonymity), but I assume from your fol= lowing comment you meant to quote my point 4 regarding proportionality. >=20 > I do have a specific position regarding the proportionality test, as do Ar= ticle 19 and the Special Rapporteur. Given the possible misunderstanding tha= t you have pointed out, I would suggest that the 'Guidelines for Human Right= s Protocol Considerations' should specifically cite the Special Rapporteur w= hen refering to encryption/anonymity. >=20 > Regards > Mark P. >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Monday, June 11, 2018, 2:56:59 PM GMT+11, John Curran wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 10 Jun 2018, at 8:13 PM, Mark Perkins wrote: >> ... >> 2. The 'right' to legal remedy is not a Human Right but a mechanism to ai= d in the enforcement in the other rights, which is why it is in Article 2 (H= uman Rights are spelt out in Articles 6-27). >=20 > Mark -=20 >=20 > The right to effective remedy is in Article 8 of the UN Universal Declarat= ion of Human Rights > >=20 > "Article 8. > Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent nati= onal tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the c= onstitution or by law.=E2=80=9D >=20 > Given language that begins =E2=80=9CEveryone has the right=E2=80=9D would p= lainly suggest that 'effective remedy' is indeed a "Human Right=E2=80=9D,=20= >=20 >> 6. Even conceding your point about the ability for legal redress for infr= ingement against Human Rights (and NOT for other purposes), this would apply= only to anonymity and not encryption. >=20 > I do not have a specific position regarding the appropriate balancing (i.e= . proportionality test) that should be provided to the right of effective re= medy versus other human rights, but note that an analysis of impacts to huma= n rights from a given protocol that based on a selected subset of rights sho= uld not be considered =E2=80=9Ccomprehensive=E2=80=9D, and hence the work of= an HR-rt team assessing such impacts is likely to be misunderstood in a sim= ilar manner of not otherwise specifically called out.=20 >=20 > Thanks, > /John=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --Apple-Mail-B48C3B72-E5B3-4684-A583-03F88F5AF9CB Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark -

Are you suggestio= n that the IETF conduct reviews of human rights impacts for protocols but th= at such =E2=80=9Ccomprehensive=E2=80=9D assessments do not need to consider t= he human right of effective remedy?

I am fine if th= e reviews exclude the human right to effective remedy, but then believe that= care must be taken to make sure such reviews are not represented as =E2=80=9C= comprehensive=E2=80=9D.  Alternatively, assessment of impacts to the ri= ght to effective remedy could be included - either outcome is reasonable so l= ong as it avoids inadvertent misrepresentation. 

Thanks!
/John

On Jun 11, 2= 018, at 1:01 AM, Mark Perkins <ma= rknoumea@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi John

You are correct regarding the Universal De= claration, which is only 'declaratory'. I was referring to the signed treaty= - the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - and its enforc= ement mechanisms.

You quote my point 6 (encryption vs anonymity), but= I assume from your following comment you meant to quote my point 4 regardin= g proportionality.

I do have a specific position regarding the propor= tionality test, as do Article 19 and the Special Rapporteur. Given the possi= ble misunderstanding that you have pointed out, I would suggest that the 'Gu= idelines for Human Rights Protocol Considerations' should specifically cite t= he Special Rapporteur when refering to encryption/anonymity.

Regards<= br>Mark P.



=20
=20
On Monday, June 11, 2018, 2:56:59 PM GMT+11, John Curran= <jcurran@istaff.org> wrote:=


On 10 Jun 2018, at 8:13 P= M, Mark Perkins <marknoumea@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
2. The 'right' to legal remedy is not a Human Right but a mechanis= m to aid in the enforcement in the other rights, which is why it is in Artic= le 2 (Human Rights are spelt out in Articles 6-27).
Mark - 
The right to effective r= emedy is in Article 8 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights
"Article 8.<= br class=3D"yiv6241858421" clear=3D"none">  Everyone has the rig= ht to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts viola= ting the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.=E2= =80=9D

Given= language that begins =E2=80=9CEveryone has the right=E2=80=9D would plainly= suggest that 'effective remedy' is indeed a "Human Right=E2=80=9D, 

6. Even c= onceding your point about the ability for legal redress for infringement aga= inst Human Rights (and NOT for other purposes), this would apply only to ano= nymity and not encryption.
=
I do not have a specif= ic position regarding the appropriate balancing (i.e. proportionality test) t= hat should be provided to the right of effective remedy versus other human r= ights, but note that an analysis of impacts to human rights from a given pro= tocol that based on a selected subset of rights should not be considered =E2= =80=9Ccomprehensive=E2=80=9D, and hence the work of an HR-rt team assessing s= uch impacts is likely to be misunderstood in a similar manner of not otherwi= se specifically called out. 

Thanks,
/John 


__= _____________________________________________
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https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
= --Apple-Mail-B48C3B72-E5B3-4684-A583-03F88F5AF9CB-- From nobody Mon Jun 11 02:01:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567B4130DEF for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 02:01:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sbO6JTQ0ve8n for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 02:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4ABE130DCB for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dgyDG4TbUCUcXPSf5GnQvVsjlj6i0aGs4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 09:01:29 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --dgyDG4TbUCUcXPSf5GnQvVsjlj6i0aGs4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="OgBBpFooXFnaYDbApX0FMgEJ21fD5ezTJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: John Curran , hrpc@irtf.org, marknoumea=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org Message-ID: <1aa0700b-f0d8-469b-1aa7-a8036ceed3d3@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> In-Reply-To: <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> --OgBBpFooXFnaYDbApX0FMgEJ21fD5ezTJ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------01E51B5DF284E2D947E918B9" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------01E51B5DF284E2D947E918B9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I don't have a position on the UDHR aspects of the discussion but I have a comment on terminology and I'm not clear what's behind the text below... On 10/06/18 12:46, John Curran wrote: > It is clear that protocol design can readily impact the ability to > obtain legal remedy =E2=80=93 e.g. how various tradeoffs between encryp= tion > versus attribution can limit the ability to determine actors involved > in an Internet-based attack on personal security. I think the above mixes too many things together to be any kind of example that might be useful in the discussion. John, it's not clear to me if you're bemoaning: - folks' ability to use confidentiality mechanisms - use of combinations of standard and non-standard protocols in ways that didn't first ask for permission from someone (and thus are hard to disentangle) - the fact that it is hard to correlate source addresses with entities one might sue or complain about to your chosen local authorities - or something else But regardless of what is or is not a human right, I think that reviews considering human rights in this context clearly also need to consider the ability to run networks that are constantly under attack, so I think most of this is moot really. On terminology: use of the term "anonymity" here is not useful either. (I think Mark is the person who did that first in this thread, sorry if I got that wrong.) I find it really hard to know when or if someone using that term understands the tremendous difficulties in attempting to be really anonymous. And I have seen people mistakenly use that term when they really just meant use of ciphertext instead of plaintext. So it'd be better to not use that term at all in these discussion I think. (It's much easier to talk accurately about use of pseudonyms anyway:-) Cheers, S. --------------01E51B5DF284E2D947E918B9 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t 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<1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> <8F30507E-CC8E-4617-A029-EC7EC13B9D9A@istaff.org> <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 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06:33:52 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HMeVtheHrf3YScjXuGgeVJheyJqBTYOEm" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 10:33:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --HMeVtheHrf3YScjXuGgeVJheyJqBTYOEm Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="yD0i8262PlgJ7LTd0wD6KiAzWjfctZQSh"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Perkins , John Curran Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <5dafa04f-b07e-2bc8-fbdd-ac8895bad0d1@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> <1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> <8F30507E-CC8E-4617-A029-EC7EC13B9D9A@istaff.org> <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> --yD0i8262PlgJ7LTd0wD6KiAzWjfctZQSh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------474F59129D4BE6CD6629E84D" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------474F59129D4BE6CD6629E84D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11.06.18 01:01, Mark Perkins wrote: > Hi John > > You are correct regarding the Universal Declaration, which is only > 'declaratory'. I was referring to the signed treaty - the > International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - and its > enforcement mechanisms. This draft itself uses the UDHR as a basis.=C2=A0 John's point is that th= ere is a tension between these various rights.=C2=A0 Similarly, Section 3.2.4= references BCP72 and talks about a "Right to security", but we haven't had a real discussion of what that means. One other comment: The document really needs a scrub on terminology.=C2=A0 For instance, Sec= tion 3.2.13 talks about reliability and degradation, when the example really discusses downgrade attacks.=C2=A0 The second example (TCP ACKs) is not w= ell connected to the point. Eliot --------------474F59129D4BE6CD6629E84D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On 11.06.18 01:01, Mark Perkins wrote:=
Hi John

You are correct regarding the Universal Declaration, which is only 'declaratory'. I was referring to the signed treaty - the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - and its enforcement mechanisms.

This draft itself uses the UDHR as a basis.=C2=A0 John's point is tha= t there is a tension between these various rights.=C2=A0 Similarly, Sec= tion 3.2.4 references BCP72 and talks about a "Right to security", but we haven't had a real discussion of what that means.

One other comment:

The document really needs a scrub on terminology.=C2=A0 For instance,= Section 3.2.13 talks about reliability and degradation, when the example really discusses downgrade attacks.=C2=A0 The second example = (TCP ACKs) is not well connected to the point.

Eliot
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Wed, 13 Jun 2018 00:19:23 +0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 00:19:20 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Perkins To: Mark Perkins , John Curran , Eliot Lear Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <1194607031.4537843.1528849160355@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5dafa04f-b07e-2bc8-fbdd-ac8895bad0d1@cisco.com> References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> <1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> <8F30507E-CC8E-4617-A029-EC7EC13B9D9A@istaff.org> <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> <5dafa04f-b07e-2bc8-fbdd-ac8895bad0d1@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4537842_703803355.1528849160353" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.11950 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 00:19:30 -0000 ------=_Part_4537842_703803355.1528849160353 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen On terminology, it was me who first used the term "anonymity' in this discu= ssion. It was a logical leap (without explanation) from Johns connecting at= tribution to legal redress. Pseudonymity has not much impact on legal redre= ss unless it can be connected to a real human; if it cannot be so connected= , the human remain anonymous... I agree with your points regarding clarity, something the "Anonymity, Human= Rights and Internet Protocols" draft deals with. However, I disagree with your view that the "need to consider the ability to run networks that are constantly under attack" renders this = moot. Attribution (in terms of legal redress) is NOT necessary for this pur= pose... Eliot The draft does not use the UDHR as a basis. It refers to the UDHR, the ICCP= R and other treaties, but only cites examples from the UDHR. These examples= are all found in the ICCPR excepting: 'appropriate social and international order', which is the purpose of the treaties; 'participation in cultural life...' which is dealt with in another treaty -= the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. I totally agree that there is a tension between these various rights, somet= hing recognised by the various enforcement & monitoring bodies of the treat= ies. This why I prefer to refer to the treaties rather than the UDHR, it en= ables reference to General Comments and agreed analyses of the treaties and= the tensions between the rights contained in them, something the UDHR does= not. Perhaps we should look at whether our examples should come from the Treatie= s rather than the UDHR. The majority of countries are signatories to the IC= CPR and other relevant treaties, while the UDHR is only by default due to c= ountries UN membership. As to 'a scrub on terminology', I totally agree; have attempted to aid in p= roof-reading and polishing myself, but is clearly not finished. In fact, your reference to 3.2.4 and Right to Security illustrates this poi= nt as it seems to conflate / confuse network security with the 'Right to se= curity' with not explanation... Regards Mark P. On Monday, June 11, 2018, 9:34:06 PM GMT+11, Eliot Lear wrote: =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 On 11.06.18 01:01, Mark Perkins wrote: =20 =20 Hi John =20 You are correct regarding the Universal Declaration, which is only 'declar= atory'. I was referring to the signed treaty - the International Covenant o= n Civil and Political Rights - and its enforcement mechanisms. =20 This draft itself uses the UDHR as a basis.=C2=A0 John's point is that the= re is a tension between these various rights.=C2=A0 Similarly, Section 3.2.= 4 references BCP72 and talks about a "Right to security", but we haven't ha= d a real discussion of what that means. =20 One other comment: =20 The document really needs a scrub on terminology.=C2=A0 For instance, Sect= ion 3.2.13 talks about reliability and degradation, when the example really= discusses downgrade attacks.=C2=A0 The second example (TCP ACKs) is not we= ll connected to the point. =20 Eliot _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_4537842_703803355.1528849160353 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stephen

On terminology, it was me who first used = the term "anonymity' in this discussion. It was a logical leap (without exp= lanation) from Johns connecting attribution to legal redress. Pseudonymity = has not much impact on legal redress unless it can be connected to a real h= uman; if it cannot be so connected, the human remain anonymous...

I = agree with your points regarding clarity, something the "Anonymity, Human R= ights and Internet Protocols" draft deals with.

However, I disagree = with your view that the "need to consider
the ability to run networks th= at are constantly under attack" renders this moot. Attribution (in terms of= legal redress) is NOT necessary for this purpose...

Eliot

Th= e draft does not use the UDHR as a basis. It refers to the UDHR, the ICCPR = and other treaties, but only cites examples from the UDHR. These examples a= re all found in the ICCPR excepting:

'appropriate social and
inte= rnational order', which is the purpose of the treaties;

'participati= on in cultural life...' which is dealt with in another treaty - the Interna= tional Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

I totally a= gree that there is a tension between these various rights, something recogn= ised by the various enforcement & monitoring bodies of the treaties. Th= is why I prefer to refer to the treaties rather than the UDHR, it enables r= eference to General Comments and agreed analyses of the treaties and the te= nsions between the rights contained in them, something the UDHR does not.
Perhaps we should look at whether our examples should come from the T= reaties rather than the UDHR. The majority of countries are signatories to = the ICCPR and other relevant treaties, while the UDHR is only by default du= e to countries UN membership.

As to 'a scrub on terminology', I tota= lly agree; have attempted to aid in proof-reading and polishing myself, but= is clearly not finished.

In fact, your reference to 3.2.4 and Right= to Security illustrates this point as it seems to conflate / confuse netwo= rk security with the 'Right to security' with not explanation...

Reg= ards
Mark P.



=20
=20
On Monday, June 11, 2018, 9:34:06 PM GMT+11, Eliot Lear= <lear=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:




On 11.06.18 01:01, Mark Perki= ns wrote:
Hi John

You are correct regarding the Universal Declaration, which is only 'declaratory'. I was referring to the signed treaty - the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - and its enforcement mechanisms.

=20
This draft itself uses the UDHR as a basis.  John's point is that there is a tension between these various rights.  Similarly, Secti= on 3.2.4 references BCP72 and talks about a "Right to security", but we haven't had a real discussion of what that means.

One other comment:

The document really needs a scrub on terminology.  For instance, Section 3.2.13 talks about reliability and degradation, when the example really discusses downgrade attacks.  The second example (T= CP ACKs) is not well connected to the point.

Eliot

________= _______________________________________
hrpc mailing list=
hrpc@irtf.org
= https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
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Tue, 12 Jun 2018 17:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595DABE49; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 01:57:39 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0kLtRH10Zom0; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 01:57:33 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0F9E1BE2E; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 01:57:33 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1528851453; bh=fxc1NZn6mPipB+Sxn+OVdz52lhi84BnXyZpLpxezW80=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=b1+zq7DO4X+bJWnF3sYGKaYK9maYfn1woWjaAz2OBuwZV2K9oiuXifNWj2KdGdWdy xWnx5U2zoKjziX0n7BSVPHZuT3RlaX895RrUPjdkHR+GyVuPSUrSGdF+FCy6m0q6Vc g3Qhxoh3yhR+viFYi00PvsKubpDFzC+74+YDPx0w= To: Mark Perkins , John Curran , Eliot Lear Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> <1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> <8F30507E-CC8E-4617-A029-EC7EC13B9D9A@istaff.org> <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> <5dafa04f-b07e-2bc8-fbdd-ac8895bad0d1@cisco.com> <1194607031.4537843.1528849160355@mail.yahoo.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzTJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxM7BTQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <6a64b620-9aaa-18ef-f7ea-87b641fcc2b2@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 01:57:32 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1194607031.4537843.1528849160355@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fEVTlhYT8nhC79dSbpTtEf5G59tV2HLvv" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 00:57:49 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --fEVTlhYT8nhC79dSbpTtEf5G59tV2HLvv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="LPZ5c8UmQJ7pykLOaI38ujksOz2ZyuU8Q"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Mark Perkins , John Curran , Eliot Lear Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <6a64b620-9aaa-18ef-f7ea-87b641fcc2b2@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> <1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> <8F30507E-CC8E-4617-A029-EC7EC13B9D9A@istaff.org> <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> <5dafa04f-b07e-2bc8-fbdd-ac8895bad0d1@cisco.com> <1194607031.4537843.1528849160355@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1194607031.4537843.1528849160355@mail.yahoo.com> --LPZ5c8UmQJ7pykLOaI38ujksOz2ZyuU8Q Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0D96B15536DF2800E33D5A5D" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0D96B15536DF2800E33D5A5D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 13/06/18 01:19, Mark Perkins wrote: > Stephen >=20 > On terminology, it was me who first used the term "anonymity' in this > discussion. It was a logical leap (without explanation) from Johns > connecting attribution to legal redress. Pseudonymity has not much > impact on legal redress unless it can be connected to a real human; > if it cannot be so connected, the human remain anonymous... That's not the problem I was describing. The problem I was trying to get at is that anonymity is almost impossible, *technically*. For me, that does not mean we ought give up and aim for a fully identified network, rather the opposite - I figure we ought be figuring out how to make less easily identifiable networking more usable, both for people using network services and for people managing networks. (That latter set of folks may currently disagree with me that the less they have access to superfluous data related to people using their services, the better off they are as administrators - but if so, they're wrong;-) >=20 > I agree with your points regarding clarity, something the "Anonymity, > Human Rights and Internet Protocols" draft deals with. Last I checked, I didn't think that draft had approached the right balance. But I may be mis-remembering. >=20 > However, I disagree with your view that the "need to consider the > ability to run networks that are constantly under attack" renders > this moot. Attribution (in terms of legal redress) is NOT necessary > for this purpose... The "this" there isn't the same thing, and in any case I said "most of this" - meaning "this" =3D=3D "the argument." I agree that strongly attributable networking does not need to be ubiquitous to counter attacks. However, I think it's likely true that defenders need in some cases to be able to re-identify attackers (at least to the level of categorising attack vs. kosher traffic) to mount effective defenses, e.g. against (D)DoS. I figure it's that latter that makes discussion of John's stated concerns moot. (Put another way - there is no danger whatsoever that a rogue-HR-review would be taken seriously if it made technically stupid recommendations or claimed that technically necessary things "MUST NOT" be done. IMO, given that isn't a danger, discussion of it as a danger is moot.) Cheers, S. >=20 > Eliot >=20 > The draft does not use the UDHR as a basis. It refers to the UDHR, > the ICCPR and other treaties, but only cites examples from the UDHR. > These examples are all found in the ICCPR excepting: >=20 > 'appropriate social and international order', which is the purpose of > the treaties; >=20 > 'participation in cultural life...' which is dealt with in another > treaty - the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural > Rights. >=20 > I totally agree that there is a tension between these various rights, > something recognised by the various enforcement & monitoring bodies > of the treaties. This why I prefer to refer to the treaties rather > than the UDHR, it enables reference to General Comments and agreed > analyses of the treaties and the tensions between the rights > contained in them, something the UDHR does not. >=20 > Perhaps we should look at whether our examples should come from the > Treaties rather than the UDHR. The majority of countries are > signatories to the ICCPR and other relevant treaties, while the UDHR > is only by default due to countries UN membership. >=20 > As to 'a scrub on terminology', I totally agree; have attempted to > aid in proof-reading and polishing myself, but is clearly not > finished. >=20 > In fact, your reference to 3.2.4 and Right to Security illustrates > this point as it seems to conflate / confuse network security with > the 'Right to security' with not explanation... >=20 > Regards Mark P. >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Monday, June 11, 2018, 9:34:06 PM GMT+11, Eliot Lear > wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 11.06.18 01:01, Mark Perkins wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi John >=20 > You are correct regarding the Universal Declaration, which is only > 'declaratory'. I was referring to the signed treaty - the > International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - and its > enforcement mechanisms. >=20 > This draft itself uses the UDHR as a basis. John's point is that > there is a tension between these various rights. Similarly, Section > 3.2.4 references BCP72 and talks about a "Right to security", but we > haven't had a real discussion of what that means. >=20 > One other comment: >=20 > The document really needs a scrub on terminology. For instance, > Section 3.2.13 talks about reliability and degradation, when the > example really discusses downgrade attacks. The second example (TCP > ACKs) is not well connected to the point. >=20 > Eliot _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing > list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20 > hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --------------0D96B15536DF2800E33D5A5D Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 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DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from geode.istaff.org (unknown [108.56.136.114]) by outbound1.eu.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id df4754a1-6ea4-11e8-afd2-4ddcc8249dd4; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 00:58:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by geode.istaff.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227CF24752EC; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 20:58:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at istaff.org Received: from geode.istaff.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (geode.istaff.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5jKsIr8mwKDl; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 20:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (unknown [190.197.103.146]) by geode.istaff.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D77A624752D5; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 20:58:21 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curran Message-Id: <026A8C43-9FB5-4AA7-8710-507A8FA930EB@istaff.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ED854947-E2B2-45F7-A2F5-39A125ACB7C4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 19:58:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: <1194607031.4537843.1528849160355@mail.yahoo.com> Cc: Mark Perkins , Eliot Lear , hrpc@irtf.org To: Mark Perkins References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> <1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> <8F30507E-CC8E-4617-A029-EC7EC13B9D9A@istaff.org> <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> <5dafa04f-b07e-2bc8-fbdd-ac8895bad0d1@cisco.com> <1194607031.4537843.1528849160355@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 00:58:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ED854947-E2B2-45F7-A2F5-39A125ACB7C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 12 Jun 2018, at 7:19 PM, Mark Perkins wrote: >=20 > The draft does not use the UDHR as a basis. It refers to the UDHR, the = ICCPR and other treaties, but only cites examples from the UDHR. These = examples are all found in the ICCPR excepting: >=20 > 'appropriate social and > international order', which is the purpose of the treaties; >=20 > 'participation in cultural life...' which is dealt with in another = treaty - the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural = Rights. >=20 > I totally agree that there is a tension between these various rights, = something recognised by the various enforcement & monitoring bodies of = the treaties. This why I prefer to refer to the treaties rather than the = UDHR, it enables reference to General Comments and agreed analyses of = the treaties and the tensions between the rights contained in them, = something the UDHR does not. Mark -=20 =20 If one has been told that "the IETF has done a comprehensive review of a = protocol for potential human rights impacts=E2=80=9D, then it is quite a = reasonable expectation that human rights in the UDHR have been = considered. It may be that the rights contained therein aren=E2=80=99t = impacted by the protocol in question or are impacted in a manner that is = deemed reasonable given the consideration due other human rights, but = some consideration is due if there are impacts.=20 If the group wants to restrict its analysis to a subset of rights in = UDHR, or a specific set of human rights and interpretations contained = elsewhere, that also seems reasonable, but probably shouldn=E2=80=99t be = considered comprehensive, or promoted as such. =20 For example, it is certainly possible to create perfectly functional = protocols that provide for dynamic assignment and mapping of = identifiers, and do not maintain logs or state that allows attribution = of Internet actor at a later point in time. Such a protocol would = certainly have an impact on the human right to an effective remedy (for = those who have their security violated by an Internet actor via such = means) - regardless of the presence or absence of =E2=80=9Ceffective = remedy=E2=80=9D in ICCPR. i.e. it would probably be best to not reference the work of HT-rt as = =E2=80=9Ca comprehensive analysis of the potential protocol impacts to = human rights=E2=80=9D (as one cannot both be comprehensive and omit = well-recognized human rights) but instead simply as an assessment of = potential impacts to human rights noted in the International Covenant on = Civil and Political Rights.=20 Thanks, /John --Apple-Mail=_ED854947-E2B2-45F7-A2F5-39A125ACB7C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = 12 Jun 2018, at 7:19 PM, Mark Perkins <marknoumea@yahoo.com> wrote:

The draft does not use the UDHR = as a basis. It refers to the UDHR, the ICCPR and other treaties, but = only cites examples from the UDHR. These examples are all found in the = ICCPR excepting:

'appropriate social and
international order', which is the purpose of the = treaties;

'participation in cultural = life...' which is dealt with in another treaty - the International = Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

I totally agree that there is a tension between these various = rights, something recognised by the various enforcement & monitoring = bodies of the treaties. This why I prefer to refer to the treaties = rather than the UDHR, it enables reference to General Comments and = agreed analyses of the treaties and the tensions between the rights = contained in them, something the UDHR does = not.

Mark - 
 
If one has = been told that "the IETF has done a comprehensive review of a protocol = for potential human rights impacts=E2=80=9D, then it is quite a = reasonable expectation that human rights in the UDHR have been = considered.  It may be that the rights contained therein aren=E2=80=99= t impacted by the protocol in question or are impacted in a manner that = is deemed reasonable given the consideration due other human rights, but = some consideration is due if there are impacts. 

If the group wants to restrict its analysis to a = subset of rights in UDHR, or a specific set of human rights and = interpretations contained elsewhere, that also seems reasonable, but = probably shouldn=E2=80=99t be considered comprehensive, or promoted as = such.   

For example, it = is certainly possible to create perfectly functional protocols that = provide for dynamic assignment and mapping of identifiers, and do not = maintain logs or state that allows attribution of Internet actor at a = later point in time.  Such a protocol would certainly have an = impact on the human right to an effective remedy (for those who have = their security violated by an Internet actor via such means) - = regardless of the presence or absence of =E2=80=9Ceffective remedy=E2=80=9D= in ICCPR.

i.e. it would probably be = best to not reference the work of HT-rt as =E2=80=9Ca comprehensive = analysis of the potential protocol impacts to human rights=E2=80=9D (as = one cannot both be comprehensive and omit well-recognized human rights) = but instead simply as an assessment of potential impacts to human rights = noted in the International Covenant on Civil and Political = Rights. 

Thanks,
/John




= --Apple-Mail=_ED854947-E2B2-45F7-A2F5-39A125ACB7C4-- From nobody Tue Jun 12 20:33:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB00130DD7 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 20:33:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NvUO45ZJjYa9 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 20:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0254.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.254]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE06C130DD2 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2018 20:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (clb03-v110.bra.tucows.net [216.40.38.60]) by smtprelay06.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC541807F1FD for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 03:33:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Session-Marker: 6176726940646F7269612E6F7267 X-Spam-Summary: 2, 0, 0, , d41d8cd98f00b204, avri@doria.org, :, RULES_HIT:2:41:152:355:379:962:973:988:989:1189:1221:1260:1313:1314:1345:1381:1437:1516:1517:1518:1535:1575:1589:1594:1606:1730:1776:1792:1963:2527:2559:2562:2693:2895:2911:3138:3139:3140:3141:3142:3352:3865:3866:3873:4119:4425:5007:6117:6119:6674:6678:7652:7875:7903:8583:8603:9121:10004:10216:10848:11233:11658:11914:12043:13139:14096:14877:21080:21433:21451:21524:21554:21611:21627:30046:30054:30070, 0, RBL:162.220.220.138:@doria.org:.lbl8.mailshell.net-62.14.0.100 64.201.201.201, CacheIP:none, Bayesian:0.5, 0.5, 0.5, Netcheck:none, DomainCache:0, MSF:not bulk, SPF:fn, MSBL:0, DNSBL:neutral, Custom_rules:0:0:0, LFtime:33, LUA_SUMMARY:none X-HE-Tag: hat22_7234482ecf807 X-Filterd-Recvd-Size: 8134 Received: from [198.18.64.201] (unknown [162.220.220.138]) (Authenticated sender: avri@doria.org) by omf11.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 03:33:04 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 23:33:03 -0400 From: Avri To: Hrpc Message-ID: <07c97b0a-b32d-45b4-aad2-95226168e61a@avris-iPad> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5b20906f_6b8b4567_15d" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Draft Agenda X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 03:33:09 -0000 --5b20906f_6b8b4567_15d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Comments Please Proposed Agenda HRPC IETF 102 (Will add times later - let me know how much you need - we have requested 2 hrs) - Beginning (5 min) Scribe, Note takers Agenda Review &c. - Research Group status - Update from the Hackathon - Talk by Roya Ensafi - Title TDB - Possible other speaker - TBD (Will all of these need time?) - Update/discussion of draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines - Update/discussion on draft-irtf-hrpc-anonymity - Update/discussion on draft-tenoever-hrpc-association - Update/discussion on draft-tenoever-hrpc-political - Update/discussion/discussion on implementation of 451 - Human Rights Review Team Update on any drafts under RFC8280 considerations review Early impression of usefulness of RFC8280 for the task - Open Discussion - AOB --5b20906f_6b8b4567_15d Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

Comments Please



Proposed Agenda HRPC IET=46 102

(Will add times later - let me know how much you need - we have requ= ested 2 hrs)


- Beginning (5 min)

Scribe, Note takers

Agenda Review

&c.

- Research Group status

- Update from the Hackathon


- Talk by Roya Ensafi - Title TDB

- Possible other speaker - TBD


(Will all of these need time=3F)

- Update/discussion of draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines

- Update/discussion on draft-irtf-hrpc-anonymity

- Update/discussion on draft-tenoever-hrpc-association

- Update/discussion on draft-tenoever-hrpc-political

- Update/discussion/discussion on implementation of 451


- Human Rights Review Team

Update on any drafts under R=46C8280 considerations review

Early impression of usefulness of R=46C8280 for the task

=


- Open Discussion

- AOB


=
--5b20906f_6b8b4567_15d-- From nobody Fri Jun 15 05:01:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 543C4130EB1 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 05:01:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UQG16g8lkTgB for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 05:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B886A130E0E for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 05:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fTnPZ-000766-So for hrpc@irtf.org; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 14:01:02 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <07c97b0a-b32d-45b4-aad2-95226168e61a@avris-iPad> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 14:01:01 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <07c97b0a-b32d-45b4-aad2-95226168e61a@avris-iPad> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: bc82d6a2e188773012c482ed32290af0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Draft Agenda X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 12:01:21 -0000 Hi Avri, Looks good, some points: It would be great to understand what Roya's talk would be about. Also the chair could consider inviting/adding some of the other Canadian thinkers and do-ers that are very active in the field of Internet infrastructure and human rights, such as Lex Gill, Ron Deibert and and the people from Deflect.ca. Best, Niels On 06/13/2018 05:33 AM, Avri wrote: > Comments Please > > > > Proposed Agenda HRPC IETF 102 > > (Will add times later - let me know how much you need - we have > requested 2 hrs) > > > - Beginning (5 min) > > Scribe, Note takers > > Agenda Review > > &c. > > - Research Group status > > - Update from the Hackathon > > > - Talk by Roya Ensafi - Title TDB > > - Possible other speaker - TBD > > > (Will all of these need time?) > > - Update/discussion of draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines > > - Update/discussion on draft-irtf-hrpc-anonymity > > - Update/discussion on draft-tenoever-hrpc-association > > - Update/discussion on draft-tenoever-hrpc-political > > - Update/discussion/discussion on implementation of 451 > > > - Human Rights Review Team > > Update on any drafts under RFC8280 considerations review > > Early impression of usefulness of RFC8280 for the task > > > - Open Discussion > > - AOB > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > From nobody Fri Jun 15 05:08:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876F2130E14 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 05:08:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hQILw-TmH79C for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 05:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 786B7130E99 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 05:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fTnWO-0000VJ-73 for hrpc@irtf.org; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 14:08:05 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <07c97b0a-b32d-45b4-aad2-95226168e61a@avris-iPad> From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAHNJU1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QG1heWZpcnN0Lm9yZz7CwJgEEwECAEICGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo 9WUFCRAV234ACgkQDDKicb08x4DklAf+ODKRmP6C2MnBz6vL8N8l3vZJUqoRcYXTn3uTpT05 Wou87ZIZ/P/OV2/uOMKkczLQQydj5S8PxbLTeg+U5f/63hdy99ON+K2b4izg7Qasdl1SqXTH q1pmhbrcbLbVKDJ345fdEg7RuMnv4gd3EaT/yQa99zHy8JHaBKaPEUQAa65HTt2Sy2c6L6BA aMZx1TOZ9/cZ7L1gJyytJbEyvg/JLOatJEI4rewUWU2TMSGJijwjAUBagwDPWyxpz+vXdKsD tqRTpY4xvXaeUQo0QXf0c5j1Gcglzv7ywZcyz1MGD1aLS9/CqeB3I4EMbvH/33LS3jNkfKbV XOTSjmo7l22CNc7ATQRMdE1nAQgA4mpP2LjFuAW2li9FPbDYOMzt0MtThXsnvHyY0fDv8FlU qnKgPrMY80VHntnxwqepFS3ncunVX4ipq+fadta+LHpTnbJSmlphBrc9qGJxqcjwf4yo35Xh OXCJFwnaoAwIX237lXRe4Xh6X4VMuJt8jiZdvgpbk/whvQH2grcq8KjCcy1iuL5pBl8ZwYG/ dphitFhQdqEcnc/krIqG4KQgKiUi3K/GR0OeEmw/cscWD7/CLEo7eHiaGQhSOyDQbM+Iu2o/ 6uMXMUPsYlMMqgmVL68zMacO3PE17jx0rQ8oZ7CpBY8YZWOWrzXrtFT8JO9guuCPsvd4KT6y 97y9LRJlPQARAQABwsB8BBgBAgAmAhsMFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo9WYF CRAV238ACgkQDDKicb08x4DU4QgAmlyBlFhfU0jpkbyD3HQ+3CJqWdBT422pVIrj3qNT2ehy fWO66Muidmd4Y279uV3p3TQEJOQvnV7FVAC9+bI7AdBy00BAjHgJ5eSQZxKTXUoeeBAsTZHN /HaHewjYWHMvCuuzir/Wt3A6Cehh8gp9I/Vg+oL3dTldVqqgZLgnA83bT/R8fI/e85LDlpdx KJ0+uy/grg3AbH7LUUrmMIC2iO8mQWYuNlizsUZLFvJhCAU2c5l8B5mv2BoWFhL+l7mmNcdF bwBFXon7Ea1jkCnbWVxtXkPYkcuWuMSTJswn9HhZVJWjUonKqUZKAb9PxRzC9crZ+X14tQT3 iJt2a4ZM4w== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:08:01 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a9e4b997d6a751f3e45cb47a3c2b1d2c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Draft Agenda X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 12:08:16 -0000 Hi, I can ask Ron and Lex today. I also did a pitch at the Citizen Lab yesterday-- embedded in more general talk-- for folks to join the IETF. Certainly some interest that I can follow up with next week. Deflect/eQualitie are easy to reach because they're already in Montreal. They could talk about Deflect, their bot hunting/forensic work, censorship circumvention or even their multiparty chat protocol. What's most interesting? -Mallory On 15/06/18 08:01, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi Avri, > > Looks good, some points: > > It would be great to understand what Roya's talk would be about. > > Also the chair could consider inviting/adding some of the other Canadian > thinkers and do-ers that are very active in the field of Internet > infrastructure and human rights, such as Lex Gill, Ron Deibert and and > the people from Deflect.ca. > > Best, > > Niels > > On 06/13/2018 05:33 AM, Avri wrote: >> Comments Please >> >> >> >> Proposed Agenda HRPC IETF 102 >> >> (Will add times later - let me know how much you need - we have >> requested 2 hrs) >> >> >> - Beginning (5 min) >> >> Scribe, Note takers >> >> Agenda Review >> >> &c. >> >> - Research Group status >> >> - Update from the Hackathon >> >> >> - Talk by Roya Ensafi - Title TDB >> >> - Possible other speaker - TBD >> >> >> (Will all of these need time?) >> >> - Update/discussion of draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines >> >> - Update/discussion on draft-irtf-hrpc-anonymity >> >> - Update/discussion on draft-tenoever-hrpc-association >> >> - Update/discussion on draft-tenoever-hrpc-political >> >> - Update/discussion/discussion on implementation of 451 >> >> >> - Human Rights Review Team >> >> Update on any drafts under RFC8280 considerations review >> >> Early impression of usefulness of RFC8280 for the task >> >> >> - Open Discussion >> >> - AOB >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > -- Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Fri Jun 15 06:00:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D178B130E3F for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 06:00:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s9jvqSBnyGQP for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 06:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.bortzmeyer.org (ayla.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fe27:3d3f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56841130E10 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 06:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ayla.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 9FCA8A05E0; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 14:59:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: by godin (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2559FEC0B1E; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 14:56:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 14:56:06 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20180615125606.GA22027@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 18.04 (bionic) X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] A real-world example of HTTP status code 451 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 13:00:05 -0000 http://www.technicianonline.com/ (from a place geo-located in Europe) 451: Unavailable due to legal reasons We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact technician-editor@ncsu.edu or call 919-515-2411. https://static.mstdn.fr/static/media_attachments/files/000/400/747/original/a73f52e18d8748c5.png % curl -v www.technicianonline.com * Rebuilt URL to: www.technicianonline.com/ * Trying 192.104.183.109... * TCP_NODELAY set * Connected to www.technicianonline.com (192.104.183.109) port 80 (#0) > GET / HTTP/1.1 > Host: www.technicianonline.com > User-Agent: curl/7.58.0 > Accept: */* > < HTTP/1.1 451 Unavailable For Legal Reasons < Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 12:51:12 GMT < Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 < X-Loop: 1 < X-XRDS-Location: http://www.technicianonline.com/tncms/xrds/ < X-UA-Compatible: IE=edge < Link: ; rel=preconnect dns-prefetch; crossorigin < X-TNCMS: 1.39.6; app8; 0.06s; 2.8M < X-Frame-Options: SAMEORIGIN < X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff < X-XSS-Protection: 1; mode=block < Vary: X-IPCountry, Accept-Encoding < Set-Cookie: TNNoMobile=1; path=/; expires=Thu, 2 Aug 2031 20:47:11 UTC < X-VCache: HIT < Content-Length: 4264 < Age: 244 < Connection: keep-alive < ... From nobody Fri Jun 15 07:06:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 834B0130DCB for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 07:06:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=privaterra.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8JGReqVnz5re for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 07:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x241.google.com (mail-qk0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A65CD1294D7 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 07:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x241.google.com with SMTP id g14-v6so5646660qkm.6 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 07:05:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=privaterra.org; s=google; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=loDCBRa4K8NlycCeDJT+6QdMXuwpZEp3Ib4fwrIKUBw=; b=fMfgfsNRUOiSNzq5hzsJ3+sZfTA+X/QH5yZ39eTnJG2njk3XliJw+yY3h43SiFuP62 E1egPKQqKL32OAwvZituYuIgUHcwtZH1654UX2t9wD5C06GWLVlpyTbU1baV6Lv48AfH IW/YOoMu071vFRwGC/mDXlTEgLN59QT7VuJh4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=loDCBRa4K8NlycCeDJT+6QdMXuwpZEp3Ib4fwrIKUBw=; b=Flp+wVCA7l5lZiS/vaEyNVA8PMYh1Wp1VWGSfaLOjiRc2f1YCeAHwsp/kENJRpe6+h K9eh6Fk0WBjvfpRzuM8A27RILvzEZ2peZcvfrcvWQltj59uCdsJtaJ3iT5EKw/ue5KXg u44F9I2Z086a+l/lH5/Dl0P+umAaHOerotqX/Hpo2AJhy+wW/nF1GYSzJh9bv8jBSz7n ap/htK4aZelD9p7Icxyqbeaxx5aazoDPGaxEQtmb2cEbL2vWM74+kUhGX8W56r6Y8raJ h4yoVgcnFB3GSZPrtndwTahdMeym3wlbpG6dMV8k8oROOo4EG+ygvSowxlh8CdHHmC1J 3BvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E38EuKvPh8A9tf0EkXCD/OVqVPZqisGrFzdzy1HX6oLU2brTTnX gbXn+0Hc+EfDrYFAa4cNkifTTA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKJzFWXLDsL5gnHrjVts2ZGhoUcIrBU0sP8eC+rxN6ADTWEjpiTTjZloOizqOB3w+CHhEW65Mw== X-Received: by 2002:a37:2801:: with SMTP id o1-v6mr1389965qkh.319.1529071557490; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 07:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.3.5] (pool-100-15-241-35.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [100.15.241.35]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r2-v6sm6141157qtj.54.2018.06.15.07.05.55 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Jun 2018 07:05:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Guerra" To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 10:05:54 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.11.2r5479) Message-ID: <820787AB-4ADD-4A62-94EE-07378F2E4A59@privaterra.org> In-Reply-To: <20180615125606.GA22027@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <20180615125606.GA22027@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] A real-world example of HTTP status code 451 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 14:06:02 -0000 While it=E2=80=99s great to see error 451 being used, I would like to kno= w if = the folks on this list believe the message being displayed is factually = correct. I say this as the term European Economic Area (EEA) is the = combination of countries that form part of the European Union and the = European Free Trade Association (EFTA). Currently the GDPR is the = law/regulation of the land in EU member countries. Countries that form part of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) = =E2=80=93 the regional trade organization and free trade area consisting = of = four European states: Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland = =E2=80=93 have different processes to adopt EU regulations and may not ha= ve = yet adopted GDPR. That likely will occur soon, but has is not the case = yet. https://www.wr.no/en/aktuelt/nyheter/2017/implementing-the-gdpr-in-norway= / https://www.inblf.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/GDPR-Norway.pdf Might a possible correction be to simplify the message leaving out the = geographical designation and instead state.. We recognize you are = attempting to access this website from a country which enforces the = General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR).. regards Robert -- Robert Guerra Cel/Tel +1 416 893 0377 Twitter: twitter.com/netfreedom Email: rguerra@privaterra.org PGP Keys : https://keybase.io/rguerra On 15 Jun 2018, at 8:56, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > http://www.technicianonline.com/ (from a place geo-located in Europe) > > > 451: Unavailable due to legal reasons > > We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country = > belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which = > enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore = > access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact = > technician-editor@ncsu.edu or call 919-515-2411. > > > https://static.mstdn.fr/static/media_attachments/files/000/400/747/orig= inal/a73f52e18d8748c5.png > > % curl -v www.technicianonline.com > * Rebuilt URL to: www.technicianonline.com/ > * Trying 192.104.183.109... > * TCP_NODELAY set > * Connected to www.technicianonline.com (192.104.183.109) port 80 (#0) >> GET / HTTP/1.1 >> Host: www.technicianonline.com >> User-Agent: curl/7.58.0 >> Accept: */* >> > < HTTP/1.1 451 Unavailable For Legal Reasons > < Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 12:51:12 GMT > < Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DUTF-8 > < X-Loop: 1 > < X-XRDS-Location: http://www.technicianonline.com/tncms/xrds/ > < X-UA-Compatible: IE=3Dedge > < Link: ; rel=3Dpreconnec= t = > dns-prefetch; crossorigin > < X-TNCMS: 1.39.6; app8; 0.06s; 2.8M > < X-Frame-Options: SAMEORIGIN > < X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff > < X-XSS-Protection: 1; mode=3Dblock > < Vary: X-IPCountry, Accept-Encoding > < Set-Cookie: TNNoMobile=3D1; path=3D/; expires=3DThu, 2 Aug 2031 20:47= :11 = > UTC > < X-VCache: HIT > < Content-Length: 4264 > < Age: 244 > < Connection: keep-alive > < > > .... > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc From nobody Fri Jun 15 07:56:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4641A130EF8 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 07:56:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XedDsb2SKZZJ for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 07:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CAB0130EF4 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 07:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fTq9b-0003hU-0l for hrpc@irtf.org; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 16:56:43 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20180615125606.GA22027@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <820787AB-4ADD-4A62-94EE-07378F2E4A59@privaterra.org> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <63ec887a-fb09-0e6b-1072-e1fb3195c026@nielstenoever.net> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 16:56:42 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <820787AB-4ADD-4A62-94EE-07378F2E4A59@privaterra.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 38b42a75504d14ed68437fa295b89bc6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] A real-world example of HTTP status code 451 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 14:56:47 -0000 On 06/15/2018 04:05 PM, Robert Guerra wrote: > > While it’s great to see error 451 being used, I would like to know if > the folks on this list believe the message being displayed is factually > correct. > No, it is as wrong as wrong can be. The website is not blocked because of legal reasons; GDPR does not mandate blocking of any sort. Actually this is just the most lazy way of copping out of corporate, social and legal responsibilities imho. Best, Niels From nobody Fri Jun 15 08:12:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351E7130E4F for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:12:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=WjZerEuB; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=TjwdW8t6 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t1v7_ZHS31bG for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2DD4130DC0 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211FCBE444 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:12:16 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1529075536; bh=kpxXFN+O1YaXQj5Qv7E7kwlywv6occrQBkI5eq2yvNg=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=WjZerEuBd0myYvh6DTE69awCgMcNBIgBWe1O4tM2SNDoFUxVX+Hgmjx3befK+Zv1F ont/7B8Y/Le5J1P/d/zUtq7HpEW8IcvwCBSfy5koyudf7Tv6R+Di971W00GUk+fTAc DPpj+3MoZ6tQtbzmcUYOy/kSXZpS4/zDGspt7Q7w= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u4lTnQDKnACf for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:12:13 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 11:12:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1529075533; bh=kpxXFN+O1YaXQj5Qv7E7kwlywv6occrQBkI5eq2yvNg=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=TjwdW8t6c2XQVU9AlvDzrYdSpeW8HGU4EM6LQHIrIBQ74d2Aidtr0CWJTHJ3MHh1g XgwWXtoDrWomo6N5RhYghCE6W2abbxwVvJfMmaaRauA+wi869ktOUhGA28t3ielGyY Pvm50RNdvdnXvNZNYpLw72LJlhP3Efl8E3nfyqC8= From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20180615151211.GA1126@mx4.yitter.info> References: <20180615125606.GA22027@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <820787AB-4ADD-4A62-94EE-07378F2E4A59@privaterra.org> <63ec887a-fb09-0e6b-1072-e1fb3195c026@nielstenoever.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ec887a-fb09-0e6b-1072-e1fb3195c026@nielstenoever.net> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] A real-world example of HTTP status code 451 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:12:49 -0000 On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 04:56:42PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote: > No, it is as wrong as wrong can be. The website is not blocked because > of legal reasons; GDPR does not mandate blocking of any sort. GDPR does not mandate blocking, but it does require companies to behave in various ways in order to conform to the law. It seems that in this case the operator of the site decided that the safest way to conform was simply not to interact with anyone who is apparently covered by the GDPR, and so they are refusing to talk to such people. I don't see how that fails to meet the following description in RFC 7725, section 3: This status code indicates that the server is denying access to the resource as a consequence of a legal demand. The description does not require a specific legal demand; neither does it say that the legal demand need extend only to the content on the website. >From my point of view it's unfortunate that this is the way the operator has chosen to proceed, but I don't see any way that 451 isn't a correct code here. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Fri Jun 15 08:26:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB15F130E2D for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:26:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fryP68-shxlS for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B6A3130E2C for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fTqcL-000604-Kb for hrpc@irtf.org; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 17:26:25 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20180615125606.GA22027@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <820787AB-4ADD-4A62-94EE-07378F2E4A59@privaterra.org> <63ec887a-fb09-0e6b-1072-e1fb3195c026@nielstenoever.net> <20180615151211.GA1126@mx4.yitter.info> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 17:26:25 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180615151211.GA1126@mx4.yitter.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a2d32f98be707cbcda8602d5fffa976a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] A real-world example of HTTP status code 451 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:26:30 -0000 On 06/15/2018 05:12 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 04:56:42PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> No, it is as wrong as wrong can be. The website is not blocked because >> of legal reasons; GDPR does not mandate blocking of any sort. > > GDPR does not mandate blocking, but it does require companies to > behave in various ways in order to conform to the law. It seems that > in this case the operator of the site decided that the safest way to > conform was simply not to interact with anyone who is apparently > covered by the GDPR, and so they are refusing to talk to such people. > I don't see how that fails to meet the following description in RFC > 7725, section 3: > > This status code indicates that the server is denying access to the > resource as a consequence of a legal demand. > > The description does not require a specific legal demand; neither does > it say that the legal demand need extend only to the content on the > website. > >>From my point of view it's unfortunate that this is the way the > operator has chosen to proceed, but I don't see any way that 451 isn't > a correct code here. > I saw GoDaddy use 451 for sites/accounts that did not pay their bills - so they did not live up to their contractual obligations under contract law. Do you think such an interpretation would also be fitting? Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Jun 15 08:29:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3F9130E2D for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:29:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=GLzExXQe; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=eYAnTTEf Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jhi7cpv8NTrm for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDD2E130E2C for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3CABE444 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:28:43 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1529076523; bh=X0T6b/H+6XIYFOc0Z1suzYf3102yiEe5TPWARYLPKig=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=GLzExXQe8qNKC+g9YHvLH6d/5WhmE9/+l3HF9JnnaAKwHr3MH2JdF/3o6TadSphWc OzxbUV+QSD935qZlSZRDuu9Sq3NA6VX7XhWXV6KH8tgcOjkFr0RvSvvoMBPtV3hwKT 87jvciR0SNhp2qa4zrE5tN0R4ISEgfvsdGvvLg+4= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0sqlbikX2JQx for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:28:41 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 11:28:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1529076521; bh=X0T6b/H+6XIYFOc0Z1suzYf3102yiEe5TPWARYLPKig=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=eYAnTTEfYogtqKb24YrxoJTVyBNJbJjqbarYP5LiV4DX7yLDo8niezKWSaxtk3/8i McmTo1QdTuhCQcaoHIsHaIq9+PAcFniLnQRU1qaGwFkATaGi1Uc1aIh6EOAZCmLSQD /lssbACERNfdySz2Wq715ZHWDDE02NJOkvGBy0B0= From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20180615152840.GC1126@mx4.yitter.info> References: <20180615125606.GA22027@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <820787AB-4ADD-4A62-94EE-07378F2E4A59@privaterra.org> <63ec887a-fb09-0e6b-1072-e1fb3195c026@nielstenoever.net> <20180615151211.GA1126@mx4.yitter.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] A real-world example of HTTP status code 451 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:29:15 -0000 On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 05:26:25PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote: > I saw GoDaddy use 451 for sites/accounts that did not pay their bills - > so they did not live up to their contractual obligations under contract > law. Do you think such an interpretation would also be fitting? It's a harder case to make, because in that case the legal demand is not _on_ the operator, but instead coming _from_ the operator. On the other hand, the RFC does not make that distinction. So I don't know. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Fri Jun 15 08:36:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F72130E46 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:35:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gz4TVG0wF8Tt for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0BE4130E2C for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fTqlY-0000jl-3p; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 17:35:56 +0200 Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:35:55 +0000 (UTC) From: Mallory Knodel To: Niels ten Oever Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <1076622126.62480876.1529076955723.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20180615125606.GA22027@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <820787AB-4ADD-4A62-94EE-07378F2E4A59@privaterra.org> <63ec887a-fb09-0e6b-1072-e1fb3195c026@nielstenoever.net> <20180615151211.GA1126@mx4.yitter.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.7.11_GA_1854 (zclient/8.7.11_GA_1854) Thread-Topic: A real-world example of HTTP status code 451 Thread-Index: BN9QADNNl/AqdhXEXbyWiJ9Vd0mdrg== X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 76f3589a93270604ea078d468a2051b3 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] A real-world example of HTTP status code 451 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:36:00 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: Niels ten Oever To: hrpc@irtf.org Sent: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:26:25 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [hrpc] A real-world example of HTTP status code 451 On 06/15/2018 05:12 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 04:56:42PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> No, it is as wrong as wrong can be. The website is not blocked because >> of legal reasons; GDPR does not mandate blocking of any sort. > > GDPR does not mandate blocking, but it does require companies to > behave in various ways in order to conform to the law. It seems that > in this case the operator of the site decided that the safest way to > conform was simply not to interact with anyone who is apparently > covered by the GDPR, and so they are refusing to talk to such people. > I don't see how that fails to meet the following description in RFC > 7725, section 3: > > This status code indicates that the server is denying access to the > resource as a consequence of a legal demand. > > The description does not require a specific legal demand; neither does > it say that the legal demand need extend only to the content on the > website. > >>From my point of view it's unfortunate that this is the way the > operator has chosen to proceed, but I don't see any way that 451 isn't > a correct code here. > I saw GoDaddy use 451 for sites/accounts that did not pay their bills - so they did not live up to their contractual obligations under contract law. Do you think such an interpretation would also be fitting? It does fit better than another error code. And many more possible legal ties not yet identified. It is why, as a side note, that censorship circumvention and censorship monitoring technologists are not happy about 451 because it does not make their job of identifying government filtering/blocking/censorship easier but potentially even harder. -M From nobody Fri Jun 15 20:01:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFB1130F32 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 20:01:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=pwD4TPqE; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Hq/BKHyg Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bcOn1V8MBt9v for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 20:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC331130F34 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 20:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4E1D21AD6; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 23:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 15 Jun 2018 23:01:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=tc7RlL8csJ/Iz823AeYVVyB6g1mOT 3w1bAJf+4ugmNs=; b=pwD4TPqE23XwMwdHZz6a+9gqSPSYz1T8FDwInhi//iCGo 530Z3AUufR+3oDsOD/IXD4TSDIyv20uOuIuVPuEVK1ORguo0jHmpUPGgsh3umIch IVMOfC9AGTdRfS7i5tJVD7QRp9lsT8h1UvhXbLAFeXOEPT+/aw6C+LkezEvCcAQA sYx1N1HiWdV1jWiAm/bbsC+SdL1q4tD903kGxLhg07k/7ztmxexXX7+gFtlZGxVo kkQjITzEVte1fUUkebnBI/RbMrJL+Fb0nW6Z543/XXub9yuqlUwKbD0P8bO95VF9 D6trmcMfCFw7PbioONyOjnEAqqgLq33w0KE3oOemw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=tc7RlL 8csJ/Iz823AeYVVyB6g1mOT3w1bAJf+4ugmNs=; b=Hq/BKHygs0YpQtd7+Ow0PZ CvIvr+luF6wwYDCVjNZvEx9FxELw3MP1dAmC5MSJLCYdkbZa3hPrsSRt06xCzyee rnJsc7KUJ7Xcvo3G4l7nrzqeqvVoagFAbMZZMctAOgqBswUW6RMEGNh+8WAb2jjn QEHQfy64rJ0encqIwwWzRaozsqA2uNkLYQpdBQxmklPzcHHMjFYY3ky+7TgEBGqD RlYB5u7/lc/dNle4Qqdznu2mTkaXBQcoaCq4mvGYLCoUaAOutHr6f0xRGT/uvaQT RPMPsGt5rTuFy+dScH+54FBCSPZzI/QsRsRzYSb0e5kE/zdnGZA+wBvenNlFUbJQ == X-ME-Proxy: X-ME-Sender: Received: from macbook-air.localdomain (unknown [144.136.175.28]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id ACFF71025D; Fri, 15 Jun 2018 23:01:30 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <20180615125606.GA22027@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 13:01:27 +1000 Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <995DA4C6-3C27-4400-8E0B-CAF519F9E9A7@mnot.net> References: <20180615125606.GA22027@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> To: Stephane Bortzmeyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] A real-world example of HTTP status code 451 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 03:01:36 -0000 It looks like they have tried to twist reality to say that they're = "blocking due to legal reasons" because of GDPR. However, the spec says = 451 is used "when a server operator has received a legal demand to deny = access to a resource or to a set of resources that includes the = requested resource." The legal demand in the case of GDPR is with = regards to data handling, not access to resources. Unfortunately, that description is in the Introduction of 7725, not the = actual description of the status code.=20 Cheers, > On 15 Jun 2018, at 10:56 pm, Stephane Bortzmeyer = wrote: >=20 > http://www.technicianonline.com/ (from a place geo-located in Europe) >=20 >=20 > 451: Unavailable due to legal reasons >=20 > We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country = belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which = enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore = access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact = technician-editor@ncsu.edu or call 919-515-2411. >=20 >=20 > = https://static.mstdn.fr/static/media_attachments/files/000/400/747/origina= l/a73f52e18d8748c5.png >=20 > % curl -v www.technicianonline.com > * Rebuilt URL to: www.technicianonline.com/ > * Trying 192.104.183.109... > * TCP_NODELAY set > * Connected to www.technicianonline.com (192.104.183.109) port 80 (#0) >> GET / HTTP/1.1 >> Host: www.technicianonline.com >> User-Agent: curl/7.58.0 >> Accept: */* >>=20 > < HTTP/1.1 451 Unavailable For Legal Reasons > < Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 12:51:12 GMT > < Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DUTF-8 > < X-Loop: 1 > < X-XRDS-Location: http://www.technicianonline.com/tncms/xrds/ > < X-UA-Compatible: IE=3Dedge > < Link: ; rel=3Dpreconnect= dns-prefetch; crossorigin > < X-TNCMS: 1.39.6; app8; 0.06s; 2.8M > < X-Frame-Options: SAMEORIGIN > < X-Content-Type-Options: nosniff > < X-XSS-Protection: 1; mode=3Dblock > < Vary: X-IPCountry, Accept-Encoding > < Set-Cookie: TNNoMobile=3D1; path=3D/; expires=3DThu, 2 Aug 2031 = 20:47:11 UTC > < X-VCache: HIT > < Content-Length: 4264 > < Age: 244 > < Connection: keep-alive > <=20 > > .... >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Jun 18 02:13:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1880F130DC4 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 02:13:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rtK_M67yJPka for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 02:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB9781277C8 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 02:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAF5A6A277; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:12:56 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1529313176; bh=iZa1Adihq8i9T2FWi7iTImRUw+ff348Z+sNu0ils8Kc=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=DzRSprE1B85r7uNqLo+eW75LYXKtwOprnxG4+3AMmCZGFaQA899l6xqdAeEOHQTtn cd//brRhiImfuq97aSWM7Z5uiM+4D2q7hlxpeo0lmIDmwiazSB5/BjnydBd1x3wRWF 0X5ZzjWtLShJ/WpQ4KbYtd5u6u1/PHcXH9h+i1f1+aKYcA6tXrFbsYuN9LZkEMgbpT IPLM3vkL4J+KPHs48FysC1N8y36bKQURBsXz0RDJ3G329Nb2gsiSScL56+y2i4FkEH 3QwzSxQ89syguWx3+TJefEd/Go5cNhcyemo8I+OgUFCQuX+DRFJZeLT/53srU+6/aB c+DYBNOrNpdog== Received: from null (appsuite-gw4.open-xchange.com [192.168.110.160]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6FE583C1580; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:12:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:12:55 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Mark Nottingham , Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <1314631827.2775.1529313176197@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <995DA4C6-3C27-4400-8E0B-CAF519F9E9A7@mnot.net> References: <20180615125606.GA22027@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <995DA4C6-3C27-4400-8E0B-CAF519F9E9A7@mnot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev7 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] A real-world example of HTTP status code 451 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 09:13:02 -0000 > Il 16 giugno 2018 alle 5.01 Mark Nottingham ha scritto: > > > > It looks like they have tried to twist reality to say that they're "blocking due to legal reasons" because of GDPR. However, the spec says 451 is used "when a server operator has received a legal demand to deny access to a resource or to a set of resources that includes the requested resource." The legal demand in the case of GDPR is with regards to data handling, not access to resources. > > Unfortunately, that description is in the Introduction of 7725, not the actual description of the status code. Maybe, after some time and some real world experience, the spec could be revised to clarify which legal situations are fit for 451 and which are not - or there could be a best practice document explaining it. But then, there is no protocol police, so people who want to dump their own responsibilities onto some random government would still happily use 451. Regards, -- Vittorio Bertola Head of Policy & Innovation Cell:+39 348 7015022Skype:in-skype-ox@bertola.eu Email:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Twitter: [@openexchange](http://twitter.com/openexchange)- Facebook: [OpenXchange](https://www.facebook.com/OpenXchange)- Web: [www.open-xchange.com](http://www.open-xchange.com) Open-Xchange AG, Rollnerstr. 14, 90408 Nuremberg, District Court Nuremberg HRB 24738 Managing Board: Rafael Laguna de la Vera, Carsten Dirks, Michael Knapstein, Stephan Martin Chairman of the Board: Richard Seibt European Office: Open-Xchange GmbH, Olper Huette 5f, D-57462 Olpe, Germany, District Court Siegen, HRB 8718 Managing Director: Frank Hoberg US Office: Open-Xchange. Inc., 530 Lytton Avenue, Palo Alto, CA 94301, USA Confidentiality Warning: This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s), are confidential, and may be privileged. 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From nobody Mon Jun 18 05:13:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87811130EAA for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:13:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4GVPOiaUHc9R for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFA20130EA6 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fUt2e-0008Md-9X for hrpc@irtf.org; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:13:52 +0200 References: <152932322569.3608.13402552095050289061.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <152932322569.3608.13402552095050289061.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <65e94e33-dd3e-cb65-41be-9830e72bcde4@nielstenoever.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:13:51 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152932322569.3608.13402552095050289061.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 18b3e585b0ef946fc0f6ee9ab4fcc4ff Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 12:13:58 -0000 Hi all, A new version of draft-political, with a thorough revision of the structure and some edits. I made a clearer differentiation between the mapping of the different positions on the political nature and outcome of technology and the IETF standards process. There is also a new abstract and a new conclusion which answers the research question. Looking forward to discuss! If there are comments, am happy to make a new version before IETF102. Best, Niels -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05.txt Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:00:25 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Niels ten Oever , Amelia Andersdotter A new version of I-D, draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05.txt has been successfully submitted by Niels ten Oever and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-tenoever-hrpc-political Revision: 05 Title: On the Politics of Standards Document date: 2018-06-18 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 18 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05 Abstract: The IETF cannot ordain which standards or protocols are to be used on network, but the standards developing process in the IETF has a normative effect. Among other things the standardisation work at the IETF has implications on what is perceived as technologically possible and useful where networking technologies are being deployed, and its standards output reflect was is considered by the technical community as feasible and good practice. Because mediates many aspects of modern life, and therefore contributes to the ordering of societies and communities, the consideration of the politics and (potential) impact of protocols should be part of the standardization and development process. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Mon Jun 18 05:33:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C95130DE4 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:33:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CDVDV6OYpZGU for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.pibit.ch (dragon.pibit.ch [94.231.81.244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66DFB12F1A6 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.pibit.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837E3171C06D; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:33:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dragon.pibit.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dragon.pibit.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QsABVOYw_XSC; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:33:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.43.106] (65.227.197.178.dynamic.wless.zhbmb00p-cgnat.res.cust.swisscom.ch [178.197.227.65]) by dragon.pibit.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 03E14171C06C; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:33:15 +0200 (CEST) From: =?UTF-8?B?SGVybsOibmkgTWFycXVlcyAocOKJoXAgZm91bmRhdGlvbik=?= To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Cc: board@isoc.ch, council@pep.foundation Openpgp: id=31733E0C598D3A1CF70955D6CB5738652768F7E9 Message-ID: <7ee0f940-4dc5-323d-4f0e-ce94a46b18c2@pep.foundation> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:33:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nJnCFHNBTs7SHXTq9wkQY52TR75Jttr3O" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] HRPC main actors / authors welcome: Sep 11 workshop on Values of Internet Technologies (VIT) X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 12:33:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --nJnCFHNBTs7SHXTq9wkQY52TR75Jttr3O Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ceMfjtEgntd15Dvee9KktmIyBprE9SPKZ"; protected-headers="v1" From: =?UTF-8?B?SGVybsOibmkgTWFycXVlcyAocOKJoXAgZm91bmRhdGlvbik=?= To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Cc: board@isoc.ch, council@pep.foundation Message-ID: <7ee0f940-4dc5-323d-4f0e-ce94a46b18c2@pep.foundation> Subject: HRPC main actors / authors welcome: Sep 11 workshop on Values of Internet Technologies (VIT) --ceMfjtEgntd15Dvee9KktmIyBprE9SPKZ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CE0534A3B58A2DB5746FD10E" Content-Language: de-CH This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CE0534A3B58A2DB5746FD10E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear folks ISOC Switzerland (ISOC-CH) and the pEp Foundation with support of ISOC's Beyond the Net has a project on Implementing Mass Encryption by Standardizing pretty Easy privacy's protocols (pEp), which have as main focus to achieve automatic privacy protection for messaging (e.g., email)= =2E However, in the course of the project we also run workshop series throughout Switzerland -- they are called "Values of Internet Technologies" (VIT): https://www.isoc.ch/archives/3017 The next topic will be: Human Rights and present / future ICT =E2=80=92 Why and how are they re= lated? Date: Sep 11 I think a perfect match would be if one or two of the main HRPC actors / authors could come to Switzerland -- here Zurich -- to help us to set the picture. The event will be held at SWITCH, among other things authority for =2Ech/li top-level domains. What concerns past VIT events (there were already two workshops), see her= e: https://pep.foundation/vit/ Also for the third workshop on Human Rights now, we would organize for recordings and put them online. Who would be interested? Greets Hernani --=20 p=E2=89=A1p foundation: https://pep.foundation/ --------------CE0534A3B58A2DB5746FD10E Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0xCB5738652768F7E9.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0xCB5738652768F7E9.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFWozlEBEADAIFgjylzzPH7JKRJPbiEGoSsrSaCrbWLdy4sNGD4fS7GsuZ9f o/E9iYzC7WwGhN8rB4jsLv/ZfGVbAsmpypvZdReVs/BPidR8Vo1WMOK3lww1L6j8 7UV7TwUzG72u0zMXCUWMtX3+7kWZVlohXPCzDe7xyLu5tdfPWIAxDrI3h/+a4qAR ySVo8RwzILDwjbLF8at0w52oTRIWcr9CAus8ktRKBhc3MiUsSXHGgZLujUsXKAYg Vmh53uEVsjigeHZh6XPrzQPTnQ/VDcqNSRl4n+fQ2e/sZV7CQttcqb9zfj8P6Lyk jG3pe1AUSm9A0o75bi8PUluPWyH0wdt4D29xabFFyBANyYqKiLyZvnBqGSkqswnW 00QoYtMaEBh7nyuoUCa0bTMCRn8NaXRCnuINx+E2llqJqeQ0sMJ5WSQe4RbkWRsF PJOdiouLyHEZUpyQlMFesu/mN565eZsw3a7u9hxnoFgX0tF0hoONMRSAU1y3aZeb a+DvwXDQcSaHmBARQ2v8qWdql16Zhvf7KFo5Cris9jNknInzs2L6pHVZN8AY2ESO 2UXQJ+Fyy5BEHXS4LzEnWRPLYkAE5eVi+ZDcRMQeO2L3ZenqhcRRcQUAaRObho0L 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; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:43:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSc7PVP-4b4T for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.pibit.ch (dragon.pibit.ch [94.231.81.244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CF50130DDD for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.pibit.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408BD171C06D; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:43:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dragon.pibit.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dragon.pibit.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Eq67dI0_WJcf; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:43:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.43.106] (65.227.197.178.dynamic.wless.zhbmb00p-cgnat.res.cust.swisscom.ch [178.197.227.65]) by dragon.pibit.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E34CA171C06C; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:43:45 +0200 (CEST) From: =?UTF-8?B?SGVybsOibmkgTWFycXVlcyAocOKJoXAgZm91bmRhdGlvbik=?= To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Cc: board@isoc.ch, council@pep.foundation References: <7ee0f940-4dc5-323d-4f0e-ce94a46b18c2@pep.foundation> Openpgp: id=31733E0C598D3A1CF70955D6CB5738652768F7E9 Message-ID: <786bf15d-32ef-592d-4460-2ff5eac306e0@pep.foundation> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:43:45 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7ee0f940-4dc5-323d-4f0e-ce94a46b18c2@pep.foundation> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UvxYA0NbHolTWfyCLLVLqxojn6VKwrUn7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] HRPC main actors / authors welcome: Sep 11 workshop on Values of Internet Technologies (VIT) X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 12:43:54 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --UvxYA0NbHolTWfyCLLVLqxojn6VKwrUn7 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="IdXK3eiO4NLOZOMOGpn6H5bgfzHocARA0"; protected-headers="v1" From: =?UTF-8?B?SGVybsOibmkgTWFycXVlcyAocOKJoXAgZm91bmRhdGlvbik=?= To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Cc: board@isoc.ch, council@pep.foundation Message-ID: <786bf15d-32ef-592d-4460-2ff5eac306e0@pep.foundation> Subject: Re: HRPC main actors / authors welcome: Sep 11 workshop on Values of Internet Technologies (VIT) References: <7ee0f940-4dc5-323d-4f0e-ce94a46b18c2@pep.foundation> In-Reply-To: <7ee0f940-4dc5-323d-4f0e-ce94a46b18c2@pep.foundation> --IdXK3eiO4NLOZOMOGpn6H5bgfzHocARA0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E76A951351C6C9A085B61934" Content-Language: de-CH This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E76A951351C6C9A085B61934 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 18.06.2018 14:33, Hern=C3=A2ni Marques (p=E2=89=A1p foundation) wrote:= > I think a perfect match would be if one or two of the main HRPC actors = / > authors could come to Switzerland -- here Zurich -- to help us to set > the picture. To be more precise here, first of all: everyone is welcome! :) However, we're seeking for 1-2 persons specifically to provide input talks on HRPC work being done to this workshop, as it perfectly fits the topic and also the pEp project is about enforcing Human Rights by changing / setting protocols in such directions (i.e., by technical means= ). --=20 p=E2=89=A1p foundation: https://pep.foundation/ --------------E76A951351C6C9A085B61934 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0xCB5738652768F7E9.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0xCB5738652768F7E9.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFWozlEBEADAIFgjylzzPH7JKRJPbiEGoSsrSaCrbWLdy4sNGD4fS7GsuZ9f o/E9iYzC7WwGhN8rB4jsLv/ZfGVbAsmpypvZdReVs/BPidR8Vo1WMOK3lww1L6j8 7UV7TwUzG72u0zMXCUWMtX3+7kWZVlohXPCzDe7xyLu5tdfPWIAxDrI3h/+a4qAR ySVo8RwzILDwjbLF8at0w52oTRIWcr9CAus8ktRKBhc3MiUsSXHGgZLujUsXKAYg Vmh53uEVsjigeHZh6XPrzQPTnQ/VDcqNSRl4n+fQ2e/sZV7CQttcqb9zfj8P6Lyk 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<152932322569.3608.13402552095050289061.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <65e94e33-dd3e-cb65-41be-9830e72bcde4@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: <65e94e33-dd3e-cb65-41be-9830e72bcde4@nielstenoever.net> From: Bob Harold Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 11:50:14 -0400 Message-ID: To: mail@nielstenoever.net Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000029178b056eec8677" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 15:50:32 -0000 --00000000000029178b056eec8677 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 8:14 AM Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi all, > > A new version of draft-political, with a thorough revision of the > structure and some edits. > > I made a clearer differentiation between the mapping of the different > positions on the political nature and outcome of technology and the IETF > standards process. > > There is also a new abstract and a new conclusion which answers the > research question. > > Looking forward to discuss! If there are comments, am happy to make a > new version before IETF102. > > Best, > > Niels > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05.txt > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:00:25 -0700 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Niels ten Oever , Amelia Andersdotter > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05.txt > has been successfully submitted by Niels ten Oever and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-tenoever-hrpc-political > Revision: 05 > Title: On the Politics of Standards > Document date: 2018-06-18 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 18 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political/ > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05 > > Abstract: > The IETF cannot ordain which standards or protocols are to be used on > network, but the standards developing process in the IETF has a > normative effect. Among other things the standardisation work at the > IETF has implications on what is perceived as technologically > possible and useful where networking technologies are being deployed, > and its standards output reflect was is considered by the technical > community as feasible and good practice. Because mediates many > aspects of modern life, and therefore contributes to the ordering of > societies and communities, the consideration of the politics and > (potential) impact of protocols should be part of the standardization > and development process. > Minor nits: Abstract "Because mediates many" Perhaps: "Because it mediates many" 4. Technology and Politics: a literature review "Without judging them on their internal of external consistency they" "of" -> "or" 4.3. All protocols are political sometimes "protocols can possible be predicted, on could at least consider the" "on" -> "one" 4.4. The network has its own logic and values "This means that the network already contains constrains on what can be deployed into it." "constrains" -> "constraints" 7. Conclusion "undispited that standards and protocols are both product of a" "undispited" -> "undisputed" -- Bob Harold --00000000000029178b056eec8677 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Ju= n 18, 2018 at 8:14 AM Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net> wrote:
Hi all,

A new version of draft-political, with a thorough revision of the
structure and some edits.

I made a clearer differentiation between the mapping of the different
positions on the political nature and outcome of technology and the IETF standards process.

There is also a new abstract and a new conclusion which answers the
research question.

Looking forward to discuss! If there are comments, am happy to make a
new version before IETF102.

Best,

Niels


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05.txt<= br> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 05:00:25 -0700
From: interne= t-drafts@ietf.org
To: Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>, Amelia Andersdotter
<amelia@articl= e19.org>


A new version of I-D, draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05.txt
has been successfully submitted by Niels ten Oever and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-tenoever-hrpc-political=
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A005
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On the Politics of Standards
Document date:=C2=A0 2018-06-18
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 18
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/intern= et-drafts/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-tenoever-hrpc-political/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political
Diff:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url= 2=3Ddraft-tenoever-hrpc-political-05

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The IETF cannot ordain which standards or protocols are to be = used on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network, but the standards developing process in the IETF has = a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0normative effect.=C2=A0 Among other things the standardisation= work at the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF has implications on what is perceived as technologically<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible and useful where networking technologies are being de= ployed,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and its standards output reflect was is considered by the tech= nical
=C2=A0 =C2=A0community as feasible and good practice.=C2=A0 Because mediate= s many
=C2=A0 =C2=A0aspects of modern life, and therefore contributes to the order= ing of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0societies and communities, the consideration of the politics a= nd
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(potential) impact of protocols should be part of the standard= ization
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and development process.

Minor nits:

Abstr= act

"Because mediates many"

Perhaps:
"Because it mediates many"


4.=C2=A0 Technology and Politics: a l= iterature review

"Without judging them on the= ir internal of external consistency they"

&qu= ot;of" -> "or"


4.= 3.=C2=A0 All protocols are political sometimes

"protocols can possible be predicted, on could at least consider the&= quot;

"on" -> "one"


4.4.=C2=A0 The network has its own logic a= nd values

"This means that the network al= ready contains constrains on what can be deployed into it."
=
"constrains" -> "constraints"


7.=C2=A0 Conclusion

"undispited that standards and protocols are both product of a"= ;

"undispited" -> "undisputed&qu= ot;

--=C2=A0
Bob Harold

--00000000000029178b056eec8677-- From nobody Mon Jun 18 08:55:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74CCC130EC9 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 08:55:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isoc.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SY0RIzbgU_Ik for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 08:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9EBC130EA6 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 08:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x229.google.com with SMTP id e16-v6so14957688wmd.0 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 08:54:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isoc.ch; s=google; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=kr+bcCVHGxAsIMoc5ofI0eNsEU0Hc1NWTWMKmcc3wl4=; b=NhKxgftRchwe6r2XA4KfR2nkEO4a1iWN4n1QNi/PKzt8NUQ9VF3y547H2WApSpqVuR XMlulnuYwcSDVEQzXymvUpJligq/QYTr1DQt3L8BogaCbM7y6BsbTPsAg0LC8JodL9p0 UR+adO8p1YZJaISZyT1xSZhRnbAteH/IEryeY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=kr+bcCVHGxAsIMoc5ofI0eNsEU0Hc1NWTWMKmcc3wl4=; b=h0KJHPvzJAqgFRHGy8GonCQyjklkFoXn+stR2RnISgRWyyXibqCIgdiFhZPVNqQH3M ZfRVrQb8EagWn5/t9hMWgOqlD5HbXWEfuTjCm2bQwbQQXKjI7nnmdOP1Y+5rG5I8R5/c Tcy/XFMEL+U9554FOjmPOt3n0F1nKIDZZZSrwDmPaQ4+IpZ8/z83KYVr7LC4xNYvbvoz 3rg+gr+cIhdjOOEIgIJgc8vBJINqa/zM5qHD2yKhX6JtdPkoh+dm0LL7F72Q0VSM6xzo TADUYQYyLZTVxH5SubKUx2or/XKYwXWYi2KC+4LiTxNcSDNqfGK4FqR2gmdTdi54qzZ6 3eVg== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3wtnGB959xR7jaCRzK+q2BJyXbJ7w5nk637HyopwqTRLtqGfT/ /8WtCuvYgI4cz/71cqF4xlEB1A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKK0cItbxeR3pt85vPL175U+kXRXzcW/rlShpjHLtYVj77mOvwevJT7jcMreGAfvoU0kmJ4fPQ== X-Received: by 2002:a50:9f6b:: with SMTP id b98-v6mr11951118edf.219.1529337295164; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 08:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a02:168:6403:2:5c1:c565:4d52:c83a? ([2a02:168:6403:2:5c1:c565:4d52:c83a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y22-v6sm6254768edm.95.2018.06.18.08.54.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Jun 2018 08:54:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Hausding Message-Id: <06BA959E-C0C0-46A7-B63D-8330ACD30CF6@isoc.ch> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3A3376A6-82C5-45AB-B5DF-F6CF8C7B1A2A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 17:54:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <7ee0f940-4dc5-323d-4f0e-ce94a46b18c2@pep.foundation> Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" , ISOC-CH Board , council@pep.foundation To: =?utf-8?B?Ikhlcm7Dom5pIE1hcnF1ZXMgKHDiiaFwIGZvdW5kYXRpb24pIg==?= , Marcel Waldvogel , Imai Jen-La Plante References: <7ee0f940-4dc5-323d-4f0e-ce94a46b18c2@pep.foundation> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [isoc.ch-board] HRPC main actors / authors welcome: Sep 11 workshop on Values of Internet Technologies (VIT) X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 15:55:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3A3376A6-82C5-45AB-B5DF-F6CF8C7B1A2A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Hernani thank you for the reminder and the posting on the HRPC list. I already put the meeting and registration on the ISOC.ch website https://www.isoc.ch/events/human-rights-ict We have Imai and Marcel from the new board who offered to help with the = organization of the pEp Events Can you please keep them up to date? Imai offered to organize a remote location for the HR workshop in Geneva = and engage HR experts from Geneva. Daniel H=C3=BCrlimann a law Prof from The University St. Gallen, and = ISOC.ch member offered to give a talk. Daniel H=C3=BCrlimann = My question to all, how do we want to organize the meeting and who takes = the lead? I will support the meeting in Zurich, in our office but prefer if = someone can take the oveall lead. Thank you all, best regards Michael > Am 18.06.2018 um 14:33 schrieb Hern=C3=A2ni Marques (p=E2=89=A1p = foundation) : >=20 > Dear folks >=20 > ISOC Switzerland (ISOC-CH) and the pEp Foundation with support of = ISOC's > Beyond the Net has a project on Implementing Mass Encryption by > Standardizing pretty Easy privacy's protocols (pEp), which have as = main > focus to achieve automatic privacy protection for messaging (e.g., = email). >=20 > However, in the course of the project we also run workshop series > throughout Switzerland -- they are called "Values of Internet > Technologies" (VIT): >=20 > https://www.isoc.ch/archives/3017 >=20 > The next topic will be: >=20 > Human Rights and present / future ICT =E2=80=92 Why and how are they = related? >=20 > Date: Sep 11 >=20 > I think a perfect match would be if one or two of the main HRPC actors = / > authors could come to Switzerland -- here Zurich -- to help us to set > the picture. >=20 > The event will be held at SWITCH, among other things authority for > .ch/li top-level domains. >=20 > What concerns past VIT events (there were already two workshops), see = here: >=20 > https://pep.foundation/vit/ >=20 > Also for the third workshop on Human Rights now, we would organize for > recordings and put them online. >=20 > Who would be interested? >=20 > Greets >=20 > Hernani >=20 > -- > p=E2=89=A1p foundation: https://pep.foundation/ >=20 >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google = Groups "Board" group. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/isoc.ch/group/board/. > <0xCB5738652768F7E9.asc> --Apple-Mail=_3A3376A6-82C5-45AB-B5DF-F6CF8C7B1A2A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBAgAdFiEEY9kM7ImxpP5r/qyF04yro9jAzDYFAlsn1cYACgkQ04yro9jA zDY5mw//dC7jlixUfExttlSutt6PxdGYYpQ7qjjO5YnCg3oimBgWI4M8MrG1uk8u KWF4HhW5kCa5FOsLNmWyuaAGu4e0UVkCc68JsiqsDnT5hpjrZfxTghvLaoBemMhb h17Rntpg8K5wrWjVPKj6lTAvh6b8iA481XOPQueR/RaurDBC5u0hx6pA2KfVV3Ke D3dPF9cxAiHQ5HK5aQFTAfMgnSTCQzAC/BJBpmfoTjLhIcFhnREgNh/OAcmDRTjA +0Nb1x9LTSTMG9Dp/BcEzfjTQj/syWa7n7F477lr8xT+yjr1xqnNSwCVZWZSkgHj LGR6rgetOhNTWVpCp9PJPTzjDHiOQMVTQOLKE5bT4PeFteAX8Z50x0oFEwc/1ViA bpMz6FNaiwURfeTWLPy9UXqj4IkxMBblQ+ZYJQ2fQgq1MXvtyXbPrJAt+OSYNj2L EDxzuDyr1KnLht0gt9pGpcMro9YISM9BfJ4aeWHC6Z+OFTQuaumIoByeDK7Y/DsF JuRx7dwtN7+ZHuL2pNwSrfVJ47Wgzxs9vhntyifyRXnj3gT0uJAkxLs918D/943W 57fpXFwzrnXVEg3UEbo1FIdcU5mvybOaXx/2JBdlzSgGARXmyfNW2FCrIT0JuvEI lSwTr3g3hWHbD/CQyD8tvshPkmbKyE1uffnd3T0Rrwnr9vjbet8= =5ce1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_3A3376A6-82C5-45AB-B5DF-F6CF8C7B1A2A-- From nobody Wed Jun 20 01:06:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39987131063 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 01:06:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 56KNTSM6pARX for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 01:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x231.google.com (mail-pg0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 511E9128CF3 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 01:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x231.google.com with SMTP id q4-v6so1126082pgr.1 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 01:06:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=lt0m45QIarRL0u+F4ACalwvu9pFjdVuhUGOSNjqEzl0=; b=Ku9sBW1CKBoy3+m48gvZK6+OHRiCE29aSip6EdzRPKO1rgjAeS0IzPZrXt3L6pkiWw NnqW5Fax4KauDrIVIBv4w6OB5Q0UccMWhO0cxjsEUWD604psuO7MxfkarjXdPQ6jGCSP C6+nQ/MAJCXd8nWU/YrAuq9ng0AFr2X4reusIUqsFlYxrUz6msAjnBI4qKZ9eUIgrGuf SmItQYDrrSTyzDJrKvLU9uXrNYqwodvxIbtyRlkStyO7sxn8/h4jG45P57tVNexr3y+D Nv4r56Vi6XwQF/GclNavqU62aWRsoIWJyTbKdpQMJQMk6Qan8NxbR5B/wMp3nY6GRXZl 5C7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=lt0m45QIarRL0u+F4ACalwvu9pFjdVuhUGOSNjqEzl0=; b=AGypZEKpzqQ3AyBMuRFOtzYuxZNAmvQ9CRzBUc7Mk0YstMY2cG2LNxhSgyFMlK2Moi CeGutdQgLPLo4n0DunGOBs2svT4rza+sytQZdEx8TKX7ILhO7tfYOCO8HSm1eVGgNnsI 4qTEIZ0/E6nTfKjgikecUOVop5FG/0a163WapVA5c/NYgnaGb/jTLjPTUsOwsoY3Sm43 rRCt6Qoolibhlq1Scm3Df/rELFMoDRNmFbYTLU0kB9Tq16W8r9zvFzReC1mffMXlbz2d QoqUyS+SxtVDfm2idj15kEvU9ecINMh+smrKgSfjr9n/l2f0eJVViNBlJ+gCFCW9CrHj Ee5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3zUK4SZnrjfhID1Mk4ycKpeDWoHMQOBKfF6/aWs3WOtccsTott iKE2O+Tl2Of5P2/EvZacHQZ83xX/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKLZNzVQLbIpmPnZkMHrKVtk/gvTALKFJbn06i7jChRAyVrvYwbrAZiuXj7BcJEaW2oCeNgVug== X-Received: by 2002:a62:918:: with SMTP id e24-v6mr21134365pfd.30.1529481976704; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 01:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.17.2.22] (125-227-167-218.HINET-IP.hinet.net. [125.227.167.218]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j15-v6sm3068190pfk.40.2018.06.20.01.06.15 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Jun 2018 01:06:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9A925EB4-4913-429C-AE63-69DE795DA37F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 16:06:14 +0800 References: <83692addd263ee6488d6c89a813ad6c3@cweb09.nm.nhnsystem.com> <7a06dba3-064e-0c6f-d189-77615603ff31@itforchange.net> <5B24CAEF.1030405@firsthand.net> To: hrpc@irtf.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <1B324B87-3175-43BE-8A9C-E7E276369CF2@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Cyber Security Law X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 08:06:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9A925EB4-4913-429C-AE63-69DE795DA37F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 You may find this article interesting... On Jun 19, 2018, at 4:58 PM, Ayden F=C3=A9rdeline = wrote: > Samm's article in The Atlantic is now online: >=20 > Beijing Wants to Rewrite the Rules of the Internet > = https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/zte-huawei-china= -trump-trade-cyber/563033/ --Apple-Mail=_9A925EB4-4913-429C-AE63-69DE795DA37F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlsqCvYACgkQEhdRnd2G P+DOJw//XlfGskNtAPkgGmHh2UbZqU/9EVg0vEyjuiU5Mo87z8/KXUuPJmk7Yc4z 8rxrnkpRPDXcdRQr7nL8fWNZEA9I2460r0h3Lad8Zmz5AAg15FUs6B41iNwgYRAJ lze+gEmHksDQL6/2YPiLmE6GpJmy9+iY9R0uUS90h794gUfMGfVbC6TwBxW+2RmI j9DFHwEC2sKsMAv0iHnTzf6gPlcompDKdsYmDJZxKhmP9AeYrJBRWzn7SPMZo1Ki CEZPh6HikyAbDzP0JdMwOZlS2LMnfnuLJkaJ0ZQez6AIJV1+QV1UGHYI3Z0Ny11P 8MBB76qnUBRhfEwGofDtRybiG4JXh4PKwUmO0Nuqeo6QRfZdoHJhy4qA+G6oIlYD ILBzBoAFSvNVGM51/ZUoOy0sxBQL1QYaiVvziawQdHq/wAvGM9a69+d8vq0yte8C naZb+ldb5rc2uzn3Qbpff8Xg3K7gnzssV0t5GyhWwl4QPWAAuiGkVMIfZCXLz21M e8L1Rwjz4O9QHTm8DqLX8V+SaWoIGNl/3ps22x4iVlSxZakkgml8PQ39o4ggvcGq rmOOaI1aJWEJX/rgeVMzR1KuDgjJp0lJvW6y7rhBVCKgtZkKv7/eKhbY5VeAsQru nShobG2bJLE+sFOhqiLd+SoEmQhEj/IubPsBEaXuxCFCbTpmGTo= =VKan -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9A925EB4-4913-429C-AE63-69DE795DA37F-- From nobody Wed Jun 20 01:55:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B53E1292AD for ; 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Wed, 20 Jun 2018 01:55:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: cattekwaad@gmail.com Received: by 2002:adf:826d:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Jun 2018 01:54:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1B324B87-3175-43BE-8A9C-E7E276369CF2@gmail.com> References: <83692addd263ee6488d6c89a813ad6c3@cweb09.nm.nhnsystem.com> <7a06dba3-064e-0c6f-d189-77615603ff31@itforchange.net> <5B24CAEF.1030405@firsthand.net> <1B324B87-3175-43BE-8A9C-E7E276369CF2@gmail.com> From: Corinne Cath Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 09:54:41 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: E1j_Xx_bazAoT43eez7JuEmHUbk Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: Hrpc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000716fb6056f0ef5e7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Cyber Security Law X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 08:55:25 -0000 --000000000000716fb6056f0ef5e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for sharing, is the question of the technical standardization element something you have seen take place in the IETF as such? On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > You may find this article interesting... > > On Jun 19, 2018, at 4:58 PM, Ayden F=C3=A9rdeline w= rote: > > Samm's article in The Atlantic is now online: > > > > Beijing Wants to Rewrite the Rules of the Internet > > https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/ > zte-huawei-china-trump-trade-cyber/563033/ > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > --=20 Corinne Cath Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnecath@gmail.com Twitter: @C_Cath --000000000000716fb6056f0ef5e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for sharing, is the question of the technical standar= dization element something you have seen take place in the IETF as such?=C2= =A0

On= Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com= > wrote:
You may find this = article interesting...

On Jun 19, 2018, at 4:58 PM, Ayden F=C3=A9rdeline <ayden@ferdeline.com> wrote:
> Samm's article in The Atlantic is now online:
>
> Beijing Wants to Rewrite the Rules of the Internet
> https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/zt= e-huawei-china-trump-trade-cyber/563033/


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc




--
=
Corinne Cath
Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Al= an Turing Institute

Web: www.oii= .ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath
Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnecath@gmail.com
Twitter= : @C_Cath
=
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[125.227.167.218]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i65-v6sm6877994pfd.17.2018.06.20.04.02.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Jun 2018 04:02:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <42C1991C-5FD3-4619-AE6E-E8E333D50861@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B4E6BA99-11FB-4825-B4AA-D6A74406FB70"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 19:02:00 +0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Hrpc To: Corinne Cath References: <83692addd263ee6488d6c89a813ad6c3@cweb09.nm.nhnsystem.com> <7a06dba3-064e-0c6f-d189-77615603ff31@itforchange.net> <5B24CAEF.1030405@firsthand.net> <1B324B87-3175-43BE-8A9C-E7E276369CF2@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Cyber Security Law X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 11:02:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B4E6BA99-11FB-4825-B4AA-D6A74406FB70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Jun 20, 2018, at 4:54 PM, Corinne Cath wrote: > Thank you for sharing, is the question of the technical = standardization element something you have seen take place in the IETF = as such? Not in the IETF. China has an internal standards body (actually = several), which have written Chinese standards for various things which = are similar to but differ from International standards. The effect is = mostly to make products more costly, as vendors that choose to comply = with them still want to sell in International markets and must therefore = either make two products or make one that is configurable either way. An = example would be the WAPI specification, = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLAN_Authentication_and_Privacy_Infrastructu= re. > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Fred Baker = wrote: > You may find this article interesting... >=20 > On Jun 19, 2018, at 4:58 PM, Ayden F=C3=A9rdeline = wrote: > > Samm's article in The Atlantic is now online: > > > > Beijing Wants to Rewrite the Rules of the Internet > > = https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/zte-huawei-china= -trump-trade-cyber/563033/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Corinne Cath > Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute >=20 > Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath > Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnecath@gmail.com > Twitter: @C_Cath --Apple-Mail=_B4E6BA99-11FB-4825-B4AA-D6A74406FB70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Sun, 24 Jun 2018 06:08:18 +0000 Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 06:08:12 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Perkins To: Stephen Farrell Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <2085818458.1415837.1529820492937@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <6a64b620-9aaa-18ef-f7ea-87b641fcc2b2@cs.tcd.ie> References: <152157822067.9755.3588162767543787128@ietfa.amsl.com> <66044020-5342-4D53-855F-55B6C31F748C@istaff.org> <1290518140.3259028.1528676025902@mail.yahoo.com> <8F30507E-CC8E-4617-A029-EC7EC13B9D9A@istaff.org> <423182006.3270588.1528693293665@mail.yahoo.com> <5dafa04f-b07e-2bc8-fbdd-ac8895bad0d1@cisco.com> <1194607031.4537843.1528849160355@mail.yahoo.com> <6a64b620-9aaa-18ef-f7ea-87b641fcc2b2@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1415836_1790670834.1529820492934" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12006 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 06:08:22 -0000 ------=_Part_1415836_1790670834.1529820492934 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen "That's not the problem I was describing." MP> We seem to be on the same wavelength, but talking about different conte= xts of anonymity; exactly why we need to be clear about terminology! "I didn't think that draft had approached the right balance." MP> Perhaps it has not reached the right balance, but I think it is in this= draft rather than the guidelines that anonymity should be addressed. "(Put another way - there is no danger whatsoever that a rogue-HR-review would be taken seriously if it made technically stupid recommendations or claimed that technically necessary things "MUST NOT" be done. IMO, given that isn't a danger, discussion of it as a danger is moot.)" MP> Here we agree, BUT any HR review should be at least adressing the issue= s and justifying why certain things are 'technically necessary' and should = take priority over a HR issue. And by 'technically necessary', I do not mea= n 'just because we have always done it that way', or 'we are too lazy to tr= y other methods', or any of the other BS used by eg. ICANN / Krebs / tradem= ark owners in the current WHOIS GDPR situation. Best regards Mark P. On Wednesday, June 13, 2018, 11:58:02 AM GMT+11, Stephen Farrell wrote: =20 =20 =20 Hiya, On 13/06/18 01:19, Mark Perkins wrote: > Stephen >=20 > On terminology, it was me who first used the term "anonymity' in this > discussion. It was a logical leap (without explanation) from Johns > connecting attribution to legal redress. Pseudonymity has not much > impact on legal redress unless it can be connected to a real human; > if it cannot be so connected, the human remain anonymous... That's not the problem I was describing. The problem I was trying to get at is that anonymity is almost impossible, *technically*. For me, that does not mean we ought give up and aim for a fully identified network, rather the opposite - I figure we ought be figuring out how to make less easily identifiable networking more usable, both for people using network services and for people managing networks. (That latter set of folks may currently disagree with me that the less they have access to superfluous data related to people using their services, the better off they are as administrators - but if so, they're wrong;-) >=20 > I agree with your points regarding clarity, something the "Anonymity, > Human Rights and Internet Protocols" draft deals with. Last I checked, I didn't think that draft had approached the right balance. But I may be mis-remembering. >=20 > However, I disagree with your view that the "need to consider the > ability to run networks that are constantly under attack" renders > this moot. Attribution (in terms of legal redress) is NOT necessary > for this purpose... The "this" there isn't the same thing, and in any case I said "most of this" - meaning "this" =3D=3D "the argument." I agree that strongly attributable networking does not need to be ubiquitous to counter attacks. However, I think it's likely true that defenders need in some cases to be able to re-identify attackers (at least to the level of categorising attack vs. kosher traffic) to mount effective defenses, e.g. against (D)DoS. I figure it's that latter that makes discussion of John's stated concerns moot. (Put another way - there is no danger whatsoever that a rogue-HR-review would be taken seriously if it made technically stupid recommendations or claimed that technically necessary things "MUST NOT" be done. IMO, given that isn't a danger, discussion of it as a danger is moot.) Cheers, S. >=20 > Eliot >=20 > The draft does not use the UDHR as a basis. It refers to the UDHR, > the ICCPR and other treaties, but only cites examples from the UDHR. > These examples are all found in the ICCPR excepting: >=20 > 'appropriate social and international order', which is the purpose of > the treaties; >=20 > 'participation in cultural life...' which is dealt with in another > treaty - the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural > Rights. >=20 > I totally agree that there is a tension between these various rights, > something recognised by the various enforcement & monitoring bodies > of the treaties. This why I prefer to refer to the treaties rather > than the UDHR, it enables reference to General Comments and agreed > analyses of the treaties and the tensions between the rights > contained in them, something the UDHR does not. >=20 > Perhaps we should look at whether our examples should come from the > Treaties rather than the UDHR. The majority of countries are > signatories to the ICCPR and other relevant treaties, while the UDHR > is only by default due to countries UN membership. >=20 > As to 'a scrub on terminology', I totally agree; have attempted to > aid in proof-reading and polishing myself, but is clearly not > finished. >=20 > In fact, your reference to 3.2.4 and Right to Security illustrates > this point as it seems to conflate / confuse network security with > the 'Right to security' with not explanation... >=20 > Regards Mark P. >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Monday, June 11, 2018, 9:34:06 PM GMT+11, Eliot Lear > wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 11.06.18 01:01, Mark Perkins wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi John >=20 > You are correct regarding the Universal Declaration, which is only > 'declaratory'. I was referring to the signed treaty - the > International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - and its > enforcement mechanisms. >=20 > This draft itself uses the UDHR as a basis.=C2=A0 John's point is that > there is a tension between these various rights.=C2=A0 Similarly, Section > 3.2.4 references BCP72 and talks about a "Right to security", but we > haven't had a real discussion of what that means. >=20 > One other comment: >=20 > The document really needs a scrub on terminology.=C2=A0 For instance, > Section 3.2.13 talks about reliability and degradation, when the > example really discusses downgrade attacks.=C2=A0 The second example (TCP > ACKs) is not well connected to the point. >=20 > Eliot _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing > list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20 > hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_1415836_1790670834.1529820492934 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stephen

"That's not the problem I was describing.= "

MP> We seem to be on the same wavelength, but talking about dif= ferent contexts of anonymity; exactly why we need to be clear about termino= logy!

"I didn't think that draft had approached the right
balance= ."

MP> Perhaps it has not reached the right balance, but I think = it is in this draft rather than the guidelines that anonymity should be add= ressed.

"(Put another way - there
is no danger whatsoever that a = rogue-HR-review would be taken
seriously if it made technically stupid r= ecommendations or claimed
that technically necessary things "MUST NOT" b= e done. IMO, given
that isn't a danger, discussion of it as a danger is = moot.)"

MP> Here we agree, BUT any HR review should be at least a= dressing the issues and justifying why certain things are 'technically nece= ssary' and should take priority over a HR issue. And by 'technically necess= ary', I do not mean 'just because we have always done it that way', or 'we = are too lazy to try other methods', or any of the other BS used by eg. ICAN= N / Krebs / trademark owners in the current WHOIS GDPR situation.

Be= st regards
Mark P.

=20
=20
On Wednesday, June 13, 2018, 11:58:02 AM GMT+11, Stephe= n Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:



Hiya,

On 13/06/18 01:19, Mark Perkins wrote:
> Stephen
>
> On termi= nology, it was me who first used the term "anonymity' in this
> discussion. It was a logical leap (without explanation) from John= s
> connecting attribution to legal redress. Pseudonym= ity has not much
> impact on legal redress unless it c= an be connected to a real human;
> if it cannot be so = connected, the human remain anonymous...

That's not the problem I was describing. The problem I was trying to
get at is that anonymity is almost impossible, *technically*= . For me,
that does not mean we ought give up and aim for= a fully identified
network, rather the opposite - I figu= re we ought be figuring out how
to make less easily ident= ifiable networking more usable, both for
people using net= work services and for people managing networks. (That
lat= ter set of folks may currently disagree with me that the less they
have access to superfluous data related to people using their ser= vices,
the better off they are as administrators - but if= so, they're wrong;-)

>
> I agree with your points regarding clarity, something the "A= nonymity,
> Human Rights and Internet Protocols" draft= deals with.

Last I checked, I didn't = think that draft had approached the right
balance. But I = may be mis-remembering.

>
> However, I disagree with your view that the "need to conside= r the
> ability to run networks that are constantly un= der attack" renders
> this moot. Attribution (in terms= of legal redress) is NOT necessary
> for this purpose= ...

The "this" there isn't the same th= ing, and in any case I said "most
of this" - meaning "thi= s" =3D=3D "the argument." I agree that strongly
attributa= ble networking does not need to be ubiquitous to counter
= attacks. However, I think it's likely true that defenders need in
some cases to be able to re-identify attackers (at least to thelevel of categorising attack vs. kosher traffic) to mount = effective
defenses, e.g. against (D)DoS. I figure it's th= at latter that makes
discussion of John's stated concerns= moot. (Put another way - there
is no danger whatsoever t= hat a rogue-HR-review would be taken
seriously if it made= technically stupid recommendations or claimed
that techn= ically necessary things "MUST NOT" be done. IMO, given
th= at isn't a danger, discussion of it as a danger is moot.)

Cheers,
<= br clear=3D"none">S.


>
> Eliot
>
> The draft does not use the UDHR as a basis. It refers to the UDHR,=
> the ICCPR and other treaties, but only cites exampl= es from the UDHR.
> These examples are all found in th= e ICCPR excepting:
>
> 'appropri= ate social and international order', which is the purpose of
> the treaties;
>
> 'part= icipation in cultural life...' which is dealt with in another
> treaty - the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultu= ral
> Rights.
>
> I totally agree that there is a tension between these various rights= ,
> something recognised by the various enforcement &a= mp; monitoring bodies
> of the treaties. This why I pr= efer to refer to the treaties rather
> than the UDHR, = it enables reference to General Comments and agreed
> = analyses of the treaties and the tensions between the rights
> contained in them, something the UDHR does not.
= >
> Perhaps we should look at whether our examples= should come from the
> Treaties rather than the UDHR.= The majority of countries are
> signatories to the IC= CPR and other relevant treaties, while the UDHR
> is o= nly by default due to countries UN membership.
>
> As to 'a scrub on terminology', I totally agree; have at= tempted to
> aid in proof-reading and polishing myself= , but is clearly not
> finished.
>= ;
> In fact, your reference to 3.2.4 and Right to Sec= urity illustrates
> this point as it seems to conflate= / confuse network security with
> the 'Right to secur= ity' with not explanation...
>
>= Regards Mark P.
>
>
>
> On Monday, June 11, 2018, 9:34:06 PM= GMT+11, Eliot Lear
> <lear=3D40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
&= gt;
>
>
>=
>
> On 11.06.18 01:01, Mark Pe= rkins wrote:
>
>
> Hi John
>
> You are cor= rect regarding the Universal Declaration, which is only
&= gt; 'declaratory'. I was referring to the signed treaty - the
> International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - and its> enforcement mechanisms.
>
> This draft itself uses the UDHR as a basis.  John's p= oint is that
> there is a tension between these variou= s rights.  Similarly, Section
> 3.2.4 references = BCP72 and talks about a "Right to security", but we
> = haven't had a real discussion of what that means.
> > One other comment:
>
> The document really needs a scrub on terminology.  For = instance,
> Section 3.2.13 talks about reliability and= degradation, when the
> example really discusses down= grade attacks.  The second example (TCP
> ACKs) i= s not well connected to the point.
>
> Eliot _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing> list hrpc@irtf.org https://w= ww.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf= .org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>
_____________________________________= __________
hrpc mailing list
hr= pc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman= /listinfo/hrpc
------=_Part_1415836_1790670834.1529820492934-- From nobody Fri Jun 29 00:34:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF5B130E09 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 00:34:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q5hNNaEVyol5 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 00:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81151127AC2 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 00:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fYnvU-00051f-Fu; Fri, 29 Jun 2018 09:34:40 +0200 To: pitg@lists.mayfirst.org, hrpc@irtf.org, gaia@ietfa.amsl.com From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAHNJU1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QG1heWZpcnN0Lm9yZz7CwJgEEwECAEICGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo 9WUFCRAV234ACgkQDDKicb08x4DklAf+ODKRmP6C2MnBz6vL8N8l3vZJUqoRcYXTn3uTpT05 Wou87ZIZ/P/OV2/uOMKkczLQQydj5S8PxbLTeg+U5f/63hdy99ON+K2b4izg7Qasdl1SqXTH q1pmhbrcbLbVKDJ345fdEg7RuMnv4gd3EaT/yQa99zHy8JHaBKaPEUQAa65HTt2Sy2c6L6BA aMZx1TOZ9/cZ7L1gJyytJbEyvg/JLOatJEI4rewUWU2TMSGJijwjAUBagwDPWyxpz+vXdKsD tqRTpY4xvXaeUQo0QXf0c5j1Gcglzv7ywZcyz1MGD1aLS9/CqeB3I4EMbvH/33LS3jNkfKbV XOTSjmo7l22CNc7ATQRMdE1nAQgA4mpP2LjFuAW2li9FPbDYOMzt0MtThXsnvHyY0fDv8FlU qnKgPrMY80VHntnxwqepFS3ncunVX4ipq+fadta+LHpTnbJSmlphBrc9qGJxqcjwf4yo35Xh OXCJFwnaoAwIX237lXRe4Xh6X4VMuJt8jiZdvgpbk/whvQH2grcq8KjCcy1iuL5pBl8ZwYG/ dphitFhQdqEcnc/krIqG4KQgKiUi3K/GR0OeEmw/cscWD7/CLEo7eHiaGQhSOyDQbM+Iu2o/ 6uMXMUPsYlMMqgmVL68zMacO3PE17jx0rQ8oZ7CpBY8YZWOWrzXrtFT8JO9guuCPsvd4KT6y 97y9LRJlPQARAQABwsB8BBgBAgAmAhsMFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo9WYF CRAV238ACgkQDDKicb08x4DU4QgAmlyBlFhfU0jpkbyD3HQ+3CJqWdBT422pVIrj3qNT2ehy fWO66Muidmd4Y279uV3p3TQEJOQvnV7FVAC9+bI7AdBy00BAjHgJ5eSQZxKTXUoeeBAsTZHN /HaHewjYWHMvCuuzir/Wt3A6Cehh8gp9I/Vg+oL3dTldVqqgZLgnA83bT/R8fI/e85LDlpdx KJ0+uy/grg3AbH7LUUrmMIC2iO8mQWYuNlizsUZLFvJhCAU2c5l8B5mv2BoWFhL+l7mmNcdF bwBFXon7Ea1jkCnbWVxtXkPYkcuWuMSTJswn9HhZVJWjUonKqUZKAb9PxRzC9crZ+X14tQT3 iJt2a4ZM4w== Message-ID: <6251fd45-da0e-4143-8381-769f43507faa@article19.org> Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 10:34:36 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: e462de357cb394d64966911c06262bc8 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Handy schedule, please add X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 07:34:49 -0000 Hi folks, Below is a handy schedule with info that I've put together of events that might be of interest to engaged or potentially engaged folks at the IETF in Montreal. Happy if you'd like to add to the schedule, which can then be circulated to folks you might be reaching out to about participation in IETF 102: 14-20 July | IETF 102 | Fairmont The Queen Elizabeth * Register here: https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/register 14-15 July @ 9:00-22:00 | IETF Hackathon | Room TBD * Register here: https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf102/hackathonregistration.py * Projects from PITG include: HTTP error code 451, human rights review of QUIC, MLS implementation see: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/102hackathon 16 July @ 18:00-20:00 | PITG meeting | Code lounge 16 July @ 20:00-22:00 | PITG dinner | Bar Furco * Please RSVP to mallory@article19.org 17 July @ 15:50-18:20 | GAIA | Room Viger * Agenda will be here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/agenda-102-gaia-00 19 July @ 15:50-17:50 | HRPC | Room Duluth * Agenda will be here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/agenda-102-hrpc-00 -- Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780