
From nobody Fri Mar  1 13:19:49 2019
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From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" <agenda@ietf.org>
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Subject: [hrpc] hrpc - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 104
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Dear Mallory Knodel,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    hrpc Session 1 (2:00 requested)
    Thursday, 28 March 2019, Afternoon Session II 1610-1810
    Room Name: Berlin/Brussels size: 100
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/sessions/hrpc.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Human Rights Protocol Considerations
Area Name: IRTF
Session Requester: Mallory Knodel

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 100
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: dnsop gaia irtfopen
 Second Priority: mls capport regext
 Third Priority: dprive doh


People who must be present:
  Avri Doria
  Mallory Knodel

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


From michael@briarproject.org  Wed Mar  6 08:53:48 2019
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Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 16:53:29 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/hrpc/Mx06gwrLZJM39SiC2fwpAxyVA-M>
Subject: [hrpc] Review of draft-irtf-hrpc-political-01
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From: Michael Rogers <michael@briarproject.org>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: <4f0fe201-61fb-d039-3f3d-5b9258302afe@briarproject.org>
Subject: Review of draft-irtf-hrpc-political-01

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--------------D2B52852F4302D11CDDCEA38
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Hi all,

Neils and Mallory asked me to review the current draft of "Notes on
networking standards and politics".

I'm afraid I went a bit overboard and recommended that it should be
rewritten as a musical about a plucky kid lost in the big city and her
scruffy dog sidekick, so please take my comments with plenty of salt.

The review's attached, along with a diff against the markdown source
containing some minor edits to spelling, punctuation and wording.

Cheers,
Michael

--------------D2B52852F4302D11CDDCEA38
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--------------D2B52852F4302D11CDDCEA38
Content-Type: text/x-patch;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
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63c63
<      title: "Internationalization of the Internet by design: The first =
decade "
---
>      title: "Internationalization of the Internet by design: The first =
decade"
242c242
<       title: "Upon openig the black box and finding it empty: Social co=
nstructivism and the philosophy of technology"
---
>       title: "Upon opening the black box and finding it empty: Social c=
onstructivism and the philosophy of technology"
287c287
< The IETF cannot ordain which standards or protocols are to be used on n=
etwork, but the standards developing process in the IETF has a normative =
effect. Among other things the standardisation work at the IETF has impli=
cations on what is perceived as technologically possible and useful where=
 networking technologies are being deployed, and its standards output ref=
lect was is considered by the technical community as feasible and good pr=
actice. Because it mediates many aspects of modern life, and therefore co=
ntributes to the ordering of societies and communities, the consideration=
 of the politics and (potential) impact of protocols should be part of th=
e standardization and development process. If the technical community ref=
uses to take up this responsibility, it should accept that others, such a=
s governments, will take up this role.=20
---
> The IETF cannot ordain what standards or protocols are to be used on ne=
tworks, but the standards development process in the IETF has a normative=
 effect. Among other things, the IETF's work affects what is perceived as=
 technologically possible and useful where networking technologies are be=
ing deployed, and its standards reflect what is considered by the technic=
al community to be feasible and good practice. Because the IETF's protoco=
ls mediate many aspects of modern life, and therefore contribute to the o=
rdering of societies and communities, the consideration of the potential =
social impact of protocols should be part of the standardization and deve=
lopment process.
306c306
< The design of the Internet through protocols and standards is a technic=
al issue with great political and economic impacts {{RFC0613}}. The early=
 Internet community already realized that it needed to make decisions on =
political issues such as Intellectual Property, Internationalization {{Br=
amanI}}, diversity, access {{RFC0101}} privacy and security {{RFC0049}}, =
and the military {{RFC0164}} {{RFC0316}}, governmental {{RFC0144}} {{RFC0=
286}} {{RFC0313}} {{RFC0542}} {{RFC0549}} and non-governmental {{RFC0196}=
} uses, which has been clearly pointed out by Braman {{BramanII}}.
---
> The design of the Internet through protocols and standards is a technic=
al issue with great political and economic impacts {{RFC0613}}. The early=
 Internet community already realized that it needed to make decisions on =
political issues such as intellectual property; internationalization {{Br=
amanI}}; diversity; access {{RFC0101}}; privacy and security {{RFC0049}};=
 and the military {{RFC0164}} {{RFC0316}}, governmental {{RFC0144}} {{RFC=
0286}} {{RFC0313}} {{RFC0542}} {{RFC0549}} and non-governmental {{RFC0196=
}} uses of the network. This has been clearly pointed out by Braman {{Bra=
manII}}.
308c308
< Recently there has been an increased discussion on the relation between=
 Internet protocols and human rights {{RFC8280}} which spurred the discus=
sion on the the value neutrality and political nature of standards. The n=
etwork infrastructure is on the one hand designed, described, developed, =
standardized and implemented by the Internet community, but the Internet =
community and Internet users are also shaped by the affordances of the te=
chnology. Companies, citizens, governments, standards developing bodies, =
public opinion and public interest groups all play a part in these discus=
sions. In this document we aim to outline different views on the relation=
 between standards and politics and seek to answer the question whether s=
tandards are political, and if so, how.
---
> Recently there has been increased discussion of the relation between In=
ternet protocols and human rights {{RFC8280}}, which spurred discussion o=
f the value neutrality and political nature of standards. The network inf=
rastructure is on the one hand designed, described, developed, standardiz=
ed and implemented by the Internet community, while on the other hand the=
 Internet community and Internet users are also shaped by the affordances=
 of the technology. Companies, citizens, governments, standards developme=
nt bodies, public opinion and public interest groups all play a part in t=
hese discussions. In this document we aim to outline different views on t=
he relation between standards and politics, and seek to answer the questi=
on of whether standards are political, and if so, how.
317c317
< : The possibilities that are provided to an actors through the ordering=
 of an environment by a technology.
---
> : The possibilities that are provided to an actor through the ordering =
of an environment by a technology.
329c329
< Are protocols political? If so, should the politics of protocols need t=
o be taken into account in their development process?
---
> Are protocols political? If so, should the politics of protocols be tak=
en into account in their development process?
334c334
< In 1993 the Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility stated tha=
t 'the Internet should meet public interest objectives', similarly {{RFC3=
935}} states that 'The Internet isn't value-neutral, and neither is the I=
ETF.'. Ethics and the Internet was already a topic of an RFC by the IAB i=
n 1989 {{RFC1097}}. Nonetheless there has been a recent uptick in discuss=
ions around the impact of Internet protocols on human rights {{RFC8280}} =
in the IETF and more general about the impact of technology on society in=
 the public debate.
---
> In 1993 the Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility stated tha=
t 'the Internet should meet public interest objectives'. Similarly, {{RFC=
3935}} states that 'The Internet isn't value-neutral, and neither is the =
IETF.'. Ethics and the Internet was already a topic of an RFC by the IAB =
in 1989 {{RFC1097}}. Nonetheless there has been a recent uptick in discus=
sions within the IETF about the impact of Internet protocols on human rig=
hts {{RFC8280}}, and more generally in public debate about the impact of =
technology on society.
336,337c336,338
< This document aims to provide an overview of the spectrum of different =
positions that have been observed in the IETF and IRTF community, during =
participatory observation, through 39 interviews with members of the comm=
unity, the Human Rights Protocol Considerations Research Group mailinglis=
t and during and after the Technical Plenary on Protocols and Human Right=
s during IETF98.
< Without judging them on their internal or external consistency they are=
 represented here, where possible we sought to engage with academic liter=
ature on this topic.
---
> This document aims to provide an overview of the spectrum of different =
positions that have been observed in the IETF and IRTF community. These p=
ositions were observed during participatory observation, through 39 inter=
views with members of the community, the Human Rights Protocol Considerat=
ions Research Group mailing list, and during and after the Technical Plen=
ary on Protocols and Human Rights during IETF98.
>=20
> Without judging them on their internal or external consistency they are=
 represented here. Where possible we also sought to engage with the acade=
mic literature on this topic.
340c341
< This position starts from the premise that the technical and political =
are differentiated fields and that technology is 'value free'. This is al=
so put more explicitly by Carey: "electronics is neither the arrival of a=
pocalypse nor the dispensation of  grace.  Technology  is  technology;  i=
t  is  a  means  for  communication  and  transportation  over  space, an=
d nothing more." {{Carey}}. In this view protocols only become political =
when it is actually being used by humans. So the technology itself is not=
 political, the use of the technology is. This view sees technology as in=
strument; "technologies  are  'tools' standing  ready  to  serve  the  pu=
rposes  of  their  users.  Technology  is  deemed  'neutral,' without val=
uative content of its own.'" {{Feenberg}}. Feenberg continues: "technolog=
y  is  not  inherently  good  or  bad,  and  can  be  used  to  whatever =
 political  or  social  ends  desired  by  the  person  or  institution  =
in  control.  Technology  is  a  =E2=80=98rational entity=E2=80=99 and un=
iversally applicable. One may make exceptions on moral grounds, but one m=
ust also understand that the "price for the achievement of environmental,=
 ethical, or religious goals...is reduced efficiency." {{Feenberg}}.
---
> This position starts from the premise that the technical and political =
are differentiated fields and that technology is 'value free'. This is al=
so put more explicitly by Carey: "electronics is neither the arrival of a=
pocalypse nor the dispensation of  grace.  Technology  is  technology;  i=
t  is  a  means  for  communication  and  transportation  over  space, an=
d nothing more." {{Carey}}. In this view protocols only become political =
when it is actually being used by humans. So the technology itself is not=
 political, the use of the technology is. This view sees technology as in=
strument; "technologies  are  'tools' standing  ready  to  serve  the  pu=
rposes  of  their  users.  Technology  is  deemed  'neutral,' without val=
uative content of its own.'" {{Feenberg}}. Feenberg continues: "technolog=
y  is  not  inherently  good  or  bad,  and  can  be  used  to  whatever =
 political  or  social  ends  desired  by  the  person  or  institution  =
in  control.  Technology  is  a  'rational entity' and universally applic=
able. One may make exceptions on moral grounds, but one must also underst=
and that the "price for the achievement of environmental, ethical, or rel=
igious goals...is reduced efficiency." {{Feenberg}}.
342c343
< ## Some protocols are political some times
---
> ## Some protocols are political sometimes
353c354
< In the same way --in another and more recent example-- the very existen=
ce automobiles impose physical forms on the world different from those th=
at come from the electric tram or the horse-cart. The logic of the automo=
bile means speed and the rapid covering of distance, which encourages sub=
urban development and a tendency toward conurbation. But even if that did=
 not happen, widespread automobile use requires paved roads, and parking =
lots and structures. These are pressures that come from the automotive te=
chnology itself, and would not arise without that technology.
---
> In the same way -- in another and more recent example -- the very exist=
ence of automobiles imposes physical forms on the world different from th=
ose that come from the electric tram or the horse-cart. The logic of the =
automobile means speed and the rapid covering of distance, which encourag=
es suburban development and a tendency toward conurbation. But even if th=
at did not happen, widespread automobile use requires paved roads, and pa=
rking lots and structures. These are pressures that come from the automot=
ive technology itself, and would not arise without that technology.
355c356
< In much same way, then, networking technology, such as protocols, creat=
es its own demands. One of the most important conditions for protocol suc=
cess is its incremental deployability {{RFC5218}}.  This means that the n=
etwork already contains constraints on what can be deployed into it. In t=
his sense the network creates its own paths, but also has its own objecti=
ve. According to this view the goal of the network is interconnection and=
 connectivity; more connectivity is good for the network. Proponents of t=
his positions also often describe the Internet as an organism with its ow=
n unique ecosystem.
---
> In much same way, then, networking technology, such as protocols, creat=
es its own demands. One of the most important conditions for a protocol's=
 success is its incremental deployability {{RFC5218}}.  This means that t=
he network already contains constraints on what can be deployed into it. =
In this sense the network creates its own paths, but also has its own obj=
ective. According to this view the goal of the network is interconnection=
 and connectivity; more connectivity is good for the network. Proponents =
of this positions also often describe the Internet as an organism with it=
s own unique ecosystem.
357c358
< In this position it is not necessarily clear where the 'social' ends an=
d the 'technical' begins, and it could be argued that the distinction its=
elf is a social construction {{BijkerLaw}} or that a real-life distinctio=
n between the two is hard to be made {{Bloor}}.
---
> In this position it is not necessarily clear where the 'social' ends an=
d the 'technical' begins, and it could be argued that the distinction its=
elf is a social construction {{BijkerLaw}} or that a real-life distinctio=
n between the two is hard to make {{Bloor}}.
360c361
< This position argues the opposite of 'technological neutrality'. This p=
osition can be illustrated with Postman where he writes: 'the uses made o=
f technology are largely determined by the structure of the technology it=
self' {{Postman}}. He states that the medium itself 'contains an ideologi=
cal bias'. He continues to argue that technology is non-neutral:
---
> This position argues the opposite of 'technological neutrality'. This p=
osition is illustrated by Postman when he writes: "the uses made of techn=
ology are largely determined by the structure of the technology itself" {=
{Postman}}. He states that the medium itself "contains an ideological bia=
s". He continues to argue that technology is non-neutral:
368c369
< Recent scholars of Internet infrastructure and governance have also poi=
nted out that Internet processes and standards have become part and parce=
l of political processes and public policies. Several concrete examples a=
re found within this approach, for instance, the IANA transition or globa=
l innovation policy {{DeNardis}}. The Raven process in which the IETF ref=
used to standardize wiretapping --which resulted in {{RFC2804}}-- was an =
instance where an international governance body took a position that was =
largely political, although driven by a technical argument. The process t=
hat led to {{RFC6973}} is similar: the Snowden disclosures which occured =
in the political space, engendered the IETF to act. This is summarized in=
 {{Abbate}} who says: "protocols are politics by other means", emphasizin=
g the interests that are at play in the process of designing standards.
---
> Recent scholars of Internet infrastructure and governance have also poi=
nted out that Internet processes and standards have become part and parce=
l of political processes and public policies. Several concrete examples a=
re found within this approach, for instance, the IANA transition or globa=
l innovation policy {{DeNardis}}. The Raven process in which the IETF ref=
used to standardize wiretapping -- which resulted in {{RFC2804}} -- was a=
n instance where an international governance body took a position that wa=
s largely political, although driven by a technical argument. The process=
 that led to {{RFC6973}} is similar: the Snowden disclosures, which occur=
ed in the political space, engendered the IETF to act. This is summarized=
 in {{Abbate}} who says: "protocols are politics by other means," emphasi=
zing the interests that are at play in the process of designing standards=
=2E
370c371
< This position further holds that protocols can never be understood with=
out their contextual embeddedness: protocols do not exist solely by thems=
elves but always are to be understood in a more complex context -- the st=
ack, hardware, or nation-state interests and their impact on civil rights=
=2E Finally, this view is that that protocols are political because they =
affect or sometimes effect the socio-technical ordering of reality. The l=
atter observation leads Winner to conclude that the reality of technologi=
cal progress has too often been a scenario where the innovation has dicta=
ted change for society. Those who had the power to introduce a new techno=
logy also had the power to create a consumer class  to  use  the  technol=
ogy =E2=80=98with new practices, relationships, and identities supplantin=
g the old, ---and those who had the wherewithal to implement new technolo=
gies often molded society to match the needs of emerging technologies and=
 organizations.=E2=80=99 {{Winner}}.
---
> This position further holds that protocols can never be understood with=
out their contextual embeddedness: protocols do not exist solely by thems=
elves but always are to be understood in a more complex context -- the st=
ack, hardware, or nation-state interests and their impact on civil rights=
=2E Finally, this view is that protocols are political because they affec=
t or sometimes effect the socio-technical ordering of reality. The latter=
 observation leads Winner to conclude that the reality of technological p=
rogress has too often been a scenario where innovation has dictated chang=
e for society. Those who had the power to introduce a new technology also=
 had the power to create a consumer class to use the technology "with new=
 practices, relationships, and identities supplanting the old, --- and th=
ose who had the wherewithal to implement new technologies often molded so=
ciety to match the needs of emerging technologies and organizations." {{W=
inner}}.
377c378
< Standards enabling interoperating networks, what we think of today as t=
he Internet, were created as open, formal and voluntary standards. A plat=
form for internet standardisation, the Internet Engineering Task Force (I=
ETF), was created in 1986 to enable the continuation of such standardisat=
ion work. The IETF has sought to make the standards process transparent (=
by ensuring everyone can access standards, mailing-lists and meetings), p=
redictable (by having clear procedures and reviews) and of high quality (=
by having draft documents reviewed by members from its own epistemic comm=
unity). This is all aimed at increasing the accountability of the process=
 and the quality of the standard.
---
> Standards enabling interoperating networks, what we think of today as t=
he Internet, were created as open, formal and voluntary standards. A plat=
form for Internet standardization, the Internet Engineering Task Force (I=
ETF), was created in 1986 to enable the continuation of such standardizat=
ion work. The IETF has sought to make the standards process transparent (=
by ensuring everyone can access standards, mailing-lists and meetings), p=
redictable (by having clear procedures and reviews) and of high quality (=
by having draft documents reviewed by members from its own epistemic comm=
unity). This is all aimed at increasing the accountability of the process=
 and the quality of the standard.
379c380
< The IETF implements what has been referred to as an "informal ex ante d=
isclosure policy" for patents {{Contreras}}, which includes the possibili=
ty for participants to disclose the existence of a patent relevant for th=
e standard, royalty-terms which would apply to the implementors of that s=
tandard should it enter into effect, as well as other licensing terms tha=
t may be interesting for implementors to know. The community ethos in the=
 IETF seems to lead to 100% royalty-free disclosures of prior patents whi=
ch is a record number, even among other comparable standard organisations=
 {{Contreras}}. In the following paragraph we will describe inherent tens=
ions in the standards process.
---
> The IETF implements what has been referred to as an "informal ex ante d=
isclosure policy" for patents {{Contreras}}, which includes the possibili=
ty for participants to disclose the existence of a patent relevant for th=
e standard, royalty-terms which would apply to the implementers of that s=
tandard should it enter into effect, as well as other licensing terms tha=
t may be interesting for implementers to know. The community ethos in the=
 IETF seems to lead to 100% royalty-free disclosures of prior patents whi=
ch is a record number, even among other comparable standard organizations=
 {{Contreras}}. In the following paragraph we will describe inherent tens=
ions in the standards process.
385c386
< On the first types of standards than can be found are "informal" ones -=
-agreed upon normal ways of interacting within a specific community. For =
example, the process through which greetings to a new acquaintance are ex=
pressed through a bow, a handshake or a kiss. On the other hand "formal" =
standards, are normally codified in writing. The next subsection will ---=
-
---
> On the first types of standards than can be found are "informal" ones -=
- agreed-upon normal ways of interacting within a specific community. For=
 example, the process through which greetings to a new acquaintance are e=
xpressed through a bow, a handshake or a kiss. On the other hand, "formal=
" standards are normally codified in writing.
387c388
< Within economy studies, _de facto_ standards arise in market situations=
 where one entity is particularly dominant; downstream competitors are th=
erefore tied to the dominant entity's technological solutions {{Ahlborn}}=
=2E Under EU anti-trust law, de facto standards have been found to restri=
ct competition for downstream services in PC software products {{CJEU2007=
}}, as well as downstream services dependent on health information {{CJEU=
2004}}.
---
> Within economy studies, _de facto_ standards arise in market situations=
 where one entity is particularly dominant; downstream competitors are th=
erefore tied to the dominant entity's technological solutions {{Ahlborn}}=
=2E Under EU anti-trust law, _de facto_ standards have been found to rest=
rict competition for downstream services in PC software products {{CJEU20=
07}}, as well as downstream services dependent on health information {{CJ=
EU2004}}.
389c390
< Even in international law, the World Trade Organisation (WTO) uses stan=
dards, although it recognises a difference between standards and technica=
l regulations. The former are voluntary formal codes to which products or=
 services may conform, while technical regulations are mandatory requirem=
ents to be fullfilled for a product to be accessible on one of the WTO co=
untry markets. These rules have implications for how nation states bounde=
d by the WTO agreements can impose specific technical requirements on com=
panies. Nonetheles, there are many standardisation groups that were origi=
nally launched by nation states or groups of nation states. ISO, BIS, CNI=
S, NIST, ABNT and ETSI are examples of institutions that are, wholly or p=
artially, sponsored by public money in order to ensure smooth development=
 of formal standards. Even if under WTO rules these organisations cannot =
create the equivalent of a technical regulation, they have important norm=
ative functions in their respective countries. No matter what form, all s=
tandards enhance competition and collaboration because they define a comm=
on approach to a problem. This potentially allows different instances to =
interoperate or be evaluated according to the same indicators.
---
> Even in international law, the World Trade Organization (WTO) uses stan=
dards, although it recognizes a difference between standards and technica=
l regulations. The former are voluntary formal codes to which products or=
 services may conform, while technical regulations are mandatory requirem=
ents to be fullfilled for a product to be accessible in a national market=
=2E These rules have implications for how nation states bound by WTO agre=
ements can impose specific technical requirements on companies. Nonethele=
ss, there are many standardization groups that were originally launched b=
y nation states or groups of nation states. ISO, BIS, CNIS, NIST, ABNT an=
d ETSI are examples of institutions that are, wholly or partially, sponso=
red by public money in order to ensure the smooth development of formal s=
tandards. Even if under WTO rules these organizations cannot create the e=
quivalent of a technical regulation, they have important normative functi=
ons in their respective countries. No matter what form, all standards enh=
ance competition and collaboration because they define a common approach =
to a problem. This potentially allows different instances to interoperate=
 or be evaluated according to the same indicators.
391c392
< The development of formal standards faces a number of economic and orga=
nisational challenges. Mainly, the cost and difficulty of organising many=
 entities around a mutual goal, as well as the cost of research and devel=
opment leading up to a mutually beneficial technological platform. In add=
ition, deciding what the mutual goal is can also be a problem. These chal=
lenges may be described as inter-organisational costs. Even after a goal =
is decided upon, coordination of multiple entities requires time and mone=
y. One needs communication platforms, processes and a commitment to mutua=
l investment in a higher good. They are not simple tasks, and the more di=
fferent communities are affected by a particular standardisation process,=
 the more difficult the organisational challenges become.
---
> The development of formal standards faces a number of economic and orga=
nizational challenges. Mainly, the cost and difficulty of organizing many=
 entities around a mutual goal, as well as the cost of research and devel=
opment leading up to a mutually beneficial technological platform. In add=
ition, deciding what the mutual goal is can also be a problem. These chal=
lenges may be described as inter-organizational costs. Even after a goal =
is decided upon, coordination of multiple entities requires time and mone=
y. One needs communication platforms, processes and a commitment to mutua=
l investment in a higher good. They are not simple tasks, and the more di=
fferent communities are affected by a particular standardization process,=
 the more difficult the organizational challenges become.
395c396
< In the specific case of the IETF there is a strong community ethos and =
transparent procedures, which are documented in RFCs. Nonetheless, the IE=
TF is not immune to externalities. We will describe several of these exte=
rnalities underneath.
---
> In the specific case of the IETF there is a strong community ethos and =
transparent procedures, which are documented in RFCs. Nonetheless, the IE=
TF is not immune to externalities. We will describe several of these exte=
rnalities below.
401c402
< The need for interoperability, and backward compatability makes enginee=
ring work harder. And once a standard is designed, it does not automatica=
lly mean it will be broadly adopted at a fast pace. Examples of this are =
IPv6, DNSSEC, DKIM, etc. The need for interoperability means that a new p=
rotocol needs to take into account a much more diverse environment than e=
arly protocols, and also be amendable to different needs: protocols needs=
 to relate and negotiate in a busy agora, as do the protocol developers. =
This means that some might get priority, whereas others get dropped.
---
> The need for interoperability and backward compatability makes engineer=
ing work harder. And once a standard is designed, it does not automatical=
ly follow that it will be broadly adopted at a fast pace. Examples of thi=
s are IPv6, DNSSEC, DKIM, etc. The need for interoperability means that a=
 new protocol needs to take into account a much more diverse environment =
than early protocols, and also be amenable to different needs: protocols =
need to relate and negotiate in a busy agora, as do the protocol develope=
rs. This means that some might get priority, whereas others get dropped.
410c411
<    "As unequal participants compete to define standards, technological =
compromises emerge, which add complexity to standards. For instance, when=
 working group participants propose competing solutions, it may be easier=
 for them to agree on a standard that combines all the proposals rather t=
han choosing any single proposal. This shifts the responsibility for sele=
cting a solution onto those who implement the standard, which can lead to=
 complex implementations that may not be interoperable. On its face this =
appears to be a failure of the standardization process, but this outcome =
may benefit certain participants=E2=80=94 for example, by allowing an imp=
lementer with large market share to establish a de facto standard within =
the scope of the documented standard."
---
>    "As unequal participants compete to define standards, technological =
compromises emerge, which add complexity to standards. For instance, when=
 working group participants propose competing solutions, it may be easier=
 for them to agree on a standard that combines all the proposals rather t=
han choosing any single proposal. This shifts the responsibility for sele=
cting a solution onto those who implement the standard, which can lead to=
 complex implementations that may not be interoperable. On its face this =
appears to be a failure of the standardization process, but this outcome =
may benefit certain participants -- for example, by allowing an implement=
er with large market share to establish a _de facto_ standard within the =
scope of the documented standard."
416c417
< It is indisputable that the Internet plays an increasingly important ro=
le in the lives of individuals.  The community that produces standards fo=
r the Internet therefore also has an impact on society, which it itself h=
as recognised in a number of previously adopted documents {{RFC1958}}.
---
> It is indisputable that the Internet plays an increasingly important ro=
le in the lives of individuals.  The community that produces standards fo=
r the Internet therefore also has an impact on society, which has been re=
cognized in a number of previously adopted documents {{RFC1958}}.
418c419
< The IETF cannot ordain which standards are to be used on the networks, =
and it specifically does not determine the laws of regions or countries w=
here networks are being used, but it does set open standards for interope=
rability on the Internet, and has done so since the inception of the Inte=
rnet. Because a standard is the blue-print for how to accomplish a partic=
ular task in a similar way to others, the standards adopted have a normat=
ive effect. The standardisation work at the IETF will have implications o=
n what is perceived as technologically possible and useful where networki=
ng technologies are being deployed, and its standards output reflect was =
is considered by the technical community as feasible and good practice.
---
> The IETF cannot ordain which standards are to be used on the networks, =
and it specifically does not determine the laws of regions or countries w=
here networks are being used, but it does set open standards for interope=
rability on the Internet, and has done so since the inception of the Inte=
rnet. Because a standard is the blue-print for how to accomplish a partic=
ular task in a similar way to others, the standards adopted have a normat=
ive effect. The standardization work at the IETF will have implications o=
n what is perceived as technologically possible and useful where networki=
ng technologies are being deployed, and its standards reflect what is con=
sidered by the technical community as feasible and good practice.
429c430,434
< Economics, competition, collaboration, openness, and political impact h=
ave been an inherent part of the work of the IETF since its early beginni=
ngs, by its nature as standards developing organization, through the cont=
ributions of the members of the Internet community, and because the order=
ing effect the Internet has on society. Whereas there might not be agreem=
ent in the Internet community on what the specific political nature is of=
 technological development, it is undisputed that standards and protocols=
 are both product of a political process, and they can also be used for p=
olitical means. Therefore protocols and standards are not value neutral. =
Whereas there is no need for a unified philosophy of Internet protocols, =
it is in the benefit of the IETF, the Internet and arguably society at la=
rge to take this into account in the standards development process. It ca=
n be expected that if the IETF will not take these issues into account, t=
his might lead to interventions in the form of policies and regulations f=
or instance through governmental or intergovernmental bodies, which could=
 hamper the work of the IETF.=20
---
> Economics, competition, collaboration, openness, and political impact h=
ave been an inherent part of the work of the IETF since its early beginni=
ngs, by its nature as a standards development organization, through the c=
ontributions of the members of the Internet community, and because of the=
 ordering effect the Internet has on society.
>=20
> Whereas there might not be agreement in the Internet community on what =
the specific political nature is of technological development, it is undi=
sputed that standards and protocols are both products of a political proc=
ess, and they can also be used for political means. Therefore protocols a=
nd standards are not value neutral. Whereas there is no need for a unifie=
d philosophy of Internet protocols, it is to the benefit of the IETF, the=
 Internet and arguably society at large to take this into account in the =
standards development process.
>=20
> It can be expected that if the IETF will not take these issues into acc=
ount, this might lead to interventions in the form of policies and regula=
tions, for instance through governmental or intergovernmental bodies, whi=
ch could hamper the work of the IETF.=20
436c441
< Since 'de facto standardization is reliant on market forces' {{Hanseth}=
} we need to live with the fact standards bodies have a political nature =
{{Webster}} and are not value neutral. This does not need to be problemat=
ic as long as there are sufficient accountability and transparency mechan=
isms in place. The importance of these mechanisms increases with the impo=
rtance of the standards and their implementations. The complexity of the =
work inscribes a requirement of competence in the work in the IETF, which=
 forms an inherent barrier for end-user involvement. Even though this mig=
ht not be intentional, it is a result of the interplay between the charac=
teristics of the epistemic community in the IETF and the nature of the st=
andard setting process.
---
> Since "de facto standardization is reliant on market forces" {{Hanseth}=
} we need to live with the fact that standards bodies have a political na=
ture {{Webster}} and are not value neutral. This does not need to be prob=
lematic as long as there are adequate accountability and transparency mec=
hanisms in place. The importance of these mechanisms increases with the i=
mportance of the standards and their implementations. The complexity of t=
he work inscribes a requirement of competence in the work of the IETF, wh=
ich forms an inherent barrier for end-user involvement. Even though this =
might not be intentional, it is a result of the interplay between the cha=
racteristics of the epistemic community in the IETF and the nature of the=
 standards setting process.
438c443
< Instead of splitting hairs about whether 'standards are political' {{Wi=
nner}} {{Woolgar}} we argue that we need to look at the politics of indiv=
idual standards and invite document authors and reviewers to take these d=
ynamics into account. If the Internet community fails to do so, this coul=
d undermine the current regime of Internet governance and standard settin=
g.
---
> Instead of splitting hairs about whether "standards are political" {{Wi=
nner}} {{Woolgar}} we argue that we need to look at the politics of indiv=
idual standards and invite document authors and reviewers to take these d=
ynamics into account. If the Internet community fails to do so, this coul=
d undermine the current regime of Internet governance and standards setti=
ng.

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From nobody Thu Mar  7 04:17:44 2019
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Review of draft-irtf-hrpc-political-01
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To: hrpc@irtf.org
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Dear Michael,

Thanks a lot for this very thorough and detailed review! This is much mor=
e than we could have wished for. Please allow me some time to address you=
r comments and suggestions.

Best,

Niels

On 3/6/19 5:53 PM, Michael Rogers wrote:
> Hi all,
>=20
> Neils and Mallory asked me to review the current draft of "Notes on
> networking standards and politics".
>=20
> I'm afraid I went a bit overboard and recommended that it should be
> rewritten as a musical about a plucky kid lost in the big city and her
> scruffy dog sidekick, so please take my comments with plenty of salt.
>=20
> The review's attached, along with a diff against the markdown source
> containing some minor edits to spelling, punctuation and wording.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Michael
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>=20

--=20
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
DATACTIVE Research Group
University of Amsterdam

PGP fingerprint	   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20
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From nobody Sun Mar 10 03:12:26 2019
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Subject: [hrpc] DoH and its deployment
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Two Internet-Drafts have been recently published about DoH
(DNS-over-HTTPS) deployment, draft-reid-doh-operator and
draft-livingood-doh-implementation-risks-issues. They criticize DoH as
allowing a power shift from ISPs and corporate networks to users,
browser makers and US cloud services such as Google's and
Cloudflare's.

This has obvious HR consequences (privacy, control of browsing). Note
that draft-reid-doh-operator even has a "Human rights considerations"
section.

I won't give my opinion here right now but you can follow the discussion here:

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/doh/_J-lTbQB5GUdAuCDucUaTkLwmM8

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/doh/p0q7lWHRuXp-Tzv9Lyiza_OpdTY


From nobody Sun Mar 10 07:58:04 2019
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Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 15:57:57 +0100 (CET)
From: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] DoH and its deployment
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> Il 10 marzo 2019 alle 11.11 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> ha scritto:
> 
> 
> Two Internet-Drafts have been recently published about DoH
> (DNS-over-HTTPS) deployment,

Look, now there's a third one:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients/

(which is meant to have a Human Rights Considerations section, but I didn't have time to write a proper one before the deadline)

Ciao,
-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


From nobody Mon Mar 11 03:20:26 2019
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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 11:20:19 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] DoH and its deployment
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On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 03:57:57PM +0100,
 Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> wrote 
 a message of 18 lines which said:

> > Two Internet-Drafts have been recently published about DoH
> > (DNS-over-HTTPS) deployment,
> 
> Look, now there's a third one:
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients/

The agenda for the DoH working group meeting at IETF 104 (Prague) has
apparently not yet been published but there will be probably one or
two slots about this issue. HRPC people may be interested (as always,
at the IETF, read the drafts first).


From nobody Mon Mar 11 04:47:05 2019
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Subject: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations RG of the IRTF.

        Title           : Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol and Architecture Considerations
        Authors         : Niels ten Oever
                          Gurshabad Grover
	Filename        : draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt
	Pages           : 27
	Date            : 2019-03-11

Abstract:
   This document sets guidelines for human rights considerations in
   networking protocols, similar to the work done on the guidelines for
   privacy considerations [RFC6973].  This is an updated version of the
   guidelines for human rights considerations in [RFC8280].


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Mar 11 09:58:20 2019
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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: doh@ietf.org, dprive@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org
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[Sorry for the long list of working groups but the discussion already
started in different places.]

There are been some discussion about DoH (DNS-over-HTTPS, RFC 8484)
deployment and the risk of centralization of Internet services. (See
for instance drafts [this is not an endorsement]
draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients, draft-reid-doh-operator and
draft-livingood-doh-implementation-risks-issues.)

It was suggested <wikipedia>Reference necessary</wikipedia> to have a
side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in
Tyrolka. The proposal is at
<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>. You
are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.


From nobody Mon Mar 11 10:02:36 2019
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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 18:02:18 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: doh@ietf.org, dns-privacy@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: [hrpc] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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[Resent with the correct list of working groups.]

[Sorry for the long list of working groups but the discussion already
started in different places.]

There are been some discussion about DoH (DNS-over-HTTPS, RFC 8484)
deployment and the risk of centralization of Internet services. (See
for instance drafts [this is not an endorsement]
draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients, draft-reid-doh-operator and
draft-livingood-doh-implementation-risks-issues.)

It was suggested <wikipedia>Reference necessary</wikipedia> to have a
side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in
Tyrolka. The proposal is at
<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>. You
are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.


From nobody Mon Mar 11 10:10:52 2019
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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 10:06:21 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+9kkMDawXJdC4fPihRbL0Ov6Fo4kUmp=RQMRiNzDLnyPLJGow@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Cc: DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>, dprive@ietf.org, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [Doh] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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Hi Stephane,

This conflicts with SECDISPATCH, which will have a pretty serious impact on
who might attend.  Scheduling these things is very hard, obviously. Given
this topic, you may have to move outside the normal agenda time to get a
reasonable shot at avoiding conflict.

Ted

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 9:58 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
wrote:

> [Sorry for the long list of working groups but the discussion already
> started in different places.]
>
> There are been some discussion about DoH (DNS-over-HTTPS, RFC 8484)
> deployment and the risk of centralization of Internet services. (See
> for instance drafts [this is not an endorsement]
> draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients, draft-reid-doh-operator and
> draft-livingood-doh-implementation-risks-issues.)
>
> It was suggested <wikipedia>Reference necessary</wikipedia> to have a
> side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in
> Tyrolka. The proposal is at
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>. You
> are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Doh mailing list
> Doh@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Stephane,</div><div><br></div><div>This conflicts =
with SECDISPATCH, which will have a pretty serious impact on who might atte=
nd.=C2=A0 Scheduling these things is very hard, obviously. Given this topic=
, you may have to move outside the normal agenda time to get a reasonable s=
hot at avoiding conflict.</div><div><br></div><div>Ted<br></div></div><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar=
 11, 2019 at 9:58 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bortzmeyer@n=
ic.fr">bortzmeyer@nic.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex">[Sorry for the long list of working groups but the =
discussion already<br>
started in different places.]<br>
<br>
There are been some discussion about DoH (DNS-over-HTTPS, RFC 8484)<br>
deployment and the risk of centralization of Internet services. (See<br>
for instance drafts [this is not an endorsement]<br>
draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients, draft-reid-doh-operator and<br>
draft-livingood-doh-implementation-risks-issues.)<br>
<br>
It was suggested &lt;wikipedia&gt;Reference necessary&lt;/wikipedia&gt; to =
have a<br>
side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in<br>
Tyrolka. The proposal is at<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meet=
ing/wiki/104sidemeetings</a>&gt;. You<br>
are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Doh mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Doh@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Doh@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000001079810583d499d8--


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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 18:13:38 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>, dns-privacy@ietf.org, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [Doh] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 10:06:21AM -0700,
 Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote 
 a message of 76 lines which said:

> This conflicts with SECDISPATCH, which will have a pretty serious impact on
> who might attend.  Scheduling these things is very hard, obviously. Given
> this topic, you may have to move outside the normal agenda time to get a
> reasonable shot at avoiding conflict.

I avoided conflicts with doh, dprive, dnsop and hrpc but avoiding all
conflicts is close-to-impossible. In the evening, people have
meetings, too.

I admit I'm not sure that Secdispatch is so important here. The
subject of the side meeting is not security-specific.


From nobody Mon Mar 11 10:19:03 2019
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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 10:18:21 -0700
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On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 10:13 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 10:06:21AM -0700,
>  Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote
>  a message of 76 lines which said:
>
> > This conflicts with SECDISPATCH, which will have a pretty serious impact
> on
> > who might attend.  Scheduling these things is very hard, obviously. Given
> > this topic, you may have to move outside the normal agenda time to get a
> > reasonable shot at avoiding conflict.
>
> I avoided conflicts with doh, dprive, dnsop and hrpc but avoiding all
> conflicts is close-to-impossible. In the evening, people have
> meetings, too.
>
> I admit I'm not sure that Secdispatch is so important here. The
> subject of the side meeting is not security-specific.
>

It is certainly not only about security, but there are several important
security trade-offs in play with these choices.  Secdispatch pulls pretty
much the entire Security Area, and a conflict seems to me personally very
unfortunate in its scope.

regards,

Ted

--000000000000ef78d00583d4c3c2
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 10:13 AM Stephane=
 Bortzmeyer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr">bortzmeyer@nic.fr</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex">On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 10:06:21AM -0700,<br>
=C2=A0Ted Hardie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">ted.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote <br>
=C2=A0a message of 76 lines which said:<br>
<br>
&gt; This conflicts with SECDISPATCH, which will have a pretty serious impa=
ct on<br>
&gt; who might attend.=C2=A0 Scheduling these things is very hard, obviousl=
y. Given<br>
&gt; this topic, you may have to move outside the normal agenda time to get=
 a<br>
&gt; reasonable shot at avoiding conflict.<br>
<br>
I avoided conflicts with doh, dprive, dnsop and hrpc but avoiding all<br>
conflicts is close-to-impossible. In the evening, people have<br>
meetings, too.<br>
<br>
I admit I&#39;m not sure that Secdispatch is so important here. The<br>
subject of the side meeting is not security-specific.<br></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>It is certainly not only about security, but there are sever=
al important security trade-offs in play with these choices.=C2=A0 Secdispa=
tch pulls pretty much the entire Security Area, and a conflict seems to me =
personally very unfortunate in its scope.=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Ted<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></=
div>

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On 3/11/19 9:13 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> I admit I'm not sure that Secdispatch is so important here. The
> subject of the side meeting is not security-specific.

It also conflicts with irtfopen, which may impact the
availability of pearg people, hrpc folk, etc.

Melinda

-- 
Software longa, hardware brevis

PGP key fingerprint  4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2
                     34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F


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From: Allison Mankin <allison.mankin@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:32:20 -0400
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--0000000000001b2c4c0583d4f315
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I'd appreciate it not conflicting with IRTFOPEN.  The ANRP topics include
how Facebook manipulates routing and a big study on QUIC, and I think there
should be participant overlap.

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 at 13:22, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net>
wrote:

> On 3/11/19 9:13 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> > I admit I'm not sure that Secdispatch is so important here. The
> > subject of the side meeting is not security-specific.
>
> It also conflicts with irtfopen, which may impact the
> availability of pearg people, hrpc folk, etc.
>
> Melinda
>
> --
> Software longa, hardware brevis
>
> PGP key fingerprint  4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2
>                      34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F
>
> _______________________________________________
> dns-privacy mailing list
> dns-privacy@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dns-privacy
>

--0000000000001b2c4c0583d4f315
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif">I&#39;d appreciate it not conflicting with IRTFOPEN.=C2=
=A0 The ANRP topics include how Facebook manipulates routing and a big stud=
y on QUIC, and I think there should be participant overlap.<br></div></div>=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon=
, 11 Mar 2019 at 13:22, Melinda Shore &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:melinda.shore@n=
omountain.net">melinda.shore@nomountain.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 3/11/19 9:13 AM, Stephane Bor=
tzmeyer wrote:<br>
&gt; I admit I&#39;m not sure that Secdispatch is so important here. The<br=
>
&gt; subject of the side meeting is not security-specific.<br>
<br>
It also conflicts with irtfopen, which may impact the<br>
availability of pearg people, hrpc folk, etc.<br>
<br>
Melinda<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Software longa, hardware brevis<br>
<br>
PGP key fingerprint=C2=A0 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A034C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
dns-privacy mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dns-privacy@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dns-privacy@ietf.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dns-privacy" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dns-privacy</=
a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000001b2c4c0583d4f315--


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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 18:57:03 +0100 (CET)
From: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, doh@ietf.org, dns-privacy@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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> Il 11 marzo 2019 alle 18.02 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> ha scritto:
> 
> It was suggested <wikipedia>Reference necessary</wikipedia> to have a
> side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in
> Tyrolka. The proposal is at
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>. You
> are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.

Why not in the Wednesday timeslot that was specifically set aside for side meetings? Also, I'm wondering whether a 40-people room is enough (may be, may be not).

Moreover, centralization is not the only Do*-related problem category that has been raised (my draft alone lists eight others). So the focus of the meeting should be on whether, where and how to deal with all of them, though some of them may later be deemed off mission for the IETF. But first of all we need to agree on a venue and process.

Ciao,
-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


From nobody Mon Mar 11 10:59:18 2019
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From: Allison Mankin <allison.mankin@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:59:25 -0400
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To: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>, DPRIVE WG <dns-privacy@ietf.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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Perfect idea, very good use of the Wednesday slot.



On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 at 13:57, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=
40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> > Il 11 marzo 2019 alle 18.02 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> ha
> scritto:
> >
> > It was suggested <wikipedia>Reference necessary</wikipedia> to have a
> > side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in
> > Tyrolka. The proposal is at
> > <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>. You
> > are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.
>
> Why not in the Wednesday timeslot that was specifically set aside for side
> meetings? Also, I'm wondering whether a 40-people room is enough (may be,
> may be not).
>
> Moreover, centralization is not the only Do*-related problem category that
> has been raised (my draft alone lists eight others). So the focus of the
> meeting should be on whether, where and how to deal with all of them,
> though some of them may later be deemed off mission for the IETF. But first
> of all we need to agree on a venue and process.
>
> Ciao,
> --
>
> Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
> vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
> Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif">Perfect idea, very good use of the Wednesday slot.<br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 at 13:57, Vittorio Berto=
la &lt;vittorio.bertola=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg">40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">&gt; Il 11 marzo 2019 alle 18.02 Steph=
ane Bortzmeyer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr" target=3D"_blank">b=
ortzmeyer@nic.fr</a>&gt; ha scritto:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It was suggested &lt;wikipedia&gt;Reference necessary&lt;/wikipedia&gt=
; to have a<br>
&gt; side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in<br>
&gt; Tyrolka. The proposal is at<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemee=
tings" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf=
/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings</a>&gt;. You<br>
&gt; are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.<br>
<br>
Why not in the Wednesday timeslot that was specifically set aside for side =
meetings? Also, I&#39;m wondering whether a 40-people room is enough (may b=
e, may be not).<br>
<br>
Moreover, centralization is not the only Do*-related problem category that =
has been raised (my draft alone lists eight others). So the focus of the me=
eting should be on whether, where and how to deal with all of them, though =
some of them may later be deemed off mission for the IETF. But first of all=
 we need to agree on a venue and process.<br>
<br>
Ciao,<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy &amp; Innovation, Open-Xchange<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com" target=3D"_blank">vitt=
orio.bertola@open-xchange.com</a><br>
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
hrpc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">hrpc@irtf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 15:45:24 +0900
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [Doh] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:58 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
wrote:

> [Sorry for the long list of working groups but the discussion already
> started in different places.]
>
> There are been some discussion about DoH (DNS-over-HTTPS, RFC 8484)
> deployment and the risk of centralization of Internet services.

(See
> for instance drafts [this is not an endorsement]
> draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients, draft-reid-doh-operator and
> draft-livingood-doh-implementation-risks-issues.)
>
> It was suggested <wikipedia>Reference necessary</wikipedia> to have a
> side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in
> Tyrolka. The proposal is at
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>. You
> are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.
>

[ Replying here instead of bottom of thread ]

Thank you for proposing / organizing this - there has been a lot of
discussions, but (as demonstrated by the list of WGs in the To: line) it is
somewhat unclear where the discussions should happen -- I'm planning on
asking the secretariat to please make us a mailing list to better focus the
discussions -- does anyone have a strong objection to this?

(also, a good suggestion for a name would be helpful :-))

W



>
> _______________________________________________
> Doh mailing list
> Doh@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh
>


-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in
the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of
pants.
   ---maf

--000000000000f391f30583e00a22
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:58 AM Stephane=
 Bortzmeyer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr">bortzmeyer@nic.fr</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">[Sorr=
y for the long list of working groups but the discussion already<br>
started in different places.]<br>
<br>
There are been some discussion about DoH (DNS-over-HTTPS, RFC 8484)<br>
deployment and the risk of centralization of Internet services.=C2=A0</bloc=
kquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">(See<br>
for instance drafts [this is not an endorsement]<br>
draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients, draft-reid-doh-operator and<br>
draft-livingood-doh-implementation-risks-issues.)<br>
<br>
It was suggested &lt;wikipedia&gt;Reference necessary&lt;/wikipedia&gt; to =
have a<br>
side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in<br>
Tyrolka. The proposal is at<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meet=
ing/wiki/104sidemeetings</a>&gt;. You<br>
are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.<br></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,san=
s-serif">[ Replying here instead of bottom of thread ]</div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thank you for p=
roposing / organizing this - there has been a lot of discussions, but (as d=
emonstrated by the list of WGs in the To: line) it is somewhat unclear wher=
e the discussions should happen -- I&#39;m planning on asking the secretari=
at to please make us a mailing list to better focus the discussions -- does=
 anyone have a strong objection to this?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">(also, a good suggestio=
n for a name would be helpful :-))</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">W</div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Doh mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Doh@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Doh@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature">I don&#39;t think the execution is relevant when=
 it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br>This is like putting ra=
bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho=
se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<=
/div></div>

--000000000000f391f30583e00a22--


From nobody Tue Mar 12 00:19:48 2019
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From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>, hrpc@irtf.org, dprive@ietf.org
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [Doh] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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Warren,

I would suggest that you wait on creating a new list.

I think Stephane was proposing an *in person* meeting, using the =
104sidemeetings Wiki, and I=E2=80=99d like to see that happen first.  =
That also gives time for the dust from the release of these new drafts =
to settle a bit, so that the contours of what can be reasonably =
accomplished becomes more clear.

Eliot


> On 12 Mar 2019, at 07:45, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:58 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr =
<mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr>> wrote:
> [Sorry for the long list of working groups but the discussion already
> started in different places.]
>=20
> There are been some discussion about DoH (DNS-over-HTTPS, RFC 8484)
> deployment and the risk of centralization of Internet services.
> (See
> for instance drafts [this is not an endorsement]
> draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients, draft-reid-doh-operator and
> draft-livingood-doh-implementation-risks-issues.)
>=20
> It was suggested <wikipedia>Reference necessary</wikipedia> to have a
> side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in
> Tyrolka. The proposal is at
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings =
<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>>. You
> are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.
>=20
> [ Replying here instead of bottom of thread ]
>=20
> Thank you for proposing / organizing this - there has been a lot of =
discussions, but (as demonstrated by the list of WGs in the To: line) it =
is somewhat unclear where the discussions should happen -- I'm planning =
on asking the secretariat to please make us a mailing list to better =
focus the discussions -- does anyone have a strong objection to this?
>=20
> (also, a good suggestion for a name would be helpful :-))
>=20
> W
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Doh mailing list
> Doh@ietf.org <mailto:Doh@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh>
>=20
>=20
> --
> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad =
idea in the first place.
> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing =
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of =
pants.
>    ---maf
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Warren,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
would suggest that you wait on creating a new list.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think Stephane was =
proposing an *in person* meeting, using the 104sidemeetings Wiki, and =
I=E2=80=99d like to see that happen first. &nbsp;That also gives time =
for the dust from the release of these new drafts to settle a bit, so =
that the contours of what can be reasonably accomplished becomes more =
clear.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Eliot</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 12 Mar 2019, at 07:45, =
Warren Kumari &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:warren@kumari.net" =
class=3D"">warren@kumari.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:58 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr" =
class=3D"">bortzmeyer@nic.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">[Sorry for the long list of working =
groups but the discussion already<br class=3D"">
started in different places.]<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
There are been some discussion about DoH (DNS-over-HTTPS, RFC 8484)<br =
class=3D"">
deployment and the risk of centralization of Internet =
services.&nbsp;</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">(See<br class=3D"">
for instance drafts [this is not an endorsement]<br class=3D"">
draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients, draft-reid-doh-operator and<br class=3D"">
draft-livingood-doh-implementation-risks-issues.)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
It was suggested &lt;wikipedia&gt;Reference necessary&lt;/wikipedia&gt; =
to have a<br class=3D"">
side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in<br =
class=3D"">
Tyrolka. The proposal is at<br class=3D"">
&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings</a=
>&gt;. You<br class=3D"">
are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">[ Replying here instead of =
bottom of thread ]</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thank =
you for proposing / organizing this - there has been a lot of =
discussions, but (as demonstrated by the list of WGs in the To: line) it =
is somewhat unclear where the discussions should happen -- I'm planning =
on asking the secretariat to please make us a mailing list to better =
focus the discussions -- does anyone have a strong objection to =
this?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">(also, =
a good suggestion for a name would be helpful :-))</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">W</div><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
Doh mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Doh@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Doh@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh</a><br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>-- <br class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_signature">I don't think the execution is relevant when =
it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br class=3D"">This is =
like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at =
having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;---maf</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">hrpc =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" =
class=3D"">hrpc@irtf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue Mar 12 01:58:21 2019
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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>, DPRIVE WG <dns-privacy@ietf.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 01:59:25PM -0400,
 Allison Mankin <allison.mankin@gmail.com> wrote 
 a message of 94 lines which said:

> Perfect idea, very good use of the Wednesday slot.

New date and place registered at
<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>,
wednesday, Karlin 1/2, 1500 to 1700. (Note there is registry lock side
meeting just before, for domain name industry people.)


From nobody Tue Mar 12 02:01:47 2019
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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 10:01:42 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, doh@ietf.org, dns-privacy@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 06:57:03PM +0100,
 Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> wrote 
 a message of 18 lines which said:

> Moreover, centralization is not the only Do*-related problem
> category that has been raised (my draft alone lists eight others).

IMHO, this is precisely the biggest problem with these three drafts:
they accumulate a lot of unrelated rants, and it is important to split
between issues that are really DoH-specific from more general issues.

Warren Kumari did a good job of sorting that out in
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/GaO9UDiVCeAzCKxbPt5V1D9N450>. I
quote him:

1: the protocol,
2: the deployment concerns,
3: "resolverless DNS",
4: the loss of visibility from encrypting the DNS

IMHO, this makes several side meetings. People are welcome to organize
more.


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From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= <ximaera@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 12:05:12 +0300
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Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>, hrpc@irtf.org, dprive@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] [Doh] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 9:46 AM Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:
> also, a good suggestion for a name would be helpful :-)

That is, aside from "scent" which is as obvious, as it is weird?

--
T=C3=B6ma


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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 20:14:49 +1100
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To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [Doh] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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Hi,

I'm already starting to pile up conflicts on Wednesday. I'm also very =
conscious that we had a side meeting about similar issues in Singapore =
(IIRC), and didn't make much progress at all in that time. Are we going =
to be able to productively use two hours for this? Could we come up with =
a more focused agenda and just use an hour?

Cheers,
=20

> On 12 Mar 2019, at 7:57 pm, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> =
wrote:
>=20
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 01:59:25PM -0400,
> Allison Mankin <allison.mankin@gmail.com> wrote=20
> a message of 94 lines which said:
>=20
>> Perfect idea, very good use of the Wednesday slot.
>=20
> New date and place registered at
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>,
> wednesday, Karlin 1/2, 1500 to 1700. (Note there is registry lock side
> meeting just before, for domain name industry people.)
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Doh mailing list
> Doh@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [Doh] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 08:14:49PM +1100,
 Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote 
 a message of 32 lines which said:

> I'm also very conscious that we had a side meeting about similar
> issues in Singapore (IIRC), and didn't make much progress at all in
> that time.

This time, we have drafts (poor ones, IMHO, but it's better than a
discussion without written proposals).

> Are we going to be able to productively use two hours for this?
> Could we come up with a more focused agenda and just use an hour?

You are the first to suggest to focus, until now, all remarks (both on
and off-list) have been people asking to *enlarge* the agenda :-)


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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 10:46:35 +0100 (CET)
From: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Cc: doh@ietf.org, dns-privacy@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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> Il 12 marzo 2019 alle 10.01 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> ha scritto:
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 06:57:03PM +0100,
>  Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> wrote 
>  a message of 18 lines which said:
> 
> > Moreover, centralization is not the only Do*-related problem
> > category that has been raised (my draft alone lists eight others).
> 
> IMHO, this is precisely the biggest problem with these three drafts:
> they accumulate a lot of unrelated rants, 

They are not unrelated, they are all effects of the same thing and you cannot deal with them separately, as some practices that would address one of the problems could worsen some of the others. Also, the fact that some of these are not problems for you does not imply that they are not problems for others, and if you want to get consensus, you have to address everyone's concerns and not just yours.

Also, the reason why this is a difficult problem is exactly that it affects many things at once. It is fine to break down the analysis into single issues, but when it comes to what to do next, if you start several parallel work threads without any clear coordination plan, you will just end up with several conflicting proposals.

So, rather than focusing on any specific entry of the list of issues, I think that the most urgent thing to discuss would be where to have the discussion (so that we can stop crossposting entire threads to four groups) and how to organize it (objectives, working items etc.).

Ciao,
-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


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From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
To: dnsop@ietf.org
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>, dns-privacy@ietf.org, doh@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 18:52:43 +0000
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Organization: Vixie Freehold
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On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 09:01:42 UTC Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 06:57:03PM +0100,
>  Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> wrote
> 
>  a message of 18 lines which said:
> > Moreover, centralization is not the only Do*-related problem
> > category that has been raised (my draft alone lists eight others).
> 
> IMHO, this is precisely the biggest problem with these three drafts:
> they accumulate a lot of unrelated rants, and it is important to split
> between issues that are really DoH-specific from more general issues.

when you refer to something as a rant, you diminish and disrespect it.

any concern about the inability of a network operator to maintain possession 
of their RDNS control plane is on-topic for DoH, simply because RFC 8484's 
stated goal is to prevent on-path interference with DNS operations.

please do not relegate discussions about the loss of operator control over the 
RDNS control plane to some mailing list where DoH is not front-and-center. 
their intentions were clear. therefore they should participate in the results.

> 
> Warren Kumari did a good job of sorting that out in
> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/GaO9UDiVCeAzCKxbPt5V1D9N450>. I
> quote him:
> 
> 1: the protocol,
> 2: the deployment concerns,
> 3: "resolverless DNS",
> 4: the loss of visibility from encrypting the DNS

that is a useless distinction.

> 
> IMHO, this makes several side meetings. People are welcome to organize
> more.

in usenet, we used to say "please take this to some mailing list" by which we 
meant "...that i won't be joining, so that i no longer have to listen to you."

so far, most responses to RDNS control plane ownership issues have received a 
similar response. "please find someone who cares, and talk to them about it."

that's going to make the coming fight harder. we should be looking to make it 
easier.

vixie



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On Mar 12, 2019, at 2:52 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> please do not relegate discussions about the loss of operator control =
over the=20
> RDNS control plane

Although it=E2=80=99s certainly true that DNS is used as a control plane =
by many operators, there is no standard =E2=80=9CRDNS control plane.=E2=80=
=9D   If you think there should be, that=E2=80=99s something that the =
IETF could conceivably work on, but it=E2=80=99s not something that the =
DoH working group is obligated to treat as a standard use of DNS.   And =
I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a topic on which there is consensus =
in the IETF.

The problem with the discussion we=E2=80=99ve been having about DoH and =
how it affects your =E2=80=9CRDNS control plane=E2=80=9D is that we=E2=80=99=
re talking past each other, not that the discussion should be had =
elsewhere.   It=E2=80=99s fine for there to be a discussion, but if =
there is going to be a discussion, participants need to engage =
constructively, and not just fling slogans at each other.



--Apple-Mail=_291E4122-A17D-40E5-99D4-F436A0582FAA
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Mar 12, 2019, at 2:52 PM, Paul Vixie &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org" class=3D"">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">please do not =
relegate discussions about the loss of operator control over the<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">RDNS control =
plane</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Although it=E2=80=99s certainly true that DNS is used as a =
control plane by many operators, there is no standard =E2=80=9CRDNS =
control plane.=E2=80=9D &nbsp; If you think there should be, that=E2=80=99=
s something that the IETF could conceivably work on, but it=E2=80=99s =
not something that the DoH working group is obligated to treat as a =
standard use of DNS. &nbsp; And I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a =
topic on which there is consensus in the IETF.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The problem with the discussion we=E2=80=99=
ve been having about DoH and how it affects your =E2=80=9CRDNS control =
plane=E2=80=9D is that we=E2=80=99re talking past each other, not that =
the discussion should be had elsewhere. &nbsp; It=E2=80=99s fine for =
there to be a discussion, but if there is going to be a discussion, =
participants need to engage constructively, and not just fling slogans =
at each other.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_291E4122-A17D-40E5-99D4-F436A0582FAA--


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To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Cc: dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, hrpc@irtf.org, dprive@ietf.org
References: <20190311165813.ilrz5ocxomraavbq@nic.fr> <CAHw9_iJsq=gb4OGr=t8mDKm12KYiMavT61fsaS2PjPjz2wnz1w@mail.gmail.com> <001FFADB-4095-471A-9A4C-61AC8B3799AB@cisco.com>
From: Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org>
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Organization: ARTICLE19
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [Doh] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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Dear all,

+1 on Eliot and thank you Stephane. My deepest appreciation for T=C3=B6ma=
s
suggestion that really made my evening.

An in-person meeting might be conducive to fleshing out a topic for this
meeting, but at least to me "services centralization" rings like it
might also concern detnet, quic and perhaps other groups that I cannot
immediately think of.

Probably we mean "DNS service centralization"?

best regards,

Amelia


On 2019-03-12 08:19, Eliot Lear wrote:
> Warren,
>
> I would suggest that you wait on creating a new list.
>
> I think Stephane was proposing an *in person* meeting, using the
> 104sidemeetings Wiki, and I=E2=80=99d like to see that happen first. =C2=
=A0That
> also gives time for the dust from the release of these new drafts to
> settle a bit, so that the contours of what can be reasonably
> accomplished becomes more clear.
>
> Eliot
>
>
>> On 12 Mar 2019, at 07:45, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net
>> <mailto:warren@kumari.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:58 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer
>> <bortzmeyer@nic.fr <mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr>> wrote:
>>
>>     [Sorry for the long list of working groups but the discussion alre=
ady
>>     started in different places.]
>>
>>     There are been some discussion about DoH (DNS-over-HTTPS, RFC 8484=
)
>>     deployment and the risk of centralization of Internet services.=C2=
=A0
>>
>>     (See
>>     for instance drafts [this is not an endorsement]
>>     draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients, draft-reid-doh-operator and
>>     draft-livingood-doh-implementation-risks-issues.)
>>
>>     It was suggested <wikipedia>Reference necessary</wikipedia> to hav=
e a
>>     side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I propose monday, 1400-1600 in
>>     Tyrolka. The proposal is at
>>     <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>. Yo=
u
>>     are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.
>>
>>
>> [ Replying here instead of bottom of thread ]
>>
>> Thank you for proposing / organizing this - there has been a lot of
>> discussions, but (as demonstrated by the list of WGs in the To: line)
>> it is somewhat unclear where the discussions should happen -- I'm
>> planning on asking the secretariat to please make us a mailing list
>> to better focus the discussions -- does anyone have a strong
>> objection to this?=C2=A0
>>
>> (also, a good suggestion for a name would be helpful :-))
>>
>> W
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Doh mailing list
>>     Doh@ietf.org <mailto:Doh@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh
>>
>>
>>
>> --=20
>> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
>> idea in the first place.
>> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later
>> expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and
>> that pair of pants.
>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf
>> _______________________________________________
>> hrpc mailing list
>> hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


From nobody Wed Mar 13 22:32:54 2019
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From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>, doh@ietf.org, dns-privacy@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 05:32:48 +0000
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Organization: Vixie Freehold
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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On Thursday, 14 March 2019 00:48:53 UTC Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Mar 12, 2019, at 2:52 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> > please do not relegate discussions about the loss of operator control o=
ver
> > the RDNS control plane
>=20
> Although it=E2=80=99s certainly true that DNS is used as a control plane =
by many
> operators, there is no standard =E2=80=9CRDNS control plane.=E2=80=9D   .=
=2E.

i don't think lack of standardization is the same as not existing. devices=
=20
which honour the dhcp-assigned rdns service, work as expected, and as=20
intended. devices who ignore that setting and seek their own rdns by their =
own=20
internal configuration, will often not work at all.

because many of us amend our locally visible dns namespace with things like=
=20
=2Ecorp or .home or .local, it's even more vital that devices respect the r=
dns=20
assignment i make. the dns content i want to be visible on my network, have=
 to=20
be visible on my network.

because many of us won't allow pirate or malware or otherwise undesired DNS=
=20
lookups to succeed, either because we don't like the name, or we don't like=
=20
the result of the query, or we don't like some name server that would be=20
involved in resolving it. the dns content i don't want to be visible on my=
=20
network, have to not be visible on my network.

from the days before dhcp when we typed these numbers in by hand, until now=
,=20
it has always been the expectation that rdns was part-and-parcel of local=20
network service. no different in that regard from dhcp or arp, neither of=20
which is standardized under the heading, "control plane", yet, are.

so i think i'm not going to follow you down this terminological rabbit hole=
=2E=20
the reason that internet creations of yours will work better on my network =
if=20
you treat the rdns as part of my control plane is, because it's my network =
and=20
that's how i operate it. you're not welcome to bypass it, nor answer dhcp=20
requests when you're not my dhcp server, nor answer arp requests when you=20
aren't the device i assigned that address to.

you can call that tautological if you wish. but it's the life my networks=20
lead. external DoH providers are explicitly not welcome to provide service =
to=20
malware or intruders who get into my network -- because rdns is part of my=
=20
control plane, and like arp and dhcp, i control it and i monitor it, for=20
$reasons.

> The problem with the discussion we=E2=80=99ve been having about DoH and h=
ow it
> affects your =E2=80=9CRDNS control plane=E2=80=9D is that we=E2=80=99re t=
alking past each other,
> not that the discussion should be had elsewhere.   It=E2=80=99s fine for =
there to
> be a discussion, but if there is going to be a discussion, participants
> need to engage constructively, and not just fling slogans at each other.

i think i've flung considerably more than slogans, and, it's been exhaustin=
g.

vixie



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From: "Ralf Weber" <dns@fl1ger.de>
To: "Ted Lemon" <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: "Paul Vixie" <paul@redbarn.org>, dns-privacy@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, doh@ietf.org, "Vittorio Bertola" <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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Moin!

On 13 Mar 2019, at 20:48, Ted Lemon wrote:

> On Mar 12, 2019, at 2:52 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
>> please do not relegate discussions about the loss of operator control 
>> over the
>> RDNS control plane
>
> Although it’s certainly true that DNS is used as a control plane by 
> many operators, there is no standard “RDNS control plane.”   If 
> you think there should be, that’s something that the IETF could 
> conceivably work on, but it’s not something that the DoH working 
> group is obligated to treat as a standard use of DNS.   And I don’t 
> think it’s a topic on which there is consensus in the IETF.
Well as you said it is something that will not get consensus at the 
IETF, so why work on that? However as you said these RDNS control planes 
exist in real life and even if there is no IETF standard for it, the 
IETF should consider actual deployments when doing work and not just 
IETF standards IMHO and that is what the drafts out there trying to do, 
bring the view of people operating these services into the IETF.

> The problem with the discussion we’ve been having about DoH and how 
> it affects your “RDNS control plane” is that we’re talking past 
> each other, not that the discussion should be had elsewhere.   It’s 
> fine for there to be a discussion, but if there is going to be a 
> discussion, participants need to engage constructively, and not just 
> fling slogans at each other.
So you are ok with having this discussion in DoH, which is good, as the 
DoH protocol caused some application providers to experiment with 
switching resolution per default away from OS and the local network 
provider. A lot of the exhausting thread however was about moving the 
discussion away from DoH. I’ll personally have the discussion 
anywhere, but given that the drafts have been given time in doh and 
people might have planned there schedule around that it should be the 
place. I also think Paul and others have engaged constructive in the 
discussion about the topic.


So long
-Ralf
—--
Ralf Weber


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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: Ralf Weber <dns@fl1ger.de>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>, doh@ietf.org,
 dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>, hrpc@irtf.org,
 dns-privacy@ietf.org
Message-ID: <6a6b463c-0e67-c0cd-ca12-ea3dd298c401@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] Proposal for a side-meeting on services
 centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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Hiya,

On 14/03/2019 14:41, Ralf Weber wrote:
> the DoH protocol caused some application providers to experiment with
> switching resolution per default away from OS and the local network pro=
vider

I wasn't aware that some application provider was doing this
as their default (assuming that's what "per default" means).
Can you provide details?

I am aware of what FF/CF have done but I don't believe that
was on by default.

Thanks,
S.

PS: Apologies if there's a reference in one of the I-Ds, but
I don't recall there being one for that assertion.


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From nobody Thu Mar 14 08:17:55 2019
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From: "Ralf Weber" <dns@fl1ger.de>
To: "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: "Ted Lemon" <mellon@fugue.com>, "Vittorio Bertola" <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>, doh@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, "Paul Vixie" <paul@redbarn.org>, hrpc@irtf.org, dns-privacy@ietf.org
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 11:17:23 -0400
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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Moin!

On 14 Mar 2019, at 10:53, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> On 14/03/2019 14:41, Ralf Weber wrote:
>> the DoH protocol caused some application providers to experiment with
>> switching resolution per default away from OS and the local network =

>> provider
>
> I wasn't aware that some application provider was doing this
> as their default (assuming that's what "per default" means).
> Can you provide details?
The experiment Mozilla did switched these 25000 users to use DoH and
gave that option as the default option:
	https://blog.nightly.mozilla.org/2018/08/28/firefox-nightly-secure-dns-e=
xperimental-results/

> I am aware of what FF/CF have done but I don't believe that
> was on by default.
It was only for nightly users and only for users that have opted in for
experiments, but it still IMHO gave a bad impression, as it was viewed
by many as a plan send all future DNS traffic to Cloudflare.

I still think giving a singular known option as it is the case currently =

if
you click the Dns over HTTPs button in Firefox is a bad idea, but at =

least
it is off per default.

So long
-Ralf
=E2=80=94--
Ralf Weber


From nobody Thu Mar 14 09:34:10 2019
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Cc: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>, dns-privacy@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, doh@ietf.org, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>, hrpc@irtf.org
To: Ralf Weber <dns@fl1ger.de>
References: <20190311170218.o5hitvysuefhjjxk@nic.fr> <1829067625.16839.1552327024048@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <20190312090142.s32hdimbozsrbovt@nic.fr> <2044747.4WdMZHU4Qz@linux-9daj> <D97261BB-1D62-400F-8EBD-886B5BA586BD@fugue.com> <897EAAF7-0EF8-484A-B785-E4C46FCFA87F@fl1ger.de>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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On Mar 14, 2019, at 10:41 AM, Ralf Weber <dns@fl1ger.de> wrote:
> Well as you said it is something that will not get consensus at the =
IETF, so why work on that? However as you said these RDNS control planes =
exist in real life and even if there is no IETF standard for it, the =
IETF should consider actual deployments when doing work and not just =
IETF standards IMHO and that is what the drafts out there trying to do, =
bring the view of people operating these services into the IETF.

Sorry, I expressed myself fairly poorly.

What I mean is that it=E2=80=99s important to agree on what we are =
talking about before we try to talk about it, because otherwise a lot of =
useless back-and-forth happens where one person is arguing from one set =
of assumptions, and another person is arguing from a different set of =
assumptions, and neither is able to feel heard.

It can feel very political to go meta on a discussion like this, but I =
think it=E2=80=99s important for people to actually agree on what the =
various views are of the problem and solution spaces.   That is, not =
agree that this problem is the correct view of the problem, or that that =
solution is the correct solution to a problem, but to enumerate all the =
views of the problem that various participants have, and enumerate all =
the solutions to these various problems that people are interested in.

With that overview, a winnowing process is possible; without it, we just =
have endless non-terminal discussion.


--Apple-Mail=_7F672512-CDB8-49F2-BE3F-0ACAD2D4D1D1
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Mar 14, 2019, at 10:41 AM, Ralf Weber &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dns@fl1ger.de"=
 class=3D"">dns@fl1ger.de</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Well as you said it is something that will not get consensus =
at the IETF, so why work on that? However as you said these RDNS control =
planes exist in real life and even if there is no IETF standard for it, =
the IETF should consider actual deployments when doing work and not just =
IETF standards IMHO and that is what the drafts out there trying to do, =
bring the view of people operating these services into the =
IETF.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Sorry, I expressed myself fairly poorly.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What I mean is that =
it=E2=80=99s important to agree on what we are talking about before we =
try to talk about it, because otherwise a lot of useless back-and-forth =
happens where one person is arguing from one set of assumptions, and =
another person is arguing from a different set of assumptions, and =
neither is able to feel heard.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It can feel very political to go meta =
on a discussion like this, but I think it=E2=80=99s important for people =
to actually agree on what the various views are of the problem and =
solution spaces. &nbsp; That is, not agree that this problem is the =
correct view of the problem, or that that solution is the correct =
solution to a problem, but to enumerate all the views of the problem =
that various participants have, and enumerate all the solutions to these =
various problems that people are interested in.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With that overview, a winnowing process =
is possible; without it, we just have endless non-terminal =
discussion.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Vinicius Fortuna [vee-NEE-see.oos]" <fortuna@google.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 13:50:44 -0400
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To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
Cc: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, dns-privacy@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, doh@ietf.org,  Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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Paul, I'm trying to understand your scenario.

If you ran your own DoH server in your network (doing RDNS or whatnot), and
the DoH server is distributed to clients via DHCP + a protocol upgrade
mechanism, would that address the concerns you are listing?

Vinicius Fortuna

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 1:33 AM Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:

> On Thursday, 14 March 2019 00:48:53 UTC Ted Lemon wrote:
> > On Mar 12, 2019, at 2:52 PM, Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote:
> > > please do not relegate discussions about the loss of operator control
> over
> > > the RDNS control plane
> >
> > Although it=E2=80=99s certainly true that DNS is used as a control plan=
e by many
> > operators, there is no standard =E2=80=9CRDNS control plane.=E2=80=9D  =
 ...
>
> i don't think lack of standardization is the same as not existing. device=
s
> which honour the dhcp-assigned rdns service, work as expected, and as
> intended. devices who ignore that setting and seek their own rdns by thei=
r
> own
> internal configuration, will often not work at all.
>
> because many of us amend our locally visible dns namespace with things
> like
> .corp or .home or .local, it's even more vital that devices respect the
> rdns
> assignment i make. the dns content i want to be visible on my network,
> have to
> be visible on my network.
>
> because many of us won't allow pirate or malware or otherwise undesired
> DNS
> lookups to succeed, either because we don't like the name, or we don't
> like
> the result of the query, or we don't like some name server that would be
> involved in resolving it. the dns content i don't want to be visible on m=
y
> network, have to not be visible on my network.
>
> from the days before dhcp when we typed these numbers in by hand, until
> now,
> it has always been the expectation that rdns was part-and-parcel of local
> network service. no different in that regard from dhcp or arp, neither of
> which is standardized under the heading, "control plane", yet, are.
>
> so i think i'm not going to follow you down this terminological rabbit
> hole.
> the reason that internet creations of yours will work better on my networ=
k
> if
> you treat the rdns as part of my control plane is, because it's my networ=
k
> and
> that's how i operate it. you're not welcome to bypass it, nor answer dhcp
> requests when you're not my dhcp server, nor answer arp requests when you
> aren't the device i assigned that address to.
>
> you can call that tautological if you wish. but it's the life my networks
> lead. external DoH providers are explicitly not welcome to provide servic=
e
> to
> malware or intruders who get into my network -- because rdns is part of m=
y
> control plane, and like arp and dhcp, i control it and i monitor it, for
> $reasons.
>
> > The problem with the discussion we=E2=80=99ve been having about DoH and=
 how it
> > affects your =E2=80=9CRDNS control plane=E2=80=9D is that we=E2=80=99re=
 talking past each other,
> > not that the discussion should be had elsewhere.   It=E2=80=99s fine fo=
r there to
> > be a discussion, but if there is going to be a discussion, participants
> > need to engage constructively, and not just fling slogans at each other=
.
>
> i think i've flung considerably more than slogans, and, it's been
> exhausting.
>
> vixie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Paul, I&#39;m trying to understand your scenario.<div><br>=
</div><div>If you ran your own DoH server in your network (doing RDNS or wh=
atnot), and the DoH server is distributed to clients via DHCP=C2=A0+ a prot=
ocol upgrade mechanism, would that address the concerns you are listing?</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Vinicius Fortuna</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 1:33 A=
M Paul Vixie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul@redbarn.org">paul@redbarn.org</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Thu=
rsday, 14 March 2019 00:48:53 UTC Ted Lemon wrote:<br>
&gt; On Mar 12, 2019, at 2:52 PM, Paul Vixie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul@red=
barn.org" target=3D"_blank">paul@redbarn.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; please do not relegate discussions about the loss of operator con=
trol over<br>
&gt; &gt; the RDNS control plane<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Although it=E2=80=99s certainly true that DNS is used as a control pla=
ne by many<br>
&gt; operators, there is no standard =E2=80=9CRDNS control plane.=E2=80=9D=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0...<br>
<br>
i don&#39;t think lack of standardization is the same as not existing. devi=
ces <br>
which honour the dhcp-assigned rdns service, work as expected, and as <br>
intended. devices who ignore that setting and seek their own rdns by their =
own <br>
internal configuration, will often not work at all.<br>
<br>
because many of us amend our locally visible dns namespace with things like=
 <br>
.corp or .home or .local, it&#39;s even more vital that devices respect the=
 rdns <br>
assignment i make. the dns content i want to be visible on my network, have=
 to <br>
be visible on my network.<br>
<br>
because many of us won&#39;t allow pirate or malware or otherwise undesired=
 DNS <br>
lookups to succeed, either because we don&#39;t like the name, or we don&#3=
9;t like <br>
the result of the query, or we don&#39;t like some name server that would b=
e <br>
involved in resolving it. the dns content i don&#39;t want to be visible on=
 my <br>
network, have to not be visible on my network.<br>
<br>
from the days before dhcp when we typed these numbers in by hand, until now=
, <br>
it has always been the expectation that rdns was part-and-parcel of local <=
br>
network service. no different in that regard from dhcp or arp, neither of <=
br>
which is standardized under the heading, &quot;control plane&quot;, yet, ar=
e.<br>
<br>
so i think i&#39;m not going to follow you down this terminological rabbit =
hole. <br>
the reason that internet creations of yours will work better on my network =
if <br>
you treat the rdns as part of my control plane is, because it&#39;s my netw=
ork and <br>
that&#39;s how i operate it. you&#39;re not welcome to bypass it, nor answe=
r dhcp <br>
requests when you&#39;re not my dhcp server, nor answer arp requests when y=
ou <br>
aren&#39;t the device i assigned that address to.<br>
<br>
you can call that tautological if you wish. but it&#39;s the life my networ=
ks <br>
lead. external DoH providers are explicitly not welcome to provide service =
to <br>
malware or intruders who get into my network -- because rdns is part of my =
<br>
control plane, and like arp and dhcp, i control it and i monitor it, for <b=
r>
$reasons.<br>
<br>
&gt; The problem with the discussion we=E2=80=99ve been having about DoH an=
d how it<br>
&gt; affects your =E2=80=9CRDNS control plane=E2=80=9D is that we=E2=80=99r=
e talking past each other,<br>
&gt; not that the discussion should be had elsewhere.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It=E2=80=
=99s fine for there to<br>
&gt; be a discussion, but if there is going to be a discussion, participant=
s<br>
&gt; need to engage constructively, and not just fling slogans at each othe=
r.<br>
<br>
i think i&#39;ve flung considerably more than slogans, and, it&#39;s been e=
xhausting.<br>
<br>
vixie<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
hrpc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">hrpc@irtf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000006e760205841190d0--


From nobody Thu Mar 14 12:51:07 2019
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From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
To: dnsop@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org
Cc: doh@ietf.org
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 19:50:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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i've removed "dns-privacy@ietf.org" from the CC headers, at the WG chair's 
request. note, the main topic of this message is DNS privacy's implications.

On Thursday, 14 March 2019 17:50:44 UTC Vinicius Fortuna [vee-NEE-see.oos] 
wrote:
> Paul, I'm trying to understand your scenario.
> 
> If you ran your own DoH server in your network (doing RDNS or whatnot), and
> the DoH server is distributed to clients via DHCP + a protocol upgrade
> mechanism, would that address the concerns you are listing?
> 
> Vinicius Fortuna

no. the new risk intended by DoH comes from its expected ubiquity. two of its 
design assumptions are wrong.

one wrong assumption is that all users and apps operating inside my network 
deserve rdns service from third parties that is invisible to me (as network 
operator) and which is therefore subject to neither my surveillance nor my 
control. it turns out that some users are intruders and some apps are malware, 
and i do not want them to have the capability of invisible third party rdns. 

the second wrong assumption is that all on-path interferers have ill intent 
and do not deserve to surveil or control their network's rdns. as a parent, my 
interest in monitoring and control of the control plane used by my family, 
including rdns, is not a matter to be litigated against IETF consensus. the 
same thing happens at a larger scale in my corporate network.

so, no DoH service i can add would have any impact on the intended risks of 
DoH. i may offer it anyway, for clients who can't use DoT. but for my actual 
purposes both a user of networks and an operator of networks, DoT is both 
sufficient and better.

my costs to mitigate the risks intended by DoH will in some cases be cheap, 
like enumerating the so-called "public DNS" providers who offer it, and 
blocking them at my IP firewall.

DoH risk mitigation costs will be much higher for me when DoH is offered by an 
IP that i have other business with, for example if i need access to a google 
API or service, and the same IP also offers DoH. there, i'll have to run a tls 
proxy, and break any client who tries to use outbound TCP/443 directly.

many people here have mistakenly asserted that i had that risk anyway, and 
that this mitigation cost should already be on my ledger. this is mistaken for 
two reasons, both of which owe to security economics.

first, because some of my networks have an outbound TCP/443 whitelist which 
may have included IP addresses i previously thought i could trust not to offer 
invisible third party rdns to intruders or malware (or children) on my 
network.

second, because some of my networks only close the barn door after badness has 
passed through -- that is, the IP blacklist is amended after a detection 
event, since whitelisting wasn't feasible. defense that only works in the 
future is still quite a bit better than defense that will not work in the 
future. DoH, by intending to be invisible inside flows i already accept, will 
raise my defense costs, forever.

so, the costs of proxying TCP/443 to well known IP addresses was not already 
on my ledger, but must be now, and will have far-reaching effects.

not all agents (users and apps) inside my network are friendly and trusted, 
nor can they be expected to use DoH only when MDM tells them it is ok.

not all network operators who monitor or control their rdns are unfriendly or 
untrustworthy.

DoH is intended to be, and is, a security economics disaster for edge network 
operators.

vixie



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 21:10:00 +0100 (CET)
From: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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> Il 14 marzo 2019 alle 15.53 Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> ha scritto:
> 
> Hiya,
> On 14/03/2019 14:41, Ralf Weber wrote:
> > the DoH protocol caused some application providers to experiment with
> > switching resolution per default away from OS and the local network provider
>
> I wasn't aware that some application provider was doing this
> as their default (assuming that's what "per default" means).
> Can you provide details?
>
> I am aware of what FF/CF have done but I don't believe that
> was on by default.

What caused all this fuss is that they did not turn it on by default, but they publicly said they "would like" to do it in the future, here (at the end, "what is the status"):

https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/05/a-cartoon-intro-to-dns-over-https/

and also here, more or less at half the text, they say "Firefox does not *yet* use DoH by default" (asterisks are mine):

https://blog.nightly.mozilla.org/2018/06/01/improving-dns-privacy-in-firefox/

Mozilla also had several calls with concerned parties in which they were asked to clarify, and they confirmed that while they are considering all the feedback, this is still in their plans for the future.

So we are not all having hallucinations here :-) and even if Mozilla decided to announce that their plans are changed and that idea is now off the table, which has not happened yet, now everyone is aware that this could be done by any application at any time in the future; so, speaking from a policy perspective, it would be nice to agree (if possible) that that is a bad idea, at least if certain conditions are not met, and record that consensus somewhere. It would not prevent anyone from doing something else if they want, but that's true of any standard; but it would at least provide some guidance for well behaved application makers.

Regards,
-- 
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


From nobody Fri Mar 15 14:15:39 2019
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From: farzaneh badii <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 17:15:07 -0400
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Hi all,

Here is a link to the draft Bradley and I have created:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F25bxpxsslbbXjUAB2YnNEqupROTHrX-/view

The document did not end up being an ID, we are planning to submit it as an
ID in the future but we will base our discussion during HRPC session in
Prague at the above link.

Best
Farzaneh


On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 1:29 PM farzaneh badii <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Bradley Fidler (Asst Professor, Stevens Institute of Technology,
> www.brfidler.com) <https://www.brfidler.com/>and I are submitting an
> Internet-Draft which we would like to present during the HRPC session in
> Prague. We appreciate it if this ID could be considered to be added to th=
e
> agenda. We will both be present for the session. We want to contribute to
> achieving the outputs of this group in general and more specifically come
> up with methods for: Protocol analysis. Data analysis and visualization o=
f
> (existing) protocols in the wild to research their concrete impact on hum=
an
> rights.
>
>
> Here is a tentative abstract which we are developing the ID based on. Our
> draft will contribute to methods for protocol analysis.
> Abstract
>
>
> We propose a tentative research agenda for considering political values i=
n
> Internet protocol design. The agenda diverges from other Internet-Drafts =
on
> the issue of Political Values and human rights consideration in that it
> does not propose to consider human rights values during the process of
> developing protocols. This document argues that while it is not possible =
to
> =E2=80=98encode=E2=80=99 human rights in technical systems such that thos=
e values are
> maintained in any social context, there are still productive ways forward
> for organizations interested in considering the consequences of Internet
> protocols on human rights.
>
> Regards,
>
> Farzaneh
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 11:53 AM <avri@doria.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Thanks for pinging on the agenda.
>>
>> I have been thinking about the agenda.  Waiting to see what drafts are
>> submitted.
>>
>> Folks, what drafts, other than hrpc-association, should we expect to
>> come in? Anyone have a relevant paper they wish to discuss? I know of a
>> few other maybes, but not sure what will actually be submitted.
>>
>> On hrpc-association, since there has been a discussion of what is next
>> for it, wondering if we have some members who would like to review it
>> and speak to it and its readiness at the meeting.
>>
>> Among other things on the agenda, I expect we will have a discussion on
>> some recent events, including the situation with IETF id reviews.
>>
>> Are there other topics people think need to be on the agenda?
>>
>> Niels, what topic are you suggesting they speak about? Any papers we can
>> reference on their work?
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> avri
>>
>>
>> On 20-Feb-19 10:36, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>> > Dear co-chairs,
>> >
>> > Are you planning to have a guest-talk at the hrpc session at IETF104?
>> >
>> > If so, I think it would be very interested to hear of Paul Dourish or
>> > Fenwick McKelvey!
>> >
>> > Happy to help make connections if that's useful.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Niels
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > hrpc mailing list
>> > hrpc@irtf.org
>> > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> hrpc mailing list
>> hrpc@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>>
>

--00000000000010b4770584288a44
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:verdana,sans-serif">Hi all,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Here is a link to the draft Bradl=
ey and I have created:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F25=
bxpxsslbbXjUAB2YnNEqupROTHrX-/view">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F25bxp=
xsslbbXjUAB2YnNEqupROTHrX-/view</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">The document=C2=A0did not end up b=
eing an ID, we are planning to submit it as an ID in the future but we will=
 base our discussion during HRPC session in Prague at the above link.</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">=
Best=C2=A0</div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">Farzaneh </font></div></div><=
/div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 1:29 PM farzaneh badii &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:farzaneh.badii@gmail.com">farzaneh.badii@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"g=
mail_default"><span id=3D"gmail-m_6864906345963682222gmail-docs-internal-gu=
id-bd75deea-7fff-025f-081f-9725c49a2912"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sa=
ns-serif"><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bot=
tom:0pt;text-align:justify"><b style=3D"font-weight:normal" id=3D"gmail-m_6=
864906345963682222gmail-docs-internal-guid-7f307728-7fff-3cfc-8112-655a815f=
6c41"><br></b></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;ma=
rgin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);backgro=
und-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal=
;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Bradley=
 Fidler (Asst Professor, Stevens Institute of Technology, </span><a href=3D=
"http://www.brfidler.com" style=3D"text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);background-color:transparent;font-weigh=
t:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:underline;verti=
cal-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">www.brfidler.com</span></a><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-=
style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseli=
ne;white-space:pre-wrap">)</span><a href=3D"https://www.brfidler.com/" styl=
e=3D"text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap=
"> </span></a><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;=
font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;=
vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">and I are submitting an Inter=
net-Draft which we would like to present during the HRPC session in Prague.=
 We appreciate it if this ID could be considered to be added to the agenda.=
 We will both be present for the session. We want to contribute to achievin=
g the outputs of this group in general and more specifically come up with m=
ethods for: Protocol analysis. Data analysis and visualization of (existing=
) protocols in the wild to research their concrete impact on human rights.<=
/span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bot=
tom:0pt;text-align:justify"><b style=3D"font-weight:normal"><br></b></p><p =
dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-=
align:justify"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent=
;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none=
;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Here is a tentative abstract=
 which we are developing the ID based on. Our draft will contribute to meth=
ods for protocol analysis.</span></p><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><span id=3D"gmail-m_686490634596368=
2222gmail-docs-internal-guid-bd75deea-7fff-025f-081f-9725c49a2912"><font fa=
ce=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><h1 dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.=
2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-v=
ariant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><fon=
t size=3D"2">Abstract</font></span></h1><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height=
:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><br></p><h1 dir=
=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-ali=
gn:justify"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;fo=
nt-weight:400;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;ve=
rtical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><font size=3D"2">We propose a t=
entative research agenda for considering political values in Internet proto=
col design. The agenda diverges from other Internet-Drafts on the issue of =
Political Values and human rights consideration in that it does not propose=
 to consider human rights values during the process of developing protocols=
. This document argues that while it is not possible to =E2=80=98encode=E2=
=80=99 human rights in technical systems such that those values are maintai=
ned in any social context, there are still productive ways forward for orga=
nizations interested in considering the consequences of Internet protocols =
on human rights.</font></span></h1></font></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font face=3D"ari=
al, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font face=3D"arial, helveti=
ca, sans-serif">Regards,</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, san=
s-serif"><br></font></div><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.2;margin-to=
p:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east=
-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"></span></p><div=
 style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail-m_6864906345963682222gmail-m_641668911019124205gmail_signature"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Farzaneh</fon=
t></div></div></div></div><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.2;margin-to=
p:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><b style=3D"font-weight:normal"=
><br><br></b></p><h1 dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;ma=
rgin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><br></h1></font></span></div><br></div>=
</div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 11:53 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:avri@dor=
ia.org" target=3D"_blank">avri@doria.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi<br>
<br>
Thanks for pinging on the agenda.<br>
<br>
I have been thinking about the agenda.=C2=A0 Waiting to see what drafts are=
<br>
submitted.<br>
<br>
Folks, what drafts, other than hrpc-association, should we expect to<br>
come in? Anyone have a relevant paper they wish to discuss? I know of a<br>
few other maybes, but not sure what will actually be submitted.<br>
<br>
On hrpc-association, since there has been a discussion of what is next<br>
for it, wondering if we have some members who would like to review it<br>
and speak to it and its readiness at the meeting.<br>
<br>
Among other things on the agenda, I expect we will have a discussion on<br>
some recent events, including the situation with IETF id reviews.<br>
<br>
Are there other topics people think need to be on the agenda?<br>
<br>
Niels, what topic are you suggesting they speak about? Any papers we can<br=
>
reference on their work?<br>
<br>
thanks<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<br>
On 20-Feb-19 10:36, Niels ten Oever wrote:<br>
&gt; Dear co-chairs,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Are you planning to have a guest-talk at the hrpc session at IETF104?<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If so, I think it would be very interested to hear of Paul Dourish or<=
br>
&gt; Fenwick McKelvey!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Happy to help make connections if that&#39;s useful.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Best,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Niels<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; hrpc mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">hrpc@irtf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
hrpc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">hrpc@irtf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000010b4770584288a44--


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Hi,

Otherwise, Marit Hansen from Schleswig-Holstein (Germany) who was a
co-author of RFC6973?

She is somewhat close to the venue also.

Or JC de Martin from Torino who runs Nexa? See
https://nexa.polito.it/publications Maybe he has time to present ethical
data labels, and we can have a round of questions on potential
applicability in network analytics?

best regards,

Amelia

On 2019-03-15 22:15, farzaneh badii wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Here is a link to the draft Bradley and I have
> created:=C2=A0https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F25bxpxsslbbXjUAB2YnNEqu=
pROTHrX-/view
>
> The document=C2=A0did not end up being an ID, we are planning to submit=
 it
> as an ID in the future but we will base our discussion during HRPC
> session in Prague at the above link.
>
> Best=C2=A0
> Farzaneh
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 1:29 PM farzaneh badii
> <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com <mailto:farzaneh.badii@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     *
>     *
>
>     Bradley Fidler (Asst Professor, Stevens Institute of Technology,
>     www.brfidler.com
>     <http://www.brfidler.com>)<https://www.brfidler.com/>and I are
>     submitting an Internet-Draft which we would like to present during
>     the HRPC session in Prague. We appreciate it if this ID could be
>     considered to be added to the agenda. We will both be present for
>     the session. We want to contribute to achieving the outputs of
>     this group in general and more specifically come up with methods
>     for: Protocol analysis. Data analysis and visualization of
>     (existing) protocols in the wild to research their concrete impact
>     on human rights.
>
>     *
>     *
>
>     Here is a tentative abstract which we are developing the ID based
>     on. Our draft will contribute to methods for protocol analysis.
>
>
>       Abstract
>
>
>       We propose a tentative research agenda for considering political
>       values in Internet protocol design. The agenda diverges from
>       other Internet-Drafts on the issue of Political Values and human
>       rights consideration in that it does not propose to consider
>       human rights values during the process of developing protocols..
>       This document argues that while it is not possible to =E2=80=98en=
code=E2=80=99
>       human rights in technical systems such that those values are
>       maintained in any social context, there are still productive
>       ways forward for organizations interested in considering the
>       consequences of Internet protocols on human rights.
>
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Farzaneh
>
>     *
>
>     *
>
>
>
>
>
>     On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 11:53 AM <avri@doria.org
>     <mailto:avri@doria.org>> wrote:
>
>         Hi
>
>         Thanks for pinging on the agenda.
>
>         I have been thinking about the agenda.=C2=A0 Waiting to see wha=
t
>         drafts are
>         submitted.
>
>         Folks, what drafts, other than hrpc-association, should we
>         expect to
>         come in? Anyone have a relevant paper they wish to discuss? I
>         know of a
>         few other maybes, but not sure what will actually be submitted.
>
>         On hrpc-association, since there has been a discussion of what
>         is next
>         for it, wondering if we have some members who would like to
>         review it
>         and speak to it and its readiness at the meeting.
>
>         Among other things on the agenda, I expect we will have a
>         discussion on
>         some recent events, including the situation with IETF id review=
s.
>
>         Are there other topics people think need to be on the agenda?
>
>         Niels, what topic are you suggesting they speak about? Any
>         papers we can
>         reference on their work?
>
>         thanks
>
>         avri
>
>
>         On 20-Feb-19 10:36, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>         > Dear co-chairs,
>         >
>         > Are you planning to have a guest-talk at the hrpc session at
>         IETF104?
>         >
>         > If so, I think it would be very interested to hear of Paul
>         Dourish or
>         > Fenwick McKelvey!
>         >
>         > Happy to help make connections if that's useful.
>         >
>         > Best,
>         >
>         > Niels
>         >
>         > _______________________________________________
>         > hrpc mailing list
>         > hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>         > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         hrpc mailing list
>         hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>         https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


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References: <1dc7a925-d69c-41cc-99df-861593447031@nielstenoever.net> <fd61e2d9-c559-3a3c-dfd6-37ee545fc001@doria.org> <CAN1qJvBVF_D8A+qugfgrP2T-EsUwQUkosgqafpoUoqK=EA6S3w@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1qJvAYYFn9viT-CN294LO7LknU3xbOUcWMfMvX3ftJB5gLdw@mail.gmail.com> <69b88e54-47a3-9039-15af-67007f6fb3d6@article19.org>
From: Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Session at IETF104
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On 2019-03-15 22:29, Amelia Andersdotter wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Otherwise, Marit Hansen from Schleswig-Holstein (Germany) who was a
> co-author of RFC6973?
>
> She is somewhat close to the venue also.
>
> Or JC de Martin from Torino who runs Nexa? See
> https://nexa.polito.it/publications Maybe he has time to present ethica=
l
> data labels, and we can have a round of questions on potential
> applicability in network analytics?

ay, it's a bit late i guess, but there's also no particular hurry.

/a


> best regards,
>
> Amelia
>
> On 2019-03-15 22:15, farzaneh badii wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Here is a link to the draft Bradley and I have
>> created:=C2=A0https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F25bxpxsslbbXjUAB2YnNEq=
upROTHrX-/view
>>
>> The document=C2=A0did not end up being an ID, we are planning to submi=
t it
>> as an ID in the future but we will base our discussion during HRPC
>> session in Prague at the above link.
>>
>> Best=C2=A0
>> Farzaneh
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 1:29 PM farzaneh badii
>> <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com <mailto:farzaneh.badii@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     *
>>     *
>>
>>     Bradley Fidler (Asst Professor, Stevens Institute of Technology,
>>     www.brfidler.com
>>     <http://www.brfidler.com>)<https://www.brfidler.com/>and I are
>>     submitting an Internet-Draft which we would like to present during
>>     the HRPC session in Prague. We appreciate it if this ID could be
>>     considered to be added to the agenda. We will both be present for
>>     the session. We want to contribute to achieving the outputs of
>>     this group in general and more specifically come up with methods
>>     for: Protocol analysis. Data analysis and visualization of
>>     (existing) protocols in the wild to research their concrete impact
>>     on human rights.
>>
>>     *
>>     *
>>
>>     Here is a tentative abstract which we are developing the ID based
>>     on. Our draft will contribute to methods for protocol analysis.
>>
>>
>>       Abstract
>>
>>
>>       We propose a tentative research agenda for considering political
>>       values in Internet protocol design. The agenda diverges from
>>       other Internet-Drafts on the issue of Political Values and human
>>       rights consideration in that it does not propose to consider
>>       human rights values during the process of developing protocols..
>>       This document argues that while it is not possible to =E2=80=98e=
ncode=E2=80=99
>>       human rights in technical systems such that those values are
>>       maintained in any social context, there are still productive
>>       ways forward for organizations interested in considering the
>>       consequences of Internet protocols on human rights.
>>
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>     Farzaneh
>>
>>     *
>>
>>     *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 11:53 AM <avri@doria.org
>>     <mailto:avri@doria.org>> wrote:
>>
>>         Hi
>>
>>         Thanks for pinging on the agenda.
>>
>>         I have been thinking about the agenda.=C2=A0 Waiting to see wh=
at
>>         drafts are
>>         submitted.
>>
>>         Folks, what drafts, other than hrpc-association, should we
>>         expect to
>>         come in? Anyone have a relevant paper they wish to discuss? I
>>         know of a
>>         few other maybes, but not sure what will actually be submitted=
.
>>
>>         On hrpc-association, since there has been a discussion of what
>>         is next
>>         for it, wondering if we have some members who would like to
>>         review it
>>         and speak to it and its readiness at the meeting.
>>
>>         Among other things on the agenda, I expect we will have a
>>         discussion on
>>         some recent events, including the situation with IETF id revie=
ws.
>>
>>         Are there other topics people think need to be on the agenda?
>>
>>         Niels, what topic are you suggesting they speak about? Any
>>         papers we can
>>         reference on their work?
>>
>>         thanks
>>
>>         avri
>>
>>
>>         On 20-Feb-19 10:36, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>>         > Dear co-chairs,
>>         >
>>         > Are you planning to have a guest-talk at the hrpc session at
>>         IETF104?
>>         >
>>         > If so, I think it would be very interested to hear of Paul
>>         Dourish or
>>         > Fenwick McKelvey!
>>         >
>>         > Happy to help make connections if that's useful.
>>         >
>>         > Best,
>>         >
>>         > Niels
>>         >
>>         > _______________________________________________
>>         > hrpc mailing list
>>         > hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>>         > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         hrpc mailing list
>>         hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>>         https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> hrpc mailing list
>> hrpc@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>

--=20
Amelia Andersdotter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.article19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55


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From: Gurshabad Grover <gurshabad@cis-india.org>
To: hrpc@irtf.org
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 12:30:05 +0530
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt
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On 11/03/19 5:16 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire=
ctories.
> This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations R=
G of the IRTF.

(Thanks to the chairs for scheduling time to discuss this draft at IETF10=
4.)

Niels and I have updated draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines with mostly
editorial changes for now. Will appreciate any feedback on how to
improve the draft.

A note: HR-RT has reviewed not only communication protocols but problem
statements, solution architectures, etc. At the same time, a variety of
IDs in the IETF are including a 'Human Rights Considerations' section
(draft-reid-doh-operator has one, draft-bertola-bcp doh-clients plans to
have one, and RFC8492 also has one for what it's worth).

Should we expand the scope of this draft to clearly include
considerations more broadly rather than just restricted to communication
protocols? (The updated title of the draft currently reads "Guidelines
for Human Rights Protocol and Architecture Considerations")

Looking forward to your feedback and suggestions on the list and at the
meeting!

Thank you.
Gurshabad

>=20
>         Title           : Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol and Arch=
itecture Considerations
>         Authors         : Niels ten Oever
>                           Gurshabad Grover
> 	Filename        : draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt
> 	Pages           : 27
> 	Date            : 2019-03-11
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document sets guidelines for human rights considerations in
>    networking protocols, similar to the work done on the guidelines for
>    privacy considerations [RFC6973].  This is an updated version of the
>    guidelines for human rights considerations in [RFC8280].
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
>=20
>=20


From nobody Tue Mar 19 00:42:55 2019
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Review of draft-irtf-hrpc-political-01
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From: Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>
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Subject: Re: Review of draft-irtf-hrpc-political-01
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Hi Michael,

I want to echo Niels in saying that this thorough review is both
unexpected and very welcome! I'm looking forward to the next version
after incorporating this feedback.

-Mallory

On 07/03/2019 15:17, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> Dear Michael,
>=20
> Thanks a lot for this very thorough and detailed review! This is much
> more than we could have wished for. Please allow me some time to
> address your comments and suggestions.
>=20
> Best,
>=20
> Niels
>=20
> On 3/6/19 5:53 PM, Michael Rogers wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> Neils and Mallory asked me to review the current draft of "Notes
>> on networking standards and politics".
>>=20
>> I'm afraid I went a bit overboard and recommended that it should
>> be rewritten as a musical about a plucky kid lost in the big city
>> and her scruffy dog sidekick, so please take my comments with
>> plenty of salt.
>>=20
>> The review's attached, along with a diff against the markdown
>> source containing some minor edits to spelling, punctuation and
>> wording.
>>=20
>> Cheers, Michael
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20
>> hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20
> hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>=20


--=20
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
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--000000000000b32de705846dbcb6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

FYI - I am sure people have already seen this but sharing regardless.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 9:59 PM
Subject: Finding the appropriate work stream for
draft-nottingham-for-the-users
To: IETF <ietf@ietf.org>


Greetings,

The IAB is considering adopting this document onto the IAB stream as
Informational:

https://datatracker..ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-users/
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-users/>

with a focus on explaining why decisions in the IETF often are or should
be  user-focused.

However, in discussion some felt that there might be interest in adopting
this document into the IETF stream as a BCP (most likely in the General
Area), with a stronger focus on setting guidelines for working groups when
they face these sorts of issues.

The IAB is seeking input from the community about the level of interest (or
disinterest) in the latter approach. Please do so on this list, by sending
mail to architecture-discuss@iab.org (our public discussion list) or to
iab@iab..org <iab@iab.org> (to reach just the IAB). You can also discuss
with individual IAB members in Prague.

Thanks,

Ted Hardie
for the IAB


-- 
Corinne Cath - Speth
Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute

Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath
Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnecath@gmail.com
Twitter: @C_Cath

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,=
sans-serif">FYI - I am sure people have already seen this but sharing regar=
dless.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <strong class=
=3D"gmail_sendername" dir=3D"auto">Ted Hardie</strong> <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com">ted.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><b=
r>Date: Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 9:59 PM<br>Subject: Finding the appropriate wo=
rk stream for draft-nottingham-for-the-users<br>To: IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:ietf@ietf.org">ietf@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div>Greetings,</div><div><br></div><div>The IAB is considering adopting th=
is document onto the IAB stream as Informational:</div><div><br></div><div>=
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-users/=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker..ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-nottingham-for-the-users/</a></div><div><br></div><div>with a focus on =
explaining why decisions in the IETF often are or should be=C2=A0 user-focu=
sed.</div><div><br></div><div>However, in discussion some felt that there m=
ight be interest in adopting this document into the IETF stream as a BCP (m=
ost likely in the General Area), with a stronger focus on setting guideline=
s for working groups when they face these sorts of issues. <br>
<br>The IAB is seeking input from the community about the level of interest=
 (or disinterest) in the latter approach. Please do so on this list, by sen=
ding mail to <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,=
0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-vari=
ant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wra=
p" id=3D"m_-2540966263586754909gmail-docs-internal-guid-3bcf9d52-7fff-e911-=
fbbf-0af945a6d64d"><a href=3D"mailto:architecture-discuss@iab.org" target=
=3D"_blank">architecture-discuss@iab.org</a> (our public discussion list) o=
r to <a href=3D"mailto:iab@iab.org" target=3D"_blank">iab@iab..org</a> (to =
reach just the IAB).  You can also discuss with individual IAB members in P=
rague.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap" id=3D"m_-2540966263586754909gmail-docs-internal-guid-3bcf9d52=
-7fff-e911-fbbf-0af945a6d64d"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font=
-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vert=
ical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" id=3D"m_-2540966263586754909gmail=
-docs-internal-guid-3bcf9d52-7fff-e911-fbbf-0af945a6d64d">Thanks,</span></d=
iv><div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);ba=
ckground-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:n=
ormal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" id=
=3D"m_-2540966263586754909gmail-docs-internal-guid-3bcf9d52-7fff-e911-fbbf-=
0af945a6d64d"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font=
-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:basel=
ine;white-space:pre-wrap" id=3D"m_-2540966263586754909gmail-docs-internal-g=
uid-3bcf9d52-7fff-e911-fbbf-0af945a6d64d">Ted Hardie</span></div><div><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-colo=
r:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-de=
coration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap" id=3D"m_-254096=
6263586754909gmail-docs-internal-guid-3bcf9d52-7fff-e911-fbbf-0af945a6d64d"=
>for the IAB<br></span></div></div>
</div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-family:=
verdana,sans-serif">Corinne Cath - Speth<br>Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Interne=
t Institute &amp; Alan Turing Institute <br><br><span style=3D"color:rgb(68=
,68,68)">Web: <a href=3D"http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath" targe=
t=3D"_blank">www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath</a> <br>Email: <a href=3D=
"mailto:ccath@turing.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">ccath@turing.ac.uk</a> &amp; =
<a href=3D"mailto:corinnecath@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">corinnecath@gmai=
l.com</a><br>Twitter: @C_Cath</span><br></span></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--000000000000b32de705846dbcb6--


From nobody Tue Mar 19 00:51:30 2019
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Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, irtf-chair@irtf.org
References: <155147461831.6101.12073558912786552450.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>
From: Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] hrpc - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 104
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Hi folks,

Since last week we have had a full agenda up:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-104-hrpc

Please if you are on the agenda can you send me your slides in the next
seven days.

Thank you kindly!
-Mallory

On 02/03/2019 00:10, "IETF Secretariat" wrote:
> Dear Mallory Knodel,
> 
> The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
> Below is the scheduled session information followed by
> the original request. 
> 
> 
>     hrpc Session 1 (2:00 requested)
>     Thursday, 28 March 2019, Afternoon Session II 1610-1810
>     Room Name: Berlin/Brussels size: 100
>     ---------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/sessions/hrpc.ics
> 
> Request Information:
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Working Group Name: Human Rights Protocol Considerations
> Area Name: IRTF
> Session Requester: Mallory Knodel
> 
> Number of Sessions: 1
> Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
> Number of Attendees: 100
> Conflicts to Avoid: 
>  First Priority: dnsop gaia irtfopen
>  Second Priority: mls capport regext
>  Third Priority: dprive doh
> 
> 
> People who must be present:
>   Avri Doria
>   Mallory Knodel
> 
> Resources Requested:
> 
> Special Requests:
>   
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 


-- 
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 12:50:56 +0000
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To: Gurshabad Grover <gurshabad=40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt
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Quick nit:

Section 3.2 says: "Currently three five methods have been explored by the
Human Rights Review Team, often in conjunction with each other: "

I guess that should be five methods?

Best,

On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 7:00 AM Gurshabad Grover <gurshabad=
40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> On 11/03/19 5:16 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations RG
> of the IRTF.
>
> (Thanks to the chairs for scheduling time to discuss this draft at
> IETF104.)
>
> Niels and I have updated draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines with mostly
> editorial changes for now. Will appreciate any feedback on how to
> improve the draft.
>
> A note: HR-RT has reviewed not only communication protocols but problem
> statements, solution architectures, etc. At the same time, a variety of
> IDs in the IETF are including a 'Human Rights Considerations' section
> (draft-reid-doh-operator has one, draft-bertola-bcp doh-clients plans to
> have one, and RFC8492 also has one for what it's worth).
>
> Should we expand the scope of this draft to clearly include
> considerations more broadly rather than just restricted to communication
> protocols? (The updated title of the draft currently reads "Guidelines
> for Human Rights Protocol and Architecture Considerations")
>
> Looking forward to your feedback and suggestions on the list and at the
> meeting!
>
> Thank you.
> Gurshabad
>
> >
> >         Title           : Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol and
> Architecture Considerations
> >         Authors         : Niels ten Oever
> >                           Gurshabad Grover
> >       Filename        : draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt
> >       Pages           : 27
> >       Date            : 2019-03-11
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    This document sets guidelines for human rights considerations in
> >    networking protocols, similar to the work done on the guidelines for
> >    privacy considerations [RFC6973].  This is an updated version of the
> >    guidelines for human rights considerations in [RFC8280].
> >
> >
> > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines/
> >
> > There are also htmlized versions available at:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
> >
> > A diff from the previous version is available at:
> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>


-- 
Corinne Cath - Speth
Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute

Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath
Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnecath@gmail.com
Twitter: @C_Cath

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D""><=
font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">Quick nit:</font></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D""><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D""><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif" s=
tyle=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Section 3.2 says: &quot;<span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(232,231,227)">Currently three five methods have been=C2=A0=
</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(232,231,227)">explored by the Human Rights =
Review Team, often in conjunction with=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(232,231,227)">each other:</span><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"col=
or:rgb(232,231,227)"> &quot; </span></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D""><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(232,231,227)=
"><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></span></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D""><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(=
232,231,227)"><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">I guess that should be fiv=
e methods?</font></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D""><span=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(232,231,227)"><font face=3D"ver=
dana, sans-serif"><br></font></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D""><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(232,231,227)"><font=
 face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">Best,</font></span></div></div><font face=3D"=
verdana, sans-serif"><br></font><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr"><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">On Tue, Mar 19, 20=
19 at 7:00 AM Gurshabad Grover &lt;gurshabad=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cis-indi=
a.org@dmarc.ietf.org">40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></fo=
nt></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face=3D"ve=
rdana, sans-serif">On 11/03/19 5:16 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote:<br>&gt; <br>=
&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir=
ectories.<br>&gt; This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Co=
nsiderations RG of the IRTF.<br>
<br>(Thanks to the chairs for scheduling time to discuss this draft at IETF=
104.)<br>
<br>Niels and I have updated draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines with mostly<br>edit=
orial changes for now. Will appreciate any feedback on how to<br>improve th=
e draft.<br>
<br>A note: HR-RT has reviewed not only communication protocols but problem=
<br>statements, solution architectures, etc. At the same time, a variety of=
<br>IDs in the IETF are including a &#39;Human Rights Considerations&#39; s=
ection<br>(draft-reid-doh-operator has one, draft-bertola-bcp doh-clients p=
lans to<br>have one, and RFC8492 also has one for what it&#39;s worth).<br>
<br>Should we expand the scope of this draft to clearly include<br>consider=
ations more broadly rather than just restricted to communication<br>protoco=
ls? (The updated title of the draft currently reads &quot;Guidelines<br>for=
 Human Rights Protocol and Architecture Considerations&quot;)<br>
<br>Looking forward to your feedback and suggestions on the list and at the=
<br>meeting!<br>
<br>Thank you.<br>Gurshabad<br>
<br>&gt; <br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol and Architec=
ture Considerations<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Niels ten Oever<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Gurshabad Grover<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: 27<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 2019-03=
-11<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Abstract:<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document sets guid=
elines for human rights considerations in<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 networking p=
rotocols, similar to the work done on the guidelines for<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 privacy considerations [RFC6973].=C2=A0 This is an updated version of t=
he<br>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 guidelines for human rights considerations in [RFC8=
280].<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this d=
raft is:<br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrp=
c-guidelines/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines/</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; There are also h=
tmlized versions available at:<br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02</a><br>&gt; <a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dr=
aft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; A diff from the previous v=
ersion is available at:<br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url=
2=3Ddraft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02</a><br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; <br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>hrpc mailing list<br=
>
<a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">hrpc@irtf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc</a><br>
</font></blockquote></div><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif"><br clear=3D"a=
ll"></font><div><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div><font f=
ace=3D"verdana, sans-serif">-- <br></font><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_s=
ignature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">Corinne Cath - Speth<br>Ph.D. C=
andidate, Oxford Internet Institute &amp; Alan Turing Institute <br><br><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(68,68,68)">Web: <a href=3D"http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/pe=
ople/corinne-cath" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"">www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/cor=
inne-cath</a> <br>Email: <a href=3D"mailto:ccath@turing.ac.uk" target=3D"_b=
lank" style=3D"">ccath@turing.ac.uk</a> &amp; <a href=3D"mailto:corinnecath=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"">corinnecath@gmail.com</a><br>Twitt=
er: @C_Cath</span></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

--00000000000001e3d905846f7551--


From nobody Tue Mar 19 09:34:51 2019
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 17:34:44 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Gurshabad Grover <gurshabad=40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Message-ID: <20190319163444.usfcotj6fmfq4lsv@nic.fr>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt
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On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 12:30:05PM +0530,
 Gurshabad Grover <gurshabad=40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote 
 a message of 59 lines which said:

> At the same time, a variety of IDs in the IETF are including a
> 'Human Rights Considerations' section (draft-reid-doh-operator has
> one, draft-bertola-bcp doh-clients plans to have one, and RFC8492
> also has one for what it's worth).

In the draft-reid-doh-operator, the section is also questionable (the
draft is about giving more power to ISPs and less to the users). It
illustrates the fact that the application of the broad principles of
the UDHR to concrete IETF work is not obvious.



From nobody Wed Mar 20 00:30:47 2019
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 08:29:21 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: doh@ietf.org, dprive@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 05:58:13PM +0100,
 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote 
 a message of 19 lines which said:

> [Sorry for the long list of working groups but the discussion already
> started in different places.]
...
> It was suggested to have a side meeting in Prague at IETF 104. I
> propose monday, 1400-1600 in Tyrolka. The proposal is at
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>. You
> are welcome to agree/disagree/meet in a bar instead.

I modified the title of the meeting
<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings> because
there is obviously no consensus on the problem or on the
agenda. Anyway, a room is reserved if people want to meet on
wednesday.


From nobody Wed Mar 20 11:11:05 2019
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From: Juliana Guerra <juliana@derechosdigitales.org>
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 13:10:45 -0500
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Subject: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-guerra-feminism-00.txt
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Hello everyone, last week we submitted a draft on feminism and protocols
which can be of interest in this group. This is a very preliminary
approach, trying to recognize the differentiated effects of protocols on
users who are part of traditionally marginalized groups. With this
document we would like to draw attention to the need to join efforts in
order to build safer, more accessible and inclusive digital environments.

Your comments, questions and input will be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,

Juliana Guerra



Name:		draft-guerra-feminism
Revision:	00
Title:		Feminism and protocols
Document date:	2019-03-11
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		15
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-guerra-feminism-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-guerra-feminism/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guerra-feminism-00
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-guerra-feminism


Abstract:
   This document aims to describe how internet standrds and protocols
   and its implementations may impact diverse groups and communities.
   The research on how some protocol can be enabler for specific human
   rights while possibly restricting others has been documented in
   [RFC8280].  Similar to how RFC 8280 has taken a human rights lens
   through which to view engineering and design choices by internet
   standardisation, this document addreses the opportunities and
   vulnerabilities embedded within internet protocols for specific,
   traditionally maginalised groups.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 09:09:46 +0100 (CET)
From: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, doh@ietf.org, dprive@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [Doh] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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> Il 20 marzo 2019 alle 8.29 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> ha scritto:
> 
> I modified the title of the meeting
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings> because
> there is obviously no consensus on the problem or on the
> agenda. Anyway, a room is reserved if people want to meet on
> wednesday.

Given that this is not going to happen in the doh session on Tuesday, perhaps the meeting on Wednesday could start with the presentation of the three drafts. If the meeting on Tuesday gets to some preliminary ideas on work to do, we could then work out some plans among those that want to contribute.

Regards,
-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


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From: Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 13:09:33 +0100
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt
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On 3/19/19 1:50 PM, Corinne Cath wrote:
> Quick nit:
> 
> Section 3.2 says: "Currently three five methods have been explored by the Human Rights Review Team, often in conjunction with each other:"
> 
> I guess that should be five methods?

yes, thank you! changed it for the next version.

Cheers,

Niels

> 
> Best,
> 
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 7:00 AM Gurshabad Grover <gurshabad=40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> 
>     On 11/03/19 5:16 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>     >
>     > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>     > This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations RG of the IRTF.
> 
>     (Thanks to the chairs for scheduling time to discuss this draft at IETF104.)
> 
>     Niels and I have updated draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines with mostly
>     editorial changes for now. Will appreciate any feedback on how to
>     improve the draft.
> 
>     A note: HR-RT has reviewed not only communication protocols but problem
>     statements, solution architectures, etc. At the same time, a variety of
>     IDs in the IETF are including a 'Human Rights Considerations' section
>     (draft-reid-doh-operator has one, draft-bertola-bcp doh-clients plans to
>     have one, and RFC8492 also has one for what it's worth).
> 
>     Should we expand the scope of this draft to clearly include
>     considerations more broadly rather than just restricted to communication
>     protocols? (The updated title of the draft currently reads "Guidelines
>     for Human Rights Protocol and Architecture Considerations")
> 
>     Looking forward to your feedback and suggestions on the list and at the
>     meeting!
> 
>     Thank you.
>     Gurshabad
> 
>     >
>     >         Title           : Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol and Architecture Considerations
>     >         Authors         : Niels ten Oever
>     >                           Gurshabad Grover
>     >       Filename        : draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt
>     >       Pages           : 27
>     >       Date            : 2019-03-11
>     >
>     > Abstract:
>     >    This document sets guidelines for human rights considerations in
>     >    networking protocols, similar to the work done on the guidelines for
>     >    privacy considerations [RFC6973].  This is an updated version of the
>     >    guidelines for human rights considerations in [RFC8280].
>     >
>     >
>     > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>     > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines/
>     >
>     > There are also htmlized versions available at:
>     > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
>     > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
>     >
>     > A diff from the previous version is available at:
>     > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
>     >
>     >
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     hrpc mailing list
>     hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>     https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Corinne Cath - Speth
> Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute
> 
> Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath <http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath>
> Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk <mailto:ccath@turing.ac.uk> & corinnecath@gmail.com <mailto:corinnecath@gmail.com>
> Twitter: @C_Cath
> 
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
> 

-- 
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
DATACTIVE Research Group
University of Amsterdam

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From: "Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>
To: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, "doh@ietf.org" <doh@ietf.org>, "dprive@ietf.org" <dprive@ietf.org>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>, "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>
Thread-Topic: [DNSOP] [Doh] [hrpc] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] [DNSOP] [Doh] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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From nobody Thu Mar 21 21:52:51 2019
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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 21:45:15 -0700
To: Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19.org>, hrpc@irtf.org
From: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
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Subject: [hrpc] Comments on draft-irtf-hrpc-political-01
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Dear Niels, Amelia,

I have a comment about draft-irtf-hrpc-political-01.  The draft 
quotes RFC 613 and makes a statement about the design of the 
Internet.  There is an IAB statement (RFC 1087) about the Internet 
being a national facility.  How did this IRTF RG determine that its 
interpretation of "a complicated political and economic question with 
obvious technical overtones" is correct [1]?

The draft cites RFC 1097 and states that "Ethics and the Internet was 
already a topic of an RFC".  In my opinion, that RFC could be read as 
a chucklesome commentary.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. There was a request for comments about the network connectivity of 
the IMPs in several locations within a country.  The economic 
question might be about the cost of the circuits.


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From: Shivan <shivankaul.1993@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 13:09:08 +0100
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--0000000000002e1d2e058512504f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Juliana, Mallory,

Thanks for this. I took a quick look at it.

1.2 The title is "Intersectional feminism and diversity", so it reads a bit
funny for the leading rhetorical question "why feminism and not gender?" to
only concern itself with gender. Similarly for the rest of the para;
perhaps some examples of other marginalized categories might be useful?
Also there's a lot of commas in this para :)

1.3 Maybe add a reference to Feminist Principles here? In general the
Principles are mentioned quite a few times in the draft, so might be worth
thinking about the best way to discuss the Principles in one place and how
they relate to IETF work (or not).

1.4.2.  2.2. (?) mentions that the draft delves into how gender appears in
IETF documents, but I don't see that analysis anywhere (unless I'm missing
it?). Is that TBD?

The numbering on the whole in the draft got muddled up I think :) which
made the rest of the document hard to follow.

This is a "full" -00 draft, and it reads a bit rambly, which is fine. I
think it will be slightly easier to review once the structure/numbering is
sorted out!



On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 7:11 PM Juliana Guerra <
juliana@derechosdigitales.org> wrote:

> Hello everyone, last week we submitted a draft on feminism and protocols
> which can be of interest in this group. This is a very preliminary
> approach, trying to recognize the differentiated effects of protocols on
> users who are part of traditionally marginalized groups. With this
> document we would like to draw attention to the need to join efforts in
> order to build safer, more accessible and inclusive digital environments.
>
> Your comments, questions and input will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Juliana Guerra
>
>
>
> Name:           draft-guerra-feminism
> Revision:       00
> Title:          Feminism and protocols
> Document date:  2019-03-11
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          15
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-guerra-feminism-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-guerra-feminism/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guerra-feminism-00
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-guerra-feminism
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This document aims to describe how internet standrds and protocols
>    and its implementations may impact diverse groups and communities.
>    The research on how some protocol can be enabler for specific human
>    rights while possibly restricting others has been documented in
>    [RFC8280].  Similar to how RFC 8280 has taken a human rights lens
>    through which to view engineering and design choices by internet
>    standardisation, this document addreses the opportunities and
>    vulnerabilities embedded within internet protocols for specific,
>    traditionally maginalised groups.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>

--0000000000002e1d2e058512504f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-=
size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Hi Juliana, Mallory,=C2=A0</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,=
51)">Thanks for this. I took a quick look at it.</div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;col=
or:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">1.2 The =
title is &quot;Intersectional feminism and diversity&quot;, so it reads a b=
it funny for the leading rhetorical question &quot;why feminism and not gen=
der?&quot; to only concern itself with gender. Similarly for the rest of th=
e para; perhaps some examples of other marginalized categories might be use=
ful? Also there&#39;s a lot of commas in this para :)</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:smal=
l;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">1.3=
 Maybe add a reference to Feminist Principles here? In general the Principl=
es are mentioned quite a few times in the draft, so might be worth thinking=
 about the best way to discuss the Principles in one place and how they rel=
ate to IETF work (or not).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"arial, h=
elvetica, sans-serif">1.4.2.=C2=A0 2.2. (?) mentions that the draft delves =
into how gender appears in IETF documents, but I don&#39;t see that analysi=
s anywhere (unless I&#39;m missing it?). Is that TBD?</font><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,=
51,51)">The numbering on the whole in the draft got muddled up I think :) w=
hich made the rest of the document hard to follow.</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;c=
olor:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)">This i=
s a &quot;full&quot; -00 draft, and it reads a bit rambly, which is fine. I=
 think it will be slightly easier to review once the structure/numbering is=
 sorted out!</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><br></div></div></div></div></div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 20, =
2019 at 7:11 PM Juliana Guerra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:juliana@derechosdigita=
les.org" target=3D"_blank">juliana@derechosdigitales.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hello everyone, las=
t week we submitted a draft on feminism and protocols<br>
which can be of interest in this group. This is a very preliminary<br>
approach, trying to recognize the differentiated effects of protocols on<br=
>
users who are part of traditionally marginalized groups. With this<br>
document we would like to draw attention to the need to join efforts in<br>
order to build safer, more accessible and inclusive digital environments.<b=
r>
<br>
Your comments, questions and input will be greatly appreciated.<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
<br>
Juliana Guerra<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-guerra-feminism<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Feminism and protocols<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-03-11<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15<br>
URL:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-guerra-feminism-00.tx=
t" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-draft=
s/draft-guerra-feminism-00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-guerra-feminism/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-guerra-feminism/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-guerra-feminism-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-guerra-feminism-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-guerra-feminism" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-guerra-feminism</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document aims to describe how internet standrds and proto=
cols<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and its implementations may impact diverse groups and communit=
ies.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The research on how some protocol can be enabler for specific =
human<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0rights while possibly restricting others has been documented i=
n<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC8280].=C2=A0 Similar to how RFC 8280 has taken a human rig=
hts lens<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0through which to view engineering and design choices by intern=
et<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0standardisation, this document addreses the opportunities and<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0vulnerabilities embedded within internet protocols for specifi=
c,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0traditionally maginalised groups.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
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<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
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To: Shivan <shivankaul.1993@gmail.com>
Cc: Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>
References: <155234874929.23122.16588811023202800442.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <326b99c8-733d-f8f8-8d4d-f69e10586c32@derechosdigitales.org> <CAG3f7MgDcFdpp5SYSKus_vxAfb=j__xtT08VbC-PjjCvGT87nA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Juliana Guerra <juliana@derechosdigitales.org>
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Thanks Shivan for your comments. As you say it's a full 00 draft and all
what you metioned should be clarified. We'll have a few minutes to talk
about it tomorrow in HRPC session so I hope to explain better. For now,

On 27/03/19 7:09, Shivan wrote:
> Hi Juliana, Mallory,
> 
> Thanks for this. I took a quick look at it.
> 
> 1.2 The title is "Intersectional feminism and diversity", so it reads a bit
> funny for the leading rhetorical question "why feminism and not gender?" to
> only concern itself with gender. Similarly for the rest of the para;
> perhaps some examples of other marginalized categories might be useful?
> Also there's a lot of commas in this para :)

Agree. It seems to be necessary to give an explanation of some
terminology used. And the comas, thanks, writing english as if it were
spanish :P

> 
> 1.3 Maybe add a reference to Feminist Principles here? In general the
> Principles are mentioned quite a few times in the draft, so might be worth
> thinking about the best way to discuss the Principles in one place and how
> they relate to IETF work (or not).

Yes!
> 
> 1.4.2.  2.2. (?) mentions that the draft delves into how gender appears in
> IETF documents, but I don't see that analysis anywhere (unless I'm missing
> it?). Is that TBD?

Didn't mentioned but: It's a work in progress. Trying to adopt some
automated tools but for now making a kind of handcraft analysis.
> 
> The numbering on the whole in the draft got muddled up I think :) which
> made the rest of the document hard to follow.
> 
My mistake. But I attended the md and xml2rfcv3 tutorials. Will not
happen again, I hope.

> This is a "full" -00 draft, and it reads a bit rambly, which is fine. I
> think it will be slightly easier to review once the structure/numbering is
> sorted out!
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 7:11 PM Juliana Guerra <
> juliana@derechosdigitales.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hello everyone, last week we submitted a draft on feminism and protocols
>> which can be of interest in this group. This is a very preliminary
>> approach, trying to recognize the differentiated effects of protocols on
>> users who are part of traditionally marginalized groups. With this
>> document we would like to draw attention to the need to join efforts in
>> order to build safer, more accessible and inclusive digital environments.
>>
>> Your comments, questions and input will be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Juliana Guerra
>>
>>
>>
>> Name:           draft-guerra-feminism
>> Revision:       00
>> Title:          Feminism and protocols
>> Document date:  2019-03-11
>> Group:          Individual Submission
>> Pages:          15
>> URL:
>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-guerra-feminism-00.txt
>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-guerra-feminism/
>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guerra-feminism-00
>> Htmlized:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-guerra-feminism
>>
>>
>> Abstract:
>>    This document aims to describe how internet standrds and protocols
>>    and its implementations may impact diverse groups and communities.
>>    The research on how some protocol can be enabler for specific human
>>    rights while possibly restricting others has been documented in
>>    [RFC8280].  Similar to how RFC 8280 has taken a human rights lens
>>    through which to view engineering and design choices by internet
>>    standardisation, this document addreses the opportunities and
>>    vulnerabilities embedded within internet protocols for specific,
>>    traditionally maginalised groups.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>> submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> hrpc mailing list
>> hrpc@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>>
> 


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 18:48:55 +0100
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: doh@ietf.org, dns-privacy@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Proposal for a side-meeting on services centralization at IETF 104 Prague
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On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 08:29:21AM +0100,
 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote 
 a message of 22 lines which said:

> I modified the title of the meeting
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/104sidemeetings>
> because there is obviously no consensus on the problem or on the
> agenda. Anyway, a room is reserved if people want to meet on
> wednesday.

I swear this is the last time I send an email to the four mailing
lists together. One of the goals of the side meeting was precisely to
discuss the proper venue.

The side meeting had around 100 participants (room was full), and
lasted 1.75 hours. Shane Kerr was nice enough to take notes, they are
attached here. Also, I send the two set of slides that were shown at
the beginning of the meeting.


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# IETF 104 DoH Unofficial Side Meeting

When: 2019-03-27 15:00 CET

## Action Points

None.

## Stéphane Bortzmeyer introduces the meeting

Possible outcome:
- List of issues?
- Place(s) to discuss?

Potential List of Issues:
1. Protocol? HTTP too revealing?
2. Risk of centralization (DNS over Cloud, DNS accessing Others, ...)
3. Applications bypassing OS ("resolverless", ADD - "Applications Doing DNS")
4. Loss of control (ability to see what's going on and/or change it)
5. Issues with public resolver (location-specific answers, "split horizon")

## Jim Reid presents a possible list of issues

Issues from operator draft, draft-reid-doh-operator. Many will be statements of
the obvious. In other forums these are _not_ obvious.

## Discussion

Brian Dickson: Enterprise networks have a need to control DNS resolution.
Separate dissident requirements from enterprise requirements.

Jim Reid: All the choices here are bad.

Brian Dickson: DoT & DoH overlap, and may better be treated collectively. For
example service discovery and policy.

Watson Ladd: Think that there should be an operator draft. Wide range of cases.
Networks where you don't have administrative level controls. Do we want a world
where hotels intercept DNS traffic? Or residential ISPs?

Jim Reid: Not a simple matter of making it consumer choice.

Bret Jordan: Like the concepts of DoH. Need to separate out enterprise. Cannot
ignore (data leakage from internal systems). Like to understand threat actor
behavior.

Puneet Sood: Speaking as a home user. I want to ask the ISPs one question:
"Where is the privacy policy that my ISP has?"

Jonathan Reed: Like the idea of an operator draft. If we decide not to address
something we should document that. Also, privacy means different things to
different people.

Stéphane Bortzmeyer: In 2 hours we won't solve the problems of "can my ISP
access my data" and so on. Wider privacy issues are too large for this meeting.

Jason Livingood: Incorrect assumption to say that enterprise networks have
administrative control over all their endpoints. In terms of privacy policies...
DoH has prompted discussion at operators about DNS privacy. In Europe the GDPR
already covers that. A lot of other ISPs are having discussions about how to
make their policies better about DNS data. From Comcast there will be more
clarity coming soon; for example, we have never sold DNS data. Many of the
policies (like Google) talk about DNS data, but they do not address other layers
(like the web layer). Google tracks many different things at the web level, and
we need to talk about both things.

Daniel Khan Gillmor: It sounds like DNSOP may need to adopt work from DoH. There
are dissidents in enterprises. Also, if we should split out the enterprise
case, I would like to hear how.

Eric Rescorla: Lots of things that make people sad about DoH, but we need to
also think about the things that are good about DoH. We are talking about the
use of a centralized personal resolver and not the local one. Someone who
controls the network but does not control your computer is an attacker. When we
did the DoH version, we had to make sure that the web level was not leaking
information; since it was multiplexing there was an opportunity for leakage.
Policy designed to protect that. Much conversation about privacy and GDPR; a
number of practices that DoH is intended to stop are filtering and blocking, not
privacy. Filtering and blocking are not covered by the GDPR.

Tiru Konda: Malware exfiltrating information. Command and control information
over DNS. Enterprises expect DNS messages to be blocked against these.
Motivations should be that enterprises must provide DoT or DoH servers. 2nd
class of problem is from devices, especially IoT devices. User does not know how
to configure them, so we should have a way to locally provide a server.

Vittorio Bertola: Before starting discussion we need a statement. If you want a
list of issue that is fine with everyone you must accept all issues from
everyone. After a first phase we can maybe do something else.

Jim Reid and Ted Hardie have a hug. There's a lot of love in this room. 💕

Ted Hardie: "Privacy Considerations" RFC has useful terminology. Draft "for the
users" which has a statement which might be made by the IETF where there is a
hierarchy where users come first. Probably do not want a narrow context, just in
DNS.

Ralf Weber: Need to make sure that whatever we come up with _really_ helps the
users. One solution may not fit all. 10's or 100's of thousands of entities
providing service. This is harder for someone to go after rather than a few
cloud providers. Need to come up with a way for people to provision in an easy
way, scalable way. Probably need a working group to tackle DoH and DoT...
probably DPRIVE since it doesn't have the HTTP.

Matt Pounsett: Impossible to separate operational issues from dissidents. But we
are ignoring the trade-offs. Increased privacy in one way means less privacy and
security in other ways. Frequently operators protect users from hostile
software. Without finding some way to address that (at a similar economic level)
is irresponsible.

Brian Dickson: We can solve all the issues. Enterprise blocking DNS queries for
good reasons. Want to identify and block to maintain control for DNS. DoH is
mostly about enabling DNS resolution over HTTPS. If DoH were to do the same
thing over a unique port for non-dissident case it would solve most of the
problem. On a DoT vs. DoH... as a resolver upgrade I would prefer DoT since it
is a small upgrade on the resolver.

Karl Henderson: Nice to have a unified service discovery.

Katie P.: Thanks for the issues. With ISPs users know which companies they rely
on and where their data goes. Some ISPs are excellent. I would like explicit
opt-in. Expectations should not be changed by default.

Stéphane Bortzmeyer reminds people that this is the IETF and the main goal is to
develop protocols. We have to work on something concrete. Do not let the
discussion of the general issues of the Internet interfere with getting stuff
done.

Eliot Lear: Plea to developers about how they will implement. Trying to convince
people to change plans at the microphone are probably not a good use of time.
Next, I have heard that there are multiple threat models to address. Probably we
need to address that in the room. Next, it is not necessary for the end result
to be more protocols. Maybe BCP or documenting impact of work already done would
be useful.

Daniel Khan Gillmor: DoH has forced us to grapple with the idea that we are
leaking data. We have not informed the user. We may change who this data gets
to, which upsets people. None of this has been informed by user choice. Many
people do not have a choice about how they connect to the Internet. The default
is not necessarily more respectful of user choice. Next, I agree with folks who
are terrified of DNS over Cloudflare. That is _not_ a DoH problem.

Ulrich Isser: I have heard that DoH improves privacy, but if you mean using
Google then I am not impressed.

Wes Hardaker: The IETF has done a miserable job of presenting user choice. I
don't know how we can offer users more choices. Most users run on default
services until it gets so oppressive that IP addresses are spray-painted on the
side of a wall to get around it.

Brian Dickson: I agree with all of that, but I have to go back to the
enterprise. Naive since once a host is infected they will change the settings.
We have to protect other machines and against data leakage. No browser should
have a 3rd party as the default, ideally in a sandbox environment.

Antoin Verschuren: I get the feeling we are only trying to solve one use case.
We are forgetting that DNS is deployed so widely... there are networks which do
not have users. Machine networks that you want to protect against intrusion.

Sara Dickinson: Step back and think about the context. DoH came along and
changed the discussion. Now people are reacting to it. People are being very
reactive, "what are you doing to solve the problem now?" I think we need to be
very mindful about 3 or 5 years down the road. Much larger trust models with
long term implications.

Watson Ladd: Need to implement egress filtering. Have other services that used
to be provided by ISPs like e-mail. Unbundling of DNS has already been done, and
the unbundling issue of encryption.

Eric Rescorla: I don't want to ask a user for consent "do you want to use DoH?".
We're concerned about the enterprise consent to monitor and block versus other
kinds of networks monitoring and blocking. From a client perspective these are
indistinguishable. I am interested in ways for the network to authenticate to
the users to allow user choice. Next, I am also concerned about consolidation.
All DNS traffic going through Cloudflare is not ideal. Policy-compliant ISP
networks be able to advertise their DNS seems good. But current situation is not
fantastic.

Erik Nygren: The default scenario where a lot of the concern is around (not like
how people buy VPN today). Secondary side-effects that are hard to proceed. Come
up with a story where networks offer a trusted resolver, scaleably deploy these.
If you have to know a trusted list of browser vendors we will only have 10. Need
to think about economic incentives about trusted resovler operation. ISPs see
name service as a critical part of their operation. If some people who will run
it for the good of the Internet... the economic models should exist without
hidden side-models to encourage this. Would be good to give something for
operators to show regulators... but would that be good enough? So... is 90% of
users being filtered good enough? If that changes to 40% will governments
require something else? Will that be better or vastly worse?

Steve Farrell: A lot of repetition. Someone should do an objective analysis.
Talking about dissidents is absolutely not the right way to think about it. I am
not a dissident but I do have interest in my privacy. I don't think that DNSOP
is the right place, maybe merging DoH and DPRIVE. Don't give it to the IAB
because I am on it.

## Process Discussion

Paul Hoffman: Sending same message to 3 lists is not helpful. Subject lines
matter. At last count fewer than half of messages about Jim's draft were about
Jim's draft. We have heard that there are a wide variety of concerns. Some
people want it to be DNS, some want it taken above. Some are concerned about the
venue where DNS queries begin, others are not. If you have a concern, make it so
that others can tell from the subject line. Every privacy RFC ends up in a last
call that lasts 6 months. I have been impressed by lack of nastiness today, but
on the last call it dives into the mud quickly. It should be as clean as
possible to minimize acrimony that has come up every time. Lets do this right
and not be in a rush to get to last call. I think there should be a venue, and
it should not be a DNS venue (either DoH or DPRIVE). It's NOT protocol concerns.
It's user concerns. It's operator concerns.

Allison Mankin: Wondered whether we should have a Privacy Ops in Engineering
working group which spans across multiple protocols.

Stéphane Bortzmeyer: Some issues have nothing to do with privacy.

Allison Mankin: Even concerns related like consolidation can be met.

Alissa Cooper: Opinions about what to do can be discussed here but will not be
decided here.

Vittorio Bertola: Wanted to point out that you need a place with everything. Not
about privacy, but about user control.

Brian Dickson: Drafts that originated in DoH should go to a different location.

Jonathan Hoyland: Maybe an HRPC working group instead of research group would be
the right place to do it.

Jon Peterson: I want to see a charter that explains the pros and cons. If this
is about us telling people who they should trust I don't know where to put it.

Eric Rescorla: I think there are 3 work items: 1) a document describing risks on
all possible sides (I am not enthusiastic about that). 2) who we should trust 3)
protocol engineering around reducing centralization (sound like new working
group). Suggest people go away and have private conversations.

Jason Livingood: Probably 3 areas. Liked John's idea of talking about use cases
we are trying to solve. 2nd issue is DoH server/resolver discovery/selection and
Paul's draft begins that. 3rd (hardest) is the meta-issues, cross the protocols.
Issues around privacy, security, consolidation generally. How these 3 things get
done is amorphous.

Stéphane Bortzmeyer: We already have a lot of text in RFCs around this.

Ralf Weber: We have DoH and DoT and I would prefer these be merged. Combined
working group for operations.

Mallory Knodel: Important to have these issues when topics come up across the
board and not silo the issues when they come up. Add thoughts to considerations
alongside the technical considerations. Need to think of it as part of the
process and not something extra.

Watson Ladd: A draft can reflect consensus even if they reflect concerns of
operators. Can have a consolidated draft reflecting why DoH is good as well.
Political discussion of where to do the work should not slow down the work.

Sara Dickinson: DPRIVE privacy written as problem statement around DNS privacy.
Missing wider document. Would have been good to have that before DoH protocol
work, since DoH challenges the model. Revising the document now. Expand scope or
do that separately?


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From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 03:43:24 -0400
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] Review of draft-irtf-hrpc-political-01
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Heya, I want to thank Michael for this review and I just reviewed the
document this week myself (sorry so close to the HRPC meeting... I'm fresh
off of sabbatical and focusing on the iasa2 work for a few years).

Here are my comments, let me know if they make sense:


   - draft-irtf-hrpc-political-00
   -
      - Abstract:
      -
         - s/standards developing process/standards development process/
         - s/reflect was is considered/reflect what is considered/
         - "ordering of societies and communities" I don't think this will
         be clear to an engineering audience; we say this not just in
this draft but
         elsewhere too (-guidelines). There has to be a more
understandable way to
         say this if we're talking to IETF engineers.
         - "the consideration of the politics and (potential) impact of
         protocols should be part of the standardization and development
         process." This seems overly prescriptive and not a research
result, but a
         normative claim on changes to the IETF process; I think this
is out of line
         for an RG.
         - Intro
      -
         - This provides a useful list of past IETF RFCs that had to
         struggle with non-engineering factors in standards setting,
but then says,
         "Recently there has been an increased discussion on the
relation between
         Internet protocols and human rights [RFC8280]", pointing to
the HRPC IRTF
         RFC... I think this needs to qualify that this discussion had
happened in
         the IRTF and not ubiquitously across the IETF.
         - Would be great to find a more plain language way of saying
         "affordances". I'm not convinced the definition in the
terminology section
         is comprehensible to engineers. ("The possibilities that are
provided to an
         actors through the ordering of an environment by a technology.")
         - Terminology: there's no IETF-based document that defines
      "protocol"? I would swap with one or zap both protocols and
standards using
      the rationale Michael Rogers put forward (IETFers know what those are).
      - Research Question:
      -
         - It seems like the second part of the research question is
         getting close to stepping on IETF territory... And the
document doesn't
         *research* this question: "If so, should the politics of
protocols need to
         be taken into account in their development process?"
         - Section 4:
      -
         - This needs to be clear this discussion has happened at IRTF, not
         IETF or needs to cite more evidence: "Nonetheless there has been a
         recent uptick in discussions around the impact of Internet protocols
         on human rights [RFC8280] in the IETF and more general about
the impact of
         technology on society in the public debate."
         - This section is unclear in terms of if these are all academic or
         IETF-external views... the intro to this section seems to
overclaim about
         what the reader should expect. E.g., 4.2 and 4.3 have no
references; are
         any of these themes from community interviews or solely from the
         literature?
         -
            - This doesn't seem to reference interviews at all, so maybe
            clarify this is from academic and other literature?
            - Would be great to find a more simple term than "conurbation".
         - 4.3: this is perhaps a minor point, but even horse-powered
         vehicle culture at scale would require these things, so it's not
         self-evident this claim is true: "But even if that did not happen,
         widespread automobile use requires paved roads, and parking lots and
         structures.  These are pressures that come from the
automotive technology
         itself, and would not arise without that technology." (I
don't think this
         undermines the point being made here, but it's distracting.)
         - 4.5: the entire paragraph about the numbered Postman arguments
         is pretty opaque and needs the authors to unpack that or is
not relevant to
         engineers. I think you can delete this graph without much effect.
         - Again, this is a bit too abstract and could be stated more
         simply and concretely: "Finally, this view is that that protocols are
         political because they affect or sometimes effect the socio-technical
         ordering of reality."
         - Section 5:
      -
         - We either need to find a new way of saying "epistemic community"
         or define it.
         - 5.1: not sure what's going on here: "The next subsection will
         ---"
         - 5.1: is "economy studies" different from economics?
         - The ref to draft-arkko-ietf-finance-thoughts-00 is broken
         somehow
         - Agora? What is that?
         - Section 6:
      -
         - s/its standards output reflect was is considered by the
         technical community/its standards output reflect what is
considered by the
         technical community/
         - This is where the draft makes a leap that I think is too far:
         "This calls for providing a methodology in the IETF community
to evaluate
         which routes forward should indeed be feasible, what
constitutes the "good"
         in "good practice" and what trade-offs between different
feasible features
         of technologies are useful and should therefore be made
possible. Such an
         analysis should take societal implication into account." Only IETF
         consensus can get us to this and that's not going to come from an RG.
         -
            - While I agree that it's inevitable that these factors will
            affect and need to affect IETF work, I'm not sure it needs
to be done in
            the IETF (it can be an external body or some other entity
that concentrates
            expertise) and I'm not convinced that the IETF
participants will be on
            balance very good at this, given their collective
expertise is largely
            engineering.
            - I think this could be substantially elaborated/expanded and
         then be very useful: "The risk of not doing this is
threefold: (1) the IETF
         might makedecisions which have a political impact that was
not intended by
         thecommunity, (2) other bodies or entities might make the
decisions forthe
         IETF because the IETF does not have an explicit stance, (3)
otherbodies
         that do take these issues into account might increase
inimportance to the
         detriment of the influence of the IETF."
         - Section 7:
   -
      - s/United National/United Nations/
      - Unclear what this means, reword: "The complexity of the work
      inscribes a requirementof competence in the work in the IETF, which forms
      an inherentbarrier for end-user involvement."


On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 11:58 AM Michael Rogers <michael@briarproject.org>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Neils and Mallory asked me to review the current draft of "Notes on
> networking standards and politics".
>
> I'm afraid I went a bit overboard and recommended that it should be
> rewritten as a musical about a plucky kid lost in the big city and her
> scruffy dog sidekick, so please take my comments with plenty of salt.
>
> The review's attached, along with a diff against the markdown source
> containing some minor edits to spelling, punctuation and wording.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>


-- 
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org]
1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
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Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10  1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871

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--000000000000339883058522b650
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Heya, I want to thank Michael for this review and I j=
ust reviewed the document this week myself (sorry so close to the HRPC meet=
ing... I&#39;m fresh off of sabbatical and focusing on the iasa2 work for a=
 few years).</div><div><br></div><div>Here are my comments, let me know if =
they make sense:</div><div><br></div><div>

<span></span><ul><li><div>draft-irtf-hrpc-political-00
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>Abstract=
:=C2=A0
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>s/standa=
rds developing process/standards development process/
</div></li><li><div>s/reflect was is considered/reflect what is considered/
</div></li><li><div>&quot;<span>ordering of=C2=A0</span>societies and commu=
nities&quot; I don&#39;t think this will be clear to an engineering audienc=
e; we say this not just in this draft but elsewhere too (-guidelines). Ther=
e has to be a more understandable way to say this if we&#39;re talking to I=
ETF engineers.
</div></li><li><div>&quot;<span>the consideration of the politics and=C2=A0=
</span><span>(potential) impact of protocols should be part of the standard=
ization=C2=A0</span>and development process.&quot; This seems overly prescr=
iptive and not a research result, but a normative claim on changes to the I=
ETF process; I think this is out of line for an RG.
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>Intro
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>This pro=
vides a useful list of past IETF RFCs that had to struggle with non-enginee=
ring factors in standards setting, but then says, &quot;Recently there has =
been an increased discussion on the relation=C2=A0between Internet protocol=
s and human rights [RFC8280]&quot;, pointing to the HRPC IRTF RFC... I thin=
k this needs to qualify that this discussion had happened in the IRTF and n=
ot ubiquitously across the IETF.
</div></li><li><div>Would be great to find a more plain language way of say=
ing &quot;affordances&quot;. I&#39;m not convinced the definition in the te=
rminology section is comprehensible to engineers. (&quot;The possibilities =
that are provided to an actors through=C2=A0the ordering of an environment =
by a technology.&quot;)
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>Terminology: there&#39;s no IETF-based docume=
nt that defines &quot;protocol&quot;? I would swap with one or zap both pro=
tocols and standards using the rationale Michael Rogers put forward (IETFer=
s know what those are).<br></div></li><li><div>Research Question:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>It seems=
 like the second part of the research question is getting close to stepping=
 on IETF territory... And the document doesn&#39;t *research* this question=
: &quot;If so, should the politics of protocols=C2=A0need to be taken into =
account in their development process?&quot;
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>Section 4:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>This nee=
ds to be clear this discussion has happened at IRTF, not IETF or needs to c=
ite more evidence: &quot;Nonetheless there has been a recent=C2=A0uptick in=
 discussions around the impact of Internet protocols on=C2=A0human rights [=
RFC8280] in the IETF and more general about the impact=C2=A0of technology o=
n society in the public debate.&quot;
</div></li><li><div>This section is unclear in terms of if these are all ac=
ademic or IETF-external views... the intro to this section seems to overcla=
im about what the reader should expect. E.g., 4.2 and 4.3 have no reference=
s; are any of these themes from community interviews or solely from the lit=
erature?
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>This doe=
sn&#39;t seem to reference interviews at all, so maybe clarify this is from=
 academic and other literature?
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>Would be great to find a more simple term tha=
n &quot;conurbation&quot;.
</div></li><li><div>4.3: this is perhaps a minor point, but even horse-powe=
red vehicle culture at scale would require these things, so it&#39;s not se=
lf-evident this claim is true: &quot;But even if that did not happen, wides=
pread automobile=C2=A0use requires paved roads, and parking lots and struct=
ures.=C2=A0=C2=A0These are=C2=A0pressures that come from the automotive tec=
hnology itself, and would=C2=A0not arise without that technology.&quot; (I =
don&#39;t think this undermines the point being made here, but it&#39;s dis=
tracting.)
</div></li><li><div>4.5: the entire paragraph about the numbered Postman ar=
guments is pretty opaque and needs the authors to unpack that or is not rel=
evant to engineers. I think you can delete this graph without much effect.
</div></li><li><div>Again, this is a bit too abstract and could be stated m=
ore simply and concretely: &quot;Finally, this view is that that protocols=
=C2=A0are political because they affect or sometimes effect the socio-techn=
ical ordering of reality.&quot;
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>Section 5:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>We eithe=
r need to find a new way of saying &quot;epistemic community&quot; or defin=
e it.
</div></li><li><div>5.1: not sure what&#39;s going on here: &quot;The next =
subsection will ---&quot;
</div></li><li><div>5.1: is &quot;economy studies&quot; different from econ=
omics?
</div></li><li><div>The ref to=C2=A0draft-arkko-ietf-finance-thoughts-00 is=
 broken somehow
</div></li><li><div>Agora? What is that?
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>Section 6:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>s/its st=
andards output reflect was is considered by=C2=A0the technical community/it=
s standards output reflect what is considered by=C2=A0the technical communi=
ty/
</div></li><li><div>This is where the draft makes a leap that I think is to=
o far: &quot;This calls for providing a methodology in the IETF community t=
o evaluate which routes forward should indeed be feasible, what constitutes=
 the &quot;good&quot; in &quot;good practice&quot; and what trade-offs betw=
een different feasible features of technologies are useful and should there=
fore be made possible. Such an analysis should take societal implication in=
to account.&quot; Only IETF consensus can get us to this and that&#39;s not=
 going to come from an RG.<br></div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside no=
ne none"><ul><li><div>While I agree that it&#39;s inevitable that these fac=
tors will affect and need to affect IETF work, I&#39;m not sure it needs to=
 be done in the IETF (it can be an external body or some other entity that =
concentrates expertise) and I&#39;m not convinced that the IETF participant=
s will be on balance very good at this, given their collective expertise is=
 largely engineering.
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>I think this could be substantially elaborate=
d/expanded and then be very useful: &quot;The risk of not doing this is thr=
eefold: (1) the IETF might makedecisions which have a political impact that=
 was not intended by thecommunity, (2) other bodies or entities might make =
the decisions forthe IETF because the IETF does not have an explicit stance=
, (3) otherbodies that do take these issues into account might increase ini=
mportance to the detriment of the influence of the IETF.&quot;
</div></li></ul></li></ul></li><li><div>Section 7:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>s/United=
 National/United Nations/
</div></li><li><div>Unclear what this means, reword: &quot;The complexity o=
f the work inscribes a requirementof competence in the work in the IETF, wh=
ich forms an inherentbarrier for end-user involvement.&quot;
</div></li></ul></li></ul></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 11:58 AM Michael Rog=
ers &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael@briarproject.org">michael@briarproject.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>Hi all,<br>
<br>
Neils and Mallory asked me to review the current draft of &quot;Notes on<br=
>
networking standards and politics&quot;.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m afraid I went a bit overboard and recommended that it should be<br>
rewritten as a musical about a plucky kid lost in the big city and her<br>
scruffy dog sidekick, so please take my comments with plenty of salt.<br>
<br>
The review&#39;s attached, along with a diff against the markdown source<br=
>
containing some minor edits to spelling, punctuation and wording.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Michael<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
hrpc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">hrpc@irtf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Joseph Lorenzo =
Hall<br>Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy &amp; Technology [<a href=
=3D"https://www.cdt.org" target=3D"_blank">https://www.cdt.org</a>]<br>1401=
 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497<br>e: <a href=3D"mailto:joe@cdt.=
org" target=3D"_blank">joe@cdt.org</a>, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: <a href=3D"ht=
tps://josephhall.org/gpg-key" target=3D"_blank">https://josephhall.org/gpg-=
key</a><br>Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 =C2=A01607 5F86 6987 40A9 =
A871<br></div><div><br></div><div>Don&#39;t miss out! CDT&#39;s Tech Prom i=
s April 10, 2019, at The<br>Anthem. Please join us: <a href=3D"https://cdt.=
org/annual-dinner/" target=3D"_blank">https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/</a><br=
></div></div></div></div></div>

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From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 03:45:38 -0400
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To: Gurshabad Grover <gurshabad=40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt
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On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 3:00 AM Gurshabad Grover <gurshabad=
40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> On 11/03/19 5:16 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations RG
> of the IRTF.
>
> (Thanks to the chairs for scheduling time to discuss this draft at
> IETF104.)
>
>
>
Not sure if this is the best thread for feedback on this document, but here
is my most recent review:


   - draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
   -
      - 3.2: "Currently three five methods"
      - 3.2.2, could be clearer: "seeking to understand how it might
      provide a different ordering of the network or society."
      - 3.3.5, internet doesn't want anything: "If the Internet wants to be
      a global network of networks, the protocols should work with languages
      apart from English and character sets apart from Latin characters."
      - 3.3.6, double reference: "[RFC4941] This is why Privacy Extensions
      for Stateless Address Autoconfiguration in IPv6 have been introduced.
      [RFC4941]"
      - 3.3.6, I would reorder those questions
      - 3.3.8, the example seems unfinished?
      - 3.3.10, talks about "the internet" like "hip hop" (throughout the
      document, but especially apparent here)
      - 3.3.14, is this referring to encrypted intermediate storage? "or
      the implementation uses an encrypted store"
      - 3.3.15, how is the difference here between accuracy and consistency
      being thought out? Does consistency have a temporal/stateful
aspect? "Does
      your protocol maintain, assure and/or verify the accuracy of
payload data?
      Does your protocol maintain and assure the consistency of data?"
      - 3.3.15, the MITM description should probably be improved and
      bulleted? Should it hint at inactive MITM and should we call it something
      other than "man"?
      - 3.3.16, "man-in-the-middle-attacks" -> "man-in-the-middle attacks"
      - 3.3.16, "Bob can see the data did not come from Alice but from
      Corinne." remove "but by Corinne" as that may not be true.
      - 3.3.16, what about non-authenticity or knowing when to not ask for
      evidence of authenticity? E.g., attestation of hardware security devices
      like yubikeys may lock out people who use a different brand (Vanguard or
      Fidelity does this now).
      - 3.3.18, impacts bullet list broken
      - 3.3.19, typo "Does you protocol"
      - 5, looks like this should be a bullet list?


-- 
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org]
1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10  1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871

Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The
Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 3:00 AM Gursh=
abad Grover &lt;gurshabad=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.or=
g">40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 11/03/19 5:16 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:int=
ernet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote=
:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir=
ectories.<br>
&gt; This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations =
RG of the IRTF.<br>
<br>
(Thanks to the chairs for scheduling time to discuss this draft at IETF104.=
)<br>
<br><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not sure if this is the best threa=
d for feedback on this document, but here is my most recent review:</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>

<span></span><ul><li><div>draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>3.2: &qu=
ot;Currently three five methods&quot;
</div></li><li><div>3.2.2, could be clearer: &quot;<span>seeking to underst=
and how it might provide a different ordering of the network or society.&qu=
ot;</span>
</div></li><li><div>3.3.5, internet doesn&#39;t want anything: &quot;If the=
 Internet wants to be a global network of networks, the protocols should wo=
rk with languages apart from English and character sets apart from Latin ch=
aracters.&quot;
</div></li><li><div>3.3.6, double reference: &quot;[RFC4941] This is why Pr=
ivacy Extensions for Stateless Address Autoconfiguration in IPv6 have been =
introduced. [RFC4941]&quot;
</div></li><li><div>3.3.6, I would reorder those questions
</div></li><li><div>3.3.8, the example seems unfinished?
</div></li><li><div>3.3.10, talks about &quot;the internet&quot; like &quot=
;hip hop&quot; (throughout the document, but especially apparent here)
</div></li><li><div>3.3.14, is this referring to encrypted intermediate sto=
rage? &quot;<span>or the implementation uses an encrypted store&quot;</span=
>
</div></li><li><div>3.3.15, how is the difference here between accuracy and=
 consistency being thought out? Does consistency have a temporal/stateful a=
spect? &quot;Does your protocol maintain, assure and/or verify the accuracy=
 of payload data? Does your protocol maintain and assure the consistency of=
 data?&quot;
</div></li><li><div>3.3.15, the MITM description should probably be improve=
d and bulleted? Should it hint at inactive MITM and should we call it somet=
hing other than &quot;man&quot;?
</div></li><li><div>3.3.16, &quot;man-in-the-middle-attacks&quot; -&gt; &qu=
ot;man-in-the-middle attacks&quot;
</div></li><li><div>3.3.16, &quot;Bob can see the data did not come from Al=
ice but from Corinne.&quot; remove &quot;but by Corinne&quot; as that may n=
ot be true.
</div></li><li><div>3.3.16, what about non-authenticity or knowing when to =
not ask for evidence of authenticity? E.g., attestation of hardware securit=
y devices like yubikeys may lock out people who use a different brand (Vang=
uard or Fidelity does this now).
</div></li><li><div>3.3.18, impacts bullet list broken
</div></li><li><div>3.3.19, typo &quot;Does you protocol&quot;
</div></li><li><div>5, looks like this should be a bullet list?
</div></li></ul></li></ul> </div></div><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Joseph Lorenz=
o Hall<br>Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy &amp; Technology [<a hre=
f=3D"https://www.cdt.org" target=3D"_blank">https://www.cdt.org</a>]<br>140=
1 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497<br>e: <a href=3D"mailto:joe@cdt=
.org" target=3D"_blank">joe@cdt.org</a>, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: <a href=3D"h=
ttps://josephhall.org/gpg-key" target=3D"_blank">https://josephhall.org/gpg=
-key</a><br>Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 =C2=A01607 5F86 6987 40A9=
 A871<br></div><div><br></div><div>Don&#39;t miss out! CDT&#39;s Tech Prom =
is April 10, 2019, at The<br>Anthem. Please join us: <a href=3D"https://cdt=
.org/annual-dinner/" target=3D"_blank">https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/</a><b=
r></div></div></div></div></div></div>

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From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 03:51:40 -0400
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To: Gurshabad Grover <gurshabad=40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02.txt
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oops, there was one very weird comment in there from me that I should
explain: "talks about "the internet" like "hip hop""

What I mean is that there is a line of critique from rapper Mos Def about
how people talk about the musical genre hip-hop... he says, "People talk
about hip-hop as if it's some giant sleeping in a mountain or something
that has human attributes and desires." In essence, we can
over-anthropomorphize certain things in our common language ("hip-hop is
dead" "information wants to be free") and that this is often a crutch we
use when we could be more precise about practical realities.

Anyway, I'd just suggest folks keep an eye out for things like this and
instead reword to make sure we recognize that humans do these things...
e.g., instead of "If the Internet wants to be a global network of
networks..." we can say "If internet engineers want the Internet to be a
global network of networks,"

On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 3:45 AM Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 3:00 AM Gurshabad Grover <gurshabad=
> 40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> On 11/03/19 5:16 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>> >
>> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> directories.
>> > This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations
>> RG of the IRTF.
>>
>> (Thanks to the chairs for scheduling time to discuss this draft at
>> IETF104.)
>>
>>
>>
> Not sure if this is the best thread for feedback on this document, but
> here is my most recent review:
>
>
>    - draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
>    -
>       - 3.2: "Currently three five methods"
>       - 3.2.2, could be clearer: "seeking to understand how it might
>       provide a different ordering of the network or society."
>       - 3.3.5, internet doesn't want anything: "If the Internet wants to
>       be a global network of networks, the protocols should work with languages
>       apart from English and character sets apart from Latin characters."
>       - 3.3.6, double reference: "[RFC4941] This is why Privacy
>       Extensions for Stateless Address Autoconfiguration in IPv6 have been
>       introduced. [RFC4941]"
>       - 3.3.6, I would reorder those questions
>       - 3.3.8, the example seems unfinished?
>       - 3.3.10, talks about "the internet" like "hip hop" (throughout the
>       document, but especially apparent here)
>       - 3.3.14, is this referring to encrypted intermediate storage? "or
>       the implementation uses an encrypted store"
>       - 3.3.15, how is the difference here between accuracy and
>       consistency being thought out? Does consistency have a temporal/stateful
>       aspect? "Does your protocol maintain, assure and/or verify the accuracy of
>       payload data? Does your protocol maintain and assure the consistency of
>       data?"
>       - 3.3.15, the MITM description should probably be improved and
>       bulleted? Should it hint at inactive MITM and should we call it something
>       other than "man"?
>       - 3.3.16, "man-in-the-middle-attacks" -> "man-in-the-middle
>       attacks"
>       - 3.3.16, "Bob can see the data did not come from Alice but from
>       Corinne." remove "but by Corinne" as that may not be true.
>       - 3.3.16, what about non-authenticity or knowing when to not ask
>       for evidence of authenticity? E.g., attestation of hardware security
>       devices like yubikeys may lock out people who use a different brand
>       (Vanguard or Fidelity does this now).
>       - 3.3.18, impacts bullet list broken
>       - 3.3.19, typo "Does you protocol"
>       - 5, looks like this should be a bullet list?
>
>
> --
> Joseph Lorenzo Hall
> Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org
> ]
> 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
> e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
> Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10  1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871
>
> Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The
> Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/
>


-- 
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org]
1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10  1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871

Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The
Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">oops, there was one very weird comment in=
 there from me that I should explain: &quot;talks about &quot;the internet&=
quot; like &quot;hip hop&quot;&quot;</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div>W=
hat I mean is that there is a line of critique from rapper Mos Def about ho=
w people talk about the musical genre hip-hop... he says, &quot;People talk=
 about hip-hop as if it&#39;s some giant sleeping in a mountain or somethin=
g that has human attributes and desires.&quot; In essence, we can over-anth=
ropomorphize certain things in our common language (&quot;hip-hop is dead&q=
uot; &quot;information wants to be free&quot;) and that this is often a cru=
tch we use when we could be more precise about practical realities.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Anyway, I&#39;d just suggest folks keep an eye out for th=
ings like this and instead reword to make sure we recognize that humans do =
these things... e.g., instead of &quot;If the Internet wants to be a global=
 network of networks...&quot; we can say &quot;If internet engineers want t=
he Internet to be a global network of networks,&quot;</div></div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 28, =
2019 at 3:45 AM Joseph Lorenzo Hall &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:joe@cdt.org">joe@=
cdt.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 3:00 A=
M Gurshabad Grover &lt;gurshabad=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cis-india.org@dmarc.=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cis-india.org@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 11/03/19 5:16 =
PM, <a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-=
drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir=
ectories.<br>
&gt; This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations =
RG of the IRTF.<br>
<br>
(Thanks to the chairs for scheduling time to discuss this draft at IETF104.=
)<br>
<br><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not sure if this is the best threa=
d for feedback on this document, but here is my most recent review:</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>

<span></span><ul><li><div>draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-02
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>3.2: &qu=
ot;Currently three five methods&quot;
</div></li><li><div>3.2.2, could be clearer: &quot;<span>seeking to underst=
and how it might provide a different ordering of the network or society.&qu=
ot;</span>
</div></li><li><div>3.3.5, internet doesn&#39;t want anything: &quot;If the=
 Internet wants to be a global network of networks, the protocols should wo=
rk with languages apart from English and character sets apart from Latin ch=
aracters.&quot;
</div></li><li><div>3.3.6, double reference: &quot;[RFC4941] This is why Pr=
ivacy Extensions for Stateless Address Autoconfiguration in IPv6 have been =
introduced. [RFC4941]&quot;
</div></li><li><div>3.3.6, I would reorder those questions
</div></li><li><div>3.3.8, the example seems unfinished?
</div></li><li><div>3.3.10, talks about &quot;the internet&quot; like &quot=
;hip hop&quot; (throughout the document, but especially apparent here)
</div></li><li><div>3.3.14, is this referring to encrypted intermediate sto=
rage? &quot;<span>or the implementation uses an encrypted store&quot;</span=
>
</div></li><li><div>3.3.15, how is the difference here between accuracy and=
 consistency being thought out? Does consistency have a temporal/stateful a=
spect? &quot;Does your protocol maintain, assure and/or verify the accuracy=
 of payload data? Does your protocol maintain and assure the consistency of=
 data?&quot;
</div></li><li><div>3.3.15, the MITM description should probably be improve=
d and bulleted? Should it hint at inactive MITM and should we call it somet=
hing other than &quot;man&quot;?
</div></li><li><div>3.3.16, &quot;man-in-the-middle-attacks&quot; -&gt; &qu=
ot;man-in-the-middle attacks&quot;
</div></li><li><div>3.3.16, &quot;Bob can see the data did not come from Al=
ice but from Corinne.&quot; remove &quot;but by Corinne&quot; as that may n=
ot be true.
</div></li><li><div>3.3.16, what about non-authenticity or knowing when to =
not ask for evidence of authenticity? E.g., attestation of hardware securit=
y devices like yubikeys may lock out people who use a different brand (Vang=
uard or Fidelity does this now).
</div></li><li><div>3.3.18, impacts bullet list broken
</div></li><li><div>3.3.19, typo &quot;Does you protocol&quot;
</div></li><li><div>5, looks like this should be a bullet list?
</div></li></ul></li></ul> </div></div><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail-m_-6705939737898863779gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div>Joseph Lorenzo Hall<br>Chief Technologist, Center for Democr=
acy &amp; Technology [<a href=3D"https://www.cdt.org" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.cdt.org</a>]<br>1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497<br>=
e: <a href=3D"mailto:joe@cdt.org" target=3D"_blank">joe@cdt.org</a>, p: 202=
.407.8825, pgp: <a href=3D"https://josephhall.org/gpg-key" target=3D"_blank=
">https://josephhall.org/gpg-key</a><br>Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B=
10 =C2=A01607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871<br></div><div><br></div><div>Don&#39;t mi=
ss out! CDT&#39;s Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The<br>Anthem. Please joi=
n us: <a href=3D"https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/" target=3D"_blank">https://=
cdt.org/annual-dinner/</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Joseph Lorenzo =
Hall<br>Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy &amp; Technology [<a href=
=3D"https://www.cdt.org" target=3D"_blank">https://www.cdt.org</a>]<br>1401=
 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497<br>e: <a href=3D"mailto:joe@cdt.=
org" target=3D"_blank">joe@cdt.org</a>, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: <a href=3D"ht=
tps://josephhall.org/gpg-key" target=3D"_blank">https://josephhall.org/gpg-=
key</a><br>Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 =C2=A01607 5F86 6987 40A9 =
A871<br></div><div><br></div><div>Don&#39;t miss out! CDT&#39;s Tech Prom i=
s April 10, 2019, at The<br>Anthem. Please join us: <a href=3D"https://cdt.=
org/annual-dinner/" target=3D"_blank">https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/</a><br=
></div></div></div></div></div>

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 11:03:44 +0100
From: Avri <avri@apc.org>
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 Hi,
 

 
Apologies for last minute comments, but I was not sure about being able to continue with the research group until just recently.
 

 
I think this document is coming along nicely. I especially like the way it is attempting to gather consideration that relate to the various rights as opposed to just concentrating on one or two of the rights.
 

 
Some specific comments:  
 

 
- I think that perhaps in the abstract or the intro, it should mention that these are considerations are still under test.    You indicate that they are being still being developed but not that they still need test for usefulness and validity. This is an activity I think we still need to develop a methodology for - some rigorous manner of testing and documenting the testing.
 

 
- in 3.2.1  &  3.2.2 It seems to indicate that the considerations are not useful for doing an impact analaysis.    I think that when done in a last call review, they do contribute to doing an impact analysis. I think that might be a use we need to verify and test for, but I think it might be worth mentioning.    Though one distinction probably worth making is that use of the considerations while the protocol is in development is a process best done by those involved in the protocol development itself, while an impact analysis done as part of a last call is probably best done by an external observer.    So while I think it should be possible to use the same considerations in both processes, the way it is done and by whom probably varies. 

 
 

 
- in 3.3 you mention that we do not discuss the issue of whether a HR considerations section should be added.    I do not think that is an IRTF task. We should be be developing the considerations and testing them for their use and reasonableness.    Any proposal to make them part of an IETF process should probably be left to some future IETF process.    One of the things we have had an issue with, and some pointed comments on, is crossing into the actual IETF engineering process.
 

 
- in 3.3.x, I think it would be good to point to where the HR that are impacted by by the consideration are discussed and explained.    I know this may creates cross references to work that is not yet done, but it seems to just be left unexplained in the current draft.    I think that if the doc says a consideration is useful for, e.g., for the right of political participation or for participation in cultural life ... we should explain why somewhere - not in this doc but in a doc specifically related to the right and considerations pertinent to that right. Also might be worth listing the UDHR    and para reference for each so that they can be looked up by readers.
 

 
All in all, I think it is coming out well. thanks for the effort.
 

 
Avri
 

 
 

 
     
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<html><body><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><div></div>Hi,</div><div id=3D=22=
edo-message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>Apologies for last m=
inute comments, but I was not sure about being able to continue with the =
research group until just recently.</div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><br>=
</div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>I think this document is coming along n=
icely. I especially like the way it is attempting to gather consideration=
 that relate to the various rights as opposed to just concentrating on on=
e or two of the rights.</div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><br></div><div i=
d=3D=22edo-message=22>Some specific comments:&nbsp;</div><div id=3D=22edo=
-message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>- I think that perhaps =
in the abstract or the intro, it should mention that these are considerat=
ions are still under test. &nbsp;You indicate that they are being still b=
eing developed but not that they still need test for usefulness and valid=
ity. This is an activity I think we still need to develop a methodology f=
or - some rigorous manner of testing and documenting the testing.</div><d=
iv id=3D=22edo-message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>- in 3.2.=
1 &amp; 3.2.2 It seems to indicate that the considerations are not useful=
 for doing an impact analaysis. &nbsp;I think that when done in a last ca=
ll review, they do contribute to doing an impact analysis. I think that m=
ight be a use we need to verify and test for, but I think it might be wor=
th mentioning. &nbsp;Though one distinction probably worth making is that=
 use of the considerations while the protocol is in development is a proc=
ess best done by those involved in the protocol development itself, while=
 an impact analysis done as part of a last call is probably best done by =
an external observer. &nbsp;So while I think it should be possible to use=
 the same considerations in both processes, the way it is done and by who=
m probably varies.<div id=3D=22B2AB6E81-4918-47A1-B14E-6A3400560EC9=22></=
div></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22=
>- in 3.3 you mention that we do not discuss the issue of whether a HR co=
nsiderations section should be added. &nbsp;I do not think that is an IRT=
=46 task. We should be be developing the considerations and testing them =
for their use and reasonableness. &nbsp;Any proposal to make them part of=
 an IET=46 process should probably be left to some future IET=46 process.=
 &nbsp;One of the things we have had an issue with, and some pointed comm=
ents on, is crossing into the actual IET=46 engineering process.</div><di=
v id=3D=22edo-message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>- in 3.3.x=
, I think it would be good to point to where the HR that are impacted by =
by the consideration are discussed and explained. &nbsp;I know this may c=
reates cross references to work that is not yet done, but it seems to jus=
t be left unexplained in the current draft. &nbsp;I think that if the doc=
 says a consideration is useful for, e.g., for the right of political par=
ticipation or for participation in cultural life ... we should explain wh=
y somewhere - not in this doc but in a doc specifically related to the ri=
ght and considerations pertinent to that right. Also might be worth listi=
ng the UDHR &nbsp;and para reference for each so that they can be looked =
up by readers.</div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22ed=
o-message=22>All in all, I think it is coming out well. thanks for the ef=
fort.</div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=
=22>Avri</div><div id=3D=22edo-meta=22></div><div id=3D=22edo-original=22=
><div></div></div></body></html>
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 12:02:47 +0100
From: Avri <avri@apc.org>
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Subject: [hrpc] draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
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     =20
 =20

 Hi,
 =20

 =20
Again apologies for the last minute comments.
 =20

 =20
Abstract: saying that something establishes    =E2=80=98the causal link=E2=
=80=99 is a very strong claim.    Are we sure we want to make that strong=
 a claim=3F    Can we really prove a causal link and can we prove that it=
 is =E2=80=98the=E2=80=99 causal link. I personally do not see this draft=
 as establishing any causal links, though it does point toward where they=
 might be found.
 =20

 =20
Introduction: =E2=80=9Cby   investigating the exact impact of Internet pr=
otocols on specific human rights,=E2=80=9D again a very strong claim.    =
Can we ever really know the exact impact in some possible causal chain=3F=
    An even if we want to position a possible impact, we need more defini=
tive illustrations and argumentation.
 =20

 =20
There is an ambiguity between    allowing a right to prosper meaning a ri=
ght is enabled, and what looks like a claim to a =E2=80=98right to prospe=
r=E2=80=99. This is just a language nit, and I have avoided commenting on=
 those for the most part, but this jumped out at me.
 =20

 =20
4. Methodology
 =20

 =20
=E2=80=9Cbeen further validated through confirmatory research in the form=
   of Human Rights Protocol Reviews.=E2=80=9D I think this is the primary=
 reason for the HRPC to do reviews, but I do not beleive we have establis=
hed a methodology for doing those yet.    At this point some people are d=
oing reviews and delivering them to responses that vary from happy accept=
ance to irritation to shock and awe. As far as I can tell we have not yet=
 developed a systematic methodology for measuring the impact of the consi=
derations in test reviews. Nor are we yet studying the reviews to see how=
 they apply the considerations.    We have not yet established a rigorous=
 method for testing our ethnographically established hypothesis.  =20
 =20
 =20
 =20
=E2=80=9CEven though the present work does not seek to create new   guide=
lines, the conclusions could inform the development of new guidelines suc=
h as is done in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines.=E2=80=9D I think we need a ti=
ghter binding between the discussion in this draft and anywhere in the gu=
idelines where a consideration is said to be relevant to freedom of Expre=
ssion/Assembly.
 =20
 =20
 =20
 Perhaps this is a personal academic prejudice, but while I think ethnogr=
aphy is extremely useful in hypothesis formation, I do not see how it can=
 also serve to test and verify relevance and usefulness. Seems circular p=
rocess to me. I think we need to find other methods for testing and measu=
ring.
 =20
 =20
 =20
 6.    Cases and examples    =20
 =20
 =20
 =20
 =20
 =20
 Seems like a loose collection of internet features that may or may not h=
ave a positive or negative affect on expression  &  assembly.    I do not=
 see the persuasive argument that shows the possibility of a causal chain=
.    Perhaps I am just not seeing it and others do, I accept.    Even in =
the two discussion sections, 7  &  8, the draft seems to jump from assert=
ion to assertion without the rigor of argument that makes the conclusions=
 inescapable.    I do not see the arguments that show why consideration i=
n general or why specific considerations would be significant in enabling=
 or disabling the freedom of association and assembly, though the guideli=
nes does make those sorts of claims.
 =20
 =20
 =20
 Re considerations:    While I understand that the authors do not want to=
 introduce new considerations related to assembly and association - there=
 may not be any new considerations or changes to existing considerations,=
 I still think the draft needs to show a mapping between internet protoco=
ls and features and existing considerations.
 =20
 =20
 =20
 Note: I have not called them out, but the draft needs a spelling and gra=
mmatical scrubbing.
 =20
 =20
 =20
 Thanks for continued efforts on this draft.
 =20
 =20
 =20
 Avri
 =20

 =20
 =20

 =20
     
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<html><body><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><div></div>Hi,</div><div id=3D=22=
edo-message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>Again apologies for =
the last minute comments.</div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><br></div><div=
 id=3D=22edo-message=22>Abstract: saying that something establishes &nbsp=
;=E2=80=98the causal link=E2=80=99 is a very strong claim. &nbsp;Are we s=
ure we want to make that strong a claim=3F &nbsp;Can we really prove a ca=
usal link and can we prove that it is =E2=80=98the=E2=80=99 causal link. =
I personally do not see this draft as establishing any causal links, thou=
gh it does point toward where they might be found.</div><div id=3D=22edo-=
message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>Introduction: =E2=80=9C<=
span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);=22>by&nbsp;</sp=
an><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit-tap=
-highlight-color: transparent;=22>investigating the exact impact of Inter=
net protocols on specific
   human rights,=E2=80=9D again a very strong claim. &nbsp;Can we ever re=
ally know the exact impact in some possible causal chain=3F &nbsp;An even=
 if we want to position a possible impact, we need more definitive illust=
rations and argumentation.</span></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><br></=
div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>There is an ambiguity between &nbsp;allow=
ing a right to prosper meaning a right is enabled, and what looks like a =
claim to a =E2=80=98right to prosper=E2=80=99. This is just a language ni=
t, and I have avoided commenting on those for the most part, but this jum=
ped out at me.</div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22ed=
o-message=22>4. Methodology</div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><br></div><d=
iv id=3D=22edo-message=22>=E2=80=9C<span style=3D=22background-color: rgb=
a(255, 255, 255, 0);=22>been further validated through confirmatory resea=
rch in the form&nbsp;</span><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, =
255, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=22>of Human Right=
s Protocol Reviews.=E2=80=9D I think this is the primary reason for the H=
RPC to do reviews, but I do not beleive we have established a methodology=
 for doing those yet. &nbsp;At this point some people are doing reviews a=
nd delivering them to responses that vary from happy acceptance to irrita=
tion to shock and awe. As far as I can tell we have not yet developed a s=
ystematic methodology for measuring the impact of the considerations in t=
est reviews. Nor are we yet studying the reviews to see how they apply th=
e considerations. &nbsp;We have not yet established a rigorous method for=
 testing our ethnographically established hypothesis.&nbsp;</span></div><=
div id=3D=22edo-message=22><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 2=
55, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=22><br></span></di=
v><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>=E2=80=9C<span style=3D=22background-color:=
 rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);=22>Even though the present work does not seek to=
 create new&nbsp;</span><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 255,=
 255, 0); -webkit-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=22>guidelines, the co=
nclusions could inform the development of new
   guidelines such as is done in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines.=E2=80=9D I t=
hink we need a tighter binding between the discussion in this draft and a=
nywhere in the guidelines where a consideration is said to be relevant to=
 freedom of Expression/Assembly.</span></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>=
<span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-hi=
ghlight-color: transparent;=22><br></span></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22=
><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-h=
ighlight-color: transparent;=22>Perhaps this is a personal academic preju=
dice, but while I think ethnography is extremely useful in hypothesis for=
mation, I do not see how it can also serve to test and verify relevance a=
nd usefulness. Seems circular process to me. I think we need to find othe=
r methods for testing and measuring.</span></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=
=22><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit-ta=
p-highlight-color: transparent;=22><br></span></div><div id=3D=22edo-mess=
age=22><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit=
-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=22>6. &nbsp;Cases and examples&nbsp;<d=
iv id=3D=22028484=463-6BBE-4553-AD5D-83C78840CE05=22></div></span></div><=
div id=3D=22edo-message=22><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 2=
55, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=22><br></span></di=
v><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255=
, 255, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=22>Seems like a=
 loose collection of internet features that may or may not have a positiv=
e or negative affect on expression &amp; assembly. &nbsp;I do not see the=
 persuasive argument that shows the possibility of a causal chain. &nbsp;=
Perhaps I am just not seeing it and others do, I accept. &nbsp;Even in th=
e two discussion sections, 7 &amp; 8, the draft seems to jump from assert=
ion to assertion without the rigor of argument that makes the conclusions=
 inescapable. &nbsp;I do not see the arguments that show why consideratio=
n in general or why specific considerations would be significant in enabl=
ing or disabling the freedom of association and assembly, though the guid=
elines does make those sorts of claims.</span></div><div id=3D=22edo-mess=
age=22><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit=
-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=22><br></span></div><div id=3D=22edo-m=
essage=22><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -web=
kit-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=22>Re considerations: &nbsp;While I=
 understand that the authors do not want to introduce new considerations =
related to assembly and association - there may not be any new considerat=
ions or changes to existing considerations, I still think the draft needs=
 to show a mapping between internet protocols and features and existing c=
onsiderations.</span></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><span style=3D=22b=
ackground-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-highlight-color: tra=
nsparent;=22><br></span></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><span style=3D=22=
background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-highlight-color: tr=
ansparent;=22>Note: I have not called them out, but the draft needs a spe=
lling and grammatical scrubbing.</span></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>=
<span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-hi=
ghlight-color: transparent;=22><br></span></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22=
><span style=3D=22background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-h=
ighlight-color: transparent;=22>Thanks for continued efforts on this draf=
t.</span></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><span style=3D=22background-co=
lor: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=22=
><br></span></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><span style=3D=22background=
-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); -webkit-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=
=22>Avri</span></div><div id=3D=22edo-meta=22></div><div id=3D=22edo-orig=
inal=22><div></div></div></body></html>
--5c9ca9d7_41a7c4c9_5088--


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From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 13:17:25 +0100
Message-ID: <CABtrr-VKTciukmAXRa5oio-Fx1=WOVgpgfzHB28NUJ8YoNk9xA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Avri <avri@apc.org>
Cc: Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
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I've got comments coming too; will try not to be duplicative

On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 12:03 Avri <avri@apc.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Again apologies for the last minute comments.
>
> Abstract: saying that something establishes  =E2=80=98the causal link=E2=
=80=99 is a very
> strong claim.  Are we sure we want to make that strong a claim?  Can we
> really prove a causal link and can we prove that it is =E2=80=98the=E2=80=
=99 causal link. I
> personally do not see this draft as establishing any causal links, though
> it does point toward where they might be found.
>
> Introduction: =E2=80=9Cby investigating the exact impact of Internet prot=
ocols on
> specific human rights,=E2=80=9D again a very strong claim.  Can we ever r=
eally know
> the exact impact in some possible causal chain?  An even if we want to
> position a possible impact, we need more definitive illustrations and
> argumentation.
>
> There is an ambiguity between  allowing a right to prosper meaning a righ=
t
> is enabled, and what looks like a claim to a =E2=80=98right to prosper=E2=
=80=99. This is
> just a language nit, and I have avoided commenting on those for the most
> part, but this jumped out at me.
>
> 4. Methodology
>
> =E2=80=9Cbeen further validated through confirmatory research in the form=
 of
> Human Rights Protocol Reviews.=E2=80=9D I think this is the primary reaso=
n for the
> HRPC to do reviews, but I do not beleive we have established a methodolog=
y
> for doing those yet.  At this point some people are doing reviews and
> delivering them to responses that vary from happy acceptance to irritatio=
n
> to shock and awe. As far as I can tell we have not yet developed a
> systematic methodology for measuring the impact of the considerations in
> test reviews. Nor are we yet studying the reviews to see how they apply t=
he
> considerations.  We have not yet established a rigorous method for testin=
g
> our ethnographically established hypothesis.
>
> =E2=80=9CEven though the present work does not seek to create new guideli=
nes, the
> conclusions could inform the development of new guidelines such as is don=
e
> in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines.=E2=80=9D I think we need a tighter binding=
 between
> the discussion in this draft and anywhere in the guidelines where a
> consideration is said to be relevant to freedom of Expression/Assembly.
>
> Perhaps this is a personal academic prejudice, but while I think
> ethnography is extremely useful in hypothesis formation, I do not see how
> it can also serve to test and verify relevance and usefulness. Seems
> circular process to me. I think we need to find other methods for testing
> and measuring.
>
> 6.  Cases and examples
>
> Seems like a loose collection of internet features that may or may not
> have a positive or negative affect on expression & assembly.  I do not se=
e
> the persuasive argument that shows the possibility of a causal chain.
> Perhaps I am just not seeing it and others do, I accept.  Even in the two
> discussion sections, 7 & 8, the draft seems to jump from assertion to
> assertion without the rigor of argument that makes the conclusions
> inescapable.  I do not see the arguments that show why consideration in
> general or why specific considerations would be significant in enabling o=
r
> disabling the freedom of association and assembly, though the guidelines
> does make those sorts of claims.
>
> Re considerations:  While I understand that the authors do not want to
> introduce new considerations related to assembly and association - there
> may not be any new considerations or changes to existing considerations, =
I
> still think the draft needs to show a mapping between internet protocols
> and features and existing considerations.
>
> Note: I have not called them out, but the draft needs a spelling and
> grammatical scrubbing.
>
> Thanks for continued efforts on this draft.
>
> Avri
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>
--=20
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org]
1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10  1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871

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<div><div dir=3D"auto">I&#39;ve got comments coming too; will try not to be=
 duplicative</div></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr=
" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 12:03 Avri &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:avri@apc.org">avri@apc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"><div></div>H=
i,</div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"><br></div><div id=3D"m_=
194849139555349261edo-message">Again apologies for the last minute comments=
.</div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"><br></div><div id=3D"m_1=
94849139555349261edo-message">Abstract: saying that something establishes =
=C2=A0=E2=80=98the causal link=E2=80=99 is a very strong claim.=C2=A0 Are w=
e sure we want to make that strong a claim?=C2=A0 Can we really prove a cau=
sal link and can we prove that it is =E2=80=98the=E2=80=99 causal link. I p=
ersonally do not see this draft as establishing any causal links, though it=
 does point toward where they might be found.</div><div id=3D"m_19484913955=
5349261edo-message"><br></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message">I=
ntroduction: =E2=80=9C<span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">=
by=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">investi=
gating the exact impact of Internet protocols on specific
   human rights,=E2=80=9D again a very strong claim.=C2=A0 Can we ever real=
ly know the exact impact in some possible causal chain?=C2=A0 An even if we=
 want to position a possible impact, we need more definitive illustrations =
and argumentation.</span></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message">=
<br></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message">There is an ambiguity=
 between =C2=A0allowing a right to prosper meaning a right is enabled, and =
what looks like a claim to a =E2=80=98right to prosper=E2=80=99. This is ju=
st a language nit, and I have avoided commenting on those for the most part=
, but this jumped out at me.</div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-messag=
e"><br></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message">4. Methodology</di=
v><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"><br></div><div id=3D"m_194849=
139555349261edo-message">=E2=80=9C<span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,=
255,255,0)">been further validated through confirmatory research in the for=
m=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">of Human=
 Rights Protocol Reviews.=E2=80=9D I think this is the primary reason for t=
he HRPC to do reviews, but I do not beleive we have established a methodolo=
gy for doing those yet.=C2=A0 At this point some people are doing reviews a=
nd delivering them to responses that vary from happy acceptance to irritati=
on to shock and awe. As far as I can tell we have not yet developed a syste=
matic methodology for measuring the impact of the considerations in test re=
views. Nor are we yet studying the reviews to see how they apply the consid=
erations.=C2=A0 We have not yet established a rigorous method for testing o=
ur ethnographically established hypothesis.=C2=A0</span></div><div id=3D"m_=
194849139555349261edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255=
,255,0)"><br></span></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message">=E2=
=80=9C<span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Even though the =
present work does not seek to create new=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"backgro=
und-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">guidelines, the conclusions could inform the=
 development of new
   guidelines such as is done in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines.=E2=80=9D I thi=
nk we need a tighter binding between the discussion in this draft and anywh=
ere in the guidelines where a consideration is said to be relevant to freed=
om of Expression/Assembly.</span></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-m=
essage"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></d=
iv><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"><span style=3D"background-co=
lor:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Perhaps this is a personal academic prejudice, but=
 while I think ethnography is extremely useful in hypothesis formation, I d=
o not see how it can also serve to test and verify relevance and usefulness=
. Seems circular process to me. I think we need to find other methods for t=
esting and measuring.</span></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-messag=
e"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><d=
iv id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:r=
gba(255,255,255,0)">6.=C2=A0 Cases and examples=C2=A0<div id=3D"m_194849139=
555349261028484F3-6BBE-4553-AD5D-83C78840CE05"></div></span></div><div id=
=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(2=
55,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"=
><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Seems like a loose co=
llection of internet features that may or may not have a positive or negati=
ve affect on expression &amp; assembly.=C2=A0 I do not see the persuasive a=
rgument that shows the possibility of a causal chain.=C2=A0 Perhaps I am ju=
st not seeing it and others do, I accept.=C2=A0 Even in the two discussion =
sections, 7 &amp; 8, the draft seems to jump from assertion to assertion wi=
thout the rigor of argument that makes the conclusions inescapable.=C2=A0 I=
 do not see the arguments that show why consideration in general or why spe=
cific considerations would be significant in enabling or disabling the free=
dom of association and assembly, though the guidelines does make those sort=
s of claims.</span></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"><span =
style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div id=3D"=
m_194849139555349261edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,2=
55,255,0)">Re considerations: =C2=A0While I understand that the authors do =
not want to introduce new considerations related to assembly and associatio=
n - there may not be any new considerations or changes to existing consider=
ations, I still think the draft needs to show a mapping between internet pr=
otocols and features and existing considerations.</span></div><div id=3D"m_=
194849139555349261edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255=
,255,0)"><br></span></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"><span=
 style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Note: I have not called the=
m out, but the draft needs a spelling and grammatical scrubbing.</span></di=
v><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"><span style=3D"background-col=
or:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo=
-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Thanks for c=
ontinued efforts on this draft.</span></div></div><div><div id=3D"m_1948491=
39555349261edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)=
"><br></span></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-message"><span style=
=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Avri</span></div><div id=3D"m_194=
849139555349261edo-meta"></div><div id=3D"m_194849139555349261edo-original"=
><div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
hrpc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">hrpc@irtf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Joseph Lorenzo Hall<br>Chief Technologis=
t, Center for Democracy &amp; Technology [<a href=3D"https://www.cdt.org">h=
ttps://www.cdt.org</a>]<br>1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497<b=
r>e: <a href=3D"mailto:joe@cdt.org">joe@cdt.org</a>, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: =
<a href=3D"https://josephhall.org/gpg-key">https://josephhall.org/gpg-key</=
a><br>Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10=C2=A0 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871<=
/div>

--0000000000002eaa8c0585268a27--


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Hi Avri,

Thanks for the comments, response inline:

On 3/28/19 12:02 PM, Avri wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Again apologies for the last minute comments.
> 
> Abstract: saying that something establishes  ‘the causal link’ is a very strong claim.  Are we sure we want to make that strong a claim?  Can we really prove a causal link and can we prove that it is ‘the’ causal link. I personally do not see this draft as establishing any causal links, though it does point toward where they might be found.

Could you elaborate why? There is a research question, proposition, a clear understanding of the concepts, and the relation is shown consistently across various cases. So why do you think causality cannot be shown here?

> 
> Introduction: “by investigating the exact impact of Internet protocols on specific human rights,” again a very strong claim.  Can we ever really know the exact impact in some possible causal chain?  An even if we want to position a possible impact, we need more definitive illustrations and argumentation.

I think we describe quite a few cases. What are you missing?

> 
> There is an ambiguity between  allowing a right to prosper meaning a right is enabled, and what looks like a claim to a ‘right to prosper’. This is just a language nit, and I have avoided commenting on those for the most part, but this jumped out at me.
> 

Good point. Changed into:

One one hand, the right to freedom of assembly and association protects collective expression. Likewise, systems and protocols that enable communal interactions between people and servers enable this right given that the Internet itself was originally designed as "a medium of communication for machines that share resources with each other as equals" {{NelsonHedlun}}.



> 4. Methodology
> 
> “been further validated through confirmatory research in the form of Human Rights Protocol Reviews.” I think this is the primary reason for the HRPC to do reviews, but I do not beleive we have established a methodology for doing those yet. 

The reviews gathered data that we use for confirmation, for that they do not need to be standardized themselves, it is about the data they produce with furthered the relation.

> At this point some people are doing reviews and delivering them to responses that vary from happy acceptance to irritation to shock and awe. As far as I can tell we have not yet developed a systematic methodology for measuring the impact of the considerations in test reviews.

But that is also not the topic of draft-association, nor needed for the reviews to increase the validity of the claim. 

> Nor are we yet studying the reviews to see how they apply the considerations.  We have not yet established a rigorous method for testing our ethnographically established hypothesis. 

Idem.

> 
> “Even though the present work does not seek to create new guidelines, the conclusions could inform the development of new guidelines such as is done in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines.” I think we need a tighter binding between the discussion in this draft and anywhere in the guidelines where a consideration is said to be relevant to freedom of Expression/Assembly.

We did improve the interrelation, as you suggested during last session, do you have an idea how this could be done better?

> 
> Perhaps this is a personal academic prejudice, but while I think ethnography is extremely useful in hypothesis formation, I do not see how it can also serve to test and verify relevance and usefulness. Seems circular process to me. I think we need to find other methods for testing and measuring.
> 

You seem to say here that you reject ethnography as a scientific method to establish relations? Ethnography is the systematic study of groups of people and exactly aimed at understanding relations, so I hope you can provide more background to this, quite strong, claim.

> 6.  Cases and examples 
> 
> Seems like a loose collection of internet features that may or may not have a positive or negative affect on expression & assembly.  

Are you criticizing the method of case selection? Because what you describe seems to be indeed a case study format. 

I do not see the persuasive argument that shows the possibility of a causal chain.  Perhaps I am just not seeing it and others do, I accept.  Even in the two discussion sections, 7 & 8, the draft seems to jump from assertion to assertion without the rigor of argument that makes the conclusions inescapable. 

Could you comment in text? Because I think the discussions are quite tight.

 I do not see the arguments that show why consideration in general or why specific considerations would be significant in enabling or disabling the freedom of association and assembly, though the guidelines does make those sorts of claims.

I don't think this documents makes a statement about considerations at all, neither in the cases, nor in the conclusion. It just shows that there are interrelated concerns in RFC8280 and this document. During last session you asked us to foreground these interrelations, as you did above, and so we did.

But the argument is not about considerations, but about the relation between protocols and architecture and the right to association and assembly,

> 
> Re considerations:  While I understand that the authors do not want to introduce new considerations related to assembly and association - there may not be any new considerations or changes to existing considerations, I still think the draft needs to show a mapping between internet protocols and features and existing considerations.

These are mentioned after every case.

> 
> Note: I have not called them out, but the draft needs a spelling and grammatical scrubbing.

Agreed, will do. But also hope to work on this with the RFC editor. 

> 
> Thanks for continued efforts on this draft.
> 

Thanks for the review and happy to discuss.

Best,

Niels

> Avri
> 
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
> 

-- 
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
DATACTIVE Research Group
University of Amsterdam

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On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 01:09:08PM +0100,
 Shivan <shivankaul.1993@gmail.com> wrote 
 a message of 231 lines which said:

> 1.4.2.  2.2. (?) mentions that the draft delves into how gender appears in
> IETF documents, but I don't see that analysis anywhere (unless I'm missing
> it?). Is that TBD?

Yes. An example:

In all RFCs, there are 372 occurrences of 'he' and 140 of
'she'. Warning: 'he' and 'she' sometimes refer to real persons (so the
RFC author had no choice) and sometimes to personae ("the user then
selects X or, if she prefers, Y").

In the RFCs published in 2005 or after (this year was chosen
arbitrarily), its 162 and 93. Some progress, from 18 % to 36 %.


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Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
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Hi all,

Some additional points just before we all meet about this very soon:

On 28/03/2019 12:02, Avri wrote:
>=20
> Re considerations: =A0While I understand that the authors do not want t=
o
> introduce new considerations related to assembly and association - ther=
e
> may not be any new considerations or changes to existing considerations=
,
> I still think the draft needs to show a mapping between internet
> protocols and features and existing considerations.
>=20

I think that if we take RFC 8280 into its component rights to go deeper,
as has been proposed in the past for a "path" of work for this RG, then
I think it would make very good sense to update the considerations in
RFC 8280 as we go deeper.

Another point on structure: I would like to know from the group,
especially folks who have yet to send in their comments, what you think
could be done with the two discussion sections at the end to either
bring those into the case studies or further up in the text, or if they
should remain but perhaps pull in earlier sections. To me they seem
disconnected. I would like to finishing reading the document with a
better analytical understanding and not be left with huge open
questions. I guess a considerations section would help with that, too.

One final point on substance: I think in the intro and then bookended by
the conclusions there can be an awareness raising that freedom of
association online is all the more important because of the shrinking of
civic space offline. Relatedly in the feminist draft there's a section
that talks about how the internet has changed governance and has created
new forms of governance and citizenship.

Thanks,
-Mallory

--=20
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


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 Leaving aside the rest of your responses for a later time after more consideration.
 

 
Regarding the point below, RFC Editor made a special meniton on this sort of thing yesterday and asked that people not leave such issues for the RFC editor.
 

 
Also, I do not beleive this draft is ready for the RFC editor, but will leave that for further discussion to the group
 

 
 

 
>  
> On Mar 28, 2019 at 13:19,  <Niels ten Oever (mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net)>  wrote:
>     >    
>  
>  
> >  Note: I have not called them out, but the draft needs a spelling and grammatical scrubbing. 
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> Agreed, will do. But also hope to work on this with the RFC editor. 
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<html><body><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><div></div>Leaving aside the rest=
 of your responses for a later time after more consideration.</div><div i=
d=3D=22edo-message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>Regarding the=
 point below, R=46C Editor made a special meniton on this sort of thing y=
esterday and asked that people not leave such issues for the R=46C editor=
.</div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22><br></div><div id=3D=22edo-message=22>=
Also, I do not beleive this draft is ready for the R=46C editor, but will=
 leave that for further discussion to the group</div><div id=3D=22edo-met=
a=22></div><div id=3D=22edo-original=22><div><br><blockquote type=3D=22ci=
te=22 style=3D=22margin:1ex 0 0 0;border-left:1px =23ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:0.5ex;=22><div>On Mar 28, 2019 at 13:19, &lt;<a href=3D=22mailto:mail=40=
nielstenoever.net=22>Niels ten Oever</a>&gt; wrote:<br><span style=3D=22-=
webkit-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=22>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D=22=
-webkit-tap-highlight-color: transparent;=22>&gt;&nbsp;</span></div><div>=
<pre><br>&gt; Note: I have not called them out, but the draft needs a spe=
lling and grammatical scrubbing.
<br>
<br>Agreed, will do. But also hope to work on this with the R=46C editor.=
 =20
<br>
<br>&gt; =20
<br><br></pre><pre><br></pre><pre><br></pre><pre><br></pre><pre><br></pre=
><pre><br></pre><pre><br></pre><pre><br></pre><pre><br></pre><pre><br></p=
re><pre><br></pre><pre><br></pre><pre><br></pre><pre><br></pre><pre><br><=
/pre><pre><br></pre><pre><br></pre></div></blockquote></div></div></body>=
</html>
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From: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
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On 3/28/19 2:45 PM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
> I think that if we take RFC 8280 into its component rights to go deeper,
> as has been proposed in the past for a "path" of work for this RG, then
> I think it would make very good sense to update the considerations in
> RFC 8280 as we go deeper.

One thing that I think really needs to be considered is the
development of a methodology for evaluating 8280 in the context
of reviews that are being done.  Indeed, until that's done
the real value of the reviews lies in what they tell us
about the correctness of 8280.

Although I think this is an important topic and I'm happy to
see work being done on the right to association and its implications
for the internet, I'm not a huge fan of this draft in its current state.
I'll post a proper review next week.  I do not think it's ready for
the RFC editor.

Melinda

-- 
Software longa, hardware brevis

PGP key fingerprint  4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2
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From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 10:14:16 -0400
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On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 9:45 AM Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Some additional points just before we all meet about this very soon:
> ...
>
> Another point on structure: I would like to know from the group,
> especially folks who have yet to send in their comments, what you think
> could be done with the two discussion sections at the end to either
> bring those into the case studies or further up in the text, or if they
> should remain but perhaps pull in earlier sections. To me they seem
> disconnected. I would like to finishing reading the document with a
> better analytical understanding and not be left with huge open
> questions. I guess a considerations section would help with that, too.
>

I actually like those sections where they are... Section 7 is great
although I will comment it's a bit strong about having "established" a
relationship (which is related to causality, on which I agree with Avri and
have a bunch more to say). Section 8 is a bit unclear to me although I see
that it is trying to say that while the Internet is a place that has the
capacity to support association there are increasing factors that make that
exceedingly complex.

As I'll say in my review, I really like how 6.1.1. breaks out specific
pieces of the association analysis and it might be good to do that across
all the cases in an aggregate way in Section 8 to remind the reader what
they just read and lend support for the case that section is making.

best, Joe

PS: I've done my review but want to de-dup with Avri's before sending... I
can just send if folks want that before HRPC session! Again, so very very
sorry for such a late review close to the meeting.

-- 
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org]
1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10  1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 9:45 AM =
Mallory Knodel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mallory@article19.org">mallory@article=
19.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex">Hi all,<br>
<br>
Some additional points just before we all meet about this very soon:<br>
...<br><br>
Another point on structure: I would like to know from the group,<br>
especially folks who have yet to send in their comments, what you think<br>
could be done with the two discussion sections at the end to either<br>
bring those into the case studies or further up in the text, or if they<br>
should remain but perhaps pull in earlier sections. To me they seem<br>
disconnected. I would like to finishing reading the document with a<br>
better analytical understanding and not be left with huge open<br>
questions. I guess a considerations section would help with that, too.<br><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>I actually like those sections where they a=
re... Section 7 is great although I will comment it&#39;s a bit strong abou=
t having &quot;established&quot; a relationship (which is related to causal=
ity, on which I agree with Avri and have a bunch more to say). Section 8 is=
 a bit unclear to me although I see that it is trying to say that while the=
 Internet is a place that has the capacity to support association there are=
 increasing factors that make that exceedingly complex.</div><div><br></div=
><div>As I&#39;ll say in my review, I really like how 6.1.1. breaks out spe=
cific pieces of the association analysis and it might be good to do that ac=
ross all the cases in an aggregate way in Section 8 to remind the reader wh=
at they just read and lend support for the case that section is making.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>best, Joe<br></div></div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div=
>PS: I&#39;ve done my review but want to de-dup with Avri&#39;s before send=
ing... I can just send if folks want that before HRPC session! Again, so ve=
ry very sorry for such a late review close to the meeting.</div><div><br></=
div><div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Joseph Lorenzo Hall<br>Chief Technologist, Cent=
er for Democracy &amp; Technology [<a href=3D"https://www.cdt.org" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.cdt.org</a>]<br>1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC=
 20005-3497<br>e: <a href=3D"mailto:joe@cdt.org" target=3D"_blank">joe@cdt.=
org</a>, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: <a href=3D"https://josephhall.org/gpg-key" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://josephhall.org/gpg-key</a><br>Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D=
7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 =C2=A01607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871<br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Don&#39;t miss out! CDT&#39;s Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The<br>Ant=
hem. Please join us: <a href=3D"https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/" target=3D"_=
blank">https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/</a><br></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div>

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From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 10:15:10 -0400
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To: Avri <avri@apc.org>
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On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 9:50 AM Avri <avri@apc.org> wrote:

> Leaving aside the rest of your responses for a later time after more
> consideration.
>
> Regarding the point below, RFC Editor made a special meniton on this sort
> of thing yesterday and asked that people not leave such issues for the RFC
> editor..
>

Big +1 here; we should give the RFC Editor as clean of a document as we
can, hoping that they will need to make as few changes as possible. We can
do it. best, Joe

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 9:50 AM Avri =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:avri@apc.org">avri@apc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-14=
23650001490829224edo-message"><div></div>Leaving aside the rest of your res=
ponses for a later time after more consideration.</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-=
1423650001490829224edo-message"><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-1423650001490=
829224edo-message">Regarding the point below, RFC Editor made a special men=
iton on this sort of thing yesterday and asked that people not leave such i=
ssues for the RFC editor..</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Big=
=C2=A0+1 here; we should give the RFC Editor as clean of a document as we c=
an, hoping that they will need to make as few changes as possible. We can d=
o it. best, Joe <br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div>

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From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 10:26:05 -0400
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To: Avri <avri@apc.org>
Cc: Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
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I'm just going to share my own comments now, without having de-duped across
Avri. Happy to clarify and let me know if I'm being brain-dead anywhere:


   - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
   -
      - Abstract:
      -
         - "causal=E2=80=9D? That=E2=80=99s a pretty surprising claim to be=
 making here=E2=80=A6
         maybe I=E2=80=99m missing something?
         - It feels like the first sentence should be last, or that a final
         sentence should be added specific to association, or the
entire abstract
         redrafted to focus more clearly on the specific right --
association -- the
         document addresses.
         - Intro:
      -
         - Could be edited to be a bit more concrete, and make the very
         good points it does make more clearly.
         - Define "epistemic community"
         - Typo: "As the Internet grows, decisions made about its
         architecture are become more important"
         - I would probably change =E2=80=9Cestablished=E2=80=9D here to =
=E2=80=9Cdescribed=E2=80=9D:
         "[RFC8280] established the relationship between human rights
and Internet
         protocols."
         - Section 2:
      -
         - might be good to have colons (=E2=80=9C:=E2=80=9D) after each te=
rm to
         distinguish the term from the definition?
         - can=E2=80=99t distributed systems have their behavior coordinate=
d by
         other things than message passing? (e.g., a global clock).
         - The Infrastructure definition could benefit from being more
         concrete=E2=80=A6 I would think modifying a more standard definiti=
on
first =E2=80=94 e.g.,
         "the basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (=
e.g.
         buildings, roads, power supplies) needed for the operation of
a society or
         enterprise.=E2=80=9D) =E2=80=94 and then extending it would be bet=
ter.
         - Internet seems to be a cluster of definitions=E2=80=A6 is the re=
ader
         supposed to pick one, consider them all, or?
         - 4. Methodology:
      -
         - Again, I would say =E2=80=9Cdescribe=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=
=9Cestablish=E2=80=9D in "an
         initial effort to establish the relationship between human
rights and the
         Internet architecture"
         - again with the =E2=80=9Ccausal=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cit ultimately =
established either
         causal or deterministic relationships between aforementioned conce=
pts
         through a series of case studies."
         - this is uncited=E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m not sure this document can =
claim anything
         further about 8280-like work without referencing something to show=
 how
         individuals using 8280 have confirmed research in 8280:
"further validated
         through confirmatory research in the form of Human Rights
Protocol Reviews"
         - This definitely needs elaboration within the document! I know
         what these words mean methodologically-speaking, but I=E2=80=99ve
never seen them
         composed like this and that may just be me being not familiar
with this
         strain of research (despite being a qualitative methods geek): =E2=
=80=9Cwe
         therefore aim to test the causal relationship through a case-selec=
tion
         method, where we have adopted a purposive sampling approach,
aimed at the
         typicality and paradigmatic nature of the cases
[SeawrightGerring] to help
         us achieve an attempt at an an ethnography of infrastructure [Star=
]."
         - Section 5, Lit review:
      -
         - I=E2=80=99d like to believe this but it=E2=80=99s not immediatel=
y obvious that
         the reference here supports the assertion made in this
sentence: "The IETF
         itself, defined as a 'open global community' of network designers,
         operators, vendors, and researchers is also protected by freedom o=
f
         assembly and association [RFC3233]."
         - Section 6, cases and examples:
      -
         - I really really like the clarity of the analysis in 6.1.1 in the
         third paragraph where each of the elements of free
association are examined
         in that case=E2=80=A6 I see that other sections try to do this but
aren=E2=80=99t nearly as
         clear and lucid as this first case. It would be great to try
and tighten up
         the other cases analyses here.
         - wondering if the list at the end of each subsubsection might
         better be comma-delimited rather than dash-delimited.
         - 6.1.2: hmmm, WebRTC is basically a two-party protocol, while
         PERC is the multi-party conference mixing version=E2=80=A6 so mayb=
e
=E2=80=9Cmulti-party=E2=80=9D
         should be modified here: "Multi-party video conferencing
protocols like
         WebRTC [RFC6176][RFC7118]..."
         - 6.2, certainly people share =E2=80=9Cproprietary=E2=80=9D inform=
ation via
         peer-to-peer tools and services=E2=80=A6 I think the point here is
that peers don=E2=80=99t
         themselves encumber downstream recipients with additional
terms that would
         make it hard to share further (but that the object being
shared may have
         other proprietary interests such as copyright=E2=80=A6). Not sure =
if
we need to do
         anything here it was just a subtlety that might be confusing to so=
me
         readers.
         - 6.2.2: this should be modified to reflect the new GIT WG and
         drafts? "There have been two efforts to standardize the
workflow vis a vis
         these third party services, but these haven't come to fruition: [W=
ugh]
         [GithubIETF]."
         - Section 7: Discussion: Establishing the relation
      -
         - can we find a different way to say =E2=80=9Cjuridically=E2=80=9D=
?
         - s/These preliminary finding suggest/These preliminary findings
         suggest/
         - I really like this section, although I think it is a bit
         overclaiming in that it seems to imply an exhaustive case set
that would
         allow us to say things more definitively. E.g., I think this is a =
bit
         stronger than the draft can support in its current form: "The
case studies
         show that the Internet infrastructure, the combination of
architecture and
         protocols, facilitates freedom of association and assembly,
by allowing
         groups of people to converse, collaborate, exchange, and
build and maintain
         identities in both structural and occasional manners.=E2=80=9D I
guess we could try
         and think of more cases or just qualify this text a bit more
that "these
         cases heavily support the assertion that=E2=80=A6"
         -
            - The conclusion words this better, IMO (i.e., =E2=80=9Csome
            protocols=E2=80=9D): =E2=80=9Cwe established the relation betwe=
en some
protocols and the
            right tofreedom of assembly and association."
            - Section 8:
      -
         - I think this section is good, but I think it could benefit from
         a summary of what the cases showed to lend support that despite th=
e
         *capacity* of the Internet to support association, it=E2=80=99s
complicated and can
         be very fractured and increasingly proprietary.


On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 7:03 AM Avri <avri@apc.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Again apologies for the last minute comments.
>
> Abstract: saying that something establishes  =E2=80=98the causal link=E2=
=80=99 is a very
> strong claim.  Are we sure we want to make that strong a claim?  Can we
> really prove a causal link and can we prove that it is =E2=80=98the=E2=80=
=99 causal link. I
> personally do not see this draft as establishing any causal links, though
> it does point toward where they might be found.
>
> Introduction: =E2=80=9Cby investigating the exact impact of Internet prot=
ocols on
> specific human rights,=E2=80=9D again a very strong claim.  Can we ever r=
eally know
> the exact impact in some possible causal chain?  An even if we want to
> position a possible impact, we need more definitive illustrations and
> argumentation.
>
> There is an ambiguity between  allowing a right to prosper meaning a righ=
t
> is enabled, and what looks like a claim to a =E2=80=98right to prosper=E2=
=80=99. This is
> just a language nit, and I have avoided commenting on those for the most
> part, but this jumped out at me.
>
> 4. Methodology
>
> =E2=80=9Cbeen further validated through confirmatory research in the form=
 of
> Human Rights Protocol Reviews.=E2=80=9D I think this is the primary reaso=
n for the
> HRPC to do reviews, but I do not beleive we have established a methodolog=
y
> for doing those yet.  At this point some people are doing reviews and
> delivering them to responses that vary from happy acceptance to irritatio=
n
> to shock and awe. As far as I can tell we have not yet developed a
> systematic methodology for measuring the impact of the considerations in
> test reviews. Nor are we yet studying the reviews to see how they apply t=
he
> considerations.  We have not yet established a rigorous method for testin=
g
> our ethnographically established hypothesis.
>
> =E2=80=9CEven though the present work does not seek to create new guideli=
nes, the
> conclusions could inform the development of new guidelines such as is don=
e
> in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines.=E2=80=9D I think we need a tighter binding=
 between
> the discussion in this draft and anywhere in the guidelines where a
> consideration is said to be relevant to freedom of Expression/Assembly.
>
> Perhaps this is a personal academic prejudice, but while I think
> ethnography is extremely useful in hypothesis formation, I do not see how
> it can also serve to test and verify relevance and usefulness. Seems
> circular process to me. I think we need to find other methods for testing
> and measuring.
>
> 6.  Cases and examples
>
> Seems like a loose collection of internet features that may or may not
> have a positive or negative affect on expression & assembly.  I do not se=
e
> the persuasive argument that shows the possibility of a causal chain.
> Perhaps I am just not seeing it and others do, I accept.  Even in the two
> discussion sections, 7 & 8, the draft seems to jump from assertion to
> assertion without the rigor of argument that makes the conclusions
> inescapable.  I do not see the arguments that show why consideration in
> general or why specific considerations would be significant in enabling o=
r
> disabling the freedom of association and assembly, though the guidelines
> does make those sorts of claims.
>
> Re considerations:  While I understand that the authors do not want to
> introduce new considerations related to assembly and association - there
> may not be any new considerations or changes to existing considerations, =
I
> still think the draft needs to show a mapping between internet protocols
> and features and existing considerations.
>
> Note: I have not called them out, but the draft needs a spelling and
> grammatical scrubbing.
>
> Thanks for continued efforts on this draft.
>
> Avri
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>


--=20
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org]
1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I&#39;m just going to share my own comments now, with=
out having de-duped across Avri. Happy to clarify and let me know if I&#39;=
m being brain-dead anywhere:</div><div><br></div><div>

<span></span><ul><li><div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf=
-hrpc-association-02">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-associati=
on-02</a></div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div=
>Abstract:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>&quot;ca=
usal=E2=80=9D? That=E2=80=99s a pretty surprising claim to be making here=
=E2=80=A6 maybe I=E2=80=99m missing something?
</div></li><li><div>It feels like the first sentence should be last, or tha=
t a final sentence should be added specific to association, or the entire a=
bstract redrafted to focus more clearly on the specific right -- associatio=
n -- the document addresses.
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>Intro:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>Could be=
 edited to be a bit more concrete, and make the very good points it does ma=
ke more clearly.
</div></li><li><div>Define &quot;epistemic community&quot;
</div></li><li><div>Typo: &quot;As the Internet grows, decisions made about=
 its architecture=C2=A0are become more important&quot;
</div></li><li><div>I would probably change =E2=80=9Cestablished=E2=80=9D h=
ere to =E2=80=9Cdescribed=E2=80=9D: &quot;[RFC8280] established the relatio=
nship between human rights and Internet protocols.&quot;
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>Section 2:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>might be=
 good to have colons (=E2=80=9C:=E2=80=9D) after each term to distinguish t=
he term from the definition?
</div></li><li><div>can=E2=80=99t distributed systems have their behavior c=
oordinated by other things than message passing? (e.g., a global clock).
</div></li><li><div>The Infrastructure definition could benefit from being =
more concrete=E2=80=A6 I would think modifying a more standard definition f=
irst =E2=80=94 e.g., &quot;the basic physical and organizational structures=
 and facilities (e.g. buildings, roads, power supplies) needed for the oper=
ation of a society or enterprise.=E2=80=9D) =E2=80=94 and then extending it=
 would be better.
</div></li><li><div>Internet seems to be a cluster of definitions=E2=80=A6 =
is the reader supposed to pick one, consider them all, or?
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>4. Methodology:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>Again, I=
 would say =E2=80=9Cdescribe=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9Cestablish=E2=80=
=9D in &quot;an initial effort to establish the relationship between human =
rights and the Internet architecture&quot;
</div></li><li><div>again with the =E2=80=9Ccausal=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cit ul=
timately established either causal or deterministic relationships between a=
forementioned concepts through a series of case studies.&quot;
</div></li><li><div>this is uncited=E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m not sure this docu=
ment can claim anything further about 8280-like work without referencing so=
mething to show how individuals using 8280 have confirmed research in 8280:=
 &quot;further validated through confirmatory research in the form of Human=
 Rights Protocol Reviews&quot;
</div></li><li><div>This definitely needs elaboration within the document! =
I know what these words mean methodologically-speaking, but I=E2=80=99ve ne=
ver seen them composed like this and that may just be me being not familiar=
 with this strain of research (despite being a qualitative methods geek): =
=E2=80=9Cwe therefore aim to test the causal relationship through a case-se=
lection method, where we have adopted a purposive sampling approach, aimed =
at the typicality and paradigmatic nature of the cases [SeawrightGerring] t=
o help us achieve an attempt at an an ethnography of infrastructure [Star].=
&quot;
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>Section 5, Lit review:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>I=E2=80=
=99d like to believe this but it=E2=80=99s not immediately obvious that the=
 reference here supports the assertion made in this sentence: &quot;The IET=
F itself, defined as a &#39;open global community&#39; of network designers=
, operators, vendors, and researchers is also protected by freedom of assem=
bly and association [RFC3233].&quot;
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>Section 6, cases and examples:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>I really=
 really like the clarity of the analysis in 6.1.1 in the third paragraph wh=
ere each of the elements of free association are examined in that case=E2=
=80=A6 I see that other sections try to do this but aren=E2=80=99t nearly a=
s clear and lucid as this first case. It would be great to try and tighten =
up the other cases analyses here.
</div></li><li><div>wondering if the list at the end of each subsubsection =
might better be comma-delimited rather than dash-delimited.
</div></li><li><div>6.1.2: hmmm, WebRTC is basically a two-party protocol, =
while PERC is the multi-party conference mixing version=E2=80=A6 so maybe =
=E2=80=9Cmulti-party=E2=80=9D should be modified here: &quot;Multi-party vi=
deo conferencing protocols like WebRTC [RFC6176][RFC7118]...&quot;
</div></li><li><div>6.2, certainly people share =E2=80=9Cproprietary=E2=80=
=9D information via peer-to-peer tools and services=E2=80=A6 I think the po=
int here is that peers don=E2=80=99t themselves encumber downstream recipie=
nts with additional terms that would make it hard to share further (but tha=
t the object being shared may have other proprietary interests such as copy=
right=E2=80=A6). Not sure if we need to do anything here it was just a subt=
lety that might be confusing to some readers.
</div></li><li><div>6.2.2: this should be modified to reflect the new GIT W=
G and drafts? &quot;There have been two efforts to standardize the workflow=
 vis a vis these third party services, but these haven&#39;t come to fruiti=
on: [Wugh] [GithubIETF].&quot;
</div></li></ul></li><li><div>Section 7:=C2=A0Discussion: Establishing the =
relation
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>can we f=
ind a different way to say =E2=80=9Cjuridically=E2=80=9D?
</div></li><li><div>s/These preliminary finding suggest/These preliminary f=
indings suggest/
</div></li><li><div>I really like this section, although I think it is a bi=
t overclaiming in that it seems to imply an exhaustive case set that would =
allow us to say things more definitively. E.g., I think this is a bit stron=
ger than the draft can support in its current form: &quot;The case studies =
show that the Internet infrastructure, the combination of architecture and =
protocols, facilitates freedom of association and assembly, by allowing gro=
ups of people to converse, collaborate, exchange, and build and maintain id=
entities in both structural and occasional manners.=E2=80=9D I guess we cou=
ld try and think of more cases or just qualify this text a bit more that &q=
uot;these cases heavily support the assertion that=E2=80=A6&quot;
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>The conc=
lusion words this better, IMO (i.e., =E2=80=9Csome protocols=E2=80=9D): =E2=
=80=9Cwe established the relation between some protocols and the right tofr=
eedom of assembly and association.&quot;
</div></li></ul></li></ul></li><li><div>Section 8:
</div></li><li style=3D"list-style:outside none none"><ul><li><div>I think =
this section is good, but I think it could benefit from a summary of what t=
he cases showed to lend support that despite the *capacity* of the Internet=
 to support association, it=E2=80=99s complicated and can be very fractured=
 and increasingly proprietary.
</div></li></ul></li></ul></li></ul></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 7:03 AM A=
vri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:avri@apc.org">avri@apc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div id=3D"gmail-m=
_-7301677784354477405edo-message"><div></div>Hi,</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7=
301677784354477405edo-message"><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-73016777843544=
77405edo-message">Again apologies for the last minute comments.</div><div i=
d=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-message"><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_=
-7301677784354477405edo-message">Abstract: saying that something establishe=
s =C2=A0=E2=80=98the causal link=E2=80=99 is a very strong claim.=C2=A0 Are=
 we sure we want to make that strong a claim?=C2=A0 Can we really prove a c=
ausal link and can we prove that it is =E2=80=98the=E2=80=99 causal link. I=
 personally do not see this draft as establishing any causal links, though =
it does point toward where they might be found.</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-73=
01677784354477405edo-message"><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-730167778435447=
7405edo-message">Introduction: =E2=80=9C<span style=3D"background-color:rgb=
a(255,255,255,0)">by=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,2=
55,255,0)">investigating the exact impact of Internet protocols on specific
   human rights,=E2=80=9D again a very strong claim.=C2=A0 Can we ever real=
ly know the exact impact in some possible causal chain?=C2=A0 An even if we=
 want to position a possible impact, we need more definitive illustrations =
and argumentation.</span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-m=
essage"><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-message">There=
 is an ambiguity between =C2=A0allowing a right to prosper meaning a right =
is enabled, and what looks like a claim to a =E2=80=98right to prosper=E2=
=80=99. This is just a language nit, and I have avoided commenting on those=
 for the most part, but this jumped out at me.</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-730=
1677784354477405edo-message"><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477=
405edo-message">4. Methodology</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405=
edo-message"><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-message">=
=E2=80=9C<span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">been further =
validated through confirmatory research in the form=C2=A0</span><span style=
=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">of Human Rights Protocol Reviews.=
=E2=80=9D I think this is the primary reason for the HRPC to do reviews, bu=
t I do not beleive we have established a methodology for doing those yet.=
=C2=A0 At this point some people are doing reviews and delivering them to r=
esponses that vary from happy acceptance to irritation to shock and awe. As=
 far as I can tell we have not yet developed a systematic methodology for m=
easuring the impact of the considerations in test reviews. Nor are we yet s=
tudying the reviews to see how they apply the considerations.=C2=A0 We have=
 not yet established a rigorous method for testing our ethnographically est=
ablished hypothesis.=C2=A0</span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477=
405edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></=
span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-message">=E2=80=9C<sp=
an style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Even though the present w=
ork does not seek to create new=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color=
:rgba(255,255,255,0)">guidelines, the conclusions could inform the developm=
ent of new
   guidelines such as is done in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines.=E2=80=9D I thi=
nk we need a tighter binding between the discussion in this draft and anywh=
ere in the guidelines where a consideration is said to be relevant to freed=
om of Expression/Assembly.</span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477=
405edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></=
span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-message"><span style=
=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Perhaps this is a personal academ=
ic prejudice, but while I think ethnography is extremely useful in hypothes=
is formation, I do not see how it can also serve to test and verify relevan=
ce and usefulness. Seems circular process to me. I think we need to find ot=
her methods for testing and measuring.</span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301=
677784354477405edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,25=
5,0)"><br></span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-message">=
<span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">6.=C2=A0 Cases and exa=
mples=C2=A0<div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405028484F3-6BBE-4553-AD5D-8=
3C78840CE05"></div></span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-=
message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></=
div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-message"><span style=3D"back=
ground-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Seems like a loose collection of internet=
 features that may or may not have a positive or negative affect on express=
ion &amp; assembly.=C2=A0 I do not see the persuasive argument that shows t=
he possibility of a causal chain.=C2=A0 Perhaps I am just not seeing it and=
 others do, I accept.=C2=A0 Even in the two discussion sections, 7 &amp; 8,=
 the draft seems to jump from assertion to assertion without the rigor of a=
rgument that makes the conclusions inescapable.=C2=A0 I do not see the argu=
ments that show why consideration in general or why specific considerations=
 would be significant in enabling or disabling the freedom of association a=
nd assembly, though the guidelines does make those sorts of claims.</span><=
/div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-message"><span style=3D"bac=
kground-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-730=
1677784354477405edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,2=
55,0)">Re considerations: =C2=A0While I understand that the authors do not =
want to introduce new considerations related to assembly and association - =
there may not be any new considerations or changes to existing consideratio=
ns, I still think the draft needs to show a mapping between internet protoc=
ols and features and existing considerations.</span></div><div id=3D"gmail-=
m_-7301677784354477405edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255=
,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-me=
ssage"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Note: I have no=
t called them out, but the draft needs a spelling and grammatical scrubbing=
.</span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-message"><span sty=
le=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div id=3D"gma=
il-m_-7301677784354477405edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(=
255,255,255,0)">Thanks for continued efforts on this draft.</span></div><di=
v id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-message"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-73016777843=
54477405edo-message"><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">A=
vri</span></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-meta"></div><div=
 id=3D"gmail-m_-7301677784354477405edo-original"><div></div></div></div>___=
____________________________________________<br>
hrpc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">hrpc@irtf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Joseph Lorenzo =
Hall<br>Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy &amp; Technology [<a href=
=3D"https://www.cdt.org" target=3D"_blank">https://www.cdt.org</a>]<br>1401=
 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497<br>e: <a href=3D"mailto:joe@cdt.=
org" target=3D"_blank">joe@cdt.org</a>, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: <a href=3D"ht=
tps://josephhall.org/gpg-key" target=3D"_blank">https://josephhall.org/gpg-=
key</a><br>Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 =C2=A01607 5F86 6987 40A9 =
A871<br></div><div><br></div><div>Don&#39;t miss out! CDT&#39;s Tech Prom i=
s April 10, 2019, at The<br>Anthem. Please join us: <a href=3D"https://cdt.=
org/annual-dinner/" target=3D"_blank">https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/</a><br=
></div></div></div></div></div>

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Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
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Thanks for all the great reviews and comments. It is great to see a lot of new energy on this draft.

As mentioned, Gisela and I feel like we are not the best persons to integrate the proposed changes, so we would like to take a step back a lead authors and hope that others will step forward to take the lead to take this RG document further.

If there are no others who want to work as co-authors, perhaps the reviewers (and RG participants and others) could propose alternate text either in attached markdown document, or as pull requests on github ( https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/drafts/blob/master/draft-association.md )?

Thanks in advance,

Niels and Gisela

On 3/28/19 3:26 PM, Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote:
> I'm just going to share my own comments now, without having de-duped across Avri. Happy to clarify and let me know if I'm being brain-dead anywhere:
> 
>   *
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
>   *
>       o
>         Abstract:
>       o
>           +
>             "causal”? That’s a pretty surprising claim to be making here… maybe I’m missing something?
>           +
>             It feels like the first sentence should be last, or that a final sentence should be added specific to association, or the entire abstract redrafted to focus more clearly on the specific right -- association -- the document addresses. 
>       o
>         Intro:
>       o
>           +
>             Could be edited to be a bit more concrete, and make the very good points it does make more clearly.
>           +
>             Define "epistemic community"
>           +
>             Typo: "As the Internet grows, decisions made about its architecture are become more important"
>           +
>             I would probably change “established” here to “described”: "[RFC8280] established the relationship between human rights and Internet protocols." 
>       o
>         Section 2:
>       o
>           +
>             might be good to have colons (“:”) after each term to distinguish the term from the definition?
>           +
>             can’t distributed systems have their behavior coordinated by other things than message passing? (e.g., a global clock).
>           +
>             The Infrastructure definition could benefit from being more concrete… I would think modifying a more standard definition first — e.g., "the basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (e.g. buildings, roads, power supplies) needed for the operation of a society or enterprise.”) — and then extending it would be better.
>           +
>             Internet seems to be a cluster of definitions… is the reader supposed to pick one, consider them all, or? 
>       o
>         4. Methodology:
>       o
>           +
>             Again, I would say “describe” instead of “establish” in "an initial effort to establish the relationship between human rights and the Internet architecture"
>           +
>             again with the “causal”: “it ultimately established either causal or deterministic relationships between aforementioned concepts through a series of case studies."
>           +
>             this is uncited… I’m not sure this document can claim anything further about 8280-like work without referencing something to show how individuals using 8280 have confirmed research in 8280: "further validated through confirmatory research in the form of Human Rights Protocol Reviews"
>           +
>             This definitely needs elaboration within the document! I know what these words mean methodologically-speaking, but I’ve never seen them composed like this and that may just be me being not familiar with this strain of research (despite being a qualitative methods geek): “we therefore aim to test the causal relationship through a case-selection method, where we have adopted a purposive sampling approach, aimed at the typicality and paradigmatic nature of the cases [SeawrightGerring] to help us achieve an attempt at an an ethnography of infrastructure [Star]." 
>       o
>         Section 5, Lit review:
>       o
>           +
>             I’d like to believe this but it’s not immediately obvious that the reference here supports the assertion made in this sentence: "The IETF itself, defined as a 'open global community' of network designers, operators, vendors, and researchers is also protected by freedom of assembly and association [RFC3233]." 
>       o
>         Section 6, cases and examples:
>       o
>           +
>             I really really like the clarity of the analysis in 6.1.1 in the third paragraph where each of the elements of free association are examined in that case… I see that other sections try to do this but aren’t nearly as clear and lucid as this first case. It would be great to try and tighten up the other cases analyses here.
>           +
>             wondering if the list at the end of each subsubsection might better be comma-delimited rather than dash-delimited.
>           +
>             6.1.2: hmmm, WebRTC is basically a two-party protocol, while PERC is the multi-party conference mixing version… so maybe “multi-party” should be modified here: "Multi-party video conferencing protocols like WebRTC [RFC6176][RFC7118]..."
>           +
>             6.2, certainly people share “proprietary” information via peer-to-peer tools and services… I think the point here is that peers don’t themselves encumber downstream recipients with additional terms that would make it hard to share further (but that the object being shared may have other proprietary interests such as copyright…). Not sure if we need to do anything here it was just a subtlety that might be confusing to some readers.
>           +
>             6.2.2: this should be modified to reflect the new GIT WG and drafts? "There have been two efforts to standardize the workflow vis a vis these third party services, but these haven't come to fruition: [Wugh] [GithubIETF]." 
>       o
>         Section 7: Discussion: Establishing the relation
>       o
>           +
>             can we find a different way to say “juridically”?
>           +
>             s/These preliminary finding suggest/These preliminary findings suggest/
>           +
>             I really like this section, although I think it is a bit overclaiming in that it seems to imply an exhaustive case set that would allow us to say things more definitively. E.g., I think this is a bit stronger than the draft can support in its current form: "The case studies show that the Internet infrastructure, the combination of architecture and protocols, facilitates freedom of association and assembly, by allowing groups of people to converse, collaborate, exchange, and build and maintain identities in both structural and occasional manners.” I guess we could try and think of more cases or just qualify this text a bit more that "these cases heavily support the assertion that…"
>           +
>               #
>                 The conclusion words this better, IMO (i.e., “some protocols”): “we established the relation between some protocols and the right tofreedom of assembly and association." 
>       o
>         Section 8:
>       o
>           +
>             I think this section is good, but I think it could benefit from a summary of what the cases showed to lend support that despite the *capacity* of the Internet to support association, it’s complicated and can be very fractured and increasingly proprietary. 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 7:03 AM Avri <avri@apc.org <mailto:avri@apc.org>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi,
> 
>     Again apologies for the last minute comments.
> 
>     Abstract: saying that something establishes  ‘the causal link’ is a very strong claim.  Are we sure we want to make that strong a claim?  Can we really prove a causal link and can we prove that it is ‘the’ causal link. I personally do not see this draft as establishing any causal links, though it does point toward where they might be found.
> 
>     Introduction: “by investigating the exact impact of Internet protocols on specific human rights,” again a very strong claim.  Can we ever really know the exact impact in some possible causal chain?  An even if we want to position a possible impact, we need more definitive illustrations and argumentation.
> 
>     There is an ambiguity between  allowing a right to prosper meaning a right is enabled, and what looks like a claim to a ‘right to prosper’. This is just a language nit, and I have avoided commenting on those for the most part, but this jumped out at me.
> 
>     4. Methodology
> 
>     “been further validated through confirmatory research in the form of Human Rights Protocol Reviews.” I think this is the primary reason for the HRPC to do reviews, but I do not beleive we have established a methodology for doing those yet.  At this point some people are doing reviews and delivering them to responses that vary from happy acceptance to irritation to shock and awe. As far as I can tell we have not yet developed a systematic methodology for measuring the impact of the considerations in test reviews. Nor are we yet studying the reviews to see how they apply the considerations.  We have not yet established a rigorous method for testing our ethnographically established hypothesis. 
> 
>     “Even though the present work does not seek to create new guidelines, the conclusions could inform the development of new guidelines such as is done in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines.” I think we need a tighter binding between the discussion in this draft and anywhere in the guidelines where a consideration is said to be relevant to freedom of Expression/Assembly.
> 
>     Perhaps this is a personal academic prejudice, but while I think ethnography is extremely useful in hypothesis formation, I do not see how it can also serve to test and verify relevance and usefulness. Seems circular process to me. I think we need to find other methods for testing and measuring.
> 
>     6.  Cases and examples 
> 
>     Seems like a loose collection of internet features that may or may not have a positive or negative affect on expression & assembly.  I do not see the persuasive argument that shows the possibility of a causal chain.  Perhaps I am just not seeing it and others do, I accept.  Even in the two discussion sections, 7 & 8, the draft seems to jump from assertion to assertion without the rigor of argument that makes the conclusions inescapable.  I do not see the arguments that show why consideration in general or why specific considerations would be significant in enabling or disabling the freedom of association and assembly, though the guidelines does make those sorts of claims.
> 
>     Re considerations:  While I understand that the authors do not want to introduce new considerations related to assembly and association - there may not be any new considerations or changes to existing considerations, I still think the draft needs to show a mapping between internet protocols and features and existing considerations.
> 
>     Note: I have not called them out, but the draft needs a spelling and grammatical scrubbing..
> 
>     Thanks for continued efforts on this draft.
> 
>     Avri
>     _______________________________________________
>     hrpc mailing list
>     hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>     https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Joseph Lorenzo Hall
> Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org]
> 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
> e: joe@cdt.org <mailto:joe@cdt.org>, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
> Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10  1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871
> 
> Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The
> Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
> 

-- 
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
DATACTIVE Research Group
University of Amsterdam

PGP fingerprint	   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488  
                   643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3

--------------13599EF1AE1BEBD757DA5696
Content-Type: text/markdown;
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---
title: Freedom of Association on the Internet
abbrev: FoA
docname: draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
category: info

ipr: trust200902
area: IRTF
workgroup: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Research Group
keyword: Internet-Draft
stand_alone: yes
pi:
  rfcedstyle: yes
  toc: yes
  tocindent: yes
  sortrefs: yes
  symrefs: yes
  strict: yes
  comments: yes
  inline: yes
  text-list-symbols: -o*+

author:

-
       ins: N. ten Oever
       name: Niels ten Oever
       organization: University of Amsterdam
       email: mail@nielstenoever.net

-
       ins: G. Perez de Acha
       name: Gisela Perez de Acha
       organization: Derechos Digitales
       email: gisela@derechosdigitales.org

normative:

informative:

  RFC0001:
  RFC0155:
  RFC0791:
  RFC0903:
  RFC1211:
  RFC1287:
  RFC1771:
  RFC1930:
  RFC2810:
  RFC2812:
  RFC3233:
  RFC1958:
  RFC4033:
  RFC4084:
  RFC4271:
  RFC4880:
  RFC5246:
  RFC5694:
  RFC5751:
  RFC6176:
  RFC7118:
  RFC7194:
  RFC7754:
  RFC7858:
  RFC8280:
  RFC8484:

  UDHR:
    title: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
    date: 1948
    author:
      - org: United Nations General Assembly
    target: http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

  ICCPR:
    title: International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
    date: 1966
    author:
      - org: United Nations General Assembly
    target: http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx

  Tocqueville:
    title: Democracy in America
    date: 1840
    author:
      - ins: A. de Tocqueville
    target: http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/De_tocqueville_alexis/de=
mocracy_in_america_historical_critical_ed/democracy_in_america_vol_2.pdf =
p. 304

  HussainHoward:
    title: "What Best Explains Successful Protest Cascades? ICTs and the =
Fuzzy Causes of the Arab Spring"
    date: 2013
    author:
      - ins: M.M. Hussain
      - ins: P.N. Howard
    target: https://doi.org/10.1111/misr.12020
    seriesinfo: "Int Stud Rev (2013) 15 (1): 48-66."

  UNHRC:
    title: Report of the Special Rapporteur on the rights to freedom of p=
eaceful assembly and of association
    date: 2012
    author:
      - ins: Maina Kiai
    target: http://freeassembly.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/A-HRC-20-2=
7_en-annual-report-May-2012.pdf
    seriesinfo: A/HRC/20/27

  APC:
    title: Freedom of assembly and association online in India, Malaysia =
and Pakistan. Trends, challenges and recommendations.
    date: 2016
    author:
      - org: Association for Progressive Communications
      - ins: Gayathry Venkiteswaran
    target: https://www.apc.org/es/system/files/FOAA_online_IndiaMalaysia=
Pakistan.pdf

  Swire:
    title: "Social Networks, Privacy, and Freedom of Association: Data Em=
powerment vs. Data Protection"
    date: 2012
    author:
      - ins: Peter Swire
    target: https://ssrn.com/abstract=3D1989516 or http://dx.doi.org/10.2=
139/ssrn.1989516
    seriesinfo: "North Carolina Law Review (2012) 90 (1): 104."

  UNGA:
    title: Human rights defenders
    date: 2004
    author:
      - ins: Hina Jilani
    target: http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=3DA/59/401=
 para. 46
    seriesinfo: A/59/401

  HafnerandLyon:
    title: Where Wizards Stay Up Late. The Origins of the Internet
    date: 1998
    author:
      - ins: K. Hafnerand
      - ins: M. Lyon
    target: https://doi.org/10.1111/misr.12020
    seriesinfo: "First Touchstone Edition (1998): 93."

  Pensado:
    title: Student Activism. Utopian Dreams.
    date: 2012
    author:
      - ins: Jaime Pensado
    target: http://revista.drclas.harvard.edu/book/student-activism
    seriesinfo: "ReVista. Harvard Review of Latin America (2012)."

  Abbate:
    title: Inventing the Internet
    date: 2013
    author:
      - ins: Janet Abbate
    target: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/inventing-internet
    seriesinfo: "Cambridge: MIT Press (2013): 11."

  Melucci:
    title: The Process of Collective Identity
    date: 1995
    author:
      - ins: A. Melucci
    seriesinfo: Temple University Press, Philadelphia

  AckermannKargerZhang:
    title: "Mailing Lists: Why Are They Still Here, What=E2=80=99s Wrong =
With Them, and How Can We Fix Them?"
    date: 2017
    author:
      - ins: M. S. Ackerman
      - ins: D. R. Karger
      - ins: A. X. Zhang
    target: https://people.csail.mit.edu/axz/papers/mailinglists.pdf
    seriesinfo: "Mit. edu (2017): 1."

  Benkler:
    title: Peer Production and Cooperation
    date: 2009
    author:
      - ins: Y. Benkler
    target: http://www.benkler.org/Peer%20production%20and%20cooperation%=
2009.pdf
    #    seriesinfo: "M. Bauer &amp; M. Latzer (eds.), Handbook on the Ec=
onomics of the Internet, Cheltenham and Northampton, Edward Elgar."

  AndersonGuarnieri:
    title: "Fictitious Profiles and WebRTC's Privacy Leaks Used to Identi=
fy Iranian Activists"
    date: 2016
    author:
      - ins: C. Anderson
      - ins: C. Guarnieri
    target: https://iranthreats.github.io/resources/webrtc-deanonymizatio=
n/

  OSCE:
    title: Guidelines on Freedom of Peaceful Assembly
    date: 2010
    author:
      - org: OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights
    target: https://www.osce.org/odihr/73405?download=3Dtrue
    seriesinfo: page 24

  NelsonHedlun:
    title: "A Network of Peers: Models Through the History of the Interne=
t"
    date: 2001
    author:
      - ins: N. Minar
      - ins: M. Hedlun
    target: "http://library.uniteddiversity.coop/REconomy_Resource_Pack/M=
ore_Inspirational_Videos_and_Useful_Info/Peer_to_Peer-Harnessing_the_Powe=
r_of_Disruptive_Technologies.pdf"
    seriesinfo: "Peer to Peer: Harnessing the Power of Disruptive Technol=
ogies, ed: Andy Oram"

  Vu:
    title: "Peer-to-Peer Computing: Principles and Applications"
    date: 2010
    author:
      - ins: Vu, Quang Hieu
      - ins: Lupu, Mihai
      - ins: Ooi, Beng Chin
    target: "https://www.springer.com/cn/book/9783642035135"

  Star:
    title: The Ethnography of Infrastructure
    date: 1999
    author:
      - ins: S.L. Star
    target: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/00027649921955326=

    seriesinfo: American Behavioral Scientist, Volume 43 (3), 377-391.

  Schleuder:
    title: Schleuder - A gpg-enabled mailinglist with remailing-capabilit=
ies.
    date: 2017
    author:
      - org: Nadir
    target: https://schleuder.nadir.org/

  Crawford:
    title: "The WebRTC VPN =E2=80=9CBug=E2=80=9D and How to Fix"
    date: 2015
    author:
      - ins: D. Crawford
    target: https://www.bestvpn.com/the-webrtc-vpn-bug-and-how-to-fix-it/=


  RPZ:
    title: DNS Response Policy Zones (RPZ)
    date: 2017
    author:
       - ins: P. Vixie
       - ins: V. Schyver
    target: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-dns-rpz-00

  Wugh:
    title: Using Third Party Services for IETF Work
    date: 2017
    author:
       - ins: M. Nottingham
    target: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-wugh-servic=
es/

  GithubIETF:
    title: Using GitHub at the IETF
    date: 2017
    author:
       - ins: M. Thomson
       - ins: A. Atlas
    target:

  Troncosoetal:
    title: "Systematizing Decentralization and Privacy: Lessons from 15 Y=
ears of Research and Deployments"
    date: 2017
    author:
       - ins: C. Troncoso
       - ins: M. Isaakdis
       - ins: G. Danezis
       - ins: H. Halpin
    seriesinfo: "Proceedings on Privacy Enhancing Technologies ; 2017 (4)=
:307=E2=80=93329"
    target: https://www.petsymposium.org/2017/papers/issue4/paper87-2017-=
4-source.pdf

  StarRuhleder:
    title: "Steps toward an ecology of infrastructure: Design and access =
for large information spaces"
    date: 1996
    author:
       - ins: S.L. Star
       - ins: K. Ruhleder
    seriesinfo: "Information Systems Research 7 (1) (1996) 111=E2=80=9313=
4."

  Haas:
    title: "Introduction: epistemic communities and international policy =
coordination"
    date: 1992
    author:
       - ins: P.M. Haas
    seriesinfo:  "International Organization, special issue: Knowledge, P=
ower, and International Policy Coordination, Cambridge Journals. 46 (1): =
1=E2=80=9335."

  Mainwaringetal:
    title: "Infrastructures and Their Discontents: Implications for Ubico=
mp"
    date: 2004
    author:
       - ins: S.D. Mainwaring
       - ins: M.F. Chang
       - ins: K. Anderson
    seriesinfo: "DBLP Conference: Conference: UbiComp 2004: Ubiquitous Co=
mputing: 6th International Conference, Nottingham, UK, September 7-10, 20=
04. Proceedings"
    target: http://www.dourish.com/classes/readings/Mainwaring-Infrastruc=
ture.pdf

  Bowker:
    title: Information mythology and infrastructure
    date: 1994
    author:
       - ins: G. Bowker
    seriesinfo: "In: L. Bud (Ed.), Information Acumen: The Understanding =
and use of Knowledge in Modern Business,Routledge,London,1994,pp.231=E2=80=
=93247"

  Bloketal:
    title: Infrastructuring Environments
    date: 2016
    author:
       - ins: A. Blok
       - ins: M. Nakazora
       - ins: B.R. Winthereik
    seriesinfo: "Science as Culture 25:1, 1-22."

  PipekWulf:
    title: "Infrastructuring: Towards an Integrated Perspective on the De=
sign and Use of Information Technology"
    date: 2009
    author:
       - ins: V. Pipek
       - ins: W. Wolf
    seriesinfo: "Journal of the Association for Information Systems (10) =
5, pp. 306-332"

  Anderson:
    title: "The political voice of young citizens Educational conditions =
for political conversation =E2=80=93 school and social media"
    date: 2012
    author:
      - ins: E. Andersson
    seriesinfo: "Utbildning &amp; Demokrati: Tidskrift f=C3=B6r Didaktik =
och Utbildningspolitik, Volume 21, Number 1, 2012, pp. 97-119(23)"
    target: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/doaj/11026472/2012/0000=
0021/00000001/art00006

  Tufekci:
    title: "Twitter and Tear Gas: The Power and Fragility of Networked Pr=
otest"
    date: 2017
    author:
      - ins: Z. Tufekci
    target: https://www.twitterandteargas.org/

  Weiser:
    title: The Computer for the 21st Century
    date: 1991
    author:
      - ins: L M. Weiser
    seriesinfo: Scientific American Ubicomp Paper after Sci Am editing
    target: https://web.archive.org/web/20141022035044/http://www.ubiq.co=
m/hypertext/weiser/SciAmDraft3.html

  Sink:
    title: Version Control by Example
    date: 2011
    author:
      - ins: E. Sink
    target: http://ericsink.com/vcbe/

  Mosco:
     title: "The Digital Sublime: Myth, Power, and Cyberspace"
     date: 2005
     author:
      - ins: V. Mosco
     target: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/digital-sublime

  FiveEyes:
     title: "Five Eyes"
     date: 2018
     author:
      - ins: Wikipedia
     target: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

  SchengenRouting:
     title: "Schengen Routing"
     date: 2018
     author:
      - ins: Wikipedia
     target: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Routing

  SeawrightGerring:
     title: "Case Selection Techniques in Case Study Research: A Menu of =
Qualitative and Quantitative Options"
     date: 2008
     author:
      - ins: J. Seawright
      - ins: J. Gerring
     target: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/106591290731307=
7
     seriesinfo: "Political Research Quarterly, 61(2), 294=E2=80=93308."


--- abstract

This document establishes the causal link between the Internet architectu=
re and the ability of people to exercise their right to freedom of assemb=
ly and association online. The Internet increasingly mediates our lives, =
our relationships and our ability to exercise our human rights. As a foru=
m, it provides a global public space despite being built on predominantly=
 private infrastructure. Since Internet protocols play a central role in =
the management, development and use of the Internet, the relation between=
 protocols and the aforementioned rights should be analyzed and any adver=
se impacts should be mitigated.

--- middle


Introduction
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

    We shape our tools and, thereafter, our tools shape us.=E2=80=8A
         - John Culkin (1967)

The Internet is constantly shaping modern information societies by provid=
ing a socio-technical ordering. In other words, the Internet infrastructu=
re and architecture consist of social and technological arrangements {{St=
arRuhleder}}. Such ordering is not always apparent because infrastructure=
 is often taken for granted by those using it. It tends to hide itself in=
 the societal woodwork {{Mosco}}, or put otherwise: =E2=80=98The most pro=
found technologies are those that disappear' {{Weiser}}.

Infrastructure therefore is mostly known by an epistemic community of exp=
erts {{Haas}} and only gets recognized by the larger public when it fails=
=2E As the Internet grows, decisions made about its architecture are beco=
me more important. {{RFC8280}} established the relationship between human=
 rights and Internet protocols. Following the same methodology, we now se=
ek to uncover the relation between the right to assembly, association and=
 the Internet infrastructure.

One one hand, the right to freedom of assembly and association protects c=
ollective expression. Likewise, systems and protocols that enable communa=
l interactions between people and servers enable this right given that th=
e Internet itself was originally designed as "a medium of communication f=
or machines that share resources with each other as equals" {{NelsonHedlu=
n}}.

The current draft continues the work started in {{RFC8280}} by investigat=
ing the exact impact of Internet protocols on specific human rights, name=
ly the right to freedom of assembly and association, in order to mitigate=
 potential negative impacts.


Vocabulary used
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Architecture
: The design of a structure

Autonomous System (AS)
: Autonomous Systems are the unit of routing policy in the modern world o=
f exterior routing {{RFC1930}}.
: Within the Internet, an autonomous system (AS) is a collection of conne=
cted Internet Protocol (IP) routing prefixes under the control of one or =
more network operators on behalf of a single administrative entity or dom=
ain that presents a common, clearly defined routing policy to the Interne=
t {{RFC1930}}.
: The classic definition of an Autonomous System is a set of routers unde=
r a single technical administration, using an interior gateway protocol a=
nd common metrics to route packets within the AS, and using an exterior g=
ateway protocol to route packets to other ASs {{RFC1771}}.

Border Gateway Protocol (BGP)
: An inter-Autonomous System routing protocol {{RFC4271}}.

Connectivity
: The extent to which a device or network is able to reach other devices =
or networks to exchange data. The Internet is the tool for providing glob=
al connectivity {{RFC1958}}. Different types of connectivity are further =
specified in {{RFC4084}}. The combination of the end-to-end principle, in=
teroperability, distributed architecture, resilience, reliability and rob=
ustness are the enabling factors that result in connectivity to and on th=
e Internet.

Decentralization
: Implementation or deployment of standards, protocols or systems without=
 one single point of control.

Distributed system
: A system with multiple components that have their behavior co-ordinated=
 via message passing. These components are usually spatially separated an=
d communicate using a network, and may be managed by a single root of tru=
st or authority. {{Troncosoetal}}

Infrastructure
: Underlying basis or structure for a functioning society, organization o=
r community. Because infrastructure is a precondition for other activitie=
s it has a procedural, rather than static, nature due to its social and c=
ultural embeddedness {{PipekWulf}} {{Bloketal}}. This means that infrastr=
ucture is always relational: infrastructure always develops in relation t=
o something or someone {{Bowker}}.

Internet
: The Network of networks, that consists of Autonomous Systems that are c=
onnected through the Internet Protocol (IP).
: A persistent socio-technical system over which services are delivered {=
{Mainwaringetal}},
: A techno-social assemblage of devices, users, sensors, networks, router=
s, governance, administrators, operators and protocols
: An emergent-process-driven thing that is born from the collections of t=
he ASes that happen to be gathered together at any given time. The fact t=
hat they tend to interact at any given time means it is an emergent prope=
rty that happens because they use the protocols defined at IETF.

Research question
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

How does the architecture of the internet enable and/or inhibit the right=
 to freedom of assembly and association?

Methodology
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The point of departure of the present work is {{RFC8280}} - an initial ef=
fort to establish the relationship between human rights and the Internet =
architecture, specifically protocols and standards. As such, {{RFC8280}} =
was inductive and explorative in nature, and it ultimately established ei=
ther causal or deterministic relationships between aforementioned concept=
s through a series of case studies.=20

The methodology was based on process tracing, semi-structured interviews =
and quantitative and qualitative document analysis which has been further=
 validated through confirmatory research in the form of Human Rights Prot=
ocol Reviews. The causal relationship, proposed as a hypothesis in {{RFC8=
280}} says that there is an inherent relationship between protocols, the =
Internet architecture, and human rights. The guidelines in {{RFC8280}} de=
scribe a relationship between the right to freedom of assembly and associ=
ation and connectivity, security, censorship resistance, anonymity, pseud=
onymity, accessibility, decentralization, adaptability, and outcome trans=
parency.

Taking into consideration the international human rights framework regard=
ing freedom of assembly and association, the present document seeks to de=
epen the relationship between the Internet architecture, protocols, and s=
tandards without creating new guidelines. In that way, we continue the wo=
rk proposed in {{RFC8280}} and follow the primary aim of the Human Rights=
 Protocol Consideration Research Group, as laid out in its charter where =
one of the research aims is 'to expose the relation between protocols and=
 human rights, with a focus on the rights to freedom of expression and fr=
eedom of assembly'. Even though the present work does not seek to create =
new guidelines, the conclusions could inform the development of new guide=
lines such as is done in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines.

Given that our current research proposition is that "the Internet infrast=
ructure significantly impacts the ability of people to exercise the human=
 rights to freedom of association and assembly', we therefore aim to test=
 the causal relationship through a case-selection method, where we have a=
dopted a purposive sampling approach, aimed at the typicality and paradig=
matic nature of the cases {{SeawrightGerring}} to help us achieve an atte=
mpt at an an ethnography of infrastructure {{Star}}. Subsequently we anal=
yze the cases through the theoretical framework provided in the literatur=
e review and based on that provide recommendations based on the findings.=


Literature Review
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The right to freedom of assembly and association protects and enables col=
lective action and expression {{UDHR}} {{ICCPR}}. It's purpose is to ensu=
re that everyone in a society has the opportunity to express opinions the=
y hold in common with others. As such, it is a tool that facilitates dial=
ogue among citizens, as well as with political leaders or governments {{O=
SCE}}. In a democracy, causes and opinions are more widely heard when a g=
roup of people come together behind the same cause or issue {{Tocqueville=
}}.=20

In international law, the right to freedom of assembly and association pr=
otects any collective, gathered either permanently or temporarily for "pe=
aceful" purposes. It is important to underline the property of "freedom" =
because the right to freedom of association and assembly is voluntary and=
 uncoerced: anyone can join or leave a group of choice, which in turn mea=
ns one should not be forced to either join, stay or leave. What constitut=
es a definition of "peaceful" is outside the scope of the present documen=
t.

The difference between freedom of assembly and freedom of association is =
merely a gradual one: the former tends to have an informal and ephemeral =
nature, whereas the latter refers to established and permanent bodies wit=
h specific objectives. Nonetheless, both are protected to the same degree=
=2E

Where an assembly is an intentional and temporary gathering of a collecti=
ve in a private or public space for a specific purpose: demonstrations, i=
ndoor meetings, strikes, processions, rallies or even sits-in {{UNHRC}}; =
association has a more formal and established nature. It refers to a grou=
p of individuals or legal entities brought together in order to collectiv=
ely act, express, pursue or defend a field of common interests {{UNGA}}. =
Think about civil society organizations, clubs, cooperatives, NGOs, relig=
ious associations, political parties, trade unions or foundations.

Even if privacy and freedom of expression are the most discussed human ri=
ghts when it comes to the online world, the right to freedom of assembly =
and association is quintessential for the Internet. Online association an=
d assembly are the starting point of group to mobilization in modern demo=
cracies, and even more so where physical gatherings have been impossible =
or dangerous {{APC}}. Throughout the world -from the Arab Spring to Latin=
 American student movements and the #WomensMarch- the Internet has played=
 a crucial role by providing means for the fast dissemination of informat=
ion otherwise mediated by the press, or even forbidden by the government =
{{Pensado}}. According to Hussain and Howard the Internet helped to "buil=
d solidarity networks and identification of collective identities and goa=
ls, extend the range of local coverage to international broadcast network=
s" and as platform for contestation for "the future of civil society and =
information infrastructure" {{HussainHoward}}.

The IETF itself, defined as a 'open global community' of network designer=
s, operators, vendors, and researchers is also protected by freedom of as=
sembly and association {{RFC3233}}. Discussions, comments and consensus a=
round RFCs are possible because of the collective expression that freedom=
 of association and assembly allow. The very word =E2=80=9Cprotocol=E2=80=
=9D found its way into the language of computer networking based on the n=
eed for collective agreement among network users {{HafnerandLyon}}.

We are aware that some of the following examples go beyond the use of Int=
ernet protocols and flow over into the application layer or examples in t=
he offline world whereas the purpose of the current document is to break =
down the relationship between Internet protocols and the right to freedom=
 of assembly and association. Nonetheless, given that protocols are a par=
t of the socio-technical ordering of reality, we do recognize that in som=
e cases the line between them and applications, implementations, policies=
 and offline realities are often blurred and hard -if not impossible- to =
differentiate.


Cases and examples
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

As the Internet mediates collective action and collaboration, it impacts =
on freedom of association and assembly. To answer our research question r=
egarding how internet architecture enable and/or inhibits such human righ=
t, we researched several independent and typical cases related to protoco=
ls that have been either adopted by the IETF, or are widely used on the I=
nternet. Our goal is to figure out whether they facilitate freedom of ass=
embly and association, or whether they inhibit it through their design or=
 implementation. We also indicate, per case, the interrelation with issue=
s in {{RFC8280}}.

## Conversing

An interactive conversation between two or more people forms the basis to=
 organize and associate. According to Anderson "the relationship between =
political conversation and engagement in the democratic process is strong=
=2E" {{Anderson}}. A conversation is inherently of social nature. Therefo=
re, by these definitions the core of the "political" is essentially assem=
bly or association: a basis for the development of social cohesion in soc=
iety.

### Mailing Lists

Since the beginning of the Internet mailing lists have been a key site of=
 assembly and association {{RFC0155}} {{RFC1211}}. In fact, mailing lists=
 were one of the Internet's first functionalities {{HafnerandLyon}}.

In 1971, four years after the invention of email, the first mailing list =
was created to talk about the idea of using Arpanet for discussion. What =
had initially propelled the Arpanet project forward as a resource sharing=
 platform was gradually replaced by the idea of a network as a means of b=
ringing people together {{Abbate}}. More than 45 years after, mailing lis=
ts are pervasive and help communities to engage, have discussions, share =
information, ask questions, and build ties. Even as social media and disc=
ussion forums grow, mailing lists continue to be widely used {{AckermannK=
argerZhang}} and are still a crucial tool to organise groups and individu=
als around themes and causes {{APC}}.

Mailing lists' pervasive use are partly explained because they allow for =
"free" association: people subscribe (join) and unsubscribe (leave) as th=
ey please. Mailing lists also allow for association of specific groups on=
 closed lists. Furthermore, the archival function of mailinglists allows =
for posterior accountability and analysis. The downsides of mailinglists =
are similar to the ones generally associated with e-mail, except that end=
-to-end encryption such as OpenPGP {{RFC4880}} and S/MIME {{RFC5751}} are=
 not possible because the final recipients are not known. There have been=
 experimental solutions to address this issue such as Schleuder {{Schleud=
er}}, but this has not been standardized or widely deployed.

This case relates to the following considerations in {{RFC8280}}:
	- Security
	- Privacy
	- Decentralization
	- Censorship Resistance
	- Open Standards
	- Confidentiality

### Multi-party video conferencing

Multi-party video conferencing protocols like WebRTC {{RFC6176}} {{RFC711=
8}} allow for robust, bandwidth-adaptive, wideband and super-wideband vid=
eo and audio discussions in groups. 'The WebRTC protocol was designed to =
enable responsive real-time communications over the Internet, and is inst=
rumental in allowing streaming video and conferencing applications to run=
 in the browser. In order to easily facilitate direct connections between=
 computers (bypassing the need for a central server to act as a gatekeepe=
r), WebRTC provides functionality to automatically collect the local and =
public IP addresses of Internet users (ICE or STUN). These functions do n=
ot require consent from the user, and can be instantiated by sites that a=
 user visits without their awareness. The potential privacy implications =
of this aspect of WebRTC are well documented, and certain browsers have p=
rovided options to limit its behavior.' {{AndersonGuarnieri}}.

Even though some multi-party video conferencing tools facilitate freedom =
of assembly and association, their own configuration might might pose con=
crete risks for those who use them. One the one hand WebRTC is providing =
resilient channels of communications, but on the other hand it also expos=
es information about those who are using the tool which might lead to inc=
reased surveillance, identification and the consequences that might be de=
rived from that. This is especially concerning because the usage of a VPN=
 does not protect against the exposure of IP addresses {{Crawford}}.

The risk of surveillance is also true in an offline space, but this is ge=
nerally easy to analyze for the end-user. Security and privacy expectatio=
ns of the end-user could be either improved or made explicit. This in tur=
n would result in a more secure and/or private exercise of the right to f=
reedom of assembly or association.

This case relates to the following considerations in {{RFC8280}}:
	- Security
	- Privacy
	- Decentralization
	- Censorship Resistance
	- Open Standards
	- Anonymity
	- Confidentiality

### Internet Relay Chat

Internet Relay Chat (IRC) is an application layer protocol that enables c=
ommunication in the form of text through a client/server networking model=
 {{RFC2810}}. In other words, a chat service. IRC clients are computer pr=
ograms that a user can install on their system. These clients communicate=
 with chat servers to transfer messages to other clients.

For order to be kept within the IRC network, special classes of users bec=
ome "operators" and are allowed to perform general maintenance functions =
on the network: basic network tasks such as disconnecting (temporary or p=
ermanently) and reconnecting servers as needed {{RFC2812}}. One of the mo=
st controversial power of operators is the ability to remove a user from =
the connected network by 'force', i.e., operators are able to close the c=
onnection between any client and server {{RFC2812}}.

IRC servers may deploy different policies for the ability of users to cre=
ate their own channels or 'rooms', and for the delegation of 'operator'-r=
ights in such spaces. Some IRC servers support SSL/TLS connections for se=
curity purposes {{RFC7194}} which helps stop the use of packet sniffer pr=
ograms to obtain the passwords of IRC users, but has little use beyond th=
is scope due to the public nature of IRC channels. TLS connections requir=
e both client and server support (that may require the user to install TL=
S binaries and IRC client specific patches or modules on their computers)=
=2E Some networks also use TLS for server to server connections, and prov=
ide a special channel flag (such as +S) to only allow TLS-connected users=
 on the channel, while disallowing operator identification in clear text,=
 to better utilize the advantages that TLS provides.

This case relates to the following considerations in {{RFC8280}}:
	- Security
	- Privacy
	- Censorship Resistance

## Peer-to-peer networks and systems

At the organizational level, peer production is one of the most relevant =
innovations from Internet mediated social practices. According to {{Benkl=
er}} these networks imply 'open collaborative innovation and creation, pe=
rformed by diverse, decentralized groups organized principally by neither=
 price signals nor organizational hierarchy, harnessing heterogeneous mot=
ivations, and governed and managed based on principles other than the res=
idual authority of ownership implemented through contract.' {{Benkler}}.

In his book The Wealth of Networks, Benkler significantly expands on his =
definition of commons-based peer production. In his view, what distinguis=
hes commons-based production is that it doesn't rely upon or propagate pr=
oprietary knowledge: "The inputs and outputs of the process are shared, f=
reely or conditionally, in an institutional form that leaves them equally=
 available for all to use as they choose at their individual discretion."=
 {{Benkler}} To ensure that the knowledge generated is available for free=
 use, commons-based projects are often shared under an open license.

### Peer-to-peer system architectures

Peer-to-peer (P2P) is essentially a model of how people interact in real =
life because "we deal directly with one another whenever we wish to" {{Vu=
}}. Usually if we need something we ask our peers, who in turn refer us t=
o other peers. In this sense, the ideal definition of P2P is that "nodes =
are able to directly exchange resources and services between themselves w=
ithout the need for centralized servers" where each participating node ty=
pically acts both as a server and as a client {{Vu}}. RFC 5694 has define=
d it as peers or nodes that should be able to communicate directly betwee=
n themselves without passing intermediaries, and that the system should b=
e self-organizing and have decentralized control {{RFC5694}}. With this i=
n mind, the ultimate model of P2P is a completely decentralized system, w=
hich is more resistant to speech regulation, immune to single points of f=
ailure and has a higher performance and scalability. Nonetheless, in prac=
tice some P2P systems are supported by centralized servers and some other=
s have hybrid models where nodes are organized into two layers: the upper=
 tier servers and the lower tier common nodes {{Vu}}.

Since the ARPANET project, the original idea behind the Internet was conc=
eived as what we would now call a peer-to-peer system {{RFC0001}}. Over t=
ime it has increasingly shifted towards a client/server model with "milli=
ons of consumer clients communicating with a relatively privileged set of=
 servers" {{NelsonHedlun}}.

Whether for resource sharing or data sharing, P2P systems are enabling fr=
eedom of assembly and association. Not only do they allow for effective d=
issemination of information, but they leverage computing resources by dim=
inishing costs allowing for the formation of open collectives at the netw=
ork level. At the same time, in completely decentralized systems the node=
s are autonomous and can join or leave the network as they want -a charac=
teristic that makes the system unpredictable: a resource might be only so=
metimes available, and some other resources might be missing or incomplet=
e {{Vu}}. Lack of information might in turn makes association or assembly=
 more difficult.

Additionally, when architecturally assessing the role of P2P systems we c=
ould say that: "the main advantage of centralized P2P systems is that the=
y are able to provide a quick and reliable resource locating. Their limit=
ation, however, is that the scalability of the systems is affected by the=
 use of servers. While decentralized P2P systems are better than centrali=
zed P2P systems in this aspect, they require a longer time in resource lo=
cating. As a result, hybrid P2P systems have been introduced to take adva=
ntage of both centralized and decentralized architectures. Basically, to =
maintain the scalability, similar to decentralized P2P systems, there are=
 no servers in hybrid P2P systems. However, peer nodes that are more powe=
rful than others can be selected to act as servers to serve others. These=
 nodes are often called super peers. In this way, resource locating can b=
e done by both decentralized search techniques and centralized search tec=
hniques (asking super peers), and hence the systems benefit from the sear=
ch techniques of centralized P2P systems." {{Vu}}

This case relates to the following considerations in {{RFC8280}}:
	- Security
	- Privacy
	- Decentralization
	- Censorship Resistance
	- Open Standards
	- Anonymity
	- Heterogeneity Support
	- Integrity
	- Authenticity
	- Adaptability

### Version control

Ever since developers needed to collaboratively write, maintain and discu=
ss large code basis for the Internet there have been different approaches=
 of doing so. The easiest approach has been discussing code through maili=
ng lists even though this has proven to be hard when maintaining the most=
 recent versions, which is why versi=C3=B3n control systems ultimately ma=
ke sense.

A version control system is a piece of software that enables developers o=
n a software team to work together and also archive a complete history of=
 their work {{Sink}}. This allows teams to be working simultaneously on u=
pdated versions. According to Sink, broadly speaking, the history of vers=
ion control tools can be divided into three generations. In the first one=
, concurrent development meant that only one person could be working on a=
 file at a time. The second generation tools permit simultaneous modifica=
tions as long as users merge the current revisions into their work before=
 they are allowed to commit. The third generation tools allow merge and c=
ommit to be separated {{Sink}}.

Interestingly no version control system has ever been standardized in the=
 IETF whereas the version control systems like Subversion and Git are wid=
ely used within the community and working groups. There has been a spirit=
ed discussion on whether working groups should use centralized forms of t=
he Git protocol, such as those offered by Gitlab or Github. Proponents ar=
gue that this simplifies the workflow and allows for more transparency. O=
pponents argue that the reliance on a centralized service which is not me=
rely using the Git protocol but also uses non-standardized options like a=
n Issue-Tracker, makes the process less transparent and reliant on a thir=
d party.

The IETF has not made a decision on the use of centralized instances of G=
it, such as Github or Gitlab. There have been two efforts to standardize =
the workflow vis a vis these third party services, but these haven't come=
 to fruition: {{Wugh}} {{GithubIETF}}.

This case relates to the following considerations in {{RFC8280}}:
	- Security
	- Decentralization
	- Open Standards
	- Heterogeneity Support
	- Integrity
	- Authenticity
	- Adaptability

## Grouping together (identities)

Collective identities are also protected by freedom of association and as=
sembly. According to Melucci these are 'shared definitions produced by se=
veral interacting individuals who are concerned with the orientation of t=
heir action as well as the field of opportunities and constraints in whic=
h their action takes place.' {{Melucci}} In this sense, assemblies and as=
sociations are an important base in the maintenance and development of cu=
lture, as well as preservation of minority identities {{OSCE}}.

### DNS

Domain names allow hosts to be identified by human parsable information. =
Whereas an IP address might not be the expression of an identity, a domai=
n name can be and often is. The grouping of certain identities under spec=
ific domains or even Top Level Domains are risky: connecting an identity =
to a hierarchically structured identifier systems creates a central attac=
k surface which allows for an easier surveillance of the services running=
 on the domain, domain based censorship {{RFC7754}}, or impersonation of =
the domain through DNS cache poisoning. The use of a centralized authorit=
y always makes censorship through a registry or registrar possible, as we=
ll as by using a fake resolver or using proposed standards such as DNS Re=
sponse Policy Zones {{RPZ}}. Several technologies have been developed in =
the IETF to mitigate these risks such as DNS over TLS {{RFC7858}}, DNSSEC=
 {{RFC4033}}, DNS over HTTPS {{RFC8484}}. When these mitigations are impl=
emented, censorship will not be made impossible but it will be made visib=
le.=20

The structuring of DNS as a hierarchical authority structure also brings =
about a specific characteristic, namely the possibility of centralized po=
licy making vis-=C3=A1-vis the management and operation of Top Level Doma=
ins, which is what happens partly at ICANN. The impact of ICANN processes=
 on human rights will not be discussed here.

This case relates to the following considerations in {{RFC8280}}:
	- Security
	- Privacy
	- Decentralization
	- Censorship Resistance
	- Anonymity
	- Heterogeneity Support
	- Integrity
	- Authenticity
	- Adaptability
	- Outcome Transparency

### Autonomous Systems

In order for edge-users to connect to the Internet, they need to be conne=
cted to an Autonomous System (AS) which, in turn, has peering or transit =
relations with other AS'es. This means that in the process of accessing t=
he Internet, edge-users need to accept the policies and practices of the =
intermediary that provides them access to the other networks. In other wo=
rds, for users to be able to join the 'network of networks', they always =
need to connect through an intermediary.

While accessing the Internet through an intermediary, the user is forced =
to accept the policies, practices and principles of a network. This could=
 impede the rights of the edge-user, depending on the implemented policie=
s and practices on the network and how (if at all) they are communicated =
to them. For example: filtering, blocking, extensive logging, slowing dow=
n connection or specific services, or other invasive practices that are n=
ot clearly communicated to the user.

In practice, the user must accept policies of ASes he has no relationship=
 with, and didn't choose. For instance, there is no way to direct the pac=
kets to avoid the Five Eyes, not even to know after the fact where the pa=
cket went. {{FiveEyes}} {{SchengenRouting}} (Traceroutes give you an idea=
 but the path may change before and after the traceroute.) Given that it =
is not trivial for an edge-user to operate an AS and engage in peering re=
lation with other ASes, there might not be  another way for the edge-user=
 to connect to the network of networks. In this case, users are forced in=
to accepting the policies of a specific network. Such design, combined wi=
th the increased importance of the Internet to make use of basic services=
, forces edge-users to associate with a specific network without consenti=
ng -or even knowing- the policies of the network.

Additionally, it can be noted that there is no standard and deployed way =
for the edge-user to choose the routes her packets will go through. {{RFC=
0791}} section 3.1 standardized "source routing" and "record route" but n=
either were deployed, mainly because of serious security issues.

This case relates to the following considerations in {{RFC8280}}:
	- Security
	- Privacy
	- Decentralization
	- Censorship Resistance
	- Anonymity
	- Heterogeneity Support
	- Integrity
	- Authenticity
	- Adaptability
	- Outcome Transparency

Discussion: Establishing the relation
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The case studies show that the Internet infrastructure, the combination o=
f architecture and protocols, facilitates freedom of association and asse=
mbly, by allowing groups of people to converse, collaborate, exchange, an=
d build and maintain identities in both structural and occasional manners=
=2E The structural forms of group activities are more related to freedom =
of association, whereas freedom of assembly often has a more incidental n=
ature. The difference between the two, as mentioned, is a gradual one. Th=
is is equally true to the infrastructural mediations of these rights.

Whereas we established that the Internet infrastructure facilitates freed=
om of association and assembly, by its very technical and material nature=
, it both creates and limits the spaces for it. This is an interesting te=
nsion because juridically only lawful limitations to the rights are allow=
ed, and even then only if they are necessary, and proportionate. This exp=
oses legal implications of the characteristics of the Internet infrastruc=
ture.

These preliminary finding suggest that the properties and characteristic =
through which the Internet infrastructure enables and inhibits  freedom o=
f assemblies and association should also be analyzed from a legal lens. T=
he case studies have pointed out several caveats in implementations, that=
 might not necessarily be understood by people while exercising their rig=
ht to association of assembly, and which thus should either be mitigated,=
 or at least, be communicated to the rights holders.

Discussion: Protocols and Platforms
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Whereas the Internet is a network of networks, and can therefore be under=
stood as an assembly, applications on top of the Internet do not necessar=
ily inherit the same structure. Quite the opposite, the Internet  increas=
ingly becomes a vehicle for commercial, proprietary and non-interoperable=
 platforms. This lack of interoperation is harming the ability of people =
to set or negotiate their own terms on which they would like to assemble =
or associate, or host their own interoperating services.=20

Even though the Internet has always allowed for (partially) closed-off ne=
tworks, the current trend shows the rise of a small number of very large =
non-interoperable platforms. Chat has moved from XMPP and IRC to Facebook=
 Messenger, Whatsapp and WeChat and there has been a strong rise of socia=
l media networks with large numbers of users, such as Facebook, Twitter a=
nd Instagram. A similar trend can be found among e-mail providers, with t=
he significant difference that e-mail is interoperable.

Often these non-interoperable platforms are built on open-protocols but d=
o not allow for inter-operability or data-portability. In the case of lar=
ge private platforms, this in turn leads to strong network externalities =
also know as a network effect; because the users are there, users will be=
 there. Even though social-media platforms have enabled groups to associa=
te, they have also led to a 'tactical freeze' because of the inability to=
 change the platforms {{Tufekci}}.=20

Whereas these networks are a ready-to-hand networked public sphere, they =
do not allow their inhabitants to change or fully understand their workin=
gs. In a near future, this could potentially impact infrastructure itself=
 and the distributed nature of the Internet {{RFC1287}}.=20

Conclusions
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Communities, collaboration and joint action lie at the heart of the Inter=
net. Even at at linguistical level, the words "networks=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=
=9Cassociations=E2=80=9D are close synonyms. Both interconnected groups a=
nd assemblies of people depend on =E2=80=9Clinks=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cre=
lationships=E2=80=9D {{Swire}}. Taking legal definitions given in interna=
tional human rights law jurisprudence, we could assert that the right to =
freedom of assembly and association protect collective expression. These =
rights protect any collective, gathered either permanently or temporarily=
 for "peaceful" purposes. It is voluntary and uncoerced.

Given that the Internet itself was originally designed as a medium of com=
munication for machines that share resources with each other as equals {{=
RFC0903}}, the Internet is now one of the most basic infrastructures for =
the right to freedom of assembly and association. Since Internet protocol=
s and the Internet architecture play a central role in the management, de=
velopment and use of the Internet, we established the relation between so=
me protocols and the right to freedom of assembly and association.

After reviewing several typical representative cases, we can conclude tha=
t the way in which infrastructure is designed and implemented impacts peo=
ple's ability to exercise their freedom of assembly and association. This=
 is because different technical designs come with different properties an=
d characteristics. These properties and characteristics on the one hand e=
nable people to assemble and associate, but on the other hand also adds l=
imiting, or even potentially endangering, characteristics. More often tha=
n not, this depends on the context. A clearly identified group for open c=
ommunications, where messages are sent in cleartext and where peoples per=
sistent identities are viisble, can help to faciliate an assembly and bui=
ld trust, but in other context the same configuration could pose a signif=
icant danger. Endangering characteristics should be mitigated, or at leas=
t clearly communicated to the users of these technologies.=20

Lastly, the increasing shift towards closed and non-interoperable platfor=
ms in chat and social media networks have a significant impact on the dis=
tributed and open nature of the Internet. Often these non-interoperable p=
latforms are built on open-protocols but do not allow for inter-operabili=
ty or data-portability. The use of social-media platforms has enabled gro=
ups to associate, but is has also rendered users unable to change platfor=
ms, therefore leading to a sort of "forced association" that inhibits peo=
ple to fully exercise their freedom of assembly and association.=20

Acknowledgements
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

- Fred Baker, Jefsey, and Andrew Sullivan for work on Internet definition=
s.

- Stephane Bortzmeyer for several concrete text suggestions that found th=
eir way in this document (such as the AS filtering example).

- Mark Perkins and Gurshabad for finding a lot of typos.

- Gurshabad Grover and an anonymous reviewer for a full review.

- The hrpc mailinglist at large for a very constructive discussion on a h=
ard topic.

Security Considerations
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

As this draft concerns a research document, there are no security conside=
rations.


IANA Considerations
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

This document has no actions for IANA.

Research Group Information
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
The discussion list for the IRTF Human Rights Protocol Considerations Res=
earch Group is located at the e-mail address <hrpc@ietf.org>. Information=
 on the group and information on how to subscribe to the list is at
<https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc>

Archives of the list can be found at:
<https://www.irtf.org/mail-archive/web/hrpc/current/index.html>

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From: Gisela Perez de Acha Chavez <gisela@berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 14:35:11 -0600
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To: Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
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Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
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Hi Niels, thanks for this email. And I also want to thank everyone for
being open to have an emotional discussion in this technical space.
We are after all, learning in every possible way, as well as welcoming new
members!!

Have a very happy IETF, and I'll be commenting on new drafts very soon.

Cheers,

---
Gisela P=C3=A9rez de Acha
Human Rights Lawyer | Multimedia Journalist

On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 11:37 AM Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
wrote:

> Thanks for all the great reviews and comments. It is great to see a lot o=
f
> new energy on this draft.
>
> As mentioned, Gisela and I feel like we are not the best persons to
> integrate the proposed changes, so we would like to take a step back a le=
ad
> authors and hope that others will step forward to take the lead to take
> this RG document further.
>
> If there are no others who want to work as co-authors, perhaps the
> reviewers (and RG participants and others) could propose alternate text
> either in attached markdown document, or as pull requests on github (
> https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/drafts/blob/master/draft-association.md )?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Niels and Gisela
>
> On 3/28/19 3:26 PM, Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote:
> > I'm just going to share my own comments now, without having de-duped
> across Avri. Happy to clarify and let me know if I'm being brain-dead
> anywhere:
> >
> >   *
> >     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
> >   *
> >       o
> >         Abstract:
> >       o
> >           +
> >             "causal=E2=80=9D? That=E2=80=99s a pretty surprising claim =
to be making
> here=E2=80=A6 maybe I=E2=80=99m missing something?
> >           +
> >             It feels like the first sentence should be last, or that a
> final sentence should be added specific to association, or the entire
> abstract redrafted to focus more clearly on the specific right --
> association -- the document addresses.
> >       o
> >         Intro:
> >       o
> >           +
> >             Could be edited to be a bit more concrete, and make the ver=
y
> good points it does make more clearly.
> >           +
> >             Define "epistemic community"
> >           +
> >             Typo: "As the Internet grows, decisions made about its
> architecture are become more important"
> >           +
> >             I would probably change =E2=80=9Cestablished=E2=80=9D here =
to =E2=80=9Cdescribed=E2=80=9D:
> "[RFC8280] established the relationship between human rights and Internet
> protocols."
> >       o
> >         Section 2:
> >       o
> >           +
> >             might be good to have colons (=E2=80=9C:=E2=80=9D) after ea=
ch term to
> distinguish the term from the definition?
> >           +
> >             can=E2=80=99t distributed systems have their behavior coord=
inated by
> other things than message passing? (e.g., a global clock).
> >           +
> >             The Infrastructure definition could benefit from being more
> concrete=E2=80=A6 I would think modifying a more standard definition firs=
t =E2=80=94 e.g.,
> "the basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (e.g.
> buildings, roads, power supplies) needed for the operation of a society o=
r
> enterprise.=E2=80=9D) =E2=80=94 and then extending it would be better.
> >           +
> >             Internet seems to be a cluster of definitions=E2=80=A6 is t=
he reader
> supposed to pick one, consider them all, or?
> >       o
> >         4. Methodology:
> >       o
> >           +
> >             Again, I would say =E2=80=9Cdescribe=E2=80=9D instead of =
=E2=80=9Cestablish=E2=80=9D in "an
> initial effort to establish the relationship between human rights and the
> Internet architecture"
> >           +
> >             again with the =E2=80=9Ccausal=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cit ultima=
tely established either
> causal or deterministic relationships between aforementioned concepts
> through a series of case studies."
> >           +
> >             this is uncited=E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m not sure this document=
 can claim
> anything further about 8280-like work without referencing something to sh=
ow
> how individuals using 8280 have confirmed research in 8280: "further
> validated through confirmatory research in the form of Human Rights
> Protocol Reviews"
> >           +
> >             This definitely needs elaboration within the document! I
> know what these words mean methodologically-speaking, but I=E2=80=99ve ne=
ver seen
> them composed like this and that may just be me being not familiar with
> this strain of research (despite being a qualitative methods geek): =E2=
=80=9Cwe
> therefore aim to test the causal relationship through a case-selection
> method, where we have adopted a purposive sampling approach, aimed at the
> typicality and paradigmatic nature of the cases [SeawrightGerring] to hel=
p
> us achieve an attempt at an an ethnography of infrastructure [Star]."
> >       o
> >         Section 5, Lit review:
> >       o
> >           +
> >             I=E2=80=99d like to believe this but it=E2=80=99s not immed=
iately obvious
> that the reference here supports the assertion made in this sentence: "Th=
e
> IETF itself, defined as a 'open global community' of network designers,
> operators, vendors, and researchers is also protected by freedom of
> assembly and association [RFC3233]."
> >       o
> >         Section 6, cases and examples:
> >       o
> >           +
> >             I really really like the clarity of the analysis in 6.1.1 i=
n
> the third paragraph where each of the elements of free association are
> examined in that case=E2=80=A6 I see that other sections try to do this b=
ut aren=E2=80=99t
> nearly as clear and lucid as this first case. It would be great to try an=
d
> tighten up the other cases analyses here.
> >           +
> >             wondering if the list at the end of each subsubsection migh=
t
> better be comma-delimited rather than dash-delimited.
> >           +
> >             6.1.2: hmmm, WebRTC is basically a two-party protocol, whil=
e
> PERC is the multi-party conference mixing version=E2=80=A6 so maybe =E2=
=80=9Cmulti-party=E2=80=9D
> should be modified here: "Multi-party video conferencing protocols like
> WebRTC [RFC6176][RFC7118]..."
> >           +
> >             6.2, certainly people share =E2=80=9Cproprietary=E2=80=9D i=
nformation via
> peer-to-peer tools and services=E2=80=A6 I think the point here is that p=
eers don=E2=80=99t
> themselves encumber downstream recipients with additional terms that woul=
d
> make it hard to share further (but that the object being shared may have
> other proprietary interests such as copyright=E2=80=A6). Not sure if we n=
eed to do
> anything here it was just a subtlety that might be confusing to some
> readers.
> >           +
> >             6.2.2: this should be modified to reflect the new GIT WG an=
d
> drafts? "There have been two efforts to standardize the workflow vis a vi=
s
> these third party services, but these haven't come to fruition: [Wugh]
> [GithubIETF]."
> >       o
> >         Section 7: Discussion: Establishing the relation
> >       o
> >           +
> >             can we find a different way to say =E2=80=9Cjuridically=E2=
=80=9D?
> >           +
> >             s/These preliminary finding suggest/These preliminary
> findings suggest/
> >           +
> >             I really like this section, although I think it is a bit
> overclaiming in that it seems to imply an exhaustive case set that would
> allow us to say things more definitively. E.g., I think this is a bit
> stronger than the draft can support in its current form: "The case studie=
s
> show that the Internet infrastructure, the combination of architecture an=
d
> protocols, facilitates freedom of association and assembly, by allowing
> groups of people to converse, collaborate, exchange, and build and mainta=
in
> identities in both structural and occasional manners.=E2=80=9D I guess we=
 could try
> and think of more cases or just qualify this text a bit more that "these
> cases heavily support the assertion that=E2=80=A6"
> >           +
> >               #
> >                 The conclusion words this better, IMO (i.e., =E2=80=9Cs=
ome
> protocols=E2=80=9D): =E2=80=9Cwe established the relation between some pr=
otocols and the
> right tofreedom of assembly and association."
> >       o
> >         Section 8:
> >       o
> >           +
> >             I think this section is good, but I think it could benefit
> from a summary of what the cases showed to lend support that despite the
> *capacity* of the Internet to support association, it=E2=80=99s complicat=
ed and can
> be very fractured and increasingly proprietary.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 7:03 AM Avri <avri@apc.org <mailto:avri@apc.org=
>>
> wrote:
> >
> >     Hi,
> >
> >     Again apologies for the last minute comments.
> >
> >     Abstract: saying that something establishes  =E2=80=98the causal li=
nk=E2=80=99 is a
> very strong claim.  Are we sure we want to make that strong a claim?  Can
> we really prove a causal link and can we prove that it is =E2=80=98the=E2=
=80=99 causal
> link. I personally do not see this draft as establishing any causal links=
,
> though it does point toward where they might be found.
> >
> >     Introduction: =E2=80=9Cby investigating the exact impact of Interne=
t
> protocols on specific human rights,=E2=80=9D again a very strong claim.  =
Can we
> ever really know the exact impact in some possible causal chain?  An even
> if we want to position a possible impact, we need more definitive
> illustrations and argumentation.
> >
> >     There is an ambiguity between  allowing a right to prosper meaning =
a
> right is enabled, and what looks like a claim to a =E2=80=98right to pros=
per=E2=80=99. This
> is just a language nit, and I have avoided commenting on those for the mo=
st
> part, but this jumped out at me.
> >
> >     4. Methodology
> >
> >     =E2=80=9Cbeen further validated through confirmatory research in th=
e form of
> Human Rights Protocol Reviews.=E2=80=9D I think this is the primary reaso=
n for the
> HRPC to do reviews, but I do not beleive we have established a methodolog=
y
> for doing those yet.  At this point some people are doing reviews and
> delivering them to responses that vary from happy acceptance to irritatio=
n
> to shock and awe. As far as I can tell we have not yet developed a
> systematic methodology for measuring the impact of the considerations in
> test reviews. Nor are we yet studying the reviews to see how they apply t=
he
> considerations.  We have not yet established a rigorous method for testin=
g
> our ethnographically established hypothesis.
> >
> >     =E2=80=9CEven though the present work does not seek to create
> new guidelines, the conclusions could inform the development of new
> guidelines such as is done in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines.=E2=80=9D I thin=
k we need
> a tighter binding between the discussion in this draft and anywhere in th=
e
> guidelines where a consideration is said to be relevant to freedom of
> Expression/Assembly.
> >
> >     Perhaps this is a personal academic prejudice, but while I think
> ethnography is extremely useful in hypothesis formation, I do not see how
> it can also serve to test and verify relevance and usefulness. Seems
> circular process to me. I think we need to find other methods for testing
> and measuring.
> >
> >     6.  Cases and examples
> >
> >     Seems like a loose collection of internet features that may or may
> not have a positive or negative affect on expression & assembly.  I do no=
t
> see the persuasive argument that shows the possibility of a causal chain.
> Perhaps I am just not seeing it and others do, I accept.  Even in the two
> discussion sections, 7 & 8, the draft seems to jump from assertion to
> assertion without the rigor of argument that makes the conclusions
> inescapable.  I do not see the arguments that show why consideration in
> general or why specific considerations would be significant in enabling o=
r
> disabling the freedom of association and assembly, though the guidelines
> does make those sorts of claims.
> >
> >     Re considerations:  While I understand that the authors do not want
> to introduce new considerations related to assembly and association - the=
re
> may not be any new considerations or changes to existing considerations, =
I
> still think the draft needs to show a mapping between internet protocols
> and features and existing considerations.
> >
> >     Note: I have not called them out, but the draft needs a spelling an=
d
> grammatical scrubbing..
> >
> >     Thanks for continued efforts on this draft.
> >
> >     Avri
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     hrpc mailing list
> >     hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
> >     https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Joseph Lorenzo Hall
> > Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [
> https://www.cdt.org]
> > 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
> > e: joe@cdt.org <mailto:joe@cdt.org>, p: 202.407.8825, pgp:
> https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
> > Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10  1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871
> >
> > Don't miss out! CDT's Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The
> > Anthem. Please join us: https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > hrpc mailing list
> > hrpc@irtf.org
> > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
> >
>
> --
> Niels ten Oever
> Researcher and PhD Candidate
> DATACTIVE Research Group
> University of Amsterdam
>
> PGP fingerprint    2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488
>                    643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>


--=20
Gisela P=C3=A9rez de Acha
Human Rights Lawyer | Multimedia Journalist
Twitter:  @giselilla <https://twitter.com/giselilla>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Hi Niels, thanks for this email. And I also want =
to thank everyone for being open to have an emotional discussion in this te=
chnical space.=C2=A0</div><div>We are after all, learning in every possible=
 way, as well as welcoming new members!!</div><div><br></div><div>Have a ve=
ry happy IETF, and I&#39;ll be commenting on new drafts very soon.=C2=A0</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Cheers,=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>---</div><div=
>Gisela P=C3=A9rez de Acha</div><div>Human Rights Lawyer | Multimedia Journ=
alist</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 11:37 AM Niels ten Oever &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net">mail@nielstenoever.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex">Thanks for all the great reviews and comments. It is gr=
eat to see a lot of new energy on this draft.<br>
<br>
As mentioned, Gisela and I feel like we are not the best persons to integra=
te the proposed changes, so we would like to take a step back a lead author=
s and hope that others will step forward to take the lead to take this RG d=
ocument further.<br>
<br>
If there are no others who want to work as co-authors, perhaps the reviewer=
s (and RG participants and others) could propose alternate text either in a=
ttached markdown document, or as pull requests on github ( <a href=3D"https=
://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/drafts/blob/master/draft-association.md" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/drafts/blob/master/=
draft-association.md</a> )?<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance,<br>
<br>
Niels and Gisela<br>
<br>
On 3/28/19 3:26 PM, Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote:<br>
&gt; I&#39;m just going to share my own comments now, without having de-dup=
ed across Avri. Happy to clarify and let me know if I&#39;m being brain-dea=
d anywhere:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0*<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-h=
rpc-association-02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0*<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Abstract:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;causal=E2=80=9D? =
That=E2=80=99s a pretty surprising claim to be making here=E2=80=A6 maybe I=
=E2=80=99m missing something?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It feels like the first=
 sentence should be last, or that a final sentence should be added specific=
 to association, or the entire abstract redrafted to focus more clearly on =
the specific right -- association -- the document addresses. <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Intro:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Could be edited to be a=
 bit more concrete, and make the very good points it does make more clearly=
.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Define &quot;epistemic =
community&quot;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Typo: &quot;As the Inte=
rnet grows, decisions made about its architecture=C2=A0are become more impo=
rtant&quot;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I would probably change=
 =E2=80=9Cestablished=E2=80=9D here to =E2=80=9Cdescribed=E2=80=9D: &quot;[=
RFC8280] established the relationship between human rights and Internet pro=
tocols.&quot; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 2:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0might be good to have c=
olons (=E2=80=9C:=E2=80=9D) after each term to distinguish the term from th=
e definition?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0can=E2=80=99t distribut=
ed systems have their behavior coordinated by other things than message pas=
sing? (e.g., a global clock).<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The Infrastructure defi=
nition could benefit from being more concrete=E2=80=A6 I would think modify=
ing a more standard definition first =E2=80=94 e.g., &quot;the basic physic=
al and organizational structures and facilities (e.g. buildings, roads, pow=
er supplies) needed for the operation of a society or enterprise.=E2=80=9D)=
 =E2=80=94 and then extending it would be better.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet seems to be a =
cluster of definitions=E2=80=A6 is the reader supposed to pick one, conside=
r them all, or? <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04. Methodology:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Again, I would say =E2=
=80=9Cdescribe=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9Cestablish=E2=80=9D in &quot;an =
initial effort to establish the relationship between human rights and the I=
nternet architecture&quot;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0again with the =E2=80=
=9Ccausal=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cit ultimately established either causal or det=
erministic relationships between aforementioned concepts through a series o=
f case studies.&quot;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this is uncited=E2=80=
=A6 I=E2=80=99m not sure this document can claim anything further about 828=
0-like work without referencing something to show how individuals using 828=
0 have confirmed research in 8280: &quot;further validated through confirma=
tory research in the form of Human Rights Protocol Reviews&quot;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This definitely needs e=
laboration within the document! I know what these words mean methodological=
ly-speaking, but I=E2=80=99ve never seen them composed like this and that m=
ay just be me being not familiar with this strain of research (despite bein=
g a qualitative methods geek): =E2=80=9Cwe therefore aim to test the causal=
 relationship through a case-selection method, where we have adopted a purp=
osive sampling approach, aimed at the typicality and paradigmatic nature of=
 the cases [SeawrightGerring] to help us achieve an attempt at an an ethnog=
raphy of infrastructure [Star].&quot; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 5, Lit review:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99d like to bel=
ieve this but it=E2=80=99s not immediately obvious that the reference here =
supports the assertion made in this sentence: &quot;The IETF itself, define=
d as a &#39;open global community&#39; of network designers, operators, ven=
dors, and researchers is also protected by freedom of assembly and associat=
ion [RFC3233].&quot; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 6, cases and examples:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I really really like th=
e clarity of the analysis in 6.1.1 in the third paragraph where each of the=
 elements of free association are examined in that case=E2=80=A6 I see that=
 other sections try to do this but aren=E2=80=99t nearly as clear and lucid=
 as this first case. It would be great to try and tighten up the other case=
s analyses here.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wondering if the list a=
t the end of each subsubsection might better be comma-delimited rather than=
 dash-delimited.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A06.1.2: hmmm, WebRTC is =
basically a two-party protocol, while PERC is the multi-party conference mi=
xing version=E2=80=A6 so maybe =E2=80=9Cmulti-party=E2=80=9D should be modi=
fied here: &quot;Multi-party video conferencing protocols like WebRTC [RFC6=
176][RFC7118]...&quot;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A06.2, certainly people s=
hare =E2=80=9Cproprietary=E2=80=9D information via peer-to-peer tools and s=
ervices=E2=80=A6 I think the point here is that peers don=E2=80=99t themsel=
ves encumber downstream recipients with additional terms that would make it=
 hard to share further (but that the object being shared may have other pro=
prietary interests such as copyright=E2=80=A6). Not sure if we need to do a=
nything here it was just a subtlety that might be confusing to some readers=
.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A06.2.2: this should be m=
odified to reflect the new GIT WG and drafts? &quot;There have been two eff=
orts to standardize the workflow vis a vis these third party services, but =
these haven&#39;t come to fruition: [Wugh] [GithubIETF].&quot; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 7:=C2=A0Discussion: Establish=
ing the relation<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0can we find a different=
 way to say =E2=80=9Cjuridically=E2=80=9D?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0s/These preliminary fin=
ding suggest/These preliminary findings suggest/<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I really like this sect=
ion, although I think it is a bit overclaiming in that it seems to imply an=
 exhaustive case set that would allow us to say things more definitively. E=
.g., I think this is a bit stronger than the draft can support in its curre=
nt form: &quot;The case studies show that the Internet infrastructure, the =
combination of architecture and protocols, facilitates freedom of associati=
on and assembly, by allowing groups of people to converse, collaborate, exc=
hange, and build and maintain identities in both structural and occasional =
manners.=E2=80=9D I guess we could try and think of more cases or just qual=
ify this text a bit more that &quot;these cases heavily support the asserti=
on that=E2=80=A6&quot;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0#<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The concl=
usion words this better, IMO (i.e., =E2=80=9Csome protocols=E2=80=9D): =E2=
=80=9Cwe established the relation between some protocols and the right tofr=
eedom of assembly and association.&quot; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 8:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think this section is=
 good, but I think it could benefit from a summary of what the cases showed=
 to lend support that despite the *capacity* of the Internet to support ass=
ociation, it=E2=80=99s complicated and can be very fractured and increasing=
ly proprietary. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 7:03 AM Avri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:avri@apc.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">avri@apc.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:avri@apc=
.org" target=3D"_blank">avri@apc.org</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Again apologies for the last minute comments.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Abstract: saying that something establishes =C2=A0=
=E2=80=98the causal link=E2=80=99 is a very strong claim.=C2=A0 Are we sure=
 we want to make that strong a claim?=C2=A0 Can we really prove a causal li=
nk and can we prove that it is =E2=80=98the=E2=80=99 causal link. I persona=
lly do not see this draft as establishing any causal links, though it does =
point toward where they might be found.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Introduction: =E2=80=9Cby=C2=A0investigating the ex=
act impact of Internet protocols on specific human rights,=E2=80=9D again a=
 very strong claim.=C2=A0 Can we ever really know the exact impact in some =
possible causal chain?=C2=A0 An even if we want to position a possible impa=
ct, we need more definitive illustrations and argumentation.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is an ambiguity between =C2=A0allowing a righ=
t to prosper meaning a right is enabled, and what looks like a claim to a =
=E2=80=98right to prosper=E2=80=99. This is just a language nit, and I have=
 avoided commenting on those for the most part, but this jumped out at me.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04. Methodology<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Cbeen further validated through confirmator=
y research in the form=C2=A0of Human Rights Protocol Reviews.=E2=80=9D I th=
ink this is the primary reason for the HRPC to do reviews, but I do not bel=
eive we have established a methodology for doing those yet.=C2=A0 At this p=
oint some people are doing reviews and delivering them to responses that va=
ry from happy acceptance to irritation to shock and awe. As far as I can te=
ll we have not yet developed a systematic methodology for measuring the imp=
act of the considerations in test reviews. Nor are we yet studying the revi=
ews to see how they apply the considerations.=C2=A0 We have not yet establi=
shed a rigorous method for testing our ethnographically established hypothe=
sis.=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CEven though the present work does not seek=
 to create new=C2=A0guidelines, the conclusions could inform the developmen=
t of new guidelines such as is done in draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines.=E2=80=9D=
 I think we need a tighter binding between the discussion in this draft and=
 anywhere in the guidelines where a consideration is said to be relevant to=
 freedom of Expression/Assembly.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Perhaps this is a personal academic prejudice, but =
while I think ethnography is extremely useful in hypothesis formation, I do=
 not see how it can also serve to test and verify relevance and usefulness.=
 Seems circular process to me. I think we need to find other methods for te=
sting and measuring.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A06.=C2=A0 Cases and examples=C2=A0<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Seems like a loose collection of internet features =
that may or may not have a positive or negative affect on expression &amp; =
assembly.=C2=A0 I do not see the persuasive argument that shows the possibi=
lity of a causal chain.=C2=A0 Perhaps I am just not seeing it and others do=
, I accept.=C2=A0 Even in the two discussion sections, 7 &amp; 8, the draft=
 seems to jump from assertion to assertion without the rigor of argument th=
at makes the conclusions inescapable.=C2=A0 I do not see the arguments that=
 show why consideration in general or why specific considerations would be =
significant in enabling or disabling the freedom of association and assembl=
y, though the guidelines does make those sorts of claims.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Re considerations: =C2=A0While I understand that th=
e authors do not want to introduce new considerations related to assembly a=
nd association - there may not be any new considerations or changes to exis=
ting considerations, I still think the draft needs to show a mapping betwee=
n internet protocols and features and existing considerations.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Note: I have not called them out, but the draft nee=
ds a spelling and grammatical scrubbing..<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for continued efforts on this draft.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Avri<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hrpc mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
hrpc@irtf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">hrpc@irtf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr=
pc" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/hrpc</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; Joseph Lorenzo Hall<br>
&gt; Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy &amp; Technology [<a href=3D"=
https://www.cdt.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.cdt.o=
rg</a>]<br>
&gt; 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497<br>
&gt; e: <a href=3D"mailto:joe@cdt.org" target=3D"_blank">joe@cdt.org</a> &l=
t;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:joe@cdt.org" target=3D"_blank">joe@cdt.org</a>&g=
t;, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: <a href=3D"https://josephhall.org/gpg-key" rel=3D=
"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://josephhall.org/gpg-key</a><br>
&gt; Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 =C2=A01607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Don&#39;t miss out! CDT&#39;s Tech Prom is April 10, 2019, at The<br>
&gt; Anthem. Please join us: <a href=3D"https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://cdt.org/annual-dinner/</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; hrpc mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">hrpc@irtf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
-- <br>
Niels ten Oever<br>
Researcher and PhD Candidate<br>
DATACTIVE Research Group<br>
University of Amsterdam<br>
<br>
PGP fingerprint=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488=C2=A0 <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0643A 0=
ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
hrpc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:hrpc@irtf.org" target=3D"_blank">hrpc@irtf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><sp=
an><span><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Gisela P=C3=A9rez de Acha</div><div><sp=
an></span></div><div>Human Rights Lawyer | Multimedia Journalist <br></div>=
<div>Twitter:=C2=A0 <span><span><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/giselilla" t=
arget=3D"_blank">@giselilla</a><br></span></span></div></div></div></span><=
/span><span><span></span></span></div></div></span></div></div>

--00000000000092bc6605852d7ec6--


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Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-irtf-hrpc-association-02
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Hi,

Thanks to you and to Gisela for taking the draft as far as it has come.

Mallory and I will discuss how best to continue with this draft. 
Definitely interested in hearing from anyone who is interested in being
part of an editorial effort to take it toward completion.

Thanks

avri


On 28-Mar-19 13:36, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> Thanks for all the great reviews and comments. It is great to see a lot of new energy on this draft.
>
> As mentioned, Gisela and I feel like we are not the best persons to integrate the proposed changes, so we would like to take a step back a lead authors and hope that others will step forward to take the lead to take this RG document further.
>
> If there are no others who want to work as co-authors, perhaps the reviewers (and RG participants and others) could propose alternate text either in attached markdown document, or as pull requests on github ( https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/drafts/blob/master/draft-association.md )?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Niels and Gisela
>
>

