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([2600:8801:d004:600:89b5:530a:dfd0:3be9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u184-v6sm21035349pgd.46.2018.09.01.22.30.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 01 Sep 2018 22:30:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <361F8CF4-82C9-45B1-A212-03434D8960C5@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DD71B3A9-5045-4E74-B67E-2A92EE934A91"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 22:30:31 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Nalini Elkins , "hrpc@irtf.org" To: "Salz, Rich" References: <20180831134519.rtc6fsbl5n3csi2l@nic.fr> <382812190.1625184.1535740784486@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Lerna, and the use of software for good and bad X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2018 05:30:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DD71B3A9-5045-4E74-B67E-2A92EE934A91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Aug 31, 2018, at 11:50 AM, Salz, Rich = wrote: >=20 > I suggest you contact the ombudsteam. That would be IETF, right? Hrpc is IRTF... = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an = interesting comment on projected traffic volume... --Apple-Mail=_DD71B3A9-5045-4E74-B67E-2A92EE934A91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAluLdXcACgkQEhdRnd2G P+ChQg/+IQBOaTvYQXuB+hfkFod7PNRpHI1c4Y2/H25T8/Y1aIJCHYN9Zv7uOPcF 1711+Cl35qtdZ6pgxeC9OUh6GFURgGvkM1AhPIBXBxxuIQFqcpsG3TYh44bu5mVz cTL5yXNIBLz1GU5zpDhPGjXf0U8LX47b8+T2RHvToE2Ffttd3WOKA6Dz0Jk4Oqz2 Wd7U9jTSAOKekh184gwZ8BYNUisfMfFgxuLDF4wzFX4SWeUZUdW2w5aiQKTAyDVC IF8SQPk0lPZW/2JEhsI5ssyq32ogjDlOzFoLauG63pencAVRnOPntnm8XPDTZdSz 6j6X9qSiUttjt+pB01NtIprH4ABnYf4+dUbz9iYLHm6hSKnvlJ/tm+GKKLh6HZ6K i99u0EkWoA6OgZtKWhDoNEtJuacg4+YjwTz+rDSpzXrG2ywC7g58KMT+3r/qMLA/ Xbqe2Vo7/bBJ1vZQ9zpGh5NJhEeo90FELbBkrhxqOcK6jtOHjq5XS8fCfDrK15TC vQalEYNyPyjdYpWVpI2QV4vXp7DROa/FXEfbc50cL6OdusdiRK9nXVxdLu+LYpsJ /hWO/zj9Pw6UTJ4m0ih5lKxkLOXC2arEoZtCOZnPPnwV9Vl4eIuALSG/mnQI3vWX I++2SCvBKjHEVWO78rBQ9z5fv/GZoUSpkHLo8p//saqH9Nxvsq8= =QSkE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_DD71B3A9-5045-4E74-B67E-2A92EE934A91-- From nobody Tue Sep 4 10:36:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6003130F93 for ; 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Tue, 04 Sep 2018 10:36:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:2288:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Sep 2018 10:36:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <361F8CF4-82C9-45B1-A212-03434D8960C5@gmail.com> References: <20180831134519.rtc6fsbl5n3csi2l@nic.fr> <382812190.1625184.1535740784486@mail.yahoo.com> <361F8CF4-82C9-45B1-A212-03434D8960C5@gmail.com> From: Allison Mankin Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 13:36:47 -0400 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "hrpc@irtf.org" , Nalini Elkins , Ombudsteam Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b060c05750f1a78" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Lerna, and the use of software for good and bad X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2018 17:36:54 -0000 --0000000000003b060c05750f1a78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Wearing my ombudteam hat now: the IRTF has full access to ombudsteam, and it has used this in practice (saying no more). It may be that (as often has been the case), the documents say IETF and not IETF et al, but IRTF is a community in the IETF community (and now formally in the IETF LLC)... ombudsteam@ietf.org if anyone needs to contact us. Allison On 2 September 2018 at 01:30, Fred Baker wrote: > > > > On Aug 31, 2018, at 11:50 AM, Salz, Rich ietf.org> wrote: > > > > I suggest you contact the ombudsteam. > > That would be IETF, right? Hrpc is IRTF... > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------------- > The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an > interesting comment on projected traffic volume... > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > --0000000000003b060c05750f1a78 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Wearing my ombudteam hat = now:=C2=A0 the IRTF has full access to ombudsteam, and it has used this in = practice (saying no more).=C2=A0 It may be that (as often has been the case= ),
the documents say IETF and not IETF et al, but IRTF is a communi= ty in the IETF community (and now formally in the IETF LLC)...
=
ombudsteam@ietf.org= if anyone needs to contact us.

Allison

On 2 September 2= 018 at 01:30, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> w= rote:


> On Aug 31, 2018, at 11:50 AM, Salz, Rich <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrot= e:
>
> I suggest you contact the ombudsteam.

That would be IETF, right? Hrpc is IRTF...

-----------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------
The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is an int= eresting comment on projected traffic volume...


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--0000000000003b060c05750f1a78-- From nobody Tue Sep 4 10:37:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2B3130F70 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2018 10:37:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NvLCMBM7iPG7 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2018 10:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE8BE126DBF for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2018 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id 7-v6so2019510pgf.2 for ; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4F50BCAmNArQGJnKl/mkvRuVTTK8o2gIoalu2nYPWEU=; b=JB3vN57QXP4CQ3UdUnk5cMC2leprBVzZH0Bu7o+9+21qCIwLANV52bfhGZoXEUQEqb 6q4sNfN2qJBlxk2rAZD0TF8ac0FK43DmzWE7Hnt/rZO07p0dmRxbuQBXRCrhrNz5AsAj Fqw7VVxGof7x9s/0fVeq4eCa6EkqfQLtT1rCDz460QqG+gOG650lsUr3TgJlQ4tb4FXS yFX4gMhbKAT/ufn+jCqHDbvCRD/OUTn/0L8WT4wlzqOtN7dDE3DHZbMfsH87KDWE+OBx AzLjOwBOnvduxUrTLiKIvi86cdgSTj9KSK6JaEuSbkkuwXGnHCly4gzmOyDbTUFj0HkP +IVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4F50BCAmNArQGJnKl/mkvRuVTTK8o2gIoalu2nYPWEU=; b=LxMme3CtKw3egGzel/XiT4hX/9eZEqJAgXsBYWK+vXEUU2GXO/StSs046f+7nB1bbB CRD2s7QSg32EmTT2TcxEQfrrX1w1tmXPFQL4WzN81WKLr8HWgr6aukn6ekr/8du+TVZk wxc+aGYupBlqNSKzroHx0lBl6zB3N5DAlCTj8ru7w2WU/mF3MquKxco1LP+9INQIiivm kC8FchrELeHRmJIeB87+/tR5EbrXn4KXGr6cAvgERPctEBCHUOIZnnYYy7UnQc1GnfuK TOq7WZ+xw+G/oYotnI9dYjlVAfo7mUkZQmkvVOTB25mM3LJdlmB13OQCgVKz1a6prM/l LYyg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51Dk7DuvPiBAYG1tnMp6kXeIj7OWuXXsUMeO9/4Ih+WYq5VexaZy 3Or/HTiRY84CjeYNqtxZifhvWmoUDA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0Vdbd1ScjqhGW8dvUknwr6sI9OKWPCTjenV6UUpQsjFVHF4KZMzFHoPpR0GaF2XUx1DXv2exiQQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:991a:: with SMTP id d26-v6mr12826792pge.159.1536082641276; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.126] (216-67-116-106-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.116.106]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o20-v6sm61064688pfj.35.2018.09.04.10.37.20 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Sep 2018 10:37:20 -0700 (PDT) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20180831134519.rtc6fsbl5n3csi2l@nic.fr> <382812190.1625184.1535740784486@mail.yahoo.com> <361F8CF4-82C9-45B1-A212-03434D8960C5@gmail.com> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: <30bcfa19-d1e1-d8a7-2937-00aa64815710@nomountain.net> Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 09:37:19 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <361F8CF4-82C9-45B1-A212-03434D8960C5@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Lerna, and the use of software for good and bad X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2018 17:37:23 -0000 On 9/1/18 9:30 PM, Fred Baker wrote: >> On Aug 31, 2018, at 11:50 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >> I suggest you contact the ombudsteam. > That would be IETF, right? Hrpc is IRTF... Apparently the Ombudsteam has handled issues in the IRTF in the past, and they consider URTF research groups within their purview. Melinda -- Software longa, hardware brevis PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F From nobody Tue Sep 4 19:00:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27EF1128CFD for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2018 19:00:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CeJxq6LgyrKV for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2018 19:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x530.google.com (mail-ed1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB576130DD7 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2018 19:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id a20-v6so4786949edd.4 for ; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 19:00:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=fnKr8RZQf4M90tZD4i7LVpCYzPQ5c+AFT8GLY7eOIbM=; b=fcIuAiHptalwEmgVgNq7xRfoSK2mhuMeFL23ChEJWk+oE8slddgYeKmjuOz2QMoTTN B4hm05G982btrdlN3jdJn6hZP/+zApCqkuLQrQ3/xBsrV21DK7htofn0rlAhYu9Y57Vu iwdr4LfnQziU5d5202SfSil97YLHQ5o3f/jSTB1XB7feikOkwKZpj7T9UTSExR2UYufL Gz5+zBhIRgQDQbD4oNGzHeQVVFCvjI5F9yUKm+F2lQTc3fHiKkigIZ4M29nz6+n9gK+N RABkVDR92lXSI/Kf5EKvFDw7Bz7Ndh/5+nBUJAn+fO38DuxAKGw/236pOFG9Y9eHD85M rb0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=fnKr8RZQf4M90tZD4i7LVpCYzPQ5c+AFT8GLY7eOIbM=; b=oxpfNSzwPjIiSuR8QGcugM56BtU/X5XfCwfPFESpMrtfCHXEzpE9IJf23Y6YHfWC5i PrapZ5Cm8Btn/eajq+Xn5AQTYjUdqLzwAkY8h4fdjJeVi9LRtfmQBU4xnrnojEKk/UTE j0MLJ6FpJ4UtP+0az1TKXcGVzyvxfHFbOdi7kDHPovTRvMQqmO571C4ZPcbWakNxpH+x 2Vs53lT/rSWR2V93NssJSiAlDRFOBjCS1Mo+A0mYpXXcGBXSYjWMXf/y9VOz9VIHP0kF M0v4bCYSsUhJC6i5SxXxf3vut7UyT5vFFfM0ykliYTmx6OvM47zUwOXlzgfbXT6CWylg EpEg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BGDJI6foqewsgNzFmJQQXIzizjTuYhwn5zxW4u03aNAJKLpTbE 8FE7QaSgUjjAHcpoeBLuBuU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdYFGbdX/npE6EZIwL8tlIG269lsBO20O0MsFnhdS5wh/XClJyNi2mbPNSrfhujFduUXY2l1hQ== X-Received: by 2002:a50:8fe6:: with SMTP id y93-v6mr39758837edy.290.1536112848409; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 19:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::1065? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::1065]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m52-v6sm447238edd.46.2018.09.04.19.00.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Sep 2018 19:00:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <0DDC6D3B-9376-4EFB-9B25-F44E1A45938F@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D6DACB60-D20E-44D7-B864-03CAB06D1D31"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 19:00:43 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "hrpc@irtf.org" , Nalini Elkins , Ombudsteam To: Allison Mankin References: <20180831134519.rtc6fsbl5n3csi2l@nic.fr> <382812190.1625184.1535740784486@mail.yahoo.com> <361F8CF4-82C9-45B1-A212-03434D8960C5@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Lerna, and the use of software for good and bad X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 02:00:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D6DACB60-D20E-44D7-B864-03CAB06D1D31 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii So be it. > On Sep 4, 2018, at 10:36 AM, Allison Mankin = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Wearing my ombudteam hat now: the IRTF has full access to ombudsteam, = and it has used this in practice (saying no more). It may be that (as = often has been the case), > the documents say IETF and not IETF et al, but IRTF is a community in = the IETF community (and now formally in the IETF LLC)... >=20 > ombudsteam@ietf.org if anyone needs to contact us. >=20 > Allison >=20 > On 2 September 2018 at 01:30, Fred Baker = wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On Aug 31, 2018, at 11:50 AM, Salz, Rich = wrote: > > > > I suggest you contact the ombudsteam. >=20 > That would be IETF, right? Hrpc is IRTF... >=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > The fact that there is a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven is = an interesting comment on projected traffic volume... >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 >=20 = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. Sun Tzu --Apple-Mail=_D6DACB60-D20E-44D7-B864-03CAB06D1D31 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAluPOMsACgkQEhdRnd2G P+CjOA/9Gv1+pLCDqAMOzYKy5Id5s1iVNNqon6qjIoIDj2pf/Z3n7peYkgkJWsON s2v5Jgn7UeBZyL7ahPnJvhmLRl3MCpBIOIFr+Af+ePLpwayfoMuM2752mZgEqjaE 7I+55QeUzpi95gHLQ74n4QkU9dl9z6Tp7mYh2javcS5HihG10HSTDYjZkzb6b3qj 91ARLA6W40I3wYMcm6FRCec/LuopIoGbMEpl5XI3jKKoQ1ZHbNim2EaH2C/mv7A3 qxheF2S3fAV07jzxLBMmzG1wRjubBbBELbyNBZwsLq+wE/BUI3QT4TWEkEhqCcwV tlCacOmPljjWKlhbzatNaUjtUN6Yl9jb/Y2GlVZ4DT5/NCs9uqmM1OcPzyajgC3A xtizKG5jVDUx+2p84w44xw8gUB16K2jFr4Ncqj4lR8xdXDxtDdmV1qyuODaC8vX/ tZmEjU1Bjhh61tqWX8J5hNyI6i7J5tI/vKzW+c70moWaUyqDra1HNexjbknV2O7d +u8D0gR8lAl7dNUjvYh2dpOQwqkoNa2eBfvWMXfIKNXgLkx8pdsV4f5PmGBZEVpY H4QkiBZgbUNy/3UZerv3oCybYZxFquxKnrAX/vtR7tF7gO4xMOR2PyB8kvYfE+Ds pNUz9TVbVYMJFDh8ZwnQFtHRfjcOwDhR38FmpYbp1U3H60vdb14= =a85s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D6DACB60-D20E-44D7-B864-03CAB06D1D31-- From nobody Wed Sep 5 01:28:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8B5130E0A; Wed, 5 Sep 2018 01:27:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.83.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <153613607975.19664.14995186082503490289@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 01:27:59 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 08:28:00 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations RG of the IRTF. Title : Notes on networking standards and politics Authors : Niels ten Oever Amelia Andersdotter Filename : draft-irtf-hrpc-political-00.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2018-09-05 Abstract: The IETF cannot ordain which standards or protocols are to be used on network, but the standards developing process in the IETF has a normative effect. Among other things the standardisation work at the IETF has implications on what is perceived as technologically possible and useful where networking technologies are being deployed, and its standards output reflect was is considered by the technical community as feasible and good practice. Because it mediates many aspects of modern life, and therefore contributes to the ordering of societies and communities, the consideration of the politics and (potential) impact of protocols should be part of the standardization and development process. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-political/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-political-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-political-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Sep 5 01:59:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D75130E04; Wed, 5 Sep 2018 01:59:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.83.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <153613799067.19741.8551903460519392318@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 01:59:50 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-association-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 08:59:51 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations RG of the IRTF. Title : Freedom of Association on the Internet Authors : Niels ten Oever Gisela Perez de Acha Filename : draft-irtf-hrpc-association-00.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2018-09-05 Abstract: This document scopes the relation between Internet protocols and the right to freedom of assembly and association. Increasingly, the Internet mediates our lives, our relationships and our ability to exercise our human rights. As a forum, the Internet provides a global public space even though it is built predominantly on private infrastructure. Since Internet protocols play a central role in the management, development and use of the Internet, the relation between protocols and the aforementioned rights should be documented and any adverse impacts of this relation should be mitigated. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-association/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-association-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-association-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Sep 5 11:12:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 395BE130E13 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2018 11:12:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0sO-T6nxieFL for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2018 11:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22c.google.com (mail-qt0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 323F1130DE2 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2018 11:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id h4-v6so9197404qtj.7 for ; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 11:12:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=ZDDc8itXkwb/IfITzsamrGxk8U+0/Y7un7G/fPxPAK8=; b=uUwG9vE8gzRXp3w1y5YH3iGjVz6COEUY6wabe8S3Zyz5UGhFcDwgbUnvE1sCt7QgMg 7IKFnOmBWJiKnqlUnJelQ4mIbqi3vuTOEMAPqUKG93V/h2CdOkYEJch2w805LMGwpZ0f brjD090BLn6whg7A7QPlndaB30OtyxzKOyVyPzYrrKGUMG5heaM0liBUpd164Dhugf5R JKHlQkbM1c0r0hFIAvnshpibWF24VtTh2UnGJXF3iRW6nFkkCUfA44ggunOeFtG/GB/Z byJb9v9PBurGl5u7S0snvgs/q+kMafbSWo7LuWZeiIRT+V0OKznBmEBTmhUKZG5hKbs6 rq5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=ZDDc8itXkwb/IfITzsamrGxk8U+0/Y7un7G/fPxPAK8=; b=Jvrv1igxw3gOcoJ9c8wa8pKaZLWYpI6FfZNuLnflH56wUxg70CBufl4mrsXOc6a369 qKlizLuLoRnevfLp83t2CHHTYaxkGsvxGlpTKwvgahne0rNdfIcXFEMaQSpphp9jgCrJ ElpAVC4/Zy4OxW08tiss31azX+LXpjWwQ+cbRcV+usAiR5RbNAZbjlGsx3dHSHQpGzM9 E+G2BgVa2VU2T/JS5mst635uqzKmhTSuwlL8XLLV371r4Gbi2KGuCOV9M0j0P/Mcd3Zc P8SZCX7w3+D1TA9NXZ8S7l22vBqLNGAHy07VKgvOJS5wFNwOCt7dqd0Vzt8sBepnNwXm iu6w== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51CEZbc6Cb9hOS0rqA22KU3ZtvSWZmNBQeGAL4kZvUlRVY2CvbYq 1urHa1oJJmr8/sw3qiGQCoo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdYKZIqhXFrcTKMXuQwbbTWQLoNHzy//UzFhNKnB4vkYQT54Gtk9TMK0k1tOvJUq5ju+IyAk/Q== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:392e:: with SMTP id s43-v6mr34858017qtb.68.1536171160123; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 11:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-226-172.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.226.172]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d143-v6sm1350516qka.31.2018.09.05.11.12.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Sep 2018 11:12:39 -0700 (PDT) To: hrpc@irtf.org, internet-drafts@ietf.org, i-d-announce@ietf.org References: <153613799067.19741.8551903460519392318@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <2e72cbbd-227f-f291-df46-860729c5e6ae@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 14:12:38 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <153613799067.19741.8551903460519392318@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Actions X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 18:12:43 -0000 It's nice to see the updates to the two drafts, political and association.=C2=A0 There are substantive improvements.=C2=A0 There are ad= ditional steps for improvements that could improve further.=C2=A0 The citations ar= e pretty much to self-similar secondary sources, and the material comes across as a political group lobbying effort, but the drafts are getting a little better. The political ID is still rather DARPA Internet/IETF centric in a world of copious internets and associated industry standards venues of many flavours that have existed and evolved over long historical/technical arcs.=C2=A0 Standards and politics have always existed.=C2=A0 It's part o= f the game everywhere.=C2=A0 There are several million papers, books, and gradu= ate thesis out there. =C2=A0 The internet/institutional flavour you tend to f= avor in the draft only emerged in the late 90s and prior to that was highly controlled by U.S.G. agencies on many levels.=C2=A0 The public internatio= nal law for global communication is completely ignored, and the draft is also really "North Atlantic" centric.=C2=A0 The fundamental transition no= w underway to virtual instantiations is omitted.=C2=A0 All of this history,= diversity, and the fundamental transition from private to public are simply ignored.=C2=A0 Maybe these dimensions could be treated going forwa= rd. The association ID is also improved, although largely subject to the same inadequacies as the political ID.=C2=A0 An existential query - if a network doesn't use IP (presumably you mean the IETF's version of IP), is it an internet?=C2=A0 And, how does one control those implementations among a very large number of networks?=C2=A0 Or do you imply the existenc= e of the CAIDA IPv4 topology as the basis for your treatment?=C2=A0 See http://www.caida.org/research/topology/as_core_network/2017/ The association ID seems a bit disingenuous in the abstract where you wax poetic about human rights and finally fess up in the introduction that you are only treating two human rights - freedom of assembly and association - to the exclusion of all other human rights.=C2=A0 This is O= K, but inquiring minds would ask how in the real world, one could possibly focus on only these two human rights, when they are inherently in tension with many others.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Those two rights may be great= , for example, for white supremacist groups,=C2=A0 but what about the collateral damage = to other human rights such as mitigation of racism and xenophobia? Even within the rights compartmentalization of only freedom of assembly and association, there is no treatment of how IETF protocols could be used to undermine those rights.=C2=A0 For example, last year, IETF protoc= ols were allegedly used by hostile actors to assist white supremacist to mount attacks on those assembling and associating in Charlottesville, Virginia, to protest racism.=C2=A0 More balance and "red teaming" would b= e great additions to future evolution of the draft. --t From nobody Fri Sep 7 03:08:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E10130DE5; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 03:08:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N1N0i9ENN14y; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US-large X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: ff8282cba176f16c0cd93a6055202d23 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-04 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:08:24 -0000 Dear all, As part of efforts in the Human Rights Protocol Considerations (HRPC) group, I have reviewed the human rights considerations (RFC 8280) in IPWAVE Problem Statement. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/ The below text has been sent to the author of the document on August 28. I'm now hoping for input from the larger community. best regards, Amelia # Summary =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I understand that the draft contains a satisfactory treatment of the human rights concerns listen in Section 6.2.1 (Connectivity), 6.2.3 (Content agnosticism), 6.2.8 (Heterogeneity support), Section 6.2.14 (Reliability), Section 6.2.16 (Integrity), Section 6.2.17 (Authenticity) and 6.2.18 (Adaptability) of RFC8280. I have also traced some of the dependencies of the draft on less accessible standards in accordance with Section 6.2.7 (Open Standards) in RFC8280. I have suggested improvements with respect to human rights concerns listed in Sections 6.2.2 (Privacy), 6.2.4 (Security), 6.2.6 (Censorship Resistenace), 6.2.9 (Anonymity), 6.2.10 (Pseudonymity), 6.2.13 (Decentralization), 6.2.15 (Confidentiality) and 6.2.19 (Outcome transparency) in RFC8280. I finally make two suggestions related to Sections 6.2.5 (Internationalization), 6.2.11 (Accessibility) and 6.2.12 (Localization) in RFC8280. # Topical human rights review =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ## Part 1: Privacy, decentralization, transparency ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This part reviews IPWAVE Problem Statement draft from the perspectives of Sections 6.2.2 (Privacy), 6.2.4 (Security), 6.2.6 (Censorship Resistenace), 6.2.9 (Anonymity), 6.2.10 (Pseudonymity), 6.2.13 (Decentralization), 6.2.15 (Confidentiality) and 6.2.19 (Outcome transparency) in RFC8280. In Section 4.1.7 Current Protocols for Vehicular Networking: Security and Privacy, the focus is only on encryption and certificate exchanges. I believe this can be complemented by raising topics that have been prevalent in vehicular communications for a large number of years. Notably data minimization and geolocalisation threats (see e.g. RFC6973, section 6.1: Data minimization). It is generally recognised that vehicular communications face particular security and privacy challenges, with the driver of the connected vehicle perhaps being obliged by law to disseminate specified, and verifiably accurate, data. This makes the driver unable to deploy common privacy strategies, such as obfuscation, and calls for extra careful consideration of durable connections (such as connections that last over pseudonym changes, thereby opening new privacy attack vectors). Pseudonym changes are therefore proposed as alternative privacy risk mitigations. In Section 5.3, there is focus on integrity (RFC8280, Section 6.2.16) and authenticity (RFC8280, Section 6.2.17), where the privacy and security complications arising from vehicular networks are, I insist, broader in scope. It is not clear that the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) would not be used to track a vehicle or its driver against his or her wishes, even if the MAC address and IP address are randomized or re-addressed. Of particular importance are those situations where drivers are not legally alloId to discontinue a particular connection (see also RFC6973, Section 6.2: User Control or RFC8280, Section 6.2.6: Censorship Resistance and Section 6.2.15: Confidentiality). I see a need for at least reflection on the centralized properties of authentication and certificate schemes in Section 5.3 (see e.g. RFC8280, Section 6.2.13: Decentralization). Depending on which agent is ultimately endoId with the responsibility of issuing certificates for security purposes, there may be large downstream market effects on drivers and the service providers available for drivers to choose. In fact, this is a central issue in drivers' associations concerns with vehicular communications and, in general, telematics[2]. Both of these considerations call into question whether the "same" network should be used for all use-cases listed in Section 3 of the Problem Statement. It may be, for instance, that pseudonym self-issuance should be considered for some use-cases, but not for others. An overview of pseudonym issuance strategies is found in [3]. Finally, there has been some attention in literature to the use of OBU caching as a way of minimizing contacts with RSU[4], or including options to collect information from other near-by vehicles instead of from the RSU when a querying need arises. IPWAVE may want to delve further into the topic of how this might work in an ad hoc 802.11 network and whether IPWAVE gives options for solutions that are not as well present in other technologies. ## Part 2: Internationalization and accessibility ------------------------------------------------------------------ This part reviews IPWAVE Problem Statement draft from the perspectives of Sections 6.2.5 (Internationalization), 6.2.11 (Accessibility) and 6.2.12 (Localization) in RFC8280. These sections deal with ways in which affected parties can interact effortlessly with resulting specifications.= The IPWAVE Problem Statement draft any obvious efforts to address the issues raised in those sections of RFC8280. That said, accessibility as in Sections 6.2.11 or 6.2.12 may require the cooperation of user interface designers and higher layers. In the context of internationalization and localization, I note that references to regulatory frameworks that put natural boundaries on the scope of the projects proposed within the Problem Statement are limited to North America and Europe. It is not clear whether those geographical regions that use different alphabets or logographs have a greater interest in internationalization and localization, than those geographical regions that predominantly rely on the latin alphabet. This could be clarified. In the context of privacy options discussed above, it is the case that the standards developed in IPWAVE are more likely to be consumed by implementers and user interface designers at higher layers than by drivers of vehicles. In the interest of accessibility and localization, clarity with respect to privacy-, user control- or security-enhancing features for the implementers is paramount to ensure that these features do not end up obscured. ## Part 3: Open standards -------------------------------------- This part reviews IPWAVE Problem Statement draft from the perspective of Section 6.2.7 (Open Standards) in RFC8280. It may be noted that the IETF as such makes open standards and maintains openness throughout the standard developments deliberations. Many of the standards referenced in Problem Statement are not open. IEEE 1609 and IEEE 802.11-OCB may require subscriptions for researchers and implementers to accesss for some time after the completion of a standardisation project, while ISO standards are always closed to the public, in the sense that they sell access to their standards. ETSI and 3GPP standards become accessible to the public only upon their conclusion= =2E # Recommendations ----------------------------- 1. In our literature review, I found one proposal to use Multipath TCP to enable lasting connections in spite of re-addressing[1]. This study could be tentatively inserted in Section 4.1.7. Reference [3] should be added to section 5.3 together with observations made above. Similarly section 5.3 could cover reference [4]. 2. Due consideration should be given to the fact that a lasting connection risks defeating some of the purposes of pseudonym randomization/re-issuance, since the lasting connection would then in and of itself become a way to track the vehicle. The Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) risks defeating the purpose of re-addressing or pseudonym handling, if it is used as an authentication mechanism. Section 4.2.4 Pseudonym Handling or Section 5.3 could raise this issue. Of particular importance for a vehicle owner or driver will be whether these durable connections are mandatory to enable under any legislation. It could be considered whether different certificate issuance strategies can be deployed for different types of connections. 3. I believe an additional definition is needed for the word "pseudonym", in order to clarify that by this word the document means the same thing as is meant by MAC/Layer-2 Randomization in P802.11aq, the readdressing feature described in IEEE 1609.4-2016, or the temporary identifiers referenced in ETSI TS 102 941. 4. IPWAVE should make it clear it intends that privacy-friendly options should be made explicit to implementers in the developed standards. 5. The working group may consider whether to undertake greater internationalization efforts inside the group, or request it from other working groups, bearing in mind that some of the geographical regions not covered by the regulatory review may consider this a perk. [1] S. Han, H. Kim and Y. Park, "Overcoming IP communication breakdown upon pseudonym changes in the IEEE WAVE," 2017 IEEE Vehicular Networking Conference (VNC), Torino, 2017, pp. 183-186. doi: 10.1109/VNC.2017.8275622 URL: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org.ludwig.lub.lu.se/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=3D&arnumbe= r=3D8275622&isnumber=3D8275590 [2] FIA, http://mycarmydata.eu [3] J. Petit, F. Schaub, M. Feiri and F. Kargl, "Pseudonym Schemes in Vehicular Networks: A Survey," in IEEE Communications Surveys & Tutorials, vol. 17, no. 1, pp. 228-255, Firstquarter 2015. doi: 10.1109/COMST.2014.2345420 URL: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org.ludwig.lub.lu.se/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=3D&arnumbe= r=3D6873216&isnumber=3D7061782 [4] B. Liu, W. Zhou, T. Zhu, L. Gao, T. H. Luan and H. Zhou, "Silence is Golden: Enhancing Privacy of Location-Based Services by Content Broadcasting and Active Caching in Wireless Vehicular Networks," in=C2=A0/IEEE Transactions on Vehicular Technology/, vol. 65, no. 12, pp.= 9942-9953, Dec. 2016. doi: 10.1109/TVT.2016.2531185 URL:=C2=A0http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=3D&arnumber=3D741= 4507&isnumber=3D7779452 --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Fri Sep 7 04:18:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1BD130DE1 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 04:18:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ck2e-GA3LuF7 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 04:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C869A130DD5 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 04:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id z125-v6so9415604qkb.12 for ; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:18:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=0u1g/gTjsE+7dIbjJb9NBK+otOGZI29UUHD4oSb0GWM=; b=V8CSlku6DVtahBjH7gDEOCUIT+8x6hGSBEEPULlr60a9bKsy8kbhkbsU+5lEbPp+dJ CHqkBqPXeUVlD6on4o2kUWRUFY2lb8AnMxn25pQxKjj6Jgv0jP9jF8fPfW1RWPouaFib gzN3h/guHowI7sX1bBpwYrG+qdNOgKrn72DsSsYDCjvmiSO0tdFOAuvZnyBuDZX8Ep6l eOnkjQDj170pYkrcPBpdCZyv13R7LrrC60lwNcPy2UPuSa6C/12H44gCmbL++nPA8U2w D0yScii2Iiiop4XyFh1gLhJFQRrNUbih+nGcUszw/mUQAe3xjanNtWg3ZLBRYCEYSty+ MG7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language; bh=0u1g/gTjsE+7dIbjJb9NBK+otOGZI29UUHD4oSb0GWM=; b=bgrOa+gYygoGVpPJe3rAMJYr7Rmjhwb+vK6HC8a1g9NyOlnxL6FaB17eIkSoOccriM drHzrSMzxL7JQxk1Zap3KVQ0VRJMfhlwMekVA3I8DGnrpcxzgdDW50oGGBWIgEbULbM7 rpb3BVompgzloieDDt/C9eWobbC5Oim3RJYAXPJ481tGEcUNb7myvtbinOcXkFiwxrAC fA3D6NMHGd53E3ypxjR8vlDhxH+6ZK4AGqt3pOfMdJah+gN6YaZjh3PoAtDane6SWDtV eiivBwF/QzBrBLsZG3Ay3+avIWdgacPYXhcsYXmgrF3ZN1LntoT7+tKsrNzQJWNNUwtt +Xqw== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51AfBVEgUdIG/Vm0GYbrovMcfsklVbgmoqAo5yHWVbgsi7jHkwLY 5wG3DXQDog022iWcs+y/yXvi2J8e X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZ+XEqTqHPnCbmsw1wv4TLFxdHWcJLu2/nO6N9VsT+ertUTXs4whsUH/rmCfZctngxyYx3+nQ== X-Received: by 2002:a37:7704:: with SMTP id s4-v6mr5226847qkc.358.1536319105726; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-196-109.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o18-v6sm5321731qki.38.2018.09.07.04.18.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:18:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Amelia Andersdotter , Hrpc , its@ietf.org References: <0103d901-baf7-6a2f-391f-4d6e905fdefd@article19.org> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 07:18:24 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0103d901-baf7-6a2f-391f-4d6e905fdefd@article19.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------57BE5E18E129E2FA90311164" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-04 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 11:18:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------57BE5E18E129E2FA90311164 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Amelia, Very interesting and potentially useful. It appears, however, that the draft is based on relatively old specifications and work - in an arena where the activity changes from week to week.=C2=A0 There are also significant venues that are not even recognized. For example, ITU-T Study Group 17 (security) met the past two weeks in Geneva where it consider 56 documents.=C2=A0 This venue is also a global intergovernmental one with liaison relationships to numerous over venues, so it is of some increased significance.=C2=A0 It has an entire rapporteur group now dedicated to vehicular communication security and privacy chaired by Korea's ETRI and Hyundai Motors.=C2=A0 You can check out its terms of reference and 9 current work= items here https://www.itu.int/net4/ITU-T/lists/loqr.aspx?Group=3D17&Peri= od=3D16 They also just added five new work items - all of=C2=A0 which have hrpc implications: * Requirements of security information sharing and analysis for connected vehicles =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Information of gap analysis for proposed new work item, security aspects of cloud-based EDR in ITS context =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Security guideline for automotive Ethernet in In-Vehicle networks =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 * Security guidelines for cloud-based event data recorders in ITS context =C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Distributed Ledger based Vehicle Information Sharing=C2=A0 There is also an enormous amount of ongoing work in 3GPP and GSMA in this area that is not reflected in the draft. So admittedly, timeliness here is a challenge.=C2=A0 However, you probabl= y don't want to start out using material that is many years out of date and significantly incomplete. --tony ps. +1 on the plea for open standards!=C2=A0 It costs thousands of Euros = to even look at some of sets. --------------57BE5E18E129E2FA90311164 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Amelia,

Very interesting and potentially useful.

It appears, however, that the draft is based on relatively old specifications and work - in an arena where the activity changes from week to week.  There are also significant venues that are not even recognized.

For example, ITU-T Study Group 17 (security) met the past two weeks in Geneva where it consider 56 documents.  This venue is also a global intergovernmental one with liaison relationships to numerous over venues, so it is of some increased significance. 

It has an entire rapporteur group now dedicated to vehicular communication security and privacy chaired by Korea's ETRI and Hyundai Motors.  You can check out its terms of reference and 9 current work items here https://www.itu.int/net4/ITU-T/lists/loqr.aspx?Group=17&Period=16

They also just added five new work items - all of  which have hrpc implications:
  • Requirements of security information sharing and analysis for connected vehicles    
  • Information of gap analysis for proposed new work item, security aspects of cloud-based EDR in ITS context    
  • Security guideline for automotive Ethernet in In-Vehicle networks    
  • Security guidelines for cloud-based event data recorders in ITS context    
  • Distributed Ledger based Vehicle Information Sharing 
There is also an enormous amount of ongoing work in 3GPP and GSMA in this area that is not reflected in the draft.

So admittedly, timeliness here is a challenge.  However, you probably don't want to start out using material that is many years out of date and significantly incomplete.

--tony

ps. +1 on the plea for open standards!  It costs thousands of Euros to even look at some of sets.



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Fri, 07 Sep 2018 13:23:34 +0200 To: Tony Rutkowski , Hrpc , its@ietf.org References: <0103d901-baf7-6a2f-391f-4d6e905fdefd@article19.org> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFjWlnsBEAC+jUN+LJE+mmxEL8lHSrvg47xSBMb9GdtH1Jr8tRSxXiO6R5E+FydsfqkL sjO0dI3x/VnNBi/kgPFFWiAzDEwGTiR/C9b/Muo+xrY+it6e49N56LTPGezrY2dy5yo6VcLl 7UwGz3fIWiNIj7dvuoPMBoO1uacF073E+dqDM5CmNh6o+OrHW8zhUlC9hKgXCq+8XpZJw90H un1zsHF0sRDiurjfYaCcbdAGK9+th9378ed1ZvLVo5uBVQXdydl3eJkNCOELq7VOS7oxSliA uX5/nj9A4LjeeYXgNbwGfKrMjlffP0FcAcgfzg9seqDd1DEk9EVaUMTr32fbWOQHjinXSC7r Lw4xaNfoBebIe1M6z16Xg7+bXXCTdmJYcL9ugmkvT6tGnR12Pfoca1oBwXPvA0VIRi86kCSU D9qvZ3Vl07MKD2hsvFkGZJOQfEaYv5QLpCWv6RCjfDNC05IyMeSW4H18Fr/BoHX8FXHV3+9H LsbJQ/Zrofd/Cm+TKEmXLAtYc7iXvzV+mw3/u0VYqjEy/CRYa62Ah0NNNVIuswfRVIfx3UZo jX4y8j2Kh0jtUV5A4GGf8H3SzQ/cB0I7wTRHU9mCPVCtH6M26nPumL4Zr4D6uGnAmPf9xnlX lokOn2Qxf/mBldsL41PDbEpYhZvvn5kJ/Z9Qh7Fks/hfTbbJowARAQABzSxBbWVsaWEgQW5k ZXJzZG90dGVyIDxhbWVsaWFAYW5kZXJzZG90dGVyLmNjPsLBlwQTAQgAQQIbIwUJCWYBgAUL CQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgBYhBD1dtsq4UrmIBVpqb/7xwpS06AtVBQJY1pdiAhkB AAoJEP7xwpS06AtVI0sP/Al6eUycymdT1R7v0uEQv4coonnOUV6FKj/4wc+wM+A0h7vlqADr j4nS7RRSQRUo8xJ9tvR9J1Eyske5bvakOYv64f9PrNY1Z6ABhJzK34kJxekEfeLmpXAB4wst GhD8dGC/z/b9Oau0AW1GWIP0eNWq4acDf9Qf+j0wqQi25OZUXnu5KeUX7mvPTHKZLyEZlwHV atXmZHWKnQWtEPZTQfv/zESsoBAm1TbaLapgxVG9uLW+I9kj72TB/AZ5hMSKMYWZ2dC+8eEs Xd22tn6907aUmZhFT89jbEyS996WeZ+SQ5G1Okrq02qYXcCi5vm3AuvLlbRYHguh42TLaVq1 er7PiYOYH77FFmnZWW6ChFnf7xsDep2tpNxn+QUZLgO3+5kL7TfO7D2H57kjVVMdkNn+01nz kfcn76K7nuU6Dc4pItPzbDndhdxulnm9cicOEfGQqvta9ffxk4YWyAu9PUNARVRNf6OnoDQQ Zo8l1o37q9PFXJyQwzvxdd9u6uzTny2wp9eig75pD3dYHCRIQeYmkv1kB81mc86cwgvuw1Qy /QwiCBNXSSuIvLO78b+/dB0DLVQC/c6gtyWXRpC4ysF4EaEZophjT60d12YRanR+fWuH+qu2 wsT+z1d4tC5/6UJMPr3bxREh9JHThm5Y3cDBmcn0PGqtDKkwjCkqex5bzsFNBFjWlnsBEADF jusaTo9W8VeWluCK/oJqyyyF1wMvou0ldfuoOpUZrOqsY67TM7yBqsv5COPVgAV+xp+axor5 oHWxibd283w0Ok4dK6tvtNGwUqyDRlHtQ92DG/u4Tg5eOwrHNUn73/rfeBD9KhKAXcNKKPoc cLgR8oQTXpO7eRo+0NI52pXQ6LdZ0wddYeTcHglsNKN1TK+CyYS7xfGolsZXXoBOKcyhfj/c kPFVIHWpGpEtcYWTZWvXgLprzHvpKzkzNyBwejaXE+bqCT2dRl3omI/e2t3Vq33hFUUSAdxr FF29vMX/YsSnYqsFOIoayna+TRsDFAfZvbvHBOMckeJzvA8yBdadw7CM08Uw8wqH7n9BA3oq //QpZJekPfrc2E9nM9H0d51T0uStLMbYDWdwxvfPA3p9z8L91vobt8bM/Jbhl9h+X2Yq9oBC iTI7b2izYd9FVG4BwBIdeh3bh9R9HExgRjF3XQ6uafT3pcVOPASdv9FRUYH1Va7QWQifoha0 B7UXKx1OpX1Z6XR2NQ9KN2MvlwvBKdHtm6tBzUIFzW6D8vUOxiYKBA4fppJt/LJF4jsaCEyI /CVQnkC0yL5DKFOdigxTipwEL9Uc6r7VfR5OAGFd6vzuJFy+j+/WhzaVT1oVYp6eQXh0bBtq qH2Mq9sAMnIjvaNYIKiQKgMa1Pa3OWQbQQARAQABwsF8BBgBCAAmFiEEPV22yrhSuYgFWmpv /vHClLToC1UFAljWlnsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQ/vHClLToC1XnRw//W4lzE8FddceKXGRwO/T1 u4uzH9EjPCj+3/eHCrLI+h1m7QPyH1DrFAtZBoA6UoaF0+vIAJXM9/HI1FZ09EUdJr5X/+YR EErFom4DbE1FK8fpK1/Hw2zI+7Xa8bVkmYrKhMGhi1Gq6Dtksn/H4USdJL53ZPt10SVNK7H3 w93Yp1GC4+0zWjfrsKfsHYZZr2SZyb5/gZlngfgaqiQLhIcPYmiU1GQi9QWkGxWRxk0YQXBw hekewvgltATxlRSCwguAi4uck9fAct9GGdpsshSOgAb9YIAnEV3EqaGnf0PknXp3vNHAZWrf M+RyuNdm2L5TjDU0rIrvyqGP3pR33cREGOAil5Sz2uFArmwsPt8VffbEXlf7qZqRBKaYeKt0 qnxKMx1+e1JilVsfb8qtnAWAFDyR0HMlVj/dvGAmq/auPSOAUWRSnDRyT6rv/vXxrbkL4uxW ax46qdpDhR15mS5MTng6b5b3Uox7xlveo/Sx71AdNf4goPvB/ntv0DiMuh+fmLGk3zrxs4Xd 30Sx+qQwVaXR5xc5rgnF81wvfmuAOb2eP9mpD6DoabkpxC8fLk17AK7Q1ZTgcZ+8XLRFnavd PrwCa9RU0BF53lJMSTPzyBcMwZ4sqA6Z5IRFVt7rEbSeeD8REiawo+FvVt9j0fKdNEBeaJ3W Y5hlhNPcUXr4q1U= Organization: ARTICLE19 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 13:23:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US-large Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 5a1627636b35b65657045ef62631cd80 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-04 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 11:23:39 -0000 Dear Tony, On 2018-09-07 13:18, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > > For example, ITU-T Study Group 17 (security) met the past two weeks in > Geneva where it consider 56 documents.=C2=A0 This venue is also a globa= l > intergovernmental one with liaison relationships to numerous over > venues, so it is of some increased significance.=C2=A0 > > It has an entire rapporteur group now dedicated to vehicular > communication security and privacy chaired by Korea's ETRI and Hyundai > Motors.=C2=A0 You can check out its terms of reference and 9 current wo= rk > items here > https://www.itu.int/net4/ITU-T/lists/loqr.aspx?Group=3D17&Period=3D16 > The working group was brought to my attention and I have surveyed their documents. For the purposes of this review, I considered the recently initiated ITU-T SG 17 initiatives too undeveloped for an RFC8280 Section 6.2.7 Open Standards mention. best regards, Amelia --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Fri Sep 7 06:15:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4533130DF6; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 06:14:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.83.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <153632609574.28895.11299888135417857694@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 06:14:55 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-01.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 13:14:56 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations RG of the IRTF. Title : Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol Considerations Author : Niels ten Oever Filename : draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-01.txt Pages : 27 Date : 2018-09-07 Abstract: This document sets guidelines for human rights considerations in networking protocols, similar to the work done on the guidelines for privacy considerations [RFC6973]. This is an updated version of the guidelines for human rights considerations in [RFC8280]. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Sep 7 06:35:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 731DA130E81 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 06:34:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WxUvPq8aT9BD for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 06:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22b.google.com (mail-qt0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4AEC130E64 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 06:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id t39-v6so16183112qtc.8 for ; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 06:34:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=dLu3wQ8d4KwkwCvwa6cYehnN6pz1KlBU2pXa3BHHHVE=; b=GHobQfyYkimW8Nt6KmypSKbFEnrG2tyDGF6lmr88oimNhxC117pTZtBKhrgmzLmkgT kLdFHDx1hHqPZevm2PwKzEP5F2ju3hgcLY7Oc/e5EwSX6qhWUgZDJRAyPCf+CqoUafuP JI1B+E2RsSxFtymc0fDxUAqQ8nYWVlazjM3z5pebdyLaqLRaE+NCK9IBzLCrkhbWBUaH Uo4YdFwpe+wWBjS6+J4dztXx636HKqxqVn0xpl9kWOdoEiFIK0F6YdWoXFuU0ubXTbi4 ayyN1xq5Xo4r2qnzOmgNHiEZdo2R89i9c3iQy2yte7aectFZcaHJZA+yZxWKschKVOJH 76uQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language; bh=dLu3wQ8d4KwkwCvwa6cYehnN6pz1KlBU2pXa3BHHHVE=; b=JQ71Z6B2p+r2zG5mRev4ewUwdhOaGjdBU5w/4tKb4XFi7SZJliyUzt+EYVkcbGONSl +fcZgYcfXYCKakFbtrbmvyDSjOJY/TMpC4tN9PgZ/nPINdCUJ1GKiVlKNQ8siFZkwzBX Lp08YEVZbIyqlDlUdyUibaG3ucPITKPE0Jdna2BwvYI1SFJFFuAaLJL07+4RI0Yfnalo TjOl1bRa02GhnXUUbW9tVnbKuFqPrrtXNMZ/vc9I9bP9KUXeYG/ZGOCkbKwPG2StSPPe K47FDUfqqEKkd4VOC0ldso5FfhDinUTnHwdBgGuATYXCITDHHCace6ioQHfRJnMnjzuR VKsA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BhV5vR8Bri9E+RzM4sglDasUTMiyISL45PArQPgby6cs+S680s Ji5AYV4J6weqAU4lgjzi1hQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdblmioLN/FatigG4nl/VNFoOsDfAGof4t5SvtLBgJhPucppUlVXhmitoMvic8mmszOvUhmK7w== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2c72:: with SMTP id e47-v6mr6082151qta.60.1536327295722; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 06:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-196-109.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o7-v6sm3966738qtp.75.2018.09.07.06.34.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Sep 2018 06:34:55 -0700 (PDT) To: hrpc@irtf.org, internet-drafts@ietf.org, i-d-announce@ietf.org References: <153632609574.28895.11299888135417857694@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <7dc58580-76bf-d38b-b76b-0047de05ed69@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 09:34:54 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <153632609574.28895.11299888135417857694@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F7C0FFDD864F497956C97628" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-01.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 13:35:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F7C0FFDD864F497956C97628 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Niels, > Explanation: The end-to-end principle [Saltzer > ] > holds that 'the intelligence is end to end rather than hidden in the > network' [RFC1958 ]. > The end-to-end principle is important for the robustness of the > network and innovation. Such robustness of the network is crucial to > enabling human rights like freedom of expression. Example: Middleboxes > (which can be Content Delivery Networks, Firewalls, NATs or other > intermediary nodes that provide other 'services' than routing) serve > many legitimate purposes. But the protocols guiding them, can > influence individuals' ability to communicate online freely and > privately. The potential for abuse and intentional and unintentional > censoring and limiting permissionless innovation, and thus ultimately > the impact of middleboxes on the Internet as a place of unfiltered, > unmonitored freedom of speech, is real.=20 Is it possible to portray other views here?=C2=A0 Or are these the only "expressions" allowed? Not only are there quite contrary views on this highly controversial topic, but there is enormous empirical evidence that network robustness and end user security are critically dependent on middlebox based services.=C2=A0 Indeed, because networks in the real world are provided b= y enterprises, it is they who control what gets implemented, and copious analysis indicates that there are an enormous number of middleboxes in basically every network that exists. A cursory search of industry activity, R&D literature and patents, make it plain that the "innovation is in the network" today.=C2=A0 That's the entire point behind NFV-SDN-5G networks and services - innovation is in the NFV code instantiations.=C2=A0 It is doubtful if you are going to sto= p all that activity. So all of these factors drove the Middlebox Security Protocol work in ETSI - which is directed at producing a protocol that enables discovery of middleboxes in the transport path of data centres, and fine-grained control of their "observability" to the meet the end user's and enterprise network provider's security and privacy needs.=C2=A0 So are alternative views allowed in these guidelines, or is the perspective fixed? -t --------------F7C0FFDD864F497956C97628 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Niels,

Explanation: The end-to-end principle [Saltzer] holds that 'the intelligence is end to end rather than hidden in the network' [RFC1958]. The end-to-end principle is important for the robustness of the network and innovation. Such robustness of the network is crucial to enabling human rights like freedom of expression. Example: Middleboxes (which can be Content Delivery Networks, Firewalls, NATs or other intermediary nodes that provide other 'services' than routing) serve many legitimate purposes. But the protocols guiding them, can influence individuals' ability to communicate online freely and privately. The potential for abuse and intentional and unintentional censoring and limiting permissionless innovation, and thus ultimately the impact of middleboxes on the Internet as a place of unfiltered, unmonitored freedom of speech, is real.

Is it possible to portray other views here?  Or are these the only "expressions" allowed?

Not only are there quite contrary views on this highly controversial topic, but there is enormous empirical evidence that network robustness and end user security are critically dependent on middlebox based services.  Indeed, because networks in the real world are provided by enterprises, it is they who control what gets implemented, and copious analysis indicates that there are an enormous number of middleboxes in basically every network that exists.

A cursory search of industry activity, R&D literature and patents, make it plain that the "innovation is in the network" today.  That's the entire point behind NFV-SDN-5G networks and services - innovation is in the NFV code instantiations.  It is doubtful if you are going to stop all that activity.

So all of these factors drove the Middlebox Security Protocol work in ETSI - which is directed at producing a protocol that enables discovery of middleboxes in the transport path of data centres, and fine-grained control of their "observability" to the meet the end user's and enterprise network provider's security and privacy needs. 

So are alternative views allowed in these guidelines, or is the perspective fixed?

-t


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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e43-v6sm5092091qtc.1.2018.09.07.11.14.52 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Sep 2018 11:14:53 -0700 (PDT) To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 14:14:52 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------BAA3F40366BCA624F9F2165E" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] privacy aspects of decentralized Identity and GDPR compliance X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 18:15:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BAA3F40366BCA624F9F2165E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HRPC participants may want to be cognizant of this output from the ITU-T SG17 meeting which wrapped up today.=C2=A0 The Self-Sovereign Identity concept apparently has advocates in SG17.=C2=A0 The rapporteurs here from= NEC and Aetna are longtime experts in the identity management arena, and they are pursuing this work in their respective rapporteur groups. 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its@ietf.org From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFjWlnsBEAC+jUN+LJE+mmxEL8lHSrvg47xSBMb9GdtH1Jr8tRSxXiO6R5E+FydsfqkL sjO0dI3x/VnNBi/kgPFFWiAzDEwGTiR/C9b/Muo+xrY+it6e49N56LTPGezrY2dy5yo6VcLl 7UwGz3fIWiNIj7dvuoPMBoO1uacF073E+dqDM5CmNh6o+OrHW8zhUlC9hKgXCq+8XpZJw90H un1zsHF0sRDiurjfYaCcbdAGK9+th9378ed1ZvLVo5uBVQXdydl3eJkNCOELq7VOS7oxSliA uX5/nj9A4LjeeYXgNbwGfKrMjlffP0FcAcgfzg9seqDd1DEk9EVaUMTr32fbWOQHjinXSC7r Lw4xaNfoBebIe1M6z16Xg7+bXXCTdmJYcL9ugmkvT6tGnR12Pfoca1oBwXPvA0VIRi86kCSU D9qvZ3Vl07MKD2hsvFkGZJOQfEaYv5QLpCWv6RCjfDNC05IyMeSW4H18Fr/BoHX8FXHV3+9H LsbJQ/Zrofd/Cm+TKEmXLAtYc7iXvzV+mw3/u0VYqjEy/CRYa62Ah0NNNVIuswfRVIfx3UZo jX4y8j2Kh0jtUV5A4GGf8H3SzQ/cB0I7wTRHU9mCPVCtH6M26nPumL4Zr4D6uGnAmPf9xnlX lokOn2Qxf/mBldsL41PDbEpYhZvvn5kJ/Z9Qh7Fks/hfTbbJowARAQABzSxBbWVsaWEgQW5k ZXJzZG90dGVyIDxhbWVsaWFAYW5kZXJzZG90dGVyLmNjPsLBlwQTAQgAQQIbIwUJCWYBgAUL 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M+RyuNdm2L5TjDU0rIrvyqGP3pR33cREGOAil5Sz2uFArmwsPt8VffbEXlf7qZqRBKaYeKt0 qnxKMx1+e1JilVsfb8qtnAWAFDyR0HMlVj/dvGAmq/auPSOAUWRSnDRyT6rv/vXxrbkL4uxW ax46qdpDhR15mS5MTng6b5b3Uox7xlveo/Sx71AdNf4goPvB/ntv0DiMuh+fmLGk3zrxs4Xd 30Sx+qQwVaXR5xc5rgnF81wvfmuAOb2eP9mpD6DoabkpxC8fLk17AK7Q1ZTgcZ+8XLRFnavd PrwCa9RU0BF53lJMSTPzyBcMwZ4sqA6Z5IRFVt7rEbSeeD8REiawo+FvVt9j0fKdNEBeaJ3W Y5hlhNPcUXr4q1U= Organization: ARTICLE19 Message-ID: <32d8c171-2586-e2db-7cc6-26c3385b6946@article19.org> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 22:49:17 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US-large X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 72be745e4a817e3b6c39dafddcade14f Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] RFC8280 Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-25 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 20:49:25 -0000 Dear all, As part of efforts in the Human Rights Protocol Considerations (HRPC) group, I have reviewed the human rights considerations (RFC 8280) in IPv6-over-OCB v25. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/25/= I've briefly reviewed v26 of the document, and find that the general recommendations and observations below still hold in general. The review is ended with an ERRATA (editorial remarks). The below text has been sent to the author of the document on September 4, and some comments were received today (September 7). In this submission, I'm hoping to open up for input from the larger community. best regards, Amelia # Summary =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I understand that Sections 6.2.1 (Connectivity), 6.2.3 (Content agnosticism), 6.2.6 (Censorship Resistenace), 6.2.8 (Heterogeneity support) and 6.2.18 (Adaptability) of RFC8280 are taken into account by the draft. References in the draft on less accessible standards in accordance with Section 6.2.7 (Open Standards) in RFC8280 follows a previously submitted evaluation. I suggest expansions on topics related to Sections 6.2.2 (Privacy), 6.2.4 (Security), 6.2.9 (Anonymity), 6.2.10 (Pseudonymity), 6.2.14 (Reliability), 6.2.16 (Integrity) and 6.2.17 (Authenticity) in RFC8280. I do not identify any concerns raised by Sections 6.2.5 (Internationalization), 6.2.11 (Accessibility), 6.2.12 (Localization) and 6.2.19 (Outcome transparency) in RFC8280. # Topical human rights review =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ## Part 1: Privacy, reliability, integrity and authenticity =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D This part reviews IPv6-over-80211-OCB draft with respect to Sections 6.2.2 (Privacy), 6.2.4 (Security), 6.2.9 (Anonymity), 6.2.10 (Pseudonymity), 6.2.14 (Reliability), 6.2.16 (Integrity) and 6.2.17 (Authenticity) in RFC8280. Privacy and security issues are raised in various places of the documents, for instance in Section 1, Section 4.5, Section 5 and Appendix C, D and F. HoIver, while they are raised, no specific recommendations to mitigate concerns are made. It is only mentioned that other documents and standards do propose risk mitigation strategies. The considerations raised in Appendix F.3 regarding the reliability and integrity of the transmission schemes seem like they could have a big impact on what functionalities must be included in this draft. If the IPv6 transmission itself needs to guarantee specified senders and receivers, this would require different privacy trade-offs in the rest of the document. It was not immediately clear whether link-local addresses are recommended for any particular purposes or use-cases. It is my understanding that link-local addresses restrict the ability of an interface to communicate with other interfaces than those with whom they share a direct link, and that this may entail privacy benefits. But in Section 4.6 there are conflicting references to RFC5889, where it's specified that IPv6 link-local addressing should be avoided in ad hoc networks. Many considerations in the draft are impacted by the strong necessity to use protection tools such as dynamic MAC re-addressing. This impacts the ability to use IPv6 address generation as described in Section 4 of RFC2464. But dynamic MAC re-addressing also would appear to justify the recommendation to use stable IPv6 address generation as described in RFC8064 or RFC7217. Currently, pseudonym handling is just briefly mentioned at the end of Section 5 as a security issue but given its impact on addressing and IPv6 address generation, I believe they merit their own section. In Appendix F.1, it is not clear why a mechanism to uniquely identify a vehicle is necessary. It should be clarified whether this is a technical requirement (for instance, whether this constitutes a proposal to introduce a unique identifier different from the Layer-2 MAC unique identifier), or a legal requirement, and whether this new unique identifier is intended for use in networking in general, or only for specific circumstances. ## Part 2: Internationalization, accessibility and transparency =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The functions described in this draft do not appear to be impacted by Sections 6.2.5 (Internationalization), 6.2.11 (Accessibility) or 6.2.12 (Localization) in RFC8280. Similarly, the applicability of Section 6.2.19 (Outcome transparency) in RFC8280 seems largely related to issues relating to authenticity, reliability and integrity. # Recommendations: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1. Collect all references to privacy and security in one place. If privacy and security is in Section 4.5, 5 and Appendix F (as specified in Section 4.5), this should be noted in Section 1. Also, privacy and security issues are only mentioned in this document: recommendations for their resolution are not present. This should be reflected in the Section= 1. 2. In Section 4, add a section named "Pseudonym handling" at the very top, describing the issues raised in the final paragraph of Section 5. Remove the last paragraph of Section 5. 3.=C2=A0 The potential privacy benefits of link-local addresses could be raised, especially since OCB transmissions are not secure against curious nodes. On the other hand, RFC5889 Section 6.1 states that link-local addressing is discouraged for ad hoc IPv6 networks. These trade-offs could be expanded upon. 4. In Section 4.3 and 4.5 it should be clarified what privacy benefits, if any, are expected from using semantically obscure IIDs as proposed in RFC7217. It will at least be relevant to clarify whether privacy benefits could arise in contexts that are explicitly out of scope (such as during forming, termination or handover), e.g. with respect to parameter selection as specified in Appendix A of RFC7217. # References: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D [RFC8280] Research into Human Rights Protocol Considerations https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8280 =3D=3D# ERRATA: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Neither the term IP-RSU nor the term IP-OBU defined in Section 2 are actually used in the document. In Section 2, definitions, the definition of IP-RSU can be made more succinct by removing the second sentence (that is, remove "An IP-RSU has at least two distinct IP-enabled interfaces; at least one interface is operated in mode OCB of IEEE 802.11 and is IP-enabled."). Section 4.5 only needs to recommend following the procedures in RFC8064 once. In Appendix C, p. 26, 2nd to last paragraph, it is mentioned that MAC re-addressing is described in IEEE-1609.4 Section 6.7. HoIver, in my copy of IEEE-1609.4 this feature is described in Section 6.6. --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Fri Sep 7 15:59:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F51130E1F for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 15:59:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HK_NAME_FM_MR_MRS=1.499, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aSt5ACGQrqy5 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 15:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd42.google.com (mail-io1-xd42.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D2D1130DF4 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2018 15:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd42.google.com with SMTP id w11-v6so2759249iob.2 for ; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 15:59:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zqglpSBBM+X8iVKZmXQcgQbAPXg+JNG4aXdOrNb1A0w=; b=DWhTD/B5onjHwDeIVXMh755Y81YSgZuXW2It+9/glh620xBh2M1Ogt1v94SM4JgH82 PSIpnMaGYmgJav+dDJ/0RjsYY8hO6trr6ojgWbwUfwW54d6Cn0D/gyC6AjItvsjVmS+S UWW9Vb6BQfjQZei9xRzBWsgD+cjI/AZv3+4XtwHqWglKCSpX0pn07m+0qf4+94odPGvX lSe2kc4MgJJW6mMgd3oqA6RLpzwYh6bBu49nsg2d9uPKtBvletyw4ZErbBQohv6W0Ly2 ZZHVX/UTNR/MB+Wh4ZEgXpYV06dECjEi/2y23qxo3tB2AOo7NhnnRmQDgxXTXhVVOtV/ 0jGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zqglpSBBM+X8iVKZmXQcgQbAPXg+JNG4aXdOrNb1A0w=; b=V84Axzj0hLbIrOQ27OGOJ9rLGQ9Z9z+GcTAtq289T9/MM180s0g884l8K8n5ugGzSX 9IA3r8AFx+kj4P6vX5z4zicgmrfC63iPBtgobhVpEOk4ohNlLueEw8Ok59kuMSmoxzSP RnJHZFSYmwKh4BLSVFOcwykU3gGrP6NYFeFs8pAfSn+4dSt9ruJEPk0742EM46G9qwNb MZRlhuE2vt40oiHKS88PXWBQ554ZvI6k6b8TKmZz453oJFyg7fqOV4CFCx9ROPry8bxf lvavBgdW3Bsi+u1VvDzqasQUCedfXRD8rLw8dGuQp8izDmhBZtLbx6BUYKrCI212LFzd UehA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51D2z5at6xjmgDPUu7vuREjsZXTjQbwoHFUHHyBAOl8L3cUpaw0K Fbda85YD5D8AXtoKaMXm2lfFgTvIyfEspQ65QVgzvg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdbTBoljIfKBPd/rb80sIBv/uoQobby3/AK1mOGNILh/IYV03UrLcmLGoLqmZodoNt8Dv7uUMK3zpDpWGcRaLjI= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:928b:: with SMTP id u133-v6mr8082099iod.296.1536361174247; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 15:59:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0103d901-baf7-6a2f-391f-4d6e905fdefd@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <0103d901-baf7-6a2f-391f-4d6e905fdefd@article19.org> From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 07:59:23 +0900 Message-ID: To: Amelia Andersdotter Cc: Hrpc , its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000009afe805754ff655" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [ipwave] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-04 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 22:59:39 -0000 --00000000000009afe805754ff655 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Amelia, As the editor of this document, I sincerely appreciate your review and will use it in the next revision. Thanks Best Regards, Paul 2018=EB=85=84 9=EC=9B=94 7=EC=9D=BC (=EA=B8=88) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 7:08, Am= elia Andersdotter =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84= =B1: > Dear all, > > As part of efforts in the Human Rights Protocol Considerations (HRPC) > group, I have reviewed the human rights considerations (RFC 8280) in > IPWAVE Problem Statement. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/ > > The below text has been sent to the author of the document on August 28. > I'm now hoping for input from the larger community. > > best regards, > > Amelia > > # Summary > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > I understand that the draft contains a satisfactory treatment of the > human rights concerns listen in Section 6.2.1 (Connectivity), 6.2.3 > (Content agnosticism), 6.2.8 (Heterogeneity support), Section 6.2.14 > (Reliability), Section 6.2.16 (Integrity), Section 6.2.17 (Authenticity) > and 6.2.18 (Adaptability) of RFC8280. I have also traced some of the > dependencies of the draft on less accessible standards in accordance > with Section 6.2.7 (Open Standards) in RFC8280. > > I have suggested improvements with respect to human rights concerns > listed in Sections 6.2.2 (Privacy), 6.2.4 (Security), 6.2.6 (Censorship > Resistenace), 6.2.9 (Anonymity), 6.2.10 (Pseudonymity), 6.2.13 > (Decentralization), 6.2.15 (Confidentiality) and 6.2.19 (Outcome > transparency) in RFC8280. > > I finally make two suggestions related to Sections 6.2.5 > (Internationalization), 6.2.11 (Accessibility) and 6.2.12 (Localization) > in RFC8280. > > # Topical human rights review > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ## Part 1: Privacy, decentralization, transparency > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This part reviews IPWAVE Problem Statement draft from the perspectives > of Sections 6.2.2 (Privacy), 6.2.4 (Security), 6.2.6 (Censorship > Resistenace), 6.2.9 (Anonymity), 6.2.10 (Pseudonymity), 6.2.13 > (Decentralization), 6.2.15 (Confidentiality) and 6.2.19 (Outcome > transparency) in RFC8280. > > In Section 4.1.7 Current Protocols for Vehicular Networking: Security > and Privacy, the focus is only on encryption and certificate exchanges. > I believe this can be complemented by raising topics that have been > prevalent in vehicular communications for a large number of years. > Notably data minimization and geolocalisation threats (see e.g. RFC6973, > section 6.1: Data minimization). > > It is generally recognised that vehicular communications face particular > security and privacy challenges, with the driver of the connected > vehicle perhaps being obliged by law to disseminate specified, and > verifiably accurate, data. This makes the driver unable to deploy common > privacy strategies, such as obfuscation, and calls for extra careful > consideration of durable connections (such as connections that last over > pseudonym changes, thereby opening new privacy attack vectors). > Pseudonym changes are therefore proposed as alternative privacy risk > mitigations. > > In Section 5.3, there is focus on integrity (RFC8280, Section 6.2.16) > and authenticity (RFC8280, Section 6.2.17), where the privacy and > security complications arising from vehicular networks are, I insist, > broader in scope. It is not clear that the Vehicle Identification Number > (VIN) would not be used to track a vehicle or its driver against his or > her wishes, even if the MAC address and IP address are randomized or > re-addressed. Of particular importance are those situations where > drivers are not legally alloId to discontinue a particular connection > (see also RFC6973, Section 6.2: User Control or RFC8280, Section 6.2.6: > Censorship Resistance and Section 6.2.15: Confidentiality). > > I see a need for at least reflection on the centralized properties of > authentication and certificate schemes in Section 5.3 (see e.g. RFC8280, > Section 6.2.13: Decentralization). Depending on which agent is > ultimately endoId with the responsibility of issuing certificates for > security purposes, there may be large downstream market effects on > drivers and the service providers available for drivers to choose. In > fact, this is a central issue in drivers' associations concerns with > vehicular communications and, in general, telematics[2]. Both of these > considerations call into question whether the "same" network should be > used for all use-cases listed in Section 3 of the Problem Statement. It > may be, for instance, that pseudonym self-issuance should be considered > for some use-cases, but not for others. An overview of pseudonym > issuance strategies is found in [3]. > > Finally, there has been some attention in literature to the use of OBU > caching as a way of minimizing contacts with RSU[4], or including > options to collect information from other near-by vehicles instead of > from the RSU when a querying need arises. IPWAVE may want to delve > further into the topic of how this might work in an ad hoc 802.11 > network and whether IPWAVE gives options for solutions that are not as > well present in other technologies. > > ## Part 2: Internationalization and accessibility > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This part reviews IPWAVE Problem Statement draft from the perspectives > of Sections 6.2.5 (Internationalization), 6.2.11 (Accessibility) and > 6.2.12 (Localization) in RFC8280. These sections deal with ways in which > affected parties can interact effortlessly with resulting specifications. > > The IPWAVE Problem Statement draft any obvious efforts to address the > issues raised in those sections of RFC8280. That said, accessibility as > in Sections 6.2.11 or 6.2.12 may require the cooperation of user > interface designers and higher layers. > > In the context of internationalization and localization, I note that > references to regulatory frameworks that put natural boundaries on the > scope of the projects proposed within the Problem Statement are limited > to North America and Europe. It is not clear whether those geographical > regions that use different alphabets or logographs have a greater > interest in internationalization and localization, than those > geographical regions that predominantly rely on the latin alphabet. This > could be clarified. > > In the context of privacy options discussed above, it is the case that > the standards developed in IPWAVE are more likely to be consumed by > implementers and user interface designers at higher layers than by > drivers of vehicles. In the interest of accessibility and localization, > clarity with respect to privacy-, user control- or security-enhancing > features for the implementers is paramount to ensure that these features > do not end up obscured. > > ## Part 3: Open standards > -------------------------------------- > > This part reviews IPWAVE Problem Statement draft from the perspective of > Section 6.2.7 (Open Standards) in RFC8280. > > It may be noted that the IETF as such makes open standards and maintains > openness throughout the standard developments deliberations. Many of the > standards referenced in Problem Statement are not open. IEEE 1609 and > IEEE 802.11-OCB may require subscriptions for researchers and > implementers to accesss for some time after the completion of a > standardisation project, while ISO standards are always closed to the > public, in the sense that they sell access to their standards. ETSI and > 3GPP standards become accessible to the public only upon their conclusion= . > > # Recommendations > ----------------------------- > > 1. In our literature review, I found one proposal to use Multipath TCP > to enable lasting connections in spite of re-addressing[1]. This study > could be tentatively inserted in Section 4.1.7. Reference [3] should be > added to section 5.3 together with observations made above. Similarly > section 5.3 could cover reference [4]. > > 2. Due consideration should be given to the fact that a lasting > connection risks defeating some of the purposes of pseudonym > randomization/re-issuance, since the lasting connection would then in > and of itself become a way to track the vehicle. The Vehicle > Identification Number (VIN) risks defeating the purpose of re-addressing > or pseudonym handling, if it is used as an authentication mechanism. > Section 4.2.4 Pseudonym Handling or Section 5.3 could raise this issue. > Of particular importance for a vehicle owner or driver will be whether > these durable connections are mandatory to enable under any legislation. > > It could be considered whether different certificate issuance strategies > can be deployed for different types of connections. > > 3. I believe an additional definition is needed for the word > "pseudonym", in order to clarify that by this word the document means > the same thing as is meant by MAC/Layer-2 Randomization in P802.11aq, > the readdressing feature described in IEEE 1609.4-2016, or the temporary > identifiers referenced in ETSI TS 102 941. > > 4. IPWAVE should make it clear it intends that privacy-friendly options > should be made explicit to implementers in the developed standards. > > 5. The working group may consider whether to undertake greater > internationalization efforts inside the group, or request it from other > working groups, bearing in mind that some of the geographical regions > not covered by the regulatory review may consider this a perk. > > [1] S. Han, H. Kim and Y. Park, "Overcoming IP communication breakdown > upon pseudonym changes in the IEEE WAVE," 2017 IEEE Vehicular Networking > Conference (VNC), Torino, 2017, pp. 183-186. > doi: 10.1109/VNC.2017.8275622 > URL: > > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org.ludwig.lub.lu.se/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=3D&arnumbe= r=3D8275622&isnumber=3D8275590 > > [2] FIA, http://mycarmydata.eu > > [3] J. Petit, F. Schaub, M. Feiri and F. Kargl, "Pseudonym Schemes in > Vehicular Networks: A Survey," in IEEE Communications Surveys & > Tutorials, vol. 17, no. 1, pp. 228-255, Firstquarter 2015. > doi: 10.1109/COMST.2014.2345420 > URL: > > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org.ludwig.lub.lu.se/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=3D&arnumbe= r=3D6873216&isnumber=3D7061782 > > > [4] B. Liu, W. Zhou, T. Zhu, L. Gao, T. H. Luan and H. Zhou, "Silence is > Golden: Enhancing Privacy of Location-Based Services by Content > Broadcasting and Active Caching in Wireless Vehicular Networks," > in /IEEE Transactions on Vehicular Technology/, vol. 65, no. 12, pp. > 9942-9953, Dec. 2016. > doi: 10.1109/TVT.2016.2531185 > URL: > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=3D&arnumber=3D7414507&isnum= ber=3D7779452 > > -- > Amelia Andersdotter > Technical Consultant, Digital Programme > > ARTICLE19 > www.article19.org > > PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > --00000000000009afe805754ff655 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Amelia,
As the editor of this documen= t, I sincerely appreciate your review and will use it in the next revision.=

Thanks=C2=A0

Best Regards,
Paul

2018=EB= =85=84 9=EC=9B=94 7=EC=9D=BC (=EA=B8=88) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 7:08, Amelia An= dersdotter <amelia@article19.org= >=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:
Dear all,

As part of efforts in the Human Rights Protocol Considerations (HRPC)
group, I have reviewed the human rights considerations (RFC 8280) in
IPWAVE Problem Statement.
https://datatrack= er.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/

The below text has been sent to the author of the document on August 28. I'm now hoping for input from the larger community.

best regards,

Amelia

# Summary
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

I understand that the draft contains a satisfactory treatment of the
human rights concerns listen in Section 6.2.1 (Connectivity), 6.2.3
(Content agnosticism), 6.2.8 (Heterogeneity support), Section 6.2.14
(Reliability), Section 6.2.16 (Integrity), Section 6.2.17 (Authenticity) and 6.2.18 (Adaptability) of RFC8280. I have also traced some of the
dependencies of the draft on less accessible standards in accordance
with Section 6.2.7 (Open Standards) in RFC8280.

I have suggested improvements with respect to human rights concerns
listed in Sections 6.2.2 (Privacy), 6.2.4 (Security), 6.2.6 (Censorship
Resistenace), 6.2.9 (Anonymity), 6.2.10 (Pseudonymity), 6.2.13
(Decentralization), 6.2.15 (Confidentiality) and 6.2.19 (Outcome
transparency) in RFC8280.

I finally make two suggestions related to Sections 6.2.5
(Internationalization), 6.2.11 (Accessibility) and 6.2.12 (Localization) in RFC8280.

# Topical human rights review
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
## Part 1: Privacy, decentralization, transparency
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

This part reviews IPWAVE Problem Statement draft from the perspectives
of Sections 6.2.2 (Privacy), 6.2.4 (Security), 6.2.6 (Censorship
Resistenace), 6.2.9 (Anonymity), 6.2.10 (Pseudonymity), 6.2.13
(Decentralization), 6.2.15 (Confidentiality) and 6.2.19 (Outcome
transparency) in RFC8280.

In Section 4.1.7 Current Protocols for Vehicular Networking: Security
and Privacy, the focus is only on encryption and certificate exchanges.
I believe this can be complemented by raising topics that have been
prevalent in vehicular communications for a large number of years.
Notably data minimization and geolocalisation threats (see e.g. RFC6973, section 6.1: Data minimization).

It is generally recognised that vehicular communications face particular security and privacy challenges, with the driver of the connected
vehicle perhaps being obliged by law to disseminate specified, and
verifiably accurate, data. This makes the driver unable to deploy common privacy strategies, such as obfuscation, and calls for extra careful
consideration of durable connections (such as connections that last over pseudonym changes, thereby opening new privacy attack vectors).
Pseudonym changes are therefore proposed as alternative privacy risk
mitigations.

In Section 5.3, there is focus on integrity (RFC8280, Section 6.2.16)
and authenticity (RFC8280, Section 6.2.17), where the privacy and
security complications arising from vehicular networks are, I insist,
broader in scope. It is not clear that the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) would not be used to track a vehicle or its driver against his or
her wishes, even if the MAC address and IP address are randomized or
re-addressed. Of particular importance are those situations where
drivers are not legally alloId to discontinue a particular connection
(see also RFC6973, Section 6.2: User Control or RFC8280, Section 6.2.6:
Censorship Resistance and Section 6.2.15: Confidentiality).

I see a need for at least reflection on the centralized properties of
authentication and certificate schemes in Section 5.3 (see e.g. RFC8280, Section 6.2.13: Decentralization). Depending on which agent is
ultimately endoId with the responsibility of issuing certificates for
security purposes, there may be large downstream market effects on
drivers and the service providers available for drivers to choose. In
fact, this is a central issue in drivers' associations concerns with vehicular communications and, in general, telematics[2]. Both of these
considerations call into question whether the "same" network shou= ld be
used for all use-cases listed in Section 3 of the Problem Statement. It
may be, for instance, that pseudonym self-issuance should be considered
for some use-cases, but not for others. An overview of pseudonym
issuance strategies is found in [3].

Finally, there has been some attention in literature to the use of OBU
caching as a way of minimizing contacts with RSU[4], or including
options to collect information from other near-by vehicles instead of
from the RSU when a querying need arises. IPWAVE may want to delve
further into the topic of how this might work in an ad hoc 802.11
network and whether IPWAVE gives options for solutions that are not as
well present in other technologies.

## Part 2: Internationalization and accessibility
------------------------------------------------------------------

This part reviews IPWAVE Problem Statement draft from the perspectives
of Sections 6.2.5 (Internationalization), 6.2.11 (Accessibility) and
6.2.12 (Localization) in RFC8280. These sections deal with ways in which affected parties can interact effortlessly with resulting specifications.
The IPWAVE Problem Statement draft any obvious efforts to address the
issues raised in those sections of RFC8280. That said, accessibility as
in Sections 6.2.11 or 6.2.12 may require the cooperation of user
interface designers and higher layers.

In the context of internationalization and localization, I note that
references to regulatory frameworks that put natural boundaries on the
scope of the projects proposed within the Problem Statement are limited
to North America and Europe. It is not clear whether those geographical
regions that use different alphabets or logographs have a greater
interest in internationalization and localization, than those
geographical regions that predominantly rely on the latin alphabet. This could be clarified.

In the context of privacy options discussed above, it is the case that
the standards developed in IPWAVE are more likely to be consumed by
implementers and user interface designers at higher layers than by
drivers of vehicles. In the interest of accessibility and localization,
clarity with respect to privacy-, user control- or security-enhancing
features for the implementers is paramount to ensure that these features do not end up obscured.

## Part 3: Open standards
--------------------------------------

This part reviews IPWAVE Problem Statement draft from the perspective of Section 6.2.7 (Open Standards) in RFC8280.

It may be noted that the IETF as such makes open standards and maintains openness throughout the standard developments deliberations. Many of the standards referenced in Problem Statement are not open. IEEE 1609 and
IEEE 802.11-OCB may require subscriptions for researchers and
implementers to accesss for some time after the completion of a
standardisation project, while ISO standards are always closed to the
public, in the sense that they sell access to their standards. ETSI and
3GPP standards become accessible to the public only upon their conclusion.<= br>
# Recommendations
-----------------------------

1. In our literature review, I found one proposal to use Multipath TCP
to enable lasting connections in spite of re-addressing[1]. This study
could be tentatively inserted in Section 4.1.7. Reference [3] should be
added to section 5.3 together with observations made above. Similarly
section 5.3 could cover reference [4].

2. Due consideration should be given to the fact that a lasting
connection risks defeating some of the purposes of pseudonym
randomization/re-issuance, since the lasting connection would then in
and of itself become a way to track the vehicle. The Vehicle
Identification Number (VIN) risks defeating the purpose of re-addressing or pseudonym handling, if it is used as an authentication mechanism.
Section 4.2.4 Pseudonym Handling or Section 5.3 could raise this issue.
Of particular importance for a vehicle owner or driver will be whether
these durable connections are mandatory to enable under any legislation.
It could be considered whether different certificate issuance strategies can be deployed for different types of connections.

3. I believe an additional definition is needed for the word
"pseudonym", in order to clarify that by this word the document m= eans
the same thing as is meant by MAC/Layer-2 Randomization in P802.11aq,
the readdressing feature described in IEEE 1609.4-2016, or the temporary identifiers referenced in ETSI TS 102 941.

4. IPWAVE should make it clear it intends that privacy-friendly options
should be made explicit to implementers in the developed standards.

5. The working group may consider whether to undertake greater
internationalization efforts inside the group, or request it from other
working groups, bearing in mind that some of the geographical regions
not covered by the regulatory review may consider this a perk.

[1] S. Han, H. Kim and Y. Park, "Overcoming IP communication breakdown=
upon pseudonym changes in the IEEE WAVE," 2017 IEEE Vehicular Networki= ng
Conference (VNC), Torino, 2017, pp. 183-186.
doi: 10.1109/VNC.2017.8275622
URL:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org.ludwig.lub.lu.se/stamp/s= tamp.jsp?tp=3D&arnumber=3D8275622&isnumber=3D8275590

[2] FIA, http://mycarmydata.eu

[3] J. Petit, F. Schaub, M. Feiri and F. Kargl, "Pseudonym Schemes in<= br> Vehicular Networks: A Survey," in IEEE Communications Surveys & Tutorials, vol. 17, no. 1, pp. 228-255, Firstquarter 2015.
doi: 10.1109/COMST.2014.2345420
URL:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org.ludwig.lub.lu.se/stamp/s= tamp.jsp?tp=3D&arnumber=3D6873216&isnumber=3D7061782


[4] B. Liu, W. Zhou, T. Zhu, L. Gao, T. H. Luan and H. Zhou, "Silence = is
Golden: Enhancing Privacy of Location-Based Services by Content
Broadcasting and Active Caching in Wireless Vehicular Networks,"
in=C2=A0/IEEE Transactions on Vehicular Technology/, vol. 65, no. 12, pp. 9942-9953, Dec. 2016.
doi: 10.1109/TVT.2016.2531185
URL:=C2=A0http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=3D&arnumbe= r=3D7414507&isnumber=3D7779452

--
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ie= tf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
--00000000000009afe805754ff655-- From nobody Thu Sep 13 20:19:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D1112F1A6 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2018 20:19:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ri2JPxZjtS4 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2018 20:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic312-29.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic312-29.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.191.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 729A1126CC7 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2018 20:19:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1536895169; bh=sFFpl1DFlK0r36iaIJSI0NjWNNEEvs5eYOTdv/SgemI=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:References:From:Subject; b=D0S+ED/XpLJz6pFG8QAWGDZYBhVp5xZ8MoiyCFNtkr85iIi5x6F/OTptCPlGawaz+2we0DyFz43haZM1tWB1K+iOLcGtnF908SGnPiY5xjvwaqUCEEvwhTUnofM/EOrRD08XQMCm9Bc+Wev3Nr8Z+AEpyeD50/+O7XNmSL4Ky6gaDIzzuXxnz+Ldd5a3wXjU6cl8Jc0U1LvNmxHG8ZaJfWA4CtSCo2GwrLO+zfPcLO451TJmkBjN/p2cpqkrOOtMCpa5slaEAt6RWFtaeK5Rt8Gy5tsrR3KRLIinwQQ69alj4EykvidsBimNdHGgm62nFBTZ6fCMThbJmwRx5nLRYA== X-YMail-OSG: EOFxQXIVM1lyrWayERZXHO.e7ttyG0YLXu_0DRIVvq297c_rDN7zBInmrBx6Pc. a.phdyl_c88w6TpLZPv5ugD_amShF3qlgiwRo_7uJVgloli6INSjbNmkw7njAcvPRFVnUvkEV7Tt SxRAVZimz2wlDd0i3IsDzeyyoDzDWSZbsMwTJFQ66F1wez.gwJdAoT8T1WAh_HXD8sV74NSQeh1W PhThmuQjhchWfwCqe.w5aT1MbybREotwGWCots78Woky4raXjMT9W6mTVNrv_0nbewelIQXbaPy5 h2fSFfU42Eqe5pM64cX01LVoMtBy9PczhW0ngcbecNSRS_9l1ZOIwVsPkIAk_CQ3gkjf3d6YSDPl 6PXoAOpXOBPcU5T2bM5qFhOYkMhaW8OYjIkVpIIOS_tDCBv7.T82Dw5EKfWzNOxeje1gl3ZCri9v uF4v6eAwx2pdx35Bzq3j2v.XvI.rqQxt53MbdMoO7JKCy4y2k7smlCq7Kg8MzmFcfglzZMRYjuM9 s2ZqjGUgGPg_nKt9muT.tw_aLfGNhvdJLY.MJ99scH0Ba5FZIKfQ9rAaWc_n3coT5v2Dx8jro_ZS DQrHC4EDWvWFeQVeUr6k4L2Po7_85I2dWII_nj.0H1Oji7Ri3te4gCsaAk6rjLzGS9098eXhUqg4 rU4YXEQkgrS6vpYeSfIxLcIfNEJidmfZBeXCeWZULC_3q_NC_2cbWuK4kshsqYXru6S3v7aKdjaL QmL5UoOrCX5jUpxfT9BMwnDR4ShL_Xuymc1lTMGMaLigMOlyCrdjRBrEk6qnD6qyhN2VjM7KWdGw 8j3bUehQFY0F2g1mkUCMPpMh4YFWrqgfyDGu7BJmBNRzG2DyFm.MLt_F.4k5SaIGpAQfN1Pec4WZ nrebpcBBXbNMHRJ.WuNRyim08Su2DC3Q288.lYwNgpaiuRPDxe5C2jOqrowbB6vQJlz8KthdVLWY mgbp2QHPvOgSdBJS_IcURrEhrhbm9ZutaosdF044_Pe1HnhT0n78bGI3W5eA4295NXhXLFLrr898 - Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 03:19:29 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 03:19:13 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Hrpc Message-ID: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12406 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.92 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 03:19:32 -0000 All, We have been discussing the pros and cons of blocking content. You may be interested to see news that: "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk of being fined. The regulation would affect Twitter, Facebook and YouTube among others. The crackdown would lead to the EU abandoning its current approach - where the firms self-police - in favour of explicit rules." https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45247169 I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if people feel that this has implications for human rights and protocols. (I believe it does!) BTW, I have talked with the ombudsteam about my concerns with the safety of discussion on this list. I am assured that vigorous discussion and multiple points of view are indeed welcome. Of course, people should not attack others personally or demonize them. If we can, we should seek to listen and understand the grain of truth in what the other is saying instead of trying to just win the argument. This is the IETF at its best. Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From nobody Fri Sep 14 02:01:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB361277CC for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 02:01:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=D0eUrJ94; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=Jk/oNgRX Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ocABBkcVVk2I for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 02:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5C8A127148 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 02:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5369ABD156 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 09:01:09 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1536915669; bh=rYx7LB85vQsecArl6T1aniHEBKMsUsgggWiFB65aTfw=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=D0eUrJ94JcBqMFFV0iH1j1C6/sXb8uLVE6/6c+xmkAa+h4zmO0AgFPEhqYYip1Y7C jTaHns7+y+7Mx4LtdLBNfHRb6/ux4EuJP9iBW00xWERnwyjUq5d8ZnYDA2mkoZgwIY 1DZMeekh4dQcqJnOygvex/BIZwyh4UyW4UcN8Q14= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8I-yEkJP1JyE for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 09:01:03 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:00:56 -0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1536915663; bh=rYx7LB85vQsecArl6T1aniHEBKMsUsgggWiFB65aTfw=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=Jk/oNgRXOfw4Ru20qKgr8HTaxNYI9sNI0OdF9Ge8+aFrYwdG4+sSOoJB6dN4tyQPI 70zQnAH5Md9O+zWT8EjhldvetYS6ubu2rRX6rpW34fgsjCF+16Vj4/San7682h5FeH uOzIGEixzue+wXkPfyr3jwSMYw+80GMBKEjfvaeY= From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 09:01:43 -0000 Dear colleagues, On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk of being fined. > […] > I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if people feel that this has implications for human rights > and protocols. (I believe it does!) Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_. Is there a useful distinction to be drawn? If so, where is it? Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Fri Sep 14 02:20:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29EB81277CC for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 02:19:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X9sgopq8N_a8 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 02:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63B59127148 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 02:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g0kGY-0005al-KG for hrpc@irtf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:19:55 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAHNJU1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QG1heWZpcnN0Lm9yZz7CwJgEEwECAEICGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo 9WUFCRAV234ACgkQDDKicb08x4DklAf+ODKRmP6C2MnBz6vL8N8l3vZJUqoRcYXTn3uTpT05 Wou87ZIZ/P/OV2/uOMKkczLQQydj5S8PxbLTeg+U5f/63hdy99ON+K2b4izg7Qasdl1SqXTH q1pmhbrcbLbVKDJ345fdEg7RuMnv4gd3EaT/yQa99zHy8JHaBKaPEUQAa65HTt2Sy2c6L6BA aMZx1TOZ9/cZ7L1gJyytJbEyvg/JLOatJEI4rewUWU2TMSGJijwjAUBagwDPWyxpz+vXdKsD tqRTpY4xvXaeUQo0QXf0c5j1Gcglzv7ywZcyz1MGD1aLS9/CqeB3I4EMbvH/33LS3jNkfKbV XOTSjmo7l22CNc7ATQRMdE1nAQgA4mpP2LjFuAW2li9FPbDYOMzt0MtThXsnvHyY0fDv8FlU qnKgPrMY80VHntnxwqepFS3ncunVX4ipq+fadta+LHpTnbJSmlphBrc9qGJxqcjwf4yo35Xh OXCJFwnaoAwIX237lXRe4Xh6X4VMuJt8jiZdvgpbk/whvQH2grcq8KjCcy1iuL5pBl8ZwYG/ dphitFhQdqEcnc/krIqG4KQgKiUi3K/GR0OeEmw/cscWD7/CLEo7eHiaGQhSOyDQbM+Iu2o/ 6uMXMUPsYlMMqgmVL68zMacO3PE17jx0rQ8oZ7CpBY8YZWOWrzXrtFT8JO9guuCPsvd4KT6y 97y9LRJlPQARAQABwsB8BBgBAgAmAhsMFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo9WYF CRAV238ACgkQDDKicb08x4DU4QgAmlyBlFhfU0jpkbyD3HQ+3CJqWdBT422pVIrj3qNT2ehy fWO66Muidmd4Y279uV3p3TQEJOQvnV7FVAC9+bI7AdBy00BAjHgJ5eSQZxKTXUoeeBAsTZHN /HaHewjYWHMvCuuzir/Wt3A6Cehh8gp9I/Vg+oL3dTldVqqgZLgnA83bT/R8fI/e85LDlpdx KJ0+uy/grg3AbH7LUUrmMIC2iO8mQWYuNlizsUZLFvJhCAU2c5l8B5mv2BoWFhL+l7mmNcdF bwBFXon7Ea1jkCnbWVxtXkPYkcuWuMSTJswn9HhZVJWjUonKqUZKAb9PxRzC9crZ+X14tQT3 iJt2a4ZM4w== Message-ID: <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 12:19:51 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: dfea3049d3b923820beb462d65569822 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 09:19:59 -0000 On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, >=20 > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete >> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk >> of being fined. >>=20 >=20 > [=E2=80=A6] >=20 >> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if >> people feel that this has implications for human rights and >> protocols. (I believe it does!) >=20 > Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond=20 > the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be=20 > interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which=20 > is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_. Is > there a useful distinction to be drawn? If so, where is it? >=20 We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow for ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments. It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower layers. -Mallory --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Fri Sep 14 03:41:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F690130E12 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 03:41:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EpV0bwe5l6H5 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 03:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x233.google.com (mail-qt0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B5D5126DBF for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 03:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x233.google.com with SMTP id k38-v6so8212713qtk.11 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 03:41:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=WemJHZ4nOBSf7TlggZSrffs331FIzCyZrXlsA5grDeQ=; b=csMiADSzqm+3TI1471cpfQWUyNbsn4gR+pfJmTy04FxEY3ZBUOdjNGjXzv+KzjSqBg uYqhbglLm5sJ4YyjFWgaktTU1q1DNTQjQ6a8+mgwyQ1XPPhIMQHw0Ff/WG53ojlsuNgg 8y0I9W7WR4QqmKLpHACCyq3e0PY61C10P+PEe155i9sOK/iWtfFvJVIcORDV0ICoFGhe 2Yk7J6g4ZNCmxgMwrpT8Z/Z0yVqgg23J9ejx81eQaMX9CRjqVzUpFgLvYiYl6IJLcSxX 9EQbtcBLvJPZ4AeR/nDuFYNvQ/3E5BgCPoKTK7LnD4qxvJInAa/SmofmTvUAxhcoxIWp zshg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=WemJHZ4nOBSf7TlggZSrffs331FIzCyZrXlsA5grDeQ=; b=RhlXBEsMfrDpA14KMwusO7fsY7qem3rkjuW6TGdeDg69GPQeOq+nMXSlHq9x/qMK58 6v4lCtEcyA2BEOd90XH0Ca8esZ7asskbUe5A3LF/TZa04vhsBrZgXNWoNYgfENmtrkJG PFOfr5pqDgMKHz97CARE1Oe2u1dWkR0T+85a7mtgs5bgdIlRiP4MCaM1OGXT6BhUQad3 Cnodx0Impka4z/Hqs9eHuNR5HXyT+YFwi1pZQGuVVVi0AZJ4FosvfIxYx5dtWMVwpqPf 8lb4LiLORJ1n8tRfnyuYNfyBEO/wv0MsEcpsjs/IPfBMmFy8jfbbb1gy5llIaRpoMzN/ g5GA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BMSS8Lzb8gwvVG94matUV+xMYl7eafRT4YOmyvUa2aXM2NzlO9 h/prITJbjf5f6oV8Ott75KFoJ7dn X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdYkGSVDOvGZKGABteEYp0s+NTdGSLbhFUGd+z8r0XwHXb76JcvOGLzJQ98Ai2qdNpnvYsUC9w== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:28ee:: with SMTP id j43-v6mr8241111qtj.57.1536921662031; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 03:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-196-109.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p5-v6sm3578417qkd.81.2018.09.14.03.41.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Sep 2018 03:41:01 -0700 (PDT) To: Nalini J Elkins , Hrpc References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <3d4e6100-d43d-0892-c268-e04ce4e5d01b@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:41:01 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:41:06 -0000 Hi Nalini, The EU is also instituting controls on third party facilitation of dissemination of=C2=A0 copyrighted material.=C2=A0 https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/13/17854158/eu-copyright-directive-articl= e-13-11-internet-censorship-google As to the actions you raise, they arguably enhance a broad array of human rights - especially those relating to mitigating racism and xenophobia, crime against children and women, disrupting elections, and similar "black ops."=C2=A0 Indeed, essentially every nation recognizes th= at content can effectively constitute malware when it is purposely instituted for objectives that go beyond expression of views.=C2=A0 In so= me ways, the FSB-GRU attacks on national electoral processes, as well as Trump's fostering of racism and xenophobia movements worldwide, have underscored a need to institute mass communication controls to provide an essential balance among=C2=A0 human rights.=C2=A0 Human rights include= a lot more than just expression. -t=C2=A0 On 13-Sep-18 11:19 PM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > All,=20 > > We have been discussing the pros and cons of blocking content.=20 > > You may be interested to see news that:=20 > > "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete extrem= ist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk of being fine= d.=20 > > The regulation would affect Twitter, Facebook and YouTube among others.= =20 > > The crackdown would lead to the EU abandoning its current approach - wh= ere the firms self-police - in favour of explicit rules."=20 > > https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45247169=20 > > > I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if peo= ple feel that this has implications for human rights=20 > and protocols. (I believe it does!)=20 > > BTW, I have talked with the ombudsteam about my concerns with the safet= y of discussion on this list. I am assured that=20 > vigorous discussion and multiple points of view are indeed welcome. Of= course, people should not attack others personally=20 > or demonize them. If we can, we should seek to listen and understand t= he grain of truth in what the other is saying=20 > instead of trying to just win the argument.=20 > > This is the IETF at its best.=20 > > =20 > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc From nobody Fri Sep 14 04:00:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F87130E2D for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 04:00:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d_aFnDkJ5M9U for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 04:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22d.google.com (mail-qt0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F40C130E26 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 04:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id m13-v6so8309344qth.1 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 04:00:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=GcBd1hOM/Oknhby2seC3W4ZMjH7eEJqjPfj7jmhEeG4=; b=XR2Aj2hJwBMqICRp/dew+Vp+j61z9jYa9XPigBK5QNDabPNrLgLn0fyyQ3cxbG0bVX lSwW326kAI8hQ8CckPIW/onO4E6FmjjQADdWbh2y6+MijjNh4hFfYUM3j1l3BZFYbSS2 iAsKIuIfBORsWskioHdNMqehvDT81IH0rz/CleD1N2y9UKO+TlosDQkpYby9CuanC13P XgStvQWYDEIbf6dtiY2+2A+kRvOJoWybevTuTNY6TiT/578EtduC2E+CU/BI5Ck9haLH AyuqHR1RQ/WdwUHq3tbqTNEbet0M2S+VK65zuzSjojw7lZsdOs6yqoJbIDKus2JEWbvg tZbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=GcBd1hOM/Oknhby2seC3W4ZMjH7eEJqjPfj7jmhEeG4=; b=CVuFzyzvuJkQ+KT0ybTfr0rGrFpRtEisnB1GqVCtlGcYz6n3zimmImtWuw/qAw63sO Nwv1Mj/XvpMJOVvI3x/CZYulOY/d5bahblNJV0trDDCILapEAZfYQL0NW9r+tyHOdOAP d2io8MNxjbfQ+xnvgje6rTLxfU+QxZ99QJP/1IVjkk0FOfV7xeYybwHGZT3wYYXifUJ1 m9fNQdtHDCz5Zb1BaZq7+fFvHt4NaJR4pT5Mb3LE7DjrV4GCEmWoYUcOv6p+9xgQ8oJm dEgBHuDDgHDdtax1GlVNXnvJ1yc0kGhzq2tvw0IXNO8C6ZHbSk1k2RcwEUKzE6TDzG0g WG3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BJ4Tvjm/shiSYK2JyrW2YH+zT3nt+kO4NQ0yMoaLtPws2iIhpB +GOdaMNsvu15Pm7KSDwrmg9B9ToM X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdYx2YiJPTD7gtn7LnCkN1Iobk201brux2s91Udq16cSSkUE+bdH80kHb996F9P2ur3vr7uw/Q== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:95f7:: with SMTP id t52-v6mr8431869qvt.246.1536922823644; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 04:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-196-109.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p4-v6sm4630806qkl.41.2018.09.14.04.00.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Sep 2018 04:00:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <0deb75b8-dd1d-4844-616d-e4dfe843810e@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 07:00:22 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:00:32 -0000 Hi Mallory, That anarchy mode tends not to work well.=C2=A0 While motivated activists= may find a home in the IETF, the vast array of mainstream industry standards bodies which produce the specifications that are deployed in network and cloud infrastructures , will not support that activity.=C2=A0 Additionall= y, national and international legal systems can readily institute combinations of regulatory, tort, and contractual controls that significantly raise the risks and penalties for unlawful business conduct= =2E=C2=A0 Dialogue and working on balance among competing requirements generally works best. -t On 14-Sep-18 5:19 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote: > On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: >> Dear colleagues, >> >> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >>> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete >>> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk >>> of being fined. >>> >> [=E2=80=A6] >> >>> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if >>> people feel that this has implications for human rights and >>> protocols. (I believe it does!) >> Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond=20 >> the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be=20 >> interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which=20 >> is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_. Is >> there a useful distinction to be drawn? If so, where is it? >> > We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow fo= r > ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments. > > It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments= > to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards developmen= t > try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, > like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to > precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower > layers. > > -Mallory From nobody Fri Sep 14 06:14:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED78130E39 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:14:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hq5PL4-3oPdN for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EDA512F295 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g0nvd-0006mI-8n for hrpc@irtf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:14:33 +0200 To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:14:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 523f42b60907f92a5b98f162865e3e4b Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:14:37 -0000 Might be of interest: ‘Master/Slave’ Terminology Was Removed from Python Programming Language https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8x7akv/masterslave-terminology-was-removed-from-python-programming-language Also warrants the question whether there are parallels in vocabulary used in the IETF. Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Sep 14 06:19:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA8CE12F295; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:19:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UfA3i5ylGCMJ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 227F4130EDB; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w8EDJ1fU098713; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:19:01 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id B7AB7205B0B; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:19:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A77E5205A7D; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:19:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w8EDJ0gW012581; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:19:01 +0200 To: Amelia Andersdotter , Hrpc , its@ietf.org References: <32d8c171-2586-e2db-7cc6-26c3385b6946@article19.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <882e4a44-4842-8d14-50ed-425141f98ba4@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:19:00 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <32d8c171-2586-e2db-7cc6-26c3385b6946@article19.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [ipwave] RFC8280 Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-25 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:19:29 -0000 Dear Amelia, Thank you for the Human Rights Review of the IPv6-over-OCB draft version 25. In this email I address 'part 1' of the comments. Alex Le 07/09/2018 à 22:49, Amelia Andersdotter a écrit : > Dear all, > > As part of efforts in the Human Rights Protocol Considerations (HRPC) > group, I have reviewed the human rights considerations (RFC 8280) in > IPv6-over-OCB v25. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/25/ > > I've briefly reviewed v26 of the document, and find that the general > recommendations and observations below still hold in general. The review > is ended with an ERRATA (editorial remarks). > > The below text has been sent to the author of the document on September > 4, and some comments were received today (September 7). In this > submission, I'm hoping to open up for input from the larger community. > > best regards, > > Amelia > > # Summary > =============================== > > I understand that Sections 6.2.1 (Connectivity), 6.2.3 (Content > agnosticism), 6.2.6 (Censorship Resistenace), 6.2.8 (Heterogeneity > support) and 6.2.18 (Adaptability) of RFC8280 are taken into account by > the draft. References in the draft on less accessible standards in > accordance with Section 6.2.7 (Open Standards) in RFC8280 follows a > previously submitted evaluation. > > I suggest expansions on topics related to Sections 6.2.2 (Privacy), > 6.2.4 (Security), 6.2.9 (Anonymity), 6.2.10 (Pseudonymity), 6.2.14 > (Reliability), 6.2.16 (Integrity) and 6.2.17 (Authenticity) in RFC8280. > > I do not identify any concerns raised by Sections 6.2.5 > (Internationalization), 6.2.11 (Accessibility), 6.2.12 (Localization) > and 6.2.19 (Outcome transparency) in RFC8280. > > # Topical human rights review > ==================== > > ## Part 1: Privacy, reliability, integrity and authenticity > =================================== > This part reviews IPv6-over-80211-OCB draft with respect to Sections > 6.2.2 (Privacy), 6.2.4 (Security), 6.2.9 (Anonymity), 6.2.10 > (Pseudonymity), 6.2.14 (Reliability), 6.2.16 (Integrity) and 6.2.17 > (Authenticity) in RFC8280. > > Privacy and security issues are raised in various places of the > documents, for instance in Section 1, Section 4.5, Section 5 and > Appendix C, D and F. HoIver, while they are raised, no specific > recommendations to mitigate concerns are made. It is only mentioned that > other documents and standards do propose risk mitigation strategies. I agree with the comment. To that end, I created a new "Privacy Considerations" subsection of the "Security Considerations" section, trying to gather most of the privacy discussion. The privacy considerations are raised in section "Privacy Considerations". The methods to address these privacy considerations (what you rightfully name 'risk mitigation strategies') are described in subsection "MAC Address Generation" and in section "SLAAC". If necessary, I can explain why both subsections are needed, and situated at two distinct places. > The considerations raised in Appendix F.3 regarding the reliability and > integrity of the transmission schemes seem like they could have a big > impact on what functionalities must be included in this draft. If the > IPv6 transmission itself needs to guarantee specified senders and > receivers, this would require different privacy trade-offs in the rest > of the document. I think the requirements in F.2 are necessary. They are necessary for future mechanisms of improving the basic works of IPv6-over-OCB. Ex.: this draft describes how IPv6 works basically over OCB. But future drafts would describe how a common channel is selected between two parties, among 6 possible, thanks to this req in F.3 to "converge to a common channel". That is why F.2 is there. That said, I take into account your remark that what these requirements require is not present in this draft, and I take into account an earlier comment that suggests the same; thus I will remove appendix F.2. The same reasoning applyes to appendifx F.3 "Multiple Interfaces" - I will remove F.3. [ll discussion, pseudonym topic and unique identifiability question - to be addressed] > > ## Part 2: Internationalization, accessibility and transparency > ======================================= > > The functions described in this draft do not appear to be impacted by > Sections 6.2.5 (Internationalization), 6.2.11 (Accessibility) or 6.2.12 > (Localization) in RFC8280. Similarly, the applicability of Section > 6.2.19 (Outcome transparency) in RFC8280 seems largely related to issues > relating to authenticity, reliability and integrity. > > # Recommendations: I will treat these recommendations soon. > ============== > > 1. Collect all references to privacy and security in one place. If > privacy and security is in Section 4.5, 5 and Appendix F (as specified > in Section 4.5), this should be noted in Section 1. Also, privacy and > security issues are only mentioned in this document: recommendations for > their resolution are not present. This should be reflected in the Section 1. > > 2. In Section 4, add a section named "Pseudonym handling" at the very > top, describing the issues raised in the final paragraph of Section 5. > Remove the last paragraph of Section 5. > > 3.  The potential privacy benefits of link-local addresses could be > raised, especially since OCB transmissions are not secure against > curious nodes. On the other hand, RFC5889 Section 6.1 states that > link-local addressing is discouraged for ad hoc IPv6 networks. These > trade-offs could be expanded upon. > > 4. In Section 4.3 and 4.5 it should be clarified what privacy benefits, > if any, are expected from using semantically obscure IIDs as proposed in > RFC7217. It will at least be relevant to clarify whether privacy > benefits could arise in contexts that are explicitly out of scope (such > as during forming, termination or handover), e.g. with respect to > parameter selection as specified in Appendix A of RFC7217. > > # References: > ========= > > [RFC8280] Research into Human Rights Protocol Considerations > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8280 > > ==# ERRATA: > ========= > > Neither the term IP-RSU nor the term IP-OBU defined in Section 2 are > actually used in the document. The term IP-RSU and the term IP-OBU are used in -25, ex. "The link model is the following: STA --- 802.11-OCB --- STA. In vehicular networks, STAs can be IP-RSUs and/or IP-OBUs." > In Section 2, definitions, the definition of IP-RSU can be made more > succinct by removing the second sentence (that is, remove "An IP-RSU has > at least two distinct IP-enabled interfaces; at least one interface is > operated in mode OCB of IEEE 802.11 and is IP-enabled."). I do not understand why removing that sentence? HAving two IP-enabled interfaces qualifies it as a router. It is important we say the IP-RSU is a router because: many deployed RSUs (not IP-RSU) are routers yet do not forward IP packets to the OCB interface; so, an IP-RSU would forward IP packets to the OCB interface if that IP-RSU is a router. It is circular, but it is positive, in the right direction: it allows to correct people who call an RSU a 'router' and suggest them to call it a 'router' _only_ if it forwards on the OCB interface too. That said, I agree the definition could be made more succinct. TO that end, here is one part that is redundant: "at least one interface is operated in mode OCB of IEEE 802.11" and "the wireless PHY/MAC layer of at least one of its IP-enabled interfaces is configured to operate in 802.11-OCB mode". For this reason, I will remove "at least one interface is operated in mode OCB of IEEE 802.11", and so the definition will be a little more succinct. > Section 4.5 only needs to recommend following the procedures in RFC8064 > once. I agree. In next rev we only refer once to RFC8064 in section 4.5. > In Appendix C, p. 26, 2nd to last paragraph, it is mentioned that MAC > re-addressing is described in IEEE-1609.4 Section 6.7. HoIver, in my > copy of IEEE-1609.4 this feature is described in Section 6.6. Ah! For confirmation - is your 1609.4 document the IEEE 1609.4-2016? (i.e. the document of year 2016). But looks as these versions change often. Maybe I want to remove the phrase "a relevant function is described in [1609...] ..." Alex From nobody Fri Sep 14 06:58:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066D3130E44 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:57:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id If9UGvRs0D3t for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic312-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic312-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.191.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D6F6130E34 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:57:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1536933472; bh=DGjg3BX8lxVIBimI7G1uFV0IU5DBNr9YonUffINOzyY=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=P4gKAWMZ7pO45AA49pVe2X9xRVyQhD63kJewfhN+DFwRHrEuhr2KauXLdZD5aJObbc/3onHbguOjDnG+7y1HO3SIrnPjNL7XxUD9Oz/9d8gHw5OgpA7I/rcjsFqFS3okLj1ww6GezqPfibLZaqcLpb1m/WBbVUHtnEJ/84Gwfy0jOFnUaia3Q0OZT1tUPS3gDC1IITnxAqKYokHgEvkkNsSk8sNk7GykK+ElwZBYH856aEZIeb74PFUzshuXsWh+Y7cvZm+UKh8BmoeNBADsBt6558+EJl0ZJQeVhw00AHTfvT9905MBPZkCcjJp/WBjthzaY9RhFQePQqNJLq+AAA== X-YMail-OSG: PJ3aC6EVM1nT1qCZqI_DhEnrz2dZl1Aak7C.uzLvkZhfhLDSX2fxLXiZKMBqFQ1 NJxcBNV4JelUgodX_8yNf104X7s62zfoXbnytysczLzGhGNIx.c9pkdl3LQGIGCFlef50qJyqKvY Y0e5vYiqdBSuhcw6_xdvx7vBXdRJ4Zj9rSGgmEk5BWj2DRcQ_WahQpQuyhZKpqEvB2MpR5wXa4ep meuJG53UWTS0bBgW678iGMVjqDTVMtFj_Z7QR44k7nmXBl_Cq9fYJVlNb9gWihNPBNqZElPLoySx h9AqgfKx.9LUq2SLSu37iC7C4N.lqogdFe612SDxdooq9InMq3bs4qTvJootXYTCLpnv2RlNp123 JaA3CUculc1H0gW2JOTijEKYbBgDJrmuT9j.VujR.jRQVoV2ufBmsRYHP_z1aYz2ZSoaOHxieZjL ZujbJNlvrvNnNOc_ViZ2hDGZ2BXwUifuvzk.Msr88aRoq7ad4_R_HWoNli7XULy.PkiuyeOdc388 by27ehgk_BxHucgnZdEfjAcIyMtQ8s3XaBv.spTN3J6HQWXQhFV3zEeTiCutZIxGhZm_kCuNgZtI LHWjXHx15FC_zt3kPXEp8B0_7DWbBIL_.Tp6ihioYyXQ_f8jtheYwR_w0NWjqRmLEUhdfGMxJVRc 4I8tia2u4f9mpq7BNXVfeb0sG1NaAv.OE5wQvQrjOOQ9gD76pCL8DQwKJoVF5vKUB7SPoTRVa.dX ROLANTFwBdZABUoOT3zzSbM.t6_oiBUIEtiUoptWUAJ67UFutWHd0SeEhBpHHpeHhg70KRoMDT8j eqbTrXWIQXo5G0SowCgN4PBVabdOZZ53hZtVw6sOMsf_X.vvNFKYph6z.U8L554BmSZ_HpkuBzMQ 6ZJBZfSueol4RPaJGqhJSzeRT8PiZToJNUzYMDnxMtgn26yBl1qtxkuyIuhFXy7Q16jRyM470XVd V03nKZedLNUgfD02U6SsdJxKIkBqme5R.EfDdxuLZIkuj9ZJYym5iAyWpxJTuRRIcYrpLE4M- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:57:52 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:57:31 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Mallory Knodel , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5344490_753226611.1536933451651" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12406 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.92 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:58:10 -0000 ------=_Part_5344490_753226611.1536933451651 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments > to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development > try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, > like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to > precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower > layers. I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead. I participated in a discussion at a think tank a while back where the topic= for discussion was:=C2=A0 (paraphrased by me) "When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be followed by = inevitable overreach by government to regulate?=C2=A0 And what might it be?= " The topic at hand happened to be encryption.=C2=A0 =C2=A0One can indeed ima= gine a scenario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for example= ) might have been prevented.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They may not understand the detail= s of the protocols but they may *think* they do. This is why=C2=A0I submit that control of content is indeed a set of topics= for engineers to be a part of the discussion.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Otherwise, as yo= u can see, others are doing it. The words you use "anti-censorship" and "resilience of content" might be co= nstrued as having a bias towards one side.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That is non-neutral. I wonder if we might find other words and a vocabulary / taxonomy for non-b= iased discussion?=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: Mallory Knodel To: hrpc@irtf.org=20 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content =20 On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, >=20 > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete >> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk >> of being fined. >>=20 >=20 > [=E2=80=A6] >=20 >> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if >> people feel that this has implications for human rights and >> protocols.=C2=A0 (I believe it does!) >=20 > Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond=20 > the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be=20 > interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which=20 > is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_.=C2=A0 Is > there a useful distinction to be drawn?=C2=A0 If so, where is it? >=20 We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow for ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments. It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower layers. -Mallory --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_5344490_753226611.1536933451651 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family: "Helvetica Neue", "Segoe UI"= , Helvetica, Arial, "Lucida Grande", sans-serif; font-size: 13px;= " id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1536932418861_15897">> It seems to me that if = more and more measures are passed by governments
> to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and sta= ndards development
> try to push= more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content,
> like this group, then at some point that dive= rgence is going to
> precipitate= efforts to influence design and development at these lower
> layers.

I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead= .

I participated in = a discussion at a think tank a while back where the topic for discussion wa= s:  (paraphrased by me)

"When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be foll= owed by inevitable overreach by government to regulate?  And what migh= t it be?"

The topic a= t hand happened to be encryption.   One can indeed imagine a scen= ario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for example) might hav= e been prevented.   They may not understand the details of the pr= otocols but they may *think* they do.

This is why I submit that control of conten= t is indeed a set of topics for engineers to be a part of the discussion.&n= bsp;  Otherwise, as you can see, others are doing it.

The words you use "anti-cen= sorship" and "resilience of content" might be construed as having a bias to= wards one side.   That is non-neutral.

 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Fou= nder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Mallory Knodel <mallory@= article19.org>
To: = hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: F= riday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Conten= t

On= 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> Dear colleag= ues,
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at= 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
>> "The E= uropean Commission is planning to order websites to delete
>> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the ris= k
>> of being fined.
>> >
> [=E2=80=A6]
= >
>> I hope that we can have an interesting dis= cussion on this topic, if
>> people feel that this = has implications for human rights and
>> protocols.=   (I believe it does!)
>
> = Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond
> the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it cou= ld be
> interesting to discuss whether attempts to re= gulate _content_ (which
> is what the proposal is) ar= e attempts to affect _protocols_.  Is
> there a u= seful distinction to be drawn?  If so, where is it?
= >

We saw from the PRISM leak that = companies implemented tools to allow for
ease of access t= o user data by Five Eyes governments.

= It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments
to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards= development
try to push more and more anti-censorship an= d resilience of content,
like this group, then at some po= int that divergence is going to
precipitate efforts to in= fluence design and development at these lower
layers.

-Mallory
--
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org=
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0= C32 A271 BD3C C780


______________________________________________= _
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org=
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/h= rpc


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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v31-v6sm5763922qta.96.2018.09.14.07.29.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Sep 2018 07:29:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Nalini J Elkins , Mallory Knodel , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:29:54 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CC826B9207873B02F487D648" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:30:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CC826B9207873B02F487D648 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Nalini, If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies.=C2=A0 David Kahn in h= is bible on the subject, The Code Breakers, traces the efforts back to the Egyptian government era, and his reference collection donated to the U.S. National Cryptologic Museum includes 16th century handbooks.=C2=A0 O= n the network side, my own historical compilation was published last year by Brookings.=C2=A0 https://www.lawfareblog.com/anthony-rutkowski-international-signals-intel= ligence-law-provisions-and-history-lawfare-research Nearly every country has similar collections, and ETSI TC CYBER maintains a list of all the different national cryptologic and reference collections.=C2=A0 What is super cool is the London Science's Museum's exhibit being created for next year.=C2=A0 https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/gchq-celebrate-centenary-2019 Today, the use cases of concern are less terrorists than a major State adversary such as the FSB or GRU using encrypted tunnels to disrupt the foundational institutions of society that have a profound adverse impact on all human rights.=C2=A0 See, e.g., https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/from-bitly-to-x-ag= ent-how-gru-hackers-targeted-the-2016-presidential-election/ Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right to free expression of content via encrypted tunnels? -t On 14-Sep-18 9:57 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > > It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governmen= ts > > to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards developm= ent > > try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, > > like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to > > precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lowe= r > > layers. > > I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead.. > > I participated in a discussion at a think tank a while back where the > topic for discussion was:=C2=A0 (paraphrased by me) > > "When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be > followed by inevitable overreach by government to regulate?=C2=A0 And w= hat > might it be?" > > The topic at hand happened to be encryption.=C2=A0 =C2=A0One can indeed= imagine > a scenario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for > example) might have been prevented.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They may not understand= the > details of the protocols but they may *think* they do. > > This is why=C2=A0I submit that control of content is indeed a set of to= pics > for engineers to be a part of the discussion.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Otherwise, as= you can > see, others are doing it. > > The words you use "anti-censorship" and "resilience of content" might > be construed as having a bias towards one side.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That is non= -neutral. > > I wonder if we might find other words and a vocabulary / taxonomy for > non-biased discussion? > =C2=A0 > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > *From:* Mallory Knodel > *To:* hrpc@irtf.org > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM > *Subject:* Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content > > On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > >> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete > >> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk > >> of being fined. > >> > > > > [=E2=80=A6] > > > >> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if > >> people feel that this has implications for human rights and > >> protocols.=C2=A0 (I believe it does!) > > > > Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond > > the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be > > interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which > > is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_.=C2=A0 Is= > > there a useful distinction to be drawn?=C2=A0 If so, where is it? > > > > We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow fo= r > ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments. > > It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments= > to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards developmen= t > try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, > like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to > precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower > layers. > > -Mallory > --=20 > Mallory Knodel > Head of Digital :: article19.org > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C= 780 > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --------------CC826B9207873B02F487D648 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Nalini,

If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies.  David Kahn in his bible on the subject, The Code Breakers, traces the efforts back to the Egyptian government era, and his reference collection donated to the U.S. National Cryptologic Museum includes 16th century handbooks.  On the network side, my own historical compilation was published last year by Brookings.  https://www.lawfareblog.com/anthony-rutkowski-international-signals-intelligence-law-provisions-and-history-lawfare-research

Nearly every country has similar collections, and ETSI TC CYBER maintains a list of all the different national cryptologic and reference collections.  What is super cool is the London Science's Museum's exhibit being created for next year.  https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/gchq-celebrate-centenary-2019

Today, the use cases of concern are less terrorists than a major State adversary such as the FSB or GRU using encrypted tunnels to disrupt the foundational institutions of society that have a profound adverse impact on all human rights.  See, e.g., https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/from-bitly-to-x-agent-how-gru-hackers-targeted-the-2016-presidential-election/

Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right to free expression of content via encrypted tunnels?

-t


On 14-Sep-18 9:57 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments
> to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development
> try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content,
> like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to
> precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower
> layers.

I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead..

I participated in a discussion at a think tank a while back where the topic for discussion was:  (paraphrased by me)

"When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be followed by inevitable overreach by government to regulate?  And what might it be?"

The topic at hand happened to be encryption.   One can indeed imagine a scenario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for example) might have been prevented.   They may not understand the details of the protocols but they may *think* they do.

This is why I submit that control of content is indeed a set of topics for engineers to be a part of the discussion.   Otherwise, as you can see, others are doing it.

The words you use "anti-censorship" and "resilience of content" might be construed as having a bias towards one side.   That is non-neutral.

I wonder if we might find other words and a vocabulary / taxonomy for non-biased discussion?
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content

On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
>> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete
>> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk
>> of being fined.
>>
>
> […]
>
>> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if
>> people feel that this has implications for human rights and
>> protocols.  (I believe it does!)
>
> Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond
> the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be
> interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which
> is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_.  Is
> there a useful distinction to be drawn?  If so, where is it?
>

We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow for
ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments.

It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments
to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development
try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content,
like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to
precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower
layers.

-Mallory
--
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc




_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

--------------CC826B9207873B02F487D648-- From nobody Fri Sep 14 07:36:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1807A130DE7 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 07:36:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AaszYFu_YYNu for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 07:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C17DE1286E3 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 07:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F67BE4D; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:36:02 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dfti5uu3VKy8; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:36:02 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (bilbo.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39AB8BE47; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:35:56 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1536935756; bh=asFOf5OL+mRespJwiUH6U7jgKF/CFeTDl9sWupHN7yM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=hz4WobKvzIm7PL87OOOKKd6VSLnyuxe6d2v3jNVT0aJRmGHCctO8qcvpP9nIr6s6I j4mrnZ+Qrq9/6mBwy7v7/sKPofuLxA+PL4MswhTiNz3wfTTI3Mwxz2mJFiKCIX8x5i e4JajJ91dsBYT4T7Yi6rHWaz7dQVdWxSJa4QMPlo= To: Tony Rutkowski , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzTJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxM7BTQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <82f91c42-0239-e8d8-f7fe-f311f5865133@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:35:54 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HcNrYF8pFzHnTYq7ZfN5t12ds2owFfH5z" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:36:07 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --HcNrYF8pFzHnTYq7ZfN5t12ds2owFfH5z Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="K9TJ33H9NFaOMDUP9KgqQQsEY0ax2UMYi"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Tony Rutkowski , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <82f91c42-0239-e8d8-f7fe-f311f5865133@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> --K9TJ33H9NFaOMDUP9KgqQQsEY0ax2UMYi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3DCC83AEE610C8D9D32E7C4F" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3DCC83AEE610C8D9D32E7C4F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14/09/18 15:29, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right to= > free expression of content via encrypted tunnels? Gotta say, that seems like trolling and nothing more. The IETF's attitude to encryption isn't really worth debating here IMO, that's been done a number of times with predictable points made and results each time and I know of no new facts that'd IMO affect the outcome the inevitable next time we have to re-do that debate. 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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m51-v6sm5001515qtc.85.2018.09.14.07.48.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Sep 2018 07:48:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephen Farrell , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> <82f91c42-0239-e8d8-f7fe-f311f5865133@cs.tcd.ie> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <48998ad0-e1f1-0e6a-b410-0f9d177e66e6@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:48:09 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <82f91c42-0239-e8d8-f7fe-f311f5865133@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:48:14 -0000 Hi Stephen, New use cases emerge.=C2=A0 Times change.=C2=A0 Organizations adapt.=C2=A0= Generally continuing dialogue on these matters is good - unless the expression of ideas does not apply in hrpc - which would indeed be ironic. :-) It would also be interesting the parse the anthropomorphic assertion "the IETF's attitude."=C2=A0 Perhaps we can get beyond characterizing vie= ws we don't like as "trolling." --t On 14-Sep-18 10:35 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On 14/09/18 15:29, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >> Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right t= o >> free expression of content via encrypted tunnels? > Gotta say, that seems like trolling and nothing more. > > The IETF's attitude to encryption isn't really worth > debating here IMO, that's been done a number of times > with predictable points made and results each time and > I know of no new facts that'd IMO affect the outcome > the inevitable next time we have to re-do that debate. > > S. From nobody Fri Sep 14 07:56:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0108A130DEB for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 07:56:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tqm7X-DyZLAy for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 07:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAB8C124BE5 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 07:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA0F2BE3E; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:56:50 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id usvi-ExbHa28; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:56:50 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (bilbo.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8DB8DBE39; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:56:50 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1536937010; bh=97pk48v7RUPb0cBJ1uddl+F0f2tt2E+0ecYfWiU/vGE=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=mq0IYV7Li0/LR3yWXXcU47kncxod395cXiRCWqDbfOsLSYBUIRv2pVwXMkkrBUDz2 /MORGG4vvwBWWNnPSdQs2ptMNuv5vbKMPg++5gAYLcLofkDrWfLrmhP5QQXMyHwSr5 BE9zftyv5NVTFQeXPQCwx/5Pz5VwKgb9R5fI8XDs= To: Tony Rutkowski , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> <82f91c42-0239-e8d8-f7fe-f311f5865133@cs.tcd.ie> <48998ad0-e1f1-0e6a-b410-0f9d177e66e6@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzTJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxM7BTQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <97062685-95b4-cb47-6cbe-78974e589bf9@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:56:49 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <48998ad0-e1f1-0e6a-b410-0f9d177e66e6@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="y285XOPEYjFIqKp2MT5DBHDkF2l5xkBCM" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:56:56 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --y285XOPEYjFIqKp2MT5DBHDkF2l5xkBCM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="lL8dfCgWC3sgFDRb810zdELGjjjzAcxw1"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Tony Rutkowski , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <97062685-95b4-cb47-6cbe-78974e589bf9@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> <82f91c42-0239-e8d8-f7fe-f311f5865133@cs.tcd.ie> <48998ad0-e1f1-0e6a-b410-0f9d177e66e6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <48998ad0-e1f1-0e6a-b410-0f9d177e66e6@gmail.com> --lL8dfCgWC3sgFDRb810zdELGjjjzAcxw1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A94FF568C2A0A6768DBABB05" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A94FF568C2A0A6768DBABB05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14/09/18 15:48, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > Hi Stephen, >=20 > New use cases emerge.=C2=A0 Times change.=C2=A0 Organizations adapt.=C2= =A0=20 All true, but I don't see any relevant points for the issue to hand. > Generally > continuing dialogue on these matters is good=20 In this context, new arguments and facts are worth considering. I've yet to see you raise any that are new and relevant to how IETF protocols deal with confidentiality. Repetition of old discussions with no new relevant inputs is not useful in the IETF/IRTF context. Generally I'd consider such repetition as disruptive, but that's for the chairs and others to decide. > - unless the expression of > ideas does not apply in hrpc - which would indeed be ironic. :-) >=20 > It would also be interesting the parse the anthropomorphic assertion > "the IETF's attitude."=C2=A0 Perhaps we can get beyond characterizing v= iews > we don't like as "trolling." I didn't say you were trolling because we disagree. I said that because of the sentence of yours that I quoted. I see no reason to re-evaluate my conclusion on that. S. >=20 > --t >=20 >=20 > On 14-Sep-18 10:35 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> On 14/09/18 15:29, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >>> Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right = to >>> free expression of content via encrypted tunnels? >> Gotta say, that seems like trolling and nothing more. >> >> The IETF's attitude to encryption isn't really worth >> debating here IMO, that's been done a number of times >> with predictable points made and results each time and >> I know of no new facts that'd IMO affect the outcome >> the inevitable next time we have to re-do that debate. >> >> S. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --------------A94FF568C2A0A6768DBABB05 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY 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15:12:57 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Tony Rutkowski , Mallory Knodel , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <196203167.5405723.1536937977769@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5405722_49866758.1536937977764" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12406 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.92 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:13:06 -0000 ------=_Part_5405722_49866758.1536937977764 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony, >If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a long= time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies My point was not to reopen the encryption battle but to note that policy ma= kers often lack understanding of technology as a general statement.=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: Tony Rutkowski To: Nalini J Elkins ; Mallory Knodel ; "hrpc@irtf.org" =20 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content =20 Hi Nalini, If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring= for a long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies.=C2=A0 David Kahn= in his bible on the subject, The Code Breakers, traces the efforts back to= the Egyptian government era, and his reference collection donated to the U= .S. National Cryptologic Museum includes 16th century handbooks.=C2=A0 On t= he network side, my own historical compilation was published last year by B= rookings.=C2=A0https://www.lawfareblog.com/anthony-rutkowski-international-= signals-intelligence-law-provisions-and-history-lawfare-research Nearly every country has similar collections, and ETSI TC CYBER maintains= a list of all the different national cryptologic and reference collections= .=C2=A0 What is super cool is the London Science's Museum's exhibit being c= reated for next year.=C2=A0 https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/gchq-celeb= rate-centenary-2019 Today, the use cases of concern are less terrorists tha= n a major State adversary such as the FSB or GRU using encrypted tunnels to= disrupt the foundational institutions of society that have a profound adve= rse impact on all human rights.=C2=A0 See, e.g.,https://arstechnica.com/inf= ormation-technology/2018/07/from-bitly-to-x-agent-how-gru-hackers-targeted-= the-2016-presidential-election/ Can we agree that State black ops agencies = do not have a human right to free expression of content via encrypted tunne= ls? -t =20 On 14-Sep-18 9:57 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: =20 =20 > It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments > to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development > try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, > like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to > precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower > layers.=20 I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead..=20 I participated in a discussion at a think tank a while back where the top= ic for discussion was:=C2=A0 (paraphrased by me)=20 "When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be followed b= y inevitable overreach by government to regulate?=C2=A0 And what might it b= e?"=20 The topic at hand happened to be encryption.=C2=A0 =C2=A0One can indeed i= magine a scenario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for examp= le) might have been prevented.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They may not understand the deta= ils of the protocols but they may *think* they do.=20 This is why=C2=A0I submit that control of content is indeed a set of topi= cs for engineers to be a part of the discussion.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Otherwise, as = you can see, others are doing it.=20 The words you use "anti-censorship" and "resilience of content" might be = construed as having a bias towards one side.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That is non-neutra= l.=20 I wonder if we might find other words and a vocabulary / taxonomy for non= -biased discussion? =C2=A0 Thanks, =20 Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360=20 =20 From: Mallory Knodel To: hrpc@irtf.org=20 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content =20 On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, >=20 > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete >> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk >> of being fined. >>=20 >=20 > [=E2=80=A6] >=20 >> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if >> people feel that this has implications for human rights and >> protocols.=C2=A0 (I believe it does!) >=20 > Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond=20 > the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be=20 > interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which=20 > is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_.=C2=A0 Is > there a useful distinction to be drawn?=C2=A0 If so, where is it? >=20 =20 We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow for ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments. =20 It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower layers. =20 -Mallory --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780= =20 =20 _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 =20 =20 ------=_Part_5405722_49866758.1536937977764 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family: "Helvetica Neue", "Segoe UI"= , Helvetica, Arial, "Lucida Grande", sans-serif; font-size: 13px;= ">Tony,

>If it's= any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a long time - = as well as evolution of the taxonomies

My point was not to reopen the encryption ba= ttle but to note that policy makers often lack understanding of technology = as a general statement.  
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
= CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831)= 659-8360


Fro= m: Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com>
To: Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elki= ns@insidethestack.com>; Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>; "h= rpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Med= ia for Terrorism Content

=
Hi Nalini,
If it's any comfort, = the encryption battles have been occurring for a long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies.  David Kahn in his bible on the subject, The Code Breakers, traces the efforts back to the Egyptian government era, and his reference collection donated to the U.S. National Cryptologic Museum includes 16th century handbooks.  On the network side, my own historical compilation was published last year by Brookings.  https://www.lawfareblog.com/anthony-rutkowski-international-signals-= intelligence-law-provisions-and-history-lawfare-research
Nearly every country = has similar collections, and ETSI TC CYBER maintains a list of all the different national cryptologic and reference collections.  What is super cool is the London Science= 's Museum's exhibit being created for next year.  https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/gchq-cel= ebrate-centenary-2019
Today, the use cases of concern are less terrorists than a major State adversary such as the FSB or GRU using encrypted tunnels to disrupt the foundational institutions of society that have a profound adverse impact on all human rights.  See, e.g., https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/from= -bitly-to-x-agent-how-gru-hackers-targeted-the-2016-presidential-election/<= /a>
Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right to free expression of content via encrypted tunnels?
-t

=
On 14-Sep-18 9:57 AM, Nalini J = Elkins wrote:
> It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments
> to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development
> try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content,=
> like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to > precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower
> layers.

I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead..

I participated in a discussion at a think tank a while back where the topic for discussion was:  (paraphrased by me)

"When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be followed by inevitable overreach by government to regulate?  And what might it be?"

The topic at hand happened to be encryption.   One can indeed imagine a scenario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for example) might have been prevented.   They may not understand the details of the protocols but they may *think* they do.

This is why I submit that control of content is indeed a set of topics for engineers to be a part of the discussion.   Otherwise, as you c= an see, others are doing it.

The words you use "anti-censorship" and "resilience of content" might be construed as having a bias towards one side.   That= is non-neutral.

I wonder if we might find other words and a vocabulary / taxonomy for non-biased discussion?
&nbs= p;


From: Mallory Knodel <mallory@a= rticle19.org>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content

On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote:<= br clear=3D"none"> > Dear colleagues,
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
>> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete
>> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk
>> of being fined.
>>
>
> [=E2=80=A6]
>
>> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if
>> people feel that this has implications for human rights and
>> protocols.  (I believe it does!)
>
> Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond
> the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be
> interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which
> is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_.  Is
> there a useful distinction to be drawn?  If so, where is it?
>

We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow for
ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments.

It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments
to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development
try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content,
like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to
precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower
layers.

-Mallory
--
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C= 32 A271 BD3C C780


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org<= /a>
https://www.irtf.org/mail= man/listinfo/hrpc




_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
=
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
=20


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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a185-v6sm4692787qkg.57.2018.09.14.08.14.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:14:05 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephen Farrell , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> <82f91c42-0239-e8d8-f7fe-f311f5865133@cs.tcd.ie> <48998ad0-e1f1-0e6a-b410-0f9d177e66e6@gmail.com> <97062685-95b4-cb47-6cbe-78974e589bf9@cs.tcd.ie> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <47b30305-ad21-e19b-47d3-4b6768e96c03@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:14:04 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <97062685-95b4-cb47-6cbe-78974e589bf9@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:14:09 -0000 Hi Stephen, The remit of the group suggests that the scope relates to "human rights" rather than the singularity of "confidentiality."=C2=A0 Indeed, that is n= ot clear what that is, and it is certainly not a human right.=C2=A0 The discussion which has been occurring certainly falls well within the scope of hrpc, and there are certainly significant new inputs that have emerged over the past year - even if you do hold a different view. Perhaps we can continue the dialogue without the threats to close group discussion of topics because someone perceives them as repetitious. --tony On 14-Sep-18 10:56 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On 14/09/18 15:48, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >> Hi Stephen, >> >> New use cases emerge.=C2=A0 Times change.=C2=A0 Organizations adapt.=C2= =A0=20 > All true, but I don't see any relevant points for the issue > to hand. > >> Generally >> continuing dialogue on these matters is good=20 > In this context, new arguments and facts are worth considering. > I've yet to see you raise any that are new and relevant to how > IETF protocols deal with confidentiality. Repetition of old > discussions with no new relevant inputs is not useful in the > IETF/IRTF context. Generally I'd consider such repetition as > disruptive, but that's for the chairs and others to decide. > >> - unless the expression of >> ideas does not apply in hrpc - which would indeed be ironic. :-) >> >> It would also be interesting the parse the anthropomorphic assertion >> "the IETF's attitude."=C2=A0 Perhaps we can get beyond characterizing = views >> we don't like as "trolling." > I didn't say you were trolling because we disagree. I said > that because of the sentence of yours that I quoted. I see > no reason to re-evaluate my conclusion on that. > > S. > >> --t >> >> >> On 14-Sep-18 10:35 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>> On 14/09/18 15:29, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >>>> Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right= to >>>> free expression of content via encrypted tunnels? >>> Gotta say, that seems like trolling and nothing more. >>> >>> The IETF's attitude to encryption isn't really worth >>> debating here IMO, that's been done a number of times >>> with predictable points made and results each time and >>> I know of no new facts that'd IMO affect the outcome >>> the inevitable next time we have to re-do that debate. >>> >>> S. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> From nobody Fri Sep 14 08:23:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C6B130E3D for ; 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Fri, 14 Sep 2018 16:22:56 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (bilbo.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 26EBABE39; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 16:22:56 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1536938576; bh=rEkqdQruAxfudxKK+ZCQtgSmIJPJ0/4XODYFryDcY0o=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=HmqbnQxmMSzzoMHGTvQKqd+iL0NWOFfhoZ0+Fh/KiNSF5n5Cj2vM3FzjBPEBgNeZ5 RHo8mqcYvekaDTNXX1UoDZL/PIN3jTpn8fTD5v0jVbyqnp+Ba5DYl4HiKzuGjAV+/S Lk55jCb8cFXwLp1jdJwJbvF2F05IeYkzjr1V8aV8= To: Tony Rutkowski , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> <82f91c42-0239-e8d8-f7fe-f311f5865133@cs.tcd.ie> <48998ad0-e1f1-0e6a-b410-0f9d177e66e6@gmail.com> <97062685-95b4-cb47-6cbe-78974e589bf9@cs.tcd.ie> <47b30305-ad21-e19b-47d3-4b6768e96c03@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <47b30305-ad21-e19b-47d3-4b6768e96c03@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IyhFt5FvZKa8W17sdxym5yI4qx80BYZYK" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:23:01 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --IyhFt5FvZKa8W17sdxym5yI4qx80BYZYK Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="dVJ8F9vP5LUQjA4yN88ic9sto0K3VqC8C"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Tony Rutkowski , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <91f0721e-9e5d-e496-b105-f1da61865096@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> <82f91c42-0239-e8d8-f7fe-f311f5865133@cs.tcd.ie> <48998ad0-e1f1-0e6a-b410-0f9d177e66e6@gmail.com> <97062685-95b4-cb47-6cbe-78974e589bf9@cs.tcd.ie> <47b30305-ad21-e19b-47d3-4b6768e96c03@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <47b30305-ad21-e19b-47d3-4b6768e96c03@gmail.com> --dVJ8F9vP5LUQjA4yN88ic9sto0K3VqC8C Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5BC773FFE437B6ECD47B82AF" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5BC773FFE437B6ECD47B82AF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14/09/18 16:14, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > Hi Stephen, >=20 > The remit of the group suggests that the scope relates to "human rights= " > rather than the singularity of "confidentiality."=20 You brought up "encrypted tunnels" in what I consider a purely troll-like manner. > Indeed, that is not > clear what that is, and it is certainly not a human right.=C2=A0 The > discussion which has been occurring certainly falls well within the > scope of hrpc, and there are certainly significant new inputs that have= > emerged over the past year - even if you do hold a different view. I did not say that all recent discussion was trolling. Just the sentence I quoted from you. > Perhaps we can continue the dialogue without the threats to close group= > discussion of topics because someone perceives them as repetitious. Sigh. I made no threats. I called you out for trolling. And with that I'm done on this sub-thread. S. >=20 > --tony >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 14-Sep-18 10:56 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> On 14/09/18 15:48, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >>> Hi Stephen, >>> >>> New use cases emerge.=C2=A0 Times change.=C2=A0 Organizations adapt.=C2= =A0=20 >> All true, but I don't see any relevant points for the issue >> to hand. >> >>> Generally >>> continuing dialogue on these matters is good=20 >> In this context, new arguments and facts are worth considering. >> I've yet to see you raise any that are new and relevant to how >> IETF protocols deal with confidentiality. Repetition of old >> discussions with no new relevant inputs is not useful in the >> IETF/IRTF context. Generally I'd consider such repetition as >> disruptive, but that's for the chairs and others to decide. >> >>> - unless the expression of >>> ideas does not apply in hrpc - which would indeed be ironic. :-) >>> >>> It would also be interesting the parse the anthropomorphic assertion >>> "the IETF's attitude."=C2=A0 Perhaps we can get beyond characterizing= views >>> we don't like as "trolling." >> I didn't say you were trolling because we disagree. I said >> that because of the sentence of yours that I quoted. I see >> no reason to re-evaluate my conclusion on that. >> >> S. >> >>> --t >>> >>> >>> On 14-Sep-18 10:35 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>>> On 14/09/18 15:29, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >>>>> Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human righ= t to >>>>> free expression of content via encrypted tunnels? >>>> Gotta say, that seems like trolling and nothing more. >>>> >>>> The IETF's attitude to encryption isn't really worth >>>> debating here IMO, that's been done a number of times >>>> with predictable points made and results each time and >>>> I know of no new facts that'd IMO affect the outcome >>>> the inevitable next time we have to re-do that debate. >>>> >>>> S. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 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header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sG1EPnlxezrC for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com (mail-pl1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A12C9130E27 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id s17-v6so4366255plp.7 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=dQ63YLrOjLQbrv2kGECheCyjhOlkwyfZRFSkARw++5U=; b=g435pDHBN427iaK1vfauYN+D8SEme1Y+Ax9TkeqMD9Zd0AVHntTQxhKxhwdikNjf5U 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ANB0VdY3+cEWGHXNipZFolXzp0gXc0yA4nalKhFvPpDLiuQCIU7daHoyS6Dv/MX3zduPTIs7gWMsQw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:70cc:: with SMTP id l12-v6mr12903536plt.132.1536939220074; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.192.170.201] ([17.192.170.201]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d24-v6sm7938674pgv.23.2018.09.14.08.33.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_366A0AE8-BE51-4D87-ABD1-632981C56D18" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:33:37 -0700 In-Reply-To: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" To: Niels ten Oever References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:33:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_366A0AE8-BE51-4D87-ABD1-632981C56D18 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Sep 14, 2018, at 6:14 AM, Niels ten Oever = wrote: > Also warrants the question whether there are parallels in vocabulary > used in the IETF. There are, and when I've raised this in the past I've been poo-poohed. = It would be nice if this could change. Of course it's hard=E2=80=94the = DNS uses the terms quite heavily, for example, and when I've suggested = that "primary" and "secondary" be used instead, I've been told that the = terms do not have exactly equivalent semantics, which I think is true, = unfortunately. So it's a hard problem, but I think a worthwhile one to = work on. --Apple-Mail=_366A0AE8-BE51-4D87-ABD1-632981C56D18 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Sep 14, 2018, at 6:14 AM, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net> wrote:
Also warrants the question whether there are parallels in = vocabulary
used in the = IETF.

There are, and when I've raised this in the past I've been = poo-poohed.   It would be nice if this could change.   Of = course it's hard=E2=80=94the DNS uses the terms quite heavily, for = example, and when I've suggested that "primary" and "secondary" be used = instead, I've been told that the terms do not have exactly equivalent = semantics, which I think is true, unfortunately.  So it's a hard = problem, but I think a worthwhile one to work on.
= --Apple-Mail=_366A0AE8-BE51-4D87-ABD1-632981C56D18-- From nobody Fri Sep 14 08:37:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC15130EDB for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:36:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ReBUMZBoK7vC for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42d.google.com (mail-wr1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E852130F0A for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id a108-v6so11054628wrc.13 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:36:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dY5VkLmumyF1llt1UHeUwNUrhiGarZgSvQz+p4LdmyI=; b=MTD7M9WKWL7azmOS7IBY9JqmseN4H2TLLIj7OX60TTK1IxJp+dsCZzkB9VHEpp0CAM X9tYjC2ZWMN6VPgZ3dNVcKOCKifUlKcNd8PwtOyM5+28JXyR6QIEGvfwezuR/f5QR1Wy pAQUteuyqhXrM7VjmKgOsIXd0EchRLmBH+Wjc1JV1CYdYArpguwSezJgW0JuCINOCDna f5nNH2mV2dH37Thk5OvLVUhx9CYFla+m6ltpT4lgNVr3CKcCwY/bEgCYQlilH6bLySor aAJZLbpVpdu8xoXbC6oK8fyXUt7eHNXR8Vht4AvvGAknDbpIEVoCIlw8js2K0mlR17iR Cp9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dY5VkLmumyF1llt1UHeUwNUrhiGarZgSvQz+p4LdmyI=; b=ANNsLNhtHkhEFBCPE+0w5Cb0VR4Dg9vK6PahpGa7o49GSBUq+R4tHWALZWwp1nsIjj zVQeLTamoW1cHysOvk55n8GoXJ2m8KEpEEzpHzZQqIEmZgLNMyBM9UlpqcmrVECRhgen W5cii8tQW7nBx2rYx3AYH8ZfCiFVNCoeemjAWhEHJy2k/kXdMXJv5MNnNlj4tRd4Qut7 bcTbOSbRhnZZ704q9eVoDFo7NmoCHtqMzCfGgvwVaibnmJ8d70byXM32UrDB966uplfu LkqTkZqCdvVAFZBujC3+cJidlX/gv3nhuLQzl7UyeKWNP30VCPfT2tnOelrujMxPfMjI a+CA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51CNUYTk0Bxqk8ZfRqi9JWW3QdXT/lwOe2Z24g69tw6cOe3bW5MK 36BUnmPEJ4E1bqUbEs5R808cFM4yYZSx5/+pycw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZDJuqxIcKqkItc8ujEVaUbvD+noonvQXgIR5ifAwrbaQXcMx7365rXHEj3BxmFO1UdlYAnikRrMUfcDsZSdJ8= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4e0a:: with SMTP id p10-v6mr9961616wrt.48.1536939408881; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:36:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: From: Corinne Cath Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 17:36:12 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Cc: Niels ten Oever , Hrpc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000081ff2c0575d6971f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:37:04 -0000 --00000000000081ff2c0575d6971f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ted, Other than people perceiving the "primary" "secondary" option being insufficient, have you heard other reasons why people are reluctant to retire the slave/master terminology? Best, Corinne On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:34 PM Ted Lemon wrote: > On Sep 14, 2018, at 6:14 AM, Niels ten Oever > wrote: > > Also warrants the question whether there are parallels in vocabulary > used in the IETF. > > > There are, and when I've raised this in the past I've been poo-poohed. > It would be nice if this could change. Of course it's hard=E2=80=94the = DNS uses > the terms quite heavily, for example, and when I've suggested that > "primary" and "secondary" be used instead, I've been told that the terms = do > not have exactly equivalent semantics, which I think is true, > unfortunately. So it's a hard problem, but I think a worthwhile one to > work on. > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --=20 Corinne Cath - Speth Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnecath@gmail.com Twitter: @C_Cath --00000000000081ff2c0575d6971f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ted,

Other than people perceiving the "primary&quo= t; "secondary" option being insufficient, have you heard other re= asons why people are reluctant to retire the slave/master terminology?

=
Best,

Corinne=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:34 PM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
On Sep 14, 2018, at 6:14 AM, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.= net> wrote:
Also warrants the question whether= there are parallels in vocabulary
used in the IETF.

There are, and w= hen I've raised this in the past I've been poo-poohed. =C2=A0 It wo= uld be nice if this could change. =C2=A0 Of course it's hard=E2=80=94th= e DNS uses the terms quite heavily, for example, and when I've suggeste= d that "primary" and "secondary" be used instead, I'= ;ve been told that the terms do not have exactly equivalent semantics, whic= h I think is true, unfortunately.=C2=A0 So it's a hard problem, but I t= hink a worthwhile one to work on.

_______________= ________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
Corinne Cath - Spet= h
Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute=

Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/co= rinne-cath
Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnecath@gmail.com
Twitter: @C_Cath
<= /div>
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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k9-v6sm6030764qtk.2.2018.09.14.08.38.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:38:31 -0700 (PDT) To: Nalini J Elkins , Mallory Knodel , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> <196203167.5405723.1536937977769@mail.yahoo.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <5add6718-14ff-d77a-d88a-1543d835d005@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:38:30 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <196203167.5405723.1536937977769@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C998C2E9CBA630F5A05AC7F2" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:38:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C998C2E9CBA630F5A05AC7F2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Nalini, However, policy makers - whoever those are - generally have access to considerable understanding of the technology - even if they often lack personal understanding.=C2=A0 The multiple bodies dealing with legislativ= e, regulatory, judicial, and standards making policy/law have a plethora of information on the subject.=C2=A0 There are usually dozens if not hundred= s of parties who provide those inputs - with different perspectives and outcomes.=C2=A0 They weigh the requirements, the capabilities, the costs,= and the consequences differently.=C2=A0 Indeed, potential tort liabilities fo= r the consequences is likely to be a more compelling factor than regulatory requirements.=C2=A0 See, e.g., https://www.lawfareblog.com/civil-liability-end-end-encryption-threat-or-= fantasy-part-ii This hprc group and the participant advocates play an important role that deserves to be supported and nurtured.=C2=A0 It will arguably be mor= e effective to aware of the different perspectives and requirements - that are in fact related to many human rights other than just expression that have become more important because of significant contemporary developmen= ts. With this, I'll also sigh and go about the day.... --tony On 14-Sep-18 11:12 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > Tony, > > >If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a = long time - > as well as evolution of the taxonomies > > My point was not to reopen the encryption battle but to note that > policy makers often lack understanding of technology as a general > statement.=C2=A0=C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > *From:* Tony Rutkowski > *To:* Nalini J Elkins ; Mallory > Knodel ; "hrpc@irtf.org" > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2018 7:29 AM > *Subject:* Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content > > Hi Nalini, > If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a > long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies.=C2=A0 David Kahn in= his > bible on the subject, The Code Breakers, traces the efforts back to > the Egyptian government era, and his reference collection donated to > the U.S. National Cryptologic Museum includes 16th century handbooks.=C2= =A0 > On the network side, my own historical compilation was published last > year by Brookings.=C2=A0 > https://www.lawfareblog.com/anthony-rutkowski-international-signals-int= elligence-law-provisions-and-history-lawfare-research > Nearly every country has similar collections, and ETSI TC CYBER > maintains a list of all the different national cryptologic and > reference collections.=C2=A0 What is super cool is the London Science's= > Museum's exhibit being created for next year.=C2=A0 > https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/gchq-celebrate-centenary-2019 > Today, the use cases of concern are less terrorists than a major State > adversary such as the FSB or GRU using encrypted tunnels to disrupt > the foundational institutions of society that have a profound adverse > impact on all human rights.=C2=A0 See, e.g., > https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/from-bitly-to-x-= agent-how-gru-hackers-targeted-the-2016-presidential-election/ > Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right > to free expression of content via encrypted tunnels? > -t > > On 14-Sep-18 9:57 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > > It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governmen= ts > > to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards developm= ent > > try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, > > like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to > > precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lowe= r > > layers. > > I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead.. > > I participated in a discussion at a think tank a while back where the > topic for discussion was:=C2=A0 (paraphrased by me) > > "When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be > followed by inevitable overreach by government to regulate?=C2=A0 And w= hat > might it be?" > > The topic at hand happened to be encryption.=C2=A0 =C2=A0One can indeed= imagine > a scenario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for > example) might have been prevented.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They may not understand= the > details of the protocols but they may *think* they do. > > This is why=C2=A0I submit that control of content is indeed a set of to= pics > for engineers to be a part of the discussion.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Otherwise, as= you can > see, others are doing it. > > The words you use "anti-censorship" and "resilience of content" might > be construed as having a bias towards one side.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That is non= -neutral. > > I wonder if we might find other words and a vocabulary / taxonomy for > non-biased discussion? > =C2=A0 > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > *From:* Mallory Knodel > > *To:* hrpc@irtf.org > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM > *Subject:* Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content > > On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > >> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete > >> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk > >> of being fined. > >> > > > > [=E2=80=A6] > > > >> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if > >> people feel that this has implications for human rights and > >> protocols.=C2=A0 (I believe it does!) > > > > Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond > > the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be > > interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which > > is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_.=C2=A0 Is= > > there a useful distinction to be drawn?=C2=A0 If so, where is it? > > > > We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow fo= r > ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments. > > It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments= > to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards developmen= t > try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, > like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to > precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower > layers. > > -Mallory > --=20 > Mallory Knodel > Head of Digital :: article19.org > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C= 780 > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > --------------C998C2E9CBA630F5A05AC7F2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Nalini,

However, policy makers - whoever those are - generally have access to considerable understanding of the technology - even if they often lack personal understanding.  The multiple bodies dealing with legislative, regulatory, judicial, and standards making policy/law have a plethora of information on the subject.  There are usually dozens if not hundreds of parties who provide those inputs - with different perspectives and outcomes.  They weigh the requirements, the capabilities, the costs, and the consequences differently.  Indeed, potential tort liabilities for the consequences is likely to be a more compelling factor than regulatory requirements.  See, e.g., https://www.lawfareblog.com/civil-liability-end-end-encryption-threat-or-fantasy-part-ii

This hprc group and the participant advocates play an important role that deserves to be supported and nurtured.  It will arguably be more effective to aware of the different perspectives and requirements - that are in fact related to many human rights other than just expression that have become more important because of significant contemporary developments.

With this, I'll also sigh and go about the day....

--tony


On 14-Sep-18 11:12 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
Tony,

>If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies

My point was not to reopen the encryption battle but to note that policy makers often lack understanding of technology as a general statement.  
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com>
To: Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>; Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>; "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content

Hi Nalini,
If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies.  David Kahn in his bible on the subject, The Code Breakers, traces the efforts back to the Egyptian government era, and his reference collection donated to the U.S. National Cryptologic Museum includes 16th century handbooks.  On the network side, my own historical compilation was published last year by Brookings.  https://www.lawfareblog.com/anthony-rutkowski-international-signals-intelligence-law-provisions-and-history-lawfare-research
Nearly every country has similar collections, and ETSI TC CYBER maintains a list of all the different national cryptologic and reference collections.  What is super cool is the London Science's Museum's exhibit being created for next year.  https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/gchq-celebrate-centenary-2019
Today, the use cases of concern are less terrorists than a major State adversary such as the FSB or GRU using encrypted tunnels to disrupt the foundational institutions of society that have a profound adverse impact on all human rights.  See, e.g., https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/from-bitly-to-x-agent-how-gru-hackers-targeted-the-2016-presidential-election/
Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right to free expression of content via encrypted tunnels?
-t

On 14-Sep-18 9:57 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments
> to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development
> try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content,
> like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to
> precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower
> layers.

I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead..

I participated in a discussion at a think tank a while back where the topic for discussion was:  (paraphrased by me)

"When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be followed by inevitable overreach by government to regulate?  And what might it be?"

The topic at hand happened to be encryption.   One can indeed imagine a scenario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for example) might have been prevented.   They may not understand the details of the protocols but they may *think* they do.

This is why I submit that control of content is indeed a set of topics for engineers to be a part of the discussion.   Otherwise, as you can see, others are doing it.

The words you use "anti-censorship" and "resilience of content" might be construed as having a bias towards one side.   That is non-neutral.

I wonder if we might find other words and a vocabulary / taxonomy for non-biased discussion?
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content

On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
>> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete
>> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk
>> of being fined.
>>
>
> […]
>
>> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if
>> people feel that this has implications for human rights and
>> protocols.  (I believe it does!)
>
> Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond
> the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be
> interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which
> is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_.  Is
> there a useful distinction to be drawn?  If so, where is it?
>

We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow for
ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments.

It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments
to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development
try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content,
like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to
precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower
layers.

-Mallory
--
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc




_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc




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I think they just don't see it as particularly important, and there are = a huge number of documents that use the terms, so fixing it would = definitely create confusion and require work to be done. Although actually in reading the current terminology document, it looks = like in fact master has been deprecated in favor of primary, and slave = in favor of secondary, so maybe it's less of an issue than I thought = (the conversation I'm remembering was a few years ago, probably in the = context of an IESG review of a DNS document). The document still uses the term "master file" though, and the terms = "master" and "slave" are documented, but now as deprecated synonyms = rather than primary concepts. Looking back at RFC 7719, which the new document replaces, it looks like = master and slave were already deprecated then. --Apple-Mail=_E8DD817C-5D95-4044-A9B3-A25929CF68A1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Sep 14, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Corinne Cath <corinnecath@gmail.com> wrote:
Other than people perceiving the = "primary" "secondary" option being insufficient, have you heard other = reasons why people are reluctant to retire the slave/master = terminology?

I think they just don't see it as particularly important, and = there are a huge number of documents that use the terms, so fixing it = would definitely create confusion and require work to be done.

Although actually in = reading the current terminology document, it looks like in fact master = has been deprecated in favor of primary, and slave in favor of = secondary, so maybe it's less of an issue than I thought (the = conversation I'm remembering was a few years ago, probably in the = context of an IESG review of a DNS document).

The document still uses the term = "master file" though, and the terms "master" and "slave" are documented, = but now as deprecated synonyms rather than primary concepts.

Looking back at RFC = 7719, which the new document replaces, it looks like master and slave = were already deprecated then.

= --Apple-Mail=_E8DD817C-5D95-4044-A9B3-A25929CF68A1-- From nobody Fri Sep 14 10:07:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A54130F0F for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:06:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HiLwiDvwRIlV for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x229.google.com (mail-oi0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADDA7130F20 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id r69-v6so13484254oie.3 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:06:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=3PCpXNrd59p6MmvnQoUIXOf107KwdrgIQs1wAgo57Kg=; b=iJj0uyYXo7l/tkpSEQjFNdaoOrf5WLi+FHhc8j+t8YoWBSwdirHFabNJ3V8qqR16f4 Q3UVsDYCNd4feFBB4Yext2R78yG7EbO4KNTS0/WQ0tN6bwkS9EqG+7cxnDLcOehSgGH6 AAQgdcKeKM8I5MAHi8YdkyWJ/lyQ4q+g13DsDkkzBFDyCMqGF6x3W334ObidIG7lAdQf jgc/s1iJsUgS7H7Z5w4Hc2TCGpqclPJyoBY8MmAS4l4Mu9Edj37snAk01blbE8vIuO/Q WpJAMhKxhPsnjeGzmaNJk+cxGSNAPivI1Z1MPHHwHyl5kxAUoVNgLDvvcvMVGFhMr2VO Kkqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=3PCpXNrd59p6MmvnQoUIXOf107KwdrgIQs1wAgo57Kg=; b=W3W5VyEIlkletLO0h2tYFJSKFozba3K2mUTPzQUy2B3MdCtSV0ThhNsauna7bNlJld 9kJaXLkmYNqBOV1zi31xnUv+nAHLeL+xG9tYa6K3vpw4cXl2bJuIi3t5HF8M0J0zaOb2 cTUrPGkPDHe6hyuKaQYOOUcy7DJv/bk/FD+SdOAe1DddnOt0tDWhTg84Rv4conaPlWj7 qVOn8stj3FW7yOT0vcJ4D5IddgZ8alJt0tOIP309lUIZsJ/jHXD0JO0yLsRI5kWusqQ2 NoFsYRMBiJ7i5kX610GmnN3L7zdZClxlrY5woQW+SmeQM950yxyqPxxtfE+YQ6vP0aUC 9UtA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BaZPAfNseL6OMY4ZOXLEWg33yvC+nUT7BAGFEfHHSxn1W0R+St Ys9uhnmi7ZQoqRHmOZCum0c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdbTkQFkh/825ZijGL5UERN+90lRxA7FhgrjL1BdzjGi9ZbAQzVPRne7dApYmUwCgCOjfHZTsQ== X-Received: by 2002:a54:4d86:: with SMTP id y6-v6mr10522251oix.261.1536944810938; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::1073? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::1073]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f144-v6sm4964147oib.39.2018.09.14.10.06.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:06:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_067AA415-3FF9-4D96-B7D5-1194F492B593"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:06:48 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever To: Corinne Cath References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 17:07:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_067AA415-3FF9-4D96-B7D5-1194F492B593 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Sep 14, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Corinne Cath = wrote: >=20 > Other than people perceiving the "primary" "secondary" option being = insufficient, have you heard other reasons why people are reluctant to = retire the slave/master terminology? I would guess that it has to do with the dictionary definition of the = term. You might look at definition 5a in = https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master. Primary/Secondary makes the two essentially equivalent, but using one of = them in the normal state. That is common in BGP multihoming; a company = might buy service from two ISPs (or two POPs of the same ISP), but in = the normal case use one of them exclusively, switching to the secondary = if and only if the primary fails. Master/Slave has to do with control. For example (this one is old, but = well-known), in SDLC as used by an IBM Front End (FEP) in communication = with a set of 3170/3270 terminals, FEP decides which communicant gets to = "speak" at any given time, that communicant speaks, and then returns = control to the FEP. The FEP is the *master* in the sense of being = entirely in control, consistent with Meriam-Webster definition 5a. There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human = rights might affect that. It is simply how the communication system = works. And frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to = inaccurately describe the system for reasons related to political = correctness. --Apple-Mail=_067AA415-3FF9-4D96-B7D5-1194F492B593 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlub6qgACgkQEhdRnd2G P+DhhBAAsRym8EtoTofBBPtlGTGMk84fhyfavkjhB3v1ZeLk6ResXsWS6Z30VUn1 MZXg2kKo2BNlBpZXfFq2Qrlbe704yLfF+8aTVQeD68iYfuSCzlKWAOoKA4yLieOY 4uM1xyRrhV0wJdGUJucDuMR6h65Ln4CS+WsAgbeyA2E2inpmxdWLmx/uS+7+JohQ 6d+yqE3vJKot+l/NfrQrz+wBcToeAbXTF06Y9wZKdj3v0uQVJDQ7VQid4WD+MzkA NAlXsQwmf5fv0X1MSx0vHqhQq0JX0sGNRPy44RZcjS7McVlHsqmxHlF3e+OPV944 34ELTZrJ0pSszV8MmApj03B49iIoKGHWxZIPLDEDN78iesOZgC4u5e6HbnEyBUH4 M0N264IEzco1gUvyB3daRrVXcOyjJDlhbGHFiESEO8J/ifTfxkbdwRtnLYpxBjR1 iekhwrJccKqvwsxW68x+kf62Bxjtqxm8PSjl9qXxhR3ydoDI3JRB3H6dThlO+27J Ac8Kvwi+YNGZtHh62aEQQ4gBS9qv62x0S5muVPJlQjEfAMZMj3wxPgC8o7yEadqv 6VH38dqFo61giHvEHLIAuagdNCoVU0ffuPUfBiq7oIe8kVBfifq+JobLOjSjN/VR xotWIXflPr1BeEv+xUxMA/Dg7oZaQRuqS/UpAq9yLvHttRrGMJQ= =JQTJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_067AA415-3FF9-4D96-B7D5-1194F492B593-- From nobody Fri Sep 14 10:14:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6582130E59 for ; 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Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:13:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:13:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000934030575d7f39e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 17:14:12 -0000 --0000000000000934030575d7f39e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, the issue is that these =E2=80=9Ctechnical=E2=80=9D terms then get us= ed in professional contexts in which people for whom these terms have very powerfully loaded non-technical meanings are forced to hear them over and over again, which isn=E2=80=99t fun for them. And of course because the ter= ms are part of the technical vernacular, this can serve as cover to use them for harassment. Since they aren=E2=80=99t loaded for you personally, you can see this sensi= tivity as useless political correctness. But it=E2=80=99s not=E2=80=94it=E2=80=99s= just basic human decency about a problem that isn=E2=80=99t obvious to those of us for whom = these terms don=E2=80=99t have this loaded meaning. On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 10:06 AM Fred Baker wrote: > > > > On Sep 14, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Corinne Cath wrote= : > > > > Other than people perceiving the "primary" "secondary" option being > insufficient, have you heard other reasons why people are reluctant to > retire the slave/master terminology? > > I would guess that it has to do with the dictionary definition of the > term. You might look at definition 5a in > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master. > > Primary/Secondary makes the two essentially equivalent, but using one of > them in the normal state. That is common in BGP multihoming; a company > might buy service from two ISPs (or two POPs of the same ISP), but in the > normal case use one of them exclusively, switching to the secondary if an= d > only if the primary fails. > > Master/Slave has to do with control. For example (this one is old, but > well-known), in SDLC as used by an IBM Front End (FEP) in communication > with a set of 3170/3270 terminals, FEP decides which communicant gets to > "speak" at any given time, that communicant speaks, and then returns > control to the FEP. The FEP is the *master* in the sense of being entirel= y > in control, consistent with Meriam-Webster definition 5a. > > There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human right= s > might affect that. It is simply how the communication system works. And > frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to inaccurately describe t= he > system for reasons related to political correctness. > > --0000000000000934030575d7f39e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred, the issue is that these =E2=80=9Ctechnical=E2= =80=9D terms then get used in professional contexts in which people for who= m these terms have very powerfully loaded non-technical meanings are forced= to hear them over and over again, which isn=E2=80=99t fun for them. And of= course because the terms are part of the technical vernacular, this can se= rve as cover to use them for harassment.

<= div dir=3D"auto">Since they aren=E2=80=99t loaded for you personally, you c= an see this sensitivity as useless political correctness. But it=E2=80=99s = not=E2=80=94it=E2=80=99s just basic human decency about a problem that isn= =E2=80=99t obvious to those of us for whom these terms don=E2=80=99t have t= his loaded meaning.=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 10:06 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
=


> On Sep 14, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Corinne Cath <corinnecath@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Other than people perceiving the "primary" "secondary&q= uot; option being insufficient, have you heard other reasons why people are= reluctant to retire the slave/master terminology?

I would guess that it has to do with the dictionary definition of the term.= You might look at definition 5a in https://www.mer= riam-webster.com/dictionary/master.

Primary/Secondary makes the two essentially equivalent, but using one of th= em in the normal state. That is common in BGP multihoming; a company might = buy service from two ISPs (or two POPs of the same ISP), but in the normal = case use one of them exclusively, switching to the secondary if and only if= the primary fails.

Master/Slave has to do with control. For example (this one is old, but well= -known), in SDLC as used by an IBM Front End (FEP) in communication with a = set of 3170/3270 terminals, FEP decides which communicant gets to "spe= ak" at any given time, that communicant speaks, and then returns contr= ol to the FEP. The FEP is the *master* in the sense of being entirely in co= ntrol, consistent with Meriam-Webster definition 5a.

There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human rights = might affect that. It is simply how the communication system works. And fra= nkly, it's beyond me why someone would want to inaccurately describe th= e system for reasons related to political correctness.

--0000000000000934030575d7f39e-- From nobody Fri Sep 14 10:48:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23AC8130934 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:48:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0i8xPSvedpJd for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls6.std.com [192.74.137.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C52B130E0A for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8EHlfGK031803; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:47:43 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8EHlZLF032117; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:47:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <23451.62519.916055.458194@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:47:35 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: Stephen Farrell , "hrpc\@irtf.org" In-Reply-To: <48998ad0-e1f1-0e6a-b410-0f9d177e66e6@gmail.com> References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> <82f91c42-0239-e8d8-f7fe-f311f5865133@cs.tcd.ie> <48998ad0-e1f1-0e6a-b410-0f9d177e66e6@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 17:48:07 -0000 On September 14, 2018 at 10:48 rutkowski.tony@gmail.com (Tony Rutkowski= ) wrote: > It would also be interesting the parse the anthropomorphic assertion= > "the IETF's attitude."=A0 Perhaps we can get beyond characterizing v= iews > we don't like as "trolling." I believe the word is "metonomy", substituting an abstract grouping for the people involved ("The White House said...".) --=20 -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheW= orld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Fri Sep 14 10:57:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA3A130934 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:57:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UDTWhVZzMne3 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x741.google.com (mail-qk1-x741.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::741]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A14AD130E08 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x741.google.com with SMTP id z78-v6so5655828qka.0 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:57:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=9rvaE/juP3RyBLLDT+QArNAhin2pylAsDe/8UKdC9FQ=; b=JxG7Ic7Ma5Y6omdL9E1ADVpdjIU8cis3n6Nozd0dsl+HG2rCdDJfwNm3NnwYy/N8HL JC/LhNxKb00IPNf3gorI3l2T59oJ3xdzQ2RMeDJ01n8gqnd0p+z4CAZYKSuc0ljbmnYU XyImlZ85PFDc8WKw6FEl6/GZlCzhWNYVKf1byZxUJySrjFKQX1VjNEovCsnlzWSR2wcZ V92EXQfCDdIjF+s6F30J/E5ZTRr6ULbDqC0/Ug82Nd8XzKCSoh/WFTX0wsIjeyI04i/J EThuI4PuXhGdaNlo7iPHT838k6kJQlhSJA3nupcs3sTShOTW6fqpghMs2ubD+nOplpIA EQnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language; bh=9rvaE/juP3RyBLLDT+QArNAhin2pylAsDe/8UKdC9FQ=; b=hSqMYS26Qdxv7q2Y4MYSUBZkMwOoB5YJvP4LowWMm+lOe71BsT5GCVqBG54YzFz0c7 gFcirB8UFF/A13Ml/Zrfdik/GMUcOGdEeCEvSw9msYhB0jJO0stse2ZgSY/bKRs65/Yg 5ZHqNENVfYbMop+zgbZUFsJQfllyJYBdmfRriQnRgSddUc3rOTf1dk3ai0l/Dt+Cco65 +ZjTCiRpmXnvh5xZQmTp84qRpalJzrHMTnGhhoPZlZZXQ6TipmEhm6kaq8szTxtrczsV OzoRTswm2QsyvT4ZOnNf2tUJUch3S6z2aP1qWI/lhIMKFG3EPkFydy3zWBmEV5bMfSzr sHmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51A7l+W2pX6cSuc7GrvI2NtS9Ah7/tg759yQ1AJ9Up4q6G1ekmpv ZWqmRz3vP4qtLElh4Kl6XwM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdY/qXZ99ih8bfnBtyPrKLjH7ng6A53WxvsMGUEWwz06twt9J3YuqQkor8UMPM0YTmY8vrmvbw== X-Received: by 2002:a37:8106:: with SMTP id c6-v6mr9305028qkd.261.1536947857734; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-196-109.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m95-v6sm4520301qte.69.2018.09.14.10.57.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:57:37 -0700 (PDT) To: Fred Baker , Corinne Cath Cc: Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:57:36 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0804421252F3BD2F21D5FA85" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 17:57:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0804421252F3BD2F21D5FA85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Fred, The construct and terms are especially pervasive in timing and related synchronization systems for centuries.=A0 There are literally hundreds of= standards in existence that use the conconcept, as well as established usage.=A0 See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_clock Primary and secondary are not the same. Among other things, you'll have to let the NTP folks know.=A0 The use of the terms for DNS no doubt owes to the origins of DNS - conceived by Dave Mills. :-) cheers, tony On 14-Sep-18 1:06 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > >> On Sep 14, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Corinne Cath wrot= e: >> >> Other than people perceiving the "primary" "secondary" option being in= sufficient, have you heard other reasons why people are reluctant to reti= re the slave/master terminology? > I would guess that it has to do with the dictionary definition of the t= erm. You might look at definition 5a in https://www.merriam-webster.com/d= ictionary/master. > > Primary/Secondary makes the two essentially equivalent, but using one o= f them in the normal state. That is common in BGP multihoming; a company = might buy service from two ISPs (or two POPs of the same ISP), but in the= normal case use one of them exclusively, switching to the secondary if a= nd only if the primary fails. > > Master/Slave has to do with control. For example (this one is old, but = well-known), in SDLC as used by an IBM Front End (FEP) in communication w= ith a set of 3170/3270 terminals, FEP decides which communicant gets to "= speak" at any given time, that communicant speaks, and then returns contr= ol to the FEP. The FEP is the *master* in the sense of being entirely in = control, consistent with Meriam-Webster definition 5a. > > There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human rig= hts might affect that. It is simply how the communication system works. A= nd frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to inaccurately describ= e the system for reasons related to political correctness. > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --------------0804421252F3BD2F21D5FA85 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Fred,

The construct and terms are especially pervasive in timing and related synchronization systems for centuries.  There are literally hundreds of standards in existence that use the conconcept, as well as established usage.  See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_clock

Primary and secondary are not the same.

Among other things, you'll have to let the NTP folks know.  The use of the terms for DNS no doubt owes to the origins of DNS - conceived by Dave Mills. :-)

cheers,
tony


On 14-Sep-18 1:06 PM, Fred Baker wrote:


On Sep 14, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Corinne Cath <corinnecath@gmail.com> wrote:

Other than people perceiving the "primary" "secondary" option being insufficient, have you heard other reasons why people are reluctant to retire the slave/master terminology?

I would guess that it has to do with the dictionary definition of the term. You might look at definition 5a in https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/master.

Primary/Secondary makes the two essentially equivalent, but using one of them in the normal state. That is common in BGP multihoming; a company might buy service from two ISPs (or two POPs of the same ISP), but in the normal case use one of them exclusively, switching to the secondary if and only if the primary fails.

Master/Slave has to do with control. For example (this one is old, but well-known), in SDLC as used by an IBM Front End (FEP) in communication with a set of 3170/3270 terminals, FEP decides which communicant gets to "speak" at any given time, that communicant speaks, and then returns control to the FEP. The FEP is the *master* in the sense of being entirely in control, consistent with Meriam-Webster definition 5a.

There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human rights might affect that. It is simply how the communication system works. And frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to inaccurately describe the system for reasons related to political correctness.




_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

--------------0804421252F3BD2F21D5FA85-- From nobody Fri Sep 14 11:08:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A39130E3A for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d0oytNUEyc2g for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls6.std.com [192.74.137.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 183B0130E25 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8EI7OZB009182; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:07:26 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8EI7Jro032740; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:07:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23451.63703.370103.257688@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:07:19 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Nalini J Elkins Cc: Hrpc In-Reply-To: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 18:08:07 -0000 A possibly useful and maybe even relevant angle on this is the distinction between blocking content and tagging content. For example so that a person can use a setting in their browser (perhaps via a plug-in / add-on) or other software filtering to determine what they will or will not see. Blocking and demanding services block content seems like a primitive, sledgehammer, pass the buck, approach and runs the risk of prior restraint and many other problems. In particular who gets to decide what is objectionable? And, worse, just may not work. Bear in mind, for example, that facebook receives approximately two billion posts per day and in many, many languages. Tagging can also be provided by third parties as a service. Notably those third-party services could be native to the language and culture where the content might be objectionable. They might even make some money providing this service. One recurring problem with internet issues is that of scaling. In the mind's eye one might imagine, and this applies to members of legislative bodies in particular, that one can identify a message which in their opinion should be blocked. So, therefore, how much more difficult could it be to block all such messages for everyone? It is much, much more difficult. After over 20 years of activism the spam and phishing problems remain huge problems. And threatening legal or financial violence does not /prima facie/ make the problem any easier -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Fri Sep 14 11:25:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C8A130934 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:25:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iiZPu9dHQon8 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86194127B92 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g0smI-0001VP-W8 for hrpc@irtf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 20:25:15 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFjWlnsBEAC+jUN+LJE+mmxEL8lHSrvg47xSBMb9GdtH1Jr8tRSxXiO6R5E+FydsfqkL sjO0dI3x/VnNBi/kgPFFWiAzDEwGTiR/C9b/Muo+xrY+it6e49N56LTPGezrY2dy5yo6VcLl 7UwGz3fIWiNIj7dvuoPMBoO1uacF073E+dqDM5CmNh6o+OrHW8zhUlC9hKgXCq+8XpZJw90H un1zsHF0sRDiurjfYaCcbdAGK9+th9378ed1ZvLVo5uBVQXdydl3eJkNCOELq7VOS7oxSliA uX5/nj9A4LjeeYXgNbwGfKrMjlffP0FcAcgfzg9seqDd1DEk9EVaUMTr32fbWOQHjinXSC7r Lw4xaNfoBebIe1M6z16Xg7+bXXCTdmJYcL9ugmkvT6tGnR12Pfoca1oBwXPvA0VIRi86kCSU D9qvZ3Vl07MKD2hsvFkGZJOQfEaYv5QLpCWv6RCjfDNC05IyMeSW4H18Fr/BoHX8FXHV3+9H LsbJQ/Zrofd/Cm+TKEmXLAtYc7iXvzV+mw3/u0VYqjEy/CRYa62Ah0NNNVIuswfRVIfx3UZo jX4y8j2Kh0jtUV5A4GGf8H3SzQ/cB0I7wTRHU9mCPVCtH6M26nPumL4Zr4D6uGnAmPf9xnlX lokOn2Qxf/mBldsL41PDbEpYhZvvn5kJ/Z9Qh7Fks/hfTbbJowARAQABzSxBbWVsaWEgQW5k ZXJzZG90dGVyIDxhbWVsaWFAYW5kZXJzZG90dGVyLmNjPsLBlwQTAQgAQQIbIwUJCWYBgAUL CQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgBYhBD1dtsq4UrmIBVpqb/7xwpS06AtVBQJY1pdiAhkB AAoJEP7xwpS06AtVI0sP/Al6eUycymdT1R7v0uEQv4coonnOUV6FKj/4wc+wM+A0h7vlqADr j4nS7RRSQRUo8xJ9tvR9J1Eyske5bvakOYv64f9PrNY1Z6ABhJzK34kJxekEfeLmpXAB4wst GhD8dGC/z/b9Oau0AW1GWIP0eNWq4acDf9Qf+j0wqQi25OZUXnu5KeUX7mvPTHKZLyEZlwHV atXmZHWKnQWtEPZTQfv/zESsoBAm1TbaLapgxVG9uLW+I9kj72TB/AZ5hMSKMYWZ2dC+8eEs Xd22tn6907aUmZhFT89jbEyS996WeZ+SQ5G1Okrq02qYXcCi5vm3AuvLlbRYHguh42TLaVq1 er7PiYOYH77FFmnZWW6ChFnf7xsDep2tpNxn+QUZLgO3+5kL7TfO7D2H57kjVVMdkNn+01nz kfcn76K7nuU6Dc4pItPzbDndhdxulnm9cicOEfGQqvta9ffxk4YWyAu9PUNARVRNf6OnoDQQ Zo8l1o37q9PFXJyQwzvxdd9u6uzTny2wp9eig75pD3dYHCRIQeYmkv1kB81mc86cwgvuw1Qy /QwiCBNXSSuIvLO78b+/dB0DLVQC/c6gtyWXRpC4ysF4EaEZophjT60d12YRanR+fWuH+qu2 wsT+z1d4tC5/6UJMPr3bxREh9JHThm5Y3cDBmcn0PGqtDKkwjCkqex5bzsFNBFjWlnsBEADF jusaTo9W8VeWluCK/oJqyyyF1wMvou0ldfuoOpUZrOqsY67TM7yBqsv5COPVgAV+xp+axor5 oHWxibd283w0Ok4dK6tvtNGwUqyDRlHtQ92DG/u4Tg5eOwrHNUn73/rfeBD9KhKAXcNKKPoc cLgR8oQTXpO7eRo+0NI52pXQ6LdZ0wddYeTcHglsNKN1TK+CyYS7xfGolsZXXoBOKcyhfj/c kPFVIHWpGpEtcYWTZWvXgLprzHvpKzkzNyBwejaXE+bqCT2dRl3omI/e2t3Vq33hFUUSAdxr FF29vMX/YsSnYqsFOIoayna+TRsDFAfZvbvHBOMckeJzvA8yBdadw7CM08Uw8wqH7n9BA3oq //QpZJekPfrc2E9nM9H0d51T0uStLMbYDWdwxvfPA3p9z8L91vobt8bM/Jbhl9h+X2Yq9oBC iTI7b2izYd9FVG4BwBIdeh3bh9R9HExgRjF3XQ6uafT3pcVOPASdv9FRUYH1Va7QWQifoha0 B7UXKx1OpX1Z6XR2NQ9KN2MvlwvBKdHtm6tBzUIFzW6D8vUOxiYKBA4fppJt/LJF4jsaCEyI /CVQnkC0yL5DKFOdigxTipwEL9Uc6r7VfR5OAGFd6vzuJFy+j+/WhzaVT1oVYp6eQXh0bBtq qH2Mq9sAMnIjvaNYIKiQKgMa1Pa3OWQbQQARAQABwsF8BBgBCAAmFiEEPV22yrhSuYgFWmpv /vHClLToC1UFAljWlnsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQ/vHClLToC1XnRw//W4lzE8FddceKXGRwO/T1 u4uzH9EjPCj+3/eHCrLI+h1m7QPyH1DrFAtZBoA6UoaF0+vIAJXM9/HI1FZ09EUdJr5X/+YR EErFom4DbE1FK8fpK1/Hw2zI+7Xa8bVkmYrKhMGhi1Gq6Dtksn/H4USdJL53ZPt10SVNK7H3 w93Yp1GC4+0zWjfrsKfsHYZZr2SZyb5/gZlngfgaqiQLhIcPYmiU1GQi9QWkGxWRxk0YQXBw hekewvgltATxlRSCwguAi4uck9fAct9GGdpsshSOgAb9YIAnEV3EqaGnf0PknXp3vNHAZWrf M+RyuNdm2L5TjDU0rIrvyqGP3pR33cREGOAil5Sz2uFArmwsPt8VffbEXlf7qZqRBKaYeKt0 qnxKMx1+e1JilVsfb8qtnAWAFDyR0HMlVj/dvGAmq/auPSOAUWRSnDRyT6rv/vXxrbkL4uxW ax46qdpDhR15mS5MTng6b5b3Uox7xlveo/Sx71AdNf4goPvB/ntv0DiMuh+fmLGk3zrxs4Xd 30Sx+qQwVaXR5xc5rgnF81wvfmuAOb2eP9mpD6DoabkpxC8fLk17AK7Q1ZTgcZ+8XLRFnavd PrwCa9RU0BF53lJMSTPzyBcMwZ4sqA6Z5IRFVt7rEbSeeD8REiawo+FvVt9j0fKdNEBeaJ3W Y5hlhNPcUXr4q1U= Organization: ARTICLE19 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 20:25:10 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US-large X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 3b058867a8808b2a73617ccb478d635a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 18:25:20 -0000 On 2018-09-14 19:06, Fred Baker wrote: > >> On Sep 14, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Corinne Cath wrot= e: >> >> Other than people perceiving the "primary" "secondary" option being in= sufficient, have you heard other reasons why people are reluctant to reti= re the slave/master terminology? > I would guess that it has to do with the dictionary definition of the t= erm. You might look at definition 5a in https://www.merriam-webster.com/d= ictionary/master. > > Primary/Secondary makes the two essentially equivalent, but using one o= f them in the normal state. That is common in BGP multihoming; a company = might buy service from two ISPs (or two POPs of the same ISP), but in the= normal case use one of them exclusively, switching to the secondary if a= nd only if the primary fails. > > Master/Slave has to do with control. For example (this one is old, but = well-known), in SDLC as used by an IBM Front End (FEP) in communication w= ith a set of 3170/3270 terminals, FEP decides which communicant gets to "= speak" at any given time, that communicant speaks, and then returns contr= ol to the FEP. The FEP is the *master* in the sense of being entirely in = control, consistent with Meriam-Webster definition 5a. I was recently doing an overview of these terms, and some alternatives from database standards are "master/replica", "primary/replica" or "master/secondary". The replicated bit would be the instruction from the primary/master. > There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human rig= hts might affect that. It is simply how the communication system works. A= nd frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to inaccurately describ= e the system for reasons related to political correctness. The contention is similar as to if it were proposed to change master to "boss" and slave to "worker". Boss/worker would still accurately describe the control relationship, and would not have connotations to historically unjust relationships between peoples of different background= s. best regards, Amelia > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Fri Sep 14 13:21:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD45D1294D7 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:21:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Fri, 14 Sep 2018 16:21:41 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:21:40 -0700 Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6A0CB034-CC9E-4B06-919C-FBF816CDB217@mnot.net> References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> To: Niels ten Oever X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 20:21:47 -0000 Recently, even: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8163 > On 14 Sep 2018, at 6:14 am, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >=20 > Might be of interest: >=20 > =E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99 Terminology Was Removed from Python = Programming Language >=20 > = https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8x7akv/masterslave-terminology-= was-removed-from-python-programming-language >=20 > Also warrants the question whether there are parallels in vocabulary > used in the IETF. >=20 > Best, >=20 > Niels >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Niels ten Oever > Researcher and PhD Candidate > Datactive Research Group > University of Amsterdam >=20 > PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 > 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Fri Sep 14 14:46:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25810130E6B for ; 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Fri, 14 Sep 2018 21:46:03 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 21:46:02 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Perkins To: Nalini J Elkins Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <1248427116.3443195.1536961562086@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <23451.63703.370103.257688@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <23451.63703.370103.257688@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3443194_1381865828.1536961562084" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12406 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:62.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/62.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 21:46:08 -0000 ------=_Part_3443194_1381865828.1536961562084 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Getting back to the original question I think one area where this intersects with protocols is the question of no= tification of the reason for blocking, with the possibility of linking to t= he court order (hopefully it will be court rather than administrative order= s, even if the courts only confirm after the administration !) While not all social media networks may use this possibility, at least if i= t is available then it can be a point of pressure . Mark P. On Saturday, September 15, 2018, 5:08:20 AM GMT+11, = wrote: =20 =20 =20 A possibly useful and maybe even relevant angle on this is the distinction between blocking content and tagging content. For example so that a person can use a setting in their browser (perhaps via a plug-in / add-on) or other software filtering to determine what they will or will not see. Blocking and demanding services block content seems like a primitive, sledgehammer, pass the buck, approach and runs the risk of prior restraint and many other problems. In particular who gets to decide what is objectionable? And, worse, just may not work. Bear in mind, for example, that facebook receives approximately two billion posts per day and in many, many languages. Tagging can also be provided by third parties as a service. Notably those third-party services could be native to the language and culture where the content might be objectionable. They might even make some money providing this service. One recurring problem with internet issues is that of scaling. In the mind's eye one might imagine, and this applies to members of legislative bodies in particular, that one can identify a message which in their opinion should be blocked. So, therefore, how much more difficult could it be to block all such messages for everyone? It is much, much more difficult. After over 20 years of activism the spam and phishing problems remain huge problems. And threatening legal or financial violence does not /prima facie/ make the problem any easier --=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | bzs@TheWorld.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 800-T= HE-WRLD The World: Since 1989=C2=A0 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_3443194_1381865828.1536961562084 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Getting back to the original question

I think one= area where this intersects with protocols is the question of notification = of the reason for blocking, with the possibility of linking to the court or= der (hopefully it will be court rather than administrative orders, even if = the courts only confirm after the administration !)

While not all so= cial media networks may use this possibility, at least if it is available t= hen it can be a point of pressure .

Mark P.
=20
=20
On Saturday, September 15, 2018, 5:08:20 AM GMT+11, &l= t;bzs@theworld.com> wrote:



A possibly useful = and maybe even relevant angle on this is the
distinction = between blocking content and tagging content.

For example so that a person can use a setting in their browser(perhaps via a plug-in / add-on) or other software filteri= ng to
determine what they will or will not see.

Blocking and demanding services block content = seems like a primitive,
sledgehammer, pass the buck, appr= oach and runs the risk of prior
restraint and many other = problems. In particular who gets to decide
what is object= ionable?

And, worse, just may not work= .

Bear in mind, for example, that face= book receives approximately two
billion posts per day and= in many, many languages.

Tagging can = also be provided by third parties as a service.

Notably those third-party services could be native to the languag= e and
culture where the content might be objectionable. T= hey might even make
some money providing this service.
One recurring problem with internet issu= es is that of scaling.

In the mind's e= ye one might imagine, and this applies to members of
legi= slative bodies in particular, that one can identify a message
which in their opinion should be blocked.

So, therefore, how much more difficult could it be to block all s= uch
messages for everyone?

It is much, much more difficult.

After over 20 years of activism the spam and phishing problems remain
huge problems.

And thre= atening legal or financial violence does not /prima facie/
make the problem any easier

--
        -Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die    | bzs@The= World.com            | http://www.TheWorld.com=
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD = ;     | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989&nbs= p; | A Public Information Utility | *oo*


_________________________= ______________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
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I agree, however, with your assessment.=C2=A0 But I would add that a proble= m statement, use cases, and description needs to be done as a start to disc= ussion. I think it is not clear if there is a role for the IETF (I suspect there is= ) nor do we know the parameters and boundaries of the problem. I must say that I was guilty of proposing a premature solution with the IAN= A registry.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I will be out of touch for a few days due to the ab= ove mentioned family responsibilities. But, I will be pondering and possibly starting on some thoughts on a proble= m description.=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: Mark Perkins To: Nalini J Elkins =20 Cc: Hrpc Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content =20 Getting back to the original question I think one area where this intersects with protocols is the question of no= tification of the reason for blocking, with the possibility of linking to t= he court order (hopefully it will be court rather than administrative order= s, even if the courts only confirm after the administration !) While not all social media networks may use this possibility, at least if i= t is available then it can be a point of pressure . Mark P. On Saturday, September 15, 2018, 5:08:20 AM GMT+11, = wrote: =20 =20 =20 A possibly useful and maybe even relevant angle on this is the distinction between blocking content and tagging content. For example so that a person can use a setting in their browser (perhaps via a plug-in / add-on) or other software filtering to determine what they will or will not see. Blocking and demanding services block content seems like a primitive, sledgehammer, pass the buck, approach and runs the risk of prior restraint and many other problems. In particular who gets to decide what is objectionable? And, worse, just may not work. Bear in mind, for example, that facebook receives approximately two billion posts per day and in many, many languages. Tagging can also be provided by third parties as a service. Notably those third-party services could be native to the language and culture where the content might be objectionable. They might even make some money providing this service. One recurring problem with internet issues is that of scaling. In the mind's eye one might imagine, and this applies to members of legislative bodies in particular, that one can identify a message which in their opinion should be blocked. So, therefore, how much more difficult could it be to block all such messages for everyone? It is much, much more difficult. After over 20 years of activism the spam and phishing problems remain huge problems. And threatening legal or financial violence does not /prima facie/ make the problem any easier --=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | bzs@TheWorld.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 800-T= HE-WRLD The World: Since 1989=C2=A0 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 =20 ------=_Part_5643048_961234659.1536965576705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,

Sorry for the top post.   I am at = the airport.   Need to get my daughter situated in graduate schoo= l.

<= /span>
I agree, however, with your= assessment.  But I would add that a problem statement, use cases, and= description needs to be done as a start to discussion.

I think it is not clear if there is a= role for the IETF (I suspect there is) nor do we know the parameters and b= oundaries of the problem.

I must say that I was guilty of proposing a premature solution with= the IANA registry.   I will be out of touch for a few days due t= o the above mentioned family responsibilities.

But, I will be ponde= ring and possibly starting on some thoughts on a problem description.
 
Th= anks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
w= ww.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Mark Perkins <marknoumea@yahoo.c= om>
To: Nalini J El= kins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>
Cc: Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:46 PM=
Subject: Re: [hrpc] F= ines for Social Media for Terrorism Content

Getting back= to the original question

I think one = area where this intersects with protocols is the question of notification o= f the reason for blocking, with the possibility of linking to the court ord= er (hopefully it will be court rather than administrative orders, even if t= he courts only confirm after the administration !)

While not all social media networks may use this possibility, = at least if it is available then it can be a point of pressure .

Mark P.
=20
=20
On Saturday, September 15, 2018, 5:08:20 AM GMT+11, &l= t;bzs@theworld.com> wrote:



A possibly useful = and maybe even relevant angle on this is the
distinction = between blocking content and tagging content.

For example so that a person can use a setting in their browser(perhaps via a plug-in / add-on) or other software filteri= ng to
determine what they will or will not see.

Blocking and demanding services block content = seems like a primitive,
sledgehammer, pass the buck, appr= oach and runs the risk of prior
restraint and many other = problems. In particular who gets to decide
what is object= ionable?

And, worse, just may not work= .

Bear in mind, for example, that face= book receives approximately two
billion posts per day and= in many, many languages.

Tagging can = also be provided by third parties as a service.

Notably those third-party services could be native to the languag= e and
culture where the content might be objectionable. T= hey might even make
some money providing this service.
One recurring problem with internet issu= es is that of scaling.

In the mind's e= ye one might imagine, and this applies to members of
legi= slative bodies in particular, that one can identify a message
which in their opinion should be blocked.

So, therefore, how much more difficult could it be to block all s= uch
messages for everyone?

It is much, much more difficult.

After over 20 years of activism the spam and phishing problems remain
huge problems.

And thre= atening legal or financial violence does not /prima facie/
make the problem any easier

--
        -Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die    | bzs@TheWorld.com       = ;     | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD      | 80= 0-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989  | A Public Informa= tion Utility | *oo*


____________________= ___________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listin= fo/hrpc


<= /div> ------=_Part_5643048_961234659.1536965576705-- From nobody Fri Sep 14 15:57:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA823130F52 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:57:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PTRekv1tMXg0 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic301-14.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic301-14.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.247]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DD8D130E7F for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:56:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1536965817; bh=6SBmrmK56PSxx0/xSnuAgxoZ7qeyPojRwX5MTMzYlt4=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=OPLUhU2QGPgt6mwXFLrnS76aXoKTK+2nBWLN8ezVANQ1xQEEL23K815+vmosV3ClRJWxsBmqH3xjlFpZ/n7eC4WQ/9UsBoicFppSCJ0e1GY4ETHFFugBaDruVQBfDJcpy2cL0Tgbqmc2fQy/WOkPUvWVHkA80q2lMOWRxFZqUiotzB97kORHCPQAqyUEogmdNh+u3B5zFmzYNVXFAB+H2IWmC5D0lDx5kpftTwHSIQaRcFP+MDZ+cR2tlOYiA9T41GyNd+OmUhlMmYAMTuFoebeVnUWydi3HVeBJm0lXR602vhn69z9cNYDiMaINLMxBGunqjs/vFB+cwAop1VJpoA== X-YMail-OSG: RcFvqyUVM1m_RWyyu_CyIqlrpdmR1Uw8HLiFU6_WuXtcBaRvie5bzvTFXE71l8B v1SWnqXpKQ3ImbDS0pywtqWjpqL.U4x.UvGrrJCEHqOeG0GovqeBQEpUGv1MhZxPEtdHO.bM0ERN PyJi0OLKnjE3MTbhGYWISaAdwr3SPk9kX6AaFn6e.96CTaUhcIigpa3qUpbtZqC8.BRMbAollJnd 2cfYOxZHDP1TpVVdNPHsGLiAdY.HFSurM_x4UQhCAxxz4C9SL2p6gLBG8Hvf_VuZKVwZ5srWoj1w d9Bm2KTmdHIejsoCM0jPv4Nv8vm6T5Ce8B5Zr6k2bhxBVHhdX4cjG5Tby7hy4Bq6Zu3h3.mhCf8x WOOqUzGVAo9ZMu6bCbUH8JE6T53hgxH1TW6r0q.E3zFt8zgL7Vb_t07VdO5mRg5uQ27_UlVoI07g _Xn86qi7pkhHcTt0z7naqu8Ef8p4lfhh3b27PK8VAxL8zsebY1W3oF7cVOic6XEzM3dfPjF5S9KW HGN7YfwGk07..ZUE1Cn51wxwnOusAFj5a52vR9dfNGDUmHbNhTItFiWlIOacR3qrzwuY7e5xxo89 o0hPrqAEjTXH3d_5ZMm9wxJ.ZbZjqEOrMhEfMJQmktRTCR0wsVc9TwYzS4r0Y4pG3kX4ysvk9X8. 8i7IQ__56LndmWp2SfU3Fk.23e9wJ_atNy_zlWIgF6eMaUMUUFzoZUEU35My5ZwjpoYG5Iu.SaeE Cpg9_ypmOtq23cIU.bY2XrLjZKH0ptDMpvlSki330OIXpWU5V0ERkLwPbylVgEOC1Ak9Eygnz6ut PXlutRIsTLiF7KaEXCpxSWhJ7Kdsz9EIXekLsmWudGYXjwjt6PydJDg_mJgTqgknEyYPp_uAjXpX lFTzBlB.COoAYKJIErC6SVQja2Y7ErmqaNXIb1Oil7x..wlY8W8cXCjQffIQ8oIIEb4hZrZX8vOS FhjUSGZ9dWCv7AJlgLblQ7e1C.ONn9aMbM3E9NV2VmuE1a3Kmtyu9oaeA00Q69C3JcYqdz5RVe_k MaI3o56pfADBI Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 22:56:57 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 22:52:56 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Mark Perkins Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <12063753.5643049.1536965576708@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1248427116.3443195.1536961562086@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <23451.63703.370103.257688@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1248427116.3443195.1536961562086@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5643048_961234659.1536965576705" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12406 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.92 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 22:57:17 -0000 ------=_Part_5643048_961234659.1536965576705 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, Sorry for the top post.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I am at the airport.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Need t= o get my daughter situated in graduate school. I agree, however, with your assessment.=C2=A0 But I would add that a proble= m statement, use cases, and description needs to be done as a start to disc= ussion. I think it is not clear if there is a role for the IETF (I suspect there is= ) nor do we know the parameters and boundaries of the problem. I must say that I was guilty of proposing a premature solution with the IAN= A registry.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I will be out of touch for a few days due to the ab= ove mentioned family responsibilities. But, I will be pondering and possibly starting on some thoughts on a proble= m description.=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: Mark Perkins To: Nalini J Elkins =20 Cc: Hrpc Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content =20 Getting back to the original question I think one area where this intersects with protocols is the question of no= tification of the reason for blocking, with the possibility of linking to t= he court order (hopefully it will be court rather than administrative order= s, even if the courts only confirm after the administration !) While not all social media networks may use this possibility, at least if i= t is available then it can be a point of pressure . Mark P. On Saturday, September 15, 2018, 5:08:20 AM GMT+11, = wrote: =20 =20 =20 A possibly useful and maybe even relevant angle on this is the distinction between blocking content and tagging content. For example so that a person can use a setting in their browser (perhaps via a plug-in / add-on) or other software filtering to determine what they will or will not see. Blocking and demanding services block content seems like a primitive, sledgehammer, pass the buck, approach and runs the risk of prior restraint and many other problems. In particular who gets to decide what is objectionable? And, worse, just may not work. Bear in mind, for example, that facebook receives approximately two billion posts per day and in many, many languages. Tagging can also be provided by third parties as a service. Notably those third-party services could be native to the language and culture where the content might be objectionable. They might even make some money providing this service. One recurring problem with internet issues is that of scaling. In the mind's eye one might imagine, and this applies to members of legislative bodies in particular, that one can identify a message which in their opinion should be blocked. So, therefore, how much more difficult could it be to block all such messages for everyone? It is much, much more difficult. After over 20 years of activism the spam and phishing problems remain huge problems. And threatening legal or financial violence does not /prima facie/ make the problem any easier --=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | bzs@TheWorld.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 800-T= HE-WRLD The World: Since 1989=C2=A0 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 =20 ------=_Part_5643048_961234659.1536965576705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,

Sorry for the top post.   I am at = the airport.   Need to get my daughter situated in graduate schoo= l.

<= /span>
I agree, however, with your= assessment.  But I would add that a problem statement, use cases, and= description needs to be done as a start to discussion.

I think it is not clear if there is a= role for the IETF (I suspect there is) nor do we know the parameters and b= oundaries of the problem.

I must say that I was guilty of proposing a premature solution with= the IANA registry.   I will be out of touch for a few days due t= o the above mentioned family responsibilities.

But, I will be ponde= ring and possibly starting on some thoughts on a problem description.
 
Th= anks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
w= ww.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Mark Perkins <marknoumea@yahoo.c= om>
To: Nalini J El= kins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>
Cc: Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:46 PM=
Subject: Re: [hrpc] F= ines for Social Media for Terrorism Content

Getting back= to the original question

I think one = area where this intersects with protocols is the question of notification o= f the reason for blocking, with the possibility of linking to the court ord= er (hopefully it will be court rather than administrative orders, even if t= he courts only confirm after the administration !)

While not all social media networks may use this possibility, = at least if it is available then it can be a point of pressure .

Mark P.
=20
=20
On Saturday, September 15, 2018, 5:08:20 AM GMT+11, &l= t;bzs@theworld.com> wrote:



A possibly useful = and maybe even relevant angle on this is the
distinction = between blocking content and tagging content.

For example so that a person can use a setting in their browser(perhaps via a plug-in / add-on) or other software filteri= ng to
determine what they will or will not see.

Blocking and demanding services block content = seems like a primitive,
sledgehammer, pass the buck, appr= oach and runs the risk of prior
restraint and many other = problems. In particular who gets to decide
what is object= ionable?

And, worse, just may not work= .

Bear in mind, for example, that face= book receives approximately two
billion posts per day and= in many, many languages.

Tagging can = also be provided by third parties as a service.

Notably those third-party services could be native to the languag= e and
culture where the content might be objectionable. T= hey might even make
some money providing this service.
One recurring problem with internet issu= es is that of scaling.

In the mind's e= ye one might imagine, and this applies to members of
legi= slative bodies in particular, that one can identify a message
which in their opinion should be blocked.

So, therefore, how much more difficult could it be to block all s= uch
messages for everyone?

It is much, much more difficult.

After over 20 years of activism the spam and phishing problems remain
huge problems.

And thre= atening legal or financial violence does not /prima facie/
make the problem any easier

--
        -Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die    | bzs@TheWorld.com       = ;     | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD      | 80= 0-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989  | A Public Informa= tion Utility | *oo*


____________________= ___________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listin= fo/hrpc


<= /div> ------=_Part_5643048_961234659.1536965576705-- From nobody Fri Sep 14 16:12:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE27312872C for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 16:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zXSj8MTdFVla for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 16:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96CB612426A for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US-large X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 788438cbfdc4dc137ce560360a3a99c7 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 23:12:50 -0000 On 2018-09-14 11:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete extre= mist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk of being fin= ed.=20 >> > [=E2=80=A6] > >> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if pe= ople feel that this has implications for human rights=20 >> and protocols. (I believe it does!)=20 > Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond > the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be > interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which > is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_. Is there > a useful distinction to be drawn? If so, where is it? +1 It could be an interesting discussion. The W3C Encrypted Media Extensions standard is arguably a way to attempt to deal with a range of content regulation issues, ant it references many RFCs. But neither of the specific sub-tasks performed by the referenced RFCs are the defining feature of what EME does and their creation was not motivated by or through the main objective for EME. best regards, Amelia > Best regards, > > A > --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Fri Sep 14 18:02:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A11F9130DC3 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 18:02:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qTN5N6B8YXd0 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 18:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls5.std.com [192.74.137.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8978E129C6B for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 18:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8F11MoN025144; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 21:01:25 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8F11HZe009905; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 21:01:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23452.23005.484254.839099@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 21:01:17 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Amelia Andersdotter Cc: hrpc@irtf.org In-Reply-To: References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 01:02:07 -0000 My knee-jerk reaction is that this thread is silly but I suppose it came up for a reason. Other terms are used to express the same or similar concepts, server/client and daemon/client come to mind. A daemon is a piece of software on a server system which is always present (or appears to be) and wakes up when a specific request arrives. For example one often speaks of the mail daemon which accepts incoming email (MTA, mail transfer agent.) In the technical community, depending on the context, they might even be expressing shades of gray which the non-technical might have trouble grasping. For example FTP (file transfer protocol) switches roles between server and client during normal operation. A lot of software particularly in the CMS (content management system) sphere has facilities for "role" which might be hierarchical ("admin", "guest") or might be just distribution of labor ("editors".) In the popular X11 window system the "server" software runs on the client (e.g., PC or laptop) and the "client" software generally runs on the server (the big beefy box) sometimes causing much confusion. Many years ago "local user" on many time-sharing systems got shortened (in the software also) to "luser" (read: loser) which no doubt was meant to be humorous but often implied a class structure: People who ran the systems (high priests) and had system privileges vs those who were merely unprivileged rabble (users, lusers.) In my (ISP) company I always eschewed the use of "user" and preferred "customer". "User" always had a negative or at least dehumanizing connotation to me. I think it was Dave Clark (MIT) who is credited with saying that a computer operating system etc is basically just a way to rename things. Meaning to create layers upon layers of abstractions and giving the pieces new names presumably until those who have to use those abstractions are comfortable. We don't like to enter hex codes or binary so we assign names to those codes, we group those codes into programs and give those programs names, etc. But it doesn't really change their nature except in our mental abstractions, it's all just ones and zeros banging around. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Sat Sep 15 05:20:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332B5130EC2 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 05:20:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8S8gcR2obQYl for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 05:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38F83130E12 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 05:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g19YJ-0003yF-Fn; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 14:19:55 +0200 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 12:19:54 +0000 (UTC) From: Mallory Knodel To: Ted Lemon Cc: Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <2076828517.47324610.1537013994635.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> In-Reply-To: References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.7.11_GA_1854 (zclient/8.7.11_GA_1854) Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99?= Terminology Was Removed from Python Thread-Index: 9pTJYAIXkNgzR9KHAqBxaoT+/2g/dw== X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 76f3589a93270604ea078d468a2051b3 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 12:20:00 -0000 Ted=E2=80=99s quick research results heartened me but then Mark posted an 8= 000 series RFC using the terms, I=E2=80=99m the title even! I would imagine there=E2=80=99s even less progress on blacklist/whitelist. = Always happy to be wrong about these things. -M ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted Lemon To: Corinne Cath Cc: Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:42:09 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [hrpc] =E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99 Terminology Was Removed = from Python On Sep 14, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Corinne Cath wrote: > Other than people perceiving the "primary" "secondary" option being insuf= ficient, have you heard other reasons why people are reluctant to retire th= e slave/master terminology? I think they just don't see it as particularly important, and there are a h= uge number of documents that use the terms, so fixing it would definitely c= reate confusion and require work to be done. Although actually in reading the current terminology document, it looks lik= e in fact master has been deprecated in favor of primary, and slave in favo= r of secondary, so maybe it's less of an issue than I thought (the conversa= tion I'm remembering was a few years ago, probably in the context of an IES= G review of a DNS document). The document still uses the term "master file" though, and the terms "maste= r" and "slave" are documented, but now as deprecated synonyms rather than p= rimary concepts. Looking back at RFC 7719, which the new document replaces, it looks like ma= ster and slave were already deprecated then. From nobody Sat Sep 15 05:50:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E65130DE6 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 05:50:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GS_WrGs45Fql for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 05:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D785412F1A2 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2076828517.47324610.1537013994635.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="h8kiiEjdtwFVfW18rRS7EgpJ0MnrBxKiR" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 12:50:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --h8kiiEjdtwFVfW18rRS7EgpJ0MnrBxKiR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="U8npafAeHJmHsoznYZJBrGMiSpH2GJF6r"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Mallory Knodel , Ted Lemon Cc: Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <17382600-0e98-9281-6363-4edd0d06ba11@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[hrpc]_=e2=80=98Master/Slave=e2=80=99_Terminology_Was?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Removed_from_Python?= References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <2076828517.47324610.1537013994635.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <2076828517.47324610.1537013994635.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> --U8npafAeHJmHsoznYZJBrGMiSpH2GJF6r Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0FC1A0DB5C2DEC1326C5F969" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0FC1A0DB5C2DEC1326C5F969 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 15/09/18 13:19, Mallory Knodel wrote: > I would imagine there=E2=80=99s even less progress on blacklist/whiteli= st. > Always happy to be wrong about these things. Blocklist is fairly commonly used in anti-spam. I'm not sure there's a good alternate term for whitelist that'd work as a noun and verb. As to the thread in general: I'm not sure these terms are so hugely problematic, but I do think it's good to consider if there are useful alternative terms with less baggage and to try encourage (but not try enforce) use of those where they're useful enough terms. 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; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 05:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64A6E130DE6 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 05:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g1A91-0002cQ-1q; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 14:57:51 +0200 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 12:57:45 +0000 (UTC) From: Mallory Knodel To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Ted Lemon , Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <1587354794.47523302.1537016265454.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <17382600-0e98-9281-6363-4edd0d06ba11@cs.tcd.ie> References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <2076828517.47324610.1537013994635.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> <17382600-0e98-9281-6363-4edd0d06ba11@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.7.11_GA_1854 (zclient/8.7.11_GA_1854) Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99?= Terminology Was Removed from Python Thread-Index: qWUw+C6GPYWGzOPYttcEadEe6W50CA== X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 5a1627636b35b65657045ef62631cd80 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 12:57:55 -0000 Blocklist and allowlist.=20 The latter is no more clunky than the former.=20 Already in use by some folks.=20 -M ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Farrell To: Mallory Knodel , Ted Lemon Cc: Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten O= ever Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 12:50:18 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [hrpc] =E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99 Terminology Was Removed = from Python On 15/09/18 13:19, Mallory Knodel wrote: > I would imagine there=E2=80=99s even less progress on blacklist/whitelist= . > Always happy to be wrong about these things. Blocklist is fairly commonly used in anti-spam. I'm not sure there's a good alternate term for whitelist that'd work as a noun and verb. As to the thread in general: I'm not sure these terms are so hugely problematic, but I do think it's good to consider if there are useful alternative terms with less baggage and to try encourage (but not try enforce) use of those where they're useful enough terms. S. From nobody Sat Sep 15 06:22:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46634130E23 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:22:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=brYmbEjh; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=i6EgkH8G Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sb0A_3SNRk_w for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F5A6130E22 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([197.226.50.192]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8FDMBqA011017 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:22:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1537017742; x=1537104142; bh=2GNBsezrSar2UtYaXeGx1aF++1npxQSHWpVq1AOCUGw=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=brYmbEjhtm+AtHANuMwJQtp+ecInCvv/1SQs/xP4VyNONpMF8N5gO4a4Gd/sjpUvU XioHyCLgvaBlfs9BjfCwq4Si1aUBVYHvF/BIT1nqNU3Rq71vTSmCn4cdYhcn5FVRDi pl3alo3kZ6GVXJdgkZGZywJPjyPln0YbFhB+AD2o= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1537017742; x=1537104142; i=@elandsys.com; bh=2GNBsezrSar2UtYaXeGx1aF++1npxQSHWpVq1AOCUGw=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=i6EgkH8G56DdrIL4RkdlQbMmcBqBeFJixra1sqxxQhHmNaEWBujNUnAhGMFnrTd// OP858g1IfkdZPR+IdcfCBGSKk/Vbh7diN2/CyPiM4ipEvukSBEEQ2WVU6071vYKvtl R0iqk5GHHDS0k1qjD3mWwAXlggE3cxpXwzVtZSQs= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20180915050725.11ca3ae8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:21:41 -0700 To: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org From: S Moonesamy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 13:22:31 -0000 Hi Mallory, >It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments >to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development >try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, >like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to >precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower >layers. The measures are usually about social media regulation as there has been cases where content distributed through social media has caused events which have a negative impact or which are viewed as unacceptable by a significant population. On the standards development side, the existing security techniques were viewed as inadequate given the public knowledge that they have been circumvented. It is easier for a regulatory body to impose a penalty on social media instead of trying to influence the design and development of a standard. Regards, S. 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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a10-v6sm6692496qkj.60.2018.09.15.07.26.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 15 Sep 2018 07:26:49 -0700 (PDT) To: S Moonesamy , Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org References: <6.2.5.6.2.20180915050725.11ca3ae8@elandnews.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <2cb84965-8376-1607-a4c6-029aaeae63bb@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 10:26:48 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20180915050725.11ca3ae8@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 14:26:52 -0000 There are many legal and standards developments promulgated to implement security techniques.=C2=A0 The EU has multiple directives, and ETSI TC CY= BER has an array of specifications developed that borrow from best of breed techniques like the Critical Security Controls and OASIS' STIX - to name two prominent ones.=C2=A0 Nearly all of the many industry and governmenta= l standards bodies as well as major OS vendors have also invested enormous resources - Microsoft, Google, Oracle - among others.=C2=A0 The ultimate challenges are=C2=A0 that the preponderance of end users don't possess th= e knowledge and resources to implement the capabilities, and the concatenation of all the potential vulnerabilities outpaces the ability to keep the risks low.=C2=A0 -t On 15-Sep-18 9:21 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > impact or which are viewed as unacceptable by a significant > population.=C2=A0 On the standards development side, the existing secur= ity > techniques were viewed as inadequate given the public knowledge that > they have been circumvented.=C2=A0 It is easier for a regulatory body t= o > impose a penalty on social media instead of trying to influence the > design and development of a standard. From nobody Sat Sep 15 11:01:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82043130E04 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 11:00:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ep08WjVKKs5q for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 11:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic316-19.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic316-19.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.130.193]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2258130DFB for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 11:00:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537034454; bh=QU2yzXdIuNFh/WFnWJ9Q8TKKYK36o9Oaow0Ua6Wn6yA=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=gLLvI4j1P/CzpbSDh5wRInCumaLaAKYS3CCPxz3c/lrFUtYp57aiN/SOcoxNhAASYIIQHmLi6Qgh0lKZ62iTNV41e1HVUdIsKnhFVjLyMkTyun5PvhHVYLVz734kpvT/ZH3VRDA6DdQz6YMQlx9wcYoOoRKr4qAyfIpcte+Bd1C717EsKOE/0WEezie9+9r3EElw6Mo77zrxQVCPmJbT9qZb5A2kbe/AephBEUZw+rUy1cC4A2ZaT7UJsYV6F81skc4CiFgTsPEpKcrSRhd5yCa/Po7OH/xaxxlaA84Qq5Eq3FQ57KZ/Q+rGuX+g4nX0ktDbMIDblMT1pXj2ZiP8rQ== X-YMail-OSG: _CdqiCMVM1lW6HSLLuFaa9vP9TwCJbwgC8wB8C3xo0gjgPbNOTcExk1fLnTuwtD N2jhheeqv8CX7COVjfcGat8tsSL.toCXEnZ1SwLycRgXguv5wfnY2tfkPLlNuXTDZXR6ltWdKn2e pxX6dhWVkfcROpIOye.1bXTBwAxatPXFZgELR1F46YmhmYX3wJmRHhs6suCyZuC_izygKDqFH_HU lPJn4phRKgWPrwXSv9BLCU9iTlwrSnG07XF3Z.yw57IKYh_Qsr31zvoZJHRHy5eosuKyhuyTjYO7 OmouB.rbCgH1.8G11_i1sks_jWzjoORitCNDOgNd2vs2aBG183xDc1ttpvatffDKx3TadP490AG7 aXFa1_OjXIni8OuPud4rQqSJMozjrc0D.UVChRm2LUsLoA2vFgAjIoNwJfSDJAM2Kdx1XH5RDPCr DoyhuchVMAMqfMvmAEqLELpq4Xjxk7fHueyFztdD5lrOb27Tk9PjU69QOLxUYoO_Awqx_Cu6d_dz i5Guw0b7LNP3kRa2GML6UYt3qMYP8DbeE9b0koFAPMBTdqvERX0PdiORqgzPTOsMKQk.DYBer._T YyWZr.S_Nuq_ll67A1pZMa4uxJi4ryl9IL.Z7r.wgmwWdmwhhPJBhJD9uqyaFdS07dZ9zaXsMsm1 fvvVVkv2zgk.kSj5s7NH.S0HR6AIh7eymf4Ohnr4Zl3I5u8AmQnUyv_Y8cKYi2uSUhJhcwft9EIj 6pharVQoAc40gYGtkqR6jjPSalSHoX35XlrbiZWrg4wgWxqiIJPjSIMWcagnCiNK9Up2rf1yqjiP Kj06O6bNJPzBpP7aSvcJEFt2LXJbrmRnP4nCDzsfgrfeEzZiJrTZRz0sxJEU1pOOeGHvuKZY36uu YdIYkAWt3YA35a2_svWc4c6ZZmrDpTF7aSB94a4xSAECClF8uxDnhaOXCWr09ehFTrT.XDB6qCw1 Ir4jFm3Z_ResaAnRl_O6x2tJPvPHPU.N4NtDH54cd_CqpSg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic316.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 18:00:54 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 18:00:48 +0000 (UTC) From: Bill Jouris Reply-To: Bill Jouris To: Tony Rutkowski , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <1362257609.5489563.1537034448782@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5add6718-14ff-d77a-d88a-1543d835d005@gmail.com> References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> <196203167.5405723.1536937977769@mail.yahoo.com> <5add6718-14ff-d77a-d88a-1543d835d005@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5489562_1633144888.1537034448774" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12406 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:62.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/62.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 18:01:00 -0000 ------=_Part_5489562_1633144888.1537034448774 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tony,=20 Unfortunately, your first sentence is only 2/3 true.=C2=A0 Legislators and = administrators do have such access.=C2=A0 Often they actually use it.=C2=A0= Which is good.=20 But judges also make policy.=C2=A0 Typically, they have minimal, if any, un= derstanding of technology -- outside patent lawyers, it's not generally par= t of a pre-law education.=C2=A0 Yet they make rulings which have enormous i= mpacts.=C2=A0=20 It may be that this is a separate problem that needs to be addressed.=C2=A0= But it definitely is a problem -- and not just for computer-related techno= logy. Bill Jouris=20 From: Tony Rutkowski To: Nalini J Elkins ; Mallory Knodel ; "hrpc@irtf.org" =20 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content =20 Hi Nalini, However, policy makers - whoever those are - generally have acc= ess to considerable understanding of the technology - even if they often la= ck personal understanding.=C2=A0 The multiple bodies dealing with legislati= ve, regulatory, judicial, and standards making policy/law have a plethora o= f information on the subject.=C2=A0 There are usually dozens if not hundred= s of parties who provide those inputs - with different perspectives and out= comes.=C2=A0 They weigh the requirements, the capabilities, the costs, and = the consequences differently.=C2=A0 Indeed, potential tort liabilities for = the consequences is likely to be a more compelling factor than regulatory r= equirements.=C2=A0 See, e.g.,https://www.lawfareblog.com/civil-liability-en= d-end-encryption-threat-or-fantasy-part-ii This hprc group and the participant advocates play an important role tha= t deserves to be supported and nurtured.=C2=A0 It will arguably be more eff= ective to aware of the different perspectives and requirements - that are i= n fact related to many human rights other than just expression that have be= come more important because of significant contemporary developments. With = this, I'll also sigh and go about the day.... --tony =20 On 14-Sep-18 11:12 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: =20 =20 Tony,=20 >If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a lo= ng time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies=20 My point was not to reopen the encryption battle but to note that policy = makers often lack understanding of technology as a general statement.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks, =20 Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360=20 =20 From: Tony Rutkowski To: Nalini J Elkins ; Mallory Knodel ; "hrpc@irtf.org" =20 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content =20 Hi Nalini, If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurri= ng for a long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies.=C2=A0 David Ka= hn in his bible on the subject, The Code Breakers, traces the efforts back = to the Egyptian government era, and his reference collection donated to th= e U.S. National Cryptologic Museum includes 16th century handbooks.=C2=A0 O= n the network side, my own historical compilation was published last year b= y Brookings.=C2=A0 https://www.lawfareblog.com/anthony-rutkowski-internatio= nal-signals-intelligence-law-provisions-and-history-lawfare-research Nearly every country has similar collections, and ETSI TC CYBER maintains= a list of all the different national cryptologic and reference collections= .=C2=A0 What is super cool is the London Science's Museum's exhibit being c= reated for next year.=C2=A0 https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/gchq-celeb= rate-centenary-2019 Today, the use cases of concern are less terrorists tha= n a major State adversary such as the FSB or GRU using encrypted tunnels to= disrupt the foundational institutions of society that have a profound adve= rse impact on all human rights.=C2=A0 See, e.g., https://arstechnica.com/in= formation-technology/2018/07/from-bitly-to-x-agent-how-gru-hackers-targeted= -the-2016-presidential-election/ Can we agree that State black ops agencies= do not have a human right to free expression of content via encrypted tunn= els? -t =20 On 14-Sep-18 9:57 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: =20 =20 > It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governm= ents > to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development > try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, > like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to > precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower > layers.=20 I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead..=20 I participated in a discussion at a think tank a while back where the top= ic for discussion was:=C2=A0 (paraphrased by me)=20 "When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be followed b= y inevitable overreach by government to regulate?=C2=A0 And what might it b= e?"=20 The topic at hand happened to be encryption.=C2=A0 =C2=A0One can indeed i= magine a scenario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for examp= le) might have been prevented.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They may not understand the deta= ils of the protocols but they may *think* they do.=20 This is why=C2=A0I submit that control of content is indeed a set of topi= cs for engineers to be a part of the discussion.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Otherwise, as = you can see, others are doing it.=20 The words you use "anti-censorship" and "resilience of content" might be = construed as having a bias towards one side.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That is non-neutr= al.=20 I wonder if we might find other words and a vocabulary / taxonomy for non= -biased discussion? =C2=A0 Thanks, =20 Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360=20 =20 From: Mallory Knodel To: hrpc@irtf.org=20 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content =20 On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, >=20 > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete >> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk >> of being fined. >>=20 >=20 > [=E2=80=A6] >=20 >> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if >> people feel that this has implications for human rights and >> protocols.=C2=A0 (I believe it does!) >=20 > Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond=20 > the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be=20 > interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which=20 > is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_.=C2=A0 Is > there a useful distinction to be drawn?=C2=A0 If so, where is it? >=20 =20 We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow for ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments. =20 It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower layers. =20 -Mallory --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780= =20 =20 _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_5489562_1633144888.1537034448774 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tony= ,
=
Unfortunately, your first senten= ce is only 2/3 true.  Legislators and administrators do have such acce= ss.  Often they actually use it.  Which is good.

<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537032949790_89737">But judges also make policy.  Typically, they= have minimal, if any, understanding of technology -- outside patent lawyer= s, it's not generally part of a pre-law education.  Yet they make ruli= ngs which have enormous impacts. 

<= span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537032949790_89769">It may be that this is a = separate problem that needs to be addressed.  But it definitely is a p= roblem -- and not just for computer-related technology.

Bill Jour= is


From: Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com&g= t;
To: Nalini J Elkins= <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>; Mallory Knodel <mallory@artic= le19.org>; "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 8:38 AM
= Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines= for Social Media for Terrorism Content

Hi Nalini,
However, policy makers - whoever those are - generally have access to considerable understanding of the technology - even if they often lack personal understanding.  The multiple bodies dealing with legislative, regulatory, judicial, and standards making policy/law have a plethora of information on the subject. = ; There are usually dozens if not hundreds of parties who provide those inputs - with different perspectives and outcomes.  They weigh the requirements, the capabilities, the costs, and the consequences differently.  Indeed, potential tort liabilities fo= r the consequences is likely to be a more compelling factor than regulatory requirements.  See, e.g., https://www.lawfareblog.com/c= ivil-liability-end-end-encryption-threat-or-fantasy-part-ii
This hprc group and the participant advocates play an important role that deserves to be supported and nurtured.  It will arguab= ly be more effective to aware of the different perspectives and requirements - that are in fact related to many human rights other than just expression that have become more important because of significant contemporary developments.
With this, I'll also sigh and go about the day....
--tony

=
On 14-Sep-18 11:12 AM, Nalini J= Elkins wrote:
Tony,

>If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies=

My point was not to reopen the encryption battle but to note that policy makers often lack understanding of technology as a general statement.  
&nbs= p;
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Tony Rutkowski <rut= kowski.tony@gmail.com>
To: Nalini J Elkins <nali= ni.elkins@insidethestack.com>; Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.o= rg>; "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content

Hi Nalini,
If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies.  David Kahn in his bible on t= he subject, The Code Breakers, traces the efforts back to the Egyptian government era, and his reference collection donated to the U.S. National Cryptologic Museum includes 16th century handbooks.  On the network side, my own historic= al compilation was published last year by Brookings.&nbs= p; https://www.lawfareblog.com/anthony-rutkowski-= international-signals-intelligence-law-provisions-and-history-lawfare-resea= rch
Nearly every country has similar collections, and ETSI TC CYBER maintains a list of all the different national cryptologic and reference collections.  What is super cool is the London Science's Museum's exhibit being created for next year.  <= a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" class=3D"yiv6801103063moz-txt-link-freete= xt" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/gchq-cel= ebrate-centenary-2019">https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/gchq-celebrate-= centenary-2019
Today, the use cases of concern are less terrorists than a major State adversary such as the FSB or GRU using encrypted tunnels to disrupt the foundational institutions of society that have a profound adverse impact on all human rights.  See, e.g., https://arstechnica.com/information-t= echnology/2018/07/from-bitly-to-x-agent-how-gru-hackers-targeted-the-2016-p= residential-election/
Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right to free expression of content via encrypted tunnels?
-t

On 14-Sep-18 9:57 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments
> to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development
> try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content,
> like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to
> precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower
> layers.

I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead..<= /div>

I participated in a discussion at a think tank a while back where the topic for discussion was:  (paraphrased by me)

"When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be followed by inevitable overreach by government to regulate?  And what might it be?"

The topic at hand happened to be encryption.   One can indeed imagine a scenario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for example) might have been prevented.   They may not understand the details of th= e protocols but they may *think* they do.<= /div>

This is why I submit t= hat control of content is indeed a set of topics for engineers to be a part of the discussion.   Otherw= ise, as you can see, others are doing it.

The words you use "anti-censorship" and "resilience of content" might be construed as having a bias towards one side.   That is non-neutral.

I wonder if we might find other words and a vocabulary / taxonomy for non-biased discussion?
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Mallory Knodel &= lt;mallory@article19.org>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent:<= /span> Friday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM
Subjec= t: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content
<= br clear=3D"none">
On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
>> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete
>> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk >> of being fined.
>>
>
> [=E2=80=A6]
>
>> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if
>> people feel that this has implications for human rights and
>> protocols.  (I believe it does!)
>
> Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond
> the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be
> interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which
> is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_.  Is<= br clear=3D"none"> > there a useful distinction to be drawn?  If so, where is it?
>

We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow for
ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments.

It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments
to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development
try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content,
like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to
precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower
layers.

-Mallory
--
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://w= ww.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc




_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
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=
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc



=20
__________= _____________________________________
hrpc mailing listhrpc@irtf.org
htt= ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q43-v6sm7601436qtj.84.2018.09.15.11.52.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 15 Sep 2018 11:52:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Bill Jouris , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2054917319.5186734.1536895153811@mail.yahoo.com> <20180914090055.n32gen5pln6oqufq@mx4.yitter.info> <568020e0-48c8-385c-490f-cab43bd6c488@article19.org> <888268146.5344491.1536933451654@mail.yahoo.com> <681d32a3-d317-5124-bb76-6796b2070ebb@gmail.com> <196203167.5405723.1536937977769@mail.yahoo.com> <5add6718-14ff-d77a-d88a-1543d835d005@gmail.com> <1362257609.5489563.1537034448782@mail.yahoo.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 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<49b8551c-2c83-e607-3849-5aa64ec66015@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 14:52:00 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1362257609.5489563.1537034448782@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6F4562D03C00F1398FC225B6" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 18:52:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6F4562D03C00F1398FC225B6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill, We are getting into a level of detail that is probably outside the remit of this=C2=A0 group.=C2=A0 Perhaps it is fairer to characterize the knowl= edge base as context dependent and variable among the different jurisdictions.=C2=A0= Chief Justice Roberts opinion for a unanimous Court in Riley, for example, suggests he had a relatively good understanding that even earned him kudos in Recode. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/13-132_8l9c.pdf https://www.recode.net/2014/6/26/11628392/scotus-gets-it-encryption-is-a-= basic-security-feature-not-a-sign-you -t On 15-Sep-18 2:00 PM, Bill Jouris wrote: > Hi Tony, > > Unfortunately, your first sentence is only 2/3 true.=C2=A0 Legislators = and > administrators do have such access.=C2=A0 Often they actually use it.=C2= =A0 > Which is good. > > But judges also make policy.=C2=A0 Typically, they have minimal, if any= , > understanding of technology -- outside patent lawyers, it's not > generally part of a pre-law education.=C2=A0 Yet they make rulings whic= h > have enormous impacts.=C2=A0 > > It may be that this is a separate problem that needs to be addressed.=C2= =A0 > But it definitely is a problem -- and not just for computer-related > technology. > > Bill Jouris > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > *From:* Tony Rutkowski > *To:* Nalini J Elkins ; Mallory > Knodel ; "hrpc@irtf.org" > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2018 8:38 AM > *Subject:* Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content > > Hi Nalini, > However, policy makers - whoever those are - generally have access to > considerable understanding of the technology - even if they often lack > personal understanding.=C2=A0 The multiple bodies dealing with legislat= ive, > regulatory, judicial, and standards making policy/law have a plethora > of information on the subject.=C2=A0 There are usually dozens if not > hundreds of parties who provide those inputs - with different > perspectives and outcomes.=C2=A0 They weigh the requirements, the > capabilities, the costs, and the consequences differently.=C2=A0 Indeed= , > potential tort liabilities for the consequences is likely to be a more > compelling factor than regulatory requirements.=C2=A0 See, e.g., > https://www.lawfareblog.com/civil-liability-end-end-encryption-threat-o= r-fantasy-part-ii > This hprc group and the participant advocates play an important role > that deserves to be supported and nurtured.=C2=A0 It will arguably be m= ore > effective to aware of the different perspectives and requirements - > that are in fact related to many human rights other than just > expression that have become more important because of significant > contemporary developments. > With this, I'll also sigh and go about the day.... > --tony > > On 14-Sep-18 11:12 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > Tony, > > >If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a > long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies > > My point was not to reopen the encryption battle but to note that > policy makers often lack understanding of technology as a general > statement.=C2=A0=C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > *From:* Tony Rutkowski > > *To:* Nalini J Elkins > ; Mallory Knodel > ; > "hrpc@irtf.org" > > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2018 7:29 AM > *Subject:* Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content > > Hi Nalini, > If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a > long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies.=C2=A0 David Kahn in= his > bible on the subject, The Code Breakers, traces the efforts back to > the Egyptian government era, and his reference collection donated to > the U.S. National Cryptologic Museum includes 16th century handbooks.=C2= =A0 > On the network side, my own historical compilation was published last > year by Brookings.=C2=A0 > https://www.lawfareblog.com/anthony-rutkowski-international-signals-int= elligence-law-provisions-and-history-lawfare-research > Nearly every country has similar collections, and ETSI TC CYBER > maintains a list of all the different national cryptologic and > reference collections.=C2=A0 What is super cool is the London Science's= > Museum's exhibit being created for next year.=C2=A0 > https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/gchq-celebrate-centenary-2019 > Today, the use cases of concern are less terrorists than a major State > adversary such as the FSB or GRU using encrypted tunnels to disrupt > the foundational institutions of society that have a profound adverse > impact on all human rights.=C2=A0 See, e.g., > https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/from-bitly-to-x-= agent-how-gru-hackers-targeted-the-2016-presidential-election/ > Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right > to free expression of content via encrypted tunnels? > -t > > On 14-Sep-18 9:57 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > > It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governmen= ts > > to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards developm= ent > > try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, > > like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to > > precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lowe= r > > layers. > > I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead.. > > I participated in a discussion at a think tank a while back where the > topic for discussion was:=C2=A0 (paraphrased by me) > > "When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be > followed by inevitable overreach by government to regulate?=C2=A0 And w= hat > might it be?" > > The topic at hand happened to be encryption.=C2=A0 =C2=A0One can indeed= imagine > a scenario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for > example) might have been prevented.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They may not understand= the > details of the protocols but they may *think* they do. > > This is why=C2=A0I submit that control of content is indeed a set of to= pics > for engineers to be a part of the discussion.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Otherwise, as= you can > see, others are doing it. > > The words you use "anti-censorship" and "resilience of content" might > be construed as having a bias towards one side.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That is non= -neutral. > > I wonder if we might find other words and a vocabulary / taxonomy for > non-biased discussion? > =C2=A0 > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > *From:* Mallory Knodel > > *To:* hrpc@irtf.org > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM > *Subject:* Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content > > On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > >> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete > >> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk > >> of being fined. > >> > > > > [=E2=80=A6] > > > >> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if > >> people feel that this has implications for human rights and > >> protocols.=C2=A0 (I believe it does!) > > > > Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond > > the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be > > interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which > > is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_.=C2=A0 Is= > > there a useful distinction to be drawn?=C2=A0 If so, where is it? > > > > We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow fo= r > ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments. > > It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments= > to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards developmen= t > try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content, > like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to > precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower > layers. > > -Mallory > --=20 > Mallory Knodel > Head of Digital :: article19.org > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C= 780 > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > --------------6F4562D03C00F1398FC225B6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Bill,

We are getting into a level of detail that is probably outside the remit of this  group.  Perhaps it is fairer to characterize the knowledge base as context dependent and variable among the different jurisdictions.  Chief Justice Roberts opinion for a unanimous Court in Riley, for example, suggests he had a relatively good understanding that even earned him kudos in Recode.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/13-132_8l9c.pdf

https://www.recode.net/2014/6/26/11628392/scotus-gets-it-encryption-is-a-basic-security-feature-not-a-sign-you

-t

On 15-Sep-18 2:00 PM, Bill Jouris wrote:
Hi Tony,

Unfortunately, your first sentence is only 2/3 true.  Legislators and administrators do have such access.  Often they actually use it.  Which is good.

But judges also make policy.  Typically, they have minimal, if any, understanding of technology -- outside patent lawyers, it's not generally part of a pre-law education.  Yet they make rulings which have enormous impacts. 

It may be that this is a separate problem that needs to be addressed.  But it definitely is a problem -- and not just for computer-related technology.

Bill Jouris


From: Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com>
To: Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>; Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>; "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content

Hi Nalini,
However, policy makers - whoever those are - generally have access to considerable understanding of the technology - even if they often lack personal understanding.  The multiple bodies dealing with legislative, regulatory, judicial, and standards making policy/law have a plethora of information on the subject.  There are usually dozens if not hundreds of parties who provide those inputs - with different perspectives and outcomes.  They weigh the requirements, the capabilities, the costs, and the consequences differently.  Indeed, potential tort liabilities for the consequences is likely to be a more compelling factor than regulatory requirements.  See, e.g., https://www.lawfareblog.com/civil-liability-end-end-encryption-threat-or-fantasy-part-ii
This hprc group and the participant advocates play an important role that deserves to be supported and nurtured.  It will arguably be more effective to aware of the different perspectives and requirements - that are in fact related to many human rights other than just expression that have become more important because of significant contemporary developments.
With this, I'll also sigh and go about the day....
--tony

On 14-Sep-18 11:12 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
Tony,

>If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies

My point was not to reopen the encryption battle but to note that policy makers often lack understanding of technology as a general statement.  
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com>
To: Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>; Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>; "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content

Hi Nalini,
If it's any comfort, the encryption battles have been occurring for a long time - as well as evolution of the taxonomies.  David Kahn in his bible on the subject, The Code Breakers, traces the efforts back to the Egyptian government era, and his reference collection donated to the U.S. National Cryptologic Museum includes 16th century handbooks.  On the network side, my own historical compilation was published last year by Brookings.  https://www.lawfareblog.com/anthony-rutkowski-international-signals-intelligence-law-provisions-and-history-lawfare-research
Nearly every country has similar collections, and ETSI TC CYBER maintains a list of all the different national cryptologic and reference collections.  What is super cool is the London Science's Museum's exhibit being created for next year.  https://www.gchq.gov.uk/news-article/gchq-celebrate-centenary-2019
Today, the use cases of concern are less terrorists than a major State adversary such as the FSB or GRU using encrypted tunnels to disrupt the foundational institutions of society that have a profound adverse impact on all human rights.  See, e.g., https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/from-bitly-to-x-agent-how-gru-hackers-targeted-the-2016-presidential-election/
Can we agree that State black ops agencies do not have a human right to free expression of content via encrypted tunnels?
-t

On 14-Sep-18 9:57 AM, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments
> to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development
> try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content,
> like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to
> precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower
> layers.

I agree with you that a conflict may be ahead..

I participated in a discussion at a think tank a while back where the topic for discussion was:  (paraphrased by me)

"When will there be a precipitating event such that it will be followed by inevitable overreach by government to regulate?  And what might it be?"

The topic at hand happened to be encryption.   One can indeed imagine a scenario where people might feel that a terrorist event (for example) might have been prevented.   They may not understand the details of the protocols but they may *think* they do.

This is why I submit that control of content is indeed a set of topics for engineers to be a part of the discussion.   Otherwise, as you can see, others are doing it.

The words you use "anti-censorship" and "resilience of content" might be construed as having a bias towards one side.   That is non-neutral.

I wonder if we might find other words and a vocabulary / taxonomy for non-biased discussion?
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fines for Social Media for Terrorism Content

On 14/09/18 12:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 03:19:13AM +0000, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
>> "The European Commission is planning to order websites to delete
>> extremist content on their sites within an hour to avoid the risk
>> of being fined.
>>
>
> […]
>
>> I hope that we can have an interesting discussion on this topic, if
>> people feel that this has implications for human rights and
>> protocols.  (I believe it does!)
>
> Rather than debate the particular proposal (which I think is beyond
> the remit of this RG), I would like to suggest that it could be
> interesting to discuss whether attempts to regulate _content_ (which
> is what the proposal is) are attempts to affect _protocols_.  Is
> there a useful distinction to be drawn?  If so, where is it?
>

We saw from the PRISM leak that companies implemented tools to allow for
ease of access to user data by Five Eyes governments.

It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments
to regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development
try to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content,
like this group, then at some point that divergence is going to
precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these lower
layers.

-Mallory
--
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc




_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc




_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc



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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i32-v6sm6795414qtb.21.2018.09.16.06.56.49 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Sep 2018 06:56:49 -0700 (PDT) To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <46340680-767b-618e-1795-237d188d6a36@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 09:56:49 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Useful historical reflection on cyber utopianism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 13:56:53 -0000 A noted historian writes an Op-Ed in today's New York Times that seems relevant to this group's remit. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/sunday-review/politics-disruption-medi= a-technology.html You can replace the words "America" with "societies," and "Constitution" with "International Human Rights instruments" - especially at the end. The underlying technologies change.=C2=A0 The actors, motivations, and unintended adverse consequences tend to remain the same. --t From nobody Sun Sep 16 15:32:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E63130E03 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 15:32:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=Za//edpN; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=e1YrhheY Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nYe-jQtbTNfz for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 15:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C560130DFD for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 15:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCA62213E; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 18:32:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 16 Sep 2018 18:32:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=/0dS7iWFHgMKAV1Ww8i6f4tvFrFWL bpMwz8Hm0lp7oM=; b=Za//edpNpHldVdGzoX6o0VxJTKBx1KXlt7/QqPbSUOK81 oBW0+Loeq7uM8X9lv5n/sVQEynt4RNDMK9uPp8IthFhQfX+trJbedWM6xiuWbNgX msZjCrTJw/ymaMDZaQ/tfUIgXH+y3YrGxxNBwGxJypDGi6TQrA1+KT+i11/eWppK ajt7j7nJueSzgmnIksIPuafGNMfKdRJQ/Js3V7HwW1s94hI34T3f3Oy1xnLGoqbQ pY/iA24f0OxHo2nndHI47XdmT3EBCnHGrMwPgA22zQLRNG5PYVxwf0RE4ALolaIU d5yn10GdqHEzyOyOG5TAAPCzPTWBzm7b0IilOuzyw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=/0dS7i WFHgMKAV1Ww8i6f4tvFrFWLbpMwz8Hm0lp7oM=; b=e1YrhheYLdcOkt9Ut8Ynba xdL+L5MBvFuAbST0Na3C6mx3Ze3XTO0VZU0UcsGocunGcoUNPWfeiXoeG8kGhMcQ NYKaks/5q57qn1/blAJb06ezQOLHeetoz8IjQ0DbkOh9Po5Shc3xFLHo4pfbhhgB Q/Gy/bpWaC3HAqsbxMJbY94wXM7n5HRDgb8u9k9p6k5b5tpP03g4F22E6uKJmceE 10pmmcww/4NeKwma89BzC9Ttlg75hiXw+GKVpI8VY7MbfIxfb/Ip+Ng7LBFNy4rq ZaehPLVmwsNN+zpHoDzMZxiRt9jStrXPhglNnMBdW2cwSbzZULTfDhfr9hFjgsZw == X-ME-Proxy: X-ME-Sender: Received: from [10.92.0.27] (unknown [207.10.215.171]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A1403102A0; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 18:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <2076828517.47324610.1537013994635.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 18:31:56 -0400 Cc: Ted Lemon , Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <2076828517.47324610.1537013994635.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> To: Mallory Knodel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 22:32:05 -0000 https://everyrfc.org/?search=3Dblack > On 15 Sep 2018, at 8:19 am, Mallory Knodel = wrote: >=20 > Ted=E2=80=99s quick research results heartened me but then Mark posted = an 8000 series RFC using the terms, I=E2=80=99m the title even! >=20 > I would imagine there=E2=80=99s even less progress on = blacklist/whitelist. Always happy to be wrong about these things. >=20 > -M >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ted Lemon > To: Corinne Cath > Cc: Hrpc , Niels ten Oever > Sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:42:09 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [hrpc] =E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99 Terminology Was = Removed from Python >=20 > On Sep 14, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Corinne Cath = wrote: >> Other than people perceiving the "primary" "secondary" option being = insufficient, have you heard other reasons why people are reluctant to = retire the slave/master terminology? >=20 > I think they just don't see it as particularly important, and there = are a huge number of documents that use the terms, so fixing it would = definitely create confusion and require work to be done. >=20 > Although actually in reading the current terminology document, it = looks like in fact master has been deprecated in favor of primary, and = slave in favor of secondary, so maybe it's less of an issue than I = thought (the conversation I'm remembering was a few years ago, probably = in the context of an IESG review of a DNS document). >=20 > The document still uses the term "master file" though, and the terms = "master" and "slave" are documented, but now as deprecated synonyms = rather than primary concepts. >=20 > Looking back at RFC 7719, which the new document replaces, it looks = like master and slave were already deprecated then. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Sep 18 04:16:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631B6130EF5 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 04:16:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wU1Vt9e4rvSl for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 04:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFB1C130F46 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 04:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E98AB6A239; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:16:19 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1537269380; bh=3KHekUYURdhsCmpt1VOuV0rzoJ2pzZh8BSSchD+Mvz4=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=QdsAINoUYbLbgamfj0w6fh9/00POYWF+iiU8jflK6FnNb0U2QgUvEGvpPym4z2Phr 5o23Mp1+WP2QtFdhS9HEUx8q5PIw1T3CCZY2HRuTpkmGUsUQ0qkJmwD1CXmPmgfOOY ync/yzysK7KPURqAOSxAR4g7lMsuRrhXyxF8zkuiPSDmD72RupxrybPqCMiXSb2WLt Mx7oPTETuLyHGZiiGaJ4fRGTbG1IRF6tVKAdCFJR+jv32Bhvi+TKm1psK/JGsZH8+L mD+WLEok/iBez2htztgAjqILXUW5frhhRJx0dfelP+K2JcgvzqzOPtFAVAUkeVVNJ+ k/p8JI+W42lOg== Received: from null (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C406C3C1C71; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:16:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:16:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <1562357711.13681.1537269379735@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev15 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:16:34 -0000 > Il 14 settembre 2018 alle 20.25 Amelia Andersdotter ha scritto: > The contention is similar as to if it were proposed to change master to > "boss" and slave to "worker". Boss/worker would still accurately > describe the control relationship, and would not have connotations to > historically unjust relationships between peoples of different backgrounds. I don't know how serious this idea is, but as the managing person for a couple of developers, I would be offended if someone alleged that the "boss/worker" relationship is the same as "master/slave", or used the term "worker" as a synonymous replacement for "slave". Actually, modern workplace relationships are in good measure the replacement for ancient slavery-based ones, and one would hope that some progress had been done in the intervening centuries. Also, the "whitelist" and "blacklist" expressions originally derive from the contrast between day and night and have nothing to do with ethnicity or racism. Regards, -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Tue Sep 18 04:30:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57D1130DC0 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 04:30:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pDuuwSOBtxXK for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 04:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD7F41277D2 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1562357711.13681.1537269379735@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 8b3222cd26cce149ddb9ffa05c4da76e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:30:06 -0000 On 09/18/2018 01:16 PM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >> Il 14 settembre 2018 alle 20.25 Amelia Andersdotter ha scritto: >> The contention is similar as to if it were proposed to change master to >> "boss" and slave to "worker". Boss/worker would still accurately >> describe the control relationship, and would not have connotations to >> historically unjust relationships between peoples of different backgrounds. > > I don't know how serious this idea is, but as the managing person for a couple of developers, I would be offended if someone alleged that the "boss/worker" relationship is the same as "master/slave", or used the term "worker" as a synonymous replacement for "slave". Actually, modern workplace relationships are in good measure the replacement for ancient slavery-based ones, and one would hope that some progress had been done in the intervening centuries. I don't think Amelia suggest that. She just suggested better wording, which would be less hurtful, and which would still describe the technical abstraction sufficiently. > > Also, the "whitelist" and "blacklist" expressions originally derive from the contrast between day and night and have nothing to do with ethnicity or racism. > May I suggest that this is not only about where something originates from, or how it makes _you_ feel, but how it makes people from other backgrounds feel? Also, I would be interested to read origin story of whitelists and blacklist, so any reference would be appreciated. I thought it came from a conception that white is good and black is bad, which of course is inherently problematic. But am always happy to learn. Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Tue Sep 18 04:39:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0833A1292AD for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 04:39:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vl50vvb2T1pZ for ; 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d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="6577905" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 18 Sep 2018 11:39:25 +0000 Received: from [10.61.78.43] (ams3-vpn-dhcp3627.cisco.com [10.61.78.43]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w8IBdOJv012365; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:39:24 GMT To: Fred Baker , Corinne Cath Cc: Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:39:29 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="O283iQGqc0bmqGDHRgiuBeVt9HRQyW6KG" X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.78.43, ams3-vpn-dhcp3627.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:39:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --O283iQGqc0bmqGDHRgiuBeVt9HRQyW6KG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="2AAKHd30LhJTQhTSEmxlig3sOpeZePUm4"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Fred Baker , Corinne Cath Cc: Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was:_Re:_[hrpc]_=e2=80=98Ma?= =?UTF-8?Q?ster/Slave=e2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Python=29?= References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> --2AAKHd30LhJTQhTSEmxlig3sOpeZePUm4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F9AA3F8196100F1B92493D4A" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F9AA3F8196100F1B92493D4A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This reminds me of a ridiculous incident that happened some 30 years ago.=C2=A0 One of my friends (Bcc'd) was working for a state educational online computing service.=C2=A0 One of the people using the service got offended by the fact that there was a "man" program, but no "woman" program.=C2=A0 After unsuccessfully attempting to explain that "man" stoo= d for "manual", he was forced to link "woman" to "man".=C2=A0 Naturally, he= had to create a "woman" man (woman) page.=C2=A0 The story goes, the "woman" p= age contained something along the lines of, =E2=80=9CWoman does everything ma= n does, but gets paid 25% less."=C2=A0 I'm confident certain people were *not* am= used. On 14.09.18 19:06, Fred Baker wrote: > There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human rig= hts might affect that. It is simply how the communication system works. A= nd frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to inaccurately describ= e the system for reasons related to political correctness. I entirely agree, and would go further: even spending time on discussing this detracts from discussion of *actual* human rights issues, and serves only to further marginalize this group from governments.=C2=A0 We = keep hearing every day as to how governments want to further gain access to individual online information.=C2=A0 How is this group getting ahead of t= hat conversation? Eliot --------------F9AA3F8196100F1B92493D4A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This reminds me of a ridiculous incident that happened some 30 years ago.=C2=A0 One of my friends (Bcc'd) was working for a state educational online computing service.=C2=A0 One of the people using= the service got offended by the fact that there was a "man" program, but no "woman" program.=C2=A0 After unsuccessfully attempting to explain that "man" stood for "manual", he was forced to link "woman" to "man".=C2=A0 Naturally, he had to create a "woman" man (woman) page.=C2=A0 The story goes, the "woman" page contained something along the lines of, =E2=80=9CWoman does everything man do= es, but gets paid 25% less."=C2=A0 I'm confident certain people were not= amused.

On 14.09.18 19:06, Fred Baker wrote:

There being no human in the loop, its hard to say ex=
actly how human rights might affect that. It is simply how the communicat=
ion system works. And frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to i=
naccurately describe the system for reasons related to political correctn=
ess.

I entirely agree, and would go further: even spending time on discussing this detracts from discussion of actual human rights issues, and serves only to further marginalize this group from governments.=C2=A0 We keep hearing every day as to how governmen= ts want to further gain access to individual online information.=C2=A0 H= ow is this group getting ahead of that conversation?

Eliot

--------------F9AA3F8196100F1B92493D4A-- --2AAKHd30LhJTQhTSEmxlig3sOpeZePUm4-- --O283iQGqc0bmqGDHRgiuBeVt9HRQyW6KG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAlug4/IACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejM7bAf+NuI8zuVqoWGRneTcy3ZfYLztEaTCupw6lW5HH6VXa2VI4+gmsvCEyCKe fNygOZpfAn232M+1mUmZ61WU0IsjyuANwFDJdqi82DkW1+oLV1oCOj6gCwrlqej1 hLmloCsunqS9mZRNlQPN9ay0u6oDDrTF72nSdj3kR9WOtFReql4ne5dNp4QeGjZ5 ejOyn+4AdhYPqapj2Q/kSICYcuofYCqnQfnEJIabtoAY8FmQa0NKFn11/TvhXxIc GXRjWbI9hlgA3cuJXDERaZGvkC8SYyaI7o7UDRLWIS2zAVOBfzfsKcNQGngxEHEy WlSFeqO+m3QJ2StDsizt3avX64WOow== =TNgl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --O283iQGqc0bmqGDHRgiuBeVt9HRQyW6KG-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 05:03:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81137130DEB for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:03:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MvVN5nMtLXXG for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 192C71277D2 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9863B6A324; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:03:19 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1537272199; bh=Eu7fshw10cVrdwiwR+ID7yyHzHRLh4uGl8GfmMI+a44=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=QeJ4QrkVNHioGotBTrzGIOkrxldP/xyvFN7k2uc1sf8SX8sbMrV316P4U/yHvhVU5 Iy7RHSG9LYVeyPg1tVWb6z+jgWFmDqaj6KogZ+I6HfjzvjuRLA5ZWiU69yZrHvmIuI rz+zC1W336lWzScfrxEGTEAxK4br0Y0TkCVP2CT6r2g5rcV3EOIGH0AHDWQ234bJD0 DMOeQR+gZvsKzW6o4MiXZQtmqT3X7uD7FqpcwrgLJ+6dHp6/FkxnQQnDW8FjyasDKx +cQU5OruvdRbdO/r7mbRRJBs0gosHPawBtlCiciAeE0SoATRWOtcyTK9GfCSRJr9jv /uHKHy2/SkXkA== Received: from null (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 773303C1C71; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:03:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:03:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <1399892739.13929.1537272199424@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <2e8ceb32-1bae-8cff-1612-e0ab7ea824df@nielstenoever.net> References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <1562357711.13681.1537269379735@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <2e8ceb32-1bae-8cff-1612-e0ab7ea824df@nielstenoever.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev15 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:03:25 -0000 > Il 18 settembre 2018 alle 13.29 Niels ten Oever ha scritto: > > I don't know how serious this idea is, but as the managing person for a couple of developers, I would be offended if someone alleged that the "boss/worker" relationship is the same as "master/slave", or used the term "worker" as a synonymous replacement for "slave". Actually, modern workplace relationships are in good measure the replacement for ancient slavery-based ones, and one would hope that some progress had been done in the intervening centuries. > > I don't think Amelia suggest that. She just suggested better wording, > which would be less hurtful, and which would still describe the > technical abstraction sufficiently. Less hurtful for whom? To me "master/slave" is not offensive, but "boss/worker" used with that meaning is. Note that I am not advocating that we necessarily keep using "master/slave" or that it is not offensive for others, I am just pointing out that "boss/worker" is offensive for me. > Also, I would be interested to read origin story of whitelists and > blacklist, so any reference would be appreciated. I thought it came from > a conception that white is good and black is bad, which of course is > inherently problematic. But am always happy to learn. Well, anthropologically it's just that: human brains are programmed to think that white (light) is good and black (dark) is bad - fighting this may be good, but there is not much you can do about it, at least in a life's timeframe. So I am absolutely fine if you find alternative language, but at the same time I am wondering where this ends. Is it offensive to have a movie where vampires wear black coats? Or, as widely held in many countries, to assume that a black cat crossing your path brings bad luck? Should we forbid the use of the black colour in conjunction with any negative connotation? But then, why should this instead be ok if the colour is white, yellow or red? So how can you make this work in practice without being unfair to anyone? And isn't this actually strengthening the perception that the colour of someone's skin is relevant, which is what we actually should be fighting? Also, I hope I won't offend anyone, but: are you sure that the use of the terms "master" and "slave" is an important equality issue inside an organization where the broad majority of the participants seems to be white, anglosaxon and male, where the attendees mailing list just a couple of weeks ago hosted a thread on how in "less developed countries" like Thailand you cannot trust the law as you can do in the U.S., and where laughing at people and questioning their professional credentials in public seems to be the ordinary way to express disagreement at meetings? Regards, -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Tue Sep 18 05:07:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7212130DF1 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:07:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PWsxHhh6LSCc for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x229.google.com (mail-qt0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3591F130DFC for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x229.google.com with SMTP id g53-v6so1358594qtg.10 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:07:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=KgOeG1PjWWE2eN6yKWYjezDDvqgAF2yIoR66jeaa+vQ=; b=e8sXkpbDkpff3YVeNol95z/tumesnFV+94IkZ+4EhIbK5yspAYoLrHtMJ8SWw3E+JX n5egKar4ZUJ6lmoJt/GBLRJFhKA87BHWblcjMf9Xx6Qe3v/YJyM+BuahBwkr7mP5Z8Py E60pq+BAEo8kad2J8/yV+Cim/YbrCPjrut/rtzw84e7bimRM2vP8b83Bwuaa804azmLS vloJVwQbafL2xSnpVa2OLdufxzdh8ZoLlomsyYEMdembGzSzifEN9fSfsXxPxe8rQzVx WsIHQOQmCLN6kExlILVlWty55+J1SVD4ugLUks2A1Bnzc48D3x4tDiQLs4ylChTSMDaO kznw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language; bh=KgOeG1PjWWE2eN6yKWYjezDDvqgAF2yIoR66jeaa+vQ=; b=PRyf61aQ0+ncie8/f3U8d7uwjG6xB/KnGnRrmpBCEQDus2U26dTGAF0vlc6jMZjfLb dlrBDQhO/7vZE5Op51YPtwTdOqbx54AJz2CLbmCp0bKcietAYMNoTKA1l0W2Vgy4nw0r kPumveUYauQK0NP6xNqBzfmO7STVtG5eAyR+qiyQPLF+5thMIr+VdH/sOlCyhKm5OFRj 31g/PVSqU3UpueR89UJSPF8A6EKIdZaKNca2fO/Mauz4TxZBdyssoUYLyfIwW2FL0OCN BUUxnc5SPf64W0bi3zyQxWdk0yz7jhfCoVstd2HTr+HI1WgTjgNJvGFvyuW7Zgc5TZ9Y 0d4A== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BMPpdd6hd47ERDEIpNW7oqmS26YPrXqiEofAG0cltBkKwaSdDH bGeaBtP9wd9mdx7bHPWGTtM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdYvNcp5nFZKV5sxYUvHFcjYMRk1vTOJ69DwDOyjMGKtXrtRF0gTJdMXI2bI4Blfn9vfeUG+kA== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:37fb:: with SMTP id e56-v6mr20010159qtc.32.1537272460036; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-196-109.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t17-v6sm12309946qtj.50.2018.09.18.05.07.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 05:07:39 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , Fred Baker , Corinne Cath Cc: Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <874259a2-330c-bf71-0737-53362a0d98cd@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 08:07:38 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0F971E48EF81DC738B9BA4B7" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:07:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0F971E48EF81DC738B9BA4B7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eliot, It would also be great to get support for draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00 as a group draft.=C2=A0 It rather uniquely actually identifies all the hu= man rights provisions and their associated instruments to further the work of the group - to they can be evangelized and used for the analysis of protocols and service offerings.=C2=A0 The -01 version will expand the dr= aft further. Everyone likes to use the term "human rights."=C2=A0 Few are familiar wit= h what they actually are.=C2=A0 It would be a shame to move the draft to another venue because hprc was only interested in discussing master-slave timing and synchronization terminology. --t On 18-Sep-18 7:39 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > I entirely agree, and would go further: even spending time on > discussing this detracts from discussion of *actual* human rights > issues, and serves only to further marginalize this group from > governments.=C2=A0 We keep hearing every day as to how governments want= to > further gain access to individual online information.=C2=A0 How is this= > group getting ahead of that conversation? --------------0F971E48EF81DC738B9BA4B7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Eliot,

It would also be great to get support for draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00 as a group draft.  It rather uniquely actually identifies all the human rights provisions and their associated instruments to further the work of the group - to they can be evangelized and used for the analysis of protocols and service offerings.  The -01 version will expand the draft further.

Everyone likes to use the term "human rights."  Few are familiar with what they actually are.  It would be a shame to move the draft to another venue because hprc was only interested in discussing master-slave timing and synchronization terminology.

--t


On 18-Sep-18 7:39 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
I entirely agree, and would go further: even spending time on discussing this detracts from discussion of actual human rights issues, and serves only to further marginalize this group from governments.  We keep hearing every day as to how governments want to further gain access to individual online information.  How is this group getting ahead of that conversation?

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[73.167.89.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n186-v6sm10116520qkb.32.2018.09.18.06.50.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 06:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F4F89F91-8D86-4AAA-B7C1-AD64C91CBDF9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) From: Ted Lemon X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <1562357711.13681.1537269379735@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 09:50:05 -0400 Cc: Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org Message-Id: References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <1562357711.13681.1537269379735@appsuite.open-xchange.com> To: Vittorio Bertola X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:50:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F4F89F91-8D86-4AAA-B7C1-AD64C91CBDF9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Sep 18, 2018, at 7:16 AM, Vittorio Bertola = wrote: > I don't know how serious this idea is, but as the managing person for = a couple of developers, I would be offended if someone alleged that the = "boss/worker" relationship is the same as "master/slave", or used the = term "worker" as a synonymous replacement for "slave". Actually, modern = workplace relationships are in good measure the replacement for ancient = slavery-based ones, and one would hope that some progress had been done = in the intervening centuries. Perhaps a different way to look at this is that in fact the reason that = it's better to say boss/worker is precisely because it's a better = example of a relationship where one agent is in charge and the other is = taking direction. That said, I'm not in love with "boss/worker" either, probably for the = same reason you are=E2=80=94I think that most of the time these = relationships really aren't much about control. --Apple-Mail=_F4F89F91-8D86-4AAA-B7C1-AD64C91CBDF9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Sep 18, 2018, at 7:16 AM, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> = wrote:
I don't know = how serious this idea is, but as the managing person for a couple of = developers, I would be offended if someone alleged that the = "boss/worker" relationship is the same as "master/slave", or used the = term "worker" as a synonymous replacement for "slave". Actually, modern = workplace relationships are in good measure the replacement for ancient = slavery-based ones, and one would hope that some progress had been done = in the intervening centuries.

Perhaps a different way to look at this is = that in fact the reason that it's better to say boss/worker is precisely = because it's a better example of a relationship where one agent is in = charge and the other is taking direction.

That said, I'm not in love with = "boss/worker" either, probably for the same reason you are=E2=80=94I = think that most of the time these relationships really aren't much about = control.


= --Apple-Mail=_F4F89F91-8D86-4AAA-B7C1-AD64C91CBDF9-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 07:14:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04306130E1B for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:14:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D1CusTMYnwe9 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E26E130E27 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1399892739.13929.1537272199424@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 0ccaee305be983877c9e38c09cbf8ec4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:14:55 -0000 On 09/18/2018 02:03 PM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > Also, I hope I won't offend anyone, but: are you sure that the use of the terms "master" and "slave" is an important equality issue inside an organization where the broad majority of the participants seems to be white, anglosaxon and male, where the attendees mailing list just a couple of weeks ago hosted a thread on how in "less developed countries" like Thailand you cannot trust the law as you can do in the U.S., and where laughing at people and questioning their professional credentials in public seems to be the ordinary way to express disagreement at meetings? During the early years of the IETF and its antecedent, participation was almost entirely composed of a small group of well-funded, American, white, male technicians, demonstrating a distinctive and challenging group dynamic, both in management and in personal interactions. In the case of the IETF, interaction style can often contain singularly aggressive behavior, often including singularly hostile tone and content. Groups with greater diversity make better decisions. Obtaining meaningful diversity requires more than generic good will and statements of principle. Many different behaviors can serve to reduce participant diversity or participation diversity. -RFC7704 I agree with you that these are all important issues, and I think they are interconnect, and I hope we can collaboratively work on them. Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Tue Sep 18 07:25:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84EE130DD2 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:25:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1L1h3Mks-p4Q for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D81D9130DC1 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="38MfQRsMJvHliU1jJ3Hc8ry8PnXUnVSUA" X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: e6bdf1242ae0fe6211617ef395c8efe5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:25:33 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --38MfQRsMJvHliU1jJ3Hc8ry8PnXUnVSUA Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="fj1VeQuzvTM4zCrdGlTSKOEUvwwv55iUv"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: Eliot Lear , Fred Baker , Corinne Cath Cc: Ted Lemon , Hrpc Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was:_Re:_[hrpc]_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=e2=80=98Master/Slave=e2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pytho?= =?UTF-8?Q?n=29?= References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> --fj1VeQuzvTM4zCrdGlTSKOEUvwwv55iUv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 09/18/2018 01:39 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > This reminds me of a ridiculous incident that happened some 30 years > ago.=C2=A0 One of my friends (Bcc'd) was working for a state educationa= l > online computing service.=C2=A0 One of the people using the service got= > offended by the fact that there was a "man" program, but no "woman" > program.=C2=A0 After unsuccessfully attempting to explain that "man" st= ood > for "manual", he was forced to link "woman" to "man".=C2=A0 Naturally, = he had > to create a "woman" man (woman) page.=C2=A0 The story goes, the "woman"= page > contained something along the lines of, =E2=80=9CWoman does everything = man does, > but gets paid 25% less."=C2=A0 I'm confident certain people were *not* = amused. >=20 > On 14.09.18 19:06, Fred Baker wrote: >=20 >> There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human ri= ghts might affect that.=20 The humans that are involved are the developers, network operators, and standard developers and implementors. >> It is simply how the communication system works. As system never 'simply works'. There are many different ways in which tasks can be undertaken, leading to different orderings of systems and societies. Creating opportunities for one, or impossibilities for others. So there is nothing simple about it. If you are simply OK with the ordering it means the ordering is OK for _you_. > And frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to inaccurately desc= ribe the system for reasons related to political correctness. Maybe you can help finding better abstractions and metaphors. > I entirely agree, and would go further: even spending time on discussin= g > this detracts from discussion of *actual* human rights issues,=20 Inclusion, as well as cultural and economic rights are actual human rights issues. > and > serves only to further marginalize this group from governments.=C2=A0 W= e keep > hearing every day as to how governments want to further gain access to > individual online information.=C2=A0 How is this group getting ahead of= that > conversation? >=20 I think it would be a pity if we would limit the discussion here to the right to privacy - also since that discussion is also being discussed (and has been discussed at length) in the IETF. Best, Niels > Eliot >=20 --=20 Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --fj1VeQuzvTM4zCrdGlTSKOEUvwwv55iUv-- --38MfQRsMJvHliU1jJ3Hc8ry8PnXUnVSUA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAluhCtUACgkQDtg/OkaK yLPa1A//SdYv0aALr/43IhADujJd0rIJxJhsJJ9ySyY3lEUt1DykIPnj+nNGwLke lxflVBT2kzGOZaxSc7U1DWKsKoSDgeaVYFr7o5Qvspl/ulfZ6zNze4N+mCDcXiWK b3ZNzyCEWb4rm0+vOkjmpHx7a3+XDsOfkgM+QHDkABxotRL0+Jzj+styuoNmWigQ o9MMpnSajM0802Ss211dYU5hvlbKwUoFeBrsq3rkrI4UsUucYb/pAWbjym89S3IJ vp2VCTZADA9K1tjFO1X3QvT06rDDNamSI+DQ5MZfqTGZLfHP2m390YmF0sGjFHVX aHTA8kOrG54Ru2etriTBATJmYONjyfasiqLLUat0Qnodmnq1bY2hwCgG1jgSXyaO O68rN3HlxixXAGya/gHEv+8GYWvisqOGv/Jrd6f9FTtMvvtLgLPDsFLykUehI8mS zT0gACm3lhIdYb9yrjQsUkHSBk4CWubDzevxK2aJTghMPtsCD1/tjOEpc3YPTrlA rgymr+Y/BYIiAgNhtnywzy1cK8REnVRJNoB3rfhnW0i2xiYHBAZteW764MwzQQBw LlFlRE8uzXf/ei+iunVN0Mg5zR9PPnZ6YsSXu16SyRZ4wq+EzEoCQPSvbpVNyA1Q oVGNLBY69TvyjhLOstLK2fHC4bBbTp43lodQwy4CEkT1zoLzhIo= =1LiP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --38MfQRsMJvHliU1jJ3Hc8ry8PnXUnVSUA-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 07:27:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6914130E3C for ; 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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.10.29.4] ([4.31.72.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a187-v6sm10932068qkd.47.2018.09.18.07.27.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:27:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <9EA77230-C4A9-4A30-8A8C-5137FB3FFA43@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B2D8ADCE-9FF6-4E51-B02B-C8A8EE44CC5F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:27:37 -0400 In-Reply-To: <874259a2-330c-bf71-0737-53362a0d98cd@gmail.com> Cc: Eliot Lear , Corinne Cath , Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever To: Tony Rutkowski References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <874259a2-330c-bf71-0737-53362a0d98cd@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:27:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B2D8ADCE-9FF6-4E51-B02B-C8A8EE44CC5F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 18, 2018, at 8:07 AM, Tony Rutkowski = wrote: > It would also be great to get support for = draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00 as a group draft. It rather uniquely = actually identifies all the human rights provisions and their associated = instruments to further the work of the group - to they can be = evangelized and used for the analysis of protocols and service = offerings. The -01 version will expand the draft further. I can go either way on it being a group draft. In the IETF, we use = Working Group draft status to distinguish work products of a working = group from those of an individual or set of individuals, and to move = content control from the original author(s) to the working group. HRPC = is a research group; RGs don't have the same concept of content control = or group development. As I read the draft, it restates the content of = the UDHR, ICCPR, and CESCR, but doesn't inform the RG in any way that = the original documents didn't already accomplish beyond identifying some = specific conventions on the topic. > Everyone likes to use the term "human rights." Few are familiar with = what they actually are. It would be a shame to move the draft to = another venue because hprc was only interested in discussing = master-slave timing and synchronization terminology. I consider the terminology thread to be off-topic from the RG, as it has = nothing whatsoever to do with human rights in the Internet or their = exercise. --Apple-Mail=_B2D8ADCE-9FF6-4E51-B02B-C8A8EE44CC5F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAluhC1kACgkQEhdRnd2G P+DZTQ/+NVidoojd9UCZLa7nnFE2ODwn4krDaO0+5GzZ5tEKV2l7opgsmbpksYvs 0lMEPNhfb7dh7MYywp2ftWrnQosl64fT3O26M8DxcoJntBjgx1x7OPKvbQukRGTW a0k7DUWbLrNdJCIrZqMvdZNUyXdSLOlkcrfrjb4ATLCZG/CspjSRIa+3XORGlf+B iTDml2e5AFxdhBzWGhFgPn99CtrjOMtfaQJabj3bNgH+Kj+/zyz12dWNsNreoGhM YaCT7S5t9RvbQ2KYkRACzcB6TbgEv81zWSxVa66mezxxgY0Bh8A5tBZMxQ8pFofw TyQmy2grifc9pY1ITRJB46+wrhEfQHCMjOEZ8zhKpozHlkfJFxukOpVcOmrqq+aj cR5acs8h/i8epcpivesDp24E5zga43nvts6+Sfa3mN7AMVDYt0VbV2gnEpbdOVXJ TBFgVPAoBlSwB4wSgFQV4heSt6RK+xGNKMAHKo4CzizGIcOoPaS5vr2t3JT870sX UmGxrBjqmU5vY/UpEykbD/iVm7osG/lIx/HXvaYgt2xzLITt8Uk2gaAOyCUc/und 0kJ4XHBQrjr6B89kfsNkyREKryLOtVlAqrPI9sJlLuHrKJ00FWGHbssurHc4/44E nIVghuhfuREIhCsuyVv9D7G6Re5dIIBWsmPneB+C6mQPVVkg2fQ= =eeMe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B2D8ADCE-9FF6-4E51-B02B-C8A8EE44CC5F-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 07:42:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D582C130E0C for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Rq2mpiXnE8l5CIXr2w9dgPQftutW0Q1wx" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: b76837ecbba1170f708de966edddc2d0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:42:07 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Rq2mpiXnE8l5CIXr2w9dgPQftutW0Q1wx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="s90SMn95H8LzJd87RJIsV8QN3jMmwCK5H"; protected-headers="v1" From: Mallory Knodel To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was:_Re:_[hrpc]_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=e2=80=98Master/Slave=e2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pytho?= =?UTF-8?Q?n=29?= References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> --s90SMn95H8LzJd87RJIsV8QN3jMmwCK5H Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 18/09/18 14:39, Eliot Lear wrote: > On 14.09.18 19:06, Fred Baker wrote: >=20 >> There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human >> rights might affect that. It is simply how the communication system >> works. And frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to >> inaccurately describe the system for reasons related to political >> correctness. >=20 > I entirely agree, and would go further: even spending time on > discussing this detracts from discussion of *actual* human rights > issues, and serves only to further marginalize this group from > governments. We keep hearing every day as to how governments want to > further gain access to individual online information. How is this > group getting ahead of that conversation? I'm increasingly interested in the inertia around this and other terminology. Of course we like to frame things in such a way that puts "the tech just working" at the centre. But then what about the terminology, or a change in equal terminology, gets in the way of that? On the one hand folks say words don't matter. But then on the other hand they seem to be very committed to the words that are already there. And what Neils and others have said is that some words do matter to some people. So shouldn't the people who do feel strongly about the words (as long as it doesn't get in the way of the tech just working) have their wa= y? -Mallory --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --s90SMn95H8LzJd87RJIsV8QN3jMmwCK5H-- --Rq2mpiXnE8l5CIXr2w9dgPQftutW0Q1wx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAluhDq8ACgkQDDKicb08 x4BXlgf8DnW4Uf58Zk0IS9ZyKEt2M9A3r5lsJpoSqGhHfH58uMtbjximR1+wnHLJ E4Rn8edGJK7BL5g5HFSn9ilOHhqU22DQJ3nwtbRdJ5+hBBdIskA67ISRWW1afE1c 0kDHNP6vtw62uIElPVOhrrWRub8qjVq5nvIwT+zxsqlZuahsa/ZTOzdZS+7M2L+B /6xJip12nvyPOOYBL+mpFEeDG4GfWR59NxqcfeYT6+Ql4VwUtwQClMVlfufhal6O 1WnsoN313pQmYpDFqrrxQl/1su9CvJp+a8YalORuYU1bNwkMczIpbYxtT4TI8+X/ VWbZY33mr0k0mgWN5JBAvLZw3x6U6g== =6Bgq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Rq2mpiXnE8l5CIXr2w9dgPQftutW0Q1wx-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 07:46:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA32B130E04 for ; 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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.10.29.4] ([4.31.72.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v10-v6sm13052979qtv.77.2018.09.18.07.46.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:46:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7EE1EBE9-2035-40AF-A039-17CDB9BD3678"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:46:11 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eliot Lear , Corinne Cath , Ted Lemon , Hrpc To: Niels ten Oever References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:46:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7EE1EBE9-2035-40AF-A039-17CDB9BD3678 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Sep 18, 2018, at 10:25 AM, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >> On 14.09.18 19:06, Fred Baker wrote: >>> There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human = rights might affect that. >=20 > The humans that are involved are the developers, network operators, = and > standard developers and implementors. Tony has done us the favor of listing those considerations in one = document that is accessible on the web. Which of those people are = constrained in any of the ways that his draft specifies? Be specific, no = hand-waving. >>> It is simply how the communication system works. >=20 > As system never 'simply works'. There are many different ways in which > tasks can be undertaken, leading to different orderings of systems and > societies. Creating opportunities for one, or impossibilities for > others. So there is nothing simple about it. If you are simply OK with > the ordering it means the ordering is OK for _you_. Eliot's comment on the existence of a "man" (manual) page triggering = someone who misunderstood the term in context is important in this = context. I'm sorry that people who don't choose to read the dictionary = and apply context in their discussion are offended by the correct use of = a term in the context in which it is used. I remain unconvinced that = human rights considerations are relevant in a context in which there are = no humans involved. >> And frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to inaccurately = describe the system for reasons related to political correctness. >=20 > Maybe you can help finding better abstractions and metaphors. My first question is about "better". If it is incorrect, is it better? >> I entirely agree, and would go further: even spending time on = discussing >> this detracts from discussion of *actual* human rights issues, >=20 > Inclusion, as well as cultural and economic rights are actual human > rights issues. If we are talking about human beings, you're correct. In this context, = we aren't talking about human beings. >> and >> serves only to further marginalize this group from governments. We = keep >> hearing every day as to how governments want to further gain access = to >> individual online information. How is this group getting ahead of = that >> conversation? >=20 > I think it would be a pity if we would limit the discussion here to = the > right to privacy - also since that discussion is also being discussed > (and has been discussed at length) in the IETF. The privacy of *human*beings* has been discussed in the IETF. = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. Sun Tzu --Apple-Mail=_7EE1EBE9-2035-40AF-A039-17CDB9BD3678 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAluhD7MACgkQEhdRnd2G P+AKrg/+K0WETAQIpMCjsJsMOb6/5V55ayRSxX+P/xnCgRkMhWMmR2D5aVy10kak VbMFEQj1qmZHccCChdXXE3Gv2aQ2zTF8BTpeGLFKEhuOC3CT4IV1XyNtVt8PG2sI QOnXC6H8VD6BrMu7Rkhbh4fUJWeLmtOUr52LJu4HIsdtecVOLjcWSlvrFKX/dy9L +vJSFYJs33Trapb62JIGF8chOMpnDct9c/GpDriGmJ1qmL+LMa5ZerjrwOTLX3N+ 8+hbCb45YiVRQvbV0bplrIHbD39RiCcGUjTe5eNMYY599GVseDRsEzw2x9hRlT8G o1q8tug5EJczk042+mId6rNLQkeFeXrQ3ZsIWICl7EFfkjIw3RQMsaoS/x+L2uto zrTqMVNsHn04rFFTSnkZGoOj/naqrzJVVkIPJchfa2N4tIKixffp8ULtssoZoxb8 cTpfvsOpuHFynj3+x8qHC5TD2lZ03OmxvOn4/h2QeZnPSXUc0bKGT3Xs9JrCj/xF 4Tr5bQSEX/oI3sYYnVRalJisSreWTfP3bsKjznOyF45qbKJh4yL2a3kv7Jtkc55f 2NOjcay1mHwUpbNJtwZbSrA6ZahiZHR1YVnJywitUlbwYnTd5MmqmfFH8Slg97nS /WU4AVC3UNxhha9+l7vU+1QEahF5M6tsK3SfJOWJTW6SaEbw564= =h2aJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7EE1EBE9-2035-40AF-A039-17CDB9BD3678-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 07:50:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D5B130E42 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:50:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9fjpG34v-bJ4 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C903130E04 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g2HKE-0001PE-4P for hrpc@irtf.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:50:02 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <1562357711.13681.1537269379735@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <2e8ceb32-1bae-8cff-1612-e0ab7ea824df@nielstenoever.net> <1399892739.13929.1537272199424@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAHNJU1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QG1heWZpcnN0Lm9yZz7CwJgEEwECAEICGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo 9WUFCRAV234ACgkQDDKicb08x4DklAf+ODKRmP6C2MnBz6vL8N8l3vZJUqoRcYXTn3uTpT05 Wou87ZIZ/P/OV2/uOMKkczLQQydj5S8PxbLTeg+U5f/63hdy99ON+K2b4izg7Qasdl1SqXTH q1pmhbrcbLbVKDJ345fdEg7RuMnv4gd3EaT/yQa99zHy8JHaBKaPEUQAa65HTt2Sy2c6L6BA aMZx1TOZ9/cZ7L1gJyytJbEyvg/JLOatJEI4rewUWU2TMSGJijwjAUBagwDPWyxpz+vXdKsD tqRTpY4xvXaeUQo0QXf0c5j1Gcglzv7ywZcyz1MGD1aLS9/CqeB3I4EMbvH/33LS3jNkfKbV XOTSjmo7l22CNc7ATQRMdE1nAQgA4mpP2LjFuAW2li9FPbDYOMzt0MtThXsnvHyY0fDv8FlU qnKgPrMY80VHntnxwqepFS3ncunVX4ipq+fadta+LHpTnbJSmlphBrc9qGJxqcjwf4yo35Xh OXCJFwnaoAwIX237lXRe4Xh6X4VMuJt8jiZdvgpbk/whvQH2grcq8KjCcy1iuL5pBl8ZwYG/ dphitFhQdqEcnc/krIqG4KQgKiUi3K/GR0OeEmw/cscWD7/CLEo7eHiaGQhSOyDQbM+Iu2o/ 6uMXMUPsYlMMqgmVL68zMacO3PE17jx0rQ8oZ7CpBY8YZWOWrzXrtFT8JO9guuCPsvd4KT6y 97y9LRJlPQARAQABwsB8BBgBAgAmAhsMFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo9WYF CRAV238ACgkQDDKicb08x4DU4QgAmlyBlFhfU0jpkbyD3HQ+3CJqWdBT422pVIrj3qNT2ehy fWO66Muidmd4Y279uV3p3TQEJOQvnV7FVAC9+bI7AdBy00BAjHgJ5eSQZxKTXUoeeBAsTZHN /HaHewjYWHMvCuuzir/Wt3A6Cehh8gp9I/Vg+oL3dTldVqqgZLgnA83bT/R8fI/e85LDlpdx KJ0+uy/grg3AbH7LUUrmMIC2iO8mQWYuNlizsUZLFvJhCAU2c5l8B5mv2BoWFhL+l7mmNcdF bwBFXon7Ea1jkCnbWVxtXkPYkcuWuMSTJswn9HhZVJWjUonKqUZKAb9PxRzC9crZ+X14tQT3 iJt2a4ZM4w== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:49:54 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1399892739.13929.1537272199424@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: c09395f469c52153b963e4ff2d10f427 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:50:05 -0000 On 18/09/18 15:03, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >=20 >> Il 18 settembre 2018 alle 13.29 Niels ten Oever >> Also, I would be interested to read origin story of whitelists and=20 >> blacklist, so any reference would be appreciated. I thought it came >> from a conception that white is good and black is bad, which of >> course is inherently problematic. But am always happy to learn. >=20 > Well, anthropologically it's just that: human brains are programmed > to think that white (light) is good and black (dark) is bad - > fighting this may be good, but there is not much you can do about it, We do have control over the language that is used in the IETF. Let's not let the world's problems defeat us from solving issues right in front of = us. > at least in a life's timeframe. So I am absolutely fine if you find > alternative language, but at the same time I am wondering where this > ends. Is it offensive to have a movie where vampires wear black > coats? Or, as widely held in many countries, to assume that a black > cat crossing your path brings bad luck? Should we forbid the use of > the black colour in conjunction with any negative connotation? But > then, why should this instead be ok if the colour is white, yellow or > red? Probably we can't control those other things. And that's okay! > So how can you make this work in practice without being unfair > to anyone? And isn't this actually strengthening the perception that > the colour of someone's skin is relevant, which is what we actually > should be fighting? Focussing on language issues does not stop us from doing other things. This could be (is being) done in parallel by folks here and elsewhere. It's important within these huge questions of rights and justice to keep the frame in focus. What we can control and what we can't. The IETF has a role to play here. It may be pretty small in the grand scheme of things, but it's our role and no one else's. To tiny needle nudges, -Mallory --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Tue Sep 18 07:53:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E532130DC1 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:53:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qk7ixiPBPq9R for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AED93130E44 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id n186-v6so737417qke.3 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:53:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=vp/b65gNpxrCxv89MPvy9x5VLvDPty4PGVgYnmQ3qBI=; b=TFjAY//AMD0fFdj8Kr04zlZhftRHLpx0txcE85IgOdmmf8W2mb+kCW1cqep0qEuV/G Y0fo6KKRnFVF0rvCf4R9zCWvq3ktEv6unc/Q2WN8KBxk7WHX3LxE5hs82ydxJyT2KO1a E+GeGSHulBkDybNOyLzBpCDtoTbsjCXpy2hgisT43+jk4HYZ26kdrqigzx34JJTB5UEC eikSwCdbfcIueL5EqwKWHyFm8ZPuomWLqfqkM63Bb86XHjAlYyRSHJN6ez2qR7YHtUW9 cetGX6sKcamNaqSjdr4cv/RMfzzhWMX9+D2j6Z7GnZeFaAz2b31iiub+KeXwmjpdDaGU f2Gg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=vp/b65gNpxrCxv89MPvy9x5VLvDPty4PGVgYnmQ3qBI=; b=Qzb5kEhAUl2/XWzTOG2Gv7wzO7o0qOW2OexNMPdKfgKYP4OZDef91FfhOEn9hYjHea elRRLy8SK1b37OzOIJ66M1IwOQUtS2H216nO+q50nNYjZY21Tq5Dfy3C6n+eBAIMBWKn aG1yjT/QrDWsTxWtjUFmMMDM7ezVHVUOvFHxonD4fazxZvMvglGuQ79wRiXhqtsKBI8P lvABepFTm3tG3b9q6hUBkptnxbFMg2BcFyU6VnTTpzXyggqcQoASRmApRGCitka8/jcX PDfEBYhjfBJLyuhdyAADRV6ldQlpiYeiKgz29oxNsat6cfPCPgdcEK2FtIx5Jvg4w4a8 K/lQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51D70uZWoXw0LD/UaQ7/uvuFq2QcuOzwlpYOdDmb25SSACaPQZfd Z3N0zJ0OUyMxHoeUJ1E7IG3jApy5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZzEq01NmX4aNf5CLR/yuVC2bsnIgW6aqg4rWuFyYhTPPIAJI0rdq9o3Siy/jdoStjZ3DXz7g== X-Received: by 2002:a37:5bc5:: with SMTP id p188-v6mr20955583qkb.318.1537282421430; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-196-109.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p22-v6sm4268431qtk.29.2018.09.18.07.53.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:53:41 -0700 (PDT) To: Fred Baker Cc: Eliot Lear , Corinne Cath , Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <874259a2-330c-bf71-0737-53362a0d98cd@gmail.com> <9EA77230-C4A9-4A30-8A8C-5137FB3FFA43@gmail.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:53:40 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9EA77230-C4A9-4A30-8A8C-5137FB3FFA43@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:53:47 -0000 Thanks, Fred. No problem with the group draft and control.=A0 It seems also like a good= team building endeavor. The draft is considerably more inclusive in identifying all the relevant instruments.=A0 It drills down on which specific rights provisions are relevant, as many of rights are not relevant to network protocols and services.=A0 It tags each right with a consistent identifier that enables= some measure of consistency and comparison in applying it to protocols and services not only in the IETF, but other bodies as well. Best of all, it seems very much within the scope of the group and arguably has broad value. --tony On 18-Sep-18 10:27 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > On Sep 18, 2018, at 8:07 AM, Tony Rutkowski = wrote: >> It would also be great to get support for draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-0= 0 as a group draft. It rather uniquely actually identifies all the human= rights provisions and their associated instruments to further the work o= f the group - to they can be evangelized and used for the analysis of pro= tocols and service offerings. The -01 version will expand the draft furt= her. > I can go either way on it being a group draft. In the IETF, we use Work= ing Group draft status to distinguish work products of a working group fr= om those of an individual or set of individuals, and to move content cont= rol from the original author(s) to the working group. HRPC is a research = group; RGs don't have the same concept of content control or group develo= pment. As I read the draft, it restates the content of the UDHR, ICCPR, a= nd CESCR, but doesn't inform the RG in any way that the original document= s didn't already accomplish beyond identifying some specific conventions = on the topic. > >> Everyone likes to use the term "human rights." Few are familiar with = what they actually are. It would be a shame to move the draft to another= venue because hprc was only interested in discussing master-slave timing= and synchronization terminology. > I consider the terminology thread to be off-topic from the RG, as it ha= s nothing whatsoever to do with human rights in the Internet or their exe= rcise. 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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:08:59 +0200 To: Fred Baker Cc: Eliot Lear , Corinne Cath , Ted Lemon , Hrpc References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:08:58 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eOyCO9g1H63XnTgijRJADq7mIjdPAZEjJ" X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 1dbfdb8436ad4a04b825541b03d3e115 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 15:09:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --eOyCO9g1H63XnTgijRJADq7mIjdPAZEjJ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="4ZSdB7n0xUkB9aB4lghE4ZgmxOFwZccBI"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: Fred Baker Cc: Eliot Lear , Corinne Cath , Ted Lemon , Hrpc Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was:_Re:_[hrpc]_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=e2=80=98Master/Slave=e2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pytho?= =?UTF-8?Q?n=29?= References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> --4ZSdB7n0xUkB9aB4lghE4ZgmxOFwZccBI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 09/18/2018 04:46 PM, Fred Baker wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 18, 2018, at 10:25 AM, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >>> On 14.09.18 19:06, Fred Baker wrote: >>>> There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human = rights might affect that. >> >> The humans that are involved are the developers, network operators, an= d >> standard developers and implementors. >=20 > Tony has done us the favor of listing those considerations in one docum= ent that is accessible on the web. Which of those people are constrained = in any of the ways that his draft specifies? Be specific, no hand-waving.= Non-user facing protocols allow what is possible on the most influential information network that we currently have. The Internet mediates important public societal debates and is also reshaping the relationship between states and their citizens. In this sense Internet protocols, that partly produce this new ordering, impact freedom of expression, the right to political participation, the right to science, and the right to a social and international order. If one uses language that unnecessarily offends and excludes specific societal groups this touches upon the human right of equality the right to be not discriminated against, but also on important human rights principles such as inclusion as well as due process. How this works out in specific cases depends on specific reviews, but that no user sees a protocol does not mean society is not impacted by it, nor that he rights of others are not infringed upon, either directly or indirectly through a reordering of structures of power. >=20 >>>> It is simply how the communication system works. >> >> As system never 'simply works'. There are many different ways in which= >> tasks can be undertaken, leading to different orderings of systems and= >> societies. Creating opportunities for one, or impossibilities for >> others. So there is nothing simple about it. If you are simply OK with= >> the ordering it means the ordering is OK for _you_. >=20 > Eliot's comment on the existence of a "man" (manual) page triggering so= meone who misunderstood the term in context is important in this context.= I'm sorry that people who don't choose to read the dictionary and apply = context in their discussion are offended by the correct use of a term in = the context in which it is used. I remain unconvinced that human rights c= onsiderations are relevant in a context in which there are no humans invo= lved. >=20 So you think developers, implementers, network operators and standards developers are not humans? >>> And frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to inaccurately de= scribe the system for reasons related to political correctness. >> >> Maybe you can help finding better abstractions and metaphors. >=20 > My first question is about "better". If it is incorrect, is it better? > So you think you cannot find another correct abstraction or analogy? I guess the Python community was more creative (or flexible) then. This all does not work for you? [quote] Thus, =93slaves=94 was changed to =93workers=94 or =93helpers=94 and =93m= aster process=94 to =93parent process.=94 [/quote] >>> I entirely agree, and would go further: even spending time on discuss= ing >>> this detracts from discussion of *actual* human rights issues, >> >> Inclusion, as well as cultural and economic rights are actual human >> rights issues. >=20 > If we are talking about human beings, you're correct. In this context, = we aren't talking about human beings. >=20 >>> and >>> serves only to further marginalize this group from governments. We k= eep >>> hearing every day as to how governments want to further gain access t= o >>> individual online information. How is this group getting ahead of th= at >>> conversation? >> >> I think it would be a pity if we would limit the discussion here to th= e >> right to privacy - also since that discussion is also being discussed >> (and has been discussed at length) in the IETF. >=20 > The privacy of *human*beings* has been discussed in the IETF. >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- > Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, > Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. > Sun Tzu >=20 --=20 Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --4ZSdB7n0xUkB9aB4lghE4ZgmxOFwZccBI-- --eOyCO9g1H63XnTgijRJADq7mIjdPAZEjJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAluhFQoACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMitg//Tv4g4PCFeehy6+t5ljv8zmvepJjMHLNBCBjGvnQbYqj1+Qjh6181Zxfi 4lFvsRPcuCxA0j8EOac9jaJ3wGDyaqhJdQT+1/JMpSfkzL3pg7s/5hbzlvxujpCp nYuivx/03Z9OGsiIwmL4i1P/OX4tNjiiyDpfe52UgRVnpyjWNP1J+Jf6UorsGVDl L7J4wwAkFzu2oVYKlF1lPbQDaJRytyn7Hde+fKZ2jCSDjpgdQi3U1wfB7oB4pTl0 uFbzu3cxPa/xSkyonfmPCL32D1CrHIrsf7al9ez5rpj5PPex1NRQxDh3XMz+eCdC rkjrec9i0dAfq/bOQ0b/OUi3W1O05NNsKtd4zW3ipJES+UTOpD4RNwd6n+qybkc2 4hG4xv+jPhqyqnQR5NlPEhs8P42OiJy8nnRUcOstA2Rf6tDzjugcoxJSenCtis1n 1LyHuxQqUWRp9tRwGVhNC0DVbfeWfEaOG+z2tDfHPLjLcffHgynYN8mq2IIQvqbZ 1zxRcw4CRlbIAeTE6eVrXvWzuDzGm4r6C5D/ZLVLR2aKikEXMNdohb7d1J1IWDXp tCPZ4A4RJ1wFK9NXAm3rE0muyKiSjDEwxTAOn/4fdy+Nunp2k/+P71aVV45cfUc3 O8LdBIFLO4s2ZuGpK3CKJCNtYf96zPOUuia/j2TfFD4qhtRo04I= =alHP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --eOyCO9g1H63XnTgijRJADq7mIjdPAZEjJ-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 08:34:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C443130DC2 for ; 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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 08:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.10.29.4] ([4.31.72.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j5-v6sm10785492qtb.34.2018.09.18.08.34.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 08:34:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D96596E1-2298-4D11-B84D-D9B0EB02C4EA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:34:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Corinne Cath , Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Eliot Lear To: Niels ten Oever References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 15:34:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D96596E1-2298-4D11-B84D-D9B0EB02C4EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 18, 2018, at 11:08 AM, Niels ten Oever = wrote: > On 09/18/2018 04:46 PM, Fred Baker wrote: >>=20 >>> On Sep 18, 2018, at 10:25 AM, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >>>> On 14.09.18 19:06, Fred Baker wrote: >>>>> There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how = human rights might affect that. >>>=20 >>> The humans that are involved are the developers, network operators, = and >>> standard developers and implementors. >>=20 >> Tony has done us the favor of listing those considerations in one = document that is accessible on the web. Which of those people are = constrained in any of the ways that his draft specifies? Be specific, no = hand-waving. >=20 > Non-user facing protocols allow what is possible on the most = influential > information network that we currently have. The Internet mediates > important public societal debates and is also reshaping the = relationship > between states and their citizens. In this sense Internet protocols, > that partly produce this new ordering, impact freedom of expression, = the > right to political participation, the right to science, and the right = to > a social and international order. >=20 > If one uses language that unnecessarily offends and excludes specific > societal groups this touches upon the human right of equality the = right > to be not discriminated against, but also on important human rights > principles such as inclusion as well as due process. >=20 > How this works out in specific cases depends on specific reviews, but > that no user sees a protocol does not mean society is not impacted by > it, nor that he rights of others are not infringed upon, either = directly > or indirectly through a reordering of structures of power. So let me throw out another example. The use of the terms "master" and = "slave" are more tenuous in this context, so we don't actually use them = - it's more a case of a gatekeeper, which is one of the terms often = used. But, for sake of argument, consider SIP, which is a protocol used = to set up real time sessions (in the sense that RFC 1633 uses the term). = If one instruments opens a phone call or a video session with another = instrument (yes, there is often a human directing that at one end, but = usually not at the other, and in telemetry there is usually no human at = all), there is often a policy of some sort in control, and the SIP = server has the job of enforcing that. Policy considerations often = include some limited number or bandwidth - if you have ten 4K pixel TVs = in your home, each of which is capable of 18 MBPS unidirectional = traffic, some entity may be imposed to limit the number of such sessions = that may be opened simultaneously in order to not exceed the bandwidth = you have purchased. The = gatekeeper/controller/orchestrator/master/whatever has the authority to = refuse a new session within the context of the policy. So, OK, you purchased 50 MBPS and have ten 4K TVs. The gatekeeper will = permit no more than three simultaneously for bandwidth management = reasons, or will force them to reduce their bandwidth consumption by = using HD (5 MBPS) or SD (2.5 MBPS) encoding. Be specific, no hand-waving. Which developer's, network operator's, = standard developer's, or implementor's (or, for that matter, user's) = human rights are abridged, and which of the rights listed in Tony's = draft is abridged? --Apple-Mail=_D96596E1-2298-4D11-B84D-D9B0EB02C4EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAluhGukACgkQEhdRnd2G P+CsJBAAyoMJRwdtSeBfK53ZSw5SSS3V61/P0jCsjYxoCJRLiLGCQXvlGsegubgv GfhpmZViQsoiBd8l1PBzWPe/N/Z/sQXeZmb2iCWIkftkf1NMM+xcgyLyeyEw2GbI AmfU8JAfwmeDqm080fuHVazC2rl9JE7sOqftXdiG0ZXm8W3PFAPc9ebkBlFlaE/u ZA6gfhwjB/RAVH9PP2KdWuslvEMGkpB5sn57yrEhlEUffQERqZ/bS87KaVzmJN9B WLqbwHpAo3DcncCQWm/uST8to34UZoUg9rL/aPL9LCWgwWinS0n3SYr0RE73B0HE 8SeOZPg9oz16IIdXVETemSewM8BRtI5DTmI4bRFLVJysytjOKnmZJpE3sMBwc5w5 u6vj8l2J2mMqx3M5tzDT3NYyUAw0WdrwqwaacImS1iJwJc5IuYrlkQ/4PMApxqdM YeumRHrxkwkcB22JQLJvOsBiydOmXdBvkOcffKmA0yuYadefXzNUoiB28oPiUCAw qQtP4UOkl1YrCFZA3GSxxoNLFiZq+xi4WX3OxieU8/quZWGO1MNGpqTFPMlQztjf JBx1E7DsGXK2Kk+K6QaxWRaPKLtc8qzzr8Tg4CDPZ2ndjjgw0YWwtzGzjYTAzsO+ oKR2u3IAH8E/hdeGVV/tPuuprrPvEeJBHalSjXtXNLbQXuepsHY= =zXM6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D96596E1-2298-4D11-B84D-D9B0EB02C4EA-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 10:12:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B03D130E22 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:12:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2V6nnHynl6JN for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22c.google.com (mail-qt0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E7B0127B92 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id l42-v6so2375887qtf.13 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:12:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=gmuZztCWfYQ9uHlrlfN1+pr4kyqgS7pBQxdqShGtLeg=; b=WsVUeQTVew1EREzeX7vTFJ36wk87CwFsjUMJX50ndAea7x6jX3KmKXxHmdhic9CNz5 v0EfLWxP/AI7pgYJKO1MuZ042Q8FQJ0X9ZpsZcE95x5f0ljfClCg16zIPA0Xr7J6m2Xk A4vuYy1Bumr0E3nPwAcD6wOCSzFYbrFO9U5ytnuHTEKhRLWFHW8ibjui6I3u2TX1KpLg GCF13mSiw0Qd6qTNj3M+pXxKkOfmTswfs575dosFHtWEky8Vql0ff0BC0VfLoKNJKj+/ 0cSseQ+OSC2LTmVGbJ0pyn5t0ecG/Ki4QuNtHz3SOsiV6ae7FVh9sCoDLI0UwC+9gjGP yirA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=gmuZztCWfYQ9uHlrlfN1+pr4kyqgS7pBQxdqShGtLeg=; b=myLGsAv+pYx8cP/WGNpsX/B7RTIoC4AH2laxIY9z2zeRZ3H/ZR2bgWaZn4W/v6UObk jvAAzpv3ztBtKFTMz9P1qoYuo08rojxCk2ygMcX2uccnoki/r6KKq3R4Y+RoueQ1CrNb fBNIdwqxh3PQ/EG1BG5CWSRhQtY8Cyfflq5+GS91DG4fyUvgfjCxxFVHeIr/GB9XvDYo NiSOYq6O4FVQaXKvW3vyDuCUFlOuqSm77ruzpKkLLgKGtYUNHQv9JuAJZOgXeKOIPfrq tOju/avxVqDQlEC7FUOEur2FsF37pohLcL1S1jcJ/Ji0IYJm/NsxQkm1awUWl/rXELp1 aSvA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51Clz5kS4UZHu5zxPVEA4ixAEMohFL72t8mgcdXy0V/1z5Cm5Izt XBaoZuw0KezUizEqp9dOMk0jGw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZz5EdNJxczC0ngzMTSMUJGaF0inuMGnJpdJ0BtWU7C6kMRNDQER1I+YUD7EJ25wEtpiNgFZw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1af8:: with SMTP id h53-v6mr21568040qtk.258.1537290740417; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-167-89-221.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.89.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g39-v6sm13542581qtb.90.2018.09.18.10.12.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:12:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_49B807E0-CA2D-415D-A302-7C8AF3A1B186" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:12:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> Cc: Niels ten Oever , Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Eliot Lear To: Fred Baker References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:12:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_49B807E0-CA2D-415D-A302-7C8AF3A1B186 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 18, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Fred Baker = wrote: > Be specific, no hand-waving. Which developer's, network operator's, = standard developer's, or implementor's (or, for that matter, user's) = human rights are abridged, and which of the rights listed in Tony's = draft is abridged? Anybody who has to use the term for whom the term is loaded is affected, = including developers, operators, standard developers and implementors. = Anyone who has to listen to someone using the term, in a situation where = if that person were an abuser they might use it abusively, is affected. I don't see a link to Tony's document, but the rights being abridged = here are the right not to be harassed and the right to work in a work = environment that is not hostile to certain people and not to others = depending on their race or ethnic heritage. Bear in mind that a = differentially-hostile work environment is in some ways worse than a = uniformly hostile environment: if everybody is being treated badly, = that's bad, but if only you are being treated badly, then that creates a = whole new dynamic of badness. --Apple-Mail=_49B807E0-CA2D-415D-A302-7C8AF3A1B186 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Sep 18, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Be specific, no hand-waving. Which developer's, network = operator's, standard developer's, or implementor's (or, for that matter, = user's) human rights are abridged, and which of the rights listed in = Tony's draft is abridged?

Anybody who has to use the term for whom the = term is loaded is affected, including developers, operators, standard = developers and implementors.   Anyone who has to listen to someone = using the term, in a situation where if that person were an abuser they = might use it abusively, is affected.

I don't see a link to Tony's document, = but the rights being abridged here are the right not to be harassed and = the right to work in a work environment that is not hostile to certain = people and not to others depending on their race or ethnic heritage. =  Bear in mind that a differentially-hostile work environment is in = some ways worse than a uniformly hostile environment: if everybody is = being treated badly, that's bad, but if only you are being treated = badly, then that creates a whole new dynamic of badness.

= --Apple-Mail=_49B807E0-CA2D-415D-A302-7C8AF3A1B186-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 10:36:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381BE130E8D for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:36:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G5j9xUUeMwSw for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54818130F50 for ; 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18 Sep 2018 17:36:18 +0000 Received: from [10.61.78.43] (ams3-vpn-dhcp3627.cisco.com [10.61.78.43]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w8IHaH6N029235; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:36:18 GMT To: Ted Lemon , Fred Baker Cc: Niels ten Oever , Corinne Cath , Hrpc References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:36:23 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RBAQpMLIPUYyPFVCPlrfy05f66hCWuX7Z" X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.78.43, ams3-vpn-dhcp3627.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:36:32 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --RBAQpMLIPUYyPFVCPlrfy05f66hCWuX7Z Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="loLV3dqc1aEZ6z6CeZKSdTpIlmc4kCjii"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Ted Lemon , Fred Baker Cc: Niels ten Oever , Corinne Cath , Hrpc Message-ID: <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[hrpc]_We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was:_Re:_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=e2=80=98Master/Slave=e2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pytho?= =?UTF-8?Q?n=29?= References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --loLV3dqc1aEZ6z6CeZKSdTpIlmc4kCjii Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------AB50B578CCE0A65D3291BACC" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AB50B578CCE0A65D3291BACC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 18.09.18 19:12, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Sep 18, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Fred Baker > wrote: >> Be specific, no hand-waving. Which developer's, network operator's, >> standard developer's, or implementor's (or, for that matter, user's) >> human rights are abridged, and which of the rights listed in Tony's >> draft is abridged? > > Anybody who has to use the term for whom the term is loaded is > affected, including developers, operators, standard developers and > implementors. =C2=A0 Anyone who has to listen to someone using the term= , in > a situation where if that person were an abuser they might use it > abusively, is affected. I think Fred's point is that we are shadowboxing. Eliot --------------AB50B578CCE0A65D3291BACC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On 18.09.18 19:12, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Sep 18, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Be specific, no hand-waving. Which developer's, network operator's, standard developer's, or implementor's (or, for that matter, user's) human rights are abridged, and which of the rights listed in Tony's draft is abridged?

Anybody who has to use the term for whom the term i= s loaded is affected, including developers, operators, standard developers and implementors. =C2=A0 Anyone who has to listen to someone using the term, in a situation where if that person were an abuser they might use it abusively, is affected.

I think Fred's point is that we are shadowboxing.

Eliot

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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s73-v6sm12598410qkl.65.2018.09.18.10.37.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:37:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Ted Lemon , Fred Baker Cc: Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Eliot Lear , Niels ten Oever References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <12c2cc1f-21b7-6157-18d8-4a93801d96b5@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:37:34 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:37:47 -0000 The case example there illustrates why the draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas ID is valuable.  It forces an identification of explicit human rights provisions that are potentially enforceable rather than just a generic reference an abstraction.  It even potentially allows you to do searches for legislative, regulatory, or case law.  Doing so bolsters your arguments. --t On 18-Sep-18 1:12 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > I don't see a link to Tony's document, but the rights being abridged > here are the right not to be harassed and the right to work in a work > environment that is not hostile to certain people and not to others > depending on their race or ethnic heritage.  Bear in mind that a > differentially-hostile work environment is in some ways worse than a > uniformly hostile environment: if everybody is being treated badly, > that's bad, but if only you are being treated badly, then that creates > a whole new dynamic of badness. From nobody Tue Sep 18 11:13:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAE4130E96 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:13:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UzkmIUvxHHQl for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic307-4.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-4.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBB18130E7E for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:13:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537294417; bh=RIRKuoH/BWTB2OWQEmcUkrpX3izlcDlgfDIyO/l2oVw=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:References:From:Subject; b=bU4FvQFF6q6+8ioS9gbMw0EHxRN8y0alvFFfqKF2Yg7LuXNX6zNoiJwAwJ5lemJiFuw/1jUT2cb35KcH/ZwRFmVFcGHFzcbTe/FXEGXvRTN4dpPRIG6SL9XF0r79P6eFn0B5Fsuba3nYZ1QnnC3s+pV0ZwIKZ9y9Jswo5OZaBlDle3AYfd4dFoEjHVSFAFUSDSlapFX2346G7oq6XWbE4m2mj894tH8I1tp2cUqLjp6pQ80EAZvPd22WmT9uPlQgRdavO+LUuD0G6w0/8OkZ7l2Wa1UAaxDPkt5O7gDc/giHCK0JMy4oH6b3FuwOwboRtwSyBSasGM0Nm+JNQqnbnQ== X-YMail-OSG: MTW.xIMVM1m_KUpC.f6c_wxWJT.k9QgNQiJ6BcQHBr85aOljez1dOHERwkgNxLC uYduvWtgoYa2NjcdNuBasgJaG1XP31YC8lNxGFkGd5iok3Ko6W8ET6I36.u.rvNGVZfAQphS2T2R cRZgYRXAopgJgunWyvfjOdkUDRNj49ezIkCSOE3tpU1OmhkQ8DGBOLg80gQYuDBQNFpLueQBF.Q1 PJCGLmu4bv24ZAnvhgEvS6FD1dqkDLdgjxgd97I0CxsO7fdDc_7_rnguULvGmZVLr4X15DYmv1ey nJFrntQpsz.NAe8KNpdjli8GRoduWJCmf6uGXKqx2e0x0yjF4Q886yH_YIs8SSMdcvbxzT1VrkgM h1KWzzmgrvgeDCGBslTXkrFPuNspf9ab0vk_tgWD4ml5N14WmpndvNvMtTf7UJpD8wgziXP39wMh wDZgIHu1rdScI6faYhCyMFhw2D30JUBvXZ4n7rJp6DaJ938Ctcg85VWa2n.nToCI0FMBbXvJulOW Nkwj5KucUy34yWBuse3EHx.IoeAjFex28WOq9uMN_VZBsW.NucuAOdNdrwDJhHrgxyWazAhzIRlS pQDiN0tcjUSLyC2AJR60brOJq4H6SAT51etBqq_wRxq8hKGcyCjYvWCuacTtLvAPyxLVivUsqy1b GoVW6IDulcmzrO247.Mxm1BoURHM90K2nj_esTJeoiUJQto4qGP6.NgK9i7HDi8vi1i8HA0kH5dv v4hJOPLpspIjSkkZ_Q1QDzDQ5EyPZepTEhuzaHPfBrMjCgNToOcRhUDnAdqp5aSSNIfrNZGXRpj_ uMFIHgG7Dzkz0dQPhSc_TM87MTiZyejE_jCqHYtuveOLy.iOEnmUzjxVlta8nJCihh1kI4tLkBWW HH40Ua4iEjy5Ut4iMQOVkREjLZg9exBrC.7HBU1mmHCaDRHJNBZ5omIWZ3pKJNVa44UBCu8L6f_n h2TCj2Z3frg9SJAsbEwh9iC07d6Q5N2C4hmWhBrS7YUsfiBmtrzIEOmTdvHJVrNkAEKX9VqfdsIt hMpreyA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:13:37 +0000 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:09:35 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Hrpc Message-ID: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12406 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.92 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:13:41 -0000 All, These are some thoughts around content, protocols, the role of government, and human rights. Bear with me, I believe they all relate to each other. In particular, I believe they are intersecting now in both "censorship" and regulation. I will also try not "hand-wave". Specific protocol fields will be mentioned. But, I need to set some background and motivations. 1. We human beings often choose to live in nation-states and have a social contract with a group from within our ranks which we choose to call "government". We choose to abridge some of our rights and pay them some of our hard-earned money (taxes) in return for some benefits we hope to gain. Some of these include: acting against criminal activity, doing things for the common good (parks, schools, roads, fair elections) and so on. Now, governments may be further broken down: a. Government in a nation-state which by-and-large tries to follow the rule of law. (Although one wonders at times.) b. Authoritarian governments c. Rogue nations d. Failed states (There may be other classifications but I think you get the point.) 2. Let us take some content providers on the Internet : Facebook, Twitter, Google (YouTube) etc. These are not ethereal pieces of vaporware with no existence in reality. They are real companies with real checking accounts who pay taxes and are incorporated to do business under the laws of one or more nation-states. 3. More and more, governments (by and large, governments which attempt to follow the rule of law) are becoming quite aware that content on the Internet affects real human beings. And taking action by legislation. 4. Content on the Internet can be classified broadly as : problematic and non-problematic. We are not concerned here with non-problematic content. Problematic content can be further categorized but let's just take one category: -- Criminal activity Let's take some acts which are generally considered criminal by many governments / people over time. These activities also happen as Internet content. Such acts include: * Violent offence against people or inciting such (firearms and offensive weapons may fall here) * Sexual offences or inciting such * Offences against property (Forgery, impersonation and cheating) * Other dangerous acts against people (harmful or dangerous drugs may fall here) * Offences against the State/offences against the Crown and Government/political offences (this is likely to be most seen as the purview of the authoritarian or failed state, but not exclusively so.) 5. There is activity which some may call "censorship" or "blocking" content. For example, the EU wishes to fine FB, Google, etc. for problematic content. You may wish to read the article below: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45495544 "If authorities flag content that incites and advocates extremism, the content must be removed from the web within an hour, the proposal from the EU's lead civil servant states. Net firms that fail to comply would face fines of up to 4% of their annual global turnover." In fact, the social media companies are indeed attempting to act to "block" or censor content. Again, from the article: "In 2017, Google said it would dedicate more than 10,000 staff to rooting out violent extremist content on YouTube YouTube said staff had viewed nearly two million videos for violent extremism from June to December 2017 YouTube said more than 98% of such material was flagged automatically, with more than 50% of the videos removed having fewer than 10 views Industry members have worked together since 2015 to create a database of "digital fingerprints" of previously identified content to better detect extremist material. As of December 2017, it contained more than 40,000 such "hashes" in 2017, Facebook claimed that 99% of all Islamic State and al Qaeda-related content was removed before users had flagged it. The social network said that 83% of the remaining content was identified and removed within an hour between August 2015 and December 2017, Twitter said that it had suspended more than 1.2 million accounts in its fight to stop the spread of extremist propaganda. It said that 93% were flagged by internal tools, with 74% suspended before their first tweet." 6. So, why would these companies act to "block content"? Possibly because they wish to avoid regulation. As I said before, these companies have a real presence under the regulations of real nation-states. The Internet content referred to above can lead to real harm to real people. Government (possibly rightfully) feels that it has an interest in legislation in this area. Why would government wish to "block content" or have censorship? In this case, I would say to protect some people's right to live without being subject to violence. A human right. 7. I had discussed before potentially blocking content for plans for 3-d printed guns. Clearly, there is legislation on this in the United States. It is likely that other nation-states will follow. Or possibly put up nation-state firewalls. Again, to protect the most basic of human rights. 8. Now, at times, the government itself may be the "criminal". Clearly, not all governments or government agencies act in the interests of all their people. Take the case of Myanmar. Apparently, FB had very few people who could read Burmese. So, posts were not reviewed. The posts by the military led to wholesale killing of Rohingya muslims. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/27/facebook-removes-accounts-myanmar-military-un-report-genocide-rohingya FB is now censoring such posts in the interests of preserving the human right to live for the Rohingya people. 9. Let us now discuss the intersection of protocols and content. a. There is a great deal of intersection in the area of criminal activity around financial theft. You may think of phishing, homographic attacks, fraud, data leakage and so on. There is a group which is working on this to propose a potential new research group at the IRTF. I do not wish to steal any of their thunder and will encourage you to sign up for their proposal and email list when they have it. b. Another relatively simple intersection is IP addresses. Here is one where the FBI used IP addresses to prosecute visitors to a child pornography web site. https://gizmodo.com/fbis-disturbing-hacking-powers-challenged-in-court-over-1794885187 Interpol has also complained about CGN because it hides IP addresses. They wish to tie IP addresses to the user. (Now, of course, as we know, an IP address as an identifier is of limited value for many reasons. But, it is certainly an example of the intersection of protocols and content.) https://www.europol.europa.eu/newsroom/news/closing-online-crime-attribution-gap-european-law-enforcement-tackles-carrier-grade-nat-cgn Might one expect legislation in this area in the future? c. The end-to-end principle. Some in the IETF have told me (paraphrasing somewhat) that "Some of us who have been in the IETF for many years find that having smart endpoints and a dumb network is the best architecture. This is the end-to-end principle." Others believe that the end-to-end principle leads to an unsustainable trajectory to ever more complex endpoints and network functions. The intersection of content and protocols here is that if you have the "endpoint" being the only viewer of the unencrypted data (for example), then no middlebox on the network can remove ads (for example). Taking out ads would remove a source of revenue for people who control the endpoints. Now, I am not in the least against companies having a business model and even being extremely successful at implementing the business model. The people at "endpoint" companies are smart, work very hard and are successful. Good for them. I am merely providing another example of the intersection of protocols and content. Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From nobody Tue Sep 18 11:14:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D1A130EA8 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:14:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aqzOfCd9EHwz for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B9C7130E9F for ; 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18 Sep 2018 18:14:25 +0000 Received: from [10.61.78.43] (ams3-vpn-dhcp3627.cisco.com [10.61.78.43]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w8IIENtp004433; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:14:23 GMT To: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: <3aa6173b-bc41-1d3a-6fb6-8d2491c5cecd@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 20:14:23 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.78.43, ams3-vpn-dhcp3627.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:14:29 -0000 On 18.09.18 16:41, Mallory Knodel wrote: > On 18/09/18 14:39, Eliot Lear wrote: >> On 14.09.18 19:06, Fred Baker wrote: >> >>> There being no human in the loop, its hard to say exactly how human >>> rights might affect that. It is simply how the communication system >>> works. And frankly, it's beyond me why someone would want to >>> inaccurately describe the system for reasons related to political >>> correctness. >> I entirely agree, and would go further: even spending time on >> discussing this detracts from discussion of *actual* human rights >> issues, and serves only to further marginalize this group from >> governments. We keep hearing every day as to how governments want to >> further gain access to individual online information. How is this >> group getting ahead of that conversation? > I'm increasingly interested in the inertia around this and other > terminology. Of course we like to frame things in such a way that puts > "the tech just working" at the centre. But then what about the > terminology, or a change in equal terminology, gets in the way of that? The use of language itself is inertia by design, and that inertia means that we have a common understanding of its underlying meaning. > > On the one hand folks say words don't matter. But then on the other hand > they seem to be very committed to the words that are already there. > > And what Neils and others have said is that some words do matter to some > people. So shouldn't the people who do feel strongly about the words (as > long as it doesn't get in the way of the tech just working) have their way? When we needlessly change language for imagined reasons, all we do is increase barriers to communication, having wasted a lot of time in the process of doing so. Even with need, it's a matter of priorities.  Guess where this one sits on my list. From nobody Tue Sep 18 11:29:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C5F7130DD4 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:29:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7QSAG_HhMCZs for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79AB1130EC1 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id i190-v6so1442408pgc.6 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:29:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q4LT/wzjYPlk9Bk7fc0QuG6k0lGyX3EOgRWFl1m7qXU=; b=wPS4pTv/D/sm6Za+pB5KeqB6rqG92b9eG7smZtoGdN3TkSM3c30ixy8AAFsTrxnG74 JD43PtfXwGXicRz+3ZD/84Smqty0H0Me32OBzCz54VI6Bp7LJeUNPVkCiGmTExLO6PL/ Ncpt96L/m5ABN5+4Rqe3uavSl4koJYLEI7q6D9c61nCZHhqIVuDM2knWeMoS1IsO5oLB wWs8nJMPEEevsivObY6FZMC7TCDqTUrOcERNt7DWRDWQF9mdxYd6ND4ObXeQ2/WcUw+p Hr9jDHYUfF+N2ulQRisScv9JVrfJgep2C9O6QeWvgGqLGOeIlPKhjnBK0MQ2i9M8v0SH q48A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q4LT/wzjYPlk9Bk7fc0QuG6k0lGyX3EOgRWFl1m7qXU=; b=NaApoOH96KC9cLQSfGUNRJzrENsd7IRSg0seK1xV5Arazb75obHhY1SNIcJRexLgMl Z01yhH/Bpg+9WxUObSSVFzNt0ZCqhUB7oR8/nQ6PXN9LjMcDc7vRL+MC7nCxfnIF2PgY nLqD1RLIoXKEziihHiw8elo61+eEviwzdUfT0tjH95Mgi3T1khBNV+yIH57sQ0kcFc4n Hbnc2u6PCumrd/rDMbB9r0/sg2C5lKw2s9grWf4G2fBwZk7OmOwEZ0PQPHfJCStzVXQS 9lbCMtXHt7VwL1N0a+drcKlj5UpwIuhahF9og5HVOBNmIaBPdthtfOIT6t5AQ3DuETyY q6SQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51Aehe17C/2M7YYmARPABeThAZEmefvDf2RdBai5FCglbBErosg8 wgyq/p04qJEAU64Un2Wo40cKiYLp9A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdagGjW/7XVcyZt49s/Wrw3lQBo31GamUhzXSgQJI8z+LDXdPhn0Mx552pXbB8aoAWsdzmEeaA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:7b4b:: with SMTP id k11-v6mr29495320pgn.64.1537295352581; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Melindas-MacBook-Pro.local ([63.140.88.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r22-v6sm26746011pfl.112.2018.09.18.11.29.11 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:29:11 -0700 (PDT) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <3aa6173b-bc41-1d3a-6fb6-8d2491c5cecd@cisco.com> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:29:10 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3aa6173b-bc41-1d3a-6fb6-8d2491c5cecd@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:29:20 -0000 On 9/18/18 10:14 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > When we needlessly change language for imagined reasons, all we do is > increase barriers to communication, having wasted a lot of time in > the process of doing so. Even with need, it's a matter of priorities. > Guess where this one sits on my list. I guess our history of difficult discussions in the I*TF suggested that this one was likely to go off the rails, and so it did. Personally, I don't find it particularly onerous to change my language use, although I'll acknowledge that it may be more challenging for non-native speakers. That said, IETF documents are developed through a group process, and if someone's struggling to find a less problematic synonym there's a good chance that there's someone around who can help. I'm also not sure how this is a language "change" issue, at least not in a linguistic sense, but either way I think it might help if folks could avoid the "imagined reasons" characterizations. I'll note that there are tons of existing IETF documents that do not use master/slave, with "controller" and "client" being very widely used. Anyway, the Python community has a long history of being very concerned with inclusivity and they've made a number of efforts over the years to try to avoid alienating people unnecessarily. That's what they've done in this case. I expect it's a failure of empathy on my part to be unable to understand why that's a problem. Melinda -- Software longa, hardware brevis PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F From nobody Tue Sep 18 11:54:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B061200D7 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:54:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mgkf5Oafx5Vc for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x236.google.com (mail-qt0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDCAB130F78 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x236.google.com with SMTP id g44-v6so2715447qtb.12 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:54:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=n4SkRDQNAlHmWpYlzMpFdl3zSemfmozM3iR4JfHh6V8=; b=Rl7w/inboDou/e8zmlk7f3qXjR7hm7grdM0gpDLYXuFRdq+wiloh+hQ4jU7Ii5OE4H qDgT6ZYC3ztYoiyo6Q0nlEB/lqpxAi4Ytxo3Ozw/GHVc2HHrYDT+Z33UAVsNcVy5jahi RFw6+tao8FLeLoiE5rB60Hz+Es7yr1SYjLOIJXLt2U8e6zkDFlVIlxrogreLY1IGHr4E 5inYjPr+yaUUGJRL5GdaJS9XNHUPETamYw3bvMbM/gPfuCTwMP0l1E68CfeXhg/vH/1P p2QR/ONP77/WRLmB4DQFNtZGWhh7IgFZwfRDUtNERnN015VvVe0Zp9sdN/oT2LdAF1uJ F+MQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=n4SkRDQNAlHmWpYlzMpFdl3zSemfmozM3iR4JfHh6V8=; b=BhofE6N9EOTU1dhohnuVEvGVK/mEo4kVGnom9ujBOzHJUTVztl2UUEyLu8LK+UrB88 mIZUM6FjAzW/8/AOJLSy0UEOE8P+cRgcWfwPKgH4YyxyZMMjuADQwq9X5PeZW/48amY9 dCQKfHi9I2HotdP6JvZmAd4USxY+Tfmk8F9AGqkJc2LaSWcnCSnE1b5pyKMKmqo89bJL KlINfmH33qFNHFb1qbrMpjRAi9PST0ZohrOw2NyDzSveR8Wh8f3kYwZrGCzFtOc2Pqg3 v2DjDoyqeh6nnIecizF3aWIQV2+oP5/FkfHaKXudqNrLisuULn+8ZvzYZy4GzeIoLq8B vlTA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51DP6wJdSNDeSMVU1o+2F2w+DKXs68oMkb/xRLRL0n4giYs1mc9T 2LdxuycfbztJHXHzs97dkIu8W1M2ukeOyw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZJ8vgLeqt0Re903UMrqzoGwux9XZowaa7N/ni7y726Jc1praxM2p3PLKI7P87qGF8jDWK3UA== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:23b1:: with SMTP id q46-v6mr21284730qtq.322.1537296871896; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-167-89-221.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.89.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d11-v6sm10630500qkg.14.2018.09.18.11.54.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:54:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AB6D1948-F4CD-4DC1-8280-2D6B8990FB92" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:54:29 -0400 In-Reply-To: <3aa6173b-bc41-1d3a-6fb6-8d2491c5cecd@cisco.com> Cc: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org To: Eliot Lear References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <3aa6173b-bc41-1d3a-6fb6-8d2491c5cecd@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:54:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AB6D1948-F4CD-4DC1-8280-2D6B8990FB92 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 18, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Eliot Lear = wrote: > When we needlessly change language for imagined reasons, all we do is > increase barriers to communication, having wasted a lot of time in the > process of doing so. Even with need, it's a matter of priorities. = Guess > where this one sits on my list. If we were needlessly changing language for imagined reasons, I would = understand why you were concerned about the waste of time. However, we are not: this is a real issue that affects real people. = The city of Los Angeles has a policy that vendors are requested (not = required) to avoid this terminology because an employee complained about = the use of the terms master and slave in an AV setup, and the city = management agreed with the employee that this created a hostile work = environment. I think the sense in which you think it's shadowboxing is that it's not = your problem and not my problem: we are not going to experience the use = of this language as creating a hostile work environment. But we are, I = think, capable of putting ourselves in others' shoes, and I hope that = you can see as clearly as I do that this language can, for some people, = create a hostile work environment. So in what sense is this really shadowboxing? --Apple-Mail=_AB6D1948-F4CD-4DC1-8280-2D6B8990FB92 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Sep 18, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Eliot Lear <lear=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:
When we = needlessly change language for imagined reasons, all we do is
increase = barriers to communication, having wasted a lot of time in the
process of = doing so. Even with need, it's a matter of priorities.  = Guess
where this = one sits on my list.

If we were needlessly changing language for imagined reasons, = I would understand why you were concerned about the waste of = time.

However, = we are not: this is a real issue that affects real people.   The = city of Los Angeles has a policy that vendors are requested (not = required) to avoid this terminology because an employee complained about = the use of the terms master and slave in an AV setup, and the city = management agreed with the employee that this created a hostile work = environment.

I = think the sense in which you think it's shadowboxing is that it's not = your problem and not my problem: we are not going to experience the use = of this language as creating a hostile work environment.   But we = are, I think, capable of putting ourselves in others' shoes, and I hope = that you can see as clearly as I do that this language can, for some = people, create a hostile work environment.

So in what sense is this really = shadowboxing?

= --Apple-Mail=_AB6D1948-F4CD-4DC1-8280-2D6B8990FB92-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 12:28:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D45E130E25 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:28:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0H3K9cgX47zC for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls5.std.com [192.74.137.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3ADDF130DC8 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8IJS0xc020648; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 15:28:02 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8IJRseB013789; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 15:27:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23457.20922.877960.509180@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 15:27:54 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org In-Reply-To: <1562357711.13681.1537269379735@appsuite.open-xchange.com> References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <1562357711.13681.1537269379735@appsuite.open-xchange.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:28:06 -0000 FWIW the Apache web server (most popular web server on the net) refers to compute threads which handle each request (in their mpm configuration) as "worker" processes. Unless a term is inherently offensive in any context, and I don't even think "slave" as in "master/slave" would qualify since we are talking about abstract, inanimate objects, this doesn't seem like a good use of time. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Tue Sep 18 12:42:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76AF6129619 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:42:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id edrT7xJGHrr6 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F4FE120072 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id c13-v6so1501983qkm.4 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:42:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Oa7HUlZq5bmti3bQTfb+Dz1ABvkYNaN3J2e6qY6xhCg=; b=TwJhhUn819EO3O+D+pSv2jN7IyifIQEhgwZnqS59p9XZoA6N/HKh1YVdXoanl2PpbK E2cLfBR4kxbwkw9+ySA4faomNdkkCEeNqvax8/8dHS8miy624ytQ3RT+5HAM6yy86Coo acQxOS3a5Gt4MAdflK6EeyKFnSkos5r5kQOKl4gC/UfsnUuLzq/aQ1J5FbDM2+dxum1T gtMKKvbTXqE+6pYlrzDsrfOpL5Y+fg8OjVEVK4rU7jpGLKOnpPzTh6sJl5BKxGluVKfO zE8Xv6ftAYhY00BdLNNgfX5SUCrgD9JEg7garO+EgA5Z6FLjYxYfPaAVLmiMljmgRtN3 uSGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Oa7HUlZq5bmti3bQTfb+Dz1ABvkYNaN3J2e6qY6xhCg=; b=YphUllObCo9Go8XUwhNSNxFOfJaejNjsv+JWSGxW4snkM76ihBLhwvq3PoszwqX928 wqbx12svLXwFtWG0tU9v86R0lVvlwATokEKm5MwVOg4k4T6vg3Wv5LF65/wgmPU3gIt8 KiX4SvTO4W0IeZvx35JxtjdfslDYfMDUaikNkpCwsHFDsjwTJ2xwqRDbiRfeBTFqd5Cz EbmI19+KBDV+7/j9Om171lmk55VUKmU9XiaWl0AIF4erNp7EzZAlsrJfCPAsV45IhPXa hWJeAD3zhz0n+SowaVQGNq1nWC3vIoI1K+N8wvx4xu040o+8MZhC6luMENqMVN0urMdJ ymlw== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BA/VCD7Rh7N9/gqdQzet1qwy9JlFgUQUOPamB7PTOa62ywygLI IcugfXxI2gS/UbcktlVA2YlzxQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZ4vbunJaR+++fe5DGS10PZcp1bzM34OQOxucu6hMRmGXQ7i9Y3mwBe3tkqEDPmWtlzfGZPtA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:4c0e:: with SMTP id z14-v6mr21589949qka.233.1537299747551; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-167-89-221.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.89.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c2-v6sm10721887qkc.20.2018.09.18.12.42.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:42:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <0BFA8B78-5939-45E6-A5ED-EDD79BEBF535@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0A98B0D1-6B3E-4F8B-81C0-91A1199930E1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 15:42:25 -0400 In-Reply-To: <23457.20922.877960.509180@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Cc: Vittorio Bertola , hrpc@irtf.org, Amelia Andersdotter To: bzs@theworld.com References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <1562357711.13681.1537269379735@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23457.20922.877960.509180@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_?= =?utf-8?q?Removed_from_Python?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:42:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0A98B0D1-6B3E-4F8B-81C0-91A1199930E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 18, 2018, at 3:27 PM, bzs@theworld.com wrote: > Unless a term is inherently offensive in any context, and I don't even > think "slave" as in "master/slave" would qualify since we are talking > about abstract, inanimate objects, this doesn't seem like a good use > of time. The bulk of the time has actually been spent arguing about whether it's = worth spending time on it. You used Apache's terminology as a way to = support this point, I think, but in fact Apache apparently chose not to = use the more loaded term, and that was a smart choice on their part. = "Worker thread" perfectly describes what is going on. How much time = has it saved the Apache team to not have to have this argument over and = over again? Because make no mistake, we will keep having this argument over and over = again until we change our practices, because although this isn't a = problem for us, you and me, Barry, it is very definitely a = problem/irritant for other people, and they are going to keep = complaining about it. And they have every right to do so. So if your = goal is to save time, now would be a good time to stop arguing against = this. --Apple-Mail=_0A98B0D1-6B3E-4F8B-81C0-91A1199930E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Sep 18, 2018, at 3:27 PM, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
Unless a term is inherently offensive in any context, and I = don't even
think "slave" = as in "master/slave" would qualify since we are talking
about = abstract, inanimate objects, this doesn't seem like a good use
of = time.

The = bulk of the time has actually been spent arguing about whether it's = worth spending time on it.   You used Apache's terminology as a way = to support this point, I think, but in fact Apache apparently chose not = to use the more loaded term, and that was a smart choice on their part. =   "Worker thread" perfectly describes what is going on.   How = much time has it saved the Apache team to not have to have this argument = over and over again?

Because make no mistake, we will keep having this argument = over and over again until we change our practices, because although this = isn't a problem for us, you and me, Barry, it is very definitely a = problem/irritant for other people, and they are going to keep = complaining about it.   And they have every right to do so.   = So if your goal is to save time, now would be a good time to stop = arguing against this.

= --Apple-Mail=_0A98B0D1-6B3E-4F8B-81C0-91A1199930E1-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 13:10:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD745127332 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:10:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id STeb3EjwUR0E for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls4.std.com [192.74.137.144]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4DF5120072 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8IK9GK9023014; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:09:22 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8IK9A7q015077; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:09:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23457.23398.856385.961960@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:09:10 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Eliot Lear Cc: Fred Baker , Corinne Cath , Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever In-Reply-To: <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 20:10:11 -0000 Blacklist almost certainly derives from "blackballing" which has verifiable origins in the 18th century including black/white ball voting boxes. Typically it was a secret ballot where one voted their approval or disapproval by dropping either a white or black ball or stone into a box in a secretive way. A variant goes the other way where several white balls and one black ball is placed in a box and drawn blind, whoever draws the black ball gets some undesirable outcome, like short straws etc. So to be blackballed is to lose the vote which often came to mean being banned from some organization or to be chosen for some undesirable outcome. Hence, blacklist, those who have been blackballed, chosen for some negative outcome. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackballing Why black and white? Probably because black and white stones were easy to find and unambiguous. "Man" as in manual derives from the Latin "manus" meaning hand, also "manning the barricades" which refers to hands not gender tho no doubt usage often implies gender in people's minds. As to whether language referring to non-human objects is important or not we might consider the debate over sports team naming where the naming refers to an ethnic group (e.g., if you need an e.g., Washington Redskins) Some have objected to this. Some credible surveys of the ethnic group involved indicated many think it's ok...I could dig up the Annenberg survey done at CMU, albeit I believe in 1991, which resulted in 90% of Native Americans asked thought the name "Washington Redskins" was ok and not derogatory, I wouldn't take that as conclusive though. WHICH RAISES ANOTHER ISSUE...when are we avoiding a term some might find offensive, and when are we scrubbing the language as if to deny history? For example, slaves exist and have existed in all of recorded history, banning the term won't free them or undo the history. I still tend towards if a term is offensive in most any context then it's a problem. If not then probably not. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Tue Sep 18 13:59:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C17130E39 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:59:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CCh8kSm-95UO for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ED64129AB8 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66CEBE39; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 21:59:27 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8AkqcWyAAo6r; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 21:59:26 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C369BE38; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 21:59:26 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1537304366; bh=hAsgQjxLM8NewT3zizOtl5K1pgZ3fgilblqm+eOcmrY=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=1FfkOLFoJjmrzl7cFlDGiipHwtZDBFDXOXnBEIOreRFa9hlZAPCueP/pGiecn1RpQ ZiBEwQABSkMMI530t0OIcS4wSTHd6O2bYITqD1QiZ5icoepFveXeNYLUtuCR0+RfNR bfQ8U33zRGWRIrOJ/qGgU375iV5NxxF2GRzU4fkI= To: Nalini J Elkins , Hrpc References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzTJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxM7BTQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <5beaff15-a9e8-0b35-0985-efe765036a08@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 21:59:25 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="InxsvBdafC9s5rXTzdWD2iJSTI0yNZfrW" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 20:59:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --InxsvBdafC9s5rXTzdWD2iJSTI0yNZfrW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="BYNUeGO6oxUIs26Gz4idTrvUEPlKNbLeF"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Nalini J Elkins , Hrpc Message-ID: <5beaff15-a9e8-0b35-0985-efe765036a08@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> --BYNUeGO6oxUIs26Gz4idTrvUEPlKNbLeF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------06608BE5B9263B21D9676AA6" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------06608BE5B9263B21D9676AA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I agree with a number of the points you make but I think your argument doesn't yet hold together. Two main reasons: On 18/09/18 19:09, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > 4. Content on the Internet can be classified broadly as : > problematic and non-problematic. This is pretty clearly wrong. The same content can be classified as either depending who you ask. The classification can change over time even asking the same person. Even "The content" isn't necessarily that useful - what's "The content" for a web page with a href to a picture of a kitten and another to some JS code that does modular exponentiation? (The latter would be classified problematic by some.) Most web pages are an order of magnitude more complex than my toy example here btw, involving a whole host of parties. Some of the same ambiguities apply to other things on which you base your argument, e.g. 30 years ago the Irish government suffered a lot from corruption that we (those of us not "in the know") didn't know about at the time. I hope and suspect that the situation is better now in that case, but back then it meant that a non-trivial number of cases that appeared to demonstrate following the rule of law, weren't that in reality. Similarly, before Snowden, many of us didn't appreciate the scale of 5eyes activities, yet they were happening. And governments being very large organisations, they also tend to be acting in many ways at once - e.g. at the same time as running BULLRUN, other bits of the US govt were doing fine work to make crypto better. >=20 > We are not concerned here with non-problematic content. Yes we are. Any content can be claimed to be problematic with a bit of inventiveness. Joyce's Ulysses was not actually banned in Ireland but the censorship then in place was sufficient so that nobody imported it for sale for many years. That book would now be considered a major cultural asset by the Irish government. I'm not trying to just poke holes - if we wanna do some such analysis properly we need to consider the subtleties that are really involved. I think the above shows weak points in your analysis so far. I'm not sure how fixable those are tbh, but it could be that those weak points are fixable. However, (and this is the 2nd main point where I disagree with your argument), even without those weak points, and even if I accepted all your earlier points, then I'd still say that there's a mega-gap between all those made earlier and your IMO unjustified leap to the e2e argument. > c. The end-to-end principle. Some in the IETF have told me > (paraphrasing somewhat) that "Some of us who have been in the IETF > for many years find that having smart endpoints and a dumb network is > the best architecture. This is the end-to-end principle." Others > believe that the end-to-end principle leads to an unsustainable > trajectory to ever more complex endpoints and network functions. >=20 > The intersection of content and protocols here is that if you have > the "endpoint" being the only viewer of the unencrypted data (for > example), then no middlebox on the network can remove ads (for > example). Taking out ads would remove a source of revenue for > people who control the endpoints. Seems hypothetical - has there ever been such a MITM attack box that only existed to remove ads? (There may have been some to replace ads, but none to just remove them afaik.) > Now, I am not in the least against companies having a business model > and even being extremely successful at implementing the business > model. The people at "endpoint" companies are smart, work very hard > and are successful. Good for them. >=20 > I am merely providing another example of the intersection of > protocols and content. I'd suggest we'd be far better off not entangling this discussion with attempts (previous, current or future) to weaken crypto. There are many aspects of this that could perhaps usefully be considered that have nothing to do with e2e confidentiality, and as we know, that latter topic is highly controversial. (And after all, we just got done with not breaking TLS in the IETF, we should give the topic at least a summer off:-) My prediction is that if we cannot put that issue aside, this discussion will go nowhere. Cheers, S. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc.=20 > www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 >=20 > _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20 > hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --------------06608BE5B9263B21D9676AA6 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8d9vB_9dROWf for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic312-28.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic312-28.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.191.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D6771294D0 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:22:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537305745; bh=fAb8W+n1gI3TJ3oZBaFnj4S0ilkYy6ARmYvdatTswcU=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_73561_1255400436.1537305732975" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12462 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.92 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 21:22:29 -0000 ------=_Part_73561_1255400436.1537305732975 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen, Shockingly enough, I think we might be able to come to some agreement on a = number of things.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Has H*** frozen over? > The same content can be classified as either depending who you ask.=C2=A0 Yes, absolutely.=C2=A0 I had originally intended to add several more paragr= aphs on how this would happen.=C2=A0 But, I felt I had rambled on long enou= gh.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Actually, it is likely even more complex than that.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Rashomon comes to mind. I suspect though, that there are some types of content that we may be able = to agree on as being problematic.=C2=A0 Throughout history, people seem to = have managed to reach some consensual agreement within each culture on thos= e things. But, I think a more fruitful path might be to think about what is important= for us as a community to know and think about these issues at this particu= lar point in time.=C2=A0=C2=A0 > And after all, we just got done with not breaking TLS in the IETF, we sho= uld give the topic at least a summer off:-) Despite my objection to your characterization of the effort as "breaking", = in the interests of reaching some level of community agreement, I will take= the e2e argument as well as anything about crypto as it is highly unlikely= that you and I will be able to reach any type of understanding on those is= sues. How about this?=C2=A0 Why don't we start with maybe you talking about what = you DO agree with or what you think are the most important points for us as= a community to deal with around this topic? Thoughts? =C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: Stephen Farrell To: Nalini J Elkins ; Hrpc =20 Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2018 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols =20 Hiya, I agree with a number of the points you make but I think your argument doesn't yet hold together. Two main reasons: On 18/09/18 19:09, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > 4.=C2=A0 Content on the Internet can be classified broadly as : > problematic and non-problematic. This is pretty clearly wrong. The same content can be classified as either depending who you ask. The classification can change over time even asking the same person. Even "The content" isn't necessarily that useful - what's "The content" for a web page with a href to a picture of a kitten and another to some JS code that does modular exponentiation? (The latter would be classified problematic by some.) Most web pages are an order of magnitude more complex than my toy example here btw, involving a whole host of parties. Some of the same ambiguities apply to other things on which you base your argument, e.g. 30 years ago the Irish government suffered a lot from corruption that we (those of us not "in the know") didn't know about at the time. I hope and suspect that the situation is better now in that case, but back then it meant that a non-trivial number of cases that appeared to demonstrate following the rule of law, weren't that in reality. Similarly, before Snowden, many of us didn't appreciate the scale of 5eyes activities, yet they were happening. And governments being very large organisations, they also tend to be acting in many ways at once - e.g. at the same time as running BULLRUN, other bits of the US govt were doing fine work to make crypto better. >=20 > We are not concerned here with non-problematic content. Yes we are. Any content can be claimed to be problematic with a bit of inventiveness. Joyce's Ulysses was not actually banned in Ireland but the censorship then in place was sufficient so that nobody imported it for sale for many years. That book would now be considered a major cultural asset by the Irish government. I'm not trying to just poke holes - if we wanna do some such analysis properly we need to consider the subtleties that are really involved. I think the above shows weak points in your analysis so far. I'm not sure how fixable those are tbh, but it could be that those weak points are fixable. However, (and this is the 2nd main point where I disagree with your argument), even without those weak points, and even if I accepted all your earlier points, then I'd still say that there's a mega-gap between all those made earlier and your IMO unjustified leap to the e2e argument. > c.=C2=A0 The end-to-end principle.=C2=A0 Some in the IETF have told me > (paraphrasing somewhat) that "Some of us who have been in the IETF > for many years find that having smart endpoints and a dumb network is > the best architecture.=C2=A0 This is the end-to-end principle."=C2=A0 Oth= ers > believe that the end-to-end principle leads to an unsustainable > trajectory to ever more complex endpoints and network functions. >=20 > The intersection of content and protocols here is that if you have > the "endpoint" being the only viewer of the unencrypted data (for > example), then no middlebox on the network can remove ads (for > example).=C2=A0 Taking out ads would remove a source of revenue for > people who control the endpoints. Seems hypothetical - has there ever been such a MITM attack box that only existed to remove ads? (There may have been some to replace ads, but none to just remove them afaik.) > Now, I am not in the least against companies having a business model > and even being extremely successful at implementing the business > model.=C2=A0 The people at "endpoint" companies are smart, work very hard > and are successful.=C2=A0 Good for them. >=20 > I am merely providing another example of the intersection of > protocols and content. I'd suggest we'd be far better off not entangling this discussion with attempts (previous, current or future) to weaken crypto. There are many aspects of this that could perhaps usefully be considered that have nothing to do with e2e confidentiality, and as we know, that latter topic is highly controversial. (And after all, we just got done with not breaking TLS in the IETF, we should give the topic at least a summer off:-) My prediction is that if we cannot put that issue aside, this discussion will go nowhere. Cheers, S. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc.=20 > www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 >=20 > _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20 > hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_73561_1255400436.1537305732975 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= font face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Segoe UI, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, san= s-serif" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537303780426_14997">Stephen,
Shockingly enough, I th= ink we might be able to come to some agreement on a number of things. =  Has H*** frozen over?

<= /font>
<= font face=3D"Helvetica Neue, Segoe UI, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, san= s-serif" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537303780426_15019">> The same cont= ent can be classified as either depending who you ask. <= /div>

Yes, absolutely.  I ha= d originally intended to add several more paragraphs on how this would happ= en.  But, I felt I had rambled on long enough.   Actually, i= t is likely even more complex than that.   Rashomon comes to mind= .

I suspect th= ough, that there are some types of content that we may be able to agree on = as being problematic.  Throughout history, people seem to have managed= to reach some consensual agreement within each culture on those things.

But, I think a m= ore fruitful path might be to think about what is important for us as a com= munity to know and think about these issues at this particular point in tim= e.  


&g= t; And after all, we just got done with not breaking TLS in the IETF, we sh= ould give the topic at least a summer off:-)

Despite my objection to your characterizatio= n of the effort as "breaking", in the interests of reaching some level of c= ommunity agreement, I will take the e2e argument as well as anything about = crypto as it is highly unlikely that you and I will be able to reach any ty= pe of understanding on those issues.

How about = this?  Why don't we start with maybe you talking about what you DO agr= ee with or what you think are the most important points for us as a communi= ty to deal with around this topic?

Thoughts?<= /span>

 
Thanks,

Nalini= Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.c= om
(831) 659-8360


= From: Stephen Farrell <= stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To:= Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>; Hrpc = <hrpc@irtf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2018 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Conten= t and Protocols


Hiya,

I agree with a number of the points you make but I think your=
argument doesn't yet hold together.
Two main reasons:

On = 18/09/18 19:09, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> 4.  Cont= ent on the Internet can be classified broadly as :
> p= roblematic and non-problematic.

This i= s pretty clearly wrong. The same content can be classified as
either depending who you ask. The classification can change over time<= br clear=3D"none">even asking the same person. Even "The content" isn't nec= essarily
that useful - what's "The content" for a web pag= e with a href to
a picture of a kitten and another to som= e JS code that does modular
exponentiation? (The latter w= ould be classified problematic by some.)
Most web pages a= re an order of magnitude more complex than my toy
example= here btw, involving a whole host of parties.

Some of the same ambiguities apply to other things on which youbase your argument, e.g. 30 years ago the Irish government= suffered
a lot from corruption that we (those of us not = "in the know") didn't
know about at the time. I hope and = suspect that the situation is
better now in that case, bu= t back then it meant that a non-trivial
number of cases t= hat appeared to demonstrate following the rule of
law, we= ren't that in reality. Similarly, before Snowden, many of us
didn't appreciate the scale of 5eyes activities, yet they were
happening. And governments being very large organisations, they a= lso
tend to be acting in many ways at once - e.g. at the = same time as
running BULLRUN, other bits of the US govt w= ere doing fine work
to make crypto better.

>
> We are not concerned he= re with non-problematic content.

Yes w= e are. Any content can be claimed to be problematic with a
bit of inventiveness. Joyce's Ulysses was not actually banned in
Ireland but the censorship then in place was sufficient so thatnobody imported it for sale for many years. That book woul= d now
be considered a major cultural asset by the Irish g= overnment.

I'm not trying to just poke= holes - if we wanna do some such
analysis properly we ne= ed to consider the subtleties that are
really involved.
I think the above shows weak points in = your analysis so far.
I'm not sure how fixable those are = tbh, but it could be that
those weak points are fixable.<= br clear=3D"none">
However, (and this is the 2nd main poi= nt where I disagree with
your argument), even without tho= se weak points, and even if I
accepted all your earlier p= oints, then I'd still say that there's
a mega-gap between= all those made earlier and your IMO unjustified
leap to = the e2e argument.

> c.  The en= d-to-end principle.  Some in the IETF have told me
= > (paraphrasing somewhat) that "Some of us who have been in the IETF
> for many years find that having smart endpoints and a d= umb network is
> the best architecture.  This is = the end-to-end principle."  Others
> believe tha= t the end-to-end principle leads to an unsustainable
>= trajectory to ever more complex endpoints and network functions.
>
> The intersection of content and prot= ocols here is that if you have
> the "endpoint" being = the only viewer of the unencrypted data (for
> example= ), then no middlebox on the network can remove ads (for
&= gt; example).  Taking out ads would remove a source of revenue for> people who control the endpoints.
Seems hypothetical - has there ever been such a MITM attac= k box
that only existed to remove ads? (There may have be= en some to
replace ads, but none to just remove them afai= k.)

> Now, I am not in the least ag= ainst companies having a business model
> and even bei= ng extremely successful at implementing the business
>= model.  The people at "endpoint" companies are smart, work very hard<= br clear=3D"none">> and are successful.  Good for them.
>
> I am merely providing another example o= f the intersection of
> protocols and content.

I'd suggest we'd be far better off not entang= ling this discussion
with attempts (previous, current or = future) to weaken crypto. There
are many aspects of this = that could perhaps usefully be considered
that have nothing to do with e2e confidential= ity, and as we know,
that latter topic is highly controve= rsial. (And after all, we just
got done with not breaking= TLS in the IETF, we should give the
topic at least a sum= mer off:-) My prediction is that if we cannot
put that is= sue aside, this discussion will go nowhere.

Cheers,

S.


>
> Thanks,
>
> Nal= ini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc.
> ww= w.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360
>
> _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list <= br clear=3D"none">> hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irt= f.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>
____________________________________= ___________
hrpc mailing list
hr= pc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman= /listinfo/hrpc


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18 Sep 2018 23:13:22 +0000 Received: from [10.61.163.165] ([10.61.163.165]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w8INDLeG008629; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 23:13:22 GMT To: Ted Lemon Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <3aa6173b-bc41-1d3a-6fb6-8d2491c5cecd@cisco.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: <7f64759c-29e4-b94c-7a13-3699171dd749@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 01:13:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1RrjXmmdmdCO5CvHFDPd8r0Z5uHuMEi3W" X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.163.165, [10.61.163.165] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 23:13:35 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --1RrjXmmdmdCO5CvHFDPd8r0Z5uHuMEi3W Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="gc0Q2TOxHXakfuMITzHe0oUj5djPNHDDD"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Ted Lemon Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <7f64759c-29e4-b94c-7a13-3699171dd749@cisco.com> Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[hrpc]_We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was:_Re:_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=e2=80=98Master/Slave=e2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pytho?= =?UTF-8?Q?n=29?= References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <3aa6173b-bc41-1d3a-6fb6-8d2491c5cecd@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: --gc0Q2TOxHXakfuMITzHe0oUj5djPNHDDD Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FA562A2CAFC2CB39B4FC080B" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FA562A2CAFC2CB39B4FC080B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ted, On 18.09.18 20:54, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Sep 18, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Eliot Lear > > wrote: >> When we needlessly change language for imagined reasons, all we do is >> increase barriers to communication, having wasted a lot of time in the= >> process of doing so. Even with need, it's a matter of priorities.=C2=A0= Guess >> where this one sits on my list. > > If we were needlessly changing language for imagined reasons, I would > understand why you were concerned about the waste of time. Good. > > However, we are not: this is a real issue that affects real people. =C2= =A0 > The city of Los Angeles has a policy that vendors are requested (not > required) to avoid this terminology because an employee complained > about the use of the terms master and slave in an AV setup, and the > city management agreed with the employee that this created a hostile > work environment. As you yourself pointed out, that was because of a single person.=C2=A0 T= he choice for the city was slap stickers on or get sued.=C2=A0 How much brai= n power do you think went into that decision?=C2=A0 If memory serves it was= also withdrawn. > > I think the sense in which you think it's shadowboxing is that it's > not your problem and not my problem: we are not going to experience > the use of this language as creating a hostile work environment. =C2=A0= I would be very grateful if you could explain who is actually offended and why.=C2=A0 Apart from the one guy, who is actually taking offense? > But we are, I think, capable of putting ourselves in others' shoes, > and I hope that you can see as clearly as I do that this language can, > for some people, create a hostile work environment. I agree in principle.=C2=A0 But the instant claim of who this is actually= offending is as of yet unsubstantiated after repeated requests, both here and in the Python PRs, as well as in the Kubernetes PRs (Why I looked, I don't know - jetlag?).=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Absent that substantia= tion we really are shadowboxing. Eliot --------------FA562A2CAFC2CB39B4FC080B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ted,


On 18.09.18 20:54, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Sep 18, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Eliot Lear <lear=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ; wrote:
When we needlessly change language for imagined reasons, all we do is
increase barriers to communication,= having wasted a lot of time in the
process of doing so. Even with need= , it's a matter of priorities.=C2=A0 Guess
where this one sits on my list.

If we were needlessly changing language for imagine= d reasons, I would understand why you were concerned about the waste of time.

Good.

However, we are not: this is a real issue that affects real people. =C2=A0 The city of Los Angeles has a policy = that vendors are requested (not required) to avoid this terminology because an employee complained about the use of the terms master and slave in an AV setup, and the city management agreed with the employee that this created a hostile work environment.

As you yourself pointed out, that was because of a single person.=C2=A0= The choice for the city was slap stickers on or get sued.=C2=A0 How m= uch brain power do you think went into that decision?=C2=A0 If memory ser= ves it was also withdrawn.


I think the sense in which you think it's shadowboxing is that it's not your problem and not my problem: we are not going to experience the use of this language as creating a hostile work environment. =C2=A0

I would be very grateful if you could explain who is actually offended and why.=C2=A0 Apart from the one guy, who is actually takin= g offense?

But we are, I think, capable of putting ourselves i= n others' shoes, and I hope that you can see as clearly as I do that this language can, for some people, create a hostile work environment.

I agree in principle.=C2=A0 But the instant claim of who this is actu= ally offending is as of yet unsubstantiated after repeated requests, both here and in the Python PRs, as well as in the Kubernetes PRs (Why I looked, I don't know - jetlag?).=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Absent that substa= ntiation we really are shadowboxing.

Eliot

--------------FA562A2CAFC2CB39B4FC080B-- --gc0Q2TOxHXakfuMITzHe0oUj5djPNHDDD-- --1RrjXmmdmdCO5CvHFDPd8r0Z5uHuMEi3W Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAluhhpEACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejOWQggAnLoQv9p+E4fETdnl4Jgmx17Zozia8wYSaR4+zmVggiq8ucvDW/POIed6 +TR0jwyWy964N/Qs+0AHYnpb5L3l9t2ze9XbA0trzFHRqocFUfbvlj37Xnrdh19z AMKFDOF+nJb05KZDZvdE126Nl9VoqodPHCp0Zleiy8n6ScvfOHj3VCiDQGQ1HFVO ncvlNTK6hjk/SDlCe3ilHAXa+8/P+lXQ/N9AvNkNZd/eZDA5Od5bCeNdP+gp0a8C 6qhBeLaS6GRhWh1nWZ1moDf8DqunlBXyOmo1IDC1ogafGLEn0EoGNDDNC+8eT//E 2335mZGdltMU5F3pS72qiuFZjLB6Ww== =rkjJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1RrjXmmdmdCO5CvHFDPd8r0Z5uHuMEi3W-- From nobody Tue Sep 18 17:34:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5BAE130EBA for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:34:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w_mqIyFc5oKH for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x232.google.com (mail-it0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E7E2128B14 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x232.google.com with SMTP id p79-v6so5966267itp.3 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:34:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=+N12T5iDleaYx2TOD/ELz3qAFvpLbQQq6DgTNSetdVo=; b=Jhk/yOrYLIV+UZ2QdkorIFnysKk8/APCfy6j8BCjW4vrsbNk7fis8xlrL1T69Icftx Okp2xgYKdPBTiuhLp6OW0vLSG6HBT16CGOvf3UIWkqogzXvhyMcQdLvkQaHd1DyLStiu qwc1HpU1mc1S7je68vQsQ30AjNWSHEJM78aq/eJGraDD/hfQrx6yqUxn46kdHTMPCDQI kFFrXvigNhieIz0Q06eGulXhrwd9RySAXdhKpfWJz9YOC1V1as16DcZUA3oVA4r10BWz Hvx0WHinPTZQ7+iOaNaq4JlQ5ESXsxWX7OS6UP4/GVPWVMzwRQTXsr7ui8BTNHl4xSP4 7KSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=+N12T5iDleaYx2TOD/ELz3qAFvpLbQQq6DgTNSetdVo=; b=BfYfW/YtZscrc9gHpWnUIXD4M5zk5bl4LfzJ7/SgpkYHfR1Bc373SFtAthifGT8kIS jdRl4nQtXqoNFP69abn7PSLtqs6jGj1cQMZ0XyMUlNLlAyPsU4xoa9sNIoWs6jzxt5AS eZ5bQiA5GZUG6jtuOHv2rFq122wUMemsVB8aH1rsOJBQxNOEjMGeHLGOTqRwOpIuzb1z KyrhzrywqHgHszgbFXR5DW3CnwhX+0Wkfyjc2Lsymo7801Ub0J5gmq5bOnYooqX9NWco rHxS2L+7XAWSgoBjDXbrVGcnX/nH+FBE760tsMY2AU9GSTBVtgEoBem1BiivF/HW7wgT NlrA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51ChcfIEZkp3J5qJ1NoFkQD8daI6pOsDmoT7wAvvANfbSX+jIkoO y96/0Yn/iEayO9Aw+BRkBcg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdbGt3xwBzqAMUnQIjQ6KO+Q1rxj7cHppHF1rghWEA2fB6CKuQkJfrkh5F6VGhaIsDzM1ShjMg== X-Received: by 2002:a24:ccc6:: with SMTP id x189-v6mr1275073itf.110.1537317280613; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.30.20.43] ([67.133.97.101]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e76-v6sm6911910iof.31.2018.09.18.17.34.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 17:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Fred Baker X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16A366) In-Reply-To: <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:34:32 -0600 Cc: Ted Lemon , Niels ten Oever , Corinne Cath , Hrpc Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> To: Eliot Lear Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 00:34:43 -0000 >=20 > I think Fred's point is that we are shadowboxing. Hello from Denver, en route home. Yes. The topic of the list is human rights= in protocol design. My point is that this is extremely hypothetical, and no= instance of a specific human being with a specific human right has been sho= wn to be affected. Niels and Ted have mentioned theoretical people that in t= heory could be, but not people who have, and rights that could in theory hav= e been tested, but none which actually have. I=E2=80=99m asking =E2=80=9Cwhe= re=E2=80=99s the beef?=E2=80=9D=20 We=E2=80=99re shadow boxing.= From nobody Tue Sep 18 19:25:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258FD130E00 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:25:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n7BUkDNcmpri for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x229.google.com (mail-qt0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C0D1130DFB for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x229.google.com with SMTP id g53-v6so3722164qtg.10 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:25:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=8v4IGDeTC9RqmNEoG51AV+q3sNqkQqJJx4g5d9TCW0c=; b=GP2TG17LB83W2Bxsc3mzzpAiCeNd0BjImw5PrX0FDBsWrrIXBdXK3I6V/GoyhdKgx1 vsg/uFol7iUPIQxCr9/vQ+LbN/y4oDkJ/KhR5dkIRrxiaKs0rhTKKczZ/eVyHgJLuY9u NSSVmw6ytktrxJcxrnSGaCYtVbZllsLeZbsRFpGtR87l0Sx+ZDxPs3PfiHQ8ASvoh12G bAO3PbOZEGs9i6jHM3zrbNjvyMy8XHtSxqmxBiI5yTYf4ueDFtac9AztIAWYSTNS5pXV yWZ1maridHE4gCWdE+3riFbl32JmjX9Ri5GGC+Li40GJLE3PeAadcHo0RQLuSBAF6r2R Vogw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=8v4IGDeTC9RqmNEoG51AV+q3sNqkQqJJx4g5d9TCW0c=; b=r0tRLc+5/4G5FFVUNZOkJQfh/y8O0gwSd+8ZuKKJ7abhQVv4I/e+v2/r+OS3HuR8Q1 U2/UEB5IyNmwSvk6rnCC2JLIYm4R4Vf0eIDDuzmH/SwAED8SzkQ/xVc4yyzUatJ9lgOw LfWXWFMmQgXH5wyOlwTWOXiiOTJyaPADmGRzRSjA2MXSppiwIof5yvrzEWpEn2fkcCSW XIQwiGMs28cjeXnbExi7NKeeRdwap3qOWF8greSNULj6IekMA73ypw918F2fMfvNCyEY P2JHQezNw/FkOJvFmz13mXopyHw5xBWJ6oYHktoQLMsylkxoODbRVOj2hozRcKvEvUbH BDyA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51DojQw8LoCN7bML7ZMw2NdF3CYcEUOweeJst0iPIg7QwoZ1M54q MwvJ4JSTmGDclODFxsk/hHjjJA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZA9I/p/Oqf2TDhqqAIPzPIwvNs/8bgCbgN9pHLpIGWK2CSCo2Nyf+eW9LlhOgiWxoO3+gjDg== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5056:: with SMTP id h22-v6mr23228043qtm.71.1537323920202; Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-167-89-221.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.89.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n24-v6sm18450044qtf.0.2018.09.18.19.25.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:25:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AD1C3CE2-C00B-4E57-BF49-E471BFB1D35C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 22:25:17 -0400 In-Reply-To: <7f64759c-29e4-b94c-7a13-3699171dd749@cisco.com> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org To: Eliot Lear References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <3aa6173b-bc41-1d3a-6fb6-8d2491c5cecd@cisco.com> <7f64759c-29e4-b94c-7a13-3699171dd749@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 02:25:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AD1C3CE2-C00B-4E57-BF49-E471BFB1D35C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 18, 2018, at 7:13 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > As you yourself pointed out, that was because of a single person. The = choice for the city was slap stickers on or get sued. How much brain = power do you think went into that decision? If memory serves it was = also withdrawn. No, it wasn't. It's just a request, not a requirement. The Python = change was motivated by private complaints. What does that tell you? = It tells me that the people doing the complaining are uncomfortable = doing so publicly; this isn't shocking, given the way people who make = requests like this are treated in the twitterverse and on the news. = The redis change was motivated by a public vote, where a majority of = those who responded said they wanted the change. Now it's possible that those people didn't actually have a personal = concern, but I don't think we can measure that. It's not possible to = use Google for this because there are too many results having to do = with, well, actual slavery. So yeah, if you want to put the burden of proof on the complainers, then = we might be dealing with this for a while before they're comfortable = enough to speak up publicly. Maybe in 20 years, if the current = political situation leads to reform and not dystopia. --Apple-Mail=_AD1C3CE2-C00B-4E57-BF49-E471BFB1D35C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Sep 18, 2018, at 7:13 PM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
As you yourself pointed = out, that was because of a single person.  The choice for the city = was slap stickers on or get sued.  How much brain power do you = think went into that decision?  If memory serves it was also = withdrawn.

No, = it wasn't.   It's just a request, not a requirement.   The = Python change was motivated by private complaints.   What does that = tell you?   It tells me that the people doing the complaining are = uncomfortable doing so publicly; this isn't shocking, given the way = people who make requests like this are treated in the twitterverse and = on the news.   The redis change was motivated by a public vote, = where a majority of those who responded said they wanted the = change.

Now = it's possible that those people didn't actually have a personal concern, = but I don't think we can measure that.   It's not possible to use = Google for this because there are too many results having to do with, = well, actual slavery.

So yeah, if you want to put the burden of proof on the = complainers, then we might be dealing with this for a while before = they're comfortable enough to speak up publicly.   Maybe in 20 = years, if the current political situation leads to reform and not = dystopia.

= --Apple-Mail=_AD1C3CE2-C00B-4E57-BF49-E471BFB1D35C-- From nobody Wed Sep 19 01:12:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839C9130FAC for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 01:12:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.435 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qHyTnE72Piz1 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 01:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time-travellers.org (c.time-travellers.nl.eu.org [IPv6:2a02:2770::21a:4aff:fea3:eeaa]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A925B130FA8 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 01:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2001:470:78c8:2:e8e7:9854:75ed:d6c1] by time-travellers.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1g2Xdl-0006lk-OV for hrpc@irtf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:15:17 +0000 To: hrpc@irtf.org From: Shane Kerr Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:12:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] (Hello World) issue 6: Ethical Computing X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:12:30 -0000 Hello all, It's not protocol-specific, but I thought people on this list might be interested in the latest issue of (Hello World), which is about ethical computing: https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/hello-world-issue-6/ You can download the PDF here: https://helloworld.raspberrypi.org/issues Note that I haven't actually read it yet myself, but the introduction sounds good: "I’m not alone in worrying that the time spent on Boolean logic and binary arithmetic comes at the expense of considering the wider societal and personal impacts of digital technology." Cheers, -- Shane From nobody Wed Sep 19 01:15:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369C5130FB2 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 01:15:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, GB_SUMOF=5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZtjQ0y9ON6qg for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 01:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99D28130FB1 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 01:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9531A6A323; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:15:07 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1537344907; bh=zwyOJhLtvzo9Y/k/BEfxaTG6gACwp8vdf6J7n8LPBOE=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=cPVtalk75sEsZqUbk7Rab+DEx1YAPcIGh6IN/GamNSBHiC0yZPLivvZ3Bg5RJBgx9 Rb4Jci2kxf0Xyhb75Hy9CFVfx1JK5shxFvNfowlGgTieENi+WK9A0/0iSWoAPG/kAU SgoPuJQ3nitngTbQ8DF18nckFig2qvqscbH4XvmteMDiGuw6OCp46flnTOUsKB6KRd udpNDtzYL56qooNf/fegu7k2wIzfVvZGyGsjPRxd2bEW0plTiZVYw+cRa6422rf1zv V5sd7p5GVxg/PshoAblaGgv0D91PJkkoPxO5JJ9OhtfNctntAbJX+01H3JwXPtTqhR jBtLGF6MGjIeg== Received: from null (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7105C3C18F5; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:15:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:15:07 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Stephen Farrell , Nalini J Elkins , Hrpc Message-ID: <1172286953.16958.1537344907399@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <5beaff15-a9e8-0b35-0985-efe765036a08@cs.tcd.ie> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <5beaff15-a9e8-0b35-0985-efe765036a08@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_16957_1729158825.1537344907361" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev15 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:15:11 -0000 ------=_Part_16957_1729158825.1537344907361 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 18 settembre 2018 alle 22.59 Stephen Farrell < stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > ha scritto: > > > On 18/09/18 19:09, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > > > > 4. Content on the Internet can be classified broadly as : > > problematic and non-problematic. > > > > > This is pretty clearly wrong. The same content can be classified as > either depending who you ask. > > > > The intersection of content and protocols here is that if you have > > the "endpoint" being the only viewer of the unencrypted data (for > > example), then no middlebox on the network can remove ads (for > > example). Taking out ads would remove a source of revenue for > > people who control the endpoints. > > > > > Seems hypothetical - has there ever been such a MITM attack box > that only existed to remove ads? (There may have been some to > replace ads, but none to just remove them afaik.) > The sum of these two is IMHO the biggest tension that we have now. The Internet was conceived on the idea that layers could be separated, transport should be neutral, and everyone got to access the same things everywhere. Reality is that content that is ok, or even very desirable, for certain people, is problematic for others; and that there are authorities that have to act as "semi-centralized" checkpoints for content monitoring and control (semi-centralized meaning that it's not a single authority for the entire Internet, but it is a single authority for an entire network or an entire country, so, seen from within that subset of the Internet, it is a centralized single point of control). Though, of course, there also are people (in my perception, disproportionately represented in the IETF) that still think that there should be no point of control whatsoever and the Internet should still follow the ideal model of the last century; and there is an issue with who gets to decide who can act as a content control checkpoint, since you have at least three possible cases: - content control that the user wants (e.g., parental control mechanisms, ad removal, or security filters) - content control that the user does not want, but is mandated and made legitimate by applicable real-world sovereignty features (e.g. governmental site blocking) - content control that the user does not want and is not mandated or even allowed by law, but still is being done by third parties for commercial reasons (e.g. violations of net neutrality, traffic analysis and monetization etc.) So, the technical challenge I see is to preserve the good things about the original model as far as possible, while also supporting architectural features that provide differentiated access to content and multiple layers of "semi-centralized" content control authorities, giving the user some control on who acts as content control authority, but not enough of it to make it possible to bypass sovereignty. Regards, -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_16957_1729158825.1537344907361 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 18 settembre 2018 alle 22.59 Stephen Farrell < stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> ha scritto:
 

On 18/09/18 19:09, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
4. Content on the Internet can be classified broadly as :
problematic and non-problematic.
This is pretty clearly wrong. The same content can be classified as
either depending who you ask.
The intersection of content and protocols here is that if you have
the "endpoint" being the only viewer of the unencrypted data (for
example), then no middlebox on the network can remove ads (for
example). Taking out ads would remove a source of revenue for
people who control the endpoints.
Seems hypothetical - has there ever been such a MITM attack box
that only existed to remove ads? (There may have been some to
replace ads, but none to just remove them afaik.)
The sum of these two is IMHO the biggest tension that we have now. The Internet was conceived on the idea that layers could be separated, transport should be neutral, and everyone got to access the same things everywhere. Reality is that content that is ok, or even very desirable, for certain people, is problematic for others; and that there are authorities that have to act as "semi-centralized" checkpoints for content monitoring and control (semi-centralized meaning that it's not a single authority for the entire Internet, but it is a single authority for an entire network or an entire country, so, seen from within that subset of the Internet, it is a centralized single point of control).

Though, of course, there also are people (in my perception, disproportionately represented in the IETF) that still think that there should be no point of control whatsoever and the Internet should still follow the ideal model of the last century; and there is an issue with who gets to decide who can act as a content control checkpoint, since you have at least three possible cases:
- content control that the user wants (e.g., parental control mechanisms, ad removal, or security filters)
- content control that the user does not want, but is mandated and made legitimate by applicable real-world sovereignty features (e.g. governmental site blocking)
- content control that the user does not want and is not mandated or even allowed by law, but still is being done by third parties for commercial reasons (e.g. violations of net neutrality, traffic analysis and monetization etc.)

So, the technical challenge I see is to preserve the good things about the original model as far as possible, while also supporting architectural features that provide differentiated access to content and multiple layers of "semi-centralized" content control authorities, giving the user some control on who acts as content control authority, but not enough of it to make it possible to bypass sovereignty.

Regards,

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
------=_Part_16957_1729158825.1537344907361-- From nobody Wed Sep 19 03:15:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A872130EE1; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 03:15:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MODb0vzSIVmq; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 03:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAC97130ECF; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 03:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g2ZWR-0003X0-42; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:15:51 +0200 To: Alexandre Petrescu , Hrpc , its@ietf.org References: <32d8c171-2586-e2db-7cc6-26c3385b6946@article19.org> <882e4a44-4842-8d14-50ed-425141f98ba4@gmail.com> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFjWlnsBEAC+jUN+LJE+mmxEL8lHSrvg47xSBMb9GdtH1Jr8tRSxXiO6R5E+FydsfqkL sjO0dI3x/VnNBi/kgPFFWiAzDEwGTiR/C9b/Muo+xrY+it6e49N56LTPGezrY2dy5yo6VcLl 7UwGz3fIWiNIj7dvuoPMBoO1uacF073E+dqDM5CmNh6o+OrHW8zhUlC9hKgXCq+8XpZJw90H un1zsHF0sRDiurjfYaCcbdAGK9+th9378ed1ZvLVo5uBVQXdydl3eJkNCOELq7VOS7oxSliA uX5/nj9A4LjeeYXgNbwGfKrMjlffP0FcAcgfzg9seqDd1DEk9EVaUMTr32fbWOQHjinXSC7r Lw4xaNfoBebIe1M6z16Xg7+bXXCTdmJYcL9ugmkvT6tGnR12Pfoca1oBwXPvA0VIRi86kCSU D9qvZ3Vl07MKD2hsvFkGZJOQfEaYv5QLpCWv6RCjfDNC05IyMeSW4H18Fr/BoHX8FXHV3+9H LsbJQ/Zrofd/Cm+TKEmXLAtYc7iXvzV+mw3/u0VYqjEy/CRYa62Ah0NNNVIuswfRVIfx3UZo jX4y8j2Kh0jtUV5A4GGf8H3SzQ/cB0I7wTRHU9mCPVCtH6M26nPumL4Zr4D6uGnAmPf9xnlX lokOn2Qxf/mBldsL41PDbEpYhZvvn5kJ/Z9Qh7Fks/hfTbbJowARAQABzSxBbWVsaWEgQW5k ZXJzZG90dGVyIDxhbWVsaWFAYW5kZXJzZG90dGVyLmNjPsLBlwQTAQgAQQIbIwUJCWYBgAUL CQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgBYhBD1dtsq4UrmIBVpqb/7xwpS06AtVBQJY1pdiAhkB AAoJEP7xwpS06AtVI0sP/Al6eUycymdT1R7v0uEQv4coonnOUV6FKj/4wc+wM+A0h7vlqADr j4nS7RRSQRUo8xJ9tvR9J1Eyske5bvakOYv64f9PrNY1Z6ABhJzK34kJxekEfeLmpXAB4wst GhD8dGC/z/b9Oau0AW1GWIP0eNWq4acDf9Qf+j0wqQi25OZUXnu5KeUX7mvPTHKZLyEZlwHV atXmZHWKnQWtEPZTQfv/zESsoBAm1TbaLapgxVG9uLW+I9kj72TB/AZ5hMSKMYWZ2dC+8eEs Xd22tn6907aUmZhFT89jbEyS996WeZ+SQ5G1Okrq02qYXcCi5vm3AuvLlbRYHguh42TLaVq1 er7PiYOYH77FFmnZWW6ChFnf7xsDep2tpNxn+QUZLgO3+5kL7TfO7D2H57kjVVMdkNn+01nz kfcn76K7nuU6Dc4pItPzbDndhdxulnm9cicOEfGQqvta9ffxk4YWyAu9PUNARVRNf6OnoDQQ Zo8l1o37q9PFXJyQwzvxdd9u6uzTny2wp9eig75pD3dYHCRIQeYmkv1kB81mc86cwgvuw1Qy /QwiCBNXSSuIvLO78b+/dB0DLVQC/c6gtyWXRpC4ysF4EaEZophjT60d12YRanR+fWuH+qu2 wsT+z1d4tC5/6UJMPr3bxREh9JHThm5Y3cDBmcn0PGqtDKkwjCkqex5bzsFNBFjWlnsBEADF jusaTo9W8VeWluCK/oJqyyyF1wMvou0ldfuoOpUZrOqsY67TM7yBqsv5COPVgAV+xp+axor5 oHWxibd283w0Ok4dK6tvtNGwUqyDRlHtQ92DG/u4Tg5eOwrHNUn73/rfeBD9KhKAXcNKKPoc cLgR8oQTXpO7eRo+0NI52pXQ6LdZ0wddYeTcHglsNKN1TK+CyYS7xfGolsZXXoBOKcyhfj/c kPFVIHWpGpEtcYWTZWvXgLprzHvpKzkzNyBwejaXE+bqCT2dRl3omI/e2t3Vq33hFUUSAdxr FF29vMX/YsSnYqsFOIoayna+TRsDFAfZvbvHBOMckeJzvA8yBdadw7CM08Uw8wqH7n9BA3oq //QpZJekPfrc2E9nM9H0d51T0uStLMbYDWdwxvfPA3p9z8L91vobt8bM/Jbhl9h+X2Yq9oBC iTI7b2izYd9FVG4BwBIdeh3bh9R9HExgRjF3XQ6uafT3pcVOPASdv9FRUYH1Va7QWQifoha0 B7UXKx1OpX1Z6XR2NQ9KN2MvlwvBKdHtm6tBzUIFzW6D8vUOxiYKBA4fppJt/LJF4jsaCEyI /CVQnkC0yL5DKFOdigxTipwEL9Uc6r7VfR5OAGFd6vzuJFy+j+/WhzaVT1oVYp6eQXh0bBtq qH2Mq9sAMnIjvaNYIKiQKgMa1Pa3OWQbQQARAQABwsF8BBgBCAAmFiEEPV22yrhSuYgFWmpv /vHClLToC1UFAljWlnsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQ/vHClLToC1XnRw//W4lzE8FddceKXGRwO/T1 u4uzH9EjPCj+3/eHCrLI+h1m7QPyH1DrFAtZBoA6UoaF0+vIAJXM9/HI1FZ09EUdJr5X/+YR EErFom4DbE1FK8fpK1/Hw2zI+7Xa8bVkmYrKhMGhi1Gq6Dtksn/H4USdJL53ZPt10SVNK7H3 w93Yp1GC4+0zWjfrsKfsHYZZr2SZyb5/gZlngfgaqiQLhIcPYmiU1GQi9QWkGxWRxk0YQXBw hekewvgltATxlRSCwguAi4uck9fAct9GGdpsshSOgAb9YIAnEV3EqaGnf0PknXp3vNHAZWrf M+RyuNdm2L5TjDU0rIrvyqGP3pR33cREGOAil5Sz2uFArmwsPt8VffbEXlf7qZqRBKaYeKt0 qnxKMx1+e1JilVsfb8qtnAWAFDyR0HMlVj/dvGAmq/auPSOAUWRSnDRyT6rv/vXxrbkL4uxW ax46qdpDhR15mS5MTng6b5b3Uox7xlveo/Sx71AdNf4goPvB/ntv0DiMuh+fmLGk3zrxs4Xd 30Sx+qQwVaXR5xc5rgnF81wvfmuAOb2eP9mpD6DoabkpxC8fLk17AK7Q1ZTgcZ+8XLRFnavd PrwCa9RU0BF53lJMSTPzyBcMwZ4sqA6Z5IRFVt7rEbSeeD8REiawo+FvVt9j0fKdNEBeaJ3W Y5hlhNPcUXr4q1U= Organization: ARTICLE19 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:15:44 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <882e4a44-4842-8d14-50ed-425141f98ba4@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US-large X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: c79f821e14dbe0332c6ab890ccc0387d Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [ipwave] RFC8280 Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-25 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:15:57 -0000 Dear Alexander, On 2018-09-14 15:19, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > Dear Amelia, > > Thank you for the Human Rights Review of the IPv6-over-OCB draft > version 25. > > In this email I address 'part 1' of the comments. > Thank you, and I'm sorry for this delayed response. See responses in line= : > I agree with the comment. > > To that end, I created a new "Privacy Considerations" subsection of > the "Security Considerations" section, trying to gather most of the > privacy discussion. > > The privacy considerations are raised in section "Privacy > Considerations". > > The methods to address these privacy considerations (what you > rightfully name 'risk mitigation strategies') are described in > subsection "MAC Address Generation" and in section "SLAAC". > > If necessary, I can explain why both subsections are needed, and > situated at two distinct places. > It looks easier to follow now, to me. Thanks! >> The considerations raised in Appendix F.3 regarding the reliability an= d >> integrity of the transmission schemes seem like they could have a big >> impact on what functionalities must be included in this draft. If the >> IPv6 transmission itself needs to guarantee specified senders and >> receivers, this would require different privacy trade-offs in the rest= >> of the document. > > I think the requirements in F.2 are necessary.=C2=A0 They are necessary= for > future mechanisms of improving the basic works of IPv6-over-OCB.=C2=A0 = Ex.: > this draft describes how IPv6 works basically over OCB.=C2=A0 But futur= e > drafts would describe how a common channel is selected between two > parties, among 6 possible, thanks to this req in F.3 to "converge to a > common channel".=C2=A0 That is why F.2 is there. > > That said, I take into account your remark that what these > requirements require is not present in this draft, and I take into > account an earlier comment that suggests the same; thus I will remove > appendix F.2. > > The same reasoning applyes to appendifx F.3 "Multiple Interfaces" - I > will remove F.3. > > [ll discussion, pseudonym topic and unique identifiability question - > to be addressed] > OK! >> >> =3D=3D# ERRATA: >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> >> Neither the term IP-RSU nor the term IP-OBU defined in Section 2 are >> actually used in the document. > > The term IP-RSU and the term IP-OBU are used in -25, ex. "The link > model is the following: STA --- 802.11-OCB --- STA.=C2=A0 In vehicular > networks, STAs can be IP-RSUs and/or IP-OBUs." > Hm. They come up when I search for them now, but didn't before. Sorry for the confusion. >> In Section 2, definitions, the definition of IP-RSU can be made more >> succinct by removing the second sentence (that is, remove "An IP-RSU h= as >> at least two distinct IP-enabled interfaces; at least one interface is= >> operated in mode OCB of IEEE 802.11 and is IP-enabled."). > > I do not understand why removing that sentence?=C2=A0 HAving two IP-ena= bled > interfaces qualifies it as a router.=C2=A0 It is important we say the > IP-RSU is a router because: many deployed RSUs (not IP-RSU) are > routers yet do not forward IP packets to the OCB interface; so, an > IP-RSU would forward IP packets to the OCB interface if that IP-RSU is > a router.=C2=A0 It is circular, but it is positive, in the right direct= ion: > it allows to correct people who call an RSU a 'router' and suggest > them to call it a 'router' _only_ if it forwards on the OCB interface > too. > An IP-RSU is already defined as being "similar to an Access Network Router" which is defined in RFC3753 as "An IP router in the Access Network." So I thought perhaps that already covered its qualification as router. Also, maybe the "similar to an Access Point as defined in IEEE documents" should go, since OCB networks specifically do not have Access Points. My new suggestion would be: "An IP-RSU is situated along the road. It has at least two distinct IP-enabled interfaces and the wireless PHY/MAC layer of at least one of its IP-enabled interfaces is configured to operate in 802.11-OCB mode. An IP-RSU communicates with the IP-OBU in the vehicle over 802.11 wireless link operating in OCB mode. It is similar to a Wireless Termination Point (WTP), as defined in [RFC5415] or an Access Network Router (ANR) defined in [RFC3753]." It preserves the technical requirements listed first, and puts analogies with other similar terms last. > >> In Appendix C, p. 26, 2nd to last paragraph, it is mentioned that MAC >> re-addressing is described in IEEE-1609.4 Section 6.7. HoIver, in my >> copy of IEEE-1609.4 this feature is described in Section 6.6. > > Ah!=C2=A0 For confirmation - is your 1609.4 document the IEEE 1609.4-20= 16? > (i.e. the document of year 2016). > > But looks as these versions change often.=C2=A0 Maybe I want to remove = the > phrase "a relevant function is described in [1609...] ..." It is this one: 1609.4-2016 - IEEE Standard for Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments (WAVE) -- Multi-Channel Operation, Revision of IEEE Std 1609.4-2010 (Revision of IEEE Std 1609.4-2006) cited as DOI: 10.1109/IEEESTD.2016.7435228. I assumed it was just a typo? best regards, Amelia > > Alex --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Wed Sep 19 04:15:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50982130FFB for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 04:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.099 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_SUMOF=5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7czqaxgzl8LC for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 04:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F34D3130FE6 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 04:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g2aRS-00069V-UZ for hrpc@irtf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:14:47 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <5beaff15-a9e8-0b35-0985-efe765036a08@cs.tcd.ie> <1172286953.16958.1537344907399@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFjWlnsBEAC+jUN+LJE+mmxEL8lHSrvg47xSBMb9GdtH1Jr8tRSxXiO6R5E+FydsfqkL sjO0dI3x/VnNBi/kgPFFWiAzDEwGTiR/C9b/Muo+xrY+it6e49N56LTPGezrY2dy5yo6VcLl 7UwGz3fIWiNIj7dvuoPMBoO1uacF073E+dqDM5CmNh6o+OrHW8zhUlC9hKgXCq+8XpZJw90H un1zsHF0sRDiurjfYaCcbdAGK9+th9378ed1ZvLVo5uBVQXdydl3eJkNCOELq7VOS7oxSliA uX5/nj9A4LjeeYXgNbwGfKrMjlffP0FcAcgfzg9seqDd1DEk9EVaUMTr32fbWOQHjinXSC7r Lw4xaNfoBebIe1M6z16Xg7+bXXCTdmJYcL9ugmkvT6tGnR12Pfoca1oBwXPvA0VIRi86kCSU D9qvZ3Vl07MKD2hsvFkGZJOQfEaYv5QLpCWv6RCjfDNC05IyMeSW4H18Fr/BoHX8FXHV3+9H LsbJQ/Zrofd/Cm+TKEmXLAtYc7iXvzV+mw3/u0VYqjEy/CRYa62Ah0NNNVIuswfRVIfx3UZo jX4y8j2Kh0jtUV5A4GGf8H3SzQ/cB0I7wTRHU9mCPVCtH6M26nPumL4Zr4D6uGnAmPf9xnlX lokOn2Qxf/mBldsL41PDbEpYhZvvn5kJ/Z9Qh7Fks/hfTbbJowARAQABzSxBbWVsaWEgQW5k ZXJzZG90dGVyIDxhbWVsaWFAYW5kZXJzZG90dGVyLmNjPsLBlwQTAQgAQQIbIwUJCWYBgAUL CQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgBYhBD1dtsq4UrmIBVpqb/7xwpS06AtVBQJY1pdiAhkB AAoJEP7xwpS06AtVI0sP/Al6eUycymdT1R7v0uEQv4coonnOUV6FKj/4wc+wM+A0h7vlqADr j4nS7RRSQRUo8xJ9tvR9J1Eyske5bvakOYv64f9PrNY1Z6ABhJzK34kJxekEfeLmpXAB4wst GhD8dGC/z/b9Oau0AW1GWIP0eNWq4acDf9Qf+j0wqQi25OZUXnu5KeUX7mvPTHKZLyEZlwHV atXmZHWKnQWtEPZTQfv/zESsoBAm1TbaLapgxVG9uLW+I9kj72TB/AZ5hMSKMYWZ2dC+8eEs Xd22tn6907aUmZhFT89jbEyS996WeZ+SQ5G1Okrq02qYXcCi5vm3AuvLlbRYHguh42TLaVq1 er7PiYOYH77FFmnZWW6ChFnf7xsDep2tpNxn+QUZLgO3+5kL7TfO7D2H57kjVVMdkNn+01nz kfcn76K7nuU6Dc4pItPzbDndhdxulnm9cicOEfGQqvta9ffxk4YWyAu9PUNARVRNf6OnoDQQ Zo8l1o37q9PFXJyQwzvxdd9u6uzTny2wp9eig75pD3dYHCRIQeYmkv1kB81mc86cwgvuw1Qy /QwiCBNXSSuIvLO78b+/dB0DLVQC/c6gtyWXRpC4ysF4EaEZophjT60d12YRanR+fWuH+qu2 wsT+z1d4tC5/6UJMPr3bxREh9JHThm5Y3cDBmcn0PGqtDKkwjCkqex5bzsFNBFjWlnsBEADF jusaTo9W8VeWluCK/oJqyyyF1wMvou0ldfuoOpUZrOqsY67TM7yBqsv5COPVgAV+xp+axor5 oHWxibd283w0Ok4dK6tvtNGwUqyDRlHtQ92DG/u4Tg5eOwrHNUn73/rfeBD9KhKAXcNKKPoc cLgR8oQTXpO7eRo+0NI52pXQ6LdZ0wddYeTcHglsNKN1TK+CyYS7xfGolsZXXoBOKcyhfj/c kPFVIHWpGpEtcYWTZWvXgLprzHvpKzkzNyBwejaXE+bqCT2dRl3omI/e2t3Vq33hFUUSAdxr FF29vMX/YsSnYqsFOIoayna+TRsDFAfZvbvHBOMckeJzvA8yBdadw7CM08Uw8wqH7n9BA3oq //QpZJekPfrc2E9nM9H0d51T0uStLMbYDWdwxvfPA3p9z8L91vobt8bM/Jbhl9h+X2Yq9oBC iTI7b2izYd9FVG4BwBIdeh3bh9R9HExgRjF3XQ6uafT3pcVOPASdv9FRUYH1Va7QWQifoha0 B7UXKx1OpX1Z6XR2NQ9KN2MvlwvBKdHtm6tBzUIFzW6D8vUOxiYKBA4fppJt/LJF4jsaCEyI /CVQnkC0yL5DKFOdigxTipwEL9Uc6r7VfR5OAGFd6vzuJFy+j+/WhzaVT1oVYp6eQXh0bBtq qH2Mq9sAMnIjvaNYIKiQKgMa1Pa3OWQbQQARAQABwsF8BBgBCAAmFiEEPV22yrhSuYgFWmpv /vHClLToC1UFAljWlnsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQ/vHClLToC1XnRw//W4lzE8FddceKXGRwO/T1 u4uzH9EjPCj+3/eHCrLI+h1m7QPyH1DrFAtZBoA6UoaF0+vIAJXM9/HI1FZ09EUdJr5X/+YR EErFom4DbE1FK8fpK1/Hw2zI+7Xa8bVkmYrKhMGhi1Gq6Dtksn/H4USdJL53ZPt10SVNK7H3 w93Yp1GC4+0zWjfrsKfsHYZZr2SZyb5/gZlngfgaqiQLhIcPYmiU1GQi9QWkGxWRxk0YQXBw hekewvgltATxlRSCwguAi4uck9fAct9GGdpsshSOgAb9YIAnEV3EqaGnf0PknXp3vNHAZWrf M+RyuNdm2L5TjDU0rIrvyqGP3pR33cREGOAil5Sz2uFArmwsPt8VffbEXlf7qZqRBKaYeKt0 qnxKMx1+e1JilVsfb8qtnAWAFDyR0HMlVj/dvGAmq/auPSOAUWRSnDRyT6rv/vXxrbkL4uxW ax46qdpDhR15mS5MTng6b5b3Uox7xlveo/Sx71AdNf4goPvB/ntv0DiMuh+fmLGk3zrxs4Xd 30Sx+qQwVaXR5xc5rgnF81wvfmuAOb2eP9mpD6DoabkpxC8fLk17AK7Q1ZTgcZ+8XLRFnavd PrwCa9RU0BF53lJMSTPzyBcMwZ4sqA6Z5IRFVt7rEbSeeD8REiawo+FvVt9j0fKdNEBeaJ3W Y5hlhNPcUXr4q1U= Organization: ARTICLE19 Message-ID: <4b28d171-0798-f628-d83a-06bca5caab8b@article19.org> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:14:45 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1172286953.16958.1537344907399@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US-large X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 9484ae446d4f83cee8bf28db5146d16c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:15:00 -0000 On 2018-09-19 10:15, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > >> Il 18 settembre 2018 alle 22.59 Stephen Farrell < >> stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > ha >> scritto: >> =C2=A0 >> >> On 18/09/18 19:09, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >>> 4. Content on the Internet can be classified broadly as : >>> problematic and non-problematic. >> This is pretty clearly wrong. The same content can be classified as >> either depending who you ask. >>> The intersection of content and protocols here is that if you have >>> the "endpoint" being the only viewer of the unencrypted data (for >>> example), then no middlebox on the network can remove ads (for >>> example). Taking out ads would remove a source of revenue for >>> people who control the endpoints. >> Seems hypothetical - has there ever been such a MITM attack box >> that only existed to remove ads? (There may have been some to >> replace ads, but none to just remove them afaik.) > The sum of these two is IMHO the biggest tension that we have now. The > Internet was conceived on the idea that layers could be separated, > transport should be neutral, and everyone got to access the same > things everywhere. Reality is that content that is ok, or even very > desirable, for certain people, is problematic for others; and that > there are authorities that have to act as "semi-centralized" > checkpoints for content monitoring and control (semi-centralized > meaning that it's not a single authority for the entire Internet, but > it is a single authority for an entire network or an entire country, > so, seen from within that subset of the Internet, it is a centralized > single point of control). > > Though, of course, there also are people (in my perception, > disproportionately represented in the IETF) that still think that > there should be no point of control whatsoever and the Internet should > still follow the ideal model of the last century; and there is an > issue with who gets to decide who can act as a content control > checkpoint, since you have at least three possible cases: > - content control that the user wants (e.g., parental control > mechanisms, ad removal, or security filters) > - content control that the user does not want, but is mandated and > made legitimate by applicable real-world sovereignty features (e.g. > governmental site blocking) > - content control that the user does not want and is not mandated or > even allowed by law, but still is being done by third parties for > commercial reasons (e.g. violations of net neutrality, traffic > analysis and monetization etc.) > > So, the technical challenge I see is to preserve the good things about > the original model as far as possible, while also supporting > architectural features that provide differentiated access to content > and multiple layers of "semi-centralized" content control authorities, > giving the user some control on who acts as content control authority, > but not enough of it to make it possible to bypass sovereignty. > I thought Andrew made a good point earlier in this regard: are measures requesting control aimed at changing the protocols or the architecture for protocols as deviced within IETF? Or are they in fact measures for control to be applied somewhere else? I revert to my W3C example (EME in HTML5) from when Andrew first brought it up. It looks to me clearly destined for some other form of standardisation than that which occurs at the IETF. best, A > Regards, > > --=20 > > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com =20 > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Wed Sep 19 04:56:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBD3130F04 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 04:56:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ZVOjzZqi702 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 04:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50887130DC0 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 04:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g2b5T-0003DI-VC for hrpc@irtf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:56:08 +0200 From: Mallory Knodel To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAHNJU1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QG1heWZpcnN0Lm9yZz7CwJgEEwECAEICGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo 9WUFCRAV234ACgkQDDKicb08x4DklAf+ODKRmP6C2MnBz6vL8N8l3vZJUqoRcYXTn3uTpT05 Wou87ZIZ/P/OV2/uOMKkczLQQydj5S8PxbLTeg+U5f/63hdy99ON+K2b4izg7Qasdl1SqXTH q1pmhbrcbLbVKDJ345fdEg7RuMnv4gd3EaT/yQa99zHy8JHaBKaPEUQAa65HTt2Sy2c6L6BA aMZx1TOZ9/cZ7L1gJyytJbEyvg/JLOatJEI4rewUWU2TMSGJijwjAUBagwDPWyxpz+vXdKsD tqRTpY4xvXaeUQo0QXf0c5j1Gcglzv7ywZcyz1MGD1aLS9/CqeB3I4EMbvH/33LS3jNkfKbV XOTSjmo7l22CNc7ATQRMdE1nAQgA4mpP2LjFuAW2li9FPbDYOMzt0MtThXsnvHyY0fDv8FlU qnKgPrMY80VHntnxwqepFS3ncunVX4ipq+fadta+LHpTnbJSmlphBrc9qGJxqcjwf4yo35Xh OXCJFwnaoAwIX237lXRe4Xh6X4VMuJt8jiZdvgpbk/whvQH2grcq8KjCcy1iuL5pBl8ZwYG/ dphitFhQdqEcnc/krIqG4KQgKiUi3K/GR0OeEmw/cscWD7/CLEo7eHiaGQhSOyDQbM+Iu2o/ 6uMXMUPsYlMMqgmVL68zMacO3PE17jx0rQ8oZ7CpBY8YZWOWrzXrtFT8JO9guuCPsvd4KT6y 97y9LRJlPQARAQABwsB8BBgBAgAmAhsMFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo9WYF CRAV238ACgkQDDKicb08x4DU4QgAmlyBlFhfU0jpkbyD3HQ+3CJqWdBT422pVIrj3qNT2ehy fWO66Muidmd4Y279uV3p3TQEJOQvnV7FVAC9+bI7AdBy00BAjHgJ5eSQZxKTXUoeeBAsTZHN /HaHewjYWHMvCuuzir/Wt3A6Cehh8gp9I/Vg+oL3dTldVqqgZLgnA83bT/R8fI/e85LDlpdx KJ0+uy/grg3AbH7LUUrmMIC2iO8mQWYuNlizsUZLFvJhCAU2c5l8B5mv2BoWFhL+l7mmNcdF bwBFXon7Ea1jkCnbWVxtXkPYkcuWuMSTJswn9HhZVJWjUonKqUZKAb9PxRzC9crZ+X14tQT3 iJt2a4ZM4w== Message-ID: <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:56:00 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 9b84bad32751a42de3aa9e7877f1ca86 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:56:13 -0000 On 18/09/18 17:46, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Sep 18, 2018, at 10:41 AM, Mallory Knodel > wrote: >> And what Neils and others have said is that some words do matter to so= me >> people. So shouldn't the people who do feel strongly about the words (= as >> long as it doesn't get in the way of the tech just working) have their >> way? >=20 > This is particularly problematic because (I believe, possibly > incorrectly) none of us participating in this problem are people for > whom these words are particularly loaded. =A0 So some of us are arguing > that we probably ought to use different words, because we believe that > there is a problem and that the people for whom the problem exists will > not feel comfortable raising it. =A0 Others are not sure there is a > problem, or don't believe it is important, but again are not people for > whom the problem exists. =A0 So we are doing a bit of a shadow dance > trying to address this problem. >=20 > And yet it seems pretty clearly to me to be a real problem; whether it > is important enough to spent cycles addressing is I suppose a topic for > debate, and one that none of us are truly competent to assess. >=20 > To Eliot's point, one of the challenges we face is that we don't have > much ability to affect how governments behave. =A0 But we do have the > ability to affect how /we/=A0behave. This line of reasoning is flawed: 1. Human rights and justice are not relative, they are absolute. 1.a. Rights are not a question of important enough. 1.b. Oppression doesn't need to affect one directly for one to consider it important. 2. Targetting the process, "we don't have the right people in the room," rather than the content is a distraction. 3. Requiring oppressed people to be the ones to stand up for themselves, and to adequately explain their pain to oppressors, is a constant drain. This problem has been identified. It is real. It is the role of allies in spaces where they have privilege to stand up for absolute justice (see point 1). And I would add encouragement: We are competent enough to s/master/[replacement_for_master] and to speak to the IETF community about why it's important. We're doing it right now. -Mallory --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Wed Sep 19 05:27:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB27130F40; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 05:27:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o8c-0qnFJNk0; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 05:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30B74130DE3; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 05:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w8JCRjn0079325; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:27:45 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id A4FA5204BC8; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:27:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95196201B16; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:27:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w8JCRjUA022841; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:27:45 +0200 To: Amelia Andersdotter , Hrpc , its@ietf.org References: <32d8c171-2586-e2db-7cc6-26c3385b6946@article19.org> <882e4a44-4842-8d14-50ed-425141f98ba4@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:27:45 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [ipwave] RFC8280 Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-25 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:27:52 -0000 Le 19/09/2018 à 12:15, Amelia Andersdotter a écrit : [...] > My new suggestion would be: "An IP-RSU is situated along the road. It > has at least two distinct IP-enabled interfaces and the wireless PHY/MAC > layer of at least one of its IP-enabled interfaces is configured to > operate in 802.11-OCB mode. An IP-RSU communicates with the IP-OBU in > the vehicle over 802.11 wireless link operating in OCB mode. It is > similar to a Wireless Termination Point (WTP), as defined in [RFC5415] > or an Access Network Router (ANR) defined in [RFC3753]." > > It preserves the technical requirements listed first, and puts analogies > with other similar terms last. Sounds good, I modified it accordingly. >>> In Appendix C, p. 26, 2nd to last paragraph, it is mentioned that MAC >>> re-addressing is described in IEEE-1609.4 Section 6.7. HoIver, in my >>> copy of IEEE-1609.4 this feature is described in Section 6.6. >> >> Ah!  For confirmation - is your 1609.4 document the IEEE 1609.4-2016? >> (i.e. the document of year 2016). >> >> But looks as these versions change often.  Maybe I want to remove the >> phrase "a relevant function is described in [1609...] ..." > > It is this one: 1609.4-2016 - IEEE Standard for Wireless Access in > Vehicular Environments (WAVE) -- Multi-Channel Operation, Revision of > IEEE Std 1609.4-2010 (Revision of IEEE Std 1609.4-2006) cited as DOI: > 10.1109/IEEESTD.2016.7435228. > > I assumed it was just a typo? I am not sure it was a typo. There was some discussion about this number of the section in the IEEE document. Some people argued about it, based on what appeared to me to be intermediary working IEEE documents, not fully released to the public. This is moving ground. So I removed that reference. Alex > > best regards, > > Amelia > > >> >> Alex > > From nobody Wed Sep 19 05:32:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7153B130FCD for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 05:32:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f_uwVbh_LsvM for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 05:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBB76130F49 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 05:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEF2D6A316; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:32:25 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1537360345; bh=I5uAAA174yy1jaQkwFm8cv+xL8sNIbu9Th9X68Ok/sY=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=k5VtIKoO4Xhrycj2Ph74sRCAdE32K8wIGFCr9SbPCeejBSzddfenEX/nJQep6APP1 4X6x3OLfMgVxfyKwrrQmI2639ZfHrTF4E7fzu62RLdsuZ8qxyl05GH7wV2oLvU5Ok7 MGNbp3ntvQzH6WHrmJxugW4Wzl8TqFSMq+wX2J2PIAMywmPa/88O2bo0QzGQM4Ajbq Ywau6iM22NX3l7XK6iTE8Nu8w370eZEq9uEbnKgFZWVQLTI9IUw3UDGZNGx/nWDbMW vjx4HLfx+c0VrJHqewwue4jH9noNFZYN/F6ixqjWJFBSbaVgyaGh02wR4Pqr9JIkrW oLzHvETnWm2OA== Received: from null (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8E14C3C1C71; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:32:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:32:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <1907606027.18601.1537360345516@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <4b28d171-0798-f628-d83a-06bca5caab8b@article19.org> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <5beaff15-a9e8-0b35-0985-efe765036a08@cs.tcd.ie> <1172286953.16958.1537344907399@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <4b28d171-0798-f628-d83a-06bca5caab8b@article19.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev15 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:32:29 -0000 > Il 19 settembre 2018 alle 13.14 Amelia Andersdotter ha scritto: > > I thought Andrew made a good point earlier in this regard: are measures > requesting control aimed at changing the protocols or the architecture > for protocols as deviced within IETF? Or are they in fact measures for > control to be applied somewhere else? Well, for example (the one I am familiar with) the already mentioned DNS-over-HTTPS protocol does just that - it is a technical measure designed to make it impossible for governments and ISPs to exert control via DNS-based policies on the content that is made accessible to their citizens/users, and if you have that discussion with the authors, they will proudly say that this is intended. So it is definitely not policy-neutral; the protocol could have encompassed ways for appropriate parties to supply DNS filtering policies, or at least recommendations to find ways to do so, but it does not. Regards, -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Wed Sep 19 05:35:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A279D130FE8; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 05:35:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pT1OQ_No7KmM; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 05:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B31F3131054; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US-large Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: d58e29c6f4e42f76447094ef3ccb23d2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [ipwave] RFC8280 Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-25 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:35:12 -0000 On 2018-09-19 14:27, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >>> Ah!=C2=A0 For confirmation - is your 1609.4 document the IEEE 1609.4-= 2016? >>> (i.e. the document of year 2016). >>> >>> But looks as these versions change often.=C2=A0 Maybe I want to remov= e the >>> phrase "a relevant function is described in [1609...] ..." >> >> It is this one: 1609.4-2016 - IEEE Standard for Wireless Access in >> Vehicular Environments (WAVE) -- Multi-Channel Operation, Revision of >> IEEE Std 1609.4-2010 (Revision of IEEE Std 1609.4-2006) cited as DOI: >> 10.1109/IEEESTD.2016.7435228. >> >> I assumed it was just a typo? > > I am not sure it was a typo. > > There was some discussion about this number of the section in the IEEE > document.=C2=A0 Some people argued about it, based on what appeared to = me > to be intermediary working IEEE documents, not fully released to the > public.=C2=A0 This is moving ground. > > So I removed that reference. > You could have also put Clause 6 without subclause classifier, because it's unlikely to change main clause (I guess)? (although it was added only in 2010, so it's not in the 1609.4-2006 standard, for instance) Otherwise it might be difficult to find for individuals reading the text. Esp. if the entire reference is removed. There is some terminology problem there as well, which I pointed out in the Problem Statement review: the pseudonymization is known alternately as "re-addressing", "pseudonymisation" or "randomization". But well, every document can't solve every issue, that's how it is. best regards, Amelia > Alex > > >> >> best regards, >> >> Amelia >> >> >>> >>> Alex >> >> --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Wed Sep 19 06:20:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8861A130FDF; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 06:20:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9KFoU5OR4OSD; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 06:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72E0D130DBE; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 06:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w8JDKRao101750; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:20:27 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6027A2036F6; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:20:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FDB4201D0D; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:20:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w8JDKRlW025511; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:20:27 +0200 To: Amelia Andersdotter , Hrpc , its@ietf.org References: <32d8c171-2586-e2db-7cc6-26c3385b6946@article19.org> <882e4a44-4842-8d14-50ed-425141f98ba4@gmail.com> <44af53c5-2f3e-5c5d-ede0-07bfd677374f@article19.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <01335001-e49b-4fe2-8ba6-6d489bb13dc5@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:20:26 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <44af53c5-2f3e-5c5d-ede0-07bfd677374f@article19.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [ipwave] RFC8280 Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-25 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:20:32 -0000 Le 19/09/2018 à 14:34, Amelia Andersdotter a écrit : > On 2018-09-19 14:27, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >>>> Ah! For confirmation - is your 1609.4 document the IEEE >>>> 1609.4-2016? (i.e. the document of year 2016). >>>> >>>> But looks as these versions change often. Maybe I want to >>>> remove the phrase "a relevant function is described in >>>> [1609...] ..." >>> >>> It is this one: 1609.4-2016 - IEEE Standard for Wireless Access >>> in Vehicular Environments (WAVE) -- Multi-Channel Operation, >>> Revision of IEEE Std 1609.4-2010 (Revision of IEEE Std >>> 1609.4-2006) cited as DOI: 10.1109/IEEESTD.2016.7435228. >>> >>> I assumed it was just a typo? >> >> I am not sure it was a typo. >> >> There was some discussion about this number of the section in the >> IEEE document. Some people argued about it, based on what appeared >> to me to be intermediary working IEEE documents, not fully released >> to the public. This is moving ground. >> >> So I removed that reference. >> > You could have also put Clause 6 without subclause classifier, > because it's unlikely to change main clause (I guess)? (although it > was added only in 2010, so it's not in the 1609.4-2006 standard, for > instance) I agree with the guessing part. > Otherwise it might be difficult to find for individuals reading the > text. Esp. if the entire reference is removed. So you suggest to keep paragraph and remove clause, like this? OLD: > A relevant function is described in IEEE 1609.3-2016 [IEEE-1609.3], > clause 5.5.1 and IEEE 1609.4-2016 [IEEE-1609.4], clause 6.7. NEW: > A relevant function is described in IEEE 1609.3-2016 [IEEE-1609.3] > and IEEE 1609.4-2016 [IEEE-1609.4]. > There is some terminology problem there as well, which I pointed out > in the Problem Statement review: the pseudonymization is known > alternately as "re-addressing", "pseudonymisation" or > "randomization". But well, every document can't solve every issue, > that's how it is. One can hear some vehi net talk about pseudonimisation as the use of an equivalent identifier, like in calling someone the prince of persia instead of true name. Send packets to pseudonym 'car1' instead of MAC address '00:09:0F:AA:00:01'. Having agreement on the concept may need much work. I will look at the psedonimisation earlier remarks in this sense. Alex > > best regards, > > Amelia > > >> Alex >> >> >>> >>> best regards, >>> >>> Amelia >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Alex >>> >>> > From nobody Wed Sep 19 07:03:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD669131023 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 07:02:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fGu6mJj8ehNd for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 07:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A410B1310AB for ; 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19 Sep 2018 14:02:50 +0000 Received: from [10.61.79.203] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4043.cisco.com [10.61.79.203]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w8JE2n5U005319; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:02:50 GMT To: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: <47d834c1-681e-5fd3-e726-a3adcbef30c1@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:02:49 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.79.203, ams3-vpn-dhcp4043.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:03:04 -0000 Mallory, I'm not going to go point for point with you, but want to focus on one: > 3. Requiring oppressed people to be the ones to stand up for > themselves, and to adequately explain their pain to oppressors, is a > constant drain. This problem has been identified. It is real. It is the > role of allies in spaces where they have privilege to stand up for > absolute justice (see point 1). Putting aside for the moment whether RGs should ally with anyone, for the 4th or 5th time (I'm losing count), just who in this instant case are we supposed to be allying with and how do they believe they're oppressed?  This is supposed to be a research group.  If you have findings please share them.  Expressing findings is a great way to inform participants.  Otherwise, how about we follow the rule of research and assume that our own counterfactual assertions are false? Eliot From nobody Wed Sep 19 08:00:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42F9130E1B; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:00:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pgc8acNQEADO; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A59641310C4; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w8JF0S7d035563; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:00:28 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 7757F204DBB; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:00:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671D9204D7E; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:00:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w8JF0STb027481; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:00:28 +0200 To: Amelia Andersdotter , Hrpc , its@ietf.org References: <32d8c171-2586-e2db-7cc6-26c3385b6946@article19.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <51b3f5a1-62fd-1842-9b4b-ba56858a124b@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:00:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <32d8c171-2586-e2db-7cc6-26c3385b6946@article19.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [ipwave] RFC8280 Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-25 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:00:45 -0000 part 2 of addressing the Human Rights reviewer comments. Le 07/09/2018 à 22:49, Amelia Andersdotter a écrit : [...] > > It was not immediately clear whether link-local addresses are > recommended for any particular purposes or use-cases. It is my > understanding that link-local addresses restrict the ability of an > interface to communicate with other interfaces than those with whom they > share a direct link, and that this may entail privacy benefits. But in > Section 4.6 there are conflicting references to RFC5889, where it's > specified that IPv6 link-local addressing should be avoided in ad hoc > networks. We clarified that by saying this in -28: > As recommended in , when the timing > requirements are very strict (e.g. fast drive through IP-RSU > coverage), no on-link subnet prefix should be configured on > an 802.11-OCB interface. In such cases, the exclusive use > of IPv6 link-local addresses is RECOMMENDED. > > Additionally, even if the timing requirements are not very > strict (e.g. the moving subnet formed by two following > vehicles is stable, a fixed IP-RSU is absent), the subnet is > disconnected from the Internet (a default route is absent), > and the addressing peers are equally qualified (impossible > to determine that some vehicle owns and distributes > addresses to others) the use of link-local addresses is > RECOMMENDED. > > Many considerations in the draft are impacted by the strong necessity to > use protection tools such as dynamic MAC re-addressing. This impacts the > ability to use IPv6 address generation as described in Section 4 of > RFC2464. But dynamic MAC re-addressing also would appear to justify the > recommendation to use stable IPv6 address generation as described in > RFC8064 or RFC7217. Currently, pseudonym handling is just briefly > mentioned at the end of Section 5 as a security issue but given its > impact on addressing and IPv6 address generation, I believe they merit > their own section. What is a pseudonym? It's easy to make a section for it. > > In Appendix F.1, it is not clear why a mechanism to uniquely identify a > vehicle is necessary. It should be clarified whether this is a technical > requirement (for instance, whether this constitutes a proposal to > introduce a unique identifier different from the Layer-2 MAC unique > identifier), or a legal requirement, and whether this new unique > identifier is intended for use in networking in general, or only for > specific circumstances. This I do not know. At ETSI it is usual to say that every emitter of CAM messages must have a unique Station ID. And, sure, every car must send CAMs. But from there to say that the whole car is identified just by the Station ID there is a long way. In the prototypes I work with there are very many identifiers. Each is relevant for the particular application. Then there is License Plate number, Vehicle Identification Number, insurance numbers, etc. Then there is the IMEI of the SIMs of the cellular interface(s). For IPv6-over-OCB - even here there is not only one MAC address, because there are multiple 802.11-OCB interfaces in one car. They are so cheap you can put as many as you want. I will remove Appendix F.1 "Vehicle ID". > ## Part 2: Internationalization, accessibility and transparency > ======================================= > > The functions described in this draft do not appear to be impacted by > Sections 6.2.5 (Internationalization), 6.2.11 (Accessibility) or 6.2.12 > (Localization) in RFC8280. Similarly, the applicability of Section > 6.2.19 (Outcome transparency) in RFC8280 seems largely related to issues > relating to authenticity, reliability and integrity. It is good. > > # Recommendations: > ============== > > 1. Collect all references to privacy and security in one place. If > privacy and security is in Section 4.5, 5 and Appendix F (as specified > in Section 4.5), this should be noted in Section 1. Also, privacy and > security issues are only mentioned in this document: recommendations for > their resolution are not present. This should be reflected in the Section 1. I collected all privacy and security in one place: the security considerations section. We do have now the MAC address change and the subsequent Interface ID change, in Security Considerations section, as a recommendation for resolution of some of the privacy issues left over after RFC8064 and RFC7217 are referred. For section 1: I added > The Security Considerations section describes security and > privacy aspects of 802.11-OCB. > 2. In Section 4, add a section named "Pseudonym handling" at the very > top, describing the issues raised in the final paragraph of Section 5. > Remove the last paragraph of Section 5. Earlier, I removed the last par of section 5. Rewrote it largely and put it in a new sub-section 'Privacy Considerations' within the 'Security Considerations' section. Now, I created a new section 'Pseudonym Handling' at the beginning of section 4. I do not know what to put inside. > 3.  The potential privacy benefits of link-local addresses could be > raised, especially since OCB transmissions are not secure against > curious nodes. On the other hand, RFC5889 Section 6.1 states that > link-local addressing is discouraged for ad hoc IPv6 networks. These > trade-offs could be expanded upon. Well. The use of link-local addresses are not a panacea to privacy worries. It could even be the reverse. But a new method to form link-local addresses offering more privacy than existing privacy methods is given in this draft that is not described anywhere else. As for RFC5889 forbidding LLs, I think I adressed that in other comment. I made clear in the draft which case the LLs are recommended, against RFC5889. This is in section 4.7 "Subnet Structure". > 4. In Section 4.3 and 4.5 it should be clarified what privacy benefits, > if any, are expected from using semantically obscure IIDs as proposed in > RFC7217. It will at least be relevant to clarify whether privacy > benefits could arise in contexts that are explicitly out of scope (such > as during forming, termination or handover), e.g. with respect to > parameter selection as specified in Appendix A of RFC7217. This requires some work to understand. It will be in part 3. > > # References: > ========= > > [RFC8280] Research into Human Rights Protocol Considerations > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8280 Should this RFC be referenced in the Internet Draft and how? Alex From nobody Wed Sep 19 08:13:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07563130E27 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:13:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E5BuQcDKmEKN for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic309-53.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic309-53.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBFD5130DD2 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:12:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537369974; bh=n/jyxFLiBQn1MpyY2Jct0haP+pq2yC1fvCbjTjW7iMQ=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=BbWOJvX8tnCt/mI+N4l7z4EkjnFbjr8FfQyYHTzZa7J0nvcnM6gP4oKu80P71VkyreeE2jzXxlzP0gkUfqfraWpYdI+OLk8xZZHje40ScvXNSeLXJ8/AOkWl78fMrLnzTtfCUYGXroLZ8zkaq+CgYFNdU2tctrTPXUga4tf916rU64v152u0iCEb/HUNRiDuNBkpExVQd20a4ToI4/03LPrFjJF7jGaUM2zmdPv4viecQIKcOzkm0P7S11sSBDheIhSXS0+wodbwk7gZG2EfDuABkEMcTNMuS8z89a00LwbUwhdiC3wtY+8Uak4uY+eVNDASJVWQ8sko4Jxv38IfVA== X-YMail-OSG: hxHTAv4VM1lpXjiAjfKcy9uwNJy3941YV8RQv6d8tWEtL6nFo5NL18ltt6lJDrH 7gTN5tP_SU0IcQjwUUrTvvI5alk.Uc27Obl7l6fEZMQMsx_bQR895_ulZGKL6NrvIhVi7jyo4_QX 3oLweO_BqoivRxyQgbWWHM4bSDYIoVsRYcj9z2Z5Jtgmk0B8RUdKmyPxpQjlZ0sAd_0a_tfeeJXj lplHJT5sk72dFibQPMsCuC6To0c_jFr2GNs8tfSmbe3_Pwgt4rYDrwfxnjC_RxnIeDNpRkii0tHz PWSxoPfAPMOL8KM27BuCOfuMufaS_NrnUHPpkYEF1214JkBNYmnyX97E5YOPr9WBKhD6sBF7CXBg BoSWlbxA0GPQJSG0bhpAMy4vezJ.Bg6WFfGIs2gym5p9sRLTZXm4cd_o2cyEx3DF0djwWUKDPEBL qGlUqrXOYJbnDCaVgiMDsi_4t9bMOpGB2Mu.XhFnwiuZJCfL6eE9rOqVlJSzIgAKlvhrc8TTC1fy CBPQMfHFIlGblSKPMRjjfsPRdw.R2q1od00BnncPYOf5emO2VApsPkETSOD.nvlR3Gv7yi5aOodT 9XEwfs4xWiIj2NpOy3HLHV5iphsV.5RMo3L8io.pYCepBQ0fdsKgZqhIYqut3kakGDcQNs_gZ0QQ dlcKz9nsXUP6y47LLt_KBLcJzovHcKPpLLcCEtR40w9kvLGwqsSRG8iZT1dYuYQ__0E.F5I7bHJe EaU2BsD41RTYPkLPx.VxDalEoxvSQAsntwC9Qy5MdZ7ftYA04tuGZHFVseW57vz_Wg7_MPMSFrxW UMIVTtom6kZ5pUB9vP.8ikgyrrAi2YbZuXdhPVPwVoVzgrq8cJTBrrq4vTYvxlj1l38YcQx7l0G7 tyy3aopfQ1Fyi_F.__B5EsAYDhIq1GESnnq9QqtteZHlJrAk5LGn751H3Rq58UNkyDYSmzSUWQxJ rZQUvhZJwlyfCXmA3MnsRQc37bijmA7hGslNcHDVHuKyRQlSAOMFRm64kbCEsLzqQDyioR8tEV2i Ju6MJseQ- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:12:54 +0000 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:59:32 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Vittorio Bertola , Amelia Andersdotter , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <671191874.467635.1537369172416@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1907606027.18601.1537360345516@appsuite.open-xchange.com> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <5beaff15-a9e8-0b35-0985-efe765036a08@cs.tcd.ie> <1172286953.16958.1537344907399@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <4b28d171-0798-f628-d83a-06bca5caab8b@article19.org> <1907606027.18601.1537360345516@appsuite.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_467634_1580664039.1537369172414" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12462 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:13:00 -0000 ------=_Part_467634_1580664039.1537369172414 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Il 19 settembre 2018 alle 13.14 Amelia Andersdotter ha scritto: >> >> I thought Andrew made a good point earlier in this regard: are measures >> requesting control aimed at changing the protocols or the architecture >> for protocols as deviced within IETF? Or are they in fact measures for >> control to be applied somewhere else? >Well, for example (the one I am familiar with) the already mentioned DNS-o= ver-HTTPS protocol does just that - it is a technical measure >designed to = make it impossible for governments and ISPs to exert control via DNS-based = policies on the content that is made accessible to >their citizens/users, a= nd if you have that discussion with the authors, they will proudly say that= this is intended. So it is definitely not policy->neutral; the protocol co= uld have encompassed ways for appropriate parties to supply DNS filtering p= olicies, or at least recommendations to >find ways to do so, but it does no= t. I might also add that at times when I have been part of a proposed protocol= change discussion, it is stated to me by others as a show-stopper that the= proposed feature *could* be used by a coercive government to repress its p= eople.=C2=A0 The reverse, that is, that a feature might be used by a benign= government to protect its people, is apparently not to be discussed. I also recall Mallory's statement about the group (whether she meant HRPC o= r the IETF is not clear)=C2=A0 "It seems to me that if more and more measures are passed by governments to= regulate content, while efforts in protocol and standards development try = to push more and more anti-censorship and resilience of content like this g= roup, then at some point that divergence is going to precipitate efforts to= influence design and development at these lower layers." So, what exactly are these "protocol efforts to push anti-censorship"?=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Should any of these discussions be at the IETF? Nalini =20 ------=_Part_467634_1580664039.1537369172414 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= /div>
>> Il 19 settembre 2018 a= lle 13.14 Amelia Andersdotter <ame= lia@article19.org= > ha scritto:


>>
>> I thought Andr= ew made a good point earlier in this regard: are measures
>> requesting control aimed at changing the protocols or the archite= cture
>> for protocols as deviced within IETF? Or a= re they in fact measures for
>> control to be appli= ed somewhere else?

>Well, for examp= le (the one I am familiar with) the already mentioned DNS-over-HTTPS protoc= ol does just that - it is a technical measure >designed to make it impos= sible for governments and ISPs to exert control via DNS-based policies on t= he content that is made accessible to >their citizens/users, and if you = have that discussion with the authors, they will proudly say that this is i= ntended. So it is definitely not policy->neutral; the protocol could hav= e encompassed ways for appropriate parties to supply DNS filtering policies= , or at least recommendations to >find ways to do so, but it does not.
I might also add that at times when = I have been part of a proposed protocol change discussion, it is stated to = me by others as a show-stopper that the proposed feature *could* be used by= a coercive government to repress its people.  The reverse, that is, t= hat a feature might be used by a benign government to protect its people, i= s apparently not to be discussed.

I also recall Mallory's statement about the group (whether= she meant HRPC or the IETF is not clear) 

"It seems to me that if more and more measur= es are passed by governments to regulate content, while efforts in protocol= and standards development try to push more and more anti-censorship and re= silience of content like this group, then at some point that divergence is = going to precipitate efforts to influence design and development at these l= ower layers."

So,= what exactly are these "protocol efforts to push anti-censorship"?  &= nbsp;

<= /div>
Should any = of these discussions be at the IETF?

Nalini

= ------=_Part_467634_1580664039.1537369172414-- From nobody Wed Sep 19 10:25:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB85126DBF for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:25:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GkRfk_dslb9w for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls5.std.com [192.74.137.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8839B128CFD for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8JHOhD5026089; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:24:45 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8JHObKg011826; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:24:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23458.34389.276330.143465@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:24:37 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Fred Baker Cc: Eliot Lear , Corinne Cath , Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever In-Reply-To: References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:25:06 -0000 Question: What does "shadowboxing" mean in this context? I've always used it in online discussions to refer to someone who argues with what they wished you had said because they have some canned or soundbite argument for that. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Wed Sep 19 11:19:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3B1128BAC for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:19:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b-nbitgt_Oli for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6420127B92 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g2h4e-0006pi-IM; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:19:41 +0200 To: Eliot Lear , hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> <47d834c1-681e-5fd3-e726-a3adcbef30c1@cisco.com> From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAHNJU1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QG1heWZpcnN0Lm9yZz7CwJgEEwECAEICGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo 9WUFCRAV234ACgkQDDKicb08x4DklAf+ODKRmP6C2MnBz6vL8N8l3vZJUqoRcYXTn3uTpT05 Wou87ZIZ/P/OV2/uOMKkczLQQydj5S8PxbLTeg+U5f/63hdy99ON+K2b4izg7Qasdl1SqXTH q1pmhbrcbLbVKDJ345fdEg7RuMnv4gd3EaT/yQa99zHy8JHaBKaPEUQAa65HTt2Sy2c6L6BA aMZx1TOZ9/cZ7L1gJyytJbEyvg/JLOatJEI4rewUWU2TMSGJijwjAUBagwDPWyxpz+vXdKsD tqRTpY4xvXaeUQo0QXf0c5j1Gcglzv7ywZcyz1MGD1aLS9/CqeB3I4EMbvH/33LS3jNkfKbV XOTSjmo7l22CNc7ATQRMdE1nAQgA4mpP2LjFuAW2li9FPbDYOMzt0MtThXsnvHyY0fDv8FlU qnKgPrMY80VHntnxwqepFS3ncunVX4ipq+fadta+LHpTnbJSmlphBrc9qGJxqcjwf4yo35Xh OXCJFwnaoAwIX237lXRe4Xh6X4VMuJt8jiZdvgpbk/whvQH2grcq8KjCcy1iuL5pBl8ZwYG/ dphitFhQdqEcnc/krIqG4KQgKiUi3K/GR0OeEmw/cscWD7/CLEo7eHiaGQhSOyDQbM+Iu2o/ 6uMXMUPsYlMMqgmVL68zMacO3PE17jx0rQ8oZ7CpBY8YZWOWrzXrtFT8JO9guuCPsvd4KT6y 97y9LRJlPQARAQABwsB8BBgBAgAmAhsMFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo9WYF CRAV238ACgkQDDKicb08x4DU4QgAmlyBlFhfU0jpkbyD3HQ+3CJqWdBT422pVIrj3qNT2ehy fWO66Muidmd4Y279uV3p3TQEJOQvnV7FVAC9+bI7AdBy00BAjHgJ5eSQZxKTXUoeeBAsTZHN /HaHewjYWHMvCuuzir/Wt3A6Cehh8gp9I/Vg+oL3dTldVqqgZLgnA83bT/R8fI/e85LDlpdx KJ0+uy/grg3AbH7LUUrmMIC2iO8mQWYuNlizsUZLFvJhCAU2c5l8B5mv2BoWFhL+l7mmNcdF bwBFXon7Ea1jkCnbWVxtXkPYkcuWuMSTJswn9HhZVJWjUonKqUZKAb9PxRzC9crZ+X14tQT3 iJt2a4ZM4w== Message-ID: <4539138b-6a7e-cf13-7aad-b40e797de821@article19.org> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:19:33 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <47d834c1-681e-5fd3-e726-a3adcbef30c1@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: f0eed3f1d89bc5fb772880ef8d54351a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 18:19:47 -0000 On 19/09/18 17:02, Eliot Lear wrote: > On 19/09/18 14:56, Mallory Knodel wrote: >> 3. Requiring oppressed people to be the ones to stand up for >> themselves, and to adequately explain their pain to oppressors, is a >> constant drain. This problem has been identified. It is real. It is th= e >> role of allies in spaces where they have privilege to stand up for >> absolute justice (see point 1). >=20 > Putting aside for the moment whether RGs should ally with anyone, for > the 4th or 5th time (I'm losing count), just who in this instant case > are we supposed to be allying with and how do they believe they're > oppressed?=C2=A0 This is supposed to be a research group.=C2=A0 If you = have > findings please share them.=C2=A0 Expressing findings is a great way to > inform participants.=C2=A0 Otherwise, how about we follow the rule of > research and assume that our own counterfactual assertions are false? Check out the OP: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8x7akv/masterslave-terminology= -was-removed-from-python-programming-language And LMGTFY: "We need better metaphors" https://current.workingdirectory.net/posts/2011/master-slave/ "Master/slave' named most politically incorrect term" https://www.seattlepi.com/national/article/Master-slave-named-most-politi= cally-incorrect-1161133.php "Python joins movement to dump 'offensive' master, slave terms" https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/09/11/python_purges_master_and_slave_i= n_political_pogrom/ "Replace 'master/slave' terminology with 'primary/replica'" https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2275877 "Even in tech, words matter" https://deninet.com/blog/2018/09/09/even-tech-words-matter --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Wed Sep 19 11:41:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293A6128766 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZbWuVhNTtbRv for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls4.std.com [192.74.137.144]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FA5D1310D7 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8JIevr9011328; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:41:00 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8JIepV0013391; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:40:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23458.38963.859388.909770@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:40:51 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: hrpc@irtf.org In-Reply-To: <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Human Rights Is Hard X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 18:41:19 -0000 Occasionally it occurs to me how differently human rights are treated even among countries one might think were very similar. In the current issue of The Economist (Sept 15-21 2018, 175th anniversary edition), a UK publication, I see the following ("Weak is strong", p 16): "...As Congress has grown incapable of passing laws involving even straightforward political trade-offs, power has flowed to the executive and judicial branches. Political questions best settled by the ballot box -- about abortion, for instance, or gay marriage -- have become legal ones settled by nine unelected judges." No doubt one can find a spectrum of opinion but as an American I find that statement shocking. Rights shouldn't be a matter for the ballot box. 51% of the people shouldn't be able to vote to kill or enslave the other 49%. Their two examples, abortion and gay marriage, are perfect counter-examples to what they are trying to say. A woman has a right to privacy or she doesn't. If she has that right as decided in Roe v Wade based on constitutional arguments then one cannot make it a subject of a popular vote -- other than the nuclear option: change the US constitution. Similar, worse actually, for gay rights. Worse because only about 10-15% of the US population identifies as gay while 51% of the population are women vis a vis abortion. So let the other 85% vote on their rights? But to even say that draws one into a game of who has a legitimate voting interest in a matter. Gay marriage in the US was first enabled in the US when the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court decided that the state has no legitimate interest in preventing it (2004.) And later the US supreme court agreed. It wasn't a grant or a privilege, it was a recognition that prohibiting gay marriage had been wrong all along. Without belaboring those specific issues the point is how startling The Economist's take is on these human rights issue to me. And this is in a "leader" article from their editorial staff, words it's safe to assume they considered very carefully. It is as if they have trouble grasping the notion of a human right recognized and clarified by a court as enshrined in a constitution versus polling the public via ballot boxes. And this is the US and UK, perhaps two of the closest countries culturally in the world. It gives one pause. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Wed Sep 19 12:17:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED94130EA6 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:17:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11AwA4bloR3t for ; 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i="5.53,395,1531785600"; d="asc'?scan'208"; a="6665830" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 19 Sep 2018 19:17:36 +0000 Received: from [10.61.79.203] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4043.cisco.com [10.61.79.203]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w8JJHaI5011941; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:17:36 GMT To: bzs@theworld.com, Fred Baker Cc: Corinne Cath , Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <23458.34389.276330.143465@gargle.gargle.HOWL> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:17:35 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <23458.34389.276330.143465@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gvo6p2eayTy9r3NFIsAsFm083rJJkXpIM" X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.79.203, ams3-vpn-dhcp4043.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:17:41 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --gvo6p2eayTy9r3NFIsAsFm083rJJkXpIM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="RqKmlHrAVCxIib1ugK4eAVAya1AFeWuIK"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: bzs@theworld.com, Fred Baker Cc: Corinne Cath , Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[hrpc]_We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was:_Re:_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=e2=80=98Master/Slave=e2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pytho?= =?UTF-8?Q?n=29?= References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <23458.34389.276330.143465@gargle.gargle.HOWL> In-Reply-To: <23458.34389.276330.143465@gargle.gargle.HOWL> --RqKmlHrAVCxIib1ugK4eAVAya1AFeWuIK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 19.09.18 19:24, bzs@theworld.com wrote: > Question: What does "shadowboxing" mean in this context? > > I've always used it in online discussions to refer to someone who > argues with what they wished you had said because they have some > canned or soundbite argument for that. > To me it is "addressing an imagined problem".=C2=A0 But- see my next mess= age. Eliot --RqKmlHrAVCxIib1ugK4eAVAya1AFeWuIK-- --gvo6p2eayTy9r3NFIsAsFm083rJJkXpIM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAluioM8ACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejOFUAf/UwDmGNdK98ihaxTJNxixKeMLpiec52lo1UlKE54YcJ37nZK7wkVwro+Z zVooKQ80EqOvwENWvVrVDfH/fEnQP/ogO7+4efQ55EeV05tBgAqgTJSqBDiWzYt5 WL2fAK30A0ScXaqkSfezJqc46ZNjeYt74NEA94kjQVGz4X1crKnXIwThqyTWRmZ9 nWTUjRHG/hQD4PwsI9ASikOh8asPM6NwnV47wHIzsyzj8k9Kn4Bz5AC2QqEykV66 BVD3AsEYPoom5+WwLcPPcQr6MdpL4yghC6ZDKaXtKL9N18h5NUX4OKGYJnFo+WLY UYq8GS/cWZVQKfE0ACmfUWqyIase/w== =UvDW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gvo6p2eayTy9r3NFIsAsFm083rJJkXpIM-- From nobody Wed Sep 19 12:18:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB80130EAC for ; 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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:18:07 GMT To: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> <47d834c1-681e-5fd3-e726-a3adcbef30c1@cisco.com> <4539138b-6a7e-cf13-7aad-b40e797de821@article19.org> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:18:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4539138b-6a7e-cf13-7aad-b40e797de821@article19.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.79.203, ams3-vpn-dhcp4043.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:18:12 -0000 Hi Mallory, Thank you.  Please see below. Of the links, the only one that REALLY demonstrates actual offense to an individual is this one, and it's somewhat third hand. > > "Replace 'master/slave' terminology with 'primary/replica'" > https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2275877 This is perhaps the most damning: > Somehow even this has a sexist angle: in the Django issue a devops > person (presumedly female) complains about others making dominatrix > jokes at her because of master/slave terminology yeah, that's definitely not ok.  If the terminology is facilitating abuse, then surely it should be avoided.  And if there is really more of this, then I'll sit down.  That is the sort of evidence I think we were looking for, tho. Eliot From nobody Wed Sep 19 12:23:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C4613108F for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:23:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6tETY1UOfwlN for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A15B1310AD for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id 130-v6so3644236qkd.10 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:23:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=R7ECZp6oyUObLhZJ+3y46zhXWiLmD2lPlOuoOmFHTIA=; b=tt+6CX67q6YexRXBmTXv/dNSjok1WFndIS0Yxmdwjn+VriiGDRvRbqOGxTBrT/m+1n m9+40lxk1/3yNE6oNaGgGR3kxW/jWqwpoaUM9Biz8HvYpjev3cA1x1kG8six6l7KAQOK xAjEoXUxLzcMYCMwLtsSxWPa/SB5nBvWIgZV3UjjnxFGo+7se+/6B0cgn3Y9epS+GVoe moYsW6FAO1GLQl1hdh//PPVCecn9KiKnAQr/gXqWVJ5Z+kZ6TA2sT0ZSe4LKX5sRMkz6 56hB2HlELNUUkAyaNoze7qLG30ykIQQWQKaa9KT7IsUb90OVhuElD1XKhGYET+UQ+EQU MZ+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=R7ECZp6oyUObLhZJ+3y46zhXWiLmD2lPlOuoOmFHTIA=; b=Y82xlmbzPnoTYNCmjvNeGzW1HnT/m1sh+Ja71Xb5WhBO1S/EtNBpD+nWjMp2kZrXNN nvHfi3au4ltSwZQToCMBn3whhYJvg8x0iSG0QKSU9AYk0L4KBPxw3w+6RX6sbYnFW1xp /sv6TKgXI7vl9BKRGGX6UN8DjlM5P08oHyZKXxu4gjrKbmIfhg8Y6EK+HbMvcsbB9T8S 3x4FKx15UXLm42SqZOkXRKeEj5m0gYOqbFxWzn8Ultp4DQ3UQfplgqRTCOy1BU2MjkT0 rJVYCNgbvOBQNaNqEtH0L+bMZakbylDAiPBrQQmo1XF9tO1ygHIq659cfrA8ZTfcB+4E M7Rw== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51AxAXGCfS9NI2gdUn9ShG5PDkHL8myht+LHNSG1YZdGLhYJwrya 966QRB9a4gSKrGISf8M+ns7/sA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdaxO5fh6ZFw9kx7rE7AV9BjkxFaCQx/V/G/eGIR2GfoxGGAUGp2VcdS9A+jJZswOWnQ0L9yjA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:28d4:: with SMTP id o81-v6mr24928104qko.320.1537384994672; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-167-89-221.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.89.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c16-v6sm2228137qtp.39.2018.09.19.12.23.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:23:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <88385942-3343-4183-8BF9-32FA055048DF@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C8F83887-52B9-455F-B2C4-E62AF8A73E96" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:23:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: <23458.38963.859388.909770@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org To: bzs@theworld.com References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> <23458.38963.859388.909770@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Human Rights Is Hard X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:23:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C8F83887-52B9-455F-B2C4-E62AF8A73E96 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Barry, I don't know if this is really an HRPC topic. FWIW, while I = understand your concern, if you look at history, it tends to be the case = that laws that treat people in ways that are obviously unfair are passed = by minorities, not majorities. There is no majority in the U.S. in = favor of restricting womens' reproductive rights. There is no majority = in the U.S. in favor of treating gay marriages differently than straight = marriages. But both of these statements are about something new. Historically, = there were majorities for both of those things. What changed was not = that judges made decisions to protect the minority, although they did. = What changed was the culture. The n=C3=A4ivet=C3=A9 of the sixties was that we could just get the = judiciary to protect our rights, and that we didn't actually have to = make the case to the people as a whole. We are paying the price for = that now=E2=80=94relying on the judiciary to protect these rights has = resulted in 30 years of squabbling over who sits on the court, which has = been to nobody's benefit, and is the cause of our current trouble. There is a tendency to think that if the law says X, X is decided, and = we can count on it. So with rights for example, if a right exists, = then it has to be defended, and it will be defended, because it's a = right. But that's not how rights work. Rights work because the = majority agrees that they are rights. This is how rights have = appeared, seemingly out of nowhere, over the centuries. The right to = vote? That wasn't granted by a judge. The right to be free of = enslavement? That was the result of a long, hard effort by a bunch of = people who were not loved by the general public at first, and who in = some cases were murdered for their temerity. Plus there was that whole = war we fought over it. So imagining that something as weak as the Supreme Court can protect our = rights if we don't do the work to get the majority on our side is silly. To go back to my original point, most people, when the laws were passed = against these rights, if they hadn't been asked about gay rights or = abortion rights, would have no strong opinion about either. What got = abortion outlawed, and what got gay relationships outlawed, were small = minorities with an axe to grind working against these rights, and the = large majority doing nothing, because they didn't really care one way or = the other. So in fact I agree with the Economist: if we want to protect civil = rights, it's not enough to get a court to protect them. We have to get = the general public to protect them. --Apple-Mail=_C8F83887-52B9-455F-B2C4-E62AF8A73E96 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Barry, I don't know if this is really an HRPC topic.   = FWIW, while I understand your concern, if you look at history, it tends = to be the case that laws that treat people in ways that are obviously = unfair are passed by minorities, not majorities.   There is no = majority in the U.S. in favor of restricting womens' reproductive = rights.   There is no majority in the U.S. in favor of treating gay = marriages differently than straight marriages.

But both of these statements are about = something new.   Historically, there were majorities for both of = those things.   What changed was not that judges made decisions to = protect the minority, although they did.   What changed was the = culture.

The = n=C3=A4ivet=C3=A9 of the sixties was that we could just get the = judiciary to protect our rights, and that we didn't actually have to = make the case to the people as a whole.   We are paying the price = for that now=E2=80=94relying on the judiciary to protect these rights = has resulted in 30 years of squabbling over who sits on the court, which = has been to nobody's benefit, and is the cause of our current = trouble.

There = is a tendency to think that if the law says X, X is decided, and we can = count on it.   So with rights for example, if a right exists, then = it has to be defended, and it will be defended, = because it's a right.   But that's not how rights work.   = Rights work because the majority agrees that they are rights.   = This is how rights have appeared, seemingly out of nowhere, over the = centuries.   The right to vote?   That wasn't granted by a = judge.   The right to be free of enslavement?   That was the = result of a long, hard effort by a bunch of people who were not loved by = the general public at first, and who in some cases were murdered for = their temerity.   Plus there was that whole war we fought over = it.

So = imagining that something as weak as the Supreme Court can protect our = rights if we don't do the work to get the = majority on our side is silly.

To go back to my original point, most = people, when the laws were passed against these rights, if they hadn't = been asked about gay rights or abortion rights, would have no strong = opinion about either.   What got abortion outlawed, and what got = gay relationships outlawed, were small minorities with an axe to grind = working against these rights, and the large majority doing nothing, = because they didn't really care one way or the other.

So in fact I agree with = the Economist: if we want to protect civil rights, it's not enough to = get a court to protect them.   We have to get the general public to = protect them.

= --Apple-Mail=_C8F83887-52B9-455F-B2C4-E62AF8A73E96-- From nobody Wed Sep 19 12:25:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94091310AB for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:24:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZNKzU0EZ2oSe for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22d.google.com (mail-qt0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AA2413106A for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id j7-v6so6241169qtp.2 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:24:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=avuY09cx7MSr2EG5eXz2hzJReH4SQCH08aKFqLoM5gA=; b=B3ZBVnLqdX7fUBVpXaRq1Ism6ua7FQ+N/BmNeUZndo7mAr8VdP7Af5j87RR+gQTyFv bjUEsRlsKfLKSlOtvjUny+eh5HLYGEyi9Us6aX5I1ZwO0N/Fgb1Lg506EByu7iGmnqvL 0Y5aHhN4RxYReJqgGZ5441KkNi3LKTiPrlZXHrrZAJyW27E5c4q42+XLCM2+66ccnVcB CsMOPDBuMG1lCSK3KmfDowa2Z3s92UCmZoMdEQV4q10NbNevC1m+cEXSKTH84GJubcbi MphjItroIrttVZU2OyR4WkvTfQ1ikfi4L39rwb6MT9DkP9V3XJwXxfzQNZ2iC+4ovQ6h Fthw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=avuY09cx7MSr2EG5eXz2hzJReH4SQCH08aKFqLoM5gA=; b=p20Y3i4FHRtR+jRNPr7uzXUhyTN4XCYaZvnpU4YoLkk0Us3bO95GmrenZzO9h63RDc zyW+J9wBZxjefwRNDqMzyf1wB6CPFykNNqDKRU+mRj4p9ozV9BWB8+Tv97nzf1d/qjv7 HEFfEW9fX8RR0ZhtbWEuhTgLt8iTn4mEFaQ/R5LSdK4SI8r/TMb5EbeMISroj16yCaqs 5aiysPlXL7XApSFXxGbCg9DD7oq4HZVNyUXFXLJ4nngQ8GQdf0TFG6EwJfZN2grImZDv 1CcnONTmvSiXex6p2uX/x3NdvHtgMcnm22cvgH6nbInKx1RuyaBw/tVZejzUvZ5qDunE BXAg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51D8qUQuUCVOSKaZs2jRtReeCh1iF8X1oqPzhKntfUanuVl4q+T8 TvTv1TrHPif/JMRqdeVjHbyeUA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdavSWoCpd93bDPgEafv+UUJRXFIjMKeUWVqPfjlxtbZZZzt2CYRZG4mHMFCFe4TbLFSCRWCxw== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:9dd0:: with SMTP id p16-v6mr26210506qvf.211.1537385093407; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-167-89-221.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.89.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a17-v6sm12729659qkb.62.2018.09.19.12.24.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:24:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_11244C51-8C9D-48C3-B144-251F5AB54ADF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:24:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: <23458.34389.276330.143465@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Cc: Fred Baker , Eliot Lear , Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever To: bzs@theworld.com References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <23458.34389.276330.143465@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:25:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_11244C51-8C9D-48C3-B144-251F5AB54ADF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 19, 2018, at 1:24 PM, bzs@theworld.com wrote: > I've always used it in online discussions to refer to someone who > argues with what they wished you had said because they have some > canned or soundbite argument for that. No, that's a straw man argument. Shadowboxing is solving a problem we = think exists that isn't actually known to exist. At least, I think = that's what Eliot means by the term. --Apple-Mail=_11244C51-8C9D-48C3-B144-251F5AB54ADF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Sep 19, 2018, at 1:24 PM, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
I've always used it in online discussions to refer to someone = who
argues with = what they wished you had said because they have some
canned or = soundbite argument for that.

No, that's a straw man argument.   = Shadowboxing is solving a problem we think exists that isn't actually = known to exist.   At least, I think that's what Eliot means by the = term.

= --Apple-Mail=_11244C51-8C9D-48C3-B144-251F5AB54ADF-- From nobody Wed Sep 19 12:34:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7859C130E14 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:34:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nBuXn5J35n4c for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x235.google.com (mail-qt0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3814C124BE5 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x235.google.com with SMTP id k38-v6so6223680qtk.11 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:34:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=wYWVBb+G0UGLWdGKoqKnRRiDoWCukCnB0dgcyQA7WKg=; b=eaXJkIO5Ob2myklVC/u/J3qyZXEQdDE32cIOTZYR8fGd8f4fkMl9fo1pceazjA1UKC h+kvMeF8B19ULlVAjNPeTRk7S0IcWDpkxg6IzO0KO+M86i5Jasq2+FXz6APuSoGnlivP uFkKQJ3vEN+jYX4F5qwp56uZSGpGB4YnztSPViIKizg0qf9o0DTQbrAN/qTkWAmIB89i q8wPnL4vyJ9ZSOicUnyGr2YKbjIUQhO65kGBcWHCDFL+NMP3vk3rtP3o/jEbgP2XbGBp nHGY/cRdFRWltgVs3ARGE/vgATcAFGhTPNBh+/8oPHW9VJfL0NFfZJDzNIgee1qD7vxZ dAGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=wYWVBb+G0UGLWdGKoqKnRRiDoWCukCnB0dgcyQA7WKg=; b=JGNB5gjbOHS1tgidl5Dav6lGB5YanZbOmokiWca+hjvDL1F7wDzmARa0dsstdm4uH2 vWeCkeOtYn7HWoIql2D7bvpTO1WZ/+MNg+ELFXSPmy39WchGamZIMH7vCv2ysimLxVit e5FmHZg0GOSxDtaqlT5xpo9FFr+CQpF6u3DEnyYLWWfiO37sgYszSVDtAq710clql90V h4xV69cgwgcTzLwIYLSkmUOlRYnSf1gwj23RCVVP//meX12puzL1lJBgffD9R+voBMyS zv4aHXhRcXJ6sMwAng38dy/9zu2XEWBZxuJfgABYbmvmVgHhMksF1S7OpB4YN+EFkR/q pNDg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51B4z66n/cwoYeRNeaNF3/F8YTBZQvglQWJhOC2YrSBQk9a/OPA1 fwFtoHCtFH9xs4Z1eIdJCBOHPqTxidKCyg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdY8BVzJKg4lcHxpMNXTC+2hYt5hb8Svrl/MflzOH+4cJrbnq31hhKWu7pDcERz0xqnO3KC5bA== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:885b:: with SMTP id 27-v6mr25877570qvm.115.1537385651295; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-167-89-221.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.89.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d67-v6sm12137317qkc.90.2018.09.19.12.34.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:34:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5A83F151-D104-44F6-ACA7-DAE812AA800C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:34:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org To: Eliot Lear References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> <47d834c1-681e-5fd3-e726-a3adcbef30c1@cisco.com> <4539138b-6a7e-cf13-7aad-b40e797de821@article19.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:34:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5A83F151-D104-44F6-ACA7-DAE812AA800C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Sep 19, 2018, at 3:18 PM, Eliot Lear = wrote: > If the terminology is facilitating > abuse, then surely it should be avoided. And if there is really more = of > this, then I'll sit down. I thought I'd made this point earlier, but maybe not. Is it actually = facilitating abuse. Admittedly we have no systematic data. I don't = know how we'd go about collecting it=E2=80=94one of the problems we have = is that there really is substantial and very visible abuse of = non-white-male programmers, but most people just give up and do = something else rather than staying in the field, so there isn't a = population out there that can easily be canvassed. What evidence we do have is that people complained, anonymously, to = python.org . Redis did a poll of their membership = and a majority (small) wanted to change the term. We know that = harassment of the type you're referencing is commonplace in the = industry, so this term is certainly at a minimum an attractive nuisance. It would be great to have more data, but this also seems pretty = common-sensical. If you have a term that can be used in abusive ways, = and there's another term that you could use that doesn't have this = property, it makes sense to use the other term. --Apple-Mail=_5A83F151-D104-44F6-ACA7-DAE812AA800C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Sep 19, 2018, at 3:18 PM, Eliot Lear <lear=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:
If the = terminology is facilitating
abuse, then surely it should be avoided.  And if there = is really more of
this, then I'll sit down.

I thought I'd made this point earlier, but = maybe not.   Is it actually facilitating = abuse.   Admittedly we have no systematic data.   I don't know = how we'd go about collecting it=E2=80=94one of the problems we have is = that there really is substantial and very visible abuse of = non-white-male programmers, but most people just give up and do = something else rather than staying in the field, so there isn't a = population out there that can easily be canvassed.

What evidence we do have = is that people complained, anonymously, to python.org.   Redis did a poll of their membership = and a majority (small) wanted to change the term.   We know that = harassment of the type you're referencing is commonplace in the = industry, so this term is certainly at a minimum an attractive = nuisance.

It = would be great to have more data, but this also seems pretty = common-sensical.   If you have a term that can be used in abusive = ways, and there's another term that you could use that doesn't have this = property, it makes sense to use the other term.

= --Apple-Mail=_5A83F151-D104-44F6-ACA7-DAE812AA800C-- From nobody Wed Sep 19 13:01:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE3B130E1C for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:01:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Hxywt1exR7W for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nuanti.com (nuanti.com [207.192.69.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEA9F12DD85 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nuanti.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D28280E6; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:01:57 -0000 On 19/09/2018 03:34, Fred Baker wrote: >> >> I think Fred's point is that we are shadowboxing. > > Hello from Denver, en route home. Yes. The topic of the list is human rights in protocol design. My point is that this is extremely hypothetical, and no instance of a specific human being with a specific human right has been shown to be affected. Niels and Ted have mentioned theoretical people that in theory could be, but not people who have, and rights that could in theory have been tested, but none which actually have. I’m asking “where’s the beef?†> > We’re shadow boxing. I share Fred's concerns on this one. As an RG, the prerogative of this list is to produce research that establishes facts and advises the direction of protocol design in the framework of human rights. Bike-shedding and second guessing the priorities of under-represented communities doesn't do much good, indeed there's plenty of evidence that such discussions actually deny the agency of those groups (a phenomenon I can vouch for through personal experience). Members of this list have access to diverse technical/academic networks. ISOC has over 110 active Chapters across six continents. These would make good starting points for a consultation. Perhaps there are more terms that are offensive - or perhaps these aren't the ones, or perhaps the priorities are different altogether. We should hear those voices. If terms like whitelist/blacklist are offensive to engineers across the world, that's a good sign that it is time for change. A. > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > -- https://netblocks.org @atoker @netblocks From nobody Wed Sep 19 13:04:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86C912F1AC for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:04:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EzqiaRh6fU3q for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x232.google.com (mail-qt0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D6AC12DD85 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x232.google.com with SMTP id o15-v6so6339246qtk.6 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:04:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=7YVwCPuYy0eUsB7s2EwizhioxXmlyS6/0SPPdwgTFvY=; b=bBxeX+HVoRCgidAEASkzwFN+vO548eiTUx/zNgoxWxkX+Vbsnon5SzmMK/koWuWX9Y 5ZUPwnwCzXy/gWkrzqN69iv0d/tM8yomyhrP3Q2VY7HEQyuZ2eDT1hEaAAqXiwpezJi5 iM3yRnAwxSIg4PQfKQTxp2OoQ7HgoVZud40jD/+nTX7zWX4C7eYOKI8upckB5Epg9MXf tI9cc/9loHVyCfoggrOCjJoIO3MVnu29C72930zqQYujeyXU2JGr0tSERvdrdFj6SgiB 33u46I02aj7mNuhmVSZ4IdkVj1kLOHel/m5wW0JrpS1r3ps8fqxc5mC0HrPQCUKbM1w7 VGOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=7YVwCPuYy0eUsB7s2EwizhioxXmlyS6/0SPPdwgTFvY=; b=opm0gZzHDa/VUmEz6fGZLbGlWnSntbzAIBW+Q24CklWrI7Ng31vJuSmlcI0d/JbTGE FVUE20RptvMdOiTj85MdXRdFC/5zOilLUg6INJym03W2MkQj/U/5Eeu910waNMLoGAW5 nPxtTO589MZW27lWn2u1twHcmVzT29mjwdbNwvpZQ7S69aaH21mzWcWJyTBtRdscN7G2 ZmqHGXzNC79npeV8qC9c3AMJLS0QSJio9/RK7a3yP7WejQLAOXmo9+mVWprFurMs+KIB NFdqZRVGYcvPoNR6yXJ8kcynrnlVxRI5xDKtVVcd0YxwV/ahV/SXppZXAIejRovPWMV7 jMKg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51AujDypsnhJyhMPETTlsMV0K6uqYJdW4zQ8ZtHKylu1qnRJAEdZ vgVr6vlTZOn/6Mmu+ujJycjZYA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdYSiZ225vb3oPKYixM+1wHAnZxnDYKz1RMPNR0Tz6pzOJiQrG8Ne/KSmyiMCdyTcAD0q0mSBQ== X-Received: by 2002:aed:3403:: with SMTP id w3-v6mr26041489qtd.165.1537387446383; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-167-89-221.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.89.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v187-v6sm12424516qka.73.2018.09.19.13.04.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:04:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DE0BAE64-495F-41B2-82C4-2F11E44C5EE1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:04:04 -0400 In-Reply-To: <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> Cc: Fred Baker , Eliot Lear , Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever To: Alp Toker References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:04:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DE0BAE64-495F-41B2-82C4-2F11E44C5EE1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 19, 2018, at 4:01 PM, Alp Toker wrote: > If terms like whitelist/blacklist are offensive to engineers across the > world, that's a good sign that it is time for change. This one is pretty questionable. I think that master/slave is not, though. --Apple-Mail=_DE0BAE64-495F-41B2-82C4-2F11E44C5EE1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Sep 19, 2018, at 4:01 PM, Alp Toker <alp@netblocks.org> = wrote:
If terms like = whitelist/blacklist are offensive to engineers across the
world, that's = a good sign that it is time for change.

This one is pretty questionable.   I = think that master/slave is not, though.

= --Apple-Mail=_DE0BAE64-495F-41B2-82C4-2F11E44C5EE1-- From nobody Wed Sep 19 13:24:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81BBD130E19 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:24:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=Am0cOxUD; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=k8HS1DFX Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RfEk2fnAXIKf for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0285C12D7EA for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9F5D21C24; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:24:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=c/3zmw1IZLjW+ceu8LA/luzE5IfX9 5vWEemE+HoURkk=; b=Am0cOxUDVfoxuctQjfN6+/DkmQdM/oIqJKRpxXbXXuDS7 3yvg5mOGUe/Kb07v5KgO+8Q5fdB2T0pVUmd9N4/ElpCO1d7kELIMiCVUSPKIB+kf xqpaq887L4CgKpOUm5EUzFiPofWv3liB1bqprTku1dXe9Zd9i4YT/w9XuzXjlETz wuLtDWLNT9GUHhKaLyeAT+u8k9zFRNV8fDx8MsgcvwHMTy6TuOOmd/pwO1ZiCg3V Ncrvs27A7V4cLGJHdE0WYrD4X9pMTTGotKr/JWePoz7/N1sxm0vfzevnYsIGGs2n Ws2xr5cxd/wBXIqM9z97ub5jnzS2VD4JOteBgvcYQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=c/3zmw 1IZLjW+ceu8LA/luzE5IfX95vWEemE+HoURkk=; b=k8HS1DFXaLIMRO9sqneg/G cv9dx2BECtfJvl5wjlXIa9PDNHDEyCVaqEtC+8rZ2iT1n2ypeO2Bnq5+/CJBQRZw L4edF1RRPySVs3qGg9g6pswCN8Axt/hGzUWpD5SIf3Ivw5gowIL8qzWPcs89iBqC HFsbadc8h+/awzQy+Z+KrDGtslZTxEzY8knlNwQN3jpP6pMfq/s1nkR9xSgUeGHB p0tORSeD2mVmWVlHBJXf5emtG6kA0VNcU4yK0MQQop7hrfNJnAEb8CmUDP3WZOxz SFklLQ1rcZUvpnW0kEvPs73knsjcZ/i0n09dRyKmq6dv1poM0Z5pc1hxfhKLgKEQ == X-ME-Proxy: X-ME-Sender: Received: from [10.26.179.47] (nat-216-240-30-23.netapp.com [216.240.30.23]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CE70EE479F; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:24:44 -0400 Cc: Alp Toker , Corinne Cath , Niels ten Oever , Hrpc , Eliot Lear , Fred Baker Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:24:51 -0000 That's interesting. I've seen several projects where moving away from = these terms is utterly uncontroversial.=20 Suggestion: I think this should be a discussion on ietf@, if people want = to pursue it. Even if we were able to get consensus here (and some = people seem to be arguing that it's out of scope), HRPC doesn't set = policy for terminology at the IETF. Cheers, P.S. FWIW - I'm surprised that people are putting so much energy into = stopping this.=20 > On 19 Sep 2018, at 4:04 pm, Ted Lemon wrote: >=20 > On Sep 19, 2018, at 4:01 PM, Alp Toker wrote: >> If terms like whitelist/blacklist are offensive to engineers across = the >> world, that's a good sign that it is time for change. >=20 > This one is pretty questionable. I think that master/slave is not, = though. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Sep 19 13:31:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72FE1130E80 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:31:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TXacYWdR73qq for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic312-21.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic312-21.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.128.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84E18120072 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:31:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537389093; bh=HoV9AaM1b6UNW4s3gDMWZjc3jWxynLRW3U2kPYtXBM0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=Atfg6Pe075SQCtFNdH9PyWJP8LHkxQYsnkDklJ83T2KjAumJbP/obc7YHa2IzZxqGPAOjQhw1gvrIfgcocvzuVBVQXNqTKdQ3SxVxHBxxVLe3Oa8DtvQhclLFoWnXGKswTSIVRNqJI/dt5TMriIWsqf5ZQ3QuFom0br2FrGQgVatwGSViro0pWiYYRJqI18J3yANQm7aGz3F8qCdsfa/Ivt9Hou9dloJwqnSon0wo/22ivrc3LiR9Xr5ua3ueZ5/ioNF2AqRndRFwHqpQE+vuu0Dn10+L3y/61k94xvIrttvMpNCVxo7PwzdE9hGkbjMZ+ZdZsEUtBvxcWEWXg/c3A== X-YMail-OSG: jQX6HJwVM1lsD9RGz1jCHfrO.v9HS9kUQGAsaDeyjq6b3jsMv9nwACbUhokRoby iGjCKfY.QHVAHVqaTpnGAKYKwEVk2CS0fZFmchCmJORqyplWQ25OxR8dfZMuAAG12e6VBd3KqNDi __EVcTlYZnCzlg3hHZ.o9sqd5c8MDgNiZWZ5uQkt5N2Pro5o1naHSNJTqXML7BjUqieyR1fMAkwM eAYZlIzekAgA6gtvXjZ3JgAdns6myhHOd4zqkSO7wTiamDxQs6hT7VeWDHxT8mp1Yy4IFAxXR.4t iv3ya3wu06_jpXLyFWB9r2AIpmbN59HpFPuiNtwpT3PqYkg62lODU2y.MaWeemHwbkfwWp7bxrJb 8fAVfH32leqvKIiWY2U37eT0GGpTuJneVlf6w..K.5Y71xQD_nPqHbSuyTe4l1chEzp8a7JLfvzW VG_.PwlXIUTvoL8QfhKLwbSLmi3alNPrOPL3lquaO01kcHEhCKjlZ370hupBnwSa9djjkMfSCYOG Xkc5zQIy8JdRvtVyzKvi5.zGl5uCIFiB0dMZKBQp8txlZ9_EGOzVXphw0tnViWXaK23Fj6708vNh kGsIjA8WKJ8rndXvACixBeLRpNm_3KTiBLA_4FKsaKtuaQRcUAJmmHl7lVMTwlnt7vBPFBy6nt5i XJWRVKSHyYwQvNNGKm3FI.T1qoGiFdn.V8C8Wl_ESjq6xhTGWA.LD7noYN1sinziImBe1BnYCRQe efSv7m6mqPf4DWm6l3cfyMvHYgJVXQQY6WZXthDKt9BEOhr.QqCb4o9koCL5Azjgv89aN6i9xA4S 9aJYvtBtbLldEb_x_xFVkLCXEk2egfILxn9a7CouQWyu2E8rToNr0V6AnUpLUHRAarGY0t5qwVjJ Lu4qH9pje4Klq4Xim9.GixXe_9WQnmiqeXsKY6Wm2GUBvkq.7Ej0zamD8Z2x19HXz0o3r2MNMUh3 b4LmRvwyWPOnYzf929rgJoT9BTsdmnrO9FGjWqiFnyb3MVuyC Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:31:33 +0000 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:31:28 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Perkins To: Fred Baker , Eliot Lear , Alp Toker Cc: Corinne Cath , Ted Lemon , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7845832_555215592.1537389088060" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12406 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:62.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/62.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:31:36 -0000 ------=_Part_7845832_555215592.1537389088060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Totally agree that such terms should be changed BUT also agree that there = should be a correct process - the call to poll ISOC Chapters re problematic= terminology is an excellent idea Mark P. On Thursday, September 20, 2018, 7:02:08 AM GMT+11, Alp Toker wrote: =20 =20 On 19/09/2018 03:34, Fred Baker wrote: >> >> I think Fred's point is that we are shadowboxing. >=20 > Hello from Denver, en route home. Yes. The topic of the list is human rig= hts in protocol design. My point is that this is extremely hypothetical, an= d no instance of a specific human being with a specific human right has bee= n shown to be affected. Niels and Ted have mentioned theoretical people tha= t in theory could be, but not people who have, and rights that could in the= ory have been tested, but none which actually have. I=E2=80=99m asking =E2= =80=9Cwhere=E2=80=99s the beef?=E2=80=9D=20 >=20 > We=E2=80=99re shadow boxing. I share Fred's concerns on this one. As an RG, the prerogative of this list is to produce research that establishes facts and advises the direction of protocol design in the framework of human rights. Bike-shedding and second guessing the priorities of under-represented communities doesn't do much good, indeed there's plenty of evidence that such discussions actually deny the agency of those groups (a phenomenon I can vouch for through personal experience). Members of this list have access to diverse technical/academic networks. ISOC has over 110 active Chapters across six continents. These would make good starting points for a consultation. Perhaps there are more terms that are offensive - or perhaps these aren't the ones, or perhaps the priorities are different altogether. We should hear those voices. If terms like whitelist/blacklist are offensive to engineers across the world, that's a good sign that it is time for change. A. > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --=20 https://netblocks.org @atoker @netblocks _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_7845832_555215592.1537389088060 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Totally agree that such terms should be changed BUT also agree= that there should be a correct process - the call to poll ISOC Chapters re= problematic terminology is an excellent idea

Mark= P.

=20
=20
On Thursday, September 20, 2018, 7:02:08 AM GMT+11, Alp= Toker <alp@netblocks.org> wrote:


On 19/09/2018 03:34, Fred Baker wrote= :
>>
>> I think Fred's poin= t is that we are shadowboxing.
>
&g= t; Hello from Denver, en route home. Yes. The topic of the list is human ri= ghts in protocol design. My point is that this is extremely hypothetical, a= nd no instance of a specific human being with a specific human right has be= en shown to be affected. Niels and Ted have mentioned theoretical people th= at in theory could be, but not people who have, and rights that could in th= eory have been tested, but none which actually have. I=E2=80=99m asking =E2= =80=9Cwhere=E2=80=99s the beef?=E2=80=9D
>
> We=E2=80=99re shadow boxing.


I share Fred's concerns on this one.

As an RG, the prerogative of this list is to produc= e research that
establishes facts and advises the directi= on of protocol design in the
framework of human rights.
Bike-shedding and second guessing the p= riorities of under-represented
communities doesn't do muc= h good, indeed there's plenty of evidence that
such discu= ssions actually deny the agency of those groups (a phenomenon
I can vouch for through personal experience).

Members of this list have access to diverse technical/academic= networks.
ISOC has over 110 active Chapters across six c= ontinents. These would
make good starting points for a co= nsultation. Perhaps there are more
terms that are offensi= ve - or perhaps these aren't the ones, or perhaps
the pri= orities are different altogether. We should hear those voices.

If terms like whitelist/blacklist are offensive to= engineers across the
world, that's a good sign that it i= s time for change.

A.



> ___________= ____________________________________
> hrpc mailing li= st
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>

--
https://netblock= s.org
@atoker @netblocks


___________________= ____________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://w= ww.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
------=_Part_7845832_555215592.1537389088060-- From nobody Wed Sep 19 17:34:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B95130DFF for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:34:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tsQSBwON009e for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls6.std.com [192.74.137.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66B68124C04 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8K0XGQu015647; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:33:18 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8K0XB7m022082; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:33:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:33:11 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Nalini J Elkins Cc: Hrpc In-Reply-To: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 00:34:16 -0000 I'll suggest that something needed in your breakdown is the ability of end-users to filter content as they see fit and how that can be facilitated. Protocols which for example enable tagging of content and thus facilitate endpoint filtering are very different from external actors (govt, companies) filtering. And how do we determine which, end point or external, is superior. This is implied by your "end-to-end principle" section but begs more explicit analysis. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Wed Sep 19 18:51:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 532FF12D7EA for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 18:51:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tlKwwleFt4Aw for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 18:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-xc36.google.com (mail-yw1-xc36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5603F128C65 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 18:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-xc36.google.com with SMTP id y134-v6so3138942ywg.1 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 18:50:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=sQ2JYSvo0qLAyP+FtXanWGwXR+BviogxI7H5bdndfpM=; b=T1jm6dYo4yoB2EttsB4hUMkpajHlWnp0R57lbjFJXPtBx23PoZDvqJsnFOBKRbzPTj 3DC5P4cxQGksR5Z0Nwtrx0FWZaLHGwxnwjD+8IG4R1MIWlK/Vptc7ibDt95JFD+fbDPU cM2YkbAwpQVqkPmcLIrVM37048jdOtmhuromCWOARvCepUJbpMeXm6Ce9iGFi0iC1Bsr //rUfCYB6dwNbDnbgHlEfcYVwgAyB6r6Q9CufnNNBWBZOMzdlxuvMGaKv9Tf3nwnVSoN 2UYxhs+u3BZuTQyWhjQeZK/0FfeomxuV9A++tSq1EQ8qnLrkKmvab8tUrzxtWO6M3MtC BlRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=sQ2JYSvo0qLAyP+FtXanWGwXR+BviogxI7H5bdndfpM=; b=h2fBPaWrAfnl2QRDCKTZ2e6Np3bbc8p83xOJnSJDEGCLrS3OKozHjStJTEkmDE2Qs5 gqUbu+38BE0jyNmhf4AP90xiPzkJFDM//AigDUYmcGivx07jTuhM4i88WSnE1057cF3g tCVB6B76fUMnP5Gvc1TU7pGkNBesVUNR8iTpBun2O/FMgevTpSuuqiRKFpRLNREX80is c9I3FpNAnJvP/hDkDRcSXP851wQy3AJHb8+DIEjPvdLBZ+ikqDNX0MPhzGrY6KpVJy9a njIECQVCURg+9SoFJZDNML5t5oqljFOxmLDwgNzK1Nij/ARWhyN1olk424gfw6UuFAc7 o1gA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51DMonJ6w6wHJJDlXc/yYvgxD9R+zsJGljPakn0GShrjgAQ4Pccy lja+FHJs7JNk9XqW9kqVELWTeg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdaxgFg28+FkTh5KED7sL9Z0xR8CiNeGDLRh04bAZOoKnGZMDGFFuNYV2vT4oQPc2FynYVcPcw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:2ec6:: with SMTP id u189-v6mr16626018ywu.391.1537408258237; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 18:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-167-89-221.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.89.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d185-v6sm2554272ywf.100.2018.09.19.18.50.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Sep 2018 18:50:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7B126049-5573-4FBD-99AB-6AD1BB64FBD4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:50:55 -0400 In-Reply-To: <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> Cc: Fred Baker , Eliot Lear , Alp Toker , Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever To: Mark Perkins References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 01:51:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7B126049-5573-4FBD-99AB-6AD1BB64FBD4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 19, 2018, at 4:31 PM, Mark Perkins wrote > Totally agree that such terms should be changed BUT also agree that = there should be a correct process - the call to poll ISOC Chapters re = problematic terminology is an excellent idea I don't think ISOC has a pony in this race. The reason for HRPC to = work on this, if there is one, is to present a recommendation to the = IETF to act on (or not). --Apple-Mail=_7B126049-5573-4FBD-99AB-6AD1BB64FBD4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Sep 19, 2018, at 4:31 PM, Mark Perkins <marknoumea@yahoo.com> wrote
Totally agree that such terms should = be changed BUT also agree that there should be a correct process - the = call to poll ISOC Chapters re problematic terminology is an excellent = idea

I don't think = ISOC has a pony in this race.   The reason for HRPC to work on = this, if there is one, is to present a recommendation to the IETF to act = on (or not).


= --Apple-Mail=_7B126049-5573-4FBD-99AB-6AD1BB64FBD4-- From nobody Wed Sep 19 22:24:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF702130E4D for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 22:24:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EP-d7PwP_PpT for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 22:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic313-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic313-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.133.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BB47130E3B for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 22:24:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537421075; bh=uLCbUeko7n0fbWlHTnUV1AcMiiSKjne4E5T1+7nSkB4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=S5M5yqttKG5U25y810zNHe03vC8paLk72y0nk8cpfFQTayZ8uSiyNhq9jNpoli/VVDIL8C+DDl27vsuSNa3P1fZQ5D5Zxk2DqzjgocZO25DAfX/HD0ZRCzENXB4eT2bkP50wp762vLl+Te2YxLpSfluaBe5g+D3CTv2RyYU1PBaGBdfkq6x01nl01TgAL0pQ5Mg4A5Hnp5GjmHbMR7QMvtGaU0Z5sKwC5VDaVLHO9LjrdILLi/EHAf2r+L7pP9m4UdJU28GotgVHHqXGTytahiWxprVlaODXzeqKJNI+l/HpbhOvKWfasTSIdNiAbK08C6r78wo9y18FvsA9Hnt75g== X-YMail-OSG: 36uL90cVM1lBRtfoaBpYx19Yzw32vpPh.Yaxtye5KCduoDNbUWwLmUEHti7cK1v 8xRUNOhh8.WzFbxseUAbMFBiX_ObCGA7GRJgl10vYJIdHrGErwQa1EycMCLHTUNabVAudtZpcMNg Bv6OxjSkMvfM7WoiBybpH3RMO2Bu7JZJyZBPymL787E4IrqrIp5k9oylbMRX1S9CP6trk5a9CJPT 2lLB93K9VB0Db4b8S5RmNtxWlrqjgXgBv6lxhkuAl7ii4f45bGRX.z1j8p6hWV7jat2RVQ1quyGv XnNQJj8joI1CDYsIUSOVdJSqCX8lfX3h8z.GMi5wP1ymYZxNDPzhg63mdwJB3dbnwznWnVOkEtmC C9TclV2RjEBzvP5Wv4f8UeKNhwroBDawHhpYnkVFBJthy3kVaBmYGZgwoF8R9OXu6WpwpxMQ4stF K0YemdiRIJjcJBxJt9V3R2H9EYCoF5w_PM1l.oeVdrz.umovJWKp1qTWsR.3ReWjYoYL1XrWKmP2 OCdOcwIEtcnPaXSiLLkvGqjEG3JRXx9F6889fWu9b2p_MDFGJV_4xk1fEKx2JLXyRjo0eT5aW2zY MWgsjlk1btX6LoWdXduqnHCyHS.d9C8Y1zW1jzfDz.myzCPekgo.PI28FNLT68WgOraL.AoJKBW7 D.7G8Tmmw1HtA_zW6g.qgtpor.RXtReEL90EKJvPQUsr_cNMGS6Sxmxe4LIwPeZlX.Qs4Ba8cMbI .rHBcJ6QQ9L2ZXo7YyxGDbRLdn_zQCDV.UYkUzFVZWr3.bNPWpV0BnHV2wH5YG8yHw6ZSikGLs3c CRIOJyRQdqrviGT.IBWP.5Q_9Gcyh4BCXzby1Msl_MJTRiKD5aamaxJ.AgWDIlOIgcUmjf.oMk8i q7JkgLgs_w9sgn2XD9sfhBlcxsoK2xxUKdB_QJ6J.GDbcfFG7CgzD0cfVSCvrr4KDCc6TB.z9u5a 983fWcCuxZUYLwQMYII4IDvtPmLmSW.9Rdgys4K0- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 05:24:35 +0000 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 05:24:32 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Perkins To: Ted Lemon Cc: Eliot Lear , Fred Baker , Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever , Alp Toker Message-ID: <45632038.185213.1537421073005@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_185212_1019369146.1537421073003" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12473 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:62.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/62.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 05:24:38 -0000 ------=_Part_185212_1019369146.1537421073003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted The point was to use ISOC Chapters as a sample group to do some research on= the question of problematic protocol terminology, NOT to give them a 'pony= ' as you put it ;) Mark P. On Thursday, September 20, 2018, 12:51:11 PM GMT+11, Ted Lemon wrote: =20 =20 On Sep 19, 2018, at 4:31 PM, Mark Perkins wrote Totally agree that such terms should be changed BUT also agree that there s= hould be a correct process - the call to poll ISOC Chapters re problematic = terminology is an excellent idea I don't think ISOC has a pony in this race. =C2=A0 The reason for HRPC to w= ork on this, if there is one, is to present a recommendation to the IETF to= act on (or not). _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_185212_1019369146.1537421073003 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ted

The point was to use ISOC Chapter= s as a sample group to do some research on the question of problematic prot= ocol terminology, NOT to give them a 'pony' as you put it ;)

=
Mark P.

=20
=20
On Thursday, September 20, 2018, 12:51:11 PM GMT+11, Te= d Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:


On Sep 19, 2018, at 4:3= 1 PM, Mark Perkins <marknoumea@yahoo.com> wrote

Totally agree that such terms should be changed BUT also agree that t= here should be a correct process - the call to poll ISOC Chapters re proble= matic terminology is an excellent idea

I don't think ISOC has a po= ny in this race.   The reason for HRPC to work on this, if there is on= e, is to present a recommendation to the IETF to act on (or not).
<= br class=3D"yiv6617047042" clear=3D"none">

_______________________________________________
hrp= c mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
= https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
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Thu, 20 Sep 2018 11:31:07 +0200 To: Mark Nottingham , Ted Lemon Cc: Alp Toker , Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Eliot Lear , Fred Baker References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <46b85f87-7ab4-b0a5-b178-120e5cf2d45c@nielstenoever.net> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 11:31:05 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: d58e29c6f4e42f76447094ef3ccb23d2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 09:31:15 -0000 On 09/19/2018 10:24 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > That's interesting. I've seen several projects where moving away from these terms is utterly uncontroversial. > > Suggestion: I think this should be a discussion on ietf@, if people want to pursue it. Even if we were able to get consensus here (and some people seem to be arguing that it's out of scope), HRPC doesn't set policy for terminology at the IETF. > > Cheers, > > P.S. FWIW - I'm surprised that people are putting so much energy into stopping this. > > I agreed with Marks assessment and posted the following to ietf@ietf.org, maybe we can continue the discussion there. Best, Niels -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Diversity and offensive terminology in RFCs Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 11:25:58 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: ietf@ietf.org Hi all, On the hrpc-list [0] there has been an intense conversation which was spurred by the news that the Python community removed Master/Slave terminology from its programming language [1]. In the discussion that followed it was remarked that in RFCs terms like Master/Slave, blacklist/whitelist, man-in-middle, and other terminology that is offensive to some people and groups is quite common. This is not a discussion that can be resolved in hrpc, but rather should be dealt with in the IETF community (because hrpc doesn't make policy for terminology in the IETF), which is why I am posting this here. If people find the discussion worthwhile, we might also be just in time to request a BoF on this topic. Looking forward to discuss. Best, Niels [0] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/hrpc/ [1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8x7akv/masterslave-terminology-was-removed-from-python-programming-language -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Thu Sep 20 03:47:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60AA8130DCF for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 03:47:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B_gkI6awGBHF for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 03:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic310-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic310-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.186.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6653B127133 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 03:47:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537440444; bh=1j7inTehj4aYgUwwyKJcpxFJwYrqCHcCGtbc0NjoQUA=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=FFU8N5ueiq67Q3cxgujwkKtWgeGPwrSMbbw6dxdZ2RKavEccpCSBRWUZyMYaaoI54cGXczpF9JB7duFCizYFJMfs0KVxm8Q0pOimnXrcn66gwWuqD1suetiKlFMlbDOSxhHvnV7Ct2EiGBTiAUWsvhcIng8+A2xibw5RPlCwd0F3eJS7RInR+mOty/w4WShJrdJRu5jIPIqAfuB4CIddGqztxrSDFUZX1Q1s6+nAgBduKq8/0exSW6nJ9s2bpW1qYYAm4Rdu2W6tS8Wzh2QevnVEZaLarBE7Am1XCFvpm0CVqVEsXto1QITRCIdkMcoefPWmUr6F3MIMNN6wDERWsA== X-YMail-OSG: MDv9UpIVM1kiNMiP.I9n_29BtOL.K8o.Br1UN9U3yvSQbpAoGJsdENpYhVYIA0V ANpqocabg_MoEV1yV31ZR.s0ZIZqAJ4RVTan.j5ox2yTWUR29a9YZZ66_8riutRXk9witLzb1GRk H9L7vfz18SViqfSGBG_bfA_nMxTT8R7xvebOeHYGRvE8Y1eQnNZizSW7rhPL9YcNM1P9Q1qSo_at L.VVcHGnX7yUxkiCQhuU29hIWM0bcgCdIm8Qmyc7teTNTdJL3z3Fw6v3kzQzgN4_G4.ohIfUoufi RvKYtfNK3ElUkwN40sYRKYeqLEj0QK.7P21a7Moau0z96AJkMOeG9Z90WPt2dWN7B3CLJpQNmlF4 wz6GBPXmyxdqTazYxmGoqUQfS8_xPx_f74BLcU8fd6Ke1CtmoZdfE0SuaaEQsKShjoPAtakVVmwU aJq0we1v_EI_7GtvPrGLc50RQxCuWZGR1yO32neF8o_0NXIUAE1WkgHJkkKoPnsxbdRTkkMImO2Y Nok1Yn7yLpgyg3.b.ZO0L9RWMDumiJvPDcnlMkgvdgC3zo_WzexaApJOh3acoHq127yAVSVz.Jk6 Aau7ypbNeCoR0R9a4Szq4nH4i_N6VQW.wvDntZcsF5uOTf8mtUaBGyCODEpI0I6grraJc6NLrxO6 lSqbqfOjOGfhskjhO4kbZLZM7cH5D6nll26lMY_DAbQhRt4NhRCtwscjnyOwjaBSijhhQ0AaPaWo HbUFd8_T61rEWxSAHltiF6Ex9zXPbOSXAewi.pHs2kfuiU1M4eoL8OcCVjxUMQGbf.NDeS2N3fz2 TcWui3Yp.I7qY2HAAGCH2Lf3Oepz8EM3CXE8OtgzGX9r1FPdxqPtWSXvvuaJI62NKZl1eYddrT3e WYYQCjxcS3IifHSf5goA9QkA5oMCMl62F.ipRcyRF3KyJW8NepC8J3MDw7hLocl.eFpBhEMbI0zP nJJKHxpfNGg.ggMd8n8J.PGGBbVFjCiakhbTVji20DY5rYX.I5et0ClbVFcbFZsSLlYba Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:47:24 +0000 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:46:52 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: "bzs@theworld.com" Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_234434_651651998.1537440412952" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12473 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:47:29 -0000 ------=_Part_234434_651651998.1537440412952 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barry, >I'll suggest that something needed in your breakdown is the ability of>end= -users to filter content as they see fit and how that can be>facilitated. >Protocols which for example enable tagging of content and thus>facilitate = endpoint filtering are very different from external actors>(govt, companies= ) filtering. >And how do we determine which, end point or external, is superior. >This is implied by your "end-to-end principle" section but begs more>expli= cit analysis. I think this is an interesting area for analysis. But, let me presenta some= what broader picture.=C2=A0 I propose the following: 1.=C2=A0 Some history of content classifications 2.=C2=A0 Who will do it? 3.=C2=A0 How will it be done? 4.=C2=A0 A meta-question: where should this discussion take place? First, let me say that, at least in my opinion, WE MUST TRY TO PRESERVE THE= FREEDOMOF SPEECH FOR POLITICAL DISSIDENTS.=C2=A0 We need to balance their = needs with the need of=C2=A0others for safety.=C2=A0 This is as much selfis= h as anything. I am kind of a loud mouth=C2=A0myself (as you may have gathe= red) and I wish to retain the right to freely speak=C2=A0my political opini= ons, as much as possible. So, let's analyze this problem a bit.=C2=A0 Let me start by apologizing for= how long thispost is.=C2=A0 It is a complex problem with many facets. Section 1.=C2=A0 Some history of content classification The problem of content classification has come up before.=C2=A0 We may look= to the movie=C2=A0industry. People wish to know before they take their chi= ldren to see a particular movieif it has objectional content of some type. Here is the Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_picture_content_rating_system Quoting from that entry: "A motion picture content rating system is designated to classify films wit= h regard to=C2=A0suitability for audiences in terms of issues such as sex, = violence, substance abuse,=C2=A0profanity, impudence or other types of matu= re content. A particular issued rating can be=C2=A0called a certification, = classification, certificate or rating. Ratings typically carry=C2=A0age rec= ommendations in an advisory or restrictive capacity, and are often given in= lieu=C2=A0of censorship. In some jurisdictions the legal obligation of adm= inistering the rating may=C2=A0be imposed on movie theaters."=C2=A0Books, i= n my knowledge (which may be lacking) for instance, are generally not rated= , exceptin the most egregious cases.=C2=A0 One is rather horrified, in fact= , to think of books asbeing rated.=C2=A0 Except to protect children from ex= plicit sexual or violent content.=C2=A0 But,I am speaking as a parent from = a particular cultural background.=C2=A0 YMMV.=C2=A0Just my opinion, but I w= ould like to see only the most offensive cases of Internet contentas having= some type of rating.=C2=A0 Maybe .0001 percent of all content on the Inter= net, something=C2=A0like that.=C2=A0 But, we do not know yet have any speci= fics.=C2=A0 We have no real data to supportany statements. There are, of course, cultural and personal variations on how content is re= garded. Currently,movie ratings are done by nation-states.=C2=A0 More on th= is in the "Who will do this" section. For example, one might conceive of a taxonomy such as: A. Criminal content * Violent offence against people or inciting such (firearms and offensive w= eapons may fall here)=C2=A0* Sexual offences or inciting such=C2=A0* Offenc= es against property (Forgery, impersonation and cheating)=C2=A0* Other dang= erous acts against people (harmful or dangerous drugs, fake pharmaceutical = sites)=C2=A0 B. "Fake content", hate speech, or content aimed at spreading terrorism=C2= =A0 I understand this will be controversial but I think it is an important cate= gory to discuss.This is what apparently caused the killings of the Rohingya= muslims. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/27/facebook-removes-account= s-myanmar-military-un-report-genocide-rohingya It may in the future have more impact.=C2=A0 One might easily imagine a fak= e video with Mr. Trump declaring=C2=A0war on [North Korea / China / Canada]= .=C2=A0 This is likely to cause disruption. I understand that Facebook, as well as a number of academic institutions, a= re already working in thespace of trying to detect fake content. C.=C2=A0 Content which is intentionally addictive Governments often feel compelled to step in with regulation for things whic= h cause addiction to their populace.=C2=A0In the past, it was narcotics.=C2= =A0 From the Wikipedia entry on the First Opium War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War "In the 17th and 18th centuries, the demand for Chinese goods (particularly= silk, porcelain, and tea) in=C2=A0Europe created a trade imbalance between= Qing Imperial China and Great Britain. European silver flowed=C2=A0into Ch= ina through the Canton System, which confined incoming foreign trade to the= southern port city of=C2=A0Canton. To counter this imbalance, the British = East India Company began to auction opium grown in Indiato independent fore= ign traders in exchange for silver, and in doing so strengthened its tradin= g influence=C2=A0in Asia. This opium was transported to the Chinese coast, = where local middlemen made massive profits=C2=A0selling the drug inside Chi= na. The influx of narcotics reversed the Chinese trade surplus, drained the= =C2=A0economy of silver, and increased the numbers of opium addicts inside = the country, outcomes that worried=C2=A0Chinese officials." The Chinese government took action.=C2=A0 You may be familiar with what hap= pened. Some feel that some content on the Internet, particularly on mobile phones,= particularly on some platforms,is intentionally formulated to be addictive= .=C2=A0 Some call this the "Dopamine economy". One might expect to see regulation in this area. D.=C2=A0 Content about a specific person subject to the "Right to be forgot= ten".=C2=A0 As I understand, it is extremelydifficult to actually comply to= this regulation.=C2=A0 You may wish to read an interesting book on thistop= ic "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_You%27ve_Been_Publicly_Shamed E.=C2=A0 This is not an exhaustive taxonomy.=C2=A0 I wonder if we need a gr= oup of people to collaborate on=C2=A0developing a taxonomy and have an open= discussion in some forum.=C2=A0 I do not know where that forum should be.S= hould it be at the IETF?=C2=A0 Should it be in another SDO?=C2=A0 Should it= be in a new group sponsored byISOC? I think it is likely premature to discuss that before we have more of a fee= l of the boundaries of this=C2=A0problem. I do believe, though, that there are implications for protocols.=C2=A0 As i= n, if a classification system isdeveloped, then IETF protocols should respe= ct that classification.=C2=A0 How this will play out, I do not know. Section 2.=C2=A0 Who will do this? A.=C2=A0 For the movie industry, it varies.=C2=A0 Again from the Wikipedia = entry: "In countries such as Australia and Singapore, an official government body = decides on ratings; in other=C2=A0countries, such as the United States, it = is done by industry committees with little if any official=C2=A0government = status. In most countries, however, films that are considered morally offen= sive have been=C2=A0censored, restricted, or banned. Even if the film ratin= g system has no legal consequences, and a film=C2=A0has not explicitly been= restricted or banned, there are usually laws forbidding certain films, or = forbiddingminors to view them." Where the analogy between movie content and Internet breaks down is in the = level of impact. (No analogyis perfect.)=C2=A0 The impact of Internet conte= nt appears to have a much greater level of potential harmthan most movies.= =C2=A0 People can actually get killed by unfortunate Internet content. B. As I said before in another (overly lengthy post) today, there are de-fa= cto efforts by content=C2=A0providers: Facebook, Twitter, Google (YouTube) = to self-censor. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45495544 To quote from that article: "In 2017, Google said it would dedicate more than 10,000 staff to rooting o= ut violent extremist contenton YouTube=C2=A0 YouTube said staff had viewed nearly two million videos for violent extremi= sm from June to December 2017=C2=A0 YouTube said more than 98% of such material was flagged automatically, with= more than 50% of the videos=C2=A0removed having fewer than 10 views=C2=A0 Industry members have worked together since 2015 to create a database of "d= igital fingerprints" of=C2=A0previously identified content to better detect= extremist material. As of December 2017, it contained=C2=A0more than 40,00= 0 such "hashes"=C2=A0 in 2017, Facebook claimed that 99% of all Islamic State and al Qaeda-relate= d content was removed before=C2=A0users had flagged it. The social network = said that 83% of the remaining content was identified and removed=C2=A0with= in an hour=C2=A0 between August 2015 and December 2017, Twitter said that it had suspended m= ore than 1.2 million accounts=C2=A0in its fight to stop the spread of extre= mist propaganda. It said that 93% were flagged by internal tools,=C2=A0with= 74% suspended before their first tweet."=C2=A0 C. The UK government has also been working in this area.=C2=A0 They want to= help the smaller social media platformsand content providers. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-technology-revealed-to-help-fight-te= rrorist-content-online To quote from the article: "The Home Office has today announced the development of new technology to a= utomatically detect terrorist=C2=A0content on any online platforms." This technology can be used by social media platforms who are NOT FB, Twitt= er, and YouTube. D.=C2=A0 One option we have is to simply rely on governments and content pr= oviders to police content accordingto the needs they see fit.=C2=A0 This ha= s the merit of simplicity.=C2=A0 None of us really have to do anythingbut s= it back and watch.=C2=A0 This is somewhat compelling as I suspect we all pr= efer to do actual protocoldesign.=C2=A0 But, the problem is likely to come when there is a conflict with a protocol= specification by the IETFand a government regulation.=C2=A0 It is also lik= ely to move governments to reach into lower and lower levelsof the protocol= stack to regulate.=C2=A0 It may be a good idea to work together with regul= ators / governmentto think over these issues. Section 3: How will it be done? This is an area where protocol design is most directly affected. There are at least four types of content: (I am sure you can think of more) - standalone web sites- content on some platform (social media, YouTube, Sn= apChat, etc)- email- forums for discussion I suspect that the content filtering we are talking of is for the first two= . A. Today, some filtering of content (parental controls) for standalone web = sites is done by DNS proxies (as I=C2=A0understand from talking to one ISP)= .=C2=A0 I suspect that this may come into conflict with DNS over HTTPS. B. Filtering of content on platforms is done by self-censorship.=C2=A0 Is t= his OK? C. Some have suggested a tag for web sites.=C2=A0 If done, this should be r= espected by IETF protocols.=C2=A0 Thereis a question of who should do this?= =C2=A0 Should it be directives by some SDO to search engines? D. To quote from one of Vittorio's posts: "[We] have at least three possible cases:=C2=A0 - content control that the user wants (e.g., parental control mechanisms, a= d removal, or security filters)=C2=A0- content control that the user does n= ot want, but is mandated and made legitimate by applicable real-world=C2=A0= sovereignty features (e.g. governmental site blocking)=C2=A0- content cont= rol that the user does not want and is not mandated or even allowed by law,= but still is being=C2=A0 done by third parties for commercial reasons (e.g= . violations of net neutrality, traffic analysis and monetization etc.)=C2= =A0 Clearly, there is a potential tension between these. Section 4: The Meta Issue: Where should this discussion take place? I, for one, think that this is probably one of the most important issues fa= cing us today.=C2=A0 As you might=C2=A0deduce from my extremely lengthy (so= rry!) posts. I am quite happy to move this discussion to the ietf@ietf.org email list. O= r even to stop talking aboutthis altogether and approach another SDO (ETSI,= ITU) to see if they are interested in this topic. I believe that this issue has protocol implications and would like to see t= his discussion take placeat the IETF (or ISOC) somewhere.=C2=A0 But, I pose= the question to the community to decide. =C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 ------=_Part_234434_651651998.1537440412952 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Barry,

>I'll suggest that something needed in yo= ur breakdown is the ability of
>end-users to filter content as they see fit and how that can = be
>facilitated.

>Protocols which for example enable tagging of content and thus
>facilitate endpoint= filtering are very different from external actors
>(govt, companies) filtering.

>A= nd how do we determine which, end point or external, is superior.

&g= t;This is implied by your "end-to-end principle" section but begs more
>explicit analysis.


I think this is an interesting area for an= alysis. But, let me present
a somewhat broader picture.  I propose the following:

1.=   Some history of content classifications

<= /div>
2.  Who will do = it?

3.  How will it be done?

<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537439655437_6394">4.  A meta-question: w= here should this discussion take place?


= First, let me say that, at least in my opinion, WE MUST TRY TO PRESERVE THE= FREEDOM
OF SPEECH FO= R POLITICAL DISSIDENTS.  We need to balance their needs with the need = of 
others for s= afety.  This is as much selfish as anything. I am kind of a loud mouth=  
myself (as you= may have gathered) and I wish to retain the right to freely speak 
my political opinions, = as much as possible.
=
So, let's analyze this problem a bit.  Let= me start by apologizing for how long this
post is.  It is a complex problem with many face= ts.


Section 1.  Some history of con= tent classification
<= br id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537439655437_6414">
The problem of content classification has come u= p before.  We may look to the movie 
industry. People wish to know before they take th= eir children to see a particular movie
if it has objectional content of some type.

Here = is the Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_picture= _content_rating_system

Quoting from that entry:

"A motion pic= ture content rating system is designated to classify films with regard to&n= bsp;
suitability for = audiences in terms of issues such as sex, violence, substance abuse, <= /div>
profanity, impudence = or other types of mature content. A particular issued rating can be 
called a certification= , classification, certificate or rating. Ratings typically carry 
age recommendations in an= advisory or restrictive capacity, and are often given in lieu 
<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537439655437_6434">of censorship. In some juri= sdictions the legal obligation of administering the rating may 
<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537439655437_6435">be imposed on movie theater= s."
 
Books, in my knowledge (which m= ay be lacking) for instance, are generally not rated, except
in the most egregious cases. = ; One is rather horrified, in fact, to think of books as
being rated.  Except to protect ch= ildren from explicit sexual or violent content.  But,
I am speaking as a parent from a part= icular cultural background.  YMMV.
 
Just my opinion, but I would like to see only the most offensive cases= of Internet content
= as having some type of rating.  Maybe .0001 percent of all content on = the Internet, something 
like that.  But, we do not know yet have any specifics. = We have no real data to support
any statements.

There are, of course, cultural and perso= nal variations on how content is regarded. Currently,
movie ratings are done by nation-states.&n= bsp; More on this in the "Who will do this" section.

For example, on= e might conceive of a taxonomy such as:

A. Criminal content

*= Violent offence against people or inciting such (firearms and offensive we= apons may fall here) 
* Sexual offences or inciting such 
* Offences against property (Forgery, impersonati= on and cheating) 
* Other dangerous acts against people (harmful or dangerous drugs, fake p= harmaceutical sites) 


B. "Fake cont= ent", hate speech, or content aimed at spreading terrorism 

I u= nderstand this will be controversial but I think it is an important categor= y to discuss.
This is= what apparently caused the killings of the Rohingya muslims.

https= ://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/27/facebook-removes-accounts-mya= nmar-military-un-report-genocide-rohingya

=
It may in the future have = more impact.  One might easily imagine a fake video with Mr. Trump dec= laring 
war on [= North Korea / China / Canada].  This is likely to cause disruption.

I understand that Facebook, as well as a number of academic institutio= ns, are already working in the
space of trying to detect fake content.


C.  Content which is intentionally addictive

Governme= nts often feel compelled to step in with regulation for things which cause = addiction to their populace. 
In the past, it was narcotics.  From the Wikipedia entry= on the First Opium War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_W= ar

"In the 17th and 18th centuries, the demand for Chinese goods (pa= rticularly silk, porcelain, and tea) in 
Europe created a trade imbalance between Qing Impe= rial China and Great Britain. European silver flowed 
into China through the Canton System,= which confined incoming foreign trade to the southern port city of 
Canton. To counter thi= s imbalance, the British East India Company began to auction opium grown in= India
to independent= foreign traders in exchange for silver, and in doing so strengthened its t= rading influence 
in Asia. This opium was transported to the Chinese coast, where local mid= dlemen made massive profits 
selling the drug inside China. The influx of narcotics reverse= d the Chinese trade surplus, drained the 
economy of silver, and increased the numbers of o= pium addicts inside the country, outcomes that worried 
Chinese officials."

The C= hinese government took action.  You may be familiar with what happened= .

Some feel that some content on the Internet, particularly on mobil= e phones, particularly on some platforms,
is intentionally formulated to be addictive.  Som= e call this the "Dopamine economy".

One might expect to see regulati= on in this area.


D.  Content about = a specific person subject to the "Right to be forgotten".  As I unders= tand, it is extremely
difficult to actually comply to this regulation.  You may wish to rea= d an interesting book on this
topic "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson.

https= ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_You%27ve_Been_Publicly_Shamed


E.  This is not an exhaustive taxonomy.  I wond= er if we need a group of people to collaborate on 
developing a taxonomy and have an open d= iscussion in some forum.  I do not know where that forum should be.
Should it be at the IET= F?  Should it be in another SDO?  Should it be in a new group spo= nsored by
ISOC?
=

I think it is likely premature to discuss that before we have more of a f= eel of the boundaries of this 
problem.

I do believe, though, that there are implica= tions for protocols.  As in, if a classification system is
developed, then IETF protocols s= hould respect that classification.  How this will play out, I do not k= now.


Section 2.  Who will do this= ?

A.  For the movie industry, it varies.  Again from the W= ikipedia entry:

"In countries such as Australia and Singapore, an of= ficial government body decides on ratings; in other 
countries, such as the United States, = it is done by industry committees with little if any official 
government status. In most c= ountries, however, films that are considered morally offensive have been&nb= sp;
censored, restric= ted, or banned. Even if the film rating system has no legal consequences, a= nd a film 
has n= ot explicitly been restricted or banned, there are usually laws forbidding = certain films, or forbidding
minors to view them."

Where the analogy between movie conten= t and Internet breaks down is in the level of impact. (No analogy
is perfect.)  The impact = of Internet content appears to have a much greater level of potential harm<= /div>
than most movies.&nbs= p; People can actually get killed by unfortunate Internet content.

<= br id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537439655437_6565">
B. As I said before in another (overly lengthy p= ost) today, there are de-facto efforts by content 
providers: Facebook, Twitter, Google (Yo= uTube) to self-censor.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45495544<= /div>

To quote from that article:

"In 2017, Google said it would de= dicate more than 10,000 staff to rooting out violent extremist content
on YouTube 

Y= ouTube said staff had viewed nearly two million videos for violent extremis= m from June to December 2017 

YouTube said more than 98% of suc= h material was flagged automatically, with more than 50% of the videos = ;
removed having fewe= r than 10 views 

Industry members have worked together since 20= 15 to create a database of "digital fingerprints" of 
previously identified content to bett= er detect extremist material. As of December 2017, it contained 
=
more than 40,000 such "has= hes" 

in 2017, Facebook claimed that 99% of all Islamic State a= nd al Qaeda-related content was removed before 
users had flagged it. The social network sa= id that 83% of the remaining content was identified and removed 
=
within an hour 
=

between August 2015 and December 2017, Twitter said that it had suspended= more than 1.2 million accounts 
in its fight to stop the spread of extremist propaganda. I= t said that 93% were flagged by internal tools, 
with 74% suspended before their first twee= t." 


C. The UK government has also = been working in this area.  They want to help the smaller social media= platforms
and conten= t providers.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-technology-rev= ealed-to-help-fight-terrorist-content-online

To quote from the artic= le:

"The Home Office has today announced the development of new tech= nology to automatically detect terrorist 
content on any online platforms."

This tec= hnology can be used by social media platforms who are NOT FB, Twitter, and = YouTube.


D.  One option we have is = to simply rely on governments and content providers to police content accor= ding
to the needs the= y see fit.  This has the merit of simplicity.  None of us really = have to do anything
b= ut sit back and watch.  This is somewhat compelling as I suspect we al= l prefer to do actual protocol
design. 

But, the problem is likely to come when ther= e is a conflict with a protocol specification by the IETF
and a government regulation.  It = is also likely to move governments to reach into lower and lower levels
of the protocol stack to= regulate.  It may be a good idea to work together with regulators / g= overnment
to think ov= er these issues.


Section 3: How will it = be done?

This is an area where protocol design is most directly affe= cted.

There are at least four types of content: (I am sure you can t= hink of more)

- standalone web sites
- content on some platform (social media, YouTube, = SnapChat, etc)
- emai= l
- forums for discus= sion

I suspect that the content filtering we are talking of is for t= he first two.


A. Today, some filtering = of content (parental controls) for standalone web sites is done by DNS prox= ies (as I 
under= stand from talking to one ISP).  I suspect that this may come into con= flict with DNS over HTTPS.

B. Filtering of content on platforms is d= one by self-censorship.  Is this OK?

=
C. Some have suggested a t= ag for web sites.  If done, this should be respected by IETF protocols= .  There
is a qu= estion of who should do this?  Should it be directives by some SDO to = search engines?

D. To quote from one of Vittorio's posts:

"[W= e] have at least three possible cases: 

- content control that = the user wants (e.g., parental control mechanisms, ad removal, or security = filters) 
- cont= ent control that the user does not want, but is mandated and made legitimat= e by applicable real-world
  sovereignty features (e.g. governmental site blocking) 
- content control that= the user does not want and is not mandated or even allowed by law, but sti= ll is being
  do= ne by third parties for commercial reasons (e.g. violations of net neutrali= ty, traffic analysis and monetization etc.) 

Clearly, there is = a potential tension between these.


Secti= on 4: The Meta Issue: Where should this discussion take place?

I, fo= r one, think that this is probably one of the most important issues facing = us today.  As you might 
deduce from my extremely lengthy (sorry!) posts.

I am = quite happy to move this discussion to the ietf@ietf.org email list. Or eve= n to stop talking about
this altogether and approach another SDO (ETSI, ITU) to see if they are = interested in this topic.

I believe that this issue has protocol imp= lications and would like to see this discussion take place
at the IETF (or ISOC) somewhere. = ; But, I pose the question to the community to decide.

  
Thanks,
Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insi= dethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

------=_Part_234434_651651998.1537440412952-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 03:48:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18849130E79 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 03:48:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x09QU3SbRPEN for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 03:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic302-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic302-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.186.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35122127133 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 03:48:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537440495; bh=1j7inTehj4aYgUwwyKJcpxFJwYrqCHcCGtbc0NjoQUA=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=pc1pYZXrvhZVECowLSDmIexSNU24rc+VFvq7BQapLwV3JlcYUCE+mK4jvarylHJ/ifxtdJNFNDe8ILz1Li1uMzuHQ62l88yfHVawN2q9Ez9OrAoy3lwqzInda3W/23ZHqt+qVfRu51io+YqFYfI+kJ3GKQc3Mkag3m8BWpvDuTeAEUPe6ql232fSEwppkldoemV7m9e9Ul9vWi1aYbCsypbuPJql0vfBxA5vgaGsGoJfK/Ikojos5AivdE21KyTz7yGWceJxeU5bc426ylsACSU9CWEQLVSlPiK5O5I84BnyuD7scXJzwtT5mcjDS1UEWuv5xrZQQoh9FJM2Ibsnqg== X-YMail-OSG: MDv9UpIVM1kiNMiP.I9n_29BtOL.K8o.Br1UN9U3yvSQbpAoGJsdENpYhVYIA0V ANpqocabg_MoEV1yV31ZR.s0ZIZqAJ4RVTan.j5ox2yTWUR29a9YZZ66_8riutRXk9witLzb1GRk H9L7vfz18SViqfSGBG_bfA_nMxTT8R7xvebOeHYGRvE8Y1eQnNZizSW7rhPL9YcNM1P9Q1qSo_at L.VVcHGnX7yUxkiCQhuU29hIWM0bcgCdIm8Qmyc7teTNTdJL3z3Fw6v3kzQzgN4_G4.ohIfUoufi RvKYtfNK3ElUkwN40sYRKYeqLEj0QK.7P21a7Moau0z96AJkMOeG9Z90WPt2dWN7B3CLJpQNmlF4 wz6GBPXmyxdqTazYxmGoqUQfS8_xPx_f74BLcU8fd6Ke1CtmoZdfE0SuaaEQsKShjoPAtakVVmwU aJq0we1v_EI_7GtvPrGLc50RQxCuWZGR1yO32neF8o_0NXIUAE1WkgHJkkKoPnsxbdRTkkMImO2Y Nok1Yn7yLpgyg3.b.ZO0L9RWMDumiJvPDcnlMkgvdgC3zo_WzexaApJOh3acoHq127yAVSVz.Jk6 Aau7ypbNeCoR0R9a4Szq4nH4i_N6VQW.wvDntZcsF5uOTf8mtUaBGyCODEpI0I6grraJc6NLrxO6 lSqbqfOjOGfhskjhO4kbZLZM7cH5D6nll26lMY_DAbQhRt4NhRCtwscjnyOwjaBSijhhQ0AaPaWo HbUFd8_T61rEWxSAHltiF6Ex9zXPbOSXAewi.pHs2kfuiU1M4eoL8OcCVjxUMQGbf.NDeS2N3fz2 TcWui3Yp.I7qY2HAAGCH2Lf3Oepz8EM3CXE8OtgzGX9r1FPdxqPtWSXvvuaJI62NKZl1eYddrT3e WYYQCjxcS3IifHSf5goA9QkA5oMCMl62F.ipRcyRF3KyJW8NepC8J3MDw7hLocl.eFpBhEMbI0zP nJJKHxpfNGg.ggMd8n8J.PGGBbVFjCiakhbTVji20DY5rYX.I5et0ClbVFcbFZsSLlYba Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:48:15 +0000 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:46:52 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: "bzs@theworld.com" Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_234434_651651998.1537440412952" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12473 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:48:24 -0000 ------=_Part_234434_651651998.1537440412952 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barry, >I'll suggest that something needed in your breakdown is the ability of>end= -users to filter content as they see fit and how that can be>facilitated. >Protocols which for example enable tagging of content and thus>facilitate = endpoint filtering are very different from external actors>(govt, companies= ) filtering. >And how do we determine which, end point or external, is superior. >This is implied by your "end-to-end principle" section but begs more>expli= cit analysis. I think this is an interesting area for analysis. But, let me presenta some= what broader picture.=C2=A0 I propose the following: 1.=C2=A0 Some history of content classifications 2.=C2=A0 Who will do it? 3.=C2=A0 How will it be done? 4.=C2=A0 A meta-question: where should this discussion take place? First, let me say that, at least in my opinion, WE MUST TRY TO PRESERVE THE= FREEDOMOF SPEECH FOR POLITICAL DISSIDENTS.=C2=A0 We need to balance their = needs with the need of=C2=A0others for safety.=C2=A0 This is as much selfis= h as anything. I am kind of a loud mouth=C2=A0myself (as you may have gathe= red) and I wish to retain the right to freely speak=C2=A0my political opini= ons, as much as possible. So, let's analyze this problem a bit.=C2=A0 Let me start by apologizing for= how long thispost is.=C2=A0 It is a complex problem with many facets. Section 1.=C2=A0 Some history of content classification The problem of content classification has come up before.=C2=A0 We may look= to the movie=C2=A0industry. People wish to know before they take their chi= ldren to see a particular movieif it has objectional content of some type. Here is the Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_picture_content_rating_system Quoting from that entry: "A motion picture content rating system is designated to classify films wit= h regard to=C2=A0suitability for audiences in terms of issues such as sex, = violence, substance abuse,=C2=A0profanity, impudence or other types of matu= re content. A particular issued rating can be=C2=A0called a certification, = classification, certificate or rating. Ratings typically carry=C2=A0age rec= ommendations in an advisory or restrictive capacity, and are often given in= lieu=C2=A0of censorship. In some jurisdictions the legal obligation of adm= inistering the rating may=C2=A0be imposed on movie theaters."=C2=A0Books, i= n my knowledge (which may be lacking) for instance, are generally not rated= , exceptin the most egregious cases.=C2=A0 One is rather horrified, in fact= , to think of books asbeing rated.=C2=A0 Except to protect children from ex= plicit sexual or violent content.=C2=A0 But,I am speaking as a parent from = a particular cultural background.=C2=A0 YMMV.=C2=A0Just my opinion, but I w= ould like to see only the most offensive cases of Internet contentas having= some type of rating.=C2=A0 Maybe .0001 percent of all content on the Inter= net, something=C2=A0like that.=C2=A0 But, we do not know yet have any speci= fics.=C2=A0 We have no real data to supportany statements. There are, of course, cultural and personal variations on how content is re= garded. Currently,movie ratings are done by nation-states.=C2=A0 More on th= is in the "Who will do this" section. For example, one might conceive of a taxonomy such as: A. Criminal content * Violent offence against people or inciting such (firearms and offensive w= eapons may fall here)=C2=A0* Sexual offences or inciting such=C2=A0* Offenc= es against property (Forgery, impersonation and cheating)=C2=A0* Other dang= erous acts against people (harmful or dangerous drugs, fake pharmaceutical = sites)=C2=A0 B. "Fake content", hate speech, or content aimed at spreading terrorism=C2= =A0 I understand this will be controversial but I think it is an important cate= gory to discuss.This is what apparently caused the killings of the Rohingya= muslims. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/27/facebook-removes-account= s-myanmar-military-un-report-genocide-rohingya It may in the future have more impact.=C2=A0 One might easily imagine a fak= e video with Mr. Trump declaring=C2=A0war on [North Korea / China / Canada]= .=C2=A0 This is likely to cause disruption. I understand that Facebook, as well as a number of academic institutions, a= re already working in thespace of trying to detect fake content. C.=C2=A0 Content which is intentionally addictive Governments often feel compelled to step in with regulation for things whic= h cause addiction to their populace.=C2=A0In the past, it was narcotics.=C2= =A0 From the Wikipedia entry on the First Opium War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War "In the 17th and 18th centuries, the demand for Chinese goods (particularly= silk, porcelain, and tea) in=C2=A0Europe created a trade imbalance between= Qing Imperial China and Great Britain. European silver flowed=C2=A0into Ch= ina through the Canton System, which confined incoming foreign trade to the= southern port city of=C2=A0Canton. To counter this imbalance, the British = East India Company began to auction opium grown in Indiato independent fore= ign traders in exchange for silver, and in doing so strengthened its tradin= g influence=C2=A0in Asia. This opium was transported to the Chinese coast, = where local middlemen made massive profits=C2=A0selling the drug inside Chi= na. The influx of narcotics reversed the Chinese trade surplus, drained the= =C2=A0economy of silver, and increased the numbers of opium addicts inside = the country, outcomes that worried=C2=A0Chinese officials." The Chinese government took action.=C2=A0 You may be familiar with what hap= pened. Some feel that some content on the Internet, particularly on mobile phones,= particularly on some platforms,is intentionally formulated to be addictive= .=C2=A0 Some call this the "Dopamine economy". One might expect to see regulation in this area. D.=C2=A0 Content about a specific person subject to the "Right to be forgot= ten".=C2=A0 As I understand, it is extremelydifficult to actually comply to= this regulation.=C2=A0 You may wish to read an interesting book on thistop= ic "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_You%27ve_Been_Publicly_Shamed E.=C2=A0 This is not an exhaustive taxonomy.=C2=A0 I wonder if we need a gr= oup of people to collaborate on=C2=A0developing a taxonomy and have an open= discussion in some forum.=C2=A0 I do not know where that forum should be.S= hould it be at the IETF?=C2=A0 Should it be in another SDO?=C2=A0 Should it= be in a new group sponsored byISOC? I think it is likely premature to discuss that before we have more of a fee= l of the boundaries of this=C2=A0problem. I do believe, though, that there are implications for protocols.=C2=A0 As i= n, if a classification system isdeveloped, then IETF protocols should respe= ct that classification.=C2=A0 How this will play out, I do not know. Section 2.=C2=A0 Who will do this? A.=C2=A0 For the movie industry, it varies.=C2=A0 Again from the Wikipedia = entry: "In countries such as Australia and Singapore, an official government body = decides on ratings; in other=C2=A0countries, such as the United States, it = is done by industry committees with little if any official=C2=A0government = status. In most countries, however, films that are considered morally offen= sive have been=C2=A0censored, restricted, or banned. Even if the film ratin= g system has no legal consequences, and a film=C2=A0has not explicitly been= restricted or banned, there are usually laws forbidding certain films, or = forbiddingminors to view them." Where the analogy between movie content and Internet breaks down is in the = level of impact. (No analogyis perfect.)=C2=A0 The impact of Internet conte= nt appears to have a much greater level of potential harmthan most movies.= =C2=A0 People can actually get killed by unfortunate Internet content. B. As I said before in another (overly lengthy post) today, there are de-fa= cto efforts by content=C2=A0providers: Facebook, Twitter, Google (YouTube) = to self-censor. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45495544 To quote from that article: "In 2017, Google said it would dedicate more than 10,000 staff to rooting o= ut violent extremist contenton YouTube=C2=A0 YouTube said staff had viewed nearly two million videos for violent extremi= sm from June to December 2017=C2=A0 YouTube said more than 98% of such material was flagged automatically, with= more than 50% of the videos=C2=A0removed having fewer than 10 views=C2=A0 Industry members have worked together since 2015 to create a database of "d= igital fingerprints" of=C2=A0previously identified content to better detect= extremist material. As of December 2017, it contained=C2=A0more than 40,00= 0 such "hashes"=C2=A0 in 2017, Facebook claimed that 99% of all Islamic State and al Qaeda-relate= d content was removed before=C2=A0users had flagged it. The social network = said that 83% of the remaining content was identified and removed=C2=A0with= in an hour=C2=A0 between August 2015 and December 2017, Twitter said that it had suspended m= ore than 1.2 million accounts=C2=A0in its fight to stop the spread of extre= mist propaganda. It said that 93% were flagged by internal tools,=C2=A0with= 74% suspended before their first tweet."=C2=A0 C. The UK government has also been working in this area.=C2=A0 They want to= help the smaller social media platformsand content providers. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-technology-revealed-to-help-fight-te= rrorist-content-online To quote from the article: "The Home Office has today announced the development of new technology to a= utomatically detect terrorist=C2=A0content on any online platforms." This technology can be used by social media platforms who are NOT FB, Twitt= er, and YouTube. D.=C2=A0 One option we have is to simply rely on governments and content pr= oviders to police content accordingto the needs they see fit.=C2=A0 This ha= s the merit of simplicity.=C2=A0 None of us really have to do anythingbut s= it back and watch.=C2=A0 This is somewhat compelling as I suspect we all pr= efer to do actual protocoldesign.=C2=A0 But, the problem is likely to come when there is a conflict with a protocol= specification by the IETFand a government regulation.=C2=A0 It is also lik= ely to move governments to reach into lower and lower levelsof the protocol= stack to regulate.=C2=A0 It may be a good idea to work together with regul= ators / governmentto think over these issues. Section 3: How will it be done? This is an area where protocol design is most directly affected. There are at least four types of content: (I am sure you can think of more) - standalone web sites- content on some platform (social media, YouTube, Sn= apChat, etc)- email- forums for discussion I suspect that the content filtering we are talking of is for the first two= . A. Today, some filtering of content (parental controls) for standalone web = sites is done by DNS proxies (as I=C2=A0understand from talking to one ISP)= .=C2=A0 I suspect that this may come into conflict with DNS over HTTPS. B. Filtering of content on platforms is done by self-censorship.=C2=A0 Is t= his OK? C. Some have suggested a tag for web sites.=C2=A0 If done, this should be r= espected by IETF protocols.=C2=A0 Thereis a question of who should do this?= =C2=A0 Should it be directives by some SDO to search engines? D. To quote from one of Vittorio's posts: "[We] have at least three possible cases:=C2=A0 - content control that the user wants (e.g., parental control mechanisms, a= d removal, or security filters)=C2=A0- content control that the user does n= ot want, but is mandated and made legitimate by applicable real-world=C2=A0= sovereignty features (e.g. governmental site blocking)=C2=A0- content cont= rol that the user does not want and is not mandated or even allowed by law,= but still is being=C2=A0 done by third parties for commercial reasons (e.g= . violations of net neutrality, traffic analysis and monetization etc.)=C2= =A0 Clearly, there is a potential tension between these. Section 4: The Meta Issue: Where should this discussion take place? I, for one, think that this is probably one of the most important issues fa= cing us today.=C2=A0 As you might=C2=A0deduce from my extremely lengthy (so= rry!) posts. I am quite happy to move this discussion to the ietf@ietf.org email list. O= r even to stop talking aboutthis altogether and approach another SDO (ETSI,= ITU) to see if they are interested in this topic. I believe that this issue has protocol implications and would like to see t= his discussion take placeat the IETF (or ISOC) somewhere.=C2=A0 But, I pose= the question to the community to decide. =C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 ------=_Part_234434_651651998.1537440412952 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Barry,

>I'll suggest that something needed in yo= ur breakdown is the ability of
>end-users to filter content as they see fit and how that can = be
>facilitated.

>Protocols which for example enable tagging of content and thus
>facilitate endpoint= filtering are very different from external actors
>(govt, companies) filtering.

>A= nd how do we determine which, end point or external, is superior.

&g= t;This is implied by your "end-to-end principle" section but begs more
>explicit analysis.


I think this is an interesting area for an= alysis. But, let me present
a somewhat broader picture.  I propose the following:

1.=   Some history of content classifications

<= /div>
2.  Who will do = it?

3.  How will it be done?

<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537439655437_6394">4.  A meta-question: w= here should this discussion take place?


= First, let me say that, at least in my opinion, WE MUST TRY TO PRESERVE THE= FREEDOM
OF SPEECH FO= R POLITICAL DISSIDENTS.  We need to balance their needs with the need = of 
others for s= afety.  This is as much selfish as anything. I am kind of a loud mouth=  
myself (as you= may have gathered) and I wish to retain the right to freely speak 
my political opinions, = as much as possible.
=
So, let's analyze this problem a bit.  Let= me start by apologizing for how long this
post is.  It is a complex problem with many face= ts.


Section 1.  Some history of con= tent classification
<= br id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537439655437_6414">
The problem of content classification has come u= p before.  We may look to the movie 
industry. People wish to know before they take th= eir children to see a particular movie
if it has objectional content of some type.

Here = is the Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_picture= _content_rating_system

Quoting from that entry:

"A motion pic= ture content rating system is designated to classify films with regard to&n= bsp;
suitability for = audiences in terms of issues such as sex, violence, substance abuse, <= /div>
profanity, impudence = or other types of mature content. A particular issued rating can be 
called a certification= , classification, certificate or rating. Ratings typically carry 
age recommendations in an= advisory or restrictive capacity, and are often given in lieu 
<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537439655437_6434">of censorship. In some juri= sdictions the legal obligation of administering the rating may 
<= div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537439655437_6435">be imposed on movie theater= s."
 
Books, in my knowledge (which m= ay be lacking) for instance, are generally not rated, except
in the most egregious cases. = ; One is rather horrified, in fact, to think of books as
being rated.  Except to protect ch= ildren from explicit sexual or violent content.  But,
I am speaking as a parent from a part= icular cultural background.  YMMV.
 
Just my opinion, but I would like to see only the most offensive cases= of Internet content
= as having some type of rating.  Maybe .0001 percent of all content on = the Internet, something 
like that.  But, we do not know yet have any specifics. = We have no real data to support
any statements.

There are, of course, cultural and perso= nal variations on how content is regarded. Currently,
movie ratings are done by nation-states.&n= bsp; More on this in the "Who will do this" section.

For example, on= e might conceive of a taxonomy such as:

A. Criminal content

*= Violent offence against people or inciting such (firearms and offensive we= apons may fall here) 
* Sexual offences or inciting such 
* Offences against property (Forgery, impersonati= on and cheating) 
* Other dangerous acts against people (harmful or dangerous drugs, fake p= harmaceutical sites) 


B. "Fake cont= ent", hate speech, or content aimed at spreading terrorism 

I u= nderstand this will be controversial but I think it is an important categor= y to discuss.
This is= what apparently caused the killings of the Rohingya muslims.

https= ://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/27/facebook-removes-accounts-mya= nmar-military-un-report-genocide-rohingya

=
It may in the future have = more impact.  One might easily imagine a fake video with Mr. Trump dec= laring 
war on [= North Korea / China / Canada].  This is likely to cause disruption.

I understand that Facebook, as well as a number of academic institutio= ns, are already working in the
space of trying to detect fake content.


C.  Content which is intentionally addictive

Governme= nts often feel compelled to step in with regulation for things which cause = addiction to their populace. 
In the past, it was narcotics.  From the Wikipedia entry= on the First Opium War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_W= ar

"In the 17th and 18th centuries, the demand for Chinese goods (pa= rticularly silk, porcelain, and tea) in 
Europe created a trade imbalance between Qing Impe= rial China and Great Britain. European silver flowed 
into China through the Canton System,= which confined incoming foreign trade to the southern port city of 
Canton. To counter thi= s imbalance, the British East India Company began to auction opium grown in= India
to independent= foreign traders in exchange for silver, and in doing so strengthened its t= rading influence 
in Asia. This opium was transported to the Chinese coast, where local mid= dlemen made massive profits 
selling the drug inside China. The influx of narcotics reverse= d the Chinese trade surplus, drained the 
economy of silver, and increased the numbers of o= pium addicts inside the country, outcomes that worried 
Chinese officials."

The C= hinese government took action.  You may be familiar with what happened= .

Some feel that some content on the Internet, particularly on mobil= e phones, particularly on some platforms,
is intentionally formulated to be addictive.  Som= e call this the "Dopamine economy".

One might expect to see regulati= on in this area.


D.  Content about = a specific person subject to the "Right to be forgotten".  As I unders= tand, it is extremely
difficult to actually comply to this regulation.  You may wish to rea= d an interesting book on this
topic "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson.

https= ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_You%27ve_Been_Publicly_Shamed


E.  This is not an exhaustive taxonomy.  I wond= er if we need a group of people to collaborate on 
developing a taxonomy and have an open d= iscussion in some forum.  I do not know where that forum should be.
Should it be at the IET= F?  Should it be in another SDO?  Should it be in a new group spo= nsored by
ISOC?
=

I think it is likely premature to discuss that before we have more of a f= eel of the boundaries of this 
problem.

I do believe, though, that there are implica= tions for protocols.  As in, if a classification system is
developed, then IETF protocols s= hould respect that classification.  How this will play out, I do not k= now.


Section 2.  Who will do this= ?

A.  For the movie industry, it varies.  Again from the W= ikipedia entry:

"In countries such as Australia and Singapore, an of= ficial government body decides on ratings; in other 
countries, such as the United States, = it is done by industry committees with little if any official 
government status. In most c= ountries, however, films that are considered morally offensive have been&nb= sp;
censored, restric= ted, or banned. Even if the film rating system has no legal consequences, a= nd a film 
has n= ot explicitly been restricted or banned, there are usually laws forbidding = certain films, or forbidding
minors to view them."

Where the analogy between movie conten= t and Internet breaks down is in the level of impact. (No analogy
is perfect.)  The impact = of Internet content appears to have a much greater level of potential harm<= /div>
than most movies.&nbs= p; People can actually get killed by unfortunate Internet content.

<= br id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537439655437_6565">
B. As I said before in another (overly lengthy p= ost) today, there are de-facto efforts by content 
providers: Facebook, Twitter, Google (Yo= uTube) to self-censor.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45495544<= /div>

To quote from that article:

"In 2017, Google said it would de= dicate more than 10,000 staff to rooting out violent extremist content
on YouTube 

Y= ouTube said staff had viewed nearly two million videos for violent extremis= m from June to December 2017 

YouTube said more than 98% of suc= h material was flagged automatically, with more than 50% of the videos = ;
removed having fewe= r than 10 views 

Industry members have worked together since 20= 15 to create a database of "digital fingerprints" of 
previously identified content to bett= er detect extremist material. As of December 2017, it contained 
=
more than 40,000 such "has= hes" 

in 2017, Facebook claimed that 99% of all Islamic State a= nd al Qaeda-related content was removed before 
users had flagged it. The social network sa= id that 83% of the remaining content was identified and removed 
=
within an hour 
=

between August 2015 and December 2017, Twitter said that it had suspended= more than 1.2 million accounts 
in its fight to stop the spread of extremist propaganda. I= t said that 93% were flagged by internal tools, 
with 74% suspended before their first twee= t." 


C. The UK government has also = been working in this area.  They want to help the smaller social media= platforms
and conten= t providers.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-technology-rev= ealed-to-help-fight-terrorist-content-online

To quote from the artic= le:

"The Home Office has today announced the development of new tech= nology to automatically detect terrorist 
content on any online platforms."

This tec= hnology can be used by social media platforms who are NOT FB, Twitter, and = YouTube.


D.  One option we have is = to simply rely on governments and content providers to police content accor= ding
to the needs the= y see fit.  This has the merit of simplicity.  None of us really = have to do anything
b= ut sit back and watch.  This is somewhat compelling as I suspect we al= l prefer to do actual protocol
design. 

But, the problem is likely to come when ther= e is a conflict with a protocol specification by the IETF
and a government regulation.  It = is also likely to move governments to reach into lower and lower levels
of the protocol stack to= regulate.  It may be a good idea to work together with regulators / g= overnment
to think ov= er these issues.


Section 3: How will it = be done?

This is an area where protocol design is most directly affe= cted.

There are at least four types of content: (I am sure you can t= hink of more)

- standalone web sites
- content on some platform (social media, YouTube, = SnapChat, etc)
- emai= l
- forums for discus= sion

I suspect that the content filtering we are talking of is for t= he first two.


A. Today, some filtering = of content (parental controls) for standalone web sites is done by DNS prox= ies (as I 
under= stand from talking to one ISP).  I suspect that this may come into con= flict with DNS over HTTPS.

B. Filtering of content on platforms is d= one by self-censorship.  Is this OK?

=
C. Some have suggested a t= ag for web sites.  If done, this should be respected by IETF protocols= .  There
is a qu= estion of who should do this?  Should it be directives by some SDO to = search engines?

D. To quote from one of Vittorio's posts:

"[W= e] have at least three possible cases: 

- content control that = the user wants (e.g., parental control mechanisms, ad removal, or security = filters) 
- cont= ent control that the user does not want, but is mandated and made legitimat= e by applicable real-world
  sovereignty features (e.g. governmental site blocking) 
- content control that= the user does not want and is not mandated or even allowed by law, but sti= ll is being
  do= ne by third parties for commercial reasons (e.g. violations of net neutrali= ty, traffic analysis and monetization etc.) 

Clearly, there is = a potential tension between these.


Secti= on 4: The Meta Issue: Where should this discussion take place?

I, fo= r one, think that this is probably one of the most important issues facing = us today.  As you might 
deduce from my extremely lengthy (sorry!) posts.

I am = quite happy to move this discussion to the ietf@ietf.org email list. Or eve= n to stop talking about
this altogether and approach another SDO (ETSI, ITU) to see if they are = interested in this topic.

I believe that this issue has protocol imp= lications and would like to see this discussion take place
at the IETF (or ISOC) somewhere. = ; But, I pose the question to the community to decide.

  
Thanks,
Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insi= dethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

------=_Part_234434_651651998.1537440412952-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 03:59:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C216C130E79 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 03:59:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A5-jKSHJAeRa for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 03:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3150130DCF for ; 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20 Sep 2018 10:59:11 +0000 Received: from [10.61.245.212] ([10.61.245.212]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w8KAx9vr024816; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:59:11 GMT To: Mark Nottingham , Ted Lemon Cc: Alp Toker , Corinne Cath , Niels ten Oever , Hrpc , Fred Baker References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 12:59:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dm7tBFTfeiYdefZQ6o01ntfweHwLcU3Pi" X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.245.212, [10.61.245.212] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:59:16 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --dm7tBFTfeiYdefZQ6o01ntfweHwLcU3Pi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="QB97Xhfq2LSCYtFNjSCL0carqxtggJdzT"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mark Nottingham , Ted Lemon Cc: Alp Toker , Corinne Cath , Niels ten Oever , Hrpc , Fred Baker Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[hrpc]_We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was:_Re:_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=e2=80=98Master/Slave=e2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pytho?= =?UTF-8?Q?n=29?= References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> In-Reply-To: --QB97Xhfq2LSCYtFNjSCL0carqxtggJdzT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 19.09.18 22:24, Mark Nottingham wrote: > P.S. FWIW - I'm surprised that people are putting so much energy into s= topping this.=20 Asking for data takes very little effort.=C2=A0 Providing the data appare= ntly takes quite a lot. --QB97Xhfq2LSCYtFNjSCL0carqxtggJdzT-- --dm7tBFTfeiYdefZQ6o01ntfweHwLcU3Pi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAlujfXwACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejPYIggAo2aDKMJ3oUAU32wJOx53+328pTKmj+v137eTOAvisNiHa4acWs6Cep4j TR12HR2r5HmQ4C36e8FeaFasw/Agr+rorw86Z7OK/h4Xr/Ns5I60TVeXZLgaPdNi oWoq/ErglShFZA3akUd42eeHK4DWw9I7NP5qY4yiVHfyO2d3ZTbQqXL9bp8932IH ER3I5ud/gU5cD1JtlCbhdO78f7vfs7HJFxTlEzRpx98s/Pa04AyCQZ+HMepawaZ9 ZqRyfbihrle0qX3GCH2utI1iVsR8WSgAaVl9GiR9NehN83JF//OFcJlUHKGoP/ji ZHanI2bQX9MIRIF7gtZPAvJ8KQvIcw== =qV0a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dm7tBFTfeiYdefZQ6o01ntfweHwLcU3Pi-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 04:47:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D12C8130E8B for ; 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Thu, 20 Sep 2018 12:47:03 +0100 (BST) To: Ted Lemon , Mark Perkins Cc: Fred Baker , Eliot Lear , Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> From: Alp Toker Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=alp@netblocks.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFjLADUBEADBRmTPLdUXbzBPV0aC2JkFyEicSGpTFLTf3TdJTqGlRj2zO0RzkKkS1qCG cutVLFITWXw4Oj71+e3e7NbjyPkSCpJpFh39Ten7j+TFjpH6QyaWSiOMMI0kHk9iaYFN4mx6 QfZgBZk8dav7p6tGkKBIKNIBH/OL8xVk/uAIHlOuCXZkTIK6Mu6C0+Fm79uvoy/6t/PxkJVS Qrbvsr89ACOqns7Nr3Q6b21tyJWLbXxOHtCStCap98lBWnwVauBHBZ1Jsce74xIkSwrerttY DcB+t3uA+OnxsYvWBbVeJo3nnYMoucWogRH34M4XUn5YMffmq8efmNesIDmt860nyRjcyQlu TWpsw99JpJOF7qZyPKE4MTWAq7RSalBDOhyzjNlGtZEbaR6gHkn0594hXqeuvtmpGS4j9ygh Mjw+erFInjhktslADy/RdHgNTcw+LKtPqD29XQ5VLkc3wtIDhDmzJk10rTloYdeAWMkT6P5u M/SG+ABJzWZ5sXkfK3tWGq3wL/6oWtCufu4qdSGnVnxWJnvR0frF83tWOpnwjOW/MkUaA13y WpYv4JLZkasBSYHO6RVoV/D2jBPgJYtqd0DFI30t8Ai89Y1gvlhOlLUqZG19tEEYsVd6uGsZ Hf9pAJc7H3sbl7rtvfdwXFEgavRMdMhqx/bIFDevQ5B3mZAk0QARAQABzSBBbHAgVG9rZXIg PGFscEB0dXJrZXlibG9ja3Mub3JnPsLBeAQTAQIAIgUCWMsJJgIbAwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoL BBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8wvyJlso01w4Eg//YrLpGXUOor+udxloZYQHAxl5cnN7gcKTvCsi Y7jlIgOn7+3wC4qRAallMwlQroSBrMNyZfe4pBAM3WKyz7FfBkjgghmegjcWCgdNqp0OG9cZ cuC9xrzCMp3VIW9D9XCBzraa6LU/B/23NXZehmi4dn7uOk8+7wEK1mkUglbqAYgnQoeFbX+U 8ZcntDxOoqhlr7LG4NIqAPA5KfUASvD9biD8PAj1u6arDv68A3uplxTOxVw57bHv6ZlaeJB1 A28bFPyvv8KTthwnhVdmY1hoK6psVKSGeNqK0Zy/JHIadT7EM9k6UsdCSm5iQuskoK1D2e1b MH+jsKh8HEmEYEawYGkerFqEWuEpEVLTOTXOgEJaabJeiPwWDtzVoumOkI1ox0SM0idpE5+S v92+1wNVKPiheyV+ZkbVVHh7NeVlysbmgt9iR6eKSnu013CX51o4D9kd+jPJgUvymk6TS36G r2hFKuGDFXG14qjuS2etWEXdHzDZL6FWCJa0ExKq3KB6vl3WL3nMSgFIPzwx5d3uNArqZlxA PRunpWNyYHNresuSyBP8N98WHwXF+vFIDVuzbuY5WQXxbySZXTDCebugH/yI/2niAZaHaDQy ZE38asxBP0z/1jy/gET0TAKpTBD1WVTAvs4zul2/WWXrHbo4ifTn+hPG1QgR+5Zc6DjGv1zO wU0EWMsANQEQAMQ492z3EgOR6VIwDT/F8AUAlgYtnTn+pdJ8QNJ8vm7s1/PrlSRNDq4nUFBg yw8rMCUDAQTeGkeWREMIjtFj4+kFNceS3z/W6mbZMVj9TkaRhD56NNshCu3wTZkH72SWj1YL qLO6Z29K/GxseqrrtxL634GNtUPWLJNxDxe8l518gANQ8n5eQxLvBT81H8IL+Kv8JrzdlKTh K8evoD8Y5H846YoP/bbhE/l5gUdBd+JdDxR3QEBTKcuGjXB0kzBgvF36yghW2f4FK/yI+yut GlKtKd408WzxnOOgZ8A4PLhL+4bgP+eh4XPF2aGTIiVmNWZ+rZjrrrSa28W3++jtb6RPFKek ffIPQZf4B8+D3gDb+tQsuEH9EV2DkqC71L2nWE5TdJkno8yrI6rT0j7oWPECk6AVSYxzikX4 pVuU2Fcd37d56nXNHgUji5m0nsfdE7CiabwS+HBaIdZeORBN3iBhE9ryAYi0vWKphbtvoAq7 J9xSpjb8TbdWW7rnFFBQgZ/3KOBKGgB8YBjWXuToHutVCtZbbToCQEB7D4e0PfCF2VkY/B/p Rd8jcPuXuzpt8m6+zrUiOGPVz7yOW494kX4ZgVUGrsx6ENK2rmv5Fat1h8ihJ8efmOGzzY6/ OKd5457i4SL06taeGwmGsZJlJZEaUu5hNBths5Rv+Oh16+6/ABEBAAHCwV8EGAECAAkFAljL ADUCGwwACgkQ8wvyJlso01wp4A/7B7o4c/ggK2c1Rjv8WZVFM6Uyzz6CIUL6gS5kFgnOB8Ft mX90iY8FXVumu2z0XAyEeg7vPI6btRslOP2271oevVQUokO8PCy0p7JGydN18JMPyje4TszY Gb8Xkyx5HrCC4YeHrH6eIhKQr2ZT0kUDzVA6i/i1tiNugsbK0sx0MBPsB5AsHd+LmFOhy0gm aX1r34VcFVIFkKg6dokKr9qLqei1pfXVjTACcem1RRRGYnp/tvnJenryPga0gdNJjxVwDVgV 4DHPR84lDomlmLvuasNG3ukZ3uDhAauwNUXmFdvdsRw5uF2zXFqStocxlBthw6e+X+Pi4OlC Ke/Yt93H5mP73jmQlzpUy50fXejs4F0K27ww4Vsam/oAhi3d1PV+fZc3T4zMI7sZu832I3+e ewoHZH4pu6THeaw6TBwtCOWGUCVNbswo67IZuXEKtu8MhvTrecJrfBCZOTxo295GrWHTv3Pv 9pEuhRp17Y8Hiuq7S2UoCOyiqQRLaK2A0pXlMAJz8GaPI7VhaNeD0+puxwfXZJI8w8zcTaGJ dZhvB3krbaiTXZaXEySsIfLVjRieN3njEV1ZjJ2BnKdBUV/Ck+OsQSkonu22aTT+COsFNMUA samz8CvoSOT/zomOn2JYdqc97OzoW4RsCQvSlQnjpExGbWOvmyUy4uHKST28qC4= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:47:02 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------AF6DFDF6F172FD5EAE4F51D7" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 11:47:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AF6DFDF6F172FD5EAE4F51D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 20/09/2018 04:50, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Sep 19, 2018, at 4:31 PM, Mark Perkins > wrote >> Totally agree that such terms should be changed BUT also agree that >> there should be a correct process - the call to poll ISOC Chapters re >> problematic terminology is an excellent idea > > I don't think ISOC has a pony in this race. =A0 The reason for HRPC to > work on this, if there is one, is to present a recommendation to the > IETF to act on (or not). > > The ISOC technical community is certainly invested and affected by the outcome of this discussion as an audience of IETF specifications. This global resource exists at the disposal of IRTF and would stand ready to provide empirical data whether by formal consultation or a straw poll. If language is really a problem for communities around the world, then empirical data and real-world experiences will help present a compelling case to IETF, and present it consistently without a North American or Western European slant. On the other hand, if this turns out not to be a priority issue it will save a whole lot of engineering time and documentation churn to establish that from the outset and move on to other issues. What's becoming clear from this exchange is that there is no clear path to consensus without inviting input from those engineers who are affected by the decision. A. --=20 https://netblocks.org @atoker @netblocks --------------AF6DFDF6F172FD5EAE4F51D7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 20/09/2018 04:50, Ted Lemon wrote:

On Sep 19, 2018, at 4:31 PM, Mark Perkins <marknoumea@yahoo.com> wrote
Totally agree that such terms should be changed BUT also agree that there should be a correct process - the call to poll ISOC Chapters re problematic terminology is an excellent idea

I don't think ISOC has a pony in this race.   The reason for HRPC to work on this, if there is one, is to present a recommendation to the IETF to act on (or not).


The ISOC technical community is certainly invested and affected by the outcome of this discussion as an audience of IETF specifications. This global resource exists at the disposal of IRTF and would stand ready to provide empirical data whether by formal consultation or a straw poll.

If language is really a problem for communities around the world, then empirical data and real-world experiences will help present a compelling case to IETF, and present it consistently without a North American or Western European slant.

On the other hand, if this turns out not to be a priority issue it will save a whole lot of engineering time and documentation churn to establish that from the outset and move on to other issues.

What's becoming clear from this exchange is that there is no clear path to consensus without inviting input from those engineers who are affected by the decision.

A.

-- 
https://netblocks.org
@atoker @netblocks
--------------AF6DFDF6F172FD5EAE4F51D7-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 05:40:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EACE130EA3; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 05:40:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3xJsMh5m5rHb; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 05:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABC83130E8D; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 05:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w8KCeajJ025356; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:40:36 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 28F42205306; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:40:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1872520534C; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:40:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w8KCeZgV020471; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:40:36 +0200 To: Amelia Andersdotter References: <32d8c171-2586-e2db-7cc6-26c3385b6946@article19.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: Hrpc , its@ietf.org Message-ID: <51043908-f33a-ffb4-db2b-baeb5cc0fbe2@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:40:35 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <32d8c171-2586-e2db-7cc6-26c3385b6946@article19.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [ipwave] RFC8280 Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-25 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 12:40:42 -0000 This is part 3, and last, of addressing comments Human Rights. Le 07/09/2018 à 22:49, Amelia Andersdotter a écrit : [...] > 4. In Section 4.3 and 4.5 it should be clarified what privacy > benefits, if any, are expected from using semantically obscure IIDs > as proposed in RFC7217. It will at least be relevant to clarify > whether privacy benefits could arise in contexts that are explicitly > out of scope (such as during forming, termination or handover), e.g. > with respect to parameter selection as specified in Appendix A of > RFC7217. I propose the following NEW text to address your comment. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Semantically opaque Interface Identifiers, instead of meaningful Interface Identifiers derived from a valid and meaningful MAC address (RFC 2464, section 4), MAY be needed in order to avoid certain privacy risks. A valid MAC address includes a unique identifier pointing to a company together with its postal address, and a unique number within that company MAC space (see the oui.txt file). The calculation operation of the MAC address back from a given meaningful Interface Identifier is straightforward (RFC 2464, section 4). The Interface Identifier is part of an IPv6 address that is stored in IPv6 packets. The IPv6 packets can be captured in the Internet easily. For these reasons, an attacker may realize many attacks on privacy. One such attack on 802.11-OCB is to capture, store and correlate Company ID information of many cars in public areas (e.g. listen for Router Advertisements, or IPv6 application data packets, and record the value of the source address in these packets). Further correlation of this information with other data captured by other means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY constitute privacy risks. In order to avoid these risks, opaque Interface Identifiers MAY be formed according to rules described in RFC 7217. These opaque Interface Identifiers are formed starting from identifiers different than the MAC addresses, and from cryptographically strong material. Thus, privacy sensitive information is absent from Interface IDs, and it is impossible to calculate the initial value from which the Interface ID was calculated. Some applications that use IPv6 packets on 802.11-OCB links (among other link types) may benefit from IPv6 addresses whose Interface Identifiers don't change too often. It is RECOMMENDED to use the mechanisms described in RFC 7217 to permit the use of Stable Interface Identifiers that do not change within one subnet prefix. A possible source for the Net-Iface Parameter is a virtual interface name, or logical interface name, that is decided by a local administrator. From nobody Thu Sep 20 06:06:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE8C130EA3 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:06:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gSy3q-sXeNyb for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 299DB129C6B for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g2yfP-0007e6-KN; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:06:47 +0200 To: Eliot Lear , hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> <47d834c1-681e-5fd3-e726-a3adcbef30c1@cisco.com> <4539138b-6a7e-cf13-7aad-b40e797de821@article19.org> From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAHNJU1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QG1heWZpcnN0Lm9yZz7CwJgEEwECAEICGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo 9WUFCRAV234ACgkQDDKicb08x4DklAf+ODKRmP6C2MnBz6vL8N8l3vZJUqoRcYXTn3uTpT05 Wou87ZIZ/P/OV2/uOMKkczLQQydj5S8PxbLTeg+U5f/63hdy99ON+K2b4izg7Qasdl1SqXTH q1pmhbrcbLbVKDJ345fdEg7RuMnv4gd3EaT/yQa99zHy8JHaBKaPEUQAa65HTt2Sy2c6L6BA aMZx1TOZ9/cZ7L1gJyytJbEyvg/JLOatJEI4rewUWU2TMSGJijwjAUBagwDPWyxpz+vXdKsD tqRTpY4xvXaeUQo0QXf0c5j1Gcglzv7ywZcyz1MGD1aLS9/CqeB3I4EMbvH/33LS3jNkfKbV XOTSjmo7l22CNc7ATQRMdE1nAQgA4mpP2LjFuAW2li9FPbDYOMzt0MtThXsnvHyY0fDv8FlU qnKgPrMY80VHntnxwqepFS3ncunVX4ipq+fadta+LHpTnbJSmlphBrc9qGJxqcjwf4yo35Xh OXCJFwnaoAwIX237lXRe4Xh6X4VMuJt8jiZdvgpbk/whvQH2grcq8KjCcy1iuL5pBl8ZwYG/ dphitFhQdqEcnc/krIqG4KQgKiUi3K/GR0OeEmw/cscWD7/CLEo7eHiaGQhSOyDQbM+Iu2o/ 6uMXMUPsYlMMqgmVL68zMacO3PE17jx0rQ8oZ7CpBY8YZWOWrzXrtFT8JO9guuCPsvd4KT6y 97y9LRJlPQARAQABwsB8BBgBAgAmAhsMFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo9WYF CRAV238ACgkQDDKicb08x4DU4QgAmlyBlFhfU0jpkbyD3HQ+3CJqWdBT422pVIrj3qNT2ehy fWO66Muidmd4Y279uV3p3TQEJOQvnV7FVAC9+bI7AdBy00BAjHgJ5eSQZxKTXUoeeBAsTZHN /HaHewjYWHMvCuuzir/Wt3A6Cehh8gp9I/Vg+oL3dTldVqqgZLgnA83bT/R8fI/e85LDlpdx KJ0+uy/grg3AbH7LUUrmMIC2iO8mQWYuNlizsUZLFvJhCAU2c5l8B5mv2BoWFhL+l7mmNcdF bwBFXon7Ea1jkCnbWVxtXkPYkcuWuMSTJswn9HhZVJWjUonKqUZKAb9PxRzC9crZ+X14tQT3 iJt2a4ZM4w== Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 16:06:44 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a8ecdd0179e5342c74548fafd5461917 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:06:53 -0000 On 19/09/18 22:18, Eliot Lear wrote: > Of the links, the only one that REALLY demonstrates actual offense to a= n > individual I'm going to stop you right there. It's wrong for individuals in an oppressive class to place themselves as the arbiters of what is "real" or "actual" offense against a target class= . In this instance we are attempting to eradicate offense, not itemise and catalog it. It's certainly enough for me, and others who have posted on this thread, that it has been identified as offensive within other communities. It's motivating that then something was done about it. -Mallory --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Thu Sep 20 06:53:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89325129C6B for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:53:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7oTJ5IAcpL1e for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound1a.ore.mailhop.org (outbound1a.ore.mailhop.org [54.213.22.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C142A1277CC for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:53:43 -0700 (PDT) X-MHO-RoutePath: amN1cnJhbg== X-MHO-User: 93f23a1a-bcdc-11e8-aed8-99744f00ac98 X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 100.36.44.186 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from geode.istaff.org (unknown [100.36.44.186]) by outbound1.ore.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPA id 93f23a1a-bcdc-11e8-aed8-99744f00ac98; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:53:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by geode.istaff.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577112C8673D; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 09:53:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at istaff.org Received: from geode.istaff.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (geode.istaff.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y8rLfQUjPq-p; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 09:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fullerite.fios-router.home (fullerite.fios-router.home [192.168.100.151]) by geode.istaff.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0FBD82C86716; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 09:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: John Curran In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 09:53:22 -0400 Cc: Eliot Lear , hrpc@irtf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2F740360-11BB-4950-9248-4C3B3E1FFC01@istaff.org> References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> <47d834c1-681e-5fd3-e726-a3adcbef30c1@cisco.com> <4539138b-6a7e-cf13-7aad-b40e797de821@article19.org> To: Mallory Knodel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:53:46 -0000 On 20 Sep 2018, at 9:06 AM, Mallory Knodel = wrote: >=20 > On 19/09/18 22:18, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Of the links, the only one that REALLY demonstrates actual offense to = an >> individual >=20 > I'm going to stop you right there. >=20 > It's wrong for individuals in an oppressive class to place themselves = as > the arbiters of what is "real" or "actual" offense against a target = class. Mallory -=20 In the above sentence, do you mean =E2=80=9Carbiters of what = content/behavior may be offensive to others=E2=80=9D ? If so, then I = strongly agree: individuals (and groups of individuals) have freedom to = take offensive at anything as they feel appropriate. However, you might mean "arbiters of what content/behavior is deemed an = offense against others=E2=80=9D (i.e. a harm)=E2=80=A6 =20 If this was your point, I cannot agree, since while it is true that = =E2=80=9Cmembers of an oppressive class=E2=80=9D should not be solely = determining what constitutes a harm, neither should that be solely up to = those who feel offended. The overall judgement is must be based on the = balance of norms and laws of the society in which the behavior occurred.=20= > In this instance we are attempting to eradicate offense, not itemise = and > catalog it. >=20 > It's certainly enough for me, and others who have posted on this = thread, > that it has been identified as offensive within other communities. = It's > motivating that then something was done about it. Again, I cannot automatically concur that it is appropriate to "do = something" about content/behavior solely because some find it = offensive=E2=80=A6 There is an extremely steep and slippery slope which = we enter when the language offensive to any segment of the community = automatically is equated to a harm that must be remediated =E2=80=93 a = situation wherein freedom of speech enjoyed by all (and deemed overall = acceptable by community norms) can be lost as a result.=20 Thank you, /John p.s. Disclaimers: Personal views alone. This content is composed of = 100% recycled electrons. Do not read this email while driving.=20 From nobody Thu Sep 20 06:56:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 961DC130DE8 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:56:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VX5sHZjAgLGJ for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C6B9129C6B for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id v14-v6so7464118iob.4 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:56:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ignru4BRBdOI/nPlDXxZLcYMubdl1nNPdnIF/9IOuos=; b=eRlJcda8hT5SgdurBX2x7rrov0AyopiW8AM7bHTnZFstabFFvZLpABNOrGuerkSG6m LEJgvzrvlNJYXi/SX31pwFKKlyCcvcBhCim36o8DSn82l1awZWrjuJEyq5onqo/rYziI wyA4qseD/4gbhVqsYXvvdOnrgIJxR+WS6PpdQyCQvjo3by5Yd9nBKxCA1SJRj03v77Ve 62tSIXfehcFMZwlLkj0W9CC4bvK4o5g19yZISAf3515u8CigoQ1RuxW/8gyZ2aY0GL06 S3QkStOpemOTigcbN11TzTQIBxnj0ll+4Jrsz05mVT2aKBYjNyNWUL8dPMmi3ch04Zv4 t3Yg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ignru4BRBdOI/nPlDXxZLcYMubdl1nNPdnIF/9IOuos=; b=qjhx8roLBMmCLF/w9zts8N4OqBuq80HV8meI/1ZS59UOJPyGf3rUWjXQFLY4NoMRXG r4BBf3A8a5JcZO7JG8YOZ4NHVOS7xNCjLnfpGaLWrL7SWKkTaYrqAoq6Vs5+/78sucp2 7Ux365EyDLndLv32xk0Cf2lEdri8JlCltjiCxfQrxox4vdy5GRGtGij8G8y5m5EO4WZJ Gx5Fqvslws7SF/49IzfGdY0RFDlzVYnJfrqoDwGtXSR8qWCr30O8qxT6xXn3zvUi+0dn XneHL0izeD05ptUUfz80rCl2I7XvVmPtYzXC0PDTnKzdPsXv9zwB9f4/POy4xtJ3qLMD LmZw== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51AgSSo2DeT+Ti/yPl9WU3Hi2SOHuhQa6dyBqn2nzSedn5vpDPxy YqcbA06ma4Nr0Evgj2C2oj/l7da48NTeyOhkjtVypg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdY9IJgTP2fJi7FzWS1W2kz+TnBH0cFbGi0rdUAJhnngoxGB7cQ/Yi2bkli77fyJ9dHLDQ/5DKjtYodpWsxB5N4= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:9d0b:: with SMTP id g11-v6mr34773492ioe.85.1537451799324; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:56:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> <45632038.185213.1537421073005@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <45632038.185213.1537421073005@mail.yahoo.com> From: Ted Lemon Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 09:56:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: Mark Perkins Cc: Alp Toker , Corinne Cath , Eliot Lear , Fred Baker , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005bbc0a05764de4a7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:56:43 -0000 --0000000000005bbc0a05764de4a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don=E2=80=99t see why they would be a representative population sample. I= f a study were to be designed, serious thought would have to be put into this. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:24 AM Mark Perkins wrote: > Ted > > The point was to use ISOC Chapters as a sample group to do some research > on the question of problematic protocol terminology, NOT to give them a > 'pony' as you put it ;) > > Mark P. > > On Thursday, September 20, 2018, 12:51:11 PM GMT+11, Ted Lemon < > mellon@fugue.com> wrote: > > > On Sep 19, 2018, at 4:31 PM, Mark Perkins wrote > > Totally agree that such terms should be changed BUT also agree that there > should be a correct process - the call to poll ISOC Chapters re problemat= ic > terminology is an excellent idea > > > I don't think ISOC has a pony in this race. The reason for HRPC to work > on this, if there is one, is to present a recommendation to the IETF to a= ct > on (or not). > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --0000000000005bbc0a05764de4a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don=E2=80=99t see why they would be a representati= ve population sample. If a study were to be designed, serious thought would= have to be put into this.=C2=A0

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:24 AM Mark Perkins <marknoumea@yahoo.com> wrote:
=
Ted

The point was to use ISOC Chapter= s as a sample group to do some research on the question of problematic prot= ocol terminology, NOT to give them a 'pony' as you put it ;)
<= div>
Mark P.

=20
<= div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-siz= e:13px">
=20
On Thursday, September 20, 2018, 12:51:11 PM GMT+11, Te= d Lemon <mellon@fu= gue.com> wrote:


O= n Sep 19, 2018, at 4:31 PM, Mark Perkins <marknoumea@yahoo.com> wrote

=
Totally agree that such terms should be changed BUT= also agree that there should be a correct process - the call to poll ISOC = Chapters re problematic terminology is an excellent idea

I don't think ISOC has a pony in this race. =C2=A0 The rea= son for HRPC to work on this, if there is one, is to present a recommendati= on to the IETF to act on (or not).


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--0000000000005bbc0a05764de4a7-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 07:09:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C99A3130EE8 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:09:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id seAhn9hOA5I5 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D223A130F32 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id q4-v6so7495843iob.8 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:09:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DRt4A7+/PYaGLma1XeRKSEQZ3rtUQj6YIKgoUbvEMzw=; b=YpGcdhtBGQUCRpxzjKFzOQVk2sgwa0vkzbWLkDgPgW6gWZjsL4J4VvCXlSt/mrXQqG EKr7mKbWQJSVm+TEUpAHwGcfHSUZ24Ml95vti6q+Af2bzBVWHJqwm4bcJzZ5N+D6Fl3W Zm5zMWpVCo89bUwKqOHpE3qTM5IqIlOGU6IT5b6R08HihQ6Cv7b5QryxEZMTYzWazwQY EUnS5oXGvFFRMKrvnpeuwLQRyUhAuCh8JbdWRVSpCxwwB8bNP0G5rvQSdZHoewadU2zQ 11vgaiN5bKR3mlRbahim1NtaZmrU6Dsfo3KjSduVJZLmDpYfeFLYH4vOWr73hVbXhE2w ca6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DRt4A7+/PYaGLma1XeRKSEQZ3rtUQj6YIKgoUbvEMzw=; b=DG2ajLAir1QypyE6pv2aUdptFD3hRddzrs7P/7ZAXvAqqWUMKLjuDgcbg6ljr+/rMs v+SGGGJP99UaCMiaQWwnn5kLDQ3hoEAOEZVLOWHKEul8XGBFywIdcSKTLX+1BAHVU5ET +AGlE7fKr0OTYD+4kxpigjABGd5TzefLxBEgL3lxgmzwjnPTUBfMmDcRpzXE9kjBA0OF 7qoYX8wqqw3tc2KGqEchpl9aZHwQWxDsyPMFvPK5gnfASTJQbVVtcp6ZrPr8rEvpcXrk e0z/ZO+xDr1q6FXtppf/RbAjpzQqtYKIVzYvO2IkygUj6ijgH92s7iDybD9SpJSr9iKm RDXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BBDJfv0feS+RIiw/aVN3NZUybp04x1T8pMpnEM9Pe3iaGpPk2v JrMUY4MqioYpbX5c3QLwQUBgqF31cGnGYpc9tOFa8g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZIItKhnns3ur7DwAWWIBTlWoTMVf4LeLY+2Bn2os/0fyb2K1RJeSTuK4sVDFV3GHWRgfj8xlq9xVSmr0W4BlE= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:9d0b:: with SMTP id g11-v6mr34840503ioe.85.1537452570923; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:09:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> <47d834c1-681e-5fd3-e726-a3adcbef30c1@cisco.com> <4539138b-6a7e-cf13-7aad-b40e797de821@article19.org> <2F740360-11BB-4950-9248-4C3B3E1FFC01@istaff.org> In-Reply-To: <2F740360-11BB-4950-9248-4C3B3E1FFC01@istaff.org> From: Ted Lemon Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:09:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: John Curran Cc: Eliot Lear , Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059a8d605764e12eb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:09:42 -0000 --00000000000059a8d605764e12eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, =E2=80=9Cfind it offensive=E2=80=9D is the wrong metric. The right me= tric is =E2=80=9Care harmed because the terminology is in use.=E2=80=9D The problem comes when = the terminology can be used to abuse interested parties, not when interested parties would prefer not to hear it. This may feel like a fine distinction, but it=E2=80=99s not. What it means to be offended by some speech is that the speech is unacceptable to you. This type of offense is generally used to oppress, and is not a reaction to oppression. For example, =E2=80=9CI am offended that y= ou used that coarse language, and now we must exclude you from our polite company.= =E2=80=9D What it means to be harmed by the speech is that the speech is being used as a way to harass or abuse. For example, the dominatrix comment mentioned earlier. Or the use of the term by one co-worker to harass another co-worker, using the technical meaning as cover. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 9:53 AM John Curran wrote: > On 20 Sep 2018, at 9:06 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote: > > > > On 19/09/18 22:18, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> Of the links, the only one that REALLY demonstrates actual offense to = an > >> individual > > > > I'm going to stop you right there. > > > > It's wrong for individuals in an oppressive class to place themselves a= s > > the arbiters of what is "real" or "actual" offense against a target > class. > > Mallory - > > In the above sentence, do you mean =E2=80=9Carbiters of what content/beha= vior may > be offensive to others=E2=80=9D ? If so, then I strongly agree: individu= als (and > groups of individuals) have freedom to take offensive at anything as they > feel appropriate. > > However, you might mean "arbiters of what content/behavior is deemed an > offense against others=E2=80=9D (i.e. a harm)=E2=80=A6 > > If this was your point, I cannot agree, since while it is true that > =E2=80=9Cmembers of an oppressive class=E2=80=9D should not be solely det= ermining what > constitutes a harm, neither should that be solely up to those who feel > offended. The overall judgement is must be based on the balance of norms > and laws of the society in which the behavior occurred. > > > In this instance we are attempting to eradicate offense, not itemise an= d > > catalog it. > > > > It's certainly enough for me, and others who have posted on this thread= , > > that it has been identified as offensive within other communities. It's > > motivating that then something was done about it. > > Again, I cannot automatically concur that it is appropriate to "do > something" about content/behavior solely because some find it offensive= =E2=80=A6 > There is an extremely steep and slippery slope which we enter when the > language offensive to any segment of the community automatically is equat= ed > to a harm that must be remediated =E2=80=93 a situation wherein freedom o= f speech > enjoyed by all (and deemed overall acceptable by community norms) can be > lost as a result. > > Thank you, > /John > > p.s. Disclaimers: Personal views alone. This content is composed of 100= % > recycled electrons. Do not read this email while driving. > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --00000000000059a8d605764e12eb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John, =E2=80=9Cfind it offensive=E2=80=9D is the wro= ng metric. The right metric is =E2=80=9Care harmed because the terminology = is in use.=E2=80=9D =C2=A0The problem comes when the terminology can be use= d to abuse interested parties, not when interested parties would prefer not= to hear it. This may feel like a fine distinction, but it=E2=80=99s not.= =C2=A0

What it mea= ns to be offended by some speech is that the speech is unacceptable to you.= This type of offense is generally used to oppress, and is not a reaction t= o oppression. For example, =E2=80=9CI am offended that you used that coarse= language, and now we must exclude you from our polite company.=E2=80=9D

What it means to be harmed= by the speech is that the speech is being used as a way to harass or abuse= . For example, the dominatrix comment mentioned earlier.=C2=A0 Or the use o= f the term by one co-worker to harass another co-worker, using the technica= l meaning as cover.=C2=A0

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 9:53 AM John Curran <jcurran@istaff.org> wrote:
On 20 Sep 2018, at 9:06 AM, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org> wrote:
>
> On 19/09/18 22:18, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> Of the links, the only one that REALLY demonstrates actual offense= to an
>> individual
>
> I'm going to stop you right there.
>
> It's wrong for individuals in an oppressive class to place themsel= ves as
> the arbiters of what is "real" or "actual" offense= against a target class.

Mallory -

In the above sentence, do you mean =E2=80=9Carbiters of what content/behavi= or may be offensive to others=E2=80=9D ?=C2=A0 If so, then I strongly agree= : individuals (and groups of individuals) have freedom to take offensive at= anything as they feel appropriate.

However, you might mean "arbiters of what content/behavior is deemed a= n offense against others=E2=80=9D (i.e. a harm)=E2=80=A6=C2=A0

If this was your point, I cannot agree, since while it is true that =E2=80= =9Cmembers of an oppressive class=E2=80=9D should not be solely determining= what constitutes a harm, neither should that be solely up to those who fee= l offended.=C2=A0 The overall judgement is must be based on the balance of = norms and laws of the society in which the behavior occurred.

> In this instance we are attempting to eradicate offense, not itemise a= nd
> catalog it.
>
> It's certainly enough for me, and others who have posted on this t= hread,
> that it has been identified as offensive within other communities. It&= #39;s
> motivating that then something was done about it.

Again, I cannot automatically concur that it is appropriate to "do som= ething" about content/behavior solely because some find it offensive= =E2=80=A6=C2=A0 There is an extremely steep and slippery slope which we ent= er when the language offensive to any segment of the community automaticall= y is equated to a harm that must be remediated =E2=80=93 a situation wherei= n freedom of speech enjoyed by all (and deemed overall acceptable by commun= ity norms) can be lost as a result.

Thank you,
/John

p.s. Disclaimers:=C2=A0 Personal views alone.=C2=A0 This content is compose= d of 100% recycled electrons.=C2=A0 Do not read this email while driving. <= br>
_______________________________________________
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hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
--00000000000059a8d605764e12eb-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 07:24:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8CD130EAE for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:24:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kVEkJrOzfnge for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound2n.ore.mailhop.org (outbound2n.ore.mailhop.org [54.186.218.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EDC4130EB5 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:24:03 -0700 (PDT) X-MHO-RoutePath: amN1cnJhbg== X-MHO-User: d08400b7-bce0-11e8-a70c-1d534e3451d5 X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 100.36.44.186 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from geode.istaff.org (unknown [100.36.44.186]) by outbound2.ore.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPA id d08400b7-bce0-11e8-a70c-1d534e3451d5; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:24:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by geode.istaff.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25352C86B42; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:23:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at istaff.org Received: from geode.istaff.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (geode.istaff.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2TDiP6DqcS5e; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fullerite.fios-router.home (fullerite.fios-router.home [192.168.100.151]) by geode.istaff.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A6A9A2C86B2F; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: John Curran In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:23:42 -0400 Cc: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org, Eliot Lear Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5B986AC5-8A52-4D65-96DB-BB403396CB44@istaff.org> References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> <47d834c1-681e-5fd3-e726-a3adcbef30c1@cisco.com> <4539138b-6a7e-cf13-7aad-b40e797de821@article19.org> <2F740360-11BB-4950-9248-4C3B3E1FFC01@istaff.org> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:24:05 -0000 On 20 Sep 2018, at 10:09 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: >=20 > John, =E2=80=9Cfind it offensive=E2=80=9D is the wrong metric. The = right metric is =E2=80=9Care harmed because the terminology is in = use.=E2=80=9D The problem comes when the terminology can be used to = abuse interested parties, not when interested parties would prefer not = to hear it. This may feel like a fine distinction, but it=E2=80=99s not. = =20 =E2=80=9CTerminology can be used to abuse interested parties=E2=80=9D is = a very large space=E2=80=A6=20 (just as kitchen implements that _can be used to abuse others_ is much = larger space than items that are recognized as dangerous weapons) > What it means to be harmed by the speech is that the speech is being = used as a way to harass or abuse.. In which case, wouldn=E2=80=99t the harm be the result of the (mis)use, = rather than the words themselves? Whether the servers are arranged as a "master/slave configuration" or in = a "primary/secondary configuration" doesn=E2=80=99t cause harm, it=E2=80=99= s the usage of the term =E2=80=9Cslave=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80= =9D to characterize others (or their views/feelings/priorities) that = would appear to the problem.=20 /John p.s. Disclaimers: My views alone. Do not ponder while operating heavy = machinery. No animals were harmed in the production of this email.=20 From nobody Thu Sep 20 08:40:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD7C130DBE for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 08:40:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b-kah32yU7LN for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 08:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 131F91277CC for ; 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20 Sep 2018 15:40:00 +0000 Received: from [10.61.162.136] ([10.61.162.136]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w8KFdx7v012885; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:39:59 GMT To: Ted Lemon Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> <47d834c1-681e-5fd3-e726-a3adcbef30c1@cisco.com> <4539138b-6a7e-cf13-7aad-b40e797de821@article19.org> <2F740360-11BB-4950-9248-4C3B3E1FFC01@istaff.org> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:39:58 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vSa447xUa0h8u9yfP0GAvylwj22h1NeVo" X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.162.136, [10.61.162.136] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:40:06 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --vSa447xUa0h8u9yfP0GAvylwj22h1NeVo Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="oIV9LUHZkiqvlBS88jOVMLGGyxv7b3Nbk"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Ted Lemon Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[hrpc]_We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was:_Re:_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=e2=80=98Master/Slave=e2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pytho?= =?UTF-8?Q?n=29?= References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4766E764-FAFF-42D6-A081-2D4BAF15ED5A@fugue.com> <47833517-a90b-788a-f8b8-fd0d90f45e59@article19.org> <47d834c1-681e-5fd3-e726-a3adcbef30c1@cisco.com> <4539138b-6a7e-cf13-7aad-b40e797de821@article19.org> <2F740360-11BB-4950-9248-4C3B3E1FFC01@istaff.org> In-Reply-To: --oIV9LUHZkiqvlBS88jOVMLGGyxv7b3Nbk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C67AD7529A60F4702D5130A2" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C67AD7529A60F4702D5130A2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ted, Thank you for actually swinging this Research Group back into a discussion that has at least some research aspect to it.=C2=A0 Please see= below. On 20.09.18 16:09, Ted Lemon wrote: > John, =E2=80=9Cfind it offensive=E2=80=9D is the wrong metric. The righ= t metric is > =E2=80=9Care harmed because the terminology is in use.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 There is a body of work on whether harm is incurred.=C2=A0 An example of = such a work is [1].=C2=A0 > The problem comes when the terminology can be used to abuse interested > parties, not when interested parties would prefer not to hear it. This > may feel like a fine distinction, but it=E2=80=99s not. I run the attendant risks of being well outside my swimming lane,=C2=A0 a= t least [1] seems to confirm your view, that this harm is highly contextual.=C2=A0 I won't say that is dispositive- I'm not in that field.= [...] > What it means to be harmed by the speech is that the speech is being > used as a way to harass or abuse. For example, the dominatrix comment > mentioned earlier.=C2=A0 Or the use of the term by one co-worker to har= ass > another co-worker, using the technical meaning as cover. This is the case that does bother me, as I wrote earlier.=C2=A0 If that i= s an isolated case, I think we should treat it as such, but if it is emblematic of substantial abuse, that is quite a different matter.=C2=A0 Contrary to other people's assertions, that case has not been made.=C2=A0= One can easily find an extreme example here.=C2=A0 There are simply some word= s and phrases that we would never use in either formal or informal communications, precisely because they are unambiguously offensive where their use demonstrates intent.=C2=A0 And then there is everything else.=C2= =A0 I don't know how much research has been done in this space, but if that is the work this RG wants to do, alright.=C2=A0 I would hope that we don't lose sight of other work as well in the process, like the tussles occurring over special access/encryption/... to name but one. Eliot [1] Jay, T. (2009). Do offensive words harm people? /Psychology, Public Policy, and Law, 15/(2), 81-101. http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/a0015646 --------------C67AD7529A60F4702D5130A2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ted,

Thank you for actually swinging this Research Group back into a discussion that has at least some research aspect to it.=C2=A0 Plea= se see below.

On 20.09.18 16:09, Ted Lemon wrote:
John, =E2=80=9Cfind it offensive=E2=80=9D is th= e wrong metric. The right metric is =E2=80=9Care harmed because the terminology= is in use.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0

There is a body of work on whether harm is incurred.=C2=A0 An example= of such a work is [1].=C2=A0

The problem comes when the terminology can be used to abuse interested parties, not when interested parties would prefer not to hear it. This may feel like a fine distinction, but it=E2=80=99s not.

I run the attendant risks of being well outside my swimming lane,=C2=A0= at least [1] seems to confirm your view, that this harm is highly contextual.=C2=A0 I won't say that is dispositive- I'm not in that fi= eld.

[...]
What it means to be harmed by the speech is that the speech is being used as a way to harass or abuse. For example, the dominatrix comment mentioned earlier.=C2=A0 Or the u= se of the term by one co-worker to harass another co-worker, using the technical meaning as cover.

This is the case that does bother me, as I wrote earlier.=C2=A0 If th= at is an isolated case, I think we should treat it as such, but if it is emblematic of substantial abuse, that is quite a different matter.=C2=A0 Contrary to other people's assertions, that case has no= t been made.=C2=A0 One can easily find an extreme example here.=C2=A0 T= here are simply some words and phrases that we would never use in either formal or informal communications, precisely because they are unambiguously offensive where their use demonstrates intent.=C2=A0 An= d then there is everything else.=C2=A0 I don't know how much research h= as been done in this space, but if that is the work this RG wants to do, alright.=C2=A0

I would hope that we don't lose sight of other work as well in the process, like the tussles occurring over special access/encryption/... to name but one.

Eliot

[1] Jay, T. (2009). Do offensive words harm people? Psychology, Public Policy, and Law, 15(2), 81-101.
http://dx.= doi.org/10.1037/a0015646
--------------C67AD7529A60F4702D5130A2-- --oIV9LUHZkiqvlBS88jOVMLGGyxv7b3Nbk-- --vSa447xUa0h8u9yfP0GAvylwj22h1NeVo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAlujv04ACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejNilQgAsW9sQGK+BRYBF0qsWdIwTvXUwVqxXp178IXgeU53fTZK2Kk5RQGcmRgc WrmJeVw1IFX1s2eoLmU5sbpm2J3JCHmRkQfkC4Ff9pSOBIPEcZrG2iDBBLUQZ9DF dIRxabIrdDhJj52t0E9Jb/sCdvX1D3m3/2OLRvHPvZrcrLaw+S2lnTXST9qr+Igb QDypXuReuBYlSjpUQ88t8WdGH12xpmbnVsCzudhlrG/Ph7ZmXBT7DzIaY9GOsWYI oxHG+5yJGEEfCV5lb5md6Mx/dq+frXKG+pVlCYMF7yY+7NUk79pIZiAw4gQP0RL5 L3r0pAVUkZFLI8vdsm91+5egWzQBcw== =J3UI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vSa447xUa0h8u9yfP0GAvylwj22h1NeVo-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 10:29:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82275130E13 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:29:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0zuJXt6zV3Um for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls5.std.com [192.74.137.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65AAC12426A for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8KHSq7J001860; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:28:54 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8KHSkgB017640; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:28:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <23459.55502.270454.915475@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:28:46 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Ted Lemon Cc: Mark Perkins , Eliot Lear , Fred Baker , Corinne Cath , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever , Alp Toker In-Reply-To: References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> <45632038.185213.1537421073005@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:29:07 -0000 On September 20, 2018 at 09:56 mellon@fugue.com (Ted Lemon) wrote: > I don=E2=80=99t see why they would be a representative population sa= mple. If a study > were to be designed, serious thought would have to be put into this.= =C2=A0 Re: polling ISOC chapters Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not have an ISOC chapter. --=20 -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheW= orld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Thu Sep 20 10:42:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BCF130E13 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:42:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:42:22 -0700 (PDT) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> <45632038.185213.1537421073005@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.55502.270454.915475@gargle.gargle.HOWL> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: <3a4c7a9a-812b-b2cf-6cbc-75e8d095b2bf@nomountain.net> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 09:42:21 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <23459.55502.270454.915475@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:42:27 -0000 On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com wrote: > Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not > have an ISOC chapter. We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks from the very large indigenous community up here to have some views on this that might be worth listening to. Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis From nobody Thu Sep 20 11:41:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A46130DD9 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 11:41:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RC0nB19Vz01q for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls5.std.com [192.74.137.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 567E0128CFD for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8KIeYZv022861; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:40:36 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8KIeSoW019170; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:40:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:40:28 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Nalini J Elkins Cc: "bzs\@theworld.com" , Hrpc In-Reply-To: <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:41:07 -0000 For the purpose of this list I tend towards mechanism rather than policy. That is, how protocols might be used, abused, or even invented to help others implement policy both good and bad. But it is true that one needs some vision of the goals to effect that, so broader context is appropriate. In my ideal world tagging of content would be done by independent organizations funded largely by those with an interest, such as the large social media organizations. This should encourage commercial efforts to provide end-users ways to implement this tagging according to their own desires such as we've seen with "Net Nannies". Following the film analogy this is basically how the US' Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) works. The MPAA was formed in 1922 and established a system of film ratings in 1968. Its importance arose largely after films gained sound and thus greater popularity which produced a hue and outcry regarding film content In reaction to congressional threats to regulate film content the film industry formed the so-called Hays Code headed by former postmaster-general Will H Hays and major studios agreed to abide by that code. The code was largely abandoned piecemeal in the 1950s and on but other self-regulation was continually being adopted (e.g., standards on racism and sexism, romanticization of tobacco smoking.) Films were rarely outright banned only "tagged" with a rating which was publicly displayed in advertisements and theater entrances. Many theater owners refused to show films with certain ratings probably both because they didn't want their theater identified with such films -- thus grew "art houses", theaters which specialized in such films -- and their income potential was often not very good. I remember, and perhaps this is still true, the Roman Catholic Church publishing lists of films which their adherents should not see. A friend's mother would pull it out and carefully check it before letting any of her children go to a film and sometimes we had to change our plans. The point is that by and large this approach seems to have worked for films though there's a contingent who would dispute that. What has significantly changed is we seem to have lately broadened what might be deemed offensive and in need of some sort of controls. Typical sources of offensiveness in films, TV, etc were: 1. Sexually explicit 2. Amoral such as romanticizing crime 3. Extreme depictions of violence or gore 4. Offensive language There were others. Today we seem to have, or at least have fine-tuned: 1. Cultural and gender stereotyping and/or offensiveness 2. Promotion or depiction of unpopular political or religious ideas 3. Fake news by some standard 4. Attempts to influence elections by some standard 5. Smoking tobacco (not just ads but mere depiction) 6. Bullying, which tends to require an individual target 7. Harrassment 8. Commercial fraud 9. Unwanted exposure to sexually explicit or violent content Of course commercial fraud has always been a concern but with spam and phishing etc there has been a marked attempt to be more pro-active. The point is this is a huge, broad, and culturally-relative set of concerns trying to regulate something as vast as the billions on the internet with few central points of control. I believe that any attempt to provide mechanism has to take into account this vastness. Which is why I see mechanisms such as tagging content as potentially much more productive than trying to create taxonomies of content which some believe needs control. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Thu Sep 20 13:16:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7935129C6A for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:16:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ESAW2Cj3Gc3z for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic310-28.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic310-28.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.186.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0FD41200D6 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:16:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537474600; bh=B+NpZrm8nSMwZEqBiEW2gmlxUO5p/UVeBdI4beENI+8=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=R9D3q4l+UiHWygERkgEzqDqQfID2IUOlEEzjqlptJd+I44L89hNnLiqE5tBpSHPBsqvXbwjtx/BtQ6UIFOq1t8AbGuEbHBoZHDUD5QgTnKtrdPxjJlSCXDg5ssk/qEEk7RlO2No29B6cf80rwpTA01RrqrBRP9cGUAh1lJar87BlRTSxfLBnWL7V5/Prc0m1SdvMHz1l+xshDx/SZeu67y1qL3DXVxgZPZO/p+1uEiqECEkMkWSVO3oA31T8bQWp82K5uVg4SWvec9fjG974Rb/ma5xqEENe1CIzN/zjyJdZtkbK9uJXCK6BAcPnzOu7x+MoRrdLCRFywkmoG+XAXg== X-YMail-OSG: zVHVSEAVM1ls5x5od_.5VeCK5clUfJJIa61C1JCxGqzYPfImgYLoRNbDsv1k4E_ ZcRzRfJTeZUq9FWbg6xpe7_hGpt9Qh_YOQ2tWKRsUnLXIyJxMPoWPrILp5Bn.CS6yGUtJdEs0FWC .taKOB3Ij7B6oGyHd4XkDH0vGxBZ1wHTFObDBQ43x2Xy1gsM449z2a9YvgbXjYTFi8_LePlxYBcd 2ZDMz0Ymv27CeQUN9nc782FdZxvo5q7LiU4y7ydMo8bc8JupXHuDPkoVq5BYgx8raRAGpMNSZUp7 sbyeQyq7mKPeRM6h1Xk93iTQBmTGMTjBmK52mtyifS4Ir9gPMAx9Ovlfs3Xg5vBW5zOzvoifv7ff xRMqitlRUx3.H4wQht8q8kpRuKUr19XUQDPm9FDZD4I9MyW17dX.UufQ7w4ff7EFohBFX6boLJpR qrDO7j3GKMO0PbL0fHhTAjSvCobZq80J_Ayec.lBE5cX_n20TYcYY0mZE8rP.pjzOcZvL9Cfsxk5 2IjQH4i3ALa3kVlEbJcaXmUmU_SwTWIUSqzVJ.kNjWQooM2HQNgAcgIWJWDRQWgWIpkAb9DlFhyc d9S9GTtcQffmpGIyJG9zWEFE93lV0zF19fDDbEjUNZfq.uOdgGpL.J8KMHDyTxxG_LpFtRX_XBv5 Gs67DOg7AaLAMJn_7LmCTROExFYQ8JDIonkL5XuphvBa6856l79wW0aoLUeQaCB0jTcaNdGtjVJG _42zaxIndqHpybrKXZpWjLZFI07EdiUPhO2mqxD4guDsEVk2Z0qMQIG6Wblufy6bgj7LEDUB1fyJ uw5RvTuNUBbryxwm3DuNG4XWkEEKwjWim39T29e4Iu4IvWQe7BXdws4q7Cawydfg7r5BdmIxdwe1 2AQeaPJ_R3UrMQX1tkZwqLG62nxhIhmBJydUrdVJ4cQY6dqPrm21q5X4vk.TpDO5T2HrXU5IVGvE p.GjyEoappmS.JdQ2ezB3TQeIIHi.Ef16un56Wq4lZM6NuGSI7AAaElpurRmaFBHUKfYW5NRBAg- - Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 20:16:40 +0000 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 20:16:39 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: "bzs@theworld.com" Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_568257_306825111.1537474599208" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12473 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 20:16:43 -0000 ------=_Part_568257_306825111.1537474599208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barry, >Which is why I see mechanisms such as tagging content as potentially >much more productive than trying to create taxonomies of content which >some believe needs control. =C2=A0I think we will get stuck on taxonomy but let's follow your train of = thought andsee where we get to.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I am just thinking out loud her= e. Let's just take web sites.=C2=A0 =C2=A0We can think about content on platfo= rms later. So, we need the following: 1.=C2=A0 First, some group to do the classification.=C2=A0 We call this: Cl= assifying_Group.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They use a methodology for assigning a rating = to the=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0web site.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Call this: Content_classification. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Values: 1=3D no problem to 5=3D really horrible. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0How they come by the rating (or the methodology) is TBD= . 2.=C2=A0 Then we need some means of associating the classification with the= content =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What might we do? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a.=C2=A0 We could have an IPv6 Destination Option which= had a field: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Content_classification =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Values: 1=3D no problem to 5=3D really horrible. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0How does that field get populated?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maybe th= ere is an initial setting when you do the DNS lookup.=C2=A0 Let's say each = DNS server knows=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about the rating of the web site. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0b.=C2=A0 We could have a browser plug in.=C2=A0 =C2=A0M= aybe each browser knows about the rating of the web site. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0c.=C2=A0 Now, this is all quite crude.=C2=A0 I am sure = you can think of a hundred ways to break / spoof these methods.=C2=A0 As I = say, I am just=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 thinking out loud.=C2=A0 I= am pretty sure that if we put our collective heads together, then we could= come up with some way=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to "tag" a web sit= e.=C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 So, I think the really hard problem here is what methodology / tax= onomy will the classifying_group use to rate web sites?=C2=A0 =C2=A0That is= , what=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is the criteria whereby one web site is a "1" and= another is a "5"? Thoughts? Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 ------=_Part_568257_306825111.1537474599208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= font face=3D"HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande= , sans-serif" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537473618354_12136">Barry,

>= ;Which is why I see mechanisms such as tagging content as potentially
>much more= productive than trying to create taxonomies of content which
>some believe need= s control.
 
I think we will get stuck on taxonomy but = let's follow your train of thought and
see where we get to.   I am just t= hinking out loud here.

Let's just t= ake web sites.   We can think about content on platforms later.

So, we need the following:

1.  First, some group to do the classif= ication.  We call this: Classifying_Group.   They use a meth= odology for assigning a rating to the
     web site.   

     Call this: Cont= ent_classification.

     Values: = 1=3D no problem to 5=3D really horrible.

=      How they come by the rating (or the methodology) is TBD= .

2.  Then we need some = means of associating the classification with the content

     What might we do?

     a.  We could have an = IPv6 Destination Option which had a field:

     Content_classification

     Values: 1=3D no problem to 5=3D really = horrible.

=
     How d= oes that field get populated?   Maybe there is an initial setting= when you do the DNS lookup.  Let's say each DNS server knows
    &n= bsp;about the rating of the web site.


     b.  We could have a browse= r plug in.   Maybe each browser knows about the rating of the web= site.


     c.  Now, this is a= ll quite crude.  I am sure you can think of a hundred ways to break / = spoof these methods.  As I say, I am just
          t= hinking out loud.  I am pretty sure that if we put our collective head= s together, then we could come up with some way
          = to "tag" a web site. 

3. = So, I think the really hard problem here is what methodology / taxonomy wi= ll the classifying_group use to rate web sites?   That is, what
  &n= bsp;  is the criteria whereby one web site is a "1" and another is a "= 5"?

Thoughts?


Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
= Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

<= br>
------=_Part_568257_306825111.1537474599208-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 13:35:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED6311252B7 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:35:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RNCGQnI6K7kw for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 469AB1200D7 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840E7BE53; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:35:18 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pH67Q3LjKjHD; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:35:17 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2E7F5BE51; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:35:17 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1537475717; bh=Ou7Rbht+9NA9W/nxLuWnYhMyY5MEZvXjr1SJp2S3QFc=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=DXiiiKZtmTkl5sPOV6H6zGushVxtAYSuBcrHenGhPH1b2AFuCz1TGwzaxLBccvocG nzPWhGRY3D16tzvPCInB33BUvOByKx7Wmd+NvUb0vbAyq9W4ieWfhCnb4vDIKG1cNY wdfqe6Yqd+J1HiIYvoWG9GTA1cGyPYSOOEMt8rzo= To: Nalini J Elkins , "bzs@theworld.com" Cc: Hrpc References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nuOrhR6u7IhQLPKS53xtK6Rnu3gQLoRla" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 20:35:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --nuOrhR6u7IhQLPKS53xtK6Rnu3gQLoRla Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wFD4wj5na51KdKIKRDdcukyynRaD0QT6h"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Nalini J Elkins , "bzs@theworld.com" Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> --wFD4wj5na51KdKIKRDdcukyynRaD0QT6h Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D913189C113DB0E2A58D4F04" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D913189C113DB0E2A58D4F04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, Sorry to keep picking holes but... On 20/09/18 21:16, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > 1. First, some group to do the classification. We call this: > Classifying_Group. They use a methodology for assigning a rating to > the web site. Web sites are not static things. They change all the time, esp the related advertising content. And even the "primary" content for some web sites with lots of user-generated content changes all the time (e.g. discussion boards). (*) So I don't think any scheme for classification based on ideas of static content is that useful here, if what we're after are ideas as to how or if we might change protocols to address the real issues with centralisation etc. If what someone is after is a way to regulate operators of services based on some non technical view of what they do, then I'm also unsure that that needs to affect protocols that are broadly used. In passing I'd also note that labelling systems (e.g. in multi level security) have always been horrendously expensive and, if not then often brittle, so I'd be surprised if such a generic labelling scheme for protocols would fly. But there may be some proposals like that in the literature if someone wants to root them out. S. (*) The same is true of many forms of what I guess is being called "content" in this thread - which is why I didn't reply to your earlier email - I'm not sure myself how to classify protocol payload in a way that's at all useful for this discussion and even if we did I'm not sure that calling it "content" is useful. I am thinking a bit about it though. --------------D913189C113DB0E2A58D4F04 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdbkkLeDitDGwHvsQ9+Ew1fzvhe08UfIRDD/sqVESIw1gcokbSWCCfOnG9GoUIrJKFo9ArhvA1d1yA4/mhcnLoc= X-Received: by 2002:a50:b642:: with SMTP id c2-v6mr6638089ede.288.1537476031992; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:40:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 16:40:21 -0400 Message-ID: To: Nalini J Elkins Cc: "bzs@theworld.com" , Hrpc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bcdadc05765388ea" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 20:40:36 -0000 --000000000000bcdadc05765388ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Nalini, In many respects, Bob Kahn (yes, that Bob Kahn) has provided the DOI platform for this kind of content tagging. See www.doi.org. Bob's platform is additionally attractive because you can use multiple rating tables for the same object. It also probably the most ubiquitous of the tagging platforms because of its use for IPR assertions. Like all these schemes, however, the challenge is getting users to use them. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 4:16 PM Nalini J Elkins < nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> wrote: > Barry, > > >Which is why I see mechanisms such as tagging content as potentially > >much more productive than trying to create taxonomies of content which > >some believe needs control. > > I think we will get stuck on taxonomy but let's follow your train of > thought and > see where we get to. I am just thinking out loud here. > > Let's just take web sites. We can think about content on platforms later. > > So, we need the following: > > 1. First, some group to do the classification. We call this: > Classifying_Group. They use a methodology for assigning a rating to the > web site. > > Call this: Content_classification. > > Values: 1= no problem to 5= really horrible. > > How they come by the rating (or the methodology) is TBD.. > > 2. Then we need some means of associating the classification with the > content > > What might we do? > > a. We could have an IPv6 Destination Option which had a field: > > Content_classification > > Values: 1= no problem to 5= really horrible. > > How does that field get populated? Maybe there is an initial > setting when you do the DNS lookup. Let's say each DNS server knows > about the rating of the web site. > > > b. We could have a browser plug in. Maybe each browser knows about > the rating of the web site. > > > c. Now, this is all quite crude. I am sure you can think of a > hundred ways to break / spoof these methods. As I say, I am just > thinking out loud. I am pretty sure that if we put our > collective heads together, then we could come up with some way > to "tag" a web site. > > 3. So, I think the really hard problem here is what methodology / > taxonomy will the classifying_group use to rate web sites? That is, what > is the criteria whereby one web site is a "1" and another is a "5"? > > Thoughts? > > > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --000000000000bcdadc05765388ea Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Nalini,

I= n many respects, Bob Kahn (yes, that Bob Kahn) has provided the DOI platfor= m for this kind of content tagging. See www.= doi.org. Bob's platform is additionally attractive because you can = use multiple rating tables for the same object.=C2=A0 It also probably the = most ubiquitous of the tagging platforms because of its use for IPR asserti= ons.

Like all these sche= mes, however, the challenge is getting users to use them.


On Th= u, Sep 20, 2018, 4:16 PM Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> wrote:
Barry,

>Which is why I see mechanisms such as tagging c= ontent as potentially
>much more productive than try= ing to create taxonomies of content which
>some be= lieve needs control.
=C2=A0
I think we will get stuck on taxonomy but let's= follow your train of thought and
see where we get to.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0I am just thinking out loud here.

Let's just take web site= s.=C2=A0 =C2=A0We can think about content on platforms later.

<= div id=3D"m_1336701737247069665yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537473618354_12134">So, w= e need the following:

1.=C2=A0 First, some group to do the classific= ation.=C2=A0 We call this: Classifying_Group.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They use a method= ology for assigning a rating to the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0web site.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Call this: Content_classifica= tion.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Values: 1=3D no problem to 5=3D re= ally horrible.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0How they come by t= he rating (or the methodology) is TBD..

2.=C2=A0 Then we need = some means of associating the classification with the content

<= div id=3D"m_1336701737247069665yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537473618354_12134">=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What might we do?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a.=C2=A0 = We could have an IPv6 Destination Option which had a field:

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0Content_classification

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Values: 1=3D= no problem to 5=3D really horrible.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0How does th= at field get populated?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maybe there is an initial setting when = you do the DNS lookup.=C2=A0 Let's say each DNS server knows
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about the rating of the web site.

<= /div>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0b.=C2=A0 We could have a= browser plug in.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maybe each browser knows about the rating of = the web site.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0c.=C2=A0 Now, this is all qu= ite crude.=C2=A0 I am sure you can think of a hundred ways to break / spoof= these methods.=C2=A0 As I say, I am just
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 thinking out loud.=C2=A0 I am pretty sure that if we put our= collective heads together, then we could come up with some way
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to "tag" a web site.=C2=A0
=
3.=C2=A0 So, I think the really hard problem here is what methodology= / taxonomy will the classifying_group use to rate web sites?=C2=A0 =C2=A0T= hat is, what
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is the criteria whereby one w= eb site is a "1" and another is a "5"?

Thoughts?=


Thanks,

Nalin= i Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethest= ack.com
(831) 659-8360


_______________________________________________<= br> hrpc mailing list
hrpc@= irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc<= br>
--000000000000bcdadc05765388ea-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 13:53:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1BB1129C6A for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:53:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MLQgnsM_QUNA for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic307-17.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-17.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50D95128CE4 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:53:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537476828; bh=6+e62quhQJj54ov7eSs1byLgw/h0eR1nMijueeLks4Y=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=Awo2e844zmF4Lhi12KozYCBRgq4CVsO7YGx/iYXZ/LbM/WoJKNDpYhU2kFD9arpcSV7W+mpZxiljESqG2R3gHN0S46kczmSLyrtmKhNul5RgYL/A7AsCqT8IuSEYZXBq/54ovpFVeFs9U5OrzMZBn8NCdyIk7YHL7UGxPVEfte5ho69Z19alq0TTE7DgSU0Q3SGWLGSb8rAlr51E7uxyE0uRxaVgHoKcGqG5adeXNoJ5WIUT/yIm406Wf5BvaF44U2/BjEnFx3OkLzk8lRF4SNGQNHCgGQ0/6vBwQ72wthcuhDL8bT5e46eLJ/qODk6RG+eXy5j6GUiSfiTSz7z6bg== X-YMail-OSG: vjcEI0AVM1mEiAP3W7X6vvxPXDI.7Mw.XhgOKR0QUCy8u5KCEkduVjDkEbIfuxQ UFa2jpt1JKwljPTBvZLMs7kAX6cDAEWBtZppCYMNFrxq9DQAQLjdqlxyTXv8Ve9PeatXCiYYG3B9 SqFrYgOFpIsmDJioP4s.jm4ra4kL4SJDkxY5wujKOZaxieRlkUaNEMTkpiPwaxR4kjfY67rRbzIM URT2Y4VWW8Op_pVTG3t0APifP7pFPlJJqxREMMcjMTGSZoZPMrVSXSv9FRg_GTCMpyph5PB_5nS5 T0xK5K078my1amxZE_z1P2jRyQBbNb3AtVh.eydgkD6YmcD5GJPEC84sY2GK7lTKcJ2U47yzYmKa wgoXktsrGxvy_r50XQ7h8RBrj.hPzcSAwVjx7z7E6SNpyLlTMqYU6iWZqs8JxkMHSINo5HEMGTsz f8qdAGVqTEAALQvRM2Qby3ORqewcsOdibQtpJHQECsSZc.zY8k50BREwt7h2J8x5PNkHYG1EW6_x JHc91DOKR8y9HY4.FVNXnyIRMSA3nuo.v4.JTOqW52j7z9DlphRT2PBzCm5N1WFKOPvrlwFApVPa cpRtkzKoSRZ.kDC5dNamO7ju_22cn4xloou7EE3tPIKh8aavwd320qrde19r7QSJeX56L4gesrAx ktXpy.f.ofFqvoNmDDt9oTv1uzp7xFbQJZWWwB3WVOJNn4yCCEUCOFn44KRETMQi07CT1mCc3cDT SMAGstEd9BZQZBhnbt.08vVitCzzpE7YT573JbBorEdBfl_ps7F588nDOWJPgwYoKlyuDkF7psC3 3z6Zr4I0pI8Q7wtwiL7yKZDMunvhNPnyforYUH4nx3JomsiK4L1f8mEO9MncsaAAXvYPjOJNk2kx HpaDgKqIlRarc3Or3oVZ3O2ebgFyrb9WuSdKvB5RHUEtTEaHBEbUQSM4PmD5vk_dsapfIr0LJyjm CzHRvm.ESIaZm5YplVhCDLLyW379LCDbuBkbmEI1sVc9K0g6MHu8QLFA_rZSPngkReQJ.ydbm6Mp 7lgXuWQ-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 20:53:48 +0000 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 20:53:44 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Stephen Farrell , "bzs@theworld.com" Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <1692241569.591628.1537476824548@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_591627_895883996.1537476824546" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12473 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 20:53:51 -0000 ------=_Part_591627_895883996.1537476824546 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen, >Web sites are not static things. They change all the time, esp >the related advertising content. And even the "primary" content >for some web sites with lots of user-generated content changes >all the time (e.g. discussion boards). (*) Yes, that could all be true but somehow search engines manageto keep up pre= tty well with changing content on web sites. But, I am interested to see what Barry thinks.=C2=A0 I was expandingon his = idea of tagging web sites.=C2=A0 I am wondering if what I saidis what he wa= s thinking of.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 ------=_Part_591627_895883996.1537476824546 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stephen,

>Web sites = are not static things. They change all the time, esp
>the related advertising content. And even the "primary"= content
= >for some web sites with = lots of user-generated content changes
>all the time (e.g. discussion boards). (*)
<= div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537476629660_6553">
<= /div>
Yes, t= hat could all be true but somehow search engines manage
to keep up pretty = well with changing content on web sites.

But, I am interested to see= what Barry thinks.  I was expanding
on his idea of tagging web sites.  I am wondering if what I = said
is what h= e was thinking of.   


Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside= Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

------=_Part_591627_895883996.1537476824546-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 14:01:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1E9129C6A; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:01:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FILL_THIS_FORM=0.001, FILL_THIS_FORM_LONG=2, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, MONEY_FORM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j-ok_Gm4TuAI; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BECA130DF6; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g364x-00061I-PI; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 23:01:41 +0200 From: Gurshabad Grover Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=gurshabad@cis-india.org; keydata= xsFNBFriroIBEADfyDpCD8eborMUMXKtZzjo4t2KzrAlUVYgE/TFtrwUP+4Xw4dzakDIzST8 sVYmlXIWhM5NBBTZSQ190vsxrkbi0xxLcXYM2olZEtqkJ8zONZeZLBeGvcfMymtHqD4jHwYb Zm7OXnS45fWDL+HOoMP/VCwEn098rYfnllIkYQD1Gc28Ig+ywjGg8y5p0qMmmmhm2ckgLjnG MJX8t273MSc8wsn/UYH922yif3MQXmrzqgnRl9hRzf90SKqAw38bw7wccb55pIItloKYsi0r zYBKJSOPXn91Z21TpOSTy21M0MZYEAlDn1zeea+q8TggfHNWxOXoKrIm1pqZFRz0k+8i2siJ AHf8bRm/fhukA6szZ6b2nNPxjkAmOv9zvGu6RZGbmeLvQYVBSSnZ67ayZrkKwn7KIyAV6hQM /bVnD8eEZ2tZ0S8lxoZFYSNeMGt2b6WelFZO97/LbjxaJUHd9K8g5H0MwqN1NXoBxRwllVRC 3sVHVoWTBqnKo8qplzvQEAto69PpvuxxKTOFEJeQqmn1b/fo3sLRb4YiIg8Ax+Np7Huzzjk6 vKKgpIwIN7yEUj/ReWi/UA/W4wSg3XkcqTf7h73crnN/1At0PdgozbDV2UbcApaldStP4DfG UiQl0/7MiYLKapDDuSahmoeH3xrNnrzS9BAfuGHezzDbMyPLXQARAQABzSpHdXJzaGFiYWQg R3JvdmVyIDxndXJzaGFiYWRAY2lzLWluZGlhLm9yZz7CwX0EEwEIACcFAlriroICGyMFCQlm AYAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQrbl/X+ubfC7/bQ//YQv7zqQE433xxsN/ 3GYKoOFccBy3WvV4DxrTskJ3n3k5lfcZolbc8TQksQOTzyerNt2ZA7fsGZa7eFSW+xR4Yq3/ C9o+5FOoHGhyZhb+x17MILhmyvyUNSj7SdKrRISgurMbV2Vv8LxmTcdrK6CdFF6JLH+opzU1 NlRKwZqROPgbYZEB2QFIUbGfgh2I5AXNyV2XbT7fagfkHk+v9AUV7POP2H1+AZ1xq6iFTm2o 9ufNZsp2bInsDohcVBKC3aH2cnFMjvIXpNoUOx8vb5A2xW0aBUTTJDB/uZw53WOg3kehrCNb ZkML3FnDZLRuu1e8DSWmwk5YIoDzt5bMCgfUwb0C6Q+JuM8lC+8CEEa9qamLc+fhvFAzcrWp VWuSaVeLdhe5NxmtlRYNZdGuKy6sRHjwsEWlwzRylhm74fiDR3aA1eIFsfmYLd4z+i1Fp23Y dHJf7/Gor2CmOxphog9DEA9WCuORXfx4De7hoMKwW4gWKw1A8B12Cv4EOkXmCsWsOnfDEarr 2Yl6elxkhQRfKjAesXb0cezRzZgwsWIsbeYsuWFF7Xi6IzUJ27lxU3p5PcyY8O8aDYOn+pu0 YFJ7s3u2VRRgptVZJmkcN3WTApXSHY8fGl5xAakM/bqFJj9uj5zlMnFN2EplC6/mQkfYfy2f siaGTP/GQV4OSuOeuMLOwU0EWuKuggEQAJ4lAzB72gHw4+rbyxmQNNVmvgYVZPjFtO/MQdYi x1QwRP/gxxqPqTd/ZwQvmPGzXRKw10B7uKSRk6YP12+IG0mXJwHGp9q5CWJE0XNGqX3UWbAc KIzxqPNpsf8e6Bv7jdW0YwLBxJ+RW0NNL6uAxz0sr2frbnS+EZB3cU+zOZzp/9YfTUZO2lxF NzgJoErKe/HLp7aBeJXBBcwO0LQlIT80rTZx2KihBa/Ww/y9E9gV/HacJu/Ncb6E/G3e4xGj 9w9L+UW43q01wy+FSUKy9FLc7D40WqQsj8SXZEpl84SyLcJRoX3mtj59bX2SAN2VB2BAksTu qCh00IcIUGfyHziu5PwUWYM96gOhDSocP4wSeiQ8TwLzaffllz2qhdI296a9lCIYIeWVytEd NU9jJ3RbzXAgE0pnDauNXDaQv1FS5jYi8rlslJUxKnrS69BFNjM5RqQ16Cm0C4rKL7/a8wHC r4VjcjSCM8Lzv8YOOitJ9Yt4Y8SVfO5s3YvxcdSr56nX0W3B1kGbG1GpqWTzOgXzGF5bIsbV 7SPecwUs9ShvmLmZzDUxIQ68n4zj3lMZn5I+pP+Ew6nAAiuSmKdr5cygnCH/NVJzil07t+X4 uR6oKHBhuMFYF1c6Wxk36m+EZz5ZHFaT4rN0WDIJdAEqRzD0Z56V6ansDF8y+ksh0SHlABEB AAHCwWUEGAEIAA8FAlriroICGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQrbl/X+ubfC50rhAAloTaq/fZC1gtiVtU wOB+00gEkjgmzt+rLkW+l2EySTST7tje57W83UZwzCX746B2O//Bqardxz9R1Vr0VFiwHA8g 3qeBqPqiv1WoQch/iZ5d/1MxK4A9xDag1uyqLR8RuGlZ8lATmcP3IabKiuiBV4MlFZ7V2Ib6 5ToPf28xxSyjMzTjQObIG0e009uHlu2z+iQVshLyoyVVAOWWa88D6iuBDC/EtBRjlpjLAjuR YhWVYX6KHdVUijKMHN2RqjpX5O2wPL7NcMY/wsTq7EteUeI75hxFvargRXkEt1XR8t52LC0u IE2OjpzY5re/ROUbfsqL8trjAOrSJ+Fx5H8AYl9JaoVxohhxDZgNtgNtPbh/8Nnlf9daj/bh lZcTBO98XLQwMnyHGPdyhIodpWPq2C09Ys3TkQsbcdMMB1pqnEK5Vz1zIKkEEX7QVsLdrz7C 2CFsauc/9PHj+4njCHslXtzBOiVu5FXTnbCwPrLJs5iEUkUCb6qtE/2mSCTrAanzOTTOmqiM cnNTI1Tj0ht462S9VypppQnKCv8shGxXG7BadZTv+pNCA/WfB2kk1sS3ZwB0wBWX4p41fxs+ ArM9ew2SzQ/vBrEfO7ljPfZZmBqH4t/vgAZBnOtTxCGlPEIJqiMqtGHRqIqpiR20QfxEUuXI MfMfa9QJpisdNmqoUyc= To: regext@ietf.org Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" , hr-rt@irtf.org Message-ID: <528ea38a-7e8f-b425-4c49-71c83694c193@cis-india.org> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 02:31:31 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sgtzh0IlpNNU7hoFvRDPTQVuuLZxpUDsw" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 5a7ab29fa651aee4c569e25635c94281 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:01:46 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --sgtzh0IlpNNU7hoFvRDPTQVuuLZxpUDsw Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="9bnls7SyRBIJo2p83B1uM51Z9QDe3H3aQ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Gurshabad Grover To: regext@ietf.org Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" , hr-rt@irtf.org Message-ID: <528ea38a-7e8f-b425-4c49-71c83694c193@cis-india.org> Subject: Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode --9bnls7SyRBIJo2p83B1uM51Z9QDe3H3aQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Hi all, Firstly, thanks to James Gould and the regext working group for developing draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode. As part of efforts in the Human Rights Protocol Considerations (HRPC) group, I have reviewed the human rights considerations (using RFC 8280 as a framework) in draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-03. Please find the review below. Hope that some of these concerns can be addressed moving forward. HR Review: Verification Code Extension for the EPP =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= An assessment of human rights considerations in draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-03. Introduction ------------ The =E2=80=98Verification Code Extension for the Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP)=E2=80=99 ([VCEPP], hereinafter also referred to as the =E2= =80=9Cdraft=E2=80=9D) describes an extension in the EPP object mappings which supports adding a verification code provided by a third-party known as the Verification Service Provider (VSP). If the registrant=E2=80=99s data is not =E2=80=9C= verified=E2=80=9D by the VSP, it may be prohibited from requesting the execution of EPP transform commands. This is a review of the human rights considerations in the the draft. (See [RFC 8280], =E2=80=98Research Into Human Rights Protocol Considerati= ons=E2=80=99). We believe that the draft does not make adequate considerations for human rights: The implementation of the proposed extension will impact domain registrants=E2=80=99 right to freedom of expression, right to free= dom of assembly and association, and right to privacy. Human Rights Considerations --------------------------- # Privacy ([RFC8280], section 6.2.2) =46rom [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CCould your protocol improve data minimization?= =E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CDoes your document identify potentially sensitive data logged [.= =2E.] and/or for how long that data needs to be retained for technical reasons?= =E2=80=9D The draft leaves the precise data shared with the VSP =E2=80=9Cup to the policies of the locality=E2=80=9D and outside the scope of the draft. In = the 'domain-registrant' type of verification, both the registrant contact information and domain name are sent to the VSP. The registrant contact information is sensitive personal information, including name, address, telephone number and email address. [RFC5733] The draft notes that, =E2=80=9Cthe data verified by the VSP MUST be store= d by the VSP along with the generated verification code to address any compliance issues.=E2=80=9D The information is retained and =E2=80=9Cmay = be accessed at a later time.=E2=80=9D Registrants whose personal information will be shared in this way have no control over these aspects, which negatively impacts their privacy. # Content Agnosticism ([RFC8280], section 6.2.3) =46rom [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CDoes your protocol make decisions based on the= payload [...]? Does your protocol prioritize certain content or services over others [...]?=E2=80=9D Section 1 of the draft states that the =E2=80=9CVerification Service Prov= ider (VSP) is a certified party to verify that data is in compliance with the policies of a locality.=E2=80=9D Therefore, the extension facilitates the= prioritization of certain individuals based on how the VSP judges whether the registrants=E2=80=99 data is compliant. Registrants=E2=80=99 = data which is not in =E2=80=9Ccompliance=E2=80=9D with the local regulations will not r= eceive a verification code from the VSP, which gives the VSP the power to restrict individuals from registering/modifying a domain name, and limits their right to freedom of expression. # Censorship Resistance ([RFC8280], section 6.2.6) =46rom [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CCan your protocol contribute to filtering in s= uch a way that it could be implemented to censor data or services?=C2=A0 [...]=E2=80= =9D By design, the extension facilitates filtering: the VSP will receive the power to =E2=80=9Cverify=E2=80=9D data on arbitrary grounds when determin= ing whether registrant data is in =E2=80=9Ccompliance=E2=80=9D with local regulations= =2E The draft also identifies examples of these scenarios: the VSP will check whether =E2=80=9Cthe domain name is not prohibited=E2=80=9D, or whether the =E2=80= =9Cregistrant is a valid individual, organization, or business in the locality.=E2=80=9D On = these grounds, the VSP can accept or reject attempts to register domain names. Thus, the extension explicitly provides filtering and censorship abilities to the VSP, which are inimical to the registrants=E2=80=99 free= dom of expression. # Open Standards ([RFC8280], section 6.2.7) =46rom [RFC8280], =E2=80=9CAre you aware of any patents that would preven= t your standard from being fully implemented [RFC6701] [RFC8179]?=E2=80=9D There is an IPR declaration filed by Verisign Inc. for an older version of the draft mentioning the relevant [PATENT]. The declaration facilitates mostly open development, giving minimal assertion rights over the license for Verisign Inc. =46rom [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CIs your protocol fully documented in such a wa= y that it could be easily implemented, improved, built upon, and/or further developed?=E2=80=9D Several key details that will form the complete mechanism for the verification code are not included in the draft (as it only describes the extension), but have been offered in the [PATENT]. This includes a description of the grace period within which =E2=80=9Cthe requirement set= of verification codes may be sent before the object becomes non-compliant=E2= =80=9D, and a clear depiction of the flow of the request detailed in Fig. 1 of the [PATENT]. # Decentralisation ([RFC8280], section 6.2.14) =46rom [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CWhat is the potential for discrimination again= st users of your protocol?=E2=80=9D There is immense potential for discrimination against registrants whose data will be subject to =E2=80=9Cverification=E2=80=9D by the VSP. The pr= oposed extension provides the VSP powers to discriminate against registrants based on the information it receives, which may include names and addresses, and which may be further compared to other =E2=80=9Clocal data= sources=E2=80=9D [VCEEPP] to indicate legal sex, religious affiliation, o= r ethnicity. =46rom [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CCan your protocol be used to negatively implic= ate users (e.g., incrimination, accusation)?=E2=80=9D There is potential for negative implication: a malicious registrant may submit a request for a domain name considered legally =E2=80=9Cprohibited= =E2=80=9D by the locality, accompanied with someone else's personal information. Registrant information is sent to the VSP, an entity that may be associated with law enforcement, which creates potential misuse for false incrimination/accusation. # Reliability ([RFC8280], section 6.2.14) No fallback mechanism is specified within the draft for when the VSP is offline or unavailable. In the event that the VSP is not available to process the sent object, the registrants=E2=80=99 requests will not be pe= rformed. Similarly, when considering how long the VSP takes to process a particular request, Section 0057 of the [PATENT] states that a =E2=80=9Cp= ending compliance status indicator may indicate that the object is not compliant by [...] a time, or grace period, in which the requirement set of verification codes may be sent before the object becomes non-compliant.=E2=80=9D Therefore, if the VSP does not respond within the= grace period, the object will be considered =E2=80=9Cnon-compliant=E2=80=9D. Th= e proposed extension thus creates a problematic assumption of=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cnon-com= pliance=E2=80=9D, which is at odds with the presumption of innocence. # Confidentiality ([RFC8280], section 6.2.15) =46rom [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CWhat options exist for [...] implementers to c= hoose to limit the information shared with each entity?=E2=80=9D No such mechanisms are present which allow the registrants to limit the information that will be accessed by the VSP. # Integrity ([RFC8280], section 6.2.16) =46rom [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CDoes your protocol maintain, assure, and/or ve= rify the accuracy of payload data? Does your protocol in any way allow the data to be (intentionally or unintentionally) altered?=E2=80=9D The XML Signature maintains authenticity and integrity of the verification code. However, we are not sure whether the object can be altered by the VSP before appending the verification code to the shared object. If so, it creates the potential for false implication (also see section on Decentralisation) by the VSP. # Outcome transparency ([RFC8280], section 6.2.19) =46rom [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CAre the effects [...] fully and easily compreh= ensible [...]?=E2=80=9D As highlighted earlier in the review, many details (some out of the scope of the draft) may be opaque to registrants with the implementation of the proposed extension, including but not limited to, the exact data shared with the VSP. Additionally, as the [PATENT] notes, a =E2=80=9Crejection of the verifica= tion request may be transmitted [...]=E2=80=9D by the VSP. Therefore, while th= e proposed extension technologically facilitates a legal mechanism, there are no built-in measures that facilitate human rights related to legal transparency, remedy, or due process. For example, the VSP has no option to append an explanation for sending back a rejection. Conclusion ---------- In summary, the proposed extension in its implementation allows the VSP to have enormous censorship and discriminatory power. The arbitrary and opaque mechanism to =E2=80=9Cverify=E2=80=9D compliance with local regula= tions gives disproportionate powers to impede freedom of expression, right to privacy, freedom of association, and the right to non-discrimination. Some of the concerns highlighted in this review have already been pointed out in the past in and outside the IETF. [NLLZMSG][ART-19] We hope that the WG considers the potential adverse human rights impact that the proposed extension creates before recommending its standardisation. We understand that some of the concerns in the review do not stem purely from the proposed extension, but due to the unavoidable consequences of implementing the extension. The WG could consider adding the details of those to the draft as well, so as to make its impact on human rights clearer. References ---------- [RFC8280] ten Oever, N., Cath, C., =E2=80=9CResearch into Human Rights Pr= otocol Considerations=E2=80=9D, RFC 8280, October 2017, . [VCEEPP] Gould, J., =E2=80=9CVerification Code Extension for the Extensib= le Provisioning Protocol (EPP)=E2=80=9D, draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-= 03, April 2018, . [IP-DECL] Ward, M., =E2=80=9CVerisign Inc.'s Statement about IPR related = to draft-gould-eppext-verificationcode=E2=80=9D, October 2015, [RFC5730] Hollenbeck, S., =E2=80=9CExtensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP)= =E2=80=9D, RFC 5730, August 2009, [RFC5731] Hollenbeck, S., =E2=80=9CExtensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP)= Domain Name Mapping=E2=80=9D, RFC 5731, August 2009, . [RFC5732] Hollenbeck, S., =E2=80=9CExtensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP)= Host Mapping=E2=80=9D, RFC 5732, August 2009, . [RFC5733] Hollenbeck, S., =E2=80=9CExtensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP)= Contact Mapping=E2=80=9D, RFC 5733, August 2009, . [PATENT] Waldron, J., et al. =E2=80=9CDomain Name Operation Verification = Code Generation and/or Verification=E2=80=9D, United States Patent Serial No. 14/868,972, September 2015, . [NLLZMSG] ten Oever, N., =E2=80=9CRe: [regext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-01.txt=E2=80=9D, IETF Mail Archive: re= gext, April 2017,=C2=A0 . [ART-19] Article 19 Digital, =E2=80=9CCorporate actors must not facilitat= e human rights violations through new Chinese rules=E2=80=9D, Article 19, Decembe= r 2016, . Acknowledgements ---------------- Thanks to Paul Kurian for research inputs. Thanks to Amelia Andersdotter, Mallory Knodel, Sunil Abraham and Swaraj Barooah for their feedback. Please note that acknowledgement here does not necessarily imply endorsement of the contents of the review. -- Thank you. Gurshabad --9bnls7SyRBIJo2p83B1uM51Z9QDe3H3aQ-- --sgtzh0IlpNNU7hoFvRDPTQVuuLZxpUDsw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJbpAqsAAoJEK25f1/rm3wuSx8QAIqcWRn9gdnxueDlgD1YyHZO XdN2l90rbGVfylSxD3OlaSV+Sr0fn80mcOV5GaRWVzpfkKxh49j4uPDUdgmrCzsJ xMwSRKnurqYxic+dwAQKerf6N4hI8U/YNCWRU2Zjowz1zO67XkyvlfvYD7XSwVl1 vLynorvH5aT8zDcYFJh3djKHTFPpbS9WHj4fm9e//48DiWeIHW1b8V6wUucGN/DM qRT7AYcizfrDqIdPp+xg1ya7Fe7l8fm9mVX07hco7HxX0d03TdQb1ZahZdc4Ro+f gnRqtEJ72lQ/Qvhi+/hueXJ3IxCdKqlQqS3OeqtuwPUfHhAuE8+oNhzKANDvp8FR UrN2aR2tqct7EDbsucW9pNzL9LE98mFA1uT6P5FKewEtzj63o0UrWbgMb3FpUApP Gw5zDaWGlb1tR3rmMmRjbsjf6j21dTQ4vOn7vL4UbJpFc1EZjYxEUnK56Yxpmrdt T4OERrt3j6CnjLsGnkXznS2rDD7g82EUQ6Ut+4207e6tEmvpvIAW/N0iN86/GqQ9 a2Jb1pePAawAL8fyLlEOK5CS5/1ICFgLxqfKyliNmzgg0XWLhPscNP2H2+gJ0ibc 6cX9r1VruSMuaqwZaPRmMGcJ27GBX9xl843+agiptu7fjSHrtvfK8BSsnUoQHnuz YSB4YidBX6JYWzahZq/N =9fZx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sgtzh0IlpNNU7hoFvRDPTQVuuLZxpUDsw-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 14:14:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751C7130E19 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:14:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NqtSnE78iIW3 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9D9812F1AC for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id p52-v6so9010594eda.12 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:14:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/Ha6QzPUCvsaW6jogtOhUe46DK0tyxGs1yxDQv89hHc=; b=MJQCGhtjtKc81d0U0yLCpbaabO8Kk9qXUBwv7hfEXDiqVJM/ENMk4JOM/akIUcKdCT Whmu0kvQWcnD0NixUDosfeEepAjGCe4WMSi88KQwQs0T0+HhraahD1eYg7g3u8Dwe2Dq /mFztQSPvIyxJGxVzfgLTxg1KW3N4NJX1XYOPrxRQiNns8jHkcuVF5KNUdBJ89hlxbZR m+Bw4YXF2Zz+kA8GwJ80W8Z59UYSMR+8y0oNhSDEiQ0ojDN/uQlGZvG8GwBaB+V7HHld sbNwB1xeOkaxMyXf3zh+2ZthSO/UzCG+87CRWf6gvIXiP2e2DLowMgGLxyNrq5jbP99D jMTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/Ha6QzPUCvsaW6jogtOhUe46DK0tyxGs1yxDQv89hHc=; b=L3vbeJyyD+2XDlq+XlyC5LwCPxuKPFYa4Wk2e9C2qBt1NUPyXUKHPtYP4vqcMI73mi SY1aIXnWe8Y0+edRo6BIDP9c8XkHBNvINyZMykSu/tclMAi8M/hJkf3tWSvBQ1I87UgA dtilpyc3gymvBiq98nZRipmpazvCvouYLERxjBkzsXsXTHkRh94wtB5bhwxs4b6Gv7RF pvabItDw8U2l3SuaxoIFTEi6oYxKsiwprivVygNRm99XrEi7RaIVwIywyLdkX85OjAWC gwoVpDF1LrOHNRQuIfhKNn39jGYj8On/+cxuZsS4b5vJ5z8wwPhLh2+0BrEfbJCyu28f AmzA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51Aj5/HO8eGbf826il47w7TA9Xthx5in87TkoZFYpJEMR2V+aiSL lVICdHcWv1Xau5Z+wdtp6b0m8uhmG8ePf/qdPus= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdYf+UsyO+cAb0T44usYdtmCrcNZDi3Tf+XZyUGUgP2dIGjhBYDLzS9kx++9IHo8RV753h4Q50kzcNfolfFFpNM= X-Received: by 2002:a50:e68c:: with SMTP id z12-v6mr6505069edm.275.1537478066230; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:14:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tony Rutkowski Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:14:15 -0400 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Nalini J Elkins , "bzs@theworld.com" , Hrpc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fcd96d0576540187" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:14:30 -0000 --000000000000fcd96d0576540187 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Bob Kahn would dispute your assertion. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 4:35 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > Sorry to keep picking holes but... > > On 20/09/18 21:16, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > > 1. First, some group to do the classification. We call this: > > Classifying_Group. They use a methodology for assigning a rating to > > the web site. > > Web sites are not static things. They change all the time, esp > the related advertising content. And even the "primary" content > for some web sites with lots of user-generated content changes > all the time (e.g. discussion boards). (*) > > So I don't think any scheme for classification based on ideas > of static content is that useful here, if what we're after are > ideas as to how or if we might change protocols to address the > real issues with centralisation etc. If what someone is after > is a way to regulate operators of services based on some non > technical view of what they do, then I'm also unsure that that > needs to affect protocols that are broadly used. > > In passing I'd also note that labelling systems (e.g. in multi > level security) have always been horrendously expensive and, if > not then often brittle, so I'd be surprised if such a generic > labelling scheme for protocols would fly. But there may be some > proposals like that in the literature if someone wants to root > them out. > > S. > > (*) The same is true of many forms of what I guess is being > called "content" in this thread - which is why I didn't reply > to your earlier email - I'm not sure myself how to classify > protocol payload in a way that's at all useful for this > discussion and even if we did I'm not sure that calling it > "content" is useful. I am thinking a bit about it though. > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --000000000000fcd96d0576540187 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob Kahn would dispute your assertion.=C2=A0

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 4:35 PM Step= hen Farrell <stephen.farrel= l@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hiya,

Sorry to keep picking holes but...

On 20/09/18 21:16, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> 1.=C2=A0 First, some group to do the classification.=C2=A0 We call thi= s:
> Classifying_Group.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They use a methodology for assigning a = rating to
> the=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0web site.

Web sites are not static things. They change all the time, esp
the related advertising content. And even the "primary" content for some web sites with lots of user-generated content changes
all the time (e.g. discussion boards). (*)

So I don't think any scheme for classification based on ideas
of static content is that useful here, if what we're after are
ideas as to how or if we might change protocols to address the
real issues with centralisation etc. If what someone is after
is a way to regulate operators of services based on some non
technical view of what they do, then I'm also unsure that that
needs to affect protocols that are broadly used.

In passing I'd also note that labelling systems (e.g. in multi
level security) have always been horrendously expensive and, if
not then often brittle, so I'd be surprised if such a generic
labelling scheme for protocols would fly. But there may be some
proposals like that in the literature if someone wants to root
them out.

S.

(*) The same is true of many forms of what I guess is being
called "content" in this thread - which is why I didn't reply=
to your earlier email - I'm not sure myself how to classify
protocol payload in a way that's at all useful for this
discussion and even if we did I'm not sure that calling it
"content" is useful. I am thinking a bit about it though.
_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@= irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc<= br>
--000000000000fcd96d0576540187-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 14:55:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8BE120072 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:55:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HANE8La8qnQy for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A962D1200D6 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id l42-v6so61835qtf.13 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:55:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=qbNOV3mBcPXRrIVupkwZrBwSVIjT5zi8Jnb7mOdCAd8=; b=EF/E5LkearSEAbL2BfPUF+Dc43X0cWUR7OsxOqhd77TQm8Glvj9JhdW8nfzlcHDusk nUsYzsi150CUGCM16ijWVyi5R8FcFkUNiWVCyVasrBBI+PMirRuJ/KXbmiZhTNcvaEbz CbzKoRXil7WhVLVr16YrpqtaEKfHxSh6/es7Y2FvKEqjBe0VJB3UIlpx4kangZcI5Xa/ uUqbG8sAOxgsZFIQqTNTjKwh6i6ICm2PIWbleO4YOm+76zuFziqUYkscwUhgLuBVxoxf brPkAt1YqDSt/o8qeugHaeRDMO99g/uyt9qUJWl9efcYdl9kfZq7TIqE/jrhBc5rnNE+ V8/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=qbNOV3mBcPXRrIVupkwZrBwSVIjT5zi8Jnb7mOdCAd8=; b=b2Eyi4DBlZEWPCXQpv/8v2IhueuqzSbroyFVmF3mYHGUoYqp1/9AQ8tT8cKQOyF/Lu PzQy1a7MmVMreZYzCRPyAVS4++b/lQVeMVldHx40XYZ5MlSo6auF4ApTkgkr7KgtOa6f vxT4L+FyBQbpVl14g1UYBdbQNg+sGE+DY/l03DbMt1WJWcwzFTNVJavGHMW6w8PemyIy fMOLS3kmc6KNDfj2I2RjWOK8l2j2HZ7x6E+aSUx9KytWO7ElRdrzH71gerp59kw+gcRo ijkNgSo29RYGstCofxGrNDyAEq6a/tnYy6ZO3obrg/Yhgdihg5F53MAIglUSGomRYu6m csBw== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51Ac13tVw4cruDo6DMKTfxzfiJrT8SbPEEpXnSO8LvHiiWGhmoHa 9mge4h1T55YCb4zwc8T3figqYg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0Vdbs4sJySRRKtnPYJ5HYRo64R8xWJTFcPpeEAmkq4i7SNEZuJ+uQB5RwN0KhG86uFXwdVJQrVQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:9e:: with SMTP id c30-v6mr29224153qtg.173.1537480526707; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-167-89-221.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [73.167.89.221]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p84-v6sm383824qkl.66.2018.09.20.14.55.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:55:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <127DEA5F-E243-494F-8D1D-07D9142C5645@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B7664306-F520-48AC-8AB7-A6ECE5FFBD9A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:55:24 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1692241569.591628.1537476824548@mail.yahoo.com> Cc: Stephen Farrell , "bzs@theworld.com" , Hrpc To: Nalini J Elkins References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <1692241569.591628.1537476824548@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:55:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B7664306-F520-48AC-8AB7-A6ECE5FFBD9A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Nalini J Elkins = wrote: > Yes, that could all be true but somehow search engines manage > to keep up pretty well with changing content on web sites. That's a different problem. You aren't dealing with a creative = adversary in this case: the interests of the site owner and of the = search engine are aligned. --Apple-Mail=_B7664306-F520-48AC-8AB7-A6ECE5FFBD9A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On = Sep 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> = wrote:
Yes, that could all be true but somehow search engines = manage
to keep up pretty well with = changing content on web sites.

That's a different problem.   You aren't = dealing with a creative adversary in this case: the interests of the = site owner and of the search engine are aligned.

= --Apple-Mail=_B7664306-F520-48AC-8AB7-A6ECE5FFBD9A-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 15:01:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F976127333 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:01:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FEbsU3S-WSUu for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic301-4.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic301-4.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.129.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 818A9127332 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:01:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537480876; bh=qkDpWqwnIRo7NMPVkeDI8FcpbDSv8lLkrpsFdqieNlo=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=L0RgST2dhJDHHJl5TLPNI98jhMAI+a2GUcaTGWSdEj3NcNELI+zXIAQtoW20F85r1kb0HdpSH28y2bE2pLkjFVIrM8nDmVnbYi6AFJVaCPi4tQZ6Qa8Z4l00q8rEdrgbTb1/59uiCeigS7hummr0qp/FzOxUndinf1O5jgwHIKXb3tNhbGv0qI24hH+NyMMjFdqZ53UgUTjfARr4BQHLUnE+CZ5krWFsqP2XbRTf8Z3xzAjjaWIj1VPmktbWiKfemRAsfl1U+YZXCD/plOwSzn9LS3NIsubd0pxMG80W5+gRnNDiPbTjGcxnULlvbaZgVp5oGjvtCYX/9eQq1Smmfw== X-YMail-OSG: LR7.A6cVM1lCdL1OxJEOyXbMe.EiIvL5lNBtIxPKcqxqZLeZeKi6Ub_7ioVUMoA E1Z6eBac.kkpuYqBzJVZo9aldQs0VDVi5rQJBfMUQKzgQHeq4ualpjt9SOLPI9mefjLPW5TDd0nr JQZVx2Xz1UDHi68Pv.ueF.tWwmwjwal1EbAnYVx_AF_u0d5UeprQqxmR9FbVOst5gt2AWDgRnEqp lRBOadXuC2mtWIwjr1suDjcY9CoriUXmmX73JiDVGBzUU_p75fwl6nJOu6DzFI4D12WhHb_.7lD9 VubGeTlHaMRIkTNRP08hEBhtqEoY2Fx2rITFWT3hh87wVjawo2TsBPdYdvM7KF95bO11V0w6aGiJ xvyHq.wmdbOSgA6ScbRGdr3zcfQTvG45acFE1HBIZjdpRYvwSXSXW3rKjcsVDr784GRIoMhW3rK9 jaVFtvCFrjA5Ba78bniCtEsC_aEcFZMkSw03lhgRWbmx_AhD6tCHXgwClXJrNROMWle_Qdl8bCx3 5ILPcyr7kX_xqMD.S_kkK7bvwEDeLehhnZslo8J_2Pmr5KJUa020Yg9pAYkG4b6a6DYscup_8NA_ nm6a8XqdVyIZQWDUpkae59t57j2y0qbrJmAJAvaroV2UDcmNvhIx5AM5.x2YY0w5rvmOWyijRgWT wB9Jmx4wrNgVEpsfJBdyxnQytnOGZqUGMvo7IRTmX3o8G_BCw.pwmakZ6IFFDesyI8frz2BCqKrT 8LQSwfH5hUd35_NnNnl6qMn6GDgflN9fztBHJmGVYN1lSvI8a5ewy7aEX5XgH9itryTxipdD3bjv TTa4GhgsTGZw_OhGNMWv2c2NW9TcS_FnK6E0s.9wRbux4vctiMP7ZcZl3uTz4ZjX5ggrGdeIJXme 5xmTrDv2UtSd9BIl.3C4f.Hiz.8pzAQ_kC_2WDLPa9dANjnviJnrP7_nuwUp1iscHfI8Q0C4MNLX 5S3kEdUwQt9Rh3KjPBXOMnAB2nQKaGcawcCts49hEZSjOYZEpeA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:01:16 +0000 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:01:14 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Perkins To: Nalini J Elkins , Ted Lemon Cc: "bzs@theworld.com" , Hrpc , Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <1384886852.8026.1537480874243@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <127DEA5F-E243-494F-8D1D-07D9142C5645@fugue.com> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <1692241569.591628.1537476824548@mail.yahoo.com> <127DEA5F-E243-494F-8D1D-07D9142C5645@fugue.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8025_972023572.1537480874241" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12487 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:62.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/62.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:01:20 -0000 ------=_Part_8025_972023572.1537480874241 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure that this is true - while search engines tend to be pretty homoge= nous in their interests (selling users &/or their data to advertisers & avo= iding litigation or prohibition), the same is definitely not true for websi= tes & their creators. Mark P. On Friday, September 21, 2018, 8:55:41 AM GMT+11, Ted Lemon wrote: =20 =20 On Sep 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: Yes, that could all be true but somehow search engines manageto keep up pre= tty well with changing content on web sites. That's a different problem. =C2=A0 You aren't dealing with a creative adver= sary in this case: the interests of the site owner and of the search engine= are aligned. _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_8025_972023572.1537480874241 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not sure that this is true - while search engines tend to be p= retty homogenous in their interests (selling users &/or their data to a= dvertisers & avoiding litigation or prohibition), the same is definitel= y not true for websites & their creators.

Mark= P.

=20
=20
On Friday, September 21, 2018, 8:55:41 AM GMT+11, Ted L= emon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:


On Sep 20, 2018, at 4:5= 3 PM, Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidet= hestack.com> wrote:
Yes, that could all be true but somehow se= arch engines manage
to keep up pretty well with changing conten= t on web sites.

That's a different = problem.   You aren't dealing with a creative adversary in this case: = the interests of the site owner and of the search engine are aligned.
=

_________= ______________________________________
hrpc mailing list<= br clear=3D"none">hrpc@irtf.org
= https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
------=_Part_8025_972023572.1537480874241-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 15:11:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9FDB127333 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:11:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tf7ACjkfvHEm for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic303-4.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic303-4.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.131.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 283CE127332 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:11:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537481489; bh=+zdCdBrEvFXBYAJyPQRcJfNAZvWuiEtEai2xBnaW7pc=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=CCpE4fOc6DmFpd94v9RTYy4ZqWWzJKG3Z+BpCYXA6ngZ9AxmSCm2tz9MLfIzpYNoiUfQ9mJO+nil5R3gGkuu6AKokXUXMsFFFTj/tk0GYamiBdeMrP5NE38fi+5dyH/DwJvmJe/Wpk49VDH9UkLOX4ddaUQiPMd3e152APIPvt2jJbUkcJwOkNiQQa7tC6HN9ClRx7gaPAwyC4GcE40UqIkeltaUEzY8RSeXJYLABHCk2S9aTND9kA6ZGrVAG++tgAE4nKCbPs6T648V+Vn8XyUW9iDaSTF4PbP7A0CZqXmGlmdTAPK9eibNaFhtU8HuVZ+H+dTaXxPGS4xCUeIz9g== X-YMail-OSG: jOmvzfIVM1kC70dCB8_Pt6xzooaQ7BWRh_Z0IwFCAY8lrjP2935TjxS9KUke3D0 V_zh0jIrE7cAOaUHpDS_d5wWIOJSYFyDXd2jcAXtEFCq11_1IxEHnyo1Oau.RTJZfV3UxAqB2fbK yLk5LOen2EcvPlvaFAwZZnpc5ThzmJRhLjUWl3gev3slRkUgh_amwjaNBGYX56eFpnHoz5ouw6qK 2UHnKUUQZAbxqHVIRdoepmIa9P4ngiZ0JSwAOvJEBEhMlUMYKYlcz_JsYFl6EMPPw0kfiaOz_p5M yTa5RSCbo2P_ZLaLPAqKH2mXtIDoStDDFIobvZ0VmpFBc00yupNH74XYyP.xhhXHukZ.sx0ohBjG RnB.5ZafLGkWTJ_Vy2eFFeQ53Mblzign9kUtaR6oP1SdiCZN4_15sQmefB0NgFE2v2Ig.xL90vN6 77dFYkHKTtuXzDG8Et6D2pJsXxp9dBqjXQ0OJGB7MdSXJ3_PPkC.d40r9pqW3vgH1binFWMfnFJ4 F4M_uynKk6SdR4ArHuy6YCCXzg8fY.jO93bShrSa07TPoHINp4eNeoG.vu9d44dsow7f7SOtvY0w l_TMOj1WPy0N3vq3RAAQdTBxaZT7gnPgwsanUzldYpDGlwjP6CR3aBiw215cNOXZr5ARY9xcqorK 9t7AnKEwygnGwMuOJrUEf.aLFIwKnFusuFkShWnLy2U4CeDYdAQclwUhGsn8sPWDxVLgbJy9fOij 5OO4iRZ4QkfzXtKkSRoPj5nTJPUPEF4WybUCtikgD811gn5Bqzczdf0FwJY2UwVKw37DkPXTFUG8 RJ2MKqbpLo1hTr98n_hkrLIcfVwYLp.bNkTQv5.O_FR0Pn_yGi5.QWg50JPFbIW6_ej2qwJrIhsY j63CX6_CSALIc_3raDoN.J8mnyhJMxqLxB1h407BgcYxE2XgKURq4Vgk_5XsJeEsY763F6TXiy2G sm5xTGbk074xZ92eVM573jz4xBSw- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:11:29 +0000 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:11:27 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Perkins To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <248779215.660195.1537481487101@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <3a4c7a9a-812b-b2cf-6cbc-75e8d095b2bf@nomountain.net> References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <1F6FAC3D-867C-43FF-A8DE-DD8ECF80C64B@gmail.com> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> <45632038.185213.1537421073005@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.55502.270454.915475@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3a4c7a9a-812b-b2cf-6cbc-75e8d095b2bf@n omountain.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_660194_114656884.1537481487100" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12473 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:62.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/62.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:11:33 -0000 ------=_Part_660194_114656884.1537481487100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'representative' sample group - as many have pointed out. BUT 1) It is 'a' sample group (which is what I called it in the first place) 2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative 3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative rather than 'accurate) 4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed by adding other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?) Mark P. On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melinda Shore wrote: On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com wrote: > Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not > have an ISOC chapter. We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks from the very large indigenous community up here to have some views on this that might be worth listening to. Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc ------=_Part_660194_114656884.1537481487100 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'repre= sentative' sample group - as many have pointed out. BUT

1) It is 'a'= sample group (which is what I called it in the first place)
2) Any samp= le group I can think of will not be representative
3) Such a survey (or = poll) will be indicative & qualative rather than 'accurate)
4) Lacun= ae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed by adding other sam= ple groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?)

Mark P.

=20
=20
On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melin= da Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:


On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@t= heworld.com wrote:
> Point of Information: To the = best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not
> have an ISO= C chapter.

We don't in Alaska, and I'd= expect that folks from the very large
indigenous communi= ty up here to have some views on this that might
be worth= listening to.

Melinda

--
Melinda Shore
melinda.shore@nomountain.net

Software longa, hardware brevis


= _______________________________________________
hrpc mail= ing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
------=_Part_660194_114656884.1537481487100-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 17:01:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDD2124D68 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:00:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7cuHurNPOK1A for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F66C130DC6 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0269BE51; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:00:43 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bI1Xado-xVGn; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:00:42 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 295DABE53; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:00:42 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1537488042; bh=EbHEiByNAA6xuu1U10UU9kxC/BTRC1+rOvFzvog7gjI=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=wdJCzHLf/a+H8gKTg1y+rtDAAyuelgrtCpfY1PGiiaByF7rvZbul2OvljFo7vYcIG lHYF1ybyIvTcg9DK1fjU6GGnpEorBRpSBJm5kKlqAt8MRlDiMV2q2bOe3vSRnHsXW1 LADPS+2ktngvfepGdMs+d2UBpsHuMdQmtS1sda3c= To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: Nalini J Elkins , "bzs@theworld.com" , Hrpc References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Fn03S1GqKtylMz3pjxlAoUTLK093ZvI9U" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 00:00:50 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Fn03S1GqKtylMz3pjxlAoUTLK093ZvI9U Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="x4FtYXppoovbDEzlBJ3Nh3FtlgxXjYNsD"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: Nalini J Elkins , "bzs@theworld.com" , Hrpc Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: --x4FtYXppoovbDEzlBJ3Nh3FtlgxXjYNsD Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------38967A18218A839398D99BB4" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------38967A18218A839398D99BB4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 20/09/18 22:14, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > Bob Kahn would dispute your assertion. I'm fairly sure I made more than one assertion but welcome substantive discussion/disputation of any of 'em. S >=20 > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 4:35 PM Stephen Farrell > wrote: >=20 >> >> Hiya, >> >> Sorry to keep picking holes but... >> >> On 20/09/18 21:16, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >>> 1. First, some group to do the classification. We call this: >>> Classifying_Group. They use a methodology for assigning a rating to= >>> the web site. >> >> Web sites are not static things. They change all the time, esp >> the related advertising content. And even the "primary" content >> for some web sites with lots of user-generated content changes >> all the time (e.g. discussion boards). (*) >> >> So I don't think any scheme for classification based on ideas >> of static content is that useful here, if what we're after are >> ideas as to how or if we might change protocols to address the >> real issues with centralisation etc. If what someone is after >> is a way to regulate operators of services based on some non >> technical view of what they do, then I'm also unsure that that >> needs to affect protocols that are broadly used. >> >> In passing I'd also note that labelling systems (e.g. in multi >> level security) have always been horrendously expensive and, if >> not then often brittle, so I'd be surprised if such a generic >> labelling scheme for protocols would fly. But there may be some >> proposals like that in the literature if someone wants to root >> them out. >> >> S. >> >> (*) The same is true of many forms of what I guess is being >> called "content" in this thread - which is why I didn't reply >> to your earlier email - I'm not sure myself how to classify >> protocol payload in a way that's at all useful for this >> discussion and even if we did I'm not sure that calling it >> "content" is useful. I am thinking a bit about it though. >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> >=20 --------------38967A18218A839398D99BB4 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 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<23459.55502.270454.915475@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3a4c7a9a-812b-b2cf-6cbc-75e8d095b2bf@nomountain.net> <248779215.660195.1537481487101@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <248779215.660195.1537481487101@mail.yahoo.com> From: Ted Lemon Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:03:54 -0400 Message-ID: To: marknoumea=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org Cc: Hrpc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e157f905765738f4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:04:37 -0000 --000000000000e157f905765738f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" ISTM such a poll would most likely be harmful. If you want data, use a methodology that will produce data that answers the question. Otherwise the only thing that the data can do is make us more ignorant. For example, suppose there isn't anybody at an ISOC chapter who has a problem with this terminology. Do we conclude that there is no problem? It's a term that is differently problematic in different countries, and ISOC is an international organization, with, I suspect, more chapters outside of the country where the particular terminology that started this conversation is problematic than in it. So if we get a few yes answers, but a lot of no answers, does that mean that it's a very small problem? The answer is that we don't know. Studies like this result in us knowing less, not more. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins wrote: > I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'representative' sample > group - as many have pointed out. BUT > > 1) It is 'a' sample group (which is what I called it in the first place) > 2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative > 3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative rather than > 'accurate) > 4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed by adding > other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?) > > Mark P. > > On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melinda Shore < > melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote: > > > On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com wrote: > > Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not > > have an ISOC chapter. > > We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks from the very large > indigenous community up here to have some views on this that might > be worth listening to. > > Melinda > > -- > Melinda Shore > melinda.shore@nomountain.net > > Software longa, hardware brevis > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --000000000000e157f905765738f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ISTM such a poll would most likely = be harmful. If you want data, use a methodology that will produce data that= answers the question. Otherwise the only thing that the data can do is mak= e us more ignorant.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, suppose there isn't anybod= y at an ISOC chapter who has a problem with this terminology.=C2=A0 =C2=A0D= o we conclude that there is no problem?=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's a term that is= differently problematic in different countries, and ISOC is an internation= al organization, with, I suspect, more chapters outside of the country wher= e the particular terminology that started this conversation is problematic = than in it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0So if we get a few yes answers, but a lot of no ans= wers, does that mean that it's a very small problem?=C2=A0 =C2=A0The an= swer is that we don't know.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Studies like this result in us = knowing less, not more.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins <marknou= mea=3D40yah= oo.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'r= epresentative' sample group - as many have pointed out. BUT

1) I= t is 'a' sample group (which is what I called it in the first place= )
2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative
3) Su= ch a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative rather than 'a= ccurate)
4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed= by adding other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?)

Mar= k P.

=20
=20
On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melin= da Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:


On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com wr= ote:
> Point of Information: To the best of my knowled= ge Boston, MA does not
> have an ISOC chapter.

We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect th= at folks from the very large
indigenous community up here= to have some views on this that might
be worth listening= to.

Melinda

--
Melinda Shore
me= linda.shore@nomountain.net

Softwar= e longa, hardware brevis


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hrpc@irtf.org
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--000000000000e157f905765738f4-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 18:37:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4E312F1AB for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:37:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L5-knngFirP6 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12010130DD8 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id u23so272429edx.10 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:37:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=skzltgXtiSjEvakz7pzy7rw3H7DJMrUCJA8fPytEBEI=; b=HYxp5vmhCm5Nwg/Rm6spY1Hz8N/bvIVg0JUHwe+2IydukdNHbx8t6LymehqVSzl/Yz mqeMWNQmmSTAUPL2eyy9Mku3Eszvblm35/DcTTbGqyoyUJ1ffcs1ZMI+eUfEOhEA2UM9 Ltahw11dbE/8CtRQWCbWXPq7h9rrog0aYx+T6S6Z6vpO8kd/aC3EeVazz/ErLj6KItff H7WV5WOPV7PUj4zGHiKtnSh8aCxzza3gkcyqdQ7iZ+/WLOelIQ/7g4wq8aXwN+AqqwAt fW8lKaV/DYDbr6NnWlA8cBXLpuNZfvEy7ZTXKCptI6xm/7bAF7ieH+MjsHxQK268Ls5A gkgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=skzltgXtiSjEvakz7pzy7rw3H7DJMrUCJA8fPytEBEI=; b=NF5vcz4UzR4nan5cfK8AIEn5pzTy3DiG+KyZJHZi51YYHCXBOdCTIBS64hE1xERU1e qz6biLcMyJmJmjEnwnR++msE/4f8UgwSs7d2QPEzSGOoP9Zff1/VmxWEiraKxXuytIe3 FMzdJX5FinYsUoYTO20cDiOd/wTjzJbUNkotM7APmOvOlL8Gx5gOQ6mQKhJm+MoryjgC 1rzz2dnuS0Rgz+sU1h5MYMH/HjDsF+AIOTEHSz1+7r01YpGmCOXSkznVnErSsqBjVWM5 4O/mWHKev3dzrJ7QFhVGx21wpSIU4978rgebKB4ebNgImlw93+dOvS2sVYcgYYiObzP2 9KYg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51AmMRmFjfQIy6S+/0625RhScMO0xqlbEhryZ9V9yCEO8Tj3Y1W7 WHkoHWjH+2Xj9IlPRGdzPZoS4Nde0fabJrJjrx491w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZbG9XqFzN6ImkArI4BuKYbR5+aw9gEqd7kEhaslxU1fBhNGWAjC9SQp+uaIvwnk6OvUcgHsRp7Y+bbhYZ/2EI= X-Received: by 2002:a50:a9a4:: with SMTP id n33-v6mr2967226edc.208.1537493873359; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:37:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Tony Rutkowski Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:37:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a7f1c057657b032" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Helping political dissidents X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:37:57 -0000 --0000000000002a7f1c057657b032 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The Plot to Subvert an Election: Unraveling the Russia Story So Far https://nyti.ms/2Nr2Y2g So do the FSB and GRU have internet protocol anonymity, expression, and association rights to assist US dissidents bring about fundamental regime changes and elect an oppressive national leader? Just positing a use case. -t --0000000000002a7f1c057657b032 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Plot to Subvert an Election: Unraveling the Russia St= ory So Far https://nyti.ms/2Nr2Y2g

So do the FSB and GRU have internet protocol anonymity, expression, = and association rights to assist US dissidents bring about fundamental regi= me changes and elect an oppressive national leader?
=
Just positing a use case.

-t
--0000000000002a7f1c057657b032-- From nobody Thu Sep 20 18:38:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0585130E6F for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:38:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.585 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.585 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1.994, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ii2RFwOOVndr for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls5.std.com [192.74.137.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4911D130E39 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8L1bYdx009415; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:37:36 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8L1bSnY029203; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:37:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23460.19288.793513.175464@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:37:28 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Nalini J Elkins Cc: Stephen Farrell , "bzs\@theworld.com" , Hrpc In-Reply-To: <1692241569.591628.1537476824548@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <1692241569.591628.1537476824548@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:38:08 -0000 Let me try to gather a few responses here...I'm not big on voluminous quoting unless necessary to show precisely what someone said and not risk unfair paraphrasing, my idea is we all have access to the original notes. 1. Tagging websites: Although websites would likely be subject to tagging I don't believe that's the only or even primary granularity for tagging. Specific content down to any level, an image for example or article, might be tagged. 2. IPv6 models: I really don't think tagging should be done at such a low level and it would be problematic due to issues like CGN and other dynamic addressing schemes. And it's too limiting to have to squeeze what's needed into a routing packet. 3. Cost of tagging: Compared to what? The cost of tagging vs blocking should be about the same. In either case a decision is being made on content and that's where, one assumes, most of the cost lies. 4. Tagging in general: My thought would be this would occur at a level such as HTTP which might include a new header, much like Cookies etc are sent. So for example a header indicating the source of the tag, the nature of the tag (e.g., sexually explicit) in broad terms, date, and perhaps a URL if one wants more specifics on the tag and source. This could be provided by the content provider such as tagging what they know is sexually explicit material. I think many would do this even if just to avoid liability. It might even have marketing value helping those who are looking for such material to find it. And/or by a third party which the browser or similar could query if desired in which case it wouldn't necessarily be embedded in the HTTP conversation, just a returned response. But standardizing the format of the response (e.g., much like the cookie format is standardized, or DNS responses) would be useful. One could imagine a proxy which embeds tags not provided by the content provider by querying one or more third party services and/or local decision-making. Use might be wholly voluntary or, for example, imposed by an employer. A lot of spam filtering works like this to varying extents. Spamassassin, for example, is pretty good at rating emails based on surface features such as "all image no text", "selling pharmaceuticals", "loan offer", "invisible embedded text" (e.g., white on white or black on black etc, always suspicious*), and assigns a point system which is added up and one can choose a threshold. It will also assign negative score ratings for some features which is a good thing and lowers the spamminess score. And an end-user can add advice into a local database like I only read languages A, B, C so increase the score if not one of those, or don't ever mark anything from this source as spammy. It can also use third-party sources querying address blacklist maintainers for example. I would argue that a lot of what is needed, at an architectural level, is already in place in the spam fighting world, with the addition of applying the methodology more generally to any content and involving content providers such as social media sites. * Why suspicious? Because invisible text is often used to thwart text-rating algorithms (e.g., Bayesian), and even very simple schemes, such as "Cheap Viagra" versus "Cheap Viagra". -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Thu Sep 20 19:09:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A872130E02 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 19:09:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cfhOV3DyD-uj for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 19:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls5.std.com [192.74.137.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52066130DFF for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 19:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8L28xWt013909; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:09:01 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8L28sXh030079; Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:08:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:08:54 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Nalini J Elkins Cc: "bzs\@theworld.com" , Hrpc In-Reply-To: <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 02:09:06 -0000 Although not identical a closely related issue is copyright protection. This has become a particularly active area since the EU adopted its digital copyright rules negotiating position (i.e., still in early stages) on 2018-09-12: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20180906IPR12103/parliament-adopts-its-position-on-digital-copyright-rules In that case my thought was to study how the music industry has evolved copyright protection over the past 100+ years in the US and elsewhere. In brief (US) they rely on designated third-party agencies (such as BMI, ASCAP, Harry J Fox) to provide licensing and collect royalties and distribute those back to copyright owners. And statutory fees set by the US congress. Private agreements are also possible, and common, of course. The music industry has developed a sophisticated ecosystem and rather than rely first on threats of criminal prosecution (which is possible in extreme cases) instead tries to convert as much of the problem as possible into civil claims (you used my work, you owe me money!) This is in stark contrast to the EU directive which approaches the problem via draconian fines etc. and seems to create none of that infrastructure. One doubts any of those fines, which could be in the billions of euros, will go to the content creators and owners. As an internetworking example I could imagine creating licensing agents with various types of licenses for sale depending on intended use and embedding those into (https etc) SSL certificates. Something analogous could be done for content in general. For example identification and certification by third-party vetting organizations which could be embedded into SSL certificates indicating that a site adheres to certain content standards. That sort of thing is very defensible legally (at least in the US) if the third-party is identified by a trademark (think: Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, Underwriters Laboratory.) The similarities to managing content in general is potentially useful. THE POINT: This is a big, big, and complex problem. It might take "organic" thinking which embraces the nature of global networking and creates and evolves infrastructure to respond usefully. It's not going to be solved by simple analysis even if that's useful to thinking about it. A problem of this magnitude also requires synthesis of an implementation ecosystem which can be much more difficult. And each aspect of it SHOULDN'T evolve its own unique solution. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Fri Sep 21 00:36:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384F1130E0E for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 00:36:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0YHOkbH6bqCM for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 00:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic310-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic310-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.186.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DE79130E02 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 00:36:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537515360; bh=ju5hUcmBQ7xz6f8r63b/mcinRyfy4bPrr6KwgEilPeM=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=sjGJ+r3pONYmALjO3V/mzN2rEB3vsagAvEYh9IUCEzYnpmSX+ypEqBVgoKOQL/eR9wdWuqgsPzmyuFWPEooiOqTM/T3MLhm/Z+0GNESTSO1eluFToWhNa+U7QtwgYJtC9JdqoGXyMzFy0fhLJVaSQpWcMVRkdiOtnA+a1wvSWAzpbzt2dck4mX2biSIAB+n8Xu1PDs4JhNh8P7rx2ZU8arH/LKao2ezegT0ztJ+Ihwp2jugJDm7RhyoUzdhbN5ANH6dKRHPqEl15BLhH0ouLJb6LbIkys6ivJPiL9I5Mj7nnmX7EJ0l1rWY30Ey23Gy5a3XRwe6C8MXA+KWgzSH1BQ== X-YMail-OSG: koTon.EVM1msvPv8xLC2P830myyELeX39q3JMW3_MB7j0JqInGD61rCtxbbcr_6 r7ztJvYdQTuZanTbXi16BtfhvmQwkmtdOw5jjtytOAjWzo.66Q8RUBVFLI8Atsec5N9vxPaPGrlT SgRTfvk8vSqPTgdEGJAGMlSswnXzkRowg3z7xwarikqPoMjQjXFHHaouDt9GNV155gGpbV9MVmfn L8JXyHQp5VPJq4UHMelSq3gXt7XAaz0szU4J3EQ.dKbx.FlgswjpKOC3E44uUdiY2G5cLd3HCYMW t8fQLOb9Ujqk5CBZwYM_qx.Y6TngxV_eEQJTpPmr7KFHz_I1o45sjaERobmM4j5rQh19xBg6HoXk FStQXdd163JfuEm.UOCzx1SvBmxCPP.sUXQRtR3Mc5PPd2qFWg0aOrz6EF2PApdwPsYW5pq3ql3b I_MTwk2_x5bzsbbrYpwp3J0_NfHSlaxGxtObdRSS2MNNPhA0IAtt98EgYOSH0ZpFe6qFrKxIMYEo i41dlN2W..8yVftsWWnuH9kN_9bOpC5moOrKwAVkT81d1Sk1Nw_JvnuFhVIswaV6.IrOhwpfSN3v 2LDCXKilkGTkRgSH4zzMvijp1BdTKCCXU_xgmlQ_feNQqVhmjP11vPVpSwU690U9b.7z_tvBz7.n fYa2J30j6gvn8dZ.1k9NMLyCwMIF3L5CzUGh81to1t7kFRElZx.XeHBEcBERaHOGj5fUqCnvPdr_ iVwewTUJfOPZSs5qRCkIjXZpUymhgJ3L1xqEruHv.USB8vyapoU4YzAujlJPI2eo5BuOkga2WF5P b6YpFdtwp1_STh_pkfPemnhkb2HqwJO.q5EBcEqQ0mxV_3rOtn_Xs2RDffBrwGBsFox4Gf8T9tpC _xHm_MbsXlzD7TII2ej.a9lPVhS7Mc4M8jRPX6jf1pn7uj3S8fqBlyjpx.oWJOW4T1AzhRBm2a6c BgNyMRaB5aamLAbwVjUDHgFNlzlJkPXRnTfTBG6tZippchjIexzXe2IpLj1q9EnFkqYsXlK1ZGmF JlNVf6jQEY70- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 07:36:00 +0000 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 07:35:36 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Ted Lemon Cc: "bzs@theworld.com" , Hrpc , Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <1072278270.182227.1537515336374@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <127DEA5F-E243-494F-8D1D-07D9142C5645@fugue.com> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <1692241569.591628.1537476824548@mail.yahoo.com> <127DEA5F-E243-494F-8D1D-07D9142C5645@fugue.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_182226_478751092.1537515336372" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12487 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 07:36:04 -0000 ------=_Part_182226_478751092.1537515336372 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sep 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >Yes, that could all be true but somehow search engines manage> to keep up = pretty well with changing content on web sites. >That's a different problem. =C2=A0 You aren't dealing with a creative adve= rsary in this case: the interests of the site owner and of the search engin= e >are aligned. Well, maybe.=C2=A0 But, if the content were to change completely, then the = site would likely lose its customer base.=C2=A0 What I mean is that if the = site started doing shape shifting to "creatively" try to defeat our categor= ization algorithm, then there are limits to what they could do before the s= ite became a completely different thing. That is, if a site which originally was for pornography now started showing= cat videos, or a site which had plans for 3-d printed guns instead had pla= ns for 3-d printed lawn mowers, or a site which was originally for ISIS rec= ruitment started recruiting for the girl scouts (OK, I will stop now!), the= n I submit the site would indeed evade our categorization algorithm, but th= ey would also lose their intended customer base. Nalini =20 ------=_Part_182226_478751092.1537515336372 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sep 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> wrote:
>Yes, that could all b= e true but somehow search engines manage
> to keep up pretty well with changing content on= web sites.

>That's a different problem.   You aren't dea= ling with a creative adversary in this case: the interests of the site owne= r and of the search engine >are aligned.

Well, maybe.  But, if the content were to change completely, t= hen the site would likely lose its customer base.  What I mean is that= if the site started doing shape shifting to "creatively" try to defeat our= categorization algorithm, then there are limits to what they could do befo= re the site became a completely different thing.

That is, = if a site which originally was for pornography now started showing cat vide= os, or a site which had plans for 3-d printed guns instead had plans for 3-= d printed lawn mowers, or a site which was originally for ISIS recruitment = started recruiting for the girl scouts (OK, I will stop now!), then I submi= t the site would indeed evade our categorization algorithm, but they would = also lose their intended customer base.

Nalini
<= br>
------=_Part_182226_478751092.1537515336372-- From nobody Fri Sep 21 01:32:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5601B130E29 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:32:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YjK4xgYTZtG1 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic301-37.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic301-37.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.206]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95A24126CC7 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:31:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537518708; bh=uqYhcOLuDweGjpYOG7xpaD8nTYBbWI220QI4lRXMBLI=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=NTYQXwSN08CZbq+X8vlgwbSufIkiFYTItcDjHofTSqp6U0KyB0Y0qEJ8uruizdEm4JGUNGwN+YLzccoxZL0H+1LxdPXkvScOROCU2c3S5LVhbXOc0ahwSZYEDRa5JAhZ6lBNc9ng/fuIcUJjvNWKVpsh8Wa15InA4OLPe7QP8Ed/+CMIcwxaWJFxpWrpjDcdFXRfhB++5kwD5xjHIb55j2Yu079yf5FEvtVw3W28/qMw8Ke05ka5nGofFCdiBWaRY4SJZcjdsr7SVl9TTzfp+NPtzQA2dBhYFexOGfNR/QqZvNURqhSQquU8QDB62w/MDzawajIeMUFTEAs62z35sg== X-YMail-OSG: N17er_QVM1lgC2X5mEbbkHFNd98yxvUQ.scHVYyDhrh8QmhD59FbRCCJ8GIASZ8 2Xn2n7s4YOkO.H7EsxcFh8BGtrU5Lm7dHgCSjeHOc426XY2iVtZ4kbffMi8Q7.9ltcfUOV9M10zj 64LMcweo.HJhLLfuKFNUPoPe_IhMMhyPcXcGbqlrvkth0PxxM6oqE9s5475W6ZeldGkEgIkgDgeu MBjfzppdm7GzCfBRWrGU_OVaSwD9qnE_35PqkXKYPB9_2GLYGkXIiT4svQ9iA7p.hixOB.OSrzzM y3qh5wUwRJXcE_BDF9aZw09O6uTbI93Yd744peUcCwYNGRyv4XkYRf_EwpwZNP6hew9mkfmf8aTI 1SyiYmvr_FMTjgjZGdA85JX1WNTtsCqrxi_e_qhp6A11SHpybiDQWzjuNwidrERYR6S5VSCefowJ OErLuky9JrN6PMGhu7zLGjBkrTVj_wn7gk7Usw83w8C.170FZsxz_qy4A2thrLSrDc1MHuv.3SpG fBcUiK3m8Z9Vt2JAy9ofz1bJLP5zUtM.1KXLnWnabef2tugssVE2T2BpF45.p7l0gPRhKZkjVXlm 3tS1v1tqLWD_x4YnLr2ZH_eMoF7Q5FJDkU6pCiGtJKA84B6ZjrgebuTdpVrYYVJ3TZY7_4vgqznB 9IKok66htXibJVTK7fVbwp6hsA42T1Vpx3yP8eTFQSrtYdhiXnQX7NIEx2aTPdCq5ywW_tivpCX_ 6LxZ4vI2F1I6WEPmgyBocCWWUsV_YK9iVxZ7bU_VIiS7731dR69P0U33ivSX4cXSOpv.2BP8AE2Y Hngz.fphee0pMde72_U65K1wZDNsNlRFLtTbvkgK.PtKfGDPHnNJoO0O.7qMd_gp0b7fMe7Xfu6P sVd5DvEEEGj3X40jCfSDxfu1MqF5gZZVyN.xa.fe_A2dNxKpVgesFL7ey_kS_2kIXdFd63fgWQxp 0Gi4JcuNjO4KyroKLv5mROx.bJRko._n8gdMySrfsu.KtyYFCne0tYR5NCz_Q2pPiajLDxjt.1vO J Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:31:48 +0000 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:31:06 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: "bzs@theworld.com" Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <1675397439.184108.1537518666153@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_184107_308966440.1537518666151" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12487 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:32:00 -0000 ------=_Part_184107_308966440.1537518666151 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barry, Very good writeups.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Let me think over the issues you have raise= d for a couple of days. Some things I think already: - likely we need to form a core group that is interested in this issue- we = need the search engines / platforms engaged- we don't want multiple solutio= ns But, after that, I need to think about what you are saying.=C2=A0 I will si= t in the park and ponder.=C2=A0Thank you for taking the time and effort to = engage so seriously. Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: "bzs@theworld.com" To: Nalini J Elkins =20 Cc: Hrpc ; "bzs@theworld.com" Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 3:09 AM Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols =20 Although not identical a closely related issue is copyright protection. This has become a particularly active area since the EU adopted its digital copyright rules negotiating position (i.e., still in early stages) on 2018-09-12: =C2=A0 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20180906IPR12103/pa= rliament-adopts-its-position-on-digital-copyright-rules In that case my thought was to study how the music industry has evolved copyright protection over the past 100+ years in the US and elsewhere. In brief (US) they rely on designated third-party agencies (such as BMI, ASCAP, Harry J Fox) to provide licensing and collect royalties and distribute those back to copyright owners. And statutory fees set by the US congress. Private agreements are also possible, and common, of course. The music industry has developed a sophisticated ecosystem and rather than rely first on threats of criminal prosecution (which is possible in extreme cases) instead tries to convert as much of the problem as possible into civil claims (you used my work, you owe me money!) This is in stark contrast to the EU directive which approaches the problem via draconian fines etc. and seems to create none of that infrastructure. One doubts any of those fines, which could be in the billions of euros, will go to the content creators and owners. As an internetworking example I could imagine creating licensing agents with various types of licenses for sale depending on intended use and embedding those into (https etc) SSL certificates. Something analogous could be done for content in general. For example identification and certification by third-party vetting organizations which could be embedded into SSL certificates indicating that a site adheres to certain content standards. That sort of thing is very defensible legally (at least in the US) if the third-party is identified by a trademark (think: Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, Underwriters Laboratory.) The similarities to managing content in general is potentially useful. THE POINT: This is a big, big, and complex problem. It might take "organic" thinking which embraces the nature of global networking and creates and evolves infrastructure to respond usefully. It's not going to be solved by simple analysis even if that's useful to thinking about it. A problem of this magnitude also requires synthesis of an implementation ecosystem which can be much more difficult. And each aspect of it SHOULDN'T evolve its own unique solution. --=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | bzs@TheWorld.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 800-T= HE-WRLD The World: Since 1989=C2=A0 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_184107_308966440.1537518666151 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Barry,

Very good writeups. = ;  Let me think over the issues you have raised for a couple of days.<= /span>

Some thin= gs I think already:

- likely we need to form a core group that is intere= sted in this issue
- we need the search engines / platforms engaged
- we don't want multiple solutions

But, after that, I need to think about what you are = saying.  I will sit in the park and ponder.
 
Thank you for taking = the time and effort to engage so seriously.

Nalini Elkins
CEO and= Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-83= 60


From: "bzs@theworld.com" <bzs@theworld.com>
To: Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidet= hestack.com>
Cc: Hr= pc <hrpc@irtf.org>; "bzs@theworld.com" <bzs@theworld.com>
<= b>Sent: Friday, September 21,= 2018 3:09 AM
Subject:= Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols
 <= /div>


Although not identical a closely related issue is copyright protection.
This has become a particularly active a= rea since the EU adopted its
digital copyright rules nego= tiating position (i.e., still in early
stages) on 2018-09= -12:

  http://= www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20180906IPR12103/parliament-adopt= s-its-position-on-digital-copyright-rules

In that case my thought was to study how the music industry hasevolved copyright protection over the past 100+ years in t= he US and
elsewhere.

In brief (US) they rely on designated third-party agencies (such as
BMI, ASCAP, Harry J Fox) to provide licensing and collect royal= ties
and distribute those back to copyright owners. And s= tatutory fees set
by the US congress. Private agreements = are also possible, and common,
of course.

The music industry has developed a sophisticated ecos= ystem and rather
than rely first on threats of criminal p= rosecution (which is possible
in extreme cases) instead t= ries to convert as much of the problem as
possible into c= ivil claims (you used my work, you owe me money!)

This is in stark contrast to the EU directive which approaches = the
problem via draconian fines etc. and seems to create = none of that
infrastructure. One doubts any of those fine= s, which could be in the
billions of euros, will go to th= e content creators and owners.

As an i= nternetworking example I could imagine creating licensing
agents with various types of licenses for sale depending on intended
use and embedding those into (https etc) SSL certificates.

Something analogous could be done for con= tent in general.

For example identific= ation and certification by third-party vetting
organizati= ons which could be embedded into SSL certificates indicating
that a site adheres to certain content standards.
That sort of thing is very defensible legally (at least in = the US) if
the third-party is identified by a trademark (= think: Good Housekeeping
Seal of Approval, Underwriters L= aboratory.)

The similarities to managi= ng content in general is potentially useful.

THE POINT:

This is a big, big, = and complex problem.

It might take "or= ganic" thinking which embraces the nature of global
netwo= rking and creates and evolves infrastructure to respond usefully.

It's not going to be solved by simple analysis= even if that's useful
to thinking about it.

A problem of this magnitude also requires synthesi= s of an
implementation ecosystem which can be much more d= ifficult.

And each aspect of it SHOULD= N'T evolve its own unique solution.

--=
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | b= zs@TheWorld.com            | http://www.TheWo= rld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WR= LD      | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1= 989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*


__________________= _____________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://w= ww.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

------=_Part_184107_308966440.1537518666151-- From nobody Fri Sep 21 02:06:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91FD1130E39 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 02:06:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C9y8QHIUr4gG for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 02:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 573C7130E34 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 02:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DABC86A24E; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:06:10 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1537520770; bh=KlNaRilO8PSdqplvO0o96o4iWR1pCfppnRHxYu4qJj4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=kjqeQtDV0OQ4SJf8jUoPBWvv72fZJp7xGYC4PPv2oKELSz96npwVnwe+ZFEKfsOg1 2HATvWysWxJLI+SQfPdPIZ0Suz8oFBrjJl+lv6YIc0z4NgSFGM/74ygQA1uKizMyrK XXzw6OQJHVzq6EUEnsFf+sAwn4EEmGpLO+jdQerJw8Q/KGHoaIq4DYzthC0IU8VgJv DYXgLLACg++NGKqfZKqq7NiA9YfQAroW++w+tFcuDskKwB4XBejiEJ2OB3shqEpytz mCVFYDW23TbvyX82963YBFP481VSjfWkC7Am3cbM2zdwyO4/IAGwSNFUbnvhhwHXI8 2bYnXqfcHPkMQ== Received: from null (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B45DE3C18CC; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:06:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:06:10 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Nalini J Elkins , bzs@theworld.com Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <110214603.2591.1537520770665@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1675397439.184108.1537518666153@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1675397439.184108.1537518666153@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2588_539295121.1537520770577" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev15 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:06:17 -0000 ------=_Part_2588_539295121.1537520770577 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 21 settembre 2018 alle 10.31 Nalini J Elkins ha scritto: > > Barry, > > Very good writeups. Let me think over the issues you have raised for a couple of days. > Some things I think already: > - likely we need to form a core group that is interested in this issue > - we need the search engines / platforms engaged > - we don't want multiple solutions > I think that you need to create a standard for attaching and transmitting tags that allows tagging different types of objects (ranging from a specific image to an entire AS including intermediate steps like a social media post, a page, a website, a hostname, an entity) under multiple tagging systems managed by different entities (including ways for these entities to sign these tags and for users to pick one entity, connect to its/a server, download the information and verify the signatures), and then you need to write all the software that is necessary to create and transmit these tags and to inject them into the servers for any of the protocols that should use such tagging information to apply filtering/marking policies to the payload they deal with. It doesn't look like a big job :-D No, seriously: it's a huge job but it's also a huge and important issue, so why not: once you have a standard way, for people who want to do so, to use the "Internet Content Tagging Protocol" to connect to the authority they like and get updated listings of "undesirable" content, then it will actually be possible to add "ICTP support" to server software, e.g. DNS servers could have an option to bring up an ICTP client with some parameters, download filtering lists and apply them to the query results; same for the UGC-based platforms and social networks that are now required to filter out stuff by law in Europe. At this point time this is already happening in bits and pieces, and every community has its own standard protocol(s), which may be public, such as RPZ for the DNS, or proprietary, as it will happen for the UGC filters. Should we rather have a single global protocol? Ciao -- Vittorio Bertola Head of Policy & Innovation Cell: +39 348 7015022 Skype: in-skype-ox@bertola.eu Email: vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Twitter: @openexchange http://twitter.com/openexchange - Facebook: OpenXchange https://www.facebook.com/OpenXchange - Web: www.open-xchange.com http://www.open-xchange.com Open-Xchange AG, Rollnerstr. 14, 90408 Nuremberg, District Court Nuremberg HRB 24738 Managing Board: Rafael Laguna de la Vera, Carsten Dirks, Michael Knapstein, Stephan Martin Chairman of the Board: Richard Seibt European Office: Open-Xchange GmbH, Olper Huette 5f, D-57462 Olpe, Germany, District Court Siegen, HRB 8718 Managing Director: Frank Hoberg US Office: Open-Xchange. Inc., 530 Lytton Avenue, Palo Alto, CA 94301, USA Confidentiality Warning: This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s), are confidential, and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, conversion to hard copy, copying, circulation or other use of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. ------=_Part_2588_539295121.1537520770577 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_Part_2589_1945437155.1537520770577" ------=_Part_2589_1945437155.1537520770577 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 21 settembre 2018 alle 10.31 Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> ha scritto:

Barry,

Very good writeups.   Let me think over the issues you have raised for a couple of days.
Some things I think already:
- likely we need to form a core group that is interested in this issue
- we need the search engines / platforms engaged
- we don't want multiple solutions
I think that you need to create a standard for attaching and transmitting tags that allows tagging different types of objects (ranging from a specific image to an entire AS including intermediate steps like a social media post, a page, a website, a hostname, an entity) under multiple tagging systems managed by different entities (including ways for these entities to sign these tags and for users to pick one entity, connect to its/a server, download the information and verify the signatures), and then you need to write all the software that is necessary to create and transmit these tags and to inject them into the servers for any of the protocols that should use such tagging information to apply filtering/marking policies to the payload they deal with.

It doesn't look like a big job :-D

No, seriously: it's a huge job but it's also a huge and important issue, so why not: once you have a standard way, for people who want to do so, to use the "Internet Content Tagging Protocol" to connect to the authority they like and get updated listings of "undesirable" content, then it will actually be possible to add "ICTP support" to server software, e.g. DNS servers could have an option to bring up an ICTP client with some parameters, download filtering lists and apply them to the query results; same for the UGC-based platforms and social networks that are now required to filter out stuff by law in Europe.

At this point time this is already happening in bits and pieces, and every community has its own standard protocol(s), which may be public, such as RPZ for the DNS, or proprietary, as it will happen for the UGC filters. Should we rather have a single global protocol?

Ciao

--

Vittorio Bertola
Head of Policy & Innovation

Cell: +39 348 7015022
Skype: in-skype-ox@bertola.eu
Email: vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com

Twitter: @openexchange - Facebook: OpenXchange - Web: www.open-xchange.com
Open-Xchange AG, Rollnerstr. 14, 90408 Nuremberg, District Court Nuremberg HRB 24738
Managing Board: Rafael Laguna de la Vera, Carsten Dirks, Michael Knapstein, Stephan Martin
Chairman of the Board: Richard Seibt

European Office:
Open-Xchange GmbH, Olper Huette 5f, D-57462 Olpe, Germany, District Court Siegen, HRB 8718
Managing Director: Frank Hoberg

US Office:
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d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537522128; bh=qT64fMvvej1I2DQWNSLl/SFb/8/BoKE42X5+oR8+fmg=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=pKIkeGl6uYaZxKVyrHWk/9yrLCuJLW2kKKCbogdr7X5NN+/JaixpEFDNNxpRh9OmBS09OZIoRFLom9XkYkd9jF7jhIEnNO9MzrZy0EKA0r6MbqQWC+uvOkG6pdp2zl4j4x031MYZshqqAKT7Uhh2j5Ajobt8r17agurnO1gxGZY564QrUsFiN6EjumyZMmpwnHj3ox/c8Ep5ZmukF6gp/aqrL4yXt9abGnAccotS7FckIRtW7QxJYET29dpez2KNsJLKX/Id9oBOWzPBdlUb2xY1ppr1Dz1yjzUUkMoamaNAKGons+Jas33DNUucF58fB4n4nnfPDpB+ikKtmrzhcA== X-YMail-OSG: BPrSuhQVM1kOYZR76rl9_JVZJskc4UgY8TUBOdjF5mvTpZdMJ0chZDPLVW8c0wd DSigaspeZ9Rup3_xXER.tmKl3wMiMsye7nMJ_Bg4KRgbL8rlrMMa6fyIOIbjjV9_qM83q8loWb1A MQ7VllQC2NoBPAi0pfCb9ggCy9toRMYbVuf1_VmhY7A6l9aRsPbHEVnTEfUS9Ft6YNf6bZwuADh0 yJAxkko6rxT_f.mRg3y2.iDvsyIwhluXCrbFNH8LZqzO0r4cKB5y0XJsKuStarXRWS.dsINxwOts 8XiTjMXQvpdSIZIH226EeGtXwBj4nkzXqgfYpINGB4_Lji5hAXWrhOkB6AXo533s4b18rI2EK.Qn TqsYdweivbf6zFJ1raG5yvmI51ogPEuCL9hUvomljvgbF6aSyx04HM0SLQE6.nhR69W3Zfx5Decm Uuqm9NbozcTr0QUYvCiJTkEBjEqCsbWxv8rDEHal8p4I_R4KjN6EAWLlmJaqD_a0JO7TKNJ43lSK AQNdOgu2rLDab8Q2z8xQm0GZ9mxWhmJklmpyr0kuJEqRnERHt1GPCUEEfpNmxP.NOav_.xxV__9r .WWlnP_0ifLa_XjhcnCgWy1sTREY3xN5yE4vcZlw5ec9hD36myYZfhMMa15Xi4LmG058MLhol9xU 8gE1UGrYMc4_58cu5CXh0FO0qOfRtfMds3jAIE2hBBfGb0Y7EC42Jfi72M263BBnIp7X2YrK.Rg. YazNB0YS6EgE08F9zU6Y0nzLvpoIVP.BnrwLNRAhaPLIXxi1VMwWpwLQkyvXMnlPjrTLaOZyV9P2 yxRuBshUDuqddvfdcWBkEGiBF4DDTae1hDR6wUNYN_8avORUwTE0CJn_s8ue63QIpabAthmn0Jz. sX.uV9O71Ir.SF18mp1n8fq9vB.Kh0EKJ9FwCrn.bnsELBPBhO0DtMYdLG9djWhBh9m6zqGxBxKi TrzcxX0KW3PiYBDa4AbbhqsfMO_VHwdCECOiu8Dbb7MvJPgb21MaJC6E5SjYToA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:28:48 +0000 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:28:40 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Vittorio Bertola , "bzs@theworld.com" Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <492639251.214281.1537522120552@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <110214603.2591.1537520770665@appsuite.open-xchange.com> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1675397439.184108.1537518666153@mail.yahoo.com> <110214603.2591.1537520770665@appsuite.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_214280_783717991.1537522120550" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12487 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:28:51 -0000 ------=_Part_214280_783717991.1537522120550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vittorio, > No, seriously: it's a huge job but it's also a huge and important issue, = so why not: once you have a standard way, for people who want to do > so, t= o use the "Internet Content Tagging Protocol" I REALLY like your idea and love the name!=C2=A0 Indeed, a huge and importa= nt issue.=C2=A0 Thank you so much for your thoughts.=C2=A0=C2=A0 You know, the search engines HAVE quite a bit of data already.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= I wonder if that can be leveraged. In any case, I have to say that the way this discussion has gone and the wo= nderful ideas that have come out really show how very special the IETF is i= n terms of the level of intellect and dialogue.=C2=A0 =C2=A0(And, Stephen, = PLEASE poke holes.=C2=A0 We need you to find all the flaws you can.) I wonder if it is time to ask for a different email list for this topic?=C2= =A0 I wonder if where this may be headed is a potential WG. Thoughts?=C2=A0 I think we can use some of the words that Vittorio and Barr= y have used as the start for a potential charter. Of course, now we need a cute acronym for this group... Thanks,Nalini =20 ------=_Part_214280_783717991.1537522120550 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= font face=3D"HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande= , sans-serif" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1537520114488_14255">Vittorio,=

= > No, seriously: it's a huge job but it's also a huge and important issu= e, so why not: once you have a standard way, for people who want to do >= so, to use the "Internet Content Tagging Protocol"

I RE= ALLY like your idea and love the name!  Indeed, a huge and important i= ssue.  Thank you so much for your thoughts.  

You = know, the search engines HAVE quite a bit of data already.   I wo= nder if that can be leveraged.

In any case, I have to say that = the way this discussion has gone and the wonderful ideas that have come out= really show how very special the IETF is in terms of the level of intellec= t and dialogue.   (And, Stephen, PLEASE poke holes.  We need= you to find all the flaws you can.)

I wonder if it is time to ask fo= r a different email list for this topic?  I wonder if where this may b= e headed is a potential WG.

Thoughts?  I think we can use some o= f the words that Vittorio and Barry have used as the start for a potential = charter.

<= /div>
Of course, now we need a cute acronym for this group...

Thanks,
Nalini




------=_Part_214280_783717991.1537522120550-- From nobody Fri Sep 21 03:57:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49A8130E68 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 03:57:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0RwlwYkPJJLV for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 03:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76028130DDE for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 03:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id b19-v6so7908765qkc.6 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 03:56:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=UPhTfmm9vaujoXgu0C+92jj3QV5kZQjT4JbZbImJHpM=; b=JOkhus712VVWtvbnwfoZ/M7UsbHcAmCzWazrOfKaNAD2Dx6mvdTqHO4+8qkfq+edEC lBR6hJzHsiygaIYWhq41Ue2Z8mJRmbFfanKvXlYEPBH/HilQV+VmMYGuVkXzVHn3EKZI R5b+FwfO95iG5FnwtpwopnMMZm0secYqpVnVHS2dUQZDlKBrdPMuWHm28J3XHSvQkf7E VKs57QM0j43vtMhlC5jQGXcNH/tEFTJiA2CcbMqkeQKom4X/Fd5FVD6qSBxWoxC6Ya5i DjATuKbRqwG4IAI6jI/M1WQ55fE4vp98+4r9suGjffqfLvASWhsQoYqVlqg1xN9CjgIh oyvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=UPhTfmm9vaujoXgu0C+92jj3QV5kZQjT4JbZbImJHpM=; b=c1CWrDfa8PDWjXr7uKJRiBBue55N1ySBp9Stnee61cnemT6l8etcQXcL+Qp7H4hzyY 3s4dcwlDn4DbzgQRqOZNVoOwDNHngXBK5rQvGOYDX2qXTejedTEKgvjput3yjzLRY7ij NQ4Zx+mfp6u2fSH0EW2p2ghlD1Rj9mYpaK5pfBbsyDmWzDmW/dAUB+WG1DaDfOP0x2Ey UyZsElLTB270osrhZxO+IrEY+pr0sHsaMBvDbAJEtiZhZ4G8B6qJWE8t3uw1MxWVxyj5 6PjVsJWSl0neu/PfQ9XrmqpwI3T3k+izLnFkzi0kZXYt7s5LpviBfadO9hZzwROr09Lj VG5A== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51AwxGJZrZsFUfBmp+EFs9YOlG9lqsiYGqo7slg1Uw3EqClL+GhZ cUz4d0sS2/i3FsIoDrQPj9hSi1nD X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdYesClPBcvsVngt2E4Hp2ntIW8qZ++RnzClrXc+hIFqUpRAQOqNVWPK7PtfWyS5EDxvAanIMw== X-Received: by 2002:a37:af42:: with SMTP id y63-v6mr30799249qke.87.1537527418173; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 03:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-196-109.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b3-v6sm19963515qtb.80.2018.09.21.03.56.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Sep 2018 03:56:57 -0700 (PDT) To: bzs@theworld.com, Nalini J Elkins Cc: Hrpc References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 06:56:57 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:57:02 -0000 Hi Barry, It is worth noting this activity is associated with human right > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 CESCR15 the right of everyone...to take part in cult= ural life...to > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enjoy the benefits of scientific progress and its ap= plications...the > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protection of the moral and material interests resul= ting from any > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 scientific, literary or artistic production of which= he is the > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 author...the development and the diffusion of scienc= e and culture=C2=A0 It is also the basis for implementing global treaty instruments in both UNESCO and WIPO. It is also worth noting that Bob Kahn's DOI content tagging platform largely exists for providing IPR related information, and has been significantly supported by and in use among multiple copyright communities over the past 20 years.=C2=A0 It also is secure and successfu= lly scaled.=C2=A0 Even RFC's now have DOIs for this purpose.=C2=A0 See RFC766= 9.=C2=A0=C2=A0 For those who enjoy the history, this is not by chance.=C2=A0 Bob - both = in DARPA and CNRI - played a leading role in the instantiation of DNS.=C2=A0= Patrice Lyons, his wife, is a copyright attorney who once worked at UNESCO.=C2=A0 In the mid-1990s, CNRI created the DOI platform to facilita= te tagging of all digital objects to allow discovery of IPR related information and management of the material.=C2=A0 Bob also played perhaps= the most central role in facilitating the existence of the IETF. --tony On 20-Sep-18 10:08 PM, bzs@theworld.com wrote: > Although not identical a closely related issue is copyright protection.= > > This has become a particularly active area since the EU adopted its > digital copyright rules negotiating position (i.e., still in early > stages) on 2018-09-12: > > http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20180906IPR12103/par= liament-adopts-its-position-on-digital-copyright-rules > > In that case my thought was to study how the music industry has > evolved copyright protection over the past 100+ years in the US and > elsewhere. > > In brief (US) they rely on designated third-party agencies (such as > BMI, ASCAP, Harry J Fox) to provide licensing and collect royalties > and distribute those back to copyright owners. And statutory fees set > by the US congress. Private agreements are also possible, and common, > of course. > > The music industry has developed a sophisticated ecosystem and rather > than rely first on threats of criminal prosecution (which is possible > in extreme cases) instead tries to convert as much of the problem as > possible into civil claims (you used my work, you owe me money!) > > This is in stark contrast to the EU directive which approaches the > problem via draconian fines etc. and seems to create none of that > infrastructure. One doubts any of those fines, which could be in the > billions of euros, will go to the content creators and owners. > > As an internetworking example I could imagine creating licensing > agents with various types of licenses for sale depending on intended > use and embedding those into (https etc) SSL certificates. > > Something analogous could be done for content in general. > > For example identification and certification by third-party vetting > organizations which could be embedded into SSL certificates indicating > that a site adheres to certain content standards. > > That sort of thing is very defensible legally (at least in the US) if > the third-party is identified by a trademark (think: Good Housekeeping > Seal of Approval, Underwriters Laboratory.) > > The similarities to managing content in general is potentially useful. > > THE POINT: > > This is a big, big, and complex problem. > > It might take "organic" thinking which embraces the nature of global > networking and creates and evolves infrastructure to respond usefully. > > It's not going to be solved by simple analysis even if that's useful > to thinking about it. > > A problem of this magnitude also requires synthesis of an > implementation ecosystem which can be much more difficult. > > And each aspect of it SHOULDN'T evolve its own unique solution. > From nobody Fri Sep 21 04:02:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A56C8130E8F for ; 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Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:02:40 +0000 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:02:35 +0000 (UTC) From: Reply-To: To: , Nalini J Elkins , Tony Rutkowski Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable References: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327.ref@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12487 YahooMailBasic Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:02:54 -0000 Tony, Thanks so much for the historical background. As we proceed, we definitel= y need to consider your valuable comments and insight. Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 9/21/18, Tony Rutkowski wrote: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols To: bzs@theworld.com, "Nalini J Elkins" Cc: "Hrpc" Date: Friday, September 21, 2018, 11:56 AM =20 Hi Barry, =20 It is worth noting this activity is associated with human right =20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 CESCR15 the right of everyone...to take part in cultural life...to > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enjoy the benefits of scientific progress and its applications...the > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 author...the development and the diffusion of science and culture=C2=A0 =20 It is also the basis for implementing global treaty instruments in both UNESCO and WIPO. =20 It is also worth noting that Bob Kahn's DOI content tagging platform largely exists for providing IPR related information, and has been significantly supported by and in use among multiple copyright communities over the past 20 years.=C2=A0 It also is secure and successfully scaled.=C2=A0 Even RFC's now have DOIs for this purpose.=C2=A0 See RFC7669.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =20 For those who enjoy the history, this is not by chance.=C2=A0 Bob - both in DARPA and CNRI - played a leading role in the instantiation of DNS.=C2=A0 Patrice Lyons, his wife, is a copyright attorney who once worked at UNESCO.=C2=A0 In the mid-1990s, CNRI created the DOI platform to facilitate tagging of all digital objects to allow discovery of IPR related information and management of the material.=C2=A0 Bob also played perhaps the most central role in facilitating the existence of the IETF. =20 --tony =20 On 20-Sep-18 10:08 PM, bzs@theworld.com wrote: > Although not identical a closely related issue is copyright protection. > > This has become a particularly active area since the EU adopted its > digital copyright rules negotiating position (i.e., still in early > stages) on 2018-09-12: > >=C2=A0=20 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20180906IPR12103/parliame= nt-adopts-its-position-on-digital-copyright-rules > > In that case my thought was to study how the music industry has > evolved copyright protection over the past 100+ years in the US and > elsewhere. > > In brief (US) they rely on designated third-party agencies (such as > BMI, ASCAP, Harry J Fox) to provide licensing and collect royalties > and distribute those back to copyright owners. And statutory fees set > by the US congress. Private agreements are also possible, and common, > of course. > > The music industry has developed a sophisticated ecosystem and rather > than rely first on threats of criminal prosecution (which is possible > in extreme cases) instead tries to convert as much of the problem as > possible into civil claims (you used my work, you owe me money!) > > This is in stark contrast to the EU directive which approaches the > problem via draconian fines etc. and seems to create none of that > infrastructure. One doubts any of those fines, which could be in the > billions of euros, will go to the content creators and owners. > > As an internetworking example I could imagine creating licensing > agents with various types of licenses for sale depending on intended > use and embedding those into (https etc) SSL certificates. > > Something analogous could be done for content in general. > > For example identification and certification by third-party vetting > organizations which could be embedded into SSL certificates indicating > that a site adheres to certain content standards. > > That sort of thing is very defensible legally (at least in the US) if > the third-party is identified by a trademark (think: Good Housekeeping > Seal of Approval, Underwriters Laboratory.) > > The similarities to managing content in general is potentially useful. > > THE POINT: > > This is a big, big, and complex problem. > > It might take "organic" thinking which embraces the nature of global > networking and creates and evolves infrastructure to respond usefully. > > It's not going to be solved by simple analysis even if that's useful > to thinking about it. > > A problem of this magnitude also requires synthesis of an > implementation ecosystem which can be much more difficult. > > And each aspect of it SHOULDN'T evolve its own unique solution. > =20 =20 _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 From nobody Fri Sep 21 04:33:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC2F130E8C for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 04:33:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vru59ASU97Tl for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 04:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45082130E69 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 04:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id t39-v6so1310109qtc.8 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 04:33:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=CXyX+cYGul50pgJolFPZsqh1IqiRXBsvqpFGLzDRi94=; b=h9d0fCCBhCpOLfEWXRFVKpFXlZzL/6ooHyOeg5uPAM/Urv/YaKZ7s8Y0u5GWcz+CZD bg3I12UCmuX7A86UtVeL3gGXbKX4MhJKKYNJz4q3+5V6BG0s0N+cW7mZNtPyba9twPZX yvtWXv90QXKe89+kvwRYtagkdPSzeq/JRuB22KaHW5MQMKe24GTh4N5k3D7fN6oy08i7 nzc/siLU9+CkjEQ8zZNCMgCERJ1/92Oi2ICQSAJJbx2NwFiNOPPWaSGQNg600Ewh99q5 GMx5b3US7VKRcaq/2fokO8dTI+ocEImBfQzhmmoLw2yrBYViF80oirtfxhN8oLIRHGQh H4ew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=CXyX+cYGul50pgJolFPZsqh1IqiRXBsvqpFGLzDRi94=; b=nlmtyYPuAS670RQxEhcuydFOXylg721z7uoxYLFCXMB++BJIj/6Mgi1JjGf4tYKSJ0 R/w3aAP8ULYe7XPFkVYYV0n4DwvWLG/GcxdouC7kr+lEzNkqwBmo3KiPC/PQ7K2QjUtB vRNL1U6vl3HYIWCY8eul3eIe06xlf97ALam4vSgfxQnENKnrh3ZakQNS4FCI0R1sxYFz 34n+GwCzKsXbqu7J6rZ7uV7PPfQBP8IsdC33UnkRS0Up3XoVyEQrmto8VIj60u8/TM5o Xvk51KhQ0S15r7477bA2U08RufVLmbqyloLWUFO/g51yaVwqaEESbxOE6yIQALQLZEiC tD/A== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51CqEI2Qcrc7FvC7uqLIObaTA39/5GGEHaHELHjVJ675nlhGjaaR bTh4PH3deZzNLx3mdt5lVqOURkiw X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdasUlnlM/wRtch96f0cIrUtXC27SHc6EP2DABORT6RfArwHTaWRAiO9uOt7eqyP010weOTVQQ== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:9dd0:: with SMTP id p16-v6mr31837852qvf.211.1537529595878; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 04:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-196-109.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z3-v6sm14833332qkc.55.2018.09.21.04.33.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Sep 2018 04:33:15 -0700 (PDT) To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, bzs@theworld.com Cc: Hrpc References: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 07:33:14 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:33:22 -0000 Thanks, Nalini, It is also worth noting that although the recent EU Directive has been getting considerable publicity, the U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) paved the way over the past 20 years on the West side of the pond.=C2=A0 See, e.g., https://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf=C2=A0= The potential penalties are also significant: a defendant faces a monetary fine up to $500,000, up to five years in jail, or both a fine and jail for a first offense, and repeat offenders may be fined up to $1,000,000, as long as ten years in prison, or both a fine and prison. It was the $25 million judgement against ISP Cox Communications in 2015, however, that made it plain that consequences of ignoring the Act's provisions are substantial.=C2=A0 Part of those requirements include a variety of actions to diminish the ISP culpability.=C2=A0 It is here wher= e some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially become non-starters for most ISPs.=C2=A0 The protocol blocking code is already widely available for protecting their interests. So all of this underscores the complexity of the world in which we live, and that there are tensions among the different human rights when analyzed against transport and service protocols. --tony On 21-Sep-18 7:02 AM, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote: > Tony, > > Thanks so much for the historical background. As we proceed, we defin= itely need to consider your valuable comments and insight. > > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 9/21/18, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > > Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols > To: bzs@theworld.com, "Nalini J Elkins" > Cc: "Hrpc" > Date: Friday, September 21, 2018, 11:56 AM > =20 > Hi Barry, > =20 > It is worth noting this activity is associated > with human right > =20 > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 CESCR15 the right of everyone...to take part in > cultural life...to > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enjoy the > benefits of scientific progress and its > applications...the > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protection of > the moral and material interests resulting from any > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 scientific, literary or artistic > production of which he is the > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 > author...the development and the diffusion of science and > culture=C2=A0 > =20 > It is also the > basis for implementing global treaty instruments in both > UNESCO and WIPO. > =20 > It is also worth noting that Bob Kahn's DOI > content tagging platform > largely exists for > providing IPR related information, and has been > significantly supported by and in use among > multiple copyright > communities over the past > 20 years.=C2=A0 It also is secure and successfully > scaled.=C2=A0 Even RFC's now have DOIs for this > purpose.=C2=A0 See RFC7669.=C2=A0=C2=A0 > =20 > For those who enjoy the history, this is not by > chance.=C2=A0 Bob - both in > DARPA and CNRI - > played a leading role in the instantiation of DNS.=C2=A0 > Patrice Lyons, his wife, is a copyright > attorney who once worked at > UNESCO.=C2=A0 In the > mid-1990s, CNRI created the DOI platform to facilitate > tagging of all digital objects to allow > discovery of IPR related > information and > management of the material.=C2=A0 Bob also played perhaps the > most central role in facilitating the existence > of the IETF. > =20 > --tony > =20 > On 20-Sep-18 10:08 PM, bzs@theworld.com > wrote: > > Although not identical a closely > related issue is copyright protection. > > > > This has become a > particularly active area since the EU adopted its > > digital copyright rules negotiating > position (i.e., still in early > > stages) > on 2018-09-12: > > > >=C2=A0=20 > http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20180906IPR12103/parl= iament-adopts-its-position-on-digital-copyright-rules > > > > In that case my > thought was to study how the music industry has > > evolved copyright protection over the past > 100+ years in the US and > > elsewhere. > > > > In brief (US) they > rely on designated third-party agencies (such as > > BMI, ASCAP, Harry J Fox) to provide > licensing and collect royalties > > and > distribute those back to copyright owners. And statutory > fees set > > by the US congress. Private > agreements are also possible, and common, > > of course. > > > > The music industry has developed a > sophisticated ecosystem and rather > > than > rely first on threats of criminal prosecution (which is > possible > > in extreme cases) instead > tries to convert as much of the problem as > > possible into civil claims (you used my > work, you owe me money!) > > > > This is in stark contrast to the EU > directive which approaches the > > problem > via draconian fines etc. and seems to create none of that > > infrastructure. One doubts any of those > fines, which could be in the > > billions > of euros, will go to the content creators and owners. > > > > As an internetworking > example I could imagine creating licensing > > agents with various types of licenses for > sale depending on intended > > use and > embedding those into (https etc) SSL certificates. > > > > Something analogous > could be done for content in general. > > > > For example > identification and certification by third-party vetting > > organizations which could be embedded into > SSL certificates indicating > > that a site > adheres to certain content standards. > > > > That sort of thing is > very defensible legally (at least in the US) if > > the third-party is identified by a > trademark (think: Good Housekeeping > > > Seal of Approval, Underwriters Laboratory.) > > > > The similarities to > managing content in general is potentially useful. > > > > THE POINT: > > > > This is a big, big, > and complex problem. > > > > It might take "organic" thinking > which embraces the nature of global > > > networking and creates and evolves infrastructure to respond > usefully. > > > > It's > not going to be solved by simple analysis even if that's > useful > > to thinking about it. > > > > A problem of this > magnitude also requires synthesis of an > > > implementation ecosystem which can be much more > difficult. > > > > And > each aspect of it SHOULDN'T evolve its own unique > solution. > > > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > =20 From nobody Fri Sep 21 04:51:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00644130E3B for ; 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Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:51:20 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tjWyWWLUoOKm; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:51:20 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (bilbo.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49D8DBE5B; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:51:20 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1537530680; bh=Yr+1u6JI2Ro/UkcMOJOxWUEWNMa71CmweRQz5+Bat00=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=xWpP4nB2JaJZ6xsLEawJrfLsqe9gnaBPBX01xjprqNb+tC8La8GdsloOj0PYeTLEL NwYgvBl4IymCdAxLciA71SEJD43IZ0PNVEPhazCkzB45lw47JDurWQodte4o7Sk0YA KM3BS1Hv3gKJvj4WUn3CICoBEb1X1X/3kDXh8uLk= To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: Hrpc References: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yi28Az8GkoDJT1I7KpIKVzsSxReqSR35g" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:51:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --yi28Az8GkoDJT1I7KpIKVzsSxReqSR35g Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="3th4CB3YFa3ajiwbLbM2Xt05MjnpXwkMk"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <493f7888-0b26-4931-c2c0-f9e5c5e62b82@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols References: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: --3th4CB3YFa3ajiwbLbM2Xt05MjnpXwkMk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A02F7F0E4A70312058A90F4A" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A02F7F0E4A70312058A90F4A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tony, On 21/09/18 12:33, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > It is here where > some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially > become non-starters for most ISPs.=C2=A0 I don't get what you mean by "non-starter" there? IIUC correctly measurements (e.g. [1] was the first search result I found just now) seem to indicate that QUIC is indeed a starter... S. [1] https://blog.apnic.net/2018/05/15/how-much-of-the-internet-is-using-quic/= --------------A02F7F0E4A70312058A90F4A Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t 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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w63-v6sm14715557qkc.52.2018.09.21.06.20.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Sep 2018 06:20:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Hrpc References: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> <493f7888-0b26-4931-c2c0-f9e5c5e62b82@cs.tcd.ie> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <9038c5c0-50f2-f4fc-ac98-e1b1be9041ad@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:20:16 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <493f7888-0b26-4931-c2c0-f9e5c5e62b82@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 13:20:21 -0000 Hi Stephen, The "non-starter" remark refers to commercial ISPs who tend to be risk adverse.=C2=A0 CEO's tend not to like 25 million dollar fines or at the extreme, life in an orange suit in prison.=C2=A0 QUIC, and to some extent= , TLS1.3, are loaded DMCA time bombs for ISPs.=C2=A0 Within legal communiti= es, there is considerable treatment of the concerns, and some significant middlebox vendors have advised blocking while offering the capabilities as part of their service packages.=C2=A0 It'll take but one high profile action against an ISP allowing customers using QUIC or TLS1.3 to illicitly distributing copyright protected works, to ramp up the blocking market and drive down traffic metrics. It is easy to roll out these capabilities when you don't bear the risk.=C2= =A0 Thusfar, the plaintiffs in these litigations have not moved up the "foodchain" and gone after standards bodies.=C2=A0 Fortunately, ISOC purchased considerable liability insurance for IETF parties approving standards.=C2=A0 Presumably, the new IETF LLC will take similar steps to mitigate the risk. --tony On 21-Sep-18 7:51 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > Tony, > > On 21/09/18 12:33, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >> It is here where >> some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially >> become non-starters for most ISPs.=C2=A0 > I don't get what you mean by "non-starter" there? > IIUC correctly measurements (e.g. [1] was the first > search result I found just now) seem to indicate > that QUIC is indeed a starter... > > S. > > [1] > https://blog.apnic.net/2018/05/15/how-much-of-the-internet-is-using-qui= c/ From nobody Fri Sep 21 06:29:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE360130E97 for ; 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Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:29:28 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.34]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2mmkmgkj0q-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:29:27 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag3mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1365.1; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:29:27 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1365.1; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:29:27 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1365.000; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:29:27 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Tony Rutkowski , Stephen Farrell CC: Hrpc Thread-Topic: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols Thread-Index: AQHUUZqZ8RQQNb1YcEGUkhrAL7vnDKT63Z0AgAAFDACAABjbAP//v4IA Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 13:29:27 +0000 Message-ID: <83305BD7-27D1-4961-80B7-CDB67646FA24@akamai.com> References: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> <493f7888-0b26-4931-c2c0-f9e5c5e62b82@cs.tcd.ie> <9038c5c0-50f2-f4fc-ac98-e1b1be9041ad@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9038c5c0-50f2-f4fc-ac98-e1b1be9041ad@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.11.0.180909 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.33.52] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:33:20 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cq50Bt7q-LI5; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:33:19 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (bilbo.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B9CE2BE39; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:33:19 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1537536799; bh=IC/tWhEWRMgTIw4AdlsO3bBAIqyGQ+3Ej0u7uZywDzA=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Fx87S3FiUFLCK2hGoUs0WgDRuWpW6/AaR8ybxx+9MFKx4ldDU3YbIwqGZ1Ld7NWyj G57btTFm84nTqGpIi4k/I55fzrJCYPUOCHCjbMAXxE1ZkR38soeKtd+ZmuMPxpR1SO UdfEhqrD2GJhpgPutH2Z0e6PUSzAJL3A+NgmRpOc= To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: Hrpc References: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> <493f7888-0b26-4931-c2c0-f9e5c5e62b82@cs.tcd.ie> <9038c5c0-50f2-f4fc-ac98-e1b1be9041ad@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9038c5c0-50f2-f4fc-ac98-e1b1be9041ad@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AgtMzfS7jsIpfGT543mfp33P5JtAvOYFq" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 13:33:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --AgtMzfS7jsIpfGT543mfp33P5JtAvOYFq Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ATCvljKCFFTem1wpBCBzaCeBVcbDeHyJG"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols References: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> <493f7888-0b26-4931-c2c0-f9e5c5e62b82@cs.tcd.ie> <9038c5c0-50f2-f4fc-ac98-e1b1be9041ad@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9038c5c0-50f2-f4fc-ac98-e1b1be9041ad@gmail.com> --ATCvljKCFFTem1wpBCBzaCeBVcbDeHyJG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ABC3BFD7E513855853E8ED96" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ABC3BFD7E513855853E8ED96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 21/09/18 14:20, Tony Rutkowski wrote: > Hi Stephen, >=20 > The "non-starter" remark refers to commercial ISPs who tend to be risk > adverse.=C2=A0 CEO's tend not to like 25 million dollar fines or at the= > extreme, life in an orange suit in prison.=C2=A0 QUIC, and to some exte= nt, > TLS1.3, are loaded DMCA time bombs for ISPs.=C2=A0=20 I don't follow the logic there at all. The majority of the web is encrypted already and there's no DMCA relevant difference between that and TLS1.2/QUIC that I can see. Seems to me like a non-issue. (The transition to encrypted transports does cause some issues for network operators, but not DMCA issues afaik, but feel free to enlighten me as to which aspect of QUIC or TLS you see as being DMCA relevant.) > Within legal communities, > there is considerable treatment of the concerns, and some significant > middlebox vendors have advised blocking while offering the capabilities= > as part of their service packages.=C2=A0=20 Not a surprise that vendors of kit that needs to change or is being made OBE advise against change. > It'll take but one high profile > action against an ISP allowing customers using QUIC or TLS1.3 to > illicitly distributing copyright protected works, to ramp up the > blocking market and drive down traffic metrics. >=20 > It is easy to roll out these capabilities when you don't bear the risk.= =C2=A0 > Thusfar, the plaintiffs in these litigations have not moved up the > "foodchain" and gone after standards bodies.=C2=A0 Fortunately, ISOC > purchased considerable liability insurance for IETF parties approving > standards.=C2=A0 Presumably, the new IETF LLC will take similar steps t= o > mitigate the risk. FWIW, that seems more like scare-mongering to me. S. >=20 > --tony >=20 >=20 > On 21-Sep-18 7:51 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> Tony, >> >> On 21/09/18 12:33, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >>> It is here where >>> some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially >>> become non-starters for most ISPs.=C2=A0 >> I don't get what you mean by "non-starter" there? >> IIUC correctly measurements (e.g. [1] was the first >> search result I found just now) seem to indicate >> that QUIC is indeed a starter... >> >> S. >> >> [1] >> https://blog.apnic.net/2018/05/15/how-much-of-the-internet-is-using-qu= ic/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --------------ABC3BFD7E513855853E8ED96 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- 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name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAluk8x4ACgkQWrL68XsX K+oWXhAAiNkTLVON0nVR8uf1DMrVnNC+IVfDY78y33KN66Wo9c86PUnBH56eKhOY P0WYrORmxUdb04TawJNdJPrtDF/DFOFat7ZZH6tOp2qjlVyklB9IU+B7BnCgH3KY f3X3YOW5yQbVVzJrX96YafUo0F4UHOgZbm0NbCjcdeaGBxzsKfPghk5BvFhdmshd 3NGfoaZ74cSRLbiAjguCkghJfPq7rDlvuUnTZUKo7dVWNR+tEqH49NyxhjFrFJjL zwMx/1H9Bxn7qLuPWuAJD4eTOWix35obIRE67DeIdgKbAlVUnsNP9xL5UPmaoNyr xtmE5gkjtXmf4ocuZ2GfTQhj+ujqyGA5R1EK0C79Zma5Ov2Qe0zNmxah5a6JIPyr dVyq1PP3h5gVk76AElNGb+Nrqo5ZvmbzGNH2iHdwIKA47O1/19h14SnOpjv/MJlN 9e624bNMqqyAgJ1J99Z63bWAFcknEshoa1iFH1sPAiDAs1Tkg198noc0SW3p0HIO p5yErJdadFt3Sl2HXVRHDkGHH8+zCa0gK518hJuU276bDoIb5hXSszAZ/dtoNIV1 k/TGsTGAApheDG2Jt9GDaCLkURsVaSr2BN+od5yFH2dq7Ew5/YKGAIfZhWHN48Q9 1YnkUIaYN35ylul61Lkp+FeTfWD0CDiGMZ8dO9KffexY64gE+Nk= =HTVz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AgtMzfS7jsIpfGT543mfp33P5JtAvOYFq-- From 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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m51-v6sm20376548qtc.85.2018.09.21.08.07.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:07:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Hrpc References: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> <493f7888-0b26-4931-c2c0-f9e5c5e62b82@cs.tcd.ie> <9038c5c0-50f2-f4fc-ac98-e1b1be9041ad@gmail.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <0b2e3110-d9ff-c24e-a8a5-f242e01b4da8@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:07:01 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:07:07 -0000 The standard under the DMCA is "willful contributory copyright infringement."=C2=A0 The Act also provides several means of achieving a "= safe harbor" status, although in general it must take due diligence steps in preventing and mitigating unlawful distribution by those using their facilities and services.=C2=A0 The initiating judicial complaint in BMG v= =2E Cox which initiated the adverse judgement and penalty against Cox describes at some length the use of encryption capabilities - largely in the form of BitTorrent - being at issue.=C2=A0 The court and a jury agree= d. So while one can certainly argue that technically, the use of encrypted transport path protocols and services are functionally similar,=C2=A0 the= ISP must ask itself if it is willing to bear the risk of penalties for willful contributory copyright infringement.=C2=A0 Those representing copyright owners have substantial incentives to emulate the BMG v Cox case - hence the "loaded DMCA time bomb" characterization. On "scare-mongering," the adverse litigation against standards bodies and substantial (million dollar) costs are quite real after ETSI was found as a contributory party for its 3GPP Secretariat support by a US Federal Court in Trueposition v. Ericsson four years ago.=C2=A0 Those responsible for IETF LLC will doubtlessly want to continue the liability insurance the ISOC began providing in 1994 and institute actions that limit its culpability. --t On 21-Sep-18 9:33 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On 21/09/18 14:20, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >> Hi Stephen, >> >> The "non-starter" remark refers to commercial ISPs who tend to be risk= >> adverse.=C2=A0 CEO's tend not to like 25 million dollar fines or at th= e >> extreme, life in an orange suit in prison.=C2=A0 QUIC, and to some ext= ent, >> TLS1.3, are loaded DMCA time bombs for ISPs.=C2=A0=20 > I don't follow the logic there at all. The majority of > the web is encrypted already and there's no DMCA relevant > difference between that and TLS1.2/QUIC that I can see. > Seems to me like a non-issue. > > (The transition to encrypted transports does cause some > issues for network operators, but not DMCA issues afaik, > but feel free to enlighten me as to which aspect of QUIC > or TLS you see as being DMCA relevant.) > >> Within legal communities, >> there is considerable treatment of the concerns, and some significant >> middlebox vendors have advised blocking while offering the capabilitie= s >> as part of their service packages.=C2=A0=20 > Not a surprise that vendors of kit that needs to change > or is being made OBE advise against change. > >> It'll take but one high profile >> action against an ISP allowing customers using QUIC or TLS1.3 to >> illicitly distributing copyright protected works, to ramp up the >> blocking market and drive down traffic metrics. >> >> It is easy to roll out these capabilities when you don't bear the risk= =2E=C2=A0 >> Thusfar, the plaintiffs in these litigations have not moved up the >> "foodchain" and gone after standards bodies.=C2=A0 Fortunately, ISOC >> purchased considerable liability insurance for IETF parties approving >> standards.=C2=A0 Presumably, the new IETF LLC will take similar steps = to >> mitigate the risk. > FWIW, that seems more like scare-mongering to me. > > S. > >> --tony >> >> >> On 21-Sep-18 7:51 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>> Tony, >>> >>> On 21/09/18 12:33, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >>>> It is here where >>>> some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially= >>>> become non-starters for most ISPs.=C2=A0 >>> I don't get what you mean by "non-starter" there? >>> IIUC correctly measurements (e.g. [1] was the first >>> search result I found just now) seem to indicate >>> that QUIC is indeed a starter... >>> >>> S. >>> >>> [1] >>> https://blog.apnic.net/2018/05/15/how-much-of-the-internet-is-using-q= uic/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> From nobody Fri Sep 21 08:24:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00801130D7A for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:24:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qj-yNuDF6h0X for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4406E130E69 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FE836A24E; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:24:16 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1537543456; bh=Sxa5d9LeRlcv+P7yHL0mNcSU5V4YDLiZ/Sf9oqaSc3I=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=nqww0Qji/dyCVHeeMScJ2gRlEyJxu0ESZWc3lRuFUe6iTFmGpFw6xjmigatmin4Fv 10SWUskMamoldkNv+psM5kR3r8KOdMPp1viVNEAOvUbeZDFiFuseAqv1AR+CKHh6Dw 4CmQ1t3Nd/RTj8KfDCHX1UOH7E/L0KWBiWPPNOu8t0+qN3UxeLLMIRbvXEZoEscf9r Qtw+bB19xVon1lA+IzhmKlFb2Ju147GmFHMTXoXOe4XUUd8WYBnhFPs/mbw/sh8Hd0 yn1zJQI6yaIqQseNq5imy1wfqwOHfmULcF92JiwosQgM+ntuyj68hvVRQLZZyFwrDB Oq2kx/BjBNuaQ== Received: from null (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3EEF73C18CC; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:24:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:24:16 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Tony Rutkowski , Stephen Farrell Cc: Hrpc Message-ID: <1167725375.4078.1537543456197@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <0b2e3110-d9ff-c24e-a8a5-f242e01b4da8@gmail.com> References: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> <493f7888-0b26-4931-c2c0-f9e5c5e62b82@cs.tcd.ie> <9038c5c0-50f2-f4fc-ac98-e1b1be9041ad@gmail.com> <0b2e3110-d9ff-c24e-a8a5-f242e01b4da8@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev15 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:24:20 -0000 > Il 21 settembre 2018 alle 17.07 Tony Rutkowski = ha scritto: >=20 > So while one can certainly argue that technically, the use of encrypted > transport path protocols and services are functionally similar,=C2=A0 the= ISP > must ask itself if it is willing to bear the risk of penalties for > willful contributory copyright infringement.=C2=A0 I have a non-rhetorical question: can not blocking encrypted transport be r= eally considered a "willful" contribution to copyright infringement? I coul= d see some court deciding that BitTorrent is a specialized encrypted protoc= ol used most frequently to transmit copyrighted material in unauthorized wa= ys, but can you say the same of any encrypted protocol in general? In other= words, if unauthorized copyrighted material is just a small fraction of th= e overall content that is transmitted over an encrypted protocol, how can y= ou say that allowing that protocol to pass equates to promoting copyright i= nfringement? I also understand that ISPs may just want to avoid to have to argue about t= his in court and thus stop these protocols anyway, but wouldn't that break = other laws (e.g. network neutrality) and contracts? Regards, --=20 Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Fri Sep 21 08:32:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E20E130E7A for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:32:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 42Hlq6UrIEB0 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x835.google.com (mail-qt1-x835.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::835]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 175F412777C for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x835.google.com with SMTP id l42-v6so2094627qtf.13 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:32:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=XLauB5GF/hqBPKip3NtK832sf3A9NgxBykPT69SNw7o=; b=mMu+/H8jQjsWGQs1ywJmiz0BhmwLz1X056G+668ybi8FIkF2Ma29jX5rg0ioFJQ6MZ 98prTXDPfcTIH57+pIfBCIMifw0dGgIA1VSKqL05XWhDEktDCajMeVJPT5fnAXv++RK6 x5vX2BNe7pjuIf0T62SO5MqaQhVSMvLxoabIWr20L5OecIOcOuhgLMOQJCMW6TZ9hJEi LmXAyrCrE0rgtUT+SpgsipMYXHsOMEtavlGB9OcvZKp10Cf7kdFQP2cDIYey3jxRcIRD J3r5u+DOZt6faW7gDwBOKIfM4h2O10bfgDCw8hMBtIkz19DOTEd4gDC6r6WwpAHTYppE hqBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=XLauB5GF/hqBPKip3NtK832sf3A9NgxBykPT69SNw7o=; b=S9CbQrAYVAlLHL+/HdgvWyw4vWiJ6Y23dr9qiLaUX9eDgVetvWpOY6tQ7YNXiQTNg+ sN8S2UcWU8SgAf6qTxKFmdruWkMJbiOsmRlQ95fVz0UUGO2uUZX4vOhKGhYewrfyC+Sn pu41IV6hPeVIvxEfT+tpVquSY0alEVreQygzfp98/0vVdMaTNn2Mb1fvNrQNY+lYCDnW WYtv+hXloU9T52sn92ezi9U8n2H8UbryQxMUiXk+UzRDcbPD8f2fciSm9TxZsoVrR+TS XD20CYaTRX9ByTOdLEw8LWnJlPqIqv3EREUT0hSYVZSzsNG1NuqKdtwXOb6V7+Fse/YC W2WA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51CHks3Ot4xAG7W2VhpfexLbmIXsApJrQwdZLATT5VuIyB1Ok1Q3 3DqJpLefJdU8GyWvRx8TaxPIwx6X X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZ7J4AIwlz3nox4/dnXCL1ksUdo0hokiBj9ZQbQhxYS17R/eWjwRW6QkXKmMHmnnuzFZzbwIw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4758:: with SMTP id k24-v6mr26370804qtp.232.1537543945727; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-196-109.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m12-v6sm683840qke.67.2018.09.21.08.32.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:32:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Vittorio Bertola , Stephen Farrell Cc: Hrpc References: <1653182555.212608.1537527755327.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1653182555.212608.1537527755327@mail.yahoo.com> <493f7888-0b26-4931-c2c0-f9e5c5e62b82@cs.tcd.ie> <9038c5c0-50f2-f4fc-ac98-e1b1be9041ad@gmail.com> <0b2e3110-d9ff-c24e-a8a5-f242e01b4da8@gmail.com> <1167725375.4078.1537543456197@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:32:24 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1167725375.4078.1537543456197@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:32:29 -0000 Hi Vittorio, All good questions/arguments.=C2=A0 Several parties filed briefs making similar arguments at the trial level and before the Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit.=C2=A0 They didn't prevail. Indeed, the ISP actions need to be weighed against other obligations.=C2=A0= However, NetNeutrality is no longer a requirement in the U.S. - in part because of competing interests like the DMCA requirements.=C2=A0 It is no= t clear where the EU is at the moment, but probably characterized as uncertain.=C2=A0 The rest of the world largely eschews the requirement. -t On 21-Sep-18 11:24 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > >> Il 21 settembre 2018 alle 17.07 Tony Rutkowski ha scritto: >> >> So while one can certainly argue that technically, the use of encrypte= d >> transport path protocols and services are functionally similar,=C2=A0 = the ISP >> must ask itself if it is willing to bear the risk of penalties for >> willful contributory copyright infringement.=C2=A0 > I have a non-rhetorical question: can not blocking encrypted transport = be really considered a "willful" contribution to copyright infringement? = I could see some court deciding that BitTorrent is a specialized encrypte= d protocol used most frequently to transmit copyrighted material in unaut= horized ways, but can you say the same of any encrypted protocol in gener= al? In other words, if unauthorized copyrighted material is just a small = fraction of the overall content that is transmitted over an encrypted pro= tocol, how can you say that allowing that protocol to pass equates to pro= moting copyright infringement? > > I also understand that ISPs may just want to avoid to have to argue abo= ut this in court and thus stop these protocols anyway, but wouldn't that = break other laws (e.g. network neutrality) and contracts? > > Regards, From nobody Fri Sep 21 09:01:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B0A130E95 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:01:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BL0SPR01MB03; H:BL0PR06MB4772.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: isoc.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: fUwoUojserxOtjoNl4f3hbJ+G/PkKP4u3yIwRtwCtBZQQlrfmTj37ibL8rCc2IzDsy+Dd4IM+ah43TcgI4lM20W0q8D2Ob/H9cJN6+j/grrzvOcaSe8mnwOZm8XLLnmelCMVb864qkLOK00Lu50toVu2Qoz46Pm7NUf4baBqdwmRznT1PzybVs4NAp9bHvMtAUs4bj2mAJ9h/1opEEpfoM7U58H2QOAaIBOwhYvXj5y4UIYRIr7dEUDM1SyiiZMB7x2ZpXeQJvexesZNm8fDZgWmrT9BUX3VRTH/E6Yzyir64E27G0n5P1EH8hGcnzNJNRiBdaLSLtmgq5X0UDDHN/kFegYvY34WbQdUUcWzaCE= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0A487B2C-E1A6-4028-ACA6-CF2311AA520B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3215e00e-b4c6-4daf-3651-08d61fdb6736 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Sep 2018 16:00:50.7533 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0SPR01MB03 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 16:01:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0A487B2C-E1A6-4028-ACA6-CF2311AA520B Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BF15C495-310A-434F-BF7B-F64CE242D345" --Apple-Mail=_BF15C495-310A-434F-BF7B-F64CE242D345 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >=20 > From: Tony Rutkowski > Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols > Date: 21 September 2018 at 12:33:14 GMT+1 > To: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, bzs@theworld.com > Cc: Hrpc >=20 > It was the $25 million judgement against ISP Cox Communications in = 2015, > however, that made it plain that consequences of ignoring the Act's > provisions are substantial. Part of those requirements include a > variety of actions to diminish the ISP culpability. It is here where > some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially > become non-starters for most ISPs. The protocol blocking code is > already widely available for protecting their interests. >=20 > =E2=80=94tony (1) As I understand it, the ruling against Cox was not because they had = failed to detect subscribers illegally sharing copyright material, it = was because - when formally notified that it was happening, Cox failed = to implement its own policy for disconnecting persistent offenders. In = other words, the copyright-holder determined that illegal sharing was = taking place, and notified Cox. Presumably, the copyright holder was = able to do this without having access to Cox subscribers=E2=80=99 = Internet traffic=E2=80=A6 ... >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Tony Rutkowski > Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols > Date: 21 September 2018 at 14:20:16 GMT+1 > To: Stephen Farrell > Cc: Hrpc >=20 >=20 > Hi Stephen, >=20 > The "non-starter" remark refers to commercial ISPs who tend to be risk > adverse. CEO's tend not to like 25 million dollar fines or at the > extreme, life in an orange suit in prison. QUIC, and to some extent, > TLS1.3, are loaded DMCA time bombs for ISPs. Within legal = communities, > there is considerable treatment of the concerns, and some significant > middlebox vendors have advised blocking while offering the = capabilities > as part of their service packages. It'll take but one high profile > action against an ISP allowing customers using QUIC or TLS1.3 to > illicitly distributing copyright protected works, to ramp up the > blocking market and drive down traffic metrics. (2) Perhaps I=E2=80=99m missing the point, but I don=E2=80=99t follow = the logic here. Let=E2=80=99s consider two scenarios: one in which the = ISP allows subscribers to establish encrypted sessions to websites, and = one in whcih it does not. - if the ISP allows subscribers to establish encrypted sessions to = websites, how is the ISP to know that copyright material is being = transmitted? If the ISP *cannot* know by inspecting the traffic, how can = they be held liable for it? (This is why it=E2=80=99s relevant that Cox = weren=E2=80=99t fined for not knowing; they were fined because they did = nothing when notified by the copyright holder.) Surely, allowing = encrypted sessions between subscribers and websites provides the ISP = with plausible deniability, not greater liability. - if the ISP prevents subscribers from establishing encrypted sessions = to websites (and can therefore inspect the contents of subscribers=E2=80=99= traffic), how is it to know that copyright material is being shared = illegally? (When an online retailer offers to =E2=80=9Cauto-rip=E2=80=9D = a CD I=E2=80=99ve just bought, how is the ISP to judge whether that = transmission of copyright material is legal or not?). Even if we assume these issues can be dealt with, we=E2=80=99re left = with the implication that, just in order to allow ISPs to check for = copyright material, there must be no such thing as end to end encryption = - and that seems like a very odd position to take. It=E2=80=99s also one = which I think is vulnerable to a reductio ad absurdam: if QUIC is the = =E2=80=9Cguilty party=E2=80=9D here, and must be banned for facilitating = the unlawful distribution of copyright material, why stop there? Where = in the OSI stack is there a layer that doesn=E2=80=99t facilitate the = unlawful distribution of copyright material? >=20 > It is easy to roll out these capabilities when you don't bear the = risk. > Thusfar, the plaintiffs in these litigations have not moved up the > "foodchain" and gone after standards bodies. Fortunately, ISOC > purchased considerable liability insurance for IETF parties approving > standards. Presumably, the new IETF LLC will take similar steps to > mitigate the risk. >=20 > =E2=80=94tony (3) Is this genuinely your risk assessment? By implication, the people = who come up with the manufacturing standards for firearms and ammunition = ought to be quaking in their boots at the prospect of an avalanche of = lawsuits for manslaughter. Yrs., Robin >=20 >=20 > On 21-Sep-18 7:51 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> Tony, >>=20 >> On 21/09/18 12:33, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >>> It is here where >>> some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially >>> become non-starters for most ISPs. >> I don't get what you mean by "non-starter" there? >> IIUC correctly measurements (e.g. [1] was the first >> search result I found just now) seem to indicate >> that QUIC is indeed a starter... >>=20 >> S. >>=20 >> [1] >> = https://blog.apnic.net/2018/05/15/how-much-of-the-internet-is-using-quic/ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --Apple-Mail=_BF15C495-310A-434F-BF7B-F64CE242D345 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

From: Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and = Protocols
Date: 21= September 2018 at 12:33:14 GMT+1
To: = nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, bzs@theworld.com
Cc: = Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>

It was the = $25 million judgement against ISP Cox Communications in 2015,
however, that made it plain that consequences of ignoring the = Act's
provisions are substantial.  Part of those = requirements include a
variety of actions to diminish the = ISP culpability.  It is here where
some of the new = encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially
become = non-starters for most ISPs.  The protocol blocking code is
already widely available for protecting their interests.

=E2=80=94tony

(1) As I understand it, the ruling against Cox was = not because they had failed to detect subscribers illegally sharing = copyright material, it was because - when formally notified that it was = happening, Cox failed to implement its own policy for disconnecting = persistent offenders. In other words, the copyright-holder determined = that illegal sharing was taking place, and notified Cox. Presumably, the = copyright holder was able to do this without having access to Cox = subscribers=E2=80=99 Internet traffic=E2=80=A6 ... 





From: = Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and = Protocols
Date: 21= September 2018 at 14:20:16 GMT+1
To: = Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: = Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>


Hi Stephen,

The "non-starter" remark refers to commercial = ISPs who tend to be risk
adverse.  CEO's tend not to = like 25 million dollar fines or at the
extreme, life in an = orange suit in prison.  QUIC, and to some extent,
TLS1.3, are loaded DMCA time bombs for ISPs.  Within = legal communities,
there is considerable treatment of the = concerns, and some significant
middlebox vendors have = advised blocking while offering the capabilities
as part = of their service packages.  It'll take but one high profile
action against an ISP allowing customers using QUIC or TLS1.3 = to
illicitly distributing copyright protected works, to = ramp up the
blocking market and drive down traffic = metrics.

(2) Perhaps I=E2=80=99m missing the point, but I = don=E2=80=99t follow the logic here. Let=E2=80=99s consider two = scenarios: one in which the ISP allows subscribers to establish = encrypted sessions to websites, and one in whcih it does = not.

- if the ISP allows subscribers = to establish encrypted sessions to websites, how is the ISP to know that = copyright material is being transmitted? If the ISP *cannot* know by = inspecting the traffic, how can they be held liable for it? (This is why = it=E2=80=99s relevant that Cox weren=E2=80=99t fined for not knowing; = they were fined because they did nothing when notified by the copyright = holder.) Surely, allowing encrypted sessions between subscribers and = websites provides the ISP with plausible deniability, not greater = liability.

- if the ISP prevents = subscribers from establishing encrypted sessions to websites (and can = therefore inspect the contents of subscribers=E2=80=99 traffic), how is = it to know that copyright material is being shared illegally? (When an = online retailer offers to =E2=80=9Cauto-rip=E2=80=9D a CD I=E2=80=99ve = just bought, how is the ISP to judge whether that transmission of = copyright material is legal or not?).  

Even if we assume these issues can be dealt with, = we=E2=80=99re left with the implication that, just in order to allow = ISPs to check for copyright material, there must be no such thing as end = to end encryption - and that seems like a very odd position to take. = It=E2=80=99s also one which I think is vulnerable to a reductio ad = absurdam: if QUIC is the =E2=80=9Cguilty party=E2=80=9D here, and must = be banned for facilitating the unlawful distribution of copyright = material, why stop there? Where in the OSI stack is there a layer that = doesn=E2=80=99t facilitate the unlawful distribution of copyright = material? 


It is easy to roll out these = capabilities when you don't bear the risk. 
Thusfar, = the plaintiffs in these litigations have not moved up the
"foodchain" and gone after standards bodies.  = Fortunately, ISOC
purchased considerable liability = insurance for IETF parties approving
standards.  = Presumably, the new IETF LLC will take similar steps to
mitigate the risk.

=E2=80=94tony

(3) Is = this genuinely your risk assessment? By implication, the people who come = up with the manufacturing standards for firearms and ammunition ought to = be quaking in their boots at the prospect of an avalanche of lawsuits = for manslaughter.

Yrs.,
Robin



On 21-Sep-18 7:51 AM, Stephen Farrell = wrote:
Tony,

On 21/09/18 12:33, Tony Rutkowski wrote:
It is here where
some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - = essentially
become non-starters for most ISPs. 
I don't get what you mean by "non-starter" = there?
IIUC correctly measurements (e.g. [1] was the = first
search result I found just now) seem to indicate
that QUIC is indeed a starter...

S.

[1]
https://blog.apnic.net/2018/05/15/how-much-of-the-internet-is-u= sing-quic/





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https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

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WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6A53B3B114B92604142FA7CC" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 16:34:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6A53B3B114B92604142FA7CC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robin, (1) The challenge here is that there have been multiple court decisions at both trial and appellate levels.=C2=A0 The matter is further complicat= ed by the DMCA itself - which provides a cause of action as well as a safe harbor defense, treatment of evidence, and basis for penalties.=C2=A0 4th= Circuit decision earlier this year is a 37 page complicated treatment of all these variables.=C2=A0 It involves considerably more than just failin= g to implements the ISP's own policies.=C2=A0 See at http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/161972.P.pdf (2) The courts seem to reject the plausible deniability argument.=C2=A0 Indeed, it arguably suggests unlawful activity might be occurring, and analysis of the traffic flows and end point analysis might suggest that the DMCA proscribed activity in particular is occurring.=C2=A0 There has = been considerable discussion of the topic in legal and public policy blogs and articles over the past year - particularly as to the effects of the termination of NetNeutrality. (3) It is not only my risk assessment, but also that of most standards body governing officials. =C2=A0 Indeed, the concerns go beyond just standards activities and described as Directors and Officers Liability Insurance.=C2=A0 In the case of ISOC and the IETF, it was a decision of i= ts Board circa 1994 as it assumed greater responsibilities for the IETF. --tony On 21-Sep-18 12:00 PM, Robin Wilton wrote: > >> >> *From: *Tony Rutkowski > > >> *Subject: **Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protoco= ls* >> *Date: *21 September 2018 at 12:33:14 GMT+1 >> *To: *nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com >> , bzs@theworld.com >> >> *Cc: *Hrpc > >> >> It was the $25 million judgement against ISP Cox Communications in 201= 5, >> however, that made it plain that consequences of ignoring the Act's >> provisions are substantial.=C2=A0 Part of those requirements include a= >> variety of actions to diminish the ISP culpability.=C2=A0 It is here w= here >> some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially >> become non-starters for most ISPs.=C2=A0 The protocol blocking code is= >> already widely available for protecting their interests. >> >> =E2=80=94tony > > (1) As I understand it, the ruling against Cox was not because they > had failed to detect subscribers illegally sharing copyright material, > it was because - when formally notified that it was happening, Cox > failed to implement its own policy for disconnecting persistent > offenders. In other words, the copyright-holder determined that > illegal sharing was taking place, and notified Cox. Presumably, the > copyright holder was able to do this without having access to Cox > subscribers=E2=80=99 Internet traffic=E2=80=A6 ...=C2=A0 > > >> >> >> >> *From: *Tony Rutkowski > > >> *Subject: **Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protoco= ls* >> *Date: *21 September 2018 at 14:20:16 GMT+1 >> *To: *Stephen Farrell > > >> *Cc: *Hrpc > >> >> >> Hi Stephen, >> >> The "non-starter" remark refers to commercial ISPs who tend to be risk= >> adverse.=C2=A0 CEO's tend not to like 25 million dollar fines or at th= e >> extreme, life in an orange suit in prison.=C2=A0 QUIC, and to some ext= ent, >> TLS1.3, are loaded DMCA time bombs for ISPs.=C2=A0 Within legal commun= ities, >> there is considerable treatment of the concerns, and some significant >> middlebox vendors have advised blocking while offering the capabilitie= s >> as part of their service packages.=C2=A0 It'll take but one high profi= le >> action against an ISP allowing customers using QUIC or TLS1.3 to >> illicitly distributing copyright protected works, to ramp up the >> blocking market and drive down traffic metrics. > > (2) Perhaps I=E2=80=99m missing the point, but I don=E2=80=99t follow t= he logic here. > Let=E2=80=99s consider two scenarios: one in which the ISP allows subsc= ribers > to establish encrypted sessions to websites, and one in whcih it does n= ot. > > - if the ISP allows subscribers to establish encrypted sessions to > websites, how is the ISP to know that copyright material is being > transmitted? If the ISP *cannot* know by inspecting the traffic, how > can they be held liable for it? (This is why it=E2=80=99s relevant that= Cox > weren=E2=80=99t fined for not knowing; they were fined because they did= > nothing when notified by the copyright holder.) Surely, allowing > encrypted sessions between subscribers and websites provides the ISP > with plausible deniability, not greater liability. > > - if the ISP prevents subscribers from establishing encrypted sessions > to websites (and can therefore inspect the contents of subscribers=E2=80= =99 > traffic), how is it to know that copyright material is being shared > illegally? (When an online retailer offers to =E2=80=9Cauto-rip=E2=80=9D= a CD I=E2=80=99ve > just bought, how is the ISP to judge whether that transmission of > copyright material is legal or not?). =C2=A0 > > Even if we assume these issues can be dealt with, we=E2=80=99re left wi= th the > implication that, just in order to allow ISPs to check for copyright > material, there must be no such thing as end to end encryption - and > that seems like a very odd position to take. It=E2=80=99s also one whic= h I > think is vulnerable to a reductio ad absurdam: if QUIC is the =E2=80=9C= guilty > party=E2=80=9D here, and must be banned for facilitating the unlawful > distribution of copyright material, why stop there? Where in the OSI > stack is there a layer that doesn=E2=80=99t facilitate the unlawful > distribution of copyright material?=C2=A0 > >> >> It is easy to roll out these capabilities when you don't bear the risk= =2E=C2=A0 >> Thusfar, the plaintiffs in these litigations have not moved up the >> "foodchain" and gone after standards bodies.=C2=A0 Fortunately, ISOC >> purchased considerable liability insurance for IETF parties approving >> standards.=C2=A0 Presumably, the new IETF LLC will take similar steps = to >> mitigate the risk. >> >> =E2=80=94tony > > (3) Is this genuinely your risk assessment? By implication, the people > who come up with the manufacturing standards for firearms and > ammunition ought to be quaking in their boots at the prospect of an > avalanche of lawsuits for manslaughter. > > Yrs., > Robin > >> >> >> On 21-Sep-18 7:51 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>> Tony, >>> >>> On 21/09/18 12:33, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >>>> It is here where >>>> some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially= >>>> become non-starters for most ISPs.=C2=A0 >>> I don't get what you mean by "non-starter" there? >>> IIUC correctly measurements (e.g. [1] was the first >>> search result I found just now) seem to indicate >>> that QUIC is indeed a starter... >>> >>> S. >>> >>> [1] >>> https://blog.apnic.net/2018/05/15/how-much-of-the-internet-is-using-q= uic/ >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --------------6A53B3B114B92604142FA7CC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Robin,

(1) The challenge here is that there have been multiple court decisions at both trial and appellate levels.  The matter is further complicated by the DMCA itself - which provides a cause of action as well as a safe harbor defense, treatment of evidence, and basis for penalties.  4th Circuit decision earlier this year is a 37 page complicated treatment of all these variables.  It involves considerably more than just failing to implements the ISP's own policies.  See at http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/161972.P.pdf

(2) The courts seem to reject the plausible deniability argument.  Indeed, it arguably suggests unlawful activity might be occurring, and analysis of the traffic flows and end point analysis might suggest that the DMCA proscribed activity in particular is occurring.  There has been considerable discussion of the topic in legal and public policy blogs and articles over the past year - particularly as to the effects of the termination of NetNeutrality.

(3) It is not only my risk assessment, but also that of most standards body governing officials.   Indeed, the concerns go beyond just standards activities and described as Directors and Officers Liability Insurance.  In the case of ISOC and the IETF, it was a decision of its Board circa 1994 as it assumed greater responsibilities for the IETF.

--tony

On 21-Sep-18 12:00 PM, Robin Wilton wrote:


From: Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols
Date: 21 September 2018 at 12:33:14 GMT+1
Cc: Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>

It was the $25 million judgement against ISP Cox Communications in 2015,
however, that made it plain that consequences of ignoring the Act's
provisions are substantial.  Part of those requirements include a
variety of actions to diminish the ISP culpability.  It is here where
some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially
become non-starters for most ISPs.  The protocol blocking code is
already widely available for protecting their interests.

—tony

(1) As I understand it, the ruling against Cox was not because they had failed to detect subscribers illegally sharing copyright material, it was because - when formally notified that it was happening, Cox failed to implement its own policy for disconnecting persistent offenders. In other words, the copyright-holder determined that illegal sharing was taking place, and notified Cox. Presumably, the copyright holder was able to do this without having access to Cox subscribers’ Internet traffic… ... 





From: Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols
Date: 21 September 2018 at 14:20:16 GMT+1
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>


Hi Stephen,

The "non-starter" remark refers to commercial ISPs who tend to be risk
adverse.  CEO's tend not to like 25 million dollar fines or at the
extreme, life in an orange suit in prison.  QUIC, and to some extent,
TLS1.3, are loaded DMCA time bombs for ISPs.  Within legal communities,
there is considerable treatment of the concerns, and some significant
middlebox vendors have advised blocking while offering the capabilities
as part of their service packages.  It'll take but one high profile
action against an ISP allowing customers using QUIC or TLS1.3 to
illicitly distributing copyright protected works, to ramp up the
blocking market and drive down traffic metrics.

(2) Perhaps I’m missing the point, but I don’t follow the logic here. Let’s consider two scenarios: one in which the ISP allows subscribers to establish encrypted sessions to websites, and one in whcih it does not.

- if the ISP allows subscribers to establish encrypted sessions to websites, how is the ISP to know that copyright material is being transmitted? If the ISP *cannot* know by inspecting the traffic, how can they be held liable for it? (This is why it’s relevant that Cox weren’t fined for not knowing; they were fined because they did nothing when notified by the copyright holder.) Surely, allowing encrypted sessions between subscribers and websites provides the ISP with plausible deniability, not greater liability.

- if the ISP prevents subscribers from establishing encrypted sessions to websites (and can therefore inspect the contents of subscribers’ traffic), how is it to know that copyright material is being shared illegally? (When an online retailer offers to “auto-rip†a CD I’ve just bought, how is the ISP to judge whether that transmission of copyright material is legal or not?).  

Even if we assume these issues can be dealt with, we’re left with the implication that, just in order to allow ISPs to check for copyright material, there must be no such thing as end to end encryption - and that seems like a very odd position to take. It’s also one which I think is vulnerable to a reductio ad absurdam: if QUIC is the “guilty party†here, and must be banned for facilitating the unlawful distribution of copyright material, why stop there? Where in the OSI stack is there a layer that doesn’t facilitate the unlawful distribution of copyright material? 


It is easy to roll out these capabilities when you don't bear the risk. 
Thusfar, the plaintiffs in these litigations have not moved up the
"foodchain" and gone after standards bodies.  Fortunately, ISOC
purchased considerable liability insurance for IETF parties approving
standards.  Presumably, the new IETF LLC will take similar steps to
mitigate the risk.

—tony

(3) Is this genuinely your risk assessment? By implication, the people who come up with the manufacturing standards for firearms and ammunition ought to be quaking in their boots at the prospect of an avalanche of lawsuits for manslaughter.

Yrs.,
Robin



On 21-Sep-18 7:51 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
Tony,

On 21/09/18 12:33, Tony Rutkowski wrote:
It is here where
some of the new encryption protocols - especially QUIC - essentially
become non-starters for most ISPs. 
I don't get what you mean by "non-starter" there?
IIUC correctly measurements (e.g. [1] was the first
search result I found just now) seem to indicate
that QUIC is indeed a starter...

S.

[1]
https://blog.apnic.net/2018/05/15/how-much-of-the-internet-is-using-quic/





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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------AA5BA1EC2B9D3C25D5329B6F" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 16:37:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AA5BA1EC2B9D3C25D5329B6F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 21/09/2018 04:03, Ted Lemon wrote: > ISTM such a poll would most likely be harmful. If you want data, use a > methodology that will produce data that answers the question. > Otherwise the only thing that the data can do is make us more > ignorant.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, suppose there isn't anybody at an IS= OC > chapter who has a problem with this terminology.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Do we conc= lude that > there is no problem?=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's a term that is differently proble= matic in > different countries, and ISOC is an international organization, with, > I suspect, more chapters outside of the country where the particular > terminology that started this conversation is problematic than in it.=C2= =A0 > =C2=A0So if we get a few yes answers, but a lot of no answers, does tha= t > mean that it's a very small problem?=C2=A0 =C2=A0The answer is that we = don't > know.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Studies like this result in us knowing less, not more= =2E The suggestion that studies and consultations with under-represented groups could result in a loss of knowledge seems harmful, even obscurist.= A. > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins > > wrote: > > I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'representative' > sample group - as many have pointed out. BUT > > 1) It is 'a' sample group (which is what I called it in the first > place) > 2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative > 3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative rather > than 'accurate) > 4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed by > adding other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?) > > Mark P. > > On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melinda Shore > > wrote: > > > On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com wrot= e: > > Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA > does not > > have an ISOC chapter. > > We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks from the very large > indigenous community up here to have some views on this that might > be worth listening to. > > Melinda > > --=20 > Melinda Shore > melinda.shore@nomountain.net > > Software longa, hardware brevis > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 https://netblocks.org @atoker @netblocks --------------AA5BA1EC2B9D3C25D5329B6F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 21/09/2018 04:03, Ted Lemon wrote:

ISTM such a poll would most likely be harmful. If you want data, use a methodology that will produce data that answers the question. Otherwise the only thing that the data can do is make us more ignorant.   For example, suppose there isn't anybody at an ISOC chapter who has a problem with this terminology.   Do we conclude that there is no problem?   It's a term that is differently problematic in different countries, and ISOC is an international organization, with, I suspect, more chapters outside of the country where the particular terminology that started this conversation is problematic than in it.   So if we get a few yes answers, but a lot of no answers, does that mean that it's a very small problem?   The answer is that we don't know.   Studies like this result in us knowing less, not more.

The suggestion that studies and consultations with under-represented groups could result in a loss of knowledge seems harmful, even obscurist.

A.




On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins <marknoumea=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'representative' sample group - as many have pointed out. BUT

1) It is 'a' sample group (which is what I called it in the first place)
2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative
3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative rather than 'accurate)
4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed by adding other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?)

Mark P.

On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:


On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
> Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not
> have an ISOC chapter.

We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks from the very large
indigenous community up here to have some views on this that might
be worth listening to.

Melinda

--
Melinda Shore
melinda.shore@nomountain.net

Software longa, hardware brevis


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

-- 
https://netblocks.org
@atoker @netblocks
--------------AA5BA1EC2B9D3C25D5329B6F-- From nobody Fri Sep 21 10:36:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8AE1292AD for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:36:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rr-8xb-gdxFG for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls4.std.com [192.74.137.144]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE4E21277CC for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8LHZfto026528; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 13:35:43 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8LHZaeT019058; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 13:35:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23461.11240.455727.88380@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 13:35:36 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Nalini J Elkins Cc: Vittorio Bertola , "bzs\@theworld.com" , Hrpc In-Reply-To: <492639251.214281.1537522120552@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1675397439.184108.1537518666153@mail.yahoo.com> <110214603.2591.1537520770665@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <492639251.214281.1537522120552@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:36:09 -0000 On September 21, 2018 at 09:28 nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com (Nalini J Elkins) wrote: > > Of course, now we need a cute acronym for this group... 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Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:52:53 +0000 From: Robin Wilton To: Tony Rutkowski CC: "hrpc@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols Thread-Index: AQHUUcRFrkmBgzKvzEqQwJXl1SuTGKT67nMAgAAV2IA= Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:52:53 +0000 Message-ID: <63E91A43-46AC-4A35-AD6E-A0F7DECCE11D@isoc.org> References: <441c7a5a-de99-9f84-1d60-e2731dbd70e9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <441c7a5a-de99-9f84-1d60-e2731dbd70e9@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=wilton@isoc.org; x-originating-ip: [89.238.154.185] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BL0PR06MB4611; 6:BsvzGSU6b4Ind3T7fjsBz4sAIGUyEsnMQKEQ7CD5LXZgv01SMAsqDsXeXsvWEYQWbAxn+fSVwEXehAoZqHe6zr7ex2v+lXmK6EGvQIG0IFSf3XNScIWr8n/lwtipe8ObOL+r3YT8c+1nBhCY1ZPI4RRXBmJB8IcEVsbvnIZcTM0jJFAwsvZuOkE5KpZ5Cy0R/mTQgnJPgTHDdyN/8F3jPEQnW2eK7dQEbAi3jpc+e0tBn5BDcGrByDl6gG2wFMtdKoI4pWG7h3a37spBKIjGHL8I1kAajkqAy2/UxjTPn5B/9ahVQFNLL1xydY/Dwn2tmLZCxa7zwICEfChWjgiK/KjQ+PhPyn/YDgf+VZ0zIrVnGI4gTcexcBbxDQurqk29EPC9Jg/scNOhk7hyKYZJjhVcKGhCCF/pRmCK/4AHXU6oo/W+84L6T8kKcnRZAuqYYj1miydluahXP/KySxjXmg==; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BL0PR06MB4611; H:BL0PR06MB4772.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: isoc.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: mebK0tDKmtKvvjQ+9T5pPKXk/ZOzk5ex3mqR4cbcr7oe/LUgvIE7g0CTkttQGIRgf3k+nPZRNOa4lE7nqcY8R4dnwu3VpbFGgPhTCntwKRC6mSJy/AtBifuCfGPd5NQb/CPfLjFNhkFZSt9BXQ1uk0OVTQXiIsPPK90nai5Z62RiFJabq7Bevh95ATYjxDFh72K3zq7PP+Ie0fCPN+yNweDvXilIxMkX/vHYf6tX9PH1RhvJ5067vTsFqC0QSagkPhOi+QPOZy+MrScUjdYPJJJnUv0vUMcbOul/vKeUbmnKE6T2yhZ4yD3KDLQB/k+tAxiaAeXw9SXpQApq4oS9YMhgUyEMF2Yrwqcf/1Ur/Xg= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_964A3136-501F-475E-A9B0-8C6B5C7239E4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e6e68908-dc49-44d7-5d97-08d61feb0e3e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Sep 2018 17:52:53.3903 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4611 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:53:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_964A3136-501F-475E-A9B0-8C6B5C7239E4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_43516469-EFC7-402C-800C-ECC2051E06B5" --Apple-Mail=_43516469-EFC7-402C-800C-ECC2051E06B5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 21 Sep 2018, at 17:34, Tony Rutkowski > wrote: >=20 Thanks tony - brief pre-weekend coments inline below... > Hi Robin, >=20 > (1) The challenge here is that there have been multiple court = decisions at both trial and appellate levels. The matter is further = complicated by the DMCA itself - which provides a cause of action as = well as a safe harbor defense, treatment of evidence, and basis for = penalties. 4th Circuit decision earlier this year is a 37 page = complicated treatment of all these variables. It involves considerably = more than just failing to implements the ISP's own policies. See at = http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/161972.P.pdf = I was basing my = response on Cox, since that was the one you cited... > (2) The courts seem to reject the plausible deniability argument. = Indeed, it arguably suggests unlawful activity might be occurring, and = analysis of the traffic flows and end point analysis might suggest that = the DMCA proscribed activity in particular is occurring. There has been = considerable discussion of the topic in legal and public policy blogs = and articles over the past year - particularly as to the effects of the = termination of NetNeutrality. >=20 I am not convinced that the presence of session-level or end-to-end = encryption =E2=80=9Carguably suggests unlawful activity might be = occurring=E2=80=9D. I think it arguably suggests either that (i) people = are taking prudent steps to protect the confidentiality of their online = activities - the overwhelming majority of which are not unlawful, or = (ii) ISPs and other service providers are exercising due diligence to = ensure that their subscribers=E2=80=99 information can be protected = against malicious third parties. I think we also need to bear in mind = that privacy is recognised as a human right, whereas copyright is mostly = a civil law entitlement=E2=80=A6 if those two are to be balanced against = one another, I know where I would want the emphasis to be. Otherwise we = end up requiring people to live in glass houses just in case they are = inclined to do something naughty. > (3) It is not only my risk assessment, but also that of most standards = body governing officials. Indeed, the concerns go beyond just = standards activities and described as Directors and Officers Liability = Insurance. In the case of ISOC and the IETF, it was a decision of its = Board circa 1994 as it assumed greater responsibilities for the IETF. >=20 I defer to your historical knowledge - but remain sceptical about the = risk: you say =E2=80=9Cplaintiffs have not yet gone up the food chain to = the standards developers=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 but surely, if that were a = viable approach, it would already have been attempted in other domains, = particularly where life and limb are put at risk by use of the resulting = products. All the best, Robin --Apple-Mail=_43516469-EFC7-402C-800C-ECC2051E06B5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On 21 Sep 2018, at 17:34, Tony Rutkowski = <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com> wrote:



Thanks tony - brief = pre-weekend coments inline below...

Hi Robin,

(1) The challenge = here is that there have been multiple court decisions at both trial and = appellate levels.  The matter is further complicated by the DMCA = itself - which provides a cause of action as well as a safe harbor = defense, treatment of evidence, and basis for penalties.  4th = Circuit decision earlier this year is a 37 page complicated treatment of = all these variables.  It involves considerably more than just = failing to implements the ISP's own policies.  See at http://www.ca4.= uscourts.gov/opinions/161972.P.pdf

I was = basing my response on Cox, since that was the one you cited...

(2) The courts seem to = reject the plausible deniability argument.  Indeed, it arguably = suggests unlawful activity might be occurring, and analysis of the = traffic flows and end point analysis might suggest that the DMCA = proscribed activity in particular is occurring.  There has been = considerable discussion of the topic in legal and public policy blogs = and articles over the past year - particularly as to the effects of the = termination of NetNeutrality.

I am not = convinced that the presence of session-level or end-to-end encryption = =E2=80=9Carguably suggests unlawful activity might be occurring=E2=80=9D. = I think it arguably suggests either that (i) people are taking prudent = steps to protect the confidentiality of their online activities - the = overwhelming majority of which are not unlawful, or (ii) ISPs and other = service providers are exercising due diligence to ensure that their = subscribers=E2=80=99 information can be protected against malicious = third parties. I think we also need to bear in mind that privacy is = recognised as a human right, whereas copyright is mostly a civil law = entitlement=E2=80=A6 if those two are to be balanced against one = another, I know where I would want the emphasis to be. Otherwise we end = up requiring people to live in glass houses just in case they are = inclined to do something naughty.

(3) It is not only my risk assessment, but also = that of most standards body governing officials.   Indeed, the = concerns go beyond just standards activities and described as Directors = and Officers Liability Insurance.  In the case of ISOC and the = IETF, it was a decision of its Board circa 1994 as it assumed greater = responsibilities for the IETF.

I= defer to your historical knowledge - but remain sceptical about the = risk: you say =E2=80=9Cplaintiffs have not yet gone up the food chain to = the standards developers=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 but surely, if that were a = viable approach, it would already have been attempted in other domains, = particularly where life and limb are put at risk by use of the resulting = products.

All the = best,
Robin
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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l49-v6sm5226515qta.45.2018.09.21.11.12.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:12:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Robin Wilton Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <441c7a5a-de99-9f84-1d60-e2731dbd70e9@gmail.com> <63E91A43-46AC-4A35-AD6E-A0F7DECCE11D@isoc.org> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <958b9f82-c64a-06f5-7fce-5ce6dd5c2b1b@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:12:35 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63E91A43-46AC-4A35-AD6E-A0F7DECCE11D@isoc.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7D4B871B5AC6FE9BF6B52829" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 18:12:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7D4B871B5AC6FE9BF6B52829 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robin, Well articulated, but on one key point, contraire, monseigneur. :-) See draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00, human right CESCR15.=C2=A0 It is also backed up by two major treaty instruments, and dedicated international organizations that are UN specialized agencies.=C2=A0 In France in particular, the treatment is particularly well expressed as /droit d'auteur /where is is regarded as a moral right/./ /--t / On 21-Sep-18 1:52 PM, Robin Wilton wrote: > bear in mind that privacy is recognised as a human right, whereas > copyright is mostly a civil law entitlement=E2=80=A6 if those two are t= o be > balanced against one another, I know=20 --------------7D4B871B5AC6FE9BF6B52829 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Robin,

Well articulated, but on one key point, contraire, monseigneur. :-)

See draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00, human right CESCR15.  It is also backed up by two major treaty instruments, and dedicated international organizations that are UN specialized agencies.  In France in particular, the treatment is particularly well expressed as droit d'auteur where is is regarded as a moral right.

--t


On 21-Sep-18 1:52 PM, Robin Wilton wrote:
bear in mind that privacy is recognised as a human right, whereas copyright is mostly a civil law entitlement… if those two are to be balanced against one another, I know

--------------7D4B871B5AC6FE9BF6B52829-- From nobody Fri Sep 21 12:08:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119E9130E4C for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:08:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QPoMeqv75gtg for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it1-x135.google.com (mail-it1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C93B212426A for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it1-x135.google.com with SMTP id e14-v6so3239005itf.1 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:08:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8ztTPXkoVxe2mJ4NkAn3l5oLXjH6x22d1ryJMiZ1fEI=; b=TgxRNpW51SoHgUb1/7Ox5EL5+SY+R/HXbJzwQjc3/cfOEdyQs1QisiTDgWxm9V7GmQ ZkvyC3Oe/jQTAYgz9U/EEcFstdWYr1FSyxNRYrlsnuXf5agot1bpSgjhXuisf6fbS7DM mEZv4oTCV++qvrU0KgSHeg6pc/wkzid/dMo6NH0bfa0elngLTOZKTG70ED/vDTXr8Nxc NIwB1FLc9iE8zlnBGD96WrBle4mPg3MY2FAE1PThflZG42zZcmc0HZpPA9A19V2EZD+3 uKLSu0j1dqrqAAiKekDD+l/r1rQM9beXf978ZvWqOWinz0U6HBqqX/h43Zo8W80/TJxo iIFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8ztTPXkoVxe2mJ4NkAn3l5oLXjH6x22d1ryJMiZ1fEI=; b=SnTsdOwcu11JQV2/PdFY0dmSi6Lx0kQ0CkmpwTr7r6mtnvcsC3PlbfemXPgND6QaJH ejJ+BqUu1XyIFwtd6Eh0tZ0IcazrCY5COZqoZYmZIx5AI2mXKruSSwKbU0n30jsRFePB 6tUEajLQY/HxVyqZEqdYEaMIiRxulYL1TbeFC0Rl8b1KuVV2xLMtt+93oX/jXXEij9aP tESxZNCAJlYsdsdy1/k3BApAZ5SA4QCVuTpBskZHGeyE1sSflVevmOUqKJ07IcvrGVAy TUBfGWkOB1nQO3lf2rkrBx9Os6K7jQ861oKRZOXZKm+eqerPWmY3xIQ8YKA6o46JQ87A v84g== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BFAUsQKFleIw7FuCXpjlUT3o6N71mpBZitfciGNruKI+kF6CiV pmzx6tm6TIilOMJuj3ZFRyMweEgu1CHiUkoPeZgmYfWbx/M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdaOwoOBTt3jq6OM1h1AWK1DPP060r3FovqnHTyF9NHo1gwGuhl8JL4qD1y795UBSWi5nr89SjAslFshaWS2aX0= X-Received: by 2002:a24:4c8d:: with SMTP id a135-v6mr7367912itb.110.1537556909982; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:08:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <14a52d33-1d26-32b4-d728-2e3aa9c3f2cd@cisco.com> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> <45632038.185213.1537421073005@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.55502.270454.915475@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3a4c7a9a-812b-b2cf-6cbc-75e8d095b2bf@nomountain.net> <248779215.660195.1537481487101@mail.yahoo.com> <4de52096-4d7f-9924-f201-5cc899240d78@netblocks.org> In-Reply-To: <4de52096-4d7f-9924-f201-5cc899240d78@netblocks.org> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:08:18 -0400 Message-ID: To: Alp Toker Cc: Hrpc , marknoumea=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000711f000576665dc8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 19:08:34 -0000 --000000000000711f000576665dc8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agre, but that=E2=80=99s not what we were talking about. On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:37 PM Alp Toker wrote: > On 21/09/2018 04:03, Ted Lemon wrote: > > ISTM such a poll would most likely be harmful. If you want data, use a > methodology that will produce data that answers the question. Otherwise t= he > only thing that the data can do is make us more ignorant. For example, > suppose there isn't anybody at an ISOC chapter who has a problem with thi= s > terminology. Do we conclude that there is no problem? It's a term tha= t > is differently problematic in different countries, and ISOC is an > international organization, with, I suspect, more chapters outside of the > country where the particular terminology that started this conversation i= s > problematic than in it. So if we get a few yes answers, but a lot of no > answers, does that mean that it's a very small problem? The answer is > that we don't know. Studies like this result in us knowing less, not mo= re. > > > The suggestion that studies and consultations with under-represented > groups could result in a loss of knowledge seems harmful, even obscurist. > > > A. > > > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins 40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'representative' sampl= e >> group - as many have pointed out. BUT >> >> 1) It is 'a' sample group (which is what I called it in the first place) >> 2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative >> 3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative rather than >> 'accurate) >> 4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed by addin= g >> other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?) >> >> Mark P. >> >> On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melinda Shore < >> melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote: >> >> >> On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com wrote: >> > Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not >> > have an ISOC chapter. >> >> We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks from the very large >> indigenous community up here to have some views on this that might >> be worth listening to. >> >> Melinda >> >> -- >> Melinda Shore >> melinda.shore@nomountain.net >> >> Software longa, hardware brevis >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing listhrpc@irtf.orghttps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > -- https://netblocks.org > @atoker @netblocks > > --000000000000711f000576665dc8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agre, but that=E2=80=99s not what we were talking = about.=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:37 PM Alp Toker <alp@netblocks.org> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

On 21/09/2018 04:03, Ted Lemon wrote:

=20
ISTM such a poll would most likely be harmful. If you want data, use a methodology that will produce data that answers the question. Otherwise the only thing that the data can do is make us more ignorant.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, = suppose there isn't anybody at an ISOC chapter who has a problem with this terminology.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Do we conclude that there is= no problem?=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's a term that is differently proble= matic in different countries, and ISOC is an international organization, with, I suspect, more chapters outside of the country where the particular terminology that started this conversation is problematic than in it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0So if we ge= t a few yes answers, but a lot of no answers, does that mean that it's a very small problem?=C2=A0 =C2=A0The answer is that w= e don't know.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Studies like this result in us knowing less, = not more.

The suggestion that studies and consultations with under-represented groups could result in a loss of knowledge seems harmful, even obscurist.


A.




On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins <marknoumea=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'representative' sample group - as many ha= ve pointed out. BUT

1) It is 'a' sample group (which is what I call= ed it in the first place)
2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative
3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative rather than 'accurate)
4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed by adding other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?)

Mark P.

On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:


On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
> Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not
> have an ISOC chapter.

We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks= from the very large
indigenous community up here to have some views on this that might
be worth listening to.

Melinda

--
Melinda Shore
melinda.shore@nomountain.net

Software longa, hardware brevis


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This is for various reasons, one of the main ones being that corporate copy= right holders (the main litigants) do not have 'human rights' Mark P. On Saturday, September 22, 2018, 5:12:48 AM GMT+11, Tony Rutkowski wrote: =20 =20 =20 Hi Robin, =20 =20 Well articulated, but on one key point, contraire, monseigneur. :-) =20 =20 See draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00, human right CESCR15.=C2=A0 It is also ba= cked up by two major treaty instruments, and dedicated international organi= zations that are UN specialized agencies.=C2=A0 In France in particular, th= e treatment is particularly well expressed as droit d'auteur where is is re= garded as a moral right. =20 --t =20 =20 On 21-Sep-18 1:52 PM, Robin Wilton wrote: =20 bear in mind that privacy is recognised as a human right, whereas copyright= is mostly a civil law entitlement=E2=80=A6 if those two are to be balanced= against one another, I know=20 =20 _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_563965_1010551446.1537562517243 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tony

Copyright &/or Droit d'auteur are NOT hu= man rights - this has been clearly stated by the Special Rapporteur & i= ts Committee.

This is for various reasons, one of the main ones bein= g that corporate copyright holders (the main litigants) do not have 'human = rights'

Mark P.

=20
=20
On Saturday, September 22, 2018, 5:12:48 AM GMT+11, Ton= y Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com> wrote:


Hi Robin,

Well articulated, but on one key point, contraire, monseigneur. :-)

See draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00, human right CESCR15.  It is also backed up by two major treaty instruments, and dedicated international organizations that are UN specialized agencies.  I= n France in particular, the treatment is particularly well expressed as droit d'auteur where is is regarded as a moral right.

--t


On 21-Sep-18 1:52 PM, Robin= Wilton wrote:

bear in mind that privacy is recognised as a human right, whereas copyright is mostly a civil law entitlement=E2=80=A6 if those two are= to be balanced against one another, I know

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[70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i15-v6sm22179248qta.37.2018.09.21.14.19.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:19:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Perkins , Robin Wilton Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <441c7a5a-de99-9f84-1d60-e2731dbd70e9@gmail.com> <63E91A43-46AC-4A35-AD6E-A0F7DECCE11D@isoc.org> <958b9f82-c64a-06f5-7fce-5ce6dd5c2b1b@gmail.com> <1579754945.563966.1537562517245@mail.yahoo.com> From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX Message-ID: <2fb27160-b267-816b-8711-ef5c6db76bbb@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:19:41 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1579754945.563966.1537562517245@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EDE8815DEAEB0F89E34800CF" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 21:19:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EDE8815DEAEB0F89E34800CF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark, It is well established in most legal systems that copyright protection and droit d=E2=80=99auteur are not per se human rights, but tools which p= rotect the human rights of authors and publishers.=C2=A0 The enjoyment of human rights fortunately are not dependent on "who the main litigants are."=C2=A0= Corporations like**BMG Rights Management GmbH usually represent the authors in managing and protecting their rights. The specific human right is CESCR15, Art. 15 in the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which provides "the right of everyone...to enjoy...the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author."=C2=A0 See https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/ProfessionalInterest/cescr.pdf 169 Nation States have agreed that it is a human right.=C2=A0 Is there so= me suggestion here that hrpc is going to attempt to decide what is a human right and who gets to enjoy them? --t On 21-Sep-18 4:41 PM, Mark Perkins wrote: > Tony > > Copyright &/or Droit d'auteur are NOT human rights - this has been > clearly stated by the Special Rapporteur & its Committee. > > This is for various reasons, one of the main ones being that corporate > copyright holders (the main litigants) do not have 'human rights' > > Mark P. > > On Saturday, September 22, 2018, 5:12:48 AM GMT+11, Tony Rutkowski > wrote: > > > Hi Robin, > > Well articulated, but on one key point, contraire, monseigneur. :-) > > See draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00, human right CESCR15.=C2=A0 It is als= o > backed up by two major treaty instruments, and dedicated international > organizations that are UN specialized agencies.=C2=A0 In France in > particular, the treatment is particularly well expressed as /droit > d'auteur /where is is regarded as a moral right/./ > > /--t > / > > > On 21-Sep-18 1:52 PM, Robin Wilton wrote: > >> bear in mind that privacy is recognised as a human right, whereas >> copyright is mostly a civil law entitlement=E2=80=A6 if those two are = to be >> balanced against one another, I know=20 > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --------------EDE8815DEAEB0F89E34800CF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Mark,

It is well established in most legal systems that copyright protection and droit d’auteur are not per se human rights, but tools which protect the human rights of authors and publishers.  The enjoyment of human rights fortunately are not dependent on "who the main litigants are."  Corporations like BMG Rights Management GmbH usually represent the authors in managing and protecting their rights.

The specific human right is CESCR15, Art. 15 in the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which provides "the right of everyone...to enjoy...the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author."  See https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/ProfessionalInterest/cescr.pdf

169 Nation States have agreed that it is a human right.  Is there some suggestion here that hrpc is going to attempt to decide what is a human right and who gets to enjoy them?

--t

On 21-Sep-18 4:41 PM, Mark Perkins wrote:
Tony

Copyright &/or Droit d'auteur are NOT human rights - this has been clearly stated by the Special Rapporteur & its Committee.

This is for various reasons, one of the main ones being that corporate copyright holders (the main litigants) do not have 'human rights'

Mark P.

On Saturday, September 22, 2018, 5:12:48 AM GMT+11, Tony Rutkowski <rutkowski.tony@gmail.com> wrote:


Hi Robin,

Well articulated, but on one key point, contraire, monseigneur. :-)

See draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00, human right CESCR15.  It is also backed up by two major treaty instruments, and dedicated international organizations that are UN specialized agencies.  In France in particular, the treatment is particularly well expressed as droit d'auteur where is is regarded as a moral right.

--t


On 21-Sep-18 1:52 PM, Robin Wilton wrote:

bear in mind that privacy is recognised as a human right, whereas copyright is mostly a civil law entitlement… if those two are to be balanced against one another, I know

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1AADCD00542651BF9FC0176E" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 22:06:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1AADCD00542651BF9FC0176E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The only concrete criticism you've presented of the proposal to poll, is "what if nobody has a problem with the terminology?" ISOC is a progressive community, so indeed, it is just as you say: a negative result would be a strong indicator that this is a non-problem. I suspect the outcome will be more nuanced in practice. We might learn a thing or two about the people who read and work with the engineering outputs of IETF. It might even advise the HRPC mission as a whole. It's also worth noting, those of us with a human rights background will be approaching this in a human rights context, with slavery as a priority issue[1] in the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, Africa, Asia and some parts of Eastern Europe[2]. We've seen cases where teams of unpaid engineers, rounded up alongside their partners and children, working in chattel with their passports taken away as direct implementers and consumers of IETF specifications - so harm caused by non-functional elements of any specification text is entirely plausible where those two conditions exist concurrently. Most countries identified as high-risk for slavery and human trafficking are well-represented by at least one, if not multiple ISOC chapters. I know frustration or discomfort to communities that have a historic connection with these issues has also been brought up, but would caution that those don't strictly fall within the remit of international human rights frameworks. If a strong case exists for the former, the latter will be brought along so this shouldn't be a problem. [1] https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=3D14698= &LangID=3DE [2] https://diplomatie-humanitaire.org/en/ab-gallagher-at-combatting-slavery-= is-a-priority/ A. On 21/09/2018 22:08, Ted Lemon wrote: > I agre, but that=E2=80=99s not what we were talking about.=C2=A0 > > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:37 PM Alp Toker > wrote: > > On 21/09/2018 04:03, Ted Lemon wrote: > >> ISTM such a poll would most likely be harmful. If you want data, >> use a methodology that will produce data that answers the >> question. Otherwise the only thing that the data can do is make >> us more ignorant.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, suppose there isn't any= body at >> an ISOC chapter who has a problem with this terminology.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Do we >> conclude that there is no problem?=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's a term that is= >> differently problematic in different countries, and ISOC is an >> international organization, with, I suspect, more chapters >> outside of the country where the particular terminology that >> started this conversation is problematic than in it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0S= o if we >> get a few yes answers, but a lot of no answers, does that mean >> that it's a very small problem?=C2=A0 =C2=A0The answer is that we = don't >> know.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Studies like this result in us knowing less, not= more. > > The suggestion that studies and consultations with > under-represented groups could result in a loss of knowledge seems > harmful, even obscurist. > > > A. > > > >> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins >> > > wrote: >> >> I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a >> 'representative' sample group - as many have pointed out. BUT >> >> 1) It is 'a' sample group (which is what I called it in the >> first place) >> 2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative >> 3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative >> rather than 'accurate) >> 4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly >> addressed by adding other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, >> etc. anyone ?) >> >> Mark P. >> >> On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melinda >> Shore > > wrote: >> >> >> On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com >> wrote: >> > Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, >> MA does not >> > have an ISOC chapter. >> >> We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks from the very la= rge >> indigenous community up here to have some views on this that >> might >> be worth listening to. >> >> Melinda >> >> --=20 >> Melinda Shore >> melinda.shore@nomountain.net >> >> >> Software longa, hardware brevis >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > --=20 > https://netblocks.org > @atoker @netblocks > --=20 https://netblocks.org @atoker @netblocks --------------1AADCD00542651BF9FC0176E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

The only concrete criticism you've presented of the proposal to poll, is "what if nobody has a problem with the terminology?"

ISOC is a progressive community, so indeed, it is just as you say: a negative result would be a strong indicator that this is a non-problem.

I suspect the outcome will be more nuanced in practice. We might learn a thing or two about the people who read and work with the engineering outputs of IETF. It might even advise the HRPC mission as a whole.

It's also worth noting, those of us with a human rights background will be approaching this in a human rights context, with slavery as a priority issue[1] in the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, Africa, Asia and some parts of Eastern Europe[2].

We've seen cases where teams of unpaid engineers, rounded up alongside their partners and children, working in chattel with their passports taken away as direct implementers and consumers of IETF specifications - so harm caused by non-functional elements of any specification text is entirely plausible where those two conditions exist concurrently.

Most countries identified as high-risk for slavery and human trafficking are well-represented by at least one, if not multiple ISOC chapters. I know frustration or discomfort to communities that have a historic connection with these issues has also been brought up, but would caution that those don't strictly fall within the remit of international human rights frameworks. If a strong case exists for the former, the latter will be brought along so this shouldn't be a problem.

[1] https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=14698&LangID=E

[2] https://diplomatie-humanitaire.org/en/ab-gallagher-at-combatting-slavery-is-a-priority/

A.


On 21/09/2018 22:08, Ted Lemon wrote:
I agre, but that’s not what we were talking about. 

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:37 PM Alp Toker <alp@netblocks.org> wrote:

On 21/09/2018 04:03, Ted Lemon wrote:

ISTM such a poll would most likely be harmful. If you want data, use a methodology that will produce data that answers the question. Otherwise the only thing that the data can do is make us more ignorant.   For example, suppose there isn't anybody at an ISOC chapter who has a problem with this terminology.   Do we conclude that there is no problem?   It's a term that is differently problematic in different countries, and ISOC is an international organization, with, I suspect, more chapters outside of the country where the particular terminology that started this conversation is problematic than in it.   So if we get a few yes answers, but a lot of no answers, does that mean that it's a very small problem?   The answer is that we don't know.   Studies like this result in us knowing less, not more.

The suggestion that studies and consultations with under-represented groups could result in a loss of knowledge seems harmful, even obscurist.


A.




On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins <marknoumea=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'representative' sample group - as many have pointed out. BUT

1) It is 'a' sample group (which is what I called it in the first place)
2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative
3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative rather than 'accurate)
4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed by adding other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?)

Mark P.

On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:


On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
> Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not
> have an ISOC chapter.

We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks from the very large
indigenous community up here to have some views on this that might
be worth listening to.

Melinda

--
Melinda Shore
melinda.shore@nomountain.net

Software longa, hardware brevis


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--------------1AADCD00542651BF9FC0176E-- From nobody Fri Sep 21 15:07:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CD8130E2D for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:07:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KTX6gkDny6Qn for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it1-x131.google.com (mail-it1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65B69120072 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it1-x131.google.com with SMTP id e14-v6so3818357itf.1 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:07:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FlzBXHepIx6NhAh45tQ7No8rb3fFuVdrSldZYCbAuqA=; b=Hc+1BqM0T0KjALTTzk9VHo3FmkYgY72jHcc/9uql2yXrnlB19fmOmAvSQLuqS39ymn KvGqwzxnulcBd3aXQ4CU/xV+QKCm8I3skRnY1EhyLhPGBDpdWziVAKUzI64pDG5JNfi7 3dNgwdykpSvK6XT7JzRJvWwgTi4JCf92x/5QqMJkPd6w+SMt1fp+O84c82aV+aSIbpEn hUGCuSWG5cXrT2WCWORhaaSF3qBVFxdLJccdgCkizi2E0WieNCTt7eq9vcpa/+AsLdEs XCGGllxm9Jo+91UXfLrdsm3oJ9+AA9D/EWFP53ENl/QSnlvQamaNu/cWzAIobA0vnzJW X37A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FlzBXHepIx6NhAh45tQ7No8rb3fFuVdrSldZYCbAuqA=; b=QTw56ncKujbsqtJakwFS5dWr0UoGiX+GoCT30qBLH8/gP0TSL9jNYEifPY9/808pq1 UUwmNGGoGY/d6FD/duBAoWVkudDex8G6nPtRkppLigpyL6TkLW1cmvyJ/4kaJEILdVEn oeV8yW5P1PV8wQD9wM0OSn3qVQahoIdSeuE0OQAUE+iTYza6mQ4kA2aljYtPlqfXKSTd Tu5EgUDhgsTvOsIbv8MFvYOM1yFJfg4qdw2FPSlD+ZeZ4QyHTcTZu28ZULZIYInlPWrF PbGR7i0ouKuw8LmefOEQXQa0MARLtxM7Fu3rfzsALI/6vw0fHZ5EJ0xxWEVqr24Gm8lF y1Kw== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51C3cdwDtqpO/GhoZsd0pV3hOneta+GP5L6w0wxKOzrWhVttJm/i u10xqfgHUnyFNjZLxDbQ5e4EWxeYUI4wjDAVi+hFiA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdbZKgvAb7s48FZ40WskWfXlFBPGYOfCyQGGYmnCNUXrsDIB+d0CPx14ZKjRs5EkMDEDdHGlwC3r0Q/+e5odkS0= X-Received: by 2002:a02:1e94:: with SMTP id 20-v6mr9804031jat.34.1537567622452; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:07:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> <45632038.185213.1537421073005@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.55502.270454.915475@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3a4c7a9a-812b-b2cf-6cbc-75e8d095b2bf@nomountain.net> <248779215.660195.1537481487101@mail.yahoo.com> <4de52096-4d7f-9924-f201-5cc899240d78@netblocks.org> <5e294389-e864-3a56-161a-e8f911a82b66@netblocks.org> In-Reply-To: <5e294389-e864-3a56-161a-e8f911a82b66@netblocks.org> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 18:06:51 -0400 Message-ID: To: Alp Toker Cc: Hrpc , marknoumea=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f469f4057668dbee" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 22:07:06 -0000 --000000000000f469f4057668dbee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The criticism is that it=E2=80=99s not a representative sample. On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:06 PM Alp Toker wrote: > The only concrete criticism you've presented of the proposal to poll, is > "what if nobody has a problem with the terminology?" > > ISOC is a progressive community, so indeed, it is just as you say: a > negative result would be a strong indicator that this is a non-problem. > > I suspect the outcome will be more nuanced in practice. We might learn a > thing or two about the people who read and work with the engineering > outputs of IETF. It might even advise the HRPC mission as a whole. > > It's also worth noting, those of us with a human rights background will b= e > approaching this in a human rights context, with slavery as a priority > issue[1] in the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, Africa, Asia and so= me > parts of Eastern Europe[2]. > > We've seen cases where teams of unpaid engineers, rounded up alongside > their partners and children, working in chattel with their passports take= n > away as direct implementers and consumers of IETF specifications - so har= m > caused by non-functional elements of any specification text is entirely > plausible where those two conditions exist concurrently. > > Most countries identified as high-risk for slavery and human trafficking > are well-represented by at least one, if not multiple ISOC chapters. I kn= ow > frustration or discomfort to communities that have a historic connection > with these issues has also been brought up, but would caution that those > don't strictly fall within the remit of international human rights > frameworks. If a strong case exists for the former, the latter will be > brought along so this shouldn't be a problem. > > [1] > https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=3D14698= &LangID=3DE > > [2] > https://diplomatie-humanitaire.org/en/ab-gallagher-at-combatting-slavery-= is-a-priority/ > > A. > > On 21/09/2018 22:08, Ted Lemon wrote: > > I agre, but that=E2=80=99s not what we were talking about. > > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:37 PM Alp Toker wrote: > >> On 21/09/2018 04:03, Ted Lemon wrote: >> >> ISTM such a poll would most likely be harmful. If you want data, use a >> methodology that will produce data that answers the question. Otherwise = the >> only thing that the data can do is make us more ignorant. For example, >> suppose there isn't anybody at an ISOC chapter who has a problem with th= is >> terminology. Do we conclude that there is no problem? It's a term th= at >> is differently problematic in different countries, and ISOC is an >> international organization, with, I suspect, more chapters outside of th= e >> country where the particular terminology that started this conversation = is >> problematic than in it. So if we get a few yes answers, but a lot of n= o >> answers, does that mean that it's a very small problem? The answer is >> that we don't know. Studies like this result in us knowing less, not m= ore. >> >> >> The suggestion that studies and consultations with under-represented >> groups could result in a loss of knowledge seems harmful, even obscurist= . >> >> >> A. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins > 40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >>> I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'representative' >>> sample group - as many have pointed out. BUT >>> >>> 1) It is 'a' sample group (which is what I called it in the first place= ) >>> 2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative >>> 3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative rather than >>> 'accurate) >>> 4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed by >>> adding other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?) >>> >>> Mark P. >>> >>> On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melinda Shore < >>> melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com wrote: >>> > Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not >>> > have an ISOC chapter. >>> >>> We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks from the very large >>> indigenous community up here to have some views on this that might >>> be worth listening to. >>> >>> Melinda >>> >>> -- >>> Melinda Shore >>> melinda.shore@nomountain.net >>> >>> Software longa, hardware brevis >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing listhrpc@irtf.orghttps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> >> -- https://netblocks.org >> @atoker @netblocks >> >> > -- https://netblocks.org > @atoker @netblocks > > --000000000000f469f4057668dbee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The criticism is that it=E2=80=99s not a representat= ive sample.=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:06 PM Alp Toker <alp@netblocks.org> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

The only concrete criticism you've presented of the proposal to poll, is "what if nobody has a problem with the terminology?&quo= t;

ISOC is a progressive community, so indeed, it is just as you say: a negative result would be a strong indicator that this is a non-problem.

I suspect the outcome will be more nuanced in practice. We might learn a thing or two about the people who read and work with the engineering outputs of IETF. It might even advise the HRPC mission as a whole.

It's also worth noting, those of us with a human rights background will be approaching this in a human rights context, with slavery as a priority issue[1] in the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, Africa, Asia and some parts of Eastern Europe[2].

We've seen cases where teams of unpaid engineers, rounded up alongside their partners and children, working in chattel with their passports taken away as direct implementers and consumers of IETF specifications - so harm caused by non-functional elements of any specification text is entirely plausible where those two conditions exist concurrently.

Most countries identified as high-risk for slavery and human trafficking are well-represented by at least one, if not multiple ISOC chapters. I know frustration or discomfort to communities that have a historic connection with these issues has also been brought up, but would caution that those don't strictly fall within the remit of international human rights frameworks. If a strong case exists for the former, the latter will be brought along so this shouldn't be a problem.

[1] https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNe= ws.aspx?NewsID=3D14698&LangID=3DE

[2] https://diplomatie-humanitaire.org/en/ab-gallagher-at-= combatting-slavery-is-a-priority/

A.


On 21/09/2018 22:08= , Ted Lemon wrote:
=20
I agre, but that=E2=80=99s not what we were talki= ng about.=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:37 PM Alp Toker <<= a href=3D"mailto:alp@netblocks.org" target=3D"_blank">alp@netblocks.org= > wrote:

On 21/09/2018 04:03, Ted Lemon wrote:

ISTM such a poll would most likely be harmful. If you want data, use a methodology that will produce data that answers the question. Otherwise the only thing that the data can do is make us more ignorant.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, suppo= se there isn't anybody at an ISOC chapter who has a problem with this terminology.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Do we conc= lude that there is no problem?=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's a term= that is differently problematic in different countries, and ISOC is an international organization, with, I suspect, more chapters outside of the country where the particular terminology that started this conversation is problematic than in it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0S= o if we get a few yes answers, but a lot of no answers, does that mean that it's a very small problem?=C2= =A0 =C2=A0The answer is that we don't know.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Studies like this result in us knowing less, not more.

The suggestion that studies and consultations with under-represented groups could result in a loss of knowledge seems harmful, even obscurist.


A.




On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins <marknoumea=3D40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'representative' sampl= e group - as many have pointed out. BUT

1) It is 'a' sample group (which is w= hat I called it in the first place)
2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative
3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative rather than 'accurate)
4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed by adding other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?)

Mark P.

On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.= net> wrote:


On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.c= om wrote:
> Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not
> have an ISOC chapter.

We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect = that folks from the very large
indigenous community up here to have some views on this that might
be worth listening to.

Melinda

--
Melinda Shore
melinda.shore@nomountain.net

Software longa, hardware brevis


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--=20
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@atoker @netblocks
--000000000000f469f4057668dbee-- From nobody Fri Sep 21 15:22:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A247B130E4A for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KTb9JgW1fyIx for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nuanti.com (nuanti.com [207.192.69.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CA53130E44 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nuanti.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BAB2280E6; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 23:22:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from nuanti.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nuanti.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yV90u-uDaUwA; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 23:22:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from shine-11072.local (unknown [95.5.141.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: alp) by nuanti.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3880A280C3; Fri, 21 Sep 2018 23:21:58 +0100 (BST) To: Ted Lemon Cc: Hrpc , marknoumea=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> <45632038.185213.1537421073005@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.55502.270454.915475@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3a4c7a9a-812b-b2cf-6cbc-75e8d095b2bf@nomountain.net> <248779215.660195.1537481487101@mail.yahoo.com> <4de52096-4d7f-9924-f201-5cc899240d78@netblocks.org> <5e294389-e864-3a56-161a-e8f911a82b66@netblocks.org> From: Alp Toker Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=alp@netblocks.org; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E0185A7AD56F48622594E283" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 22:22:09 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E0185A7AD56F48622594E283 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 22/09/2018 01:06, Ted Lemon wrote: > The criticism is that it’s not a representative sample. The proposal offers a way to reach out and engage engineering communities that are in daily contact with victims, as well as those who may have an indirect or historic connection with the issue whose voices would be worth hearing out. Did you have a better suggestion? > > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:06 PM Alp Toker > wrote: > > The only concrete criticism you've presented of the proposal to > poll, is "what if nobody has a problem with the terminology?" > > ISOC is a progressive community, so indeed, it is just as you say: > a negative result would be a strong indicator that this is a > non-problem. > > I suspect the outcome will be more nuanced in practice. We might > learn a thing or two about the people who read and work with the > engineering outputs of IETF. It might even advise the HRPC mission > as a whole. > > It's also worth noting, those of us with a human rights background > will be approaching this in a human rights context, with slavery > as a priority issue[1] in the Middle East, the Indian > subcontinent, Africa, Asia and some parts of Eastern Europe[2]. > > We've seen cases where teams of unpaid engineers, rounded up > alongside their partners and children, working in chattel with > their passports taken away as direct implementers and consumers of > IETF specifications - so harm caused by non-functional elements of > any specification text is entirely plausible where those two > conditions exist concurrently. > > Most countries identified as high-risk for slavery and human > trafficking are well-represented by at least one, if not multiple > ISOC chapters. I know frustration or discomfort to communities > that have a historic connection with these issues has also been > brought up, but would caution that those don't strictly fall > within the remit of international human rights frameworks. If a > strong case exists for the former, the latter will be brought > along so this shouldn't be a problem. > > [1] > https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=14698&LangID=E > > [2] > https://diplomatie-humanitaire.org/en/ab-gallagher-at-combatting-slavery-is-a-priority/ > > A. > > > On 21/09/2018 22:08, Ted Lemon wrote: >> I agre, but that’s not what we were talking about.  >> >> On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:37 PM Alp Toker > > wrote: >> >> On 21/09/2018 04:03, Ted Lemon wrote: >> >>> ISTM such a poll would most likely be harmful. If you want >>> data, use a methodology that will produce data that answers >>> the question. Otherwise the only thing that the data can do >>> is make us more ignorant.   For example, suppose there isn't >>> anybody at an ISOC chapter who has a problem with this >>> terminology.   Do we conclude that there is no problem?  >>>  It's a term that is differently problematic in different >>> countries, and ISOC is an international organization, with, >>> I suspect, more chapters outside of the country where the >>> particular terminology that started this conversation is >>> problematic than in it.   So if we get a few yes answers, >>> but a lot of no answers, does that mean that it's a very >>> small problem?   The answer is that we don't know.   Studies >>> like this result in us knowing less, not more. >> >> The suggestion that studies and consultations with >> under-represented groups could result in a loss of knowledge >> seems harmful, even obscurist. >> >> >> A. >> >> >> >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a >>> 'representative' sample group - as many have pointed >>> out. BUT >>> >>> 1) It is 'a' sample group (which is what I called it in >>> the first place) >>> 2) Any sample group I can think of will not be >>> representative >>> 3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & >>> qualative rather than 'accurate) >>> 4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly >>> addressed by adding other sample groups (ideas for >>> Alaska, etc. anyone ?) >>> >>> Mark P. >>> >>> On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, >>> Melinda Shore >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com >>> wrote: >>> > Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge >>> Boston, MA does not >>> > have an ISOC chapter. >>> >>> We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks from the >>> very large >>> indigenous community up here to have some views on this >>> that might >>> be worth listening to. >>> >>> Melinda >>> >>> -- >>> Melinda Shore >>> melinda.shore@nomountain.net >>> >>> >>> Software longa, hardware brevis >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> >> -- >> https://netblocks.org >> @atoker @netblocks >> > > -- > https://netblocks.org > @atoker @netblocks > -- https://netblocks.org @atoker @netblocks --------------E0185A7AD56F48622594E283 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 22/09/2018 01:06, Ted Lemon wrote:

The criticism is that it’s not a representative sample.

The proposal offers a way to reach out and engage engineering communities that are in daily contact with victims, as well as those who may have an indirect or historic connection with the issue whose voices would be worth hearing out.

Did you have a better suggestion?



On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:06 PM Alp Toker <alp@netblocks.org> wrote:

The only concrete criticism you've presented of the proposal to poll, is "what if nobody has a problem with the terminology?"

ISOC is a progressive community, so indeed, it is just as you say: a negative result would be a strong indicator that this is a non-problem.

I suspect the outcome will be more nuanced in practice. We might learn a thing or two about the people who read and work with the engineering outputs of IETF. It might even advise the HRPC mission as a whole.

It's also worth noting, those of us with a human rights background will be approaching this in a human rights context, with slavery as a priority issue[1] in the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, Africa, Asia and some parts of Eastern Europe[2].

We've seen cases where teams of unpaid engineers, rounded up alongside their partners and children, working in chattel with their passports taken away as direct implementers and consumers of IETF specifications - so harm caused by non-functional elements of any specification text is entirely plausible where those two conditions exist concurrently.

Most countries identified as high-risk for slavery and human trafficking are well-represented by at least one, if not multiple ISOC chapters. I know frustration or discomfort to communities that have a historic connection with these issues has also been brought up, but would caution that those don't strictly fall within the remit of international human rights frameworks. If a strong case exists for the former, the latter will be brought along so this shouldn't be a problem.

[1] https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=14698&LangID=E

[2] https://diplomatie-humanitaire.org/en/ab-gallagher-at-combatting-slavery-is-a-priority/

A.


On 21/09/2018 22:08, Ted Lemon wrote:
I agre, but that’s not what we were talking about. 

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:37 PM Alp Toker <alp@netblocks.org> wrote:

On 21/09/2018 04:03, Ted Lemon wrote:

ISTM such a poll would most likely be harmful. If you want data, use a methodology that will produce data that answers the question. Otherwise the only thing that the data can do is make us more ignorant.   For example, suppose there isn't anybody at an ISOC chapter who has a problem with this terminology.   Do we conclude that there is no problem?   It's a term that is differently problematic in different countries, and ISOC is an international organization, with, I suspect, more chapters outside of the country where the particular terminology that started this conversation is problematic than in it.   So if we get a few yes answers, but a lot of no answers, does that mean that it's a very small problem?   The answer is that we don't know.   Studies like this result in us knowing less, not more.

The suggestion that studies and consultations with under-represented groups could result in a loss of knowledge seems harmful, even obscurist.


A.




On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:11 PM Mark Perkins <marknoumea=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
I totally agree that ISOC chapters would not be a 'representative' sample group - as many have pointed out. BUT

1) It is 'a' sample group (which is what I called it in the first place)
2) Any sample group I can think of will not be representative
3) Such a survey (or poll) will be indicative & qualative rather than 'accurate)
4) Lacunae in any chosen sample group could be partly addressed by adding other sample groups (ideas for Alaska, etc. anyone ?)

Mark P.

On Friday, September 21, 2018, 4:42:37 AM GMT+11, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:


On 9/20/18 9:28 AM, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
> Point of Information: To the best of my knowledge Boston, MA does not
> have an ISOC chapter.

We don't in Alaska, and I'd expect that folks from the very large
indigenous community up here to have some views on this that might
be worth listening to.

Melinda

--
Melinda Shore
melinda.shore@nomountain.net

Software longa, hardware brevis


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https://netblocks.org
@atoker @netblocks
--------------E0185A7AD56F48622594E283-- From nobody Sat Sep 22 03:38:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A538128D0C for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 03:38:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qfXdd6EM9Ksm for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 03:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic302-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic302-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.186.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0F04127AC2 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 03:38:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537612710; bh=3UCrtlRSuIChQQCKgV5o41r7rX1cu9WI1F/dk9vLPV0=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=FRnYTuGwpKS8slbXfCBqEHgBwjUVbeqteoViiaF0f7DJw6mzQ94cak80qVOmf9mUkGCLNvty/eIXf2x+ISGOpMHlB981I2r+yPdvWo37UJNIjdtvzoraIX3gc6B59OtXHS+kaGQTV12DFwHpjQoGqILXDgWtNmSRy5uPoTkiyefsglVeVs6RGy6bYlLjWz5ZEmLPLgSuB/Fpj0rCLJV4IRSCCXt+T15r4h2fYFs2rgi/md7RU8QIMycekqzN1xLbUjtvEbB1UOCQVOf2+jJgVXQwOBlhMDWSDxMDiCHxR/x0lOkizVVm7MU4VMZ3EsPDhZhfzBlGoPBFfuNFFOSa8w== X-YMail-OSG: KlubJzgVM1kzD6Ovngb0e7U6hSoeCml1UdLvLUeU_BkVOGqS00XMD3cjt_jqX.Q YzqZlpf_xHlSs3cXSXc1KWW2XjkfimRChOUrGJE0Sk7ueas1xRQ.5nhK_E30YeMcd6bkXarptJ7S uTM18auA0av9sx8xh2MD.HxgwM19KiWyDZ8.OjfQpnosYZnB.U10S9z9Wluj6.x.D.DeDgetKOp1 cQ1GezFLF1l61TQLkw29Vng8H4zSCFktOFx4c_Ru9fuaFmcL97bguryt9SID03Am.D1xonn9El_v su2pR08Bfl6BMuMBi9hsKsvHdLgEEn2p7cEApm3MlN030ztfgcVOqS98uhMEXR2Yf80TH20ULZHT qCc17flhEoDv1i6ycN6ijWNG5xHYYqaTi.JA_87kwfwq5JKCf5g..7328LurULHvId7mQFbkrez1 4mksqcDW3GCDKLiZEAPUmfMl5n4IUPrGXGmx_4IbM6lelwZqWsQqWXyrqELgD7z0N4wDl45Ekz5r WtKCxunF86PZ.U87iazOX1tJZ3MwPg7SMmC1SZlU9034xHWbs0XUrNpVCJz47lI5IiAob24DQTwG antfvDEIebJAYqscMceYXn0G4IRe1LQjKXE0l1zNvjEV7nh64wld5rwW6En5mfKEQKICnoQoN325 g3h5NrKTnVG3vx0QlU0DzWPFVGNL10.Fsxi8VN_s7mjJDFRb12STWvzhMJBMcBcvLta2utRrZyIg jGvAUjfM3o20YLbAnIIo2CdkY52TFcxH41mgoWZyQypy5wLmLWn3dk5i0aH_eZU9h_qD7_OC.6BX iVK5zwjFndZVs4_OINSOxYmzjFbWPyD2zLlJPXo4Zp6ttqGus.tedhbcKw2McEpd6tfeSSvSINU9 FRhPmpM90Xwlpm3ucivTZ6VLrB5PNk7VzCxzRSdCenUjlVBsicYzoSMhSKE53trODtLZNjGAtDiC jSWGMNsgSSUKpny5WxiBuQIzOqlFNFrR2BamJgAKd0zeVrYZKmy..n4Uo_Bcm7U6dXwDSnmrXL6_ 2yoSl4xITzIw- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:38:30 +0000 Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:38:27 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: "bzs@theworld.com" Cc: Vittorio Bertola , Hrpc Message-ID: <1685089947.708889.1537612707293@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <23461.11240.455727.88380@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1675397439.184108.1537518666153@mail.yahoo.com> <110214603.2591.1537520770665@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <492639251.214281.1537522120552@mail.yahoo.com> <23461.11240.455727.88380@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12487 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:38:32 -0000 On September 21, 2018 at 09:28 nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com (Nalini J Elkins) wrote: >> >> Of course, now we need a cute acronym for this group... > Tag Adornment Group (TAG)? Very interesting! How about Tagging Content (TaCo)? I will now start looking about for someone (I suppose in IESG) to assist in creating new non-WG email list. If anyone capable of authorizing new email list is listening & has interest, please contact me. Otherwise, I will be reaching out to people myself. If people would prefer to keep this discussion on HRPC email list, that is fine also. Please indicate your thoughts. I think the next things to do are: 1. Set up a meeting time / description for bar bof in Bangkok. Probably on that Friday as I believe that was the intent of the extra day. 2. Create a Use Cases draft 3. Combine thoughts on possible charter Please let me know if anyone has comments. Thanks, Nalini From nobody Sat Sep 22 03:39:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C894C128D0C for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 03:39:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FjMi6dtfpKAB for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 03:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic307-16.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-16.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63A96127AC2 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 03:39:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537612784; bh=3UCrtlRSuIChQQCKgV5o41r7rX1cu9WI1F/dk9vLPV0=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=MfpoqgHbI4Sn1fAukasrCCmu9ag+Vv7B0/y2inl9/GdGc+9ISqKmMQLXQKd8ITNqQiogzLMsjxusndczBUzGinUMTYR4go2UGAU2aI+H4arkZ9g5hi5e/QH/J8fh33DWLrF7TWCnxIc64ujm7xW/QC316LYWIjrWOr4mteAL6+P+nUYagkp9OdK+r/ODODTkqaem035Q8p8UfViZoi105h2vWpqnlzQhwjDtf44v/MZQA8D4jlX3TFAOYUNvaALD5mY3/6kMbCcdoyLb+vp0FZtqLWUJX6AtDW/qeIgza2tGOGCxfvWVt5cb67YvV32di9OaEk+iX1mliH1K1UIs+Q== X-YMail-OSG: KlubJzgVM1kzD6Ovngb0e7U6hSoeCml1UdLvLUeU_BkVOGqS00XMD3cjt_jqX.Q YzqZlpf_xHlSs3cXSXc1KWW2XjkfimRChOUrGJE0Sk7ueas1xRQ.5nhK_E30YeMcd6bkXarptJ7S uTM18auA0av9sx8xh2MD.HxgwM19KiWyDZ8.OjfQpnosYZnB.U10S9z9Wluj6.x.D.DeDgetKOp1 cQ1GezFLF1l61TQLkw29Vng8H4zSCFktOFx4c_Ru9fuaFmcL97bguryt9SID03Am.D1xonn9El_v su2pR08Bfl6BMuMBi9hsKsvHdLgEEn2p7cEApm3MlN030ztfgcVOqS98uhMEXR2Yf80TH20ULZHT qCc17flhEoDv1i6ycN6ijWNG5xHYYqaTi.JA_87kwfwq5JKCf5g..7328LurULHvId7mQFbkrez1 4mksqcDW3GCDKLiZEAPUmfMl5n4IUPrGXGmx_4IbM6lelwZqWsQqWXyrqELgD7z0N4wDl45Ekz5r WtKCxunF86PZ.U87iazOX1tJZ3MwPg7SMmC1SZlU9034xHWbs0XUrNpVCJz47lI5IiAob24DQTwG antfvDEIebJAYqscMceYXn0G4IRe1LQjKXE0l1zNvjEV7nh64wld5rwW6En5mfKEQKICnoQoN325 g3h5NrKTnVG3vx0QlU0DzWPFVGNL10.Fsxi8VN_s7mjJDFRb12STWvzhMJBMcBcvLta2utRrZyIg jGvAUjfM3o20YLbAnIIo2CdkY52TFcxH41mgoWZyQypy5wLmLWn3dk5i0aH_eZU9h_qD7_OC.6BX iVK5zwjFndZVs4_OINSOxYmzjFbWPyD2zLlJPXo4Zp6ttqGus.tedhbcKw2McEpd6tfeSSvSINU9 FRhPmpM90Xwlpm3ucivTZ6VLrB5PNk7VzCxzRSdCenUjlVBsicYzoSMhSKE53trODtLZNjGAtDiC jSWGMNsgSSUKpny5WxiBuQIzOqlFNFrR2BamJgAKd0zeVrYZKmy..n4Uo_Bcm7U6dXwDSnmrXL6_ 2yoSl4xITzIw- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:39:44 +0000 Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:38:27 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: "bzs@theworld.com" Cc: Vittorio Bertola , Hrpc Message-ID: <1685089947.708889.1537612707293@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <23461.11240.455727.88380@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1675397439.184108.1537518666153@mail.yahoo.com> <110214603.2591.1537520770665@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <492639251.214281.1537522120552@mail.yahoo.com> <23461.11240.455727.88380@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12487 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:39:48 -0000 On September 21, 2018 at 09:28 nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com (Nalini J Elkins) wrote: >> >> Of course, now we need a cute acronym for this group... > Tag Adornment Group (TAG)? Very interesting! How about Tagging Content (TaCo)? I will now start looking about for someone (I suppose in IESG) to assist in creating new non-WG email list. If anyone capable of authorizing new email list is listening & has interest, please contact me. Otherwise, I will be reaching out to people myself. If people would prefer to keep this discussion on HRPC email list, that is fine also. Please indicate your thoughts. I think the next things to do are: 1. Set up a meeting time / description for bar bof in Bangkok. Probably on that Friday as I believe that was the intent of the extra day. 2. Create a Use Cases draft 3. Combine thoughts on possible charter Please let me know if anyone has comments. Thanks, Nalini From nobody Sat Sep 22 03:40:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C589128D0C for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 03:40:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OIQl0VFoZ6DF for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 03:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic307-16.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-16.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 459D6127AC2 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 03:40:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537612848; bh=3UCrtlRSuIChQQCKgV5o41r7rX1cu9WI1F/dk9vLPV0=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=D9CF2qcHjAP6ZHRxoAqCgephkCRjCYeYURdWlGrJixrC9h8ymKLUqK5lJETRrCY5yI3SHxFSrZ32HgzvX/KdK1NuXEeqT4OfwuRDbjWgXulwsMpKM4wXG+yljnzNK9K6gvC+P9W/jwhjhzCWWEM6CiSeM5KgrHgVJxhxxMhM6a0gWjn0LB3Y7zvsbKmqbXUp7gWnKrsvvn2Nj8NPAl4KxU7yO6mcnARljm/Nf697WkGEWtoxf6fQKeA9hZT9YUkroy05YXQhYsXDHRE+K2iv+EFYP0isRBZonQp/FMR7A/VID9y4dSuYxbSqsWo6nYO9yPIBIDLAYai7D3eWgA8nCw== X-YMail-OSG: KlubJzgVM1kzD6Ovngb0e7U6hSoeCml1UdLvLUeU_BkVOGqS00XMD3cjt_jqX.Q YzqZlpf_xHlSs3cXSXc1KWW2XjkfimRChOUrGJE0Sk7ueas1xRQ.5nhK_E30YeMcd6bkXarptJ7S uTM18auA0av9sx8xh2MD.HxgwM19KiWyDZ8.OjfQpnosYZnB.U10S9z9Wluj6.x.D.DeDgetKOp1 cQ1GezFLF1l61TQLkw29Vng8H4zSCFktOFx4c_Ru9fuaFmcL97bguryt9SID03Am.D1xonn9El_v su2pR08Bfl6BMuMBi9hsKsvHdLgEEn2p7cEApm3MlN030ztfgcVOqS98uhMEXR2Yf80TH20ULZHT qCc17flhEoDv1i6ycN6ijWNG5xHYYqaTi.JA_87kwfwq5JKCf5g..7328LurULHvId7mQFbkrez1 4mksqcDW3GCDKLiZEAPUmfMl5n4IUPrGXGmx_4IbM6lelwZqWsQqWXyrqELgD7z0N4wDl45Ekz5r WtKCxunF86PZ.U87iazOX1tJZ3MwPg7SMmC1SZlU9034xHWbs0XUrNpVCJz47lI5IiAob24DQTwG antfvDEIebJAYqscMceYXn0G4IRe1LQjKXE0l1zNvjEV7nh64wld5rwW6En5mfKEQKICnoQoN325 g3h5NrKTnVG3vx0QlU0DzWPFVGNL10.Fsxi8VN_s7mjJDFRb12STWvzhMJBMcBcvLta2utRrZyIg jGvAUjfM3o20YLbAnIIo2CdkY52TFcxH41mgoWZyQypy5wLmLWn3dk5i0aH_eZU9h_qD7_OC.6BX iVK5zwjFndZVs4_OINSOxYmzjFbWPyD2zLlJPXo4Zp6ttqGus.tedhbcKw2McEpd6tfeSSvSINU9 FRhPmpM90Xwlpm3ucivTZ6VLrB5PNk7VzCxzRSdCenUjlVBsicYzoSMhSKE53trODtLZNjGAtDiC jSWGMNsgSSUKpny5WxiBuQIzOqlFNFrR2BamJgAKd0zeVrYZKmy..n4Uo_Bcm7U6dXwDSnmrXL6_ 2yoSl4xITzIw- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:40:48 +0000 Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:38:27 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: "bzs@theworld.com" Cc: Vittorio Bertola , Hrpc Message-ID: <1685089947.708889.1537612707293@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <23461.11240.455727.88380@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1675397439.184108.1537518666153@mail.yahoo.com> <110214603.2591.1537520770665@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <492639251.214281.1537522120552@mail.yahoo.com> <23461.11240.455727.88380@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12487 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:40:51 -0000 On September 21, 2018 at 09:28 nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com (Nalini J Elkins) wrote: >> >> Of course, now we need a cute acronym for this group... > Tag Adornment Group (TAG)? Very interesting! How about Tagging Content (TaCo)? I will now start looking about for someone (I suppose in IESG) to assist in creating new non-WG email list. If anyone capable of authorizing new email list is listening & has interest, please contact me. Otherwise, I will be reaching out to people myself. If people would prefer to keep this discussion on HRPC email list, that is fine also. Please indicate your thoughts. I think the next things to do are: 1. Set up a meeting time / description for bar bof in Bangkok. Probably on that Friday as I believe that was the intent of the extra day. 2. Create a Use Cases draft 3. Combine thoughts on possible charter Please let me know if anyone has comments. Thanks, Nalini From nobody Sat Sep 22 04:32:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FAD128D0C for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 04:32:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21YLDzbGc4tN for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 04:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic302-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic302-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.186.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9071E130DE6 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 04:32:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537615942; bh=dnQdm890Cv39DVhJcCx/XVdMerkdyDM1bl1XC7N+0FE=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:References:From:Subject; b=CN8NvU6zU9tSObNXR/0l3XMG+MGYZc4I+n+4CmcTXDvLebucbunSR8RauEaDuXstUB6HdtJhFb0hjJHH//RxtLFNsD1+RUTwSCh8ird1WUsKjyj6OvmCUUg8qsY0x+z6f+bxyfedU9IsxavZUxF8zW1KmftutvBzbf5T1J/VLY1W/yhZE8aTStjZjqwCerulDHUsU4QRDgoQ4KFAf+aa8rlYFmdj6cgLNGg09tDoFTtyT79zPN7gRQsfTbq1hYnNC4gX7ZPP8S4UhxJg9tGkdlTEE9L5Xcs4/SazUmN1d48U5lioyMedbrqkwtLQoeu/0LtsJ/TELRb8H/NBcoVYpw== X-YMail-OSG: LH6mjQwVM1lVVsKA0ihXiC1H9QYJUDp1O4JLgwAcsCidN22n0y30m8AIV34KucH 53QE9LP6LJtRqYKZ54CmNKn2UEZxMPdtY6raxDyzTj6Od.gjCix0kmDqAF7EYtFxVhgdp_f2b0.f uCIF7AD_gzqaV_QRbcFs4unRLA9rPoC_Wcv58qkJcvwr9ccaPlglS3ZIA66PmV6123q.cIyRw8We QgRatvHJ0.oCOgiPdtt.05Moqg6tIAY039D1ddv.n4p7AGL48Mmh2pc7..e.x_pBn0fAb8S364JP hhGOABTN8pAR0x.rJO3S.zB8vbok_4Aah2pfFjqJ3BrO7CP5rwJkPvasLQWR.SopqXX6XwmR9Bp5 cyhfEDRXV0v8pumAXLIflVUW026NTwrGTQ_H.pXZf0A7w1kRrGnNsjfByT9pOcblF7mG49gy2F_P OvmO.vqIBdC7X.0CVAVR1NhX5EDGLkcMGq75E97yuCwxyPAGf9H4lCUvSEyIoohzIM.8YAHbgrxG afLeiP7lU7Wnk.8mQOy7HUL_Ig4ede.IISh99549yeA9vzW3WMH6gJojbI1SetSEsHIp231fUsxo BsOMGDnrmPFRa4.vAVjG1oEYw1g_IxDtqo8oaiO8TXSSHEAHiBfkC27zeck_A_w4DvAcw1Uzl30P JsduAmCRTDMFPYuzuQq8AVb0TkexEEOMv_IEZb81UmYPB0CSnsojFQMA1.bkgz5rCQD0G03n89uU IZ5yfvOXE7LgwbqmKQWbVY7KBFioHmpwBw4EBjUFhKFWtKyexUKnNOWG8RcrdcMYQ1Ss7JgvfuG8 4s8oAkxeiGPqPUY66buthHWDG.Uzi_IeA84qa_QAL4OcbXLoEDzBMAWnnTrMo8Xc.aX15UVsz8jO BfgAmezfcwnzx.wJji7AL0e9J3TiDJYZixKO3swP1ogtpJdfA9z2Z4HadwAzrqEKL4R.lGFaGsoa .TnT2G9pZfIF5BoEFCFCMuCL9nhsjXLim8fOOuA3WwGQJTy_CbXce4rM- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:32:22 +0000 Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:32:19 +0000 (UTC) From: Reply-To: To: Message-ID: <952458027.708315.1537615939497@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <952458027.708315.1537615939497.ref@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12487 YahooMailBasic Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Good done by Social Media X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:32:27 -0000 All, I hope this is not off-topic but I think I may have talked too much about the negative sides of social media platforms. Definitely, they are also a force that heals and ties us together in a way like never before. Here is a link to an article you may remember where a father talks to his son about the importance of flowers and candles after the Paris bombing. It brought tears to my eyes when I first read it. I just was talking to my own daughter about it this weekend. https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-terror-attacks/fathers-talk-son-about-paris-terror-attack-goes-viral-n464981 I hope we, including people from the social media platforms, can all work together to solve some of the really big problems facing us. Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From nobody Sat Sep 22 04:33:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1A6130DC2 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 04:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cQvsv1hlixWX for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 04:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic307-16.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-16.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5896F128D0C for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 04:32:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1537615977; bh=dnQdm890Cv39DVhJcCx/XVdMerkdyDM1bl1XC7N+0FE=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:References:From:Subject; b=WvpGxWtiRLfD/RY6ZYHLBJY8M+XnwAQxv/gzW+VvvfIwRVdmjlTn5watzKdRWb4ZrODlMMGxWtzK/XOj0qRUWWcOaTrqOgeE8nKzh/wHVwNtWsmp+Vuh78E7dAoDv5PPooHgxwz4iHmi4F/uIeeGXLPKm6aV3RUTeJXxDf4g0xxjsmk3PYTDGQkIklYavi8LNNUFh0AL0Pej4x0qxt7PvzptSiowgMHHE4vTt/kL4PvEvxSDdel31/jYMpGtQuBao+lz52HXMla6relhVTB7pkxxm6zVEDxhIXtGKOszVobHo3wIpmvERw2ekTIfnwJVG2377j7pX5JhbdMZpMrRdQ== X-YMail-OSG: XEZuhnAVM1mtNONkJSRtehrmjpw8HwwSETk4mZWdy3eEdWx6.8df7gy5dSuUP4k TVh4LoZKfi_8NSngqBQDi3JIam5tgIKQHY6X4wjD2Ff7_pM7O.gXmzU7N.n5kz.YIUXH8h0JjIOe LS4x7xFyImtHsfsxpmYbbY0kk3QGiHwUVQLOxoL4ots34u5dt5rKhWxIdsn2ZFJzOUvFfm4OueXq 9mYWwGHBTegXST.4az1l4vDCuq3cE0ju5FksZBEY3iCPwRyZ6XyCCGM9cE3pSGguBsIfeIj4AyA. J0cbocVwsKHw.4FDgbMoCEgYVBabp96R2fjMsZEJdD95FCxeU_T.ug0iCfnXM16EWc9WqzNx7qw9 ESt8oRNuE.BCHtIL4phqy0UO60Cjg79_Sh.SeEpReqnEweXS9vFCn8rvmANkAtnioV9Ko0BUcRlF 4hVWceEMtnGDmxkysRQgVZ2elysYL_msD7A.FG0QzvlygIz46c84QB8o6dsLWTjSvZs2cDSciB9H Dcg1Vl1dYff8ByKEJjc.BKwomm8fLsBiugOaCWOhLRJnjAbgjZRXk8Wg3dY4M5x95g6tDN.vuqda SeVHx2yLpqP3Eqbzne0CZ67p6k.2B7bDRhjhaOrqv4oBRnnhthiq8kEK2PSbc7FnfC_WT159ciSc gwf.pE2hFAr5C.jAfPAmbFD_GNPgXP19aWYRljmL5OXcPSoymma97m6dBwnUDHfuRs6Fd0Vq9OsD 51WHCXXypNJ.Iser.kuFOuHiHGIpChmB9cuqXFAMIheFVJM0sMe6yXSYCy9RxnragMLUc.YEipdg 2aNXJNw6k1CqeaVjluvzyyd8SMBJbsPrCKjMTzsMEZYK0tieP.QHUcAwhGmAux2_fFk1F5geqWOw 8ZF.V14748Bnvlsbr54AFRjysz41Rljg0bMr0afqtFC7HDNslDDu1bY44vTJ56EUVWdbaUDVb4Vs alsA7ZCizZSDeE7rgobYlfXuOzYRFU3T1Mq5cCWQGkiCe9LAbPnFUbRicFA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:32:57 +0000 Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:32:54 +0000 (UTC) From: Reply-To: To: Message-ID: <730520583.722009.1537615974878@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <730520583.722009.1537615974878.ref@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12487 YahooMailBasic Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Good done by Social Media X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:33:00 -0000 All, I hope this is not off-topic but I think I may have talked too much about the negative sides of social media platforms. Definitely, they are also a force that heals and ties us together in a way like never before. Here is a link to an article you may remember where a father talks to his son about the importance of flowers and candles after the Paris bombing. It brought tears to my eyes when I first read it. I just was talking to my own daughter about it this weekend. https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-terror-attacks/fathers-talk-son-about-paris-terror-attack-goes-viral-n464981 I hope we, including people from the social media platforms, can all work together to solve some of the really big problems facing us. Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From nobody Sat Sep 22 07:32:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4B8130DFE for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 07:32:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R6y9UFu2yGIr for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 07:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A093D130DE2 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 07:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id v18-v6so318590qka.10 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 07:32:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:openpgp:autocrypt:to:cc:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=nrZvR2v7gtPq5ICkVeo0iyObuW3FyJmhh/nzIEZSCrk=; b=ARG0EOCDQoSOdZEi5fLxQmqEAf6HhYfmqaFxktGj5ARbpSUwhhuiLYuTrPrHGRX8dW WnYTX1oYeG3ZINZx2U32r5acc8LwyERHCoHs5OkoECLfA2krnBniOOhL5YLuxgKFpeqC d1vpwP2Se+mMnQrKZcuib0oK1yqVoJcTiRAxUBqy+U6zapQLthsS4l+BXlirlQM1CzH9 MqAbMTf195yV1sf0slAVXdQ3jQ6yqTFOwhssaldAXCWotvqfkY0JRR1SDGEO0B+6FIN1 kTpxfHhpvjwwSDFYN666T7WNzIIRl2LClPXRMPfFIPwO1Y08xUQ5u7ov/EAH5VGEZ9lF up6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:openpgp:autocrypt:to:cc:subject:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=nrZvR2v7gtPq5ICkVeo0iyObuW3FyJmhh/nzIEZSCrk=; b=fbVRkoidp4tXwkgUlm4WopQRK6HVBhhmB8mI7GjkySYF5rNghRMC9Vt5RTIMOrMYYr fVOND7YNank0SCiaVZ7gOcxE/sBrvF1WHmiJZ0fGUC5Dx7aSKy1HSC90n51wgW53/ah2 8U+30gY9VPwxnM04cg3qSenfl4Y/8nU1/F74xbvOxbUnJTFBgi6/BHbgrMSaZFFLot7f gwac/ghkP0oEf1T1zXbai97/qQWSlpawecJOM2p/Pku+NoYPYtXsGsoBKEkI/KnVSMW5 UeHiCfRVqjmLxr3YkPH7q5oyFBP9lNZDDrcpS2w3McLCW7mXH5Xo57/KiOuF/x0CDP95 G6jg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojONf3Lb906XFVKD51L4NALC/szHVSsdhr5LCFR1MQ4xKqQf1Kv uZsvDljMf7/ac4S8buBAp0s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV60yyOrIV5CZ1vQX/z22QzpT3Vs3XwVjyP1uX1sDa4D7NmwUEo0yAt80mtys4494UQH1E3akrw== X-Received: by 2002:a37:8903:: with SMTP id l3-v6mr1451309qkd.337.1537626736500; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 07:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.53] (pool-70-106-196-109.clppva.fios.verizon.net. [70.106.196.109]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x23-v6sm296530qkh.21.2018.09.22.07.32.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 22 Sep 2018 07:32:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Rutkowski Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=rutkowski.tony@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFolz+gBEACo+XkmnKmogov4Fccwgmn8L6mwqVQEU6dkW0Pwbw+PBnRf1RNAZk6J960Q C6Omh9NjQCANG5B9WMiXGd7WPdodD8ghuTJBJpFaB6omvix9SJ1NOiirbtA676AR035cV6y7 7wb0mZ+Boyq72UFgcjsKxpZxK+dIK9UcbkvceSrpAr7fxIaAi/2eTU6EA0+5MX2nhPdLTQHt S1FKRW56++pMUbpKkQjEvj3qMku6WUPnqKrnpaH/DP1fSwTkbIr6pkcby8V+DcY5+mnjRc7L FFp15OX9SmNWDSs0rYkhJ6tlPR1DVmzzhG05dZtI+fbxF20AJfO19U5vIQumZwshOHiLvjqn 9x1bjoiAXng9KQMDwmV5/TQhEdXddiDnPkbNv6XNAYJFevlS766xsG4QMrgzjaAbPEfpGcP7 PBRstyHHTgUbbOaWPUEiaq7eGM6MWCovv30aVpa2hM9MTmDeBvJAm9F0V3a/8uWQtRqWTUid RmfJKkI66w26k6XQcszhaVAkH5cr7/s1QF63Vnr33nxW6vG1iT3FPE+o3Wo3892oj+mORclx BK/4ZL+vF7LoWcoOCu6Id0dEhrkHLjmsnO2Pf+uU+OH68a7mMkz1gS6Fq0NEOy+4WbhiwLK4 3N/g1lZJh3f0f664JjTHlpL3pTZSnMZLlfy0Q1J0CKVCNgdXwwARAQABzSlUb255IFJ1dGtv d3NraSA8cnV0a293c2tpLnRvbnlAZ21haWwuY29tPsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCWiXP6AIbIwUJCWYB gAcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkZYsP/As/vxZTkm5MGqI8 T/F+0EJyaNlRaN94JaDeh0khRY9aKs0hio3iwT+uRC7UXXjpCdeOhjKn8wjtFYaOSGzBWRPO zxWRntmZY0g+Jxx9dkFXXCYeuMzlnQagnJ/MFjsLWZQg+/j9kBoQZiXzyEGoYYOd46OIvViZ 4HWEE+dV/23UjiYuU70AcoMPOtQ+9UIIxPISQwhZMLyZmQDEdI9OgKmrOpXeIb0Ctba3/OmW mx/PjsJJIA7s/IoOsmgVZBFQ2lQluMcM9SJrNkzPdpsAz2cp9L0XgREIdCz+1FvMmYs5NFTO ln/ATXYAxuBbTg953ZuIpjT9c2D6R6ji98h43zzp3F82v9t6SiaqkjJbUXzTVi4QpqIWmRx6 beTBUdnUVQxw+QpK8+EFp6QHC5MGFKo1FoJDWbn4FNYPQfEmuq7MgjCDUGfErU7M0wvxhZ3o /mgtfR44pk8KMKSfVY1rvzXgMDrMFu/Mv9HvBlNoyTydgV2dX4O+106Olv0fwKwdj3yqHNmS hkBdq5GeACEsEuVFQiOdbmdPmcvONJZx478yUsSRP0iTEgy5qc7RlsSNGV/12B+GHEeE4OTy LWm3s5LO40nveULeeWwZ+0Q6iTfSWLhXjbaNNdZnBt/DaM6qn9h21Px42PyE8NGQvjKXOX7+ 3JXViCzbeHkgIfTo73gozsFNBFolz+gBEAC2jf+HVxcM3AdwP88bK/XLA/K0pWmszImDT41y wSpZ7asVuawuO1Bl+byHOukTmsnOQ/PFiQ19j+HXSlIxsEDgoc9OqkMVrj0BDevKM9krwyyZ lC0TbtwH6KugmJ2eUeJnfMpuwLUVq7Icqh5qwneoBj5j2gxWeMZJ8FeT0I5lBHDhu4W3iFuj akku4fCF2gpNnXCXh8WGuTCsDXyBe+kwbUIBBQBwVaUSJAQh/ai7xnB1GZOGSqfBkyCJ7C/A ZVu13lgX747keGiNwWQAFiYuhzgSrGHex9tvRLuzkmg/xfLrYdVOubr6M3JGpIK64YeIQskC O7OCyH5u/tT3w5lNqMIufJ43lISu54Gaqwb7ddNfNLqnF/k+IghYStJo7OL9OqoA77GO15xH 52j7aMiiwPKxJAdhLArg+YAB+iD3LUfnMvWKO9gWvtmlHw3fhZ9zG+hjOUUe+QSKqPvmop48 tzuPEYC91HYNEvXN7d/p1T9Ms95qjvTdVCbV1ibsfW6NAeQjsvecvJVk1kvdCGoe5PZycF3D vJf+jyH/K832BJS4jQFob9tRjXTKEcL+E3V7IKVHJTRU4M1xo4iOQ7mT3+uNBVFMVqybY7f/ 9ipHKhCH3fAavuabAyczOznO0d54uz0J8Vdl+kWBrTdWyeipm9ai4M/vgfhcWQXELYEWPwAR AQABwsFlBBgBCAAPBQJaJc/oAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJENhM+Z2YMDfkl40P/2AndYTSm4bRas5D j6og/hJE6uFKAL6IaP6U5ZWq5PUzWxlO/D4CP6z5JZ/w75yXDGuTcVhBGgmTVFmF1zfNP+Vy d4ieMSzCxal6m7EPVkh6H6O2nwuhVZZe9qhtXN73h1j85+FzuwkEffhFlSct4eEAVJLQ6bDI vo/2OVPx1HTqvHs5+DOKz73WVLVuYsR+e1jpu/bErlsMeUop9k0S9Dm4/jeCX7IW5fH4Yfcr 6pHhp44IsGLV2T9/HrgfN/TXnBpEJDdSvLlDqgr2bjphvvSX+YLDOunp/SZMOV+sY6Qz7TTs thkJDUbVk1/ibm6XYFEL4zFkm+MC0xeKCUmSTctkPul13VKBjZa6W2iX0saGgEGFHElwCqiT fSiO8mW49ObrMVdX+cBbIP72KN+VyAyGt3IWAt/tA9TuRe4zMAm8zsVXBisE0xm0FrPdsH+N xoMAY2Qe2unFH0Vh3OYquhlCO6DVY7qcLu143QH1JmL7MiXmDnOssxxz+uVKzKIHdfU9zHpB aOeJz8TzYeIs2JaCqFVcRowbGxFlFQ3oOjuqJXyz7fk/1JjBkRg5OwfYZBS+GCCDX6T/ckUr mMfjGd8DJgBzO+OIRRSybdwTu03LcWykVN2y7Mh2FPDtYPVSR5XCrMK3vbRszVk0Dg5Eui1A /n/jNSP5qSipdY2r3FxX To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Cc: Tony Rutkowski Message-ID: <30154477-e422-b8d5-6477-b14b3c71b403@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:32:15 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] disruptive tolerance X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 14:32:20 -0000 Dear hrpc-ers, I have been informed by your chair that my postings to the group have been deemed "disruptive" and unwanted.=C2=A0 There is a certain personal irony.=C2=A0 As a one-time human rights legal activist and public officia= l in the U.S. Old South 50 years ago, that same term was repeatedly applied to myself then.=C2=A0 At the time, the consequences were somewhat more serious - like having a gun waved in your face and being threatened with death for being disruptive to the then prevailing community values.=C2=A0= Now being involved in a great many industry, academic, and governmental groups and leading multiple work items, the re-vectoring for me is welcome.=C2=A0 My original intent was to continue a life-long role as a human rights advocate and educator by creating an Internet Draft that usefully articulates the broad array of international human rights in a form that can be used for objective analysis across multiple standards bodies.=C2=A0= Hopefully, a few of you can join in that effort; and if not, there are other venues in which it can be pursued.=C2=A0 Please contact me separate= ly if you are interested in producing the next draft. As to hrpc, I would urge a greater tolerance for views different from one's own perspective and motivations on these topics by the diverse individuals willing to participate in the group.=C2=A0 Participant divers= ity should be encouraged, not branded as disruptive or trolling because you don't agree with their views or style of expression.=C2=A0 Societal triba= lism and hatred manifested through today's communication networks is a real problem that is readily exploited, and it destroys human rights of the most vulnerable peoples.=C2=A0 Effective solutions are needed.=C2=A0 Keep= up your work. best, -t From nobody Sat Sep 22 08:34:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF58A130E17 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 08:34:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bJ732ogguslc for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 08:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D8B2130DC0 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 08:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g3jvf-0007Uc-SN; Sat, 22 Sep 2018 17:34:44 +0200 Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 15:34:43 +0000 (UTC) From: Mallory Knodel To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <43756924.71353550.1537630483490.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <30154477-e422-b8d5-6477-b14b3c71b403@gmail.com> References: <30154477-e422-b8d5-6477-b14b3c71b403@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.7.11_GA_1854 (zclient/8.7.11_GA_1854) Thread-Topic: Friendly reminder Thread-Index: v+90mLw7pzVNy3/0ASM9v0ouqwOiEQ== X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: bc82d6a2e188773012c482ed32290af0 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Friendly reminder X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 15:34:49 -0000 > Participant diversity should be encouraged, not > branded as disruptive or trolling because you > don't agree with their views or style of expression. I want to assure everyone that this is absolutely not what has been communi= cated to anyone. Just a reminder to all about the purpose of the RG and it=E2=80=99s list: > The Human Rights Protocol Considerations > Research Group is chartered to research whether > *standards and protocols* can enable, strengthen or > threaten human rights, as defined in the Universal > Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) and the > International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights > (ICCPR), specifically, *but not limited to* the right to > freedom of expression and the right to freedom of > assembly. (Emphasis mine) Sincerely, -Mallory ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Rutkowski To: hrpc@irtf.org Cc: Tony Rutkowski Sent: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 14:32:15 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [hrpc] disruptive tolerance Dear hrpc-ers, I have been informed by your chair that my postings to the group have been deemed "disruptive" and unwanted.=C2=A0 There is a certain personal irony.=C2=A0 As a one-time human rights legal activist and public official = in the U.S. Old South 50 years ago, that same term was repeatedly applied to myself then.=C2=A0 At the time, the consequences were somewhat more serious - like having a gun waved in your face and being threatened with death for being disruptive to the then prevailing community values.=C2=A0 Now being involved in a great many industry, academic, and governmental groups and leading multiple work items, the re-vectoring for me is welcome.=C2=A0 My original intent was to continue a life-long role as a human rights advocate and educator by creating an Internet Draft that usefully articulates the broad array of international human rights in a form that can be used for objective analysis across multiple standards bodies.=C2=A0 Hopefully, a few of you can join in that effort; and if not, there are other venues in which it can be pursued.=C2=A0 Please contact me separately if you are interested in producing the next draft. As to hrpc, I would urge a greater tolerance for views different from one's own perspective and motivations on these topics by the diverse individuals willing to participate in the group.=C2=A0 Participant diversit= y should be encouraged, not branded as disruptive or trolling because you don't agree with their views or style of expression.=C2=A0 Societal tribali= sm and hatred manifested through today's communication networks is a real problem that is readily exploited, and it destroys human rights of the most vulnerable peoples.=C2=A0 Effective solutions are needed.=C2=A0 Keep u= p your work. best, -t _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc From nobody Sun Sep 23 14:11:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF730130E45 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:11:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z6k_GsNUfgxJ for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls6.std.com [192.74.137.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31522130DF5 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8NLAFYa022439; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 17:10:17 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8NLA8iH022473; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 17:10:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23464.304.470987.2768@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 17:10:08 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: bzs@theworld.com, Nalini J Elkins , Hrpc In-Reply-To: References: <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1562249563.7365350.1537294175702@mail.yahoo.com> <23458.60103.232354.319588@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1544602885.234435.1537440412961@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.59804.821268.528944@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <75698556.568258.1537474599210@mail.yahoo.com> <23460.21174.601902.427319@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 21:11:10 -0000 Tony, I'm looking at DOI.ORG and it's interesting, there's a lot there. If nothing else it would seem to provide a well thought out framework for identifier creation. No sense reinventing wheels. There's still a lot left to think about such as an infrastructre for tagging content and utilizing those tags plus rights management implied in that activity. It may be there but I'm wondering if organizations such as Library of Congress have bought into DOI, perhaps as an adjunct to their MARC system (by "such as" I'm thinking int'l library systems, I see some of the other endorsements.) I'll keep studying it, thanks. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Sun Sep 23 14:38:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7535F130E84 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:38:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TSggGMOexZBz for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls6.std.com [192.74.137.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86746130E80 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8NLb91L009088; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 17:37:11 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8NLb35r023581; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 17:37:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23464.1919.928332.565502@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 17:37:03 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Tony Rutkowski Cc: Mark Perkins , Robin Wilton , "hrpc\@irtf.org" In-Reply-To: <2fb27160-b267-816b-8711-ef5c6db76bbb@gmail.com> References: <441c7a5a-de99-9f84-1d60-e2731dbd70e9@gmail.com> <63E91A43-46AC-4A35-AD6E-A0F7DECCE11D@isoc.org> <958b9f82-c64a-06f5-7fce-5ce6dd5c2b1b@gmail.com> <1579754945.563966.1537562517245@mail.yahoo.com> <2fb27160-b267-816b-8711-ef5c6db76bbb@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Thoughts on Intersection of Content and Protocols X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 21:38:10 -0000 A fundamental problem in copyright and other intellectual property protection is that although they generate a huge amount of money in sum the structure is often such that there isn't all that much money per party nor good market mechanisms to protect those rights. Which is perhaps why one sees so much activity from rights owners in seeking government protections. One could argue (and I have :-)) that Microsoft's (Bill Gates et al) genius was not so much creating an operating system and some software, much of that already existed and much of it was technically much better. It was their realization that they could assert intellectual property rights and copy that software for 100x or more what that cost even taking into account their development and support costs AND that governments would spend almost bottomless amounts of their taxpayer's money defending those rights for at worst an occasional (relatively) inexpensive complaint by Microsoft. The US v Microsoft anti-trust case was basically a too little, too late recognition of this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp. We have a similar problem with content on the internet except for one thing -- no, or very little, analogous economic infrastructure to drive solutions. Hence all are left with are appeals from rights owners to governments to expend their police and enforcement powers to control content value, and for that matter other content. None of what I say is limited to IPR. So either we get a handle on creating some sort of self-motivating economic infrastructure or, as Orwell so eloquently put it: If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever. Perhaps a bit dramatic but worth a thought. Sometimes I fear there really is no less at stake. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Sun Sep 23 14:46:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBAF6130934 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ddn-ap9ZJo9c for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls4.std.com [192.74.137.144]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34E43130E84 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8NLjmFX027479; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 17:45:50 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w8NLjgYw023986; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 17:45:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <23464.2438.87349.316039@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 17:45:42 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Ted Lemon Cc: Alp Toker , Hrpc , marknoumea=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> <45632038.185213.1537421073005@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.55502.270454.915475@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3a4c7a9a-812b-b2cf-6cbc-75e8d095b2bf@nomountain.net> <248779215.660195.1537481487101@mail.yahoo.com> <4de52096-4d7f-9924-f201-5cc899240d78@netblocks.org> <5e294389-e864-3a56-161a-e8f911a82b66@netblocks.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 21:46:10 -0000 On September 21, 2018 at 18:06 mellon@fugue.com (Ted Lemon) wrote: > The criticism is that it=E2=80=99s not a representative sample.=C2=A0= Many years ago I worked in epidemiological research, specifically occupational exposures (at Harvard.) We worked with from 1,000 to 10,000 or more subjects as a normal matter, I think Mr Fit (some principles were down the hall) had over 100,000 subjects. A term which comes up is "clinical" studies. We see it all the time. What classifies something as a "clinical" study is the tiny "N", sometimes less than a dozen subjects. Consider that next time you see a phrase like "clinical studies have shown..." in medical etc advertising. The basic philosophy in the medical research community was that so long as one was fully transparent in their methodology then it was ok. And if someone read more into a study than was justfied that was unfortunate. --=20 -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheW= orld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Sun Sep 23 15:08:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3236C130EC5 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 15:08:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nQjnexKPY9wz for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 15:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it1-x136.google.com (mail-it1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F7CC130E9E for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 15:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it1-x136.google.com with SMTP id 139-v6so8199470itf.0 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 15:08:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=q1TwihlXj/AJp4rFqFFSLU3YqcmHocHr19Z1cGyxwDg=; b=jBRnAxQ9APj1f/Po5hsOcrvBqsdtY3fHzG7nhgo5mZaO5BToqMJz3qFSPATHldQqll sEiK4CHImlHnXKO7q46oDa/ZaoNQWufcuGLUXSPJhRam0T7KTr7dFJcsIhTXErOqh1Yg Zs1Nl5S6R2nbzG5+dP/V1jibpibdRvceRTcUxtEpM+3jQSo/guukptMHGZfG8YG5SnB6 pP86LUetZX2N6bMswm4BCDlSLClVBRfkkqkYjmHdF0UZpMxoQkAZVeJul3qEaxcD6tX7 XSpQzTIVGOvGnI+E2eDD1eFU4wcsK4MeHFOKZUc2FYJhlJbJ9yKq6OFGs7sLWx8jHzTJ fkwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q1TwihlXj/AJp4rFqFFSLU3YqcmHocHr19Z1cGyxwDg=; b=OCZ+6ZVVIc/5OsFcf5G1EqDgi/8bBXlbILvUBzaZZb3PmPb/vAqq/Hfi+iVLccxBDP BHiEJYBWpsLNWNvlRHhiuk/YYUeWY7h3ezjOepspE8StIk7XB3GwO5s45/wlZoFymCyf UewYgyfFqq16u1oSWUSJyERZI4Vl3VuYMF3Ca1/sj8xBESUOikIAJd2X0gaLn6QGlGoB 5Wjk3F2p6vwH6wCc65sS65bZtnKdnPlphMhWUTRo+wzLsMXXOkNTifKZb9wRiymIne8U 2TL9g6qpfUrKabJTaVK1CFafbSGa6TZN4razkzgGcvsslZiUQze8Nm51UMt0acLzLMAs kFpA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51A4DXN9UrHg3BLJioTmxssUeA3ywmvDGrvAxnaKR8oTY9HD/ce6 5wjBf2t90TWdEpsgFfLGB8lqmi2VBdTxiyhpfs1Cig== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61lLJBzc3r1ZPA1FWEx8Qv23THWwBbWiuM/7aCndXiy1Oqy3RcBeAox606Q1XEIyNDt1mrQAp+tVVksGlEGv5w= X-Received: by 2002:a24:140f:: with SMTP id 15-v6mr5981409itg.57.1537740498273; Sun, 23 Sep 2018 15:08:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0733a320-9c1a-7976-8e0f-4823a3d04763@nielstenoever.net> <4B42F20E-F8E7-41BA-AA7C-E9667EC1F3DF@gmail.com> <80B52242-5E6E-4DA1-AE81-7842C188FA22@gmail.com> <5277a88b-dbdc-ed31-7b44-72f0235014c5@cisco.com> <2f02d843-d6fd-577b-3dc5-ce59ced0c212@netblocks.org> <2026353498.7845833.1537389088062@mail.yahoo.com> <6A004978-C0C4-4CB1-BDAD-2017BAC69E1C@fugue.com> <45632038.185213.1537421073005@mail.yahoo.com> <23459.55502.270454.915475@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3a4c7a9a-812b-b2cf-6cbc-75e8d095b2bf@nomountain.net> <248779215.660195.1537481487101@mail.yahoo.com> <4de52096-4d7f-9924-f201-5cc899240d78@netblocks.org> <5e294389-e864-3a56-161a-e8f911a82b66@netblocks.org> <23464.2438.87349.316039@gargle.gargle.HOWL> In-Reply-To: <23464.2438.87349.316039@gargle.gargle.HOWL> From: Ted Lemon Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 18:08:07 -0400 Message-ID: To: bzs@theworld.com Cc: Alp Toker , Hrpc , marknoumea=40yahoo.com@dmarc.ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000281fca0576911c43" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?We_have_bigger_fish_to_fry_=28was=3A_Re=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Master/Slave=E2=80=99_Terminology_Was_Removed_from_Pyt?= =?utf-8?q?hon=29?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 22:08:21 -0000 --000000000000281fca0576911c43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, and your comment about news reports on clinical studies shows how fallacious that reasoning was! :) On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 5:46 PM wrote: > > On September 21, 2018 at 18:06 mellon@fugue.com (Ted Lemon) wrote: > > The criticism is that it=E2=80=99s not a representative sample. > > Many years ago I worked in epidemiological research, specifically > occupational exposures (at Harvard.) We worked with from 1,000 to > 10,000 or more subjects as a normal matter, I think Mr Fit (some > principles were down the hall) had over 100,000 subjects. > > A term which comes up is "clinical" studies. We see it all the time. > > What classifies something as a "clinical" study is the tiny "N", > sometimes less than a dozen subjects. > > Consider that next time you see a phrase like "clinical studies have > shown..." in medical etc advertising. > > The basic philosophy in the medical research community was that so > long as one was fully transparent in their methodology then it was ok. > > And if someone read more into a study than was justfied that was > unfortunate. > > -- > -Barry Shein > > Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | > http://www.TheWorld.com > Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD > The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* > --000000000000281fca0576911c43 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, and your comment about news reports on clinical= studies shows how fallacious that reasoning was! =C2=A0:)
=
On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 5:4= 6 PM <bzs@theworld.com> wrote= :

On September 21, 2018 at 18:06 mellon@fugue.com (Ted Lemon) wrote:
=C2=A0> The criticism is that it=E2=80=99s not a representative sample.= =C2=A0

Many years ago I worked in epidemiological research, specifically
occupational exposures (at Harvard.) We worked with from 1,000 to
10,000 or more subjects as a normal matter, I think Mr Fit (some
principles were down the hall) had over 100,000 subjects.

A term which comes up is "clinical" studies. We see it all the ti= me.

What classifies something as a "clinical" study is the tiny "= ;N",
sometimes less than a dozen subjects.

Consider that next time you see a phrase like "clinical studies have shown..." in medical etc advertising.

The basic philosophy in the medical research community was that so
long as one was fully transparent in their methodology then it was ok.

And if someone read more into a study than was justfied that was
unfortunate.

--
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | bzs@TheWorld.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|= 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989=C2=A0 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
--000000000000281fca0576911c43--