From nobody Tue Dec 1 01:55:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20D83A0FB0 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 01:55:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD=1.888, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YRIFqfKdOWZl for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 01:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx3.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C5443A0FAF for ; 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Tue, 1 Dec 2020 10:55:06 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 10:55:06 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <985439139.31826.1606816506567@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <20201130174948.GA16449@sources.org> References: <20201130174948.GA16449@sources.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev14 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Protocol design and political goals: the Gemini project X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2020 09:55:18 -0000 > Il 30/11/2020 18:49 Stephane Bortzmeyer ha scritto: > > > This is not an IETF project but it's an interesting project since it > has explicit political goals (distributing information without > tracking, and with the ability to have very simple clients, instead of > humongus Web browwers). > > Creating a protocol where it is *difficult* to add bloat and > surveillance features is not easy. Gemini is *not* extensible and it > is a feature, not a bug. > > Home page : > https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ > > IETFers will certainly prefer to read the specification: > https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/specification.html > > If you want to jump on your keyboard to criticize, I suggest to read > the FAQ first, it may addresses your criticism: > https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.html This is an extremely cool and fascinating idea, thanks for posting it. Basically, it is "could we start again with the Web as if we were in 1995, but making consolidation and targeted advertising impossible from the beginning". However, I think that the set of features is way too limited; I appreciate the reasons exposed in the FAQ, but I started thinking at how to make Wikipedia available over this protocol, and you can't, because you can't have inline links and images, and (according to the FAQ) you can't even extend the protocol to add support for them. Let's not mention Openstreetmap or other community services that could replace the "evil" but unavoidable surveillance capitalism offers. If it can't meet at least the basic ordinary needs of an Internet user, Gemini is likely to remain a protocol for geeks, hackers and underground content, and not have any practical impact :-( -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Tue Dec 1 11:37:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662213A1414 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:37:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1IKqUXm7F9Hq for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtprelay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0096.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D927E3A1458 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 11:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (clb03-v110.bra.tucows.net [216.40.38.60]) by smtprelay05.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB3D18029587 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 19:37:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Session-Marker: 6176726940646F7269612E6F7267 X-Spam-Summary: 50, 0, 0, , d41d8cd98f00b204, avri@acm.org, , RULES_HIT:41:355:379:602:854:960:967:973:988:989:1260:1261:1277:1311:1313:1314:1345:1359:1381:1437:1515:1516:1518:1534:1542:1593:1594:1683:1711:1730:1747:1777:1792:1960:1963:2393:2525:2561:2564:2682:2685:2741:2859:2891:2894:2910:2933:2937:2939:2942:2945:2947:2951:2954:3022:3138:3139:3140:3141:3142:3354:3865:3866:3867:3868:3870:3872:3874:3934:3936:3938:3941:3944:3947:3950:3953:3956:3959:4184:4250:5007:6119:7652:7802:7875:7903:7904:8660:9025:10004:10400:10848:11026:11658:11914:12043:12438:12679:13019:13071:13095:13143:13148:13161:13229:13230:13845:13894:14180:14181:14196:14721:21060:21080:21324:21433:21450:21451:21627:21740:21790:21881:21939:21987:21990:30054:30070, 0, RBL:none, CacheIP:none, Bayesian:0.5, 0.5, 0.5, Netcheck:none, DomainCache:0, MSF:not bulk, SPF:, MSBL:0, DNSBL:none, Custom_rules:0:0:0, LFtime:1, LUA_SUMMARY:none X-HE-Tag: smash90_28038ce273ad X-Filterd-Recvd-Size: 3484 Received: from [10.5.0.2] (unknown [104.140.53.67]) (Authenticated sender: avri@doria.org) by omf13.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 19:37:20 +0000 (UTC) References: To: hrpc@irtf.org Reply-To: avri@acm.org From: avri doria X-Forwarded-Message-Id: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 14:37:18 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Fwd: [] New paper from IGP on Standards and Human Rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2020 19:37:23 -0000 Hi, Possibly interesting to some. avri -------- Forwarded Message -------- IGP releases a new research paper on the politics of the new Transport Layer Security standard: Standardizing Security: Surveillance, Human Rights, and TLS 1.3.   Standardizing Security develops a conceptual framework for understanding the relationship between technical standards and political/social effects. We identify three distinct ways of understanding this relationship: 1) by examining the interest groups who shaped the standard, which we call the Political Economy of Standardization (PES); 2) by focusing on the Societal Effects of Standards (SES) which refers to cumulative effects of adoption and implementation decisions over time; and 3) the idea that politics and rights are embedded in the standard; i.e., that Protocols Have Politics (PHP). We then perform a detailed analysis of the controversies around the design, adoption and implementation of TLS 1.3.   We find that the PHP approach had limited explanatory value compared to the PES and SES approaches. TLS 1.3 does in fact strengthen privacy – and technical efficiency – if adopted and implemented as intended. But the design of TLS 1.3’s stronger confidentiality measures met with resistance from corporate network operators who wanted more visibility into their internal networks and some governmental interests, leading to the development of an alternate standard by ETSI. There are also technical measures that can be deployed to undermine perfect forward secrecy. Additionally, authoritarian governments are now taking measures to block use of the new protocol. TLS 1.3 was an improvement, but its effects were limited.   By conveying the idea that political, economic and social effects can be hard coded into protocol designs, the protocols-have-politics view short-circuits careful analysis of the way standards contribute to governance. It also drastically overstates the role of protocol design in internet governance. Rights advocates and internet governance participants need to have more realistic ideas about what measures advance human rights on the internet.   Download the paper here: https://www.internetgovernance.org/wp-content/uploads/StandardizingSecurity-TLS.pdf   Dr. Milton L Mueller Georgia Institute of Technology School of Public Policy IGP_logo_gold block   From nobody Tue Dec 1 15:13:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993713A0BD7 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 15:13:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FW8Buq_NFlmH for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 15:13:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFD413A0B26 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 15:13:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8560BE47; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 23:13:16 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zNqewQ2wf_Ck; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 23:13:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 978B7BE1C; Tue, 1 Dec 2020 23:13:13 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1606864393; bh=CAIj+Vzu5/Ic6XjanGc328KDL+u8lDNrkIKS00abkUI=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=zTIGRoicoKd6jN/JQQTu4SGGbP65yzyGBoJ3/9KqYpKF6FDhEEtTcwB/aKlyEeGbe 3xfibnPfKVz7CN3o9qKFe92PkVSDdQV2s/0Pzl1srkw2iflsadSA0zLIHLt9b9Pjf7 hhXjsYvEv2dEMig02ltRaI6trhH3iWji1EPono+o= To: avri@acm.org, hrpc@irtf.org References: From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: <404e48b9-08d6-1df1-15bb-a22234bf5133@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 23:13:12 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2R8AwJFNi5RS8xTdMXUJUNyhKG4YCDU18" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: [] New paper from IGP on Standards and Human Rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2020 23:13:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --2R8AwJFNi5RS8xTdMXUJUNyhKG4YCDU18 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="pUnO63pJnaTjndCgheEtDgbMJrUPx8OXy"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: avri@acm.org, hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <404e48b9-08d6-1df1-15bb-a22234bf5133@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: [] New paper from IGP on Standards and Human Rights References: In-Reply-To: --pUnO63pJnaTjndCgheEtDgbMJrUPx8OXy Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4325F14C1C13550976228414" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4325F14C1C13550976228414 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 01/12/2020 19:37, avri doria wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Possibly interesting to some. Had a read. I think it's wrong as to the motivations for TLS1.3 - Snowdonia was IMO only one of those, we had had a long series of documented attacks on TLS so TLS1.3 probably would've happened anyway because of those and the potential RTT improvements. It also ignores the role of academic cryptographers in the process of developing TLS1.3 - their proofs and formal methods and the tools they had for producing those lead to some of the design choices rather than any political anything. There's also a few minor factual errors in the dramatis personnae, and some omissions of relevant players. I suspect those may have been driven by the tools that we have available for re-constructing working group histories post-facto, as talking to people involved in the process should have avoided those. The errors really are minor and of no real impact, but if they are down to the methodology used by the authors, but not described, that's a bit more of interest. I've no opinion as to whether the history backs any of the three theoretical explanatory frameworks or not, but the paper's interesting as an example of a reasonable but imperfect reconstruction of what happened. Cheers, S. >=20 > avri >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------- Forwarded Message -------- >=20 > IGP releases a new research paper on the politics of the new Transport > Layer Security standard: Standardizing Security: Surveillance, Human > Rights, and TLS 1.3. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Standardizing Security develops a conceptual framework for understandin= g > the relationship between technical standards and political/social > effects. We identify three distinct ways of understanding this > relationship: 1) by examining the interest groups who shaped the > standard, which we call the Political Economy of Standardization (PES);= > 2) by focusing on the Societal Effects of Standards (SES) which refers > to cumulative effects of adoption and implementation decisions over > time; and 3) the idea that politics and rights are embedded in the > standard; i.e., that Protocols Have Politics (PHP). We then perform a > detailed analysis of the controversies around the design, adoption and > implementation of TLS 1.3. >=20 > =20 >=20 > We find that the PHP approach had limited explanatory value compared to= > the PES and SES approaches. TLS 1.3 does in fact strengthen privacy =E2= =80=93 > and technical efficiency =E2=80=93 if adopted and implemented as intend= ed. But > the design of TLS 1.3=E2=80=99s stronger confidentiality measures met w= ith > resistance from corporate network operators who wanted more visibility > into their internal networks and some governmental interests, leading t= o > the development of an alternate standard by ETSI. There are also > technical measures that can be deployed to undermine perfect forward > secrecy. Additionally, authoritarian governments are now taking measure= s > to block use of the new protocol. TLS 1.3 was an improvement, but its > effects were limited. >=20 > =20 >=20 > By conveying the idea that political, economic and social effects can b= e > hard coded into protocol designs, the protocols-have-politics view > short-circuits careful analysis of the way standards contribute to > governance. It also drastically overstates the role of protocol design > in internet governance. Rights advocates and internet governance > participants need to have more realistic ideas about what measures > advance human rights on the internet. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Download the paper here: > https://www.internetgovernance.org/wp-content/uploads/StandardizingSecu= rity-TLS.pdf > >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Dr. Milton L Mueller >=20 > Georgia Institute of Technology >=20 > School of Public Policy >=20 > IGP_logo_gold block >=20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --------------4325F14C1C13550976228414 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 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7ufYHkhPL+BXRzTYOhX441URE1e2DGCYPlUvVZwgYBm7Dn7+pkDD/ooqvB8bJpzwnFqz hkfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531SNQiIcLUoCIAsXcBd0POx/Vho14Okz/PLenb25W2RcHuNasBT zxBkO8fB3zictQupXLcZUvD8g6TuzGEDrZ+e1f6bzN+aRZ3PTg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyt5sb0EAzQXN8t8GKRg6JFeLejGJ06KeaV6oKWRN+F3WtPpY0vK2eHb5QzH63FjxirA8F77foJOZ5JBrjcFVE= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4a8a:: with SMTP id h10mr961397qvx.55.1606886601400; Tue, 01 Dec 2020 21:23:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <404e48b9-08d6-1df1-15bb-a22234bf5133@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <404e48b9-08d6-1df1-15bb-a22234bf5133@cs.tcd.ie> From: Corinne Cath Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 08:23:08 +0300 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: avri@acm.org, hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000012249905b574716a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: [] New paper from IGP on Standards and Human Rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2020 05:23:25 -0000 --00000000000012249905b574716a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I also read this paper and have some qualms with the bits that Stephen didn=E2=80=99t speak to, i.e. the 3 part framework. I think some of the work misreads STS approaches to protocol politics and flattens the argument made by scholars who focus on the inherent power dynamics of standardization. I also would have liked to see a more elaborate methods section, such that it becomes clear how the historic construction was done and why the authors decided to do this seemingly without in-depth interviews with the individuals involved. Lastly, it=E2=80=99s good to note that this paper has not been peer reviewe= d yet. Going through that process would, as with I-Ds, would probably help straighten out some of the folds identified on this thread. Kind regards, Corinne On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 at 02:13, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 01/12/2020 19:37, avri doria wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Possibly interesting to some. > > Had a read. I think it's wrong as to the motivations > for TLS1.3 - Snowdonia was IMO only one of those, we > had had a long series of documented attacks on TLS > so TLS1.3 probably would've happened anyway because > of those and the potential RTT improvements. It also > ignores the role of academic cryptographers in the > process of developing TLS1.3 - their proofs and > formal methods and the tools they had for producing > those lead to some of the design choices rather than > any political anything. > > There's also a few minor factual errors in the dramatis > personnae, and some omissions of relevant players. > I suspect those may have been driven by the tools that > we have available for re-constructing working group > histories post-facto, as talking to people involved in > the process should have avoided those. The errors > really are minor and of no real impact, but if they > are down to the methodology used by the authors, but > not described, that's a bit more of interest. > > I've no opinion as to whether the history backs any > of the three theoretical explanatory frameworks or > not, but the paper's interesting as an example of a > reasonable but imperfect reconstruction of what > happened. > > Cheers, > S. > > > > > avri > > > > > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > > > IGP releases a new research paper on the politics of the new Transport > > Layer Security standard: Standardizing Security: Surveillance, Human > > Rights, and TLS 1.3. > > > > > > > > Standardizing Security develops a conceptual framework for understandin= g > > the relationship between technical standards and political/social > > effects. We identify three distinct ways of understanding this > > relationship: 1) by examining the interest groups who shaped the > > standard, which we call the Political Economy of Standardization (PES); > > 2) by focusing on the Societal Effects of Standards (SES) which refers > > to cumulative effects of adoption and implementation decisions over > > time; and 3) the idea that politics and rights are embedded in the > > standard; i.e., that Protocols Have Politics (PHP). We then perform a > > detailed analysis of the controversies around the design, adoption and > > implementation of TLS 1.3. > > > > > > > > We find that the PHP approach had limited explanatory value compared to > > the PES and SES approaches. TLS 1.3 does in fact strengthen privacy =E2= =80=93 > > and technical efficiency =E2=80=93 if adopted and implemented as intend= ed. But > > the design of TLS 1.3=E2=80=99s stronger confidentiality measures met w= ith > > resistance from corporate network operators who wanted more visibility > > into their internal networks and some governmental interests, leading t= o > > the development of an alternate standard by ETSI. There are also > > technical measures that can be deployed to undermine perfect forward > > secrecy. Additionally, authoritarian governments are now taking measure= s > > to block use of the new protocol. TLS 1.3 was an improvement, but its > > effects were limited. > > > > > > > > By conveying the idea that political, economic and social effects can b= e > > hard coded into protocol designs, the protocols-have-politics view > > short-circuits careful analysis of the way standards contribute to > > governance. It also drastically overstates the role of protocol design > > in internet governance. Rights advocates and internet governance > > participants need to have more realistic ideas about what measures > > advance human rights on the internet. > > > > > > > > Download the paper here: > > > https://www.internetgovernance.org/wp-content/uploads/StandardizingSecuri= ty-TLS.pdf > > < > https://www.internetgovernance.org/wp-content/uploads/StandardizingSecuri= ty-TLS.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Milton L Mueller > > > > Georgia Institute of Technology > > > > School of Public Policy > > > > IGP_logo_gold block > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --=20 Corinne Cath - Speth Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnecath@gmail.com Twitter: @C_CS --00000000000012249905b574716a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I = also read this paper and have some qualms with the bits that Stephen didn= =E2=80=99t speak to, i.e. the 3 part framework.=C2=A0

I think some of the work misreads STS approac= hes to protocol politics and flattens the argument made by scholars who foc= us on the inherent power dynamics of standardization.

I also would have liked to see a more elabora= te methods section, such that it becomes clear how the historic constructio= n was done and why the authors decided to do this seemingly without in-dept= h interviews with the individuals involved.

Lastly, it=E2=80=99s good to note that this paper has n= ot been peer reviewed yet. Going through that process would, as with I-Ds, = would probably help straighten out some of the folds identified on this thr= ead.

Kind regards,
=

Corinne=C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Wed, 2 D= ec 2020 at 02:13, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
=
Hiya,

On 01/12/2020 19:37, avri doria wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Possibly interesting to some.

Had a read. I think it's wrong as to the motivations
for TLS1.3 - Snowdonia was IMO only one of those, we
had had a long series of documented attacks on TLS
so TLS1.3 probably would've happened anyway because
of those and the potential RTT improvements. It also
ignores the role of academic cryptographers in the
process of developing TLS1.3 - their proofs and
formal methods and the tools they had for producing
those lead to some of the design choices rather than
any political anything.

There's also a few minor factual errors in the dramatis
personnae, and some omissions of relevant players.
I suspect those may have been driven by the tools that
we have available for re-constructing working group
histories post-facto, as talking to people involved in
the process should have avoided those. The errors
really are minor and of no real impact, but if they
are down to the methodology used by the authors, but
not described, that's a bit more of interest.

I've no opinion as to whether the history backs any
of the three theoretical explanatory frameworks or
not, but the paper's interesting as an example of a
reasonable but imperfect reconstruction of what
happened.

Cheers,
S.

>
> avri
>
>
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>
> IGP releases a new research paper on the politics of the new Transport=
> Layer Security standard: Standardizing Security: Surveillance, Human > Rights, and TLS 1.3.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
> Standardizing Security develops a conceptual framework for understandi= ng
> the relationship between technical standards and political/social
> effects. We identify three distinct ways of understanding this
> relationship: 1) by examining the interest groups who shaped the
> standard, which we call the Political Economy of Standardization (PES)= ;
> 2) by focusing on the Societal Effects of Standards (SES) which refers=
> to cumulative effects of adoption and implementation decisions over > time; and 3) the idea that politics and rights are embedded in the
> standard; i.e., that Protocols Have Politics (PHP). We then perform a<= br> > detailed analysis of the controversies around the design, adoption and=
> implementation of TLS 1.3.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
> We find that the PHP approach had limited explanatory value compared t= o
> the PES and SES approaches. TLS 1.3 does in fact strengthen privacy = =E2=80=93
> and technical efficiency =E2=80=93 if adopted and implemented as inten= ded. But
> the design of TLS 1.3=E2=80=99s stronger confidentiality measures met = with
> resistance from corporate network operators who wanted more visibility=
> into their internal networks and some governmental interests, leading = to
> the development of an alternate standard by ETSI. There are also
> technical measures that can be deployed to undermine perfect forward > secrecy. Additionally, authoritarian governments are now taking measur= es
> to block use of the new protocol. TLS 1.3 was an improvement, but its<= br> > effects were limited.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
> By conveying the idea that political, economic and social effects can = be
> hard coded into protocol designs, the protocols-have-politics view
> short-circuits careful analysis of the way standards contribute to
> governance. It also drastically overstates the role of protocol design=
> in internet governance. Rights advocates and internet governance
> participants need to have more realistic ideas about what measures
> advance human rights on the internet.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
> Download the paper here:
> https://www.= internetgovernance.org/wp-content/uploads/StandardizingSecurity-TLS.pdf=
> <https://= www.internetgovernance.org/wp-content/uploads/StandardizingSecurity-TLS.pdf= >
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
> Dr. Milton L Mueller
>
> Georgia Institute of Technology
>
> School of Public Policy
>
> IGP_logo_gold block
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
> _______________________________________________
> hrpc mailing list
> hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>
_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
--
<= div>
Corinne Cath - Speth
Ph.D. Candidate, Oxford= Internet Institute & Alan Turing Institute

Web: www.oii.ox.ac.uk/people/corinne-cath
Email: ccath@turing.ac.uk & corinnec= ath@gmail.com
Twitter: @C_CS
--00000000000012249905b574716a-- From nobody Thu Dec 10 04:51:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3814B3A0DC1 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 04:51:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uZA86c4wsQeu for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 04:51:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.gn.apc.org (mail.gn.apc.org [37.220.108.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 850473A0816 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 04:51:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.gn.apc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F10203917C for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:51:29 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mail.gn.apc.org Received: from mail.gn.apc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.gn.apc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dn4bQ3fZnRwA; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:51:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from anonymous ([10.254.254.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: avri) by mail.gn.apc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AD12420391E0; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:51:24 +0000 (GMT) From: avri doria To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <18f91a2a-8e6b-79d6-2ba7-b6284a988298@apc.org> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 07:51:24 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Last Call on draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines till 3 Jan 2021 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:51:34 -0000 Hi, As discussed during our remote meeting on 16 November, we have decided that  "Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol and Architecture Considerations" is ready for a Research Group Last Call.  While the RGLC would normally be set for 2 weeks, but because of the holiday have decided that this one will last a little longer - until 3 Jan 2021. The process for publishing IRTF stream documents can be found in RFC 5743. This is the first step: "review by RG for editorial and technical quality." Please send your comments to: hrpc@irtf.org Please forward this call to anyone you think should consider reviewing this doc. Details on the draft: Title : Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol and Architecture Considerations Authors : Gurshabad Grover Niels ten Oever Filename : draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-05.txt Pages : 30 Date : 2020-11-02 Abstract: This document sets guidelines for human rights considerations in networking protocols, similar to the work done on the guidelines for privacy considerations [RFC6973]. This is an updated version of the guidelines for human rights considerations in [RFC8280]. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-05 Thanks avri From nobody Thu Dec 10 07:55:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8313A1018; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 07:54:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: irtf-chair@irtf.org, hrpc@irtf.org, hrpc-chairs@ietf.org, mknodel@cdt.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.23.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <160761569783.8854.15296646985814952175@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 07:54:57 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] hrpc - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 110 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: hrpc discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 15:54:58 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Mallory Knodel, a Chair of the hrpc working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Area Name: IRTF Session Requester: Mallory Knodel Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: dprive gaia irtfopen pearg Technology Overlap: mls regext Key Participant Conflict: dnsop People who must be present: Avri Doria Mallory Knodel Resources Requested: Special Requests: ---------------------------------------------------------