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([fe80::a89b:32d6:b967:337d%5]) with mapi id 15.01.1531.003; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 09:14:11 -0400 From: "Gould, James" To: "gurshabad@cis-india.org" , "regext@ietf.org" CC: "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "hrpc@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode Thread-Index: AQHUWxr5hyC056QopEWFVA23IQF5HA== Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 13:14:10 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.f.0.180709 x-originating-ip: [10.170.148.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <931396DE139F7E49A1E3D08DA50737E5@verisign.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: 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) id 1g7hPt-0003TO-G2; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 15:42:18 +0200 Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 15:42:17 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: "Gould, James" Cc: "gurshabad@cis-india.org" , "regext@ietf.org" , "hr-rt@irtf.org" , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qMm9M+Fa2AknHoGS" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 54a52893e10ae071b73780542c02a8d9e3f33e6f X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 5834b8cda5e59974b48b8546fa99fbcb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 13:42:24 -0000 --qMm9M+Fa2AknHoGS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi James, On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 01:14:10PM +0000, Gould, James wrote: > Thanks for the review, Gurshabad. I'll consider your feedback in the cont= ext of technical issues with the draft. The registration of domain names i= n some jurisdictions may be subject to various requirements that involve ve= rification by a party other than the registry. =20 Could you please be so kind to link to some of these legal requirements? > The draft is intended for interoperability and is independent of the veri= fication process.=20 I am a bit confused with your reasoning that the verificationcode extension= has is independent from the implementation of this extension, because the = extension exists to enable implementation, right? Why else would it exist? > The EPP extension takes no position on specific verification processes wh= ich are a "local matter" for the implementation.=20 The EPP extension does enable it, so it does have a position on it.=20 > For these reasons, I disagree with your assertion that implementation of = the proposed extension will impact domain registrants' right to freedom of = expression, right to freedom of assembly and association, and right to priv= acy. Rather the EPP extension, as the draft describes, is a proposal for a = standard framework for the common industry practice of providing proof of v= erification to meet legal and/or security requirements within a given top-l= evel domain. Again, it would be great if you could give a bit more insight in, and perha= ps some examples of, the practice of third-party verification for which thi= s interoperation is needed. Best, Niels > =20 > =E2=80=94 > =20 > JG >=20 >=20 >=20 > James Gould > Distinguished Engineer > jgould@Verisign.com >=20 > 703-948-3271 > 12061 Bluemont Way > Reston, VA 20190 >=20 > Verisign.com =20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/20/18, 5:02 PM, "regext on behalf of Gurshabad Grover" wrote: >=20 > Hi all, > =20 > Firstly, thanks to James Gould and the regext working group for > developing draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode. > =20 > As part of efforts in the Human Rights Protocol Considerations (HRPC) > group, I have reviewed the human rights considerations (using RFC 8280 > as a framework) in draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-03. Please find > the review below. Hope that some of these concerns can be addressed > moving forward. > =20 > =20 > HR Review: Verification Code Extension for the EPP > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D > =20 > An assessment of human rights considerations in > draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-03. > =20 > Introduction > ------------ > The =E2=80=98Verification Code Extension for the Extensible Provision= ing > Protocol (EPP)=E2=80=99 ([VCEPP], hereinafter also referred to as the= =E2=80=9Cdraft=E2=80=9D) > describes an extension in the EPP object mappings which supports addi= ng > a verification code provided by a third-party known as the Verificati= on > Service Provider (VSP). If the registrant=E2=80=99s data is not =E2= =80=9Cverified=E2=80=9D by > the VSP, it may be prohibited from requesting the execution of EPP > transform commands. > =20 > This is a review of the human rights considerations in the the draft. > (See [RFC 8280], =E2=80=98Research Into Human Rights Protocol Conside= rations=E2=80=99). > We believe that the draft does not make adequate considerations for > human rights: The implementation of the proposed extension will impact > domain registrants=E2=80=99 right to freedom of expression, right to = freedom of > assembly and association, and right to privacy. > =20 > Human Rights Considerations > --------------------------- > =20 > # Privacy ([RFC8280], section 6.2.2) > =20 > From [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CCould your protocol improve data minimizatio= n?=E2=80=9D and > =E2=80=9CDoes your document identify potentially sensitive data logge= d [...] > and/or for how long that data needs to be retained for technical reas= ons?=E2=80=9D > =20 > The draft leaves the precise data shared with the VSP =E2=80=9Cup to = the > policies of the locality=E2=80=9D and outside the scope of the draft.= In the > 'domain-registrant' type of verification, both the registrant contact > information and domain name are sent to the VSP. The registrant conta= ct > information is sensitive personal information, including name, addres= s, > telephone number and email address. [RFC5733] > =20 > The draft notes that, =E2=80=9Cthe data verified by the VSP MUST be s= tored by > the VSP along with the generated verification code to address any > compliance issues.=E2=80=9D The information is retained and =E2=80=9C= may be accessed at > a later time.=E2=80=9D > =20 > Registrants whose personal information will be shared in this way have > no control over these aspects, which negatively impacts their privacy. > =20 > # Content Agnosticism ([RFC8280], section 6.2.3) > =20 > From [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CDoes your protocol make decisions based on t= he payload > [...]? Does your protocol prioritize certain content or services over > others [...]?=E2=80=9D > =20 > Section 1 of the draft states that the =E2=80=9CVerification Service = Provider > (VSP) is a certified party to verify that data is in compliance with = the > policies of a locality.=E2=80=9D Therefore, the extension facilitates= the > prioritization of certain individuals based on how the VSP judges > whether the registrants=E2=80=99 data is compliant. Registrants=E2=80= =99 data which is > not in =E2=80=9Ccompliance=E2=80=9D with the local regulations will n= ot receive a > verification code from the VSP, which gives the VSP the power to > restrict individuals from registering/modifying a domain name, and > limits their right to freedom of expression. > =20 > # Censorship Resistance ([RFC8280], section 6.2.6) > =20 > From [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CCan your protocol contribute to filtering in= such a way > that it could be implemented to censor data or services? [...]=E2=80= =9D > =20 > By design, the extension facilitates filtering: the VSP will receive = the > power to =E2=80=9Cverify=E2=80=9D data on arbitrary grounds when dete= rmining whether > registrant data is in =E2=80=9Ccompliance=E2=80=9D with local regulat= ions. The draft > also identifies examples of these scenarios: the VSP will check wheth= er > =E2=80=9Cthe domain name is not prohibited=E2=80=9D, or whether the = =E2=80=9Cregistrant is a > valid individual, organization, or business in the locality.=E2=80=9D= On these > grounds, the VSP can accept or reject attempts to register domain nam= es. > Thus, the extension explicitly provides filtering and censorship > abilities to the VSP, which are inimical to the registrants=E2=80=99 = freedom of > expression. > =20 > # Open Standards ([RFC8280], section 6.2.7) > =20 > From [RFC8280], =E2=80=9CAre you aware of any patents that would prev= ent your > standard from being fully implemented [RFC6701] [RFC8179]?=E2=80=9D > =20 > There is an IPR declaration filed by Verisign Inc. for an older versi= on > of the draft mentioning the relevant [PATENT]. The declaration > facilitates mostly open development, giving minimal assertion rights > over the license for Verisign Inc. > =20 > From [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CIs your protocol fully documented in such a = way that it > could be easily implemented, improved, built upon, and/or further > developed?=E2=80=9D > =20 > Several key details that will form the complete mechanism for the > verification code are not included in the draft (as it only describes > the extension), but have been offered in the [PATENT]. This includes a > description of the grace period within which =E2=80=9Cthe requirement= set of > verification codes may be sent before the object becomes non-complian= t=E2=80=9D, > and a clear depiction of the flow of the request detailed in Fig. 1 of > the [PATENT]. > =20 > # Decentralisation ([RFC8280], section 6.2.14) > =20 > From [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CWhat is the potential for discrimination aga= inst users > of your protocol?=E2=80=9D > =20 > There is immense potential for discrimination against registrants who= se > data will be subject to =E2=80=9Cverification=E2=80=9D by the VSP. Th= e proposed > extension provides the VSP powers to discriminate against registrants > based on the information it receives, which may include names and > addresses, and which may be further compared to other =E2=80=9Clocal = data > sources=E2=80=9D [VCEEPP] to indicate legal sex, religious affiliatio= n, or > ethnicity. > =20 > From [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CCan your protocol be used to negatively impl= icate users > (e.g., incrimination, accusation)?=E2=80=9D > =20 > There is potential for negative implication: a malicious registrant m= ay > submit a request for a domain name considered legally =E2=80=9Cprohib= ited=E2=80=9D by > the locality, accompanied with someone else's personal information. > Registrant information is sent to the VSP, an entity that may be > associated with law enforcement, which creates potential misuse for > false incrimination/accusation. > =20 > # Reliability ([RFC8280], section 6.2.14) > =20 > No fallback mechanism is specified within the draft for when the VSP = is > offline or unavailable. In the event that the VSP is not available to > process the sent object, the registrants=E2=80=99 requests will not b= e performed. > =20 > Similarly, when considering how long the VSP takes to process a > particular request, Section 0057 of the [PATENT] states that a =E2=80= =9Cpending > compliance status indicator may indicate that the object is not > compliant by [...] a time, or grace period, in which the requirement = set > of verification codes may be sent before the object becomes > non-compliant.=E2=80=9D Therefore, if the VSP does not respond within= the grace > period, the object will be considered =E2=80=9Cnon-compliant=E2=80=9D= =2E The proposed > extension thus creates a problematic assumption of =E2=80=9Cnon-comp= liance=E2=80=9D, > which is at odds with the presumption of innocence. > =20 > # Confidentiality ([RFC8280], section 6.2.15) > =20 > From [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CWhat options exist for [...] implementers to= choose to > limit the information shared with each entity?=E2=80=9D > =20 > No such mechanisms are present which allow the registrants to limit t= he > information that will be accessed by the VSP. > =20 > # Integrity ([RFC8280], section 6.2.16) > =20 > From [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CDoes your protocol maintain, assure, and/or = verify the > accuracy of payload data? Does your protocol in any way allow the data > to be (intentionally or unintentionally) altered?=E2=80=9D > =20 > The XML Signature maintains authenticity and integrity of the > verification code. However, we are not sure whether the object can be > altered by the VSP before appending the verification code to the shar= ed > object. If so, it creates the potential for false implication (also s= ee > section on Decentralisation) by the VSP. > =20 > # Outcome transparency ([RFC8280], section 6.2.19) > =20 > From [RFC8280]: =E2=80=9CAre the effects [...] fully and easily compr= ehensible > [...]?=E2=80=9D > =20 > As highlighted earlier in the review, many details (some out of the > scope of the draft) may be opaque to registrants with the implementat= ion > of the proposed extension, including but not limited to, the exact da= ta > shared with the VSP. > =20 > Additionally, as the [PATENT] notes, a =E2=80=9Crejection of the veri= fication > request may be transmitted [...]=E2=80=9D by the VSP. Therefore, whil= e the > proposed extension technologically facilitates a legal mechanism, the= re > are no built-in measures that facilitate human rights related to legal > transparency, remedy, or due process. For example, the VSP has no opt= ion > to append an explanation for sending back a rejection. > =20 > Conclusion > ---------- > In summary, the proposed extension in its implementation allows the V= SP > to have enormous censorship and discriminatory power. The arbitrary a= nd > opaque mechanism to =E2=80=9Cverify=E2=80=9D compliance with local re= gulations gives > disproportionate powers to impede freedom of expression, right to > privacy, freedom of association, and the right to non-discrimination. > =20 > Some of the concerns highlighted in this review have already been > pointed out in the past in and outside the IETF. [NLLZMSG][ART-19] We > hope that the WG considers the potential adverse human rights impact > that the proposed extension creates before recommending its > standardisation. We understand that some of the concerns in the review > do not stem purely from the proposed extension, but due to the > unavoidable consequences of implementing the extension. The WG could > consider adding the details of those to the draft as well, so as to m= ake > its impact on human rights clearer. > =20 > References > ---------- > [RFC8280] ten Oever, N., Cath, C., =E2=80=9CResearch into Human Right= s Protocol > Considerations=E2=80=9D, RFC 8280, October 2017, > . > [VCEEPP] Gould, J., =E2=80=9CVerification Code Extension for the Exte= nsible > Provisioning Protocol (EPP)=E2=80=9D, draft-ietf-regext-verificationc= ode-03, > April 2018, > . > [IP-DECL] Ward, M., =E2=80=9CVerisign Inc.'s Statement about IPR rela= ted to > draft-gould-eppext-verificationcode=E2=80=9D, October 2015, > > [RFC5730] Hollenbeck, S., =E2=80=9CExtensible Provisioning Protocol (= EPP)=E2=80=9D, RFC > 5730, August 2009, > > [RFC5731] Hollenbeck, S., =E2=80=9CExtensible Provisioning Protocol (= EPP) Domain > Name Mapping=E2=80=9D, RFC 5731, August 2009, > . > [RFC5732] Hollenbeck, S., =E2=80=9CExtensible Provisioning Protocol (= EPP) Host > Mapping=E2=80=9D, RFC 5732, August 2009, > . > [RFC5733] Hollenbeck, S., =E2=80=9CExtensible Provisioning Protocol (= EPP) > Contact Mapping=E2=80=9D, RFC 5733, August 2009, > . > [PATENT] Waldron, J., et al. =E2=80=9CDomain Name Operation Verificat= ion Code > Generation and/or Verification=E2=80=9D, United States Patent Serial = No. > 14/868,972, September 2015, > . > [NLLZMSG] ten Oever, N., =E2=80=9CRe: [regext] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-01.txt=E2=80=9D, IETF Mail Archive= : regext, > April 2017,=20 > . > [ART-19] Article 19 Digital, =E2=80=9CCorporate actors must not facil= itate human > rights violations through new Chinese rules=E2=80=9D, Article 19, Dec= ember 2016, > . > =20 > Acknowledgements > ---------------- > Thanks to Paul Kurian for research inputs. Thanks to Amelia > Andersdotter, Mallory Knodel, Sunil Abraham and Swaraj Barooah for th= eir > feedback. Please note that acknowledgement here does not necessarily > imply endorsement of the contents of the review. > =20 > -- > Thank you. > Gurshabad > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > regext mailing list > regext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/regext --=20 Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --qMm9M+Fa2AknHoGS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlu0xzYACgkQDtg/OkaK yLOF7xAAnzDQAATKidNUfyqJFYcfDDUa2OLOyQdRT0R0BgGSRCGiCBoN9xZguEH9 0AFBvsaLDQxIuBZ6g/qxKqWhZIUzcBlP6ARqx5+IFky0taIff0vENPh0h1TMrxJ6 iM+t/16g+t13R5Gpjj4LemiWcb50kxecXTycNqyOSbpPt1jDRgU5a5yxEyk21q5w ch/u0hOE4HoZv+lDWLGha4bSo2cEMwHeq4O9YREbABuii1p6yuDsLewo9eAuxxYM e8m+a87TM0DiQwgOsbNlhvfToYkJhWsA20h2Zb3ng+3qEqGl0dSM06EIjOA01aBg yblvy14Bej5OWVbdazb9i7AMgcMYB70RXgwYbtHtoVE07h3E0uuALW+an+yVYMxM yceh8cgXvZx8R8YD9bEakviNVf3IrLdtJADvDpvGTox3u+aV4OWT5IaBdvinJiAx zg5eOX45385PQH4puqBYvcOskVJVguI9jEyRE07QUZp4qe9ytmoKp5DFkyUeqI9N 32KPVu0zI2g24uJMq56eNJ6ZYTeMTMDIjqql6TrjvlkYeGvAdXia+0K8S7F/VrPN A4p/4vYnyEv6BPdto2NyUlBN4NeZHl/7dcLCuTKcN2Vf/B/WfVCp6cWFNSa1Vq09 aDheB+2dtIKPTnG3C03zfTIMn6kzgZhHr5HbgJnYUui8FvFSS3c= =VEn/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qMm9M+Fa2AknHoGS-- From nobody Wed Oct 3 08:14:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C071312D3; 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Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:05:23 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1538579123; bh=BeMc0mJbNbSlsBo3ny/gsDPIHfUQuCI4U7y5Y46CztM=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=soB11vJiai4TAWfI/TlhyFbgrrPWQKqEFcJlELbM7EmHNqTfyp16CPMfmXK3aAMya SaPBgmkC/YaRFFcXFuw7sdLqRys0q82gz/zUyiT8R1rMn4duMo7zcNiBBUDQsqpHNT YWMoqCJ4ch92KT+FDzKLATm0HclN7t0BqzXaCCbbxNbhtyJ2zVzhGMl9xX+1QjFLr9 rQu0wrKP+PVWEaECILd4BXfpk/r8Qj8v9hRi9dxYx3P2ey1opKi9Dmi1p8AbKiNR1V 8yvUGrsJLgC4G+tCvudTr6nxkcAGh7XsHWp6pOY+6PPD4qcSK4BqLhdo+sye1lX4jT ZFXp7qw985LgA== Received: from null (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BA4603C034A; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:05:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:05:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Niels ten Oever , "Gould, James" Cc: hr-rt@irtf.org, hrpc@irtf.org, regext@ietf.org, gurshabad@cis-india.org Message-ID: <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13307_1762833277.1538579123702" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev17 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 15:14:09 -0000 ------=_Part_13307_1762833277.1538579123702 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 3 ottobre 2018 alle 15.42 Niels ten Oever < lists@digitaldissidents.org mailto:lists@digitaldissidents.org > ha scritto: > > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 01:14:10PM +0000, Gould, James wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The draft is intended for interoperability and is independent of the verification process. > > > > > > I am a bit confused with your reasoning that the verificationcode extension has is independent from the implementation of this extension, because the extension exists to enable implementation, right? Why else would it exist? > > > > > The EPP extension takes no position on specific verification processes which are a "local matter" for the implementation. > > > > > The EPP extension does enable it, so it does have a position on it. > This exchange strikes me because of the discussion that we have been having on content tagging on HRPC (Nalini, Barry and I are still working on it). So my question is: is any protocol that supports additional points of content control at the national level favouring censorship, and thus inherently bad and contrary to human rights? Or even, if you prefer: is all censorship inherently bad? More specifically, if the national government or policy verification authority used the proposed EPP extension to block the registration of lets-kill-all-the-jews.cctld or child-pornography-for-everyone.cctld, is it censoring the Internet, or is it just doing its job on behalf of its citizens? And in that context, shouldn't the right to free expression of the user be balanced with the right to cultural and legal sovereignty of that country's citizens, which may end up establishing laws which legitimately make some content illegal in their country? (not to mention the rights of the people that may be harmed by the circulation of certain content) All in all, and with no offense for the reviewer's laudable efforts, the assessment in the review that any local point of control is bad because it could be used to harm someone's rights is IMHO too simplistic: it could also be used to defend someone else's rights. Regards, -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_13307_1762833277.1538579123702 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 3 ottobre 2018 alle 15.42 Niels ten Oever < lists@digitaldissidents.org> ha scritto:


On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 01:14:10PM +0000, Gould, James wrote:
The draft is intended for interoperability and is independent of the verification process.

I am a bit confused with your reasoning that the verificationcode extension has is independent from the implementation of this extension, because the extension exists to enable implementation, right? Why else would it exist?

The EPP extension takes no position on specific verification processes which are a "local matter" for the implementation.
The EPP extension does enable it, so it does have a position on it.
This exchange strikes me because of the discussion that we have been having on content tagging on HRPC (Nalini, Barry and I are still working on it).

So my question is: is any protocol that supports additional points of content control at the national level favouring censorship, and thus inherently bad and contrary to human rights?

Or even, if you prefer: is all censorship inherently bad? More specifically, if the national government or policy verification authority used the proposed EPP extension to block the registration of lets-kill-all-the-jews.cctld or child-pornography-for-everyone.cctld, is it censoring the Internet, or is it just doing its job on behalf of its citizens?

And in that context, shouldn't the right to free expression of the user be balanced with the right to cultural and legal sovereignty of that country's citizens, which may end up establishing laws which legitimately make some content illegal in their country? (not to mention the rights of the people that may be harmed by the circulation of certain content)

All in all, and with no offense for the reviewer's laudable efforts, the assessment in the review that any local point of control is bad because it could be used to harm someone's rights is IMHO too simplistic: it could also be used to defend someone else's rights.

Regards,

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
------=_Part_13307_1762833277.1538579123702-- From nobody Wed Oct 3 08:40:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B031312E8 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 08:40:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=wisser.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LlSPfnVHGQNP for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 08:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x929.google.com (mail-ua1-x929.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::929]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E88961312E9 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 08:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x929.google.com with SMTP id r15-v6so2263278uao.1 for ; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 08:40:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=wisser.se; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3Ea1l1n0sAfwEvXHB6mhIWw8oRgIW8uakdwkjGG5cEo=; b=03/FbzvltXtS3tARXUXIYNFkNWuoQy+B5wwaQMnZSAI6r26gwTw7BT+AlMP9cpuOVH T3lLi+G3yFHFzT4nZ9zQmuaSQLDoV+/1FtWvPCVdU6Vw4S1/ksMe/Hi6bJAjPAfPGYIe uUTMh5dPbhMcZ1N/R+rKatJFQX+cwxK5URr4ITgzIuTULNs42Owv76JsLkhNppkiRW7s Ot13TF7Ma2cWDhcdow2P1GOHNw2xKDJV54Rhp4t95gIEXXQUBLf2fa2kpQPwq5RMPNRa KnyUNwk0bF61Jvr2k5K4Ioy6ihurRsPxH9PbUKmMd5PXMqv2HyfvvJvKjgxdBQbwe+Xz JUmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3Ea1l1n0sAfwEvXHB6mhIWw8oRgIW8uakdwkjGG5cEo=; b=f6qlPVCQ7ADM6ANFGHgbdmNWxZKsThKlgrbGIX9SW0fNdw1swh+KimTdGyrj+U7Q6k BJ+gLhqoBm8rT8uXtAx8IzooEnVcLyPcEkS9wEAIvPXBWczruYrEgIlDIrvPYiCixzLp ZzTwE3kocZ67f3d4AOULhHIVQBQFZbwh/WtKHbZjegIYFw+Vpw/e7Bs4DgVHVpDK8Igs CDiBH3uV1/XNx5XyIgYJqCOeTCcnxR3ADUIwlU7IEWGbjk0uFCcJ2zgvKIoAFvdvuvCA hnsYzGzSotV7t+O7iyrxf7UtYUa+F50a03BFiP3Th1NKjdsDbRNu1HyoUny2dB1IRBUz 41fg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojB/q/Gd24chuVmU+aTP5miHM+7LFl/ENdpE2R+OLBwFHAR/ZtV 2+uvoCLohIDFgjZibapmypDEDI9gIWacIZb/ps/Yug== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63Bemh8N4oJjLr97b3Y9VJGJBEYl4BoPT3UCZKxWq8ixLEDmB1jloEeCB0fEnvliEJ/JshNaGGB/Hxm7RqZHG8= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:5e8f:: with SMTP id y15mr817711uag.21.1538581211602; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 08:40:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Ulrich Wisser Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:39:59 +0200 Message-ID: To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Niels ten Oever , "Gould, James" , hr-rt@irtf.org, hrpc@irtf.org, regext@ietf.org, gurshabad@cis-india.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000937551057754daf1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 15:40:17 -0000 --000000000000937551057754daf1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I completely agree with Gurshabad assessment. But as others already pointed out, it is an intended consequence of the extension. In the context of domain registration, privacy cannot be expected. So my question is rather, does this extension make the situation worse? As you were asking for examples. China and Denmark require preregistration of registrants. Denmark does even require preregistration of hosts. Denmark has plans to only allow registrations with a Danish electronic id. In my assessment, a registrant cannot have any expectation of privacy. And therefore the extension does not worsen the situation for the registrant. /Ulrich Vittorio Bertola schrieb am Mi., 3. Okt. 2018 um 17:05 Uhr: > Il 3 ottobre 2018 alle 15.42 Niels ten Oever < lists@digitaldissidents.org> > ha scritto: > > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 01:14:10PM +0000, Gould, James wrote: > > The draft is intended for interoperability and is independent of the > verification process. > > > I am a bit confused with your reasoning that the verificationcode > extension has is independent from the implementation of this extension, > because the extension exists to enable implementation, right? Why else > would it exist? > > The EPP extension takes no position on specific verification processes > which are a "local matter" for the implementation. > > The EPP extension does enable it, so it does have a position on it. > > This exchange strikes me because of the discussion that we have been > having on content tagging on HRPC (Nalini, Barry and I are still working on > it). > > So my question is: is any protocol that supports additional points of > content control at the national level favouring censorship, and thus > inherently bad and contrary to human rights? > > Or even, if you prefer: is all censorship inherently bad? More > specifically, if the national government or policy verification authority > used the proposed EPP extension to block the registration of > lets-kill-all-the-jews.cctld or child-pornography-for-everyone.cctld, is it > censoring the Internet, or is it just doing its job on behalf of its > citizens? > > And in that context, shouldn't the right to free expression of the user be > balanced with the right to cultural and legal sovereignty of that country's > citizens, which may end up establishing laws which legitimately make some > content illegal in their country? (not to mention the rights of the people > that may be harmed by the circulation of certain content) > > All in all, and with no offense for the reviewer's laudable efforts, the > assessment in the review that any local point of control is bad because it > could be used to harm someone's rights is IMHO too simplistic: it could > also be used to defend someone else's rights. > > Regards, > > -- > > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy > > _______________________________________________ > regext mailing list > regext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/regext > -- Ulrich Wisser ulrich@wisser.se --000000000000937551057754daf1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I completely agree with=C2=A0Gurshabad assessment. But as others already p= ointed out, it is an intended consequence of the extension.
In the context of domain registration= , privacy cannot be expected. So my question is rather, does this extension= make the situation worse?

As you were = asking for examples. China and Denmark require preregistration of registran= ts. Denmark does even require preregistration of hosts. Denmark has plans t= o only allow registrations with a Danish electronic id.

In my assessment, a registrant cannot have any expectation= of privacy.
And therefore the ext= ension does not worsen the situation for the registrant.
<= font color=3D"#212121">
/Ulric= h


Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com= > schrieb am Mi., 3. Okt. 2018 um 17:05=C2=A0Uhr:
Il 3 ottobre 2018 alle 15.42 Niels ten Oever < lists@= digitaldissidents.org> ha scritto:


On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 01:14:10PM +0000, Gould, James wrote:
The draft is intended for interoperability and is independent of the v= erification process.

I am a bit confused with your reasoning that the verificationcode exten= sion has is independent from the implementation of this extension, because = the extension exists to enable implementation, right? Why else would it exi= st?

The EPP extension takes no position on specific verification processes= which are a "local matter" for the implementation.
The EPP extension does enable it, so it does have a position on it.
This exchange strikes me because of the discussion that we have been hav= ing on content tagging on HRPC (Nalini, Barry and I are still working on it= ).

So my question is: is any protocol that supports additional points of co= ntent control at the national level favouring censorship, and thus inherent= ly bad and contrary to human rights?

Or even, if you prefer: is all censorship inherently bad? More specifica= lly, if the national government or policy verification authority used the p= roposed EPP extension to block the registration of lets-kill-all-the-jews.c= ctld or child-pornography-for-everyone.cctld, is it censoring the Internet,= or is it just doing its job on behalf of its citizens?

And in that context, shouldn't the right to free expression of the u= ser be balanced with the right to cultural and legal sovereignty of that co= untry's citizens, which may end up establishing laws which legitimately= make some content illegal in their country? (not to mention the rights of = the people that may be harmed by the circulation of certain content)

All in all, and with no offense for the reviewer's laudable efforts,= the assessment in the review that any local point of control is bad becaus= e it could be used to harm someone's rights is IMHO too simplistic: it = could also be used to defend someone else's rights.

Regards,

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchangevit=
torio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torin=
o, Italy
=20
_______________________________________________
regext mailing list
regext@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/regext
--
Ulrich Wisser
--000000000000937551057754daf1-- From nobody Wed Oct 3 09:01:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C5B11312E8; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 09:01:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lansing.dk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TKn6dyBxx7IE; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 09:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.droso.net (sloth.droso.dk [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc2:41:216:3eff:fe4d:cf5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D65C13130E; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 09:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a01:630:0:81:1::107] (unknown [IPv6:2a01:630:0:81:1::107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.droso.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0A35540332; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 16:01:00 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lansing.dk; s=lansing.dk-20160916; t=1538582461; bh=vqVhhacGULSQWmt/4zdtKg2uB4O30aHX+6/R22oauuE=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=QakIn4kuIyM/dYm9GdgNQWsunqP4lR8x4XE+wrKJnZLbPZwhJRZtao2omN8hChcqZ G8pOBfNlV1um+pjzHyAzRUKE52IG0zn0PMEahVxMBWxBd6LYfa1QPyqWlN4tww03bZ /U5yOqBmSiot8r5WHj2yNHiSBKB0xdXyk2NPSqP/B39NnxUdEhGSK+uO4O3YZBApki emZD0JGSSpdnZDDhe7dvXnjJBrGxRxBCggSVDQ9VFdpNd4wVC9zwSqmJyzX2pBVsEo ttfHUyh2qzC0FvUkRbvkdN+Z+2r+eCbyPtNHPxJ3RtzmodVUbKGbZe7N0YDuulDDTD JPkBB3i9TxxuA== From: Erwin Lansing Message-Id: <19A942C8-8EA6-436B-A431-930EDA7CD18A@lansing.dk> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FC940CD7-751B-415F-8F2B-06455BFCF797" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 18:01:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Vittorio Bertola , Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org, hr-rt@irtf.org, "Gould, James" , regext@ietf.org, gurshabad@cis-india.org To: Ulrich Wisser References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 16:01:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FC940CD7-751B-415F-8F2B-06455BFCF797 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 3 Oct 2018, at 17.39, Ulrich Wisser wrote: >=20 > Denmark has plans to only allow registrations with a Danish electronic = id. I=E2=80=99m sorry to barge in and distract from the real discussion = here, but I cannot let such a blatant inaccuracy stand. There are no = such plans, neither have there ever been such plans. I=E2=80=99d be = happy to expand on how registrant identity verification works off-list, = but let me suffice to say, that anyone in the world can register a .dk = domain name, now and in the future. Erwin --Apple-Mail=_FC940CD7-751B-415F-8F2B-06455BFCF797 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = 3 Oct 2018, at 17.39, Ulrich Wisser <ulrich@wisser.se> = wrote:

Denmark has plans to only allow registrations with a Danish = electronic id.

I=E2=80=99m sorry to barge in and distract from the real = discussion here, but I cannot let such a blatant inaccuracy stand. There = are no such plans, neither have there ever been such plans. I=E2=80=99d = be happy to expand on how registrant identity verification works = off-list, but let me suffice to say, that anyone in the world can = register a .dk domain name, now and in the future.

Erwin

= --Apple-Mail=_FC940CD7-751B-415F-8F2B-06455BFCF797-- From nobody Wed Oct 3 10:04:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C05124C04; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 10:04:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yFgBGj5VkUvV; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 10:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDA7F124BE5; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 10:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D4F66A31A; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 18:55:48 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1538585748; bh=uDwe1p+8c6kSjhUAxtgv11qt5swMtZrcBKz6nNFNkLc=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=ckajSc1dKYGoXtp6YCX5lUJTk8kdBmPM6LQaB4OR5ZqMGjZdD46mIxnqWwsMQV2Eq qGabf0MMxAYtnxEcCwUiZmoc7ofzB5asWtA3nljZ7cxBLPwliZarPEuUBRENl1tb9i 6zhAx8dFae+XA+7jSWOo+liFCGwW/HFdjeU9nPu6TjPrWE6Cfgjn3ulwnBhyLK1n5h bJigUCwtQSqwIf8qWYpUFYwiMjkYd8AkA4MJa7nPqiqzT2Cb8kmCRE0yLBOqGwUX06 yQSkxDcfDakKDtq8iruYVG/f9u2L0EuQ0AXgBCS2rAA17pDforjiW8XXY67Se5iQgx TZmqavaUZA9uA== Received: from null (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1D6863C0033; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 18:55:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 18:55:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Erwin Lansing , Ulrich Wisser Cc: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org, hr-rt@irtf.org, "Gould, James" , regext@ietf.org, gurshabad@cis-india.org Message-ID: <2051661767.13416.1538585748061@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <19A942C8-8EA6-436B-A431-930EDA7CD18A@lansing.dk> References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <19A942C8-8EA6-436B-A431-930EDA7CD18A@lansing.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev17 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 17:04:08 -0000 > Il 3 ottobre 2018 alle 18.01 Erwin Lansing ha scritto:= =20 >=20 >=20 > > On 3 Oct 2018, at 17.39, Ulrich Wisser < ulrich@wisser.se> wrote: > >=20 > >=20 > > Denmark has plans to only allow registrations with a Danish electronic = id. >=20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99m sorry to barge in and distract from the real discussion here, > but I cannot let such a blatant inaccuracy stand. There are no=20 > such plans, neither have there ever been such plans. I=E2=80=99d be happy= =20 > to expand on how registrant identity verification works off-list, > but let me suffice to say, that anyone in the world can register=20 > a .dk domain name, now and in the future. As far as I know, Danish .dk registrants have to identify themselves with a= national digital ID, but there are alternative procedures for foreign regi= strants. =C2=A0 For the HRPC folks, you may want to have a look here: =C2=A0 https://www.dk-hostmaster.dk/sites/default/files/2018-06/DIFOs%20kriminalit= etsbekaempelse_EN.pdf =C2=A0 to understand why this kind of "registrant vetting" has been introduced. It= 's not about censorship :-) =C2=A0 Regards,=C2=A0 --=20 Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com=20 Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Wed Oct 3 10:22:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA6F4127133 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 10:22:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VwmVmNXsIhoS for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 10:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFEF01252B7 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oRHO95KTFVntGi2yEg0W9ttT9ypCdel0t" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: eb53bbb737288330f1aa7ac75b2d5a40 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 17:22:22 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --oRHO95KTFVntGi2yEg0W9ttT9ypCdel0t Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="jCkriwQxiWjU119EE4DmEY62b8QtN8uiQ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Gurshabad Grover To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> --jCkriwQxiWjU119EE4DmEY62b8QtN8uiQ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EB2C075A4EB2E10C93FD0DE2" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EB2C075A4EB2E10C93FD0DE2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -(regext, hr-rt) On Wednesday 03 October 2018 08:35 PM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > This exchange strikes me because of the discussion that we have been > having on content tagging on HRPC (Nalini, Barry and I are still > working on it). > > So my question is: is any protocol that supports additional points of > content control at the national level favouring censorship, and thus > inherently bad and contrary to human rights? > > Or even, if you prefer: is all censorship inherently bad? More > specifically, if the national government or policy verification > authority used the proposed EPP extension to block the registration of > lets-kill-all-the-jews.cctld or child-pornography-for-everyone.cctld, > is it censoring the Internet, or is it just doing its job on behalf of > its citizens? > > And in that context, shouldn't the right to free expression of the > user be balanced with the right to cultural and legal sovereignty of > that country's citizens, which may end up establishing laws which > legitimately make some content illegal in their country? (not to > mention the rights of the people that may be harmed by the circulation > of certain content) I agree that nuance exists. Of course, the questions you have asked are perhaps suitable for a larger discussion in the hrpc list. For the moment, I'm limiting myself to the verification code extension, and why the concerns don't apply here. I think there is consensus in international human rights law (someone with more experience in the field can confirm/correct my understanding) that to censor jurisdictionally illegal content, post-facto take-down is a far more proportionate way than pre-screening content. For that simple reason, pre-verification of domain names is a disproportionate method to meet the objectives of legitimate censorship. Secondly, the verification code extension, in its "registrant" and "domain-registrant" modes (see Section 2.1.1 of the draft) allows the VSP to screen domain registrants' information, and not just domain names. Again, I do not find this a proportionate method to achieve censorship, as it has great potential for discrimination. In any case, the topic of censorship has been an issue of discussion at the ICANN and otherwise, and it will be useful to see those as well. [1][2][3] > > All in all, and with no offense for the reviewer's laudable efforts, > the assessment in the review that any local point of control is bad > because it could be used to harm someone's rights is IMHO too > simplistic: it could also be used to defend someone else's rights. Absolutely none taken. Hope the explanation is satisfactory in the sense that even if nation states have legitimate interest in some forms of censorship, the proposed extension allows for much more than that. Thank you. Gurshabad [1] Allen R. Grogan, 'ICANN Is Not the Internet Content Police', [2] Annemarie Bridy, 'Notice and Takedown in the Domain Name System: ICANN=E2=80=99s Ambivalent Drift into Online Content Regulation', [3] Dr. Monika Zalnieriute, 'ICANN=E2=80=99s Corporate Responsibility to = Respect Human Rights', --------------EB2C075A4EB2E10C93FD0DE2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
-(regext, hr-rt)

On Wednesday 03 October 2018 08:35 PM, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
This exchange strikes me because of the discussion that we have been having on content tagging on HRPC (Nalini, Barry and I are still working on it).

So my question is: is any protocol that supports additional points of content control at the national level favouring censorship, and thus inherently bad and contrary to human rights?

Or even, if you prefer: is all censorship inherently bad? More specifically, if the national government or policy verification authority used the proposed EPP extension to block the registration of lets-kill-all-the-jews.cctld or child-pornography-for-everyone.cctld, is it censoring the Internet, or is it just doing its job on behalf of its citizens?

And in that context, shouldn't the right to free expression of the user be balanced with the right to cultural and legal sovereignty of that country's citizens, which may end up establishing laws which legitimately make some content illegal in their country? (not to mention the rights of the people that may be harmed by the circulation of certain content)

I agree that nuance exists. Of course, the questions you have asked are perhaps suitable for a larger discussion in the hrpc list. For the moment, I'm limiting myself to the verification code extension, and why the concerns don't apply here.

I think there is consensus in international human rights law (someone with more experience in the field can confirm/correct my understanding) that to censor jurisdictionally illegal content, post-facto take-down is a far more proportionate way than pre-screening content. For that simple reason, pre-verification of domain names is a disproportionate method to meet the objectives of legitimate censorship.

Secondly, the verification code extension, in its "registran= t" and "domain-registrant" modes (see Section 2.1.1 of the draft) allows the VSP to screen domain registrants' information, and not just domain names. Again, I do not find this a proportionate method to achieve censorship, as it has great potential for discrimination.

In any case, the topic of censorship has been an issue of discussion at the ICANN and otherwise, and it will be useful to see those as well. [1][2][3]

All in all, and with no offense for the reviewer's laudable efforts, the assessment in the review that any local point of control is bad because it could be used to harm someone's rights is IMHO too simplistic: it could also be used to defend someone else's rights.

Absolutely none taken. Hope the explanation is satisfactory in the sense that even if nation states have legitimate interest in some forms of censorship, the proposed extension allows for much more than that.

 Thank you.
Gurshabad

[1] Allen R. Grogan, 'ICANN Is Not the Internet Content Police', <https://www.icann.org/news/blog/icann-is-not-the-internet-co= ntent-police>

[2] Annemarie Bridy, 'Notice and Takedown in the Domain Name System: ICANN=E2=80=99s Ambivalent Drift into Online Content Regula= tion', <https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3D2920805&g= t;

[3] Dr. Monika Zalnieriute, 'ICANN=E2=80=99s Corporate Responsibili= ty to Respect Human Rights', <https://www.article19.= org/data/files/medialibrary/37845/ICANN-PAPER-WEB.pdf>


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Wed, 3 Oct 2018 11:29:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OJqxIyT26Amz; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 11:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CA591292AD; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 11:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g7luD-0004AV-2a; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 20:29:53 +0200 To: ietf@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org References: <20180920233440.238CA20051DDE5@ary.qy> <6.2.5.6.2.20180924024544.0c251848@elandnews.com> From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20180924024544.0c251848@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 5a1627636b35b65657045ef62631cd80 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] why exactly is HRPC for, was Diversity and offensive terminology in RFCs X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 18:29:59 -0000 On 24/09/2018 13:58, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi John, > At 04:34 PM 20-09-2018, John Levine wrote: >> There are real human rights problems that HRPC could engage with, but >> don't.=C2=A0 They need to make up their mind whether they're serious. >=20 > The charter of the research group states that one of the major aims of > its research is to expose the relation between protocols and human > rights with a focus on Article 19 and Article 20 of the UDHR.=C2=A0 The= re are > opportunities for continued development in the research group's > understanding of (IETF) protocols.=C2=A0 Some of the research seems to = be > optimized towards picking what is readily available instead of a > systematic exploration of the issues. Not only are there opportunities, as S says, but a wide open door to explore human rights and protocol issues. The RG's first and only (so far) RFC 8280 is a very wide exploration of the topic. Working drafts are diving deeper into specific issues. It's not that authors in the RG picking low hanging fruit, or "what is readily available." The research so far has been identified at the intersection of 1) the expertise and interests of the authors and 2) support and interest from the RG on pursuing the research. Adding the HRPC list in case there are further ideas about approach in identifying research and/or real human rights problems that can be addressed through the group's research. -Mallory --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Wed Oct 3 13:38:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6BD129619 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 13:38:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U9uKY_gybhL8 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 13:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E9CC130DBE for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 13:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g7nun-0000w4-Gi for hrpc@irtf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2018 22:38:37 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <19A942C8-8EA6-436B-A431-930EDA7CD18A@lansing.dk> <2051661767.13416.1538585748061@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFjWlnsBEAC+jUN+LJE+mmxEL8lHSrvg47xSBMb9GdtH1Jr8tRSxXiO6R5E+FydsfqkL sjO0dI3x/VnNBi/kgPFFWiAzDEwGTiR/C9b/Muo+xrY+it6e49N56LTPGezrY2dy5yo6VcLl 7UwGz3fIWiNIj7dvuoPMBoO1uacF073E+dqDM5CmNh6o+OrHW8zhUlC9hKgXCq+8XpZJw90H un1zsHF0sRDiurjfYaCcbdAGK9+th9378ed1ZvLVo5uBVQXdydl3eJkNCOELq7VOS7oxSliA uX5/nj9A4LjeeYXgNbwGfKrMjlffP0FcAcgfzg9seqDd1DEk9EVaUMTr32fbWOQHjinXSC7r Lw4xaNfoBebIe1M6z16Xg7+bXXCTdmJYcL9ugmkvT6tGnR12Pfoca1oBwXPvA0VIRi86kCSU D9qvZ3Vl07MKD2hsvFkGZJOQfEaYv5QLpCWv6RCjfDNC05IyMeSW4H18Fr/BoHX8FXHV3+9H LsbJQ/Zrofd/Cm+TKEmXLAtYc7iXvzV+mw3/u0VYqjEy/CRYa62Ah0NNNVIuswfRVIfx3UZo jX4y8j2Kh0jtUV5A4GGf8H3SzQ/cB0I7wTRHU9mCPVCtH6M26nPumL4Zr4D6uGnAmPf9xnlX lokOn2Qxf/mBldsL41PDbEpYhZvvn5kJ/Z9Qh7Fks/hfTbbJowARAQABzSxBbWVsaWEgQW5k ZXJzZG90dGVyIDxhbWVsaWFAYW5kZXJzZG90dGVyLmNjPsLBlwQTAQgAQQIbIwUJCWYBgAUL CQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgBYhBD1dtsq4UrmIBVpqb/7xwpS06AtVBQJY1pdiAhkB AAoJEP7xwpS06AtVI0sP/Al6eUycymdT1R7v0uEQv4coonnOUV6FKj/4wc+wM+A0h7vlqADr j4nS7RRSQRUo8xJ9tvR9J1Eyske5bvakOYv64f9PrNY1Z6ABhJzK34kJxekEfeLmpXAB4wst GhD8dGC/z/b9Oau0AW1GWIP0eNWq4acDf9Qf+j0wqQi25OZUXnu5KeUX7mvPTHKZLyEZlwHV atXmZHWKnQWtEPZTQfv/zESsoBAm1TbaLapgxVG9uLW+I9kj72TB/AZ5hMSKMYWZ2dC+8eEs Xd22tn6907aUmZhFT89jbEyS996WeZ+SQ5G1Okrq02qYXcCi5vm3AuvLlbRYHguh42TLaVq1 er7PiYOYH77FFmnZWW6ChFnf7xsDep2tpNxn+QUZLgO3+5kL7TfO7D2H57kjVVMdkNn+01nz kfcn76K7nuU6Dc4pItPzbDndhdxulnm9cicOEfGQqvta9ffxk4YWyAu9PUNARVRNf6OnoDQQ Zo8l1o37q9PFXJyQwzvxdd9u6uzTny2wp9eig75pD3dYHCRIQeYmkv1kB81mc86cwgvuw1Qy /QwiCBNXSSuIvLO78b+/dB0DLVQC/c6gtyWXRpC4ysF4EaEZophjT60d12YRanR+fWuH+qu2 wsT+z1d4tC5/6UJMPr3bxREh9JHThm5Y3cDBmcn0PGqtDKkwjCkqex5bzsFNBFjWlnsBEADF jusaTo9W8VeWluCK/oJqyyyF1wMvou0ldfuoOpUZrOqsY67TM7yBqsv5COPVgAV+xp+axor5 oHWxibd283w0Ok4dK6tvtNGwUqyDRlHtQ92DG/u4Tg5eOwrHNUn73/rfeBD9KhKAXcNKKPoc cLgR8oQTXpO7eRo+0NI52pXQ6LdZ0wddYeTcHglsNKN1TK+CyYS7xfGolsZXXoBOKcyhfj/c kPFVIHWpGpEtcYWTZWvXgLprzHvpKzkzNyBwejaXE+bqCT2dRl3omI/e2t3Vq33hFUUSAdxr FF29vMX/YsSnYqsFOIoayna+TRsDFAfZvbvHBOMckeJzvA8yBdadw7CM08Uw8wqH7n9BA3oq //QpZJekPfrc2E9nM9H0d51T0uStLMbYDWdwxvfPA3p9z8L91vobt8bM/Jbhl9h+X2Yq9oBC iTI7b2izYd9FVG4BwBIdeh3bh9R9HExgRjF3XQ6uafT3pcVOPASdv9FRUYH1Va7QWQifoha0 B7UXKx1OpX1Z6XR2NQ9KN2MvlwvBKdHtm6tBzUIFzW6D8vUOxiYKBA4fppJt/LJF4jsaCEyI /CVQnkC0yL5DKFOdigxTipwEL9Uc6r7VfR5OAGFd6vzuJFy+j+/WhzaVT1oVYp6eQXh0bBtq qH2Mq9sAMnIjvaNYIKiQKgMa1Pa3OWQbQQARAQABwsF8BBgBCAAmFiEEPV22yrhSuYgFWmpv /vHClLToC1UFAljWlnsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQ/vHClLToC1XnRw//W4lzE8FddceKXGRwO/T1 u4uzH9EjPCj+3/eHCrLI+h1m7QPyH1DrFAtZBoA6UoaF0+vIAJXM9/HI1FZ09EUdJr5X/+YR EErFom4DbE1FK8fpK1/Hw2zI+7Xa8bVkmYrKhMGhi1Gq6Dtksn/H4USdJL53ZPt10SVNK7H3 w93Yp1GC4+0zWjfrsKfsHYZZr2SZyb5/gZlngfgaqiQLhIcPYmiU1GQi9QWkGxWRxk0YQXBw hekewvgltATxlRSCwguAi4uck9fAct9GGdpsshSOgAb9YIAnEV3EqaGnf0PknXp3vNHAZWrf M+RyuNdm2L5TjDU0rIrvyqGP3pR33cREGOAil5Sz2uFArmwsPt8VffbEXlf7qZqRBKaYeKt0 qnxKMx1+e1JilVsfb8qtnAWAFDyR0HMlVj/dvGAmq/auPSOAUWRSnDRyT6rv/vXxrbkL4uxW ax46qdpDhR15mS5MTng6b5b3Uox7xlveo/Sx71AdNf4goPvB/ntv0DiMuh+fmLGk3zrxs4Xd 30Sx+qQwVaXR5xc5rgnF81wvfmuAOb2eP9mpD6DoabkpxC8fLk17AK7Q1ZTgcZ+8XLRFnavd PrwCa9RU0BF53lJMSTPzyBcMwZ4sqA6Z5IRFVt7rEbSeeD8REiawo+FvVt9j0fKdNEBeaJ3W Y5hlhNPcUXr4q1U= Organization: ARTICLE19 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 22:38:36 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2051661767.13416.1538585748061@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US-large Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 488b5a33f748713be529de57fa847022 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 20:38:43 -0000 On 2018-10-03 18:55, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >> Il 3 ottobre 2018 alle 18.01 Erwin Lansing ha scrit= to:=20 >> >> >>> On 3 Oct 2018, at 17.39, Ulrich Wisser < ulrich@wisser.se> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Denmark has plans to only allow registrations with a Danish electroni= c id. >> >> I=E2=80=99m sorry to barge in and distract from the real discussion he= re, >> but I cannot let such a blatant inaccuracy stand. There are no=20 >> such plans, neither have there ever been such plans. I=E2=80=99d be ha= ppy=20 >> to expand on how registrant identity verification works off-list, >> but let me suffice to say, that anyone in the world can register=20 >> a .dk domain name, now and in the future. > As far as I know, Danish .dk registrants have to identify themselves wi= th a national digital ID, but there are alternative procedures for foreig= n registrants. > =C2=A0 In Sweden, you need a Swedish social security number. I tried registering a domain without one at one point (actually using a friend who was not from Sweden and therefore not in possession of such a number) but was informed it wasn't possible. The IIS (registry) claims it's for billing purposes, which strikes me as disingenuous when they could just deregister the domain if it wasn't paid for. best regards, Amelia > For the HRPC folks, you may want to have a look here: > =C2=A0 > https://www.dk-hostmaster.dk/sites/default/files/2018-06/DIFOs%20krimin= alitetsbekaempelse_EN.pdf > =C2=A0 > to understand why this kind of "registrant vetting" has been introduced= . It's not about censorship :-) > =C2=A0 > Regards,=C2=A0 --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Thu Oct 4 01:31:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FA2130DE9 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:31:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ImBOo3uGc6Ld for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 249CC130DFD for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B5866A31A; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:31:13 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1538641873; bh=VGCGV+5fwinSkxX01LLQXcmTz5WmZx7sxq/eq86h9Ho=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=XqgnY9J6/m7JyFDUOLb+kodtmHX5ulJ6acmMHjGAC2hywU09FeQXOXtLxjRIVISEo KXfsIo2l6wL9I71qciVykNYFeFJpeqVFU7p8rbYsusWLCnhwFw55lqHYZHxjEW0U5Z SuML7VcS5ROnYnk54yvrtIs7L8BISVLO0S0oWVh1VziUykP81tLRbfe9S9tRROE5J9 GEsX2kaK6UKMId1HB0CY8ihJnd/7lDpT47cUaW8lTl9ikjHKDAIMJ/HyjlttRiLAdi DtTVXhsK+B9Ffm3+qmE3LkLqFxzyhO7teZfJU2kGcXMrLK9QNHf7h8hZ1Q34a61FoZ LrlMx2sU8wdoQ== Received: from null (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4AEDF3C010F; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:31:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:31:12 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Gurshabad Grover Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev17 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 08:31:18 -0000 > Il 3 ottobre 2018 alle 19.22 Gurshabad Grover h= a scritto:=20 > =20 >=20 > > All in all, and with no offense for the reviewer's laudable efforts, t= he assessment in the review that any local point of control is bad because = it could be used to harm someone's rights is IMHO too simplistic: it could = also be used to defend someone else's rights. =20 > > =20 >=20 > Absolutely none taken. Hope the explanation is satisfactory in the sense= that even if nation states have legitimate interest in some forms of censo= rship, the proposed extension allows for much more than that. I understand, but then, the IETF as a community needs to make up its mind o= n where it stands on technologies that could allow very bad uses. I had thi= s same discussion but reversed, on the DNSOP group, regarding DNS-over-HTTP= S, which, as a primary and explicit use, has the circumvention both of secu= rity filters deployed by ISPs and of content filters deployed by States thr= ough laws and court orders that require the ISPs to implement them. This ci= rcumvention may harm the users and even be plainly illegal in many countrie= s, but I was told: sure, but we cannot stop a new standard because it "coul= d" have illegal uses, as any technology could be used in bad ways. =C2=A0 Here, what you are saying is: this technology has good uses, but since it c= ould also have bad ones, we object to it. =C2=A0 So I am pretty confused - the only common point among the two positions see= ms to be that in both cases, as a shared cultural value, the IETF doesn't l= ike national sovereignty. =C2=A0 Regards, --=20 Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com=20 Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Thu Oct 4 01:39:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134F4130DFD for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:39:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:39:11 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1538642351; bh=PFrVxcc5NyOU9t8eoVPoBX4/jnrHmApNBVjYkf7FSuU=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ratOA3PEWKGy5+tbuuGNJlgbbrMeZTcbgPA19tKYbJB+VSewTl6ChL81MbcGg+UPd Xrqt3+ytLSKsWtA79FF6D6otbc9rHHMvhlN3OasegVyIEurkgY2iUY1tQ14O/uJKBq SZgYwAnchCg+2Ayk8w3cgPtNMNUeKOKkkwTWMEbM= To: Vittorio Bertola , Gurshabad Grover Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzTJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxM7BTQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:39:11 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------EC296B326A94AC240F684497" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 08:39:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EC296B326A94AC240F684497 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hiya, On 04/10/18 09:31, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > I understand, but then, the IETF as a community needs to make up its > mind on where it stands on technologies that could allow very bad > uses. I had this same discussion but reversed, on the DNSOP group, > regarding DNS-over-HTTPS, which, as a primary and explicit use, has > the circumvention both of security filters deployed by ISPs and of > content filters deployed by States through laws and court orders that > require the ISPs to implement them. This circumvention may harm the > users and even be plainly illegal in many countries, but I was told: > sure, but we cannot stop a new standard because it "could" have > illegal uses, as any technology could be used in bad ways. > > Here, what you are saying is: this technology has good uses, but > since it could also have bad ones, we object to it. > > So I am pretty confused - the only common point among the two > positions seems to be that in both cases, as a shared cultural value, > the IETF doesn't like national sovereignty. I can see how the all-or-nothing presentation above, if it were the reality, could be confusing. But things are not so black and white. In the case of DNS privacy, there are sometimes complex trade-offs that have been recognised, and that I'm sure will be the subject of more work. In this case (though I've not read the regext draft myself), I would guess something similar might be true. I would agree that "objecting" to a technology that had good and bad uses, just because some bad use existed would, in general, be OTT, however, asking that the perceived-bad uses be considered is not that. 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ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A50CA130DE9 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g7zDv-0002DR-WA; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:43:08 +0200 To: Vittorio Bertola , Gurshabad Grover Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc 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1f72ff50073f138f9668c095d6f579a1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 08:43:13 -0000 On 04/10/2018 11:31, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >> Il 3 ottobre 2018 alle 19.22 Gurshabad Grover >> ha scritto: >> >>> All in all, and with no offense for the reviewer's laudable >>> efforts, the assessment in the review that any local point of >>> control is bad because it could be used to harm someone's rights >>> is IMHO too simplistic: it could also be used to defend someone >>> else's rights. >>> >> Absolutely none taken. Hope the explanation is satisfactory in the >> sense that even if nation states have legitimate interest in some >> forms of censorship, the proposed extension allows for much more >> than that. > > I understand, but then, the IETF as a community needs to make up its > mind on where it stands on technologies that could allow very bad > uses. I had this same discussion but reversed, on the DNSOP group, > regarding DNS-over-HTTPS, which, as a primary and explicit use, has > the circumvention both of security filters deployed by ISPs and of > content filters deployed by States through laws and court orders that > require the ISPs to implement them. This circumvention may harm the > users and even be plainly illegal in many countries, but I was told: > sure, but we cannot stop a new standard because it "could" have > illegal uses, as any technology could be used in bad ways. > > Here, what you are saying is: this technology has good uses, but > since it could also have bad ones, we object to it. > > So I am pretty confused - the only common point among the two > positions seems to be that in both cases, as a shared cultural value, > the IETF doesn't like national sovereignty. I think your comment makes sense, Vittorio to put this into a values frame. And to make it simpler, the values frame for this review and others from participants in the HR-RT is human rights. Maybe there are other value frames at play in other reviews done by other people, and perhaps the IETF has some common but informal shared values, but it should be clear and straight forward that the common position of HR-RT reviews is human rights. -Mallory -- Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Thu Oct 4 01:50:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82828130E04 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:50:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2NyCEH1tugnJ for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14E24130DFD for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g7zKY-0003lD-5f for hrpc@irtf.org; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:49:59 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFjWlnsBEAC+jUN+LJE+mmxEL8lHSrvg47xSBMb9GdtH1Jr8tRSxXiO6R5E+FydsfqkL sjO0dI3x/VnNBi/kgPFFWiAzDEwGTiR/C9b/Muo+xrY+it6e49N56LTPGezrY2dy5yo6VcLl 7UwGz3fIWiNIj7dvuoPMBoO1uacF073E+dqDM5CmNh6o+OrHW8zhUlC9hKgXCq+8XpZJw90H un1zsHF0sRDiurjfYaCcbdAGK9+th9378ed1ZvLVo5uBVQXdydl3eJkNCOELq7VOS7oxSliA uX5/nj9A4LjeeYXgNbwGfKrMjlffP0FcAcgfzg9seqDd1DEk9EVaUMTr32fbWOQHjinXSC7r Lw4xaNfoBebIe1M6z16Xg7+bXXCTdmJYcL9ugmkvT6tGnR12Pfoca1oBwXPvA0VIRi86kCSU D9qvZ3Vl07MKD2hsvFkGZJOQfEaYv5QLpCWv6RCjfDNC05IyMeSW4H18Fr/BoHX8FXHV3+9H LsbJQ/Zrofd/Cm+TKEmXLAtYc7iXvzV+mw3/u0VYqjEy/CRYa62Ah0NNNVIuswfRVIfx3UZo jX4y8j2Kh0jtUV5A4GGf8H3SzQ/cB0I7wTRHU9mCPVCtH6M26nPumL4Zr4D6uGnAmPf9xnlX lokOn2Qxf/mBldsL41PDbEpYhZvvn5kJ/Z9Qh7Fks/hfTbbJowARAQABzSxBbWVsaWEgQW5k ZXJzZG90dGVyIDxhbWVsaWFAYW5kZXJzZG90dGVyLmNjPsLBlwQTAQgAQQIbIwUJCWYBgAUL CQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgBYhBD1dtsq4UrmIBVpqb/7xwpS06AtVBQJY1pdiAhkB AAoJEP7xwpS06AtVI0sP/Al6eUycymdT1R7v0uEQv4coonnOUV6FKj/4wc+wM+A0h7vlqADr j4nS7RRSQRUo8xJ9tvR9J1Eyske5bvakOYv64f9PrNY1Z6ABhJzK34kJxekEfeLmpXAB4wst GhD8dGC/z/b9Oau0AW1GWIP0eNWq4acDf9Qf+j0wqQi25OZUXnu5KeUX7mvPTHKZLyEZlwHV atXmZHWKnQWtEPZTQfv/zESsoBAm1TbaLapgxVG9uLW+I9kj72TB/AZ5hMSKMYWZ2dC+8eEs Xd22tn6907aUmZhFT89jbEyS996WeZ+SQ5G1Okrq02qYXcCi5vm3AuvLlbRYHguh42TLaVq1 er7PiYOYH77FFmnZWW6ChFnf7xsDep2tpNxn+QUZLgO3+5kL7TfO7D2H57kjVVMdkNn+01nz kfcn76K7nuU6Dc4pItPzbDndhdxulnm9cicOEfGQqvta9ffxk4YWyAu9PUNARVRNf6OnoDQQ Zo8l1o37q9PFXJyQwzvxdd9u6uzTny2wp9eig75pD3dYHCRIQeYmkv1kB81mc86cwgvuw1Qy /QwiCBNXSSuIvLO78b+/dB0DLVQC/c6gtyWXRpC4ysF4EaEZophjT60d12YRanR+fWuH+qu2 wsT+z1d4tC5/6UJMPr3bxREh9JHThm5Y3cDBmcn0PGqtDKkwjCkqex5bzsFNBFjWlnsBEADF jusaTo9W8VeWluCK/oJqyyyF1wMvou0ldfuoOpUZrOqsY67TM7yBqsv5COPVgAV+xp+axor5 oHWxibd283w0Ok4dK6tvtNGwUqyDRlHtQ92DG/u4Tg5eOwrHNUn73/rfeBD9KhKAXcNKKPoc cLgR8oQTXpO7eRo+0NI52pXQ6LdZ0wddYeTcHglsNKN1TK+CyYS7xfGolsZXXoBOKcyhfj/c kPFVIHWpGpEtcYWTZWvXgLprzHvpKzkzNyBwejaXE+bqCT2dRl3omI/e2t3Vq33hFUUSAdxr FF29vMX/YsSnYqsFOIoayna+TRsDFAfZvbvHBOMckeJzvA8yBdadw7CM08Uw8wqH7n9BA3oq //QpZJekPfrc2E9nM9H0d51T0uStLMbYDWdwxvfPA3p9z8L91vobt8bM/Jbhl9h+X2Yq9oBC iTI7b2izYd9FVG4BwBIdeh3bh9R9HExgRjF3XQ6uafT3pcVOPASdv9FRUYH1Va7QWQifoha0 B7UXKx1OpX1Z6XR2NQ9KN2MvlwvBKdHtm6tBzUIFzW6D8vUOxiYKBA4fppJt/LJF4jsaCEyI /CVQnkC0yL5DKFOdigxTipwEL9Uc6r7VfR5OAGFd6vzuJFy+j+/WhzaVT1oVYp6eQXh0bBtq qH2Mq9sAMnIjvaNYIKiQKgMa1Pa3OWQbQQARAQABwsF8BBgBCAAmFiEEPV22yrhSuYgFWmpv /vHClLToC1UFAljWlnsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQ/vHClLToC1XnRw//W4lzE8FddceKXGRwO/T1 u4uzH9EjPCj+3/eHCrLI+h1m7QPyH1DrFAtZBoA6UoaF0+vIAJXM9/HI1FZ09EUdJr5X/+YR EErFom4DbE1FK8fpK1/Hw2zI+7Xa8bVkmYrKhMGhi1Gq6Dtksn/H4USdJL53ZPt10SVNK7H3 w93Yp1GC4+0zWjfrsKfsHYZZr2SZyb5/gZlngfgaqiQLhIcPYmiU1GQi9QWkGxWRxk0YQXBw hekewvgltATxlRSCwguAi4uck9fAct9GGdpsshSOgAb9YIAnEV3EqaGnf0PknXp3vNHAZWrf M+RyuNdm2L5TjDU0rIrvyqGP3pR33cREGOAil5Sz2uFArmwsPt8VffbEXlf7qZqRBKaYeKt0 qnxKMx1+e1JilVsfb8qtnAWAFDyR0HMlVj/dvGAmq/auPSOAUWRSnDRyT6rv/vXxrbkL4uxW ax46qdpDhR15mS5MTng6b5b3Uox7xlveo/Sx71AdNf4goPvB/ntv0DiMuh+fmLGk3zrxs4Xd 30Sx+qQwVaXR5xc5rgnF81wvfmuAOb2eP9mpD6DoabkpxC8fLk17AK7Q1ZTgcZ+8XLRFnavd PrwCa9RU0BF53lJMSTPzyBcMwZ4sqA6Z5IRFVt7rEbSeeD8REiawo+FvVt9j0fKdNEBeaJ3W Y5hlhNPcUXr4q1U= Organization: ARTICLE19 Message-ID: <47a54979-25a0-7dab-4f90-48f862b75a35@article19.org> Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:49:55 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US-large X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 2ecd0b53b7de9511489f92806276a3d7 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 08:50:05 -0000 On 2018-10-04 10:31, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > =C2=A0 > So I am pretty confused - the only common point among the two positions= seems to be that in both cases, as a shared cultural value, the IETF doe= sn't like national sovereignty. Although I must object to the idea that a telecommunications operator's network could be construed as a sovereign nation (we can discuss some time!). I also recall that the work of Gurshabad, and others in HRPC, is grounded in presumptively (by express agreement between sovereign nations) global values: human rights, civic and political rights, social and economic rights. I think it's wrong to cast DoH in the same light as the VPECC review: 1) there is a DoH review project ongoing in HRPC review team, 2) public interest aspects of DoH are being discussed because of its potential, in particular, to reduce the available options for users with respect to provider at no clear data management benefit to the users. best regards, --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Thu Oct 4 01:51:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87D31130E04 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:51:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4U5WT5sfwTij for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF584130E03 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 01:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g7zML-000463-QQ for hrpc@irtf.org; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:51:49 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:51:49 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 4052b6d1c9976086d5ab5ce040fcf5b8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 08:51:54 -0000 On 10/04/2018 10:39 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > I would agree that "objecting" to a technology that had > good and bad uses, just because some bad use existed would, > in general, be OTT, however, asking that the perceived-bad > uses be considered is not that. In this case there is no common practice (that I know of after interviewing several registries) or legal demand (after reviewing several legal frameworks) to use third party identification verification services. There are issues with the non-consentual sharing of PII. So it would be interesting to understand the use-cases of this EPP-extension to understand what the intended uses, and their implications, are. Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Thu Oct 4 02:32:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D06130E05 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 02:32:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kTmUY5d_idvI for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 02:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nef2.ens.fr (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6DC130E0A for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 02:32:31 -0700 (PDT) X-ENS-nef-client: 129.199.129.80 Received: from phare.normalesup.org (phare.normalesup.org [129.199.129.80]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.6/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id w949WS9N036475 ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:32:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by phare.normalesup.org (Postfix, from userid 1008) id C53C9E00D5; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:32:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:32:28 +0200 From: Arthur Reutenauer To: Amelia Andersdotter Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20181004093228.GA2166513@phare.normalesup.org> Reply-To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <19A942C8-8EA6-436B-A431-930EDA7CD18A@lansing.dk> <2051661767.13416.1538585748061@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <201810040557.w945vf1V099383@nef2.ens.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201810040557.w945vf1V099383@nef2.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:32:29 +0200 (CEST) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 09:32:36 -0000 On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 10:38:36PM +0200, Amelia Andersdotter wrote: > In Sweden, you need a Swedish social security number. I tried > registering a domain without one at one point (actually using a friend > who was not from Sweden and therefore not in possession of such a > number) but was informed it wasn't possible. It was possible in December 2016, I was able to register a .se domain name by just giving my date of birth instead of a Swedish personal number. Best, Arthur From nobody Thu Oct 4 05:26:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A000130E50; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 05:26:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verisign.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PSmnHjN4F9co; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 05:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail5.verisign.com (mail5.verisign.com [69.58.187.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75CB6130E21; 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Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:26:25 -0400 Received: from BRN1WNEX02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([fe80::7c0a:1cc:5def:9dde]) by BRN1WNEX02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([fe80::7c0a:1cc:5def:9dde%4]) with mapi id 15.01.1531.003; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:26:25 -0400 From: "Hollenbeck, Scott" To: "'lists@digitaldissidents.org'" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" CC: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode Thread-Index: AQHUWxr5hyC056QopEWFVA23IQF5HKUNyqSAgAE2IjA= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:26:25 +0000 Message-ID: <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> In-Reply-To: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.170.148.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:26:31 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiByZWdleHQgPHJlZ2V4dC1ib3Vu Y2VzQGlldGYub3JnPiBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgTmllbHMgdGVuIE9ldmVyDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5l c2RheSwgT2N0b2JlciAwMywgMjAxOCA5OjQyIEFNDQo+IFRvOiBHb3VsZCwgSmFtZXMgPGpnb3Vs ZD00MHZlcmlzaWduLmNvbUBkbWFyYy5pZXRmLm9yZz4NCj4gQ2M6IGhyLXJ0QGlydGYub3JnOyBo cnBjQGlydGYub3JnOyByZWdleHRAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IGd1cnNoYWJhZEBjaXMtDQo+IGluZGlhLm9y Zw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBbRVhURVJOQUxdIFJlOiBbcmVnZXh0XSBIdW1hbiBSaWdodHMgUmV2aWV3 IG9mIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcmVnZXh0LQ0KPiB2ZXJpZmljYXRpb25jb2RlDQo+DQo+IEhpIEphbWVz LA0KPg0KPiBPbiBXZWQsIE9jdCAwMywgMjAxOCBhdCAwMToxNDoxMFBNICswMDAwLCBHb3VsZCwg SmFtZXMgd3JvdGU6DQo+ID4gVGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgcmV2aWV3LCBHdXJzaGFiYWQuIEknbGwg Y29uc2lkZXIgeW91ciBmZWVkYmFjayBpbiB0aGUNCj4gY29udGV4dCBvZiB0ZWNobmljYWwgaXNz dWVzIHdpdGggdGhlIGRyYWZ0LiAgVGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbiBvZiBkb21haW4NCj4gbmFtZXMg aW4gc29tZSBqdXJpc2RpY3Rpb25zIG1heSBiZSBzdWJqZWN0IHRvIHZhcmlvdXMgcmVxdWlyZW1l bnRzIHRoYXQNCj4gaW52b2x2ZSB2ZXJpZmljYXRpb24gYnkgYSBwYXJ0eSBvdGhlciB0aGFuIHRo ZSByZWdpc3RyeS4NCj4NCj4gQ291bGQgeW91IHBsZWFzZSBiZSBzbyBraW5kIHRvIGxpbmsgdG8g c29tZSBvZiB0aGVzZSBsZWdhbCByZXF1aXJlbWVudHM/DQoNClRoZXJlIGFyZSBzZXZlcmFsIGV4 YW1wbGVzIG9mIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IG9wZXJhdG9ycyB0aGF0IHJlcXVpcmUgdmVyaWZpY2F0aW9uIGFz IHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlaXIgZG9tYWluIHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbiBwcm9jZXNzLiBIZXJlIGFyZSBhIGZl dyBjY1RMRCBleGFtcGxlczoNCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZGVuaWMuZGUvZW4vZmFxcy9mYXFzLWZv ci1kb21haW4tYXBwbGljYW50cy8jZmFxLTE5DQoNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lm5pYy5mci9lbi9yZXNv dXJjZXMvZmFxL2dlbmVyYWwtZmFxLw0KKExvb2sgZm9yIHRoZSAiSSBhbSBhIHByaXZhdGUgaW5k aXZpZHVhbDsgYW0gSSBlbnRpdGxlZCB0byBmaWxlIGEgZG9tYWluIG5hbWUgdW5kZXIgdGhlIC5m ciBvciAucmUgVExEPyIgYW5kICJJIHJlcHJlc2VudCBhIEZyZW5jaCBvciBmb3JlaWduIGNvbXBh bnkgLyBhc3NvY2lhdGlvbiAvIG5hdGlvbmFsIG9yIGludGVybmF0aW9uYWwgaW5zdGl0dXRpb247 IHdoYXQgYXJlIG15IHJpZ2h0cyB3aXRoIHJlZ2FyZCB0byBmaWxpbmcgYSBkb21haW4gbmFtZSB1 bmRlciB0aGUgVExEcyBvcGVyYXRlZCBieSBBRk5JQyA/IiBxdWVzdGlvbnMgdW5kZXIgIkNob29z aW5nIGEgZG9tYWluIG5hbWUiLikNCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYWJvdXQudXMvcG9saWNpZXMvdXN0 bGQtbmV4dXMtcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzDQoNCkFueSBvbmUgb2YgdGhlc2UgcmVnaXN0cmllcyBjb3Vs ZCB1c2UgdGhlIHZlcmlmaWNhdGlvbiBjb2RlIGFwcHJvYWNoIGlmIGl0IHdlcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxl Lg0KDQpJbiBhZGRpdGlvbiwgU2VjdGlvbiAzLjcuMiBvZiB0aGUgMjAxMyBJQ0FOTiBSZWdpc3Ry YXIgQWNjcmVkaXRhdGlvbiBBZ3JlZW1lbnQgKFJBQSkgc2F5cywgIlJlZ2lzdHJhciBzaGFsbCBh YmlkZSBieSBhcHBsaWNhYmxlIGxhd3MgYW5kIGdvdmVybm1lbnRhbCByZWd1bGF0aW9ucyIuDQoN ClNjb3R0DQo= From nobody Thu Oct 4 05:35:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DFD130E29; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 05:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UNH0d2WsMXRQ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 05:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70322130E16; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 05:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g82qs-0008Ga-9m; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 14:35:34 +0200 To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" Cc: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lists@digitaldissidents.org; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 4b8baa00aa45d625c6ee6c23f4cb0de1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:35:40 -0000 Hi Scott, On 10/04/2018 02:26 PM, Hollenbeck, Scott wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: regext On Behalf Of Niels ten Oever >> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 9:42 AM >> To: Gould, James >> Cc: hr-rt@irtf.org; hrpc@irtf.org; regext@ietf.org; gurshabad@cis- >> india.org >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext- >> verificationcode >> >> Hi James, >> >> On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 01:14:10PM +0000, Gould, James wrote: >>> Thanks for the review, Gurshabad. I'll consider your feedback in the >> context of technical issues with the draft. The registration of domain >> names in some jurisdictions may be subject to various requirements that >> involve verification by a party other than the registry. >> >> Could you please be so kind to link to some of these legal requirements? > > There are several examples of registry operators that require verification as part of their domain registration process. Here are a few ccTLD examples: > > https://www.denic.de/en/faqs/faqs-for-domain-applicants/#faq-19 > > https://www.nic.fr/en/resources/faq/general-faq/ > (Look for the "I am a private individual; am I entitled to file a domain name under the .fr or .re TLD?" and "I represent a French or foreign company / association / national or international institution; what are my rights with regard to filing a domain name under the TLDs operated by AFNIC ?" questions under "Choosing a domain name".) > > https://www.about.us/policies/ustld-nexus-requirements > > Any one of these registries could use the verification code approach if it were available. > Thanks for your reply. I interviewed the people from Denic and Nic.fr and they explicitly told me they would not use external verification, but rather do this is in house. So I am not sure how they would use this extension. > In addition, Section 3.7.2 of the 2013 ICANN Registrar Accreditation Agreement (RAA) says, "Registrar shall abide by applicable laws and governmental regulations". > I have reviewed several legal framework but did not find laws or regulation that made this obligatory. It would be great if you could link to national laws or regulations that would demand a third party identity verification. Best, Niels > Scott > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Thu Oct 4 06:26:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1707128CE4; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 06:26:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.289 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.289 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verisign.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hgDZcaUP88rx; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 06:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A64FC12DD85; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 06:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g8484-0004Dd-Vq; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:57:25 +0200 To: gaia@irtf.org, hrpc@irtf.org References: From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ 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X-Scan-Signature: a2d32f98be707cbcda8602d5fffa976a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 13:57:30 -0000 Hi Steve, Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it. I think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that could be another post in and of itself. The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to socialist, and even (back to) the commons! I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have raised issues of centralisation on the list in the past. -Mallory On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre > infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about > everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0 >=20 > https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ >=20 > Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other reactions > you may have.=C2=A0 >=20 > Thanks.... Steve Song >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >=20 --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Thu Oct 4 10:44:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEFA2130EF1 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:44:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fsg_g0HraaTn for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A65F130EA2 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g87fc-0001oE-3r; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 19:44:16 +0200 From: Gurshabad Grover To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=gurshabad@cis-india.org; keydata= xsFNBFriroIBEADfyDpCD8eborMUMXKtZzjo4t2KzrAlUVYgE/TFtrwUP+4Xw4dzakDIzST8 sVYmlXIWhM5NBBTZSQ190vsxrkbi0xxLcXYM2olZEtqkJ8zONZeZLBeGvcfMymtHqD4jHwYb Zm7OXnS45fWDL+HOoMP/VCwEn098rYfnllIkYQD1Gc28Ig+ywjGg8y5p0qMmmmhm2ckgLjnG MJX8t273MSc8wsn/UYH922yif3MQXmrzqgnRl9hRzf90SKqAw38bw7wccb55pIItloKYsi0r zYBKJSOPXn91Z21TpOSTy21M0MZYEAlDn1zeea+q8TggfHNWxOXoKrIm1pqZFRz0k+8i2siJ AHf8bRm/fhukA6szZ6b2nNPxjkAmOv9zvGu6RZGbmeLvQYVBSSnZ67ayZrkKwn7KIyAV6hQM /bVnD8eEZ2tZ0S8lxoZFYSNeMGt2b6WelFZO97/LbjxaJUHd9K8g5H0MwqN1NXoBxRwllVRC 3sVHVoWTBqnKo8qplzvQEAto69PpvuxxKTOFEJeQqmn1b/fo3sLRb4YiIg8Ax+Np7Huzzjk6 vKKgpIwIN7yEUj/ReWi/UA/W4wSg3XkcqTf7h73crnN/1At0PdgozbDV2UbcApaldStP4DfG UiQl0/7MiYLKapDDuSahmoeH3xrNnrzS9BAfuGHezzDbMyPLXQARAQABzSpHdXJzaGFiYWQg R3JvdmVyIDxndXJzaGFiYWRAY2lzLWluZGlhLm9yZz7CwX0EEwEIACcFAlriroICGyMFCQlm AYAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQrbl/X+ubfC7/bQ//YQv7zqQE433xxsN/ 3GYKoOFccBy3WvV4DxrTskJ3n3k5lfcZolbc8TQksQOTzyerNt2ZA7fsGZa7eFSW+xR4Yq3/ C9o+5FOoHGhyZhb+x17MILhmyvyUNSj7SdKrRISgurMbV2Vv8LxmTcdrK6CdFF6JLH+opzU1 NlRKwZqROPgbYZEB2QFIUbGfgh2I5AXNyV2XbT7fagfkHk+v9AUV7POP2H1+AZ1xq6iFTm2o 9ufNZsp2bInsDohcVBKC3aH2cnFMjvIXpNoUOx8vb5A2xW0aBUTTJDB/uZw53WOg3kehrCNb ZkML3FnDZLRuu1e8DSWmwk5YIoDzt5bMCgfUwb0C6Q+JuM8lC+8CEEa9qamLc+fhvFAzcrWp VWuSaVeLdhe5NxmtlRYNZdGuKy6sRHjwsEWlwzRylhm74fiDR3aA1eIFsfmYLd4z+i1Fp23Y dHJf7/Gor2CmOxphog9DEA9WCuORXfx4De7hoMKwW4gWKw1A8B12Cv4EOkXmCsWsOnfDEarr 2Yl6elxkhQRfKjAesXb0cezRzZgwsWIsbeYsuWFF7Xi6IzUJ27lxU3p5PcyY8O8aDYOn+pu0 YFJ7s3u2VRRgptVZJmkcN3WTApXSHY8fGl5xAakM/bqFJj9uj5zlMnFN2EplC6/mQkfYfy2f siaGTP/GQV4OSuOeuMLOwU0EWuKuggEQAJ4lAzB72gHw4+rbyxmQNNVmvgYVZPjFtO/MQdYi x1QwRP/gxxqPqTd/ZwQvmPGzXRKw10B7uKSRk6YP12+IG0mXJwHGp9q5CWJE0XNGqX3UWbAc KIzxqPNpsf8e6Bv7jdW0YwLBxJ+RW0NNL6uAxz0sr2frbnS+EZB3cU+zOZzp/9YfTUZO2lxF NzgJoErKe/HLp7aBeJXBBcwO0LQlIT80rTZx2KihBa/Ww/y9E9gV/HacJu/Ncb6E/G3e4xGj 9w9L+UW43q01wy+FSUKy9FLc7D40WqQsj8SXZEpl84SyLcJRoX3mtj59bX2SAN2VB2BAksTu qCh00IcIUGfyHziu5PwUWYM96gOhDSocP4wSeiQ8TwLzaffllz2qhdI296a9lCIYIeWVytEd NU9jJ3RbzXAgE0pnDauNXDaQv1FS5jYi8rlslJUxKnrS69BFNjM5RqQ16Cm0C4rKL7/a8wHC r4VjcjSCM8Lzv8YOOitJ9Yt4Y8SVfO5s3YvxcdSr56nX0W3B1kGbG1GpqWTzOgXzGF5bIsbV 7SPecwUs9ShvmLmZzDUxIQ68n4zj3lMZn5I+pP+Ew6nAAiuSmKdr5cygnCH/NVJzil07t+X4 uR6oKHBhuMFYF1c6Wxk36m+EZz5ZHFaT4rN0WDIJdAEqRzD0Z56V6ansDF8y+ksh0SHlABEB AAHCwWUEGAEIAA8FAlriroICGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQrbl/X+ubfC50rhAAloTaq/fZC1gtiVtU wOB+00gEkjgmzt+rLkW+l2EySTST7tje57W83UZwzCX746B2O//Bqardxz9R1Vr0VFiwHA8g 3qeBqPqiv1WoQch/iZ5d/1MxK4A9xDag1uyqLR8RuGlZ8lATmcP3IabKiuiBV4MlFZ7V2Ib6 5ToPf28xxSyjMzTjQObIG0e009uHlu2z+iQVshLyoyVVAOWWa88D6iuBDC/EtBRjlpjLAjuR YhWVYX6KHdVUijKMHN2RqjpX5O2wPL7NcMY/wsTq7EteUeI75hxFvargRXkEt1XR8t52LC0u IE2OjpzY5re/ROUbfsqL8trjAOrSJ+Fx5H8AYl9JaoVxohhxDZgNtgNtPbh/8Nnlf9daj/bh lZcTBO98XLQwMnyHGPdyhIodpWPq2C09Ys3TkQsbcdMMB1pqnEK5Vz1zIKkEEX7QVsLdrz7C 2CFsauc/9PHj+4njCHslXtzBOiVu5FXTnbCwPrLJs5iEUkUCb6qtE/2mSCTrAanzOTTOmqiM cnNTI1Tj0ht462S9VypppQnKCv8shGxXG7BadZTv+pNCA/WfB2kk1sS3ZwB0wBWX4p41fxs+ ArM9ew2SzQ/vBrEfO7ljPfZZmBqH4t/vgAZBnOtTxCGlPEIJqiMqtGHRqIqpiR20QfxEUuXI MfMfa9QJpisdNmqoUyc= Message-ID: <5393ff32-03c3-6044-03dd-f57b6988fb70@cis-india.org> Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 23:14:14 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BgXVU5GXZTgOh4udg3b0VghS2V3YQAxBK" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 8e265eef8f0fc304958dab2a1981a682 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:44:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --BgXVU5GXZTgOh4udg3b0VghS2V3YQAxBK Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="RA4R5oCkM0eLBAjfJ0FYvpNXWLz1fbWk1"; protected-headers="v1" From: Gurshabad Grover To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <5393ff32-03c3-6044-03dd-f57b6988fb70@cis-india.org> Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> --RA4R5oCkM0eLBAjfJ0FYvpNXWLz1fbWk1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FEAD7CECDD4E1F1BB2596A87" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FEAD7CECDD4E1F1BB2596A87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thursday 04 October 2018 02:01 PM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > =C2=A0 > Here, what you are saying is: this technology has good uses, but since = it could also have bad ones, we object to it. > =C2=A0 > I do not think I said that. What I did say was that even if we agree that nation states have legitimate interest in censoring some domain names, the verification code extension is NOT a good way to achieve that because (i) it allows much more than domain name censorship; (ii) it is a method of filteringrather than post-facto take-down. On both counts, I find it to be a disproportionate method to ensure "the right to cultural and legal sovereignty of that country's citizens" (to borrow your words).Essentially, in my opinion, it produces more negative effects than positive ones. To limit myself to the scope of free speech issues here, it is easy to conceive a massive chilling effect arising from the imposition of such a filtering mechanism. If you lived in such a regime, would you be comfortable registering a politically controversial domain name even though it might be perfectly legal? Would you take the chance or self-censor? Earlier you wrote: > =C2=A0 > More specifically, if the national government or policy verification au= thority used the proposed EPP extension to block the registration of lets= -kill-all-the-jews.cctld or child-pornography-for-everyone.cctld, is it c= ensoring the Internet, or is it just doing its job on behalf of its citiz= ens?=20 > I disagree with your examples here. The first one could be a forum to ridicule antisemitism, the second one could point to a satirical website, etc.. Speech is contextual, and there is a rich history of irony, sarcasm and satire being caught in the fire of censorship. To take a recent example from India, the website 'dowrycalculator.com' was brought to attention to the Minister of Women & Child Development. The Minister expressed publicly that she found it to be an instance of the website owner abetting the practice of dowry (which is a crime in India) by providing a handy "dowry calculator". However, anyone with a minuscule sense of humour would easily notice that the website is satirical and pokes fun at families continuing to practice the social evil. What happens when you separate the domain name from its context? So, I tend to favour restraint when it comes to overbearing censorship mechanisms.In my reading, international human rights law is on the same side. Most recently, for example, the UN Special Rapporteur on freedom of expression highlighted as a general principle [1] that: Content filtering systems which are imposed by a government and which are not end-user controlled are not justifiable as a restriction on freedom of expression. And I hope that you agree with that as well. Thank you. Gurshabad [1] Joint declaration on freedom of expression and =E2=80=9Cfake news=E2=80= =9D, disinformation and propaganda --------------FEAD7CECDD4E1F1BB2596A87 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thursday 04 October 2018 02:01 PM, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
=C2=A0 
Here, what you are saying is: this technology has go=
od uses, but since it could also have bad ones, we object to it.
=C2=A0

I do not think I said that. What I did say was that even if we agree that nation states have legitimate interest in censoring some domain names, the verification code extension is NOT a good way to achieve that because (i) it allows much more than domain name censorship; (ii) it is a method of filter= ing rather than post-facto take-down. On both counts, I find it to be a disproportionate method to ensure "the right to cultural and legal sovereignty of that country's citizens" (to borrow your words). Essentially, in my opinion, it produces more negative effects than positive ones.

To limit myself to the scope of free speech issues here, it is easy to conceive a massive chilling effect arising from the imposition of such a filtering mechanism. If you lived in such a regime, would you be comfortable registering a politically controversial domain name even though it might be perfectly legal? Would you take the chance or self-censor?

Earlier you wrote:
=C2=A0 
More specifically, if the national government or pol=
icy verification authority used the proposed EPP extension to block the r=
egistration of lets-kill-all-the-jews.cctld or child-pornography-for-ever=
yone.cctld, is it censoring the Internet, or is it just doing its job on =
behalf of its citizens?=20

I disagree with your examples here. The first one could be a forum to ridicule antisemitism, the second one could point to a satirical website, etc.. Speech is contextual, and there is a rich history of irony, sarcasm and satire being caught in the fire of censorship.

To take a recent example from India, the website 'dowrycalculator.com' was brought to attention to the Minister of Women & Child Development. The Minister expressed publicly that she found it to be an instance of the website owner abetting the practice of dowry (which is a crime in India) by providing a handy "dowry calculator". However, anyone with a minuscule sense of humour would easily notice that the website is satirical and pokes fun at families continuing to practice the social evil. What happens when you separate the domain name from its context?

So, I tend to favour restraint when it comes to overbearing censorship mechanisms. In my reading, international human rights law is on the same side. Most recently, for example, the UN Special Rapporteur on freedom of expression highlighted as a general principle [1] that:
Content filtering systems which are imposed by a government and which are not end-user controlled are not justifiable as a restriction on freedom of expression.
And I hope that you agree with that as well.

 Thank you.
 Gurshabad

[1] Joint declaration on freedom of expression and =E2=80=9C= fake news=E2=80=9D, disinformation and propaganda <https://www.osce.org/fom/302796>


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I had this same discussion but reversed, on the DNSOP group, >regarding DNS-over-HTTPS, which, as a primary and explicit use, has >the circumvention both of security filters deployed by ISPs and of >content filters deployed by States through laws and court orders >that require the ISPs to implement them. This circumvention may harm >the users and even be plainly illegal in many countries, but I was >told: sure, but we cannot stop a new standard because it "could" >have illegal uses, as any technology could be used in bad ways. > >Here, what you are saying is: this technology has good uses, but >since it could also have bad ones, we object to it. > >So I am pretty confused - the only common point among the two >positions seems to be that in both cases, as a shared cultural >value, the IETF doesn't like national sovereignty. One of the WG participants asked for information [1] about "some of these legal requirements". One of the examples given was of a registrar operator in France. According to the WG participant, the reply conflicted with information provided by the registrar operator. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/regext/current/msg01782.html From nobody Thu Oct 4 11:38:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF0A12426A; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:38:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verisign.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HvMB9RPompw4; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.verisign.com (mail3.verisign.com [72.13.63.32]) 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cmVndWxhdGlvbiB0aGF0IG1hZGUgdGhpcyBvYmxpZ2F0b3J5LiBJdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBncmVhdCBp ZiB5b3UgY291bGQgbGluaw0KPiB0byBuYXRpb25hbCBsYXdzIG9yIHJlZ3VsYXRpb25zIHRoYXQg d291bGQgZGVtYW5kIGEgdGhpcmQgcGFydHkgaWRlbnRpdHkNCj4gdmVyaWZpY2F0aW9uLg0KDQpI ZXJlJ3Mgb25lIGV4YW1wbGUgb2YgYSByZWd1bGF0aW9uIHRoYXQgY291bGQgYmUgbWV0IHVzaW5n IHRoZSBhcHByb2FjaA0KZGVzY3JpYmVkIGluIHRoZSBkcmFmdDoNCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZWNm ci5nb3YvY2dpLWJpbi90ZXh0LWlkeD9TSUQ9ZDYxMWQ3ZDRiZDhmMzE1NWQzMjYyZWE0ODU3YzAx MWUmbWM9dHJ1ZSZub2RlPXB0NDEuMy4xMDJfNjE3MyZyZ249ZGl2NQ0KDQpUaGUgZHJhZnQgZG9l cyBub3QgdXNlIHRlcm1zIGxpa2UgIm9ibGlnYXRvcnkiIG9yICJkZW1hbmQiLiBBcyBpdCBzYXlz IGluIHRoZQ0KSW50cm9kdWN0aW9uLCAiQSBsb2NhbGl0eSBNQVkgLi4uIi4NCg0KU2NvdHQNCg== From nobody Thu Oct 4 11:53:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D7C12777C; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:53:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com 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c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4LR22+yqrH+ZADldr6sUnluuB1KB3fBoY8SyGmXwh/4=; b=rDiuknyWvEsaHnlNFYUBuq+8N226UymCW3GmhCYtTzERRrxFz3szOWix5sFh/qIJA+ a0kMeM21MCAZe9xZdLkZTACePA0WvjBWTW0rYP5OE2WeU9Y3cvAiZ0si8okRA0T+Dn9p HyqCQ0VGBpEwKKmTmLWJWfDhYtZoLe0Mzy/fgBsXIfjYiDZLdmQW/Jrn99oFavFpuV7u gtyD44Pp0rFXHhFZ/Z+duovQ9rJ/DqsH5Xj9AgPhdtkP9uCJ5BMKDyT0b/jtkxR1Wdst 8qxoemkuTgri2SDBwaW+0SAfWenP2x9cuv2jhvB1W2AFBhVdjxMuT9uQeRW3YcaGbA/q cU2g== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohKOTilUjOXWOniNaZ3i0MRCDXAYiK9GpqDqjY45Lzzq37X/hrX c1x7Ob8UjyBCsLkG83+U0K+XGonDaksI8OkiEudf9HIym5s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV60VERMBxZUtptFeC3J2DAZa37GWOTWTQ35KldLu57HsGkwHqOhlwSOjLkdBshB3IJdSoIfjNSzSkW4AELUxZZ4= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:d48d:: with SMTP id u13-v6mr6451159qvh.165.1538679181847; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:53:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Steve Song Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:52:49 -0300 Message-ID: To: gaia Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000eb50b05776baa2c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:53:06 -0000 --0000000000000eb50b05776baa2c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Mallory, Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in terms of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic historian, Fernand Braudel. Braudel argues that the world has three economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the Local Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional capital to make it work. This is the world of the informal economy with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by traditional statistics. And woven among these are both commercial and commons models, which can operate with varying success at the different levels. When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the Local and Subsistence economies. For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's Access Gap model . It is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible outcomes. Writing more about this shortly. Cheers... Steve On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel wrote: > Hi Steve, > > Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it. I > think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that > could be another post in and of itself. > > The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a > sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and > profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to > call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to > socialist, and even (back to) the commons! > > I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have raised > issues of centralisation on the list in the past. > > -Mallory > > On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre > > infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about > > everywhere). > > > > https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ > > > > Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other reactions > > you may have. > > > > Thanks.... Steve Song > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gaia mailing list > > gaia@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > -- > Mallory Knodel > Head of Digital :: article19.org > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > -- +1 902 529 0046 stevesong@nsrc.org http://nsrc.org --0000000000000eb50b05776baa2c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mallory,

Thanks for= that!=C2=A0 I think you are on exactly the right track in terms of thinkin= g about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks to Erick Huerta of Rhizomatica, I am = very taken with the thinking of French economic historian, Fernand Braudel.= =C2=A0 Braudel argues that the world has three economies not one.=C2=A0 A g= lobal economy which is the well-known capitalist economic model where monop= oly is the perfect end-game in theory for every player.=C2=A0 Google, Colga= te, Coca-Cola, all the usual suspects form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The = second economy is the Local Economy where services are specific to the city= /community where you live.=C2=A0 This might be your local butcher, baker, p= lumbers or even larger service provider which offers services that grow out= of local demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the G= lobal Economy.=C2=A0 The third economy is the Subsistence economy where mar= ket forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional capi= tal to make it work.=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal economy with b= arters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly contribute to the= overall economy but are largely unmeasured by traditional statistics.=C2= =A0 And woven among these are both commercial and commons models, which can= operate with varying success at the different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0

When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regul= ation has only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that the= re is a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the= Local and Subsistence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0

For = me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's Access Gap model.=C2=A0It is not so much that the model is wrong, it i= s just one-dimensional; assuming that successful global capitalism is the b= est of all possible outcomes.

Writing more about t= his shortly.

Cheers... Steve

<= /div>

On Thu, 4 Oct 20= 18 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel <ma= llory@article19.org> wrote:
= Hi Steve,

Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it. I
think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that
could be another post in and of itself.

The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a
sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and
profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to
call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to
socialist, and even (back to) the commons!

I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have raised=
issues of centralisation on the list in the past.

-Mallory

On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre
> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about > everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0
>
> https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fib= re-feudalism/
>
> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other reaction= s
> you may have.=C2=A0
>
> Thanks.... Steve Song
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
> gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>


--
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780<= br>
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


--
--0000000000000eb50b05776baa2c-- From nobody Thu Oct 4 18:50:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A29B130DC7 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:50:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id athKY6zT3za5 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls6.std.com [192.74.137.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16EE41292F1 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w951l9nM001336; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:47:12 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w951l7QT031008; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:47:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23478.49819.848846.8971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:47:07 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Niels ten Oever , "Gould\, James" , hr-rt@irtf.org, hrpc@irtf.org, regext@ietf.org, gurshabad@cis-india.org In-Reply-To: <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 01:50:14 -0000 Re: tagging discussion I don't see content tagging as only negative. I could imagine such a facility being used positively such as tagging some content as "child friendly". Which is why my interest in the topic is more in mechanism than policy. One would still have to trust the source of the tag, reputational issues, which remain a largely unsolved problem on the net. For example attempts at attaching reputation to DKIM (et al) which I know was a hope for DKIM. Merely knowing it came from who it claims to have come from is really only half the battle, it might be bona-fide mail from an evil party. It's a potentially huge topic, perhaps it needs a tag! -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Fri Oct 5 00:39:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44298130DE7; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 00:39:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0UBkgaKa92Zq; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 00:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kmx5b.knipp.de (kmx5b.knipp.de [IPv6:2a01:5b0:0:29::6a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA6C3130DDA; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 00:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hp9000.do.knipp.de (hp9000.do.knipp.de [195.253.2.54]) by kmx5b.knipp.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1173000FA; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:39:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [195.253.2.27] (mclane.do.knipp.de [195.253.2.27]) by hp9000.do.knipp.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41D870BD0; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 09:39:12 +0200 (MESZ) To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'lists@digitaldissidents.org'" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" Cc: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> From: Klaus Malorny Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 09:39:01 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:64.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/64.0a1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: kmx5b.knipp.de X-Rspamd-Server: s671 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: AF1173000FA X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.00 / 15.00]; IP_WHITELIST(0.00)[195.253.2.54]; NEURAL_HAM(-0.00)[-0.123,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8391, ipnet:195.253.0.0/16, country:DE] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 07:39:20 -0000 On 04.10.18 14:26, Hollenbeck, Scott wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: regext On Behalf Of Niels ten Oever >> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 9:42 AM >> To: Gould, James >> Cc: hr-rt@irtf.org; hrpc@irtf.org; regext@ietf.org; gurshabad@cis- >> india.org >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext- >> verificationcode >> >> Hi James, >> >> On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 01:14:10PM +0000, Gould, James wrote: >>> Thanks for the review, Gurshabad. I'll consider your feedback in the >> context of technical issues with the draft. The registration of domain >> names in some jurisdictions may be subject to various requirements that >> involve verification by a party other than the registry. >> >> Could you please be so kind to link to some of these legal requirements? > > There are several examples of registry operators that require verification as part of their domain registration process. Here are a few ccTLD examples: > > https://www.denic.de/en/faqs/faqs-for-domain-applicants/#faq-19 > Hi Scott, sorry to say that, but for DENIC, this is not correct. Of course, the registrar is obliged to provide a valid registrant address, but there is no mandatory, automated pre- nor post-validation of it in the DENIC registration process. Only in case of a complaint of a third party (for an obvious "Mickey Mouse" or incomplete address), DENIC requests the registrar to provide a correct address. The link you provided refers to the case that the domain is involved in a lawsuit. It is a requirement that has been changed in the context of the EU GDPR and has actually been relaxed compared to the previous requirements. Regards, Klaus From nobody Fri Oct 5 01:20:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09779130DE8; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 01:20:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XHcGxN6RQ5rV; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 01:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42111130DC6; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 01:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g8LLF-0006hk-At; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 10:20:11 +0200 To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" Cc: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> <298864300d064f669a79ab84a942c3e3@verisign.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lists@digitaldissidents.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 10:20:08 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <298864300d064f669a79ab84a942c3e3@verisign.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 10fb2eeb1e6a32429c7ce102d6ec6cdf Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 08:20:17 -0000 On 10/04/2018 08:34 PM, Hollenbeck, Scott wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Niels ten Oever >> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2018 8:36 AM >> To: Hollenbeck, Scott ; >> 'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org' >> >> Cc: 'hr-rt@irtf.org' ; 'hrpc@irtf.org' ; >> 'regext@ietf.org' ; 'gurshabad@cis-india.org' >> >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext- >> verificationcode >> >> Hi Scott, >> >> On 10/04/2018 02:26 PM, Hollenbeck, Scott wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: regext On Behalf Of Niels ten Oever >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 9:42 AM >>>> To: Gould, James >>>> Cc: hr-rt@irtf.org; hrpc@irtf.org; regext@ietf.org; gurshabad@cis- >>>> india.org >>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [regext] Human Rights Review of >>>> draft-ietf-regext- verificationcode >>>> >>>> Hi James, >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 01:14:10PM +0000, Gould, James wrote: >>>>> Thanks for the review, Gurshabad. I'll consider your feedback in the >>>> context of technical issues with the draft. The registration of >>>> domain names in some jurisdictions may be subject to various >>>> requirements that involve verification by a party other than the >> registry. >>>> >>>> Could you please be so kind to link to some of these legal >> requirements? >>> >>> There are several examples of registry operators that require >> verification as part of their domain registration process. Here are a few >> ccTLD examples: >>> >>> https://www.denic.de/en/faqs/faqs-for-domain-applicants/#faq-19 >>> >>> https://www.nic.fr/en/resources/faq/general-faq/ >>> (Look for the "I am a private individual; am I entitled to file a >>> domain name under the .fr or .re TLD?" and "I represent a French or >>> foreign company / association / national or international institution; >>> what are my rights with regard to filing a domain name under the TLDs >>> operated by AFNIC ?" questions under "Choosing a domain name".) >>> >>> https://www.about.us/policies/ustld-nexus-requirements >>> >>> Any one of these registries could use the verification code approach if >> it were available. >>> >> >> Thanks for your reply. I interviewed the people from Denic and Nic.fr and >> they explicitly told me they would not use external verification, but >> rather do this is in house. So I am not sure how they would use this >> extension. > > They are examples of requirements for verification. With the use of > verification codes as described in the draft, clients (registrars or > registrants) have a choice of verification providers (VSPs) to perform > verification in a way that protects the privacy of the data. Choosing between > in-house verification or external verification is an architectural decision, > and this helps make the latter option possible. > >>> In addition, Section 3.7.2 of the 2013 ICANN Registrar Accreditation >> Agreement (RAA) says, "Registrar shall abide by applicable laws and >> governmental regulations". >>> >> >> I have reviewed several legal framework but did not find laws or >> regulation that made this obligatory. It would be great if you could link >> to national laws or regulations that would demand a third party identity >> verification. > > Here's one example of a regulation that could be met using the approach > described in the draft: > > https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=d611d7d4bd8f3155d3262ea4857c011e&mc=true&node=pt41.3.102_6173&rgn=div5 > > The draft does not use terms like "obligatory" or "demand". As it says in the > Introduction, "A locality MAY ...". > If there is only one instance in which this MAY be useful, perhaps there is no need for standardization of this extension? Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Oct 5 03:49:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F7D130E69; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 03:49:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=denic.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sSEYIIt9ymzt; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 03:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.denic.de (mx1.denic.de [81.91.161.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04024130E51; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 03:49:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at spamav-1.osl.denic.de Received: from denic.de (mx.denic.de) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.denic.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76C60196; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 12:48:57 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 mx1.denic.de 76C60196 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=denic.de; s=mail; t=1538736570; bh=8TNPRMD9QTrFEJTP0bX6QXQ+rdWdp+fGLW4fMLt11O4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:Sender:From:Sender:To:CC: Subject:Message-Id:Date; b=a6M+hiQD1hVWdftZQ6A5+r9BCC8WeS6pNiveM60zVJA5vMzmqGdZ3+t/6qqEryUoJ /eBLtXdQecPhBERpapq5F4snQHITDVOMQdN0vPRt2UNAjjJl4SqKPmVhgpyfH6yDZt No9Rxw53g7dxuavyzbXX1hWCUY2kdResFG6zjCzQRxHdWWHbXxseqHUP44xLcrBrZs moPGtNMByUQUhPLNcYolUiKZQjECn2OaUpFjy8PfmkpIJuKxPIWfaeQJcEJGtrRP6C +LE5keHea+hdZsFjRkYZAtvg+yVhoODylcwQM6Rl9pcvRItgavOwQpXRhmadrgD11d 3yKpM6hZC7Jfg== Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 12:48:57 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" Cc: "'lists@digitaldissidents.org'" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" , "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" Message-ID: <20181005104857.GH40672@x11672.adm.denic.de> Mail-Followup-To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'lists@digitaldissidents.org'" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" , "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) Sender: Peter Koch Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 10:49:41 -0000 Scott, all, On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 12:26:25PM +0000, Hollenbeck, Scott wrote: > > context of technical issues with the draft. The registration of domain > > names in some jurisdictions may be subject to various requirements that > > involve verification by a party other than the registry. > > > > Could you please be so kind to link to some of these legal requirements? > > There are several examples of registry operators that require verification as part of their domain registration process. Here are a few ccTLD examples: > > https://www.denic.de/en/faqs/faqs-for-domain-applicants/#faq-19 while in fact we do have some requirements - as laid out in this FAQ snippet, none of those involve third party validation, let alone at registration time. [...] > Any one of these registries could use the verification code approach if it were available. Technically speaking, we do not use EPP, so we cannot serve as an example. Conceptually, since no ex-ante validation is involved, this extension would not be of interest for us. > In addition, Section 3.7.2 of the 2013 ICANN Registrar Accreditation Agreement (RAA) says, "Registrar shall abide by applicable laws and governmental regulations". I'm not sure how this would help make the case. It doesn't need ICANN nor the RAA to bind registrars to applicable law and regulation. In the opposite direction, I don't think that each and every "local" requirement (automatically) has to result in a standardized extension. I do think, though, that this WG - and the IESG - might want to be extra careful regarding the boundaries between protocol and policy. -Peter From nobody Fri Oct 5 04:15:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F836130E44; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 04:15:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verisign.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o68_fRpZ2UY4; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 04:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.verisign.com (mail4.verisign.com [69.58.187.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28BA7130E0C; 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Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:14:55 -0400 Received: from BRN1WNEX02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([fe80::7c0a:1cc:5def:9dde]) by BRN1WNEX02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([fe80::7c0a:1cc:5def:9dde%4]) with mapi id 15.01.1531.003; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:14:55 -0400 From: "Hollenbeck, Scott" To: "'lists@digitaldissidents.org'" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" CC: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode Thread-Index: AQHUWxr5hyC056QopEWFVA23IQF5HKUNyqSAgAE2IjCAAEmNAIAAIQvAgAEp7gD//+w80A== Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 11:14:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> <298864300d064f669a79ab84a942c3e3@verisign.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.170.148.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 11:15:02 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBOaWVscyB0ZW4gT2V2ZXIgPGxp c3RzQGRpZ2l0YWxkaXNzaWRlbnRzLm9yZz4NCj4gU2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBPY3RvYmVyIDA1LCAy MDE4IDQ6MjAgQU0NCj4gVG86IEhvbGxlbmJlY2ssIFNjb3R0IDxzaG9sbGVuYmVja0B2ZXJpc2ln bi5jb20+Ow0KPiAnamdvdWxkPTQwdmVyaXNpZ24uY29tQGRtYXJjLmlldGYub3JnJw0KPiA8amdv dWxkPTQwdmVyaXNpZ24uY29tQGRtYXJjLmlldGYub3JnPg0KPiBDYzogJ2hyLXJ0QGlydGYub3Jn JyA8aHItcnRAaXJ0Zi5vcmc+OyAnaHJwY0BpcnRmLm9yZycgPGhycGNAaXJ0Zi5vcmc+Ow0KPiAn cmVnZXh0QGlldGYub3JnJyA8cmVnZXh0QGlldGYub3JnPjsgJ2d1cnNoYWJhZEBjaXMtaW5kaWEu b3JnJw0KPiA8Z3Vyc2hhYmFkQGNpcy1pbmRpYS5vcmc+DQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFtFWFRFUk5BTF0g UmU6IFtyZWdleHRdIEh1bWFuIFJpZ2h0cyBSZXZpZXcgb2YgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1yZWdleHQtDQo+ IHZlcmlmaWNhdGlvbmNvZGUNCj4NCj4gT24gMTAvMDQvMjAxOCAwODozNCBQTSwgSG9sbGVuYmVj aywgU2NvdHQgd3JvdGU6DQoNCltzbmlwXQ0KDQo+ID4gSGVyZSdzIG9uZSBleGFtcGxlIG9mIGEg cmVndWxhdGlvbiB0aGF0IGNvdWxkIGJlIG1ldCB1c2luZyB0aGUNCj4gPiBhcHByb2FjaCBkZXNj cmliZWQgaW4gdGhlIGRyYWZ0Og0KPiA+DQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZWNmci5nb3YvY2dpLWJp bi90ZXh0LWlkeD9TSUQ9ZDYxMWQ3ZDRiZDhmMzE1NWQzMjYyZWE0ODU3Yw0KPiA+IDAxMWUmbWM9 dHJ1ZSZub2RlPXB0NDEuMy4xMDJfNjE3MyZyZ249ZGl2NQ0KPiA+DQo+ID4gVGhlIGRyYWZ0IGRv ZXMgbm90IHVzZSB0ZXJtcyBsaWtlICJvYmxpZ2F0b3J5IiBvciAiZGVtYW5kIi4gQXMgaXQgc2F5 cw0KPiA+IGluIHRoZSBJbnRyb2R1Y3Rpb24sICJBIGxvY2FsaXR5IE1BWSAuLi4iLg0KPiA+DQo+ DQo+IElmIHRoZXJlIGlzIG9ubHkgb25lIGluc3RhbmNlIGluIHdoaWNoIHRoaXMgTUFZIGJlIHVz ZWZ1bCwgcGVyaGFwcyB0aGVyZQ0KPiBpcyBubyBuZWVkIGZvciBzdGFuZGFyZGl6YXRpb24gb2Yg dGhpcyBleHRlbnNpb24/DQoNCklmIHRoZXJlIGlzIGF0IGxlYXN0IG9uZSBleGFtcGxlLCB0aGVy ZSBpcyBhIGRlbW9uc3RyYXRpb24gb2YgZXhpc3RlbmNlIG9mIHV0aWxpdHkuDQoNClNjb3R0DQo= From nobody Fri Oct 5 04:56:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DD7130E1D; 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Fri, 5 Oct 2018 11:55:28 GMT To: Niels ten Oever , "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" Cc: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> <298864300d064f669a79ab84a942c3e3@verisign.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: <7fefaa46-1ed5-7965-3b0a-64827ce66ee5@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 13:55:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.110.225, dhcp-10-61-110-225.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 11:55:53 -0000 I take no position on the HR issues of this draft.  However: > If there is only one instance in which this MAY be useful, perhaps there > is no need for standardization of this extension? > Not the way we do business.  We ask this question on the front end of the process, not the back end.  That is a simple matter of fairness.  Also, the form of rhetoric here is a bit disturbing.  When someone comes up with one example, it should not be assumed that there is in fact but one use (conversely one need not assume that there is more than one use, but as per above it is irrelevant). 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2018 07:56:32 -0400 Received: from BRN1WNEX02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([fe80::7c0a:1cc:5def:9dde]) by BRN1WNEX02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([fe80::7c0a:1cc:5def:9dde%4]) with mapi id 15.01.1531.003; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:56:32 -0400 From: "Hollenbeck, Scott" To: "'Klaus.Malorny@knipp.de'" , "'lists@digitaldissidents.org'" , "Gould, James" CC: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode Thread-Index: AQHUXH6JpNrSdPnX2UGcYPNXkyJGdaUQiv0A Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 11:56:32 +0000 Message-ID: <7b5aa486a4ff43879c97665fdac78d7c@verisign.com> References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.170.148.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 11:56:38 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBLbGF1cyBNYWxvcm55IDxLbGF1 cy5NYWxvcm55QGtuaXBwLmRlPg0KPiBTZW50OiBGcmlkYXksIE9jdG9iZXIgMDUsIDIwMTggMzoz OSBBTQ0KPiBUbzogSG9sbGVuYmVjaywgU2NvdHQgPHNob2xsZW5iZWNrQHZlcmlzaWduLmNvbT47 DQo+ICdsaXN0c0BkaWdpdGFsZGlzc2lkZW50cy5vcmcnIDxsaXN0c0BkaWdpdGFsZGlzc2lkZW50 cy5vcmc+OyBHb3VsZCwgSmFtZXMNCj4gPGpnb3VsZEB2ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20+DQo+IENjOiAnaHIt cnRAaXJ0Zi5vcmcnIDxoci1ydEBpcnRmLm9yZz47ICdocnBjQGlydGYub3JnJyA8aHJwY0BpcnRm Lm9yZz47DQo+ICdyZWdleHRAaWV0Zi5vcmcnIDxyZWdleHRAaWV0Zi5vcmc+OyAnZ3Vyc2hhYmFk QGNpcy1pbmRpYS5vcmcnDQo+IDxndXJzaGFiYWRAY2lzLWluZGlhLm9yZz4NCj4gU3ViamVjdDog 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hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E44C130E41; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 05:05:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n6hIqd3dmzj9; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 05:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 668DC130E3B; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 05:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g8OrP-0008MU-KG; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 14:05:35 +0200 To: Eliot Lear , "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" Cc: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> <298864300d064f669a79ab84a942c3e3@verisign.com> <7fefaa46-1ed5-7965-3b0a-64827ce66ee5@cisco.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lists@digitaldissidents.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa 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<7fefaa46-1ed5-7965-3b0a-64827ce66ee5@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a2d32f98be707cbcda8602d5fffa976a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 12:05:42 -0000 On 10/05/2018 01:55 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > I take no position on the HR issues of this draft.  However: > > >> If there is only one instance in which this MAY be useful, perhaps there >> is no need for standardization of this extension? >> > > Not the way we do business.  We ask this question on the front end of > the process, not the back end.  Where is this question baked in the process? And where is it said it cannot be asked at a later stage? I did not find this in RFC 2418. All pointers are welcome of course. > That is a simple matter of fairness.  > Also, the form of rhetoric here is a bit disturbing.  Please elaborate? The 'MAY' was brought up by Scott in his previous email. > When someone comes > up with one example, it should not be assumed that there is in fact but > one use (conversely one need not assume that there is more than one use, > but as per above it is irrelevant). > Also see the previous emails, there has been research into different registrars and registries and their practices, that is what we are discussing about. No assumptions are being made. Niels > Eliot > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Oct 5 05:08:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109DD130E2A; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 05:08:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TYlEwivmIezB; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 05:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47032130E41; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 74bd734068bee68206891dc8710ce62a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 12:08:44 -0000 On 10/05/2018 01:14 PM, Hollenbeck, Scott wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Niels ten Oever >> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2018 4:20 AM >> To: Hollenbeck, Scott ; >> 'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org' >> >> Cc: 'hr-rt@irtf.org' ; 'hrpc@irtf.org' ; >> 'regext@ietf.org' ; 'gurshabad@cis-india.org' >> >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext- >> verificationcode >> >> On 10/04/2018 08:34 PM, Hollenbeck, Scott wrote: > > [snip] > >>> Here's one example of a regulation that could be met using the >>> approach described in the draft: >>> >>> https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=d611d7d4bd8f3155d3262ea4857c >>> 011e&mc=true&node=pt41.3.102_6173&rgn=div5 >>> >>> The draft does not use terms like "obligatory" or "demand". As it says >>> in the Introduction, "A locality MAY ...". >>> >> >> If there is only one instance in which this MAY be useful, perhaps there >> is no need for standardization of this extension? > > If there is at least one example, there is a demonstration of existence of utility. > We might disagree here. If there is one place in which this extension might be useful, I am not sure whether standardization is appropriate because there is only one (potential) implementation. That leads me to the question: has this actually been implemented in the case of .gov? Best, Niels > Scott > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Oct 5 05:25:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC05130E10; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 05:25:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verisign.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2F9eyidOsIJR; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 05:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.verisign.com (mail4.verisign.com [69.58.187.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5385130E3B; 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charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 12:48:34 -0000 On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 02:08:38PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote: > We might disagree here. If there is one place in which this extension > might be useful, I am not sure whether standardization is appropriate > because there is only one (potential) implementation. That leads me to > the question: has this actually been implemented in the case of .gov? On the other hand, if people want to standardize some mechanism for a policy you find regrettable, I find it hard to believe that the right answer is "prevent that standard" rather than "don't subject yourself to that policy". The latter is easily achieved by refusing to do business with registries that implement a policy you don't like. The approach that seems to be being pursued here is to try to prevent standardization of the mechanism because of a disagreement about the policy. I think that is generally bad for interoperability. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Fri Oct 5 05:53:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C7F130E45 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 05:53:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4GIIxmENDSIh for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 05:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A139E130E2A for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 05:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DD936A316; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:53:36 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1538744016; bh=k4DdThLOBb5AmVQ0GxKmEMRKRp3wWlV7QicCnVVIFiw=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=HPTRJOsOlEr8eDUB3co+4yjKfvHOBrnhKMNgaTpkANMfJLVpfnWDsWnjD7l/0rxVA G3cVZTAatn2ImYtELDNoU7StjM4XAeoxmhJOYvBy7HXJ4sBmscXzhaG+oLh3RfN9dI +g7M5dJ2/EcFYJEDz1KB/BmY55S/wEwNCuWp8sOT1m97INPKgM/6aIHUAZ8cFjk/QY xyokEibsQpvQYEfOtyrPuy/nSGk3ZRLUQBReTAW5kGXT2CC/7PdXTtSYodYkyhAkuh sMcT8BrBlzLBCxFQo6r+GExBioVPKqIuRqa4jwG6pWGDuFLhgKdR6HbcScOjDx5gU9 u+Edga1IV+bPA== Received: from null (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7EDE23C05CC; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:53:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:53:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <230618909.21501.1538744016449@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <47a54979-25a0-7dab-4f90-48f862b75a35@article19.org> References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <47a54979-25a0-7dab-4f90-48f862b75a35@article19.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev17 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 12:53:40 -0000 > Il 4 ottobre 2018 alle 10.49 Amelia Andersdotter h= a scritto: >=20 >=20 > On 2018-10-04 10:31, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > =C2=A0 > > So I am pretty confused - the only common point among the two positions= seems to be that in both cases, as a shared cultural value, the IETF doesn= 't like national sovereignty. >=20 > Although I must object to the idea that a telecommunications operator's > network could be construed as a sovereign nation (we can discuss some > time!). No, I rather meant real countries having sovereignty on what any company / = computer located under their jurisdiction does, or even, if you take the GD= PR model, on any service provided to their citizens anywhere in the world. > I think it's wrong to cast DoH in the same light as the VPECC review: 1) > there is a DoH review project ongoing in HRPC review team, 2) public > interest aspects of DoH are being discussed because of its potential, in > particular, to reduce the available options for users with respect to > provider at no clear data management benefit to the users. That's the privacy (and competition) aspect of the issue, yes. There is als= o a big security issue, as the proliferation of "stupid" devices on home ne= tworks, i.e. IoT and smart TVs, where you are unable to run antiviruses and= to update the software, makes traffic filtering at the network access prov= ider level the only viable barrier to stop the spreading of botnets and mal= ware. But another part of it is really about the fact that DNS resolution f= or consumers is currently the most common content control point of the Inte= rnet, and thus DoH, if used in the way that Mozilla plans to do, would cent= ralize that control in very few hands, commercial and private, under a sing= le jurisdiction. This does look like a human rights risk to me; also, since= some people seem to think that circumventing content filters set up by nat= ional governments is a good thing, let me stress that there is no place on = the Internet which is not subject to (at least) one jurisdiction, so at mos= t you get to change which government should be empowered with that control. Regards, --=20 Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Fri Oct 5 06:01:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF148130E42; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 06:01:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8u7Z5od_3sql; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 06:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A922130E2A; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 06:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g8Pjc-0006yx-2m; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 15:01:36 +0200 To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" , "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> <298864300d064f669a79ab84a942c3e3@verisign.com> <20181005124829.4m3ydloqinhhz3dg@mx4.yitter.info> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lists@digitaldissidents.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <63453d99-38ce-aa50-2be9-ed5f056c1284@digitaldissidents.org> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:01:35 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181005124829.4m3ydloqinhhz3dg@mx4.yitter.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 76f3589a93270604ea078d468a2051b3 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 13:01:41 -0000 On 10/05/2018 02:48 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 02:08:38PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote: > >> We might disagree here. If there is one place in which this extension >> might be useful, I am not sure whether standardization is appropriate >> because there is only one (potential) implementation. That leads me to >> the question: has this actually been implemented in the case of .gov? > > On the other hand, if people want to standardize some mechanism for a > policy you find regrettable, I find it hard to believe that the right > answer is "prevent that standard" rather than "don't subject yourself > to that policy". The latter is easily achieved by refusing to do > business with registries that implement a policy you don't like. The > approach that seems to be being pursued here is to try to prevent > standardization of the mechanism because of a disagreement about the > policy. I think that is generally bad for interoperability. > If this would be a standard in response to a demand, that would be fine. But I am rather afraid this is a standard that will create policy and practice. Namely the practice of 3rd party identity verification providers. Since there is legislation that demand this afaik, I think we should be hesitant to standardize such a thing because of the potentially severe implications as pointed out by the review. Best, Niels -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Oct 5 06:40:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DA4130DEB for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 06:40:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gsu27ax5Fv0O for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 06:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0949130DC6 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 06:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4E826A29E; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:40:06 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1538746806; bh=joNA7uOicuq82UmnXpLBKXiOt930GPCE7mbDkwIAwN4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=WZyOX+yII44K3Ea3JHsiINQVn1CoqptuhgPk8UPx9+UVHXG7wLON4tATji0rDljIq 1KQqwO/NWyxukhOsoA4HB7t0+VR9tudWvIz0/R1EEuobuVCWfP+zDMJkY3lgjJTlBd 8b8HhIaKmkKhnCVKxsYomA1thOqQ/AqtgCg48dVisovmhIHr9ojOEuQmqn99ywuJh3 0B2rqRSp1UmopjfV5p6p9osVhr3iGvUTeJqmEE7Bd3IzibHWYaABWh679D3MMCuIir mZ2IFCcDE2DRZnPDCSMi5L1aVfnciPFTLtJ+TQkSgwb5xXgipCQs8cxAtjTzuOpham U6RMRD2djxDGA== Received: from null (appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 930BB3C05CC; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:40:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:40:06 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Gurshabad Grover Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <602812054.21828.1538746806546@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <5393ff32-03c3-6044-03dd-f57b6988fb70@cis-india.org> References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <5393ff32-03c3-6044-03dd-f57b6988fb70@cis-india.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev17 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 13:40:11 -0000 > Il 4 ottobre 2018 alle 19.44 Gurshabad Grover h= a scritto:=20 > =20 > I disagree with your examples here. The first one could be a forum t= o ridicule antisemitism, the second one could point to a satirical website,= etc.. Speech is contextual, and there is a rich history of irony, sarcasm = and satire being caught in the fire of censorship.=20 Ok, I understand your counter-example, it makes sense (actually a few weeks= ago I was banned from Facebook for three days for posting a parody of the = racist-populist followers of the current government of my country, as the a= lgorithm failed to tell it from actual hate speech, and just noticed the te= rms being used; even if the GDPR says that you have the right to have a hum= an review that decision, that took Facebook several weeks, so that in the e= nd my post was restored when the ban had long expired). =C2=A0 But still, there are other counter-counter-examples that one can make. Paro= dy, for example, is often being used as an excuse for fake news and hate in= citing websites - they say "hey, we're just joking, it's satire" to avert l= egal consequences, but social networks are full of stupid people that just = believe them. Some of these websites use phishing-style domain names, such = as "larefubblica.it" and "ilfattoquotidaino.it" ("larepubblica.it" and "ilf= attoquotidiano.it" are two major newspapers in Italy) - some people post th= e headline and link on social networks and many others fail to notice the d= ifference and believe it comes from a trusted source. If a government wants= to stop this kind of domains from being registered, can you blame them? Is= the government harming free expression or actually protecting democracy an= d the public debate? =C2=A0 (Ironically, the most famous "parody" website in Italy posting horrible stu= ff was called "nocensura.org", that is "no censorship". It was finally seiz= ed by police after posting hundreds of completely fake news like: - "Roma person runs over someone with a car and flees" - "Four Tunisians rape a wife and kill the husband with clubs" - "Catania: kid burned alive by Muslim immigrants because he was Christian" Each of these articles was shared tens of thousands of times and incited ra= cism throughout the entire country. In the end, it turns out that the site = was run by a 20-year-old student from Sicily that claimed that it was just = satire and that he was just doing it for the advertising money. Though I co= ncur that in this case the domain name was not the point.) =C2=A0 By the way, then you have actual phishing registrations, stuff like "paypa1= .cctld". So there are all sorts of reasonable reasons for the preliminary v= etting of domain names which do not relate to free expression. (Though I ha= ve to note that we are now having a speculative discussion on whether there= could be good reasons to pre-vet domain names before registration, which i= s independent from the parallel discussion on whether anyone is actually al= ready doing this or whether the proposed extension would be useful for thes= e use cases.) =C2=A0 > So, I tend to favour restraint when it comes to overbearing censorship me= chanisms . In my reading, international human rights law is on the same si= de. Most recently, for example, the UN Special Rapporteur on freedom of exp= ression highlighted as a general principle [1] that:=20 >=20 > > Content filtering systems which are imposed by a government and which a= re not end-user controlled are not justifiable as a restriction on freedom = of expression.=20 > > =20 > And I hope that you agree with that as well.=20 No, absolutely, I totally disagree. As Popper's paradox of tolerance says, = to preserve tolerance you have to be intolerant with the intolerant. What t= he sentence above means is that there cannot be any limit posed by law to c= ontent on the Internet, not even "ex post" after that the content has been = published and reviewed through due legal process, and I really don't think = that this would bring forth a positive future.=20 For example, in Europe we have been having for decades widely supported law= s that forbid hate speech and the apology of totalitarian regimes. How are = European governments supposed to enforce those laws over the Internet if th= ey cannot take down websites or at least make them unreachable to their cit= izens? And isn't this harming the right of each country and people to decid= e what is good for them? And is there any way to implement this right over = a global network, other than with content filters that vary by the country = of the user? =C2=A0 Regards, --=20 Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com=20 Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Fri Oct 5 07:19:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADFCA12F1AB; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:19:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9wFhjHhfkbBe; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E820812DD85; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:19:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3909; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1538749166; x=1539958766; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=sQ8cyigUU4Dd8Ts5kVxQpX0+EoQSzZgqRWbSHNH2E8w=; b=OOz3iyl5Njx2xatcxD/rIO4jnP2ORuPBVNgPITK5MnbyNkvBW84Pe9cT cgAWzlHQNgs5BfTOCopShpUGCJhBU0GR+r9SHOUsJmDxn1oEGHZuIamUE CfWOqk/r2YWsnmBP0EWcu3Snlp7LGcfrRlZpfpQhIbHj6pXYMWAe0lRu+ I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BTAAATcbdb/xbLJq1jGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAQGBZYNZEoQciHSNLyWRHlyEeIFmDYRsAoRNOBYBAwEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAm0ohTkBAQEBAgEjVgULCwQUKgICVwYBDAgBAYMdgXoIpD+BLh+JdItIggC?= =?us-ascii?q?BOQyCX4RLARIBgyCCVwKIOpUoCY4jgh0GF4FMhGWCZyaGNpVmgVkhZHEzGgg?= =?us-ascii?q?bFYMogiUXjho9jD6CPgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.54,344,1534809600"; d="scan'208,217";a="7021378" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 05 Oct 2018 14:18:22 +0000 Received: from [10.61.110.225] (dhcp-10-61-110-225.cisco.com [10.61.110.225]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w95EIL9C013212; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:18:21 GMT To: Niels ten Oever , "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" Cc: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> <298864300d064f669a79ab84a942c3e3@verisign.com> <7fefaa46-1ed5-7965-3b0a-64827ce66ee5@cisco.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: <7e2e03f1-0663-0cfd-7aac-955dcc382f01@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:18:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------08BC0E63156CDC368112E5C0" Content-Language: en-US X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.110.225, dhcp-10-61-110-225.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 14:19:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------08BC0E63156CDC368112E5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 05.10.18 14:05, Niels ten Oever wrote: > On 10/05/2018 01:55 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> I take no position on the HR issues of this draft.  However: >> >> >>> If there is only one instance in which this MAY be useful, perhaps there >>> is no need for standardization of this extension? >>> >> Not the way we do business.  We ask this question on the front end of >> the process, not the back end.  > Where is this question baked in the process As a matter of practice (e.g., running code), it is asked at the time of working group adoption, and it *sh**ould* be a gating factor for technical specifications.  That is- no working group is likely to adopt work they think is not going to get implemented or deployed, as that is a waste of the IETF's resources. And in general it comes along with questions like, “Do people think this is a good idea?  Has anyone read the draft?  Are people willing to review the work?  etc.” > Please elaborate? The 'MAY' was brought up by Scott in his previous email. He gave *an* example.  You implied then that it was the only use case.  That's not reasonable.  And there's reason to assume that this is not the case, (a) because of the above and (b)  because someone is being paid to do work in this space in this direction, and that person works at a domain registration company. Eliot ** --------------08BC0E63156CDC368112E5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 05.10.18 14:05, Niels ten Oever wrote:
On 10/05/2018 01:55 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:

I take no position on the HR issues of this draft.  However:



If there is only one instance in which this MAY be useful, perhaps there
is no need for standardization of this extension?


Not the way we do business.  We ask this question on the front end of
the process, not the back end.  

Where is this question baked in the process


As a matter of practice (e.g., running code), it is asked at the time of working group adoption, and it should be a gating factor for technical specifications.  That is- no working group is likely to adopt work they think is not going to get implemented or deployed, as that is a waste of the IETF's resources. And in general it comes along with questions like, “Do people think this is a good idea?  Has anyone read the draft?  Are people willing to review the work?  etc.”

Please elaborate? The 'MAY' was brought up by Scott in his previous email.

He gave an example.  You implied then that it was the only use case.  That's not reasonable.  And there's reason to assume that this is not the case, (a) because of the above and (b)  because someone is being paid to do work in this space in this direction, and that person works at a domain registration company.

Eliot

--------------08BC0E63156CDC368112E5C0-- From nobody Fri Oct 5 07:21:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4B4124C04; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:21:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.957 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.957 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.456, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JouRfw1hsOrB; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37535128CF3; 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05 Oct 2018 14:21:29 +0000 Received: from [10.61.110.225] (dhcp-10-61-110-225.cisco.com [10.61.110.225]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w95ELR3o018993; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:21:27 GMT To: Niels ten Oever , "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" Cc: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> <298864300d064f669a79ab84a942c3e3@verisign.com> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: <37cac938-439f-ee2e-a2a0-91d6659e5a88@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:21:26 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.110.225, dhcp-10-61-110-225.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 14:21:34 -0000 On 05.10.18 14:08, Niels ten Oever wrote: > We might disagree here. If there is one place in which this extension > might be useful, I am not sure whether standardization is appropriate > because there is only one (potential) implementation. Again, not required (albeit desirable).  RFC 2026 states this: >    Usually, neither implementation nor operational experience is >    required for the designation of a specification as a Proposed >    Standard.  However, such experience is highly desirable, and will >    usually represent a strong argument in favor of a Proposed Standard >    designation. Eliot From nobody Fri Oct 5 15:15:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 367A1128B14; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:15:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jB_Su6dTUF-B; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8C1B128766; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g8YNn-0006kL-Lu; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 00:15:39 +0200 To: Eliot Lear , "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" Cc: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" , "'gurshabad@cis-india.org'" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> <298864300d064f669a79ab84a942c3e3@verisign.com> <7fefaa46-1ed5-7965-3b0a-64827ce66ee5@cisco.com> <7e2e03f1-0663-0cfd-7aac-955dcc382f01@cisco.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lists@digitaldissidents.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 00:15:38 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7e2e03f1-0663-0cfd-7aac-955dcc382f01@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a8ecdd0179e5342c74548fafd5461917 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 22:15:45 -0000 On 10/05/2018 04:18 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: <> > He gave *an* example. There were several examples mentioned earlier, all of which turned out not be planning to implement 3rd party verification. > You implied then that it was the only use case. No other has been mentioned to date. So am curious whether there rly is a big appetite from others for interoperating with this. I am a bit surprised that asking for use cases is a contentious question to some. -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Oct 5 23:01:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F4FF130DCE for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 23:01:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BdJkdyVsKpgt for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 23:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BD89130DCC for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 23:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g8fe7-0002Rc-NX; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 08:00:59 +0200 To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <5393ff32-03c3-6044-03dd-f57b6988fb70@cis-india.org> <602812054.21828.1538746806546@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Gurshabad Grover Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=gurshabad@cis-india.org; keydata= xsFNBFriroIBEADfyDpCD8eborMUMXKtZzjo4t2KzrAlUVYgE/TFtrwUP+4Xw4dzakDIzST8 sVYmlXIWhM5NBBTZSQ190vsxrkbi0xxLcXYM2olZEtqkJ8zONZeZLBeGvcfMymtHqD4jHwYb Zm7OXnS45fWDL+HOoMP/VCwEn098rYfnllIkYQD1Gc28Ig+ywjGg8y5p0qMmmmhm2ckgLjnG MJX8t273MSc8wsn/UYH922yif3MQXmrzqgnRl9hRzf90SKqAw38bw7wccb55pIItloKYsi0r zYBKJSOPXn91Z21TpOSTy21M0MZYEAlDn1zeea+q8TggfHNWxOXoKrIm1pqZFRz0k+8i2siJ AHf8bRm/fhukA6szZ6b2nNPxjkAmOv9zvGu6RZGbmeLvQYVBSSnZ67ayZrkKwn7KIyAV6hQM /bVnD8eEZ2tZ0S8lxoZFYSNeMGt2b6WelFZO97/LbjxaJUHd9K8g5H0MwqN1NXoBxRwllVRC 3sVHVoWTBqnKo8qplzvQEAto69PpvuxxKTOFEJeQqmn1b/fo3sLRb4YiIg8Ax+Np7Huzzjk6 vKKgpIwIN7yEUj/ReWi/UA/W4wSg3XkcqTf7h73crnN/1At0PdgozbDV2UbcApaldStP4DfG UiQl0/7MiYLKapDDuSahmoeH3xrNnrzS9BAfuGHezzDbMyPLXQARAQABzSpHdXJzaGFiYWQg R3JvdmVyIDxndXJzaGFiYWRAY2lzLWluZGlhLm9yZz7CwX0EEwEIACcFAlriroICGyMFCQlm AYAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQrbl/X+ubfC7/bQ//YQv7zqQE433xxsN/ 3GYKoOFccBy3WvV4DxrTskJ3n3k5lfcZolbc8TQksQOTzyerNt2ZA7fsGZa7eFSW+xR4Yq3/ C9o+5FOoHGhyZhb+x17MILhmyvyUNSj7SdKrRISgurMbV2Vv8LxmTcdrK6CdFF6JLH+opzU1 NlRKwZqROPgbYZEB2QFIUbGfgh2I5AXNyV2XbT7fagfkHk+v9AUV7POP2H1+AZ1xq6iFTm2o 9ufNZsp2bInsDohcVBKC3aH2cnFMjvIXpNoUOx8vb5A2xW0aBUTTJDB/uZw53WOg3kehrCNb ZkML3FnDZLRuu1e8DSWmwk5YIoDzt5bMCgfUwb0C6Q+JuM8lC+8CEEa9qamLc+fhvFAzcrWp VWuSaVeLdhe5NxmtlRYNZdGuKy6sRHjwsEWlwzRylhm74fiDR3aA1eIFsfmYLd4z+i1Fp23Y dHJf7/Gor2CmOxphog9DEA9WCuORXfx4De7hoMKwW4gWKw1A8B12Cv4EOkXmCsWsOnfDEarr 2Yl6elxkhQRfKjAesXb0cezRzZgwsWIsbeYsuWFF7Xi6IzUJ27lxU3p5PcyY8O8aDYOn+pu0 YFJ7s3u2VRRgptVZJmkcN3WTApXSHY8fGl5xAakM/bqFJj9uj5zlMnFN2EplC6/mQkfYfy2f siaGTP/GQV4OSuOeuMLOwU0EWuKuggEQAJ4lAzB72gHw4+rbyxmQNNVmvgYVZPjFtO/MQdYi x1QwRP/gxxqPqTd/ZwQvmPGzXRKw10B7uKSRk6YP12+IG0mXJwHGp9q5CWJE0XNGqX3UWbAc KIzxqPNpsf8e6Bv7jdW0YwLBxJ+RW0NNL6uAxz0sr2frbnS+EZB3cU+zOZzp/9YfTUZO2lxF NzgJoErKe/HLp7aBeJXBBcwO0LQlIT80rTZx2KihBa/Ww/y9E9gV/HacJu/Ncb6E/G3e4xGj 9w9L+UW43q01wy+FSUKy9FLc7D40WqQsj8SXZEpl84SyLcJRoX3mtj59bX2SAN2VB2BAksTu qCh00IcIUGfyHziu5PwUWYM96gOhDSocP4wSeiQ8TwLzaffllz2qhdI296a9lCIYIeWVytEd NU9jJ3RbzXAgE0pnDauNXDaQv1FS5jYi8rlslJUxKnrS69BFNjM5RqQ16Cm0C4rKL7/a8wHC r4VjcjSCM8Lzv8YOOitJ9Yt4Y8SVfO5s3YvxcdSr56nX0W3B1kGbG1GpqWTzOgXzGF5bIsbV 7SPecwUs9ShvmLmZzDUxIQ68n4zj3lMZn5I+pP+Ew6nAAiuSmKdr5cygnCH/NVJzil07t+X4 uR6oKHBhuMFYF1c6Wxk36m+EZz5ZHFaT4rN0WDIJdAEqRzD0Z56V6ansDF8y+ksh0SHlABEB AAHCwWUEGAEIAA8FAlriroICGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQrbl/X+ubfC50rhAAloTaq/fZC1gtiVtU wOB+00gEkjgmzt+rLkW+l2EySTST7tje57W83UZwzCX746B2O//Bqardxz9R1Vr0VFiwHA8g 3qeBqPqiv1WoQch/iZ5d/1MxK4A9xDag1uyqLR8RuGlZ8lATmcP3IabKiuiBV4MlFZ7V2Ib6 5ToPf28xxSyjMzTjQObIG0e009uHlu2z+iQVshLyoyVVAOWWa88D6iuBDC/EtBRjlpjLAjuR YhWVYX6KHdVUijKMHN2RqjpX5O2wPL7NcMY/wsTq7EteUeI75hxFvargRXkEt1XR8t52LC0u IE2OjpzY5re/ROUbfsqL8trjAOrSJ+Fx5H8AYl9JaoVxohhxDZgNtgNtPbh/8Nnlf9daj/bh lZcTBO98XLQwMnyHGPdyhIodpWPq2C09Ys3TkQsbcdMMB1pqnEK5Vz1zIKkEEX7QVsLdrz7C 2CFsauc/9PHj+4njCHslXtzBOiVu5FXTnbCwPrLJs5iEUkUCb6qtE/2mSCTrAanzOTTOmqiM cnNTI1Tj0ht462S9VypppQnKCv8shGxXG7BadZTv+pNCA/WfB2kk1sS3ZwB0wBWX4p41fxs+ ArM9ew2SzQ/vBrEfO7ljPfZZmBqH4t/vgAZBnOtTxCGlPEIJqiMqtGHRqIqpiR20QfxEUuXI MfMfa9QJpisdNmqoUyc= Message-ID: <4047028c-4ea8-c63d-2f80-e7729694686a@cis-india.org> Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 11:30:55 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <602812054.21828.1538746806546@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GFCbarg6Tm664vmOoNgo0RZJLF5bnq37i" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 1a05470216d0106dc91b6ca0d322f745 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2018 06:01:06 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --GFCbarg6Tm664vmOoNgo0RZJLF5bnq37i Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="cCC4cS0y7V3uFS2Hf8i4kQMaWa9cGQc48"; protected-headers="v1" From: Gurshabad Grover To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <4047028c-4ea8-c63d-2f80-e7729694686a@cis-india.org> Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <5393ff32-03c3-6044-03dd-f57b6988fb70@cis-india.org> <602812054.21828.1538746806546@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <602812054.21828.1538746806546@appsuite.open-xchange.com> --cCC4cS0y7V3uFS2Hf8i4kQMaWa9cGQc48 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B6798C2EFCA740037CF6EE3B" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B6798C2EFCA740037CF6EE3B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday 05 October 2018 07:10 PM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > Ok, I understand your counter-example, it makes sense =C2=A0 Great. > =C2=A0 >> So, I tend to favour restraint when it comes to overbearing censorship= mechanisms . In my reading, international human rights law is on the sa= me side. Most recently, for example, the UN Special Rapporteur on freedom= of expression highlighted as a general principle [1] that:=20 >> >>> Content filtering systems which are imposed by a government and which= are not end-user controlled are not justifiable as a restriction on free= dom of expression.=20 >>> =20 >> And I hope that you agree with that as well.=20 > No, absolutely, I totally disagree. As Popper's paradox of tolerance sa= ys, to preserve tolerance you have to be intolerant with the intolerant. = What the sentence above means is that there cannot be any limit posed by = law to content on the Internet, not even "ex post" after that the content= has been published and reviewed through due legal process, and I really = don't think that this would bring forth a positive future.=20 > > I am not sure how you arrived at your interpretation. The statement is specifically about /ex ante/ _filtering_; the sentence does not mean that there "cannot be any limit posed by law to content on the Internet". In fact, the report also gives guidelines on how content censorship should take place when it needs to. --------------B6798C2EFCA740037CF6EE3B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Friday 05 October 2018 07:10 PM= , Vittorio Bertola wrote:

 
Ok, I understand your counter-example, it makes sens=
e =C2=A0

Great.

=C2=A0

So, I tend to favour restraint when it comes to ov=
erbearing censorship mechanisms .  In my reading, international human rig=
hts law is on the same side. Most recently, for example, the UN Special R=
apporteur on freedom of expression highlighted as a general principle [1]=
 that:=20


Content filtering systems which are imposed by a=
 government and which are not end-user controlled are not justifiable as =
a restriction on freedom of expression.=20
=20

And I hope that you agree with that as well.=20

No, absolutely, I totally disagree. As Popper's paradox of tolerance says=
, to preserve tolerance you have to be intolerant with the intolerant. Wh=
at the sentence above means is that there cannot be any limit posed by la=
w to content on the Internet, not even "ex post" after that the content h=
as been published and reviewed through due legal process, and I really do=
n't think that this would bring forth a positive future.=20

I am not sure how you arrived at your interpretation. The statement is specifically about ex ante _filtering_; the sentence does not mean that there "cannot be any limit posed by law to content on the Internet". In fact, the report also gives guidelines on how content censorship should take place when it needs to.
 --------------B6798C2EFCA740037CF6EE3B-- --cCC4cS0y7V3uFS2Hf8i4kQMaWa9cGQc48-- --GFCbarg6Tm664vmOoNgo0RZJLF5bnq37i Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJbuE+YAAoJEK25f1/rm3wulckQAN362utM2CxlZtSulbyoSBtL qCpt3tDD3U8wMt1Ne3eWKBKrX0zuVjgyE7cG5MqpFk9N3wX1ROxy+NS/3f30sIoV LggNnBjOVknVT7MV2SO2nfKU/Sj8zf17ZVHzrKoRT0r3umHKSCSTJs7pIHZIhK0h gFAdWU5BtilWyCmDpWDBwFRdJe+pgRKEhUj/y2PpHB485aXooHGOqHaLpPJjpdRD 6SVUNM9vi68NDMT+FUITq/NVKtKdGmo5uewFs0mX7W6uP5RqJYpTcJwvAFaE9/WM 59pM/uOCgVAdHVwbRsv36QKl+PakjPZvFxohY/buDeP0quqTTRDxRNwEhhHZPYNc zZFKlxINIqt4pNfY9m4rdH459f92HIsda+kdRnHjb2eGIS+6lnI7ko7uPW/rOYad bug+X9lATL4p28E5xCi8skF9/au+WIR3qcbOeBHvwFwSAAa+YVS3r02Mlf6KwAqn CtwCKvqxqbmt6yPb4CklodH6oEBjd+R5h32WbJrDHcjwcprz6/a8bBR1G8MKsSmH cEYMixHELRP0ZqtLOp0g1wmaYCdg8aFGDDUixO+Wv5sbjjIzMCrDWn95ua1X+Dxw lKZhsWzmUSmP01u3nCNgaL3Vzb7YX1Qs/itIOl6N1ug/BoD8DIc9ZHOWhwQrQJxF fBVRexGLW2Ro0Pq2B7W9 =oDTS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GFCbarg6Tm664vmOoNgo0RZJLF5bnq37i-- From nobody Sat Oct 6 05:02:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510D2130DE1 for ; Sat, 6 Oct 2018 05:02:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y7ZIekvJmKwm for ; Sat, 6 Oct 2018 05:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic313-16.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic313-16.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.185.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A63A130DC2 for ; Sat, 6 Oct 2018 05:02:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1538827319; bh=N5RTlfMrFcY4KYB9ZknlZdyZ9Bq7r3T86jsjak3HiHU=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=g6eJ93bnuZRLv1RrfbsRMPsb1ndLRd4ZFM4HUR2jJSMdPDLdPIjrHt1UydLg+z8stDbNrDN/YBVtC03Kp2lHqwQLrDmQZKRLVYKRRHhDUiaZEdPFrxPLorJERH+lnPYxgap0b3wR8oRLdYqERCOcob21XWbzJYzgJsQ5d1NqfhYlT0bBhgWnGRi3NlSaS3+I2cqk6KM8wLy2+TyfZ5oz4xihsy+ejboZ6w8E9vNdiYnyaqz6JXCbjnMP7AHJKdznIQH0oAsYnBq0y+vCa55Z084fs9l3dfee/JtpxzXKsJnMnFdGgtv1YKO4g/xzlYSNEcnGgSENXxVASfpSHrDTrQ== X-YMail-OSG: k_X7X00VM1lksM1YFdAzgJOr47yob1gi1xGWDKgRGodKlN0lUDExr.PuFo0lyPT wEM2IgJMNiw.GTpl6ShA.BMhB4g4abi2mN4IYVvYxtiJMONFvM.f.HsnXvu2hMk7qfjn5XNHc4hY Vs7wzxQ5aKHzrGgHOtzj6TqydRZaRJZXJ4vzOp5WJJW98yJh29yY0UH1Ul5lYls.DB_WmR50lzDi X2wnopZUtJysG9NvwhISw189oUggEE5oefO6Qn4YrgRODNdKjAechgetGBthaqG3b2i1KmoV4ADW iHIlnxqK2dntOmqkgvlGZaXIdwUjDykbeB1Z3LjkyhSQG4YyHY2DfEgBBxxj8wDSdIQaHlvrop1N nsM1pyAzhr5TNtDcOeH85xZJj_3Ti75CDuhbh_miA_7LnjX1TD1Efn53pq0VENdd8RCYoGNTX.6w 04yCDXnf8z_rRPOH5AIbHRaINowYFR53D9fGDInbDMkrnOzS11RQh4gYMw7ckWl1ziXhv8UFLsUW FeaFnNdts_QzUcQfkSC0gntOwbFEeukKlQzk1i1aeW9IhMfoZcmhZS3vsTxRH5EyicfEYmOxAEF2 OE2tTFE78tGul3pb2E9g48H939.nokNeaZ6VYIy4WwufcZgUoWc99QG4XZFjcu_kUG3z5bU2IATZ kEgCzYzgGpKXQyPOZshH7wwFzVBQ7Zhx2Tgc0vj1LKKE8u1b1TaCSaRybBVsTbWpFbkDVfnomd0n tN8NMAJ6RLU_IBZ7Sc_hSiI_B7c5eqAoxd.jKeVOckvVVcPea4wfT3KBWasPkytjWm0FOQYesavv 0WRpWp9NjbVPN48p8vVWXfpdC.IbVhQN2HyXHtEut5sqiWFm8EbLnX0_9SRgB1pRlDA4i5Vs7Yo5 7ENWh_1K.kqkpHC8CZKkCf9cLzU9Pw4PHiWFceJ_OQLCviH3gX.MJVIU05.Dl7DRHeI4cm.qHPzu aaZRyw30INxIVGyDw30XgrnZJrUMQQzUjE7KXs2Qzx1picbOFUCJNgPTrLahFn6q106sLmmlJoq0 736oqZjcpZjnX7j6EIV3RxB3.EkoBknpX26eb1xKvkwm8oGbuG.upxP2pmA7l97D. Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 6 Oct 2018 12:01:59 +0000 Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 12:01:57 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Gurshabad Grover , Vittorio Bertola Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <739463736.147922.1538827317361@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <4047028c-4ea8-c63d-2f80-e7729694686a@cis-india.org> References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <5393ff32-03c3-6044-03dd-f57b6988fb70@cis-india.org> <602812054.21828.1538746806546@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <4047028c-4ea8-c63d-2f80-e7729694686a@cis-india.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_147921_713824746.1538827317359" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12512 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2018 12:02:05 -0000 ------=_Part_147921_713824746.1538827317359 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gurshabad, >I am not sure how you arrived at your interpretation. The statement is spe= cifically about=C2=A0ex ante=C2=A0_filtering_; the sentence does not mean t= hat there "cannot be any limit posed by law to >content on the Internet". I= n fact, the report also gives guidelines on how content censorship should t= ake place when it needs to. I am working with Vittorio and Barry S. on a draft discussing problems in t= his area.=C2=A0 I am very interested in citing relevant work that has been = done in the past as well as working with other agencies / bodies who have a= n interest in this area. I wanted to read the report that you were citing.=C2=A0 Is it to be found a= t this link? https://www.osce.org/fom/302796?download=3Dtrue If not, then might you send me a link to the report? On another note, I will be in India soon, I will write to you unicast priva= tely to see if you have time to talk about this issue f2f if we are anywher= e in the same area.=C2=A0 I am assuming you are in India. =C2=A0 Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 ------=_Part_147921_713824746.1538827317359 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gurshabad,

>I am not sure how you arrived at your int= erpretation. The statement is specifically about ex ante _filteri= ng_; the sentence does not mean that there "cannot be any limit posed by la= w to >content on the Internet". In fact, the report also gives guideline= s on how content censorship should take place when it needs to.


=
I am working with Vittori= o and Barry S. on a draft discussing problems in this area.  I am very= interested in citing relevant work that has been done in the past as well = as working with other agencies / bodies who have an interest in this area.<= /div>

I wanted to read the report that yo= u were citing.  Is it to be found at this link?

https:/= /www.osce.org/fom/302796?download=3Dtrue

If not, then might you send me a link to the report?

On another note, I will b= e in India soon, I will write to you unicast privately to see if you have t= ime to talk about this issue f2f if we are anywhere in the same area. = I am assuming you are in India.
 
Thanks,
Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insid= ethestack.com
(831) 659-8360
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Mon, 08 Oct 2018 19:56:50 +0200 From: Gurshabad Grover To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'lists@digitaldissidents.org'" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" Cc: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> <298864300d064f669a79ab84a942c3e3@verisign.com> Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=gurshabad@cis-india.org; keydata= xsFNBFriroIBEADfyDpCD8eborMUMXKtZzjo4t2KzrAlUVYgE/TFtrwUP+4Xw4dzakDIzST8 sVYmlXIWhM5NBBTZSQ190vsxrkbi0xxLcXYM2olZEtqkJ8zONZeZLBeGvcfMymtHqD4jHwYb Zm7OXnS45fWDL+HOoMP/VCwEn098rYfnllIkYQD1Gc28Ig+ywjGg8y5p0qMmmmhm2ckgLjnG MJX8t273MSc8wsn/UYH922yif3MQXmrzqgnRl9hRzf90SKqAw38bw7wccb55pIItloKYsi0r zYBKJSOPXn91Z21TpOSTy21M0MZYEAlDn1zeea+q8TggfHNWxOXoKrIm1pqZFRz0k+8i2siJ AHf8bRm/fhukA6szZ6b2nNPxjkAmOv9zvGu6RZGbmeLvQYVBSSnZ67ayZrkKwn7KIyAV6hQM /bVnD8eEZ2tZ0S8lxoZFYSNeMGt2b6WelFZO97/LbjxaJUHd9K8g5H0MwqN1NXoBxRwllVRC 3sVHVoWTBqnKo8qplzvQEAto69PpvuxxKTOFEJeQqmn1b/fo3sLRb4YiIg8Ax+Np7Huzzjk6 vKKgpIwIN7yEUj/ReWi/UA/W4wSg3XkcqTf7h73crnN/1At0PdgozbDV2UbcApaldStP4DfG UiQl0/7MiYLKapDDuSahmoeH3xrNnrzS9BAfuGHezzDbMyPLXQARAQABzSpHdXJzaGFiYWQg R3JvdmVyIDxndXJzaGFiYWRAY2lzLWluZGlhLm9yZz7CwX0EEwEIACcFAlriroICGyMFCQlm AYAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQrbl/X+ubfC7/bQ//YQv7zqQE433xxsN/ 3GYKoOFccBy3WvV4DxrTskJ3n3k5lfcZolbc8TQksQOTzyerNt2ZA7fsGZa7eFSW+xR4Yq3/ C9o+5FOoHGhyZhb+x17MILhmyvyUNSj7SdKrRISgurMbV2Vv8LxmTcdrK6CdFF6JLH+opzU1 NlRKwZqROPgbYZEB2QFIUbGfgh2I5AXNyV2XbT7fagfkHk+v9AUV7POP2H1+AZ1xq6iFTm2o 9ufNZsp2bInsDohcVBKC3aH2cnFMjvIXpNoUOx8vb5A2xW0aBUTTJDB/uZw53WOg3kehrCNb ZkML3FnDZLRuu1e8DSWmwk5YIoDzt5bMCgfUwb0C6Q+JuM8lC+8CEEa9qamLc+fhvFAzcrWp VWuSaVeLdhe5NxmtlRYNZdGuKy6sRHjwsEWlwzRylhm74fiDR3aA1eIFsfmYLd4z+i1Fp23Y dHJf7/Gor2CmOxphog9DEA9WCuORXfx4De7hoMKwW4gWKw1A8B12Cv4EOkXmCsWsOnfDEarr 2Yl6elxkhQRfKjAesXb0cezRzZgwsWIsbeYsuWFF7Xi6IzUJ27lxU3p5PcyY8O8aDYOn+pu0 YFJ7s3u2VRRgptVZJmkcN3WTApXSHY8fGl5xAakM/bqFJj9uj5zlMnFN2EplC6/mQkfYfy2f siaGTP/GQV4OSuOeuMLOwU0EWuKuggEQAJ4lAzB72gHw4+rbyxmQNNVmvgYVZPjFtO/MQdYi x1QwRP/gxxqPqTd/ZwQvmPGzXRKw10B7uKSRk6YP12+IG0mXJwHGp9q5CWJE0XNGqX3UWbAc KIzxqPNpsf8e6Bv7jdW0YwLBxJ+RW0NNL6uAxz0sr2frbnS+EZB3cU+zOZzp/9YfTUZO2lxF NzgJoErKe/HLp7aBeJXBBcwO0LQlIT80rTZx2KihBa/Ww/y9E9gV/HacJu/Ncb6E/G3e4xGj 9w9L+UW43q01wy+FSUKy9FLc7D40WqQsj8SXZEpl84SyLcJRoX3mtj59bX2SAN2VB2BAksTu qCh00IcIUGfyHziu5PwUWYM96gOhDSocP4wSeiQ8TwLzaffllz2qhdI296a9lCIYIeWVytEd NU9jJ3RbzXAgE0pnDauNXDaQv1FS5jYi8rlslJUxKnrS69BFNjM5RqQ16Cm0C4rKL7/a8wHC r4VjcjSCM8Lzv8YOOitJ9Yt4Y8SVfO5s3YvxcdSr56nX0W3B1kGbG1GpqWTzOgXzGF5bIsbV 7SPecwUs9ShvmLmZzDUxIQ68n4zj3lMZn5I+pP+Ew6nAAiuSmKdr5cygnCH/NVJzil07t+X4 uR6oKHBhuMFYF1c6Wxk36m+EZz5ZHFaT4rN0WDIJdAEqRzD0Z56V6ansDF8y+ksh0SHlABEB AAHCwWUEGAEIAA8FAlriroICGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQrbl/X+ubfC50rhAAloTaq/fZC1gtiVtU wOB+00gEkjgmzt+rLkW+l2EySTST7tje57W83UZwzCX746B2O//Bqardxz9R1Vr0VFiwHA8g 3qeBqPqiv1WoQch/iZ5d/1MxK4A9xDag1uyqLR8RuGlZ8lATmcP3IabKiuiBV4MlFZ7V2Ib6 5ToPf28xxSyjMzTjQObIG0e009uHlu2z+iQVshLyoyVVAOWWa88D6iuBDC/EtBRjlpjLAjuR YhWVYX6KHdVUijKMHN2RqjpX5O2wPL7NcMY/wsTq7EteUeI75hxFvargRXkEt1XR8t52LC0u IE2OjpzY5re/ROUbfsqL8trjAOrSJ+Fx5H8AYl9JaoVxohhxDZgNtgNtPbh/8Nnlf9daj/bh lZcTBO98XLQwMnyHGPdyhIodpWPq2C09Ys3TkQsbcdMMB1pqnEK5Vz1zIKkEEX7QVsLdrz7C 2CFsauc/9PHj+4njCHslXtzBOiVu5FXTnbCwPrLJs5iEUkUCb6qtE/2mSCTrAanzOTTOmqiM cnNTI1Tj0ht462S9VypppQnKCv8shGxXG7BadZTv+pNCA/WfB2kk1sS3ZwB0wBWX4p41fxs+ ArM9ew2SzQ/vBrEfO7ljPfZZmBqH4t/vgAZBnOtTxCGlPEIJqiMqtGHRqIqpiR20QfxEUuXI MfMfa9QJpisdNmqoUyc= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 23:26:45 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fLh16h47GSFY8053xajpibiyfCgTbsYnH" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: dd305f484f1ad876e240bae2a9803cbd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2018 17:57:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --fLh16h47GSFY8053xajpibiyfCgTbsYnH Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="3lTX7bKTRh2kaMK6WNJ5nyAVL8ydq3EGF"; protected-headers="v1" From: Gurshabad Grover To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" , "'lists@digitaldissidents.org'" , "'jgould=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org'" Cc: "'hr-rt@irtf.org'" , "'hrpc@irtf.org'" , "'regext@ietf.org'" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <641561c1e0c94f93b45ff3c0809cea27@verisign.com> <298864300d064f669a79ab84a942c3e3@verisign.com> In-Reply-To: --3lTX7bKTRh2kaMK6WNJ5nyAVL8ydq3EGF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On Friday 05 October 2018 04:44 PM, Hollenbeck, Scott wrote: >> If there is only one instance in which this MAY be useful, perhaps the= re >> is no need for standardization of this extension? > If there is at least one example, there is a demonstration of existence= of utility. > > Scott Thank you, Niels, Scott, Eliot, Adam, Andrew and Peter for bringing this up and discussing this issue. In this particular case, in addition to RFC 2026, we should also look at RFC 3735, 'Guidelines for Extending the Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP)', authored by Scott. It briefly discusses some criteria for which track to choose for different EPP extensions. Most pertinently, it notes that: "the intended maturity level (informational, proposed standard, etc.) largely depends on what is being extended and the amount of general interest in the extension." [1] Additionally, it says: =E2=80=9CExtensions need not be published as Internet-Draft or RFC docume= nts if they are intended for operation in a closed environment or are otherwise intended for a limited audience. In such cases extensions MAY be documented in a file and structural format that is appropriate for the intended audience.=E2=80=9D[1] So, demonstration of utility and interest is an important aspect here (first for whether it should be an I-D/RFC; and if yes, with what status: informational/standard). Thank you. Gurshabad [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3735#section-2.1 --3lTX7bKTRh2kaMK6WNJ5nyAVL8ydq3EGF-- --fLh16h47GSFY8053xajpibiyfCgTbsYnH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJbu5pdAAoJEK25f1/rm3wuBrsP/imLQVhM0Fuu1Vg/t+2+AoV9 fqBh935q8xaQgaKnPk/Vik8dZWvch4uaVnrmcIU0qZkmxFhRKSX3uehqxNvHfV06 vm/ExQBf4qAy3LtCMVjQKWzR1/SU69GF/vbhQqbWkNs2e/jY2pjHwFKvucnOAhTV p39sz+hT5LBgqMCR6cNFiIt8a2yvWgq++37kMO6pjFiV1MumL6K2lV+4ADdTkYkO boyqew5ziaXmBq9fDcU4a61tav1Yi9pAPIIF0iAZgrsYR+lp9ZHLKXbl/mVTtn89 ZjzujdiReO9DWtl4eyGJsuoCyMuz10LgpOVbVQmA61hhObDG48Fcv1K3dh+8IQbg Bgdl9p0K5B4izWfgyWR2FTHrTP984COb7sO/T9I4NZSY6gEvt5P9t1QbasOa7Szs hZvCyVQf6gHHvSgisveppuGDBHs/ztr6D3QHGpunkR8oGZZbzxBCQcBNnkwJ5rCO CRVOe13q88xpqRzZlisa46MwiIJVud3DbFDIniMCoG4hhA75Fn5avsWbI5fMtHsr MA1/l3B54WW2j+S3hukoKN7LY4YKUtgLipFPv3yrF1r48kpb3uYQ5aFtXZa2NS19 LiFTrCHIMFir52KPkL62ISBbHQHUjtEpedrmkF/05jTWu4RxL5xr5ofzcNyFtlOR ihNNO1kWymEMLk/nA1s2 =IMfa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fLh16h47GSFY8053xajpibiyfCgTbsYnH-- From nobody Mon Oct 8 11:01:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F96129C6A for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2018 11:01:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8JhExuLDi7bW for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2018 11:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51147130DDF for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2018 11:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g9ZqM-0002XJ-BY; Mon, 08 Oct 2018 20:01:22 +0200 To: Nalini J Elkins , Vittorio Bertola Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <5393ff32-03c3-6044-03dd-f57b6988fb70@cis-india.org> <602812054.21828.1538746806546@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <4047028c-4ea8-c63d-2f80-e7729694686a@cis-india.org> <739463736.147922.1538827317361@mail.yahoo.com> From: Gurshabad Grover Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=gurshabad@cis-india.org; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <739463736.147922.1538827317361@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ijSNIQoei3gxn9bzwpUhnsyeHnwlvq3ki" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 025acf9a139f050bc01ccdeba87e03e0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2018 18:01:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ijSNIQoei3gxn9bzwpUhnsyeHnwlvq3ki Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AxFzpRJzPNqIyJRqNaJpF2k6hnKn9DAfc"; protected-headers="v1" From: Gurshabad Grover To: Nalini J Elkins , Vittorio Bertola Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <4de5bdc0-0eb1-5edd-8f25-59c254ce6c2c@cis-india.org> Subject: Re: [hrpc] [regext] Human Rights Review of draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode References: <20181003134215.GA23633@mir> <321916997.13308.1538579123709@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <736d11a2-4dc5-a536-4929-cbae97f6d6cc@cis-india.org> <1386608069.16082.1538641873226@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <5393ff32-03c3-6044-03dd-f57b6988fb70@cis-india.org> <602812054.21828.1538746806546@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <4047028c-4ea8-c63d-2f80-e7729694686a@cis-india.org> <739463736.147922.1538827317361@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <739463736.147922.1538827317361@mail.yahoo.com> --AxFzpRJzPNqIyJRqNaJpF2k6hnKn9DAfc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9F9D3EA6955BCCB7B13BA605" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9F9D3EA6955BCCB7B13BA605 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday 06 October 2018 05:31 PM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: > [...] > > I am working with Vittorio and Barry S. on a draft discussing problems > in this area.=C2=A0 I am very interested in citing relevant work that h= as > been done in the past as well as working with other agencies / bodies > who have an interest in this area. > > I wanted to read the report that you were citing.=C2=A0 Is it to be fou= nd > at this link? > > https://www.osce.org/fom/302796?download=3Dtrue > Yes, I was citing this one. Thank you. Gurshabad --------------9F9D3EA6955BCCB7B13BA605 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Saturday 06 October 2018 05:31 PM, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
[...]
I am workin= g with Vittorio and Barry S. on a draft discussing problems in this area.=C2=A0 I am very interested in citing relevant work= that has been done in the past as well as working with other agencies / bodies who have an interest in this area.

I wanted to= read the report that you were citing.=C2=A0 Is it to be found= at this link?

Yes, I was citing this one.

Thank you.
Gurshabad
 --------------9F9D3EA6955BCCB7B13BA605-- --AxFzpRJzPNqIyJRqNaJpF2k6hnKn9DAfc-- --ijSNIQoei3gxn9bzwpUhnsyeHnwlvq3ki Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJbu5tuAAoJEK25f1/rm3wuS9MP/jmUnOJDNgC5kRygORPMw+HZ uqMIL7MzHdNKlB0SSDz2utMtGWAxB6n34W0Szi8Wa9NBSx7Xkej4jkRjGA3Gv+35 uE9U0JQWlxkw5syP0j9Gcq/Lr3bZpy907ktErDx84hAzvPx87B8guJiEg/0fNalk 830tS7IpKAOxF+1RirGMELjlAAt2poC3vIfcTQ2o6gyl0AcE/5xJ17NnxlomBoNc IQX4pdih+801XVys7pnjVbEu2d3JOfTVpIKa4iZpJbiaWmIMRKVMibdKau5iNuNe 1/b4W1wJgzr4O72W4YwZQkQzyJXS6qTbyjTC/e8ieOO5VgHgDa+tKPKRFi5/RYS5 I1AWodd2Ie/PM6OUbpWaCha6osTSLu0xrnMpGi8NiYNeV4xyqKIn1BIBKMnhUk7c OsIn5eDAlnUz524xSQ/UGZCrvfkuEzJuA5Ae+7tgAuksgPfx9lrFup5ve1iW215H C/4uJLzBkYQRgpO+Z7nX+mLnZ2ogalbkzL0VXQoXVIoAJsAIrJ/fwbyIj2p3RT7v 3y0WLt+INeDmcQcydT9HU2PdxdrHIz7okN0OoKDbPlqQf0VD9Bse0MjBdpRW+pFU 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multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_78812_76240648.1539834597440" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12631 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 03:50:08 -0000 ------=_Part_78812_76240648.1539834597440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, We have posted a draft on filtering techniques.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Would appreciat= e comments from the group. A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the IETF repository. Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000 Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Human Rights Considerations of Int= ernet Filtering Document date:=C2=A0 2018-10-17 Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16 URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet= -drafts/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d= raft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/ Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elkin= s-hrpc-ifilter-00 Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d= raft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter Abstract: =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document is a survey of the filtering of content.=C2=A0 T= he focus is =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Declara= tion of =C2=A0 =C2=A0Human Rights" which is one of the foundational documents for H= RPC. =C2=A0 =C2=A0The recent years have seen an increase in content filtering fo= r a =C2=A0 =C2=A0variety of reasons including to further the aims of government= s who =C2=A0 =C2=A0wish to maintain their rule and suppress dissent but also to e= nforce =C2=A0 =C2=A0cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law.=C2= =A0 Filters =C2=A0 =C2=A0also exist for security (botnets, malware etc.), user-defined =C2=A0 =C2=A0policies (parental control, corporate blocking of social netwo= rks =C2=A0 =C2=A0during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyrighted m= aterial =C2=A0 =C2=A0and other reasons. This document is based on several real worl= d =C2=A0 =C2=A0considerations: the existence of national and regional soverei= gnty, =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content Distribution Net= works =C2=A0 =C2=A0(CDNs) that provide connectivity and content hosting services,= Over- =C2=A0 =C2=A0the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that play= a =C2=A0 =C2=A0disproportionate role in capturing the attention and "eyeballs= " of =C2=A0 =C2=A0many of the users of the Internet. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --=20 Thanks,Nalini ElkinsPresidentEnterprise Data Center Operatorswww.e-dco.com =20 ------=_Part_78812_76240648.1539834597440 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

We have posted a draft on filterin= g techniques.   Would appreciate comments from the group.




A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
Revision:       00
Title:          Human Rights Considerations of Int= ernet Filtering
Document date:  2018-10-17
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          16
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter= -00.txt
Status:         ht= tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
Htmlized:       https://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00
Htmlized:       htt= ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter


Abstract:
   This document is a survey of the filtering of content.  T= he focus is
   on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Declara= tion of
   Human Rights" which is one of the foundational documents for H= RPC.
   The recent years have seen an increase in content filtering fo= r a
   variety of reasons including to further the aims of government= s who
   wish to maintain their rule and suppress dissent but also to e= nforce
   cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law. = ; Filters
   also exist for security (botnets, malware etc.), user-defined<= br>    policies (parental control, corporate blocking of social netwo= rks
   during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyrighted m= aterial
   and other reasons. This document is based on several real worl= d
   considerations: the existence of national and regional soverei= gnty,
   Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content Distribution Net= works
   (CDNs) that provide connectivity and content hosting services,= Over-
   the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that play= a
   disproportionate role in capturing the attention and "eyeballs= " of
   many of the users of the Internet.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



--
Thanks,
Nalin= i Elkins
President
Enterprise Data Center Operators



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([2600:8802:5600:1546::100d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z195-v6sm14366536iof.71.2018.10.17.21.50.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Oct 2018 21:50:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D9352E7F-6B6D-435F-879B-BB9F8FA17151"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 21:50:34 -0700 In-Reply-To: <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> Cc: Hrpc , Vittorio Bertola , "bzs@theworld.com" To: Nalini Elkins References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 04:50:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D9352E7F-6B6D-435F-879B-BB9F8FA17151 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Oct 17, 2018, at 8:49 PM, Nalini J Elkins = wrote: > We have posted a draft on filtering techniques. Would appreciate = comments from the group. I guess I might summarize the draft with "we can and do filter content. = The question isn't capability, it is motivation and intent. The Law of = Unexpected Consequences strongly suggests that even intents that appear = completely benign can have negative consequences. And 'not filtering' is = itself a filter that catches nothing, and is subject to the same cast of = unintended consequences." I obviously have not gone to the detail that you have. Apart from that = fact, does my precis lack in accuracy? = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, Defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. Sun Tzu --Apple-Mail=_D9352E7F-6B6D-435F-879B-BB9F8FA17151 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlvIERoACgkQEhdRnd2G P+DyGBAAjv4RS3uEmDZKdBJUkUoid0QBTuaDMT21Lp3OxPBLkXADbMQkhhbNmlIK RSf9462khr9leyFse6IKp+UJ4Y5rj/MkimIpm2oiIFRtcX3D/Z8SvDFyKBKxi/vw t4h1tRDWQIGEgtEFCcq3dWoExppLU3v59P19XG3v4H+Jqe9oN2xqN7/TIOIaGi7l OnJI982Yyn4978PR0qFOwFfAi8nh2XrCZsPXdhohwTbPlwOTJ7PJ6zF0CYNUPQvD cHDIhQBBxSzShF41rdyWcDKwf1dyXlFHBRRfM745wNXorjuDmxIkcB8sdqKPpvR3 N5Oe+A9BcW1Ve9wtDHuruCnNPEwexcDcptm19+n7F/+9DR0TXjc3ycym7A2mK9Oz heLiHEwIrR6Acs5X9llVmtrDA5U6S78hJQQ6jJm1RhhzE4qhtt4AUgEzn5e04UCz NeFZQyzNygBzfE/o45N6AJeUZHnpn9Xsva5XoWx8AuD2MBFJ+jiIkXHCy+mmDEfV /FRHn7m4SZeZXDqTvE3muyLp1p9Gj2dkRPJhqSSoqNgGISy3rZtJqiYQvWNK31MI UF92DRJP3KIfMOtyAGZZ2/g2iIQ3ZnTDuS2sopeBRfgmA8XlnDVfmlE6bZId1RAP ZWY6tRFmiJUzqDCchGxkzFdIrhkK0xVF4OMAaQZ4CGqtp3I2eNM= =IlGw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D9352E7F-6B6D-435F-879B-BB9F8FA17151-- From nobody Wed Oct 17 22:47:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3636B127AC2 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 22:47:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WN-wVZ_oL_pX for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 22:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34F53127598 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2018 22:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C43A6A330; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 07:47:04 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1539841624; bh=ClA/zzfW0wf0wxASwykrtLWPhcECiorgSzO66AwZw94=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=p+5csJwE+xiFtRhH8GzAgBVIQHVW+G6F/WnRFxYvPSvIlpY459vvwqXi7PPqW7+tG sO89JIpiOK/1fvai/brtPY0LErSsYnzcwSo7A2oMOm9gIp94xZLleD7AezYRPMenjs jP+v0vzXqEycF+NhmSgcbzzqDjJ7jwqHnoeBqChCFqndlWtYmoU8+6WsDp4kNSNjEg Q9ERvzqBgcorJv4rIn7FJcEQAExMHKX7UY71UXHzP3c9QYXgUpZUxPzrTeCTwFnoUg id/DKlYgQ/fPjdtf7oeNk/pRE9QGJeR+j84aaX3MUbB8DGzZHUqCB4OZta8Z87pVHU OZJoh9XfGOYjA== Received: from null (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7185A3C1524; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 07:47:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 07:47:03 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Fred Baker , Nalini Elkins Cc: Hrpc , bzs@theworld.com Message-ID: <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13961_672828654.1539841624382" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev18 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 05:47:10 -0000 ------=_Part_13961_672828654.1539841624382 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 18 ottobre 2018 alle 6.50 Fred Baker < fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com > ha scritto: > > > > > On Oct 17, 2018, at 8:49 PM, Nalini J Elkins < nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com mailto:nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com > wrote: > > > > We have posted a draft on filtering techniques. Would appreciate comments from the group. > > > > > I guess I might summarize the draft with "we can and do filter content. The question isn't capability, it is motivation and intent. The Law of Unexpected Consequences strongly suggests that even intents that appear completely benign can have negative consequences. And 'not filtering' is itself a filter that catches nothing, and is subject to the same cast of unintended consequences." > > I obviously have not gone to the detail that you have. Apart from that fact, does my precis lack in accuracy? > The draft attempts to make a comprehensive survey of the forms of content filtering and prioritization that are going on over the Internet, as a starting point for a subsequent discussion on whether and under which conditions these practices should be considered in protocol and architecture design or even addressed by specific technical standards. While usually there is a brief mentioning of the rights that are at stake and of the reasons why the adopters of each of these practices think they are a good idea, this does not mean that the document endorses or condemns any of them - it's just meant to be informational about all the use cases for content filtering, as a (hopefully) non-controversial reference for future discussions. By the way, I found it particularly hard to distinguish between the different sets of actors that manage content hosting and distribution at the core of the network; we had different terms coming and going (over-the-top platforms, content delivery platforms, content delivery networks) to identify those who provide global content-based products and services (Google, Facebook etc) and those who provide the infrastructure to serve it to end users (CDNs plus hosting providers and domain name registr*s). I don't know if there is standard terminology at the I*TF and where - any suggestion is appreciated. Regards, -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_13961_672828654.1539841624382 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 18 ottobre 2018 alle 6.50 Fred Baker < fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> ha scritto:




On Oct 17, 2018, at 8:49 PM, Nalini J Elkins < nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> wrote:
We have posted a draft on filtering techniques. Would appreciate comments from the group.
I guess I might summarize the draft with "we can and do filter content. The question isn't capability, it is motivation and intent. The Law of Unexpected Consequences strongly suggests that even intents that appear completely benign can have negative consequences. And 'not filtering' is itself a filter that catches nothing, and is subject to the same cast of unintended consequences."

I obviously have not gone to the detail that you have. Apart from that fact, does my precis lack in accuracy?
The draft attempts to make a comprehensive survey of the forms of content filtering and prioritization that are going on over the Internet, as a starting point for a subsequent discussion on whether and under which conditions these practices should be considered in protocol and architecture design or even addressed by specific technical standards. While usually there is a brief mentioning of the rights that are at stake and of the reasons why the adopters of each of these practices think they are a good idea, this does not mean that the document endorses or condemns any of them - it's just meant to be informational about all the use cases for content filtering, as a (hopefully) non-controversial reference for future discussions.

By the way, I found it particularly hard to distinguish between the different sets of actors that manage content hosting and distribution at the core of the network; we had different terms coming and going (over-the-top platforms, content delivery platforms, content delivery networks) to identify those who provide global content-based products and services (Google, Facebook etc) and those who provide the infrastructure to serve it to end users (CDNs plus hosting providers and domain name registr*s). I don't know if there is standard terminology at the I*TF and where - any suggestion is appreciated.

Regards,

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
------=_Part_13961_672828654.1539841624382-- From nobody Thu Oct 18 03:14:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056E2130E44 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 03:14:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4WLSU3EZCe7a for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 03:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 392D6130E1D for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 03:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gD5Jr-0002SK-Q2 for hrpc@irtf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 12:14:22 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 12:14:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 9484ae446d4f83cee8bf28db5146d16c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 10:14:27 -0000 On 10/18/2018 07:47 AM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > >> Il 18 ottobre 2018 alle 6.50 Fred Baker < fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com >> > ha scritto: >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 17, 2018, at 8:49 PM, Nalini J Elkins < >> nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com >> > wrote: >>> We have posted a draft on filtering techniques. Would appreciate >>> comments from the group. >> I guess I might summarize the draft with "we can and do filter >> content. The question isn't capability, it is motivation and intent. >> The Law of Unexpected Consequences strongly suggests that even intents >> that appear completely benign can have negative consequences. And 'not >> filtering' is itself a filter that catches nothing, and is subject to >> the same cast of unintended consequences." >> >> I obviously have not gone to the detail that you have. Apart from that >> fact, does my precis lack in accuracy? > The draft attempts to make a comprehensive survey of the forms of > content filtering and prioritization that are going on over the > Internet, as a starting point for a subsequent discussion on whether and > under which conditions these practices should be considered in protocol > and architecture design or even addressed by specific technical > standards. While usually there is a brief mentioning of the rights that > are at stake and of the reasons why the adopters of each of these > practices think they are a good idea, this does not mean that the > document endorses or condemns any of them - it's just meant to be > informational about all the use cases for content filtering, as a > (hopefully) non-controversial reference for future discussions. > > By the way, I found it particularly hard to distinguish between the > different sets of actors that manage content hosting and distribution at > the core of the network; we had different terms coming and going > (over-the-top platforms, content delivery platforms, content delivery > networks) to identify those who provide global content-based products > and services (Google, Facebook etc) and those who provide the > infrastructure to serve it to end users (CDNs plus hosting providers and > domain name registr*s). I don't know if there is standard terminology at > the I*TF and where - any suggestion is appreciated. > There are some serious issues with this draft. The draft does not differentiate WHO makes the filtering decision, based on WHAT evidence and/or process, WHERE it is enacted, HOW that is done, and WHERE people can seek recourse. In this sense this document is not a survey. Next to that the document does not reflect whatsoever on when or where filtering is legitimate within which framework. There is a mention of the UDHR and 'legislation', but there is no actual use of human rights frameworks. In this sense this document does not offer human rights considerations. There is also a mix up between European Commission, the European Parliament, the European Union and the Council of Europe. All of which are relevant, but all of whom are also different :) If the authors want to engage with legal frameworks vis a vis filtering, this might be a useful resource: https://www.article19.org/data/files/medialibrary/38586/Blocking_and_filtering_final.pdf Cheers, Niels > Regards, > > -- > > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Thu Oct 18 07:26:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839E8124BE5 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 07:26:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LtKRo1NJr6ds for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 07:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic314-26.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic314-26.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.189.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BEB0120072 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 07:26:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1539872796; bh=JdaAYRCSLma/OJXpI5+WEhK8qWuXLxWdTRyz3kkWtqM=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=UjFQunNL5SnHHFuUrwcbnlmEUB9ORBHw0ivJW0nr4guRJM4Z0XSdV4pXYiPP+Ep5Mz+KOMvAODk7UrfR7owWOruWvH92r/O9o0ryKrS2amWv5qZh0ePSJICgfdJapzIOVcjZm7EqVwJW3M6vQ995kBYyjG/8QpYa3QsY4Hq8qPzA6iQKaoWZMeVSagWneEGRAcATQp/4TgCfE3j4meJGBsRbUkATTqzOYCGw26zitDhxcRQQcClT3hQZI1BIrDVic6+ZcBD6Yej971T5Rxs3Otlpy9pcDQRdIrHVca0JVFfhXGQoroY/4kSLoDP7hdET1F7a71JXUnjsCAmAmDeefw== X-YMail-OSG: bqGvj3cVM1k5KGfYfQ9HI8QJE.RZHyq2mibmcOYdg_fkVGZw3sHdtCfWC6WYEvw bbW2tsjg1LJq1Nrs7K.eOnXvtihZgJmrpkkTbybr8gJRHHbc56d66ituc_pr3y1fT6xD1dPQ1yR7 8.zlQbBt6e_Cv3vlJvgYP2cL3lDovK2chiGvKtk_rVYBmf75OzOcJ0oh4rp1V8c9LAA8h98dedRL kYhfKYlqa3jom_xk1X9vhuuIMhi0cvDNFViwhV95Rkg9uoOds7EOwB1E3JBEggCJGjL7cimKyMnR W7a6kXAI4WOlMNMtwAjj6crOPSk8foetIvPTID1vGFih2p7JiUb3zZSe0Qfk.HeTCMgF6OErSJpr czYwm7O1v2pkTuvYSWOxQ0V1sc_TpWAjydL1M8kovuMKOwAevaarGkZIQTtqX7r1G.D_v0dp6.BA FOelEMdiiBguAEXMjl8.fwj62QKOF5ho9.Fg7QZrehlo1cWJTgLKwjGAOSob3CAHPS0BphBKX_sy rJ.Xc5_exUWETNECvofp7Y3YhPmfEpfsTVK3FP8DdZSPY7U8RrHvXsYpSgeNE6_uOnd4TDvass2U dceaol6hBZ5hYMbjea1fjsymoiiwhQra5evJ7kfa7n9G12EsKE9YqrPLamQOjmCpXVnYxDLt1KAj oNt.TFoLYs1hnlQzik5LwMQCJcgDkf0RlYbsopas_U_y8P5mcozHMBxLAnfPpWTAW7eM.2NdeAfl 0gA5eAou9hdjqbkR6PNY._lBEKCROz9yen8gcwcXYs13mt.CWZIqbo2Cq9r83nNs6DvSJZms_YYc NaHY.c_einN1YpKDZqrV0NIyJPtKHIH850t24XMrHfXsxh.LsNfh9rSLchzV5J6Xd1MCYTzLSN8s .vT_cFJ5eZ4w0ZMX.hX5opZCEhGqZIdy7jfjIqXBjDqbuuXaAzowPcgO6BCCgwmPyyVM0uVmEDUc 9dDL9cmkKllkGJ6qz6XsuQ77dJN4RQQ9XxLm8xarnJt_Clt7q5QUDpymk3tHFTKUpBgOfFPe_xtJ QHowi7ijG1LK_o.TYB54K5IaBzzOEX9CJlHydvPL6.Y9b6DgQA2TRWsDkqVV6bFB77cvo47r4U4U Ulw6ZsZ93rGp0evtSIQx6Ny_Q3qHU_LpSmp6Ex5xYzccP.5AAfA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 18 Oct 2018 14:26:36 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 14:26:29 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Fred Baker Cc: Vittorio Bertola , Hrpc , "bzs@theworld.com" Message-ID: <2065624006.276357.1539872789922@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12631 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 14:26:39 -0000 Fred, >I guess I might summarize the draft with "we can and do filter content. The question isn't capability, it is motivation and intent. >The Law of Unexpected Consequences strongly suggests that even intents that appear completely benign can have negative consequences. >And 'not filtering' is itself a filter that catches nothing, and is subject to the same cast of unintended consequences." The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I totally agree with you that both action and inaction have unintended consequences. I have done lots of humanitarian work. Believe me, I know very well that good intentions are not enough. Having said that, entities (government, platforms, etc) ARE taking action. But, the action is in isolation. Frankly, I can't say that I blame them but I believe that this is causing a fair amount of chaos and may be leading people to feel that the Internet is an unreliable medium. This is anecdotal but I can definitely say that my non-techy friends are starting to say that they really don't believe "anything" on the Internet. This would be an unfortunate unintended consequence of inaction. What we (the co-authors) wanted to do is to start the conversation so that by the IETF community coming together we can maybe think of some way forward. There are other drafts which need to be written in this area. We thought of two (I am sure there are more): "Architectural Considerations of Filtering" and "Protocol Specification for Content Tagging and Distribution". (The content tagging is a potential protocol solution.) But, we chose to concentrate first on taking a look at just what is going on. We wanted to do a survey of what people are doing in terms of filtering. In some ways, I am going to say that maybe motivation and intent is besides the point. It is the result of what happens that is germane. That is, just because you have good intent does not mean that what you actually achieve is good. (Which is what you are also saying with unintended consequences.) The reason we did the survey of what is happening now is that many people were saying to us that we have not specified the problem enough. So, our draft is an attempt to at least describe what is going on. One thing I believe has happened before in HRPC is that all filtering is seen as censorship. Of course, sometimes it is true that filtering IS censorship. But, not always. We wanted to discuss the scenario dispassionately, as engineers. Let's take a look at reality, see if we can describe the problem and find a way forward. Internally, we (the co-authors) have taken a look at RPZ for DNS ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vixie-dnsop-dns-rpz-00) (among other protocols), which try to address something like the problem we may be talking about. But, that is going too fast. Let's see if we can at least specify the problem and use cases. Nalini From nobody Fri Oct 19 12:05:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C250B131137; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:56:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, irtf-chair@irtf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.87.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153997540478.6592.7905193721192251784.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:56:44 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] hrpc - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 103 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 18:56:53 -0000 Dear Avri Doria, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. hrpc Session 1 (2:00 requested) Monday, 5 November 2018, Morning Session I 0900-1100 Room Name: Chitlada 1 size: 300 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/sessions/hrpc.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Area Name: IRTF Session Requester: Avri Doria Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: dnsop gaia irtfopen Second Priority: dprive doh driu Third Priority: mls People who must be present: Avri Doria Mallory Knodel Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Oct 19 20:38:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00E60130E23 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 20:38:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AfYib8unt_2O for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 20:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls6.std.com [192.74.137.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06569124D68 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 20:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w9K3c1hF005312; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 23:38:03 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w9K3X5PL013123; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 23:33:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 23:33:05 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: Niels ten Oever Cc: hrpc@irtf.org In-Reply-To: References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 03:38:27 -0000 My interest in this tagging effort is much more in the realm of mechanism rather than policy though an overview of policy seems like a good idea so as to document motivations. On the one hand this can be a fairly simple proposal whose main value would be in establishing a standardized, universal, content tagging format, much like RPZ has attempted for DNS. Technical implementation is somewhat more complicated. How does one effectively insert tagging into another party's stream for example? That's likely beyond the scope of this effort and should be, but the design should make it possible. Even given all that an actual implementation could be one of the most massive undertakings ever conceived for the internet. How does one taxonomize the internet's content? Also beyond the scope of this effort unless one wishes to argue it's impossible so why try? I would like to think the use cases are both positive and negative. Positive might be essentially a search and filter tool. One wants to see more about baseball, another wants to see less, another wants to subscribe to a service which makes their child's access more child-safe, etc. One example of an end-user application I suggested was not seeing for example NSFW content at work but automatically filing it for later private viewing. Negative would be unreasonable censorship policies. Fraudulent or malicious tagging could also be a problem. Tools can be like that. Ideally I'd like to see as much of the use of tagging as possible be a tool for end users rather than a bludgeon for central authorities. How does one achieve that? At the very least by making it a tool which could be used by end-users rather than designing it from the start to only be of practical use to centralized authorities. We (the internet community) have been grappling with this basic problem for many years in many different ways. For example inserting DKIM (&c) headers into email to categorize email, or tagging content NSFW by various actionable means. Lately we've been grappling with the same basic problems on the web and social media and broadening the scope of the content (e.g., fake news.) A unified format and evolving taxonomic dictionary could be more useful than attacking this problem anew for every application. It might be impossible to fully realize but also might be an improvement nonetheless. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Fri Oct 19 21:13:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E0A130E25 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 21:13:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id POzOlKNAL0ra for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 21:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 510FC124D68 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 21:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id s4-v6so16690697plp.0 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 21:13:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gdZVlum2/dKRn6XmdvPphKqorlBz4tPamH/vAm1DIUg=; b=ErmJnLiwSqgOIcfQhQFBr06zFW5Qg4TfGbAGanrmQOD/tiSio9uldpS7INx7iL/Bpu weGC4wpaWYD3wzgbsGjpay/A9F1CLdr6mGPu/IZYMrrZU6QNTSXCdyFVQmD3yYiTanct sC7hjdBn+L0+mE5MSOwcJiGuAxxN7u+O0wDQ/VqiuN/B/pDC15cPSlcw2myu/lXx4OZ1 fCMUFh0zWjB3xQzIesaBdY/vjU0TjdRENHj0jsa8v8qcV/q7rVZI1ZEhICWG6nF7BZXI Y2YxaTuypsA1T5F/fyzDtEqhzSrlE+CniIlfuzlUPkMgu5/AT/CTsJMMuiVOQsXpGoAL N/MQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gdZVlum2/dKRn6XmdvPphKqorlBz4tPamH/vAm1DIUg=; b=RKN2IjTBdjpSWYUHaNcIOPTa+xNzJDwMxTgS4/lfAAD0eCc7ewYvDxHU73lW+6xrpR xHrEHxQpGEHPFfy0MDAuKEPkeTuBfDmwrBAeKDCO3qhwwL/49oWfXymQ+mzaTtiDom/M no1Mhj5jcwboy3fO9iz5eA87TiT/qMA35740mCUb08HMycabYZGjI9zhG77U6oAXhDUs GtXM7tPGR5ZOq3HvnZUKXnc1h5Nt1itOQDbZ/DC99YA60dDLrOTYirU2EtUxNCU/LxkW AVp9Lzqi4tELBi1dvY2qeknO9xTfqHzBX8OaOXymX8hr0aKS+J82D/HlvmI7/2ZjPV5K PApg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfogll6uh8ew3P4z4GqPBEalAjImJRAqgIZXveDV0u9elUp/I4E82 oEtoz8hSHXoslKbXuhIDGXzbfFRJLA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62Q8suinyajVUGl1dN937VzRB+bcOTS1rckvZ4pbuWMLMW80VSr+Ma1o4Tk6lv1LbHN22FF0A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7683:: with SMTP id m3-v6mr37319002pll.180.1540008791446; Fri, 19 Oct 2018 21:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aspen.local (216-67-35-146-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.35.146]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v185-v6sm26134609pfv.48.2018.10.19.21.13.10 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Oct 2018 21:13:11 -0700 (PDT) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 20:13:08 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 04:13:14 -0000 On 10/19/18 7:33 PM, bzs@theworld.com wrote: > A unified format and evolving taxonomic dictionary could be more > useful than attacking this problem anew for every application. For the little it's worth it's not that clear to me what's actually under discussion. This particular document looks at content filtering by unspecified means. The previous document proposed tagging content that might have human rights implications in terms of those implications, rather than by topic. I'm not really a fan of either, but I'll note that content tagging by topic and using a standardized, controlled vocabulary is 1980s technology and, I hope, not under consideration here or anywhere else in the IETF. Still, if what's under consideration is just the syntax for doing so (and it would be awesome if the chairs could weigh in on whether or not this is in scope for this RG), I would hope that we realize that there's already a lot out there, whether it's MARC, or Dublin Core (which has been published by the IETF as an informational RFC, although I don't believe an encoding specification has been published by us). But it seems to me that in the context of HRPC it's best to stick to 1) research topics, that 2) have something to do with protocol issues that impinge on human rights. Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis From nobody Sat Oct 20 01:07:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9CF127598 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 01:07:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EwqDxQFFlBsF for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 01:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x330.google.com (mail-wm1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57E621271FF for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 01:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x330.google.com with SMTP id 206-v6so5603817wmb.5 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 01:07:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=mWAPFRxtuu3ieigQi0eIxlt4DM8myQeEwmPB2OU81Ac=; b=jL1O/yOeehCDcMmVqGqtLNowevln3pROAPZVGk1+XmKPMrDkysO4vpiBsSb9alUXU+ U9XkzBbUpkCX0v0vc6Fn5COErwMWbUr9hNaXw727fm5Uy74lKFFwntPRCmz0PQ1ylMH5 MMANUmDWEdJO3GWjJkZIoxPaONiRfjrjqlOCcVL3YzhEapbZmjvij4o/8RAoEc3OvrbS apsxjvg+3BHdPxNiascsLswjjTiHcFh2sU+gftshfSSgiWSXn+ZcnI8HTEeJtJxhEMtu TsfCSP/xF/MvrB2llRy3oUFWXBBG0eVht8MzDDFfFfiv/grfQxdLpcjNByYjZ68yg7Ry CC2A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=mWAPFRxtuu3ieigQi0eIxlt4DM8myQeEwmPB2OU81Ac=; b=ZXteHCCl3VVFly9kswN8i1RcBmnyu8dYm1EEEWu56qdGnDEQ7sJLZnzCYLH6QTFQTo bFITrpommPlqpv5qYU5B37GGr39uKeiUxqt9BUKFdbuALNDukvwDas9Im+ZfGDSN6tlf Iwg95k71K8dSvYLsyKdHM1QduzzPuuLCwpecilc9Y8mk2UocMSknAcFd43vP1SmaM5ge z+uiFH/BA2XirzO5LdGUuOkWoRjRbqMNlAdhYkqWFh8DMocSNmbgomHkK7t9MhQdCX0s 1baDQAsQWnZnGFUcAb5oFLAFFeFL00PnBQMwUfIOjAZvDJMTMnJYYNgwmc1bdD5XcBZV EOUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfogVeUvdgyGecfLBjuv1tWX9PgWNcI9HgwC1Jli1DSKKC7zUdPV1 9MaKcH7DFzLXQXh6SEfdqxvOuVdpB6I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV60NPEnt9tSXQ7PEfZmNWa5yyhCeJJ9rZNs9H23zdTbWhXzLDVPu+LGIeW+0evfAIk0bPWBBVQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:b20b:: with SMTP id b11-v6mr8006303wmf.64.1540022852547; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 01:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2620:f:8000:210:d090:472c:87ac:2afd? ([2620:f:8000:210:d090:472c:87ac:2afd]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j6-v6sm6010591wmd.29.2018.10.20.01.07.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Oct 2018 01:07:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_92868E9A-D8D1-4EA9-9098-221F9BD6FF0D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 10:07:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org To: Melinda Shore References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 08:07:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_92868E9A-D8D1-4EA9-9098-221F9BD6FF0D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Oct 20, 2018, at 6:13 AM, Melinda Shore = wrote: > This particular document looks at content filtering by unspecified = means. I suspect that "means" is an important question. The obvious = interpretation of filtering for content is to in some way look for words = that are of interest to the filtering party in the content of the = message, and "do something". That is something that is generally not = done in real time. For example, in Great Britain, child pornography is = unlawful. There is an organization that is tasked with identifying = relevant URLs and adding them to a list. That affects BGP routing; = routing to the indicated service goes via a DPI system, which looks for = an HTTP request for the URL in question and replies with a negative = response, which is a form of content filtering. In China, a similar = technique is used, I'm told, regarding content on the Internet that = contains the word "China" in any language, and specifically anything = that might criticize the Chinese government. OpenDNS has a service (they = have several, and this one is as optional as any of them) that uses = reputation services to identify URLs or services that have a high = probability of delivering malware or unlawful content (read = "pornography"), and respond with a manufactured resource record. That is = also content filtering at the name level. And what an ISP does to = mitigate DDOS and other attacks, which is essentially self-defense and = in US FCC regulation is often called "reasonable network management". It = is similarly an instance of content and protocol filtering. My thought is that we're welcome to beat any drums we want on the topic = of filtering. We're unlikely to do much more than turn electrical = potential into hot air. The first example I mentioned is a matter of = law, and governmental agencies probably don't monitor this list. The = second is a service that administrators use by choice, and they = discriminate against malware for financial and security reasons. The = third is frequently a reason that Internet access actually works. The list goes on. > But it seems to me that in the context of HRPC it's best to > stick to 1) research topics, that 2) have something to do with > protocol issues that impinge on human rights. Yes, I'd be interested in seeing anything that has resulted in or is = targeted to result in published research papers, and is following = something resembling the scientific method to produce results from data. I don't think it is limited to protocol issues, however. If one wants to = talk about OpenDNS malware filtering, for example, it will have to be = the behavior of a DNS resolver (of which OpenDNS is an example). --Apple-Mail=_92868E9A-D8D1-4EA9-9098-221F9BD6FF0D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlvK4kEACgkQEhdRnd2G P+AehA//XZkTqUNji8E+ESOvTHzHVm6XkK2oOvG23wjl4oiSScX5W7Xq7eqJt5+W KSbhc1UrKdy5F7vlwyXqgcLxCbFfAU5i5CyYP9QoGC27m012H0S9OaLcBwvaq4uZ eGl3rhal1pzKKWfa6ZVj41d9ka0mJbvmXNN0hZDW4XYe/t1eL9LjPKuZQMbYELq8 0j6vTpX/DDf+9BJRaGxQFsy7sxu5u2n+GAPZcVCs5whinT9SsbI822xC7rjYxH8s m9deiJ7+JeYPHFO8RicSiGG3Kn4n3IwpbUecsHZn5/VMibZZyAXlz3A9iSqbxnAv MkjKw2WxHqVmmoD5mGqe+YwBjs9hHaH+FBukECECfDJBj+fJ9gzP7MBWIyyIFU8n AEUDzrRbl7rptKIfa8gFhBUx9Mi61+RhI8Qaa3N3jr+CA2taHsdjmA5uArc/Erxg 0ri0D/oUwoqEqogqRe7AOOAzbJJ0P+LcwLVB8gaSIy1cR4AT+oH7UHDMPMADfM8r ajHJsUspjnsZqGPM5sUMwsrZb2GERsBbSnyyEJ4ApBTcMhdKthieGh1UhsTqJjR1 98GW+6dRXmIuSV7pO/0T2yys6NT52fyQxTEPUtSRbxA98HOoUJZEMCH4e6TGHzWZ Vdnvr6nSw833Aw1U/rCFb9leYKZgJFrQiLJUCSArnPobfNs8P3Y= =W0ja -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_92868E9A-D8D1-4EA9-9098-221F9BD6FF0D-- From nobody Sat Oct 20 02:33:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DE4128A6E; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 02:33:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 87jSIBQS-7OT; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 02:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C697126BED; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 02:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gDndF-0001ic-Lu; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:33:19 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: Cc: gaia From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US-large X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 55845565f5921b415db11848ecef6bc8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 09:33:26 -0000 Hi all, It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information asymmetries? As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I misunderstanding something? best regards, Amelia On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: > Hi Mallory, > > Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I think you are on exactly the right track in te= rms > of thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks to Erick Huerta of > Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic > historian, Fernand Braudel.=C2=A0 Braudel argues that the world has thr= ee > economies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which is the well-known > capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in > theory for every player.=C2=A0 Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usua= l > suspects form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The second economy is the Loc= al > Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you > live.=C2=A0 This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even > larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local > demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global > Economy.=C2=A0 The third economy is the Subsistence economy where marke= t > forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional > capital to make it work.=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal econom= y > with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly > contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by > traditional statistics.=C2=A0 And woven among these are both commercial= and > commons models, which can operate with varying success at the > different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has > only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is > a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the > Local and Subsistence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's > Access Gap model > .=C2= =A0It > is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; > assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible > outcomes. > > Writing more about this shortly. > > Cheers... Steve > > > On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel > wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it. I= > think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, th= at > could be another post in and of itself. > > The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is = a > sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and > profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely = to > call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to= > socialist, and even (back to) the commons! > > I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have > raised > issues of centralisation on the list in the past. > > -Mallory > > On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre > > infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just ab= out > > everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > > > https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ > > > > Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other > reactions > > you may have.=C2=A0 > > > > Thanks.... Steve Song > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gaia mailing list > > gaia@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > --=20 > Mallory Knodel > Head of Digital :: article19.org > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD= 3C C780 > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > --=20 > +1 902 529 0046 > stevesong@nsrc.org > http://nsrc..org > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Sat Oct 20 03:06:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44AAF128D0C for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 03:06:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=webfoundation.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CP_8M4nEGOe2 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 03:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-xc35.google.com (mail-yw1-xc35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 986BA128CF3 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 03:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-xc35.google.com with SMTP id 135-v6so14148643ywo.8 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 03:06:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=webfoundation.org; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=MMjG/GhnoHaKYkSCIqvFrCoNHcxxbGqXXWrPWqEIYWc=; b=JxwyjxDEnDaifeNrkubpRYnDzvMoPz00/jDaL0LPRE2AUvWYGeOgco3n4NVakbE9B+ zu4CyLs5TIjDl63lPLCs3ERIBLKRZ1yXKvmPk5xQqUYBJ3i27Tp2qx+wDMwC9T4QYNz3 HEoJCoGgz6vXPQAJ9dz1wxo3ZWgjvD060lf9o= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=MMjG/GhnoHaKYkSCIqvFrCoNHcxxbGqXXWrPWqEIYWc=; b=SlyqkJRFQxiJswpfY8Fd9MIS5mhLh1rg4S/qH/ZF++o7BB1L3b6d3gap+pJqJAvCTE vRoL1H4JhAabRxecTZ+/zxJGXI91vcc0Y0qypuPzrExpW9bUC0PQVzghbgD2VvUJs/j2 BpWYYNh/pjKiOEcQUxplug44fedNC2V5z7qHxmsaxDnhBNip+cpUEJHXuB0jm3AxD/Ik WuOfLDdeSUBJw57e0Msdf6l1Ac8hTHD4CYkZPcZ5dJ8HEKRxq7tjQq6bGsItZxXkjjvW XmXoQ6XKUq/LAVV5LtdnL0PRMMDfxObRJo49SNXvrBhzopn8loT4chEfwffViiB/l1Zx yImA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojVXWFz2TfiOWNUZz4AUR/NNQd8AGl6/LSbU1hT5rsQQ+KCfocO ORmlZBPg/PpZWl5cltxCUmmdhbEQ5m/Rug== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV619Co//z75HJvmoI+L/kWMDbA+QHEfUOMxEnQwIukLC0rREL6kduLQ8CogsLjlSUCSvGnCIUg== X-Received: by 2002:a81:548:: with SMTP id 69-v6mr25360246ywf.197.1540030001913; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 03:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.20] (c-24-63-25-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.63.25.220]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u14-v6sm7558918ywg.46.2018.10.20.03.06.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Oct 2018 03:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-C265CF68-C9B4-4644-8E77-86BF4FA4F410 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Sonia Jorge X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16A404) In-Reply-To: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 06:06:38 -0400 Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, gaia Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> To: Amelia Andersdotter Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 10:06:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail-C265CF68-C9B4-4644-8E77-86BF4FA4F410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference cal= l among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy to joi= n a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and the Acc= ess Model.=20 Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may have)= that shows that relationship between USO and quality of infrastructure? I f= ind that very difficult to believe but open to be proven wrong.=20 Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been mo= re instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer and b= ehind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the case in s= ome Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well. So t= he level of economic development overall is a key variable.=20 As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here, b= ut for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced and that c= an add to the discussion.=20 - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: https://a4ai.org/affordability= -report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 report will be launched and publish= ed on Tuesday and addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, speci= ally on costs associated with infrastructure investment - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: https://a4ai.org/aff= ordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/ - For those interested in USFs in Africa, see https://a4ai.org/universal-ser= vice-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource-to-close-the-gender-digital-divid= e/ Best, Sonia Jorge Executive Director, A4AI Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation 1-617-905-7819 > On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter wrot= e: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service > Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have > worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. > Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces > off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service > provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship > to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a > communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets > and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in > various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar > difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit > theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information > asymmetries? >=20 > As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and > C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also > incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's > fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a > few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is > fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the > main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in > the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile > infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors > have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where > there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I > misunderstanding something? >=20 > best regards, >=20 > Amelia >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: >> Hi Mallory, >>=20 >> Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in terms >> of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of >> Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic >> historian, Fernand Braudel. Braudel argues that the world has three >> economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known >> capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in >> theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual >> suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the Local >> Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you >> live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even >> larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local >> demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global >> Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market >> forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional >> capital to make it work. This is the world of the informal economy >> with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly >> contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by >> traditional statistics. And woven among these are both commercial and >> commons models, which can operate with varying success at the >> different levels. =20 >>=20 >> When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has >> only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is >> a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the >> Local and Subsistence economies. =20 >>=20 >> For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's >> Access Gap model >> . It= >> is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; >> assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible >> outcomes. >>=20 >> Writing more about this shortly. >>=20 >> Cheers... Steve >>=20 >>=20 >> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel > > wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Steve, >>=20 >> Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it. I >> think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that >> could be another post in and of itself. >>=20 >> The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a >> sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and >> profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to >> call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to >> socialist, and even (back to) the commons! >>=20 >> I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have >> raised >> issues of centralisation on the list in the past. >>=20 >> -Mallory >>=20 >>> On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: >>> Hi all, >>>=20 >>> This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre >>> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about >>> everywhere). =20 >>>=20 >>> https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ >>>=20 >>> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other >> reactions >>> you may have.=20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks.... Steve Song >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gaia mailing list >>> gaia@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Mallory Knodel >> Head of Digital :: article19.org >> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> +1 902 529 0046 >> stevesong@nsrc.org >> http://nsrc..org >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Amelia Andersdotter > Technical Consultant, Digital Programme >=20 > ARTICLE19 > www.article19.org >=20 > PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia --Apple-Mail-C265CF68-C9B4-4644-8E77-86BF4FA4F410 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All,

Interesting disc= ussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference call among interest= ed people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy to join a stimulating d= iscussion on the topic, starting with your blog and the Access Model. <= /div>

Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a pape= r (anything you may have) that shows that relationship between USO and quali= ty of infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be p= roven wrong. 

Something important to keep in m= ind is that countries where USO have been more instrumental are also countri= es that have traditionally been poorer and behind in terms of infrastructure= development; this is certainly the case in some Southern European countries= and maybe Eastern European ones as well. So the level of economic developme= nt overall is a key variable. 

As for Africa and/or infrastructu= re investments, I could share a lot here, but for now let me call your atten= tion to some reports we produced and that can add to the discussion. 
- A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: https://a4ai.org/affordabilit= y-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 report will be launched and pu= blished on Tuesday and addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, s= pecially on costs associated with infrastructure investment
- a re= cent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: https://a4ai.org/affo= rdable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/

Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive Director, A4AI
Head of Digital= Inclusion, Web Foundation
1-617-905-7819

On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org> wrote:
Hi all,

It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Uni= versal Service
Obligations have been extensively used and ap= plied, also typically have
worse infrastructure than EU coun= tries where USO wasn't well applied.
Applying USO means you p= ut the government in a position where it faces
off with the s= ervice provider under USO in a negotiation. The service
prov= ider has information advantage and typically a better relationshipto its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a=
communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African ma= rkets
and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are t= he issues faced in
various European jurisdictions with USO a= nd I'm assuming similar
difficulties would arise in the Afri= can setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curious= how to avoid these information
asymmetries?

As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (opera= tors A, B and
C all collaborate as soon as they own physical= fibre networks) also
incentivises many actors to get into t= he infrastructure market. That's
fundamentally a good thing:= it means not all the last-mile is owned by a
few big actors= who need to be regulated by a regulator who is
fundamentall= y at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the
mai= n criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 inthe EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile<= br>infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different act= ors
have had regulatory incentives to build their own networ= ks, or where
there has been purposeful public investment in l= ast-mile). Or am I
misunderstanding something?

best regards,

Amelia



On 2018-10-= 04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:
Hi Mal= lory,

Thanks for that!  I think you a= re on exactly the right track in terms
of thinking about economic models.  Thanks to Erick H= uerta of
Rhizomatica,= I am very taken with the thinking of French economic
historian, Fernand Braudel.  Braudel a= rgues that the world has three
economies not one.  A global economy which is the well-known<= /span>
capitalist economic m= odel where monopoly is the perfect end-game in
theory for every player.  Google, Colgate, Co= ca-Cola, all the usual
suspects form part of this economy.  The second economy is the Local<= /span>
Economy where service= s are specific to the city/community where you
live.  This might be your local butcher, bake= r, plumbers or even
l= arger service provider which offers services that grow out of local
demand and which serve local n= eeds in more unique ways than the Global
Economy.  The third economy is the Subsistence econo= my where market
force= s may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional
capital to make it work.  This= is the world of the informal economy
with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that dire= ctly
contribute to th= e overall economy but are largely unmeasured by
traditional statistics.  And woven among the= se are both commercial and
= commons models, which can operate with varying success at the
different levels.  =

When viewed through this lens, it is eas= y to see how regulation has
only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there i= s
a need for enabling= regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the
Local and Subsistence economies.  

For me this also highlights a key flaw in m= odels like the World Bank's
Access Gap model
<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and-universal-acce= ss>. It
i= s not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;
assuming that successful globa= l capitalism is the best of all possible
outcomes.

Writing more= about this shortly.
=
Cheers... Steve

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org
<ma= ilto:mallory@article19.org>> wrote:

<= span>    Hi Steve,

 =   Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it= . I
  &nbs= p;think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that
   could b= e another post in and of itself.

 &= nbsp; The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have i= s a
  &nbs= p;sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and<= br>
   profits f= rom (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to
   call for modern e= conomic models ranging from squarely capitalist to
   socialist, and even (back t= o) the commons!

   I'm CC= ing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have
   raised
   issues of cent= ralisation on the list in the past.

 =   -Mallory
=
   O= n 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
Hi all,
=
This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre
infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies j= ust about
everywhere).  
=

https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/
<= span>
Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or a= ny other
   reactions
you may have. 

Thanks.... Steve Song

<= /span>
_______________________________________________
=
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org= >
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
=


<= /blockquote>

   --
   Mallory Knodel
   Head of Digital ::= article19.org <http://article19.org>
   gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B2= 40 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

&= nbsp;  _______________________________________________
<= /blockquote>
   gaia mailing l= ist
  &nbs= p;gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
   https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


=
--
=
+1 902 529 0046
stevesong@nsrc.org <mailto:st= evesong@nsrc.org>
http://nsrc..org <http://nsrc.org>

=
___________________________= ____________________
= hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
<= span>

--
Amelia Andersdott= er
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme
<= /span>
ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B85= 2 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
g= aia mailing list
gaia@irtf.= org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
= --Apple-Mail-C265CF68-C9B4-4644-8E77-86BF4FA4F410-- From nobody Sat Oct 20 04:31:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969DF128BAC; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 04:31:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iWmeTb--ltLU; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 04:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb31.google.com (mail-yb1-xb31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A8EE126BED; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 04:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb31.google.com with SMTP id x5-v6so14291704ybl.11; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 04:31:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d3/Ykb1mNrJXaGthxFfzE/nhXDR1xnntKlWv6nlJCac=; b=PBnR/noFI2yGgx4WD7yzz/NvgddNKpjC69zR3rg/u5fQ8GyBCvBhmVS1c5wg2SQ6aW LMmM+d2H78N1k6bZEX8sismTskSOYnb3EM5yhJLsRLKZaEx93e3FW2avA0lAIFH4qWR3 mv3Z+UtzKu5C+qPjMm6HzgSoDt41VexyMdY1tVBb6D5vYVkfH+WsTo+pSHuCJ/c+8c1h I3x6oiIsS5YEhZNuvXyWJ2WiXJxrn3xSECVlGqRjpzu4Fvf0asG33Qs4qbOPmKV5rzCp SByALZzL4Ke4dY8thob1l3adjQ+Cbmo5I/+kG3pwTt1kk9vfwLoadPlGl2/nbCN8SD3n wGtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d3/Ykb1mNrJXaGthxFfzE/nhXDR1xnntKlWv6nlJCac=; b=JZzLGPd++tRh3Kps/bl1xGCk6+ne4ED6FpMHmfG11dqC7qEDn3VtBWIZGCG1V8eJ5w 4eZgfhBXfD2mTON6pUgxwgYGO5aSfpdYc2lx6nEyrrotIKX352A8OTr2YtoYZtBaAv0a fD3lXw5yHmIHBMnZdYxu1lLdijKQdrSj5nKQEfTFbmQXljRTGDh6pyrdND4iInMBYaMY RKJ6S4ja4hZUdhX9xT3ZCOcTXdtykFZS3tSXd1C44x8m4l1E4/SkwDQwwahdYd7Miw5I IXtcZ6FvDUOj0lcsMOvTr8KN/U+Z8K0EvhT6OkfN1bvtkYvqn33B0v1FQIIZYF+ZZH25 gx/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoi92Xj1ynLTSddNn/Bl5qk//e3PoGBrQR3oaO++KfCWZlx3hqxa lF1T4AWBfFkLB9vNIEeYJGHn9ssg11ssve1qmfhizU5snHYOFw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63WkVCAgajfMUeJts6NxhslU2jxO1/rERZOkCBFFazlJhNqQTSmuosNXu3nVL//5V36oNYC+8Y38NfdIacRN9w= X-Received: by 2002:a25:b083:: with SMTP id f3-v6mr4372098ybj.293.1540035089942; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 04:31:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> In-Reply-To: <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> From: "Michael J. Oghia" Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 07:30:53 -0400 Message-ID: To: Sonia Jorge Cc: amelia@article19.org, GAIA list , hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007a4d800578a75cb3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:31:34 -0000 --0000000000007a4d800578a75cb3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Amelia, Sonia, all: Forgive my ignorance, but I'm quite surprised to hear that USO/USF within the EU context. I find it a bit disheartening, honestly. For much time now, I've seen USO/USF as a positive policy option to encourage network diversity and especially help small networks or networks working in rural/remote areas (e.g., CNs). Given my lack of experience with actually building networks, though, perhaps this is just naivety and wishful thinking on my part. I'm glad that Sonia replied, though, because I had A4AI's 2018 paper on USO/USF in mind when drafting this email =E2=80=93 though models (and th= eir outcomes) differ based on country policy, regional context, politics, the amount of incumbent operators, etc. etc. I also appreciate her qualification that, traditionally, USO have been more effective in poorer countries (which is in line with my thought). So, thank you for clarifying @Sonia, and I'd be very interested in a webinar on this. Please share the 2018 report next week when it's published (I'm really interested in the policy implications surrounding connectivity)= . Best, -Michael On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:07 AM Sonia Jorge wrote: > Hi All, > > Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference > call among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy = to > join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and t= he > Access Model. > > Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may > have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of > infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be prov= en > wrong. > > Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been > more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer > and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the > case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones = as > well. So the level of economic development overall is a key variable. > > As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here= , > but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced and th= at > can add to the discussion. > - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: > https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 > report will be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key > questions relevant to this discussion, specially on costs associated with > infrastructure investment > - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: > https://a4ai.org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/ > - For those interested in USFs in Africa, see > https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource-= to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/ > > Best, > Sonia Jorge > Executive Director, A4AI > Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation > 1-617-905-7819 > > On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter > wrote: > > Hi all, > > It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service > Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have > worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. > Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces > off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service > provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship > to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a > communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets > and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in > various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar > difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit > theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information > asymmetries? > > As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and > C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also > incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's > fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a > few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is > fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the > main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in > the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile > infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors > have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where > there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I > misunderstanding something? > > best regards, > > Amelia > > > > On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: > > Hi Mallory, > > > Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in terms > > of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of > > Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic > > historian, Fernand Braudel. Braudel argues that the world has three > > economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known > > capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in > > theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual > > suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the Local > > Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you > > live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even > > larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local > > demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global > > Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market > > forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional > > capital to make it work. This is the world of the informal economy > > with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly > > contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by > > traditional statistics. And woven among these are both commercial and > > commons models, which can operate with varying success at the > > different levels. > > > When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has > > only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is > > a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the > > Local and Subsistence economies. > > > For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's > > Access Gap model > > . It > > is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; > > assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible > > outcomes. > > > Writing more about this shortly. > > > Cheers... Steve > > > > On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel > >> wrote: > > > Hi Steve, > > > Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I > > think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that > > could be another post in and of itself. > > > The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a > > sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and > > profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to > > call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to > > socialist, and even (back to) the commons! > > > I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have > > raised > > issues of centralisation on the list in the past. > > > -Mallory > > > On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: > > Hi all, > > > This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre > > infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about > > everywhere). > > > https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ > > > Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other > > reactions > > you may have. > > > Thanks.... Steve Song > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gaia mailing list > > gaia@irtf.org > > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > -- > > Mallory Knodel > > Head of Digital :: article19.org > > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > > _______________________________________________ > > gaia mailing list > > gaia@irtf.org > > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > -- > > +1 902 529 0046 > > stevesong@nsrc.org > > > http://nsrc..org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > -- > Amelia Andersdotter > Technical Consultant, Digital Programme > > ARTICLE19 > www.article19.org > > PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > --0000000000007a4d800578a75cb3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Amelia, Sonia, all:

Forgive my ignor= ance, but I'm quite surprised to hear that USO/USF within the EU contex= t. I find it a bit disheartening, honestly. For much time now, I've see= n USO/USF as a positive policy option to encourage network diversity and es= pecially help small networks or networks working in rural/remote areas (e.g= ., CNs).

Given my lack of experience with actually= building networks, though, perhaps this is just naivety and wishful thinki= ng on my part. I'm glad that Sonia replied, though, because I had A4AI&= #39;s 2018 paper on USO/USF in min= d when drafting this email =E2=80=93 though models (and their outcomes) dif= fer based on country policy, regional context, politics, the amount of incu= mbent operators, etc. etc. I also appreciate her qualification that, tradit= ionally, USO have been more effective in poorer countries (which is in line= with my thought).

So, thank you for clarifying=C2= =A0@Sonia, and I'd be very interested in a webinar on this. Please shar= e the 2018 report next week when it's published (I'm really interes= ted in the policy implications surrounding connectivity).

Best,
-Michael

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:07 AM Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org> wrote:
- A4AI=E2= =80=99s annual Affordability Report:=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/affordabil= ity-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 report will be launched and= published on Tuesday and addresses key questions relevant to this discussi= on, specially on costs associated with infrastructure investment
= - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges:=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/

Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive Director, A4AI
Head of Digital Inclusion,= Web Foundation
1-617-905-7819

On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org> wro= te:

Hi all,

It might be helpful to know that EU countri= es where Universal Service
Obligations have been extensivel= y used and applied, also typically have
worse infrastructur= e than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.
Appl= ying USO means you put the government in a position where it facesoff with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The servi= ce
provider has information advantage and typically a bette= r relationship
to its consumers than the government has to = its citizens (so a
communications advantage too). I lack ex= perience of the African markets
and their regulators, but i= n broad strokes those are the issues faced in
various Europ= ean jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar
dif= ficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information
asymmetries?

As it is described= by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
C all= collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also
incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That= 9;s
fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-m= ile is owned by a
few big actors who need to be regulated b= y a regulator who is
fundamentally at a disadvantage compar= ed to the big actors. It's the
main criticism targettin= g the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in
the EU as wel= l - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile
infras= tructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors
= have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where<= /span>
there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). = Or am I
misunderstanding something?
=
best regards,

Amelia
<= span>


On 2018-10-04 20:52= , Steve Song wrote:
Hi Mallory,

Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I think you are o= n exactly the right track in terms
of thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks to Erick Hu= erta of
Rhizomatica,= I am very taken with the thinking of French economic
historian, Fernand Braudel.=C2=A0 Braudel= argues that the world has three
economies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which is the well-kn= own
capitalist econo= mic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in
=
theory for every player.=C2=A0 Google, Colg= ate, Coca-Cola, all the usual
suspects form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The second economy is t= he Local
Economy whe= re services are specific to the city/community where you
live.=C2=A0 This might be your local b= utcher, baker, plumbers or even
larger service provider which offers services that grow out of = local
demand and whi= ch serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global
Economy.=C2=A0 The third economy is th= e Subsistence economy where market
forces may not operate because there is not sufficient trad= itional
capital to m= ake it work.=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal economy
with barters, cooperatives, commun= ity initiatives that directly
contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by
traditional statistic= s.=C2=A0 And woven among these are both commercial and
commons models, which can operate with v= arying success at the
different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0

When vi= ewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has
only enabled the global economy in= telecommunication and that there is
a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiat= ives in the
Local an= d Subsistence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Fo= r me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's
Access Gap model
<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and-universal-access&g= t;.=C2=A0It
is not s= o much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;
assuming that successful global cap= italism is the best of all possible
outcomes.
=
Writing more = about this shortly.
=
Cheers... Steve


On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org
<mailto:mallory@article19.org&= gt;> wrote:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hi St= eve,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks for shar= ing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0think the metaphor is = solid economically. And politically, well, that
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0could be another post in and= of itself.
<= br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The agra= rian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sort of old-wor= ld economic structure that politically controls and
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0profits from (what shoul= d be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0call for modern economic model= s ranging from squarely capitalist to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0socialist, and even (back to) the comm= ons!

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'm CCing H= RPC because it might be of interest to those who have
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0raised
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0issues of centra= lisation on the list in the past.

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-Mallory

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
Hi all,
=
This is a reflection on the current state of terr= estrial fibre
infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but = I think applies just about
everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0

https://manypossibilities.net= /2018/10/fibre-feudalism/

Curiou= s to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reactio= ns
you may have.=C2=A0

Thanks.= ... Steve Song


_= ______________________________________________
gaia mail= ing list
gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
https://www.irtf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/gaia



= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0--
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Mallory Knodel
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Head of Digital :: article19.org <http://article19.org>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gpg fingerprint :: = E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0_______________________________________= ________
=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0gaia mailing list
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia@irtf.org <= mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



-- =
+1 902 529 0046
stevesong@nsrc.org <mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org><= /span>
http://nsrc..org <http://nsrc.org>


___________= ____________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irt= f.org
https://www.= irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

=
--
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6= CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/gaia
_____________= __________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
--0000000000007a4d800578a75cb3-- From nobody Sat Oct 20 09:51:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D71312D4ED for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 09:51:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YIaDIst8HFC6 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outprodmail01.cc.columbia.edu (outprodmail01.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.72.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA024130DD7 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 09:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hazelnut (hazelnut.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.213.250]) by outprodmail01.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w9KGmOxq027782 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:51:25 -0400 Received: from hazelnut (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hazelnut (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612B36D for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sendprodmail03.cc.columbia.edu (sendprodmail03.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.72.15]) by hazelnut (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476DD6D for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f72.google.com (mail-ot1-f72.google.com [209.85.210.72]) by sendprodmail03.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w9KGpOQe049764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:51:25 -0400 Received: by mail-ot1-f72.google.com with SMTP id d34so27025404otb.10 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 09:51:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yWQvlc5R5E3bPd+1foqtJPCBC5mGrKeNx3R44vB/dMQ=; b=G7NvqVgjKrwSW6t0rhg6FfAxg42sd9tnVgio9UV940SxT5NQuCvnZLJdQEK+B3Knmb YM9/wP4Gud2HpFdwJ6oDD1zjCDOzdczidewHPKzq/hDl5tLGlB/Oe8R8CSWmWNI9D4g5 0bNBK19fi+vPwkSPU8m+ZQPk+sXLzg1e2DTAMdRux8haqyN1yRTLCl67ngbPax6Y2tel XDh5/TbEe9qzMsfNfrwxjyo22/yZWrs/2DDuK3BpndVJvhsbmde2Gkxn4bRHKapR9Is1 +P4nnMZpU51zrAYg0K6S/jV9TClCRS+Rw9evpMwrmogOeAZT1CDGTIskTfG/fkzSs/KO a26A== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoi1IUrrczwkVt2gmxJnJgAnpxF46cgngyJH3mWY9sMmm9nGWP3G 93c9bNJB07FmklZODCNrQtdRxVRES0OJMgQDaqoh1hqrYlpha6+bvY6esj7qj0JNxFGTvtTjaK+ Y7vjwdS8Y0sij6JEF3k0fSoBO8Qw8 X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2ac3:: with SMTP id e61mr24142841otb.202.1540054284054; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 09:51:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61nbVkTml7fhFpVkmqgl1DADGT1CskRsQ0pKFtLjBMzUuThuHgrT2vhlDHfYT0eXc+AT0cIUgROOFhMMMShqD0= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2ac3:: with SMTP id e61mr24142829otb.202.1540054283561; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 09:51:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> From: Henning Schulzrinne Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:51:07 -0400 Message-ID: To: amelia@article19.org Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, Gaia Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000081b77d0578abd420" X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.78 on 128.59.72.15 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:51:31 -0000 --00000000000081b77d0578abd420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I'm not sure which countries you are specifically referring to, but in the US, we have a combination of * no USO in many states (and USO is only for voice service) * no loop unbundling * and essentially no facilities-based competition except where cable already had offered a video product before the Internet came around * and among the highest per-month prices for residential broadband (the lowest unbundled price is usually $65 to $70, once you add fees, taxes, surcharges and so on). (There are a few exceptions, such as some local wireless providers in rural areas and a few rural electric cooperatives, but the number of customers served is well below 5% market share.) Are there countries that actually overbuild fiber at a significant scale? Henning On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 5:33 AM Amelia Andersdotter wrote: > Hi all, > > It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service > Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have > worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. > Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces > off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service > provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship > to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a > communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets > and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in > various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar > difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit > theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information > asymmetries? > > As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and > C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also > incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's > fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a > few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is > fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the > main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in > the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile > infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors > have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where > there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I > misunderstanding something? > > best regards, > > Amelia > > > > On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: > > Hi Mallory, > > > > Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in terms > > of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of > > Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic > > historian, Fernand Braudel. Braudel argues that the world has three > > economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known > > capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in > > theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual > > suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the Local > > Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you > > live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even > > larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local > > demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global > > Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market > > forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional > > capital to make it work. This is the world of the informal economy > > with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly > > contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by > > traditional statistics. And woven among these are both commercial and > > commons models, which can operate with varying success at the > > different levels. > > > > When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has > > only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is > > a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the > > Local and Subsistence economies. > > > > For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's > > Access Gap model > > >. It > > is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; > > assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible > > outcomes. > > > > Writing more about this shortly. > > > > Cheers... Steve > > > > > > On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel > > wrote: > > > > Hi Steve, > > > > Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it. I > > think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that > > could be another post in and of itself. > > > > The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a > > sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and > > profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to > > call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to > > socialist, and even (back to) the commons! > > > > I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have > > raised > > issues of centralisation on the list in the past. > > > > -Mallory > > > > On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre > > > infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just > about > > > everywhere). > > > > > > https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ > > > > > > Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other > > reactions > > > you may have. > > > > > > Thanks.... Steve Song > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gaia mailing list > > > gaia@irtf.org > > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mallory Knodel > > Head of Digital :: article19.org > > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gaia mailing list > > gaia@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > > > > -- > > +1 902 529 0046 > > stevesong@nsrc.org > > http://nsrc..org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > -- > Amelia Andersdotter > Technical Consultant, Digital Programme > > ARTICLE19 > www.article19.org > > PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > --00000000000081b77d0578abd420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not sure which countries you are specifically refe= rring to, but in the US, we have a combination of
* no USO in many stat= es (and USO is only for voice service)
* no loop unbundling
=
* and essentially no facilities-based competition except where cable a= lready had offered a video product before the Internet came around
* and among the highest per-month prices for residential broadband (the l= owest unbundled price is usually $65 to $70, once you add fees, taxes, surc= harges and so on).

(There are a few exceptions, su= ch as some local wireless providers in rural areas and a few rural electric= cooperatives, but the number of customers served is well below 5% market s= hare.)

Are there countries that actually overbuild= fiber at a significant scale?

Henning

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 5:33 AM Ame= lia Andersdotter <amelia@article= 19.org> wrote:
Hi all,

It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service
Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have
worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces
off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service
provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship
to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a
communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets
and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar
difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information
asymmetries?

As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also
incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's<= br> fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is
fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in
the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile
infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors
have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where
there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I
misunderstanding something?

best regards,

Amelia



On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:
> Hi Mallory,
>
> Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I think you are on exactly the right track in t= erms
> of thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks to Erick Huerta of
> Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic
> historian, Fernand Braudel.=C2=A0 Braudel argues that the world has th= ree
> economies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which is the well-known
> capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in > theory for every player.=C2=A0 Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usu= al
> suspects form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The second economy is the Lo= cal
> Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you > live.=C2=A0 This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even<= br> > larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local > demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global=
> Economy.=C2=A0 The third economy is the Subsistence economy where mark= et
> forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional
> capital to make it work.=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal econo= my
> with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly
> contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by
> traditional statistics.=C2=A0 And woven among these are both commercia= l and
> commons models, which can operate with varying success at the
> different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0
>
> When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has > only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is=
> a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the<= br> > Local and Subsistence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0
>
> For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank&#= 39;s
> Access Gap model
> <http://blogs.worldbank.o= rg/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and-universal-access>.=C2=A0It
> is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; > assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible=
> outcomes.
>
> Writing more about this shortly.
>
> Cheers... Steve
>
>
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org
> <mailto:= mallory@article19.org>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Steve,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I real= ly enjoyed it. I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0think the metaphor is solid economically. And polit= ically, well, that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could be another post in and of itself.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but = what we have is a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sort of old-world economic structure that political= ly controls and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0profits from (what should be) the commons. This set= s you up nicely to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0call for modern economic models ranging from square= ly capitalist to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0socialist, and even (back to) the commons!
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest = to those who have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0raised
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0issues of centralisation on the list in the past. >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Mallory
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Hi all,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> This is a reflection on the current state of t= errestrial fibre
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I th= ink applies just about
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> https://manypossi= bilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor = is or any other
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reactions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> you may have.=C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Thanks.... Steve Song
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> ______________________________________________= _
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> gaia mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/= listinfo/gaia
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mallory Knodel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Head of Digital :: article19.org <http://article19.org= >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B= 071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gaia mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/gaia
>
>
>
> --
> +1 902 529 0046
> stevesong@nsrc= .org <mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org>
> http://n= src..org <http://nsrc.org>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
w= ww.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
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Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5D14B8FA485FA4E13BBE924C" Content-Language: en-US X-Pangea-MailScanner-ID: 9823C134A0.A1FC2 X-Pangea-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Pangea-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-Pangea-MailScanner-From: leandro@pangea.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 17:18:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5D14B8FA485FA4E13BBE924C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, interesting discussion, On 20/10/18 13:30, Michael J. Oghia wrote: > Hi Amelia, Sonia, all: > > Forgive my ignorance, but I'm quite surprised to hear that USO/USF > within the EU context. I find it a bit disheartening, honestly. For > much time now, I've seen USO/USF as a positive policy option to > encourage network diversity and especially help small networks or > networks working in rural/remote areas (e.g.., CNs). USO in my limited understanding usually works against small networks, and nearly always only in favor of the largest "universal" (national) telecoms. The funds are given to a single (e.g. BT in UK, Telefonica in ES) national operator in exchange of connecting more of the unconnected users with a minimal service under a cost threshold. For instance, the UK recently has been revising the USO policy: https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8146= #fullreport They are targeting a cost threshold of =C2=A33,400 per connection (limit = from the total cost of implementation of several billions of GBP) to provide 10/1 Mbps connection. BT is the only USO provider (KCOM in a specific area for curious reasons). As you can see the focus is bringing more "customers" matching a minimum of quality by "feeding" the largest (most capable?) operator in that country. https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/03/government-details-final-10= mbps-for-all-uk-broadband-uso-design.html For instance, one fibre community network fears the effect of that: https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadba= nd-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html However there can be alternative models, where the funds are not given to just one operator, but to every citizen that qualifies. Bottom-up instead of top-down. That may contribute to increase alternatives and not just reinforce the largest operators (at the exchange of moving to a more "feudal" model): https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/ We also have/had a related discussion in the IRTF GAIA WG, and probably will reappear in the next IGF in the presentation of the next Global Information Society Watch report around community networks: https://www.intgovforum.org/multilingual/es/content/igf-2018-apc-giswatch= -launch Cheers, Leandro. > > Given my lack of experience with actually building networks, though, > perhaps this is just naivety and wishful thinking on my part. I'm glad > that Sonia replied, though, because I had A4AI's 2018 paper > > on USO/USF in mind when drafting this email =E2=80=93 though models (an= d their > outcomes) differ based on country policy, regional context, politics, > the amount of incumbent operators, etc. etc. I also appreciate her > qualification that, traditionally, USO have been more effective in > poorer countries (which is in line with my thought). > > So, thank you for clarifying=C2=A0@Sonia, and I'd be very interested in= a > webinar on this. Please share the 2018 report next week when it's > published (I'm really interested in the policy implications > surrounding connectivity). > > Best, > -Michael > > On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:07 AM Sonia Jorge > > > wrote: > > Hi All, > > Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a > webinar/conference call among interested people? Steve, what do > you think? I would be happy to join a stimulating discussion on > the topic, starting with your blog and the Access Model.=C2=A0 > > Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you > may have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of > infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open to > be proven wrong.=C2=A0 > > Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO > have been more instrumental are also countries that have > traditionally been poorer and behind in terms of infrastructure > development; this is certainly the case in some Southern European > countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well. So the level of > economic development overall is a key variable.=C2=A0 > > As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a > lot here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports > we produced and that can add to the discussion.=C2=A0 > - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability > Report:=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. No= te > that the 2018 report will be launched and published on Tuesday and > addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, specially on > costs associated with infrastructure investment > - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and > challenges:=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/affordable-internet-access-the-co= st-challenge/ > - For those interested in USFs in Africa, > see=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-unt= apped-resource-to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/ > > Best, > Sonia Jorge > Executive Director, A4AI > Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation > 1-617-905-7819 > > On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter > > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Serv= ice >> Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also >> typically have >> worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well appli= ed. >> Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it >> faces >> off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The serv= ice >> provider has information advantage and typically a better >> relationship >> to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a >> communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African >> markets >> and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues >> faced in >> various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar >> difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit >> theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information >> asymmetries? >> >> As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, >> B and >> C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) als= o >> incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. >> That's >> fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is >> owned by a >> few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is >> fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's t= he >> main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999= in >> the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile >> infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different >> actors >> have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or whe= re >> there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I= >> misunderstanding something? >> >> best regards, >> >> Amelia >> >> >> >> On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: >>> Hi Mallory, >>> >>> Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I think you are on exactly the right track= in >>> terms >>> of thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks to Erick Huerta o= f >>> Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic= >>> historian, Fernand Braudel.=C2=A0 Braudel argues that the world h= as three >>> economies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which is the well-known= >>> capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game = in >>> theory for every player.=C2=A0 Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all th= e usual >>> suspects form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The second economy is t= he Local >>> Economy where services are specific to the city/community where y= ou >>> live.=C2=A0 This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or = even >>> larger service provider which offers services that grow out of lo= cal >>> demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the >>> Global >>> Economy.=C2=A0 The third economy is the Subsistence economy where= market >>> forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditiona= l >>> capital to make it work.=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal = economy >>> with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly >>> contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by >>> traditional statistics.=C2=A0 And woven among these are both >>> commercial and >>> commons models, which can operate with varying success at the >>> different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>> >>> When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation h= as >>> only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that >>> there is >>> a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives >>> in the >>> Local and Subsistence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>> >>> For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World >>> Bank's >>> Access Gap model >>> .=C2=A0It >>> is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensiona= l; >>> assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all >>> possible >>> outcomes. >>> >>> Writing more about this shortly. >>> >>> Cheers... Steve >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel >>> >>> > wrote: >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hi Steve, >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I = really enjoyed >>> it.. I >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0think the metaphor is solid economically. And p= olitically, >>> well, that >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0could be another post in and of itself. >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, = but what we >>> have is a >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sort of old-world economic structure that polit= ically >>> controls and >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0profits from (what should be) the commons. This= sets you up >>> nicely to >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0call for modern economic models ranging from sq= uarely >>> capitalist to >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0socialist, and even (back to) the commons! >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest = to those who have >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0raised >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0issues of centralisation on the list in the pas= t. >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-Mallory >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre >>>> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just >>>> about >>>> everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>>> >>>> https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ >>>> >>>> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reactions >>>> you may have.=C2=A0 >>>> >>>> Thanks..... Steve Song >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>> >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-- >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Mallory Knodel >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Head of Digital :: article19.org >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0= B071 0C32 A271 >>> BD3C C780 >>> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0_______________________________________________= >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia mailing list >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia@irtf.org >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>> >>> >>> >>> --=20 >>> +1 902 529 0046 >>> stevesong@nsrc.org >>> >>> http://nsrc..org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> >> >> --=20 >> Amelia Andersdotter >> Technical Consultant, Digital Programme >> >> ARTICLE19 >> www.article19.org >> >> PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --------------5D14B8FA485FA4E13BBE924C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi all, interesting discussion,

On 20/10/18 13:30, Michael J. Oghia wrote:
Hi Amelia, Sonia, all:

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm quite surprised to hear that USO/USF within the EU context. I find it a bit disheartening, honestly. For much time now, I've seen USO/USF as a positive policy option to encourage network diversity and especially help small networks or networks working in rural/remote areas (e.g.., CNs).

USO in my limited understanding usually works against small networks, and nearly always only in favor of the largest "universal" (national) telecoms. The funds are given to a single (e.g. BT in UK, Telefonica in ES) national operator in exchange of connecting more of the unconnected users with a minimal service under a cost threshold.

For instance, the UK recently has been revising the USO policy:

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8146#fullreport

They are targeting a cost threshold of £3,400 per connection (limit from the total cost of implementation of several billions of GBP) to provide 10/1 Mbps connection. BT is the only USO provider (KCOM in a specific area for curious reasons). As you can see the focus is bringing more "customers" matching a minimum of quality by "feeding" the largest (most capable?) operator in that country.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/03/government-details-final-10mbps-for-all-uk-broadband-uso-design.html

For instance, one fibre community network fears the effect of that:

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadband-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html

However there can be alternative models, where the funds are not given to just one operator, but to every citizen that qualifies. Bottom-up instead of top-down. That may contribute to increase alternatives and not just reinforce the largest operators (at the exchange of moving to a more "feudal" model): https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/

We also have/had a related discussion in the IRTF GAIA WG, and probably will reappear in the next IGF in the presentation of the next Global Information Society Watch report around community networks:

https://www.intgovforum.org/multilingual/es/content/igf-2018-apc-giswatch-launch

Cheers, Leandro.


Given my lack of experience with actually building networks, though, perhaps this is just naivety and wishful thinking on my part. I'm glad that Sonia replied, though, because I had A4AI's 2018 paper on USO/USF in mind when drafting this email – though models (and their outcomes) differ based on country policy, regional context, politics, the amount of incumbent operators, etc. etc. I also appreciate her qualification that, traditionally, USO have been more effective in poorer countries (which is in line with my thought).

So, thank you for clarifying @Sonia, and I'd be very interested in a webinar on this. Please share the 2018 report next week when it's published (I'm really interested in the policy implications surrounding connectivity).

Best,
-Michael

On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:07 AM Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org> wrote:
Hi All,

Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference call among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy to join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and the Access Model. 

Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be proven wrong. 

Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well. So the level of economic development overall is a key variable. 

As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced and that can add to the discussion. 
- A4AI’s annual Affordability Report: https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 report will be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, specially on costs associated with infrastructure investment
- a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: https://a4ai.org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/

Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive Director, A4AI
Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation
1-617-905-7819

On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org> wrote:

Hi all,

It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service
Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have
worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.
Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces
off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service
provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship
to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a
communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets
and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in
various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar
difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information
asymmetries?

As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also
incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's
fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a
few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is
fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the
main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in
the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile
infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors
have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where
there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I
misunderstanding something?

best regards,

Amelia



On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:
Hi Mallory,

Thanks for that!  I think you are on exactly the right track in terms
of thinking about economic models.  Thanks to Erick Huerta of
Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic
historian, Fernand Braudel.  Braudel argues that the world has three
economies not one.  A global economy which is the well-known
capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in
theory for every player.  Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual
suspects form part of this economy.  The second economy is the Local
Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you
live.  This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even
larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local
demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global
Economy.  The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market
forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional
capital to make it work.  This is the world of the informal economy
with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly
contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by
traditional statistics.  And woven among these are both commercial and
commons models, which can operate with varying success at the
different levels.  

When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has
only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is
a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the
Local and Subsistence economies.  

For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's
Access Gap model
<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and-universal-access>. It
is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;
assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible
outcomes.

Writing more about this shortly.

Cheers... Steve


On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org
<mailto:mallory@article19.org>> wrote:

   Hi Steve,

   Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I
   think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that
   could be another post in and of itself.

   The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a
   sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and
   profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to
   call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to
   socialist, and even (back to) the commons!

   I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have
   raised
   issues of centralisation on the list in the past.

   -Mallory

   On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
Hi all,

This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre
infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about
everywhere).  

https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/

Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other
   reactions
you may have. 

Thanks..... Steve Song


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--------------5D14B8FA485FA4E13BBE924C-- From nobody Sat Oct 20 11:22:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD5712F1A2; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:22:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e16X4c1BkeiN; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDC1012426A; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gDvtD-00052F-Mi; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 20:22:21 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> <2899a801-f595-ceaa-ccba-8860fc3c18fb@pangea.org> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFjWlnsBEAC+jUN+LJE+mmxEL8lHSrvg47xSBMb9GdtH1Jr8tRSxXiO6R5E+FydsfqkL sjO0dI3x/VnNBi/kgPFFWiAzDEwGTiR/C9b/Muo+xrY+it6e49N56LTPGezrY2dy5yo6VcLl 7UwGz3fIWiNIj7dvuoPMBoO1uacF073E+dqDM5CmNh6o+OrHW8zhUlC9hKgXCq+8XpZJw90H un1zsHF0sRDiurjfYaCcbdAGK9+th9378ed1ZvLVo5uBVQXdydl3eJkNCOELq7VOS7oxSliA uX5/nj9A4LjeeYXgNbwGfKrMjlffP0FcAcgfzg9seqDd1DEk9EVaUMTr32fbWOQHjinXSC7r Lw4xaNfoBebIe1M6z16Xg7+bXXCTdmJYcL9ugmkvT6tGnR12Pfoca1oBwXPvA0VIRi86kCSU D9qvZ3Vl07MKD2hsvFkGZJOQfEaYv5QLpCWv6RCjfDNC05IyMeSW4H18Fr/BoHX8FXHV3+9H LsbJQ/Zrofd/Cm+TKEmXLAtYc7iXvzV+mw3/u0VYqjEy/CRYa62Ah0NNNVIuswfRVIfx3UZo jX4y8j2Kh0jtUV5A4GGf8H3SzQ/cB0I7wTRHU9mCPVCtH6M26nPumL4Zr4D6uGnAmPf9xnlX lokOn2Qxf/mBldsL41PDbEpYhZvvn5kJ/Z9Qh7Fks/hfTbbJowARAQABzSxBbWVsaWEgQW5k ZXJzZG90dGVyIDxhbWVsaWFAYW5kZXJzZG90dGVyLmNjPsLBlwQTAQgAQQIbIwUJCWYBgAUL CQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgBYhBD1dtsq4UrmIBVpqb/7xwpS06AtVBQJY1pdiAhkB AAoJEP7xwpS06AtVI0sP/Al6eUycymdT1R7v0uEQv4coonnOUV6FKj/4wc+wM+A0h7vlqADr j4nS7RRSQRUo8xJ9tvR9J1Eyske5bvakOYv64f9PrNY1Z6ABhJzK34kJxekEfeLmpXAB4wst GhD8dGC/z/b9Oau0AW1GWIP0eNWq4acDf9Qf+j0wqQi25OZUXnu5KeUX7mvPTHKZLyEZlwHV atXmZHWKnQWtEPZTQfv/zESsoBAm1TbaLapgxVG9uLW+I9kj72TB/AZ5hMSKMYWZ2dC+8eEs Xd22tn6907aUmZhFT89jbEyS996WeZ+SQ5G1Okrq02qYXcCi5vm3AuvLlbRYHguh42TLaVq1 er7PiYOYH77FFmnZWW6ChFnf7xsDep2tpNxn+QUZLgO3+5kL7TfO7D2H57kjVVMdkNn+01nz kfcn76K7nuU6Dc4pItPzbDndhdxulnm9cicOEfGQqvta9ffxk4YWyAu9PUNARVRNf6OnoDQQ Zo8l1o37q9PFXJyQwzvxdd9u6uzTny2wp9eig75pD3dYHCRIQeYmkv1kB81mc86cwgvuw1Qy /QwiCBNXSSuIvLO78b+/dB0DLVQC/c6gtyWXRpC4ysF4EaEZophjT60d12YRanR+fWuH+qu2 wsT+z1d4tC5/6UJMPr3bxREh9JHThm5Y3cDBmcn0PGqtDKkwjCkqex5bzsFNBFjWlnsBEADF jusaTo9W8VeWluCK/oJqyyyF1wMvou0ldfuoOpUZrOqsY67TM7yBqsv5COPVgAV+xp+axor5 oHWxibd283w0Ok4dK6tvtNGwUqyDRlHtQ92DG/u4Tg5eOwrHNUn73/rfeBD9KhKAXcNKKPoc cLgR8oQTXpO7eRo+0NI52pXQ6LdZ0wddYeTcHglsNKN1TK+CyYS7xfGolsZXXoBOKcyhfj/c kPFVIHWpGpEtcYWTZWvXgLprzHvpKzkzNyBwejaXE+bqCT2dRl3omI/e2t3Vq33hFUUSAdxr FF29vMX/YsSnYqsFOIoayna+TRsDFAfZvbvHBOMckeJzvA8yBdadw7CM08Uw8wqH7n9BA3oq //QpZJekPfrc2E9nM9H0d51T0uStLMbYDWdwxvfPA3p9z8L91vobt8bM/Jbhl9h+X2Yq9oBC iTI7b2izYd9FVG4BwBIdeh3bh9R9HExgRjF3XQ6uafT3pcVOPASdv9FRUYH1Va7QWQifoha0 B7UXKx1OpX1Z6XR2NQ9KN2MvlwvBKdHtm6tBzUIFzW6D8vUOxiYKBA4fppJt/LJF4jsaCEyI /CVQnkC0yL5DKFOdigxTipwEL9Uc6r7VfR5OAGFd6vzuJFy+j+/WhzaVT1oVYp6eQXh0bBtq qH2Mq9sAMnIjvaNYIKiQKgMa1Pa3OWQbQQARAQABwsF8BBgBCAAmFiEEPV22yrhSuYgFWmpv /vHClLToC1UFAljWlnsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQ/vHClLToC1XnRw//W4lzE8FddceKXGRwO/T1 u4uzH9EjPCj+3/eHCrLI+h1m7QPyH1DrFAtZBoA6UoaF0+vIAJXM9/HI1FZ09EUdJr5X/+YR EErFom4DbE1FK8fpK1/Hw2zI+7Xa8bVkmYrKhMGhi1Gq6Dtksn/H4USdJL53ZPt10SVNK7H3 w93Yp1GC4+0zWjfrsKfsHYZZr2SZyb5/gZlngfgaqiQLhIcPYmiU1GQi9QWkGxWRxk0YQXBw hekewvgltATxlRSCwguAi4uck9fAct9GGdpsshSOgAb9YIAnEV3EqaGnf0PknXp3vNHAZWrf M+RyuNdm2L5TjDU0rIrvyqGP3pR33cREGOAil5Sz2uFArmwsPt8VffbEXlf7qZqRBKaYeKt0 qnxKMx1+e1JilVsfb8qtnAWAFDyR0HMlVj/dvGAmq/auPSOAUWRSnDRyT6rv/vXxrbkL4uxW ax46qdpDhR15mS5MTng6b5b3Uox7xlveo/Sx71AdNf4goPvB/ntv0DiMuh+fmLGk3zrxs4Xd 30Sx+qQwVaXR5xc5rgnF81wvfmuAOb2eP9mpD6DoabkpxC8fLk17AK7Q1ZTgcZ+8XLRFnavd PrwCa9RU0BF53lJMSTPzyBcMwZ4sqA6Z5IRFVt7rEbSeeD8REiawo+FvVt9j0fKdNEBeaJ3W Y5hlhNPcUXr4q1U= Organization: ARTICLE19 Cc: gaia Message-ID: <3ee64859-50b9-8bf9-2f41-da7434b2fa50@article19.org> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 20:22:17 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2899a801-f595-ceaa-ccba-8860fc3c18fb@pangea.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US-large X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: c60e8641cd90816f132602f5e1e6de64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:22:27 -0000 On 2018-10-20 19:18, Leandro Navarro wrote: > > Hi all, interesting discussion, > > On 20/10/18 13:30, Michael J. Oghia wrote: >> Hi Amelia, Sonia, all: >> >> Forgive my ignorance, but I'm quite surprised to hear that USO/USF >> within the EU context. I find it a bit disheartening, honestly. For >> much time now, I've seen USO/USF as a positive policy option to >> encourage network diversity and especially help small networks or >> networks working in rural/remote areas (e.g.., CNs). > > USO in my limited understanding usually works against small networks, > and nearly always only in favor of the largest "universal" (national) > telecoms. The funds are given to a single (e.g. BT in UK, Telefonica > in ES) national operator in exchange of connecting more of the > unconnected users with a minimal service under a cost threshold. > > For instance, the UK recently has been revising the USO policy: > > https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-81= 46#fullreport > BEREC has made a study here: https://berec.europa.eu/eng/document_register/subject_matter/berec/downlo= ad/0/6973-berec-update-survey-on-the-implementatio_0.pdf Among the six countries that have no USO in the EU, only Germany doesn't have great infrastructure and three have very OK infra (EE, SE and RO). US provisions can work out OK, but the problem is in the information asymmetry: the big companies will be much better placed to argue with regulators that funds should go to *them*. A USO strategy needs to take into account this information asymmetry/power imbalance at the regulator/regulatee level (can it be countered? how?). best regards, Amelia > They are targeting a cost threshold of =C2=A33,400 per connection (limi= t > from the total cost of implementation of several billions of GBP) to > provide 10/1 Mbps connection. BT is the only USO provider (KCOM in a > specific area for curious reasons). As you can see the focus is > bringing more "customers" matching a minimum of quality by "feeding" > the largest (most capable?) operator in that country. > > https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/03/government-details-final-= 10mbps-for-all-uk-broadband-uso-design.html > > For instance, one fibre community network fears the effect of that: > > https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broad= band-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html > > However there can be alternative models, where the funds are not given > to just one operator, but to every citizen that qualifies. Bottom-up > instead of top-down. That may contribute to increase alternatives and > not just reinforce the largest operators (at the exchange of moving to > a more "feudal" model): https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/ > > We also have/had a related discussion in the IRTF GAIA WG, and > probably will reappear in the next IGF in the presentation of the next > Global Information Society Watch report around community networks: > > https://www.intgovforum.org/multilingual/es/content/igf-2018-apc-giswat= ch-launch > > Cheers, Leandro. > >> >> Given my lack of experience with actually building networks, though, >> perhaps this is just naivety and wishful thinking on my part. I'm >> glad that Sonia replied, though, because I had A4AI's 2018 paper >> >> on USO/USF in mind when drafting this email =E2=80=93 though models (a= nd >> their outcomes) differ based on country policy, regional context, >> politics, the amount of incumbent operators, etc. etc. I also >> appreciate her qualification that, traditionally, USO have been more >> effective in poorer countries (which is in line with my thought). >> >> So, thank you for clarifying=C2=A0@Sonia, and I'd be very interested i= n a >> webinar on this. Please share the 2018 report next week when it's >> published (I'm really interested in the policy implications >> surrounding connectivity). >> >> Best, >> -Michael >> >> On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:07 AM Sonia Jorge >> > > wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a >> webinar/conference call among interested people? Steve, what do >> you think? I would be happy to join a stimulating discussion on >> the topic, starting with your blog and the Access Model.=C2=A0 >> >> Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything >> you may have) that shows that relationship between USO and >> quality of infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe >> but open to be proven wrong.=C2=A0 >> >> Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO >> have been more instrumental are also countries that have >> traditionally been poorer and behind in terms of infrastructure >> development; this is certainly the case in some Southern European >> countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well. So the level >> of economic development overall is a key variable.=C2=A0 >> >> As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a >> lot here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports >> we produced and that can add to the discussion.=C2=A0 >> - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability >> Report:=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. N= ote >> that the 2018 report will be launched and published on Tuesday >> and addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, >> specially on costs associated with infrastructure investment >> - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and >> challenges:=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/affordable-internet-access-the-c= ost-challenge/ >> - For those interested in USFs in Africa, >> see=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-un= tapped-resource-to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/ >> >> Best, >> Sonia Jorge >> Executive Director, A4AI >> Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation >> 1-617-905-7819 >> >> On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter >> > wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal >>> Service >>> Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also >>> typically have >>> worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well >>> applied. >>> Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it >>> faces >>> off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The >>> service >>> provider has information advantage and typically a better >>> relationship >>> to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a >>> communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African >>> markets >>> and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues >>> faced in >>> various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar >>> difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit >>> theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information >>> asymmetries? >>> >>> As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators >>> A, B and >>> C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) al= so >>> incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. >>> That's >>> fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is >>> owned by a >>> few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is >>> fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's = the >>> main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of >>> 1999 in >>> the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile >>> infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different >>> actors >>> have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or wh= ere >>> there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am = I >>> misunderstanding something? >>> >>> best regards, >>> >>> Amelia >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: >>>> Hi Mallory, >>>> >>>> Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I think you are on exactly the right trac= k in >>>> terms >>>> of thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks to Erick Huerta = of >>>> Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economi= c >>>> historian, Fernand Braudel.=C2=A0 Braudel argues that the world = has >>>> three >>>> economies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which is the well-know= n >>>> capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game= in >>>> theory for every player.=C2=A0 Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all t= he usual >>>> suspects form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The second economy is = the >>>> Local >>>> Economy where services are specific to the city/community where = you >>>> live.=C2=A0 This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or= even >>>> larger service provider which offers services that grow out of >>>> local >>>> demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the >>>> Global >>>> Economy.=C2=A0 The third economy is the Subsistence economy wher= e market >>>> forces may not operate because there is not sufficient tradition= al >>>> capital to make it work.=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal= economy >>>> with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly >>>> contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by >>>> traditional statistics.=C2=A0 And woven among these are both >>>> commercial and >>>> commons models, which can operate with varying success at the >>>> different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>>> >>>> When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation = has >>>> only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that >>>> there is >>>> a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives >>>> in the >>>> Local and Subsistence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>>> >>>> For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World >>>> Bank's >>>> Access Gap model >>>> .=C2=A0It >>>> is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimension= al; >>>> assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all >>>> possible >>>> outcomes. >>>> >>>> Writing more about this shortly. >>>> >>>> Cheers... Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel >>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hi Steve, >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I= really >>>> enjoyed it.. I >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0think the metaphor is solid economically. And = politically, >>>> well, that >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0could be another post in and of itself. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The agrarian commons would of course be ideal,= but what we >>>> have is a >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sort of old-world economic structure that poli= tically >>>> controls and >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0profits from (what should be) the commons. Thi= s sets you up >>>> nicely to >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0call for modern economic models ranging from s= quarely >>>> capitalist to >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0socialist, and even (back to) the commons! >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest= to those who have >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0raised >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0issues of centralisation on the list in the pa= st. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-Mallory >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre >>>>> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just >>>>> about >>>>> everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>>>> >>>>> https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ >>>>> >>>>> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reactions >>>>> you may have.=C2=A0 >>>>> >>>>> Thanks..... Steve Song >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> gaia mailing list >>>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-- >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Mallory Knodel >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Head of Digital :: article19.org >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2= =A0 B071 0C32 A271 >>>> BD3C C780 >>>> >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0______________________________________________= _ >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia mailing list >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia@irtf.org >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> +1 902 529 0046 >>>> stevesong@nsrc.org >>>> >>>> http://nsrc..org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> hrpc mailing list >>>> hrpc@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> >>> >>> --=20 >>> Amelia Andersdotter >>> Technical Consultant, Digital Programme >>> >>> ARTICLE19 >>> www.article19.org >>> >>> PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gaia mailing list >>> gaia@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Sat Oct 20 11:27:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2170C130DC8; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:27:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QQrag0QdZNRk; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E673412F1A2; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gDvy0-0005aD-IX; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 20:27:18 +0200 To: Henning Schulzrinne Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, Gaia References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> From: Amelia Andersdotter Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=amelia@article19.org; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US-large Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 83b7c7fca54da338aa3d4d8066e35af0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:27:24 -0000 On 2018-10-20 18:51, Henning Schulzrinne wrote: > I'm not sure which countries you are specifically referring to, but in > the US, we have a combination of > * no USO in many states (and USO is only for voice service) > * no loop unbundling > * and essentially no facilities-based competition except where cable > already had offered a video product before the Internet came around > * and among the highest per-month prices for residential broadband > (the lowest unbundled price is usually $65 to $70, once you add fees, > taxes, surcharges and so on). > > (There are a few exceptions, such as some local wireless providers in > rural areas and a few rural electric cooperatives, but the number of > customers served is well below 5% market share.) > > Are there countries that actually overbuild fiber at a significant scal= e? > Sweden might be a good case for you to study. Wholesale fibre companies have been "warring" with each other to get to do roll-out in semi-rural areas (they target households with roll-out offers. See for instance this article (written by myself in Swedish) about village networks: https://www.dt.se/artikel/opinion/ledare/amelia-andersdotter-lokalt-engag= emang-gor-att-dalarnas-landsbygd-ofta-ar-battre-uppkopplad-an-storstan It's about connectivity here: https://www.google.com/maps/place/790+91+Gr%C3%B6velsj%C3%B6n/@62.0964529= ,12.3044386,15z/data=3D!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x4669578fd00f3451:0x50fc065359= 534d20!8m2!3d62.0964536!4d12.3131934 "Overbuilding" is still pushing it: normally any individual household does not end up with more than one fibre connection. best, Amelia > Henning > > On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 5:33 AM Amelia Andersdotter > > wrote: > > Hi all, > > It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Servi= ce > Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically > have > worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applie= d. > Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it fa= ces > off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The servi= ce > provider has information advantage and typically a better relations= hip > to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a > communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African > markets > and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues > faced in > various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar > difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit > theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information > asymmetries? > > As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, > B and > C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also > incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. Tha= t's > fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is > owned by a > few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is > fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's th= e > main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 = in > the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile > infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different act= ors > have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or wher= e > there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I > misunderstanding something? > > best regards, > > Amelia > > > > On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: > > Hi Mallory, > > > > Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I think you are on exactly the right track= in > terms > > of thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks to Erick Huerta o= f > > Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic > > historian, Fernand Braudel.=C2=A0 Braudel argues that the world h= as three > > economies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which is the well-known > > capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game = in > > theory for every player.=C2=A0 Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all th= e usual > > suspects form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The second economy is t= he Local > > Economy where services are specific to the city/community where y= ou > > live.=C2=A0 This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or = even > > larger service provider which offers services that grow out of lo= cal > > demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the > Global > > Economy.=C2=A0 The third economy is the Subsistence economy where= market > > forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditiona= l > > capital to make it work.=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal = economy > > with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly > > contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by > > traditional statistics.=C2=A0 And woven among these are both > commercial and > > commons models, which can operate with varying success at the > > different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > > > When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation h= as > > only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that > there is > > a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives > in the > > Local and Subsistence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0 > > > > For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World > Bank's > > Access Gap model > > > .=C2=A0It > > is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensiona= l; > > assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all > possible > > outcomes. > > > > Writing more about this shortly. > > > > Cheers... Steve > > > > > > On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel > > > >> > wrote: > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Steve, > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I= really > enjoyed it. I > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0think the metaphor is solid economically. And = politically, > well, that > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could be another post in and of itself. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The agrarian commons would of course be ideal,= but what we > have is a > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sort of old-world economic structure that poli= tically > controls and > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0profits from (what should be) the commons. Thi= s sets you up > nicely to > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0call for modern economic models ranging from s= quarely > capitalist to > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0socialist, and even (back to) the commons! > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest= to those who have > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0raised > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0issues of centralisation on the list in the pa= st. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Mallory > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Hi all, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> This is a reflection on the current state of= terrestrial fibre > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I = think applies > just about > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-= feudalism/ > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Curious to know how apt you feel the metapho= r is or any other > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reactions > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> you may have.=C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Thanks.... Steve Song > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> ____________________________________________= ___ > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> gaia mailing list > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> gaia@irtf.org > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mallory Knodel > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Head of Digital :: article19.org > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2= =A0 B071 0C32 A271 > BD3C C780 > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0______________________________________________= _ > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gaia mailing list > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gaia@irtf.org > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > > > > -- > > +1 902 529 0046 > > stevesong@nsrc.org > > > > http://nsrc..org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > --=20 > Amelia Andersdotter > Technical Consultant, Digital Programme > > ARTICLE19 > www.article19.org > > PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 From nobody Sat Oct 20 12:03:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEE3130DEE for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:03:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0sxWlG2Y96XM for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls6.std.com [192.74.137.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 351D9130EB4 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w9KJ3F2D015668; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 15:03:17 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w9KJ3FjJ001903; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 15:03:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23499.31731.649351.833803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 15:03:15 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: hrpc@irtf.org In-Reply-To: References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 19:03:38 -0000 I have mentioned MARC, SKU, RFID, ISBN, Library of Congress Classification System, even Xanadu, etc in side conversations on this topic. Mostly to champion mechanism over policy as I said in my note being responded to here. Something which many of those have in common is they are limited to a very large level of granularity. For example MARC might suggest the topic or topics of a book but makes no attempt, for example, to identify or categorize images within a book. Modern computing and networking has made a very fine level of granularity possible. To say this sort of thing has long existed outside of the computing realm is, to me, tantamount to noting that people tabulated numbers prior to computing. True, but at some point a difference in quantity becomes a difference in quality. I don't think there should be any attempt here to actually populate such a mechanism, only to suggest a standardized format and technology. Much like DNS in spirit, for example. As to keywords, a few thoughts: DNS is basically a hierarchical keyword system with a mixture of stringent controls (e.g., on TLDs) and almost no control on semantics. With the exception of a handful of TLDs -- .EDU, .COOP, there must be others, .BANK? .MUSEUM? Some ccTLDs and regional TLDs -- most any SLD string less than 64 characters can be registered in most any TLD. Yet the format and technology (mechanisms) for DNS lookups is well-defined and generally adhered to as is the system of registries and registrars and guarantee of uniqueness for example. I believe Nalini brought up the appropriateness of this topic to this group and whether a new group should be created but I think the general suggestion was that there wasn't all that much traffic here, there could be some overlap and synergy, so why not continue and see where it goes? At any rate what I do not have any interest in is actually trying to populate a tagging mechanism. Where I do think there is a common interest is in standardizing a mechanism and trying to ensure that it is accessible both in control and usage by anyone and not only central authorities: An open standard. The draft tries to document that this "tagging" is going on ad hoc globally so perhaps some attempt to propose a standard for it would be worthwhile. Finally, I don't believe that tagging is at all limited to textual content. Currently, I would guess, the most "tagged" content on the internet tends to be images, specifically the well known "NSFW" indicator. And much of that is either voluntarily tagged by the publisher (as it were), some informal site moderation process, or some automated means of recognizing features in images. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Sat Oct 20 12:29:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249DE130DEE for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OmHsdvDLHv2C for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7384128CE4 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id r190-v6so5581941pgr.13 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:29:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=68v2s0SwTQyx0/IQ4gz+0BE7DDVCN3yICB243gJaxic=; b=lOxOKFeZcxTTmap9aG9bCpr0wK7lsimItDAWzu5nvk6LnV/dzsDm4UOBM+1m0P6l+u STrfJZ6ogMTlp0TamFXKtiAiNUY2rKn6eyhkWBBVpz2eizOP1qV7CRNqpCtroZb8oI3B lAlz9yL8f0+eeyxG6Xt05Y46OKnTj+G2iQdwfb5sYg4hi3TYiu8tktvcKWPvgrLeKetv TZ3/whnqjWUeUxb8CNqwhwk37eyyYPwMxkSdwTKIr5SWJ3GO6OLMFSuNx2spKBDY8372 yY02eGtzxeroiV+pQDtfD5/SrnFufW0ShzVTWECmXI3rjjNjISaqdzzv1bMfo6DQh34R bnTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=68v2s0SwTQyx0/IQ4gz+0BE7DDVCN3yICB243gJaxic=; b=ks32rfdzZnGE0Bx+gxf8N4ZOsWw1/bTAMDiyVmXVQ/Oyur2b56tpQv1fBflzC4kL6i QMQW3GjormbSFw8hgRH3SP+Z9P24RILvoH3svvFyeXyGMSFnQ8P6eDRfEli1+8LZZ5U4 5KzYzw/EKBXmCFdvI9I5r6TddxpsIsMyVkTOJhj5azAyc9P1dqsXdFQv+edGlBE6Pk5E nm3jkeoRIw8pnlAdJrN74Jg1D0ENbXXnepOBh8MEO2F/MuqKnuvT1sHWyp/v2obBkIS0 DMpmO2EKX2GM59tb/dYrp/MIgPYGEyFUVDuoFOszPB1TzYvcfifZNBqqc+Crqgjm4TBu SGoA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohpTbo+w0PSbhk6AfZpaDKGKUxdAButu3sA3V2AbQONrGBlM1Kj DHrL/jUHKWA2GeVNzjwV3Gi3RjOtWw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61txqsAqmp4iPV5CGHVBYGY0ioFoQ6ZVUgENXNX+TpyRS978XL5miH7uDZ2IrdP8/lBO9/PEA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:d00b:: with SMTP id z11-v6mr37811199pgf.317.1540063792907; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aspen.local (216-67-35-146-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.35.146]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i29-v6sm43316333pfj.82.2018.10.20.12.29.51 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:29:52 -0700 (PDT) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <23499.31731.649351.833803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:29:50 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <23499.31731.649351.833803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 19:29:55 -0000 Well, look - even leaving aside the fact that this is a research group working on human rights issues, not a working group developing standards - at this point I think that it's pretty clear that the world has moved on from subject/content tagging to more sophisticated retrieval mechanisms. Fortunately we've now got the computational horsepower, massive storage, and sufficient algorithmic progress that it's no longer necessary to do subject tagging, in general. Be that as it may, what you're discussing here is really not what's in the document mentioned in the subject header (mistagged, I guess), and the fact that there's not much traffic on this mailing doesn't seem to me to justify having an off-topic discussion here (I can think of a number of IETF mailing lists which are quiet at the moment). At any rate, what you're proposing outside of the document is redundant with existing tagging mechanisms and frankly a bit retrograde in terms of how retrieval is done. Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis From nobody Sat Oct 20 12:57:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405A8130DD2 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:57:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KzcaYHHJ7chs for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls6.std.com [192.74.137.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1DB1128CE4 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcls8.std.com (pcls8.std.com [192.74.137.148]) by TheWorld.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w9KJvMrC013341 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 15:57:24 -0400 Received: from pcls8 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcls8.std.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w9KJsEx9003667 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 15:54:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <23499.34790.823473.558795@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 15:54:14 -0400 From: bzs@theworld.com To: hrpc@irtf.org In-Reply-To: References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <23499.31731.649351.833803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 24.3.1 (x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 19:57:35 -0000 I don't know what any of this has to do with content retrieval, perhaps there's some fundamental misunderstanding of the topic? Clearly tagging and filtering are going on as the referenced draft tries to document and categorize though I would be surprised if anyone doubts the general claim. A lot of what is going on currently has human rights implications particularly in its opacity and ad hoc nature, also discussed in the draft. The question this leads to is: Is there any value in proposing an open standard for content tagging and, thus, encouragement of a more transparent and open infrastructure to effect it? At any rate I will look for others' reactions. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* From nobody Sat Oct 20 13:47:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285A9130E77 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:47:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D6duwDTmzSEK for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42a.google.com (mail-pf1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B152D12D4E6 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id m77-v6so18034561pfi.8 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:47:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OOc1riTVi4ZXkkcqb6DZIFvPf5zDsbl1+9PTSuGm5Tw=; b=zKBybkWyJ7j4llWfbtG2HLPKI8u8/+Y1GxMlSeJAJNjTlSLwgwGjxC5kdFmr0l1PGQ 0AvZOuEemhOXoxICixlS9dHX4F5lnQL0xHBTnU5wDvZ4RDOHG/KeURHg/KyU7yyozDPc y/29eheTYWLqn+sqXCDHv68taRypyqRLJw/NXtbyLkk8dab36aIX2ajJv46Bxzg1jMq/ 6sSwHv7IbLN7qTeEWfX3kNIf4amx/wG913AuBdH4eHasW948kBCq7HZhXnxeW719ifg6 JPkHu1sR0Nz9QTIVibg5IQ+jy+CKoSzpRfqgTwLtTxcXITnTztis22qsmVFyyAwikwg/ 26Sw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OOc1riTVi4ZXkkcqb6DZIFvPf5zDsbl1+9PTSuGm5Tw=; b=X+3yFBgEpVk+hP4bGmMHjWsOSAORVhvXObpjx+saKaVaJTQDYV1YwgHN2BXPPWlGEU 8VfcosUFMtn4oR3hfYqcQsUGzMWPY+w9K/ehaah3OVDNjT8aaU4ohn22vatjQt8OCx2E ym4CeIbFBsg+KqRz4vBOpsRAPg6nt2QnhAAGXC1z/AUewhoyvTwqC5zS2VEpI6PP6suC 20EN14Cl7tSy+Vd24bPdvq/mqH3gQk6eyaM2hvOPbmH2O5+0gmo3aK3bBd5mFziTmzud vG4QzjLtYZoDgXqxcvTkxCwZtdKeSTBVlgezReuBERkvxMOJpw+OCfPzvVmB0jZaS0ww TTsA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojJhIvY7gJdNqRzsCfUSCvAVMO+Oc/Y6LxUvfJECgeQ/ZCfqZ+/ bx2ghlGlxKeJmUQqLXvznSEPaGqvkg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63R7zE+f/yrYqCQUrfjRBgpERt0nE8jG7hhzpIl/xlD7hSMjb+3m8myR+ZOCWLPlR1yTTx5IQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:5d55:: with SMTP id o21-v6mr36860214pgm.349.1540068462805; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aspen.local (216-67-35-146-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.35.146]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t11-v6sm35219783pgn.38.2018.10.20.13.47.41 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:47:42 -0700 (PDT) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <23499.31731.649351.833803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <23499.34790.823473.558795@gargle.gargle.HOWL> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: <776915cb-21ca-10c9-f68d-afe97dc4dfb1@nomountain.net> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:47:40 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <23499.34790.823473.558795@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 20:47:45 -0000 It seems to me that this would be an appropriate situation for requesting a non-WG mailing list from the IETF secretariat, rather than continuing to drag this list off-topic. And putting my IAB hat back on for a moment, I would hope that any future draft on this topic would address why none of the existing standards are adequate, vocabulary control (i.e. would there be a controlled vocabulary and if so, whether or not you'd be requesting a new IANA registry, how you'd deal with synonyms and translation issues), and transport (for example, would you also be requesting a new HTTP header?). Thanks, Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis From nobody Sat Oct 20 13:57:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1169712D4E6 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:57:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QVMhcptxSx1A for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic314-20.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic314-20.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.132.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 664F81293FB for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:57:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1540069063; bh=t7GMjqpdMpF/Wqy0zIYtq9RVyaePCzKy4WdHTdBvYYw=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=OHCzNkVUFVOyXxpGT3UiHM4EN/DT2hXjN3necSLcMCTuc95B5guQzMNPkscHbx7Yo9qLkkBjFiDImBcWMbOZL2p8g+4KxJezU4b5lMOdRp/t9Ehmru7OuelU0V518FsSwuvthYfYivmn0McCoQGI5DDJZfYUrHUCKOZdJeBgRSvTqBcNSxB+y3G7hqYd/KsbKYLNhuRYQyQVAnV8wYM3efU28RIVESO7fQCSEysz/ft3KuTnegNBlkSBUtG8Im0LU/vcCWDRMV59M1y8pj7gvulOYz4/tJ0+8RCu+m6WNHH4ZQdLTvhZcpEh8SgsqduAAQM1NU69lABViAwAgtPlJQ== X-YMail-OSG: _UeY1T4VM1m2PvG.FThoy9vSmLd92KSsyKU2JL5aH4abuEyC5e.uhy.mDwuo8CW ixZeDBxHrKJfeu4CXb9AtoPb00q0SoUgPZ0TPRhOBob8y.qPIYMj.bhQqlZ6ZB.n_JoMTF2G_7Yr WlNHD7pvVBLMqaUv4P_xVb36A38k4_XQBnu4qMWdPjqUfj.QAejIZmlXQsrOzYIZhUeEHOH6F2fD 0xm8uB7O93eN_HaSXZwQi8wv1iPV41uhlDCKdy3gZ5oQz98PqfdutlFnD3jxvyXHvTyEmbOu.a9f lK4.Mrz1cWIsm12xsOIbHKuRlp0F198YEINfjkVw5S8eBRiUoiT.Bq1zJ1D__vVu0vbM7SYGJ7YD b6n23vHJz_rrM1tMeF7X3bZpBuC6rTKLbOkt_Yb9_vrrs78AvYEFfb941WFthilFq3B2xQr.fLqC fZOK6Xdz4F.KMTlmI949fRe_i85GIG53J39sqycNuxwRiGFlr9BRe5sNhdPXpVGP9SKhAPIvu.dx PkB2q_4zQvJc_gnQ7ojhi0SaMWD.1yHK.d.FEkZUuBjFyzoSY62YViHbr66qKiNslHHME2PLzMGx 7ANge6G_wxfjWP9wTb9uKl3OgHQTek4MOMLIpR7iuIfLHqi8OPrR0.NZtiFKIBeiHweTT6yAFeu3 F3C4RvjArP2itt5Mi0tPzcVjhq31DykLEUVZ9Fpz466cPh62CRcw4ZJ.vPH_VPJWkJ0k_viWcZw4 NrZ0vQcgHdWDq7_i.g_SKgW3ob1f0EEx.bGKwPCjRzXxjU5EG4OU7uAkBtpfWE5ivoihPKepQ8ha 1ESmC3Z0uQRsplYhArdvYnQ_pJeqDV761nz90_vVcGiBA7wFFTnbwiV2G0hvrMYAb5rjJRGQS48C tZ1xVrB0wLYRXPKC6oMitTY.zr5yDWWj7A8YizA7J2iJguK29qonT5SWBBn0XD9ShabPbaTBMrtx ifcLZzk8VZQQrO_aekc.D2zKJXytFY7hStYTgUbbCRJVi7AGDX9y4mGC5ibw43EhsdUairXT.GVu 8M.gT3OArpxw.DUZrLEjtvQE9yypzjS2woXI55tK63To5l0mZlu.gEo0tX3IPOepf Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 20:57:43 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 20:57:39 +0000 (UTC) From: Bill Jouris Reply-To: Bill Jouris To: "bzs@theworld.com" , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <785793937.13310338.1540069059337@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <23499.31731.649351.833803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <23499.31731.649351.833803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13310337_1606179565.1540069059335" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12512 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:62.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/62.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 20:57:47 -0000 ------=_Part_13310337_1606179565.1540069059335 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Modern computing and networking has made a very fine level of granularity possible. In fact, this kind of classification seems practically made to order for an= AI application.=C2=A0 Perhaps one of those which learns as it goes along. Bill Jouris Inside Products From: "bzs@theworld.com" To: hrpc@irtf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2018 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter= -00.txt =20 I have mentioned MARC, SKU, RFID, ISBN, Library of Congress Classification System, even Xanadu, etc in side conversations on this topic. Mostly to champion mechanism over policy as I said in my note being responded to here. Something which many of those have in common is they are limited to a very large level of granularity. For example MARC might suggest the topic or topics of a book but makes no attempt, for example, to identify or categorize images within a book. Modern computing and networking has made a very fine level of granularity possible. To say this sort of thing has long existed outside of the computing realm is, to me, tantamount to noting that people tabulated numbers prior to computing. True, but at some point a difference in quantity becomes a difference in quality. I don't think there should be any attempt here to actually populate such a mechanism, only to suggest a standardized format and technology. Much like DNS in spirit, for example. As to keywords, a few thoughts: DNS is basically a hierarchical keyword system with a mixture of stringent controls (e.g., on TLDs) and almost no control on semantics. With the exception of a handful of TLDs -- .EDU, .COOP, there must be others, .BANK? .MUSEUM? Some ccTLDs and regional TLDs -- most any SLD string less than 64 characters can be registered in most any TLD. Yet the format and technology (mechanisms) for DNS lookups is well-defined and generally adhered to as is the system of registries and registrars and guarantee of uniqueness for example. I believe Nalini brought up the appropriateness of this topic to this group and whether a new group should be created but I think the general suggestion was that there wasn't all that much traffic here, there could be some overlap and synergy, so why not continue and see where it goes? At any rate what I do not have any interest in is actually trying to populate a tagging mechanism. Where I do think there is a common interest is in standardizing a mechanism and trying to ensure that it is accessible both in control and usage by anyone and not only central authorities: An open standard. The draft tries to document that this "tagging" is going on ad hoc globally so perhaps some attempt to propose a standard for it would be worthwhile. Finally, I don't believe that tagging is at all limited to textual content. Currently, I would guess, the most "tagged" content on the internet tends to be images, specifically the well known "NSFW" indicator. And much of that is either voluntarily tagged by the publisher (as it were), some informal site moderation process, or some automated means of recognizing features in images. --=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | bzs@TheWorld.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 800-T= HE-WRLD The World: Since 1989=C2=A0 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_13310337_1606179565.1540069059335 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Modern computing and net= working has made a very fine level of
granularity possible.

In fact, this kind of classification seems= practically made to order for an AI application.  Perhaps one of thos= e which learns as it goes along.

Bill Jouris
<= /span>
Inside Products

From: "bzs@thew= orld.com" <bzs@theworld.com>
S= ent: Saturday, October 20, 2018 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification = for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt


I have men= tioned MARC, SKU, RFID, ISBN, Library of Congress
Classif= ication System, even Xanadu, etc in side conversations on this
topic. Mostly to champion mechanism over policy as I said in my note<= br clear=3D"none">being responded to here.

Something which many of those have in common is they are limited to a<= br clear=3D"none">very large level of granularity. For example MARC might s= uggest the
topic or topics of a book but makes no attempt= , for example, to
identify or categorize images within a = book.

Modern computing and networking = has made a very fine level of
granularity possible.

To say this sort of thing has long existed = outside of the computing
realm is, to me, tantamount to n= oting that people tabulated numbers
prior to computing.
True, but at some point a difference in= quantity becomes a difference
in quality.

I don't think there should be any attempt here to ac= tually populate
such a mechanism, only to suggest a stand= ardized format and
technology. Much like DNS in spirit, f= or example.

As to keywords, a few thou= ghts:

DNS is basically a hierarchical = keyword system with a mixture of
stringent controls (e.g.= , on TLDs) and almost no control on semantics.

With the exception of a handful of TLDs -- .EDU, .COOP, there mus= t be
others, .BANK? .MUSEUM? Some ccTLDs and regional TLD= s -- most any SLD
string less than 64 characters can be r= egistered in most any TLD.

Yet the for= mat and technology (mechanisms) for DNS lookups is
well-d= efined and generally adhered to as is the system of registries
and registrars and guarantee of uniqueness for example.

I believe Nalini brought up the appropriateness of = this topic to this
group and whether a new group should b= e created but I think the
general suggestion was that the= re wasn't all that much traffic here,
there could be some= overlap and synergy, so why not continue and see
where i= t goes?

At any rate what I do not have= any interest in is actually trying to
populate a tagging= mechanism.

Where I do think there is = a common interest is in standardizing a
mechanism and try= ing to ensure that it is accessible both in control
and u= sage by anyone and not only central authorities: An open
= standard.

The draft tries to document = that this "tagging" is going on ad hoc
globally so perhap= s some attempt to propose a standard for it would be
wort= hwhile.

Finally, I don't believe that = tagging is at all limited to textual
content.

Currently, I would guess, the most "tagged" conte= nt on the internet
tends to be images, specifically the w= ell known "NSFW" indicator. And
much of that is either vo= luntarily tagged by the publisher (as it
were), some info= rmal site moderation process, or some automated means
of = recognizing features in images.

--         -Barry Shein
=
Software Tool & Die    | bzs@T= heWorld.com            | http://www.TheWorld.= com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD&n= bsp;     | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989&= nbsp; | A Public Information Utility | *oo*


_____________________= __________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.ir= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


------=_Part_13310337_1606179565.1540069059335-- From nobody Sat Oct 20 14:54:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7CF130EFA for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:54:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iiL8WOvtrpWM for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2F2B130EF1 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE9926A351; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:54:17 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1540072457; bh=VE2qQKbuuq6LRNeSEAi4vmvGkIm/WjmjeXSjdV8hq6o=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=6szSxomKGWmXBdtmjlh59ZlpBRSKiUd81IIoebqNHu3mZKRPCsOvSv8ZER70ze8zf w5G5g2qHb3Q9C6finDdMxm2Cvud7OLNof/UAhPzcI46GojlyAJ9Ekz3vlJlIZVFSDX bF8gKdN26YLN+tHSxGOIBGB6TuqjSlIDA+Qsh/UFWrnqF5n1ykmnRxsAaT8SGgGX+9 /PTUzjKLGcn9p2TOd+dL33zGZVhJNnKhznmgwSahcXQ5PbGmPXtW1Qjmj4Xt59lLer jO/dLKNRgqZNlHSjcU+PafAkD4j16sttZdRYGMWbCSIzAz/wvjoyIkUAPXNZNMB15f A9lMl2ojXFfUw== Received: from null (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 854E63C04D7; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:54:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:54:16 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Fred Baker , Melinda Shore Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_19143_716264990.1540072457431" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev18 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 21:54:25 -0000 ------=_Part_19143_716264990.1540072457431 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 20 ottobre 2018 alle 10.07 Fred Baker < fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com > ha scritto: > > My thought is that we're welcome to beat any drums we want on the topic of filtering. We're unlikely to do much more than turn electrical potential into hot air. The first example I mentioned is a matter of law, and governmental agencies probably don't monitor this list. The second is a service that administrators use by choice, and they discriminate against malware for financial and security reasons. The third is frequently a reason that Internet access actually works. > My motivation for attempting to work on this follows from having noticed an inherent tension. As you point out, there will be cases when filtering is bad, cases in which filtering is good, and cases in which it may be bad or good but it is also unavoidable since it is mandated by force by people (governments) that have the mandate to do so. At the same time, the IETF seems to churn out protocols (lastly DNS-over-HTTPS) that make filtering harder or impossible at all, as if filtering did not exist or, if it existed, all of it were bad. So how can we get the IETF to analyze the topic and come to a shared view on how to deal with this in protocols, i.e. either accept the fact that protocols have to support (or at least not to impede) the cases in which filtering is good, or take a public stance that all filtering is bad and be ready to explain it to a number of other parties that need it? I take the suggestion that this might not be the place where this is on topic, yet this does raise human rights concerns which I absolutely recognize and actually share, so having a discussion here seemed useful. If not, I'm happy to go for a non-WG list or any other instruments - suggestions welcome. The plan, however, is not to start immediately to standardize a tagging/classification mechanism (and I agree that, today, the classification machine is likely to be flexible and AI-based, and maybe even out of scope for standardization). First of all, we need a conclusion on the basic choice above, and a list of use cases for filtering seemed to be the first thing to do to prevent that discussion from focusing on just a few of them and forgetting about the others. P.S. In the last few weeks I had conversations with policy people from British and French telcos. They are unanimous in saying that if blocking content by DNS hostname at the local resolver becomes impossible for a significant share of their citizens, their governments will just start ordering the ISPs to block stuff at the IP address / routing level, which means way more overblocking. Isn't this relevant to free expression? Ciao, -- Vittorio Bertola Head of Policy & Innovation Cell: +39 348 7015022 Skype: in-skype-ox@bertola.eu Email: vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Twitter: @openexchange http://twitter.com/openexchange - Facebook: OpenXchange https://www.facebook.com/OpenXchange - Web: www.open-xchange.com http://www.open-xchange.com Open-Xchange AG, Rollnerstr. 14, 90408 Nuremberg, District Court Nuremberg HRB 24738 Managing Board: Rafael Laguna de la Vera, Carsten Dirks, Michael Knapstein, Stephan Martin Chairman of the Board: Richard Seibt European Office: Open-Xchange GmbH, Olper Huette 5f, D-57462 Olpe, Germany, District Court Siegen, HRB 8718 Managing Director: Frank Hoberg US Office: Open-Xchange. Inc., 530 Lytton Avenue, Palo Alto, CA 94301, USA Confidentiality Warning: This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s), are confidential, and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, conversion to hard copy, copying, circulation or other use of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. ------=_Part_19143_716264990.1540072457431 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_Part_19144_264847403.1540072457431" ------=_Part_19144_264847403.1540072457431 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 20 ottobre 2018 alle 10.07 Fred Baker < fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> ha scritto:

My thought is that we're welcome to beat any drums we want on the topic of filtering. We're unlikely to do much more than turn electrical potential into hot air. The first example I mentioned is a matter of law, and governmental agencies probably don't monitor this list. The second is a service that administrators use by choice, and they discriminate against malware for financial and security reasons. The third is frequently a reason that Internet access actually works.
My motivation for attempting to work on this follows from having noticed an inherent tension. As you point out, there will be cases when filtering is bad, cases in which filtering is good, and cases in which it may be bad or good but it is also unavoidable since it is mandated by force by people (governments) that have the mandate to do so. At the same time, the IETF seems to churn out protocols (lastly DNS-over-HTTPS) that make filtering harder or impossible at all, as if filtering did not exist or, if it existed, all of it were bad.

So how can we get the IETF to analyze the topic and come to a shared view on how to deal with this in protocols, i.e. either accept the fact that protocols have to support (or at least not to impede) the cases in which filtering is good, or take a public stance that all filtering is bad and be ready to explain it to a number of other parties that need it?

I take the suggestion that this might not be the place where this is on topic, yet this does raise human rights concerns which I absolutely recognize and actually share, so having a discussion here seemed useful. If not, I'm happy to go for a non-WG list or any other instruments - suggestions welcome. The plan, however, is not to start immediately to standardize a tagging/classification mechanism (and I agree that, today, the classification machine is likely to be flexible and AI-based, and maybe even out of scope for standardization). First of all, we need a conclusion on the basic choice above, and a list of use cases for filtering seemed to be the first thing to do to prevent that discussion from focusing on just a few of them and forgetting about the others.

P.S. In the last few weeks I had conversations with policy people from British and French telcos. They are unanimous in saying that if blocking content by DNS hostname at the local resolver becomes impossible for a significant share of their citizens, their governments will just start ordering the ISPs to block stuff at the IP address / routing level, which means way more overblocking. Isn't this relevant to free expression?

Ciao,

--

Vittorio Bertola
Head of Policy & Innovation

Cell: +39 348 7015022
Skype: in-skype-ox@bertola.eu
Email: vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com

Twitter: @openexchange - Facebook: OpenXchange - Web: www.open-xchange.com
Open-Xchange AG, Rollnerstr. 14, 90408 Nuremberg, District Court Nuremberg HRB 24738
Managing Board: Rafael Laguna de la Vera, Carsten Dirks, Michael Knapstein, Stephan Martin
Chairman of the Board: Richard Seibt

European Office:
Open-Xchange GmbH, Olper Huette 5f, D-57462 Olpe, Germany, District Court Siegen, HRB 8718
Managing Director: Frank Hoberg

US Office:
Open-Xchange. Inc., 530 Lytton Avenue, Palo Alto, CA 94301, USA

Confidentiality Warning: This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s), are confidential, and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, conversion to hard copy, copying, circulation or other use of this message and any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message and any attachments from your system.
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Oct 2018 23:17:31 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9QxT0mU4IjWA; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:17:30 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39914BE53; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:17:30 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1540073850; bh=LrfSd8tEh4ucmVheW+aAOx++aDS0B4yPoIgoejEsijk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=TJk8wOt0JY0RzEszo7KEvLdmYdlGQhr3G3jlJ7YB4iLvwMgKb9fJMvQp0sZBzCIIl 06oXwYO93PZofwFQFlFOIgjOWOM2SHdqUaOg36eYOAvLj4fowhvJKpgp3D0TGGjH6L XwwxYb+yHNBeA3Yu1BvvjpwgD2eOpfQKpojzxAcU= To: Vittorio Bertola , Fred Baker , Melinda Shore Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 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boundary="146c0y1pk4UiroZBL6Pb0wE0i4WfB4v1U" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 22:17:45 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --146c0y1pk4UiroZBL6Pb0wE0i4WfB4v1U Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0fut4yJQwfAuWq95rsdIyTyKWACGpqAjP"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Vittorio Bertola , Fred Baker , Melinda Shore Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> --0fut4yJQwfAuWq95rsdIyTyKWACGpqAjP Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E4DA3B2126ACFC380E7AF729" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E4DA3B2126ACFC380E7AF729 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 20/10/2018 22:54, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > At the same time, the IETF seems to churn out protocols (lastly > DNS-over-HTTPS) that make filtering harder or impossible at all, as > if filtering did not exist or, if it existed, all of it were bad. IMO the above is a fairly gross mis-characterisation of the IETF's outputs and of the processes that lead to those outputs. It'd also be unwise to try argue this topic on this list, as it's an IETF topic (increasing use of confidentiality mechanisms) that has been of considerable controversy every time it's been discussed over the last 20 or so years. And it has been thoroughly discussed quite a few times in the IETF. To be frank - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a real discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt to continue recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols like TLS. If the proponents here are really interested in HR issues, then I would argue they'd be wiser to ensure that such confusion isn't likely. And that's quite doable - just focus on HR issues that do not overlap with weakening crypto - seems to me there are many of those ripe for discussion that are nothing to do with crypto. (E.g. troll farms being used at the application layer to influence discussions and what that might mean in terms of technical requirements to create accounts at services.) 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h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=ImBh6orK1F5xxCGznZL1hKFi3s8rQMuaWHYnC7WswpuTWl7uWER3EXGDrYf7eLq7hfFxy3RfsgG2T0vv5X7aQTk64GTp3YEF/hZC5DTeL2EwK9S6OqVHc5w52qw4HqSWcz6mb3X5+Z6xOslBWJz9NsCb+GMSDBp1sigKaBpWWW66JOXx2WCsguoZuOHGz1O4ooB1+PYI4uSCWWQxRnFNLmTYcEEA7XXLBLNpj06IriP3s2gsZs3twYzejRJhqf8Iq3BNEmZgN4QYrndePmRAwFg7Ve43gnWASPzQX6/X4WiInFT/kgkeH8tbuMQyIfrBeHjZbUMl/tVe6vzsicv7cA== X-YMail-OSG: Gkr3zKoVM1m_FU2eJAiF7BZy1c71._4y1Qxj0NcDCtfXybTFnMoeII.YFzvp4Tn FahTY2qbkhoUXub0FsWMi8b5OlFG3z13xYdkfozB8QfxIUeID7vo4VBmvZP6LuY0_ocjFQE2IsPw NkUniIupL5udVDX0jhy6AuHXQWw1Xq0lx4dcrHO50YEuEiI6rX5GSFooVpiAbAAk4.zlPFmoaz2r d7iBtsSdAVDJuDx2pb.Z09Ox2jppRc_VAwBLNUS7ztKm9mK9f.lGRlfGUU5Vrenc0u2qTr9pfqUp Af_puCTvYbqtckNRuVNPw3c_ZK_izYUcpi3x3xuevbhL5ik4wJtjmewa6onFZj0glw42m3u2BR7z rCb3PQdsy..y2O6vNuh9DxDf9u.J9zGD.kfqxqPwW0gocFrZmjm4sS_ahYFjG84Goq.MaamEvl42 MGSilj0cHXTXcKjog2l86wRgQtrzk_8MDkeY3SOgBT5cfq6iHypmi.S1c45j.c20h2w4QwHAFsGI 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<1714484099.735553.1540077333774@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie> References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_735552_2137972526.1540077333772" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12512 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:16:05 -0000 ------=_Part_735552_2137972526.1540077333772 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >To be frank - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a=C2=A0real = discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt=C2=A0to continue = recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols >like TLS. As far as I am concerned, this is an entirely separate issue from the recen= t attempt to provide much needed operational feedback from industry to the = TLS group.=C2=A0 =C2=A0In fact, my=C2=A0co-authors may noteven know what yo= u are referring to as TLS has not come up even once in our private discussi= ons. I consider DNS over HTTPS to be an entirely separate issue from TLS.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 >troll farms being used at the application=C2=A0layer to influence discussi= ons and what that might mean in terms=C2=A0of technical requirements to cre= ate accounts at services.) That is a very good point.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Those should be put into the problem= description.=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: Stephen Farrell To: Vittorio Bertola ; Fred Baker ; Melinda Shore =20 Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2018 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter= -00.txt =20 On 20/10/2018 22:54, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > At the same time, the IETF seems to churn out protocols (lastly > DNS-over-HTTPS) that make filtering harder or impossible at all, as > if filtering did not exist or, if it existed, all of it were bad. IMO the above is a fairly gross mis-characterisation of the IETF's outputs and of the processes that lead to those outputs. It'd also be unwise to try argue this topic on this list, as it's an IETF topic (increasing use of confidentiality mechanisms) that has been of considerable controversy every time it's been discussed over the last 20 or so years. And it has been thoroughly discussed quite a few times in the IETF. To be frank - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a real discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt to continue recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols like TLS. If the proponents here are really interested in HR issues, then I would argue they'd be wiser to ensure that such confusion isn't likely. And that's quite doable - just focus on HR issues that do not overlap with weakening crypto - seems to me there are many of those ripe for discussion that are nothing to do with crypto. (E.g. troll farms being used at the application layer to influence discussions and what that might mean in terms of technical requirements to create accounts at services.) S. _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_735552_2137972526.1540077333772 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family: "Helvetica Neue", "Segoe UI"= , Helvetica, Arial, "Lucida Grande", sans-serif; font-size: 13px;= " id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1540073105755_32658">>To be frank - I find it = hard to separate out how much this is a real discussion of HR issues and how much it's jus= t an attempt to= continue recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols
>like TLS.

As far as I am concerned, this is an entirely separate = issue from the recent attempt to provide much needed operational feedback f= rom industry to the TLS group.   In fact, my co-authors may not
even know what you are referring to as TLS h= as not come up even once in our private discussions.

<= div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1540073105755_32679">I consider DNS over HTTPS to be an entire= ly separate issue from TLS.   

>troll farms being use= d at the application layer to influence discussions and what that might mean in terms = ;of technical requir= ements to create accounts at services.)

That is a very good point.   Those should be p= ut into the problem description.
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO a= nd Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-= 8360


From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> To: Vittorio Bertola &l= t;vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>; Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmai= l.com>; Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net>
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2018 3:18 P= M
Subject: Re: [hrpc] = New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
 <= /div>



On 20/10/2018 22:54, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
> At the same time, the IETF seems to churn out protocols (las= tly
> DNS-over-HTTPS) that make filtering harder or im= possible at all, as
> if filtering did not exist or, i= f it existed, all of it were bad.
IMO the above is a fair= ly gross mis-characterisation of the
IETF's outputs and o= f the processes that lead to those outputs.

It'd also be unwise to try argue this topic on this list, as
it's an IETF topic (increasing use of confidentiality mechanisms)=
that has been of considerable controversy every time it'= s been
discussed over the last 20 or so years. And it has= been thoroughly
discussed quite a few times in the IETF.=

To be frank - I find it hard to separ= ate out how much this is a
real discussion of HR issues a= nd how much it's just an attempt
to continue recent attem= pts to weaken the security of protocols
like TLS. If the = proponents here are really interested in HR
issues, then = I would argue they'd be wiser to ensure that such
confusi= on isn't likely. And that's quite doable - just focus on
= HR issues that do not overlap with weakening crypto - seems to
me there are many of those ripe for discussion that are nothing
to do with crypto. (E.g. troll farms being used at the applica= tion
layer to influence discussions and what that might m= ean in terms
of technical requirements to create accounts= at services.)


S.
______________________________________________= _
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org=
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/h= rpc


<= /body> ------=_Part_735552_2137972526.1540077333772-- From nobody Sat Oct 20 16:19:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B98512F1AC for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:19:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tb3SOiSfRCcS for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic303-28.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic303-28.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.188.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7468112D4E6 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:19:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1540077567; bh=noeUGlhuBDWEkMT3GbXOJA4QPUIvOUkBVcrTYvvMxs4=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=Q4deCksxbszQftdE8Q8cInxnyGAr6zFjFwvmUo3Smiac+/HYklNuq58LA89sWCtzJcuutLvKgilgV0RD2S2o2KyO3MU+Th1bIYIkOvp4arAWNPTORsZAiAIyZ9zpCSXlzOvq/N8Zj4hvArZGO0QX6nG1A14rnQVXyB9SgI2os+S/hMg5gACzgadI46pO9cq3WMUHvWxOjrjEO65F4Hx4c5GaCMZbSkh8CuqYYQQe9LnXcTUdMlomxWLamd6nJLN1sn0c+QikFpfXeZMgpqqFnTeSarHjhtiUZaV83LScTz+V4+rFe1x5ZjziFH16jcCJ5tm4KcW0jhowl02R5rgy0A== X-YMail-OSG: hVu3YOkVM1lngC5zgmfjOFZEjSM3Fh8I202RrIbd7HK33eNtsPR_4qhVc1Xswfv fxsEUPT8G3nzvqIse1dk33bI6vppfcPXVFenwisNPsvvOD.1iOVvCv7uT8h9n1NUIUDrisyY8OWl jIj0WNyOdzon1W154K08cC47cjeS.DZzhABiC.kruH43sjCVehSbMxpaVnBfveXjJFwgwULlOxMj vFnqkSgjIShDWyH.iQ36WHCMvXS_oCmNBIA8bugf6OqNCjkQjqCCteEA14KE6b2OeIPyEFJeaETY e4gUe4CpBqCbxYDxlYFSG0FJL4ZC2IKEDZ6CO_AA25OZPwcZtLkCfKV_0qhPBlyR3CT3Ot.75LJh EvJmjxoToOIcZMziUwCv.UY2Rk.6hOYR2XpADvHN121mwIpNkNelCkFTkAkKTU8CEiCMBZ2IK5By 6mxTgJMMaM1aDbqnwiPViHFpfpUclYEKuP128Eqlnko9BbDf2BpGn8PQBuN1SIod4qsm5FPXfsld Sxn.FeS5w_wdJj9JkmYuD5uS5i7Vl0uF.gv_ki3WxpTgMoiNPioXaQq3UPnhPHRAaiiqSuQ_lZTs FfBL.rJMoR0ySKiLjtYss84nMrq5xZxH3YvvLeuLqYfH_ARpdrOtYDk8ZFP3l9D2IkeFfas2uM_e By0Y89IOecZ73p5rSNgRQe1bC0zfTKoRY93SpuywSW0iUpb0qaOnN2SFaAhIYFJ4e9ryCUJwJUwC K8IbkzsAGZ85mm.sLQkbPDukqRDwS6d4uGtKyxeDtuQZyWV_FnadxCRVLtGdfEMsQSowrb80RHU9 PXNZSNbg7nifntPyF5Hg3NxHm08Z39W8KPnQPKRtFqE4iQQaK96JmDP37sPX.5saDw8thMPachGu foSouoO4.y0duU8FSTWLGF1A7r2F_qg4sAAP9CdCxOmFxbL_i9nB86psHnbV3ecyIS9X0mCy4jep 57btqVHoSjnGAibw1GAlp_TBmvu9Q0muyn_1SxOhNcVMfNaVqDS_f7rQxq48fPNGoknOJaZ1s.lh RYjhBiFNBvd8YOgZe2VGhMRyy6JhNsRSEhfnKGxPNdeywagBK9aD6rtChM__kIJpEEmbIkrSPvAI 5NjrqaL7XJkafheovxeQ- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:19:27 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:19:23 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Melinda Shore , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <1560226020.722689.1540077563497@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_722688_1907661830.1540077563492" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12512 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:19:30 -0000 ------=_Part_722688_1907661830.1540077563492 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Melinda, >But it seems to me that in the context of HRPC it's best to >stick to 1) research topics, that 2) have something to do with >protocol issues that impinge on human rights People are actually getting killed as a result of things like posts by the = Myanmar military on Facebook. If that is not a violation of human rights, then I would like to know what = is. I frankly think that there are very few things better suited for this list = than a problem description of such human rights violations.=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: Melinda Shore To: hrpc@irtf.org=20 Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter= -00.txt =20 On 10/19/18 7:33 PM, bzs@theworld.com wrote: > A unified format and evolving taxonomic dictionary could be more > useful than attacking this problem anew for every application. For the little it's worth it's not that clear to me what's actually under discussion.=C2=A0 This particular document looks at content filtering by unspecified means.=C2=A0 The previous document proposed tagging content that might have human rights implications in terms of those implications, rather than by topic.=C2=A0 I'm not really a fan of either, but I'll note that content tagging by topic and using a standardized, controlled vocabulary is 1980s technology and, I hope, not under consideration here or anywhere else in the IETF.=C2=A0 Still, if what's under consideration is just the syntax for doing so (and it would be awesome if the chairs could weigh in on whether or not this is in scope for this RG), I would hope that we realize that there's already a lot out there, whether it's MARC, or Dublin Core (which has been published by the IETF as an informational RFC, although I don't believe an encoding specification has been published by us). But it seems to me that in the context of HRPC it's best to stick to 1) research topics, that 2) have something to do with protocol issues that impinge on human rights. Melinda --=20 Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_722688_1907661830.1540077563492 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family: "Helvetica Neue", "Segoe UI"= , Helvetica, Arial, "Lucida Grande", sans-serif; font-size: 13px;= ">Melinda,

>But it= seems to me that in the context of HRPC it's best to
>stick to 1) research topics, that 2) have something = to do with
>protocol issues that= impinge on human rights

People are actually getting killed as a result of things l= ike posts by the Myanmar military on Facebook.

If that is not a v= iolation of human rights, then I would like to know what is.

<= /div>
I frankly think that ther= e are very few things better suited for this list than a problem descriptio= n of such human rights violations.
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins=
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(= 831) 659-8360


From: Melinda Shor= e <melinda.shore@nomountain.net>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Versi= on Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
On 10/19/18= 7:33 PM, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
> A = unified format and evolving taxonomic dictionary could be more
> useful than attacking this problem anew for every application.
For the little it's worth it's not that= clear to me what's actually
under discussion.  This= particular document looks at content
filtering by unspec= ified means.  The previous document proposed
tagging= content that might have human rights implications in
ter= ms of those implications, rather than by topic.  I'm not
really a fan of either, but I'll note that content tagging
by topic and using a standardized, controlled vocabulary is
1980s technology and, I hope, not under consideration here or
anywhere else in the IETF.  Still, if what's under cons= ideration
is just the syntax for doing so (and it would b= e awesome if
the chairs could weigh in on whether or not = this is in scope
for this RG), I would hope that we reali= ze that there's already
a lot out there, whether it's MAR= C, or Dublin Core (which has been
published by the IETF a= s an informational RFC, although I don't
believe an encod= ing specification has been published by us).

But it seems to me that in the context of HRPC it's best to
stick to 1) research topics, that 2) have something to do withprotocol issues that impinge on human rights.

Melinda

-- Melinda Shore
melinda.shore@nomountain.net

Software longa, hardware brevis


____________________________= ___________________
hrpc mailing list
<= a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.= org">hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/= mailman/listinfo/hrpc


------=_Part_722688_1907661830.1540077563492-- From nobody Sat Oct 20 16:20:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC6FD12F1AC for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:20:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aOn8oLRRKBEX for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic315-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic315-27.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0119C12D4E6 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:20:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1540077653; bh=qcZpKthH99DQOogklJk5ImDj7NzVTQm+inAGw+dNA7M=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=PUCZtXy83vhaXkPz6JtNZe0x/Oq1Xz1KfZabI4jbHjP0rEKtLlQx0zjcxy2o4YbNQvKKdydXiXJWGvkSNKStG8tdhi1vdYFr2eDFYxgHY/JGWH3lzstUjH5wtHUceTYWSxMxCeur2msnIVJj6mdEkxbVuZV9sEneSRDoIAEEB2G+VPbGcrXONUAKqcpMyW6qKhx/HonRw05rEcb9rf49XVtoutSxy4qCoiIMEG3pBYzoTqKSYn8GkuZhbyLJWeD/ClnVtU8ZbBcq6Wtr0IjuldBnYE+lgu2oYWKH7+ZqzXNybBe5tfe2XQ3HtV5C6HYc2fH4y3TsfpfiN63wVj0U6g== X-YMail-OSG: rT7rCOIVM1nKDY.Y7MMLB6ywfNXsEXI7Ie9CAOQU597TAW1OcJiZ3b70ZgjgjgD XkUEQmCPDyjos8Mk1Y5l0AOvuVVucyq7L8.Uo56HecU_cdmIvxBM5Bt3ykp728Lj6R59XvBkiRV6 acAvhsWl1ik.3v.LsVA35K3N5KrvHy.LaU4oJmnR9Qg_JjT0fzHEu2IFxGx1aL4pPBH0aC2XyDlM fW2fsW_Rwds.8PlRj.7QGISdQIXK3LfzVMsorx1VY8I4hYtap_9Z4IkRxfp0KQswQHChsk20C2U9 7HCCmCkHk2Tjq9oh.IlG.BwShT1TYw591sCTnnIW2TKGL4LcjGmQH84tJYeXtZodKJLQX9sPlYQj vTdXHHx2a0_pGqoeE0Dc02m8dNDYBOft1flxmRGCOBZVkvk60Npme_Dzk.4Uljf6DVzaJs24U3a9 MpqfFnhRrAW_FXwwe1cnh2nGdrr6X_rQZzB7AbXO6tAoj.8F1khJPYQaLHfN7c3n4ghXDTFDzlpD Yuurozoe81qeEjuffi1hqkCdb_JO6XQ5gPfxriQO0HPUIrtDUT7y1_lt31VXlQx7Hk7FGmmfCak0 5KxmB_5sPPds6QrSnZWk6Xv8vuDx0ahexc8sfrn.zdavMF.st.tNjHAhYjVxSThtuHLhnvFL.TiG 5ACjrL..hZkXo9V69LYFO6JdcBw0542jeVtWSYlMM42gi_rw6.Dzhy2D3sNbfL9hVWsXNVmOqpL. uz2gQXzY_QAmV7_TzyT5YjUE5xLSarprjOJmH_kJbXSdLKo6DaLGBXYiNhU0ij60vYN7W2.QK5y6 Yvh09uw_oOBvBPsFg9WOCgYyV.E.8Gx0tQE_cafIgwsqAY5APNu__F1nm3XsbQ6QKcCwtnmUxjnw HJrzFQmmnGMkrZo_t_D2HA20JJPov3LXnJ7OAli70EIZzfq3ulBJmea.EFmkRyFsnZz8_4tmQUW0 NEhrV3rkgoiFw_tMPK4yK77e.h.ibXPB4VLluRce7GmemrzAdcRiuJr9KQgFwFbfJTRcoyQEPqrk nhccJuSwCudP4oa2D.EbE8CQvZQ9YgJvjgIqaIYb52U3.aq4DiHx7maY48epsLz_DT4vay3he89K Y5WuQvOSNZM.5bA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:20:53 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:20:52 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Melinda Shore , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <1090129328.731745.1540077652183@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <776915cb-21ca-10c9-f68d-afe97dc4dfb1@nomountain.net> References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <23499.31731.649351.833803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <23499.34790.823473.558795@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <776915cb-21ca-10c9-f68d-afe97dc4dfb1@nomountain.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_731744_161038355.1540077652181" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12512 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:20:57 -0000 ------=_Part_731744_161038355.1540077652181 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > And putting my IAB hat back on for a moment, I would hope that=C2=A0any f= uture draft on this topic would address why none of the=C2=A0existing stand= ards are adequate, vocabulary control (i.e. > would there be a controlled vocabulary and if so, whether or=C2=A0not you= 'd be requesting a new IANA registry, how you'd deal with=C2=A0synonyms and= translation issues), and transport (for example, would > you also be requesting a new HTTP header?). Guys, let's step back for a minute and only describe the problem and use ca= ses.=C2=A0 We may be jumping too quickly to a solution.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Th= anks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: Melinda Shore To: hrpc@irtf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2018 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter= -00.txt =20 It seems to me that this would be an appropriate situation for requesting a non-WG mailing list from the IETF secretariat, rather than continuing to drag this list off-topic. And putting my IAB hat back on for a moment, I would hope that any future draft on this topic would address why none of the existing standards are adequate, vocabulary control (i.e. would there be a controlled vocabulary and if so, whether or not you'd be requesting a new IANA registry, how you'd deal with synonyms and translation issues), and transport (for example, would you also be requesting a new HTTP header?). Thanks, Melinda --=20 Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_731744_161038355.1540077652181 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family: "Helvetica Neue", "Segoe UI"= , Helvetica, Arial, "Lucida Grande", sans-serif; font-size: 13px;= " id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1540073105755_39771">> And putting my IAB hat = back on for a moment, I would hope that any future draft on this topic would address why n= one of the exis= ting standards are adequate, vocabulary control (i.e.
> would there be a controlled vocabulary and if so, w= hether or not y= ou'd be requesting a new IANA registry, how you'd deal with synonyms and translation issue= s), and transport (for example, would
> you also be requesting a new HTTP header?).

Guys, let's step back for a min= ute and only describe the problem and use cases.  We may be jumping to= o quickly to a solution.  
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
= CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831)= 659-8360


From: Melinda Shore &l= t;melinda.shore@nomountain.net>
S= ent: Saturday, October 20, 2018 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification f= or draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt

It seems to me that this wou= ld be an appropriate situation for
requesting a non-WG ma= iling list from the IETF secretariat,
rather than continu= ing to drag this list off-topic.

And p= utting my IAB hat back on for a moment, I would hope that
any future draft on this topic would address why none of the
existing standards are adequate, vocabulary control (i.e.
would there be a controlled vocabulary and if so, whether or
not you'd be requesting a new IANA registry, how you'd deal with<= br clear=3D"none">synonyms and translation issues), and transport (for exam= ple, would
you also be requesting a new HTTP header?).
Thanks,

Melinda


-- Melinda Shore
melinda.shore@nomountain.net

Software longa, hardware brevis


____________________________= ___________________
hrpc mailing list
<= a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.= org">hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/= mailman/listinfo/hrpc


------=_Part_731744_161038355.1540077652181-- From nobody Sat Oct 20 16:23:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C9812F1AC for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:23:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vCFZLLFHhRvs for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic303-28.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic303-28.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.188.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E17512D4E6 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:23:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1540077829; bh=rejeQ/NAfq+aovbO27Qe/+BYqRhnrYkHtMw8ZtbiJf8=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=itfP86hj52o0XKnDBxuvFW32965Nb8sQHuBuu+YZMo7qkaQDLmaPoTbiD+yVT8ZetGnlD330eFY8pg1xICV8DZd2Jb5gPVD74rXbosSeNLEKFPhBdZFdJKXll3nHvO35YtbTZnNwIlP6I57Z8yuRM8s/Gapl8D5zdJsVYMjKzJfZHePyx660IWMaRISimIY4fO/SPrZ7Lcd82ElZ+FpptmpQf8iSgdcFOglP/nQ0gHLJ6fFo/Aw2VrijbzZXHHzvT94jGcIKM7F39Nd8xmHMtscUEOfIyQ3fUGY9GbFe/d0E3471RAXyZOIiJ0G5pU5y4km3kzo3362/29RSPyYjhw== X-YMail-OSG: QuHBZVsVM1kGAu7M8OseMCOY71u.qig6AaIV4mBJ6yr.K.u4vj5P8f.w66mhUJS kHFEWO8vZRcUV0A4O7u.2ued10dvrAYNiAPewgEKS28BfXpx94oNk2wE7n6MZpWUGimrKLjUhnWK aeJc6cFv0Sfx8cqvgNnHWZ9UTxi8.1mOkNRJpNZBMbTlKRWyaYEmBoLDh5rFtNNg3ImsEnGW2DKQ OGpSR4jSLGrw0B6D.zuM_1xr3onr5aTZURuA9mDl1x8C8DKRq8zHUlfTjIc2Dc1NdSI1YslD5MAH 4F5331fk0qpeWsjeBodlC1oCjc58e0y.gQStu.W4hxu6nZwl01uhQEVGVPIdrZcv5lAjnp55ygCL wCIKq37vgDTslSfPXI.ANOlSAVlAPLDUYCNnyUe.mHI_l7ujkWgYQuaIuYsS5_rJkyJxv1r4ede8 IvprhouQ.9t9bOd13UX.R6Fdgk8JWHBOT4TkUBceEo2zt3w2zJLBRttEgyF0V4YVMgr_7TGNPinT lFK8EToLd5ikqPDdn4yBfrx4Bzc1Z2lViCVb9Yk5zRc5qKNhevteNXOYNXYKjC00Ep8rQ.tsPC71 3qnTNbch3LkY6iP25rg9pH_IAKMG4ZdFs6KZvHlZUU3BTdlLlECaUbGhzR12SKACSEGdC304eu7s NEh8bHBKvdBmLlrq9LKyLEmjktGKXcMENBbOjFzd2QcZOe3wwPmfwq5Oa35ZBdA765._SB3JwRvf M1lbE.JqpIAf.1ATt.m582qEnLNgqBBbBDaQ70qGsUex2nRPALk3Rcr2IePo.xov0bxYXDESLfXN s6Nla9qqnbQCYHm_o.d4InhABwA7G48UJwcvmDfDiGBOOAt5d8Wl4rX3DBsk.2vRFQ5DKs88HTE9 tJoRr2yan8ZRjojSYK_fNLj.s0uPCayN3Hb14ZBIk3JKJjhZmiB3U460OH7NdsJZLVckVzmxe9lQ 6CiWNpS5ZGhaE_uvNzKyVzo68Tq.v4_98YIcNrljPS1SlzXwxq70l0JeTAckxW90vZMiuBNLFblz DJYXy5.YkWOT9tcEE.V.XG1.34OLSxw8nebXspUsRadU1cmmGEuTbki.wYQ8zZdYQWw7PkiQJnjp rRjsICtdH2AABhjfT4wvjHCJcFvU- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:23:49 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:23:47 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Fred Baker , Melinda Shore Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <4833947.728392.1540077827123@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_728391_2032287625.1540077827121" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12512 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:23:53 -0000 ------=_Part_728391_2032287625.1540077827121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, > The obvious interpretation of filtering for content is to in some way loo= k for words that are of interest to the filtering party in the content of t= he message, and "do something". We wanted to keep content and taxonomy separate from a potential protocol s= olution.=C2=A0 I do not think they need to be co-mingled. It may be unavoidable that a draft on content and taxonomy needs to be done= .=C2=A0 We have been trying to stay away from that.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If any peop= le from academia feel inclined to work in this area with us, please contact= any of the co-authors.=C2=A0 I will also put it on my todo list to reach o= ut to academics.=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: Fred Baker To: Melinda Shore =20 Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2018 1:07 AM Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter= -00.txt =20 > On Oct 20, 2018, at 6:13 AM, Melinda Shore = wrote: > This particular document looks at content filtering by unspecified means. I suspect that "means" is an important question. The obvious interpretation= of filtering for content is to in some way look for words that are of inte= rest to the filtering party in the content of the message, and "do somethin= g". That is something that is generally not done in real time. For example,= in Great Britain, child pornography is unlawful. There is an organization = that is tasked with identifying relevant URLs and adding them to a list. Th= at affects BGP routing; routing to the indicated service goes via a DPI sys= tem, which looks for an HTTP request for the URL in question and replies wi= th a negative response, which is a form of content filtering. In China, a s= imilar technique is used, I'm told, regarding content on the Internet that = contains the word "China" in any language, and specifically anything that m= ight criticize the Chinese government. OpenDNS has a service (they have sev= eral, and this one is as optional as any of them) that uses reputation serv= ices to identify URLs or services that have a high probability of deliverin= g malware or unlawful content (read "pornography"), and respond with a manu= factured resource record. That is also content filtering at the name level.= And what an ISP does to mitigate DDOS and other attacks, which is essentia= lly self-defense and in US FCC regulation is often called "reasonable netwo= rk management". It is similarly an instance of content and protocol filteri= ng. My thought is that we're welcome to beat any drums we want on the topic of = filtering. We're unlikely to do much more than turn electrical potential in= to hot air. The first example I mentioned is a matter of law, and governmen= tal agencies probably don't monitor this list. The second is a service that= administrators use by choice, and they discriminate against malware for fi= nancial and security reasons. The third is frequently a reason that Interne= t access actually works. The list goes on. > But it seems to me that in the context of HRPC it's best to > stick to 1) research topics, that 2) have something to do with > protocol issues that impinge on human rights. Yes, I'd be interested in seeing anything that has resulted in or is target= ed to result in published research papers, and is following something resem= bling the scientific method to produce results from data. I don't think it is limited to protocol issues, however. If one wants to ta= lk about OpenDNS malware filtering, for example, it will have to be the beh= avior of a DNS resolver (of which OpenDNS is an example).__________________= _____________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_728391_2032287625.1540077827121 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family: "Helvetica Neue", "Segoe UI"= , Helvetica, Arial, "Lucida Grande", sans-serif; font-size: 13px;= ">Fred,

> The ob= vious interpretation of filtering for content is to in some way look for wo= rds that are of interest to the filtering party in the content of the messa= ge, and "do something".

We wanted to keep content and= taxonomy separate from a potential protocol solution.  I do not think= they need to be co-mingled.

It may be unavoidable that a draft on= content and taxonomy needs to be done.  We have been trying to stay a= way from that.   If any people from academia feel inclined to wor= k in this area with us, please contact any of the co-authors.  I will = also put it on my todo list to reach out to academics.
 
Thanks,

= Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethes= tack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf= @gmail.com>
To: Mel= inda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net>
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2018 1:07 = AM
Subject: Re: [hrpc]= New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
 =



> On Oct 20, 2018, at 6:13 AM, Melinda Shore <<= a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:melinda.shore@nomountain.net" href=3D"ma= ilto:melinda.shore@nomountain.net">melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wro= te:
> This particular document looks at content filter= ing by unspecified means.

I suspect th= at "means" is an important question. The obvious interpretation of filterin= g for content is to in some way look for words that are of interest to the = filtering party in the content of the message, and "do something". That is = something that is generally not done in real time. For example, in Great Br= itain, child pornography is unlawful. There is an organization that is task= ed with identifying relevant URLs and adding them to a list. That affects B= GP routing; routing to the indicated service goes via a DPI system, which l= ooks for an HTTP request for the URL in question and replies with a negativ= e response, which is a form of content filtering. In China, a similar techn= ique is used, I'm told, regarding content on the Internet that contains the= word "China" in any language, and specifically anything that might critici= ze the Chinese government. OpenDNS has a service (they have several, and th= is one is as optional as any of them) that uses reputation services to iden= tify URLs or services that have a high probability of delivering malware or= unlawful content (read "pornography"), and respond with a manufactured res= ource record. That is also content filtering at the name level. And what an= ISP does to mitigate DDOS and other attacks, which is essentially self-def= ense and in US FCC regulation is often called "reasonable network managemen= t". It is similarly an instance of content and protocol filtering.

My thought is that we're welcome to beat any d= rums we want on the topic of filtering. We're unlikely to do much more than= turn electrical potential into hot air. The first example I mentioned is a= matter of law, and governmental agencies probably don't monitor this list.= The second is a service that administrators use by choice, and they discri= minate against malware for financial and security reasons. The third is fre= quently a reason that Internet access actually works.
The list goes on.


> But it seems to me that in = the context of HRPC it's best to
> stick to 1) researc= h topics, that 2) have something to do with
> protocol= issues that impinge on human rights.


Yes, I'd be interested in seeing anything that has resulted in or is = targeted to result in published research papers, and is following something= resembling the scientific method to produce results from data.

I don't think it is limited to protocol issues, h= owever. If one wants to talk about OpenDNS malware filtering, for example, = it will have to be the behavior of a DNS resolver (of which OpenDNS is an e= xample).
______________= _________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https:/= /www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


------=_Part_728391_2032287625.1540077827121-- From nobody Sat Oct 20 16:37:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F90612F1AC for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:37:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2T0CG3vIifOU for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com (mail-pf1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EBF112D4E6 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id r64-v6so18109863pfb.13 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:37:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P/pJX6dvJsB8fvvDR6LZIsprITiMZf9yeka30+eICl4=; b=HgN8/nKAVhjGr/mjUKuMMYKYLaLW4rC1N8+7DUS1T8Xgl84A78dJ5w1NLtzt4097QD +If/f2bEyhVcGcn0CL9/H+ekT5hz36nOmxdU/le43bOw8Ccvc1ikg/N6gRXYeYgfNFOj WSo2sREPjloUyBKfgkHQU2XOSYOblOkDjTcZFSqcvCHkymNwfDm72gfjMyevrISB+DHC ch2uxoMDbO+rZ5RtdQ7OPGQad0Pgb01oy+q5u6d1QD4zjGO86K5Ejo9Mn5k5/u3AKoSr hhHS10IvCdejvmqo6XWEvH+yZIVpQvYt4H1camUi5eQ7TJ4Ss8/iZdAYuoSnwJ8NcC6e HKyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=P/pJX6dvJsB8fvvDR6LZIsprITiMZf9yeka30+eICl4=; b=YFT8Mz4UHBnaQrnpUYdDDmt1sKdnEyo5o5GQxGb3ZCvHKSfOqrT5M8+rhGFEDgTR4T kkr9OsK8GSEQHjSIpQ2r5c4xElYTB0vb6Cn+iE858NXZolNzSj/7QvkLtEwvSENFRE6V gEnvJaVE5fusOgKEBW9ng623x+UIf0oYIoyXaGg/7qq/aYvwGC6WwWBA7k6Q8U4Ye2hs e9xh8DSR56J2HUn36hWEdGyz7WK9KFYW971U6cD15aTXfxeqQ2ndAw1pPHAEf9/9igN5 /Tk/RAc22uMVQvgkYc+WKrylPwf7XSsyJJW3l/K7Fzi89z4ruB836mjyAKZ/dQSnk7qh EiRg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohpyIM/NZXBfbkU7dyWklQ/58W+OzBSIvsitolUl8JW8W9NYQ1A pM+ujkGeiAa0vrHiigWxQ5VVPW9YmA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV60Z3+V0xscUcJoB56/1DxV0TVtyUdiIq2MEVpyceVrBGQCcQl9MAW3JM8v7AOBSOQvSPeyWZQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:509a:: with SMTP id g26-v6mr39759775pfj.62.1540078628288; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aspen.local (216-67-35-146-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.35.146]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z22-v6sm34500407pgk.21.2018.10.20.16.37.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:37:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Nalini J Elkins , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <23499.31731.649351.833803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <23499.34790.823473.558795@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <776915cb-21ca-10c9-f68d-afe97dc4dfb1@nomountain.net> <1090129328.731745.1540077652183@mail.yahoo.com> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: <6332f009-23d3-6966-a79c-1fe454515aa7@nomountain.net> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 15:37:05 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1090129328.731745.1540077652183@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:37:11 -0000 On 10/20/18 3:20 PM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >> And putting my IAB hat back on for a moment, I would hope that any >> future draft on this topic would address why none of the existing > standards are adequate, vocabulary control (i.e. >> would there be a controlled vocabulary and if so, whether or not >> you'd be requesting a new IANA registry, how you'd deal > with synonyms and translation issues), and transport (for example, > would >> you also be requesting a new HTTP header?). > Guys, let's step back for a minute and only describe the problem and > use cases. We may be jumping too quickly to a solution. Barry specifically advocated working on subject tagging ("this document is about elephants") and continuing the discussion on this mailing list. It is only tangentially related to the posted draft and, as such, can't really be considered a solution, anyway. As I said in the mail you're responding to, this should be taken to a more appropriate mailing list. I am not a fan of the intended direction of the filtering discussion and am profoundly uncomfortable with the notion of working on technology that can specifically be used to abridge speech rights, but I agree that an examination of filtering practices can be viewed as being within the scope of this RG. Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis From nobody Sat Oct 20 16:37:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C4212D4E6 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:37:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fw5_haoSS_5k for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4229812F1AC for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E44BE55; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 00:37:34 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ddPkDJoGUFc9; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 00:37:32 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3E2B1BE53; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 00:37:32 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1540078652; bh=nhDpQ/aYHZ812wmvb8E5Ozhr+RnfJJPElg8O0ffiGYs=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=aKRpyLpz5bgMaqRBw5vKZ8RfsXmwMiQEHExRyCm1le6OVkDBLNcEyPjMQyVsNJsG8 zLFgIjEW0qCrJBjQrBvvmaDXL2e0TL9pl0XuhTu+5iEdTxEEpcpEL/hLb/jeMKvgqN NOWwiX0B9EUxklHCIG4JE6v3SfdhaJXZqV3Ti8wc= To: Nalini J Elkins , Vittorio Bertola , Fred Baker , Melinda Shore Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie> <1714484099.735553.1540077333774@mail.yahoo.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzTJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxM7BTQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 00:37:31 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1714484099.735553.1540077333774@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8sFNCd16N6oALKcBO2zzsQRQ5q23qG56r" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:37:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --8sFNCd16N6oALKcBO2zzsQRQ5q23qG56r Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="1suMy0lDuvAlukHhP2M37aDV7f1XjwVr5"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Nalini J Elkins , Vittorio Bertola , Fred Baker , Melinda Shore Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie> <1714484099.735553.1540077333774@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1714484099.735553.1540077333774@mail.yahoo.com> --1suMy0lDuvAlukHhP2M37aDV7f1XjwVr5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0555DBCE6EB6729DE1040E4C" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0555DBCE6EB6729DE1040E4C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 21/10/2018 00:15, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >> To be frank - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a >> real discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt to >> continue recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols like >> TLS. > As far as I am concerned, this is an entirely separate issue from the > recent attempt to provide much needed operational feedback from > industry to the TLS group. =20 Sure. (Not that I agree with that description of the debate:-) I do accept that you consider this a different issue but I'd ask you to consider whether it's wise to conflate the two, or to explicitly try ensure a clean separation between these two quite different discussions. > In fact, my co-authors may noteven know > what you are referring to as TLS has not come up even once in our > private discussions.=20 FWIW, I consider it normal that the dramatis personae change with each iteration of this debate. The arguments remain the same of course, as (so far) has the IETF's rough consensus on the topic. > I consider DNS over HTTPS to be an entirely > separate issue from TLS. It is entirely related if one is interested in inspection of protocol payload and metadata. >> troll farms being used at the application layer to influence >> discussions and what that might mean in terms of technical >> requirements to create accounts at services.) > That is a very good point. Those should be put into the problem > description. Thanks, I think you're missing my point - sorry for not explaining it well, but I'll try again. ISTM that people expressing valid concerns about the use of Internet services at the application layer that might impinge on human rights, would be wise(r) to ensure they aren't being seen as attacking the mechanisms we use to improve the security and privacy properties of Internet protocols, but would make more progress leveraging the real alignments they may have with the technical requirements of people who would like to improve the privacy aspects of the Internet as commonly used by us all. S. >=20 > Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc.=20 > www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 >=20 > From: Stephen Farrell To: Vittorio > Bertola ; Fred Baker > ; Melinda Shore > Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Sent: Saturday, > October 20, 2018 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification > for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 20/10/2018 22:54, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >> At the same time, the IETF seems to churn out protocols (lastly=20 >> DNS-over-HTTPS) that make filtering harder or impossible at all, >> as if filtering did not exist or, if it existed, all of it were >> bad. > IMO the above is a fairly gross mis-characterisation of the IETF's > outputs and of the processes that lead to those outputs. >=20 > It'd also be unwise to try argue this topic on this list, as it's an > IETF topic (increasing use of confidentiality mechanisms) that has > been of considerable controversy every time it's been discussed over > the last 20 or so years. And it has been thoroughly discussed quite a > few times in the IETF. >=20 > To be frank - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a real > discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt to continue > recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols like TLS. If the > proponents here are really interested in HR issues, then I would > argue they'd be wiser to ensure that such confusion isn't likely. And > that's quite doable - just focus on HR issues that do not overlap > with weakening crypto - seems to me there are many of those ripe for > discussion that are nothing to do with crypto. (E.g. troll farms > being used at the application layer to influence discussions and what > that might mean in terms of technical requirements to create accounts > at services.) >=20 > S. _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20 > hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20 > hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --------------0555DBCE6EB6729DE1040E4C Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy 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hhUE6V7xg06bfM0gFBHMZY96eCcWHMAdiYyyMvUFDzCHO15fh8LMdZVIcpRb3IPBBbcd5tmK4dy5 DtDZ_8_RY3XdKuJ7N2wc- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:53:03 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:52:46 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Melinda Shore , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <1912877210.732226.1540079566499@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <6332f009-23d3-6966-a79c-1fe454515aa7@nomountain.net> References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <23499.31731.649351.833803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <23499.34790.823473.558795@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <776915cb-21ca-10c9-f68d-afe97dc4dfb1@nomountain.net> <1090129328.731745.1540077652183@mail.yahoo.com> <6332f009-23d3-6966-a79c-1fe454515aa7@nomountain.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12512 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:53:07 -0000 Melinda. >am profoundly uncomfortable with the notion of working on technology that can specifically be used to abridge speech rights, I completely understand. I am very uncomfortable also. I lived for two years in a nation which was a military dictatorship with no freedom of speech. I am well aware of how that plays out in people's lives. But, I am also very uncomfortable with the prospect of people getting hurt as a result of unfettered freedom. This has happened in the past and I see it being more and more of a possibility in the future. That is why I am spending my cycles on this issue. Sometimes, there are no good solutions, only least bad solutions. I think let's go very slowly. Let's at least talk about the problem. I think ignoring reality does no one any good. I know my we (my co-authors and I) have tentatively proposed solutions but I want us to have some discipline and not go to solutions yet. I have faith that if people of good will talk things out carefully and if maybe at the IETF we can come to some kind of rough consensus, it may be the "least bad alternative". Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 ________________________________ From: Melinda Shore To: Nalini J Elkins ; "hrpc@irtf.org" Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2018 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt On 10/20/18 3:20 PM, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >> And putting my IAB hat back on for a moment, I would hope that any >> future draft on this topic would address why none of the existing > standards are adequate, vocabulary control (i.e. >> would there be a controlled vocabulary and if so, whether or not >> you'd be requesting a new IANA registry, how you'd deal > with synonyms and translation issues), and transport (for example, > would >> you also be requesting a new HTTP header?). > Guys, let's step back for a minute and only describe the problem and > use cases. We may be jumping too quickly to a solution. Barry specifically advocated working on subject tagging ("this document is about elephants") and continuing the discussion on this mailing list. It is only tangentially related to the posted draft and, as such, can't really be considered a solution, anyway. As I said in the mail you're responding to, this should be taken to a more appropriate mailing list. I am not a fan of the intended direction of the filtering discussion and am profoundly uncomfortable with the notion of working on technology that can specifically be used to abridge speech rights, but I agree that an examination of filtering practices can be viewed as being within the scope of this RG. Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc From nobody Sat Oct 20 18:55:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB516130ED3; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:55:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y3RHbT9s8hCI; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8704130DD0; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id k132-v6so3642693ybc.2; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:55:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=u8aB+ocuC2F2O9Qy8sYTmdtIvlss1tRDUNxSDfSUMfI=; b=PwUceKCNXSh5MGBhwccNGrZ+Nf208DzGQB5YlQzMbI9gyZi7kZFG0DWW8bftXYLTkQ LcsOjYzdg94aFrVrPYROY2ijtOnckAAnCdaJBkb7JQ06Rk9A+AuMztYM7uay4+7Irfxe sfVBZ8V7cDRKi1GW8nAEAq3CFo4OGCt1YLTeYIbLrClza9Z051FfXAGhCRr3kKonolQu 6rTwmL82qgcI/aX6Vyun430ZLjvjeWTA9g1E6f0sBVkdghLstsOFNhIEsFop0jS5TNnh wo/j6xqC7s+YTQr4G2N4fmNsGuFb43sZTM9Rn9yAHrSM0OAbnefdEEu/He8YwdW5mHgH Odig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=u8aB+ocuC2F2O9Qy8sYTmdtIvlss1tRDUNxSDfSUMfI=; b=X5rIx0e/OKDO0oIJrZDKHkpdVkG9nebXOjkQST6VMZqkImo2E0131NCQbjoTTPvNOy /pURNfZVss8vwPtyXM0JGTTkuDzfgi5ctpKqF7U0Snm53qfl/Go98cnufVI7WuB9vU2m MuocOoBRM7jaOFG3fcAw0jvNih70AcY7XKhnxilSupWoC0Q/Szzs0+IUJzaCVqwPD2dH eqAvBwt6bNcueNt9Gi4UTPIFfY3vqIRJEewR96uFwAJa5WIM9fskRsm8QcieaZUz5Aic k4xUnVgi06kuXzhfKKG4361viaFTV+TR30L8h2uFHkoo24PJFN8FuL7ye9ILJ+KOSDRz 1QWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLf+XKjY6u4TXTyIMZHAxwuyRYylroPb81TQSv4gH51kXYpFH3T S+zmW4dRVDSSyC/yItNM24ghAFWhjSl4/xagQG4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5f33DklL0wR+TPkfiTPMBMjNLHBu1OP/Clgwc9BviH3IcyniF2DBK4tehJvUxsUwmutLSH4F1uNyyoQbcLh78k= X-Received: by 2002:a25:9345:: with SMTP id g5-v6mr1496641ybo.101.1540086912753; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:55:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> <2899a801-f595-ceaa-ccba-8860fc3c18fb@pangea.org> <3ee64859-50b9-8bf9-2f41-da7434b2fa50@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <3ee64859-50b9-8bf9-2f41-da7434b2fa50@article19.org> From: "Michael J. Oghia" Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 21:54:35 -0400 Message-ID: To: amelia@article19.org Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, GAIA list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005ba5eb0578b36d71" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 01:55:18 -0000 --0000000000005ba5eb0578b36d71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for this Amelia. I hope to meet you one day and continue this conversation. Best, -Michael On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 2:22 PM Amelia Andersdotter wrote: > On 2018-10-20 19:18, Leandro Navarro wrote: > > > > Hi all, interesting discussion, > > > > On 20/10/18 13:30, Michael J. Oghia wrote: > >> Hi Amelia, Sonia, all: > >> > >> Forgive my ignorance, but I'm quite surprised to hear that USO/USF > >> within the EU context. I find it a bit disheartening, honestly. For > >> much time now, I've seen USO/USF as a positive policy option to > >> encourage network diversity and especially help small networks or > >> networks working in rural/remote areas (e.g.., CNs). > > > > USO in my limited understanding usually works against small networks, > > and nearly always only in favor of the largest "universal" (national) > > telecoms. The funds are given to a single (e.g. BT in UK, Telefonica > > in ES) national operator in exchange of connecting more of the > > unconnected users with a minimal service under a cost threshold. > > > > For instance, the UK recently has been revising the USO policy: > > > > > https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8146= #fullreport > > > BEREC has made a study here: > > https://berec.europa.eu/eng/document_register/subject_matter/berec/downlo= ad/0/6973-berec-update-survey-on-the-implementatio_0.pdf > > Among the six countries that have no USO in the EU, only Germany doesn't > have great infrastructure and three have very OK infra (EE, SE and RO). > US provisions can work out OK, but the problem is in the information > asymmetry: the big companies will be much better placed to argue with > regulators that funds should go to *them*. A USO strategy needs to take > into account this information asymmetry/power imbalance at the > regulator/regulatee level (can it be countered? how?). > > best regards, > > Amelia > > > > They are targeting a cost threshold of =C2=A33,400 per connection (limi= t > > from the total cost of implementation of several billions of GBP) to > > provide 10/1 Mbps connection. BT is the only USO provider (KCOM in a > > specific area for curious reasons). As you can see the focus is > > bringing more "customers" matching a minimum of quality by "feeding" > > the largest (most capable?) operator in that country. > > > > > https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/03/government-details-final-10= mbps-for-all-uk-broadband-uso-design.html > > > > For instance, one fibre community network fears the effect of that: > > > > > https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadba= nd-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html > > > > However there can be alternative models, where the funds are not given > > to just one operator, but to every citizen that qualifies. Bottom-up > > instead of top-down. That may contribute to increase alternatives and > > not just reinforce the largest operators (at the exchange of moving to > > a more "feudal" model): https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/ > > > > We also have/had a related discussion in the IRTF GAIA WG, and > > probably will reappear in the next IGF in the presentation of the next > > Global Information Society Watch report around community networks: > > > > > https://www.intgovforum.org/multilingual/es/content/igf-2018-apc-giswatch= -launch > > > > Cheers, Leandro. > > > >> > >> Given my lack of experience with actually building networks, though, > >> perhaps this is just naivety and wishful thinking on my part. I'm > >> glad that Sonia replied, though, because I had A4AI's 2018 paper > >> < > https://webfoundation.org/docs/2018/03/Using-USAFs-to-Close-the-Gender-Di= gital-Divide-in-Africa.pdf > > > >> on USO/USF in mind when drafting this email =E2=80=93 though models (a= nd > >> their outcomes) differ based on country policy, regional context, > >> politics, the amount of incumbent operators, etc. etc. I also > >> appreciate her qualification that, traditionally, USO have been more > >> effective in poorer countries (which is in line with my thought). > >> > >> So, thank you for clarifying @Sonia, and I'd be very interested in a > >> webinar on this. Please share the 2018 report next week when it's > >> published (I'm really interested in the policy implications > >> surrounding connectivity). > >> > >> Best, > >> -Michael > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:07 AM Sonia Jorge > >> >> > wrote: > >> > >> Hi All, > >> > >> Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a > >> webinar/conference call among interested people? Steve, what do > >> you think? I would be happy to join a stimulating discussion on > >> the topic, starting with your blog and the Access Model. > >> > >> Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything > >> you may have) that shows that relationship between USO and > >> quality of infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe > >> but open to be proven wrong. > >> > >> Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO > >> have been more instrumental are also countries that have > >> traditionally been poorer and behind in terms of infrastructure > >> development; this is certainly the case in some Southern European > >> countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well. So the level > >> of economic development overall is a key variable. > >> > >> As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a > >> lot here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports > >> we produced and that can add to the discussion. > >> - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability > >> Report: https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note > >> that the 2018 report will be launched and published on Tuesday > >> and addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, > >> specially on costs associated with infrastructure investment > >> - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and > >> challenges: > https://a4ai.org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/ > >> - For those interested in USFs in Africa, > >> see > https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource-= to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/ > >> > >> Best, > >> Sonia Jorge > >> Executive Director, A4AI > >> Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation > >> 1-617-905-7819 > >> > >> On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal > >>> Service > >>> Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also > >>> typically have > >>> worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well > >>> applied. > >>> Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it > >>> faces > >>> off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The > >>> service > >>> provider has information advantage and typically a better > >>> relationship > >>> to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a > >>> communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African > >>> markets > >>> and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues > >>> faced in > >>> various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar > >>> difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit > >>> theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information > >>> asymmetries? > >>> > >>> As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators > >>> A, B and > >>> C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) al= so > >>> incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. > >>> That's > >>> fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is > >>> owned by a > >>> few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is > >>> fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's > the > >>> main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of > >>> 1999 in > >>> the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile > >>> infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different > >>> actors > >>> have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or > where > >>> there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am = I > >>> misunderstanding something? > >>> > >>> best regards, > >>> > >>> Amelia > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: > >>>> Hi Mallory, > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in > >>>> terms > >>>> of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of > >>>> Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economi= c > >>>> historian, Fernand Braudel. Braudel argues that the world has > >>>> three > >>>> economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known > >>>> capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game > in > >>>> theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the > usual > >>>> suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the > >>>> Local > >>>> Economy where services are specific to the city/community where > you > >>>> live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even > >>>> larger service provider which offers services that grow out of > >>>> local > >>>> demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the > >>>> Global > >>>> Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where > market > >>>> forces may not operate because there is not sufficient tradition= al > >>>> capital to make it work. This is the world of the informal > economy > >>>> with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly > >>>> contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by > >>>> traditional statistics. And woven among these are both > >>>> commercial and > >>>> commons models, which can operate with varying success at the > >>>> different levels. > >>>> > >>>> When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation > has > >>>> only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that > >>>> there is > >>>> a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives > >>>> in the > >>>> Local and Subsistence economies. > >>>> > >>>> For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World > >>>> Bank's > >>>> Access Gap model > >>>> < > http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and-universal-access>. It > >>>> is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just > one-dimensional; > >>>> assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all > >>>> possible > >>>> outcomes. > >>>> > >>>> Writing more about this shortly. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers... Steve > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel > >>>> > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi Steve, > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really > >>>> enjoyed it.. I > >>>> think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, > >>>> well, that > >>>> could be another post in and of itself. > >>>> > >>>> The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we > >>>> have is a > >>>> sort of old-world economic structure that politically > >>>> controls and > >>>> profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up > >>>> nicely to > >>>> call for modern economic models ranging from squarely > >>>> capitalist to > >>>> socialist, and even (back to) the commons! > >>>> > >>>> I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who > have > >>>> raised > >>>> issues of centralisation on the list in the past. > >>>> > >>>> -Mallory > >>>> > >>>> On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: > >>>>> Hi all, > >>>>> > >>>>> This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre > >>>>> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just > >>>>> about > >>>>> everywhere). > >>>>> > >>>>> https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ > >>>>> > >>>>> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other > >>>> reactions > >>>>> you may have. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks..... Steve Song > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> gaia mailing list > >>>>> gaia@irtf.org > >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Mallory Knodel > >>>> Head of Digital :: article19.org > >>>> > >>>> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 > >>>> BD3C C780 > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> gaia mailing list > >>>> gaia@irtf.org > >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> +1 902 529 0046 > >>>> stevesong@nsrc.org > >>>> > >>>> http://nsrc..org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> hrpc mailing list > >>>> hrpc@irtf.org > >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Amelia Andersdotter > >>> Technical Consultant, Digital Programme > >>> > >>> ARTICLE19 > >>> www.article19.org > >>> > >>> PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> gaia mailing list > >>> gaia@irtf.org > >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gaia mailing list > >> gaia@irtf.org > >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> hrpc mailing list > >> hrpc@irtf.org > >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > -- > Amelia Andersdotter > Technical Consultant, Digital Programme > > ARTICLE19 > www.article19.org > > PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > --0000000000005ba5eb0578b36d71 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for this Amelia. I hope to meet you one day and con= tinue this conversation.

Best,
-Michael

=


On Sat, = Oct 20, 2018 at 2:22 PM Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org> wrote:
On 2018-10-20 19:18, Leandro Navarro wrote:
>
> Hi all, interesting discussion,
>
> On 20/10/18 13:30, Michael J. Oghia wrote:
>> Hi Amelia, Sonia, all:
>>
>> Forgive my ignorance, but I'm quite surprised to hear that USO= /USF
>> within the EU context. I find it a bit disheartening, honestly. Fo= r
>> much time now, I've seen USO/USF as a positive policy option t= o
>> encourage network diversity and especially help small networks or<= br> >> networks working in rural/remote areas (e.g.., CNs).
>
> USO in my limited understanding usually works against small networks,<= br> > and nearly always only in favor of the largest "universal" (= national)
> telecoms. The funds are given to a single (e.g. BT in UK, Telefonica > in ES) national operator in exchange of connecting more of the
> unconnected users with a minimal service under a cost threshold.
>
> For instance, the UK recently has been revising the USO policy:
>
> https://res= earchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8146#fullreport
>
BEREC has made a study here:
https://berec.europa.eu/eng/document_register/= subject_matter/berec/download/0/6973-berec-update-survey-on-the-implementat= io_0.pdf

Among the six countries that have no USO in the EU, only Germany doesn'= t
have great infrastructure and three have very OK infra (EE, SE and RO).
US provisions can work out OK, but the problem is in the information
asymmetry: the big companies will be much better placed to argue with
regulators that funds should go to *them*. A USO strategy needs to take
into account this information asymmetry/power imbalance at the
regulator/regulatee level (can it be countered? how?).

best regards,

Amelia


> They are targeting a cost threshold of =C2=A33,400 per connection (lim= it
> from the total cost of implementation of several billions of GBP) to > provide 10/1 Mbps connection. BT is the only USO provider (KCOM in a > specific area for curious reasons). As you can see the focus is
> bringing more "customers" matching a minimum of quality by &= quot;feeding"
> the largest (most capable?) operator in that country.
>
> https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/03/government= -details-final-10mbps-for-all-uk-broadband-uso-design.html
>
> For instance, one fibre community network fears the effect of that: >
> https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-= 10mbps-uk-broadband-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html
>
> However there can be alternative models, where the funds are not given=
> to just one operator, but to every citizen that qualifies. Bottom-up > instead of top-down. That may contribute to increase alternatives and<= br> > not just reinforce the largest operators (at the exchange of moving to=
> a more "feudal" model): https://b4rn.org.uk/b4r= n-service/gbvs/
>
> We also have/had a related discussion in the IRTF GAIA WG, and
> probably will reappear in the next IGF in the presentation of the next=
> Global Information Society Watch report around community networks:
>
> https://www.int= govforum.org/multilingual/es/content/igf-2018-apc-giswatch-launch
>
> Cheers, Leandro.
>
>>
>> Given my lack of experience with actually building networks, thoug= h,
>> perhaps this is just naivety and wishful thinking on my part. I= 9;m
>> glad that Sonia replied, though, because I had A4AI's 2018 pap= er
>> <https://webfoundation.org/docs/2018/03/Using-USAFs-to-Close-the= -Gender-Digital-Divide-in-Africa.pdf>
>> on USO/USF in mind when drafting this email =E2=80=93 though model= s (and
>> their outcomes) differ based on country policy, regional context,<= br> >> politics, the amount of incumbent operators, etc. etc. I also
>> appreciate her qualification that, traditionally, USO have been mo= re
>> effective in poorer countries (which is in line with my thought).<= br> >>
>> So, thank you for clarifying=C2=A0@Sonia, and I'd be very inte= rested in a
>> webinar on this. Please share the 2018 report next week when it= 9;s
>> published (I'm really interested in the policy implications >> surrounding connectivity).
>>
>> Best,
>> -Michael
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:07 AM Sonia Jorge
>> <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org
>> <mailto:sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi All,
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Interesting discussion here. One that might war= rant a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0webinar/conference call among interested people= ? Steve, what do
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you think? I would be happy to join a stimulati= ng discussion on
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the topic, starting with your blog and the Acce= ss Model.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a = paper (anything
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you may have) that shows that relationship betw= een USO and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0quality of infrastructure? I find that very dif= ficult to believe
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0but open to be proven wrong.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Something important to keep in mind is that cou= ntries where USO
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have been more instrumental are also countries = that have
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0traditionally been poorer and behind in terms o= f infrastructure
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0development; this is certainly the case in some= Southern European
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0countries and maybe Eastern European ones as we= ll. So the level
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of economic development overall is a key variab= le.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments= , I could share a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lot here, but for now let me call your attentio= n to some reports
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we produced and that can add to the discussion.= =C2=A0
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Report:=C2=A0https://a= 4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that the 2018 report will be launched and publi= shed on Tuesday
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and addresses key questions relevant to this di= scussion,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specially on costs associated with infrastructu= re investment
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- a recent blog on infrastructure costs and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0challenges:=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- For those interested in USFs in Africa,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0see=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/universal-ser= vice-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource-to-close-the-gender-digital-divi= de/
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sonia Jorge
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Executive Director, A4AI
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01-617-905-7819
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter<= br> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<amelia@article19.org <mailto:amelia@article19.org>> wrote: >>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi all,
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It might be helpful to know that EU countri= es where Universal
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Service
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Obligations have been extensively used and = applied, also
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0typically have
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0worse infrastructure than EU countries wher= e USO wasn't well
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0applied.
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Applying USO means you put the government i= n a position where it
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0faces
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0off with the service provider under USO in = a negotiation. The
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0service
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provider has information advantage and typi= cally a better
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0relationship
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to its consumers than the government has to= its citizens (so a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0communications advantage too). I lack exper= ience of the African
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0markets
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and their regulators, but in broad strokes = those are the issues
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0faced in
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0various European jurisdictions with USO and= I'm assuming similar
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0difficulties would arise in the African set= ting. This is a bit
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0theoretical, and I'm just curious how t= o avoid these information
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0asymmetries?
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As it is described by Steven, the current f= eudalism (operators
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A, B and
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C all collaborate as soon as they own physi= cal fibre networks) also
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0incentivises many actors to get into the in= frastructure market.
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0That's
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fundamentally a good thing: it means not al= l the last-mile is
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0owned by a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0few big actors who need to be regulated by = a regulator who is
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to= the big actors. It's the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0main criticism targetting the Local Loop Un= bundling reform of
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01999 in
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the EU as well - challengers don't inve= st enough in last-mile
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0infrastructure (except in those EU markets = where many different
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0actors
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have had regulatory incentives to build the= ir own networks, or where
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0there has been purposeful public investment= in last-mile). Or am I
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0misunderstanding something?
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0best regards,
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Amelia
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Mallory,
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I think you are = on exactly the right track in
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0terms
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of thinking about economic models.=C2= =A0 Thanks to Erick Huerta of
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the t= hinking of French economic
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0historian, Fernand Braudel.=C2=A0 Braud= el argues that the world has
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0three
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0economies not one.=C2=A0 A global econo= my which is the well-known
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0capitalist economic model where monopol= y is the perfect end-game in
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0theory for every player.=C2=A0 Google, = Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suspects form part of this economy.=C2= =A0 The second economy is the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Local
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Economy where services are specific to = the city/community where you
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0live.=C2=A0 This might be your local bu= tcher, baker, plumbers or even
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0larger service provider which offers se= rvices that grow out of
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0local
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0demand and which serve local needs in m= ore unique ways than the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Global
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Economy.=C2=A0 The third economy is the= Subsistence economy where market
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0forces may not operate because there is= not sufficient traditional
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0capital to make it work.=C2=A0 This is = the world of the informal economy
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with barters, cooperatives, community i= nitiatives that directly
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contribute to the overall economy but a= re largely unmeasured by
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0traditional statistics.=C2=A0 And woven= among these are both
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0commercial and
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0commons models, which can operate with = varying success at the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0When viewed through this lens, it is ea= sy to see how regulation has
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0only enabled the global economy in tele= communication and that
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0there is
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a need for enabling regulations to nurt= ure telecom initiatives
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Local and Subsistence economies.=C2=A0= =C2=A0
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For me this also highlights a key flaw = in models like the World
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bank's
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Access Gap model
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and-universal-access<= /a>>.=C2=A0It
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is not so much that the model is wrong,= it is just one-dimensional;
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0assuming that successful global capital= ism is the best of all
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0outcomes.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Writing more about this shortly.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers... Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Kn= odel
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mallory@article19.org <mailto:mallory@article19.org><= br> >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:mallory@article19.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hi Steve,
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks for sharing. I= read it last night and I really
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0enjoyed it.. I
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0think the metaphor is= solid economically. And politically,
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0well, that
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0could be another post= in and of itself.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The agrarian commons = would of course be ideal, but what we
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have is a
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sort of old-world eco= nomic structure that politically
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0controls and
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0profits from (what sh= ould be) the commons. This sets you up
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0nicely to
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0call for modern econo= mic models ranging from squarely
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0capitalist to
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0socialist, and even (= back to) the commons!
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'm CCing HRPC be= cause it might be of interest to those who have
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0raised
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0issues of centralisat= ion on the list in the past.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-Mallory
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0On 04/10/2018 15:30, = Steve Song wrote:
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This is a reflection on the current= state of terrestrial fibre
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Afric= a (but I think applies just
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https:= //manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Curious to know how apt you feel th= e metaphor is or any other
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reactions
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you may have.=C2=A0
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks..... Steve Song
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0___________________________________= ____________
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gaia mailing list
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org> <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.irtf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0--
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Mallory Knodel
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Head of Digital :: article= 19.org <http://article19.org>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://article19.org>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gpg fingerprint :: E3= EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BD3C C780
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0_____________________= __________________________
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia mailing list
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org> <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0http= s://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 902 529 0046
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stevesong@nsrc.org <mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://nsrc..org <http://nsrc.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________= ________
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hrpc mailing list
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/hrpc
>>>
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Amelia Andersdotter
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Technical Consultant, Digital Programme
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ARTICLE19
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0www.article19.org <http://www.article1= 9.org>
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C29= 4 B4E8 0B55
>>>
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0___________________________________________= ____
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gaia mailing list
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/gaia
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gaia mailing list
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/gaia
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> hrpc mailing list
>> hrpc@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
w= ww.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
--0000000000005ba5eb0578b36d71-- From nobody Sat Oct 20 21:14:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3F4130ED9 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 21:14:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=XKN32vOw; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=RH8pBv11 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5g0cAmsGr3Ie for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 21:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2364F130E1A for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2018 21:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6239EBD3E8 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 04:14:05 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1540095245; bh=aKhdAhTnuo06Q17+YGN741+ALfLTg2zEaXfrkV0n4eo=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=XKN32vOwseKAOaROmnN5YkH416U7RkiegskDCLIg+6PLZ5M/b8A2Aa6L3Y6IRmuAu 0xTKJkkHh0q1B0nZESRp6TTMXUc5i0B+cfCOKcoyQnFXQ+xqxYgXTJ73uPhcgUEEBP pwFoScnicVc8HxHDNDHlnGE2/wE4kyPkBPZV5Asw= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HuARE4aEczDz for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 04:14:03 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:14:01 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1540095243; bh=aKhdAhTnuo06Q17+YGN741+ALfLTg2zEaXfrkV0n4eo=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=RH8pBv11Iw8Wg3AfzPURH4E6AYQoaWpsUCIt0LiPEMHK1LWjIEoXMe37/A/WlukGR QC4Jll+xN8HHr9EqYUpEnTKFfR13sCvfSnYbvAC8U4Lqn9JYRves/FCi48KHmLIJve GHrqU3k1cCiSXhcy7rxmiEEbKcjmyn85zMUcLKfI= From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 04:14:39 -0000 Hi, On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 11:54:16PM +0200, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > My motivation for attempting to work on this follows from having > noticed an inherent tension. As you point out, there will be cases > when filtering is bad, cases in which filtering is good, and cases > in which it may be bad or good but it is also unavoidable since it > is mandated by force by people (governments) that have the mandate > to do so. At the same time, the IETF seems to churn out protocols > (lastly DNS-over-HTTPS) that make filtering harder or impossible at > all, as if filtering did not exist or, if it existed, all of it were > bad. I think that the DoH work was an attempt to improve certain privacy aspects of name resolution (possibly at the expense of certain other privacy aspects -- indeed, in some deployments DoH would make filtering quite a bit easier), not to act as though filtering did not exist or is bad. Moreover, it's not like this topic has never been considered by anyone; the IAB put out a pretty comprehensive discussion of the topic some while ago (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7754). > So how can we get the IETF to analyze the topic and come to a shared >view on how to deal with this in protocols, i.e. either accept the >fact that protocols have to support (or at least not to impede) the >cases in which filtering is good, or take a public stance that all >filtering is bad and be ready to explain it to a number of other >parties that need it? I think that, to get that party started, you'd need to define what "filtering is good" and "filtering is bad" means. I am not sure I know how to do that, but I do encourate reading of RFC 7754 for an exploration of some effects on the Internet. > their governments will just start ordering the ISPs to block stuff at the IP address / routing level > "Start"? Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Sun Oct 21 01:02:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E3F12785F for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 01:02:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.563 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.563 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.064, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xMzQnRgTq4AT for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 01:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7161D124D68 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 01:02:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9266; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1540108965; x=1541318565; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to; bh=ZBGp/zyUa9NPrTas6F1Cdy9RMGbLg2grAAr8OlZFvZs=; b=e42aXEtlpX3/uPySWwXyeimZiVIh4YtKgNb+NjPrttLkd8SWGt08UDYx v0QjtdKsDbAZij1X5PMziYsVe78bjBeEKuCBdwqft2Teqomi2R4+7doss c4oBAhjd4iFIbb2B5H0v0a8iZ4xRtkzuA3XeNDhYk1H48XJLy4Uwj11jj g=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A9AAAUMsxb/xbLJq1kGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAQGBZYJrbRKEHYh3jSElkU2HQggFH4RNAoUpOBYBAwEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAm0cDIU6AQEBAQIBI1QHCwkCDgoqAgJXBgEMCAEBgx0BgXkID4hfm02BLh+?= =?us-ascii?q?BGYhLCgWCbYh8ggCBOAyCX4MbAQEDhGGCVwKJGpUuCYQPgW5ligoGF4kzhnu?= =?us-ascii?q?MWIcegmeBWiGBVTMaCBsVgyiLGIVAPYt4AQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.54,407,1534809600"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="7408546" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Oct 2018 08:02:43 +0000 Received: from [10.61.109.57] (dhcp-10-61-109-57.cisco.com [10.61.109.57]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w9L82gLF027439; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:02:42 GMT To: Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: <5e17bafc-92e0-d9ef-4471-b19bb5f46f6b@cisco.com> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 10:02:41 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="kSVh2YcyBFuX8MsYe9EPDZd7TNMzB5fr4" X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.109.57, dhcp-10-61-109-57.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:02:48 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --kSVh2YcyBFuX8MsYe9EPDZd7TNMzB5fr4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="qMXMp6uHK6Tuz4DaFgk8YJJsJW7Ky2FZr"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <5e17bafc-92e0-d9ef-4471-b19bb5f46f6b@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> In-Reply-To: <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> --qMXMp6uHK6Tuz4DaFgk8YJJsJW7Ky2FZr Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------018769E057A0423E668317FE" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------018769E057A0423E668317FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andrew, On 21.10.18 06:14, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Moreover, it's not like this topic has never been > considered by anyone; the IAB put out a pretty comprehensive > discussion of the topic some while ago > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7754).=20 Indeed.=C2=A0 That work sets out a pretty good framework, and it took a l= ot of work to get it to that point.=C2=A0 It would be good for this draft to= either talk about the examples given in the context of that work, or to maybe explain whatever different framework the authors have in mind.=C2=A0= I do like this draft having come up with more real world examples, and I especially like the exploration of the doubled-edged sword to much of this.=C2=A0 I also agree with Fred that delving a bit more into mechanism= would be useful.=C2=A0 That can at least in part happen by referencing RF= C 7754. Long ago, I wrote with a few people RFC 1627 whose subtitle is, =E2=80=9C= Some practices shouldn=E2=80=99t be codified=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 If this draft wan= ted to tackle the value and risks in the context of HR of various mechanisms, that would also be interesting, and perhaps even a continuation of 7754. But a further caution- much of this technology is =E2=80=9Cdual use=E2=80= =9D.=C2=A0 Let me give an example.=C2=A0 Suppose there were a mechanism for content tagging= =2E=C2=A0 Tools within a business might use it to flag content that contains PII that is restricted in some way,=C2=A0 within the business (e.g., content = not leaving a particular country's borders) or requiring encryption to the customer or even within a business' borders.=C2=A0 It is true that some businesses do this today not via tagging, but within the business logic, but it requires a lot of CPU, and a lot of planning and work.=C2=A0 Could= that be eased?=C2=A0 I don't know.=C2=A0 There are definite differences i= n model, whether one implements such tagging within our outside the envelope of encryption, and those would have dramatic HR differences. Also, such mechanisms tug on another tension. Going WAY WAY back to early discussions in this group,=C2=A0 you wrote on 14. Nov. 2016: > Still, the Internet (as opposed to the IETF) might > have as its core value that expansion of Internet-type communications > and connectivity is a good (this is like the "selfish gene" value some > biologists and sociobiologists believe in). From this we can infer > that anything that improves that connectivity is positive and anything > that impedes that connectivity is negative. =20 To be clear, in the context of the above note, I think you were merely arguing that this *could* be true, not that it is true.=C2=A0 If it is tr= ue, then does it hold that we should standardize mechanisms that might have human rights harms associated with them that encourage a single Internet?=C2=A0 Certainly content filtering and tagging have harms, so we= seem to have a good test case at hand ;-) ** Eliot --------------018769E057A0423E668317FE Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Andrew,

On 21.10.18 06:14, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
Moreover, it's not like this topic has never been
considered by anyone; the IAB put out a pretty comprehensive
discussion of the topic some while ago
(https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7754)=
=2E

Indeed.=C2=A0 That work sets out a pretty good framework, and it took= a lot of work to get it to that point.=C2=A0 It would be good for this draft to either talk about the examples given in the context of that work, or to maybe explain whatever different framework the authors have in mind.=C2=A0 I do like this draft having come up with more rea= l world examples, and I especially like the exploration of the doubled-edged sword to much of this.=C2=A0 I also agree with Fred tha= t delving a bit more into mechanism would be useful.=C2=A0 That can at least in part happen by referencing RFC 7754.

Long ago, I wrote with a few people RFC 1627 whose subtitle is, =E2=80=9CSome practices shouldn=E2=80=99t be codified=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0= If this draft wanted to tackle the value and risks in the context of HR of various mechanisms, that would also be interesting, and perhaps even a continuation of 7754.

But a further caution- much of this technology is =E2=80=9Cdual use=E2= =80=9D.=C2=A0 Let me give an example.=C2=A0 Suppose there were a mechanism for content tagging.=C2=A0 Tools within a business might use it to flag content t= hat contains PII that is restricted in some way,=C2=A0 within the busines= s (e.g., content not leaving a particular country's borders) or requiring encryption to the customer or even within a business' borders.=C2=A0 It is true that some businesses do this today not via tagging, but within the business logic, but it requires a lot of CPU, and a lot of planning and work.=C2=A0 Could that be eased?=C2=A0= I don't know.=C2=A0 There are definite differences in model, whether one implements such tagging within our outside the envelope of encryption, and those would have dramatic HR differences.

Also, such mechanisms tug on another tension. Going WAY WAY back to early discussions in this group,=C2=A0 you wrote on 14. Nov. 2016: 
Still, the Internet (as opposed to the IETF=
) might
have as its core value that expansion of Internet-type communications
and connectivity is a good (this is like the "selfish gene" value some
biologists and sociobiologists believe in).  From this we can infer
that anything that improves that connectivity is positive and anything
that impedes that connectivity is negative.

To be clear, in the context of the above note, I think you were merely arguing that this could be true, not that it is true.=C2=A0 If it is true, then does it hold that we should standardi= ze mechanisms that might have human rights harms associated with them that encourage a single Internet?=C2=A0 Certainly content filtering a= nd tagging have harms, so we seem to have a good test case at hand ;-)
Eliot
--------------018769E057A0423E668317FE-- --qMXMp6uHK6Tuz4DaFgk8YJJsJW7Ky2FZr-- --kSVh2YcyBFuX8MsYe9EPDZd7TNMzB5fr4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAlvMMqEACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejMDfwf+IDzNgDpizuiiPALRrnGmkvFS2wpNf3tf+nij4XjATq0TamIkxRH+VeBW nwaSOPQ0fjKoQrE1/bkpNGIMqpACRIbjlkRvjrovYH1SbxEzMfpAI0AcPtWQOLYF x9iuaZBdBA508czXvudNAlt5AAmEkPGWD7i+KOIZ01oG8JwvY25rbQa5soNxQLD4 cixeAr1C07YIo+btBCigy0z+7cJisIM+3HAA6gCRWgsFrKRXxKK/XdGcOH8kImDF IMoLhlc5QsX96O4KIs58vD31OKGB/A/KtmN9/DbxR4Co1fS2miMsYW7tRqXKYx/h otsS29DfulZShE2YHwT/iHJ1IoMvnQ== =l4Cl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --kSVh2YcyBFuX8MsYe9EPDZd7TNMzB5fr4-- From nobody Sun Oct 21 01:36:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C80B130F3B for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 01:35:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=ZVkci5y6; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=a3Ae7qhp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U828iJd74dNv for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 01:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6F53130F39 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 01:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FA0BD3E8 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:35:17 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1540110917; bh=N6KQRk5BFDhIjxvhp8BeUJc8EbnHbxmLgpDWXd0B1cU=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=ZVkci5y6HgjwGyZw59GABPYJEg1j/4SXu0pMro8o4qz0EubGThOxYru2fOcF7Af4m ma+lWBNewUd7eIwqRPx1Z66rl5cATU0V6+QeXae5RolWjru5MQ5LBbew50HnShun0w RXlUiJVL78nmFAm/XV5ww6KlNUNXT4Cu5+BZe1h8= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O8DQbPXKyP4s for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:35:16 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 10:35:13 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1540110916; bh=N6KQRk5BFDhIjxvhp8BeUJc8EbnHbxmLgpDWXd0B1cU=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=a3Ae7qhpAxt8aXEtSt1zjA5Ftlye5EvsKM+vVV0sBUOUb4U8aJ+UZLONSubyaZvkg S8w7THvTho83lYcpp/x39VVFKvAwcoI93TQEFQ0bPEEviqWwCpzVc4gHHZQ4dHzYu7 y+8nuZiY83MsefrahiwK8hhp/BEI0IwkL6+FCFZg= From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20181021083513.vpxth2a7va2aw3yi@mx4.yitter.info> References: <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> <5e17bafc-92e0-d9ef-4471-b19bb5f46f6b@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <5e17bafc-92e0-d9ef-4471-b19bb5f46f6b@cisco.com> Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt) X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:36:04 -0000 On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:02:41AM +0200, Eliot Lear wrote: > > Still, the Internet (as opposed to the IETF) might > > have as its core value that expansion of Internet-type communications > > and connectivity is a good (this is like the "selfish gene" value some > > biologists and sociobiologists believe in). From this we can infer > > that anything that improves that connectivity is positive and anything > > that impedes that connectivity is negative. > > To be clear, in the context of the above note, I think you were merely > arguing that this *could* be true, not that it is true.  If it is true, > then does it hold that we should standardize mechanisms that might have > human rights harms associated with them that encourage a single > Internet?  Certainly content filtering and tagging have harms, so we > seem to have a good test case at hand ;-) I think there's a lot to unpack in your "should", and I want to be quite careful. What I was trying out in that passage you quote was really the plausibility of an alternative ethical framework. The HRPC RG starts from the assumption that human rights are a framework for what amount to ethical considerations in protocol design. That is the basis for Niels' oft-repeated quoting that protocols are politics by other means. Certain ethical stances (such as various environmental ethics authors starting perhaps from John Muir and perhaps from Baruch Spinoza) regard many ethical systems as anthropocentric or even speciesist. That is, there is too great an emphasis on the state of the humans in the ethical stance, and not enough attention paid to other agents of the world. This strain is particularly evident in environmental philosophy, because we are part of the natural world and yet we seem perfectly willing to despoil that world in our own interests. This strain of environmental ethics requires that we take into account in evaluating what is "good" (and therefore what we should do) not only good-for-people but also good-for-animals, good-for-trees, good-for-forest-system, &c &c. In a different vein, Aristotelean virtue ethics cultivates a view of virtue that need not extend only to humans, but that almost certainly requires a kind of proportionality in just about every case (which would at least arguably extend to the wider world, and not only to humanity). Now, let us take seriously the idea that we create certain kinds of systemic technologies which alter reality such that the systemic technology has a certain logic of its own that is not necessarily the same as the instrumental logic that created the technology in the first place. This is one of the meanings of that aphorism I like, "We shape our tools, and thereafter they shape us."[1] It seems to me at least plausible that the Internet is one such tool. And in that case, it might be that there is an "ethic of the network" that has as its overarching value connecting nodes. I owe to Ted Hardie the observation that such an ethic could be paradoxical across different layers. You might get _fewer_ connection paths through a social media network in the sense that the social media environments are often not really _part of_ the Internet but simply on top of it; but in that case, you might still get _more connection_ because of the ease of use for ordinary humans, who can use it to build more connections. Under this view, there isn't a conflict of rights in the sense that a mechanism that could be used to harm human rights get standardized, but instead a conflict of ethical systems (in rather the way that utilitarian and deontological ethical frameworks can sometimes yield different results). Anyway, I hope that explains what I was on about. Whether it is germaine to the topic I will leave for others to determine. Best regards, A [1] Interestingly, an obvious example of this is the built environment. A version of this quote, substituting "buildings" for "tools", is attributed to Winston Churchill, though I've never tracked down the original. -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Sun Oct 21 02:14:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62806127332 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 02:14:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.565 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.565 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.064, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W6mawEx7YpOM for ; 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i="5.54,407,1534809600"; d="asc'?scan'208"; a="7350289" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Oct 2018 09:14:28 +0000 Received: from [10.61.109.57] (dhcp-10-61-109-57.cisco.com [10.61.109.57]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w9L9EShZ002849; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 09:14:28 GMT To: Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org References: <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> <5e17bafc-92e0-d9ef-4471-b19bb5f46f6b@cisco.com> <20181021083513.vpxth2a7va2aw3yi@mx4.yitter.info> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNJUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAb2Zjb3Vyc2VpbXJpZ2h0LmNvbT7CwJEEEwECADsCGwMC HgECF4ACGQEWIQSY0L2QRh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgID AQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6MyMyCACXvtFjAYGMtOkD9MD4nI3ifFpkrj8xTMbXjrv5hdqmzRmQ0wqA 1U/OlZux+P/NaVMiZNZc8zw0nsx/INAqDOVd4/tLWF+ywTkeRFR0VnaUxLwCReZAZOaRS+md +52u/6ddoFja2RnjZ43qbbuvVUARQVIyMJz+GbR6mEZQHR0psD7dDYZDyrpivCxm8zHQwmB6 AZUlO7OJgljDvVPVDCabg/ZnJw1qS0OzSiNb0MySk1D5A7FdwDgeKxuMYUOOoVVTTMWNWcME UkRX9LxElswEt0PQWiz/j3FYXTxiFfl/1vKcHx4pM+E5C5mhTbrdFUFLJC3Y5fLID7stK/Ch aEaBzsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Ma cj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGoHOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U 7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExddqV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcY Y/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5cHUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU +tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypucGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5 ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkFAlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c6 2pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHSiXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnX HXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGwf2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycj PAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoAMjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPF OmDhJSmH55HLAky2MlmqJYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt 2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNRzGbgqoT1Di03RQ== Message-ID: <793c778b-cac9-1a08-dbac-21915a573624@cisco.com> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 11:14:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181021083513.vpxth2a7va2aw3yi@mx4.yitter.info> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6gzrv9D6ZVZHvPM3ypXh2jqT8qcVN1BAy" X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.109.57, dhcp-10-61-109-57.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt) X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 09:14:33 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --6gzrv9D6ZVZHvPM3ypXh2jqT8qcVN1BAy Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="CTXuSo7fEs48TmzIZYctqBAmkTjAR9VRo"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <793c778b-cac9-1a08-dbac-21915a573624@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt) References: <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> <5e17bafc-92e0-d9ef-4471-b19bb5f46f6b@cisco.com> <20181021083513.vpxth2a7va2aw3yi@mx4.yitter.info> In-Reply-To: <20181021083513.vpxth2a7va2aw3yi@mx4.yitter.info> --CTXuSo7fEs48TmzIZYctqBAmkTjAR9VRo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Hi Andrew, Thanks for the explanation.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m glad you made the distincti= on between ethics systems, but that in itself leads to a question for our community: do we as a community (if that is what we are) subscribe to a single ethics system, and if not, can we reconcile the differences between such systems in our code?=C2=A0 Is adherence to a single ethics system required as part of our standardization efforts, and what are the ramifications either way?=C2=A0 Might someone form an alternative Nihilist-Network Engineering Task Force ;-)? The reason I revived this earlier point is because it is fundamental to blocking and filtering, as to whether we have one Internet or more than one Internet, and it is a question that is squarely in view, given Eric Schmidt's comments in September, and a New York Times Editorial this past week. Eliot On 21.10.18 10:35, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:02:41AM +0200, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> Still, the Internet (as opposed to the IETF) might >>> have as its core value that expansion of Internet-type communications= >>> and connectivity is a good (this is like the "selfish gene" value som= e >>> biologists and sociobiologists believe in). From this we can infer >>> that anything that improves that connectivity is positive and anythin= g >>> that impedes that connectivity is negative. =20 >> To be clear, in the context of the above note, I think you were merely= >> arguing that this *could* be true, not that it is true.=C2=A0 If it is= true, >> then does it hold that we should standardize mechanisms that might hav= e >> human rights harms associated with them that encourage a single >> Internet?=C2=A0 Certainly content filtering and tagging have harms, so= we >> seem to have a good test case at hand ;-) > I think there's a lot to unpack in your "should", and I want to be > quite careful. > > What I was trying out in that passage you quote was really the > plausibility of an alternative ethical framework. The HRPC RG starts > from the assumption that human rights are a framework for what amount > to ethical considerations in protocol design. That is the basis for > Niels' oft-repeated quoting that protocols are politics by other > means. > > Certain ethical stances (such as various environmental ethics authors > starting perhaps from John Muir and perhaps from Baruch Spinoza) > regard many ethical systems as anthropocentric or even speciesist. > That is, there is too great an emphasis on the state of the humans in > the ethical stance, and not enough attention paid to other agents of > the world. This strain is particularly evident in environmental > philosophy, because we are part of the natural world and yet we seem > perfectly willing to despoil that world in our own interests. This > strain of environmental ethics requires that we take into account in > evaluating what is "good" (and therefore what we should do) not only > good-for-people but also good-for-animals, good-for-trees, > good-for-forest-system, &c &c. In a different vein, Aristotelean > virtue ethics cultivates a view of virtue that need not extend only to > humans, but that almost certainly requires a kind of proportionality > in just about every case (which would at least arguably extend to the > wider world, and not only to humanity). > > Now, let us take seriously the idea that we create certain kinds of > systemic technologies which alter reality such that the systemic > technology has a certain logic of its own that is not necessarily the > same as the instrumental logic that created the technology in the > first place. This is one of the meanings of that aphorism I like, "We > shape our tools, and thereafter they shape us."[1] It seems to me at > least plausible that the Internet is one such tool. And in that case, > it might be that there is an "ethic of the network" that has as its > overarching value connecting nodes. > > I owe to Ted Hardie the observation that such an ethic could be > paradoxical across different layers. You might get _fewer_ connection > paths through a social media network in the sense that the social > media environments are often not really _part of_ the Internet but > simply on top of it; but in that case, you might still get _more > connection_ because of the ease of use for ordinary humans, who can > use it to build more connections. > > Under this view, there isn't a conflict of rights in the sense that a > mechanism that could be used to harm human rights get standardized, > but instead a conflict of ethical systems (in rather the way that > utilitarian and deontological ethical frameworks can sometimes yield > different results). > > Anyway, I hope that explains what I was on about. Whether it is > germaine to the topic I will leave for others to determine. > > Best regards, > > A > > [1] Interestingly, an obvious example of this is the built > environment. A version of this quote, substituting "buildings" for > "tools", is attributed to Winston Churchill, though I've never tracked > down the original. > --CTXuSo7fEs48TmzIZYctqBAmkTjAR9VRo-- --6gzrv9D6ZVZHvPM3ypXh2jqT8qcVN1BAy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAlvMQ3MACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejPPfAgAzccz2IBnGyjTjgQUp1jLN1E3QSU23OMNXVaI0CkHPrHY4iBShcHXP0vv bgVzqDK4WJBrJlnGwBVP8Mr4BDHd0afJLoap6YeGX7kPuPk0/Iu9lN1vLZ5fhCzd 4dLtwXUkGb11S9F+xyCcmi4TAUfjaaJptUEsTpAgu3L65hIieDUjEqJn57sASaWH dzjQ1K3oUfIwmDW08gbhaWaTPJvt4I4tdFl5HnKl0x/HqxM56R4xl2j5R8oFzYXu mX6aubUU+UGt5Zj3+9Za20OJR5dzxP2orYjOuTBSvfIYTbuTTDYOLLixiHfRRiz1 g9ajw03aty5s1CVW74S46aGTU05t2A== =OJkK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6gzrv9D6ZVZHvPM3ypXh2jqT8qcVN1BAy-- From nobody Sun Oct 21 06:53:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F271F12F295; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:53:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id riVItnA5FkbE; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-f169.google.com (mail-qk1-f169.google.com [209.85.222.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AFBD128B14; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-f169.google.com with SMTP id p3-v6so3410314qkb.5; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:53:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f5igCrUjFcSufWpMzIerxf/Tazj92w+dpOGshZm4MHw=; b=ZpZmX+kNeZpYgm3t66WPGgzegG3LEdF5kkBkcenlZBuIfZ9OgeSeQtoU3H0X4QFzlZ L+2SCn1T8bXQ0aV+2YUJ22i65eoNx1ZeYqwZRIlP3BaOGH/Wa45gUTKfaF1urjEHoZLD qbwx7CHP+GfiUrY3cUOvvjWpoqu1k4u9vLKKS6kG64BhUsWE5DOVoKAKm75lS5Xvbh2/ B+PK2eUWd8xn0RsfSl5vjIYSzXNoV1bofNLGmqJtUFZmRuA6RIpQVd8p+O3vJmZQp2wH qnWP/j45mL8sY0y4QK/L0V+5ubZJOlE6kP0EUiSFbqSzohBsfhOc2Wvc+zPLqWK76bLr ySWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohlZKOKOYUrmupVY2LwQ5ugrzFU1CiBCtnXsbN+oAT716F1SHj4 rLPKNYN7nR5xLpp6N9vfqJ+72YZr6JvR8zXS6cSjSA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV60sur65wK/9y7FB8KN92qFRPNQEGa32HkcmgLsHSWQUELK6nQuMvR2oM61ID4seBaoVERuSft5MAIc2eD+gZK0= X-Received: by 2002:a37:128f:: with SMTP id 15-v6mr15539930qks.182.1540129996521; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:53:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> In-Reply-To: <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> From: Steve Song Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 10:53:04 -0300 Message-ID: To: gaia Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059c5960578bd755b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 13:53:21 -0000 --00000000000059c5960578bd755b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Amelia, Sonia, I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be happy to participate in a discussion on this. Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally restricted to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again) to be a terrible idea. I hope we can agree that we should stop doing that. For me the issue is about power and control and the way it is used to impede competition. The cost of technology has plummeted in both fibre and wireless technologies. In theory that should have been a boon for competition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along with exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost impenetrable barrier to market entry. Any government intervention in universal service should obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well as ownership of and access to core networks. Cheers... Steve On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge wrote: > Hi All, > > Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference > call among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy = to > join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and t= he > Access Model. > > Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may > have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of > infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be prov= en > wrong. > > Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been > more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer > and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the > case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones = as > well. So the level of economic development overall is a key variable. > > As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here= , > but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced and th= at > can add to the discussion. > - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: > https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 > report will be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key > questions relevant to this discussion, specially on costs associated with > infrastructure investment > - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: > https://a4ai.org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/ > - For those interested in USFs in Africa, see > https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource-= to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/ > > Best, > Sonia Jorge > Executive Director, A4AI > Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation > 1-617-905-7819 > > On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter > wrote: > > Hi all, > > It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service > Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have > worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. > Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces > off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service > provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship > to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a > communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets > and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in > various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar > difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit > theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information > asymmetries? > > As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and > C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also > incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's > fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a > few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is > fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the > main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in > the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile > infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors > have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where > there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I > misunderstanding something? > > best regards, > > Amelia > > > > On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: > > Hi Mallory, > > > Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in terms > > of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of > > Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic > > historian, Fernand Braudel. Braudel argues that the world has three > > economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known > > capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in > > theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual > > suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the Local > > Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you > > live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even > > larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local > > demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global > > Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market > > forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional > > capital to make it work. This is the world of the informal economy > > with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly > > contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by > > traditional statistics. And woven among these are both commercial and > > commons models, which can operate with varying success at the > > different levels. > > > When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has > > only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is > > a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the > > Local and Subsistence economies. > > > For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's > > Access Gap model > > . It > > is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; > > assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible > > outcomes. > > > Writing more about this shortly. > > > Cheers... Steve > > > > On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel > >> wrote: > > > Hi Steve, > > > Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I > > think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that > > could be another post in and of itself. > > > The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a > > sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and > > profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to > > call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to > > socialist, and even (back to) the commons! > > > I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have > > raised > > issues of centralisation on the list in the past. > > > -Mallory > > > On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: > > Hi all, > > > This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre > > infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about > > everywhere). > > > https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ > > > Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other > > reactions > > you may have. > > > Thanks.... Steve Song > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gaia mailing list > > gaia@irtf.org > > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > -- > > Mallory Knodel > > Head of Digital :: article19.org > > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > > _______________________________________________ > > gaia mailing list > > gaia@irtf.org > > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > -- > > +1 902 529 0046 > > stevesong@nsrc.org > > > http://nsrc..org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > -- > Amelia Andersdotter > Technical Consultant, Digital Programme > > ARTICLE19 > www.article19.org > > PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 > > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > --=20 +1 902 529 0046 stevesong@nsrc.org http://nsrc.org --00000000000059c5960578bd755b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Amelia, Sonia,

I agree this is a ver= y interesting and timely debate and I would be happy to participate in a di= scussion on this.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Universal service fu= nds that involve (or in many cases are legally restricted to) giving money = back to the incumbents to build out infrastructure has proven (over and ove= r and over again) to be a terrible idea.=C2=A0 I hope we can agree that we = should stop doing that.=C2=A0 For me the issue is about power and control a= nd the way it is used to impede competition.=C2=A0 The cost of technology h= as plummeted in both fibre and wireless technologies.=C2=A0 In theory that = should have been a boon for competition but high spectrum auction fees and = licenses along with exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an alm= ost impenetrable barrier to market entry.=C2=A0 Any government intervention= in universal service should obliged to address the issue of market permeab= ility as well as ownership of and access to core networks.

Cheers... Steve

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org> wrote:
Hi All,

Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conf= erence call among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be h= appy to join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog= and the Access Model.=C2=A0

Amelia, can you point= me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may have) that shows that rel= ationship between USO and quality of infrastructure? I find that very diffi= cult to believe but open to be proven wrong.=C2=A0

Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been = more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer an= d behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the case= in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones as wel= l. So the level of economic development overall is a key variable.=C2=A0
As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot h= ere, but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced and= that can add to the discussion.=C2=A0
- A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Af= fordability Report:=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report= /2017/. Note that the 2018 report will be launched and published on Tue= sday and addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, specially on = costs associated with infrastructure investment
- a recent blog o= n infrastructure costs and challenges:=C2=A0https://a4ai= .org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/
<= div>
Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive Director, A4AI
Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation
1-617-905-7819

On Oct 20= , 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org> wrote:

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
Hi all,

It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal= Service
Obligations have been extensively used and applied= , also typically have
worse infrastructure than EU countrie= s where USO wasn't well applied.
Applying USO means you= put the government in a position where it faces
off with t= he service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service
provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship
to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a=
communications advantage too). I lack experience of the Af= rican markets
and their regulators, but in broad strokes th= ose are the issues faced in
various European jurisdictions = with USO and I'm assuming similar
difficulties would ar= ise in the African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and = I'm just curious how to avoid these information
asymmet= ries?

As it is described by Steven, the cu= rrent feudalism (operators A, B and
C all collaborate as so= on as they own physical fibre networks) also
incentivises m= any actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's
fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a<= /span>
few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who = is
fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big acto= rs. It's the
main criticism targetting the Local Loop U= nbundling reform of 1999 in
the EU as well - challengers do= n't invest enough in last-mile
infrastructure (except i= n those EU markets where many different actors
have had reg= ulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where
th= ere has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I
= misunderstanding something?

best reg= ards,

Amelia



On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote= :
Hi Mallory,

Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I think you are on exactly the righ= t track in terms
of = thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks to Erick Huerta of
<= /blockquote>
Rhizomatica, I am very taken wi= th the thinking of French economic
historian, Fernand Braudel.=C2=A0 Braudel argues that the w= orld has three
econo= mies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which is the well-known
capitalist economic model where mo= nopoly is the perfect end-game in
theory for every player.=C2=A0 Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, = all the usual
suspec= ts form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The second economy is the Local<= br>
Economy where services are = specific to the city/community where you
live.=C2=A0 This might be your local butcher, baker, p= lumbers or even
larg= er service provider which offers services that grow out of local
=
demand and which serve local n= eeds in more unique ways than the Global
Economy.=C2=A0 The third economy is the Subsistence ec= onomy where market
f= orces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional
capital to make it work.=C2= =A0 This is the world of the informal economy
with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives= that directly
contr= ibute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by
traditional statistics.=C2=A0 And wo= ven among these are both commercial and
commons models, which can operate with varying success = at the
different lev= els.=C2=A0=C2=A0

When viewed through th= is lens, it is easy to see how regulation has
only enabled the global economy in telecommunicat= ion and that there is
a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the
Local and Subsistence e= conomies.=C2=A0=C2=A0

For me this also = highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's
Access Gap model
<http://blogs.= worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and-universal-access>.=C2=A0It
is not so much that the= model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;
assuming that successful global capitalism is the = best of all possible
outcomes.
Writing more about this shor= tly.

Cheers... Steve


O= n Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org
<mailto:mallory@article19.org>> wrote:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hi Steve,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks for sharing. I read it la= st night and I really enjoyed it.. I
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0think the metaphor is solid economicall= y. And politically, well, that
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0could be another post in and of itself.

<= blockquote type=3D"cite"> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The agrarian commons woul= d of course be ideal, but what we have is a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sort of old-world economic struc= ture that politically controls and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0profits from (what should be) the common= s. This sets you up nicely to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0call for modern economic models ranging from s= quarely capitalist to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0socialist, and even (back to) the commons!
<= /blockquote>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'm CCing HRPC because it m= ight be of interest to those who have
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0raised
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0issues of centralisation on the = list in the past.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-M= allory

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0On 04/10/2018= 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
=
Hi all,

This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre
infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just a= bout
everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0
=
https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalis= m/

Curious to know how apt you f= eel the metaphor is or any other
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reactions
you may have.= =C2=A0

Thanks.... Steve Song<= br>

=

_______________________= ________________________
gaia mailing list
= gaia@irtf.org = <mailto:gaia@irtf.org= >
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


<= br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0--
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Mallo= ry Knodel
=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0Head of Digital :: article19.org <http://article19.org>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9= =C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0_______________________________________________
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia mailing lis= t
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0gaia@irtf.org <= ;mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">

=
--
+1 902 529 0046
stevesong@nsrc.org <mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org>
http://nsrc..org <http://nsrc.org>
=

________________________________= _______________
hrpc= mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/hrpc


--
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consulta= nt, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
= www.article19.= org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F= FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


____= ___________________________________________
gaia mailing li= st
gaia@= irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
___________________________________= ____________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


--
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Sun, 21 Oct 2018 14:43:22 +0000 Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 14:43:17 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Stephen Farrell , Vittorio Bertola , Fred Baker , Melinda Shore Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <1032104750.872351.1540132997897@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie> <1714484099.735553.1540077333774@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_872350_519616651.1540132997894" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12512 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/69.0.3497.100 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 14:43:26 -0000 ------=_Part_872350_519616651.1540132997894 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen, > ISTM that people expressing valid concerns about the use=C2=A0of Internet= services at the application layer that might=C2=A0impinge on human rights,= would be wise(r) to ensure they=C2=A0aren't being seen as attacking the me= chanisms we use to > improve the security and privacy properties of Internet=C2=A0protocols, b= ut would make more progress leveraging the real=C2=A0alignments they may ha= ve with the technical requirements of=C2=A0people who would like to improve= the privacy aspects of the > Internet as commonly used by us all. This is very interesting and a good point.=C2=A0 I am thinking about this.= =C2=A0 If you have a few moments in Bangkok, I would like to sit down and t= alk with you about this face to face.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I am always interested in= finding common ground.=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: Stephen Farrell To: Nalini J Elkins ; Vittorio Bertola <= vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>; Fred Baker ; = Melinda Shore =20 Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2018 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter= -00.txt =20 On 21/10/2018 00:15, Nalini J Elkins wrote: >> To be frank - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a >> real discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt to >> continue recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols like >> TLS. > As far as I am concerned, this is an entirely separate issue from the > recent attempt to provide much needed operational feedback from > industry to the TLS group.=C2=A0=20 Sure. (Not that I agree with that description of the debate:-) I do accept that you consider this a different issue but I'd ask you to consider whether it's wise to conflate the two, or to explicitly try ensure a clean separation between these two quite different discussions. > In fact, my co-authors may noteven know > what you are referring to as TLS has not come up even once in our > private discussions.=20 FWIW, I consider it normal that the dramatis personae change with each iteration of this debate. The arguments remain the same of course, as (so far) has the IETF's rough consensus on the topic. > I consider DNS over HTTPS to be an entirely > separate issue from TLS. It is entirely related if one is interested in inspection of protocol payload and metadata. >> troll farms being used at the application layer to influence >> discussions and what that might mean in terms of technical >> requirements to create accounts at services.) > That is a very good point.=C2=A0 Those should be put into the problem > description. Thanks, I think you're missing my point - sorry for not explaining it well, but I'll try again. ISTM that people expressing valid concerns about the use of Internet services at the application layer that might impinge on human rights, would be wise(r) to ensure they aren't being seen as attacking the mechanisms we use to improve the security and privacy properties of Internet protocols, but would make more progress leveraging the real alignments they may have with the technical requirements of people who would like to improve the privacy aspects of the Internet as commonly used by us all. S. >=20 > Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc.=20 > www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 >=20 > From: Stephen Farrell To: Vittorio > Bertola ; Fred Baker > ; Melinda Shore > Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Sent: Saturday, > October 20, 2018 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification > for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 20/10/2018 22:54, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >> At the same time, the IETF seems to churn out protocols (lastly=20 >> DNS-over-HTTPS) that make filtering harder or impossible at all, >> as if filtering did not exist or, if it existed, all of it were >> bad. > IMO the above is a fairly gross mis-characterisation of the IETF's > outputs and of the processes that lead to those outputs. >=20 > It'd also be unwise to try argue this topic on this list, as it's an > IETF topic (increasing use of confidentiality mechanisms) that has > been of considerable controversy every time it's been discussed over > the last 20 or so years. And it has been thoroughly discussed quite a > few times in the IETF. >=20 > To be frank - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a real > discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt to continue > recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols like TLS. If the > proponents here are really interested in HR issues, then I would > argue they'd be wiser to ensure that such confusion isn't likely. And > that's quite doable - just focus on HR issues that do not overlap > with weakening crypto - seems to me there are many of those ripe for > discussion that are nothing to do with crypto. (E.g. troll farms > being used at the application layer to influence discussions and what > that might mean in terms of technical requirements to create accounts > at services.) >=20 > S. _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20 > hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20 > hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc =20 ------=_Part_872350_519616651.1540132997894 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stephen,

> ISTM that people expressing valid conce= rns about the use of Internet services at the application layer that might impinge on human rights, would b= e wise(r) to ensure they aren't being seen as attacking the mechanisms we use to
> improve the security and privacy propertie= s of Internet pr= otocols, but would make more progress leveraging the real alignments they may have with the= technical requirements of people who would like to improve the privacy aspects of the
> Internet as commonly used by us al= l.

This is = very interesting and a good point.  I am thinking about this.  If= you have a few moments in Bangkok, I would like to sit down and talk with = you about this face to face.   I am always interested in finding = common ground.
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside= Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie&g= t;
To: Nalini J Elkins= <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>; Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.be= rtola@open-xchange.com>; Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>; Me= linda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net>
Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, = 2018 4:37 PM
Subject= : Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifil= ter-00.txt



On 21/10/2018 00:15, Nalini = J Elkins wrote:
>> To be frank - I find it hard to = separate out how much this is a
>> real discussion = of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt to
>>= ; continue recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols like
>> TLS.
> As far as I am concerned, t= his is an entirely separate issue from the
> recent at= tempt to provide much needed operational feedback from
&g= t; industry to the TLS group. 

S= ure. (Not that I agree with that description of the debate:-)
I do accept that you consider this a different issue but I'd
ask you to consider whether it's wise to conflate the two, or
to explicitly try ensure a clean separation between these tw= o
quite different discussions.

> In fact, my co-authors may noteven know
&= gt; what you are referring to as TLS has not come up even once in our
> private discussions.

FWIW, I consider it normal that the dramatis personae change
with each iteration of this debate. The arguments remain the
same of course, as (so far) has the IETF's rough consensus on
the topic.

> I consi= der DNS over HTTPS to be an entirely
> separate issue = from TLS.

It is entirely related if on= e is interested in inspection
of protocol payload and met= adata.

>> troll farms being used= at the application layer to influence
>> discussio= ns and what that might mean in terms of technical
>>= ; requirements to create accounts at services.)
> That= is a very good point.  Those should be put into the problem
> description. Thanks,

I = think you're missing my point - sorry for not explaining
= it well, but I'll try again.

ISTM that= people expressing valid concerns about the use
of Intern= et services at the application layer that might
impinge o= n human rights, would be wise(r) to ensure they
aren't be= ing seen as attacking the mechanisms we use to
improve th= e security and privacy properties of Internet
protocols, = but would make more progress leveraging the real
alignmen= ts they may have with the technical requirements of
peopl= e who would like to improve the privacy aspects of the
In= ternet as commonly used by us all.


S.

>
> Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside= Products, Inc.
> www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-83= 60
>
> From: Stephen Farrell <= ;stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> To: Vittor= io
> Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>; Fred Baker
> <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>= ; Melinda Shore
> <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Sent: = Saturday,
> October 20, 2018 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [hrp= c] New Version Notification
> for draft-elkins-hrpc-if= ilter-00.txt
>
>
>
> On 20/10/2018 22:54, Vittorio Bertola wrot= e:
>> At the same time, the IETF seems to churn out= protocols (lastly
>> DNS-over-HTTPS) that make fi= ltering harder or impossible at all,
>> as if filte= ring did not exist or, if it existed, all of it were
>= > bad.
> IMO the above is a fairly gross mis-charac= terisation of the IETF's
> outputs and of the processe= s that lead to those outputs.
>
>= ; It'd also be unwise to try argue this topic on this list, as it's an
> IETF topic (increasing use of confidentiality mechanisms= ) that has
> been of considerable controversy every ti= me it's been discussed over
> the last 20 or so years.= And it has been thoroughly discussed quite a
> few ti= mes in the IETF.
>
> To be frank= - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a real
> discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt to continue=
> recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols= like TLS. If the
> proponents here are really interes= ted in HR issues, then I would
> argue they'd be wiser= to ensure that such confusion isn't likely. And
> tha= t's quite doable - just focus on HR issues that do not overlap
> with weakening crypto - seems to me there are many of those ripe= for
> discussion that are nothing to do with crypto. = (E.g. troll farms
> being used at the application laye= r to influence discussions and what
> that might mean = in terms of technical requirements to create accounts
>= ; at services.)
>
> S. _________= ______________________________________ hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/hrpc
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list <= br clear=3D"none">> hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irt= f.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>
____________________________________= ___________
hrpc mailing list
hr= pc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman= /listinfo/hrpc


------=_Part_872350_519616651.1540132997894-- From nobody Sun Oct 21 08:22:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626E5130DC6 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:22:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=webfoundation.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0RsAJuoM7NzX for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com (mail-ed1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06D9C1200D7 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id w19-v6so35572175eds.1 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:22:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=webfoundation.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UVROTmLoEAtqoi6k9POwgdPymAz2ZM/POMbn7aQzxto=; b=ZarDx4a4f8tarHEoKpuLEJCb1dXYBFGLOKfirLOz9+0ZoXQTDPg69aaFUbV2Q1aefU sS2w80RnvrJ0onib42JrBpyMfkvrHOKwfj3XDu/I4La7H4wuriDGeWc4xTdsD2Ibcmpg +JCPCCD7V/jv2hIAnwEHPe5p2rGQzxgStq2I8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UVROTmLoEAtqoi6k9POwgdPymAz2ZM/POMbn7aQzxto=; b=stvxszqd2eL47578z112MQA/zk5EZLSZeP0Lb36Jg6O1JwG9LKkrjnpXq5o3hCpOuI LowT936WmvB1C8i48jOkSi/gVQja6oU1/WgiteHSHdEgbFlB9Yeq6JjtfF/n3gtyamfp ZNJ8fdc5N5uOB0RLgbn+syOG5hHXmphZoxUBx/2s+TeQDiYkYjk74UlBDvMqtxVjqzVB qTi7IMLXNxPFw4vPiVZEIitoBQWNZJ0Duq7x7uf6+edfExW/9XiWgIUB+qquXI2vxCrb zx7e92cFu3YBsHU9JU57+Knff983eQvrJ8DSgebKyNUf4RkGKlKxRsBh1hWCwE3hwaox ZEPA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfogfbtKGjA7WOgFZVbgJyjXUVBV5vtP2l0lfFLi4+qGlUn7WLgAb ofLnr3wtIB0de2JQ6/pfmVliTf934hqW6NIb7wk2Mg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62Lv0knnmDzZ0PSJpX+J4qMloNmzuJJFlYm2eG+angKDs4+2s2T5TUpQR5JeczlE88L4SvvH3Pz1K7+DDG2myI= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c517:: with SMTP id o23-v6mr10967196edq.73.1540135328131; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:22:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> In-Reply-To: From: Sonia Jorge Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 11:21:31 -0400 Message-ID: To: Steve Song Cc: gaia , hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000023bfde0578beb30b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 15:22:14 -0000 --00000000000023bfde0578beb30b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, Absolutely agree with that first point. That is precisely why, in regions and countries where A4AI works (e.g., the ECOWAS Universal Access Act and USF regulations in Mozambique), we have advocated and been successful in changing regulation so that regardless of who contributes to the USFs, these must and can be used to support investment activities of other providers, including rural operators, community networks and more. We continue to do this through our work across all region. On power, ownership and lack of effective competition, that remains an issue in many countries and one that we must continue to document, and where necessary advocate for policy change. Our Affordability Drivers Index scores countries on several competition related indicators. I invite you to explore the data next week once out! :) Best, Sonia Sonia Jorge Executive Director, Alliance for Affordable Internet Head of Digital Inclusion Program, Web Foundation a4ai.org Twitter: @A4A_internet +1-617-905-7819 (USA) PGP: 8B995609B48715A3 *World Wide Web Foundation | **1110 Vermont Ave NW, Suite 500, Washington DC 20005, USA | **www.webfoundation.org* * | Twitter: @webfoundation* On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:53 AM Steve Song wrote: > Hi Amelia, Sonia, > > I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be happy > to participate in a discussion on this. > > Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally > restricted to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out > infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again) to be a terrible > idea. I hope we can agree that we should stop doing that. For me the > issue is about power and control and the way it is used to impede > competition. The cost of technology has plummeted in both fibre and > wireless technologies. In theory that should have been a boon for > competition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along with > exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost impenetrable > barrier to market entry. Any government intervention in universal servic= e > should obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well as > ownership of and access to core networks. > > Cheers... Steve > > On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference >> call among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy= to >> join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and = the >> Access Model. >> >> Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may >> have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of >> infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be pro= ven >> wrong. >> >> Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have bee= n >> more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer >> and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the >> case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones= as >> well. So the level of economic development overall is a key variable. >> >> As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot >> here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced >> and that can add to the discussion. >> - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: >> https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 >> report will be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key >> questions relevant to this discussion, specially on costs associated wit= h >> infrastructure investment >> - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: >> https://a4ai..org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/ >> >> - For those interested in USFs in Africa, see >> https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource= -to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/ >> >> Best, >> Sonia Jorge >> Executive Director, A4AI >> Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation >> 1-617-905-7819 >> >> On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service >> Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have >> worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. >> Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces >> off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service >> provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship >> to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a >> communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets >> and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in >> various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar >> difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit >> theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information >> asymmetries? >> >> As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and >> C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also >> incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's >> fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a >> few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is >> fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the >> main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in >> the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile >> infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors >> have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where >> there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I >> misunderstanding something? >> >> best regards, >> >> Amelia >> >> >> >> On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: >> >> Hi Mallory, >> >> >> Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in terms >> >> of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of >> >> Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic >> >> historian, Fernand Braudel. Braudel argues that the world has three >> >> economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known >> >> capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in >> >> theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual >> >> suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the Local >> >> Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you >> >> live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even >> >> larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local >> >> demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global >> >> Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market >> >> forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional >> >> capital to make it work. This is the world of the informal economy >> >> with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly >> >> contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by >> >> traditional statistics. And woven among these are both commercial and >> >> commons models, which can operate with varying success at the >> >> different levels. >> >> >> When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has >> >> only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is >> >> a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the >> >> Local and Subsistence economies. >> >> >> For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's >> >> Access Gap model >> >> . I= t >> >> is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; >> >> assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible >> >> outcomes. >> >> >> Writing more about this shortly. >> >> >> Cheers... Steve >> >> >> >> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel > >> >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Steve, >> >> >> Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I >> >> think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that >> >> could be another post in and of itself. >> >> >> The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a >> >> sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and >> >> profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to >> >> call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to >> >> socialist, and even (back to) the commons! >> >> >> I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have >> >> raised >> >> issues of centralisation on the list in the past. >> >> >> -Mallory >> >> >> On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre >> >> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about >> >> everywhere). >> >> >> https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ >> >> >> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other >> >> reactions >> >> you may have. >> >> >> Thanks.... Steve Song >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> gaia mailing list >> >> gaia@irtf.org > >> >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Mallory Knodel >> >> Head of Digital :: article19.org >> >> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> gaia mailing list >> >> gaia@irtf.org > >> >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> +1 902 529 0046 >> >> stevesong@nsrc.org > >> >> http://nsrc..org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> hrpc mailing list >> >> hrpc@irtf.org >> >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> >> >> >> -- >> Amelia Andersdotter >> Technical Consultant, Digital Programme >> >> ARTICLE19 >> www.article19.org >> >> PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> > > > -- > +1 902 529 0046 > stevesong@nsrc.org > http://nsrc..org > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > --00000000000023bfde0578beb30b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve,

Absolutely agree with that first= point. That is precisely why, in regions and countries where A4AI works (e= .g., the ECOWAS Universal Access Act and USF regulations in Mozambique), we= have advocated and been successful in changing regulation so that regardle= ss of who contributes to the USFs, these must and can be used to support in= vestment activities of other providers, including rural operators, communit= y networks and more. We continue to do this through our work across all reg= ion.

On power, ownership and lack of effective com= petition, that remains an issue in many countries and one that we must cont= inue to document, and where necessary advocate for policy change. Our Affor= dability Drivers Index scores countries on several competition related indi= cators. I invite you to explore the data next week once out! :)
<= br>
Best,
Sonia

= Sonia Jorge
Executive Director,=C2=A0Alliance for Affordable Internet
Head of Digital Inclusion Program, Web Foundation
a4ai.org=C2= =A0Twitter: @A4A_internet
+1-617-905-7819=C2=A0(USA)
<= div>PGP: 8B995609B48715A3

World Wide Web Foundation |=C2=A01110 Vermon= t Ave NW, Suite 500, Washington DC 20005, USA |=C2=A0www.webfoundation.org= =C2=A0| Twitter: @webfoundation

<= br>
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:53= AM Steve Song <stevesong@nsrc.org= > wrote:
Hi= Amelia, Sonia,

I agree this is a very interesting and t= imely debate and I would be happy to participate in a discussion on this.= =C2=A0=C2=A0

Universal service funds that involve = (or in many cases are legally restricted to) giving money back to the incum= bents to build out infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again)= to be a terrible idea.=C2=A0 I hope we can agree that we should stop doing= that.=C2=A0 For me the issue is about power and control and the way it is = used to impede competition.=C2=A0 The cost of technology has plummeted in b= oth fibre and wireless technologies.=C2=A0 In theory that should have been = a boon for competition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along wi= th exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost impenetrable = barrier to market entry.=C2=A0 Any government intervention in universal ser= vice should obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well as = ownership of and access to core networks.

Cheers..= . Steve

On Sat, = 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org> wrote:<= br>
Hi All,

<= /div>
Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/con= ference call among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be = happy to join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blo= g and the Access Model.=C2=A0

Amelia, can you poin= t me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may have) that shows that re= lationship between USO and quality of infrastructure? I find that very diff= icult to believe but open to be proven wrong.=C2=A0

Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been= more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer a= nd behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the cas= e in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones as we= ll. So the level of economic development overall is a key variable.=C2=A0
As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot = here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced an= d that can add to the discussion.=C2=A0
- A4AI=E2=80=99s annual A= ffordability Report:=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/repor= t/2017/. Note that the 2018 report will be launched and published on Tu= esday and addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, specially on= costs associated with infrastructure investment
- a recent blog = on infrastructure costs and challenges:=C2=A0https://a4a= i..org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/
- For t= hose interested in USFs in Africa, see=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-acc= ess-funds-an-untapped-resource-to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/

Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive Director, A4AI
Head of Digital Incl= usion, Web Foundation
1-617-905-7819

On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org= > wrote:

H= i all,

It might be helpful to know that EU= countries where Universal Service
Obligations have been ex= tensively used and applied, also typically have
worse infra= structure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.
Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces<= /span>
off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. T= he service
provider has information advantage and typically= a better relationship
to its consumers than the government= has to its citizens (so a
communications advantage too). I= lack experience of the African markets
and their regulator= s, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in
vario= us European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar
<= span>difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit<= br>theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these informati= on
asymmetries?

As it is d= escribed by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also
incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market.= That's
fundamentally a good thing: it means not all th= e last-mile is owned by a
few big actors who need to be reg= ulated by a regulator who is
fundamentally at a disadvantag= e compared to the big actors. It's the
main criticism t= argetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in
the E= U as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile
infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors
have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, o= r where
there has been purposeful public investment in last= -mile). Or am I
misunderstanding something?

best regards,

Amelia



On 2018-10-= 04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:
Hi Ma= llory,

Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I think y= ou are on exactly the right track in terms
of thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks to E= rick Huerta of
Rhizo= matica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic
historian, Fernand Braudel.=C2=A0 = Braudel argues that the world has three
economies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which is the = well-known
capitalis= t economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in
theory for every player.=C2=A0 Googl= e, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual
suspects form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The second econo= my is the Local
Econ= omy where services are specific to the city/community where you
<= /blockquote>
live.=C2=A0 This might be your = local butcher, baker, plumbers or even
larger service provider which offers services that grow = out of local
demand = and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global
<= /blockquote>
Economy.=C2=A0 The third econom= y is the Subsistence economy where market
forces may not operate because there is not sufficien= t traditional
capita= l to make it work.=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal economy
with barters, cooperatives, = community initiatives that directly
contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasure= d by
traditional sta= tistics.=C2=A0 And woven among these are both commercial and
commons models, which can operate = with varying success at the
different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0

W= hen viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has
only enabled the global econ= omy in telecommunication and that there is
a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom i= nitiatives in the
Lo= cal and Subsistence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0

For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank= 9;s
Access Gap model=
<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and-universal-access= >.=C2=A0It
is= not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;
assuming that successful glob= al capitalism is the best of all possible
outcomes.

Writing= more about this shortly.
=
Cheers... Ste= ve


On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org
<mailto:mallory@article19.org<= /a>>> wrote:
<= /span>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0H= i Steve,

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks for = sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0think the metaphor= is solid economically. And politically, well, that
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0could be another post in= and of itself.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The = agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sort of old= -world economic structure that politically controls and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0profits from (what s= hould be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0call for modern economic m= odels ranging from squarely capitalist to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0socialist, and even (back to) the = commons!

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'm CCi= ng HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0raised
<= /blockquote>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0issues of ce= ntralisation on the list in the past.

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-Mallory

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
Hi all,
=
This is a reflection on the current state of terr= estrial fibre
infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but = I think applies just about
everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0

https://manypossibilities.net= /2018/10/fibre-feudalism/

Curiou= s to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reactio= ns
you may have.=C2=A0

Thanks.= ... Steve Song


_= ______________________________________________
gaia mail= ing list
gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
https://www.irtf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/gaia



= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0--
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Mallory Knodel
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Head of Digital :: article19.org <http://article19.org>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gpg fingerprint :: = E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0_______________________________________= ________
=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0gaia mailing list
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia@irtf.org <= mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



-- =
+1 902 529 0046
stevesong@nsrc.org <mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org><= /span>
http://nsrc..org <http://nsrc.org>


___________= ____________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irt= f.org
https://www.= irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

=
--
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6= CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/gaia
_____________= __________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


--
+1 902 529 0046
<= div>stevesong@nsrc.org

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
--00000000000023bfde0578beb30b-- From nobody Sun Oct 21 08:44:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 360511252B7 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:44:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ovkpx3VqgzOm for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 843A31277D2 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B20896A31A; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 17:44:25 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1540136665; bh=goopNg9NQZgdqz/W50Fm3dCRNvTH2Gy/2NkwPh3/IS0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=3m45hgJmm34nAQTJUj+6Zj0DAm8hGxVADpIajimQ1wsQE+I8XMLik+eSrEnBxZiqd 8Nzcp04JXTOvmoAJazKLLhUvDAHuxjtWcRC4+mIqK4CREGOqWhVWUF4oOBSjWB9xOE veIle7y4G7rQPc0UiB8r0qKsCcob2Zf+SVD+DYYc4rqRFA++Y/ljFfFIxzHXlDX1a1 HmG+Am/Cb+6AoI0z/MnVOJac3owpzV1Dj3hgRCmZ4z01IvwRoQc9rUL308cjh1ZCXL vfGICMbRgvld2pOv5385HaXd5L49flfw3awG4mnLNbYiC8Tu4q+T9Mik79NBdPlTPd kyS5n+wnrsCzw== Received: from null (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A55FA3C04D7; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 17:44:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 17:44:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Stephen Farrell , Fred Baker , Melinda Shore Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <1255848520.19204.1540136665602@appsuite.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie> References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_19203_7053325.1540136665595" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev18 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 15:44:31 -0000 ------=_Part_19203_7053325.1540136665595 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 21 ottobre 2018 alle 0.17 Stephen Farrell < stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > ha scritto: > > To be frank - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a > real discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt > to continue recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols > like TLS. If the proponents here are really interested in HR > issues, then I would argue they'd be wiser to ensure that such > confusion isn't likely. And that's quite doable - just focus on > HR issues that do not overlap with weakening crypto - seems to > me there are many of those ripe for discussion that are nothing > to do with crypto. (E.g. troll farms being used at the application > layer to influence discussions and what that might mean in terms > of technical requirements to create accounts at services.) > It seems you have really misunderstood my intentions (and, I think, those of the other authors as well). No one ever mentioned weakening cryptography or TLS - in fact, encrypting connections is such a good thing that I have been spending a significant chunk of my time for the last two years in meeting telcos around the globe and explaining them how to adopt DANE. Also, the company I work for is AFAIK the first major name server software maker adding DNS-over-HTTPS support in their application. The problem with DNS-over-HTTPS is rather that, as it is being deployed now, it is solving a privacy threat deriving from ISPs sniffing DNS queries in transit to profile individual users (something honestly unheard of, at least in Europe), and creating a much bigger privacy threat by allowing dominant OTTs to centralize DNS query data in their hands and possibly feed their well known user data monetization and pervasive monitoring systems. But this is not a problem with the encryption in the protocol, it is a problem of troubling and covert architectural mutations (turning DNS into an over-the-top application) and of lack of understanding and attention for how the DNS works today and what it is being used for, up to the point of breaking stuff that, as Fred put it, "is frequently a reason that Internet access actually works", to create more privacy threats than it solves. Yet if you go through the draft there is no consideration on how to mitigate this, no justification or responsibility taken for this, just a note on "yes this may break some security stuff", and no solution provided. Do you still wonder why so many DNS and security people are upset? The problem is that encryption is not a silver bullet for privacy, and once you deploy it, the real privacy risk lies at the endpoint of the connection; and that endpoint is also the only place available to exert some content control when necessary. The desirable (or undesirable) interactions between those endpoints and the existing use cases for content control should have been considered and addressed before releasing this stuff as a standard - and writing down those use cases is IMHO a way to start that long due discussion. Regards, -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_19203_7053325.1540136665595 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 21 ottobre 2018 alle 0.17 Stephen Farrell < stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> ha scritto:

To be frank - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a
real discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt
to continue recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols
like TLS. If the proponents here are really interested in HR
issues, then I would argue they'd be wiser to ensure that such
confusion isn't likely. And that's quite doable - just focus on
HR issues that do not overlap with weakening crypto - seems to
me there are many of those ripe for discussion that are nothing
to do with crypto. (E.g. troll farms being used at the application
layer to influence discussions and what that might mean in terms
of technical requirements to create accounts at services.)
It seems you have really misunderstood my intentions (and, I think, those of the other authors as well). No one ever mentioned weakening cryptography or TLS - in fact, encrypting connections is such a good thing that I have been spending a significant chunk of my time for the last two years in meeting telcos around the globe and explaining them how to adopt DANE. Also, the company I work for is AFAIK the first major name server software maker adding DNS-over-HTTPS support in their application.

The problem with DNS-over-HTTPS is rather that, as it is being deployed now, it is solving a privacy threat deriving from ISPs sniffing DNS queries in transit to profile individual users (something honestly unheard of, at least in Europe), and creating a much bigger privacy threat by allowing dominant OTTs to centralize DNS query data in their hands and possibly feed their well known user data monetization and pervasive monitoring systems.

But this is not a problem with the encryption in the protocol, it is a problem of troubling and covert architectural mutations (turning DNS into an over-the-top application) and of lack of understanding and attention for how the DNS works today and what it is being used for, up to the point of breaking stuff that, as Fred put it, "is frequently a reason that Internet access actually works", to create more privacy threats than it solves. Yet if you go through the draft there is no consideration on how to mitigate this, no justification or responsibility taken for this, just a note on "yes this may break some security stuff", and no solution provided. Do you still wonder why so many DNS and security people are upset?

The problem is that encryption is not a silver bullet for privacy, and once you deploy it, the real privacy risk lies at the endpoint of the connection; and that endpoint is also the only place available to exert some content control when necessary. The desirable (or undesirable) interactions between those endpoints and the existing use cases for content control should have been considered and addressed before releasing this stuff as a standard - and writing down those use cases is IMHO a way to start that long due discussion.

Regards,

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
------=_Part_19203_7053325.1540136665595-- From nobody Sun Oct 21 09:15:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D8C12D7EA for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 09:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4aLVskVKY11q for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 09:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D39BD129BBF for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 09:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id 22-v6so30362288oiz.2 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 09:15:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cSvexgJ50Qtkh9PSIPo6nUbwp2/66eTkBpZi7JmsYGo=; b=uUiXeg7RNPu3eRLvQUMArci30X0MqIcXSPBNMNDB/gpJYHBH0cY1X7H6m/xhDa6vz/ 50uciT6txwdLuGO018BKTbTfYq4xYPlBg/EjZCVAENHjWgznVaYWuEL0V/n0a0DcgyL4 f6i+dI0EzCYTBe9trz9pS+CIkRtd0Iv/u4fRIsLs47+CAzeCUH3BDV7talTtvGNxI3Hp M6LYa9395D9PD6JY+lYBtlDnWHzJw0NHtxxPTiVn3mO5+h2Po5jzZlQzIY/JcEPs3agT r+MDlQh0e73T4aEZI2xYeCOpBkkgPI7wS+VwkUXHpG6N4Wq0piUc+a/JI3Lyfq7dWEHn afOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cSvexgJ50Qtkh9PSIPo6nUbwp2/66eTkBpZi7JmsYGo=; b=lOcFoR9isGsaua8tlvA2IcKMvIVue1Obg48u+h9sCxfhx4+xPachVOErmcvqDwoweH RVUtzMQa0x5OS4K+GwMhhfU/hFCnFta0b0ehebz7JwV2OW5Egt3s9l3jvWoKB9GYyIfZ ABqADYVxFDVNOXg6wJMtyykDZ+lj5A88juKau0h9ayidpiLuH2bYklWrqFyQF3vliwYY faOJvCd65rdNxR2+/GVnzcnD/KMGb/iKfHQjn0A+X0U3wXprh9BQjLrZt2w4BHg1ctUO iwC7gsE28ZbREqK2E82q0IQjURWHczEiTmiaGwR9pxZZER4eHL9IHIRLNqaO24cnllrc SmBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoiaNuRHKfJZS9ABIypQ6CpDaEyfOw7oHLKJTcNnU5zHbbiNtC8s qCWAWTsT8+vTAS905zp4wCU1uGAin830cJ6B8vSIxA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV61jOK/D8i6rVnNH9PojNbX4nrNuE9Qe/W0B+j6peI7qG1SXRWiQZIUxxWhWWD2f6iw1g1yRYml+C8f8O2H+/dE= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d15:: with SMTP id 21-v6mr23090172oin.179.1540138544905; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 09:15:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> In-Reply-To: From: Vint Cerf Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 12:15:32 -0400 Message-ID: To: Steve Song Cc: gaia , hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e04fbb0578bf7241" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 16:15:48 -0000 --000000000000e04fbb0578bf7241 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve is spot on. V On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song wrote: > Hi Amelia, Sonia, > > I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be happy > to participate in a discussion on this. > > Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally > restricted to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out > infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again) to be a terrible > idea. I hope we can agree that we should stop doing that. For me the > issue is about power and control and the way it is used to impede > competition. The cost of technology has plummeted in both fibre and > wireless technologies. In theory that should have been a boon for > competition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along with > exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost impenetrable > barrier to market entry. Any government intervention in universal servic= e > should obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well as > ownership of and access to core networks. > > Cheers... Steve > > On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference >> call among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy= to >> join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and = the >> Access Model. >> >> Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may >> have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of >> infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be pro= ven >> wrong. >> >> Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have bee= n >> more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer >> and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the >> case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones= as >> well. So the level of economic development overall is a key variable. >> >> As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot >> here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced >> and that can add to the discussion. >> - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: >> https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 >> report will be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key >> questions relevant to this discussion, specially on costs associated wit= h >> infrastructure investment >> - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: >> https://a4ai..org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/ >> >> - For those interested in USFs in Africa, see >> https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource= -to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/ >> >> Best, >> Sonia Jorge >> Executive Director, A4AI >> Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation >> 1-617-905-7819 >> >> On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service >> Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have >> worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. >> Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces >> off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service >> provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship >> to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a >> communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets >> and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in >> various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar >> difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit >> theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information >> asymmetries? >> >> As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and >> C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also >> incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's >> fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a >> few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is >> fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the >> main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in >> the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile >> infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors >> have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where >> there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I >> misunderstanding something? >> >> best regards, >> >> Amelia >> >> >> >> On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: >> >> Hi Mallory, >> >> >> Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in terms >> >> of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of >> >> Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic >> >> historian, Fernand Braudel. Braudel argues that the world has three >> >> economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known >> >> capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in >> >> theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual >> >> suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the Local >> >> Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you >> >> live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even >> >> larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local >> >> demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global >> >> Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market >> >> forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional >> >> capital to make it work. This is the world of the informal economy >> >> with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly >> >> contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by >> >> traditional statistics. And woven among these are both commercial and >> >> commons models, which can operate with varying success at the >> >> different levels. >> >> >> When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has >> >> only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is >> >> a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the >> >> Local and Subsistence economies. >> >> >> For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's >> >> Access Gap model >> >> . I= t >> >> is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; >> >> assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible >> >> outcomes. >> >> >> Writing more about this shortly. >> >> >> Cheers... Steve >> >> >> >> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel > >> >> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Steve, >> >> >> Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I >> >> think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that >> >> could be another post in and of itself. >> >> >> The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a >> >> sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and >> >> profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to >> >> call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to >> >> socialist, and even (back to) the commons! >> >> >> I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have >> >> raised >> >> issues of centralisation on the list in the past. >> >> >> -Mallory >> >> >> On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre >> >> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about >> >> everywhere). >> >> >> https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ >> >> >> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other >> >> reactions >> >> you may have. >> >> >> Thanks.... Steve Song >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> gaia mailing list >> >> gaia@irtf.org > >> >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Mallory Knodel >> >> Head of Digital :: article19.org >> >> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> gaia mailing list >> >> gaia@irtf.org > >> >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> +1 902 529 0046 >> >> stevesong@nsrc.org > >> >> http://nsrc..org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> hrpc mailing list >> >> hrpc@irtf.org >> >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> >> >> >> -- >> Amelia Andersdotter >> Technical Consultant, Digital Programme >> >> ARTICLE19 >> www.article19.org >> >> PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> > > > -- > +1 902 529 0046 > stevesong@nsrc.org > http://nsrc..org > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > --000000000000e04fbb0578bf7241 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve is spot on.
V

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve So= ng <stevesong@nsrc.org> wro= te:
Hi Amelia, Son= ia,

I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate= and I would be happy to participate in a discussion on this.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Universal service funds that involve (or in many ca= ses are legally restricted to) giving money back to the incumbents to build= out infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again) to be a terri= ble idea.=C2=A0 I hope we can agree that we should stop doing that.=C2=A0 F= or me the issue is about power and control and the way it is used to impede= competition.=C2=A0 The cost of technology has plummeted in both fibre and = wireless technologies.=C2=A0 In theory that should have been a boon for com= petition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along with exclusive c= ontrol of fibre backbones has created an almost impenetrable barrier to mar= ket entry.=C2=A0 Any government intervention in universal service should ob= liged to address the issue of market permeability as well as ownership of a= nd access to core networks.

Cheers... Steve
<= /div>
On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at= 07:07, Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org> wr= ote:
Hi All,
=
Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webina= r/conference call among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I woul= d be happy to join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with you= r blog and the Access Model.=C2=A0

Amelia, can you= point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may have) that shows th= at relationship between USO and quality of infrastructure? I find that very= difficult to believe but open to be proven wrong.=C2=A0

Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have= been more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poo= rer and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly th= e case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones = as well. So the level of economic development overall is a key variable.=C2= =A0

As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a= lot here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produc= ed and that can add to the discussion.=C2=A0
- A4AI=E2=80=99s ann= ual Affordability Report:=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/af= fordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 report will be laun= ched and published on Tuesday and addresses key questions relevant to this = discussion, specially on costs associated with infrastructure investment
- a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges:=C2=A0https://a4ai..org/affordable-internet-acces= s-the-cost-challenge/

Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive Director, A4AI
Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Fo= undation
1-617-905-7819
On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org= > wrote:

Hi all,

It might be helpful to know tha= t EU countries where Universal Service
Obligations have bee= n extensively used and applied, also typically have
worse i= nfrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it fa= ces
off with the service provider under USO in a negotiatio= n. The service
provider has information advantage and typic= ally a better relationship
to its consumers than the govern= ment has to its citizens (so a
communications advantage too= ). I lack experience of the African markets
and their regul= ators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in
v= arious European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar<= br>difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these infor= mation
asymmetries?

As it = is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B andC all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also<= /span>
incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure mar= ket. That's
fundamentally a good thing: it means not al= l the last-mile is owned by a
few big actors who need to be= regulated by a regulator who is
fundamentally at a disadva= ntage compared to the big actors. It's the
main critici= sm targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in
t= he EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile
= infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actor= s
have had regulatory incentives to build their own network= s, or where
there has been purposeful public investment in = last-mile). Or am I
misunderstanding something?
<= span>
best regards,

Amelia=



On 2018= -10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:
H= i Mallory,
Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I thi= nk you are on exactly the right track in terms
of thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks = to Erick Huerta of
R= hizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic
=
historian, Fernand Braudel.=C2= =A0 Braudel argues that the world has three
economies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which is = the well-known
capit= alist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in
theory for every player.=C2=A0 G= oogle, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual
suspects form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The second e= conomy is the Local
= Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you<= br>
live.=C2=A0 This might be y= our local butcher, baker, plumbers or even
larger service provider which offers services that g= row out of local
dem= and and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global<= br>
Economy.=C2=A0 The third ec= onomy is the Subsistence economy where market
forces may not operate because there is not suffi= cient traditional
ca= pital to make it work.=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal economy
with barters, cooperativ= es, community initiatives that directly
contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmea= sured by
traditional= statistics.=C2=A0 And woven among these are both commercial and
=
commons models, which can oper= ate with varying success at the
different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0

When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has
only enabled the global = economy in telecommunication and that there is
a need for enabling regulations to nurture telec= om initiatives in the
Local and Subsistence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0

For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Ban= k's
Access Gap m= odel
<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-mod= el-and-universal-access>.=C2=A0It
is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one= -dimensional;
assumi= ng that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible
=
outcomes.

Writing more about this shortly.

Cheers... Steve
=

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mal= lory Knodel <mallory@article19.org
<mailto:mallory@article19.org>> wr= ote:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hi Steve,

<= blockquote type=3D"cite"> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks for sharing. I rea= d it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0think the metaphor is solid econ= omically. And politically, well, that
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0could be another post in and of itself= .

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The agrarian commo= ns would of course be ideal, but what we have is a
<= blockquote type=3D"cite"> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sort of old-world economi= c structure that politically controls and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0profits from (what should be) the = commons. This sets you up nicely to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0call for modern economic models ranging = from squarely capitalist to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0socialist, and even (back to) the commons!

<= blockquote type=3D"cite"> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'm CCing HRPC becaus= e it might be of interest to those who have
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0raised
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0issues of centralisation o= n the list in the past.

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0-Mallory

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0On 04= /10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
Hi all,

This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fi= bre
infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think ap= plies just about
everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= span>
https://manypossibili= ties.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">

Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other
<= /blockquote>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0reactions
you may have.=C2=A0
=

Thanks.... Steve Song


=
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org&= gt;
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listin= fo/gaia
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0--
=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0Mallory Knodel
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Head of Digital :: article19.org <http://article19.org<= /a>>
=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 B= D3C C780

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0___________= ____________________________________
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia mailing list
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gai= a@irtf.org>
= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/ga= ia



<= span>--
+1 902 529 = 0046
stevesong@nsrc.= org <mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org>
http://nsrc..org <http://nsrc.org>


__= _____________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrp= c


--
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Dig= ital Programme

ARTICLE19
<= a href=3D"http://www.article19.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ww= w.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B9= 88 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55

_______________________________________________
gai= a mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@= irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia<= br>

--
<= /div>
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@= irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia<= br> --000000000000e04fbb0578bf7241-- From nobody Sun Oct 21 10:29:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F279312D4ED; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 10:29:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id siJU4STD1yOt; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 10:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roura.ac.upc.es (roura.ac.upc.edu [147.83.33.10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E161277BB; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 10:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from correu-2.ac.upc.es (correu-2.ac.upc.es [147.83.30.92]) by roura.ac.upc.es (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w9LHSui8031929; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 19:28:56 +0200 Received: from leandro.home (unknown [93.176.136.204]) by correu-2.ac.upc.es (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AC948128; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 19:28:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Leandro Navarro Message-Id: <6FE759E5-477D-488A-A7A3-D5241544AFF8@ac.upc.edu> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ABB90EDC-065C-45F7-8FBF-B5C80F121F72" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.0 \(3445.100.39\)) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 19:28:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Steve Song , gaia , hrpc@irtf.org To: Vint Cerf References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.100.39) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 17:29:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ABB90EDC-065C-45F7-8FBF-B5C80F121F72 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country policy) goes in the = opposite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form of subsidy or = tax deduction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal monopoly. = The typical government argument is that USO is paid by industry, that = reflects this privilege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the = incumbent only (everyone pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). = In consequence, the incumbent does the minimum required to justify = receiving the funds to preserve the pool of unconnected as a source of = future USO income (the serfs of the feudal system). For example, one fibre community network but can be any alternative = operator to the incumbent, fears the effect of that: = https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadban= d-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html = That=E2=80=99s why USO as implemented can be counter effective. = Alternative models of distribution, radically different, are needed, = where all the funds are not given to a single operator (and deter = investment by others), but to every citizen that qualifies (to free the = serfs). Bottom-up (people centred) instead of top-down (incumbent = centred). Something along those lines may contribute to increase = alternatives and not just be used to mainly reinforce the de-facto = monopoly of largest operators (for example: = https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/ = ) Otherwise USO policies are = mainly a form of public subsidy, a form of monopoly, to reinforce the = incumbent, with the excuse of the underserved and unconnected. Leandro. > On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf = wrote: >=20 > Steve is spot on. > V >=20 > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song > wrote: > Hi Amelia, Sonia, >=20 > I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be = happy to participate in a discussion on this. =20 >=20 > Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally = restricted to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out = infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again) to be a = terrible idea. I hope we can agree that we should stop doing that. For = me the issue is about power and control and the way it is used to impede = competition. The cost of technology has plummeted in both fibre and = wireless technologies. In theory that should have been a boon for = competition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along with = exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost impenetrable = barrier to market entry. Any government intervention in universal = service should obliged to address the issue of market permeability as = well as ownership of and access to core networks. >=20 > Cheers... Steve >=20 > On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge = > = wrote: > Hi All, >=20 > Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a = webinar/conference call among interested people? Steve, what do you = think? I would be happy to join a stimulating discussion on the topic, = starting with your blog and the Access Model.=20 >=20 > Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may = have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of = infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be = proven wrong.=20 >=20 > Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have = been more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been = poorer and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is = certainly the case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern = European ones as well. So the level of economic development overall is a = key variable.=20 >=20 > As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot = here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced = and that can add to the discussion.=20 > - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: = https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/ = . Note that the 2018 = report will be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key = questions relevant to this discussion, specially on costs associated = with infrastructure investment > - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: = https://a4ai..org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/ = > - For those interested in USFs in Africa, see = https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource-t= o-close-the-gender-digital-divide/ = >=20 > Best, > Sonia Jorge > Executive Director, A4AI > Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation > 1-617-905-7819 >=20 > On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter > wrote: >=20 >> Hi all, >>=20 >> It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service >> Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically = have >> worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. >> Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it = faces >> off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service >> provider has information advantage and typically a better = relationship >> to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a >> communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African = markets >> and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced = in >> various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar >> difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit >> theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information >> asymmetries? >>=20 >> As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B = and >> C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also >> incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. = That's >> fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned = by a >> few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is >> fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the >> main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in >> the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile >> infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different = actors >> have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where >> there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I >> misunderstanding something? >>=20 >> best regards, >>=20 >> Amelia >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: >>> Hi Mallory, >>>=20 >>> Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in = terms >>> of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of >>> Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic >>> historian, Fernand Braudel. Braudel argues that the world has three >>> economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known >>> capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in >>> theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual >>> suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the Local >>> Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you >>> live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even >>> larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local >>> demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the = Global >>> Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market >>> forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional >>> capital to make it work. This is the world of the informal economy >>> with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly >>> contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by >>> traditional statistics. And woven among these are both commercial = and >>> commons models, which can operate with varying success at the >>> different levels. =20 >>>=20 >>> When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has >>> only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there = is >>> a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in = the >>> Local and Subsistence economies. =20 >>>=20 >>> For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World = Bank's >>> Access Gap model >>> >. = It >>> is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; >>> assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all = possible >>> outcomes. >>>=20 >>> Writing more about this shortly. >>>=20 >>> Cheers... Steve >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel >>> >> = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Steve, >>>=20 >>> Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed = it.. I >>> think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, = that >>> could be another post in and of itself.. >>>=20 >>> The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have = is a >>> sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls = and >>> profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up = nicely to >>> call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist = to >>> socialist, and even (back to) the commons! >>>=20 >>> I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have >>> raised >>> issues of centralisation on the list in the past. >>>=20 >>> -Mallory >>>=20 >>> On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>>=20 >>>> This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre >>>> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just = about >>>> everywhere). =20 >>>>=20 >>>> https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ = >>>>=20 >>>> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other >>> reactions >>>> you may have.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks.... Steve Song >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org > >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia = >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Mallory Knodel >>> Head of Digital :: article19.org = > >>> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C = C780 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gaia mailing list >>> gaia@irtf.org > >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia = >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> +1 902 529 0046 >>> stevesong@nsrc.org = > >>> http://nsrc..org > >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc = >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Amelia Andersdotter >> Technical Consultant, Digital Programme >>=20 >> ARTICLE19 >> www.article19.org >>=20 >> PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia = > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia = >=20 >=20 > --=20 > +1 902 529 0046 > stevesong@nsrc.org > http://nsrc..org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia = > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia -- Leandro Navarro http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro http://dsg.ac.upc.edu --Apple-Mail=_ABB90EDC-065C-45F7-8FBF-B5C80F121F72 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country policy) = goes in the opposite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form of = subsidy or tax deduction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal = monopoly. The typical government argument is that USO is paid by = industry, that reflects this privilege or new form of monopoly/subsidy = in favour of the incumbent only (everyone pays the king operator in the = feudal metaphor). In consequence, the incumbent does the minimum = required to justify receiving the funds to preserve the pool of = unconnected as a source of future USO income (the serfs of the feudal = system).

For example, one = fibre community network but can be any alternative operator to the = incumbent, fears the effect of that: https://www.ispreview.co= .uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadband-uso-may-hamper-rural-f= tth-rollout.html

That=E2=80=99s why USO as = implemented can be counter effective. Alternative models of = distribution, radically different, are needed, where all the funds are = not given to a single operator (and deter investment by others), but = to every citizen that qualifies (to free the serfs). Bottom-up (people centred) instead of top-down (incumbent = centred). Something along those lines may contribute to increase alternatives and not just be used to mainly reinforce the de-facto = monopoly of largest operators (for example: https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/ ) Otherwise = USO policies are mainly a form of public subsidy, a form of monopoly, to = reinforce the incumbent, with the excuse of the underserved and = unconnected.

Leandro.

On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint = Cerf <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Steve is spot on.
V

On = Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song <stevesong@nsrc.org> = wrote:
Hi Amelia, = Sonia,

I agree this = is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be happy to = participate in a discussion on this.  

Universal service funds that involve = (or in many cases are legally restricted to) giving money back to the = incumbents to build out infrastructure has proven (over and over and = over again) to be a terrible idea.  I hope we can agree that we = should stop doing that.  For me the issue is about power and = control and the way it is used to impede competition.  The cost of = technology has plummeted in both fibre and wireless technologies.  = In theory that should have been a boon for competition but high spectrum = auction fees and licenses along with exclusive control of fibre = backbones has created an almost impenetrable barrier to market = entry.  Any government intervention in universal service should = obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well as ownership = of and access to core networks.

Cheers... Steve

On = Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org> = wrote:
Hi All,

Interesting discussion = here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference call among interested = people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy to join a stimulating = discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and the Access = Model. 

Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper = (anything you may have) that shows that relationship between USO and = quality of infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but = open to be proven wrong. 

Something important to keep in mind is = that countries where USO have been more instrumental are also countries = that have traditionally been poorer and behind in terms of = infrastructure development; this is certainly the case in some Southern = European countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well. So the level = of economic development overall is a key variable. 
As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could = share a lot here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports = we produced and that can add to the discussion. 
- A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note = that the 2018 report will be launched and published on Tuesday and = addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, specially on costs = associated with infrastructure investment
- a = recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: https://a4ai..org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge= /
- For those interested in USFs in Africa, = see https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-untapped= -resource-to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/
Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive = Director, A4AI
Head of = Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation
1-617-905-7819
On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org> wrote:

Hi all,

It might be helpful to = know that EU countries where Universal Service
Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also = typically have
worse = infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well = applied.
Applying USO means you = put the government in a position where it faces
off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. = The service
provider has = information advantage and typically a better relationship
to its consumers than the government has to = its citizens (so a
communications = advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets
and their regulators, but in broad strokes = those are the issues faced in
various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming = similar
difficulties would arise = in the African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these = information
asymmetries?

As it = is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B = and
C all collaborate as soon as = they own physical fibre networks) also
incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure = market. That's
fundamentally a = good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a
few big actors who need to be regulated by a = regulator who is
fundamentally at = a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the
main criticism targetting the Local Loop = Unbundling reform of 1999 in
the = EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile
infrastructure (except in those EU markets = where many different actors
have = had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or = where
there has been purposeful = public investment in last-mile). Or am I
misunderstanding something?

best = regards,

Amelia



On 2018-10-04 20:52, = Steve Song wrote:
Hi Mallory,

Thanks for that!  I think you are on = exactly the right track in terms
of thinking about economic models.  Thanks to Erick = Huerta of
Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the = thinking of French economic
historian, Fernand = Braudel.  Braudel argues that the world has three
economies not one.  A global economy which is the = well-known
capitalist economic model where monopoly is = the perfect end-game in
theory for every player.  = Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual
suspects form part of this economy.  The second economy = is the Local
Economy where services are specific to the = city/community where you
live.  This might be your = local butcher, baker, plumbers or even
larger service provider which offers services that grow out = of local
demand and which serve local needs in more = unique ways than the Global
Economy.  The third = economy is the Subsistence economy where market
forces may not operate because there is not sufficient = traditional
capital to make it work.  This is the = world of the informal economy
with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that = directly
contribute to the overall economy but are = largely unmeasured by
traditional statistics.  = And woven among these are both commercial and
commons models, which can operate with varying success at = the
different levels.  

When viewed through this lens, it is easy to = see how regulation has
only enabled the global = economy in telecommunication and that there is
a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom = initiatives in the
Local and Subsistence = economies.  

For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the = World Bank's
Access Gap model
<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and-universal-ac= cess>. It
is not so much that the model = is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;
assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all = possible
outcomes.

Writing more about this shortly.

Cheers... Steve


On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, = Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org
<mailto:mallory@article19.org>> = wrote:

   Hi = Steve,

   Thanks for = sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I
   think the metaphor is solid economically. = And politically, well, that
   could be = another post in and of itself..

   The agrarian commons = would of course be ideal, but what we have is a
   sort of old-world economic structure that = politically controls and
   profits = from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to
   call for modern economic models ranging = from squarely capitalist to
   socialist, = and even (back to) the commons!

   I'm CCing HRPC because it = might be of interest to those who have
   raised
   issues of centralisation on the list in = the past.

=    -Mallory

   On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song = wrote:
Hi = all,

This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial = fibre
infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies = just about
everywhere).  

https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/

Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any = other
=    reactions
you may have. 

Thanks.... Steve Song


_______________________________________________
gaia = mailing list
gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



   --
   Mallory Knodel
   Head of Digital :: article19.org <http://article19.org>
   gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 = BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

=    _______________________________________________
   gaia mailing list
   gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
   https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



--
+1 902 529 0046
stevesong@nsrc.org <mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org>
http://nsrc..org <http://nsrc.org>


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 = B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
________________________________= _______________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


--
+1 902 529 = 0046
stevesong@nsrc.org
http://nsrc..org

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
_______________________________________________
gaia = mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

--
Leandro Navarro
http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro =  http://dsg.ac.upc.edu

= --Apple-Mail=_ABB90EDC-065C-45F7-8FBF-B5C80F121F72-- From nobody Sun Oct 21 15:00:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5919F130EA1 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 15:00:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Justm2oK5hAN for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 14:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4D09130EA0 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 14:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gELlM-0007iz-TS for hrpc@irtf.org; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:59:57 +0200 X-Blue-Identity: !l=129&o=0&pl=19&po=0&qs=PREFIX&f=HTML&n=Niels%20ten%20Oever&e=mail%40nielstenoever.net&p=0&q=NONE X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true User-Agent: Android MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----EM0PYRW7YISFQ9H2LXX8SBLLUA8P8B" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Niels ten Oever Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:58:34 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <779f4411-f668-4bb7-83bc-b3d9b217838a@nielstenoever.net> X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 523f42b60907f92a5b98f162865e3e4b Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] From dignity to security protocols: a scientometric analysis of digital ethics X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 22:00:03 -0000 ------EM0PYRW7YISFQ9H2LXX8SBLLUA8P8B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 This article might be of interest: https://link=2Espringer=2Ecom/article/1= 0=2E1007/s10676-018-9457-5 ------EM0PYRW7YISFQ9H2LXX8SBLLUA8P8B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This article might be of interest:

------EM0PYRW7YISFQ9H2LXX8SBLLUA8P8B-- From nobody Sun Oct 21 16:31:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D2F130DF2 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 16:31:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=BidTWlC9; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=ZaCTxKAS Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NMHw5SIQL3tt for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 16:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF6A9130DF1 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 16:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40D5BD3E8 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:31:29 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1540164689; bh=c/scXn8bW6qHHsStxywpIMmNM0BV59rZLs0aXKlPr+o=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=BidTWlC9gtrqmnr5NMDu1H1mIO8ioVShWrt4haV2vmAFmW4ElSqWHjQLTL/gB9N73 bmnpPiyzEN8SLfdniZMUD6pclRvmG4UmkmUCmyX6HiNlIDbw3welBIc5XT87qVtjQ8 9ucgMYdV8F7PDzdazN8hTcZvWVIx/ppPdRSBgloo= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g800mUk_vLkd for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:31:28 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 01:31:26 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1540164688; bh=c/scXn8bW6qHHsStxywpIMmNM0BV59rZLs0aXKlPr+o=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=ZaCTxKASTlWlh9JHV0vxE+T4OOs0GvkE6Kn1k6wFh/2+Hga4NSZ4VfPqqWLugbo6L JNAncUPS+zUwB4wY2lYCl+5GOo5qhy29ox0YjuumYog/hizeFEUaoWNjgVpM73p5Ar naZNJ5UBpwNsDGsoEGSmyTbWaXRgc/XZfYYZHlB4= From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20181021233126.ttqegyh7bkce7l47@mx4.yitter.info> References: <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> <5e17bafc-92e0-d9ef-4471-b19bb5f46f6b@cisco.com> <20181021083513.vpxth2a7va2aw3yi@mx4.yitter.info> <793c778b-cac9-1a08-dbac-21915a573624@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <793c778b-cac9-1a08-dbac-21915a573624@cisco.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt) X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:31:33 -0000 On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 11:14:27AM +0200, Eliot Lear wrote: > community: do we as a community (if that is what we are) subscribe to a > single ethics system, and if not, can we reconcile the differences > between such systems in our code?  Is adherence to a single ethics > system required as part of our standardization efforts, and what are the > ramifications either way?  Might someone form an alternative > Nihilist-Network Engineering Task Force ;-)? That was part of the point of the argument I was making the first time around. You don't actually need to have a common framework for the ethics to undertake the technology. If you are a relativist, you might think that all of these frames are morally equivalent. If you think human rights as defined by the UDHR are morally primary, you might be more concerned with that stance (and might wish to include a "human rights considerations" section). But there is more than one way to describe this stance, and I was arguing at the time that treating protocols as _necessarily_ political was itself a frame-choosing stance (and therefore itself possibly political in a way that some stances would not accept). Kantians, for instance, don't accept moral relativism. But that's not going to convince the moral relativist that Kantians are correct in their universal and rationalist stance. > The reason I revived this earlier point is because it is fundamental to > blocking and filtering, as to whether we have one Internet or more than > one Internet, and it is a question that is squarely in view, given Eric > Schmidt's comments in September, and a New York Times Editorial this > past week. I'm not sure I agree. On blocking and filtering and the "multinet" world, there's more than one way to describe it. One is the stance "this is fragmenting the Internet". But I actually think it's different, and that Schmidt's piece is just basically wrong. In one version of what he's describing, there a world with the Internet, and a new and much larger AOL on the side. The ChinAOL he is describing is a centrally-contolled and permission-goverened walled garden that sometimes (when it is convenient) connects to resources on the Internet. The Internet remains the relatively open network of networks that we already have. There is nothing new about this model: only the size of the population behind the wall is different. The human rights-centric description of this is that this is a bad political choice with negative consequences for the population behind the restrictions. This puts us squarely into the world of arguing that our political stance (free expression) is better. I am dubious about the prospects for success there. The "networking ethic"-centric description of this is that the walled garden approach is a bad network choice, because it harms the ability of the network to increase connectivity. Incidentally, as a necessary consequence, it deprives those inside the more-restrictive network of the potential of potentially innovative opportunities in the less-restrictive network, thereby in theory harming the opportunities available to those inside the more-restrictive system. This might be a viable choice for a restrictor power who has a mostly-homogenous domestic market of more than 1 billion consumers with ready disposable income. Whether this is a viable path for other restrictor powers is not clear to me, but it seems at least open to doubt. So there might be follow-on policy consequences for this "networking ethic"-centric description, but the actual moral value of those choices does not immediately become a political argument in which netowrk-loving people need to argue in political terms against the values of some nation-states. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Sun Oct 21 22:59:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD3D130E03; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 22:58:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gs8NGaCc6_NE; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 22:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CC86130E01; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 22:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id v69-v6so31261353oif.1; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 22:58:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oespIy+3umAPGWbXaZua6UvTwZOB7AcbEu1RyK3C/VE=; b=U8rtb/HF3SsG9syDNmGZdwZnpxM28IIWfvMmHtsW86AogGOI1gOS3wLcnhqX+aOx1A mV8fIEtTk2O3inmekVpfeaRseX6f2DBSKJDs1/b+vs8YKnZgL3C70kRRXhrioO1f90Ei YBAohz1yDzR/5+Wdhd/iCnvhfTOVE18CbnR+XcE5ShlShk2K1NW+hkre9TzODWPuL70p LTf2lIjZNsMv4v5Xl9BUZOFKq+S2kc925NMgJtppjrHjWkPX3fnOVkkTHc0EUmdmXXSQ CKO7KsLvTMGEVke3WWcR9Wtp9WIjAkCT3v4E5p+yYfkwKbT14PSu4LxTLY7fD2nUlSU+ ubSA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oespIy+3umAPGWbXaZua6UvTwZOB7AcbEu1RyK3C/VE=; b=AY5MXliHBOfarZv7+zK6Ea+0HEGfHry5nNZQLpdzEhAAcyuLNHGP6U7ay26woUn6rt jt9IvPqAHjNBQ6i42xuNsigfyXHFKTxApuFhN03c6vxDys5lGsDkO7NlOydrRWfueloZ PwTzhVwb+xhWkwPZHnjQTsEGj+9j5xBXkhYtr09WLncSFkB7ngdIovt9N8jMG7M4Evwr ac5f3qQRudUbUXBA0roUEAYWOGe3aNlfIY/EW1FAN4EDd/ZAXF+9qKkBQrCn7iEpQRHs MMfAzhSGQLcic/yPbsrZvrIrZHE9xWG1HctFOvoUjkexPoPnFnyAfnU/oV7cjgYmS+lQ JN4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohnbWAxtL+btFQc0pFlb+XoWdBYL8fZcStzMGac2Kov11oh1/5R /r3kwsj8r2ZZ5a2nEcQ53f7nW0kub5HBpW5R2PA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63x7yP0PYT9f2Esy92A5IcraPmJ+9syrZYUt0e5Xwmt7sDYBiJii7mvuKVuk4hZcwB7nw8O6WQWRPAWCGTxX6Y= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d05c:: with SMTP id h89-v6mr22560057oig.199.1540187889600; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 22:58:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> <6FE759E5-477D-488A-A7A3-D5241544AFF8@ac.upc.edu> In-Reply-To: <6FE759E5-477D-488A-A7A3-D5241544AFF8@ac.upc.edu> From: Carlos Rey-Moreno Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 07:57:56 +0200 Message-ID: To: Leandro Navarro Cc: vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org, gaia , Steve Song , hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000c0f820578caf0c5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 05:58:16 -0000 --0000000000000c0f820578caf0c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, interesting debate indeed, and happy to join a further call on this, or even work in a document where we can consolidate these discussions. After having engaged with several regulators, and managers/officials from universal access agencies in Africa this year, my main take away is that they keep on using USO to incentivize incumbents to go to rural areas because that's the only way they know. Once they are presented with alternative models like the ones mentioned by Leandro, they are very open, in principle, to explore them. They are the ones who know how ineffective the current models are, but in most cases they are, as Steve points out, constrained by frameworks that only allow to use the fund to those who contribute to it. I think, at least in Africa, there is a very interesting opportunity to work together with USAF managers/officials to discuss an potentially implement innovative ways of using them. Consolidating the knowledge in this discussion and others in a working document, with the different advocates in the region speaking proposing the same thing, could contribute a lot in this direction. best, carlos On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 19:29, Leandro Navarro wrote: > Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country policy) goes in the > opposite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form of subsidy or ta= x > deduction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal monopoly. The > typical government argument is that USO is paid by industry, that reflect= s > this privilege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the incumbent > only (everyone pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). In > consequence, the incumbent does the minimum required to justify receiving > the funds to preserve the pool of unconnected as a source of future USO > income (the serfs of the feudal system). > > For example, one fibre community network but can be any alternative > operator to the incumbent, fears the effect of that: > https://www.ispreview.co..uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadb= and-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html > > > That=E2=80=99s why USO as implemented can be counter effective. Alternati= ve models > of distribution, radically different, are needed, where all the funds are > not given to a single operator (and deter investment by others), but to > every citizen that qualifies (to free the serfs). Bottom-up (people > centred) instead of top-down (incumbent centred). Something along those > lines may contribute to increase alternatives and not just be used to > mainly reinforce the de-facto monopoly of largest operators (for example: > https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/ ) Otherwise USO policies are > mainly a form of public subsidy, a form of monopoly, to reinforce the > incumbent, with the excuse of the underserved and unconnected. > Leandro. > > On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf > wrote: > > Steve is spot on. > V > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song wrote: > >> Hi Amelia, Sonia, >> >> I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be happ= y >> to participate in a discussion on this. >> >> Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally >> restricted to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out >> infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again) to be a terribl= e >> idea. I hope we can agree that we should stop doing that. For me the >> issue is about power and control and the way it is used to impede >> competition. The cost of technology has plummeted in both fibre and >> wireless technologies. In theory that should have been a boon for >> competition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along with >> exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost impenetrable >> barrier to market entry. Any government intervention in universal servi= ce >> should obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well as >> ownership of and access to core networks. >> >> Cheers... Steve >> >> On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conferenc= e >>> call among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happ= y to >>> join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and= the >>> Access Model. >>> >>> Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may >>> have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of >>> infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be pr= oven >>> wrong. >>> >>> Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have >>> been more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been >>> poorer and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certa= inly >>> the case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European >>> ones as well. So the level of economic development overall is a key >>> variable. >>> >>> As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot >>> here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produce= d >>> and that can add to the discussion. >>> - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: >>> https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 >>> report will be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key >>> questions relevant to this discussion, specially on costs associated wi= th >>> infrastructure investment >>> - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: >>> https://a4ai..org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/ >>> >>> - For those interested in USFs in Africa, see >>> https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resourc= e-to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/ >>> >>> Best, >>> Sonia Jorge >>> Executive Director, A4AI >>> Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation >>> 1-617-905-7819 >>> >>> On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service >>> Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have >>> worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. >>> Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces >>> off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service >>> provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship >>> to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a >>> communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets >>> and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced i= n >>> various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar >>> difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit >>> theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information >>> asymmetries? >>> >>> As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and >>> C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also >>> incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's >>> fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by = a >>> few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is >>> fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the >>> main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in >>> the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile >>> infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors >>> have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where >>> there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I >>> misunderstanding something? >>> >>> best regards, >>> >>> Amelia >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: >>> >>> Hi Mallory, >>> >>> >>> Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in terms >>> >>> of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of >>> >>> Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic >>> >>> historian, Fernand Braudel. Braudel argues that the world has three >>> >>> economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known >>> >>> capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in >>> >>> theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual >>> >>> suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the Local >>> >>> Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you >>> >>> live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even >>> >>> larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local >>> >>> demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global >>> >>> Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market >>> >>> forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional >>> >>> capital to make it work. This is the world of the informal economy >>> >>> with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly >>> >>> contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by >>> >>> traditional statistics. And woven among these are both commercial and >>> >>> commons models, which can operate with varying success at the >>> >>> different levels. >>> >>> >>> When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has >>> >>> only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is >>> >>> a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the >>> >>> Local and Subsistence economies. >>> >>> >>> For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's >>> >>> Access Gap model >>> >>> >> >. It >>> >>> is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; >>> >>> assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible >>> >>> outcomes. >>> >>> >>> Writing more about this shortly. >>> >>> >>> Cheers... Steve >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel >> >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Steve, >>> >>> >>> Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I >>> >>> think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, tha= t >>> >>> could be another post in and of itself.. >>> >>> >>> The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a >>> >>> sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and >>> >>> profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely t= o >>> >>> call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to >>> >>> socialist, and even (back to) the commons! >>> >>> >>> I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have >>> >>> raised >>> >>> issues of centralisation on the list in the past. >>> >>> >>> -Mallory >>> >>> >>> On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre >>> >>> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about >>> >>> everywhere). >>> >>> >>> https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ >>> >>> >>> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other >>> >>> reactions >>> >>> you may have. >>> >>> >>> Thanks.... Steve Song >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> gaia mailing list >>> >>> gaia@irtf.org > >>> >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Mallory Knodel >>> >>> Head of Digital :: article19.org >>> >>> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C78= 0 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> gaia mailing list >>> >>> gaia@irtf.org > >>> >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> +1 902 529 0046 >>> >>> stevesong@nsrc.org > >>> >>> http://nsrc..org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> hrpc mailing list >>> >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Amelia Andersdotter >>> Technical Consultant, Digital Programme >>> >>> ARTICLE19 >>> www.article19.org >>> >>> PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gaia mailing list >>> gaia@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gaia mailing list >>> gaia@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>> >> >> >> -- >> +1 902 529 0046 >> stevesong@nsrc.org >> http://nsrc..org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > -- > Leandro Navarro > http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro http://dsg.ac.upc.edu > > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > --=20 Carlos Rey-Moreno, PhD "Community and Local Access Networks" Project Coordinator Association for Progressive Communications https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connec= t-themselves Cel: +27 (0) 76 986 3633 Skype: carlos.reymoreno Twitter: Creym --0000000000000c0f820578caf0c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all, interesting debate indeed, and happy to join = a further call on this, or even work in a document where we can consolidate= these discussions.

After having engaged with= several regulators, and managers/officials from universal access agencies = in Africa this year, my main take away is that they keep on using USO to in= centivize incumbents to go to rural areas because that's the only way t= hey know. Once they are presented with alternative models like the ones men= tioned by Leandro, they are very open, in principle, to explore them. They = are the ones who know how ineffective the current models are, but in most c= ases they are, as Steve points out, constrained by frameworks that only all= ow to use the fund to those who contribute to it.

=
I think, at least in Africa, there is a very interesting opportunity t= o work together with USAF managers/officials to discuss an potentially impl= ement innovative ways of using them. Consolidating the knowledge in this di= scussion and others in a working document, with the different advocates in = the region speaking proposing the same thing, could contribute a lot in thi= s direction.

best,

c= arlos

On Sun= , 21 Oct 2018 at 19:29, Leandro Navarro <leandro@ac.upc.edu> wrote:
Agre= ed, but the sad thing is that practice (country policy) goes in the opposit= e way in the few cases I know where USO is a form of subsidy or tax deducti= on to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal monopoly. The typical gove= rnment argument is that USO is paid by industry, that reflects this privile= ge or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the incumbent only (everyon= e pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). In consequence, the incum= bent does the minimum required to justify receiving the funds to preserve t= he pool of unconnected as a source of future USO income (the serfs of the f= eudal system).

For example, one fibre community network but can= be any alternative operator to the incumbent, fears the effect of that:=C2=A0https://w= ww.ispreview.co..uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadband-uso-may= -hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html

That=E2=80=99s why USO as impleme= nted can be counter effective. Alternative models of distribution, radicall= y different, are needed, where all the funds are not given to a single operator (and deter investment by others), but to e= very citizen that qualifies (to free the serfs). Bottom-up (people centred) instead of top-down (incumbent centred). S= omething along those lines may contribute to increase alternatives and not just be used to mainly reinforce the de-facto mo= nopoly of largest operators (for example:=C2=A0https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/g= bvs/=C2=A0) Otherwise USO policies are mainly a form of public subsidy,= a form of monopoly, to reinforce the incumbent, with the excuse of the und= erserved and unconnected.

Leandro.

On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf <vint=3D40google.com@dma= rc.ietf.org> wrote:

Steve is spot on.
V

On Sun, Oct = 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song <stevesong@nsrc.org> wrote:
Hi Amelia, Sonia,

I agree th= is is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be happy to particip= ate in a discussion on this.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Universal= service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally restricted to) gi= ving money back to the incumbents to build out infrastructure has proven (o= ver and over and over again) to be a terrible idea.=C2=A0 I hope we can agr= ee that we should stop doing that.=C2=A0 For me the issue is about power an= d control and the way it is used to impede competition.=C2=A0 The cost of t= echnology has plummeted in both fibre and wireless technologies.=C2=A0 In t= heory that should have been a boon for competition but high spectrum auctio= n fees and licenses along with exclusive control of fibre backbones has cre= ated an almost impenetrable barrier to market entry.=C2=A0 Any government i= ntervention in universal service should obliged to address the issue of mar= ket permeability as well as ownership of and access to core networks.
=

Cheers... Steve

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org> wrote:
Hi All,

Interesting disc= ussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference call among interes= ted people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy to join a stimulatin= g discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and the Access Model.=C2= =A0

Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a= paper (anything you may have) that shows that relationship between USO and= quality of infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open = to be proven wrong.=C2=A0

Something important to k= eep in mind is that countries where USO have been more instrumental are als= o countries that have traditionally been poorer and behind in terms of infr= astructure development; this is certainly the case in some Southern Europea= n countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well. So the level of econom= ic development overall is a key variable.=C2=A0

As for Africa and/or= infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here, but for now let me c= all your attention to some reports we produced and that can add to the disc= ussion.=C2=A0
- A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report:=C2=A0= https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/= . Note that the 2018 report will be launched and published on Tuesday a= nd addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, specially on costs = associated with infrastructure investment
- a recent blog on infr= astructure costs and challenges:=C2=A0https://a4ai..org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/
=

Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive Director, A4AI
Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation<= /span>
1-617-905-7819

On Oct = 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org> = wrote:

Hi all= ,

It might be helpful to know that EU coun= tries where Universal Service
Obligations have been extensi= vely used and applied, also typically have
worse infrastruc= ture than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.
A= pplying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces
off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The se= rvice
provider has information advantage and typically a be= tter relationship
to its consumers than the government has = to its citizens (so a
communications advantage too). I lack= experience of the African markets
and their regulators, bu= t in broad strokes those are the issues faced in
various Eu= ropean jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar
= difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information
asymmetries?

As it is descri= bed by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
C = all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) alsoincentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That= 's
fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the las= t-mile is owned by a
few big actors who need to be regulate= d by a regulator who is
fundamentally at a disadvantage com= pared to the big actors. It's the
main criticism target= ting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in
the EU as = well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile
inf= rastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors<= br>have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or whe= re
there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile= ). Or am I
misunderstanding something?

best regards,

Amelia


On 2018-10-04 20= :52, Steve Song wrote:
Hi Mallory= ,

Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I think you ar= e on exactly the right track in terms
of thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks to Erick = Huerta of
Rhizomatic= a, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic
historian, Fernand Braudel.=C2=A0 Braud= el argues that the world has three
economies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which is the well= -known
capitalist ec= onomic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in
theory for every player.=C2=A0 Google, C= olgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual
suspects form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The second economy i= s the Local
Economy = where services are specific to the city/community where you
live.=C2=A0 This might be your loca= l butcher, baker, plumbers or even
larger service provider which offers services that grow out= of local
demand and= which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global
Economy.=C2=A0 The third economy i= s the Subsistence economy where market
forces may not operate because there is not sufficient t= raditional
capital t= o make it work.=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal economy
<= /blockquote>
with barters, cooperatives, com= munity initiatives that directly
contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured b= y
traditional statis= tics.=C2=A0 And woven among these are both commercial and
commons models, which can operate wit= h varying success at the
<= span>different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Whe= n viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has
=
only enabled the global econom= y in telecommunication and that there is
a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom ini= tiatives in the
Loca= l and Subsistence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0

For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank'= s
Access Gap model
<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and= -universal-access>.=C2=A0It
is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dime= nsional;
assuming th= at successful global capitalism is the best of all possible
outcomes.

Writing more about this shortly.

<= span>Cheers... Steve


On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory = Knodel <mallory@article19.org
<mailto:mallory@article19.org>> wrote:<= /span>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hi Steve,
=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks for sharing. I read it = last night and I really enjoyed it.. I
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0think the metaphor is solid economica= lly. And politically, well, that
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0could be another post in and of itself..

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The agrarian commons w= ould of course be ideal, but what we have is a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sort of old-world economic st= ructure that politically controls and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0profits from (what should be) the comm= ons. This sets you up nicely to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0call for modern economic models ranging from= squarely capitalist to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0socialist, and even (back to) the commons!

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'm CCing HRPC because it= might be of interest to those who have
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0raised
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0issues of centralisation on th= e list in the past.
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= -Mallory

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0On 04/10/20= 18 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
Hi all,

= This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre=
infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just= about
everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= /blockquote>

https://manypossibilities.net/= 2018/10/fibre-feudalism/

Curious= to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0reaction= s
you may have.=C2=A0

Thanks..= .. Steve Song


__= _____________________________________________
gaia maili= ng list
gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org><= br>
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia=



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-- =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Mallory Knodel
=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Head of Digital :: article19.org <http://article19.org>= ;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C7= 80

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0_________________= ______________________________
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia mailing list
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf= .org>
=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia=



-= -
+1 902 529 0046
stevesong@nsrc.org <mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org>
http://nsrc..org <http://nsrc.org>
=


______= _________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


-- =
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital= Programme

ARTICLE19
www.a= rticle19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 = 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


<= span>_______________________________________________
gaia m= ailing list
gaia@irtf.org
h= ttps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
=
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@= irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia<= br>


--
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@= irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia<= br>
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://= www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


--
Car= los Rey-Moreno, PhD
"Community and Local Access Networks= " Project Coordinator
Association for Progressive Communicationshttps://www.apc.org/en/project= /local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connect-themselves
Cel: +27 (0) 76 986 3633
Skype: carlos.reymoreno=C2=A0Twitt= er: Creym
=
--0000000000000c0f820578caf0c5-- From nobody Sun Oct 21 23:45:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8878130DF4; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:45:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.washington.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kOxu9BbILyof; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x333.google.com (mail-ot1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 348EE130DC4; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x333.google.com with SMTP id 14so34931730oth.2; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:44:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.washington.edu; s=goo201206; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LLNRf9+KO3PVj3e+a9e+Jb/v4v5JCUovpL8vnDr0Wco=; b=Pu4F9ORtySRTXIBLpgudvwkidcFVoslOQg3r7I6epG4THzGRPmav1dmCFQRu642cyN Hv0JvPVJDRCAzSkKW9XptZI2vB8UX3ElEtzrFxpVVVVsmFm5iPrtMMOhsC+4kBUokBMn agLb59ivk4jwwTdwR/CMt6FuXcupp3ppeRaSo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LLNRf9+KO3PVj3e+a9e+Jb/v4v5JCUovpL8vnDr0Wco=; b=friBFSyxvFysXc8fStSAhCXBRuTfsP9qZ/LrX+KXnIVrsRauGlKQ3fqNWwtXb+cuh9 Z1WEMiYCxPoWiE2h/UrrBEeLlVQK6nQSzwSJtPqZz53+wQ2ybwsVDb1b4LsZ6qh/rYRu mJTnv3GGcoakIcX1EwL9rXBmrKgwNB2vTdQ0GstWOGXV/ZjXg2OLmRkKrGfDJZcHX3zf ViSe5gaJIrSlZu+aW1OVJusl8xndPy84hLaoxY9O0CBEryVlK2U3rjqCOHZBFBmnFAqY 2CGMsd4qga5TIuY3ry8z+UUyD+duazlOah07ME7HE+TNGkK3lLidhv6MiFawHScvkBmT s4ow== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoh0r8S8UFRBedZSp7G6jDT6PIQBt3y1A91uak4T5r3Qly9QOnx6 ruYMM3kpQKHeHMlk9x+GjRdEApIFr1kALfpuArE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63qg9jZWPKJbweZXPekZ6jNJeZgyA1UKIyLQQ00jFFE9KrTOV+s7b7WlTUu2TOg0kiRo8MUF/u5ZL6120MNadM= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:3dc9:: with SMTP id l67mr26601066otc.209.1540190696238; Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:44:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2e2991e8-e44b-d90f-5411-9e2c2fadddba@article19.org> <770B9455-BAC5-4131-A871-0678B949F61D@webfoundation.org> <6FE759E5-477D-488A-A7A3-D5241544AFF8@ac.upc.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Kurtis Heimerl Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:44:15 -0700 Message-ID: To: Carlos Rey-Moreno Cc: Leandro Navarro , gaia , vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org, Steve Song , hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000055f43d0578cb978c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 06:45:01 -0000 --00000000000055f43d0578cb978c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I thought it worth noting that some of my experiences have been different than Carlos's; for example in an unnamed central asian country the regulator mentioned that the USF distribution is set in policy and they must, by law, return the money to the telecoms. Even in those with the ability to put the money elsewhere, there were occasionally structures that push the regulator to fund "related" but non-competitive services like computer or internet literacy. Tricky space with a lot of moving pieces. On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:58 PM Carlos Rey-Moreno < carlos.reymoreno@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, interesting debate indeed, and happy to join a further call on > this, or even work in a document where we can consolidate these > discussions. > > After having engaged with several regulators, and managers/officials from > universal access agencies in Africa this year, my main take away is that > they keep on using USO to incentivize incumbents to go to rural areas > because that's the only way they know. Once they are presented with > alternative models like the ones mentioned by Leandro, they are very open= , > in principle, to explore them. They are the ones who know how ineffective > the current models are, but in most cases they are, as Steve points out, > constrained by frameworks that only allow to use the fund to those who > contribute to it. > > I think, at least in Africa, there is a very interesting opportunity to > work together with USAF managers/officials to discuss an potentially > implement innovative ways of using them. Consolidating the knowledge in > this discussion and others in a working document, with the different > advocates in the region speaking proposing the same thing, could contribu= te > a lot in this direction. > > best, > > carlos > > On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 19:29, Leandro Navarro wrote: > >> Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country policy) goes in the >> opposite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form of subsidy or t= ax >> deduction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal monopoly. The >> typical government argument is that USO is paid by industry, that reflec= ts >> this privilege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the incumben= t >> only (everyone pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). In >> consequence, the incumbent does the minimum required to justify receivin= g >> the funds to preserve the pool of unconnected as a source of future USO >> income (the serfs of the feudal system). >> >> For example, one fibre community network but can be any alternative >> operator to the incumbent, fears the effect of that: >> https://www.ispreview.co..uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broad= band-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html >> >> >> That=E2=80=99s why USO as implemented can be counter effective. Alternat= ive >> models of distribution, radically different, are needed, where all the >> funds are not given to a single operator (and deter investment by others= ), >> but to every citizen that qualifies (to free the serfs). Bottom-up (peop= le >> centred) instead of top-down (incumbent centred). Something along those >> lines may contribute to increase alternatives and not just be used to >> mainly reinforce the de-facto monopoly of largest operators (for example= : >> https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/ ) Otherwise USO policies are >> mainly a form of public subsidy, a form of monopoly, to reinforce the >> incumbent, with the excuse of the underserved and unconnected. >> Leandro. >> >> On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf >> wrote: >> >> Steve is spot on. >> V >> >> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song wrote: >> >>> Hi Amelia, Sonia, >>> >>> I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be >>> happy to participate in a discussion on this. >>> >>> Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally >>> restricted to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out >>> infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again) to be a terrib= le >>> idea. I hope we can agree that we should stop doing that. For me the >>> issue is about power and control and the way it is used to impede >>> competition. The cost of technology has plummeted in both fibre and >>> wireless technologies. In theory that should have been a boon for >>> competition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along with >>> exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost impenetrable >>> barrier to market entry. Any government intervention in universal serv= ice >>> should obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well as >>> ownership of and access to core networks. >>> >>> Cheers... Steve >>> >>> On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a >>>> webinar/conference call among interested people? Steve, what do you th= ink? >>>> I would be happy to join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starti= ng >>>> with your blog and the Access Model. >>>> >>>> Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may >>>> have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of >>>> infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be p= roven >>>> wrong. >>>> >>>> Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have >>>> been more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been >>>> poorer and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is cert= ainly >>>> the case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern Europea= n >>>> ones as well. So the level of economic development overall is a key >>>> variable. >>>> >>>> As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot >>>> here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produc= ed >>>> and that can add to the discussion. >>>> - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: >>>> https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 >>>> report will be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key >>>> questions relevant to this discussion, specially on costs associated w= ith >>>> infrastructure investment >>>> - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: >>>> https://a4ai..org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/ >>>> >>>> - For those interested in USFs in Africa, see >>>> https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resour= ce-to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/ >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Sonia Jorge >>>> Executive Director, A4AI >>>> Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation >>>> 1-617-905-7819 >>>> >>>> On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service >>>> Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically hav= e >>>> worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. >>>> Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces >>>> off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service >>>> provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship >>>> to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a >>>> communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African market= s >>>> and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced = in >>>> various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar >>>> difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit >>>> theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information >>>> asymmetries? >>>> >>>> As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B an= d >>>> C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also >>>> incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's >>>> fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by= a >>>> few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is >>>> fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the >>>> main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in >>>> the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile >>>> infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors >>>> have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where >>>> there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I >>>> misunderstanding something? >>>> >>>> best regards, >>>> >>>> Amelia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Mallory, >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in terms >>>> >>>> of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of >>>> >>>> Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic >>>> >>>> historian, Fernand Braudel. Braudel argues that the world has three >>>> >>>> economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known >>>> >>>> capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in >>>> >>>> theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual >>>> >>>> suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the Local >>>> >>>> Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you >>>> >>>> live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even >>>> >>>> larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local >>>> >>>> demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global >>>> >>>> Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market >>>> >>>> forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional >>>> >>>> capital to make it work. This is the world of the informal economy >>>> >>>> with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly >>>> >>>> contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by >>>> >>>> traditional statistics. And woven among these are both commercial and >>>> >>>> commons models, which can operate with varying success at the >>>> >>>> different levels. >>>> >>>> >>>> When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has >>>> >>>> only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is >>>> >>>> a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the >>>> >>>> Local and Subsistence economies. >>>> >>>> >>>> For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's >>>> >>>> Access Gap model >>>> >>>> >>> >. It >>>> >>>> is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; >>>> >>>> assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible >>>> >>>> outcomes. >>>> >>>> >>>> Writing more about this shortly. >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers... Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel >>> >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Steve, >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. = I >>>> >>>> think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, th= at >>>> >>>> could be another post in and of itself.. >>>> >>>> >>>> The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is = a >>>> >>>> sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and >>>> >>>> profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely = to >>>> >>>> call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to >>>> >>>> socialist, and even (back to) the commons! >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have >>>> >>>> raised >>>> >>>> issues of centralisation on the list in the past. >>>> >>>> >>>> -Mallory >>>> >>>> >>>> On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre >>>> >>>> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about >>>> >>>> everywhere). >>>> >>>> >>>> https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other >>>> >>>> reactions >>>> >>>> you may have. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks..... Steve Song >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> >>>> gaia@irtf.org > >>>> >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Mallory Knodel >>>> >>>> Head of Digital :: article19.org >>>> >>>> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C7= 80 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> >>>> gaia@irtf.org > >>>> >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> +1 902 529 0046 >>>> >>>> stevesong@nsrc.org > >>>> >>>> http://nsrc..org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> hrpc mailing list >>>> >>>> hrpc@irtf.org >>>> >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Amelia Andersdotter >>>> Technical Consultant, Digital Programme >>>> >>>> ARTICLE19 >>>> www.article19.org >>>> >>>> PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> gaia mailing list >>>> gaia@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> +1 902 529 0046 >>> stevesong@nsrc.org >>> http://nsrc..org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gaia mailing list >>> gaia@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> -- >> Leandro Navarro >> http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro http://dsg.ac.upc.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> > > > -- > Carlos Rey-Moreno, PhD > "Community and Local Access Networks" Project Coordinator > Association for Progressive Communications > > https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-conn= ect-themselves > Cel: +27 (0) 76 986 3633 > Skype: carlos.reymoreno Twitter: Creym > _______________________________________________ > gaia mailing list > gaia@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > --=20 Public Key: https://flowcrypt.com/pub/kheimerl@cs.washington.edu --00000000000055f43d0578cb978c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I thought it worth noting that some of my experiences= have been different than Carlos's; for example in an unnamed central a= sian country the regulator mentioned that the USF distribution is set in po= licy and they must, by law, return the money to the telecoms. Even in those= with the ability to put the money elsewhere, there were occasionally struc= tures that push the regulator to fund "related" but non-competiti= ve services like computer or internet literacy. Tricky space with a lot of = moving pieces.=C2=A0

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:58 PM Carlos Rey-Moreno <carlos.reymoreno@gmail= .com> wrote:
Hi all, interesting debate indeed, and happy to join a further call = on this, or even work in a document where we can consolidate these discussi= ons.

After having engaged with several regula= tors, and managers/officials from universal access agencies in Africa this = year, my main take away is that they keep on using USO to incentivize incum= bents to go to rural areas because that's the only way they know. Once = they are presented with alternative models like the ones mentioned by Leand= ro, they are very open, in principle, to explore them. They are the ones wh= o know how ineffective the current models are, but in most cases they are, = as Steve points out, constrained by frameworks that only allow to use the f= und to those who contribute to it.

I think, a= t least in Africa, there is a very interesting opportunity to work together= with USAF managers/officials to discuss an potentially implement innovativ= e ways of using them. Consolidating the knowledge in this discussion and ot= hers in a working document, with the different advocates in the region spea= king proposing the same thing, could contribute a lot in this direction.

best,

carlos
=

On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 a= t 19:29, Leandro Navarro <leandro@ac.upc.edu> wrote:
Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country policy) goes in the op= posite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form of subsidy or tax de= duction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal monopoly. The typical= government argument is that USO is paid by industry, that reflects this pr= ivilege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the incumbent only (ev= eryone pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). In consequence, the = incumbent does the minimum required to justify receiving the funds to prese= rve the pool of unconnected as a source of future USO income (the serfs of = the feudal system).

For example, one fibre community network bu= t can be any alternative operator to the incumbent, fears the effect of that:=C2=A0https://www.ispreview.co..uk/index.php/20= 17/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadband-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html<= /a>

That=E2=80=99s why USO as implemented can be counter effective. A= lternative models of distribution, radically different, are needed, where a= ll the funds are not given to a single operator (and deter investment by others), but to e= very citizen that qualifies (to free the serfs). Bottom-up (people centred) instead of top-down (incumbent centred). S= omething along those lines may contribute to increase alternatives and not just be used to mainly reinforce the de-facto mo= nopoly of largest operators (for example:=C2=A0https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/g= bvs/=C2=A0) Otherwise USO policies are mainly a form of public subsidy,= a form of monopoly, to reinforce the incumbent, with the excuse of the und= erserved and unconnected.

Leandro.

On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf <vint=3D40google.com@dma= rc.ietf.org> wrote:

Steve is spot on.
V

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song <<= a href=3D"mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org" target=3D"_blank">stevesong@nsrc.org> wrote:
Hi A= melia, Sonia,

I agree this is a very interesting and tim= ely debate and I would be happy to participate in a discussion on this.=C2= =A0=C2=A0

Universal service funds that involve (or= in many cases are legally restricted to) giving money back to the incumben= ts to build out infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again) to= be a terrible idea.=C2=A0 I hope we can agree that we should stop doing th= at.=C2=A0 For me the issue is about power and control and the way it is use= d to impede competition.=C2=A0 The cost of technology has plummeted in both= fibre and wireless technologies.=C2=A0 In theory that should have been a b= oon for competition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along with = exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost impenetrable bar= rier to market entry.=C2=A0 Any government intervention in universal servic= e should obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well as own= ership of and access to core networks.

Cheers... S= teve

On Sat, 20 = Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org= > wrote:
H= i All,

Interesting discussion here. One that might warra= nt a webinar/conference call among interested people? Steve, what do you th= ink? I would be happy to join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starti= ng with your blog and the Access Model.=C2=A0

Amel= ia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may have) th= at shows that relationship between USO and quality of infrastructure? I fin= d that very difficult to believe but open to be proven wrong.=C2=A0

Something important to keep in mind is that countries whe= re USO have been more instrumental are also countries that have traditional= ly been poorer and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is c= ertainly the case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern Eur= opean ones as well. So the level of economic development overall is a key v= ariable.=C2=A0

As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I co= uld share a lot here, but for now let me call your attention to some report= s we produced and that can add to the discussion.=C2=A0
- A4AI=E2= =80=99s annual Affordability Report:=C2=A0https://= a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 report w= ill be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key questions releva= nt to this discussion, specially on costs associated with infrastructure in= vestment
- a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges:= =C2=A0https://a4ai..org/affordable-in= ternet-access-the-cost-challenge/
- For those interested in U= SFs in Africa, see=C2=A0https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-ac= cess-funds-an-untapped-resource-to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/

Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive Director, A4AI
Head of Digital Inclusion, We= b Foundation
1-617-905-7819

On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19= .org> wrote:

Hi all,

It might be helpful to know= that EU countries where Universal Service
Obligations have= been extensively used and applied, also typically have
wor= se infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.
Applying USO means you put the government in a position where i= t faces
off with the service provider under USO in a negoti= ation. The service
provider has information advantage and t= ypically a better relationship
to its consumers than the go= vernment has to its citizens (so a
communications advantage= too). I lack experience of the African markets
and their r= egulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in
various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar
difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit=
theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these i= nformation
asymmetries?

As= it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) a= lso
incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure= market. That's
fundamentally a good thing: it means no= t all the last-mile is owned by a
few big actors who need t= o be regulated by a regulator who is
fundamentally at a dis= advantage compared to the big actors. It's the
main cri= ticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in
the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile=
infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different a= ctors
have had regulatory incentives to build their own net= works, or where
there has been purposeful public investment= in last-mile). Or am I
misunderstanding something?<= br>
best regards,

Am= elia



On = 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:
Hi Mallory,

Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I= think you are on exactly the right track in terms
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">of thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Tha= nks to Erick Huerta of
Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic=
historian, Fernand Braudel= .=C2=A0 Braudel argues that the world has three
economies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which= is the well-known
c= apitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in
theory for every player.=C2= =A0 Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual
suspects form part of this economy.=C2=A0 The sec= ond economy is the Local
<= span>Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you
live.=C2=A0 This might= be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even
larger service provider which offers services t= hat grow out of local
demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global
Economy.=C2=A0 The thi= rd economy is the Subsistence economy where market
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">forces may not operate because there is not = sufficient traditional
capital to make it work.=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal economy=
with barters, coope= ratives, community initiatives that directly
contribute to the overall economy but are largely = unmeasured by
tradit= ional statistics.=C2=A0 And woven among these are both commercial and
commons models, which can= operate with varying success at the
different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0

When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has=
only enabled the gl= obal economy in telecommunication and that there is
=
a need for enabling regulations to nurture = telecom initiatives in the
Local and Subsistence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=

For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the Worl= d Bank's
Access = Gap model
<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gap= s-model-and-universal-access>.=C2=A0It
is not so much that the model is wrong, it is jus= t one-dimensional;
a= ssuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible
outcomes.

Writing more about this shortly.

Cheers... Steve

=
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:5= 7, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org
<= blockquote type=3D"cite"><mailto:mallory@article19.org>&= gt; wrote:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hi Steve,=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks for sharing.= I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0think the metaphor is soli= d economically. And politically, well, that
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0could be another post in and of = itself..

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The agraria= n commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sort of old-world = economic structure that politically controls and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0profits from (what should b= e) the commons. This sets you up nicely to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0call for modern economic models r= anging from squarely capitalist to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0socialist, and even (back to) the common= s!

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'm CCing HRP= C because it might be of interest to those who have
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0raised
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0issues of centrali= sation on the list in the past.

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0-Mallory

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
Hi all,
=
This is a reflection on the current state of terrestria= l fibre
infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I thin= k applies just about
everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">https://manypos= sibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/

<= /blockquote>
Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other
=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0reactions
you may have.=C2=A0

=
Thanks..... Steve Song

=

_______________________________________________
<= /blockquote>
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.o= rg>
https://www.irtf.org/mailman= /listinfo/gaia

=


=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0--
= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Mallory Knodel
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Head of Digital :: article19.org <http://art= icle19.org>
= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C= 32 A271 BD3C C780

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0__= _____________________________________________
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia mailing list
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia@irtf.org = <m= ailto:gaia@irtf..org>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/gaia



--
= +1 902 529 0046
stev= esong@nsrc.org <mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org>
http://nsrc..org <http://nsrc.org>=


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
=
https://www.irtf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/hrpc

<= br>--
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical = Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3= D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
=
____________________________________________= ___
gaia mailing list
gaia@= irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia<= br>

--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@= irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia<= br> _______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://= www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


--
=
Carlos Rey-Moreno, PhD
"Community and Local Access Networks" Project Coordinator <= br>Association for Progressive Communications
https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-u= nconnected-connect-themselves
Cel: +27 (0) 76= 986 3633
Skype: carlos.reymoreno=C2=A0Twitter: Creym
<= /div>
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


--
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d="asc'?png'150?scan'150,208,217,150";a="7372879" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 22 Oct 2018 07:28:10 +0000 Received: from [10.61.109.57] (dhcp-10-61-109-57.cisco.com [10.61.109.57]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w9M7SAJc022977; Mon, 22 Oct 2018 07:28:10 GMT To: Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org References: <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> <5e17bafc-92e0-d9ef-4471-b19bb5f46f6b@cisco.com> <20181021083513.vpxth2a7va2aw3yi@mx4.yitter.info> <793c778b-cac9-1a08-dbac-21915a573624@cisco.com> <20181021233126.ttqegyh7bkce7l47@mx4.yitter.info> From: Eliot Lear Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lear@cisco.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20181021233126.ttqegyh7bkce7l47@mx4.yitter.info> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nMx7VpyTvX3iXMiVwEVoiVCa1gunAxId0" X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.109.57, dhcp-10-61-109-57.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt) X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 07:28:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --nMx7VpyTvX3iXMiVwEVoiVCa1gunAxId0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0xJcBrL0C09ELQCkcL7yGVe6LclENHxDD"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt) References: <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net> <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> <5e17bafc-92e0-d9ef-4471-b19bb5f46f6b@cisco.com> <20181021083513.vpxth2a7va2aw3yi@mx4.yitter.info> <793c778b-cac9-1a08-dbac-21915a573624@cisco.com> <20181021233126.ttqegyh7bkce7l47@mx4.yitter.info> In-Reply-To: <20181021233126.ttqegyh7bkce7l47@mx4.yitter.info> --0xJcBrL0C09ELQCkcL7yGVe6LclENHxDD Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8D77BDD627E879382E54B837" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8D77BDD627E879382E54B837 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andrew, In replying to your note, I realized that a graphic would be useful, and I'm not quite sure how our mailers will handle them.=C2=A0 Therefore, the= y are also located at https://www.ofcourseimright.com/pages/internets.pdf. On 22.10.18 01:31, Andrew Sullivan wrote: >> The reason I revived this earlier point is because it is fundamental t= o >> blocking and filtering, as to whether we have one Internet or more tha= n >> one Internet, and it is a question that is squarely in view, given Eri= c >> Schmidt's comments in September, and a New York Times Editorial this >> past week. > I'm not sure I agree. On blocking and filtering and the "multinet" > world, there's more than one way to describe it. One is the stance > "this is fragmenting the Internet". But I actually think it's > different, and that Schmidt's piece is just basically wrong. In one > version of what he's describing, there a world with the Internet, and > a new and much larger AOL on the side. The ChinAOL he is describing > is a centrally-contolled and permission-goverened walled garden that > sometimes (when it is convenient) connects to resources on the > Internet. The Internet remains the relatively open network of > networks that we already have. There is nothing new about this model: > only the size of the population behind the wall is different. Right.=C2=A0 Mr. Schmidt might even be told, "Look behind you," because t= hat line was passed years ago.=C2=A0 But blocking and filtering comes in many= forms, as Richard & Olaf et. al documented.=C2=A0 One of those forms is f= rom the source, and we are certainly seeing that in the form of organizations not willing to risk offering content to Europeans due to the GDPR.=C2=A0 One could reasonably argue that the Internet right now is= beginning to look a little like this (page one of the above link): A little like that, although it's really multi-dimensional.=C2=A0 Also, t= he controls for each system vary from blocking to filtering to import controls to various SP regulations,=C2=A0 etc. This would clearly violate the network ethic, if you will.=C2=A0 It also = has certain attendant economic limitations.=C2=A0 It also puts the economical= ly disadvantaged at a further disadvantage if they cannot meet the obligations of entering a market.=C2=A0 (Another component of that green bubble, by the way, is the so-called =E2=80=9CDark Net=E2=80=9D). The network ethic, however, is not just that but an economic paradigm, and so the above seems ripe for consolidation along these lines (page 2 of the above link): I think this was what Mr. Schmidt was getting at.=C2=A0=C2=A0 One might s= ay, =E2=80=9Cbut these are not really three Internets=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 For all intents and = purposes, if communication is prevented due to whatever rules are in place, they are. Each of these systems requires different technical capabilities.=C2=A0 Th= e question is how these systems then interact with each other, and in the context of this RG, human rights.=C2=A0 At this point, it becomes a manageable problem for people to participate in all THREE of these communities, so long as they obey the rules of each and are aware of which rules the other side is demanding.=C2=A0 There clearly is mechanism= required for such a system to work, and tagging (perhaps at a very gross level) might be one approach.=C2=A0 Here I think one would say that the network ethic would encourage the building of such tools. By the way, I do not claim that this is desirable, merely that it is a possible future that we should consider.=C2=A0 As we have seen, however, international concerns will want to sell to all comers. Eliot --------------8D77BDD627E879382E54B837 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------0AEDA5E26CCBF7D614062754" --------------0AEDA5E26CCBF7D614062754 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Andrew,

In replying to your note, I realized that a graphic would be useful, and I'm not quite sure how our mailers will handle them.=C2=A0 Theref= ore, they are also located at https://www.ofcourseimright.com/pages/internet= s.pdf.

On 22.10.18 01:31, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

      

        
The reason I revived this earlier point is because=
 it is fundamental to
blocking and filtering, as to whether we have one Internet or more than
one Internet, and it is a question that is squarely in view, given Eric
Schmidt's comments in September, and a New York Times Editorial this
past week.


      

      
I'm not sure I agree.  On blocking and filtering and the "multinet"
world, there's more than one way to describe it.  One is the stance
"this is fragmenting the Internet".  But I actually think it's
different, and that Schmidt's piece is just basically wrong.  In one
version of what he's describing, there a world with the Internet, and
a new and much larger AOL on the side.  The ChinAOL he is describing
is a centrally-contolled and permission-goverened walled garden that
sometimes (when it is convenient) connects to resources on the
Internet.  The Internet remains the relatively open network of
networks that we already have.  There is nothing new about this model:
only the size of the population behind the wall is different.

    

    

    Right.=C2=A0 Mr. Schmidt might even be told, "Look behind you," becau=
se
    that line was passed years ago.=C2=A0 But blocking and filtering come=
s in
    many forms, as Richard & Olaf et. al documented.=C2=A0 One of tho=
se
    forms is from the source, and we are certainly seeing that in the
    form of organizations not willing to risk offering content to
    Europeans due to the GDPR.=C2=A0 One could reasonably argue that the
    Internet right now is beginning to look a little like this (page one
    of the above link):

    

    3D""

    

    A little like that, although it's really multi-dimensional.=C2=A0 Als=
o,
    the controls for each system vary from blocking to filtering to
    import controls to various SP regulations,=C2=A0 etc.

    

    This would clearly violate the network ethic, if you will.=C2=A0 It a=
lso
    has certain attendant economic limitations.=C2=A0 It also puts the
    economically disadvantaged at a further disadvantage if they cannot
    meet the obligations of entering a market.=C2=A0 (Another component o=
f
    that green bubble, by the way, is the so-called =E2=80=9CDark Net=E2=80=
=9D).

    

    The network ethic, however, is not just that but an economic
    paradigm, and so the above seems ripe for consolidation along these
    lines (page 2 of the above link):

    

    3D""

    

    

    

    I think this was what Mr. Schmidt was getting at.=C2=A0=C2=A0 One mig=
ht say,
    =E2=80=9Cbut these are not really three Internets=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 For=
 all intents and
    purposes, if communication is prevented due to whatever rules are in
    place, they are.

    

    Each of these systems requires different technical capabilities.=C2=A0=

    The question is how these systems then interact with each other, and
    in the context of this RG, human rights.=C2=A0 At this point, it beco=
mes
    a manageable problem for people to participate in all THREE of these
    communities, so long as they obey the rules of each and are aware of
    which rules the other side is demanding.=C2=A0 There clearly is mecha=
nism
    required for such a system to work, and tagging (perhaps at a very
    gross level) might be one approach.=C2=A0 Here I think one would say =
that
    the network ethic would encourage the building of such tools.

    

    By the way, I do not claim that this is desirable, merely that it is
    a possible future that we should consider.=C2=A0 As we have seen,
    however, international concerns will want to sell to all comers.

    

    Eliot

    

  


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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Vittorio Bertola ,
 Fred Baker ,
 Melinda Shore 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: <5d0cde78-c27b-109b-2540-279daccc1f2e@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for
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Hiya,

On 21/10/2018 16:44, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
>=20
>> Il 21 ottobre 2018 alle 0.17 Stephen Farrell <
>> stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > ha
>> scritto:
>>=20
>> To be frank - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a=20
>> real discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt to
>> continue recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols like
>> TLS. If the proponents here are really interested in HR issues,
>> then I would argue they'd be wiser to ensure that such confusion
>> isn't likely. And that's quite doable - just focus on HR issues
>> that do not overlap with weakening crypto - seems to me there are
>> many of those ripe for discussion that are nothing tcao do with
>> crypto. (E.g. troll farms being used at the application layer to
>> influence discussions and what that might mean in terms of
>> technical requirements to create accounts at services.)
>>=20
> It seems you have really misunderstood my intentions (and, I think,
> those of the other authors as well).=20

I wasn't questioning your intentions specifically, but it
is fair to say that those interested in filtering are sometimes
unhappy with proper use of TLS - so that they can do the DPI
they claim is needed.

That was specifically called out in this discussion earlier,
e.g. as seen at [1] and filtering of various kinds was also
one of the justifications offered for the most recent proposal
for weakening TLS [2] that did not garner IETF consensus.

So the background here is relevant, hence my encouraging
you and co-authors to make it clear if you're not actually
arguing to weaken security mechanisms in order to make it
easier to do what you see as "good" filtering.

Your draft also says we need to try "to establish principles,
guidelines and technical protocols that can increase transparency
and user control over these practices, allowing users to
distinguish between the bad and the good uses of content
classification and filtering schemes" which, to this reader,
could be read as calling for weakened security. Again, I'm not
saying that is your intention, but you are also not clearly
stating that it is not. And "technical protocols that can
increase transparency" is the kind of phraseology that fairly
strongly reminds me of the (ab)use of the term "visibility"
in [2].

   [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/msg01715.html
   [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rhrd-tls-tls13-visibility-01

> No one ever mentioned weakening
> cryptography or TLS - in fact, encrypting connections is such a good
> thing that I have been spending a significant chunk of my time for
> the last two years in meeting telcos around the globe and explaining
> them how to adopt DANE. Also, the company I work for is AFAIK the
> first major name server software maker adding DNS-over-HTTPS support
> in their application.
>=20
> The problem with DNS-over-HTTPS is rather that, as it is being
> deployed now, it is solving a privacy threat deriving from ISPs
> sniffing DNS queries in transit to profile individual users
> (something honestly unheard of, at least in Europe),

IIUC, there are issues with such filtering in some places, at
least that's one of the justifications offered by those who
developed DoH.

> and creating a
> much bigger privacy threat by allowing dominant OTTs to centralize
> DNS query data in their hands and possibly feed their well known user
> data monetization and pervasive monitoring systems.

Yes, those trade offs are real but ISTM that e.g. quad9 are
as well or better able to filter as an ISP, in terms of any
kind(s) of filtering that might be claimed to be desirable
for the user of the stub resolver. (Not that most end users
are at all aware of their DNS traffic.)

I do agree about the downsides to the wider use of megascalers'
recursives. That's a real concern. But setting up one's own
recursive isn't a great fix there, so I'm not sure what real
options exist that are that much better. (That's a space that
is worth exploring though, but off-topic for hrpc probably.)

> But this is not a problem with the encryption in the protocol, it is
> a problem of troubling and covert architectural mutations (turning
> DNS into an over-the-top application) and of lack of understanding
> and attention for how the DNS works today and what it is being used
> for, up to the point of breaking stuff that, as Fred put it, "is
> frequently a reason that Internet access actually works", to create
> more privacy threats than it solves. Yet if you go through the draft
> there is no consideration on how to mitigate this, no justification
> or responsibility taken for this, just a note on "yes this may break
> some security stuff", and no solution provided. Do you still wonder
> why so many DNS and security people are upset?

I'm not surprised that DoH has upset people, no - such changes
always upset someone. I'm fairly sure that proponents of DoH
wouldn't accept your description above though (what is a "covert
architectural mutation" - perhaps modifying a whiteboard while
someone went for coffee? :-)

> The problem is that encryption is not a silver bullet for privacy,
> and once you deploy it, the real privacy risk lies at the endpoint of
> the connection; and that endpoint is also the only place available to
> exert some content control when necessary. The desirable (or
> undesirable) interactions between those endpoints and the existing
> use cases for content control should have been considered and
> addressed before releasing this stuff as a standard=20

Where was that consideration omitted? I'm not clear what you
mean. IIRC, there was plenty of discussion of DoH on the DPRIVE
list. It may well be that the FF/CF stuff took people who weren't
active on that list by surprise - perhaps that's what you mean?

>- and writing
> down those use cases is IMHO a way to start that long due
> discussion.

Hmm, maybe. The centralisation tendencies of DoH seem pretty far
from a HR discussion though.

Cheers,
S.


>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> --
>=20
> Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange=20
> vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
> mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12,
> 10144 Torino, Italy
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20
> hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>=20

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Cc: Vittorio Bertola 
From: Amelia Andersdotter 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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On 2018-10-21 17:44, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
>
>> Il 21 ottobre 2018 alle 0.17 Stephen Farrell <
>> stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie > ha
>> scritto:
>>
>> To be frank - I find it hard to separate out how much this is a
>> real discussion of HR issues and how much it's just an attempt
>> to continue recent attempts to weaken the security of protocols
>> like TLS. If the proponents here are really interested in HR
>> issues, then I would argue they'd be wiser to ensure that such
>> confusion isn't likely. And that's quite doable - just focus on
>> HR issues that do not overlap with weakening crypto - seems to
>> me there are many of those ripe for discussion that are nothing
>> to do with crypto. (E.g. troll farms being used at the application
>> layer to influence discussions and what that might mean in terms
>> of technical requirements to create accounts at services.)
> It seems you have really misunderstood my intentions (and, I think,
> those of the other authors as well). No one ever mentioned weakening
> cryptography or TLS - in fact, encrypting connections is such a good
> thing that I have been spending a significant chunk of my time for the
> last two years in meeting telcos around the globe and explaining them
> how to adopt DANE. Also, the company I work for is AFAIK the first
> major name server software maker adding DNS-over-HTTPS support in
> their application.
>
> The problem with DNS-over-HTTPS is rather that, as it is being
> deployed now, it is solving a privacy threat deriving from ISPs
> sniffing DNS queries in transit to profile individual users (something
> honestly unheard of, at least in Europe), and creating a much bigger
> privacy threat by allowing dominant OTTs to centralize DNS query data
> in their hands and possibly feed their well known user data
> monetization and pervasive monitoring systems.

Nothing in principle has stopped ISPs, especially large ISPs in the EU,
from taking a lead on privacy-friendly DNS. In fact, as they themselves
frequently and verbosely point out, they are under some of the strongest
legal obligations in the world to do so. They just don't wanna, and now
someone else is doing something that actually does create better
transparency (and therefore better consumer empowerment), and that's
wrong too. Every activity is wrong as long as it helps consumers
understand what's going on! It's the whine-ocracy: rather than doing
great stuff, whine.

If privacy was truly a concern of a broader range of stakeholders,
especially in the "non-OTT sector" (as it were), these stakeholders
would be involved in developing stronger DNS privacy data management
standards at the DPRIV WG[1].

With such a standard we would have a gold standard and something against
the backdrop of which we could measure the new OTT powerhouses
objectively. Unsurprisingly, whiners have instead expressed caution
about such developments for a variety of reasons (ranging from "we don't
wanna" to "IETF should not be doing this"). Prior examples of the IETF
doing Best Practise Documents including data management, is however the
existing similar data management guidelines for DNSSEC (which were
specifically made to help smaller actors manage keys and other vital
information securely and competently). Apparently, it's OK to whine
about data management standards that would be genuinely helpful to
smaller market players, and provide objective metrics for the OTTs, as
long as there is an objective benefit for consumers and/or individuals
to be had from such practises. Why?

I find this very frustrating: OTTs, at the end of the day, are gaining a
lot of commercial ground because they're actually trying to do good
stuff (broadly, in this context, implying "transparency towards
consumers"). Nothing stops anyone else from doing good stuff too! In
particular, I do not see whining about user-friendly developments
contributing to the success of non-OTTs.

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dickinson-dprive-bcp-op-01

best,

Amelia

>
> But this is not a problem with the encryption in the protocol, it is a
> problem of troubling and covert architectural mutations (turning DNS
> into an over-the-top application) and of lack of understanding and
> attention for how the DNS works today and what it is being used for,
> up to the point of breaking stuff that, as Fred put it, "is frequently
> a reason that Internet access actually works", to create more privacy
> threats than it solves. Yet if you go through the draft there is no
> consideration on how to mitigate this, no justification or
> responsibility taken for this, just a note on "yes this may break some
> security stuff", and no solution provided. Do you still wonder why so
> many DNS and security people are upset?
>
> The problem is that encryption is not a silver bullet for privacy, and
> once you deploy it, the real privacy risk lies at the endpoint of the
> connection; and that endpoint is also the only place available to
> exert some content control when necessary. The desirable (or
> undesirable) interactions between those endpoints and the existing use
> cases for content control should have been considered and addressed
> before releasing this stuff as a standard - and writing down those use
> cases is IMHO a way to start that long due discussion.
>
> Regards,
>
> --=20
>
> Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
> vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com =20
> Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

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Hi all,

I have two comments:

1. The draft makes no distinction between "filtering" and "censorship".
While it seeks to establish that filtering can be done for morally valid
reasons, it does so by saying censorship is morally valid.

This is unlike most other rationalisations of filtering that I have
seen, which typically go along the lines of "it is not censorship to
filter child sexual abuse images, since it is not a human right to
express child sexual abuse images". If I could make a suggestion to the
drafters, it would be to keep separate censorship within the meaning of
human rights law (i.e. ensuring there is a distinction between
inhibiting expressions that would enjoy human rights protection and
inhibiting expressions that would not).

2. The draft contains no technical information so serve as a basis for
the evaluation of protocols. It references no technical mechanisms at
the IETF or the IRTF, or indeed any technology used for any filtering
anywhere. It merely establishes that the authors believe there are
morally valid censorship/filtering activities ongoing in different
context. One could imagine it would otherwise be interesting to
distinguish between DNS-based filtering, or software-implemented
filtering, or even plug-in-based filtering (such as some commonly used
ad-blockers), as well as the different methods of filtering that are
chosen by consumers, employers, service providers or governments for
different contexts. We could imagine a mapping of trade-offs, for
instance the trade-off between intercepting an encrypted website with a
warning message from the government, and having reliable encryption and
forwarding to protect users against phishing (essentially the same
issues that are being discussed in relation to captive portals).

While the deficiencies of the draft in terms of the 1st point makes it
objectionable to me as such unless it is changed, the deficiencies
pointed to in my 2nd comment could make the draft an actually useful
survey if they were remedied.

best regards,

Amelia


On 2018-10-18 05:49, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> All,
>
> We have posted a draft on filtering techniques.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Would appre=
ciate
> comments from the group.
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter=

> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Human Rights Considerations of=
 Internet Filtering
> Document date:=C2=A0 2018-10-17
> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16
> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-e=
lkins-hrpc-ifilter-00
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
>
>
> Abstract:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document is a survey of the filtering of content.=C2=A0=
 The focus is
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Dec=
laration of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Human Rights" which is one of the foundational documents f=
or HRPC.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The recent years have seen an increase in content filterin=
g for a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0variety of reasons including to further the aims of govern=
ments who
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0wish to maintain their rule and suppress dissent but also =
to enforce
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law.=C2=
=A0 Filters
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0also exist for security (botnets, malware etc.), user-defi=
ned
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0policies (parental control, corporate blocking of social n=
etworks
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyright=
ed material
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0and other reasons. This document is based on several real =
world
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0considerations: the existence of national and regional sov=
ereignty,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content Distribution=
 Networks
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0(CDNs) that provide connectivity and content hosting servi=
ces, Over-
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that =
play a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0disproportionate role in capturing the attention and "eyeb=
alls" of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0many of the users of the Internet.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
> .
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> --=20
> Thanks,
> Nalini Elkins
> President
> Enterprise Data Center Operators
> www.e-dco.com 
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55



From nobody Mon Oct 22 02:30:03 2018
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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:29:55 +0000 (UTC)
From: Mallory Knodel 
To: Amelia Andersdotter 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: <1222939792.18469213.1540200595606.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org>
In-Reply-To: 
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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Thanks for these suggestions, Amelia. And to others on the list who have gi=
ven concrete feedback for how to improve the draft.

This feedback is not easy to fix and in some cases might require structural=
 changes from the authors.

I think while discussion has been sparked by the draft it would be best to =
see a new revised version based on these concrete suggestions before restar=
ting the debate in Bangkok. Without these changes we risk having to raise t=
he same points again in the meeting.

If we can get a new version, I suggest we debate that newer version in Bang=
kok or Prague, depending on the timeline.

-M

----- Original Message -----
From: Amelia Andersdotter 
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:14:36 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-=
00.txt

Hi all,

I have two comments:

1. The draft makes no distinction between "filtering" and "censorship".
While it seeks to establish that filtering can be done for morally valid
reasons, it does so by saying censorship is morally valid.

This is unlike most other rationalisations of filtering that I have
seen, which typically go along the lines of "it is not censorship to
filter child sexual abuse images, since it is not a human right to
express child sexual abuse images". If I could make a suggestion to the
drafters, it would be to keep separate censorship within the meaning of
human rights law (i.e. ensuring there is a distinction between
inhibiting expressions that would enjoy human rights protection and
inhibiting expressions that would not).

2. The draft contains no technical information so serve as a basis for
the evaluation of protocols. It references no technical mechanisms at
the IETF or the IRTF, or indeed any technology used for any filtering
anywhere. It merely establishes that the authors believe there are
morally valid censorship/filtering activities ongoing in different
context. One could imagine it would otherwise be interesting to
distinguish between DNS-based filtering, or software-implemented
filtering, or even plug-in-based filtering (such as some commonly used
ad-blockers), as well as the different methods of filtering that are
chosen by consumers, employers, service providers or governments for
different contexts. We could imagine a mapping of trade-offs, for
instance the trade-off between intercepting an encrypted website with a
warning message from the government, and having reliable encryption and
forwarding to protect users against phishing (essentially the same
issues that are being discussed in relation to captive portals).

While the deficiencies of the draft in terms of the 1st point makes it
objectionable to me as such unless it is changed, the deficiencies
pointed to in my 2nd comment could make the draft an actually useful
survey if they were remedied.

best regards,

Amelia


On 2018-10-18 05:49, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> All,
>
> We have posted a draft on filtering techniques.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Would appreci=
ate
> comments from the group.
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Human Rights Considerations of I=
nternet Filtering
> Document date:=C2=A0 2018-10-17
> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16
> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elk=
ins-hrpc-ifilter-00
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
>
>
> Abstract:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document is a survey of the filtering of content.=C2=A0=
 The focus is
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Decla=
ration of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Human Rights" which is one of the foundational documents for=
 HRPC.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The recent years have seen an increase in content filtering =
for a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0variety of reasons including to further the aims of governme=
nts who
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0wish to maintain their rule and suppress dissent but also to=
 enforce
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law.=C2=
=A0 Filters
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0also exist for security (botnets, malware etc.), user-define=
d
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0policies (parental control, corporate blocking of social net=
works
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyrighted=
 material
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0and other reasons. This document is based on several real wo=
rld
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0considerations: the existence of national and regional sover=
eignty,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content Distribution N=
etworks
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0(CDNs) that provide connectivity and content hosting service=
s, Over-
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that pl=
ay a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0disproportionate role in capturing the attention and "eyebal=
ls" of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0many of the users of the Internet.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
> .
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> --=20
> Thanks,
> Nalini Elkins
> President
> Enterprise Data Center Operators
> www.e-dco.com 
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


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To: Mallory Knodel , Amelia Andersdotter 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com>  <1222939792.18469213.1540200595606.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org>
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Mallory,

Can I offer an alternative suggestion?  Rather than blocking discussion
at the HRPC meeting altogether, might you consider asking the authors at
the meeting to focus on responses to the comments received?

Eliot


On 22.10.18 11:29, Mallory Knodel wrote:
> Thanks for these suggestions, Amelia. And to others on the list who have given concrete feedback for how to improve the draft.
>
> This feedback is not easy to fix and in some cases might require structural changes from the authors.
>
> I think while discussion has been sparked by the draft it would be best to see a new revised version based on these concrete suggestions before restarting the debate in Bangkok. Without these changes we risk having to raise the same points again in the meeting.
>
> If we can get a new version, I suggest we debate that newer version in Bangkok or Prague, depending on the timeline.
>
> -M
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amelia Andersdotter 
> To: hrpc@irtf.org
> Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:14:36 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have two comments:
>
> 1. The draft makes no distinction between "filtering" and "censorship".
> While it seeks to establish that filtering can be done for morally valid
> reasons, it does so by saying censorship is morally valid.
>
> This is unlike most other rationalisations of filtering that I have
> seen, which typically go along the lines of "it is not censorship to
> filter child sexual abuse images, since it is not a human right to
> express child sexual abuse images". If I could make a suggestion to the
> drafters, it would be to keep separate censorship within the meaning of
> human rights law (i.e. ensuring there is a distinction between
> inhibiting expressions that would enjoy human rights protection and
> inhibiting expressions that would not).
>
> 2. The draft contains no technical information so serve as a basis for
> the evaluation of protocols. It references no technical mechanisms at
> the IETF or the IRTF, or indeed any technology used for any filtering
> anywhere. It merely establishes that the authors believe there are
> morally valid censorship/filtering activities ongoing in different
> context. One could imagine it would otherwise be interesting to
> distinguish between DNS-based filtering, or software-implemented
> filtering, or even plug-in-based filtering (such as some commonly used
> ad-blockers), as well as the different methods of filtering that are
> chosen by consumers, employers, service providers or governments for
> different contexts. We could imagine a mapping of trade-offs, for
> instance the trade-off between intercepting an encrypted website with a
> warning message from the government, and having reliable encryption and
> forwarding to protect users against phishing (essentially the same
> issues that are being discussed in relation to captive portals).
>
> While the deficiencies of the draft in terms of the 1st point makes it
> objectionable to me as such unless it is changed, the deficiencies
> pointed to in my 2nd comment could make the draft an actually useful
> survey if they were remedied.
>
> best regards,
>
> Amelia
>
>
> On 2018-10-18 05:49, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> We have posted a draft on filtering techniques.   Would appreciate
>> comments from the group.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>
>> Name:           draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
>> Revision:       00
>> Title:          Human Rights Considerations of Internet Filtering
>> Document date:  2018-10-17
>> Group:          Individual Submission
>> Pages:          16
>> URL:           
>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
>> Status:       
>>  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00
>> Htmlized:     
>>  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
>>
>>
>> Abstract:
>>    This document is a survey of the filtering of content.  The focus is
>>    on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Declaration of
>>    Human Rights" which is one of the foundational documents for HRPC.
>>    The recent years have seen an increase in content filtering for a
>>    variety of reasons including to further the aims of governments who
>>    wish to maintain their rule and suppress dissent but also to enforce
>>    cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law.  Filters
>>    also exist for security (botnets, malware etc.), user-defined
>>    policies (parental control, corporate blocking of social networks
>>    during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyrighted material
>>    and other reasons. This document is based on several real world
>>    considerations: the existence of national and regional sovereignty,
>>    Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content Distribution Networks
>>    (CDNs) that provide connectivity and content hosting services, Over-
>>    the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that play a
>>    disproportionate role in capturing the attention and "eyeballs" of
>>    many of the users of the Internet.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>> submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
>> .
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Thanks,
>> Nalini Elkins
>> President
>> Enterprise Data Center Operators
>> www.e-dco.com 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> hrpc mailing list
>> hrpc@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>


From nobody Mon Oct 22 02:51:17 2018
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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:51:08 +0000 (UTC)
From: Mallory Knodel 
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org
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Hi Eliot,

I am suggesting that the face to face meeting be productive and progress th=
e discussion.=20

If a new version cannot be posted into the datatracker before 5 November, i=
t would be fine to have a new version addressing the current suggestions si=
mply available to others perhaps via GitHub or another web-based link as th=
e basis for a renewed debate. That=E2=80=99s up to the authors.

-M


----- Original Message -----
From: Eliot Lear 
To: Mallory Knodel , Amelia Andersdotter 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:46:10 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-=
00.txt

Mallory,

Can I offer an alternative suggestion?=C2=A0 Rather than blocking discussio=
n
at the HRPC meeting altogether, might you consider asking the authors at
the meeting to focus on responses to the comments received?

Eliot


On 22.10.18 11:29, Mallory Knodel wrote:
> Thanks for these suggestions, Amelia. And to others on the list who have =
given concrete feedback for how to improve the draft.
>
> This feedback is not easy to fix and in some cases might require structur=
al changes from the authors.
>
> I think while discussion has been sparked by the draft it would be best t=
o see a new revised version based on these concrete suggestions before rest=
arting the debate in Bangkok. Without these changes we risk having to raise=
 the same points again in the meeting.
>
> If we can get a new version, I suggest we debate that newer version in Ba=
ngkok or Prague, depending on the timeline.
>
> -M
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Amelia Andersdotter 
> To: hrpc@irtf.org
> Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:14:36 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilte=
r-00.txt
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have two comments:
>
> 1. The draft makes no distinction between "filtering" and "censorship".
> While it seeks to establish that filtering can be done for morally valid
> reasons, it does so by saying censorship is morally valid.
>
> This is unlike most other rationalisations of filtering that I have
> seen, which typically go along the lines of "it is not censorship to
> filter child sexual abuse images, since it is not a human right to
> express child sexual abuse images". If I could make a suggestion to the
> drafters, it would be to keep separate censorship within the meaning of
> human rights law (i.e. ensuring there is a distinction between
> inhibiting expressions that would enjoy human rights protection and
> inhibiting expressions that would not).
>
> 2. The draft contains no technical information so serve as a basis for
> the evaluation of protocols. It references no technical mechanisms at
> the IETF or the IRTF, or indeed any technology used for any filtering
> anywhere. It merely establishes that the authors believe there are
> morally valid censorship/filtering activities ongoing in different
> context. One could imagine it would otherwise be interesting to
> distinguish between DNS-based filtering, or software-implemented
> filtering, or even plug-in-based filtering (such as some commonly used
> ad-blockers), as well as the different methods of filtering that are
> chosen by consumers, employers, service providers or governments for
> different contexts. We could imagine a mapping of trade-offs, for
> instance the trade-off between intercepting an encrypted website with a
> warning message from the government, and having reliable encryption and
> forwarding to protect users against phishing (essentially the same
> issues that are being discussed in relation to captive portals).
>
> While the deficiencies of the draft in terms of the 1st point makes it
> objectionable to me as such unless it is changed, the deficiencies
> pointed to in my 2nd comment could make the draft an actually useful
> survey if they were remedied.
>
> best regards,
>
> Amelia
>
>
> On 2018-10-18 05:49, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> We have posted a draft on filtering techniques.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Would apprec=
iate
>> comments from the group.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>
>> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
>> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
>> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Human Rights Considerations of =
Internet Filtering
>> Document date:=C2=A0 2018-10-17
>> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
>> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16
>> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
>> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
>> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-el=
kins-hrpc-ifilter-00
>> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
>>
>>
>> Abstract:
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document is a survey of the filtering of content.=C2=
=A0 The focus is
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Decl=
aration of
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Human Rights" which is one of the foundational documents fo=
r HRPC.
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The recent years have seen an increase in content filtering=
 for a
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0variety of reasons including to further the aims of governm=
ents who
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0wish to maintain their rule and suppress dissent but also t=
o enforce
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law.=
=C2=A0 Filters
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0also exist for security (botnets, malware etc.), user-defin=
ed
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0policies (parental control, corporate blocking of social ne=
tworks
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyrighte=
d material
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0and other reasons. This document is based on several real w=
orld
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0considerations: the existence of national and regional sove=
reignty,
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content Distribution =
Networks
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0(CDNs) that provide connectivity and content hosting servic=
es, Over-
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that p=
lay a
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0disproportionate role in capturing the attention and "eyeba=
lls" of
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0many of the users of the Internet.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>> submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
>> .
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>
>>
>>
>> --=20
>> Thanks,
>> Nalini Elkins
>> President
>> Enterprise Data Center Operators
>> www.e-dco.com 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> hrpc mailing list
>> hrpc@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>



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To: Mallory Knodel 
Cc: Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com>  <1222939792.18469213.1540200595606.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> <5058c75f-8af0-0909-ad6d-968f4306c11b@cisco.com> <863489710.18471884.1540201868037.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org>
From: Eliot Lear 
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Hi,

On 22.10.18 11:51, Mallory Knodel wrote:
> I am suggesting that the face to face meeting be productive and progress the discussion. 

So am I. 

Let us put this in classic IETF terms.  People have raised issues (some
of them big ones) with the draft, a'la Github issue tracking.  One could
then reasonably spend the time focusing on each issue such that each may
be resolved.  It helps for the authors to have proposals for each, and
it's not unreasonable to ask for authors and others to come prepared
with their views as to how those issues should be resolved.  What is
unreasonable two weeks before a conference is to ask them to restructure
a document and address all issues as a prerequisite for discussion.

Eliot



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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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On 10/21/2018 10:35 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:02:41AM +0200, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>> Still, the Internet (as opposed to the IETF) might
>>> have as its core value that expansion of Internet-type communications
>>> and connectivity is a good (this is like the "selfish gene" value some
>>> biologists and sociobiologists believe in).  

Still not sure I understand how biological theories apply inanimate
assemblages such as the Internet. Does that mean that engineers and
companies are not actors? Or that engineers lose their subjectivity and
get overcome with this larger identity called the Internet when they
work on it, so that they can only do things 'for the good of the Internet'?

>>> From this we can infer
>>> that anything that improves that connectivity is positive and anything
>>> that impedes that connectivity is negative.  
>>
>> To be clear, in the context of the above note, I think you were merely
>> arguing that this *could* be true, not that it is true.  If it is true,
>> then does it hold that we should standardize mechanisms that might have
>> human rights harms associated with them that encourage a single
>> Internet?  Certainly content filtering and tagging have harms, so we
>> seem to have a good test case at hand ;-)
> 
> I think there's a lot to unpack in your "should", and I want to be
> quite careful.
> 
> What I was trying out in that passage you quote was really the
> plausibility of an alternative ethical framework.  The HRPC RG starts
> from the assumption that human rights are a framework for what amount
> to ethical considerations in protocol design.  That is the basis for
> Niels' oft-repeated quoting that protocols are politics by other
> means.
> 

My recent favorite is Shapiro and Varian's: 'standards are a wild mix of
politics and economics' ;)

> Certain ethical stances (such as various environmental ethics authors
> starting perhaps from John Muir and perhaps from Baruch Spinoza)
> regard many ethical systems as anthropocentric or even speciesist.
> That is, there is too great an emphasis on the state of the humans in
> the ethical stance, and not enough attention paid to other agents of
> the world.  This strain is particularly evident in environmental
> philosophy, because we are part of the natural world and yet we seem
> perfectly willing to despoil that world in our own interests.  This
> strain of environmental ethics requires that we take into account in
> evaluating what is "good" (and therefore what we should do) not only
> good-for-people but also good-for-animals, good-for-trees,
> good-for-forest-system, &c &c. 

But not inanimate objects, right?

> In a different vein, Aristotelean
> virtue ethics cultivates a view of virtue that need not extend only to
> humans, but that almost certainly requires a kind of proportionality
> in just about every case (which would at least arguably extend to the
> wider world, and not only to humanity).
> 
> Now, let us take seriously the idea that we create certain kinds of
> systemic technologies which alter reality such that the systemic
> technology has a certain logic of its own that is not necessarily the
> same as the instrumental logic that created the technology in the
> first place.  
> This is one of the meanings of that aphorism I like, "We
> shape our tools, and thereafter they shape us."[1] It seems to me at
> least plausible that the Internet is one such tool.  And in that case,
> it might be that there is an "ethic of the network" that has as its
> overarching value connecting nodes.

This is where I lose you. I agree that a network has its own
technlogical affordances (Hutchby 2001), which shapes, stimulates and
contrains behavior. But I don't see where this would lead to an ethics.
It is the kind of post-humanism that alludes me and seems to erase/hide
the work and choices of the 1000s of people working on it.

Instead of an ethic, isn't this some kind of 'health indicator', in the
ways in which Mozilla uses it with its Internet Health Report?

Happy to discuss!

Cheers,

Niels

> 
> I owe to Ted Hardie the observation that such an ethic could be
> paradoxical across different layers.  You might get _fewer_ connection
> paths through a social media network in the sense that the social
> media environments are often not really _part of_ the Internet but
> simply on top of it; but in that case, you might still get _more
> connection_ because of the ease of use for ordinary humans, who can
> use it to build more connections.
> 
> Under this view, there isn't a conflict of rights in the sense that a
> mechanism that could be used to harm human rights get standardized,
> but instead a conflict of ethical systems (in rather the way that
> utilitarian and deontological ethical frameworks can sometimes yield
> different results).
> 
> Anyway, I hope that explains what I was on about.  Whether it is
> germaine to the topic I will leave for others to determine.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> A
> 
> [1] Interestingly, an obvious example of this is the built
> environment.  A version of this quote, substituting "buildings" for
> "tools", is attributed to Winston Churchill, though I've never tracked
> down the original.
> 

-- 
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
Datactive Research Group
University of Amsterdam

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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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On 10/22/2018 01:31 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 11:14:27AM +0200, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> community: do we as a community (if that is what we are) subscribe to a
>> single ethics system, and if not, can we reconcile the differences
>> between such systems in our code?  Is adherence to a single ethics
>> system required as part of our standardization efforts, and what are the
>> ramifications either way?  Might someone form an alternative
>> Nihilist-Network Engineering Task Force ;-)?
> 
> That was part of the point of the argument I was making the first time
> around.  You don't actually need to have a common framework for the
> ethics to undertake the technology.  If you are a relativist, you
> might think that all of these frames are morally equivalent.  If you
> think human rights as defined by the UDHR are morally primary, you
> might be more concerned with that stance (and might wish to include a
> "human rights considerations" section).  But there is more than one
> way to describe this stance, and I was arguing at the time that
> treating protocols as _necessarily_ political was itself a
> frame-choosing stance (and therefore itself possibly political in a
> way that some stances would not accept).  

In the way that every stance is a frame-choosing stance, or do you mean
something else? There are different (philosphical and sociological
understandings of what 'frames' are (epistemological or strategic, etc).

> Kantians, for instance,
> don't accept moral relativism.  But that's not going to convince the
> moral relativist that Kantians are correct in their universal and
> rationalist stance.
> 
>> The reason I revived this earlier point is because it is fundamental to
>> blocking and filtering, as to whether we have one Internet or more than
>> one Internet, and it is a question that is squarely in view, given Eric
>> Schmidt's comments in September, and a New York Times Editorial this
>> past week.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree.  On blocking and filtering and the "multinet"
> world, there's more than one way to describe it.  One is the stance
> "this is fragmenting the Internet".  But I actually think it's
> different, and that Schmidt's piece is just basically wrong.  In one
> version of what he's describing, there a world with the Internet, and
> a new and much larger AOL on the side.  The ChinAOL he is describing
> is a centrally-contolled and permission-goverened walled garden that
> sometimes (when it is convenient) connects to resources on the
> Internet.  The Internet remains the relatively open network of
> networks that we already have.  There is nothing new about this model:
> only the size of the population behind the wall is different.
> 
> The human rights-centric description of this is that this is a bad
> political choice with negative consequences for the population behind
> the restrictions.  This puts us squarely into the world of arguing
> that our political stance (free expression) is better.  I am dubious
> about the prospects for success there.

I am still surprised that there is this much resistance in our community
against accepting human rights as a framework. There literally is not
another framework that is so widely shared and adopted.

I have also not said or implied we should enforce anything, but rather
know-and-show what our (potential) impact is.

After 4 years in this community I am still flabbergasted people argue
against adopting human rights as a framework.

> 
> The "networking ethic"-centric description of this is that the walled
> garden approach is a bad network choice, because it harms the ability
> of the network to increase connectivity.  Incidentally, as a necessary
> consequence, it deprives those inside the more-restrictive network of
> the potential of potentially innovative opportunities in the
> less-restrictive network, thereby in theory harming the opportunities
> available to those inside the more-restrictive system.  This might be
> a viable choice for a restrictor power who has a mostly-homogenous
> domestic market of more than 1 billion consumers with ready disposable
> income.  Whether this is a viable path for other restrictor powers is
> not clear to me, but it seems at least open to doubt.  So there might
> be follow-on policy consequences for this "networking ethic"-centric
> description, but the actual moral value of those choices does not
> immediately become a political argument in which netowrk-loving people
> need to argue in political terms against the values of some nation-states.
> 

May I point out that these nation-states have adopted the UDHR, ICCPR,
and ICESCR ?

Best,

Niels

> Best regards,
> 
> A
> 

-- 
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
Datactive Research Group
University of Amsterdam

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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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On Oct 22, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Niels ten Oever  =
wrote:
> I am still surprised that there is this much resistance in our =
community
> against accepting human rights as a framework. There literally is not
> another framework that is so widely shared and adopted.

When you try and try to communicate something to a group of people and =
they don't seem to be hearing you, there are several explanations that =
could account for the phenomenon.   One is that they just disagree with =
you, and you haven't made your case.   Another is that they don't =
understand what you are saying=E2=80=94that you aren't expressing it in =
a way that makes sense to them.   Another is that they agree with you =
but don't see how to put it into practice.

When you say "accepting human rights as a framework," I have literally =
no idea what you are talking about.   Human rights are important to me.  =
 How what we do in the IETF impacts human rights is important to me.   =
But I have no idea how "accepting human rights as a framework" relates =
to that.

Maybe rather than expressing frustration that you have failed thus far =
to communicate whatever it is that you mean, you could take a more =
methodical approach to figuring out what is going on.

One thing you might consider is that this group produces so much =
verbiage that it's impossible to follow.   As I said, I have a keen =
interest in the subject matter, but I find that I rarely manage to =
actually follow a conversation.   And when I do, I often find that what =
is being communicated is being communicated very poorly.

For example, you recently raised a topic on the IETF mailing list about =
"offensive language."   I was absolutely astounded that you would do =
such a thing.   The effect of this was to poison the well.   The term =
you chose was really poorly chosen, and had exactly the effect one could =
have predicted: it started a flame war.

It's great that your heart is in the right place, but you need more than =
that to be effective in the IETF.   I say this as one who has long =
experience screwing it up, of course.   You need to learn how to =
communicate effectively.   This message to which I am replying is an =
example of not communicating effectively.  It feels like it's just =
another ongoing flame war.

Ongoing flame wars damage discourse.   The most obvious reason is that =
they act as a denial-of-service attack: if the verbiage goes on forever, =
I can't follow it, and hence can't either agree with you or disagree =
with you, because I have been effectively excluded from the =
conversation.   You might want to consider whether this particular =
effect has something to do with the frustration you are expressing here.=

--Apple-Mail=_08749EB6-6371-4DC5-848B-57501F61DABD
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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On =
Oct 22, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net> wrote:
I am still surprised that there is this much resistance in =
our community
against =
accepting human rights as a framework. There literally is not
another =
framework that is so widely shared and =
adopted.

When you try and try to communicate something to a group of =
people and they don't seem to be hearing you, there are several =
explanations that could account for the phenomenon.   One is that =
they just disagree with you, and you haven't made your case.   =
Another is that they don't understand what you are saying=E2=80=94that =
you aren't expressing it in a way that makes sense to them.   =
Another is that they agree with you but don't see how to put it into =
practice.

When =
you say "accepting human rights as a framework," I have literally no =
idea what you are talking about.   Human rights are important to =
me.   How what we do in the IETF impacts human rights is important =
to me.   But I have no idea how "accepting human rights as a =
framework" relates to that.

Maybe rather than expressing frustration that you have =
failed thus far to communicate whatever it is that you mean, you could =
take a more methodical approach to figuring out what is going =
on.

One thing =
you might consider is that this group produces so much verbiage that =
it's impossible to follow.   As I said, I have a keen interest in =
the subject matter, but I find that I rarely manage to actually follow a =
conversation.   And when I do, I often find that what is being =
communicated is being communicated very poorly.

For example, you recently raised a =
topic on the IETF mailing list about "offensive language."   I was =
absolutely astounded that you would do such a thing.   The effect =
of this was to poison the well.   The term you chose was really =
poorly chosen, and had exactly the effect one could have predicted: it =
started a flame war.

It's great that your heart is in the right place, but you =
need more than that to be effective in the IETF.   I say this as =
one who has long experience screwing it up, of course.   You need =
to learn how to communicate effectively.   This message to which I =
am replying is an example of not communicating effectively.  It =
feels like it's just another ongoing flame war.

Ongoing flame wars damage discourse. =
  The most obvious reason is that they act as a denial-of-service =
attack: if the verbiage goes on forever, I can't follow it, and hence =
can't either agree with you or disagree with you, because I have been =
effectively excluded from the conversation.   You might want to =
consider whether this particular effect has something to do with the =
frustration you are expressing here.
=

--Apple-Mail=_08749EB6-6371-4DC5-848B-57501F61DABD--


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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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Hi Ted,

On 10/22/2018 02:40 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 22, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Niels ten Oever  > wrote:
>> I am still surprised that there is this much resistance in our community
>> against accepting human rights as a framework. There literally is not
>> another framework that is so widely shared and adopted.
> 
> When you try and try to communicate something to a group of people and
> they don't seem to be hearing you, there are several explanations that
> could account for the phenomenon.   One is that they just disagree with
> you, and you haven't made your case.   Another is that they don't
> understand what you are saying—that you aren't expressing it in a way
> that makes sense to them.   Another is that they agree with you but
> don't see how to put it into practice.
> 
> When you say "accepting human rights as a framework," I have literally
> no idea what you are talking about.   Human rights are important to me.
>   How what we do in the IETF impacts human rights is important to me.  
> But I have no idea how "accepting human rights as a framework" relates
> to that.

This was a response to the ethical frameworks discussion with Andrew,
who proposed 'other ethical frameworks'. There I argued that human
rights (as defined in treaties such as the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights, the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights,
and others) is the most widely accepted framework to in which people and
states have expressed norms and values.

> 
> Maybe rather than expressing frustration that you have failed thus far
> to communicate whatever it is that you mean, you could take a more
> methodical approach to figuring out what is going on.
> 
> One thing you might consider is that this group produces so much
> verbiage that it's impossible to follow.   As I said, I have a keen
> interest in the subject matter, but I find that I rarely manage to
> actually follow a conversation.   And when I do, I often find that what
> is being communicated is being communicated very poorly.
> 

I am very sorry to hear that.

> For example, you recently raised a topic on the IETF mailing list about
> "offensive language."   I was absolutely astounded that you would do
> such a thing.   The effect of this was to poison the well.   The term
> you chose was really poorly chosen, and had exactly the effect one could
> have predicted: it started a flame war.
> 

I did not see that coming to be frank, but I have sought to learn from
it and that has resulted in a new draft:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-knodel-terminology/

I hope the text in here is less poorly chosen, but if you have
suggestions for other text I would be more than happy to change!

> It's great that your heart is in the right place, but you need more than
> that to be effective in the IETF.   I say this as one who has long
> experience screwing it up, of course.   You need to learn how to
> communicate effectively.   This message to which I am replying is an
> example of not communicating effectively.  It feels like it's just
> another ongoing flame war.

I do not feel that the discussion we have been having about network
ethics, which has resulted in draft-irtf-hrpc-political-00, is useless
at all. At least I have learned a lot, and outlining these positions has
been interesting.

It saddens me you feel differently.
> 
> Ongoing flame wars damage discourse.   The most obvious reason is that
> they act as a denial-of-service attack: if the verbiage goes on forever,
> I can't follow it, and hence can't either agree with you or disagree
> with you, because I have been effectively excluded from the
> conversation.   You might want to consider whether this particular
> effect has something to do with the frustration you are expressing here.

I will, and am more than happy to also talk further about it in Bangkok.

Thanks for sharing.

Niels

-- 
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
Datactive Research Group
University of Amsterdam

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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 15:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
From: Vittorio Bertola 
To: Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org
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> Il 22 ottobre 2018 alle 11.13 Amelia Andersdotter  ha scritto:
> 
> Nothing in principle has stopped ISPs, especially large ISPs in the EU,
> from taking a lead on privacy-friendly DNS. In fact, as they themselves
> frequently and verbosely point out, they are under some of the strongest
> legal obligations in the world to do so. They just don't wanna, 

You do have a point here, and this will be a very positive effect of DoH: create the pressure necessary for ISPs to spend the money to update their DNS service to DoH/DoT (though I stress that as long as the IETF does not provide a standard way for them to publish the availability of such service, like DHCP does for unencrypted DNS resolvers, users will still not be available to use it).

However, this was mostly not about "we don't like privacy", but rather that the network path between the user's device and the ISP's resolver only traverses the ISP's network, so if the ISP keeps their network secure, the actual risk of interception is very low or non-existent. This is why transport security is a much bigger concern in an OTT architecture than it is in traditional DNS resolution services. So I think it was a technical judgement, not an ethical one.

> and now
> someone else is doing something that actually does create better
> transparency (and therefore better consumer empowerment),

How does DoH create "better transparency"? Maybe I don't get what you mean by transparency in this context.
 
> I find this very frustrating: OTTs, at the end of the day, are gaining a
> lot of commercial ground because they're actually trying to do good
> stuff (broadly, in this context, implying "transparency towards
> consumers"). Nothing stops anyone else from doing good stuff too!

Are you really serious? I mean, do you really think that these companies strive to "don't be evil"? They simply have found a business model for which they need to gather as much data as posisble about each human being on the planet; DNS queries are just one more dataset that they can put their hands upon, grind it into AI algorithms and turn it into advertising, customization and data flow revenues. I am not attaching moral judgements on this, but I also don't think it's useful to design standards and architectures by saying that certain business models are better than others.

Regards,
-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 02:02:36PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote:

> Still not sure I understand how biological theories apply inanimate
> assemblages such as the Internet.

It's just an analogy, not an equivalence.

> > evaluating what is "good" (and therefore what we should do) not only
> > good-for-people but also good-for-animals, good-for-trees,
> > good-for-forest-system, &c &c. 
> 
> But not inanimate objects, right?

This may depend on whether you think rocks and landscapes are
inanimate objects.

> contrains behavior. But I don't see where this would lead to an ethics.
> It is the kind of post-humanism that alludes me and seems to erase/hide
> the work and choices of the 1000s of people working on it.

No, no, it's just a duck-rabbit gestalt shift.  From the point of view
of the engineer, such-and-thus is good, but from the point of view of
the network such-and-other is good.  Maybe they're the same, but the
telos, to the extent there is one, differs.

It is a strange thing to think, I fully concede.  The idea that the
network itself has an end it is pursuing strikes me as faintly absurd.
But we don't seem to find the intentional stance strange when applied
to toasters or economic systems (or even data that "wants to be
free"!), so it's maybe a useful way of thinking about the network and
the pressures it _itself_ applies on its development.

> Instead of an ethic, isn't this some kind of 'health indicator', in the
> ways in which Mozilla uses it with its Internet Health Report?

No, I don't think so.

Best regards,

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@anvilwalrusden.com


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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 02:10:13PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> > treating protocols as _necessarily_ political was itself a
> > frame-choosing stance (and therefore itself possibly political in a
> > way that some stances would not accept).  
> 
> In the way that every stance is a frame-choosing stance, or do you mean

But rationalists, of course, don't actually accept that they're
choosing a "frame".  They think they're choosing truth.  Similarly,
many political types do not think that their gloss on "human rights"
is the wrong one, even though I may disagree with them pretty
strongly.

> I am still surprised that there is this much resistance in our community
> against accepting human rights as a framework. There literally is not
> another framework that is so widely shared and adopted.

I don't resist the acceptance of that framework.  I'm saying that one
doesn't _need_ to accept it in order to get good results for the
network.  That's important, because cutting out path dependencies for
protocols seems to me to be important.  To be clear, though, I don't
disagree with the project of figuring out how a protocol design
impinges on human rights.  I am just interested in seeing whether
there are other analyses that lead us to the same happy results
without having to argue about which rights count more than others, how
to balance them, or whether a given government-ordered shutdown is in
fact a violation of this or that right.  I have a different problem
than yours. :)

> May I point out that these nation-states have adopted the UDHR, ICCPR,
> and ICESCR ?

Sure, and they claim that turning off the network, or interfering with
packet flows, or so on, are all conforming to those.  I believe,
strongly, in "Turn it on, keep it on", but for me it's just as
important to be able to argue that in the terms of someone else.

Best regards,

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@anvilwalrusden.com


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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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On 10/22/2018 03:18 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 02:02:36PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> 
>> Still not sure I understand how biological theories apply inanimate
>> assemblages such as the Internet.
> 
> It's just an analogy, not an equivalence.
> 
>>> evaluating what is "good" (and therefore what we should do) not only
>>> good-for-people but also good-for-animals, good-for-trees,
>>> good-for-forest-system, &c &c. 
>>
>> But not inanimate objects, right?
> 
> This may depend on whether you think rocks and landscapes are
> inanimate objects.
> 

Valid and elegant point.

>> contrains behavior. But I don't see where this would lead to an ethics.
>> It is the kind of post-humanism that alludes me and seems to erase/hide
>> the work and choices of the 1000s of people working on it.
> 
> No, no, it's just a duck-rabbit gestalt shift.  From the point of view
> of the engineer, such-and-thus is good, but from the point of view of
> the network such-and-other is good.  Maybe they're the same, but the
> telos, to the extent there is one, differs.
> 
> It is a strange thing to think, I fully concede.  The idea that the
> network itself has an end it is pursuing strikes me as faintly absurd.

But also interesting and insightful :)

> But we don't seem to find the intentional stance strange when applied
> to toasters or economic systems (or even data that "wants to be
> free"!), so it's maybe a useful way of thinking about the network and
> the pressures it _itself_ applies on its development.

Fascinating! But economic systems try to understand and predict larger
events as systems, and not an ethical framework, right?

I fully agree that a higher level lens is useful for analysis,
especially if one is looking at such a large infrastructure (even though
Bowker et al* would probably argue differently). But then again, this
theory would be descriptive and not normative, right?

it would say something about what the network /does/ not what it /should
do/.

* https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4020-9789-8_5

Warm regards,

Niels
-- 
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
Datactive Research Group
University of Amsterdam

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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 03:31:35PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> > But we don't seem to find the intentional stance strange when applied
> > to toasters or economic systems (or even data that "wants to be
> > free"!), so it's maybe a useful way of thinking about the network and
> > the pressures it _itself_ applies on its development.
> 
> Fascinating! But economic systems try to understand and predict larger
> events as systems, and not an ethical framework, right?

Well, certain _economists_ certainly think that it's an ethical
framework.  Whether the economy itself thinks it is an ethical
framework (or maybe "value system") I don't know, but some
interpreters sure seem to feel that way.

> Bowker et al* would probably argue differently). But then again, this
> theory would be descriptive and not normative, right?

That depends how you're standing.  If you take the "stance of the
network" and just think more connection is better (assuming that's a
coherent thing to do), then it does amount to a kind of normative
structure.

Best regards,

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@anvilwalrusden.com


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To: Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org
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On 22.10.18 15:28, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> To be clear, though, I don't
> disagree with the project of figuring out how a protocol design
> impinges on human rights.=20

Nor do I, by the way.=C2=A0 so long as the full set of rights is consider=
ed.

Eliot


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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:04:26 +0000 (UTC)
From: Nalini J Elkins 
Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins 
To: Mallory Knodel ,  Amelia Andersdotter 
Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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Mallory,
>If we can get a new version, I suggest we debate that newer version in Ban=
gkok or Prague, depending on the timeline.

There are only a few hours left before the submission deadline.=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0I do not believe that is enough time for a new version.
I think that given the amount of discussion on this topic, it would be very=
 surprising if the chairs did not want to have this topic on the agenda for=
 further discussion.=C2=A0Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

      From: Mallory Knodel 
 To: Amelia Andersdotter =20
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
 Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 2:30 AM
 Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter=
-00.txt
  =20
Thanks for these suggestions, Amelia. And to others on the list who have gi=
ven concrete feedback for how to improve the draft.

This feedback is not easy to fix and in some cases might require structural=
 changes from the authors.

I think while discussion has been sparked by the draft it would be best to =
see a new revised version based on these concrete suggestions before restar=
ting the debate in Bangkok. Without these changes we risk having to raise t=
he same points again in the meeting.

If we can get a new version, I suggest we debate that newer version in Bang=
kok or Prague, depending on the timeline.

-M

----- Original Message -----
From: Amelia Andersdotter 
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:14:36 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-=
00.txt

Hi all,

I have two comments:

1. The draft makes no distinction between "filtering" and "censorship".
While it seeks to establish that filtering can be done for morally valid
reasons, it does so by saying censorship is morally valid.

This is unlike most other rationalisations of filtering that I have
seen, which typically go along the lines of "it is not censorship to
filter child sexual abuse images, since it is not a human right to
express child sexual abuse images". If I could make a suggestion to the
drafters, it would be to keep separate censorship within the meaning of
human rights law (i.e. ensuring there is a distinction between
inhibiting expressions that would enjoy human rights protection and
inhibiting expressions that would not).

2. The draft contains no technical information so serve as a basis for
the evaluation of protocols. It references no technical mechanisms at
the IETF or the IRTF, or indeed any technology used for any filtering
anywhere. It merely establishes that the authors believe there are
morally valid censorship/filtering activities ongoing in different
context. One could imagine it would otherwise be interesting to
distinguish between DNS-based filtering, or software-implemented
filtering, or even plug-in-based filtering (such as some commonly used
ad-blockers), as well as the different methods of filtering that are
chosen by consumers, employers, service providers or governments for
different contexts. We could imagine a mapping of trade-offs, for
instance the trade-off between intercepting an encrypted website with a
warning message from the government, and having reliable encryption and
forwarding to protect users against phishing (essentially the same
issues that are being discussed in relation to captive portals).

While the deficiencies of the draft in terms of the 1st point makes it
objectionable to me as such unless it is changed, the deficiencies
pointed to in my 2nd comment could make the draft an actually useful
survey if they were remedied.

best regards,

Amelia


On 2018-10-18 05:49, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> All,
>
> We have posted a draft on filtering techniques.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Would appreci=
ate
> comments from the group.
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Human Rights Considerations of I=
nternet Filtering
> Document date:=C2=A0 2018-10-17
> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16
> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elk=
ins-hrpc-ifilter-00
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
>
>
> Abstract:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document is a survey of the filtering of content.=C2=A0=
 The focus is
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Decla=
ration of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Human Rights" which is one of the foundational documents for=
 HRPC.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The recent years have seen an increase in content filtering =
for a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0variety of reasons including to further the aims of governme=
nts who
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0wish to maintain their rule and suppress dissent but also to=
 enforce
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law.=C2=
=A0 Filters
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0also exist for security (botnets, malware etc.), user-define=
d
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0policies (parental control, corporate blocking of social net=
works
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyrighted=
 material
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0and other reasons. This document is based on several real wo=
rld
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0considerations: the existence of national and regional sover=
eignty,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content Distribution N=
etworks
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0(CDNs) that provide connectivity and content hosting service=
s, Over-
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that pl=
ay a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0disproportionate role in capturing the attention and "eyebal=
ls" of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0many of the users of the Internet.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
> .
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> --=20
> Thanks,
> Nalini Elkins
> President
> Enterprise Data Center Operators
> www.e-dco.com 
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


  =20
------=_Part_1295020_1075381956.1540217066882
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


<=
span style=3D"font-family: "Helvetica Neue", "Segoe UI"=
, Helvetica, Arial, "Lucida Grande", sans-serif; font-size: 13px;=
" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1540215833636_46251">Mallory,

=

>If we can get a new version, I sug=
gest we debate that newer version in Bangkok or Prague, depending on the ti=
meline.
=


=

=
There are only a few hours left =
before the submission deadline.   I do not believe that is enough=
 time for a new version.
<=
br>
I think=
 that given the amount of discussion on this topic, it would be very surpri=
sing if the chairs did not want to have this topic on the agenda for furthe=
r discussion.
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and FounderInside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

  
 
 
  
 From: Mal=
lory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>
 To: Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
 Sent: Monday, October 22, 20=
18 2:30 AM
 Subject: Re=
: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
 =
 
 

Thanks for these suggestions, Amelia. =
And to others on the list who have given concrete feedback for how to impro=
ve the draft.

This feedback is not eas=
y to fix and in some cases might require structural changes from the author=
s.

I think while discussion has been s=
parked by the draft it would be best to see a new revised version based on =
these concrete suggestions before restarting the debate in Bangkok. Without=
 these changes we risk having to raise the same points again in the meeting=
.

If we can get a new version, I sugge=
st we debate that newer version in Bangkok or Prague, depending on the time=
line.

-M

----- Original Message -----
From: Amelia Ander=
sdotter <amelia@article19.org>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 0=
9:14:36 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notif=
ication for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt

Hi all,

I have two comments:
1. The draft makes no distinction betwee=
n "filtering" and "censorship".
While it seeks to establi=
sh that filtering can be done for morally valid
reasons, =
it does so by saying censorship is morally valid.

This is unlike most other rationalisations of filtering that I =
have
seen, which typically go along the lines of "it is n=
ot censorship to
filter child sexual abuse images, since =
it is not a human right to
express child sexual abuse ima=
ges". If I could make a suggestion to the
drafters, it wo=
uld be to keep separate censorship within the meaning of
=
human rights law (i.e. ensuring there is a distinction between
inhibiting expressions that would enjoy human rights protection andinhibiting expressions that would not).
=

2. The draft contains no technical information so serve =
as a basis for
the evaluation of protocols. It references=
 no technical mechanisms at
the IETF or the IRTF, or inde=
ed any technology used for any filtering
anywhere. It mer=
ely establishes that the authors believe there are
morall=
y valid censorship/filtering activities ongoing in different
context. One could imagine it would otherwise be interesting to
distinguish between DNS-based filtering, or software-implemented=

filtering, or even plug-in-based filtering (such as some=
 commonly used
ad-blockers), as well as the different met=
hods of filtering that are
chosen by consumers, employers=
, service providers or governments for
different contexts=
. We could imagine a mapping of trade-offs, for
instance =
the trade-off between intercepting an encrypted website with a
warning message from the government, and having reliable encryption a=
nd
forwarding to protect users against phishing (essentia=
lly the same
issues that are being discussed in relation =
to captive portals).

While the deficie=
ncies of the draft in terms of the 1st point makes it
obj=
ectionable to me as such unless it is changed, the deficiencies
pointed to in my 2nd comment could make the draft an actually useful=

survey if they were remedied.

best regards,

Amelia


On 2018-10-18 05:49, Nali=
ni J Elkins wrote:
> All,
>
> We have posted a draft on filtering techniques.  &nb=
sp;Would appreciate
> comments from the group.
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-if=
ilter-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Nali=
ni Elkins and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:        &nb=
sp;  draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
> Revision:  =
     00
> Title:      &n=
bsp;   Human Rights Considerations of Internet Filtering
> Document date:  2018-10-17
> Group:&nbs=
p;         Individual Submission
>=
 Pages:          16
> URL:&nb=
sp;          
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elkin=
s-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> Status:     =
;  
>  https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
=
> Htmlized:       https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00
>=
; Htmlized:     
>  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-hrpc=
-ifilter
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This document is a sur=
vey of the filtering of content.  The focus is
> =
   on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Declara=
tion of
>    Human Rights" which is one of t=
he foundational documents for HRPC.
>    The=
 recent years have seen an increase in content filtering for a
>    variety of reasons including to further the aims of=
 governments who
>    wish to maintain their=
 rule and suppress dissent but also to enforce
>  =
;  cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law.  Fil=
ters
>    also exist for security (botnets, =
malware etc.), user-defined
>    policies (p=
arental control, corporate blocking of social networks
&g=
t;    during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyrighte=
d material
>    and other reasons. This docu=
ment is based on several real world
>    con=
siderations: the existence of national and regional sovereignty,
>    Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content D=
istribution Networks
>    (CDNs) that provid=
e connectivity and content hosting services, Over-
> &=
nbsp;  the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that play =
a
>    disproportionate role in capturing th=
e attention and "eyeballs" of
>    many of t=
he users of the Internet.
>
>
>
>
> Please no=
te that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
=
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff =
are available at tools.ietf.org
> <http://tools.ietf.org/<=
/a>>.
>
> The IETF Secretariat=

>
>
>
> -- 
> Thanks,
>=
 Nalini Elkins
> President
> Ente=
rprise Data Center Operators
> www.e-dco.com <http://www.e-=
dco.com/>
>
>
>
>
> __________________=
_____________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


-- 
Amelia Andersdotter<=
br clear=3D"none">Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B=
4E8 0B55

<=
br clear=3D"none">
______________________________________=
_________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@=
irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/hrpc

______________________=
_________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irt=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


 
 
  

------=_Part_1295020_1075381956.1540217066882--


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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:12:44 +0000 (UTC)
From: Nalini J Elkins 
Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins 
To: Eliot Lear , Mallory Knodel 
Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" ,  Amelia Andersdotter 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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------=_Part_1295467_1830821732.1540217564363
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> What is=C2=A0unreasonable two weeks before a conference is to ask them to=
 restructure=C2=A0a document and address all issues as a prerequisite for d=
iscussion.
Thank you, Eliot.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mallory, I need to go to India in 4 days to h=
elp them to increase their IETF participation.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A number =
of us get together in India before the Asian IETF.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (Actually, =
any one who is interested in joining us in 2019, please contact me offline.=
=C2=A0 We are happy to have you.)
I have a huge number of things to do before I leave.
Frankly, I have never heard of this kind of objection in any other Working =
Group I have been involved in at the IETF=C2=A0 / IRTF.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Most pe=
ople in these circumstances would be eager to discuss this draft.=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Your objections surprise me greatly.=C2=A0Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

      From: Eliot Lear 
 To: Mallory Knodel =20
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org; Amelia Andersdotter 
 Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 3:26 AM
 Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter=
-00.txt
  =20
Hi,

On 22.10.18 11:51, Mallory Knodel wrote:
> I am suggesting that the face to face meeting be productive and progress =
the discussion.=20

So am I.=C2=A0

Let us put this in classic IETF terms.=C2=A0 People have raised issues (som=
e
of them big ones) with the draft, a'la Github issue tracking.=C2=A0 One cou=
ld
then reasonably spend the time focusing on each issue such that each may
be resolved.=C2=A0 It helps for the authors to have proposals for each, and
it's not unreasonable to ask for authors and others to come prepared
with their views as to how those issues should be resolved.=C2=A0 What is
unreasonable two weeks before a conference is to ask them to restructure
a document and address all issues as a prerequisite for discussion.

Eliot


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


  =20
------=_Part_1295467_1830821732.1540217564363
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


<=
span style=3D"font-family: "Helvetica Neue", "Segoe UI"=
, Helvetica, Arial, "Lucida Grande", sans-serif; font-size: 13px;=
" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1540215833636_59969">> What is unreasonable two weeks before =
a conference is to ask them to restructure a document and address all issues as a prerequi=
site for discussion.

Thank you, Eliot.   Mallory, I need to go to India i=
n 4 days to help them to increase their IETF participation.    &n=
bsp;A number of us get together in India before the Asian IETF.   =
; (Actually, any one who is interested in joining us in 2019, please contac=
t me offline.  We are happy to have you.)

I have a huge number of things to do before I le=
ave.

Frankly, I have nev=
er heard of this kind of objection in any other Working Group I have been i=
nvolved in at the IETF  / IRTF.   Most people in these circu=
mstances would be eager to discuss this draft.    Your objections=
 surprise me greatly.
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder<=
br>Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360
<=
div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1540215833636_59974">
  
 
 
  
 From=
: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
 To: Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org> <=
br>Cc: hrpc@irtf.org; Amel=
ia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org>
 Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 3:26 AM
 Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Not=
ification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
  
 

Hi,

On 22.10.18 11:51, Mallory Knodel wrote:
> I=
 am suggesting that the face to face meeting be productive and progress the=
 discussion. 

So am I. 

Let us put this in classic IETF terms.  P=
eople have raised issues (some
of them big ones) with the=
 draft, a'la Github issue tracking.  One could
then =
reasonably spend the time focusing on each issue such that each may
be resolved.  It helps for the authors to have proposals fo=
r each, and
it's not unreasonable to ask for authors and =
others to come prepared
with their views as to how those =
issues should be resolved.  What is
unreasonable two=
 weeks before a conference is to ask them to restructure
=
a document and address all issues as a prerequisite for discussion.


Eliot


___________=
____________________________________
hrpc mailing listhrpc@irtf.org
http=
s://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

 
 
  

------=_Part_1295467_1830821732.1540217564363--


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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:12:47 +0000 (UTC)
From: Mallory Knodel 
To: Nalini J Elkins 
Cc: Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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Thanks for chiming in, Nalini. It=E2=80=99s important to hear from the Aith=
ors on what will be the difference between this discussion and what progres=
s can be made, eg what would be discussed in Bangkok. Can you speak to that=
?

-M

----- Original Message -----
From: Nalini J Elkins 
To: Mallory Knodel , Amelia Andersdotter 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:04:26 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-=
00.txt

Mallory,
>If we can get a new version, I suggest we debate that newer version in Ban=
gkok or Prague, depending on the timeline.

There are only a few hours left before the submission deadline.=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0I do not believe that is enough time for a new version.
I think that given the amount of discussion on this topic, it would be very=
 surprising if the chairs did not want to have this topic on the agenda for=
 further discussion.=C2=A0Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

      From: Mallory Knodel 
 To: Amelia Andersdotter =20
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
 Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 2:30 AM
 Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter=
-00.txt
  =20
Thanks for these suggestions, Amelia. And to others on the list who have gi=
ven concrete feedback for how to improve the draft.

This feedback is not easy to fix and in some cases might require structural=
 changes from the authors.

I think while discussion has been sparked by the draft it would be best to =
see a new revised version based on these concrete suggestions before restar=
ting the debate in Bangkok. Without these changes we risk having to raise t=
he same points again in the meeting.

If we can get a new version, I suggest we debate that newer version in Bang=
kok or Prague, depending on the timeline.

-M

----- Original Message -----
From: Amelia Andersdotter 
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:14:36 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-=
00.txt

Hi all,

I have two comments:

1. The draft makes no distinction between "filtering" and "censorship".
While it seeks to establish that filtering can be done for morally valid
reasons, it does so by saying censorship is morally valid.

This is unlike most other rationalisations of filtering that I have
seen, which typically go along the lines of "it is not censorship to
filter child sexual abuse images, since it is not a human right to
express child sexual abuse images". If I could make a suggestion to the
drafters, it would be to keep separate censorship within the meaning of
human rights law (i.e. ensuring there is a distinction between
inhibiting expressions that would enjoy human rights protection and
inhibiting expressions that would not).

2. The draft contains no technical information so serve as a basis for
the evaluation of protocols. It references no technical mechanisms at
the IETF or the IRTF, or indeed any technology used for any filtering
anywhere. It merely establishes that the authors believe there are
morally valid censorship/filtering activities ongoing in different
context. One could imagine it would otherwise be interesting to
distinguish between DNS-based filtering, or software-implemented
filtering, or even plug-in-based filtering (such as some commonly used
ad-blockers), as well as the different methods of filtering that are
chosen by consumers, employers, service providers or governments for
different contexts. We could imagine a mapping of trade-offs, for
instance the trade-off between intercepting an encrypted website with a
warning message from the government, and having reliable encryption and
forwarding to protect users against phishing (essentially the same
issues that are being discussed in relation to captive portals).

While the deficiencies of the draft in terms of the 1st point makes it
objectionable to me as such unless it is changed, the deficiencies
pointed to in my 2nd comment could make the draft an actually useful
survey if they were remedied.

best regards,

Amelia


On 2018-10-18 05:49, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> All,
>
> We have posted a draft on filtering techniques.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Would appreci=
ate
> comments from the group.
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Human Rights Considerations of I=
nternet Filtering
> Document date:=C2=A0 2018-10-17
> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16
> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elk=
ins-hrpc-ifilter-00
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
>
>
> Abstract:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document is a survey of the filtering of content.=C2=A0=
 The focus is
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Decla=
ration of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Human Rights" which is one of the foundational documents for=
 HRPC.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The recent years have seen an increase in content filtering =
for a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0variety of reasons including to further the aims of governme=
nts who
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0wish to maintain their rule and suppress dissent but also to=
 enforce
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law.=C2=
=A0 Filters
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0also exist for security (botnets, malware etc.), user-define=
d
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0policies (parental control, corporate blocking of social net=
works
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyrighted=
 material
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0and other reasons. This document is based on several real wo=
rld
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0considerations: the existence of national and regional sover=
eignty,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content Distribution N=
etworks
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0(CDNs) that provide connectivity and content hosting service=
s, Over-
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that pl=
ay a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0disproportionate role in capturing the attention and "eyebal=
ls" of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0many of the users of the Internet.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
> .
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> --=20
> Thanks,
> Nalini Elkins
> President
> Enterprise Data Center Operators
> www.e-dco.com 
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


  =20


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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:30:58 +0000 (UTC)
From: Nalini J Elkins 
Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins 
To: Mallory Knodel 
Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" ,  Amelia Andersdotter 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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>Thanks for chiming in, Nalini. It=E2=80=99s important to hear from the Ait=
hors on what will be the difference between this discussion and what progre=
ss can be made, eg what would be discussed in Bangkok. Can you speak to tha=
t?
Yes, sorry, it is 7:00am my time here.=C2=A0 You guys were busy while I was=
 sleeping away!=C2=A0 =C2=A0Got a bit behind on the email chain here.
Most of what we can do will be while I am sitting at airports in the next t=
wo weeks, so I am trying to be conservative with what we can accomplish.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0(I also have another actual protocol draft to finish for IPPM!)=
=C2=A0
I think what we can do is:
-=C2=A0 Consolidate the comments into groups.
I really don't think we can do much else.=C2=A0 =C2=A0There are structural =
comments, content comments, and many others.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
You know, f2f is really very important.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I think it gives people=
 a chance to try to understand what the other is saying.=C2=A0 I would sugg=
est that we use the time at the group to try to reach some sort of common g=
round.

Quite a few people have said some very interesting things.=C2=A0 I need som=
e time to think and then the co-authors need to think it out together.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Then we all need to think together.=C2=A0 I am not good with rush=
ing to do things.=C2=A0 It has not worked well for me.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I need t=
o let things be in my mind for a while so I can reflect on them.
You know, in other IETF / IRTF WGs I am involved in, it is totally OK not t=
o have all your i's dotted and t's crossed.=C2=A0 I trust the community.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0We (the co-authors) need your help.=C2=A0 =C2=A0When you talk to =
each other in a trusting, open, vulnerable way, ideas come out and ways for=
ward that you could never have thought of on your own.=C2=A0 I have seen it=
 over and over again in different parts of the IETF.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
My suggestion would be to think and work together and see where we get to.=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have seen many quite thoughtful and productive comments on t=
his topic.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thank you, everyone!=C2=A0Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

      From: Mallory Knodel 
 To: Nalini J Elkins =20
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org; Amelia Andersdotter 
 Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 7:13 AM
 Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter=
-00.txt
  =20
Thanks for chiming in, Nalini. It=E2=80=99s important to hear from the Aith=
ors on what will be the difference between this discussion and what progres=
s can be made, eg what would be discussed in Bangkok. Can you speak to that=
?

-M

----- Original Message -----
From: Nalini J Elkins 
To: Mallory Knodel , Amelia Andersdotter 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:04:26 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-=
00.txt

Mallory,
>If we can get a new version, I suggest we debate that newer version in Ban=
gkok or Prague, depending on the timeline.

There are only a few hours left before the submission deadline.=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0I do not believe that is enough time for a new version.
I think that given the amount of discussion on this topic, it would be very=
 surprising if the chairs did not want to have this topic on the agenda for=
 further discussion.=C2=A0Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Mallory Knodel 
 To: Amelia Andersdotter =20
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
 Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 2:30 AM
 Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter=
-00.txt
=C2=A0=20
Thanks for these suggestions, Amelia. And to others on the list who have gi=
ven concrete feedback for how to improve the draft.

This feedback is not easy to fix and in some cases might require structural=
 changes from the authors.

I think while discussion has been sparked by the draft it would be best to =
see a new revised version based on these concrete suggestions before restar=
ting the debate in Bangkok. Without these changes we risk having to raise t=
he same points again in the meeting.

If we can get a new version, I suggest we debate that newer version in Bang=
kok or Prague, depending on the timeline.

-M

----- Original Message -----
From: Amelia Andersdotter 
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:14:36 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-=
00.txt

Hi all,

I have two comments:

1. The draft makes no distinction between "filtering" and "censorship".
While it seeks to establish that filtering can be done for morally valid
reasons, it does so by saying censorship is morally valid.

This is unlike most other rationalisations of filtering that I have
seen, which typically go along the lines of "it is not censorship to
filter child sexual abuse images, since it is not a human right to
express child sexual abuse images". If I could make a suggestion to the
drafters, it would be to keep separate censorship within the meaning of
human rights law (i.e. ensuring there is a distinction between
inhibiting expressions that would enjoy human rights protection and
inhibiting expressions that would not).

2. The draft contains no technical information so serve as a basis for
the evaluation of protocols. It references no technical mechanisms at
the IETF or the IRTF, or indeed any technology used for any filtering
anywhere. It merely establishes that the authors believe there are
morally valid censorship/filtering activities ongoing in different
context. One could imagine it would otherwise be interesting to
distinguish between DNS-based filtering, or software-implemented
filtering, or even plug-in-based filtering (such as some commonly used
ad-blockers), as well as the different methods of filtering that are
chosen by consumers, employers, service providers or governments for
different contexts. We could imagine a mapping of trade-offs, for
instance the trade-off between intercepting an encrypted website with a
warning message from the government, and having reliable encryption and
forwarding to protect users against phishing (essentially the same
issues that are being discussed in relation to captive portals).

While the deficiencies of the draft in terms of the 1st point makes it
objectionable to me as such unless it is changed, the deficiencies
pointed to in my 2nd comment could make the draft an actually useful
survey if they were remedied.

best regards,

Amelia


On 2018-10-18 05:49, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> All,
>
> We have posted a draft on filtering techniques.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Would appreci=
ate
> comments from the group.
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Human Rights Considerations of I=
nternet Filtering
> Document date:=C2=A0 2018-10-17
> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16
> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elk=
ins-hrpc-ifilter-00
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
>
>
> Abstract:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document is a survey of the filtering of content.=C2=A0=
 The focus is
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Decla=
ration of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Human Rights" which is one of the foundational documents for=
 HRPC.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The recent years have seen an increase in content filtering =
for a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0variety of reasons including to further the aims of governme=
nts who
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0wish to maintain their rule and suppress dissent but also to=
 enforce
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law.=C2=
=A0 Filters
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0also exist for security (botnets, malware etc.), user-define=
d
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0policies (parental control, corporate blocking of social net=
works
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyrighted=
 material
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0and other reasons. This document is based on several real wo=
rld
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0considerations: the existence of national and regional sover=
eignty,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content Distribution N=
etworks
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0(CDNs) that provide connectivity and content hosting service=
s, Over-
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that pl=
ay a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0disproportionate role in capturing the attention and "eyebal=
ls" of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0many of the users of the Internet.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
> .
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> --=20
> Thanks,
> Nalini Elkins
> President
> Enterprise Data Center Operators
> www.e-dco.com 
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


=C2=A0=20

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


  =20
------=_Part_1313505_2053369158.1540218658823
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


>Thanks for chiming in, Nal=
ini. It=E2=80=99s important to hear from the Aithors on what will be the di=
fference between this discussion and what progress can be made, eg what wou=
ld be discussed in Bangkok. Can you speak to that?

Yes, sorry, it is 7:00am my time =
here.  You guys were busy while I was sleeping away!   Got a=
 bit behind on the email chain here.

Most of what we can do will be while I am sitting at airports=
 in the next two weeks, so I am trying to be conservative with what we can =
accomplish.   (I also have another actual protocol draft to finis=
h for IPPM!) 

I think what we can do is:

-  Consolidate the comments into groups.<=
/span>

I really don't think we=
 can do much else.   There are structural comments, content comme=
nts, and many others.    

You know, f2f is really very important.   I thi=
nk it gives people a chance to try to understand what the other is saying.&=
nbsp; I would suggest that we use the time at the group to try to reach som=
e sort of common ground.

<=
/span>
Quite a few =
people have said some very interesting things.  I need some time to th=
ink and then the co-authors need to think it out together.   Then=
 we all need to think together.  I am not good with rushing to do thin=
gs.  It has not worked well for me.   I need to let things b=
e in my mind for a while so I can reflect on them.

You know, in other IETF / IRTF WGs I am involved in, it is=
 totally OK not to have all your i's dotted and t's crossed.  I trust =
the community.   We (the co-authors) need your help.   =
When you talk to each other in a trusting, open, vulnerable way, ideas come=
 out and ways forward that you could never have thought of on your own.&nbs=
p; I have seen it over and over again in different parts of the IETF. =
   

My suggestion would =
be to think and work together and see where we get to.   I have s=
een many quite thoughtful and productive comments on this topic.  &nbs=
p;Thank you, everyone!
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Fo=
under
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360<=
/div>


  <=
div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, =
sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> 
  
 From: Mallory Knodel <mallory=
@article19.org>
 To:=
 Nalini J Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org; Amelia Andersdotter =
<amelia@article19.org>
 Sent=
: Monday, October 22, 2018 7:13 AM
 Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for dr=
aft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
  
 

Thanks for chiming in, Nalini. It=E2=80=99s impo=
rtant to hear from the Aithors on what will be the difference between this =
discussion and what progress can be made, eg what would be discussed in Ban=
gkok. Can you speak to that?

-M

----- Original Message -----
From: Nalini J Elkins <=
;nalini.elkins@insidethestack.c=
om>
To: Mallory Knodel <m=
allory@article19.org>, Amelia Andersdotter <a=
melia@article19.org>
Cc: hrpc@irtf.orgSent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:04:26 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifil=
ter-00.txt

Mallory,
=
>If we can get a new version, I suggest we debate that newer version in =
Bangkok or Prague, depending on the timeline.

There are only a few hours left before the submission deadline.&n=
bsp;  I do not believe that is enough time for a new version.
I think that given the amount of discussion on this topic, it wou=
ld be very surprising if the chairs did not want to have this topic on the =
agenda for further discussion. Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Ins=
ide Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

     =
 From: Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org&g=
t;
 To: Amelia Andersdotter <ameli=
a@article19.org> 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
 Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 2:30 AM
 Su=
bject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00=
.txt
   
Thanks for these suggesti=
ons, Amelia. And to others on the list who have given concrete feedback for=
 how to improve the draft.

This feedba=
ck is not easy to fix and in some cases might require structural changes fr=
om the authors.

I think while discussi=
on has been sparked by the draft it would be best to see a new revised vers=
ion based on these concrete suggestions before restarting the debate in Ban=
gkok. Without these changes we risk having to raise the same points again i=
n the meeting.

If we can get a new ver=
sion, I suggest we debate that newer version in Bangkok or Prague, dependin=
g on the timeline.

-M

----- Original Message -----
From: A=
melia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Mon, 22=
 Oct 2018 09:14:36 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Ve=
rsion Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
<=
br clear=3D"none">Hi all,

I have two c=
omments:

1. The draft makes no distinc=
tion between "filtering" and "censorship".
While it seeks=
 to establish that filtering can be done for morally valid
reasons, it does so by saying censorship is morally valid.

This is unlike most other rationalisations of filter=
ing that I have
seen, which typically go along the lines =
of "it is not censorship to
filter child sexual abuse ima=
ges, since it is not a human right to
express child sexua=
l abuse images". If I could make a suggestion to the
draf=
ters, it would be to keep separate censorship within the meaning of
human rights law (i.e. ensuring there is a distinction betweeninhibiting expressions that would enjoy human rights prote=
ction and
inhibiting expressions that would not).

2. The draft contains no technical informatio=
n so serve as a basis for
the evaluation of protocols. It=
 references no technical mechanisms at
the IETF or the IR=
TF, or indeed any technology used for any filtering
anywh=
ere. It merely establishes that the authors believe there are
morally valid censorship/filtering activities ongoing in different
context. One could imagine it would otherwise be interesting=
 to
distinguish between DNS-based filtering, or software-=
implemented
filtering, or even plug-in-based filtering (s=
uch as some commonly used
ad-blockers), as well as the di=
fferent methods of filtering that are
chosen by consumers=
, employers, service providers or governments for
differe=
nt contexts. We could imagine a mapping of trade-offs, for
instance the trade-off between intercepting an encrypted website with awarning message from the government, and having reliable e=
ncryption and
forwarding to protect users against phishin=
g (essentially the same
issues that are being discussed i=
n relation to captive portals).

While =
the deficiencies of the draft in terms of the 1st point makes it
objectionable to me as such unless it is changed, the deficiencie=
s
pointed to in my 2nd comment could make the draft an ac=
tually useful
survey if they were remedied.

best regards,

=
Amelia


On 2018-10-1=
8 05:49, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> All,
>
> We have posted a draft on filtering techniqu=
es.   Would appreciate
> comments from the g=
roup.
>
>
><=
br clear=3D"none">>
> A new version of I-D, draft-e=
lkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> has been successfully subm=
itted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the
> IETF reposi=
tory.
>
> Name:    &nbs=
p;      draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
> Rev=
ision:       00
> Title:  &nb=
sp;       Human Rights Considerations of Internet Filtering<=
br clear=3D"none">> Document date:  2018-10-17
&g=
t; Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          16
> URL:           
>=
 https://www.ietf.org/internet-draf=
ts/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> Status: =
;      
>  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00
> Htmlized:     
>  =
;https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dr=
aft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
>
>> Abstract:
>    This do=
cument is a survey of the filtering of content.  The focus is
>    on the human rights involved as cited in the Un=
iversal Declaration of
>    Human Rights" wh=
ich is one of the foundational documents for HRPC.
> &=
nbsp;  The recent years have seen an increase in content filtering for=
 a
>    variety of reasons including to furt=
her the aims of governments who
>    wish to=
 maintain their rule and suppress dissent but also to enforce
>    cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the=
 law.  Filters
>    also exist for secu=
rity (botnets, malware etc.), user-defined
>   &n=
bsp;policies (parental control, corporate blocking of social networks
>    during work time, etc.), spam control, uploa=
d of copyrighted material
>    and other rea=
sons. This document is based on several real world
> &=
nbsp;  considerations: the existence of national and regional sovereig=
nty,
>    Internet Service Providers (ISPs) =
and Content Distribution Networks
>    (CDNs=
) that provide connectivity and content hosting services, Over-
>    the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDP=
s) that play a
>    disproportionate role in=
 capturing the attention and "eyeballs" of
>   &n=
bsp;many of the users of the Internet.
>
>
>
>
&=
gt; Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized vers=
ion and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
> <http://too=
ls.ietf.org/>.
>
> The IET=
F Secretariat
>
>
>
> -- 
> Thanks,
> Nalini Elkins
> President
> Enterprise Data Center Operators
> www.e-dco=
.com <http://www.e-dco.com/>
>
>=
;
>
>
> ____=
___________________________________________
> hrpc mai=
ling list
> hrpc@irtf.org
=
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


-- 
Ameli=
a Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme
ARTICLE19
www.article1=
9.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A=
6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
hrpc =
mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.orghttps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


   

______________________________________________=
_
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org=

https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/h=
rpc


 
 
  
<=
/div>
------=_Part_1313505_2053369158.1540218658823--


From nobody Mon Oct 22 07:45:01 2018
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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:44:54 +0000 (UTC)
From: Mallory Knodel 
To: hrpc 
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Hi all,

As a way to make coherent and constructive a prior conversation in HRPC and the ietf@ list there is a new draft on oppressive terminology. 

Thanks to folks who helped with feedback on this document. And thanks in advance for constructive discussion on this list about it:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-knodel-terminology/

-Mallory

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Niels ten Oever , Mallory Knodel 
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 10:54:17 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-knodel-terminology-00.txt


A new version of I-D, draft-knodel-terminology-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Niels ten Oever and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-knodel-terminology
Revision:	00
Title:		Terminology, Power and Oppressive Language
Document date:	2018-10-22
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		10
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-knodel-terminology-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-knodel-terminology/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-knodel-terminology-00
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-knodel-terminology


Abstract:
   This document argues for and describes alternatives that shift
   specific language conventions used by RFC Authors and RFC Editors to
   avoid oppressive terminology in the technical documentation of the
   RFC series.  Specifically, this document details two sets of terms
   that are normalised on the technical level but oppressive on a
   societal level.  First, arguments are presented for why any
   oppressive terms should be avoided by the IETF/IRTF.  Second, problem
   statements for both sets of terms are presented and alternatives are
   proposed.  There is a third section on additional considerations and
   general action points to address the RFC series, past and future.
   Lastly, a summary of recommendations is presented.
                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



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From: Beatrice Martini 
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 19:05:04 +0200
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To: Hrpc 
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Subject: [hrpc] Human Rights Review of QUIC
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Hello,

As you might remember from previous HRPC Research Group updates at IETF102
and on this list, together with Niels I have been working on a Human Rights
Review of QUIC.

We just published it as an Internet Draft, as a way to make it more easy to
read and share, and are glad to share it with you all. Please find it at:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-martini-hrpc-quichr-00

As you can also read in the "Methodology and Process" section of the
document, we conducted our review analyzing drafts through the perspective
of the Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol Considerations outlined in
{{RFC8280}}, as well as making a series of interviews with QUIC Working
Group chairs, document authors and participants.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to our work and has been so gracious
with their time!

Best,
Beatrice & Niels

--0000000000002ec28c0578d44140
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Hello,

As you might remember from =
previous HRPC Research Group updates at IETF102 and on this list, together =
with Niels I have been working on a Human Rights Review of QUIC.

We =
just published it as an Internet Draft, as a way to make it more easy to re=
ad and share, and are glad to share it with you all. Please find it at:
=

ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-martini-hrpc-quichr-00

As you ca=
n also read in the "Methodology and Process" section of the docum=
ent, we conducted our review analyzing drafts through the perspective of th=
e Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol Considerations outlined in {{RFC8280=
}}, as well as making a series of interviews with QUIC Working Group chairs=
, document authors and participants.

Thanks to everyone who contribu=
ted to our work and has been so gracious with their time!

Best,
B=
eatrice & Niels


--0000000000002ec28c0578d44140--


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To: Vittorio Bertola , hrpc@irtf.org
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From: Amelia Andersdotter 
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Organization: ARTICLE19
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On 2018-10-22 15:08, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
>> Il 22 ottobre 2018 alle 11.13 Amelia Andersdotter  ha scritto:
>>
>> Nothing in principle has stopped ISPs, especially large ISPs in the EU=
,
>> from taking a lead on privacy-friendly DNS. In fact, as they themselve=
s
>> frequently and verbosely point out, they are under some of the stronge=
st
>> legal obligations in the world to do so. They just don't wanna,=20
> You do have a point here, and this will be a very positive effect of Do=
H: create the pressure necessary for ISPs to spend the money to update th=
eir DNS service to DoH/DoT (though I stress that as long as the IETF does=
 not provide a standard way for them to publish the availability of such =
service, like DHCP does for unencrypted DNS resolvers, users will still n=
ot be available to use it).
>
> However, this was mostly not about "we don't like privacy", but rather =
that the network path between the user's device and the ISP's resolver on=
ly traverses the ISP's network, so if the ISP keeps their network secure,=
 the actual risk of interception is very low or non-existent. This is why=
 transport security is a much bigger concern in an OTT architecture than =
it is in traditional DNS resolution services. So I think it was a technic=
al judgement, not an ethical one.

I have not seen these market entities lift any fingers to leverage any
opportunity to improve user privacy or user empowerment, but I have
consistently seen them whine both about competitors' efforts and
legislators' efforts to achieve such improvements.

I would like to say it was different. But ok, I thought I outlined an
idea for how adjustments can be made to current developments, in a way
which builds on the good work which unfortunately has not been done
previously (in the form of DoH or any other form). If one does not lead,
one risks having to follow.

>> and now
>> someone else is doing something that actually does create better
>> transparency (and therefore better consumer empowerment),
> How does DoH create "better transparency"? Maybe I don't get what you m=
ean by transparency in this context.

It shifts visibility to user-land in the browser. It creates visibility
of choices in a way that wasn't possible previously.

>> I find this very frustrating: OTTs, at the end of the day, are gaining=
 a
>> lot of commercial ground because they're actually trying to do good
>> stuff (broadly, in this context, implying "transparency towards
>> consumers"). Nothing stops anyone else from doing good stuff too!
> Are you really serious? I mean, do you really think that these companie=
s strive to "don't be evil"?=20

I believe there's a bunch of participants in IETF standardisation
efforts that are better able to leverage increasing demands for privacy
and security for their own commercial ends than non-OTTs have been. It
doesn't need to be selfless or altruistic, it just needs to be more
efficient and credible.

In this framing, I believe it's more efficient and credible what they
are doing.

best regards,

Amelia


> They simply have found a business model for which they need to gather a=
s much data as posisble about each human being on the planet; DNS queries=
 are just one more dataset that they can put their hands upon, grind it i=
nto AI algorithms and turn it into advertising, customization and data fl=
ow revenues. I am not attaching moral judgements on this, but I also don'=
t think it's useful to design standards and architectures by saying that =
certain business models are better than others.
>
> Regards,


--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55



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To: Amelia Andersdotter , Vittorio Bertola , hrpc@irtf.org
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com>  <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>  <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie> <1255848520.19204.1540136665602@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <08bc31ba-8ef1-4509-2ce8-02864a764d14@article19.org> <1064961805.21483.1540213688399@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <35310b9b-ee09-7990-145c-a3ce2ac97bb6@article19.org>
From: Eliot Lear 
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From: Eliot Lear 
To: Amelia Andersdotter ,
 Vittorio Bertola , hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for
 draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>
 
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On 22.10.18 19:16, Amelia Andersdotter wrote:
> [DoH] shifts visibility to user-land in the browser. It creates visibil=
ity
> of choices in a way that wasn't possible previously.

Technically?=C2=A0 Sure.=C2=A0 As a matter of practice?=C2=A0 Maybe.=C2=A0=
 It will depend on
whether the user has the ability to make good choices about who he or
she trusts.=C2=A0 That, to me, is a research question.

Eliot


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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 20:42:29 +0000 (UTC)
From: Mark Perkins 
To: Amelia Andersdotter ,  Mallory Knodel 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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 Amelia

I think that the current distinctions between 'filtering' and 'censorship' =
are in fact semantic hair-splitting.

"filter child sexual abuse images, since it is not a human right to express=
 child sexual abuse images"

Clearly, such filtering is censorship - the question is whether it is justi=
fiable from a Human Rights (UDHR, ICCPR, ICESCR). Plus, most censorship is =
justified by states on the exceptions within these Human Rights treaties - =
it is just that others disagree with the justification.

A more useful distinction is that of 'content neutral' filtering. As I unde=
rstand this, it is where the blocking of the transmission of content is jus=
tified on grounds other than the content itself. For example, advertising p=
anels on the pavements (side-walks) outside shops being illegal, no matter =
what their content; graffiti on buildings being illegal, no matter their co=
ntent or intrinsic worth.

Therefore, I suggest a 2 way split:=20

Filtering =3D content neutral blocking
Censorship =3D blocking based on content

Within the latter, we could indicate (near) universal agreement on justifed=
 censorship -=C2=A0 eg. child pornography, incitement to direct racial viol=
ence (illegal even in US). Not satifactory, perhaps - but at least a lowest=
 common denominator.

Regards

Mark P.


=20

    On Monday, October 22, 2018, 8:30:11 PM GMT+11, Mallory Knodel  wrote: =20
=20
 Thanks for these suggestions, Amelia. And to others on the list who have g=
iven concrete feedback for how to improve the draft.

This feedback is not easy to fix and in some cases might require structural=
 changes from the authors.

I think while discussion has been sparked by the draft it would be best to =
see a new revised version based on these concrete suggestions before restar=
ting the debate in Bangkok. Without these changes we risk having to raise t=
he same points again in the meeting.

If we can get a new version, I suggest we debate that newer version in Bang=
kok or Prague, depending on the timeline.

-M

----- Original Message -----
From: Amelia Andersdotter 
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:14:36 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-=
00.txt

Hi all,

I have two comments:

1. The draft makes no distinction between "filtering" and "censorship".
While it seeks to establish that filtering can be done for morally valid
reasons, it does so by saying censorship is morally valid.

This is unlike most other rationalisations of filtering that I have
seen, which typically go along the lines of "it is not censorship to
filter child sexual abuse images, since it is not a human right to
express child sexual abuse images". If I could make a suggestion to the
drafters, it would be to keep separate censorship within the meaning of
human rights law (i.e. ensuring there is a distinction between
inhibiting expressions that would enjoy human rights protection and
inhibiting expressions that would not).

2. The draft contains no technical information so serve as a basis for
the evaluation of protocols. It references no technical mechanisms at
the IETF or the IRTF, or indeed any technology used for any filtering
anywhere. It merely establishes that the authors believe there are
morally valid censorship/filtering activities ongoing in different
context. One could imagine it would otherwise be interesting to
distinguish between DNS-based filtering, or software-implemented
filtering, or even plug-in-based filtering (such as some commonly used
ad-blockers), as well as the different methods of filtering that are
chosen by consumers, employers, service providers or governments for
different contexts. We could imagine a mapping of trade-offs, for
instance the trade-off between intercepting an encrypted website with a
warning message from the government, and having reliable encryption and
forwarding to protect users against phishing (essentially the same
issues that are being discussed in relation to captive portals).

While the deficiencies of the draft in terms of the 1st point makes it
objectionable to me as such unless it is changed, the deficiencies
pointed to in my 2nd comment could make the draft an actually useful
survey if they were remedied.

best regards,

Amelia


On 2018-10-18 05:49, Nalini J Elkins wrote:
> All,
>
> We have posted a draft on filtering techniques.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Would appreci=
ate
> comments from the group.
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Human Rights Considerations of I=
nternet Filtering
> Document date:=C2=A0 2018-10-17
> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16
> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elk=
ins-hrpc-ifilter-00
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
>
>
> Abstract:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document is a survey of the filtering of content.=C2=A0=
 The focus is
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Decla=
ration of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Human Rights" which is one of the foundational documents for=
 HRPC.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The recent years have seen an increase in content filtering =
for a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0variety of reasons including to further the aims of governme=
nts who
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0wish to maintain their rule and suppress dissent but also to=
 enforce
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law.=C2=
=A0 Filters
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0also exist for security (botnets, malware etc.), user-define=
d
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0policies (parental control, corporate blocking of social net=
works
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyrighted=
 material
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0and other reasons. This document is based on several real wo=
rld
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0considerations: the existence of national and regional sover=
eignty,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content Distribution N=
etworks
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0(CDNs) that provide connectivity and content hosting service=
s, Over-
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that pl=
ay a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0disproportionate role in capturing the attention and "eyebal=
ls" of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0many of the users of the Internet.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
> .
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> --=20
> Thanks,
> Nalini Elkins
> President
> Enterprise Data Center Operators
> www.e-dco.com 
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
 =20
------=_Part_14293212_1645625457.1540240949989
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


 Amelia

I think that the current distinctions betw=
een 'filtering' and 'censorship' are in fact semantic hair-splitting.
"filter child sexual abuse images, since it is not a human right to expre=
ss child sexual abuse images"

Clearly, such filtering is censorship =
- the question is whether it is justifiable from a Human Rights (UDHR, ICCP=
R, ICESCR). Plus, most censorship is justified by states on the exceptions =
within these Human Rights treaties - it is just that others disagree with t=
he justification.

A more useful distinction is that of 'content neut=
ral' filtering. As I understand this, it is where the blocking of the trans=
mission of content is justified on grounds other than the content itself. F=
or example, advertising panels on the pavements (side-walks) outside shops =
being illegal, no matter what their content; graffiti on buildings being il=
legal, no matter their content or intrinsic worth.

Therefore, I sugg=
est a 2 way split: 

Filtering =3D content neutral blocking
Censor=
ship =3D blocking based on content

Within the latter, we could indic=
ate (near) universal agreement on justifed censorship -  eg. child por=
nography, incitement to direct racial violence (illegal even in US). Not sa=
tifactory, perhaps - but at least a lowest common denominator.

Regar=
ds

Mark P.



        



       =20
        

            

               =20
                

                    On Monday, October 22, 2018, 8:30:11 PM GMT+11, Mallory=
 Knodel <mallory@article19.org> wrote:
                

                


                


                
Thanks for these suggestions, Amelia.=
 And to others on the list who have given concrete feedback for how to impr=
ove the draft.

This feedback is not ea=
sy to fix and in some cases might require structural changes from the autho=
rs.

I think while discussion has been =
sparked by the draft it would be best to see a new revised version based on=
 these concrete suggestions before restarting the debate in Bangkok. Withou=
t these changes we risk having to raise the same points again in the meetin=
g.

If we can get a new version, I sugg=
est we debate that newer version in Bangkok or Prague, depending on the tim=
eline.

-M

----- Original Message -----
From: Amelia Ander=
sdotter <amelia@article19.org>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 0=
9:14:36 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notif=
ication for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt

Hi all,

I have two comments:
1. The draft makes no distinction betwee=
n "filtering" and "censorship".
While it seeks to establi=
sh that filtering can be done for morally valid
reasons, =
it does so by saying censorship is morally valid.

This is unlike most other rationalisations of filtering that I =
have
seen, which typically go along the lines of "it is n=
ot censorship to
filter child sexual abuse images, since =
it is not a human right to
express child sexual abuse ima=
ges". If I could make a suggestion to the
drafters, it wo=
uld be to keep separate censorship within the meaning of
=
human rights law (i.e. ensuring there is a distinction between
inhibiting expressions that would enjoy human rights protection andinhibiting expressions that would not).
=

2. The draft contains no technical information so serve =
as a basis for
the evaluation of protocols. It references=
 no technical mechanisms at
the IETF or the IRTF, or inde=
ed any technology used for any filtering
anywhere. It mer=
ely establishes that the authors believe there are
morall=
y valid censorship/filtering activities ongoing in different
context. One could imagine it would otherwise be interesting to
distinguish between DNS-based filtering, or software-implemented=

filtering, or even plug-in-based filtering (such as some=
 commonly used
ad-blockers), as well as the different met=
hods of filtering that are
chosen by consumers, employers=
, service providers or governments for
different contexts=
. We could imagine a mapping of trade-offs, for
instance =
the trade-off between intercepting an encrypted website with a
warning message from the government, and having reliable encryption a=
nd
forwarding to protect users against phishing (essentia=
lly the same
issues that are being discussed in relation =
to captive portals).

While the deficie=
ncies of the draft in terms of the 1st point makes it
obj=
ectionable to me as such unless it is changed, the deficiencies
pointed to in my 2nd comment could make the draft an actually useful=

survey if they were remedied.

best regards,

Amelia


On 2018-10-18 05:49, Nali=
ni J Elkins wrote:
> All,
>
> We have posted a draft on filtering techniques.  &nb=
sp;Would appreciate
> comments from the group.
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-hrpc-if=
ilter-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Nali=
ni Elkins and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:        &nb=
sp;  draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
> Revision:  =
     00
> Title:      &n=
bsp;   Human Rights Considerations of Internet Filtering
> Document date:  2018-10-17
> Group:&nbs=
p;         Individual Submission
>=
 Pages:          16
> URL:&nb=
sp;          
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elkin=
s-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
> Status:     =
;  
>  https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter/
=
> Htmlized:       https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00
>=
; Htmlized:     
>  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-hrpc=
-ifilter
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This document is a sur=
vey of the filtering of content.  The focus is
> =
   on the human rights involved as cited in the Universal Declara=
tion of
>    Human Rights" which is one of t=
he foundational documents for HRPC.
>    The=
 recent years have seen an increase in content filtering for a
>    variety of reasons including to further the aims of=
 governments who
>    wish to maintain their=
 rule and suppress dissent but also to enforce
>  =
;  cultural norms, human rights and compliance with the law.  Fil=
ters
>    also exist for security (botnets, =
malware etc.), user-defined
>    policies (p=
arental control, corporate blocking of social networks
&g=
t;    during work time, etc.), spam control, upload of copyrighte=
d material
>    and other reasons. This docu=
ment is based on several real world
>    con=
siderations: the existence of national and regional sovereignty,
>    Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and Content D=
istribution Networks
>    (CDNs) that provid=
e connectivity and content hosting services, Over-
> &=
nbsp;  the-top (OTTs) and Content Delivery Platforms (CDPs) that play =
a
>    disproportionate role in capturing th=
e attention and "eyeballs" of
>    many of t=
he users of the Internet.
>
>
>
>
> Please no=
te that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
=
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff =
are available at tools.ietf.org
> <http://tools.ietf.org/<=
/a>>.
>
> The IETF Secretariat=

>
>
>
> -- 
> Thanks,
>=
 Nalini Elkins
> President
> Ente=
rprise Data Center Operators
> www.e-dco.com <http://www.e-=
dco.com/>
>
>
>
>
> __________________=
_____________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


-- 
Amelia Andersdotter<=
br clear=3D"none">Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B=
4E8 0B55

<=
br clear=3D"none">
______________________________________=
_________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@=
irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/hrpc

______________________=
_________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irt=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

            

        

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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 23:56:54 +0200 (CEST)
From: Vittorio Bertola 
To: Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org
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> Il 22 ottobre 2018 alle 19.16 Amelia Andersdotter  ha scritto:
>
> > How does DoH create "better transparency"? Maybe I don't get what you mean by transparency in this context.
> 
> It shifts visibility to user-land in the browser. It creates visibility of choices in a way that wasn't possible previously.

Er, which choices? In the current consumer DNS resolution architecture, you can set your name server at once for all your applications. You get the one suggested by your network, but you can still change and set it in a second to 8.8.8.8 or whatever else, and with DNS-over-TLS (or even DoH deployed in a proper way) no one can prevent that choice; and while it's not a possibility as easy and widely known as it could be, we have 30 years of online guides and user experience in learning how to do it, and estimates are that about one fourth of the users is using a non-local resolver.

In the new world of DoH, you only get from your browser the message in the attached screenshot:

"Mozilla is working to improve privacy and security on the web. We are conducting studies that send encrypted DNS requests to Cloudflare, a secure, cloud-based service. [Learn more] [Disable DNS studies] [Ok, got it]".

This is for the study phase where they only duplicate the queries, so I hope that when the system DNS gets actually disabled the message will be more informative. Yet, what kind of choice is this? It isn't asking whether the user would like to use their local DNS or Cloudflare's. There is not even a question in the sentence. It more or less says: we're giving you privacy and security [Ok] [No I want to be insecure].

This does not look like a choice, nor like proper information about all the implications of such change. Moreover, each application will now pick the name server it likes, so if you don't like it, even if we assume that all software makers will actually give you a choice, you will have to replicate your choice dozens of times application by application. (Yet another example of how moving the DNS to the application layer is a terrible idea.)

> I believe there's a bunch of participants in IETF standardisation
> efforts that are better able to leverage increasing demands for privacy
> and security for their own commercial ends than non-OTTs have been. It
> doesn't need to be selfless or altruistic, it just needs to be more
> efficient and credible.
> 
> In this framing, I believe it's more efficient and credible what they are doing.
 
This is your opinion and I respect it, but I will note that pretty much everyone else in the privacy sphere seems quite concerned with the immense accumulation of data that the OTTs have built. In many cases, starting from Google and Facebook, almost the entirety of their revenues comes from targeted advertising and other data-based products, for which personal information is the raw material - so they have a direct economic incentive to erode the user's privacy and gather as much information as possible. ISPs usually have a more traditional business model in which they get paid directly by the end users for the services they give. I'm not making ethical judgements on which one is better, but one of the two models is basically undermined by privacy, so IMHO it's not credible that companies that have been offering so many "free" services in exchange for pervasive tracking and profiling of their users will now offer "free" DNS resolution without extracting any drop of value from the da
 ta they gain from it.

If you need a couple of very recent and unrelated examples of what I mean by "eroding privacy":
https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2018/09/23/why-im-leaving-chrome/
https://www.apnews.com/828aefab64d4411bac257a07c1af0ecb

Regards,
-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
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------=_Part_23614_2032846020.1540245414880--


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References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com>  <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>  <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie> <1255848520.19204.1540136665602@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <08bc31ba-8ef1-4509-2ce8-02864a764d14@article19.org> <1064961805.21483.1540213688399@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <35310b9b-ee09-7990-145c-a3ce2ac97bb6@article19.org> <2035518313.23615.1540245414882@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
From: Stephen Farrell 
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Message-ID: <8cff64e9-048e-b4ad-e5ea-90fa23bfa96c@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 23:49:34 +0100
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Vittorio Bertola ,
 Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: <8cff64e9-048e-b4ad-e5ea-90fa23bfa96c@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for
 draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>
 
 <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com>
 <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com>
 <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 
 <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>
 
 <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie>
 <1255848520.19204.1540136665602@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 <08bc31ba-8ef1-4509-2ce8-02864a764d14@article19.org>
 <1064961805.21483.1540213688399@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 <35310b9b-ee09-7990-145c-a3ce2ac97bb6@article19.org>
 <2035518313.23615.1540245414882@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
In-Reply-To: <2035518313.23615.1540245414882@appsuite.open-xchange.com>

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Just on a couple of points...

On 22/10/2018 22:56, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
> This does not look like a choice, nor like proper information about
> all the implications of such change. Moreover, each application will
> now pick the name server it likes, so if you don't like it, even if
> we assume that all software makers will actually give you a choice,
> you will have to replicate your choice dozens of times application by
> application. (Yet another example of how moving the DNS to the
> application layer is a terrible idea.)

That discussion would be better on the dprive list.

FWIW, my take is that people do not have real choice now
as to their DNS recursive, as they don't know such a thing
exists. The same is true with the FF/CF setup, i.e. there
is no real choice for real people either way.

Architecturally, both allow technical folks to change the
settings in more or less the same way. There are ops and
control differences between the ISP-chosen, and FF-chosen
DNS settings that are interesting but IMO off topic here.

>> I believe there's a bunch of participants in IETF standardisation=20
>> efforts that are better able to leverage increasing demands for
>> privacy and security for their own commercial ends than non-OTTs
>> have been. It doesn't need to be selfless or altruistic, it just
>> needs to be more efficient and credible.
>>=20
>> In this framing, I believe it's more efficient and credible what
>> they are doing.
>=20
> This is your opinion and I respect it, but I will note that pretty
> much everyone else in the privacy sphere seems quite concerned with
> the immense accumulation of data that the OTTs have built.=20

Calling them OTTs seems wrong to me. ISTM that all for-profit mega-
organisations pose a pervasive monitoring threat. That includes
the organisations I assume you mean by "OTTs," various well known
government agencies and others some of whom are also ISPs, others
of whom are in advertising or finance. It is I think the case that
IETF/IRTF participants have an easier time considering mitigating
the PM actions of government agencies than the other kinds of
organisation. That topic is, I think, germane for this list but
I think it'd be an error to try put the blame on "OTTs" or any
other functionally-defined subset of for-profits - seems to me
that it's mega-scale money making that causes the threat to be
significant, and much less the specifics of a business model.

Cheers,
S.

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From: Niels ten Oever 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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From: Niels ten Oever 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New
 Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
References: <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
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Eliot, you brought up several times that not a full range of rights has
been considered in doing human rights reviews and in discussions here.

Can I invite you to do a human rights review of a protocol to show how
we can take other considerations into account than we have not taken
into account thusfar?

I would also be very happy if you could help point out rights we have
missed in existing reviews. Maybe the most recent QUIC review could be
an interesting start?

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-martini-hrpc-quichr-00

Based on that we can improve the methodology as laid out in:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines (which is of
course an adaptation of RFC8280).

Best,

Niels

On 10/22/2018 04:01 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On 22.10.18 15:28, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
>> To be clear, though, I don't
>> disagree with the project of figuring out how a protocol design
>> impinges on human rights.=20
>=20
> Nor do I, by the way.=C2=A0 so long as the full set of rights is consid=
ered.
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>=20

--=20
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
Datactive Research Group
University of Amsterdam

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From: Eliot Lear 
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 Vittorio Bertola ,
 Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org
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Hi Stephen,


On 23.10.18 00:49, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> FWIW, my take is that people do not have real choice now
> as to their DNS recursive, as they don't know such a thing
> exists. The same is true with the FF/CF setup, i.e. there
> is no real choice for real people either way.
>
> Architecturally, both allow technical folks to change the
> settings in more or less the same way. There are ops and
> control differences between the ISP-chosen, and FF-chosen
> DNS settings that are interesting but IMO off topic here.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say as well, but the tie-in to HR is
this matter of REAL choice.=C2=A0 I think this might be a good question f=
or
someone like Angela Sasse at UCL or Serge Egelman at Berkeley or Ross
Anderson at Cambridge to consider.=C2=A0 It is a matter of providing the
invidual (at home) and the enterprise (at work) some *meaningful*
control over trust.

Eliot

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Hi Stephen,

    

    

    
On 23.10.18 00:49, Stephen Farrell
      wrote:

    

    

      
FWIW, my take is that people do not have real choice=
 now
as to their DNS recursive, as they don't know such a thing
exists. The same is true with the FF/CF setup, i.e. there
is no real choice for real people either way.

Architecturally, both allow technical folks to change the
settings in more or less the same way. There are ops and
control differences between the ISP-chosen, and FF-chosen
DNS settings that are interesting but IMO off topic here.

    

    

    Yes, this is what I was trying to say as well, but the tie-in to HR
    is this matter of REAL choice.=C2=A0 I think this might be a good
    question for someone like Angela Sasse at UCL or Serge Egelman at
    Berkeley or Ross Anderson at Cambridge to consider.=C2=A0 It is a mat=
ter
    of providing the invidual (at home) and the enterprise (at work)
    some meaningful control over trust.

    

    Eliot

  


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To: Eliot Lear , Vittorio Bertola , Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com>  <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>  <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <54546464-3222-6194-896d-585299c95dee@cs.tcd.ie> <1255848520.19204.1540136665602@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <08bc31ba-8ef1-4509-2ce8-02864a764d14@article19.org> <1064961805.21483.1540213688399@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <35310b9b-ee09-7990-145c-a3ce2ac97bb6@article19.org> <2035518313.23615.1540245414882@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <8cff64e9-048e-b4ad-e5ea-90fa23bfa96c@cs.tcd.ie> 
From: Stephen Farrell 
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:10:27 +0100
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Eliot Lear ,
 Vittorio Bertola ,
 Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for
 draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>
 
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Hiya,

On 23/10/2018 09:49, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Yes, this is what I was trying to say as well, but the tie-in to HR is
> this matter of REAL choice.=C2=A0 I think this might be a good question=
 for
> someone like Angela Sasse at UCL or Serge Egelman at Berkeley or Ross
> Anderson at Cambridge to consider.=C2=A0 It is a matter of providing th=
e
> invidual (at home) and the enterprise (at work) some *meaningful*
> control over trust.

I reckon "trust" is a term that's just likely to confuse here.
(Given that term is only meaningful if we say whom we're
considering trusting for what, I'm not sure if applies in a
case like this where a person has no idea any setting exists
at all.)

But fair enough - I buy that the general issue of developer
(or manufacturer or admin or deployer) chosen settings vs.
"real" user/owner choice is a topic that might be valid for
HRPC. In that case DoH is just one example. Another would be
sources for s/w updates, or sinks for sensor data, or the
set of CAs public keys in force. In all of those cases we do
seem to end up with architectures that allow technical folks
some level of control but that offer no choice at all to
people who don't know what's under the hood. I've no idea
myself if that could be avoided though but it is an aspect
that could be called out e.g. in reviews.

Cheers,
S.


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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:24:21 +0200 (CEST)
From: Vittorio Bertola 
To: Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org
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> Il 21 ottobre 2018 alle 6.14 Andrew Sullivan  ha scritto:
>
> considered by anyone; the IAB put out a pretty comprehensive
> discussion of the topic some while ago
> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7754). 

Thanks for the pointer, very interesting. Sorry for missing it, and I'd say it accomplishes at least part of what we meant to do with the first draft. It also allows to frame some of the problems better.

I agree that filtering at the endpoint, as recommended by that RFC, would be preferrable for a number of reasons, but it is too expensive and too hard to manage for many users, and impossible in a growing number of cases (e.g. the "dumb" IoT devices - we used to have one or two connected devices per home network, now we have dozens). Also, as the text points out, that is only possible with the cooperation of the end user, so it does not work in many security cases (e.g. when the user is a spammer or a bot) and in all law enforcement cases (where, by definition, the user wants to access illegal resources and actively tries to circumvent the filters). As network blocking in an encrypted world only works at the IP address level (which is the most prone to inaccuracy and overblocking, so IMHO it's the least desirable), we're left with the "rendezvous" blocking, i.e. DNS.

So perhaps we need to give up the pretense that blocking doesn't exist, and find ways to make it work "better", with more accuracy, with more transparency (I mean by making the filter apparent, the list of filtered content publicly available and the filtering devices available to everyone), and even with some form of authentication of the "party who sets blocking policies", and secure transmission of these policies to the technical operators that implement them.

> I think that, to get that party started, you'd need to define what
> "filtering is good" and "filtering is bad" means.  I am not sure I
> know how to do that, but I do encourate reading of RFC 7754 for an
> exploration of some effects on the Internet.

I think it's impossible to define in an universal way which cases are good and which ones are bad (though there could be an agreement on some cases). This is why I'd rather focus on making things more standard and transparent.

> > their governments will just start ordering the ISPs to block stuff at the IP address / routing level
> 
> "Start"?

In Europe, at least for what I know, that's not the common way to implement law/court-mandated blocking. Many years ago, it actually was a battle of the pro-rights side (me included) to convince governments that they should require blocks by hostnames (via DNS) rather than by IP addresses, as that would much reduce overblocking, even if that would also make it easier to circumvent blocks by using foreign resolvers, which was acceptable as it only affected a small minority of smarter users. I don't know what will happen if this balance is rediscussed.

Regards,
-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:34:28 +0200 (CEST)
From: Vittorio Bertola 
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> Il 23 ottobre 2018 alle 0.49 Stephen Farrell  =
ha scritto:
> =C2=A0
> That discussion would be better on the dprive list.

Happy to move it, though I think it's hard to separate the human rights iss=
ues from the privacy ones, the network security ones and even more. Perhaps=
 a first conclusion (in Bangkok?) would be whether this needs a specific no=
n-WG list or, if enough people are interested, a specific WG.
=C2=A0
Also we are mixing a general discussion on blocking and a specific discussi=
on on DoH (sorry about that).
=C2=A0
> FWIW, my take is that people do not have real choice now
> as to their DNS recursive, as they don't know such a thing
> exists. The same is true with the FF/CF setup, i.e. there
> is no real choice for real people either way.

So, regarding the DoH implementation part, perhaps the IETF (DPrive?) could=
 focus on ensuring that all the technical pieces are there to allow users t=
o discover all existing encrypted DNS providers and make informed choices.
=C2=A0
> > This is your opinion and I respect it, but I will note that pretty
> > much everyone else in the privacy sphere seems quite concerned with
> > the immense accumulation of data that the OTTs have built.
>
> Calling them OTTs seems wrong to me. ISTM that all for-profit mega-
> organisations pose a pervasive monitoring threat.

Yes, I agree with that. However, no telco has a truly global scale - at mos=
t, the biggest ones cover a few countries, often with several relatively in=
dependent companies. However, it's true that, given the success of the OTTs=
 (some of them in just a few years became the biggest and richest companies=
 the world has ever seen), everyone else is also moving into the "data econ=
omy" - and the data economy is inherently allergic to privacy. But in the e=
nd, I think we should write another RFC entitled "Centralization and consol=
idation are an attack" :-)
=C2=A0
Regards,
--=20

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com=20
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


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To: Vittorio Bertola , Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Vittorio Bertola ,
 Amelia Andersdotter , hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: <2a9c7e11-52df-0583-aee9-ff7265bfb667@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for
 draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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Hiya,

On 23/10/2018 10:34, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
>> Il 23 ottobre 2018 alle 0.49 Stephen Farrell
>>  ha scritto:
>>=20
>> That discussion would be better on the dprive list.
>=20
> Happy to move it, though I think it's hard to separate the human
> rights issues from the privacy ones, the network security ones and
> even more. Perhaps a first conclusion (in Bangkok?) would be whether
> this needs a specific non-WG list or, if enough people are
> interested, a specific WG.
>=20
> Also we are mixing a general discussion on blocking and a specific
> discussion on DoH (sorry about that).
>=20
>> FWIW, my take is that people do not have real choice now as to
>> their DNS recursive, as they don't know such a thing exists. The
>> same is true with the FF/CF setup, i.e. there is no real choice for
>> real people either way.
>=20
> So, regarding the DoH implementation part, perhaps the IETF (DPrive?)
> could focus on ensuring that all the technical pieces are there to
> allow users to discover all existing encrypted DNS providers and make
> informed choices.

Discovery of recursives doing DoH or DNS/TLS
seems to me to be a topic that'd be right in
scope for the dprive wg. I think it has been
mentioned before, but forget if there's been
substantive work on the topic. I would guess
there may be controversial aspects to that,
e.g., some may argue that allowing discovery
of all DoH services would merely allow censors
to block those and thereby defeat one purpose
of DoH. I do agree that depending on Sara to
maintain a list in stubby.yml [1] isn't that
optimal either;-)

   [1] https://github.com/getdnsapi/stubby/issues/79

To offer another, purely anecdotal, angle, DNS/TLS
kept my home n/w working fine a while back when my
ISP has a DNS outage, [2] so moving or adding points
of control can also improve resiliency. (OTOH, when
I first set up DNS/TLS on my home router, I broke the
TV service 72 hours later when the set top box DHCP
lease expired, and I'd buggered up a setting, so
this anecdote works both ways:-)

   [2]
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/we-apologise-for-the-inconvenience-=
eir-says-broadband-service-now-restored-37416857.html

>=20
>>> This is your opinion and I respect it, but I will note that
>>> pretty much everyone else in the privacy sphere seems quite
>>> concerned with the immense accumulation of data that the OTTs
>>> have built.
>>=20
>> Calling them OTTs seems wrong to me. ISTM that all for-profit
>> mega- organisations pose a pervasive monitoring threat.
>=20
> Yes, I agree with that. However, no telco has a truly global scale -
> at most, the biggest ones cover a few countries, often with several
> relatively independent companies.

=46rom the POV of a stub resolver though, telcos aren't
that different in that they often see a lot or all
of a given person's traffic and, for mobiles, location
data. And while I can (and do) choose to not use most
of the services of what you call OTTs (almost all of
the time), I do need some ISP. So I don't accept that
one kind of commercial entity is inherently the bad
one and another the good one - certainly the level of
goodness or badness doesn't logically depend on the
OSI layer at which they offer services.

> However, it's true that, given the
> success of the OTTs (some of them in just a few years became the
> biggest and richest companies the world has ever seen), everyone else
> is also moving into the "data economy" - and the data economy is
> inherently allergic to privacy.=20

So far, yes. The optimist in me hopes that that may
change as the advertising business model exhausts
itself (and gets regulated).

> But in the end, I think we should
> write another RFC entitled "Centralization and consolidation are an
> attack" :-)

I'll be interested in reading that draft,

Cheers,
S.


>=20
> Regards,
>=20

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To: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org
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From: Eliot Lear 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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From: Eliot Lear 
To: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New
 Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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Hi Niels,


On 23.10.18 00:54, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> Eliot, you brought up several times that not a full range of rights has=

> been considered in doing human rights reviews and in discussions here.
>
> Can I invite you to do a human rights review of a protocol to show how
> we can take other considerations into account than we have not taken
> into account thusfar?
>

I'll be happy to try at some point.=C2=A0 However, it is, as I've said
elsewhere, a difficult task; because some of the rights one seeks to
protect are themselves offended in the protection of others.=C2=A0 How do=
 we
reconcile that in our protocols?

Eliot


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From nobody Tue Oct 23 11:38:31 2018
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Would a work product of this group be to recommend that this group,
and the IETF, adopt the UN UDHR, ICCPR, and IECSCR as a framework?

Analogous to the IETF's IPR, Anti-Harrassment policies, etc.

My thoughts:

Although the discussion here is interesting, and you might be
surprised that I have read most every word of it and many suggested
supporting documents, I don't think this group is likely to produce
anything with the footprint or insights of those documents.

Given such a generally agreed upon policy recommendation or even
adoption these could form a reference framework to work forward from
as to their effects on protocols and technologies per se.

I think this is what Niels ten Oever has been championing, no?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@TheWorld.com             | http://www.TheWorld.com
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On October 23, 2018 at 11:24 vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com (Vittorio Bertola) wrote:
 > > Il 21 ottobre 2018 alle 6.14 Andrew Sullivan  ha scritto:
 > >
 > > considered by anyone; the IAB put out a pretty comprehensive
 > > discussion of the topic some while ago
 > > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7754). 
 > 
 > Thanks for the pointer, very interesting. Sorry for missing it, and I'd say it accomplishes at least part of what we meant to do with the first draft. It also allows to frame some of the problems better.
 > 
 > I agree that filtering at the endpoint, as recommended by that RFC,
 > would be preferrable for a number of reasons, but it is too
 > expensive and too hard to manage for many users, and impossible in
 > a growing number of cases (e.g. the "dumb" IoT devices - we used to
 > have one or two connected devices per home network, now we have
 > dozens).

Why would filtering at the endpoint be any more difficult than
anti-virus or netnanny services which already exist and are popular?

As with those one could subscribe, or be subscribed automatically, to
some third-party service maintaining updates and/or real-time
information which the endpoint software accesses.

Plus, for the more energetic, various options and control panels to
tune that or even shut it off entirely.

An ok user-facing architecture model might be Microsoft's various
bundled anti-virus tools. One can just use them as-is, turn them off,
or tweak them.

Plus the many third-party tools available to end-users.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@TheWorld.com             | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD       | 800-THE-WRLD
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From: Arzak Khan 
To: Kurtis Heimerl , Carlos Rey-Moreno 
CC: gaia , "vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , Steve Song , "hrpc@irtf.org" , Leandro Navarro 
Thread-Topic: [hrpc] [gaia]  Fibre Feudalism
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The utilization of USF funds has been an issue in Pakistan where Ministry o=
f IT and Telecoms has used the fund for building cricket stadiums, distribu=
ting smartphones to government employees and many other projects which has =
not impacted greatly on provisioning of broadband services in most of rural=
 Pakistan. Building out fiber networks still remain a challenge and limited=
 to few players only without promoting any competition.


Arzak

________________________________
From: hrpc  on behalf of Kurtis Heimerl 
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 6:44 AM
To: Carlos Rey-Moreno
Cc: gaia; vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Steve Song; hrpc@irtf.org; Le=
andro Navarro
Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism

I thought it worth noting that some of my experiences have been different t=
han Carlos's; for example in an unnamed central asian country the regulator=
 mentioned that the USF distribution is set in policy and they must, by law=
, return the money to the telecoms. Even in those with the ability to put t=
he money elsewhere, there were occasionally structures that push the regula=
tor to fund "related" but non-competitive services like computer or interne=
t literacy. Tricky space with a lot of moving pieces.

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:58 PM Carlos Rey-Moreno > wrote:
Hi all, interesting debate indeed, and happy to join a further call on this=
, or even work in a document where we can consolidate these discussions.

After having engaged with several regulators, and managers/officials from u=
niversal access agencies in Africa this year, my main take away is that the=
y keep on using USO to incentivize incumbents to go to rural areas because =
that's the only way they know. Once they are presented with alternative mod=
els like the ones mentioned by Leandro, they are very open, in principle, t=
o explore them. They are the ones who know how ineffective the current mode=
ls are, but in most cases they are, as Steve points out, constrained by fra=
meworks that only allow to use the fund to those who contribute to it.

I think, at least in Africa, there is a very interesting opportunity to wor=
k together with USAF managers/officials to discuss an potentially implement=
 innovative ways of using them. Consolidating the knowledge in this discuss=
ion and others in a working document, with the different advocates in the r=
egion speaking proposing the same thing, could contribute a lot in this dir=
ection.

best,

carlos

On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 19:29, Leandro Navarro > wrote:
Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country policy) goes in the opp=
osite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form of subsidy or tax ded=
uction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal monopoly. The typical =
government argument is that USO is paid by industry, that reflects this pri=
vilege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the incumbent only (eve=
ryone pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). In consequence, the i=
ncumbent does the minimum required to justify receiving the funds to preser=
ve the pool of unconnected as a source of future USO income (the serfs of t=
he feudal system).

For example, one fibre community network but can be any alternative operato=
r to the incumbent, fears the effect of that: https://www.ispreview.co..uk/=
index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadband-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-r=
ollout.html

That=92s why USO as implemented can be counter effective. Alternative model=
s of distribution, radically different, are needed, where all the funds are=
 not given to a single operator (and deter investment by others), but to ev=
ery citizen that qualifies (to free the serfs). Bottom-up (people centred) =
instead of top-down (incumbent centred). Something along those lines may co=
ntribute to increase alternatives and not just be used to mainly reinforce =
the de-facto monopoly of largest operators (for example: https://b4rn.org.u=
k/b4rn-service/gbvs/ ) Otherwise USO policies are mainly a form of public s=
ubsidy, a form of monopoly, to reinforce the incumbent, with the excuse of =
the underserved and unconnected.

Leandro.

On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf > wrote:

Steve is spot on.
V

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song > wrote:
Hi Amelia, Sonia,

I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be happy t=
o participate in a discussion on this.

Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally restrict=
ed to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out infrastructure has =
proven (over and over and over again) to be a terrible idea.  I hope we can=
 agree that we should stop doing that.  For me the issue is about power and=
 control and the way it is used to impede competition.  The cost of technol=
ogy has plummeted in both fibre and wireless technologies.  In theory that =
should have been a boon for competition but high spectrum auction fees and =
licenses along with exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an alm=
ost impenetrable barrier to market entry.  Any government intervention in u=
niversal service should obliged to address the issue of market permeability=
 as well as ownership of and access to core networks.

Cheers... Steve

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge > wrote:
Hi All,

Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference ca=
ll among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy to j=
oin a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and the =
Access Model.

Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may have=
) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of infrastructure? I=
 find that very difficult to believe but open to be proven wrong.

Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been m=
ore instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer and=
 behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the case =
in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well=
. So the level of economic development overall is a key variable.

As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here, =
but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced and that=
 can add to the discussion.
- A4AI=92s annual Affordability Report: https://a4ai.org/affordability-repo=
rt/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 report will be launched and published o=
n Tuesday and addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, speciall=
y on costs associated with infrastructure investment
- a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: https://a4ai..org/a=
ffordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/
- For those interested in USFs in Africa, see https://a4ai.org/universal-se=
rvice-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource-to-close-the-gender-digital-div=
ide/

Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive Director, A4AI
Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation
1-617-905-7819

On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter > wrote:

Hi all,

It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service
Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have
worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.
Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces
off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service
provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship
to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a
communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets
and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in
various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar
difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information
asymmetries?

As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also
incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's
fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a
few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is
fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the
main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in
the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile
infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors
have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where
there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I
misunderstanding something?

best regards,

Amelia



On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:
Hi Mallory,

Thanks for that!  I think you are on exactly the right track in terms
of thinking about economic models.  Thanks to Erick Huerta of
Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic
historian, Fernand Braudel..  Braudel argues that the world has three
economies not one.  A global economy which is the well-known
capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in
theory for every player.  Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual
suspects form part of this economy.  The second economy is the Local
Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you
live.  This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even
larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local
demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global
Economy.  The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market
forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional
capital to make it work.  This is the world of the informal economy
with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly
contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by
traditional statistics.  And woven among these are both commercial and
commons models, which can operate with varying success at the
different levels.

When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has
only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is
a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the
Local and Subsistence economies.

For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's
Access Gap model
. It
is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;
assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible
outcomes.

Writing more about this shortly.

Cheers... Steve


On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel 
> wrote:

   Hi Steve,

   Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I
   think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that
   could be another post in and of itself..

   The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a
   sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and
   profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to
   call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to
   socialist, and even (back to) the commons!

   I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have
   raised
   issues of centralisation on the list in the past.

   -Mallory

   On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
Hi all,

This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre
infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about
everywhere).

https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/

Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other
   reactions
you may have.

Thanks..... Steve Song


_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org 
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



   --
   Mallory Knodel
   Head of Digital :: article19.org >
   gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

   _______________________________________________
   gaia mailing list
   gaia@irtf.org >
   https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



--
+1 902 529 0046
stevesong@nsrc.org 
http://nsrc..org >


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


--
+1 902 529 0046
stevesong@nsrc.org
http://nsrc..org

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

--
Leandro Navarro
http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro  http://dsg.ac.upc.edu

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


--
Carlos Rey-Moreno, PhD
"Community and Local Access Networks" Project Coordinator
Association for Progressive Communications
https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connec=
t-themselves
Cel: +27 (0) 76 986 3633
Skype: carlos.reymoreno Twitter: Creym
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


--
Public Key: https://flowcrypt.com/pub/kheimerl@cs.washington.edu

--_000_MWHPR04MB03352DC474C670FDB39952CDFFF60MWHPR04MB0335namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









The utilization of USF funds has been an issue in Pakistan where Ministry o=
f IT and Telecoms has used the fund for building cricket stadiums, distribu=
ting smartphones to government employees and many other projects which has =
not impacted greatly on provisioning
 of broadband services in most of rural Pakistan. Building out fiber networ=
ks still remain a challenge and limited to few players only without promoti=
ng any competition.















Arzak 



 








From: hrpc <hrpc-bounces=
@irtf.org> on behalf of Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>=
;

Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 6:44 AM

To: Carlos Rey-Moreno

Cc: gaia; vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Steve Song; hrpc@irtf.=
org; Leandro Navarro

Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism

 









I thought it worth noting that some of my experiences have been differ=
ent than Carlos's; for example in an unnamed central asian country the regu=
lator mentioned that the USF distribution is set in policy and they must, b=
y law, return the money to the telecoms.
 Even in those with the ability to put the money elsewhere, there were occa=
sionally structures that push the regulator to fund "related" but=
 non-competitive services like computer or internet literacy. Tricky space =
with a lot of moving pieces. 










On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:58 PM Carlos Rey-Moreno <carlos.reymore=
no@gmail..com> wrote:








Hi all, interesting debate indeed, and happy to join a further call on=
 this, or even work in a document where we can consolidate these discussion=
s.










After having engaged with several regulators, and managers/officials f=
rom universal access agencies in Africa this year, my main take away is tha=
t they keep on using USO to incentivize incumbents to go to rural areas bec=
ause that's the only way they know.
 Once they are presented with alternative models like the ones mentioned by=
 Leandro, they are very open, in principle, to explore them. They are the o=
nes who know how ineffective the current models are, but in most cases they=
 are, as Steve points out, constrained
 by frameworks that only allow to use the fund to those who contribute to i=
t. 









I think, at least in Africa, there is a very interesting opportunity t=
o work together with USAF managers/officials to discuss an potentially impl=
ement innovative ways of using them. Consolidating the knowledge in this di=
scussion and others in a working
 document, with the different advocates in the region speaking proposing th=
e same thing, could contribute a lot in this direction.







best, 









carlos










On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 19:29, Leandro Navarro <leandro@ac.upc.edu>=
 wrote:






Agreed, b=
ut the sad thing is that practice (country policy) goes in the opposite way=
 in the few cases I know where USO is a form of subsidy or tax deduction to=
 benefit the incumbent only, before
 a legal monopoly. The typical government argument is that USO is paid by i=
ndustry, that reflects this privilege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in fa=
vour of the incumbent only (everyone pays the king operator in the feudal m=
etaphor). In consequence, the incumbent
 does the minimum required to justify receiving the funds to preserve the p=
ool of unconnected as a source of future USO income (the serfs of the feuda=
l system).





For example, one fibre community network but can be any alternative oper=
ator to the incumbent, fears the effect of that: ht=
tps://www.ispreview.co..uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadband-=
uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html


That=92s why USO as implemented can be counter effective. Alternative mo=
dels of distribution, radically different, are needed, where all the funds =
are not given to a single operator (and deter investment by others), but to=
 every citizen that qualifies (to
 free the serfs). Bottom-up (people centred) instead of top-down (incumbent=
 centred). Something along those lines may contribute to increase alternati=
ves and not just be used to mainly reinforce the de-facto monopoly of large=
st operators (for example: https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/ )
 Otherwise USO policies are mainly a form of public subsidy, a form of mono=
poly, to reinforce the incumbent, with the excuse of the underserved and un=
connected.


Leandro.







On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g> wrote:






Steve is spot on.

V








On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song <stevesong@nsrc.org> wrote:<=
br>





Hi Amelia, Sonia,






I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be ha=
ppy to participate in a discussion on this.  







Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally res=
tricted to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out infrastructure=
 has proven (over and over and over again) to be a terrible idea.  I h=
ope we can agree that we should stop
 doing that.  For me the issue is about power and control and the way =
it is used to impede competition.  The cost of technology has plummete=
d in both fibre and wireless technologies.  In theory that should have=
 been a boon for competition but high spectrum
 auction fees and licenses along with exclusive control of fibre backbones =
has created an almost impenetrable barrier to market entry.  Any gover=
nment intervention in universal service should obliged to address the issue=
 of market permeability as well as ownership
 of and access to core networks.







Cheers... Steve








On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge <s=
onia.jorge@webfoundation.org> wrote:






Hi All,






Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conferen=
ce call among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy=
 to join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and=
 the Access Model. 







Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may=
 have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of infrastructu=
re? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be proven wrong. =
;







Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have b=
een more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poore=
r and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the =
case in some Southern European countries
 and maybe Eastern European ones as well. So the level of economic developm=
ent overall is a key variable. 



As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here, =
but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced and that=
 can add to the discussion. 


- A4AI=92s annual Affordability Report: =
https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 =
report will be launched and published on Tuesday
 and addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, specially on cost=
s associated with infrastructure investment


- a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: https://a4ai..org/affordable-internet-access=
-the-cost-challenge/








Best,



Sonia Jorge

Executive Directo=
r, A4AI


Head of Digital I=
nclusion, Web Foundation


1-617-905-7819








On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19..org<=
/a>> wrote:








Hi all,



It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service=


Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically ha=
ve

worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.=


Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it face=
s

off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service=


provider has information advantage and typically a better relationshi=
p

to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a=


communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African marke=
ts

and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced=
 in

various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar

difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit=


theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information

asymmetries?



As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B a=
nd

C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also

incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That'=
s

fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned b=
y a

few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is<=
br>
fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the<=
/span>

main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in=


the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile<=
br>
infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actor=
s

have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where<=
/span>

there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I

misunderstanding something?



best regards,



Amelia







On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:


Hi Mallory,









Thanks for that!  I think you are on e=
xactly the right track in terms




of thinking about economic models.  Th=
anks to Erick Huerta of




Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the think=
ing of French economic




historian, Fernand Braudel..  Braudel =
argues that the world has three




economies not one.  A global economy w=
hich is the well-known




capitalist economic model where monopoly is=
 the perfect end-game in




theory for every player.  Google, Colg=
ate, Coca-Cola, all the usual




suspects form part of this economy.  T=
he second economy is the Local




Economy where services are specific to the =
city/community where you




live.  This might be your local butche=
r, baker, plumbers or even




larger service provider which offers servic=
es that grow out of local




demand and which serve local needs in more =
unique ways than the Global




Economy.  The third economy is the Sub=
sistence economy where market




forces may not operate because there is not=
 sufficient traditional




capital to make it work.  This is the =
world of the informal economy




with barters, cooperatives, community initi=
atives that directly




contribute to the overall economy but are l=
argely unmeasured by




traditional statistics.  And woven amo=
ng these are both commercial and




commons models, which can operate with vary=
ing success at the




different levels.  









When viewed through this lens, it is easy t=
o see how regulation has




only enabled the global economy in telecomm=
unication and that there is




a need for enabling regulations to nurture =
telecom initiatives in the




Local and Subsistence economies.  =
;









For me this also highlights a key flaw in m=
odels like the World Bank's




Access Gap model




<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and-universal-access&=
gt;. It




is not so much that the model is wrong, it =
is just one-dimensional;




assuming that successful global capitalism =
is the best of all possible




outcomes.









Writing more about this shortly.









Cheers... Steve














On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel=
 <mallory@article19.org




<mailto:mallory@article19.org>=
> wrote:









   Hi Steve,









   Thanks for sharing. I rea=
d it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I




   think the metaphor is sol=
id economically. And politically, well, that




   could be another post in =
and of itself..









   The agrarian commons woul=
d of course be ideal, but what we have is a




   sort of old-world economi=
c structure that politically controls and




   profits from (what should=
 be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to




   call for modern economic =
models ranging from squarely capitalist to




   socialist, and even (back=
 to) the commons!









   I'm CCing HRPC because it=
 might be of interest to those who have




   raised




   issues of centralisation =
on the list in the past.









   -Mallory









   On 04/10/2018 15:30, Stev=
e Song wrote:






Hi all,

















This is a reflection on the current state o=
f terrestrial fibre








infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I=
 think applies just about








everywhere).  

















https://manypo=
ssibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/

















Curious to know how apt you feel the metaph=
or is or any other






   reactions






you may have. 

















Thanks..... Steve Song


























___________________________________________=
____








gaia mailing list








gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>








https://www.irtf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/gaia

























   -- 




   Mallory Knodel




   Head of Digital :: 
article19.org <http://article19.org>




   gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 6=
3E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780









   _________________________=
______________________




   gaia mailing list<=
br>



   gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@=
irtf..org>




   https://=
www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



















-- 




+1 902 529 0046




stevesong@nsrc.org <mailto:steveso=
ng@nsrc.org>




http://nsrc..org <http://nsrc.org>














___________________________________________=
____




hrpc mailing list




hrpc@irtf.org




https://www.irtf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/hrpc







-- 

Amelia Andersdotter

Technical Consultant, Digital Programme



ARTICLE19

www.article19.org



PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55





_______________________________________________

gaia mailing list

gaia@irtf.org

https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia









_______________________________________________

gaia mailing list

gaia@=
irtf.org

https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia<=
br>











-- 






_______________________________________________

gaia mailing list

gaia@=
irtf.org

https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia<=
br>




_______________________________________________

gaia mailing list

gaia@irtf.org

ht=
tps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


















_______________________________________________

gaia mailing list

gaia@irtf.org

https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia









-- 
































Carlos Rey-Moreno, PhD




"Community and Local Access Networks" Project Coordinator 
Association for Progressive Communications

https://www.apc.org/en/project/=
local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connect-themselves




Cel: +27 (0) 76 986 3633

Skype: carlos.reymoreno Twitter: Creym































_______________________________________________

gaia mailing list

gaia@irtf.org

https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia









-- 











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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:06:09 +0200 (CEST)
From: Vittorio Bertola 
To: bzs@theworld.com, hrpc@irtf.org
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> Il 23 ottobre 2018 alle 21.51 bzs@theworld.com ha scritto:
>
> Why would filtering at the endpoint be any more difficult than
> anti-virus or netnanny services which already exist and are popular?

It's not, and it's great if you can run an endpoint security application, but:

1) there are now many Internet-connected consumer devices that simply don't have the resources to run that kind of application (smart TVs, smart appliances, surveillance cameras, whatever) or even don't have update capabilities or local storage (two prerequisites for workable endpoint security);

2) even if the device allows it, running an antivirus requires attention and some skills by the user: you have to turn it on, you have not to turn it off the first time it blocks a malware-infected site hosting that football match video stream that you really want to see, you have to update it when it needs to, you have to renew your subscriptions, you have to be sure that nothing (e.g. some new malware that escaped its checks) blocked its functionality... not every user is going to get this right;

3) and in many cases, unless the security is really basic, the user has to pay quite some money for it, which not everyone is willing to do - splitting the cost of a single network-based solution among all the ISP's subscribers is much more cost-effective.

This is why many parental control/network security services (e.g. OpenDNS, DNSFilter...) rather adopted the DNS filtering model, and now network security devices for the home are appearing, e.g. Norton Core ( https://us.norton.com/core ): even antivirus makers are moving in that direction.

Regards,
-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


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From: Jane Coffin 
To: Arzak Khan , gaia 
CC: "vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , Kurtis Heimerl , Steve Song ,  "hrpc@irtf.org" , Leandro Navarro , Carlos Rey-Moreno 
Thread-Topic: [gaia] [hrpc]   Fibre Feudalism
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia]    Fibre Feudalism
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Arzak =E2=80=93

=20

Spot on.=C2=A0 I have seen this as well in many countries.

We also know of a story (all too common) where a small island nation adopte=
d an USF Regulation, and did not develop procedures or rules/sub-regulations=
 to implement the regulation.=C2=A0 When a small networking project applied for =
funds, the process took a year due to the need to establish regs and to wran=
gle the funds out of the regulator.=C2=A0=20

=20

I have 2 asks from the GAIA community:=C2=A0=20

ASK 1:=C2=A0 Would any of you like to speak at the upcoming GAIA session on thi=
s topic (remotely or in person in Bangkok)?

GAIA @IETF103 will be Tuesday, 6 November 2018

Afternoon Session I 1350-1550 (=3D0630 UTC, Tuesday, 6 Nov).

=20

ASK 2:=C2=A0 Carlos suggested we include more about USF/USO in a GAIA output.=C2=A0=
 Note Leandro=E2=80=99s email from a few weeks ago about putting a document togeth=
er.=C2=A0=20

=20

USF/USO also begs these other questions:

-Should governments start new funds that are more flexible to support the d=
evelopment of IXPs and Community Networks/Muni networks? Given that it could=
 take years for some governments to change USF and other rules/procedures/re=
gs/processes?

-How can we light a fire under the toes of big funders to urge them to supp=
ort funding smaller projects where we provide business/management and fin/ma=
nagement training (Many of our organizations could help them develop this an=
cillary training).=C2=A0=20

=20

Best,

Jane

=20

=20

Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org

Skype:  janercoffin

Mobile/WhatsApp:  +1.202.247.8429

=20

From: gaia  on behalf of Arzak Khan 
Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 5:17 AM
To: Kurtis Heimerl , Carlos Rey-Moreno 
Cc: "gaia@irtf.org" , "vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , Steve Song , "hrpc@irtf=
.org" , Leandro Navarro 
Subject: Re: [gaia] [hrpc] Fibre Feudalism

=20

The utilization of USF funds has been an issue in Pakistan where Ministry o=
f IT and Telecoms has used the fund for building cricket stadiums, distribut=
ing smartphones to government employees and many other projects which has no=
t impacted greatly on provisioning of broadband services in most of rural Pa=
kistan. Building out fiber networks still remain a challenge and limited to =
few players only without promoting any competition.

=20

=20

Arzak=20

=20

From: hrpc  on behalf of Kurtis Heimerl 
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 6:44 AM
To: Carlos Rey-Moreno
Cc: gaia; vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Steve Song; hrpc@irtf.org; Lean=
dro Navarro
Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism=20

=20

I thought it worth noting that some of my experiences have been different t=
han Carlos's; for example in an unnamed central asian country the regulator =
mentioned that the USF distribution is set in policy and they must, by law, =
return the money to the telecoms. Even in those with the ability to put the =
money elsewhere, there were occasionally structures that push the regulator =
to fund "related" but non-competitive services like computer or internet lit=
eracy. Tricky space with a lot of moving pieces.=20

=20

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:58 PM Carlos Rey-Moreno  wrote:

Hi all, interesting debate indeed, and happy to join a further call on this=
, or even work in a document where we can consolidate these discussions.=20

=20

After having engaged with several regulators, and managers/officials from u=
niversal access agencies in Africa this year, my main take away is that they=
 keep on using USO to incentivize incumbents to go to rural areas because th=
at's the only way they know. Once they are presented with alternative models=
 like the ones mentioned by Leandro, they are very open, in principle, to ex=
plore them. They are the ones who know how ineffective the current models ar=
e, but in most cases they are, as Steve points out, constrained by framework=
s that only allow to use the fund to those who contribute to it.=20

=20

I think, at least in Africa, there is a very interesting opportunity to wor=
k together with USAF managers/officials to discuss an potentially implement =
innovative ways of using them. Consolidating the knowledge in this discussio=
n and others in a working document, with the different advocates in the regi=
on speaking proposing the same thing, could contribute a lot in this directi=
on.

=20

best,=20

=20

carlos

=20

On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 19:29, Leandro Navarro  wrote:

Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country policy) goes in the opp=
osite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form of subsidy or tax dedu=
ction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal monopoly. The typical go=
vernment argument is that USO is paid by industry, that reflects this privil=
ege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the incumbent only (everyon=
e pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). In consequence, the incumb=
ent does the minimum required to justify receiving the funds to preserve the=
 pool of unconnected as a source of future USO income (the serfs of the feud=
al system).=20

For example, one fibre community network but can be any alternative operato=
r to the incumbent, fears the effect of that: https://www.ispreview.co..uk/i=
ndex.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadband-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rol=
lout.html

That=E2=80=99s why USO as implemented can be counter effective. Alternative model=
s of distribution, radically different, are needed, where all the funds are =
not given to a single operator (and deter investment by others), but to ever=
y citizen that qualifies (to free the serfs). Bottom-up (people centred) ins=
tead of top-down (incumbent centred). Something along those lines may contri=
bute to increase alternatives and not just be used to mainly reinforce the d=
e-facto monopoly of largest operators (for example: https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn=
-service/gbvs/ ) Otherwise USO policies are mainly a form of public subsidy,=
 a form of monopoly, to reinforce the incumbent, with the excuse of the unde=
rserved and unconnected.

Leandro.



On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf  wrot=
e:

=20

Steve is spot on.=20

V

=20

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song  wrote:

Hi Amelia, Sonia,=20

=20

I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be happy t=
o participate in a discussion on this. =20

=20

Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally restrict=
ed to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out infrastructure has p=
roven (over and over and over again) to be a terrible idea.  I hope we can a=
gree that we should stop doing that.  For me the issue is about power and co=
ntrol and the way it is used to impede competition.  The cost of technology =
has plummeted in both fibre and wireless technologies.  In theory that shoul=
d have been a boon for competition but high spectrum auction fees and licens=
es along with exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost imp=
enetrable barrier to market entry.  Any government intervention in universal=
 service should obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well =
as ownership of and access to core networks.

=20

Cheers... Steve

=20

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge  w=
rote:

Hi All,=20

=20

Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference ca=
ll among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy to jo=
in a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and the Ac=
cess Model.=20

=20

Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may have=
) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of infrastructure? I =
find that very difficult to believe but open to be proven wrong.=20

=20

Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been m=
ore instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer and =
behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the case in=
 some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well. S=
o the level of economic development overall is a key variable.=20

As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here, =
but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced and that =
can add to the discussion.=20

- A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: https://a4ai.org/affordability-repo=
rt/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 report will be launched and published on=
 Tuesday and addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, specially =
on costs associated with infrastructure investment

- a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: https://a4ai..org/a=
ffordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/

- For those interested in USFs in Africa, see https://a4ai.org/universal-se=
rvice-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource-to-close-the-gender-digital-divi=
de/

=20

Best,

Sonia Jorge=20

Executive Director, A4AI

Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation

1-617-905-7819


On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter  wrot=
e:

Hi all,

It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service
Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have
worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.
Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces
off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service
provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship
to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a
communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets
and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in
various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar
difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information
asymmetries?

As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also
incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's
fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a
few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is
fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the
main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in
the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile
infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors
have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where
there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I
misunderstanding something?

best regards,

Amelia



On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:


Hi Mallory,

=20

Thanks for that!  I think you are on exactly the right track in terms

of thinking about economic models.  Thanks to Erick Huerta of

Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic

historian, Fernand Braudel..  Braudel argues that the world has three

economies not one.  A global economy which is the well-known

capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in

theory for every player.  Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual

suspects form part of this economy.  The second economy is the Local

Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you

live.  This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even

larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local

demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global

Economy.  The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market

forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional

capital to make it work.  This is the world of the informal economy

with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly

contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by

traditional statistics.  And woven among these are both commercial and

commons models, which can operate with varying success at the

different levels. =20

=20

When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has

only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is

a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the

Local and Subsistence economies. =20

=20

For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's

Access Gap model

. It

is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;

assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible

outcomes.

=20

Writing more about this shortly.

=20

Cheers... Steve

=20

=20

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel > wrote:

=20

   Hi Steve,

=20

   Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I

   think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that

   could be another post in and of itself..

=20

   The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a

   sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and

   profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to

   call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to

   socialist, and even (back to) the commons!

=20

   I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have

   raised

   issues of centralisation on the list in the past.

=20

   -Mallory

=20

   On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:

Hi all,

=20

This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre

infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about

everywhere). =20

=20

https://manypossibilities.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/

=20

Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other

   reactions

you may have.=20

=20

Thanks..... Steve Song

=20

=20

_______________________________________________

gaia mailing list

gaia@irtf.org 

https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

=20

=20

=20

   --=20

   Mallory Knodel

   Head of Digital :: article19.org 

   gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

=20

   _______________________________________________

   gaia mailing list

   gaia@irtf.org 

   https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

=20

=20

=20

--=20

+1 902 529 0046

stevesong@nsrc.org 

http://nsrc..org 

=20

=20

_______________________________________________

hrpc mailing list

hrpc@irtf.org

https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc



--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


=20

--=20

+1 902 529 0046

stevesong@nsrc.org

http://nsrc..org

=20

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

=20

--
Leandro Navarro
http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro  http://dsg..ac.upc.edu

=20

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



--=20

Carlos Rey-Moreno, PhD

"Community and Local Access Networks" Project Coordinator=20
Association for Progressive Communications
https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connec=
t-themselves

Cel: +27 (0) 76 986 3633
Skype: carlos.reymoreno Twitter: Creym

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



--=20

Public Key: https://flowcrypt.com/pub/kheimerl@cs.washington.edu


--B_3623214479_414258923
Content-type: text/html;
	charset="UTF-8"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable


Arzak =E2=80=93
 
Spot on.=C2=A0 I have seen this as well in many countries.=

We also know of=
 a story (all too common) where a small island nation adopted an USF Regulat=
ion, and did not develop procedures or rules/sub-regulations to implement th=
e regulation.=C2=A0 When a small networking project applied for funds, the proce=
ss took a year due to the need to establish regs and to wrangle the funds ou=
t of the regulator.=C2=A0 
 
I have 2 asks from the GAIA community:=C2=A0 
ASK 1:=C2=A0 Would any =
of you like to speak at the upcoming GAIA session on this topic (remotely or=
 in person in Bangkok)?
GAIA @IETF103 will be Tuesday, 6 November 2018=

Afternoon Sessi=
on I 1350-1550 (=3D0630 UTC, Tuesday, 6 Nov).
 
ASK 2:=C2=A0 Carlos suggested we include mor=
e about USF/USO in a GAIA output.=C2=A0 Note Leandro=E2=80=99s email from a few weeks =
ago about putting a document together.=C2=A0 
 
USF/USO also begs these other questio=
ns:
-=
Should governments start new funds that are more flexible to support the dev=
elopment of IXPs and Community Networks/Muni networks? Given that it could t=
ake years for some governments to change USF and other rules/procedures/regs=
/processes?
-How can we light a fire under the toes of big funders to urge them t=
o support funding smaller projects where we provide business/management and =
fin/management training (Many of our organizations could help them develop t=
his ancillary training).=C2=A0 
 
<=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Best,
Jane
&nbs=
p;
 
Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org
Skype:  janercoffin
Mobile/WhatsApp:  =
+1.202.247.8429
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal> 
From=
: gaia <gaia-bounce=
s@irtf.org> on behalf of Arzak Khan <director@ipop.org.pk>
Da=
te: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 5:17 AM
To: Kurtis Heimerl =
<kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>, Carlos Rey-Moreno <carlos.reymoreno@g=
mail.com>
Cc: "gaia@irtf.org" <gaia@irtf.org>, =
"vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.iet=
f.org>, Steve Song <stevesong@nsrc.org>, "hrpc@irtf.org" =
<hrpc@irtf.org>, Leandro Navarro <leandro@ac.upc.edu>
Subj=
ect: Re: [gaia] [hrpc] Fibre Feudalism
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal> 
The utilization of USF funds has been an=
 issue in Pakistan where Ministry of IT and Telecoms has used the fund for b=
uilding cricket stadiums, distributing smartphones to government employees a=
nd many other projects which has not impacted greatly on provisioning of bro=
adband services in most of rural Pakistan. Building out fiber networks still=
 remain a challenge and limited to few players only without promoting any co=
mpetition.
 
 
Arzak 
 
From: hrpc <hrpc-bounces@=
irtf.org> on behalf of Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu><=
br>Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 6:44 AM
To: Carlos Rey-Mo=
reno
Cc: gaia; vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Steve Song; hrpc@=
irtf.org; Leandro Navarro
Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudali=
sm 
 
=

I thought it worth noting that some =
of my experiences have been different than Carlos's; for example in an unnam=
ed central asian country the regulator mentioned that the USF distribution i=
s set in policy and they must, by law, return the money to the telecoms. Eve=
n in those with the ability to put the money elsewhere, there were occasiona=
lly structures that push the regulator to fund "related" but non-c=
ompetitive services like computer or internet literacy. Tricky space with a =
lot of moving pieces. 
 
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:58=
 PM Carlos Rey-Moreno <carlos.reymoreno@gmail..com> wrote:
H=
i all, interesting debate indeed, and happy to join a further call on this, =
or even work in a document where we can consolidate these discussions. =

 
After having engaged with several regulators, and managers/of=
ficials from universal access agencies in Africa this year, my main take awa=
y is that they keep on using USO to incentivize incumbents to go to rural ar=
eas because that's the only way they know. Once they are presented with alte=
rnative models like the ones mentioned by Leandro, they are very open, in pr=
inciple, to explore them. They are the ones who know how ineffective the cur=
rent models are, but in most cases they are, as Steve points out, constraine=
d by frameworks that only allow to use the fund to those who contribute to i=
t. 
 
<=
div>
I think, at least in Africa, there is a very interest=
ing opportunity to work together with USAF managers/officials to discuss an =
potentially implement innovative ways of using them. Consolidating the knowl=
edge in this discussion and others in a working document, with the different=
 advocates in the region speaking proposing the same thing, could contribute=
 a lot in this direction.
&=
nbsp;
best, 
 
carlo=
s
 
On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 19:29, Leandro Navarro <leandro@ac.upc.edu> wr=
ote:
Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country po=
licy) goes in the opposite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form o=
f subsidy or tax deduction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal mon=
opoly. The typical government argument is that USO is paid by industry, that=
 reflects this privilege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the in=
cumbent only (everyone pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). In co=
nsequence, the incumbent does the minimum required to justify receiving the =
funds to preserve the pool of unconnected as a source of future USO income (=
the serfs of the feudal system). 
For example, on=
e fibre community network but can be any alternative operator to the incumbe=
nt, fears the effect of that: https://www.ispreview.co..uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-=
fear-10mbps-uk-broadband-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html
That=E2=80=99s why USO as implemented can be counter effective. Alternati=
ve models of distribution, radically different, are needed, where all the fu=
nds are not given to a single operator (and deter investment by others), but=
 to every citizen that qualifies (to free the serfs). Bottom-up (people cent=
red) instead of top-down (incumbent centred). Something along those lines ma=
y contribute to increase alternatives and not just be used to mainly reinfor=
ce the de-facto monopoly of largest operators (for example: https://b4rn.org.uk/b4=
rn-service/gbvs/ ) Otherwise USO policies are mainly a form of publ=
ic subsidy, a form of monopoly, to reinforce the incumbent, with the excuse =
of the underserved and unconnected.
Le=
andro.


On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wr=
ote:
 
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal>Steve is spot on. 
V=

 
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song <stevesong@nsrc.org> wrote:
Hi Amelia, Sonia, 
=
 
I agree this is a very interes=
ting and timely debate and I would be happy to participate in a discussion o=
n this.  
 <=
/o:p>
Universal service funds that involve =
(or in many cases are legally restricted to) giving money back to the incumb=
ents to build out infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again) t=
o be a terrible idea.  I hope we can agree that we should stop doing th=
at.  For me the issue is about power and control and the way it is used=
 to impede competition.  The cost of technology has plummeted in both f=
ibre and wireless technologies.  In theory that should have been a boon=
 for competition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along with excl=
usive control of fibre backbones has created an almost impenetrable barrier =
to market entry.  Any government intervention in universal service shou=
ld obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well as ownership =
of and access to core networks.
=
 
Cheers... Steve
 
On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org=
> wrote:
Hi All, 
=
 
Interesting discussion he=
re. One that might warrant a webinar/conference call among interested people=
? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy to join a stimulating discussio=
n on the topic, starting with your blog and the Access Model. 
 
Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything yo=
u may have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of infrastr=
ucture? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be proven wrong.&n=
bsp;
 
=

Something important to keep in mind is that countrie=
s where USO have been more instrumental are also countries that have traditi=
onally been poorer and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this i=
s certainly the case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern E=
uropean ones as well. So the level of economic development overall is a key =
variable. 

As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I co=
uld share a lot here, but for now let me call your attention to some reports=
 we produced and that can add to the discussion. 
<=
div>
- A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: https:/=
/a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 report w=
ill be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key questions relevan=
t to this discussion, specially on costs associated with infrastructure inve=
stment
- a recent blog on infras=
tructure costs and challenges: https://a4ai..org/affordab=
le-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/
 
Best,
Sonia Jorge 
Executive Director, A4AI
=

Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation
<=
div>
1-617-905-7819
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33=
, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19..org> wrote:
Hi all,
It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal ServiceObligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically haveworse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.
Ap=
plying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces
off =
with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service
provide=
r has information advantage and typically a better relationship
to its co=
nsumers than the government has to its citizens (so a
communications adva=
ntage too). I lack experience of the African markets
and their regulators=
, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in
various European jur=
isdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar
difficulties would arise in =
the African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curious how =
to avoid these information
asymmetries?

As it is described by Stev=
en, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
C all collaborate as soon a=
s they own physical fibre networks) also
incentivises many actors to get =
into the infrastructure market. That's
fundamentally a good thing: it mea=
ns not all the last-mile is owned by a
few big actors who need to be regu=
lated by a regulator who is
fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to t=
he big actors. It's the
main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundli=
ng reform of 1999 in
the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in =
last-mile
infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different=
 actors
have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or wh=
ere
there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am Imisunderstanding something?

best regards,

Amelia


<=
br>On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:

Hi Mallory,<=
o:p>
 
Thanks for that=
!  I think you are on exactly the right track in terms
of thinking about economic models.  Thanks to Erick Huerta o=
f
Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking =
of French economic
historian, Fernand Braudel..&n=
bsp; Braudel argues that the world has three
econ=
omies not one.  A global economy which is the well-known
=

capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-gam=
e in
theory for every player.  Google, Colga=
te, Coca-Cola, all the usual
suspects form part o=
f this economy.  The second economy is the Local
Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you
live.  This might be your local butcher, baker,=
 plumbers or even
larger service provider which o=
ffers services that grow out of local
demand and =
which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global
Economy.  The third economy is the Subsistence economy where=
 market
forces may not operate because there is n=
ot sufficient traditional
capital to make it work=
.  This is the world of the informal economy
with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly<=
/p>
contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured=
 by
traditional statistics.  And woven among=
 these are both commercial and
commons models, wh=
ich can operate with varying success at the
diffe=
rent levels.  
 
When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation ha=
s
only enabled the global economy in telecommunic=
ation and that there is
a need for enabling regul=
ations to nurture telecom initiatives in the
Loca=
l and Subsistence economies.  
&nb=
sp;
For me this also highlights a key flaw in models l=
ike the World Bank's
Access Gap model<=
/p>
<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-ga=
ps-model-and-universal-access>. It
is=
 not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;=

assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of a=
ll possible
outcomes.
=

=
 
Writing more about this shortly.
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal> 
Cheers... Steve
=

 
 
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org
<ma=
ilto:mallory@article19.org>> wrote:
 
   Hi Steve,
 
   Thanks for sha=
ring. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I
   think the metaphor is solid economically. And politi=
cally, well, that
   could be anot=
her post in and of itself..
 
=

   The agrarian commons would of course be ideal=
, but what we have is a
   sort of=
 old-world economic structure that politically controls and
   profits from (what should be) the commons. This=
 sets you up nicely to
   call for=
 modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to
   socialist, and even (back to) the commons!=

 
   I=
'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have
   raised
 &nb=
sp; issues of centralisation on the list in the past.
 
   -Mallory<=
/o:p>
 
   On=
 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
Hi all,
 
This is a reflection on the current state of terre=
strial fibre
infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but =
I think applies just about
everywhere).  
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal> 
https://manypossibilities=
.net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/
 
=

Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other
   reactions
<=
/blockquote>
you may=
 have. 
 
Thanks..... St=
eve Song
 
 <=
/p>
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
<=
blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
https://www.irtf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/gaia
 
<=
/blockquote>
 
 
   -- 
   Mallo=
ry Knodel
   Head of Digital :: article19.org <http://article19.org>
   gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240=
 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780
 <=
/o:p>
   ____________________________________=
___________
   gaia mailing list
   gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf..org>
  =
; =
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
 
 
 =
;
-- 
+1 902 529 0046<=
/o:p>
st=
evesong@nsrc.org <mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org>
http://nsrc..org <http://nsrc.org>
 
 
___________=
____________________________________
hrpc mailing=
 list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/hrpc


-- 
Am=
elia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE1=
9
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


=
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/gaia
_______________________________________________
gaia mail=
ing list
gaia@irtf.org=

htt=
ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

 
-- 
_________________________________=
______________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia<=
/o:p>
_____________________________=
__________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
 
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing li=
st
gaia@irtf.org
https://w=
ww.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


-- 
<=
div>
Car=
los Rey-Moreno, PhD
"Commun=
ity and Local Access Networks" Project Coordinator 
Association for =
Progressive Communications
https:/=
/www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connect-themse=
lves
Cel: +27 (0) 76 986 363=
3
Skype: carlos.reymoreno Twitter: Creym
<=
/div>
_______________________________________________gaia mailing list
gaia@ir=
tf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


-- 


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--B_3623214479_1042751801--


From nobody Wed Oct 24 11:27:24 2018
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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:27:07 -0400
From: bzs@theworld.com
To: Vittorio Bertola 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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On October 24, 2018 at 14:06 vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com (Vittorio Bertola) wrote:
 > > Il 23 ottobre 2018 alle 21.51 bzs@theworld.com ha scritto:
 > >
 > > Why would filtering at the endpoint be any more difficult than
 > > anti-virus or netnanny services which already exist and are popular?
 > 
 > It's not, and it's great if you can run an endpoint security application, but:
 > 
 > 1) there are now many Internet-connected consumer devices that simply don't have the resources to run that kind of application (smart TVs, smart appliances, surveillance cameras, whatever) or even don't have update capabilities or local storage (two prerequisites for workable endpoint security);

Oh hasn't that been a historically bad bet in the computing and
standards world?

I started with machines with 64KB (kilo) max memory and computing
measured in KIPS (maybe 150 kiloinstructions/second.)

We are engaged in a rather painful transition from IPv4 to IPv6
because we thought 32-bits of address should be plenty and machines of
the day could compare and move 32-bits relatively quickly.

Now the $5 Raspberry PI zero has more computrons than entire defense
labs had back then and smartphones more computrons than 1990s
super-computers costing millions of dollars...Gordon Bell offered $1M
around 1990 to anyone who could produce a machine which could sustain
1 teraflop...now any decent phone can do that.

(ok, I'm an old fart, I had fun writing that, forgive me!)

 > 
 > 2) even if the device allows it, running an antivirus requires attention and some skills by the user: you have to turn it on, you have not to turn it off the first time it blocks a malware-infected site hosting that football match video stream that you really want to see, you have to update it when it needs to, you have to renew your subscriptions, you have to be sure that nothing (e.g. some new malware that escaped its checks) blocked its functionality... not every user is going to get this right;

No different really than e.g. Microsoft's bundled anti-virus software.

I think one shouldn't argue against current use cases numbering in the
billions as being unworkable.

In many ways this "filtering" idea resembles the anti-virus software
ecosystem: Where does the software come from, how are filters updated,
etc.

 > 
 > 3) and in many cases, unless the security is really basic, the user has to pay quite some money for it, which not everyone is willing to do - splitting the cost of a single network-based solution among all the ISP's subscribers is much more cost-effective.

Again, MS anti-virus software comes bundled which in turn comes
bundled with machines and their OS, few notice the cost. And third
party anti-virus packages are popular.

But the real point is, and speaking even as an ISP, I don't WANT the
ISP to filter content unless I ask them to and even then. We might
have to due to a legal order but that's different and both can go on.

I want ISPs to only filter what is relevant to their operational or
specific legal concerns.

We block a lot of spam sources primarily because they often resemble a
denial of service attack flooding our bandwidth and slowing our
servers, not because we don't trust the quality of the content per se.

Ok we run a virus filter and spamassassin for example also as a
courtesy to customers but our interest is primarly operational,
including not having our support etc have to deal with virus-infected
customers with flooded mailboxes.

 > 
 > This is why many parental control/network security services (e.g. OpenDNS, DNSFilter...) rather adopted the DNS filtering model, and now network security devices for the home are appearing, e.g. Norton Core ( https://us.norton.com/core ): even antivirus makers are moving in that direction.

That's really little different than what I am advocating.

 > 
 > Regards,
 > -- 
 > 
 > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
 > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
 > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > hrpc mailing list
 > hrpc@irtf.org
 > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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From: Sonia Jorge 
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:28:44 -0400
Message-ID: 
To: Jane Coffin 
Cc: director@ipop.org.pk, gaia ,  Carlos Rey-Moreno , leandro@ac.upc.edu,  Steve Song , hrpc@irtf.org, vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org, kheimerl@cs.washington.edu
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia]  Fibre Feudalism
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Hi Jane,

As you know, A4AI has put a lot of thought into USFs across the regions,
with a focus on making them effective and accountable mechanisms to deliver
universal access through multiple options (including community access,
networks, public wifi support, etc.), but also focusing on targeted groups,
e.g., women and girls.

Not sure if anyone on our team is available to support the Bangkok
discussion but will check and let you know.

As for your very good questions, I am not sure I have an answer. I can tell
you that we are certainly trying and have had some interest, but takes time
to do this at a scale that you can see impact. As I believe I shared
earlier, we are planning to do this in the ECOWAS countries and are
currently doing it in Mozambique.

Happy to discuss further!
Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive Director, Alliance for Affordable Internet
Head of Digital Inclusion Program, Web Foundation
a4ai.org Twitter: @A4A_internet

+1-617-905-7819 (USA)
PGP: 8B995609B48715A3

*World Wide Web Foundation | **1110 Vermont Ave NW, Suite 500, Washington
DC 20005, USA | **www.webfoundation.org* 
* | Twitter: @webfoundation*


On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 8:28 AM Jane Coffin  wrote:

> Arzak =E2=80=93
>
>
>
> Spot on.  I have seen this as well in many countries.
>
> We also know of a story (all too common) where a small island nation
> adopted an USF Regulation, and did not develop procedures or
> rules/sub-regulations to implement the regulation.  When a small networki=
ng
> project applied for funds, the process took a year due to the need to
> establish regs and to wrangle the funds out of the regulator.
>
>
>
> I have 2 asks from the GAIA community:
>
> ASK 1:  Would any of you like to speak at the upcoming GAIA session on
> this topic (remotely or in person in Bangkok)?
>
> GAIA @IETF103 will be Tuesday, 6 November 2018
>
> Afternoon Session I 1350-1550 (=3D0630 UTC, Tuesday, 6 Nov).
>
> ASK 2:  Carlos suggested we include more about USF/USO in a GAIA output.
> Note Leandro=E2=80=99s email from a few weeks ago about putting a documen=
t
> together.
>
>
>
> USF/USO also begs these other questions:
>
> -Should governments start new funds that are more flexible to support the
> development of IXPs and Community Networks/Muni networks? Given that it
> could take years for some governments to change USF and other
> rules/procedures/regs/processes?
>
> -How can we light a fire under the toes of big funders to urge them to
> support funding smaller projects where we provide business/management and
> fin/management training (Many of our organizations could help them develo=
p
> this ancillary training).
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jane
>
>
>
>
>
> Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org
>
> Skype:  janercoffin
>
> Mobile/WhatsApp:  +1.202.247.8429
>
>
>
> *From: *gaia  on behalf of Arzak Khan <
> director@ipop.org.pk>
> *Date: *Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 5:17 AM
> *To: *Kurtis Heimerl , Carlos Rey-Moreno <
> carlos.reymoreno@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *"gaia@irtf.org" , "vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g"
> , Steve Song , "
> hrpc@irtf.org" , Leandro Navarro 
> *Subject: *Re: [gaia] [hrpc] Fibre Feudalism
>
>
>
> The utilization of USF funds has been an issue in Pakistan where Ministry
> of IT and Telecoms has used the fund for building cricket stadiums,
> distributing smartphones to government employees and many other projects
> which has not impacted greatly on provisioning of broadband services in
> most of rural Pakistan. Building out fiber networks still remain a
> challenge and limited to few players only without promoting any competiti=
on.
>
>
>
>
>
> Arzak
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* hrpc  on behalf of Kurtis Heimerl <
> kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 22, 2018 6:44 AM
> *To:* Carlos Rey-Moreno
> *Cc:* gaia; vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Steve Song; hrpc@irtf.org=
;
> Leandro Navarro
> *Subject:* Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism
>
>
>
> I thought it worth noting that some of my experiences have been different
> than Carlos's; for example in an unnamed central asian country the
> regulator mentioned that the USF distribution is set in policy and they
> must, by law, return the money to the telecoms. Even in those with the
> ability to put the money elsewhere, there were occasionally structures th=
at
> push the regulator to fund "related" but non-competitive services like
> computer or internet literacy. Tricky space with a lot of moving pieces.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:58 PM Carlos Rey-Moreno <
> carlos.reymoreno@gmail..com > wrote:
>
> Hi all, interesting debate indeed, and happy to join a further call on
> this, or even work in a document where we can consolidate these
> discussions.
>
>
>
> After having engaged with several regulators, and managers/officials from
> universal access agencies in Africa this year, my main take away is that
> they keep on using USO to incentivize incumbents to go to rural areas
> because that's the only way they know. Once they are presented with
> alternative models like the ones mentioned by Leandro, they are very open=
,
> in principle, to explore them. They are the ones who know how ineffective
> the current models are, but in most cases they are, as Steve points out,
> constrained by frameworks that only allow to use the fund to those who
> contribute to it.
>
>
>
> I think, at least in Africa, there is a very interesting opportunity to
> work together with USAF managers/officials to discuss an potentially
> implement innovative ways of using them. Consolidating the knowledge in
> this discussion and others in a working document, with the different
> advocates in the region speaking proposing the same thing, could contribu=
te
> a lot in this direction.
>
>
>
> best,
>
>
>
> carlos
>
>
>
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 19:29, Leandro Navarro  wrote:
>
> Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country policy) goes in the
> opposite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form of subsidy or ta=
x
> deduction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal monopoly. The
> typical government argument is that USO is paid by industry, that reflect=
s
> this privilege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the incumbent
> only (everyone pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). In
> consequence, the incumbent does the minimum required to justify receiving
> the funds to preserve the pool of unconnected as a source of future USO
> income (the serfs of the feudal system).
>
> For example, one fibre community network but can be any alternative
> operator to the incumbent, fears the effect of that:
> https://www.ispreview.co..uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadb=
and-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html
> 
>
> That=E2=80=99s why USO as implemented can be counter effective. Alternati=
ve models
> of distribution, radically different, are needed, where all the funds are
> not given to a single operator (and deter investment by others), but to
> every citizen that qualifies (to free the serfs). Bottom-up (people
> centred) instead of top-down (incumbent centred). Something along those
> lines may contribute to increase alternatives and not just be used to
> mainly reinforce the de-facto monopoly of largest operators (for example:
> https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/ ) Otherwise USO policies are
> mainly a form of public subsidy, a form of monopoly, to reinforce the
> incumbent, with the excuse of the underserved and unconnected.
>
> Leandro.
>
>
>
> On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Steve is spot on.
>
> V
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song  wrote:
>
> Hi Amelia, Sonia,
>
>
>
> I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be happy
> to participate in a discussion on this.
>
>
>
> Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally
> restricted to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out
> infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again) to be a terrible
> idea.  I hope we can agree that we should stop doing that.  For me the
> issue is about power and control and the way it is used to impede
> competition.  The cost of technology has plummeted in both fibre and
> wireless technologies.  In theory that should have been a boon for
> competition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along with
> exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost impenetrable
> barrier to market entry.  Any government intervention in universal servic=
e
> should obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well as
> ownership of and access to core networks.
>
>
>
> Cheers... Steve
>
>
>
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge 
> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference
> call among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy =
to
> join a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and t=
he
> Access Model.
>
>
>
> Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may
> have) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of
> infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open to be prov=
en
> wrong.
>
>
>
> Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been
> more instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer
> and behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the
> case in some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones =
as
> well. So the level of economic development overall is a key variable.
>
> As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here=
,
> but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced and th=
at
> can add to the discussion.
>
> - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report:
> https://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018
> report will be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key
> questions relevant to this discussion, specially on costs associated with
> infrastructure investment
>
> - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges:
> https://a4ai..org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/
> 
>
> - For those interested in USFs in Africa, see
> https://a4ai.org/universal-service-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource-=
to-close-the-gender-digital-divide/
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Sonia Jorge
>
> Executive Director, A4AI
>
> Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation
>
> 1-617-905-7819
>
>
> On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter  > wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service
> Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have
> worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.
> Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces
> off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service
> provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship
> to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a
> communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets
> and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in
> various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar
> difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit
> theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information
> asymmetries?
>
> As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
> C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also
> incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's
> fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a
> few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is
> fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the
> main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in
> the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile
> infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors
> have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where
> there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I
> misunderstanding something?
>
> best regards,
>
> Amelia
>
>
>
> On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:
>
> Hi Mallory,
>
>
>
> Thanks for that!  I think you are on exactly the right track in terms
>
> of thinking about economic models.  Thanks to Erick Huerta of
>
> Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic
>
> historian, Fernand Braudel..  Braudel argues that the world has three
>
> economies not one.  A global economy which is the well-known
>
> capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in
>
> theory for every player.  Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual
>
> suspects form part of this economy.  The second economy is the Local
>
> Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you
>
> live.  This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even
>
> larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local
>
> demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global
>
> Economy.  The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market
>
> forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional
>
> capital to make it work..  This is the world of the informal economy
>
> with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly
>
> contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by
>
> traditional statistics.  And woven among these are both commercial and
>
> commons models, which can operate with varying success at the
>
> different levels.
>
>
>
> When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has
>
> only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is
>
> a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the
>
> Local and Subsistence economies.
>
>
>
> For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's
>
> Access Gap model
>
> . It
>
> is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;
>
> assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible
>
> outcomes.
>
>
>
> Writing more about this shortly.
>
>
>
> Cheers... Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel 
> >> wrote:
>
>
>
>    Hi Steve,
>
>
>
>    Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I
>
>    think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that
>
>    could be another post in and of itself..
>
>
>
>    The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a
>
>    sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and
>
>    profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to
>
>    call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to
>
>    socialist, and even (back to) the commons!
>
>
>
>    I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have
>
>    raised
>
>    issues of centralisation on the list in the past.
>
>
>
>    -Mallory
>
>
>
>    On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre
>
> infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about
>
> everywhere).
>
>
>
> https://manypossibilities..net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/
> 
>
>
>
> Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other
>
>    reactions
>
> you may have.
>
>
>
> Thanks..... Steve Song
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> gaia mailing list
>
> gaia@irtf.org >
>
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    --
>
>    Mallory Knodel
>
>    Head of Digital :: article19.org 
>
>    gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780
>
>
>
>    _______________________________________________
>
>    gaia mailing list
>
>    gaia@irtf.org >
>
>    https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> +1 902 529 0046
>
> stevesong@nsrc.org >
>
> http://nsrc..org 
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> hrpc mailing list
>
> hrpc@irtf.org
>
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>
>
>
> --
> Amelia Andersdotter
> Technical Consultant, Digital Programme
>
> ARTICLE19
> www.article19.org
>
> PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
> gaia@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
> gaia@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> +1 902 529 0046
>
> stevesong@nsrc.org
>
> http://nsrc..org 
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
> gaia@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
> gaia@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>
>
>
> --
> Leandro Navarro
> http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro  http://dsg..ac.upc.edu
> 
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
> gaia@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>
>
>
> --
>
> Carlos Rey-Moreno, PhD
>
> "Community and Local Access Networks" Project Coordinator
> Association for Progressive Communications
>
> https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-conn=
ect-themselves
> 
>
> Cel: +27 (0) 76 986 3633
> Skype: carlos.reymoreno Twitter: Creym
>
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
> gaia@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>
>
>
> --
>
> Public Key: https://flowcrypt.com/pub/kheimerl@cs.washington.edu
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
> gaia@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>

--00000000000043a2eb0578fdaad9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Jane,

As you know, A4AI has put a lo=
t of thought into USFs across the regions, with a focus on making them effe=
ctive and accountable mechanisms to deliver universal access through multip=
le options (including community access, networks, public wifi support, etc.=
), but also focusing on targeted groups, e.g., women and girls.
<=
br>
Not sure if anyone on our team is available to support the Ba=
ngkok discussion but will check and let you know.

=
As for your very good questions, I am not sure I have an answer. I can tell=
 you that we are certainly trying and have had some interest, but takes tim=
e to do this at a scale that you can see impact. As I believe I shared earl=
ier, we are planning to do this in the ECOWAS countries and are currently d=
oing it in Mozambique.

Happy to discuss further!
Best,
Sonia Jorge
Executive Director,=C2=
=A0=
Alliance for Affordable Internet
Head of Digital Inclusion Program, =
Web Foundation
a4ai.org=C2=A0Twitter: @A4A_internet
PGP: 8B995609B48715A3

World Wide Web Foundation |=C2=A01110 Vermont Ave NW, Suite 500, Washington DC 200=
05, USA |=C2=A0www.webfoundation.org=C2=A0| Twitter=
: @webfoundation


On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 8:28 AM Jane Coffin <coffin@isoc.org> wrote:
Arzak =E2=80=93
=C2=A0
<=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">Spot on.=C2=A0 I hav=
e seen this as well in many countries.
We also know of a story (all to=
o common) where a small island nation adopted an USF Regulation, and did no=
t develop procedures or rules/sub-regulations to implement the regulation.=
=C2=A0 When a small networking project applied for funds, the process took =
a year due to the need to establish regs and to wrangle the funds out of th=
e regulator.=C2=A0 
=C2=A0
I have 2 asks from the GAIA community:=
=C2=A0 
ASK 1:=C2=A0 Would any of you like to speak at the upcoming GA=
IA session on this topic (remotely or in person in Bangkok)?<=
/span>
GAIA @IET=
F103 will be Tuesday, 6 November 2018
Afternoon Session I 1350-1550 (=
=3D0630 UTC, Tuesday, 6 Nov).
 
ASK 2:=C2=A0 Carlos suggested we =
include more about USF/USO in a GAIA output.=C2=A0 Note Leandro=E2=80=99s e=
mail from a few weeks ago about putting a document together.=C2=A0 <=
u>
=C2=A0
USF/USO also begs these other questions:
=

-Should governments=
 start new funds that are more flexible to support the development of IXPs =
and Community Networks/Muni networks? Given that it could take years for so=
me governments to change USF and other rules/procedures/regs/processes?<=
/u>
-How can we light a fire under the toes of big funders to urge them to su=
pport funding smaller projects where we provide business/management and fin=
/management training (Many of our organizations could help them develop thi=
s ancillary training).=C2=A0 
=C2=A0
Best,
Jane
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org
=
Skype: =C2=A0janercoffin
Mobile/WhatsApp: =C2=
=A0+1.202.247.8429
=C2=
=A0
From: gaia <gaia-bounces@irtf.org> on behalf of Arzak Khan <director@ipop.org.pk>=

Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 5:17 AM
To: Kurti=
s Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>, Carlos Rey-Moreno <carlos.reymoreno@gmail.co=
m>
Cc: "gaia@irtf.org" <gaia@irtf.org>, "vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org"=
 <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Steve Song <stevesong@nsrc.org>, "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>, Lea=
ndro Navarro <le=
andro@ac.upc.edu>
Subject: Re: [gaia] [hrpc] Fibre Feudali=
sm
=C2=A0<=
u>
The utilization of USF funds has been an issue in Pakistan wh=
ere Ministry of IT and Telecoms has used the fund for building cricket stad=
iums, distributing smartphones to government employees and many other proje=
cts which has not impacted greatly on provisioning of broadband services in=
 most of rural Pakistan. Building out fiber networks still remain a challen=
ge and limited to few players only without promoting any competition.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Arzak=C2=A0
=C2=A0
From: hrpc <<=
a href=3D"mailto:hrpc-bounces@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">hrpc-bounces@irtf=
.org> on behalf of Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>
=
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 6:44 AM
To: Carlos Rey-Moreno<=
br>Cc: gaia; vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Steve Song; hrpc@irtf.org; Leandro NavarroSubject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism 
=C2=A0
=

I thought it worth noting that some of my exper=
iences have been different than Carlos's; for example in an unnamed cen=
tral asian country the regulator mentioned that the USF distribution is set=
 in policy and they must, by law, return the money to the telecoms. Even in=
 those with the ability to put the money elsewhere, there were occasionally=
 structures that push the regulator to fund "related" but non-com=
petitive services like computer or internet literacy. Tricky space with a l=
ot of moving pieces.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Sun, Oct 21=
, 2018 at 10:58 PM Carlos Rey-Moreno <carlos.reymoreno@gmail..com> wrote:=

Hi all, interesting debate indeed, and happy=
 to join a further call on this, or even work in a document where we can co=
nsolidate these discussions. 
=C2=A0
After havin=
g engaged with several regulators, and managers/officials from universal ac=
cess agencies in Africa this year, my main take away is that they keep on u=
sing USO to incentivize incumbents to go to rural areas because that's =
the only way they know. Once they are presented with alternative models lik=
e the ones mentioned by Leandro, they are very open, in principle, to explo=
re them. They are the ones who know how ineffective the current models are,=
 but in most cases they are, as Steve points out, constrained by frameworks=
 that only allow to use the fund to those who contribute to it. <=
/u>
=C2=A0
I think, at least in Africa, there is a very intere=
sting opportunity to work together with USAF managers/officials to discuss =
an potentially implement innovative ways of using them. Consolidating the k=
nowledge in this discussion and others in a working document, with the diff=
erent advocates in the region speaking proposing the same thing, could cont=
ribute a lot in this direction.
=C2=A0
best, =

=C2=A0
carlos
=C2=A0
On=
 Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 19:29, Leandro Navarro <leandro@ac.upc.edu> wrote:
Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country policy)=
 goes in the opposite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form of su=
bsidy or tax deduction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal monopo=
ly. The typical government argument is that USO is paid by industry, that r=
eflects this privilege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the inc=
umbent only (everyone pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). In co=
nsequence, the incumbent does the minimum required to justify receiving the=
 funds to preserve the pool of unconnected as a source of future USO income=
 (the serfs of the feudal system). 
For examp=
le, one fibre community network but can be any alternative operator to the =
incumbent, fears the effect of that:=C2=A0https://www.ispreview.co..uk/index.php=
/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadband-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.ht=
ml
That=E2=80=99s why USO as implemented can be cou=
nter effective. Alternative models of distribution, radically different, ar=
e needed, where all the funds are not given to a single operator (and deter=
 investment by others), but to every citizen that qualifies (to free the se=
rfs). Bottom-up (people centred) instead of top-down (incumbent centred). S=
omething along those lines may contribute to increase alternatives and not =
just be used to mainly reinforce the de-facto monopoly of largest operators=
 (for example:=C2=A0https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/=C2=A0) Otherwise U=
SO policies are mainly a form of public subsidy, a form of monopoly, to rei=
nforce the incumbent, with the excuse of the underserved and unconnected.
Leandro.


On 21 Oc=
t 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wro=
te:
=C2=A0
<=
div>
Steve is spot on. 
V
=
=C2=A0
On Sun, Oct 21, 20=
18, 09:53 Steve Song <stevesong@nsrc.org> wrote:
Hi Amel=
ia, Sonia, 
=C2=A0
I agree this is a very interesting =
and timely debate and I would be happy to participate in a discussion on th=
is.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0
Universal service funds =
that involve (or in many cases are legally restricted to) giving money back=
 to the incumbents to build out infrastructure has proven (over and over an=
d over again) to be a terrible idea.=C2=A0 I hope we can agree that we shou=
ld stop doing that.=C2=A0 For me the issue is about power and control and t=
he way it is used to impede competition.=C2=A0 The cost of technology has p=
lummeted in both fibre and wireless technologies.=C2=A0 In theory that shou=
ld have been a boon for competition but high spectrum auction fees and lice=
nses along with exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost =
impenetrable barrier to market entry.=C2=A0 Any government intervention in =
universal service should obliged to address the issue of market permeabilit=
y as well as ownership of and access to core networks.
=C2=A0
Cheers... Steve
=C2=A0
On Sat, 20=
 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org> wrote:=

Hi All, 
=C2=A0
Interesting =
discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference call among int=
erested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy to join a stimul=
ating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and the Access Model=
.=C2=A0
=C2=A0=

Amelia, can you point me to some =
evidence or a paper (anything you may have) that shows that relationship be=
tween USO and quality of infrastructure? I find that very difficult to beli=
eve but open to be proven wrong.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
So=
mething important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been mor=
e instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer and b=
ehind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the case in=
 some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well. =
So the level of economic development overall is a key variable.=C2=A0
As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here=
, but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced and th=
at can add to the discussion.=C2=A0
- A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report:=C2=A0https:=
//a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 report=
 will be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key questions rele=
vant to this discussion, specially on costs associated with infrastructure =
investment
- a recent bl=
og on infrastructure costs and challenges:=C2=A0https://=
a4ai..org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/<=
/p>
=C2=A0
B=
est,
Sonia Jorge 
Executive Director, A4AI<=
/u>
Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Fou=
ndation
1-617-905-7819<=
u>

On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19..org> wrote:
Hi all,

It might be =
helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service
Obligations ha=
ve been extensively used and applied, also typically have
worse infrastr=
ucture than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.
Applying USO=
 means you put the government in a position where it faces
off with the =
service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service
provider has in=
formation advantage and typically a better relationship
to its consumers=
 than the government has to its citizens (so a
communications advantage =
too). I lack experience of the African markets
and their regulators, but=
 in broad strokes those are the issues faced in
various European jurisdi=
ctions with USO and I'm assuming similar
difficulties would arise in=
 the African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curiou=
s how to avoid these information
asymmetries?

As it is described =
by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
C all collaborate a=
s soon as they own physical fibre networks) also
incentivises many actor=
s to get into the infrastructure market. That's
fundamentally a good=
 thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a
few big actors who =
need to be regulated by a regulator who is
fundamentally at a disadvanta=
ge compared to the big actors. It's the
main criticism targetting th=
e Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in
the EU as well - challengers d=
on't invest enough in last-mile
infrastructure (except in those EU m=
arkets where many different actors
have had regulatory incentives to bui=
ld their own networks, or where
there has been purposeful public investm=
ent in last-mile). Or am I
misunderstanding something?

best regar=
ds,

Amelia



On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:
=

Hi Mallory,
=C2=A0
Thanks for that!=C2=A0 I thi=
nk you are on exactly the right track in terms
of thinking about economic models.=C2=A0 Thanks to Erick Huerta of=

Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the=
 thinking of French economic
historian=
, Fernand Braudel..=C2=A0 Braudel argues that the world has three=

economies not one.=C2=A0 A global economy which=
 is the well-known
capitalist economic=
 model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in
theory for every player.=C2=A0 Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all t=
he usual
suspects form part of this ec=
onomy.=C2=A0 The second economy is the Local
=

Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you<=
u>
live.=C2=A0 This might be your local b=
utcher, baker, plumbers or even
<=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">larger service provider which offers services that gr=
ow out of local
demand and which serve=
 local needs in more unique ways than the Global
Economy.=C2=A0 The third economy is the Subsistence economy wher=
e market
forces may not operate becaus=
e there is not sufficient traditional
=
capital to make it work..=C2=A0 This is the world of the informal economy
with barters, cooperatives, community i=
nitiatives that directly
contribute to=
 the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by
traditional statistics.=C2=A0 And woven among these are both=
 commercial and
commons models, which =
can operate with varying success at the
different levels.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0
When viewed through this lens, it is =
easy to see how regulation has
only en=
abled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is
a need for enabling regulations to nurture teleco=
m initiatives in the
Local and Subsist=
ence economies.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=
=A0
For me this also highlights a key flaw in=
 models like the World Bank's
Acce=
ss Gap model
<http://blogs.worldbank.org/ic4d/the-gaps-model-and-universal-access&g=
t;.=C2=A0It
is not so much that the mo=
del is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;
assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible<=
u>
outcomes.
=C2=A0
Writing more about thi=
s shortly.
=C2=A0
Cheers... Steve
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org=

<mailto:mallory@article19.org>> wrote:
=C2=A0
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hi Steve,
=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks for sharing. I read=
 it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0think the metaphor is solid economically. And politi=
cally, well, that
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0could be another post in and of itself..
=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what w=
e have is a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sort of =
old-world economic structure that politically controls and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0profits from (what should be) the co=
mmons. This sets you up nicely to
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capita=
list to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0socialist, a=
nd even (back to) the commons!
=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'm CCing HRPC b=
ecause it might be of interest to those who have
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0raised
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0issues of centralisation on the list in the past.<=
u>
=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-Mallory
=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0On 04/10/2018 15:30, St=
eve Song wrote:
Hi all,=

=C2=A0
This is a reflection on the current state of terr=
estrial fibre
infrastructure in Sub-Saha=
ran Africa (but I think applies just about
everywhere).=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0<=
u>
https://manypossibilities..net/2018/10=
/fibre-feudalism/
=C2=A0
<=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or a=
ny other
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0reactions
you may have.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Thanks..... Steve S=
ong
=C2=A0
=

=C2=A0
______________________________=
_________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org>
=

https://=
www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=

=C2=A0
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0-- 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Mall=
ory Knodel
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Head of D=
igital :: article19.org=
 <http://article=
19.org>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gpg f=
ingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0_______________________________________________
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia mailing list<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf..org>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
-- 
+1 902 529 0046<=
u>
stevesong@nsrc.org <mailto:stevesong@nsrc.org>
<=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">http:=
//nsrc..org <http://n=
src.org>
=C2=A0
<=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
_________=
______________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


-- 
Amelia Andersdotter
=
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: =
3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


______________=
_________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/gaia
_______________________________________________
gai=
a mailing list
gaia@i=
rtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

=C2=A0
-- 
___________=
____________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/gaia
_______________________________________________
gaia mailing=
 list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
<=
/blockquote>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
________________=
_______________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/gaia


-- 
=

Carlos Rey-Moreno, PhD
"Community and Local Access Networks" Project Coordinator 
A=
ssociation for Progressive Communications
https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unco=
nnected-connect-themselves
Cel: +27 (0) 76 986 3633
Skype: carlos.reymoreno=C2=A0Twitter: Cr=
eym
=

__________=
_____________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/gaia


-- 

_______________________________________________

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--00000000000043a2eb0578fdaad9--


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From: Mallory Knodel 
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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:20:33 +0200
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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Hi,

I like the direction that this particular sub-debate is doing and after
talking to Vittorio in Barcelona and ICANN I'd just highlight two points
that have been made by both of you (and others in the thread) at one
point or another:

 * Filtering/blocking is an exception. It is, literally and by
definition, an exception. So what does a standards setting body do with
exceptions? I think it requires us to think very carefully about whether
or not a standard should treat an exception and if so, how it does that
very carefully without refactoring other standards to the lowest common
denominator.

 * Filtering/blocking (exceptions!) should be handled as close to the
end point as possible. This is anti-virus, netnanny, etc. The end user
must opt-in, have control, or at the very least have awareness and
clarity around their choice to not receive content. When it's framed
this way-- user empowerment-- it actually resonates a lot more closely
with nuanced legal positions on the human right to freedom of expression
(vs hate speech, incitement to violence, etc etc).

-Mallory


On 24/10/2018 20:27, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
>=20
> On October 24, 2018 at 14:06 vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com (Vittori=
o Bertola) wrote:
>  > > Il 23 ottobre 2018 alle 21.51 bzs@theworld.com ha scritto:
>  > >
>  > > Why would filtering at the endpoint be any more difficult than
>  > > anti-virus or netnanny services which already exist and are popula=
r?
>  >=20
>  > It's not, and it's great if you can run an endpoint security applica=
tion, but:
>  >=20
>  > 1) there are now many Internet-connected consumer devices that simpl=
y don't have the resources to run that kind of application (smart TVs, sm=
art appliances, surveillance cameras, whatever) or even don't have update=
 capabilities or local storage (two prerequisites for workable endpoint s=
ecurity);
>=20
> Oh hasn't that been a historically bad bet in the computing and
> standards world?
>=20
> I started with machines with 64KB (kilo) max memory and computing
> measured in KIPS (maybe 150 kiloinstructions/second.)
>=20
> We are engaged in a rather painful transition from IPv4 to IPv6
> because we thought 32-bits of address should be plenty and machines of
> the day could compare and move 32-bits relatively quickly.
>=20
> Now the $5 Raspberry PI zero has more computrons than entire defense
> labs had back then and smartphones more computrons than 1990s
> super-computers costing millions of dollars...Gordon Bell offered $1M
> around 1990 to anyone who could produce a machine which could sustain
> 1 teraflop...now any decent phone can do that.
>=20
> (ok, I'm an old fart, I had fun writing that, forgive me!)
>=20
>  >=20
>  > 2) even if the device allows it, running an antivirus requires atten=
tion and some skills by the user: you have to turn it on, you have not to=
 turn it off the first time it blocks a malware-infected site hosting tha=
t football match video stream that you really want to see, you have to up=
date it when it needs to, you have to renew your subscriptions, you have =
to be sure that nothing (e.g. some new malware that escaped its checks) b=
locked its functionality... not every user is going to get this right;
>=20
> No different really than e.g. Microsoft's bundled anti-virus software.
>=20
> I think one shouldn't argue against current use cases numbering in the
> billions as being unworkable.
>=20
> In many ways this "filtering" idea resembles the anti-virus software
> ecosystem: Where does the software come from, how are filters updated,
> etc.
>=20
>  >=20
>  > 3) and in many cases, unless the security is really basic, the user =
has to pay quite some money for it, which not everyone is willing to do -=
 splitting the cost of a single network-based solution among all the ISP'=
s subscribers is much more cost-effective.
>=20
> Again, MS anti-virus software comes bundled which in turn comes
> bundled with machines and their OS, few notice the cost. And third
> party anti-virus packages are popular.
>=20
> But the real point is, and speaking even as an ISP, I don't WANT the
> ISP to filter content unless I ask them to and even then. We might
> have to due to a legal order but that's different and both can go on.
>=20
> I want ISPs to only filter what is relevant to their operational or
> specific legal concerns.
>=20
> We block a lot of spam sources primarily because they often resemble a
> denial of service attack flooding our bandwidth and slowing our
> servers, not because we don't trust the quality of the content per se.
>=20
> Ok we run a virus filter and spamassassin for example also as a
> courtesy to customers but our interest is primarly operational,
> including not having our support etc have to deal with virus-infected
> customers with flooded mailboxes.
>=20
>  >=20
>  > This is why many parental control/network security services (e.g. Op=
enDNS, DNSFilter...) rather adopted the DNS filtering model, and now netw=
ork security devices for the home are appearing, e.g. Norton Core ( https=
://us.norton.com/core ): even antivirus makers are moving in that directi=
on.
>=20
> That's really little different than what I am advocating.
>=20
>  >=20
>  > Regards,
>  > --=20
>  >=20
>  > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
>  > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
>  > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
>  >=20
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > hrpc mailing list
>  > hrpc@irtf.org
>  > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>=20


--=20
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 14:13:15 +0000 (UTC)
From: Nalini J Elkins 
Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins 
To: Mallory Knodel , "hrpc@irtf.org" 
Message-ID: <1276314496.202885.1540476795875@mail.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: 
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com>  <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>  <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> <1834156870.24841.1540286662495@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23503.31686.826968.760925@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <556649813.28464.1540382769875@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23504.47483.243861.697843@gargle.gargle.HOWL> 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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------=_Part_202884_1954315831.1540476795873
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> * Filtering/blocking is an exception. It is, literally and by=C2=A0defini=
tion, an exception.=C2=A0
Agreed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As minimally intrusive as possible.=C2=A0Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

      From: Mallory Knodel 
 To: hrpc@irtf.org=20
 Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 2:20 AM
 Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter=
-00.txt
  =20
Hi,

I like the direction that this particular sub-debate is doing and after
talking to Vittorio in Barcelona and ICANN I'd just highlight two points
that have been made by both of you (and others in the thread) at one
point or another:

 * Filtering/blocking is an exception. It is, literally and by
definition, an exception. So what does a standards setting body do with
exceptions? I think it requires us to think very carefully about whether
or not a standard should treat an exception and if so, how it does that
very carefully without refactoring other standards to the lowest common
denominator.

 * Filtering/blocking (exceptions!) should be handled as close to the
end point as possible. This is anti-virus, netnanny, etc. The end user
must opt-in, have control, or at the very least have awareness and
clarity around their choice to not receive content. When it's framed
this way-- user empowerment-- it actually resonates a lot more closely
with nuanced legal positions on the human right to freedom of expression
(vs hate speech, incitement to violence, etc etc).

-Mallory


On 24/10/2018 20:27, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
>=20
> On October 24, 2018 at 14:06 vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com (Vittorio =
Bertola) wrote:
>=C2=A0 > > Il 23 ottobre 2018 alle 21.51 bzs@theworld.com ha scritto:
>=C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 > > Why would filtering at the endpoint be any more difficult than
>=C2=A0 > > anti-virus or netnanny services which already exist and are pop=
ular?
>=C2=A0 >=20
>=C2=A0 > It's not, and it's great if you can run an endpoint security appl=
ication, but:
>=C2=A0 >=20
>=C2=A0 > 1) there are now many Internet-connected consumer devices that si=
mply don't have the resources to run that kind of application (smart TVs, s=
mart appliances, surveillance cameras, whatever) or even don't have update =
capabilities or local storage (two prerequisites for workable endpoint secu=
rity);
>=20
> Oh hasn't that been a historically bad bet in the computing and
> standards world?
>=20
> I started with machines with 64KB (kilo) max memory and computing
> measured in KIPS (maybe 150 kiloinstructions/second.)
>=20
> We are engaged in a rather painful transition from IPv4 to IPv6
> because we thought 32-bits of address should be plenty and machines of
> the day could compare and move 32-bits relatively quickly.
>=20
> Now the $5 Raspberry PI zero has more computrons than entire defense
> labs had back then and smartphones more computrons than 1990s
> super-computers costing millions of dollars...Gordon Bell offered $1M
> around 1990 to anyone who could produce a machine which could sustain
> 1 teraflop...now any decent phone can do that.
>=20
> (ok, I'm an old fart, I had fun writing that, forgive me!)
>=20
>=C2=A0 >=20
>=C2=A0 > 2) even if the device allows it, running an antivirus requires at=
tention and some skills by the user: you have to turn it on, you have not t=
o turn it off the first time it blocks a malware-infected site hosting that=
 football match video stream that you really want to see, you have to updat=
e it when it needs to, you have to renew your subscriptions, you have to be=
 sure that nothing (e.g. some new malware that escaped its checks) blocked =
its functionality... not every user is going to get this right;
>=20
> No different really than e.g. Microsoft's bundled anti-virus software.
>=20
> I think one shouldn't argue against current use cases numbering in the
> billions as being unworkable.
>=20
> In many ways this "filtering" idea resembles the anti-virus software
> ecosystem: Where does the software come from, how are filters updated,
> etc.
>=20
>=C2=A0 >=20
>=C2=A0 > 3) and in many cases, unless the security is really basic, the us=
er has to pay quite some money for it, which not everyone is willing to do =
- splitting the cost of a single network-based solution among all the ISP's=
 subscribers is much more cost-effective.
>=20
> Again, MS anti-virus software comes bundled which in turn comes
> bundled with machines and their OS, few notice the cost. And third
> party anti-virus packages are popular.
>=20
> But the real point is, and speaking even as an ISP, I don't WANT the
> ISP to filter content unless I ask them to and even then. We might
> have to due to a legal order but that's different and both can go on.
>=20
> I want ISPs to only filter what is relevant to their operational or
> specific legal concerns.
>=20
> We block a lot of spam sources primarily because they often resemble a
> denial of service attack flooding our bandwidth and slowing our
> servers, not because we don't trust the quality of the content per se.
>=20
> Ok we run a virus filter and spamassassin for example also as a
> courtesy to customers but our interest is primarly operational,
> including not having our support etc have to deal with virus-infected
> customers with flooded mailboxes.
>=20
>=C2=A0 >=20
>=C2=A0 > This is why many parental control/network security services (e.g.=
 OpenDNS, DNSFilter...) rather adopted the DNS filtering model, and now net=
work security devices for the home are appearing, e.g. Norton Core ( https:=
//us.norton.com/core ): even antivirus makers are moving in that direction.
>=20
> That's really little different than what I am advocating.
>=20
>=C2=A0 >=20
>=C2=A0 > Regards,
>=C2=A0 > --=20
>=C2=A0 >=20
>=C2=A0 > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
>=C2=A0 > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
>=C2=A0 > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
>=C2=A0 >=20
>=C2=A0 > _______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 > hrpc mailing list
>=C2=A0 > hrpc@irtf.org
>=C2=A0 > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>=20


--=20
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9=C2=A0 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


  =20
------=_Part_202884_1954315831.1540476795873
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


<=
span style=3D"font-family: "Helvetica Neue", "Segoe UI"=
, Helvetica, Arial, "Lucida Grande", sans-serif; font-size: 13px;=
" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1540438251354_31461">> * Filtering/blocking is=
 an exception. It is, literally and by definition, an exception. =


=

=
Agreed.    As minimally intrusive as possible.
 
Thanks,
Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insid=
ethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


<=
/div>
  
 
 
  
 From: Mallory Knodel <mallory@article1=
9.org>
 To: hrpc@irt=
f.org 
 Sent: Thursday,=
 October 25, 2018 2:20 AM
 Subject=
: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifil=
ter-00.txt
  
 

Hi,

I like the direction that=
 this particular sub-debate is doing and after
talking to=
 Vittorio in Barcelona and ICANN I'd just highlight two points
that have been made by both of you (and others in the thread) at one<=
br clear=3D"none">point or another:

 *=
 Filtering/blocking is an exception. It is, literally and by
definition, an exception. So what does a standards setting body do with=

exceptions? I think it requires us to think very careful=
ly about whether
or not a standard should treat an except=
ion and if so, how it does that
very carefully without re=
factoring other standards to the lowest common
denominato=
r.

 * Filtering/blocking (exceptions!)=
 should be handled as close to the
end point as possible.=
 This is anti-virus, netnanny, etc. The end user
must opt=
-in, have control, or at the very least have awareness and
clarity around their choice to not receive content. When it's framed
this way-- user empowerment-- it actually resonates a lot mor=
e closely
with nuanced legal positions on the human right=
 to freedom of expression
(vs hate speech, incitement to =
violence, etc etc).

-Mallory


On 24/10/2018 20:27, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
> 
> On October 24, 2018 at 14:06 vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com (Vittorio Bertola) wrote:
>  > > Il 23 ottobre 2018 alle 21.51 bzs@theworld.com ha scritto:
>  > >>  > > Why would filtering at the endpoint be=
 any more difficult than
>  > > anti-virus =
or netnanny services which already exist and are popular?
>  > 
>  > It's not, and it's grea=
t if you can run an endpoint security application, but:
&=
gt;  > 
>  > 1) there are now many Int=
ernet-connected consumer devices that simply don't have the resources to ru=
n that kind of application (smart TVs, smart appliances, surveillance camer=
as, whatever) or even don't have update capabilities or local storage (two =
prerequisites for workable endpoint security);
> 
> Oh hasn't that been a historically bad bet in the comput=
ing and
> standards world?
> 
> I started with machines with 64KB (kilo) max memory and=
 computing
> measured in KIPS (maybe 150 kiloinstructi=
ons/second.)
> 
> We are engaged =
in a rather painful transition from IPv4 to IPv6
> bec=
ause we thought 32-bits of address should be plenty and machines of
> the day could compare and move 32-bits relatively quickly.<=
br clear=3D"none">> 
> Now the $5 Raspberry PI zero=
 has more computrons than entire defense
> labs had ba=
ck then and smartphones more computrons than 1990s
> s=
uper-computers costing millions of dollars...Gordon Bell offered $1M
> around 1990 to anyone who could produce a machine which co=
uld sustain
> 1 teraflop...now any decent phone can do=
 that.
> 
> (ok, I'm an old fart,=
 I had fun writing that, forgive me!)
> 
>  > 
>  > 2) even if the devi=
ce allows it, running an antivirus requires attention and some skills by th=
e user: you have to turn it on, you have not to turn it off the first time =
it blocks a malware-infected site hosting that football match video stream =
that you really want to see, you have to update it when it needs to, you ha=
ve to renew your subscriptions, you have to be sure that nothing (e.g. some=
 new malware that escaped its checks) blocked its functionality... not ever=
y user is going to get this right;
> 
> No different really than e.g. Microsoft's bundled anti-virus softwar=
e.
> 
> I think one shouldn't arg=
ue against current use cases numbering in the
> billio=
ns as being unworkable.
> 
> In m=
any ways this "filtering" idea resembles the anti-virus software
> ecosystem: Where does the software come from, how are filter=
s updated,
> etc.
> 
>  > 
>  > 3) and in many cas=
es, unless the security is really basic, the user has to pay quite some mon=
ey for it, which not everyone is willing to do - splitting the cost of a si=
ngle network-based solution among all the ISP's subscribers is much more co=
st-effective.
> 
> Again, MS anti=
-virus software comes bundled which in turn comes
> bu=
ndled with machines and their OS, few notice the cost. And third
> party anti-virus packages are popular.
>=
; 
> But the real point is, and speaking even as an IS=
P, I don't WANT the
> ISP to filter content unless I a=
sk them to and even then. We might
> have to due to a =
legal order but that's different and both can go on.
>=
 
> I want ISPs to only filter what is relevant to the=
ir operational or
> specific legal concerns.
> 
> We block a lot of spam sources prima=
rily because they often resemble a
> denial of service=
 attack flooding our bandwidth and slowing our
> serve=
rs, not because we don't trust the quality of the content per se.
> 
> Ok we run a virus filter and spamass=
assin for example also as a
> courtesy to customers bu=
t our interest is primarly operational,
> including no=
t having our support etc have to deal with virus-infected
> customers with flooded mailboxes.
> 
>  > 
>  > This is why many =
parental control/network security services (e.g. OpenDNS, DNSFilter...) rat=
her adopted the DNS filtering model, and now network security devices for t=
he home are appearing, e.g. Norton Core ( https://us.norton.com/core ): ev=
en antivirus makers are moving in that direction.
> > That's really little different than what I am advocat=
ing.
> 
>  > 
>  > Regards,
>  > -- 
>  > 
>  > Vittorio Be=
rtola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
>=
;  > vittorio.bertola=
@open-xchange.com
>  > Office @ Via Trevis=
o 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
>  > 
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > hrpc mailing list
>  &=
gt; hrpc@irtf.org
>  > =
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
> 


-- 
M=
allory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 =
BD3C C780

=

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


 
 
  

------=_Part_202884_1954315831.1540476795873--


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 16:56:34 -0400
From: bzs@theworld.com
To: Mallory Knodel 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
In-Reply-To: 
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com>  <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>  <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> <1834156870.24841.1540286662495@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23503.31686.826968.760925@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <556649813.28464.1540382769875@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23504.47483.243861.697843@gargle.gargle.HOWL> 
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 >  * Filtering/blocking is an exception.

By numbers, I wish filtering and blocking spam were an exception but
some estimate it's up to 90% of all email traffic which as an ISP I
believe.

But there is the issue of quantity vs quality. Blocking everything
critical of the King of Lower Slobbovia (pick a venue, Twitter,
Facebook, etc) would probably be very little traffic but could still
be significant event.

That's probably just a nit in the scheme of things.

I too have been advocating for keeping it as close to the endpoint as
possible, as you express. We agree!

A possible longer term goal is some sort of technical standards to
effect all this.

I've offered, as a broad analogy, DNS as a distributed framework but
other models exist (anti-viral, anti-spam, etc.), again as you also
express.

On October 25, 2018 at 11:20 mallory@article19.org (Mallory Knodel) wrote:
 > Hi,
 > 
 > I like the direction that this particular sub-debate is doing and after
 > talking to Vittorio in Barcelona and ICANN I'd just highlight two points
 > that have been made by both of you (and others in the thread) at one
 > point or another:
 > 
 >  * Filtering/blocking is an exception. It is, literally and by
 > definition, an exception. So what does a standards setting body do with
 > exceptions? I think it requires us to think very carefully about whether
 > or not a standard should treat an exception and if so, how it does that
 > very carefully without refactoring other standards to the lowest common
 > denominator.
 > 
 >  * Filtering/blocking (exceptions!) should be handled as close to the
 > end point as possible. This is anti-virus, netnanny, etc. The end user
 > must opt-in, have control, or at the very least have awareness and
 > clarity around their choice to not receive content. When it's framed
 > this way-- user empowerment-- it actually resonates a lot more closely
 > with nuanced legal positions on the human right to freedom of expression
 > (vs hate speech, incitement to violence, etc etc).
 > 
 > -Mallory
 > 
 > 
 > On 24/10/2018 20:27, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
 > > 
 > > On October 24, 2018 at 14:06 vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com (Vittorio Bertola) wrote:
 > >  > > Il 23 ottobre 2018 alle 21.51 bzs@theworld.com ha scritto:
 > >  > >
 > >  > > Why would filtering at the endpoint be any more difficult than
 > >  > > anti-virus or netnanny services which already exist and are popular?
 > >  > 
 > >  > It's not, and it's great if you can run an endpoint security application, but:
 > >  > 
 > >  > 1) there are now many Internet-connected consumer devices that simply don't have the resources to run that kind of application (smart TVs, smart appliances, surveillance cameras, whatever) or even don't have update capabilities or local storage (two prerequisites for workable endpoint security);
 > > 
 > > Oh hasn't that been a historically bad bet in the computing and
 > > standards world?
 > > 
 > > I started with machines with 64KB (kilo) max memory and computing
 > > measured in KIPS (maybe 150 kiloinstructions/second.)
 > > 
 > > We are engaged in a rather painful transition from IPv4 to IPv6
 > > because we thought 32-bits of address should be plenty and machines of
 > > the day could compare and move 32-bits relatively quickly.
 > > 
 > > Now the $5 Raspberry PI zero has more computrons than entire defense
 > > labs had back then and smartphones more computrons than 1990s
 > > super-computers costing millions of dollars...Gordon Bell offered $1M
 > > around 1990 to anyone who could produce a machine which could sustain
 > > 1 teraflop...now any decent phone can do that.
 > > 
 > > (ok, I'm an old fart, I had fun writing that, forgive me!)
 > > 
 > >  > 
 > >  > 2) even if the device allows it, running an antivirus requires attention and some skills by the user: you have to turn it on, you have not to turn it off the first time it blocks a malware-infected site hosting that football match video stream that you really want to see, you have to update it when it needs to, you have to renew your subscriptions, you have to be sure that nothing (e.g. some new malware that escaped its checks) blocked its functionality... not every user is going to get this right;
 > > 
 > > No different really than e.g. Microsoft's bundled anti-virus software.
 > > 
 > > I think one shouldn't argue against current use cases numbering in the
 > > billions as being unworkable.
 > > 
 > > In many ways this "filtering" idea resembles the anti-virus software
 > > ecosystem: Where does the software come from, how are filters updated,
 > > etc.
 > > 
 > >  > 
 > >  > 3) and in many cases, unless the security is really basic, the user has to pay quite some money for it, which not everyone is willing to do - splitting the cost of a single network-based solution among all the ISP's subscribers is much more cost-effective.
 > > 
 > > Again, MS anti-virus software comes bundled which in turn comes
 > > bundled with machines and their OS, few notice the cost. And third
 > > party anti-virus packages are popular.
 > > 
 > > But the real point is, and speaking even as an ISP, I don't WANT the
 > > ISP to filter content unless I ask them to and even then. We might
 > > have to due to a legal order but that's different and both can go on.
 > > 
 > > I want ISPs to only filter what is relevant to their operational or
 > > specific legal concerns.
 > > 
 > > We block a lot of spam sources primarily because they often resemble a
 > > denial of service attack flooding our bandwidth and slowing our
 > > servers, not because we don't trust the quality of the content per se.
 > > 
 > > Ok we run a virus filter and spamassassin for example also as a
 > > courtesy to customers but our interest is primarly operational,
 > > including not having our support etc have to deal with virus-infected
 > > customers with flooded mailboxes.
 > > 
 > >  > 
 > >  > This is why many parental control/network security services (e.g. OpenDNS, DNSFilter...) rather adopted the DNS filtering model, and now network security devices for the home are appearing, e.g. Norton Core ( https://us.norton.com/core ): even antivirus makers are moving in that direction.
 > > 
 > > That's really little different than what I am advocating.
 > > 
 > >  > 
 > >  > Regards,
 > >  > -- 
 > >  > 
 > >  > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
 > >  > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
 > >  > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
 > >  > 
 > >  > _______________________________________________
 > >  > hrpc mailing list
 > >  > hrpc@irtf.org
 > >  > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
 > > 
 > 
 > 
 > -- 
 > Mallory Knodel
 > Head of Digital :: article19.org
 > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > hrpc mailing list
 > hrpc@irtf.org
 > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@TheWorld.com             | http://www.TheWorld.com
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The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*


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To: bzs@theworld.com, Mallory Knodel 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com>  <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>  <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> <1834156870.24841.1540286662495@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23503.31686.826968.760925@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <556649813.28464.1540382769875@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23504.47483.243861.697843@gargle.gargle.HOWL>  <23506.11778.780337.939257@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
From: Eliot Lear 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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I think the key issue here is about who and where, not mechanism.

Eliot


On 25.10.18 22:56, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
>  >  * Filtering/blocking is an exception.
>
> By numbers, I wish filtering and blocking spam were an exception but
> some estimate it's up to 90% of all email traffic which as an ISP I
> believe.
>
> But there is the issue of quantity vs quality. Blocking everything
> critical of the King of Lower Slobbovia (pick a venue, Twitter,
> Facebook, etc) would probably be very little traffic but could still
> be significant event.
>
> That's probably just a nit in the scheme of things.
>
> I too have been advocating for keeping it as close to the endpoint as
> possible, as you express. We agree!
>
> A possible longer term goal is some sort of technical standards to
> effect all this.
>
> I've offered, as a broad analogy, DNS as a distributed framework but
> other models exist (anti-viral, anti-spam, etc.), again as you also
> express.
>
> On October 25, 2018 at 11:20 mallory@article19.org (Mallory Knodel) wrote:
>  > Hi,
>  > 
>  > I like the direction that this particular sub-debate is doing and after
>  > talking to Vittorio in Barcelona and ICANN I'd just highlight two points
>  > that have been made by both of you (and others in the thread) at one
>  > point or another:
>  > 
>  >  * Filtering/blocking is an exception. It is, literally and by
>  > definition, an exception. So what does a standards setting body do with
>  > exceptions? I think it requires us to think very carefully about whether
>  > or not a standard should treat an exception and if so, how it does that
>  > very carefully without refactoring other standards to the lowest common
>  > denominator.
>  > 
>  >  * Filtering/blocking (exceptions!) should be handled as close to the
>  > end point as possible. This is anti-virus, netnanny, etc. The end user
>  > must opt-in, have control, or at the very least have awareness and
>  > clarity around their choice to not receive content. When it's framed
>  > this way-- user empowerment-- it actually resonates a lot more closely
>  > with nuanced legal positions on the human right to freedom of expression
>  > (vs hate speech, incitement to violence, etc etc).
>  > 
>  > -Mallory
>  > 
>  > 
>  > On 24/10/2018 20:27, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
>  > > 
>  > > On October 24, 2018 at 14:06 vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com (Vittorio Bertola) wrote:
>  > >  > > Il 23 ottobre 2018 alle 21.51 bzs@theworld.com ha scritto:
>  > >  > >
>  > >  > > Why would filtering at the endpoint be any more difficult than
>  > >  > > anti-virus or netnanny services which already exist and are popular?
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > It's not, and it's great if you can run an endpoint security application, but:
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > 1) there are now many Internet-connected consumer devices that simply don't have the resources to run that kind of application (smart TVs, smart appliances, surveillance cameras, whatever) or even don't have update capabilities or local storage (two prerequisites for workable endpoint security);
>  > > 
>  > > Oh hasn't that been a historically bad bet in the computing and
>  > > standards world?
>  > > 
>  > > I started with machines with 64KB (kilo) max memory and computing
>  > > measured in KIPS (maybe 150 kiloinstructions/second.)
>  > > 
>  > > We are engaged in a rather painful transition from IPv4 to IPv6
>  > > because we thought 32-bits of address should be plenty and machines of
>  > > the day could compare and move 32-bits relatively quickly.
>  > > 
>  > > Now the $5 Raspberry PI zero has more computrons than entire defense
>  > > labs had back then and smartphones more computrons than 1990s
>  > > super-computers costing millions of dollars...Gordon Bell offered $1M
>  > > around 1990 to anyone who could produce a machine which could sustain
>  > > 1 teraflop...now any decent phone can do that.
>  > > 
>  > > (ok, I'm an old fart, I had fun writing that, forgive me!)
>  > > 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > 2) even if the device allows it, running an antivirus requires attention and some skills by the user: you have to turn it on, you have not to turn it off the first time it blocks a malware-infected site hosting that football match video stream that you really want to see, you have to update it when it needs to, you have to renew your subscriptions, you have to be sure that nothing (e.g. some new malware that escaped its checks) blocked its functionality... not every user is going to get this right;
>  > > 
>  > > No different really than e.g. Microsoft's bundled anti-virus software.
>  > > 
>  > > I think one shouldn't argue against current use cases numbering in the
>  > > billions as being unworkable.
>  > > 
>  > > In many ways this "filtering" idea resembles the anti-virus software
>  > > ecosystem: Where does the software come from, how are filters updated,
>  > > etc.
>  > > 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > 3) and in many cases, unless the security is really basic, the user has to pay quite some money for it, which not everyone is willing to do - splitting the cost of a single network-based solution among all the ISP's subscribers is much more cost-effective.
>  > > 
>  > > Again, MS anti-virus software comes bundled which in turn comes
>  > > bundled with machines and their OS, few notice the cost. And third
>  > > party anti-virus packages are popular.
>  > > 
>  > > But the real point is, and speaking even as an ISP, I don't WANT the
>  > > ISP to filter content unless I ask them to and even then. We might
>  > > have to due to a legal order but that's different and both can go on.
>  > > 
>  > > I want ISPs to only filter what is relevant to their operational or
>  > > specific legal concerns.
>  > > 
>  > > We block a lot of spam sources primarily because they often resemble a
>  > > denial of service attack flooding our bandwidth and slowing our
>  > > servers, not because we don't trust the quality of the content per se.
>  > > 
>  > > Ok we run a virus filter and spamassassin for example also as a
>  > > courtesy to customers but our interest is primarly operational,
>  > > including not having our support etc have to deal with virus-infected
>  > > customers with flooded mailboxes.
>  > > 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > This is why many parental control/network security services (e.g. OpenDNS, DNSFilter...) rather adopted the DNS filtering model, and now network security devices for the home are appearing, e.g. Norton Core ( https://us.norton.com/core ): even antivirus makers are moving in that direction.
>  > > 
>  > > That's really little different than what I am advocating.
>  > > 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > Regards,
>  > >  > -- 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
>  > >  > vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
>  > >  > Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > _______________________________________________
>  > >  > hrpc mailing list
>  > >  > hrpc@irtf.org
>  > >  > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>  > > 
>  > 
>  > 
>  > -- 
>  > Mallory Knodel
>  > Head of Digital :: article19.org
>  > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780
>  > 
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > hrpc mailing list
>  > hrpc@irtf.org
>  > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>


From nobody Fri Oct 26 07:22:26 2018
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From: Mallory Knodel 
To: pitg@lists.mayfirst.org, hrpc@irtf.org, gaia@ietfa.amsl.com, hr-rt@irtf.org
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Subject: [hrpc] IETF 103 PITG schedule (draft, please add)
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Hi everyone,

As promised, below is a handy schedule that I've put together with info
of the meetings and events that might be of interest to engaged or
potentially engaged folks at the IETF 103 in Bangkok.

Please send any additions to the schedule to the list.

And please feel free to circulate to folks who are coming to Bangkok.

=3D=3D=3D

3-9 November | IETF 103 | Marriott Marquis Queen=E2=80=99s Park

 * Register here: https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/register
 * Full agenda here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/agenda.html

3-4 November @ 9:00-22:00 | IETF Hackathon | Room Sala Thai Ballroom

 * Don't forget to register here:
https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf103/hackathonregistration.py
 * Hackathon wiki page including "Public interest technology" group work
items:
https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/103hackathon
 * Alp's write up of the hackathon objectives:
https://netblocks.org/news/rights-and-privacy-next-generation-internet-pr=
otocol-stack-ietf103-WRAeVWBg

4 November @ 10:00-11:30 | Human Rights Review Team meeting | Hackathon

4 November @ 20:30 | PITG post-Hackathon dinner | Khing Klao

 * RSVP to alp@netblocks.org

5 November @ 9:00-11:00 | HRPC | Chitlada 1

 * Agenda will be here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/agenda-103-hrpc-00

5 November @ 17:00-19:00 | PITG meeting | Room Pagoda

5 November @ 19:30 | PITG dinner | Veganerie Concept

 * No RSVP required
 * Location: Behide Benjasiri Park, tel 02-258-8489

6 November @ 13:50-15:50 | GAIA | Room Meeting 2

 * Agenda will be here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/agenda-103-gaia-00

7 November @ 15:40-17:10 | PEARG | Room Meeting 1

 * Agenda is here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/agenda-103-pearg-01

8 November @ 16:00-18:00 | Oppressive Terminology side mtg | Room Pagoda

 * Read the draft here: =E2=80=8B
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-knodel-terminology

--=20
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


From nobody Fri Oct 26 11:42:59 2018
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From: bzs@theworld.com
To: Eliot Lear 
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On October 26, 2018 at 09:55 lear@cisco.com (Eliot Lear) wrote:
 > I think the key issue here is about who and where, not mechanism.

I'd agree the issues will be resolved in roughly that order, no point
in expending great effort on the details of a mechanism unless there's
some sort of common vision on what should be done.

But I think there's use in thumbnailing a mechanism even if just to
answer "how would such a thing even work?!"

Note that some have expressed here that moving it out to the endpoints
would be unworkable for people so drawing (strong) analogies to DNS,
anti-virus and similar software seems like it should allay such
concerns at least as deal-killers.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@TheWorld.com             | http://www.TheWorld.com
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From nobody Fri Oct 26 11:48:40 2018
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To: bzs@theworld.com
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References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <120652888.78813.1539834597442@mail.yahoo.com> <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com> <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com>  <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>  <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> <1834156870.24841.1540286662495@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23503.31686.826968.760925@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <556649813.28464.1540382769875@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23504.47483.243861.697843@gargle.gargle.HOWL>  <23506.11778.780337.939257@gargle.gargle.HOWL>  <23507.24591.761090.427494@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
From: Eliot Lear 
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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 20:48:34 +0200
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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Hi Barry,


On 26.10.18 20:42, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
> On October 26, 2018 at 09:55 lear@cisco.com (Eliot Lear) wrote:
>  > I think the key issue here is about who and where, not mechanism.
>
> I'd agree the issues will be resolved in roughly that order, no point
> in expending great effort on the details of a mechanism unless there's
> some sort of common vision on what should be done.
>
> But I think there's use in thumbnailing a mechanism even if just to
> answer "how would such a thing even work?!"

I think that's fair, and the more specific the better, if it actually is
being used today.

>
> Note that some have expressed here that moving it out to the endpoints
> would be unworkable for people so drawing (strong) analogies to DNS,
> anti-virus and similar software seems like it should allay such
> concerns at least as deal-killers.
>
I'm having difficulty parsing this sentence.  My view is that some
functions cannot or should not reasonably be performed on end systems
(cf spam filtering).  But that doesn't meant that the user shouldn't
have visibility to what is being done.  That's a hard problem unto itself.

Eliot


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To: Eliot Lear , bzs@theworld.com
Cc: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org
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From: Stephen Farrell 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Eliot Lear , bzs@theworld.com
Cc: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for
 draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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Hiya,

On 26/10/2018 19:48, Eliot Lear wrote:
>  My view is that some
> functions cannot or should not reasonably be performed on end systems
> (cf spam filtering).=C2=A0

I'm not sure I'd agree as there are junk/spam reporting
buttons in most MUAs, but moreso as the mail ecosystem,
being one that really connects any mail sender to any
mail recipient via highly capable mail intermediaries,
is not at all the same as protocols that are intended
to operate without such intermediaries, and that typically
do not have to attempt to allow message delivery from
anywhere to anywhere. And of course we have decades of
not getting rid of spam to perhaps help convince us that
not all is well in the anti-spam world.

So we need to be a bit careful what lessons we try read
from spam filtering.

Cheers,
S.

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From: Eliot Lear 
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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 23:38:54 +0200
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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On 26.10.18 21:59, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> Hiya,
>
> On 26/10/2018 19:48, Eliot Lear wrote:
>>  My view is that some
>> functions cannot or should not reasonably be performed on end systems
>> (cf spam filtering). 
> I'm not sure I'd agree as there are junk/spam reporting
> buttons in most MUAs, 

As you know, by the time the mail is delivered the harm is largely
done.  In fact that was a very interesting paper by Stefan Savage and
friends some time ago about pharma spam.  We couldn't weed the stuff out
fast enough, with whatever blocking mechanism because these people had
made their money in 72 hours on already-delivered mail.  It's an
interesting area because it argues for retroactive removal of stuff in
peoples' mailboxes.

ButI think there is another issue lurking here with regard to the email
system.  While the protocols allow for agency and permission etc, at
least at the host level, a vast swathe of people just use gmail and
yahoo for their mail, meaning that they are choke points for filtering
in a way that we might not like.  And it's not that easy to change your
email address.  In fact it's a pain in the butt.  That topic may be
worth exploring a bit.

Eliot


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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 17:49:21 -0400
From: bzs@theworld.com
To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: bzs@theworld.com, Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org
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On October 26, 2018 at 20:48 lear@cisco.com (Eliot Lear) wrote:
 > > Note that some have expressed here that moving it out to the endpo=
ints
 > > would be unworkable for people so drawing (strong) analogies to DN=
S,
 > > anti-virus and similar software seems like it should allay such
 > > concerns at least as deal-killers.
 > >
 > I'm having difficulty parsing this sentence.=A0 My view is that some=

 > functions cannot or should not reasonably be performed on end system=
s
 > (cf spam filtering).=A0 But that doesn't meant that the user shouldn=
't
 > have visibility to what is being done.=A0 That's a hard problem unto=
 itself.

Sorry, I just meant that other services are controlled at the endpoint
such as spam and antivirus. Not all aspects of them but nonetheless
they are endpoint applications for many -- I think it's safe to say
"billions" of endpoints.

So the proposal that filtering and blocking be as much at the
endpoints as possible certainly has its analogues, and in production.

I've mentioned for example legal takedowns which arguably have to
occur in middleboxes if not at the core services depending on where
control can be exerted.

But much of the content discussed for filtering and blocking such as
"objectionable content" is largely in the eyes of the beholder even if
that means many eyes with the same opinion -- "many" still doesn't
/prima facie/ argue for centralized blocking.

And, as with spam, viruses, etc hybrid solutions are not only possible
but likely desirable.

For example an application on an endpoint which queries a service
about certain qualities of a host or content about to be accessed (we
already have this in web malware avoidance) and might automatically
block certain content or entire hosts via something like a netnanny
program or just warn.

Or a proxy or even content-originating service which tags content
continuously in a way that an endpoint application can filter.

For example the well-known NSFW tag often added voluntarily by the
content creator or distributor.

Much of that, I will argue, should be under the control of the
endpoint.

If one is ok with NSFW-tagged material then shut off any filtering of
that in your endpoint application, if not then enable that filter. &c.

--=20
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@TheWorld.com             | http://www.TheW=
orld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD       | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*


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From: bzs@theworld.com
To: Stephen Farrell 
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On October 26, 2018 at 20:59 stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie (Stephen Farrell) wrote:
 > So we need to be a bit careful what lessons we try read
 > from spam filtering.

Indeed, spam is the repeated warning shot across everyone's bow.

Gilmore's famous comment that "the internet views censorship as damage
and routes around it" is very much true of spam as we've seen where
"the internet" is obviously intended as a metonymy for everyone who
has access to the internet, including spammers.

In our mind's eye we continue to imagine qualities of the internet
which simply may not exist.

Just as certain FBI directors imagined that an encryption protocol
should exist which is safe for desirable use but contains a backdoor
for law enforcement.

Such an easily understood concept! Why not? Like a good door lock
which also provides a master key to those authorized.

Yet one cryptography expert after another has warned that as simple as
that might seem it's impossible with current technology, and may be
impossible with any technology.

Similar for filtering and blocking, at least based on our experience
with spam.

It's the scaling problem writ big.

Nonetheless there might be value in producing standards around what
might be folly if for no other reason than to minimize collateral
damage from really dumb and/or ham-handed attempts, including simply
productivity waste re-inventing the square wheel endlessly. And surely
that's one major function of most engineering standards.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@TheWorld.com             | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD       | 800-THE-WRLD
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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 18:14:28 -0400
From: bzs@theworld.com
To: Eliot Lear 
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In-Reply-To: 
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On October 26, 2018 at 23:38 lear@cisco.com (Eliot Lear) wrote:
 > As you know, by the time the mail is delivered the harm is largely
 > done.=A0 In fact that was a very interesting paper by Stefan Savage =
and
 > friends some time ago about pharma spam.=A0 We couldn't weed the stu=
ff out
 > fast enough, with whatever blocking mechanism because these people h=
ad
 > made their money in 72 hours on already-delivered mail.=A0 It's an
 > interesting area because it argues for retroactive removal of stuff =
in
 > peoples' mailboxes.

It was several years ago but the lead attorney for a big Verizon
anti-spam case said they discovered the typical lifetime for a host
for a link mentioned in a spam message was 30 MINUTES.

The spammers use that host for about 30 minutes and then abandon it
because they know it will be blocked and/or taken down.

 >=20
 > ButI think there is another issue lurking here with regard to the em=
ail
 > system.=A0 While the protocols allow for agency and permission etc, =
at
 > least at the host level, a vast swathe of people just use gmail and
 > yahoo for their mail, meaning that they are choke points for filteri=
ng
 > in a way that we might not like.=A0 And it's not that easy to change=
 your
 > email address.=A0 In fact it's a pain in the butt.=A0 That topic may=
 be
 > worth exploring a bit.

A lot of people used Google+...500M regularly I think is the usual
number. And it's shutting down. Such are the ways of free to the user
services.

And what about all the corporate etc sites which run their own email
systems=3F

I'm not sure I buy these sorts of stochastic / demographic arguments
unless they really lead to the conclusion that the potential
beneficiaries are miniscule in numbers.

And who says one wouldn't want protection from gmail, yahoo, etc=3F Tha=
t
is, a superset of their filtering. As we've seen it's likely to tend
towards their own internal groupthink idea of social pariah or not.

But a lot of this revolves around web and similar content.

--=20
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@TheWorld.com             | http://www.TheW=
orld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD       | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*


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To: bzs@theworld.com
Cc: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org, Eliot Lear 
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>  <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info> <1834156870.24841.1540286662495@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23503.31686.826968.760925@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <556649813.28464.1540382769875@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <23504.47483.243861.697843@gargle.gargle.HOWL>  <23506.11778.780337.939257@gargle.gargle.HOWL>  <23507.24591.761090.427494@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3baeb05f-c4f6-6eb7-abe4-e0dc36675a43@cisco.com> <7a9b293e-98ae-33b1-0a96-b6071cd2476c@cs.tcd.ie> <23507.36689.451849.360605@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
From: Stephen Farrell 
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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 23:15:54 +0100
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: bzs@theworld.com
Cc: Mallory Knodel , hrpc@irtf.org,
 Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for
 draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>
 <38F5FCAE-3D13-42C4-87CD-07C104F47D81@gmail.com>
 <1985234528.13962.1539841624389@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 
 <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>
 
 <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info>
 <1834156870.24841.1540286662495@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 <23503.31686.826968.760925@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <556649813.28464.1540382769875@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 <23504.47483.243861.697843@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 
 <23506.11778.780337.939257@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 
 <23507.24591.761090.427494@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <3baeb05f-c4f6-6eb7-abe4-e0dc36675a43@cisco.com>
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Fully agree that spam is hard and a FUSSP won't be found.

On 26/10/2018 23:04, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
> Nonetheless there might be value in producing standards around what
> might be folly if for no other reason than to minimize collateral
> damage from really dumb and/or ham-handed attempts, including simply
> productivity waste re-inventing the square wheel endlessly. And surely
> that's one major function of most engineering standards.

Disagree there though. IMO neither research groups in the IRTF
nor the IETF ought set out to add to the piles of nonsense that
are inevitably associated with hard problems. Aiming to do way
better than that is one of this community's strengths IMO. (We
of course fail often, but such is life;-)

S.

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Hi Stephen,

On 27.10.18 00:15, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> Disagree there though. IMO neither research groups in the IRTF
> nor the IETF ought set out to add to the piles of nonsense that
> are inevitably associated with hard problems. Aiming to do way
> better than that is one of this community's strengths IMO. (We
> of course fail often, but such is life;-)

When I consider this problem in another context I find myself wondering
whether we really do have a role: _Consider Keys Under Doormats_**and
LI.  In that paper the authors raise three general concerns:

 1. Loss of PFS
 2. System complexity
 3. Target concentration

I think we could imagine a lengthier list with sub-bullets.  But suppose
each proposed mechanism coming from various communities were put to an
evaluation of these concerns.  To start that evaluation one needs to
have the mechanisms documented.  At the very least it seems to me such
an evaluation has academic, of not practical, merit.  Whether those
mechanisms are documented  as RFC or something else doesn't really
matter, so long as they are well described.  Once implemented, however,
at that point one has to evaluate whether one wants to encourage least
worst.  From a vendor standpoint, as someone who might otherwise be
required to implement multiple mechanisms to enter various markets,  all
but one of which would be worse than the least worst, surely that is
what I would want.

That mechanism would *surely* have HR implications, but does that make
it the wrong thing to do? 

I view filtering in this same light.

Eliot


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Hi Stephen,

    

    
On 27.10.18 00:15, Stephen Farrell
      wrote:

    

    

      
Disagree there though. IMO neither research groups in the IRTF
nor the IETF ought set out to add to the piles of nonsense that
are inevitably associated with hard problems. Aiming to do way
better than that is one of this community's strengths IMO. (We
of course fail often, but such is life;-)


    

    

    When I consider this problem in another context I find myself
    wondering whether we really do have a role: Consider Keys Under
      Doormats and LI.  In that paper the authors raise
    three general concerns:

    
    
      
  1. Loss of PFS
    2. 
      
  2. System complexity
    3. 
      
  3. Target concentration
    4. 
    

    
I think we could imagine a lengthier list with sub-bullets.  But
      suppose each proposed mechanism coming from various communities
      were put to an evaluation of these concerns.  To start that
      evaluation one needs to have the mechanisms documented.  At the
      very least it seems to me such an evaluation has academic, of not
      practical, merit.  Whether those mechanisms are documented  as RFC
      or something else doesn't really matter, so long as they are well
      described.  Once implemented, however, at that point one has to
      evaluate whether one wants to encourage least worst.  From a
      vendor standpoint, as someone who might otherwise be required to
      implement multiple mechanisms to enter various markets,  all but
      one of which would be worse than the least worst, surely that is
      what I would want.

    
That mechanism would surely have HR implications, but
      does that make it the wrong thing to do?  

    

    
I view filtering in this same light.

    

    
Eliot

  


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Hiya,

On 27/10/2018 14:46, Eliot Lear wrote:
>=20
> That mechanism would *surely* have HR implications, but does that make
> it the wrong thing to do?=C2=A0

I'm not sure enough of what "it" you mean to have an
answer.

I can say though that if the E in IETF means anything
at all, then we ought not set out to produce what we
know is crap, which is the part of Barry's argument
with which I was disagreeing.

We do have to deal with crap that exists in the world,
but we don't have to, and shouldn't, invent crap.

S.

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Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 17:52:59 +0200 (CEST)
From: Vittorio Bertola 
To: Stephen Farrell 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
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> Il 27 ottobre 2018 alle 17.20 Stephen Farrell =
 ha scritto:
> =C2=A0
> I can say though that if the E in IETF means anything
> at all, then we ought not set out to produce what we
> know is crap, which is the part of Barry's argument
> with which I was disagreeing.
> =C2=A0
> We do have to deal with crap that exists in the world,
> but we don't have to, and shouldn't, invent crap.

Let me understand better your views: while I restate one more time that wea=
kening cryptography is indeed crap, would any other mechanism for content c=
ontrol be crap as well in your opinion? Let's say we create a mechanism for=
 anti-malware company X or content classification provider Y to publish and=
 transmit a list of "bad stuff to be blocked/put behind a warning screen" i=
n a secure and authenticated way, and for anyone to pick it up and implemen=
t it if they want (or if they are required by law). Would this in your opin=
ion be crap, on the grounds that blocking stuff is always crap even if well=
 engineered, or not?

Regards,
--=20

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


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To: Vittorio Bertola 
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From: Stephen Farrell 
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Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 17:17:02 +0100
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: Vittorio Bertola 
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for
 draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>
 <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>
 
 <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info>
 <1834156870.24841.1540286662495@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 <23503.31686.826968.760925@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <556649813.28464.1540382769875@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 <23504.47483.243861.697843@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 
 <23506.11778.780337.939257@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 
 <23507.24591.761090.427494@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <3baeb05f-c4f6-6eb7-abe4-e0dc36675a43@cisco.com>
 <7a9b293e-98ae-33b1-0a96-b6071cd2476c@cs.tcd.ie>
 <23507.36689.451849.360605@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 
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In-Reply-To: <1331332042.35515.1540655579954@appsuite.open-xchange.com>

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On 27/10/2018 16:52, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
>> Il 27 ottobre 2018 alle 17.20 Stephen Farrell
>>  ha scritto:
>>=20
>> I can say though that if the E in IETF means anything at all, then
>> we ought not set out to produce what we know is crap, which is the
>> part of Barry's argument with which I was disagreeing.
>>=20
>> We do have to deal with crap that exists in the world, but we don't
>> have to, and shouldn't, invent crap.
>=20
> Let me understand better your views: while I restate one more time
> that weakening cryptography is indeed crap, would any other mechanism
> for content control be crap as well in your opinion? Let's say we
> create a mechanism for anti-malware company X or content
> classification provider Y to publish and transmit a list of "bad
> stuff to be blocked/put behind a warning screen" in a secure and
> authenticated way, and for anyone to pick it up and implement it if
> they want (or if they are required by law). Would this in your
> opinion be crap, on the grounds that blocking stuff is always crap
> even if well engineered, or not?

Can't say from the above, sorry.

I can say that the Google Safe Browsing scheme [1] isn't too
bad, if used in what they appear to now call update mode (when
client sends a prefix hash to server). I could imagine a useful
standard built along those lines that'd allow clients to use
a set of servers. (Note - I'm not clear if that scheme is
getting worse or better, I didn't recall it having a variant
where the browser sends actual URLs before for example but
that now seems to exist.)

I also liked the scheme Roland presented a couple of IETF's
ago (more recently presented at [2] I guess) for using Bloom
filters to log DNS queries in a better manner. Something like
that could also be an enabler for a sane filtering scheme
perhaps.

Point is - with a bit of thought and paying actual attention
to privacy (rather than the lip service that seems the norm
for many companies), one can do what's needed and not damage
other parts of Internet security and privacy.

S.

[1] https://developers.google.com/safe-browsing/v4/
[2] https://tnc18.geant.org/getfile/4238


>=20
> Regards,
>=20

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Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 20:42:17 +0000 (UTC)
From: Nalini J Elkins 
Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins 
To: Eliot Lear , Stephen Farrell ,  "bzs@theworld.com" 
Cc: Mallory Knodel , "hrpc@irtf.org" 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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All,
Sorry for the top post.=C2=A0 I am in transit to India.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Made it=
 to Singapore!=C2=A0 I am trying unsuccessfully to keep up with emails.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0
Some very positive and constructive comments by many people.
I will work with Vittorio & Barry to summarize comments.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We ne=
ed to separate the DNS over HTTPS issues from filtering (both are important=
!).
Need to get the privacy folks involved.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I will talk to some on =
this email chain who will also be in India.
Let's think about venue also.=C2=A0 I have gotten interest from ETSI and IT=
U.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But frankly, IMHO, IETF / IRTF needs to be involved.=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0No one has time to waste so let's also think about what we want to ga=
in from each venue, if needed.=C2=A0Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

      From: Eliot Lear 
 To: Stephen Farrell ; bzs@theworld.com=20
Cc: Mallory Knodel ; hrpc@irtf.org
 Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 9:46 PM
 Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter=
-00.txt
  =20
 Hi Stephen,
  On 27.10.18 00:15, Stephen Farrell wrote:
 =20
 Disagree there though. IMO neither research groups in the IRTF
nor the IETF ought set out to add to the piles of nonsense that
are inevitably associated with hard problems. Aiming to do way
better than that is one of this community's strengths IMO. (We
of course fail often, but such is life;-)
=20
=20
 When I consider this problem in another context I find myself wondering wh=
ether we really do have a role: Consider Keys Under Doormats and LI.=C2=A0 =
In that paper the authors raise three general concerns:
   =20
   - Loss of PFS
   - System complexity
   - Target concentration
 I think we could imagine a lengthier list with sub-bullets.=C2=A0 But supp=
ose each proposed mechanism coming from various communities were put to an =
evaluation of these concerns.=C2=A0 To start that evaluation one needs to h=
ave the mechanisms documented.=C2=A0 At the very least it seems to me such =
an evaluation has academic, of not practical, merit.=C2=A0 Whether those me=
chanisms are documented=C2=A0 as RFC or something else doesn't really matte=
r, so long as they are well described.=C2=A0 Once implemented, however, at =
that point one has to evaluate whether one wants to encourage least worst.=
=C2=A0 From a vendor standpoint, as someone who might otherwise be required=
 to implement multiple mechanisms to enter various markets,=C2=A0 all but o=
ne of which would be worse than the least worst, surely that is what I woul=
d want. That mechanism would surely have HR implications, but does that mak=
e it the wrong thing to do?=C2=A0=20
  I view filtering in this same light.
  Eliot _______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


  =20
------=_Part_175592_547064372.1540672937912
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


All,

Sorry for the top post.  I=
 am in transit to India.   Made it to Singapore!  I am tryin=
g unsuccessfully to keep up with emails.   

Some very positive and constructive comments by many peo=
ple.

I will work with V=
ittorio & Barry to summarize comments.    We need to separate=
 the DNS over HTTPS issues from filtering (both are important!).

Need to get the priv=
acy folks involved.   I will talk to some on this email chain who=
 will also be in India.

Let's think about venue also.  I have gotten interest fro=
m ETSI and ITU.   But frankly, IMHO, IETF / IRTF needs to be invo=
lved.   No one has time to waste so let's also think about what w=
e want to gain from each venue, if needed.
 
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
=
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831)=
 659-8360


  
  
  
 Fro=
m: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
 To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie=
>; bzs@theworld.com 
Cc:=
 Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>; hrpc@irtf.org
 Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018=
 9:46 PM
 Subject: Re: =
[hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
  
 

<=
div>
    
Hi Stephen,

    

    
On 27.10.18 00:15, Stephen =
Farrell
      wrote:

    

    

      
Disagree there though. IMO neither research groups in the IRTF
nor the IETF ought set out to add to the piles of nonsense that
are inevitably associated with hard problems. Aiming to do way
better than that is one of this community's strengths IMO. (We
of course fail often, but such is life;-)


    

    

    When I consider this problem in another context I find myself
    wondering whether we really do have a role: Consider Keys Under
      Doormats and LI.  In that paper the authors raise
    three general concerns:

    
  1. Loss of PFS
  2. System complexity
  3. Target concentrat=
ion

    
I think we could imagine a lengthier list with sub-bullets.  =
But
      suppose each proposed mechanism coming from various communities
      were put to an evaluation of these concerns.  To start that
      evaluation one needs to have the mechanisms documented.  At the
      very least it seems to me such an evaluation has academic, of not
      practical, merit.  Whether those mechanisms are documented =
 as RFC
      or something else doesn't really matter, so long as they are well
      described.  Once implemented, however, at that point one has to
      evaluate whether one wants to encourage least worst.  From a
      vendor standpoint, as someone who might otherwise be required to
      implement multiple mechanisms to enter various markets,  all but
      one of which would be worse than the least worst, surely that is
      what I would want.

    
That mechanism would surely have HR implications, but
      does that make it the wrong thing to do?  

    

    
I view filtering in this same light.

    

    
Eliot

  
________=
_______________________________________
hrpc mailing list=

hrpc@irtf.org
=
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

=

 
   
------=_Part_175592_547064372.1540672937912--


From nobody Sun Oct 28 12:01:53 2018
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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 15:01:16 -0400
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To: hrpc@irtf.org
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On October 26, 2018 at 23:15 stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie (Stephen Farrell) wrote:
 > 
 > Fully agree that spam is hard and a FUSSP won't be found.
 > 
 > On 26/10/2018 23:04, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
 > > Nonetheless there might be value in producing standards around what
 > > might be folly if for no other reason than to minimize collateral
 > > damage from really dumb and/or ham-handed attempts, including simply
 > > productivity waste re-inventing the square wheel endlessly. And surely
 > > that's one major function of most engineering standards.
 > 
 > Disagree there though. IMO neither research groups in the IRTF
 > nor the IETF ought set out to add to the piles of nonsense that
 > are inevitably associated with hard problems. Aiming to do way
 > better than that is one of this community's strengths IMO. (We
 > of course fail often, but such is life;-)

I put "might be" folly to allow wriggle room.

We don't really know for certain.

And we probably won't know until we follow down that path some more.

Again analogous to the demands for a cryptography standard which works
for desirable uses but provides a back-door for law enforcement.

How was it determined whether that's folly or not?

By pursuing the idea as if it is reasonable -- it has the superficial
qualities of a reasonable request -- and then concluding it is not
reasonable and explaining why.

And our experience with 20+ years of trying to control the spam
problem which in many ways is much simpler* hasn't been encouraging
even though the problem space is similar (block stuff I don't want.)

* I say simpler because there's wide agreement on what is spam at
least in a lot of cases such as phishing, extortion (very popular
right now), you just won a lottery or donation, dicey products from
dicier sources, I am the wife of Qaddaffi, 419 spam, etc.

There are edge cases but if all the spam we got were the edge cases I
suspect it would be considered less of a problem.

What is "objectionable content" won't be so easily defined.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@TheWorld.com             | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD       | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*


From nobody Sun Oct 28 12:43:52 2018
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An HR implication of a universal, standardized content tagging
mechanism would be that it would likely make the job of those who
would suppress others' rights based on posted content easier.

For example if the govt of Slobbovia decided to round up everyone
within their purview who was critical of the King of Slobbovia then
starting with everything tagged as "King of Slobbovia: criticism"
would probably be a good place to start.

And it's reasonable to assume that some organization would do their
best to archive such tags and perhaps content and/or metadata and sell
access to that as a service.

RAAS -- Repression As A Service.

Perhaps this just falls under: Any powerful tool can be used for good
or evil.

Put another way, such a tagging mechanism might make such repression a
little easier but it's not very difficult to do now, e.g., via widely
available search tools and data mining.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@TheWorld.com             | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD       | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*


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To: bzs@theworld.com, hrpc@irtf.org
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From: Stephen Farrell 
Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url=
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Message-ID: <8133d000-269b-531e-c265-63527617f047@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 19:45:10 +0000
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
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From: Stephen Farrell 
To: bzs@theworld.com, hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: <8133d000-269b-531e-c265-63527617f047@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] New Version Notification for
 draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt
References: <153983436584.27522.16149204658694982036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>
 
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Hiya,

On 28/10/2018 19:01, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
>=20
> On October 26, 2018 at 23:15 stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie (Stephen Farrell=
) wrote:
>  >=20
>  > Fully agree that spam is hard and a FUSSP won't be found.
>  >=20
>  > On 26/10/2018 23:04, bzs@theworld.com wrote:
>  > > Nonetheless there might be value in producing standards around wha=
t
>  > > might be folly if for no other reason than to minimize collateral
>  > > damage from really dumb and/or ham-handed attempts, including simp=
ly
>  > > productivity waste re-inventing the square wheel endlessly. And su=
rely
>  > > that's one major function of most engineering standards.
>  >=20
>  > Disagree there though. IMO neither research groups in the IRTF
>  > nor the IETF ought set out to add to the piles of nonsense that
>  > are inevitably associated with hard problems. Aiming to do way
>  > better than that is one of this community's strengths IMO. (We
>  > of course fail often, but such is life;-)
>=20
> I put "might be" folly to allow wriggle room.
>=20
> We don't really know for certain.
>=20
> And we probably won't know until we follow down that path some more.
>=20
> Again analogous to the demands for a cryptography standard which works
> for desirable uses but provides a back-door for law enforcement.
>=20
> How was it determined whether that's folly or not?
>=20
> By pursuing the idea as if it is reasonable -- it has the superficial
> qualities of a reasonable request -- and then concluding it is not
> reasonable and explaining why.

That's fair. I would assert though that such research
shouldn't need any RFCs or standards. If the work shows
that there is no acceptable solution, (as in backdoor'd
crypto) then we're better off without things that are
easily confused with standards. If the work shows that
there are some acceptable solutions, then standardisation
of those can be pursued, and I'm guessing we'd all agree
that ending up with a minimal number of standards (be
that 0 or more) is desirable.

>=20
> And our experience with 20+ years of trying to control the spam
> problem which in many ways is much simpler* hasn't been encouraging
> even though the problem space is similar (block stuff I don't want.)
>=20
> * I say simpler because there's wide agreement on what is spam at
> least in a lot of cases such as phishing, extortion (very popular
> right now), you just won a lottery or donation, dicey products from
> dicier sources, I am the wife of Qaddaffi, 419 spam, etc.
>=20
> There are edge cases but if all the spam we got were the edge cases I
> suspect it would be considered less of a problem.
>=20
> What is "objectionable content" won't be so easily defined.

Yep. Esp given the subjectivity in that case is far more
pronounced than in the case of spam, which we've so far
failed to control. (In case someone objects that they do
not see spam, see [1] which is a bit salesy but worth a
read.)

Cheers,
S.

[1]
https://www.sendforensics.com/kbfiles/SendForensics-IEEE-Software-Article=
-Aug2017.pdf

>=20

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From nobody Sun Oct 28 12:56:52 2018
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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 15:50:39 -0400
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To: hrpc@irtf.org
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Ah the struggle between voluminous quoting vs paraphrasing.

I didn't say we know it is "crap" or anything quite like that.

I said it* "might be folly" due to scaling problems, the net's strong
tendency to "route around censorship", and experience with blocking
and filtering spam.

My point being that we likely can't really know whether it's folly or
not without exploring the idea further.

That's quite different from knowing it's "crap" and pursuing it
anyhow.

We don't know.

* Where "it" is some standardized mechanism for filtering, tagging,
and less likely blocking, blocking per se is probably an application
of the first two though it might benefit from some elucidated
standardization (e.g., a way to inform the endpoint a block is
VOLUNTARY, INVOLUNTARY, REGIONAL, IPR, ADVISORY, etc.)

On October 27, 2018 at 16:20 stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie (Stephen Farrell=
) wrote:
 >=20
 > Hiya,
 >=20
 > On 27/10/2018 14:46, Eliot Lear wrote:
 > >=20
 > > That mechanism would *surely* have HR implications, but does that =
make
 > > it the wrong thing to do=3F=A0
 >=20
 > I'm not sure enough of what "it" you mean to have an
 > answer.
 >=20
 > I can say though that if the E in IETF means anything
 > at all, then we ought not set out to produce what we
 > know is crap, which is the part of Barry's argument
 > with which I was disagreeing.
 >=20
 > We do have to deal with crap that exists in the world,
 > but we don't have to, and shouldn't, invent crap.

--=20
        -Barry Shein

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From nobody Mon Oct 29 01:16:26 2018
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To: Eliot Lear , hrpc@irtf.org
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From: Niels ten Oever 
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
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From: Niels ten Oever 
To: Eliot Lear , hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Maybe OT: Groping towards an ethic of network (was Re: New
 Version Notification for draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter-00.txt)
References: <23498.41457.423377.851890@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <4d06319b-020a-6437-2564-d1671b18540c@nomountain.net>
 
 <425556815.19146.1540072457471@appsuite.open-xchange.com>
 <20181021041400.szawbm5zvpnnh3xq@mx4.yitter.info>
 <5e17bafc-92e0-d9ef-4471-b19bb5f46f6b@cisco.com>
 <20181021083513.vpxth2a7va2aw3yi@mx4.yitter.info>
 <793c778b-cac9-1a08-dbac-21915a573624@cisco.com>
 <20181021233126.ttqegyh7bkce7l47@mx4.yitter.info>
 
 <20181022132815.pegoy3gb23c5glg6@mx4.yitter.info>
 
 
 
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On 10/23/2018 03:36 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Hi Niels,
>=20
>=20
> On 23.10.18 00:54, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>> Eliot, you brought up several times that not a full range of rights ha=
s
>> been considered in doing human rights reviews and in discussions here.=

>>
>> Can I invite you to do a human rights review of a protocol to show how=

>> we can take other considerations into account than we have not taken
>> into account thusfar?
>>
>=20
> I'll be happy to try at some point.=C2=A0 However, it is, as I've said
> elsewhere, a difficult task; because some of the rights one seeks to
> protect are themselves offended in the protection of others.=C2=A0 How =
do we
> reconcile that in our protocols?

This has been mentioned several times, but if we want to find a solution
it is probably better if we work from concrete data. So it would be
great if you could have a look at the Human Rights Reviews that have
been done, or do one yourself, and point out where the pressure points ar=
e.

Best,

Niels



>=20
> Eliot
>=20

--=20
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
Datactive Research Group
University of Amsterdam

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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia]  Fibre Feudalism
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From: Adam Burns 
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Last Friday I joined (with other concerned individuals) a delegation
that accompanied Ramon Roca from guifi.net to present a list of
complaints of anti-competitive and protectionist behaviours regarding
access to publicly funded fibre infrastructure to the European
Commission office in Barcelona.

A short video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DynxN69YIWZQ (in
Catalan with some English)

Best,

Adam.

On 21/10/2018 15:53, Steve Song wrote:

> Hi Amelia, Sonia,
>
> I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be
> happy to participate in a discussion on this.=C2=A0=C2=A0
>
> Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally
> restricted to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out
> infrastructure has proven (over and over and over again) to be a
> terrible idea.=C2=A0 I hope we can agree that we should stop doing that=
=2E=C2=A0
> For me the issue is about power and control and the way it is used to
> impede competition.=C2=A0 The cost of technology has plummeted in both
> fibre and wireless technologies.=C2=A0 In theory that should have been =
a
> boon for competition but high spectrum auction fees and licenses along
> with exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost
> impenetrable barrier to market entry.=C2=A0 Any government intervention=
 in
> universal service should obliged to address the issue of market
> permeability as well as ownership of and access to core networks.
>
> Cheers... Steve
>


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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 18:06:38 +0300
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Hi all,

Any changes? Will upload to the datatracker soon,

-M

===
Proposed Agenda HRPC IETF 103

# Welcome and introduction (5 minutes)

	Scribe, Note takers
	Agenda Review
	Research Group status

# Talk by Arthit Suriyawongkul, Thai Netizen Network (30-40 minutes)

	Title TBD

# Talk by Ashwin Jacob Mathew, UC Berkeley (30-40 minutes)

	Title TBD

# Update from the Hackathon (15 minutes)

# Update from the Human Rights Review Team (15 minutes)

# Research Group drafts updates/discussions (20 minutes)

	draft-irtf-hrpc-association
	draft-irtf-hrpc-political
	draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines

# Updates/discussions on drafts yet to be adopted by the RG (5 minutes)

	draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter

# Open Discussion (15 minutes)

	Check in on: Where is the research group's interests?
	And on what topics do we want to work?
	Other discussion on methodologies, maybe?

# AOB

-- 
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


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--000000000000b76038057972f0e7
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The issue raised in this topic is critical taking into consideration that
security in area A can be considered as insecurity in area B.
One critical point that must be considered, is that the schizophrenic
nature of the internet will continue to increase with time as long as human
race evolve..
Hence internet security will always be updated to meet the flowing trend of
recent and upcoming generations.
One way to solve insecurity is to notify the endpoint  about a block that
was carried out, reasons for does blocks, precautions and action that was
taken.
It is key to let the endpoint be notified about issues that might affect
his comfort in the internet.

--000000000000b76038057972f0e7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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The issue raised in this topic is critical taking into con=
sideration that security in area A can be considered as insecurity in area =
B.
One critical point that must be considered, is that the schizophreni=
c nature of the internet will continue to increase with time as long as hum=
an race evolve..
Hence internet security will always be updated t=
o meet the flowing trend of recent and upcoming generations.
One =
way to solve insecurity is to notify the endpoint=C2=A0 about a block that =
was carried out, reasons for does blocks, precautions and action that was t=
aken.
It is key to let the endpoint be notified about issues that=
 might affect his comfort in the internet.



--000000000000b76038057972f0e7--


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From: Corinne Cath 
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 16:45:34 +0100
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To: Mallory Knodel 
Cc: Hrpc 
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--000000000000ca222f0579741586
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Hi Mallory,

Thanks for drafting this. It was easy to read, convincing and informative.

I look forward to further discussing it in Bangkok.

Kind regards,

-- 
Corinne Cath - Speth
Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute

Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath
Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnecath@gmail.com
Twitter: @C_Cath


On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 4:45 PM Mallory Knodel 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> As a way to make coherent and constructive a prior conversation in HRPC
> and the ietf@ list there is a new draft on oppressive terminology.
>
> Thanks to folks who helped with feedback on this document. And thanks in
> advance for constructive discussion on this list about it:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-knodel-terminology/
>
> -Mallory
>
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> To: Niels ten Oever , Mallory Knodel <
> mallory@article19.org>
> Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 10:54:17 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-knodel-terminology-00.txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-knodel-terminology-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Niels ten Oever and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:           draft-knodel-terminology
> Revision:       00
> Title:          Terminology, Power and Oppressive Language
> Document date:  2018-10-22
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          10
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-knodel-terminology-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-knodel-terminology/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-knodel-terminology-00
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-knodel-terminology
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This document argues for and describes alternatives that shift
>    specific language conventions used by RFC Authors and RFC Editors to
>    avoid oppressive terminology in the technical documentation of the
>    RFC series.  Specifically, this document details two sets of terms
>    that are normalised on the technical level but oppressive on a
>    societal level.  First, arguments are presented for why any
>    oppressive terms should be avoided by the IETF/IRTF.  Second, problem
>    statements for both sets of terms are presented and alternatives are
>    proposed.  There is a third section on additional considerations and
>    general action points to address the RFC series, past and future.
>    Lastly, a summary of recommendations is presented.
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>


-- 
Corinne Cath - Speth
Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute

Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath
Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnecath@gmail.com
Twitter: @C_Cath

--000000000000ca222f0579741586
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Mallory,

Thanks for drafting this. It was easy to read,=
 convincing and informative.

I look forward to further discussing it=
 in Bangkok.

Kind regards,

--=C2=A0
Co=
rinne Cath - Speth
Web:=C2=A0www.oii=
.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath=C2=A0
Email:=C2=A0ccath@turing.ac.uk=C2=A0&=C2=A0=
corinnecath@gmai=
l.com
Twitter: @C_Cath


On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 4:45 PM M=
allory Knodel <mallory@article1=
9.org> wrote:
Hi all,



As a way to make coherent and constructive a prior conversation in HRPC and=
 the ietf@ list there is a new draft on oppressive terminology. 



Thanks to folks who helped with feedback on this document. And thanks in ad=
vance for constructive discussion on this list about it:



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kn=
odel-terminology/



-Mallory



----- Forwarded Message -----

From: interne=
t-drafts@ietf.org

To: Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>
Sent: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 10:54:17 -0000 (UTC)

Subject: New Version Notification for draft-knodel-terminology-00.txt





A new version of I-D, draft-knodel-terminology-00.txt

has been successfully submitted by Niels ten Oever and posted to the

IETF repository.



Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-knodel-terminology

Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000

Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Terminology, Power and Oppressive =
Language

Document date:=C2=A0 2018-10-22

Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission

Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10

URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-knodel-terminology=
-00.txt

Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-knodel-terminology/

Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/draft-knodel-terminology-00

Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-knodel-terminology





Abstract:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document argues for and describes alternatives that shift=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0specific language conventions used by RFC Authors and RFC Edit=
ors to

=C2=A0 =C2=A0avoid oppressive terminology in the technical documentation of=
 the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC series.=C2=A0 Specifically, this document details two sets=
 of terms

=C2=A0 =C2=A0that are normalised on the technical level but oppressive on a=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0societal level.=C2=A0 First, arguments are presented for why a=
ny

=C2=A0 =C2=A0oppressive terms should be avoided by the IETF/IRTF.=C2=A0 Sec=
ond, problem

=C2=A0 =C2=A0statements for both sets of terms are presented and alternativ=
es are

=C2=A0 =C2=A0proposed.=C2=A0 There is a third section on additional conside=
rations and

=C2=A0 =C2=A0general action points to address the RFC series, past and futu=
re.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Lastly, a summary of recommendations is presented.







Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n

until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.



The IETF Secretariat





_______________________________________________

hrpc mailing list

hrpc@irtf.org

https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc




-- 
=

Corinne Cath - Speth
Ph.D. Candidate, O=
xford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute 

Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath 
Emai=
l: ccath@turing.ac.=
uk & cor=
innecath@gmail.com
Twitter: @C_Cath


--000000000000ca222f0579741586--


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To: hrpc@irtf.org, Ashwin Jacob Mathew , Arthit Suriyawongkul 
References: 
From: Mallory Knodel 
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Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAHNJU1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QG1heWZpcnN0Lm9yZz7CwJgEEwECAEICGwMG CwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo 9WUFCRAV234ACgkQDDKicb08x4DklAf+ODKRmP6C2MnBz6vL8N8l3vZJUqoRcYXTn3uTpT05 Wou87ZIZ/P/OV2/uOMKkczLQQydj5S8PxbLTeg+U5f/63hdy99ON+K2b4izg7Qasdl1SqXTH q1pmhbrcbLbVKDJ345fdEg7RuMnv4gd3EaT/yQa99zHy8JHaBKaPEUQAa65HTt2Sy2c6L6BA aMZx1TOZ9/cZ7L1gJyytJbEyvg/JLOatJEI4rewUWU2TMSGJijwjAUBagwDPWyxpz+vXdKsD tqRTpY4xvXaeUQo0QXf0c5j1Gcglzv7ywZcyz1MGD1aLS9/CqeB3I4EMbvH/33LS3jNkfKbV XOTSjmo7l22CNc7ATQRMdE1nAQgA4mpP2LjFuAW2li9FPbDYOMzt0MtThXsnvHyY0fDv8FlU qnKgPrMY80VHntnxwqepFS3ncunVX4ipq+fadta+LHpTnbJSmlphBrc9qGJxqcjwf4yo35Xh OXCJFwnaoAwIX237lXRe4Xh6X4VMuJt8jiZdvgpbk/whvQH2grcq8KjCcy1iuL5pBl8ZwYG/ dphitFhQdqEcnc/krIqG4KQgKiUi3K/GR0OeEmw/cscWD7/CLEo7eHiaGQhSOyDQbM+Iu2o/ 6uMXMUPsYlMMqgmVL68zMacO3PE17jx0rQ8oZ7CpBY8YZWOWrzXrtFT8JO9guuCPsvd4KT6y 97y9LRJlPQARAQABwsB8BBgBAgAmAhsMFiEE4+tj4GWjskC82bBxDDKicb08x4AFAlqo9WYF CRAV238ACgkQDDKicb08x4DU4QgAmlyBlFhfU0jpkbyD3HQ+3CJqWdBT422pVIrj3qNT2ehy fWO66Muidmd4Y279uV3p3TQEJOQvnV7FVAC9+bI7AdBy00BAjHgJ5eSQZxKTXUoeeBAsTZHN /HaHewjYWHMvCuuzir/Wt3A6Cehh8gp9I/Vg+oL3dTldVqqgZLgnA83bT/R8fI/e85LDlpdx KJ0+uy/grg3AbH7LUUrmMIC2iO8mQWYuNlizsUZLFvJhCAU2c5l8B5mv2BoWFhL+l7mmNcdF bwBFXon7Ea1jkCnbWVxtXkPYkcuWuMSTJswn9HhZVJWjUonKqUZKAb9PxRzC9crZ+X14tQT3 iJt2a4ZM4w==
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft agenda 103
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Hi,

Agenda is in datatracker:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-103-hrpc

Please send me your slides.

Thank you!
-Mallory

On 29/10/2018 18:06, Mallory Knodel wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Any changes? Will upload to the datatracker soon,
> 
> -M
> 
> ===
> Proposed Agenda HRPC IETF 103
> 
> # Welcome and introduction (5 minutes)
> 
> 	Scribe, Note takers
> 	Agenda Review
> 	Research Group status
> 
> # Talk by Arthit Suriyawongkul, Thai Netizen Network (30-40 minutes)
> 
> 	Title TBD
> 
> # Talk by Ashwin Jacob Mathew, UC Berkeley (30-40 minutes)
> 
> 	Title TBD
> 
> # Update from the Hackathon (15 minutes)
> 
> # Update from the Human Rights Review Team (15 minutes)
> 
> # Research Group drafts updates/discussions (20 minutes)
> 
> 	draft-irtf-hrpc-association
> 	draft-irtf-hrpc-political
> 	draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines
> 
> # Updates/discussions on drafts yet to be adopted by the RG (5 minutes)
> 
> 	draft-elkins-hrpc-ifilter
> 
> # Open Discussion (15 minutes)
> 
> 	Check in on: Where is the research group's interests?
> 	And on what topics do we want to work?
> 	Other discussion on methodologies, maybe?
> 
> # AOB
> 


-- 
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
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