From nobody Thu Jul 2 17:24:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84BCA3A0B66; Thu, 2 Jul 2020 17:21:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: irtf-chair@irtf.org, hrpc@irtf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.7.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159373570252.29538.8978388806218830705@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:21:42 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] hrpc - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 108 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:21:53 -0000 Dear Mallory Knodel, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. hrpc Session 1 (1:40 requested) Tuesday, 28 July 2020, Session III 1410-1550 Room Name: Room 2 size: 2 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/sessions/hrpc.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Area Name: IRTF Session Requester: Mallory Knodel Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 100 Minutes Number of Attendees: 50 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: dprive gaia irtfopen pearg Technology Overlap: mls regext Key Participant Conflict: capport dnsop People who must be present: Avri Doria Mallory Knodel Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Jul 6 11:17:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 519A93A077D for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 11:17:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id izmvYdOBaRL8 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 11:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay8-d.mail.gandi.net (relay8-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D11793A0769 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 11:17:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 212.76.239.56 Received: from [192.168.0.233] (cable-212.76.239.56.coditel.net [212.76.239.56]) (Authenticated sender: amelia@andersdotter.cc) by relay8-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BFA41BF205; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 18:17:29 +0000 (UTC) Reply-To: amelia.ietf@andersdotter.cc To: "tm-rid@ietf.org" , Hrpc From: Amelia Andersdotter Message-ID: <1bebf5b1-1fa5-6902-5bb7-9ec3582e6d9a@andersdotter.cc> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 20:15:42 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Review of draft-drip-arch-02 w.r.t. RFC6973, RFC8280 and other X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:17:36 -0000 Dear all, Having recently read Jane Jacob's Nature of Economies, I was inspired to write this review in the form of a platonic dialogue. It's based on my personal, professional judgement and RFC6973 as well as RFC8280, and the discussants will indicate which source materials are referenced when appropriate. I'm hoping this will also make the review a bit lighter than the human rights reviews based on RFC8280 that I produced back in 2018, as well as remove ambiguities w.r.t. the obligations to take any of these notes into account in further drafting. Scene I. The Scholar and the Apprentice are on a journey to the capital. - In some European languages, there is no language-inherent ways to express the difference between safety and security, said the Scholar. In some Scandinavian languages, for instance, the closest translation of "safety" rather brings the mind to a state of personal comfort. It is easy to get lost in translation when operating in fields that rely a lot on the distinction. - Oh, you mean that restrictions in the source language might make localization [RFC8280, 6.2.12] as well as internationalization [RFC8280, 6.2.5] more difficult? said the Apprentice. - Indeed, and also accessibility [RFC8280, 6.2.11] and outcome transparency [RFC8280, 6.2.19], the Scholar replied. It concerns not only the direct encoding of an issue into an alphabet, abugida or abjad that is in use in a place, but also the concepts given voice in target communities. - In a heavily regulated field, such as airspace, there must be many pitfalls, mused the Apprentice. I had actually already reflected along these lines, perhaps since I myself speak such a language natively, when reading [draft-drip-arch-02, 3.1.2]. The public internet DNS hierarchy relies a lot on a single jurisdiction for guaranteeing, ultimately, integrity [RFC8280, 6.2.16], authenticity [RFC8280, 6.2.17] and confidentiality [RFC8280, 6.2.15] - so at least with safety features such as DNSSEC, the trustworthiness of which intrinsically relies on a process dependent on the entry visas into a single jurisdiction. Was this the type of ambiguity you wanted to avoid? - Ah, security features, safety features, and trade-offs, especially with privacy [RFC6973, 7.4] - and it doesn't even obviously map to any of the requirements in [draft-drip-reqs-02] where the only guidance contained in [draft-drip-reqs-02, 4.4] concerns the public nature of the registry itself, said the Scholar. They're barely touched upon, but within the understanding that safety and security must be different and perceived differently. Does control over an airspace identifier or the ability to provision it imply control over an airspace as such [RFC8280 6.2.6]? And who may have preferences in these matters? And why? - Indeed, continues the Scholar. It is advisable to steer clear of such waters, and maybe this ontological ambiguity is not the only troubled stream. Many endeavours exist, like DiNS in France (AFNIC) or SHG in Canada (CIRA), which rather than building DNS-based technology registries into the global internet architecture, build them in parallel using the same open standards [RFC8280 6.2.7]. But this is optional in [draft-drip-arch-02, 3.1.2], even receommended against! And a similar recommendation occurs in [draft-drip-arch-02, 3.2.2] - why not leave the door more open to private registries? [draft-drip-arch-02, 7] would have us think that architectural implications mostly impact the content of the identifiers in [draft-drip-arch-02, 4]. Indeed, even [draft-drip-arch-02, 4] would have us think that the ASTM requirements mostly relate to ID bit sizes and the special adaptions required to fit what must be fit in a constrained space.  [draft-drip-arch-02, 6] even leads our thoughts down this path! Although I'll have to return to the subject of  [draft-drip-arch-02, 6] later... - Size matters, said the Apprentice cheerfully. And maps unspokedly to [draft-drip-reqs-01, 4.2 ID-1]. The two stood in silence for a few moments as the wind picked up. - While it's true that centralization sometimes suffers an unnecessarily bad name, continued the Scholar, it is equally true that decentralization [RFC8280, 6.2.13] affords a certain adaptability [RFC8280, 6.2.18]. Was there not a private registry in figure 1 of section 1 Introduction anyway? - What is it that you normally say? said the Apprentice, grasping for a words. - Every country needs a flag, an anthem and airline, said the Scholar. But the figure, the figure. - I have it here, said the Apprentice. There is a private registry. It's also in [draft-drip-reqs-01, 4.4 REG-2]. I did not easily see the connection at first, but it is there. And then there is the... - Yes? said the Scholar. - Well, said the Apprentice. Why is there an illustration of Net-RID in figure 2, but not of Broadcast RID? I could not work it out. It actually did not seem sensible to me to re-iterate from [draft-drip-reqs-02] the RID classifications from ASTM [F3411-19] at all. - Maybe it was included for extra clarity? said the Scholar. Personally, I found myself objecting more strongly to the second paragraph of the Introduction - it does not seem to me an architectural issue that "many considerations" dictate anything in particular, nor do I see the need to clarify that "CAAs worldwide" without further qualification request some thing. Maybe it could be removed. Similarly, I did not immediately see the usefulness of speculating on the work of other SDOs, such as 3GPP. - "Network and Broadcast RIDs are expected to be similarly constrained irrespective of the methods used to transmit them"? said the Apprentice. - Your rephrasing makes it more digestible, indeed, responded the Scholar. I suppose in either case it counts as an example of upholding heterogeneity [RFC8280, 6.2.8]. - And I was worried about some aspects of [draft-drip-arch-02, 7] too, said the Apprentice. Like whether the UAS registration number and the unique physical serial numbers are both permanent, or whether they could be transiently linkable as suggested in [draft-drip-arch-02, 5]? - Who knows? said the Scholar. In the capital, they may have better knowledge on these topics. As far as I have understood the architectural descriptions of U-space, federation, modularity and privacy are sought after features in any ID carrying scheme for UAS under EASA regulations and indeed the broader corpus of EU regulations - whether it be GOF or SAFIR or something else. It even seems to me that these are topics better left for a requirements document and not an architecture document! - It was already said, said the Apprentice. Hold on, I have the e-mail here somewhere... - To the point, said the Scholar. It remains to be seen if any submodule of the short-listed U-Space architecture, such as the FIMS, is equally under assumptions of federation, modularity and privacy as the entirety of the architecture. Some internet standards would appear to have a big advantage if these federation requirements apply to sub-modules such as the FIMS too. [draft-drip-arch-02, 7] does not yet resolve it, and maybe even can't. The [draft-drip-reqs-01, 4] does a good job of laying down requirements on identifiers to be transmitted. - What I did miss too, said the Scholar, was the more direct references to the benefits of using this system in terms of data, persistence of identifiers and control over information sharing. What if the registration number were transient [RFC6973, 7.1, RFC8280 6.2.10]? We see the effort to reduce the risk of mis-attributions and intrusions [RFC6973, 7.3], yes [draft-drip-arch-02, 4 and 5]. But the architecture makes no mention of data minimization [RFC6973, 7.1, RFC8280 6.2.2, 6.2.9] - and it could otherwise be seen as quite natural to have a regulatory mandated minimum set of data provided, with options for additional data provision should the user so prefer [RFC6973, 7.2]? Maybe some cross-referencing to the [draft-drip-reqs-01 4] requirements would facilitate understanding the motivation for the choices made. - How would such additional bits be included [RFC8280, 6.2.3]? asks the Apprentice, but the Scholar is already off into their own rabbit hole. - One wonders, says the Scholar, in the end, if there are lessons to be learned from the LPWAN or IPWAVE. And one wonders, if [draft-drip-arch-02, 6] adds anything, really. The second paragraph of [draft-drip-arch-02, 6] should surely be in [draft-drip-arch-02, 1] if it were a high-level architectural point. I think I'd prefer such a change. - One wonders if it is the identifier message as such, or the method for its provisioning [RFC8280, 6.2.1], which is the primary subject matter of this architecture, the Apprentice chimes in. - One wonders, says the Scholar, what the specific connections are between the requirements in the requirements document and the specific proposed approaches in [draft-drip-arch-02, 3]. The two walk off into the field, ready to reflect on other drafts, identifiers and checklists. End Scene I. From nobody Mon Jul 6 11:57:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289893A0971 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 11:57:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6OB9nCeOYfjZ for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 11:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 258D03A09B8 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 11:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.42.112] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B0vvN1Zjrzykf; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 20:57:20 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1bebf5b1-1fa5-6902-5bb7-9ec3582e6d9a@andersdotter.cc> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 20:57:18 +0200 Cc: "tm-rid@ietf.org" , Hrpc X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 615754638.780804-8d0772aad4533cb8cf544d3532d166e1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2990FBF0-FCB0-49CE-8F4B-BF5111CE5D57@tzi.org> References: <1bebf5b1-1fa5-6902-5bb7-9ec3582e6d9a@andersdotter.cc> To: amelia.ietf@andersdotter.cc X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] [Tm-rid] Review of draft-drip-arch-02 w.r.t. RFC6973, RFC8280 and other X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:57:25 -0000 On 2020-07-06, at 20:15, Amelia Andersdotter = wrote: >=20 > - In some European languages, there is no language-inherent ways to > express the difference between safety and security, said the Scholar. = In > some Scandinavian languages, for instance, the closest translation of > "safety" rather brings the mind to a state of personal comfort. It is > easy to get lost in translation when operating in fields that rely a = lot > on the distinction. Indeed. E.g., in German, both are called =E2=80=9CSicherheit=E2=80=9D. In practice, we help ourselves by simply using the English terms when we = need a more selective term. If we are ever forced to actually speak = German, we invent compound terms such as =E2=80=9CAngriffssicherheit=E2=80= =9D (Security) and =E2=80=9CBetriebssicherheit=E2=80=9D (Safety). The = difference is presence or absence of the human mind to effect the = degradation of freedom from dangers. (Of course, the terms are not used = as selectively in practice in English either, e.g., =E2=80=9Csocial = security=E2=80=9D is mostly about safety.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Jul 15 08:46:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0CF93A0949 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 08:46:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 599dPf6dUWjA for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 08:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf35.google.com (mail-qv1-xf35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7ADDE3A094F for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 08:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf35.google.com with SMTP id di5so1075441qvb.11 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 08:46:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=+blqApwmuwbOLd4PXhC0wEhs2jWB+JXM3e03c4ByEhs=; b=OCUFZotXNMjPpqf+n6RsGve1OYTVw/2jMniKIep3CZuaEpZpVwoI4wFeIBa27rsyJr r7fbtYpKVRMAmul0Cl+vhMTGznJjECZSaE7KW2miEJsiQCm170JDWGEW7Dgj69orD9G+ UvzKd/Aj1ip6Dj0ES7Rc0nfXG5LWGoDHGzlBA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=+blqApwmuwbOLd4PXhC0wEhs2jWB+JXM3e03c4ByEhs=; b=gXV3VVhAwmTKrEufUQ4Ma6o1/wWGeA5yEhqaOxJsRdZgd5Wmdg7rly1bnki1OQJ6UY hiJy2LZju2Ig1JqEn0zX6bTPmMrkYbhBga/9QhnFI2O+PCjaPELBhu/bxvNJQpVp16V7 uDM9QyjFJFT7vNUuw3RmPVkZLRjNJwpTmZOgZhC+k7njhENDwqsij12T5i0fz3fPLG0k rgTcf/+10wome3pIRUCQY08I74jCKw/lQHoFpbS9x4H4DRgov8D5cyzb2JjEAsu2M+TF xJeeKHGZi4knQdRq6Swxa7SGY3X5+ke73jui+Rvi8IXkFDC+rM7Yra931OTJDWGWJkHO x5mw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530jXTsIkI7+VUEbBBb1HD5OrrrIF+qXbZGynk3X2B53Ib2gWXvN afkXA+So9j8kUG3tBQLxquXufE7kXik= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw4nVBBfGj6CAJbCYXguexrU6WOXEUnZiZmALQ36NBICnFGKDTiurRhXxgzvMR9rcRl9C1ZCw== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4b6d:: with SMTP id m13mr10420484qvx.33.1594827980096; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 08:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mallorys-MacBook-Air.local (c-73-163-188-207.hsd1.dc.comcast.net. [73.163.188.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k197sm2986722qke.133.2020.07.15.08.46.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Jul 2020 08:46:19 -0700 (PDT) To: IETF Secretariat , hrpc-chairs@ietf.org Cc: irtf-chair@irtf.org, hrpc@irtf.org References: <159373570252.29538.8978388806218830705@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Mallory Knodel Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 11:46:18 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <159373570252.29538.8978388806218830705@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] hrpc - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 108 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 15:46:24 -0000 Hi all, Please find the draft agenda uploaded in the datatracker: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-108-hrpc/ Edits will happen. Please let me know if you'd like me to make some, -Mallory On 7/2/20 8:21 PM, "IETF Secretariat" wrote: > Dear Mallory Knodel, > > The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. > Below is the scheduled session information followed by > the original request. > > > hrpc Session 1 (1:40 requested) > Tuesday, 28 July 2020, Session III 1410-1550 > Room Name: Room 2 size: 2 > --------------------------------------------- > > > iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/sessions/hrpc.ics > > Request Information: > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Working Group Name: Human Rights Protocol Considerations > Area Name: IRTF > Session Requester: Mallory Knodel > > > Number of Sessions: 1 > Length of Session(s): 100 Minutes > Number of Attendees: 50 > Conflicts to Avoid: > Chair Conflict: dprive gaia irtfopen pearg > Technology Overlap: mls regext > Key Participant Conflict: capport dnsop > > > > > > People who must be present: > Avri Doria > Mallory Knodel > > Resources Requested: > > Special Requests: > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Fri Jul 17 06:59:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73CE43A09BB for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 06:59:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XNtgGgqpSf-i for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 06:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F197B3A0855 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 06:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id e13so8797680qkg.5 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 06:59:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=Jfdcpu3P/Ay8jLewMPdPoqfb7I/WTvzjOqo6B/qIEAQ=; b=IRKKA3XUP3EgGHSwloNwKNH99xBZN1Juq8yB8E3dYfC3utI0BY19+/8xNszjExGb41 +9sLwAjpfxgzTa/0h3wC8FHhgMLO/xdff4zsw983+iPiei56+dCXnTaXk81Z0JMHgfhI 1vxfb6YI+8Yn9Pfhf496pF2APCB9/zw+BdgBg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=Jfdcpu3P/Ay8jLewMPdPoqfb7I/WTvzjOqo6B/qIEAQ=; b=KCmI4xufOQlYC60k15DlyUcG1d7E3T6IDpliy6wM7Uwz2WgoCZfRxs6Dk6ccMvFKf1 36KjMtkDgwRc5E7KYQPfoWnhvrrKVU+v4ahXvWZkEMEq1KNPHLKIu4qixRuefoHwrCmz JrhpLcxfhUWlcMGO7w7m1ofBD0MsEPPSAiU64t5zwtEIUv0ceJno9NGgag8iQfLxfcuj qm8XKL9KHyA+A1PWjKWvAVJlz2+MjIFpLWBbiYBgLXPXIKUfwernr5h+59MrEG2uuVn3 jbUNDGLUmAqSfq8tmq7jtKlw7AGZIKcWVKSLCeSqpV6jFdtXOzzSFo/CgXLxao9jJiXD zEkA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532nLnlppbSzQCOR0+l1yLZGHhZMp7IeuBPOr10ZMx5s5jpdbkA+ lFBnOG5T1SurS1jdvwaL073zSTb2Vjg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJypL07m8Zg5PvXuPPoKkFhMwqLpMnDuV9WZuAItDXYeTkelqCRVbpBobMOLGy8QhFA7qW3e/Q== X-Received: by 2002:a37:4d90:: with SMTP id a138mr8331794qkb.363.1594994388749; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 06:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mallorys-MacBook-Air.local (c-73-163-188-207.hsd1.dc.comcast.net. [73.163.188.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m20sm9244283qkk.104.2020.07.17.06.59.48 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2020 06:59:48 -0700 (PDT) To: Hrpc From: Mallory Knodel Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:59:47 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:79.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/79.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Report from UN SR on racism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 13:59:52 -0000 Hi all, In a report just released by the UN, the Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance, E. Tendayi Achiume, she says on page 2: > "The public perception of technology tends to be that it is inherently > neutral and objective. But technology is never neutral – it reflects > the values and interests of those who influence its design and use, > and is fundamentally shaped by the same structures of inequality that > operate in society." > You can read the rest of the report: https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Racism/SR/HCR44_Statement_15_July_2020.pdf Highly relevant for draft-political. -Mallory -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Fri Jul 17 16:40:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6A73A0B67 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 16:40:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WYsI_AE4GK1x for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 16:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic306-3.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic306-3.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.132.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEB5E3A0B65 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 16:40:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1595029209; bh=uhJFJ/UEQYWGrTDWiPjjjIHT4DZ8Vd5tvZPajfsakpE=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=JsxNIrYp3QoVUfFun9sUatkQk7bz1M5zPTfeAnQtpC5Ek/1+KOw/iYLgZj+tHUJ7edJrJpPRcGCfxp++u6+mcnfCdB50SCCU1jmGY25gbAPtMpJ7f0gAhKbBn+hn4mAc2QDbAobgPWwRnOE0YGKOGCck0Jn7ShVkxFO9cLzNiIXf+z2W9Hsh2xeyRTIbrXLZeDlwJGyi+x6dEqbkAmbnhk6Hejn7w1g+ZP/Eosn+Bc8Iufga0O1PrBP9dHlgE43YhMG/MJ022KCQl947XhucwlgAeyV/UBmoPbLgtF5i0L5US7iCM0aAGLLaTs7foG4CUwy13xVF0yYFsMlbWgPVWQ== X-YMail-OSG: lNj6BvkVM1nzYirCs5zsrGLJVnbffiAH8oDx4RMLJpMausBQKRb0TYBDSfvHhmg UL60ae96L7vP7M04_qin4ymNzdoqjGVY3IfehpGkCgGfHOXr5C2G12AyKjCsrr1FWIDedlomL74S yseLgK06xMrKBH16h3bV01LGf6fof.wVJUv6VvNFAkNzHyjTSt1h8vDdXn6lANTD1k1zNdN3Ejfs NHqrGch_p2N4BXo8x84E039e1T2R.d7g_xN_WQTMV.9Opl63Vw4S3640bzv7wKVJaVeKlHCAEnWc bj.TqmEyrvNN3y1VMitJguC9VRURhHetoPDuTrildJFeHXYmyvtA3hpEP9pJr_zsC_Fi_6G8AY.. 8SJ5oK_qwQTcp3dIYvl8jJOhn_9eziBHvawjcaT7sBA6Enbblx3tpeYRaaJp_gTJSfnohdr4s8UP QVaYDs.Kp15T3U9ax_KS6aSUF3SI9h4aDHKpFD5sVcZYV8nEjBZK8ZaqmEh8f..bePi8yQaSaepU wnja0Nyt7irotTuD1v40BcRlvcPgzjMqMKnAo7_qbyvsuCoyHt5cSYMc0xy9Pxjo6dPkjj6W5ABz zm4nvGMH05MOitL0mDjujOeRCeHla4oZPOyQ..zav54eWiUwT4hhd7fmP5lG57hG42YwaEwiRjKn xvg3aTh1iM_tM1HxvcfOWYBO589euy2VVoLLzw6NHMradsus4YSYT24KZTRXDl5oj_B52nKHbLsq TeKk7YASAPEfOqoqgbyUzoVshIByDE5s3BGNkp3CLLfAlsEHAtl4fjdfR3fARqWvaHQigCph1.Ai QuATLCiF9keB03cneeI2J.gybUzOyIRI87Q1.RBJhrJowdxrl.nOfkWibnYRKCABmdC0fqe8dJta 3byM0YpA_r.hSjHWTfOy2yradorwmtZ5HAncEpLDcHtyOHGst0G4KwobNYncJUNY96QRcNjy0tiX 6.rz4yBbe222ZKVB05cRxqI9ky0YEqxgAhcA.9FjOeV1.rvvzC9sSfn3G7I8sc0fgfPvLKKJipQg tDQVB51nTNhDvPyeoqPnW054vmHKgfjCtQT1cjI9sf2675EY4hv7IcM9GtNjzgxUZ8QvoQfvwBjw EAH_lysrPPBoR7x70JvT_pXM78i_3M_MMU29LDuUroMkkHe2uHcUmgJutDAVzHTjz9ZNjH18yYg. Vs.X.wN9H6eXg_CMMN2lGskiyHBJQUZqGJazQKiluGWHe7MBXPWfUYofz5tyoW_6FHrM.R5JR47. cMRQhnYQQpon0ZGq_VN7AgmybTuAEK9Jgfn1iHk0ulvayH2ftFGega3XjlbL7WCj5pyJbSneYFh9 c2ftpkY3Jf7SI4cFvn1VIE4GCIo3ZcOrfS2RhL4e_NpNAO.sZlpxJW29IrvAv_eFAPmIbfZwssRN OIqP90LkwCSa0eILPq9lqnFGeKU3yOhRydGEPPYowQDZK9Q8O.xs- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 23:40:09 +0000 Received: by smtp417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 53e10c7910ce903303e4755fda6a1947; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 23:40:06 +0000 (UTC) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: From: Mark Perkins Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 10:39:59 +1100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: fr X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200717-4, 18/07/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16271 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Report from UN SR on racism X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 23:40:12 -0000 The report is available in English ((Advance Edited Version) A/HRC/44/57 Racial discrimination and emerging digital technologies: a human rights analysis – Report of the Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/RegularSessions/Session44/Documents/A_HRC_44_57_AdvanceEditedVersion.docx Mark P Le 18/07/2020 à 00:59, Mallory Knodel a écrit : > Hi all, > > In a report just released by the UN, the Special Rapporteur on > contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and > related intolerance, E. Tendayi Achiume, she says on page 2: > >> "The public perception of technology tends to be that it is >> inherently neutral and objective. But technology is never neutral – >> it reflects the values and interests of those who influence its >> design and use, and is fundamentally shaped by the same structures of >> inequality that operate in society." >> > You can read the rest of the report: > https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Racism/SR/HCR44_Statement_15_July_2020.pdf > > Highly relevant for draft-political. > > -Mallory > -- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From nobody Sat Jul 25 22:28:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E083A0B1A for ; Sat, 25 Jul 2020 22:28:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Review on feminism draft X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 05:28:37 -0000 Dear, hrpc, Thanks so much for all the work on it! I did an small review of the 'draft-feminism', and send a small pull request for some minor grammar changes: https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/drafts/pull/19 I opened an issue, as well, on categories that can be introduced and explained at the 'Online Violence' section: https://github.com/IRTF-HRPC/drafts/issues/20 I'm happy to provide a definition for all of them and how they intersect with the IETF work. Thanks! -- Sofía Celi @claucece http://claucece.github.io/ Cryptographic research and implementation at many places, but manly Cloudflare FAB9 3EDC 7CDD 1198 DCFD  4558 91BB 6B45 6F44 2D02 From nobody Sun Jul 26 00:49:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA493A0C16 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:49:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=riseup.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KxW0K2yUqcRB for ; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Review on feminism draft X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 07:49:42 -0000 Dear, hrpc, Related: this two papers might be worth checking out also: * Privacy threats in intimate relationships: https://academic.oup.com/cybersecurity/article/6/1/tyaa006/5849222 * Safe at Home: Towards a Feminist Critique of Cybersecurity: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3429851 Thanks! -- Sofía Celi @claucece http://claucece.github.io/ Cryptographic research and implementation at many places, but manly Cloudflare FAB9 3EDC 7CDD 1198 DCFD  4558 91BB 6B45 6F44 2D02 From nobody Tue Jul 28 00:31:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22703A0D45 for ; 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Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:31:50 +0200 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cis-india.org 46F5A58E48013 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cis-india.org; s=6F901CFA-19A8-11E9-98F1-CB07954443DB; t=1595921509; bh=Ar/iwydJW5FYq3SuiGeIVmQDVGesLlAgNK/2F3AGv/A=; h=To:From:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version; b=kSWW0lEbQOnQHMNKTFhCQNv+OfkKgM2jpFBdaVRyC4uCvKzrPB9WEstZrA8E6sifk SKQgN0gcHlT21gRDQxFnAfXBaL8282Bmma3/W2rZaYTGLQsbnfHvKbr7HPqVhIJruY jf1rurnuy5Q3bbJx21stncvtcbV9cBGkaBkMQVMC/wa6OjKNhreUltQ+j7RCY8dtI/ IgIYLvssynEKCbR8j9JCFTnWsOC6b6VwZWvMEWWWfGkhJtFtwecXVdMtHzLyFYTAvU YlvRftdPwHFCZdW18WPboCVIEajWIPdH0vFf1QUvu1mZrQMvVe5es0hcy7gVsWcfN0 85EhMtoqrZeOA== To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Gurshabad Grover Autocrypt: addr=gurshabad@cis-india.org; keydata= xsFNBFriroIBEADfyDpCD8eborMUMXKtZzjo4t2KzrAlUVYgE/TFtrwUP+4Xw4dzakDIzST8 sVYmlXIWhM5NBBTZSQ190vsxrkbi0xxLcXYM2olZEtqkJ8zONZeZLBeGvcfMymtHqD4jHwYb Zm7OXnS45fWDL+HOoMP/VCwEn098rYfnllIkYQD1Gc28Ig+ywjGg8y5p0qMmmmhm2ckgLjnG MJX8t273MSc8wsn/UYH922yif3MQXmrzqgnRl9hRzf90SKqAw38bw7wccb55pIItloKYsi0r zYBKJSOPXn91Z21TpOSTy21M0MZYEAlDn1zeea+q8TggfHNWxOXoKrIm1pqZFRz0k+8i2siJ AHf8bRm/fhukA6szZ6b2nNPxjkAmOv9zvGu6RZGbmeLvQYVBSSnZ67ayZrkKwn7KIyAV6hQM /bVnD8eEZ2tZ0S8lxoZFYSNeMGt2b6WelFZO97/LbjxaJUHd9K8g5H0MwqN1NXoBxRwllVRC 3sVHVoWTBqnKo8qplzvQEAto69PpvuxxKTOFEJeQqmn1b/fo3sLRb4YiIg8Ax+Np7Huzzjk6 vKKgpIwIN7yEUj/ReWi/UA/W4wSg3XkcqTf7h73crnN/1At0PdgozbDV2UbcApaldStP4DfG UiQl0/7MiYLKapDDuSahmoeH3xrNnrzS9BAfuGHezzDbMyPLXQARAQABzSpHdXJzaGFiYWQg R3JvdmVyIDxndXJzaGFiYWRAY2lzLWluZGlhLm9yZz7CwX0EEwEIACcFAlriroICGyMFCQlm AYAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQrbl/X+ubfC7/bQ//YQv7zqQE433xxsN/ 3GYKoOFccBy3WvV4DxrTskJ3n3k5lfcZolbc8TQksQOTzyerNt2ZA7fsGZa7eFSW+xR4Yq3/ C9o+5FOoHGhyZhb+x17MILhmyvyUNSj7SdKrRISgurMbV2Vv8LxmTcdrK6CdFF6JLH+opzU1 NlRKwZqROPgbYZEB2QFIUbGfgh2I5AXNyV2XbT7fagfkHk+v9AUV7POP2H1+AZ1xq6iFTm2o 9ufNZsp2bInsDohcVBKC3aH2cnFMjvIXpNoUOx8vb5A2xW0aBUTTJDB/uZw53WOg3kehrCNb ZkML3FnDZLRuu1e8DSWmwk5YIoDzt5bMCgfUwb0C6Q+JuM8lC+8CEEa9qamLc+fhvFAzcrWp VWuSaVeLdhe5NxmtlRYNZdGuKy6sRHjwsEWlwzRylhm74fiDR3aA1eIFsfmYLd4z+i1Fp23Y dHJf7/Gor2CmOxphog9DEA9WCuORXfx4De7hoMKwW4gWKw1A8B12Cv4EOkXmCsWsOnfDEarr 2Yl6elxkhQRfKjAesXb0cezRzZgwsWIsbeYsuWFF7Xi6IzUJ27lxU3p5PcyY8O8aDYOn+pu0 YFJ7s3u2VRRgptVZJmkcN3WTApXSHY8fGl5xAakM/bqFJj9uj5zlMnFN2EplC6/mQkfYfy2f siaGTP/GQV4OSuOeuMLOwU0EWuKuggEQAJ4lAzB72gHw4+rbyxmQNNVmvgYVZPjFtO/MQdYi x1QwRP/gxxqPqTd/ZwQvmPGzXRKw10B7uKSRk6YP12+IG0mXJwHGp9q5CWJE0XNGqX3UWbAc KIzxqPNpsf8e6Bv7jdW0YwLBxJ+RW0NNL6uAxz0sr2frbnS+EZB3cU+zOZzp/9YfTUZO2lxF NzgJoErKe/HLp7aBeJXBBcwO0LQlIT80rTZx2KihBa/Ww/y9E9gV/HacJu/Ncb6E/G3e4xGj 9w9L+UW43q01wy+FSUKy9FLc7D40WqQsj8SXZEpl84SyLcJRoX3mtj59bX2SAN2VB2BAksTu qCh00IcIUGfyHziu5PwUWYM96gOhDSocP4wSeiQ8TwLzaffllz2qhdI296a9lCIYIeWVytEd NU9jJ3RbzXAgE0pnDauNXDaQv1FS5jYi8rlslJUxKnrS69BFNjM5RqQ16Cm0C4rKL7/a8wHC r4VjcjSCM8Lzv8YOOitJ9Yt4Y8SVfO5s3YvxcdSr56nX0W3B1kGbG1GpqWTzOgXzGF5bIsbV 7SPecwUs9ShvmLmZzDUxIQ68n4zj3lMZn5I+pP+Ew6nAAiuSmKdr5cygnCH/NVJzil07t+X4 uR6oKHBhuMFYF1c6Wxk36m+EZz5ZHFaT4rN0WDIJdAEqRzD0Z56V6ansDF8y+ksh0SHlABEB AAHCwWUEGAEIAA8FAlriroICGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQrbl/X+ubfC50rhAAloTaq/fZC1gtiVtU wOB+00gEkjgmzt+rLkW+l2EySTST7tje57W83UZwzCX746B2O//Bqardxz9R1Vr0VFiwHA8g 3qeBqPqiv1WoQch/iZ5d/1MxK4A9xDag1uyqLR8RuGlZ8lATmcP3IabKiuiBV4MlFZ7V2Ib6 5ToPf28xxSyjMzTjQObIG0e009uHlu2z+iQVshLyoyVVAOWWa88D6iuBDC/EtBRjlpjLAjuR YhWVYX6KHdVUijKMHN2RqjpX5O2wPL7NcMY/wsTq7EteUeI75hxFvargRXkEt1XR8t52LC0u IE2OjpzY5re/ROUbfsqL8trjAOrSJ+Fx5H8AYl9JaoVxohhxDZgNtgNtPbh/8Nnlf9daj/bh lZcTBO98XLQwMnyHGPdyhIodpWPq2C09Ys3TkQsbcdMMB1pqnEK5Vz1zIKkEEX7QVsLdrz7C 2CFsauc/9PHj+4njCHslXtzBOiVu5FXTnbCwPrLJs5iEUkUCb6qtE/2mSCTrAanzOTTOmqiM cnNTI1Tj0ht462S9VypppQnKCv8shGxXG7BadZTv+pNCA/WfB2kk1sS3ZwB0wBWX4p41fxs+ ArM9ew2SzQ/vBrEfO7ljPfZZmBqH4t/vgAZBnOtTxCGlPEIJqiMqtGHRqIqpiR20QfxEUuXI MfMfa9QJpisdNmqoUyc= Message-ID: <02c84f4c-21fb-0754-3090-6dc8e9fd9e59@cis-india.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 13:01:42 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a8ecdd0179e5342c74548fafd5461917 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Discussion on draft-guidelines today X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 07:31:56 -0000 Hello. First, my apologies that draft-guidelines hasn't been updated after the last meeting. This is just a brief note before we have today's meeting. The next update to the draft will bring the promised changes: explanations to the guidelines where currently none exist (2-3 places), and a discussion of attribution vs. anonymity. The latter will flow from the issues John Curran raised on this list. The need to address this is even more relevant now because of the recent 'traceability' discussions in India and Brazil. We have not received additional inputs on the draft in a while. More feedback is always welcome, of course. For today's meeting, may be we can bring back a question we discussed briefly in the last meeting: what does everyone see as the path for draft-guidelines? Should we move to RG last call if we have no other additions to make? Appreciate any inputs on this from the RG. Looking forward to the meeting today. Thank you. -Gurshabad From nobody Tue Jul 28 04:08:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639F43A0AE4 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:08:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ThOwcLA7FlyR for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F4203A0AE5 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id x69so18212548qkb.1 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:08:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=fvFJpftMDbJdVzVURBExSnhLNr6XPz59NppFwq0x72o=; b=aJyvrkJhFeVeW0nG4s8DEN5cJWfW8cugz9SoshVKMDPdZ06stPNb9NchdFHupjv/2V qhlP/tcIcuPn1gvSec5YP01nBDwrwYW4xRbYesNJK8JJrWiNTb9a5g+oHqzPBYyGM1H4 MN9C4NNbR01/HVwazfMVQ06DYwlubr44yaiC4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=fvFJpftMDbJdVzVURBExSnhLNr6XPz59NppFwq0x72o=; b=JjKyig3XEJGfOWn1dBrOcO9jn2TFuznrSZU2VV3wI082CxuGu7FXTgJ7lXS06Xe6+f roGcP0aLEX/JODsWKnQJRdPafUiWXiM0OdHHeSk/m0xASFyxy5Ub2t/dj6/2921c97EM F1IOWNmTsa9f/HOrBm76tw24XOLuuHsdI0JrdQOiII1pdEN5W+F8h59qUhriItuqHjXA PWMj5tSJmecotTdU0HpLzvu0Rv3xkHaVG20HMAJugiZqOBb4XMITDiNiJhgkGD8uG0Ll gb2Xy8yyMIXieUsNK/2kHPgBmlpfVSEyNokQmOefmDwYUBEmFl0Dg8Ifck0tNxB1dlPJ /6FA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532c2Qo+yBHwtbOxx3tIctzdF8fjmgcU2tj2VBKH2R7VrOmcMeD6 C3mLRDHQmEMO5OPpYqZoJmfj9KROz/M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzaPkxgbTgBBzx8O/5hYQaR0TDsympbP/Yx7gE5bNr0zMKzLKNn86xkWYMVdUVllIQuJFywLw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1034:: with SMTP id a20mr22278279qkk.88.1595934521211; Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mallorys-MacBook-Air.local (c-73-163-188-207.hsd1.dc.comcast.net. [73.163.188.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x5sm17702344qtp.76.2020.07.28.04.08.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Jul 2020 04:08:40 -0700 (PDT) To: Gurshabad Grover , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <02c84f4c-21fb-0754-3090-6dc8e9fd9e59@cis-india.org> From: Mallory Knodel Message-ID: <776a4797-c5ef-3ddc-52eb-d1af375012bc@cdt.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 07:08:40 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:79.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/79.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <02c84f4c-21fb-0754-3090-6dc8e9fd9e59@cis-india.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Discussion on draft-guidelines today X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:08:44 -0000 Thanks Gurshabad, Hi everyone, Please everyone if you can ensure you've read the two drafts: association and guidelines, since we have decisions to make about both in today's call. See you soon, -Mallory On 7/28/20 3:31 AM, Gurshabad Grover wrote: > Hello. > > First, my apologies that draft-guidelines hasn't been updated after the > last meeting. This is just a brief note before we have today's meeting. > > The next update to the draft will bring the promised changes: > explanations to the guidelines where currently none exist (2-3 places), > and a discussion of attribution vs. anonymity. The latter will flow from > the issues John Curran raised on this list. The need to address this is > even more relevant now because of the recent 'traceability' discussions > in India and Brazil. > > We have not received additional inputs on the draft in a while. More > feedback is always welcome, of course. For today's meeting, may be we > can bring back a question we discussed briefly in the last meeting: what > does everyone see as the path for draft-guidelines? Should we move to RG > last call if we have no other additions to make? > > Appreciate any inputs on this from the RG. Looking forward to the > meeting today. > > Thank you. > -Gurshabad > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Thu Jul 30 11:36:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4953A0407 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:36:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZDGEuGPjbYw5 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x830.google.com (mail-qt1-x830.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62EB33A0CF2 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x830.google.com with SMTP id c12so12081053qtn.9 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:35:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=mpQd4n7h9OoOowZps0R8zjuVTE1gQlmWhywMi1CWKc4=; b=SxBCqH1Z7zgQc5WRaE+IJPchcdNcKLKNrwl8sMFAsVF8ZyNJnkq7y4Nn/MWNgSYAyd 34R59NCdM317hoc+k+W086wfAxm3pTvEq+CEYz3rco+e7R0RoECVZnG/ugH5pQXkq6F4 ngNO2ESl7bvnI4HmPHkVS4jPK8TEdOFvc/3/E= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=mpQd4n7h9OoOowZps0R8zjuVTE1gQlmWhywMi1CWKc4=; b=NjaIJC7DPMw50BCoEmSKWg24qmKZxteIrYFKdgLYDVHRdELXmsJUw/fYLB1BI8/gU8 PFJKY9ox1PIUiqRGMGOoX5c47CnrLaWv05Robv5hO+4YE9q3yqW0ukekfTyWfYXQCD9W Xh7ucp9ErgnCxivs6NuKVlXYKVQrdYZv33PymRs8l6L7LesPjnhFSc0bQjz6J0mjSb6w pDdiTe/GLT+w/mHsw5MsXj5xD1JcZx3VcfTfyj6NAXLHcTkoIKkLeL/ncmItY/j2Ead5 nf8Xwa53n7EYDqNVuavGWeQpJPSA6SKH6uJBXrigb0GfM0ZLXU1WUshVp6Hz5m+9ALZg ppdQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530WKZQG6Xb0tZOLVFAiqjrC+h6fV4hJMGfs0RDc5vCDbl/VXqwF k07mQAPxDKztEZD1tJdiFDENuLE2ny8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx4hWkIWwFxWyP33EyaZheIG7qB0fe7n2V2L9Bl1r+x9G6ddSZYVyt1gpwevEdrvTGdJJEVhg== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:44d5:: with SMTP id b21mr4366842qto.261.1596134153317; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mallorys-MacBook-Air.local (c-73-163-188-207.hsd1.dc.comcast.net. [73.163.188.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a5sm5360751qtc.44.2020.07.30.11.35.52 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Jul 2020 11:35:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Hrpc From: Mallory Knodel Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:35:52 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:79.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/79.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] IETF 108 minutes X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 18:36:53 -0000 Hi all, I posted draft minutes from Wednesday's meeting: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/minutes/minutes-108-hrpc-02 Please check that your comments were captured correctly, and if not please let me know. Thanks! -Mallory -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Thu Jul 30 14:17:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173183A0D0D for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:17:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zNS5WWgSjX4R for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86D3D3A0CF4 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id f18so26177959wrs.0 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:17:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=0Y/w/qUwU243MBZbceZ+UwFcUoQRc7fWh61wHEcn5MM=; b=cSJl40Jr3UmzuGD51Uw3CJBSPDwLUQoCf0VuIULP+QHf94MDLbxCU7xsSIlESgDnhO BT5QVzrEwRstRRTbQhOWHMQnTfrv6IfEjrvF9BFb3gus0XZM4+Ktngyve0kQOzWn8C9s U4z7GcfhXVH99DpZMxS9V4vqxzJ/sBv5/ir7h7rK/0jCnw50TkPor2UxUb8hfXRKJmiy Eb8idImmPj1divCkvptWwO01VMANnkA6aSHiGH7o0cgPIPaNeCnW8R2lfDUO1mcuM4P4 /AuN1+OpAqJ3OZK7L07LIv0DnE4BqKh1eM+RelubyQ0Z0qgDH1MgbgUWCdaMqNNfx0iO QPRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=0Y/w/qUwU243MBZbceZ+UwFcUoQRc7fWh61wHEcn5MM=; b=Lo3vlxlUfXyfrny7ByQNnaX7cN+Fwv5xFx+Gz/aDEC4/0Ta1ck2HxV8XzzlJx3zZwX qCfqK5gaSE/iU24nJ1mbneSJnPiMJoteX1Jz/o7ciR3AJdUkJsGLYBMm87si7Ax76I20 T8yGItmfqM4R0plKLXkx2fgtvn5SnoDUwKhNM9pXdTKyyv9lWA5ztb3auEQ+EHjqNwN7 q9fAP3p4LU1NWBo/SmF+qJ++CWtc8ZBFkAZJmFE/Qy1+/lEj+1xUev5A8bK/pdh72icT U+FamT541PD6vNAJlnfxKR7aceH+pDpqUtdyeWuak/qcDFl2p/1xMER3aUu1DNGO1g9n 62Ag== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533MJoUsdQsIpUnx6PoMoN4waN7JD0HjLJx5UVkO4ZmTbt5xuoLp RsDpJ2Ai0WVd7cu2nVxJyw+rhfHcOd00CgyUoj3e7g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx1i7IGkflM9W67GjAzIDpj8oKliJ4BsAn4ichby95VN5ojFj9HnjBNF2eAVlhlUNDmN3xoMOhkdSR2lW086AI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:1141:: with SMTP id d1mr566475wrx.229.1596143833422; Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:17:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Shivan Kaul Sahib Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:16:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: Hrpc , draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000033a6b205abaf3215" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Draft guidelines: updates vs obsoletes X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 21:17:23 -0000 --00000000000033a6b205abaf3215 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all, I mentioned in the recent HRPC meeting that I was struggling with how draft-guidelines relates to RFC 8280. After some more thought, I think it would help with my confusion if draft-guidelines was intended to *obsolete* RFC 8280, instead of merely updating it. "Updated version" (from the abstract) sounds like this document will supersede RFC 8280 and can be used *in place of *it (RFC 2223 , section 12). If it is meant to be an actual update i.e. both documents can be used independently, then I would expect the new document to explicitly mention the text/sections that are updated (I like the idea of having a questionnaire in the Appendix of draft-guidelines btw) Thoughts? Shivan --00000000000033a6b205abaf3215 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

I mention= ed in the recent HRPC meeting that I was struggling with how draft-guidelines relates to RFC 8280. After some more thought, I think it would help with = my confusion if draft-guidelines=C2=A0was intended to obsolete RFC 8= 280, instead of merely updating it.=C2=A0

"Updated version"= (from the abstract) sounds like this document will supersede RFC 8280 and = can be used in place of it (RFC 2223, section 12). If it is meant to be an actua= l update i.e. both documents can be used independently, then I would expect= the new document to explicitly mention the text/sections that are updated = (I like the idea of having a questionnaire in the Appendix of draft-guideli= nes btw)

Thoughts?=C2=A0
Shivan=
--00000000000033a6b205abaf3215-- From nobody Fri Jul 31 01:09:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB7D13A107A; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 01:09:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id COoTEs-y-Cj5; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 01:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 809033A1076; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 01:09:07 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,417,1589234400"; d="scan'208,217";a="355685515" Received: from dom38-1-82-236-155-50.fbx.proxad.net (HELO [192.168.0.34]) ([82.236.155.50]) by mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 31 Jul 2020 10:09:05 +0200 From: Vincent Roca Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2B16A7E0-A1AE-4C6B-AC95-1EA9C2D5633F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 10:09:03 +0200 Cc: Vincent Roca To: hrpc@irtf.org, pearg@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Follow-up of Simon McGarr talk on Apps for COVID-19 Tracing: about big tech companies and democracy X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:09:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2B16A7E0-A1AE-4C6B-AC95-1EA9C2D5633F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear all, Following the excellent presentation from Simon on =C2=AB Apps for = COVID-19 Tracing An EU Data Rights View =C2=BB, during HRPC 108 meeting (thank you!), I=E2=80=99d like to share the following record = that so nicely expresses my thoughts, by Shoshana Zuboff. =E2=80=9CShoshana Zuboff meets Margrethe Vestager: A conversation about = a future digital Europe=E2=80=9D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DNOKxAIyPLpo = =E2=80=94 offset: = 30:46 - 35:38 (best effort transcript, not 100% word-by-word) =E2=80=94 =E2=80=9CIn democratic society, public health authorities operate under = the rule of law and they operate under democratic governance. Public = health authorities need to be able to see a large-scale pattern of how = the disease is moving so they can affectively contain it. The erosion of = trust has completely crippled the genuine necessary effort of public = health authority to do their work. The information empire led by Google = and Apple took their unaccountable power without collaboration with = governments, developed their own approach and they gazlighted this = approach. [=E2=80=A6] They create a polemic that says that our app is = the privacy app and what the state is trying to do is to spy on you and = undercut the legitimate need of public health authorities that operate = under democracy, leaving countries like Germany, France, UK just in a = set of intolerable constraints. So here we are: we have allowed this = information empire to own and operate the Internet, to own and operate = the global means of telecommunication, to own and operate the = infrastructure and to own all of the content. This is intolerable and = incompatible with democracy! We have allowed them to drive a wedge = between citizens and their rightful democratic governance. This is also = intolerable. We have allowed them to cloud the fact that privacy and = solidarity are two sides of the same coin. Privacy is not private. = Privacy is public. Privacy and solidarity go together. Without a = society that has social solidarity, there is no rule of law. Without = the rule of law, there is no right to privacy and there are no other = rights. Indeed there are no individuals. These things are nested = together of necessity. We see the tech companies driving a wedge, and we = see our states who have the best of intentions, in many of these = situations, left powerless. This is intolerable! The COVID backdrop is = showing us the road that we should take. That the state has to clean its = own house, the state has to enact the same charters of rights and laws = and institutions to keep itself the state true to democracy and forfeit = the surveillance state=E2=80=A6 and at the same time create those rights = and laws that oversee the market place and outlaw, interrupt and = eliminate surveillance capitalism which is a new form of economical = authoritarianism that has right now hegemonic influence over society.=E2=80= =9D =E2=80=94 I think it nicely summarises the situation we=E2=80=99ve seen in Europe = (don=E2=80=99t know for the rest of the world) and it raises questions=20= that are not far from human rights considerations. And here we are = talking about democratic countries like UK, Germany and France (BTW the only one which resisted the Apple/Google pressure), = with strong democratic and data protection laws, not totalitarian ones. I also CC PEARG since it's closely related to Stephen Farrell's talk on = Monday about those apps, and because privacy=20 considerations are also central. **Disclaimer:** I=E2=80=99m not neutral on this topic since our Inria = PRIVATICS research group designed the ROBERT protocol that is at the core of the French contact tracing app, and the DESIRE = protocol that=E2=80=99s based on a totally different concept (identify encounters rather than endpoints). For us DESIRE is a 3rd way = approach since it enables to go beyond the centralized vs. decentralized duality (i.e., it enables all of this, = seamlessly), with major privacy improvements. https://github.com/ROBERT-proximity-tracing/documents = = https://github.com/3rd-ways-for-EU-exposure-notification/project-DESIRE = Cheers, Vincent ---- Vincent Roca, PhD/HDR, PRIVATICS team leader, Inria research institute, = France https://privatics.inrialpes.fr/people/roca/ = --Apple-Mail=_2B16A7E0-A1AE-4C6B-AC95-1EA9C2D5633F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Dear = all,

Following the excellent presentation = from Simon on =C2=AB Apps for COVID-19 Tracing An EU Data Rights View = =C2=BB, during HRPC 108
meeting (thank = you!), I=E2=80=99d like to share the following record that so = nicely expresses my thoughts, by Shoshana Zuboff.

=E2=80=9CShoshana Zuboff = meets Margrethe Vestager: A conversation about a future digital = Europe=E2=80=9D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DNOKxAIyPLpo  &n= bsp;=E2=80=94   offset: 30:46 - 35:38
(best = effort transcript, not 100% word-by-word)

=E2=80=94
=E2=80=9CI= n democratic society, public health authorities operate under the rule = of law and they operate under democratic governance. Public health = authorities need to be able to see a large-scale pattern of how the = disease is moving so they can affectively contain it. The erosion of = trust has completely crippled the genuine necessary effort of public = health authority to do their work. The information empire led by = Google and Apple took their unaccountable power without collaboration = with governments, developed their own approach and they gazlighted = this approach. [=E2=80=A6] They create a polemic that says that our app = is the privacy app and what the state is trying to do is to spy on you = and undercut the legitimate need of public health authorities that = operate under democracy, leaving countries like Germany, France, UK just = in a set of intolerable constraints. So here we are: we have allowed = this information empire to own and operate the Internet, to own and = operate the global means of telecommunication,  to own and operate = the infrastructure and to own all of the content. This is = intolerable and incompatible with democracy! We have allowed them to = drive a wedge between citizens and their rightful democratic governance. = This is also intolerable. We have allowed them to cloud the fact = that privacy and solidarity are two sides of the same coin. Privacy is = not private. Privacy is public. Privacy and solidarity go together. =  Without a society that has social solidarity, there is no = rule of law.  Without the rule of law, there is no right to privacy = and there are no other rights. Indeed there are no = individuals. These things are nested together of necessity. We see = the tech companies driving a wedge, and we see our states who have the = best of intentions, in many of these situations, left powerless. = This is intolerable! The COVID backdrop is showing us the road that we = should take. That the state has to clean its own house, the state = has to enact the same charters of rights and laws and institutions to = keep itself the state true to democracy and forfeit the surveillance = state=E2=80=A6 and at the same time create those rights and laws = that oversee the market place and outlaw, interrupt and eliminate = surveillance capitalism which is a new form of economical = authoritarianism that has right now hegemonic influence over = society.=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=94

I think it nicely summarises the situation we=E2=80=99ve seen = in Europe (don=E2=80=99t know for the rest of the world) and it raises = questions 
that are not far from human rights = considerations. And here we are talking about democratic countries like = UK, Germany
and France (BTW the only one which = resisted the Apple/Google pressure), with strong democratic and data = protection laws,
not totalitarian ones.

I also CC PEARG since it's closely related to = Stephen Farrell's talk on Monday about those apps, and because = privacy 
considerations are also = central.

**Disclaimer:** I=E2=80=99m = not neutral on this topic since our Inria PRIVATICS research group = designed the ROBERT protocol
that is at the core of the = French contact tracing app, and the DESIRE protocol that=E2=80=99s based = on a totally different concept
(identify encounters rather = than endpoints). For us DESIRE is a 3rd way approach since it enables to = go beyond the
centralized vs. decentralized duality (i.e., = it enables all of this, seamlessly), with major privacy improvements.
= https://github.com/ROBERT-proximity-tracing/documents
= https://github.com/3rd-ways-for-EU-exposure-notification/projec= t-DESIRE


Cheers,

    =  Vincent

----
Vincent Roca, PhD/HDR, PRIVATICS team leader, Inria research = institute, France
https://privatics.inrialpes.fr/people/roca/

= --Apple-Mail=_2B16A7E0-A1AE-4C6B-AC95-1EA9C2D5633F-- From nobody Fri Jul 31 01:40:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6873A10EE; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 01:40:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l2wFts0b5OgM; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 01:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B1CC3A1056; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 01:40:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14012; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1596184828; x=1597394428; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=5W/nLBsMS8bPoAis737+g1CAAtc7jYOx2QE0pUgHJ8o=; b=ILG87Kpspp+hLKCRuIgHqNA+BzJhmwmE7+IZctJn1z56qXmgUBbO8wgQ 8Ddk+g7gimy7t5JZibIOKya8BUdt3L6tPHyL1PeI7GRnqjcLx+lgBJoci zivLZfFlvJVdP+z2WCoa+8PsMcGkM+qZJuMDrw1o9ZL7n9FF883fTl/Qz 0=; X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B5AADF2CNf/xbLJq1WChoBAQEBAQEBAQEBAwEBAQESA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQICAQEBAYIKgXWBJFQBIBIshDWJAYdyJZN2LYYBgWkBCgEBAQwBARgBC?= =?us-ascii?q?gwEAQGETAKCMSU4EwIDAQEBAwIDAQEBAQUBAQECAQYEbYVcDIVxAQEBAwEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?SFLCwULCxgjBwICJzAGE4MmAYJcIA+vJ3aBMoE7gwABEwMPL0KEfwaBOItvg?= =?us-ascii?q?TiCAIERJwwQgU9QLj6CRRcBAQIXgQwND4M0M4ItBJADimWJXV2QZoJqgwqFU?= =?us-ascii?q?okfiAUDHpFOjimcU5EZg1YCBAYFAhWBaiMsC4EgMxoIGxU7KgGCPj4SGQ1Wj?= =?us-ascii?q?gCDOoE+g1aFRD8DMDcCBgEHAQEDCZBwAQE?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.75,417,1589241600"; d="scan'208,217"; a="25939056" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 31 Jul 2020 08:40:24 +0000 Received: from [10.61.212.32] ([10.61.212.32]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 06V8eNgp000850 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:40:24 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <8692AD73-42CB-4D0B-8366-041CA2051BF0@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4D250F60-1AD5-47ED-94EB-2661917BC811" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 10:40:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, pearg@irtf.org To: Vincent Roca References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.212.32, [10.61.212.32] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Follow-up of Simon McGarr talk on Apps for COVID-19 Tracing: about big tech companies and democracy X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:40:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4D250F60-1AD5-47ED-94EB-2661917BC811 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I apologize for not being able to attend HRPC. Here in Switzerland = there is very good adoption of the COVID-19 tracing app by the general = population (over 1.6 million downloads took place by the end of June, = and we are a country of 8.5 million people). This app is based on = DP-3T[1] which is available on Github. The privacy and regulatory = evaluations are also available on Github. The DP-3T code makes use of = Google=E2=80=99s and Apple=E2=80=99s health privacy interface. What we = do not know is what percentage of sick people will be willing to = indicate in the app that they have been infected. As of late it is = reported that fewer are using the app, but the method to determine this = is somewhat questionable. Eliot [1] https://github.com/DP-3T > On 31 Jul 2020, at 10:09, Vincent Roca wrote: >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > Following the excellent presentation from Simon on =C2=AB Apps for = COVID-19 Tracing An EU Data Rights View =C2=BB, during HRPC 108 > meeting (thank you!), I=E2=80=99d like to share the following record = that so nicely expresses my thoughts, by Shoshana Zuboff. >=20 > =E2=80=9CShoshana Zuboff meets Margrethe Vestager: A conversation = about a future digital Europe=E2=80=9D > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DNOKxAIyPLpo = =E2=80=94 offset: = 30:46 - 35:38 > (best effort transcript, not 100% word-by-word) >=20 > =E2=80=94 > =E2=80=9CIn democratic society, public health authorities operate = under the rule of law and they operate under democratic governance. = Public health authorities need to be able to see a large-scale pattern = of how the disease is moving so they can affectively contain it. The = erosion of trust has completely crippled the genuine necessary effort of = public health authority to do their work. The information empire led by = Google and Apple took their unaccountable power without collaboration = with governments, developed their own approach and they gazlighted this = approach. [=E2=80=A6] They create a polemic that says that our app is = the privacy app and what the state is trying to do is to spy on you and = undercut the legitimate need of public health authorities that operate = under democracy, leaving countries like Germany, France, UK just in a = set of intolerable constraints. So here we are: we have allowed this = information empire to own and operate the Internet, to own and operate = the global means of telecommunication, to own and operate the = infrastructure and to own all of the content. This is intolerable and = incompatible with democracy! We have allowed them to drive a wedge = between citizens and their rightful democratic governance. This is also = intolerable. We have allowed them to cloud the fact that privacy and = solidarity are two sides of the same coin. Privacy is not private. = Privacy is public. Privacy and solidarity go together. Without a = society that has social solidarity, there is no rule of law. Without = the rule of law, there is no right to privacy and there are no other = rights. Indeed there are no individuals. These things are nested = together of necessity. We see the tech companies driving a wedge, and we = see our states who have the best of intentions, in many of these = situations, left powerless. This is intolerable! The COVID backdrop is = showing us the road that we should take. That the state has to clean its = own house, the state has to enact the same charters of rights and laws = and institutions to keep itself the state true to democracy and forfeit = the surveillance state=E2=80=A6 and at the same time create those rights = and laws that oversee the market place and outlaw, interrupt and = eliminate surveillance capitalism which is a new form of economical = authoritarianism that has right now hegemonic influence over society.=E2=80= =9D > =E2=80=94 >=20 > I think it nicely summarises the situation we=E2=80=99ve seen in = Europe (don=E2=80=99t know for the rest of the world) and it raises = questions=20 > that are not far from human rights considerations. And here we are = talking about democratic countries like UK, Germany > and France (BTW the only one which resisted the Apple/Google = pressure), with strong democratic and data protection laws, > not totalitarian ones. >=20 > I also CC PEARG since it's closely related to Stephen Farrell's talk = on Monday about those apps, and because privacy=20 > considerations are also central. >=20 > **Disclaimer:** I=E2=80=99m not neutral on this topic since our Inria = PRIVATICS research group designed the ROBERT protocol > that is at the core of the French contact tracing app, and the DESIRE = protocol that=E2=80=99s based on a totally different concept > (identify encounters rather than endpoints). For us DESIRE is a 3rd = way approach since it enables to go beyond the > centralized vs. decentralized duality (i.e., it enables all of this, = seamlessly), with major privacy improvements. > https://github.com/ROBERT-proximity-tracing/documents = > = https://github.com/3rd-ways-for-EU-exposure-notification/project-DESIRE = >=20 >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Vincent >=20 > ---- > Vincent Roca, PhD/HDR, PRIVATICS team leader, Inria research = institute, France > https://privatics.inrialpes.fr/people/roca/ = >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --Apple-Mail=_4D250F60-1AD5-47ED-94EB-2661917BC811 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = apologize for not being able to attend HRPC.  Here in Switzerland = there is very good adoption of the COVID-19 tracing app by the general = population (over 1.6 million downloads took place by the end of June, = and we are a country of 8.5 million people).  This app is based on = DP-3T[1] which is available on Github.  The privacy and regulatory = evaluations are also available on Github. =  The DP-3T code makes use of Google=E2=80=99s and Apple=E2=80=99s = health privacy interface.  What we do not know is what percentage = of sick people will be willing to indicate in the app that they have = been infected.  As of late it is reported that fewer are using the = app, but the method to determine this is somewhat questionable.

Eliot
[1] https://github.com/DP-3T


On 31 Jul 2020, at 10:09, = Vincent Roca <vincent.roca@inria.fr> wrote:

Dear = all,

Following the excellent presentation = from Simon on =C2=AB Apps for COVID-19 Tracing An EU Data Rights View = =C2=BB, during HRPC 108
meeting (thank = you!), I=E2=80=99d like to share the following record that so = nicely expresses my thoughts, by Shoshana Zuboff.

=E2=80=9CShoshana Zuboff = meets Margrethe Vestager: A conversation about a future digital = Europe=E2=80=9D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DNOKxAIyPLpo  &n= bsp;=E2=80=94   offset: 30:46 - 35:38
(best = effort transcript, not 100% word-by-word)

=E2=80=94
=E2=80=9CI= n democratic society, public health authorities operate under the rule = of law and they operate under democratic governance. Public health = authorities need to be able to see a large-scale pattern of how the = disease is moving so they can affectively contain it. The erosion of = trust has completely crippled the genuine necessary effort of public = health authority to do their work. The information empire led by = Google and Apple took their unaccountable power without collaboration = with governments, developed their own approach and they gazlighted = this approach. [=E2=80=A6] They create a polemic that says that our app = is the privacy app and what the state is trying to do is to spy on you = and undercut the legitimate need of public health authorities that = operate under democracy, leaving countries like Germany, France, UK just = in a set of intolerable constraints. So here we are: we have allowed = this information empire to own and operate the Internet, to own and = operate the global means of telecommunication,  to own and operate = the infrastructure and to own all of the content. This is = intolerable and incompatible with democracy! We have allowed them to = drive a wedge between citizens and their rightful democratic governance. = This is also intolerable. We have allowed them to cloud the fact = that privacy and solidarity are two sides of the same coin. Privacy is = not private. Privacy is public. Privacy and solidarity go together. =  Without a society that has social solidarity, there is no = rule of law.  Without the rule of law, there is no right to privacy = and there are no other rights. Indeed there are no = individuals. These things are nested together of necessity. We see = the tech companies driving a wedge, and we see our states who have the = best of intentions, in many of these situations, left powerless. = This is intolerable! The COVID backdrop is showing us the road that we = should take. That the state has to clean its own house, the state = has to enact the same charters of rights and laws and institutions to = keep itself the state true to democracy and forfeit the surveillance = state=E2=80=A6 and at the same time create those rights and laws = that oversee the market place and outlaw, interrupt and eliminate = surveillance capitalism which is a new form of economical = authoritarianism that has right now hegemonic influence over = society.=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=94

I think it nicely summarises the situation we=E2=80=99ve seen = in Europe (don=E2=80=99t know for the rest of the world) and it raises = questions 
that are not far from human rights = considerations. And here we are talking about democratic countries like = UK, Germany
and France (BTW the only one which = resisted the Apple/Google pressure), with strong democratic and data = protection laws,
not totalitarian ones.

I also CC PEARG since it's closely related to = Stephen Farrell's talk on Monday about those apps, and because = privacy 
considerations are also = central.

**Disclaimer:** I=E2=80=99m = not neutral on this topic since our Inria PRIVATICS research group = designed the ROBERT protocol
that is at the core of the = French contact tracing app, and the DESIRE protocol that=E2=80=99s based = on a totally different concept
(identify encounters rather = than endpoints). For us DESIRE is a 3rd way approach since it enables to = go beyond the
centralized vs. decentralized duality (i.e., = it enables all of this, seamlessly), with major privacy improvements.
= https://github.com/ROBERT-proximity-tracing/documents
= https://github.com/3rd-ways-for-EU-exposure-notification/projec= t-DESIRE


Cheers,

    =  Vincent

----
Vincent Roca, PhD/HDR, PRIVATICS team leader, Inria research = institute, France
https://privatics.inrialpes.fr/people/roca/

_____________________________________________= __
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

= --Apple-Mail=_4D250F60-1AD5-47ED-94EB-2661917BC811-- From nobody Fri Jul 31 02:15:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1A13A0FEE for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 02:15:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3T0VeEEEgly8 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 02:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32E6A3A0F9F for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 02:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1k1R8R-0008RK-II; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:15:28 +0200 To: Shivan Kaul Sahib , Hrpc References: From: Niels ten Oever Autocrypt: addr=mail@nielstenoever.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABtChOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+iQJZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI7kCDQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:15:26 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: f1842a279235a42f6aa2a2a81130733515c5a4ec X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a350ae07b5350cdad28cef237d2e7179 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Draft guidelines: updates vs obsoletes X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 09:15:35 -0000 Hi Shivan, In my humble opinion, draft-guidelines only updates section 6 of RFC8280. We could add this to draft-guidelines. Best, Niels On 7/30/20 11:16 PM, Shivan Kaul Sahib wrote: > Hi all, > > I mentioned in the recent HRPC meeting that I was struggling with how draft-guidelines relates to RFC 8280. After some more thought, I think it would help with my confusion if draft-guidelines was intended to /obsolete/ RFC 8280, instead of merely updating it.  > > "Updated version" (from the abstract) sounds like this document will supersede RFC 8280 and can be used /in place of /it (RFC 2223 , section 12). If it is meant to be an actual update i.e. both documents can be used independently, then I would expect the new document to explicitly mention the text/sections that are updated (I like the idea of having a questionnaire in the Appendix of draft-guidelines btw) > > Thoughts?  > Shivan -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate - DATACTIVE Research Group - University of Amsterdam Postdoctoral Scholar (abd) - Communications Department - Texas A&M University Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European University Viadrina Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas W: https://nielstenoever.net E: mail@nielstenoever.net T: @nielstenoever P/S/WA: +31629051853 PGP: 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Jul 31 03:50:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C1C3A104D; 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Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:50:02 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YllCKl7Rm0yV; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:50:01 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3492DBE1C; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:50:01 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1596192601; bh=eFbH0GtERCG8tIgsYHfLS/5vA4yxTQUVgHa4vVhqPtY=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=COEYHNlO2K41R3Nnqx2bA73YOZXRtg36YRhjQLbLc5vTLkmb94Piuz63OEWtRRk+M lrKam+lHW7bRnObWAwNuUVOqVjA7rwo2Om2bEjOVIwb8Z3bEGkoJ6+LALygxowXUFR 0D2ZtGs81xTdofwp3AGPEOP2B2ZeoVgvE89jdIuo= To: Vincent Roca , hrpc@irtf.org, pearg@irtf.org References: From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <9fc3d956-1841-d403-0f09-fb557bf5ae8e@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:49:59 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ceLEKhJREfdxXMFj9HSv64ATm8AlXWUL7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Follow-up of Simon McGarr talk on Apps for COVID-19 Tracing: about big tech companies and democracy X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 10:50:15 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ceLEKhJREfdxXMFj9HSv64ATm8AlXWUL7 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="dRUMLUbKE4HFUxjFBnaKKFoTZidEwavBB"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Vincent Roca , hrpc@irtf.org, pearg@irtf.org Message-ID: <9fc3d956-1841-d403-0f09-fb557bf5ae8e@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Follow-up of Simon McGarr talk on Apps for COVID-19 Tracing: about big tech companies and democracy References: In-Reply-To: --dRUMLUbKE4HFUxjFBnaKKFoTZidEwavBB Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4B06ECC7B3EDE14D9DD22154" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4B06ECC7B3EDE14D9DD22154 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 31/07/2020 09:09, Vincent Roca wrote: > I also CC PEARG since it's closely related to Stephen Farrell's talk > on Monday about those apps, and because privacy considerations are > also central. Just to note that while I do think some work needs be done on governance related to the GAEN system, I'd not agree with all the quoted text in Vincent's mail - seems a bit OTT to me basically. 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