From nobody Mon Jul 8 16:43:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8471203B5 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 16:43:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=derechosdigitales.org header.b=OFSOtN2n; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=0vAoKhmS Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q22ZO56kGcK6 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 16:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 440AC12038F for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 16:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157B74C2 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 19:43:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 08 Jul 2019 19:43:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= derechosdigitales.org; h=from:to:references:subject:message-id :date:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=xstbkUF7pN3rPGjltbAWqeWfG2 M7a1RGbFGYMHjrgZM=; b=OFSOtN2njkUJOw2zVsNCfYJRODDwo7QbDuCzULhREn bIAWueX32/92rwPvidEDqJ7BFOihehWyDsWkY6Y0Fnud1py3pep04CnP0m7/tBOK Y8D7oaChdyZxPjgNKrKc6lyhVUH/LjftoDKuFBxPybsdAk/KDmcBRRzBySwazc7d 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curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhephffvfhfukffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomheplfhulhhirghnrgcuifhuvghrrhgruceojhhulhhirghnrges uggvrhgvtghhohhsughighhithgrlhgvshdrohhrgheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehirhhtfh drohhrghdprghrkhhkohdrtghomhdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhlrggtnhhitgdrnhgvthen ucfkphepudeivddrvdegjedrjeefrdduleefnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe hjuhhlihgrnhgrseguvghrvggthhhoshguihhgihhtrghlvghsrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhs thgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [10.41.1.254] (testbed-users.calyx.net [162.247.73.193]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9D6F78005A for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 19:43:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Juliana Guerra To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=juliana@derechosdigitales.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFfRsLcBEACuW2xcKhPTcaSD9ZnXQLQmJFiQR8/NLlfbEc1+Cmwd1neMoXkjhM0AtTlz 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Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 23:43:18 -0000 Hello Niels, I've read your I-D and I can't say something else than I think it's very interesting and you've synthesized very well the previous versions. And I'm not sure if it is out of the draft scope, but in ietf-lac (1) there is a recent (and also a long term, as I've seen) discussion on lac community participation in IETF. Some of the issues are: - the possibility for lac community to publish RFCs - meetings in Lac region - participation fees I shared your draft, inviting them to participate in the discussion. I'm almost sure they will not, but all of this just to say I think it is important to mention financial issues in this draft. Not exactly to develop what was written before but related to "How voluntary are open standards?". Every person who has commented something in the list said mention the difficulties that participations fees represent for Lac community. And rather than economic, I think this is political taking into account the disparities in IETF participation and production (2). I suppose this discussion is not new (as I am new here) and I would really like to read from you and others in this list, can it be part of this draft or another in HRPC? Regards, Juliana (1) https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/ietf-lac (2) http://www.arkko.com/tools/recrfcstats/d-countrydistr.html http://www.arkko.com/tools/recrfcstats/d-contdistr.html (shared in lac list) On 17/05/19 10:41, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations RG of the IRTF. > > Title : Notes on networking standards and politics > Author : Niels ten Oever > Filename : draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt > Pages : 15 > Date : 2019-05-17 > > Abstract: > The IETF cannot ordain what standards or protocols are to be used on > networks, but the standards development process in the IETF does have > an impact on society through its normative standards setting process. > Among other things, the IETF's work affects what is perceived as > technologically possible and useful where networking technologies are > being deployed, and its standards reflect what is considered by the > technical community to be feasible and good practice. Whereas there > might not be agreement among the Internet protocol community on the > specific political nature of the technological development process > and its outputs, it is undisputed that standards and protocols are > both products of a political process, and they can also be used for > political means. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-political/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > From nobody Fri Jul 12 02:27:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08595120122 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 02:27:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lXDQiOBLT0h0 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 02:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8B85120133 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 02:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hlrpL-0002FL-Qn for hrpc@irtf.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:26:52 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABtChOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+iQJZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI7kCDQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:26:50 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 8c99c374a8d12108ecfc332d37a9628a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:27:00 -0000 Hi Juliana, Thank you very much for your review! Some responses in-line: On 7/9/19 1:42 AM, Juliana Guerra wrote: > Hello Niels, I've read your I-D and I can't say something else than I > think it's very interesting and you've synthesized very well the > previous versions. And I'm not sure if it is out of the draft scope, but > in ietf-lac (1) there is a recent (and also a long term, as I've seen) > discussion on lac community participation in IETF. Some of the issues > are: > > - the possibility for lac community to publish RFCs > - meetings in Lac region > - participation fees > > I shared your draft, inviting them to participate in the discussion. I'm > almost sure they will not, but all of this just to say I think it is > important to mention financial issues in this draft. Not exactly to > develop what was written before but related to "How voluntary are open > standards?". Every person who has commented something in the list said > mention the difficulties that participations fees represent for Lac > community. And rather than economic, I think this is political taking > into account the disparities in IETF participation and production (2). > I fully agree with you that this is an important issue. In a previous version of this draft we had a paragraph on how the finances of the IETF [0]. I have left this out of the current version since it seemed to distract from the main research question, because it was a second order concern, in relation to the politics of protocols. Please allow me to explain. Many people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not intended to bring in new people, this actually has become an official non-goal in the meeting venue selection process per draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process and draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The current consensus seems to be that participating in the IETF is not dependent of physical participation, but can also be done through mailinglists and remote tools. I agree with you that the threshold to participate in the IETF is high because of the high pricing of meetings, the abundant travel, the tooling, and many other issues, some of which you have highlighted in draft-guerra-feminism. Nonetheless I am not sure whether adding this argumentation to draft-irtf-hrpc-political would increase the I-Ds usefulness or chances of progressing. This draft is meant as a platform to counter the argument 'protocols are neutral', and in that sense it is a beginning, not an end point for further discussion. So in short, I agree with you on your argument, but I am not sure whether adding this concern will either improve the issue, or the draft. But of course, always happy to discuss. [0] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-political-01#section-5.2.1 > I suppose this discussion is not new (as I am new here) and I would > really like to read from you and others in this list, can it be part of > this draft or another in HRPC? > All discussions on participation cost differentiation, as well as diversity, spark a lot of discussion in the IETF, as the archives of ietf@ietf can attest. Instead of having more discussions about this in I-Ds and on mailinglists I would actually be curious to hear what members on the IAB or IAOC hailing from LATAM have to say about this, and see what is possible. That might be a more productive way forward instead of redoing a discussion that has been had several times. Thanks again for your review and contribution! Best, Niels > Regards, > > Juliana > > (1) https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/ietf-lac > > (2) http://www.arkko.com/tools/recrfcstats/d-countrydistr.html > http://www.arkko.com/tools/recrfcstats/d-contdistr.html (shared in lac > list) > > > On 17/05/19 10:41, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations RG of the IRTF. >> >> Title : Notes on networking standards and politics >> Author : Niels ten Oever >> Filename : draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt >> Pages : 15 >> Date : 2019-05-17 >> >> Abstract: >> The IETF cannot ordain what standards or protocols are to be used on >> networks, but the standards development process in the IETF does have >> an impact on society through its normative standards setting process. >> Among other things, the IETF's work affects what is perceived as >> technologically possible and useful where networking technologies are >> being deployed, and its standards reflect what is considered by the >> technical community to be feasible and good practice. Whereas there >> might not be agreement among the Internet protocol community on the >> specific political nature of the technological development process >> and its outputs, it is undisputed that standards and protocols are >> both products of a political process, and they can also be used for >> political means. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-political/ >> >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Jul 12 03:10:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21FB1203CC for ; 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12 Jul 2019 10:10:08 +0000 Received: from rtp-vpn3-403.cisco.com (rtp-vpn3-403.cisco.com [10.82.217.149]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6CAA49h018388 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:10:07 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AD1F6186-B3AE-4690-8B76-E4FF8FB0299D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:10:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org To: Niels ten Oever References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.82.217.149, rtp-vpn3-403.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:10:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AD1F6186-B3AE-4690-8B76-E4FF8FB0299D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_24B8D1E9-7486-44CC-A3D9-F3A47B399A06" --Apple-Mail=_24B8D1E9-7486-44CC-A3D9-F3A47B399A06 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Niels > On 12 Jul 2019, at 11:26, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >=20 > Many people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not = intended to bring in new people, this actually has become an official = non-goal in the meeting venue selection process per = draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process and = draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The current consensus seems to be = that participating in the IETF is not dependent of physical = participation, but can also be done through mailinglists and remote = tools. As the editor of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, I = don=E2=80=99t think you should shy away in your research from = challenging that where, in your view, the IETF may have erred. Whatever = consensus the IETF has can change based on well reasoned argument, and = the IRTF is expected to provide that. Maybe not immediately, and maybe = not without other precipitating factors that either don=E2=80=99t exist = today or are not yet readily apparent, but this is really the only way = change happens. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_24B8D1E9-7486-44CC-A3D9-F3A47B399A06 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Niels

On 12 Jul 2019, at 11:26, Niels ten Oever = <mail@nielstenoever.net> wrote:

Many people in the IETF are = convinced that the meetings are not intended to bring in new people, = this actually has become an official non-goal in the meeting venue = selection process per draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process = and draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The current consensus seems to = be that participating in the IETF is not dependent of physical = participation, but can also be done through mailinglists and remote = tools.

As = the editor of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, I = don=E2=80=99t think you should shy away in your research from = challenging that where, in your view, the IETF may have erred. =  Whatever consensus the IETF has can change based on well reasoned = argument, and the IRTF is expected to provide that.  Maybe not = immediately, and maybe not without other precipitating factors that = either don=E2=80=99t exist today or are not yet readily apparent, but = this is really the only way change happens.

Eliot

= --Apple-Mail=_24B8D1E9-7486-44CC-A3D9-F3A47B399A06-- --Apple-Mail=_AD1F6186-B3AE-4690-8B76-E4FF8FB0299D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXShcegAKCRBugA9nE248 uCOVAKCs6xNTR2YwGxUg6RAkXJITsYl0KQCfQMR8cIg3quoNhLrr2HPUwBVKHVE= =2gj3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_AD1F6186-B3AE-4690-8B76-E4FF8FB0299D-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 04:05:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C83F120468 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:05:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4tAMG_CLG9Al for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5448F120302 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hltM6-0003UL-Qo; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:05:33 +0200 To: Eliot Lear Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABtChOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+iQJZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI7kCDQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:04:45 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="G5Z2AIkxldppg4LmCl3kw9UqcJHKDALfl" X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: d2b65465fd2235632e6f1ea95c39dbf6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:05:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --G5Z2AIkxldppg4LmCl3kw9UqcJHKDALfl Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="7IklCM609c2vk1Jz7GbLahnXJ507YS4DM"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: Eliot Lear Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> --7IklCM609c2vk1Jz7GbLahnXJ507YS4DM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Elliot, On 7/12/19 12:10 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Niels >=20 >> On 12 Jul 2019, at 11:26, Niels ten Oever > wrote: >> >> Many people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not intend= ed to bring in new people, this actually has become an official non-goal = in the meeting venue selection process per draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue= -selection-process and draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The current co= nsensus seems to be that participating in the IETF is not dependent of ph= ysical participation, but can also be done through mailinglists and remot= e tools. >=20 > As the editor of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, I do= n=E2=80=99t think you should shy away in your research from challenging t= hat where, in your view, the IETF may have erred.=20 Don't worry, I will ;)=20 =C2=A0Whatever consensus the IETF has can change based on well reasoned a= rgument, and the IRTF is expected to provide that. =C2=A0Maybe not immedi= ately, and maybe not without other precipitating factors that either don=E2= =80=99t exist today or are not yet readily apparent, but this is really t= he only way change happens. >=20 I think the the issue of participation would benefit from its own draft. = Ideally it could show several trends: - consolidation=20 - total number of participants/draft authors/RFC authors/mailinglist co= ntributors is affiliated to a low number of organizations - academic exodus - decreasing number of participants/draft authors/RFC authors/mailinglis= t contributors is affiliated with an academic institution - geographical representation - diversity and seek to explain to the data and trends, and ideally also provide reco= mmendations.=20 I do personally not think it would be helpful to add this to draft-irtf-h= rpc-political, but it could indeed be a follow-up draft. I would be happy= to support the writing of that with quantitative mailinglist analysis. I could also imagine this being part of this draft though: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-02 Where it might have more impact than in hrpc. Cheers, Niels > Eliot >=20 --=20 Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --7IklCM609c2vk1Jz7GbLahnXJ507YS4DM-- --G5Z2AIkxldppg4LmCl3kw9UqcJHKDALfl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAl0oaU0ACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMsCRAAnk2MLdmTpJv3azciSyapDDlhlD/Irz0lL2/jmTWD2bjLPT+0Kn8sThV0 gcw3dP7yqbb3JlxljQaTPIC1jeKaPiwEkb68yktYGYDaN6BU+Kc8/lbWr0u2HadF 7BMtpIILdMRQNYm0ENDQ6q6GVIGlc4sooRSRUtseAL2ceVi5adD2WCriVWVo9i2j tTZJeV84HgIbtPEL/g0RsTvpj+r7ijB2kIImRm0k/wjlFs/ZSImzYgxnn7ViSJ4O vXu8C4vP65LF2v8vuSEfCUncpmhi4r96kInwVYbxi8L/gfcsrLHQMIYftNjRitr5 SrIZyiRZp0oZVrV+ua55xrr57eqPBlwq46hoByT+ZvvC5AucEPYpN7gHyCt5tV1V EcfOH6M0VIRPKDEd6o5cxBzCUN9tEopExbpxa3LiiCEZ88Zib/8tXcEqKHV5BhjG vimHOVQ4JuAeShfkWwtoTBQ3dAzmdT7j/cgLH0PgIp/6TG4G5NeOiqcJUYygxj+8 PJUngnPQe19OtYg7S0Jw3toy/WrEsiTjQPIKiyx0MPex25ZTY98f9VwiT6o7du3l N0aj1JOmKHdwoqOSYhR1T8LVrkHU7Rcap3XWtO0j2n5RCGG0ygETgx1WHEc9qD35 cMp/bsOzFo+JeD+9FEOA0UgmjBXHKRSDBJzaEfN55443gwg7Xmg= =INRM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --G5Z2AIkxldppg4LmCl3kw9UqcJHKDALfl-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 04:08:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B64120469 for ; 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12 Jul 2019 11:08:39 +0000 Received: from [10.61.195.229] ([10.61.195.229]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6CB8bqw022250 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:08:38 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A29D63F7-AADB-4822-BB52-FDD4050DF143"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:08:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org To: Niels ten Oever References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.195.229, [10.61.195.229] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:08:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A29D63F7-AADB-4822-BB52-FDD4050DF143 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Ok, it=E2=80=99s fair enough to not have to cram everything in one = draft. I must admit my own concern about our self-selective tendencies, = not simply because the disadvantage new entrants, but because it will = limit our relevance over time. Eliot > On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:04, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > Hi Elliot, >=20 > On 7/12/19 12:10 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Hi Niels >>=20 >>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 11:26, Niels ten Oever > wrote: >>>=20 >>> Many people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not = intended to bring in new people, this actually has become an official = non-goal in the meeting venue selection process per = draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process and = draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The current consensus seems to be = that participating in the IETF is not dependent of physical = participation, but can also be done through mailinglists and remote = tools. >>=20 >> As the editor of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, I = don=E2=80=99t think you should shy away in your research from = challenging that where, in your view, the IETF may have erred. >=20 > Don't worry, I will ;) >=20 > Whatever consensus the IETF has can change based on well reasoned = argument, and the IRTF is expected to provide that. Maybe not = immediately, and maybe not without other precipitating factors that = either don=E2=80=99t exist today or are not yet readily apparent, but = this is really the only way change happens. >>=20 >=20 > I think the the issue of participation would benefit from its own = draft. Ideally it could show several trends: >=20 > - consolidation > - total number of participants/draft authors/RFC = authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated to a low number of = organizations > - academic exodus > - decreasing number of participants/draft authors/RFC = authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated with an academic = institution > - geographical representation > - diversity >=20 > and seek to explain to the data and trends, and ideally also provide = recommendations. >=20 > I do personally not think it would be helpful to add this to = draft-irtf-hrpc-political, but it could indeed be a follow-up draft. I = would be happy to support the writing of that with quantitative = mailinglist analysis. >=20 > I could also imagine this being part of this draft though: >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-02 >=20 > Where it might have more impact than in hrpc. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Niels >=20 >=20 >> Eliot >>=20 >=20 > -- > Niels ten Oever > Researcher and PhD Candidate > DATACTIVE Research Group > University of Amsterdam >=20 > PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 > 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_A29D63F7-AADB-4822-BB52-FDD4050DF143 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXShqNQAKCRBugA9nE248 uPAvAKCLIftkD36T/SOUGqAP8OdmeKHQ1QCg3xetvc/BtqoxDmNly31TUoXIFqY= =k+03 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 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b3QNCj4gPj4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IC0tDQo+ID4gTmllbHMgdGVuIE9ldmVyDQo+ID4gUmVzZWFyY2hl ciBhbmQgUGhEIENhbmRpZGF0ZQ0KPiA+IERBVEFDVElWRSBSZXNlYXJjaCBHcm91cA0KPiA+IFVu aXZlcnNpdHkgb2YgQW1zdGVyZGFtDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBQR1AgZmluZ2VycHJpbnQJICAgMjQ1OCAw QjcwIDVDNEEgRkQ4QSA5NDg4DQo+ID4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgNjQzQSAwRUQ4IDNGM0Eg NDY4QSBDOEIzDQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+DQoNCg== From nobody Fri Jul 12 04:49:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36EB312011E for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:49:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y2H8-FvXYLY1 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A843212008A for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hlu36-0006UA-2w; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:49:42 +0200 To: "Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" , Eliot Lear Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= 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BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <70160637-6afe-cf72-f81b-5c38e6bef52f@nielstenoever.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:49:11 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 92147cc26b2e14e0b1010f762ef587ae Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Diverse participation (and the lack thereof) was: I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:49:49 -0000 Is hrpc the right venue for this discussion though? Might fit better in IAB or GEN AREA ? I don't want to get hrpc (and its chairs) into trouble (again). Cheers, Niels On 7/12/19 1:29 PM, Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote: > Hi, > > It's an interesting discussion. > To Niels point on a "IETF/IRTF participation draft": > - Should the evolution (and relative pervasiveness) of collaboration technologies/means/practices also be factored in? > - For the participation from academics, I could share some experience and limited analysis on why some researchers participate, or don't or stop to. IETF and IRTF have different implications. > > --Laurent. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: hrpc On Behalf Of Eliot Lear >> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 13:09 >> To: Niels ten Oever >> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org >> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt >> >> Ok, it’s fair enough to not have to cram everything in one draft. I must >> admit my own concern about our self-selective tendencies, not simply >> because the disadvantage new entrants, but because it will limit our >> relevance over time. >> >> Eliot >> >>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:04, Niels ten Oever >> wrote: >>> >>> Signed PGP part >>> Hi Elliot, >>> >>> On 7/12/19 12:10 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>> Hi Niels >>>> >>>>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 11:26, Niels ten Oever > > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Many people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not >> intended to bring in new people, this actually has become an official non- >> goal in the meeting venue selection process per draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc- >> venue-selection-process and draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The >> current consensus seems to be that participating in the IETF is not >> dependent of physical participation, but can also be done through >> mailinglists and remote tools. >>>> >>>> As the editor of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, I >> don’t think you should shy away in your research from challenging that >> where, in your view, the IETF may have erred. >>> >>> Don't worry, I will ;) >>> >>> Whatever consensus the IETF has can change based on well reasoned >> argument, and the IRTF is expected to provide that. Maybe not >> immediately, and maybe not without other precipitating factors that either >> don’t exist today or are not yet readily apparent, but this is really the >> only way change happens. >>>> >>> >>> I think the the issue of participation would benefit from its own draft. >> Ideally it could show several trends: >>> >>> - consolidation >>> - total number of participants/draft authors/RFC >> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated to a low number of >> organizations >>> - academic exodus >>> - decreasing number of participants/draft authors/RFC >> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated with an academic >> institution >>> - geographical representation >>> - diversity >>> >>> and seek to explain to the data and trends, and ideally also provide >> recommendations. >>> >>> I do personally not think it would be helpful to add this to draft-irtf- >> hrpc-political, but it could indeed be a follow-up draft. I would be happy >> to support the writing of that with quantitative mailinglist analysis. >>> >>> I could also imagine this being part of this draft though: >>> >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-02 >>> >>> Where it might have more impact than in hrpc. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Niels >>> >>> >>>> Eliot >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Niels ten Oever >>> Researcher and PhD Candidate >>> DATACTIVE Research Group >>> University of Amsterdam >>> >>> PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 >>> 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >>> >>> >>> > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Jul 12 05:12:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4153F1202FF for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:12:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E7f6qy3hTrbq for ; 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Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:12:31 +0000 (UTC) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <70160637-6afe-cf72-f81b-5c38e6bef52f@nielstenoever.net> From: avri@doria.org Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=avri@doria.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFJXhnsBCADCE9YSMulYfOUptnfTF1uwP2BRzUq87CAUacN6N5H5k8lNffqEXmgI+QWC njF7OwJ71rQLVYV3sIlpCQU9UyQfLHZDZoqV1d+aAJhgmmG6XtSReUi4jgAvsLzj+HkJSSqU 4voepwXs5k2DgRONAXojxvV5rFExDNqz4fn1zj2jf0SMTbCBkhHw1HQ6WXqW5T73LNbEUVys yEJBb+3+ITCVPTeVm7P/dXIEnsIsRVW8yeYoo1+E+jbPJ0OqHXtrWTdqqlU1CUHBgGWEFIIM qT//XVO0Kck8qyir7wqXb37fhSAkw32ZAKrd2NFrq71qk9Yj+SLtgxxqjGVLcbh3WVfRABEB AAG0G2F2cmkgZG9yaWEgPGF2cmlAZG9yaWEub3JnPokBPAQTAQgAJgIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUI AgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBBQJZvm+gAAoJENWp6aLJ/w+n0uQIAKc9Cb5C7NLtjvu2JvcQ Y8QLiubHVvYHAcTsP2J/JRviFIGeZY7uShuhf6VDI8wYXqAjhLfPGv6KvudwOs1dZ4VvzmUt 4yLWPGMEz7T7cQItc/jcYxJYdtI9g0OfYXQMV4TIIQB2KC40bnLjkd3d5EF+2cQIpivE3RED xQ5DZcsbi5q4E4t0z4Zzg5iskwR58cNnlvbVr+5qlVu1KiDYAMCR+ij4AJtzwpRTkH1l6hrv zOmgsdqqPIzSHWdcZPxWsSOm53sFDE54qABhL6+4fbPzRDZnvObnTP6bukPzX5vzYFGXIcQw RqgGOHi83Wf6dPum6K9YmCzxbdgwRsQGEda5AQ0EUleGewEIAL2hntjt90xA4j9yeFvFMAmE qG/rIj0w3XfV3bQsDBUUdH4rVl3SSPp7rBNhe7drGN+SgQP2lJ6hcikRxfZEj9DnT0/9ERrM MqO7SYUTB6Tx8vIoqmy/T4nqHpVlnCTyixxJDaohUHtTkN3BEie//PlMnIC2tXt9JRMXSTAq 3lrUp2mRzDXBWZLhPVUqx6Uo3MMH1magq888piNJAQdf/P+vSuayjVwPyuG6HEEdG+5Q006Q eZQKfAZinaq3ICEyimWZbLWZRC5bw26PZOKxICUKNA1hAaIhw4OKrGsKRCTOj4cN5T6rr/wj zrwwsxypxUiEac/7bVwgEv5O/+TipAkAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQIbLgUCWb5voAEpwF0gBBkB AgAGBQJSV4Z7AAoJEOo+L8tCe36HTvYH/RXrGi8imCvHou7US+pua51wTQrWghz6nEaavtFR +k5wHrf7WdjxEdDaJnb0YZki5IiEyqhHEq9Tb0JMCye4rzgWpvd1Z8JJ2FXmY8EjuRZg1sP3 3bvxm1hM7qsPCTWXzn1eHY3i5zAdtEEk0h+isLmEuuFWhGNwzyb0BC/h84YHylqv7/bMrHUz CtkUKdO2Vx0W8e/EWUDfLJnHtvTFTT1E/koOnWErJfmKhq2G6rMv13XsU7vr9AWZ6vDA3z2o sCHWkA2gkhU7TwHqPkY9HPoekUXlR/n11jBS9Jwx4Dnsyd7pqaRHxoyRqfEWTi8JF+N+XzC3 buf3G3buW3BDmNcJENWp6aLJ/w+n+8wH/0dSUDcbks95ftWatIWFXdtofOTexLvj13dH9BWa Sy7OQDKa1N838tTsRVLOMpF3AmbkqNWDqdF37HcWST9aO/Pi8vSFGtIbVHD74aFUG3PlNOBs lZea+G2UUV2WSXZPiTci8IL2mF8hrt92LcE/4AaaXh35d8ngpjx3CqIkFoMUHVEA1iye5YL+ GjqFR3R2AMLhwK/Nu9uw+cSJQqeZpzkGulPd4Gccxj8YMLQIiZwMTPIReWgSETohRmzyS04Z 6yQ42xcvoUbQ6lLXW0fjNNTBcD93hnlOk1xf+d9tx3fvigMrkxbVGNx/Ob92oRGwz63nnnPg DoZoktZXmyHIh2E= Message-ID: <84cef63a-4396-ac7a-043b-336d71d4e712@doria.org> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:12:30 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <70160637-6afe-cf72-f81b-5c38e6bef52f@nielstenoever.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 190712-0, 07/12/2019), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Diverse participation (and the lack thereof) was: I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:12:37 -0000 Hi, Was asking myself something similar; wondering whether it was a topic of protocols even though the starting impetus for this work was about the process of protocol develop in the IETF. And thank you. We too want to avoid getting into trouble with the powers that be again. avri On 12-Jul-19 07:49, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Is hrpc the right venue for this discussion though? Might fit better in IAB or GEN AREA ? I don't want to get hrpc (and its chairs) into trouble (again). > > Cheers, > > Niels > > On 7/12/19 1:29 PM, Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote: >> Hi, >> >> It's an interesting discussion. >> To Niels point on a "IETF/IRTF participation draft": >> - Should the evolution (and relative pervasiveness) of collaboration technologies/means/practices also be factored in? >> - For the participation from academics, I could share some experience and limited analysis on why some researchers participate, or don't or stop to. IETF and IRTF have different implications. >> >> --Laurent. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: hrpc On Behalf Of Eliot Lear >>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 13:09 >>> To: Niels ten Oever >>> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org >>> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt >>> >>> Ok, it’s fair enough to not have to cram everything in one draft. I must >>> admit my own concern about our self-selective tendencies, not simply >>> because the disadvantage new entrants, but because it will limit our >>> relevance over time. >>> >>> Eliot >>> >>>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:04, Niels ten Oever >>> wrote: >>>> Signed PGP part >>>> Hi Elliot, >>>> >>>> On 7/12/19 12:10 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>> Hi Niels >>>>> >>>>>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 11:26, Niels ten Oever >> > wrote: >>>>>> Many people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not >>> intended to bring in new people, this actually has become an official non- >>> goal in the meeting venue selection process per draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc- >>> venue-selection-process and draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The >>> current consensus seems to be that participating in the IETF is not >>> dependent of physical participation, but can also be done through >>> mailinglists and remote tools. >>>>> As the editor of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, I >>> don’t think you should shy away in your research from challenging that >>> where, in your view, the IETF may have erred. >>>> Don't worry, I will ;) >>>> >>>> Whatever consensus the IETF has can change based on well reasoned >>> argument, and the IRTF is expected to provide that. Maybe not >>> immediately, and maybe not without other precipitating factors that either >>> don’t exist today or are not yet readily apparent, but this is really the >>> only way change happens. >>>> I think the the issue of participation would benefit from its own draft. >>> Ideally it could show several trends: >>>> - consolidation >>>> - total number of participants/draft authors/RFC >>> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated to a low number of >>> organizations >>>> - academic exodus >>>> - decreasing number of participants/draft authors/RFC >>> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated with an academic >>> institution >>>> - geographical representation >>>> - diversity >>>> >>>> and seek to explain to the data and trends, and ideally also provide >>> recommendations. >>>> I do personally not think it would be helpful to add this to draft-irtf- >>> hrpc-political, but it could indeed be a follow-up draft. I would be happy >>> to support the writing of that with quantitative mailinglist analysis. >>>> I could also imagine this being part of this draft though: >>>> >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-02 >>>> >>>> Where it might have more impact than in hrpc. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Niels >>>> >>>> >>>>> Eliot >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Niels ten Oever >>>> Researcher and PhD Candidate >>>> DATACTIVE Research Group >>>> University of Amsterdam >>>> >>>> PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 >>>> 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >>>> >>>> >>>> From nobody Fri Jul 12 05:46:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C8F1200FA for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:45:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gKBd-1WZmWSC for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0ED2120045 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14393; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1562935556; x=1564145156; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=JzzoattLiZyMEx0DaiQWcaulJYdVwgyN3X/FgrQZKmQ=; b=JSALbdTQAIleL1JGTKLiErhoT2nEzLWK7KBAinRTYYsIkM2SK8X/3I7z WhGRlN60t0GXmoSmEcSFK2DmScD9uly00Tm3gVIGUXWe6ThIT9IWkh9CZ Xe9Ioj+w9a3LgPS+xcSL1yiuMoSmeT+YD0FDosred6KpmuJeCsqtfmrK6 Q=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BaAACrgChd/xbLJq1lGgEBAQEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEHAgEBAQGBZ4MBUjIohByIe4t2kniHfQIHAQEBCQMBASMMAQGEQAKCeTg?= =?us-ascii?q?TAQMBAQQBAQIBBW2FPAyFSgEBAQECASNLCwUHBAsRBAEBASMEAwICRgkIBhO?= =?us-ascii?q?DIgGBew8PrByBMoQ2AoEPhGQKBoE0gVGKJYF/gREnH4JMPoJhAQEDgTcBBgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BVIJUMoImBIxRiCCHbI4FCYIbgh+BDIMtjTMbhj6Gd4pRlHmMe4MLAgQGBQI?= =?us-ascii?q?VgWchKoEuMxoIGxVlAYJBPoI6iE6FQT0DMI4eAQ4XgiwBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,482,1557187200"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="14172206" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 12 Jul 2019 12:45:52 +0000 Received: from [10.61.195.229] ([10.61.195.229]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6CCjpC2024587 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:45:51 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <97570E86-8EB9-47DD-B914-63F7791FFB46@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CF36F795-CB7D-4E28-A58A-431BAD320F3B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:45:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: <70160637-6afe-cf72-f81b-5c38e6bef52f@nielstenoever.net> Cc: "Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" , "hrpc@irtf.org" To: Niels ten Oever References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <70160637-6afe-cf72-f81b-5c38e6bef52f@nielstenoever.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.195.229, [10.61.195.229] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Diverse participation (and the lack thereof) was: I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:45:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CF36F795-CB7D-4E28-A58A-431BAD320F3B Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BF6F2FFE-7AE1-453A-B243-69912CCAFF83" --Apple-Mail=_BF6F2FFE-7AE1-453A-B243-69912CCAFF83 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It is in as much as participation is a factor in decisions made in = standards that affect societies. However, my own interest in seeing the = IETF not become irrelevant is not relevant here, I must admit. Eliot > On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:49, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >=20 > Is hrpc the right venue for this discussion though? Might fit better = in IAB or GEN AREA ? I don't want to get hrpc (and its chairs) into = trouble (again). >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Niels >=20 > On 7/12/19 1:29 PM, Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) = wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> It's an interesting discussion. >> To Niels point on a "IETF/IRTF participation draft": >> - Should the evolution (and relative pervasiveness) of collaboration = technologies/means/practices also be factored in? >> - For the participation from academics, I could share some experience = and limited analysis on why some researchers participate, or don't or = stop to. IETF and IRTF have different implications. >>=20 >> --Laurent. >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: hrpc On Behalf Of Eliot Lear >>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 13:09 >>> To: Niels ten Oever >>> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org >>> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt >>>=20 >>> Ok, it=E2=80=99s fair enough to not have to cram everything in one = draft. I must >>> admit my own concern about our self-selective tendencies, not simply >>> because the disadvantage new entrants, but because it will limit our >>> relevance over time. >>>=20 >>> Eliot >>>=20 >>>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:04, Niels ten Oever >>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Signed PGP part >>>> Hi Elliot, >>>>=20 >>>> On 7/12/19 12:10 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>> Hi Niels >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 11:26, Niels ten Oever >> > wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Many people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not >>> intended to bring in new people, this actually has become an = official non- >>> goal in the meeting venue selection process per = draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc- >>> venue-selection-process and draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The >>> current consensus seems to be that participating in the IETF is not >>> dependent of physical participation, but can also be done through >>> mailinglists and remote tools. >>>>>=20 >>>>> As the editor of draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, = I >>> don=E2=80=99t think you should shy away in your research from = challenging that >>> where, in your view, the IETF may have erred. >>>>=20 >>>> Don't worry, I will ;) >>>>=20 >>>> Whatever consensus the IETF has can change based on well reasoned >>> argument, and the IRTF is expected to provide that. Maybe not >>> immediately, and maybe not without other precipitating factors that = either >>> don=E2=80=99t exist today or are not yet readily apparent, but this = is really the >>> only way change happens. >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I think the the issue of participation would benefit from its own = draft. >>> Ideally it could show several trends: >>>>=20 >>>> - consolidation >>>> - total number of participants/draft authors/RFC >>> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated to a low number of >>> organizations >>>> - academic exodus >>>> - decreasing number of participants/draft authors/RFC >>> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated with an academic >>> institution >>>> - geographical representation >>>> - diversity >>>>=20 >>>> and seek to explain to the data and trends, and ideally also = provide >>> recommendations. >>>>=20 >>>> I do personally not think it would be helpful to add this to = draft-irtf- >>> hrpc-political, but it could indeed be a follow-up draft. I would be = happy >>> to support the writing of that with quantitative mailinglist = analysis. >>>>=20 >>>> I could also imagine this being part of this draft though: >>>>=20 >>>> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-02 >>>>=20 >>>> Where it might have more impact than in hrpc. >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers, >>>>=20 >>>> Niels >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> Eliot >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Niels ten Oever >>>> Researcher and PhD Candidate >>>> DATACTIVE Research Group >>>> University of Amsterdam >>>>=20 >>>> PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 >>>> 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 >=20 > -- > Niels ten Oever > Researcher and PhD Candidate > DATACTIVE Research Group > University of Amsterdam >=20 > PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 > 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --Apple-Mail=_BF6F2FFE-7AE1-453A-B243-69912CCAFF83 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 It = is in as much as participation is a factor in decisions made in = standards that affect societies.  However, my own interest in = seeing the IETF not become irrelevant is not relevant here, I must admit.

Eliot

On 12 = Jul 2019, at 13:49, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net> wrote:

Is = hrpc the right venue for this discussion though? Might fit better in IAB = or GEN AREA ? I don't want to get hrpc (and its chairs) into trouble = (again).

Cheers,

Niels

On 7/12/19 1:29 PM, = Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote:
Hi,

It's an interesting discussion.
To Niels point = on a "IETF/IRTF participation draft":
- Should the = evolution (and relative pervasiveness) of collaboration = technologies/means/practices also be factored in?
- For = the participation from academics, I could share some experience and = limited analysis on why some researchers participate, or don't or stop = to. IETF and IRTF have different implications.

--Laurent.

-----Original Message-----
From: = hrpc <hrpc-bounces@irtf.org> On Behalf Of Eliot Lear
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 13:09
To: Niels ten = Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: = draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt

Ok, it=E2=80= =99s fair enough to not have to cram everything in one draft.  I = must
admit my own concern about our self-selective = tendencies, not simply
because the disadvantage new = entrants, but because it will limit our
relevance over = time.

Eliot

On 12 Jul 2019, at = 13:04, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
wrote:

Signed PGP part
Hi Elliot,

On 7/12/19 12:10 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
Hi Niels
On 12 Jul 2019, at = 11:26, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net
<mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net>> wrote:

Many = people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not
intended to bring in = new people, this actually has become an official non-
goal = in the meeting venue selection process per draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-
venue-selection-process and = draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The
current consensus = seems to be that participating in the IETF is not
dependent = of physical participation, but can also be done through
mailinglists and remote tools.

As the editor of = draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, I
don=E2=80=99t think you should shy = away in your research from challenging that
where, in your = view, the IETF may have erred.

Don't worry, I will ;)

Whatever consensus the IETF has can change based on well = reasoned
argument, and the IRTF is expected = to provide that.  Maybe not
immediately, and maybe = not without other precipitating factors that either
don=E2=80= =99t exist today or are not yet readily apparent, but this is really = the
only way change happens.


I think the the issue of = participation would benefit from its own draft.
Ideally it could show several trends:

- = consolidation
-  total number of = participants/draft authors/RFC
authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated = to a low number of
organizations
- academic exodus
- = decreasing number of participants/draft authors/RFC
authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated = with an academic
institution
- geographical representation
- = diversity

and seek to explain to the data = and trends, and ideally also provide
recommendations.

I do personally not think it = would be helpful to add this to draft-irtf-
hrpc-political, but it could indeed be a = follow-up draft. I would be happy
to support the writing = of that with quantitative mailinglist analysis.

I could also imagine this being = part of this draft though:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidat= ion-02

Where it might have more impact = than in hrpc.

Cheers,

Niels


Eliot


--
Niels ten = Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
DATACTIVE = Research Group
University of Amsterdam

PGP fingerprint   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A = 9488
=             &n= bsp;    643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3





--
Niels ten = Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
DATACTIVE = Research Group
University of Amsterdam

PGP fingerprint   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A = 9488  
=             &n= bsp;     643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3

= --Apple-Mail=_BF6F2FFE-7AE1-453A-B243-69912CCAFF83-- --Apple-Mail=_CF36F795-CB7D-4E28-A58A-431BAD320F3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXSiA/gAKCRBugA9nE248 uKrUAKC1LGi21yaHqjku9MaKtDwlhAxotACg0wK3PDuluba39l41Y11glERYGMU= =H5LD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_CF36F795-CB7D-4E28-A58A-431BAD320F3B-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 05:57:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D04A12011E for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:57:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TN9JhuPs5r4g for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1162A120045 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.209.157.49] (port=60119 helo=glaroam2-191-236.wireless.gla.ac.uk) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hlv7N-0001qr-Lp; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:57:45 +0100 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A958F764-EBB5-41A4-BB0E-1F2D30689C9F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:57:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: <97570E86-8EB9-47DD-B914-63F7791FFB46@cisco.com> Cc: Niels ten Oever , "Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" , "hrpc@irtf.org" To: Eliot Lear References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <70160637-6afe-cf72-f81b-5c38e6bef52f@nielstenoever.net> <97570E86-8EB9-47DD-B914-63F7791FFB46@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 14 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Diverse participation (and the lack thereof) was: I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:57:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A958F764-EBB5-41A4-BB0E-1F2D30689C9F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I agree =E2=80=93 understanding the extent to which diversity and = inclusivity of the standards making community impacts the quality, = take-up, and impact of the resulting standards seems like an important = research topic.=20 Changing the way a standards organisation operates in order to enhance = diversity and inclusivity may be important, but doesn=E2=80=99t seem = like research.=20 Colin > On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:45, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > It is in as much as participation is a factor in decisions made in = standards that affect societies. However, my own interest in seeing the = IETF not become irrelevant is not relevant here, I must admit. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >> On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:49, Niels ten Oever > wrote: >>=20 >> Is hrpc the right venue for this discussion though? Might fit better = in IAB or GEN AREA ? I don't want to get hrpc (and its chairs) into = trouble (again).=20 >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >> Niels >>=20 >> On 7/12/19 1:29 PM, Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) = wrote: >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> It's an interesting discussion. >>> To Niels point on a "IETF/IRTF participation draft": >>> - Should the evolution (and relative pervasiveness) of collaboration = technologies/means/practices also be factored in? >>> - For the participation from academics, I could share some = experience and limited analysis on why some researchers participate, or = don't or stop to. IETF and IRTF have different implications. >>>=20 >>> --Laurent. >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: hrpc > = On Behalf Of Eliot Lear >>>> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 13:09 >>>> To: Niels ten Oever > >>>> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt >>>>=20 >>>> Ok, it=E2=80=99s fair enough to not have to cram everything in one = draft. I must >>>> admit my own concern about our self-selective tendencies, not = simply >>>> because the disadvantage new entrants, but because it will limit = our >>>> relevance over time. >>>>=20 >>>> Eliot >>>>=20 >>>>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:04, Niels ten Oever > >>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Signed PGP part >>>>> Hi Elliot, >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 7/12/19 12:10 PM, Eliot Lear wrote: >>>>>> Hi Niels >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 12 Jul 2019, at 11:26, Niels ten Oever = >>>> >> = wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Many people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not >>>> intended to bring in new people, this actually has become an = official non- >>>> goal in the meeting venue selection process per = draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc- >>>> venue-selection-process and draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The >>>> current consensus seems to be that participating in the IETF is not >>>> dependent of physical participation, but can also be done through >>>> mailinglists and remote tools. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> As the editor of = draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, I >>>> don=E2=80=99t think you should shy away in your research from = challenging that >>>> where, in your view, the IETF may have erred. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Don't worry, I will ;) >>>>>=20 >>>>> Whatever consensus the IETF has can change based on well reasoned >>>> argument, and the IRTF is expected to provide that. Maybe not >>>> immediately, and maybe not without other precipitating factors that = either >>>> don=E2=80=99t exist today or are not yet readily apparent, but this = is really the >>>> only way change happens. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think the the issue of participation would benefit from its own = draft. >>>> Ideally it could show several trends: >>>>>=20 >>>>> - consolidation >>>>> - total number of participants/draft authors/RFC >>>> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated to a low number of >>>> organizations >>>>> - academic exodus >>>>> - decreasing number of participants/draft authors/RFC >>>> authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated with an academic >>>> institution >>>>> - geographical representation >>>>> - diversity >>>>>=20 >>>>> and seek to explain to the data and trends, and ideally also = provide >>>> recommendations. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I do personally not think it would be helpful to add this to = draft-irtf- >>>> hrpc-political, but it could indeed be a follow-up draft. I would = be happy >>>> to support the writing of that with quantitative mailinglist = analysis. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I could also imagine this being part of this draft though: >>>>>=20 >>>>> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-02 = >>>>>=20 >>>>> Where it might have more impact than in hrpc. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Niels >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Eliot >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> -- >>>>> Niels ten Oever >>>>> Researcher and PhD Candidate >>>>> DATACTIVE Research Group >>>>> University of Amsterdam >>>>>=20 >>>>> PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 >>>>> 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Niels ten Oever >> Researcher and PhD Candidate >> DATACTIVE Research Group >> University of Amsterdam >>=20 >> PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 >> 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ --Apple-Mail=_A958F764-EBB5-41A4-BB0E-1F2D30689C9F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = agree =E2=80=93 understanding the extent to which diversity and = inclusivity of the standards making community impacts the quality, = take-up, and impact of the resulting standards seems like an important = research topic. 

Changing the way a standards organisation operates in order = to enhance diversity and inclusivity may be important, but doesn=E2=80=99t= seem like research. 

Colin




On 12 = Jul 2019, at 13:45, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

It is in as much as = participation is a factor in decisions made in standards that affect = societies.  However, my own interest in seeing the IETF not become = irrelevant is not relevant here, I must = admit.

Eliot

On 12 Jul 2019, at 13:49, Niels ten Oever = <mail@nielstenoever.net> wrote:

Is = hrpc the right venue for this discussion though? Might fit better in IAB = or GEN AREA ? I don't want to get hrpc (and its chairs) into trouble = (again).

Cheers,

Niels

On 7/12/19 1:29 PM, = Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote:
Hi,

It's an interesting discussion.
To Niels point = on a "IETF/IRTF participation draft":
- Should the = evolution (and relative pervasiveness) of collaboration = technologies/means/practices also be factored in?
- For = the participation from academics, I could share some experience and = limited analysis on why some researchers participate, or don't or stop = to. IETF and IRTF have different implications.

--Laurent.

-----Original Message-----
From: = hrpc <hrpc-bounces@irtf.org> On Behalf Of Eliot Lear
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 13:09
To: Niels ten = Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: = draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt

Ok, it=E2=80= =99s fair enough to not have to cram everything in one draft.  I = must
admit my own concern about our self-selective = tendencies, not simply
because the disadvantage new = entrants, but because it will limit our
relevance over = time.

Eliot

On 12 Jul 2019, at = 13:04, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net>
wrote:

Signed PGP part
Hi Elliot,

On 7/12/19 12:10 PM, Eliot Lear wrote:
Hi Niels
On 12 Jul 2019, at = 11:26, Niels ten Oever <mail@nielstenoever.net
<mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net>> wrote:

Many = people in the IETF are convinced that the meetings are not
intended to bring in = new people, this actually has become an official non-
goal = in the meeting venue selection process per draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-
venue-selection-process and = draft-krishnan-ietf-meeting-policy. The
current consensus = seems to be that participating in the IETF is not
dependent = of physical participation, but can also be done through
mailinglists and remote tools.

As the editor of = draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process, I
don=E2=80=99t think you should shy = away in your research from challenging that
where, in your = view, the IETF may have erred.

Don't worry, I will ;)

Whatever consensus the IETF has can change based on well = reasoned
argument, and the IRTF is expected = to provide that.  Maybe not
immediately, and maybe = not without other precipitating factors that either
don=E2=80= =99t exist today or are not yet readily apparent, but this is really = the
only way change happens.


I think the the issue of = participation would benefit from its own draft.
Ideally it could show several trends:

- = consolidation
-  total number of = participants/draft authors/RFC
authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated = to a low number of
organizations
- academic exodus
- = decreasing number of participants/draft authors/RFC
authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated = with an academic
institution
- geographical representation
- = diversity

and seek to explain to the data = and trends, and ideally also provide
recommendations.

I do personally not think it = would be helpful to add this to draft-irtf-
hrpc-political, but it could indeed be a = follow-up draft. I would be happy
to support the writing = of that with quantitative mailinglist analysis.

I could also imagine this being = part of this draft though:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidat= ion-02

Where it might have more impact = than in hrpc.

Cheers,

Niels


Eliot


--
Niels ten = Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
DATACTIVE = Research Group
University of Amsterdam

PGP fingerprint   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A = 9488
=             &n= bsp;    643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3





--
Niels ten = Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
DATACTIVE = Research Group
University of Amsterdam

PGP fingerprint   2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A = 9488  
=             &n= bsp;     643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc



-- 
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/




= --Apple-Mail=_A958F764-EBB5-41A4-BB0E-1F2D30689C9F-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 06:28:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B136A120047 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:28:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FXwR6iB-ox-g for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C30D012003F for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hlvaJ-000699-PL for hrpc@irtf.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:28:05 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: From: Mallory Knodel Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mallory@article19.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBEx0TWcBCAC8sirY3nlDnRwY6XWmsvZtM9kmEK6H8no3ZuQ723PKwHOddw1nOykh0in/ /QGRmwtyVzsfLh6/94UUZTn10oo+xGAfw2gf1on5IJTIiphykk732PNnUakVGWwHNKQquTVc kLrydUaFVMb89BAXqExBKlMg2ciEjzbYMCs3I/qZAZ0Wr5nF3RQS8O78elTNAgWTZ98yKTZV DlRoDpnvbfwtIPqnISoSjDEvEUBdpykvS3jHqlR1f6Mx6Xs97S5CORaer/0qTcDm0PAb1Z9l IhMsFl05tNt2FpgS4/RN8NyLasAQNOlScpTJbAfRuyyvRm1N8GLIL1KX+YYeLyqzhdhZABEB AAG0Jk1hbGxvcnkgS25vZGVsIDxtYWxsb3J5QGFydGljbGUxOS5vcmc+iQFWBBMBCABAAhsD BwsJCAcDAgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQTj62PgZaOyQLzZsHEMMqJxvTzHgAUCXH1h mgUJEepHrwAKCRAMMqJxvTzHgH3DCAC1sjJmg4+/VcESEzNkiF3KHEDCAssEaQl2FWfuXVvJ /mPliFtjpVv6EhdgUG5lbOcu12TCUWg42wHkE2kbDWXLE3f7HL+Nq0pEPVdMRXLxEfaOs2oR KGx8lh4k1UgYEpnARI486TklOAONKWdJKstEPrtt9LtysnjvhZvYCTzLKJC98c5wUvC46QYy +NdK6GB+uyVzW5kP2uUUBYxiCyHivGBbv77jcJAFVAk96ut1GFpeCCZM2WyYzer95b9n9a1B UGdJgEEVVbbBIQw7yMbMPqEwa8rpfig7QG72GieYItQjllHXGbOECiBcOHrGtrFWsHWxOxJV bZSoVq6sn1UUuQENBEx0TWcBCADiak/YuMW4BbaWL0U9sNg4zO3Qy1OFeye8fJjR8O/wWVSq cqA+sxjzRUee2fHCp6kVLedy6dVfiKmr59p21r4selOdslKaWmEGtz2oYnGpyPB/jKjfleE5 cIkXCdqgDAhfbfuVdF7heHpfhUy4m3yOJl2+CluT/CG9AfaCtyrwqMJzLWK4vmkGXxnBgb92 mGK0WFB2oRydz+SsiobgpCAqJSLcr8ZHQ54SbD9yxxYPv8IsSjt4eJoZCFI7INBsz4i7aj/q 4xcxQ+xiUwyqCZUvrzMxpw7c8TXuPHStDyhnsKkFjxhlY5avNeu0VPwk72C64I+y93gpPrL3 vL0tEmU9ABEBAAGJATwEGAECACYCGwwWIQTj62PgZaOyQLzZsHEMMqJxvTzHgAUCXH1hmgUJ EepHswAKCRAMMqJxvTzHgEDZCACcTamfNdBACpPHsmsJL1hbWertwYZg7h2rZtgmZQ9C2PMT OgkPPSsfi+xZ6PaXlvm2RI/TX51LbJsCJ9Fd2/WxKdtC0s6o7+0Cl3P57AORf3BRfl3zfXuy VhzjLvM9WhDiQM6JBqDuYxiYnjO56l+gozEuBAtUJaPIxGyggyS5eT8kKv8Szpc4g7/skZXq ccVOHj05KCOaFQ774rsIzcwppqJqGjh9X6nX6m2DONuBIYNXjH9U6FxHSJ6gRRxZkiz2/dDZ YqsHYlkKigH82r9gORhIGZkCd7xnRhyLOHnjjeKtIy5pvGwxUohy+y5l8i1155JEPNB7pphY xFxjMOQU Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:27:30 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: ba572e8a3bde05b4b19613c12a9e49fc Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Agenda for IETF 105 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:28:11 -0000 Hello, I've uploaded the agenda to the data tracker: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-105-hrpc/ The folks on the agenda for the meeting should get me their slides soones= t. Thank you and see you soon! -Mallory On 14/06/2019 13:08, Mallory Knodel wrote: > Hi everyone, >=20 > I'd like to start a thread about the agenda for discussion on the list. >=20 > * JC de Martin would like to talk about Ethical and Socially Aware > Data Labels, as per this research project: > https://nexa.polito.it/node/1515 >=20 > * Discussion on draft Political, and if it is ready for publication. >=20 > * Discussion on draft Association, led by the new editors Joe and St=C3= =A9phane. >=20 > * Discussion on recent updates to drafts Feminism and Guidelines. >=20 > * Moving from the Guidelines draft into short presentations on any > learnings gleaned from recent reviews informed by RFC 8280. >=20 > * AOB. >=20 > Are there any other items you would like to add to the agenda? Any othe= r > thoughts or ideas are also welcomed. >=20 > Thanks, > -Mallory >=20 --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Fri Jul 12 06:36:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A1F2120088 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:36:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yfiDxgkd67U9 for ; 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Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:36:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:36:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola To: Colin Perkins Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <11470975.2548.1562938578646@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <70160637-6afe-cf72-f81b-5c38e6bef52f@nielstenoever.net> <97570E86-8EB9-47DD-B914-63F7791FFB46@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.2-Rev8 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Diverse participation (and the lack thereof) was: I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:36:25 -0000 =20 =20



I agree =E2=80=93 understanding the extent to which diversity and = inclusivity of the standards making community impacts the quality, take-up,= and impact of the resulting standards seems like an important research top= ic. 

Changing the way a standards organisation operates in order to enhance = diversity and inclusivity may be important, but doesn=E2=80=99t seem like r= esearch.
Those seem useful steps #3 and #4 after step #1 - defining what do we me= an by "diversity and inclusivity" and how do we measure it - and step #2 - = measuring the current "diversity and inclusivity" and possibly how it chang= ed over time. And all the process up to step #3 looks like research.

I think that such research could still be part of HRPC's charter, as it = is sufficiently clear (or, at least, it is a reasonable assumption that cou= ld be tested as part of the research) that the features of the protocol-mak= ing community influence the protocols that it makes, and so part of "the re= lation between protocols and human rights" is a direct consequence of those= features; the community's view of human rights and of societal issues in g= eneral will be reflected in the protocols, and that view depends on who is = a member of the community.

Moreover, for members of the global technical community, a disadvantage = in access to the IETF is also a disadvantage in pursuing opportunities for = cultural and professional advancement, i.e. articles 22, 23, 26 and 27 of t= he UDHR.

However, it would just be easier if the chairs could ask "the powers tha= t be" whether they would like to have this issue discussed at HRPC or where= else.

-- 

Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open=
-Xchange
vittorio.b=
ertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Ital=
y
=20 From nobody Fri Jul 12 07:00:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39345120193 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:00:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l7lfxP2EsuhV for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A153E120129 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.209.157.49] (port=59239 helo=glaroam2-191-236.wireless.gla.ac.uk) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hlw6B-0003vp-Pp; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:00:37 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Colin Perkins X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <11470975.2548.1562938578646@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:00:31 +0100 Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3F0CE11C-0AD1-4488-8DC6-F71B3C85A86D@csperkins.org> References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <70160637-6afe-cf72-f81b-5c38e6bef52f@nielstenoever.net> <97570E86-8EB9-47DD-B914-63F7791FFB46@cisco.com> <11470975.2548.1562938578646@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> To: Vittorio Bertola X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Diverse participation (and the lack thereof) was: I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:00:41 -0000 Vittorio, > On 12 Jul 2019, at 14:36, Vittorio Bertola = wrote: >> I agree =E2=80=93 understanding the extent to which diversity and = inclusivity of the standards making community impacts the quality, = take-up, and impact of the resulting standards seems like an important = research topic.=20 >>=20 >> Changing the way a standards organisation operates in order to = enhance diversity and inclusivity may be important, but doesn=E2=80=99t = seem like research. > Those seem useful steps #3 and #4 after step #1 - defining what do we = mean by "diversity and inclusivity" and how do we measure it - and step = #2 - measuring the current "diversity and inclusivity" and possibly how = it changed over time. And all the process up to step #3 looks like = research.=20 I agree. > I think that such research could still be part of HRPC's charter, as = it is sufficiently clear (or, at least, it is a reasonable assumption = that could be tested as part of the research) that the features of the = protocol-making community influence the protocols that it makes, and so = part of "the relation between protocols and human rights" is a direct = consequence of those features; the community's view of human rights and = of societal issues in general will be reflected in the protocols, and = that view depends on who is a member of the community.=20 I agree that such a research question could be phrased in a manner = compatible with the HRPC charter.=20 > Moreover, for members of the global technical community, a = disadvantage in access to the IETF is also a disadvantage in pursuing = opportunities for cultural and professional advancement, i.e. articles = 22, 23, 26 and 27 of the UDHR.=20 Perhaps, but that does not seem like a research question.=20 > However, it would just be easier if the chairs could ask "the powers = that be" whether they would like to have this issue discussed at HRPC or = where else.=20 I=E2=80=99d be happy to discuss this further with the chairs, if they = think it useful to do so.=20 Regards, Colin --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Fri Jul 12 08:05:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E92C12046E for ; 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Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:05:27 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u6CED-eAXhFK; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:05:26 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2FFACBE2C; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:05:26 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1562943926; bh=/PCxvrlKKpRf97D8lf/krt4Z5IE7fZ6YZnWNteG9/A0=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=RHKZGoiA9lMSWZVwiDTpv7Mh7UR5ThrMYfiFtdEjqRPzxxJuIs300O27v3knYwBxQ 4QgPUrtg6Wg/wX+YkvU1/nQU5cNIBpeTzNzilCNyHxSkxqYf+0RM2QaBuTZbloLZJe 72FXB6Gx47HaPU93RI51FL+m17AkbZvcQI1xWLC8= To: Niels ten Oever , Eliot Lear Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="08p7RcotzwLV4W6pgGZJuIlRF5BXb8xW9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:05:36 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --08p7RcotzwLV4W6pgGZJuIlRF5BXb8xW9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="a6s3NLcfPUJOZGzHyuSS9U31SARvxcEhm"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Niels ten Oever , Eliot Lear Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: --a6s3NLcfPUJOZGzHyuSS9U31SARvxcEhm Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------38ECA4FF5D8E5BF22DD0AD27" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------38ECA4FF5D8E5BF22DD0AD27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, FWIW, I don't think participation in the IETF is a useful question for hrpc, though it is a useful question to study. As to a venue, I'd say first do the work required and only then bother to worry about venues - if the work is good, people will find a place/way to discuss it in the IETF. Meanwhile, more specifically... On 12/07/2019 12:04, Niels ten Oever wrote: > I think the the issue of participation would benefit from its own > draft. Ideally it could show several trends: Hmm - that "Ideally" is very odd. As I read it (which may not be how it was meant) it implies a desire to find such trends, which seems like the wrong place to start. >=20 > - consolidation - total number of participants/draft authors/RFC > authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated to a low number of > organizations - academic exodus=20 "Exodus" reinforces the impression above. From my POV I have not noticed changes in academic participation over the last decade or so, other than perhaps a very small uptick. Compared to 20+ years ago, yes, I think there are fewer academics at IETF meetings. But I don't have numbers and without those none of this can really be properly analysed. So, the first step here is not, IMO, asking any powers that be, but doing the background work if someone has the time and interest. (I'd be interested in the results, but don't have the time nor really enough interest to do the work, sorry;-) Cheers, S. > - decreasing number of > participants/draft authors/RFC authors/mailinglist contributors is > affiliated with an academic institution - geographical > representation - diversity --------------38ECA4FF5D8E5BF22DD0AD27 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=cehhRJJ8; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=Tr9PgCSN Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSe-1MyvRDd1 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41B6D1205D9 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA160BCD05 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:14:17 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1562944457; bh=otngOHya0fVGsWUs6FzG3YiCoBXzoy3s9BOxCca1Sfk=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=cehhRJJ8bULSG9/9nTS+GAz2JBuRmGInkFYgipFM+zgT8npf3mLZMErWZq6io+NSP 8Dkqv6GaGxRlwr17GBwacQNr+ZdbIQa9OAuyzWG1UvbLzCl/TD5pgV3EU2HAX51j5Z 4EEmfsPCgIVkf1ep6AmDHe7XBGEdaa1oJQdgzE8Y= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YZ7qgn-G9HlX for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:14:16 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:14:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1562944456; bh=otngOHya0fVGsWUs6FzG3YiCoBXzoy3s9BOxCca1Sfk=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=Tr9PgCSNtwSxe1+hExK9VVhY9iYsYOcl2Xr3MCwOjpM68alzYrKBkChtSFWcK6mPj YJvu6uMJ3e8Z4/epkS4Gy1ArGLhQQhdGKVLyJFGJYAtow/MFe8mpi1M6WAJA6SBemH Gff3IXm7kFmWeuDxbIhxveIY5aI+sg3NT/ig/2SQ= From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20190712151414.wprdpdcktxzlohgg@mx4.yitter.info> References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:14:54 -0000 Hi, On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 06:42:59PM -0500, Juliana Guerra wrote: > Hello Niels, I've read your I-D and I can't say something else than I > think it's very interesting and you've synthesized very well the > previous versions. And I'm not sure if it is out of the draft scope, but > in ietf-lac (1) there is a recent (and also a long term, as I've seen) > discussion on lac community participation in IETF. Some of the issues > are: > > - the possibility for lac community to publish RFCs > - meetings in Lac region > - participation fees The discussion the above kicked off made me realise something I hadn't been able to put my finger on before, but that has probably been part of my concern about the way draft-irtf-hrpc-political has framed things all along. There are actually two classes of claim in the draft, and they can be separated: 1. The processes by which protocols get adopted are [at least partly] political. 2. Protocols are [or are not] inherently political [or politically charged, or whatever]. It seems to me that there are a number of cases where the distinction between these two is not maintained rigorously, or else a necessary premise linking them (we could call it 1.5: "Anything that is adopted through a poltical process is itself political") is going unstated. Section 4.5 is where this happens most strongly, because the move from the Postman claims to the points of DeNardis about the processes appears to be used to support proposition type 2 whereas DeNardis is actually arguing for 1. I don't know if I am alone in thinking this is not quite as explicit as it ought to be. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Fri Jul 12 08:42:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FF01206E2 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:41:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O7YLDbdEQ7mn for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 510D0120715 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:41:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4091; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1562946115; x=1564155715; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=o9BTxzf2JszUX3E+70SwY5A5kFFOL7PQeCD0er1HaC4=; b=YHTCk+mNeBArqAGIkiwf7faEqHfuQDo3qTasYV4YY48KjIGh6QOIXCJq cEg5bfuQfLC1SbC0yBd2ITx4PaGgvlqC813OXrzvpxz7SQDvYDtM80HrM fqpWG5nSBvMmokvP4mb5G+akUAVDOQnlYG0XEO8epqa6VsydRuZxXe42S A=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AEAAC1qShd/xbLJq1lGgEBAQEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEHAgEBAQGBUwUBAQEBCwGBFIJwKIQciBxfi1ElhzKLRoYCgXsCBwEBAQk?= =?us-ascii?q?DAQEvAQGEQAKCeTQJDgEDAQEEAQECAQVthUiFSgEBAQECASNWBQsLBBQqAgJ?= =?us-ascii?q?XBhODIgGBew+rdYEyhUeEZRCBNAGBUIolgX+BEScME4JMPodOMoImBJRxlXE?= =?us-ascii?q?JghuCH4EMkGAbikOCcopSoXaDCwIEBgUCFYFQOIFYMxoIGxVlAYJBPpBJPQM?= =?us-ascii?q?wkGoBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,483,1557187200"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="14175732" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 12 Jul 2019 15:41:52 +0000 Received: from [10.61.168.132] ([10.61.168.132]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6CFfpXX014564 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:41:52 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DF7D072A-105E-4D8B-BED5-1348548F2E67"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:41:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org To: Stephen Farrell References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.168.132, [10.61.168.132] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:41:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DF7D072A-105E-4D8B-BED5-1348548F2E67 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_25278EAA-10EE-4DE6-8483-C8DE4DA48A47" --Apple-Mail=_25278EAA-10EE-4DE6-8483-C8DE4DA48A47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Stephen, > On 12 Jul 2019, at 17:05, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 > FWIW, I don't think participation in the IETF is a useful > question for hrpc, though it is a useful question to study. I think you need to support this statement based on my previous message. = That is- if one has an inability to effectively participate in the = setting of defacto standards that impact one=E2=80=99s own society, = isn=E2=80=99t one disenfranchised from protecting against whatever human = rights impacts our work has? Or is that in itself not a human right, = and merely some form of privilege? Eliot --Apple-Mail=_25278EAA-10EE-4DE6-8483-C8DE4DA48A47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Stephen,

On 12 Jul 2019, at 17:05, = Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

FWIW, I don't think = participation in the IETF is a useful
question for hrpc, though it is a useful question to = study.


I think you need to support this = statement based on my previous message.  That is- if one has an = inability to effectively participate in the = setting of defacto standards that impact one=E2=80=99s own society, = isn=E2=80=99t one disenfranchised from protecting against whatever human = rights impacts our work has?  Or is that in itself not a human = right, and merely some form of privilege?

Eliot
= --Apple-Mail=_25278EAA-10EE-4DE6-8483-C8DE4DA48A47-- --Apple-Mail=_DF7D072A-105E-4D8B-BED5-1348548F2E67 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXSiqPwAKCRBugA9nE248 uPkvAKCcl6INfv9bgt2djd0CrP/77uqc9QCfU8Xj80YhIHKllcx9F2bpb0F7PDc= =91O2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_DF7D072A-105E-4D8B-BED5-1348548F2E67-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 08:46:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062071206F0 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:46:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:46:28 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1562946389; bh=zuWkRsnihzpc8jMHMZjMbUeDR1YGii9ydYiL8QDpI8I=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=jSpJb1AU6BfqOten5I5Xbwr9uK3tXxwaLbsYeiOU2ui1hA8GbtoI+FqZTjc8zHIg/ I7yGvKHORO6iWEt9fraTvipGl1YR5xV2ZIddye7vYsxAVrURY6vPt4wFoCr0vXV+y2 VKGNint2ALK0msze2ciOPZBIalaoVujSt77aQtDc= To: Eliot Lear Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, Niels ten Oever References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <5a67c26b-21d1-3271-a89c-418b29486e17@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:46:27 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="j97UaZfhilQsuOgew1sVqQ4SZn8jSSaDz" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:46:37 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --j97UaZfhilQsuOgew1sVqQ4SZn8jSSaDz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="QX4qFgkOymo8Ygb2WtQqBwNsL8vBEz81U"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eliot Lear Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <5a67c26b-21d1-3271-a89c-418b29486e17@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> --QX4qFgkOymo8Ygb2WtQqBwNsL8vBEz81U Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F97680344DCFA38A76894031" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F97680344DCFA38A76894031 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/07/2019 16:41, Eliot Lear wrote: > Stephen, >=20 >> On 12 Jul 2019, at 17:05, Stephen Farrell >> wrote: >>=20 >> FWIW, I don't think participation in the IETF is a useful question >> for hrpc, though it is a useful question to study. >=20 >=20 > I think you need to support this statement based on my previous > message. That is- if one has an inability to effectively participate > in the setting of defacto standards that impact one=E2=80=99s own socie= ty, > isn=E2=80=99t one disenfranchised from protecting against whatever huma= n > rights impacts our work has? Or is that in itself not a human right, > and merely some form of privilege? I do not consider participation in the IETF, not attendance at IETF meetings, a human right, no. I might just about accept the right to education implies a right to the potential to be a person who could participate in the IETF, but better just to treat education as a right I think. After that I don't care if we do or don't call participating in the IETF a privilege or a PITA, as it's a mixture of both:-) Cheers, S. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list=20 > hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --------------F97680344DCFA38A76894031 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 47K9Wkiygyxm for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4EB01200E6 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hlxxm-0002P7-0z for hrpc@irtf.org; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:59:58 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:59:57 +0000 (UTC) From: Mallory Knodel To: hrpc Message-ID: <1673396859.3670450.1562947197503.JavaMail.zimbra@article19.org> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.7.11_GA_3800 (zclient/8.7.11_GA_3800) Thread-Topic: New datatracker feature: Allow presenters to upload slides Thread-Index: F83g5CwJ7tTj5Dls4zp71NfyDm1doQ== X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 51a43cd7ff6838d9e9bce89dbcde6c26 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Fwd: [irsg] New datatracker feature: Allow presenters to upload slides X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:00:06 -0000 Hi all, To add to my request for slides, please see below! -M ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Robert Sparks To: IETF WG Chairs Sent: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:51:56 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [irsg] New datatracker feature: Allow presenters to upload slides Shortly after IETF 104, we added the ability for presenters to upload slides and suggesting to the chairs that they be added to a session. On the meeting materials page for a group (for example ) anyone logged in who is not a chair/secretary for the group gets a [Suggest New Slides] button. When they upload slides using that, the chairs will get email, and the suggestions will appear in a new block on that page. Chairs can then accept or reject each suggestion. 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Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YRXA5mbcehNbtK8KbycHYaEr25EuwSufu" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:26:54 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --YRXA5mbcehNbtK8KbycHYaEr25EuwSufu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="f9WhGQz6iHRlMT2FHwx2LaIQVeUcQa3qT"; protected-headers="v1" From: Melinda Shore To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: --f9WhGQz6iHRlMT2FHwx2LaIQVeUcQa3qT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/12/19 3:08 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Ok, it=E2=80=99s fair enough to not have to cram everything in one draf= t. I > must admit my own concern about our self-selective tendencies, not > simply because the disadvantage new entrants, but because it will > limit our relevance over time. I also think that's something of a mischaracterization of the discussion, to be honest. Melinda --=20 Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis --f9WhGQz6iHRlMT2FHwx2LaIQVeUcQa3qT-- --YRXA5mbcehNbtK8KbycHYaEr25EuwSufu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iRcpp2248FAl0owtcACgkQ37iRcpp2 249rbhAAhb20lNb7Kun2Ja+0EO/cibdxZC/3OjhAF8Zldmwri5hcAMTofIGdL1vq hAlV0Z3WzYt4a+4XjbsAfiIYNDiEULkAen7SOv5uPyUnKlFpi/mMXmCsU+6BLbrL 0l5YMvg48Gi/XNCUWgl9dDDM59UA6XgQAduyaU6DJTzCipMZ/7hPKa6q85JeZDVG wQz31pP3Mz9h05uxVK3fDpasWl0LjyRxH6yzwmabcjYGSM/oWTJ8skTAEr54PhYR sZlnknRJ8WeNsrjx4Zh0MG8YkqAkyNpERK6Hi/9OiozrcbZggCgUjBEhjY498X3/ iF8i1YjFg4NzaIuNhI5Bx5Cf8tABdTsWPvUWIXPOh5rDD7I+RUgD+mR2tlqQaF4p kqBWkwTanJ0bUbNW+HeHULUs1vNY8QrOH5Ed2/bNaNO3JiFu2TTJhYE5qKMaeadJ MLa0wm2oDt4mPFnmSGm29zLKZit596uKS8yFpelJKZFfoiBskSkHd9n5WcfCEb/s Q8HyGAKqAkjrVDQNZXSFuqwWH8Rjjr5Xe+qA32Dc28BXJDbdSTBfNzwaXuQpAOxk Fj0eahRCi5ULSDAGC4MyUnqQYoqWSsCPzn0IGh5Nw7lUhdv/j7ocwbd9s2AaWrCt iFWh9mJdSbzEuIbgfYXlLl5y8Dh6GUl1myMqjl1VDAhptWFNVWk= =pfsd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YRXA5mbcehNbtK8KbycHYaEr25EuwSufu-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 10:29:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5EE1203C2 for ; 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Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:29:02 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1562952542; bh=16TPbjrZBc5JcfTit+g1F6n9L415OD+nyFMIWo+OleQ=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=S9NNzWabLQhd1FQNuW4U1n1/+O/koRi36teoLaAnr+6+N0A1sMiUoS+hij2nRCcn3 x2Wy2TNo73iXM113mwfjfB8jXnTJE8EuzvYdvn5OzGeUEsZUfIRo8KOihsHCUIH2yO IEgJUZjK4VqbpeH0XxJNQBs+jnmrTaYJU0Ie2j8yNpNUJ+dwaFrLl1aaNm0yiRqwJa xmlVDx++LkiAkEfIAwgk+ttWzSJuuC7fga9f4GF27k5L6m1cAY1dZuXLHX4bAuUNcR cH4oT5/2Wgg4BJGJ7/q/gsaO/ujnzX2kPJd8NL/Qj2m0rFtDS2iIxdB6QTaYA6Gf4p UOu/zKt7MxA9w== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F1853C035A; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:29:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:29:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola To: Stephen Farrell Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <287405995.3024.1562952542137@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <5a67c26b-21d1-3271-a89c-418b29486e17@cs.tcd.ie> References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> <5a67c26b-21d1-3271-a89c-418b29486e17@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.2-Rev8 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:29:07 -0000 On 12/07/2019 17:46, Stephen Farrell wrote: > On 12/07/2019 16:41, Eliot Lear wrote: > > I think you need to support this statement based on my previous > > message. That is- if one has an inability to effectively participate > > in the setting of defacto standards that impact one=E2=80=99s own socie= ty, > > isn=E2=80=99t one disenfranchised from protecting against whatever huma= n > > rights impacts our work has? Or is that in itself not a human right, > > and merely some form of privilege? >=20 > I do not consider participation in the IETF, not attendance > at IETF meetings, a human right, no. This is the second point I made in my earlier message, but I think that the= key one is the first, which is slightly different: if having an Internet (= and the society/economy that it promotes) that respects everyone's human ri= ghts is necessary for those human rights to be fulfilled, and if the techni= cal decisions made at the IETF (i.e. protocol specs) influence the socioeco= nomic direction of the Internet, and if the internal diversity of participa= nts influences the technical decisions made at the IETF, then ensuring appr= opriate diversity among IETF participants (and thus, appropriate participat= ion opportunities) is necessary to ensure that the Internet generates a soc= iety in which human rights are respected. It is a long chain of ifs, but I = find it reasonable at least as a research item to explore. --=20 =20 Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com=20 Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Fri Jul 12 10:31:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC3B1203A3 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:31:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=jzouDMGi; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=Ob3o92KA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K_q-XsDf8LdP for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50799120310 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E69EBCD05 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:30:36 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1562952636; bh=rLMqDKvUmmIuQHo8Vq3uIRQoT0I6O4fO1G6oghWKkG8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=jzouDMGim8OQeNR7DYsnpJK9ZUpStY2bmh/u7FeurG9MDC0TKOTjEr0GJm+X/OeUq CqO/bXuDmq7jpyhAJe5ZJowWCwQWRW6UVAW2Wv48H5LLiVU7DRmE1VptO82spbpcxp BfoMl17zFslrozpYqfztuKw8igN9EsePnsN7EvRY= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O5Blzr3FnJ0W for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:30:35 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:30:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1562952635; bh=rLMqDKvUmmIuQHo8Vq3uIRQoT0I6O4fO1G6oghWKkG8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=Ob3o92KAXXonQdujaTR02+del44VafxEj7+VHI+7pHlfqi+9tetFGbonWFgGYNCvX a1Y64w7BXd87OKiEUAP8lsmpEG/2I4KN9PQWUKxB+o4ON/SoyjaAHy/BJDiQOl1M7C 6og7dOMlHWPX9TDjX3o/UJMqXT4of1rmcKmjybjI= From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20190712173033.n5p2remkqt6mwryr@mx4.yitter.info> References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <20190712151414.wprdpdcktxzlohgg@mx4.yitter.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190712151414.wprdpdcktxzlohgg@mx4.yitter.info> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:31:09 -0000 On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 11:14:15AM -0400, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Hi, [&c.] I apologise for forgetting my usual disclaimer: individual hat &c &c. The ISOC policies are not formally for IRTF as well, but probably in my case it's wisest to make it explicit. 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Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ztqZBpsmAK6Or299LsdTX8djl6CQjgACm" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:38:21 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ztqZBpsmAK6Or299LsdTX8djl6CQjgACm Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="BWBMhgKnRwWxEmOYSzjWg0fPDmvltBLUW"; protected-headers="v1" From: Melinda Shore To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <4aad3bb1-b1ab-c853-5e85-59e895ee3862@nomountain.net> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> --BWBMhgKnRwWxEmOYSzjWg0fPDmvltBLUW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/12/19 7:41 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > I think you need to support this statement based on my previous message= =2E > =C2=A0That is- if one has an inability to *effectively=C2=A0*participat= e in the > setting of defacto standards that impact one=E2=80=99s own society, isn= =E2=80=99t one > disenfranchised from protecting against whatever human rights impacts > our work has? =C2=A0Or is that in itself not a human right, and merely = some > form of privilege? I think we need to be clear that people do not have to attend IETF meetings to influence internet standards, at least in theory. We (alas) do tend to stray from the expectation that the IETF does its work (including coming to consensus) on mailing lists, but that is, in fact, how we are expected to work. That said, I also question whether or not this discussion is in-scope for HRPC. The question you ask above might be, but the one specifically about IETF meeting venue choice is not. Melinda --=20 Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis --BWBMhgKnRwWxEmOYSzjWg0fPDmvltBLUW-- --ztqZBpsmAK6Or299LsdTX8djl6CQjgACm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iRcpp2248FAl0oxYkACgkQ37iRcpp2 248EEg//dJRvWfSKZVr5WZyOzPbp2iB1J1u70cFYOR5qnziqI0EZ4aYwV4qLlIw/ kOj6DZAunTHFMSOdg5lRLdQhsJ3Og/O2pxEGzgomasp32/1fPqPyfKhNIkmwSOBZ JC1LvaL2/zZutuOsowsFPO/XNwvybfefDDqMCqnLPhhJoscJISJGO3yvDODvfUDg Sp7oZ5nRwF5JbrlQKyh9ssWrLeDjFxyJv0FUTSDf1+CVi0HIq8raqiZRRdKsILnm oCtN2f8gijNLe1qU2HsTnm3BDEnFiGHhe9pI19C+inUhjK8t8NfOYCXvkluC7HLT AwkR7/E5tRHvdd0hNuaT2eJyOxHHuOqUy1bpjZuPCvN4VQWBxOrrAOuZzRKZRc81 T+E8Yn8/1u9e+8VkIA49qujISdOV6huP72aCOy+kfNKLt1iHzXBIw7pTJmeM9hV5 ETYedTGY9XDvtvbqDRbxtqhZVLfxlAcMHnbJ8XKngkSZQi/a3r3+XB+ua2DYqw7T WKWMJMRj+O6GA4zhA5+aZZ6CFh9s0Y2Qf2EtKele3eGRiKZpCPWmLApNygnzVXl3 9Nzc8K19IcikTA55SXw1QiLnY984s8JCOYlcrwJnaUhv3XVwL8Y0+H4ijIEkHoYK jb3x1B+BsCrvUKjYxOmSUg0j0v1QzCWKBnREoGopiuAh7xV1Q5w= =LOqx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ztqZBpsmAK6Or299LsdTX8djl6CQjgACm-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 10:42:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF7712046C for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=lPqnBmaS; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yitter.info header.b=K0BJWk0o Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NHzK0vVMkHsb for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.yitter.info (mx4.yitter.info [159.203.56.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4D9E120134 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E2BBCD05 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:41:40 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1562953300; bh=gYjfbF4X5h/iQZUGmB17j1CmzvIfNu7FF7NwEqg5SH8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=lPqnBmaSWaBplYmyRH9/SXwwZUeIazI/emWLw5Yc9LleagZFye/FYSPBDnnoav1KA xrtKlTunIrBP14mpGR6HRRQACDJWEP8y/NnO7fj27a/GffE+PtzS/eRe1uYp/AqqJ6 LNhV02GL5CSUpZxgTzhaRT5Nj3uGImda9daW2T+A= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at crankycanuck.ca Received: from mx4.yitter.info ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx4.yitter.info [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lzOQRlZBy9mh for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:41:39 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:41:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yitter.info; s=default; t=1562953299; bh=gYjfbF4X5h/iQZUGmB17j1CmzvIfNu7FF7NwEqg5SH8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=K0BJWk0oM8uz4WKivkeFoDotgDBCa2qYR8AJGwYWbuMT05Tyj7i0en757Ci2hfjUl 25hQ5Ri/D+lEtjV2gMZO4bIN/osNRzOD4rnuLC3ECBLRmY8vFAPobiJt4qHWF+cUMU ve7RLZyiGu8Dj5Wb0Aq2rnJeH9yb6hWJMUEUjmoM= From: Andrew Sullivan To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20190712174138.uwtm44syeqndnkog@mx4.yitter.info> References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> <5a67c26b-21d1-3271-a89c-418b29486e17@cs.tcd.ie> <287405995.3024.1562952542137@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <287405995.3024.1562952542137@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:42:14 -0000 Hi, Speaking only for me as usual. On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 07:29:02PM +0200, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > If having an Internet (and the society/economy that it promotes) that respects everyone's human rights is necessary for those human rights to be fulfilled This premise can't possibly be true. If it were true, then it would be the case that human rights could not be fulfilled without the Internet. But of course, one presumes that human rights could have been fulfulled before 1983 or so, and nobody had the Internet then (or even, arguably, an internet -- but whatever. Cast back to 1968 if you must). So the premise fails. Of course, that doesn't mean the consequent is not true, but it means at least that you'd need some _other_ premise by which the consequent would be true. > , and if the technical decisions made at the IETF (i.e. protocol specs) influence the socioeconomic direction of the Internet, and if the internal diversity of participants influences the technical decisions made at the IETF, then ensuring appropriate diversity among IETF participants (and thus, appropriate participation opportunities) is necessary to ensure that the Internet generates a society in which human rights are respected. > The consequent doesn't follow here in any case, because mere "influence" in the socioeconomic direction and technical decisions would not rise to meet the requirement of the necessity of diversity. For instasnce, the influencers could simply take into account the interests of those not participating. Which of course happens all the time, since many of the protocols that are developed are intended for use in customer-facing equipment, and the later purchase of such equipment by users who were not involved in the technical development serves at least as _prima facie_ evidence that those who were "in the room" got it right. More generally, it is simply false that an interest can be represented effectively only by someone who shares directly that interest, or voting eligibility in human societies would never change. So, this _might_ be an interesting topic to investigate, but the above line of thinking does not make one too optimistic about the fruitfulness of that line of inquiry. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com From nobody Fri Jul 12 10:53:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060E7120881 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:52:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ybDJ3fqsCXLu for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A7B412085C for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hlziP-0004Zx-EA; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:52:44 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:52:12 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20190712175212.GA3846@mir> References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <20190712151414.wprdpdcktxzlohgg@mx4.yitter.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190712151414.wprdpdcktxzlohgg@mx4.yitter.info> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 54a52893e10ae071b73780542c02a8d9e3f33e6f X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 10fb2eeb1e6a32429c7ce102d6ec6cdf Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:52:59 -0000 --YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 11:14:15AM -0400, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Hi, >=20 > On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 06:42:59PM -0500, Juliana Guerra wrote: > > Hello Niels, I've read your I-D and I can't say something else than I > > think it's very interesting and you've synthesized very well the > > previous versions. And I'm not sure if it is out of the draft scope, but > > in ietf-lac (1) there is a recent (and also a long term, as I've seen) > > discussion on lac community participation in IETF. Some of the issues > > are: > >=20 > > - the possibility for lac community to publish RFCs > > - meetings in Lac region > > - participation fees >=20 > The discussion the above kicked off made me realise something I hadn't > been able to put my finger on before, but that has probably been part > of my concern about the way draft-irtf-hrpc-political has framed > things all along. >=20 > There are actually two classes of claim in the draft, and they can be > separated: >=20 > 1. The processes by which protocols get adopted are [at least > partly] political. >=20 > 2. Protocols are [or are not] inherently political [or > politically charged, or whatever]. >=20 > It seems to me that there are a number of cases where the distinction > between these two is not maintained rigorously, or else a necessary > premise linking them (we could call it 1.5: "Anything that is adopted > through a poltical process is itself political") is going unstated. >=20 > Section 4.5 is where this happens most strongly, because the move from > the Postman claims to the points of DeNardis about the processes > appears to be used to support proposition type 2 whereas DeNardis is > actually arguing for 1. >=20 Section 4 solely documents positions that have been observed in the IETF, I= RTF and couples them with academic literature on this topic. The draft is n= ot judging the validity or consistency of these positions.=20 Best, Niels > I don't know if I am alone in thinking this is not quite as explicit > as it ought to be. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > A >=20 > --=20 > Andrew Sullivan > ajs@anvilwalrusden.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAl0oyMwACgkQDtg/OkaK yLNMwhAAmzS1TZrTO/iZP19liQvGWnEj3bI9CQNJvs06mhuU1DIlJhfOe0gWBTYd uFN9V/eY+tlm6i5yN97MaYd3ILMEqHzLvhRLQqAR8ax1nvUVOadd7UgGgPnnf2ig oj59HS4UoSwIas7vCWCXOIJSRuJv0T0eVbpUe2UQ6wRRKe23z6Dyp977GK3fkXYb RF+zqcNdpA/r+dghVM47ehy+ULw4gF//FKyTu0uY5i5OsMP5zKeSmUvAnAgYLLjL K1GzMvo23tpLQ9mZQiZhiwWf0lRljSm5HS3CaXVw96i9kycesNVvVMYkiofdn1iW sf+ZdD+FS4owGvn3DSYlWXtrw7+yjRHpIu3Lu0f4Y5FH/rWV8pGaGoIdSWZpNFIU WoSpj+JgJKVqnI80k/icbibl0J4d9Tv+Ld47MnVaiehq6azCcIotBows972I9GQr /zDs1BYT/9Jw2SoH5quOO95ElQ3WuU6niFf++thrfOImaRBheTi1MQz2+00QTQjK tk/EXCiYYYg3N74x7MhQxQS3xOY0WSOkaSVdjr05mPVamim5nO9IQKEhN5jFEljZ ry+Cxj2zRE0RsDeAhSEGrlroYfn9LL5h3sfVs0RYG0DHfDyz4EHE75S7SQw7X+d3 n8hS0kWMXjWPXDq2EEvR1Y4lut2UmPygj1ovyV6jAu+T/Ziqnz4= =8PGH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 10:56:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C441204C2 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:56:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3_tKKW7ncb0l for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B36CF1200F3 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hlzmk-0005Pp-KG; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:56:43 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:56:41 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Eliot Lear , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20190712175641.GB3846@mir> References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="O5XBE6gyVG5Rl6Rj" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 54a52893e10ae071b73780542c02a8d9e3f33e6f X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 27b922e39ba943ef41a3b4c3f0284049 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:56:49 -0000 --O5XBE6gyVG5Rl6Rj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 04:05:24PM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > FWIW, I don't think participation in the IETF is a useful > question for hrpc,=20 I agree. > though it is a useful question to study. I agree here too. > As to a venue, I'd say first do the work required and only > then bother to worry about venues - if the work is good, > people will find a place/way to discuss it in the IETF. I think quite a few of the mentioned things can be shown with BigBang, have= a look at the notebooks: https://github.com/datactive/bigbang/tree/master/examples >=20 > Meanwhile, more specifically... >=20 > On 12/07/2019 12:04, Niels ten Oever wrote: > > I think the the issue of participation would benefit from its own > > draft. Ideally it could show several trends: >=20 > Hmm - that "Ideally" is very odd. As I read it (which may > not be how it was meant) it implies a desire to find such > trends, which seems like the wrong place to start. >=20 I meant ideally trends would be found and backed up with rigorous analysis,= a documented methods, and a dataset so that the expiriment is reproducible= =2E=20 > >=20 > > - consolidation - total number of participants/draft authors/RFC > > authors/mailinglist contributors is affiliated to a low number of > > organizations - academic exodus=20 >=20 > "Exodus" reinforces the impression above.=20 These were all just hypothesis that one could seek to prove or disprove. > From my POV I > have not noticed changes in academic participation over the > last decade or so, other than perhaps a very small uptick. > Compared to 20+ years ago, yes, I think there are fewer > academics at IETF meetings. But I don't have numbers and > without those none of this can really be properly analysed. >=20 > So, the first step here is not, IMO, asking any powers that > be, but doing the background work if someone has the time > and interest. (I'd be interested in the results, but don't > have the time nor really enough interest to do the work, > sorry;-) >=20 Am happy to put in work, if other people are interested too.=20 Cheers, Niels > Cheers, > S. >=20 > > - decreasing number of > > participants/draft authors/RFC authors/mailinglist contributors is > > affiliated with an academic institution - geographical > > representation - diversity pub RSA 4096/7B172BEA 2017-12-22 Stephen Farrell (2017) > sub RSA 4096/36CB8BB6 2017-12-22 >=20 --=20 Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --O5XBE6gyVG5Rl6Rj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAl0oydkACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMxnA//XHbDqdN2Mus8XvBKM4Ha76Jx+8bNTLU9fkoqFLcZItJNvy8rTzejnxvk 6t/Tda1W3qU4mGsmN/BWzDvlWzM5MzH7zjTp5Cw4L+wqvuLydUinoKTMBDhwon2g k9mURU2m5/WfAPb1/Nt2OeSVmLlnohwKFzC8dLYZSekN+AZCLXLfq2pNsWLVsGoE opdUjShvTmKAEVv5y6gF+bXU42SBWbbrmJYGs3Bc1D44C0i72nm7YP0O+MaKk114 FdAb1XHRmar3Z27S9x1jhpc6PJfBmLqMHjn1KCqcZ24lO7ljqUKgQUFAISk0eX3j W120g6KTuWMnlvfcmL9N0Otm1zRts6LLaz4foQ2xIfH1veuFaAUyddrcHwKYPEi1 QRaIftwYJMGz1eQBwax0HFcu/pqyKQnVyyDfLvX7SqAPEx9KkNBGgwjDXsK7G+oL kwDFhp9luBMX/j79yAgxzQCGD6X2L38eq3hZU/5MxhDKOy/89GX/6C7szqE5J/Qw pN04UtPwUCmEQNxObO9nocA/+aBoOqMwf9FiUdcUyg8WPKKPA+egscagXEVR6eTn pGq7E+RW/FCdwlr0b69oVDqCh9ryq+OEq9pme+tc8j6MpZDpbcCZq5shTfJlNMUg ZbnTzvfHtycZDvP1NKgAgCs+yQdAXq8gghGWB82CSSgvIfFke0s= =+WMW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --O5XBE6gyVG5Rl6Rj-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 11:57:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002A1120912 for ; 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12 Jul 2019 18:56:55 +0000 Received: from [10.61.168.132] ([10.61.168.132]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6CIusu7026712 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Jul 2019 18:56:54 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <62203DE9-0F72-4525-9B07-ECB1ACA2AB70@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BDDA12E2-A3BB-4848-9592-5997A4952A26"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 20:56:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4aad3bb1-b1ab-c853-5e85-59e895ee3862@nomountain.net> Cc: hrpc@irtf.org To: Melinda Shore References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> <4aad3bb1-b1ab-c853-5e85-59e895ee3862@nomountain.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.168.132, [10.61.168.132] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 18:57:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BDDA12E2-A3BB-4848-9592-5997A4952A26 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9A811BC0-705C-4A74-8167-01A52F81D009" --Apple-Mail=_9A811BC0-705C-4A74-8167-01A52F81D009 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Melinda, Between your two messages to me, I=E2=80=99m not sure where to start, so = I=E2=80=99ll start with this one, since it seems to contradict your = earlier one. > On 12 Jul 2019, at 19:38, Melinda Shore = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > On 7/12/19 7:41 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> I think you need to support this statement based on my previous = message. >> That is- if one has an inability to *effectively *participate in the >> setting of defacto standards that impact one=E2=80=99s own society, = isn=E2=80=99t one >> disenfranchised from protecting against whatever human rights impacts >> our work has? Or is that in itself not a human right, and merely = some >> form of privilege? >=20 > I think we need to be clear that people do not have to attend IETF > meetings to influence internet standards, at least in theory. We > (alas) do tend to stray from the expectation that the IETF does its > work (including coming to consensus) on mailing lists, but that is, > in fact, how we are expected to work. If your claim is that human contact has no meaningful value, then we = needn=E2=80=99t meet at all in person. But we do, and with good reason. = And when we make that choice, and when we use language in our documents = that specifically intends to advantage those who are already = participating by meeting in places convenient to them, that is a form of = self-selection. The same has been argued elsewhere that when we develop = RFC editing tools that address the needs of existing participants over = those who might find it easier to use other tooling (I would agree with = those who would say that it is not a substantial barrier; English is a = far more substantial barrier). Are there other forces pushing against = that? Sure, but let=E2=80=99s not ignore the effect. >=20 > That said, I also question whether or not this discussion is in-scope > for HRPC. The question you ask above might be, but the one = specifically > about IETF meeting venue choice is not. >=20 As to the first question, here=E2=80=99s a quote from UNCHR: > Democracy is one of the universal core values and principles of the = United Nations. Respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and = the principle of holding periodic and genuine elections by universal = suffrage are essential elements of democracy. These values are embodied = in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and further developed in = the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights which enshrines = a host of political rights and civil liberties underpinning meaningful = democracies. The basis of democracy is the right to participation in decisions made = about how one will be governed. We here do not operate on the basis of = democracy, but we assuredly operate on the basis of participation. And = participation must be meaningful. And if it follows that there is = meaningful value in attending our meetings, then we have established = that some are suffering a loss while others are benefiting. The IETF consciously chosen a tradeoff against this sort of abridgment, = in favor of what we hope are better technical results. But this = presumes that that there is a common understanding of what better = technical results means. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_9A811BC0-705C-4A74-8167-01A52F81D009 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Melinda,

Between = your two messages to me, I=E2=80=99m not sure where to start, so I=E2=80=99= ll start with this one, since it seems to contradict your earlier = one.

On 12 Jul 2019, at 19:38, Melinda Shore = <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:

Signed PGP = part
On 7/12/19 7:41 AM, Eliot = Lear wrote:
I think = you need to support this statement based on my previous message.
 That is- if one has an inability to = *effectively *participate in the
setting of defacto = standards that impact one=E2=80=99s own society, isn=E2=80=99t one
disenfranchised from protecting against whatever human rights = impacts
our work has?  Or is that in itself not a = human right, and merely some
form of privilege?

I think we need to be clear that = people do not have to attend IETF
meetings to influence = internet standards, at least in theory.  We
(alas) do = tend to stray from the expectation that the IETF does its
work (including coming to consensus) on mailing lists, but = that is,
in fact, how we are expected to work.

If your claim is that human contact has no = meaningful value, then we needn=E2=80=99t meet at all in person. =  But we do, and with good reason.  And when we make that = choice, and when we use language in our documents that specifically = intends to advantage those who are already participating by meeting in = places convenient to them, that is a form of self-selection.  The = same has been argued elsewhere that when we develop RFC editing tools = that address the needs of existing participants over those who might = find it easier to use other tooling (I would agree with those who would = say that it is not a substantial barrier; English is a far more = substantial barrier).  Are there other forces pushing against that? =  Sure, but let=E2=80=99s not ignore the effect.


That said, I also question = whether or not this discussion is in-scope
for HRPC. =  The question you ask above might be, but the one specifically
about IETF meeting venue choice is not.


As to the first question, here=E2=80=99s a quote = from UNCHR:

Democracy is one of the universal core values = and principles of the United Nations. Respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and the principle of holding=20= periodic and genuine elections by universal suffrage are essential=20 elements of democracy. These values are embodied in the Universal=20 Declaration of Human Rights and further developed in the International=20= Covenant on Civil and Political Rights which enshrines a host of=20 political rights and civil liberties underpinning meaningful=20 democracies. 

The = basis of democracy is the right to participation in decisions made about = how one will be governed.  We here do not operate on the basis of = democracy, but we assuredly operate on the basis of participation. =  And participation must be meaningful.  And if it follows that = there is meaningful value in attending our meetings, then we have = established that some are suffering a loss while others are = benefiting. 

The IETF consciously = chosen a tradeoff against this sort of = abridgment, in favor of what we hope are better technical results. =  But this presumes that that there is a common understanding of = what better technical results means.

Eliot


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[63.140.64.252]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i137sm2247329pgc.4.2019.07.12.12.35.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:35:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> <4aad3bb1-b1ab-c853-5e85-59e895ee3862@nomountain.net> <62203DE9-0F72-4525-9B07-ECB1ACA2AB70@cisco.com> From: Melinda Shore Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=melinda.shore@nomountain.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFppZ0gBEADFwxAi5szDOsM/6+CH4pbYTX7D+2gjLY4xEE7ydQcAF1WVLvcWXrpZM0GO /eA4N1PJ+OT5o8o9zVr7izMJkiLwcnQmxHdlYgZ9E+Cm8hDtMyEPBQwsYTkE5kpbGCmBAZ+W rHNHjvDg366uZQHzJejenB1/V4+rxMZs1Ak34Az2MVOz9Doecaiadpw3NpH3+1VXY/qilqnM lznINSANqD0ktxB/CVKjxl3/K5JnVnLp0h2kiUqt19hQPX2JmLcgaHzu+Ceb34/HZWhs0CiF c4auhQ3A9PcccOprQh6IGW1xo6RP3OEbeRFqeovgBWS+DIWzMIM0a3G2LDid0889QYwEv0zZ RPDCcF3g15mlkeUUmwKQ6eAagPyTqLtTiOKULqy9bQahyX2eqlySrF+HqlwGeNoG+A4l1Z2Y S7NCBLPIzUk2RuSKMBaKw86ORzvg2Advrw4bdv7kbDkArGzywky61SEB/q+GqR466mekXx2F O+m8RuoSnWrBsKvD/bhELHcneorIBleGz+VL7i5adU0rIydG3jPTfUeXoCZIeNx1LannxnAR ihKdh5+FE26WiiK6VmZWkvFjaPFwWGjvAsi82Pd9QgHhnG/XzINpXw/3HF4wtBTU5nIExMzC +FbJxCPq1kXpqSxJqg7hgUFvD5jUD9lpN5Br/S2dUgJj95bbPQARAQABtCxNZWxpbmRhIFNo b3JlIDxtZWxpbmRhLnNob3JlQG5vbW91bnRhaW4ubmV0PokCVAQTAQoAPgIbAwUJCWdTAAUL CQgHAwUVCgkICwUWAgMBAAIeAQIXgBYhBE9oLZMqF5b4IPI0wN+4kXKadtuPBQJaaXRaAAoJ EN+4kXKadtuPVioP/3nVzx33yjiEtqLKTEHwofnLT15CV5wAcGa0DTbqgiomVKzSRkkhbF3Z KIHYrnjVpTcYJuW+PmFSIjNizNVr+vvjNP6ptRqx5orWmK4EBe/B9mrpmIshxUwkYr46uwN4 h06xJS3KCzhfhSsnesH5vlGBkUod0+nQhbSLyLRpxmaKaeAl4dxFSBLU0vUJMLH8PXTZVNof 5Yo+ThqCzu1pwOkBQ8gST2J6zdy4PjU9ENQ9RLAamlAG/6rGHEKLFcnUpEg7Tcu1hSzAsqR8 kjX2Prpu4A9DyLCjTOvfOPQa8WjZy18ZdYOxuPxdrTazeCRVJIvYRflhBCZb744jhMyfAiSW eckwRBVSCnBuvWBJl9Ua1wp8SOUXXhgGI8WGvSkvul6kKSkHQKDggd4cojAhxWLfvmjxn5pz 0BNbvrEBGqgWwO1ZMuJpmv3P8YK5Aytsl85NZoMMUJIDxEQhBUgYz5QTQANBKPi8RsfOntho rhzXLqnPPQcE4Xf9O9XIyy077F0JoyiPx74Zsl1dTxmT73pezpfhKUQR7/QlmJ/FAADpb6SO V0tlgBtR6FAZToBYPDiss57AcKM1zzyJ7sHIZkxQelykYSet6hp2WGcwMXQveWqFMQ4fiGQx XNEPO+KZKNj+0sfINzSLP88O5TniM/l/JrjZZNT/lVAQDTdkCBGyuQINBFppZ0gBEACgZuM1 8ghzSuhuv+n0kWyWCeEWrx9Ey03EgFj5alBt55+OLv3dOsdyBHJxjtd0cZS1XaKZlgr1YZ0O pQNv/Wyy8uSW2BZ6hyG1SKN9/1MmfJLNnjjxaBQP4yaMwDdS3wX7hoWY19IpVPZHYDR35FAg SnG/s6we+IOITM1TJoOJs4+ygeK5dC7LfRoj+lkEHYrTcglYVuwsyK2FNz/sF8kJW1fEZHM6 6phSbhCvwbECWbb4eDGXbKZY92W1RTQ5U5td8DMLXyYipQphrcoeRXpb18DbOnE0WwIQV0yB gc/rTiUt/wVjasd1RrsCPBQC/uJ+ZHknvr2MoxIWBBsRtKYHG66aOL+nDV8X1miuF6j4cztv gmdqrwPHpAKVxhfwd/G4suNBunYw4/kAV9b2+eidX5em3NtPPNl/qNjsmEHQGn/5JKRHRvQs 0yuigXDhN2N0keoHrbGCE8kyA/d83L7E9d95hsf3JxpRzmeaTze+NpcIaX5uXdKOaCBjLtx1 tOrDA4XX7Y3nY+waKZYa3RvC7yulFJiKfYWDSriWeQXcXj06p8H6vF6sy9LeX9xRRjTI7qDH FxwuMQIKGqgufXtxu0pxxcMqXTEUPZnxUWUvuFjjYvEmtO92+Ot/NuotV8JvRPwg2OnYjMJo dU1X7hzEs8djtgZG+t3FEGK3i1EJUQARAQABiQI8BBgBCgAmFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iR cpp2248FAlppZ0gCGwwFCQlnUwAACgkQ37iRcpp2248krg/9H896KtAQCAV0RcV3QqZ75iY5 pCxpRyxAaR0PjE5jiYV5gUHPCKtr9UPZt4Bi+bzNLQ2KJK6Rx4XNf5lQWopEo1IxtOiFPjkr QIpNkYmFWyOGpKpSIDhgsJpswZqxPDLpo+59GNlSUG6v3sMAnx+Gvtvqczkvg6UPDN/JYK75 BIGoCGZMyor1B0EmRYj98LdwjT95dQZXjZvWBDeIx+NxUZKoA7AlR/xgsN3PHGq4SApMLL0R /qbiLIzUPnTPt5sBs0peflVvMrtgIMiZ9FdYPE+VWy5+X2AmeFg6Zl5W76HQUP6eYZQV5abZ +iiW9lY1TmqsqpTIDu/ZMy7pLknxV5E1vQy+wsihluDYydaQ4HWoNaY7QFb+x7TsvjJRi+cH 7By4jxohTWUuaukuMmT0eEaesWJSraAmxsffqJwDpsi0chZskuXjEm9gX6rY7MhzOZl7Vz9F +6MYTtTmT1mpkLAMWf1/JuKUCfnSAHRlDxUOAG6QSJoHWAGqYy3XiF9bN63yQ6xllloSbbMv P9VW0e/iFKMKEIvfIvAg0IrlPcfKAGuuT1axwIU7da/N7LOcXyDDSEUuSzvXL/BkWyjxuLzd LY6eTvC6ZT/fA5iS/PAUj0WbrWNrHQtQ5OY2+al2v6JdLu/w6IZJCBpTosOAOzzmre+31fk1 HKwqd9xRxC8= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:35:32 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <62203DE9-0F72-4525-9B07-ECB1ACA2AB70@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:35:39 -0000 On 7/12/19 10:56 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > If your claim is that human contact has no meaningful value, then we > needn’t meet at all in person.   I am not making that claim. I am claiming that the question of meeting location is not the same question as whether or not someone is able to participate in the IETF standards process. We've also determined empirically that meeting in a new location does not increase the number of people who continue to participate from that region. But that is, of course, out of scope for this research group. Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis From nobody Fri Jul 12 14:03:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1BE1201DC for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:03:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MaNPVBXMq9_l for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67F6012006B for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A447BE79; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 22:03:25 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hvqz5p9C96tI; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 22:03:24 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 00798BE7B; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 22:03:23 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1562965404; bh=BMVzwqmbEoW3AlyDLaMT7D9d94zEPx2OIXw+seN0GCg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=VKYl3zRUdtUJuy0Qj/vnLS8jO0zY3inmeLqtsCUuGa+cCeh2xGvxuD+zr6ZcDehit MrmKhy4hQ0P4P+kkzNU41HrrIdhEIrE7NolbXIKybvLnHSKLvhRbkldwu4ebPtVY8T CoojaOuLWB0gouS+vEhVqha6AvkPvbCJevcfYlms= To: Niels ten Oever Cc: Eliot Lear , hrpc@irtf.org References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <20190712175641.GB3846@mir> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190712175641.GB3846@mir> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DLvPWkciVY7EX5jnr7kYvUIpudDOqZNp8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 21:03:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --DLvPWkciVY7EX5jnr7kYvUIpudDOqZNp8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nOLRzDNPG2xaTJuVCa9ic7tu1iUVbgX8A"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Niels ten Oever Cc: Eliot Lear , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <20190712175641.GB3846@mir> In-Reply-To: <20190712175641.GB3846@mir> --nOLRzDNPG2xaTJuVCa9ic7tu1iUVbgX8A Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5B07BF48D70FB5EF48D4A8AE" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5B07BF48D70FB5EF48D4A8AE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 12/07/2019 18:56, Niels ten Oever wrote: > These were all just hypothesis that one could seek to prove or > disprove. Sure, but all seemed on the "downside." If you do do some work on this, then maybe consider some "upside" hypotheses such as any trends in the number of people who participate and provide excellent and influential input over extended periods. I can think of a number of those who've turned up from unexpected places over the years. And fwiw, I figure each of those "counts" more than quite a few people who turn up just to grind their most recent axe without regard to any larger issues, so we don't in fact need hundreds of excellent participants, just a few can be significant. (My reason for saying that is that simply counting heads may not get to very useful figures, and could be misleading.) 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id tv3SRBloaH-j for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEA391202E0 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hm2ni-0000NC-2H; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 23:10:24 +0200 To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Eliot Lear , hrpc@irtf.org References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <20190712175641.GB3846@mir> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= 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BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <44f9c8cd-4472-9f08-b4b8-24f5929c9989@nielstenoever.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 23:09:51 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RU1DHEGe2Ck0dL0H6AVBNiYgYHqbKVOVv" X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 10fb2eeb1e6a32429c7ce102d6ec6cdf Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 21:10:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --RU1DHEGe2Ck0dL0H6AVBNiYgYHqbKVOVv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Kv57r5onaQPzxAXqJPOSZMiyny0AVPRng"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Eliot Lear , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <44f9c8cd-4472-9f08-b4b8-24f5929c9989@nielstenoever.net> Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <20190712175641.GB3846@mir> In-Reply-To: --Kv57r5onaQPzxAXqJPOSZMiyny0AVPRng Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 7/12/19 11:03 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > On 12/07/2019 18:56, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> These were all just hypothesis that one could seek to prove or >> disprove. > Sure, but all seemed on the "downside." If you do do some > work on this, then maybe consider some "upside" hypotheses > such as any trends in the number of people who participate > and provide excellent and influential input over extended > periods. I can think of a number of those who've turned up > from unexpected places over the years. >=20 You are very right, I think recent work of Nick Doty is testament to that= : https://github.com/npdoty/bigbang/tree/ietf-participation/ietf-participat= ion > And fwiw, I figure each of those "counts" more than quite > a few people who turn up just to grind their most recent axe > without regard to any larger issues, so we don't in fact > need hundreds of excellent participants, just a few can be > significant. (My reason for saying that is that simply > counting heads may not get to very useful figures, and could > be misleading.) With the current tools it is relatively easy to measure 'depth' of partic= ipation, as well as centrality and influence in the community and on its = discourse. These measures could also be improved with data on authored I-= D's, and RFC, and their relative importance vis a vis other I-D's and RFC= s. A beautiful data science rabbit hole :) Cheers, Niels >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 --=20 Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --Kv57r5onaQPzxAXqJPOSZMiyny0AVPRng-- --RU1DHEGe2Ck0dL0H6AVBNiYgYHqbKVOVv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAl0o9yAACgkQDtg/OkaK yLOpCQ//Qfkz80E4/a58ltG9e02ZjSHY4/xC9Qlr3ByNDMdLEkA7aAlliy2nWdX4 gofJXNr+yn2zTuPTzSxZVKrAegKgw3WOHunv6HQgPmJBmHorunippLpU7aNpSgom nEtLrHlhtlguqvN5vFiG/H04/TtqiiN4sX04ZSvJ9fOXm2PXg9v4pgeZ0/rZ9YJB 09sQTE7XqofHPUEv6WMdVMwCe/vweSvBLMqGSUvFfvdrxWP+Dn7Caa45DUeYmIUh a4ThBf1t/KrhLTivZBTO2VFiJMsNfIl+uZIzVVDfoj25vASeILKoodgevZg1KdT6 H45+Glsmr08TfJGe0Ry9TsyRaURvBjph41Ic2SKudcUqasWDw5HYbSVaJOXOK4L+ kg/HgT06kM2xy6pD8rE/ZD8NMAYNzJEl5EIbPMbPedPi4f4VKaxaeoQ+ASa5eF4n KDh5fYuyk0bDkF/XWvwX/QQOUP2lY3oKImxp1heP0W6tusRxhsO5E9B6lp07UBRn ONio0fNY+qqNGT7ihhg4ckck9YKTm/jcnuoBhclHytEq4lEf7ErEzHutJLoG2+jg g1tI0pvfhODSZGvPhrfQUlFNP2KhvE3Uo5baI3M456uHsHFiBlLObToYZbA8/TA5 I0y6g/3dPSwee2vZxOyH0cvsjOsepLLqbNrBmf80Wm4znbNtuNw= =feEK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RU1DHEGe2Ck0dL0H6AVBNiYgYHqbKVOVv-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 16:11:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8739512014E for ; 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12 Jul 2019 23:11:35 +0000 Received: from [10.61.168.132] ([10.61.168.132]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6CNBY3U032661 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Jul 2019 23:11:34 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <691E7168-F21A-444C-84C5-32E4D212816A@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5345E1F5-7779-4E57-A08A-59A97F0EAB56"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 01:11:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org To: Melinda Shore References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> <4aad3bb1-b1ab-c853-5e85-59e895ee3862@nomountain.net> <62203DE9-0F72-4525-9B07-ECB1ACA2AB70@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.168.132, [10.61.168.132] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 23:11:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5345E1F5-7779-4E57-A08A-59A97F0EAB56 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1BA3D700-5A1C-45B9-A0AD-75B49C0B5B74" --Apple-Mail=_1BA3D700-5A1C-45B9-A0AD-75B49C0B5B74 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 12 Jul 2019, at 21:35, Melinda Shore = wrote: >=20 > I am not making that claim. I am claiming that the question > of meeting location is not the same question as whether or not > someone is able to participate in the IETF standards process. >=20 But not on an even footing with those who can meet in person, and that = was my point. And by the way, how many people show up to our meetings = outside of region is not a good measure of whether they would want to = attend. All of this is not to say that it=E2=80=99s the IETF=E2=80=99s lot in = life to correct all such inequities. I=E2=80=99m not suggesting that = tomorrow we redo our meeting policy. Some of this is surely beyond our = means. But that doesn=E2=80=99t mean there isn=E2=80=99t an HR impact. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_1BA3D700-5A1C-45B9-A0AD-75B49C0B5B74 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 12 Jul 2019, at 21:35, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:

I am not making that claim. =  I am claiming that the question
of meeting location is not the same question as whether or = not
someone is = able to participate in the IETF standards process.


But not on an = even footing with those who can meet in person, and that was my point. =  And by the way, how many people show up to our meetings outside of = region is not a good measure of whether they would want to = attend.

All of = this is not to say that it=E2=80=99s the IETF=E2=80=99s lot in life to = correct all such inequities.  I=E2=80=99m not suggesting that = tomorrow we redo our meeting policy.  Some of this is surely beyond = our means.  But that doesn=E2=80=99t mean there isn=E2=80=99t an HR = impact. 

Eliot
= --Apple-Mail=_1BA3D700-5A1C-45B9-A0AD-75B49C0B5B74-- --Apple-Mail=_5345E1F5-7779-4E57-A08A-59A97F0EAB56 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXSkTpQAKCRBugA9nE248 uE4NAJ9Cnl8zHwRCpA+VJ2f9cp5CwCY49ACfbuQX3Sz6hSIveb0MZoHsSGj96MA= =Mmer -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_5345E1F5-7779-4E57-A08A-59A97F0EAB56-- From nobody Sat Jul 13 01:15:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E5B21200F4 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 01:15:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WvIzNb2OOY0v for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 01:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 867A012008F for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 01:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F59B6A31A; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:15:42 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1563005742; bh=vJJlDteAgUV/S0Ujb8lJKmi0V/DibGIWssTUpm7yMpc=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=mvIRfF4TXA0ZpOEj/XwZq+GqspSjuL1lKXWRKEVDKN31YcT035A1iRi5JRAdnkY3h opGciGyu4d8pE2zRX49V+36K4CktbCfC56Co8kV3txyXyiUR2CG4owkBwCOojLSdAQ S+xymdSHcXBvPn4ixRJNugu9J4adoRFPwXuwgCbGlvnS8/LZP2MPuxPVtjEp53uV0L u59EonL1uC8DAJANlYpLbKpwi3kASOCLyYUorxvG8ArHXdmVgHUlxkpJfOrU8P1G/k Rweha7ZkUNgl1vI+M1hjt0cwl7KwIjwR44lkxN6h+YiZPRL30EyxZ7OT4uwXFcWjOX AHZfpAzcRW5rQ== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 738883C036F; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:15:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:15:42 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola Reply-To: Vittorio Bertola To: Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <1222225076.3242.1563005742416@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <20190712174138.uwtm44syeqndnkog@mx4.yitter.info> References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> <5a67c26b-21d1-3271-a89c-418b29486e17@cs.tcd.ie> <287405995.3024.1562952542137@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20190712174138.uwtm44syeqndnkog@mx4.yitter.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.2-Rev8 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 08:15:49 -0000 Il 12 luglio 2019 19:41 Andrew Sullivan ha scritto: > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 07:29:02PM +0200, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > > If having an Internet (and the society/economy that it promotes) that respects everyone's human rights is necessary for those human rights to be fulfilled > > This premise can't possibly be true. If it were true, then it would > be the case that human rights could not be fulfilled without the > Internet. But of course, one presumes that human rights could have > been fulfulled before 1983 or so, and nobody had the Internet then (or > even, arguably, an internet -- but whatever. Cast back to 1968 if you > must). So the premise fails. If we followed this line of thought, we could basically all go home and close this group, since what you are saying is that new scientific and technological developments do not impact the fulfillment of human rights, so either they were already fulfilled at the dawn of mankind, or they weren't, but that's it. My point is rather that any new technology that has significant societal impact can advance or deny human rights depending on its features and its implementation policies. It did not look so controversial to me, honestly - it's the very reason why we are here. > The consequent doesn't follow here in any case, because mere > "influence" in the socioeconomic direction and technical decisions > would not rise to meet the requirement of the necessity of diversity. > For instasnce, the influencers could simply take into account the > interests of those not participating. This is basically equivalent to "we do not need democracy but just a benevolent, illuminated dictatorship", but democracy is a human right in itself (article 21 UDHR). It is also the denial of the 20-year-long effort to promote the multistakeholder governance of the Internet: "why do we need the private sector, civil society and the technical community at the table? It is enough if governments take into account the interests of everyone" (several countries are actually very attached to this argument). > Which of course happens all the > time, since many of the protocols that are developed are intended for > use in customer-facing equipment, and the later purchase of such > equipment by users who were not involved in the technical development > serves at least as _prima facie_ evidence that those who were "in the > room" got it right. You seem to suggest that market dynamics alone are sufficient to fulfill everyone's rights and needs. I think that this is rather controversial, much more than anything I said :-) -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Sat Jul 13 07:24:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3A4D120045 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 07:24:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GDAR4n5YMYh0 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 07:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66BC9120026 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 07:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD06BE83; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 15:24:46 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBKQfZXI6xhq; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 15:24:45 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BAD02BE80; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 15:24:44 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1563027884; bh=z5J4hr0DQCDVgHq72GxIi4KgoK7EhFE/CSVhEJs6yyk=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=SSYcqsJpb0Q3tvI6NLCEQTmn2XGhj46K/FO2PKH4a67BZL8LdLyF0a8BQ3sHYGoH5 /KKFskbAaH/HwnaVvbFmCf3iiC2UnhswE2iUYcu/dsURPbgVY+BDSkCjD7uF5Mh/n/ Q7nrQHQqeo9kUHQqKrVFfHHlnyvqs3SnhmNbwhLg= To: Vittorio Bertola , Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> <5a67c26b-21d1-3271-a89c-418b29486e17@cs.tcd.ie> <287405995.3024.1562952542137@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20190712174138.uwtm44syeqndnkog@mx4.yitter.info> <1222225076.3242.1563005742416@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 15:24:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1222225076.3242.1563005742416@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6wbRFXIStrwpawKbpQYmVSi9u1bggL9xG" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 14:24:52 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --6wbRFXIStrwpawKbpQYmVSi9u1bggL9xG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="VhQ5ikeCGgjdOiqAWK77WMrntIyXTZPjR"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Vittorio Bertola , Andrew Sullivan , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03.txt References: <155810770809.26266.7969582032908863356@ietfa.amsl.com> <405bd4ae-1735-2ddb-d4af-a6314833537a@derechosdigitales.org> <98cc85cf-5c03-1e91-7fe0-746e1ad502e6@nielstenoever.net> <7B65EBFA-4EAA-4010-9D3F-9CC8805AF7D2@cisco.com> <964A7862-3550-43A5-A856-ABF831D2E5BA@cisco.com> <5a67c26b-21d1-3271-a89c-418b29486e17@cs.tcd.ie> <287405995.3024.1562952542137@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20190712174138.uwtm44syeqndnkog@mx4.yitter.info> <1222225076.3242.1563005742416@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1222225076.3242.1563005742416@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> --VhQ5ikeCGgjdOiqAWK77WMrntIyXTZPjR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6B1F7EA6F40D77A0FC9F0FE4" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6B1F7EA6F40D77A0FC9F0FE4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 13/07/2019 09:15, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > If we followed this line of thought, we could basically all go home > and close this group, FWIW, I don't agree with your statement above nor with your first mail and do agree with Andrew. ISTM you were extrapolating to extremes in a non-justified manner that may appear to be, but is not, (for the reasons Andrew pointed out), logical. 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(amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=zr24FYT4; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=ycvrfjtr Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a353FlmgUlif for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC5C12004F for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.162.209]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x6G837UF010339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:03:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1563264210; x=1563350610; bh=YDONPVZzuHNUX4TEzP+i/OCedG/O9IW3kt1d+qo9+js=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=zr24FYT4Q3hdco0w7cXHByCOyXoMudMBVNflCfZiGfVEVzXeJrlURP6AdxKnzmPET 7GZYaW5XZFYXB53lOiA9UarmLL2Ny9AaM/v3zAEDKbWei/nGDwWKc+QaYRaReBFgAB XBOG0KS+jRbMu4PZ5dmMkk12vLrbFI5yb6v5HX5w= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1563264210; x=1563350610; i=@elandsys.com; bh=YDONPVZzuHNUX4TEzP+i/OCedG/O9IW3kt1d+qo9+js=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=ycvrfjtro+AaMgP9yis74CjgP60EsB7Mof5nGVVq9/7ezP+6B0JNjlG8ZFci57AuP ZKv/5E69tM7dkdu87eJV8BFOv7fo2hDHSVrXEx2G9W8W9D9s6N0LsR/bOqR3VO3kyT D42PqY/J3/xZEvPHk6WMXukypE4+77x/nQBiBNjM= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20190716001944.0b9d8128@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:00:01 -0700 To: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org From: S Moonesamy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Comment on draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:03:34 -0000 Hi Niels, Section 10 of draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 describes HRPC as a "working group". That is not aligned with the charter [1]. I noticed the following from one the documents which the draft references: " A draft standard under development by the group contains "a proposal for guidelines for human rights considerations ..." I thought that this group was producing research documents instead of standards. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-irtf-hrpc/ From nobody Tue Jul 16 01:29:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E741201C5 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:29:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QY9dc7balzKm for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80AA01201C3 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hnIp0-00089f-1I; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:28:56 +0200 To: S Moonesamy , hrpc@irtf.org References: <6.2.5.6.2.20190716001944.0b9d8128@elandnews.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABtChOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+iQJZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI7kCDQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:28:23 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20190716001944.0b9d8128@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 12f61b0c8dc8dcc8c992b8e1fde77987 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Comment on draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:29:06 -0000 Hi SM, On 7/16/19 10:00 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Niels, > > Section 10 of draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 describes HRPC as a "working group".  That is not aligned with the charter [1]. > This was in the following sentence, right? : 'The discussion list for the IRTF Human Rights Protocol Considerations working group is located at the e-mail address hrpc@ietf.org' Fixed in the following version: s/Working Group/Research Group ! > I noticed the following from one the documents which the draft references: " A draft standard under development by the group contains "a proposal for guidelines for human rights considerations ..."  Which document is this from? I thought that this group was producing research documents instead of standards. > This is true. Best, Niels > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > > 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-irtf-hrpc/ > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Tue Jul 16 01:39:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F8312018C for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:39:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=rBy5rz1i; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=V8dX9P+q Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IzEDPbYqn015 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29D2120183 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.139.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x6G8cvaK026617 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:39:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1563266348; x=1563352748; bh=hgZT8nrYseyMzPATCvqzWZqic2xIrzkSu+ZAHN4dLFY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=rBy5rz1i5ZfqF2E730HsqrMhxQEGZoNeAwGI1Jv5yj0BCavKlpooiDf1OdEDha3vk aXcyklh64gxq3X8+q/V9W/jFbyNMaNJkmc0pUaa/DaCwgMx+d6D4/15zUwHtgcOy4+ 5kHAiIeYy8rph9EJtj+9wS6gjHEcvSuWN8aWoC5k= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1563266348; x=1563352748; i=@elandsys.com; bh=hgZT8nrYseyMzPATCvqzWZqic2xIrzkSu+ZAHN4dLFY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=V8dX9P+qo00u/HXxUj+5unbTNcGrgrGoKu6NT3rvTWNbyE+VawqOoRa+ON8LFpNF5 O8cW63oWH1ZJCCcI+MKFHR44npEaZM+rqbj/K/CjWVvVdRt3BLuDqH/lqN6NXRL6Xm hllmfq86RMrFY4tOQ78lkukPwRevC8gsu6wMrIdc= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20190716013315.0b9f71e0@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:38:20 -0700 To: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20190716001944.0b9d8128@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Comment on draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:39:12 -0000 Hi Niels, At 01:28 AM 16-07-2019, Niels ten Oever wrote: >This was in the following sentence, right? : Yes. Thanks for the quick fix. >Which document is this from? It is from Page 19 of the document at https://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/view/5525/1941 Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Tue Jul 16 02:03:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC2B12017A for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 02:03:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z2j4jS1DJw3Q for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 02:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00158120150 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 02:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hnJLw-0007IV-T7; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 11:02:59 +0200 To: S Moonesamy , hrpc@irtf.org References: <6.2.5.6.2.20190716001944.0b9d8128@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190716013315.0b9f71e0@elandnews.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABtChOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+iQJZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI7kCDQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 11:02:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20190716013315.0b9f71e0@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 4052b6d1c9976086d5ab5ce040fcf5b8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Comment on draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 09:03:09 -0000 On 7/16/19 10:38 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Niels, > At 01:28 AM 16-07-2019, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> This was in the following sentence, right? : > > Yes.  Thanks for the quick fix. > >> Which document is this from? > > It is from Page 19 of the document at https://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/view/5525/1941 > I agree this is a wrong characterization in the within the realm of the IETF/IRTF vocabulary, but I don't think that is the audience this article is catering to. I think it is rather using a more colloquial phrasing of the term standard. But even if this is not the case, the article is still good even if there is this vocabulary mistake in there imho. > Regards, > S. Moonesamy -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Tue Jul 23 08:50:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D9C120059 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:50:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9HjKdhuoWtM4 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.pibit.ch (dragon.pibit.ch [94.231.81.244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFB4912033C for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.pibit.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15027171C067; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:50:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dragon.pibit.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dragon.pibit.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z2HJ_jK8T4bP; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:50:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.43.65] (unknown [67.69.76.115]) by dragon.pibit.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 486CC171C036; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:50:39 +0200 (CEST) To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Cc: Sarah Jamie Lewis From: =?UTF-8?B?SGVybsOibmkgTWFycXVlcyAocOKJoXAgZm91bmRhdGlvbik=?= Openpgp: id=31733E0C598D3A1CF70955D6CB5738652768F7E9 Message-ID: <4516329c-e639-f934-06b7-1f7c0a73284e@pep.foundation> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:50:35 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="26JFkoRwirD8eisebhITFInx64ZsW6DOD" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] On possible input for draft-guerra-feminism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:50:46 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --26JFkoRwirD8eisebhITFInx64ZsW6DOD Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="DGT32sKlwx3W1vi9o7BfFXIM6cQI8yP73"; protected-headers="v1" From: =?UTF-8?B?SGVybsOibmkgTWFycXVlcyAocOKJoXAgZm91bmRhdGlvbik=?= To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Cc: Sarah Jamie Lewis Message-ID: <4516329c-e639-f934-06b7-1f7c0a73284e@pep.foundation> Subject: On possible input for draft-guerra-feminism --DGT32sKlwx3W1vi9o7BfFXIM6cQI8yP73 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FBD6CC85F7CE83CE0F23FAD0" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FBD6CC85F7CE83CE0F23FAD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear folks On the mic, I just supported the idea of having cases collected where specific -- marginalized groups -- get deprived from their Human Rights because of the design of (certain) Internet Protocols. I also mentioned the book "Queer Privacy" by Sarah Jamie Lewis, which is CC with us (for some possible interaction): https://www.amazon.com/Queer-Privacy-Sarah-Jamie-Lewis/dp/1365978141 It's noteworthy Sarah is also creating tools to protect such communities, like ctwch: https://openprivacy.ca/blog/2018/06/28/announcing-cwtch/ Quote: "[M]any tools collect information on us that can be used against us in ways that are difficult to understand or predict. Nowhere is this impact felt harder than in the marginalized communities which Open Privacy exists to serve. We see only one solution to this problem: taking our data back into our own hands, and removing the ability of service providers to see our data at all. Today we announce the first step on this long journey: Cwtch." Greets Hernani PS@Sarah: For some context, check some HRPC resources: - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guerra-feminism-00 - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8280/ - https://datatracker.ietf.org/rg/hrpc/about/ --=20 p=E2=89=A1p foundation: https://pep.foundation/ --------------FBD6CC85F7CE83CE0F23FAD0 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0xCB5738652768F7E9.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0xCB5738652768F7E9.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFWozlEBEADAIFgjylzzPH7JKRJPbiEGoSsrSaCrbWLdy4sNGD4fS7GsuZ9f o/E9iYzC7WwGhN8rB4jsLv/ZfGVbAsmpypvZdReVs/BPidR8Vo1WMOK3lww1L6j8 7UV7TwUzG72u0zMXCUWMtX3+7kWZVlohXPCzDe7xyLu5tdfPWIAxDrI3h/+a4qAR ySVo8RwzILDwjbLF8at0w52oTRIWcr9CAus8ktRKBhc3MiUsSXHGgZLujUsXKAYg Vmh53uEVsjigeHZh6XPrzQPTnQ/VDcqNSRl4n+fQ2e/sZV7CQttcqb9zfj8P6Lyk jG3pe1AUSm9A0o75bi8PUluPWyH0wdt4D29xabFFyBANyYqKiLyZvnBqGSkqswnW 00QoYtMaEBh7nyuoUCa0bTMCRn8NaXRCnuINx+E2llqJqeQ0sMJ5WSQe4RbkWRsF 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Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEMXM+DFmNOhz3CVXWy1c4ZSdo9+kFAl03LMwACgkQy1c4ZSdo 9+kn8RAAmc6Eof5eROWbQaxD9/DdXiS1F40y0AilFZiiXgfBzQAqLqy/IVvoE6nq rwKfpD3oQkeQ+HPBrJsiBMeVlKlwvtJrX+X1SAAgwltu09e9IfiV/RJD8oJx9NmD Nh7Y60VP/o4NBI1e4TPuduSuuI8z5RHWkjwQsfZwK4vWTm8ck/wCW1l4O/hdz7WY NU7VJ0gxSQo8gHr2kNj8Jm46qgcKN5b6GWSXDfPMuQ2hilt8RwlmRQkglnGwAL0y lP1IAVlpLlpmmMczXGjr499W6s77UaoTd5CLk704y1Shf9ftIoXe9j5yE5KLmfyn rV4proYOOp9YNNWvWwpzmnGGJKDlWp57ucFJfPadk5exnkhiDwMGTb34YH1rY1Wz pS69KnbmmezZkreNo5CxipgubjxZQ1gJlz58+fSESJnczKhsMB1eUlcy2alRpc8x fM7jNmpzaUh3LlJqBcIrjKOIxZwk4NP1IgtoILB0wbmy7pH7bPbc5WEyO3pTiItQ cdnCihob7bEnO37M8a2g7703eF/V2z1y3/L+fzYbZqwN0QaNbAsovEP7vVpJ7520 IRmsgwXMBPuvghT3N7wIbtH3e0gjpOcBUWuFdvODp9f1nfbD5Q4Jz6j9ZZ0i1Zk0 +sSlvUmmK5Bg30GLZml5KoZt1WKAa+QwTlggzyLHVk7k495rDbY= =nh1a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --26JFkoRwirD8eisebhITFInx64ZsW6DOD-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 13:17:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B70C512039B; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:17:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lqcZwGqmgFpW; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F7C5120352; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hq1Dg-0007D8-4x; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 22:17:08 +0200 From: Mallory Knodel Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-016E4FF2-6FA2-4080-AAF4-180C032DEE6E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:16:55 -0400 Message-Id: References: <5da67624-ace5-6d60-a087-5f7c3c024095@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <5da67624-ace5-6d60-a087-5f7c3c024095@article19.org> To: hrpc@irtf.org, hr-rt@irtf.org X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16D57) X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: f3d1e7b0e1870f2691f17ae931629edf Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [HR-rt] Learning from reviews X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:17:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail-016E4FF2-6FA2-4080-AAF4-180C032DEE6E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, As per the today=E2=80=99s session (notes forthcoming), the HR-RT list will b= e closed immediately. And: > * CCing the HRPC list if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites > RFC 8280, Please note the clarification on this point made today. Folks using RFC8280 o= r the Guidelines draft to do reviews should summarise and present learnings f= rom that review process in HRPC. This is in contrast to including the HRPC l= ist in discussion about that review alongside the ongoing RG discussion. Tha= t wouldn=E2=80=99t be helpful so please do not do that. Thanks, -M --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > On 30 May 2019, at 02:57, Mallory Knodel wrote: >=20 > Hi everyone, >=20 > In order to make the learnings from draft reviews against RFC 8280 more > visible and part of the chartered work of HRPC, we have taken some > recent steps: >=20 > * Encouraged hr-rt (human rights review team) subscribers to share > updates on reviews that they're conducting using RFC 8280 to the hrpc > list instead. And the hr-rt list will be closed down due to redundancy. >=20 > * Created a new IRTF-HRPC repository called "reviews" in Github to > track these reviews and learnings: https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/reviews >=20 > So, if you are someone who is interested in using RFC 8280 or the > guidelines draft to conduct reviews, please feed that work back into > HRPC by: >=20 > * Sending a message to HRPC about drafts that might be interesting > because of a) clear connection to RFC 8280, b) requests from authors or > engagement with RFC 8280 in the I-D drafting process, or c) existence of > a human rights considerations section in an I-D. >=20 > * CCing the HRPC list if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites > RFC 8280, >=20 > * Discussing on the list and in meetings about learnings gleaned from > the review process when using RFC 8280 or the guidelines draft. >=20 > * When you've sent a review (hopefully with HRPC on CC) please follow > up on HRPC with an additional note on the utility or appropriateness, > &c. of RFC 8280 in the analysis. >=20 > Thanks all, > -Mallory > --=20 > Mallory Knodel > Head of Digital :: article19.org > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt --Apple-Mail-016E4FF2-6FA2-4080-AAF4-180C032DEE6E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,

As per the today=E2=80= =99s session (notes forthcoming), the HR-RT list will be closed immediately.=

And:

* CCing the HRPC lis= t if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites
RFC 8280,<= /div>

Please note the clarification on= this point made today. Folks using RFC8280 or the Guidelines draft to do re= views should summarise and present learnings from that review process in HRP= C. This is in contrast to including the HRPC list in discussion about that r= eview alongside the ongoing RG discussion. That wouldn=E2=80=99t be helpful s= o please do not do that.

Thanks,
-M
-- 
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital ::&= nbsp;article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9  = B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

On 30 May 2019, at= 02:57, Mallory Knodel <mallory@= article19.org> wrote:

Hi everyone,

In order to mak= e the learnings from draft reviews against RFC 8280 more
vis= ible and part of the chartered work of HRPC, we have taken some
recent steps:

* Encouraged hr-rt (huma= n rights review team) subscribers to share
updates on review= s that they're conducting using RFC 8280 to the hrpc
list in= stead. And the hr-rt list will be closed down due to redundancy.
<= span>
* Created a new IRTF-HRPC repository called "reviews"= in Github to
track these reviews and learnings: https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/reviews

So, if you are someone who is interested= in using RFC 8280 or the
guidelines draft to conduct review= s, please feed that work back into
HRPC by:
=
* Sending a message to HRPC about drafts that might be int= eresting
because of a) clear connection to RFC 8280, b) requ= ests from authors or
engagement with RFC 8280 in the I-D dra= fting process, or c) existence of
a human rights considerati= ons section in an I-D.

* CCing the HRPC li= st if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites
RFC 8280,<= /span>

* Discussing on the list and in meetings a= bout learnings gleaned from
the review process when using RFC= 8280 or the guidelines draft.

* When you'= ve sent a review (hopefully with HRPC on CC) please follow
u= p on HRPC with an additional note on the utility or appropriateness,<= br>&c. of RFC 8280 in the analysis.

Thanks all,
-Mallory
--
= Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B= 240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

___= ____________________________________________
HR-rt mailing l= ist
HR-rt@irtf.org
https:/= /www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt
= = --Apple-Mail-016E4FF2-6FA2-4080-AAF4-180C032DEE6E-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 15:48:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E16DA120991 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:48:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xMnR2cvUeRaV for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9088812098D for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id m24so85447876ioo.2 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:48:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qoTJYGIQyvg2vTsXUdPhRKa6x7cx/94rIcIxSenrUG8=; b=Ep68lP4y8rlvidjY7xfk9+pQG1h8ylUAo8ht7Dxt3XQDsr3BhHTC1IROWWx0lRvphn XHD+e7d+KTiEbo2TaxqDXD3zaS0wRd+NG+hKzdxlMX0+cXmBnG9yFY/itybBDtmiFm0j vVCkoimkRBfTxlXidwze/BAHBYagtr2+uQlEs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qoTJYGIQyvg2vTsXUdPhRKa6x7cx/94rIcIxSenrUG8=; b=Tc+buo3PgAOHCEKiOvaWdOghidWsdFtfMLBxzsHS7hMGptbFRVH6SUvrDVfSH/83Jc aVxlUbVQlTcDk3pkeXpYSdnfog4957Hkp5KfsUWk3ZDEL6cWp3vf9FLBy9syUzgW+jTy 2QVpBw4R246y3tzUYATUoq66QQ4550VY/cLPtVi2yTw+70L7tXDu8rcjJtU8BQrwTPw2 PnF4ChSWnmW71xFQmIWonDzgyN13D8F5mRtuxQS+3xpeo3zg/asvK+AZJbvHbGBVth1e XovzF85b4erOIeyHriogki7GPH2c5wJua+gQBDN46FuKvftzCTiOTXUa3lBh8F03zIOw 7lyw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVQydIHSpL4xu396nE8bxVGyL8atrmAXWomNPfyORunb1Rfu9sw vLuWmIVTIjWvg35UFI6nUowFxqmhLfkLSKnvBSSa7n2rHvfItw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzy1FvYiM8+EAy0WL2dR18nu4u5EhF39AlucpUtojGlzVh1AhjFiEHEHVT3zVZpUloGzcfseqd6lHNARBMJAmc= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:5115:: with SMTP id f21mr24185153iob.173.1563922109504; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:48:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5ziz8e.provu5.rtdbnh-qmf@mercury.scss.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <5ziz8e.provu5.rtdbnh-qmf@mercury.scss.tcd.ie> From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:48:17 -0400 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Melinda Shore , Hrpc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cb3cfa058e60fda9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech: move to hrpc? X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 22:48:33 -0000 --000000000000cb3cfa058e60fda9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" (Apologies for two months of silence from me here!) Yes, we had Kathleen and Stephen both ready to AD-sponsor this draft in IETF about two years ago but I became part of the IASA 2.0 effort and had to focus on that (which is now done). Anyway, I'm going to consolidate all the recent feedback and propose a way forward at tomorrow's PEARG session. On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 3:37 AM wrote: > > > On Saturday, 18 May 2019, Melinda Shore wrote: > > On 5/17/19 10:13 PM, Gurshabad Grover wrote: > > > If that is not happening (hope I'm not missing some more context), I > > > think this draft is more suitable for the hrpc rg. > > > > Wearing no hats ... I just reread the draft and I think it's > > an excellent piece of work that ought to be published, but I > > do not think it is particularly suitable as a research group > > product (either pearg or hrpc). Let's find out why it hasn't > > moved forward so far and do what we can to remedy that, rather > > than using the IRTF to route around IETF roadblocks. > > > > I don't recall IETF roadblocks. When I was AD I was willing to sponsor > but the draft didn't get done and IIUC it's just recently the authors got > enough cycles to complete it. > > I still think pearg is the best current fit, as follow up work here would > seem more likely, but if various RG chairs went into a huddle and got it > moving that'd be fine, > > S. > > S > > > > Melinda > > > > > > > > -- > > Software longa, hardware brevis > > > > PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 > > 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > -- Joseph Lorenzo Hall Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org] 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 --000000000000cb3cfa058e60fda9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(Apologies for two months of silence from me here!)

Yes, we had Kathleen and Stephen both ready to AD-s= ponsor this draft in IETF about two years ago but I became part of the IASA= 2.0 effort and had to focus on that (which is now done).

Anyway, I'm going to consolidate all the recent feedback and pr= opose a way forward at tomorrow's PEARG session.

On Sat, May 1= 8, 2019 at 3:37 AM <stephen= .farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


On Saturday, 18 May 2019, Melinda Shore wrote:
> On 5/17/19 10:13 PM, Gurshabad Grover wrote:
> > If that is not happening (hope I'm not missing some more cont= ext), I
> > think this draft is more suitable for the hrpc rg.
>
> Wearing no hats ...=C2=A0 I just reread the draft and I think it's=
> an excellent piece of work that ought to be published, but I
> do not think it is particularly suitable as a research group
> product (either pearg or hrpc).=C2=A0 Let's find out why it hasn&#= 39;t
> moved forward so far and do what we can to remedy that, rather
> than using the IRTF to route around IETF roadblocks.
>

I don't=C2=A0 recall IETF roadblocks. When I was AD I was willing to sp= onsor but the draft didn't get done and IIUC it's just recently the= authors got enough cycles to complete it.

I still think pearg is the best current fit, as follow up work here would s= eem more likely, but if various RG chairs went into a huddle and got it mov= ing that'd be fine,

S.

S


> Melinda
>
>
>
> --
> Software longa, hardware brevis
>
> PGP key fingerprint=C2=A0 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F
>
>
_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy &= ; Technology [https://www= .cdt.org]
1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.882= 5, pgp: https:= //josephhall.org/gpg-key
Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 =C2= =A01607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871

--000000000000cb3cfa058e60fda9-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 16:28:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 978A01209D9; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:27:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zM5w8t7rvqPN; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 196641209A0; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [216.46.28.66] (port=64035 helo=[10.77.3.144]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hq4C8-0004mm-Da; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 00:27:48 +0100 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: <140A493A-3352-4E1F-9758-31173DD74AB5@csperkins.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_472E82C8-C4DF-43F2-949E-F9200487DC58" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:27:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, hr-rt@irtf.org To: Mallory Knodel References: <5da67624-ace5-6d60-a087-5f7c3c024095@article19.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 14 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [HR-rt] Learning from reviews X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 23:27:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_472E82C8-C4DF-43F2-949E-F9200487DC58 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks, Mallory. I=E2=80=99ll work with the secretariat to close the = HR-RT list. Discussion should transfer to the main HRPC list. Colin > On 23 Jul 2019, at 16:16, Mallory Knodel = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > As per the today=E2=80=99s session (notes forthcoming), the HR-RT list = will be closed immediately. >=20 > And: >=20 >> * CCing the HRPC list if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites >> RFC 8280, >=20 >=20 > Please note the clarification on this point made today. Folks using = RFC8280 or the Guidelines draft to do reviews should summarise and = present learnings from that review process in HRPC. This is in contrast = to including the HRPC list in discussion about that review alongside the = ongoing RG discussion. That wouldn=E2=80=99t be helpful so please do not = do that. >=20 > Thanks, > -M >=20 > --=20 > Mallory Knodel > Head of Digital :: article19.org > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 >=20 > On 30 May 2019, at 02:57, Mallory Knodel > wrote: >=20 >> Hi everyone, >>=20 >> In order to make the learnings from draft reviews against RFC 8280 = more >> visible and part of the chartered work of HRPC, we have taken some >> recent steps: >>=20 >> * Encouraged hr-rt (human rights review team) subscribers to share >> updates on reviews that they're conducting using RFC 8280 to the hrpc >> list instead. And the hr-rt list will be closed down due to = redundancy. >>=20 >> * Created a new IRTF-HRPC repository called "reviews" in Github to >> track these reviews and learnings: = https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/reviews = >>=20 >> So, if you are someone who is interested in using RFC 8280 or the >> guidelines draft to conduct reviews, please feed that work back into >> HRPC by: >>=20 >> * Sending a message to HRPC about drafts that might be interesting >> because of a) clear connection to RFC 8280, b) requests from authors = or >> engagement with RFC 8280 in the I-D drafting process, or c) existence = of >> a human rights considerations section in an I-D. >>=20 >> * CCing the HRPC list if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites >> RFC 8280, >>=20 >> * Discussing on the list and in meetings about learnings gleaned from >> the review process when using RFC 8280 or the guidelines draft. >>=20 >> * When you've sent a review (hopefully with HRPC on CC) please follow >> up on HRPC with an additional note on the utility or appropriateness, >> &c. of RFC 8280 in the analysis. >>=20 >> Thanks all, >> -Mallory >> --=20 >> Mallory Knodel >> Head of Digital :: article19.org >> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> HR-rt mailing list >> HR-rt@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt = > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt = --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ --Apple-Mail=_472E82C8-C4DF-43F2-949E-F9200487DC58 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks, Mallory. I=E2=80=99ll work with the secretariat to = close the HR-RT list. Discussion should transfer to the main HRPC = list.

Colin



On 23 = Jul 2019, at 16:16, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org> wrote:

Hi,

As per the today=E2=80=99s session (notes = forthcoming), the HR-RT list will be closed immediately.

And:

* CCing the HRPC = list if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites
RFC = 8280,

Please = note the clarification on this point made today. Folks using RFC8280 or = the Guidelines draft to do reviews should summarise and present = learnings from that review process in HRPC. This is in contrast to = including the HRPC list in discussion about that review alongside the = ongoing RG discussion. That wouldn=E2=80=99t be helpful so please do not = do that.

Thanks,
-M

-- 
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 = 65A3 B240 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

On 30 May 2019, at 02:57, Mallory Knodel = <mallory@article19.org> wrote:

Hi everyone,

In order to make the = learnings from draft reviews against RFC 8280 more
visible and part of the chartered work of = HRPC, we have taken some
recent = steps:

* Encouraged hr-rt (human rights review team) subscribers to = share
updates on reviews that = they're conducting using RFC 8280 to the hrpc
list instead. And the hr-rt list will be closed down due to = redundancy.

* Created a new IRTF-HRPC repository called = "reviews" in Github to
track these = reviews and learnings: https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/reviews

So, = if you are someone who is interested in using RFC 8280 or the
guidelines draft to conduct reviews, please = feed that work back into
HRPC = by:

* Sending a message to HRPC about drafts that might be = interesting
because of a) clear = connection to RFC 8280, b) requests from authors or
engagement with RFC 8280 in the I-D drafting = process, or c) existence of
a = human rights considerations section in an I-D.

* CCing the HRPC list = if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites
RFC 8280,

* Discussing on the list and in meetings = about learnings gleaned from
the = review process when using RFC 8280 or the guidelines draft.

* = When you've sent a review (hopefully with HRPC on CC) please = follow
up on HRPC with an = additional note on the utility or appropriateness,
&c. of RFC 8280 in the = analysis.

Thanks all,
-Mallory
-- 
Mallory Knodel
Head of = Digital :: article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 =  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

_______________________________________________
HR-rt mailing list
HR-rt@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt
_______________________________________________
HR-rt mailing list
HR-rt@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt



-- 
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/




= --Apple-Mail=_472E82C8-C4DF-43F2-949E-F9200487DC58-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 19:13:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752BF1209CB for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:13:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id USi86e1Esf2w for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 632C81209C3 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id r7so20079402pfl.3 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:13:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Yw2k87cuyfCZTE0ByJa7ElDE/sj29YD2yiyFtjkecAE=; b=LbgXS9fyDOnBFbEXxy/h0ecUayk+uz8a1r1RLrgwaG5S93CFnMeNjZTznTWZF4Jk5y 6y3VOBWCqG+8oiAPNqbEUaGRz/c68iusac6c0YmZZe4TTyo+LGgZJzMTfgsSYBUPd08/ PW0T+LUfRvWr60SYwlJXbycId91059T17usw6RMpKxJPaWRu9cAKJZccM1BM49oTkkCW IcQcRtFml0BkGsAEW5ieMEuR3aTFfk3fsy25LoLzhQLGH32QAQuG+OYApo8EkjXC4OCe 5NvdNmRmaTM8Fq53o9jckckrGHgG4YHsWspbE9Fq8oQXnxV7XezdnoaRcL6hD5VUlAY1 4Y+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Yw2k87cuyfCZTE0ByJa7ElDE/sj29YD2yiyFtjkecAE=; b=k47ROk8rKeKLQfxvLPXOENm7MoVagkKPfPMg5vQ1pyKPLjp5FWTpNshJSiwy0NU4Z8 wO3EhmmWmZFWt19rs/d7L6WvLa3YiWfrEEzBIwjhPWRTDRptUKnzz2CPg6cD7D6dsd8L zBRHLYENbgTK8UXHdlL9droENQG3+cHjDrm+AwhGA4Ihl5LEs+Bg8a5fWE7fEbya8ckg D9eSQDbxZkQZa14WEA2mex6xtT0qK2SUeljJ2k1y/Zu2x3S7gyNaSMsqFYrYedaOfhHL 1U68gt7BLYTb5J0WybgvMYZYiT0rbCiYWUU43Np5ANyihffqHSt/EevqT8GoMJ1R+iR2 RXiA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVbnizD1glA78jdqbI+L28mWgGaATmJIKye4KHO+Imw+BgTkcC/ piBhqu1cSxYlSRM9/zGLHFMt3u+G2KqTM+G6akLEQQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqycyAuBnbCrEQC8Q9DRRFRxmTGrLJ5nVM9Ytfjy6TNoCWPZKnhMrD5D9iCkuDMj+gQEu2ApfL0heDdUcFvpC7M= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9dc7:: with SMTP id g7mr8428422pfq.170.1563934391609; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:13:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Nwaokorobia Darlington Chima Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 03:12:58 +0100 Message-ID: To: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dd3014058e63d994" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] hrpc Digest, Vol 52, Issue 13 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "mail@nielstenoever.net" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 02:13:16 -0000 --000000000000dd3014058e63d994 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i am need of dedicated individuals and firms who are will to work with me in my research that aim to make man become the internet. title: "WEB OF INSPIRATION" an executable phase of the web that create a more accountable, transparent and more improved internet security and more. email: nwaokorobiadarlington@gmail.com phone number: +2347065180777 On Wed, 24 Jul 2019 at 00:28, wrote: > Send hrpc mailing list submissions to > hrpc@irtf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > hrpc-request@irtf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > hrpc-owner@irtf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of hrpc digest..." > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: [HR-rt] Learning from reviews (Mallory Knodel) > 2. Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: > draft-hall-censorship-tech: move to hrpc? (Joseph Lorenzo Hall) > 3. Re: [HR-rt] Learning from reviews (Colin Perkins) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Mallory Knodel > To: hrpc@irtf.org, hr-rt@irtf.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:16:55 -0400 > Subject: Re: [hrpc] [HR-rt] Learning from reviews > Hi, > > As per the today=E2=80=99s session (notes forthcoming), the HR-RT list wi= ll be > closed immediately. > > And: > > * CCing the HRPC list if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites > RFC 8280, > > > Please note the clarification on this point made today. Folks using > RFC8280 or the Guidelines draft to do reviews should summarise and presen= t > learnings from that review process in HRPC. This is in contrast to > including the HRPC list in discussion about that review alongside the > ongoing RG discussion. That wouldn=E2=80=99t be helpful so please do not = do that. > > Thanks, > -M > > -- > Mallory Knodel > Head of Digital :: article19.org > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > On 30 May 2019, at 02:57, Mallory Knodel wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > In order to make the learnings from draft reviews against RFC 8280 more > visible and part of the chartered work of HRPC, we have taken some > recent steps: > > * Encouraged hr-rt (human rights review team) subscribers to share > updates on reviews that they're conducting using RFC 8280 to the hrpc > list instead. And the hr-rt list will be closed down due to redundancy. > > * Created a new IRTF-HRPC repository called "reviews" in Github to > track these reviews and learnings: https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/reviews > > So, if you are someone who is interested in using RFC 8280 or the > guidelines draft to conduct reviews, please feed that work back into > HRPC by: > > * Sending a message to HRPC about drafts that might be interesting > because of a) clear connection to RFC 8280, b) requests from authors or > engagement with RFC 8280 in the I-D drafting process, or c) existence of > a human rights considerations section in an I-D. > > * CCing the HRPC list if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites > RFC 8280, > > * Discussing on the list and in meetings about learnings gleaned from > the review process when using RFC 8280 or the guidelines draft. > > * When you've sent a review (hopefully with HRPC on CC) please follow > up on HRPC with an additional note on the utility or appropriateness, > &c. of RFC 8280 in the analysis. > > Thanks all, > -Mallory > -- > Mallory Knodel > Head of Digital :: article19.org > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall > To: Stephen Farrell > Cc: Melinda Shore , Hrpc > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:48:17 -0400 > Subject: Re: [hrpc] [Pearg] descriptive censorship work: > draft-hall-censorship-tech: move to hrpc? > (Apologies for two months of silence from me here!) > > Yes, we had Kathleen and Stephen both ready to AD-sponsor this draft in > IETF about two years ago but I became part of the IASA 2.0 effort and had > to focus on that (which is now done). > > Anyway, I'm going to consolidate all the recent feedback and propose a wa= y > forward at tomorrow's PEARG session. > > On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 3:37 AM > wrote: > >> >> >> On Saturday, 18 May 2019, Melinda Shore wrote: >> > On 5/17/19 10:13 PM, Gurshabad Grover wrote: >> > > If that is not happening (hope I'm not missing some more context), I >> > > think this draft is more suitable for the hrpc rg. >> > >> > Wearing no hats ... I just reread the draft and I think it's >> > an excellent piece of work that ought to be published, but I >> > do not think it is particularly suitable as a research group >> > product (either pearg or hrpc). Let's find out why it hasn't >> > moved forward so far and do what we can to remedy that, rather >> > than using the IRTF to route around IETF roadblocks. >> > >> >> I don't recall IETF roadblocks. When I was AD I was willing to sponsor >> but the draft didn't get done and IIUC it's just recently the authors go= t >> enough cycles to complete it. >> >> I still think pearg is the best current fit, as follow up work here woul= d >> seem more likely, but if various RG chairs went into a huddle and got it >> moving that'd be fine, >> >> S. >> >> S >> >> >> > Melinda >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Software longa, hardware brevis >> > >> > PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 >> > 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> > > > -- > Joseph Lorenzo Hall > Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [ > https://www..cdt.org ] > 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497 > e: joe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key > Fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871 > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Colin Perkins > To: Mallory Knodel > Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, hr-rt@irtf.org > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:27:40 -0400 > Subject: Re: [hrpc] [HR-rt] Learning from reviews > Thanks, Mallory. I=E2=80=99ll work with the secretariat to close the HR-R= T list. > Discussion should transfer to the main HRPC list. > > Colin > > > > On 23 Jul 2019, at 16:16, Mallory Knodel wrote: > > Hi, > > As per the today=E2=80=99s session (notes forthcoming), the HR-RT list wi= ll be > closed immediately. > > And: > > * CCing the HRPC list if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites > RFC 8280, > > > Please note the clarification on this point made today. Folks using > RFC8280 or the Guidelines draft to do reviews should summarise and presen= t > learnings from that review process in HRPC. This is in contrast to > including the HRPC list in discussion about that review alongside the > ongoing RG discussion. That wouldn=E2=80=99t be helpful so please do not = do that. > > Thanks, > -M > > -- > Mallory Knodel > Head of Digital :: article19.org > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > On 30 May 2019, at 02:57, Mallory Knodel wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > In order to make the learnings from draft reviews against RFC 8280 more > visible and part of the chartered work of HRPC, we have taken some > recent steps: > > * Encouraged hr-rt (human rights review team) subscribers to share > updates on reviews that they're conducting using RFC 8280 to the hrpc > list instead. And the hr-rt list will be closed down due to redundancy. > > * Created a new IRTF-HRPC repository called "reviews" in Github to > track these reviews and learnings: https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/reviews > > So, if you are someone who is interested in using RFC 8280 or the > guidelines draft to conduct reviews, please feed that work back into > HRPC by: > > * Sending a message to HRPC about drafts that might be interesting > because of a) clear connection to RFC 8280, b) requests from authors or > engagement with RFC 8280 in the I-D drafting process, or c) existence of > a human rights considerations section in an I-D. > > * CCing the HRPC list if someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites > RFC 8280, > > * Discussing on the list and in meetings about learnings gleaned from > the review process when using RFC 8280 or the guidelines draft. > > * When you've sent a review (hopefully with HRPC on CC) please follow > up on HRPC with an additional note on the utility or appropriateness, > &c. of RFC 8280 in the analysis. > > Thanks all, > -Mallory > -- > Mallory Knodel > Head of Digital :: article19.org > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > > _______________________________________________ > HR-rt mailing list > HR-rt@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt > > > > > -- > Colin Perkins > https://csperkins.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --000000000000dd3014058e63d994 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
i am need of dedicated individuals and firms who are will = to work with me in my research that aim to make man become the internet.title: "WEB OF INSPIRATION"
an executable phase of th= e web that create a more accountable, transparent and more improved interne= t security and more.
phone number:=C2= =A0+2347065180777

On Wed, 24 Jul 2019 at 00:28, <hrpc-request@irtf.org> wrote:
Send hrpc mailing list s= ubmissions to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hrpc@irtf.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.irtf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/hrpc
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hrpc-request@irtf.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 hrpc-owner@irtf.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of hrpc digest..."
Today's Topics:

=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: [HR-rt] Learning from reviews (Mallory Knodel)
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Re: [Pearg] descriptive censorship work:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-hall-censorship-tech: move to hrpc? (Joseph Lore= nzo Hall)
=C2=A0 =C2=A03. Re: [HR-rt] Learning from reviews (Colin Perkins)



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Mallory K= nodel <mallor= y@article19.org>
To:=C2=A0hrpc@irtf.org, hr-rt@irtf.org
Cc:=C2=A0
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Tue, 23= Jul 2019 16:16:55 -0400
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [hrpc] [HR-rt] Learning from = reviews
Hi,

As per the today=E2=80= =99s session (notes forthcoming), the HR-RT list will be closed immediately= .

And:

* CCing the HRPC list if someone in HRPC condu= cts a review and cites
RFC 8280,
<= div>
Please note the clarification on this point made today. = Folks using RFC8280 or the Guidelines draft to do reviews should summarise = and present learnings from that review process in HRPC. This is in contrast= to including the HRPC list in discussion about that review alongside the o= ngoing RG discussion. That wouldn=E2=80=99t be helpful so please do not do = that.

Thanks,
-M

--=C2=A0
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digi= tal ::=C2=A0article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 =C2=A0B07= 1 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

On 30 May 2019, at 0= 2:57, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org> wrote:

Hi everyone,

In order to make the learnings from draft reviews against RFC 8280 more=
visible and part of the chartered work of HRPC, we have ta= ken some
recent steps:

* = Encouraged hr-rt (human rights review team) subscribers to share
= updates on reviews that they're conducting using RFC 8280 to the = hrpc
list instead. And the hr-rt list will be closed down d= ue to redundancy.

* Created a new IRTF-HR= PC repository called "reviews" in Github to
track= these reviews and learnings: https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/reviews

So, if you are someone who is interested in using RFC = 8280 or the
guidelines draft to conduct reviews, please fee= d that work back into
HRPC by:

<= span> * Sending a message to HRPC about drafts that might be interesting
because of a) clear connection to RFC 8280, b) requests from = authors or
engagement with RFC 8280 in the I-D drafting pro= cess, or c) existence of
a human rights considerations sect= ion in an I-D.

* CCing the HRPC list if s= omeone in HRPC conducts a review and cites
RFC 8280,=

* Discussing on the list and in meetings about = learnings gleaned from
the review process when using RFC 82= 80 or the guidelines draft.

* When you= 9;ve sent a review (hopefully with HRPC on CC) please follow
up on HRPC with an additional note on the utility or appropriateness,
&c. of RFC 8280 in the analysis.
Thanks all,
-Mallory
--
= Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital :: article19.org
gpg finge= rprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 =C2=A0B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780
_______________________________________________
HR-rt mailing list
HR-rt@irtf.org
https://www.irtf= .org/mailman/listinfo/hr-rt


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Joseph Lore= nzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
To:=C2=A0Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc:=C2=A0Me= linda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net>, Hrpc <hrpc@irtf.org>
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:= =C2=A0Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:48:17 -0400
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [hrpc] [Pearg] d= escriptive censorship work: draft-hall-censorship-tech: move to hrpc?
(Apologies for two months of silence from me here!)

Yes, we had Kathleen and Stephen both ready to AD-spo= nsor this draft in IETF about two years ago but I became part of the IASA 2= .0 effort and had to focus on that (which is now done).

Anyway, I'm going to consolidate all the recent feedback and prop= ose a way forward at tomorrow's PEARG session.

On Sat, May 18,= 2019 at 3:37 AM <stephen..farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


On Saturday, 18 May 2019, Melinda Shore wrote:
> On 5/17/19 10:13 PM, Gurshabad Grover wrote:
> > If that is not happening (hope I'm not missing some more cont= ext), I
> > think this draft is more suitable for the hrpc rg.
>
> Wearing no hats ...=C2=A0 I just reread the draft and I think it's=
> an excellent piece of work that ought to be published, but I
> do not think it is particularly suitable as a research group
> product (either pearg or hrpc).=C2=A0 Let's find out why it hasn&#= 39;t
> moved forward so far and do what we can to remedy that, rather
> than using the IRTF to route around IETF roadblocks.
>

I don't=C2=A0 recall IETF roadblocks. When I was AD I was willing to sp= onsor but the draft didn't get done and IIUC it's just recently the= authors got enough cycles to complete it.

I still think pearg is the best current fit, as follow up work here would s= eem more likely, but if various RG chairs went into a huddle and got it mov= ing that'd be fine,

S.

S


> Melinda
>
>
>
> --
> Software longa, hardware brevis
>
> PGP key fingerprint=C2=A0 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F
>
>
_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Joseph Lorenzo Hall
Chief Technologi= st, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www..cdt.org]
1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washin= gton DC 20005-3497
e: j= oe@cdt.org, p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
Fingerprint: = 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10 =C2=A01607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871

=



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Colin Per= kins <csp@csperki= ns.org>
To:=C2=A0Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org>
Cc:=C2=A0hrpc@irtf.org, hr-rt@irtf.org
Bcc:=C2= =A0
Date:=C2=A0Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:27:40 -0400
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [hrp= c] [HR-rt] Learning from reviews
Thanks, Mallory. I=E2=80=99ll work with the secretariat to close the HR-= RT list. Discussion should transfer to the main HRPC list.

Colin



On 23 Jul 2019, at 16:16, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org> wrote:
<= br class=3D"gmail-m_-4873852637246468256Apple-interchange-newline">
Hi,

As per the today=E2=80=99s session (notes f= orthcoming), the HR-RT list will be closed immediately.

And:

<= span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">* CCing the HRPC list i= f someone in HRPC conducts a review and cites
RFC 8280,

P= lease note the clarification on this point made today. Folks using RFC8280 = or the Guidelines draft to do reviews should summarise and present learning= s from that review process in HRPC. This is in contrast to including the HR= PC list in discussion about that review alongside the ongoing RG discussion= . That wouldn=E2=80=99t be helpful so please do not do that.

Thanks,
--=C2=A0
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital ::=C2=A0article19.org
gpg = fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 =C2=A0B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

On 30 May 2019, at 02:57, Mallory Knodel <<= a href=3D"mailto:mallory@article19.org" target=3D"_blank">mallory@article19= .org> wrote:

Hi everyone,

In order to make the l= earnings from draft reviews against RFC 8280 more
visible a= nd part of the chartered work of HRPC, we have taken some
r= ecent steps:

* Encouraged hr-rt (human rig= hts review team) subscribers to share
updates on reviews th= at they're conducting using RFC 8280 to the hrpc
list i= nstead. And the hr-rt list will be closed down due to redundancy.
* Created a new IRTF-HRPC repository called "r= eviews" in Github to
track these reviews and learnings= :=C2=A0htt= ps://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/reviews

So, = if you are someone who is interested in using RFC 8280 or the
guidelines draft to conduct reviews, please feed that work back into
HRPC by:

* Sending a message = to HRPC about drafts that might be interesting
because of a= ) clear connection to RFC 8280, b) requests from authors or
engagement with RFC 8280 in the I-D drafting process, or c) existence of
a human rights considerations section in an I-D.
<= span>
* CCing the HRPC list if someone in HRPC conducts a r= eview and cites
RFC 8280,

= * Discussing on the list and in meetings about learnings gleaned from
the review process when using RFC 8280 or the guidelines draft.<= /span>

* When you've sent a review (hopefully= with HRPC on CC) please follow
up on HRPC with an addition= al note on the utility or appropriateness,
&c. of RFC 8= 280 in the analysis.

Thanks all,-Mallory
--=C2=A0
Mallory Knodel
Head of Digital ::=C2=A0article19.org
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 = 65A3 B240 BCD9 =C2=A0B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

_______________________________________________
HR-rt m= ailing list
HR-rt@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinf= o/hr-rt
_______________________________________________<= br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:11px;font-style:normal;font-var= iant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;= text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex= t-decoration:none">HR-rt ma= iling list
HR-rt@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/hr-rt



--=C2=A0
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/




_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
--000000000000dd3014058e63d994--