From nobody Wed Apr 1 18:53:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0719C3A095F; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 18:53:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: mknodel@cdt.org, hrpc-chairs@ietf.org, irtf-chair@irtf.org, hrpc@irtf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.123.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158579240287.30918.11613260213513894987@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 18:53:22 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] hrpc - New Interim Meeting Request X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 01:53:23 -0000 A new interim meeting request has just been submitted by Mallory Knodel. This request requires approval by the Chair of the IRTF The meeting can be approved here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim/request/interim-2020-hrpc-03 --------------------------------------------------------- Research Group Name: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Session Requester: Mallory Knodel Meeting Type: Virtual Meeting Session 1: Date: 2020-04-08 Start Time: 12:00 UTC Duration: 01:30 Remote Participation Information: https://cdt.webex.com/meet/mknodel Agenda Note: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Apr 2 08:23:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA5E23A14EA; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 08:23:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IRTF-Announce" , "IETF-Announce" Cc: hrpc@irtf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.123.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158584100965.26396.1997070262931404871@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 08:23:29 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Human Rights Protocol Considerations (hrpc) RG Virtual Meeting: 2020-04-08 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 15:23:31 -0000 The Human Rights Protocol Considerations (hrpc) Research Group will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2020-04-08 from 12:00 to 13:30 UTC. Agenda: Agenda HRPC IETF (107) Virtual Interim # Welcome and introduction (~0 minutes) Scribe, Note takers Agenda Review Research Group status # Talk: TBD (30 minutes) (Please send suggestions) # Talk: Gurshabad Grover (30 minutes) How India Censors The Web https://cis-india.org/internet-governance/blog/how-india-censors-the-web # Updates: Research group drafts (10 minutes) draft-irtf-hrpc-association, Stéphane Couture # Update: Guidelines draft and short presentations from reviewers (10 minutes) draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines, Gurshabad Grover # Discussion: Avri Doria (10 minutes) Options for research publication Information about remote participation: https://cdt.webex.com/meet/mknodel From nobody Tue Apr 7 08:04:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32CCE3A0BD3 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:04:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TCTGq_Yp4BpW for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39B353A0BB2 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id z7so2088988wmk.1 for ; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 08:04:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bnKMLEpY6Z4iLYoNwNgJO9KEMq0ieloe8k+CMZI2IYg=; b=JWUETiCu4DUMUQwhH6yVBGwS8HPE7C/BipuxegyTEA/g5cCjt20g55lCRvzuVMVYUp vCDL2BeKYQKj4kprTss+3gbRvSNAPiM6hFkArISTmxjI0tGLEzvrrX4fWuEFhbqeVr8L n6QFbOm2W6QpW0h/LBUDQ3MvflhKdhyw4i7Ec= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bnKMLEpY6Z4iLYoNwNgJO9KEMq0ieloe8k+CMZI2IYg=; b=FEijtqXHD32g2Jq5l5xlfm6lHu17cWTvdVsl641dv7EvbIZ2J0ajwJVuUS7vukZErP T7IuGCFB9JsLIpbz8H/GbgPRTTxBEjHDgYdvXIm0UUkIX2KMPrYjDsrfvcJ36Fdx9Gp0 B6YvL55pz40PTDFM9KDlrraZrf0bI9PrVHf6uR7Br2M4ye18oBR3Wt6k4Jn0K1CSBc4O C4NisReLfI6ZeeONR9BaFTKlCdK/k+nnZnYL6eGKew1drofq7C7VK86LDItam6+iFB5H mafacLEqzDfuVFULSjjgIqCddEudkJNmt6kOFm5WnRmaW2y5FEhPyQJMaWEIfTxaS+f+ xzPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuarEM+vrYcF4rKDCxX8glUCX/u4DKpDkZcQB5Zxz5F125WWFIE6 O5j5zFVVRgNRtt85yePGnQO5teYHYYXSf8nekeqG6Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIhWmy/XgUJzztcb60t4gHrH9cUDI8KXVoeEllik0AhNM28QebeLlUMm0WqhKep+suqQyLbSD/Eazk/MAPqyUQ= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f60c:: with SMTP id w12mr2726063wmc.29.1586271880478; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 08:04:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158584100965.26396.1997070262931404871@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <158584100965.26396.1997070262931404871@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Mallory Knodel Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 11:04:29 -0400 Message-ID: To: IESG Secretary Cc: IRTF-Announce , IETF-Announce , hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f4129205a2b4b30c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Human Rights Protocol Considerations (hrpc) RG Virtual Meeting: 2020-04-08 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 15:04:46 -0000 --000000000000f4129205a2b4b30c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, This is a kind reminder that tomorrow, 8 April, HRPC will have its virtual interim meeting at 12:00 UTC. The agenda and connection details can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2020-hrpc-03/session/hrpc In addition to updates and discussion on RG work items, our meeting features two excellent talks: * Fenwick McKelvey will be presenting his 2018 book "Internet Daemons" and will be discussing the implications of network optimisation on communication rights. * Gurshabad Grover will be presenting a 2019 report from the Centre for Internet and Society that discloses how ISPs in India are using SNI for censorship, blocking and filtering content. *Please note that I need slides from all presenters.* See you tomorrow, -Mallory On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:25 AM IESG Secretary wrote: > The Human Rights Protocol Considerations (hrpc) Research Group will hold > a virtual interim meeting on 2020-04-08 from 12:00 to 13:30 UTC. > > Agenda: > Agenda HRPC IETF (107) Virtual Interim > > # Welcome and introduction (~0 minutes) > > Scribe, Note takers > Agenda Review > Research Group status > > # Talk: TBD (30 minutes) > > (Please send suggestions) > > # Talk: Gurshabad Grover (30 minutes) > > How India Censors The Web > https://cis-india.org/internet-governance/blog/how-india-censors-the-web > > # Updates: Research group drafts (10 minutes) > > draft-irtf-hrpc-association, St=C3=A9phane Couture > > # Update: Guidelines draft and short presentations from reviewers (10 > minutes) > > draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines, Gurshabad Grover > > # Discussion: Avri Doria (10 minutes) > > Options for research publication > > Information about remote participation: > https://cdt.webex.com/meet/mknodel > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --=20 Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --000000000000f4129205a2b4b30c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,

This is a kind reminder that = tomorrow, 8 April, HRPC will have its virtual interim meeting at 12:00 UTC.=

The agenda and connection details can be found he= re:


In additi= on to updates and discussion on RG work items, our meeting features two exc= ellent talks:

=C2=A0* Fenwick McKelvey will be pre= senting his 2018 book "Internet Daemons" and will be discussing t= he implications of network optimisation on communication rights.
= =C2=A0* Gurshabad Grover will be presenting=C2=A0a 2019 report from the Cen= tre for Internet and Society that discloses how ISPs in India are using SNI= for censorship, blocking and filtering content.

*Please note that I need slides from all presenters.*

See you tomorrow,
-Mallory

On T= hu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:25 AM IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> wrote:
The Human Rights Protocol Considerati= ons (hrpc) Research Group will hold
a virtual interim meeting on 2020-04-08 from 12:00 to 13:30 UTC.

Agenda:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Agenda HRPC IETF (107) Virtual Interim

# Welcome and introduction (~0 minutes)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Scribe, Note takers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Agenda Review
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Research Group status

# Talk: TBD (30 minutes)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (Please send suggestions)

# Talk: Gurshabad Grover (30 minutes)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 How India Censors The Web https://cis-india.org/internet-governance/blog/ho= w-india-censors-the-web

# Updates: Research group drafts (10 minutes)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-irtf-hrpc-association, St=C3=A9phane Cout= ure

# Update: Guidelines draft and short presentations from reviewers (10 minut= es)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines, Gurshabad Grover
# Discussion: Avri Doria (10 minutes)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Options for research publication

Information about remote participation:
https://cdt.webex.com/meet/mknodel

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Mall= ory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg finger= print :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

--000000000000f4129205a2b4b30c-- From nobody Tue Apr 7 20:25:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E673A0947 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 20:25:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.398, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9qqrBBBkksWL for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 20:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0223.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.223]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86E163A0948 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 20:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (clb03-v110.bra.tucows.net [216.40.38.60]) by smtprelay01.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C58E100E7B6B for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 03:25:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Session-Marker: 6176726940646F7269612E6F7267 X-Spam-Summary: 2, 0, 0, , d41d8cd98f00b204, avri@doria.org, , RULES_HIT:41:152:355:379:854:973:988:989:1260:1261:1277:1311:1313:1314:1345:1381:1437:1513:1515:1516:1518:1521:1535:1543:1593:1594:1605:1711:1730:1747:1777:1792:1963:2198:2199:2393:2553:2559:2562:2691:2693:2741:2743:2906:3138:3139:3140:3141:3142:3865:3866:3867:3868:3870:3871:3872:3874:4117:4184:4250:4362:5007:6117:6119:7652:7875:7901:7903:7974:9010:10004:10400:10450:10455:10848:11658:11914:12297:12663:13071:13161:13200:13229:14180:14721:14877:19904:19999:21060:21063:21080:21324:21325:21433:21627:21740:21790:21881:21972:21987:30041:30054:30062:30070:30090:30091, 0, RBL:none, CacheIP:none, Bayesian:0.5, 0.5, 0.5, Netcheck:none, DomainCache:0, MSF:not bulk, SPF:, MSBL:0, DNSBL:none, Custom_rules:0:0:0, LFtime:1, LUA_SUMMARY:none X-HE-Tag: nose29_2b98d074c3210 X-Filterd-Recvd-Size: 6578 Received: from [192.168.0.103] (ip68-9-182-8.ri.ri.cox.net [68.9.182.8]) (Authenticated sender: avri@doria.org) by omf05.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 03:24:59 +0000 (UTC) To: hrpc@irtf.org From: avri@doria.org Autocrypt: addr=avri@doria.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFJXhnsBCADCE9YSMulYfOUptnfTF1uwP2BRzUq87CAUacN6N5H5k8lNffqEXmgI+QWC njF7OwJ71rQLVYV3sIlpCQU9UyQfLHZDZoqV1d+aAJhgmmG6XtSReUi4jgAvsLzj+HkJSSqU 4voepwXs5k2DgRONAXojxvV5rFExDNqz4fn1zj2jf0SMTbCBkhHw1HQ6WXqW5T73LNbEUVys yEJBb+3+ITCVPTeVm7P/dXIEnsIsRVW8yeYoo1+E+jbPJ0OqHXtrWTdqqlU1CUHBgGWEFIIM qT//XVO0Kck8qyir7wqXb37fhSAkw32ZAKrd2NFrq71qk9Yj+SLtgxxqjGVLcbh3WVfRABEB AAG0G2F2cmkgZG9yaWEgPGF2cmlAZG9yaWEub3JnPokBPAQTAQgAJgIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUI AgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBBQJZvm+gAAoJENWp6aLJ/w+n0uQIAKc9Cb5C7NLtjvu2JvcQ Y8QLiubHVvYHAcTsP2J/JRviFIGeZY7uShuhf6VDI8wYXqAjhLfPGv6KvudwOs1dZ4VvzmUt 4yLWPGMEz7T7cQItc/jcYxJYdtI9g0OfYXQMV4TIIQB2KC40bnLjkd3d5EF+2cQIpivE3RED xQ5DZcsbi5q4E4t0z4Zzg5iskwR58cNnlvbVr+5qlVu1KiDYAMCR+ij4AJtzwpRTkH1l6hrv zOmgsdqqPIzSHWdcZPxWsSOm53sFDE54qABhL6+4fbPzRDZnvObnTP6bukPzX5vzYFGXIcQw RqgGOHi83Wf6dPum6K9YmCzxbdgwRsQGEda5AQ0EUleGewEIAL2hntjt90xA4j9yeFvFMAmE qG/rIj0w3XfV3bQsDBUUdH4rVl3SSPp7rBNhe7drGN+SgQP2lJ6hcikRxfZEj9DnT0/9ERrM MqO7SYUTB6Tx8vIoqmy/T4nqHpVlnCTyixxJDaohUHtTkN3BEie//PlMnIC2tXt9JRMXSTAq 3lrUp2mRzDXBWZLhPVUqx6Uo3MMH1magq888piNJAQdf/P+vSuayjVwPyuG6HEEdG+5Q006Q eZQKfAZinaq3ICEyimWZbLWZRC5bw26PZOKxICUKNA1hAaIhw4OKrGsKRCTOj4cN5T6rr/wj zrwwsxypxUiEac/7bVwgEv5O/+TipAkAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQIbLgUCWb5voAEpwF0gBBkB AgAGBQJSV4Z7AAoJEOo+L8tCe36HTvYH/RXrGi8imCvHou7US+pua51wTQrWghz6nEaavtFR +k5wHrf7WdjxEdDaJnb0YZki5IiEyqhHEq9Tb0JMCye4rzgWpvd1Z8JJ2FXmY8EjuRZg1sP3 3bvxm1hM7qsPCTWXzn1eHY3i5zAdtEEk0h+isLmEuuFWhGNwzyb0BC/h84YHylqv7/bMrHUz CtkUKdO2Vx0W8e/EWUDfLJnHtvTFTT1E/koOnWErJfmKhq2G6rMv13XsU7vr9AWZ6vDA3z2o sCHWkA2gkhU7TwHqPkY9HPoekUXlR/n11jBS9Jwx4Dnsyd7pqaRHxoyRqfEWTi8JF+N+XzC3 buf3G3buW3BDmNcJENWp6aLJ/w+n+8wH/0dSUDcbks95ftWatIWFXdtofOTexLvj13dH9BWa Sy7OQDKa1N838tTsRVLOMpF3AmbkqNWDqdF37HcWST9aO/Pi8vSFGtIbVHD74aFUG3PlNOBs lZea+G2UUV2WSXZPiTci8IL2mF8hrt92LcE/4AaaXh35d8ngpjx3CqIkFoMUHVEA1iye5YL+ GjqFR3R2AMLhwK/Nu9uw+cSJQqeZpzkGulPd4Gccxj8YMLQIiZwMTPIReWgSETohRmzyS04Z 6yQ42xcvoUbQ6lLXW0fjNNTBcD93hnlOk1xf+d9tx3fvigMrkxbVGNx/Ob92oRGwz63nnnPg DoZoktZXmyHIh2E= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 23:24:58 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200407-0, 04/07/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 03:25:03 -0000 Hi, ** *Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC RG was spinning its wheels. Our documents aren't moving along the path to RFC very easily and except for interesting presentations at meetings, well worth while in themselves, we have not been making great progress with our research.*= * Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC publishing.=C2= =A0 While I know it is not a requirement for the IRTF, I strongly believe that research published as a RG RFC should have RG agreement for publication. This does not mean that there must be agreement on all the ideas and statements in the doc, but on the finished product. This was the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. A bit cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I believe was a better document.=C2=A0 Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees with this approach. To many, the RFC series is the publication method used by the IRTF and not everything needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by IETF rules. They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict when there is no requirement to be. This question in one way or another has been asked by several people in the RG over the last few years. The recent difficulty has also been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a bit less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point if they won't get published. I can see this point of view, and yet, I still find myself unable to support sending a RG document to the IRSG=C2=A0 that the RG does not thin= k is ready for publication. Of course individual submissions would be a different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the RG chair in the same way. Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off for the last two years. The last time we talked we both felt, I believe, that it was time to try something different to break the impasse.=C2=A0 I made a suggestion for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where RG internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and the other, the production of a yearly publication that is an edited volume that does not require RG approval. Mallory suggested that I bring this to the RG for discussion. What I am suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topic per year and publish a collection of research, essays, and commentary on that topic. How we would publish this remains to be discovered; could be anything from a wiki site to an ebook or even finding a journal to do a special release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would act as lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members of the RG in terms of putting such an effort together, as it does take work and contributions. In terms of topics for a first year, I have thought of two, but am not wed to either of them at all. We would need to find a subject that members of the RG, and hopefully others, would be willing to contribute their writing to. 1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around the various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises. 2 - Take the HRPC core question on =E2=80=9Cwhether standards and protoco= ls can enable, strengthen or threaten human rights=E2=80=9D and explore the vari= ous viewpoints on that question, including the pros, the cons and anything in between. This topic is on our upcoming meeting agenda, and I hope to gather some viewpoints that will guide how we can move forward, or not as the case may be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list. Thanks avri * From nobody Wed Apr 8 02:08:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117FD3A0ECD for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 02:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9oUre6D6SOHc for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 02:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic314-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic314-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.132.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B15933A0F04 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 02:08:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1586336882; bh=8kdQadotnNH6QeK7zpHHyrCtB+3N9c2IfWwUq07lS6k=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=g/C99KB7Ok0XilNCnSaw3l0lNB4K7+ouweZYBQ1eX6cHez+j05gKMmsqzGAgzFOIpy3CU+7SSy+sWRY6gEnS3nzmsfzSgsY9tscQhu6HFOGuAyizVekvdOulhV1w5HYXqQmsxIWiO2Bhu+oh+BY6H7Gn3m60zdl29i8ZFzQ22pAvDY0xMIYzp8eY5N2dK8QyRdStRDTjMFcGve/15c7+/MZI68XdEYhX0KwAeaDHOO/ronX94RepCW/mzorzv3Sfq7LuGUTqZM8ZIjdK9OSc/84tVkPW4sZG+UAFYVDVnrds0Hw6d2nK4iZ055qR9iiXcsdFl8wBQVMEcY2lTA5xtQ== X-YMail-OSG: wDUsghcVM1koNr4E.C9SMN77HsXGd9VhHBqA9aWAHvF9wk5Mack38jeMcUCG_UF GgsYWlSd8CHyGjfedjMQPHks6dYyak0JQvOxDpGmURdb6np9Je1M_iouSQLDMo1OvgndjTJe5MoV WwXL14mvy1v2n8chikmGM_M8M70iaeXiw9twSa0OAmu9WtHbgBDpTSCCEed1DJ3HQ_TqLS3W09Td BnIhW.2FOBK4YNqGQvSSY08IgBFma7IOod_Zw8bIW11C0VDhaeG.Qgm9TFBKhr7iLVKCShp95Mv2 .4ac4Kt5BA5rogp2d9khb51m9o.Gxi5.R82MqrA21dkVL0Hd2pGGvjryr49E6GywpKzRmzLWSNKs _z4DEKWcdwXVwCIuYi7yy4gBsqWy58V2zjF9NxJNx0mwyKc5S01nsDgJqyWNUXmTU1qRNu73S.J4 7.qjHa9vCnbn4u9fQTwc0D4tfzHwzttkF7hHZsC4naZ.17tD80axRlNfnkM_tL1Fo4EIa84RwHZW CrM6Z44CmLN3c6zj.9beE977G4ZYYuVLhKT1ix9EPGNjYpOSJ8n6sQhjER9W1Jt7iihDHDrJQZ0M fmQ4JOtKA_xzQOzfYlDeplDGGzaQta3kw6wqliCj.p3Gnf95kSK9sBRsgjPIs7FzDOA7UNRM05yL qo97AVA1TTLU.6XzuRNCP9Hbl6Wue9DoHLRP7ECpWs5frHDmsMacEpGYZRMsA4fPPnxOZDk3eR_B 2YRFv24T8GA.lT1c9iQ3e1k.bccxf6.yzaJFdpiHbQSxZ7K18DpfWJQr8b2zN6PnvUeaS9JhammL tMwfQmaV_gTW1RLAK26yG924wcVM8kwnoqbDziXhWR8H1OJcn5u_KDIwZo5qL_OMdcWaTEA4YaNt msjOMRHqvXhAoz4cGfkfn6EB5UEZI5rrb4VwSsgKwsyL0FgFxacfKi4AIWx6v.sRe0WKpPHsBLlc yrMNNfr49OAKiwWIt4NyaF2ixtoAU.ZDMssBDzOJsAV3Eec1ssTg.TV4GpSp2aVoK8_iBNahBrsX 5vIW9_1drt3G3BdHAjuKGTzk.wLUwbrnXW1F3ANDQIoqzE8TRWjKt.NwShdU031H2j2v3C7EVC1Y a6aHMolj0Tiv.3nq56lyiZV.6.ZTT_wczR0X9qPWkcQCVNUg1fsuCKFXHr0II0R4uoL2vQI6qsad 2MIC9wPQprxciyjTXrejQhOhjLD0Locv6MbzS2USdH88aiCdnxIigLI_ud3nLZs2vXjcn.oKEQVw I.ajkuslnWydcV8bDQQaZwijTeq3raM8zQxsPmOSk.PIEv0BaNFc8D.ouEemDqxymfcEDRZKwr_G yy.LvYEleqqceab29Rs6tvLCUSjMebUzoV1mNgnIofAVg9jxVklTMITBJDF9O2iAdWsO1olfWJN9 172nlzwYSVF9tnM4AnzkvQuAyYwD56q6VQpgHBENo.kiZg5D9gaQBR1zt Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:08:02 +0000 Received: by smtp427.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c1e8fbdfecb92234ebe9974b62f331c8; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 09:07:57 +0000 (UTC) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: From: Mark Perkins Message-ID: <27f4afd3-f146-b3b4-cfa1-2270e3388c4c@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 20:07:52 +1100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: fr X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200407-0, 07/04/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15620 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 09:08:11 -0000 Hi Avri If something is published as via a 'non RFC track', eg via wiki + epub format, this would not preclude publishing a later edition via the  the 'RFC track'? If so, then I propose starting with 1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around the various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises. and see how it goes. If this goes well, we could go onto your 2nd option. However, I would not want to preclude things published via 'non RFC track' from being later developed into something published via RFC track; but more to get things moving, ensure all the discussion and refinement is not lost down an email black hole, and hopefully move things forward on the RG internet drafts side Regards Mark P. Le 08/04/2020 à 14:24, avri@doria.org a écrit : > Hi, > > ** > > *Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC RG was spinning its > wheels. Our documents aren't moving along the path to RFC very easily > and except for interesting presentations at meetings, well worth while > in themselves, we have not been making great progress with our research.* > > * > > Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC publishing. > While I know it is not a requirement for the IRTF, I strongly believe > that research published as a RG RFC should have RG agreement for > publication. This does not mean that there must be agreement on all the > ideas and statements in the doc, but on the finished product. This was > the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. A bit > cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I believe was a better > document. > > > Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees with this approach. To many, > the RFC series is the publication method used by the IRTF and not > everything needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to > individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by IETF rules. > They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict when there is no > requirement to be. This question in one way or another has been asked by > several people in the RG over the last few years. The recent difficulty > has also been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a bit > less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point if they > won't get published. > > > I can see this point of view, and yet, I still find myself unable to > support sending a RG document to the IRSG  that the RG does not think is > ready for publication. Of course individual submissions would be a > different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the RG chair > in the same way. > > > Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off for the last > two years. The last time we talked we both felt, I believe, that it was > time to try something different to break the impasse.  I made a > suggestion for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where RG > internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and the other, > the production of a yearly publication that is an edited volume that > does not require RG approval. Mallory suggested that I bring this to the > RG for discussion. > > > What I am suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topic per > year and publish a collection of research, essays, and commentary on > that topic. How we would publish this remains to be discovered; could be > anything from a wiki site to an ebook or even finding a journal to do a > special release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would act as > lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members of the RG in > terms of putting such an effort together, as it does take work and > contributions. > > > In terms of topics for a first year, I have thought of two, but am not > wed to either of them at all. We would need to find a subject that > members of the RG, and hopefully others, would be willing to contribute > their writing to. > > > 1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around the > various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises. > > > 2 - Take the HRPC core question on “whether standards and protocols can > enable, strengthen or threaten human rights” and explore the various > viewpoints on that question, including the pros, the cons and anything > in between. > > > This topic is on our upcoming meeting agenda, and I hope to gather some > viewpoints that will guide how we can move forward, or not as the case > may be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list. > > Thanks > > avri > > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc -- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From nobody Wed Apr 8 02:21:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F8D3A0F0D for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 02:21:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qCda0HZ_zcJh for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 02:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DD123A0C96 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 02:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B51BE47; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 10:21:43 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bSvSomUaPsn2; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 10:21:41 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 12ED0BE20; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 10:21:41 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1586337701; bh=xkHbkSxN4w1cp0agPAp7QrbkPk7J5pRh2ZXkJYBZdLc=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=x3NReAcZp5ecJHgvycjHQvc/hwm+hd/0rwf4xImKk1wxZzaK0WM5dkhxIabagvf2R 2FDJDv1I9gQUi7hY7n4BED2cTptf8zpeUbywvmG1yiikwjHQYONuefUrCyJ4RnrOdW eWHV0DrRQbYtNkbiZiKRYqJrDGamH3etm57ibazU= To: avri@doria.org, hrpc@irtf.org References: From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 10:21:40 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="foeKVuhPSPCAQggKQKc2GzFO1X55zX1fu" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 09:21:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --foeKVuhPSPCAQggKQKc2GzFO1X55zX1fu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="v6sksevP0HSNhfgD8nMzftqyJKcfnm7Gc"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: avri@doria.org, hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication References: In-Reply-To: --v6sksevP0HSNhfgD8nMzftqyJKcfnm7Gc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D5D711EA49F2D26216AE35EE" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D5D711EA49F2D26216AE35EE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I like the idea of trying an "annual" (or "occasional") publication of people's works-in-progress. Sounds a bit like the proceedings of a workshop maybe? But however it's cast, I'd say, yes do try it. One other point, maybe a nit: for me, the RG can be happy that a document is ready for publication even if there is not consensus on all of the content of the document. I think HRPC could do more to publish documents in that kind of state via inclusion of some well-written caveats/disclaimers. Cheers, S. On 08/04/2020 04:24, avri@doria.org wrote: > Hi, >=20 > ** >=20 > *Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC RG was spinning its > wheels. Our documents aren't moving along the path to RFC very easily > and except for interesting presentations at meetings, well worth while > in themselves, we have not been making great progress with our research= =2E* >=20 > * >=20 > Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC publishing.= =C2=A0 > While I know it is not a requirement for the IRTF, I strongly believe > that research published as a RG RFC should have RG agreement for > publication. This does not mean that there must be agreement on all the= > ideas and statements in the doc, but on the finished product. This was > the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. A bit > cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I believe was a better= > document.=C2=A0 >=20 >=20 > Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees with this approach. To many= , > the RFC series is the publication method used by the IRTF and not > everything needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to > individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by IETF rules. > They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict when there is no > requirement to be. This question in one way or another has been asked b= y > several people in the RG over the last few years. The recent difficulty= > has also been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a bit > less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point if they > won't get published. >=20 >=20 > I can see this point of view, and yet, I still find myself unable to > support sending a RG document to the IRSG=C2=A0 that the RG does not th= ink is > ready for publication. Of course individual submissions would be a > different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the RG chair > in the same way. >=20 >=20 > Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off for the last= > two years. The last time we talked we both felt, I believe, that it was= > time to try something different to break the impasse.=C2=A0 I made a > suggestion for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where RG > internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and the other,= > the production of a yearly publication that is an edited volume that > does not require RG approval. Mallory suggested that I bring this to th= e > RG for discussion. >=20 >=20 > What I am suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topic per > year and publish a collection of research, essays, and commentary on > that topic. How we would publish this remains to be discovered; could b= e > anything from a wiki site to an ebook or even finding a journal to do a= > special release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would act a= s > lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members of the RG i= n > terms of putting such an effort together, as it does take work and > contributions. >=20 >=20 > In terms of topics for a first year, I have thought of two, but am not > wed to either of them at all. We would need to find a subject that > members of the RG, and hopefully others, would be willing to contribute= > their writing to. >=20 >=20 > 1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around th= e > various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises. >=20 >=20 > 2 - Take the HRPC core question on =E2=80=9Cwhether standards and proto= cols can > enable, strengthen or threaten human rights=E2=80=9D and explore the va= rious > viewpoints on that question, including the pros, the cons and anything > in between. >=20 >=20 > This topic is on our upcoming meeting agenda, and I hope to gather some= > viewpoints that will guide how we can move forward, or not as the case > may be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list. >=20 > Thanks >=20 > avri >=20 >=20 > * >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --------------D5D711EA49F2D26216AE35EE Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB tCFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT6JAj0EEwEIACcFAlo9 UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qG CxAApYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKk rRl8beJ7j1CWXAz9+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBr sjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPLF+X+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZ sdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4g1UQAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpG nvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advrek3UP71CKxpgtPmk d3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBG FEZYJGuaL4NwtBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wV N3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m6vtZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8v ovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7+8ACcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozv tEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQLuJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9 UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8rpKo9Ok Cz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqm uKhYrqJsCcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMT AAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVaW/rKSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQ IAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TGgMWrkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5 DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3urqR1YkCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4X CgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/0A9J9nrnBMq Zpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5h cJBDEN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPp MyEs04zvsbsl4vrp2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouB ur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGAxvKdcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQ yoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaKxlftjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V 4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjgUkyo1s4vjUOY8Dy I+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIOaHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg 2YVf0izSpyyzJeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc /MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZuLEFraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu 4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5iQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8 pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer3UMTVQg10vpa7pmqOGh jIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCPjt5uAxm bBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6 +uWyK171RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh 5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMRLpgRKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6K LChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuovwzatM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv 8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0zG36VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ5 6jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQeahr2ez3DRB g3qsHEjBV7QyU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxs QGNzLnRjZC5pZT6JAkAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEC HgECF4AFAlo+o3cCGQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeO M3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKow5oDSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP 2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3hRcsRvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s /69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmCY98iD+EeiIMAWBj Mw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jdh2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSl AblGjwZe4EIkCXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNg vDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZDIJpdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/r wWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4tvya7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o 4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4ul3qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKA xo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIcG9givQd 8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8SJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6 NXEGtw/r1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYc Jf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZJaf3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbY tWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u14Q07+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1 WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGfqtuSw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7E DuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/CgHw26293tlv e2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkK CwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiP GYnh/CXxIF8eLrfbe5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dT MrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWFetuO01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9 gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8v39+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZX ripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr1oD3RxYNhuWgyGF L64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Prm2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCb hrC3+yobyy/AUOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10M SU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxOjaoP0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXt GKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYzleLZ7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA 5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC2X4pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jokCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJb tySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/ l//34YT0auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX 4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sbedDSgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo 7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF31qG/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZj CROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcVYW6R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DR Gd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg4ImVOLGqsUg Vm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGx mqyHeLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88 zllsqhZAFQjNxqnkSzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2 EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJEscYyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezI z60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n2HwxyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqr Z0tIiQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4FeIYjlIXGghFWzsB 4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8EAuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwl vpNwiiBr42AYR751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGk bPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXHX5vaT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joB p823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1qCswY/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE 5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tqyA43niUMy2n6q690of3 berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7mEer0rCL 3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP7QuU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJy ZWxsIDxzdGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1R WgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jsc EADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZi0BigofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI 6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhni9gOJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7h qVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTysIgpMw0bA1y BU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1 n66vxxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIq hCljJ9x40Fkn/3r2BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw 2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjMYtUN1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nY m2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr5iWXO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T 5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/zekZyXRdS/oDKrB LUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78ba0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdIkBHAQQAQgABgUCWj1S oAAKCRAvPIc2gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06 TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6XE6i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs 0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I116u/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWk mfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/JG9aSSYvk3lznNiH41x9 M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IWOMqN2wo DjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBiQIzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcK BFyEz0YOK3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0 H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4vYlzkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQO JSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLxnNbKDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrh B+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+5HNHltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgB KVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq4hnl5+VC/48 ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPw nZbgJO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2Mvool sW08FiZh3Ej4dnJjj25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJ lMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8WLIaGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws 4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilcdPCYk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0Kd AlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTXo4+Ira2JUErL2cY zQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YuJAZwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsROTyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04 fZ2Ry4nF9hZM0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4N kC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5P3fWYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+ FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOospcL2lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8 AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbketPGRmWvx5xUvb2ALFB BdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3zRqk3mt tto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+Qg evYE020qpKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7 vxflUEDuuQINBFo9UDIBEAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuB HmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x/nLPCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD 8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHEhOVfBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5M sK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1DVI9DYo2D/zE 4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7Pb TuW/eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3 vDUew1h5QU1yDaWT3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcm oazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q61dfmr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r +oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8MAv2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22f Q0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOAHZR5iCunYghx8b7 Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQoqj1 gwARAQABiQIlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF 6TeR83xD6MasqXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfd n3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxiRkMdNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx25 2HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB++/KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjN JIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lXxMDrvKnXMkjseQ2oKjw rIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrfZtAZAGs okRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqY o3pcN2OE0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQk d0YjcqlB1E0svODHTzcSoRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmU yXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7IKP3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhk vMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeWIyss6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3 YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3DYzQY -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------D5D711EA49F2D26216AE35EE-- --v6sksevP0HSNhfgD8nMzftqyJKcfnm7Gc-- --foeKVuhPSPCAQggKQKc2GzFO1X55zX1fu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl6Nl6QACgkQWrL68XsX K+pshQ/8C60N4ngxh3k0oKijoI4CM4KGq7/6nGQsUxSz4GojkfTgOQ99fKLAnNjB f7wgilwbGXuwtSyASg6og5s17l0dxEZstdspHA1bfxPFTwKGmHMYXnWM9zH6fEfa FpBoq2f55SPauvKSTczaFVbdYF3XPajcFYHLlkOukQCLFrUDwC0Sr/F3JLqlsPju lf4Ulq+lfci1AkV7msxkA504+VwNdW3axSqBqUHRSev9X477W2h1isHeixgr95Fh DglWB0SFaDTOKhnofzdvxtrhshh92zAnOm1fQVLJ5Bd7LMShikZGbCJ8gAO1IUUm KKO5X/cpDp0Zns2jUa5DlwqArdlLDP/p6KSSnrEFkgd22RVQhSWJIdxsgs69pBIE If8qgGqOSnSZ3lneVXzDtqunz5W2H2uTSl1gKAVkD1YlCIWgL5QZjjCYhJ4kQBTE 1tv83IppPNj2vc29UKBI6aQTEmXx6mcIMQCGccb4yCMKLpl3UmfO1o4KghKSkiqA qY4riMavG8Msz6GBwpN3PttwlKO3CNbGClKJUBpw8Rlq08bp/RIp2a2p65O4UhrT gl1Du8heN5wE53Zk+b1JpmtAnAEp61VgmMtscMgNwNgcEGniPY3/wvwRKm41mgWH QPgGZ2Cce+cF9o3Kxs0y8QpnrlTNk/huDxKwZbKtLIa9+2Y9wGo= =VfpP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --foeKVuhPSPCAQggKQKc2GzFO1X55zX1fu-- From nobody Wed Apr 8 03:06:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69623A1026 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 03:06:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8OV0KOOVqCUG for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 03:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21D0B3A1027 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 03:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=42357 helo=[192.168.0.80]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1jM7bE-0006vJ-P9; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 11:06:27 +0100 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: <3A5AEC71-74DB-4FDF-B849-F2343959C903@csperkins.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B43E1F20-55B5-4CD9-9774-43F07C0177B7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 11:06:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> Cc: avri@doria.org, hrpc@irtf.org To: Stephen Farrell References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 10:06:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B43E1F20-55B5-4CD9-9774-43F07C0177B7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, There=E2=80=99s a lot of flexibility in how RGs can operate, and = publishing RFCs is only one option. For RFCs, consensus documents are certainly important, and are a common = way for groups to operate, but consensus is certainly not a requirement. = Provided that it=E2=80=99s clear why a document is being published, and = whose opinion it represents, a document that articulates a non-consensus = view can be valuable. It might even be more valuable if published = alongside a critique or discussion of the counterpoint view. The IRTF = can be reasonably creative in what RFCs it publishes.=20 Outside of RFCs, IRTF groups have certainly held workshops in the past, = and I'd encourage such activities. The RAIM workshop = was a good example of this, and the IAB = workshops are perhaps = another example that might be relevant. Such workshops often publish a = workshop report as an RFC, but we could also work with an appropriate = academic publisher to publish archival proceedings, or simply host = position papers on the website as we did with RAIM. More formal = workshops associated with academic conferences work for some research = groups. Perhaps working with a journal might work for HRPC?=20 Also, we can certainly be more creative in hosting research group = content on irtf.org , where it makes sense to do so. = If HRPC wants to host a curated set of resources, essays, commentary, = etc., then we can discuss how to do that. Think what makes sense to advance the research of the group, and we=E2=80=99= ll try to figure out how to support it. Cheers, Colin > On 8 Apr 2020, at 10:21, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > I like the idea of trying an "annual" (or "occasional") > publication of people's works-in-progress. Sounds a bit > like the proceedings of a workshop maybe? But however > it's cast, I'd say, yes do try it. >=20 > One other point, maybe a nit: for me, the RG can be > happy that a document is ready for publication even > if there is not consensus on all of the content of > the document. I think HRPC could do more to publish > documents in that kind of state via inclusion of some > well-written caveats/disclaimers. >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 > On 08/04/2020 04:24, avri@doria.org wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> ** >>=20 >> *Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC RG was spinning its >> wheels. Our documents aren't moving along the path to RFC very easily >> and except for interesting presentations at meetings, well worth = while >> in themselves, we have not been making great progress with our = research.* >>=20 >> * >>=20 >> Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC = publishing.=20 >> While I know it is not a requirement for the IRTF, I strongly believe >> that research published as a RG RFC should have RG agreement for >> publication. This does not mean that there must be agreement on all = the >> ideas and statements in the doc, but on the finished product. This = was >> the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. A bit >> cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I believe was a = better >> document.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees with this approach. To = many, >> the RFC series is the publication method used by the IRTF and not >> everything needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to >> individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by IETF rules. >> They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict when there is no >> requirement to be. This question in one way or another has been asked = by >> several people in the RG over the last few years. The recent = difficulty >> has also been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a bit >> less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point if they >> won't get published. >>=20 >>=20 >> I can see this point of view, and yet, I still find myself unable to >> support sending a RG document to the IRSG that the RG does not think = is >> ready for publication. Of course individual submissions would be a >> different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the RG = chair >> in the same way. >>=20 >>=20 >> Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off for the = last >> two years. The last time we talked we both felt, I believe, that it = was >> time to try something different to break the impasse. I made a >> suggestion for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where RG >> internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and the = other, >> the production of a yearly publication that is an edited volume that >> does not require RG approval. Mallory suggested that I bring this to = the >> RG for discussion. >>=20 >>=20 >> What I am suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topic = per >> year and publish a collection of research, essays, and commentary on >> that topic. How we would publish this remains to be discovered; could = be >> anything from a wiki site to an ebook or even finding a journal to do = a >> special release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would act = as >> lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members of the RG = in >> terms of putting such an effort together, as it does take work and >> contributions. >>=20 >>=20 >> In terms of topics for a first year, I have thought of two, but am = not >> wed to either of them at all. We would need to find a subject that >> members of the RG, and hopefully others, would be willing to = contribute >> their writing to. >>=20 >>=20 >> 1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around = the >> various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises. >>=20 >>=20 >> 2 - Take the HRPC core question on =E2=80=9Cwhether standards and = protocols can >> enable, strengthen or threaten human rights=E2=80=9D and explore the = various >> viewpoints on that question, including the pros, the cons and = anything >> in between. >>=20 >>=20 >> This topic is on our upcoming meeting agenda, and I hope to gather = some >> viewpoints that will guide how we can move forward, or not as the = case >> may be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list. >>=20 >> Thanks >>=20 >> avri >>=20 >>=20 >> * > <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc> --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ --Apple-Mail=_B43E1F20-55B5-4CD9-9774-43F07C0177B7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi,

There=E2=80=99s a lot of flexibility in how RGs can operate, = and publishing RFCs is only one option.

For RFCs, consensus documents are = certainly important, and are a common way for groups to operate, but = consensus is certainly not a requirement. Provided that it=E2=80=99s = clear why a document is being published, and whose opinion it = represents, a document that articulates a non-consensus view can be = valuable. It might even be more valuable if published alongside a = critique or discussion of the counterpoint view. The IRTF can be = reasonably creative in what RFCs it publishes. 

Outside of RFCs, IRTF = groups have certainly held workshops in the past, and I'd encourage such = activities. The RAIM workshop was a good example of this, and = the IAB workshops are perhaps another example that might = be relevant. Such workshops often publish a workshop report as an RFC, = but we could also work with an appropriate academic publisher to publish = archival proceedings, or simply host position papers on the website as = we did with RAIM. More formal workshops associated with academic = conferences work for some research groups. Perhaps working with a = journal might work for HRPC? 

Also, we can certainly be more creative = in hosting research group content on irtf.org, where it makes sense to do so. If HRPC wants to = host a curated set of resources, essays, commentary, etc., then we can = discuss how to do that.

Think what makes sense to advance the research of the group, = and we=E2=80=99ll try to figure out how to support it.

Cheers,
Colin




On 8 Apr = 2020, at 10:21, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


Hiya,

I like the idea of trying = an "annual" (or "occasional")
publication of people's = works-in-progress. Sounds a bit
like the proceedings of a = workshop maybe? But however
it's cast, I'd say, yes do try = it.

One other point, maybe a nit: for me, = the RG can be
happy that a document is ready for = publication even
if there is not consensus on all of the = content of
the document. I think HRPC could do more to = publish
documents in that kind of state via inclusion of = some
well-written caveats/disclaimers.

Cheers,
S.

On = 08/04/2020 04:24, avri@doria.org wrote:
Hi,

**

*Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC = RG was spinning its
wheels. Our documents aren't moving = along the path to RFC very easily
and except for = interesting presentations at meetings, well worth while
in = themselves, we have not been making great progress with our = research.*

*

Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC = publishing. 
While I know it is not a requirement for = the IRTF, I strongly believe
that research published as a = RG RFC should have RG agreement for
publication. This does = not mean that there must be agreement on all the
ideas and = statements in the doc, but on the finished product. This was
the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. = A bit
cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I = believe was a better
document. 


Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees = with this approach. To many,
the RFC series is the = publication method used by the IRTF and not
everything = needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to
individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by = IETF rules.
They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict = when there is no
requirement to be. This question in one = way or another has been asked by
several people in the RG = over the last few years. The recent difficulty
has also = been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a bit
less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point = if they
won't get published.


I can see this point of view, and yet, I still = find myself unable to
support sending a RG document to the = IRSG  that the RG does not think is
ready for = publication. Of course individual submissions would be a
different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the = RG chair
in the same way.


Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off = for the last
two years. The last time we talked we both = felt, I believe, that it was
time to try something = different to break the impasse.  I made a
suggestion = for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where RG
internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and = the other,
the production of a yearly publication that is = an edited volume that
does not require RG approval. = Mallory suggested that I bring this to the
RG for = discussion.


What I am = suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topic per
year and publish a collection of research, essays, and = commentary on
that topic. How we would publish this = remains to be discovered; could be
anything from a wiki = site to an ebook or even finding a journal to do a
special = release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would act as
lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members = of the RG in
terms of putting such an effort together, as = it does take work and
contributions.


In terms of topics for a first year, I have = thought of two, but am not
wed to either of them at all. = We would need to find a subject that
members of the RG, = and hopefully others, would be willing to contribute
their = writing to.


1 - Take the = draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around the
various aspects of that discussion and the issues it = raises.


2 - Take the HRPC = core question on =E2=80=9Cwhether standards and protocols can
enable, strengthen or threaten human rights=E2=80=9D and = explore the various
viewpoints on that question, including = the pros, the cons and anything
in between.


This topic is on our upcoming = meeting agenda, and I hope to gather some
viewpoints that = will guide how we can move forward, or not as the case
may = be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list.

Thanks

avri


*
<0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc= >

-- 
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/




= --Apple-Mail=_B43E1F20-55B5-4CD9-9774-43F07C0177B7-- From nobody Wed Apr 8 03:09:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B633A10A1 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 03:09:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.068 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.068 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.168, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uUDwNprQZ5Ez for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 03:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRA01-MR2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr90101.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.9.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 239113A10D3 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 03:08:54 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=eiiGG/p4AhDNqaHIEa3GONFUTbcssfisfwvtioO+bN2xCC2xpdYPNeu9s4xdJEDM7cLA+9a1seiRA/lMJfKHE/URojl4FkPxC59+a/TZ8218UKwBd3fdCgi8ObKnwxR2SdVoXFozVwbcTXm83C4lTSq2QEJilRrKQV+6xssykCopXjmszb9gq5Nm8KfgNBdD7VIRhBICgFRKuA/NdfeJecOAC954eBysJgU50TmzG7nMyNiq+6TRogh+ginzMA++zdYg31v1hGZso0yEe4jZWgLLLcLkRJ65x0PyX9TPbNt0BLgPYXPwKlp7go9/+nYgUSSgkPjD4AUecZ7nzxNPpA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=QP4aJP2y2WggzWhvG04o4scLHdT0hCr2CjVTF0GN5nY=; b=FX7JN2cd2TOsK3bHh0Xli6v+tyCrTwTc3+Z4HVlsak3BbRzDwA/aTBQuo+54VedYjgbVcdUKO/iGOS90pVuC2RDsTUEDrfn/DlzdCDRXQVtODi/eP3miIYINfNPbO2VLbwkYDOhXHUznfAkjUeb+6gNg7hHl/4YzdvD5tvj9jwen+hHWQIs980GfsHNE4JlR0mTKrG1f0G5Zu5lKfHy2ahQ/jpN5J6G037qfzIRkB6kem3GUkUAUQLbZwSIxPk2uLUm//Fo+GFjBJLlXSYP0HPd8pNTFB/zhJJS6bbPDcmpXTQ4zd5cDAV68EtPjVn+BgG7ajp/jeVYQXbvVskP2nw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=nokia.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=nokia.com; dkim=pass header.d=nokia.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=QP4aJP2y2WggzWhvG04o4scLHdT0hCr2CjVTF0GN5nY=; b=SlQ4Kj0cIGETvU+6L4uc5R0ko7RjEJSE3vYuxb19K3q1q9kKmfT+gP9snU/tWiQsQQsHvovrq8Pief/lL1jivoBcgxUIXjRg5Ze/ByK632RKr+X3yFd8ZnEVBFuZKcG3wUzhGr+50tepBqJPWOnoocah8GIeDP7gsY32i0Sod6Y= Received: from PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.177.208.146) by PR1PR07MB4858.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.177.210.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2900.14; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 10:08:52 +0000 Received: from PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c61:7804:6733:8e5e]) by PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c61:7804:6733:8e5e%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2900.012; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 10:08:51 +0000 From: "Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication Thread-Index: AQHWDVVSbexx2oRbZUiFt3EJLdnkyahu840AgAAIEGA= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 10:08:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=laurent.ciavaglia@nokia.com; x-originating-ip: [176.130.37.253] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b1da3577-3e02-4bef-4c90-08d7dba4d6b9 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: PR1PR07MB4858: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0367A50BB1 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(376002)(136003)(39860400002)(366004)(396003)(346002)(186003)(8676002)(71200400001)(66574012)(81156014)(8936002)(33656002)(26005)(55016002)(9686003)(316002)(6916009)(6506007)(53546011)(478600001)(81166007)(966005)(7696005)(66556008)(66476007)(64756008)(66446008)(66946007)(86362001)(2906002)(76116006)(52536014)(5660300002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nokia.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: UZtyGlJD8A7RsJIVB5GFKJJuz8J02M5rs8Xel9jL+IAUTJwkjIcLcGRwypy45cQ4cnBFL1OOv/AO/XqQm16gx0D81jUAQfguvGgN/AegVdiqNkkcUllDVGDdDsywnOi+w9OId85Wdvd4XCXCrRSsIA== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b1da3577-3e02-4bef-4c90-08d7dba4d6b9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Apr 2020 10:08:51.8090 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: D5RivqxURISSMcJQTFsW6OfWhG4+Q2jzmtUZ2wHflG3KlVfsIS6gG2z/fh7cLaRgBLKJ+681HMQpqLDB+WI+yUbpKFqsIurjnJIVMc3sF00= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PR1PR07MB4858 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 10:09:10 -0000 SGVsbG8sDQoNClRoaXMgaXMgYW4gaW50ZXJlc3RpbmcgYXBwcm9hY2guDQpJJ20gbm90IGNvbW1l bnRpbmcgb24gdGhlIGNob2ljZSBmb3IgdGhlIEhSUEMgdG9waWNhbCBjb250ZW50LCBidXQgYW0g c3VwcG9ydGl2ZSBvZiB0aGUgaWRlYS4NCg0KV2UgaGFkL2hhdmUgc2ltaWxhciBkaXNjdXNzaW9u IGluIE5NUkcgKGVzcC4gYW1vbmcgdGhlIGNoYWlycykgYWJvdXQgKHRoZSB0eXBlcyBvZikgcHVi bGljYXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIFJHIGNvbGxlY3RpdmUgb3V0Y29tZS4NClRoZSBJUlRGIFJGQyBzdHJl YW0gaXMgbm90IGFsd2F5cyB0aGUgbW9zdCBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBjaGFubmVsIChmb3IgdmFyaW91 cyByZWFzb25zOiBkZWxheSwgcHJvY2Vzcywgb3Igb3RoZXIgbGltaXRhdGlvbnMpLg0KV2UgZG9u J3QgaGF2ZSByZWNlbnQgcGFzdCBleGFtcGxlcywgYnV0IHdlIGFyZSBhaW1pbmcgdG8gcHVibGlz aCBhICJwYXBlciIgb24gUmVzZWFyY2ggQ2hhbGxlbmdlcyBmb3IgQUkgaW4gTmV0d29yayBNYW5h Z2VtZW50IGluIGEgam91cm5hbCBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgd29yayBmcm9tIHRoZSBSRywgaW52b2x2 aW5nIGEgZ3JvdXAgb2YgYXV0aG9ycy4NCkZvciBtZSwgdGhpcyB3b3VsZCBjbGVhcmx5IGJlIGEg Y29sbGVjdGl2ZSBvdXRjb21lIG9mIHRoZSBSRyB3b3JrLg0KSW4gcGFyYWxsZWwsIHdlIHdpbGwg aW5pdGlhdGUgYSBkcmFmdCBvbiB0aGUgc2FtZSB0b3BpYywgYW5kIHRoaXMgaXMgcGFydCBvZiB0 aGUgUkcgbWlsZXN0b25lcy4NCkkga25vdyB0aGlzIGlzIG5vdCBleGFjdGx5IHRoZSBzb2x1dGlv bi9hcHByb2FjaCB5b3UgZGVzY3JpYmUgYmVsb3csIGJ1dCB3YW50ZWQgdG8gc2hhcmUgYW5vdGhl ciwgc2ltaWxhciwgcG9zc2libGUgb3V0Y29tZSB3aGVuIGl0IGNvbWVzIHRvIHB1YmxpY2F0aW9u IG9mIFJHIHdvcmsuDQpTb21lIHNjaWVudGlmaWMgc29jaWV0aWVzIGFsc28gb2ZmZXJzIHNwZWNp YWwgaXNzdWVzLCBlZGl0b3JpYWxzLCBhbmQgY29uZmVyZW5jZXMvd29ya3Nob3BzIHJlcG9ydHMg aW4gdGhlaXIgcHJvY2VlZGluZ3MuDQpXZSBoYXZlIGRvbmUgdGhhdCBmb3IgYSBOTVJHIHdvcmtz aG9wIGFuZCBjb25mZXJlbmNlIHNlc3Npb24gam9pbnRseSBvcmdhbml6ZWQgd2l0aCBhbiBJRUVF IGNvbmZlcmVuY2UsIHdpdGggcGVlci1yZXZpZXdlZCBwYXBlcnMgb24gdGhlIHJlc2VhcmNoIHRv cGljIG9mIE5NUkcuIFRoZSBwcm9jZWVkaW5nIGdhdGhlcnMgYWxsIG1hdGVyaWFscyAodGhlIGNv bmZlcmVuY2UgcmVwb3J0IGFjdGluZyBhcyB0aGUgY29sbGVjdGl2ZSBvdXRjb21lIG9mIHRoZSB3 b3JrLCBhbmFseXNpcyBhbmQgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiksIGFuZCB0aGUgcGVlci1yZXZpZXdlZCBwdWJs aWNhdGlvbnMgYXJlIGluZGV4ZWQgaW4gSUVFRVhwbG9yZSAod2hpY2ggaXMgYSB1c2VmdWwgaW5j ZW50aXZlIGZvciBhY2FkZW1pYyByZXNlYXJjaGVycykuIFRoZSBmb3JtYXQgd2FzIGZvdW5kIHVz ZWZ1bCBhbmQgbm90IHNvIGNvbXBsaWNhdGVkIHRvIHB1dCBpbiBwbGFjZSBmb3IgYSBnb29kIHJl c3VsdC4gU3VjaCBhbiBhcHByb2FjaCBvZmZlciB0aGUgYWR2YW50YWdlIG9mIGZsZXhpYmlsaXR5 IGluIHRvcGljcyBhbmQgdGltZWx5IHB1YmxpY2F0aW9uL2F2YWlsYWJpbGl0eSBvZiByZXN1bHRz Lg0KDQpIVEgsIGJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywgTGF1cmVudC4NCnAucy46IG1pZ2h0IGJlIHdvcnRoIHRv IG9wZW4gdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gdG8gdGhlIElSU0c/IEFuZC9vciBhcyBhIHRvcGljIGZvciBh IGZ1dHVyZSBJUlRGIE9wZW4gbWVldGluZy4NCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0t LQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBocnBjIDxocnBjLWJvdW5jZXNAaXJ0Zi5vcmc+IE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBTdGVw aGVuIEZhcnJlbGwNCj4gU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBBcHJpbCA4LCAyMDIwIDExOjIyDQo+IFRv OiBhdnJpQGRvcmlhLm9yZzsgaHJwY0BpcnRmLm9yZw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2hycGNdIFBv c3NpYmxlIG9wdGlvbnMgZm9yIGEgSFJQQyByZXNlYXJjaCBwdWJsaWNhdGlvbg0KPiANCj4gDQo+ IEhpeWEsDQo+IA0KPiBJIGxpa2UgdGhlIGlkZWEgb2YgdHJ5aW5nIGFuICJhbm51YWwiIChvciAi b2NjYXNpb25hbCIpDQo+IHB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIG9mIHBlb3BsZSdzIHdvcmtzLWluLXByb2dyZXNz LiBTb3VuZHMgYSBiaXQNCj4gbGlrZSB0aGUgcHJvY2VlZGluZ3Mgb2YgYSB3b3Jrc2hvcCBtYXli ZT8gQnV0IGhvd2V2ZXINCj4gaXQncyBjYXN0LCBJJ2Qgc2F5LCB5ZXMgZG8gdHJ5IGl0Lg0KPiAN Cj4gT25lIG90aGVyIHBvaW50LCBtYXliZSBhIG5pdDogZm9yIG1lLCB0aGUgUkcgY2FuIGJlDQo+ IGhhcHB5IHRoYXQgYSBkb2N1bWVudCBpcyByZWFkeSBmb3IgcHVibGljYXRpb24gZXZlbg0KPiBp ZiB0aGVyZSBpcyBub3QgY29uc2Vuc3VzIG9uIGFsbCBvZiB0aGUgY29udGVudCBvZg0KPiB0aGUg ZG9jdW1lbnQuIEkgdGhpbmsgSFJQQyBjb3VsZCBkbyBtb3JlIHRvIHB1Ymxpc2gNCj4gZG9jdW1l bnRzIGluIHRoYXQga2luZCBvZiBzdGF0ZSB2aWEgaW5jbHVzaW9uIG9mIHNvbWUNCj4gd2VsbC13 cml0dGVuIGNhdmVhdHMvZGlzY2xhaW1lcnMuDQo+IA0KPiBDaGVlcnMsDQo+IFMuDQo+IA0KPiBP biAwOC8wNC8yMDIwIDA0OjI0LCBhdnJpQGRvcmlhLm9yZyB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiBIaSwNCj4gPg0K PiA+ICoqDQo+ID4NCj4gPiAqUmVjZW50bHkgaXQgaGFzIGZlbHQgdG8gbWUgYXMgdGhvdWdoIHRo ZSBIUlBDIFJHIHdhcyBzcGlubmluZyBpdHMNCj4gPiB3aGVlbHMuIE91ciBkb2N1bWVudHMgYXJl bid0IG1vdmluZyBhbG9uZyB0aGUgcGF0aCB0byBSRkMgdmVyeSBlYXNpbHkNCj4gPiBhbmQgZXhj ZXB0IGZvciBpbnRlcmVzdGluZyBwcmVzZW50YXRpb25zIGF0IG1lZXRpbmdzLCB3ZWxsIHdvcnRo IHdoaWxlDQo+ID4gaW4gdGhlbXNlbHZlcywgd2UgaGF2ZSBub3QgYmVlbiBtYWtpbmcgZ3JlYXQg cHJvZ3Jlc3Mgd2l0aCBvdXINCj4gcmVzZWFyY2guKg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gKg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gUGFy dCBvZiB0aGlzIGNvbWVzIGZyb20gYSBkaXNhZ3JlZW1lbnQgYWJvdXQgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBSRkMg cHVibGlzaGluZy4NCj4gPiBXaGlsZSBJIGtub3cgaXQgaXMgbm90IGEgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnQgZm9y IHRoZSBJUlRGLCBJIHN0cm9uZ2x5IGJlbGlldmUNCj4gPiB0aGF0IHJlc2VhcmNoIHB1Ymxpc2hl ZCBhcyBhIFJHIFJGQyBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBSRyBhZ3JlZW1lbnQgZm9yDQo+ID4gcHVibGljYXRp b24uIFRoaXMgZG9lcyBub3QgbWVhbiB0aGF0IHRoZXJlIG11c3QgYmUgYWdyZWVtZW50IG9uIGFs bCB0aGUNCj4gPiBpZGVhcyBhbmQgc3RhdGVtZW50cyBpbiB0aGUgZG9jLCBidXQgb24gdGhlIGZp bmlzaGVkIHByb2R1Y3QuIFRoaXMgd2FzDQo+ID4gdGhlIHByb2Nlc3Mgd2UgZm9sbG93ZWQgd2l0 aCBSRkMgODI4MCBhbmQgSSBiZWxpZXZlIGl0IHdvcmtzLiBBIGJpdA0KPiA+IGN1bWJlcnNvbWUg YW5kIHNsb3cgYXQgdGltZXMsIGJ1dCBpdCBsZWQgdG8gd2hhdCBJIGJlbGlldmUgd2FzIGEgYmV0 dGVyDQo+ID4gZG9jdW1lbnQuDQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IE5vdCBldmVyeW9uZSwgaW5jbHVkaW5n IG15IGNvLWNoYWlyLCBhZ3JlZXMgd2l0aCB0aGlzIGFwcHJvYWNoLiBUbyBtYW55LA0KPiA+IHRo ZSBSRkMgc2VyaWVzIGlzIHRoZSBwdWJsaWNhdGlvbiBtZXRob2QgdXNlZCBieSB0aGUgSVJURiBh bmQgbm90DQo+ID4gZXZlcnl0aGluZyBuZWVkcyB0byBiZSBhIHJvdWdoIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBkb2N1 bWVudC4gSW4gYWRkaXRpb24gdG8NCj4gPiBpbmRpdmlkdWFsIHN1Ym1pc3Npb25zLCBJUlRGIHN1 Ym1pc3Npb25zIGFyZSBub3QgYm91bmQgYnkgSUVURiBydWxlcy4NCj4gPiBUaGV5IHJpZ2h0bHkg YXNrIHdoeSBIUlBDIHNob3VsZCBiZSBzbyBzdHJpY3Qgd2hlbiB0aGVyZSBpcyBubw0KPiA+IHJl cXVpcmVtZW50IHRvIGJlLiBUaGlzIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGluIG9uZSB3YXkgb3IgYW5vdGhlciBoYXMg YmVlbiBhc2tlZCBieQ0KPiA+IHNldmVyYWwgcGVvcGxlIGluIHRoZSBSRyBvdmVyIHRoZSBsYXN0 IGZldyB5ZWFycy4gVGhlIHJlY2VudCBkaWZmaWN1bHR5DQo+ID4gaGFzIGFsc28gYmVlbiBuYW1l ZCBhcyBhIHJlYXNvbiBmb3Igd2h5IHJlc2VhcmNoZXJzIGhhdmUgc2VlbWVkIGEgYml0DQo+ID4g bGVzcyB3aWxsaW5nIHRvIHdvcmsgb24gZG9jdW1lbnRzIGxhdGVseTsgd2hhdCBpcyB0aGUgcG9p bnQgaWYgdGhleQ0KPiA+IHdvbid0IGdldCBwdWJsaXNoZWQuDQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IEkgY2Fu IHNlZSB0aGlzIHBvaW50IG9mIHZpZXcsIGFuZCB5ZXQsIEkgc3RpbGwgZmluZCBteXNlbGYgdW5h YmxlIHRvDQo+ID4gc3VwcG9ydCBzZW5kaW5nIGEgUkcgZG9jdW1lbnQgdG8gdGhlIElSU0fCoCB0 aGF0IHRoZSBSRyBkb2VzIG5vdCB0aGluayBpcw0KPiA+IHJlYWR5IGZvciBwdWJsaWNhdGlvbi4g T2YgY291cnNlIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgc3VibWlzc2lvbnMgd291bGQgYmUgYQ0KPiA+IGRpZmZlcmVu dCBtYXR0ZXIgYXMgdGhvc2UgZG8gbm90IG5lZWQgdG8gYmUgc2hlcGhlcmRlZCBieSB0aGUgUkcg Y2hhaXINCj4gPiBpbiB0aGUgc2FtZSB3YXkuDQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IE1hbGxvcnkgYW5kIEkg aGF2ZSBiZWVuIGRpc2N1c3NpbmcgdGhpcyBpbXBhc3NlIG9uIGFuZCBvZmYgZm9yIHRoZSBsYXN0 DQo+ID4gdHdvIHllYXJzLiBUaGUgbGFzdCB0aW1lIHdlIHRhbGtlZCB3ZSBib3RoIGZlbHQsIEkg YmVsaWV2ZSwgdGhhdCBpdCB3YXMNCj4gPiB0aW1lIHRvIHRyeSBzb21ldGhpbmcgZGlmZmVyZW50 IHRvIGJyZWFrIHRoZSBpbXBhc3NlLsKgIEkgbWFkZSBhDQo+ID4gc3VnZ2VzdGlvbiBmb3Igd29y a2luZyB3aXRoIHR3byB0cmFja3MsIG9uZSB0aGUgUkZDIHRyYWNrIHdoZXJlIFJHDQo+ID4gaW50 ZXJuZXQgZHJhZnRzIG5lZWQgUkcgc3VwcG9ydCBmb3IgcHVibGljYXRpb24gYXMgUkZDcywgYW5k IHRoZSBvdGhlciwNCj4gPiB0aGUgcHJvZHVjdGlvbiBvZiBhIHllYXJseSBwdWJsaWNhdGlvbiB0 aGF0IGlzIGFuIGVkaXRlZCB2b2x1bWUgdGhhdA0KPiA+IGRvZXMgbm90IHJlcXVpcmUgUkcgYXBw cm92YWwuIE1hbGxvcnkgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIHRoYXQgSSBicmluZyB0aGlzIHRvIHRoZQ0KPiA+IFJH IGZvciBkaXNjdXNzaW9uLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4NCj4gPiBXaGF0IEkgYW0gc3VnZ2VzdGluZyBmb3Ig dGhlIG5vbiBSRkMgdHJhY2sgaXMgdGhhdCB3ZSBwaWNrIGEgdG9waWMgcGVyDQo+ID4geWVhciBh bmQgcHVibGlzaCBhIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gb2YgcmVzZWFyY2gsIGVzc2F5cywgYW5kIGNvbW1lbnRh cnkgb24NCj4gPiB0aGF0IHRvcGljLiBIb3cgd2Ugd291bGQgcHVibGlzaCB0aGlzIHJlbWFpbnMg dG8gYmUgZGlzY292ZXJlZDsgY291bGQgYmUNCj4gPiBhbnl0aGluZyBmcm9tIGEgd2lraSBzaXRl IHRvIGFuIGVib29rIG9yIGV2ZW4gZmluZGluZyBhIGpvdXJuYWwgdG8gZG8gYQ0KPiA+IHNwZWNp YWwgcmVsZWFzZSwgaWYgc3VjaCBhIHRoaW5nIGlzIHBvc3NpYmxlLiBNYWxsb3J5IGFuZCBJIHdv dWxkIGFjdCBhcw0KPiA+IGxlYWQgZWRpdG9ycywgYnV0IHdlIHdvdWxkIG5lZWQgdG8gZW5saXN0 IGhlbHAgZnJvbSBtZW1iZXJzIG9mIHRoZSBSRyBpbg0KPiA+IHRlcm1zIG9mIHB1dHRpbmcgc3Vj aCBhbiBlZmZvcnQgdG9nZXRoZXIsIGFzIGl0IGRvZXMgdGFrZSB3b3JrIGFuZA0KPiA+IGNvbnRy aWJ1dGlvbnMuDQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IEluIHRlcm1zIG9mIHRvcGljcyBmb3IgYSBmaXJzdCB5 ZWFyLCBJIGhhdmUgdGhvdWdodCBvZiB0d28sIGJ1dCBhbSBub3QNCj4gPiB3ZWQgdG8gZWl0aGVy IG9mIHRoZW0gYXQgYWxsLiBXZSB3b3VsZCBuZWVkIHRvIGZpbmQgYSBzdWJqZWN0IHRoYXQNCj4g PiBtZW1iZXJzIG9mIHRoZSBSRywgYW5kIGhvcGVmdWxseSBvdGhlcnMsIHdvdWxkIGJlIHdpbGxp bmcgdG8gY29udHJpYnV0ZQ0KPiA+IHRoZWlyIHdyaXRpbmcgdG8uDQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+IDEg LSBUYWtlIHRoZSBkcmFmdC1wb2xpdGljcyBhcyB0aGUgc2VlZCBhbmQgYnVpbGQgdGhlIGVkaXRp b24gYXJvdW5kIHRoZQ0KPiA+IHZhcmlvdXMgYXNwZWN0cyBvZiB0aGF0IGRpc2N1c3Npb24gYW5k IHRoZSBpc3N1ZXMgaXQgcmFpc2VzLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4NCj4gPiAyIC0gVGFrZSB0aGUgSFJQQyBj b3JlIHF1ZXN0aW9uIG9uIOKAnHdoZXRoZXIgc3RhbmRhcmRzIGFuZCBwcm90b2NvbHMgY2FuDQo+ ID4gZW5hYmxlLCBzdHJlbmd0aGVuIG9yIHRocmVhdGVuIGh1bWFuIHJpZ2h0c+KAnSBhbmQgZXhw bG9yZSB0aGUgdmFyaW91cw0KPiA+IHZpZXdwb2ludHMgb24gdGhhdCBxdWVzdGlvbiwgaW5jbHVk aW5nIHRoZSBwcm9zLCB0aGUgY29ucyBhbmQgYW55dGhpbmcNCj4gPiBpbiBiZXR3ZWVuLg0KPiA+ DQo+ID4NCj4gPiBUaGlzIHRvcGljIGlzIG9uIG91ciB1cGNvbWluZyBtZWV0aW5nIGFnZW5kYSwg YW5kIEkgaG9wZSB0byBnYXRoZXIgc29tZQ0KPiA+IHZpZXdwb2ludHMgdGhhdCB3aWxsIGd1aWRl IGhvdyB3ZSBjYW4gbW92ZSBmb3J3YXJkLCBvciBub3QgYXMgdGhlIGNhc2UNCj4gPiBtYXkgYmUs IHdpdGggdGhlIGlkZWEuIEFsc28gaW50ZXJlc3RlZCBpbiBvcGluaW9ucyBvbiB0aGUgbGlzdC4N Cj4gPg0KPiA+IFRoYW5rcw0KPiA+DQo+ID4gYXZyaQ0KPiA+DQo+ID4NCj4gPiAqDQo+ID4NCj4g Pg0KPiA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+ ID4gaHJwYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPiBocnBjQGlydGYub3JnDQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aXJ0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9ocnBjDQo+ID4NCg== From nobody Wed Apr 8 05:03:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C56B93A07B9 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 05:03:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ogf5LQocBpCv for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 05:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A6993A07CB for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 05:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1jM9Ql-0001ek-Ol; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 14:03:46 +0200 Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 14:00:30 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: Mallory Knodel Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20200408120030.GH4529@mir> References: <158584100965.26396.1997070262931404871@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CxDuMX1Cv2n9FQfo" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 54a52893e10ae071b73780542c02a8d9e3f33e6f X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 2c7105051753a2a38a95e24053047c4e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Human Rights Protocol Considerations (hrpc) RG Virtual Meeting: 2020-04-08 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 12:03:53 -0000 --CxDuMX1Cv2n9FQfo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is it me, or is the interim / webex room still closed? Best, Niels On Tue, Apr 07, 2020 at 11:04:29AM -0400, Mallory Knodel wrote: > Dear all, >=20 > This is a kind reminder that tomorrow, 8 April, HRPC will have its virtual > interim meeting at 12:00 UTC. >=20 > The agenda and connection details can be found here: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2020-hrpc-03/session/hrpc >=20 > In addition to updates and discussion on RG work items, our meeting > features two excellent talks: >=20 > * Fenwick McKelvey will be presenting his 2018 book "Internet Daemons" a= nd > will be discussing the implications of network optimisation on > communication rights. > * Gurshabad Grover will be presenting a 2019 report from the Centre for > Internet and Society that discloses how ISPs in India are using SNI for > censorship, blocking and filtering content. >=20 > *Please note that I need slides from all presenters.* >=20 > See you tomorrow, > -Mallory >=20 > On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 11:25 AM IESG Secretary > wrote: >=20 > > The Human Rights Protocol Considerations (hrpc) Research Group will hold > > a virtual interim meeting on 2020-04-08 from 12:00 to 13:30 UTC. > > > > Agenda: > > Agenda HRPC IETF (107) Virtual Interim > > > > # Welcome and introduction (~0 minutes) > > > > Scribe, Note takers > > Agenda Review > > Research Group status > > > > # Talk: TBD (30 minutes) > > > > (Please send suggestions) > > > > # Talk: Gurshabad Grover (30 minutes) > > > > How India Censors The Web > > https://cis-india.org/internet-governance/blog/how-india-censors-the-web > > > > # Updates: Research group drafts (10 minutes) > > > > draft-irtf-hrpc-association, St=E9phane Couture > > > > # Update: Guidelines draft and short presentations from reviewers (10 > > minutes) > > > > draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines, Gurshabad Grover > > > > # Discussion: Avri Doria (10 minutes) > > > > Options for research publication > > > > Information about remote participation: > > https://cdt.webex.com/meet/mknodel > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Mallory Knodel > CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --CxDuMX1Cv2n9FQfo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAl6NvN4ACgkQDtg/OkaK yLOlMg//eyvw6w6lmXm8HhRaJIhtKcHhk6PQhjw5MCQJj5ED8R+OJ3Q9TPPh2K4J HePiWXevqoPZooh0PRYrZ51kG67NH9ZWmV/BnQcQ1RZKYpi7OACihEYupFYSj7m4 T0URdwbVANXIJs6sHelDpPawGuK2e639GUdA/8v68/irgikeYvQsOlW2ZaisAqG8 0KEvv0JNPwlKqDQgHgHtj+4vFvKmvyib8QwjATLDvkPszAvbYWVGRrxvWRnSmDX8 bm9pMKRaDziKgsSxtTFgDrZTBlyUgEa++iCPxudkCucffWJuI+4VeHbA59k8s8BG /x130Ogm5nugw8rst8iClYo852qjMNMhpo3vC5hl+EMUGpLUTTMTweRHfkkGNTQo tddL01CqT/cISJ2avTf1GXcNXuP1sWNeI4DZWWkd6a0Np2utf3X/FO99YBap/2AW KTvh4XG3X2UeQJ3NytRk7VqlB88iWDCJbpEDkv2X53XKZz6Do4Yu8r0sK3ca5Mkw F/f32YX+I7SnVd8e2TVtdEHeKkDX2vCg/2WZikGLx4tUZ8fp/yABpBiBKqOM/huu 3aq2ovG6p4P3lXUjPQzAieC7DprLRpIDKAUPfthX80zEmW+8BLDwesYMi7TRj5EH vXlu0RHf2pMjet4qSeyKEwnngHGfi/MOtqdO5fyHOk3QIF379B8= =wrox -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --CxDuMX1Cv2n9FQfo-- From nobody Wed Apr 8 09:27:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE163A0DF5 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:27:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NTwU-pYIaIIH for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AED53A0CFA for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1jMDXo-0003nb-86 for hrpc@irtf.org; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 18:27:16 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> From: Niels ten Oever Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABtChOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+iQJZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI7kCDQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 18:27:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 72be745e4a817e3b6c39dafddcade14f Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 16:27:23 -0000 Dear Avri, For me, as an active I-D author in this RG, publishing RFCs is very important. There are for me, as an academic, many other channels to publish papers and other documents (which I also do). The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and interaction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me the main reason to work and publish here. Best, Niels On 4/8/20 12:08 PM, Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote: > Hello, > > This is an interesting approach. > I'm not commenting on the choice for the HRPC topical content, but am supportive of the idea. > > We had/have similar discussion in NMRG (esp. among the chairs) about (the types of) publication of the RG collective outcome. > The IRTF RFC stream is not always the most appropriate channel (for various reasons: delay, process, or other limitations). > We don't have recent past examples, but we are aiming to publish a "paper" on Research Challenges for AI in Network Management in a journal based on the work from the RG, involving a group of authors. > For me, this would clearly be a collective outcome of the RG work. > In parallel, we will initiate a draft on the same topic, and this is part of the RG milestones. > I know this is not exactly the solution/approach you describe below, but wanted to share another, similar, possible outcome when it comes to publication of RG work. > Some scientific societies also offers special issues, editorials, and conferences/workshops reports in their proceedings. > We have done that for a NMRG workshop and conference session jointly organized with an IEEE conference, with peer-reviewed papers on the research topic of NMRG. The proceeding gathers all materials (the conference report acting as the collective outcome of the work, analysis and discussion), and the peer-reviewed publications are indexed in IEEEXplore (which is a useful incentive for academic researchers). The format was found useful and not so complicated to put in place for a good result. Such an approach offer the advantage of flexibility in topics and timely publication/availability of results. > > HTH, best regards, Laurent. > p.s.: might be worth to open the discussion to the IRSG? And/or as a topic for a future IRTF Open meeting. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: hrpc On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell >> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 11:22 >> To: avri@doria.org; hrpc@irtf.org >> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication >> >> >> Hiya, >> >> I like the idea of trying an "annual" (or "occasional") >> publication of people's works-in-progress. Sounds a bit >> like the proceedings of a workshop maybe? But however >> it's cast, I'd say, yes do try it. >> >> One other point, maybe a nit: for me, the RG can be >> happy that a document is ready for publication even >> if there is not consensus on all of the content of >> the document. I think HRPC could do more to publish >> documents in that kind of state via inclusion of some >> well-written caveats/disclaimers. >> >> Cheers, >> S. >> >> On 08/04/2020 04:24, avri@doria.org wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> ** >>> >>> *Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC RG was spinning its >>> wheels. Our documents aren't moving along the path to RFC very easily >>> and except for interesting presentations at meetings, well worth while >>> in themselves, we have not been making great progress with our >> research.* >>> >>> * >>> >>> Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC publishing. >>> While I know it is not a requirement for the IRTF, I strongly believe >>> that research published as a RG RFC should have RG agreement for >>> publication. This does not mean that there must be agreement on all the >>> ideas and statements in the doc, but on the finished product. This was >>> the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. A bit >>> cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I believe was a better >>> document. >>> >>> >>> Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees with this approach. To many, >>> the RFC series is the publication method used by the IRTF and not >>> everything needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to >>> individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by IETF rules. >>> They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict when there is no >>> requirement to be. This question in one way or another has been asked by >>> several people in the RG over the last few years. The recent difficulty >>> has also been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a bit >>> less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point if they >>> won't get published. >>> >>> >>> I can see this point of view, and yet, I still find myself unable to >>> support sending a RG document to the IRSG  that the RG does not think is >>> ready for publication. Of course individual submissions would be a >>> different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the RG chair >>> in the same way. >>> >>> >>> Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off for the last >>> two years. The last time we talked we both felt, I believe, that it was >>> time to try something different to break the impasse.  I made a >>> suggestion for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where RG >>> internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and the other, >>> the production of a yearly publication that is an edited volume that >>> does not require RG approval. Mallory suggested that I bring this to the >>> RG for discussion. >>> >>> >>> What I am suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topic per >>> year and publish a collection of research, essays, and commentary on >>> that topic. How we would publish this remains to be discovered; could be >>> anything from a wiki site to an ebook or even finding a journal to do a >>> special release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would act as >>> lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members of the RG in >>> terms of putting such an effort together, as it does take work and >>> contributions. >>> >>> >>> In terms of topics for a first year, I have thought of two, but am not >>> wed to either of them at all. We would need to find a subject that >>> members of the RG, and hopefully others, would be willing to contribute >>> their writing to. >>> >>> >>> 1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around the >>> various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises. >>> >>> >>> 2 - Take the HRPC core question on “whether standards and protocols can >>> enable, strengthen or threaten human rights” and explore the various >>> viewpoints on that question, including the pros, the cons and anything >>> in between. >>> >>> >>> This topic is on our upcoming meeting agenda, and I hope to gather some >>> viewpoints that will guide how we can move forward, or not as the case >>> may be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> avri >>> >>> >>> * >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Wed Apr 8 09:46:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA093A0F53 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:45:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zWVGPzb_3Q_f for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x834.google.com (mail-qt1-x834.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::834]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04A573A0F4A for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x834.google.com with SMTP id m33so367789qtb.3 for ; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 09:45:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gZujmSH/whgjmGYynB15jnA5E6ElIVMcavR1LActc9o=; b=k+vH4Pt2LfTcIIiIca+aAF97AgMgHB+fPtSX6T2sXCs/88c0n1UcLPaAOR1UErxNYh 6U3+t4ToLKW0xJwCvQLluwQv4CTLmd7YnG9Pe5ETOVrnNCzTCAUYsYczv8bwUmSUA9Rs rtcx9jkVcFzUEvzf1cNJxitPv9gwJwEILV4NfDoE+ZIJDb45d5Ru3XgYKGVF1j8E6VRz aWTKFvgf3PivRuIZhzbq1pn3iyY9rXMgYi7jfBvft/msKHbh2YJ6lwtHzQXSvgpaz5GX Dm98iExWtyfIJjiLibaB0Ejjtv3dLulai/VX6Vjof93ZnT13sWXbPon+E3dra6ZxMxkW oG/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gZujmSH/whgjmGYynB15jnA5E6ElIVMcavR1LActc9o=; b=M/DOHEyx27347/m6zyRne4SGL0b8/BzsWqlQezuEsureINZAaO9ePNsFLIgtqOSBJA jDGZ8JV6As9R1O5+/C2uJfKHBYGcRS+GveneYFCpg41m/rrRcckEF8LKYyY3wuzR5WQ8 FaTjNFdNH950u/d2OsrpefXrYXQdvNZCNT+Ozzb5y9YByfISoIAk5S7uNMLwdbPGdO9B 8efD7DmLULitw+5sAEm5jBSJx2pgKYHhstcXzTUizcFKGN8udpov3asM2x7zMeSIid0G iWgm1HPHIpj8M0ra9r3c6vlNpuSxigk/CcZ7WBFv8G2ISW+QqCR9riTNnNNViv3l3I/I 5O4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYPuGDPKngthzmvQgbutKHT25kqqqpWLu4YTrKYfSQz4cW9SruH fS/X9ReJpHok/GZQ9qf6bo4A8Bwuo8IMZzs9GGY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKbwD4TsQvPU4a1B/uvywR20mP6JsAajyHqKsySccc22fex+DnHMYw13jcABJdiQDr6z3Vim/XXiF100Fgt/lg= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4e33:: with SMTP id d19mr8192661qtw.20.1586364354633; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 09:45:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: farzaneh badii Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 12:45:43 -0400 Message-ID: To: avri@doria.org Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d7d07105a2ca3b59" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 16:45:58 -0000 --000000000000d7d07105a2ca3b59 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excellent approach Avri. I think this approach could potentially reduce the risk of the politicization of the RFC process, gives us an alternative to discuss the topics freely without having to be concerned about reaching an agreement or not. The approach also prevents us from diverting from RFCs consensus based processes. On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 11:25 PM wrote: > Hi, > > ** > > *Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC RG was spinning its > wheels. Our documents aren't moving along the path to RFC very easily > and except for interesting presentations at meetings, well worth while > in themselves, we have not been making great progress with our research.* > > * > > Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC publishing. > While I know it is not a requirement for the IRTF, I strongly believe > that research published as a RG RFC should have RG agreement for > publication. This does not mean that there must be agreement on all the > ideas and statements in the doc, but on the finished product. This was > the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. A bit > cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I believe was a better > document. > > > Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees with this approach. To many, > the RFC series is the publication method used by the IRTF and not > everything needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to > individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by IETF rules. > They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict when there is no > requirement to be. This question in one way or another has been asked by > several people in the RG over the last few years. The recent difficulty > has also been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a bit > less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point if they > won't get published. > > > I can see this point of view, and yet, I still find myself unable to > support sending a RG document to the IRSG that the RG does not think is > ready for publication. Of course individual submissions would be a > different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the RG chair > in the same way. > > > Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off for the last > two years. The last time we talked we both felt, I believe, that it was > time to try something different to break the impasse. I made a > suggestion for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where RG > internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and the other, > the production of a yearly publication that is an edited volume that > does not require RG approval. Mallory suggested that I bring this to the > RG for discussion. > > > What I am suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topic per > year and publish a collection of research, essays, and commentary on > that topic. How we would publish this remains to be discovered; could be > anything from a wiki site to an ebook or even finding a journal to do a > special release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would act as > lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members of the RG in > terms of putting such an effort together, as it does take work and > contributions. > > > In terms of topics for a first year, I have thought of two, but am not > wed to either of them at all. We would need to find a subject that > members of the RG, and hopefully others, would be willing to contribute > their writing to. > > > 1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around the > various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises. > > > 2 - Take the HRPC core question on =E2=80=9Cwhether standards and protoco= ls can > enable, strengthen or threaten human rights=E2=80=9D and explore the vari= ous > viewpoints on that question, including the pros, the cons and anything > in between. > > > This topic is on our upcoming meeting agenda, and I hope to gather some > viewpoints that will guide how we can move forward, or not as the case > may be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list. > > Thanks > > avri > > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --=20 Farzaneh --000000000000d7d07105a2ca3b59 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Excellent approach Avri. I think this approach could= potentially reduce the risk of the politicization of the RFC process, give= s us an alternative to discuss the topics freely without having to be conce= rned about reaching an agreement or not. The approach also prevents us from= diverting from RFCs consensus based processes.=C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Tue, Apr= 7, 2020 at 11:25 PM <avri@doria.org> wrote:
Hi,

**

*Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC RG was spinning its
wheels. Our documents aren't moving along the path to RFC very easily and except for interesting presentations at meetings, well worth while
in themselves, we have not been making great progress with our research.*
*

Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC publishing.=C2= =A0
While I know it is not a requirement for the IRTF, I strongly believe
that research published as a RG RFC should have RG agreement for
publication. This does not mean that there must be agreement on all the
ideas and statements in the doc, but on the finished product. This was
the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. A bit
cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I believe was a better
document.=C2=A0


Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees with this approach. To many, the RFC series is the publication method used by the IRTF and not
everything needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to
individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by IETF rules.
They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict when there is no
requirement to be. This question in one way or another has been asked by several people in the RG over the last few years. The recent difficulty
has also been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a bit
less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point if they
won't get published.


I can see this point of view, and yet, I still find myself unable to
support sending a RG document to the IRSG=C2=A0 that the RG does not think = is
ready for publication. Of course individual submissions would be a
different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the RG chair
in the same way.


Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off for the last
two years. The last time we talked we both felt, I believe, that it was
time to try something different to break the impasse.=C2=A0 I made a
suggestion for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where RG
internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and the other,
the production of a yearly publication that is an edited volume that
does not require RG approval. Mallory suggested that I bring this to the RG for discussion.


What I am suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topic per
year and publish a collection of research, essays, and commentary on
that topic. How we would publish this remains to be discovered; could be anything from a wiki site to an ebook or even finding a journal to do a
special release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would act as lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members of the RG in terms of putting such an effort together, as it does take work and
contributions.


In terms of topics for a first year, I have thought of two, but am not
wed to either of them at all. We would need to find a subject that
members of the RG, and hopefully others, would be willing to contribute
their writing to.


1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around the various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises.


2 - Take the HRPC core question on =E2=80=9Cwhether standards and protocols= can
enable, strengthen or threaten human rights=E2=80=9D and explore the variou= s
viewpoints on that question, including the pros, the cons and anything
in between.


This topic is on our upcoming meeting agenda, and I hope to gather some
viewpoints that will guide how we can move forward, or not as the case
may be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list.

Thanks

avri


*


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
--
Farzaneh
--000000000000d7d07105a2ca3b59-- From nobody Wed Apr 8 18:24:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C563A1CF2 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 18:24:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qtaGGnTdzqm5 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 18:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com (mail-wr1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B00F83A1CF4 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 18:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id g3so9951801wrx.2 for ; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 18:24:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K9lLPmSvHVChwKynNQz0yInSNsL5fLdD80g5PoygDDY=; b=lIMvIug6lOgmYFpLcyuuk0jipW8KfKaXRiZHFny7ymkHmgtkGmd3EMDoc4/lKVZkdD EyytXx4qiVP60ZP1jYpVaXQXRh0aap3HvfTo4Yffq2g2xVGD3FmoSW4KyIMTL2V7qR8R kBK1DMAzlmT7dPaaEogS7j1EcFVdJX0vC73Vg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K9lLPmSvHVChwKynNQz0yInSNsL5fLdD80g5PoygDDY=; b=I/U77Eq11XMPtp73VXlZtrXgmLs5eD4DBJgBdSl9z/UXOgXOmuWAeLe4Z/qJ1VI3VG ORuruQZcMJS6fy14AlIkyDG39Ffo+MYRFx0rK0t74s+52659c9VyNcI/R2vlUIWHCUBD FmvPWBfeLhWlDOgvM0wpy0y4GBP4dKfmac7ZUQK1bb7+djFexTcAHVPoVxFEt9rWkFZn BZvR62sD+L71d9gbAvITXVCfFTfredy1BVt9HE8WAerudCi3Xj46yfQZ3jWazJ5Oo94s Q6PnHORvh23qbnOXFtwTOZbhYq2EIO318k39mWI1TG+hKvMJDIsSsqqFWzlxWfnLHlVK CYug== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZHjhRCXuB5aVBKqhjzypl/mINA2K5A65a/pqg/mAPK/D49LgJ1 v3Pi4rCS0tbhVdxnK4hPIX4IHsMPxPnQBckNUffsHQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJVgFW3kDEad6Ry7emrh+v5v4tiosr/l4HbIDgsZRuU+evV5EvoQd546NutdgcMQCd6NyTfd38B4x/NEjr7qa8= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6143:: with SMTP id y3mr10995770wrt.242.1586395445039; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 18:24:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: From: Mallory Knodel Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 21:23:53 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" , irsg@irtf.org Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f9a91905a2d178ab" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 01:24:11 -0000 --000000000000f9a91905a2d178ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI all, (Looping IRSG for feedback as suggested). I have a couple of additions to what's been said already: First I do think consensus is important, but rather as a journey than a destination. In the various consensus driven environments that I have participated in (for going on two decades), consensus works best when participants are focussed on a good end result instead of the consensus, and whether or not it's been reached. Then again I completely agree with Colin that at times it might be a strategic move to intentionally avoid building consensus on a draft. We shouldn't be afraid of politicisation, but perhaps embrace it as a way to work out the most pressing big ideas in this field and at this point in time! Second, and mainly, my concern has been our relevance. There isn't a shortage of ways and means for one to publish these days. An e-book is rather easy to generate on one's own (and here I'm going to leave aside criticisms of the I-D generation process having myself published academic articles with formulae, e-books, not to mention printed matter-- oh my). Or one might have an idea for a blog post, pitch it to an already established publication and then merely send a message to the hrpc@ list asking for feedback on its content if one were to want to engage this community. Upthread we have heard from published authors and academics in HRPC saying they might have good and relevant research yet publish it elsewhere rather than here. I'm afraid that we are taking for granted the essential value of HRPC and the IRTF if we are diverting work into unestablished publishing options beyond what we do: the RFC series. I would like to end by appreciating those who have weighed in with past experiences of publishing beyond RFCs, which I am all for when they are fit for purpose. As for the RG's draft-political, I'm with Mark: Let's see how it goes as a separate edition but not preclude it from the RFC series. -Mallory On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 6:10 AM Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote: > Hello, > > This is an interesting approach. > I'm not commenting on the choice for the HRPC topical content, but am > supportive of the idea. > > We had/have similar discussion in NMRG (esp. among the chairs) about (the > types of) publication of the RG collective outcome. > The IRTF RFC stream is not always the most appropriate channel (for > various reasons: delay, process, or other limitations). > We don't have recent past examples, but we are aiming to publish a "paper= " > on Research Challenges for AI in Network Management in a journal based on > the work from the RG, involving a group of authors. > For me, this would clearly be a collective outcome of the RG work. > In parallel, we will initiate a draft on the same topic, and this is part > of the RG milestones. > I know this is not exactly the solution/approach you describe below, but > wanted to share another, similar, possible outcome when it comes to > publication of RG work. > Some scientific societies also offers special issues, editorials, and > conferences/workshops reports in their proceedings. > We have done that for a NMRG workshop and conference session jointly > organized with an IEEE conference, with peer-reviewed papers on the > research topic of NMRG. The proceeding gathers all materials (the > conference report acting as the collective outcome of the work, analysis > and discussion), and the peer-reviewed publications are indexed in > IEEEXplore (which is a useful incentive for academic researchers). The > format was found useful and not so complicated to put in place for a good > result. Such an approach offer the advantage of flexibility in topics and > timely publication/availability of results. > > HTH, best regards, Laurent. > p.s.: might be worth to open the discussion to the IRSG? And/or as a topi= c > for a future IRTF Open meeting. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: hrpc On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell > > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 11:22 > > To: avri@doria.org; hrpc@irtf.org > > Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication > > > > > > Hiya, > > > > I like the idea of trying an "annual" (or "occasional") > > publication of people's works-in-progress. Sounds a bit > > like the proceedings of a workshop maybe? But however > > it's cast, I'd say, yes do try it. > > > > One other point, maybe a nit: for me, the RG can be > > happy that a document is ready for publication even > > if there is not consensus on all of the content of > > the document. I think HRPC could do more to publish > > documents in that kind of state via inclusion of some > > well-written caveats/disclaimers. > > > > Cheers, > > S. > > > > On 08/04/2020 04:24, avri@doria.org wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > ** > > > > > > *Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC RG was spinning its > > > wheels. Our documents aren't moving along the path to RFC very easily > > > and except for interesting presentations at meetings, well worth whil= e > > > in themselves, we have not been making great progress with our > > research.* > > > > > > * > > > > > > Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC publishin= g. > > > While I know it is not a requirement for the IRTF, I strongly believe > > > that research published as a RG RFC should have RG agreement for > > > publication. This does not mean that there must be agreement on all t= he > > > ideas and statements in the doc, but on the finished product. This wa= s > > > the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. A bit > > > cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I believe was a bett= er > > > document. > > > > > > > > > Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees with this approach. To > many, > > > the RFC series is the publication method used by the IRTF and not > > > everything needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to > > > individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by IETF rules. > > > They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict when there is no > > > requirement to be. This question in one way or another has been asked > by > > > several people in the RG over the last few years. The recent difficul= ty > > > has also been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a bit > > > less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point if they > > > won't get published. > > > > > > > > > I can see this point of view, and yet, I still find myself unable to > > > support sending a RG document to the IRSG that the RG does not think > is > > > ready for publication. Of course individual submissions would be a > > > different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the RG chai= r > > > in the same way. > > > > > > > > > Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off for the la= st > > > two years. The last time we talked we both felt, I believe, that it w= as > > > time to try something different to break the impasse. I made a > > > suggestion for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where RG > > > internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and the othe= r, > > > the production of a yearly publication that is an edited volume that > > > does not require RG approval. Mallory suggested that I bring this to > the > > > RG for discussion. > > > > > > > > > What I am suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topic pe= r > > > year and publish a collection of research, essays, and commentary on > > > that topic. How we would publish this remains to be discovered; could > be > > > anything from a wiki site to an ebook or even finding a journal to do= a > > > special release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would act > as > > > lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members of the RG > in > > > terms of putting such an effort together, as it does take work and > > > contributions. > > > > > > > > > In terms of topics for a first year, I have thought of two, but am no= t > > > wed to either of them at all. We would need to find a subject that > > > members of the RG, and hopefully others, would be willing to contribu= te > > > their writing to. > > > > > > > > > 1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around > the > > > various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises. > > > > > > > > > 2 - Take the HRPC core question on =E2=80=9Cwhether standards and pro= tocols can > > > enable, strengthen or threaten human rights=E2=80=9D and explore the = various > > > viewpoints on that question, including the pros, the cons and anythin= g > > > in between. > > > > > > > > > This topic is on our upcoming meeting agenda, and I hope to gather so= me > > > viewpoints that will guide how we can move forward, or not as the cas= e > > > may be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > avri > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > hrpc mailing list > > > hrpc@irtf.org > > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --=20 Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --000000000000f9a91905a2d178ab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
HI all,

(Looping IRSG for feedback as s= uggested).

I have a couple of additions to what= 9;s been said already:

First I do think consensus = is important, but rather as a journey than a destination. In the various co= nsensus driven environments=C2=A0that I have participated in (for going on = two decades), consensus works best when participants are focussed on a good= end result instead of the consensus, and whether or not it's been reac= hed.

Then again I completely agree with Colin that= at times it might be a strategic move to intentionally avoid building cons= ensus on a draft. We shouldn't be afraid of politicisation, but perhaps= embrace it as a way to work out the most pressing big ideas in this field = and at this point in time!

Second, and mainly, my = concern has been our relevance. There isn't a shortage of ways and mean= s for one to publish these days. An e-book is rather easy to generate on on= e's own (and here I'm going to leave aside criticisms of the I-D ge= neration process having myself published academic articles with formulae, e= -books, not to mention printed matter-- oh my). Or one might have an idea = for a blog post, pitch it to an already established publication and then me= rely send a message to the hrpc@ list asking for feedback on its content if= one were to want to engage this community.=C2=A0Upthread we have heard fro= m published authors and academics in HRPC saying they might have good and r= elevant research yet publish it elsewhere rather than here.

<= /div>
I'm afraid that we are taking for granted the essential value= of HRPC and the IRTF if we are diverting work into unestablished=C2=A0publ= ishing options beyond what we do: the RFC series.

= I would like to end by appreciating those who have weighed in with past exp= eriences of publishing beyond RFCs, which I am all for when they are fit fo= r purpose. As for the RG's draft-political, I'm with Mark: Let'= s see how it goes as a separate edition but not preclude it from the RFC se= ries.

-Mallory

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 6:10 AM= Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) <laurent.ciavaglia@nokia.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hello,

This is an interesting approach.
I'm not commenting on the choice for the HRPC topical content, but am s= upportive of the idea.

We had/have similar discussion in NMRG (esp. among the chairs) about (the t= ypes of) publication of the RG collective outcome.
The IRTF RFC stream is not always the most appropriate channel (for various= reasons: delay, process, or other limitations).
We don't have recent past examples, but we are aiming to publish a &quo= t;paper" on Research Challenges for AI in Network Management in a jour= nal based on the work from the RG, involving a group of authors.
For me, this would clearly be a collective outcome of the RG work.
In parallel, we will initiate a draft on the same topic, and this is part o= f the RG milestones.
I know this is not exactly the solution/approach you describe below, but wa= nted to share another, similar, possible outcome when it comes to publicati= on of RG work.
Some scientific societies also offers special issues, editorials, and confe= rences/workshops reports in their proceedings.
We have done that for a NMRG workshop and conference session jointly organi= zed with an IEEE conference, with peer-reviewed papers on the research topi= c of NMRG. The proceeding gathers all materials (the conference report acti= ng as the collective outcome of the work, analysis and discussion), and the= peer-reviewed publications are indexed in IEEEXplore (which is a useful in= centive for academic researchers). The format was found useful and not so c= omplicated to put in place for a good result. Such an approach offer the ad= vantage of flexibility in topics and timely publication/availability of res= ults.

HTH, best regards, Laurent.
p.s.: might be worth to open the discussion to the IRSG? And/or as a topic = for a future IRTF Open meeting.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: hrpc <hrpc-bounces@irtf.org> On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell
> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 11:22
> To: avri@doria.org= ; hrpc@irtf.org<= br> > Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication >
>
> Hiya,
>
> I like the idea of trying an "annual" (or "occasional&q= uot;)
> publication of people's works-in-progress. Sounds a bit
> like the proceedings of a workshop maybe? But however
> it's cast, I'd say, yes do try it.
>
> One other point, maybe a nit: for me, the RG can be
> happy that a document is ready for publication even
> if there is not consensus on all of the content of
> the document. I think HRPC could do more to publish
> documents in that kind of state via inclusion of some
> well-written caveats/disclaimers.
>
> Cheers,
> S.
>
> On 08/04/2020 04:24, avri@doria.org wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > **
> >
> > *Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC RG was spinning it= s
> > wheels. Our documents aren't moving along the path to RFC ver= y easily
> > and except for interesting presentations at meetings, well worth = while
> > in themselves, we have not been making great progress with our > research.*
> >
> > *
> >
> > Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC publi= shing.
> > While I know it is not a requirement for the IRTF, I strongly bel= ieve
> > that research published as a RG RFC should have RG agreement for<= br> > > publication. This does not mean that there must be agreement on a= ll the
> > ideas and statements in the doc, but on the finished product. Thi= s was
> > the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. A b= it
> > cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I believe was a = better
> > document.
> >
> >
> > Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees with this approach. T= o many,
> > the RFC series is the publication method used by the IRTF and not=
> > everything needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to=
> > individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by IETF ru= les.
> > They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict when there is no > > requirement to be. This question in one way or another has been a= sked by
> > several people in the RG over the last few years. The recent diff= iculty
> > has also been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a= bit
> > less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point if th= ey
> > won't get published.
> >
> >
> > I can see this point of view, and yet, I still find myself unable= to
> > support sending a RG document to the IRSG=C2=A0 that the RG does = not think is
> > ready for publication. Of course individual submissions would be = a
> > different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the RG = chair
> > in the same way.
> >
> >
> > Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off for th= e last
> > two years. The last time we talked we both felt, I believe, that = it was
> > time to try something different to break the impasse.=C2=A0 I mad= e a
> > suggestion for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where R= G
> > internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and the = other,
> > the production of a yearly publication that is an edited volume t= hat
> > does not require RG approval. Mallory suggested that I bring this= to the
> > RG for discussion.
> >
> >
> > What I am suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topi= c per
> > year and publish a collection of research, essays, and commentary= on
> > that topic. How we would publish this remains to be discovered; c= ould be
> > anything from a wiki site to an ebook or even finding a journal t= o do a
> > special release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would= act as
> > lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members of th= e RG in
> > terms of putting such an effort together, as it does take work an= d
> > contributions.
> >
> >
> > In terms of topics for a first year, I have thought of two, but a= m not
> > wed to either of them at all. We would need to find a subject tha= t
> > members of the RG, and hopefully others, would be willing to cont= ribute
> > their writing to.
> >
> >
> > 1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition aro= und the
> > various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises.
> >
> >
> > 2 - Take the HRPC core question on =E2=80=9Cwhether standards and= protocols can
> > enable, strengthen or threaten human rights=E2=80=9D and explore = the various
> > viewpoints on that question, including the pros, the cons and any= thing
> > in between.
> >
> >
> > This topic is on our upcoming meeting agenda, and I hope to gathe= r some
> > viewpoints that will guide how we can move forward, or not as the= case
> > may be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list. > >
> > Thanks
> >
> > avri
> >
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > hrpc mailing list
> > hrpc@irtf.org<= /a>
> > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > >
_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Mall= ory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg finger= print :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

--000000000000f9a91905a2d178ab-- From nobody Thu Apr 9 12:36:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900343A0CAB for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:36:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ws4eFnMIZM3M for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:2a03:6000:1004:1::68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A976D3A0CA5 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48yrx20wW6zFhJ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:36:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1586460982; bh=sW43q/C8iKidRPWxUJR7UenGtzfdqQH6etO8h5kZpBY=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=TdXK+pS4E7QjPwPgl5y9P9cTxS4qgtf7Sr/e56092jsXJG5p8JjbgblbxODibXNTt ft/C3BS881dkw6Rer84An7PRjNuOA7PwOv1ZF1FlnSy0oNb2Kmz/IMcDW4piZm1JOt IHCyBUAG5JIKJEDJTYrPZyFq4WCrdfTEUPJPmzi0= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HpKy4kk_Nxgl; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:36:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 21:36:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 59FDD6020CF9; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B6082C65; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 15:27:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Niels ten Oever cc: hrpc@irtf.org In-Reply-To: <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> Message-ID: References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 19:36:32 -0000 On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote: > The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and interaction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me the main reason to work and publish here. I agree with Niels. Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF community takes human rights considerations more seriously. Paul From nobody Thu Apr 9 13:09:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B913A0D73 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:09:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l6vSgAtlx1q5 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6BE13A0D6F for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id 13so1052311qtt.5 for ; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 13:09:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EWuNo+yUZdWrgukgBdFNGmCXeF7NRPJH5sOt0v779mM=; b=TcGMJlqPKxMO8klgnFHHibpqAPdzynnCQqiNsWMGZtQ7xKfoGQTUUx0eDIyCSRezq7 QqZUe1Y4GVCFmw6ksRREAUlPyJjvXxVs1cBXrvRzmrSPZeU5UCa6GPciZ/BFnRUPL3vT /RNbw/c0SGjnq993UvNs9Pf1gdIAHijKQSt9g96TcyQZ/PTg+En6VO5fSY+H7gokH0uP B7hJUnZ7qxjFNWfFEYZqoseo/m0yGbbOzQW/zHM8+j3hDnqMx75P91br3+d6ZEtpfdKh hlWNkRUWX671UcUIgvMTbZD0TJxNEBqIC3mF0/viWuuq+kBrM4vsL7EGyYY7WWKMmlSl iCUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EWuNo+yUZdWrgukgBdFNGmCXeF7NRPJH5sOt0v779mM=; b=KRHT7rdzHToS09/cPvnt0BX/Kge7oLglNdirKw3lCxb0D4mfviRrVYrNTDORvMzuA9 8drnTxE9BA+74FuZI74U1wbVbr9Auatkr6dEUB4v/aS3qqwBX3O5Tr9V4T8bCYVKLgCI STa3OdkBEgeDZOA2R5lYZEwv/QH0MAoM1dTUbTHzefYPLUZb2WcRKRRwXuooH0HDVeOL ram1Du92zMW2HZLw3iDybNum7JnrCbID+lMuIqi6gFxY4OMAoC4vvt0p0ejROsgZ5BBL wwruuj3DS6KH02ekhm4ATC3mzmeEvH23UU/iO91Ocv0NW6BP09mzHtola0/4bBD9I+8u lhhg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaNxhvqU9AZo0arUzF8wKbkoPQhftb7viEyVm9fBqVkIDH/yPjq hH6aFEbhRCWXuBXpwi/8AmjWwpEa3c/q/CcNU9Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJm+yen+9Ov3IY1qClYqAU9Tw0vXdy57qruL+v9xOdVS7Au9OmDItKUvYu4cJX1Me3jdMLYfKJfitLwMf2PuBY= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4cd1:: with SMTP id l17mr1241557qtv.20.1586462980455; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 13:09:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: From: farzaneh badii Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:09:13 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Wouters Cc: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066469105a2e1326a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 20:09:47 -0000 --00000000000066469105a2e1326a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Sure but not every enthusiastic academic piece qualifies as an RFC. Half baked conceptual ideas that need years of development and their implementation is doubtful too and there is no consensus around them should not just be pushed through unless there are fundamental and clear substantive changes in the document. The evolution of concepts must be clear with strong empirical analysis. Or it has to be narrower without grand theoretical and philosophical claims. Otherwise publishing a piece as RFC is merely giving lip service to human rights. I don't know how this process is going to play out but maybe academics can layout their concepts and ideas in the non-RFC track and RG can consider what needs to be transferred to the RFC track. I think academics are in need of good feedback to build on what they have, and the non-RFC track should include ways to receive feedback from the IETF community so that they can improve their pieces and be published without the rush to creating an RFC out of every opinion and manifesto. Farzaneh On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Wouters wrote: > On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote: > > > The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and > interaction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me > the main reason to work and publish here. > > I agree with Niels. Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF > community takes human rights considerations more seriously. > > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --00000000000066469105a2e1326a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sure but not every enthusiastic academic piece qualifies as an = RFC. Half baked conceptual ideas that need years of development and their i= mplementation is doubtful too and there is no consensus around them should = not just be pushed through unless there are fundamental and clear substanti= ve changes in the document. The evolution of concepts must be clear with st= rong empirical=C2=A0analysis. Or it has to be narrower without grand theore= tical and philosophical claims.=C2=A0 Otherwise publishing a piece as RFC i= s merely giving lip service=C2=A0to human rights. I don't know how this= process is going to play out but maybe academics can layout their=C2=A0 co= ncepts and ideas in the non-RFC track and=C2=A0 RG can consider what needs = to be transferred=C2=A0to the RFC track. I think academics are in need of g= ood feedback to build on what they have, and the non-RFC track should inclu= de ways to receive feedback from the IETF community so that they can improv= e their pieces and be published without the rush to creating an RFC out of = every opinion and manifesto.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Farzaneh
=


On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote:=

> The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and i= nteraction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me the= main reason to work and publish here.

I agree with Niels. Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF
community takes human rights considerations more seriously.

Paul

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
--00000000000066469105a2e1326a-- From nobody Thu Apr 9 13:45:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C5053A0E19 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:45:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UDE0H9U3SLle for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E57F83A0E2E for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1jMe31-0003Kp-9E; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 22:45:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> X-Referenced-Uid: 21111 Thread-Topic: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-Blue-Identity: !l=318&o=342&fo=3260&pl=305&po=0&qs=PREFIX&f=HTML&n=Niels%20ten%20Oever&e=mail%40nielstenoever.net&m=!%3AMTU3NWU4OTAtZmMyYy00ZDU2LTgyMjktYzkyODg4YTRiOGNi%3ASU5CT1g%3D%3AMjExMTE%3D%3AANSWERED&p=305&q=SHOW X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true User-Agent: Android MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----W1S7O3ZV780SHCSU1J976CM0NYO3BG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Niels ten Oever Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 22:45:09 +0200 To: farzaneh badii CC: Paul Wouters ,hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a2a1964a1561ab7a63907465a561ffe8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 20:45:33 -0000 ------W1S7O3ZV780SHCSU1J976CM0NYO3BG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I actually hope many people will write Internet-Drafts about this topic=2E = I have no problem with it if these I-Ds and RFCs would criticize each other= and build on each other=2E I'd very much welcome an ID from Dr=2E Badii on= the topic=2E Academics have sufficient venues to talk among each other on = this topic, such as Giganet=2E On Apr 9, 2020, 22:09, at 22:09, farzaneh b= adii wrote: >Sure but not every enthusiastic= academic piece qualifies as an RFC=2E >Half >baked conceptual ideas that n= eed years of development and their >implementation is doubtful too and ther= e is no consensus around them >should >not just be pushed through unless th= ere are fundamental and clear >substantive changes in the document=2E The e= volution of concepts must be >clear with strong empirical analysis=2E Or it= has to be narrower without >grand theoretical and philosophical claims=2E = Otherwise publishing a >piece >as RFC is merely giving lip service to huma= n rights=2E I don't know how >this >process is going to play out but maybe = academics can layout their >concepts >and ideas in the non-RFC track and = RG can consider what needs to be >transferred to the RFC track=2E I think a= cademics are in need of good >feedback to build on what they have, and the = non-RFC track should >include >ways to receive feedback from the IETF commu= nity so that they can >improve >their pieces and be published without the r= ush to creating an RFC out >of >every opinion and manifesto=2E > >Farzaneh = > > >On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Wouters wrote: = > >> On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> >> > The publication in = the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, >and >> interaction with, the= technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for >me >> the main reason to = work and publish here=2E >> >> I agree with Niels=2E Publishing an RFC is n= eeded so that the IETF >> community takes human rights considerations more = seriously=2E >> >> Paul >> >> _____________________________________________= __ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf=2Eorg >> https://www=2Eirtf=2Eorg/mail= man/listinfo/hrpc >> ------W1S7O3ZV780SHCSU1J976CM0NYO3BG Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I actually h= ope many people will write Internet-Drafts about this topic=2E I have no pr= oblem with it if these I-Ds and RFCs would criticize each other and build o= n each other=2E I'd very much welcome an ID from Dr=2E Badii on the topic= =2E Academics have sufficient venues to talk among each other on this topic= , such as Giganet=2E
On Apr 9, 2020, at 2= 2:09, farzaneh badii <farzaneh=2Ebadii@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:
Sure but not= every enthusiastic academic piece qualifies as an RFC=2E Half baked concep= tual ideas that need years of development and their implementation is doubt= ful too and there is no consensus around them should not just be pushed thr= ough unless there are fundamental and clear substantive changes in the docu= ment=2E The evolution of concepts must be clear with strong empirical = analysis=2E Or it has to be narrower without grand theoretical and philosop= hical claims=2E  Otherwise publishing a piece as RFC is merely giving = lip service to human rights=2E I don't know how this process is going = to play out but maybe academics can layout their  concepts and ideas i= n the non-RFC track and  RG can consider what needs to be transferred&= nbsp;to the RFC track=2E I think academics are in need of good feedback to = build on what they have, and the non-RFC track should include ways to recei= ve feedback from the IETF community so that they can improve their pieces a= nd be published without the rush to creating an RFC out of every opinion an= d manifesto=2E  

Farzaneh =


On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 3:3= 6 PM Paul Wouters < paul@nohats=2E= ca> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote:

&= gt; The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and in= teraction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me the = main reason to work and publish here=2E

I agree with Niels= =2E Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF
community takes hum= an rights considerations more seriously=2E

Paul
_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list=
hrpc@irtf= =2Eorg
https://www=2Eirtf=2Eorg/mailman/= listinfo/hrpc
------W1S7O3ZV780SHCSU1J976CM0NYO3BG-- From nobody Fri Apr 10 01:03:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0E33A196B for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 01:03:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.067 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.067 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.168, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EVIavVFArhTR for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 01:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRA01-PR2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr120127.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.12.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C62093A1969 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 01:03:04 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=evR7pK0hKj/Dtvpeu8PxhxghPl1Ov/xAzBF3yeJJw0GkNOlsoEVl3mqKYbeTSgwKiJnhpDvn5FUqGsQyGvJKdAoRKAAzJ57eVPIjw2QVm/t8Y5FPtWBd6TAXMJeYGfoy5byPFhDf6/Ci/GSISE+65KF9fhuizqEbh/hf5ROei3JmIH3Iqq6U464RFZap0u1RXqlW4JFsvrGnRna7+KcDNhVBl/InynEBVC8FA4JeQu43dfD142wD3qKsHDh3aEtx2lctUnAf3pvqt198UijZieEwMHp3qYa9Aa3xALQzUcJ8E0LFAoQ4TFYfcGc6aJ9fHiVY1bU4Kjp2QFuD4+GqVw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=KtPfIA/mPQREGs3VSHzUTxxFxQo/REqGWplre7pp7cQ=; b=LGLHIVcE1wpzt1IBU92i5QpiyMwkHo9Nr5QmgUu4oRiv5hNTvNHyQJaVLkecxrFt7hwzAUagCNtM6YHiqPQEcdTi8VveGyoOT6R8g0qb3CQVH70yuaen57BVFKGRKZ7Nkm9i8C1MboIKKcI5opEaX6W+M0z8X3D2KzK8FZ/YXzmJW2NBvNV6TmwXtZhJ4RFK3L5OCqmfrmyBg4hCCIk9PwICj4cQys6ssKf21j32T6xkDJodFhoOiVyiAJAfQSIOybEDoQEaTPBSJyWNCEr/NQEdtcJ9yUeEk9df0JrY3cLJpIyj2LoeojPDk9ftW4zNEtXqTXUPAe4WWNMZHINn5g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=nokia.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=nokia.com; dkim=pass header.d=nokia.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=KtPfIA/mPQREGs3VSHzUTxxFxQo/REqGWplre7pp7cQ=; b=u80VstE5xBNOjbOgxmg4SYBGO9h20pulgUejX7D0DOXBbJL5p7T9EMRRgu+iNk4vMxfFgzHBgBxELZo+g8DP4J/xjqonwMf3uJiPu8AKpOq4t3XaSXIybITZ6oGXcsfAVD2GD54DnNwvIZ0LG1HhvwB2xdo82rk/07dfXHhyQ94= Received: from PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.177.208.146) by PR1PR07MB4907.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.177.212.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2900.15; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 08:03:01 +0000 Received: from PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c61:7804:6733:8e5e]) by PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c61:7804:6733:8e5e%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2900.012; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 08:03:01 +0000 From: "Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" To: Niels ten Oever , farzaneh badii CC: Paul Wouters , "hrpc@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication Thread-Index: AQHWDVVSbexx2oRbZUiFt3EJLdnkyahu840AgAAIEGCAAG7XAIABxJYAgAALxYCAAAoKgIAAuLZg Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 08:03:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=laurent.ciavaglia@nokia.com; x-originating-ip: [176.130.37.253] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4b7e7264-150c-4b55-b9f0-08d7dd2596e2 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: PR1PR07MB4907: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 0369E8196C x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(39860400002)(366004)(346002)(136003)(376002)(396003)(33656002)(9326002)(7696005)(71200400001)(66574012)(8936002)(81156014)(8676002)(9686003)(478600001)(966005)(26005)(64756008)(54906003)(66476007)(110136005)(2906002)(52536014)(66556008)(86362001)(53546011)(66946007)(5660300002)(66446008)(76116006)(4326008)(316002)(6506007)(186003)(55016002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nokia.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: anfer0g3xxIuHYd4hfZQOhi7AzsYBAUzkgCmI+0YmClyTWcj04Er1fj1GERObeT/7UUz3xrlFnHsUp/BsWe7mt0bxtYXZZM3dBqRQqsr/+F34U/2sg1VXS1fnDZtC+z1Wk30nkEf5G0d3J2+qSKNCg== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_PR1PR07MB489191B151F021DB97155504F3DE0PR1PR07MB4891eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4b7e7264-150c-4b55-b9f0-08d7dd2596e2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Apr 2020 08:03:01.0300 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 7MS7E1dVjzxdc/xSyVyytcHJNnvYlNAPmYNZ30PD/KfG8j5Z9mg1m1iNPTF7V1DnYpL8GPc0uaH/rPNnAtquD3dpuWx8OnskQSEenaDLNUA= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PR1PR07MB4907 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 08:03:07 -0000 --_000_PR1PR07MB489191B151F021DB97155504F3DE0PR1PR07MB4891eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8sDQoNClB1Ymxpc2hpbmcgUkcgb3V0Y29tZSBhcyBhIFJGQyBpcyB1bmRvdWJ0ZWRseSBv ZiBncmVhdCB2YWx1ZSDigJMgYW5kIHdlIHNob3VsZCBiZSBhbmQgbWFrZSBjbGVhciB0aGF0IGRp ZmZlcmVudCBSRkMgInR5cGVzIiBleGlzdHMuDQpBbiAoaW5mb3JtYXRpb25hbCBvciBleHBlcmlt ZW50YWwpIFJGQyBmcm9tIHRoZSBJUlRGIFN0cmVhbSwgd2l0aCBhbGwgdGhlIGdvb2QgdmFsdWUg aXQgY2FuIGhhdmUgaW4gaXQsIGlzIHF1aXRlIGRpZmZlcmVudCBmcm9tIGEgKFN0YW5kYXJkIFRy YWNrcykgUkZDIGZyb20gdGhlIElFVEYgU3RyZWFtLg0KQW4gaXNzdWUgaXMgdGhhdCB0aGlzIGRp c3RpbmN0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCBhbHdheXMga25vd24sIG9yIGV4cGxpY2l0LCBvciBvYnZpb3VzIGZv ciBub24tZXhwZXJ0Lg0KDQpJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBJUlRGIGlzIHF1aXRlIGNsZWFyIGFib3V0IHRo ZSBSRkNzIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCBpbiB0aGUgSVJURiBzdHJlYW0gYXJlOiAoZXh0cmFjdCBmcm9tIElS VEYgUkZDIGhlYWRlcikNCiAgICJUaGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGlzIGEgcHJvZHVjdCBvZiB0aGUgSW50 ZXJuZXQgUmVzZWFyY2ggVGFzayBGb3JjZQ0KICAgKElSVEYpLiAgVGhlIElSVEYgcHVibGlzaGVz IHRoZSByZXN1bHRzIG9mIEludGVybmV0LXJlbGF0ZWQgcmVzZWFyY2gNCiAgIGFuZCBkZXZlbG9w bWVudCBhY3Rpdml0aWVzLiAgVGhlc2UgcmVzdWx0cyBtaWdodCBub3QgYmUgc3VpdGFibGUgZm9y DQogICBkZXBsb3ltZW50LiAgVGhpcyBSRkMgcmVwcmVzZW50cyB0aGUgY29uc2Vuc3VzIG9mIHRo ZSBOZXR3b3JrDQogICBNYW5hZ2VtZW50IFJlc2VhcmNoIEdyb3VwIG9mIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldCBS ZXNlYXJjaCBUYXNrIEZvcmNlIChJUlRGKS4NCiAgIERvY3VtZW50cyBhcHByb3ZlZCBmb3IgcHVi bGljYXRpb24gYnkgdGhlIElSU0cgYXJlIG5vdCBhIGNhbmRpZGF0ZQ0KICAgZm9yIGFueSBsZXZl bCBvZiBJbnRlcm5ldCBTdGFuZGFyZDsgc2VlIFNlY3Rpb24gMiBvZiBSRkMgNTc0MTxodHRwczov L3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvcmZjNTc0MSNzZWN0aW9uLTI+LiINCg0KVGhlcmVmb3JlLCBJ IHRoaW5rIHdlIHNob3VsZCBkaXN0aW5ndWlzaCB0aGUgZ29hbCBhbmQgcHVycG9zZSBvZiBwdWJs aXNoaW5nIFJHIHJlc3VsdHMgYXMgYW4gSVJURiBSRkMsIGZyb20gb3RoZXIgY2FzZXMgKGkuZS4g SUVURiBzdHJlYW0pLiBUaGUgdHdvIGRvY3VtZW50cyBhcmUgY2FsbGVkIFJGQ3MgYnV0IHRoZXkg ZG9uJ3QgYmVhciB0aGUgc2FtZSBzaWduaWZpY2FuY2UgYW5kIGRvbid0IHNlcnZlIHRoZSBzYW1l IHB1cnBvc2UuDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywgTGF1cmVudC4NCg0KDQpGcm9tOiBocnBjIDxocnBj LWJvdW5jZXNAaXJ0Zi5vcmc+IE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBOaWVscyB0ZW4gT2V2ZXINClNlbnQ6IFRo dXJzZGF5LCBBcHJpbCA5LCAyMDIwIDIyOjQ1DQpUbzogZmFyemFuZWggYmFkaWkgPGZhcnphbmVo LmJhZGlpQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4NCkNjOiBQYXVsIFdvdXRlcnMgPHBhdWxAbm9oYXRzLmNhPjsgaHJw Y0BpcnRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtocnBjXSBQb3NzaWJsZSBvcHRpb25zIGZvciBhIEhS UEMgcmVzZWFyY2ggcHVibGljYXRpb24NCg0KSSBhY3R1YWxseSBob3BlIG1hbnkgcGVvcGxlIHdp bGwgd3JpdGUgSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnRzIGFib3V0IHRoaXMgdG9waWMuIEkgaGF2ZSBubyBwcm9i bGVtIHdpdGggaXQgaWYgdGhlc2UgSS1EcyBhbmQgUkZDcyB3b3VsZCBjcml0aWNpemUgZWFjaCBv dGhlciBhbmQgYnVpbGQgb24gZWFjaCBvdGhlci4gSSdkIHZlcnkgbXVjaCB3ZWxjb21lIGFuIElE IGZyb20gRHIuIEJhZGlpIG9uIHRoZSB0b3BpYy4gQWNhZGVtaWNzIGhhdmUgc3VmZmljaWVudCB2 ZW51ZXMgdG8gdGFsayBhbW9uZyBlYWNoIG90aGVyIG9uIHRoaXMgdG9waWMsIHN1Y2ggYXMgR2ln YW5ldC4NCk9uIEFwciA5LCAyMDIwLCBhdCAyMjowOSwgZmFyemFuZWggYmFkaWkgPGZhcnphbmVo LmJhZGlpQGdtYWlsLmNvbTxtYWlsdG86ZmFyemFuZWguYmFkaWlAZ21haWwuY29tPj4gd3JvdGU6 DQpTdXJlIGJ1dCBub3QgZXZlcnkgZW50aHVzaWFzdGljIGFjYWRlbWljIHBpZWNlIHF1YWxpZmll cyBhcyBhbiBSRkMuIEhhbGYgYmFrZWQgY29uY2VwdHVhbCBpZGVhcyB0aGF0IG5lZWQgeWVhcnMg b2YgZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgYW5kIHRoZWlyIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIGlzIGRvdWJ0ZnVsIHRvbyBh bmQgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gY29uc2Vuc3VzIGFyb3VuZCB0aGVtIHNob3VsZCBub3QganVzdCBiZSBw dXNoZWQgdGhyb3VnaCB1bmxlc3MgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGZ1bmRhbWVudGFsIGFuZCBjbGVhciBzdWJz dGFudGl2ZSBjaGFuZ2VzIGluIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudC4gVGhlIGV2b2x1dGlvbiBvZiBjb25jZXB0 cyBtdXN0IGJlIGNsZWFyIHdpdGggc3Ryb25nIGVtcGlyaWNhbCBhbmFseXNpcy4gT3IgaXQgaGFz IHRvIGJlIG5hcnJvd2VyIHdpdGhvdXQgZ3JhbmQgdGhlb3JldGljYWwgYW5kIHBoaWxvc29waGlj YWwgY2xhaW1zLiAgT3RoZXJ3aXNlIHB1Ymxpc2hpbmcgYSBwaWVjZSBhcyBSRkMgaXMgbWVyZWx5 IGdpdmluZyBsaXAgc2VydmljZSB0byBodW1hbiByaWdodHMuIEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyBob3cgdGhp cyBwcm9jZXNzIGlzIGdvaW5nIHRvIHBsYXkgb3V0IGJ1dCBtYXliZSBhY2FkZW1pY3MgY2FuIGxh eW91dCB0aGVpciAgY29uY2VwdHMgYW5kIGlkZWFzIGluIHRoZSBub24tUkZDIHRyYWNrIGFuZCAg UkcgY2FuIGNvbnNpZGVyIHdoYXQgbmVlZHMgdG8gYmUgdHJhbnNmZXJyZWQgdG8gdGhlIFJGQyB0 cmFjay4gSSB0aGluayBhY2FkZW1pY3MgYXJlIGluIG5lZWQgb2YgZ29vZCBmZWVkYmFjayB0byBi dWlsZCBvbiB3aGF0IHRoZXkgaGF2ZSwgYW5kIHRoZSBub24tUkZDIHRyYWNrIHNob3VsZCBpbmNs dWRlIHdheXMgdG8gcmVjZWl2ZSBmZWVkYmFjayBmcm9tIHRoZSBJRVRGIGNvbW11bml0eSBzbyB0 aGF0IHRoZXkgY2FuIGltcHJvdmUgdGhlaXIgcGllY2VzIGFuZCBiZSBwdWJsaXNoZWQgd2l0aG91 dCB0aGUgcnVzaCB0byBjcmVhdGluZyBhbiBSRkMgb3V0IG9mIGV2ZXJ5IG9waW5pb24gYW5kIG1h bmlmZXN0by4NCg0KRmFyemFuZWgNCg0KDQpPbiBUaHUsIEFwciA5LCAyMDIwIGF0IDM6MzYgUE0g UGF1bCBXb3V0ZXJzIDwgcGF1bEBub2hhdHMuY2E8bWFpbHRvOnBhdWxAbm9oYXRzLmNhPj4gd3Jv dGU6DQpPbiBXZWQsIDggQXByIDIwMjAsIE5pZWxzIHRlbiBPZXZlciB3cm90ZToNCg0KPiBUaGUg cHVibGljYXRpb24gaW4gdGhlIFJGQy1zZXJpZXMgYW5kIHRoZSBjb25uZWN0ZWQgZXhwb3N1cmUg dG8sIGFuZCBpbnRlcmFjdGlvbiB3aXRoLCB0aGUgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGNvbW11bml0eSBpbiB0aGUg SVJURiBhbmQgSUVURiBpcyBmb3IgbWUgdGhlIG1haW4gcmVhc29uIHRvIHdvcmsgYW5kIHB1Ymxp c2ggaGVyZS4NCg0KSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIE5pZWxzLiBQdWJsaXNoaW5nIGFuIFJGQyBpcyBuZWVk ZWQgc28gdGhhdCB0aGUgSUVURg0KY29tbXVuaXR5IHRha2VzIGh1bWFuIHJpZ2h0cyBjb25zaWRl cmF0aW9ucyBtb3JlIHNlcmlvdXNseS4NCg0KUGF1bA0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KaHJwYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCmhycGNAaXJ0Zi5v cmc8bWFpbHRvOmhycGNAaXJ0Zi5vcmc+DQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pcnRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2hycGMNCg== --_000_PR1PR07MB489191B151F021DB97155504F3DE0PR1PR07MB4891eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6dj0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTp2bWwiIHhtbG5zOm89InVy bjpzY2hlbWFzLW1pY3Jvc29mdC1jb206b2ZmaWNlOm9mZmljZSIgeG1sbnM6dz0idXJuOnNjaGVt YXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6d29yZCIgeG1sbnM6bT0iaHR0cDovL3NjaGVtYXMubWlj cm9zb2Z0LmNvbS9vZmZpY2UvMjAwNC8xMi9vbW1sIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv VFIvUkVDLWh0bWw0MCI+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIg Y29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxtZXRhIG5hbWU9IkdlbmVyYXRv ciIgY29udGVudD0iTWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgMTUgKGZpbHRlcmVkIG1lZGl1bSkiPg0KPHN0eWxl PjwhLS0NCi8qIEZvbnQgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6 IkNhbWJyaWEgTWF0aCI7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6MiA0IDUgMyA1IDQgNiAzIDIgNDt9DQpAZm9udC1m YWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OkNhbGlicmk7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6MiAxNSA1IDIgMiAyIDQgMyAy IDQ7fQ0KQGZvbnQtZmFjZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseTpWZXJkYW5hOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjIgMTEg NiA0IDMgNSA0IDQgMiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q29uc29sYXM7DQoJ cGFub3NlLTE6MiAxMSA2IDkgMiAyIDQgMyAyIDQ7fQ0KLyogU3R5bGUgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8N CnAuTXNvTm9ybWFsLCBsaS5Nc29Ob3JtYWwsIGRpdi5Nc29Ob3JtYWwNCgl7bWFyZ2luOjBjbTsN CgltYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOi4wMDAxcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1zaXplOjEwLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWls eToiQ291cmllciBOZXciLHNlcmlmO30NCmE6bGluaywgc3Bhbi5Nc29IeXBlcmxpbmsNCgl7bXNv LXN0eWxlLXByaW9yaXR5Ojk5Ow0KCWNvbG9yOmJsdWU7DQoJdGV4dC1kZWNvcmF0aW9uOnVuZGVy bGluZTt9DQphOnZpc2l0ZWQsIHNwYW4uTXNvSHlwZXJsaW5rRm9sbG93ZWQNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxl LXByaW9yaXR5Ojk5Ow0KCWNvbG9yOnB1cnBsZTsNCgl0ZXh0LWRlY29yYXRpb246dW5kZXJsaW5l O30NCnByZQ0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6OTk7DQoJbXNvLXN0eWxlLWxpbms6IkhUTUwg UHJlZm9ybWF0dGVkIENoYXIiOw0KCW1hcmdpbjowY207DQoJbWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTouMDAwMXB0 Ow0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q29uc29sYXM7fQ0KcC5tc29ub3Jt YWwwLCBsaS5tc29ub3JtYWwwLCBkaXYubXNvbm9ybWFsMA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtbmFtZTptc29u b3JtYWw7DQoJbXNvLW1hcmdpbi10b3AtYWx0OmF1dG87DQoJbWFyZ2luLXJpZ2h0OjBjbTsNCglt c28tbWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbS1hbHQ6YXV0bzsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDowY207DQoJZm9udC1zaXpl OjEwLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ291cmllciBOZXciLHNlcmlmO30NCnNwYW4uRW1haWxT dHlsZTE4DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOnBlcnNvbmFsLXJlcGx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJD b3VyaWVyIE5ldyIsc2VyaWY7DQoJZm9udC12YXJpYW50Om5vcm1hbCAhaW1wb3J0YW50Ow0KCWNv bG9yOiMxRjQ5N0Q7DQoJdGV4dC10cmFuc2Zvcm06bm9uZTsNCglmb250LXdlaWdodDpub3JtYWw7 DQoJZm9udC1zdHlsZTpub3JtYWw7DQoJdGV4dC1kZWNvcmF0aW9uOm5vbmUgbm9uZTsNCgl2ZXJ0 aWNhbC1hbGlnbjpiYXNlbGluZTt9DQpzcGFuLkhUTUxQcmVmb3JtYXR0ZWRDaGFyDQoJe21zby1z dHlsZS1uYW1lOiJIVE1MIFByZWZvcm1hdHRlZCBDaGFyIjsNCgltc28tc3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6 OTk7DQoJbXNvLXN0eWxlLWxpbms6IkhUTUwgUHJlZm9ybWF0dGVkIjsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseTpD b25zb2xhczt9DQouTXNvQ2hwRGVmYXVsdA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpleHBvcnQtb25seTsN Cglmb250LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0O30NCkBwYWdlIFdvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtzaXplOjYxMi4wcHQg NzkyLjBwdDsNCgltYXJnaW46NzAuODVwdCA3MC44NXB0IDcwLjg1cHQgNzAuODVwdDt9DQpkaXYu V29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3BhZ2U6V29yZFNlY3Rpb24xO30NCi0tPjwvc3R5bGU+PCEtLVtpZiBn dGUgbXNvIDldPjx4bWw+DQo8bzpzaGFwZWRlZmF1bHRzIHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0IiBzcGlkbWF4PSIx MDI2IiAvPg0KPC94bWw+PCFbZW5kaWZdLS0+PCEtLVtpZiBndGUgbXNvIDldPjx4bWw+DQo8bzpz aGFwZWxheW91dCB2OmV4dD0iZWRpdCI+DQo8bzppZG1hcCB2OmV4dD0iZWRpdCIgZGF0YT0iMSIg Lz4NCjwvbzpzaGFwZWxheW91dD48L3htbD48IVtlbmRpZl0tLT4NCjwvaGVhZD4NCjxib2R5IGxh bmc9IkVOLVVTIiBsaW5rPSJibHVlIiB2bGluaz0icHVycGxlIj4NCjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9IldvcmRT ZWN0aW9uMSI+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iY29sb3I6IzFGNDk3 RCI+SGVsbG8sPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNw YW4gc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxw IGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj5QdWJsaXNoaW5n IFJHIG91dGNvbWUgYXMgYSBSRkMgaXMgdW5kb3VidGVkbHkgb2YgZ3JlYXQgdmFsdWUg4oCTIGFu ZCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgYmUgYW5kIG1ha2UgY2xlYXIgdGhhdCBkaWZmZXJlbnQgUkZDICZxdW90O3R5 cGVzJnF1b3Q7IGV4aXN0cy4NCjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29O b3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj5BbiAoaW5mb3JtYXRpb25hbCBvciBl eHBlcmltZW50YWwpIFJGQyBmcm9tIHRoZSBJUlRGIFN0cmVhbSwgd2l0aCBhbGwgdGhlIGdvb2Qg dmFsdWUgaXQgY2FuIGhhdmUgaW4gaXQsIGlzIHF1aXRlIGRpZmZlcmVudCBmcm9tIGEgKFN0YW5k YXJkIFRyYWNrcykgUkZDIGZyb20gdGhlIElFVEYgU3RyZWFtLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwv cD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj5BbiBp c3N1ZSBpcyB0aGF0IHRoaXMgZGlzdGluY3Rpb24gaXMgbm90IGFsd2F5cyBrbm93biwgb3IgZXhw bGljaXQsIG9yIG9idmlvdXMgZm9yIG5vbi1leHBlcnQuPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0K PHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QiPjxvOnA+Jm5i c3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJj b2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj5JIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBJUlRGIGlzIHF1aXRlIGNsZWFyIGFib3V0IHRoZSBS RkNzIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCBpbiB0aGUgSVJURiBzdHJlYW0gYXJlOiAoZXh0cmFjdCBmcm9tIElSVEYg UkZDIGhlYWRlcikNCjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwi PjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmcXVvdDtUaGlz IGRvY3VtZW50IGlzIGEgcHJvZHVjdCBvZiB0aGUgSW50ZXJuZXQgUmVzZWFyY2ggVGFzayBGb3Jj ZTxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxl PSJjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsgKElSVEYpLiZuYnNwOyBUaGUgSVJURiBwdWJs aXNoZXMgdGhlIHJlc3VsdHMgb2YgSW50ZXJuZXQtcmVsYXRlZCByZXNlYXJjaDxvOnA+PC9vOnA+ PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjojMUY0 OTdEIj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsgYW5kIGRldmVsb3BtZW50IGFjdGl2aXRpZXMuJm5ic3A7IFRoZXNl IHJlc3VsdHMgbWlnaHQgbm90IGJlIHN1aXRhYmxlIGZvcjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4N CjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj4mbmJzcDsm bmJzcDsgZGVwbG95bWVudC4mbmJzcDsgVGhpcyBSRkMgcmVwcmVzZW50cyB0aGUgY29uc2Vuc3Vz IG9mIHRoZSBOZXR3b3JrPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1h bCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QiPiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyBNYW5hZ2VtZW50IFJl c2VhcmNoIEdyb3VwIG9mIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldCBSZXNlYXJjaCBUYXNrIEZvcmNlIChJUlRGKS48 bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0i Y29sb3I6IzFGNDk3RCI+Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7IERvY3VtZW50cyBhcHByb3ZlZCBmb3IgcHVibGlj YXRpb24gYnkgdGhlIElSU0cgYXJlIG5vdCBhIGNhbmRpZGF0ZTxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwv cD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj4mbmJz cDsmbmJzcDsgZm9yIGFueSBsZXZlbCBvZiBJbnRlcm5ldCBTdGFuZGFyZDsgc2VlDQo8YSBocmVm PSJodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvcmZjNTc0MSNzZWN0aW9uLTIiPlNlY3Rpb24m bmJzcDsyIG9mIFJGQyA1NzQxPC9hPi4mcXVvdDs8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBj bGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iY29sb3I6IzFGNDk3RCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8 L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9y OiMxRjQ5N0QiPlRoZXJlZm9yZSwgSSB0aGluayB3ZSBzaG91bGQgZGlzdGluZ3Vpc2ggdGhlIGdv YWwgYW5kIHB1cnBvc2Ugb2YgcHVibGlzaGluZyBSRyByZXN1bHRzIGFzIGFuIElSVEYgUkZDLCBm cm9tIG90aGVyIGNhc2VzIChpLmUuIElFVEYgc3RyZWFtKS4gVGhlIHR3byBkb2N1bWVudHMgYXJl IGNhbGxlZCBSRkNzIGJ1dCB0aGV5IGRvbid0IGJlYXIgdGhlIHNhbWUgc2lnbmlmaWNhbmNlDQog YW5kIGRvbid0IHNlcnZlIHRoZSBzYW1lIHB1cnBvc2UuPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0K PHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QiPjxvOnA+Jm5i c3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJj b2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj5CZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsIExhdXJlbnQuPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9w Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImNvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QiPjxvOnA+ Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxl PSJjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8ZGl2IHN0eWxl PSJib3JkZXI6bm9uZTtib3JkZXItbGVmdDpzb2xpZCBibHVlIDEuNXB0O3BhZGRpbmc6MGNtIDBj bSAwY20gNC4wcHQiPg0KPGRpdj4NCjxkaXYgc3R5bGU9ImJvcmRlcjpub25lO2JvcmRlci10b3A6 c29saWQgI0UxRTFFMSAxLjBwdDtwYWRkaW5nOjMuMHB0IDBjbSAwY20gMGNtIj4NCjxwIGNsYXNz PSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5 OiZxdW90O0NhbGlicmkmcXVvdDssc2Fucy1zZXJpZiI+RnJvbTo8L3NwYW4+PC9iPjxzcGFuIHN0 eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0NhbGlicmkmcXVvdDssc2Fu cy1zZXJpZiI+IGhycGMgJmx0O2hycGMtYm91bmNlc0BpcnRmLm9yZyZndDsNCjxiPk9uIEJlaGFs ZiBPZiA8L2I+TmllbHMgdGVuIE9ldmVyPGJyPg0KPGI+U2VudDo8L2I+IFRodXJzZGF5LCBBcHJp bCA5LCAyMDIwIDIyOjQ1PGJyPg0KPGI+VG86PC9iPiBmYXJ6YW5laCBiYWRpaSAmbHQ7ZmFyemFu ZWguYmFkaWlAZ21haWwuY29tJmd0Ozxicj4NCjxiPkNjOjwvYj4gUGF1bCBXb3V0ZXJzICZsdDtw YXVsQG5vaGF0cy5jYSZndDs7IGhycGNAaXJ0Zi5vcmc8YnI+DQo8Yj5TdWJqZWN0OjwvYj4gUmU6 IFtocnBjXSBQb3NzaWJsZSBvcHRpb25zIGZvciBhIEhSUEMgcmVzZWFyY2ggcHVibGljYXRpb248 bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1h bCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+SSBh Y3R1YWxseSBob3BlIG1hbnkgcGVvcGxlIHdpbGwgd3JpdGUgSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnRzIGFib3V0 IHRoaXMgdG9waWMuIEkgaGF2ZSBubyBwcm9ibGVtIHdpdGggaXQgaWYgdGhlc2UgSS1EcyBhbmQg UkZDcyB3b3VsZCBjcml0aWNpemUgZWFjaCBvdGhlciBhbmQgYnVpbGQgb24gZWFjaCBvdGhlci4g SSdkIHZlcnkgbXVjaCB3ZWxjb21lIGFuIElEIGZyb20gRHIuIEJhZGlpIG9uIHRoZSB0b3BpYy4g QWNhZGVtaWNzDQogaGF2ZSBzdWZmaWNpZW50IHZlbnVlcyB0byB0YWxrIGFtb25nIGVhY2ggb3Ro ZXIgb24gdGhpcyB0b3BpYywgc3VjaCBhcyBHaWdhbmV0LjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+ DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+T24gQXByIDksIDIwMjAsIGF0IDIyOjA5LCBm YXJ6YW5laCBiYWRpaSAmbHQ7PGEgaHJlZj0ibWFpbHRvOmZhcnphbmVoLmJhZGlpQGdtYWlsLmNv bSIgdGFyZ2V0PSJfYmxhbmsiPmZhcnphbmVoLmJhZGlpQGdtYWlsLmNvbTwvYT4mZ3Q7IHdyb3Rl OjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPGJsb2NrcXVvdGUgc3R5bGU9ImJvcmRlcjpub25lO2JvcmRlci1s ZWZ0OnNvbGlkICNDQ0NDQ0MgMS4wcHQ7cGFkZGluZzowY20gMGNtIDBjbSA2LjBwdDttYXJnaW4t bGVmdDo0LjhwdDttYXJnaW4tcmlnaHQ6MGNtIj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1z b05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O1ZlcmRhbmEmcXVvdDssc2Fu cy1zZXJpZiI+U3VyZSBidXQgbm90IGV2ZXJ5IGVudGh1c2lhc3RpYyBhY2FkZW1pYyBwaWVjZSBx dWFsaWZpZXMgYXMgYW4gUkZDLiBIYWxmIGJha2VkIGNvbmNlcHR1YWwgaWRlYXMgdGhhdCBuZWVk IHllYXJzIG9mIGRldmVsb3BtZW50IGFuZCB0aGVpciBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBpcyBkb3VidGZ1 bCB0b28gYW5kIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIGNvbnNlbnN1cw0KIGFyb3VuZCB0aGVtIHNob3VsZCBub3Qg anVzdCBiZSBwdXNoZWQgdGhyb3VnaCB1bmxlc3MgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGZ1bmRhbWVudGFsIGFuZCBj bGVhciBzdWJzdGFudGl2ZSBjaGFuZ2VzIGluIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudC4gVGhlIGV2b2x1dGlvbiBv ZiBjb25jZXB0cyBtdXN0IGJlIGNsZWFyIHdpdGggc3Ryb25nIGVtcGlyaWNhbCZuYnNwO2FuYWx5 c2lzLiBPciBpdCBoYXMgdG8gYmUgbmFycm93ZXIgd2l0aG91dCBncmFuZCB0aGVvcmV0aWNhbCBh bmQgcGhpbG9zb3BoaWNhbA0KIGNsYWltcy4mbmJzcDsgT3RoZXJ3aXNlIHB1Ymxpc2hpbmcgYSBw aWVjZSBhcyBSRkMgaXMgbWVyZWx5IGdpdmluZyBsaXAgc2VydmljZSZuYnNwO3RvIGh1bWFuIHJp Z2h0cy4gSSBkb24ndCBrbm93IGhvdyB0aGlzIHByb2Nlc3MgaXMgZ29pbmcgdG8gcGxheSBvdXQg YnV0IG1heWJlIGFjYWRlbWljcyBjYW4gbGF5b3V0IHRoZWlyJm5ic3A7IGNvbmNlcHRzIGFuZCBp ZGVhcyBpbiB0aGUgbm9uLVJGQyB0cmFjayBhbmQmbmJzcDsgUkcgY2FuIGNvbnNpZGVyIHdoYXQg bmVlZHMgdG8gYmUNCiB0cmFuc2ZlcnJlZCZuYnNwO3RvIHRoZSBSRkMgdHJhY2suIEkgdGhpbmsg YWNhZGVtaWNzIGFyZSBpbiBuZWVkIG9mIGdvb2QgZmVlZGJhY2sgdG8gYnVpbGQgb24gd2hhdCB0 aGV5IGhhdmUsIGFuZCB0aGUgbm9uLVJGQyB0cmFjayBzaG91bGQgaW5jbHVkZSB3YXlzIHRvIHJl Y2VpdmUgZmVlZGJhY2sgZnJvbSB0aGUgSUVURiBjb21tdW5pdHkgc28gdGhhdCB0aGV5IGNhbiBp bXByb3ZlIHRoZWlyIHBpZWNlcyBhbmQgYmUgcHVibGlzaGVkIHdpdGhvdXQgdGhlDQogcnVzaCB0 byBjcmVhdGluZyBhbiBSRkMgb3V0IG9mIGV2ZXJ5IG9waW5pb24gYW5kIG1hbmlmZXN0by4mbmJz cDsmbmJzcDsgPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9 Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O1ZlcmRhbmEmcXVvdDss c2Fucy1zZXJpZiI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0K PGRpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZv bnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O1ZlcmRhbmEmcXVvdDssc2Fucy1zZXJpZiI+RmFyemFuZWggPC9zcGFu Pg0KPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxwIGNs YXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0i TXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxkaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9 Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+T24gVGh1LCBBcHIgOSwgMjAyMCBhdCAzOjM2IFBNIFBhdWwgV291dGVycyAm bHQ7IDxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzpwYXVsQG5vaGF0cy5jYSI+DQpwYXVsQG5vaGF0cy5jYTwvYT4m Z3Q7IHdyb3RlOiA8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGJsb2NrcXVvdGUgc3R5bGU9ImJv cmRlcjpub25lO2JvcmRlci1sZWZ0OnNvbGlkICNDQ0NDQ0MgMS4wcHQ7cGFkZGluZzowY20gMGNt IDBjbSA2LjBwdDttYXJnaW4tbGVmdDo0LjhwdDttYXJnaW4tcmlnaHQ6MGNtIj4NCjxwIGNsYXNz PSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPk9uIFdlZCwgOCBBcHIgMjAyMCwgTmllbHMgdGVuIE9ldmVyIHdyb3RlOiA8 YnI+DQo8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IFRoZSBwdWJsaWNhdGlvbiBpbiB0aGUgUkZDLXNlcmllcyBhbmQgdGhl IGNvbm5lY3RlZCBleHBvc3VyZSB0bywgYW5kIGludGVyYWN0aW9uIHdpdGgsIHRoZSB0ZWNobmlj YWwgY29tbXVuaXR5IGluIHRoZSBJUlRGIGFuZCBJRVRGIGlzIGZvciBtZSB0aGUgbWFpbiByZWFz b24gdG8gd29yayBhbmQgcHVibGlzaCBoZXJlLg0KPGJyPg0KPGJyPg0KSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIE5p ZWxzLiBQdWJsaXNoaW5nIGFuIFJGQyBpcyBuZWVkZWQgc28gdGhhdCB0aGUgSUVURiA8YnI+DQpj b21tdW5pdHkgdGFrZXMgaHVtYW4gcmlnaHRzIGNvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zIG1vcmUgc2VyaW91c2x5 LiA8YnI+DQo8YnI+DQpQYXVsIDxicj4NCjxicj4NCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fIDxicj4NCmhycGMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0IDxicj4NCjxhIGhy ZWY9Im1haWx0bzpocnBjQGlydGYub3JnIiB0YXJnZXQ9Il9ibGFuayI+aHJwY0BpcnRmLm9yZzwv YT4gPGJyPg0KPGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaXJ0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9o cnBjIiB0YXJnZXQ9Il9ibGFuayI+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaXJ0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9ocnBjPC9hPg0KPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYmxv Y2txdW90ZT4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_PR1PR07MB489191B151F021DB97155504F3DE0PR1PR07MB4891eurp_-- From nobody Fri Apr 10 02:22:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C2E3A1AA6 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 02:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uYd3lNuIFC79 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 02:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F174A3A1AAC for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 02:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7A7DBE2C; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:22:04 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h1myXgwh7Ngg; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:22:02 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 75976BDCF; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:22:02 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1586510522; bh=P1rIbdYkTa0nXpUtzU7oqZsi9VjaKtY5q/DF+GNDRbA=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=mwFYgzO++A/1m1kXiBvOFKx8aVrDpNSUG1ECYw9f7rhtiXX0r3WgPotb0ZUhG6QOU fgL9r5c6tq9YfnbHQRSu0QmmmwmoAWJWUwhuN7c2bCyBRkAuIsavdpCT3ssu6zMXsS hxDBASNruj0TudgX6ioA4x2s3fN0HfIsL50XnVAk= To: "Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" , Niels ten Oever , farzaneh badii Cc: Paul Wouters , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <5438ab3d-1303-1cb4-fa78-b9a097d87c24@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:22:01 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Q5B5UpOQ1RBQ7LOBnhY9yVUYBNdxs088b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 09:22:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Q5B5UpOQ1RBQ7LOBnhY9yVUYBNdxs088b Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nFF0oEWDGuyYm36diZHZLKAZc8lx6pES2"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" , Niels ten Oever , farzaneh badii Cc: Paul Wouters , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <5438ab3d-1303-1cb4-fa78-b9a097d87c24@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: --nFF0oEWDGuyYm36diZHZLKAZc8lx6pES2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7C6C6B561607ED1E81FBB03A" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7C6C6B561607ED1E81FBB03A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I think the text below could be an example that might mislead someone who doesn't delve into all of our bureaucratic details:-) On 10/04/2020 09:03, Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote: > I think the IRTF is quite clear about the RFCs published in the IRTF st= ream are: (extract from IRTF RFC header) > "This document is a product of the Internet Research Task Force > (IRTF). The IRTF publishes the results of Internet-related research= > and development activities. These results might not be suitable for= > deployment. This RFC represents the consensus of the Network > Management Research Group of the Internet Research Task Force (IRTF)= =2E The last sentence above is not mandatory. Another option, from [1], is: "the views in this document were considered controversial by the FOOBAR RG but the RG reached a consensus that the document should still be published". I think hrpc in particular could benefit from using that option. (But if the chairs don't think the RG want to do that, that's their call, and that's fine.) Cheers, S. [1] https://trac.ietf.org/trac/irtf/wiki/IRTF-RFCs > Documents approved for publication by the IRSG are not a candidate > for any level of Internet Standard; see Section 2 of RFC 5741." --------------7C6C6B561607ED1E81FBB03A Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB tCFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT6JAj0EEwEIACcFAlo9 UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qG CxAApYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKk rRl8beJ7j1CWXAz9+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBr sjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPLF+X+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZ sdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4g1UQAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpG nvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advrek3UP71CKxpgtPmk d3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBG FEZYJGuaL4NwtBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wV N3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m6vtZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8v ovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7+8ACcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozv tEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQLuJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9 UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8rpKo9Ok Cz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqm uKhYrqJsCcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMT AAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVaW/rKSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQ IAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TGgMWrkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5 DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3urqR1YkCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4X CgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/0A9J9nrnBMq Zpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5h cJBDEN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPp MyEs04zvsbsl4vrp2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouB ur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGAxvKdcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQ yoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaKxlftjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V 4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjgUkyo1s4vjUOY8Dy I+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIOaHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg 2YVf0izSpyyzJeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc /MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZuLEFraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu 4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5iQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8 pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer3UMTVQg10vpa7pmqOGh jIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCPjt5uAxm bBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6 +uWyK171RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh 5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMRLpgRKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6K LChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuovwzatM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv 8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0zG36VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ5 6jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQeahr2ez3DRB g3qsHEjBV7QyU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxs QGNzLnRjZC5pZT6JAkAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEC HgECF4AFAlo+o3cCGQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeO M3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKow5oDSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP 2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3hRcsRvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s /69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmCY98iD+EeiIMAWBj Mw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jdh2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSl AblGjwZe4EIkCXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNg vDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZDIJpdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/r wWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4tvya7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o 4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4ul3qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKA xo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIcG9givQd 8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8SJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6 NXEGtw/r1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYc Jf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZJaf3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbY tWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u14Q07+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1 WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGfqtuSw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7E DuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/CgHw26293tlv e2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkK CwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiP GYnh/CXxIF8eLrfbe5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dT MrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWFetuO01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9 gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8v39+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZX ripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr1oD3RxYNhuWgyGF L64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Prm2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCb hrC3+yobyy/AUOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10M SU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxOjaoP0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXt GKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYzleLZ7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA 5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC2X4pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jokCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJb tySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/ l//34YT0auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX 4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sbedDSgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo 7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF31qG/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZj CROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcVYW6R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DR Gd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg4ImVOLGqsUg Vm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGx mqyHeLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88 zllsqhZAFQjNxqnkSzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2 EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJEscYyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezI z60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n2HwxyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqr Z0tIiQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4FeIYjlIXGghFWzsB 4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8EAuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwl vpNwiiBr42AYR751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGk bPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXHX5vaT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joB p823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1qCswY/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE 5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tqyA43niUMy2n6q690of3 berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7mEer0rCL 3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP7QuU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJy ZWxsIDxzdGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1R WgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jsc EADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZi0BigofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI 6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhni9gOJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7h qVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTysIgpMw0bA1y BU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1 n66vxxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIq hCljJ9x40Fkn/3r2BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw 2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjMYtUN1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nY m2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr5iWXO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T 5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/zekZyXRdS/oDKrB LUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78ba0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdIkBHAQQAQgABgUCWj1S oAAKCRAvPIc2gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06 TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6XE6i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs 0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I116u/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWk mfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/JG9aSSYvk3lznNiH41x9 M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IWOMqN2wo DjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBiQIzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcK BFyEz0YOK3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0 H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4vYlzkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQO JSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLxnNbKDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrh B+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+5HNHltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgB KVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq4hnl5+VC/48 ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPw nZbgJO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2Mvool sW08FiZh3Ej4dnJjj25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJ lMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8WLIaGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws 4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilcdPCYk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0Kd AlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTXo4+Ira2JUErL2cY zQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YuJAZwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsROTyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04 fZ2Ry4nF9hZM0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4N kC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5P3fWYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+ FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOospcL2lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8 AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbketPGRmWvx5xUvb2ALFB BdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3zRqk3mt tto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+Qg evYE020qpKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7 vxflUEDuuQINBFo9UDIBEAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuB HmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x/nLPCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD 8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHEhOVfBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5M sK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1DVI9DYo2D/zE 4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7Pb TuW/eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3 vDUew1h5QU1yDaWT3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcm oazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q61dfmr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r +oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8MAv2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22f Q0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOAHZR5iCunYghx8b7 Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQoqj1 gwARAQABiQIlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF 6TeR83xD6MasqXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfd n3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxiRkMdNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx25 2HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB++/KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjN JIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lXxMDrvKnXMkjseQ2oKjw rIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrfZtAZAGs okRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqY o3pcN2OE0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQk d0YjcqlB1E0svODHTzcSoRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmU yXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7IKP3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhk vMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeWIyss6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3 YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3DYzQY -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------7C6C6B561607ED1E81FBB03A-- --nFF0oEWDGuyYm36diZHZLKAZc8lx6pES2-- --Q5B5UpOQ1RBQ7LOBnhY9yVUYBNdxs088b Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl6QOrkACgkQWrL68XsX K+rFRxAAwDCogldbpB6rxf4Rf/KDLBCmXcdn+/nxGZTosRvRh+wrtH2lbCKS/yJy 59Pu98cLixamlrbTxDWHoq5o8tYHtoys0Nzhi1mhJbx6OPKBe6SSDUCiN7EwPPdK l7vSWkeodGUIWfVZfEyn9lCNDzYPFFZt4KsaKq7n5sjun8AtdeaJ092YZkky49M/ NHxUegaCDFPD8eF+xcwkX8OXO9lQZCVtfOidlOQkkiRU12MW0ygcMo48Mj6hiAt2 TwsebsuuhWTfDj7VhcIn1eAMeosQxBNImO5hc55CQRz7gafPRxzmIrYxn+NAXZ4P gys9dYtoGtS8g2lSzSDxuf3srkyfb3FnwBlRHxM7uUvReSMAsvDjYQtkWRXbTv9b ZIinJ20Q2ADvEBDflQCR0iE5tzRkcEs2AIxD0dssDfjyIbas3Vcb7hb24G1A5iNk CPSB6TD9xEM5az/ZLIx+OzC607j756dpQmyDTA7uVmKX4ghYXl2JeDbK2NsDiE6L 4UZW5bzj9bQhdb9MiPkX4E9Mt7ZA/Lw3E7mxI+gzGAr/DMYzbCzGlrSjk1UpI/N9 5Q1ZUQrdrj9eJL+WcMKyJjtZZTDbrmj8dLDzIgxCCP2JDQpGVJXnXWyy/sLFB03K PsMEd7FI6DYDTFM1Jv47GF9Ly15aByxGUS/199PxQuO9uNLI7iU= =1ox6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Q5B5UpOQ1RBQ7LOBnhY9yVUYBNdxs088b-- From nobody Fri Apr 10 06:46:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8CA23A0A7E for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:46:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VSzbNyhuF4nG for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x332.google.com (mail-wm1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 042643A003D for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id x25so2566673wmc.0 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:45:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zQAY1zGlDSo2UfXntUUdH0cljL05MIobge2GiA8HK38=; b=fbCqRhV8Ak3F6ufLZ8t8FBitjyF11FSY4+/cNpoQNDwhzbV3DH99AbqJwWpidmxC/L bv9JJgztKLu8YLlphvV7ryd/5AGwX5JwGQFrVi8hkP7qshyAn2/pKzlWy6sjg0hvJ9XY wKF5W87UnMsyvqA522CBsPrlfVIoPD7zmd0eM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zQAY1zGlDSo2UfXntUUdH0cljL05MIobge2GiA8HK38=; b=LV5e9VamC2VI4Qo34Orkqs9mnDYlrnSyucH4D24gQbXUK+QKt2Fd2o/vS4cS13W+l/ Z0Bz5F0Ex9MdH7lWhH/eppJj9YzxsQd/RpiBuGTzVTP4BCoND0HScN62AjYHesqCJK7t eNjC8AtClAEeXklBJ7AlOb8SzioYq35PqmQlz4meqPPk93+rg/zYWaZ9oNTbhGj4ZFGU HTmardUbiwD7Tc+7rnGJ6P4P0GlO0mw6lqindWhjSFPViUDAHLxG4brpyaCV7HwNhpUn nCA4wHccv0aQu3OH3f+2c42zvWVYzDyn7t434sOkLn+2Fge9oihls1iBg0TvPhMf9SXW 1/hQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYyaY74fgehaIpp11qcIWNIiPQ0uQasuSWKWDjlmYP8wJq6OGPm NhB+n4Fdr0o1jTjmqqoHVSutohv2TTbNNQdsFZIA4A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKjpg823U8v6/1JhMqpnPP+dpATJblHwLfdv6F6k1KoWztBt5VWwXBNR1YvuqQvD+eFfubi5TPGMM3gZcPn0+E= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:3b0a:: with SMTP id i10mr5114816wma.26.1586526352217; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:45:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: From: Mallory Knodel Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 09:45:40 -0400 Message-ID: To: farzaneh badii Cc: Paul Wouters , hrpc@irtf.org, Niels ten Oever Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a6a80705a2eff35d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:46:03 -0000 --000000000000a6a80705a2eff35d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Farzaneh, By "the document" I assume you mean draft-political, to which you yourself wrote and presented a differing view in response. Is your document still something you think this group should attend to and work on? Was it revised after the latest rounds of feedback in Prague and on the list? Or perhaps it's been published elsewhere (please share link)? I'd suggest you start a separate thread on this. "without the rush to creating an RFC out of every opinion and manifesto." Anyone actively participating in this group would know there has been no rushing to anything on behalf of this research group; nor is this at all a fair characterisation of our RG's current work items. -Mallory On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 4:09 PM farzaneh badii wrote: > Sure but not every enthusiastic academic piece qualifies as an RFC. Half > baked conceptual ideas that need years of development and their > implementation is doubtful too and there is no consensus around them should > not just be pushed through unless there are fundamental and clear > substantive changes in the document. The evolution of concepts must be > clear with strong empirical analysis. Or it has to be narrower without > grand theoretical and philosophical claims. Otherwise publishing a piece > as RFC is merely giving lip service to human rights. I don't know how this > process is going to play out but maybe academics can layout their concepts > and ideas in the non-RFC track and RG can consider what needs to be > transferred to the RFC track. I think academics are in need of good > feedback to build on what they have, and the non-RFC track should include > ways to receive feedback from the IETF community so that they can improve > their pieces and be published without the rush to creating an RFC out of > every opinion and manifesto. > > Farzaneh > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Wouters wrote: > >> On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> >> > The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and >> interaction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me >> the main reason to work and publish here. >> >> I agree with Niels. Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF >> community takes human rights considerations more seriously. >> >> Paul >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --000000000000a6a80705a2eff35d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Farzaneh,

By "the document= " I assume you mean draft-political, to which you yourself wrote and p= resented a differing view in response. Is your document still something you= think this group should attend to and work on? Was it revised after the la= test rounds of feedback in Prague and on the list? Or perhaps it's been= =C2=A0published elsewhere (please share link)? I'd suggest you start a = separate thread on this.

"without the rush to creating an RFC out= of every opinion and manifesto."

Anyone actively participa= ting in this group would know there has been no rushing to anything on beha= lf of this research group; nor is this at all a fair characterisation of ou= r RG's current work items.

-Mallory

On Th= u, Apr 9, 2020 at 4:09 PM farzaneh badii <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com> wrote:
Sure but not every enthus= iastic academic piece qualifies as an RFC. Half baked conceptual ideas that= need years of development and their implementation is doubtful too and the= re is no consensus around them should not just be pushed through unless the= re are fundamental and clear substantive changes in the document. The evolu= tion of concepts must be clear with strong empirical=C2=A0analysis. Or it h= as to be narrower without grand theoretical and philosophical claims.=C2=A0= Otherwise publishing a piece as RFC is merely giving lip service=C2=A0to h= uman rights. I don't know how this process is going to play out but may= be academics can layout their=C2=A0 concepts and ideas in the non-RFC track= and=C2=A0 RG can consider what needs to be transferred=C2=A0to the RFC tra= ck. I think academics are in need of good feedback to build on what they ha= ve, and the non-RFC track should include ways to receive feedback from the = IETF community so that they can improve their pieces and be published witho= ut the rush to creating an RFC out of every opinion and manifesto.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

Farzaneh


On Thu, Apr 9= , 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote:

> The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and i= nteraction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me the= main reason to work and publish here.

I agree with Niels. Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF
community takes human rights considerations more seriously.

Paul

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Mall= ory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg finger= print :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

--000000000000a6a80705a2eff35d-- From nobody Fri Apr 10 07:17:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294673A0B4C for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:17:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CwJSa2R-ZnCD for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0C393A0B4A for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id a25so2487051wrd.0 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:17:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=C1Q4gQ001xkjqWIV3gev+kr4Ue6Wvg/VwXw/6WvnnCo=; b=TX0z5dIfm4Aebr+e4ybK+xil8Jzdoi390p9Om/HfVem9Z3HtpdH7mpNlq/s3joubnN cBVct5UhZfGSyUxW8pMQ2XYe8A4VygrCgkI6CeDDfX1y3f93BCG6Boe0JUhmpQCOndpv Ul3wMaPrLNJtbQYiikFR3z3au/UIgkAlyOvLY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=C1Q4gQ001xkjqWIV3gev+kr4Ue6Wvg/VwXw/6WvnnCo=; b=ZXamfjtZ3munaxoCMDuo/Ey1Qf7pyVcQjl9AXtT+TfaBUcVa8gK+QUgD/U1p1/+tdb YHLOmQjfWOba9E7O/FSBRWxPTTUC7HEWsU3Eqou5oJn3Z/jSb33EteAGh4eCYDGDGsbE khZ7DClbz8kJlr6sOdNhdZ38RNyJxMdQWAbPVUzuHOPRo/7MDUoutIsqgom9JsVNSxOi kFmqlt9M4SQ38ui4eYawLXqkhGT4xn6Mj4wbk3DB2at1V8R2xOUd2bIt1CVw1DAVj+lR A26GKAW5ZlOBVvFJ7vlgDH0fWJcsCavBtJqCmFtnw1rn8P60PBua/rG0BNGnQvgcrSwH jyCw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZiFTDHZMYgmxWRYl6mqu4Bf/6AY7uJfuktfgR2VoBiAZwlTGJ0 h6InvTj8VdK74612yGVvbZYI1/YX1xc3Pxk0ay3ip6LjyD8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKJ3WY4Tmh+a9EMCKMNyDM8CD2FZRrUs1axwiIXTSoga9eVUx47iltZ9luzgp7nM7MN1dbOx2KM5zjTcTQzJyo= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4d09:: with SMTP id z9mr5207319wrt.292.1586528246058; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 07:17:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Mallory Knodel Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:17:14 -0400 Message-ID: To: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000088670405a2f0641e" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Notes, video link and bluesheets are up X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:17:29 -0000 --00000000000088670405a2f0641e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi folks, If you navigate to Wednesday's meeting materials in the datatracker you will find notes and bluesheets. Please send me corrections to the bluesheets, namely if you didn't add you name and need to. We only have 23 names and at some point had 36 participants, iirc-- though it's been a week of virtual meetings. If you want the video, the link to download it is in the notes. I don't know if there's a way to upload that video somewhere more permanent than "the cloud" of my personal WebEx room. Thanks for a great meeting everyone, -Mallory -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --00000000000088670405a2f0641e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi folks,

If you navigate to Wednesday&= #39;s meeting materials in the datatracker you will find notes and blueshee= ts. Please send me corrections to the bluesheets, namely if you didn't = add you name and need to. We only have 23 names and at some point had 36 pa= rticipants, iirc-- though it's been a week of virtual meetings.

If you want the video, the link to download i= t is in the notes. I don't know if there's a way to upload that vid= eo somewhere more permanent than "the cloud" of my personal WebEx= room.

Thanks for a great meeting everyone,
<= div>-Mallory

--
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Techno= logy
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C7= 80

--00000000000088670405a2f0641e-- From nobody Fri Apr 10 10:09:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9378C3A09B4 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:09:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.379 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.379 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.398, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r5SdbhIR88YG for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0072.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A00B3A09A3 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (clb03-v110.bra.tucows.net [216.40.38.60]) by smtprelay01.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6890100E7B43 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:09:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Session-Marker: 6176726940646F7269612E6F7267 X-Spam-Summary: 2, 0, 0, , d41d8cd98f00b204, avri@doria.org, , RULES_HIT:41:152:355:379:599:854:988:989:1260:1261:1277:1311:1313:1314:1345:1359:1381:1437:1513:1515:1516:1518:1521:1534:1538:1567:1593:1594:1711:1714:1730:1747:1777:1792:2393:2553:2559:2562:2906:3138:3139:3140:3141:3142:3865:3867:3868:3870:3871:3874:4184:4250:5007:6117:7652:7901:7903:8660:10004:10400:10848:11232:11658:11914:12297:12740:12895:13069:13071:13148:13161:13229:13230:13311:13357:14040:14180:14195:21060:21080:21627:30054:30062, 0, RBL:none, CacheIP:none, Bayesian:0.5, 0.5, 0.5, Netcheck:none, DomainCache:0, MSF:not bulk, SPF:, MSBL:0, DNSBL:none, Custom_rules:0:0:0, LFtime:2, LUA_SUMMARY:none X-HE-Tag: play87_4f7d2c9e6b312 X-Filterd-Recvd-Size: 4016 Received: from [192.168.0.32] (ip68-9-182-8.ri.ri.cox.net [68.9.182.8]) (Authenticated sender: avri@doria.org) by omf16.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:09:06 +0000 (UTC) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> <5438ab3d-1303-1cb4-fa78-b9a097d87c24@cs.tcd.ie> From: avri@doria.org Autocrypt: addr=avri@doria.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFJXhnsBCADCE9YSMulYfOUptnfTF1uwP2BRzUq87CAUacN6N5H5k8lNffqEXmgI+QWC njF7OwJ71rQLVYV3sIlpCQU9UyQfLHZDZoqV1d+aAJhgmmG6XtSReUi4jgAvsLzj+HkJSSqU 4voepwXs5k2DgRONAXojxvV5rFExDNqz4fn1zj2jf0SMTbCBkhHw1HQ6WXqW5T73LNbEUVys yEJBb+3+ITCVPTeVm7P/dXIEnsIsRVW8yeYoo1+E+jbPJ0OqHXtrWTdqqlU1CUHBgGWEFIIM qT//XVO0Kck8qyir7wqXb37fhSAkw32ZAKrd2NFrq71qk9Yj+SLtgxxqjGVLcbh3WVfRABEB AAG0G2F2cmkgZG9yaWEgPGF2cmlAZG9yaWEub3JnPokBPAQTAQgAJgIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUI AgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBBQJZvm+gAAoJENWp6aLJ/w+n0uQIAKc9Cb5C7NLtjvu2JvcQ Y8QLiubHVvYHAcTsP2J/JRviFIGeZY7uShuhf6VDI8wYXqAjhLfPGv6KvudwOs1dZ4VvzmUt 4yLWPGMEz7T7cQItc/jcYxJYdtI9g0OfYXQMV4TIIQB2KC40bnLjkd3d5EF+2cQIpivE3RED xQ5DZcsbi5q4E4t0z4Zzg5iskwR58cNnlvbVr+5qlVu1KiDYAMCR+ij4AJtzwpRTkH1l6hrv zOmgsdqqPIzSHWdcZPxWsSOm53sFDE54qABhL6+4fbPzRDZnvObnTP6bukPzX5vzYFGXIcQw RqgGOHi83Wf6dPum6K9YmCzxbdgwRsQGEda5AQ0EUleGewEIAL2hntjt90xA4j9yeFvFMAmE qG/rIj0w3XfV3bQsDBUUdH4rVl3SSPp7rBNhe7drGN+SgQP2lJ6hcikRxfZEj9DnT0/9ERrM MqO7SYUTB6Tx8vIoqmy/T4nqHpVlnCTyixxJDaohUHtTkN3BEie//PlMnIC2tXt9JRMXSTAq 3lrUp2mRzDXBWZLhPVUqx6Uo3MMH1magq888piNJAQdf/P+vSuayjVwPyuG6HEEdG+5Q006Q eZQKfAZinaq3ICEyimWZbLWZRC5bw26PZOKxICUKNA1hAaIhw4OKrGsKRCTOj4cN5T6rr/wj zrwwsxypxUiEac/7bVwgEv5O/+TipAkAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQIbLgUCWb5voAEpwF0gBBkB AgAGBQJSV4Z7AAoJEOo+L8tCe36HTvYH/RXrGi8imCvHou7US+pua51wTQrWghz6nEaavtFR +k5wHrf7WdjxEdDaJnb0YZki5IiEyqhHEq9Tb0JMCye4rzgWpvd1Z8JJ2FXmY8EjuRZg1sP3 3bvxm1hM7qsPCTWXzn1eHY3i5zAdtEEk0h+isLmEuuFWhGNwzyb0BC/h84YHylqv7/bMrHUz CtkUKdO2Vx0W8e/EWUDfLJnHtvTFTT1E/koOnWErJfmKhq2G6rMv13XsU7vr9AWZ6vDA3z2o sCHWkA2gkhU7TwHqPkY9HPoekUXlR/n11jBS9Jwx4Dnsyd7pqaRHxoyRqfEWTi8JF+N+XzC3 buf3G3buW3BDmNcJENWp6aLJ/w+n+8wH/0dSUDcbks95ftWatIWFXdtofOTexLvj13dH9BWa Sy7OQDKa1N838tTsRVLOMpF3AmbkqNWDqdF37HcWST9aO/Pi8vSFGtIbVHD74aFUG3PlNOBs lZea+G2UUV2WSXZPiTci8IL2mF8hrt92LcE/4AaaXh35d8ngpjx3CqIkFoMUHVEA1iye5YL+ GjqFR3R2AMLhwK/Nu9uw+cSJQqeZpzkGulPd4Gccxj8YMLQIiZwMTPIReWgSETohRmzyS04Z 6yQ42xcvoUbQ6lLXW0fjNNTBcD93hnlOk1xf+d9tx3fvigMrkxbVGNx/Ob92oRGwz63nnnPg DoZoktZXmyHIh2E= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:09:04 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5438ab3d-1303-1cb4-fa78-b9a097d87c24@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200409-0, 04/09/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:09:10 -0000 Hi, This is exactly what I mean by agreement to publish without agreement on the contents. avri On 10-Apr-20 05:22, Stephen Farrell wrote: > Another option, from [1], is: "the views in this document > were considered controversial by the FOOBAR RG but the RG > reached a consensus that the document should still be > published". > > I think hrpc in particular could benefit from using that > option. (But if the chairs don't think the RG want to do > that, that's their call, and that's fine.) From nobody Fri Apr 10 10:13:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1208B3A0A0B for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:13:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.917 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.917 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Ff_YDlakWqr for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0074.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7115B3A0A0A for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (clb03-v110.bra.tucows.net [216.40.38.60]) by smtprelay01.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 185DD100E7B42 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:13:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Session-Marker: 6176726940646F7269612E6F7267 X-Spam-Summary: 2, -10, 0, , d41d8cd98f00b204, avri@doria.org, , RULES_HIT:1:2:41:152:355:379:599:800:854:960:967:969:973:988:989:1260:1261:1277:1311:1313:1314:1345:1359:1381:1437:1515:1516:1518:1593:1594:1605:1730:1747:1777:1792:1963:2110:2194:2198:2199:2200:2393:2525:2551:2553:2561:2564:2682:2685:2691:2693:2741:2743:2859:2906:2933:2937:2939:2942:2945:2947:2951:2954:3022:3138:3139:3140:3141:3142:3421:3865:3866:3867:3868:3870:3871:3872:3873:3874:3934:3936:3938:3941:3944:3947:3950:3953:3956:3959:4051:4184:4250:4361:4470:4860:5007:6117:6119:6757:7576:7652:7875:7901:7903:7904:7974:9010:9025:9036:9108:9545:10004:10848:11232:11658:11914:12043:12050:12291:12295:12297:12379:12438:12663:12683:12740:12895:12926:13149:13161:13229:13230:13436:13846:13894:14095:14877:21060:21063:21080:21222:21324:21325:21433:21451:21627:21740:21790:21881:21972:21987:30041:30045:30054:30060:30062:30063:30070:30090:30091, 0, RBL:none, CacheIP:none, Bayesian:0.5, 0.5, 0.5, Netcheck:none, DomainCache:0, MSF:not bulk, SPF:, MSBL:0, DNS X-HE-Tag: goose73_74effc5dc4f16 X-Filterd-Recvd-Size: 11344 Received: from [192.168.0.32] (ip68-9-182-8.ri.ri.cox.net [68.9.182.8]) (Authenticated sender: avri@doria.org) by omf07.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:13:23 +0000 (UTC) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> From: avri@doria.org Autocrypt: addr=avri@doria.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFJXhnsBCADCE9YSMulYfOUptnfTF1uwP2BRzUq87CAUacN6N5H5k8lNffqEXmgI+QWC njF7OwJ71rQLVYV3sIlpCQU9UyQfLHZDZoqV1d+aAJhgmmG6XtSReUi4jgAvsLzj+HkJSSqU 4voepwXs5k2DgRONAXojxvV5rFExDNqz4fn1zj2jf0SMTbCBkhHw1HQ6WXqW5T73LNbEUVys yEJBb+3+ITCVPTeVm7P/dXIEnsIsRVW8yeYoo1+E+jbPJ0OqHXtrWTdqqlU1CUHBgGWEFIIM qT//XVO0Kck8qyir7wqXb37fhSAkw32ZAKrd2NFrq71qk9Yj+SLtgxxqjGVLcbh3WVfRABEB AAG0G2F2cmkgZG9yaWEgPGF2cmlAZG9yaWEub3JnPokBPAQTAQgAJgIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUI AgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBBQJZvm+gAAoJENWp6aLJ/w+n0uQIAKc9Cb5C7NLtjvu2JvcQ Y8QLiubHVvYHAcTsP2J/JRviFIGeZY7uShuhf6VDI8wYXqAjhLfPGv6KvudwOs1dZ4VvzmUt 4yLWPGMEz7T7cQItc/jcYxJYdtI9g0OfYXQMV4TIIQB2KC40bnLjkd3d5EF+2cQIpivE3RED xQ5DZcsbi5q4E4t0z4Zzg5iskwR58cNnlvbVr+5qlVu1KiDYAMCR+ij4AJtzwpRTkH1l6hrv zOmgsdqqPIzSHWdcZPxWsSOm53sFDE54qABhL6+4fbPzRDZnvObnTP6bukPzX5vzYFGXIcQw RqgGOHi83Wf6dPum6K9YmCzxbdgwRsQGEda5AQ0EUleGewEIAL2hntjt90xA4j9yeFvFMAmE qG/rIj0w3XfV3bQsDBUUdH4rVl3SSPp7rBNhe7drGN+SgQP2lJ6hcikRxfZEj9DnT0/9ERrM MqO7SYUTB6Tx8vIoqmy/T4nqHpVlnCTyixxJDaohUHtTkN3BEie//PlMnIC2tXt9JRMXSTAq 3lrUp2mRzDXBWZLhPVUqx6Uo3MMH1magq888piNJAQdf/P+vSuayjVwPyuG6HEEdG+5Q006Q eZQKfAZinaq3ICEyimWZbLWZRC5bw26PZOKxICUKNA1hAaIhw4OKrGsKRCTOj4cN5T6rr/wj zrwwsxypxUiEac/7bVwgEv5O/+TipAkAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQIbLgUCWb5voAEpwF0gBBkB AgAGBQJSV4Z7AAoJEOo+L8tCe36HTvYH/RXrGi8imCvHou7US+pua51wTQrWghz6nEaavtFR +k5wHrf7WdjxEdDaJnb0YZki5IiEyqhHEq9Tb0JMCye4rzgWpvd1Z8JJ2FXmY8EjuRZg1sP3 3bvxm1hM7qsPCTWXzn1eHY3i5zAdtEEk0h+isLmEuuFWhGNwzyb0BC/h84YHylqv7/bMrHUz CtkUKdO2Vx0W8e/EWUDfLJnHtvTFTT1E/koOnWErJfmKhq2G6rMv13XsU7vr9AWZ6vDA3z2o sCHWkA2gkhU7TwHqPkY9HPoekUXlR/n11jBS9Jwx4Dnsyd7pqaRHxoyRqfEWTi8JF+N+XzC3 buf3G3buW3BDmNcJENWp6aLJ/w+n+8wH/0dSUDcbks95ftWatIWFXdtofOTexLvj13dH9BWa Sy7OQDKa1N838tTsRVLOMpF3AmbkqNWDqdF37HcWST9aO/Pi8vSFGtIbVHD74aFUG3PlNOBs lZea+G2UUV2WSXZPiTci8IL2mF8hrt92LcE/4AaaXh35d8ngpjx3CqIkFoMUHVEA1iye5YL+ GjqFR3R2AMLhwK/Nu9uw+cSJQqeZpzkGulPd4Gccxj8YMLQIiZwMTPIReWgSETohRmzyS04Z 6yQ42xcvoUbQ6lLXW0fjNNTBcD93hnlOk1xf+d9tx3fvigMrkxbVGNx/Ob92oRGwz63nnnPg DoZoktZXmyHIh2E= Message-ID: <4de6258b-9979-53a5-5f51-08a8cf0f3043@doria.org> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:13:22 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200409-0, 04/09/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:13:28 -0000 Hi, I was not thinking of curtailing RFCs, but looking for an alternate path. I still argue for publishing any RG RFC that the RG agree to move to RFC with independent submissions being as they have long been. No one needs to make their doc an RG doc. I do not believe, however, that RG submissions and independent submissions are the same or are subjected to the same process. But if too few are interested n the alternate path, then it wont happen. avri On 08-Apr-20 12:27, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Dear Avri, > > For me, as an active I-D author in this RG, publishing RFCs is very important. There are for me, as an academic, many other channels to publish papers and other documents (which I also do). > > The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and interaction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me the main reason to work and publish here. > > Best, > > Niels > > On 4/8/20 12:08 PM, Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote: >> Hello, >> >> This is an interesting approach. >> I'm not commenting on the choice for the HRPC topical content, but am supportive of the idea. >> >> We had/have similar discussion in NMRG (esp. among the chairs) about (the types of) publication of the RG collective outcome. >> The IRTF RFC stream is not always the most appropriate channel (for various reasons: delay, process, or other limitations). >> We don't have recent past examples, but we are aiming to publish a "paper" on Research Challenges for AI in Network Management in a journal based on the work from the RG, involving a group of authors. >> For me, this would clearly be a collective outcome of the RG work. >> In parallel, we will initiate a draft on the same topic, and this is part of the RG milestones. >> I know this is not exactly the solution/approach you describe below, but wanted to share another, similar, possible outcome when it comes to publication of RG work. >> Some scientific societies also offers special issues, editorials, and conferences/workshops reports in their proceedings. >> We have done that for a NMRG workshop and conference session jointly organized with an IEEE conference, with peer-reviewed papers on the research topic of NMRG. The proceeding gathers all materials (the conference report acting as the collective outcome of the work, analysis and discussion), and the peer-reviewed publications are indexed in IEEEXplore (which is a useful incentive for academic researchers). The format was found useful and not so complicated to put in place for a good result. Such an approach offer the advantage of flexibility in topics and timely publication/availability of results. >> >> HTH, best regards, Laurent. >> p.s.: might be worth to open the discussion to the IRSG? And/or as a topic for a future IRTF Open meeting. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: hrpc On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 11:22 >>> To: avri@doria.org; hrpc@irtf.org >>> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication >>> >>> >>> Hiya, >>> >>> I like the idea of trying an "annual" (or "occasional") >>> publication of people's works-in-progress. Sounds a bit >>> like the proceedings of a workshop maybe? But however >>> it's cast, I'd say, yes do try it. >>> >>> One other point, maybe a nit: for me, the RG can be >>> happy that a document is ready for publication even >>> if there is not consensus on all of the content of >>> the document. I think HRPC could do more to publish >>> documents in that kind of state via inclusion of some >>> well-written caveats/disclaimers. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> S. >>> >>> On 08/04/2020 04:24, avri@doria.org wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> ** >>>> >>>> *Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC RG was spinning its >>>> wheels. Our documents aren't moving along the path to RFC very easily >>>> and except for interesting presentations at meetings, well worth while >>>> in themselves, we have not been making great progress with our >>> research.* >>>> * >>>> >>>> Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC publishing. >>>> While I know it is not a requirement for the IRTF, I strongly believe >>>> that research published as a RG RFC should have RG agreement for >>>> publication. This does not mean that there must be agreement on all the >>>> ideas and statements in the doc, but on the finished product. This was >>>> the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. A bit >>>> cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I believe was a better >>>> document. >>>> >>>> >>>> Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees with this approach. To many, >>>> the RFC series is the publication method used by the IRTF and not >>>> everything needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to >>>> individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by IETF rules. >>>> They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict when there is no >>>> requirement to be. This question in one way or another has been asked by >>>> several people in the RG over the last few years. The recent difficulty >>>> has also been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a bit >>>> less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point if they >>>> won't get published. >>>> >>>> >>>> I can see this point of view, and yet, I still find myself unable to >>>> support sending a RG document to the IRSG  that the RG does not think is >>>> ready for publication. Of course individual submissions would be a >>>> different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the RG chair >>>> in the same way. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off for the last >>>> two years. The last time we talked we both felt, I believe, that it was >>>> time to try something different to break the impasse.  I made a >>>> suggestion for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where RG >>>> internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and the other, >>>> the production of a yearly publication that is an edited volume that >>>> does not require RG approval. Mallory suggested that I bring this to the >>>> RG for discussion. >>>> >>>> >>>> What I am suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topic per >>>> year and publish a collection of research, essays, and commentary on >>>> that topic. How we would publish this remains to be discovered; could be >>>> anything from a wiki site to an ebook or even finding a journal to do a >>>> special release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would act as >>>> lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members of the RG in >>>> terms of putting such an effort together, as it does take work and >>>> contributions. >>>> >>>> >>>> In terms of topics for a first year, I have thought of two, but am not >>>> wed to either of them at all. We would need to find a subject that >>>> members of the RG, and hopefully others, would be willing to contribute >>>> their writing to. >>>> >>>> >>>> 1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around the >>>> various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2 - Take the HRPC core question on “whether standards and protocols can >>>> enable, strengthen or threaten human rights” and explore the various >>>> viewpoints on that question, including the pros, the cons and anything >>>> in between. >>>> >>>> >>>> This topic is on our upcoming meeting agenda, and I hope to gather some >>>> viewpoints that will guide how we can move forward, or not as the case >>>> may be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> avri >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> hrpc mailing list >>>> hrpc@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> From nobody Fri Apr 10 10:19:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F03C3A0A45 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:19:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.398, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xjRkmtiK5d2V for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0015.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CDCE3A0A44 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (clb03-v110.bra.tucows.net [216.40.38.60]) by smtprelay06.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C352018225E09; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:19:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Session-Marker: 6176726940646F7269612E6F7267 X-Spam-Summary: 50, 0, 0, , d41d8cd98f00b204, avri@doria.org, , RULES_HIT:1:2:41:152:355:379:599:800:854:960:967:973:988:989:1260:1261:1263:1277:1311:1313:1314:1345:1359:1437:1513:1515:1516:1518:1521:1593:1594:1605:1730:1747:1777:1792:1963:2110:2198:2199:2393:2525:2553:2566:2682:2685:2691:2693:2741:2743:2859:2906:2911:2933:2937:2939:2942:2945:2947:2951:2954:3022:3138:3139:3140:3141:3142:3865:3866:3867:3868:3870:3871:3872:3874:3934:3936:3938:3941:3944:3947:3950:3953:3956:3959:4050:4184:4250:4362:4425:5007:6117:6119:7652:7875:7901:7903:7974:9010:9025:9036:10004:11232:11658:11855:11914:12043:12297:12324:12663:12740:12895:13019:13161:13229:14877:21060:21063:21080:21324:21325:21433:21451:21627:21740:21790:21796:21881:21972:21987:30036:30041:30045:30054:30062:30070:30080:30090:30091, 0, RBL:none, CacheIP:none, Bayesian:0.5, 0.5, 0.5, Netcheck:none, DomainCache:0, MSF:not bulk, SPF:, MSBL:0, DNSBL:none, Custom_rules:0:0:0, LFtime:1, LUA_SUMMARY:none X-HE-Tag: dolls81_195b6735e4e53 X-Filterd-Recvd-Size: 10445 Received: from [192.168.0.32] (ip68-9-182-8.ri.ri.cox.net [68.9.182.8]) (Authenticated sender: avri@doria.org) by omf12.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:19:34 +0000 (UTC) To: Colin Perkins Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <3A5AEC71-74DB-4FDF-B849-F2343959C903@csperkins.org> From: avri@doria.org Autocrypt: addr=avri@doria.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFJXhnsBCADCE9YSMulYfOUptnfTF1uwP2BRzUq87CAUacN6N5H5k8lNffqEXmgI+QWC njF7OwJ71rQLVYV3sIlpCQU9UyQfLHZDZoqV1d+aAJhgmmG6XtSReUi4jgAvsLzj+HkJSSqU 4voepwXs5k2DgRONAXojxvV5rFExDNqz4fn1zj2jf0SMTbCBkhHw1HQ6WXqW5T73LNbEUVys yEJBb+3+ITCVPTeVm7P/dXIEnsIsRVW8yeYoo1+E+jbPJ0OqHXtrWTdqqlU1CUHBgGWEFIIM qT//XVO0Kck8qyir7wqXb37fhSAkw32ZAKrd2NFrq71qk9Yj+SLtgxxqjGVLcbh3WVfRABEB AAG0G2F2cmkgZG9yaWEgPGF2cmlAZG9yaWEub3JnPokBPAQTAQgAJgIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUI AgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAhkBBQJZvm+gAAoJENWp6aLJ/w+n0uQIAKc9Cb5C7NLtjvu2JvcQ Y8QLiubHVvYHAcTsP2J/JRviFIGeZY7uShuhf6VDI8wYXqAjhLfPGv6KvudwOs1dZ4VvzmUt 4yLWPGMEz7T7cQItc/jcYxJYdtI9g0OfYXQMV4TIIQB2KC40bnLjkd3d5EF+2cQIpivE3RED xQ5DZcsbi5q4E4t0z4Zzg5iskwR58cNnlvbVr+5qlVu1KiDYAMCR+ij4AJtzwpRTkH1l6hrv zOmgsdqqPIzSHWdcZPxWsSOm53sFDE54qABhL6+4fbPzRDZnvObnTP6bukPzX5vzYFGXIcQw RqgGOHi83Wf6dPum6K9YmCzxbdgwRsQGEda5AQ0EUleGewEIAL2hntjt90xA4j9yeFvFMAmE qG/rIj0w3XfV3bQsDBUUdH4rVl3SSPp7rBNhe7drGN+SgQP2lJ6hcikRxfZEj9DnT0/9ERrM MqO7SYUTB6Tx8vIoqmy/T4nqHpVlnCTyixxJDaohUHtTkN3BEie//PlMnIC2tXt9JRMXSTAq 3lrUp2mRzDXBWZLhPVUqx6Uo3MMH1magq888piNJAQdf/P+vSuayjVwPyuG6HEEdG+5Q006Q eZQKfAZinaq3ICEyimWZbLWZRC5bw26PZOKxICUKNA1hAaIhw4OKrGsKRCTOj4cN5T6rr/wj zrwwsxypxUiEac/7bVwgEv5O/+TipAkAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQIbLgUCWb5voAEpwF0gBBkB AgAGBQJSV4Z7AAoJEOo+L8tCe36HTvYH/RXrGi8imCvHou7US+pua51wTQrWghz6nEaavtFR +k5wHrf7WdjxEdDaJnb0YZki5IiEyqhHEq9Tb0JMCye4rzgWpvd1Z8JJ2FXmY8EjuRZg1sP3 3bvxm1hM7qsPCTWXzn1eHY3i5zAdtEEk0h+isLmEuuFWhGNwzyb0BC/h84YHylqv7/bMrHUz CtkUKdO2Vx0W8e/EWUDfLJnHtvTFTT1E/koOnWErJfmKhq2G6rMv13XsU7vr9AWZ6vDA3z2o sCHWkA2gkhU7TwHqPkY9HPoekUXlR/n11jBS9Jwx4Dnsyd7pqaRHxoyRqfEWTi8JF+N+XzC3 buf3G3buW3BDmNcJENWp6aLJ/w+n+8wH/0dSUDcbks95ftWatIWFXdtofOTexLvj13dH9BWa Sy7OQDKa1N838tTsRVLOMpF3AmbkqNWDqdF37HcWST9aO/Pi8vSFGtIbVHD74aFUG3PlNOBs lZea+G2UUV2WSXZPiTci8IL2mF8hrt92LcE/4AaaXh35d8ngpjx3CqIkFoMUHVEA1iye5YL+ GjqFR3R2AMLhwK/Nu9uw+cSJQqeZpzkGulPd4Gccxj8YMLQIiZwMTPIReWgSETohRmzyS04Z 6yQ42xcvoUbQ6lLXW0fjNNTBcD93hnlOk1xf+d9tx3fvigMrkxbVGNx/Ob92oRGwz63nnnPg DoZoktZXmyHIh2E= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:19:33 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3A5AEC71-74DB-4FDF-B849-F2343959C903@csperkins.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200409-0, 04/09/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:19:38 -0000 Hi, Thanks for this. Am trying to be flexible on RFCs and trying to be creative. Basically will be willing to pass anything to the IRSG for review that the RG agrees is ready to passed on. Will ask the question of the RG after every drop of a ID that the authors feel might be ready. Time will tell if anything comes of what may turn out to be workable idea. I appreciate the offer of support if/when we figure out that we want to do something beyond RFCs. Thanks avri On 08-Apr-20 06:06, Colin Perkins wrote: > Hi, > > There=E2=80=99s a lot of flexibility in how RGs can operate, and publis= hing > RFCs is only one option. > > For RFCs, consensus documents are certainly important, and are a > common way for groups to operate, but consensus is certainly not a > requirement. Provided that it=E2=80=99s clear why a document is being > published, and whose opinion it represents, a document that > articulates a non-consensus view can be valuable. It might even be > more valuable if published alongside a critique or discussion of the > counterpoint view. The IRTF can be reasonably creative in what RFCs it > publishes.=C2=A0 > > Outside of RFCs, IRTF groups have certainly held workshops in the > past, and I'd encourage such activities. The=C2=A0RAIM workshop > =C2=A0was a good example of this, and the=C2= =A0IAB > workshops =C2=A0are perhaps > another example that might be relevant. Such workshops often publish a > workshop report as an RFC, but we could also work with an appropriate > academic publisher to publish archival proceedings, or simply host > position papers on the website as we did with RAIM. More formal > workshops associated with academic conferences work for some research > groups. Perhaps working with a journal might work for HRPC?=C2=A0 > > Also, we can certainly be more creative in hosting research group > content on irtf.org , where it makes sense to do so. > If HRPC wants to host a curated set of resources, essays, commentary, > etc., then we can discuss how to do that. > > Think what makes sense to advance the research of the group, and we=E2=80= =99ll > try to figure out how to support it. > > Cheers, > Colin > > > > >> On 8 Apr 2020, at 10:21, Stephen Farrell > > wrote: >> >> >> Hiya, >> >> I like the idea of trying an "annual" (or "occasional") >> publication of people's works-in-progress. Sounds a bit >> like the proceedings of a workshop maybe? But however >> it's cast, I'd say, yes do try it. >> >> One other point, maybe a nit: for me, the RG can be >> happy that a document is ready for publication even >> if there is not consensus on all of the content of >> the document. I think HRPC could do more to publish >> documents in that kind of state via inclusion of some >> well-written caveats/disclaimers. >> >> Cheers, >> S. >> >> On 08/04/2020 04:24, avri@doria.org wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> ** >>> >>> *Recently it has felt to me as though the HRPC RG was spinning its >>> wheels. Our documents aren't moving along the path to RFC very easily= >>> and except for interesting presentations at meetings, well worth whil= e >>> in themselves, we have not been making great progress with our >>> research.* >>> >>> * >>> >>> Part of this comes from a disagreement about the use of RFC publishin= g.=C2=A0 >>> While I know it is not a requirement for the IRTF, I strongly believe= >>> that research published as a RG RFC should have RG agreement for >>> publication. This does not mean that there must be agreement on all t= he >>> ideas and statements in the doc, but on the finished product. This wa= s >>> the process we followed with RFC 8280 and I believe it works. A bit >>> cumbersome and slow at times, but it led to what I believe was a bett= er >>> document.=C2=A0 >>> >>> >>> Not everyone, including my co-chair, agrees with this approach. To ma= ny, >>> the RFC series is the publication method used by the IRTF and not >>> everything needs to be a rough consensus document. In addition to >>> individual submissions, IRTF submissions are not bound by IETF rules.= >>> They rightly ask why HRPC should be so strict when there is no >>> requirement to be. This question in one way or another has been asked= by >>> several people in the RG over the last few years. The recent difficul= ty >>> has also been named as a reason for why researchers have seemed a bit= >>> less willing to work on documents lately; what is the point if they >>> won't get published. >>> >>> >>> I can see this point of view, and yet, I still find myself unable to >>> support sending a RG document to the IRSG=C2=A0 that the RG does not = think is >>> ready for publication. Of course individual submissions would be a >>> different matter as those do not need to be shepherded by the RG chai= r >>> in the same way. >>> >>> >>> Mallory and I have been discussing this impasse on and off for the la= st >>> two years. The last time we talked we both felt, I believe, that it w= as >>> time to try something different to break the impasse.=C2=A0 I made a >>> suggestion for working with two tracks, one the RFC track where RG >>> internet drafts need RG support for publication as RFCs, and the othe= r, >>> the production of a yearly publication that is an edited volume that >>> does not require RG approval. Mallory suggested that I bring this to = the >>> RG for discussion. >>> >>> >>> What I am suggesting for the non RFC track is that we pick a topic pe= r >>> year and publish a collection of research, essays, and commentary on >>> that topic. How we would publish this remains to be discovered; could= be >>> anything from a wiki site to an ebook or even finding a journal to do= a >>> special release, if such a thing is possible. Mallory and I would act= as >>> lead editors, but we would need to enlist help from members of the RG= in >>> terms of putting such an effort together, as it does take work and >>> contributions. >>> >>> >>> In terms of topics for a first year, I have thought of two, but am no= t >>> wed to either of them at all. We would need to find a subject that >>> members of the RG, and hopefully others, would be willing to contribu= te >>> their writing to. >>> >>> >>> 1 - Take the draft-politics as the seed and build the edition around = the >>> various aspects of that discussion and the issues it raises. >>> >>> >>> 2 - Take the HRPC core question on =E2=80=9Cwhether standards and pro= tocols can >>> enable, strengthen or threaten human rights=E2=80=9D and explore the = various >>> viewpoints on that question, including the pros, the cons and anythin= g >>> in between. >>> >>> >>> This topic is on our upcoming meeting agenda, and I hope to gather so= me >>> viewpoints that will guide how we can move forward, or not as the cas= e >>> may be, with the idea. Also interested in opinions on the list. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> avri >>> >>> >>> * >> <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc> > > --=C2=A0 > Colin Perkins > https://csperkins.org/ > > > > From nobody Fri Apr 10 10:55:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0B13A0B85 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:55:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BhGguofEz1fP for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x830.google.com (mail-qt1-x830.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 281853A0B73 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x830.google.com with SMTP id o10so2060653qtr.6 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:55:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4zlrC9jeMO34gsYREUcEunM6RCPR5rsXcIXLV53bfrk=; b=qRLER3pV77ct4ROaz4/RqfqnF9YwNgfpbJ/D0UX64c+IGDcbrQiWXMeJ2h7nb13aei MiQDN+hkbi/YlqePAayqqG17E7tS8qrVt+MO3podzmQx/nbMEEqWSCE4cLTOHMrPbbLs wembyauJEqyQXX1lp31UbE+tRZFrRG2RGI8PEwJ2Iyg/R4gV3JVzSIyZSdaF1fVqmpoH hVfQeUg4AFjHYuwj4ItYIU5nvzoyV21dEAeCXf0YkwAJ7yZZI1h3jlNltdkIGx4lcpv8 rvfWpcGXXf9JYL8pjUc5VIxYZiEGZtNKNaUb9dRDODMti2BKEFLLO3jLUaEw0NnjJmcV IzRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4zlrC9jeMO34gsYREUcEunM6RCPR5rsXcIXLV53bfrk=; b=tcfPMPf10NlYST8lQDgAMddAUO4OKJFT2mIDFKvIK8Te2RJL+E1Q43zLubbT9nYLaa XtTA15dkGo/dRC+gIT+EGF3w4sYJZ+idw3y9/Na0Q6Eygj/j56L+cia3PNd+M1KtPG3n 7QCge0u1LjBGFHCKkt4hTr4wY3HcCebw61Sip74qsEec7z/FYo2tlk3kEnFJGIefvGCB gqWNfFTXOEUivnqx+jNFiIfOJBvLlJY1kOWp72NfrjOpse1ly+I5smKkc3Ah7ru650o3 BAawBWsnd8VVNQg7OIp/hFMDNjSm/LlarBzTv/G1TCBB92BJPW+Ap175ypJZQRIhg21v CryA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubzNsY/ZAO+hup1IDrlvDPAXWliM7KIaSkP6A2l8druqtAnc1zm BS3eV9An2O8CmX4GEO2kUXHuJrT247lWl7ygNRo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLtTNj+TOg7cc9oeti7Y6igovimVm0VXLbAxbMpwNsbDhuJcykzcdIMM57rRUXpb+nUIAN+p6txuNfJukTtSAg= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:35e2:: with SMTP id l31mr389784qtb.104.1586541343917; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:55:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: From: farzaneh badii Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:55:17 -0400 Message-ID: To: Mallory Knodel Cc: Niels ten Oever , Paul Wouters , hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000039caa605a2f3712e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:55:50 -0000 --00000000000039caa605a2f3712e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Mallory By document I didn't really mean anything in specific just meant the submissions to the group. Thank you for the offer to send our work to the group for review, the reason we haven't asked the group for comments is that we are yet to develop it further. We received great constructive comments during the session in Prague, last year and thank you for the opportunity. I don't think we submitted it as an Internet draft. And it was beneficial for us and I think the attendees enjoyed the conversation too. I characterize the conversation as a more collegial conversation than the community trying to prove us wrong. I was not saying that RG functions like that (rushing to publish). The fact that you are looking for a solution to keep submissions published but also not characterize all of them as RFCs or look into other kinds of RFCs and streams attest to it. I was just trying to relay what I think the risks are based on my very limited knowledge about the processes. On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 9:45 AM Mallory Knodel wrote: > Hi Farzaneh, > > By "the document" I assume you mean draft-political, to which you yourself > wrote and presented a differing view in response. Is your document still > something you think this group should attend to and work on? Was it revised > after the latest rounds of feedback in Prague and on the list? Or perhaps > it's been published elsewhere (please share link)? I'd suggest you start a > separate thread on this. > > "without the rush to creating an RFC out of every opinion and manifesto." > > Anyone actively participating in this group would know there has been no > rushing to anything on behalf of this research group; nor is this at all a > fair characterisation of our RG's current work items. > > -Mallory > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 4:09 PM farzaneh badii > wrote: > >> Sure but not every enthusiastic academic piece qualifies as an RFC. Half >> baked conceptual ideas that need years of development and their >> implementation is doubtful too and there is no consensus around them should >> not just be pushed through unless there are fundamental and clear >> substantive changes in the document. The evolution of concepts must be >> clear with strong empirical analysis. Or it has to be narrower without >> grand theoretical and philosophical claims. Otherwise publishing a piece >> as RFC is merely giving lip service to human rights. I don't know how this >> process is going to play out but maybe academics can layout their concepts >> and ideas in the non-RFC track and RG can consider what needs to be >> transferred to the RFC track. I think academics are in need of good >> feedback to build on what they have, and the non-RFC track should include >> ways to receive feedback from the IETF community so that they can improve >> their pieces and be published without the rush to creating an RFC out of >> every opinion and manifesto. >> >> Farzaneh >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Wouters wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>> >>> > The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and >>> interaction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me >>> the main reason to work and publish here. >>> >>> I agree with Niels. Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF >>> community takes human rights considerations more seriously. >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> > > > -- > Mallory Knodel > CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > --00000000000039caa605a2f3712e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mallory=C2=A0

By document I didn't really mean anything in spec= ific just meant the submissions to the group.=C2=A0
Thank you f= or the offer to send our work to the group for review, the reason we haven&= #39;t asked the group for comments is that we are yet to develop it further= .

We=C2=A0received great constructive comme= nts during the session in Prague, last year and thank you for the=C2=A0oppo= rtunity. I don't think we submitted it as an Internet draft.=C2=A0And i= t was beneficial for us and I think the attendees enjoyed the conversation = too. I characterize the conversation as a more collegial conversation than = the community trying to prove us wrong.=C2=A0
I was not saying that RG functions like that (r= ushing to publish). The fact that you are looking for a solution to keep su= bmissions published but also not characterize all of them as RFCs=C2=A0 or = look into other kinds of RFCs and streams attest to it. I was just trying t= o relay what I think the risks are based on my very limited knowledge about= the processes.=C2=A0

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 9:45 AM Mall= ory Knodel <mknodel= @cdt.org> wrote:
Hi Farzaneh,

By "the = document" I assume you mean draft-political, to which you yourself wro= te and presented a differing view in response. Is your document still somet= hing you think this group should attend to and work on? Was it revised afte= r the latest rounds of feedback in Prague and on the list? Or perhaps it= 9;s been=C2=A0published elsewhere (please share link)? I'd suggest you = start a separate thread on this.

"without the rush to creating an R= FC out of every opinion and manifesto."

Anyone actively p= articipating in this group would know there has been no rushing to anything= on behalf of this research group; nor is this at all a fair characterisati= on of our RG's current work items.
-Mallory

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 4:09 PM farzaneh badii <= ;farzaneh.bad= ii@gmail.com> wrote:
Sure but not every enthusiastic academic piece qual= ifies as an RFC. Half baked conceptual ideas that need years of development= and their implementation is doubtful too and there is no consensus around = them should not just be pushed through unless there are fundamental and cle= ar substantive changes in the document. The evolution of concepts must be c= lear with strong empirical=C2=A0analysis. Or it has to be narrower without = grand theoretical and philosophical claims.=C2=A0 Otherwise publishing a pi= ece as RFC is merely giving lip service=C2=A0to human rights. I don't k= now how this process is going to play out but maybe academics can layout th= eir=C2=A0 concepts and ideas in the non-RFC track and=C2=A0 RG can consider= what needs to be transferred=C2=A0to the RFC track. I think academics are = in need of good feedback to build on what they have, and the non-RFC track = should include ways to receive feedback from the IETF community so that the= y can improve their pieces and be published without the rush to creating an= RFC out of every opinion and manifesto.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Farzaneh=


On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Wou= ters <paul@nohats.ca= > wrote:
= On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote:

> The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and i= nteraction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me the= main reason to work and publish here.

I agree with Niels. Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF
community takes human rights considerations more seriously.

Paul

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Mallory Knodel
CTO, = Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B2= 40 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

--00000000000039caa605a2f3712e-- From nobody Fri Apr 10 11:08:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403A23A0BF7 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:08:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SkwdBJYsPwb2 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homere.koumbit.net (homere.koumbit.net [199.58.80.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EF873A0BF3 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-f48.google.com (mail-wm1-f48.google.com [209.85.128.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: steph@stephcouture.info) by homere.koumbit.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 10FDF1E41062 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-f48.google.com with SMTP id t203so3241266wmt.2 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:08:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubCy+RL3ocMD3Dpkza52djbWMf0jcY4f3LIWYKfhskiM6BwZ7Av GFDhcrt8QtB8bDmgLs3Kf57l9rZ0HS3jCNUPB0Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJHvJblunJ1JqAxT27N6jrT7h15qOPrCSkDM3fmM4LYwSga4p1bQWRgmwQRXVWI96e0RONHFpIEL4nFNHHT+hQ= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:1bcb:: with SMTP id b194mr6527298wmb.4.1586542103599; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:08:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?St=C3=A9phane_Couture?= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:08:12 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: farzaneh badii Cc: Mallory Knodel , Paul Wouters , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000081a02505a2f39e4b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:08:29 -0000 --00000000000081a02505a2f39e4b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, That is a good discussion. However, I suggest that you keep it open a bit more as it is currently (this long weekend) a holiday for many people, and others might want to jump in later. Here are some inputs : - I agree with the perspective that RFC writing should be at the core of this research group. It is,I think, the way to go to engage with IETF technical community and enhance the discussion about human rights and internet protocols. - However, if we keep a consensus-base approach, I think there is work to be done to clarify or at least do some pedagogy about what exactly =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=9D means in the case of HRTF. It=E2=80=99s one thi= ng to get consensus from 200 people on every words of a document, and another thing to have a consensus that the document respects our common standard of quality by going through different editorial steps. We could decide for instance, that if three people support the document and no one express strong opposition, that the document is considered to reach consensus. But this is just an example. - However (again), if we are interested to get more involvement from academic researchers, it is important to recognize that RFC is a weird document, especially from a social science perspective. First, it is a steep learning curve to ask people to use github and Markdown language to start writing. Second, it is difficult to categorize this research output in our CV: while the process of RFC writing =E2=80=93 as it is now =E2=80= =93 does require multiple reviews and is quite demanding, it is still difficult to qualify this document as =E2=80=9Cdouble blind peer reviewed article=E2=80=9D. Pers= onally, I justify my contribution to RFC, not as a research output, but foremost as a way to engage with the community which is also important, but not the same as publishing an article. - With all this said, I think we should also consider HRPC as a space that has more generative potential than just RFC writing. This is already the case : there is the hrpc website (https://hrpc.io) which includes, among other things the short documentary =E2=80=9CA net of rights=E2=80=9D which = is not an RFC (and by the way, my student made a French translation of the subtitles, which I need to share). An idea I would propose would be to make have a blog - on this website or elsewhere - that would allows sharing less demanding individual texts that could, in turn contribute back to RFC writing (a kind of circularity). We could also use this site =E2=80=93 and = HRPC RG - to promote other related projects/publications, and facilitate collaboration. Anyway, that=E2=80=99s my view based on my observations and my experience w= ith draft-association. Best, St=C3=A9phane Couture Le ven. 10 avr. 2020, =C3=A0 13 h 55, farzaneh badii a =C3=A9crit : > Hi Mallory > > By document I didn't really mean anything in specific just meant the > submissions to the group. > Thank you for the offer to send our work to the group for review, the > reason we haven't asked the group for comments is that we are yet to > develop it further.. > > We received great constructive comments during the session in Prague, > last year and thank you for the opportunity. I don't think we submitted i= t > as an Internet draft. And it was beneficial for us and I think the > attendees enjoyed the conversation too. I characterize the conversation a= s > a more collegial conversation than the community trying to prove us wrong= . > > I was not saying that RG functions like that (rushing to publish). The > fact that you are looking for a solution to keep submissions published bu= t > also not characterize all of them as RFCs or look into other kinds of RF= Cs > and streams attest to it. I was just trying to relay what I think the ris= ks > are based on my very limited knowledge about the processes. > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 9:45 AM Mallory Knodel wrote: > >> Hi Farzaneh, >> >> By "the document" I assume you mean draft-political, to which you >> yourself wrote and presented a differing view in response. Is your docum= ent >> still something you think this group should attend to and work on? Was i= t >> revised after the latest rounds of feedback in Prague and on the list? O= r >> perhaps it's been published elsewhere (please share link)? I'd suggest y= ou >> start a separate thread on this. >> >> "without the rush to creating an RFC out of every opinion and manifesto.= " >> >> Anyone actively participating in this group would know there has been no >> rushing to anything on behalf of this research group; nor is this at all= a >> fair characterisation of our RG's current work items. >> >> -Mallory >> >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 4:09 PM farzaneh badii >> wrote: >> >>> Sure but not every enthusiastic academic piece qualifies as an RFC. Hal= f >>> baked conceptual ideas that need years of development and their >>> implementation is doubtful too and there is no consensus around them sh= ould >>> not just be pushed through unless there are fundamental and clear >>> substantive changes in the document. The evolution of concepts must be >>> clear with strong empirical analysis. Or it has to be narrower without >>> grand theoretical and philosophical claims. Otherwise publishing a pie= ce >>> as RFC is merely giving lip service to human rights. I don't know how t= his >>> process is going to play out but maybe academics can layout their conc= epts >>> and ideas in the non-RFC track and RG can consider what needs to be >>> transferred to the RFC track. I think academics are in need of good >>> feedback to build on what they have, and the non-RFC track should inclu= de >>> ways to receive feedback from the IETF community so that they can impro= ve >>> their pieces and be published without the rush to creating an RFC out o= f >>> every opinion and manifesto. >>> >>> Farzaneh >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Wouters wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>>> >>>> > The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and >>>> interaction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for = me >>>> the main reason to work and publish here. >>>> >>>> I agree with Niels. Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF >>>> community takes human rights considerations more seriously. >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> hrpc mailing list >>>> hrpc@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mallory Knodel >> CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology >> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 >> >> _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --00000000000081a02505a2f39e4b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

That is a good discussion. However, I sugge= st that you keep it open a bit more as it is currently (this long weekend) = a holiday for many people, and others might want to jump in later.

H= ere are some inputs :

- I agree with the perspective that RFC writi= ng should be at the core of this research group.=C2=A0It is,I think, the wa= y to go to engage with IETF technical community and enhance the discussion = about human rights and internet protocols.

- However, if we keep a c= onsensus-base approach, I think there is work to be done to clarify or at l= east do some pedagogy about what exactly =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=9D means = in the case of HRTF. It=E2=80=99s one thing to get consensus from 200 peopl= e on every words of a document, and another thing to have a consensus that = the document respects our common standard of quality by going through diffe= rent editorial steps. We could decide for instance, that if three people su= pport the document and no one express strong opposition, that the document = is considered to reach consensus. But this is just an example.=C2=A0
- However (again), if we are interested to get more involvement from acade= mic researchers, it is important to recognize that RFC is a weird document,= especially from a social science perspective. First, it is a steep learnin= g curve to ask people to use github and Markdown language to start writing.= =C2=A0 Second, it is difficult to categorize this research output in our CV= : while the process of RFC writing =E2=80=93 as it is now =E2=80=93 does re= quire multiple reviews and is quite demanding, it is still difficult to qua= lify this document as =E2=80=9Cdouble blind peer reviewed article=E2=80=9D.= Personally, I justify my contribution to RFC, not as a research output, bu= t foremost as a way to engage with the community which is also important, b= ut not the same as publishing an article.

- With all this said, I th= ink we should also consider HRPC as a space that has more generative potent= ial than just RFC writing. This is already the case : there is the hrpc web= site (https://hrpc.io) which includes, amon= g other things the short documentary =E2=80=9CA net of rights=E2=80=9D whic= h is not an RFC (and by the way, my student made a French translation of th= e subtitles, which I need to share). An idea I would propose would be to ma= ke=C2=A0have a blog - on this website or elsewhere - that would allows=C2= =A0sharing less demanding individual texts that could, in turn contribute b= ack to RFC writing (a kind of circularity). We could also use this site =E2= =80=93 and HRPC RG - to promote other related projects/publications, and fa= cilitate collaboration.

Anyway, that=E2=80=99s my view based on my o= bservations and my experience with draft-association.=C2=A0

<= div>Best,

St=C3=A9phane Couture
=C2=A0

<= br>

Le ven. 10 avr. 2020, =C3=A0 13 h 55, farzaneh badii <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com> a =C3= =A9crit=C2=A0:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
Hi Mallory=C2=A0

By document I didn't really mean anything in speci= fic just meant the submissions to the group.=C2=A0
Thank you fo= r the offer to send our work to the group for review, the reason we haven&#= 39;t asked the group for comments is that we are yet to develop it further.= .

We=C2=A0received great constructive comme= nts during the session in Prague, last year and thank you for the=C2=A0oppo= rtunity. I don't think we submitted it as an Internet draft.=C2=A0And i= t was beneficial for us and I think the attendees enjoyed the conversation = too. I characterize the conversation as a more collegial conversation than = the community trying to prove us wrong.=C2=A0
I was not saying that RG functions like that (r= ushing to publish). The fact that you are looking for a solution to keep su= bmissions published but also not characterize all of them as RFCs=C2=A0 or = look into other kinds of RFCs and streams attest to it. I was just trying t= o relay what I think the risks are based on my very limited knowledge about= the processes.=C2=A0

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 9:45 AM Mall= ory Knodel <mknodel= @cdt.org> wrote:
Hi Farzaneh,

By "the = document" I assume you mean draft-political, to which you yourself wro= te and presented a differing view in response. Is your document still somet= hing you think this group should attend to and work on? Was it revised afte= r the latest rounds of feedback in Prague and on the list? Or perhaps it= 9;s been=C2=A0published elsewhere (please share link)? I'd suggest you = start a separate thread on this.

"without the rush to creating an R= FC out of every opinion and manifesto."

Anyone actively p= articipating in this group would know there has been no rushing to anything= on behalf of this research group; nor is this at all a fair characterisati= on of our RG's current work items.
-Mallory

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 4:09 PM farzaneh badii <= ;farzaneh.bad= ii@gmail.com> wrote:
Sure but not every enthusiastic academic piece qual= ifies as an RFC. Half baked conceptual ideas that need years of development= and their implementation is doubtful too and there is no consensus around = them should not just be pushed through unless there are fundamental and cle= ar substantive changes in the document. The evolution of concepts must be c= lear with strong empirical=C2=A0analysis. Or it has to be narrower without = grand theoretical and philosophical claims.=C2=A0 Otherwise publishing a pi= ece as RFC is merely giving lip service=C2=A0to human rights. I don't k= now how this process is going to play out but maybe academics can layout th= eir=C2=A0 concepts and ideas in the non-RFC track and=C2=A0 RG can consider= what needs to be transferred=C2=A0to the RFC track. I think academics are = in need of good feedback to build on what they have, and the non-RFC track = should include ways to receive feedback from the IETF community so that the= y can improve their pieces and be published without the rush to creating an= RFC out of every opinion and manifesto.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Farzaneh=


On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Wou= ters <paul@nohats.ca= > wrote:
= On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote:

> The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and i= nteraction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me the= main reason to work and publish here.

I agree with Niels. Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF
community takes human rights considerations more seriously.

Paul

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Mallory Knodel
CTO, = Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B2= 40 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
--00000000000081a02505a2f39e4b-- From nobody Fri Apr 10 11:55:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75BFE3A0D4B for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DTfWPAvStmbK for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B93D3A0D4A for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id r26so3653118wmh.0 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:54:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rqwWfgBert9B7u0kKBUpVHz4pZkxN4sRP8GYRmnEjg4=; b=hI8D9hXO19Sy5+jl1h9ZMzs46eeJZHHpOOP42EWCNLPOjy4c/hOaXCiYyKNXPmZ3gs tLMgyIwmhO9fgAzk6Wkh2Gi4sS5zZ9Leffu/H1P5IkEvWkJN3dXLK8jqCRI+Ly8Ium9u MqZDWbPL4nAWKjoMP6DJ7r+hZf6v+bTGa8Ujs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rqwWfgBert9B7u0kKBUpVHz4pZkxN4sRP8GYRmnEjg4=; b=oEEZ/5JyQNUAPOheFo84Yusc12aVFYnSCromVURpy6U91RV57ROA3Nkg6bIRUS1eof PFPaJpjFDB4NS1zSjDJEXXkWIQtfaXqoc4ucwchr6rP6zGxZqtWRTYUfNFEQcOb7pXYZ SRdQCw8/atGxaq4qcGcMe/imvQ+anHuT6VGsuF0rHAdOO/yJJp+SziAaISN00Yu72SmP PcWWzgRXRsTXd0BONTBn92tlWSr8c36e2v6NPF61GR/MAPHl+5O8WndpGUubhAXbOVHF q09z916Af9o4Dy2Jicp5VBGJwLeLgFLI4n8mZEzllEpQzRmVvKJT/JTDtwWCmjkqXtO1 tfBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Puab8m8rtDCzz/NyUc5P2JOSOo5brV15LfS0Ge1GJ3FyrzM+E3i7 daCl6PczpOGjjai/LtUsjdRpHRZpxhrEbvd74HBv7g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKqY7kY/LjMkxEqMNqnEK7Yzr4H9kqrdWaa+yF/EFfILtY3VuD4ZK4xBqPU0XBg3nCP3hrwd4xkXHOwz6xEMZE= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:5502:: with SMTP id j2mr6197897wmb.71.1586544897969; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:54:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: From: Mallory Knodel Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 14:54:47 -0400 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?St=C3=A9phane_Couture?= Cc: farzaneh badii , Paul Wouters , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000010611105a2f445b2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:55:02 -0000 --00000000000010611105a2f445b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Just a bit of history and context, the hrpc.io website is, or should soon be, a flat HTML site without a CRM. It was getting one update per year, maximum, and to me that doesn't justify (vulnerable) software running on a server. If it hasn't been done already, we could interrupt this, so that hrpc.io could become a publishing platform (again). But historically it hasn't been used. When it was actively publishing fresh content it wasn't that much visited. -M On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 2:08 PM St=C3=A9phane Couture wrote: > Hi all, > > That is a good discussion. However, I suggest that you keep it open a bit > more as it is currently (this long weekend) a holiday for many people, an= d > others might want to jump in later. > > Here are some inputs : > > - I agree with the perspective that RFC writing should be at the core of > this research group. It is,I think, the way to go to engage with IETF > technical community and enhance the discussion about human rights and > internet protocols. > > - However, if we keep a consensus-base approach, I think there is work to > be done to clarify or at least do some pedagogy about what exactly > =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=9D means in the case of HRTF. It=E2=80=99s one t= hing to get consensus from > 200 people on every words of a document, and another thing to have a > consensus that the document respects our common standard of quality by > going through different editorial steps. We could decide for instance, th= at > if three people support the document and no one express strong opposition= , > that the document is considered to reach consensus. But this is just an > example. > > - However (again), if we are interested to get more involvement from > academic researchers, it is important to recognize that RFC is a weird > document, especially from a social science perspective. First, it is a > steep learning curve to ask people to use github and Markdown language to > start writing. Second, it is difficult to categorize this research outpu= t > in our CV: while the process of RFC writing =E2=80=93 as it is now =E2=80= =93 does require > multiple reviews and is quite demanding, it is still difficult to qualify > this document as =E2=80=9Cdouble blind peer reviewed article=E2=80=9D. Pe= rsonally, I > justify my contribution to RFC, not as a research output, but foremost as= a > way to engage with the community which is also important, but not the sam= e > as publishing an article. > > - With all this said, I think we should also consider HRPC as a space tha= t > has more generative potential than just RFC writing. This is already the > case : there is the hrpc website (https://hrpc.io) which includes, among > other things the short documentary =E2=80=9CA net of rights=E2=80=9D whic= h is not an RFC > (and by the way, my student made a French translation of the subtitles, > which I need to share). An idea I would propose would be to make have a > blog - on this website or elsewhere - that would allows sharing less > demanding individual texts that could, in turn contribute back to RFC > writing (a kind of circularity). We could also use this site =E2=80=93 an= d HRPC RG > - to promote other related projects/publications, and facilitate > collaboration. > > Anyway, that=E2=80=99s my view based on my observations and my experience= with > draft-association. > > Best, > > St=C3=A9phane Couture > > > > > Le ven. 10 avr. 2020, =C3=A0 13 h 55, farzaneh badii > a =C3=A9crit : > >> Hi Mallory >> >> By document I didn't really mean anything in specific just meant the >> submissions to the group. >> Thank you for the offer to send our work to the group for review, the >> reason we haven't asked the group for comments is that we are yet to >> develop it further.. >> >> We received great constructive comments during the session in Prague, >> last year and thank you for the opportunity. I don't think we submitted = it >> as an Internet draft. And it was beneficial for us and I think the >> attendees enjoyed the conversation too. I characterize the conversation = as >> a more collegial conversation than the community trying to prove us wron= g. >> >> I was not saying that RG functions like that (rushing to publish). The >> fact that you are looking for a solution to keep submissions published b= ut >> also not characterize all of them as RFCs or look into other kinds of R= FCs >> and streams attest to it. I was just trying to relay what I think the ri= sks >> are based on my very limited knowledge about the processes. >> >> On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 9:45 AM Mallory Knodel wrote: >> >>> Hi Farzaneh, >>> >>> By "the document" I assume you mean draft-political, to which you >>> yourself wrote and presented a differing view in response. Is your docu= ment >>> still something you think this group should attend to and work on? Was = it >>> revised after the latest rounds of feedback in Prague and on the list? = Or >>> perhaps it's been published elsewhere (please share link)? I'd suggest = you >>> start a separate thread on this. >>> >>> "without the rush to creating an RFC out of every opinion and >>> manifesto." >>> >>> Anyone actively participating in this group would know there has been n= o >>> rushing to anything on behalf of this research group; nor is this at al= l a >>> fair characterisation of our RG's current work items. >>> >>> -Mallory >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 4:09 PM farzaneh badii >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Sure but not every enthusiastic academic piece qualifies as an RFC. >>>> Half baked conceptual ideas that need years of development and their >>>> implementation is doubtful too and there is no consensus around them s= hould >>>> not just be pushed through unless there are fundamental and clear >>>> substantive changes in the document. The evolution of concepts must be >>>> clear with strong empirical analysis. Or it has to be narrower without >>>> grand theoretical and philosophical claims. Otherwise publishing a pi= ece >>>> as RFC is merely giving lip service to human rights. I don't know how = this >>>> process is going to play out but maybe academics can layout their con= cepts >>>> and ideas in the non-RFC track and RG can consider what needs to be >>>> transferred to the RFC track. I think academics are in need of good >>>> feedback to build on what they have, and the non-RFC track should incl= ude >>>> ways to receive feedback from the IETF community so that they can impr= ove >>>> their pieces and be published without the rush to creating an RFC out = of >>>> every opinion and manifesto. >>>> >>>> Farzaneh >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Wouters wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, an= d >>>>> interaction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for= me >>>>> the main reason to work and publish here. >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Niels. Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF >>>>> community takes human rights considerations more seriously. >>>>> >>>>> Paul >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> hrpc mailing list >>>>> hrpc@irtf.org >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> hrpc mailing list >>>> hrpc@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mallory Knodel >>> CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology >>> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> > --=20 Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --00000000000010611105a2f445b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

Just a bit of history=C2=A0and = context, the hrpc.io website is, or should= =C2=A0soon be, a flat HTML site without a CRM. It was getting one update pe= r year, maximum, and to me that doesn't justify (vulnerable) software r= unning on a server. If it hasn't been done already, we could interrupt = this, so that hrpc.io could become a publish= ing platform (again). But historically it hasn't been used. When it was= actively publishing fresh content it wasn't that much visited.

-M

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 2:08 PM St=C3=A9phane Cou= ture <listes@stephcouture.in= fo> wrote:
Hi all,

That is a good discussion. However, I sug= gest that you keep it open a bit more as it is currently (this long weekend= ) a holiday for many people, and others might want to jump in later.
Here are some inputs :

- I agree with the perspective that RFC wri= ting should be at the core of this research group.=C2=A0It is,I think, the = way to go to engage with IETF technical community and enhance the discussio= n about human rights and internet protocols.

- However, if we keep a= consensus-base approach, I think there is work to be done to clarify or at= least do some pedagogy about what exactly =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=9D mean= s in the case of HRTF. It=E2=80=99s one thing to get consensus from 200 peo= ple on every words of a document, and another thing to have a consensus tha= t the document respects our common standard of quality by going through dif= ferent editorial steps. We could decide for instance, that if three people = support the document and no one express strong opposition, that the documen= t is considered to reach consensus. But this is just an example.=C2=A0
<= br>- However (again), if we are interested to get more involvement from aca= demic researchers, it is important to recognize that RFC is a weird documen= t, especially from a social science perspective. First, it is a steep learn= ing curve to ask people to use github and Markdown language to start writin= g.=C2=A0 Second, it is difficult to categorize this research output in our = CV: while the process of RFC writing =E2=80=93 as it is now =E2=80=93 does = require multiple reviews and is quite demanding, it is still difficult to q= ualify this document as =E2=80=9Cdouble blind peer reviewed article=E2=80= =9D. Personally, I justify my contribution to RFC, not as a research output= , but foremost as a way to engage with the community which is also importan= t, but not the same as publishing an article.

- With all this said, = I think we should also consider HRPC as a space that has more generative po= tential than just RFC writing. This is already the case : there is the hrpc= website (https://hrpc.io= ) which includes, among other things the short documentary =E2=80=9CA net o= f rights=E2=80=9D which is not an RFC (and by the way, my student made a Fr= ench translation of the subtitles, which I need to share). An idea I would = propose would be to make=C2=A0have a blog - on this website or elsewhere - = that would allows=C2=A0sharing less demanding individual texts that could, = in turn contribute back to RFC writing (a kind of circularity). We could al= so use this site =E2=80=93 and HRPC RG - to promote other related projects/= publications, and facilitate collaboration.

Anyway, that=E2=80=99s m= y view based on my observations and my experience with draft-association.= =C2=A0

Best,

St=C3=A9phane Cout= ure
=C2=A0



Le ven. 10 avr. 2020, =C3=A0 13 h 55, farzan= eh badii <= farzaneh.badii@gmail.com> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
Hi Mallory=C2=A0

By document I d= idn't really mean anything in specific just meant the submissions to th= e group.=C2=A0
Thank you for the offer to send our work to the = group for review, the reason we haven't asked the group for comments is= that we are yet to develop it further..

<= span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We= =C2=A0received great constructive comments during the session in Prague, la= st year and thank you for the=C2=A0opportunity. I don't think we submit= ted it as an Internet draft.=C2=A0And it was beneficial for us and I think = the attendees enjoyed the conversation too. I characterize the conversation= as a more collegial conversation than the community trying to prove us wro= ng.=C2=A0

I was no= t saying that RG functions like that (rushing to publish). The fact that yo= u are looking for a solution to keep submissions published but also not cha= racterize all of them as RFCs=C2=A0 or look into other kinds of RFCs and st= reams attest to it. I was just trying to relay what I think the risks are b= ased on my very limited knowledge about the processes.=C2=A0

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 9:45 AM Mallory Knodel <mknodel@cdt.org> wrote:
Hi Farzaneh= ,

By "the document" I assume you mean dra= ft-political, to which you yourself wrote and presented a differing view in= response. Is your document still something you think this group should att= end to and work on? Was it revised after the latest rounds of feedback in P= rague and on the list? Or perhaps it's been=C2=A0published elsewhere (p= lease share link)? I'd suggest you start a separate thread on this.

"without the rush to creating an RFC out of every opinion and manifest= o."
Anyone actively participating in this group would know = there has been no rushing to anything on behalf of this research group; nor= is this at all a fair characterisation of our RG's current work items.=

-Mallory

On Thu, Apr = 9, 2020 at 4:09 PM farzaneh badii <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Sure but not e= very enthusiastic academic piece qualifies as an RFC. Half baked conceptual= ideas that need years of development and their implementation is doubtful = too and there is no consensus around them should not just be pushed through= unless there are fundamental and clear substantive changes in the document= . The evolution of concepts must be clear with strong empirical=C2=A0analys= is. Or it has to be narrower without grand theoretical and philosophical cl= aims.=C2=A0 Otherwise publishing a piece as RFC is merely giving lip servic= e=C2=A0to human rights. I don't know how this process is going to play = out but maybe academics can layout their=C2=A0 concepts and ideas in the no= n-RFC track and=C2=A0 RG can consider what needs to be transferred=C2=A0to = the RFC track. I think academics are in need of good feedback to build on w= hat they have, and the non-RFC track should include ways to receive feedbac= k from the IETF community so that they can improve their pieces and be publ= ished without the rush to creating an RFC out of every opinion and manifest= o.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Farzaneh


On= Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wr= ote:

> The publication in the RFC-series and the connected exposure to, and i= nteraction with, the technical community in the IRTF and IETF is for me the= main reason to work and publish here.

I agree with Niels. Publishing an RFC is needed so that the IETF
community takes human rights considerations more seriously.

Paul

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Mallory Knodel
CTO, = Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B2= 40 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Mall= ory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg finger= print :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

--00000000000010611105a2f445b2-- From nobody Fri Apr 10 17:26:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3293A13A5 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:26:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X31p7E3P6zht for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32FBB3A13A4 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id f13so4033462wrm.13 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:26:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=B3QNR5H0ONMEDiYrfXxfAKu5HLAINGSgkNqBa5HXpmk=; b=OlSMe7ZXK7EJ1GgLnQ8vnu3k4aT2e34Hi252qU4M/JIkaMLuBhcgIZNxspggL2wSIf Va02RS6MTrisY6KNX2XLIrwECifccS2VNTvG4d60hpJqUZ3bxc6C6MCdTPlnVpgSqni5 /e62GyrcEKYJOpxXQKO7GuXDuw7jnWE3HLn5Y= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=B3QNR5H0ONMEDiYrfXxfAKu5HLAINGSgkNqBa5HXpmk=; b=Zl6/37kQ8CywYU+n0vFJZ7AVxiLSNhm1QpjgMCSbuv01ucs1f/Rvn1CZ9V9czy4zT2 yPHn6BkzySaV9zprsc1jCkCEWtxtREZgiYQgctcjKNkeF0b/mNLh4PzSvd8MPFzBOr3z 6gsVG2ohRlUNrJheZAReOAnFa5Wu7VgGyYcUJAbA/qcKn74b2UuDY8M/eUXYiZwJuJhm Y/rb11MDvQ19Tkh2C/Td+kgFTwpSLLe1+Nlq1O3R6aiwc/pmMi2csNFRDW8Ri/pWAtm/ bZZsmTpFtPTS6YUo+3OHGZz0Y+XmJg96H6tJ7G7fn2/VJjfX/+kY7gYw+5Q1SxeztoRK NE3w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZYVMQqD0E07V/oANjoZSkukmktQwwkVxhzOLCcrqUzcGk1X15o crGVrd6I1yXVphgJ0x85X/0/lQUzxd45Qt/Z1eCfBXHU X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLP86DSM+VGaoogDjpReog/sydPYQ6aj9Y/OHptOdPPTCArefxya3XtAAPdnfwJuL5pomnetUWp/PiC8115ZJ4= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6102:: with SMTP id v2mr6953596wrt.298.1586564814387; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:26:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Mallory Knodel Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:26:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002cd5a305a2f8e8fc" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Video now on youtube [Fwd: HRPC interim] X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 00:26:58 -0000 --0000000000002cd5a305a2f8e8fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" FYI ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Jenny Bui via RT Date: Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 5:47 PM Subject: [www.ietf.org/rt #287769] HRPC interim To: Thanks Mallory! The WebEx recording is now uploaded onto YouTube, please feel free to view it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf2mAWd_CoQ&feature=youtu.be. Have a great weekend. Best, Jenny Bui IETF Secretariat -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --0000000000002cd5a305a2f8e8fc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
FYI

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Jenny Bui via RT <proceedings@ietf.org<= /a>>
Date: Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 5:47 PM
Subject: [www.ietf.org/rt #287769] HRPC interim
To= : <mknodel@cdt.org>
=

Thanks Mallory! The WebEx recording is now uploaded onto YouTube, p= lease feel
free to view it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= =3Dlf2mAWd_CoQ&feature=3Dyoutu.be.

Have a great weekend.

Best,
Jenny Bui
IETF Secretariat

--
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and = Technology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 B= D3C C780

--0000000000002cd5a305a2f8e8fc-- From nobody Fri Apr 10 18:35:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0168C3A14F3 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:35:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4YgwhqAeMx07 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78E3C3A14F2 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id f82so30635ilh.8 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:35:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Dbvh/YRNb0qhRAskSwV/zgDcon+q+8mH9w89bCuL1yI=; b=oAZA3CSM4ECfnC7+KFLYk1iOEX6MBiAWk4w1gdXx0NPQYXJ/XEi0cXQZAFPo+V2M1S s4daW3c+VWiWgQ+793QV25yitHXQtAIzMBl5e4AwgE/DWgdDwRxUnKkhbtN7yvZJ+drX ZCpqMjIoV6lv5Ldl4qhM68L9+JWvU1Cprm4w01kPvtbYfz7XkT+dSzyxVDwOmiZviHiJ 628TnHrSGFgGUgUYerhWvzvfF91sIT/LK2Gh9QmW3WkCad3aNz9/CKVfcx56HY/pjZ56 hDDSpmuEfy3KH0e99lox3hxPlvCXok7SmFfB+JlpGj6CxMCafWvZ8GWzhmEJFEmjeBYa xAfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Dbvh/YRNb0qhRAskSwV/zgDcon+q+8mH9w89bCuL1yI=; b=ibYV9k3Tf+QwDiUGEdi9GXbdW4UHwStzMqwyN/audRBCFr54Jaz9NwthQhUjy9POtc 94xEm+9Q5dSGdq4APoL6qBl37aNimkd+Qst2RFiR1XcTCF1jC/nyIKMFZwXCOn70sn7l h4tP6jL5YmiTRrwUgSFLscVwHVJNMd9KmnKP4ZlcOsZS0cnuOGCuDqoVpP93YdTMefOJ bjrEDeQpDyoT/42AnwHEiIazJ9P9SGGD9siIxnyavod+faYEktfuQYI606eH+ppjTIkx uXZjoafwyd6QtUk23hcSkubWllOFbgeivhMCKGfrujH47u9m6vUgjlh5Ff0lxCU/IabH 7wYg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubtHvZvLdVJSqVrxXHXaPWq1dtIdfBzeqStvrnzSMe0mEkNQ0hF mrlsdK/W66nYjVuPOFo1I+c5NGO7xxYyiK4WSM/diXI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJ23DKSmBXxCPZCaNtoHeBzIrNWIZKZ7cVq5jhpPgAEHTQAcqTOZES7jfGGkIh15F5p9fRuuGa6ZNn4ecenWoU= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c525:: with SMTP id m5mr8034339ili.146.1586568935430; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:35:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Joly MacFie Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 21:35:00 -0400 Message-ID: To: Mallory Knodel Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cede2505a2f9dd22" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Video now on youtube [Fwd: HRPC interim] X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 01:35:38 -0000 --000000000000cede2505a2f9dd22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Is it me, or is there no audio on that? joly On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 8:27 PM Mallory Knodel wrote: > FYI > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Jenny Bui via RT > Date: Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 5:47 PM > Subject: [www.ietf.org/rt #287769] HRPC interim > To: > > > Thanks Mallory! The WebEx recording is now uploaded onto YouTube, please > feel > free to view it here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf2mAWd_CoQ&feature=youtu.be. > > Have a great weekend. > > Best, > Jenny Bui > IETF Secretariat > > -- > Mallory Knodel > CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --000000000000cede2505a2f9dd22 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is = it me, or is there no audio on that?

joly

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 8:27 PM Mallory Knodel <mknodel@cdt.org> wrote:
FYI
---------= - Forwarded message ---------
From: Jenny Bui via RT <proceedings@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 5:47 PM
Subject: [www.ietf.org/rt #287769] HRPC interim=
To: <mknodel@c= dt.org>


Thanks Mallory! The WebEx recording is now = uploaded onto YouTube, please feel
free to view it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= =3Dlf2mAWd_CoQ&feature=3Dyoutu.be.

Have a great weekend.

Best,
Jenny Bui
IETF Secretariat

--
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center fo= r Democracy and Technology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 = B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
--000000000000cede2505a2f9dd22-- From nobody Sat Apr 11 04:43:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7803A10E6 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:43:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.651 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.651 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1rFMxJ9qOeO6 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.bortzmeyer.org (ayla.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fe27:3d3f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0028E3A10E3 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ayla.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 3B039A0277; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:43:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B2BDBCADEF; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:41:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:41:01 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: =?utf-8?B?U3TDqXBoYW5l?= Couture Cc: farzaneh badii , Mallory Knodel , Paul Wouters , Hrpc , Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <20200411114101.GA2429@sources.org> References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <68b733e9-4053-60d9-b65d-f8dac2712f00@nielstenoever.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 10.3 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:43:12 -0000 On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 02:08:12PM -0400, Stéphane Couture wrote a message of 358 lines which said: > First, it is a steep learning curve to ask people to use github and > Markdown language to start writing. Note that Github is not mandatory. I don't use it, for instance, for political reasons (it is a centralized service run by Microsoft.) > Second, it is difficult to categorize this research output in our > CV: while the process of RFC writing – as it is now – does require > multiple reviews and is quite demanding, it is still difficult to > qualify this document as “double blind peer reviewed article”. I recommend reading « Internet Requests for Comments (RFCs) as Scholarly Publications » . From nobody Sat Apr 11 04:48:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFE963A10F9 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:48:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.651 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.651 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RHbcQa0vUe8Z for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.bortzmeyer.org (ayla.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fe27:3d3f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F7D43A10EF for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ayla.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 47DE8A0279; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:48:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A1770CADEF; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:45:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:45:23 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Colin Perkins Cc: Stephen Farrell , avri@doria.org, hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20200411114523.GB2429@sources.org> References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <3A5AEC71-74DB-4FDF-B849-F2343959C903@csperkins.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3A5AEC71-74DB-4FDF-B849-F2343959C903@csperkins.org> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 10.3 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:48:15 -0000 On Wed, Apr 08, 2020 at 11:06:22AM +0100, Colin Perkins wrote a message of 352 lines which said: > we could also work with an appropriate academic publisher to publish > archival proceedings, A warning: many (most?) "academic publishers" actively prevent the free distribution of the articles they publish. If the RG were to publish anything as a group, it MUST be in a way that will allow free redistribution (as it is the case for the RFCs, see RFC 8721.) No Springer-Verlag or Elsevier in the loop. From nobody Sat Apr 11 04:52:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5BA3A1107 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:52:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zJ0XY-dgNGCh for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 873053A1109 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 04:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=39263 helo=[192.168.0.80]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1jNEgU-00061c-5u; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 12:52:30 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <20200411114523.GB2429@sources.org> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 12:52:21 +0100 Cc: Stephen Farrell , avri@doria.org, hrpc@irtf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <3A5AEC71-74DB-4FDF-B849-F2343959C903@csperkins.org> <20200411114523.GB2429@sources.org> To: Stephane Bortzmeyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:52:35 -0000 > On 11 Apr 2020, at 12:45, Stephane Bortzmeyer = wrote: > On Wed, Apr 08, 2020 at 11:06:22AM +0100, Colin Perkins = wrote a message of 352 lines which said: >=20 >> we could also work with an appropriate academic publisher to publish >> archival proceedings, >=20 > A warning: many (most?) "academic publishers" actively prevent the > free distribution of the articles they publish. If the RG were to > publish anything as a group, it MUST be in a way that will allow free > redistribution (as it is the case for the RFCs, see RFC 8721.) No > Springer-Verlag or Elsevier in the loop. I=E2=80=99m well aware of these issues, but thank you for the reminder. --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Mon Apr 13 02:04:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 272FD3A1235 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 02:04:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XpuR5LuYJGpL for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 02:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A15253A1232 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 02:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1jNv0l-0000YG-ND for hrpc@irtf.org; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:04:12 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: From: Niels ten Oever Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABtChOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+iQJZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI7kCDQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <7fc52d3b-ebaa-3944-87fa-a383ef92d674@nielstenoever.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:04:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 897836312160ed0141c32cdc6ac56212 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Video now on youtube [Fwd: HRPC interim] X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:04:18 -0000 @ Joly - Works for me! @ Mallory - Thank for uploading and hosting this excellent session. Generally I have to say that I really enjoy remote meetings, the dynamic is better than when there is blended remote and physical participation. Physical participation during IETF/IRTF meetings is always a bit awkward imho because everyone stares at their screens - so from my perspective, am happy to stop burning jet-fuel and continue IRTF/IETF meetings in this manner. But I may be alone in this. Best, Niels On 4/11/20 3:35 AM, Joly MacFie wrote: > Is it me, or is there no audio on that? > > joly > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 8:27 PM Mallory Knodel > wrote: > > FYI > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: *Jenny Bui via RT* > > Date: Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 5:47 PM > Subject: [www.ietf.org/rt #287769] HRPC interim > To: > > > > Thanks Mallory! The WebEx recording is now uploaded onto YouTube, please feel > free to view it here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf2mAWd_CoQ&feature=youtu.be. > > Have a great weekend. > > Best, > Jenny Bui > IETF Secretariat > > -- > Mallory Knodel > CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Mon Apr 13 04:06:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA143A13F0 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 04:06:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11oYN0NCCUOE for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 04:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A7F43A13EF for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 04:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1jNwv0-0002eE-Rn for hrpc@irtf.org; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:06:23 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <3A5AEC71-74DB-4FDF-B849-F2343959C903@csperkins.org> <20200411114523.GB2429@sources.org> From: Niels ten Oever Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABtChOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+iQJZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI7kCDQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:06:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: dfea3049d3b923820beb462d65569822 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] The relevance of RFCs // was: Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:06:29 -0000 Hi all, In discussions here and on other mailinglists, some have criticized the format of I-D and RFCs, the workings of the datatracker, the slightly archaic nature of mailinglists and other tools that we use. I, however, would like to shortly note how important I-D's, RFC's, mailinglists, and the datatracker have been in my research, my involvement in this field, and how extraordinary it is that it is possible to find documents, notes, and presentations going back to 1969. While there is indeed a learning curve, the reward for traveling that curve is access to a huge wealth of highly consistent information in a very structured archive. In many different kinds of organizations it is hardly possible to find documents from just a few years back, let alone finding them in the same format and context. This is true for NGOs, universities, private corporations, governance bodies, and sadly also governments. Furthermore, RFC's for me embody a relational understanding of infrastructure that combines hardware, software, and wetware, or in the vernacular of another field: technological materiality, institutional ordering, economic drivers, and epistemic communities. For me, this is an important argument to keep on using RFCs and I-Ds (and by extension also mailinglists and the datatrackers), to keep this practice alive, by testing and expanding it with new, and sometimes relevant, contributions. Best, Niels On 4/11/20 1:52 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: >> On 11 Apr 2020, at 12:45, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 08, 2020 at 11:06:22AM +0100, Colin Perkins wrote a message of 352 lines which said: >> >>> we could also work with an appropriate academic publisher to publish >>> archival proceedings, >> >> A warning: many (most?) "academic publishers" actively prevent the >> free distribution of the articles they publish. If the RG were to >> publish anything as a group, it MUST be in a way that will allow free >> redistribution (as it is the case for the RFCs, see RFC 8721.) No >> Springer-Verlag or Elsevier in the loop. > > I’m well aware of these issues, but thank you for the reminder. > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate DATACTIVE Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Mon Apr 13 06:46:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A3C3A1619 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 06:46:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ix4SwxxLKueW for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 06:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com (mail-wr1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC5693A1616 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 06:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id k1so2965632wrx.4 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 06:46:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=klPno8ELMcggl/7judhs7pCyG5ragjVK2F9Igz7FMiU=; b=pkMD7+86FHxKYIeyLa3AmMjV30TDDyaN9yRY0QliBQaGUZjVyFSJPu9XIcFVHO0ZIZ ez50eVob6rDXg+WDt1FCYejOd8SSPupv0U1H93tqvT9HFl1FTBipwhMhbn0c9JSel4Fj OtwvXqzla6AVKgvIiizB0XjpHqxi8wdqJo+IA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=klPno8ELMcggl/7judhs7pCyG5ragjVK2F9Igz7FMiU=; b=t/CCT+HSHwITWVPHUJpgkMAns2L38RAD0k9ZvXtI1+5fedjze9TCeW40cd0W2PIgK2 rFPqrCnCtQzOHi2nfY+RK7BM+u6Bn0/Y8Ag3xD/s7+sxMjDLRPu7njNimPxTDi1iJCiC 4ZkSEx2JVCrEEAupxtdQy9sDWKvxbSJ3LZw9AEeI7dQ1VZ4qd7GFTvgt5LblMPzw8mgs RAcDKs9F9NCV+tomwK4oW4Yi7SEMEx17l+dctQOYWJgU+rPxFwRAYScl6me5Gc2V4DOF jk+VkcVhczmQXdYktzL39q7xWwRdNUgofflGULj7uSM6NEa3D0P0WcF0DaUTSA2LaaJg 0IXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYcHqUX7GuRChiM/+JnoJYZNMVV6byVP8q/4o9cz8sltDILEeyn aDDgOjGp7KPKEu7sbHTb3Fg+ThumWRY5sSncQ4uIt2B7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLA2QyEqBjAFBoXHhoDFNu2E7sfCreT/+yADDw/+mQvYy14C+c7hImx6y4qs7jhB9OSiXNnT+KpAkf0971bVvU= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f5d0:: with SMTP id k16mr18722816wrp.227.1586785565009; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 06:46:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7fc52d3b-ebaa-3944-87fa-a383ef92d674@nielstenoever.net> In-Reply-To: <7fc52d3b-ebaa-3944-87fa-a383ef92d674@nielstenoever.net> From: Mallory Knodel Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:45:53 -0400 Message-ID: To: Niels ten Oever Cc: Hrpc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f0112805a32c4deb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Video now on youtube [Fwd: HRPC interim] X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 13:46:13 -0000 --000000000000f0112805a32c4deb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I think even if we burn a moderate amount of jet fuel in the future, I would definitely like to do more regular remote interims. -M On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:04 AM Niels ten Oever wrote: > @ Joly - Works for me! > @ Mallory - Thank for uploading and hosting this excellent session. > > Generally I have to say that I really enjoy remote meetings, the dynamic > is better than when there is blended remote and physical participation. > Physical participation during IETF/IRTF meetings is always a bit awkward > imho because everyone stares at their screens - so from my perspective, am > happy to stop burning jet-fuel and continue IRTF/IETF meetings in this > manner. But I may be alone in this. > > Best, > > Niels > > On 4/11/20 3:35 AM, Joly MacFie wrote: > > Is it me, or is there no audio on that? > > > > joly > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 8:27 PM Mallory Knodel mknodel@cdt.org>> wrote: > > > > FYI > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > From: *Jenny Bui via RT* proceedings@ietf.org>> > > Date: Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 5:47 PM > > Subject: [www.ietf.org/rt #287769] HRPC > interim > > To: > > > > > > > Thanks Mallory! The WebEx recording is now uploaded onto YouTube, > please feel > > free to view it here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf2mAWd_CoQ&feature=youtu.be. > > > > Have a great weekend. > > > > Best, > > Jenny Bui > > IETF Secretariat > > > > -- > > Mallory Knodel > > CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology > > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > > -- > Niels ten Oever > Researcher and PhD Candidate > DATACTIVE Research Group > University of Amsterdam > > PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 > 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --000000000000f0112805a32c4deb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think even if we burn a moderate amount of jet fuel in t= he future, I would definitely like to do more regular remote interims.
=
-M

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:04 AM Niels ten Oever <= mail@nielstenoever.net> wr= ote:
@ Joly - Wo= rks for me!
@ Mallory - Thank for uploading and hosting this excellent session.

Generally I have to say that I really enjoy remote meetings, the dynamic is= better than when there is blended remote and physical participation. Physi= cal participation during IETF/IRTF meetings is always a bit awkward imho be= cause everyone stares at their screens - so from my perspective, am happy t= o stop burning jet-fuel and continue IRTF/IETF meetings in this manner. But= I may be alone in this.

Best,

Niels

On 4/11/20 3:35 AM, Joly MacFie wrote:
> Is it me, or is there no audio on that?
>
> joly
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 8:27 PM Mallory Knodel <mknodel@cdt.org <mailto:mknodel@cdt.org>> wrot= e:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0FYI
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------- Forwarded message ---------
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: *Jenny Bui via RT* <proceedings@ietf.org <mailto:proceedings@ietf.org= >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date: Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 5:47 PM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: [www.ietf.org/rt <http://www.ietf.org/rt<= /a>> #287769] HRPC interim
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: <mknodel@cdt.org <mailto:mknodel@cdt.org>>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks Mallory! The WebEx recording is now uploaded= onto YouTube, please feel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0free to view it here:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://= www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dlf2mAWd_CoQ&feature=3Dyoutu.be.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Have a great weekend.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jenny Bui
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Secretariat
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mallory Knodel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C= 32 A271 BD3C C780
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hrpc mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= hrpc@irtf.org <mailto:hrpc@irtf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/hrpc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>

--
Niels ten Oever
Researcher and PhD Candidate
DATACTIVE Research Group
University of Amsterdam

PGP fingerprint=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0643A 0= ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3

_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc


--
Mall= ory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg finger= print :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

--000000000000f0112805a32c4deb-- From nobody Mon Apr 13 08:36:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C24E3A17C7 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:36:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nadps4TFvIWJ for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [193.110.157.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92ECD3A17BF for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491CPn1ngvz1J1; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:35:57 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1586792157; bh=CosfLAYEsThecpMaNsLVvs6r1+ZWgg6M1sMFwRXWw+4=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=CLQwV2VILJ0nuMqRUyhrmOXqBTy3lGyGNR0dgiNaZggwmb5Mt1+E6TTFvBppe9lNs GuEmIU5BWIvp5tAhh/kx2/2bPse7y/t1Z8V6eb+lTdig5oDCQPrqO3evbn3yTuvv6J ACSscqNGdzdaTlhBUJoia62WTPRvGnJB0TuKAH2M= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5RmZwjC0pXw; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:35:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:35:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 452C360009BD; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D1F66B7C; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:35:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Niels ten Oever cc: hrpc@irtf.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <27c5e9d9-7c8a-985e-2fb1-99ccb50af9a7@cs.tcd.ie> <3A5AEC71-74DB-4FDF-B849-F2343959C903@csperkins.org> <20200411114523.GB2429@sources.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] The relevance of RFCs // was: Possible options for a HRPC research publication X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:36:04 -0000 On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, Niels ten Oever wrote: > In discussions here and on other mailinglists, some have criticized the format of I-D and RFCs, the workings of the datatracker, the slightly archaic nature of mailinglists and other tools that we use. I, however, would like to shortly note how important I-D's, RFC's, mailinglists, and the datatracker have been in my research, my involvement in this field, and how extraordinary it is that it is possible to find documents, notes, and presentations going back to 1969. While there is indeed a learning curve, the reward for traveling that curve is access to a huge wealth of highly consistent information in a very structured archive. Indeed! It is a very useful thing to have, although it would be nice to get an easier overview or browing capability per WG. Navigating through a few years of meetings link for a WG can be tedious. > In many different kinds of organizations it is hardly possible to find documents from just a few years back, let alone finding them in the same format and context. This is true for NGOs, universities, private corporations, governance bodies, and sadly also governments. I'm glad to see IETF is doing well compared to others here. > Furthermore, RFC's for me embody a relational understanding of infrastructure that combines hardware, software, and wetware, or in the vernacular of another field: technological materiality, institutional ordering, economic drivers, and epistemic communities. For me, this is an important argument to keep on using RFCs and I-Ds (and by extension also mailinglists and the datatrackers), to keep this practice alive, by testing and expanding it with new, and sometimes relevant, contributions. I ran into this myself when evaluating WireGuard. There is basically an ever changing implementation with no history, no static reference, a "whitepaper" that is not a specification, and an ever changing implementation that is the only reference on how parts of the protocol are supposed to work. It is the antithesis of protocol development. Paul